Dublin Archbishop: Church Leaders Are ‘In Denial’

Religion • Views: 2,822

The Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, has spoken out strongly against the Irish Catholic institutions that perpetrated and concealed the abuse of children for decades; but the Vatican itself remains silent.

DUBLIN – Dublin Archbishop Diarmuid Martin slammed Irish Catholic orders Monday for concealing their culpability in decades of child abuse, and said they needed to come up with much more money to compensate victims.

The comments from Martin, a veteran Vatican diplomat, were the harshest yet by a Roman Catholic leader following last week’s report detailing widespread abuse in scores of church-run industrial schools from the 1930s to the 1990s.

Martin said the orders of nuns and Catholic brothers who ran the workhouse-style schools must drop their refusal to renegotiate an intensely criticized 2002 agreement with the Irish government over compensation for victims. …

Martin said many church leaders remained “in denial” following a nine-year investigation by a commission, which published a devastating 2,600-page report five days ago.

He said the report documented beyond any doubt “church institutions where children were placed in the care of people with practically no morals.” The last of those schools for Ireland’s poorest children closed more than a decade ago.

Ireland’s national police force, the Garda Siochana, announced Monday that a senior detective, Assistant Commissioner Derek Byrne, would study the report to see if it provided any new evidence for prosecuting clerics for assault, rape or other criminal offenses. The report, however, did not identify any abusers by name because of a right-to-privacy lawsuit by the Christian Brothers order.

Martin accused the orders of falling short on the euro128 million amount they promised to the government. He said their failure to complete transfers of cash and property worth that much over the past seven years “is stunning.”

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213 comments
1 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:40:41pm

william donohue had no comment.

2 eddiespaghetti  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:44:30pm

A real life Angels and Demons...

Sick

3 Macker  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:45:00pm

How soon will it be before the Vatican shuffles Donohue off to somewhere else?

4 Vicious Babushka  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:45:04pm

I read some of those Ken Bruen books that Charles recommended. His writing style is rather minimalist. I did not read the "Magdalen Laundries" book but I'll look for it at the library. I'm reading "Priest" now.

5 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:45:20pm
He said the report documented beyond any doubt “church institutions where children were placed in the care of people with practically no morals.”

This just goes to show that religiousness is no indicator of morality.

6 Mich-again  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:50:00pm
did not identify any abusers by name because of a right-to-privacy lawsuit by the Christian Brothers order.

That is a perfect example of what can go wrong when governments make laws respecting an establishment of religion.

7 Dark_Falcon  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:50:43pm

re: #3 Macker

How soon will it be before the Vatican shuffles Donohue off to somewhere else?

They can't do that. The Catholic League is a lay organization. That said, the Vatican could and should denounce the practice of 'defending' the Church by covering up the truth. That would undercut Donohue effectively.

8 [deleted]  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:51:03pm
9 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:51:35pm

There was a movie about young women in Ireland shuffled off to convents because of their alleged "wicked ways." They suffered abuse by the nuns and were made to do the equivalent of slave labor.

The Magdalene Sisters (2002)

"Borrowed from Wikipedia:

The Magdalene Sisters is a 2002 film written and directed by Peter Mullan about teenage girls who were sent to Magdalene Asylums, otherwise known as the 'Magdalen Laundries': homes for women who were labeled as "fallen" by their families or society (though the film itself questions this). The homes were maintained by individual religious orders in the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. The film is a fictionalized account loosely based on true stories of the girls sent to the asylums. Peter Mullan has remarked that the film was initially made because victims of Magdalene Asylums had received no closure in the form of recognition, compensation, or apology, and many remained lifelong devout Catholics.[1] Former Magdalen inmate Mary-Jo McDonagh told Mullan that the reality of the Magdalene Asylums was much worse than depicted in the film "

10 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:52:15pm

Charles you said that the Vatican itself had no comment - remained silent on the issue but the link says:

DUBLIN – Dublin Archbishop Diarmuid Martin slammed Irish Catholic orders Monday for concealing their culpability in decades of child abuse, and said they needed to come up with much more money to compensate victims.

The comments from Martin, a veteran Vatican diplomat,

[emphasis added, realwest]
I would certainly hope that the Pope himself will speak out about this and isn't using a veteran Vatican diplomat to say it all.

11 laZardo  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:53:10pm

re: #10 realwest

I would think if the Pope had something to say about it, he'd write an entire encyclical on the matter. q:

12 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:54:01pm

re: #10 realwest

Charles you said that the Vatican itself had no comment - remained silent on the issue but the link says:

[emphasis added, realwest]
I would certainly hope that the Pope himself will speak out about this and isn't using a veteran Vatican diplomat to say it all.

The Pope needs to speak up about this. It's highly disturbing that he hasn't already, and his silence speaks volumes.

13 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:54:11pm

re: #11 laZardo
Um, what?

14 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:55:00pm

This issue gets too emotional for me. Needless to say, when a child is abused it leaves lasting scars. It can completely, permanently alter a person's life. Many times for the worst. You can't give these people back their childhood, you can't give them back their innocence. The least that can be done for them is an acknowledgement and financial compensation. That the money hasn't been forthcoming, after an agreement, is beyond shameful.

15 laZardo  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:55:05pm

re: #13 realwest

Ahem...

16 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:55:10pm

re: #12 Charles
Couldn't agree more. And - since it's not exactly a secret, I wonder why he hasn't said ANYTHING publically.

17 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:55:57pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

They can't do that. The Catholic League is a lay organization. That said, the Vatican could and should denounce the practice of 'defending' the Church by covering up the truth. That would undercut Donohue effectively.

That is exactly what I wanted to say.
Just couldn't find the words; this stuff is so painful.

18 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:56:11pm

re: #15 laZardo
Thank you laZardo.

19 [deleted]  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:56:20pm
20 Gus  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:56:45pm

Bravo to Diarmuid Martin for taking the right stand. He sets a good example for others in the Archdiocese to follow. I see he studied philosophy at University College Dublin.

21 wee fury  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:57:00pm

re: #19 Westward Ho

Not cool.

22 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:58:21pm

re: #19 Westward Ho

Dude. That is cold.

23 Last Mohican  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:58:22pm

re: #19 Westward Ho

That comment didn't work for me either.

24 gmsc  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:58:58pm

The End of The Innoncence
Don Henley

25 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:59:06pm

re: #8 Westward Ho
and
re: #19 Westward Ho
I have to say that those comments would seem to indicate a lack of seriousness on your part regarding this matter. I hope I'm wrong, but I see NOTHING funny about this at all.

26 jaunte  Mon, May 25, 2009 8:59:07pm

Abuse isn't about sex.

27 Vicious Babushka  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:00:09pm

re: #26 jaunte

Abuse isn't about sex.

It's about power and control.

28 eddiespaghetti  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:00:10pm

re: #19 Westward Ho

re: #19 Westward Ho

Dude, seriously?

29 [deleted]  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:00:17pm
30 capitalist piglet  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:01:37pm

re: #1 Sharmuta

william donohue had no comment.

That guy is embarrassing. I cringe when I see him on television.

31 Last Mohican  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:01:53pm

re: #25 realwest

Very well put, Realwest. And good evening to you out there.

32 gmsc  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:01:58pm

#19 has been removed.

33 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:02:25pm

re: #29 eclectic infidel

This is about children being raped and abused.

Please think next time before casually clicking the post button.


I'm afraid he may have and posted anyway.

34 Last Mohican  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:02:33pm

re: #32 gmsc

#19 has been removed.

Good.

35 Macker  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:03:02pm

I think Westward Ho went about that the wrong way totally. That said, would the celibacy clause removal help solve this or not?

36 Gus  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:03:21pm

re: #32 gmsc

#19 has been removed.

Good. I hate having a post next to something vile. You know, I've seen people make that point before. You think he would have thought to make a point without being so crude and immature.

37 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:03:25pm

re: #35 Macker

Not all the abuse was sexual.

38 Dark_Falcon  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:03:31pm

re: #29 eclectic infidel

This is about children being raped and abused.

Please think next time before casually clicking the post button.

I see what he said in your quote. Charles was right to delete that comment. Westward's comment trivializes a very grave issue. WH, don't be a jerk, think before you post.

39 Last Mohican  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:03:59pm

re: #35 Macker

I think Westward Ho went about that the wrong way totally. That said, would the celibacy clause removal help solve this or not?

No.

I'm not Catholic, and I won't take any position on whether the celibacy requirement should be abolished. But abolishing it would not help to solve this problem.

40 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:04:16pm

re: #31 Last Mohican
Good evening to you, too Last Mohican!
Did you by chance read my #420 on the prior thread?

41 eddiespaghetti  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:04:32pm

Geez, hardly one to lecture. I am up for a wienie / boobie comment from time to time. Context, baby, context...

42 Vicious Babushka  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:04:39pm

re: #35 Macker

I think Westward Ho went about that the wrong way totally. That said, would the celibacy clause removal help solve this or not?

These problems exist in institutions of other religious where the clergy is not required to remain celibate. It is about power and control, not sexual frustration.

43 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:05:38pm

re: #35 Macker

I think Westward Ho went about that the wrong way totally. That said, would the celibacy clause removal help solve this or not?

I doubt it. The real cause of this is unaccountable power over children, and a culture of concealment that has systematically thwarted any real attempt at accountability.

44 Dark_Falcon  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:05:45pm

re: #35 Macker

I think Westward Ho went about that the wrong way totally. That said, would the celibacy clause removal help solve this or not?

No, it would not. The problem is not celibacy, its a poor screening process that does not weed out those likely to be a problem, and an institutional tendency to cover up problems instead of dealing with them.

45 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:06:18pm

re: #35 Macker
I don't think so Macker - rape wasn't the only "abuse" reported - beatings and other things which I'd rather not go into were heavily involved here as well. I think it was more about power and control........sadistic power and control.

46 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:06:41pm

re: #41 eddiespaghetti

This really isn't the topic for that.

47 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:06:54pm

re: #35 Macker

I think Westward Ho went about that the wrong way totally. That said, would the celibacy clause removal help solve this or not?

No.
These incidents are about power, control, perversion.
Not sex.

48 jaunte  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:07:04pm

From the Irish Times:

The system of institutionalisation in Ireland at the time was "a response to a 19th century social problem, which was outdated and incapable of meeting the needs of individual children."

The defects of the system "were exacerbated by the way it was operated by the (religious) congregations."

It also found that "the capital and financial commitment made by the religious was a major factor in prolonging the system" while "the system of funding through capitation grants led to demands by managers (of the institutions) for children to be committed to industrial schools for reasons of economic viability of the institutions."[Link: www.irishtimes.com...]

Captive labor force.

49 Dark_Falcon  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:07:09pm

re: #43 Shiplord Kirel

I doubt it. The real cause of this is unaccountable power over children, and a culture of concealment that has systematically thwarted any real attempt at accountability.

"All power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Those words go a long way to explaining how this happened.

50 Macker  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:07:21pm

re: #45 realwest

re: #47 reine.de.tout

And people like that will end up in Hell if they don't confess and repent.

51 eddiespaghetti  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:08:53pm

re: #46 Sharmuta

That was my point, sorry.

52 Steffan  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:09:12pm

re: #12 Charles

The Pope needs to speak up about this. It's highly disturbing that he hasn't already, and his silence speaks volumes.

I don't recall the Pope of the time (JPII) saying anything about the coverup committed by Mahoney here in LA, either. Mahoney didn't even get a token punishment.

I'm having problems with this line, though: The report, however, did not identify any abusers by name because of a right-to-privacy lawsuit by the Christian Brothers order.

There needs to be a serious, in-depth prosecution of everyone involved. IMNSHO, this is a job for the Spanish Inquisition. A couple of autos de fé, with threats of more, would stop this in a New York minute.

53 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:09:45pm

re: #31 Last Mohican
My #40 was incorrect - my comment was #417, not 420 on the prior thread.

54 Gus  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:10:08pm

re: #39 Last Mohican

No.

I'm not Catholic, and I won't take any position on whether the celibacy requirement should be abolished. But abolishing it would not help to solve this problem.

I don't think it would either. The logic would thus be that men that are celibate are prone to being sexual predators -- which would be false. Or that men that are not celibate would not be prone to being sexual predators.

55 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:10:40pm

re: #50 Macker

re: #47 reine.de.tout

And people like that will end up in Hell if they don't confess and repent.

Yes.
Dark Falcon made a good point about a poor screening process, which, coupled with the institutional tendency to protect their own, I think, in many cases, attracts certain types of people to those jobs.


re: #44 Dark_Falcon

No, it would not. The problem is not celibacy, its a poor screening process that does not weed out those likely to be a problem, and an institutional tendency to cover up problems instead of dealing with them.

56 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:11:18pm

re: #51 eddiespaghetti

OK, cool. I just take this issue personally. It gets emotional for me, and I'm trying very hard right now to remain collected. Thank you for clarifying your comment.

57 HelloDare  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:11:25pm

The Pope has done nothing about Cardinal Law. He's done nothing about Cardinal Mahony. I expect him to do nothing about this.

58 Noah's Arrrgh  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:12:55pm

One of the common misconceptions about the Catholic Church is that it is run in the corporate or military model, with the Pope at the top. In actual practice, though, the dioceses are largely independent, with the bishops responsible for the running their dioceses. This collegiality is extended to religious orders, whose leaders guide the life within the order. For example, Mother Teresa ran her order of the sisters of charity, not the pope, and not the local bishop. Same with the Christian Brothers. Historically, popes have been very reluctant to intervene in any internal affair of the dioceses (and orders), hoping that the bishops are able to sort things out.

This model has some advantage in that it allows the local church more freedom to order its own affairs, but it tends to fail at points like this, because of the lack of close oversight and quick response to problems like these. I am certain, though, a public response from the Vatican will be forthcoming.

I also think to suggest that somehow that Benedict is somehow happy about this, or de facto supports this is way off base.

59 eddiespaghetti  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:13:10pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

De nada! Understood, keep it up.

60 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:14:03pm

re: #47 reine.de.tout

No.
These incidents are about power, control, perversion.
Not sex.

True enough. There are plenty of other examples of perversion that don't incorporate a celibacy factor, but having said that, the dominance of (male) celibacy in the Catholic church suggest to me, a non Catholic, that they have an unhealthy attitude towards sex.

(You are a woman, so I think I can say that to you)

61 Last Mohican  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:14:25pm

re: #40 realwest

Good evening to you, too Last Mohican!
Did you by chance read my #420 on the prior thread?

Just went back and looked. I think it was #417, right?

I feel fortunate that, at least as far as I know, there isn't a group of people sitting around trying to figure out new ways to hate me personally. Charles angers a lot of really tiny, hateful people by taking the principled stands that he does.

On the other hand, if someone does have to get angry about the "map the fallen" project, I'm at least glad that these people are angry because they don't think it honors the soldiers enough. If this thing was covered on Daily Kos, I suspect there be someone there getting mad because they don't think the soldiers are worth remembering at all. I'm not going to look, because I really don't even want to see that now.

62 HelloDare  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:15:00pm

Boston Globe Spotlight Investigation
Abuse in the Catholic Church

63 Irenicum  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:15:38pm

Boy, I showed up a few minutes late. And I think I'm glad. How the hell can ANYONE excuse what went on? I don't want to think what was posted. I'm glad that the Archbishop has decided to speak out. Now it's time for the Pope to do the same.

64 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:16:19pm

re: #60 Naso Tang

True enough. There are plenty of other examples of perversion that don't incorporate a celibacy factor, but having said that, the dominance of (male) celibacy in the Catholic church suggest to me, a non Catholic, that they have an unhealthy attitude towards sex.

(You are a woman, so I think I can say that to you)

Well . . .
I haven't noticed that my Catholic male has a particularly unhealthy attitude towards sex.

65 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:17:00pm

re: #64 reine.de.tout

Well . . .
I haven't noticed that my Catholic male has a particularly unhealthy attitude towards sex.

I'm assuming he is not celibate ....:)

66 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:17:01pm

re: #48 jaunte Geez, I went to your link and read it - now feel worse than I did yesterday when Charles had a thread about this.
These "people" actually encouraged the mass confinement of children so as to get more money.
Almost unfuckingbelievable.
And, as Charles so correctly pointed out in his introduction and in #12, it is way past time the Pope himself spoke out about this. Way past time.

67 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:17:02pm

re: #58 Noah's Arrrgh

One of the common misconceptions about the Catholic Church is that it is run in the corporate or military model...Historically, popes have been very reluctant to intervene in any internal affair of the dioceses (and orders), hoping that the bishops are able to sort things out.

I think it's time for the Pope to abandon historical practice and intervene with the Christian Brothers. Enough is enough. These abusers of children must be brought to justice.

68 HelloDare  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:17:43pm

A history of secrecy, coverups in Boston Archdiocese

Church documents, official testimony, and victim interviews gathered over the past year paint an extraordinary picture of secrecy and deception in the Boston Archdiocese; a culture in which top church officials coddled abusive priests and permitted them to molest again, while stonewalling or paying off the victims of that abuse.

69 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:19:08pm

re: #60 Naso Tang

True enough. There are plenty of other examples of perversion that don't incorporate a celibacy factor, but having said that, the dominance of (male) celibacy in the Catholic church suggest to me, a non Catholic, that they have an unhealthy attitude towards sex.

(You are a woman, so I think I can say that to you)

Naso - I gave you a flippant answer above.
I think what happens isn't because of an unhealthy attitude toward sex.

I think what happens is that some of these orders have very poor or non-existent screening processes, and that the work done by these orders with children attract a certain type of person who finds that that the order's close proximity to children meets their peculiar needs.

70 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:19:24pm

re: #65 Naso Tang

I'm assuming he is not celibate ....:)

Not hardly.

71 Bob Dillon  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:19:25pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

This just goes to show that religiousness is no indicator of morality.

And intense religiousness is a red flag.

72 Last Mohican  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:19:36pm

re: #63 Irenicum

Boy, I showed up a few minutes late. And I think I'm glad. How the hell can ANYONE excuse what went on?

Nobody was excusing it. Just a stupid and insensitive comment that's better left forgotten.

73 G'day Mate  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:20:29pm

Putting a man in a dress and telling him to be celibate for the rest of his life will always be a recipe for disaster.

This disgusting organisation has a long history in Australia of using small children as sex toys while sponging money out of the poorest members of society to repatriate to Rome for no good purpose other than to construct more useless monuments to themselves.

Hardly Christian values.

Anyone who attends the Medieval Mens Club of Rome's "churches" or who sends their kids to one of its schools surely has rock in their heads.

The only bright spot in the Irish report is that finally the game is up and even the most idiotic shills for this criminal enterprise has been silenced.

I weep and pray for the victims.

74 jaunte  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:21:05pm

Irish Times, May 26:

Religious groups defy bishops' call to pay more over abuse


Earlier yesterday the Catholic primate Cardinal Seán Brady, Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin and Bishop of Killaloe Willie Walsh said the deal should be revisited and the 18 congregations concerned should contribute more.
...
Responding to these calls in a statement yesterday afternoon, the 18 religious congregations indicated they would not be revisiting the 2002 deal.
...
The 2002 agreement between the congregations and the State indemnified the religious orders from all redress claims made by victims in exchange for payments and property transfers totalling €127 million. The total bill for the redress scheme is likely to be about €1.3 billion.

75 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:21:22pm

re: #71 Bobibutu

And intense religiousness is a red flag.

I'm not convinced that these folks are intensely religious to begin with. I think they choose to become a member of those religious orders that give them contact with children, when the order's process of selection is not adequate for weeding out these people.

76 theheat  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:21:51pm

re: #12 Charles

I think the silence translates to, "We're tired of paying for the church's mistakes." If he speaks, it will probably be the typical BS stuff about how unfortunate it all is, how tragic, children are so precious, a few bad apples, blah blah.

The Vatican is like Oprah, it has all the money. They like to keep the money. And they like to keep their downline enthusiastic and in denial, a lot like Amway. Admitting this stuff, over and over again, is bad for morale.

77 rhino2  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:22:02pm
78 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:22:08pm

re: #57 HelloDare I'm sorry, but what about Cardinals Law and Mahony?

79 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:22:52pm

re: #75 reine.de.tout

I'm not convinced that these folks are intensely religious to begin with. I think they choose to become a member of those religious orders that give them contact with children, when the order's process of selection is not adequate for weeding out these people.

No one can screen enough. If someone wants to do harm they will do what they need to achieve that goal.

80 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:24:46pm

re: #79 FurryOldGuyJeans

No one can screen enough. If someone wants to do harm they will do what they need to achieve that goal.

No screening process will be 100% accurate, true.
But a better job can be done, and I believe most of the seminaries here in the US have begun a stricter process for acceptance.

81 jaunte  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:25:54pm

re: #66 realwest

Geez, I went to your link and read it - now feel worse than I did yesterday when Charles had a thread about this.
These "people" actually encouraged the mass confinement of children so as to get more money.
Almost unfuckingbelievable.
And, as Charles so correctly pointed out in his introduction and in #12, it is way past time the Pope himself spoke out about this. Way past time.

They appear to be willfully blind to what they're doing.

...those traditions include a culture of denying and minimising abuse when it was revealed. Staggeringly, even after listening to the testimonies of survivors of Goldenbridge before the Ryan commission, the provincial of the order, Sr Helena O’Donoghue, told the commission that she did not accept that there had been either extreme violence used against children or “daily unjustified physical abuse”. She continued to insist that Goldenbridge was a “reasonably effective and caring institution”.

On the practice of child slave labour at Goldenbridge, with children from the age of seven forced, on pain of beatings, to make 60 Rosaries a day (90 on Saturdays) for a commercial manufacturer, Sr Helena described it “as a pleasant activity to while away the time, which was enjoyed by the children and often done to music from the radio”.

The activity was certainly pleasant for the nuns, who made so much money from it that they were able, in the 1950s, to put £1,000 towards the purchase of a holiday home for themselves.
[Link: www.irishtimes.com...]

82 Last Mohican  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:26:49pm

re: #75 reine.de.tout

I'm not convinced that these folks are intensely religious to begin with. I think they choose to become a member of those religious orders that give them contact with children, when the order's process of selection is not adequate for weeding out these people.

Or they may be intensely religious, and yet still wish to abuse children. The human mind is complex, and it can harbor enormous and sometimes horrific contradictions. Those in that position probably suffer very deeply, and they too would benefit if the Church were to do a better job keeping them away from their would-be victims.

83 Bob Dillon  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:26:50pm

re: #75 reine.de.tout

I'm not convinced that these folks are intensely religious to begin with. I think they choose to become a member of those religious orders that give them contact with children, when the order's process of selection is not adequate for weeding out these people.

I meant that as a generality. Your point is well taken.

84 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:27:11pm

re: #58 Noah's Arrrgh
Thank you for the explanation of how the Catholic Church is run and all. I did not know any of that before your comment.
But "I also think to suggest that somehow that Benedict is somehow happy about this, or de facto supports this is way off base." is not something which I think anyone is suggesting.
But, notwithstanding the "independence" given to various orders and all, this is a MAJOR problem, involving thousands and thousands of abused children and Lord knows how many Priests, Nuns and Brothers and I do think it's something that the Pope should address publically.

85 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:28:46pm

re: #61 Last Mohican
I agree and wouldn't go there myself.

86 Irenicum  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:29:21pm

re: #72 Last Mohican

Agreed.

87 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:29:21pm

re: #80 reine.de.tout

No screening process will be 100% accurate, true.
But a better job can be done, and I believe most of the seminaries here in the US have begun a stricter process for acceptance.

I don't buy it. Unless the future priest has an existing record or actually admits to being attracted to children, what good is the screening process?

88 Racer X  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:29:33pm

Darwin Plays Game Theory—and Wins

A computer simulation predicts that ravens should have evolved a behavior called "gang foraging," which is then observed in real ravens.

89 eddiespaghetti  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:29:43pm

Sensing a large anti-Catholic backlash here. I would only say that the problem with the Catholic church is its inability to be transparent about the problem that obviously exists and confront it head on...

If they would simply be more like the military, visa-vi Abu Ghraib, and confront the problem / punish the perpetrators, they would be half way there. The deeper, and more difficult problem to confront, and which continues to persist within the organization is of course: culture....

90 HelloDare  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:31:49pm

re: #78 realwest

The Church allowed Mahony to sandbag investigations, to withhold information. Mahony was hours away from being indicted before he released documents. He still may be indicted. Rome did nothing.

The Pope brought Law to the Vatican away from the jurisdiction of Massachusetts. They didn't take any of this titles or functions away. They may not have rewarded him, but they sure didn't give slap him on the wrist. Nothing. He got to chose the next Pope. Not exactly an example to other priests, bishops and cardinals.

After his resignation, John Paul appointed Law to a post in Rome, putting him in charge of the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, with the title of Archpriest.[1] He is also a member of the Congregations for the Oriental Churches, the Clergy, Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, Evangelisation of Peoples, Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, Catholic Education, Bishops as well as the Pontifical Council for the Family. He held membership of all these congregations and of the council before resigning from the governance of the Archdiocese of Boston, and at that time was also a member of the Pontifical Council for Culture.[2] He participated in the 2005 conclave, which elected Pope Benedict XVI.

91 eddiespaghetti  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:33:09pm

Should have said Organizational Culture...

92 pink freud  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:33:11pm

This is a link to an in-depth comprehensive paper by Zimbardo, entitled:

The Psychology of Power and Evil:
All Power to the Person? To the Situation? To the System?

An excellent read and may help to address some of the power/control/abuse issues raised here.

93 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:33:48pm

re: #89 eddiespaghetti

I don't think there's a Catholic backlash going on here. There are quite a few Catholics at this blog, and some on this thread. It's just when criticism is rightfully due, Lizards feel free to do so.

94 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:34:22pm

re: #87 eclectic infidel

I don't buy it. Unless the future priest has an existing record or actually admits to being attracted to children, what good is the screening process?

I'm not a psychologist.
But there are all sorts of tests that can determine certain tendencies.
And then there's that whole period of time in a seminary, years, where a person can be observed and "tested".
So, no screening process can be 100% accurate.
But there are certainly ways to look for and weed out at least some folks who have tendencies and traits that will not make for a good priest or nun.

95 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:34:28pm

re: #88 Racer X

Darwin Plays Game Theory—and Wins

A computer simulation predicts that ravens should have evolved a behavior called "gang foraging," which is then observed in real ravens.

That's pretty cool.

96 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:35:11pm

re: #80 reine.de.tout

No screening process will be 100% accurate, true.
But a better job can be done, and I believe most of the seminaries here in the US have begun a stricter process for acceptance.

There's more you can do than screen. BSA (Boy Scouts) which includes Cub Scouts has a "two-deep" policy that a leader cannot ever be alone with the scouts. (After screening.) Two adult leaders at all times. (This doesn't extend to silliness, of course, it doesn't apply to your own children.)

I got a call the other day from a Mom wondering if I could pick up her child. I could, but only because my other kids were in the car. This is an old friend, and if I weren't wearing my cub uniform and acting as cub leader, it would have been different, but while in uniform, I really shouldn't be alone with him.

For Boy Scouts, which includes camping, the rules extend to things like: No changing clothes around the leaders, no going around half-dressed at camp, etc.

97 eddiespaghetti  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:35:34pm

re: #93 Sharmuta

No problem with that, just trying whip down the froth...

98 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:36:38pm

re: #96 EmmmieG

There's more you can do than screen. BSA (Boy Scouts) which includes Cub Scouts has a "two-deep" policy that a leader cannot ever be alone with the scouts. (After screening.) Two adult leaders at all times. (This doesn't extend to silliness, of course, it doesn't apply to your own children.)

I got a call the other day from a Mom wondering if I could pick up her child. I could, but only because my other kids were in the car. This is an old friend, and if I weren't wearing my cub uniform and acting as cub leader, it would have been different, but while in uniform, I really shouldn't be alone with him.

For Boy Scouts, which includes camping, the rules extend to things like: No changing clothes around the leaders, no going around half-dressed at camp, etc.

Well, I don't know what's going on elsewhere, but in our parish, any parent wishing to volunteer with the kids has to go through a background check, be fingerprinted, etc., and then observe certain protocols like the one you mentioned.

99 Racer X  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:36:52pm
NASCAR Honors Veterans on Memorial Day

Love it or hate it you have to admire what NASCAR did today, bringing the field to a halt during the 50th Anniversary running of the Coca Cola 500 to honor the men and women who serve.

The race was rained out yesterday and officials decided that since the "good ol boys" would be on the track during the National 3pm "Moment of Silence" that they would throw a yellow and do the same.

Thank You, Nascar.

100 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:37:16pm

re: #81 jaunte
Actually, given

On the practice of child slave labour at Goldenbridge, with children from the age of seven forced, on pain of beatings, to make 60 Rosaries a day (90 on Saturdays) for a commercial manufacturer, Sr Helena described it “as a pleasant activity to while away the time, which was enjoyed by the children and often done to music from the radio”.

The activity was certainly pleasant for the nuns, who made so much money from it that they were able, in the 1950s, to put £1,000 towards the purchase of a holiday home for themselves.

[emphasis added, realwest]
I don't think they were willfully blind at all. Greedy and uncaring about CHILDREN PLACED IN THEIR CARE yes, willfully blind, no.

101 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:37:18pm

re: #97 eddiespaghetti

What froth? Did I miss something? I don't see any froth- just justified criticism at an appalling breech of trust between the Church and it's congregants.

102 Macker  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:38:41pm

re: #99 Racer X

Thank You, Nascar.

Yeeee-HAWWWWW!

103 Irenicum  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:38:57pm

re: #92 pink freud

Said article is saved and will be read.

104 Racer X  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:40:19pm
105 ShanghaiEd  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:40:33pm

re: #73 G'day Mate

Hardly Christian values, for sure. For perspective, though, I would add that physical and sexual abuse of minors is a serious and under-reported problem among any number of Protestant denominations where celibacy is not a factor. Horror stories abound, and tend to stay below the radar because the churches involved are not necessarily affiliated with a larger body in the direct, administrative sense that Catholics are.

The common threads seem to be, as others here have pointed out: inadequate screening of individuals, and the eternal lure of having power over the vulnerable.

106 eddiespaghetti  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:40:47pm

re: #101 Sharmuta

Agreed, we appear to be speaking Latin to one another tonight. I bid you a fine adieu!

107 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:40:52pm

Goodnight lizards. Be well.

108 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:42:04pm

re: #89 eddiespaghetti
I'm sorry if any of my comments made you feel or fear a Catholic backlash here, I only want justice to be done, to the extent it can be done.
Do the activities documented and testified to tarnish the image of the Church, yes, clearly they do but I don't think Catholic haters are involved, just people who's humanity has been grossly offended at what has happened.

109 Irenicum  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:42:11pm

re: #99 Racer X

Very cool!

110 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:43:08pm

re: #106 eddiespaghetti

I'm sorry. Don't go because we're not communicating the best. It happens.

111 Racer X  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:43:46pm

Muslims criticize producers of Seattle police training program

Saying it's not going to take sides in someone else's feud, the Seattle Police Department is going ahead with a racial-awareness training program that has raised concerns among some local Muslims.

They are troubled not by the content of the training program but by the organization that produced it: the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a 32-year-old Los Angeles-based Jewish human-rights organization perhaps best known for its Holocaust education work.

112 eddiespaghetti  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:43:49pm

re: #108 realwest

Dude, seriously, you cannot offend me.

Unless... Wife / Dog / Mom

Goodnight. Sketti is out...

113 Irenicum  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:45:07pm

G'nite all! Tuesday work beckons!

114 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:46:56pm

re: #69 reine.de.tout

Naso - I gave you a flippant answer above.
I think what happens isn't because of an unhealthy attitude toward sex.

I think what happens is that some of these orders have very poor or non-existent screening processes, and that the work done by these orders with children attract a certain type of person who finds that that the order's close proximity to children meets their peculiar needs.

You are correct in practicality, I am sure. But the question is why their goal has become so narrow as to be blind to the nature of humanity? Celibacy, whatever the historical background to the concept, seems to me to be an example of the reduction of principles to the lowest common denominator that fits the entry qualifications.

It is all very well to accept that commitment as a personal choice, but it is dead wrong to think it then qualifies anyone to deal with the problems of people who do not make such commitment, whether or not such a person (the celibate) is dishonest in their commitment.

Either the celibate makes the commitment because they had earlier social/sexual problems or they did so too early to have experienced any such problems. In either case they are not qualified to counsel anyone who does not share their commitment; particularly those who are involuntarily forced into such counseling.

115 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:49:12pm

re: #90 HelloDare Do you have a link for that, please?

116 pink freud  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:49:55pm

One last Memorial Day picture to remind us all of those who have paid with their lives so that we may live free.

117 Last Mohican  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:50:36pm

re: #96 EmmmieG

Excellent point. When screening fails, the system should do what it can to protect the unprotected. I would hope and assume that you don't feel insulted by the Scouts' rules about having other people present. I.e. nobody's implying that you're a child abuser or a child molester by making you adhere to these rules, it's just that this is how the system works.

I encourage everyone to read the Philip Zimbardo review that pink freud linked. Maybe tomorrow morning, when you feel like reading. It contains an interesting discussion of the "fundamental attribution error," i.e. the tendency to attribute others' actions to their disposition, rather than to the power of the situation. In this setting, it suggests that screening won't do as good a job in preventing harm from being done, but changing the way things are done in the institution could help a lot.

118 Gus  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:50:59pm

re: #105 ShanghaiEd

Generally, it always boils down to organizational structures, and human behavior or when boundaries are broken: deviant human behavior. This is not specific to a particular organization. I would think that there is an equal representation within most organizations.

Specifically, this is dealing with the Catholic church so by nature it will deal with Catholic organization. It is something that they must solve within the existing group. These acts are not something that are either inherent nor endorsed. A similar case could be seen involving the sexual predation cases at the Air Force Academy several years ago which was confronted and resolved by the Air Force command.

The best action is first to not be in denial as Diarmuid Martin suggests and to take strong action to prevent these acts from occurring in the future as well as showing compassion to the victims both in the present and in the past.

119 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:51:06pm

re: #105 ShanghaiEd
Actually, when you said

The common threads seem to be, as others here have pointed out: inadequate screening of individuals, and the eternal lure of having power over the vulnerable.

you left out GREED as pointed out by juante in his #81 and my response thereto at #100.

120 American Sabra  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:51:22pm

re: #105 ShanghaiEd

Would be an interesting thing to look at though. Compare abuse within the Catholic church to all other Christian churches who let their clergy marry. Has such a study ever been done?

I think there can be pent up sexual tension remaining celibate that can manifest in unhealthy ways that may not if expressed in a healthy way, if that makes sense... but I'm not a shrink.

Who overseas these Catholic schools? The Church itself? Or does the government have any regulation where religious "boarding" schools are concerned. Here or abroad. Not that that would "cure" the problem, but an unbiased eye watching seems like a good thing.

121 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:53:52pm

re: #112 eddiespaghetti
I'm glad for that - as I said, it was never my intent to offend anyone, just to get to the truth and the justice that is or should be involved.
And my comment #108 still stands.

122 Last Mohican  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:53:54pm

re: #111 Racer X

Oh, for goodness sake.

"The [Simon Wiesenthal] center has an anti-Muslim agenda, to be frank," contends Arsalan Bukhari, president of the Washington state chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Dear Mr. Bukhari:

1. No, it doesn't.
2. F*ck off, you piece of sh*t Wahhabist-funded apologist for genocidal terrorists.

Sincerely,

Last Mohican

123 kynna  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:54:26pm

When abuse is covered-up and ignored for ages, that very fact becomes a recruiting tool for most depraved. Not all priests are abusers. I am so sad for those who truly feel the call and are good and righteous men. They will forever be tarred by the disgusting faction of their organization and the apologists that aid them.

This is a horrifying story and it makes me sick to my stomach. There is no way I could ever begin to understand the mindset of someone who would do these things to children. It's terrifying that so many adults were involved and so many others looked the other way.

124 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:55:55pm

re: #116 pink freud Thank you pink freud - that photo goes well with my comment on the DT today.

125 jcm  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:57:19pm

re: #116 pink freud

One last Memorial Day picture to remind us all of those who have paid with their lives so that we may live free.

Arlington, aerial view.

126 pink freud  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:57:37pm

re: #124 realwest

You're welcome, Real. And thank you for your post earlier.

127 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:57:53pm

re: #122 Last Mohican
Well said, my friend, well said!

128 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:59:16pm

re: #126 pink freud Thank you.

129 HelloDare  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:02:27pm

re: #115 realwest

About Law's move to Rome.

Mahony may still be indicted: This from January 2009.

Cardinal Mahony under federal fraud probe over abusive priests, sources say

The U.S. attorney in Los Angeles has launched a federal grand jury investigation into Cardinal Roger M. Mahony in connection with his response to the alleged molestation of children by priests in the Los Angeles Archdiocese, according to two law enforcement sources familiar with the case.

Also:

On July 16, 2007, Mahony and the Roman Catholic Church in Los Angeles apologized for abuses by priests after 508 victims reached a record-breaking settlement worth $660m (£324m), with an average of $1.3m for each plaintiff. Mahony described the abuse as a "terrible sin and crime", after a series of trials into sex abuse claims since the 1940s were to begin. The agreement, if approved by a judge, will settle all 15 upcoming pedophilia trials against the Los Angeles archdiocese and avoids the threat of Mahony being forced to testify about how the Church dealt with abuses spanning the 1940s to 1990s. Since 2002 nearly 1,000 people filed sexual abuse claims in California. The $660m-deal dwarfs the $157m settlement paid by the Archdiocese of Boston.[6]


Mahony made the above deal hours before he would have been indicted and forced to testify. He held out till the last minute.

130 Last Mohican  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:05:09pm

re: #116 pink freud

re: #125 jcm

Thank you both for those. I'm gonna head off to sleep now. And rather than my last thought here being how unfortunate it is that my country harbors despicable people like those of CAIR-Seattle, I'm now going to end this day the way I started it: thinking of how fortunate I am to live in the United States. And how fortunate I am that so many have been willing to lay down their lives to protect this country, and that so many more stand ready to do the same today.

Good night all!

131 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:05:24pm

re: #125 jcm Hello jcm - if you navigate around that map and blow it up a little, go straight up from Roosevelt Dr. to the first steps up to the Tomb of the Unknowns, the turn sharp right - about 50 meters away is the gravesite of Audie Murphy, in Section 46.

132 pink freud  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:06:01pm

re: #130 Last Mohican

Goodnight, Last Mohican. Sleep well.

133 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:07:47pm

Signing off. Goodnight.

134 pink freud  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:08:14pm

Goodnight, Naso. Sleep well.

135 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:09:47pm

re: #129 HelloDare
Shit. Thank you for that information. I don't know how it is that I didn't recognize the information about Law and then about Mahony myself. Thank you for that information.

136 Irenike  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:12:18pm

There has been talk on this thread that the sexually repressed atmosphere of the Catholic Church has somehow caused eruptions of pedophilia. I don't buy it.

Ancient Rome -- which was quite open, sexually -- had a class of children who were used as sex slaves. Holland (if my memory serves me correctly) almost had a political party of pedophiles a few years ago, but they were stopped.

The problem isn't sexual repression, it is evil values. Nobody protected those children from the evil predators. Shame on the Church for doing such a crappy job of burning these monsters out from their midst. It is inexcusable, and the blood of innocents is on the hands of those who knew about it and did nothing.

137 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:12:40pm

Well y'all - this has been a very emotionally trying day for me so I'm off to try to sleep.
I hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

And God Bless America and watch over her fallen heros.

138 jcm  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:13:20pm

re: #131 realwest

Hello jcm - if you navigate around that map and blow it up a little, go straight up from Roosevelt Dr. to the first steps up to the Tomb of the Unknowns, the turn sharp right - about 50 meters away is the gravesite of Audie Murphy, in Section 46.

Audie Murphy: TO HELL AND BACK

139 tradewind  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:13:44pm

re: #120 American Sabra

That may exacerbate it, but there are plenty of examples of Baptist, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, you name it.... spiritual leaders and ministers and church officials of other faiths who are not celibate, who have been revealed as child molesters. They don't get the same attention as those in the Catholic Church, nor does their denomination.
If their different sects/ organizations were as old and entrenched and structured as the Roman Catholic church, with as much to, in their view, ' protect', I don't doubt they would behave similarly and circle the wagons until forced to cooperate.
It's awful, but then these are individuals who are engaged in awful behavior. It's certainly not uniquely Catholic.

140 pink freud  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:14:07pm

re: #137 realwest

G'nite Real.

141 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:17:45pm

re: #136 Irenike
Sorry, had to come back and reply - as many others have noted, it was not the rapes alone that these institutions engaged in or permitted others to engage in, it is the entire range of cruelty and abuse to children entrusted to their care - on a continual basis - that is also most grievously discussed here and in the report itself.
Now I am out of here.
Goodnight again, all and I do hope I get the chance to see you all down the road.

142 pat  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:18:02pm

I have missed most of the discussion, but I am hardly perturbed by the story. I doubt the Vatican even has had time to digest the creepiness of the story. It surely is no reflection on the Vatican. They are not law enforcement. They are not adoption officials. This is BS.
This religion is facing a reality that it has ignored for 1400 years. I say it shit can this celibacy thing. But that does not make it evil.

143 Westward Ho  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:19:32pm

I apologize for the flippant remark but stand by my provisional hypothesis that enforced celibacy in a highly pornographized culture is the prime suspect behind this systemic child abuse.

144 HelloDare  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:20:33pm

re: #135 realwest

Here is more on how Mahony made the deal at the last minute to avoid testifying. It was despicable. He strung these abused people out for years then at the last minute he settled to save his own skin. He would have been nailed on the stand and he knew it.

[Link: www.ft.com...]

145 Throbert McGee  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:20:35pm

re: #114 Naso Tang

It is all very well to accept that commitment [to celibacy] as a personal choice, but it is dead wrong to think it then qualifies anyone to deal with the problems of people who do not make such commitment, whether or not such a person (the celibate) is dishonest in their commitment.

Or as George Bernard Shaw put it, more succinctly:

"Why would anyone listen to the Pope's advice on sex? Anything the Pope knows about sex, he shouldn't."

Chilluns, there is some wisdom that comes only with practical experience. (One such piece of wisdom, for example: having an orgasm under circumstances that can't possibly lead to the fertilization of an egg does not necessarily cause a man to feel distanced from God. Amazing, yet true!)

146 realwest  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:21:56pm

re: #138 jcm Audie Murphy:
"By the end of World War II he was a legend within the 3rd Infantry Division.[3] His principal U.S. decorations included the Medal of Honor, Distinguished Service Cross, two Silver Stars, the Legion of Merit, two Bronze Stars with Valor device, and three Purple Hearts (all for genuine combat wounds). Murphy participated in campaigns in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, France and Germany, as denoted by his European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal with one silver battle star (denoting five campaigns), four bronze battle stars, plus a bronze arrowhead representing his two amphibious assault landings at Sicily and southern France. During the French Campaign, Murphy was awarded two Presidential Citations, one from the 3rd Inf, Division, and one from the 15th Inf. Regiment during the Holtzwihr action.

The French government awarded Murphy its highest award, the Legion of Honor (Grade of Chevalier).[8] He also received two Croix de Guerre medals from France[8] and the Croix de Guerre 1940 Palm from Belgium.[8] In addition, Murphy was awarded the Combat Infantryman Badge. (A complete list of his awards and decorations appears later in this article.) He spent 29 months overseas and just under two years in combat with the 3rd Infantry Division, all before he turned 21.[4] [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Good night again and again, may God Bless America and watch over her fallen heros.

147 ShanghaiEd  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:24:14pm

re: #119 realwest

Actually, when you said

you left out GREED as pointed out by juante in his #81 and my response thereto at #100.

Greed, definitely. Keeps popping up like a bad penny, in so many tragic situations.

148 redc1c4  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:31:08pm

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.
Gilbert K. Chesterton

back when i was young and had a future, there was a parish priest that was *very* insistent that i become an altar boy (i didn't).....

years later, it turns out he's a pervert and had been molesting altar boys at my parish.....

149 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:37:21pm

re: #148 redc1c4

Glad you missed that!

150 Westward Ho  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:37:53pm

Article linking child molesting with celibacy.Clerical celibacy and paedophilic priests

Clerical Celibacy and Pedophilic Priests

Reports of priests sexually molesting children have come to light in virtually every major U.S. city. The Catholic Church has paid over $2 billion in damages to victims, who are often emotionally scarred for decades.

The Church has acknowledged, moreover, that 13,000 credible accusations of sexual abuse have been made against Catholic clerics since 1950.

There is strong evidence that this widespread problem is caused, at least in part, by the Catholic Church's clerical celibacy requirement and its other sexually repressive doctrines. Persons concerned about the problem should therefore urge Catholic leaders to reexamine and modify their teachings about sex.

Desmond Morris's classic book on human behavior, The Naked Ape, reports that homosexual behavior is often "seen in situations where the ideal sexual object (a member of the opposite sex) is unavailable. This applies in many groups of animals."

Morris goes on to state: "Similar situations occur with high frequency in our own species and the response is much the same. If either males or females cannot for some reason obtain sexual access to their opposite members, they will find sexual outlets in other ways." (Emphasis added.)

Psychiatrist and ex-priest A. W. Richard Sipe likewise relates: "Doctor Lewis Hill, former medical director of Sheppard and Enoch Pratt Hospital in Towson, Maryland, used to tell his resident psychiatrists, 'Man is a loving animal, and he is going to love whatever he is near.' The sexual histories of farm boys frequently recorded passing involvements with animals."

These facts about human sexuality indicate that Catholic priests, who are required by their Church to remain celibate and taught to abhor sexual relationships with women, might in some cases seek outlets for their sexuality in other ways. The behavior could include homosexuality or pedophilia.
In fact, statements by Dr. Jay Feierman support a link between sexual repression and pedophilia. As a psychiatrist who has met with hundreds of pedophilic priests at a Catholic treatment center in New Mexico, Feierman is in a position to recognize the connection.

Feierman says celibacy is not "a natural state for humans to be in." Pointing to the celibacy requirement as a cause of clergy abuse of children, he explains: "If you tell a man that he's not allowed to have particular friends, he's not allowed to be affectionate, he's not allowed to be in love, he's not allowed to be a sexual being, you shouldn't be surprised at anything that happens."

Research by the University of New Hampshire's David Finkelhor, Ph.D., supports the same position. Finkelhor, a recognized expert on the study of sexual abuse of children, has shown that repressive sexual attitudes linked to many religions may predispose some persons toward sexual activities with children.

Further support for that causal connection is provided by Dr. John Money, a leading expert on sexual violence. Money has pioneered treatments for deviate sexuality at Johns Hopkins Medical School. He says people raised in conditions where sex is viewed as evil, and where sexual curiosity is a punishable offense, are likely to end up with warped sexual identities. Those surroundings are often produced by conservative religions.

Money describes the harmful effects of such environments: "In girls, often you extinguish the lust completely, so that they can never have an orgasm, and marriage becomes a dreary business where you put up with sex to serve the maternal instinct. In boys, sex gets redirected into abnormal channels." (Emphasis added.)

Money's observations as to the different effects of repressive sexual environments on males and females may explain why pedophilia is a much greater problem among priests than among nuns, who also must take a celibacy vow.

....

151 ShanghaiEd  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:38:40pm

re: #143 Westward Ho

I apologize for the flippant remark but stand by my provisional hypothesis that enforced celibacy in a highly pornographized culture is the prime suspect behind this systemic child abuse.

Highly pornographized culture, yes. But why would that sexual pressure result in the abuse of a child, rather than in consensual sex with an adult, unless something very different is at play?

152 redc1c4  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:41:03pm

re: #149 Floral Giraffe

Glad you missed that!

not half as glad as me.......

he was a bishop by then, and was abusing other priests.

there's something rotten in Denmark.

153 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:42:05pm

re: #152 redc1c4

Well, how about a rat update, just for fun?

I whacked a possum, with a stick tonight.
It fell off the wall, hissing....

154 Westward Ho  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:43:21pm

re: #151 ShanghaiEd


Consensual sex with an adult is extremely risky. With children no body needs to know.

155 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:45:29pm

re: #154 Westward Ho

It's not about sex, it's about POWER.

156 ShanghaiEd  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:46:35pm

re: #150 Westward Ho

Thanks for the article. Very interesting. I need to read more about these two doctors' research, because in overview it seems to me that they make the jump from homosexuality to pedophilia with disturbing ease. Two very different things, though there's a widespread political agenda to conflate them.

157 wiffersnapper  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:47:08pm

I really hope the Vatican doesn't follow in Donohue's footsteps here (or ever).

158 Westward Ho  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:48:00pm

re: #155 Floral Giraffe

Do you think they would be systematically molesting children if they were married and had children?

159 solomonpanting  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:49:55pm

Drive-by OT prediction:

There's going to be a major earthquake in California tomorrow after the state Supreme Court overturns last November's Proposition 8.
Have a good night.

160 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:50:12pm

re: #158 Westward Ho

Who knows, with that kind of damaged psyche?
How could you even guess?
"Sex" with a child is not about sex, it's about dominance.
And, it's not nice.

161 ShanghaiEd  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:52:11pm

re: #154 Westward Ho

Consensual sex with an adult is extremely risky. With children no body needs to know.

Hmmm. Logic tells me just the opposite. I think Floral Giraffe is onto this one: it's not the sex at all, but the power.

If sex were the main objective, a priest having an affair with an adult would only risk being defrocked. Sex with a child, if discovered, would (should) mean jail and ruin. Right?

162 Gus  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:54:45pm

re: #150 Westward Ho

A rather odd article. He is citing Desmond Morris who claims that homosexuality is a result of a lack of sexual object or:

Desmond Morris's classic book on human behavior, The Naked Ape, reports that homosexual behavior is often "seen in situations where the ideal sexual object (a member of the opposite sex) is unavailable. This applies in many groups of animals."

Then he goes on to say:

Psychiatrist and ex-priest A. W. Richard Sipe likewise relates: "Doctor Lewis Hill, former medical director of Sheppard and Enoch Pratt Hospital in Towson, Maryland, used to tell his resident psychiatrists, 'Man is a loving animal, and he is going to love whatever he is near.' The sexual histories of farm boys frequently recorded passing involvements with animals."

This reeks of popular psychology. The logic here is with men a lack of intimate partners leads to either homosexuality or bestiality. Nowhere in this article will you find any mention of other sexual outlets.

163 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:57:38pm

IMHO, it's a Troll.

164 Throbert McGee  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:57:47pm

re: #143 Westward Ho

I apologize for the flippant remark but stand by my provisional hypothesis that enforced celibacy in a highly pornographized culture is the prime suspect behind this systemic child abuse.

I would suggest that it's not the "enforced" celibacy that screws up the brains of some Catholic priests, monks, and nuns -- since, after all, the Church has never been able to prevent members of religious orders from sneaking off to have sex with adult women or men. Rather, the glorification of celibacy as a moral ideal, and the accompanying denigration of normal adult sexuality, may be contributing factors.

I was raised Catholic, and I have come to think that the doctrine of Mary's Perpetual Virginity is possibly the single most awful idea the Church has ever produced. According to the Church, God said to Mary and Joseph: "Guess what! As your special reward for giving birth to my Son, Mary, and as your special reward for being his stepfather, Joseph, I'm going to bless you by taking away those bothersome libidos that other grown-up humans have, so that you can enjoy a completely Platonic marriage and never even think about having sex! Isn't that super?"

165 redc1c4  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:58:35pm

re: #153 Floral Giraffe

Well, how about a rat update, just for fun?

I whacked a possum, with a stick tonight.
It fell off the wall, hissing....

4 legged rat update:

little, i.e. none, traffic tonight..... i haven't done any official studies, but late moon periods appear to have less engagement opportunities.

/still scanning though %-)

166 Gus  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:58:52pm

re: #154 Westward Ho

What? There's a pathology involved. You're making it sound as though it's a choice for people. NORMAL celibates don't sit around thinking about alternatives and what they can get away with.

167 redc1c4  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:00:28pm

re: #161 ShanghaiEd

Hmmm. Logic tells me just the opposite. I think Floral Giraffe is onto this one: it's not the sex at all, but the power.

If sex were the main objective, a priest having an affair with an adult would only risk being defrocked. Sex with a child, if discovered, would (should) mean jail and ruin. Right?

you misspelled "execution".......

sorry, but i'm not real forgiving on this issue.

168 Westward Ho  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:00:51pm

re: #161 ShanghaiEd

I think he thought that he could get away with child abuse because most children would not know & it became a problem only after it became a habit.

I will also ask you the counterfactual question?

Do you think they would be systematically molesting children if they were married and had children?
169 slokat  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:01:28pm

re: #153 Floral Giraffe


I whacked a possum, with a stick tonight.
It fell off the wall, hissing....

I found a young possum that had snuck into my office while the door was open, a couple of weeks ago. It was on top of a book shelf. Grabbed it with the log tongs from the fireplace & threw it out into the driveway.

Dirty filthy overgrown rats, pooped all over the place.

170 pink freud  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:01:34pm

re: #150 Westward Ho

I linked over to your article, WH. Not impressed, either with the legitimacy or tenor of that site and article. "humanism by Joe" just doesn't quite have a scholarly or substantial feel to it.

There was, however, a referenced name that I recognized: Dr. John Money. Mr. Money is famous for his disastrously failed concept of "it's easier to dig a ditch than to build a post" ...as pertains to the gender reassignment (under his instruction and care) of young David Reimer, a child whose penis was burned off during a botched circumcision.

Based on what I know of the history of this man, combined with my own knowledge that I have picked up over the last few years, I would hesitate to credit much legitimacy to anything with his name attached.

171 redc1c4  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:01:41pm

re: #153 Floral Giraffe

Well, how about a rat update, just for fun?

I whacked a possum, with a stick tonight.
It fell off the wall, hissing....

and then got up and walked away.....

/be careful 'round them: they can carry many bugs.

172 freetoken  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:03:07pm

re: #164 Throbert McGee

[...] Rather, the glorification of celibacy as a moral ideal, and the accompanying denigration of normal adult sexuality, may be contributing factors.

I was raised Catholic, and I have come to think that the doctrine of Mary's Perpetual Virginity is possibly the single most awful idea the Church has ever produced. [...]

Interesting thesis and one which I believe has plenty of subscribers.

173 pink freud  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:03:59pm

re: #159 solomonpanting

Drive-by OT prediction:

There's going to be a major earthquake in California tomorrow after the state Supreme Court overturns last November's Proposition 8.
Have a good night.

Makes me wonder why they even bothered with the expense and formality of an election ....

174 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:04:27pm

re: #168 Westward Ho

I think he thought that he could get away with child abuse because most children would not know & it became a problem only after it became a habit.

I will also ask you the counterfactual question?

The children would "not know"?
WTH is that about?

And "it became a problem only after it became a habit"?

WTH is wrong with you?

175 Gus  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:05:22pm

re: #170 pink freud

Dr. Money was a borderline kook.

176 pink freud  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:07:23pm

re: #162 Gus 802

Not to mention the hour and a half that went by between his first [deleted] post on that matter until he finally found what he considered to be supporting *evidence* over at "humanity by Joes" place. Nope, doesn't fly.

177 ShanghaiEd  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:08:56pm

re: #160 Floral Giraffe

Good point. Sex is forbidden within celibacy, but pedophilia is really forbidden, period, for all. Is it possible that the more restricted one's view of the world becomes, by intense dogma, the greater allure the "forbidden" takes on, in imagination?

Just a thought. Fascinating, and scary, topic, to me.

178 iLikeCandy  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:08:59pm

re: #164 Throbert McGee


God said to Mary and Joseph: "Guess what! As your special reward for giving birth to my Son, Mary, and as your special reward for being his stepfather, Joseph, I'm going to bless you by taking away those bothersome libidos that other grown-up humans have, so that you can enjoy a completely Platonic marriage and never even think about having sex! Isn't that super?"

Equally bizarre is heaven -- or should I say "heaven" -- which is sex-free.

Also raised Catholic here.

179 Throbert McGee  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:09:14pm

Following up to my #164: I don't mean to endorse Westward Ho's suggestion that the RCC's policy on celibacy is anything close to being a primary or central factor in priests becoming pedophiles. If celibacy plays a contributing role at all, I think it's a small and secondary one.

180 Killian Bundy  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:09:57pm

COD6

/oh yeah, Infinity Ward back in the saddle

181 redc1c4  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:10:24pm

re: #176 pink freud

Not to mention the hour and a half that went by between his first [deleted] post on that matter until he finally found what he considered to be supporting *evidence* over at "humanity by Joes" place. Nope, doesn't fly.

what are you saying? bricks can fly.........

182 Gus  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:11:12pm

re: #176 pink freud

Not to mention the hour and a half that went by between his first [deleted] post on that matter until he finally found what he considered to be supporting *evidence* over at "humanity by Joes" place. Nope, doesn't fly.

I'm kind of scratching my head here. The initial comment was in the gutter. Now it's an odd combination of controversial 60s pop-psychology combined with accusations and excuses.

183 Westward Ho  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:11:37pm

re: #174 Floral Giraffe

What the fuck is wrong with you? I am replying to #161 Shangai Ed about it being easier to get away with child abuse than consensual sex with an adult as a motivation for this behaviour by priests.

If your reading skills do not allow you to cross reference posts do not get into a lengthy argument on a blog.

184 redc1c4  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:12:12pm

well, if'n we're gonna be on this tangent all night, i'm gonna go break open the rum locker.......

/ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

keel haul the vermin i say!

185 redc1c4  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:13:17pm

re: #183 Westward Ho

What the fuck is wrong with you? I am replying to #161 Shangai Ed about it being easier to get away with child abuse than consensual sex with an adult as a motivation for this behaviour by priests.

If your reading skills do not allow you to cross reference posts do not get into a lengthy argument on a blog.

physician, heal thyself.

186 Gus  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:14:25pm

re: #183 Westward Ho

You're clueless. Whomever doesn't sit around thinking about what's easier "to get away with" and then just act on it.

187 pink freud  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:15:19pm

re: #182 Gus 802

I'm kind of scratching my head here. The initial comment was in the gutter. Now it's an odd combination of controversial 60s pop-psychology combined with accusations and excuses.

It lacks the clear-headedness that I am comfortable with. The original post was enough for permanent scroll by for me. I just had to address the John Money thing. Quacks are quacks.

188 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:15:35pm

Most children don't know there's something wrong with abuse. They don't know it's abnormal behavior on the part of the adult.

189 Gus  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:15:43pm

re: #184 redc1c4

well, if'n we're gonna be on this tangent all night, i'm gonna go break open the rum locker.......

/ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

keel haul the vermin i say!

Here's mud in yer eye.

190 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:15:53pm

It's also easier to intimidate a child into remaining silent.

191 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:16:34pm

Though, I'm not trying to make excuses for Westward Ho's comments- I'm just sayin'.

192 ShanghaiEd  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:18:34pm

re: #173 pink freud

Makes me wonder why they even bothered with the expense and formality of an election ....

Why, to strike a blow for God and the Right...er, the right! Heathen... :)

193 Gus  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:19:02pm

re: #187 pink freud

It lacks the clear-headedness that I am comfortable with. The original post was enough for permanent scroll by for me. I just had to address the John Money thing. Quacks are quacks.

When I see Money I tend to think that they focus is then on appurtenances. Money would promote a sex change for someone that suffered a war injury. That's the kind of pre-war (1938) psychology I am reminded of.

194 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:19:55pm

I'm out.
ANYTHING to do with "sex" and a child is a power trip.
No need to explain more than that.
No possible way to justify the behavior.
It's sick.

195 pink freud  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:20:39pm

re: #193 Gus 802

Yep.. Money is now held up in instruction as almost a neanderthal view of psych.

196 redc1c4  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:23:44pm

re: #188 Sharmuta

Most children don't know there's something wrong with abuse. They don't know it's abnormal behavior on the part of the adult.

Hell is for children

197 redc1c4  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:24:54pm

re: #188 Sharmuta

Most children don't know there's something wrong with abuse. They don't know it's abnormal behavior on the part of the adult.

at the very least, it takes years...... the damage, however, starts immediately.

198 ShanghaiEd  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:25:48pm

re: #168 Westward Ho

Do you think they would be systematically molesting children if they were married and had children?

Well, seeing as marriage and parenthood certainly doesn't prevent people from molesting their own children, why would it prevent them from molesting the children of others?

199 Sharmuta  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:26:07pm

red- I can't take this thread anymore.

200 ShanghaiEd  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:29:36pm

Enjoyed the discussion, folks. I'm headed out to a novel about medieval Norway and, very soon after, to sleep.

201 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:30:51pm

re: #168 Westward Ho

I think he thought that he could get away with child abuse because most children would not know & it became a problem only after it became a habit.

I will also ask you the counterfactual question?

Nasty Troll. Reported.

202 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:33:39pm

re: #183 Westward Ho

re: #183 Westward Ho

What the fuck is wrong with you? I am replying to #161 Shangai Ed about it being easier to get away with child abuse than consensual sex with an adult as a motivation for this behaviour by priests.

If your reading skills do not allow you to cross reference posts do not get into a lengthy argument on a blog.

Thank you for the compliment.

203 Westward Ho  Mon, May 25, 2009 11:40:22pm

re: #198 ShanghaiEd

Well, seeing as marriage and parenthood certainly doesn't prevent people from molesting their own children, why would it prevent them from molesting the children of others?

I think that the operating word is systematic which is applicable to this case. I do not think that there would be this level of child abuse in the catholic church if priests were allowed to be married. I guess we will never know for sure till it happens.

204 nyc redneck  Tue, May 26, 2009 6:58:38am

there is a special place in hell for these monsters who preyed on helpless innocent
children. and those who knew what was going on and didn't speak up are the worst sort of enablers.
it is gut wrenching to see the depths of depravity that human beings can sink. especially those who were in a position to do good but chose evil.
what a colossal failure of the human spirit.
the pope needs to address this now.

205 MacDuff  Tue, May 26, 2009 7:11:22am

re: #73 G'day Mate

While I have no intention of defending the indefensible, the broad brush with which you painted the Catholic Church comes across as bigotry and it sullies millions of fine individuals in the process.

Your quote:"Putting a man in a dress and telling him to be celibate for the rest of his life will always be a recipe for disaster" is simplistic, intolerant and wreaks of an anti-Catholic bias that seems to be the motivating factor in your post.

The people involved in these acts should, and must be dealt with harshly as should those who looked askance, but using these crimes as a basis for bashing the Church, or the faith, as a whole is out of line IMO.

206 Zimriel  Tue, May 26, 2009 7:12:33am

re: #52 Steffan

IMNSHO, this is a job for the Spanish Inquisition. A couple of autos de fé, with threats of more, would stop this in a New York minute.

I don't think the Congregatio pro Doctrina Fidei (colloquially, "The Inquisition") can get involved. The Congregatio is structured to pore over published statements by approved priests and theologians, and doesn't have a background in criminal investigations. Only if the order was publishing papers justifying what they did could there be a case for heresy.

The Church has precedent for shutting down orders which are involved in child abuse. They did that to a few of them during the Renaissance, some of which were otherwise reknowned for producing scientists and scholars. There was a book on that recently but unfortunately I've forgotten the title.

207 Bubba the Magnificent  Tue, May 26, 2009 7:23:50am

re: #90 HelloDare

The Pope brought Law to the Vatican away from the jurisdiction of Massachusetts. They didn't take any of this titles or functions away. They may not have rewarded him, but they sure didn't give slap him on the wrist. Nothing. He got to chose the next Pope. Not exactly an example to other priests, bishops and cardinals.

In actuality the fact that Law was removed to Rome (which I believe was very wrong) didn't prevent him from being prosecuted, the Attorney General in Massachusetts did come out and state that legally Cardinal Law could not be held responsible for what he did because of the simple fact that the statute of limitations had expired.

There were (and are) many of us in the church who wish that there was some legal way in which Cardinal Law could have been prosecuted.

208 ducktrapper  Tue, May 26, 2009 8:00:28am

Canadians or anyone following the residential school scandal in Canada may wonder how this could have occured in Ireland where race was apparently not an issue. Perhaps it's a product of institutional abuse rather than racism. That is, anyone in the care of fanatics is likely to suffer some sort of abuse. I, at least, got to go home at 4 P.M. every day. However, if that's the case I want some money from the government, as well. Why not? I was beaten and humiliated by nuns and their minions, too. Who wasn't?

209 Land Shark  Tue, May 26, 2009 8:10:27am

re: #12 Charles

The Pope needs to speak up about this. It's highly disturbing that he hasn't already, and his silence speaks volumes.

I agree 100%. And his silence makes it seem like the Catholic Church hasn't learned anything over the past decades in dealing with this issue. It's tragic.

210 samsgran1948  Tue, May 26, 2009 9:27:19am

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

They can't do that. The Catholic League is a lay organization. That said, the Vatican could and should denounce the practice of 'defending' the Church by covering up the truth. That would undercut Donohue effectively.

Unfortunately, in many respects, the Vatican still holds on to pre-Vatican II thinking. You'll notice that both JPII and Benedict were ordained pre-Vatican II. While both men had/have admirable qualities, both men come from a time when questioning the Church on anything was totally unthinkable. And most members of the Curia have the same roots. It took JP II years to realize that American parents were not going to shut up and put up, and by the time he did, the Church was in a world of hurt. Benny and the high mucky-mucks of the Irish Church really need to get out in front of this thing and accept ownership. They think they have problems in Europe now? Just let them duck and weave on this one.

211 im_gumby_damnit  Tue, May 26, 2009 1:43:57pm

Respectfully, a good number of posts about this issue are just plain wrong.

The Pope has spoken out about this already (and I think he will again). Here is an excerpt from a speech he made a while back to the Bishops of Ireland:

In the exercise of your pastoral ministry, you have had to respond in recent years to many heart-rending cases of sexual abuse of minors. These are all the more tragic when the abuser is a cleric. The wounds caused by such acts run deep, and it is an urgent task to rebuild confidence and trust where these have been damaged. In your continuing efforts to deal effectively with this problem, it is important to establish the truth of what happened in the past, to take whatever steps are necessary to prevent it from occurring again, to ensure that the principles of justice are fully respected and, above all, to bring healing to the victims and to all those affected by these egregious crimes.


A copy of the Pope's speech is available on the Vatican website for anyone who cares to look at it.

The idea that the Pope has his head in the sand on this issue and wants to hide the truth from the public is belied by his own public commentary on the subject.

212 capt26thga  Tue, May 26, 2009 4:30:22pm

Well... I haven't heard of any priests getting their gonads removed from former molested boys. Likewise when the girls grow up why not go back to the convent and do some getting even. I think I would have to get my pound of flesh.

213 FeBru  Tue, May 26, 2009 10:03:17pm

Re: #208
"Perhaps it's a product of institutional abuse rather than racism. That is, anyone in the care of fanatics is likely to suffer some sort of abuse".
I wholeheartedly agree.

The Christian Brothers also operated in Scotland and I know of one person who described them in his published autobiography as "anything but Christian".
Many Organizations and Institutions have dark histories regarding the mistreatment of children. Some of this cruelty went unreported because it was "acceptable" at the time. Sadly, children had no rights for the longest time. Read about the case of Mary Ellen Wilson which led to the first child protection laws in America. I believe Mary Wilson died in 1950s, which wasn't too long ago when you think about it. Another interesting and insightful book to read is "The Littlest Immigrants" which was published several years ago (can't remember the author, sorry) and documents the horrible treatment of orphaned/institutionalized children by the British Government. These children were shipped off to the colonies basically to "clean up the streets" and empty the Poor Houses. Many of the children were not orphaned, they had been placed into care by families who were unable to care for the child at that time and apparently some of the children were sent abroad without parental consent or knowledge.Organizations like Dr Barnardo's Homes, Quarrier's Homes etc. arranged the journey, hence the children being referred to as "The Home Children" Some were terribly abused by their "adoptive" families and received zero compensation. The Channel Islands were recently embroiled in a scandal over alleged severe abuse at a children's home. Allegations were also made that the local police were aware and did not interfere. If a child ran away, the police would simply pick the child up at the ferry depot (no other way off the island)and return the child to the Home.
Bear in mind too that many of those who carried out the abuse were also likely subjected to similar abuse when they were young - the old saying "Today's catcher, Tomorrows Pitcher" comes to mind. No-one intervened in their cases so it may have seemed acceptable behavior for who knows how many generations. Thankfully we are at a point where we encourage children to speak up and no longer take the word of "respected" members of a community over the word of the victim.


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