Supreme Court Says Democracy Is for Sale to the Highest Bidder

For sale: one (1) political system, slightly used, not cheap
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Another awful Supreme Court decision today extends the Citizens United disaster and further erodes America’s political system by striking down aggregate limits on campaign contributions; according to the new ruling, wealthy individuals may now contribute as much as $3.6 million to a single politician.

The decision — written by Chief Justice John Roberts and joined by Justices Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy and Samuel Alito — held that “aggregate limits are invalid under the First Amendment.” Justice Clarence Thomas concurred with the other conservative justices but penned a separate opinion arguing that campaign finance restrictions should be wiped out further.

The conservative justices argued that eliminating aggregate cont limits doesn’t give rise to “quid pro quo corruption” which the court recognized as a legitimate rationale for campaign finance restrictions in the landmark Buckley v. Valeo case in 1976.

“Spending large sums of money in connection with elections, but not in connection with an effort to control the exercise of an officeholder’s official duties, does not give rise to such quid pro quo corruption,” Roberts wrote in the ruling. “Nor does the possibility that an individual who spends large sums may garner ‘influence over or access to’ elected officials or political parties.”

The law currently permits individuals to spend no more than $2,600 per election per candidate, allowing for up to $5,200 for a primary and general election. The aggregate limit is $48,600 on contribution to candidates for an election cycle, and $74,600 on campaign committees. The Supreme Court ruling keeps the individual limits and eliminates the aggregate limits. Supporters of the law noted that without limits, a single donor could contribute as much as $3.6 million to a single politician between giving to candidates and committees.

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541 comments
1 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 10:06:15am

How many PACs can you create before the election cycle starts?

This is nothing less than a money laundering scheme for the richest people in the country to buy candidates.

2 Archangelus  Apr 2, 2014 10:06:24am

Can’t find any word more appropriate than a giganormous, industrial-sized ‘Oy’…

3 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 10:08:27am
“Spending large sums of money in connection with elections, but not in connection with an effort to control the exercise of an officeholder’s official duties, does not give rise to such quid pro quo corruption,” Roberts wrote in the ruling. “Nor does the possibility that an individual who spends large sums may garner ‘influence over or access to’ elected officials or political parties.”

This might be the most bullshit ever uttered by a Supreme Court Justice.

4 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 10:08:54am

From downstairs:

Holy cow, Roberts calls what everybody else considers corruption to be “gratitude” and then goes on to cite himself in his own opinion.

I knew he was shameless (see the Commerce Clause stuff he pulled out his ass during the ACA debate), but wow.

Legalized corruption.

5 Skip Intro  Apr 2, 2014 10:09:17am

Already someone is preparing a case to challenge the obviously unconstitutional limit of $3.6 million, and when it reaches this court they’ll agree.

Any doubts left over how the Hobby Lobby case is going to turn out?

6 Eventual Carrion  Apr 2, 2014 10:10:27am

So does making corruption/bribery legal make it not corruption/bribery anymore? We need a new word for it when corruption/bribery becomes legal.

EDIT: I see “gratitude” used. Kinda like paying a prostitute.

7 Mattand  Apr 2, 2014 10:10:35am

re: #3 Kragar

This might be the most bullshit ever uttered by a Supreme Court Justice.

Jesus Christ, did he actually say that?

Worse, does he really believe that if someone individually donates to a single candidate, the donor won’t expect something in return?

Un-fucking-real…

8 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 10:10:45am

I guess this is what happens when a party decides the Constitution is just a loophole to be exploited.

9 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 10:11:31am

re: #7 Mattand

Jesus Christ, did he actually say that?

Worse, does he really believe that if someone individually donates to a single candidate, the donor won’t expect something in return?

Un-fucking-real…

“Gratitude”

Image: RkIiEtw.jpg

10 Bulworth  Apr 2, 2014 10:11:51am

re: #3 Kragar

yeah, someone giving lots of money to a candidate doesn’t have any influence over that candidate’s decisionmaking in office. And the large donor is in no way trying to gain influence or access to decisionmaking by spending big dollars on an election.

//

11 lawhawk  Apr 2, 2014 10:13:26am

If you were to do away with the PAC/superPAC as an aggregator of money for candidates, while requiring all persons and entities to reveal themselves when donating, this decision might make sense.

But we aren’t in that situation. We’ve got GOPers looking to make PAC/superPACs even more opaque and preventing the IRS from doing its job of administering the nonprofit status of entities that engage in political activities.

Add to that this decision, and you’ve set up a free-for-all for money going into campaigns. Candidate with the most deep pockets backing them will invariably win.

Thomas would go a step further, and overturn Buckley, which is the seminal case in the area. Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Kennedy wouldn’t go that far. But they’re inching in that direction.

The practical effect of this is that corruption cases just got a whole lot harder.

12 Skip Intro  Apr 2, 2014 10:14:08am
“Spending large sums of money in connection with elections, but not in connection with an effort to control the exercise of an officeholder’s official duties, does not give rise to such quid pro quo corruption,” Roberts wrote in the ruling. “Nor does the possibility that an individual who spends large sums may garner ‘influence over or access to’ elected officials or political parties.”

If Roberts actually believes this, he’s too stupid to be in a position of power.

However, I don’t think he believes it for a minute. He just doesn’t give a shit.

13 TedStriker  Apr 2, 2014 10:15:52am

Citizens United made it clear that money to political candidates is free speech.

This decision made it even more clear that (nearly) unlimited money to candidates is unfettered free speech.

I hate to be all “woe is me” about this, but we plebes are fucked; with Citizens United on the books, it was already getting harder for individuals of more modest means and smaller groups to get politicians’ attention with their donations, but now it’ll be damn near impossible.

Compared to the largest donors, such as the Kochs and Sheldon Adelson, most everyone else’s contributions will be a fart in the wind.

14 Archangelus  Apr 2, 2014 10:16:20am

Changed my mind, no words needed :

Appropriate decision reaction

15 Mike Lamb  Apr 2, 2014 10:16:26am

re: #3 Kragar

This might be the most bullshit ever uttered by a Supreme Court Justice.

Agreed. I had to review it twice to make sure I read it correctly.

16 Dr Lizardo  Apr 2, 2014 10:16:35am

Jello Biafra had it right all those years ago.

Also, (we should) create a Board of Bribery to set standard public rates for liquor licenses, building code exemptions, police protection, and protection from the police. That caused the most trouble.

- part of Jello Biafra’s campaign platform in his 1979 San Francisco Mayoral candidacy.

17 GunstarGreen  Apr 2, 2014 10:19:06am

Go on, little ants. Keep scurrying to your poll booths and thinking that it matters. It’s a happy delusion, is it not?

18 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 10:19:14am

re: #4 Aqua Obama

From downstairs:

Holy cow, Roberts calls what everybody else considers corruption to be “gratitude” and then goes on to cite himself in his own opinion.

I knew he was shameless (see the Commerce Clause stuff he pulled out his ass during the ACA debate), but wow.

Legalized corruption.

Leland Yee (D) in CA is looking at serious charges for corruption and gun running. Apparently, his only mistake with respect to corruption was taking bribes while in office.

The supreme court is saying that pay to play is perfectly legal prior to the election. Perhaps the possibility of non-performance by the bought politician (either because he/she loses the election, or doesn’t stay bought once in office) is the magic pixie dust conferring legality.

19 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 10:20:28am

I just may not ever vote again. Doesn’t seem to make much sense when the candidates are going to be picked for us.

Or maybe I’ve been living an illusion all these years anyway.

20 lawhawk  Apr 2, 2014 10:20:33am
21 ObserverArt  Apr 2, 2014 10:21:19am

I’d like the Justices to explain how Republicans overall poll numbers can be so low yet they do not seem to worry they are not representing actual Republican individual voters.

I think the answer lies in the fact that they are bidders for those with the big bucks and individuals only matter in local races (in gerrymander districts) so that the congressmen can get in congress where they no longer bother with the little guys but are now there to represent the 1% power money.

This whole thing stinks. At some point American people, no matter the party, are going to realize they have no representation (it is sort of clear now) and there is going to be some civil unrest, or a demand for a true independent individual away from the two parties.

One more thing…IRS scandal! Issa!!! How does this play in to all that?

22 TedStriker  Apr 2, 2014 10:21:46am

re: #18 EPR-radar

Leland Yee (D) in CA is looking at serious charges for corruption and gun running. Apparently, his only mistake with respect to corruption was taking bribes while in office.

The supreme court is saying that pay to play is perfectly legal prior to the election. Perhaps the possibility of non-performance by the bought politician (either because he/she loses the election, or doesn’t stay bought once in office) is the magic pixie dust conferring legality.

It’s still bullshit.

23 iossarian  Apr 2, 2014 10:22:12am

Apart from anything else, this sort of crap is a drag on the economy, to the extent that the money ends up paying people to do work that has very little value.

24 S'latch  Apr 2, 2014 10:22:12am

Definitely the Money Quote:

“Spending large sums of money in connection with elections, but not in connection with an effort to control the exercise of an officeholder’s official duties, does not give rise to such quid pro quo corruption. Nor does the possibility that an individual who spends large sums may garner ‘influence over or access to’ elected officials or political parties.”

- Chief Justice John Roberts, McCutcheon v. FEC.

25 kirkspencer  Apr 2, 2014 10:22:28am

I have said in the past that one of the big things I wish is that regardless of caps, I want transparency. I want to know who is donating money. Names, not cover organizations. Two really big reasons: the obvious, to know who the Big Spenders really are, and the less obvious knowing when that money is coming from foreign sources.

I want any fund that donates to politicians to publicly list all contributors by name and dollar amount. If we’re going to let people buy elections, I want to know who owns a particular politician.

26 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 10:23:02am

The only way conservatives can win elections is to buy the results, and these assholes want to make sure they can do it.

27 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:24:27am

HURR HURR YOONYUNZ!!!!!!

28 TedStriker  Apr 2, 2014 10:25:05am

re: #26 Kragar

The only way conservatives can win elections is to buy the results, and these assholes want to make sure they can do it.

Stack the deck against those who don’t have the same “buying power” as the “conservative” money machine and Bob’s your uncle.

Helluva election strategy, ain’t it?

29 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:25:18am
30 TedStriker  Apr 2, 2014 10:25:52am

re: #25 kirkspencer

I have said in the past that one of the big things I wish is that regardless of caps, I want transparency. I want to know who is donating money. Names, not cover organizations. Two really big reasons: the obvious, to know who the Big Spenders really are, and the less obvious knowing when that money is coming from foreign sources.

I want any fund that donates to politicians to publicly list all contributors by name and dollar amount. If we’re going to let people buy elections, I want to know who owns a particular politician.

And make them wear “sponsorship” patches, just like race car drivers.

31 S'latch  Apr 2, 2014 10:27:43am

“Spending large sums of money in connection with elections … does not give rise to such quid pro quo corruption.”

- Chief Justice John Roberts, McCutcheon v. FEC.

What’s with the hedge word “such?”

Is it because the statement that “Spending large sums of money in connection with elections … does not give rise to … quid pro quo corruption.” would be more obviously absurd?

32 TedStriker  Apr 2, 2014 10:27:54am

re: #19 Justanotherhuman

I just may not ever vote again. Doesn’t seem to make much sense when the candidates are going to be picked for us.

Or maybe I’ve been living an illusion all these years anyway.

We can’t do that, we mustn’t do that.

If we’re going to go down, we need to go down fighting, if for no other reason than to show future generations that there was once a great nation called the United States of America and that someone really gave a damn about it.

33 Lidane  Apr 2, 2014 10:28:37am

re: #26 Kragar

The only way conservatives can win elections is to buy the results, and these assholes want to make sure they can do it.

They stop the people they don’t like from voting and then buy the results they want.

And these assholes rant and rail against Chicago style corruption? They make every Chicago pol a rank amateur in comparison.

34 S'latch  Apr 2, 2014 10:28:51am

I guess I have to read the whole opinion. Later.

35 nines09  Apr 2, 2014 10:29:42am

This just institutionalizes corruption. Money talks and the rest of you suckers can just piss off. Democracy. The dream is dead.

36 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:30:39am

Look at what “Constitution Guy” is holding in his other hand. No it’s not a gun!

37 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 10:30:52am

This is just fucking pathetic. Its a spit in the face to the spirit of actual democracy and free elections.

38 S'latch  Apr 2, 2014 10:31:30am

The whole opinion.

39 Bulworth  Apr 2, 2014 10:33:43am

re: #36 Pie-onist Overlord

What’s he/she holding? (can’t see pic because work computer, etc)

40 Lidane  Apr 2, 2014 10:33:49am

re: #37 Kragar

This is just fucking pathetic. Its a spit in the face to the spirit of actual democracy and free elections.

Honestly at this point they should just repeal the voting rights Amendments, repeal the Voting Rights Act and make it so that the only people who get to vote for anything are billionaires. It’s what the Republican party wants anyway.

41 Dr. Matt  Apr 2, 2014 10:33:54am

Next time you hear a dudebro librul whining how there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans, point to this decision. THIS is exactly why we need to elect Democrats, including blue dogs, in every office in the land. I am so disgusted with the SCOTUS. I can’t believe (but I should) that this is happening in our country.

42 Lidane  Apr 2, 2014 10:33:59am

re: #39 Bulworth

What’s he/she holding? (can’t see pic because work computer, etc)

Money. What else?

43 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 10:34:47am

cnn.com

Pelosi and some other legislators called for new campaign finance legislation in response to the ruling, but such reforms appeared impossible in an election year.

We’d love to stop this influx of money into the political system but we’re busy counting all this money that just poured in.

44 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 10:35:00am

re: #35 nines09

This just institutionalizes corruption. Money talks and the rest of you suckers can just piss off. Democracy. The dream is dead.

Nah. It’s just harder. Money has always bought a lot of influence. now it buys a bit more. We can fight back against this.

There is a limit to how much money can actually get you. None of Adelson’s candidates won. This is a horrible decision, more horrible precedent, I’m gobsmacked by Roberts’ forced-seeming naivite, but this isn’t the end, it’s just yet another challenge.

Reducing the power of the powerful is never going to be an easy task and it’s never going to be a long string of victories.

45 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:35:12am

re: #39 Bulworth

What’s he/she holding? (can’t see pic because work computer, etc)

It’s one of those McNaughton “crowd scene” illustrations. The figure in the foreground, supposed to represent “Average American Guy,” is clutching a Constitution in one hand and a bunch of money in the other hand.

46 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:35:29am

re: #42 Lidane

Money. What else?

A gun.

47 TedStriker  Apr 2, 2014 10:35:47am

re: #37 Kragar

This is just fucking pathetic. Its a spit in the face to the spirit of actual democracy and free elections.

QFT.

With this, I see that our government no longer has any moral authority in telling other countries how to hold fair, free elections, because now our elections are going to be much less fair and much less free. However, that doesn’t mean that us grunts in the foxholes shouldn’t keep fighting for what is right.

GOP money men, such as the Kochs and Adelson, have to be licking their lips and cackling with glee right now.

48 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 10:36:13am

Roberts seems to be aiming for Roman levels of corruption. I’m impressed.

49 Lidane  Apr 2, 2014 10:36:25am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

Youtube Video

50 ObserverArt  Apr 2, 2014 10:38:32am

re: #30 TedStriker

And make them wear “sponsorship” patches, just like race car drivers.

As long time auto racing fan, I love this idea.

51 Ryan King  Apr 2, 2014 10:38:53am

Some speech is Free-er than others.

52 nines09  Apr 2, 2014 10:39:33am

re: #44 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Money has always played a big part. Now it’s the super rich and their lackeys who truly control the elections. No amount of grass roots money can overcome UNLIMITED spending by the truly wealthy. The only thing I see is a repeal and underfunding of every social and environmental law including clean air and water acts along with the GOP wet dream of serfs and them at the top. We are really up against a machine that can ruin us all.

53 Ryan King  Apr 2, 2014 10:40:02am

I’m going nuts trying to remember which Portishead song off Dummy I heard playing in Lowe’s yesterday. Strange days.

54 RealityBasedSteve  Apr 2, 2014 10:40:28am

re: #6 Eventual Carrion

So does making corruption/bribery legal make it not corruption/bribery anymore? We need a new word for it when corruption/bribery becomes legal.

EDIT: I see “gratitude” used. Kinda like paying a prostitute.

FIFY

55 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:40:30am

Where is SOROS when you really need him?

56 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 10:40:43am

re: #52 nines09

Money has always played a big part. Now it’s the super rich and their lackeys who truly control the elections. No amount of grass roots money can overcome UNLIMITED spending by the truly wealthy.

But this isn’t true. You could put unlimited spending behind getting Rush Limbaugh elected mayor of New York, and it’d never happen. Ever.

The only thing I see is a repeal and underfunding of every social and environmental law including clean air and water acts along with the GOP wet dream of serfs and them at the top. We are really up against a machine that can ruin us all.

Okay, well go live in the woods or something then. I’ll be doing that silly old voter registration and get out the vote thing.

57 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 10:40:49am

re: #48 Aqua Obama

Roberts seems to be aiming for Roman levels of corruption. I’m impressed.

The minimum to fight for at this point is total transparency. If the money is not limited than at least make it very very clear who is doing the buying and how much they are spending. And make it apply to all the PACs as well the moment they start spending money on political advocacy.

58 iossarian  Apr 2, 2014 10:41:08am

re: #55 Pie-onist Overlord

Where is SOROS when you really need him?

He’s in his volcano lair.

59 kirkspencer  Apr 2, 2014 10:43:16am

OK, some brakes on the ‘unlimited spending’ remarks.

per candidate spending is still limited, and the court emphasized that was legitimate.

What broke was aggregate spending. Yes, that’s bad. It means a person or organization can put money in every single race. There is some increased leverage due to echo.

But a donor cannot send unlimited money to, say, Cruz for President. Not personally and directly. (And limits both as a PAC and as a ‘general’ subject were already released some time ago.)

60 Lidane  Apr 2, 2014 10:44:16am

re: #50 ObserverArt

As long time auto racing fan, I love this idea.

They could do the whole Morgan Spurlock thing from his film The Greatest Movie Ever Sold:

61 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:44:22am
62 RealityBasedSteve  Apr 2, 2014 10:44:50am

re: #50 ObserverArt

As long time auto racing fan, I love this idea.

Can you imagine the winner’s acceptance speech…

I’m so glad that we won the Monsanto Congressional Election! Our Koch Brothers campaign team worked long hours, and our Hobby Lobby Get Out the Vote effort really paid off. I have to of course thank my Bank Of America Wife, and our Toy Manufacturers Lobby Children for their support.

RBS

63 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 10:45:18am

re: #48 Aqua Obama

Roberts seems to be aiming for Roman levels of corruption. I’m impressed.

Which, if we take this analogy to the obvious conclusion, the government would be justified in seizing the assets and banishing Adelson, the Kochs and the Waltons, etc

64 nines09  Apr 2, 2014 10:45:40am

re: #56 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I do the same although I live in a RED county surrounded by red counties and they are about as stupid as a box of rocks. I just get angry at the amount of stupidity/ignorance I see every day. I have a life to live and people to love and care for. News like this just kills me. This is icing on a big fat GOP cake.

65 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:45:41am
66 Shiplord Kirel  Apr 2, 2014 10:46:47am

Speech is still free. Being heard just got a lot more expensive though.

67 RealityBasedSteve  Apr 2, 2014 10:46:48am

re: #65 Pie-onist Overlord

Image is SO Stolen to my machine!!!!

RBS

68 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 10:47:55am

re: #64 nines09

I understand it’s painful and frustrating, but declaring it’s the end is also dispiriting, and gains nothing. I’m immensely lucky that I’ve managed to live my life mostly in sane havens, like NYC and SF, and I’m glad for it. This year my resolve is to do more actual outreach in the red counties, rather than running up the numbers in blue.

69 Dr Lizardo  Apr 2, 2014 10:48:38am

re: #26 Kragar

The only way conservatives can win elections is to buy the results, and these assholes want to make sure they can do it.

I found it! The RW’ers new campaign theme song.

Youtube Video

70 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 10:48:51am

re: #59 kirkspencer

OK, some brakes on the ‘unlimited spending’ remarks.

per candidate spending is still limited, and the court emphasized that was legitimate.

What broke was aggregate spending. Yes, that’s bad. It means a person or organization can put money in every single race. There is some increased leverage due to echo.

But a donor cannot send unlimited money to, say, Cruz for President. Not personally and directly. (And limits both as a PAC and as a ‘general’ subject were already released some time ago.)

True enough, but spending limits in individual races are in the crosshairs. It’s the only restriction left, and is inconsistent with the stupid money = speech idea that the wreckers on the supreme court are using to do away with donor restrictions in general.

In other words, I’m assuming that any language in this decision that apparently supports limits on per candidate spending is a bunch of lies, and that this court is merely waiting for an opportune case and moment to do away with it all.

71 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 10:49:07am

re: #24 S’latch

Definitely the Money Quote:

“Spending large sums of money in connection with elections, but not in connection with an effort to control the exercise of an officeholder’s official duties, does not give rise to such quid pro quo corruption. Nor does the possibility that an individual who spends large sums may garner ‘influence over or access to’ elected officials or political parties.”

- Chief Justice John Roberts, McCutcheon v. FEC.

They’re all money quotes now.

72 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 10:50:24am

re: #69 Dr Lizardo

I found it! The RW’ers new campaign theme song.

[Embedded content]

I was thinking this, to work with their base:

Youtube Video

73 CriticalDragon1177  Apr 2, 2014 10:51:35am

Charles Johnson

This does not bode well for the future of the country. I hope the supreme court eventually reverses itself on this.

74 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:51:44am

#tcot wingnuts are having orgasms over this SCOTUS decision, they think it means MOAR FREEDUMB!!!!!

75 William Barnett-Lewis  Apr 2, 2014 10:52:33am

re: #74 Pie-onist Overlord

#tcot wingnuts are having orgasms over this SCOTUS decision, they think it means MOAR FREEDUMB!!!!!

[Embedded content]

They really don’t get they’ll be serfs too.

76 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:52:54am

I FOR ONE WELCOME ARE KOCH OVERLORDS!!!!!!! WHO SHALL WE SHOOT FOR YOU MY LORD!!!!!

77 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 10:53:24am

re: #73 CriticalDragon1177

Charles Johnson

This does not bode well for the future of the country. I hope the supreme court eventually reverses itself on this.

That can only happen with some personnel changes. Having a sane president is important.

78 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 10:53:41am

re: #75 William Barnett-Lewis

They really don’t get they’ll be serfs too.

They never pegged onto the concept that the “trustee” in prison movies are still actually prisoners either.

79 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 10:54:36am

re: #55 Pie-onist Overlord

Where is SOROS when you really need him?

He’s spending money as usual. Podesta, from the Center for American Progress (which doesn’t disclose its funding) is actually now on White House Staff. Spending on campaigns is a serious concern, but unfortunately the national conversation is about getting the other guy’s (Soros/Koch) money out of politics. It’s depressing but I’m very doubtful anything can/will be done about it.

80 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:54:39am

WTF

81 lawhawk  Apr 2, 2014 10:55:23am

re: #74 Pie-onist Overlord

This nitwit actually thinks that the Koch brothers have this guy’s interests in mind? The Koch brothers are out to benefit themselves first and foremost. Enacting policies that inure benefits to them. If a crumb falls off the Koch table and hits this guy on the way down to the floor, it wasn’t on purpose. It was just the scraps the Koch brothers weren’t interested in.

This isn’t about altruism on the part of the Koch brothers. Their agenda is to benefit and enrich themselves. That means reducing the tax burden to themselves and their business interests and shifting that burden elsewhere. There’s no where else for that burden to fall except on those who are least able to afford it - including this nitwit.

82 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:55:46am
83 Lidane  Apr 2, 2014 10:56:13am

re: #75 William Barnett-Lewis

They really don’t get they’ll be serfs too.

Because they’ve bought into the lie that they’re “job creators” and entirely self-made and that if the Republicans succeed in destroying this country that they’ll be granted their own little fiefdom with libruls to work the fields.

It never dawns on them that they’re never going to be in charge of anything if the GOP gets its way. Only the billionaires matter.

84 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 10:56:24am

re: #79 Killgore Trout

He’s spending money as usual. Podesta, from the Center for American Progress (which doesn’t disclose its funding) is actually now on White House Staff. Spending on campaigns is a serious concern, but unfortunately the national conversation is about getting the other guy’s (Soros/Koch) money out of politics. It’s depressing but I’m very doubtful anything can/will be done about it.

The national conversation, compared:

House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi of California said the decision “only serves to widen the floodgates of special interest spending, eroding the sacred American doctrine that it is the voices of the people, not the bank accounts of the privileged few that should determine our elections and our policies.”

“What I think this means is that freedom of speech is being upheld,” said House Speaker John Boehner, an Ohio Republican. “You all have the freedom to write what you want to write donors ought to have the freedom to give what they want to give.”

Yeah, obviously the GOP and the Democrats are on the same side on this. It’s not like if one of the right-wing supreme court justices retired and was replaced by an Obama nominee that this decision wouldn’t be reversed.

Krazy Killgore’s Magical Balance Follies.

85 Lidane  Apr 2, 2014 10:57:09am

re: #79 Killgore Trout

Youtube Video

86 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 10:58:45am
87 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 10:59:10am

re: #80 Pie-onist Overlord

WTF

[Embedded content]

That guy’s a serial idiot.

88 kirkspencer  Apr 2, 2014 10:59:18am

re: #71 wrenchwench

They’re all money quotes now.

Argued like a shyster.

Quid pro quo is demonstrably bribery. Influence and gratitude aren’t.

So flying a supreme court justice out to a private event, providing food and lodging and making sure he comes home with some good trophies, all just before hearing the case in which you’re active isn’t quid pro quo - provided you’ve been doing it for a while (especially when your cases are not on the court docket but are still in the lower courts).

89 Dr Lizardo  Apr 2, 2014 11:00:45am

re: #83 Lidane

Because they’ve bought into the lie that they’re “job creators” and entirely self-made and that if the Republicans succeed in destroying this country that they’ll be granted their own little fiefdom with libruls to work the fields.

It never dawns on them that they’re never going to be in charge of anything if the GOP gets its way. Only the billionaires matter.

Yep…..the serfs of the future cringing at the hand of their feudal masters.

90 Shiplord Kirel  Apr 2, 2014 11:00:46am

We have a lot of good cattle auctioneers here in Texas. We can save money and time on elections now by just herding the politicians into the arena at the Fort Worth stockyards and letting the auctioneers do the rest. Fatcats would have to pay for their bidding privileges, of course, which would make it even more profitable.

91 Ryan King  Apr 2, 2014 11:01:00am

re: #80 Pie-onist Overlord

Well, he is from one of the ‘Worlds of Oz.’

92 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 11:01:29am

re: #87 darthstar

That guy’s a serial idiot.

It’s probably a Heritage/AFP bot, the Kochs have like a bazillion sockpuppets.

93 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 11:04:04am
94 The War TARDIS  Apr 2, 2014 11:05:02am

OT, but I think I know the reason why I have been increasingly erratic. Exhaustion. Waiting for my doctor now.

I think it is a combination of a compromised sleep schedule (I can only get 6 to 7 hours of sleep a night), still being stuck in college routine of 1 to 2 meals a day, and a handful of chronic stressors.

95 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 11:06:18am

re: #94 The War TARDIS

OT, but I think I know the reason why I have been increasingly erratic. Exhaustion. Waiting for my doctor now.

I think it is a combination of a compromised sleep schedule (I can only get 6 to 7 hours of sleep a night), still being stuck in college routine of 1 to 2 meals a day, and a handful of chronic stressors.

I just blame my cats.

But hope you find relief and feel better in any case!

96 AntonSirius  Apr 2, 2014 11:06:23am

re: #93 Kragar

[Embedded content]

97 Lidane  Apr 2, 2014 11:06:38am

re: #90 Shiplord Kirel

We have a lot of good cattle auctioneers here in Texas. We can save money and time on elections now by just herding the politicians into the arena at the Fort Worth stockyards and letting the auctioneers do the rest. Fatcats would have to pay for their bidding privileges, of course, which would make it even more profitable.

They should get the auctioneers from those Storage Wars shows to run the elections. At least then people might be inclined to watch.

98 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 11:07:11am

re: #94 The War TARDIS

OT, but I think I know the reason why I have been increasingly erratic. Exhaustion. Waiting for my doctor now.

I think it is a combination of a compromised sleep schedule (I can only get 6 to 7 hours of sleep a night), still being stuck in college routine of 1 to 2 meals a day, and a handful of chronic stressors.

A proper diet schedule can make all the difference. I used to skip breakfast all the time and figured I’d make it up at Lunch or Dinner and paid the price for it. Since I started making the time to make sure I get something in me in the morning, I’ve started improving.

99 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 11:07:29am

re: #94 The War TARDIS

Maybe ask for a referral to a counselor to get a handle on your habits.

100 The War TARDIS  Apr 2, 2014 11:09:08am

The sleep schedule part is the nastiest. I’ve had it since I was little. Symptom of my form of Autism. (Asperger’s)

101 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 11:09:39am

Some will rob you with a six-gun, some with a fountain pen. —Woody G

102 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 11:10:34am

re: #100 The War TARDIS

The sleep schedule part is the nastiest. I’ve had it since I was little. Symptom of my form of Autism. (Asperger’s)

Happy Autism Awareness Day!

103 William Barnett-Lewis  Apr 2, 2014 11:12:09am

re: #94 The War TARDIS

OT, but I think I know the reason why I have been increasingly erratic. Exhaustion. Waiting for my doctor now.

I think it is a combination of a compromised sleep schedule (I can only get 6 to 7 hours of sleep a night), still being stuck in college routine of 1 to 2 meals a day, and a handful of chronic stressors.

Take care of yourself & get well. {{{PLL}}}

104 Bubblehead II  Apr 2, 2014 11:13:04am

Afternoon Lizards. Here is one more thing to be outraged laugh about.

Artist plants fake Justin Bieber CDs in LA stores

LOS ANGELES (AP) - An artist is making it difficult to believe there’s actually a copy of Justin Bieber’s latest album for sale in Los Angeles stores.

Paz, a 25-year-old electronic musician and artist, says he planted 5,000 copies of an album that appears to be Bieber’s “Believe” but actually contains a copy of his own CD at retailers such as Best Buy, Wal-Mart and Target on Tuesday, April Fool’s Day.

//

105 Skip Intro  Apr 2, 2014 11:15:04am
The five-vote majority in favor of virtually unlimited corporate and individual spending in our elections is a rock solid one. Four days after almost every Republican candidate danced the hootchie-koo in Vegas to try and gain the support of a single, skeevy casino gazillionnaire, the majority tells us that there is no “appearance of corruption” in this unless somebody gets caught putting a slot machine in the Lincoln Bedroom on behalf of Sheldon Adelson. Money talks. Big money repeats itself, over and over, age after age.

- Charles Pierce

106 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 11:17:03am

All the “Union Bosses” all put together would not have the spending power of even one Koch.

107 Stanley Sea  Apr 2, 2014 11:19:07am

re: #100 The War TARDIS

The sleep schedule part is the nastiest. I’ve had it since I was little. Symptom of my form of Autism. (Asperger’s)

I am happiest now that I get my sleep. I love 9 hours but settle for 8. Every single night tyvm.

108 jaunte  Apr 2, 2014 11:19:34am

re: #106 Pie-onist Overlord

He’s challenged about the meaning of the word “single.”

109 kirkspencer  Apr 2, 2014 11:19:41am

re: #100 The War TARDIS

The sleep schedule part is the nastiest. I’ve had it since I was little. Symptom of my form of Autism. (Asperger’s)

Check into the possibility of split scheduling your sleep. (I’ve had reason to look into this but am not an expert, so apply salt to taste.)

Here’s the basic principle. The mind seems to need a certain amount of dream cycles per day (nominal 24 hour period). And the body needs time in total relaxation to move resources around. Most folk do both with a good 8 hour sleep. BUT, there were some folk who got a little interest in Churchill’s experience during WWII.

The PM only slept about 4-5 hour at night. He was up past midnight and up before the dawn. Yet he was fully operational, suffering none of the problems associated with sleep deprivation. The thing is in addition to his night sleep he took a long early-afternoon nap, of 3-4 hours duration. And the people who got interested went looking to see if it was true and if it worked.

Answer is cloudy. Or more accurately: it works for some people. In the process scientists studying sleep also learned that some people cram more dream cycles into a period and others fewer, which is why some people seem ok on 7 hours and others drag unless they get a solid 9 hours. But I digress. Add in a bunch of outlier items that are interesting but longwinded and I’ve digressed enough already.

Thing is, if you’re having trouble getting more than 6 hours but you NEED more, try a split cycle. The simplistic measure is to make it oppose your primary sleep cycle. So if you sleep from, say, 10 to 4 (6 hours) at night then you should try to take a 2 hour nap (plus 15 minutes to GO to sleep) from noon to 2.

it might not work for you. Those same various studies say it’s not for everyone - that a lot of people need the consecutive 8 to make things work. But there’s a surprising number of people - as much as half the population - for whom it probably would work.

110 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 11:19:49am

re: #104 Bubblehead II

Afternoon Lizards. Here is one more thing to be outraged laugh about.

[Embedded content]

I think that falls in the “cute, but unfortunately criminal” department. Perhaps a neat idea, but not fair to the other parties, and it will probably not end well for the artist who played the “joke”.

111 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 11:19:54am

re: #107 Stanley Sea

I am happiest now that I get my sleep. I love 9 hours but settle for 8. Every single night tyvm.

Ambien. It works.

112 Bulworth  Apr 2, 2014 11:20:08am

re: #106 Pie-onist Overlord

Yeah all those unions bosses leading all those union employees who make up 50% 13% of the workforce.

/

113 klys  Apr 2, 2014 11:20:55am

re: #111 Pie-onist Overlord

Ambien. It works.

Also excellent for tripping out.

/

Seriously I will never take that shit again keep it far away from me.

114 Stanley Sea  Apr 2, 2014 11:21:45am

Hey you Texans! I’m getting ready to board flight w 2 hr layover @DFW. Heeeeeeey!

115 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 11:22:00am

re: #113 klys

Also excellent for tripping out.

/

Seriously I will never take that shit again keep it far away from me.

Zaleplon fucks you up.

116 kirkspencer  Apr 2, 2014 11:22:26am

re: #114 Stanley Sea

Hey you Texans! I’m getting ready to board flight w 2 hr layover @DFW. Heeeeeeey!

Hoorah, someone is escaping!

///

117 b.d.  Apr 2, 2014 11:23:39am

re: #106 Pie-onist Overlord

All the “Union Bosses” all put together would not have the spending power of even one Koch.

[Embedded content]

Just a few short months before Steve works for no one again.

WND? Breitbart?

118 Stanley Sea  Apr 2, 2014 11:23:44am

re: #114 Stanley Sea

Hey you Texans! I’m getting ready to board flight w 2 hr layover @DFW. Heeeeeeey!

I meant the airport D F W

119 klys  Apr 2, 2014 11:23:47am

re: #115 Pie-onist Overlord

Zaleplon fucks you up.

Ambien did quite a fine job all on its own.

I don’t take things to help me sleep anymore. It’d have to be pretty bad before I’d consider it again.

120 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 11:23:54am

re: #111 Pie-onist Overlord

Ambien. It works.

Amount of sleep normally needed also changes with age. IIRC, it’s teenagers that need the most (probably busy wiring lots of neuron connections in the downtime.) And reduced need after that with age.

I’ve shifted from needing a solid nine hours twenty years ago to often only needing seven and a half or so. Given my habits still not quite enough, especially with having dawn-rising pets about who don’t follow daylight savings time.

121 Stanley Sea  Apr 2, 2014 11:24:05am

And I’m outta here!

122 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 11:24:13am

Something I forgot to mention earlier about this SC decision is that it never should have been heard at all.

There is no constitutional question in campaign expenditure limits that apply to all people equally. None.

This money = speech idea is a higher-bullshit fantasy concocted by right wing nut jobs in order to make campaign expenditure limits into constitutional questions.

123 b.d.  Apr 2, 2014 11:24:41am

re: #114 Stanley Sea

Hey you Texans! I’m getting ready to board flight w 2 hr layover @DFW. Heeeeeeey!

Let CNN know where your plane is at all times & let them know if you spot anything that might be Malaysian air debris on your way to DFW.

124 klys  Apr 2, 2014 11:25:16am

Ok, first grocery store run of the day should commence.

Later, Lizards.

125 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 11:25:26am

re: #123 b.d.

Let CNN know where your plane is at all times.

Yes, please do. Wolf Blitzer needs more material to treat as highly important to drone on about.
/

126 S'latch  Apr 2, 2014 11:26:54am

re: #86 Pie-onist Overlord

Freedom

127 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 11:27:34am

re: #126 S’latch

Freedom

Shouldn’t Thomas have the Coke sponsorship?

128 CriticalDragon1177  Apr 2, 2014 11:28:10am

re: #74 Pie-onist Overlord

#tcot wingnuts are having orgasms over this SCOTUS decision, they think it means MOAR FREEDUMB!!!!!


They don’t understand what freedom means.

129 CriticalDragon1177  Apr 2, 2014 11:29:35am

re: #126 S’latch

Freedom

Oh yes. Our supreme court, bought and sold.

130 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 11:29:58am

Quick! Issue another exoneration report! Stat!

nbcnews.com

Polling showing that New Jersey citizens not buying into the proclamation of innocence.

131 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 11:30:47am

re: #128 CriticalDragon1177

They don’t understand what freedom means.

They also think getting overworked for no extra pay means they’re successful.

132 S'latch  Apr 2, 2014 11:31:24am

re: #127 Feline Fearless Leader

Anita high-tech Photoshop for that.

133 The War TARDIS  Apr 2, 2014 11:31:47am

re: #113 klys

I take an antidepressant called Trazodone. It can double as a sleep aid. It does help me get to sleep, but I still wake up after only 6 to 7 hours.

After waking up, it can take me quite a while to move.

134 kirkspencer  Apr 2, 2014 11:32:18am

re: #132 S’latch

Anita high-tech Photoshop for that.

Gimp works. What you really need is practice.

135 Skip Intro  Apr 2, 2014 11:33:01am

The Supremes have just given the recently dead Charles Keating a wonderful endorsement of his view of bribing politicians.

Said Charlie when asked whether his payments to politicians had worked, Keating said, “I want to say in the most forceful way I can: I certainly hope so.”

136 Varek Raith  Apr 2, 2014 11:33:27am
“Spending large sums of money in connection with elections, but not in connection with an effort to control the exercise of an officeholder’s official duties, does not give rise to such quid pro quo corruption,” Roberts wrote in the ruling. “Nor does the possibility that an individual who spends large sums may garner ‘influence over or access to’ elected officials or political parties.”

BUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

137 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 11:33:29am

re: #132 S’latch

Anita high-tech Photoshop for that.

<_<

I saw what you did there.

138 Dr Lizardo  Apr 2, 2014 11:34:05am

re: #120 Feline Fearless Leader

Amount of sleep normally needed also changes with age. IIRC, it’s teenagers that need the most (probably busy wiring lots of neuron connections in the downtime.) And reduced need after that with age.

I’ve shifted from needing a solid nine hours twenty years ago to often only needing seven and a half or so. Given my habits still not quite enough, especially with having dawn-rising pets about who don’t follow daylight savings time.

No matter what time I go to bed, I automatically wake up five hours later. And I find it difficult to go back to sleep. It’s like - FULL POWER: HERE WE GO!! - every day.

I’ve been like that as long as I can remember. On the other hand, it’s amazing what you can get done in a 19-hour day.

139 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 11:34:33am

re: #135 Skip Intro

The Supremes have just given the recently dead Charles Keating a wonderful endorsement of his view of bribing politicians.

Said Charlie when asked whether his payments to politicians had worked, Keating said, “I want to say in the most forceful way I can: I certainly hope so.”

The Maverick weathered that storm amazingly well.
(spit)

140 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 11:34:33am

re: #126 S’latch

141 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 11:36:03am
142 S'latch  Apr 2, 2014 11:36:32am

re: #140 dog philosopher

Twas ever thus

143 Skip Intro  Apr 2, 2014 11:37:02am

re: #139 Feline Fearless Leader

The Maverick weathered that storm amazingly well.
(spit)

Yes, and in thanks for being spared, he gave us Sarah Palin.

144 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 11:37:20am

re: #140 dog philosopher

[Embedded image]

That was one of the reasons for continued attempts to enact direct election of Senators (successful with passing of the 17th Amendment in 1913.)

en.wikipedia.org

145 Skip Intro  Apr 2, 2014 11:38:25am

re: #144 Feline Fearless Leader

That was one of the reasons for continued attempts to enact direct election of Senators (successful with passing of the 17th Amendment in 1913.)

en.wikipedia.org

Well, the SC has just reversed the effects of that amendment quite effectively.

146 Romantic Heretic  Apr 2, 2014 11:39:11am

Thinking of H. Beam Piper’s Space Viking.

I’m sorry, Prince Vandervarnt. You had a wonderful society. It’s too late now. The gates are down and the barbarians are in.

Sad to see a great nation commit suicide.

147 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 11:45:41am

re: #126 S’latch

Freedom

Justice Elena Kagan, they eated her?

148 jaunte  Apr 2, 2014 11:46:32am

The Sheldon Adelson Suck-Up Fest

Republican contenders prostrated themselves for the casino mogul’s favor—a vivid illustration of who owns the GOP.

“…The top item on Adelson’s political agenda is well known—support for Israel and a maximally aggressive approach to American foreign policy, particularly in the Mideast. These days, he has another cause: banning Internet gambling. In a mind-bending display of chutzpah, the casino magnate has concluded that online gaming poses a moral risk to Americans. (Gamblers’ virtue is presumably assured if they stick to periodic land pilgrimages to the Venetian and other Sands properties.) Adelson has donated to and hosted fundraisers for Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, who has suddenly discovered his own inner moral crusader and become the primary sponsor of the bill in Congress to ban Internet gambling.”

149 jaunte  Apr 2, 2014 11:48:17am

Quid pro quo.

150 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 11:48:55am

I dunno, I like Breyer and Ginsburg, but I wonder if now is the time for them to step down if they don’t want to see their ideals further destroyed. They’re not getting any younger, and soon the Senate may be in the GOPs hands.

Of course it won’t happen.

151 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 11:51:09am

re: #149 jaunte

Meanwhile, in Britain:

Political donors must be resident in the UK. There are fixed limits to how much they may donate (£5000 in any single donation), and it must be recorded in the House of Commons Register of Members’ Interests or at the House of Commons Library; the quid pro quo is strictly not allowed, that a donor can by his donation have some personal gain. This is overseen by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. There are also prohibitions on donations being given in the six weeks before the election for which it is being campaigned.[citation needed] It is also illegal for donors to support party political broadcasts, which are tightly regulated, free to air, and scheduled and allotted to the various parties according to a formula agreed by Parliament and enacted with the Communications Act 2003.

152 Skip Intro  Apr 2, 2014 11:51:33am

re: #150 Aqua Obama

I dunno, I like Breyer and Ginsburg, but I wonder if now is the time for them to step down if they don’t want to see their ideals further destroyed. They’re not getting any younger, and soon the Senate may be in the GOPs hands.

Of course it won’t happen.

There’s no reason to think that Obama could get anyone on the Supreme Court unless they were proposed by the Tea Party. Only gaining seats in the Senate would help here, something that seems highly unlikely.

153 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 11:51:41am

re: #149 jaunte

Quid pro quo.

Youtube Video

154 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 11:53:12am

Ya know, I wonder how long it’s gonna be before they consider taxes a limit on free speech.

Oh wait

155 Lidane  Apr 2, 2014 11:56:14am

re: #154 Aqua Obama

Ya know, I wonder how long it’s gonna be before they consider taxes a limit on free speech.

Oh wait

I’m waiting for the vaguely worded Constitutional amendment that equates money and speech and which gives people one vote for every dollar they donate.

It would be more honest than anything else the GOP are doing these days.

156 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 11:58:44am
157 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 11:59:22am
158 Skip Intro  Apr 2, 2014 12:01:15pm

re: #155 Lidane

I’m waiting for the vaguely worded Constitutional amendment that equates money and speech and which gives people one vote for every dollar they donate.

It would be more honest than anything else the GOP are doing these days.

“Corporations are people too, my friend” - Mitt Romney.

So why can’t they vote, with the number of votes they can cast equal to the number of shareholders they have? Of course, just like executive compensation and perks, who the corporation votes for would have to go through the Board of Directors, with the shareholders getting to say yay or nay based on the number of shares they own.

What could be fairer?

159 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 12:03:44pm

Influence, n. In politics, a visionary quo given in exchange for a substantial quid.

—Ambrose Bierce

160 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 12:04:01pm

re: #158 Skip Intro

“Corporations are people too, my friend” - Mill Romney.

So why can’t they vote, with the number of votes they can cast equal to the number of shareholders they have? Of course, just like executive compensation and perks, who the corporation votes for would have to go through the Board of Directors, with the shareholders getting to say yay or nay based on the number of shares they own.

What could be fairer?

Let’s compromise: count shareholders as 3/5 of a person.

161 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 12:04:33pm

re: #155 Lidane

I’m waiting for the vaguely worded Constitutional amendment that equates money and speech and which gives people one vote for every dollar they donate.

It would be more honest than anything else the GOP are doing these days.

“We the dollars of the United States of America, in order to form a more perfect union…”

162 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 12:06:25pm

UM LET ME THINK, ISN’T THAT WHAT BUYING & SELLING STUFF IS ALL ABOUT?

163 jaunte  Apr 2, 2014 12:07:28pm

re: #162 Pie-onist Overlord

“Why should poor people be able to buy Cokes?”
–Muhtar Kent fake quote

164 Bulworth  Apr 2, 2014 12:08:07pm

re: #144 Feline Fearless Leader

And what a coincidence, our “constitutional” teabag party groupies want to get rid of that amendment, too, so we can go back to having Senate candidates buy their seats directly, rather than buying th em through the indirect advertising method.

165 Skip Intro  Apr 2, 2014 12:08:59pm

re: #160 Pie-onist Overlord

Let’s compromise: count shareholders as 3/5 of a person.

No need. The little people who own a few hundred or thousands of shares of stock have no say in anything the corporation does. Sure they can vote, but they always lose if they vote against what the board wants.

166 Varek Raith  Apr 2, 2014 12:09:08pm

re: #162 Pie-onist Overlord

UM LET ME THINK, ISN’T THAT WHAT BUYING & SELLING STUFF IS ALL ABOUT?

[Embedded content]

Uhh….
Welcome to capitalism, @hartshornguy.

Lol.

167 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 12:09:16pm

re: #162 Pie-onist Overlord

UM LET ME THINK, ISN’T THAT WHAT BUYING & SELLING STUFF IS ALL ABOUT?

“communism is redistribution of wealth”

so is paying for the military out of our taxes

168 Minor_L  Apr 2, 2014 12:10:55pm

The Roberts court might go down as one of the worst Supreme Courts in the U.S.’s history. I guess Roberts would rather have that sweet consulting cash post-Supreme Court tenure than a good legacy.

169 Skip Intro  Apr 2, 2014 12:11:16pm

re: #167 dog philosopher

“communism is redistribution of wealth”

so is paying for the military out of our taxes

I guess we went communist decades ago, because that’s how long we’ve been redistributing wealth from the bottom to the top.

170 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 12:13:56pm

Is it just me, or has the US political system just become a lot like OCP vs Detroit in Robocop 2?

“Any citizen can buy stock in OCP and get a say in Government!”

171 Bulworth  Apr 2, 2014 12:15:05pm

From cnn.com:

NATO’s military chief told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour that Russia has 40,000 troops massed near Ukraine’s border and could invade within 12 hours of being given an order.

Well, those troops sound nice…..

//

172 Targetpractice  Apr 2, 2014 12:15:49pm

re: #170 Kragar

Is it just me, or has the US political system just become a lot like OCP vs Detroit in Robocop 2?

“Any citizen can buy stock in OCP and get a say in Government!”

So when do they break ground on Delta City?

173 jaunte  Apr 2, 2014 12:18:10pm
174 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 12:18:12pm

GOLLUM IS ON TEH TWITTERS.
WE HATES OBAMA, WE HATESSS IT PRECIOUSSSSSS

175 William of Orange  Apr 2, 2014 12:18:56pm

Djebus!! What next??

Is common sense also outlawed??

176 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 12:19:00pm

re: #172 Targetpractice

So when do they break ground on Delta City?

As soon as they gut the EPA

177 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 12:19:45pm

re: #168 Minor_L

The Roberts court might go down as one of the worst Supreme Courts in the U.S.’s history. I guess Roberts would rather have that sweet consulting cash post-Supreme Court tenure than a good legacy.

The supreme court has many stink bombs in its record, the Dred Scott case merely being the most notorious.

Pollock is another real winner.en.wikipedia.org.
This was the case that was overruled by passage of the 16th amendment (income tax). I hadn’t known before, but the Pollock decision held that income tax as applied to rent, dividends and interest was unconstitutional, while also holding that income tax as applied to wages was constitutional.

The Roberts court has a long way to go to get to this level of plutocrat-fellatio. However, they are working diligently on this problem.

178 Bulworth  Apr 2, 2014 12:20:31pm

re: #174 Pie-onist Overlord

Is there an English version of this person’s tweet?

/

179 makeitstop  Apr 2, 2014 12:20:36pm

re: #173 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Those pecs look like a pair of half-empty air pillows.

180 jaunte  Apr 2, 2014 12:22:39pm
181 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 12:24:14pm

re: #171 Bulworth

From cnn.com:

Well, those troops sound nice…..

//

Those aren’t troops, they’re sightseers and tourists coming to visit their relatives!
//

182 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 12:25:19pm

re: #180 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Subtle like that thumb in his eye.

Is that Laura Bush on the left?

183 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 2, 2014 12:25:34pm
184 GunstarGreen  Apr 2, 2014 12:26:01pm

re: #174 Pie-onist Overlord

GOLLUM IS ON TEH TWITTERS.
WE HATES OBAMA, WE HATESSS IT PRECIOUSSSSSS

[Embedded content]

I don’t even understand that kind of thing.

If you’re the kind of asshole that hates the ACA enough to single-issue vote on it, you weren’t voting D in the first place. So how exactly is a list like this supposed to get you to vote them out?

185 Minor_L  Apr 2, 2014 12:26:18pm

re: #177 EPR-radar

Bush v. Gore is already pretty legendarily bad, too. As is Bowers v. Hardwick. At least that one got overturned.

186 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 12:26:23pm

re: #182 wrenchwench

Subtle like that thumb in his eye.

Is that Laura Bush on the left?

That is one fugly outfit.

187 Stanley Sea  Apr 2, 2014 12:27:05pm

re: #123 b.d.

Let CNN know where your plane is at all times & let them know if you spot anything that might be Malaysian air debris on your way to DFW.

Ha. I’m in flight. Even better, Mexican national (very handsome) sitting next to me is small plane pilot coming from small pilot convention in Orlando. L. O. L.

188 Minor_L  Apr 2, 2014 12:27:18pm

re: #182 wrenchwench

Is that Laura Bush on the left?

It definitely looks like her.

189 Timothy Watson  Apr 2, 2014 12:28:01pm

re: #182 wrenchwench

Subtle like that thumb in his eye.

Is that Laura Bush on the left?

Was wondering the same thing, that, or she has a damn doppelganger.

190 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 2, 2014 12:28:57pm
191 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 12:29:38pm

re: #185 Minor_L

Bush v. Gore is already pretty legendarily bad, too. As is Bowers v. Hardwick. At least that one got overturned.

Going back a little further, there were good reasons why FDR and the democrats made noises about adding more justices to the supreme court. That supreme court was getting very political in opposing the New Deal.

IIRC, the court backed down when the threat to “pack the court” became apparent, which is probably why social security survived judicial review.

192 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 12:29:40pm

re: #173 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Finally, now he can marry Sarah Palin.

193 Charles Johnson  Apr 2, 2014 12:29:48pm
194 b.d.  Apr 2, 2014 12:32:17pm

re: #180 jaunte

[Embedded content]

We need to hook up Putin’s ex-wife with Justin Bieber or Pauly Shore or someone.

She needs to be TMZ bait for a while, there are many ways to jack with Putin.

195 Romantic Heretic  Apr 2, 2014 12:33:34pm

re: #184 GunstarGreen

I don’t even understand that kind of thing.

If you’re the kind of asshole that hates the ACA enough to single-issue vote on it, you weren’t voting D in the first place. So how exactly is a list like this supposed to get you to vote them out?

We’re talking about our 2nd Amendment votes! We’ve got more of those than those pansy libtards!

197 Dr. Matt  Apr 2, 2014 12:34:56pm

Conservatives are stupidly spiking the football now under the perverse and misguided belief that today’s ruling is good for them and for America. But, just wait until the Left takes advantage of this ruling and suddenly the fake outrage will be deafening.

198 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 12:38:04pm

re: #189 Timothy Watson

Was wondering the same thing, that, or she has a damn doppelganger.

Maybe while W was gazing into Putin’s eyes, Laura was gazing into Liudmila’s.

199 Targetpractice  Apr 2, 2014 12:38:38pm

But Rinsed Prius assured me that all would be well!

200 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 12:40:19pm

re: #199 Targetpractice

I’d really like to see anyone in the mainstream media call Priebus out for his blatant and offensive lying in a front-page straight news article.

201 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 2, 2014 12:40:39pm
202 Eclectic Cyborg  Apr 2, 2014 12:40:58pm

re: #199 Targetpractice

No, they will be MULTI million dollar checks.

203 Ojoe  Apr 2, 2014 12:42:46pm

The results of campaigns really depend on the intelligence of the people hearing the political messages, not on the loudness or repetition of those messages, which is what the money can buy.

Good luck.

204 Stanley Sea  Apr 2, 2014 12:42:54pm

re: #201 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Hey, bottom line. THE PLANE got my parents off of Fox onto CNN. Pretty happy win for me.

205 Targetpractice  Apr 2, 2014 12:43:05pm

re: #202 Eclectic Cyborg

No, they will be MULTI million dollar checks.

Exactly. $1 million won’t even get your foot in the door. $10 million minimum for a meeting, $100 million for a campaign appearance, $1 billion for a bill of your choice championed during the next Congressional session, and so forth.

206 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 12:44:42pm

re: #197 Dr. Matt

Conservatives are stupidly spiking the football now under the perverse and misguided belief that today’s ruling is good for them and for America. But, just wait until the Left takes advantage of this ruling and suddenly the fake outrage will be deafening.

I’d like to see the Dems make a point with this. They’re probably going to lose midterms anyways so why not have everybody run on public funds? I really think the effects of political spending is overstated anyways. The could run on public funds on a platform of campaign finance reform.

207 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 12:46:35pm

Hey, we can fund shoddy construction as well as the Russians can!

nbcnews.com

208 makeitstop  Apr 2, 2014 12:49:34pm

re: #206 Killgore Trout

I’d like to see the Dems make a point with this. They’re probably going to lose midterms anyways so why not have everybody run on public funds? I really think the effects of political spending is overstated anyways. The could run on public funds on a platform of campaign finance reform.

Sure, just hand the entire shooting match over to the crazy people to make a point.

That would ensure that no Democrat would ever hold elected office on pretty much any level in this country ever again. It would be the suicide of a political party.

209 Ojoe  Apr 2, 2014 12:50:50pm

re: #208 makeitstop

They both should commit suicide.

210 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 12:51:24pm

OK, if the supreme court thinks money is speech, and that everyone should have equal rights to free speech, why does it not follow that perfect communism should be implemented, with everyone having precisely equal income?

211 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 12:51:47pm

re: #206 Killgore Trout

I’d like to see the Dems make a point with this. They’re probably going to lose midterms anyways so why not have everybody run on public funds? I really think the effects of political spending is overstated anyways. The could run on public funds on a platform of campaign finance reform.

Instead they’ll spend 10’s of millions on anti-Koch bros ads. Win!

212 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 12:52:10pm

re: #209 Ojoe

They both should commit suicide.

How’s the Whig Party doing?

213 Ojoe  Apr 2, 2014 12:52:27pm

re: #212 wrenchwench

It is eeking along.

214 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 12:52:45pm

re: #209 Ojoe

They both should commit suicide.

The GOP exists as a vehicle for plutocrats to take total control of the US, and they are rather close to achieving a total victory.

The GOP isn’t going to disband any time soon.

215 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 12:52:51pm

Getting popups on DKos today for a campaign to remove Koch Bros from participating in PBS. Lol

216 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 12:53:18pm

re: #213 Ojoe

It is eeking along.

Ready to step up when the Dems and Repubs commit suicide?

217 Dr. Matt  Apr 2, 2014 12:53:24pm

re: #208 makeitstop

Sure, just hand the entire shooting match over to the crazy people to make a point.

Bingo.

218 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 12:55:12pm

re: #203 Ojoe

The results of campaigns really depend on the intelligence of the people hearing the political messages, not on the loudness or repetition of those messages, which is what the money can buy.

Good luck.

Here’s a shocking idea; They depend on both.

Denying that campaign spending has effect is just pants-on-head stupid.

219 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 12:57:33pm

Oligarchs are influential! Influence, influence, influence!

220 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 12:57:38pm

re: #3 Kragar

This might be the most bullshit ever uttered by a Supreme Court Justice.

…since the dread scott decision

221 Eventual Carrion  Apr 2, 2014 12:59:51pm

re: #74 Pie-onist Overlord

#tcot wingnuts are having orgasms over this SCOTUS decision, they think it means MOAR FREEDUMB!!!!!

[Embedded content]

Yes, having a few select rich people pretty much running the country sounds like just a fucking peachy idea. Almost like Russia or something. But with all the Putin manlove lately I think that is exactly how the RWNJ’s want it.

222 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 1:01:41pm

re: #221 Eventual Carrion

Yes, having a few select rich people pretty much running the country sounds like just a fucking peachy idea. Almost like Russia or something. But with all the Putin manlove lately I think that is exactly how the RWNJ’s want it.

Precisely. Worldwide, the right is usually in favor of aristocracy. The US flavor of this is an aristocracy of the wealthy.

223 lawhawk  Apr 2, 2014 1:01:53pm

re: #220 dog philosopher

…since the dread scott decision

Dread Pirate Roberts perhaps.

But it’s Dred Scott.

224 klys  Apr 2, 2014 1:02:23pm

re: #223 lawhawk

Dread Pirate Roberts perhaps.

But it’s Dred Scott.

Judge Dredd?

//

225 Timothy Watson  Apr 2, 2014 1:05:06pm

re: #222 EPR-radar

Precisely. Worldwide, the right is usually in favor of aristocracy. The US flavor of this is an aristocracy of the wealthy.

They prefer the term “kings”.

226 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:07:13pm

re: #102 wrenchwench

Happy Autism Awareness Day!

With family on the Spectrum, EVERY day is Autism Awareness Day!
///

Speaking of which, the older boy is having his girfriend over this evening and making dinner - Spaghetti Carbonara. He even bought bacon and parsley with his own money.

Now, if only he’d CLEAN UP THE FUCKING KITCHEN!!!!!!

227 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 1:11:05pm

re: #213 Ojoe

It is eeking along.

You guys still support crazy states rights bullshit that would allow oppression of minorities on a state level?

228 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 1:11:33pm

re: #222 EPR-radar

Precisely. Worldwide, the right is usually in favor of aristocracy. The US flavor of this is an aristocracy of the wealthy.

Roberts is like a caricature of a slimy, right-wing lawyer. The sanitation of terms like corruption under a catch-all euphemism like “gratitude” shows how far gone things are getting.

229 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:12:53pm

ON topic, this decision, combined with the academic confirmation that capitalism naturally concentrates wealth, are just depressing. And as if that weren’t bad enough, there’s a hefty portion of the population that thinks this is JUST DANDY.

230 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 1:16:21pm

#CancelColbert and the Return of the Anti-Liberal Left

In England’s left-wing New Statesman, Sarah Ditum wrote of the spread of no-platforming - essentially stopping people whose ideas are deemed offensive from speaking publicly. She cites the shouting down of an opponent of the BDS movement at Galway University and the threats and intimidation leveled at the radical feminist Julie Bindel, who has said cruel things about trans people. “No platform now uses the pretext of opposing hate speech to justify outrageously dehumanising language, and sets up an ideal of ‘safe spaces’ within which certain individuals can be harassed,” wrote Ditum. “A tool that was once intended to protect democracy from undemocratic movements has become a weapon used by the undemocratic against democracy.”

Call it left-wing anti-liberalism: the idea, captured by Herbert Marcuse in his 1965 essay “Repressive Tolerance,” that social justice demands curbs on freedom of expression. “[I]t is possible to define the direction in which prevailing institutions, policies, opinions would have to be changed in order to improve the chance of a peace which is not identical with cold war and a little hot war, and a satisfaction of needs which does not feed on poverty, oppression, and exploitation,” he wrote. “Consequently, it is also possible to identify policies, opinions, movements which would promote this chance, and those which would do the opposite. Suppression of the regressive ones is a prerequisite for the strengthening of the progressive ones.”

Note here both the belief that correct opinions can be dispassionately identified, and the blithe confidence in the wisdom of those empowered to do the suppressing.

231 Dr. Matt  Apr 2, 2014 1:17:33pm

Prepare for RWNJ outrage and pearl clutching:

First legal weed-related death reported in Colorado

A Wyoming college student visiting Colorado on spring break is the first reported death related to the legal sale of recreational marijuana.

Levy Thamba, a student at Northwest College, fell to his death last month from the balcony of a Holiday Inn in Denver.

Autopsy results released Monday showed the 19-year-old Thamba, who was also known as Levi Thamba Pongi, died from multiple injuries caused by the fall.

232 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 1:21:40pm

#3,594,093 Why women can’t get ahead in the world.

Mexico political boss denies secretary sex claims

bigstory.ap.org

MEXICO CITY (AP) — A local political chief from Mexico’s ruling party is denying local press reports that his office hired women to have sex with him by placing them on party payrolls as secretaries or receptionists.

“Most Mexican political parties pay their operating expenses with government money, making the allegations even more troubling.

“The reports involve Cuauhtemoc Gutierrez, the Mexico City leader of President Enrique Pena Nieto’s Institutional Revolutionary Party.” More

233 Dr. Matt  Apr 2, 2014 1:22:30pm

re: #224 klys

Judge Dredd?

//

Judge Dredd

234 Targetpractice  Apr 2, 2014 1:22:45pm

re: #231 Dr. Matt

Prepare for RWNJ >outrage and pearl clutching:

Yet if you changed every instance of “marijuana” in that story with “alcohol,” it would be buried on page A16.

235 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 1:24:28pm

re: #233 Dr. Matt

Judge Dredd

Pity that the reflected flames are not those from Stallone’s career.
/

236 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 1:25:17pm

re: #231 Dr. Matt

Prepare for RWNJ >outrage and pearl clutching:

He would never have done that if he had just been drinking alcohol while underage.
///

237 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 1:25:30pm

re: #234 Targetpractice

Yet if you changed every instance of “marijuana” in that story with “alcohol,” it would be buried on page A16.

And soon there will be the huge influx of rampaging angry stoner articles as well.
/

238 sattv4u2  Apr 2, 2014 1:26:01pm

re: #231 Dr. Matt

fell to his death last month from the balcony of a Holiday Inn in Denver.

Tis the season. There are one or two of these each year during spring break season. Myrtle Beach ,,, San Padre island ,,, Panama City Beach et al.

239 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 1:26:46pm

re: #235 Feline Fearless Leader

Pity that the reflected flames are not those from Stallone’s career.
/

Its the burning remains of LotR, Star Wars, Star Trek, and the Godfather.


Dredd Wins March Movie Madness, Named Favorite Film on Amazon’s Facebook Page

240 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 1:28:00pm

Raise it!

241 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:28:11pm

re: #233 Dr. Matt

Judge Dredd

“UHYAMTHUHLAW!”

242 Bulworth  Apr 2, 2014 1:28:16pm

re: #231 Dr. Matt

Yeah but no one is ever injured, let alone killed, from alcohol consumption. Alcohol consumption is very manly and Christian and American.

//

243 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 1:28:22pm

re: #73 CriticalDragon1177

Charles Johnson

This does not bode well for the future of the country. I hope the supreme court eventually reverses itself on this.

Not until Pres Hillary reverses its composition.

244 Mattand  Apr 2, 2014 1:28:28pm

re: #230 Killgore Trout

Liberals are the bigots because they don’t tolerate bigoted speech. Uh-huh.

I have to admit: watching you constantly post stuff to justify your Magic Balance Fairy worldview has been entertaining.

Don’t ever change. Mostly because if you actually took a stand on something, it’d give you a stroke.

245 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 2, 2014 1:29:06pm

Is this Russian Mickey Mouse vodka?

246 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 1:29:13pm

NO IT IS NOT, YOU STUPID FUCKS.

247 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:29:18pm

re: #244 Mattand

Liberals are the bigots because they don’t tolerate bigoted speech. Uh-huh.

I have to admit: watching you constantly post stuff to justify your Magic Balance Fairy worldview has been entertaining.

Don’t ever change. Mostly because if you actually took a stand on something, it’d give you a stroke.

That wasn’t gonna happen anyway.

248 Bulworth  Apr 2, 2014 1:29:24pm

re: #231 Dr. Matt

And while we’re on the subject, guns don’t kill people, people kill people.

//

249 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 1:29:38pm

Bitcoins are free speech too

250 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:30:04pm

re: #249 Aqua Obama

Bitcoins are free speech too

But apparently not very much of it.

251 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 1:30:12pm

re: #244 Mattand

Liberals are the bigots because they don’t tolerate bigoted speech. Uh-huh.

I have to admit: watching you constantly post stuff to justify your Magic Balance Fairy worldview has been entertaining.

Don’t ever change. Mostly because if you actually took a stand on something, it’d give you a stroke.

Thanks for the thoughtful critique.

252 Dr. Matt  Apr 2, 2014 1:30:48pm

Hollywood should remake ‘Logan’s Run’ insteading of remaking Robocop, Dredd, King Kong (twice), The Thing (twice), IT, etc.

253 b.d.  Apr 2, 2014 1:30:50pm

re: #249 Aqua Obama

Bitcoins are free speech too

Getting close to it. :)

1 Bitcoin = 437.7 USD if you can find a buyer.

254 Dr. Matt  Apr 2, 2014 1:31:21pm

re: #242 Bulworth

Yeah but no one is ever injured, let alone killed, from alcohol consumption. Alcohol consumption is very manly and Christian and American.

//

Jesus drank wine!

255 Mattand  Apr 2, 2014 1:32:06pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Thanks for the thoughtful critique.

No problem. The first step to beating a problem is admitting it first.

256 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 1:32:08pm

Do you know what is just like slavery, stupid right-wing fucks?
Forcing people to work for little or no pay, and not allowing them the free time to find a better job.
You know, like the people who make all that stuff you buy at Walmart and Hobby Lobby.
Also too: Target & iStuff & just about anything that is sold in a store in the U.S.

257 Bulworth  Apr 2, 2014 1:32:15pm

re: #246 Pie-onist Overlord

Let me guess, someone else not happy with the ACA’s enrollment numbers?

258 Dr. Matt  Apr 2, 2014 1:32:42pm

re: #248 Bulworth

And while we’re on the subject, guns don’t kill people, people kill people.

//

And toasters don’t make toast, people make toast.

259 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:32:48pm

re: #246 Pie-onist Overlord

NO IT IS NOT, YOU STUPID FUCKS.

[Embedded content]

Stupidity is the new stupidity.

260 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 1:33:05pm

re: #252 Dr. Matt

Hollywood should remake ‘Logan’s Run’ insteading of remaking Robocop, Dredd, King Kong (twice), The Thing (twice), IT, etc.

I’m done with comic book movies. I’ll give Walking Dead a pass but I have no interest in the latest reboot of major superheroes.

261 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 1:33:10pm

re: #245 NJDhockeyfan

Is this Russian Mickey Mouse vodka?

[Embedded content]

MM in Russia…

Image: mickeymouse-secondseason-a-580x333.jpg

262 William Barnett-Lewis  Apr 2, 2014 1:33:41pm

re: #239 Kragar

Its the burning remains of LotR, Star Wars, Star Trek, and the Godfather.


Dredd Wins March Movie Madness, Named Favorite Film on Amazon’s Facebook Page

Now that is an utter Whiskey Tango Foxtrot..

263 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 2, 2014 1:33:49pm

re: #252 Dr. Matt

Hollywood should remake ‘Logan’s Run’ insteading of remaking Robocop, Dredd, King Kong (twice), The Thing (twice), IT, etc.

Hollywood should make come up with new ideas instead of remaking old classics.

264 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:34:33pm

re: #256 Pie-onist Overlord

Do you know what is just like slavery, stupid right-wing fucks?
Forcing people to work for little or no pay, and not allowing them the free time to find a better job.
You know, like the people who make all that stuff you buy at Walmart and Hobby Lobby.
Also too: Target & iStuff & just about anything that is sold in a store in the U.S.

If they want more money they should get better jobs!, because there are all those $75k/year jobs for people with no experience in the field, just going begging.

265 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 1:35:32pm

The plot for the next Judge Dredd movie:

Image: burger5.JPG

266 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 2, 2014 1:35:33pm

re: #261 Justanotherhuman

MM in Russia…

Image: mickeymouse-secondseason-a-580x333.jpg

Is that Mickey Tatar Mouse hearing the Russians knocking on his door?

267 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 1:36:28pm

re: #213 Ojoe

It is eeking along.

Y’all need more millionaires.

268 steve_davis  Apr 2, 2014 1:36:39pm

re: #5 Skip Intro

Already someone is preparing a case to challenge the obviously unconstitutional limit of $3.6 million, and when it reaches this court they’ll agree.

Any doubts left over how the Hobby Lobby case is going to turn out?

My guess is that a Warren Buffett or George Soros, both of whom are old and presumably not worrying about simply giving their kids enormous inheritances, will simply prove a point by donating 5 million dollars to each Democratic representative and senator, and perhaps writing a billion-dollar personal check to whoever the democratic presidential candidate turns out to be.

269 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 1:37:07pm

re: #267 Decatur Deb

Y’all need more millionaires.

Then maybe a policy or two.

270 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 1:37:12pm

White House on Supreme Court campaign finance decision: We are still reviewing the details of the decision but the Solicitor General defended the constitutionality of the law so we are disappointed in the decision that was announced today - @NBCNews
end of alert

271 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 1:37:25pm

re: #252 Dr. Matt

Hollywood should remake ‘Logan’s Run’ insteading of remaking Robocop, Dredd, King Kong (twice), The Thing (twice), IT, etc.

They didn’t remake a Dredd movie.

They finally made a Dredd movie despite some assclowns fucking up the source material years earlier.

272 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:38:01pm

re: #256 Pie-onist Overlord

Do you know what is just like slavery, stupid right-wing fucks?
Forcing people to work for little or no pay, and not allowing them the free time to find a better job.
You know, like the people who make all that stuff you buy at Walmart and Hobby Lobby.
Also too: Target & iStuff & just about anything that is sold in a store in the U.S.

And while we’re at it, this is what you get when you have a group of people to whom “Hitler was a Nazi. Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore vegetarians are Nazis” makes sense.

273 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 1:38:55pm

re: #263 NJDhockeyfan

Hollywood should make come up with new ideas instead of remaking old classics.

At least the plan to remake Forbidden Planet seems to have folded.

274 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 1:39:55pm

re: #263 NJDhockeyfan

Hollywood should make come up with new ideas instead of remaking old classics.

I’m still surprised no one has ever gotten the rights too and made a movie based on _Rifles for Watie_.

en.wikipedia.org

Published in 1957, won a Newbery Medal and essentially a very good YA novel set in the US Civil War.

275 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 1:39:57pm

re: #269 wrenchwench

Then maybe a policy or two.

“You provide the millionaires, they’ll provide the policy.”

276 Stanley Sea  Apr 2, 2014 1:40:37pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Thanks for the thoughtful critique.

Weird.

Btw Charles, I love the graphic used on this post.

277 Eventual Carrion  Apr 2, 2014 1:40:57pm

re: #127 Feline Fearless Leader

Shouldn’t Thomas have the Coke sponsorship?

And Long John (sic) Silvers

278 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 1:41:00pm

re: #265 Aqua Obama

The plot for the next Judge Dredd movie:

Image: burger5.JPG

I’ll have you know they actually had a reasoning why the Jolly Green Giant was there.

The Cursed Earth (Judge Dredd story)

279 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 1:41:17pm

re: #275 Decatur Deb

“You provide the millionaires, they’ll provide the policy.”

Tell it to Justice Roberts.

280 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:41:28pm

re: #275 Decatur Deb

“You provide the millionaires, they’ll provide the policy.”

“But people will think…”

What I tell them to think!

281 A Mom Anon  Apr 2, 2014 1:41:36pm

re: #226 GeneJockey

That’s the first thing my son learned to cook too. We have it regularly. Sigh. I wish my son could find a girlfriend. I’m starting to worry, he’s 20 and never been on a date. I don’t look forward to breakups and that sort of thing, but I wish he could find a girl who really could look at who he is, he’s such a good hearted person. His experiences in high school were horrible, I’m not sure how long it will take him to recover.

More sighs….

282 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 1:43:24pm

re: #273 Decatur Deb

At least the plan to remake Forbidden Planet seems to have folded.

i blame monsters from the id

283 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 2, 2014 1:43:34pm

re: #273 Decatur Deb

At least the plan to remake Forbidden Planet seems to have folded.

That’s good. I hope they leave alone other classics like Gone With The Wind, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz, Ben-Hur, Fantasia, Easy Rider…

284 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 1:44:35pm

re: #264 GeneJockey

If they want more money they should get better jobs!, because there are all those $75k/year jobs for people with no experience in the field, just going begging.

I just got this email:

Hi Full Time Position for Website Developer in Monterey CA Max Salary $75k

How much does it cost to live in Monterey? Isn’t that one of those places where you can make 6 figures and still be homeless?

285 Aunty Entity Dragon  Apr 2, 2014 1:45:31pm

re: #15 Mike Lamb

Agreed. I had to review it twice to make sure I read it correctly.

Same here. This is one of the most disgustingly cynical decisions…and utterances…I have ever seen.

I am tempted to fucking call it game, set and match at this point. The 1% have bought the country and are calling in the rent on the rest of us.

286 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 1:45:43pm

re: #284 Pie-onist Overlord

I just got this email:

Hi Full Time Position for Website Developer in Monterey CA Max Salary $75k

How much does it cost to live in Monterey? Isn’t that one of those places where you can make 6 figures and still be homeless?

But it’s a homeless with a beautiful view !!!

287 klys  Apr 2, 2014 1:46:02pm

re: #244 Mattand

Liberals are the bigots because they don’t tolerate bigoted speech. Uh-huh.

I have to admit: watching you constantly post stuff to justify your Magic Balance Fairy worldview has been entertaining.

Don’t ever change. Mostly because if you actually took a stand on something, it’d give you a stroke.

It’s like watching CNN. As much as you’d like to ignore it, you keep running into it everywhere, and you can’t get away from the sloppily researched stories that have nothing to do with the real world but are presented as groundbreaking.

288 sattv4u2  Apr 2, 2014 1:46:16pm

re: #284 Pie-onist Overlord

I just got this email:

Hi Full Time Position for Website Developer in Monterey CA Max Salary $75k

How much does it cost to live in Monterey? Isn’t that one of those places where you can make 6 figures and still be homeless?

zillow.com

289 jaunte  Apr 2, 2014 1:46:47pm

re: #284 Pie-onist Overlord

75k goes farther if you work in Monterey but live in Prunedale.

290 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 1:47:28pm

re: #285 Aunty Entity Dragon

Same here. This is one of the most disgustingly cynical decisions…and utterances…I have ever seen.

I am tempted to fucking call it game, set and match at this point. The 1% have bought the country and are calling in the rent on the rest of us.

Work on your cynic-fu. This only canonizes what has been reality since Dupont made cannonballs for the Continental Army.

291 Aunty Entity Dragon  Apr 2, 2014 1:47:33pm

re: #26 Kragar

The only way conservatives can win elections is to buy the results, and these assholes want to make sure they can do it.

Buy the results and make sure the brown skinned people never get close to a polling place. Senator Bilbo would be proud.

292 klys  Apr 2, 2014 1:48:00pm

re: #284 Pie-onist Overlord

I just got this email:

Hi Full Time Position for Website Developer in Monterey CA Max Salary $75k

How much does it cost to live in Monterey? Isn’t that one of those places where you can make 6 figures and still be homeless?

It’s a little farther than most people would consider for a commute to Silicon Valley, so you can avoid some of the bubble that comes with that.

However, it’s still CA. So. Rent is still going to be stupidly high compared to most of the rest of the country.

293 Targetpractice  Apr 2, 2014 1:48:20pm

re: #271 Kragar

They didn’t remake a Dredd movie.

They finally made a Dredd movie despite some assclowns fucking up the source material years earlier.

Just like they didn’t remake Robocop, they slapped the name on a generic action flick.

294 Feline Fearless Leader  Apr 2, 2014 1:48:30pm

re: #283 NJDhockeyfan

That’s good. I hope they leave alone other classics like Gone With The Wind, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz, Ben-Hur, Fantasia, Easy Rider…

Disney keeps revamping Fantasia on their own.

en.wikipedia.org

For the Wizard of Oz, there’s a lot more to Baum’s books than just what the 1939 movie covers.

295 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 1:48:59pm

Tell me this bastard isn’t connected at the hip to the Koch Bros with their common mining interests.

Meet Shaun McCutcheon, the Republican Activist Trying to Make History at the Supreme Court

thedailybeast.com

“He is a dedicated Republican from suburban Birmingham, Alabama who is the CEO of Coalmont Electrical Development, an engineering firm that specializes in the mining industry. According to Bill Armistead, the chairman of the Alabama Republican Party, McCutcheon is a sincere and dedicated Republican activist. Armistead told The Daily Beast that Shaun is “a great guy … who really loves supporting conservative candidates, getting conservatives elected to office.” He’s so dedicated that Armistead couldn’t recall ever discussing “extracurricular activities” including a subject as important in his home state as the Alabama-Auburn rivalry.

“…But there is a little more to the story than that and McCutcheon is more than a simple Alabama party activist. According to Huffington Post, McCutcheon first broached the idea of his lawsuit at the 2012 Conservative Political Action Conference. He has since partnered with the RNC in his lawsuit and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell has joined in the suit as an outside party and will have his own set of lawyers arguing on his behalf before the Court.”

296 Targetpractice  Apr 2, 2014 1:50:24pm

re: #294 Feline Fearless Leader

Disney keeps revamping Fantasia on their own.

en.wikipedia.org

For the Wizard of Oz, there’s a lot more to Baum’s books than just what the 1939 movie covers.

Baum was writing books til the day he died. He actually tried to stop writing them earlier in life, but found out that nobody wanted to read his other books, so went back to writing about Oz.

297 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:50:29pm

re: #281 A Mom Anon

That’s the first thing my son learned to cook too. We have it regularly. Sigh. I wish my son could find a girlfriend. I’m starting to worry, he’s 20 and never been on a date. I don’t look forward to breakups and that sort of thing, but I wish he could find a girl who really could look at who he is, he’s such a good hearted person. His experiences in high school were horrible, I’m not sure how long it will take him to recover.

More sighs….

The older boy is 22, and she’s his first girlfriend.

I worry about everything, but he keeps surprising me, mostly because he doesn’t tell me a lot of what’s going on in his head, or his life. A few weeks ago, the counselor at Job Train, where he’s taking 6-hour/day, 5 day/week course in IT tech, called to gush about what a wonderful job he’d done, giving a speech to 60-80 people, he was funny, he had everyone laughing, it was really well done, he seemed really at ease, etc.

He’d told us NOTHING about this, and more to the point - HE HAD NOT PREPARED. He was out sick, and the day he got back he found out he was supposed to do the speech.

When he and this young woman decided to start dating (they’d been strictly friends before), he didn’t tell me ANYTHING for days.

298 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 1:50:48pm

re: #288 sattv4u2

zillow.com

All the foreclosures are lots with no houses on them.

The houses are about 500K for 1000SF

Thanks I’ll stay in Detroit in my 5-bedroom colonial that you can get for 100K

299 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:51:45pm

re: #284 Pie-onist Overlord

I just got this email:

How much does it cost to live in Monterey? Isn’t that one of those places where you can make 6 figures and still be homeless?

Pretty expensive, though not as expensive as the SF Peninsula. $75k is really not that much here.

300 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 1:52:49pm

re: #284 Pie-onist Overlord

I just got this email:

How much does it cost to live in Monterey? Isn’t that one of those places where you can make 6 figures and still be homeless?

i lived in monterey in the mid 1990s

actually, it’s a working fishing town and not a very flashy place - lots of humble dwellings. the rich people in that area live nearby in carmel

the california coast is generally not a cheap place to live, but relative to that monterey is not at the top end

301 sattv4u2  Apr 2, 2014 1:53:35pm

re: #298 Pie-onist Overlord

All the foreclosures are lots with no houses on them.

The houses are about 500K for 1000SF

Thanks I’ll stay in Detroit in my 5-bedroom colonial that you can get for 100K

No

1st on the list
2 beds, 1.5 baths, 1,811 sqft
Built in 1954

2nd on the list
4 beds, 2.5 baths, 2,625 sqft
Built in 1980

302 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 2, 2014 1:53:39pm
303 klys  Apr 2, 2014 1:54:45pm

re: #281 A Mom Anon

That’s the first thing my son learned to cook too. We have it regularly. Sigh. I wish my son could find a girlfriend. I’m starting to worry, he’s 20 and never been on a date. I don’t look forward to breakups and that sort of thing, but I wish he could find a girl who really could look at who he is, he’s such a good hearted person. His experiences in high school were horrible, I’m not sure how long it will take him to recover.

More sighs….

I didn’t date until I was 19. My sisters are 24 and 20 and neither have dated either.

Which honestly is not great news for my mother’s hopes for grandchildren, but not my problem.

304 sattv4u2  Apr 2, 2014 1:54:47pm

re: #302 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

EGGscellant

EGGciting

((I think I’ll have an omelet for dinner)

305 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 1:54:55pm

re: #285 Aunty Entity Dragon

Same here. This is one of the most disgustingly cynical decisions…and utterances…I have ever seen.

I am tempted to fucking call it game, set and match at this point. The 1% have bought the country and are calling in the rent on the rest of us.

There have been cases in the past where normal people in the US have taken back some of the power from the plutocracy (e.g., passage of the income tax amendment, direct election of Senators, New Deal reforms, Great society programs).

However, since 1980 it’s pretty much been a long defeat on all economic issues.

306 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 1:56:10pm

re: #305 EPR-radar

There have been cases in the past where normal people in the US have taken back some of the power from the plutocracy (e.g., passage of the income tax amendment, direct election of Senators, New Deal reforms, Great society programs).

However, since 1980 it’s pretty much been a long defeat on all economic issues.

It doesn’t help that 1/3 of the population are playing the Anthony Zerbe role from ‘Cool Hand Luke’.

307 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 1:56:47pm

I really need to finish cleaning my dining room.

I took all the tchotchkas out of the china cabinet, now I just have to wipe them all down & put them back.

308 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 1:57:16pm

re: #305 EPR-radar

There have been cases in the past where normal people in the US have taken back some of the power from the plutocracy (e.g., passage of the income tax amendment, direct election of Senators, New Deal reforms, Great society programs).

However, since 1980 it’s pretty much been a long defeat on all economic issues.

And most of that progress is a rebound from the kind of disaster (war, depression) that you don’t want to see.

309 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 1:57:22pm

re: #303 klys

I didn’t date until I was 19. My sisters are 24 and 20 and neither have dated either.

Which honestly is not great news for my mother’s hopes for grandchildren, but not my problem.

Not only will my parents never be grandparents, I’ll be the last of my name in the US. It’s a bit depressing, but I’m really not suited to being a parent.

310 Aqua Obama  Apr 2, 2014 1:57:28pm

I wonder if the SC’s amorphous definition of currency applies to property assets.

311 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 1:58:20pm

HURR HURR FAT PEOPLE CANTS BE TEH POORS!!!!! THEY HAVE FRIDGES & MICROWAVES!!!!!!

312 klys  Apr 2, 2014 1:58:47pm

re: #309 EPR-radar

Not only will my parents never be grandparents, I’ll be the last of my name in the US. It’s a bit depressing, but I’m really not suited to being a parent.

I kept my maiden name when we got married to avoid seeing it go (Dad was the only son, and only had daughters) but it is a little silly since I won’t be passing it on.

Still meant something to me though.

I prefer furry children that you can leave behind when traveling.

313 sattv4u2  Apr 2, 2014 1:59:10pm

re: #308 Decatur Deb

And most of that progress is a rebound from the kind of disaster (war, depression) that you don’t want to see.

Oh I dunno

Post Zombie Apocalypse should be roaring times !!!!
/

314 klys  Apr 2, 2014 1:59:23pm

Anyway, grocery store take two.

315 sattv4u2  Apr 2, 2014 2:00:07pm

re: #314 klys

Anyway, grocery store take two.

the one I go to gets mad when I take things!

Best to bring some cash

316 Iwouldprefernotto  Apr 2, 2014 2:01:05pm

re: #309 EPR-radar

Not only will my parents never be grandparents, I’ll be the last of my name in the US. It’s a bit depressing, but I’m really not suited to being a parent.

Doesn’t stop most people.

317 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 2:01:13pm

re: #308 Decatur Deb

And most of that progress is a rebound from the kind of disaster (war, depression) that you don’t want to see.

I’ve long thought that Obama’s timing in getting elected as the economy was going into the shitter was terribly unfortunate. FDR had 3 years of the failure of Cosnervative economics to point to, but Obama came in as the whole thing was sliding over the edge. The Stimulus bill managed to stop it, but because it didn’t hit bottom and stick there for a while, a lot of people don’t think the Stimulus worked at all.

318 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 2:01:35pm

re: #309 EPR-radar

Not only will my parents never be grandparents, I’ll be the last of my name in the US. It’s a bit depressing, but I’m really not suited to being a parent.

Since the 80s, no one on my dad’s side of the family tree ( various aunts, uncles and cousins) has given birth to a boy. Unless my brother has some kids and gets a boy, he and I will likely be the last men in North America to have our family name.

319 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 2:05:16pm

re: #311 Pie-onist Overlord

HURR HURR FAT PEOPLE CANTS BE TEH POORS!!!!! THEY HAVE FRIDGES & MICROWAVES!!!!!!

[Embedded content]

Our poor people just aren’t suffering enough, it seems. Lucky we have Paul Ryan on the case!
//

320 A Mom Anon  Apr 2, 2014 2:06:31pm

re: #312 klys

Yeah, I keep thinking he surprises me all the time and someday he’s going to find a great girl and all will be well. But Asperger’s Syndrome makes things a little more complicated. Whoever she is, she’s either going to have to be patient and really, really like him for who he is, or be on the spectrum herself so she “gets” him. Or both. I just worry, he’s been treated like shit by his peers so often that when he’s home he has given up on trying to make “neurotypical” friends. It’s hard.

321 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 2:10:32pm

re: #319 GeneJockey

Our poor people just aren’t suffering enough, it seems. Lucky we have Paul Ryan on the case!
//

Per Gallup, Alabamans are the population least able to afford health care. Watched the overweight ratio in a waiting room yesterday. It was obvious we are going to get creamed when the resulting diabetes, heart conditions, and other penalties come due.

gallup.com

322 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 2, 2014 2:11:02pm

re: #304 sattv4u2

EGGscellant

EGGciting

((I think I’ll have an omelet for dinner)

EGGzactly

A bacon, egg, and cheese sounds good right now.

323 sattv4u2  Apr 2, 2014 2:11:44pm

re: #321 Decatur Deb

Per Gallup, Alabamans are the population least able to afford health care. Watched the overweight ratio in a waiting room yesterday. It was obvious we are going to get creamed when the resulting diabetes, heart conditions, and other penalties come due.

gallup.com

Quit eatin’ all that deep fried road kill!!
/

324 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 2:12:09pm

re: #321 Decatur Deb

Per Gallup, Alabamans are the population least able to afford health care. Watched the overweight ratio in a waiting room yesterday. It was obvious we are going to get creamed when the resulting diabetes, heart conditions, and other penalties come due.

gallup.com

No doubt the Alabama GOP were also backslapping and high-fiving at all they’d done to prevent those folks getting health insurance, too.

325 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 2:13:01pm

...

326 sattv4u2  Apr 2, 2014 2:17:17pm

re: #289 jaunte

75k goes farther if you work in Monterey but live in Prunedale.

Or Salinas

327 The War TARDIS  Apr 2, 2014 2:22:14pm

re: #320 A Mom Anon

I know have about 10 people, including the local imam, out looking. Plan on staying in the community for marriage, and with most of my friends being Pakistani, I think it is likely to be someone who is also Pakistani.

Still feeling frustrated, and it does stress me. But at the same time, i realize the only thing that will knock out this stressor is finding that someone. I have put it down, only for it to come back too many times for any other conclusion.

I will likely double - barrel the last name.

328 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 2:22:34pm

re: #289 jaunte

75k goes farther if you work in Monterey but live in Prunedale.

in the mid 90s i lived in monterey on less than 45k

rented a one bedroom with a view of the bay for < $1000/mo

329 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 2:25:17pm

re: #309 EPR-radar

Not only will my parents never be grandparents, I’ll be the last of my name in the US. It’s a bit depressing, but I’m really not suited to being a parent.

Why do you think that is? The birth rate in the US is already down to below 2 kids per family, which I don’t have a problem with. One of my sons has no kids and the other has 2. Each of the 2 has 1 each and I don’t know if they will, or can (in my granddaughter’s case) have any more. But I don’t think it really matters what the reasons are.

I used to wonder how polluted we would get back in the early 70s if emerging countries started having larger middle classes of people and consumption went up. Well, I think we’re seeing that with climate change, and we’re probably also seeing a brake on reproduction, as well, although it remains to be seen whether or not it will have the kind of effect that is being predicted, of not having enough young people contributing to programs to support the elderly. I don’t think so. People will simply have to prepare better and develop other means of taking care of people. We’re social beings and a family is only one way of expressing that sociability. It is when we stop being “social” at all, that we stop needing one another, that we are in big trouble.

In spite of today’s ruling, and the trend to widening the income gap in every western country, not just the US, people will either rise up against it, or suffer continually for even fewer crumbs from the tables of the wealthy. I hope the former, because it’s not the higher earners who are having the kids, it’s those not making a decent income. And that spells misery. Unfortunately, the miserable don’t always do what is in their best interests, as we know.

330 danarchy  Apr 2, 2014 2:26:14pm

re: #283 NJDhockeyfan

That’s good. I hope they leave alone other classics like Gone With The Wind, Vertigo, The Wizard of Oz, Ben-Hur, Fantasia, Easy Rider…

Hate to burst your bubble, but MGM starts shooting on a Ben-Hur remake this spring.

331 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 2:26:31pm

Let’s try that again…

re: #320 A Mom Anon

You know, it’s funny. I’d say that most of my siblings show at least some sign of being on the Spectrum, but they all found someone. I think Dad probably is, too, and he found Mom.

One observation about neurotypical friends vs Aspergerian friends - the older boy briefly went to a small private school which seemed to be just what he needed, and there he became friends with the other Aspergerian in the group. Once he left that school, though, he quickly lost interest in spending any time with that kid. Fortunately for the kid, he and the younger boy became friends, and remain so to this day, 6 or more years later.

The older boy found the kid’s “Aspie-ness” irritating. I remembered that my wife had read “The Incident of the Dog in the Night”, loved it because it seemed like it gave a look inside the Aspergerian mind. She wanted our son to read it, figured he’d really relate.

He couldn’t stand it. “He goes on and on about stuff that doesn’t matter!”

The younger boy, OTOH, though he’s much more neurotypical, had been raised with an Aspergerian brother, so the other kid seemed pretty normal to him.

Maybe it’s the same with girls?

332 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 2, 2014 2:28:23pm
333 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 2:30:02pm

re: #332 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

I am the walrus…kookookiechoo.

334 NJDhockeyfan  Apr 2, 2014 2:31:27pm

re: #330 danarchy

Hate to burst your bubble, but MGM starts shooting on a Ben-Hur remake this spring.

Figures. What’s next, It’s a Wonderful Life?

335 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 2:40:02pm

re: #334 NJDhockeyfan

Figures. What’s next, It’s a Wonderful Life?

Yeah, but darker - George Bailey succeeds in his suicide, then gets to watch how much it screws everyone else’s lives up.

Uncle Billy finally goes nuts and get put away, where he gets electroshock and has to deal with Nurse Ratchet.

Mary takes to drinking at Martini’s, marries an abusive drunk, kills him one night when he threatens the kids and ends up getting The Chair.

Zuzu grows up and joins the Manson Family.

336 sattv4u2  Apr 2, 2014 2:42:04pm

re: #335 GeneJockey

Yeah, but darker - George Bailey succeeds in his suicide, then gets to watch how much it screws everyone else’s lives up.

Uncle Billy finally goes nuts and get put away, where he gets electroshock and has to deal with Nurse Ratchet.

Mary takes to drinking at Martini’s, marries an abusive drunk, kills him one night when he threatens the kids and ends up getting The Chair.

Zuzu grows up and joins the Manson Family.

And Clarence, tempted by earthly vices, ends up owning a crack house and marries a hooker

337 Skip Intro  Apr 2, 2014 2:43:48pm

re: #284 Pie-onist Overlord

I just got this email:

How much does it cost to live in Monterey? Isn’t that one of those places where you can make 6 figures and still be homeless?

A typical house built in the 1950s with no major upgrades will run you at least a million, possibly lots more depending on the location.

You could always live in Salinas. Or Sand City.

338 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 2:44:09pm

re: #336 sattv4u2

And Clarence, tempted by earthly vices, ends up owning a crack house and marries a hooker

Over time, knowing that every little bell he hears means some other angel got his wings leads him to sneaking into churches and stealing the clappers out of their bells.

339 EPR-radar  Apr 2, 2014 2:44:38pm

re: #335 GeneJockey

While Potter invests his $8,000 windfall wisely, ending up as landlord for all the serfs in the county.

340 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 2:45:18pm

re: #284 Pie-onist Overlord

I just got this email:

How much does it cost to live in Monterey? Isn’t that one of those places where you can make 6 figures and still be homeless?

I pay some of my intermediate level QA engineers 75k. Okay…glassdoor just confirmed - Web Developers in Salinas get about 68k.

There are still nice (smaller) homes for around $500k in Monterey. It’s actually a bit of an old-school community. Not a lot going on there except the acquarium, and it’s foggy a lot of the time. Still, there’s some pretty coastline to be enjoyed in the area, though it’s far away from most business centers.

341 Eventual Carrion  Apr 2, 2014 2:50:11pm

re: #192 Aqua Obama

Finally, now he can marry Sarah Palin.

She has been peeping on him from her front porch.

342 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 2:51:10pm

re: #336 sattv4u2

And Clarence, tempted by earthly vices, ends up owning a crack house and marries a hooker

Don’t give Jim Carrey any ideas.

343 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 2:52:05pm

re: #340 darthstar

I pay some of my intermediate level QA engineers 75k. Okay…glassdoor just confirmed - Web Developers in Salinas get about 68k.

There are still nice (smaller) homes for around $500k in Monterey. It’s actually a bit of an old-school community. Not a lot going on there except the acquarium, and it’s foggy a lot of the time. Still, there’s some pretty coastline to be enjoyed in the area, though it’s far away from most business centers.

this sounds like about market rate to me, since i know for a fact that small 2 bedroom houses are going in nice neighborhoods in the oakland hills for around $500-600k

it was always wonderful to be able to drive down to the beach somewhere in pacific grove to eat my lunch. also, sitting in my living room watching the bay on a foggy day, listening to the sea lions go URP URP URP

i just had to re-read cannery row while i lived there, since i lived just up the hill. of course i went down the hill and matched to locations in the book to the actual places most of which are still there…

344 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 2:54:51pm

Former CIA Official: No Politics in Benghazi Memo

abcnews.go.com

“The CIA’s former deputy director said Wednesday he deleted references to terrorism warnings from widely disputed talking points on the deadly 2012 Benghazi attack to avoid the spy agency’s gloating at the expense of the State Department.

“Mike Morell faced more than three hours of questioning from the House Intelligence committee in a rare open session that examined who changed the talking points —and why — in the politically-charged aftermath of the deadly Sept. 11 assault on a U.S. diplomatic mission in Libya.

“Four Americans, including U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens, were killed in two separate attacks over a chaotic period of several hours. Multiple independent and congressional investigations have largely faulted the State Department for inadequate security at the mission.” More

OK, ABC, who headed those “multiple independent and congressional investigations”? You don’t even mention “Republicans” until the 8th paragraph.

345 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 2:58:24pm

re: #339 EPR-radar

While Potter invests his $8,000 windfall wisely, ending up as landlord for all the serfs in the county.

Harry Bailey, flying home because he hears his brother is in trouble, gets the news about George’s suicide while still in the air. Distracted during landing, he comes in too hot, slides off the end of the runway into a tree, breaking his back. He ends up paralyzed, gets addicted to painkillers, and loses his job and his house. Ruth leaves him.

346 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 2:59:27pm

re: #336 sattv4u2

And Clarence, tempted by earthly vices, ends up owning a crack house and marries a hooker

eventually he strangles in the drawstrings on his old fashioned underwear

347 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 3:01:29pm

What the fuck? Again?

348 William Barnett-Lewis  Apr 2, 2014 3:01:36pm

re: #335 GeneJockey

Yeah, but darker - George Bailey succeeds in his suicide, then gets to watch how much it screws everyone else’s lives up.

Uncle Billy finally goes nuts and get put away, where he gets electroshock and has to deal with Nurse Ratchet.

Mary takes to drinking at Martini’s, marries an abusive drunk, kills him one night when he threatens the kids and ends up getting The Chair.

Zuzu grows up and joins the Manson Family.

What does it say about me that I’d rather watch _that_ movie than suffer through the original again?

349 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 3:01:55pm

Shooting reported at Ft. Hood, TX.

kcentv.com

Shooter at large.

350 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 3:02:19pm
351 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:02:51pm

re: #346 dog philosopher

eventually he strangles in the drawstrings on his old fashioned underwear

His hooker wife finds his autographed copy of “Tom Sawyer”, sells it for $100,000 and gets out of the sex trade.

352 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 3:04:16pm

re: #349 Justanotherhuman

Shooting reported at Ft. Hood, TX.

kcentv.com

Shooter at large.

353 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:04:25pm

re: #348 William Barnett-Lewis

What does it say about me that I’d rather watch _that_ movie than suffer through the original again?

Not me. I’m a sucker for that one. I watch it every year. That, and the 1951 Christmas Carol with Alistair Sim.

The rest of the family are sick of it, though, so I watch it alone.

354 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:05:53pm

re: #342 Killgore Trout

Don’t give Jim Carrey any ideas.

Working Title : “It’s A Wonderful Lie”

355 Bubblehead II  Apr 2, 2014 3:06:29pm

Afternoon again Lizards. We are now up to 4 eggs in the nest..

356 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 3:07:36pm

re: #344 Justanotherhuman

“The CIA’s former deputy director said Wednesday he deleted references to terrorism warnings from widely disputed talking points on the deadly 2012 Benghazi attack to avoid the spy agency’s gloating at the expense of the State Department.

Doesn’t that statement contradict the title of the article? Saving face for the State Dept by changing the talking points would be a political move.

357 GlutenFreeJesus  Apr 2, 2014 3:09:46pm

Look at it this way. Rich Republicans throwing their hard inherited money away on Neanderthal bigots. Hopefully that taps out their finances so they can see first hand how the rest of the 99% of us live.

One can dream.

358 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:09:59pm

re: #356 Killgore Trout

Doesn’t that statement contradict the title of the article? Saving face for the State Dept by changing the talking points would be a political move.

Depends on whether or not you redefine ‘political’ so broadly as to change its original meaning.

359 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 3:10:46pm
360 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:12:13pm

re: #359 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Kinda like how Teabaggers were the first to call themselves Teabaggers, till somebody pointed out the crude alternate meaning of the term. Then suddenly calling them by the name they’d given themselves was insulting and demeaning.

361 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 3:12:19pm

re: #357 GlutenFreeJesus

Look at it this way. Rich Republicans throwing their hard inherited money away on Neanderthal bigots. Hopefully that taps out their finances so they can see first hand how the rest of the 99% of us live.

One can dream.

arianna huffington’s ex husband reportedly spent 26 million of his 27 million dollar inheritance failing to win a senate seat in california

362 klys  Apr 2, 2014 3:12:24pm

re: #320 A Mom Anon

Yeah, I keep thinking he surprises me all the time and someday he’s going to find a great girl and all will be well. But Asperger’s Syndrome makes things a little more complicated. Whoever she is, she’s either going to have to be patient and really, really like him for who he is, or be on the spectrum herself so she “gets” him. Or both. I just worry, he’s been treated like shit by his peers so often that when he’s home he has given up on trying to make “neurotypical” friends. It’s hard.

I wouldn’t give up on it. One of my college acquaintances is on the spectrum; not sure if the wedding has already happened, but he definitely found someone. He was well out of college at that point too.

363 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 3:12:56pm

re: #358 GeneJockey

Depends on whether or not you redefine ‘political’ so broadly as to change its original meaning.

It does look like inter-agency politics was a factor but he clarified that he wasn’t ordered to alter the talking points by the White House….

Morell said he removed references to the warnings based on previous CIA analysis. Otherwise, he said, the talking points would have been a “way for CIA to pound its chest and say ‘we warned,’ laying all the blame on the State Department.”

“These allegations accuse me of taking these actions for the political benefit of President Obama and then Secretary of State Clinton. These allegations are false,” Morell said.

364 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:14:37pm

re: #363 Killgore Trout

It does look like inter-agency politics was a factor but he clarified that he wasn’t ordered to alter the talking points by the White House….

“Interagency politics” is precisely what he was trying to avoid the appearance of. The CIA pointing at State and saying, “We warned you!” is political. NOT doing so is polite.

365 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 3:15:09pm

re: #356 Killgore Trout

Doesn’t that statement contradict the title of the article? Saving face for the State Dept by changing the talking points would be a political move.

That’s agency politics, not national (party) politics.

366 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:15:53pm

re: #361 dog philosopher

arianna huffington’s ex husband reportedly spent 26 million of his 27 million dollar inheritance failing to win a senate seat in california

Imagine how pissed Sheldon Adelson must have been - “But the House is supposed to always win!!”

367 thedopefishlives  Apr 2, 2014 3:17:35pm

Evening Lizardim.

368 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 3:17:57pm

re: #364 GeneJockey

“Interagency politics” is precisely what he was trying to avoid the appearance of. The CIA pointing at State and saying, “We warned you!” is political. NOT doing so is polite.

I might use the word diplomatic instead of polite.

369 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 3:18:15pm

re: #366 GeneJockey

Imagine how pissed Sheldon Adelson must have been - “But the House is supposed to always win!!”

At the time, someone showed that Adelson was bringing in cash at about the same rate that a series of RW buffoons was burning through his 150M.

370 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 3:18:30pm

re: #365 Decatur Deb

That’s agency politics, not national (party) politics.

Agreed.

371 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 3:18:37pm

Gray Toyota, white male, first description of possible suspect at Ft. Hood.

372 Floral Giraffe  Apr 2, 2014 3:19:48pm

re: #3 Kragar

You know, as F’d up as our political & judicial systems are….
they are still better than the rest of the world.

373 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:20:27pm

re: #368 Killgore Trout

I might use the word diplomatic instead of polite.

Yeah, but using that WRT the State Department is a little too ‘on the nose’, don’t you think?
///

374 thedopefishlives  Apr 2, 2014 3:20:59pm

re: #371 Justanotherhuman

Gray Toyota, white male, first description of possible suspect at Ft. Hood.

Wait, there’s another one?

375 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 3:22:05pm

Me at 9:30 this morning: “This is a major issue that we need to alert people to and get fixed. BTW, I have an appt at 3:30 so I’ll need to leave around 2:30 to get to it.”

Silence ensued, where I fart around trying to get people on the phone to discuss the issue but can’t get anyone to return my calls for hours on end.

My boss at 2:25pm “OMG! This is big. Just write up a brief summary detailed everything done since Friday which will be going to senior management and make yourself available to these 6 other teams so we can fix the issue ASAP!”

And people wonder why violence occurs in the workplace.

376 Eclectic Cyborg  Apr 2, 2014 3:22:26pm

re: #374 thedopefishlives

Wait, there’s another one?

Unfortunately yes. Not much info so far.

377 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:22:34pm

re: #369 Decatur Deb

At the time, someone showed that Adelson was bringing in cash at about the same rate that a series of RW buffoons was burning through his 150M.

So the only way it made sense is if he expected to make THAT MUCH MORE if his candidates won.

378 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 3:23:15pm

re: #374 thedopefishlives

Wait, there’s another one?

Just saying what I heard on KCEN-TV. It’s not confirmed or positive ID’d yet.

379 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:23:49pm

re: #375 Kragar

Me at 9:30 this morning: “This is a major issue that we need to alert people to and get fixed. BTW, I have an appt at 3:30 so I’ll need to leave around 2:30 to get to it.”

Silence ensued, where I fart around trying to get people on the phone to discuss the issue but can’t get anyone to return my calls for hours on end.

My boss at 2:25pm “OMG! This is big. Just write up a brief summary detailed everything done since Friday which will be going to senior management and make yourself available to these 6 other teams so we can fix the issue ASAP!”

And people wonder why violence occurs in the workplace.

These are the times when I think, “Lack of preparation on your part does not create an emergency on my part”, but really, it does.

380 Floral Giraffe  Apr 2, 2014 3:24:23pm

re: #157 Pie-onist Overlord

Sounds like the now banned Reginald Perrin!

381 Eventual Carrion  Apr 2, 2014 3:25:15pm

re: #282 dog philosopher

i blame monsters from the id

They were definitely in Doom.

382 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 3:25:17pm

Fort Hood officials will only confirm an active situation. There is no official word on injuries, location, victims or suspect

383 thedopefishlives  Apr 2, 2014 3:25:25pm

re: #375 Kragar

Me at 9:30 this morning: “This is a major issue that we need to alert people to and get fixed. BTW, I have an appt at 3:30 so I’ll need to leave around 2:30 to get to it.”

Silence ensued, where I fart around trying to get people on the phone to discuss the issue but can’t get anyone to return my calls for hours on end.

My boss at 2:25pm “OMG! This is big. Just write up a brief summary detailed everything done since Friday which will be going to senior management and make yourself available to these 6 other teams so we can fix the issue ASAP!”

And people wonder why violence occurs in the workplace.

As a contractor, it is well within my rights to say, “You can take that “emergency” and stuff it where the sun doesn’t shine. I sent you fair warning that I had to leave and you took no action.”

384 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 3:26:16pm

re: #379 GeneJockey

These are the times when I think, “Lack of preparation on your part does not create an emergency on my part”, but really, it does.

Yup, because then it would be “Well, we were all ready to go at 2:30, but Kragar didn’t make himself available” and then its my ass who gets labeled as why the shit didn’t get fixed.

385 lawhawk  Apr 2, 2014 3:26:43pm

And again. Fort Hood on lockdown due to active shooter situation. Central Texas College is also shuttered as precaution.

kdhnews.com

At least three injured according to this report.

386 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 3:26:58pm

re: #382 dog philosopher

Fort Hood officials will only confirm an active situation. There is no official word on injuries, location, victims or suspect

But we’ll still get reports like this:

387 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 3:26:59pm

re: #360 GeneJockey

Kinda like how Teabaggers were the first to call themselves Teabaggers, till somebody pointed out the crude alternate meaning of the term. Then suddenly calling them by the name they’d given themselves was insulting and demeaning.

They’ll claim credit for Obamacare by November.

388 Amory Blaine  Apr 2, 2014 3:27:01pm

Good thing the GOP has been destroying collective bargaining coast to coast. Just in time for the ruling.

389 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 3:28:19pm

re: #386 Justanotherhuman

But we’ll still get reports like this:

[Embedded content]

390 Targetpractice  Apr 2, 2014 3:28:58pm

I don’t know why I just looked at the Freeper response to the latest shooting. I really don’t. Beginning to think I’m developing masochistic tendencies.

391 lawhawk  Apr 2, 2014 3:30:17pm

KCEN news is reporting the following:

We have reports that there are several injuries from this shooting. There is at least one patient being transported to the hospital.

We are also getting reports of victims in the Battle Simulation Center on 65th and Warehouse.

The suspect is still at large. The shooter was said to be in building 33026 which is the Medical Brigade Building.

Reports have said that he was driving a gray Toyota, described as a white male in an Army Combat Uniform, and carrying a .45 handgun.

392 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 3:30:45pm

re: #377 GeneJockey

So the only way it made sense is if he expected to make THAT MUCH MORE if his candidates won.

IIRC there was a foreign corrupt practices investigation he wanted to go away.

393 klys  Apr 2, 2014 3:30:50pm

re: #390 Targetpractice

I don’t know why I just looked at the Freeper response to the latest shooting. I really don’t. Beginning to think I’m developing masochistic tendencies.

So are we pinning this one on the terrorists or the liberals?

/////

394 Targetpractice  Apr 2, 2014 3:30:59pm

re: #393 klys

So are we pinning this one on the terrorists or the liberals?

/////

Yes.

395 thedopefishlives  Apr 2, 2014 3:31:35pm

re: #393 klys

So are we pinning this one on the terrorists or the liberals?

/////

Liberals are the new terrorists, didn’t you get the memo?

396 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:33:14pm

re: #395 thedopefishlives

Liberals are the new terrorists, didn’t you get the memo?

Eco-idiots spray-painting SUVs = Terrorism.

Right Wing gun nuts killing cops, Sikhs, etc = Lone Wolves.

397 Targetpractice  Apr 2, 2014 3:33:39pm

re: #391 lawhawk

KCEN news is reporting the following:

Not being as familiar with the modern Army as others, I’m wondering if a “Battle Simulation Center” would be a place where lots of weapons with live ammo would be available?

398 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:34:13pm

re: #395 thedopefishlives

Liberals are the new terrorists, didn’t you get the memo?

Was that the memo that said that Same Sex Marriage will inevitably lead to Sharia, because shut up?

399 klys  Apr 2, 2014 3:34:38pm

re: #395 thedopefishlives

Liberals are the new terrorists, didn’t you get the memo?

Oh right, I forgot we hate free speech and guns, and fail to economically support the people who want to restrict our rights.

My bad.

400 thedopefishlives  Apr 2, 2014 3:34:41pm

re: #398 GeneJockey

Was that the memo that said that Same Sex Marriage will inevitably lead to Sharia, because shut up?

There’s a big pile of them waiting on your desk. Get to reading, lizardoid.

401 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 3:34:56pm

Am I the only person who thinks “shelter in place” sounds stupid?

What if I’m in an open area? Am I not suppose to seek cover so I’m not so, ah, exposed to a shooter?

402 William Barnett-Lewis  Apr 2, 2014 3:35:18pm

re: #397 Targetpractice

Not being as familiar with the modern Army as others, I’m wondering if a “Battle Simulation Center” would be a place where lots of weapons with live ammo would be available?

No. Computer based sims of the battlefield.

403 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:36:05pm

re: #400 thedopefishlives

There’s a big pile of them waiting on your desk. Get to reading, lizardoid.

Can I just do the last month? Or do I have to start with “Vegetarianism = Nazism” and work forwards?

404 klys  Apr 2, 2014 3:36:23pm

re: #400 thedopefishlives

There’s a big pile of them waiting on your desk. Get to reading, lizardoid.

Here, have some more enjoyable reading.

405 thedopefishlives  Apr 2, 2014 3:36:38pm

re: #403 GeneJockey

Can I just do the last month? Or do I have to start with “Vegetarianism = Nazism” and work forwards?

They’ve been rather repetitive. I think we can bend the rules just this on—

406 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 3:37:08pm

See what I mean about being out in the open?

407 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 3:37:23pm

re: #397 Targetpractice

Not being as familiar with the modern Army as others, I’m wondering if a “Battle Simulation Center” would be a place where lots of weapons with live ammo would be available?

Or worse, lots of weapons with blanks, leaving a shooter with free range in the chaos of noise.

408 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:37:40pm

re: #404 klys

Here, have some more enjoyable reading.

“FORBIDDEN CATEGORY - Weapons”

409 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 3:38:12pm

re: #397 Targetpractice

Not being as familiar with the modern Army as others, I’m wondering if a “Battle Simulation Center” would be a place where lots of weapons with live ammo would be available?

Ours was a BIG video game.

410 Ryan King  Apr 2, 2014 3:39:16pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

What sayeth Prince Tu Quoque O’ the Kingdom of Diving Balance?

411 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 3:39:20pm

NRA Official Suffers Bout of Clarity:

Rifle & Pistol Assoc. President To Skip Donald Trump-Led Albany Pro-Gun Rally Over Extremist Fears

crooksandliars.com

412 Targetpractice  Apr 2, 2014 3:39:56pm

re: #402 William Barnett-Lewis

No. Computer based sims of the battlefield.

Ah, okay, makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

413 goddamnedfrank  Apr 2, 2014 3:41:54pm

Michelle Goldberg has a very interesting article detailing the history of online feminism and intersectionality. For uninitiated white guys like myself this maybe should be required reading inasmuch as it details a lot of the established “rules” that spawned the less understandable aspects of #CancelColbert.

Online, however, intersectionality is overwhelmingly about chastisement and rooting out individual sin. Partly, says Cooper, this comes from academic feminism, steeped as it is in a postmodern culture of critique that emphasizes the power relations embedded in language. “We actually have come to believe that how we talk about things is the best indicator of our politics,” she notes. An elaborate series of norms and rules has evolved out of that belief, generally unknown to the uninitiated, who are nevertheless hammered if they unwittingly violate them. Often, these rules began as useful insights into the way rhetorical power works but, says Cross, “have metamorphosed into something much more rigid and inflexible.” One such rule is a prohibition on what’s called “tone policing.” An insight into the way marginalized people are punished for their anger has turned into an imperative “that you can never question the efficacy of anger, especially when voiced by a person from a marginalized background.”

Similarly, there’s a norm that intention doesn’t matter—indeed, if you offend someone and then try to explain that you were misunderstood, this is seen as compounding the original injury. Again, there’s a significant insight here: people often behave in bigoted ways without meaning to, and their benign intention doesn’t make the prejudice less painful for those subjected to it. However, “that became a rule where you say intentions never matter; there is no added value to understanding the intentions of the speaker,” Cross says.

414 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 3:43:12pm

US Army Secretary John McHugh leaves Capitol, returns to Pentagon to be briefed on Fort Hood shooting - @ChadPergram
end of alert

3m
White House: President Obama, in Chicago, has been informed of reports of situation in Fort Hood - @SteveBruskCNN

415 Amory Blaine  Apr 2, 2014 3:43:58pm

re: #335 GeneJockey

Yeah, but darker - George Bailey succeeds in his suicide, then gets to watch how much it screws everyone else’s lives up.

Uncle Billy finally goes nuts and get put away, where he gets electroshock and has to deal with Nurse Ratchet.

Mary takes to drinking at Martini’s, marries an abusive drunk, kills him one night when he threatens the kids and ends up getting The Chair.

Zuzu grows up and joins the Manson Family.

Well Mr Potter is now the good guy (thank you SCOTUS). All the dirty moochers in town will have to give the respect he demands.

416 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 3:46:49pm
417 Amory Blaine  Apr 2, 2014 3:49:03pm

re: #416 wrenchwench

That’s like kindergarten level advice that even the most clueless journalist should understand.

418 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 3:50:12pm

re: #417 Amory Blaine

That’s like kindergarten level advice that even the most clueless journalist should understand.

They’re all so smart, they probably skipped kindergarten.

419 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 3:54:41pm
420 jaunte  Apr 2, 2014 3:56:48pm
421 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:57:37pm

re: #416 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

Everyone has to have a dream.

422 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 3:57:47pm

re: #375 Kragar

Me at 9:30 this morning: “This is a major issue that we need to alert people to and get fixed. BTW, I have an appt at 3:30 so I’ll need to leave around 2:30 to get to it.”

Silence ensued, where I fart around trying to get people on the phone to discuss the issue but can’t get anyone to return my calls for hours on end.

My boss at 2:25pm “OMG! This is big. Just write up a brief summary detailed everything done since Friday which will be going to senior management and make yourself available to these 6 other teams so we can fix the issue ASAP!”

And people wonder why violence occurs in the workplace.

You work for the federal government or one of its contractors, IIRC.

423 Charles Johnson  Apr 2, 2014 3:58:37pm

Woohoo - I finally have a good start on a responsive mobile/smartphone design for LGF. That’s how I spent my afternoon.

I haven’t made this public yet, still lots of tweaking to do. But LGF is about to get much more useable on an iPhone (or any kind of smartphone really).

424 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 3:59:25pm

re: #415 Amory Blaine

Well Mr Potter is now the good guy (thank you SCOTUS). All the dirty moochers in town will have to give the respect he demands.

He’s a Job Creator, after all.
//

You can just see the wingnuts nodding approvingly as he says, “What does that get you? A discontented, lazy rabble instead of a thrifty working class!”

425 jaunte  Apr 2, 2014 3:59:53pm

For those who didn’t want to click on the Pat Dollard tweet, here’s a screenshot:

426 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 4:00:25pm

re: #423 Charles Johnson

Woohoo - I finally have a good start on a responsive mobile/smartphone design for LGF. That’s how I spent my afternoon.

I haven’t made this public yet, still lots of tweaking to do. But LGF is about to get much more useable on an iPhone (or any kind of smartphone really).

Great. Now I’ll no longer have an excuse to not post from the crapper!
///

427 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 4:01:25pm

re: #422 Pie-onist Overlord

You work for the federal government or one of its contractors, IIRC.

Correct

428 Amory Blaine  Apr 2, 2014 4:01:40pm

re: #420 jaunte

He’s just starting an adult conversation.

429 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 4:02:02pm
430 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 4:02:15pm

re: #425 jaunte

For those who didn’t want to click on the Pat Dollard tweet, here’s a screenshot:

[Embedded image]

Holy Shit! Talk about just waiting for an excuse!

Hey, if it’s a RW gunman, do we get to start shooting THEM?
////// (but not humorously)

431 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 4:02:54pm

re: #413 goddamnedfrank

Michelle Goldberg has a very interesting article detailing the history of online feminism and intersectionality. For uninitiated white guys like myself this maybe should be required reading inasmuch as it details a lot of the established “rules” that spawned the less understandable aspects of #CancelColbert.

Thanks for that. It explains, partially at least, why I haven’t participated in online feminism, having read at several sites.

432 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 4:03:18pm

re: #425 jaunte

if there is even

i think the subject has provided enough material for a diagnosis

433 jaunte  Apr 2, 2014 4:04:46pm

re: #432 dog philosopher

I bet Dollard would claim he’s opposed to collective punishment.

434 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 4:05:32pm

re: #429 Pie-onist Overlord

I bet the shooter is fucking Amish

gen jc is a funny guy

435 Targetpractice  Apr 2, 2014 4:05:33pm

re: #423 Charles Johnson

Woohoo - I finally have a good start on a responsive mobile/smartphone design for LGF. That’s how I spent my afternoon.

I haven’t made this public yet, still lots of tweaking to do. But LGF is about to get much more useable on an iPhone (or any kind of smartphone really).

Oh great, now the NSA will be able to monitor my iPod too!

////

436 Bubblehead II  Apr 2, 2014 4:06:00pm

re: #423 Charles Johnson

Woohoo - I finally have a good start on a responsive mobile/smartphone design for LGF. That’s how I spent my afternoon.

I haven’t made this public yet, still lots of tweaking to do. But LGF is about to get much more useable on an iPhone (or any kind of smartphone really).

How about the Vizio VTAB1008 running Android 3.2.1 HTK55?

437 kirkspencer  Apr 2, 2014 4:07:17pm

re: #375 Kragar

If you’re not doing it already, start documenting. When you give this sort of warning, especially those that include “we need to alert others”, log it.

Sooner or later wheels are going to come off. When they do fingers will get pointed. Having this log gives you a chance that the fingers won’t point at you — and more important that they may point the right way.

438 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 4:08:10pm

re: #413 goddamnedfrank

Michelle Goldberg has a very interesting article detailing the history of online feminism and intersectionality. For uninitiated white guys like myself this maybe should be required reading inasmuch as it details a lot of the established “rules” that spawned the less understandable aspects of #CancelColbert.

Also see: #CancelColbert and the Return of the Anti-Liberal Left

The Nation has some excellent articles on the Colbert thing. I should check them more often.

439 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 4:09:47pm

re: #413 goddamnedfrank

Michelle Goldberg has a very interesting article detailing the history of online feminism and intersectionality. For uninitiated white guys like myself this maybe should be required reading inasmuch as it details a lot of the established “rules” that spawned the less understandable aspects of #CancelColbert.

If I understand it correctly, it boils down to resentment is always valid, and white men can’t satirize bigoted white men.

440 Gus  Apr 2, 2014 4:10:12pm

re: #425 jaunte

For those who didn’t want to click on the Pat Dollard tweet, here’s a screenshot:

[Embedded image]

This screenshot tells more of the story.

441 Gus  Apr 2, 2014 4:11:20pm
442 Amory Blaine  Apr 2, 2014 4:11:51pm

Yeah talent agent, superstar. Right behind you, ready to push you off the cliff.

443 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 4:12:07pm

re: #440 Gus

[Embedded image]

This screenshot tells more of the story.

I’m pretty sure that’s incitement, I suspect there’s legal trouble in his future.

444 Kragar  Apr 2, 2014 4:12:42pm

re: #437 kirkspencer

If you’re not doing it already, start documenting. When you give this sort of warning, especially those that include “we need to alert others”, log it.

Sooner or later wheels are going to come off. When they do fingers will get pointed. Having this log gives you a chance that the fingers won’t point at you — and more important that they may point the right way.

Oh, I know. My email to management detailed all that. It still didn’t get my ass out of the door on time when I need to leave. Had to reschedule that shit to tomorrow morning.

445 Gus  Apr 2, 2014 4:12:57pm
446 Killgore Trout  Apr 2, 2014 4:13:09pm

re: #441 Gus

[Embedded content]

He’s a wingnut so it’s guaranteed to get plenty of attention.

447 Gus  Apr 2, 2014 4:13:24pm
448 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 4:13:30pm

re: #438 Killgore Trout

Actually, she’s terribly misrepresenting Marcuse there, which is even obvious from his quote. She has some good basic points, though. But namedropping Marcuse like that is kinda silly.

449 Gus  Apr 2, 2014 4:13:54pm

re: #446 Killgore Trout

He’s a wingnut so it’s guaranteed to get plenty of attention.

Oh well, it’s highly deserved so there is that.

450 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 4:16:11pm

re: #439 GeneJockey

If I understand it correctly, it boils down to resentment is always valid, and white men can’t satirize bigoted white men.

Well, no, you can’t have a real “feminist” movement if your movement only attracts white academics and their students.

And Goldberg never even mentions the working class women, both minority and white, who are left out of all of it.

451 Pie-onist Overlord  Apr 2, 2014 4:16:37pm

HURR HURR NO MOAR GUN FREE ZONES!!!!!!!

452 JustMark  Apr 2, 2014 4:17:45pm

re: #423 Charles Johnson

Woohoo - I finally have a good start on a responsive mobile/smartphone design for LGF. That’s how I spent my afternoon.

I haven’t made this public yet, still lots of tweaking to do. But LGF is about to get much more useable on an iPhone (or any kind of smartphone really).

Suhweeeet!

453 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 4:17:48pm
454 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 4:18:31pm

re: #447 Gus

He’s a Brietbart editor…of course.

455 b.d.  Apr 2, 2014 4:20:01pm

re: #454 darthstar

He’s a Brietbart editor…of course.

I believe he writes for their Tolerance section.

456 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 4:20:08pm

I wish these murder-suicide assholes would reverse the order of their activities.

457 goddamnedfrank  Apr 2, 2014 4:20:10pm

re: #439 GeneJockey

If I understand it correctly, it boils down to resentment is always valid, and white men can’t satirize bigoted white men.

The basic problem I see is that from an outside perspective so many of these rules are massively counter-intuitive. They may have roots in valuable insights, but they don’t just run counter to conventional wisdom, they’ve become dogma to the point where they’re actually justifying behavior based on “facts” antithetical to reality.

Objectively anger can be a useful emotion, but to go from there to supporting unfocused rage for its own sake just validates people for harming themselves physically. Cool anger is often instructive, an asset, generic rage just raises blood pressure and damages organs. Maybe it is patronizing to tell a woman of color that certain expressions are hurting her, but the alternative of condoning counter productivity at best and self harm at worst hardly seems like a more laudable position. From the Goldberg article:

There are also rules, elaborated by white feminists, on how other white feminists should talk to women of color. For example, after Kendall’s #solidarityisforwhitewomen hashtag erupted last fall, Sarah Milstein, co-author of a guide to Twitter, published a piece on the Huffington Post titled “5 Ways White Feminists Can Address Our Own Racism.” At one point, Milstein argued that if a person of color says something that makes you uncomfortable, “assume your discomfort is telling you something about you, not about the other person.” After Rule No. 3, “Look for ways that you are racist, rather than ways to prove you’re not,” she confesses to her own racial crimes, including being “awkwardly too friendly” toward black people at parties.

At this point I’m like, maybe consider chilling the fuck out.

But the expectation that feminists should always be ready to berate themselves for even the most minor transgressions—like being too friendly at a party—creates an environment of perpetual psychodrama, particularly when coupled with the refusal to ever question the expression of an oppressed person’s anger.

“I actually think there’s a subset of black women who really do get off on white women being prostrate,” Cooper says. “It’s about feeling disempowered and always feeling at the mercy of white authority, and wanting to feel like for once the things you’re saying are being given credibility and authority. And to have white folks do that is powerful, particularly in a world where white women often deploy power against black women in ways that are really problematic.”

Preening displays of white feminist abjection, however, are not the same as respect. “What’s disgusting and disturbing to me is that I see some of the more intellectually dishonest arguments put forth by women of color being legitimized and performed by white feminists, who seem to be in some sort of competition to exhibit how intersectional they are,” says Jezebel founder Holmes, who is black. “There are these Olympian attempts on the part of white feminists to underscore and display their ally-ship in a way that feels gross and dishonest and, yes, patronizing.”

This entire situation went FUBAR the second what was being said took a back seat to who was saying it. What’s ironic is that structural racism and misogyny is real, being white and male is definitely an advantage, and this is a reaction to the old order where things were reversed, where the opinions of white males mattered most. But you can’t fix this kind of structural problem by simplistically turning it on its head. You need to build a new, stable and defensible structure from the ground up, and that should be obvious from even the most cursory examination.

458 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 4:20:33pm

re: #425 jaunte

For those who didn’t want to click on the Pat Dollard tweet, here’s a screenshot:

[Embedded image]

It’s like you read my mind. Only now i want to click on it so I can report it. Has he deleted it yet?

459 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 4:26:19pm

re: #457 goddamnedfrank

The basic problem I see is that from an outside perspective so many of these rules are massively counter-intuitive. They may have roots in valuable insights, but they don’t just run counter to conventional wisdom, they’ve become dogma to the point where they’re actually justifying behavior based on “facts” antithetical to reality.

Objectively anger can be a useful emotion, but to go from there to supporting unfocused rage for its own sake just validates people for harming themselves physically. Cool anger is often instructive, an asset, generic rage just raises blood pressure and damages organs. Maybe it is patronizing to tell a woman of color that certain expressions are hurting her, but the alternative of condoning counter productivity at best and self harm at worst hardly seems like a more laudable position. From the

At this point I’m like, maybe consider chilling the fuck out.

This entire situation went FUBAR the second what was being said took a back seat to who was saying it. What’s ironic is that structural racism and misogyny is real, being white and male is definitely an advantage, and this is a reaction to the old order where things were reversed, where the opinions of white males mattered most. But you can’t fix this kind of structural problem by simplistically turning it on its head. You need to build a new, stable and defensible structure from the ground up, and that should be obvious from even the most cursory examination.

What about when using the word “vagina” is considered politically “incorrect”? Martha Plimpton was savaged for it. But, as she said,

“When Plimpton insisted that she would continue to say “vagina,” her feed filled up with indignation. “So you’re really committed to doubling down on using a term that you’ve been told many times is exclusionary & harmful?” asked one self-described intersectional feminist blogger.

“Plimpton takes intersectionality seriously—A Is For is hosting a series of discussions on the subject this year—but she was flummoxed by this purist, arcane form. “I’m not going to stop using the word ‘vagina’ for anybody, whether it’s Glenn Beck or Mike Huckabee or somebody on Twitter who feels it creates a dysphoric response,” she tells me. “I can’t do that and still advocate for reproductive freedom. It’s just not a realistic thing to expect.”

460 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 4:28:35pm

I had two separate customers in here just now. One had a very annoying personality, including questioning my judgment as a mechanic, the other had a lot of patchouli all over her. I’d choose the latter over the former, except the patchouli lingers after the customer leaves.

Fortunately, I don’t have to choose. I get both!

461 JustMark  Apr 2, 2014 4:28:43pm

OT, but can someone enlighten me about Common Core and why it’s got the RWNJs all a twitter?

462 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 4:28:58pm

intersectional

does this word cover people who feel that it is okay to be condescending or even downright rude to me because i am not gay or non-white?

463 goddamnedfrank  Apr 2, 2014 4:29:13pm

Some WTF from the last page of Goldberg’s article:

In a revolution-eats-its-own irony, some online feminists have even deemed the word “vagina” problematic. In January, the actress and activist Martha Plimpton tweeted about a benefit for Texas abortion funds called “A Night of a Thousand Vaginas,” sponsored by A Is For, a reproductive rights organization she’s involved with. Plimpton was surprised when some offended Internet feminists urged people to stay away, arguing that emphasizing “vaginas” hurts trans men who don’t want their reproductive organs coded as female. “Given the constant genital policing, you can’t expect trans folks to feel included by an event title focused on a policed, binary genital,” tweeted @DrJaneChi, an abortion and transgender health provider. (She mentioned “internal genitals” as an alternative.) When Plimpton insisted that she would continue to say “vagina,” her feed filled up with indignation. “So you’re really committed to doubling down on using a term that you’ve been told many times is exclusionary & harmful?” asked one self-described intersectional feminist blogger.

My suggestion, “girlish junk,” trademark pending.

464 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 4:30:37pm

re: #459 Justanotherhuman

I’m still mad at the feminists who denied the existence of PMS.

465 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 4:31:38pm

re: #461 JustMark

OT, but can someone enlighten me about Common Core and why it’s got the RWNJs all a twitter?

Common Core wants to teach kids how to think. This would dry up the rwnj base in one generation.

466 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 4:32:08pm

a policed, binary genital

either psychotic rambling or modern poetry

467 William Barnett-Lewis  Apr 2, 2014 4:32:45pm

re: #461 JustMark

OT, but can someone enlighten me about Common Core and why it’s got the RWNJs all a twitter?

Objective standards that try to teach children how to think rather than give rote answers. Utterly anathema to the far right indoctrination machine. So far I’ve only see positives from them here in Wisconsin - the Every Child Left Behind testing scam is a different issue…

468 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 4:33:34pm

re: #464 wrenchwench

I’m still mad at the feminists who denied the existence of PMS.

LOLwhut? When was this?

469 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 4:34:06pm

re: #457 goddamnedfrank

The ultimate weirdness of this I heard from a friend of mine, who earnestly said that he didn’t consider himself a feminist because he didn’t know what it was like to be a woman, therefore he could just be an ally.

I said, “I’m a feminist.”

It kind of reminds me of the difference between Frank Zappa and Occupy. Frank Zappa, when dealing with serious things, put on a suit and tie. He got to speak in front of the Senate.

The system is what it is, it can’t be wished away. White feminists have a lot of power, and excluding them excludes that power. The argument gets confused between the moral and the practical. Of course it’s an extra burden for minority feminists to have to explain intersectionality to white women, of course they don’t have a moral duty to do it, of course it can get tiresome as fuck. But practically, the right thing to do involves making common cause, whether it’s with white feminists or white men, because everyone suffers from the patriarchal society, including men, and to change requires getting buy-in from everyone.

470 thedopefishlives  Apr 2, 2014 4:34:06pm

re: #464 wrenchwench

I’m still mad at the feminists who denied the existence of PMS.

Dafuq?

471 Charles Johnson  Apr 2, 2014 4:34:19pm

re: #434 dog philosopher

gen jc is a funny guy

Until you disagree with him on something. Then he turns into a gigantic asshole.

472 thedopefishlives  Apr 2, 2014 4:34:55pm

re: #471 Charles Johnson

Until you disagree with him on something. Then he turns into a gigantic asshole.

Seems to be the case with so many people these days. I’m glad you’re not like that, at least.

473 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 4:36:35pm

re: #468 Justanotherhuman

LOLwhut? When was this?

In the 80’s so no links. I remember them, though…. It was going to be the end of progress for women if any difference from men was admitted. Especially if that difference meant women were affected by hormones (as though men are not).

474 darthstar  Apr 2, 2014 4:39:41pm

Okay…fucker’s dead. And apparently white. Bad apple excuse time.

475 Dr. Matt  Apr 2, 2014 4:40:19pm

Has Alex Jones Greenwald chimed in yet on the Ft. Hood shooting?

476 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 4:40:30pm

re: #465 wrenchwench

Common Core wants to teach kids how to think. This would dry up the rwnj base in one generation.

Funny thing is, my wife, who devours books on education, especially nonconformist ones, views Common Core with a jaundiced eye. I think it’s from seeing fad after fad after fad in the education business, none of which seem to really move the needle much.

477 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 4:41:24pm

re: #474 darthstar

Okay…fucker’s dead. And apparently white. Bad apple excuse time.

“Lone wolf… Nobody could have predicted… If only everybody else had had guns…”

479 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 4:43:36pm

re: #469 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Somebody please define ‘intersectionality’ for me. I see it being batted around like a ping pong ball but I don’t know what it means.

480 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 4:46:02pm

re: #466 dog philosopher

a policed, binary genital

either psychotic rambling or modern poetry

You might (or might not) want to read this. It’s been going on for some time.

giagia.co.uk

I was a pretty radical feminist 40 yrs ago, so I’ll just say there’s a lot of bullshit being stirred around out there. Still it didn’t stop me from loving my sons and having relationships w/men, so even what’s believed theoretically doesn’t always wind up in practice, esp in one’s personal life. : )

481 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 4:46:08pm

re: #471 Charles Johnson

Until you disagree with him on something. Then he turns into a gigantic asshole.

“Don’t make me angry. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.”

482 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 4:48:28pm

re: #479 GeneJockey

Somebody please define ‘intersectionality’ for me. I see it being batted around like a ping pong ball but I don’t know what it means.

The completely valid concept that different statuses intersect. A black woman has different issues than a white woman, not just the sum of woman + Black but an intersection between them. For example since white women, on average, have access to more education, capital, connections, etc. than black women, they’re more represented in academic feminism, more represented in journalistic feminism, more represented in political feminism. That’s intersectionality, and if you don’t acknowledge it, you run the risk of excluding—and demoralizing—those who have multiple minority statuses. If you take it too far, then no white feminist can say to a black feminist, “Declaring white feminists the enemy is a mistake”. Like any concept, it needs perspective.

483 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 4:49:36pm

re: #473 wrenchwench

In the 80’s so no links. I remember them, though…. It was going to be the end of progress for women if any difference from men was admitted. Especially if that difference meant women were affected by hormones (as though men are not).

Wait—you’re treading dangerously close to “biotruth” that got me in a bit of trouble this morning.

484 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 4:51:38pm

re: #482 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The completely valid concept that different statuses intersect. A black woman has different issues than a white woman, not just the sum of woman + Black but an intersection between them. For example since white women, on average, have access to more education, capital, connections, etc. than black women, they’re more represented in academic feminism, more represented in journalistic feminism, more represented in political feminism. That’s intersectionality, and if you don’t acknowledge it, you run the risk of excluding—and demoralizing—those who have multiple minority statuses. If you take it too far, then no white feminist can say to a black feminist, “Declaring white feminists the enemy is a mistake”. Like any concept, it needs perspective.

Thank you. Struggling with the penultimate sentence, though.

485 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 4:52:00pm

re: #483 Justanotherhuman

Wait—you’re treading dangerously close to “biotruth” that got me in a bit of trouble this morning.

It didn’t get you in trouble, and what she’s saying is actually a counterargument to biotruths.

486 klys  Apr 2, 2014 4:53:23pm

re: #484 GeneJockey

Thank you. Struggling with the penultimate sentence, though.

That’s because it’s a crazy stupid concept, much like what online Twitter feminism has turned into.

I am a feminist. The number of blogs and/or Twitters I am willing to read on the concept is very close to zero.

487 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 4:53:23pm

re: #480 Justanotherhuman

You might (or might not) want to read this. It’s been going on for some time.

giagia.co.uk

I was a pretty radical feminist 40 yrs ago, so I’ll just say there’s a lot of bullshit being stirred around out there. Still it didn’t stop me from loving my sons and having relationships w/men, so even what’s believed theoretically doesn’t always wind up in practice, esp in one’s personal life. : )

thinking about it, i was eventually able to decode what was intended by “policed, binary genitals”, or at least i think i did

‘binary’, clearly, refers to the fact that genitals are not always ‘binary’, that is, some people have ambiguous genitals that aren’t one thing or another

‘policed’, i take it, refers to the policing of ideas and categories by busybodies who think they know what is correct and incorrect, kind of like grammarians of social concepts and roles. the genital is considered in relation to a platonic ideal of genitals, and assigned a category

even so, the shorthand here has become so utterly jargonistic to be practically opaque and therefore less than useful for communication

488 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 4:54:31pm

re: #484 GeneJockey

Thank you. Struggling with the penultimate sentence, though.

By skewed and vigorous logic, you can follow the following path:

Since a white man can’t understand fully what it’s like to be a black woman, she shouldn’t criticize on anything that’s related to being a black woman when said by a black woman. Black women should police their own, both because white women don’t understand the issues fully and because it takes the conversation away from black women.

It is bad logic, because that sort of ultimate restraint is hella patronizing of black women.

489 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 4:58:25pm

re: #473 wrenchwench

In the 80’s so no links. I remember them, though…. It was going to be the end of progress for women if any difference from men was admitted. Especially if that difference meant women were affected by hormones (as though men are not).

When the oldest boy was little, my wife joined a playgroup. This was the early 1990s. It was all women like her - white, middle class, late 20s/early 30s, all taking time out from their careers for a few years to stay home with their kids. All raised on the feminism of the 1980s which said that little boys and little girls are the same and all the differences we see in them are imposed by us on them.

They all bought their little girls trucks, and their little boys dolls, and dressed them in non-gender-identified colors.

By the time they were two or so, the little girls were having their trucks at tea parties, and the little boys were using their dolls as guns or clubs. The girls were largely toilet trained and speaking in complete sentences. The boys were still in diapers, and grunting monosyllabic responses.

It was enlightening. We’re equal, not identical.

490 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 5:01:47pm

re: #489 GeneJockey

When the oldest boy was little, my wife joined a playgroup. This was the early 1990s. It was all women like her - white, middle class, late 20s/early 30s, all taking time out from their careers for a few years to stay home with their kids. All raised on the feminism of the 1980s which said that little boys and little girls are the same and all the differences we see in them are imposed by us on them.

They all bought their little girls trucks, and their little boys dolls, and dressed them in non-gender-identified colors.

By the time they were two or so, the little girls were having their trucks at tea parties, and the little boys were using their dolls as guns or clubs. The girls were largely toilet trained and speaking in complete sentences. The boys were still in diapers, and grunting monosyllabic responses.

It was enlightening. We’re equal, not identical.

I had a customer once tell me that there is no difference between men and women, and two minutes later she said male cats make better pets than female cats.

491 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 5:02:24pm

re: #490 wrenchwench

I had a customer once tell me that there is no difference between men and women, and two minutes later she said male cats make better pets than female cats.

‘Cause you can cut their balls off?

492 Justanotherhuman  Apr 2, 2014 5:02:49pm

All right, all you straight white guys—denounce yourselves! Thought I’d die laughing at this comment.

“I see that the social justice warriors are out in force already. Intersectional slacktivists, unite! We have nothing to lose but our cishet-privileged dudebro chains! To the tumblr barricades!!!!!!

Oh wait I just socio-ableist discriminated against those without internet access to tumblr or unable to use tumblr.

I denounce myself.

Oh wait I wrote my self-critique in proper American English, which is very imperial-colonialist of me. I am also a white hetero cis-male, which, by the rules of the Oppression Olympics, makes me unqualified to speak on any subject involving class, race, or gender.

I further denounce myself.”

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493 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 5:04:57pm

re: #489 GeneJockey

When the oldest boy was little, my wife joined a playgroup. This was the early 1990s. It was all women like her - white, middle class, late 20s/early 30s, all taking time out from their careers for a few years to stay home with their kids. All raised on the feminism of the 1980s which said that little boys and little girls are the same and all the differences we see in them are imposed by us on them.

They all bought their little girls trucks, and their little boys dolls, and dressed them in non-gender-identified colors.

By the time they were two or so, the little girls were having their trucks at tea parties, and the little boys were using their dolls as guns or clubs. The girls were largely toilet trained and speaking in complete sentences. The boys were still in diapers, and grunting monosyllabic responses.

It was enlightening. We’re equal, not identical.

Those results are not replciable across all cultures, though. We’re surrounded by cultural signals, you can’t isolate kids from them without getting real unethical. However, we can trivially see that gender roles are wildly different in other countries. Hell, even just violent play isn’t universal to all cultures. The part that is true is that women develop verbal dexterity quicker on average, and this gives them a greater ability—but not one used in all cultures—to resolve conflicts verbally and not physically.

Boys are not ‘naturally’ programmed to like violence. and girls aren’t naturally programmed to dislike it. It’s a cultural construct; all of gender is. There are extreme physical differences between a short, skinny guy and a tall, athletic guy than there are between that tall athletic guy and a tall athletic woman.

Not to mention that actual hormone levels—which is pretty much the only thing you can call ‘gendered’ in any physically real way—vary widely inside and between the genders, and with diet and other environmental factors.

For a great resource on this, I recommend “The Gendered Society Reader”. Not the textbook, the reader. Some really great essays in there.

494 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 5:06:44pm

re: #488 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

By skewed and vigorous logic, you can follow the following path:

Since a white man can’t understand fully what it’s like to be a black woman, she shouldn’t criticize on anything that’s related to being a black woman when said by a black woman. Black women should police their own, both because white women don’t understand the issues fully and because it takes the conversation away from black women.

It is bad logic, because that sort of ultimate restraint is hella patronizing of black women.

Thank you. It seems to reduce people to group identities in the quest to fight against group identities.

495 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 5:08:47pm

re: #494 GeneJockey

Thank you. It seems to reduce people to group identities in the quest to fight against group identities.

Intersectionality on its own isn’t the problem. It’s the misuse of it. White feminists really should keep it mind that they don’t understand the black perspective, and make sure to be inclusive, and not hold 100% white feminist seminars to fix the problems of women in the black community. But they don’t have to never, ever say anything about black women.

496 wrenchwench  Apr 2, 2014 5:08:54pm

re: #491 GeneJockey

‘Cause you can cut their balls off?

The wimmin cats had too keen of an interest in hunting, rather than hanging around with the humans. I don’t recall any discussion about fixed vs not. Since I try not to offend potential spenders, I avoid lots of potentially fascinating discussions.

I did kind of yell at the guy who kept claiming interest rates were sky-high because the Fed can print money, but I’m pretty sure he wasn’t planning to give any of his to me.

497 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 5:16:09pm

re: #493 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Those results are not replciable across all cultures, though. We’re surrounded by cultural signals, you can’t isolate kids from them without getting real unethical. However, we can trivially see that gender roles are wildly different in other countries. Hell, even just violent play isn’t universal to all cultures. The part that is true is that women develop verbal dexterity quicker on average, and this gives them a greater ability—but not one used in all cultures—to resolve conflicts verbally and not physically.

Boys are not ‘naturally’ programmed to like violence. and girls aren’t naturally programmed to dislike it. It’s a cultural construct; all of gender is. There are extreme physical differences between a short, skinny guy and a tall, athletic guy than there are between that tall athletic guy and a tall athletic woman.

Not to mention that actual hormone levels—which is pretty much the only thing you can call ‘gendered’ in any physically real way—vary widely inside and between the genders, and with diet and other environmental factors.

For a great resource on this, I recommend “The Gendered Society Reader”. Not the textbook, the reader. Some really great essays in there.

Cultures that developed completely isolated from each other still tend to have men as the warriors and hunters and women as the gatherers and caregivers. Sure there are exceptions, because the universe doesn’t give us the discrete categories we humans desire. But there’s a reason for that. The differences between men and women are not all cultural, nor are they all biological.

The problem with the nature/nurture debate is that it is, yet again, forcing a dichotomy onto a non-dichotomous set of phenomena.

498 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 5:25:51pm

re: #497 GeneJockey

Cultures that developed completely isolated from each other still tend to have men as the warriors and hunters and women as the gatherers and caregivers. Sure there are exceptions, because the universe doesn’t give us the discrete categories we humans desire. But there’s a reason for that. The differences between men and women are not all cultural, nor are they all biological.

The problem with the nature/nurture debate is that it is, yet again, forcing a dichotomy onto a non-dichotomous set of phenomena.

Seriously, dude, I have done the research, and I’m talking about stuff far beyond huntering and warrioring. There are civilizations that basically didn’t have warriors, didn’t have gatherers.

Obviously there are physical differences between men and women. There are physical differences, as I said, between short men and tall men, too. Usually hormonal differences. We don’t divide tall and short men into two different genders. I’m not saying there’s no difference between men and women, but there’s a difference between any two phenotypic groups. The idea that ‘gender’ is a super-important division that has discernable outputs is a cultural one.

Read the awesome essays in that book, they’re well-picked. Part 1, “Anatomy and destiny: Biological arguments about gender difference” has three great papers, including one by the awesome Sapolsky. In part 3, “Sugar and Spice But Not Always Nice? Gender Socialization and Its Impact oN Development and the Maintenance of Aggression in Adolescent Girls” explores how, with increased egalitarianism, comes increased aggression in women—as we stop socializing them against it.

All of part 4. “The Social Construction of Gender Relations” has two great essays, “Doing Gender” and “Doing Difference”, which show gender as an active thing that we constantly reaffirm through things we actually do, rather than simply something we recognize in others or that prompts us to do things.

Finally, the article “Dude, You’re A Fag: Adolescent Masculinity and the Fag Discourse” has nothing to do with this but helps to explain that phenomenon, and is cool and funny.

499 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 5:28:55pm

Obdi, please re-read and attempt to grok my last sentence.

500 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 5:35:27pm

re: #499 GeneJockey

Obdi, please re-read and attempt to grok my last sentence.

I read and understand it. I have no problem saying there’s a biological difference between, broadly, ‘men’ and ‘women’. There’s also a biological difference between short guys and tall guys, between guys with very high testosterone and guys with very low testosterone. But only one of these genetic differences do we crown ‘gender’. They let the little short dude go hunt with the big guys; the reason is not because he’s more physically fitted to that task than any of the women.

501 Decatur Deb  Apr 2, 2014 5:42:45pm

re: #459 Justanotherhuman

What about when using the word “vagina” is considered politically “incorrect”? Martha Plimpton was savaged for it. But, as she said,

“When Plimpton insisted that she would continue to say “vagina,” her feed filled up with indignation. “So you’re really committed to doubling down on using a term that you’ve been told many times is exclusionary & harmful?” asked one self-described intersectional feminist blogger.

“Plimpton takes intersectionality seriously—A Is For is hosting a series of discussions on the subject this year—but she was flummoxed by this purist, arcane form. “I’m not going to stop using the word ‘vagina’ for anybody, whether it’s Glenn Beck or Mike Huckabee or somebody on Twitter who feels it creates a dysphoric response,” she tells me. “I can’t do that and still advocate for reproductive freedom. It’s just not a realistic thing to expect.”

If your call to revolution includes the word “dysphoric”, you’re doin’ it wrong.

502 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 5:49:30pm

re: #500 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I read and understand it. I have no problem saying there’s a biological difference between, broadly, ‘men’ and ‘women’. There’s also a biological difference between short guys and tall guys, between guys with very high testosterone and guys with very low testosterone. But only one of these genetic differences do we crown ‘gender’.

Right. The second one we call ‘height’. The third one we call “low T”. Calling it ‘gender’ would make no sense.
///

Look, we observe differences in behavior by gender in most mammalian species, so I question the wisdom of denying they exist in humans. But to admit those differences exist does not mean we have to adhere to yet another unnatural dichotomy, that these characteristics all belong to men, all men, and not to women, and conversely these other characteristics belong to all women.

There are biologically-driven differences, and there are culturally driven differences, and there are big overlaps, looking at any spectrum you care to.

The thing is, again, that insisting that gender differences are ALL cultural is as ridiculously absolutist as insisting they’re ALL biological. And in any case, wide of the point.

503 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 5:53:07pm

re: #502 GeneJockey

Right. The second one we call ‘height’. The third one we call “low T”. Calling it ‘gender’ would make no sense.
///

.

But we don’t divide up roles because of that height.

The thing is, again, that insisting that gender differences are ALL cultural is as ridiculously absolutist as insisting they’re ALL biological. And in any case, wide of the point

You’re not what I’m saying. Gender is not a coherent biological term. It is only a cultural term. You can’t describe ‘gender’ biologically without falling into the same pits as you fall into with ‘race’, except in some very, very narrow areas of anatomy. Otherwise, you can’t constructively talk about biological attributes of a woman vs a man.

504 dog philosopher  Apr 2, 2014 5:53:43pm

“So you’re really committed to doubling down on using a term that you’ve been told many times is exclusionary & harmful?”

my interpretation of this is that vaginas can’t be mentioned because some people don’t have something that could be classified as either a vagina or a penis, therefore to mention one or the other is to impose an imperialism of ideal genitals

is that about the size of it dya think?

505 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 5:56:08pm

re: #503 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

But we don’t divide up roles because of that height.

You’re not what I’m saying. Gender is not a coherent biological term. It is only a cultural term. You can’t describe ‘gender’ biologically without falling into the same pits as you fall into with ‘race’, except in some very, very narrow areas of anatomy. Otherwise, you can’t constructively talk about biological attributes of a woman vs a man.

Sorry, but as speaking as a biologist, bullshit.

506 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 5:57:05pm

re: #505 GeneJockey

Sorry, but as speaking as a biologist, bullshit.

Okay. Define gender biologically, then.

507 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 5:58:24pm

Do animals have different genders, Obdi?

508 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 5:58:55pm

re: #507 GeneJockey

Do animals have different genders, Obdi?

No, animals do have sexes. Can you define gender biologically for me?

Edit: Some primates have genders, probably. Depends on your view of sentience.

509 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 5:59:53pm

Ah! I see. Semantic sophistry. No interest. Sorry.

510 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 6:02:09pm

re: #509 GeneJockey

Ah! I see. Semantic sophistry. No interest. Sorry.

It’s not at all semantics, and it baffles me that you think it is. Please, please read something on the topic of why gender and sex are definitely, definitely not the same thing.

We obviously don’t just divide up people by what sex they are; we don’t go around checking each other for genitalia or the right chromosomes.

511 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 6:04:13pm

To put it another way: If someone who is female-sexed appears to be male-gendered, they get treated as male-gendered. They are not, however, male-sexed.

512 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 6:04:14pm

Fuck it then. We saw behavioral differences between the different SEXES of our youngsters that appear to be biologically driven rather than culturally.

Happy?

513 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 6:05:46pm

re: #511 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

To put it another way: If someone who is female-sexed appears to be male-gendered, they get treated as male-gendered. They are not, however, male-sexed.

I struggle to see how this is in any way in conflict with anything I’ve posted.

514 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 6:08:02pm

re: #512 GeneJockey

Fuck it then. We saw behavioral differences between the different SEXES of our youngsters that appear to be biologically driven rather than culturally.

Happy?

That’s not true, though. If you socialize girls to be aggressive, they really are aggressive. This is demonstrably true, and several of the essays I’ve cited give actual examples. There are no studies that show what you’re claiming that don’t have massive observer bias or effect.

One of the interesting things is the assertion that male-female differences are because of relative strength, when for a long time in childhood, females are, on average, stronger than males. We switch who’s strongest on average, and as adults men tend to be, on average, stronger.

515 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 6:08:25pm

re: #513 GeneJockey

I struggle to see how this is in any way in conflict with anything I’ve posted.

Because that persons’ gender is male, but the sex is female.

516 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 6:11:25pm

re: #515 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Because that persons’ gender is male, but her sex is female.

You seem to be working very hard to disprove a point I never made.

There are biologically driven differences in behavior between male humans on average and female humans on average. There are culturally driven differences in behavior between male humans on average and female humans on average. Anyone who tells you different is a fool

That is the very nub of my gist. Do you disagree?

517 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 6:13:01pm

re: #516 GeneJockey

You seem to be working very hard to disprove a point I never made.

You called the difference between gender and sex semantics. It is not.

There are biologically driven differences in behavior between male humans on average and female humans on average

This isn’t true.

Do you disagree?

Yes. There aren’t any biologically driven differences in behavior between male humans and female humans on average. If you think otherwise, then give an example.

518 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 6:14:11pm

Men, on average, do not get PMS.

519 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 6:14:39pm

re: #518 GeneJockey

Men, on average, do not get PMS.

How is “PMS” a behavior?

520 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 6:18:56pm

It is a series of biological changes that manifest in mood changes that manifest in behavior. If it did not manifest in behavior, it would not be observable.

I’ll give you an example. My wife had HORRIBLE PMS. 3/4 of the time, she told me how lucky she was. 1/4 of the time she told me her life sucked and she’d been fooling herself.

She tried taking the minipill, but that was like the bad 1/4 of the cycle ALL THE TIME.

With Menopause, the bad 1/4 went away.

I was not in her head, but I could tell when the bad 1/4 was happening. How? Her behavior.

521 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 6:22:15pm

re: #520 GeneJockey

It is a series of biological changes that manifest in mood changes that manifest in behavior.

In other words, it’s not a behavior. There is no unifying ‘behavior’ that is PMS. There are behaviors that some women get on PMS, which some men get because of other biological factors, too.

If it did not manifest in behavior, it would not be observable.

Of course it would be. There’s actual physical changes that happen with PMS, and they have effects, like pain, depression, etc.

I was not in her head, but I could tell when the bad 1/4 was happening. How? Her behavior.

That her physical state affected her doesn’t mean that physical state is her behavior. The way she behaved is also not universal to all women. Even the physical symptoms of PMS are massively variable across women, and all those symptoms are things that men experience too with the exception of the gross anatomy differences. All the behaviors exhibiting during PMS are also exhibited by men, commonly.

522 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 6:30:13pm

You are reduced to ridiculous parsing in defense of a nonsensical point. The problem with being very rational is, as in this case, one can become a ferocious rationalizer, as you’ve done here. I have some experience with this, with a friend on the Bowsite who was an amazingly smart, rational guy but left it all at the door when the topic was Climate Change.

Here, you attempt to separate a biologically-driven change in emotional state from behaviors resulting from that biologically driven state, in order to defend the ludicrous point that the only differences in behavior between the human sexes are culturally driven.

You’re falling into the same pit you decried above, taking a reasonably valid point and pushing it to the ridiculous.

523 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 6:35:25pm

re: #522 GeneJockey

You are reduced to ridiculous parsing in defense of a nonsensical point.

I’m not parsing anything.

The problem with being very rational is, as in this case, one can become a ferocious rationalizer, as you’ve done here. I have some experience with this, with a friend on the Bowsite who was an amazingly smart, rational guy but left it all at the door when the topic was Climate Change.

Comparing me to a climate change denier! Classy!

Here, you attempt to separate a biologically-driven change in emotional state from behaviors resulting from that biologically driven state, in order to defend the ludicrous point that the only differences in behavior between the human sexes are culturally driven.

Again: The same behavioral changes that women experience during PMS are experienced by men too, also from biological reasons.

You’re falling into the same pit you decried above, taking a reasonably valid point and pushing it to the ridiculous.

Sure, you can say that, and I can say the same thing back to you. But I’m sorry, it doesn’t change the truth. For example, the Sapolsky article—Sapolsky is a biological scientist, by the way— shows how the old mythos of testosterone causing aggression is wrong, and how hard it is to talk about behavior being ‘driven’ by biology. Sapolsky is awesome, he’s a biologist, and please just read his essay. I am not, like climate deniers, citing cranks and weirdos, I’m citing a world-class neuroendocrinologist.

524 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 7:38:12pm

Obdi, I just reread your original response to my post and you ALREADY ADMITTED differences between the sexes in the rate and/or timing of acquisition of language skills. You have already, in your first post, conceded the point.

Sure culture is huge, but kids aren’t simply blank slates we write on. Biology is also huge, but kids don’t come out preprogrammed. Failing to acknowledge both is insane.

re: #523 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I’m not parsing anything..

I disagree. You’re trying to separate a biologically driven difference in mood from the response to that mood.

Comparing me to a climate change denier! Classy!.

You could also consider it a compliment, since I consider that friend to be one of the smartest guys I’ve met, and definitely smarter than I am. But subject to blinds spots, wherein his intelligence allows him to rationalize around what he doesn’t want to believe.

Again: The same behavioral changes that women experience during PMS are experienced by men too, also from biological reasons..

Ah, but not on a 28-day (on average) cycle.

Sure, you can say that, and I can say the same thing back to you.

But only one of us is right. Hint - I’m pretty sure it’s not you.
///

But I’m sorry, it doesn’t change the truth. For example, the Sapolsky article—Sapolsky is a biological scientist, by the way— shows how the old mythos of testosterone causing aggression is wrong, and how hard it is to talk about behavior being ‘driven’ by biology. Sapolsky is awesome, he’s a biologist, and please just read his essay. I am not, like climate deniers, citing cranks and weirdos, I’m citing a world-class neuroendocrinologist.

Argument from authority? tsk, tsk.
///

Seriously, though - in addition to the different behaviors of the different sexes in the animal kingdom, there’s plenty to observe in the world that strongly suggests differences on average between the sexes. Of course one can fall into the trap of the Evolutionary Psychologists, and excuse (for example) male infidelity as biologically driven. But you don’t need to deny ANY biologically based behavioral differences between sexes to call that self-indulgent hogwash.

525 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 7:55:38pm

re: #524 GeneJockey

Obdi, I just reread your original response to my post and you ALREADY ADMITTED differences between the sexes in the rate and/or timing of acquisition of language skills. You have already, in your first post, conceded the point.

That’s not behavior.

Sure culture is huge, but kids aren’t simply blank slates we write on. Biology is also huge, but kids don’t come out preprogrammed. Failing to acknowledge both is insane.

I’m not not acknowledging both. I’m saying that gender is cultural.

I disagree. You’re trying to separate a biologically driven difference in mood from the response to that mood.

I don’t know what this means. Men have the same moods as women who have PMS, from biological sources.

You could also consider it a compliment, since I consider that friend to be one of the smartest guys I’ve met, and definitely smarter than I am. But subject to blinds spots, wherein his intelligence allows him to rationalize around what he doesn’t want to believe.

Hah, no, I”m not going to take a comparison to a climate scientist as though it’s a compliment.

Ah, but not on a 28-day (on average) cycle.

Men don’t have hormonal cycles that affect their moods? Or they don’t have that one?

If someone doesn’t have that hormonal cycle, are they not a woman?

But only one of us is right. Hint - I’m pretty sure it’s not you.
///

Please read the Sapolsky article. It’s really great.

Argument from authority? tsk, tsk.
///

The fuck? Why be an ass? We’re discussing a scientific topic, I’m recommending a scientist. Are you going to read him?

Seriously, though - in addition to the different behaviors of the different sexes in the animal kingdom, there’s plenty to observe in the world that strongly suggests differences on average between the sexes. Of course one can fall into the trap of the Evolutionary Psychologists, and excuse (for example) male infidelity as biologically driven. But you don’t need to deny ANY biologically based behavioral differences between sexes to call that self-indulgent hogwash.

The different behavior of sexes in things that don’t have genders really doesn’t matter to what we’re talking about. Y ou do remember you conceded that gender is different from sex, right?

By the way, male infidelity is not something that’s the same, remotely, between different cultures, nor is female infidelity. So yeah, that’s a great example of something a lot of people point to biology for when that’s a lousy explanation.

Are you going to read the Sapolsky paper? Just that one, I think, would help improve your ideas about behavior and physical causation of that behavior.

526 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 8:17:54pm

re: #525 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

That’s not behavior.

Nonsense.

I’m not not acknowledging both. I’m saying that gender is cultural.

And I didn’t use the term gender there, didja notice?

I don’t know what this means. Men have the same moods as women who have PMS, from biological sources.

1. I’m not sure I agree, and 2. again, not on a 28day, biologically driven cycle.

Hah, no, I”m not going to take a comparison to a climate scientist as though it’s a compliment.

1. He’s an engineer. 2. Your choice. You remind me of him, and I miss him.

<blockquote>Men don’t have hormonal cycles that affect their moods? Or they don’t have that one?

Men don’t have THE SAME hormonal cycles that affect their moods in the same way.

If someone doesn’t have that hormonal cycle, are they not a woman?

Don’t go absolutist on me, bucko. As I’ve made ABUNDANTLY clear I do not believe in absolute categories, because that’s not how biology works.

Please read the Sapolsky article. It’s really great.

I might, but 56 years of observation will not be discounted based on it.

The fuck? Why be an ass? We’re discussing a scientific topic, I’m recommending a scientist. Are you going to read him?

Miss the sarc tags, Obdi?

The different behavior of sexes in things that don’t have genders really doesn’t matter to what we’re talking about. Y ou do remember you conceded that gender is different from sex, right?

I haven’t been talking about genders for HOURS now. And I didn’t so much concede that point as point out it wasn’t what I was talking about. If that’s what you’re on about, we’re talking past each other.

By the way, male infidelity is not something that’s the same, remotely, between different cultures, nor is female infidelity. So yeah, that’s a great example of something a lot of people point to biology for when that’s a lousy explanation.

Are you going to read the Sapolsky paper? Just that one, I think, would help improve your ideas about behavior and physical causation of that behavior.

Since my ideas on behavior and physical causation are really simple, and really obvious, I’m not sure what improvement is likely to be. Also, if it costs any money, then no, I won’t read it.

527 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 8:23:01pm

re: #526 GeneJockey

Difference in language acquisition isn’t behavior. It’s not nonsense that it’s not behavior. It gives women, on average, a greater capability to use verbal skills to defuse stuff, but it isn’t behavior on its own. Capacity to behave in a way is not behavior.

1. I’m not sure I agree, and 2. again, not on a 28day, biologically driven cycle.

Who cares about the exact days of the cycle?

Men don’t have THE SAME hormonal cycles that affect their moods in the same way.

Women don’t have the SAME hormonal cycles as each other.

Miss the sarc tags, Obdi?

No, I got you made a sarcastic answer. As I said, why be an ass? Are you going to read him?

I haven’t been talking about genders for HOURS now. And I didn’t so much concede that point as point out it wasn’t what I was talking about. If that’s what you’re on about, we’re talking past each other.

You’ve been talking about genders this entire time. You conflate gender and sex, which you’re wrong to do.

I might, but 56 years of observation will not be discounted based on it.

You forgot the sarc tags when you said that you’d trust your own biased anecdotal observations over rigorous scientific work based on empirical evidence and repeatable, falsifiable tests.

Since my ideas on behavior and physical causation are really simple, and really obvious, I’m not sure what improvement is likely to be. Also, if it costs any money, then no, I won’t read it.

Let’s make it simple. Do you think testosterone drives aggression?

528 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 8:41:45pm

re: #527 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Difference in language acquisition isn’t behavior. It’s not nonsense that it’s not behavior. It gives women, on average, a greater capability to use verbal skills to defuse stuff, but it isn’t behavior on its own. Capacity to behave in a way is not behavior.

Who cares about the exact days of the cycle?

Women don’t have the SAME hormonal cycles as each other.

No, I got you made a sarcastic answer. As I said, why be an ass? Are you going to read him?

You’ve been talking about genders this entire time. You conflate gender and sex, which you’re wrong to do.

You forgot the sarc tags when you said that you’d trust your own biased anecdotal observations over rigorous scientific work based on empirical evidence and repeatable, falsifiable tests.

Let’s make it simple. Do you think testosterone drives aggression?

Sorry but that’s too simplistic. Let’s posit an hypothesis:

Testosterone may have effects on behavior.

This predicts that artificially raising testosterone may have observable behavioral effects.

Luckily, this has already been extensively tested. For example.

The data support the hypothesis.

529 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 8:46:52pm

Here’s one in humans

BTW, I’d note that a quick perusal of the biological literature indicates that in biology we tend to use the term ‘gender’ interchangeably with ‘sex’.

530 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 9:00:17pm

re: #528 GeneJockey

Sorry but that’s too simplistic. Let’s posit an hypothesis:

>Testosterone may have effects on behavior.

This predicts that artificially raising testosterone may have observable behavioral effects.

Luckily, this has already been extensively tested. For example.

The data support the hypothesis.

That is a mouse, not a human, first of all. second of all: Sapolsky’s research found that only at levels below 20% or above 200% of ‘normal’ testosterone had observable results. What he also found was that aggressive behavior drove testosterone production. It’s a really, really good piece of writing. It’s in a book you can get from the library. Please read it.

BTW, I’d note that a quick perusal of the biological literature indicates that in biology we tend to use the term ‘gender’ interchangeably with ‘sex’.

That’s because you don’t deal with anything that has a gender. As far as I know, there aren’t many animals where a male animal can take on the female role and vice versa. This is one reason why comparisons between human behavior and any animal other than primates is foolish. If there are animals that can swap gender roles, then you really ought to use ‘gender’ differently than ‘sex’, since they mean different things.

The most you can say, the absolute most, is that, in general, what we call ‘male’ and ‘female’ in a sex-based way (which may include people who are actually genetically male or female but have a hormone insensitivity, or people who have both sex characteristics, or whatever) tend to (assuming the same environment) have some physical similarities which mean that they have similar hormone levels, some of the time (but not always) and that these hormones interact with behavior (but there’s a causative element between behavior and hormones that makes this insanely hard to untangle).

Since a genetic female who acts like a male is, in gender, a male, she doesn’t share these similarities with genetic men, and yet that person’s behavior will be identified more as ‘male’ than ‘female’. Any category of sex-based gender excludes a large number of people from it, and cannot in any way help predict the behavior as an individual.

Boys play with violent toys, in general, because we encourage that, and discourage them from other things. This encouragement and discouragement starts immediately at birth, including in when we encourage our child to speak or to shush, the volume we teach them is appropriate. Biological differences past infancy automatically include changes that were wrought by environment, including their own behavior. Testosterone levels rise when you act aggressively; women are inhibited, socially, from acting aggressively.

When women are not so inhibited, aggression—and testosterone levels—rise. A biological result purely from a difference in socialization. When testosterone levels are altered in a massive way, you see a change in behavior, but the change and effects are not linear—there is not a relationship between testosterone causing aggression, but megadoses of it influencing aggression or a great paucity diminishing aggression.

Please read Sapolsky.

531 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 9:10:46pm

Sorry, dude, but falling back on ‘that’s mice not men’ is weak tea, indeed. You would thus be positing that effects that are measurable in animals with similar physiology, and similar hormonal systems DO NOT happen in man, and you have no reason to so assume.

Further, the second paper linked is in humans.

You may be overconcluding from Sapolsky’s work. Being unable to prove a causal link between testosterone and aggression does not disprove a causal link between testosterone and behavior. Attempting to limit it to whether testosterone ‘drives’ aggression is a Straw Man, since I never said it did.

532 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 9:21:46pm

re: #531 GeneJockey

Sorry, dude, but falling back on ‘that’s mice not men’ is weak tea, indeed.

No. Animal models tell us zero about human behavior, except primate models.

You would thus be positing that effects that are measurable in animals with similar physiology, and similar hormonal systems DO NOT happen in man, and you have no reason to so assume.

Mice don’t have similar physiology to humans.

Further, the second paper linked is in humans.

Increasing or decreasing the testosterone of an individual, as Sapolsky points out, is not a very good way of studying this, because our levels of testosterone vary so wildly. You are not then measuring whether testosterone has an effect on behavior—as in, you’re not saying that testosterone level X is associated with the behavior—you’re changing the testosterone of an individual. So it’s not even really asking the right question.

You may be overconcluding from Sapolsky’s work. Being unable to prove a causal link between testosterone and aggression does not disprove a causal link between testosterone and behavior. Attempting to limit it to whether testosterone ‘drives’ aggression is a Straw Man, since I never said it did.

Well read the fucking book and then you’ll know. Why not read him? You can get him out of the library, he writes a lot better than me, and he’s not going to get insulted at your stupid, jackass comparison to a conspiracy theorist when trying to argue about biology, because it’s a book.

I didn’t claim, either that, there’s no causal link between testosterone and behavior. Well, ‘causal’ is a dumb word. Testosterone, along with everything else in the environment, has an effect on behavior.

Read Sapolsky. I am completely out of patience.

533 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 9:22:12pm

And read the other essays too. Learn about the topic. It’s fun! It won’t hurt.

534 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 9:29:17pm

re: #532 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

No. Animal models tell us zero about human behavior, except primate models.

Horseshit.

Mice don’t have similar physiology to humans.

More horseshit. They certainly fucking do. There’s no Special Creation, ya know.

Increasing or decreasing the testosterone of an individual, as Sapolsky points out, is not a very good way of studying this, because our levels of testosterone vary so wildly. You are not then measuring whether testosterone has an effect on behavior—as in, you’re not saying that testosterone level X is associated with the behavior—you’re changing the testosterone of an individual. So it’s not even really asking the right question.

That’s why nobody uses an N of 1. Neither of the studies I linked to use an N of 1, so that argument doesn’t even make sense.

Well read the fucking book and then you’ll know. Why not read him? You can get him out of the library, he writes a lot better than me, and he’s not going to get insulted at your stupid, jackass comparison to a conspiracy theorist when trying to argue about biology, because it’s a book.

You chose to be insulted by comparison to someone I like and admire, despite his flaws. Your call.

I didn’t claim, either that, there’s no causal link between testosterone and behavior. Well, ‘causal’ is a dumb word. Testosterone, along with everything else in the environment, has an effect on behavior.

THANK YOU! Was that so hard?

Read Sapolsky. I am completely out of patience.

I got a dollar says I could keep you going. ;-)

535 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 2, 2014 9:34:43pm

re: #534 GeneJockey

THANK YOU! Was that so hard?

Yeah, you’re reading that wrong.

I got a dollar says I could keep you going. ;-)

This made me lose a chunk of respect for you. Seriously. I hate that shit. Along with trying to convince me that comparing me to climate change denier was actually a compliment because oh no he’s otherwise so smart.

Read Sapolsky. Read the other people I cited. At least, please, get to the state where you can really understand the difference between sex and gender.

536 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 9:44:15pm

re: #535 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Yeah, you’re reading that wrong.

Not ‘ardly, ‘arry. You acknowledge, sensibly, that “Testosterone, along with everything else in the environment, has an effect on behavior.”

This made me lose a chunk of respect for you. Seriously. I hate that shit.

So, humorless AND obsessive. That’s a dangerous combination.

Along with trying to convince me that comparing me to climate change denier was actually a compliment because oh no he’s otherwise so smart.

Bite me. My observation stands.

Read Sapolsky. Read the other people I cited. At least, please, get to the state where you can really understand the difference between sex and gender.

Pubmed is a wonderful thing.

First sentence of an abstract of a Sapolsky article:

Hormones seem to play important roles in the regulation of human aggression.

Huh. It’s almost like he and I agree that biology and culture interact in complex ways to lead to behavior.

537 GeneJockey  Apr 2, 2014 10:10:51pm

Note also that a quick peek at Sapolsky’s publications indicates he doesn’t seem to agree that non-primate animal models tell us nothing about human behavior. He seems to use them frequently.

538 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 3, 2014 4:33:08am

re: #536 GeneJockey

Huh. It’s almost like he and I agree that biology and culture interact in complex ways to lead to behavior.

And I don’t disagree with that either. What I disagree with is the bit where ‘gender’ is a biologically meaningful concept.

Remember? We’re talking about gender?

539 GeneJockey  Apr 3, 2014 7:01:07am

‘Gender’ is a biologically useful concept, if you used it as biologists use it, as a synonym for ‘sex’ in sexually reproducing species.

Define it in a nonbiologically relevant way, and it becomes less biologically relevant.

540 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 3, 2014 7:18:05am

re: #539 GeneJockey

‘Gender’ is a biologically useful concept, if you used it as biologists use it, as a synonym for ‘sex’ in sexually reproducing species.

Sure.

Define it in a nonbiologically relevant way, and it becomes less biologically relevant.

And the way that we define gender in culture is exactly this, and exactly what we’re talking about. The gender roles in our culture do not come from biological differences, but from socialization. some of the socialization is based on perceptions of those biological differences, but that is all. In cultures where men do the hunting and women do the gathering, even a man who is weaker and smaller than other men goes with the hunting party, and even a robust, strong woman does not. Likewise, aggressive girls are discouraged from being aggressive, and aggressive boys are encouraged to be aggressive: this is why young boys play with violent toys and girls do not. When aggressiveness in girls is not discouraged, they act more aggressively—and their testosterone levels rise, as well.

The divide in gender roles does not come from biological differences but (highly inaccurate) perceptions of those differences, and enforcement of gender roles by social structure. Gender, in humans, is not a biologically meaningful term.

That is as simply and straightforwardly as I can put it. I encourage you to read the really, really interesting and nifty essays that I cited above.

541 GeneJockey  Apr 3, 2014 11:26:10am

I see - have seen - where you’re coming from, and to a great extent I agree, but I cannot agree with the degree of absoluteness you attach to your conclusions. I think there’s more to biology than you appear to. But, since it is impossible to do the properly controlled experiment, we’re left with gleanings from psychological experiments which ATTEMPT to control for things, and animal models which have some, but not complete relevance.

In my experience, like most other categorizations, ‘gender’ as culturally defined makes a certain amount of rational sense, and is useful to some extent. The problem comes when it is used to overconclude, and overpredict.

For example, I had a friend one summer when I worked in a warehouse. He was a small man, about 5’2” and maybe 100 lbs soaking wet. Because the warehouse divided jobs solely by gender, he would be assigned things like stacking cases of #10 tall cans - 9 lbs each, 6 to a case, in stacks almost as tall as he was. Almost all of the women were bigger and stronger, but they were women, so they got the ‘women’s jobs’, and he was expected to be able to do the same work as guys my size (6’0).

It wasn’t fair, or sensible. It was based on broad generalization which failed to be predictive of all realities.


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Best of April 2024 Nothing new here but these are a look back at the a few good images from the past month. Despite the weather, I was quite pleased with several of them. These were taken with older lenses (made from the ...
William Lewis
2 days ago
Views: 165 • Comments: 2 • Rating: 5
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 weeks ago
Views: 408 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1