Vox Publishes Full Text of the Deleted Times of Israel Post About Genocide

Updated by Max Fisher on August 1, 2014 - Vox

It’s Max Fisher, but most of this is factual — and there’s one pullout I’ve highlighted below that Max got exactly right. ToI had the sense to take this post from a blogger, not a journalist, down quickly, so I don’t see it as representing the Times at all, or the mainstream media of Israel. It is however an extreme minority opinion there that we do need to keep awareness of, if for no other reason to keep it in check.

The English-language Israeli publication Times of Israel today published, and then quickly deleted, a blog post by the writer Yochanan Gordon with the extremely inflammatory headline “When Genocide is Permissible.” The post does not explicitly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, but it asks if doing so would be morally justified after building up the case it would be and presenting only evidence in the affirmative.

“What other way then is there to deal with an enemy of this nature other than obliterate them completely?” Gordon asks. And later, arguing that Hamas will never accept peace and that Israel is justified in doing anything necessary to impose it, “If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals?”

This is not because Gordon himself is a particularly influential writer, much less a political leader of any kind, but because this post represents an extreme iteration of a much broader problem, in which the conflict and the discourse around it exacerbates and empowers extremism on both sides of the conversation. We’ve preserved the full text of the now-deleted blog post below; you can read it for yourself. This is not because Gordon himself is a particularly influential writer, much less a political leader of any kind, but because this post represents an extreme iteration of a much broader problem, in which the conflict and the discourse around it exacerbates and empowers extremism on both sides of the conversation. There is real social science behind this phenomenon, which pushes the politics of the conflict away from peace and toward more hard-line positions, as well as raising voices that de-humanize the “other side” in a way that makes it easier to perpetuate the fighting.

My two cents on the topic: extremists have only the power that we collectively grant them — they are, and will always be only a small margin at the fringe edge of humanity. Those who use fear and anger to shape the future can only affect us minimally if we do not allow their anger and fear to mold and shape us individually.

More: Here’s the Full Text of the Deleted Times of Israel Post Backing Genocide in Gaza - Vox

——— Update——

Please also note this accurate observation from Charles:

Max Fisher’s opening sentence is wrong. The Times of Israel blog section is not officially published - it’s called their self-publishing section, and it’s unedited. So no - the Times of Israel did not “publish” that blog post. It was published at their site by the author.

It’s also important to note that the blogger who made the Genocide post resides in New York.

littlegreenfootballs.com

—— Update 08/02/2014: ——

Per TPM the Times of Israel has now removed the entire blog account and it’s archives, attempts to reach it go to their statement about the blogger in question breaching their terms of service.

talkingpointsmemo.com

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78 comments

1 wrenchwench  Aug 1, 2014 10:44:41am
There is real social science behind this phenomenon, which pushes the politics of the conflict away from peace and toward more hard-line positions, as well as raising voices that de-humanize the “other side” in a way that makes it easier to perpetuate the fighting.

It would be nice if he could link that to the real social science rather then to another Vox post that has a link to another Vox post that has a link to two studies that are tangentially related.

2 klys  Aug 1, 2014 10:47:50am

The author of the piece certainly continues to advocate for it on Twitter.

I will not embed the Tweets here.

3 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 1, 2014 10:48:05am

It was a no-brainer to delete an open call for genocide. A better question is why they don’t delete stuff like this.

4 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 1, 2014 10:49:20am

re: #2 klys

Could you give a link to his twitter?

5 klys  Aug 1, 2014 10:50:01am

re: #4 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

Could you give a link to his twitter?

Sure.

Context certainly makes me believe this is his account.

6 Randall Gross  Aug 1, 2014 10:51:19am

Times of Israel, Genocide and like terms are now trending on twitter. So everyone can dodge the real discussion and twitterbate to feel righteous… I think I will go read a very long book for a long time and uplug.

7 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 1, 2014 10:55:02am

For the record:

8 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 1, 2014 10:57:08am
9 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:17:57am
10 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:21:49am

Max Fisher’s opening sentence is wrong. The Times of Israel blog section is not officially published - it’s called their self-publishing section, and it’s unedited. So no - the Times of Israel did not “publish” that blog post. It was published at their site by the author.

Having said that, it was absolutely vile. And…

11 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:25:07am

Also, I have to note that Fisher’s opening sentence points out that the post does not actually advocate genocide - but their headline says “Backing Genocide.”

There seems to be a pretty heavy anti-Israel agenda going on among many of the people criticizing this disgusting blog post, and a LOT of distortion of facts to serve that agenda.

12 Ace-o-aces  Aug 1, 2014 11:29:18am

re: #11 Charles Johnson

Also, I have to note that Fisher’s opening sentence points out that the post does not actually advocate genocide

Oh come on, your not falling for the old “I’m just asking a question” BS? Especially in light of his twitter feed.

13 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:30:46am

re: #12 Ace-o-aces

I’m not “falling for” anything. I’m pointing out that Max Fisher’s description of the article doesn’t square with the headline.

14 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:32:41am

Do I really need to say that the article was VILE AND DISGUSTING? It was. I’m kind of insulted at the suggestion that I’m “falling for” something here.

15 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:34:08am

I promoted this post because there are obviously some issues here that need airing.

16 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 1, 2014 11:34:44am

re: #11 Charles Johnson

The author does not dispute that he advocates genocide.

17 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:36:03am

re: #16 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

I’m sure he does he does, but that wasn’t my point. Max Fisher wrote this:

The post does not explicitly endorse the genocide of Palestinians…

But the headline says “Backing Genocide.” Surely you can see the disconnect there?

18 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 1, 2014 11:36:25am

I don’t think this guy is even an Israeli. I think he’s here in NY, and that this originally appeared in a NY paper.

5tjt.com

I think that the person who wrote it is the son of the owner of that paper, and not an Israeli but a NY resident.

Yochanan’s father founded the Five Towns Jewish Times.

19 jaunte  Aug 1, 2014 11:36:37am
extremists have only the power that we collectively grant them

Agreed.
Pretty disgusting that the author of this eliminationist dreck lives safe in New York while he’s risking others lives with his writing.

20 Dr. Matt  Aug 1, 2014 11:36:49am

Have the RWNJs elevated Yochanan Gordon to “hero” status yet?

21 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 1, 2014 11:37:51am

Here is the TOI TOS (bolding is added)

Reader-Submitted Content

Readers are welcome to comment on our content. Comments to the Site can only be submitted via the Facebook Comments plugin. We may allow you, subject to our sole discretion, to post a blog or other content on the Site. You post any such comments and submit any such content at your own discretion and risk, and we accept no responsibility for them. We do not endorse any such comments or content. In submitting any such comments or content, you acknowledge that you have the legal right to submit them, and that we have no obligation to pre-screen them or moderate them. You grant us the non-exclusive, unconditional, royalty-free and sublicensable right and license to use, copy, transmit, excerpt, publish, publicly display, perform, distribute, create derivative works of, tag, modify, adapt to other technologies, or make other use of such material at our discretion, including for related online and offline promotional use. While we do not and cannot review every submission and are not responsible for their content, we reserve the right to remove or edit such comments or content at our discretion. We accept no liability for any comments or content posted or submitted by readers that is published by us or others.

In submitting any comment or content, you represent, warrant and covenant that (i) it is not libelous, defamatory, obscene, racist, inciteful, pornographic, abusive, illegal or offensive in any other way, and (ii) it does not violate or infringe on the copyright, trademark, privacy, moral or other rights of any person or entity. You may not post or distribute any commercial material (such as solicitation of funds or for goods or services or advertising) without our express consent in each instance. You agree to indemnify The Times of Israel and affiliates and their owners, staff and directors against any claims, liabilities and costs arising from comments or content that you post or submit or any breach of these Terms. You agree to cooperate with us in the defense of any such claim, and agree that we may in our discretion assume the exclusive defense of such claim, subject to your indemnification obligations.

Read more: The Times of Israel Terms and Conditions | The Times of Israel timesofisrael.com
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

22 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 1, 2014 11:38:20am

re: #18 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I don’t think this guy is even an Israeli. I think he’s here in NY, and that this originally appeared in a NY paper.

5tjt.com

I think that the person who wrote it is the son of the owner of that paper, and not an Israeli but a NY resident.

I just asked this downstairs. 5tjt is not the same as ToI, correct? The blog was published at 2 different websites?

23 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:38:33am

re: #18 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I don’t think this guy is even an Israeli. I think he’s here in NY, and that this originally appeared in a NY paper.

5tjt.com

I think that the person who wrote it is the son of the owner of that paper, and not an Israeli but a NY resident.

Yes, he’s actually an accountant who lives in New York - the son of the owner of 5 Towns Jewish Times. And that paper has posted this: Editor’s Note | the 5 Towns Jewish Times

Editor’s Note

An article that was posted earlier today on our website dealt with the question of genocide in a most irresponsible fashion. We reject any such notion or discussion associated with even entertaining the possibility of such an unacceptable idea.

The piece should have been rejected out of hand by editors but escaped their proper attention. We reject such a suggestion unequivocally and apologize for the error.

24 Lidane  Aug 1, 2014 11:38:50am

Two words that never, ever belong next to each other are “genocide” and “permissible”.

25 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 1, 2014 11:39:12am

re: #21 Pie-onist Overlord

The shithead also knew he was harming ToI.

26 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 1, 2014 11:39:13am

Conflating the existence of Jews and Israel is also a really dumb thing to do. I mean, really really dumb. If there’s one thing we know for certain it’s that Israel’s conquest doesn’t mean the end of Jews.

27 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:39:41am
28 Aqua Obama  Aug 1, 2014 11:39:52am
29 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 1, 2014 11:39:53am

re: #22 Backwoods_Sleuth

I just asked this downstairs. 5tjt is not the same as ToI, correct? The blog was published at 2 different websites?

They are independent websites. However the TOI allows anyone to post a blog article without pre-screening, just as long as they click off a check box. (see TOI TOS that I posted above)

30 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:41:16am

re: #29 Pie-onist Overlord

They are independent websites. However the TOI allows anyone to post a blog article without pre-screening, just as long as they click off a check box. (see TOI TOS that I posted above)

Exactly, but I’m seeing an awful lot of people referring to this as “a Times of Israel op-ed.”

31 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 1, 2014 11:41:25am

re: #20 Dr. Matt

Have the RWNJs elevated Yochanan Gordon to “hero” status yet?

I have not seen his name on TCOT, so far.

32 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 1, 2014 11:41:47am

re: #23 Charles Johnson

Nothing like being an armchair asshole.

Having a completely open blogging system inevitably opens people up to this. I mean, we’ve had people post horrible pages here, you’ve deleted them when they’ve come up, and I think everyone here prefers being able to post a page without having it moderated first.

That this guy chose to use the blogging system rather than submit an actual article, even though he’s the son of the newspaper’s owner, shows he was deliberately trying to avoid editorial process.

33 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 1, 2014 11:42:35am

re: #28 Aqua Obama

Ukraine also released a few important Katyn-related doccies a few years ago. My vvv long range plans include going to Kiev to do some research in the SBU archive…

34 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 1, 2014 11:42:46am

re: #29 Pie-onist Overlord

They are independent websites. However the TOI allows anyone to post a blog article without pre-screening, just as long as they click off a check box. (see TOI TOS that I posted above)

yes, I saw that. I’m just confused. The first mentions of this I heard today involved ToI based in Jerusalem. Now there’s this editor’s note from 5tjt, a completely different website that is based in NY. Are the two websites connected, or did this guy post the same thing at two unrelated websites?

35 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 1, 2014 11:43:42am

re: #34 Backwoods_Sleuth

yes, I saw that. I’m just confused. The first mentions of this I heard today involved ToI based in Jerusalem. Now there’s this editor’s note from 5tjt, a completely different website that is based in NY. Are the two websites connected, or did this guy post the same thing at two unrelated websites?

He posted the same article at two different websites.

Kind of like if someone posts an article at LGF and then posts the same article at DailyKos.

36 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 1, 2014 11:44:38am

re: #35 Pie-onist Overlord

He posted the same article at two different websites.

Kind of like if someone posts an article at LGF and then posts the same article at DailyKos.

thanks. I hate being confused, which seems to be happening a lot to me lately.

37 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 1, 2014 11:44:45am

I’m surprised that this hasn’t shown up at Arutz Sheva or at Pamela’s shriekhole.

38 klys  Aug 1, 2014 11:44:49am

re: #34 Backwoods_Sleuth

yes, I saw that. I’m just confused. The first mentions of this I heard today involved ToI based in Jerusalem. Now there’s this editor’s note from 5tjt, a completely different website that is based in NY. Are the two websites connected, or did this guy post the same thing at two unrelated websites?

Same thing at two websites.

ToI seems to be …somewhat similar to LGF in that people can register and post an article like this.

5tjt is a paper where the author of this piece is the son of the founder and apparently he managed to slip it through their normal process without anyone actually looking at it.

It’s unclear (to me) where it was posted first; I don’t know if one was a reprint of the other or if the author submitted it to both independently. The statement from 5tjt seems to make it sound like he had submitted it to them.

39 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 1, 2014 11:47:00am

Meanwhile, The Lie That Won’t Die

40 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 1, 2014 11:47:07am
41 Targetpractice  Aug 1, 2014 11:49:38am

Apparently the McDaniel campaign announced today that it has an important announcement to make on Monday. Something tells me it won’t to be that he’s actually gonna finally make good on all his trash talking and filing a legal challenge.

42 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 1, 2014 11:50:06am

re: #38 klys

I think he used his influence at 5JT to post it there, and also submitted it to the blogging platform at the TOI.

He grew up in a journalistic family, obviously, so he knew what he was doing, and that it was unethical, he just doesn’t care because he’s a holy armchair warrior, willing to sacrifice lives in the Middle East for his fanaticism.

We’re not going to run out of those anytime soon.

43 CuriousLurker  Aug 1, 2014 11:50:15am

re: #7 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

For the record:

[Embedded content]

The initial four comments in the cached article blueraven initially linked to were 100% a mixture of shock & push-back also:

Beau Bradley
Is this satire?

Rebecca Lesses * Top Commenter * Ithaca, New York
This is a disgusting article, which should be removed immediately. Genocide is NEVER permissible.

David De Bruijn * Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
This shameful post can do tremendous damage to the Times of Israel. It must be removed asap.

Akiva Cohen * Top Commenter * Litigator at Foley & Lardner
The answer is no.

44 Lidane  Aug 1, 2014 11:50:34am

POTUS is supposed to deliver a statement right about now.

45 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:50:38am

re: #37 Pie-onist Overlord

Pamela Geller is cunning enough to shy away from articles that openly discuss genocide against Muslims, because she knows she’ll be called out. She prefers to hint around about it, and let her knuckle-dragging readers fill in the rest.

46 Ace-o-aces  Aug 1, 2014 11:51:42am

They should have booted this guy when he repeated the lie that Mohammed Abu Khudair was honor-killed for being gay.

blogs.timesofisrael.com

I know this was a “blog” and not an official “op-ed”, but it’s on TOI’s website, so They’re responsible.

47 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 1, 2014 11:52:10am

re: #45 Charles Johnson

Pamela Geller is cunning enough to shy away from articles that openly discuss genocide against Muslims, because she knows she’ll be called out. She prefers to hint around about it, and let her knuckle-dragging readers fill in the rest.

Also I think this guy already knows that Arutz Sheva & Pamela are marginalized, and he’ll get more hits at a mainstream outlet.

48 Bulworth  Aug 1, 2014 11:53:40am

re:
#39

VIDEO!!!!!!11 Confirmed FACT.

49 ausador  Aug 1, 2014 11:53:57am

Obama is doing a good job of laying out his opinion (not a good one) of what the Republicans are doing.

50 ausador  Aug 1, 2014 11:54:38am

First question is on the tunnels and today’s kidnapping…

51 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 1, 2014 11:55:07am

re: #46 Ace-o-aces

They should have booted this guy when he repeated the lie that Mohammed Abu Khudair was honor-killed for being gay.

blogs.timesofisrael.com

I know this was a “blog” and not an official “op-ed”, but it’s on TOI’s website, so They’re responsible.

According to TOI’s TOS they don’t pre-screen blog posts, they trust the user to follow their TOS. They didn’t read it until they started to receive complaints.

52 CuriousLurker  Aug 1, 2014 11:56:35am

re: #8 Backwoods_Sleuth

This doesn’t surprise me at all. When I lived in NYC there was a public access channel on Time-Warner cable that carried a weekly program by a Kahanist/JDF type guy. It was pretty disgusting.

NYC has a little bit of everything, and keep in mind that Kahane was from Brooklyn. Some of the seriously radical Islamist preachers were there too (they might still be, though I imagine they’re more cautious these days).

53 Charles Johnson  Aug 1, 2014 11:58:47am

Obama: “I think it’s going to be very hard to put a cease-fire back together again, if Israelis and the international community can’t feel confident Hamas can follow through on a cease-fire commitment.”

54 wrenchwench  Aug 1, 2014 11:59:15am
55 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 1, 2014 12:00:08pm

MOST ANTI-SEMITIC PRESIDENT EVER!!!!
//

56 wrenchwench  Aug 1, 2014 12:01:35pm

re: #55 Pie-onist Overlord

MOST ANTI-SEMITIC PRESIDENT EVER!!!!
//

[Embedded content]

Unconditionally?!?!?!?! He wants to meet them halfway!!!11!

57 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Aug 1, 2014 12:01:54pm

re: #52 CuriousLurker

[Embedded content]

This doesn’t surprise me at all. When I lived in NYC there was a public access channel on Time-Warner cable that carried a weekly program by a Kahanist/JDF type guy. It was pretty disgusting.

NYC has a little bit of everything, and keep in mind that Kahane was from Brooklyn. Some of the seriously radical Islamist preachers were there too (they might still be, though I imagine they’re more cautious these days).

And yet, I can walk down to the nearest Mosque, and see Muslims queuing up at a kosher butcher’s nearby. So New York has that,too.

58 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 1, 2014 12:07:12pm

The TOI still has another story up right now that plays it too cute by half. Genocide is okay is long as you didn’t actually set out to kill the Palestinians as primary targets. If you kill them all in the process of killing off Hamas, well, you are good to go.

dish.andrewsullivan.com

G-d might be meant to illustrate that voice of the people-the vox populi. In this case, G-d had demanded that Saul (or the “prime minister”) enter into battle with the Amalekites (Hamas and its savage partners) and destroy them utterly even if that means to the last child, cow and goat. As cruel as this appears, it is a lesson that teaches a nation in terrible danger that it has a legitimate obligation to put a definite end to a substantial threat. The end of such a conflict must make it impossible for that enemy to rebuild and continue to vex one’s nation forever.

I agree with Sullivan. This looks like a pattern at TOI.

59 CuriousLurker  Aug 1, 2014 12:07:30pm

re: #57 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

And yet, I can walk down to the nearest Mosque, and see Muslims queuing up at a kosher butcher’s nearby. So New York has that,too.

Yep, thankfully the fringe mostly stays on the fringe and pretty much everyone else in NYC seems to love the diversity. If you can’t stand diversity, NYC is NOT the place to live—it’s like a National Geographic magazine come to life.

60 Pie-onist Overlord  Aug 1, 2014 12:09:15pm

re: #58 Aunty Entity Dragon

The TOI still has another story up right now that plays it too cute by half. Genocide is okay is long as you didn’t actually set out to kill the Palestinians as primary targets. If you kill them all in the process of killing off Hamas, well, you are good to go.

dish.andrewsullivan.com

I agree with Sullivan. This looks like a pattern at TOI.

Is this an authorized op-ed or another blog post? They do not pre-screen blog posts and do not remove them unless they receive complaints.

Two unscreened blog posts do not show a pattern of anything except they do not screen their blog posts.

61 Randall Gross  Aug 1, 2014 12:09:17pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

Exactly, but I’m seeing an awful lot of people referring to this as “a Times of Israel op-ed.”

I updated with that note.

62 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 1, 2014 12:11:49pm

re: #58 Aunty Entity Dragon

His fundamentalist religious rhetoric is right there with Hamas’.

63 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 1, 2014 12:12:52pm

re: #60 Pie-onist Overlord

Is this an authorized op-ed or another blog post? They do not pre-screen blog posts and do not remove them unless they receive complaints.

Two unscreened blog posts do not show a pattern of anything except they do not screen their blog posts.

Really? Two op ed posts one day apart from different authors allowing for homicidal insanity and you don’t think that is a pattern? The TOI has some real problems if the people they hire think this is acceptable within the norms of their immediate social group.

64 klys  Aug 1, 2014 12:13:47pm

re: #63 Aunty Entity Dragon

Really? Two op ed posts one day apart from different authors allowing for homicidal insanity and you don’t think that is a pattern? The TOI has some real problems if the people they hire think this is acceptable within the norms of their immediate social group.

If two blog posts had shown up like that at LGF from separate posters, would you say the same thing?

They don’t screen the blog posts. Nobody is approving them before they go up except for the authors.

65 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 1, 2014 12:16:05pm

re: #64 klys

If two blog posts had shown up like that at LGF from separate posters, would you say the same thing?

They don’t screen the blog posts. Nobody is approving them before they go up except for the authors.

If Charles had allowed them to stay…damn straight I would say there is a problem. If you permit that kind of insanity on your letterhead from a hired writer, you own it, and the post I highlighted is still up.

66 CuriousLurker  Aug 1, 2014 12:17:58pm

re: #60 Pie-onist Overlord

Is this an authorized op-ed or another blog post? They do not pre-screen blog posts and do not remove them unless they receive complaints.

Two unscreened blog posts do not show a pattern of anything except they do not screen their blog posts.

They need to start screening them ASAP if they want to maintain any kind of decent reputation. Especially when things like the current flare-up in Gaza are going on. I mean, it’s a newspaper that focuses on Israel, so they’re surely aware of the dangers of leaving the system open at a time like this.

I realize it may be a good way to get lots of free content that generates ad revenue, but stuff like this can end up costing them in the long run.

67 klys  Aug 1, 2014 12:18:36pm

re: #65 Aunty Entity Dragon

If Charles had allowed them to stay…damn straight I would say there is a problem. If you permit that kind of insanity on your letterhead from a hired writer, you own it, and the post I highlighted is still up.

Ok. Let’s step back a moment.

Those posts are hired in the same way that my posts here at LGF are hired. They get paid the same rate. Which is to say …they’re not. It is a platform that people have been allowed to post on, just like LGF Pages are.

Charles wouldn’t leave posts like that up, I agree. But he has to see them first. And in the time between when they go up and he sees them, other people on the Internet will see them too. This does not mean that there is a systematic problem or endorsement going on.

68 Aunty Entity Dragon  Aug 1, 2014 12:21:38pm

re: #67 klys

Ok. Let’s step back a moment.

Those posts are hired in the same way that my posts here at LGF are hired. They get paid the same rate. Which is to say …they’re not. It is a platform that people have been allowed to post on, just like LGF Pages are.

Charles wouldn’t leave posts like that up, I agree. But he has to see them first. And in the time between when they go up and he sees them, other people on the Internet will see them too. This does not mean that there is a systematic problem or endorsement going on.

My understanding is that TOI features these posts as “front page” items from people with the key to post. Not something that you or anybody off the street can just submit and “voila’!”

69 CuriousLurker  Aug 1, 2014 12:22:07pm

Okay, I think I’ve had enough for now.

Later, lizards.

70 Randall Gross  Aug 1, 2014 12:22:26pm

re: #67 klys

Ok. Let’s step back a moment.

Those posts are hired in the same way that my posts here at LGF are hired. They get paid the same rate. Which is to say …they’re not. It is a platform that people have been allowed to post on, just like LGF Pages are.

Charles wouldn’t leave posts like that up, I agree. But he has to see them first. And in the time between when they go up and he sees them, other people on the Internet will see them too. This does not mean that there is a systematic problem or endorsement going on.

I think the problem is the pattern - ToI allowing this to continue over long periods. (See Jeffrey Goldberg’s tweet above) To me this like calling out a site for consistently allowing bad commenters or posters to stay.

71 klys  Aug 1, 2014 12:29:36pm

re: #68 Aunty Entity Dragon

My understanding is that TOI features these posts as “front page” items from people with the key to post. Not something that you or anybody off the street can just submit and “voila’!”

Their system appears to allow anyone to submit for an account. It’s not quite the open registration Charles has, but from their “start a blog” section:

The Times of Israel welcomes bloggers of all stripes. If you have an idea for a new blog about anything from your life as a struggling thespian (or politician, plumber or fisherman, for that matter), to the daily doings of your remote Jewish community, recipes for potato latkes, compelling musings on the divine — we’re open-minded; you get the idea — then send us your full name (as it should appear on your blog); your email address (will not be disclosed!); some details about the blog; and your photo (no smaller than 300×300 pixels; preferably black and white). Please mention any relevant experience, including blogs that you currently maintain, and we will get back to you as soon as possible.

Presumably once you have that, you get to post whatever you’d like without any kind of screening or editing. Which is the problem at heart here, but this is not the same as saying they are hired authors.

re: #70 Randall Gross

I think the problem is the pattern - ToI allowing this to continue over long periods. (See Jeffrey Goldberg’s tweet above) To me this like calling out a site for consistently allowing bad commenters or posters to stay.

I’m certainly open to the suggestion that they should move to a screening system, even if it is just that posts with particular words are not published until an editor has looked them over, but in the meantime I am not willing to paint the whole website black because two bloggers posted shitty articles through an unscreened process.

72 Ace-o-aces  Aug 1, 2014 12:36:05pm

re: #60 Pie-onist Overlord

Is this an authorized op-ed or another blog post? They do not pre-screen blog posts and do not remove them unless they receive complaints.

It’s another blog post, but as others have pointed out, this blogs on TOI have a history of extremism, and they are ultimately responsible for what is posted on their website.

73 Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 1, 2014 12:38:35pm

re: #71 klys

And it’s not like LGF hasn’t had/still has the occasional wacko pages.
{{shudders at the memory of some of them}}

74 team_fukit  Aug 1, 2014 1:45:34pm

do people not realize that Times of Israel is a David Horowitz outfit?

75 klys  Aug 1, 2014 1:47:28pm

re: #74 team_fukit

do people not realize that Times of Israel is a David Horowitz outfit?

Ummm, Google tells me that it is David Horovitz who is not the same as David Horowitz unless I am very wrong?

76 team_fukit  Aug 1, 2014 1:51:29pm

re: #75 klys

ah yeah, my mistake

77 klys  Aug 1, 2014 1:52:04pm

re: #76 team_fukit

ah yeah, my mistake

Certainly fair. I can see where the error happened.

78 lostlakehiker  Aug 1, 2014 3:13:12pm

“Ever” is a big word. In the case at hand, though, the author is even wronger than he is in general.

Hamas is NOT incorrigible. Stubborn, yes. But there is no good reason to think that Hamas’ intransigence is some sort of physical constant like the charge on an electron.

Israel does not need to destroy Hamas, much less the Palestinian population of Gaza, to be reasonably secure. Blow the tunnels, get to the arsenals and rocket stockpiles, blow them, and the job is done at any rate for the time being. This can’t be done without collateral damage to civilians but it can be done with less collateral damage than what normally occurs in war. The main reason is the asymmetry of force. Israel can pick and choose targets because the rocket artillery and mortar bases they’re shooting at are not Death Stars.

Israel’s survival in the long run depends on coming to some sort of understanding with her neighbors. Even if that understanding is simply an agreement that good fences are the only good thing about the neighbor.

Such an understanding is probably possible provided Israel continues with her policy of being about as careful about civilian casualties as a warring side can be and still fight. The unfortunate Sabra and Chatilla camp incidents can eventually pass into history, along with the My Lai massacre and the Sack of Rome, provided they don’t become a pattern. But—-ye gawds—-a holocaust with Israel as the author?! It would be something Israel could never live down, and ultimately, never survive.


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