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1 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Sep 25, 2012 6:13:35pm

According to other things I'd read, one of the women of Caracal wasted one of the terrorists, and is coming in for high praise. Another one of the female soldiers, however, did not do as well:

The female soldiers' ability to fight alongside men has been questioned. But the battalion's men also have been stigmatized, written off as too weak to be accepted into a regular, all-male unit. Skeptics have also wondered how focused young men and women can be when working so closely with the opposite sex.

And the praise that followed Friday's incident was marred by a report Monday that one of the female Caracal soldiers chose to duck for cover rather than return fire during the border attack.

Israel Radio quoted the soldier as saying: "I didn't have a chance against them," referring to the militants. The soldier was not named in line with military policy.

I'd heard she was just to be reprimanded but I honestly think she should be court-martialed for cowardice in the face of the enemy.

2 jogiff  Tue, Sep 25, 2012 6:35:39pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

I'd heard she was just to be reprimanded but I honestly think she should be court-martialed for cowardice in the face of the enemy.

In a volunteer army, sure. But when you're conscripting your entire population then I think that it's an inevitable fact that some people aren't going to be fully motivated. They aren't serving out of duty or even self-interest. They're serving because they HAVE to.

3 Destro  Tue, Sep 25, 2012 9:10:18pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

Women make good warriors, see: Images of Female Vietcong Soldiers.

4 Mickey_being_mickey  Tue, Sep 25, 2012 9:23:37pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

According to the Times of Israel the one female is currently under investigation for running under fire. She's claiming that her actions were taken to avoid being a victim of friendly fire. I guess we will have to wait and see.

re: #2 jogiff

All female members of this battalion volunteer to an extra year of military service. Everyone of them wants to be in this unit, they want the chance to fight for their country.

5 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 26, 2012 7:19:01am

re: #3 Destro

Women make good warriors, see: Images of Female Vietcong Soldiers.

It's as with men, Destro: some women make good soldiers and other do not. But when any soldier, conscript or volunteer, male or female, hides from the enemy instead of fighting them when they were armed and had orders to fight, then that must be called cowardice. It cannot be tolerated, but again it must be pointed out that it was one person who did this. The rest of the unit under fire did their duty.

6 Destro  Wed, Sep 26, 2012 9:41:53am

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

I am more interested in how modern light infantry weapons (simplicity, cheapness and light weight) has enabled children and women to participate in combat.

7 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Sep 26, 2012 7:57:58pm

re: #6 Destro

I am more interested in how modern light infantry weapons (simplicity, cheapness and light weight) has enabled children and women to participate in combat.

As a former infantry NCO, I can see that you obviously don't know squat about it.

Even with lighter weight weapons, do you have a clue how much the full kit weighs? You have to want to be an Infantry soldier and you have to be in high physical condition to do it. There are many women who can be good Infantry - this BN proves it once again - but there is a difference between being a guerrilla and being leg Infantry.

There has never been a case where underage soldiers have made good Infantry. If they are not physically mature they will not survive in anything other than a guerrilla campaign and even then they will not be as effective or have the life expectancy of adult combatants.

I'd suggest you do some real studies but I doubt you'll pay attention to anything but the propaganda you usually bow down to.

8 Destro  Wed, Sep 26, 2012 8:07:09pm

re: #7 William Barnett-Lewis

As a former infantry NCO, I can see that you obviously don't know squat about it.

Even with lighter weight weapons, do you have a clue how much the full kit weighs? You have to want to be an Infantry soldier and you have to be in high physical condition to do it. There are many women who can be good Infantry - this BN proves it once again - but there is a difference between being a guerrilla and being leg Infantry.

There has never been a case where underage soldiers have made good Infantry. If they are not physically mature they will not survive in anything other than a guerrilla campaign and even then they will not be as effective or have the life expectancy of adult combatants.

I'd suggest you do some real studies but I doubt you'll pay attention to anything but the propaganda you usually bow down to.

The USA with its heavy full kit has yet to win a war since WW2 against light armed and light kitted guerrillas.

9 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:22:15am

re: #8 Destro

The USA with its heavy full kit has yet to win a war since WW2 against light armed and light kitted guerrillas.

As far as that's true, that is more about political factors than combat capability. Our soldiers have always had a far higher capability than any insurgent, and since Vietnam part of this is the body armor that lets our soldiers survive and keep learning after bullet or shrapnel hits that gravely wound or kill insurgents.

It's also worth noting that Los Zetas, the feared Narco-terrorists of Mexico, use body armor themselves when they can and train their men to fight while wearing it. Obviously, they think it worth the weight penalty in order to reduce combat losses. Armor and firepower are of critical import, Destro. Wlewisiii is entirely right.

10 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:25:17am

re: #6 Destro

I am more interested in how modern light infantry weapons (simplicity, cheapness and light weight) has enabled children and women to participate in combat.

Wlewisiii gave the main answer to this, but I'd also like to note that as far as you're right the effect has been baleful. Look at the havoc the LRA's brainwashed child soldiers have had if you need an example.

11 Destro  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:34:14am

re: #9 Dark_Falcon

I don't know why the issue of body armor came up.

All I said is modern weapons make it easier for women and children to utilize said weapons - I offered no morality if that is a good or bad thing - only a utilitarian observation.

Light weight weapons, easy to maintain, means civilians need less training and less strength to wield and use them.

Now having female soldiers in a modern army like Israel does is easier because of the the technology involved which of cause also depends on the attitudes of the civilization in question to having women be in charge of men in combat, etc.

Children have been part of war in the past but because of their physical limitations they served as musicians (very important to a marching army) or messenger riders (light on fast horses) or as mess/water boys. Now thanks to the light rifles and rpgs and mortars even children can be used. But I agree, not used well and by irregular armies.

12 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:39:48am

re: #11 Destro

I don't know why the issue of body armor came up.

All I said is modern weapons make it easier for women and children to utilize said weapons - I offered no morality if that is a good or bad thing - only a utilitarian observation.

Light weight weapons, easy to maintain, means civilians need less training and less strength to wield and use them.

Weight of equipment just kind of crept in, as sometimes happens here. As for the weapons, I'd agree they need less strength to wield, but an AK still needs a lot of training if its user is to use well.

More later.

13 Destro  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 9:06:44am

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Everything about what I read about the AK and training says it is very simple in terms of operation and use. It's long range accuracy always sucked though but many theories out there state that that is no longer a factor in warfare (though it turns out that is wrong - in Afghan like terrain long distance is a factor but in urban warfare not so much since fighting is done closer up. etc).


I think the US govt is working on a base rifle model that will be adoptable to the mission.

14 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 11:16:08am

Have you ever had proper rifle marksmanship training? The AK is simple to operate, much more complicated to properly use. Rather like a chess game.

Oh, that's right I forgot. You're one of the few real hoplophobes I've ever run into so you wouldn't be interested actually learning for yourself.

15 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:29:24pm

re: #13 Destro

Everything about what I read about the AK and training says it is very simple in terms of operation and use. It's long range accuracy always sucked though but many theories out there state that that is no longer a factor in warfare (though it turns out that is wrong - in Afghan like terrain long distance is a factor but in urban warfare not so much since fighting is done closer up. etc).

[Embedded content]


I think the US govt is working on a base rifle model that will be adoptable to the mission.

Again, what Wlewisiii said. It's easy to learn the basics of a rifle, but to use it well takes lots of practice. During Operation Knight's Charge in Basra in 2008 the Iraqi Army faced Mahdi Army militia and both were armed with AKM rifles. Despite that, the regular Iraqi Army's superior training meant that they suffered far fewer losses than their insurgent foes.


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