Post-Debate Thoughts

Can you “win” a debate by lying?
Politics • Views: 26,080

Obviously, the pundit classes have declared Mitt Romney the winner of last night’s debate. But as people go over exactly what Romney said, the number of flat out lies he told is beginning to sink in.

I know when I was on the debate team in high school, we would have lost points for telling deliberate lies and misstating facts. But then, nobody expects presidential candidates to be held to the same high standard as high school students.

I’m bucking the trend here, I know, but I didn’t see this as a “win” for Romney at all. I saw it as another glaring example of what a lying weasel the man is. If I fault Obama for anything, it’s his failure to directly confront these lies; I have a feeling even the President may have been a little taken aback by the sheer audacity of Mitt’s mendacity.

There are already quite a few articles pointing out the numerous liberties Romney took with the truth, but three huge examples stood out to me:

1) His claim that half of all stimulus-funded green companies had gone out of business. The actual number is less than one percent. That’s not just a small fib, it’s a gigantic lie, told with conviction.

And today the Romney campaign is admitting it was false:

2) His sudden amazing claim that he does not intend to give tax cuts to the wealthy. The non-partisan Tax Policy Center analyzed Romney’s plan and concluded that the only way to make his “revenue neutrality” numbers add up would be to posit a large tax increase for the middle class — leading to big tax decreases for those making more than $200,000 a year.

3) This jaw-dropping statement: “I like coal. I’m gonna make sure we can continue to burn clean coal.”

How can we “continue” doing something that does not exist? The fact is that “clean coal” is a myth. The technologies that would make it possible to burn coal without emitting carbon into the atmosphere do not exist at the present time, and may never exist. Coal is (and remains) one of the most environmentally damaging and unhealthy sources of power the human race has, and not a single factory or power plant anywhere in the entire world is “burning clean coal.”

Yet Mitt Romney wants to “continue” doing it.

Maybe it’s my old school debate training, but I don’t think it’s right to say that a blatant liar “won” that debate. If we were going solely by appearances and presentation, I might agree that Romney came off slightly better than Obama.

But debates are supposed to be about facts, and getting at the truth. By that measure, Mitt Romney is a big loser.

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238 comments
1 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 9:56:59am

There you go again, making excuses, when it's obvious that Obama was just out-played. He's certainly not fit to be president if he can't win the debates overwhelmingly.

2 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 9:59:54am

Romney used a set of specific tactics, mainly lying about things Obama did and misrepresenting his own positions.

That tactic has a downside. Many of the things he claimed are being discussed as not true. I think that this actually matters to quite a lot of people.

In the aftermath of the debate, the attention and focus is on Romney, not on Obama. He can possibly capitalize on that, but I think he and his staff are going to be spending a lot of time 'clarifying' and sap any momentum.

3 SpaceJesus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 9:59:55am

big bird

4 kirkspencer  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:00:24am

Said it last thread, will repeat it here.

In presidential debates, the person who is behind wins if he persuades (enough) people to change their upcoming vote. Otherwise the other person wins.

Romney, behind, did not change anybody's mind. He may have been shinier and a better performer, but he lost.

==edited to add: And THIS

5 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:00:42am

You're making excuses. //

6 DelusionDeluge  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:02:43am

Obama just has a frustrating inability to defend himself and his record. Bill Clinton would have wiped the floor with Romney last night.

7 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:03:24am

I see your point and I agree, but a lot of the people watching these debates unfortunately are not going to bother reading the "fact check" sites.

The president's team did him a great disservice in planning to play it so safe. I get that he had more to lose than gain by being a bit more aggressive, but they calibrated incorrectly.

Now "winning" this debate doesn't mean much, there's 2 more and it's debatable how much the debates sway the vote ... so the panic on the Dem side needs to calm down a bit.

If anything, this should get the president fired up. I know it's hard to debate against a guy that makes up all his facts, but that means you have to go in with more facts of your own and stand by them. Show more passion, expose Mitt for the liar and the danger he presents.

8 A Mom Anon  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:03:53am

AKA Mitt didn't win shit. I watched about 5 mins of teevee this morning and couldn't take it anymore. Even my husband,who didn't pay attention to the debates called me from work;"all the pundits and morning radio shows call it a win for Mitt".Gag. He only "won"because there wasn't time to unpack the giant,oozing, steaming pustule of lies he left on that stage.

9 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:03:58am
10 mr.fusion  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:04:20am

It is real damn easy to win a debate when you don't give a crap about being honest or truthful

That being said.....Mitt won. And he doesn't give a crap about being honest or truthful. But he still won the debate

I mean, the guy went full on death panel and the President didn't call him out on that. He flat out lied about his plans......he said Ryan's plan wasn't his but he picked the guy to be his running mate and said he'd sign the plan if it came to his desk

I could go on and on. He lied and lied and lied and lied but I don't think it matters in the context of who "won" or "lost" last night

11 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:06:11am

re: #9 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

I think the ads that have Mitt saying one thing at the debates and saying one thing to more right audiences are coming.

12 OhNoZombies!  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:06:13am

As much as Mitt changes positions, maybe the Obama team had to diagnose the disease before they could prescribe the cure.

Even Dr. House fucked up in the first half hour of the show.

13 Mattand  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:06:32am
But debates are supposed to be about facts, and getting at the truth. By that measure, Mitt Romney is a big loser.

You need to factor in that these debates took place in a country where almost half of the "grown-ups" think evolution is a lie.

There's a lot of things to be proud of about America, but critical thought ain't one of them.

14 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:07:02am

You're hardly alone in saying that Obama won, but you're in the minority among the pundit class.

I didn't watch, so I don't know how it unfolded, but reading through the transcript and fact checking shows that Romney lied, dissembled, and otherwise misrepresented his positions far more than one could ever reasonably be expected in a debate (where one assumes that there will be lying, distortions, etc.).

15 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:08:07am

Interesting reporting on NPR w/r/t a focus group watching the debate.

Favorability ratings for Obama went up when he was speaking.
Favoriability ratings for Romney went down when he was speaking (attacking Obama).
Yet overall, they rated Romney as winning the debate.

16 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:08:32am

re: #4 kirkspencer

Said it last thread, will repeat it here.

In presidential debates, the person who is behind wins if he persuades (enough) people to change their upcoming vote. Otherwise the other person wins.

Romney, behind, did not change anybody's mind. He may have been shinier and a better performer, but he lost.

==edited to add: And THIS

Repeated for truth. This is the only real takeaway - can anyone conclude that Romney peeled off the undecideds to break to his side in numbers that can overcome his lagging in the polls before the debate?

17 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:08:49am

I think it's a lie too far too soon. There are two debates left to debunk and deflate, and it's now possible to put Mitt back on his heels the rest of the campaign. He'll either have to say stuff that disengages his base, or go the full tea party route.

18 Bulworth  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:09:21am
Even Dr. House fucked up in the first half hour of the show.

That is a win reverend mother...

19 Big Steve  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:10:13am

That anyone thinks these are debates is laughable. These events are opportunities for each candidate to connect with voters and hopefully sway votes from the other guy to them. In the 50 years of Presidential debates rarely does the person with the "debaters points" truly get any help in the election. There is no doubt President Obama opened the door to Mitt Romney last night. How much, probably not that much. This election is still Obama's to lose.

20 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:11:54am

re: #12 Reverend Mother Ramallo

House nearly killed every single patient that came through the door and miraculously found the cure/rationale for treatment with 5 minutes to spare. It was the same recipe for nearly every episode throughout the run of the show. Watch how House prescribes treatment after treatment that doesn't work, or worse, makes the patient sicker, and then by reason of ruling out all other possibilities, coming to a cure.

21 Bulworth  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:12:21am

Is the next prez debate (not VP debate) on foreign policy? If so, that's an opportunity for O to shine, but the bad news is, if this was supposed to be the economic or domestic policy debate, this was the most important one in today's climate. Anybody know what the third debate is supposed to be centered on? Or is the third debate a more general debate?

22 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:13:04am

re: #21 Bulworth

Is the next prez debate (not VP debate) on foreign policy? If so, that's an opportunity for O to shine, but the bad news is, if this was supposed to be the economic or domestic policy debate, this was the most important one in today's climate. Anybody know what the third debate is supposed to be centered on? Or is the third debate a more general debate?

More general, but in a town hall format.

24 Lidane  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:15:58am
25 Big Steve  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:16:03am

re: #21 Bulworth

Is the next prez debate (not VP debate) on foreign policy? If so, that's an opportunity for O to shine, but the bad news is, if this was supposed to be the economic or domestic policy debate, this was the most important one in today's climate. Anybody know what the third debate is supposed to be centered on? Or is the third debate a more general debate?

Next one is both Foreign and domestic and the third one is strictly foreign policy.

26 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:16:27am

The part that really gets my goat is how every news articles and opinion piece I read claims that Romney's arguments last night were "detailed" or "substantive." Were these people watching the same debate we were? All I saw was Romney denying that he was for any of the things he has been campaigning on and spouting a lot of vague "feel good" lines about his *plans.*

/*Details to come, after the election of course.*

27 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:16:40am

Just remember: Mitt's not going to increase your taxes, he's just going to take away deductions and loopholes..... and when he says "just the wealthy" remember that corporations are people in his book, very wealthy people and remember that part of your compensation is usually your insurance plan. When he says this shit think "Payroll" .... deductions.

28 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:16:55am

re: #23 Gus

Obama: ‘Thank Goodness Somebody Is Finally Getting Tough On Big Bird’

Heh. Really though, I liked the tweet I've seen going around from Neil DeGrasse Tyson likening cutting PBS to deleting notepad documents from your huge 500 GB C drive. The Sesame Street mocking is being called a "distraction" but Mitt shouldn't have used something as miniscule as PBS is on the budget to cite what he would cut. It just cries out for mocking. Like Mondale being stupid enough politically to admit he'd raise taxes.

29 Bulworth  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:17:25am
Next one is both Foreign and domestic and the third one is strictly foreign policy.

Thank you. Interesting sequence of debate topics.

30 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:18:05am

I just about lost it when Mitt repeated the "$716 million slashed from Medicare" TWICE and Obama didn't slap him up side the head and yell "I had enough of yo lies, fool!"

31 tomg51spence  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:18:13am

Hurry up VP debate
There are people early voting right now.

32 blueraven  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:18:22am

Good grief...Gallup has Obama job approval up by 12 points today
54/42

I know this is pre-debate survey but still, talk about contradiction

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

33 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:18:48am

re: #23 Gus

Don't forget Elmo.

34 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:19:14am

re: #32 blueraven

Good grief...Gallup has Obama job approval up by 12 points today
54/42

I know this is pre-debate survey but still, talk about contradiction

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

Job approval up, unemployment down. But that's just a distraction.

//

35 A Mom Anon  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:19:14am

Why is it that when the GOP goes after budget cuts it's always the tiny(dollar wise in the bigger picture) stuff,like PBS,or cutting teachers and public service jobs? PBS is what,a tenth of a percent of the overall budget? Food Stamps,isn't that like a couple percent? Most of which ends up back in the economy? Even if all their little caviar wishes came true and they cut everything they bitch about,how much would they actually save the taxpayers they claim they give a rat's ass about?

36 SpaceJesus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:20:56am

Biden needs to come to the VP debate wearing a Big Bird tie

37 SpaceJesus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:21:07am

completely serious

38 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:21:07am

re: #35 A Mom Anon

Why is it that when the GOP goes after budget cuts it's always the tiny(dollar wise in the bigger picture) stuff,like PBS,or cutting teachers and public service jobs? PBS is what,a tenth of a percent of the overall budget? Food Stamps,isn't that like a couple percent? Most of which ends up back in the economy? Even if all their little caviar wishes came true and they cut everything they bitch about,how much would they actually save the taxpayers they claim they give a rat's ass about?

Because coming out and saying "I'm gonna gut social programs" doesn't tend to sell well.

39 Bulworth  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:21:09am
Job approval up, unemployment down. But that's just a distraction.

Stock market also up again, comfortably above 13000. I know not tied directly to prez policies, but a good barometer. I hope.

40 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:21:24am

re: #35 A Mom Anon

Why is it that when the GOP goes after budget cuts it's always the tiny(dollar wise in the bigger picture) stuff,like PBS,or cutting teachers and public service jobs? PBS is what,a tenth of a percent of the overall budget? Food Stamps,isn't that like a couple percent? Most of which ends up back in the economy? Even if all their little caviar wishes came true and they cut everything they bitch about,how much would they actually save the taxpayers they claim they give a rat's ass about?

That's a great question. One I would love to see Romney answer. Really, why PBS? Which only accounts for a small percentage of the debt and has helped thousands of American children learn and want to learn?

41 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:21:24am

re: #35 A Mom Anon

Why is it that when the GOP goes after budget cuts it's always the tiny(dollar wise in the bigger picture) stuff,like PBS,or cutting teachers and public service jobs? PBS is what,a tenth of a percent of the overall budget? Food Stamps,isn't that like a couple percent? Most of which ends up back in the economy? Even if all their little caviar wishes came true and they cut everything they bitch about,how much would they actually save the taxpayers they claim they give a rat's ass about?

Just think how much money the government could save if they sent the fucking Waltons a bill for all the food stamps and government assistance that is given to Wal-Mart employees.

42 blueraven  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:21:34am

re: #34 Targetpractice

Job approval up, unemployment down. But that's just a distraction.

//

Well, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in Gallup numbers. They are just too erratic for me.

We will have to see what the jobs report says tomorrow.

43 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:21:50am

Trust - Obama for America TV Ad

Youtube Video
44 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:22:07am

re: #32 blueraven

Good grief...Gallup has Obama job approval up by 12 points today
54/42

I know this is pre-debate survey but still, talk about contradiction

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

That makes the "poll" CNN do look all the more worse. Seriously.

45 mr.fusion  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:22:39am

re: #30 Sheila Broflovski

I just about lost it when Mitt repeated the "$716 million slashed from Medicare" TWICE and Obama didn't slap him up side the head and yell "I had enough of yo lies, fool!"

For me it was that, the death panels, and the fact that the phrase "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt" was not said once. Not freaking once.

Honestly, not spending 10 minutes on the auto rescue was a huge loss for Obama

46 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:22:57am

re: #43 Gus

Trust - Obama for America TV Ad

[Embedded content]

God, they were on that quickly.

47 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:23:23am

re: #28 HappyWarrior

Heh. Really though, I liked the tweet I've seen going around from Neil DeGrasse Tyson likening cutting PBS to deleting notepad documents from your huge 500 GB C drive. The Sesame Street mocking is being called a "distraction" but Mitt shouldn't have used something as miniscule as PBS is on the budget to cite what he would cut. It just cries out for mocking. Like Mondale being stupid enough politically to admit he'd raise taxes.

That was nothing but pandering to the loony right wing again. PBS has been a right wing target for decades.

Several of Mitt's talking points were taken directly from the wingnut fever swamp. He even brought up Sarah Palin's "death panel" stupidity, without calling it that.

48 erik_t  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:23:23am

re: #46 HappyWarrior

God, they were on that quickly.

Obama may have off nights, but make no mistake about his campaign staff. They're an unholy terror.

49 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:23:57am

re: #42 blueraven

Well, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in Gallup numbers. They are just too erratic for me.

We will have to see what the jobs report says tomorrow.

I think we all know that, if the UE report mirrors Gallup and drops to 7.9%, there's gonna be squealing from the usual suspects that it's all lies.

50 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:24:15am

re: #47 Charles Johnson

That was nothing but pandering to the loony right wing again. PBS has been a right wing target for decades.

Several of Mitt's talking points were taken directly from the wingnut fever swamp. He even brought up Sarah Palin's "death panel" stupidity, without calling it that.

Yeah I know.

51 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:24:25am

Next debate Romney will unveil his new "plan" to eliminate taxes altogether and send every living American a check for one million dollars while claiming that It will be deficit neutral. How? Because he has a plan...that's how.

52 nines09  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:24:38am

Headline you'll never see. "Romney Lies Ass Off, Wins Round One."

53 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:24:44am

re: #48 erik_t

Obama may have off nights, but make no mistake about his campaign staff. They're an unholy terror.

I'm just impressed that they put it together that quickly.

54 MichaelJ  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:24:47am

I expect in a debate that there will be distortions, fact-stretching and misrepresentation, but I expect those things to at least have a basis in fact. I think Obama was a bit shocked by the sheer audacity of Mitt's comments. How do you engage in an intelligent, reasoned debate when your opponent simply switches positions and denies his own words as he sees fit and does so with conviction and panache? People are judging this debate based on who came across with better verve and personality. Should we really be judging the words of a man who wishes to occupy the most powerful position in the free world by reality TV standards? I find this mindset absolutely appalling.

55 tomg51spence  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:25:30am

re: #45 mr.fusion

Honestly, not spending 10 minutes on the auto rescue was a huge loss for Obama

He should have after the "picking losers" quote

56 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:25:35am

Romney's ended up like McCain four years ago, debating himself as well as his opponent. That's what happens when you have to pander to a base of nutjobs to win.

57 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:26:43am

re: #46 HappyWarrior

God, they were on that quickly.

Mitt Romney's Debate Performance: "Mostly Fiction"

Youtube Video
58 jaunte  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:27:01am
59 Bulworth  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:27:50am

And yet, even after romneybot has a good night, they're STILL offering up John Fcking Sununu as a spokesman on teevee. Sheesh.

60 Mattand  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:28:42am

re: #52 nines09

Headline you'll never see. "Romney Lies Ass Off, Wins Round One."

Give the Onion some time.

61 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:29:00am

re: #45 mr.fusion

For me it was that, the death panels, and the fact that the phrase "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt" was not said once. Not freaking once.

Honestly, not spending 10 minutes on the auto rescue was a huge loss for Obama

He did mention "the auto industry" in his opening remarks. But nothing was said about the 47%.

62 Kronocide  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:29:22am

Romney's American Ayn Rand Idol Gish Gallup does not a debate winner make.

But I'm disappointed Obama didn't challenge some of his bigger lies. I wonder if they're planning on a Biden Attack Dog strategy to compensate.

I think part of it is Obama is soft because he's pretty far ahead. But he's not that far ahead to where he can go soft.

63 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:29:23am

re: #57 Gus

Mitt Romney's Debate Performance: "Mostly Fiction"

[Embedded content]

People are going to see ads like the ones you've linked more than the talking heads talking about how "Romney won."

64 Lidane  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:31:10am

re: #35 A Mom Anon

Why is it that when the GOP goes after budget cuts it's always the tiny(dollar wise in the bigger picture) stuff,like PBS,or cutting teachers and public service jobs?

Because their wingnut base thinks of things like PBS as ZOMG SOSHULISM that needs to be stamped out. And they're stupid enough to think that PBS and NPR take a much larger slice of the pie than they do.

You know, because if we didn't waste all that 0.012% on Big Bird, we'd have more money for our suffering defense contractors and oil companies who are barely getting by.

65 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:32:00am

re: #63 HappyWarrior

People are going to see ads like the ones you've linked more than the talking heads talking about how "Romney won."

I still wonder if the whole things wasn't inadvertent rope a dope or perhaps purposeful. Remember when Ryan told so many lies during his acceptance speech that it became the story?

I think with the add and the follow up, Romney is going to find out that he was given enough rope to hang himself.

66 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:32:27am

I'm really starting to think after seeing these ads and seeing some of Obama's post debate stump that there was a method to the madness. Not what I would have done but we'll see how it works out.

67 leftynyc  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:32:41am

Romney already admitting he lied. From Think Progress:

Fact checkers — including this blog — quickly pounced on the claim, explaining that only a tiny percentage of firms that received grants or loans from the Recovery Act have actually filed for bankruptcy. And now, the Romney campaign itself is walking back the GOP presidential candidate’s claim. From Michael Grunwald, author of The New New Deal: The Hidden History of Change in the Obama Era:


Michael Grunwald
@MikeGrunwald ICYMI: Romney camp told me (after my tweet-rants) Mitt didn't mean to say half the #stimulus-funded green firms failed. Probably

68 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:32:57am

RomneyTaxWealthy

Youtube Video
69 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:33:58am

re: #65 Mr. Crankypants

I still wonder if the whole things wasn't inadvertent rope a dope or perhaps purposeful. Remember when Ryan told so many lies during his acceptance speech that it became the story?

I think with the add and the follow up, Romney is going to find out that he was given enough rope to hang himself.

I'm really starting to think that was a possibility. People are already skeptical of Romney and if they are able to effectively communicate that he lied his ass off last night through effective ads and strong stump speeches than Romney's "debate victory" seems awfully Pyrrhic to me.

70 Lidane  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:34:40am

re: #46 HappyWarrior

God, they were on that quickly.

They got enough material last night to cut their next dozen ads, easy. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw new ads daily for a while, each with a new lie from the debate.

71 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:34:53am

I remember when this guy used to actually be funny. When did he totally lose his shit?

72 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:35:15am

re: #43 Gus

Trust - Obama for America TV Ad

[Embedded content]

I get the feeling this is the first in a series.

73 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:35:51am

re: #71 Sheila Broflovski

I remember when this guy used to actually be funny. When did he totally lose his shit?

[Embedded content]

During the Great Flouncing, I think.

74 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:36:02am

re: #47 Charles Johnson

That was nothing but pandering to the loony right wing again. PBS has been a right wing target for decades.

Several of Mitt's talking points were taken directly from the wingnut fever swamp. He even brought up Sarah Palin's "death panel" stupidity, without calling it that.

Mentioned the 10th Amendment at least once, too.

75 thecommodore  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:36:20am

Anyone, even a transparent liar like Romney, can win a denate when his opponent doean't show up, and Obama simply did not show up last night. This does, as a commenter suggested, present an opportunity for Obama to correct the record in ads, to do so powerfully using Romney speaking his own words, as he did in the 47% ad, which I think is the runaway choice for best ad in this cycle.

It is important for him to do it onstage though. I think it's very possible Romney could be lulled into false confidence by what happened last nigjt, and continue doing what he did, because then Obama could destroy him.

But again, that can't happen if Obama doesn't show up. I know I'm belaboring this point, but I'm worriwd about that. To me, he was Lebron James in Game 5 of the 2010 Eastern Conferwnce Seminfinals betqeeen Cleveland and Boston. It was like he wasn'teven on rhe court and Cleveland lost by 32 points.

76 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:36:27am

re: #35 A Mom Anon

Why is it that when the GOP goes after budget cuts it's always the tiny(dollar wise in the bigger picture) stuff,like PBS,or cutting teachers and public service jobs? PBS is what,a tenth of a percent of the overall budget? Food Stamps,isn't that like a couple percent? Most of which ends up back in the economy? Even if all their little caviar wishes came true and they cut everything they bitch about,how much would they actually save the taxpayers they claim they give a rat's ass about?

Yep, slashing $46 Million makes them fiscally righteous on the budget but the dems wanting to slash $500 Billion in subsidies is just a drop in the bucket that won't help. Fucking idiots.

77 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:36:38am

re: #71 Sheila Broflovski

I remember when this guy used to actually be funny. When did he totally lose his shit?

[Embedded content]

Or it could be that liberals think it's hilarious that Romney's using Big Bird as what he thinks seriously needs to be cut from the deficit. As Degrasse Tyson said, this is cutting those notepad documents from your C Drive and thinking you're fixing your storage room. You are but you're doing shit little.

78 OhNoZombies!  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:37:27am

re: #75 thecommodore

Anyone, even a transparent liar like Romney, can win a denate when his opponent doean't show up, and Obama simply did not show up last night. This does, as a commenter suggested, present an opportunity for Obama to correct the record in ads, to do so powerfully using Romney speaking his own words, as he did in the 47% ad, which I think is the runaway choice for best ad in this cycle.

It is important for him to do it onstage though. I think it's very possible Romney could be lulled into false confidence by what happened last nigjt, and continue doing what he did, because then Obama could destroy him.

But again, that can't happen if Obama doesn't show up. I know I'm belaboring this point, but I'm worriwd about that. To me, he was Lebron James in Game 5 of the 2010 Eastern Conferwnce Seminfinals betqeeen Cleveland and Boston. It was like he wasn'teven on rhe court and Cleveland lost by 32 points.

Funny, I thought of LeBron too...

79 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:37:48am

Wow is she dumb

80 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:40:09am
81 Lidane  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:43:14am

"Affirmative action hire!"

82 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:44:44am

And now it really begins:

First new ad out today in swing states, this one focusing on "No I'm not going to cut $5 trillion in taxes!!"

83 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:44:49am

re: #81 Lidane

[Embedded content]

That's rich coming from a college dropout. Why doesn't Rush just move to Costa Rica like he promised us he would? Oh cross that, I hear the Costa Ricans are lovely people, they don't deserve that ass in their country.

84 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:45:29am

re: #81 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Wait, how does Rush know that Obama received A's? Has he seen the college transcripts that the wingnuts claim nobody has ever seen?

85 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:45:40am

re: #82 JamesWI

And now it really begins:

[Embedded content]

First new ad out today in swing states, this one focusing on "No I'm not going to cut $5 trillion in taxes!!"

That matters more than the debates if you ask me. The debates are important sure but how you use the debates is even more important. Does that make any sense?

86 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:46:31am

re: #84 Sheila Broflovski

Wait, how does Rush know that Obama received A's? Has he seen the college transcripts that the wingnuts claim nobody has ever seen?

Rush sees all. He's like Jesus, if Jesus Christ was a pompous right wing blowhard in love with himself. When in fact, he's Eric Cartman all grown up.

87 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:47:23am

re: #86 HappyWarrior

Rush sees all. He's like Jesus, if Jesus Christ was a pompous right wing blowhard in love with himself. When in fact, he's Eric Cartman all grown up.

HA HA HA.

88 Kronocide  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:47:23am

re: #71 Sheila Broflovski

Iowahawk didn't lose his shit he's a fucking sell out. He noticed he gets more retweets and page hits when he loads up on the partisan edge.

Hard to make cynical and petty sleights funny.

89 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:47:28am
90 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:48:33am
91 Lidane  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:48:51am
92 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:49:30am

re: #82 JamesWI

And now it really begins:

[Embedded content]

First new ad out today in swing states, this one focusing on "No I'm not going to cut $5 trillion in taxes!!"

Cool. That 'Give Mitt enough rope to hang himself' theory seems a lot more plausible at this point.

93 erik_t  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:50:25am

re: #92 makeitstop

Cool. That 'Give Mitt enough rope to hang himself' theory seems a lot more plausible at this point.

I dunno, statements like this make it feel all 2010y in here.

94 Political Atheist  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:51:01am

Anyone read this yet?

2012 Election
Blue Truth, Red Truth

95 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:51:27am

re: #89 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Maybe it's carbon-free, like this new-fangled Domino sugar. My chemistry professor daughter assures me that sugar is water if you take the carbon out, but Domino still sells the stuff in cardboard boxes.

96 A Mom Anon  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:51:43am

I try very hard to be a sunny optimist most of the time. I don't always succeed,heaven knows,but I do try.It's especially tough here in redder than red state GA. But it actually frightens me that so many people are completely willing to sacrifice things that belong to all of us,like national parks and forests,the public airwaves,PBS,public schools,etc because why? To stick it to liberals? What the fuck has to happen to a person to become so spiteful as to hurt themselves in the long term just to score shitty political points?

I also wonder about all these rich fuckwads who are forking over millions of dollars to buy lobbyists and congresscritters to get their way,the political donations,running ALEC,all of it. How much does that cost vs. doing the right thing in the first place? Has anyone ever run the numbers on that? I've tried looking,but I can't find anything,I don't know if I'm asking the wrong questions or not. I get the impression that alot of the time it would end up being cheaper to do the right thing,so why is that such a horrible thing?

Maybe I should be glad I don't get it,but god this is tiresome. I'm sick of the bad guys winning most of the time. Or at least it seems like it. The biggest asshole has the most money and the least suffering. I wish Karma was a bigger and faster bitch sometimes.

97 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:52:03am

re: #87 Sheila Broflovski

HA HA HA.

Seriously when I hear Rush, I think so that's what happens when Cartman grows up.

98 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:52:30am

What this pretty much amounts to is that Romney lost the debate among people who have more than 2 brain cells to rub together. To the rest of the world, he won.

99 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:52:36am

re: #93 erik_t

I dunno, statements like this make it feel all 2010y in here.

Just sayin'. It's a known fact that if you let Mitt talk long enough he'll trip himself up. And last night, he did just that.

And the ads will illustrate to undecideds what a liar he is, and piss off the RWNJs who suspected him of being a RINO all along. Win-win.

100 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:53:02am

re: #97 HappyWarrior

Seriously when I hear Rush, I think so that's what happens when Cartman grows up.

Cartman doesn't need to grow up be become Rush. He could be Rush right now.

101 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:53:58am

re: #100 Sheila Broflovski

Cartman doesn't need to grow up be become Rush. He could be Rush right now.

I mean in adult form. I've seen enough Rush clips to know that he has the intellectualism and maturity of a fifth grader. Errr fourth grader since I forgot that the boys on South Park are fourth graders.

102 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:54:14am

I get a little crazy when I hear people talking about "clean coal" as if it were a real technology that's actually in place right now, as Romney did last night.

This is one of the biggest hoaxes perpetrated on America by the energy industries. "Clean coal" is a phantom. If the technologies these people are calling "clean coal" are ever going to be viable, that day is LONG in the future. At present, there simply is no such thing.

In fact, I may add this to my post, because Romney actually said, "I'm gonna make sure we can continue to burn clean coal." As if we're doing it right now.

103 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:54:54am

re: #94 Daniel Ballard

Anyone read this yet?

2012 Election
Blue Truth, Red Truth

I think it's a great article but not many here are going to like it. I find the non-partisan fact checkers invaluable and I'm glad they're getting recognition.

104 Kronocide  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:56:08am

Clean Coal = Romney Honesty

105 A Mom Anon  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:56:50am

re: #102 Charles Johnson

Even IF there was a way to burn it clean,there isn't a way to mine it without creating a disaster in it's wake. Is there any mining site that's not an ecological disaster?

106 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:57:06am

They may just be making lemonade here, but...

Obama Camp’s Post-Debate Plan: Expose ‘Serial Evader’ Romney

Even if they hadn't consciously made a decision to give Romney enough rope, they're going to use the debate against him. Smart move

107 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:58:21am

re: #103 Killgore Trout

I think it's a great article but not many here are going to like it. I find the non-partisan fact checkers invaluable and I'm glad they're getting recognition.

Thanks for speaking for us.

108 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:58:21am

BUT IF YOU ACTUALLY BOTHER TO READ THE CNN ARTICLE THEY LINK TO, THIS IS YET ANOTHER ROMNEYLIE.

109 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:58:36am

@FiredBigBird is back.

110 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:59:25am

re: #107 The Ghost of a Flea

Thanks for speaking for us.

You're welcome.

111 BeenHereAwhile  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:59:30am

re: #54 MichaelJ

I expect in a debate that there will be distortions, fact-stretching and misrepresentation, but I expect those things to at least have a basis in fact. I think Obama was a bit shocked by the sheer audacity of Mitt's comments. How do you engage in an intelligent, reasoned debate when your opponent simply switches positions and denies his own words as he sees fit and does so with conviction and panache? People are judging this debate based on who came across with better verve and personality. Should we really be judging the words of a man who wishes to occupy the most powerful position in the free world by reality TV standards? I find this mindset absolutely appalling.

Romney's debate tactics last night were classic Karl Rove DARVO.

Rove's DARVO replaced Atwater's Southern Strategy 14 years ago, and has been the Republicans "go to" play ever since.

112 Big Steve  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:59:31am

re: #98 Ghost of Tom Joad

What this pretty much amounts to is that Romney lost the debate among people who have more than 2 brain cells to rub together. To the rest of the world, he won.

Well I thought Romney won.....so off to throw my PhD from Rice University in the trash.

113 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 10:59:46am

re: #106 makeitstop

They may just be making lemonade here, but...

Obama Camp’s Post-Debate Plan: Expose ‘Serial Evader’ Romney

Even if they hadn't consciously made a decision to give Romney enough rope, they're going to use the debate against him. Smart move

I think it's the smart move.

114 JamesWI  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:00:07am

So, remember when Mitt said he was going go eliminate the deficit, not by cutting spending or raising revenue, but by "growing the economy"?

Those 12 million new jobs would have to pay an average of $433,333 a year.

115 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:01:31am

re: #114 JamesWI

So, remember when Mitt said he was going go eliminate the deficit, not by cutting spending or raising revenue, but by "growing the economy"?

[Embedded content]

Those 12 million new jobs would have to pay an average of $433,333 a year.

He's gonna create 12 million jobs that pay nearly $450K/yr?

Okay, now I think I might vote for him.///

116 blueraven  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:02:16am

re: #103 Killgore Trout

I think it's a great article but not many here are going to like it. I find the non-partisan fact checkers invaluable and I'm glad they're getting recognition.

How about you stop speaking for the rest of us?

117 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:02:26am

re: #115 Targetpractice

He's gonna create 12 million jobs that pay nearly $450K/yr?

Okay, now I think I might vote for him.///

Sorry, they're all promised to his campaign contributors.

118 A Mom Anon  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:03:00am

re: #114 JamesWI

Awesome,where do I apply? I'm a hard worker,a quick learner and for that amount,I'd be productive as hell.

He thinks we're stupid,which is not an endearing quality.

119 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:03:24am

re: #117 makeitstop

Sorry, they're all promised to his campaign contributors' dancing horses.

120 Lidane  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:04:33am
121 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:04:46am

re: #112 Big Steve

Well I thought Romney won.....so off to throw my PhD from Rice University in the trash.

So what did you make of his completely misrepresenting-- or, one might say, lying-- about his position on cutting taxes, pre-existing conditions, etc?

Or are you just talking style, not substance?

122 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:04:53am

re: #112 Big Steve

Well I thought Romney won.....so off to throw my PhD from Rice University in the trash.

I'm talking in terms of content now that the debate is over and people can analyze the 'truthiness' of what he said. You'll get no disagreement from me that on presentation and optics, Mitt won last night. Once you start looking into the details, the massive flip-flops, the position changes, the outright lies, it starts to look different. When I say 'brain cells to rub together' I'm talking about folks who actually will examine what he said and come to logical conclusions about the veracity of it all.

It's pretty much the equivalent of that Green Bay / Seattle game where Seattle was given the victory, but once people had time to review it, you realize they didn't win anything.

123 blueraven  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:05:12am

re: #98 Ghost of Tom Joad

What this pretty much amounts to is that Romney lost the debate among people who have more than 2 brain cells to rub together. To the rest of the world, he won.

That is a bit harsh. I think Romney won on style, but not on substance.

124 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:06:38am
125 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:07:02am

I've updated this post with a rant about the clean coal lie.

126 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:07:36am
127 Mattand  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:08:48am

re: #98 Ghost of Tom Joad

What this pretty much amounts to is that Romney lost the debate among people who have more than 2 brain cells to rub together. To the rest of the world, he won.

re: #123 blueraven

That is a bit harsh. I think Romney won on style, but not on substance.

No, Ghost is right. Actually, Blueraven, you're right, too, in that Romney won on style. Unfortunately, style is the only thing most people pay attention to.

128 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:09:22am

re: #123 blueraven

That is a bit harsh. I think Romney won on style, but not on substance.

Yeah, realized that after, it's just a generalization about folks who clamor about him completely 'winning' the debate (on both optics and substance) without analyzing the information.

129 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:10:55am

I think it's kind of ironic that Romney won on style and Obama on substance. How many times have we heard that all Obama does is give pretty speeches and offer nothing of substance?

130 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:11:41am

re: #127 Mattand

re: #123 blueraven

No, Ghost is right. Actually, Blueraven, you're right, too, in that Romney won on style. Unfortunately, style is the only thing most people pay attention to.

We were saying the same thing, I just wasn't very specific how I said it.

131 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:13:06am

re: #127 Mattand

re: #123 blueraven

No, Ghost is right. Actually, Blueraven, you're right, too, in that Romney won on style. Unfortunately, style is the only thing most people pay attention to.

Yes, it's mostly style, body language, etc. I think what really helped Mitt was his answers were very well structured. A lot of "there are 4 reasons for this....First..." and then he ticked off the reasons. Obama's responses were more muddled and wandering. But, this is what debates are all about. Obama didn't prepare or perform well enough. He needs to step it up.

132 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:14:30am

I'm hoping Obama can use the lies Romney told in this debate as ammo in the next one.

133 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:15:49am

re: #129 HappyWarrior

I think it's kind of ironic that Romney won on style and Obama on substance. How many times have we heard that all Obama does is give pretty speeches and offer nothing of substance?

While he wasn't awful, it wasn't like Obama was providing great details and substance himself. The debate was a little like the campaigns so far: Obama kept it low-key, said a few things that he thought needed to be said, and let Romney paint himself into a corner with his meandering changes on every position. Romney and his campaign have done more damage to themselves than Obama and his ever could. Whether it looked good or not, that's what the strategy seemed to be last night IMO.

134 A Mom Anon  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:16:13am

re: #131 Killgore Trout

Umm,Obama also has this little thing called Being President to contend with. I think there are some days he might be kinda busy with stuff besides debate prep.

135 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:17:42am

re: #134 A Mom Anon

Umm,Obama also has this little thing called Being President to contend with. I think there are some days he might be kinda busy with stuff besides debate prep.

Oh please, it's not like Obama has 5 sons he has to fact-check every day! (does that really require the slashes of sarcasm?)

136 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:18:59am

re: #131 Killgore Trout

And Fact Check KT disappears.
Now it's Style Over Substance KT.

137 erik_t  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:19:10am

re: #135 Ghost of Tom Joad

Oh please, it's not like Obama has 5 sons he has to fact-check every day! (does that really require the slashes of sarcasm?)

Saying 'I raised a bunch of liars' seems like dubious optics, but whatever.

138 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:20:34am

re: #133 Ghost of Tom Joad

While he wasn't awful, it wasn't like Obama was providing great details and substance himself. The debate was a little like the campaigns so far: Obama kept it low-key, said a few things that he thought needed to be said, and let Romney paint himself into a corner with his meandering changes on every position. Romney and his campaign have done more damage to themselves than Obama and his ever could. Whether it looked good or not, that's what the strategy seemed to be last night IMO.

True that. I am just saying, I find it ironic that Romney did better in style points than anything and is being lauded for winning on that by the same right wingers who as I said just deride Obama as a guy who gives a nice speech and that's it. I read Silver's article yesterday afternoon before the debate and he's pointed out that with some exceptions the challenger does better in the first debate. Sometimes that challenger succeeds e.g. Reagan in 1980 and sometimes he fails e.g. Mondale in 1984. I think this debate was important but to me it's equally if not more so how they respond to it. We're already seeing how Obama's team is doing an ad blitz showing Romney lying and contradicting himself during the debates. Haven't seen how Romney's team has responded to their win. If they're just celebrating their win and not much else, then it's a small victory for them. Anyhow still got a month of this to go. I can't wait for it to be over.

139 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:21:57am

re: #135 Ghost of Tom Joad

Oh please, it's not like Obama has 5 sons he has to fact-check every day! (does that really require the slashes of sarcasm?)

I am still weirded out by that comment. I'm surprised no one else is. I mean I kind of know what he was getting at, when you're raising kids, there's always a he said-she said thing going especially when we argue with our siblings but it was a strange analogy to use I thought.

140 Big Steve  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:23:26am

re: #121 Sheeplord

So what did you make of his completely misrepresenting-- or, one might say, lying-- about his position on cutting taxes, pre-existing conditions, etc?

Or are you just talking style, not substance?

See my posts on the previous thread.....

141 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:23:43am

re: #137 erik_t

Saying 'I raised a bunch of liars' seems like dubious optics, but whatever.

I was kind of floored by that one. In order to smear Obama as a liar, he compared him to his sons.

It was obviously one of his prepared zingers. And please note that he specifically used the word "boys."

"Look, I've got five BOYS. I'm used to people saying something that's not always true, but just keep repeating it."

Not just a random word.

142 dragonfire1981  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:24:03am

I think part of the reason Romney came off decently last night (factual accuracy of his statements notwithstanding) is because the debate was heavily focused on the Economy and health care.

I hope the next two debates go more deeply into social issues: Abortion, LGBT rights, 2nd amendment rights and immigration.

As an immigrant myself I really want to see the candidates tackle that last one.

143 A Mom Anon  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:24:18am

re: #137 erik_t

Yeah,that was freaking weird. Also,his little snide"you may be entitled to your big house and private plane but you're not entitled to your own facts" was just dumber than a sack of hammers. Because Mitt lives in a tent and has to take the bus to work every day. Really? A rich guy with several houses and a plane has balls enough to say that shit in public?

144 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:24:29am

re: #139 HappyWarrior

I am still weirded out by that comment. I'm surprised no one else is. I mean I kind of know what he was getting at, when you're raising kids, there's always a he said-she said thing going especially when we argue with our siblings but it was a strange analogy to use I thought.

I have 6 sons, and I raised them to be truth-tellers (my daughters too), I trust them and I don't feel the need to fact-check their ass all the time.

145 dragonfire1981  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:24:36am

re: #139 HappyWarrior

I am still weirded out by that comment. I'm surprised no one else is. I mean I kind of know what he was getting at, when you're raising kids, there's always a he said-she said thing going especially when we argue with our siblings but it was a strange analogy to use I thought.

Someone on his prep team told him it was a good idea. I doubt Mitt really even knew what it meant.

146 erik_t  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:24:37am

re: #141 Charles Johnson

It was obviously one of his prepared zingers. And please note that he specifically used the word "boys."

FFS. That didn't even occur to me.

147 OhNoZombies!  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:24:38am

re: #135 Ghost of Tom Joad

Oh please, it's not like Obama has 5 sons he has to fact-check every day! (does that really require the slashes of sarcasm?)

I know right!
It's a well known fact that pre-teen girls never lie...

148 Big Steve  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:25:26am

re: #139 HappyWarrior

I am still weirded out by that comment. I'm surprised no one else is. I mean I kind of know what he was getting at, when you're raising kids, there's always a he said-she said thing going especially when we argue with our siblings but it was a strange analogy to use I thought.

the son's quote was a response where he was commenting on Obama saying things about Romney over and over doesn't make them true as his sons obviously were want to do. I have two sons and I am very familiar with this concept.

149 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:26:21am

re: #142 dragonfire1981

I think part of the reason Romney came off decently last night (factual accuracy of his statements notwithstanding) is because the debate was heavily focused on the Economy and health care.

I hope the next two debates go more deeply into social issues: Abortion, LGBT rights, 2nd amendment rights and immigration.

As an immigrant myself I really want to see the candidates tackle that last one.

Because he lied his freaking head off all about the economy and health care. And he did not come off decently, he came off like a belligerent, lying asshole.

150 Mattand  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:26:27am

re: #136 Varek Raith

And Fact Check KT disappears.
Now it's Style Over Substance KT.

I can't disagree with KT on this one.

I listen to a lot of tech podcasts on Leo Laporte's network, and one theme they hit over and over is that the panels aren't "regular" tech users. They are people who are incredibly knowledgeable about tech, so their viewpoint is from a much more sophisticated angle.

Most of the people at LGF, regardless of political persuasion, are much the same. I'm admittedly one of the least knowledgeable posters here, yet my awareness of the current political scene is light years beyond most family and friends.

Most people are saying Obama came off as flat, and Romney appeared smooth. That doesn't fly on a blog like this, but for the regular voting public, that's all that matters.

151 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:26:30am

re: #139 HappyWarrior

I think it's obvious he was trying to make a joke about raising young boys who are known for lying. I doubt he was blatantly calling his adult sons liars (then again, this is Mitt). He's just a seriously unfunny person.

I'd be really curious as to what type of comedy (if any) Romney enjoys. Most comedy/comics I know finds a way to make every-day (common folk, or as Ann calls us, "you people") life funny in some way.

153 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:27:22am

re: #142 dragonfire1981

I think part of the reason Romney came off decently last night (factual accuracy of his statements notwithstanding) is because the debate was heavily focused on the Economy and health care.

I hope the next two debates go more deeply into social issues: Abortion, LGBT rights, 2nd amendment rights and immigration.

As an immigrant myself I really want to see the candidates tackle that last one.

Final debate is all foreign policy which as Mitt would say is a "distraction." The second is mixed foreign policy and domestic issues but I think they will hit on domestic issues like those you mention that weren't covered last night. Last night had a lot of the few issues Romney was polling close to Obama on. His strong issues if you will. It will be interesting to see Romney asked hopefully how he reconciles his view that Obama's administration is too intrusive with his own views on abortion, gay rights, and immigration. That's what disappointed me in how Lehrer handled the questions. I think he could have asked Romney and Obama about social issues. I understand the deficit is a big issue but there are other issues that could have gotten covered too.

154 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:27:32am

Drove by the anti-drone demonstration on the way back from lunch. One of the moonbats had an "Obama baby-killer!," sign, I shit you not. Another had an Obama-faced bumblebee gleefully dropping huge bombs on a stereotyped Pakistani village full of cringing children. Wish I'd gotten pictures.

I wanted to roll down the window and shout "Romney thanks you!" but it would have been a waste of time.

155 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:27:34am

re: #152 Gus

Limbaugh: Obama "Has Been Shielded ... If He Got A C At Harvard, Somebody Gave Him An A"

[Embedded content]

The righties are really pushing the "lazy shiftless negro" meme hard today.

156 Kragar  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:27:48am

Pamela Geller Warns 'The New Fascism' of the Left is Coming to Destroy Freedom

Geller, who literally runs a group called the American Freedom Defense Initiative, told Mefferd that “it’s interesting how fascists always cloak themselves in the word ‘freedom’” and claimed that anti-fascists are the new fascists. She even blamed the vandalism on a culture of “lawlessness” promoted by the media, the “very violent and misogynist” Occupy Wall Street movement and Obama, who she says is also “aiding and abetting of Al-Qaeda and jihadist elements.”

Not to be outdone, Mefferd claimed that the “radical left agenda” is pushing a “creeping anti-Semitism” reminiscent of the Holocaust.

157 blueraven  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:27:49am

re: #127 Mattand

re: #123 blueraven

No, Ghost is right. Actually, Blueraven, you're right, too, in that Romney won on style. Unfortunately, style is the only thing most people pay attention to.

You can still think Romney won the debate, even if you are an intelligent being. Yes, style matters. JFK/Nixon

158 allegro  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:27:51am

Thinking about the debate this morning, it occurred to me that Romney broadcast his intent a couple of weeks ago when he said that in his debate preparations he expected Obama to lie. He said he had to decide whether to address the lies or just go on and talk about his policy positions.

Typical Rovian tactic. Accuse the other side of doing what you are doing/going to do yourself. It's always opposite day with Republicans. Obama went into the debate trusting that he could argue the facts of Romney's actual platform that he has been running on for many months. When Romney denied and reversed on every single policy position upfront, it was no longer a debate in any form. It was nailing jello to a wall.

I suspect Obama will be better prepared next time.

159 Political Atheist  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:28:01am

My favorite paragraph from the Time article

But the perpetrators usually remain a step ahead of the cops. “It’s like the campaigns are driving 100 miles an hour on a highway with a posted speed limit of 60, but the patrol cars all have flats,” says Mark McKinnon, a Republican ad man for the presidential campaigns of George W. Bush and John McCain. “There was a quaint era in politics when we were held accountable for the truth and paid consequences for errors of fact. No more.”

Read more: [Link: swampland.time.com...]

160 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:28:47am

re: #152 Gus

Limbaugh: Obama "Has Been Shielded ... If He Got A C At Harvard, Somebody Gave Him An A"

[Embedded content]

Thanks Gus, dogs are now howling uncontrollably.

161 Mattand  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:29:08am

re: #156 Kragar

Pamela Geller Warns 'The New Fascism' of the Left is Coming to Destroy Freedom

Again? That's what, 36 times this year alone?

162 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:29:16am

re: #152 Gus

Limbaugh: Obama "Has Been Shielded ... If He Got A C At Harvard, Somebody Gave Him An A"

How did Rush get a peek at the sooper seekrit college transcripts?

163 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:29:33am

re: #148 Big Steve

the son's quote was a response where he was commenting on Obama saying things about Romney over and over doesn't make them true as his sons obviously were want to do. I have two sons and I am very familiar with this concept.

Uh I know what he meant, I'm not stupid. I just thought it was a weird analogy to use at the President of the United States.

164 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:30:05am

re: #156 Kragar

Pamela Geller Warns 'The New Fascism' of the Left is Coming to Destroy Freedom

Jeez you'd think she'd be locked up in some gulag somewhere by this time already.

165 darthstar  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:30:05am

re: #141 Charles Johnson

I was kind of floored by that one. In order to smear Obama as a liar, he compared him to his sons.

166 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:30:09am

re: #152 Gus

Limbaugh: Obama "Has Been Shielded ... If He Got A C At Harvard, Somebody Gave Him An A"

[Embedded content]

And Sununu declares Obama "too lazy" to do debate prep.

"Lazy, shiftless black man" seems to be their running theme in the face of fact-checking.

167 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:30:31am

re: #163 HappyWarrior

Uh I know what he meant, I'm not stupid. I just thought it was a weird analogy to use at the President of the United States.

It's obvious what he meant. And it's also obvious that he called his own sons liars in order to compare them with the President.

168 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:30:38am

re: #155 Charles Johnson

The righties are really pushing the "lazy shiftless negro" meme hard today.

Had he been more aggressive they would have called him an uppity Ni-CLANG!

169 Big Steve  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:31:00am

re: #163 HappyWarrior

Uh I know what he meant, I'm not stupid. I just thought it was a weird analogy to use at the President of the United States.

admittedly it wasn't "and you are not Jack Kennedyish"

170 Kragar  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:31:16am

Garlow: Nobody is Born Gay Because Sexual Orientation is a Modern Construct

the two spent a good deal of time on the topic of marriage equality which, not surprisingly, they both vociferously oppose, as Garlow explained that "sexual orientation" doesn't really exist and is just a modern phenomenon cooked up in the last few years. As such, nobody is really born gay, and though some may have a "pernicious tendency towards same-sex attraction," that doesn't mean they have to act on it, just as "every health heterosexual male ... has a pernicious tendency towards polygamy" but doesn't act on that or seek legal endorsement and approval for it:

171 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:31:23am

re: #169 Big Steve

admittedly it wasn't "and you are not Jack Kennedyish"

No shit.

172 Jolo5309  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:31:24am

re: #43 Gus

Trust - Obama for America TV Ad

[Embedded content]

It isn't 5 trillion, it is only 4.8

173 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:31:36am

Romney was practically yelling.

174 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:31:40am

re: #159 Daniel Ballard

My favorite part was this....

So what explains the factual recklessness of the campaigns? The most obvious answer can be found in the penalties, or lack thereof, for wandering astray. Voters just show less and less interest in punishing those who deceive. The reasons may be found in the political fracturing of the nation. As some voters feel a deeper affinity for one side or another in political debates, they have developed a tendency to forgive the home team’s fibs. No matter their ideology, many voters increasingly inhabit information bubbles in which they are less likely to hear their worldview contradicted.
....chances are high that your neighbors mostly agree with you and that the media you choose to consume rarely rattles your outlook. The pundits on MSNBC, the Huffington Post and the editorial page of the New York Times do a fine job of calling out the deceptions of Romney, but if you want to hear where Obama is going wrong, you might be better served on the Drudge Report, Fox News or the Wall Street Journal editorial page. “We don’t collect news to inform us. We collect news to affirm us,” explains Republican pollster Frank Luntz, who has been studying the 2012 electorate in swing-state focus groups. “It used to be that we disagreed on the solution but agreed on the problem. Now we don’t even agree on the problem.” All of this contributes to an environment in which, for some voters, unwelcome facts are simply filtered out and flushed away.

Human beings are simply more willing to believe falsehoods that confirm their worldview

175 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:31:49am

By the way, PBS is offline. They issued a statement about Romney's attack on them. Must be huge traffic.

I think the BIg Bird line may end up being the most self-damaging thing Romney said.

176 spiderx  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:32:02am

lets face it guys. Obama is not a good debater. He's no Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton would have knocked that $716 billion lie out of the park.

177 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:32:14am

re: #172 Jolo5309

It isn't 5 trillion, it is only 4.8

Pants on fire!
-- Politifact

//

178 dragonfire1981  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:32:43am

re: #170 Kragar

Garlow: Nobody is Born Gay Because Sexual Orientation is a Modern Construct

Uhh, I'm very happy with one wife whom I love dearly, I have no desire or pernicious tendency to add more.

179 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:32:51am

re: #167 Charles Johnson

It's obvious what he meant. And it's also obvious that he called his own sons liars in order to compare them with the President.

Yes, I've seen Obama referred to as "boy" before.

180 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:33:18am

re: #170 Kragar

Garlow: Nobody is Born Gay Because Sexual Orientation is a Modern Construct

Seriously? Heterosexual men have a tendency towards polygamy? Is that why so many conservative men get caught with one or more mistresses?

181 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:33:20am

re: #176 spiderx

lets face it guys. Obama is not a good debater. He's no Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton would have knocked that $716 billion lie out of the park.

If it was Bill up there last night against Romney, Mitt would have self-deported himself to the Caymans for a 10-year bender before it was over.

182 Big Steve  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:34:01am

re: #176 spiderx

lets face it guys. Obama is not a good debater. He's no Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton would have knocked that $716 billion lie out of the park.

I miss Bill Clinton at debates....the man lived for them. The town hall one with Bush Sr probably won him the election.

183 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:34:18am

re: #170 Kragar

Garlow: Nobody is Born Gay Because Sexual Orientation is a Modern Construct

I really doubt those people born into extremely anti gay families choose to become gay, Garlow. You know what, I'll say this. Even if people did choose sexual orientation, so what. I'm a straight guy attracted to women and I have no problem if a guy's attracted to another guy or a woman's attracted to another woman. There are worse things one could choose to be.

184 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:34:27am

re: #176 spiderx

lets face it guys. Obama is not a good debater. He's no Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton would have knocked that $716 billion lie out of the park.

Barack Obama is not Bill Clinton, we knew that going into the debate. We didn't expect him to act like Bill, though it might have been nice.

185 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:34:49am

Did they debate abortion?

No.

186 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:34:54am

re: #180 Targetpractice

Seriously? Heterosexual men have a tendency towards polygamy? Is that why so many conservative men get caught with one or more mistresses?

or misters whatever you call a male mistress.

187 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:35:07am

re: #183 HappyWarrior

I really doubt those people born into extremely anti gay families choose to become gay, Garlow. You know what, I'll say this. Even if people did choose sexual orientation, so what. I'm a straight guy attracted to women and I have no problem if a guy's attracted to another guy or a woman's attracted to another woman. There are worse things one could choose to be.

A Republican?

188 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:35:08am

Did they debate climate change?

No.

189 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:35:48am

Of course Obama is no Clinton. Every candidate has flaws and strengths.

190 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:36:02am

I'll save ya the time, Gus. They "debated" what Romney thinks he can win on: The economy. Calling it a "domestic policy debate" is a joke.

191 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:36:22am

re: #187 Targetpractice

A Republican?

Ha!

192 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:36:36am

re: #170 Kragar

Somebody get Chris Kluwe on the line.

193 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:36:40am

re: #102 Charles Johnson

There are technologies in place now that allow coal fired plants to reduce their emissions significantly over older plants, but they're still emitting all manner of chemicals and particulates.

For instance, one of the largest coal fired plants in the NYC metro area recently completed a major upgrade at a cost of about $750 million.

The project dates back to a state and federal investigation in 2000 that found two of PSEG's coal plants -- the Jersey City plant and another in Hamilton -- had been modified without installing pollution controls and obtaining permits required by the Clean Air Act's New Source Review program. The case never reached a courtroom because PSEG and federal and state officials came to an agreement in 2002 to install new emissions controls over a 10 year period.

But after it became clear that PSEG was falling short of reaching some of the milestones of the settlement, the company and the federal government negotiated a new agreement in 2006 that hit the company with $6 million in fines, added stricter penalties and instituted more aggressive cleanup targets at both facilities (Greenwire, Nov. 30, 2006).

The upgrades that were eventually made at Hudson nearly doubled the size of the plant's footprint and addressed four specific pollution concerns.

Dry scrubbers and selective catalytic reduction units were installed to lower emissions of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides. Activated carbon injection units were added to control toxic mercury emissions. And a pulse jet fabric filter, more commonly known as a "bag house," was installed to reduce the release of particulate matter, a blend of ordinary dust and fine soot that can cause breathing problems and other ailments at high enough levels.

With the new technologies in place, officials at the facility said last week the Hudson station has reduced its emissions of all four monitored substances by at least 90 percent. Those numbers coincide with emissions data from the last decade reported by U.S. EPA that show air releases at the plant peaking in 2005 and then dropping off significantly.

That site in Jersey City released nearly 2.4 million tons of greenhouse gases in 2011 (after the emissions control upgrade); another similar facility in Ridgefield released 2.6 million tons (nearly 5 million tons between the two power generation facilities).

Statewide, NJ's 10 coal fired plants had reduced mercury emissions by ~90% - from nearly 700 pounds of mercury to 68 pounds. That is mercury embedded and aersolized in the emissions. It's cleaner than it was a generation ago, but it's not clean.

In a somewhat related move, emissions are down at power plants because they've shifted to cheaper natural gas as compared to coal. Natural gas has lower emissions than coal, but it's not clean. Cleaner isn't clean.

194 Kragar  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:36:58am

re: #178 dragonfire1981

Uhh, I'm very happy with one wife whom I love dearly, I have no desire or pernicious tendency to add more.

I love how one cannot be born gay, but one can apparently be born Christian or some other religion.

Terror babies! Watch for them!

195 Mattand  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:37:01am

re: #175 Charles Johnson

By the way, PBS is offline. They issued a statement about Romney's attack on them. Must be huge traffic.

I think the BIg Bird line may end up being the most self-damaging thing Romney said.

Christ, can you imagine Romney actually getting into office and not shitcanning Sesame Street? His own party is so off-the-rails they would impeach him over that.

196 Big Steve  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:38:55am

It is interesting how everyone here wants to judge the debate on "substance" only but yet a Big Bird comment garners so much attention.

197 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:41:03am

re: #196 Big Steve

It is interesting how everyone here wants to judge the debate on "substance" only but yet a Big Bird comment garners so much attention.

Maybe that what Mitt hopes for and then nobody will spend too much attention going over all his other lies.

But, we can cover Big Bird and also Mitt's Big Lies.

198 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:41:43am

re: #196 Big Steve

It is interesting how everyone here wants to judge the debate on "substance" only but yet a Big Bird comment garners so much attention.

That is substance, when a candidate, Romney uses PBS which isn't even 1% of the overall budget for his talking points about how we need to eradicate the deficit, then it's going to be mocked and mocked rightfully so.

199 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:41:44am

re: #196 Big Steve

It is interesting how everyone here wants to judge the debate on "substance" only but yet a Big Bird comment garners so much attention.

It's with regards to Mitt's attack on PBS.

200 Mattand  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:42:31am

re: #174 Killgore Trout

My favorite part was this....

My one argument to this is that in some ways, the definition of reality has shifted. Global warming denial and "waterboarding isn't torture" leap to mind. And we can thank slimebuckets like Luntz and the GOP for that one.

201 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:43:39am

re: #199 Varek Raith

It's with regards to Mitt's attack on PBS.

Yep, really Romney brought up PBS and how PBS needs to be cut to fix the deficit. PBS whose portion of the budget is so miniature compared with other things that can be cut that Mitt didn't talk about. It is substance.

202 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:45:52am

...gasoline prices have doubled under the president...Romney

They appear to have doubled is more complex then this statement. It went down to 2 bucks a gallon because of the market crash. The trajectory was for higher gasoline prices before the recession.

203 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:46:06am

re: #140 Big Steve

See my posts on the previous thread.....

I did. You didn't really address what I asked. For example, the voucher stuff you apparently understand as some program where you can get vouchers, instead of medicare. That's not Paul Ryan's plan-- it's to replace medicare with vouchers. An either/or plan makes no sense because there is no insurance, none at all, that will be willing to insure elderly as cheaply as medicare. They're too big a risk and incur far too many costs.

And you kind of hand-waved the tax policy stuff aside, even though what Mitt said wasn't just a little fibby fluffle, it was an absolute rejection of his own position, which I'm betting he's now reverted back to.

Basically, Romney said quite a few things in the debate that are not actually his position. So isn't that a problem, in terms of 'winning' the debate, if he can't actually represent his own positions but has to adopt new ones for the debate?

204 darthstar  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:46:07am

re: #175 Charles Johnson

I think the BIg Bird line may end up being the most self-damaging thing Romney said.

Of course, if he'd said he wanted to kill Elmo nobody would give a shit.

205 Kragar  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:46:20am

Romney Campaign Chair On Obama: ‘When You’re Not That Bright You Can’t Get Better Prepared’

Sununu described Obama’s performance as “babbling,” “lazy,” and “disengaged,” and dismissed the possibility that he could do better in the future. “When you’re not that bright you can’t get better prepared,” he said

206 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:47:12am

re: #196 Big Steve

It is interesting how everyone here wants to judge the debate on "substance" only but yet a Big Bird comment garners so much attention.

Big Bird is a microcosm of that segment of the debate. It's a representation of Romney, and how when asked to address the deficit in the country, one of his few specifics was to eliminate PBS funding (which, repeated again ad-nauseam is a miniscule outlay in the budget).

207 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:48:34am

re: #193 lawhawk

Extending my remarks. There are carbon capture-type plans afoot around the world, but the economics don't make sense and the number of these plants being planned/designed has dropped as producers have shifted to cleaner fuel sources. And one of those plants got stimulus funding for a pilot project, but the company backed out because the economics didn't work:

Herzog pointed to the American Electric Power Mountaineer coal power plant project in New Haven, West Virginia, where carbon produced at a coal plant was to be sequestered deep in Mount Simon sandstone. The U.S. Department of Energy was slated to fund half of the project's costs, up to $334 million, but after a successful pilot project, AEP canceled Phase 2 CCS at the site last summer. The decision was attributed to a weak economy and an uncertain U.S. policy on climate and carbon.

"They got half of the money from government stimulus and the other half had to come from somewhere," Herzog explained. In Virginia, which receives power generated by Mountaineer, the State Corporation Commission declined requests to pass costs on to consumers through rate hikes. "The utility said, 'Why should our rate payers pay for a technology that we may not even use?' There's no climate policy. If there was going to be a (carbon) market in the future you could make the case that you pay more now so that it's cheaper in the future. But with no clear indication of a future market, people don't want to pay more."

208 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:48:43am

re: #205 Kragar

Romney Campaign Chair On Obama: ‘When You’re Not That Bright You Can’t Get Better Prepared’

I guess Reagan was a dumbass too and George W Bush. After all they flubbed their first debates in re-election too. Really, Sununu's not naive. He's worked in the White House before and knows the presidency can stress an incumbent president. Does it totally excuse how Obama did at the debate, no, but does it explain why a challenger without the stresses a sitting POTUS have might do better, absolutely. And if that's an excuse, fuck it.

209 Targetpractice  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:49:11am

re: #205 Kragar

Romney Campaign Chair On Obama: ‘When You’re Not That Bright You Can’t Get Better Prepared’

Thank you, John, for raising the level of political discourse to the 3rd grade level.

210 blueraven  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:50:01am

re: #189 HappyWarrior

Of course Obama is no Clinton. Every candidate has flaws and strengths.

Obama got healthcare passed even when no one gave it much of a chance. DADT is gone. Persistence and patience pays off.
They are different, but complimentary.

211 Big Steve  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:50:09am

re: #198 HappyWarrior

That is substance, when a candidate, Romney uses PBS which isn't even 1% of the overall budget for his talking points about how we need to eradicate the deficit, then it's going to be mocked and mocked rightfully so.

Yet $3.8B in Oil subsidies out of a $2.6T budget (also less than 1%) seems to be the Presidents answer to deficit problems.

212 dragonfire1981  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:50:38am

re: #202 Gus

...gasoline prices have doubled under the president...Romney

They appear to have doubled is more complex then this statement. It went down to 2 bucks a gallon because of the market crash. The trajectory was for higher gasoline prices before the recession.

Not to mention another CAUSE of the economic meltdown was when gas prices went up to $5+ a gallon in the summer of 2008 and demand crashed across the board.

213 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:50:45am

re: #196 Big Steve

It is interesting how everyone here wants to judge the debate on "substance" only but yet a Big Bird comment garners so much attention.

There's some substance behind that. Focusing on such a small budget item while studiously avoiding talking about the actual cuts need to make his budget work was a deliberate choice on Romney's part, because if he talked about those other cuts he'd lose support.

214 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:50:52am

re: #211 Big Steve

Yet $3.8B in Oil subsidies out of a $2.6T budget (also less than 1%) seems to be the Presidents answer to deficit problems.

You specifically asked about why people are talking about Sesame Street, no?

215 A Mom Anon  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:50:56am

re: #196 Big Steve

It's not just about Big Bird and you know it. PBS is really a big drain on the budget and it has to go? Seriously? Get back to me on that one when Republicans go after the big ticket stuff FIRST.

How about companies who have massive write offs and loopholes who pay zero to the IRS AND get a refund because of all of those special perks? Or,how about figuring out how to pay for two wars and actually put those war costs on the books instead of hiding it in supplemental bills that fund things for a few months at a time? And while we're there,let's talk about the current President putting those wars on the books while the GOP screams about how he's the most spendy president evar. Where were all those folks when we were spending a billion or more a month on Iraq and Afghanistan? How about the ripoffs perpetrated by private contractors? Not to mention the abuses and crimes of those companies. How our troops had vehicles with no armor,shitty body armor,being shocked in their own showers due to shoddy construction by contractors? I would LOVE it if the GOP would tackle that shit and do it in a meaningful way that put a stop to all of it.

216 dragonfire1981  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:51:03am

re: #209 Targetpractice

Thank you, John, for raising the level of political discourse to the 3rd grade level.

Oh come on! Third graders are better than that!

217 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:51:08am

re: #208 HappyWarrior

I guess Reagan was a dumbass too and George W Bush. After all they flubbed their first debates in re-election too. Really, Sununu's not naive. He's worked in the White House before and knows the presidency can stress an incumbent president. Does it totally excuse how Obama did at the debate, no, but does it explain why a challenger without the stresses a sitting POTUS have might do better, absolutely.

Sununu's job on the campaign is to say racist and insulting things. He was saying much the same before the debate.

218 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:51:33am

re: #217 The Ghost of a Flea

Sununu's job on the campaign is to say racist and insulting things. He was saying much the same before the debate.

This is the same turd who asked the president to "start acting like an American."

219 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:52:38am

FAO Food Price Index

Look familiar? It's almost a reflection of gasoline prices. This is a global index. While Romney's also whining about food prices going up he fails to acknowledge that food prices in the USA are affected by global situations not limited to wheat, corn, infestations, drought, etc. That would includes the USA's recent drought and culling of beef cattle.

More BS from Romney.

220 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:52:40am

re: #211 Big Steve

Yet $3.8B in Oil subsidies out of a $2.6T budget (also less than 1%) seems to be the Presidents answer to deficit problems.

Oh, look. The goalpost moved.

221 blueraven  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:53:37am

re: #211 Big Steve

Yet $3.8B in Oil subsidies out of a $2.6T budget (also less than 1%) seems to be the Presidents answer to deficit problems.

No, he wants to raise taxes on the top earners. You may not agree but he does have a plan other than not funding PBS.

222 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:55:16am

re: #221 blueraven

No, he wants to raise taxes on the top earners. You may not agree but he does have a plan other than not funding PBS.

Obama did very specifically mention how they wouldn't take a deal if it included 1 dollar in increasing taxes vs. 10 dollars in spending cuts.

223 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:55:21am

re: #221 blueraven

No, he wants to raise taxes on the top earners. You may not agree but he does have a plan other than not funding PBS.

I think I heard or at least I know have in the past about him cutting DoD waste too. Really offer more than just PBS if you want to be taken seriously as a deficit hawk to me. I don't think Obama is a great deficit hawk for that matter either but I take him more seriously than Romney who seems to think the only solution is cutting social programs and being completely unwilling to raise taxes ever or cut defense spending.

224 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:55:42am

re: #222 Ghost of Tom Joad

Obama did very specifically mention how they wouldn't take a deal if it included 1 dollar in increasing taxes vs. 10 dollars in spending cuts.

I saw that, I was glad he mentioned that. But Obama's the divisive one!

225 Kragar  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:56:18am

Methodist Group Fights Back Against Anti-Muslim Ads

New ads went up yesterday in New York City’s subway system to counter controversial anti-Muslim ads paid for by Pamela Geller’s American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI) that referred to Muslims as “savages.” United Methodist Women announced their ad campaign Sept. 25 press conference of the Interfaith Center of New York.

The counter-ads — which read “Hate speech is not civilized. Support peace in word and deed” on a simple green background — will be running in subway stations throughout Manhattan at all ten of the locations where AFDI ads are currently running. United Methodist Women’s Facebook page has posted photos:

226 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:58:09am

You know why Eisenhower is a model for being smart with the debt? It's because Eisenhower unlike most of his successors in his party as president was actually willing to consider defense cuts and tax increases if he felt it would help the debt out. That's real fiscal conservatism. Not the baloney Romney tries to sell.

227 Gus  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:58:41am

re: #211 Big Steve

Yet $3.8B in Oil subsidies out of a $2.6T budget (also less than 1%) seems to be the Presidents answer to deficit problems.

Give me a break. Conservatives aren't against PBS because of spending. That's a load of bullshit piled 10 feet high.

228 Lidane  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:58:44am

Hahaha:

229 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:58:49am

re: #211 Big Steve

You guys won't be taken seriously on the deficit/taxes until you realize that supply side economics is an abject failure and that tax cuts don't pay for themselves. Also, jettison the stupid Norquist pledge you guys hold in such high esteem.
Then we'll talk.
Mmmkay?

230 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 11:59:39am

re: #228 Lidane

Hahaha:

[Embedded content]

This is where Newt's tweener janitors come in.

231 The Mongoose  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 12:04:43pm

re: #229 Varek Raith

You guys won't be taken seriously on the deficit/taxes until you realize that supply side economics is an abject failure and that tax cuts don't pay for themselves. Also, jettison the stupid Norquist pledge you guys hold in such high esteem.
Then we'll talk.
Mmmkay?

Well, not exactly.

Take a super-simplified income tax...a 0% tax rate will bring in $0. A 100% tax rate will also generate no revenue...no one will report any income. As you move away from these two extremes, revenue from the tax will rise.

So mathematically, somewhere in between there is a maximum level of tax revenue. If your tax rate is higher than the "perfect" peak rate, a tax reduction will actually increase revenues. If you're at or below that peak rate, a tax reduction will reduce revenues.

More complicated taxes obviously have more complicated solutions than this, and people won't agree on where the tax rates today are relative to the peak rates, but the basic underlying principle is sound. It's also a good reminder that there is a point at which raising taxes really does hurt revenues. France is about to find this out the hard way.

232 Varek Raith  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 12:11:32pm

re: #231 The Mongoose

And we've been far below that mark for decades.
Yet, all I hear is more tax cuts.

233 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 12:13:15pm

re: #232 Varek Raith

And we've been far below that mark for decades.
Yet, all I hear is more tax cuts.

Yep. Really, I don't want the other extreme which is what Hollende is proposing in France. I think that's too far, But Clinton era tax levels? Absolutely, I think that's acceptable and Romney and his allies want none of that.

234 The Mongoose  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 12:15:56pm

re: #232 Varek Raith

That's what I meant about people not agreeing about where the rates are relative to peak (though I'm sure you'll have most people here on side). Also, what I left out is that not everyone believes maximizing tax revenue is the appropriate goal. Of course, if you're going to think that way and also want to eliminate the deficit, you'd better be ready to seriously cut spending.

235 makeitstop  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 12:51:13pm

re: #205 Kragar

Romney Campaign Chair On Obama: ‘When You’re Not That Bright You Can’t Get Better Prepared’

Sununu is an ass.

236 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 2:06:10pm

re: #231 The Mongoose

What you said is true. However, we're on the left of the Laffer curve, not the right of it. We've cut tax rates, and tax revenue fell with it.

Also, the curve doesn't take into account progressive taxation, or pretty much anything else. And the rate of reportage isn't the thing capping the upper limit; the classic curve is all about economic activity, so a 100% tax rate would fail not because of nobody reporting but because it would kill the economy.

237 The Mongoose  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 3:39:37pm

re: #236 Sheeplord

I know. I was just using the first-order stuff to keep things simple. But we're saying the same thing...tax cuts are neither intrinsically beneficial or detrimental if your goal is maximizing tax revenue. It depends on the situation.

238 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Oct 4, 2012 8:55:43pm

re: #156 Kragar

Not to be outdone, Mefferd claimed that the “radical left agenda” is pushing a “creeping anti-Semitism” reminiscent of the Holocaust.

The events leading to the Holocaust would not be what I would characterize as "creeping." The Nazis in power made it part of policy to scapegoat Jews, label them, detain them in ghettoes, and haul them off in cattle cars to concentration camps.

I don't see that happening here in the USA now.

Nice way to belittle the Holocaust, Mefferd. Putz.


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