New Photos of Apollo Landing Sites from Lunar Orbit

Science • Views: 5,841

NASA’s Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter has sent back pictures of the landing sites of five Apollo moon missions; after 40 years in the airless environment, you can still see the tracks of the Apollo 14 astronauts, where they walked through the lunar dust to set up some scientific instruments: LRO Sees Apollo Landing Sites.

Image credit: NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center/Arizona State University

The Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera, or LROC, was able to image five of the six Apollo sites, with the remaining Apollo 12 site expected to be photographed in the coming weeks.

The satellite reached lunar orbit June 23 and captured the Apollo sites between July 11 and 15. Though it had been expected that LRO would be able to resolve the remnants of the Apollo mission, these first images came before the spacecraft reached its final mapping orbit. Future LROC images from these sites will have two to three times greater resolution.

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159 comments
1 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:21:10am

Amazing.

2 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:21:30am

Our astronauts really, really were on the moon!

3 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:21:50am
4 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:24:15am

FAKE, PHOTOSHOP, FAKE it's all a giant gubermint conspiracy, it's the fluoride in the water WAKE UP PEOPLE the gubermint is lying to your, controlling your MIND.

If you wore a tinfoil hat and listened to Ron Paul and Alex Jones you'd KNOW THE TRUTH!

*froth*
*foam*
*mutter*

'scuse me the nurse is here with my meds.

5 coquimbojoe  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:24:27am

The puckering of all those 'Moon landings were faked' folks is probably very painful right now. But most of them are probably too caught up in the Nirth Certifikat follies to notice right now.

6 swamprat  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:24:37am

re: #3 MikeySDCA

This gee-whiz stuff is wonderful. It's a pity Apollo was such a waste of money.

As were the pyramids, but what can you do?

7 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:25:14am

Those look like footprints to somebody?

8 coquimbojoe  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:25:27am

re: #4 jcm

G (if not sleepy) MTA.

10 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:26:16am

re: #8 coquimbojoe

G (if not sleepy) MTA.

Morning Joe!

11 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:26:53am

I heard from a friend that these are all fake. I try to keep an open mind about things so I heard him out.

He tells me that the government actually never put a man on the moon and instead the Astronauts were flown to a soundstage and that everything was filmed there to fool Americans into supporting the Nixon administration.

Not sure if it is true but it sure sounds plausible.

It is all summed up in a documentary that the government doesn't want you to see called "Lunar Change".

Just sayin'

/

12 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:28:05am

I think I see the Nirth Certifikit!

13 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:28:05am

re: #11 karmic_inquisitor

Lunar Change - HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA

14 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:29:12am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

I think I see the Nirth Certifikit!

We put a sea lion on the moon ?! ?

15 jaunte  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:29:37am

People who argue that the moon landings were faked can easily retreat to the 'not useful' argument.

16 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:29:38am

re: #4 jcm

FAKE, PHOTOSHOP, FAKE it's all a giant gubermint conspiracy, it's the fluoride in the water WAKE UP PEOPLE the gubermint is lying to your, controlling your MIND.

If you wore a tinfoil hat and listened to Ron Paul and Alex Jones you'd KNOW THE TRUTH!

*froth*
*foam*
*mutter*

'scuse me the nurse is here with my meds.

Yeah - and notice how the "photographs" are black and white. We have color these days - so why not show all the brilliant colors of the surface of the moon?

It's a conspiracy, man.

/

17 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:29:49am

No climate change on the moon, perfect for Al Gore.

No climate even.

No seas to rise.

Complete cap on carbon emissions.

Paradise, really.

/

18 swamprat  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:30:44am

re: #9 jcm

Apollo brought us MRI's, fireproof suits, and dustbusters!


No, no. Space is a waste of time and money. We should not go there until everyone who is sick has been healed, everyone hungry is fed, everyone in the world is educated, and every child has a large stuffed teddybear of their choice of color.

19 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:31:27am

re: #18 swamprat

No, no. Space is a waste of time and money. We should not go there until everyone who is sick has been healed, everyone hungry is fed, everyone in the world is educated, and every child has a large stuffed teddybear of their choice of color.

You left out the unicorns.

20 Tarkus289  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:31:34am

re: #9 jcm

...and TANG.

21 poteen  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:33:08am

All great accomplishments since then seem to lose significance, don't they?

22 coquimbojoe  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:33:36am

re: #20 Tarkus289

...and TANG.

And those chocolatey snack bars that my mom used to put in my lunch.

23 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:34:23am

re: #21 poteen

All great accomplishments since then seem to lose significance, don't they?

You just blasphemed the accomplishment of "electing the first African American president".

Repent.

Now.

24 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:34:48am

re: #22 coquimbojoe

And those chocolatey snack bars that my mom used to put in my lunch.

That was Ex-Lax.

25 SixDegrees  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:35:23am

re: #5 coquimbojoe

The puckering of all those 'Moon landings were faked' folks is probably very painful right now. But most of them are probably too caught up in the Nirth Certifikat follies to notice right now.

Nah. They've known about this mission for a long time, and have already decided it was done in a studio, with PhotoShop, by the same cabal that did the original fakes.

There's no reasoning with such people. It's as productive as talking to a rock, which it is like in most other intellectual ways, as well.

26 coquimbojoe  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:35:40am

re: #24 debutaunt

That was Ex-Lax.

Fantastic stuff. Still working like a charm, then!

27 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:36:01am

re: #22 coquimbojoe

And those chocolatey snack bars that my mom used to put in my lunch.

It wasn't really Ex-Lax, but she used to kid about doing that.

28 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:36:27am

Tech info on rocket engines w/spectcular photos.

29 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:37:01am
30 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:37:25am

"spectAcular"

PIMF

BBL

31 albusteve  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:38:42am

re: #20 Tarkus289

...and TANG.

and huge advances in robotics...

Image: robot-fishbowl1.JPG

32 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:38:49am

Apollo Guidance Computer.
2Mhz
64 bit central memory.
and another 64 bits for other functions.

33 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:39:06am

re: #25 SixDegrees

Nah. They've known about this mission for a long time, and have already decided it was done in a studio, with PhotoShop, by the same cabal that did the original fakes.

There's no reasoning with such people. It's as productive as talking to a rock, which it is like in most other intellectual ways, as well.

I would use the photo Chalres posted as a refutation. If those are fakes, they suck given the technology we have today.

/still don't see the footprints, tho.

34 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:40:13am

OT: Why is the MSM using the term "Health Care Reform?"

Where did they get the term and why is it used so uniformly?

Are we actually reforming health care? Is it in need of reform? Is there a health crisis that i am unaware of? Life expectancy declining? Not enough physicians? No drugs? Dirty hospitals?

Or are we trying to provide people who can't/won't pay for it free access to the same services everyone else gets to pay for? Is that what "reform" is? Free stuff?

Great - I'd like some Entertainment Industry Reform please. I don't want to pay for entertainment anymore. Hollywood needs REFORM!

35 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:40:39am

Meanwhile in Gaza.....
Hamas makes feature film about slain militant

The Islamic militants' first feature film — an action-packed homage to a top Hamas militant — cost only $200,000 to make and is being shown to segregated audiences of bearded men and veiled women.

"It's Hamaswood instead of Hollywood," Fathi Hamad, Gaza's Hamas interior minister, said after the film's first showing Friday evening at Gaza City's Islamic University. "We are trying to make quality art that is Islamic and about the resistance, without provocative (sexual) scenes."

Hamad doubled as producer, and the screenplay was penned by Mahmoud Zahar, the Gaza strongman seen as one of the architects of the group's violent takeover of Gaza two years ago.
...
In the two-hour movie, titled "Emad Akel," there's plenty of action. The hero frequently leaps out of cars to open fire on Israeli soldiers, prompting bursts of applause from the audience each time. There's no romance, however, and the female actors all wear long robes and headscarves.
...
Rabin frequently yells at an inept Barak — now Israel's defense minister — who can't stop Hamas fighters. Israeli soldiers always seem asleep. Sleazy Israeli handlers try to persuade Palestinians to collaborate by offering them women and alcohol.

36 poteen  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:41:36am

re: #23 karmic_inquisitor

You just blasphemed the accomplishment of "electing the first African American president".

Repent.

Now.

I'll be at peace when we have the "First African-American president on the moon". What a great day that will be.

37 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:41:40am

re: #32 jcm

Apollo Guidance Computer.
2Mhz
64 bit central memory.
and another 64 bits for other functions.

Did they have silicone chips or was that still vacuum tubes?

38 FrogMarch  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:42:05am

It's all faked! Hollywad, REM, my idiot brother, and the Yeti say so.

39 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:42:25am

re: #37 Killgore Trout

Did they have silicone chips or was that still vacuum tubes?

Early chips.

40 SixDegrees  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:42:42am

re: #33 wahabicorridor

I would use the photo Chalres posted as a refutation. If those are fakes, they suck given the technology we have today.

/still don't see the footprints, tho.

They're just trying to make it look plausible. ;-)

I don't see individual footprints, but it looks like there's a visible trail.

41 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:42:46am

re: #17 Ojoe

No climate change on the moon, perfect for Al Gore.

No climate even.

No seas to rise.

Complete cap on carbon emissions.

Paradise, really.

/

Sustainability!

42 jaunte  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:43:18am

re: #34 karmic_inquisitor

Good question. I haven't seen a clear explanation of what the problem is, or why a complete overhaul of the system is the way to improve things, except that some people have 'insufficient access' to insurance or care.

43 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:43:48am

re: #34 karmic_inquisitor

Health care reform - as long as the folks in Congress get their extra-special, top-rate, pre-paid, top-of-the-line and free healthcare, then I'm good with it.

44 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:43:50am

re: #39 jcm

That makes sense. I vacuum tube computer would have been really heavy and probably too big.

45 poteen  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:44:57am

re: #41 wrenchwench

Sustainability!

John Glenn was a fat ol' fart when he went back to space. We gotta have a rocket big enough for Al.

46 swamprat  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:46:48am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

In the two-hour movie, titled "Emad Akel," there's plenty of action. The hero frequently leaps out of cars to open fire on Israeli soldiers, prompting bursts of applause from the audience each time. There's no romance, however, and the female actors all wear long robes and headscarves.
...
Rabin frequently yells at an inept Barak — now Israel's defense minister — who can't stop Hamas fighters. Israeli soldiers always seem asleep. Sleazy Israeli handlers try to persuade Palestinians to collaborate by offering them women and alcohol.

Sounds like "Hogans Heroes"

Rabin with a monocle, And Barak saying "I see nothing!"
They could've called it, "Arafats' Assholes".

47 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:46:50am

re: #34 karmic_inquisitor

Not enough physicians? No drugs? Dirty hospitals?

Yes, yes and yes.

Physician shortage due to tort law especially among OB/GYNs

Lack of drug availability due to cost factors - both high and low. Examples - fall thru the drug donut hole (e.g., realwest) - that's an example of high-cost unaffordability. Low-cost shortage: Many pharmas stopped making childhood vaccines after Hillary got hubby's admin to declare all low-income children would get subsidized vaccines. Pharmas lost money on them and stopped providing them.

"Dirty hospitals"? I'd say the hygiene here is bett than in the UK, but you have to ask why MRSA is such a stubborn problem.

48 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:47:24am
49 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:48:29am

re: #42 jaunte

Good question. I haven't seen a clear explanation of what the problem is, or why a complete overhaul of the system is the way to improve things, except that some people have 'insufficient access' to insurance or care.

I haven't been paying much attention but the problem is that health care costs are an increasingly large percentage of GDP.

50 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:48:55am

re: #48 MikeySDCA

Transistors. No chips in production at that time.

Really...

"The integrated circuit can be credited as being invented by both Jack Kilby of Texas Instruments[2] and Robert Noyce of Fairchild Semiconductor [3] working independently of each other. Kilby recorded his initial ideas concerning the integrated circuit in July 1958 and successfully demonstrated the first working integrated circuit on September 12, 1958.[2] Kilby won the 2000 Nobel Prize in Physics for his part of the invention of the integrated circuit.[4] Robert Noyce also came up with his own idea of integrated circuit, half a year later than Kilby. Noyce's chip had solved many practical problems that the microchip developed by Kilby had not. Noyce's chip, made at Fairchild, was made of silicon, whereas Kilby's chip was made of germanium."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

51 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:48:56am

re: #46 swamprat

"Arafats' Assholes".


Heh.

52 rightside  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:49:38am

re: #39 jcm

Chips used in the Apollo program


SSI, MSI and LSI

The first integrated circuits contained only a few transistors. Called "Small-Scale Integration" (SSI), digital circuits containing transistors numbering in the tens provided a few logic gates for example, while early linear ICs such as the Plessey SL201 or the Philips TAA320 had as few as two transistors. The term Large Scale Integration was first used by IBM scientist Rolf Landauer when describing the theoretical concept, from there came the terms for SSI, MSI, VSLI, and ULSI.

SSI circuits were crucial to early aerospace projects, and vice-versa. Both the Minuteman missile and Apollo program needed lightweight digital computers for their inertial guidance systems; the Apollo guidance computer led and motivated the integrated-circuit technology[citation needed], while the Minuteman missile forced it into mass-production.

These programs purchased almost all of the available integrated circuits from 1960 through 1963, and almost alone provided the demand that funded the production improvements to get the production costs from $1000/circuit (in 1960 dollars) to merely $25/circuit (in 1963 dollars).[citation needed] They began to appear in consumer products at the turn of the decade, a typical application being FM inter-carrier sound processing in television receivers.

The next step in the development of integrated circuits, taken in the late 1960s, introduced devices which contained hundreds of transistors on each chip, called "Medium-Scale Integration" (MSI).

They were attractive economically because while they cost little more to produce than SSI devices, they allowed more complex systems to be produced using smaller circuit boards, less assembly work (because of fewer separate components), and a number of other advantages.

Further development, driven by the same economic factors, led to "Large-Scale Integration" (LSI) in the mid 1970s, with tens of thousands of transistors per chip.

Integrated circuits such as 1K-bit RAMs, calculator chips, and the first microprocessors, that began to be manufactured in moderate quantities in the early 1970s, had under 4000 transistors. True LSI circuits, approaching 10000 transistors, began to be produced around 1974, for computer main memories and second-generation microprocessors.

53 hellosnackbar  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:49:47am

I watched as it happened and I still feel a frisson of awe when I see it now!
These lads really were "the right stuff".

54 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:50:09am
55 realwest  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:50:24am

Hey y'all - back from chores (temporarily) and I just wanted to say that I saw the moon landing on a 10" b&w portable TV in our HQ building. Maybe 20 or so of us crowded around it (this was in Panama) and we let out such a WHOOP! when Neil jumped to the surface (we first held our breath cause we thought he mighta missed the last ladder step - which he did - and have sprained an ankle or worse) that we woke up EVERYBODY on the base!
Truly one of the most thrilling moments I've ever seen on TV.
God Bless America.

56 albusteve  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:50:42am

re: #49 Killgore Trout

I haven't been paying much attention but the problem is that health care costs are an increasingly large percentage of GDP.

you'd think that Congress would support some liability tort reform, for one thing...wonder what the silk pony would say

57 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:50:46am

re: #47 wahabicorridor

Yes, yes and yes.

Physician shortage due to tort law especially among OB/GYNs

Lack of drug availability due to cost factors - both high and low. Examples - fall thru the drug donut hole (e.g., realwest) - that's an example of high-cost unaffordability. Low-cost shortage: Many pharmas stopped making childhood vaccines after Hillary got hubby's admin to declare all low-income children would get subsidized vaccines. Pharmas lost money on them and stopped providing them.

"Dirty hospitals"? I'd say the hygiene here is bett than in the UK, but you have to ask why MRSA is such a stubborn problem.

And ObamaCare solves all of these problems? Or is the thrust to get everyone access to essentially the same care?

My sister is a physician who (for some reason she can no longer articulate) voted for Obama. She now says tort reform would solve a lot of problems and produce immediate savings.

Wonder if the trial lawyers are on board with that one.

58 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:50:49am

re: #48 MikeySDCA

Transistors. No chips in production at that time.

AGC in Apollo

The Apollo flight computer was the first to use integrated circuits (ICs). The Block I version used 4,100 ICs, each containing a single 3-input nor logic gate.

Not much more than a transistor, but still an IC.

59 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:51:25am

re: #25 SixDegrees

Nah. They've known about this mission for a long time, and have already decided it was done in a studio, with PhotoShop, by the same cabal that did the original fakes.

There's no reasoning with such people. It's as productive as talking to a rock, which it is like in most other intellectual ways, as well.

As Robert Heinlein said (through his character Lazarus Long) "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

60 DEZes  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:51:47am

re: #48 MikeySDCA

Transistors. No chips in production at that time.

The Apollo flight computer was the first to use integrated circuits (ICs). The Block I version used 4,100 ICs, each containing a single 3-input nor logic gate. The later Block II version used dual 3-input nor gates in a flat-pack, approximately 5,600 gates in all. The gates were made by Fairchild Semiconductor using resistor-transistor logic (RTL). They were interconnected by a technique called wire wrap, in which the circuits are pushed into sockets, the sockets have square posts, and wire is wrapped around the posts. The edges of the posts press against the wire with very high pressure, causing gas-tight connections that are more reliable than soldered PC boards. The wiring was then embedded in cast epoxy plastic. The decision to use a single IC design throughout the AGC avoided problems that plagued another early IC computer design, the Minuteman II guidance computer, which used a mix of diode-transistor logic (DTL) and diode logic (DL) gates made by Texas Instruments.

The computer's RAM was magnetic core memory (2 kibiwords, where a kibiword is 1,024 words) and ROM was implemented as core rope memory (36 kibiwords). Both had cycle times of 11.72 micro-seconds. The memory word length was 16 bits: 15 bits of data and 1 odd-parity bit. The CPU-internal 16-bit word format was 14 bits of data, 1 overflow bit, and 1 sign bit (ones' complement representation).

61 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:52:00am

re: #54 MikeySDCA

Please note I said "in production."

Read the rest of the article please... if they were used, they were in production.

62 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:53:12am

re: #56 albusteve

you'd think that Congress would support some liability tort reform, for one thing...wonder what the silk pony would say

That's one of the pitfalls of letting lawyers make the laws. I imagine we'll end up with tort reform once the government is the defendant.
/trying to look at the "bright side"

63 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:53:14am

BBIAB

64 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:54:57am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

That's one of the pitfalls of letting lawyers make the laws. I imagine we'll end up with tort reform once the government is the defendant.
/trying to look at the "bright side"

National Health Care is going to be a cash cow for Ambulance Chasing attorneys like Silky Pony. The deepest pockets of all will now be on the hook.....

Us.

65 DistantThunder  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:55:27am

Can't wait to show Mr. DT who is a professional tracker. He's impossible to watch movies with however. Like when we watched Castaway and Tom Hanks was alone on the island, Mr DT has to tell me about all the tracks he can see left by the crew.

PS Exciting morning - son, 20, had emergency surgery for appendicitis. He's resting and soaking up the sympathy ;)

66 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:55:30am

re: #7 wahabicorridor

Those look like footprints to somebody?

In truth, it is a guess, though a very good one. The disturbance in the regolith COULD be the tracks of the alien rover that was sent to wipe out the footprints, but it corresponds to the path taken by the astronauts on part of their jaunt.

67 swamprat  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:55:59am

re: #50 Walter L. Newton

Really...

"The integrated circuit can be credited as being invented by both Jack Kilby of Texas Instruments[2] and Robert Noyce of Fairchild Semiconductor [3] working independently of each other.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Here is an inside tip.
Fairchild Semiconductor and Honeywell Industries are going to merge in the very near future.

Look to see if you can buy stock in Fair/well- Honey/child.

68 albusteve  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:57:07am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

That's one of the pitfalls of letting lawyers make the laws. I imagine we'll end up with tort reform once the government is the defendant.
/trying to look at the "bright side"

well it is certainly a problem that can be solved...it's my nature to find and apply solutions...it is a big part of the remodel business in a way

69 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:57:36am

re: #49 Killgore Trout

I haven't been paying much attention but the problem is that health care costs are an increasingly large percentage of GDP.

And the proposed solution (at least according to the Congressional Budget Office) increases costs further and also places even greater strain on the federal government.

But Obama tells us today that there are two alternatives - do nothing and keep the system we have (which will bankrupt all of us eventually according to the administration) or we can call our representatives and insist they vote for his package very quickly and without reading it.

Those are the only alternatives. it turns out that if it doesn't happen now it cannot happen for another generation. No explanation as to why that is, which seems odd since not doing what Obama wants is supposed to create the sort of catastrophe that would motivate support for effective reform immediately.

I sure am glad that an open, policy minded, moderate, pragmatic leader now occupies the White House instead of a guy who stokes fear to rush radical changes through congress.

70 DistantThunder  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:57:45am

re: #57 karmic_inquisitor

And ObamaCare solves all of these problems? Or is the thrust to get everyone access to essentially the same care?

My sister is a physician who (for some reason she can no longer articulate) voted for Obama. She now says tort reform would solve a lot of problems and produce immediate savings.

Wonder if the trial lawyers are on board with that one.

That charisma is a dangerous trait. Socialized sociopaths often ooze with charisma - not saying that Obama is one - just that charisma has a tendency to overwhelm the critical thinking of people who are susceptible to it.

71 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:57:52am

re: #57 karmic_inquisitor

And ObamaCare solves all of these problems? Or is the thrust to get everyone access to essentially the same care?

My sister is a physician who (for some reason she can no longer articulate) voted for Obama. She now says tort reform would solve a lot of problems and produce immediate savings.

Wonder if the trial lawyers are on board with that one.

Oh, let me be clear. ObamaCare solves NOTHING. The 'thrust' is to eventually wipe out private insurance companies. Your sister is right about tort reform. The insurance premiums docs have to carry are unreal. My OB/GYN no longer does the 'OB' part - she's entirely GYN/ENDO. She's concerned women will start giving birth in ditches.

I'd be interested to know who many medicare patients your sister has (assuming she's in private practice). If she has any experience with Medicare I can't imagine why she things Obama care would produce savings.

72 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:58:08am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

That's one of the pitfalls of letting lawyers make the laws. I imagine we'll end up with tort reform once the government is the defendant.
/trying to look at the "bright side"

How would you create tort reform that won't screw people with damages above and beyond the cap?

73 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:58:16am

re: #59 Shiplord Kirel

As Robert Heinlein said (through his character Lazarus Long) "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

Rosie O' is always annoyed.

74 legalpad  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:59:58am

re: #59 Shiplord Kirel

As Robert Heinlein said (through his character Lazarus Long) "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

YES - I KNOW -

75 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:00:37am

re: #66 Shiplord Kirel

The disturbance in the regolith COULD be the tracks of the alien rover that was sent to wipe out the footprints

AH HA! See, I was thinking something similar - not an alien rover, but the trail of a lizard tail.

/just sayin'

76 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:00:54am

re: #71 wahabicorridor

Oh, let me be clear. ObamaCare solves NOTHING. The 'thrust' is to eventually wipe out private insurance companies. Your sister is right about tort reform. The insurance premiums docs have to carry are unreal. My OB/GYN no longer does the 'OB' part - she's entirely GYN/ENDO. She's concerned women will start giving birth in ditches.

I'd be interested to know who many medicare patients your sister has (assuming she's in private practice). If she has any experience with Medicare I can't imagine why she things Obama care would produce savings.

She is a trauma surgeon.

She usually has them in the recovery room before the issue of payment comes up. So she never has any idea whether the person on the table is a payer or not.

77 Opilio  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:01:15am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

That's one of the pitfalls of letting lawyers make the laws. I imagine we'll end up with tort reform once the government is the defendant.
/trying to look at the "bright side"

Precisely, relatively recent stats showed that about 30% of congresspeoples were lawyers, and another 20% or so had backgrounds in law. OTOH, 12 were M.D.s.

78 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:01:43am

re: #72 Flyers1974

How would you create tort reform that won't screw people with damages above and beyond the cap?

Don't ask me. I have only the most basic understanding of the issue and I'm far too dumb to come up with any practical solutions.

79 realwest  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:03:27am

re: #64 jcm

National Health Care is going to be a cash cow for Ambulance Chasing attorneys like Silky Pony. The deepest pockets of all will now be on the hook.....

Us.

Oh Yeah. Damned Ambulance Chasers. True story: friend broke his right hand, wrist and forearm; earning him a hand to shoulder hard cast and lots of great drugs.
While he was in his E.R. "room" and woke, briefly, from his drug induced sleep, he saw his right hand and all being held in an upright position by wires and pulleys and there was something stuck in the cast on his hand by his thumb. He pulled it out and it was a lawyers business card - scribbled on the back was a message "call me. no fee to you".
He gave me the card when I visited him in his semi-private room and I a) wrote a STRONG DAMN letter to the hospital about letting this clown lawyer into the ER rooms and b) wrote a MUCH STRONGER DAMN letter to the Bar Association. He was in fact disciplined by the Bar - couldn't practice for all of six months.
BTW, did I mention that the Trial Lawyers Association pretty much controlled the Bar Association Disciplinary committee at the time?

80 albusteve  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:03:37am

another area for reform would be to open the choke point of allied health programs....there is no excuse for chronic nurse/rad tech/resp tech people...the programs are ridiculously difficult and hard to get into...it's intentional...academic health people are the worst conceited but of educators ever...their programs operate with their own draconian rules and regulations etc....75% of RNs are way over paid for what they do....all by design of course

81 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:04:44am

re: #7 wahabicorridor

Those look like footprints to somebody?

The resolution isn't good enough to distinguish individual footprints. You see the tracks they made in the lunar dust going back and forth from the lander to the instrument site.

82 realwest  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:05:00am

re: #65 DistantThunder
Hey DT! Best wishes and prayers for your son's complete recovery!

83 coquimbojoe  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:05:25am

re: #81 Charles

The resolution isn't good enough to distinguish individual footprints. You see the tracks they made in the lunar dust going back and forth from the lander to the instrument site.

These pictures make me ridiculously happy.

84 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:05:46am

re: #72 Flyers1974

How would you create tort reform that won't screw people with damages above and beyond the cap?

It comes down to damages vs punitive awards.

Damages are economic in nature and are relatively straight forward to calculate (loss of work, disability, etc).

Punitive damages, pain and suffering and other such awards are what drive up the bills. That is where the focus needs to fall. These are intangibles and are the area that trial lawyers play up in terms of getting juries to soak "the rich doctors and their rich insurance companies" for some huge amount to teach them a lesson they won't forget.

They just raise their prices and forget. You and I end up paying for it.

85 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:06:11am

re: #76 karmic_inquisitor

She is a trauma surgeon.

She usually has them in the recovery room before the issue of payment comes up. So she never has any idea whether the person on the table is a payer or not.

So, I gather she simply gets paid a salary by the hospital? Tell her that there will be immediate savings then - 'cuz her paycheck will get cut when the hospital starts losing money. Somewhere in the news within the last 2 days is a story about a hospital in Boston suing the state because of the losses they're taking under RomneyCare.

86 coquimbojoe  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:06:22am

re: #82 realwest

Hey DT! Best wishes and prayers for your son's complete recovery!

Hope you are well and getting even better. My best to you this fine summer day. Has anyone ever heard from Miguel Down In Mexico?

87 albusteve  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:07:24am

re: #79 realwest

that is a serious HIPAA violation....somebody at the hospital should be held responsible

88 Opilio  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:08:15am

re: #71 wahabicorridor

My OB/GYN no longer does the 'OB' part - she's entirely GYN/ENDO.

All 4 of the OB/GYNs that delivered our children (or that we saw during prenatal visits to meet the 'backup' doc) left the OB business in the late 90s. None had lost or settled a malpractice claim. Cost of insurance drove the change.

89 Bob Dillon  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:08:22am

re: #48 MikeySDCA

Transistors. No chips in production at that time.

Yes they were.

IBM was mass producing them from the early 60s for the 360 line.

and:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The Apollo flight computer was the first to use integrated circuits (ICs). The Block I version used 4,100 ICs, each containing a single 3-input nor logic gate. The later Block II version used dual 3-input nor gates in a flat-pack, approximately 5,600 gates in all. The gates were made by Fairchild Semiconductor using resistor-transistor logic (RTL). They were interconnected by a technique called wire wrap, in which the circuits are pushed into sockets, the sockets have square posts, and wire is wrapped around the posts. The edges of the posts press against the wire with very high pressure, causing gas-tight connections that are more reliable than soldered PC boards. The wiring was then embedded in cast epoxy plastic. The decision to use a single IC design throughout the AGC avoided problems that plagued another early IC computer design, the Minuteman II guidance computer, which used a mix of diode-transistor logic (DTL) and diode logic (DL) gates made by Texas Instruments.

90 coquimbojoe  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:08:29am

re: #85 wahabicorridor

So, I gather she simply gets paid a salary by the hospital? Tell her that there will be immediate savings then - 'cuz her paycheck will get cut when the hospital starts losing money. Somewhere in the news within the last 2 days is a story about a hospital in Boston suing the state because of the losses they're taking under RomneyCare.

I still like Romney. It would be nice if our foolish leaders would step back and look at the mess that is going on in Mass. As I understand it he at least tried to allow for private competition and market forces....and it still is a huge mess.

91 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:08:30am

re: #81 Charles

The resolution isn't good enough to distinguish individual footprints. You see the tracks they made in the lunar dust going back and forth from the lander to the instrument site.

It's a lizard's tail trail Charles, believe me! (see my #75)

:D

92 jaunte  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:09:12am

re: #84 karmic_inquisitor

Here's a hidden goody for trial lawyers in the health care bill:

The newly added language in the Thursday morning version of the health bill (for those following along, it’s Section 1620 on pp. 713-721) would greatly expand the scope of these suits against third parties, while doing something entirely new: allow freelance lawyers to file them on behalf of the government — without asking permission — and collect rich bounties if they manage thereby to extract money from the defendants.
[Link: overlawyered.com...]

93 Wendya  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:09:26am

re: #72 Flyers1974

How would you create tort reform that won't screw people with damages above and beyond the cap?

Someone is always going to believe they're being screwed.

I say we scrap the current system and move to a no-fault style insurance.

94 swamprat  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:09:53am

re: #84 karmic_inquisitor

So punitive awards could be limited to a percentage of the damages...half, ten times, whatever.

95 jcbunga  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:10:19am

It doesn't matter how many times I see stuff related to the moon shots, it's always amazing and thrilling.

NASA should light the candle on a Saturn V every 4th of July just for the hell of it.

96 gymmom  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:10:26am

re: #72 Flyers1974

How would you create tort reform that won't screw people with damages above and beyond the cap?

Indiana has a tort reform system that apparently works. Don't know all the details, but there is a review board with medical knowledge that reviews each case before it moves forward. The malpractice insurance premium of an MD I know who moved to Indiana was 18% of what he paid in Northeast Ohio. Something is working.

97 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:10:42am

re: #85 wahabicorridor

So, I gather she simply gets paid a salary by the hospital? Tell her that there will be immediate savings then - 'cuz her paycheck will get cut when the hospital starts losing money. Somewhere in the news within the last 2 days is a story about a hospital in Boston suing the state because of the losses they're taking under RomneyCare.

She actually contracts out to several hospitals. She gets more money when the patient pays and less (or sometimes none) when they don't.

It is hard for hospitals to staff trauma in San Jose (where she does this) so that is the niche she has established for herself. No steady paycheck, really. And she gets sued all the time - usually by gang bangers who can't return to "productive lives" after she fixes up their gunshot wounds. I shit you not.

98 realwest  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:10:54am

re: #72 Flyers1974

How would you create tort reform that won't screw people with damages above and beyond the cap?

Well you could certainly cap the awards granted to the actual medical costs, loss of wages and projected loss of income for the rest of someone's expected lifetime and then put say a $100,000 cap on the "pain and suffering" part of an award.
IIRC, "Pain and Suffering" accounted for roughly 70% of jury awards in medical malpractice cases (though this is going back about 8 years or so).

99 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:11:19am

re: #56 albusteve

you'd think that Congress would support some liability tort reform, for one thing...wonder what the silk pony would say

I wonder what percentage of the increase silky is responsible for.

100 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:11:30am

re: #90 coquimbojoe

I still like Romney. It would be nice if our foolish leaders would step back and look at the mess that is going on in Mass. As I understand it he at least tried to allow for private competition and market forces....and it still is a huge mess.

What Romney - of all people - missed is the way the plan was incentivized (I think I just made up a word) - anyway - if the state is going to cover your healt care costs via lower insurance rates, why would anyone keep their higher-priced private insurance? Especially when you know your tax burden is going to go up to pay for the state provided insurance?

Econ 101 for stupid people, Thomas Sowell, please call your office.

101 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:11:38am

re: #87 albusteve

that is a serious HIPAA violation....somebody at the hospital should be held responsible

I've actually had lawyers poking around accident scenes for information. They'd have police and fire scanners, and show up.

102 realwest  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:12:58am

re: #84 karmic_inquisitor

Punitive damages, pain and suffering and other such awards are what drive up the bills. That is where the focus needs to fall. These are intangibles and are the area that trial lawyers play up in terms of getting juries to soak "the rich doctors and their rich insurance companies" for some huge amount to teach them a lesson they won't forget.

and let us not forget that the lawyers who take these cases are paid ONLY if they win, but if they WIN (includes settlements) they get anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of the total award. So pain and suffering is where most of the lawyers also get the biggest part of their fees.

103 Opilio  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:13:34am

re: #81 Charles

The resolution isn't good enough to distinguish individual footprints. You see the tracks they made in the lunar dust going back and forth from the lander to the instrument site.

Eventually there should be some cool pictures of the "tire" tracks left by the rovers. Those will be far easier to resolve than footprints.

104 rightside  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:13:45am

//Lunar litterers

105 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:13:47am

re: #102 realwest

and let us not forget that the lawyers who take these cases are paid ONLY if they win, but if they WIN (includes settlements) they get anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of the total award. So pain and suffering is where most of the lawyers also get the biggest part of their fees.

Silky Pony made how much channeling a dead baby? Millions?

106 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:14:13am

re: #97 karmic_inquisitor

It is hard for hospitals to staff trauma in San Jose (where she does this) so that is the niche she has established for herself. No steady paycheck, really. And she gets sued all the time - usually by gang bangers who can't return to "productive lives" after she fixes up their gunshot wounds. I shit you not.

San Jose? Oh, yeah, I believe it. Does the hospitals she has contracts with help cover any of her insurance costs?

107 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:14:16am

re: #104 rightside

//Lunar litterers

Yeah, we should clean it up!

Back to the Moon!

108 albusteve  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:15:34am

re: #101 jcm

I've actually had lawyers poking around accident scenes for information. They'd have police and fire scanners, and show up.

bottom feeders

109 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:15:57am

re: #97 karmic_inquisitor

She actually contracts out to several hospitals. She gets more money when the patient pays and less (or sometimes none) when they don't.

It is hard for hospitals to staff trauma in San Jose (where she does this) so that is the niche she has established for herself. No steady paycheck, really. And she gets sued all the time - usually by gang bangers who can't return to "productive lives" after she fixes up their gunshot wounds. I shit you not.

Insurance companies and hospitals will settle, it's cheaper to pay out a couple hundred thou, than to spend a million or two to win the case in court.

110 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:17:33am

re: #108 albusteve

bottom feeders

Couple times I was worried a cop might shoot one of them.

Not that the scum would be shot, how I'd testify so that it would appear justified.

;-P

111 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:18:03am

re: #84 karmic_inquisitor

It comes down to damages vs punitive awards.

Damages are economic in nature and are relatively straight forward to calculate (loss of work, disability, etc).

Punitive damages, pain and suffering and other such awards are what drive up the bills. That is where the focus needs to fall. These are intangibles and are the area that trial lawyers play up in terms of getting juries to soak "the rich doctors and their rich insurance companies" for some huge amount to teach them a lesson they won't forget.

They just raise their prices and forget. You and I end up paying for it.

If a jury awards punitive damages and the judge allows them to stand, I think most of the time its safe to say, there must have been some really really bad conduct on the part of the medical provider. Not 100% of course, but as a general rule I think this is true. I think that pain and suffering is the area most likely to be abused because it is subjective. I'm just not sure how to fix the system in a way to protect those who have suffered a great amount, i.e., (to use an extreme and rare example) where a doctor who amputates a healthy limb by mistake.

112 Opilio  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:18:57am

re: #108 albusteve

bottom feeders

What do you call a thousand lawyers at the bottom of the sea?

A good start.

//rim shot.

113 gymmom  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:19:08am

Indian Tort reform info

I don't have time to read this right now and wouldn't be able to summarize anyway.

114 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:20:02am

Here's the story on the Boston hospital lawsuit.

Boston Medical Center filed a lawsuit alleging the state of Massachusetts is shirking its responsibility to pay for healthcare for the poor as it struggles to fund a universal healthcare plan.

A complaint filed Wednesday in Suffolk County Superior Court argues that cuts in reimbursement approved by the Massachusetts Health and Human Services Department violate its statutory obligations to the 520-bed hospital. The lawsuit also contends that the state is essentially siphoning money from the hospital by compelling it to provide care to all comers and then reimbursing that care at 64 cents on the dollar—an average of what the state pays for uninsured patients, Medicaid enrollees and those covered under subsidized plans central to the state’s landmark universal coverage initiative.

State HHS Secretary JudyAnn Bigby said in a written statement that the administration was “disappointed” by the lawsuit. “At a time when everyone funded and served by state government is being asked to do more with less, BMC has been treated no differently. We are confident that the administration’s actions in this area comply with all applicable law and will be upheld.”

More with less. Yeah. Right out of thin air, baby.

115 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:20:31am

re: #111 Flyers1974

The system needs to be able to distinguish between "adverse outcome" the normal statistical case where stuff happens and no one is at fault. And those cases where malpractice really did occur.

116 jaunte  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:20:35am

Sorry, after universal health care, no more football:

"Any manufacturer who sells football helmets and shoulder pads without a heat stroke warning, knowing they're being used in extreme heat, does so at its peril," [Stringer's attorney, Paul DeMarco] said. "The same goes for leagues, coaches, and equipment managers who permit such equipment to be used without heat stroke warnings."

Duty to warn that wearing football gear might make you really hot

117 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:21:27am

re: #116 jaunte

Sorry, after universal health care, no more football:

"Any manufacturer who sells football helmets and shoulder pads without a heat stroke warning, knowing they're being used in extreme heat, does so at its peril," [Stringer's attorney, Paul DeMarco] said. "The same goes for leagues, coaches, and equipment managers who permit such equipment to be used without heat stroke warnings."

Duty to warn that wearing football gear might make you really hot

Football helmets 12lbs, warning labels 68lbs.

118 Bob Dillon  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:21:30am

re: #54 MikeySDCA

Please note I said "in production."

[Link: smithsonianchips.si.edu...]

NMAH Catalog Number 1984.0153.06
Memory Module - used in IBM System/360 Computers
A ceramic SLT [Solid Logic Technology] module about 1/2 inch on a side, containing enough transistors and printed resistors and conductors to constitute a complete logic circuit, and an SLT printed circuit card about 1 1/2" x 1 3/4", capable of holding up to six modules on one side. The circuit density on an SLT card was about ten times greater than on the circuit cards used in the 608, less than ten years earlier. SLT modules and cards were used in the IBM System/360 computers which were announced in 1964. IBM produced 600,000 of these modules during 1962 and 1963, 6 million in 1964, and about 60 million in 1965.

119 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:22:34am

re: #113 gymmom

Indian Tort reform info

I don't have time to read this right now and wouldn't be able to summarize anyway.

I'll summarize for you.

They put a cap on everything. Including lawyer's fees.

120 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:22:36am

re: #98 realwest

Well you could certainly cap the awards granted to the actual medical costs, loss of wages and projected loss of income for the rest of someone's expected lifetime and then put say a $100,000 cap on the "pain and suffering" part of an award.
IIRC, "Pain and Suffering" accounted for roughly 70% of jury awards in medical malpractice cases (though this is going back about 8 years or so).

Even though its 8 years old, 70% sounds perfectly reasonable to me. No doubt its in the ballpark. My question to you would be, what about cases of malpractice where the suffering is above and beyond? Let's say where a young person's life is forever changed by the malpractice? Would there be a way to compensate that person beyond the cap?

121 Bobblehead  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:22:42am

I remember staying up all night and going to the old Ohio State Student Union and watching the landing with my fellow students. Do I feel old. Still, it is one of those very vivid moments in my life I'll never forget.

122 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:25:36am

re: #121 Bobblehead

I remember staying up all night and going to the old Ohio State Student Union and watching the landing with my fellow students. Do I feel old. Still, it is one of those very vivid moments in my life I'll never forget.

I was in Iran and listened on AFRS. When National Geographic published the pictures a couple months later I created the "movie" in my head, base on those big beautiful pictures. When I first saw the video, all grainy and ghostly I was so disappointed.

123 realwest  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:26:37am

re: #109 jcm

Insurance companies and hospitals will settle, it's cheaper to pay out a couple hundred thou, than to spend a million or two to win the case in court.


Absolutely correct. And part of the big rise in health care costs is all the expensive tests doctors order - not because they think the tests will aid them in treating the patient, but will be able to be used to defend them should they get sued.
One of my best friends (and internist for 34 years in NYC) had only ONE lawsuit brought against him for the sum of $100,000.00 He told his insurance company that he had done nothing wrong and they told him that either he agreed to settle for the $100,000 (which was half the limit of the insurance companies' liability - this is obvously a couple of decades ago) or they would not represent him and would not cough up the dough up to the $200,000.00 limit of his insurance and said "read the fine print in our contract with you."
Yep, if the doctor didn't agree to a settlement that the insurance company would fund, that would also
"settle" the matter, they were under no liability to continue to protect him or pay for any damages at all if he retained a private attorney.
Nice effin' work if you can get it and have NO moral scruples whatsoever.

124 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:30:20am

re: #119 wahabicorridor

I'll summarize for you.

They put a cap on everything. Including lawyer's fees.

Here is a problem with that scenario - Speaking for myself, I would never take a med/mal case. You either specialize in med/mal or you don't touch it (I would hope). Its too complicated an area to learn on the fly, I think. If the lawyers fees are capped, will any lawyers take a med/mal case, no matter how legitimate? There is so much work involved, not to mention the lawyers liability.

125 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:31:33am

re: #123 realwest

My wife is a Physical Terrorist (opps Therapist) she is "anal retentive" about documentation. Three times she's been sued, each time when she turned over her documentation the other side said "never mind."

If everyone decided that when a case has no merit we won't settle I wonder how many of these suits would go away?

126 realwest  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:32:15am

re: #120 Flyers1974
Do you mean the young person's life is changed forever by the pain and suffering he will have to endure for the rest of his life?
Cause that would technically fall under the "Medical part" of the damages (e.g., if they amputated the wrong arm).
And what happens if it's "just" pain and suffering (and I'm not making light of how much pain and suffering there CAN be, believe me on that one!) and five years later science comes up with a way to end that pain and suffering? Does the individual (and his lawyer) have to refund the balance of the money for the "pain and suffering" he will no longer have to endure?!

127 realwest  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:37:21am

re: #125 jcm
"If everyone decided that when a case has no merit we won't settle I wonder how many of these suits would go away?"
I'd guess about 60% or so. Why do you think supermarkets have cctv's? Not to protect against theft, but to put an end to the literally THRIVING business of slipping and falling on a wet floor or somesuch in the supermarkets - I've actually seen CCTV footage of someone deliberately pouring a small amount of water on the floor, dispose of the bottle and then walk back and slip and fall on the wet floor.

128 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:37:45am

re: #124 Flyers1974

You either specialize in med/mal or you don't touch it

In principle I agree with you. But the poster boy for 'specialization' was Rickie Scruggs.

Sentenced to 5 years.

129 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:38:24am

re: #115 jcm

The system needs to be able to distinguish between "adverse outcome" the normal statistical case where stuff happens and no one is at fault. And those cases where malpractice really did occur.

I've had maybe 20 people come to me for med/mal. Since I don't do this, I referred them to someone else. In every one of those cases, (and believe me, I had incentive to follow up) the attorney said to the potential client essentially, "thanks but no thanks." Afterwards, in almost every one of those potential cases, the reason the lawyer rejected the case was "adverse outcome." To the extent that lawyers don't already weed out those cases for their own financial interests, I agree that doctors should never ever be sued for "adverse outcome."

130 realwest  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:39:59am

re: #129 Flyers1974
Agree with you 100%.
But geez, there are a LOT of sleazy personal injury lawyers out there.

131 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:43:56am

re: #127 realwest

"If everyone decided that when a case has no merit we won't settle I wonder how many of these suits would go away?"
I'd guess about 60% or so. Why do you think supermarkets have cctv's? Not to protect against theft, but to put an end to the literally THRIVING business of slipping and falling on a wet floor or somesuch in the supermarkets - I've actually seen CCTV footage of someone deliberately pouring a small amount of water on the floor, dispose of the bottle and then walk back and slip and fall on the wet floor.

NYC has a bus fraud unit. Everytime a city bus is in an accident dozens of people claim injuries. Even when the bus was empty.

NYC will stage a bus accident. Then every whack job that claims injury gets charged with fraud. Just to deter the practice of claiming injuries.

132 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:46:39am

Bogus mesothelioma/silicosos $40 billion lawsuit scam.

"Your Honor, there is something very wrong here," Mulholland said about the testimony. "This is a real courtroom. You are a real federal judge. But these lawsuits are simply not real."

The judge, who is also a trained nurse, agreed. In a June 2005 order, Judge Jack wrote: "These diagnoses were driven by neither health nor justice; they were manufactured for money. The record is not clear who originally devised this scheme, but it is clear that the lawyers, doctors and screening companies were all willing participants."

With that, Judge Jack sent about 10,000 silicosis cases on their way to the dumpster.

The judge's ruling was sweet vindication to a small band of lawyers and academics who'd been claiming for years that asbestosis and silicosis litigation had morphed into a massive tort scam. The cases spurned by the judge, however, could only hint at the dimensions of the scandal. "Over the life of the asbestos and silica litigation, I believe bogus and invalid claims will total at least $40 billion," says Lester Brickman, a professor of law at the Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University in New York.

So far, at least 79 companies have filed for bankruptcy due to asbestos litigation alone, and 60,000 workers have lost their jobs.

Is this about medical tort reform? No, it's about doctors on the take.

RTWT

133 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:47:15am

re: #126 realwest

Do you mean the young person's life is changed forever by the pain and suffering he will have to endure for the rest of his life?
Cause that would technically fall under the "Medical part" of the damages (e.g., if they amputated the wrong arm).
And what happens if it's "just" pain and suffering (and I'm not making light of how much pain and suffering there CAN be, believe me on that one!) and five years later science comes up with a way to end that pain and suffering? Does the individual (and his lawyer) have to refund the balance of the money for the "pain and suffering" he will no longer have to endure?!

In the case of the amputated leg, I think pain and suffering would include the actual physical pain, but also suffering from inability to play sports, for instance. As for the case of science coming up with a cure after the fact, I'd say for practical reasons it would be very difficult to recoup damages already paid out.

134 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:49:18am

re: #131 jcm

I have do doubt this is true. There is undeniably a culture among some people of "getting paid." Its kind of like a sub-economy.

135 jcm  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:50:24am


White House wants more power to set Medicare rates

Currently, Medicare reimbursement rates vary from region to region. Key lawmakers often get involved in setting local rates, a practice the Obama administration plan would end.


So a patient in NYC gets a deal, and a patient in NM gets soaked.

Wonderful.

136 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:57:11am

re: #130 realwest

Agree with you 100%.
But geez, there are a LOT of sleazy personal injury lawyers out there.

No doubt about it. Hell, maybe I'm just jealous of them. Once you are established in that game, there is a lot of money, much more than in what I do. Anyway, If there is something that can be done to further eliminate adverse income suits or otherwise bs cases, I'm all for that, as long as those who were wronged and are deserving, are still able to be properly compensated. Perhaps, the true answer is, no matter what happens, there are always going to be innocent victims, either doctors and higher insurance prices, or patients who get screwed.

137 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 10:57:39am

re: #134 Flyers1974

I have do doubt this is true. There is undeniably a culture among some people of "getting paid." Its kind of like a sub-economy.

no

138 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:01:54am

The Moon We Left Behind
Charles Krauthammer

But look up from your BlackBerry one night. That is the moon. On it are exactly 12 sets of human footprints -- untouched, unchanged, abandoned. For the first time in history, the moon is not just a mystery and a muse, but a nightly rebuke. A vigorous young president once summoned us to this new frontier, calling the voyage "the most hazardous and dangerous and greatest adventure on which man has ever embarked." And so we did it. We came. We saw. Then we retreated.

How could we?

139 spirochete  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:03:38am

I am a physician in Mass. I am leaving medicine due to the increasingly hostile environment we have. Good luck to the libs trying to find a doc at 2 in the morning when they need one. It won't be me and I will be home sleeping....safe from all the lawyers.

140 DistantThunder  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:06:09am

re: #114 wahabicorridor

Here's the story on the Boston hospital lawsuit.

More with less. Yeah. Right out of thin air, baby.

When I processed medicaid claims for a doctor back in the '80's I could never get the claims approved - they were almost always denied due to an "error" on my part allegedly. Then there was a newstory that explained that the state was repeatedly denying payments on claims in this manner, so as to float the cashflow. I must have re-submitted some of those claims 3 times -and each time I'd call to make sure I was doing everything right -which I was.

Finally, the doctor said, "No more, just not worth the measly reimbursement for all the time processing the claims."

141 Annar  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:36:39am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

I think I see the Nirth Certifikit!

Not possible since it is stuffed inside an old Qur'an in the back room of a Kenyan mosque near an old family residence.
/sarc

142 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 11:59:39am

re: #9 jcm

Apollo brought us MRI's, fireproof suits, and dustbusters!

jcm -

Love the link to "10 Connects" - A local Chevrolet Dealer is advertising "Cash for Clunkers" and the car that they show is a TRABANT!

-S-

143 calcajun  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 12:15:36pm

Now will this kill the "staged" moon landing conspiracies? Nope. Not by a damn sight.

These guys make troofers sound lucid.

144 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 12:37:17pm

re: #139 spirochete

I am a physician in Mass. I am leaving medicine due to the increasingly hostile environment we have. Good luck to the libs trying to find a doc at 2 in the morning when they need one. It won't be me and I will be home sleeping....safe from all the lawyers.

You could move to Indiana

?

145 Jim in Virginia  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 12:43:57pm

I remember there was concern (not sure how widespread) before Apollo 11 landed as to how deep the dust was. We'd made soft unmanned landings before (if I recall correctly) but we weren't sure whether the LEM would sink into the dust and be unable to get out.

Damn, we need to go back.

146 Jim in Virginia  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 12:45:50pm

re: #143 calcajun
The moon landings were real. The cover up was the huge alien bases they found.
///sarc off

147 wahabicorridor  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 12:58:40pm

re: #145 Jim in Virginia

but we weren't sure whether the LEM would sink into the dust and be unable to get out.

Just for you.

NASA is again shooting for the moon, but before a manned mission can get off the ground, scientists must solve a vexing technological challenge: dust.
As the Apollo 11 astronauts found out when they walked onto the moon 40 years ago Monday, lunar dust is downright treacherous. To the naked eye, it looks powdery, almost fluffy. But each particle is jagged. Dust scratched the astronauts' visors, ground into the joints of their spacesuits, clogged their equipment, and -- after they inadvertently tracked it into their living quarters -- lodged in their lungs.

"It gets into everything," says Jeff Hanley, who manages NASA's next-generation rocket program. "Dust is one of the biggest challenges we face."

148 Jim in Virginia  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 1:17:40pm

re: #147 wahabicorridor
Sniff...
I smell lawsuits.

149 Deseeded  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 1:52:46pm

Charles, thanks for this link. The entire Apollo program was such a feat of engineering and bravery.

It's sad to think that this won't actually put the myth that we never went their to rest. People are going to want to see a "Google Map" roadside view to verify.

150 Three Hundred  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 1:59:14pm

On the 40th anniversary of the first moon landing, Michelle Obama will talk about how proud she was of her country then.
/

151 Deseeded  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 2:34:37pm

re: #150 Three Hundred

On the 40th anniversary of the first moon landing, Michelle Obama will talk about how proud she was of her country then.
/

Hahaha and the alphabet news networks will talk about how her muscular arms and fashion sense would have great expanded the science we did. Also, the moon is made of cheese and the missions to it were only possible through socialized medicine. :D

152 arizona9  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 2:39:38pm

People! In honor of the Apollo anniversary, may I highly highly recommend an absolutely stunning film, 'In the Shadow of the Moon'. I saw it last night after all the Apollo talk in the news got me excited to revisit some wonderful American history. I was actually looking for another film which a friend highly recommended about Apollo 13. Unsuccessful, I stumbled upon this film which I had never heard of and decided to give it a go. What a wonderful discovery! In the Shadow of the Moon is a British documentary about the Apollo program told exclusively by the astronauts and features extraordinary NASA footage of the missions-much which I had never seen before.

The men's stories are at turns funny, insightful and moving. If you haven't already seen it, do so-you won't regret it.

153 LesLein  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 6:00:51pm

There's another 40th anniversary this month. The MSM doesn't give it much attention.

[Link: www.powerlineblog.com...]

154 Call me Infidel  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 8:48:38pm

I get slightly irritated with the tin foil hat merchants who claim it was all faked. However, can someone explain to me why the shadow of the LM in all the pictures goes in the opposite direction to all the other crater shadows? Am I missing something here?

155 Fon_Win  Sat, Jul 18, 2009 9:36:51pm

re: #154 Call me Infidel

I get slightly irritated with the tin foil hat merchants who claim it was all faked. However, can someone explain to me why the shadow of the LM in all the pictures goes in the opposite direction to all the other crater shadows? Am I missing something here?

I think it's an optical illusion. the shadows you're seeing in the photo that are created by "hills" aren't what you think they are. I think they are internal shadows created in craters. see how there is a bright reflection in the right side of the crater? that reflection from the inner slope of the crater. I'm a painter (an amateur), and I had a hard time processing that picture till I realized those are probable craters. If they were hills, and the light was coming from the right, then the shadows would be oblique in shape, stretching off to the left. If they are craters and the light is coming from the left, then they would be crisp sharp circles on the left, with light on the inner lip on the right... as they appear in the pic.


hope i explained that well enough.

156 cardinalfang  Sun, Jul 19, 2009 4:51:04am

Actually, those lines are a combination of Shepard and Mitchell's footprints and the tracks left by a little rickshaw-like device they used to haul tools and instruments around. It was the only flight that used it - the rovers were used by Apollos 15, 16 and 17. Can't wait for the better sun-angle shots that will show the rover tracks, and especially the Apollo 12 site with the Surveyor lander nearby. These are freaking awesome.

157 sammysdad  Sun, Jul 19, 2009 6:23:52am

Big deal. This only shows that the sound stages where all the fakery took place, were actually located on the moon.

Duhh

158 Call me Infidel  Sun, Jul 19, 2009 9:25:56am

re: #155 Fon_Win

Yes I see what you are saying. Actually on the NASA site it is more obvious in the high res photos the light source is actually coming from the left making the right hand side of the craters lighter.

159 Clubsec  Sun, Jul 19, 2009 5:03:26pm

Infidel ... examine the image CAREFULLY. The light source (i.e. the Sun) is from left to right (as it should be in any optical raytrace diagram ;-) and you'll see the dark rim shadow agrees (direction wise) with the shadow of the LEM base section. The 'foot prints' appear to be the shuffle marks of the outbound (placement of instruments) and inbound (returning to their ship ... as it were) trail.
The rectilinear shadow is evidence enough that there is something 'alien' on the lunar surface. But there was a fellow written up in the Tucson paper that was in absolute denial of the lunar landings. His reasons were endless and amusing but I doubt these images will cause him to recant.


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