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1 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jan 30, 2014 3:31:04pm

A word that defines a fear of a religion is fairly new, you deduce. There are plenty of other words that signify hate of religions.

What does that have to do with Sam Harris? Did he once think it was coined by muslims and if so, so what? Do you advocate remove of the word from the language?

What is your point; without exploding your head?

2 Jayleia  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 5:23:10am

re: #1 Achilles Tang

It helps to read the post.

I’m sure it will annoy Sam Harris and others who try to portray the term as a neologism coined by Muslims (and/or their left-leaning sympathizers) intended to deflect legitimate criticism, but it simply isn’t true.

THAT’s what it has to do with Sam Harris…its actually in the original post. He didn’t ONCE think that, last I heard he still claims that. Same way certain groups say accusations of “xism” or “xphobia” are just ways to deflect THEIR “legitimate” criticisms of group x.

What to do about the word? Its not entirely accurate, but it is in popular use as defining a particular set of behaviors and beliefs, and its not going away anytime soon.

Part of the dissonance, I think, comes from the right-wing putting the term in popular use to describe those behaviors and beliefs…and then getting all whiny about being called that…when they are behaving and believing exactly like the word they popularized.

3 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 6:23:36am

The word exists and has a real meaning. Is it somehow changed by alleging that it was not originated by Muslims, or Islamists?

We have plenty of Christians claiming a war on them, or Christmas. Does it make any difference if we argue that the idea was coined first by non Christians or by allegedly persecuted Christians, whether there is a word for it or not?

4 Jayleia  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 7:12:40am

re: #3 Achilles Tang
Yes, when you are accusing a group of creating a concept to deflect criticism of that group…it helps your case if you are not lying.

5 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 8:04:17am

re: #2 Jayleia

re: #4 Jayleia

Thank you. You nailed it—I couldn’t have said any of it better myself.

6 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 9:24:59am

I wish people could get over the fact that ‘-phobia’ is NOT ALWAYS PROPERLY INTERPRETED TO MEAN FEAR.

-phobia
a combining form meaning “dread of,” “phobic aversion toward,” “unreasonable antipathy toward” a given object: agoraphobia; xenophobia.

NOTE: see the hyphen? this is the combining form, not the clinical psychological noun.

7 BusyMonster  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 10:38:19am
THAT’s what it has to do with Sam Harris…its actually in the original post. He didn’t ONCE think that, last I heard he still claims that. Same way certain groups say accusations of “xism” or “xphobia” are just ways to deflect THEIR “legitimate” criticisms of group x

Oh this so reminds me of how the Teabaggers suddenly figured out that instead of rallying around their pointy little heads we were laughing our butts off at the self-loathing image they’d created. All it did for me was encourage me to use the word more. Actually, on the occasions where I hear the right whine and bitch about language being used against them, I make a point of stopping and slathering it on as heavily as I can.

So, that’s where the right can cram their complaints about “islamophobia.”

8 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 2:31:43pm

re: #4 Jayleia

Yes, when you are accusing a group of creating a concept to deflect criticism of that group…it helps your case if you are not lying.

The criticism of a group does not lie in the supposed origins of the word used, it is in the meaning used regardless of semantic origins which may or may not be known by the user; which you instantly label with “lying” like all those over at Breitbart do when they face a disagreement.

Do you know the orgin of every word you use and would you discount the meaning if you found it was originated by some you disagreed with?

This is getting silly.

9 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 2:32:50pm

re: #5 CuriousLurker

Thank you. You nailed it—I couldn’t have said any of it better myself.

Of course you couldn’t.

10 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 2:37:41pm

re: #7 BusyMonster

Oh this so reminds me of how the Teabaggers suddenly figured out that instead of rallying around their pointy little heads we were laughing our butts off at the self-loathing image they’d created. All it did for me was encourage me to use the word more. Actually, on the occasions where I hear the right whine and bitch about language being used against them, I make a point of stopping and slathering it on as heavily as I can.

So, that’s where the right can cram their complaints about “islamophobia.”

I’m confused. Are you suggesting that the likes of Geller don’t suffer (perhaps enjoy is a better word) from Islamophobia?

11 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 3:08:33pm

re: #6 wrenchwench

I wish people could get over the fact that ‘-phobia’ is NOT ALWAYS PROPERLY INTERPRETED TO MEAN FEAR.

NOTE: see the hyphen? this is the combining form, not the clinical psychological noun.

So what do you wish people would interpret the word as?

12 Political Atheist  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 3:14:00pm

Kudos CL for digging in and doing so much work.

Maybe I’m just being naive. Some things on the ‘net or it’s subcultures just confound me.

AFAIK it’s a crying shame this much time goes into what should be a minor issue of phrases for some very difficult and loaded, even extreme negative circumstances. Like rank bigotry circles.

Rosiee & those of a similar mindset owe you a couple hours of your life back.

13 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 3:23:42pm

re: #12 Political Atheist

Thanks. I don’t really mind digging around though, its sort of interesting as you never quite know what your going to find as you follow one thread to another.

14 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 3:28:59pm

I… never mind… *headdesk*

15 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 4:00:48pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

I… never mind… *headdesk*

[Embedded image]

Another Breitbart response, again. I have yet to hear a rational response from you.

16 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 5:40:07pm

re: #11 Achilles Tang

So what do you wish people would interpret the word as?

There’s a link to the dictionary.

17 Varek Raith  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 5:40:08pm

re: #15 Achilles Tang

Funny, I was thinking the same for you.
We get it, you irrationally hate Islam.
That makes you an Islamophobe in my book.
The same goes for any other religions you irrationally hate.

18 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 6:31:15pm

The antonym of phobia is philia. That should be instructive enough for anybody whose confused into thinking the term is strictly limited to fear.

In chemistry and materials science the terms describe repulsion and attraction, and these are much better descriptors for how the two suffixes are used sociologically. A hydrophobic surface repels water droplets, they bead up and roll off, whereas a hydrophilic surface absorbs them.

19 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 7:35:08pm

re: #17 Varek Raith

Funny, I was thinking the same for you.
We get it, you irrationally hate Islam.
That makes you an Islamophobe in my book.
The same goes for any other religions you irrationally hate.

I don’t hate any superstition, but this conversation, if one can call it that, is not about superstitions; it is about the “fine” point of whether a word has meaning depending on who first supposedly originated it.

20 rosiee  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 10:00:04pm
The final report, Islamophobia: A Challenge for Us All, was launched in November 1997 by the Home Secretary, Jack Straw. […]

Jack Straw eh? Know what he’s known for?

21 Jayleia  Fri, Jan 31, 2014 11:30:17pm

re: #8 Achilles Tang

No, I don’t know the origin of every word, you need more straw, BTW. I don’t, however, go around continuing to claim a word was created for the purpose of making me look stupid, when I’ve seen evidence that it wasn’t. I also don’t go around claiming that words are inaccurate descriptions of me, when there’s plenty of evidence that they ARE accurate, according to the generally accepted use of the words.

Here’s why I used the word “lying”, its not that its ANY disagreement. Its that, some twelve years after 9/11, I would assume that Sam Harris should understand the actual use of the word by now. If he continues to misuse it, any reasonable observer has to assume an intent to deceive. Additionally, he’s claiming that the word is a modern invention and was created to intimidate/silence/deflect the criticisms made by people like him…it considerably predates him, and it accurately describes his behavior, therefore that argument is completely inaccurate and invalid.

re: #11 Achilles Tang

Again with my first comment…it helps if you read the comment.

22 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 1:10:51am

re: #20 rosiee

Jack Straw eh? Know what he’s known for?

LOL, seriously? That’s all you can come up with?
Allegations of anti-semitism by Einat Wilf
Jack Straw to ‘Post’: ‘I am not remotely anti-Semitic’

A British MP with a 35-year-long political career made a comment a few months ago that pissed some people off and he had charges of anti-Semitism leveled at him, so… are you implying that the Runnymede report on Islamophobia from 17 years ago is somehow tainted because he launched it?

You DO realize that both of the founders of Runnymede were Jewish, right? I guess they must’ve been some of those self-hating Jews, huh? That would explain them setting up the commission to study anti-Semitism that resulted in the 1994 report A Very Light Sleeper: The Persistence and Dangers of Antisemitism and the recommendations within it that spawned that the report on Islamophobia one three years later, right? Oh, wait, no it wouldn’t.

FFS, are you & your fellow trolls really that lacking in reading comprehension skills, or do you just think the rest of us are?

We’re done now, rosiee—like the others, all you’re going to get from me going forward is down-dings. No further attempts at conversation will be made. Got it? I hope so, because a couple of others don’t seem to have understood even though I clearly told them the same way I’m telling you.

23 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 1:28:20am

Y’know, in the past I didn’t want to spend any personal time utilizing my webdev skills to create a way where I’d be able to continue contributing here at LGF while circumventing the lion’s share of the silly bullshit trolling, but it looks like it might be about time for that to change…

24 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 4:42:09am

re: #23 CuriousLurker

Y’know, in the past I didn’t want to spend any personal time utilizing my webdev skills to create a way where I’d be able to continue contributing here at LGF while circumventing the lion’s share of the silly bullshit trolling, but it looks like it might be about time for that to change…

Not a good idea—it would just deprive you of the chance to explore the Internet subset of the human condition. Silly bullshit trolling is our window into the soul of 21st Cent man.

25 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 6:00:42am

re: #1 Achilles Tang

re: #9 Achilles Tang

re: #15 Achilles Tang

Fling 3 insults, get 3 downdings. CL is not acting like the assholes at Breitbart.com at all and shame on you for saying she is.

26 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 6:20:26am

re: #21 Jayleia

So I gather that Sam Harris said words to the effect that Muslims complain of Islamaphobia, and also said that Muslims had invented the word.

I’m sure I’ve seen that Muslims have used the word as an accusation against opponents (someone here even thought it applied to me because I dare be critical of CL because she never engages in debate).

So if Muslims somewhere never actually first coined the word, this changes what? If Sam Harris is wrong in that regard, but the word is still frequently used by many, Muslim and others, so what?

27 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 6:21:40am

It’s a strange part of the human condition that makes it “improper” to disrespect a certain subset of absolutely ludicrous beliefs just because people choose to attach the label of “sacred” to them.

28 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 6:24:05am

re: #25 Dark_Falcon

Fling 3 insults, get 3 downdings. CL is not acting like the assholes at Breitbart.com at all and shame on you for saying she is.

Her #14 is classic Breitbart and she did the same to avoid any debate in another thread, not to mention common garden insults.

29 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 6:27:02am

re: #23 CuriousLurker

Y’know, in the past I didn’t want to spend any personal time utilizing my webdev skills to create a way where I’d be able to continue contributing here at LGF while circumventing the lion’s share of the silly bullshit trolling, but it looks like it might be about time for that to change…

You don’t need webdev skills to contribute at any blog, you just need thick enough skin and self confidence to argue a position, or simply clarify one.

Don’t go and do a flounce, please.

30 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 7:32:54am

re: #29 Achilles Tang

You don’t need webdev skills to contribute at any blog, you just need thick enough skin and self confidence to argue a position, or simply clarify one.

Don’t go and do a flounce, please.

Suggesting Islam currently has much bigger problems with extremism and fundamentalism than any other major religion (something not always historically true, but obvious in current times to anyone who doesn’t have their head completely up their ass) is enough to make one an “Islamophobe” in the eyes of many.

31 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 7:39:01am

re: #30 SidewaysQuark

Suggesting Islam currently has much bigger problems with extremism and fundamentalism than any other major religion (something not always historically true, but obvious in current times to anyone who doesn’t have their head completely up their ass) is enough to make one an “Islamophobe” in the eyes of many.

To suppose that Islam is a uniform monolithic system of belief and practices is a short path to bad craziness. Same is true for Judaism, Christianity, and others.

32 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 7:44:49am

re: #31 Decatur Deb

To suppose that Islam is a uniform monolithic system of belief and practices is a short path to bad craziness. Same is true for Judaism, Christianity, and others.

Yes, I’m aware of that. Islam has a wide spectrum, ranging from extremely pleasant to extremely nasty, as does every over faith. Make-believing the spectrum has an equal distribution for every religion is an incorrect assessment of the situation, though.

33 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 7:48:12am

34 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 7:51:29am

re: #32 SidewaysQuark

Yes, I’m aware of that. Islam has a wide spectrum, ranging from extremely pleasant to extremely nasty, as does every over faith. Make-believing the spectrum has an equal distribution for every religion is an incorrect assessment of the situation, though.

Yeah, but the metrics for that are impossible, especially when the argument turns historical. The discussion right now is contaminated by 9/11 and the politics of the ME. It’s as useful as appraising Japanese flower arrangement in 1943.

35 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 9:22:12am

re: #34 Decatur Deb

Yeah, but the metrics for that are impossible, especially when the argument turns historical. The discussion right now is contaminated by 9/11 and the politics of the ME. It’s as useful as appraising Japanese flower arrangement in 1943.

The historical point I already mentioned. The here and now is a different story. One shouldn’t throw one’s hands in the air and “give up” on assessing a situation just because it’s “hard”. Acknowledging a situation is necessary before one can find a rational way of dealing with it. Make-believing the burner isn’t on isn’t going to stop a kettle from boiling over. Islamic extremism is hardly a cultural threat to the United States or Europe, and the majority of Muslims in those areas have amalgamated with free society well. Pretending it hasn’t wrought considerable cultural havoc elsewhere, or that it’s only handful of extremists responsible for every situation that’s a problem, isn’t realistic either.

36 Decatur Deb  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 10:30:38am

re: #35 SidewaysQuark

The historical point I already mentioned. The here and now is a different story. One shouldn’t throw one’s hands in the air and “give up” on assessing a situation just because it’s “hard”. Acknowledging a situation is necessary before one can find a rational way of dealing with it. Make-believing the burner isn’t on isn’t going to stop a kettle from boiling over. Islamic extremism is hardly a cultural threat to the United States or Europe, and the majority of Muslims in those areas have amalgamated with free society well. Pretending it hasn’t wrought considerable cultural havoc elsewhere, or that it’s only handful of extremists responsible for every situation that’s a problem, isn’t realistic either.

But to what end? What realistic action would we take to counter the harmful characteristics of a supposed dangerous faction of Muslims? We already spy on them and drop Hellfires on badguys and wedding parties.

(To answer my own question, we could wage cultural war with cultural weapons—subversion of governments, co-option of influence centers, and the injection of large volumes of sex/drugs/R&R. It ain’t gonna happen, we’re not that anthropological.)

37 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 2:23:25pm

re: #27 SidewaysQuark

It’s a strange part of the human condition that makes it “improper” to disrespect a certain subset of absolutely ludicrous beliefs just because people choose to attach the label of “sacred” to them.

Well, normally we don’t here disrespect them without invitation, such as the assumption that any criticism conceivably under the protection of “religion” is off limits, to be responded to with the accusation of Troll.

I never actually criticised CL’s adopted religion at all, I simply questioned the basis of her argument that the origins of a common word somehow invalidates other’s critique of her religion on that basis alone.

That’s how I saw it, and if wrong the response should have been a logical clarification instead of insults followed by a threat to flounce.

38 CuriousLurker  Sat, Feb 1, 2014 3:15:41pm
39 rosiee  Sun, Feb 2, 2014 3:45:59am

re: #22 CuriousLurker

Straw’s a shitbag, you’ll get no repose from me on that note, anyways, sorry to see you’re having a bad night, and I trust you’re comment to me was made in a flummoxed state of mind, because, honestly, I like you.

40 Jayleia  Sun, Feb 2, 2014 6:36:14am

re: #26 Achilles Tang

So I gather that Sam Harris said words to the effect that Muslims complain of Islamaphobia, and also said that Muslims had invented the word.

No. He claims that it was a concept popularized for the purpose of derailing reasonable criticisms of the religion (i.e. making people like him sound like bigoted assholes). When, in fact Islamaphobia accurately describes his behavior and beliefs.

I’m sure I’ve seen that Muslims have used the word as an accusation against opponents (someone here even thought it applied to me because I dare be critical of CL because she never engages in debate).

Well, in YOUR case, she’s probably quite right to disengage. Since you are fixated on who created the word instead of how the word is used by Sam Harris and co, and how the rest of the english-speaking world uses it, and why it is used that way.

So if Muslims somewhere never actually first coined the word, this changes what? If Sam Harris is wrong in that regard, but the word is still frequently used by many, Muslim and others, so what?

Didn’t we ALREADY cover this? Seriously? Time for an analogy…

Tin-Foil Hat Man: BLAHBLAHBLIBBITYBLAH
Normal Person: OK, Tin-Foil Hat Man, that’s tin-foil hat stuff…
Tin-Foil Hat Man: Of course, the idea of linking tin-foil hats and insanity is what THEY want you to think, a concept THEY popularized to make people like me look bad!
Normal Person: But…your beliefs are insane…and…you ARE wearing a tin-foil hat.

Replace Tin-Foil Hat Man with Sam Harris, descriptions of tin-foil hats with support of bigotry, and insanity with Islamaphobia, and THEY with Muslims and/or their supporters and you have a reasonably accurate depiction of what Sam Harris seems to think.

41 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 2, 2014 8:18:50am

re: #40 Jayleia

No. He claims that it was a concept popularized for the purpose of derailing reasonable criticisms of the religion (i.e. making people like him sound like bigoted assholes). When, in fact Islamaphobia accurately describes his behavior and beliefs.

Do you not notice that that is exactly how you are now using the word?

42 SidewaysQuark  Sun, Feb 2, 2014 9:09:54am

re: #36 Decatur Deb

But to what end? What realistic action would we take to counter the harmful characteristics of a supposed dangerous faction of Muslims? We already spy on them and drop Hellfires on badguys and wedding parties.

“To what end” do we criticize fundamentalist Christianity? Criticizing fundamentalist Islam is no different, and should be done based on the content as it presents itself, not on an outcome-based desire to ‘criticize all equally’.

43 CuriousLurker  Sun, Feb 2, 2014 9:15:58am

re: #40 Jayleia

Well, in YOUR case, she’s probably quite right to disengage.

THIS. There are a few people here with whom I’ve found it impossible to engage in any sort of productive, meaningful debate or discussion, so I’ve chosen to simply ignore them.

Oddly, instead of also walking away, this seems to cause them to redouble their efforts to provoke a response from me (presumably a defensively emotional one, based on some of the claims being made). I don’t understand the mentality.

44 Jayleia  Sun, Feb 2, 2014 9:18:19am

re: #41 Achilles Tang

Uh…no, because I didn’t use it that way…

Outsourced remainder of commentary to Inigo Montoya.

45 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 2, 2014 11:02:47am

re: #43 CuriousLurker

Try arguing your case or your understanding of what is said instead of reacting with insults, or dittoing someone else who admitted that it was personal, nothing to do with what was said.

You don’t have immunity here or anywhere.

46 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 2, 2014 11:05:08am

re: #44 Jayleia

Works both ways. How about we just try criticizing Islam without using “The” word and see how that ends up?/

47 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 3, 2014 12:08:33am

re: #19 Achilles Tang

re: #20 rosiee

re: #30 SidewaysQuark

Our resident Islamophobes.

48 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 3, 2014 5:46:22am

re: #47 Varek Raith

You have already demonstrated that any disagreement or implied critique of religion (that you here assume is Islam) qualifies as Islamaphobia.

No need to keep repeating yourself.

49 Jayleia  Mon, Feb 3, 2014 6:02:09am

re: #32 SidewaysQuark

Assuming that I agree that certain varieties of Islam have greater problems currently than other religions…

Now…I have a few questions: Why does it have those problems? how did those problems come about? and, once you’ve answered those questions, what does that knowledge suggest about how to ameliorate those problems?

50 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 3, 2014 6:33:45am

re: #49 Jayleia

You seem to imly that you have opinions of your own. Please offer them.

51 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 3, 2014 7:20:02am

re: #47 Varek Raith

Our resident Islamophobes.

Not so much: SQ just plain doesn’t like religion, any religion. Rosiee for her part was going after Jack Straw, not Islam. And Straw is a Labor Party-leftie who did a good number of things wrong.

52 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 3, 2014 7:47:57am

re: #42 SidewaysQuark

“To what end” do we criticize fundamentalist Christianity? Criticizing fundamentalist Islam is no different, and should be done based on the content as it presents itself, not on an outcome-based desire to ‘criticize all equally’.

Sorry—this page rolled off my sidebar a day or so ago.

I try to avoid criticizing fundamentalist (or any other) Christians. Telling people what to believe or disbelieve is arrogant and counter-productive. Acting to counter discrete errors might be valuable, but even that often degenerates into self-satisfaction. It’s far more important to take concrete action to prevent real harm that dogma might do to the community. To accomplish that, I’ll work with anybody. As an example, our tiny group of progressive activists meets in a Church of Christ in God—COCIG. One of our members is a deacon there. At least three of us are agnostic/freethinker. We work together to push back the night.

53 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 3, 2014 4:41:47pm

re: #52 Decatur Deb

I try to avoid criticizing fundamentalist (or any other) Christians.

Let’s be clear here, this thread had nothing to do with what I presume you mean; namely criticizing someone for their belief.

However another interpretation of your statement is to not criticize anything that could be implied as a criticism of someone’s religion if that person is known to belong to a religion or if the statement in some way relates to a religious aspect.

That latter interpretation resulted in multiple accusations of Islamaphobia against me and other insults, and it’s not the first time.

I enjoy a good debate, but if someone wants to hear nothing that they disagree with then most blogs are not the place to be.

54 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 3, 2014 5:59:25pm

Okay, I’ve had enough of the verbal incontinence & ankle-biting, so I’m going to run out the clock on this one, just as I did with another Page around this time last year that endured the same problem from the same insufferable member.

Hopefully, this won’t result in everyone having to listen to half-drunken whiny rants in the main thread like it did last time.

55 EPR-radar  Tue, Feb 4, 2014 1:13:29pm

There is a bunch of useless DARVO crap about parsing the ‘phobia’ in ‘homophobia’ that is very analogous to this case.

Both homophobia and Islamophobia have entered the language as the customary terms for irrational animus against non-straight people and Muslims respectively.

IMO, fussing about the terminology being used in a political/policy context pretty much has only one purpose —- to deny the reality that significant numbers of people (most likely including the terminology weenies) have such animus.

56 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 4, 2014 1:19:20pm

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