TwitterFacebook

Gun Control: A Misguided Focus on Mental Illness

Don’t fall for the diversion
US News • Views: 24,463

The big push to divert the discussion of guns and gun control into a discussion about mental illness is really beginning in earnest tonight. And unfortunately, many liberals arguing for gun control are falling for the diversion, because yes, mental health care is terrible in America and it does need improvement — but they’re not seeing how the right wing (and watch, this will be a big NRA talking point in their “major press conference”) is using this issue to take the debate in a vague, pointless direction that will end up without touching anyone’s precious guns.

I’ve been watching this “mental illness” talking point gather strength on the right since Friday, and now it looks like the word has been put out to hammer it hard.

For one example out of many, at Breitbart “News:” PSYCHIATRIST: LANZA WAS ‘PSEUDOCOMMANDO’ WITH ‘WOUNDED NARCISSISM’.

The psychiatrist they’re all-caps yelling about is not Adam Lanza’s psychiatrist; it’s another CNN talking head who never met anyone involved in the case, but apparently still considers it ethical to diagnose them on air.

Here’s a good piece on the subject by Richard Friedman, M.D. at the New York Times, that makes the same point I made in this post few days ago: A Misguided Focus on Mental Illness in Gun Control Debate.

Perhaps more significant, we are not very good at predicting who is likely to be dangerous in the future. According to Dr. Michael Stone, professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia and an expert on mass murderers, ‘Most of these killers are young men who are not floridly psychotic. They tend to be paranoid loners who hold a grudge and are full of rage.’

Even though we know from large-scale epidemiologic studies like the E.C.A. study that a young psychotic male who is intoxicated with alcohol and has a history of involuntary commitment is at a high risk of violence, most individuals who fit this profile are harmless.

Jeffery Swanson, a professor of psychiatry at Duke University and a leading expert in the epidemiology of violence, said in an e-mail, ‘Can we reliably predict violence? ‘No’ is the short answer. Psychiatrists, using clinical judgment, are not much better than chance at predicting which individual patients will do something violent and which will not.’

It would be even harder to predict a mass shooting, Dr. Swanson said, ‘You can profile the perpetrators after the fact and you’ll get a description of troubled young men, which also matches the description of thousands of other troubled young men who would never do something like this.’

Even if clinicians could predict violence perfectly, keeping guns from people with mental illness is easier said than done. Nearly five years after Congress enacted the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, only about half of the states have submitted more than a tiny proportion of their mental health records.

How effective are laws that prohibit people with mental illness from obtaining guns? According to Dr. Swanson’s recent research, these measures may prevent some violent crime. But, he added, ‘there are a lot of people who are undeterred by these laws.’

Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying; yes, mental health care in the United States needs to be improved. But the right wing is using this almost totally unrelated issue as a diversionary tactic to stop us from addressing the ongoing epidemic of gun crime. Dr. Friedman’s article concludes:

All the focus on the small number of people with mental illness who are violent serves to make us feel safer by displacing and limiting the threat of violence to a small, well-defined group. But the sad and frightening truth is that the vast majority of homicides are carried out by outwardly normal people in the grip of all too ordinary human aggression to whom we provide nearly unfettered access to deadly force.

Jump to bottom

574 comments

1 Alexzander  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:36:32pm

If it were purely an issue of mental health, you'd expect a more equal distribution between the genders. 60 of the last 61 mass shooters in the US were men, predominately young and white.

There are a number of extremely interwoven and complicated social/cultural factors at play.

2 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:36:42pm

I've also noticed concern trolling being a big part of it, namely first making a reductio ad absurdum argument (popular one being "You can't ban all the guns"), then declaring that since you can't get rid of all the guns, we should instead try to keep them out of the hands of the mentally ill. And if you stop and point out that the mentally ill are responsible for an exceedingly small minority of gun violence, they accuse you of not taking the problem "seriously."

3 allegro  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:42:46pm

Piers Morgan now has Jeffry Toobin and Alan Dershowitz on. I am very heartened with this honest conversation about gun control and our culture that I hope spreads. There's truth and passion that has been too long coming. I sincerely hope this becomes a trend that last long enough to have effect.

4 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:49:02pm

I think their conception of "mental health" is code for "more religion".

You poor depraved liberals!

5 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:49:24pm

177 MB of junk eliminated.

After it is in the new computer, a purge of programs will start.

6 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:49:35pm

I agree with this. This just reeks of distracting from some real issues at hand. We do need to improve the mental health system in this country. Of that, I'm in complete agreement with but the idea to paint all of these mass murderers of being merely mentally ill distracts from the reality which is a lot of them know exactly what they're doing. If Lanza had as reported Asperger's Syndrome, that doesn't have anything to do with his ability to reason right from wrong, his ability to realize that he was going to commit a grievous act. And whether people want to admit it or not. We have to look at ourselves. When we have ads as the one we've all I am sure seen for the manufacturer of one of the guns that Lanza used that equates a "man card" with owning the weapon. Then we have to stop and look at ourselves because owning or not something that is capable of so much destruction doesn't make you any more or less of a man.

7 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:49:44pm

The RWNJs are being pretty brazen with this attempt to rope-a-dope the conversation about how dangerously lax gun control is in the US (by omission and by design) by throwing up the mental illness angle.

The RWNJs in Congress will spout platitudes and promise the moon about mental health funding, just long enough for the heat about Newtown to die down. Then, it'll be back to what has been the status quo, with gun control and mental health both getting the shaft from the RWNJs in the GOP again.

8 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:50:33pm

The right wing is using "mental health" because it is the only card they have that might work in their favor. If America doesn't have the stomach for gun control now I wonder how many more massacres it will take.

9 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:54:56pm

Also "mental health" will be used like a bludgeon. Not to usher people to better care, but somehow penalize and punish mental illness.

10 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:55:48pm

I don't think I'm going to sell my AR after all... Because, basically, I like it. I am, however, unloading and offloading most of my 30-round magazines, because there's no point to me owning them. They're heavy, unwieldy, and oh yes, I'm not living in fucking Fallujah. I am not a hero or an anti-hero, I am not going to be attacked by zombies, the Chinese, or the Gubmint, and even if that were to happen, I'd be outclassed anyway, since I'm a pudgy white office worker who's about as tactically capable as that drunken Jedi video kid, and I doubt that Enemy ZomCommieGov Forces would announce their arrival beforehand.

Anyway back to the important stuff, like paying my bills and saving up to buy another motorcycle. :D

Re: "mental health", I think it's amazing that it takes two dozen dead 1st-graders before the right wing acknowledges the concept of any kind of health care at all...

11 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:56:33pm

re: #9 Amory Blaine

Also "mental health" will be used like a bludgeon. Not to usher people to better care, but somehow penalize and punish mental illness.

This is what I'm afraid of. I really do worry with it being heavily publicized and emphasized that Lanza on the autistic spectrum that some people will want to use this as an excuse to assume that everyone on the spectrum is a potential Lanza. Maybe it's mild paranoia but I really do worry about that sort of thing.

12 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:56:35pm
13 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:57:49pm

re: #9 Amory Blaine

Also "mental health" will be used like a bludgeon. Not to usher people to better care, but somehow penalize and punish mental illness.

Or at least just sweep the mentally ill 'under the rug', so to speak. I've heard a lot on right wing sites about how everything was great until the bleeding heart liberals started worrying about the rights of mental patients and then they all got turned loose on an unsuspecting society. There were abuses and neglect as well as people who weren't mentally ill, but were, in effect, incarcerated because of a wrong diagnosis.

14 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:58:09pm

The mental health distraction will include a huge dollop of forgetfulness about Reagan's record of dealing with the mentally ill.

15 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:59:07pm

re: #13 calochortus

Or at least just sweep the mentally ill 'under the rug', so to speak. I've heard a lot on right wing sites about how everything was great until the bleeding heart liberals started worrying about the rights of mental patients and then they all got turned loose on an unsuspecting society. There were abuses and neglect as well as people who weren't mentally ill, but were, in effect, incarcerated because of a wrong diagnosis.

Yeah, that kind of thing is why I get wary of people who pine for "the good old days." I tell you. We may live in a flawed time but I am glad I live when I do because I really think someone like me could have been institutionalized generations ago.

16 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:59:45pm

re: #12 jaunte

According to the local news that ended an hour ago. I don't have any details.

17 Alexzander  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:00:06pm

Even though they advertised it at the beginning of the episode, it looks like the interview with Mick North was postponed tilll tomorrow. Got swindled into watching a whole episode. Ugh.

18 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:02:47pm

re: #1 Alexzander

If it were purely an issue of mental health, you'd expect a more equal distribution between the genders. 60 of the last 61 mass shooters in the US were men, predominately young and white.

There are a number of extremely interwoven and complicated social/cultural factors at play.

Doesn't law enforcement have some frightening pseudoscience designed to bypass sentencing and parole and keep people in prison more or less forever? So people get designated "sociopaths" and whatever they call sex criminals.. I've heard it suggested those somehow get applied to black kids much more often than white ones.

But if the mass murders are mostly white, I can just imagine what it would be like if they reversed it and decided that white kids should be kept in prison forever.

19 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:02:52pm

re: #15 HappyWarrior

Yeah, that kind of thing is why I get wary of people who pine for "the good old days." I tell you. We may live in a flawed time but I am glad I live when I do because I really think someone like me could have been institutionalized generations ago.

I'd also like to stop the war between "Reagan emptied the institutions because he was cheap and heartless" and "The ACLU got crazy people turned loose because they're evil." Could we just maybe do the best we can for our citizens whether they are mentally ill, developmentally challenged, sick, whatever? I'll help support that because 1.) we all end up paying anyway and 2.) I'm really happy that I don't need that help myself, but I'd like to have the safety net there just in case.

20 EPR-radar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:03:49pm

It is also a distraction in another sense, in addition to the ways pointed out up-thread.

Lanza's madness, whatever its specifics, was an individual issue, and public policy isn't going to be able to deal with every individual issue.

However, the lack of gun control combined with the gun culture in the US is a kind of collective madness, and public policy most certainly can address this kind of collective craziness.

So it is very helpful for the RW to drill down into whatever details of Lanza they can find (or fabricate). That keeps the inquiry focused where the effects of public policy (especially gun control) are minimal and/or irrelevant.

21 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:04:21pm

re: #19 calochortus

I'd also like to stop the war between "Reagan emptied the institutions because he was cheap and heartless" and "The ACLU got crazy people turned loose because they're evil." Could we just maybe do the best we can for our citizens whether they are mentally ill, developmentally challenged, sick, whatever? I'll help support that because 1.) we all end up paying anyway and 2.) I'm really happy that I don't need that help myself, but I'd like to have the safety net there just in case.

Sure. Sounds good to me. I don't wish to relive past battles. I wish to create a better future. We can learn from the past of course too.

22 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:04:36pm

Remember when the cultural conservatives had their way with mental health issues, they classified homosexuality as a mental disorder. In the South, they sterilized people they considered "mentally deficient."

Welfare Sterilizations

Up until the 1980s, South Carolina kept its sterilization law in the books. This resulted in pressure for poorer women to get sterilized, and caused increased fear from black women of the family planning programs run by whites (Carpio, p. 77).

23 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:04:41pm

who are humans to define "sane"?

by the standard of any other animal, humans are not sane

24 Stanghazi  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:05:25pm

re: #9 Amory Blaine

Also "mental health" will be used like a bludgeon. Not to usher people to better care, but somehow penalize and punish mental illness.

DEATH PANELS

oh the irony we are about to witness.

25 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:06:16pm

watch, this will be a big NRA

perhaps their strategy will be to make a "modest proposal" kind of suggestion to force the point that nothing should be done

26 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:06:29pm

re: #22 dragonath

Remember when the cultural conservatives had their way with mental health issues, they classified homosexuality a mental disorder. In the South, they sterilized people they considered "mentally deficient."

Always disturbs me reading about some of this stuff because it's too recent for me.

27 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:06:43pm

re: #21 HappyWarrior

Sure. Sounds good to me. I don't wish to relive past battles. I wish to create a better future. We can learn from the past of course too.

Yeah, there are a lot of reasons why we are where we are and learning from it is good. I was speaking of the concept that assigning blame to a single party will somehow fix a complex problem that many things have created.

28 EPR-radar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:07:11pm

re: #24 Stanghazi

DEATH PANELS

oh the irony we are about to witness.

Irony is never in short supply. The party of "DEATH PANELS" also gave us "Let him die!" from the crowd as one of the greatest hits of their primary season.

29 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:07:26pm

Discovery Channel kicks Ted Nugent to the curb

....“I’ll tell you this right now, if Barack Obama becomes the president in November again, I will either be dead or in jail by this time next year,” the rocker said in April.

News of Nugent’s fall at Discovery comes the same day that the channel confirmed it is cancelling “American Guns,” a popular reality show that glamorizes a family that produces deadly weapons.

“‘American Guns’ concluded earlier this year,” the network’s prepared statement explains. “Discovery Channel chose not to renew the series and has no plans to air repeats of the show.”

30 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:08:13pm

re: #28 EPR-radar

Irony is never in short supply. The party of "DEATH PANELS" also gave us "Let him die!" from the crowd as one of the greatest hits of their primary season.

Yeah well that's the Ron Paul contingent for ya. A contingent that is much bigger than the establishment of the GOP would like to admit.

31 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:09:20pm

re: #22 dragonath

Remember when the cultural conservatives had their way with mental health issues, they classified homosexuality a mental disorder. In the South, they sterilized people they considered "mentally deficient."

Don't forget sterilizing women who were thought to be promiscuous. Like teenagers who were victims of rape...

32 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:10:18pm

re: #11 HappyWarrior

This is what I'm afraid of. I really do worry with it being heavily publicized and emphasized that Lanza on the autistic spectrum that some people will want to use this as an excuse to assume that everyone on the spectrum is a potential Lanza. Maybe it's mild paranoia but I really do worry about that sort of thing.

The hell of this is that there's no easy fix to young men going off their nut and making the world pay with the most explosive means available. "Mental health", "gun control", these things, in a way, are tentacles on the monster that is our broken national self. We're isolated from each other, our society is capitalist hyper-competitive with death as the main alternative to wealth, we commodify every last facet of our lives from waking to sleeping, we reward attention-whoring and indignity, families are broken, excuses are made to justify everything *except* looking in the mirror and taking responsibility, and we loooove our fantasies of revenge and drama, which we really cling to because we have nothing else to fill that hole of powerlessness.

And good fucking luck if you're born into this melee with a social disorder. Can't read the signals? Fuck you, loser! You get to die mentally before you die physically, and on your way there, everybody seems to make sport out of kicking the guy on the bottom, and you won't even understand why unless there's somebody there who will literally instruct you on how to feel and think.

I have a mild case of what was up until recently called Aspergers, and it's shitty enough without being stigmatized even more, because now "weird kids" have started killing their classmates and neighbors in double-digit quantities. I'm lashing out a little here because I'm angry at the thought that instead of having a compassionate discussion about these things, it's likely that the short-term end result for people with real problems will be having to endure even more social trouble. It hurts just thinking about it.

33 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:10:38pm

Some handy numbers at this link.

Canada's homicide rate at lowest level since 1966

Since the introduction of stricter gun laws in 1991, there has been a 65 per cent reduction in homicides by long guns, Statistics Canada data shows. The reduction in homicides involving any type of firearm was 37 per cent.

Statistics Canada released a report on Oct. 26, 2011, on homicides in Canada in 2010. That year, there were 170 shooting homicides, about 32 per cent of all homicides. The total homicide rate fell to its lowest level since 1966 (1.62 per 100,000 population).

34 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:11:28pm

re: #33 jaunte

Some handy numbers at this link.

Canada's homicide rate at lowest level since 1966

Don't worry, Steven Harper is hard at work killing the gun registry.

35 JRCMYP  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:11:57pm

Charles, I'm feeling pretty confident that not alot of people will fall for it. Because people who are mentally ill aren't going out en masse and killing people with knives, cars, airplanes, rocks, string, or any other possible method. But guns? Rising. Americans might be morons alot of the time, but when it comes to our kids? We're freaking on it.

36 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:13:29pm

re: #31 calochortus

I don't think it's much of a jump to assume that the same people who supported these programs also were the first to go for the whole "death panels" nonsense.

37 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:13:30pm

re: #32 Pawn of the Oppressor

The hell of this is that there's no easy fix to young men going off their nut and making the world pay with the most explosive means available. "Mental health", "gun control", these things, in a way, are tentacles on the monster that is our broken national self. We're isolated from each other, our society is capitalist hyper-competitive with death as the main alternative to wealth, we commodify every last facet of our lives from waking to sleeping, we reward attention-whoring and indignity, families are broken, excuses are made to justify everything *except* looking in the mirror and taking responsibility, and we loooove our fantasies of revenge and drama, which we really cling to because we have nothing else to fill that hole of powerlessness.

And good fucking luck if you're born into this melee with a social disorder. Can't read the signals? Fuck you, loser! You get to die mentally before you die physically, and on your way there, everybody seems to make sport out of kicking the guy on the bottom, and you won't even understand why unless there's somebody there who will literally instruct you on how to feel and think.

I have a mild case of what was up until recently called Aspergers, and it's shitty enough without being stigmatized even more, because now "weird kids" have started killing their classmates and neighbors in double-digit quantities. I'm lashing out a little here because I'm angry at the thought that instead of having a compassionate discussion about these things, it's likely that the short-term end result for people with real problems will be having to endure even more social trouble. It hurts just thinking about it.

It's a tough world being on the spectrum. Outsiders in our own world and where ever we go. I'm lucky to have some good friends though.

38 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:14:59pm

The other, even sadder aspect of this is that the mentally ill are more likely to be attacked than they are to be attackers. However you define 'mentally ill', even if it's with as loose a definition as having PTSD, Aspergers, or any of the other things that millions of Americans live with, those populations are more vulnerable than they are aggressive.

39 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:15:05pm

re: #31 calochortus

Don't forget sterilizing women who were thought to be promiscuous. Like teenagers who were victims of rape...

I've never gotten over realizing that conservatives are always in a rage that OTHER PEOPLE have babies. Always obsessed over resenting the fertility of other people. It's like the way some kinds of chimps spend more effort preventing each other from mating and hording females than actually mating - and they also kill each others' babies.

It must be the ugliest instinct possible. I think the codification and exaggeration of instincts like jealousy and sexual envy, bigotry etc are what end up believed to be "morality" by religious people whose theory-of-mind is wrong in every single respect.

40 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:15:54pm

re: #36 dragonath

I don't think it's much of a jump to assume that the same people who supported these programs also were the first to go for the whole "death panels" nonsense.

Got to be sure the "right" people reproduce. Then you can drag their lives out at the end for an extra 6 painful months...

41 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:16:07pm

I'm not a gun guy so I bring little to the discussion..Most of my life I've been around folks that are hunters and hobbyist and love guns passionately.

I've never met one hunter or owner that thought crazy people should own a weapon..Not one..I applaud them and that's very responsible.
Mental illness is not a real science..What is crazy to some is not to other docs. Who the hell knows who might snap and kill babies or not? We don't and never will.
So we must start choking off supplies of military style guns and ammo.
We must and pray we do..Steps in the right direction.
I'm sorry American babies..We are not doing enough to protect you.

42 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:16:15pm

re: #38 Obdicut

The other, even sadder aspect of this is that the mentally ill are more likely to be attacked than they are to be attackers. However you define 'mentally ill', even if it's with as loose a definition as having PTSD, Aspergers, or any of the other things that millions of Americans live with, those populations are more vulnerable than they are aggressive.

Yeah, Definitely. I know that I've been very fortunate not to have been a victim of any crimes.

43 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:17:17pm

re: #35 JRCMYP

Charles, I'm feeling pretty confident that not alot of people will fall for it. Because people who are mentally ill aren't going out en masse and killing people with knives, cars, airplanes, rocks, string, or any other possible method. But guns? Rising. Americans might be morons alot of the time, but when it comes to our kids? We're freaking on it.

I really am hoping this is the straw that breaks the camal's back. Because if it's not, I can't imagine how much more horrific such a tragedy would have to become before this nation stops listening to the gun cultists.

44 DelusionDeluge  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:18:18pm

The utter defensiveness of gun owners/right wingers in the wake of Sandy Hook is a classic case of doth protesting too much. Because when you start to really unravel the strings of this tragedy to see where they lead, you'll end up in the right wing fever swamp of survivalists, Beck-ites and Limbots in the throes of states rights and second amendment conspiracy fever dreams. They want to deflect, deflect, deflect... because not only are they exposed on the issue of assault weapons, but they are against paying any new taxes that could provide improved mental health care for the citizenry, or more (trained) security at schools. Indeed, they are for slashing just those things, plus the pay and benefits of educators. What we're hearing from conservatives this week is not the beginning of a constructive dialogue, but sound of still-fresh blood dripping from the hands of a significant portion of our nation.

45 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:18:54pm

This is all the more reason by the way to strongly discourage bullying and not just to shrug it off as kids being kids. Of course, not every kid who is bullied is going to murder or even get violent. We've gotta be better to each other. If you're a kid and see another kid being bullied. Speak out. If you're a parent, tell your kid to treat others how you'd want to be.

46 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:20:25pm

re: #43 Targetpractice

I really am hoping this is the straw that breaks the camal's back. Because if it's not, I can't imagine how much more horrific such a tragedy would have to become before this nation stops listening to the gun cultists.

About the same number of people die from gunshot wounds every day in this country as died in CT. This includes murder, suicide and accident, but it doesn't seem to bother us much. The human mind is an amazing thing in the way it processes information.

47 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:20:46pm

This isn't a mental health issue. It's the fact that a twenty year old could shoot 6 adults and 20 children to pieces and only have to reload twice.

48 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:21:26pm

And I am not saying this because I got bullied a little. I was guilty of a little bullying myself. There was one girl. Man, I still feel like crap thinking about how me and some friends treated her in elementary school. And then I later found out not long after I had Asperger's that she did too. I felt terrible. One thing that strikes me though thinking about her is no matter how cruel people were to her. She was always very kind.

49 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:23:54pm

re: #37 HappyWarrior

It's a tough world being on the spectrum. Outsiders in our own world and where ever we go. I'm lucky to have some good friends though.

Yeah. I grew up in "weird kid/pick on the scrub" times (early 80s) and when I think back, if anybody had been able to just tell me what the basic problem was at about age 8, life would have been totally different. I was saved by a couple of friendships with nice girls at key times, and the fact that my father indulged all of my hobbies and basically let me be an enthusiastic little nerd about whatever was on my radar, which was just as good as overt love and support to me.

I never once considered hurting anybody, not even people who tormented me. Now, I *did* make doodles of horrible things happening to them in my notebook margins... My drawings would get me removed from school as a threat these days.

When Columbine happened, though, I was only a year or two out of school, and my first reaction was "What took so long?". I'm not excusing mass murder, I'm saying it's not too big of a leap to imagine depressed, outcast, broken kids deciding to end it all and take everyone out with them. The PBS documentary "People Like Us: Class in America" does a good job of touching on some of the things that might drive marginal types over the edge.

It's more than just sound bites... We've met the enemy, and he is us.

50 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:25:40pm

re: #45 HappyWarrior

This is all the more reason by the way to strongly discourage bullying and not just to shrug it off as kids being kids. Of course, not every kid who is bullied is going to murder or even get violent. We've gotta be better to each other. If you're a kid and see another kid being bullied. Speak out. If you're a parent, tell your kid to treat others how you'd want to be.

That's another that sticks out to me, how old Lanza was when his mom yanked him out of school. I'll admit to being socially awkward and a loner in high school and being the subject of bullying as well as a lot of gossip. It would not surprise me that most of those describing Lanza as such either bullied him or saw him being bullied and did nothing.

I remember when the profiles of Harris and Klebold came out after Columbine, the same theme was there: social outcasts who were the subject of ridicule and bullying. It wasn't hard to understand after that came out why they had such contempt for authority and so much hatred for their fellow students.

51 Petero1818  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:26:22pm

re: #10 Pawn of the Oppressor

Re: "mental health", I think it's amazing that it takes two dozen dead 1st-graders before the right wing acknowledges the concept of any kind of health care at all...

I was thinking about this today as well. Imagine how strong the gun lobby is that it has GOP and conservatives practically willing to throw government money at mental health issues all to avoid legislation that would in essence cost the government very little and force private business to stop being merchants of death.

52 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:26:57pm

re: #48 HappyWarrior

And I am not saying this because I got bullied a little. I was guilty of a little bullying myself. There was one girl. Man, I still feel like crap thinking about how me and some friends treated her in elementary school. And then I later found out not long after I had Asperger's that she did too. I felt terrible. One thing that strikes me though thinking about her is no matter how cruel people were to her. She was always very kind.

I was mostly on the receiving end, but I was once one of a few "Me-Too"s to a pair of jerks in grade school who taunted a Orthodox Jewish boy who turned out to have a brain tumor that killed him less than a year after I first met him. When his younger brother began at the same school he told me of the pain I'd caused and told me he'd never forgive me for it. Those words stuck, and I've never forgiven myself either. I learned for the first time just how much of an asshole I could be and that discovery has haunted me ever since.

53 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:27:05pm

Not to take anything away from genuine cases, but I think it's interesting that some of the highest prevalences of ADHD are in states where mental health issues were historically stigmatized.

Image: adhd_chart2.jpg

54 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28:17pm

It's all a matter of how you frame the discussion. Of what you consider the topic to be.

If the topic is the run-of-the-mill murders, the ones committed in connection with stickups, or domestic disputes, or drug deals or gang fights or road rage or whatever, then yes, mental illness is hardly visible on the radar screen. Stickup artists are sane, to a point. They want money and they think they see how to get it.

If the topic is rampage violence, such as at Newtown, then mental health turns out to be a factor in about half of them.

The public discussion in most of the media, right now, and in Congress, seems to be primarily about rampage violence. Few of the proposals now under discussion stand any chance of affecting the rate at which the other, more common types of killings occur. But other efforts [outside of gun control] are steadily bearing fruit. Better medical care is saving gunshot victims who would otherwise have died. Stop-and-frisk drives are apprehending felons who are packing heat. Truce mediation efforts sometimes bring about an end to cycles of reprisals in cities torn by drug turf wars.

If we just go by the numbers, the ten thousand or so murders committed each year with guns are the main problem, and rampage killings are a footnote. They make headlines but they don't move the thousands-digit place in the overall numbers.

If we go by the sheer senselessness of the thing and the promise of the lives that are lost, then maybe rampage violence merits more attention than it would get just going by the numbers. If so, some attention to the way we miss chances to intervene in the lives of the going-insane is in order.

55 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:30:14pm

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

I was mostly on the receiving end, but I was once one of a few "Me-Too"s to a pair of jerks in grade school who taunted a Orthodox Jewish boy who turned out to have a brain tumor that killed him less than a year after I first met him. When his younger brother began at the same school he told me of the pain I'd caused and told me he'd never forgive me for it. Those words stuck, and I've never forgiven myself either. I learned for the first time just how much of an asshole I could be and that discovery has haunted me ever since.

It's how we learn from our mistakes. I think at that time I just wanted to fit in so badly that I was afraid of defending her lest I be made fun myself. And I think that's why a lot of kids go along with. I don't think they do it out of sincere maliciousness but man oh man peer pressure can be a fucker.

56 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:30:26pm

re: #50 Targetpractice

I remember when the profiles of Harris and Klebold came out after Columbine, the same theme was there: social outcasts who were the subject of ridicule and bullying. It wasn't hard to understand after that came out why they had such contempt for authority and so much hatred for their fellow students.

I think the connection between bullying and school shootings is not anywhere near that clear. I heard an interview with someone who had researched Columbine and said the shooters had not been bullied in any significant way.

57 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:33:03pm

re: #35 JRCMYP

Charles, I'm feeling pretty confident that not alot of people will fall for it. Because people who are mentally ill aren't going out en masse and killing people with knives, cars, airplanes, rocks, string, or any other possible method. But guns? Rising. Americans might be morons alot of the time, but when it comes to our kids? We're freaking on it.

Or bombs? In Bath, Michigan, in 1927, this guy planted dynamite in a school and killed 30-some kids, injured about another hundred. Then car-bombed himself and a couple of first-responders.

58 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:33:32pm

A Timeline of a Wingnut Gleefest at a Horrible Act of Violence

6PM-until this morning: This results in an absolute torrent of abuse from wingnuts, many insulting my looks, making sexualized jokes about me, calling me a “hypocrite” for supposedly ignoring a story I was writing about. About an hour into it, I turn off Twitter because it’s distracting me from organizing my thoughts and also it’s really unnerving, as a survivor of violence against women, to see folks like Ace of Spades get so excited at hearing about violence that they need to go find another woman to harass, to keep the thrill going. You know, under the cover of “outrage” about the supposed “ignoring” that’s going on.

The Usual Suspects

59 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:33:50pm

re: #56 calochortus

I think the connection between bullying and school shootings is not anywhere near that clear. I heard an interview with someone who had researched Columbine and said the shooters had not been bullied in any significant way.

I always heard that they were but I never read too much about Columbine other than the basics of the case.

60 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:34:13pm

re: #57 lostlakehiker

Clearly, we need to arm our teachers with bombs.

61 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:35:24pm

re: #56 calochortus

I think the connection between bullying and school shootings is not anywhere near that clear. I heard an interview with someone who had researched Columbine and said the shooters had not been bullied in any significant way.

Agreed, it's every bit as tenuous as mental illness being a deciding factor. There are millions of Americans who have been bullied who have not shot up school classrooms, but it also shows up as an element in a lot of past school shootings.

62 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:36:43pm

Klebold and Harris were bullied.

63 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:36:54pm

re: #48 HappyWarrior

And I am not saying this because I got bullied a little. I was guilty of a little bullying myself. There was one girl. Man, I still feel like crap thinking about how me and some friends treated her in elementary school. And then I later found out not long after I had Asperger's that she did too. I felt terrible. One thing that strikes me though thinking about her is no matter how cruel people were to her. She was always very kind.

Sorry dude.
We all have those memories and regrets we can't change
I lived in foster homes till I was 12. I was an angry kid that went to many schools and got in fights. I was adopted by a loving family that changed my life. But still even during high school I never picked on weaker kids..Hell I was an unwanted bastard. It was PE class and to kick some cock of the walk kids ass was my goal in life :) Oh Lordy who knows how many times I got suspended from PE?....I played college ball for 2 colleges and still several years later got permanently banned from a big church Basketball league..Freaking pussies.. I have matured and melo'd out..
Sorry you brought memories back.. Be well

64 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:37:15pm

I do wonder having a 11 year old brother who is fourteen and a half years younger me wonder how I'd treat him if I had been a peer of his and vice versa. Looking back on it, I was a really shy kid and I'd even describe myself as timid. I wanted people to like me so badly. So I probably went along with some crap that I shouldn't have. I never physically hurt anyone but for all I know I could have hurt someone mentally. Part of me wishes I could go back in time and see myself fifteen years ago so I can see where I've grown. I like to think I've become a good man. I have my flaws but I really hope that I've learned from past mistakes.

65 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:39:19pm

re: #59 HappyWarrior

It is something that is often brought up early on, as people look for reasons for seemingly inexplicable violence, but it isn't clear that there is a good correlation (as I understand it) Lots and lots of kids are bullied. I was, several people here have said they were. Lots and lots of kids play video games too, and that is often posited as indicator of a potential for violence, but there really isn't any predictive value.

66 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:40:52pm

re: #60 dragonath

Clearly, we need to arm our teachers with bombs.

If you read about what came to be called the Bath bombing, you find that the bomber was enraged about taxes, feeling that taxes used to build the school he bombed had ruined him. So the guy claimed to be an anti-tax crusader before the bombing. A proto-'sovereign citizen', if you will.

I do not post his name, calling him instead damnatio memoriae (Latin: 'damned in memory').

67 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:41:20pm

re: #62 Kronocide

Your source?

68 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:41:27pm

I don't give a flying shit how crazy, looney, mentally unhinged, stupid, misguided, abused, defunct, bullied, or psychotic a person is. They should not in any way, shape, or form have access to military grade weaponry.

What they're trying to lead us into pretty much involves psychoanalyzing every person in the country. Now, if it was done before you could buy a gun, then it'd make sense. But I doubt it. The media will push this idea, and we're going to have even more kids getting addicted on prescribed medication for every little thing, which will only make it worse in the long-run.

I'm sure the NRA will blather on about "well, we agree that outright crazy people shouldn't own guns. Since most of our supporters are already different shades of bat-shit, we'll make sure that anybody who has previously committed a mass-murder will need a 30-day waiting period before they can buy another."

69 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:41:53pm

re: #63 A Man for all Seasons

Sorry dude.
We all have those memories and regrets we can't change
I lived in foster homes till I was 12. I was an angry kid that went to many schools and got in fights. I was adopted by a loving family that changed my life. But still even during high school I never picked on weaker kids..Hell I was an unwanted bastard. It was PE class and to kick some cock of the walk kids ass was my goal in life :) Oh Lordy who knows how many times I got suspended from PE?....I played college ball for 2 colleges and still several years later got permanently banned from a big church Basketball league..Freaking pussies.. I have matured and melo'd out..
Sorry you brought memories back.. Be well

It's okay man. I'm good but I just needed to get that off my back. Now, there's a happy ending to this. I did end up being better to her as we got older and I really cherished the friendship I had with her. I was talking with my first best friend who moved away when we were in grade school and was one of the people I picked on her with. Anyhow, I told him that after all those years he had moved that she was one of the few people we had grown up that still remembered him when we were upperclassmen in high school.

70 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:42:09pm

re: #56 calochortus

I think the connection between bullying and school shootings is not anywhere near that clear. I heard an interview with someone who had researched Columbine and said the shooters had not been bullied in any significant way.

Well the definition of "significant" is the key thing there. If you're an angry, obsessive type, small stuff can mean a lot. I was just reading about Columbine myself, and supposedly one of the first people to call 911 was a student who had run into Harris (?) in the parking lot, who told him something like "I like you, so I'm telling you that you better leave".

Maybe they didn't get beaten up every day, but it certainly wasn't sunshine and roses for those two, either.

Bullying obviously isn't the only factor, though. There has to be a "perfect storm" of factors which lead to a mass killing. There are always multiple common elements; male, outcast, lonely, bullied, no empathy, broken home, possibly on anti-depressants, no guidance, no aims, no outlets, a healthy fantasy life built entirely around simulated interpersonal violence, and a friend or relative with a bunch of black-anodized hardware.

71 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:42:39pm

re: #62 Kronocide

Klebold and Harris were bullied.

And that likely made a difference with Klebold. From what I understand, Harris was a psychopath and he would have done evil no matter what. The bullying just focused his desire to do wrong onto his fellow students.

72 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:43:07pm

re: #67 calochortus

Your source?

My memory. I'm reading up now it appears I'm wrong.

73 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:44:33pm

re: #60 dragonath

Clearly, we need to arm our teachers with bombs.

Booby traps!

74 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:44:34pm

My Twitter timeline has been about the same boring bullshit all day. Fucking aye. What a bore. I might join a model railroad club instead.

75 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:45:20pm

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

I was mostly on the receiving end, but I was once one of a few "Me-Too"s to a pair of jerks in grade school who taunted a Orthodox Jewish boy who turned out to have a brain tumor that killed him less than a year after I first met him. When his younger brother began at the same school he told me of the pain I'd caused and told me he'd never forgive me for it. Those words stuck, and I've never forgiven myself either. I learned for the first time just how much of an asshole I could be and that discovery has haunted me ever since.

Kudos for letting that out, it's tough. I had a similar situation in school. Was a kid in the band, we both were sax players. Everybody gave him shit for how he looked, how weird he was. Always missing school for some reason.

Kid died...I think, shit, junior year? Leukemia (not sure the exact variant).

76 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:45:43pm

re: #68 Ghost of Tom Joad

I don't give a flying shit how crazy, looney, mentally unhinged, stupid, misguided, abused, defunct, bullied, or psychotic a person is. They should not in any way, shape, or form have access to military grade weaponry.

What they're trying to lead us into pretty much involves psychoanalyzing every person in the country. Now, if it was done before you could buy a gun, then it'd make sense. But I doubt it. The media will push this idea, and we're going to have even more kids getting addicted on prescribed medication for every little thing, which will only make it worse in the long-run.

I'm sure the NRA will blather on about "well, we agree that outright crazy people shouldn't own guns. Since most of our supporters are already different shades of bat-shit, we'll make sure that anybody who has previously committed a mass-murder will need a 30-day waiting period before they can buy another."

Hence the focus on mental illness, because it's an easy start to an argument against further gun control: "We both agree that mentally ill people shouldn't have guns...," before blathering on about how since any further regulation would punish "responsible gun owners," our focus should instead be on keeping such weapons out of the hands of the mentally ill. How? Fuck if I know, but hey, it sounds like "compassionate conservatism," doesn't it?

77 JRCMYP  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:47:24pm

re: #57 lostlakehiker

Or bombs? In Bath, Michigan, in 1927, this guy planted dynamite in a school and killed 30-some kids, injured about another hundred. Then car-bombed himself and a couple of first-responders.

All kinds of ways to go out in a blaze of glory (i.e. fertilizer too) but the method of choice is the one that is easy access--guns. Just like we made seat belts and other saftey methods in cars mandatory and it's made an impact on public health, the same needs to be done with guns. No sane person can see that isn't true. Because do I actually care that someone has a gun? No. No I don't. But I care that we have 290 Million guns in our country. Alot.

78 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:47:29pm

re: #70 Pawn of the Oppressor

High school generally isn't stuffed full of sunshine and roses for the majority of people.

David Cullen spent several years researching Columbine and came to the conclusion they weren't bullied. He could be wrong, but I see no reason not to believe him.

Google "Columbine bullying myth". It is instructive.

79 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:47:47pm

I don't see why we're talking about bullying.

The man was 20
he shot 5 to 10 year olds

80 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:48:45pm

re: #74 Gus

My Twitter timeline has been about the same boring bullshit all day. Fucking aye. What a bore. I might join a model railroad club instead.

That is a rabbit hole, you may never return.

81 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:49:10pm

re: #79 stabby

I don't see why we're talking about bullying.

The man was 20
he shot 5 to 10 year olds

Memories don't go away. Not that I am even justifying in anyway what he did but he could have chosen kids that age because he had bad memories from that age.

82 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:49:23pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

And that likely made a difference with Klebold. From what I understand, Harris was a psychopath and he would have done evil no matter what. The bullying just focused his desire to do wrong onto his fellow students.

People who are going to snap, are most likely going to snap regardless of what happens over the course of their life. Sure, somebody who has been abused throughout childhood or suffers other such psychological trauma will probably...have an episode...some people are just wired wrong. They get analyzed to death, but all the analysis never tells exactly why they snapped. It just tells us why they directed their rage at who they did.

It'll take major advances in neuroscience before we do.

83 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:50:31pm

re: #74 Gus

My Twitter timeline has been about the same boring bullshit all day. Fucking aye. What a bore. I might join a model railroad club instead.

Take up Minecraft instead, it'll be cheaper in the end.

84 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:50:32pm

re: #76 Targetpractice

"compassionate conservatism,"

Robin Williams: "Compassionate conservatism. What does that mean, a Volvo with a gun-rack?"

:-)

85 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:52:18pm

re: #78 calochortus

If "bullying" was the major reasoning behind what they did, we'd have mass-murders every hour on the hour.

86 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:52:56pm

re: #75 Ghost of Tom Joad

Kudos for letting that out, it's tough. I had a similar situation in school. Was a kid in the band, we both were sax players. Everybody gave him shit for how he looked, how weird he was. Always missing school for some reason.

Kid died...I think, shit, junior year? Leukemia (not sure the exact variant).

It's that he died before I knew how wrong I I'd been that really did a number on me. It hurts me to this day that I cannot make right the wrongs I did. I have done better since, and have never repeated that wrongdoing.

In many ways, I think my defense of Killgore, Avanti, and the since-banned Cognito in earlier times here was based on my desire to do right where I had once done wrong. Atonement.

87 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:53:36pm

re: #84 Ghost of Tom Joad

Compassionate conservatism was something the George Bush Senior was pushing.

He made some nice speeches and, get this, when one of Obama's very old speech were used as proof by the that Obama is a white-hating radical, that speech was little more than a slight rephrasing of George Bush's speech.

So, compassionate conservationism means white-hating socialist radical. Just ask anyone at the Republican websites. Compassion at best means RINO. They don't do caring.

88 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:54:09pm

As long as we're talking about bullying, this reminds me of some of the ways the school would administer "help". Middle school wasn't exactly the best time for me, in school or elsewhere.

One of the district psychologists decided to give me a piece of paper and instructed me to draw a picture of my family (it's not a very big one). So I did.

"Oh, there aren't any women"

I wasn't too thrilled with that response, so I replied 'You want women? Okay... here you go', and scribbled some long hair on one of the men.

I found out much later that the psychologist actually wrote that I had "gender issues(!!)". Even if I did! It shouldn't even matter.

This is the system we're working with. It needs a lot of work.

89 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:54:19pm

Mental health is not a distraction, this is a distraction....

O’Reilly And Guest Target Tarantino And Django Unchained In Segment On Violent Culture

I'm hiding my copy of Catcher in the Rye in a hole in the backyard.

90 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:54:27pm

re: #87 stabby

Compassionate conservatism was something the George Bush Senior was pushing.

He made some nice speeches and, get this, when one of Obama's very old speech were used as proof by the that Obama is a white-hating radical, that speech was little more than a slight rephrasing of George Bush's speech.

So, compassionate conservationism means white-hating socialist radical. Just ask anyone at the Republican websites. Compassion at best means RINO. They don't do caring.

Lot of respect for H.W Bush for signing ADA.

91 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:54:30pm

re: #82 Ghost of Tom Joad

People who are going to snap, are most likely going to snap regardless of what happens over the course of their life. Sure, somebody who has been abused throughout childhood or suffers other such psychological trauma will probably...have an episode...some people are just wired wrong. They get analyzed to death, but all the analysis never tells exactly why they snapped. It just tells us why they directed their rage at who they did.

It'll take major advances in neuroscience before we do.

And some people are just plain evil. We'll have to know more before we know what the damnatio memoriae of Newtown was.

92 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:54:36pm

er, as proof by the mini-Brietbarts. Remember The VETTING?

I even remember British repeating that shit.

93 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:55:39pm
94 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:56:24pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Mental health is not a distraction, this is a distraction....

O’Reilly And Guest Target Tarantino And Django Unchained In Segment On Violent Culture

I'm hiding my copy of Catcher in the Rye in a hole in the backyard.

*facepalm*

95 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:56:32pm

re: #88 dragonath

Maybe the problem isn't "the system" it's that psychology is mostly pseudo-science. And the parts of psychology that ARE science don't say the sorts of things that authorities find useful.

96 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:56:57pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Mental health is not a distraction, this is a distraction....

O’Reilly And Guest Target Tarantino And Django Unchained In Segment On Violent Culture

I'm hiding my copy of Catcher in the Rye in a hole in the backyard.

No, that's what the laypeople call bullshit. Anyhow, I think mental health is important but I do think it does distract to just shrug most of these mass murderers as simply being mentally ill. I think that's what people mean when they say it's a distraction.

97 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:57:00pm

re: #85 Ghost of Tom Joad

If "bullying" was the major reasoning behind what they did, we'd have mass-murders every hour on the hour.

Pretty much.

98 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:58:00pm

"No time for the old in and out, love. I've just come to read the meter"
99 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:59:19pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Mental health is not a distraction, this is a distraction....

O’Reilly And Guest Target Tarantino And Django Unchained In Segment On Violent Culture

I'm hiding my copy of Catcher in the Rye in a hole in the backyard.

I think everybody is their own lobbyist on this whole event. I'm hearing everyone's opinion and most of them seem to be saying "no you're wrong." It's very interesting and depressing to observe.

100 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:00:15pm

re: #99 Gus

I think everybody is their own lobbyist on this whole event. I'm hearing everyone's opinion and most of them seem to be saying "no you're wrong." It's very interesting and depressing to observe.

I object!

//

101 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:02:12pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

[Embedded content]


"No time for the old in and out, love. I've just come to read the meter"

Kubrick was pretty hard on modern society, wasn't he?

102 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:02:56pm

Luckily Django Unchained is just out, or O'Reilly would have to talk about the violence of Wesley Snipes in "Blade."

103 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:04:13pm

re: #99 Gus

I think everybody is their own lobbyist on this whole event. I'm hearing everyone's opinion and most of them seem to be saying "no you're wrong." It's very interesting and depressing to observe.

I'm only partially in the "meh" camp this time. There's much of the same old tired reactionary pissing match but there are a few new and interesting ideas being floated around this time. I don't think we're at a tipping point and it'll all fall apart next week when the next outrageous outrage arrives but it's not all depressing to me. There are still a few folks out there thinking. That's a good sign.

104 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:05:25pm

re: #88 dragonath

By the way let me add a story of my own.

When I was about 11 I was sent to a psychologist who never did figure out that my father was abusive over homework.

She gave me a long test and afterwards announced to me that "you have a problem with authority"

I was a smart, fairly intellectual kid, with hippy parents and one who was abusive in his own way. I knew perfectly well that I had been taught that authority is bad in the abstract, and that I was having actual problems with my father abusing it.

I told her "you could have just asked me that"

105 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:05:35pm

re: #95 stabby

Maybe the problem isn't "the system" it's that psychology is mostly pseudo-science. And the parts of psychology that ARE science don't say the sorts of things that authorities find useful.

Well, I think it's worth remembering that in the current system, people aren't doing things because they're altruists. As for the pseudo-science thing, I remember one of the psychologists that I was given using a EEC scan in a totally non-scientific manner.

Of course a fucking 8 year old isn't going to be able to concentrate on one thing at a time.

...so yeah, there'a a lot of work that needs to be done.

106 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:06:58pm

re: #95 stabby

Maybe the problem isn't "the system" it's that psychology is mostly pseudo-science. And the parts of psychology that ARE science don't say the sorts of things that authorities find useful.

I well remember the mid- to late-90's being the era of the brain pill pusher too. The girl I was involved with at the time had ADHD and what was later diagnosed by NY state psychs as Borderline Personality Disorder (long story short, she got involved with a Bad Boy who was a bit TOO bad and spent some time receiving state-paid treatment). During high school the big medical answer to her problems was to put her on a different pill every couple of weeks, because they had all this amazing new medicine... And what better target market than teens with problems? Shitty doctors, shitty system, shitty shrinks, shitty parenting... A fun time was had by all.

107 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:07:19pm

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

Kubrick was pretty hard on modern society, wasn't he?

So as are many directors and writers. Anyhow back to Tarantino. I want to see this movie, number one. Number two, even though I hated the Hostel and to a smaller extent the Saw movies because I just saw them as violent for the sake of violent without anything resembling plot. I think censoring them or blaming them for violence is wrong. I'm honestly pretty anti actual violence because of what I've seen on screen and in the news. And I think many are. Everyone responds to things differently though. You and I know this because you read history like I do. It's fascinating to me how people could come away from something like say the first world war and have two totally radically different mindsets to it.

108 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:08:53pm

re: #102 jaunte

Luckily Django Unchained is just out, or O'Reilly would have to talk about the violence of Wesley Snipes in "Blade."

I would ask if there is a scientific, peer reviewed study that proves that violent entertainment doesn't affect behavior development. Conversely, I would ask if there is a scientific, peer reviewed study proving that it doesn't affect behavioral development. Right now I'm just seeing anecdotal "evidence" from both sides. If we can point at Mattel M-16 posters. I'm sure it changes when it's conservative entertainment.

109 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:09:38pm

re: #104 stabby

Ah yes... the "do you think Superman is real?" tests. I remember feeling insulted and patronized at the same time.

Of course some clown decided to implement these kinds of tests to get jobs at warehouses and stuff nowadays.

110 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:10:31pm

What makes one man come out of war a pacifist and what makes one come out of war the planner of an even more destructive war. And everything in between. It makes you really wonder. Sorry pondering this big time because I guess that's what fascinates me about human nature. How we have shared experiences but our responses to those are so sharp in contrasts.

111 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:11:52pm

You have to look at the whole and you have to look at the parts.

112 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:11:58pm

re: #102 jaunte

Luckily Django Unchained is just out, or O'Reilly would have to talk about the violence of Wesley Snipes in "Blade."

Just tell me whatever pops into your head

"You're nothing to me... But another dead vampire."

Blade was a badass movie. I love the Blade/Twilight image meme floating around right now.

113 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:12:58pm

I don't remember a single question from that test.

I remember an earlier intelligence test that I was given because I was failing. I was very nearsighted and they'd put me at the back of the classroom. I couldn't see the board at all.

They had funny questions like "What is wrong with this statement 'room temperature is my favorite'"

Anyway they were very excited that my answers showed that I was intelligent.

114 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:14:11pm

We're all in this together so I want some interfaith self-blame.

//

115 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:14:35pm

re: #102 jaunte

Luckily Django Unchained is just out, or O'Reilly would have to talk about the violence of Wesley Snipes in "Blade."

Well, it also let Tarantino get in front of some older viewers he might not normally have been able to plug his movie to. For him, an appearance like this is going to be first and foremost about 'building the buzz" for his movie.

116 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:14:58pm

re: #109 dragonath

It was the books that made me feel insulted.

I think I had the famously bad physics book that Richard Feynman said was nonsense. Even at 9 I knew it was bullshit.

What makes a bike go? Energy!

117 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:15:49pm

re: #112 Pawn of the Oppressor

Just tell me whatever pops into your head

"You're nothing to me... But another dead vampire."

Blade was a badass movie. I love the Blade/Twilight image meme floating around right now.

Here you go:

Image: How_b3a304_722933.jpg

118 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:15:56pm

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

Kubrick was pretty hard on modern society, wasn't he?

Yes and no. I think much of it was a sense of history. Shakespeare, Beethoven, Stravinksy, Plato, Socrates, are all revolutionary and have resulted in violence. Separating the animal and the human is problematic at best.

119 calochortus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:18:16pm

I think that's it for me tonight. I hope everyone is able to solve the world's problems without me.

120 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:19:36pm

re: #116 stabby

Here's a depressing story. A couple of years ago, one of the nearby hoity-toity school districts decided they would punish some random football game streaker by putting him in a special needs program.

Being from one of the poorer families in the district, he had no recourse against the school. The guy was all distraught because he wasn't learning anything. All because the school administrators wanted to set an "example".

The students had some kind of a solidarity thing going on but the school didn't do anything, as far as I know, the guy graduated that way.

This mindset solves nothing.

121 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:19:49pm

re: #54 lostlakehiker

If the topic is rampage violence, such as at Newtown, then mental health turns out to be a factor in about half of them.
.

Doesn't matter. Listen to what the actual researchers say: There's no way we could create a good predictive criteria for people doing this. For every one person who does, there'll be a thousand, ten thousand more who fit the profile.

The way to deeply address it would be to embark on a gigantic, huge, massive campaign to really overhaul mental health in this country in every way, which would require vast amounts of spending, socialized mental health insurance-- and, really, single-payer down the line, since mental health can't be separated out.

None of the GOP assholes now bloviating about mental health would be willing to actually spend enough and do enough to address the root causes. They just want some magic 'killer detector' that we can pass kids through.

122 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:21:38pm

re: #121 Obdicut

Which is why we should do away with weapons of mass destruction.

123 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:22:21pm

re: #119 calochortus

I think that's it for me tonight. I hope everyone is able to solve the world's problems without me.

I'm hard at work on the cure for cancer, and I think Gus is handling Middle East peace. Think Killgore got assigned ending world hunger.

//

124 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:24:32pm

re: #122 CarleeCork

Which is why we should do away with weapons of mass destruction.

Calling guns weapons of mass destruction isn't useful or helpful and just serves to confuse the issue further.

125 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:24:45pm

re: #120 dragonath

wow, that's evil

my own highschool had a policy that you are failed from a class if you are late 10 times. And the definition of "late" was "not entirely in your seat at the second bell"

I almost failed electronics because my locker was at the other end of the school from the cafeteria and the electronics lab was back again at the first end. There was actually not enough time to reliably run back and forth even if you sprinted.

After I graduated they changed that number to 7 then down to 5.

God!

126 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:24:54pm

re: #122 CarleeCork

Which is why we should do away with weapons of mass destruction.

Eventually.

127 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:25:34pm

re: #114 Gus

We're all in this together so I want some interfaith self-blame.

//

I nearly puked when CNN seriously addressed "Where was god in all this?" as an actual journalistic question at lunchtime today. Star of the Q&A was some pastor local to the killings. Answers include:

A. He wasn't, because god isn't real.
B. Read the Bible. God is OK with killing kids... It's kind of his thing.
C. Here's some confused theological bullshit for you, because we've talked about it a lot, and basically we've concluded that critical thinking comes from the Devil.
D. FAITH IS TEH AWESOME ZOMG NEVAR QUESTION IT
E. All of the above, or none of it... Watching CNN will make you suicidal.

128 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:25:54pm

re: #123 Targetpractice

I'm hard at work on the cure for cancer, and I think Gus is handling Middle East peace. Think Killgore got assigned ending world hunger.

//

Think Killgore got assigned ending world hunger.

Eat yer weeds!
Most homeowners have a week's worth of dandelion salads in their yards.

129 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:26:17pm

re: #115 Dark_Falcon

Well, it also let Tarantino get in front of some older viewers he might not normally have been able to plug his movie to. For him, an appearance like this is going to be first and foremost about 'building the buzz" for his movie.

I saw the 1/2 hour special on it last night. Man, It looks excellent to me.
I can't wait to put into the Library. It has that unforgiven feel to it.

130 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:28:26pm

re: #116 stabby

It was the books that made me feel insulted.

I think I had the famously bad physics book that Richard Feynman said was nonsense. Even at 9 I knew it was bullshit.

What makes a bike go? Energy!

Maybe just the Mr. Roberts of physics

131 jaunte  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:28:59pm
132 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:30:15pm

re: #131 jaunte

That was back when they used the poor as furniture, too.

133 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:30:18pm

re: #131 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Yeah, speaking of the sequester, apparently looking at the latest GOP offers, predictions of economic doom if taxes go up on millionaires were gravely exaggerated. Or at least the ones made by John of Orange.

134 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:30:26pm

re: #131 jaunte

[Embedded content]

"Listen all I am proposing that we cut our Army budget to 60%. We're already spending a lot as is."

135 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:30:36pm

Heh, even in college, physics books have bad parts. Like the writer doesn't know how to solve something so he just glosses over it.

But mostly not. I actually found out what energy is in college.

136 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:31:44pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

Eat yer weeds!
Most homeowners have a week's worth of dandelion salads in their yards.

You know we'll be talking before spring time planting.right? I want it to be interesting.. Not the same old corn and beans shit..I'm getting excited for spring

137 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:32:00pm

re: #124 Obdicut

Calling guns weapons of mass destruction isn't useful or helpful and just serves to confuse the issue further.

I disagree. The gun used did horrendous damage to 26 people in under 10 minutes. Multiple wounds on 20 children.

That isn't what our Founding Fathers were talking about.

138 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:32:15pm
139 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:32:43pm

re: #130 A Man for all Seasons

I realize now that I had a highly sensitive bullshit meter when I was a little kid.

That must be rare.

140 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:33:48pm

re: #124 Obdicut

Calling guns weapons of mass destruction isn't useful or helpful and just serves to confuse the issue further.

Agreed. The term "weapons of mass destruction" has a specific meaning, referring to nuclear, radiological, biological, and chemical weapons. That definition should be maintained.

141 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:34:29pm

re: #125 stabby

Yeah, I decided to revisit the story. It's worse than I remember. It was actually at a basketball game.

Friends and supporters of the Parkland High School student who dashed nearly naked through a crowded gymnasium last month tried in vain Tuesday to quiz school leaders on why the streaker was forced to transfer.

Parent Roxane Guzie, whose son Tony attends Parkland, said other students have committed assault or theft and been allowed to stay in school.

...

Parkland officials did not give a direct answer to the question. Superintendent Louise Donohue cited rules that bar school personnel from discussing student disciplinary matters.

"Fuzzy" has said he met with the superintendent earlier this month, and she told him he would be expelled if he did not commute to a private school in Weissport [that's 25 miles away, btw] for at least the remainder of the school year.

Educare, the company that runs that school, touts itself online as a provider of "therapeutically sound alternative educational placement for students who have difficulty functioning in the regular educational environment."

Yeah, fuck these people.

Even as this was happening, the school was protecting a star football player from a violent criminal charge. He ended up going to Penn State on an athletic scholarship but got expelled from the college.

142 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:34:44pm

When something was supposed to be an explanation and it didn't actually explain anything, I felt insulted.

It might be related to my father being an outspoken agnostic - I was already aware that religious explanations are bullshit, ie so far from being sensible that they're not even lies. So I applied the same standard to physics and math and everything else. If an explanation wasn't an explanation I felt immediately disappointed.

143 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:36:40pm

re: #140 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. The term "weapons of mass destruction" has a specific meaning, referring to nuclear, radiological, biological, and chemical weapons. That definition should be maintained.

Call it what you want, when 20 children are mutilated in under 10 minutes, I call it mass destruction.

144 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:37:26pm

re: #136 A Man for all Seasons

You know we'll be talking before spring time planting.right? I want it to be interesting.. Not the same old corn and beans shit..I'm getting excited for spring

Nice! This is about the time of year I start thinking of next years experiments.

145 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:37:51pm

re: #141 dragonath

Yeah, I decided to revisit the story. It's worse than I remember. It was actually at a basketball game.

Yeah, fuck these people.

Even as this was happening, the school was protecting a star football player from a violent criminal charge. He ended up going to Penn State on an athletic scholarship but got expelled from the college.

A violent criminal playing football at Penn State? I'm semi-surprised he didn't fit right in.

/spits on the rapist Sandusky.

146 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:38:51pm

re: #141 dragonath

I got to go.

But some of my first schools were the opposite of authoritarian - and they werent' good either.

Hippy schools.

One somehow never got around to teaching anything. Called a school it was no more than day care.

Another one, public, but somewhat "experimental" in hippy Berkeley, they put too many kids and too many grades in one class. And so it was just chaos where no one learned much.

147 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:39:05pm

re: #143 CarleeCork

I don't like deforming language trying to expand it. I'm very keen on the proper meaning of words, and I maintain that attitude even in fraught times.

148 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:41:05pm

re: #146 stabby

I got to go.

But some of my first schools were the opposite of authoritarian - and they werent' good either.

Hippy schools.

One somehow never got around to teaching anything. Called a school it was no more than day care.

Another one, public, but somewhat "experimental" in hippy Berkeley, they put too many kids and too many grades in one class. And so it was just chaos where no one learned much.

As in so many other things, going to either extreme is folly. Ultimately, the best policies are found within 30-40 points of center (50 being the outer edge on either side).

149 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:41:54pm

re: #137 CarleeCork

I disagree. The gun used did horrendous damage to 26 people in under 10 minutes. Multiple wounds on 20 children.

That isn't what our Founding Fathers were talking about.

That has nothing to do with calling them "weapons of mass destruction". Fuck it, never mind. Just don't expect people to know what the hell you're talking about when you talk about banning weapons of mass destruction.

150 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:42:01pm

re: #142 stabby

When something was supposed to be an explanation and it didn't actually explain anything, I felt insulted.

It might be related to my father being an outspoken agnostic - I was already aware that religious explanations are bullshit, ie so far from being sensible that they're not even lies. So I applied the same standard to physics and math and everything else. If an explanation wasn't an explanation I felt immediately disappointed.

Dude..You attitude is strange towards science and math. You don't step into a college class thinking you know what is bullshit or not. You learn first and apply those skills later.
/

151 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:43:22pm

Not even winter yet and I'm already hating the cold. Blah. Any of you all got spare tickets to Hawaii laying around?

152 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:43:30pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

The guy didn't have such a great college career either. Ironically, Paterno benched him after just one fumble. Either he really didn't like the guy, or was trying (in retrospect) to keep people from digging deeper.

153 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:43:32pm

re: #140 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. The term "weapons of mass destruction" has a specific meaning, referring to nuclear, radiological, biological, and chemical weapons. That definition should be maintained.

Yeah, that's also a dumb definition, though. But there's no reason to make it dumber.

A chemical weapon that can kill one twenty people isn't a WMD any more than a gun is.

154 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:43:43pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

As in so many other things, going to either extreme is folly. Ultimately, the best policies are found within 30-40 points of center (50 being the outer edge on either side).

I feel the same way about journalism

Mainstream journalism is a big disappointment.

Alternative journalism is so incompetent it borders on fraud.

Take your pick.

155 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:45:37pm

Quenin T. (sic) is on Leno.. they will show another clip

156 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:46:35pm

re: #153 Obdicut

Yeah, that's also a dumb definition, though. But there's no reason to make it dumber.

A chemical weapon that can kill one twenty people isn't a WMD any more than a gun is.

Yes, but Saddam Hussein launched chemical attacks that wiped out entire villages. I'd call that a use of WMDs. Or am I misreading your point.

157 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:47:18pm

re: #155 A Man for all Seasons

Quenin T. (sic) is on Leno.. they will show another clip

I saw some clips in the latest FoD video with Samuel L. Jackson and Anne Hathaway. It was pretty funny. I like those videos because we get to see actors and actresses who may not normally see together in film do some funny stuff together.

158 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:48:15pm

re: #150 A Man for all Seasons

disagree.
If you can follow all of the steps of the math then you have something real.

If you can't then something is missing.

If you can derive answers you have something.

If you can't, they fucked up.

If you have alternative definitions and you can't transform one into the other, you're missing something.

Etc.

If you're being given descriptive words instead of methods, it's not math.

159 Ojoe  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:48:37pm

Well all approaches to this problem ought to be taken, mental health AND gun control.

Laura's law would have helped in my town, google Aaron Bassler.

And the 2nd amendment would be well served by bolt action single shot rifles and nothing more. Maybe with a scope. But that's it.

The big clips etc etc are just insane.

Good night from Northern California.

160 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:50:27pm

re: #147 Dark_Falcon

I don't like deforming language trying to expand it. I'm very keen on the proper meaning of words, and I maintain that attitude even in fraught times.

Agreed.. We need to first define all weapons and what their purpose is.
Otherwise that collectors 9mm PPK I have locked away that has never seen a shell could be labeled a WMD. That would be a bummer.
*wink*

161 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:51:42pm

re: #152 dragonath

The guy didn't have such a great college career either. Ironically, Paterno benched him after just one fumble. Either he really didn't like the guy, or was trying (in retrospect) to keep people from digging deeper.

Perhaps Paterno had learned a lesson about the importance of weeding out vicious and/or amoral people. If this was after he first had been told about Sandusky (which form what you said it was), he might well have pushed the rotter away as a defensive measure.

But that represents a good bit of conjecture on my part. Though it also represents how my own mind focused in on a malefactor and related it to the discussion, which in part deals with malefactors. So that's my self-analysis for the day.

162 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:52:10pm

re: #153 Obdicut

Yeah, that's also a dumb definition, though. But there's no reason to make it dumber.

A chemical weapon that can kill one twenty people isn't a WMD any more than a gun is.

So, how many people have to die to call something a WMD?

163 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:52:34pm

re: #160 A Man for all Seasons

Agreed.. We need to first define all weapons and what their purpose is.
Otherwise that collectors 9mm PPK I have locked away that has never seen a shell could be labeled a WMD. That would be a bummer.
*wink*

9mm short, right?

164 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:53:10pm

re: #162 CarleeCork

[holds arms wide as they go] "THIS MANY!"

Jeeze, didn't you know that?

165 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:53:12pm

Give me a number. I'd like to clear this up.

166 Ojoe  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:53:21pm

re: #162 CarleeCork

2.

167 stabby  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:53:44pm

pi

168 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:54:29pm

re: #161 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I thought about that too.

169 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:56:59pm

re: #158 stabby

disagree.
If you can follow all of the steps of the math then you have something real.

If you can't then something is missing.

If you can derive answers you have something.

If you can't, they fucked up.

If you have alternative definitions and you can't transform one into the other, you're missing something.

Etc.

If you're being given descriptive words instead of methods, it's not math.

Maybe I'm not following your logic...That's cool.. But you can't question anything you until you learn all the laws and all the therories in that book they give you.. Then you question and think about the math and challenge excepted practice..
We stand on the shoulders of great scientists and thinkers before us.

170 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 8:59:40pm

OK

171 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:00:31pm

It's rather sad that it took the death of 20 children to take Benghazi off the minds of the wingnuts. Juicy report comes out today and they're too busy shoring up the defenses against gun regulation.

172 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:02:01pm

re: #171 Targetpractice

It's rather sad that it took the death of 20 children to take Benghazi off the minds of the wingnuts. Juicy report comes out today and they're too busy shoring up the defenses against gun regulation.

We've been killing people since 9/12 but that doesn't seem to matter. At least that's what I'm told.

173 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:02:06pm

Lets go one step further, how many children between the ages of 5 and 7 have to die to use the term WMD!

174 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:03:06pm

In America you get to die for your cause and then live forever after you die.

175 funky chicken  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:03:13pm

The Aurora shooter and the Newtown shooter both came from families who would have easily been able to afford mental health care if it had been wanted. The Newtown killer's mother chose instead to spend the money on weapons and trips to the shooting range. While I find that to be deranged behavior, access to low cost mental health care wasn't an issue in either of these cases. That's what liberals should respond, IMHO.

176 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:03:28pm

You don't really die.

177 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:03:53pm

re: #173 CarleeCork

Lets go one step further, how many children between the ages of 5 and 7 have to die to use the term WMD!

Wasn't it Winston Churchill that said,' It's all a matter of proportions '

178 Chrysicat  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:05:36pm

re: #4 dragonath

I think it's code for "warehouse anyone on the autism spectrum, just like we did before 1975"

I kinda like being able to live with my parents even though I'm incapable of living on my own, thanks kindly, and I think some others would get violent if they became aware they were in danger of being committed...

179 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:05:58pm

re: #177 A Man for all Seasons

Wasn't it Winston Churchill that said,' It's all a matter of proportions '

There's a quote attributed to Stalin that I've always liked. Death of one man is a tragedy, death of millions is a statistic. I'm not sure who actually said it and that's really beside the point because it makes me think about the nature of death.

180 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:06:06pm

Is it even possible to securely store assault weapons at your residence?

In a life or death situation most any gun owner would trade away the contents of the gun safe. The owners who leave weapons unsecured at any time risk them getting into the wrong hands. And no matter how well an owner attempts to secure them, a criminal who is determined enough will eventually get them. Once they are stored in a residence, weapons can not be considered absolutely secured, period.

Maybe gun owners should have to purchase gun liability insurance to cover their arsenals.

181 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:07:36pm
Alcohol and drug abuse are far more likely to result in violent behavior than mental illness by itself. In the National Institute of Mental Health’s E.C.A. study, for example, people with no mental disorder who abused alcohol or drugs were nearly seven times as likely as those without substance abuse to commit violent acts.

Then why is alcohol abuse listed in the DSM under Mental disorders?

I think we are having a big problem with semantics.

182 alpuz  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:08:40pm

re: #171 Targetpractice

Crowder's gotta be bummed. Thunder stolen.

183 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:10:27pm

re: #180 Mich-again

Is it even possible to securely store assault weapons at your residence?

In a life or death situation most any gun owner would trade away the contents of the gun safe. The owners who leave weapons unsecured at any time risk them getting into the wrong hands. And no matter how well an owner attempts to secure them, a criminal who is determined enough will eventually get them. Once they are stored in a residence, weapons can not be considered absolutely secured, period.

Maybe gun owners should have to purchase gun liability insurance to cover their arsenals.

Was reading just earlier that the gunman in Clackamas stayed over at the house of the friend whose gun he stole to go on his little rampage. Apparently in the weeks prior, he'd been talking about moving and selling all his stuff online. The night prior to the shooting, he tells his friend he needs to leave and he needs a gun. His friend, who apparently in retrospect felt all of that odd, did not take any action to secure his rifle.

Personally, I think in such a scenario, your ass should be sitting in front of a jury as at least an accomplice.

184 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:13:16pm

re: #183 Targetpractice

Was reading just earlier that the gunman in Clackamas stayed over at the house of the friend whose gun he stole to go on his little rampage. Apparently in the weeks prior, he'd been talking about moving and selling all his stuff online. The night prior to the shooting, he tells his friend he needs to leave and he needs a gun. His friend, who apparently in retrospect felt all of that odd, did not take any action to secure his rifle.

Personally, I think in such a scenario, your ass should be sitting in front of a jury as at least an accomplice.

I'd be more inclined to call the charge Involuntary Manslaughter than Accessory Before the Fact, but that's just me trying to figure out exactitudes.

185 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:15:23pm

re: #180 Mich-again

Is it even possible to securely store assault weapons at your residence?

In a life or death situation most any gun owner would trade away the contents of the gun safe. The owners who leave weapons unsecured at any time risk them getting into the wrong hands. And no matter how well an owner attempts to secure them, a criminal who is determined enough will eventually get them. Once they are stored in a residence, weapons can not be considered absolutely secured, period.

Maybe gun owners should have to purchase gun liability insurance to cover their arsenals.

A well build safe can secure a firearm or valuable item well enough as to require the use of special tools and time to break in. That's a sufficient standard of security in my eyes, especially if paired to a proper alarm system.

186 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:16:16pm

re: #183 Targetpractice

Personally, I think in such a scenario, your ass should be sitting in front of a jury as at least an accomplice.

The right of owning weapons comes along with a responsibility to secure them at all times to protect others. Which is impossible.

187 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:18:09pm

Another retailer has bailed on the nuts, Academy Sports and Outdoors has pulled assault weapons from their website. They used to feature quite an arsenal, including Bushmaster. It appears that all the semi-auto rifles are gone, except .22 rimfire. Academy does not actually sell guns online, they just advertise them for the stores.

188 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:19:15pm

re: #121 Obdicut

Doesn't matter. Listen to what the actual researchers say: There's no way we could create a good predictive criteria for people doing this. For every one person who does, there'll be a thousand, ten thousand more who fit the profile.

The way to deeply address it would be to embark on a gigantic, huge, massive campaign to really overhaul mental health in this country in every way, which would require vast amounts of spending, socialized mental health insurance-- and, really, single-payer down the line, since mental health can't be separated out.

None of the GOP assholes now bloviating about mental health would be willing to actually spend enough and do enough to address the root causes. They just want some magic 'killer detector' that we can pass kids through.

Well, heck. One of the root causes of these rampages is the easy availability of large-magazine rifles.

That has a technical fix.

Another is that stolen weapons work for the thief. That, too, has a technical fix. Weapons can be made in such a way that they don't work except for the owner. Or at least, if fired by someone other than the owner they call 911 all on their own. Or something.

But there are people who had jolly well been identified as dangerous before they went on their rampage, and the authorities said yes, we know, but our hands are tied. He hasn't done anything that would justify us stepping in.

It wouldn't take a massive overhaul of the whole system to adjust the rules here in the direction of earlier intervention. That intervention might take the form of treatment, or offers of treatment. Or it might take the form of seeing to it that the guy doesn't have easy access to guns.

If the odds of somebody going postal are 1 in 1000, that's actually way, way higher than it is for the general population. That's information.

189 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:21:23pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

I'd be more inclined to call the charge Involuntary Manslaughter than Accessory Before the Fact, but that's just me trying to figure out exactitudes.

I can certainly agree with that. One would think "responsible gun owners" would agree that if they fail in being "responsible" and their gun is used in the commission of a crime, they should have to answer for it.

But another that stuck out to me in the cases of Laughner, Holmes, Clackamas, and now Lanza is the contrast in training. The first three had virtually no training that is verifiable and so made basic mistakes, Laughner with the reload and Holmes and Clackamas with gun jams. By contrast, Lanza had plenty of training and familiarity with his weapon and was able to use it efficiently to end a lot of lives. Call me crazy, but I think that should sort of weigh on any recommendation to familiarize and train children in gun safety in school.

190 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:21:25pm

I don't know if Bushmaster's Man Card has been revoked but it sure looks like their meal ticket is headed for the shredder.

191 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:23:12pm

re: #190 Shiplord Kirel

I don't know if Bushmaster's Man Card has been revoked but it sure looks like their meal ticket is headed for the shredder.

i think they'll be fine long term, but short term they're gonna take a large hit.

192 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:23:42pm

Colorado Gov. Hinkenlooper wants change to mental health laws in CO>[Link: denver.cbslocal.com...]

193 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:23:46pm

re: #188 lostlakehiker

Well, heck. One of the root causes of these rampages is the easy availability of large-magazine rifles.

That has a technical fix.

Another is that stolen weapons work for the thief. That, too, has a technical fix. Weapons can be made in such a way that they don't work except for the owner. Or at least, if fired by someone other than the owner they call 911 all on their own. Or something.

But there are people who had jolly well been identified as dangerous before they went on their rampage, and the authorities said yes, we know, but our hands are tied. He hasn't done anything that would justify us stepping in.

It wouldn't take a massive overhaul of the whole system to adjust the rules here in the direction of earlier intervention. That intervention might take the form of treatment, or offers of treatment. Or it might take the form of seeing to it that the guy doesn't have easy access to guns.

If the odds of somebody going postal are 1 in 1000, that's actually way, way higher than it is for the general population. That's information.

Yeah, I'm not sure the NRA's gonna take the suggestion that people be put on a black list for being identified as "at risk" and effectively banned from gun ownership very well. Hell, on that count, I'm pretty sure the ACLU will be in their corner.

194 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:24:24pm

re: #191 Dark_Falcon

i think they'll be fine long term, but short term they're gonna take a large hit.

We will also work on the long term.

195 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:25:56pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

I'd be more inclined to call the charge Involuntary Manslaughter than Accessory Before the Fact, but that's just me trying to figure out exactitudes.

What if people who kept firearms at their residence had to take responsibility for it's actions, like owning a pit bull.

196 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:27:16pm

re: #189 Targetpractice

I can certainly agree with that. One would think "responsible gun owners" would agree that if they fail in being "responsible" and their gun is used in the commission of a crime, they should have to answer for it.

But another that stuck out to me in the cases of Laughner, Holmes, Clackamas, and now Lanza is the contrast in training. The first three had virtually no training that is verifiable and so made basic mistakes, Laughner with the reload and Holmes and Clackamas with gun jams. By contrast, Lanza had plenty of training and familiarity with his weapon and was able to use it efficiently to end a lot of lives. Call me crazy, but I think that should sort of weigh on any recommendation to familiarize and train children in gun safety in school.

I'm gonna say we need to wait and see on that one. We don't know how old he was when he was taught to shoot or how he was acting at the time. So your point is well taken, but any lessons learned recommendation based on it will need to wait for more facts to become known.

Training, however, always makes someone for dangerous. Again, we come back to the examples of Charles Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald, both of whom were made deadly-accurate shots with a rifle by their Marine Corps training.

197 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:27:51pm

Bushmaster is just one company with a shitty advertising campaign. There are well over two dozen different makers of AR-15's in the United States. I don't own one and personally I don't get the appeal, but that's how popular the platform is.

198 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:30:39pm

re: #196 Dark_Falcon

I'm gonna say we need to wait and see on that one. We don't know how old he was when he was taught to shoot or how he was acting at the time. So your point is well taken, but any lessons learned recommendation based on it will need to wait for more facts to become known.

Training, however, always makes someone for dangerous. Again, we come back to the examples of Charles Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald, both of whom were made deadly-accurate shots with a rifle by their Marine Corps training.

True, in the end, most of these recommendations and suggestions should carry a big asterisk saying "Based on available information." A lot is still coming in and it'll probably be weeks or months before anybody can paint an educated guess as to who Adam Lanza was and what was going through his head that day. But right now, it's the small things we should look at and think hard on, because they may have far-reaching implications in how we respond.

199 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:32:18pm

re: #195 Mich-again

What if people who kept firearms at their residence had to take responsibility for it's actions, like owning a pit bull.

I'm not opposed to that, with the provision that a person is not liable if they acted with 'due care', which in this case would likely mean a proper safe.

We wouldn't hold a person responsible if he owned a properly trained a socialized pit bull that was stolen from him and then tortured into a monster by bog-fighters. We'd say that the original owner exercised proper care, but and that the wrong was done by the criminals who stole his property despite his diligent efforts to secure it.

200 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:32:49pm

re: #173 CarleeCork

Lets go one step further, how many children between the ages of 5 and 7 have to die to use the term WMD!

If you're trying not to sound hysterical, it's not working.

WMD is a *military* term for non-conventional weapons, i.e. things that aren't fueled by gunpowder or explosives. Want a body count number? Let's say more than 50 casualties inflicted per individual unit of ordnance expended, plus associated damage to structure and environment.

The mass-destructive aspect of nuclear weapons is obvious. A couple of air-dropped chemical weapons can wipe out a small town and render it uninhabitable for years. Biological weapons can kill and contaminate well beyond their point of use.

One guy with a rifle shooting 20 people is only "massive" against a background level of 0 deaths. In war, it's a busy day at the office. There's a difference.

201 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:36:51pm

re: #199 Dark_Falcon

I think in Indiana all handguns need to be secured by a trigger lock.. If a crime or anything happens you are responsible legally.
Trigger locks can save countless lives.

202 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:37:02pm

Just blame it on what you don't believe in and you'll be safe.

203 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:38:17pm

Remember to blame it all on belief system other than your own. Always a safe bet.

204 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:39:08pm

re: #203 Gus

Remember to blame it all on belief system other than your own. Always a safe bet.

Shoot those who insult Guns-lam?

205 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:40:24pm

re: #204 Pawn of the Oppressor

Shoot those who insult Guns-lam?

Could be that. Just find a way to blame it on others.

206 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:40:45pm

re: #189 Targetpractice

I can certainly agree with that. One would think "responsible gun owners" would agree that if they fail in being "responsible" and their gun is used in the commission of a crime, they should have to answer for it.

But another that stuck out to me in the cases of Laughner, Holmes, Clackamas, and now Lanza is the contrast in training. The first three had virtually no training that is verifiable and so made basic mistakes, Laughner with the reload and Holmes and Clackamas with gun jams. By contrast, Lanza had plenty of training and familiarity with his weapon and was able to use it efficiently to end a lot of lives. Call me crazy, but I think that should sort of weigh on any recommendation to familiarize and train children in gun safety in school.

Does anyone who shows up at a gun range get to fire whatever weapons they show up with? I am guessing there is some kind of permit process to gain access, right? Hopefully its not like a golf driving range where anyone shows up with any clubs and pays gets to fire away at the targets.

But if it isn't like a golf driving range and approvals are actually required, then who approved Adam Lanza to go ahead and fire his mom's assault weapons so he could become proficient?

This case will help shape the USA's priorities between the right to keep and bear arms and the right to keep and bear children.

207 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:41:13pm

re: #205 Gus

Could be that. Just find a way to blame it on others.

OK.

What went wrong, it's all Gus's fault!

///

208 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:42:18pm

re: #189 Targetpractice

I can certainly agree with that. One would think "responsible gun owners" would agree that if they fail in being "responsible" and their gun is used in the commission of a crime, they should have to answer for it.

Serious question, what happens in Switzerland if your home-stored reservist weapon is stolen and used in a crime?

209 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:42:27pm

re: #187 Shiplord Kirel

I hope this is a refocusing of the gun culture back to where it belongs.

Pennsylvania has an interesting system that integrates hunters into the park system. It's called the State Game Lands, and they're maintained with funds from hunting licenses.

They also put out a magazine called the Pennsylvania Game News, which as wiki puts it...

is the PGC's monthly publication, dealing with wildlife conservation and the financial & legislative functions of the Game Commission.

Of course this is probably considered high socialism anywhere deer farms are located.

210 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:42:28pm

re: #206 Mich-again

Does anyone who shows up at a gun range get to fire whatever weapons they show up with? I am guessing there is some kind of permit process to gain access, right? Hopefully its not like a golf driving range where anyone shows up with any clubs and pays gets to fire away at the targets.

But if it isn't like a golf driving range and approvals are actually required, then who approved Adam Lanza to go ahead and fire his mom's assault weapons so he could become proficient?

This case will help shape the USA's priorities between the right to keep and bear arms and the right to keep and bear children.

From what I remember reading, until recently there was quite a bit of 'free firing' in the woods near the town.

211 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:44:10pm

re: #173 CarleeCork

Lets go one step further, how many children between the ages of 5 and 7 have to die to use the term WMD!

Just curious. Do you apply the WMD label to conventional explosives delivered via US military drone strike in Pakistan?

The Bureau of Investigative Journalism found that between 391 – 780 civilians were killed out of a total of between 1,658 and 2,597 and that 160 children are reported among the deaths.

Is the US military employing WMDs against Pakistani children? People have tried to explain to you why the term is neither helpful nor useful in this context, to no avail. So I'm left wondering if you think the United States is violating treaties and international law with regards to the use of WMDs, or are you simply insisting on using the term inaccurately because it makes a convenient rhetorical cudgel?

212 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:45:17pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

OK.

What went wrong, it's all Gus's fault!

///

Yeah, well. In the end. I don't care. Same old shit.

213 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:46:13pm

re: #199 Dark_Falcon

I'm not opposed to that, with the provision that a person is not liable if they acted with 'due care', which in this case would likely mean a proper safe.

We wouldn't hold a person responsible if he owned a properly trained a socialized pit bull that was stolen from him and then tortured into a monster by dog-fighters. We'd say that the original owner exercised proper care, but and that the wrong was done by the criminals who stole his property despite his diligent efforts to secure it.

I'm not talking about staffies, I mean pit bulls.

214 Gus  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:47:09pm

Seen it before. It's all boring.

215 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:47:41pm

Obama faces backlash on possible Hagel nomination for Pentagon

Hey look, now Chuck Goddam Hagel is The Enemy.

216 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:48:13pm

re: #201 A Man for all Seasons

I think in Indiana all handguns need to be secured by a trigger lock.. If a crime or anything happens you are responsible legally.
Trigger locks can save countless lives.

Let's be honest. Most Trigger locks, especially cable locks are easily defeated by a pair of bolt cutters. A gun safe bolted to the floor is the way to go, one of the few instances where I'm okay with using the red locktite.

217 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:49:44pm

re: #213 Mich-again

I'm not talking about staffies, I mean pit bulls.

I know. But pit bulls aren't all nasty and it is possible to properly raise and train one to be a good dog. But they do represent a risk, here's an old article that gives some good perspective.

218 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:50:38pm

re: #215 dragonath

Obama faces backlash on possible Hagel nomination for Pentagon

Hey look, now Chuck Goddam Hagel is The Enemy.

I'm going out on a limb here and just saying it probably doesn't matter who he nominates, the wingshits will say it was the worst possible choice anyways.

219 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:51:54pm

Treat all autoloading guns like machine guns. Register them with the ATF and make them subject to a $250 transfer fee for any sale, just like machine guns. That's already law that has passed Constitutional muster. Pistols, rifles, and shotguns. Make the maximum capacity of any gun six rounds. Ban any clip or magazine with a capacity of greater than six rounds except for licensed gun ranges where you can go and rent a high-cap clip to get your jollies. Pistols and semi-auto rifles would be limited to six round clips. Shotguns and pump-action rifles would be required to have plugs to limit the capacity of the gun to six rounds.

This isn't taking away your guns. This is common sense.

Institute a trade program, funded by the Feds, to replace larger clips with smaller capacity clips. Cheap. No hardship.

This bullshit has got to end.

220 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:53:39pm

re: #206 Mich-again

Does anyone who shows up at a gun range get to fire whatever weapons they show up with? I am guessing there is some kind of permit process to gain access, right? Hopefully its not like a golf driving range where anyone shows up with any clubs and pays gets to fire away at the targets.

But if it isn't like a golf driving range and approvals are actually required, then who approved Adam Lanza to go ahead and fire his mom's assault weapons so he could become proficient?

This approval system is made of green pieces of paper called "money" which we exchange for goods and services.

I don't remember if Connecticut has any "assault weapons" laws anymore (which is a bullshit term by the way - are there weapons that aren't used for assault? And if you mean "assault rifle", his mom didn't own any machine guns, just semi-autos) but if they still have an Evil Features law, Mrs. Lanza's guns must have conformed to the specifications of that law. If they still have a high-capacity magazine ban, then both he and his mother were clearly in violation of the law to have 30-round magazines, but a gun range can't necessarily be expected to enforce every letter of a cosmetics-based gun law that had a grandfathering provision on magazine capacity.

If Lanza was over the minimum age requirement for entry (let's not forget that legally he was an adult) and his rifle and magazines were legal, he's just another guy going shooting. It's not like he put up a sign at the bench that said "DO NOT DISTURB - TRAINING FOR MASS MURDER IN PROGRESS".

Evidently he didn't drive and didn't like to go anywhere without his mother anyway. She was probably there with him, helping him "prepare" for what-the-fuck-ever. She might have even thought that his learning a physical skill that required concentration and coordination would do him some good. I also doubt very much that he was showing outward signs of wanting to murder six-year-olds. Unfortunately, she made a Big Parenting Mistake, and we all get to pay for it.

221 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:56:30pm

re: #215 dragonath

Obama faces backlash on possible Hagel nomination for Pentagon

Hey look, now Chuck Goddam Hagel is The Enemy.

Chuck Hagel isn't good enough for them. Fine how about he nominates William Ayers as a joke just to troll them. Seriously, who is good enough for them? I really want to know.

222 Kragar  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:56:41pm

Obama announces clone-Reagan to be nominated as Secretary of Defense, detractors want to know why the delay

223 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:59:34pm

re: #222 Kragar

Obama announces clone-Reagan to be nominated as Secretary of Defense, detractors want to know why the delay

or object to the fact that it's not the original Reagan. Seriously, I've never seen a party so hellbent on opposing one president just for the sake of opposing him like I have with the Republicans. Hagel's a guy who if the Republicans hadn't gone in the deep end could have been a potential Republican administration cabinet member. And hell, I think I remember seeing Sotomayor's name briefly mentioned as a possible Bush appointee too after the O'Connor resignation I believe. They've gone off the deep-end.

224 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 9:59:56pm

I'm looking at these maps someone linked to earlier. "Firearm murders per 100,000 population"- states like Maine, Michigan, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, and Vermont are the lowest, with "0 to 2".

The highest is Louisiana, way ahead of everybody, with "10 to 16"...

Hey look

The constitutional change — pushed by the National Rifle Association — would require “strict scrutiny” of any restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms. The legal standard would require courts, when asked, to determine whether the state’s gun laws demonstrate “a compelling governmental interest” and are “narrowly defined.” If not, they are to be thrown out as unconstitutional.

225 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:01:05pm

re: #220 Pawn of the Oppressor

I think you are wrong about whoever shows up and pays gets to fire whatever weapons they carried in. At least if you looked at their business insurance it does. They may go ahead and let anyone who knocks on the door play GI JOE. but I doubt that is what they are supposed to be doing. But you seem to know this business very well so I will go ahead and assume that whoever shows up at whatever gun range anywhere can fire whatever weapons they like as long as they bring enough pieces of green paper.

226 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:01:53pm

That's right- 73% of Louisianans are paranoid that Obama's going to take their guns away.

227 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:04:09pm

=re: #226 dragonath

That's right- 73% of Louisianans are paranoid that Obama's going to take their guns away.

From the people who brought you Shariah Law bans.

228 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:04:24pm

re: #219 austin_blue

Treat all autoloading guns like machine guns. Register them with the ATF and make them subject to a $250 transfer fee for any sale, just like machine guns. That's already law that has passed Constitutional muster. Pistols, rifles, and shotguns. Make the maximum capacity of any gun six rounds. Ban any clip or magazine with a capacity of greater than six rounds except for licensed gun ranges where you can go and rent a high-cap clip to get your jollies. Pistols and semi-auto rifles would be limited to six round clips. Shotguns and pump-action rifles would be required to have plugs to limit the capacity of the gun to six rounds.

This isn't taking away your guns. This is common sense.

Institute a trade program, funded by the Feds, to replace larger clips with smaller capacity clips. Cheap. No hardship.

This bullshit has got to end.

Why six? Same number as the average revolver? The Clinton-era ban was 10, if I remember right. Anything higher was Law Enforcement Only. Re-instituting that restriction would work, especially because the hardware to support it is already in circulation.

229 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:06:06pm

If the term Assault Weapon is unacceptable then what should be the term to describe the boundary between the Daisy air rifle and the machine gun where we say that is enough killing capability for John Q. Public to carry around.

230 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:08:32pm

re: #214 Gus

Seen it before. It's all boring.

231 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:13:50pm

re: #219 austin_blue

I don't own an AR15 or an AK47 but I do own an M1 Carbine. Functionally they're pretty much in the same ballpark. Gas operated, intermediate cartridge rifles. The Carbine doesn't have the AR15's range, accuracy or flat trajectory, it's bullets don't tumble in ballistic gelatin, it was designed two decades earlier, and it has the all important wood stock and normal rifle profile which makes it look innocuous in comparison to the other two rifles.

My M1 Carbine has been in my family longer than I have, originally bought from the US government as surplus for under 20 dollars. Treating it, the Garand and the Ruger 10/22 rimfire as machineguns isn't going to make them any safer, since these guns are virtually never involved in crime to begin with. Making them NFA also means states can ban them entirely, as many do with some or all NFA weapons.

232 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:14:45pm

re: #228 Pawn of the Oppressor

Why six? Same number as the average revolver? The Clinton-era ban was 10, if I remember right. Anything higher was Law Enforcement Only. Re-instituting that restriction would work, especially because the hardware to support it is already in circulation.

Because the more you make the rampage shooter pause to reload, the better the chance he can be piled on. The shooter in Tucson was tackled while reloading. Imagine how limited the damage would have bee if he had 6 shots instead of seventeen. Also, if a legal gun owner can't do the job with six shots, he or she is incompetent and should be eaten by the bear.

233 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:15:18pm

re: #225 Mich-again

I think you are wrong about whoever shows up and pays gets to fire whatever weapons they carried in. At least if you looked at their business insurance it does. They may go ahead and let anyone who knocks on the door play GI JOE. but I doubt that is what they are supposed to be doing. But you seem to know this business very well so I will go ahead and assume that whoever shows up at whatever gun range anywhere can fire whatever weapons they like as long as they bring enough pieces of green paper.

Well it depends on the range. It's like liquor stores... Clientele, ownership, and location run the gamut from classy and by-the-book to trashy and full of yahoos. Every place has rules. Obviously there are safety rules, and there is often supervision and help available on the range. Some places have the facilities and permits to allow fully automatic fire from licensed NFA gun owners, police in training, etc. or if you want to, you can rent and shoot a machine gun for X dollars per magazine, that sort of thing. But most places (like 90 out of 100), you show ID and rent a range spot for $20-30 and they'll have rules like "No Rapid Fire", and often you can rent an individual gun with X rounds of ammunition for a fee, or bring your own. If you look or act sketchy, they have the right to refuse service, or call the police, like any other business.

An adult who comes in, presents ID, brings their legally permissible rifle, pays their money, shoots holes in the paper, obeys the rules, and says "thank you" when they leave, is not going to raise any eyebrows. What they do watch out for is nervousness, unsafe behavior, dangerous range conduct, or outward signs of an imminent suicide attempt, which happens often enough to be a problem.

234 prairiefire  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:16:37pm

re: #215 dragonath

Nah.

235 Mich-again  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:18:06pm

re: #233 Pawn of the Oppressor

Great post.

236 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:18:10pm

re: #229 Mich-again

If the term Assault Weapon is unacceptable then what should be the term to describe the boundary between the Daisy air rifle and the machine gun where we say that is enough killing capability for John Q. Public to carry around.

"Semi-automatic rifle", since that's what we're actually talking about. Adding "with a detachable magazine" is a mouthful, though.

237 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:18:28pm

re: #231 goddamnedfrank

I don't own an AR15 or an AK47 but I do own an M1 Carbine. Functionally they're pretty much in the same ballpark. Gas operated, intermediate cartridge rifles. The Carbine doesn't have the AR15's range, accuracy or flat trajectory, it's bullets don't tumble in ballistic gelatin, it was designed two decades earlier, and it has the all important wood stock and normal rifle profile which makes it look innocuous in comparison to the other two rifles.

My M1 Carbine has been in my family longer than I have, originally bought from the US government as surplus for under 20 dollars. Treating it, the Garand and the Ruger 10/22 rimfire as machineguns isn't going to make them any safer, since these guns are virtually never involved in crime to begin with. Making them NFA also means states can ban them entirely, as many do with some or all NFA weapons.

Tough shit. Register it and limit it's capacity to six rounds. How is that a hardship?Only the buyer pays the transfer fee.

238 dragonath  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:25:18pm
239 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:26:53pm

re: #237 austin_blue

Tough shit. Register it and limit it's capacity to six rounds. How is that a hardship?Only the buyer pays the transfer fee.

If you aren't compensating for the value of the old mags that's an unconstitutional taking of property. What's the difference between six and the eight rounds en block clip for the Garand other than a pedantic insistence that six should be the new limit? How is a Ruger 10/22 rimfire with a ten round rotary mag intrinsically more dangerous than a concealable six shot handgun.

By and large it is concealable handguns use in the majority of crimes.

240 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:29:39pm

re: #231 goddamnedfrank

I don't own an AR15 or an AK47 but I do own an M1 Carbine. Functionally they're pretty much in the same ballpark. Gas operated, intermediate cartridge rifles. The Carbine doesn't have the AR15's range, accuracy or flat trajectory, it's bullets don't tumble in ballistic gelatin, it was designed two decades earlier, and it has the all important wood stock and normal rifle profile which makes it look innocuous in comparison to the other two rifles.

My M1 Carbine has been in my family longer than I have, originally bought from the US government as surplus for under 20 dollars. Treating it, the Garand and the Ruger 10/22 rimfire as machineguns isn't going to make them any safer, since these guns are virtually never involved in crime to begin with. Making them NFA also means states can ban them entirely, as many do with some or all NFA weapons.

That's funny, my M1 Carbine is the same - my father bought it out of a barrel of surplus Carbines in a sporting goods store in the 60's sometime. I think he even paid $20, too. It's an Underwood, 1943 on the receiver but with post-war replacement parts. It rattles, it's sloppy, and I never could group better than half a foot at 25 yards with it, but it's a family thing. He shipped it to me out of New England because it's an "assault weapon" under state law and he didn't want any possible legal trouble. We had 5-round magazines for it, but they were aftermarket, crappy quality things.

I did a serial and markings lookup once and found that our rifle had been issued to an army unit from Maine. It even has holes in the stock for the grenade launcher sights (!). Oddly enough, my AR is exactly the same length and bulk, but far, far more "dangerous". The technology change in just 30 years is astonishing.

241 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:30:24pm

re: #231 goddamnedfrank

I don't own an AR15 or an AK47 but I do own an M1 Carbine. Functionally they're pretty much in the same ballpark. Gas operated, intermediate cartridge rifles. The Carbine doesn't have the AR15's range, accuracy or flat trajectory, it's bullets don't tumble in ballistic gelatin, it was designed two decades earlier, and it has the all important wood stock and normal rifle profile which makes it look innocuous in comparison to the other two rifles.

My M1 Carbine has been in my family longer than I have, originally bought from the US government as surplus for under 20 dollars. Treating it, the Garand and the Ruger 10/22 rimfire as machineguns isn't going to make them any safer, since these guns are virtually never involved in crime to begin with. Making them NFA also means states can ban them entirely, as many do with some or all NFA weapons.

A true piece of history, that. And I'd say I don't think such a weapon should be hobbled or destroyed. I favor going after the nutcase part of the equation, improving detection of people likely to kill. But I am open to the implementation of legal standards for the safe storage of firearms, since I think such laws would have a positive impact. I also think the problems with reporting cases of mental illness to NICS need to be given a hard look and HIPAA may need to be altered accordingly.

242 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:36:04pm

re: #240 Pawn of the Oppressor

That's funny, my M1 Carbine is the same - my father bought it out of a barrel of surplus Carbines in a sporting goods store in the 60's sometime. I think he even paid $20, too. It's an Underwood, 1943 on the receiver but with post-war replacement parts. It rattles, it's sloppy, and I never could group better than half a foot at 25 yards with it, but it's a family thing. He shipped it to me out of New England because it's an "assault weapon" under state law and he didn't want any possible legal trouble. We had 5-round magazines for it, but they were aftermarket, crappy quality things.

I did a serial and markings lookup once and found that our rifle had been issued to an army unit from Maine. It even has holes in the stock for the grenade launcher sights (!). Oddly enough, my AR is exactly the same length and bulk, but far, far more "dangerous". The technology change in just 30 years is astonishing.

It's the plastic and metal over wood that did it, I think. That's why the Thompson remained more popular within the Army than the M3 'Grease Gun'. Even though it was a good deal heavier, it was felt strongly to look more like a gun should, with a stock that good be properly polished and metal surfaces that could be made to shine. The weight even worked in its favor sometimes, since its forged steel construction gave a feeling of something built to last.

Practicality can easily lose out to emotion and a desire to present a good image, humans being what we are.

244 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:36:52pm

re: #239 goddamnedfrank

If you aren't compensating for the value of the old mags that's an unconstitutional taking of property. What's the difference between six and the eight rounds en block clip for the Garand other than a pedantic insistence that six should be the new limit? How is a Ruger 10/22 rimfire with a ten round rotary mag intrinsically more dangerous than a concealable six shot handgun.

By and large it is concealable handguns use in the majority of crimes.

The feds will will buy back the old mags, as I originally posted, and replace them with six shot mags. No taking. Eight shot en bloc mags will be replace with six shot en blocs at the Feds cost. No taking. As for the Ruger, tough shit. Plug four of the chambers and get right with the law.

245 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:37:14pm

re: #238 dragonath

What Does It Mean That Adam Lanza Might Not Have Been Able to Feel Pain?

Oh good grief.

Bullshit, just bullshit. That is media "zebra hunting" of the worst sort.

246 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:40:28pm

re: #242 Dark_Falcon

It's the plastic and metal over wood that did it, I think. That's why the Thompson remained more popular within the Army than the M3 'Grease Gun'. Even though it was a good deal heavier, it was felt strongly to look more like a gun should, with a stock that good be properly polished and metal surfaces that could be made to shine. The weight even worked in its favor sometimes, since its forged steel construction gave a feeling of something built to last.

Practicality can easily lose out to emotion and a desire to present a good image, humans being what we are.

Yes. At heart, I'm a steel-and-wood kind of guy. My "collection" (low single digits) is entirely WW2 themed, by coincidence more than design. The Garand in particular, I see as a kind of living reminder of WW2 and Korea, and what was asked of that generation.**

** besides the veterans themselves, duh! ;)

247 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:40:33pm

re: #199 Dark_Falcon

I'm not opposed to that, with the provision that a person is not liable if they acted with 'due care', which in this case would likely mean a proper safe.

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

But I am open to the implementation of legal standards for the safe storage of firearms

So you are going to tell gun owners they are required to purchase a safe? Put some mechanism into place for compliance, approving manufactured safes for this purpose, etc? What about the rugged individualist who wants to build his own safe? Will ATF come to the home to observe the homemade safe in situ? Sounds like BIG GOVERNMENT to me...not to mention difficult or impossible to enforce, which means unlikely to accomplish much of anything.

248 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:42:13pm

re: #240 Pawn of the Oppressor

That's funny, my M1 Carbine is the same - my father bought it out of a barrel of surplus Carbines in a sporting goods store in the 60's sometime. I think he even paid $20, too. It's an Underwood, 1943 on the receiver but with post-war replacement parts. It rattles, it's sloppy, and I never could group better than half a foot at 25 yards with it, but it's a family thing. He shipped it to me out of New England because it's an "assault weapon" under state law and he didn't want any possible legal trouble. We had 5-round magazines for it, but they were aftermarket, crappy quality things.

I did a serial and markings lookup once and found that our rifle had been issued to an army unit from Maine. It even has holes in the stock for the grenade launcher sights (!). Oddly enough, my AR is exactly the same length and bulk, but far, far more "dangerous". The technology change in just 30 years is astonishing.

My Carbine is actually pretty decent for accuracy within iron sights range, but yeah, it rattles. It's been the go to gun for hunting wild boar in Santa Barbara County for decades. Back in the day my Dad's friends used to borrow it for their own pig hunting trips. Even transitioned no problem to the the Cor-Bon 100% copper loads mandated by the lead free zone condor law. I have some grandfathered USGI fifteen round mags that aren't transferable.

249 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:43:48pm

re: #244 austin_blue

The feds will will buy back the old mags, as I originally posted, and replace them with six shot mags. No taking. Eight shot en bloc mags will be replace with six shot en blocs at the Feds cost. No taking. As for the Ruger, tough shit. Plug four of the chambers and get right with the law.

Why are you hung up on six rounds? Just curious where that became the magic number.

250 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:44:16pm

re: #245 Dark_Falcon

Bullshit, just bullshit. That is media "zebra hunting" of the worst sort.

Yes. Just as the NRA on Friday will talk about mental illness as opposed to high cap mags, which were instrumental in his ability to shoot 6 adults and twenty students to pieces.

Wanna make a bet on that? I'll win.

Merry Christmas! Bang bang bang!

251 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:48:22pm

re: #249 goddamnedfrank

Why are you hung up on six rounds? Just curious where that became the magic number.

Revolvers. The majority of shotguns. Common sense on a reasonable number. Again, if you can't kill the bear with six shots, you deserve to be bear food.

252 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:48:50pm

How about tubular magazine lever action .22s like the Marlin 39A. Do you measure six rounds by shorts, longs or long rifle cartridges.

253 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:51:43pm

Tubular magazine is part of the gun. Do you send it in to a gunsmith and have him cut down the tube and follower? Marlin 39A/39/1897 is the oldest, longest continually produced shoulder firearm in the world, do you go back and mangle all those 100 year old plus antiques?

254 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:54:24pm

Hey Lizards.. Took my sleeping pill about 15 min ago.. That means in 30 min I'm gone from this world.. This shit rocks..I don't sleep much so they gave this stuff that knocks you the hell out.. But the amazing thing is I have such sharp awesome dreams.. I mean..Crap I'll wake up and go, was that just the fucking 3d version of wizard of oz? If I slept walked, I'd end up passed out at Sean Penn's Hollywood party.
Tick..Tick..tick

255 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:54:47pm

re: #243 Kragar

Fischer: God will recreate America after impending global collapse

Millenarianism at work. Watch out for flying bullshit.

256 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:55:38pm

re: #252 goddamnedfrank

How about tubular magazine lever action .22s like the Marlin 39A. Do you measure six rounds by shorts, longs or long rifle cartridges.

By the shorts. Poor you! Too bad, how sad, if you have to spend more time loading your plinker. Again, not a taking.

Any other bullshit exceptions you'd like to mention?

257 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:55:52pm

re: #254 A Man for all Seasons

TOC! Hello, you!

258 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:56:33pm

re: #250 austin_blue

Yes. Just as the NRA on Friday will talk about mental illness as opposed to high cap mags, which were instrumental in his ability to shoot 6 adults and twenty students to pieces.

Wanna make a bet on that? I'll win.

Merry Christmas! Bang bang bang!

I haven't got the money to make a bet. I've got bills to pay.

259 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:57:53pm

re: #256 austin_blue

Fling an insult, get a downding. I've applied that rule to Goddamnfrank, so it is only fair that I apply it when he is the one being insulted.

260 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:00:23pm

re: #257 Dancing along the light of day

TOC! Hello, you!

Hi You! Hope you are well.not much happening..I'm in a holding pattern till the new year...And I've lost my Christmas spirit this year...Everything is wrong.. I just sent the kids checks for Christmas and a card. My heart is heavy

261 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:01:55pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

Fling an insult, get a downding. I've applied that rule to Goddamnfrank, so it is only fair that I apply it when he is the one being insulted.

Fair enough. No worries, DF.

262 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:05:11pm

re: #261 austin_blue

Fair enough. No worries, DF.

It's good. We all get heated once in a while.

263 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:05:17pm

re: #256 austin_blue

By the shorts. Poor you! Too bad, how sad, if you have to spend more time loading your plinker. Again, not a taking.

Any other bullshit exceptions you'd like to mention?

I'm sorry, I respect you, but I think you're going in the extreme opposite direction as the RWNJs who are spinning all of this to pitch that their "black rifles" be untouched.

AR-pattern, AK-pattern, and other "assault" rifles should be hobbled, if not banned outright, for civilian sale and use, because there's just no good reason for civilians to have that kind of firepower on tap (even if one just has it as a giant black penis extension out at the range). But to hobble antique firearms that were designed specifically for civilian use (or even WWII/Korean War rifles like the M1 and Garand) just wouldn't be right and it wouldn't solve a damned thing with what's been going on the past few years or more.

264 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:08:19pm

re: #261 austin_blue

You should see this, though. The Chinese aren't at our level yet, but they're trying hard to get there, and unlike the old USSR they're paying attention to logistics:

In the last five years China has been training more and more of its sailors to resupply ships at sea. It’s now common to see a Chinese supply ship in the Western Pacific refueling two warships at once. This is a tricky maneuver and the Chinese did not learn to do it overnight. They have been doing this more and more, first refueling one ship at a time with the receiving ship behind the supply ship and then the trickier side-by-side method. This enables skilled supply ship crews to refuel two ships at once.

This is all part of a Chinese navy effort to enable its most modern ships to carry out long duration operations. For the last six years the Chinese have been sending flotillas (containing landing ships, destroyers, and frigates) on 10-20 day cruises into the East China Sea and beyond. Because of this, China began sending small detachments (two warships and a supply ship) to join the anti-piracy patrol off Somalia. This means sending a new detachment every three months, on a trip that takes it across the Indian Ocean and back.

The Chinese have been working hard on how to use their new classes of supply ships. These are built to efficiently supply ships at sea. This is called underway replenishment and it means transferring fuel and other supplies to moving ships, and the Chinese were seen moving fuel to two ships at once for five years now. This requires skill and practice and the Chinese are out there obtaining both, so much so that it’s become a regular practice.

265 austin_blue  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:12:13pm

re: #263 TedStriker

I'm sorry, I respect you, but I think you're going in the extreme opposite direction as the RWNJs who are spinning all of this to pitch that their "black rifles" be untouched.

AR-pattern, AK-pattern, and other "assault" rifles should be hobbled, if not banned outright, for civilian sale and use, because there's just no good reason for civilians to have that kind of firepower on tap. But to hobble antique firearms that were designed specifically for civilian use (or even WWII/Korean War rifles like the M1 and Garand) just wouldn't be right and it wouldn't solve a damned thing with what's been going on the past few years or more.

Here is my original post on the subject:

"Treat all autoloading guns like machine guns. Register them with the ATF and make them subject to a $250 transfer fee for any sale, just like machine guns. That's already law that has passed Constitutional muster. Pistols, rifles, and shotguns. Make the maximum capacity of any gun six rounds. Ban any clip or magazine with a capacity of greater than six rounds except for licensed gun ranges where you can go and rent a high-cap clip to get your jollies. Pistols and semi-auto rifles would be limited to six round clips. Shotguns and pump-action rifles would be required to have plugs to limit the capacity of the gun to six rounds.

This isn't taking away your guns. This is common sense.

Institute a trade program, funded by the Feds, to replace larger clips with smaller capacity clips. Cheap. No hardship.

This bullshit has got to end."

I don't think that's unreasonable. We can agree to disagree.

Night, Lizards. Sweet scaly dreams.

266 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:14:20pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

It's good. We all get heated once in a while.

LOL tell me about it.. A few weeks ago when NK launched a long range missile there were people here engaged in a serious discussion and I made a joke about not worrying about it..It's only a beach ball. OMG
OMG they freaked out..now a beach ball at 5 miles per second causes this much damage? uh I was just kidding.. Oh no.. It was just getting going..
I was laughing realizing they thought I was trolling. :)

267 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:14:41pm

Browning Semi Auto .22 has the tubular magazine in the stock. Do you just have a longer follower machined?

re: #256 austin_blue

By the shorts. Poor you! Too bad, how sad, if you have to spend more time loading your plinker. Again, not a taking.

Any other bullshit exceptions you'd like to mention?

Just wondering why you're so worried about plinkers that aren't being used in crime and do nothing about ultra compact revolvers that are used in crime.

Seems, I don't know, kind of pointless and stupid.

268 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:19:23pm

re: #260 A Man for all Seasons

(((BIG HUG)))
You'll have SUCH a great New Year!

269 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:22:57pm

re: #265 austin_blue

Here is my original post on the subject:

"Treat all autoloading guns like machine guns. Register them with the ATF and make them subject to a $250 transfer fee for any sale, just like machine guns. That's already law that has passed Constitutional muster. Pistols, rifles, and shotguns. Make the maximum capacity of any gun six rounds. Ban any clip or magazine with a capacity of greater than six rounds except for licensed gun ranges where you can go and rent a high-cap clip to get your jollies. Pistols and semi-auto rifles would be limited to six round clips. Shotguns and pump-action rifles would be required to have plugs to limit the capacity of the gun to six rounds.

This isn't taking away your guns. This is common sense.

Institute a trade program, funded by the Feds, to replace larger clips with smaller capacity clips. Cheap. No hardship.

This bullshit has got to end."

I don't think that's unreasonable. We can agree to disagree.

Night, Lizards. Sweet scaly dreams.

At least we're all having a relatively calm, rational discussion about our options and where to go from here.

Unlike the RWNJs, who are too busy deflecting, misdirecting, and misleading.

270 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:23:27pm

re: #260 A Man for all Seasons

Hi You! Hope you are well.not much happening..I'm in a holding pattern till the new year...And I've lost my Christmas spirit this year...Everything is wrong.. I just sent the kids checks for Christmas and a card. My heart is heavy

I'm on hold too. Lots of interest in me, but no one's going to offer me a job till the new year.

Hang in there, buddy. It'll be better fairly soon.

271 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:25:32pm

re: #269 TedStriker

At least we're all having a calm, rational discussion about our options and where to go from here.

Unlike the RWNJs, who are too busy deflecting, misdirecting, and misleading.

Not entirely calm, but calm is the ideal and there's no one here who is spewing Burning Stupid. Buy the standards of the internet, that's damned good.

272 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:26:37pm

re: #268 Dancing along the light of day

(((BIG HUG)))
You'll have SUCH a great New Year!

You are awesome let's chat soon...So I'm doing a few special things for Christmas.. I'm giving Nikki mom's diamonds to keep in our family..Nikki and mom were really tight...I want to put joy in her heart this year

273 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:37:28pm

re: #272 A Man for all Seasons

You have my names & numbers!
*smooch*

274 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:39:49pm

FYI, this is the right kind of molcajete. I found mine at a local Mexican supermarket for ten dollars less and no shipping charges, but this is the real deal.

The fucking bomb! You'll thank me later.

275 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:42:02pm

re: #273 Dancing along the light of day

You have my names & numbers!
*smooch*

Good night.. I have a few minutes left before the pill kicks in.. I'm feeling it now.. So I better put everything away and hit the sack..Otherwise I'll wake up at 3AM slumped over my laptop with a show about skin care on the TV blaring away..

276 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 18, 2012 11:43:30pm

Goodnight, All.

277 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:01:03am

‘PSEUDOCOMMANDOS’ WITH ‘WOUNDED NARCISSISM’ DON'T KILL.

‘PSEUDOCOMMANDOS’ WITH ‘WOUNDED NARCISSISM’ AND GUNS DO!!!.

278 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:15:53am

I still want to see the tax returns.

279 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:32:38am

Morning, all

280 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:23:27am

re: #54 lostlakehiker

If the topic is rampage violence, such as at Newtown, then mental health turns out to be a factor in about half of them.

Have any evidence of that? Or did you just make that up?

281 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:47:05am

re: #220 Pawn of the Oppressor

Evidently he didn't drive and didn't like to go anywhere without his mother anyway. She was probably there with him, helping him "prepare" for what-the-fuck-ever. She might have even thought that his learning a physical skill that required concentration and coordination would do him some good. I also doubt very much that he was showing outward signs of wanting to murder six-year-olds. Unfortunately, she made a Big Parenting Mistake, and we all get to pay for it.

She made a couple of big mistakes, but I don't think including her kid in her entertainment was the main one.

Again, Nancy Lanza's situation is not especially different from a lot of households in the US. She was, no doubt, a 'law-abiding' gun owner. Who evidently trained with her guns, like everyone says a 'responsible' owner should. Her guns were legally acquired. She acquired them with the intention of self-defence. Yes, her fantasy of survivalism was complete bullshit, but it's the same fantasy that an awful lot of Americans have who experience the joy of the Conservative world. Furthermore, it is not a fantasy very far removed from the fantasy that most Americans share, that of ordinary civilians engaging in gun battles to 'protect' themselves and others. This fantasy is equally ridiculous and much, much more common and socially acceptable.

After every shooting, no doubt she and her peers at the range would congratulate themselves on being 'responsible, law-abiding' gun owners. Not like those other guys, the bad guys doing all the shooting. They cuddled their guns for the right reasons. In fact, with all the dangerous shootings going on out there, it was important that they keep guns at home for protection. If only one of them had been there, they could stop the massacres. Their guns weren't the problem.

Mental health is a diversion and nothing more. There is nothing to suggest that this kid was the proverbial 'ticking time bomb'. No evidence of sociopathic or psychopathic behaviour, no evidence of torture or other such giant red flags. Being weird and socially maladjusted does not mean you will go on to do monstrous things. Targeting these people further will do nothing. Which, as it happens, is exactly how gun cultists and their enablers would like it, because the status quo continues to feed their fantasies, and the rest of you are so far willing to go along. And dead neighbours and dead kids are much less important than being able to hold on to those precious, precious guns. Because guns are why you're free. And guns make you safe. And guns are your right.

Again, on December 13, almost none of you would have thought Nancy Lanza's guns were the problem. Legally acquired guns in the hands of a responsible gun owner, who trained with them and trained her child in their safe use. And then, all of a sudden, they were the problem.

They were always the problem.

282 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:51:57am

We are going to get nowhere by fixating on the specifics of this case. We need a sea change in the way we react to gun fetishism. People should object loudly and even obnoxiously when they are confronted with images of guns, avertisements or programs that equate them with some form of manhood, virility or patriotism.

We have to learn to shout louder than the NRA. They have been in control of the dialogue for too long. The most recent shootings shut them up for a week, but I expect them to come out of their corner blasting away, since the only tactic they know is "Don't retreat, reload!"

(ain't that right, Sarah?)

283 stabby  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:40:48am

So what line is Fox News pushing on this case anyway?

284 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:07:01am

re: #188 lostlakehiker

But there are people who had jolly well been identified as dangerous before they went on their rampage, and the authorities said yes, we know, but our hands are tied. He hasn't done anything that would justify us stepping in.

It wouldn't take a massive overhaul of the whole system to adjust the rules here in the direction of earlier intervention. That intervention might take the form of treatment, or offers of treatment. Or it might take the form of seeing to it that the guy doesn't have easy access to guns.

Yes, it would take a massive overhaul of the system. For example, Adam Lanza didn't have any guns. He took them from his mother. The Clackamas guy stole it from a friend. Guns are so prevalent that you don't really have to own one to get access to them: that is part of the problem. And what if they refuse treatment? Are we going to engage in prior restraint now, and commit those thousands and hundreds of thousands of people-- many of them gun owners, I might add, who have paranoid delusions of stolen elections, conspiracy stories of the Democrats wanting to socialize medicine in the US, etc-- who fit that profile?

The mental health angle is a phantom to chase. By massively improving mental health care and forcing people who worry us to receive it, we may be able to affect a small change. Maybe. We'd save a lot more lives by offering free therapy to anyone who was depressed. But all of this is nonsense until we see actual concrete proposals about what to do. Right now it's just blithe hand-waving of "Focus on mental health!"

If the odds of somebody going postal are 1 in 1000, that's actually way, way higher than it is for the general population. That's information.

It's not useful information, though.

285 S.D.  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 5:24:18am

I bet at their next Press Conference, the NRA proposes 'Sweeping Gun Legislation' that consists entirely of Mental Health dodges...

286 S.D.  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 5:25:43am

Also: One should point out that the GOP considers Mental Health an 'Entitlement' and want to cut it in favor of the Wealthy.

287 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:41:43am
288 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:52:29am

re: #287 lawhawk

I think I'd best remember the proverb about how if you can't say something nice...

289 Jolo5309  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:55:36am

re: #34 dragonath

Don't worry, Steven Harper is hard at work killing the gun registry.

2 different things.

The gun control bill in 1991 was brought in by Brian Mulroney. The gun registry was brought in by Jean Chretien 2 years later.

Stephen Harper has never expressed any interest in changing the gun control laws, only the gun registry.

290 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:06:12am

My penis does not touch the floor when I stand.

291 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:07:32am

re: #290 b_sharp

Me neither, since I cut that hole in the floor.

292 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:09:26am

Whew. Cough, cough, cough. Clears throat.

293 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:09:47am

Eleventy.

294 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:10:44am
295 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:11:27am

re: #293 Gus

[Embedded content]

Eleventy.

Did she even stop and think when she drafted that bill?

296 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:12:02am

re: #295 Targetpractice

Did she even stop and think when she drafted that bill?

Define 'think'.

297 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:12:14am

re: #295 Targetpractice

Did she even stop and think when she drafted that bill?

I stopped at "deploy."

298 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:12:52am

Also...

Benghazi

299 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:12:52am

re: #290 b_sharp

My penis does not touch the floor when I stand.

Sounds like the beginning to the new Bushmaster assault rifle commercial.

300 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:13:13am

re: #291 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Me neither, since I cut that hole in the floor.

So all you need to pack is a single shot Derringer.

301 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:14:17am

re: #297 Gus

I stopped at "deploy."

I stopped at "Senator Barbara,,,,,"

302 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:14:30am

re: #293 Gus

[Embedded content]

Eleventy.

What the....? What the hell is this going to accomplish?

303 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:15:27am

re: #302 Ghost of Tom Joad

What the....? What the hell is this going to accomplish?

She gets her face on TV!!

304 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:17:20am

When some guy goes in to buy an assault weapon, he should have to have his penis measured and the size printed on his license.

305 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:17:23am

re: #302 Ghost of Tom Joad

What the....? What the hell is this going to accomplish?

Watching the wingnuts froth even harder?

306 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:18:02am

re: #303 sattv4u2

She gets her face on TV!!

I have no interest in looking at her face.

307 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:19:55am

Looks like nothing is getting done. What a surprise. I had such high hopes, with government.

308 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:19:58am

re: #302 Ghost of Tom Joad

Mental jujitsu. Since there are repeated calls to arm teachers in classrooms coming out from the right, she probably figures that if you are going to put someone armed in to the schools, it might as well be the National Guard.

It's a grandstanding bill, pure and simple.

309 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:20:08am

re: #304 b_sharp

When some guy goes in to buy an assault weapon, he should have to have his penis measured and the size printed on his license.

Save time, require it as part of getting the license in the first place. Save the guy at the gun shop time.

"Okay sir, let's just look at your license...ouch...okay, well our rifle selection is over here, the Bushmaster very popular with men of your...status."

310 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:20:57am

Obviously the best course of action is to make schools and all public places resemble Iraq border checkpoints as closely as possible. Minefields to either side of the road, and artillery pre-sighted on all bottlenecked points of ingress.

311 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:21:31am

re: #304 b_sharp

When some guy goes in to buy an assault weapon, he should have to have his penis measured and the size printed on his license.

Why not just force the assault weapons industry to make the weapons look like dildos while you're at it.

312 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:21:59am

Good morning lizards!

313 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:22:13am

re: #309 Targetpractice

Save time, require it as part of getting the license in the first place. Save the guy at the gun shop time.

"Okay sir, let's just look at your license...ouch...okay, well our rifle selection is over here, the Bushmaster very popular with men of your...status."

Heard over the store loudspeaker:
"Hey Marty, what do we have in the back appropriate for Mr. pencil dick here?"

314 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:22:36am

re: #310 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Obviously the best course of action is to make schools and all public places resemble Iraq border checkpoints as closely as possible. Minefields to either side of the road, and artillery pre-sighted on all bottlenecked points of ingress.

And any vehicles which refuse to stop and submit to a search being reduced to a burned out cinder in a hail of gunfire. Fun for the whole family.

//

315 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:23:56am

re: #314 Targetpractice

And any vehicles which refuse to stop and submit to a search being reduced to a burned out cinder in a hail of gunfire. Fun for the whole family.

//

How Robo-Cop-esque.

316 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:24:06am

re: #313 b_sharp

Heard over the store loudspeaker:
"Hey Marty, what do we have in the back appropriate for Mr. pencil dick here?"

There will be a rash of guys taking cold showers before-hand so they can buy a Howitzer at Wal-Mart.

317 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:24:55am

re: #315 b_sharp

How Robo-Cop-esque.

Have you seen Detroit recently?

Robocop was a documentary from the future.

318 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:25:19am

Michelle Malkin seething over the "poor, persecuted gun owners." I think I lost brain cells just clicking on that.

319 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:25:39am

re: #317 GunstarGreen

Have you seen Detroit recently?

Robocop was a documentary from the future.

I see Detroit every day.

320 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:26:28am

re: #317 GunstarGreen

Have you seen Detroit recently?

Robocop was a documentary from the future.

A future where cops drive mid-80s Ford Tauruses and watch CRT TVs. Truly a bright, shining future to aspire to.

//

321 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:26:33am

re: #311 Ghost of Tom Joad

Why not just force the assault weapons industry to make the weapons look like dildos while you're at it.

Alternately, require all guns to be painted pastel colors. Require a formulation of gunpowder that incorporates glitter so that sparkles shoot out of the barrel with every round fired. Require the attachment of those digital audio playback circuits that come in novelty greeting cards. Have them play a random selection of boy band music at random intervals.

322 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:27:20am

re: #320 Targetpractice

A future where cops drive mid-80s Ford Tauruses and watch CRT TVs. Truly a bright, shining future to aspire to.

//

At least the toys are cool! //

323 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:27:30am

re: #318 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Michelle Malkin seething over the "poor, persecuted gun owners." I think I lost brain cells just clicking on that.

Yes, the "poor, persecuted gun owners." The ones who've been handed victory after victory in their march to end gun control. However did our country come to this.

//

324 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:28:01am

re: #318 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Michelle Malkin seething over the "poor, persecuted gun owners." I think I lost brain cells just clicking on that.

DERP!

325 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:28:48am

re: #321 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Alternately, require all guns to be painted pastel colors. Require a formulation of gunpowder that incorporates glitter so that sparkles shoot out of the barrel with every round fired. Require the attachment of those digital audio playback circuits that come in novelty greeting cards. Have them play a random selection of boy band music at random intervals.

I'd have to check, but there's probably something in the Geneva Conventions that wouldn't allow that.

326 darthstar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:31:26am

re: #311 Ghost of Tom Joad

Why not just force the assault weapons industry to make the weapons look like dildos while you're at it.

Because after you shoot you can't get it back into the holster - design flaw.

327 dragonath  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:33:34am

re: #289 Jolo5309

Stephen Harper has never expressed any interest in changing the gun control laws, only the gun registry.

Seeing how Harper is pushing the margins of the federal campaign finance laws and allowing abortion bills to come to a vote, I wouldn't hold my breath.

328 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:33:51am
329 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:34:25am

A rifle can also be a cane or a walking stick!

//

330 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:35:05am

re: #328 Gus

[Embedded content]

Great, the rest of the guanopsychotics are checking in.

331 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:35:33am

re: #307 Gus

Looks like nothing is getting done. What a surprise. I had such high hopes, with government.

I don't know about that. Even the stupid Benghazi investigation looks like it might have a silver lining.
Panel on Benghazi attack heaps blame on State, citing 'systemic failures'

According to Reuters, Clinton “said in a letter accompanying the review that she would adopt all of its recommendations.” And the New York Times reports she is already taking steps to rectify problems identified in the report, including asking for a transfer of $1.3 billion from Congress.

They say the State Department is asking permission from Congress to transfer more than $1.3 billion from contingency funds that had been allocated for spending in Iraq. This includes $553 million for hundreds of additional Marine security guards worldwide; $130 million for diplomatic security personnel; and $691 million for improving security at installations abroad.

Congressional Republicans will be hard pressed to hold up funding for Embassy security again.

332 Jolo5309  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:36:54am

re: #293 Gus

Eleventy.

I heard that on Cross Country Checkup (Canadian call in show on the CBC) on Sunday from a Canadian as well. He suggested two vets, one male and one female at each school.

He also suggested that the janitor (who apparently was a Vietnam vet) should have had a 9mm in the janitor's room he could have stopped it.

333 dragonath  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:37:39am

So this

is the same as this.

Glad we could clear that up!

334 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:37:58am

OH SNAP

335 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:38:17am

re: #332 Jolo5309

I heard that on Cross Country Checkup (Canadian call in show on the CBC) on Sunday from a Canadian as well. He suggested two vets, one male and one female at each school.

He also suggested that the janitor (who apparently was a Vietnam vet) should have had a 9mm in the janitor's room he could have stopped it.

Rex Murphy's an idiot.

336 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:38:54am

re: #334 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

OH SNAP

[Embedded content]

This just in, Pot accuses Kettle of being black, wonders why nobody noticed this before.

//

337 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:39:23am

A well regulated...

A well regulated...

Not even the First Amendment comes with that kind of qualifying language:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Yet, the Courts have repeatedly found all kinds of qualifications and limitations to free speech, including hate speech, obscenity (pornography), fighting words, defamation, slander, etc.

Despite the fact that the 2d Amendment starts off with "A well regulated...", gun owner advocates claim that the 2d provides an unfettered right, which doesn't comport with federal law, Supreme Court jurisprudence or common sense.

When you're taught to read laws and interpret them, you're supposed to follow the plain language as written and to use common definitions where necessary. An unfettered gun right would go against the plain language of the law IMO. There's no way to read the 2d as an unlimited right to firearms without eliminating the opening clause and that undermines the intent of the Founders. Some form of restrictions were always part of the plan.

338 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:39:23am

re: #333 dragonath

So this

is the same as this.

Glad we could clear that up!

You have an extraneous 'br' at the end of your first link.

339 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:40:46am

re: #328 Gus

[Embedded content]

Yes Dana, I could just so easily take this sharp tipped pencil I have and stab 20 people to death before anyone was able to stop me.

Maybe if I added a few straightened out paper clips to my arsenal?

340 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:41:44am

I don't like reposting comments, but this one got buried at the bottom of a thread and perfectly emphasizes how I feel about the situation:

One of my issues from the beginning is the whole "Obama/The Liberals are coming for your guns!!" craziness.

As far as I am aware only the most hardcore of left wingers would advocate for a complete ban on all guns period.

Notice what we are talking about here: Gun CONTROL. Not a Gun ban, but Gun CONTROL.

There's an important difference that is so easily overlooked.

I don't think I've seen one person suggest that citizens should no longer be allowed to target shoot. I don't think I've seen one person suggest citizens should no longer be able to hunt. Rare is the person who thinks that no one should use guns for any reason whatsoever.

Being a Canadian now living in the American South, I have a somewhat unique view on gun ownership/regulation.

Prior to posting this I decided to do some research on gun laws in Canada and here's what I discovered:

- Ownership of rifles and other standard hunting weapons is generally permitted (requirements vary by province).

- Handguns are generally prohibited but I'm reasonably certain you could still fire one at a range or other controlled facility if you wanted to.

- You can even own an assault rifle (like an AR15) so long as you have the necessary permit

Jokes are often made about Canadians being "unarmed" but the reality is different. We do have guns, we just handle them differently.

And the stupidest thing of all, in my opinion, is that the second amendment itself contains the language "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state..."

You know what that tells me? It tells me the Founders had something particular in mind when they crafted this amendment. It doesn't read "The right to self defense being inalienable, the rights of all citizens to stockpile as many weapons as they want shall not be infringed."

Also, well regulated would seem to suggest that even the Founders knew full well guns were dangerous and must be treated accordingly. There was a great post a couple of days ago about the U.S. military "regulates" its firearms.

So what's the bottom line to all of this? Well, it's pretty simple actually:

HARDLY ANYONE WANTS TO TAKE YOUR GUNS AWAY...we just want sensible rules and regulations to go along with having them. Is this really an insane idea?

As a gun owner myself, I think not.

341 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:41:50am

re: #339 dragonfire1981

Yes Dana, I could just so easily take this sharp tipped pencil I have and stab 20 people to death before anyone was able to stop me.

Maybe if I added a few straightened out paper clips to my arsenal?

The pencil is mightier than the sword.

342 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:42:17am

re: #341 b_sharp

The pencil is mightier than the sword.

I propose a submarine for every school!

343 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:42:19am

re: #340 dragonfire1981

I don't like reposting comments, but this one got buried at the bottom of a thread and perfectly emphasizes how I feel about the situation.

I see nothing.

344 dragonath  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:42:36am

re: #338 b_sharp

Oops... I didn't realize that- I just changed the picture.

345 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:42:52am

re: #342 Gus

I propose a submarine for every school!

With just a dab of mayonnaise.

346 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:43:48am

re: #342 Gus

Reaper drones for every school, and a Patriot missile in every pot.

347 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:43:54am

re: #345 b_sharp

With just a dab of mayonnaise.

Pepper spray and bayonets.

348 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:44:16am
349 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:45:22am

re: #343 b_sharp

I see nothing.

Updated, it's there now.

350 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:45:43am

Ha, Bryan Fischer gets pwned:

— Bryan Fischer (@BryanJFischer) December 19, 2012

351 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:46:01am

re: #348 Gus

[Embedded content]

...I am getting the idea that these self-righteous secular Jews won’t be happy until they pull off their own version of the Spanish Inquisition, forcing Christians to either deny their faith and convert to agnosticism or suffer the consequences.

This is a Christian nation, my friends. And all of us are fortunate it is one, and that so many millions of Americans have seen fit to live up to the highest precepts of their religion. It should never be forgotten that, in the main, it was Christian soldiers who fought and died to defeat Nazi Germany and who liberated the concentration camps.

Speaking as a member of a minority group – and one of the smaller ones at that – I say it behooves those of us who don’t accept Jesus Christ as our savior to show some gratitude to those who do, and to start respecting the values and traditions of the overwhelming majority of our fellow citizens, just as we keep insisting that they respect ours...

Burt Prelutsky

352 Jolo5309  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:46:08am

re: #327 dragonath

Seeing how Harper is pushing the margins of the federal campaign finance laws and allowing abortion bills to come to a vote, I wouldn't hold my breath.

He allowed it to come to vote?

First, it was a motion, not a bill. Many motions come to the house, and most are defeated. This one was opposed by the Prime Minister and he told his cabinet to vote against it (or was that part of his insidious plan too?).

I think you may have bought into the secret agenda story a little too hard.

353 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:46:56am

re: #342 Gus

I propose a submarine for every school!

sandwhich?

I'll have a ham, turkey, swiss with lettuce, tomato and mayo

354 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:48:01am

Spielberg calls Christie 'my hero'

Steven Spielberg has included New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie on his list of personal heroes.

The famed director – and longtime supporter of the Democratic Party – praised the GOP governor in an interview with The Hollywood Reporter published Wednesday.

Pointing to Christie’s handling of Hurricane Sandy, Spielberg said, “He was able to put party politics aside for the greater good. And the fact that he would, right at the end of the election cycle, tell the truth about his gratitude — he was my hero.”

Spielberg also named Nelson Mandela, former President Bill Clinton, former Rep. Gabby Giffords and MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow as people he greatly admires.

355 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:48:09am

That has changed, as you may have noticed. And I lay a great deal of the blame at the feet of my fellow Jews. When it comes to pushing the multicultural, anti-Christian agenda, you find Jewish judges, Jewish journalists and the largely Jewish funded ACLU at the forefront. What makes them even more obnoxious is that, by and large, the Jews who are leading the crusade against what is, we should never forget, a national holiday, are secular. So it’s not even a question of their religion being shortchanged; they hate their own, as well. They’re the pinheads who pretend that “separation of church and state” appears in the Constitution.

But the dirty little secret in America is that in spite of the occasional over-publicized rants by the likes of Mel Gibson and Michael Richards, anti-Semitism is no longer a problem in society; it’s been replaced by a rampant anti-Christianity. For example, much of the hatred spewed towards George W. Bush had far less to do with his policies than it did with his religion. As you may have noticed, they haven’t called Barack Obama any bad names even though he’s kept Gitmo open, extended the Patriot Act and even used drones to kill American citizens. Could it be because they understand that he only attended church in order to get his political career off the ground?

Burt Prelutsky

356 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:48:54am

re: #354 NJDhockeyfan

Spielberg calls Christie 'my hero'

I wonder who Speilberg will get to play the governor in "The Chris Christie Story"?

357 dragonath  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:49:43am

re: #352 Jolo5309

The Prime Minister sets the agenda, does he not? And his cabinet didn't do such a good job listening to him... that includes the "Status of Women" Minister.

358 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:50:06am

re: #337 lawhawk

Exactly. Which is why I continually bring up the Militia Acts of 1792. If you want to know exactly what the founders intent was, look to the laws they passed under the constitution (in the wake of the Whiskey Rebellion) and signed by President Washington.

Basically:
Everyone eligible to vote (and some more) are members of the militia.
They are required to procure a firelock (aka flintlock) compatible with the standing army plus necessary ammo & accouterments. They keep these at home, only artillery & such are kept at the armories.
They are required to gather and drill regularly according to the standards used by the Army. (See Von Steuben's Regulations of 1794 for details.)

How that transfers to today? I don't know but if we can force the 1st Amendment to accommodate the internet we can find a way to accommodate firearms.

359 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:50:12am

re: #350 dragonfire1981

360 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:54:40am

re: #358 William Barnett-Lewis

Maybe require long barreled guns (rifles, shotguns, etc.) be securely stored at VFWs or equivalent facilities? Handgun licenses must be more stringent with more thorough checks?

Thing is that most firearms fatalities are the result of handguns, so the focus on automatics is somewhat misplaced IMO. It's how to address with the widespread availability of handguns. And on that front, I'm not sure how to do so with so many guns available and in circulation.

361 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:55:14am

re: #357 dragonath

The Prime Minister sets the agenda, does he not? And his cabinet didn't do such a good job listening to him... that includes the "Status of Women" Minister.

A motion is just a vote to hold a vote.

Harper has a lot more bullshit to answer for than a motion by a back bencher. His anti-science stance should be looked at a little more closely.

362 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:00:05am

I've not been chasing all the threads here - lots of comments conflicting with me being busy. But I want to share an observation.

We have solid proof that gun control works in the US. The proof?

Automatic weapons. The restrictions are higher than they are for semi-auto weapons, but there are over 250,000 registered civilian owners in the US.

So how many automatic weapons have been used for murders (mass or otherwise) or suicides in the last few decades? The NRA says 2 since 1934, when the controlling act went into effect. 1992 and 1998; the latter a policeman using an issued MAC-10.

Gun control works in the US.

363 efuseakay  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:00:25am

re: #334 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

OH SNAP

[Embedded content]

Out of most, she's the one in real need of mental health treatment.

364 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:04:21am

re: #340 dragonfire1981

I don't like reposting comments, but this one got buried at the bottom of a thread and perfectly emphasizes how I feel about the situation:

Yes. I've been running into that on a separate mostly conservative list. Apparently the slippery slope of gun control is frictionless. Never was before, of course, but it does make it hard to have an honest discussion when everything is, to them, just one step to the inevitable goal of total confiscation.

365 efuseakay  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:04:22am

re: #328 Gus

[Embedded content]

Dana, you can't carve a turkey or mince garlic with a gun.

366 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:05:42am

re: #365 efuseakay

Sure you can; with the proper application of explosives, anything is possible. /

367 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:07:03am

re: #366 lawhawk

Sure you can; with the proper application of explosives, anything is possible. /

You just need a fine touch.

368 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:10:24am

re: #356 sattv4u2

I wonder who Speilberg will get to play the governor in "The Chris Christie Story"?

I think I just answered my own question
[Link: cbskearth101.files.wordpress.com...]

369 efuseakay  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:10:47am

re: #366 lawhawk

Sure you can; with the proper application of explosives, anything is possible. /

No. But you can mince garlic that way!

370 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:11:00am

So the Treasury Department is going to sell its remaining stock in GM within the next 15 months. Drudge touts that this will lock in a 50% loss on those shares.

Well, a couple of points. GOPers have been hitting the administration for owning shares and pushing to divest as quick as possible. That has always run the risk of a loss since GM stock has been below the strike price from the outset. It would take a serious runup on GM share price to get back to even on the deal.

Divesting is coming in the form of a stock buyback, which indicates that GM has the cash on hand to make that happen. That is a big change from needing a bailout and bankruptcy reorganization.

GM isn't out of the woods, and the feds may still need to hold on longer than 15 months, but if the share price rises at the end of the day, it means that taxpayers could reduce their losses on this portion of TARP.

And TARP has already made money on the AIG and portions of the bank bailout plan. TARP ownership in Chrysler has been ended as a result of the sale to Fiat. This is just another step in unwinding the position.

371 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:12:42am

I can see it's going to be another day of bellyaching on Twitter. What a bore.

372 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:15:04am

re: #371 Gus

I can see it's going to be another day of bellyaching on Twitter. What a bore.

What do you really expect?

Make sure to keep your answer to less than 140 characters, please.

373 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:15:31am

re: #372 b_sharp

What do you really expect?

Make sure to keep your answer to less than 140 characters, please.

[moonbat]Chained CPI is teh death panels![/moonbat] //

374 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:16:16am

re: #360 lawhawk

Maybe require long barreled guns (rifles, shotguns, etc.) be securely stored at VFWs or equivalent facilities? Handgun licenses must be more stringent with more thorough checks?

Thing is that most firearms fatalities are the result of handguns, so the focus on automatics is somewhat misplaced IMO. It's how to address with the widespread availability of handguns. And on that front, I'm not sure how to do so with so many guns available and in circulation.

I'm more in favor of an expansion of the NFA to cover semi-automatic firearms - long gun or hand gun - that hold more than 10 rounds. The tax should be minimal (max $50) and while the CLEO should be notified he should not be allowed veto power. But you still have to fill out a ATF Form 1 and have your tax stamp in hand to take possession. Shotguns with more than 5 shot capacity should also be so regulated. Perhaps up to 10 years to get all previously owned qualifying firearms registered with no tax on them until they are transferred (aka sold to someone else). This would require all private sales of these firearms to go through an FFL as well.

This, I believe, would give us much the same benefit as the NFA has provided the nation in regulating full automatic weapons while minimizing constitutional issues (self defense per the SCOTUS) and lowering the impact on the responsible gun owners.

375 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:22:43am

re: #373 Gus

[moonbat]Chained CPI is teh death panels![/moonbat] //

Chained CPI will cut into my (small) SSecurity income and my (middle, middle, middle) retirement check. Wife and I will live with it, but I want to see Romney eat just one of his horses.

376 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:23:50am

re: #355 Gus

Burt Prelutsky

Who is this shmuck?

377 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:26:02am

re: #375 Decatur Deb

Chained CPI will cut into my (small) SSecurity income and my (middle, middle, middle) retirement check. Wife and I will live with it, but I want to see Romney eat just one of his horses.

Sorry, but I saw no details of this CPI thing. It was mentioned by Carney during the press conference yesterday but heard nothing from Obama. Subsequently my Twitter feed was flooding with Emogprogs complaining about Obama and Obamabots (yes there are Obama supporters who call themselves Obamabots on Twitter) complaining about the Emoprogs. Tired of all the BS and no one wanting to cooperate, compromise, or stop complaining.

378 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:27:26am

re: #376 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Who is this shmuck?

[Link: twitter.com...]

379 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:27:53am

Let him know how you feel...

380 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:31:11am

re: #377 Gus

Sorry, but I saw no details of this CPI thing. It was mentioned by Carney during the press conference yesterday but heard nothing from Obama. Subsequently my Twitter feed was flooding with Emogprogs complaining about Obama and Obamabots (yes there are Obama supporters who call themselves Obamabots on Twitter) complaining about the Emoprogs. Tired of all the BS and no one wanting to cooperate, compromise, or stop complaining.

Cliff notes version of chained CPI means that the market-basket calculations are altered so that SSecurity, pension plans, and a bunch of other things fall behind true inflation a bit faster. That's not critical unless you survive a good while after retirement. I can compromise on that because we're not living close to the edge. Some people can't.

The other part of the compromise better be some serious "Shared Sacrifice" by the masters of the universe.

381 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:31:53am

re: #355 Gus

...much of the hatred spewed towards George W. Bush had far less to do with his policies than it did with his religion...

That's some deep prelutsky.

382 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:32:48am

Note pencil change 'faster' to #380.

383 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:34:01am

re: #381 jaunte

That's some deep prelutsky.

"Cleanup in aisle 666."

384 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:36:26am

re: #371 Gus

I can see it's going to be another day of bellyaching on Twitter. What a bore.

This is why we can't have nice things!

385 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:36:50am

UPDATE 3-Three more polio workers shot in Pakistan; eight dead in 48 hours

Dec 19 (Reuters) - Three workers in a polio eradication campaign were shot in Pakistan on Wednesday, and two of them were killed, the latest in an unprecedented string of attacks over the past three days that has partially halted the U.N.-backed campaign.

The United Nations in Pakistan has pulled all staff involved in the campaign off the streets, spokesman Michael Coleman said.

The government said immunization was continuing in some areas without U.N. support although many workers refused to go out. Women health workers held protests in the southern city of Karachi and in the capital, Islamabad.

"We go out and risk our lives to save other people's children from being permanently handicapped, for what? So that our own children become orphans?" health worker Ambreen Bibi said at the Islamabad protest.

386 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:37:09am

Only in Texas

Sadly, probably not.

387 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:38:32am

re: #386 jaunte

Only in Texas

Sadly, probably not.

If they trusted in God, they wouldn't need a Glock.

388 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:40:23am

What a great person to name a school after!
//

New East Salinas school named after outlaw

SALINAS, Calif. —A new public elementary school in East Salinas was named after Tiburcio Vasquez following a unanimous vote by the Alisal Union School District's school board trustees this week.

Vasquez was born in Monterey in 1835, and lived until the age of 39. He attended school in Monterey and learned how to read and write in English and Spanish.

Vasquez spent his life as an outlawed bandit who brawled, robbed, and horse-rustled his way from Monterey to Salinas and beyond in Northern California. He was publicly hanged in San Jose after he was convicted of murder.

389 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:43:41am

re: #388 NJDhockeyfan

learned how to read and write in English and Spanish.

Vasquez spent his life as an outlawed bandit who brawled, robbed, and horse-rustled his way

(teacher)
"Children, todays word is BANDIT ,, BANDIT. Can someone say that in Spanish?"

(student)
"Yes Mrs Fussbinder, that would be Bandido, Bandido!!"

390 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:44:23am

re: #379 Gus

Let him know how you feel...

[Embedded content]

What a fucking putz!

391 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:46:13am

re: #385 NJDhockeyfan

Polio is a scourge that can be eliminated if places like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Nigeria are able to complete vaccination campaigns. Those are among the last places in the world where live polio infections occur.

A breakdown in the vaccination campaign in Pakistan would mean potential exposures can be transmitted to places that have been able to wipe out polio - causing new outbreaks.

The reason that the Taliban attack the vaccination campaigns? They think it's a plot to sterilize Muslims. So, they'd rather allow people get infected with a potentially crippling disease. In so many respects, they sound like anti-vaxxers who oppose vaccines for diseases like chicken pox or influenza claiming it would cause autism or that the disease isn't too bad (let's hold a chicken pox party!) or that the risks are too great as compared to the disease.

392 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:46:46am

re: #388 NJDhockeyfan

What a great person to name a school after!
//

New East Salinas school named after outlaw

How do you feel about high schools named for Geronimo and Crazy Horse?

393 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:48:37am

re: #379 Gus

I don't even know where to begin with that brand of crazy.

394 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:49:25am
395 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:49:28am

re: #393 lawhawk

I don't even know where to begin with that brand of crazy.

Reminds me of Keven MacDonald.

396 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:50:43am

re: #392 Decatur Deb

How do you feel about high schools named for Geronimo and Crazy Horse?

And don't get me started on Nathan Bedford High.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

397 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:51:36am

WTF!

DERP list is so derp, looking at it for too long can cause me to want to punch out the monitor.

398 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:52:09am

re: #396 Decatur Deb

And don't get me started on Nathan Bedford High.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Hols shit! Damn idiots.

399 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:52:22am

re: #393 lawhawk

I don't even know where to begin with that brand of crazy.

Cyclone B-grade crazy

400 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:53:39am

re: #396 Decatur Deb

re: #398 NJDhockeyfan

They just did that so the football team can wear pointy topped helmets and use that as an advantage tackling!!!
/

401 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:54:38am

re: #398 NJDhockeyfan

Hols shit! Damn idiots.

Personally I'm afraid of the "Poets" of Sidney Lanier High. They kick our kids' asses every football season.

402 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:54:49am

re: #388 NJDhockeyfan

Other things named after Tiburico Vasquez:

Vasquez Rocks

Tiburico Vasquez Health Center

A day use area in the Angeles National Forest

403 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:54:56am

Westboro Baptist Church Twitter account hacked

A 15-year-old hacker took over the Twitter account of official Westboro Baptist Church spokeswoman Shirley Lynn Phelps-Roper on Monday. And in an unusual show of solidarity with a hacker, the Twitter community is thanking the anonymous “hacktivist.”

The popular teenage hacker, who goes by “Cosmo the Great,” exploited a flaw in Twitter’s help-desk system to take over Phelps-Roper’s account, Wired reported Monday night. Twitter suspended the account Monday morning.

Phelps-Roper apparently sent her last authentic tweet hours after the Sandy Hook tragedy, announcing that the controversial group planned to picket outside the funerals of Newtown victims. Cosmo broke into the account on Monday morning, changing Phelps-Roper’s background to an illustration that said “pray for Newtown” and editing her profile information.

Heh. I found something I can support Anonymous for.

404 blueraven  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:55:41am

re: #396 Decatur Deb

And don't get me started on Nathan Bedford High.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

In November 2008, the Duval County School Board voted 5-2 to keep the name the same.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


Hmmm...what other significant event occurred in Nov 2008?

405 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:57:14am

re: #397 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I'm willing to shut Kevin Eder and Piers Morgan up in a room for a debate as long as there are no microphones, cameras or exits.

406 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:58:34am

re: #404 blueraven

In November 2008, the Duval County School Board voted 5-2 to keep the name the same.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Hmmm...what other significant event occurred in Nov 2008?

my 55th birfday!!!

407 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:58:58am

re: #388 NJDhockeyfan

What a great person to name a school after!
//

New East Salinas school named after outlaw

Pancho Villa State Park.

Villa led a raid on the adjoining town of Columbus in 1916. They killed 8 soldiers and ten civilians.

408 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:00:19am

re: #407 wrenchwench

Pancho Villa State Park.

Villa led a raid on the adjoining town of Columbus in 1916. They killed 8 soldiers and ten civilians.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

409 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:01:44am

I think the theory is that as long as you commit democide with a flag and uniform you're OK.

410 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:02:45am

My old town was named for Alexander McKee, a frontier friend of the young George Washington, who played both sides of the Fort Pitt area during the French and Indian and Revolutionary wars. He spent decades raising Indian efforts against the then 'West'.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

411 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:03:25am

Scottsdale AZ: Police searching grounds of school after food service worker reported seeing person wearing long coat and with weapon. So far, police have search most of the school grounds, but nothing found.

412 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:05:06am

Uh oh. This is going to confuse some people.

413 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:06:00am
414 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:06:59am

President Obama's presser underway:

Closing background check loopholes.

Call on Congress to confirm ATF chief - a position open for past 6 years

Strong tradition of right to bear arms, passed down from generation to generation, but differences in view by region.

Most are responsible gun owners, unbalanced man shouldn't get hands on gun.

415 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:08:36am

Since Friday - 3 police officers killed. 1 killed in Vegas, people shot in hospital, a kid killed yesterday.

More than 10k killed by firearms every year.

Will use all powers of the Office to prevent more deaths. No excuse not to try. Requires help of public.

416 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:08:36am

re: #414 lawhawk

President Obama's presser underway:

Closing background check loopholes.

Call on Congress to confirm ATF chief - a position open for past 6 years

Strong tradition of right to bear arms, passed down from generation to generation, but differences in view by region.

Most are responsible gun owners, unbalanced man shouldn't get hands on gun.

About as strong a policy as is possible in this generation.

417 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:10:57am

Uh. Obama made a mistake! //

418 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:12:26am
419 allegro  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:12:46am

Campaigns like MADD and anti-smoking have been quite effective. I see no reason why something similar can't be just as effective with guns. With public pressure comes real reform.

420 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:13:28am

ZOMG! PANIC!

421 Dr. Matt  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:14:09am

If teabagger politicians were reeeeeally "concerned" that mental illness was a pressing problem, they would be screeching non-stop with fake outrage like they do about abortion, birth control, and Benghazi.

422 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:14:41am

re: #419 allegro

Campaigns like MADD and anti-smoking have been quite effective. I see no reason why something similar can't be just as effective with guns. With public pressure comes real reform.

The Brady Bill group has a website. Visits are miniscule compared to the NRA site.

423 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:15:47am

re: #410 Decatur Deb

My old town was named for Alexander McKee, a frontier friend of the young George Washington, who played both sides of the Fort Pitt area during the French and Indian and Revolutionary wars. He spent decades raising Indian efforts against the then 'West'.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

King County, where Seattle is, used to be named for our briefest-serving vice president, but later it was changed to be named for Martin Luther King Jr. Nobody had to change their stationery.

424 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:15:56am

re: #421 Dr. Matt

If teabagger politicians were reeeeeally "concerned" that mental illness was pressing problem, they would be screeching non-stop with fake outrage like they do about abortion, birth control, and Benghazi.

For the TP, mental illness is less a "concern" than a "strategy".

425 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:16:41am
426 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:17:07am

re: #422 Decatur Deb

The Brady Bill group has a website. Visits are miniscule compared to the NRA site.

Eh, the Brady's & the NRA deserve each other. It's a tossup as to which one lies more.

427 allegro  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:17:10am

re: #422 Decatur Deb

The Brady Bill group has a website. Visits are miniscule compared to the NRA site.

And I believe that was the last time some real dialog about gun control happened. The energy wasn't maintained as it was with MADD and anti-smoking campaigns.

428 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:19:02am

re: #426 William Barnett-Lewis

Eh, the Brady's & the NRA deserve each other. It's a tossup as to which one lies more.

They would be the most likely seed if a real anti-gun movement were to crystallize.

429 b_sharp  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:19:21am

re: #406 sattv4u2

my 55th birfday!!!

You old, man.

430 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:19:29am

re: #420 Lidane

ZOMG! PANIC!

[Embedded content]

Weird. Because from what I just heard that doesn't sound like the case. In fact, he is also going, in part, along the mental health route that they've been yammering about.

431 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:19:35am

re: #427 allegro

And I believe that was the last time some real dialog about gun control happened. The energy wasn't maintained as it was with MADD and anti-smoking campaigns.

That's because any talk of gun control has the immediate effect of otherwise smart, reasonable people flipping their shit and thinking that the government is going to TAKE ALL THE GUNZ ZOMG and become Nazi Germany or some shit.

432 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:20:16am

re: #428 Decatur Deb

They would be the most likely seed if a real anti-gun movement were to crystallize.

I hope not. I'd rather see a completely new group, untainted by them, take the lead.

433 allegro  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:20:47am

re: #426 William Barnett-Lewis

Eh, the Brady's & the NRA deserve each other. It's a tossup as to which one lies more.

What Brady lies are you referring to?

434 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:21:18am
435 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:21:27am

Been a mild Fall. Today, sucks.

Light Snow Fog/Mist
19°F
-7°C
Humidity 93%
Wind Speed N 15 G 24 mph
Barometer 29.75 in (1011.2 mb)
Dewpoint 18°F (-8°C)
Visibility 1.25 mi
Wind Chill 5°F (-15°C)

436 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:22:01am

re: #430 Gus

Weird. Because from what I just heard that doesn't sound like the case. In fact, he is also going, in part, along the mental health route that they've been yammering about.

That's because he's actually very good at what he does. Ambiguity is one of his most powerful tools.

437 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:23:46am

re: #436 Decatur Deb

That's because he's actually very good at what he does. Ambiguity is one of his most powerful tools.

They're so stupid that can't even see the places where he agrees with them.

438 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:24:07am

re: #434 jaunte

Someone brought that video to my attention yesterday, but I just can't bring myself to watch it. I hear the baby was okay, but that still sounds terrifying.

439 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:24:43am

re: #391 lawhawk

Polio is a scourge that can be eliminated if places like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Nigeria are able to complete vaccination campaigns. Those are among the last places in the world where live polio infections occur.

A breakdown in the vaccination campaign in Pakistan would mean potential exposures can be transmitted to places that have been able to wipe out polio - causing new outbreaks.

The reason that the Taliban attack the vaccination campaigns? They think it's a plot to sterilize Muslims. So, they'd rather allow people get infected with a potentially crippling disease. In so many respects, they sound like anti-vaxxers who oppose vaccines for diseases like chicken pox or influenza claiming it would cause autism or that the disease isn't too bad (let's hold a chicken pox party!) or that the risks are too great as compared to the disease.

Not the only reason. The CIA decided to use the polio teams as their cover for humint resources searching for bin Laden, and Congress search for a reason to condemn instead of praise Obama got that fact exposed.

440 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:25:09am

re: #425 Lidane

Presser announcing gun control policy and no questions so far on what the President is proposing to do, dealing with firearms, etc. It's all on the budget mess.

Guess the media has already decided that time needs to be devoted to fiscal cliff, not firearms restrictions.

So far, the lead question and two following questions were all budget related. Nothing on what the President said in his original statement.

441 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:25:52am

Space heater is a lie!

442 allegro  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:26:06am

re: #438 Four More Tears

Someone brought that video to my attention yesterday, but I just can't bring myself to watch it. I hear the baby was okay, but that still sounds terrifying.

It was fake.

443 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:26:32am

re: #438 Four More Tears

Someone brought that video to my attention yesterday, but I just can't bring myself to watch it. I hear the baby was okay, but that still sounds terrifying.

Nah--It's really quite cool. The toddler gets one foot of altitude, about two seconds of airtime but muffs it with a sloppy back-PLF. His winter clothing pretty well saved him.

444 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:26:51am

Looks like the only questions thus far in this Newtown presser is about "Fiscal Cliff."

445 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:27:51am

Lanza's mother received $270,000/year in alimony alone. She could have afforded any mental health care for her son she wanted!

(And she could have afforded a nice SAFE and LOCKS for her GUNS)

446 blueraven  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:28:47am

re: #430 Gus 802

He advocated the same things we have all talked about

Ban on assault weapons
High capacity clips
Back ground check on all gun sales (closing gun show loopholes)

These were first priority. Then he mentioned better access to Mental Health and looking at how we glorify gun violence in our culture.

447 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:29:11am

re: #438 Four More Tears

I saw it, and it looks fake to me. But when you've got a birding expert say that it is exceptionally rare for a golden eagle to be seen in Montreal, and no local news reports indicated as much when it happened, that the whole thing just reeks of hoax/spoof.

And did I mention that this is the poster's first youtube video.

448 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:29:50am

re: #442 allegro

It was fake.

Did it have layers? My heat-mapper says it's good.

449 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:30:06am

re: #446 blueraven

He advocated the same things we have all talked about

Ban on assault weapons
High capacity clips
Back ground check on all gun sales (closing gun show loopholes)

These were first priority. Then he mentioned better access to Mental Health and looking at how we glorify gun violence in our culture.

Apparently the WHPC doesn't care.

450 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:30:09am

I just fervently wish both sides of this would take the calm pragmatic take on this as our President. He never sounded better. I really don't want to have my time wasted with "they are gonna take yer gunz" nor that the 2nd is for militias. Neither statement is true. Or helpful in any way.

451 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:31:46am

re: #445 ReamWorks SKG

From personal experience, if someone refuses medical treatment, or mental health care, it doesn't matter how much money you have. That person has every right to refuse treatment no matter how beneficial, unless you go through a commitment process that is quite time consuming and favors non-committal because of the requirements needed. Multiple doctors have to find that the person will do harm to themselves or others, immediacy, and other factors involved.

The mother may have been trying to go through the involuntary commitment route but that's a time consuming process.

452 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:32:31am

Another day in Russia.

453 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:33:10am

Finally, a return back to the issue at hand - reaching out to stakeholders, members of Congress, and not start from scratch. Multiple proposals have been forwarded in the past - but task force will sift through and put together a set of recommendations in about a month.

454 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:33:43am

re: #445 ReamWorks SKG

Do we know that the kid did not open a safe or remove trigger locks? I had not sen that confirmed one way or another. I thought we just know he got them. But safe storage is essential, required in Ca. Good law to take national in any case.

455 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:34:26am

re: #453 lawhawk

Finally, a return back to the issue at hand - reaching out to stakeholders, members of Congress, and not start from scratch. Multiple proposals have been forwarded in the past - but task force will sift through and put together a set of recommendations in about a month.

Freep won't be confused--Freepers never are.

456 allegro  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:34:45am
457 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:35:24am

A defector’s account of Syrian chemical weapons on the move

Reports from inside two Syrian chemical weapons facilities offer chilling new evidence that President Bashar al-Assad’s regime developed special vehicles last year for moving and mixing the weapons — and an unconfirmed allegation that Lebanese allies of the regime, presumably in Hezbollah, may have been trained 11 months ago in the weapons’ use.

...According to the defector’s account, two senior Syrian officers moved about 100 kilograms of chemical weapons materials from a secret military base in January. The base was in a village called Nasiriyah, about 50 to 60 kilometers northeast of Damascus.

The officers placed the chemicals in a civilian vehicle and were seen driving across a bridge in the direction of the highway toward Lebanon, the Syrian source said. Two days later, he continued, two men with Lebanese accents arrived at the Nasiriyah base and were given training in how to combine and activate the chemicals, as well as the proper safety precautions in handling them.

Rumors about possible movement of Syrian chemical weapons have been spreading recently in the Middle East. But U.S. officials don’t appear to have any evidence that chemical weapons have actually been moved anywhere outside Syria.

The Syrian source also described construction of special trucks, which could transport and mix the weapons, at a workshop in the Damascus suburb of Dummar. This workshop was part of a network of secret research facilities known in Arabic as the “Bohous,” the source said. Construction of these mobile laboratories began in the summer of 2011, a few months after revolutionaries began threatening Assad’s regime.

In the Dummar workshop, the Syrian source said, technicians constructed a mobile lab that could combine and activate so-called “binary” chemical weapons agents. These mobile mixers were constructed inside Mercedes or Volvo trucks that appeared, from the outside, to be similar to refrigerator trucks. Inside were storage tanks, pipes and a motor to drive the mixing machinery, the defector said.

The defector estimated that 10 to 15 of these mobile laboratories had been constructed. An independent source said these numbers were high, but he confirmed that the Syrians do have mobile labs.

458 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:35:55am

Issues of gun safety will be an element. Gun locks are only part of an issue. Thoughtful approach that says we can preserve 2d Amendment, responsible gun owners can carry out their activities, but that we're serious about the safety side of this.

There's a big chunk of space between what the 2d Amendment means and having no rules at all.

459 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:36:10am

re: #456 allegro

Viral video of baby-snatching eagle declared a fake

All The Reasons That Baby-Snatching Eagle Video Is Fake

Next you'll tell me the malamute didn't photo-bomb the retriever.

460 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:37:14am

What the fuckity fuck!

461 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:37:34am

re: #445 ReamWorks SKG

Lanza's mother received $270,000/year in alimony alone. She could have afforded any mental health care for her son she wanted!

(And she could have afforded a nice SAFE and LOCKS for her GUNS)

I have no doubt that she would have been described as a responsible gun owner by anyone here.

Up till Friday.

462 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:39:01am

Where has Jake Tapper been?

463 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:39:18am

re: #454 Political Atheist

Do we know that the kid did not open a safe or remove trigger locks? I had not sen that confirmed one way or another. I thought we just know he got them. But safe storage is essential, required in Ca. Good law to take national in any case.

Remind me to do a rant someday about the criteria for knowledge on the Intertubes. Like most breaking stories, we don't know crap about what happened. By the time the responsible investigators sort of figure it out, we will have moved on to the next Benghazi.

464 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:39:27am

re: #457 NJDhockeyfan

A defector’s account of Syrian chemical weapons on the move

I remember a bunch of Iraqi defectors talking about Saddam's weapons capabilities. Look what that got us.

465 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:39:29am

re: #460 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

@BryanJFischer And you keep reminding us just how you're a sad strange little man

466 dragonfire1981  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:40:14am

Man TCOT has really gone off the rails following this press conference, they're already screaming about armed insurrection now that Obama has "officially" declared he's coming for their guns.

467 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:40:57am

re: #458 lawhawk

There's a big chunk of space between what the 2d Amendment means and having no rules at all.

Oh, but didn't you know? Any rules or restrictions in place = repealing the Second Amendment. Clearly.

///

468 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:41:20am

re: #460 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

What the fuckity fuck!

[Embedded content]

Fischer really does live in his own world, doesn't he?

469 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:42:52am

re: #464 Lidane

I remember a bunch of Iraqi defectors talking about Saddam's weapons capabilities. Look what that got us.

Nobody denies that Syria has tons of chemical weapons. Having said that the author bring up Iraq...

For some historical context, readers should recall the Iraqi defector known as “Curveball,” who made allegations about Iraqi chemical weapons a decade ago that bolstered the case for war — but turned out to be fabrications. Seeking corroboration for the Syrian report, I checked it with knowledgeable, independent sources, who confirmed some of the details.

470 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:43:13am

re: #460 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

What the fuckity fuck!

[Embedded content]

Jeez, the right wets their pants when their guys remind people how rich they are; "it's good news for McCain that he can't remember how many homes he has!" And, of course, their last presidential candidate. Hell was his name again? Apparently they've already scrubbed him from their history books.

471 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:43:20am

re: #462 jaunte

Where has Jake Tapper been?

472 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:43:48am

re: #466 dragonfire1981

Man TCOT has really gone off the rails following this press conference, they're already screaming about armed insurrection now that Obama has "officially" declared he's coming for their guns.

Paranoids find that everything, even the fat content of their hamburgers, is confirmation of the danger they're in.

473 Mattand  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:44:34am

re: #462 jaunte

Where has Jake Tapper been?

Who cares? Maybe he's been camping in Roger Ailes's driveway, begging for a job.

474 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:45:14am

Jake Tapper asks where Obama's been on the gun issue. "Where have you been?" Well, there's a point there - this isn't the first mass murder by firearms on Obama's watch, so why is this time different for the President.

Obama's answer that he had other things on his plate that were more pressing is true to a point. There were other more pressing issues on his plate, and a president has only so much political capital to use at any given point and politics requires give and take so that if he sought action in one area, it would affect other priorities - such as the economy. However, as President you can't devote all time to just one issue - there are lots of issues to be addressed in any day, and the fact that you're getting 10,000 murders (and a similar number of suicides) by firearms in any year is a troubling and costly statistic. Reducing the firearms deaths and injuries by half could have a tremendous public health benefit by reducing costs.

Now, there's a time and place to deal with firearms in a way and with urgency we haven't seen in a long time from the White House (going back to Clinton in 1994). It probably has as much to do with the age of the majority of the victims here - all were barely out of diapers. It was the sight of young'uns that spurred to action and even got longtime gun advocates to step back and reassess.

475 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:45:21am

re: #466 dragonfire1981

Man TCOT has really gone off the rails following this press conference, they're already screaming about armed insurrection now that Obama has "officially" declared he's coming for their guns.

There's nobody better at making mountains out of mole-hills.

476 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:46:31am

Fast and Furious gun found at Mexican crime scene

Another weapon from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agency's controversial Operation Fast and Furious was recently recovered at a Mexican crime scene, CBS News has learned. Congressional investigators say the crime scene was likely where a recent shootout took place between reported Sinaloa drug cartel members and the Mexican military, in which Sinaloa beauty queen Maria Susana Flores Gamez and four others were killed.

477 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:47:48am

re: #470 Ghost of Tom Joad

Jeez, the right wets their pants when their guys remind people how rich they are; "it's good news for McCain that he can't remember how many homes he has!" And, of course, their last presidential candidate. Hell was his name again? Apparently they've already scrubbed him from their history books.

Yeah Mr. I live in four different states. They really have a bad habit of accusing others of what they do. See, elitism too.

478 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:50:04am

re: #476 NJDhockeyfan

I'm gonna take a guess that the # of American-made weapons used in the Mexican drug-wars from F&F is infinitesimally tiny compared to the overall, but hey, don't let that get in the way of a good outrage.

479 Political Atheist  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:50:39am

re: #464 Lidane

And the article did a great job of pointing that out.

480 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:50:51am

Drudge twitters that he uses Sandy Hook to push tax hikes.

The link then goes to a site claiming that this statement:

“After what we’ve gone through over the past several months, a devastating hurricane and now one of the worse tragedies in our memory, the country deserves the folks to be willing to compromise for the greater good.”

Idiot. ID-10T error.

In context, this was about dealing with firearms. Not taxes. Compromise is part of politics btw (for those whose heads remain buried in sand).

Obama said nothing about taxes in his statement on his response to Sandy Hook. It was three successive questions by journalists asking about the fiscal cliff and taxes that had the President respond on taxes.

The two were not related and the President didn't broach the subject of taxes. It was journalists asking him about it.

481 blueraven  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:51:17am

re: #474 lawhawk

Jake Tapper asks where Obama's been on the gun issue. "Where have you been?" Well, there's a point there - this isn't the first mass murder by firearms on Obama's watch, so why is this time different for the President.

Obama's answer that he had other things on his plate that were more pressing is true to a point. There were other more pressing issues on his plate, and a president has only so much political capital to use at any given point and politics requires give and take so that if he sought action in one area, it would affect other priorities - such as the economy. However, as President you can't devote all time to just one issue - there are lots of issues to be addressed in any day, and the fact that you're getting 10,000 murders (and a similar number of suicides) by firearms in any year is a troubling and costly statistic. Reducing the firearms deaths and injuries by half could have a tremendous public health benefit by reducing costs.

Now, there's a time and place to deal with firearms in a way and with urgency we haven't seen in a long time from the White House (going back to Clinton in 1994). It probably has as much to do with the age of the majority of the victims here - all were barely out of diapers. It was the sight of young'uns that spurred to action and even got longtime gun advocates to step back and reassess.

I think Obama has always operated on the idea that you strike when the iron is hot. When you have the public on your side. Nothing has galvanized citizens against gun violence as much as this massacre of children. Any proposals prior to this would have probably been futile.

It is sad that it takes something like this before there is a real call for action, but now the people are with the president on this.

Same with DADT and gay marriage. Public sentiment evolved rapidly on these issues.

482 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:51:37am
483 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:53:41am

I'm told I'm to go Christmas shopping. BBL

484 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:54:46am

re: #451 lawhawk

From personal experience, if someone refuses medical treatment, or mental health care, it doesn't matter how much money you have. That person has every right to refuse treatment no matter how beneficial, unless you go through a commitment process that is quite time consuming and favors non-committal because of the requirements needed. Multiple doctors have to find that the person will do harm to themselves or others, immediacy, and other factors involved.

The mother may have been trying to go through the involuntary commitment route but that's a time consuming process.

Those rules need to be revised.

485 allegro  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:56:34am

re: #484 lostlakehiker

Those rules need to be revised.

What do you recommend?

486 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:56:37am

Another day in Australia.

487 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:57:03am

State Department resignations follow Benghazi report

Washington (CNN) -- Three State Department officials, including two who oversaw security decisions at the diplomatic outpost in Benghazi, resigned in the wake of a review of security failures there, senior State Department officials told CNN Wednesday.

The independent review of the September 11 attacks on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi released Tuesday cites "systemic failures and leadership and management deficiencies" at the State Department.
The attacks killed four Americans, including Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens.

The failures resulted in a security plan "that was inadequate for Benghazi and grossly inadequate to deal with the attack that took place," the 39-page unclassified version of the report concludes.

Despite all the criticism, the board found no U.S. government employee had engaged in misconduct or ignored responsibilities, and it did not recommend any individual be disciplined.

Eric Boswell, assistant secretary of diplomatic security, and Charlene Lamb, deputy assistant secretary of state for international programs, submitted their resignations, a senior official said. A third official in the Near East Affairs bureau also resigned, the official said.

488 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:58:14am

Naked driver causes road-rage chaos on Brisbane's M1
THIS is the latest Queensland road-rage attack where, in five minutes of mayhem, a motorist crashed into up to seven cars before he fled his burning vehicle naked.

489 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:58:15am

My co-worker caught part of Alex Jones's ranting this morning on her way to work. She didn't know who he was or anything about him.

I'm now in the middle of explaining his idiocy. She's appalled at the percentage of his listeners who think the Sandy Hook shootings were a false flag (which I also had to explain to her) to repeal the Second Amendment. Fun times.

490 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:59:30am

re: #484 lostlakehiker

I get why they're in place though. For decades, it was all too easy to get someone committed to a mental hospital. The rules are meant to protect the individual from someone taking advantage of the law to commit someone who doesn't need to be committed, but it also means someone who is mostly functional or has moments of lucidity/normalcy can avoid and/or deny treatment.

Mental health laws-involuntary commitment standards vary by state

491 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:59:34am

re: #478 Ghost of Tom Joad

I'm gonna take a guess that the # of American-made weapons used in the Mexican drug-wars from F&F is infinitesimally tiny compared to the overall, but hey, don't let that get in the way of a good outrage.


Fake IDs Used To Buy Guns

[ February 11, 2009] Officials at the GAO used off-the-shelf software to create counterfeit drivers licenses for the five states, inventing fictitious names, Social Security numbers and dates of birth.

Two undercover GAO agents then went to randomly selected gun stores and gun shops where they filmed their purchases of rifles, handguns, semiautomatic weapons, pistols, ammunition clips and hollow point bullets.

The undercover investigators were able to make the purchases 100 percent of the time, the report said.

"They're in business to sell guns," Patrick Sullivan, one of the undercover agents, said of the gun dealers.

492 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:59:43am

re: #488 Gus

Naked driver causes road-rage chaos on Brisbane's M1
THIS is the latest Queensland road-rage attack where, in five minutes of mayhem, a motorist crashed into up to seven cars before he fled his burning vehicle naked.

Ouch. I bet he burned some pretty sensitive areas.

493 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:01:35am

Road rage results in attempted murder charge
Police have charged a 26-year-old man with attempted murder after a shocking case of road rage in Brisbane's east.

494 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:02:00am

re: #447 lawhawk

I saw it, and it looks fake to me. But when you've got a birding expert say that it is exceptionally rare for a golden eagle to be seen in Montreal, and no local news reports indicated as much when it happened, that the whole thing just reeks of hoax/spoof.

And did I mention that this is the poster's first youtube video.

Ah, I did not know this.

495 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:03:01am

Oh, well that's good to know:

Remind me again why Norquist has any influence in the GOP?

496 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:03:11am

re: #465 lawhawk

@BryanJFischer And you keep reminding us just how you're a sad strange little man

He doesn't have my pity!

497 erik_t  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:04:23am

re: #495 Lidane

Remind me again why Norquist has any influence in the GOP?

The GOP trades in fear. This cuts in more ways than one.

498 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:05:08am

re: #495 Lidane

Oh, well that's good to know:

[Embedded content]

Remind me again why Norquist has any influence in the GOP?

They're afraid more of getting primaried for violating the stupid pledge than actually doing anything constructive for the American people.

499 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:07:54am

re: #495 Lidane

Oh, well that's good to know:

[Embedded content]

Remind me again why Norquist has any influence in the GOP?

It's really strange. For the most part, it seems like the elected officials have no ability to think for themselves (which does seem plausible), so they latch on to these outside "sources" like Norquist, Limbaugh etc. to get their ideas and agendas.

It's the complete opposite on the other side. When's the last time you heard a Democrat legislating according to Michael Moore, or Rachel Maddow (I'm spitballing those names, but you get my point)?

500 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:08:19am

re: #498 HappyWarrior

They're afraid more of getting primaried for violating the stupid pledge than actually doing anything constructive for the American people.

The NRA is to gun control legislation what Grover Norquist is to tax legislation.

The Scourge of God.

501 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:09:24am

What could possibly go wrong?

502 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:11:38am

re: #501 Lidane

What could possibly go wrong?

[Embedded content]

Funny how they leave out movie theaters, or shopping malls, or any number of places a mass shooting has occurred.

503 blueraven  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:12:07am

re: #500 Sol Berdinowitz

The NRA is to gun control legislation what Grover Norquist is to tax legislation.

The Scourge of God.

Norquist is on the Board of Directors for the NRA.

504 erik_t  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:12:16am

re: #501 Lidane

What could possibly go wrong?

Well, I suppose that's one way to gut public education.

Have these people ever met more than one or two teachers?

505 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:15:41am

re: #501 Lidane

What could possibly go wrong?

Virginia Republican legislator wants to REQUIRE concealed weapons in schools.

Obama seems to be biding his time, giving these idiots ample oppoertunity to let sane people all over the country just what he is up against before stepping in as the Adult in the Room.

Worked well with the birthers, will work on the gun nuts.

506 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:17:19am

And Jim Hoft is already twittering away on how Tapper hammered Obama on the "where have you been on gun control" question.

Fact is that President Obama called for action after Rep. Giffords was nearly assassinated, but it fell on deaf ears in Congress. The President can't do much to legislate changes in gun policy when that's the realm of Congress.

507 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:17:28am
508 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:18:19am

re: #507 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Va Tech was ivory tower elitists being shot. This is different.
///// :p

509 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:18:26am

DeMint is already hard at work, it seems:

510 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:21:47am

re: #484 lostlakehiker

Those rules need to be revised.

Be specific. What about the rules need to be revised? What are the diagnostic criteria that will let us forcibly incarcerate someone?

511 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:24:35am

re: #486 Gus

Another day in Australia.

[Embedded content]

Just imagine what it would be like if they had a bunch of guns!

512 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:25:33am

re: #510 Obdicut

Be specific. What about the rules need to be revised? What are the diagnostic criteria that will let us forcibly incarcerate someone?

Whatever it is, it'll infringe on Freedumb way, way, way more than any weapons restrictions will.

513 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:26:43am

re: #511 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Just imagine what it would be like if they had a bunch of guns!

Maybe worse than the USA? :O

514 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:27:51am

Awesome. Getting colder. Wind Chill 1°F (-17°C)

515 erik_t  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:28:54am

re: #514 Gus

Awesome. Getting colder. Wind Chill 1°F (-17°C)

The C stands for communist. The F stands for Faith.
Is Gus a communist socialist muslokenyan? We report, you decide!

516 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:29:32am

re: #514 Gus

Northern Canuckistan or something? Been in the 50s out here in NY.

517 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:29:54am

re: #494 Four More Tears

Turns out it was actually a college CGI project.

The “Golden Eagle Snatches Kid” video, uploaded to YouTube on the evening of December 18, was made by Normand Archambault, Loïc Mireault and Félix Marquis-Poulin, students at Centre NAD, in the production simulation workshop class of the Bachelors degree in 3D Animation and Digital Design.

The video shows a royal eagle snatching a young kid while he plays under the watch of his dad. The eagle then drops the kid a few feet away. Both the eagle and the kid were created in 3D animation and integrated in to the film afterwards.

The video has already received more than 1,200,000 views on YouTube and has been mentioned by dozens of media in Canada and abroad.

The production simulation workshop class, offered in fifth semester, aims to produce creative projects according to industry production and quality standards while developing team work skills. Hoaxes produced in this class have already garnered attention, amongst others a video of a penguin having escaped the Montreal Biodôme.

518 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:29:56am
519 Coracle  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:30:05am

re: #476 NJDhockeyfan

Fast and Furious gun found at Mexican crime scene

I'll start the impeachment process immediately.

Troll.

520 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:30:33am

re: #517 lawhawk

Future Pixar employees.

521 erik_t  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:31:24am

re: #518 Gus

@Dharapak @chucktodd @edhenryTV @MajorCBS @jaketapper @AP Talk about homogenous. #p2 #tlot

One of them has facial hair! Diversity!

522 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:34:18am

re: #501 Lidane

What could possibly go wrong?

[Embedded content]

Knew that was Bob Marshall the second I saw it.

523 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:34:42am

re: #521 erik_t

One of them has facial hair! Diversity!

Todd, Henry, Tapper, Garrett. They're all descendents of the UK. Medieval Englishmen. Same suits, same hair styles.

524 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:35:35am

re: #484 lostlakehiker

Those rules need to be revised.

So you'd rather people were able to commit and imprison each other with less oversight, a real denial of freedom, than remove the pretend freedom of guns?

Gun fantasists make less and less sense all the time.

525 blueraven  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:37:19am

re: #514 Gus

Awesome. Getting colder. Wind Chill 1°F (-17°C)

76.6 here now. Yesterday low 80s. Doesn't feel much like Christmas here in Austin, although a cold front expected tomorrow for a high of 55.

526 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:37:55am

Tapper appears to be a German name.

527 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:37:55am

re: #328 Gus

Every weapon, not just a gun, can be an "assault weapon," a "deadly weapon," or a "high powered weapon."

— Dana Loesch (@DLoesch) December 19, 2012

Cool, my sword is "high powered".

528 erik_t  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:38:20am

re: #525 blueraven

76.6 here now. Yesterday low 80s. Doesn't feel much like Christmas here in Austin, although a cold front expected tomorrow for a high of 55.

Iowa's about to get hammered by ALL THE SNOW. I'm super jealous.

529 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:40:55am

re: #527 Eventual Carrion

Cool, my sword is "high powered".

Every computer can be a "super" computer. Every car can be a "sports" car.

530 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:41:31am

re: #524 Renaissance_Man

So you'd rather people were able to commit and imprison each other with less oversight, a real denial of freedom, than remove the pretend freedom of guns?

Gun fantasists make less and less sense all the time.

It makes perfect sense to them. "There is no problem so big or so complex that it can't be solved with gigantic amounts of firepower."

But the mentally ill can always rationalize any belief.

531 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:41:49am

re: #529 Kragar

Every computer can be a "super" computer. Every car can be a "sports" car.

And every pot-belled, balding, middle-aged man can be a "super stud"

532 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:42:38am

re: #525 blueraven

re: #528 erik_t

Iowa's about to get hammered by ALL THE SNOW. I'm super jealous.

After a raw weekend (rainy, chilly, windy) Atlanta is mid 60's with nary a cloud
Cold fro9n moving in tomorrow bringing some rain followed by a few sunny days in the high 40's/ low 50's

533 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:42:44am

re: #529 Kragar

Every computer can be a "super" computer. Every car can be a "sports" car.

Anything can be a deadly weapon! I can whack you on the side of your head with my PC tower yielding deadly results. Thus making my PC tower a potential deadly weapon. See how absurd it is to call a gun a deadly weapon then?

//

534 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:43:24am

If the mass shooters don't have access to guns then they'll resort to catapults and hot oil! See how easy it is?

//

535 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:44:07am

re: #341 b_sharp

The pencil is mightier than the sword.

Even my "high powered" sword?

536 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:44:12am

re: #529 Kragar

Every computer can be a "super" computer. Every car can be a "sports" car.

537 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:44:45am

Banning guns won't make any difference because criminals will just do it illegally anyway! This is why we don't support legislation to make abortions illegal!

//

538 erik_t  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:45:40am

Yesterday, it was observed to me that the United States does not have a terribly successful track record in prohibiting dangerous/deadly substances. I did not have an immediate rejoinder.

There was no implication that this was an ironclad case against increased gun control, nor that it was a perfect analogy, but I did find it interesting.

539 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:47:52am

re: #538 erik_t

Yesterday, it was observed to me that the United States does not have a terribly successful track record in prohibiting dangerous/deadly substances. I did not have an immediate rejoinder.

There was no implication that this was an ironclad case against increased gun control, nor that it was a perfect analogy, but I did find it interesting.

Follow the money.

540 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:48:10am

re: #537 GunstarGreen

Banning guns won't make any difference because criminals will just do it illegally anyway! This is why we don't support legislation to make abortions illegal!

//

If we banned guns the spree killers would start using sporks.

//

541 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:48:47am

Federal Department of Speed and Fury

has a nice ring to it...

542 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:48:58am
543 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:49:29am

Business as usual

Shooting mega-store Cheaper Than Dirt just announced they will resume online gun sales.

Cheaper Than Dirt! will resume online sales of firearms once we update and improve our process. Firearms will continue to ship only to FFL dealers. We have received an overwhelming number of orders; Please allow up to 72 hours for your order to ship.

Typical responses from their outraged clientele:

Too late, ya cowards.

I will never buy anything from you traitors again. Thanks for nothing.

Davidson's Gallery of Guns, which never even paused in their effort to serve the buying stampede, posted this notice on their website today:

Due to unprecedented demand, currently it may take us up to 7 days to process and ship orders placed at GalleryofGuns.com. Although shipments are delayed, a specific serial number is reserved in our system at the time firearms are ordered, thus assuring their fulfillment.

544 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:50:08am

re: #542 Kragar

WND: Jews Leading the War on Christmas

Yeah, it's just like the Spanish Inquisition but instead of being tortured for being a non-Christian, Christians are being wished Happy Holidays! The terror.

545 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:50:50am

re: #542 Kragar

WND: Jews Leading the War on Christmas

Had that upthread.

Absolute Cyclone B-grade wingnuttery.


Time to draw these people out into the open, let the sane people have a good look at who they area and who is funding them.

546 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:52:31am

re: #543 Shiplord Kirel

I'm sure a lot of these weapon purchases are being done in lieu of spending money on important things, like food and clothes for their children and other things.

Nice work gun-nutters. Bunch of useless assholes.

547 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:54:06am

re: #328 Gus

Dana Loesch: Every weapon, not just a gun, can be an “assault weapon,” a “deadly weapon,” or a “high powered weapon.”

Sure, Loesch, that's why so many so many spree killers have chosen to arm themselves with pikes and flintlock pistols. ///

548 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:54:17am
549 Cinnabar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:57:35am

re: #482 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

[Embedded content]

He's emphasizing that he's not charging additional taxes he won't pay himself, you nitwit.

550 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:57:45am

re: #533 Gus

Anything can be a deadly weapon! I can whack you on the side of your head with my PC tower yielding deadly results. Thus making my PC tower a potential deadly weapon. See how absurd it is to call a gun a deadly weapon then?

//

Let me show you the damage you can do with a rolled up magazine. Harder and heavier than a piece of wood the same size.

551 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:59:15am

re: #543 Shiplord Kirel

Business as usual

Shooting mega-store Cheaper Than Dirt just announced they will resume online gun sales.

Typical responses from their outraged clientele:

Davidson's Gallery of Guns, which never even paused in their effort to serve the buying stampede, posted this notice on their website today:

I cannot even begin to imagine the kind of core-deep mental rot, the kind of pure, all-encompassing sickness, that would be required to respond to this tragedy with "Gotta buy mah gunz b'fore Obammy takes 'em". What it must be like to live a life that is filled, constantly and completely, with an all-encompassing fear of The Gub'Mint™ coming to disarm you.

As if your guns would do you any good at all when they just roll a tank through your front door and tell you to drop it.

It is a uniquely American illness to simultaneously live in fear of some great dark Tyranny™, and believe that there is even a single thing you could do about it if the US government actually did want to oppress you.

552 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:59:50am

re: #542 Kragar

WND: Jews Leading the War on Christmas

It's the Muslims JOOOOOOOOZZZ, man!!1!

553 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:00:04am
554 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:00:29am

re: #541 Sol Berdinowitz

Federal Department of Speed Sound and Fury

FTFY.

555 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:01:17am

re: #542 Kragar

WND: Jews Leading the War on Christmas

WTF? I thought it was Muslims. Why do Teh Juice always have to ruin things for us?? //

556 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:02:12am

re: #553 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Look what I found:

The United States is not a Christian Nation. (February, 1850)

Look at that, a war on Christmas in the 19th century. Just wait till you tell them that the Puritans actually banned Christmas. So yes, right wing assholes, the people who have actually waged war on Christmas have not been secular liberals but rather religious Christian traditionalists.

557 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:02:15am

re: #555 CuriousLurker

WTF? I thought it was Muslims. Why do Teh Juice always always have to ruin things for us?? //

We have many more years of experience at being Eebil Overlords.//

558 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:03:38am

re: #557 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

We have many more years of experience at being Eebil Overlords.//

Shit. We're never gonna catch up. *sniffle* //

559 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:04:43am

re: #551 GunstarGreen

I cannot even begin to imagine the kind of core-deep mental rot, the kind of pure, all-encompassing sickness, that would be required to respond to this tragedy with "Gotta buy mah gunz b'fore Obammy takes 'em". What it must be like to live a life that is filled, constantly and completely, with an all-encompassing fear of The Gub'Mint™ coming to disarm you.

As if your guns would do you any good at all when they just roll a tank through your front door and tell you to drop it fire a couple of Hellfire missiles into their remote cabins while they're sitting on the john dropping a deuce while reading The Turner Diaries.

It is a uniquely American illness to simultaneously live in fear of some great dark Tyranny™, and believe that there is even a single thing you could do about it if the US government actually did want to oppress you.

FTFY.

560 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:06:33am

re: #555 CuriousLurker

WTF? I thought it was Muslims. Why do Teh Juice always have to ruin things for us?? //

The wingnuts seem to have a hard time figuring who their "enemies" are.

561 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:07:20am

re: #559 Dr Lizardo

FTFY.

True. These days, there wouldn't even be any Tyrannical Oppressors for you to use your guns on. They'd just send some remote-targeted missiles, bombs, or drones your way. Good luck using your Bushmaster for "self defense" in that case.

562 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:07:44am
re: #551 GunstarGreenWhat it must be like to live a life that is filled, constantly and completely, with an all-encompassing fear of The Gub'Mint™ coming to disarm you.

Actually, it makes you feel pretty good. All those endorphins and all the other hormones and chemicals the body floods itself with when a person is scared out of their gourd. It's a real fucking rush, man.

Which explains much of their behaviour. All long term addicts suffer from cognitive impairment.

563 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:08:00am

re: #557 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

We have many more years of experience at being Eebil Overlords.//

lol.

I hope I'm not the only one who's noticed this, but a lot of the Islam-bashing memes the RWers come up with are really nothing more than repackaged anti-Semitic tropes from the 19th century.

564 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:09:25am

re: #563 Dr Lizardo

lol.

I hope I'm not the only one who's noticed this, but a lot of the Islam-bashing memes the RWers come up with are really nothing more than repackaged anti-Semitic tropes from the 19th century.

Nah, we just gave up pointing it out around December 2001, when it became quite clear that the anti-Islam crowd was utterly incapable of seeing the parallels.

565 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:10:31am

re: #561 GunstarGreen

True. These days, there wouldn't even be any Tyrannical Oppressors for you to use your guns on. They'd just send some remote-targeted missiles, bombs, or drones your way. Good luck using your Bushmaster for "self defense" in that case.

Indeed. Try telling the hardcore RWNJ's that their Bushmaster is stunningly ineffective against a Predator drone armed with Hellfires.

Heh. I wonder what they'd say?

566 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:11:16am

re: #563 Dr Lizardo

lol.

I hope I'm not the only one who's noticed this, but a lot of the Islam-bashing memes the RWers come up with are really nothing more than repackaged anti-Semitic tropes from the 19th century.

It's been noticed, repeatedly. ;)

567 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:13:08am

re: #565 Dr Lizardo

Indeed. Try telling the hardcore RWNJ's that their Bushmaster is stunningly ineffective against a Predator drone armed with Hellfires.

Heh. I wonder what they'd say?

They'd probably ask for government subsidies so that they can obey the 2nd Amendment, especially the part that says anyone can have any weapon they want because, FREEDOM!

568 CuriousLurker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:14:50am

re: #563 Dr Lizardo

The whole creeping Sharia thing is similar to what has been leveled at the "papist" Catholics as well (regarding where their loyalties lie and how Rome would be running the U.S.) *eyeroll*

569 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:16:13am

re: #564 GunstarGreen

Nah, we just gave up pointing it out around December 2001, when it became quite clear that the anti-Islam crowd was utterly incapable of seeing the parallels.

Remember Pammy's "Halal Jihad Turkeys".....I read that, and immediately glommed onto the fact that it was nothing more than the Birchers "Kosher Tax" nonsense operating under a new label. My favorite is their whole taqiyya nonsense.

If these fools were serious, why don't try studying under a Sheikh or something? When I wanted to learn more about Islam after 9/11, I got my hands on the Qur'an. When I wanted further clarification, I spent six weeks studying under Sheikh Muhammad Nazim Al-Qubrusi in Lefke. Then I consulted fiqh experts.

I'm still working my way through various commentaries on the Qur'an. Right now, I'm on the Risale-i-nur of Bediuzzaman.

570 GunstarGreen  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:26:37am

re: #569 Dr Lizardo

Remember Pammy's "Halal Jihad Turkeys".....I read that, and immediately glommed onto the fact that it was nothing more than the Birchers "Kosher Tax" nonsense operating under a new label. My favorite is their whole taqiyya nonsense.

If these fools were serious, why don't try studying under a Sheikh or something? When I wanted to learn more about Islam after 9/11, I got my hands on the Qur'an. When I wanted further clarification, I spent six weeks studying under Sheikh Muhammad Nazim Al-Qubrusi in Lefke. Then I consulted fiqh experts.

I'm still working my way through various commentaries on the Qur'an. Right now, I'm on the Risale-i-nur of Bediuzzaman.

Because they're not serious about anything other than hatred of The Other. They have no desire to learn about what Islam actually is, or what it means to people that follow it. All they know, and all they care to know, is that it's a non-Christian religion for brown people and thus Evil. Again, the parallels are striking.

571 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:30:39am

re: #568 CuriousLurker

The whole creeping Sharia thing is similar to what has been leveled at the "papist" Catholics as well (regarding where their loyalties lie and how Rome would be running the U.S.) *eyeroll*

Very much so. Also, leveled against Mormons as well, if I recall correctly.

572 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:32:51am

re: #570 GunstarGreen

Because they're not serious about anything other than hatred of The Other. They have no desire to learn about what Islam actually is, or what it means to people that follow it. All they know, and all they care to know, is that it's a non-Christian religion for brown people and thus Evil. Again, the parallels are striking.

You know, their heads explode when they meet white, totally American converts like me.

Who like Iron Maiden, the Dead Kennedys, totally enjoyed "The Avengers" and "The Dark Knight Rises" and enjoy reading things as diverse as Immanuel Kant to Stephen King to H.P. Lovecraft.

573 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:34:24am

re: #567 Romantic Heretic

They'd probably ask for government subsidies so that they can obey the 2nd Amendment, especially the part that says anyone can have any weapon they want because, FREEDOM!

LOL!

Now where's mah tactical nukes? I'm bein' oppressed!

574 Amory Blaine  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:56:14am

re: #518 Gus

[Embedded content]

Looks like the makings of an A Capella group. Boys 2 Douchebags.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

TwitterFacebook

Turn off all ads for a full year by subscribing!
Take advantage of our end-of-the-year subscription special, and save 25% off the normal subscription price! For a limited time, one-year ad-free subscriptions are just $59.95. Turn off all ads for a full year by subscribing now and save!
Read more...

► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Articles

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Pages

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form
LGF Pages

This button leads to the main index of LGF Pages, our user-submitted articles. You can post your own LGF Pages simply by registering a free account with us.

Create a Page

This is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.

Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.

Last updated: 2014-12-15 2:06 pm PST

LGF User's Guide
Recent Pages
Randall Gross
Cuba’s Parliament Backs Move to Re-Establish Diplomatic Ties With U.S.
The Cuban national assembly announced on Friday that it would back the agreement of President Raul Castro and U.S. President Barack Obama to restore diplomatic ties that Washington severed more than 50 years ago. "In the name of the ...

2 hours, 58 minutes ago
Views: 65 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0
FemNaziBitch
‘God Loves Women Who Have Abortions’: The Religious Abortion Advocates That History Forgot
The New York legislature had just failed to pass an incremental reform to the state's strict anti-abortion law, leaving the status quo in place. At that time, deaths resulting from illegal abortions accounted for 42 percent of New York ...

3 days, 1 hour ago
Views: 446 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 25 • Rating: 0
Rightwingconspirator
Blackmores Night-Christmas Music Olde And New At The Same Time
Spotify Youtube

3 days, 20 hours ago
Views: 219 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 1
Lumberhead
A History of Thugs
Civilization is imperiled. Demonic dark-skinned criminals exult in seizing property and security. Only a vanguard of brave uniformed officers can take them off the streets and restore order. It is 1835, and whites are finally confronting what Mark Twain ...

1 week, 2 days ago
Views: 664 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 1
Romantic Heretic
It’s Beginning To Feel A Lot Like Christmas
As always, Fairytale of New York makes me realize what time of the year it is.

1 week, 3 days ago
Views: 415 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 2
Dark_Falcon
The College Rape Overcorrection
This is the article I promised to post this morning. The quoted passage is from the second section, "2. An Overcorrection". We are told that one of the most dangerous places for a young woman in America today is a ...

1 week, 3 days ago
Views: 734 • Comments: 11
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 1
cinesimon
Charles Barkley and the Plague of ‘Unintelligent’ Blacks
theatlantic.com

1 week, 3 days ago
Views: 762 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 2
 Frank says:

Star Wars won't work. Star Wars won't work. The gas still gets through; it could get right on you. And what about those germs, now? Star Wars won't work.