Transcript: President Obama’s Remarks on NSA Reforms

“The world expects us to ensure that the digital revolution works as a tool for individual empowerment rather than government co
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Here’s the complete speech on proposed NSA reforms given by President Obama today, for the record.

As Prepared for Delivery -

At the dawn of our Republic, a small, secret surveillance committee born out of the “The Sons of Liberty” was established in Boston. The group’s members included Paul Revere, and at night they would patrol the streets, reporting back any signs that the British were preparing raids against America’s early Patriots.

Throughout American history, intelligence has helped secure our country and our freedoms. In the Civil War, Union balloon reconnaissance tracked the size of Confederate armies by counting the number of camp fires. In World War II, code-breaking gave us insight into Japanese war plans, and when Patton marched across Europe, intercepted communications helped save the lives of his troops. After the war, the rise of the Iron Curtain and nuclear weapons only increased the need for sustained intelligence-gathering. And so, in the early days of the Cold War, President Truman created the National Security Agency to give us insight into the Soviet bloc, and provide our leaders with information they needed to confront aggression and avert catastrophe.

Throughout this evolution, we benefited from both our Constitution and traditions of limited government. U.S. intelligence agencies were anchored in our system of checks and balances - with oversight from elected leaders, and protections for ordinary citizens. Meanwhile, totalitarian states like East Germany offered a cautionary tale of what could happen when vast, unchecked surveillance turned citizens into informers, and persecuted people for what they said in the privacy of their own homes.

In fact even the United States proved not to be immune to the abuse of surveillance. In the 1960s, government spied on civil rights leaders and critics of the Vietnam War. Partly in response to these revelations, additional laws were established in the 1970s to ensure that our intelligence capabilities could not be misused against our citizens. In the long, twilight struggle against Communism, we had been reminded that the very liberties that we sought to preserve could not be sacrificed at the altar of national security.

If the fall of the Soviet Union left America without a competing superpower, emerging threats from terrorist groups, and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction placed new - and, in some ways more complicated - demands on our intelligence agencies. Globalization and the Internet made these threats more acute, as technology erased borders and empowered individuals to project great violence, as well as great good. Moreover, these new threats raised new legal and policy questions. For while few doubted the legitimacy of spying on hostile states, our framework of laws was not fully adapted to prevent terrorist attacks by individuals acting on their own, or acting in small, ideologically driven groups rather than on behalf of a foreign power.

The horror of September 11th brought these issues to the fore. Across the political spectrum, Americans recognized that we had to adapt to a world in which a bomb could be built in a basement, and our electric grid could be shut down by operators an ocean away. We were shaken by the signs we had missed leading up to the attacks - how the hijackers had made phone calls to known extremists, and travelled to suspicious places. So we demanded that our intelligence community improve its capabilities, and that law enforcement change practices to focus more on preventing attacks before they happen than prosecuting terrorists after an attack.

It is hard to overstate the transformation America’s intelligence community had to go through after 9/11. Our agencies suddenly needed to do far more than the traditional mission of monitoring hostile powers and gathering information for policymakers - instead, they were asked to identify and target plotters in some of the most remote parts of the world, and to anticipate the actions of networks that, by their very nature, cannot be easily penetrated with spies or informants.

And it is a testimony to the hard work and dedication of the men and women in our intelligence community that over the past decade, we made enormous strides in fulfilling this mission. Today, new capabilities allow intelligence agencies to track who a terrorist is in contact with, and follow the trail of his travel or funding. New laws allow information to be collected and shared more quickly between federal agencies, and state and local law enforcement. Relationships with foreign intelligence services have expanded, and our capacity to repel cyber-attacks has been strengthened. Taken together, these efforts have prevented multiple attacks and saved innocent lives - not just here in the United States, but around the globe as well.

And yet, in our rush to respond to very real and novel threats, the risks of government overreach - the possibility that we lose some of our core liberties in pursuit of security - became more pronounced. We saw, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, our government engaged in enhanced interrogation techniques that contradicted our values. As a Senator, I was critical of several practices, such as warrantless wiretaps. And all too often new authorities were instituted without adequate public debate.

Through a combination of action by the courts, increased congressional oversight, and adjustments by the previous Administration, some of the worst excesses that emerged after 9/11 were curbed by the time I took office. But a variety of factors have continued to complicate America’s efforts to both defend our nation and uphold our civil liberties.

First, the same technological advances that allow U.S. intelligence agencies to pin-point an al Qaeda cell in Yemen or an email between two terrorists in the Sahel, also mean that many routine communications around the world are within our reach. At a time when more and more of our lives are digital, that prospect is disquieting for all of us.

Second, the combination of increased digital information and powerful supercomputers offers intelligence agencies the possibility of sifting through massive amounts of bulk data to identify patterns or pursue leads that may thwart impending threats. But the government collection and storage of such bulk data also creates a potential for abuse.

Third, the legal safeguards that restrict surveillance against U.S. persons without a warrant do not apply to foreign persons overseas. This is not unique to America; few, if any, spy agencies around the world constrain their activities beyond their own borders. And the whole point of intelligence is to obtain information that is not publicly available. But America’s capabilities are unique. And the power of new technologies means that there are fewer and fewer technical constraints on what we can do. That places a special obligation on us to ask tough questions about what we should do.

Finally, intelligence agencies cannot function without secrecy, which makes their work less subject to public debate. Yet there is an inevitable bias not only within the intelligence community, but among all who are responsible for national security, to collect more information about the world, not less. So in the absence of institutional requirements for regular debate - and oversight that is public, as well as private - the danger of government overreach becomes more acute. This is particularly true when surveillance technology and our reliance on digital information is evolving much faster than our laws.

For all these reasons, I maintained a healthy skepticism toward our surveillance programs after I became President. I ordered that our programs be reviewed by my national security team and our lawyers, and in some cases I ordered changes in how we did business. We increased oversight and auditing, including new structures aimed at compliance. Improved rules were proposed by the government and approved by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. And we sought to keep Congress continually updated on these activities.

What I did not do is stop these programs wholesale - not only because I felt that they made us more secure; but also because nothing in that initial review, and nothing that I have learned since, indicated that our intelligence community has sought to violate the law or is cavalier about the civil liberties of their fellow citizens.

To the contrary, in an extraordinarily difficult job, one in which actions are second-guessed, success is unreported, and failure can be catastrophic, the men and women of the intelligence community, including the NSA, consistently follow protocols designed to protect the privacy of ordinary people. They are not abusing authorities in order to listen to your private phone calls, or read your emails. When mistakes are made - which is inevitable in any large and complicated human enterprise - they correct those mistakes. Laboring in obscurity, often unable to discuss their work even with family and friends, they know that if another 9/11 or massive cyber-attack occurs, they will be asked, by Congress and the media, why they failed to connect the dots. What sustains those who work at NSA through all these pressures is the knowledge that their professionalism and dedication play a central role in the defense of our nation.

To say that our intelligence community follows the law, and is staffed by patriots, is not to suggest that I, or others in my Administration, felt complacent about the potential impact of these programs. Those of us who hold office in America have a responsibility to our Constitution, and while I was confident in the integrity of those in our intelligence community, it was clear to me in observing our intelligence operations on a regular basis that changes in our technological capabilities were raising new questions about the privacy safeguards currently in place. Moreover, after an extended review of our use of drones in the fight against terrorist networks, I believed a fresh examination of our surveillance programs was a necessary next step in our effort to get off the open ended war-footing that we have maintained since 9/11. For these reasons, I indicated in a speech at the National Defense University last May that we needed a more robust public discussion about the balance between security and liberty. What I did not know at the time is that within weeks of my speech, an avalanche of unauthorized disclosures would spark controversies at home and abroad that have continued to this day.

Given the fact of an open investigation, I’m not going to dwell on Mr. Snowden’s actions or motivations. I will say that our nation’s defense depends in part on the fidelity of those entrusted with our nation’s secrets. If any individual who objects to government policy can take it in their own hands to publicly disclose classified information, then we will never be able to keep our people safe, or conduct foreign policy. Moreover, the sensational way in which these disclosures have come out has often shed more heat than light, while revealing methods to our adversaries that could impact our operations in ways that we may not fully understand for years to come.

Regardless of how we got here, though, the task before us now is greater than simply repairing the damage done to our operations; or preventing more disclosures from taking place in the future. Instead, we have to make some important decisions about how to protect ourselves and sustain our leadership in the world, while upholding the civil liberties and privacy protections that our ideals - and our Constitution - require. We need to do so not only because it is right, but because the challenges posed by threats like terrorism, proliferation, and cyber-attacks are not going away any time soon, and for our intelligence community to be effective over the long haul, we must maintain the trust of the American people, and people around the world.

This effort will not be completed overnight, and given the pace of technological change, we shouldn’t expect this to be the last time America has this debate. But I want the American people to know that the work has begun. Over the last six months, I created an outside Review Group on Intelligence and Communications Technologies to make recommendations for reform. I’ve consulted with the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board. I’ve listened to foreign partners, privacy advocates, and industry leaders. My Administration has spent countless hours considering how to approach intelligence in this era of diffuse threats and technological revolution. And before outlining specific changes that I have ordered, let me make a few broad observations that have emerged from this process.

First, everyone who has looked at these problems, including skeptics of existing programs, recognizes that we have real enemies and threats, and that intelligence serves a vital role in confronting them. We cannot prevent terrorist attacks or cyber-threats without some capability to penetrate digital communications - whether it’s to unravel a terrorist plot; to intercept malware that targets a stock exchange; to make sure air traffic control systems are not compromised; or to ensure that hackers do not empty your bank accounts.

Moreover, we cannot unilaterally disarm our intelligence agencies. There is a reason why blackberries and I-Phones are not allowed in the White House Situation Room. We know that the intelligence services of other countries - including some who feign surprise over the Snowden disclosures - are constantly probing our government and private sector networks, and accelerating programs to listen to our conversations, intercept our emails, or compromise our systems. Meanwhile, a number of countries, including some who have loudly criticized the NSA, privately acknowledge that America has special responsibilities as the world’s only superpower; that our intelligence capabilities are critical to meeting these responsibilities; and that they themselves have relied on the information we obtain to protect their own people.

Second, just as ardent civil libertarians recognize the need for robust intelligence capabilities, those with responsibilities for our national security readily acknowledge the potential for abuse as intelligence capabilities advance, and more and more private information is digitized. After all, the folks at NSA and other intelligence agencies are our neighbors and our friends. They have electronic bank and medical records like everyone else. They have kids on Facebook and Instagram, and they know, more than most of us, the vulnerabilities to privacy that exist in a world where transactions are recorded; emails and text messages are stored; and even our movements can be tracked through the GPS on our phones.

Third, there was a recognition by all who participated in these reviews that the challenges to our privacy do not come from government alone. Corporations of all shapes and sizes track what you buy, store and analyze our data, and use it for commercial purposes; that’s how those targeted ads pop up on your computer or smartphone. But all of us understand that the standards for government surveillance must be higher. Given the unique power of the state, it is not enough for leaders to say: trust us, we won’t abuse the data we collect. For history has too many examples when that trust has been breached. Our system of government is built on the premise that our liberty cannot depend on the good intentions of those in power; it depends upon the law to constrain those in power.

I make these observations to underscore that the basic values of most Americans when it comes to questions of surveillance and privacy converge far more than the crude characterizations that have emerged over the last several months. Those who are troubled by our existing programs are not interested in a repeat of 9/11, and those who defend these programs are not dismissive of civil liberties. The challenge is getting the details right, and that’s not simple. Indeed, during the course of our review, I have often reminded myself that I would not be where I am today were it not for the courage of dissidents, like Dr. King, who were spied on by their own government; as a President who looks at intelligence every morning, I also can’t help but be reminded that America must be vigilant in the face of threats.

Fortunately, by focusing on facts and specifics rather than speculation and hypotheticals, this review process has given me - and hopefully the American people - some clear direction for change. And today, I can announce a series of concrete and substantial reforms that my Administration intends to adopt administratively or will seek to codify with Congress.

First, I have approved a new presidential directive for our signals intelligence activities, at home and abroad. This guidance will strengthen executive branch oversight of our intelligence activities. It will ensure that we take into account our security requirements, but also our alliances; our trade and investment relationships, including the concerns of America’s companies; and our commitment to privacy and basic liberties. And we will review decisions about intelligence priorities and sensitive targets on an annual basis, so that our actions are regularly scrutinized by my senior national security team.

Second, we will reform programs and procedures in place to provide greater transparency to our surveillance activities, and fortify the safeguards that protect the privacy of U.S. persons. Since we began this review, including information being released today, we have declassified over 40 opinions and orders of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which provides judicial review of some of our most sensitive intelligence activities - including the Section 702 program targeting foreign individuals overseas and the Section 215 telephone metadata program. Going forward, I am directing the Director of National Intelligence, in consultation with the Attorney General, to annually review - for the purpose of declassification - any future opinions of the Court with broad privacy implications, and to report to me and Congress on these efforts. To ensure that the Court hears a broader range of privacy perspectives, I am calling on Congress to authorize the establishment of a panel of advocates from outside government to provide an independent voice in significant cases before the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

Third, we will provide additional protections for activities conducted under Section 702, which allows the government to intercept the communications of foreign targets overseas who have information that’s important for our national security. Specifically, I am asking the Attorney General and DNI to institute reforms that place additional restrictions on government’s ability to retain, search, and use in criminal cases, communications between Americans and foreign citizens incidentally collected under Section 702.

Fourth, in investigating threats, the FBI also relies on National Security Letters, which can require companies to provide specific and limited information to the government without disclosing the orders to the subject of the investigation. These are cases in which it is important that the subject of the investigation, such as a possible terrorist or spy, isn’t tipped off. But we can - and should - be more transparent in how government uses this authority. I have therefore directed the Attorney General to amend how we use National Security Letters so this secrecy will not be indefinite, and will terminate within a fixed time unless the government demonstrates a real need for further secrecy. We will also enable communications providers to make public more information than ever before about the orders they have received to provide data to the government.

This brings me to program that has generated the most controversy these past few months - the bulk collection of telephone records under Section 215. Let me repeat what I said when this story first broke - this program does not involve the content of phone calls, or the names of people making calls. Instead, it provides a record of phone numbers and the times and lengths of calls - meta-data that can be queried if and when we have a reasonable suspicion that a particular number is linked to a terrorist organization.

Why is this necessary? The program grew out of a desire to address a gap identified after 9/11. One of the 9/11 hijackers - Khalid al-Mihdhar - made a phone call from San Diego to a known al Qaeda safe-house in Yemen. NSA saw that call, but could not see that it was coming from an individual already in the United States. The telephone metadata program under Section 215 was designed to map the communications of terrorists, so we can see who they may be in contact with as quickly as possible. This capability could also prove valuable in a crisis. For example, if a bomb goes off in one of our cities and law enforcement is racing to determine whether a network is poised to conduct additional attacks, time is of the essence. Being able to quickly review telephone connections to assess whether a network exists is critical to that effort.

In sum, the program does not involve the NSA examining the phone records of ordinary Americans. Rather, it consolidates these records into a database that the government can query if it has a specific lead - phone records that the companies already retain for business purposes. The Review Group turned up no indication that this database has been intentionally abused. And I believe it is important that the capability that this program is designed to meet is preserved.

Having said that, I believe critics are right to point out that without proper safeguards, this type of program could be used to yield more information about our private lives, and open the door to more intrusive, bulk collection programs. They also rightly point out that although the telephone bulk collection program was subject to oversight by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and has been reauthorized repeatedly by Congress, it has never been subject to vigorous public debate.

For all these reasons, I believe we need a new approach. I am therefore ordering a transition that will end the Section 215 bulk metadata program as it currently exists, and establish a mechanism that preserves the capabilities we need without the government holding this bulk meta-data.

This will not be simple. The Review Group recommended that our current approach be replaced by one in which the providers or a third party retain the bulk records, with the government accessing information as needed. Both of these options pose difficult problems. Relying solely on the records of multiple providers, for example, could require companies to alter their procedures in ways that raise new privacy concerns. On the other hand, any third party maintaining a single, consolidated data-base would be carrying out what is essentially a government function with more expense, more legal ambiguity, and a doubtful impact on public confidence that their privacy is being protected.

During the review process, some suggested that we may also be able to preserve the capabilities we need through a combination of existing authorities, better information sharing, and recent technological advances. But more work needs to be done to determine exactly how this system might work.

Because of the challenges involved, I’ve ordered that the transition away from the existing program will proceed in two steps. Effective immediately, we will only pursue phone calls that are two steps removed from a number associated with a terrorist organization instead of three. And I have directed the Attorney General to work with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court so that during this transition period, the database can be queried only after a judicial finding, or in a true emergency.

Next, I have instructed the intelligence community and Attorney General to use this transition period to develop options for a new approach that can match the capabilities and fill the gaps that the Section 215 program was designed to address without the government holding this meta-data. They will report back to me with options for alternative approaches before the program comes up for reauthorization on March 28. During this period, I will consult with the relevant committees in Congress to seek their views, and then seek congressional authorization for the new program as needed.

The reforms I’m proposing today should give the American people greater confidence that their rights are being protected, even as our intelligence and law enforcement agencies maintain the tools they need to keep us safe. I recognize that there are additional issues that require further debate. For example, some who participated in our review, as well as some in Congress, would like to see more sweeping reforms to the use of National Security Letters, so that we have to go to a judge before issuing these requests. Here, I have concerns that we should not set a standard for terrorism investigations that is higher than those involved in investigating an ordinary crime. But I agree that greater oversight on the use of these letters may be appropriate, and am prepared to work with Congress on this issue. There are also those who would like to see different changes to the FISA court than the ones I have proposed. On all of these issues, I am open to working with Congress to ensure that we build a broad consensus for how to move forward, and am confident that we can shape an approach that meets our security needs while upholding the civil liberties of every American.

Let me now turn to the separate set of concerns that have been raised overseas, and focus on America’s approach to intelligence collection abroad. As I’ve indicated, the United States has unique responsibilities when it comes to intelligence collection. Our capabilities help protect not only our own nation, but our friends and allies as well. Our efforts will only be effective if ordinary citizens in other countries have confidence that the United States respects their privacy too. And the leaders of our close friends and allies deserve to know that if I want to learn what they think about an issue, I will pick up the phone and call them, rather than turning to surveillance. In other words, just as we balance security and privacy at home, our global leadership demands that we balance our security requirements against our need to maintain trust and cooperation among people and leaders around the world.

For that reason, the new presidential directive that I have issued today will clearly prescribe what we do, and do not do, when it comes to our overseas surveillance. To begin with, the directive makes clear that the United States only uses signals intelligence for legitimate national security purposes, and not for the purpose of indiscriminately reviewing the emails or phone calls of ordinary people. I have also made it clear that the United States does not collect intelligence to suppress criticism or dissent, nor do we collect intelligence to disadvantage people on the basis of their ethnicity, race, gender, sexual orientation, or religious beliefs. And we do not collect intelligence to provide a competitive advantage to U.S. companies, or U.S. commercial sectors.

In terms of our bulk collection of signals intelligence, U.S. intelligence agencies will only use such data to meet specific security requirements: counter-intelligence; counter-terrorism; counter-proliferation; cyber-security; force protection for our troops and allies; and combating transnational crime, including sanctions evasion. Moreover, I have directed that we take the unprecedented step of extending certain protections that we have for the American people to people overseas. I have directed the DNI, in consultation with the Attorney General, to develop these safeguards, which will limit the duration that we can hold personal information, while also restricting the use of this information.

The bottom line is that people around the world - regardless of their nationality - should know that the United States is not spying on ordinary people who don’t threaten our national security, and that we take their privacy concerns into account. This applies to foreign leaders as well. Given the understandable attention that this issue has received, I have made clear to the intelligence community that - unless there is a compelling national security purpose - we will not monitor the communications of heads of state and government of our close friends and allies. And I’ve instructed my national security team, as well as the intelligence community, to work with foreign counterparts to deepen our coordination and cooperation in ways that rebuild trust going forward.

Now let me be clear: our intelligence agencies will continue to gather information about the intentions of governments - as opposed to ordinary citizens - around the world, in the same way that the intelligence services of every other nation does. We will not apologize simply because our services may be more effective. But heads of state and government with whom we work closely, and on whose cooperation we depend, should feel confident that we are treating them as real partners. The changes I’ve ordered do just that.

Finally, to make sure that we follow through on these reforms, I am making some important changes to how our government is organized. The State Department will designate a senior officer to coordinate our diplomacy on issues related to technology and signals intelligence. We will appoint a senior official at the White House to implement the new privacy safeguards that I have announced today. I will devote the resources to centralize and improve the process we use to handle foreign requests for legal assistance, keeping our high standards for privacy while helping foreign partners fight crime and terrorism.

I have also asked my Counselor, John Podesta, to lead a comprehensive review of big data and privacy. This group will consist of government officials who—along with the President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology—will reach out to privacy experts, technologists and business leaders, and look at how the challenges inherent in big data are being confronted by both the public and private sectors; whether we can forge international norms on how to manage this data; and how we can continue to promote the free flow of information in ways that are consistent with both privacy and security.

For ultimately, what’s at stake in this debate goes far beyond a few months of headlines, or passing tensions in our foreign policy. When you cut through the noise, what’s really at stake is how we remain true to who we are in a world that is remaking itself at dizzying speed. Whether it’s the ability of individuals to communicate ideas; to access information that would have once filled every great library in every country in the world; or to forge bonds with people on other sides of the globe, technology is remaking what is possible for individuals, for institutions, and for the international order. So while the reforms that I have announced will point us in a new direction, I am mindful that more work will be needed in the future.

One thing I’m certain of: this debate will make us stronger. And I also know that in this time of change, the United States of America will have to lead. It may seem sometimes that America is being held to a different standard, and the readiness of some to assume the worst motives by our government can be frustrating. No one expects China to have an open debate about their surveillance programs, or Russia to take the privacy concerns of citizens into account. But let us remember that we are held to a different standard precisely because we have been at the forefront in defending personal privacy and human dignity.

As the nation that developed the Internet, the world expects us to ensure that the digital revolution works as a tool for individual empowerment rather than government control. Having faced down the totalitarian dangers of fascism and communism, the world expects us to stand up for the principle that every person has the right to think and write and form relationships freely - because individual freedom is the wellspring of human progress.

Those values make us who we are. And because of the strength of our own democracy, we should not shy away from high expectations. For more than two centuries, our Constitution has weathered every type of change because we have been willing to defend it, and because we have been willing to question the actions that have been taken in its defense. Today is no different. Together, let us chart a way forward that secures the life of our nation, while preserving the liberties that make our nation worth fighting for. Thank you.

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180 comments
1 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:45:25am

Senator Dudebro (Ron, not Son of Ron):

2 Varek Raith  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:46:13am

re: #1 wrenchwench

Senator Dudebro (Ron, not Son of Ron):

[Embedded content]

But ok for private industry to do so.
Yeppers.

3 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:46:15am

Once again, the President actually lays out a plan and a course of action, (governing) and will be met by nothing more than objections and obstructionism, without concrete and legitimate counter-proposals. I’d like to bet I’m wrong, but I know nobody here will take my action on it.

RBS

4 Dr. Matt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:46:55am

re: #1 wrenchwench

It’s imperative to be vigilant- the normalization of bulk government collection of private data is NEVER okay when there is a Democratic President
— Ron Wyden (@RonWyden) January 17, 2014

Clarification

5 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:47:54am


Of course, Ann Coulter was disgusted by the President’s mention of intelligence gathering and thinks the US pissed away Iraq (let’s just ignore who and how we were in Iraq in the first place, shall we?)


And I say that as someone who supported the war in Iraq.

6 erik_t  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:48:27am

re: #4 Dr. Matt

Nah, Wyden is a True Believer. He’s nutty and wrong on this issue, but consistently so.

7 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:48:43am

re: #4 Dr. Matt

Clarification

Actually that’s unfair. Wyden felt the same way about the Republican president too.

8 GlutenFreeJesus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:49:58am

re: #1 wrenchwench

Senator Dudebro (Ron, not Son of Ron):

[Embedded content]

But it’s ok for Facebook and Twitter, right?

9 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:50:00am

re: #5 lawhawk

[Embedded content]


And I say that as someone who supported the war in Iraq.

pissed it away?

What does she think he should have done, especially given Bush was already working on getting out?

10 GlutenFreeJesus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:52:12am

re: #9 kirkspencer

pissed it away?

What does she think he should have done, especially given Bush was already working on getting out?

He should have been a white Republican that nuked the whole region.

11 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:52:32am

re: #8 GlutenFreeJesus

But it’s ok for Facebook and Twitter, right?

Google / Amazon / the other large data services know a HELL of a lot more about me than the NSA does on a day to day basis.

RBS

12 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:52:32am
13 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:52:56am

HEY DUMBASS, THEY HAVE JRRBS WORKING AT WALMART & MICKEY D!!

14 GlutenFreeJesus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:52:58am

re: #11 RealityBasedSteve

Google / Amazon / the other large data services know a HELL of a lot more about me than the NSA does on a day to day basis.

RBS

Yup… They are all the NSA’s wet dream.

15 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:54:11am

HURR HURR!!!11!!!1

16 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:54:57am

That Rand Paul Tweet wins DERP OF TEH DAY

17 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:55:00am

re: #9 kirkspencer

History and facts. How do they work?

Willful disregard for history and facts, miseducation of the rubes who lap up this nonsense as truth, and distort reality all for political purposes (or selling their schtick on Fox).

18 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:55:50am

re: #15 Pie-onist Overlord

I see that Rand Paul’s advisers have figured out that the knuckle-dragging right wing base loves simplistic, stupid graphics.

19 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:55:59am

HEY PAMELA THEY GOT THE IDEA FROM THAT TEA PARTY REPUBLICAN GUY.

20 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:57:44am

re: #19 Pie-onist Overlord

HEY PAMELA THEY GOT THE IDEA FROM THAT TEA PARTY REPUBLICAN GUY.

[Embedded content]

Ouch. BOOM!

21 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:58:35am

re: #19 Pie-onist Overlord

HEY PAMELA THEY GOT THE IDEA FROM THAT TEA PARTY REPUBLICAN GUY.

[Embedded content]

But she’s now wearing a nightie, just a flannel burka…

22 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 9:59:11am

Is Rep. Dick Black a seekrit Muslim?

23 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:01:26am

re: #11 RealityBasedSteve

Google / Amazon / the other large data services know a HELL of a lot more about me than the NSA does on a day to day basis.

RBS

According to some news reports last summer, NSA has contracted with Amazon for some cloud storage services. I commented here about it.

24 ericblair  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:01:58am

Obama points out that people in government service take laws and regulations seriously. I think everybody here who’s worked in a federal government environment, classified or unclassified, can attest to that. It’s the people who ignore laws and rules when it doesn’t suit them who figure that everybody else does the same thing too.

Information aggregation will always be an issue. If you know where one military shipment of beans is going it’s no big deal. If you know where every military shipment of supplies is going within a theater that is a big deal and quite sensitive, but there’s no sharp line somewhere between the two that says what’s sensitive and what’s not.

25 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:02:49am

Oh Jesus Christ. Go to the HuffPo front page now.

26 gwangung  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:03:47am

re: #24 ericblair

Obama points out that people in government service take laws and regulations seriously. I think everybody here who’s worked in a federal government environment, classified or unclassified, can attest to that. It’s the people who ignore laws and rules when it doesn’t suit them who figure that everybody else does the same thing too.

Information aggregation will always be an issue. If you know where one military shipment of beans is going it’s no big deal. If you know where every military shipment of supplies is going within a theater that is a big deal and quite sensitive, but there’s no sharp line somewhere between the two that says what’s sensitive and what’s not.

The genie isn’t going to go back into the bottle. And the government isn’t going to lag behind the capabilities of private industry.

Any new policy is going to HAVE to deal with both sets of facts (and they ARE facts).

27 blueraven  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:03:52am

re: #25 Gus

Oh Jesus Christ. Go to the HuffPo front page now.

You can’t make me!

28 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:04:28am
29 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:04:44am

re: #25 Gus

Oh Jesus Christ. Go to the HuffPo front page now.

Is HuffPo paying you to post clickbait?

30 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:06:29am
31 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:07:09am

That face is just begging you to slap it.

32 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:07:47am

re: #24 ericblair

Obama points out that people in government service take laws and regulations seriously. I think everybody here who’s worked in a federal government environment, classified or unclassified, can attest to that. It’s the people who ignore laws and rules when it doesn’t suit them who figure that everybody else does the same thing too.

Information aggregation will always be an issue. If you know where one military shipment of beans is going it’s no big deal. If you know where every military shipment of supplies is going within a theater that is a big deal and quite sensitive, but there’s no sharp line somewhere between the two that says what’s sensitive and what’s not.

It’s also how one small piece of information isn’t very valuable, but if somebody gets enough small pieces of info, from various sources, they can put together a very good perspective of the whole. In the military it was in interesting thing, various facts and documents that in themselves weren’t classified, or were at the very lowest levels possible, could suddenly acquire a higher classification when aggregated into a single doc.

I was taught to think of it as a tile mosaic. Just looking at one or two tiles didn’t show the picture, but enough tiles and you have the big picture.

My understanding around military posts, especially just off post, things like barbers, surplus and gear providers, sew-shops would probably be able to give a command level briefing on any major upcoming operation just based on business and random comments made.

RBS

33 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:07:50am

re: #29 Pie-onist Overlord

Is HuffPo paying you to post clickbait?

:P

34 Targetpractice  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:09:11am

re: #31 Pie-onist Overlord

That face is just begging you to slap it.

Just oozes smugness.

35 Dr. Matt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:09:32am

re: #31 Pie-onist Overlord

That face is just begging you to slap it.

x2

36 gwangung  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:09:41am

re: #32 RealityBasedSteve

It’s also how one small piece of information isn’t very valuable, but if somebody gets enough small pieces of info, from various sources, they can put together a very good perspective of the whole. In the military it was in interesting thing, various facts and documents that in themselves weren’t classified, or were at the very lowest levels possible, could suddenly acquire a higher classification when aggregated into a single doc.

I was taught to think of it as a tile mosaic. Just looking at one or two tiles didn’t show the picture, but enough tiles and you have the big picture.

My understanding around military posts, especially just off post, things like barbers, surplus and gear providers, sew-shops would probably be able to give a command level briefing on any major upcoming operation just based on business and random comments made.

RBS

Yeah, that’s why Snowden’s release of documents was so damaging to legitimate efforts and why I consider him more as a clumsy fool than a whistleblower.

37 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:12:16am

Glenn Greenwald’s new pal — S. E. Cupp.

38 Bulworth  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:14:03am

re: #25 Gus

VINDICATED!!!111!!!!

Obama’s reforms are a sham!!!111!!!!

39 Bulworth  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:14:51am

re: #37 Charles Johnson

Moar wingnut dudebro convergence derp. Make it stop.

40 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:15:31am
41 ericblair  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:16:10am

re: #36 gwangung

Yeah, that’s why Snowden’s release of documents was so damaging to legitimate efforts and why I consider him more as a clumsy fool than a whistleblower.

While Snowden says that he carefully vetted the information he released, besides being bullshit, he couldn’t have done that anyway. It would be very difficult to tell what sort of unimportant-looking detail the Russians or Chinese needed to know to figure out some US capability or operation. Then remember Snowden wasn’t a foreign intelligence analyst; he was a sysadmin with an SCI clearance who wouldn’t have had any grasp of what would be of interest to foreign intelligence since that wasn’t his job.

It wouldn’t have mattered anyway, since Greenwald seems to have the entire mass of data and will parcel it out bit by bit until he’s squeezed every nickel he can out of the process.

42 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:16:40am
43 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:16:48am

Once again, Snowden stole thousands (exactly how many is still up for debate) of documents. Some pertain to NSA operations that affect US citizens. But many others relate to foreign data collection, means, and methods.

The Snowden docs that shed light on the foreign operations have undermined US national security regardless of what Greenwald and Snowden say.

They’ve shed light on how, where, and what we’re able to do, and the kind of data we’re targeting. Anyone who’s read this information now has a better understanding of how to try and avoid surveillance by the NSA.

That includes countries like Russia and China and Iran, as well as terror groups like Hizbullah, al Qaeda, LeT and countless others that pose threats to US national security and interests.

If Snowden had limited the document dump to domestic programs and remained in the US to take his lumps with the justice system here, I might be more sympathetic to him.

But he ran. And ran to the very countries that would benefit from release of the details about foreign surveillance - which is the core mission of the NSA.

As it is, Snowden’s domestic documents also indicate that the US had a pretty good grasp of constitutional protections and a method of reining in the NSA from overreach.

Now, the President has addressed those concerns further than what the NSA and FISC had done to date.

Only Greenwald, Snowden and the rest of their dudebros think that the NSA doesn’t serve a legitimate purpose (hence the President’s history lesson about spycraft and surveillance). It’s what all governments do - and it’s sound and prudent to do so. Failing to do so would be far more criminal.

44 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:17:10am

HURR HURR!!!1!!!!!

45 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:17:18am

re: #40 Charles Johnson
He’s VINDICATED by a sham? How does that work?

[Embedded content]

It’s the Incredible Sham-Wow Vindication…. now only 19.95, operators standing by.

RBS

46 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:17:43am

re: #40 Charles Johnson

47 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:18:55am
48 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:21:25am
49 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:24:25am

Rush was actually trying to make the case that because the Boston bombing occurred, it proves the NSA doesn’t actually work.

50 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:24:59am
51 erik_t  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:25:06am

re: #47 Pie-onist Overlord

Edward Snowden’s fucks want to be freeeeeeeeee!

52 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:26:39am

Sirota will be discussing this at some media outlet later.

Pentagon & NSA officials say they want Snowden extrajudicially assassinated

It’s based on some anonymous quotes published at Buzzfeed.

The illustration is priceless worthless.

53 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:26:41am

re: #15 Pie-onist Overlord

Shouldn’t the 2nd amendment be blacked out of that too?

54 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:27:26am

re: #52 wrenchwench

Sirota will be discussing this at some media outlet later.

Pentagon & NSA officials say they want Snowden extrajudicially assassinated

It’s based on some anonymous quotes published at Buzzfeed.

The illustration is priceless worthless.

HURR HURR IT TEH JOURNALISMS!!!1!1!!!1!!!1

55 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:28:17am

re: #52 wrenchwench

I read that headline and instantly got a headache.

56 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:28:38am

[tinfoil hat] At least twice in recent weeks, my local weather tool thing has spontaneously changed locale to Severn, MD, which is apparently nearby NSA headquarters. I’ve found a clue as to why. [/tinfoil hat]

For some weeks now, my computer has been attempting (but failing) to download a file from dod.mil every time I launch Firefox. The filename was lps_quick_start.pdf and I now know the source was spi.dod.mil.

LPS is short for Lightweight Portable Security.
SPI is short for Software Protection Initiative.

It’s an extra-secure linux distro recommended (required?) for use by military and government personel, but it’s also generally available to anyone.

Earlier this month, I’d downloaded a couple ISOs for the LPS distro, and some associated docs. IIRC, one of the items of documentation that failed to download was lps_quick_start.pdf —apparently from spi.dod.mil.
But my browser was automatically re-trying that failed download. Sheesh.

57 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:28:38am
58 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:28:51am

re: #49 Kragar

Rush was actually trying to make the case that because the Boston bombing occurred, it proves the NSA doesn’t actually work.

So if Rush is stopped coming across the border with an unlabeled bottle of Viagra, that means?????

RBS

59 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:29:55am

re: #31 Pie-onist Overlord

That face is just begging you to slap it.

Backpfeifengesicht

60 Internet Tough Guy  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:30:55am

re: #31 Pie-onist Overlord

Obviously, that makes you a sociopath.

/GG

61 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:31:58am
62 Single-handed sailor  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:32:09am

re: #5 lawhawk

I don’t doubt Ann thinks The Glorious Fatherland should have occupied Iraq until the end of time.

63 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:32:10am

People actually read Buzzfeed for something other than stupid animated GIFs and endless variations on even stupider listicles?

64 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:32:14am

re: #55 Charles Johnson

I read that headline and instantly got a headache.

The illustration did it for me.

65 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:33:44am

re: #60 Internet Tough Guy

Obviously, that makes you a drooling sociopath.

/GG

Finished that for you.

66 erik_t  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:33:52am

re: #63 Charles Johnson

People actually read Buzzfeed for something other than stupid animated GIFs and endless variations on even stupider listicles?

Buzzfeed has attempted to pivot towards covering millenial-flavor politics. I swear to Christ.

67 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:34:24am

re: #63 Charles Johnson

People actually read Buzzfeed for something other than stupid animated GIFs and endless variations on even stupider listicles?

Going to Buzzfeed for news is like going to 4-Chan for science

68 blueraven  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:34:30am

re: #52 wrenchwench

Sirota will be discussing this at some media outlet later.

Pentagon & NSA officials say they want Snowden extrajudicially assassinated

It’s based on some anonymous quotes published at Buzzfeed.

The illustration is priceless worthless.

Pando…dudebro’s answer to World Nut Daily.

69 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:34:56am

re: #61 Kragar

This movie is based on a book that’s THIRTY FIVE YEARS old, not exactly a fancy new thing, Bryan.

70 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:34:58am
71 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:35:57am

Imagine the soul-numbing editorial meetings that discuss the 20 listicles Buzzfeed will publish each day.

72 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:36:05am

re: #69 Eclectic Cyborg

This movie is based on a book that’s THIRTY FIVE YEARS old, not exactly a fancy new thing, Bryan.

And its treated as horrifying in both the book and the movie.

73 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:36:16am

re: #49 Kragar

Following that to its logical conclusion could lead his listeners rapidly to real existential panic. If any system that isn’t 100% flawless is therefore considered to be completely useless and broken, then there goes pretty much the entirety of human civilization. Permanently.

74 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:36:43am

re: #61 Kragar
Will polygamy, pedophilia or incest be next domino to fall? Lifetime airs movie featuring incest

[Embedded content]

Yea, because that whole thing with Lot’s daughters getting him drunk and then sleeping with him (Gen 19:36) must never have happened. Among other instances.

RBS

75 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:36:56am

Also, the general explanation as to why incest was acceptable during the time of Adam and Eve was that there just weren’t that many people around so the gene pool was pure and the odds of troubles from inbreeding were practically non existent.

No, I am not making this up.

76 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:37:01am

re: #67 Kragar

Going to Buzzfeed for news is like going to 4-Chan for science

Or Huffington Post for medical news. :D

77 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:37:35am

re: #71 Charles Johnson

Imagine the soul-numbing editorial meetings that discuss the 20 listicles Buzzfeed will publish each day.

Monkeys with typewriters come to mind.

78 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:37:42am

re: #73 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

Following that to its logical conclusion could lead his listeners rapidly to real existential panic. If any system that isn’t 100% flawless is therefore considered to be completely useless and broken, then there goes pretty much the entirety of human civilization. Permanently.

Rush did admit to the outside possibility that perhaps the data might have possibly been used to foil attacks we know nothing about, but that could be disregarded because one attack succeeded.

79 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:38:08am

re: #63 Charles Johnson

People actually read Buzzfeed for something other than stupid animated GIFs and endless variations on even stupider listicles?

Sure, you might get a scoop or two from the NYT, but if you want to know what’s really going on, you’ve got to check the Hot Sheets. /Agent Kay

80 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:38:57am

Think of the NSA as our security condom. It’s not 100% guaranteed to be effective EVERY SINGLE TIME, but it is effective the vast majority of it.

81 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:40:21am

re: #79 lawhawk

Sure, you might get a scoop or two from the NYT, but if you want to know what’s really going on, you’ve got to check the Hot Sheets. /Agent Kay

If they remade that movie, K would be checking Breitbart.com and Drudge Report

82 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:40:30am

re: #78 Kragar

Rush did admit to the outside possibility that perhaps the data might have possibly been used to foil attacks we know nothing about, but that could be disregarded because one attack succeeded.

Gee, possibly because an intelligence service that does it’s job correctly excels at NOT drawing attention to itself? Not that Rush would know about self-promotion.

RBS

83 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:43:29am

I’d be interesting if we could run a simulation to see what would happen to this country if the NSA was completely abolished.

84 Ian G.  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:43:42am

re: #61 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Hey, incest was never a problem when Christianity was “working” (by Bryan’s definition) in medieval and renaissance Europe. Just check out the gruesome details of the life of Spain’s King Charles II for more on that.

I wonder why Bryan has a problem with it now?

85 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:44:46am

re: #84 Ian G.

Hey, incest was never a problem when Christianity was “working” (by Bryan’s definition) in medieval and renaissance Europe. Just check out the gruesome details of the life of Spain’s King Charles II for more on that.

I wonder why Bryan has a problem with it now?

I don’t know, maybe his cousin is ugly?

RBS

86 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:45:02am

Intel agencies are notable mostly when they fail. They are defined and cast based upon their failures (and the following is by no means exhaustive).

The failure to identify threats.

The failure to pass along information that might have made a difference in a time of need.

The failure of an intel operation (agents revealed, plot disrupted, etc.).

The NSA was tasked with going after certain kinds of intel in the hopes of preventing a failure along the lines of 9/11. It was also tasked with trying to keep tabs on other known threats.

Now, that task may be narrowed further. That could mean that the data that isn’t collected may be the piece of information needed to break a plot or it means that now that certain data is no longer tracked, more focus is placed on what we’re still getting, and a plot is disrupted that might otherwise have slipped through because of the overwhelming noise-signal ratio.

But foreign sources are also watching and looking at what’s going on and doing what they have to in order to avoid detection.

87 Bulworth  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:46:32am

re: #13 Pie-onist Overlord

Murica won’t be FReedom until all the undeserving are kicked off food stamps. I love Amercia better tha you do not.

88 ericblair  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:46:56am

re: #56 abolitionist

[tinfoil hat] At least twice in recent weeks, my local weather tool thing has spontaneously changed locale to Severn, MD, which is apparently nearby NSA headquarters. I’ve found a clue as to why. [/tinfoil hat]

Do you have Comcast? That’s one of their POPs, and the weather tool was using your IP address to guess your location. If not, I dunno, maybe another ISP has a gateway there as well.

89 Bulworth  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:47:26am

re: #5 lawhawk

I don’t appreciate Coulter’s criticism of former president George W. Bush.

90 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:49:33am

re: #75 Eclectic Cyborg

Also, the general explanation as to why incest was acceptable during the time of Adam and Eve was that there just weren’t that many people around so the gene pool was pure and the odds of troubles from inbreeding were practically non existent.

No, I am not making this up.

But if evolution doesn’t happen, how did those “bad” gene combinations get into the pool?
//

91 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:50:32am

Well, at least we know who in the MSM considers Snowden a hero. The problem is, they neglect to mention he committed felonies while “impacting” intelligence gathering.


So, I’m giving all of them a virtual slap across the face with my glove…

92 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:50:42am

re: #82 RealityBasedSteve

Gee, possibly because an intelligence service that does it’s job correctly excels at NOT drawing attention to itself? Not that Rush would know about self-promotion.

RBS

Better off hiring Keyser Soze than Rush for that.

93 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:51:48am

re: #83 Eclectic Cyborg

I’d be interesting if we could run a simulation to see what would happen to this country if the NSA was completely abolished.

I wish we had something like that so that we could also model the run-on effects of all the various GOP policies that they would like to implement.

94 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:54:58am
95 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:55:17am

I must say, I’m surprised to see public opinion shifting more favorably to Snowden.

I expected people to get more fed up with him as time went on.

96 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:55:20am

re: #88 ericblair

Do you have Comcast? That’s one of their POPs, and the weather tool was using your IP address to guess your location. If not, I dunno, maybe another ISP has a gateway there as well.

I’ve had Verizon for several years, their FIOS for last 3. The weather gadget is the one provided with Vista. There’s a default locale, but it’s required to be manually tweeked to whatever locale one has an interest in.

97 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:55:31am
98 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:55:59am
99 erik_t  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:56:15am

re: #95 Eclectic Cyborg

I must say, I’m surprised to see public opinion shifting more favorably to Snowden.

I expected people to get more fed up with him as time went on.

According to polling, it’s not really shifting at all.

100 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:56:57am

GG’s buddy weighs in…


The convergence—same as it ever was.

101 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:59:17am
102 Bulworth  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 10:59:54am
Congress must do what Pres Obama apparently will not.

But Congress won’t do anything. Hasn’t done anything about anything for a long time now.

103 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:00:52am

re: #101 Kragar

[Embedded content]

That’s called “talking out of your ass.” FN, famous for it. In fact, it’s a requirement to get on FN that you do so continuously.

104 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:06:55am
105 kirkspencer  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:08:23am

re: #103 Justanotherhuman

That’s called “talking out of your ass.” FN, famous for it. In fact, it’s a requirement to get on FN that you do so continuously.

To paraphrase from a comic I read regularly: news with fans is entertainment, not news.

(Least I Could Do has many NSFW episodes. Caveat emptor.)

106 darthstar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:09:07am
107 darthstar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:09:34am

What the fucking fuck is Sirota’s problem?

108 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:11:38am

re: #107 darthstar

What the fucking fuck is Sirota’s problem?

Wannabe.

109 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:13:16am

re: #107 darthstar

What the fucking fuck is Sirota’s problem?

I swear he is secretly on Greenwald’s payroll.

110 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:13:37am

re: #106 darthstar

[Embedded content]

WTF? Look at that image.

111 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:14:17am

More GG bullshit. There are almost 7B people on earth. And Mr. Hyperbole thinks the NSA can actually “monitor” even “hundreds of millions”? Does he even know the meaning of “monitor”? They know what they’re looking for, you twit, and it’s not your dialing-for-dollars calls.

112 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:14:45am

re: #106 darthstar

[Embedded content]

And exactly WHAT KIND of intelligence operatives would even say something like that? GMAFB!!!

RBS

113 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:16:54am

re: #112 RealityBasedSteve

And exactly WHAT KIND of intelligence operatives would even say something like that? GMAFB!!!

RBS

Intelligence operatives that aren’t actual intelligence operatives. They only call themselves that because they are good at using Google.

114 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:18:45am

re: #111 Justanotherhuman

More GG bullshit. There are almost 7B people on earth. And Mr. Hyperbole thinks the NSA can actually “monitor” even “hundreds of millions”? Does he even know the meaning of “monitor”? They know what they’re looking for, you twit, and it’s not your dialing-for-dollars calls.

[Embedded content]

Hyperbole watch. He wants people to think that the US government is watching them. Not distinguishing between US citizens (for who warrants are required) and those that the NSA would actually want to watch out for.

Let’s also ignore that military forces around the world are on the NSA radar - that involves millions of people and interactions on a daily basis.

And the NSA mandate is to watch out for threats to the US from foreign sources. So, he’s trying to conflate all kinds of issues along with an unhealthy dose of paranoia.

115 Mike Lamb  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:21:59am

re: #2 Varek Raith

But ok for private industry to do so.
Yeppers.

Look, there clearly is a difference between private parties having certain information versus the gov’t having the same information. What the fact that this information is being voluntarily distributed to private entities means, though, is that the reasonable expectation of privacy gets blown out of the water and the collection of that information may not, in fact, require a warrant. This is the issue that is ignored in the screaming that the meta-data collection violates the 4th amendment.

116 jaunte  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:22:15am

re: #106 darthstar

Sirota totally hoping his name is discovered on a secret White House enemies list.

117 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:22:23am
118 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:22:39am

There sure is a whole lot of stupid going on in all of the media today, I just turned off MSNBC and have some YouTube tunes going. The level of denseness is just too much.

I do hope, like I posted in the last thread, there is an education drive done by the government to teach at least the media what meta data is.

Hell, I’m beginning to think they think the word is MEGA DATA…you whole life is out there and the government knows it and stores it! Be vwarery awayre (Fudd Speak)…they will use it against you at tax time, in court out on the street. WE ARE NOT SAFE!!! Aiyeeeeeeee!!!!11!1!!!

And then Gus posted that HuffPro page…and I about blew lunch!

Lord help this country, we are growing dumber by the hour minute second, and everyone is out to get their word in to prove it!

119 darthstar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:22:56am

By the way, I listened to Obama’s speech on my way to work this morning. Thought he was very clear about wanting to ensure Americans that proper oversight was being implemented, and also clear that the program will continue much as it has.

And then he finished, and MSNBC started off with fucktard of fucktards, Chuck Todd. Todd was obviously too busy to actually listen to the President, because he literally “blah blah blahed” when talking about the President’s speech as he hypothesized about how it probably wouldn’t help Obama politically. What the fuck is up with that? And on the other side of the conversation, guest #2 was Chris Hayes, who is a major Greenwald dudebro. He at least demonstrated some comprehension and pointed to specific words the President used, before pissing all over them with suspicion. Next guest was Rep. Keith Ellison, who is against the NSA programs. And finally a commericial break with the lede, “And when we come back, we’ll have someone who disagrees strongly with the President.” WHAT THE FUCK WERE THE OTHER THREE ASSHOLES DOING?

As you can see, I’m still a little miffed at that whole thing.

120 klys  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:23:02am

One of the coolest classes I took in undergrad was on the history of the intelligence community, taught by the historian for the NSA.

Absolutely fascinating, and you were definitely left with the impression that these were people who took their jobs - and the responsibility that came with it - very seriously.

121 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:23:21am

re: #114 lawhawk

Hyperbole watch. He wants people to think that the US government is watching them. Not distinguishing between US citizens (for who warrants are required) and those that the NSA would actually want to watch out for.

Let’s also ignore that military forces around the world are on the NSA radar - that involves millions of people and interactions on a daily basis.

And the NSA mandate is to watch out for threats to the US from foreign sources. So, he’s trying to conflate all kinds of issues along with an unhealthy dose of paranoia.

Guess who agrees with GG? Grover Norquist. The entire RW more than likely.

122 Ian G.  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:24:25am

re: #101 Kragar

Two wingnut misunderstandings about the American Revolution really bug me, if only because without these misunderstandings, 95% of their non-Hitler rhetoric would be gone.

1: We did not revolt because we were asked to pay taxes. We revolted because we had no representation in Parliament.

2: Great Britain was not a “tyrannical” government, certainly not by the standards of the 18th century. I mean, what kind of fucking tyranny has a functional Parliament in the first place?

Basically, we did as pretty much every colonial people does to its imperial masters. The only difference is that wingnuts celebrate how we did it, while dismissing any dark-skinned people who did it in the 1950s or 1960s as “communists”.

The end.

123 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:25:15am

That’s fucked up.

124 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:25:33am

re: #114 lawhawk

IMHO, 51 percent probability of foreignness in some poorly-defined context is a big middle finger to the Constitution.

125 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:25:47am

re: #52 wrenchwench

Sirota will be discussing this at some media outlet later.

Pentagon & NSA officials say they want Snowden extrajudicially assassinated

It’s based on some anonymous quotes published at Buzzfeed.

The illustration is priceless worthless.

Well then, best he stay in Russia. Wouldn’t want to make it easy for them.

126 GunstarGreen  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:26:17am

re: #9 kirkspencer

pissed it away?

What does she think he should have done, especially given Bush was already working on getting out?

Something about killing their leaders and force-converting them to christianity, going by one of her books.

127 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:27:14am

re: #101 Kragar

WATCH: Fox News Host Says Americans Don’t Know Their History, Then Makes Up Some American History[Embedded content]

I love the quote…
Early-American history experts were generally puzzled over what Tantaros was talking about…” PolitiFact said in its attempt to fact check Tantaros’ statement.

Yea, it’s tough to fact check something that just doesn’t exist. I also understand that they were generally puzzled by the claim that Paul Revere’s horse could fly and shoot lasers from it’s eyes.

I swear, she looks exactly like a girl I once knew who would occasionally spout off the most insane, free association thing that would pop into her brain and then look like she had just given us the keys to the universe. Same “I have no idea what I’m doing on this planet” look in her eyes.

RBS

128 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:29:15am

WHAMMY!

129 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:32:02am
130 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:32:32am
131 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:33:13am
132 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:33:19am

I hope Snowden doesn’t die anytime soon. The LAST thing I want to see is for him to become a martyr.

133 klys  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:33:36am

re: #124 abolitionist

IMHO, 51 percent probability of foreignness in some poorly-defined context is a big middle finger to the Constitution.

Good thing that decision is made only once in the entire process and never re-evaluated based on subsequent information.

///

134 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:35:12am

Greenwald starts out with a lie. He didn’t set foot in any part of the UK. Or even the NY office of TG.


And quotes the ACLU’s Romero, who has to be one of the most naive (and hyperbolic himself) lawyers in the world.

“As the ACLU’s executive director Anthony Romero said after the speech:

The president should end - not mend - the government’s collection and retention of all law-abiding Americans’ data. When the government collects and stores every American’s phone call data, it is engaging in a textbook example of an ‘unreasonable search’ that violates the constitution.”

Just how do you determine who exactly is a “law-abiding” American, Mr. Romero?

135 Gus  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:35:46am
136 jaunte  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:36:22am
137 ericblair  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:37:04am

re: #122 Ian G.

1: We did not revolt because we were asked to pay taxes. We revolted because we had no representation in Parliament.

I guess if we want to be flip about it, we revolted because of a corporate tax cut. Which made it less profitable to smuggle stuff, but anyway.

138 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:37:06am

Doesn’t Sirota have better things to do than post on twitter all day?

139 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:39:16am

re: #138 Eclectic Cyborg

Doesn’t Sirota have better things to do than post on twitter all day?

Well, obviously he doesn’t work that hard at writing. All that free time to fill.

140 Mike Lamb  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:40:39am

By the way, the reaction to this speech illustrates perfectly why we don’t often see politicians make significant policy shifts on hot button issues.

Let’s just stipulate for a moment that Snowden did, in fact, “start the conversation” and that GG’s efforts added further pressure on the administration to enact changes in domestic intelligence gathering (which was then joined by other voices to add more pressure). GG, et al. should be thrilled that Obama made this speech and is trying to effect change even if they believe that the reforms don’t go far enough. The response should be “We welcome Obama’s proposals, but would like the opportunity to have further discussions, as we don’t believe these changes address all of the relevant concerns.” (The further caveat to the foregoing paragraph is that GG, et al are operating in good faith).

Instead, what we see is mocking, ridicule and scorn which is epitomized by GG joining forces with people whose political view overlap only on this one very narrow issue for basically the sole purpose of ridiculing Obama. There’s simply no upside for politicians to make wholesale changes. Obviously, we’d prefer that politicians make policy choices based on what’s right rather than on electoral or personal gain. This is, however, reality, and activists that are legitimately interested in change should learn that it can’t be antagonism 24/7. But I guess I’m the one being naive now…

141 jaunte  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:42:20am

Texas is not finished turning out idiot political busybodies:

Dan Patrick: “I am not shocked that Mayor Parker decided to elope to California for a marriage that is unconstitutional in Texas. This is obviously part of a larger strategy of hers to turn Texas into California.”

142 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:42:35am
143 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:43:02am
144 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:43:05am

HURR HURR

145 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:43:31am

re: #141 jaunte

The Mayor’s personal life is none of his damn business.

146 jaunte  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:44:25am

re: #145 Eclectic Cyborg

I wouldn’t mind Houston having some more of that California climate.

147 klys  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:44:39am

re: #143 Charles Johnson

Pretty clear his Photoshop skills are on par with his writing skills.

148 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:45:09am

re: #146 jaunte

I wouldn’t mind Houston having some more of that California climate.

Hey why not? They already have the drought.

149 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:46:27am

re: #138 Eclectic Cyborg

Doesn’t Sirota have better things to do than post on twitter all day?

When you’re a writer/activist, posting on twitter is the self-promotion that keeps the clicks coming. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

150 jaunte  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:47:28am

Obama Skeet Shooting Photo
knowyourmeme.com

151 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:48:34am

re: #119 darthstar

By the way, I listened to Obama’s speech on my way to work this morning. Thought he was very clear about wanting to ensure Americans that proper oversight was being implemented, and also clear that the program will continue much as it has.

And then he finished, and MSNBC started off with fucktard of fucktards, Chuck Todd. Todd was obviously too busy to actually listen to the President, because he literally “blah blah blahed” when talking about the President’s speech as he hypothesized about how it probably wouldn’t help Obama politically. What the fuck is up with that? And on the other side of the conversation, guest #2 was Chris Hayes, who is a major Greenwald dudebro. He at least demonstrated some comprehension and pointed to specific words the President used, before pissing all over them with suspicion. Next guest was Rep. Keith Ellison, who is against the NSA programs. And finally a commericial break with the lede, “And when we come back, we’ll have someone who disagrees strongly with the President.” WHAT THE FUCK WERE THE OTHER THREE ASSHOLES DOING?

As you can see, I’m still a little miffed at that whole thing.

Me too! I just fired off an email to MSNBC expressing my feelings for how stupid they and many of their guests are looking today. In closing I told them I work on some internet stores and I collect meta data, and who knows, I might be back-tracking the email and spying on them when they open it! I have to add humor to keep from going off on them, which I try never to do. Hold be back lord!

152 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:51:17am

I should start up a RW themed blog and see how much attention/money I can draw using no promotional tool other than twitter.

153 Bulworth  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:52:28am
Todd was obviously too busy to actually listen to the President, because he literally “blah blah blahed” when talking about the President’s speech as he hypothesized about how it probably wouldn’t help Obama politically.

Chuck only knows political partisan horse racing. Any “content”, “substance” or “policy” like stuff is just noise for his only concern.

154 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:52:35am

re: #142 Kragar

Just in: Freedom Industries, which owns the facility where WV chemical leak contaminated water for 300,000+ people, files for bankruptcy.
2:40 PM - 17 Jan 2014

Well that is (conveniently) timely.

155 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:54:10am

re: #147 klys

Pretty clear his Photoshop skills are on par with his writing skills.

And yet the twit tweets. Doesn’t he know the government is storing all that meta data!

156 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:54:13am
157 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:54:18am

re: #154 ObserverArt

Well that is (conveniently) timely.

They trying to avoid a lawsuit by doing this?

158 erik_t  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:54:27am

re: #154 ObserverArt

Well that is (conveniently) timely.

Corporations are people too, my friend.

It’s just that sometimes you have to shoot them in the back of the head and dump the body in a ditch to save your own skin.

159 Lidane  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:54:40am
160 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:55:27am

re: #159 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Just when I thought the attacks on the President couldn’t get any dumber.

161 klys  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:55:50am

re: #155 ObserverArt

And yet the twit tweets. Doesn’t he know the government is storing all that meta data!

Principles don’t matter when there’s $$$$ to be made.

162 Bulworth  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:55:58am

re: #127 RealityBasedSteve

Yeah but did they talk to American history expert David Barton? //

163 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:57:29am

Well, this ought to be interesting.

U.S. Supreme Court to weigh cell phone searches by police

chicagotribune.com,0,2480154.story

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court agreed on Friday to decide whether police can search an arrested criminal suspect’s cell phone without a warrant in two cases that showcase how the courts are wrestling to keep up with rapid technological advances.

“Taking up a pair of cases arising from criminal prosecutions that used evidence obtained without a warrant, the high court will wade into how to apply older court precedent, which allows police to search items carried by a defendant at the time of arrest, to cell phones. Many cell phones now contain a mass of personal information about the owner.”

164 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 11:59:12am

re: #157 Eclectic Cyborg

They trying to avoid a lawsuit by doing this?

I am not a lawyer, but I would think that is some of the thinking to go along with the phrase “You can’t make a turnip bleed!”

So folks in West VA…save those suits, there is no money for po’ po’ miserable you…coming out of the unfortunate us.

(Quick, run to the bank and deposit this is this other account…now!)

165 Eclectic Cyborg  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:00:08pm

re: #164 ObserverArt

I am not a lawyer, but I would think that is some of the thinking to go along with the phrase “You can’t make a turnip bleed!”

So folks in West VA…save those suits, there is no money for po’ po’ miserable you…coming out of the unfortunate us.

(Quick, run to the bank and deposit this is this other account…now!)

I really hope it’s not that easy but I suspect it is,

166 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:00:36pm

Sorry to be late to the party but I was out on the road. As a guy that has posted a few Pages critical of the NSA I just want to say I see a LOT to like in the speech. Particularly about Nat’l Security letters. But much more too.

167 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:00:47pm

re: #164 ObserverArt

Why are my tax dollars going to WV? Don’t they have a charity they can turn to? Serves them right for living in WV.

//////

168 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:04:12pm
169 allegro  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:07:09pm

re: #145 Eclectic Cyborg

The Mayor’s personal life is none of his damn business.

I’ve known Kathy and Annise on a personal/social level for many years - in fact since they first met and started dating. They are two of the most deserving of people of this happiness after 23 years of devotion to each other and their family. They didn’t make any spectacle at all out of their wedding - it was small, quiet, and quite secret in its planning and execution. GOP assholes here in Houston are, of course, making it political with the claims that Annise only did it so Kathy could have the fabulous benefits as a spouse of a city employee - something that Annise put into effect recently after the IRS precedent of recognizing same-sex marriages regardless of where they live. Really idiotic since Kathy has been a VERY successful self-employed CPA for decades and is probably a multi-millionaire entirely on her own (I don’t know nor have I ever asked about her financial status but I do know of her corporate clientele). I was so thrilled to hear the news last night of their marriage and wish them only the greatest of continuing happiness together!

170 Kragar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:08:05pm

re: #169 allegro

Texas, last bastion of freedom and liberty, as long as you are a white Christian Fundamentalist male gun owner.

171 Dr. Matt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:12:07pm

172 RealityBasedSteve  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:13:39pm

re: #158 erik_t

Corporations are people too, my friend.

It’s just that sometimes you have to shoot them in the back of the head and dump the body in a ditch to save your own skin.

Hey Freedom Industries, just wanted to let you know, nothing personal, but business is business. Bang.

RBS

173 Lidane  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:15:25pm
174 Justanotherhuman  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:17:06pm

All right, everybody, cough it up…

175 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:24:05pm

re: #169 allegro

The sad/happy thing about gay marriages popping out all over is seeing how many couples are old. Happy, because finally. Sad because they’ve been made to wait for no good reason. And so many are still waiting.

They should have gone to New Mexico, though. At least we’re neighbors!

176 b_sharp  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:27:31pm

re: #166 Political Atheist

Sorry to be late to the party but I was out on the road. As a guy that has posted a few Pages critical of the NSA I just want to say I see a LOT to like in the speech. Particularly about Nat’l Security letters. But much more too.

Yah, but your head is on straight,… mostly.

177 ObserverArt  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:35:14pm

re: #175 wrenchwench

The sad/happy thing about gay marriages popping out all over is seeing how many couples are old. Happy, because finally. Sad because they’ve been made to wait for no good reason. And so many are still waiting.

They should have gone to New Mexico, though. At least we’re neighbors!

Sure would be interesting to see a stat that would study the length of some of their relationships while basically in hiding while a whole lot of “breeder” Hetro couples have publicly declared a marriage that may not have lasted a few years. Your comment really points that out and I agree many of the new gay marriages do seem to be amongst those that have had long relationships.

Put it in Bryan F’n Fischer’s pipe and let him smoke it, and blow his little mind.

178 Lidane  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:36:43pm

On what bizarro world is Huckabee a huge progressive and a librul?

179 EPR-radar  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:38:52pm

re: #178 Lidane

On what bizarro world is Huckabee a huge progressive and a librul?

[Embedded content]

Huckabee is impure on taxes and spending, and is therefore a communist according to some elements of the RW purity police.

180 Pie-onist Overlord  Fri, Jan 17, 2014 12:46:42pm

re: #142 Kragar

Just in: Freedom Industries, which owns the facility where WV chemical leak contaminated water for 300,000+ people, files for bankruptcy.

Fuck them hard. I hope they all end up working at Walmart.


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