Klinghoffer Speaks for Maimonides

Science • Views: 3,234

Discovery Institute shill David Klinghoffer is utterly without shame. When he isn’t blaming Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution for inspiring every genocidal dictator in human history, he’s claiming that legendary Jewish physician/philosopher Maimonides was into “intelligent design” creationism.

There you have it: Maimonides was fighting the good intellectual fight for intelligent design almost 800 years ago. It was his top philosophical and scientific concern. For heaven’s sake, do you need any further proof that ID, right or wrong, is at any rate an authentically Jewish cause?

Shameless.

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1566 comments
1 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:24:29pm
ID, right or wrong, is at any rate an authentically Jewish cause?

Is he trying to get Jews to join the ID movement?

2 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:25:06pm

OHHH!

The Rambam said:

"The Torah can not be false. What hhs been proven to be true can not be false by definition. Therefore if your understanding of Torah is contradicted by what has been proven to be true, the only thing that can be wrong is your understanding of Torah."

In other words, if your reading of Torah (Genesis being the first book of it) makes you think that evolution didn't happen, then you are reading it wrong.

Rambam's entire point and thrust was to bridge perceived gaps between Torah and the science of his day.

To say that this punk who misuses him is shameless is an understatement beyond measure.

3 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:25:17pm

The Disco Institute Motto:

Don't ever let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

4 jcm  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:26:22pm

re: #3 freedombilly

The Disco Institute Motto:

Don't ever let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

Facts? we don' need no stinkin' facts!

5 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:26:58pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

OHHH!

The Rambam said:

"The Torah can not be false. What hhs been proven to be true can not be false by definition. Therefore if your understanding of Torah is contradicted by what has been proven to be true, the only thing that can be wrong is your understanding of Torah."

In other words, if your reading of Torah (Genesis being the first book of it) makes you think that evolution didn't happen, then you are reading it wrong.

Rambam's entire point and thrust was to bridge perceived gaps between Torah and the science of his day.

To say that this punk who misuses him is shameless is an understatement beyond measure.

That the DI: If at first you don't succeed, FAIL, FAIL, again.

6 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:28:06pm

I would find these Discovery Institute clowns hilarious if they weren't so terrifying.

7 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:28:28pm

So now the IDers are employing Chicago styled tactics and getting the dead to vote for them. Pathetic.

8 Wendya  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:28:54pm

"Authentically Jewish Cause"?

You've got to be kidding...

9 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:29:21pm

I just read the whole article. What we accept science because we need approval? And what, this nice "Christian" is going to come and tell us how we should read our own books written in our own language?

I am going to channel Mandy here...

I feel it bubbling up in me...

FUCK YOU Klinghoffer. You better not turn out to be one of those pet Jews of their movement.

10 NelsFree  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:29:55pm

Good evening all,

Off to read the article before I comment.

11 American Sabra  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:30:14pm

Well I haven't read the whole article, but he certainly doesn't understand Maimonides. Here is a closer look at Maimonides thoughts:

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

Some medieval philosophical rationalists, such as Maimonides held that it was not required to read Genesis literally. In this view, one was obligated to understand Torah in a way that was compatible with the findings of science. Indeed, Maimonides, one of the great rabbis of the Middle Ages, wrote that if science and Torah were misaligned, it was either because science was not understood or the Torah was misinterpreted. Maimonides argued that if science proved a point, then the finding should be accepted and scripture should be interpreted accordingly. Rabbi Yitzchak of Akko (a 12th-century student of Maimonides, agreed with this view.

12 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:30:45pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

OHHH!

The Rambam said:

"The Torah can not be false. What hhs been proven to be true can not be false by definition. Therefore if your understanding of Torah is contradicted by what has been proven to be true, the only thing that can be wrong is your understanding of Torah."

In other words, if your reading of Torah (Genesis being the first book of it) makes you think that evolution didn't happen, then you are reading it wrong.

Rambam's entire point and thrust was to bridge perceived gaps between Torah and the science of his day.

To say that this punk who misuses him is shameless is an understatement beyond measure.

Well put!

13 American Sabra  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:31:04pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

Sorry, didn't mean to step on you :)

14 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:32:23pm

re: #13 American Sabra

Sorry, didn't mean to step on you :)

LudwigVanQuixote "Crushed, I tell you, I'm crushed"

15 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:32:39pm

re: #11 American Sabra

Well I haven't read the whole article, but he certainly doesn't understand Maimonides. Here is a closer look at Maimonides thoughts:

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

Not taking it all literally goes back even further than Rambam.

The entire point of Talmud and the commentaries is to go beyond the pshat.

Pshat means literal meaning.

16 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:32:41pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

OHHH!

The Rambam said:

"The Torah can not be false. What hhs been proven to be true can not be false by definition. Therefore if your understanding of Torah is contradicted by what has been proven to be true, the only thing that can be wrong is your understanding of Torah."

In other words, if your reading of Torah (Genesis being the first book of it) makes you think that evolution didn't happen, then you are reading it wrong.

Rambam's entire point and thrust was to bridge perceived gaps between Torah and the science of his day.

To say that this punk who misuses him is shameless is an understatement beyond measure.

Yep. And speaking of another enlightened approach to science and religion, check out this excerpt from a talk the Dalai Lama delivered to the Society for Neuroscience in 2005 (emphasis mine)...

On the philosophical level, both Buddhism and modern science share a deep suspicion of any notion of absolutes, whether conceptualized as a transcendent being, as an eternal, unchanging principle such as soul, or as a fundamental substratum of reality. Both Buddhism and science prefer to account for the evolution and emergence of the cosmos and life in terms of the complex interrelations of the natural laws of cause and effect. From the methodological perspective, both traditions emphasize the role of empiricism.

For example, in the Buddhist investigative tradition, between the three recognized sources of knowledge - experience, reason and testimony - it is the evidence of the experience that takes precedence, with reason coming second and testimony last. This means that, in the Buddhist investigation of reality, at least in principle, empirical evidence should triumph over scriptural authority, no matter how deeply venerated a scripture may be. Even in the case of knowledge derived through reason or inference, its validity must derive ultimately from some observed facts of experience.

Because of this methodological standpoint, I have often remarked to my Buddhist colleagues that the empirically verified insights of modern cosmology and astronomy must compel us now to modify, or in some cases reject, many aspects of traditional cosmology as found in ancient Buddhist texts.

And yet, Buddhism is often decried...especially by the Chinese...as "backward" and "superstitious," while modern-day Christianity is on the cutting edge of truth? I don't think so.

17 Gella  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:32:53pm

that is an insult

18 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:33:11pm

re: #13 American Sabra

Sorry, didn't mean to step on you :)

NO you didn't! You rock!

19 American Sabra  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:33:31pm

re: #14 A Kiwi Infidel

LudwigVanQuixote "Crushed, I tell you, I'm crushed"

LOL Ya know, people spend years, a lifetime, studying the RamBam. But this guy's got it down in about 15 minutes. What can I tell ya.

20 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:34:20pm

re: #19 American Sabra

LOL Ya know, people spend years, a lifetime, studying the RamBam. But this guy's got it down in about 15 minutes. What can I tell ya.


Now my curiosity is piqued...

21 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:34:34pm

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

I just read the whole article. What we accept science because we need approval? And what, this nice "Christian" is going to come and tell us how we should read our own books written in our own language?

I am going to channel Mandy here...

I feel it bubbling up in me...

FUCK YOU Klinghoffer. You better not turn out to be one of those pet Jews of their movement.

Who's the "nice 'Christian'"? (Pardon my ignorance, I really don't know who you mean.)

22 legalpad  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:34:43pm

Evolution does not necessarily mean everything happens by "chance". Randomness has patterns, order. It is not the opposite of being "governed" by principles. Randomness is not chaos.

23 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:34:51pm
This is how many Jewish people, hungry for social and intellectual approval, really think.

How insulting! I can't stand smug, self-righteous jerks like klinghoffer.

24 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:35:09pm

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

I can only upding this post once so I will give you a second verbal upding!

Hey Klinghoffer: Piss up a rope!

25 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:35:13pm

"This is how many Jewish people, hungry for social and intellectual approval, really think.": What the hell is that supposed to mean? I'm catching a whiff of what they call country club anti-semitism.

26 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:35:35pm

what a strange looking person

27 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:35:59pm

re: #23 Sharmuta

You beat me to it!!

28 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:36:05pm

re: #15 LudwigVanQuixote

Not taking it all literally goes back even further than Rambam.

The entire point of Talmud and the commentaries is to go beyond the pshat.

Pshat means literal meaning.

That goes to show that the DI cares not a wit about context. It sole monomaniacal focus is on attacking evolution. To this end, they will lie, cheat and steal without shame, having become no better than the leftists they claim to be fighting.

29 CynicalConservative  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:36:31pm

re: #26 SpaceJesus

what a strange looking person

Mirror, mirror...

30 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:36:48pm

re: #25 MrPaulRevere

"This is how many Jewish people, hungry for social and intellectual approval, really think.": What the hell is that supposed to mean? I'm catching a whiff of what they call country club anti-semitism.

A little bit of country club anti-reality as well.

31 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:37:14pm

re: #16 ShanghaiEd

And yet, Buddhism is often decried...especially by the Chinese...as "backward" and "superstitious," while modern-day Christianity is on the cutting edge of truth? I don't think so.

In China?

What?

32 NelsFree  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:37:26pm

You know, when I first saw the name, "Rambam", I thought of Rahm Emmanuel. Who else? Show of hands??

33 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:38:02pm

re: #25 MrPaulRevere

"This is how many Jewish people, hungry for social and intellectual approval, really think.": What the hell is that supposed to mean? I'm catching a whiff of what they call country club anti-semitism.

Absolutely. It's that sort of thinking that leads to demonizing others.

34 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:38:03pm

Klinghoffer is getting absolutely reamed in the comments for his ridiculous post.

35 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:38:20pm

Some idiot also posted a long rambling screed at my blog claiming the Rambam was a vegetarian.

36 SuperdaveTWC  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:38:46pm

Before I comment, let me start with my background. I am a Ph.D. Physical Chemist (theoretical quantum chemistry, combustion kinetics, stratospheric chemistry, aerosol chemistry, laser spectroscopy, etc.). I certainly have no doubts that God is creative with His creation, and that the Genesis account of creation is theologically important, but not scientifically sound. Nevertheless, historically speaking, many racist and eugenicist ideologues anchored their ideologies and merciless inhuman actions (including the Holocaust) on the concept of "Survival of the Fittest" which they gleaned from Darwin's publications and from further scientific publications regarding evolutionary biology. This fact is not arguable.

Just as so-called Christians have used the Biblical account of Jesus' crucifixion as a pretext to persecute Jews in the past, and just as Muslims use certain passages in the Koran and Hadiths to justify slaughter of innocent non-Muslims, secular AND religious people have used evolutionary theory to justify slaughter and persecution of Jews, Blacks, American Indians, etc. since the late 19th century when such science has become mainstream.

37 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:38:57pm

re: #19 American Sabra

LOL Ya know, people spend years, a lifetime, studying the RamBam. But this guy's got it down in about 15 minutes. What can I tell ya.

Ummm who is this guy? Do you mean Klinghoffer or me? You are correct if you are to say that Rambam did more than just try to bridge Torah and the science of his day, but you can't deny he was a rationalist first and foremost and that his commentaries on all subjects are permeated by a rationalist approach. Even Mishna Torah is written like a scientist would write it.

38 J.D.  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:39:15pm

re: #34 Charles

Klinghoffer is getting absolutely reamed in the comments for his ridiculous post.

As well he should.

39 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:40:11pm

re: #31 OldLineTexan

In China?

What?

Oops. My bad syntax, OLT...China hates Buddhism. China doesn't think Christianity is on the cutting edge...people like Klinghoffer claim that Christianty is on the cutting edge of scientific thought.

Sorry for the mixup.

40 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:40:27pm

re: #32 NelsFree

You know, when I first saw the name, "Rambam", I thought of Rahm Emmanuel. Who else? Show of hands??

Bite your tongue.

;-)

41 Bob Dillon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:40:37pm

Proof by assertion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Proof by assertion is a logical fallacy in which a proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction. Sometimes this may be repeated until challenges dry up, at which point it is asserted as fact due to its not being contradicted (argumentum ad nauseam).

The technique is described in a saying, often attributed to Lenin, as "A lie told often enough becomes the truth", [1] although the user may not be intentionally promoting a lie and may just believe an illogical or faulty proposition.

---

Thank you for your relentless challenges, Charles.

42 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:42:12pm

re: #21 capitalist piglet

Who's the "nice 'Christian'"? (Pardon my ignorance, I really don't know who you mean.)

I mean Klinghoffer. I hate it when Christian people tell me how I should read my book and then presume to speak for me.

I have no problem with a Christain telling me that Christians read or interpret certain things in certain ways. Hey it's another religion, of course they do. I have a real problem when some of them turn around and then put words into my or my Tradition's mouth based on their theology. They really are a different religion. Nothing wrong with that, but don't go telling me what my religion says. And if you are going to comment, don't get it wrong.

43 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:42:23pm

re: #36 SuperdaveTWC


I am pleased you used the term "so-called Christians"

44 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:42:47pm

Rambam in More Nevuchim (that's "Guide to the Perplexed" for you guys in Rio Lindo) was addressing the secular science of his time, which claimed that the universe had no beginning; that it had always existed. Rambam argued that there was a moment of Creation (what scientists of today call "The Big Bang.")

Rambam also argued that the account given in Genesis occurred over billions of years, and that it is not intended to be taken literally. He enumerated all the 613 Commandments of the Torah, and belief in a literal Genesis is not included.

45 NelsFree  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:43:00pm

re: #40 dentate

Bite your tongue.

;-)

Of course you'd have to say THAT, Dentate!
/heh

46 jaunte  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:44:18pm

re: #36 SuperdaveTWC

You may be confusing Charles Darwin with Herbert Spencer.

47 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:44:26pm

Joel L. Kraemer says:

Maimonides grasped the great divide between monotheists, who believe that an intelligence guides the universe, and Epicureans, who believe that everything happens by chance. The argument continues nowadays between intelligent adherents of intelligent design and Darwinian atheists who believe in chance mutation.

This Kraemer seems like another ID shill. Not everyone who supports evolution is a "Darwinian atheist", and the "great divide" has been bridged by a number of faiths, such as Catholicism. Theistic evolution doesn't have that divide. Kraemer, in this comment, is either ignorant or a part of the propaganda.

48 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:44:35pm

re: #25 MrPaulRevere

"This is how many Jewish people, hungry for social and intellectual approval, really think.": What the hell is that supposed to mean? I'm catching a whiff of what they call country club anti-semitism.

Just a whiff...

49 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:44:39pm

re: #36 SuperdaveTWC

Before I comment, let me start with my background. I am a Ph.D. Physical Chemist (theoretical quantum chemistry, combustion kinetics, stratospheric chemistry, aerosol chemistry, laser spectroscopy, etc.). I certainly have no doubts that God is creative with His creation, and that the Genesis account of creation is theologically important, but not scientifically sound. Nevertheless, historically speaking, many racist and eugenicist ideologues anchored their ideologies and merciless inhuman actions (including the Holocaust) on the concept of "Survival of the Fittest" which they gleaned from Darwin's publications and from further scientific publications regarding evolutionary biology. This fact is not arguable.

Just as so-called Christians have used the Biblical account of Jesus' crucifixion as a pretext to persecute Jews in the past, and just as Muslims use certain passages in the Koran and Hadiths to justify slaughter of innocent non-Muslims, secular AND religious people have used evolutionary theory to justify slaughter and persecution of Jews, Blacks, American Indians, etc. since the late 19th century when such science has become mainstream.

What??? What's your point? That misuse of a valid theory make the theory invalid? The misapplication of facts observed in the natural world to the realm of human ethics has no bearing on the validity of those facts.

50 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:45:06pm

re: #36 SuperdaveTWC

Just because some scumbags have used evolution to justify their own theories, that does not, repeat not invalidate Darwin's theory.

51 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:45:08pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

OHHH!

The Rambam said:

"The Torah can not be false. What hhs been proven to be true can not be false by definition. Therefore if your understanding of Torah is contradicted by what has been proven to be true, the only thing that can be wrong is your understanding of Torah."

In other words, if your reading of Torah (Genesis being the first book of it) makes you think that evolution didn't happen, then you are reading it wrong.

Rambam's entire point and thrust was to bridge perceived gaps between Torah and the science of his day.

To say that this punk who misuses him is shameless is an understatement beyond measure.

I only regret that I have but one upding to give to this post.

52 jaunte  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:45:55pm

re: #36 SuperdaveTWC

Herbert Spencer was the one who came up with the phrase "survival of the fittest."

53 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:46:25pm

re: #47 Sharmuta

Joel L. Kraemer says:

This Kraemer seems like another ID shill. Not everyone who supports evolution is a "Darwinian atheist", and the "great divide" has been bridged by a number of faiths, such as Catholicism. Theistic evolution doesn't have that divide. Kraemer, in this comment, is either ignorant or a part of the propaganda.

I vote for B: Part of the propaganda. My second choice would C: Ron Paul.

54 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:47:52pm

re: #36 SuperdaveTWC

If you want to blame something for the ugliness in this world, don't blame science. It's human nature itself that can be ugly, and it doesn't need science to prove it.

55 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:47:59pm

re: #32 NelsFree

You know, when I first saw the name, "Rambam", I thought of Rahm Emmanuel. Who else? Show of hands??

Rambam = Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon = Maimonides

Where does "Maimonides" come from? Sounds Greek. I doubt Rav Moshe ever called himself that.

56 NY Nana  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:47:59pm

re: #51 Alouette

I only regret that I have but one upding to give to this post.

Same here!

57 American Sabra  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:48:18pm

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

Ummm who is this guy? Do you mean Klinghoffer or me? You are correct if you are to say that Rambam did more than just try to bridge Torah and the science of his day, but you can't deny he was a rationalist first and foremost and that his commentaries on all subjects are permeated by a rationalist approach. Even Mishna Torah is written like a scientist would write it.

No no, not you. Klinghoffer.

I agree with you completley on the Rambam. However, many Jews do take the Torah literally and do believe in a 6 day Creation scenario. If you read the link I posted to the Jewish Virtually Library on Jews and Evolution, it's in the first paragraph:

The vast majority of classical Rabbis hold that God created the world close to 6,000 years ago, and created Adam and Eve from clay. This view is based on a chronology developed in a midrash, Seder Olam, which was based on a literal reading of the book of Genesis. It is considered to have been written by the Tanna Yose ben Halafta, and cover history from the creation of the universe to the construction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. This chronology is widely accepted among most of Orthodox Judaism today.

So there is that. I don't know how widely discussed the topic is. I do know how Maimonides thought about it which is not what Klinghoffer wrote.

58 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:48:40pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

My second choice would C: Ron Paul.

ID is a conspiracy by joo-bankers and the CFR?

//

59 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:48:43pm

re: #36 SuperdaveTWC

Nevertheless, historically speaking, many racist and eugenicist ideologues anchored their ideologies and merciless inhuman actions (including the Holocaust) on the concept of "Survival of the Fittest" which they gleaned from Darwin's publications and from further scientific publications regarding evolutionary biology. This fact is not arguable.

Yes, it is very arguable, because Charles Darwin never used the term "survival of the fittest."

60 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:49:01pm

re: #36 SuperdaveTWC

Before I comment, let me start with my background. I am a Ph.D. Physical Chemist (theoretical quantum chemistry, combustion kinetics, stratospheric chemistry, aerosol chemistry, laser spectroscopy, etc.). I certainly have no doubts that God is creative with His creation, and that the Genesis account of creation is theologically important, but not scientifically sound. Nevertheless, historically speaking, many racist and eugenicist ideologues anchored their ideologies and merciless inhuman actions (including the Holocaust) on the concept of "Survival of the Fittest" which they gleaned from Darwin's publications and from further scientific publications regarding evolutionary biology. This fact is not arguable.

Just as so-called Christians have used the Biblical account of Jesus' crucifixion as a pretext to persecute Jews in the past, and just as Muslims use certain passages in the Koran and Hadiths to justify slaughter of innocent non-Muslims, secular AND religious people have used evolutionary theory to justify slaughter and persecution of Jews, Blacks, American Indians, etc. since the late 19th century when such science has become mainstream.


so let's say I read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations then go on a rampage killing people who are against globalization or something or other. Does that render Adam Smith and his work evil?

61 SuperdaveTWC  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:49:04pm

re: #46 jaunte

Spencer coined the phrase, "survival of the fittest", but Darwin implied it in his works first before Spencer applied it to sociology and philosophy. Spencer was probably well-meaning, but we all know to where the path of good intentions leads, especially when placed in a government-run central planning context!

62 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:49:07pm

re: #42 LudwigVanQuixote

I mean Klinghoffer. I hate it when Christian people tell me how I should read my book and then presume to speak for me.

I have no problem with a Christain telling me that Christians read or interpret certain things in certain ways. Hey it's another religion, of course they do. I have a real problem when some of them turn around and then put words into my or my Tradition's mouth based on their theology. They really are a different religion. Nothing wrong with that, but don't go telling me what my religion says. And if you are going to comment, don't get it wrong.

Oh, okay. Thank you for responding - I was confused, because his Wiki says he's a practicing Orthodox Jew (is Wiki in error?), and I thought you were talking about him, but I wasn't sure.

63 pat  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:49:14pm

We have an eclipse.

64 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:49:18pm

re: #42 LudwigVanQuixote

I mean Klinghoffer. I hate it when Christian people tell me how I should read my book and then presume to speak for me.

Klinghoffer is Jewish. Like Ben Stein.

Oy.

65 NelsFree  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:50:06pm

I'm gonna call it a night. Right after...My Three Affectations!
Sharmuta: you speak for so many of us *hug*
Shanghai Ed: "there you go again" -Ronald Reagan
SuperDave TWC: let the karma take its toll

G'nite all!

66 funky chicken  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:50:24pm

re: #6 freedombilly

I would find these Discovery Institute clowns hilarious if they weren't so terrifying.

I think the more Klinghoffer talks, the more he discredits himself. Since the DI lets him be one of their mouthpieces, he also discredits them at the same time.

win, win

67 ted  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:50:34pm

Has not science been enriched by the many great Jewish scientists?
Klinghoffer has this whole thing ass backwards.

68 Digital Display  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:50:48pm

re: #65 NelsFree

I'm gonna call it a night. Right after...My Three Affectations!
Sharmuta: you speak for so many of us *hug*
Shanghai Ed: "there you go again" -Ronald Reagan
SuperDave TWC: let the karma take its toll

G'nite all!

Have a great evening!

70 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:51:24pm

re: #55 Alouette

Rambam = Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon = Maimonides

Where does "Maimonides" come from? Sounds Greek. I doubt Rav Moshe ever called himself that.

It's actually a Ladino root.

I promise that neither he nor any Rabbi who got an acronym, Rashi, Rambam, Rambn etc... ever called themselves by such an honorific. If you were his friend, he probably went by Moshe. I'm sure that's what his wife called him.

71 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:51:25pm

re: #64 dentate

Klinghoffer is Jewish. Like Ben Stein.

Oy.

Like Michael Medved. Gah.

72 albusteve  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:51:26pm

how long before he is mainstreamed by ABC News?...another conservative crackpot to use

73 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:52:05pm

re: #70 LudwigVanQuixote

It's actually a Ladino root.

I promise that neither he nor any Rabbi who got an acronym, Rashi, Rambam, Rambn etc... ever called themselves by such an honorific. If you were his friend, he probably went by Moshe. I'm sure that's what his wife called him.

I'm sure he was called Dr. Maimon or the equivalent.

74 jaunte  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:52:48pm

re: #61 SuperdaveTWC

To imagine that planning in political, economic, and social terms is an application of evolutionary biology just means that the planner (Spencer, for example, who imagined a plan could be achieved) knows nothing about evolutionary biology. Darwin was studying and theorizing about evolutionary biology.

75 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:53:28pm

re: #62 capitalist piglet

Oh, okay. Thank you for responding - I was confused, because his Wiki says he's a practicing Orthodox Jew (is Wiki in error?), and I thought you were talking about him, but I wasn't sure.

The Wiki is not in error. The practice of Orthodox Judaism does not by itself inoculate the practitioner against stupidity, ignorance, or prevarication, unfortunately.

76 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:53:32pm

re: #61 SuperdaveTWC

re: #46 jaunte

Spencer coined the phrase, "survival of the fittest", but Darwin implied it in his works first before Spencer applied it to sociology and philosophy. Spencer was probably well-meaning, but we all know to where the path of good intentions leads, especially when placed in a government-run central planning context!

How does that last sentence relate to evolution? We're not talking about forcing people to believe in anything, only about which ideas are true. Government hasn't even come up, though I can see how it might.

77 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:54:22pm

Remember lizards- be sure to visit Seven's alehouse while in Bosotn.

78 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:54:26pm

re: #62 capitalist piglet

Oh, okay. Thank you for responding - I was confused, because his Wiki says he's a practicing Orthodox Jew (is Wiki in error?), and I thought you were talking about him, but I wasn't sure.

I was terrified from the last name that he might turn out to be a Jew, that's why I made the comment I did about pet Jews of their movement. I was scared to look.

Now I am totally pissed off.

The only thing I hate more than Christians or Muslims misquoting or twisting the Tradition to their own ends are Jews who do so.

This guy clearly never read Rambam.

79 SuperdaveTWC  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:54:35pm

Many of you misunderstand me. I do not fault Darwin and the rest of us who have chosen science as our profession and passion. I do not fault the FACT of evolution. I CERTAINLY do not fault Christianity (my core)! I fault those who would take elements of truth out of context, apply these elements to other contexts to which they may be completely irrelevant, then impose their own self-guided "morality" on entire populations using the force of government!

80 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:54:38pm

er...Boston.

81 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:55:00pm

:Breaking News:

Thucydides says Spartans are fighting a good intellectual fight.

82 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:55:23pm

re: #70 LudwigVanQuixote

It's actually a Ladino root.

I promise that neither he nor any Rabbi who got an acronym, Rashi, Rambam, Rambn etc... ever called themselves by such an honorific. If you were his friend, he probably went by Moshe. I'm sure that's what his wife called him.

I don't think it is Ladino. "-ides" is a Greek ending meaning "of the family of," thus would be a Greco-Latin version of "ben Maimon," essentially his last name; he was known as Moses Maimonides to the Christian world.

83 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:55:31pm

re: #61 SuperdaveTWC

I don't know why you're making this comparison to government and economics. Evolution wouldn't be the "central planning" form of government- it's actually more akin to capitalism.

84 Throbert McGee  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:55:35pm

Coincidentally, I just referenced Mr. David Klinghoffer in a post on the "Jupiter Gets Hit" thread -- and I did my best to elucidate the difference between Intelligent Design and "theistic evolution," a distinction that Klinghoffer still doesn't get. (Or possibly he does get the distinction, but he's chosen to side with medievalism.)

I've also previously taken issue with Klinghoffer on gay-rights issues, and here, as with evolution, Klinghoffer is "close but no cigar."

On the one hand, he is relatively humane and tolerant on the subject of homosexuality -- but on the other hand, the point that eludes him is that just possibly, a leetle bit of homosexuality within a mostly heterosexual population is actually better, from a group-survival POV, than zero-homosexuality.)

85 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:55:38pm

The Challenge of Creation by Nathan Slifkin uses the writings of Maimonides and other sages to defend the teaching of evolution as completely compatible with Jewish belief.

86 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:56:12pm

re: #79 SuperdaveTWC

Many of you misunderstand me. I do not fault Darwin and the rest of us who have chosen science as our profession and passion. I do not fault the FACT of evolution. I CERTAINLY do not fault Christianity (my core)! I fault those who would take elements of truth out of context, apply these elements to other contexts to which they may be completely irrelevant, then impose their own self-guided "morality" on entire populations using the force of government!

Then I trust you fault the DI for their misuse of historical writings, correct?

87 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:56:50pm

re: #79 SuperdaveTWC

I fault those who would take elements of truth out of context, apply these elements to other contexts to which they may be completely irrelevant, then impose their own self-guided "morality" on entire populations using the force of government!

So you oppose intelligent design in public schools?

88 solomonpanting  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:57:25pm

re: #61 SuperdaveTWC

re: #46 jaunte

Spencer coined the phrase, "survival of the fittest", but Darwin implied it in his works first before Spencer applied it to sociology and philosophy. Spencer was probably well-meaning, but we all know to where the path of good intentions leads, especially when placed in a government-run central planning context!

And the epitome of that central planning would be those communist entities we've come to love so well. I thought they held "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" in high regard, and that doesn't sound very Darwinist to me.

89 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:57:31pm

re: #64 dentate

Klinghoffer is Jewish. Like Ben Stein.

Oy.

Really I want to say kreia.

90 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:57:42pm

re: #70 LudwigVanQuixote

It's actually a Ladino root.

I promise that neither he nor any Rabbi who got an acronym, Rashi, Rambam, Rambn etc... ever called themselves by such an honorific. If you were his friend, he probably went by Moshe. I'm sure that's what his wife called him.

Speaking of honorifics, I'm reminded of a joke:

First day of first grade, and the teacher is filling out paperwork for students. "What's your father's name?" she asks one boy.

"Daddy," he says.

She chuckles. "No, no. I mean, what does your mother call him?"

The boy wracks his brain a minute. "Nothing," he says, then adds: "Unless she gets real mad."

91 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:57:58pm

re: #87 Sharmuta

So you oppose intelligent design in public schools?

The public schools in our town don't seem to have been designed very intelligently. :-(

92 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:58:21pm

re: #82 dentate

I don't think it is Ladino. "-ides" is a Greek ending meaning "of the family of," thus would be a Greco-Latin version of "ben Maimon," essentially his last name; he was known as Moses Maimonides to the Christian world.

Yes, but only the Sephardi used the Greek roots in Ladino.

93 SuperdaveTWC  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:58:24pm

#86 Dark Falcon:

Then I trust you fault the DI for their misuse of historical writings, correct?

Does the word, "duh" mean anything to you? ;-)

95 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 8:59:55pm

regarding the book cited..

One of Maimonides' great theological innovations, for example, was his Thirteen Principles of Faith, a list of Judaism's central beliefs. As Judaism is a religion founded on law and not on belief per se, no such creed had been attempted before. But the notion of principles, or pillars, of faith had existed for some time in Islam, and Kraemer contends that several of Maimonides's specific articles of faith -- including the first (God's existence), second (divine unity) and particularly the third (God is not a corporeal being) -- reflect the influence of such Islamic thinkers as al-Farabi, Ibn Sina and Ibn Tumart, founder of the Almohad movement.

Articles of faith aren't science.

96 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:00:06pm

re: #92 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, but only the Sephardi used the Greek roots in Ladino.

Actually I am wrong on this. The Sephardi adopted it from the Greek, after that became his title.

97 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:00:56pm

re: #95 Mich-again

regarding the book cited..

Articles of faith aren't science.

NO, they aren't. However, if you think of them like axioms, his application of them was very scientific in terms of the structure of his arguments.

98 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:01:23pm

re: #93 SuperdaveTWC

Then why are you blaming Darwin for the distortion of his work promoted by others?

99 pat  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:02:14pm

The odd thing about an eclipse, for those who have never experienced one, is how cold it gets.

100 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:03:16pm

re: #93 SuperdaveTWC

#86 Dark Falcon:

Does the word, "duh" mean anything to you? ;-)

Yes, it does Buffy, yes it does.

101 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:05:13pm

It is quite obvious, with even a cursory glance at Maimonedes writings, that he believed in intelligent design.

Whether that is relevant in 2009 is a different matter, as is whether Maimonedes would be a believer of intelligent design if he lived in the present. But I do not see it as a distortion of Maimonedes to say he did believe in intelligence design.

I believe intelligent design is a religious cause, including a Jewish cause. If you do not believe there was an intelligent designer of the world, then why even have religion?

Mind you, I am not saying that I believe in intelligent design, and certainly as a non-science, it should be avoided at all costs in science class. But whether Judaism (and all major faiths) support intelligent design is a different matter,

102 legalpad  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:05:35pm

re: #99 pat

The odd thing about an eclipse, for those who have never experienced one, is how cold it gets.

I was working outside in the middle of a cloudless day, when it suddenly got seriously dark. "What the hell?", I thought. I'd missed the news aboput the partial eclipse.

103 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:07:17pm

In short, I do not believe the Klinghoffer article shameless. Rather, he simply expounds the mainstream religious perspective.

This is an extremely touchy matter, as his article goes to the heart of the debate of intelligence design, and its interaction with mainstream religious doctrine.

104 Wendya  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:07:24pm

As if this didn't provide pretty damned conclusive evidence that Klinghoffer is a moron... I happened to run across this on the sidebar:

[Link: blog.beliefnet.com...]

105 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:07:27pm

re: #97 LudwigVanQuixote

NO, they aren't. However, if you think of them like axioms, his application of them was very scientific in terms of the structure of his arguments.

AND they were so popular that they became a regular element of morning prayers. But, the absurdity of this is really to set Maimonides against Darwin, who lived more than 600 years later. I have a strong impression that if Darwin had sat down with Maimonides and presented him with his construct, Maimonides would have been (a) impressed, and (b) not seen anything contradictory to his principles. To quote Darwin's closing of his first edition of Origin:

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved."

106 Ojoe  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:08:13pm

re: #94 jcm

Nice. Thank you.

107 jaunte  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:08:40pm

Klinghoffer forgot to mention who ben Maimon wanted to chair the Texas State Board of Education.

108 SuperdaveTWC  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:08:44pm

#88 Solomonpanting:

And the epitome of that central planning would be those communist entities we've come to love so well. I thought they held "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" in high regard, and that doesn't sound very Darwinist to me.

Pure Communism is supposed to be the end result of human social evolution. The Dictatorship of the Proletariat is only the means toward that end. German, Italian, and Spanish Fascism in the early-to-mid 20th century, while in many ways practically indistinguishable from Soviet-style Communist Socialism to the average citizen (i.e. they were all centrally-planned top-down autocracies), was the end unto itself. So-called "Social Darwinism" was at the core of these Fascist ideologies, especially in Germany.

109 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:10:40pm

This is what I posted on his board.

The Rambam said:

"The Torah can not be false. What has been proven to be true can not be false by definition. Therefore if your understanding of Torah is contradicted by what has been proven to be true, the only thing that can be wrong is your understanding of Torah."

In other words, if your reading of Torah (Genesis being the first book of it) makes you think that evolution didn't happen, then you are reading it wrong.

Rambam's entire point and thrust was to bridge perceived gaps between Torah and the science of his day. You clearly have never read him.

Your assertion that we Jews who choose not to live in the dark ages are somehow poor misguided souls who were tempted away from the Tradition by assimilation is terribly insulting.

Further, if you are a practicing Jew, then you should know a few things about what the Tradition says. For one, we assert that Hashem knows the future. Therefore, since a random event is something that can not be predicted, by definition, nothing is ever random to Hashem.

Did you miss that bit?

Further, since when is Parsha Bereshit something that is only to be read at the pshat level? Do you perhaps deny all of the Talmudic commentary that comes to explain this or that meaning beyond the pshat? If indeed we do not hold to just the pshat, is there not room for looking more deeply into the verses and not being so literalist as to deny scientific facts?

What do you make of the Arizal's calculation of the age of the universe which set it at 14 billion years? Do we Jews not have Cabalah as well?

You are not a spokesperson for the Tradition. You simply do not understand it well enough to comment.

110 Throbert McGee  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:10:53pm

re: #84 Throbert McGee

the point that eludes [Klinghoffer] is that just possibly, a leetle bit of homosexuality within a mostly heterosexual population is actually better, from a group-survival POV, than zero-homosexuality.)

To expand on this, what I mean is that homosexual behavior is not necessarily "useless" in natural-selection terms, despite what Klinghoffer and conservative Catholics would argue -- although admittedly, you don't want huge numbers of homos in your population.

Why are homosexuals potentially "useful" in evolutionary terms, as long as there aren't too many of 'em? Well, for starters, consider that homosexual adults can do the same labor as heterosexual adults, yet on average they tend not to have dependent offspring of their own. Thus, homos represent a surplus labor pool for social-living mammals. Furthermore, homos don't compete with their hetero siblings for reproductive opportunities. Or, in modern terms: A straight male can send his wife or girlfriend to the mall with her gay male friend, safe in the knowledge that the presence of a male companion will discourage both muggers and Don Juans -- yet the gay dude won't try to have sex with the lady. (Credit for this "mall-companion" argument goes to the excellent Seanbaby, of Seanbaby fame.)

Ergo, having a smallish number of homos in the mix makes really good sense!

111 Wendya  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:11:00pm

re: #103 Daria Emmons

In short, I do not believe the Klinghoffer article shameless. Rather, he simply expounds the mainstream religious perspective.

This is an extremely touchy matter, as his article goes to the heart of the debate of intelligence design, and its interaction with mainstream religious doctrine.

I find it shameless that so many people feel the need to play the "God is on my side of the issue" game.

112 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:11:03pm

re: #84 Throbert McGee
Hi there Throbert! Um, you said, in part, "a leetle bit of homosexuality within a mostly heterosexual population is actually better, from a group-survival POV, than zero-homosexuality.)"

Why just a leetle bit? I mean yes, we need heterosexuals or men and women who can pretend to be heterosexuals long enough for reproduction of the species, but I believe that there are a lot of gay couples out there who are SUPERB parents to children they've adopted. So why just a leetle?!

113 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:11:04pm

re: #101 Daria Emmons

I think it's intellectually dishonest to claim a historical figure thinks anything about modern issues- especially on matters of science, where the historical figure never had an opportunity to examine the evidence for themselves. This is no different than claiming Newton as a creationist. Of course he was- Darwin was well after Newton's time.

I also think it's logically fallacious. If the creationists had something of substance to bolster their position- they wouldn't have to rely on putting words in the mouths of the dead.

114 SuperdaveTWC  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:11:23pm

#98 Sharmuta

Then why are you blaming Darwin for the distortion of his work promoted by others?

I am not. I am blaming the distorters of ANY truth for their self-promoting distortions of truth, whether the truth is Biblical or scientific.

115 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:12:29pm

re: #110 Throbert McGee
Uh, nevermind my #112 - didn't see your 110.
Thankew anyway!

116 NY Nana  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:13:38pm

re: #80 Fenway_Nation

er...Boston.

Nope. Bahstahn!

I should know...I was born there and used to talk funny. ;)

117 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:14:19pm

re: #115 realwest

Uh, nevermind my #112 - didn't see your 110.
Thankew anyway!

Hello, RW. How are you tonight?

118 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:15:01pm

re: #116 NY Nana
Whaddya mean "used to talk funny"? Youse is still in or near enough to NYC to talk funny ain't youse?
Test: pronounce water. G'head!

119 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:15:47pm

re: #103 Daria Emmons

I think it's shameless to use the dead. Maimonides can't speak for himself.

120 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:15:53pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon
Hi there Dark_Falcon - I am ok, I guess. How are you doing this evening?

121 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:15:53pm

re: #113 Sharmuta

I think it's intellectually dishonest to claim a historical figure thinks anything about modern issues- especially on matters of science, where the historical figure never had an opportunity to examine the evidence for themselves. This is no different than claiming Newton as a creationist. Of course he was- Darwin was well after Newton's time.

I also think it's logically fallacious. If the creationists had something of substance to bolster their position- they wouldn't have to rely on putting words in the mouths of the dead.

All true, and yet I honestly believe that at the heart of evolution v. intelligent design is whether God created the universe.

To the extent that Maimonedes would have been a religious philosopher in 2009, I cannot see how he would not believe in intelligent design.

As I said before, I believe intelligent design is not science. But the question of whether or not God created the universe and interferes in our lives today is the central one in Judaism and all major religions, and so it is also intellectually dishonest to deny that.

Again, I am not saying this as a believer in intelligent design, but rather as someone who has spent years studying religion and come to this conclusion.

122 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:16:40pm

re: #116 NY Nana

Wikked funny...

123 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:16:53pm

re: #113 Sharmuta

100% correct. It is the height of dishonesty to claim so and so who lived hundreds or thousands of years ago would support a current argument.

124 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:17:48pm

re: #123 MrPaulRevere

100% correct. It is the height of dishonesty to claim so and so who lived hundreds or thousands of years ago would support a current argument.

Thomas Jefferson would have agreed with you!

/

125 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:18:16pm

re: #124 OldLineTexan
ROTFL! How are ya tonight OLT?

126 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:19:15pm

re: #121 Daria Emmons

Science can't speak to the issue of God. And this isn't about whether or not God created the universe - that is a DI talking point. Evolution and God can exist side by side quite well. The only thing standing in the way of a reconciliation between science and faith are charlatans.

127 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:19:23pm

re: #121 Daria Emmons

All true, and yet I honestly believe that at the heart of evolution v. intelligent design is whether God created the universe.

No. "Darwinian" evolutionary theory is a model describing the process of speciation and adaptation by means of natural selection. It says NOTHING regarding the origin of the universe, which is an utterly unrelated issue. I again quote Darwin:

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved."
128 myairplane  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:19:30pm

Im confused!

Doesnt the first of the 13 principles of faith that Maimonides formulates include the text " I believe the God created the world.."

Wouldn't this clearly make him a Creationist? Why is Charles so surprised?

See here for translation of all 13 principles

129 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:19:30pm

rw, how are you feeling tonight my friend?

130 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:19:36pm

re: #125 realwest

ROTFL! How are ya tonight OLT?

About to pack it in, real old buddy. Good to see you.

131 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:21:49pm

re: #128 myairplane

I believe God created the world- in pretty much the way the scientists have said.

132 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:22:05pm

re: #120 realwest

Hi there Dark_Falcon - I am ok, I guess. How are you doing this evening?

Under severe job-related stress. The stuff just feels like its piling up with no end in sight. I know its nothing campared to what others are facing but it still hurts, a lot.

133 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:22:24pm

re: #128 myairplane

Maimonides principle #1 does not say anything about HOW these things are created. For the third and last time tonight, here is Darwin himself, end of First Edition of Origin:

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved."
134 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:22:37pm

re: #129 freedombilly
I'm feeling ok my friend, how are you doing?

135 subsailor68  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:22:52pm

Evening all!!! I've read the posts above. I'm glad to see so many friends here. Are we talking about something important?

136 jcm  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:23:03pm

re: #128 myairplane

Im confused!

Doesnt the first of the 13 principles of faith that Maimonides formulates include the text " I believe the God created the world.."

Wouldn't this clearly make him a Creationist? Why is Charles so surprised?

See here for translation of all 13 principles

There's a difference between believing in God creating the world, and trying to make it science. Creationists are trying to make faith into science.

137 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:23:35pm

re: #130 OldLineTexan
Well real old buddy, I reckon you should pack it in, cause ya know, you need your rest!
/

138 myairplane  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:23:38pm

re: 131 and 133

Got it.

Many thanks.

139 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:24:11pm

re: #137 realwest

Well real old buddy, I reckon you should pack it in, cause ya know, you need your rest!
/

Beauty and otherwise.

140 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:24:31pm

re: #132 Dark_Falcon
Uh, two quick questions for you: what kind of work do you do and where do you work?

141 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:25:17pm

re: #108 SuperdaveTWC

#88 Solomonpanting:

Pure Communism is supposed to be the end result of human social evolution. The Dictatorship of the Proletariat is only the means toward that end. German, Italian, and Spanish Fascism in the early-to-mid 20th century, while in many ways practically indistinguishable from Soviet-style Communist Socialism to the average citizen (i.e. they were all centrally-planned top-down autocracies), was the end unto itself. So-called "Social Darwinism" was at the core of these Fascist ideologies, especially in Germany.

Wrong. Evolutionary theory is the exact opposite of eugenics In a social context, evolutionary theorists would advise allowing selection to proceed unhindered, while eugenicists can never resist endeavoring to impose their own pet 'intelligent' designs upon the process.

Rather than being an outgrowth of Darwin's evolutionary theory, eugenics is actually the practice of applying selective culling and breeding - itself practiced since time immemorial with crops and livestock - to human populations. The first person of note known to recommend this course of action in writing was Plato, in his work The Republic, which was disseminated more than a millennium before Charles Darwin was even born.

142 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:25:56pm

re: #128 myairplane

Im confused!

Doesnt the first of the 13 principles of faith that Maimonides formulates include the text " I believe the God created the world.."

Wouldn't this clearly make him a Creationist? Why is Charles so surprised?

See here for translation of all 13 principles

Of course he believed G-d created the world. He also believed that G-d did it in an ordered way.

IN otherwords, he believed in science too. He believed that G-d made the rules and then was bound by his own rules. For instance Rambam has a great argument that even G-d could not make a plane triangle have angles that summed to anything other than 180 degrees - because once G-d made the rules of triangles, he bound themselves to following the rules.

Another important Rambam comes from his interpretation of the first verse of Bereshit. Literally the first mention of G-d is in the plural. Rambam interprets that of G-d, and the rules He made, making the universe. Others consider that to be G-d and the Heavenly hosts he made, but Rambam was a scientist in his way of thinking.

143 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:26:29pm

re: #133 dentate

And I agree completely with Darwin. Studying science, biology and evolution have made me feel closer to all of life and caused me to marvel at the brilliance of God.

144 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:26:30pm

re: #127 dentate

Ultimately, Judaism believes that the universe was created by God, and human beings were created by God separate from animals.

I spent at least a year studying exactly this very issue, asking numerous rabbis on the topic.

I honestly believe that intelligent design is what mainstream Judaism (and Christianity and Islam) proscribes.

Even the most basic rituals in these religions bely this. Why would there be prayer in these faiths, if there was not an idea that there was omnipotent force which answers prayer and interferes in our daily lives?

This does not make it "right," but it is what I have come to see.

We are fooling ourselves if we believe that religion and science do not have at least some level of dispute over evolution, and the notion of natural selection and evolution from primates, which leaves God out of the equation.

Again, none of this renders intelligent design wrong. But it is this very issue which has resulted in the furor over intelligent design to begin with.

145 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:26:44pm

re: #139 OldLineTexan
Who said anything about beauty? I mean there's not enough rest in the world for you to beco...uh,
nevermind. Have a good nights sleep!

146 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:26:51pm

re: #94 jcm

Nice.

147 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:27:02pm

re: #109 LudwigVanQuixote

This is what I posted on his board.

The Rambam said:

"The Torah can not be false. What has been proven to be true can not be false by definition. Therefore if your understanding of Torah is contradicted by what has been proven to be true, the only thing that can be wrong is your understanding of Torah."

In other words, if your reading of Torah (Genesis being the first book of it) makes you think that evolution didn't happen, then you are reading it wrong.

Rambam's entire point and thrust was to bridge perceived gaps between Torah and the science of his day. You clearly have never read him.

Your assertion that we Jews who choose not to live in the dark ages are somehow poor misguided souls who were tempted away from the Tradition by assimilation is terribly insulting.

Further, if you are a practicing Jew, then you should know a few things about what the Tradition says. For one, we assert that Hashem knows the future. Therefore, since a random event is something that can not be predicted, by definition, nothing is ever random to Hashem.

Did you miss that bit?

Further, since when is Parsha Bereshit something that is only to be read at the pshat level? Do you perhaps deny all of the Talmudic commentary that comes to explain this or that meaning beyond the pshat? If indeed we do not hold to just the pshat, is there not room for looking more deeply into the verses and not being so literalist as to deny scientific facts?

What do you make of the Arizal's calculation of the age of the universe which set it at 14 billion years? Do we Jews not have Cabalah as well?

You are not a spokesperson for the Tradition. You simply do not understand it well enough to comment.

Very well put, and updinged.

148 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:27:02pm

re: #134 realwest

Glad to hear that. I woke up in Norfolk, flew to NYC, drove to Jersey, fly to Texas on Thursday. Busy these days but business is good so I can't complain.

Keeping you in my thoughts...take care of yourself and that is an order!

Goodnight everyone.

149 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:28:26pm

re: #140 realwest

Uh, two quick questions for you: what kind of work do you do and where do you work?

I sell mobile phones for Sprint in the Chicago suburbs. They've gone and raised our quotas and a lot of people are struggling.

150 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:28:58pm

re: #144 Daria Emmons

Ultimately, Judaism believes that the universe was created by God, and human beings were created by God separate from animals.

I spent at least a year studying exactly this very issue, asking numerous rabbis on the topic.

I honestly believe that intelligent design is what mainstream Judaism (and Christianity and Islam) proscribes.

Even the most basic rituals in these religions bely this. Why would there be prayer in these faiths, if there was not an idea that there was omnipotent force which answers prayer and interferes in our daily lives?

This does not make it "right," but it is what I have come to see.

We are fooling ourselves if we believe that religion and science do not have at least some level of dispute over evolution, and the notion of natural selection and evolution from primates, which leaves God out of the equation.

Again, none of this renders intelligent design wrong. But it is this very issue which has resulted in the furor over intelligent design to begin with.

PLease see my 142. Of course we believe in Hashem. Of course in a loose sense we do believe in an intelligent designer. We believe part of His design were the laws of physics.

151 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:29:20pm

re: #147 Alouette

Very well put, and updinged.

Thanks!

152 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:29:51pm

re: #144 Daria Emmons

I think you are confusing "intelligent design" with "theistic evolution".

Insisting there is a conflict between science and faith looks partisan.

153 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:30:14pm

re: #121 Daria Emmons

All true, and yet I honestly believe that at the heart of evolution v. intelligent design is whether God created the universe.

To the extent that Maimonedes would have been a religious philosopher in 2009, I cannot see how he would not believe in intelligent design.

As I said before, I believe intelligent design is not science. But the question of whether or not God created the universe and interferes in our lives today is the central one in Judaism and all major religions, and so it is also intellectually dishonest to deny that.

Again, I am not saying this as a believer in intelligent design, but rather as someone who has spent years studying religion and come to this conclusion.

Daria: You make your points well, but I would argue that the theory of evolution...and even, I would venture, the "Big Bang theory"...say nothing about whether God created the universe, only about how it was created. Anything past that is a rhetorical construct, I think.

Neither does either theory offer any answer as to whether, or how, God intervenes in our daily lives. Since there's no way of proving it, it will remain a question of religion and not of science.

I believe you're onto something by making that connection, though. I'm guessing that a lot of people are uneasy with the theory of evolution because interpreting it as a hands-off proposition for God would imply that mankind is totally on its/our own today with no hope of a supreme power rushing in to stop us from our self-destructive folly. Make sense?

154 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:30:39pm

re: #148 freedombilly
Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts - good night and sleep well.

155 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:31:49pm

re: #144 Daria Emmons

We are fooling ourselves if we believe that religion and science do not have at least some level of dispute over evolution, and the notion of natural selection and evolution from primates, which leaves God out of the equation.

You better let the Pope know he's fooling himself.

156 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:32:43pm

re: #150 LudwigVanQuixote

PLease see my 142. Of course we believe in Hashem. Of course in a loose sense we do believe in an intelligent designer. We believe part of His design were the laws of physics.

Genesis very clearly says God created mankind separate from animals. It takes an extremely strained view of the Torah to interpret it differently. Modern Orthodoxy believes in this notion of a "divine day," wherein each day of creation equaled billions of years. But it also believes in intelligent design. I traveled to Israel and back and have not met an Orthodox rabbi that believes otherwise.

Again, I am not saying this means evolution is wrong. But I see a conflict in science and religion.

157 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:32:52pm

re: #154 realwest

Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts - good night and sleep well.

I ain't the only one keeping you in my thoughts around here rw!

And you are welcome. Sleep now for real...

158 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:33:25pm

re: #144 Daria Emmons

Ultimately, Judaism believes that the universe was created by God, and human beings were created by God separate from animals.

I spent at least a year studying exactly this very issue, asking numerous rabbis on the topic.

I honestly believe that intelligent design is what mainstream Judaism (and Christianity and Islam) proscribes.

Even the most basic rituals in these religions bely this. Why would there be prayer in these faiths, if there was not an idea that there was omnipotent force which answers prayer and interferes in our daily lives?

This does not make it "right," but it is what I have come to see.

We are fooling ourselves if we believe that religion and science do not have at least some level of dispute over evolution, and the notion of natural selection and evolution from primates, which leaves God out of the equation.

Again, none of this renders intelligent design wrong. But it is this very issue which has resulted in the furor over intelligent design to begin with.

The empirical evidence is in, and the DNA evidence in general, and the artifactual retroviral DNA evidence in particular, conclusively demonstrates that all of life generally, and humans and great apes particularly, evolutionaily diverged from ancient common ancestors, beyond a shadow of a rational startistical doubt:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

159 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:33:41pm

re: #144 Daria Emmons

I spent at least a year studying exactly this very issue, asking numerous rabbis on the topic.

I honestly believe that intelligent design is what mainstream Judaism (and Christianity and Islam) proscribes.

Even the most basic rituals in these religions bely this.

First, what are you calling "mainstream" Judaism, and what rabbis did you ask? No doubt you can find ultra-orthodox literalists in every religion. Such rabbis do not necessarily reflect the 3000 year tradition or majority understanding of Judaism. For at least the last 2000 of those years, non-literal interpretation of the Torah has been a mainstay of rabbinic Judaism, though the old saying "two Jews, three opinions" has always been the case. You need to directly reference your source when you make a statement like this. Also, please look up the definitions of "proscribe" and "belie"

160 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:33:53pm

re: #149 Dark_Falcon
Yes, I remember your talking about meeting your sales quotas.
But let me ask you a question or two (if you want to do this by e-mail, that's cool too, my nic's in blue):
a) do y'all get paid on a commission basis or commission plus salary or just salary
b) what would happen if you didn't make your quotas and
c) is there any other kind of work for which you are qualified and for which there may be jobs available?

161 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:34:48pm

re: #155 Sharmuta

You better let the Pope know he's fooling himself.

The Pope is an intelligent designer as far as I know.

Listen, intelligent design is the least important topic to me. But I believe in being intellectually honest, and I honestly do see a very clear dispute between science and religion when it comes to evolution. This very topic led to my agnosticism.

162 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:35:16pm

re: #156 Daria Emmons

There is only a conflict for fundamentalists/literalists. The vast majority of Jews and Christians accept the Torah/Bible are not literal.

163 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:36:23pm

re: #161 Daria Emmons

No- the Pope is not a "intelligent design" advocate! The Vatican has utterly rejected ID as not only bad science but BAD FAITH.

164 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:36:35pm

re: #159 dentate

First, what are you calling "mainstream" Judaism, and what rabbis did you ask? No doubt you can find ultra-orthodox literalists in every religion. Such rabbis do not necessarily reflect the 3000 year tradition or majority understanding of Judaism. For at least the last 2000 of those years, non-literal interpretation of the Torah has been a mainstay of rabbinic Judaism, though the old saying "two Jews, three opinions" has always been the case. You need to directly reference your source when you make a statement like this. Also, please look up the definitions of "proscribe" and "belie"

I spoke to mainstream Modern Orthos, who are not ultra-ortho, and I know the difference.

Ultra-Orthos are young earthers. Modern Orthodox believe in intelligent design, but an old earth which is numerous billions of years old. This is at least based off the numerous people I have spoken to, and I am extremely vocal and spoke to a plethora of people on the subject.

165 NY Nana  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:37:01pm

re: #122 Fenway_Nation

Wikked funny...

Would you believe that when my Brooklyn-born husband, who was drafted the day after he graduated from CCNY, in 1962, and after Basic at Fort Dix was sent to the now-defunct Boston Army Base, never heard the word 'wicked' used as it is now? We met in Brooklyn where I was a nursing student, and graduated in 1960, and worked at the hospital I trained in.

We married in Brookline, but moved back to NY in 1965, after NY Grampa was out of the Army, and working on 128. My poor parents zt"l were heartbroken, as we now had a son, who was almost 2, and I was pregnant with our daughter.

Now? Nearly all my cousins live in FL and CA.

Ahhh, Bahstahn.

166 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:39:13pm

re: #164 Daria Emmons

The Creationists got to you at some point.

Intelligent Design IS NOT a merging of faith and science.

Intelligent Design IS creationism.

You are confusing theistic evolution and ID. They are distinct and separate theories at conflict with each other.

167 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:39:36pm

re: #163 Sharmuta

No- the Pope is not a "intelligent design" advocate! The Vatican has utterly rejected ID as not only bad science but BAD FAITH.

I had no idea the Vatican came out with a new dictate on intelligent design.

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

Thanks for the heads up.

168 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:39:40pm

re: #161 Daria Emmons

The Pope is an intelligent designer as far as I know.

Listen, intelligent design is the least important topic to me. But I believe in being intellectually honest, and I honestly do see a very clear dispute between science and religion when it comes to evolution. This very topic led to my agnosticism.

Pope John Paul II accepted evolution:

[Link: www.newadvent.org...]

So does Pope Benedict:

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

169 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:40:06pm

re: #156 Daria Emmons

Genesis very clearly says God created mankind separate from animals. It takes an extremely strained view of the Torah to interpret it differently. Modern Orthodoxy believes in this notion of a "divine day," wherein each day of creation equaled billions of years. But it also believes in intelligent design. I traveled to Israel and back and have not met an Orthodox rabbi that believes otherwise.

Again, I am not saying this means evolution is wrong. But I see a conflict in science and religion.

I don't seem to understand your disconnect. If you believe that G-d created the universe with certain laws that govern it - and Judaism certainly asserts that, what is wrong with saying that He used those rules to make the universe. This is exactly one of Rambam's main points.

As to man being separate than the animals, of course we are different than the animals as far as the religion goes. This is however, a spiritual argument. Are you aware that Cabala talks about races that came before Adam?

The difference was a human soul. Now granted, we are talking about matters of pure faith here, however, the matters being referred to are not in contradiction to evolution, but rather in terms of Neshama. As to dust and Ruach, which are referred to in the making of Adam Harishon, you need to realize that if there were ever verses that have deeper meanings that go way beyond the pshat it would be these.

170 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:40:06pm

re: #167 Daria Emmons

I think you are very behind the curve on this issue.

171 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:41:12pm

re: #156 Daria Emmons

Again, I am not saying this means evolution is wrong. But I see a conflict in science and religion.

Please read "Rocks of Ages," by the late and very lamented Stephen Jay Gould.

I am extremely vocal and spoke to a plethora of people on the subject.

Stopping a rabbi on the street and asking him this proves nothing. To authenticate the statements you have made here about "mainstream Judaism," you need to (1) define what you mean by that term, and (2) provide some statistical basis for your assertion other than "I asked a lot of people," or (3) quote a recognized scholar on the subject by name. Please give us the name of a recognized scholar of Judaism who maintains that Judaism is incompatible with evolutionary theory.

172 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:41:23pm

re: #165 NY Nana

I'm out on the left coast right now and when I tell people that I hail from Massachusetts, one of the first things they ask is 'What happened to your accent?'

When I'm back east and telling people in Boston that I was born and raised in the Western part of the state, they ask something along the lines of 'out by Worcester?'...

173 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:41:29pm

re: #78 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #75 dentate

Thank you both for your replies to me. (Ludwig, I'm sorry to have been the bearer of the news.)

174 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:41:33pm

re: #160 realwest

Yes, I remember your talking about meeting your sales quotas.
But let me ask you a question or two (if you want to do this by e-mail, that's cool too, my nic's in blue):
a) do y'all get paid on a commission basis or commission plus salary or just salary
b) what would happen if you didn't make your quotas and
c) is there any other kind of work for which you are qualified and for which there may be jobs available?

I'll only answer b right now: I might lose my job. I started out all right this month and I probably will sell enough total phones. But new lines are hard to find and people are cutting back on accessory sales. I'm just worried. I'm trying to collect work references for another position I'm dealing with a headhunter on, but that's slow going. Hopefully I get the first references in this week. I know you have bigger problems, I do thank you for listening to mine.

175 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:42:34pm

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't seem to understand your disconnect. If you believe that G-d created the universe with certain laws that govern it - and Judaism certainly asserts that, what is wrong with saying that He used those rules to make the universe. This is exactly one of Rambam's main points.

As to man being separate than the animals, of course we are different than the animals as far as the religion goes. This is however, a spiritual argument. Are you aware that Cabala talks about races that came before Adam?

The difference was a human soul. Now granted, we are talking about matters of pure faith here, however, the matters being referred to are not in contradiction to evolution, but rather in terms of Neshama. As to dust and Ruach, which are referred to in the making of Adam Harishon, you need to realize that if there were ever verses that have deeper meanings that go way beyond the pshat it would be these.

Like this:

We are stardust, we are golden, · We are billion year old carbon, · And we got to get ourselves back to the garden.

176 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:42:57pm

re: #166 Sharmuta

The Creationists got to you at some point.

Intelligent Design IS NOT a merging of faith and science.

Intelligent Design IS creationism.

You are confusing theistic evolution and ID. They are distinct and separate theories at conflict with each other.

I look at creationism as a literal rendering of the bible, including young earth theory.

I look at ID as encompassing a realistic age of the universe, however, with the belief that God had a hand in creating man. (that man did not come from apes)

The two are not exactly the same, but regardless, ID is NOT SCIENCE. (and I never said it was)

No less than Richard Dawkins believes that faith and science collide with respect to evolution, and I agree with him. I also agree with the rabbis.

Again, I don't sit up at night reading info on how science is taught in public schools (the Middle East is my issue), but I nonetheless see a conflict in religion v. science. I just am comfortably agnostic and don't care that much about it at the moment.

177 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:43:06pm

re: #1 MandyManners

Is he trying to get Jews to join the ID movement?

Yes, and discredit those who won't play.

178 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:43:58pm

re: #168 Salamantis

Pope John Paul II accepted evolution:

[Link: www.newadvent.org...]

So does Pope Benedict:

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

And so do I. I beleive in God and I believe in evolution and while I understand what Daria Emmons is saying, I still see no conflict between the two unless you believe in literal creationism as set forth in Genesis. And that has been scientifically proven to be false.
What point am I missing here, Sal?

179 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:44:01pm

re: #170 Sharmuta

I think you are very behind the curve on this issue.

Quite concur.

180 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:44:09pm

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

... we accept science because we need approval? And what, this nice non-m.o.t.(my edit - S.L.) is going to come and tell us how we should read our own books written in our own language? ... Klinghoffer. You better not turn out to be one of those pet Jews.


My friend, Klinghoffer has recently published several articles at the Aish HaTorah web site. Klinghoffer at Aish Hatorah

His most recent article The Alphabet of Life attempts a religious attack on Darwinism and DNA.

As for being a pet-Jew, it might be due to intelligent design that the words Klinghoffer and kapo both start with a k.

181 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:44:19pm

re: #167 Daria Emmons

At the Vatican conference earlier this year- ID was completely rejected, and not one proponent of ID was invited to participate.

That link you gave me says nothing about ID. It said the Vatican says evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist. That's a real stretch to say that position equals belief in ID.

You speak about intellectual honesty, but you yourself are not showing it.

182 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:45:12pm

re: #32 NelsFree

You know, when I first saw the name, "Rambam", I thought of Rahm Emmanuel. Who else? Show of hands??

Uh, no. But since I heard of the Rambam first...

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:45:45pm

re: #35 Alouette

Some idiot also posted a long rambling screed at my blog claiming the Rambam was a vegetarian.

He might have been, but what's that got to do with anything?

184 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:46:06pm

re: #176 Daria Emmons

You fail to mention theistic evolution. Not everyone of faith who rejects a literal reading is an IDer. To say so or think so is intellectually dishonest on your part.

185 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:46:16pm

re: #175 Salamantis

Like this:

We are stardust, we are golden, · We are billion year old carbon, · And we got to get ourselves back to the garden.

I kinda like that... In the Tradition, the meaning of dust and ruach has a lot more to do with the notion of a union of and bridge between masculine heaven and feminine earth and an awful lot more cabalah to discuss in terms of the nature of Divine essences, but I do like your take on it.

BTW thinking of that, what do you think an up triangle and a down triangle super imposed on each other means?

186 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:46:47pm

re: #174 Dark_Falcon
Ah hey, I've got time for listening to and hopefully helping friends out!
IF you hang in there, and other sales reps don't meet their quotas and get fired, does that open up areas for you to explore in sales or are you geographically limited as to where you can sell them?

187 freetoken  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:47:14pm

re: #153 ShanghaiEd


I believe you're onto something by making that connection, though. I'm guessing that a lot of people are uneasy with the theory of evolution because interpreting it as a hands-off proposition for God would imply that mankind is totally on its/our own today with no hope of a supreme power rushing in to stop us from our self-destructive folly. Make sense?

In other words, Deism vs. Theism.

188 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:47:57pm

re: #176 Daria Emmons

I look at creationism as a literal rendering of the bible, including young earth theory.

I look at ID as encompassing a realistic age of the universe, however, with the belief that God had a hand in creating man. (that man did not come from apes)

The two are not exactly the same, but regardless, ID is NOT SCIENCE. (and I never said it was)

No less than Richard Dawkins believes that faith and science collide with respect to evolution, and I agree with him. I also agree with the rabbis.

Again, I don't sit up at night reading info on how science is taught in public schools (the Middle East is my issue), but I nonetheless see a conflict in religion v. science. I just am comfortably agnostic and don't care that much about it at the moment.

Daria: There was a very important court case a few years ago that proved Intelligent Design is Creationism under another name, no matter how much the folks at the Discovery Institute deny it.

The crucial exhibit was a manuscript of one of the Institute's books, which somebody had gone through with an edit-and-replace function, changing the term creationism to Intelligent Design. I'll be glad to give you a link to this court case, if you're interested.

189 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:48:13pm

re: #176 Daria Emmons

I look at creationism as a literal rendering of the bible, including young earth theory.

I look at ID as encompassing a realistic age of the universe, however, with the belief that God had a hand in creating man. (that man did not come from apes)

The two are not exactly the same, but regardless, ID is NOT SCIENCE. (and I never said it was)

No less than Richard Dawkins believes that faith and science collide with respect to evolution, and I agree with him. I also agree with the rabbis.

Again, I don't sit up at night reading info on how science is taught in public schools (the Middle East is my issue), but I nonetheless see a conflict in religion v. science. I just am comfortably agnostic and don't care that much about it at the moment.

Many people, including myself, draw distinctions between whether or not it is rational to believe that a deity could exist and whether or not any particular religious faith is empirically, factually true in all relevant particulars (including whether or not the deity in question possesses, or logically CAN simultaneously possess, all the characteristics religiously attributed to it).

Try reading The Evolution Of God, by Robert Wright.

190 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:48:14pm

re: #181 Sharmuta

At the Vatican conference earlier this year- ID was completely rejected, and not one proponent of ID was invited to participate.

That link you gave me says nothing about ID. It said the Vatican says evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist. That's a real stretch to say that position equals belief in ID.

You speak about intellectual honesty, but you yourself are not showing it.

I just posted above that I stand corrected. I guess it was not clear in what I wrote.

When I linked to Times Online, it was clear ID also was rejected.

Anyway, I don't care what the pope says, as I am not Catholic, and he is but one man. I believe it is a very big stretch to say that, upon reading the bible, God did not create man uniquely, apart from animals. The whole story of Adam and Eve was meant to convey mankind's uniqueness.

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:48:31pm

re: #55 Alouette

Rambam = Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon = Maimonides

Where does "Maimonides" come from? Sounds Greek. I doubt Rav Moshe ever called himself that.

It's what Christian scholars called him. Similarly, the Ramban is Nachmanides, and K'ung-Tzu is Confucius. Latinizing names of scholars considered important enough to get a mention in Christian writings.

192 J.D.  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:48:33pm

re: #175 Salamantis

We are stardust, we are golden, · We are billion year old carbon, · And we got to get ourselves back to the garden.


Where have I heard that before?
/

Hi {realwest}! You're up late. Me, too!
It's good to see you!

193 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:48:37pm

re: #185 LudwigVanQuixote

BTW thinking of that, what do you think an up triangle and a down triangle super imposed on each other means?

It's clearly meant to represent the North Pole, the South Pole, and the two Tropics, ie a map of the world--secret symbol of the Zionist plot to rule it all...oh, I see what you are getting at. Never mind.

;-)

194 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:48:39pm

I'm a person of Faith.

I believe God created the universe.

I believe it is science that explains how God created.

195 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:48:42pm

re: #187 freetoken

In other words, Deism vs. Theism.

Yes! Exactly.

196 MrPaulRevere  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:48:50pm

re: #176 Daria Emmons

"I just am comfortably agnostic and don't care that much about it at the moment." You sure have a lot to say about an issue you don't care about.

197 NY Nana  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:49:52pm

re: #156 Daria Emmons

Are you Jewish?

198 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:50:20pm

re: #185 LudwigVanQuixote
Um, I like Sal's take on it too, but those are part of the lyrics to a song.
Just saying...

199 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:50:26pm

re: #85 Alouette

The Challenge of Creation by Nathan Slifkin uses the writings of Maimonides and other sages to defend the teaching of evolution as completely compatible with Jewish belief.

I thought Slifkin rejected evolution. If I misunderstood that part, then I've even more eager to read The Challenge of Creation.

200 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:50:43pm

re: #196 MrPaulRevere

"I just am comfortably agnostic and don't care that much about it at the moment." You sure have a lot to say about an issue you don't care about.

I have never commented on an ID thread before, but I thought I would throw in a comment tonight.

Once I start talking I can barely shut up...but I am going to bed now, so good night!

201 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:51:40pm

re: #192 J.D.
Hey {J.D.} yup, I'm up late cause I can't sleep! What's your excuse?!

202 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:51:41pm

re: #103 Daria Emmons

In short, I do not believe the Klinghoffer article shameless. Rather, he simply expounds the mainstream religious perspective.

This is an extremely touchy matter, as his article goes to the heart of the debate of intelligence design, and its interaction with mainstream religious doctrine.

The 'mainstream religious perspective'? Whose? Not Moshe ben Maimon's.

203 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:51:52pm

re: #190 Daria Emmons

I believe it is a very big stretch to say that, upon reading the bible, God did not create man uniquely, apart from animals. The whole story of Adam and Eve was meant to convey mankind's uniqueness.

And Genesis wasn't written by God, but by very limited men trying to explain something beyond their comprehension. It's not a science book.

204 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:52:59pm

re: #180 Stuart Leviton

My friend, Klinghoffer has recently published several articles at the Aish HaTorah web site. Klinghoffer at Aish Hatorah

His most recent article The Alphabet of Life attempts a religious attack on Darwinism and DNA.

As for being a pet-Jew, it might be due to intelligent design that the words Klinghoffer and kapo both start with a k.

Ohhh dear G-d I finally put it together.

Let's just say that I am someone who generally loves Aish, studied there in Jerusalem, and even studied with Rabbi Weinberg zt"l.

Let's also say that there are those at Aish who understand the physics and the science and then there are those like this fellow. Let's also say that I am somewhat well know there for arguing with Schroeder, who I think went way off the derech.

205 subsailor68  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:54:53pm

Sigh, I dreamed I passed on, and went to Heaven. When I arrived, St. Peter asked, "How did you spend your days on Earth?" I said, "I believed deeply that there was an argument between evolution and creationism that had to be resolved, and so I learned all I could about each and argued with passion and conviction."

And St. Peter said, "Ah."

And I said, "Don't you want to know on which side I stood, and with what passion I argued?"

And St. Peter said, "No. God wanted me to ask you what you did to help make your world, not his, a better place."

And I stood mute, because - for that - I had no answer.

206 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:55:46pm

re: #185 LudwigVanQuixote

I kinda like that... In the Tradition, the meaning of dust and ruach has a lot more to do with the notion of a union of and bridge between masculine heaven and feminine earth and an awful lot more cabalah to discuss in terms of the nature of Divine essences, but I do like your take on it.

BTW thinking of that, what do you think an up triangle and a down triangle super imposed on each other means?

According to (supposedly) Hermes Trismigestus, it is a graphic rendering of the maxim 'as above, so below' (considering that the triangles are identical in size and shape, but point in opposite directions).

The question arises, however, as to whether the above imposed the below, or whether the below evolved the above - that is, whether a deity created humans in its own image, or whether humans have historically created their deities in their own image (psychologically when not physically), with emotions, intellections, wills and desires.

The second is of course true, but the point is that it doesn't have to be an either/or; it can be a both/and. And then peerhaps it is true that there is a vast and massive difference between the nature of God and the human understanding of the nature of such a being.

207 J.D.  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:55:51pm

re: #201 realwest

Hey {J.D.} yup, I'm up late cause I can't sleep! What's your excuse?!

Ummm...

Catching up on some stuff and don't want to give it up yet... this morning.

It could be a looong day!

208 Daria Emmons  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:56:02pm

re: #203 Sharmuta

And Genesis wasn't written by God, but by very limited men trying to explain something beyond their comprehension. It's not a science book.

I generally agree with this sentiment, but that is NOT the belief of the people I have spoken to.

To summarize: I believe Reform/Conservative Jews are mostly anti-Intelligent Design. I believe Modern Orthodox Jews are mostly ID believers. I believe ultra-Orthodox Jews are mostly creationists. And to say God did not write Genesis per se contradicts the years of study I engaged in.

Again, I am not saying this means ID is *correct* - I am saying this is what caused my initial doubt in religion!

NOW I am going to bed, so good night!

This will be the last you will hear of me on an ID subject for a while!

Have fun!!!

209 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:57:33pm

re: #190 Daria Emmons

I just posted above that I stand corrected. I guess it was not clear in what I wrote.

When I linked to Times Online, it was clear ID also was rejected.

Anyway, I don't care what the pope says, as I am not Catholic, and he is but one man. I believe it is a very big stretch to say that, upon reading the bible, God did not create man uniquely, apart from animals. The whole story of Adam and Eve was meant to convey mankind's uniqueness.

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

excerpt:

“If Charles Darwin reappeared today, he might be surprised to learn that humans are descended from viruses as well as from apes,” Weiss wrote.

Darwin’s surprise almost certainly would be mixed with delight: when he suggested, in “The Descent of Man” (1871), that humans and apes shared a common ancestor, it was a revolutionary idea, and it remains one today. Yet nothing provides more convincing evidence for the “theory” of evolution than the viruses contained within our DNA. Until recently, the earliest available information about the history and the course of human diseases, like smallpox and typhus, came from mummies no more than four thousand years old. Evolution cannot be measured in a time span that short. Endogenous retroviruses provide a trail of molecular bread crumbs leading millions of years into the past.

Darwin’s theory makes sense, though, only if humans share most of those viral fragments with relatives like chimpanzees and monkeys. And we do, in thousands of places throughout our genome. If that were a coincidence, humans and chimpanzees would have had to endure an incalculable number of identical viral infections in the course of millions of years, and then, somehow, those infections would have had to end up in exactly the same place within each genome. The rungs of the ladder of human DNA consist of three billion pairs of nucleotides spread across forty-six chromosomes. The sequences of those nucleotides determine how each person differs from another, and from all other living things. The only way that humans, in thousands of seemingly random locations, could possess the exact retroviral DNA found in another species is by inheriting it from a common ancestor.

Molecular biology has made precise knowledge about the nature of that inheritance possible. With extensive databases of genetic sequences, reconstructing ancestral genomes has become common, and retroviruses have been found in the genome of every vertebrate species that has been studied. Anthropologists and biologists have used them to investigate not only the lineage of primates but the relationships among animals—dogs, jackals, wolves, and foxes, for example—and also to test whether similar organisms may in fact be unrelated.

210 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:57:34pm

Daria- I believe we've posted to each other on another issue in the past, and you struck me as a bright, intelligent person. I think it's great you've sent time studying these aspects of faith, but I think you've missed a key component- accepting science and faith is not intelligent design. I hope you'll take the time to look deeper into theistic evolution.

211 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:58:08pm

re: #203 Sharmuta

And Genesis wasn't written by God, but by very limited men trying to explain something beyond their comprehension. It's not a science book.

Sharm: I was about to leap in and argue something similar, before I saw Daria's note that she's going to bed. Hope she comments again, so we can continue this.

I thought it interesting that she refers to "the story" of Adam and Eve, yet implies that the rest of Genesis is literal fact, i.e. science. Seems contradictory, to me. I'd like to know more about where she stands on biblical literalism...which, I might point out, even George Bush no longer accepts. :)

212 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:58:54pm

re: #208 Daria Emmons

Seriously- you've conflated ID with other matters. You need to divorce them or the next ID thread you join will have the same sorts of reactions you've gotten on this one.

213 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:59:22pm

re: #203 Sharmuta

And Genesis wasn't written by God, but by very limited men trying to explain something beyond their comprehension. It's not a science book.

If we had received Genesis as a complete chemical and physical explanation of the creation of the universe, we would have eaten it, or built a shrine for it, but we sure wouldn't have kept it alive. Young cultures needs stories. Old cultures keep telling them, and finding more meaning in them and behind them.

My theory, which I know I've posted here before is that the difference between Genesis and modern science is the difference between telling a child that when a Mommy and a Daddy want to have a baby the baby grows in Mommy's tummy, and an adult's understanding of sex, love, marriage, family, genetics, culture, heritage...it's not a lie you tell the little one, it's what she or he can understand at first.

214 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 9:59:52pm

re: #208 Daria Emmons

I generally agree with this sentiment, but that is NOT the belief of the people I have spoken to.

To summarize: I believe Reform/Conservative Jews are mostly anti-Intelligent Design. I believe Modern Orthodox Jews are mostly ID believers. I believe ultra-Orthodox Jews are mostly creationists. And to say God did not write Genesis per se contradicts the years of study I engaged in.

Again, I am not saying this means ID is *correct* - I am saying this is what caused my initial doubt in religion!

NOW I am going to bed, so good night!

This will be the last you will hear of me on an ID subject for a while!

Have fun!!!

Daria: Hope you'll comment again soon. If you haven't seen my post #188 to you, please check it out. Good night.

215 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:01:34pm

re: #207 J.D.

Ummm...

Catching up on some stuff and don't want to give it up yet... this morning.

It could be a looong day!


LOL! Only if the stuff you're catching up on is important for you to catch up on!

216 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:02:26pm

re: #205 subsailor68
Hi sub - that was nice. Very nice.

217 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:02:36pm

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

...it's not a lie you tell the little one, it's what she or he can understand at first.

Exactly! Someone here once argued for Creationism because Jesus didn't correct Genesis. I asked if the people of Jesus' time would have been any more ready to hear about evolution, DNA, and the Big Bang than the people of Moses' time. Of course they weren't. It doesn't mean Moses and Jesus were liars, but that man's ability to understand was still limited.

218 HelloDare  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:03:39pm

God just spoke to me. He said Klinghoffer is full of shit.

Well, that settles it for me.

219 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:05:13pm

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

If we had received Genesis as a complete chemical and physical explanation of the creation of the universe, we would have eaten it, or built a shrine for it, but we sure wouldn't have kept it alive. Young cultures needs stories. Old cultures keep telling them, and finding more meaning in them and behind them.

My theory, which I know I've posted here before is that the difference between Genesis and modern science is the difference between telling a child that when a Mommy and a Daddy want to have a baby the baby grows in Mommy's tummy, and an adult's understanding of sex, love, marriage, family, genetics, culture, heritage...it's not a lie you tell the little one, it's what she or he can understand at first.

SFZ, that is one of the most succinct and accurate statements I have ever read. What would the Hebrews of 3000 years ago have made of a text describing astrophysics and evolutionary theory? The Torah was designed (pardon that word) to unfold over time and to be meaningful to every generation through interpretation, and has succeeded amazingly well in that respect.

220 freetoken  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:06:09pm

re: #195 ShanghaiEd

Yes! Exactly.

IMO, Deism is a greater threat to Theists than the secular humanist (scientist or not.)

I've been around the block (more than once) on the evolution/creation issues... I remember years ago when in college I would have discussion with a couple of the creationists on my dorm floor, and it would become evident rather quickly that they would shut out any scientific reasoning past a certain point.

Generally speaking, I've found it of no use to try and discuss science with people who are dead set against some scientific conclusion. People believe what they need to believe, to deal with their personal situation at any given point in their life.

221 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:06:59pm

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

If we had received Genesis as a complete chemical and physical explanation of the creation of the universe, we would have eaten it, or built a shrine for it, but we sure wouldn't have kept it alive. Young cultures needs stories. Old cultures keep telling them, and finding more meaning in them and behind them.

My theory, which I know I've posted here before is that the difference between Genesis and modern science is the difference between telling a child that when a Mommy and a Daddy want to have a baby the baby grows in Mommy's tummy, and an adult's understanding of sex, love, marriage, family, genetics, culture, heritage...it's not a lie you tell the little one, it's what she or he can understand at first.

By golly, I think you nailed it. Very well said.

222 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:07:44pm

re: #186 realwest

Ah hey, I've got time for listening to and hopefully helping friends out!
IF you hang in there, and other sales reps don't meet their quotas and get fired, does that open up areas for you to explore in sales or are you geographically limited as to where you can sell them?

I can't get promoted till the end of the year due to quota-related write-up. The only good news for me is that I'm not the first person on the chopping block, nor the second. That might buy me some time, but I am going to look for other work. What I really need right now is some stress relief. Do you have any moderately-priced and effective ideas for that? I'll be more effective if I can relax a bit.

223 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:08:12pm

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

If we had received Genesis as a complete chemical and physical explanation of the creation of the universe, we would have eaten it, or built a shrine for it, but we sure wouldn't have kept it alive. Young cultures needs stories. Old cultures keep telling them, and finding more meaning in them and behind them.

My theory, which I know I've posted here before is that the difference between Genesis and modern science is the difference between telling a child that when a Mommy and a Daddy want to have a baby the baby grows in Mommy's tummy, and an adult's understanding of sex, love, marriage, family, genetics, culture, heritage...it's not a lie you tell the little one, it's what she or he can understand at first.

I love that post.

224 jvic  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:08:25pm

re: #177 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, and discredit those who won't play.

Coming back to:

This is how many Jewish people, hungry for social and intellectual approval, really think. And in their own respective context, so do many Christians.

IMHGO there is an implication that they are--what's the expression?--'self-hating Jews'. IMHGO implying it is seriously nastier than saying it outright.

225 Desert Dog  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:10:05pm

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

If we had received Genesis as a complete chemical and physical explanation of the creation of the universe, we would have eaten it, or built a shrine for it, but we sure wouldn't have kept it alive. Young cultures needs stories. Old cultures keep telling them, and finding more meaning in them and behind them.

My theory, which I know I've posted here before is that the difference between Genesis and modern science is the difference between telling a child that when a Mommy and a Daddy want to have a baby the baby grows in Mommy's tummy, and an adult's understanding of sex, love, marriage, family, genetics, culture, heritage...it's not a lie you tell the little one, it's what she or he can understand at first.

But what about Santa Claus? Can we still have Santa??

Great post, btw

226 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:10:15pm

re: #193 dentate

It's clearly meant to represent the North Pole, the South Pole, and the two Tropics, ie a map of the world--secret symbol of the Zionist plot to rule it all...oh, I see what you are getting at. Never mind.

;-)

If you keep giving out our secrets we will have to reeducate you!

Thank you,
Zionist Occupied Remulak
///

227 subsailor68  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:10:18pm

re: #216 realwest

Hi sub - that was nice. Very nice.

Hi RW! It's truly great to see you here tonight! You, my friend, and I - we're getting older - and when you and I stand there before St. Peter - well, okay, we may have to explain the high fives!

:-)

228 freetoken  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:10:23pm

Speaking of people believing whatever they need to...

I see HA floated a couple of 'nirther threads today, by AP. And, unsurprisingly, the 'nirthers wax strongly over there. AP is likely cringing.

229 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:11:17pm

re: #220 freetoken

People believe what they need to believe, to deal with their personal situation at any given point in their life.

Amen! Preach it, brother! :)

I know I've quoted this before, but whenever I think of people resisting a life without Theism, I remember a line from a Wallace Stevens poem:

How cold the vacancy when the phantoms are gone,
And the shaken realist first sees reality.

230 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:11:56pm

...my circumcision is definitely not intelligent design...

/...wonder what that statement will do to this thread?...?...

231 HelloDare  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:12:34pm

re: #225 Desert Dog

But what about Santa Claus? Can we still have Santa??

Yeah, but the Tooth Fairy has got to go.

232 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:13:51pm

re: #228 freetoken

Speaking of people believing whatever they need to...

I see HA floated a couple of 'nirther threads today, by AP. And, unsurprisingly, the 'nirthers wax strongly over there. AP is likely cringing.

Who is HA? Just asking.

233 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:14:28pm

re: #222 Dark_Falcon
Why yes, yes I do.
There are lots of ways to relieve stress. Most of them won't help you out doing sales work however.
The BEST stress reliever is exercise. Regular exercise.
Do you exercise reguarly and consistently? If so and you are still stressed to the max, INCREASE the amount and frequency of the exercise. But first check with a doctor and make sure you won't be doing yourself any harm if you do exercise!
I really would appreciate it if you would e-mail me my friend.
Stress is something I truly do understand.

234 jvic  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:14:57pm

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

My theory, which I know I've posted here before is that the difference between Genesis and modern science is the difference between telling a child that when a Mommy and a Daddy want to have a baby the baby grows in Mommy's tummy, and an adult's understanding of sex, love, marriage, family, genetics, culture, heritage...it's not a lie you tell the little one, it's what she or he can understand at first.

"When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things." I Cor. xiii. 11.

235 itellu3times  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:15:49pm

Gee what a busy day, I haven't had time to LGF, meanwhile Jupiter gets an ouchy, and others are looking for truth in science from 800 years ago and misreading even that.

According to something or other, Maimonides originated the "herring" joke, so he can't be all bad.
/

236 Desert Dog  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:16:19pm

re: #234 jvic

"When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things." I Cor. xiii. 11.

"Why? Because I say so, that's why" - Desert Dog's Dad, circa 1970

237 HelloDare  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:16:23pm

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

Who is HA? Just asking.

Hot Air.

238 dentate  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:16:58pm

re: #220 freetoken

People believe what they need to believe, to deal with their personal situation at any given point in their life.

That, and your avatar, remind me of the Global Warming thing. Have any of those folks looked at the coastline of Southeast Asia over the last 18,000 years? Which is the "normal" coastline, and what is the Earth's "normal" temperature, and why do we think that controlling carbon emissions is going to preserve things the way they are at this moment in time? There too, the need to push an agenda blocks rational thought.

239 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:17:20pm

re: #227 subsailor68
Oh, the high fives will be self explanatory to him. The surprised gasps may take a little explaining. But don't worry, I'm a lawyer and I can handle it!
:)

240 HelloDare  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:18:08pm

Palate Cleanser

Keep scrolling.

241 subsailor68  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:19:46pm

re: #239 realwest

Oh, the high fives will be self explanatory to him. The surprised gasps may take a little explaining. But don't worry, I'm a lawyer and I can handle it!
:)

Phew!! The gasps will all be from folks amazed I made it...and it'll be great to have a terrific lawyer there with me! Cause..well, you know...

:-)

242 jvic  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:23:05pm

re: #236 Desert Dog

"Why? Because I say so, that's why" - Desert Dog's Dad, circa 1970

And malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

--A.E. Housman, A Shropshire Lad, 1896

243 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:24:18pm

re: #144 Daria EmmonsEven the most basic rituals in these religions bely this. Why would there be prayer in these faiths, if there was not an idea that there was omnipotent force which answers prayer and interferes in our daily lives?

FYI:

The Hebrew word for prayer is tefilah. It is derived from the root Pe-Lamed-Lamed and the word l'hitpalel, meaning to judge oneself. This surprising word origin provides insight into the purpose of Jewish prayer. The most important part of any Jewish prayer, whether it be a prayer of petition, of thanksgiving, of praise of G-d, or of confession, is the introspection it provides, the moment that we spend looking inside ourselves, seeing our role in the universe and our relationship to G-d.


For more see Torah 101 article on Jewish prayer

244 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:24:55pm

re: #234 jvic

"When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things." I Cor. xiii. 11.

Yes! I always liked the next verse, too:

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Is that heavy, or what? :)

245 freetoken  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:25:43pm

re: #238 dentate

Have any of those folks looked at the coastline of Southeast Asia over the last 18,000 years?

"those folks"?

And, the point being...?

246 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:26:27pm

re: #233 realwest

Why yes, yes I do.
There are lots of ways to relieve stress. Most of them won't help you out doing sales work however.
The BEST stress reliever is exercise. Regular exercise.
Do you exercise reguarly and consistently? If so and you are still stressed to the max, INCREASE the amount and frequency of the exercise. But first check with a doctor and make sure you won't be doing yourself any harm if you do exercise!
I really would appreciate it if you would e-mail me my friend.
Stress is something I truly do understand.

I'll email you in the morning. Thank you in advance.

247 Desert Dog  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:26:30pm

Do not consider it proof just because it is written in books, for a liar who will deceive with his tongue will not hesitate to do the same with his pen.
-Maimonides

Further, there are things of which the mind understands one part, but remains ignorant of the other; and when man is able to comprehend certain things, it does not follow that he must be able to comprehend everything.
-Maimonides

248 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:27:32pm

Well y'all its been real. But I gotta get some sleep now.
Dark_Falcon - my nic is in blue if you'd like to chat in total confidence.
Hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

249 Desert Dog  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:29:20pm

re: #242 jvic

And malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.

--A.E. Housman, A Shropshire Lad, 1896

Heavy stuff...let me guess...English Major? If so, you would like Desert Dog's Dad, he taught English for 30 years.

250 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:30:31pm

re: #246 Dark_Falcon
Whoops, sorry I missed that one! Please do e-mail me in the morning my friend - I WILL reply with some hopeful words, but at the very least, two ears with which to hear you.
And I will reply tomorrow, too.

251 Desert Dog  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:31:55pm

Good night all...morning seems to start sooner than I would like lately.

252 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:33:07pm

re: #238 dentate

That, and your avatar, remind me of the Global Warming thing. Have any of those folks looked at the coastline of Southeast Asia over the last 18,000 years? Which is the "normal" coastline, and what is the Earth's "normal" temperature, and why do we think that controlling carbon emissions is going to preserve things the way they are at this moment in time? There too, the need to push an agenda blocks rational thought.

dentate: I don't know anybody who argues that controlling carbon emissions is going to "preserve things the way they are at this moment in time." Best, best, best case scenario, controlling those emissions could partly mitigate the ongoing damage to our way of life.

As to the rest of our question, there are several scientific books on just that subject. I've read a couple of them, and as I can't disprove their statistics or their reasoning, I accept their conclusions.

253 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:36:49pm

re: #245 freetoken

"those folks"?

And, the point being...?

Well, if my county is flooded, I'll just move somewhere else. No big deal. Land is flooded all the time. People move all the time. What's one more?

And if my great-grandchildren's county is flooded, well...I'll be dead then, right? So what's it to me? The little boogers can forage for themselves; makes 'em stronger, right? Right?

/

254 jvic  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:37:47pm

re: #249 Desert Dog

Heavy stuff

In that case, you might like the whole thing.

...let me guess...English Major? If so, you would like Desert Dog's Dad, he taught English for 30 years.

It's true I tested better for verbal attitude (that too!) aptitude than for math aptitude, but the latter is what attracted me and I pursued.

255 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:38:43pm

I'm going to knock off for the night. Sleep well, all.

256 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:41:19pm

What I find interesting about this debate is that the very mechanism by which we're free to have this conversation is the very mechanism the ID proponents would like to undermine- the Constitution. The Enlightenment is what made our system of government possible, and it's the Enlightenment the IDers would like to reverse.

It makes me wonder if they really value their freedoms if they could push an agenda that would so undermine their ability to hold those beliefs.

257 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:47:14pm

re: #256 Sharmuta

It makes me wonder if they really value their freedoms if they could push an agenda that would so undermine their ability to hold those beliefs.

They hope to come out on the top of the heap, running the show. It's not the freedom to hold their own beliefs that concerns them, it's the freedom for others to hold beliefs that differ from theirs. This is how they disregard the Constitution and the values that are at the very foundation of our country.

258 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:48:01pm

re: #256 Sharmuta

What I find interesting about this debate is that the very mechanism by which we're free to have this conversation is the very mechanism the ID proponents would like to undermine- the Constitution. The Enlightenment is what made our system of government possible, and it's the Enlightenment the IDers would like to reverse.

It makes me wonder if they really value their freedoms if they could push an agenda that would so undermine their ability to hold those beliefs.

Well, I'd say they value their freedoms, a lot. It's other people's freedoms they're not so concerned about.

I'm reminded of all the people I know who preached in recent years about the necessity for a "strong unitary executive" and why the president required ever-greater powers in our perilous times...never thinking that someday they might have a president whose beliefs were different than theirs.

Grrr. Don't get me started... :)

259 mrshankly01  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:48:04pm

re: #252 ShanghaiEd

i agree that it is beyond my experience to comment on the validity of the global warming issue. i am unwilling, though, to discount the naysayers. Thus I stand undecided about global warming because there are many intelligent on climate people that believe it and there are many that don't. and, because of this, I do not think there is enough evidence to warrant weighing down our current financial system in the middle of a major recession.

260 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:53:15pm

re: #258 ShanghaiEd

Line item veto. I know people who were screaming unconstitutional bloody murder when Clinton temporarily had that power, then preformed a complete 180 on the issue when Bush was in office.

Anecdotal, but still true.

261 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:54:36pm

re: #204 LudwigVanQuixote
I too love Aish. The renowned Meir Schuster had tried to get me to study at Aish back in 1975. Foolishly, I declined the offer. I am glad you studied there.

I was offended by Klinghoffer's publishing at Aish. I felt he was attempting to use Aish for his political agenda rather than to contribute something to my education about Torah. And so I wrote Aish. I would like to encourage others to read Klinghoffer's Aish articles and if they feel strongly - one way or another - to write Aish about their view.

262 Flavia  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:55:28pm

I don't think this Klinghoffer is Jewish, especially when I read his posts about Judaism. He sounds like he's trying too hard. I could be wrong, and it could be because his beliefs are so whacked; I could even just be too paranoid. But I get a weird feeling from him.

263 mrshankly01  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:55:50pm

re: #260 Slumbering Behemoth

republicans gave the president the line item veto. it was the court that took it away.

264 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:57:11pm

re: #259 mrshankly01

i agree that it is beyond my experience to comment on the validity of the global warming issue. i am unwilling, though, to discount the naysayers. Thus I stand undecided about global warming because there are many intelligent on climate people that believe it and there are many that don't. and, because of this, I do not think there is enough evidence to warrant weighing down our current financial system in the middle of a major recession.

Well, except there's a thing called "preponderance of the evidence" that is the way we live our daily lives. And the evidence among scientists unfunded by corporate interests is vastly on the side of GW. If they happen to be right, and a large part of our population is underwater, our financial system will be the least of our worries.

There are many, many, many other areas of our lives in which we would rightly be called unwise if we stayed "undecided" about evidence, and endangered ourselves and our children, because of our ideological beliefs. For decades, intelligent people were "on the fence" about whether smoking caused cancer. Why do you think they felt that way? How do they look now?

I choose to go with preponderance of the evidence. But, that's just me.

265 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 10:57:57pm

re: #257 Slumbering Behemoth

They hope to come out on the top of the heap, running the show. It's not the freedom to hold their own beliefs that concerns them, it's the freedom for others to hold beliefs that differ from theirs. This is how they disregard the Constitution and the values that are at the very foundation of our country.

Freedom means other people get to make decisions you don't like.

I think the most important aspect to come out of the Enlightenment was Freedom of Conscience. That man was free to follow his own conscience on matters of faith and politics was an enormous advance for Western Civilization, and one of the reasons I oppose fundamentalist islam.

But I think something happened between the euro-fascists and the intelligent design movement. That was when I noticed not everyone was opposed to the islamists for the same reasons I was. Some people have no problem infringing upon our freedom of conscience, so long as they approve. And some people have no problem stopping a form of religious fundamentalism but not others, simply because they agree with one over the other- not because they have a principled stance opposing all infringement on freedom of conscience. I see this same issue playing out in the GOP as a whole at this time. Charlatans would like us to think they're on our side, but in reality, we're useful idiots if we don't see them for what they are.

266 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:00:17pm

re: #264 ShanghaiEd

Bull fucking shit...if the situation is as dire as the AGW crows is making it out to be, how come Al Gore isn't showing up to every speaking engagement in a horse-drawn cart instead of flying around in a learjet. How come all these 'green' initiatives involve throwing alot of money at some unregulated entity to offset one's carbon footprint?

267 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:01:53pm

re: #263 mrshankly01

republicans gave the president the line item veto. it was the court that took it away.

Do you mean Clinton or Bush?

268 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:04:23pm

re: #260 Slumbering Behemoth

Line item veto. I know people who were screaming unconstitutional bloody murder when Clinton temporarily had that power, then preformed a complete 180 on the issue when Bush was in office.

Anecdotal, but still true.

Absolutely. That extends to any number of areas.

"Hey, folks, President Clinton is going to data-mine all your phone and computer connections. But it's for your own safety, and you know he won't abuse the information. Okay?"

What do you think the response would have been to that initiative? :)

269 freetoken  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:04:49pm

re: #265 Sharmuta

Freedom means other people get to make decisions you don't like.

This seems to be forgotten when convenient.

I think the most important aspect to come out of the Enlightenment was Freedom of Conscience. That man was free to follow his own conscience on matters of faith and politics was an enormous advance for Western Civilization, and one of the reasons I oppose fundamentalist islam.

One thing I wonder ... how ancient is the idea of "man [is] free to follow his own conscience on matters of faith and politics" ?

Non-western societies all had their own forms of religion... were people forced to believe everything the group believed?

Politics of course ends in "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword", and again I wonder if our 21st century sensibilities could handle any society of, say, the 12th century?

270 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:05:31pm

re: #265 Sharmuta

Freedom means other people get to make decisions you don't like.

This should be a rotating title. And a bumper sticker. And a t-shirt. And a mother-fucking national motto.

It makes clearer what I think our nation's first currency motto tried to convey with "Mind Your Business".

271 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:09:00pm

re: #266 Fenway_Nation

Bull fucking shit...if the situation is as dire as the AGW crows is making it out to be, how come Al Gore isn't showing up to every speaking engagement in a horse-drawn cart instead of flying around in a learjet. How come all these 'green' initiatives involve throwing alot of money at some unregulated entity to offset one's carbon footprint?

Well, for starters, your second statement is just not true. "All" the initiatives are not about carbon footprints, not even most of them. The carbon footprint idea is easily lampooned, but it's a small fraction of the whole picture. Have you read about the whole picture?

As for how come Al's not driving a horse and buggy? Fenway, you know that's a logical fallacy and not a serious argument. If you were doing something you felt was important to the future of the country, you wouldn't be stupid enough to ride a horse to your appointments just to cut carbon emissions by a millionth of a percent. That would be certifiably insane, and I think you know that.

272 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:09:22pm

re: #268 ShanghaiEd

At the time of his administration, I would have raised a stink about that myself. But his was a pre 9/11 admin, and I knew little to nothing about islamist terrorist networks, in this country and others, at that time.

273 subsailor68  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:09:52pm

Good grief! I've seen the articles/papers on AGW and the opposition to that theory. I don't know the answer. It appears, however, that no one else does either. The earth is warming - oops, no wait, the earth is cooling. Well, the cooling is a result of warming. How can anyone say cooling is a result of warming? That's crazy! No, it's not. We need to control emissions, and convince the rest of the world to do the same!! What? India's just told us - via our Secretary of State - to take a hike?

It's all so silly. There is only one thing - at this point - I know: when I hear anyone buoy his - or her - position by saying "it's clear - a consensus of scientists agree..."

I know someone is - as my old Navy SEAL friend used to say - trying to blow smoke up a dead dog's butt.

Science is not an area where we go with an approach because more people raised their hands than did not.

274 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:12:56pm

re: #265 Sharmuta
Hey Shar - just can't sleep now.
You said "Freedom means other people get to make decisions you don't like."

Which would be fine and accurate unless of course the decisions made violate the Constitution, right?

275 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:14:45pm

re: #271 ShanghaiEd

As for how come Al's not driving a horse and buggy? Fenway, you know that's a logical fallacy and not a serious argument. If you were doing something you felt was important to the future of the country, you wouldn't be stupid enough to ride a horse to your appointments just to cut carbon emissions by a millionth of a percent. That would be certifiably insane, and I think you know that.

B...b...but what happened to 'every little bit helps'? Guess as long as it isn't Al Gore or any of these Hollywood douchebags who are doing something 'important to the future of the country', they get an exemption from the sacrifices the rest of us would have to make.

Oh...and what I feel (what is it with progressives and that word?) is important to the future of this country is TRANSPORTATION AND UTILITIES! I don't see how massacring small businesses with punitive carbon taxes or increased enegry and transportation costs helps matters...

276 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:14:54pm

re: #273 subsailor68

Science is not an area where we go with an approach because more people raised their hands than did not.

Hi, sub! Well, what if more scientists raised their hands than not? What if the vast majority of them did?

That's the standard in every other area of our lives where our health and safety is concerned. Why should global warming be the one area where people with no expertise in a given field get veto rights, and we demand 100% consensus before we take any action?

277 mrshankly01  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:15:12pm

re: #264 ShanghaiEd

i don't agree that there is a "preponderance of the evidence". I agree that there is a consensus (if you take the United Nations and Al Gore's word), but I can give you some great michael crichton links to show you that consensus is a bunk measure of scientific worth. Also, how do you determine that there is a "preponderance of the evidence." Please do not use the United Nations panel as we have seen many times on this website that it is an organization determined to bring down industrialized first world nations. Also, you say that Scientists that are unfunded by corporate interests are the only scientists worth listening to. are these the same scientists that are funded by government interests actively looking for proof of global warming and knowing if they don't find it they will loose their funding. Also, do you claim that the biggest climate change champion of them all, Al Gore, is untainted by corporate influence.

I object to you pointing the finger at people who do not believing in Gl0obal Warming as being profiteers and dishonorable. That is a straw man argument. Counter them with facts and analysis and not populist crap such as they are "bought by the MAN"

278 mrshankly01  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:16:22pm

re: #267 Slumbering Behemoth

the republicans gave president clinton the line item veto. it was part of the contract with america in order to reduce earmark. the first year the republicans were in control of congress, 1995, they actually did reduce the number of earmarks, then it started increasing again.

279 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:18:41pm

re: #273 subsailor68
Hey sub! "Science is not an area where we go with an approach because more people raised their hands than did not." Is a great and true line, but could perhaps be refined to read "Science is not an area where we go with an approach because more qualfied scientists raised their hands than did not."

280 mrshankly01  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:20:04pm

re: #271 ShanghaiEd

"a logical fallacy" such as claiming that all global warming deniers are bought out by the man.

281 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:21:41pm

re: #269 freetoken

One thing I wonder ... how ancient is the idea of "man [is] free to follow his own conscience on matters of faith and politics" ?

When we consider evolution and the social aspects of closest relatives, it's easy to see where our patriarchal and authoritarian natures derived. It took a considerable amount of time for the concept of democracies to evolve intellectually and socially. Quite a bit of evolving from Ida to the Greeks not just physically but mentally, socially, psychologically, etc.

It's interesting that both religion and Enlightenment principles work against man's nature to achieve something better, but have very different conclusions. Fundamentalist religion is threatened by the Enlightenment because it gives individuals the freedom to walk away from religion altogether.

282 subsailor68  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:21:47pm

re: #276 ShanghaiEd

Hi, sub! Well, what if more scientists raised their hands than not? What if the vast majority of them did?

That's the standard in every other area of our lives where our health and safety is concerned. Why should global warming be the one area where people with no expertise in a given field get veto rights, and we demand 100% consensus before we take any action?

Hi Ed!! It's great to see ya tonight!! Okay, gotta go with it. There once was a time when every reputable scientist believed the sun revolved around the earth. Thank heavens (no pun intended) we didn't legislate based on their expertise!

283 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:21:51pm

re: #277 mrshankly01

i don't agree that there is a "preponderance of the evidence". I agree that there is a consensus (if you take the United Nations and Al Gore's word), but I can give you some great michael crichton links to show you that consensus is a bunk measure of scientific worth. Also, how do you determine that there is a "preponderance of the evidence." Please do not use the United Nations panel as we have seen many times on this website that it is an organization determined to bring down industrialized first world nations. Also, you say that Scientists that are unfunded by corporate interests are the only scientists worth listening to. are these the same scientists that are funded by government interests actively looking for proof of global warming and knowing if they don't find it they will loose their funding. Also, do you claim that the biggest climate change champion of them all, Al Gore, is untainted by corporate influence.

I object to you pointing the finger at people who do not believing in Gl0obal Warming as being profiteers and dishonorable. That is a straw man argument. Counter them with facts and analysis and not populist crap such as they are "bought by the MAN"

Michael Crichton.

If you would take the word of a fiction writer over the word of career scientists, then I really don't have much to say. Seriously. Michael Crichton?

I didn't use the phrase "bought by the man." How would you describe the behavior of the cigarette companies in regard to cancer for several decades, after internal documents showed they knew the dangers? Was that "populist crap"?

They are countered with facts and analysis. Have you read any of the great links Charles has posted recently, a sort of "mythbusters" of the most common arguments on the subject? If you can read those and not change your opinion, I'll get off your back.

284 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:22:50pm

re: #280 mrshankly01

"a logical fallacy" such as claiming that all global warming deniers are bought out by the man.

Did not say that, mrshankly. Those are your words.

285 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:24:32pm

re: #274 realwest

Hey Shar - just can't sleep now.
You said "Freedom means other people get to make decisions you don't like."

Which would be fine and accurate unless of course the decisions made violate the Constitution, right?

Naturally. I think the vast majority of LGFers agree that your liberty stops when it infringes upon the liberties of another. I can certainly add that disclaimer every time I reference liberty, but I think it's assumed.

286 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:25:59pm

re: #277 mrshankly01

i don't agree that there is a "preponderance of the evidence". I agree that there is a consensus (if you take the United Nations and Al Gore's word), but I can give you some great michael crichton links to show you that consensus is a bunk measure of scientific worth. Also, how do you determine that there is a "preponderance of the evidence." Please do not use the United Nations panel as we have seen many times on this website that it is an organization determined to bring down industrialized first world nations. Also, you say that Scientists that are unfunded by corporate interests are the only scientists worth listening to. are these the same scientists that are funded by government interests actively looking for proof of global warming and knowing if they don't find it they will loose their funding. Also, do you claim that the biggest climate change champion of them all, Al Gore, is untainted by corporate influence.

I object to you pointing the finger at people who do not believing in Gl0obal Warming as being profiteers and dishonorable. That is a straw man argument. Counter them with facts and analysis and not populist crap such as they are "bought by the MAN"

Lo, I have been summoned...

Please look at any of the dozens of links to actual data and actual analysis I have given.

As to Subsailor,

Sub your wrong about how science works. It isn't just that more scientists raised their hands, it is that more scientists were convinced by the evidence to the point that consensus was built. Look, I know that the science is complex and that the MSM does a terrible job of reporting it, but honestly, the science - outside of the modeling is pretty straight forward.

GHGs are quite real. When they absorb certain wavelengths of light they get hot. This is not in dispute. It follows that the more of them you pump into your atmosphere the hotter it will get.

If you buy that, you buy that a problem does exist, because it must exist.

All of the debates about how bad it will get and how soon are more complicated because there are all sorts of feedback loops and currents to try to consider. However, do not think for a moment that means there isn't a looming problem. There is NO debate from any scientist that a problem is looming if we go on indefinitely as we are now. The only debate is how bad how soon.

Most evidence says that bad will be very bad and soon means by the end of this century.

287 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:26:03pm

re: #279 realwest

Hey sub! "Science is not an area where we go with an approach because more people raised their hands than did not." Is a great and true line, but could perhaps be refined to read "Science is not an area where we go with an approach because more qualfied scientists raised their hands than did not."

Hey, RW! In fact, we do exactly that. There's been opposition to nearly ever scientific discovery I know of, but we do actually go with the approach that is most widely recommended until facts and experience prove otherwise.

What other area of our life requires a 100% consensus before taking any action?

288 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:26:56pm

re: #283 ShanghaiEd

So does that mean you're on board with slaughtering the last bit of manufacturing in the USA (and sending $$$ to China so their manufacturing facilities can be cap & trade compliant), running energy exploration firms, small trucking companies, family run farms and short-haul railways out of business because 'it's for the greater good'?

And I'm sure these will all be readily replaced by 'green collar' jobs with the snap of a finger

289 freetoken  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:26:57pm

re: #283 ShanghaiEd

You're doing fine, S.Ed, but as you are aware of by now, be prepared for many strawmen to come your way.

As for the "consensus", here is someplace to start:

[Link: www.eurekalert.org...]

290 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:27:36pm

re: #275 Fenway_Nation
You manifestly do not understand the situation. This nation is in DIRE NEED to get away from relying on both foreign sources of fuel AND to get away from using FOSSIL FUELS.
Regretably, the only method of doing both - becoming "energy independent" and cut fossil fuels is Nuclear Power. Yes, Solar, Wind and other "alternative fuels" do show some hope that they will someday be able to supply SIGNIFICANT amounts of energy to a SIGNIFICANT portion of the population. But, RIGHT NOW, the ONLY proven source of alternative fuel is Nuclear Power. Even the French have figured that out and generate over 75% of the entire nation of France's electrical needs with using nuclear power.
But we can't use nuclear power because it's too clean, to easily available (if permits can be given and litigation avoided or terminated for good). Why that hasn't factored into Cap and Trade is beyond me.
///

291 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:28:52pm

re: #289 freetoken

Said the scarecrow...

292 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:31:21pm

We know that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas (that is, it traps radiant heat from sunlight). We also know that it is a relatively weak greenhouse gas (methane, for instance, is much stronger), one that is typically consumed in a feedback fashion by a increased-co2-level-caused global proliferation of land and ocean plant life, and we know both that the earth has been much warmer than it is now, and that carbon dioxide and methane levels have been much higher than they are now - just not necessarily at the same times. And therein lies the rub.

While there is no doubt that increased levels of greenhouse gases can contribute to global warming, the mostly-ignored-by-agenda-driven people evidence is that it is primarily a phenomenon born of cyclically variable solar radiation levels, and totally beyond our control. They are ignoring this evidence, because it leaves them much less to do - many fewer products to design and produce and many fewer contracts and grants to win.

293 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:31:42pm

re: #285 Sharmuta
Thanks Sharmuta - I knew YOU understood and believed that and I don't think YOU need to add it as a disclaimer, but regrettably, there are times and for certain people out here (remember, there are probably 50,000 non-registered LGFers who read LGF from time to time and may not share the same feelings or beliefs that we do about Freedom).

294 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:31:50pm

re: #282 subsailor68

Hi Ed!! It's great to see ya tonight!! Okay, gotta go with it. There once was a time when every reputable scientist believed the sun revolved around the earth. Thank heavens (no pun intended) we didn't legislate based on their expertise!

Good to see you too, sub!

Well, when that was the extent of scientific knowledge, everybody did legislate based on their expertise. Including torturing to death anybody who questioned the concept of a revolving sun. They didn't know any better. Now we do. Though if you'll check the Web, there's still an active community denying that the earth rotates around the sun. Have you seen it?

If we reject scientific evidence because it might change in the future, then we're essentially living in medieval times.

My main question is, what other area of science requires 100% agreement before taking prudent steps to protect ourselves and our families?

295 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:33:09pm

re: #292 Salamantis
Spot on Salamantis.

And on that cheery note, I'm off to try to sleep again!

Goodnight, all.

296 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:33:29pm

re: #295 realwest

Good luck with that, RW

297 mrshankly01  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:34:36pm

re: #283 ShanghaiEd

well we weren't talking about cigarettes were we. also, if a Harvard summa cum laudi graduate in biological anthropology isn't someone I should be listening to to tell me about science, than maybe this is better (hopefully the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at MIT hasn't been "bought")

and as for all of the myth busting links that have been posted recently, I can still show you links from prominent scientists that disagree. I have a history degree and I am getting my MBA. I cannot match wits with even little ole Michael C, and definitely not either the climate changers and the skeptics. thus, I cannot agree to wreck our country's financial system because of something that has not been definitely shown to be true.

298 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:34:37pm

re: #289 freetoken

You're doing fine, S.Ed, but as you are aware of by now, be prepared for many strawmen to come your way.

As for the "consensus", here is someplace to start:

[Link: www.eurekalert.org...]

Good link, freetoken. I've bookmarked it; thanks.

I'm about argued out on the GW subject for tonight. Fortunately Ludwig is here, and he's at least a hundred times more knowledgeable on the subject than I am. I'm just a science nerd who's been reading about the subject since grammar school.

299 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:35:34pm

Touching on social evolution and behavior traits in our ape relatives again for a moment-

It's interesting to read the studies on social interactions of the apes. They too are capable of sympathy and exerting social pressures on behavior. When a male goes too far in his rule, the other apes can and do rebel against his authority. Sometimes his harem will reject him for a time, or the entire group will replace him with another male authority. They are microcosms of our societies, of our forms of government in their more "natural" state. It's amazing we ever broke out of that cycle at all, and for many places in the world- they haven't experienced that break at all.

300 SixDegrees  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:36:15pm

re: #278 mrshankly01

the republicans gave president clinton the line item veto. it was part of the contract with america in order to reduce earmark. the first year the republicans were in control of congress, 1995, they actually did reduce the number of earmarks, then it started increasing again.

It doesn't take a line item veto to do away with earmarks. Earmarks are not part of a bill; they are riders attached to bills that get pass along with it, through a gentleman's agreement between the Executive Branch and Congress. If the President decides to remove those riders from the bill, in whole or in part, then sign the bill itself, only the bill and any earmarks he's left attached to it are passed; the rest go straight in the waste basket.

Any President who wants to can end earmarking in a heartbeat by simply refusing to accept the riders. None have done so out of fear of having Congress completely refuse to support the Administration in any way at all. Congress loves earmarks because it allows them to attach non-bills that send money directly to their constituents, without having to attach their names to anything that might become embarrassing and without having to submit such items to debate or scrutiny of any kind. The make the legislative process completely, utterly opaque to examination; even if an earmark turns out to be ridiculous and embarrassing, there is no way to find out who attached it.

It's a process that ought to be stopped cold by a President sick of such subterfuge. So far, none have taken the simple step of doing so.

301 realwest  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:38:32pm

re: #296 Fenway_Nation

Good luck with that, RW


?? It is true, is it not? Why haven't the Democrat Party controlled Congress not included STRONG, immediate, reliance and use of that in Cap and Trade?
What's that you say? Taxes, revenues? I thought the idea behind Cap and Trade was to clean up our act, so to speak!
/
Now going to sleep!

302 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:38:47pm

re: #297 mrshankly01

well we weren't talking about cigarettes were we. also, if a Harvard summa cum laudi graduate in biological anthropology isn't someone I should be listening to to tell me about science, than maybe this is better (hopefully the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at MIT hasn't been "bought")

and as for all of the myth busting links that have been posted recently, I can still show you links from prominent scientists that disagree. I have a history degree and I am getting my MBA. I cannot match wits with even little ole Michael C, and definitely not either the climate changers and the skeptics. thus, I cannot agree to wreck our country's financial system because of something that has not been definitely shown to be true.

Actually, I was talking about cigarettes. Do you think we shouldn't learn from that experience?

It's not a matter of matching wits. It's scientific facts in the field of science.

Do you know of any subject on which prominent scientists don't disagree?

I'll have to agree to disagree with you on GW. But I appreciate your reply.

303 subsailor68  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:39:22pm

re: #286 Ludwigvanquixote

Lo, I have been summoned...

Please look at any of the dozens of links to actual data and actual analysis I have given.

As to Subsailor,

Sub your wrong about how science works. It isn't just that more scientists raised their hands, it is that more scientists were convinced by the evidence to the point that consensus was built. Look, I know that the science is complex and that the MSM does a terrible job of reporting it, but honestly, the science - outside of the modeling is pretty straight forward.

GHGs are quite real. When they absorb certain wavelengths of light they get hot. This is not in dispute. It follows that the more of them you pump into your atmosphere the hotter it will get.

If you buy that, you buy that a problem does exist, because it must exist.

All of the debates about how bad it will get and how soon are more complicated because there are all sorts of feedback loops and currents to try to consider. However, do not think for a moment that means there isn't a looming problem. There is NO debate from any scientist that a problem is looming if we go on indefinitely as we are now. The only debate is how bad how soon.

Most evidence says that bad will be very bad and soon means by the end of this century.

Hi Ludwig! I accept your expertise, no question. Hey, I'm a writer, not a scientist! Just a couple of quick observations on your - pretty cool, if I might say so - post.

"GHG's are quite real." I can go with that. I can also go with "the more you pump into your atmosphere, the hotter it will get." Everything you write after that is based on the premise that we are at a point where GHG's are causing a critical situation - and that's where scientists seem to disagree.

31,500 scientists in this country have signed a "petition"/letter saying that there is a question about this. (And yes, I know others have questioned these scientists' motives.)

And, if - as you write - There is NO debate from any scientist that a problem is looming if we go on indefinitely as we are now. - I'd really love to have a link to data backing up that claim.

304 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:39:56pm

re: #292 Salamantis

We know that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas (that is, it traps radiant heat from sunlight). We also know that it is a relatively weak greenhouse gas (methane, for instance, is much stronger), one that is typically consumed in a feedback fashion by a increased-co2-level-caused global proliferation of land and ocean plant life, and we know both that the earth has been much warmer than it is now, and that carbon dioxide and methane levels have been much higher than they are now - just not necessarily at the same times. And therein lies the rub.

While there is no doubt that increased levels of greenhouse gases can contribute to global warming, the mostly-ignored-by-agenda-driven people evidence is that it is primarily a phenomenon born of cyclically variable solar radiation levels, and totally beyond our control. They are ignoring this evidence, because it leaves them much less to do - many fewer products to design and produce and many fewer contracts and grants to win.

Sal you are off base with this. Methane is a worse gas but it only stays in the atmosphere for years. CO2 on the other hand stays for centuries.

You are also right that the used to be much more CO2 in the past. IN fact, during the Jurassic Co2 levels were four times what they are today, AND WE HAD NO POLAR CAPS and much of the land we know and love today was underwater. Where did those great salt flats come from?

Right, the issue is not just that we have more and more CO2 concentration, it is that we have pumped it into the atmosphere at an insanely fast rate by geological standards and killed a huge amount of the plants that would scrub it.

This has set off any number of feedback loops. INcidently, speaking of methane, how much do you think comes out of the Siberian bog now that it is thawing?

What about reduced albedo? This is not a difficult concept, if you reflect less light you absorb more light - and get warmer because energy is conserved.

This means even more ice will melt reducing the albedo more.

Forget how to model that for a moment and accept that whatever the math is on such a process, it must exist and that by pumping higher concentrations of GHGs into the atmosphere we must be triggering these feedbacks.

305 mrshankly01  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:41:45pm

re: #300 SixDegrees

i know, i was just making the point that the line item veto was a republican tool given to a democratic president. nothing more.

306 freetoken  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:45:05pm

re: #298 ShanghaiEd

I'm about argued out on the GW subject for tonight.

You and LVQ have been the action officers of late on AGW... not a very rewarding job around here, but worth the effort... I think.

307 subsailor68  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:45:27pm

re: #294 ShanghaiEd

Good to see you too, sub!

Well, when that was the extent of scientific knowledge, everybody did legislate based on their expertise. Including torturing to death anybody who questioned the concept of a revolving sun. They didn't know any better. Now we do. Though if you'll check the Web, there's still an active community denying that the earth rotates around the sun. Have you seen it?

If we reject scientific evidence because it might change in the future, then we're essentially living in medieval times.

My main question is, what other area of science requires 100% agreement before taking prudent steps to protect ourselves and our families?

LOL!! Nope, haven't checked the web on those guys - you didn't log on and burst their bubble did ya?

I guess - in all seriousness - going to your last question, it's not that I'm looking for 100% agreement, it is more the fear that the Al Gores of the world aren't necessarily interested in you, me, and our families - it's more that when I see someone who stands to benefit from the fear he can instill in others - I just wonder.

308 TheMatrix31  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:45:33pm

I need an overnight thread, lol.

309 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:45:47pm

re: #288 Fenway_Nation

So does that mean you're on board with slaughtering the last bit of manufacturing in the USA (and sending $$$ to China so their manufacturing facilities can be cap & trade compliant), running energy exploration firms, small trucking companies, family run farms and short-haul railways out of business because 'it's for the greater good'?

And I'm sure these will all be readily replaced by 'green collar' jobs with the snap of a finger

No, I'm not on board with any of that. But, how we attack the problem is a totally different subject than arguing that there's a problem in the first place.

Arguing that there's no problem because the solutions might be painful is sort of a circular enterprise, isn't it? In any event, I've enjoyed talking with you and I'm on to other subjects for now.

310 mrshankly01  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:47:07pm

re: #302 ShanghaiEd

i have no opinion on the validity of global warming. there is a ton of science and good scientists out there supporting it. i am not qualified to say. i won't assume that they have been bought out. neither will I assume that the skeptics have been bought out either. I just think that now is the wrong time to deal with it. lets get out of the worst recession in 70 years.

311 subsailor68  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:47:25pm

re: #308 TheMatrix31

I need an overnight thread, lol.

No overnight thread for you!!

(The thread nazi)

:-)

312 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:48:18pm

What are we going to to about the looming problem of plate tectonics?

313 SixDegrees  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:48:57pm

re: #305 mrshankly01

i know, i was just making the point that the line item veto was a republican tool given to a democratic president. nothing more.

Certainly true. It deserves to be revisited to see if it's Constitutional issues can be solved in some way. Although I think it's going to take a President willing to reverse the trend toward bills loaded with pork unrelated to the bill's purpose to make a stand and refuse to sign such garbage to start returning to single-issue bills. And even then, the temptation to return to the old ways will remain strong for years to come.

314 Syrah  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:49:04pm

re: #312 Sharmuta

What are we going to to about the looming problem of plate tectonics?

OMG! We are all going to die!

315 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:49:34pm

re: #312 Sharmuta

Is that when those hundreds of thousands of unsold limited edition 0bama innaguration collector plates all wind up colliding?

316 subsailor68  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:49:40pm

OMG! Just saw that it's almost 2 a.m. here in the Texas Hill Country! Gotta get up in about five hours.

To all my friends posting here tonight - thanks!! I've learned a bit, had a lovely evening, and am ready to get a bit of sleep and hit it again tomorrow!!

Everyone please have a wonderful evening!!

317 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:49:40pm

re: #307 subsailor68

LOL!! Nope, haven't checked the web on those guys - you didn't log on and burst their bubble did ya?

I guess - in all seriousness - going to your last question, it's not that I'm looking for 100% agreement, it is more the fear that the Al Gores of the world aren't necessarily interested in you, me, and our families - it's more that when I see someone who stands to benefit from the fear he can instill in others - I just wonder.

If all "the Al Gores of the world" died tomorrow, it wouldn't change the climate one bit, though, would it? Al Gore didn't do the science. He just talks about it. And disliking an individual is a poor reason for ignoring science, wouldn't you say?

Anyhow, I'm on to other subjects now. Hope you're well.

318 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:49:59pm

re: #314 Syrah

OMG! We are all going to die!

Don't get me started on the looming problem of collision with the Andromeda galaxy.

319 Syrah  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:51:11pm

re: #318 Sharmuta

Don't get me started on the looming problem of collision with the Andromeda galaxy.

Damn! That is serious stuff. We must jail all of the deniers and accrue all power to ourselves. Instantly!

320 subsailor68  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:52:15pm

re: #317 ShanghaiEd

If all "the Al Gores of the world" died tomorrow, it wouldn't change the climate one bit, though, would it? Al Gore didn't do the science. He just talks about it. And disliking an individual is a poor reason for ignoring science, wouldn't you say?

Anyhow, I'm on to other subjects now. Hope you're well.

Ha! Good point! I don't dislike Al Gore for not doing the science. I just find it ironic that he accepted a Nobel Prize for simply talking about it.

Sleep well, and I look forward to talking with ya tomorrow!!

321 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:52:20pm

re: #304 Ludwigvanquixote

Sal you are off base with this. Methane is a worse gas but it only stays in the atmosphere for years. CO2 on the other hand stays for centuries.

You are also right that the used to be much more CO2 in the past. IN fact, during the Jurassic Co2 levels were four times what they are today, AND WE HAD NO POLAR CAPS and much of the land we know and love today was underwater. Where did those great salt flats come from?

Right, the issue is not just that we have more and more CO2 concentration, it is that we have pumped it into the atmosphere at an insanely fast rate by geological standards and killed a huge amount of the plants that would scrub it.

This has set off any number of feedback loops. INcidently, speaking of methane, how much do you think comes out of the Siberian bog now that it is thawing?

What about reduced albedo? This is not a difficult concept, if you reflect less light you absorb more light - and get warmer because energy is conserved.

This means even more ice will melt reducing the albedo more.

Forget how to model that for a moment and accept that whatever the math is on such a process, it must exist and that by pumping higher concentrations of GHGs into the atmosphere we must be triggering these feedbacks.

We have indeed had times with no polar ice caps. We have also had Ice Ages - and much more recently. It is abundantly clear that these major fluctuations were not caused by human industrial carbon dioxide output. And indeed, co2 levels were not a leading indicator of Ice Ages, but a lagging one, as vegetation froze that would otherwise have consumed co2.

As I said before, our production of greenhouse gases must contribute somewhat to a small percentage of the warming of the ambient temperature (which was nevertheless as hot in the US as it is now in the '30's before cooling for a period), but its effect is greatly outweighed by the effect caused by solar variations in the amount of radiant energy that reaches us in the first place.

The most influential greenhouse gas by far remains water vapor.

322 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:52:21pm

re: #308 TheMatrix31

I need an overnight thread, lol.

Getting a little warm in here, is it? :)

323 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:52:57pm

And I'm NOT making fun of LVQ or FT or SE. I accept climate change happens, and have no problem finding better resources through science and technology. My issue with the AGW activists abusing science to promote their agenda.

324 mrshankly01  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:52:58pm

re: #313 SixDegrees

i agree. too much benefit to the congressman for pork, though.

325 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:53:38pm

re: #303 subsailor68

Hi Ludwig! I accept your expertise, no question. Hey, I'm a writer, not a scientist! Just a couple of quick observations on your - pretty cool, if I might say so - post.

"GHG's are quite real." I can go with that. I can also go with "the more you pump into your atmosphere, the hotter it will get." Everything you write after that is based on the premise that we are at a point where GHG's are causing a critical situation - and that's where scientists seem to disagree.

31,500 scientists in this country have signed a "petition"/letter saying that there is a question about this. (And yes, I know others have questioned these scientists' motives.)

And, if - as you write - There is NO debate from any scientist that a problem is looming if we go on indefinitely as we are now. - I'd really love to have a link to data backing up that claim.

I don't know about that petition, but I do know it is one of a very few positions statements of the APS (American physical society) that there is a problem. Honestly Sub, if there isn't a vast consensus then the community is sure making a lot of noise for nothing.

As to no one says there is not a problem if we continue as we are indefinitely, look at the Keeling curves. These directly measure atmospheric concentrations optically.

[Link: www.ossfoundation.us...]

Notice how CO2 keeps going up and up (and O2 is going down) Now if you get, and buy, that the more GHG you have, the hotter it will get, then please notice how we just keep adding more and more of it. Therefore, NO scientist who looks at the measurements could possibly say that if these trends continue there would not be a problem.

As to your other excellent questions, it is late and I do not mean to be a dick, but you are basically asking me to rewrite all sorts of things I have written over the past several months.

Please look at this page and it's links. It explains an awful lot and has all sorts of highways and byways you can look into.

[Link: earthguide.ucsd.edu...]

Also note, that I keep bringing stuff from Universities and Journals and Government scientific agencies and the other side tends to bring Michael Crichton?

326 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:53:50pm

re: #317 ShanghaiEd

re: #307 subsailor68


If all "the Al Gores of the world" died tomorrow, it wouldn't change the climate one bit, though, would it? Al Gore didn't do the science. He just talks about it. And disliking an individual is a poor reason for ignoring science, wouldn't you say?

So throwing our money at the problem while crippling ourselves economically (to the tremendous benefit of India and China) is the answer...

327 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:55:27pm

re: #321 Salamantis

Sal, water vapor condenses and rains. You are missing the point about atmospheric life cycles. Yes it is part of the issue, but it is not a driver as much as a responder in that an over all warmer atmosphere will have more water vapor in it at any given time. This is actually another carbon feedback.

328 srb1976  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:55:30pm

Evenin' folks...just checking in from work

329 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:55:46pm

Heya srb...

330 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:55:54pm

And indeed, co2 levels were not a leading indicator of Ice Ages, but a lagging one, as vegetation froze that would otherwise have consumed co2.

I wanted to make this more explicit; it means that co2 levels were not the cause of Ice Ages so much as they were caused by them.

331 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:56:33pm

What I wonder about climate change is if this time man himself isn't contributing to an environmental pressure that will bring about an adaptation. Are we creating our own evolution?

332 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:59:23pm

re: #330 Salamantis

And indeed, co2 levels were not a leading indicator of Ice Ages, but a lagging one, as vegetation froze that would otherwise have consumed co2.

I wanted to make this more explicit; it means that co2 levels were not the cause of Ice Ages so much as they were caused by them.

Sal, that is because there was less vegetation eating the carbon, and then if you had an eruption, the carbon lingered and things heated up.

Don't you see we are killing more of our flora than an ice age, while we are pumping vastly more carbon than volcanos?

Don't you see that your own argument supports AGW?

333 mrshankly01  Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:59:48pm

re: #325 Ludwigvanquixote

do you think that we should be attempting to reduce global warming now and do think that the US can do it without the assistance of China and India?

334 freetoken  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:01:12am

re: #331 Sharmuta

Are we creating our own evolution?

I suppose it is. However, that is not too surprising to me, seeing how we have done that with lactose intolerance.

335 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:01:18am

re: #326 Fenway_Nation

So throwing our money at the problem while crippling ourselves economically (to the tremendous benefit of India and China) is the answer...

Totally different subject, Fenway.

If you agree there's a problem, then it's time to argue about solutions. "Throwing money" and "crippling ourselves" are obviously not good ones. Right?

If you don't agree there's a problem, then the whole thing is a moot point, right?

Which category do you fit into?

I'm on to other subjects now, and out of your hair. See you on the next thread.

336 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:02:20am

re: #331 Sharmuta

What I wonder about climate change is if this time man himself isn't contributing to an environmental pressure that will bring about an adaptation. Are we creating our own evolution?

Very well possible. It's just that any adaptation that requires my death is, by definition, not a good adaptation. But, that's just me. :)

337 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:02:22am

re: #332 Ludwigvanquixote

Sal, that is because there was less vegetation eating the carbon, and then if you had an eruption, the carbon lingered and things heated up.

Don't you see we are killing more of our flora than an ice age, while we are pumping vastly more carbon than volcanos?

Don't you see that your own argument supports AGW?

Actually, rising temperatures lead to a greater profusion of flora, both on land and, especially, in the oceans.

I don't like seeing us cut down old growth forests, because it irreparably damages the local ecosystems that depend upon them. But there is much more to land flora than trees.

338 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:02:29am

re: #333 mrshankly01

do you think that we should be attempting to reduce global warming now and do think that the US can do it without the assistance of China and India?

I think you already saw my five point post about what we need to do.

339 subsailor68  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:03:40am

re: #325 Ludwigvanquixote

Ludwig, my friend, you are not "a dick". I really do appreciate your posts! Here's a link to Walter Williams' column where he makes the points I (not as a scientist) was making:

EPA Cover-Up

I concede the point that Williams is an economist, but have always found his assertions to be researched - and documented.

340 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:03:45am

re: #337 Salamantis

Actually, rising temperatures lead to a greater profusion of flora, both on land and, especially, in the oceans.

I don't like seeing us cut down old growth forests, because it irreparably damages the local ecosystems that depend upon them. But there is much more to land flora than trees.

Yeah like ocean algae which is dying. And the HEat doesn't mean more plants, it;s the extra CO2, only we have been killing the plants and even if we weren't it takes them centuries to scrub it! During all of those centuries it gets hotter!

341 Syrah  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:05:01am

re: #331 Sharmuta

What I wonder about climate change is if this time man himself isn't contributing to an environmental pressure that will bring about an adaptation. Are we creating our own evolution?

Medical advancements create a divergence of evolutionary pressure. Conditions that were once fatal or at the least severely limiting, are no longer as much of a barrier to procreation as they have been in the previous eons.

Additionally, cheap travel has created a homogenizing pressure on the species as well. Isolations that had created differentiations over the last several eons no longer really exist. We are all living in the same local now, with little to no barriers to commingling with others who may look different.

We as a species have begun to strongly influence our own evolution in a very dramatic way in the last two hundred years.

342 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:05:31am

re: #339 subsailor68

Ludwig, my friend, you are not "a dick". I really do appreciate your posts! Here's a link to Walter Williams' column where he makes the points I (not as a scientist) was making:

EPA Cover-Up

I concede the point that Williams is an economist, but have always found his assertions to be researched - and documented.

But sub, if you buy that the more GHG we have the hotter it must get, then look at the actual trends in GHGs. OK? - do you see why if we continue indefinitely this way, there MUST be a problem somewhere? Right the Keeling curve really is the answer to your question.

343 subsailor68  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:05:59am

Okay guys, now I'm really off to bed! It's been great, and really hope to see everyone tomorrow!

344 shortshrift  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:06:09am

I have read the David Klinghoffer piece a dozen times, and each time I see his last paragraph as a bookish joke - laughing precisely at the idea of reading contemporary relevance into Maimonides that could not have been there. It is Kraemer who is drawing a parallel between Judaism (monotheists) and intelligent design and the Epicureans and modern Darwinian atheists. Klinghoffer is quite clearly laughing at this - even if he does believe in intelligent design. He is making a joke that ID is an "authentically Jewish cause." There really is no need to rescue Maimonides from Klinghoffer's grasp.
Even ID proponents are entitled to their little ironic jokes. But as with all ID threads, I have been dazzled by science and faith, and have learned by the wisdom of the dings:
1. Deists hate ID because it is a disguised form of Creationism which is doctrinally out-of-date.
2. Creationism is doctrinally out-of-date because it is scientifically disprovable.
3. God the creator of the universe is not scientifically disprovable and so belief in him is not - and never will be - incompatible with science.
4. Therefore, Deists can have God and evolution with no contradiction.

345 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:07:31am

Oh hell bed for me too

346 freetoken  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:07:31am

re: #330 Salamantis

I wanted to make this more explicit; it means that co2 levels were not the cause of Ice Ages so much as they were caused by them.

To be more specific, the immediate temporal drivers of ice ages is due to the Earth's orbit (and changes therein). However, in regards to the nature of the change, that is, in figuring out why the temperature and ice cover changes ended up where they did, depends upon how the atmosphere changed, among other things.

Indeed, this is the key. It was when the paleoclimatologists discovered that the changes during ice ages exceeded what would be expected just by changes in radiation hitting the Earth's surface (due to changes in the orbit) that it became clear just how important is feedback into the elements of Earth's climate.

Remember, what we are dealing with in AGW is not finding causes to past events, but dealing with a human perturbation in addition to the changes timed by Earth's orbit.

347 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:07:39am

Night all!

348 ShanghaiEd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:08:32am

re: #347 Ludwigvanquixote

Night all!

Night, Ludwig! Keep fighting the good fight...

349 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:08:42am

re: #331 Sharmuta

What I wonder about climate change is if this time man himself isn't contributing to an environmental pressure that will bring about an adaptation. Are we creating our own evolution?

We will evolve gills, and perhaps fins or webbed digits. We will adapt to aquatic life, and the Kama Sutra will have to be updated with several new chapters.
/

350 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:09:33am

re: #340 Ludwigvanquixote

Yeah like ocean algae which is dying. And the HEat doesn't mean more plants, it;s the extra CO2, only we have been killing the plants and even if we weren't it takes them centuries to scrub it! During all of those centuries it gets hotter!

Actually, warmer oceans accelerates algae growth. It's the same principle we see with land perrenials; they scale back when it's colder, and proliferate when it's warmer (which is why algae grows much more profusely near the equator than near the poles), to a degree. And the oceans are not even close to reaching a temperature that would damage global oceanic algae growth.

351 subsailor68  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:09:36am

re: #342 Ludwigvanquixote

But sub, if you buy that the more GHG we have the hotter it must get, then look at the actual trends in GHGs. OK? - do you see why if we continue indefinitely this way, there MUST be a problem somewhere? Right the Keeling curve really is the answer to your question.

Oops! Just logging off when I saw your post. I promise that in the morning I'll check out the Keeling curve.

I hope ya know by now that I'm not married to an ideology - or a theory - I'm ready to check out all the info - and thanks for your willingness to give me some places to check out!!

352 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:09:56am

re: #334 freetoken

Well- we know that we as a species will either suffer extinction at some point or we will evolve, because that is what happens in the grand scheme of Life. We know we have a set amount of time before the sun will spend it's fuel. That's quite some time from now, and I suspect mankind as we know it will no longer exist at that point- through either extinction or evolution. If we are extinct, the point it moot. If we exist in our current state or a more evolved state- we can have no idea. But let us hope an intelligent earth life form can find a way to continue when that bill comes due.

The moral of the story is- Jupiter needs to keep taking the hits.

353 mrshankly01  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:09:57am

me too, night all. have a great evening. lud, shagn, it was fun.

fenway, hooah. rock of the marne.

354 freetoken  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:09:59am

BTW, I really didn't come here tonight to discuss AGW... rather, I'm waiting to post (in the LNDT spin-offs) a few of my more interesting links that I stumbled upon today... Where is the dead thread?

355 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:10:02am

re: #335 ShanghaiEd

If it is a problem, I don't see how the same people who brought us Stimulus: The Beginning and upcoming features such as 0bamacare and Stimulus 2; Revenge of the Debtors will solve this massive, crushing problem that we're supposedly staring down the barrel of with KneeCap and Trade.

It's prototypical overreaching bad government designed to get their hands in more pockets and would do nothing to alleviate the problem at hand...

356 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:10:55am

re: #353 mrshankly01

Cottonbailers, by God! mrshankly...

357 jvic  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:14:54am

The following is a placeholder for a much long post(s) that I may never get around to writing.

Suppose we as a species want to change the climate. In the next decade or few, is it easier to heat the Earth's surface or cool it? I assume heating is easier. If that's incorrect, what follows is invalid.

Suppose we are uncertain whether AGW is a threat, cooling is a threat, or the climate is fluctuating benignly. In that case, we ought to adopt the policy that is easiest to reverse if it turns out to be wrong.

Therefore, we should assume warming and act to mitigate it.

I can't escape from this logic even though the look and feel of the AGW side in the debate shouting match threaten to burn out my BS detector.

358 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:15:05am

re: #354 freetoken

I regret to inform you that...the dead thread...didn't make it.

359 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:15:40am

re: #355 Fenway_Nation

Just make a note that I am stealing "kneecap and trade" and will probably use it without proper attribution at some point...love it!

360 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:16:37am

re: #359 srb1976

Fair enough...it's been in circulation long enough that I can't remember whom I got it from.

361 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:17:21am

re: #352 Sharmuta


The moral of the story is- Jupiter needs to keep taking the hits.

No, that fucker is taking too many, and someone needs to teach him some proper party etiquette. It's "puff, puff, give" you jerk, "puff, puff, give".

/wait, what?

362 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:18:42am

re: #360 Fenway_Nation

Fair enough...it's been in circulation long enough that I can't remember whom I got it from.

Somehow I had managed to hear it til now...that makes you the winner = )

363 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:19:33am

re: #362 srb1976

Hooray for me winning by default!
/yay default!

364 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:21:49am

re: #361 Slumbering Behemoth

And be sure to remind Jupiter it goes clockwise, not counter-clockwise.

That dude is starting to piss me off.
//

365 freetoken  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:22:39am

re: #364 Slumbering Behemoth

That dude is starting to piss me off.
//

He is bigger than you... be careful.

366 freetoken  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:23:17am

While we are waiting for the overnight thread...

SG-1 Season 5 is now at Hulu.

367 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:28:23am

re: #341 Syrah

Medical advancements create a divergence of evolutionary pressure. Conditions that were once fatal or at the least severely limiting, are no longer as much of a barrier to procreation as they have been in the previous eons.

Additionally, cheap travel has created a homogenizing pressure on the species as well. Isolations that had created differentiations over the last several eons no longer really exist. We are all living in the same local now, with little to no barriers to commingling with others who may look different.

We as a species have begun to strongly influence our own evolution in a very dramatic way in the last two hundred years.

The evolutionary pressure of human intelligence works both ways, perhaps. The pressure on diseases is to get around our ability to learn how to cure them. We see this especially with AIDS.

But our intelligence has also lead to a society where society itself is now influencing the environment. We'll have to evolve- at least socially. There is nothing wrong with societal evolution- the constrained vision supports it. The problem with this issue is people proposing unconstrained solutions. But if done the right way- through advances in science and technology and knowledge- I have no issue with looking at AGW squarely in the face and dealing with it.

Forcing solutions is not for me. We can deal with this issue, but disrupting our society is not an option. Ignoring it and denying it are likewise not realistic. We are evolved to deal with this naturally through our inquisitive nature and intelligence. We can problem solve. A capitalist society should actually be better equipped for this, actually. If there is money to be made dealing with an issue- people will sell it because they have buyers.

I think "the right" argues on the wrong grounds on this issue. Denial works hand in hand with the creationism to create an image of anti-science, and that's not good. We should argue against the vision selling a solution and argue in favor of the systemic process. The problem with this is the real anti-science crowd in the right is also unconstrained due to their religious fundamentalism. They are really not the allies of our vision that the left-right dichotomy says. How we resolve this issue is confounding.

368 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:28:35am

re: #365 freetoken

He is bigger than you... be careful.

I ain't sweating it. The bigger they come, the harder they fall, one and all.

/Okay, taking a bit of liberty with that one.

369 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:29:23am

re: #361 Slumbering Behemoth

No, that fucker is taking too many, and someone needs to teach him some proper party etiquette. It's "puff, puff, give" you jerk, "puff, puff, give".

/wait, what?

I love you, {Sleepy B}.

370 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:41:13am

re: #369 Sharmuta

:grins sheepishly with a red face, looking down at the ground and kicking a piece of dirt:

Aw shucks, Miss. Only trying to keep the Lizards amused is all.

371 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:42:23am

re: #370 Slumbering Behemoth

Keep up the good work.

372 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:45:16am

You know what would really liven up this thread? A good link.

373 amrafel  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:50:22am

An imaginary, but reasonable, conversation between Maimonides and Darwin:
D: So, Moshe, is your faith compatible with the belief that amoebas evolved into man?
M: Quite possibly. Is your teaching compatible with the belief that God created the first self-replicating "creature"?
D: Quite possibly.
M: And when man finally arrived on the scene, was God like "Ahh, just the way I planned" or "Whoa, would you get a look at that! Not what I was expecting at all."
D: Well, as you know, my theory claims that the process is not directed. So, I'd have to say the latter."
M: Bummer; is there a theory like yours that says it /was/ directed?
D: Well, there'll come this strange movement in a hundred years called Intelligent Design that /allows/ for such a process, but theistic evolutionists state it outright.
M: Well Darwin, I don't know what kind of characters I'll find in "ID" or "theistic evolutionists," but from what you just told me, I think I can't put all my support in your theory.

374 kynna  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:09:13am

re: #16 ShanghaiEd

And yet, Buddhism is often decried...especially by the Chinese...as "backward" and "superstitious," while modern-day Christianity is on the cutting edge of truth? I don't think so.

Not every Christian is an ID enthusiast. The Catholic church (Christian last I checked) has repudiated it.

The ID movement is bigger than it should be, but so's your broad brush.

375 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:10:51am

re: #371 Sharmuta

Quite nice of you to say. I do try. Sometimes I hit, sometimes I miss.

There are serious things to be discussed here, but sometimes a bit of levity is needed in between the serious shit. And sometimes that levity needs to be goofy and non-malicious. Seriously, who gives a flying fuck how many axehandles can be used to measure the First Lady's ass? And how is that even funny?

I can't stand people who are "always on", and I can't possibly be "always on" myself, but I do like disusing the serious issues.

At other times, like this moment, I prefer acting like a twelve year old. If others find my goofiness funny, that is straight gravy.

376 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:15:00am

UnbelievableDid you know that Armani makes toddler shoes?

377 gatorbait  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:33:41am

Maimonides made a number of very insightful observations in the Guide for the Perplexed. Among the most meaningful thoughts was his assertion that the universe was created by the Almighty from nothing, that the mind of Almighty is totally ineffable, that one could know the Almighty only from a study of his works, and the Torah was written in the language of man. I believe this construct supports the basis for Intelligent Design, does not invalidate Darwin, and is in opposition to any fundamentalist notion of biblical literacy. In my opinion, STUDY of science is a sacred undertaking. Know the Almighty, to the limited extent of human capability by knowing as much as you can about verifiable fact. Most of the opinions I read here are fatuous.

378 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:50:27am

Oh, boy. I avoid ID threads like the plague, but there's no regular overnight thread on which to serve fruitcup...

/conflicted :-(

379 TheMatrix31  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:51:12am

re: #378 littleoldlady

Oh, boy. I avoid ID threads like the plague, but there's no regular overnight thread on which to serve fruitcup...

/conflicted :-(

So do I.

380 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:52:41am

re: #378 littleoldlady

re: #379 TheMatrix31

I usually do, but will sometimes seize any change of topic...

381 TheMatrix31  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:58:04am

It's a combination of no knowledge + no real interest in the subject.

Religion's a deeply personal thing with me, so I don't like to get involved.

382 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:00:35am

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet --->
Help yourselves!

383 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:01:30am

re: #380 Fenway_Nation

Just killin' time til quittin' time...then my weekend starts...Yay! weekend!

384 freetoken  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:01:45am

re: #378 littleoldlady

/conflicted :-(

Conflicted...

385 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:03:00am

re: #384 freetoken

freetoken! :-)

That looks painful...

386 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:03:09am

re: #382 littleoldlady

Yay! Fruitcup!!

387 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:03:37am

re: #383 srb1976

My one-day workweek starts in a few hours...

388 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:04:36am

srb! :-)

389 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:04:59am

Fenway! :_)

I would say you're lucky but...

/...I know better :-/

390 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:05:28am

re: #382 littleoldlady

Yay! Fruitcup...

I gotta be honest- that last batch of fruitcup pruno didn't turn out so well...

391 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:07:04am

We're sending the Little Man's daycare class on a field trip today...he's very excited, so less guilt for me, for dropping them off and going to sleep

392 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:07:10am

My nose is slipping...

:-) she meant to type

393 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:07:13am

re: #377 gatorbait

Fatuous opinions indeed, mostly from those who fail to see the phrase "Intelligent Design" is much like the phrase "International Banker". A coded phrase meant to appear innocuous on its surface, with the intent of disguising the detrimental agenda hidden beneath.

Bait and switch, smoke and mirrors. The ID movement is not simply about the belief that a god, any god, or a pantheon of gods, or even a higher alien intelligence, is the architect of all life on earth. The Wedge Document proves this.

394 freetoken  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:07:29am

Conflicted fruitcup?

395 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:09:48am

re: #394 freetoken

No conflict there!

/I'd rather go hungry...

396 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:09:55am

OK lizards...beddy-bye time for me.

397 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:12:06am

re: #396 Fenway_Nation

Night Fenway...
And good luck = )

398 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:13:25am

'Night, Fenway! :-)re: #391 srb1976

We're sending the Little Man's daycare class on a field trip today...he's very excited, so less guilt for me, for dropping them off and going to sleep

You have way too much guilt, srb!

/I know...coming from me that sounds funny ;-)

Whatever you do now - right or wrong - they'll pay you back later IN SPADES.

/so stop feeling guilty and start...WORRYING!

;-)

399 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:15:20am

re: #395 littleoldlady

No conflict there!

/I'd rather go hungry...

This means I get your helping, right? Yippie! I still want the fruitcup, though.

/A Behemoth has to eat, you know.
//and eat, and eat, and eat...

400 Gus  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:17:15am

OT

Another Appointment in the Works for the Obama Administration

Cass R. Sunstein (1, 2) has been nominated to be the administrator for Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, or O.I.R.A. Mr. Sunstein is married to Samantha Power and is constitutional professor as well as an author of a multitude of papers and books.

One such paper includes “Standing for Animals” (3) in which he calls for an “Animal Bill of Rights” and provides several arguments for people to sue on behalf of animals to enforce existing animal cruelty and protection laws. This paper was included in the book “Animal Rights” (4) which he edited by Mr. Sunstein alongside Martha Nussbaum. “Animal Rights” also includes an essay by Peter Singer entitled, “Ethics Beyond Species and Beyond Instincts: A Response to Richard Posner.”

Cass R. Sunstein is also the author of “The Second Bill of Rights: FDR's Unfinished Revolution – And Why We Need It More Than Ever.” (5) According to Wiki (6) this is defined as an “economic bill of rights” which includes, “a job with a living wage; freedom from unfair competition and monopolies; a home; medical care; education; and recreation.” A reader of Mark Steyn points to similarities between the “second bill of rights” found in articles 40, 41, and 42 of the Constitution of the USSR. (7, 8)

1. NY Times Profile --[Link: topics.nytimes.com...]
2. Wiki Article – [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
3. “Standing for Animals” at SSRN – [Link: papers.ssrn.com...]
4. “Animal Rights” – [Link: books.google.com...]
5. “The Second Bill of Rights...” (Sunstein) – [Link: books.google.com...]
6. “Second Bill of Rights” (FDR) – [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
7. “The Second Bill of Rights” (Mark Steyn) – [Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]
8. “Constitution of the USSR” Articles 40, 41, and 42 – [Link: www.departments.bucknell.edu...]

401 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:17:15am

re: #398 littleoldlady

Oh...we worry too...but the guilt is mostly from trying to do too much at once, added to a work schedule that means that I miss a lot of time with the kids...haven't seen them for more than a few minutes in 4 days now...

402 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:17:34am

re: #399 Slumbering Behemoth

Slumbering! :-)

Carl in Jerusalem used your baby-eating pig in a blog post the other day.

/thought of you ;-)

403 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:20:08am

re: #402 littleoldlady

Well, it's not really mine, I didn't create it. But I do find it oh so adorable.

:Runs off to check Carl's site:

404 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:23:07am

re: #401 srb1976

At 1 am my daughter woke me to tell me she was going out.

/what?!? you forgot how to write a note?!

So not only am I missing several hours of sleep (there will be hell to pay later) but I got to worry on top of it.

/ginsu knives

The guilt will pass...

;-)

405 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:25:06am

re: #404 littleoldlady

Yikes!!
Some days I am very glad that all my oldest wants is a 2 wheel bicycle for his birthday (as opposed to car keys)... we've still got it pretty easy = )

406 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:26:54am

re: #405 srb1976

Yup, these are definitely the good old days for you.

Enjoy!

407 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:28:29am

re: #402 littleoldlady

Jeez, Carl is one prolific blogger. Many, many posts on the front page, and not one of them has my favorite pic of that little pig-licker.

(that link is totally SFW, but still totally NSFLoL)

408 rightside  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:29:22am

Morning Lizards.

409 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:29:37am

re: #407 Slumbering Behemoth

but still totally NSFLoL

What can I say? I have a weak stomach...

;-)

410 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:30:06am

re: #407 Slumbering Behemoth

While it may be SAFE for work...it's not allowed at work...I guess lolcats are no good for productivity anyway = )

411 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:35:35am

re: #409 littleoldlady

I honestly never had any intention of sicking you out with that photo when I first started linking. I think it's terminally cute. I promise, to the best of my ability, to add the NSFLoL tag whenever I link that, and certainly promise to never spring it on you "Rick Roll" style.

412 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:35:50am

rightside! :-)

413 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:36:50am

re: #411 Slumbering Behemoth

How surprised do you think I was when I saw it on Carl's blog?

/of all people! ;-)

I appreciate the consideration...

414 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:37:05am

re: #408 rightside

Mornin' rightside!

415 TheMatrix31  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:41:10am

re: #400 Gus 802

OT

Another Appointment in the Works for the Obama Administration

Cass R. Sunstein (1, 2) has been nominated to be the administrator for Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, or O.I.R.A. Mr. Sunstein is married to Samantha Power and is constitutional professor as well as an author of a multitude of papers and books.

One such paper includes “Standing for Animals” (3) in which he calls for an “Animal Bill of Rights” and provides several arguments for people to sue on behalf of animals to enforce existing animal cruelty and protection laws. This paper was included in the book “Animal Rights” (4) which he edited by Mr. Sunstein alongside Martha Nussbaum. “Animal Rights” also includes an essay by Peter Singer entitled, “Ethics Beyond Species and Beyond Instincts: A Response to Richard Posner.”

Cass R. Sunstein is also the author of “The Second Bill of Rights: FDR's Unfinished Revolution – And Why We Need It More Than Ever.” (5) According to Wiki (6) this is defined as an “economic bill of rights” which includes, “a job with a living wage; freedom from unfair competition and monopolies; a home; medical care; education; and recreation.” A reader of Mark Steyn points to similarities between the “second bill of rights” found in articles 40, 41, and 42 of the Constitution of the USSR. (7, 8)

1. NY Times Profile --[Link: topics.nytimes.com...]
2. Wiki Article – [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
3. “Standing for Animals” at SSRN – [Link: papers.ssrn.com...]
4. “Animal Rights” – [Link: books.google.com...]
5. “The Second Bill of Rights...” (Sunstein) – [Link: books.google.com...]
6. “Second Bill of Rights” (FDR) – [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
7. “The Second Bill of Rights” (Mark Steyn) – [Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]
8. “Constitution of the USSR” Articles 40, 41, and 42 – [Link: www.departments.bucknell.edu...]

What a freakin' joke.

416 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:44:08am

re: #413 littleoldlady

Any thing for the little young fruitcup lady. 'Nite sweetie.

G'nite Lizards.

417 rightside  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:45:10am

re: #412 littleoldlady

lol!

re: #414 srb1976

srb!

418 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:45:33am

'Night, Slumbering! :-)

/wish I was slumbering... :-(

419 Gus  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:45:57am

re: #415 TheMatrix31

What a freakin' joke.

Amazing isn't it? Well, by now it's not amazing and only a reflection of the true nature of this administration.

One right after the other.

His nomination is being held up by Senator Cornyn due to hunting rights.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

That's what caught my interest. They call him a "czar" in that article but he isn't since a "czar" isn't subject to confirmation and it's an administrative position.

420 jim in virginia  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:52:30am

Morning all.
Maimonides was so smart he was against Darwin before Darwin was born?
(Is it too late in the thread to go on topic?)

421 callahan23  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:53:24am

re: #419 Gus 802

Drive-by comment from me here.
I don't know if I shall cry, rage or hide in my shell given the current US administration.
¡hola! Gus 802 are you still up or have you had a nightfull of sleep?

422 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:54:54am

Matrix, are you still here?

What means "retweet" and how do you do it?

423 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:55:32am

{My Rove}! :-)

callahan! :-)

424 rightside  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:55:40am

re: #420 jim in virginia

Morning jim.

425 Gus  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:56:30am

re: #421 callahan23

Drive-by comment from me here.
I don't know if I shall cry, rage or hide in my shell given the current US administration.
¡hola! Gus 802 are you still up or have you had a nightfull of sleep?

Hi, Callahan. A little of both regarding the sleep. I took another nap in the evening, woke up, and had some strong coffee. Story of my life these days is that my sleep cycle is a mess.

Found some more regarding Sunstein. He has a new book out called, "On Rumors: How Falsehoods Spread, Why We Believe Them, What Can Be Done." I can't imagine what he will propose for "what can be done."

426 Gus  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:58:29am

re: #420 jim in virginia

Morning all.
Maimonides was so smart he was against Darwin before Darwin was born?
(Is it too late in the thread to go on topic?)

Howdy. Fine by me. Looks like any topic goes at this point. At this point I'm still rubbing my eyes.

427 TheMatrix31  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:59:39am

re: #422 littleoldlady

Matrix, are you still here?

What means "retweet" and how do you do it?

LOL so I'm young and you assume that I know everything about Twitter?!

I don't like that site too much, have an account but rarely use it. I think "Retweet" means to like, broadcast someone else's "tweet", and I think there's a button to do it. Not sure though.

:-/

428 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:01:01am

re: #427 TheMatrix31

LOL so I'm young and you assume that I know everything about Twitter?!

Yes!
No?
Hmmm...
;-)

429 TheMatrix31  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:01:07am

ReTweet, in the social networking and micro-blogging service Twitter, to re-post something posted by another user, usually preceeded with "RT" and "@username" to give credit to original poster

430 freetoken  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:02:13am

re: #420 jim in virginia


Maimonides was so smart he was against Darwin before Darwin was born?

It was Precognition... the Noetic floor is downstairs, btw...

431 callahan23  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:02:55am

re: #423 littleoldlady

{My Rove}! :-)

callahan! :-)

A very fine morning to you {littleoldlady}

I need to get back to work. See y'all in approximately 7-8 hrs.

432 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:04:03am

re: #429 TheMatrix31

So, I was right about you! ;-)

/no retweet button as far as I can see...
//I guess it's done manually
///they should have Charles work on their site
///I'm SO spoiled! ;-)

433 TheMatrix31  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:16:51am

re: #432 littleoldlady

So, I was right about you! ;-)

/no retweet button as far as I can see...
//I guess it's done manually
///they should have Charles work on their site
///I'm SO spoiled! ;-)

LGF > Twitter

434 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:19:24am

re: #433 TheMatrix31

Of course!

I'm just trying to learn Web 2.0 marketing...

/old dog; new tricks ;-)

435 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:26:34am

re: #434 littleoldlady

worldwide fruitcup?
Fantastic!

436 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:31:32am

re: #435 srb1976

Maybe I should change my avatar? ;-)

437 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:32:40am

re: #436 littleoldlady

Maybe I should change my avatar? ;-)

That's gorgeous!

438 littleoldlady  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:40:00am

Okay...my forehead hit the keyboard one too many times...

Good day, ALL!™

439 rightside  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 3:45:33am

re: #437 srb1976

No more redeye!

440 jim in virginia  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:07:01am

I'm back from a four mile run sweat.
It's stinking hot out there.

441 jim in virginia  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:08:32am

re: #439 rightside
Is that one of yours?
Cute.
Wait until she (he?) is fourteen.

442 rightside  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:10:53am

re: #441 jim in virginia

No, that's srb's daughter. I just fixed the redeye.

Mine are 16 and 18.

443 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:11:18am

Good morning.

The market futures are indicating that the market will open on the downside, with some profit taking happening.

I hear that the Messiah is turning to his strongest support group, the MSM, and is going to have a press conference tonight on his plan to destroy health care. You know that the White House is writing out the questions right now and deciding which disciples in the audience will be allowed to service the One.

Anticipated questions from the MSM:

1. Aren't you wonderful?
2. Just how evil are those Republicans?
3. Isn't this all Bush's fault?
4. Can't you cut defense some more to pay for this?
5. Can we shine your shoes on camera, please?
6. Isn't it unfair that some people have worked hard and succeeded, and should be punished for it?


Other questions?

444 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:13:51am

re: #443 3 wood

I wonder if he will wake up Helen Thomas or just let her sleep.

445 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:14:17am

re: #443 3 wood

Fox just ran a clip of FCBBHO during the campaign in which he said that talks with pharmaceuticals and hospitals and the like would be televised. The reality is that this has all been done behind closed doors.

446 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:15:31am

re: #443 3 wood

Good morning.

The market futures are indicating that the market will open on the downside, with some profit taking happening.

I hear that the Messiah is turning to his strongest support group, the MSM, and is going to have a press conference tonight on his plan to destroy health care. You know that the White House is writing out the questions right now and deciding which disciples in the audience will be allowed to service the One.

Anticipated questions from the MSM:

1. Aren't you wonderful?
2. Just how evil are those Republicans?
3. Isn't this all Bush's fault?
4. Can't you cut defense some more to pay for this?
5. Can we shine your shoes on camera, please?
6. Isn't it unfair that some people have worked hard and succeeded, and should be punished for it?


Other questions?

No. 7 should ask No. 1 again but in different form.

447 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:16:19am

I also wonder if it will be a suck fest where all questions are pre screened. Also, will KOS and Huffpo get to ask questions. We need a Lizard White House Correspondent. I chose Mandy.

448 Jim in Virginia  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:16:36am

re: #443 3 wood

Other questions?


"Mr. President, if you will allow me, I want to see just how far I can get my nose up your..."

449 rightside  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:16:50am

re: #446 MandyManners

Just how cool are you?

450 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:18:03am

re: #447 Cannadian Club Akbar

I also wonder if it will be a suck fest where all questions are pre screened. Also, will KOS and Huffpo get to ask questions. We need a Lizard White House Correspondent. I chose Mandy.

Mandy, that was written before I knew you were here.

451 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:20:11am

Now that the Discoveroids have Maimonides as well as Thomas Jefferson rooting for them, who else is there that they can dig up as an authority? Wait ... I've got it -- Julius Caesar! Makes no sense? No problem. He's the next to be quoted in Seattle. Watch for it.

452 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:21:40am

Pelosi is running her yap again. The picture of her is hideous:

Pelosi on health: Overhaul is closer


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Tuesday she is confident Congress will advance an overhaul of the nation's health care system despite divisions within her own party and mounting opposition from outside groups over its cost.
As House and Senate lawmakers wrestle with how to pay the price of covering the nation's 46 million uninsured — more than $1 trillion in the first decade — the California Democrat told USA TODAY's editorial board that the best approach is to rely on savings rather than taxes.

"There's, I believe, more to be squeezed out," Pelosi said, adding that Democrats hope to bring down the costs of the bill. "Many members think that there's more to be squeezed from hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and docs."


Look at the mind set here. The Democrats see hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and doctors (and I presume nurses) as items to be "squeezed".

These people work for us (theoretically) and they see health care providers as targets to be "squeezed". This is what we are dealing with.

453 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:22:00am

re: #447 Cannadian Club Akbar

I also wonder if it will be a suck fest where all questions are pre screened. Also, will KOS and Huffpo get to ask questions. We need a Lizard White House Correspondent. I chose Mandy.

I don't know if I could fawn well enough to be granted admission. If so, then my guffaws and snorts likely would get me booted out. A sure-fire offense would be refering to him as "Fucking Commie Bastard" instead of "Mr. President".

But, thanks for thinking of me!

454 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:22:03am

re: #448 Jim in Virginia

That's a good one.

455 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:22:18am

This the overnight open? I've been waiting for the overnight open. Sun's up, what's up?

456 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:22:45am

re: #449 rightside

Just how cool are you?

Isn't yours the most transparent administration ever?

457 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:23:06am

re: #450 Cannadian Club Akbar

Mandy, that was written before I knew you were here.

8-)

458 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:23:14am

re: #444 Cannadian Club Akbar

I wonder if he will wake up Helen Thomas or just let her sleep.


I'm sure she got her phone call last night telling her what to ask.

459 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:23:24am

I would say let's make a drinking game for every "um" and "oh" President Hopeandchange says, but we would all be dead.

460 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:25:01am

re: #447 Cannadian Club Akbar

I also wonder if it will be a suck fest where all questions are pre screened.


Yes, they call the reporters the night before and work out who will be called on.

461 Truck Monkey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:29:33am

re: #443 3 wood

Isn't this "reform" aimed at those that don't have insurance right now? Why do they have to take away or tax the crap out of my insurance plan so that others might have insurance? I have never yet heard of someone turned away from getting care because they are not insured. This whole thing is just a clusterfark.

462 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:29:50am

re: #452 3 wood

They could be squeezed a bit. Since a hospital administrator makes 20x the amount of a lady in housekeeping, and many doctors make more than a hospital administrator, an LPN makes more than an RN, and a pharmacist makes more than a guy in maintenance... a lot of money could be saved simply by inserting "fairness" into the mix.

463 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:30:36am

My local news radio has a nirther on and they are grilling him. Dude says um and uh more that Zero.

464 Truck Monkey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:30:42am

re: #459 Cannadian Club Akbar

I would say let's make a drinking game for every "um" and "oh" President Hopeandchange says, but we would all be dead.

That would definately be "hi Bob" on steroids.

465 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:34:03am

re: #464 Truck Monkey

That would definately be "hi Bob" on steroids main-lined methamphetamine.

466 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:35:28am

Boy, did Berannke sell Congress a pile of BS the other day. Those morons don't know their hat from third base when it comes to economics:
Fed Aims to Hold Down Interest Rates


The economy is finally improving, but enough potholes lie ahead that the Federal Reserve needs to keep interest rates close to zero, at least until unemployment begins to come down, the Fed’s chairman, Ben S. Bernanke, told Congress on Tuesday.

“On net, the past few months have seen some notable improvements,” Mr. Bernanke said in his semiannual report to the House Financial Services Committee. The pace will pick up next year and accelerate in 2011, he said, but unemployment will remain high, damping down inflation for two more years.

“Job insecurity, together with home values and tight credit, is likely to limit gains in consumer spending,” he said, noting that the unemployment rate has continued to rise steeply. If that were to continue, the current gradual recovery could “prove transient.”


Translation: Things are really screwed up and don't blame me..

The problem with Mr. Barnanke's idea of keeping interest rates low is the massive debt that Obama is generating. To finance that debt we have to sell massive amounts of treasuries, and that will require high interest rates.

Really, what Bernanke is doing is saying "The coming high interest rates ae not my fault."

467 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:36:12am

re: #439 rightside

No more redeye!

Thanks rightside...nice work!!

Sorry about the delay, I was commuting...now I'm home = )

468 TheMatrix31  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:36:50am

re: #459 Cannadian Club Akbar

I would say let's make a drinking game for every "um" and "oh" President Hopeandchange says, but we would all be dead.

But with government healthcare, they'll just bring us back from the dead! And if that fails, well, we can all spend eternity voting in Illinois!

re: #453 MandyManners

I don't know if I could fawn well enough to be granted admission. If so, then my guffaws and snorts likely would get me booted out. A sure-fire offense would be refering to him as "Fucking Commie Bastard" instead of "Mr. President".

But, thanks for thinking of me!

For the last six months, I often find myself putting quotes around the word President. I figure it's the most respectful way to disrespect him.

469 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:37:12am

re: #461 Truck Monkey

Isn't this "reform" aimed at those that don't have insurance right now? Why do they have to take away or tax the crap out of my insurance plan so that others might have insurance? I have never yet heard of someone turned away from getting care because they are not insured. This whole thing is just a clusterfark.

Cause:

1. This group thinks they are supposed to run your life.
2. They want to destroy private insurance.
3. They want you dependent on the government.

470 rightside  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:38:12am

re: #467 srb1976

No problem.

471 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:38:28am

re: #462 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They could be squeezed a bit. Since a hospital administrator makes 20x the amount of a lady in housekeeping, and many doctors make more than a hospital administrator, an LPN makes more than an RN, and a pharmacist makes more than a guy in maintenance... a lot of money could be saved simply by inserting "fairness" into the mix.

So you want Pelosi doing that?

How's about she decides to squeeze you, how do you feel about it then?

472 Mithrax  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:39:14am

re: #471 3 wood

So you want Pelosi doing that?

How's about she decides to squeeze you, how do you feel about it then?

Depends on where she squeezes me ;)

/sarc

473 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:39:35am

Got to get ready for work. Later.

474 rightside  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:39:37am

re: #469 3 wood

Cause:

1. This group thinks they are supposed to run your life.
2. They want to destroy private insurance.
3. They want you dependent on the government.

That is the most onerous of them all. Sucking the life out of a human being for your political/financial gain. Disgusting.

475 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:42:11am

re: #468 TheMatrix31

For the last six months, I often find myself putting quotes around the word President. I figure it's the most respectful way to disrespect him.

Some could argue that that would disrespect the office of the presidency.

Me? I'll just keep on refering to him as FCBBHO.

476 Truck Monkey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:43:03am

re: #472 Mithrax

Depends on where she squeezes me ;)

/sarc

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

477 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:45:47am

re: #472 Mithrax

Depends on where she squeezes me ;)

/sarc


Don't worry, she wants your "boys" in a vice.

478 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:45:55am

re: #474 rightside

That is the most onerous of them all. Sucking the life out of a human being for your political/financial gain. Disgusting.

It's been a slow but sure process for awhile now...it's only getting worse, self-reliance doesn't count for much anymore

479 Mithrax  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:46:11am

re: #477 Cannadian Club Akbar

Don't worry, she wants your "boys" in a vice.

I'm engaged, it's already happened :P

/sarc

480 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:47:42am

re: #479 Mithrax

I'm engaged, it's already happened :P

/sarc

Oh...they're supposed to go in a vice?

/All these years I thought they were supposed to go in the purse
= )

481 TheMatrix31  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:48:43am

re: #475 MandyManners

Some could argue that that would disrespect the office of the presidency.

Me? I'll just keep on refering to him as FCBBHO.

It could...but so does he.

482 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:49:06am

re: #479 Mithrax

I'm engaged, it's already happened :P

/sarc

As long as you remeber you were wrong, everything will be OK.

483 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:49:11am

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DON!

Youtube Video
484 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:49:37am

re: #477 Cannadian Club Akbar

Don't worry, she wants your "boys" in a vice.

*snort*

485 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:51:29am

re: #482 Cannadian Club Akbar

As long as you remeber you were wrong, everything will be OK.

That's right...only 6 words anyone (man or woman) needs to know...
"Yes, dear...you're right...I'm sorry"
= )

486 yochanan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:53:40am

Image: File:Bobdobbs.png
the old church of the sub genius

487 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:53:53am

re: #480 srb1976

Oh...they're supposed to go in a vice?

/All these years I thought they were supposed to go in the purse
= )

Or, over a fire place.

488 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:54:32am

re: #481 TheMatrix31

It could...but so does he.

I miss Pres. Bush.

489 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:55:27am

re: #485 srb1976

That's right...only 6 words anyone (man or woman) needs to know...
"Yes, dear...you're right...I'm sorry"
= )

What's the correct answer to "Honey, does this make my butt look big?"

490 Mithrax  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:57:18am

re: #489 MandyManners

What's the correct answer to "Honey, does this make my butt look big?"

"Not at all, why do you ask?"

491 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:57:27am

re: #489 MandyManners

What's the correct answer to "Honey, does this make my butt look big?"

"No, honey, it makes you look beautiful." "And honey, have you seen my rope?"

492 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:57:27am

re: #471 3 wood

Oh dear Lord, you didn't see the sarcasm? I meant it with so much sarcasm I didn't even see the need for a sarc tag! Good Morning Wood!!

Please don't tell me you think I meant that!?!?

493 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:57:27am

Gaffney's on Fox talking about Hizb ut-Tahrir.

494 TheMatrix31  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:57:37am

re: #488 MandyManners

I miss Pres. Bush.

**sigh**

495 yochanan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:57:53am

re: #488 MandyManners

at least the scumbags of the world feared President Bush.
with the zero there is no fear at all.

496 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:58:18am

re: #490 Mithrax

"Not at all, why do you ask?"

re: #491 Cannadian Club Akbar

"No, honey, it makes you look beautiful." "And honey, have you seen my rope?"

"Big? Nothing could make your butt look big."

497 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:59:04am

re: #489 MandyManners

What's the correct answer to "Honey, does this make my butt look big?"

the best dodge I've ever heard was
"Honey, you look great, now let's go"
I, myself, never ask loaded questions like that = )

498 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 4:59:09am

re: #495 yochanan

at least the scumbags of the world feared President Bush.
with the zero there is no fear at all.

When did Hizb ut-Tahrir make the reservations at the Hilton in Chicago for their conference last weekend?

499 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:00:05am

re: #497 srb1976

the best dodge I've ever heard was
"Honey, you look great, now let's go"
I, myself, never ask loaded questions like that = )

Aw, what a woman!

500 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:01:49am

re: #496 MandyManners

"Big? Nothing could make your butt look big; Big? That just isn't the word."

See that makes it more honest and open. Women like that in a relationship.
/

501 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:02:36am

re: #495 yochanan

He scares the shit out of me, though.

502 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:03:39am

re: #500 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Have you been watching John Bolton?

503 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:05:03am

Good morning all. Any good meltdowns with this thread?

504 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:05:10am

Greetings citizens. Tonight our Dear Leader, Comrade Obama takes to the airways to explain glorious new heathcare rationing plan.
He will explain how the reactgionary, counter revolutionary Republicans & disloyal members of his own peoples party try to thwart him.
To the barricades!

505 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:05:29am

re: #489 MandyManners

What's the correct answer to "Honey, does this make my butt look big?"

How about "Shut up and get your sexy ass over here."?

506 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:07:09am

Fox is playing that conference call in which FCBBHO claimed he didn't know if private health insurance would be illegal.

507 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:07:32am

re: #505 Spare O'Lake

How about "Shut up and get your sexy ass over here."?

I think we have a winner!

508 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:07:38am

re: #489 MandyManners

What's the correct answer to "Honey, does this make my butt look big?"

I'm convinced most men have no clue how to answer that kind of a question, because they have no clue what honey means when she asks it.

509 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:09:10am

re: #506 MandyManners

Fox is playing that conference call in which FCBBHO claimed he didn't know if private health insurance would be illegal.

He doesn't even know all of the key provisions, but tonight he will tell us how good it is for us. Did all of the networks give him time?

510 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:09:35am

Yesterday someone posted a link in which illegals are counted as citizens not having health insurance.

511 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:10:03am

re: #507 MandyManners

I think we have a winner!

That was cool.

I liked (I think it was Robin Harris) the comedian who said, "Naw, baby. It's your hips that make your butt look so big. Dress don't make no damn diffr'ence!"

512 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:10:07am

re: #508 reine.de.tout

I'm convinced most men have no clue how to answer that kind of a question, because they have no clue what honey means when she asks it.

I like No. 505 the most.

513 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:10:20am

re: #508 reine.de.tout

I'm convinced most men have no clue how to answer that kind of a question, because they have no clue what honey means when she asks it.

True, but that is because when a guy hears the word "honey" he just shuts down because there is a 100% chance he'll be wrong.

514 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:10:31am

re: #508 reine.de.tout

I'm convinced most men have no clue how to answer that kind of a question, because they have no clue what honey means when she asks it.

*DING* We have a winner. To most guys that's just a loaded question, and sometimes no matter how you answer it's the wrong way. I have responded on occassion with, "Never, ever, ask me a question like that again." My problem is that I sometimes let the truth out. :)

/at times I am a lonely man. :D

515 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:11:10am

I'm going to be in meetings all day (booo!)... If y'all see Wood, make sure you tell him I was being sarcastic. I think he thinks I was serious.

516 TheMatrix31  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:11:44am

re: #509 opnion

He doesn't even know all of the key provisions, but tonight he will tell us how good it is for us. Did all of the networks give him time?

The only thing people should be giving him is the finger.

517 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:11:56am

re: #512 MandyManners

I like No. 505 the most.

I liked it a lot, too.
It's what the Roi would say.

518 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:12:06am

re: #509 opnion

He doesn't even know all of the key provisions, but tonight he will tell us how good it is for us. Did all of the networks give him time?

I just checked my ISP's television schedule. All networks are carrying it.

519 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:12:18am

re: #513 Cannadian Club Akbar

True, but that is because when a guy hears the word "honey" he just shuts down because there is a 100% chance he'll be wrong.

"It was a woman that drove me to drink. I haven't found her because I'd like to thank her."

/paraphrase of W.C. Fields I think.

520 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:12:47am

re: #511 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That was cool.

I liked (I think it was Robin Harris) the comedian who said, "Naw, baby. It's your hips that make your butt look so big. Dress don't make no damn diffr'ence!"

I wonder if he's married.

521 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:13:32am

re: #514 BlueCanuck

*DING* We have a winner. To most guys that's just a loaded question, and sometimes no matter how you answer it's the wrong way. I have responded on occassion with, "Never, ever, ask me a question like that again." My problem is that I sometimes let the truth out. :)

/at times I am a lonely man. :D

{blue canuck}

I have a suspicion that what men actually find attractive, and what women think men find attractive, are two very very different things.

522 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:13:41am

re: #518 MandyManners

I just checked my ISP's television schedule. All networks are carrying it.

Damn!

523 yochanan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:13:57am

re: #489 MandyManners

well how many zip codes is it in now?

524 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:14:37am

re: #518 MandyManners

I just checked my ISP's television schedule. All networks are carrying it.

Glad I have cable.

525 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:15:06am

re: #519 BlueCanuck

"It was a woman that drove me to drink. I haven't found her because I'd like to thank her."

/paraphrase of W.C. Fields I think.

Ironic:
You mother in law going over a cliff in your brand new Cadillac.

526 1SG(ret)  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:15:51am

I'm late to the thread, and it may have been said. A question I'd like the "0" asked is this:

If this plan is passed will all in the Gov be forced into the same system as the regular folks, and if so wouldn't many in congress be denied some services because of their advanced age?

527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:16:00am

re: #520 MandyManners

I wonder if he's married.

Nope. He's dead.

Had one that you'll like...

"I wear my wedding ring on my right hand, cause I married the wrong damn woman!"

528 SixDegrees  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:16:50am

re: #466 3 wood

Boy, did Berannke sell Congress a pile of BS the other day. Those morons don't know their hat from third base when it comes to economics:
Fed Aims to Hold Down Interest Rates

An alternative translation: "I'm not worried about raising rates, because the economy looks like it's going to be in the dumper as far as anyone is able to see."


Translation: Things are really screwed up and don't blame me..

The problem with Mr. Barnanke's idea of keeping interest rates low is the massive debt that Obama is generating. To finance that debt we have to sell massive amounts of treasuries, and that will require high interest rates.

Really, what Bernanke is doing is saying "The coming high interest rates ae not my fault."

529 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:17:01am

re: #521 reine.de.tout

{blue canuck}

I have a suspicion that what men actually find attractive, and what women think men find attractive, are two very very different things.

That's funny...better half once pointed out to me the difference between clothing models and underwear models (I had never noticed) and mentioned that clothing is marketed to women, but underwear modles are trying to get men's attention...not sure how valid the point is, but there is definitley a difference = )

530 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:17:07am

re: #510 MandyManners

Yesterday someone posted a link in which illegals are counted as citizens not having health insurance.

Why would illegals need health insurance - they already get free health care at most community hospitals and many community clinics.

MSNBC Video
531 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:17:27am

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, AL!

Youtube Video
532 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:17:55am

re: #522 opnion

Don't they lose money doing this?

533 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:18:34am

re: #523 yochanan

well how many zip codes is it in now?

Oh, you're both funny and terrible.

534 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:19:14am

re: #521 reine.de.tout

I talk first and sometimes go from there. Got sidelined by too many air heads. Of course theirs my personal check of someone's book shelf. :)

/nothing to worry about, just looking for a few "clues" that I should run away real fast.

535 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:19:48am

re: #524 midwestgak

Glad I have cable.

I wonder if someone in the FCBBHO Administration has tried to get (non-nwes) cable channels to carry his blather.

536 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:20:08am

re: #532 MandyManners

Don't they lose money doing this?

I believe that they do lose advertising revenue.

537 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:20:33am

re: #534 BlueCanuck

I talk first and sometimes go from there. Got sidelined by too many air heads. Of course theirs my personal check of someone's book shelf. :)

/nothing to worry about, just looking for a few "clues" that I should run away real fast.

Do tell...looking for specific volumes, genres, or a general lack?

538 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:20:56am

re: #526 1SG(ret)

I'm late to the thread, and it may have been said. A question I'd like the "0" asked is this:

If this plan is passed will all in the Gov be forced into the same system as the regular folks, and if so wouldn't many in congress be denied some services because of their advanced age?

That is a very good question. I doubt a reporter would be allowed to ask it. They're getting their questions told to them today.

539 yochanan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:21:16am

re: #533 MandyManners

mucho hamos for dos hovous
that is if i still have dos

540 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:21:30am

re: #527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nope. He's dead.

Had one that you'll like...

"I wear my wedding ring on my right hand, cause I married the wrong damn woman!"

How did he die?

541 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:21:38am

re: #534 BlueCanuck

I talk first and sometimes go from there. Got sidelined by too many air heads. Of course theirs my personal check of someone's book shelf. :)

/nothing to worry about, just looking for a few "clues" that I should run away real fast.

Sylvia Plathe book, bottle of vodka and some valium?

542 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:22:42am

re: #530 Spare O'Lake

Why would illegals need health insurance - they already get free health care at most community hospitals and many community clinics.
[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

I suspect that they're included as a way to pump up the numbers.

543 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:23:38am

re: #536 opnion

I believe that they do lose advertising revenue.

Other than staying in good graces with FCBBHO, what's the pay-off?

544 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:25:08am

Just got to share this with you. A man & a woman were arguing about Obamas healthcare reform initiative on the train.
He is opposed & she just loves Obama & said that crticising his plan is like making fun of the mom jeans that he wore at the All Star Game.
Can't make it up.

545 1SG(ret)  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:26:07am

re: #538 MandyManners

I know! It is the question I sent to every congressman/senator in my state. Only one has responded though! Mitch! His answer was probably not!

546 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:26:27am

re: #543 MandyManners

Other than staying in good graces with FCBBHO, what's the pay-off?


They just want to shill for him. Bush never got this kind of free air time.
I remember him getting turned down flat.

547 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:26:27am
548 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:27:55am

re: #537 srb1976

Do tell...looking for specific volumes, genres, or a general lack?

re: #541 Cannadian Club Akbar

Sylvia Plathe book, bottle of vodka and some valium?

Key books to look for. Self help books on personality, psychology text books while never having gone to university or taken any courses that involve that. Lack of any fiction type in any genre...

/The list may be expanded, but that is it in a nutshell.

549 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:28:57am

Good morning Lizards. 11 days and counting. I trust everyone is well.

550 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:29:18am

Good morning Erik, sleeping better?

551 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:29:41am

re: #549 Erik The Red

Good morning Lizards. 11 days and counting. I trust everyone is well.

Good morning Erik!

11 days and counting until what? I've obviously missed something.

552 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:30:37am

Senator: Democrats "baffled" by president's health care stance

WASHINGTON (CNN) – As the prospects for passing health reform by the time Congress leaves for its August recess look bleaker, Democratic grumbling about President Obama is growing louder. One Democratic senator tells CNN congressional Democrats are “baffled,” and another senior Democratic source tells CNN members of the president’s own party are still “frustrated” that they’re not getting more specific direction from him on health care. “We appreciate the rhetoric and his willingness to ratchet up the pressure but what most Democrats on the Hill are looking for is for the president to weigh in and make decisions on outstanding issues. Instead of sending out his people and saying the president isn’t ruling anything out, members would like a little bit of clarity on what he would support – especially on how to pay for his health reform bill,” a senior Democratic congressional source tells CNN. The Democratic leadership had hoped the work going on behind closed doors for months could bear fruit in time for the president’s news conference Wednesday night. But multiple Democratic sources tell CNN that’s looking very unlikely, and one senior Democratic source tells CNN there is some frustration among Democratic leaders that Senate negotiators have, "repeatedly missed deadlines."

[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]

Are they going to have the balls to buck up and save their political asses, or are they going to fall in line with the president?

I suspect that the Obama administrations has a nice little hit list of liberal politicians that don't want to toe his line.

Careful.

553 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:31:02am

re: #549 Erik The Red

Good morning Lizards. 11 days and counting. I trust everyone is well.

To what?

554 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:31:41am

re: #521 reine.de.tout

{blue canuck}

I have a suspicion that what men actually find attractive, and what women think men find attractive, are two very very different things.

Woman want to be made to feel sexy.
Men, on the other hand, would rather skip the feelings part and immediately engage in various sex acts.
Sex owns us.

555 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:32:28am
556 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:32:37am

re: #552 Walter L. Newton

Senator: Democrats "baffled" by president's health care stance

WASHINGTON (CNN) – As the prospects for passing health reform by the time Congress leaves for its August recess look bleaker, Democratic grumbling about President Obama is growing louder. One Democratic senator tells CNN congressional Democrats are “baffled,” and another senior Democratic source tells CNN members of the president’s own party are still “frustrated” that they’re not getting more specific direction from him on health care. . . .

The issue is no longer about health "care", it's about health "insurance".
I wish they would just own up to that and quite using the health "care" phrasing.

557 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:32:47am

re: #554 Spare O'Lake

When we become teenagers, we become a raging bag of hormones. Nothing really changes about that until we are put into the ground. :)

558 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:33:24am

re: #550 BlueCanuck

Good morning Erik, sleeping better?

re: #551 reine.de.tout

Good morning Erik!

11 days and counting until what? I've obviously missed something.

Hey Blue. Not really.
Morning reine. 11 days until my family gets here. Sorry I phrased that badly. Need more coffee. :)

Also it has been 21 days since my last smoke.

559 CIA Reject  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:33:54am

re: #544 opnion

Just got to share this with you. A man & a woman were arguing about Obamas healthcare reform initiative on the train.
He is opposed & she just loves Obama & said that crticising his plan is like making fun of the mom jeans that he wore at the All Star Game.
Can't make it up.

"Mom jeans"? Do they turn into "Wow" jeans if he stands on his head? I guess I need a remedial course in modern fashion...

Anyway it occurred to me this morning while I was feeding the cat that the prez' polls will probably start to reflect a phenomenon where his policies continually lose popularity while he holds popularity. I suspect this is because people will rightly express dissatisfaction with his policies but will be reluctant to express any dissatisfaction with him personally for fear of being branded a RACIST!

/Good Morning All!

560 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:34:53am

re: #556 reine.de.tout

The issue is no longer about health "care", it's about health "insurance".
I wish they would just own up to that and quite using the health "care" phrasing.

I wish they would just call a shovel a shovel (politically correct alternative phrase) and name it SHS. Socialized Health Service.

561 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:35:21am

re: #554 Spare O'Lake

Woman want to be made to feel sexy.
Men, on the other hand, would rather skip the feelings part and immediately engage in various sex acts.
Sex owns us.

funny!
But not entirely true, I think.
Men also desperately want us to be happy with them. I sometimes think the biggest gift I can give the Roi is to simply be happy with him. Whereas I, of course, want stuff.

562 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:35:37am

re: #558 Erik The Red

Hey Blue. Not really.
Morning reine. 11 days until my family gets here. Sorry I phrased that badly. Need more coffee. :)

Also it has been 21 days since my last smoke.

Good, good, good... on Aug. 16th, it will be a year since my last smoke. Keep it up.

563 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:36:06am

re: #559 CIA Reject

"Mom jeans"? Do they turn into "Wow" jeans if he stands on his head? I guess I need a remedial course in modern fashion...

Anyway it occurred to me this morning while I was feeding the cat that the prez' polls will probably start to reflect a phenomenon where his policies continually lose popularity while he holds popularity. I suspect this is because people will rightly express dissatisfaction with his policies but will be reluctant to express any dissatisfaction with him personally for fear of being branded a RACIST!

/Good Morning All!

The race issue looms large, the media won't leave it alone.
If it's needed Obama will use it, just like he did in the campaign.

564 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:36:33am

re: #558 Erik The Red

Hey Blue. Not really.
Morning reine. 11 days until my family gets here. Sorry I phrased that badly. Need more coffee. :)

Also it has been 21 days since my last smoke.

OH!
Mystery solved.
I think when your family gets here, you will begin to sleep better, no?
You must miss them.

565 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:37:01am

re: #562 Walter L. Newton

Good, good, good... on Aug. 16th, it will be a year since my last smoke. Keep it up.

You people are robbing the tax base./

566 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:37:24am

re: #565 midwestgak

You people are robbing the tax base./

I'm making up for it.

567 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:37:34am

re: #564 reine.de.tout

OH!
Mystery solved.
I think when your family gets here, you will begin to sleep better, no?
You must miss them.

I do miss them VERY MUCH. I also think my sleeping problem will be solved.

568 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:38:20am

re: #566 reine.de.tout

I'm making up for it.

You smoke two packs a day?/

569 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:38:44am

re: #545 1SG(ret)

I know! It is the question I sent to every congressman/senator in my state. Only one has responded though! Mitch! His answer was probably not!

If every citizen following this debate knew that, it would turn the tide.

570 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:38:49am

re: #568 midwestgak

You smoke two packs a day?/

(shh)
I light 2 packs a day.
I don't actually smoke 'em all.

571 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:39:20am

re: #546 opnion

They just want to shill for him. Bush never got this kind of free air time.
I remember him getting turned down flat.

I vaguely recall that, too. What did he want to talk about?

572 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:40:30am

GAK - how's the employment situation?

573 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:41:21am

re: #561 reine.de.tout


Men also desperately want us to be happy with them. I sometimes think the biggest gift I can give the Roi is to simply be happy with him.

Of course we all want approval and appreciation from our partners, but I do think many women underestimate how much men need female approval and female admiration. It's convenient to say that men are all about the sex, and that's somewhat true, but many of them are equally driven by the need to feel that a woman admires them.

Like all other generalisations, I'm aware this one is flawed too. :)

574 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:41:21am

re: #565 midwestgak

You people are robbing the tax base./

And the government won't find some other way to pry the pennies from my fingers. Get real.

By the way, 50 degrees here at the Secret Mountain Lair at 8000 feet in the Rocky Mountains. Clear skies.

575 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:41:46am

re: #561 reine.de.tout

funny!
But not entirely true, I think.
Men also desperately want us to be happy with them. I sometimes think the biggest gift I can give the Roi is to simply be happy with him. Whereas I, of course, want stuff.

Very true that men want women to be happy with them.
Of course in the male mind, his partner's happiness will hopfully lead to immediate and various sex acts.
And so it goes...

576 yochanan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:41:47am

re: #560 Walter L. Newton

you mean you can't use the word 'spade' anymore who knew. how about skillet or stove pipe?

577 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:41:50am

re: #571 MandyManners

I vaguely recall that, too. What did he want to talk about?

Actually I can't recall, but I do remember the netorks turning him down

578 CIA Reject  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:42:54am

re: #563 opnion

The race issue looms large, the media won't leave it alone.
If it's needed Obama will use it, just like he did in the campaign.

Yup! And it boggles my little mind how we have allowed ourselves in a single generation to be transformed from a people who valued self-reliance, hated war, and followed their consciences to a people who clamor for government hand-outs, fear war, and will (G*d forbid) re-elect a President who is doing things they don't want done simply to avoid being called a name. (RACIST!)

I think the veterans of the KGB active measures division must be bursting with pride these days...

579 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:43:03am

Fox again ran the tape of FCBBHO saying he didn't know if private insurance would be illegal.

If it were before my mom went into the hospital over a month ago, she'd be dead because the doctors would have had instructions to "ration" her care.

580 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:43:18am

re: #576 yochanan

you mean you can't use the word 'spade' anymore who knew. how about skillet or stove pipe?

Racist!
/

581 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:43:55am

re: #577 opnion

Actually I can't recall, but I do remember the netorks turning him down

I seem to recall that it was during the beginning of The Surge.

582 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:44:00am

re: #570 reine.de.tout

(shh)
I light 2 packs a day.
I don't actually smoke 'em all.

Obamacare loves you.

/

583 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:44:55am

re: #576 yochanan
Hey! "Just calling a Shovel a Shovel"
Your right! That just sounds stupid!
Goodmorning all!
What? No over night open thread??

584 yochanan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:45:11am

re: #580 Walter L. Newton

what about the card game 'spades'?

585 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:45:23am

Oh, goodness, Fox is running it AGAIN!

For all its problems with putting Alex Jones on its Internet coverage, Fox is still the best MFM outlet.

586 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:46:06am

re: #479 Mithrax

I'm engaged, it's already happened :P

Just get used to saying:

You're right Dear...

I'm sorry, Dear...

It's my fault, Dear...

587 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:46:26am

re: #584 yochanan

what about the card game 'spades'?

You see any non-whites on those cards? Hmmm?

/

588 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:46:34am

re: #578 CIA Reject

Yup! And it boggles my little mind how we have allowed ourselves in a single generation to be transformed from a people who valued self-reliance, hated war, and followed their consciences to a people who clamor for government hand-outs, fear war, and will (G*d forbid) re-elect a President who is doing things they don't want done simply to avoid being called a name. (RACIST!)

I think the veterans of the KGB active measures division must be bursting with pride these days...

I have seen no data to prove this, but I think that Obama has set race relations back.
He is not judged on merit, buy widely as being the first African American President.
Putting a chill on criticism breeds hostility, so I say criticise him.
Why dissent is the highest for of patriotsm, right? Speak truth to power,blah, blah, blah.

589 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:46:58am

Peter Johnson, Jr., says private insurance will still be allowed but the mechanisms of the law will push it out.

590 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:47:18am

re: #581 MandyManners

I seem to recall that it was during the beginning of The Surge.

That does sound right.

591 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:47:25am

re: #573 iceweasel

Of course we all want approval and appreciation from our partners, but I do think many women underestimate how much men need female approval and female admiration. It's convenient to say that men are all about the sex, and that's somewhat true, but many of them are equally driven by the need to feel that a woman admires them.

Like all other generalisations, I'm aware this one is flawed too. :)

I agree with that. And that is where many of us fail our partners, I think - we focus on what we want that we don't have, instead of fully appreciating what we do have.

My husband works offshore 2 weeks at a time. When he would call, I would go into all the stories about what was going wrong - the sick kid, the toilet overflowing etc. - until finally one day he just told me how he felt so guilty that he wasn't at home to help me out. I started trying then to just tell him the upbeat things, rather than focusing on the troubles - there was nothing he can do from the middle of the Gulf of Mexico, and it just stressed him out to hear about the problems.

592 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:47:43am

re: #586 3 wood

Just get used to saying:

You're right Dear...

I'm sorry, Dear...

It's my fault, Dear...

Oh noes ... Mithrax! ... dig a hole and jump in, boy!

/

593 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:47:44am

re: #584 yochanan

what about the card game 'spades'?

Yoc, I was just being mildly humorous. Stop beating it to death.

594 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:48:10am

re: #590 opnion

That does sound right.

I'm gonna' Google. bbiab

595 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:48:25am

re: #572 reine.de.tout

GAK - how's the employment situation?

Stagnant. Unemployment pays me more than than the jobs available pay. I have no incentive. Furthermore, a lady at the Cook County President's Office of Employment Training "encouraged" me by saying they could find me work like they did for her. Parttime at minimum wage.

Eventually, I'll have to settle for whatever I can find, but until then, unemployment makes more sense.

596 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:49:22am

re: #575 Spare O'Lake

Very true that men want women to be happy with them.
Of course in the male mind, his partner's happiness will hopfully lead to immediate and various sex acts.
And so it goes...

ROFL!
You are so funny.
And accurate, I'm sure.

597 yochanan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:49:23am

re: #593 Walter L. Newton

is that horse dead yet?

598 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:49:48am

re: #492 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh dear Lord, you didn't see the sarcasm? I meant it with so much sarcasm I didn't even see the need for a sarc tag! Good Morning Wood!!

Please don't tell me you think I meant that!?!?


My humble apologies many times over, Sir.

I was in a rush to head out the door.

I thought you had been taken over by aliens, was stoned, or maybe lost your mind.

599 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:50:10am

re: #595 midwestgak

Stagnant. Unemployment pays me more than than the jobs available pay. I have no incentive. Furthermore, a lady at the Cook County President's Office of Employment Training "encouraged" me by saying they could find me work like they did for her. Parttime at minimum wage.

Eventually, I'll have to settle for whatever I can find, but until then, unemployment makes more sense.

{gak}

So sorry, but it sounds like you're hanging in there.

600 yochanan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:50:12am

re: #596 reine.de.tout

what is a sex act

is that were the wifie is faking a big 'o' so it is all an act?

601 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:50:23am

re: #593 Walter L. Newton

Yoc, I was just being mildly humorous. Stop beating it to death.

A couple of posts is "beating it to death"?

Holy shite, Batman, what are we going to call trying to get an answer out of a***i?

/

602 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:50:36am

re: #594 MandyManners

I'm gonna' Google. bbiab

Maybe I'm not using the correct search terms but, I've found zip.

603 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:51:30am

re: #595 midwestgak
I hope all the little chores around the house are done!!
Mrs.Loader has a list that never seems to shrink!
If I took a two week vacation she would expect a 1200 sq ft
addition nearly finished!
Gak!!

604 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:51:44am

re: #488 MandyManners

I miss Pres. Bush.

I have an old t-shirt I bought when Slick Willie was CIC. It had a picture of Reagan and it said "Remember when we had a real President?"

I got it out and have been wearing it again.

605 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:51:47am

re: #591 reine.de.tout

I only regret that I can only ding this once! I know that it means a great deal to better half to be told how important he is, and not just to me, but to the kids as well...

606 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:53:00am

re: #604 3 wood

I have an old t-shirt I bought when Slick Willie was CIC. It had a picture of Reagan and it said "Remember when we had a real President?"

I got it out and have been wearing it again.

I had one during the 90s that said, "DON'T BLAME ME--I VOTED FOR BUSH". I wore it until it was in tatters.

607 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:53:20am

re: #591 reine.de.tout

I agree with that. And that is where many of us fail our partners, I think - we focus on what we want that we don't have, instead of fully appreciating what we do have.

My husband works offshore 2 weeks at a time. When he would call, I would go into all the stories about what was going wrong - the sick kid, the toilet overflowing etc. - until finally one day he just told me how he felt so guilty that he wasn't at home to help me out. I started trying then to just tell him the upbeat things, rather than focusing on the troubles - there was nothing he can do from the middle of the Gulf of Mexico, and it just stressed him out to hear about the problems.

That sort of situation has to be especially hard on both partners, I would think. Not only because you obviously miss each other, but the frustration of not having your partner there to help you/not being there to help your partner. Major kudos to you both.

I think that happens on a smaller scale in many relationships and many people aren't as good at dealing with it as you two are.. The day to day frustrations can make it too easy to concentrate on what you don't have, rather than what you do. Maybe it's also partly human nature to do that too.

608 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:53:39am

BBIAB got to walk the 3 dogs.

609 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:53:41am

re: #600 yochanan

what is a sex act

is that were the wifie is faking a big 'o' so it is all an act?

I'm not sure.
You have to ask Spare O'Lake.
That's what he keeps bringing up, all attempts to deflect the conversation have failed.

610 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:53:59am

re: #602 MandyManners

Maybe I'm not using the correct search terms but, I've found zip.

What words are you using?

611 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:54:49am

re: #605 srb1976

I only regret that I can only ding this once! I know that it means a great deal to better half to be told how important he is, and not just to me, but to the kids as well...

Definitely.

612 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:54:55am

re: #599 reine.de.tout

{gak}

So sorry, but it sounds like you're hanging in there.

Yes I am. The way things worked out, severance and unemployment, I was able to pay off all my credit card debt. Big load off my monthly financial situation.

613 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:55:05am

re: #609 reine.de.tout

It's a guy thing most of us have a two tracked mind. Sex, and how to get more of it. :)

614 srb1976  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:55:18am

Ok, time to bounce the kiddies out of bed and get them off to daycare so I can sleep (Yay! sleep!)
Hopefull, the Little Man will be excited enough about his field trip to not fight too much = )

615 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:55:27am

re: #610 BlueCanuck

What words are you using?

"Pres Bush denied network coverage"

"Networks deny air time for Pres. Bush"

616 CIA Reject  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:56:02am

Work intrudes - BBL

617 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:57:58am

re: #613 BlueCanuck

It's a guy thing most of us have a two tracked mind. Sex, and how to get more of it. :)

OK people enough talk about sex please. I have not seen my wife in over a month and still have almost 2 weeks to go.

618 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:58:11am

re: #615 MandyManners

"Pres Bush denied network coverage"

"Networks deny air time for Pres. Bush"

If it happened, it is likely to be in his first term, not his second. (Bush chose to talk to the press much less in his second term).

619 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:59:02am

re: #617 Erik The Red

OK people enough talk about sex please. I have not seen my wife in over a month and still have almost 2 weeks to go.

I keep trying to deflect it, but they keep coming back to it!
Sorta proving the point, I think.

620 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:59:10am

re: #602 MandyManners

Maybe I'm not using the correct search terms but, I've found zip.

Media Matters says the bill does not outlaw private health insurance and that "conservative media" are LIARS [ed. note: not a direct quote].

However, it is not all all clear to me that it does not outlaw NEW health insurance plans, i.e. remove the non-Federal marketplace from the picture so that Obamacare may roam freely as a brontosaurus in a YEC museum.

Once again, we are at the mercy of Democrat shills and what the meaning of "is" is.

/ps - I am biased in that if Media Matters told me it was raining, I would check to see if their fly was open.

621 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:59:32am

re: #617 Erik The Red

OK people enough talk about sex please. I have not seen my wife in over a month and still have almost 2 weeks to go.

And that right there is your sleep problem.

622 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:00:01am

re: #621 reine.de.tout

And that right there is your sleep problem.

Yes it is :(((

623 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:00:26am

re: #617 Erik The Red

OK people enough talk about sex please. I have not seen my wife in over a month and still have almost 2 weeks to go.

You're married, i.e. on the once-a-year-whether-you-like-it-or-not-plan, so quit lyin'.

;)

624 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:00:46am

re: #612 midwestgak

Yes I am. The way things worked out, severance and unemployment, I was able to pay off all my credit card debt. Big load off my monthly financial situation.

A silver lining, then?
Glad it worked out that way for you . . .

625 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:01:07am

re: #615 MandyManners

Okay, I am using a different string. "President refused air time". Haven't found anything yet, but I did find an interesting nugget of info from 2006.

626 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:01:14am

re: #528 SixDegrees

An alternative translation: "I'm not worried about raising rates, because the economy looks like it's going to be in the dumper as far as anyone is able to see."

The problem Six is that with the high debt we have to finance, rates will go up. Also, the insane fiscal policy of Obama is now interjecting a significant default premium into the treasury rate for the first time in history.

I know you know this next item, so it's not meant for you, but for those who are not aware of how interest rates are generated in the market. Interest rates have several components to them. One component is the real time value of money (approximated by the t-bill rate). There are also premiums for risk of default, for anticipated inflation and for duration. Some financial whizzes see other components as well, but those are the major ones.

So, the higher the default premium for treasuries and the higher the anticipated future inflation, the higher the interest rate.

Interest rates are going to go up and there is nothing Bernanke can do about it.

627 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:01:41am

Morning all.
The headline/article at Drudge The Rescuers! is great.
If Obama really gets on TV tonight and tells America that he "rescued the economy", I think that could be the tipping point for many of the "moderate" HopenChangers. Nobody likes to be lied to, nor do people like it when their "leaders" assume that they are dumber than dirt.

628 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:02:28am

re: #623 OldLineTexan

You're married, i.e. on the once-a-year-whether-you-like-it-or-not-plan, so quit lyin'.

;)

LOL. I signed up for a slightly better plan. :) At least 44 has not tried to mandate a government sex plan, so we still have a choice.

629 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:03:23am

After he gave an unfavorable report to Congress about FCBBHO's power grab, the director of the CBO, Doug Elmendorf, was summoned to the White House. This guy is supposed to work for Congress, not the White House.

630 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:03:37am

My pissed off moment of the morning

According to charging documents, Hrnjic is accused of showing pornographic Web sites to a 5-year-old boy and 10- and 12-year-old girls, having sexually explicit conversations with them.

She's also accused of telling the boy to stand nude in front of a computer equipped with a Web camera. The documents state one girl refused to pose inappropriately for the camera when Hrnjic asked.

The children told detectives they locked themselves in the bathroom to avoid the nanny.

If I was one of those parents...
I'll stop now to avoid getting banned.

631 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:04:04am

re: #618 iceweasel

If it happened, it is likely to be in his first term, not his second. (Bush chose to talk to the press much less in his second term).

It DID happen.

632 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:04:09am

re: #608 Walter L. Newton

BBIAB got to walk the 3 dogs.

Is that what you kids are calling it these days?

/

633 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:04:12am

re: #604 3 wood

I had the same shirt at one point. A few months ago I looked for it, but it must have got thrown out with some other shirts.

634 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:04:48am

re: #624 reine.de.tout

A silver lining, then?
Glad it worked out that way for you . . .

Thanks. And thanks for your concern. Like you, many lizards have been encouraging. It is much appreciated.

635 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:05:18am

re: #620 OldLineTexan

Media Matters says the bill does not outlaw private health insurance and that "conservative media" are LIARS [ed. note: not a direct quote].

However, it is not all all clear to me that it does not outlaw NEW health insurance plans, i.e. remove the non-Federal marketplace from the picture so that Obamacare may roam freely as a brontosaurus in a YEC museum.

Once again, we are at the mercy of Democrat shills and what the meaning of "is" is.

/ps - I am biased in that if Media Matters told me it was raining, I would check to see if their fly was open.

I'm looking for a link to the MFM refusing to grant Pres. Bush coverage of a prime-time address to the nation.

636 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:05:35am

re: #625 BlueCanuck

Okay, I am using a different string. "President refused air time". Haven't found anything yet, but I did find an interesting nugget of info from 2006.

I got a slew of "Bush lied about his military service" links with one string.

Gosh, I bet the Dems miss that kind of smokescreen now.

637 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:06:09am

re: #635 MandyManners

Yeah, I hit reply and then went off on a tangent without cleaning it up. Sorry!

638 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:06:33am

re: #620 OldLineTexan

Media Matters says the bill does not outlaw private health insurance and that "conservative media" are LIARS [ed. note: not a direct quote].

However, it is not all all clear to me that it does not outlaw NEW health insurance plans, i.e. remove the non-Federal marketplace from the picture so that Obamacare may roam freely as a brontosaurus in a YEC museum.

As far as I can tell, pre-existing insurance plans are all grandfathered in, no changes to them (that is for certain)-- but the issue is about new individual plans. New plans have to be part of the Health Insurance Exchange:

"According to the House Ways and Means Committee's summary of the bill, the Health Insurance Exchange "creates a transparent and functional marketplace for individuals and small employers to comparison shop among private and public insurers."

So, the changes would affect the purchase of new individual insurance plans, where private insurers would have to be part of this HIE.

639 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:08:05am

re: #631 MandyManners

It DID happen.

If I turn it up, I'll post the link.

640 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:08:07am

re: #625 BlueCanuck

Okay, I am using a different string. "President refused air time". Haven't found anything yet, but I did find an interesting nugget of info from 2006.

I found mention of the MFM not giving Pres. Bush coverage in--of all places--DU.

It's at the bottom.

641 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:09:27am

Hmmm, Clinton was refused air time in 1995, so I think we should put this MFM canard to bed over all. Just because a president asks, doesn't necessarily mean he's going to get it.

642 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:09:36am

Here's a Bush link. Is this what you are looking for?

643 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:09:45am

Local radio station WHAS daily poll. How do you rate Obama's handling of health care reform? 88.73% say poor--7.04% say average--4.23% say excellent. Ha! Good morning people.

644 TheMatrix31  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:09:52am

re: #627 lincolntf

Morning all.
The headline/article at Drudge The Rescuers! is great.
If Obama really gets on TV tonight and tells America that he "rescued the economy", I think that could be the tipping point for many of the "moderate" HopenChangers. Nobody likes to be lied to, nor do people like it when their "leaders" assume that they are dumber than dirt.

If they were dumb enough to vote for him in the first place, they might be dumb enough to buy that he's rescued it. That's what scares ME.

645 OldLineTexan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:10:28am

re: #638 iceweasel

So, the changes would affect the purchase of new individual insurance plans, where private insurers would have to be part of this HIE.

I agree ... do you see anywhere in the MM article where they specify "new"?

646 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:13:14am

Good morning y'all - from a pleasant (68 degrees goingup to 87 degrees) bright and sunny Charlotte!
How is everyone this morning?

647 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:13:26am

re: #638 iceweasel

."...creates a transparent and functional marketplace for individuals and small employers to comparison shop among private and public insurers."

I don't think we can stand any more "transparency" from these bozos.

648 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:13:28am

morning lizards!

Well, perhaps the bloom is off the rose - or maybe NBC is just pissed about the access the WH has given to ABC.

Move over Mr President: Susan Boyle forces Barack Obama to switch time of national address

Susan Boyle's command over America was reaffirmed last night when Barack Obama had to play second fiddle to the 48-year-old Scottish singer.

The U.S. President was forced to switch his prime-time TV health care address because of a clash with a SuBo interview.
The four broadcasting networks across in the States usually agree to show Obama's prime-time news conferences but NBC balked this time.That is because America's Got Talent featured an exclusive interview

649 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:13:55am

So FCBBHO will deny Americans the right to spend their money as they see fit.

650 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:14:27am

re: #646 realwest

Good morning y'all - from a pleasant (68 degrees goingup to 87 degrees) bright and sunny Charlotte!
How is everyone this morning?

Good morning rw. How are you doing?

651 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:14:34am

re: #646 realwest

morning sweetcakes - did you see the email I sent you this morning?

652 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:15:24am

re: #646 realwest

Morning realwest. This cool weather up here is starting to become climate I think. :)

/well it isn't all that bad yet...

653 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:17:10am

re: #648 wahabicorridor

morning lizards!

Well, perhaps the bloom is off the rose - or maybe NBC is just pissed about the access the WH has given to ABC.

Move over Mr President: Susan Boyle forces Barack Obama to switch time of national address

Susan Boyle's command over America was reaffirmed last night when Barack Obama had to play second fiddle to the 48-year-old Scottish singer.

I'd rather see and hear her.

Youtube Video
654 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:17:15am

re: #645 OldLineTexan

I agree ... do you see anywhere in the MM article where they specify "new"?

They don't use the word 'new', but that's what this means:

In fact, as Media Matters for America has noted, the provision to which the editorial referred establishes the conditions under which existing private plans would be exempted from the requirement that they participate in the Health Insurance Exchange. Individual health insurance plans that do not meet the "grandfather" conditions would still be available for purchase, but only through the Exchange and subject to those regulations.

And this (i'm snipping out)

Sec. 102 subsection (c) states that "Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan."

(bolding mine)

It's definitely confusingly written. Also, as lincolntf says at 647, who knows what this "transparency" means in terms of the HIE?

Seems like the real worry is that the private insurance plans available after Y1 in the Health Insurance Exchange won't be able to compete with the public ones, so you wind up with a situation where new insurance plans purchased by individuals or small businesses are all de facto public plans. What effect that might have, I don't know.

655 Ojoe  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:17:26am

Today's dawn over the San Gabrial Mountains of California. (Towercam)

re: #648 wahabicorridor

There you see the real value of BHO. I cannot wait till he is no longer in office. I pray to God we get a real leader next.

656 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:18:14am

re: #643 KenJen

Local radio station WHAS daily poll. How do you rate Obama's handling of health care reform? 88.73% say poor--7.04% say average--4.23% say excellent. Ha! Good morning people.

Oh good, now you just likely conjured up Avanti to come in and explain to us why this poll does not mean anything.

657 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:19:27am

re: #646 realwest

How is everyone this morning?

Doing great. I was worried about you, had not heard from you in a day or so. You OK?

658 Ojoe  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:20:23am

re: #627 lincolntf

He might say he "rescued the economy?"

If he says that I will curse.

No work here still (building design).

No designing, no construction crews later, with a big multiplier.

659 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:21:07am

re: #649 MandyManners

So FCBBHO will deny Americans the right to spend their money as they see fit.

He see's your income as being the governments money, they just let you have a little bit of it from time to time to spend yourself.

660 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:22:56am

re: #659 3 wood

He see's your income as being the governments money, they just let you have a little bit of it from time to time to spend yourself.

Mighty nice of him.

661 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:23:06am

re: #645 OldLineTexan
Hey OLT! I see you're talking about Obamacare eh? Well how long do you think Americans of decent health and younger age (i.e., the healthiest Americans) are going to take to stampede to a government run insurance program that, although it WILL rationalize health care, will not be seeking to make a profit and will therefor charge MUCH LESS for the same coverage?
And, how come the following groups are free from any influence of Obamacare: Presidents of the US - Present and Past; members of Congress and Justices of the Supreme Court including those who are retired; and UNION MEMBERS? Hmmm?
If Obamacare is SO GOOD, why don't the President and Congress have to get the same insurance as we do? And yes We Will have to because Private insurance can't compete with govenrment insurance when private insurance is looking to make a profit and the Government can't even spell profit?!

662 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:24:32am

I heard on the way to work that Obama has called in the director of the CBO for a meeting after his report last week on the costs of the healthcare plan.
The CBO does not work for you, mr.president. WTF? ? ?

663 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:24:44am

re: #654 iceweasel

"...so you wind up with a situation where new insurance plans purchased by individuals or small businesses are all de facto public plans. What effect that might have, I don't know."

The effect it will have is the intended effect.
Ins. companies will be forced out of business or will hike their rates so high that they're available to only a tiny percentage of consumers. Obama has repeatedly said (in his special way of saying things) that he wants the money that currently goes to the Ins. Co.'s to go to the Government.

664 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:25:50am

re: #648 wahabicorridor

morning lizards!

Well, perhaps the bloom is off the rose - or maybe NBC is just pissed about the access the WH has given to ABC.

Move over Mr President: Susan Boyle forces Barack Obama to switch time of national address

Susan Boyle's command over America was reaffirmed last night when Barack Obama had to play second fiddle to the 48-year-old Scottish singer.

Would be funny if she sang "Tell Me Lies, tell me sweet little lies" by Fleetwood Mac before B.O. comes on.

665 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:26:47am

re: #558 Erik The Red

Hey Blue. Not really.
Morning reine. 11 days until my family gets here. Sorry I phrased that badly. Need more coffee. :)

Also it has been 21 days since my last smoke.

Awesome. Hang in there. Going through the same over here but you can do it!

666 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:26:51am

re: #658 Ojoe

That's what Rahm said he is going to say.
I'm really hoping he does, kind of as an homage to George Orwell.

667 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:27:19am

re: #651 wahabicorridor
and
re: #650 Erik The Red
re: #652 BlueCanuck
re: #657 3 wood

Good morning all! {wahabi} yes I did get your e-mail, thankew very much!
And ETR, Blue and 3 wood I'm doing ok, just tired and somewhat out of sorts and have CHORES to do today, but other than that I'm ok! Thank you all too for asking!
NOW I gotta run for a few minutes -BBIAM!!

668 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:27:23am

re: #663 lincolntf

"...so you wind up with a situation where new insurance plans purchased by individuals or small businesses are all de facto public plans. What effect that might have, I don't know."

The effect it will have is the intended effect.
Ins. companies will be forced out of business or will hike their rates so high that they're available to only a tiny percentage of consumers. Obama has repeatedly said (in his special way of saying things) that he wants the money that currently goes to the Ins. Co.'s to go to the Government.

I'm not so sure about this, because all the existing plans will not be affected. I also don't believe that Obama wants all the money currently going to the insurance co,'s to go to government, so much as he wants a check on the insurance co.'s
Also to reign in and fix medicare and medicaid.

669 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:27:30am

I'm setting the over/under on some propositional bets for tonight's speech.

1. Times Obama blames Bush - 3

2. Times Obama uses the word "inherited" - 4

3. Times the MSM asks "questions" that basically says that they want to shine his shoes in camera - 6

4. "Uuh's" from the One - 40

670 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:28:52am

re: #669 3 wood

You forgot:

Ummms at 50
Errrs at 35.

:)

671 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:29:03am

re: #579 MandyManners

Fox again ran the tape of FCBBHO saying he didn't know if private insurance would be illegal.

If it were before my mom went into the hospital over a month ago, she'd be dead because the doctors would have had instructions to "ration" her care.

Have you seen the video where he suggests painkillers instead of actual treatment for the mother of a woman asking him about healthcare?

672 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:29:25am

re: #669 3 wood

I'm setting the over/under on some propositional bets for tonight's speech.

1. Times Obama blames Bush - 3

2. Times Obama uses the word "inherited" - 4

3. Times the MSM asks "questions" that basically says that they want to shine his shoes in camera - 6

4. "Uuh's" from the One - 40

Aren't one and two the same?

Oh, wait. Number two can also be seen as an attempt to attack the economic foundation of this nation.

673 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:30:23am

re: #669 3 wood

I'm setting the over/under on some propositional bets for tonight's speech.

1. Times Obama blames Bush - 3

2. Times Obama uses the word "inherited" - 4

3. Times the MSM asks "questions" that basically says that they want to shine his shoes in camera - 6

4. "Uuh's" from the One - 40

Give me a dime on the over for the "Uuh's'"

674 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:30:32am

re: #671 Pianobuff

Have you seen the video where he suggests painkillers instead of actual treatment for the mother of a woman asking him about healthcare?

Instead of treatment that will cure/ameliorate the effects of a disease?

675 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:30:45am

re: #632 OldLineTexan

Is that what you kids are calling it these days?

/

Dogs walked, whew, that felt good.

676 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:31:08am

re: #671 Pianobuff

Have you seen the video where he suggests painkillers instead of actual treatment for the mother of a woman asking him about healthcare?

Where did he get his fucking medical degree?

677 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:31:22am

re: #661 realwest

If Obamacare is SO GOOD, why don't the President and Congress have to get the same insurance as we do? And yes We Will have to because Private insurance can't compete with govenrment insurance when private insurance is looking to make a profit and the Government can't even spell profit?!

Hey real, did you see the provision that will require Seniors to go in for like counseling at least once every 5 years and more often if they are sick?

And that counseling will include end of life plans.

I think that's where they tell people with cancer or other significant illnesses tough luck, your on your own.

678 FrogMarch  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:31:51am

Good day all.
Here it is again; in case you haven't sent it to every lefty you know - it's worth reading:

Obama's Top Five Health Care Lies

679 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:32:24am

re: #672 MandyManners

Oh, wait. Number two can also be seen as an attempt to attack the economic foundation of this nation.

bingo. This is being used to attack more than just the health care situation. We are looking at a hunting license to do massive transfers of wealth here.

680 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:32:45am

re: #669 3 wood

I'm setting the over/under on some propositional bets for tonight's speech.

2. Times Obama uses the word "inherited" - 4

I'd bet that one's right. Might even be higher.

I would also expect to hear the words "60 years" thrown around at least once to describe how long health care reform has been talked about. Also the words "urgency" and something about "now is the time to act". (although those last two are part of many Obama speeches so that's not much of a guess on my part)

Another bet: look for the words "obstruct" and "obstructionism" and "delaying tactic(s)".

681 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:33:00am

re: #677 3 wood

Hey real, did you see the provision that will require Seniors to go in for like counseling at least once every 5 years and more often if they are sick?

And that counseling will include end of life plans.

I think that's where they tell people with cancer or other significant illnesses tough luck, your on your own.


I saw a commercial spot this morning where they compare government run healthcare to a restaurant where everybody gets the same meal and one "seasoned citizen" who is in line gets her plate taken away and told to leave. It certainly made it's point.

682 Ojoe  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:33:14am

re: #666 lincolntf

I guess BHO is disconnected enough from reality anyway, to say that he rescued the economy. What does anything matter anymore? Piss.

683 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:33:17am

re: #668 iceweasel

Companies that cannot enroll new consumers (without forcing them to pay off the Government for the right to be insured) are going to be drastically effected, wouldn't you say? In fact, if this passes I bet the layoffs in the Ins. industry begin immediately. There will be no future for their industry.

684 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:33:47am

Do not fear,
Let not your hearts be troubled,
ye believe in God, believe also in the one ...

O RESCUED THE ECONOMY!

Now back to reality, morning all. Hey no overnight thread, that's a first for turn. How ya all doing?

685 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:34:22am

re: #678 FrogMarch

Good day all.
Here it is again; in case you haven't sent it to every lefty you know - it's worth reading:

Obama's Top Five Health Care Lies

And this article is suppose to convince liberals of what? Most of the liberal I know what ALL of this control, and more.

Point?

686 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:35:06am

re: #674 MandyManners

Instead of treatment that will cure/ameliorate the effects of a disease?

Yup. My "doomsday" prediction about a nationalized system would involve R&D and rollout of "permanent pain management" devices and/or drugs in order to minimize office/pharmacy visits and whining on behalf of the sick.

687 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:35:27am

re: #677 3 wood
"And that counseling will include end of life plans.

I think that's where they tell people with cancer or other significant illnesses tough luck, your on your own."

Uh, no...no I hadn't seen that. Thank you VERY MUCH my friend!
/

Oh btw, who is in first place in the American Leage East?!

688 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:35:41am

re: #683 lincolntf

Companies that cannot enroll new consumers (without forcing them to pay off the Government for the right to be insured) are going to be drastically effected, wouldn't you say?

Won't a large company with a preexisting plan, like Microsoft or whoever, retain their old plan and be able to enroll new employees on the pre-existing plan?

I'm not too worried about the insurance companies. I'm more worried about individuals and people starting up new companies.

689 Ojoe  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:35:45am

re: #684 turn

Probabaly rescued it from some hypothetical worse disaster; he could concoct any bigger mess he wanted to project, but it would all be virtual...

690 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:36:19am

re: #668 iceweasel

hey iceweasel

I'm not trying to change the subject but I wanted to tell you something. Remember yesterday when we were talking about Ralph Peters and the soldier that's been captured. Well I caught Peters on O'Reilly last nite and it was an outrage. First, he claimed an anon. (military) source had assured him the soldier had deserted. It went downhill from there.

I couldn't believe it. Even if everything he said is absolutely true, all he accomplished was giving comfort to the enemy, causing his family untold pain.

What an asshole.

ok, back to healthcare stuff, sorry for the interruption.

691 Irish Rose  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:36:27am

Good morning, lizards.

Obama is pushing hard today on his healthcare bill. It was good to see the Blue Dogs standing in the gap yesterday.

692 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:36:47am

re: #669 3 wood

I'm setting the over/under on some propositional bets for tonight's speech.

1. Times Obama blames Bush - 3

2. Times Obama uses the word "inherited" - 4

3. Times the MSM asks "questions" that basically says that they want to shine his shoes in camera - 6

4. "Uuh's" from the One - 40

You forgot the "I's" and "my's" which generally run as some random multiple of the "Uuh's".

Mornin folks.

693 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:36:48am

re: #680 iceweasel

I'd bet that one's right. Might even be higher.

I would also expect to hear the words "60 years" thrown around at least once to describe how long health care reform has been talked about. Also the words "urgency" and something about "now is the time to act". (although those last two are part of many Obama speeches so that's not much of a guess on my part)

Another bet: look for the words "obstruct" and "obstructionism" and "delaying tactic(s)".

Hell if we have waited 60 years for reform why the hell is 44 trying to rush it through before congress breaks up? If we waited this long surly another month or 6 will not make a difference. At least it gives the critters time to reading the bill.

694 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:36:50am

re: #682 Ojoe

I guess BHO is disconnected enough from reality anyway, to say that he rescued the economy. What does anything matter anymore? Piss.

Morning Ojoe, yeah it's going to be fun watching him try and spin this thing tonight. Someone should keep track of 3w's over under, he probably nailed it. This mess is so far over o's head it's scary.

695 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:37:34am

re: #631 MandyManners

It DID happen.


It did & I remember thinking that it is unusual to deny the President free air time, not unheard of, but unusual

696 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:38:24am

re: #683 lincolntf

Companies that cannot enroll new consumers (without forcing them to pay off the Government for the right to be insured) are going to be drastically effected, wouldn't you say? In fact, if this passes I bet the layoffs in the Ins. industry begin immediately. There will be no future for their industry.

1) they should not allow ANYBODY in Congress to even Vote on the bill till they are made to read each and every word of the bill and PASS a test with 100% accuracy. I had to take a test on the M-16 and M9 and pass with 100% accuracy before I was allowed to shot by the Navy.
2) they should shit can Obamacare, but that's another story

697 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:38:30am

re: #687 realwest

Morning, real.
Hope the day has found you feeling well !

698 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:38:41am

re: #688 iceweasel

Won't a large company with a preexisting plan, like Microsoft or whoever, retain their old plan and be able to enroll new employees on the pre-existing plan?
 . . .

No.
No new enrollees.

699 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:39:11am

re: #693 Erik The Red

At least it gives the critters time to reading the bill.

Are you kidding? The reason why the bills are larger then most Roman history text books is so that they aren't read. Only way they can sneak in laws, regulations, slush funds...

700 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:39:17am

re: #683 lincolntf
Good morning lincolntf - Yup, within 2 years there will be no private insurance plans for the public - as I said above, Obamacare is going to reduce healthcare costs by RATIONING health care (not unlike Canada and GB) and by not seeking to make a profit on healthcare.
Because, you know, healthcare is a right! And the government can't spell much less try to make a profit from healthcare. NO private insurance company can hope to compete with that.

701 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:39:46am

re: #688 iceweasel

Won't a large company with a preexisting plan, like Microsoft or whoever, retain their old plan and be able to enroll new employees on the pre-existing plan?

According to the WSJ, ERISA will be gutted.

Erisa allows employers that self-insure—that is, those large enough to build their own risk pools and pay benefits directly—to offer uniform plans across state lines. This lets thousands of businesses avoid, for the most part, the costly federal and state regulations on covered treatments, pricing, rate setting and so on. It also gives them flexibility to design insurance to recruit and retain workers in a competitive labor market. Roughly 75% of employer-based coverage is governed by Erisa’s “freedom of purchase” rules.

Goodbye to all that. The House bill says that after a five-year grace period all Erisa insurance offerings will have to win government approval—both by the Department of Labor and a new “health choices commissioner” who will set federal standards for what is an acceptable health plan. This commissar—er, commissioner—can fine employers that don’t comply and even has “suspension of enrollment” powers for plans that he or she has vetoed, until “satisfied that the basis for such determination has been corrected and is not likely to recur.”

In other words, the insurance coverage of 132 million people—the product of enormously complex business and health-care decisions—will now be subject to bureaucratic nanomanagement.

702 FrogMarch  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:40:07am

re: #669 3 wood

I'm setting the over/under on some propositional bets for tonight's speech.

1. Times Obama blames Bush - 3

2. Times Obama uses the word "inherited" - 4

3. Times the MSM asks "questions" that basically says that they want to shine his shoes in camera - 6

4. "Uuh's" from the One - 40

Obama will be using his most polished lies and rhetorical flourishes. "We must act now. We have talked about his long enough. The time has come... A bajillion people are without health care. We will squeeze savings (that's my favorite laugh line). I promise you can keep your plan and that this isn't a Trojan horse for single payer government run health care. Costs are skyrocketing and insurance providers and drug companies are making record profits - we must end that!" blah blah blah.
It's all code for - "I won and you all need to take your government run medicine."

703 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:40:13am

re: #687 realwest

Oh btw, who is in first place in the American Leage East?!


That would be the Evil Empire, i.e., the New York Yankees my friend.


I see where the Cubs are in 2nd. Bad news though, they can;t play the Washington Nat's all season long, they got the Phillies now and are getting beat so far.

White Sox have snuck up to 2nd place too, but their defense is awful.

704 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:40:14am

re: #688 iceweasel

Too quote Obama, "uh...errr, I don't know about that provision...".

You may honestly believe that this mess is about helping people get health care, but I'm sure that it is not. It's about adding a huge layer of Government control over our most personal health/financial decisions.

705 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:40:14am

re: #694 turn

Morning Ojoe, yeah it's going to be fun watching him try and spin this thing tonight. Someone should keep track of 3w's over under, he probably nailed it. This mess is so far over o's head it's scary.

Don't bet on it. This man is not in the White House because he is over his head. He has 30 years of handlers and current support from a large contingent of far left progressive that are navigating for him, he is a figurehead.

IMO, If you think that he is floundering, then they managed to fool you too.

706 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:40:28am

re: #698 reine.de.tout

No.
No new enrollees.

Also, it is my understanding that if anything changes in the plan (and they are always changing), then it's null and void and you have to buy the government plan.

707 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:40:30am

re: #700 realwest

Good morning lincolntf - Yup, within 2 years there will be no private insurance plans for the public - as I said above, Obamacare is going to reduce healthcare costs by RATIONING health care (not unlike Canada and GB) and by not seeking to make a profit on healthcare.
Because, you know, healthcare is a right! And the government can't spell much less try to make a profit from healthcare. NO private insurance company can hope to compete with that.

It's obvious to anybody with half a brain that is the only thing that can happen.

708 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:40:38am

there are 225 dems and 178 reps in the house. w/ the strong arm tactics of pelosi and o, himself, if the country was behind this, o could easily push it thru the house. o is losing support. the longer he has to wait, the less chance he has of ramming this down our throats.
o only got 52% of the vote. this does not authorize him to turn our country upside down in 6 mos. he is on t.v. all the time telling us it is not abt. him. LOL
it is all abt. o all the time. he is obsessed w/ grabbing all the power he can.
it is getting so obnoxious.
yesterday he had brad paisley, allison kraus and the amazing charlie pride
perform in the w.h. this is o trying to connect to all the bitter clingers he has nothing but disdain for. o is too much of an elitist to like this kind of music. imagine wab cringing at having to listen to country music. i call b.s. on this charade. it is like jon cary gettin' him a huntin' license in so. ohio.
o is getting pissed that he is meeting resistance. that is a new experience for the anointed one. we need to give him more of it.
show him he is NOT a king, just a lowlife commie totus.

709 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:40:54am

Mornin' folks. From an extremely warm Wenatchee Valley. Supposed to be pushing 100 for the next few days then the fun really starts. 105 by the middle of next week!
Is it just me or is the one having a lot of podium time with the msm?

710 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:41:10am

re: #681 redstateredneck
Good morning {red} - just so long as the government realizes that some senior citizens don't intend to be the only ones who don't need plates for food, he'll be ok.

711 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:41:12am

re: #689 Ojoe

Probabaly rescued it from some hypothetical worse disaster; he could concoct any bigger mess he wanted to project, but it would all be virtual...

Washington Post columnist Steven Pearlstein was on Morning Joe this morning trying to spin the budget crisis for o, he actually had the audacity to claim the deficit would be less than one trillion if you can believe that.

712 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:41:13am

re: #700 realwest

Actually we are allowed private health insurance up here. The only things that it will cover is stuff that public health care won't cover. Like prescriptions, some rehab, glasses, private rooms...

713 Ojoe  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:41:25am

re: #694 turn

Obama HAS been known to say "above my pay grade".

I do not think that thought would even BE in the mind of anyone competent to be president at the moment.

Good morning all, and,

BBL

714 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:41:44am

re: #709 pingjockey

Mornin' folks. From an extremely warm Wenatchee Valley. Supposed to be pushing 100 for the next few days then the fun really starts. 105 by the middle of next week!
Is it just me or is the one having a lot of podium time with the msm?

50 degrees here at the Secret Mountain Lair at 8000 feet in the Rocky Mountains. Overnights have actually been chilly.

715 pink freud  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:41:46am

re: #677 3 wood

I think that's where they tell people with cancer or other significant illnesses tough luck, your on your own.

Perhaps this aspect of health care is why Teh 0ne is considering John Vons for the position of Pseudo-Science Czar. In this light, his associations with The Institute of Noetic Sciences begin to make more sense.

716 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:41:55am

re: #690 wahabicorridor

hey iceweasel

I'm not trying to change the subject but I wanted to tell you something. Remember yesterday when we were talking about Ralph Peters and the soldier that's been captured. Well I caught Peters on O'Reilly last nite and it was an outrage. First, he claimed an anon. (military) source had assured him the soldier had deserted. It went downhill from there.

I couldn't believe it. Even if everything he said is absolutely true, all he accomplished was giving comfort to the enemy, causing his family untold pain.

What an asshole.

ok, back to healthcare stuff, sorry for the interruption.

hey wahabi! How are you?

I was thinking about our conversation about Peters last night. I don't know if you remember, but I mentioned he'd already been on my radar because he'd been mentioned before (in the progsphere) for something awful he'd written. I went looking a couple of hours ago and found it. He was predicting that a time might come when the military has to kill journalists.

I can't believe he's doubling down on this lunacy about the captured GI. What a total douche. I was also thinking last night about how much pain his statements have to be causing the GI's family. Ugh. I wish Fox would can him for this.

717 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:42:11am

re: #700 realwest

Good morning lincolntf - Yup, within 2 years there will be no private insurance plans for the public - as I said above, Obamacare is going to reduce healthcare costs by RATIONING health care (not unlike Canada and GB) and by not seeking to make a profit on healthcare.
Because, you know, healthcare is a right! And the government can't spell much less try to make a profit from healthcare. NO private insurance company can hope to compete with that.


Sebelius was dancing all around the question of rationing this morning on Fox & Friends. She said healthcare is "rationed" now because of the exorbitant costs that keep many people out of the system.

718 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:42:43am

re: #712 BlueCanuck

Actually we are allowed private health insurance up here. The only things that it will cover is stuff that public health care won't cover. Like prescriptions, some rehab, glasses, private rooms...

Wait, wait, wait... your Canadian health care doesn't cover scripts? You pay fully out of pocket if the government doctors order something for you?

719 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:42:56am

re: #677 3 wood

Hey real, did you see the provision that will require Seniors to go in for like counseling at least once every 5 years and more often if they are sick?

And that counseling will include end of life plans.

I think that's where they tell people with cancer or other significant illnesses tough luck, your on your own.

What if you refuse counselling? Will that end your coverage?

720 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:43:37am

re: #691 Irish Rose

Good morning, lizards.

Obama is pushing hard today on his healthcare bill. It was good to see the Blue Dogs standing in the gap yesterday.

And some state medical associations are now breaking away from the AMA and coming out against Obamacare. Let's hope the "hey, wait a minute here" crowd wakes up and adds its voice to the mix.

721 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:43:42am

re: #679 3 wood

bingo. This is being used to attack more than just the health care situation. We are looking at a hunting license to do massive transfers of wealth here.

It's just one facet of the taking down of capitalism in America.

722 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:43:53am

re: #710 realwest

Good morning {red} - just so long as the government realizes that some senior citizens don't intend to be the only ones who don't need plates for food, he'll be ok.

Hey, {real}. I hear ya' loud and clear. Lots of young folks are on SSI and medicaid.

723 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:44:21am

re: #714 Walter L. Newton
That's nice. If we go camping the end of next month it should be that cool at night.

724 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:44:45am

I am back and just wanted to edit something.

I said before that the rabbis I spoke to believe there is a conflict between science and religion. This was an incorrect way of phrasing things. They believe ID does not conflict with science.

I hope that clarifies things.

725 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:44:46am

re: #681 redstateredneck

I saw a commercial spot this morning where they compare government run healthcare to a restaurant where everybody gets the same meal and one "seasoned citizen" who is in line gets her plate taken away and told to leave. It certainly made it's point.

How about the vegetarian who was refused a pasta dish and then ordered to eat a burger?

726 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:44:53am

re: #688 iceweasel
Good morning. "I'm not too worried about the insurance companies" Me either - just more folks to add to the lines of the unemployed/underemployed and, of course, falling tax revenues!
What could go wrong?

727 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:45:02am

re: #702 FrogMarch

Morning FM, another one that gets me is "deficit neutral", yeah right.

728 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:45:10am

re: #711 turn

Washington Post columnist Steven Pearlstein was on Morning Joe this morning trying to spin the budget crisis for o, he actually had the audacity to claim the deficit would be less than one trillion if you can believe that.

That asshole actually tried to spin that the numbers being tossed around - like $23 trillion - really don't matter - it was the same 'doing nothing is not an option' crappola

HIYA PINK FREUD!

729 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:45:22am

re: #718 Walter L. Newton

Wait, wait, wait... your Canadian health care doesn't cover scripts? You pay fully out of pocket if the government doctors order something for you?

That's right, and for some one like me it sucks. I am allergic to the common antibiotics. So for the longest time I had to take either sulfa, or pony up the cash for the newest ones if I had a bad infection.

730 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:45:30am

re: #725 MandyManners

How about the vegetarian who was refused a pasta dish and then ordered to eat a burger?

Oh, yeah! I forgot about her.

731 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:45:43am

re: #686 Pianobuff

Yup. My "doomsday" prediction about a nationalized system would involve R&D and rollout of "permanent pain management" devices and/or drugs in order to minimize office/pharmacy visits and whining on behalf of the sick.

And, government-approved euthenasia.

732 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:46:45am

re: #705 Walter L. Newton

Don't bet on it. This man is not in the White House because he is over his head. He has 30 years of handlers and current support from a large contingent of far left progressive that are navigating for him, he is a figurehead.

IMO, If you think that he is floundering, then they managed to fool you too.

Well call me fooled then Walter, he and his handlers are fucking up big time on the economy.

733 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:47:03am

re: #697 SasquatchOnSteroids Hey good morning my friend, well I'm tired and grumpy but otherwise ok, thanks!
How are you doing today?

734 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:47:06am

Forget obamacare! The killer bees are on the march in the southwest!

735 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:47:12am

re: #702 FrogMarch

Obama will be using his most polished lies and rhetorical flourishes. "We must act now. We have talked about his long enough. The time has come... A bajillion people are without health care. We will squeeze savings (that's my favorite laugh line). I promise you can keep your plan and that this isn't a Trojan horse for single payer government run health care. Costs are skyrocketing and insurance providers and drug companies are making record profits - we must end that!" blah blah blah.
It's all code for - "I won and you all need to take your government run medicine."

When his grandma Toot got ill (the one that he besmirched as a racist)
I don't think that Obama told her to take some meds & get to a Hospice.
If he gets his rationing plan, there will be a three tiered system, with Federal officials keeping their plan, VIP's moving to the head of the line & the rest of us taking a number.

736 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:47:22am

re: #723 pingjockey

That's nice. If we go camping the end of next month it should be that cool at night.

Maisey the Parrot survived the move. She seems to be comfortable here. The two cats don't appear to be a problem like we expected, they are afraid of her and have spent very little time in the upper part of the house since Maisey arrived.

Two of the dogs appear to be very protective of her, but the dingo mix, there is no doubt he wants to eat her.

That's different than we expected. Dogs have always gotten along with Maisey.

737 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:47:30am

re: #718 Walter L. Newton

Oh, one other thing. The doctors are not government employees. They are paid by the government for patients seen, and procedures done. They set up private practices and forward all bills to the government insurance.

738 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:47:39am

re: #724 Daria Emmons

I am back and just wanted to edit something.

I said before that the rabbis I spoke to believe there is a conflict between science and religion. This was an incorrect way of phrasing things. They believe ID does not conflict with science.

I hope that clarifies things.

You need to talk to some scientists then, because they'll give you the exact opposite answer. ID is not science, and ID would actually undermine science.

739 FrogMarch  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:47:49am

re: #685 Walter L. Newton

And this article is suppose to convince liberals of what? Most of the liberal I know what ALL of this control, and more.

Point?

Point? It's a good run-down of Obama's lies and half-truths.
I realize most lefty/liberals want government control. I know a few who don't. I was surprised after two of my in-law relatives from CA (who are two of the biggest lefty socialists you can find) said they were against Obama's government run health care. Why? because they do not want to pay for those folks who don't take proper care of themselves or who are obese.

740 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:47:54am

Bomb explodes at wedding of Hamas rivals in Gaza

A Hamas official in Gaza says three people were detained after a small bomb exploded at the wedding party of a prominent rival to the militant group.

Palestinian medics said four people were moderately wounded and dozens lightly injured in the Tuesday night explosion. The bomb was planted under a stage used for dancing.

The wedding was for a nephew of Fatah strongman Mohammed Dahlan. Hamas believe Dahlan tried to overthrow their government in June 2007.

Interior ministry official Ihab Ghussein said the three were detained for questioning Wednesday.

The Palestinian news agency, run by Hamas' rival Fatah, blamed Hamas and said guests received calls to leave the party 15 minutes before the explosion.

Unfortunately, nobody was killed.

741 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:47:57am

re: #731 MandyManners

And, government-approved euthenasia.

Well I kind of view these as being nearly identical in outcome, duration of time being the primary distinguishing factor.

742 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:48:05am

re: #731 MandyManners

And, government-approved REQUIRED euthenasia.

FTFY

smoke break BBIAB

743 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:48:07am

re: #728 wahabicorridor

That asshole actually tried to spin that the numbers being tossed around - like $23 trillion - really don't matter - it was the same 'doing nothing is not an option' crappola

HIYA PINK FREUD!

oh, you saw him too. Yeah the old no one knows for sure so lets just pass this thing and see what happens.

744 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:48:12am

re: #717 redstateredneck

Sebelius was dancing all around the question of rationing this morning on Fox & Friends. She said healthcare is "rationed" now because of the exorbitant costs that keep many people out of the system.

Sebelius is dangerous, because she comes across sometimes as a "reasonable" liberal. They are to be feared. Be afraid, be very afraid.

745 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:48:23am

re: #719 MandyManners

What if you refuse counselling? Will that end your coverage?

As I understand it, it is a requirement of the coverage. And I believe they can fine you $2,500 a year if you do not have coverage.

746 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:48:56am

re: #721 MandyManners

That reminds me...If this god-awful plan becomes reality and it does include illegals, what does that mean for the debate over illegal immigration? Can someone really be "illegal" if they are enrolled in the Fed. health care plan? Do they get an SSN (or it's equivalent) in order to enroll?
Backdoor amnesty?

747 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:49:02am

re: #732 turn

Well call me fooled then Walter, he and his handlers are fucking up big time on the economy.

And I didn't mean that to be nasty, I was just making a point. I don't trust when this guy looks like he's failing, it seems to contrived.

748 pink freud  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:49:05am

re: #728 wahabicorridor

Goodmorning Wahabi!

How's that fat beagle?

749 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:49:31am

re: #720 Pianobuff

And some state medical associations are now breaking away from the AMA and coming out against Obamacare. Let's hope the "hey, wait a minute here" crowd wakes up and adds its voice to the mix.

Hasn't the Mayo Clinic refused to go along with FCBBHO?

750 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:49:58am

re: #680 iceweasel

Forecast predicts a high probability of the phrase "the false arguments of the past/yeateryear" being uttered.

751 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:50:08am

re: #739 FrogMarch

Point? It's a good run-down of Obama's lies and half-truths.
I realize most lefty/liberals want government control. I know a few who don't. I was surprised after two of my in-law relatives from CA (who are two of the biggest lefty socialists you can find) said they were against Obama's government run health care. Why? because they do not want to pay for those folks who don't take proper care of themselves or who are obese.

Nice "can't we all get along." The compassionate left, huh?

752 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:50:21am

re: #730 redstateredneck

Oh, yeah! I forgot about her.

FREE THE VEGANS!

753 FrogMarch  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:50:29am

re: #727 turn

Morning FM, another one that gets me is "deficit neutral", yeah right.

I swear the left spend most of their energy sitting around brain-storming the best way to bullshit the people with their semantics and rhetorically flourished bullshit.

754 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:50:32am

re: #749 MandyManners

Hasn't the Mayo Clinic refused to go along with FCBBHO?

Yes.

755 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:51:23am

re: #736 Walter L. Newton
Parrots are cool. My aunt has one. He's got a fair vocabulary.

756 FrogMarch  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:52:04am

re: #751 Walter L. Newton

Nice "can't we all get along." The compassionate left, huh?

It's all gimme gimme gimme - until they are the ones who have to pay up.

757 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:52:15am

AMA TAKES HARMFUL PILL

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

The AMA are a bunch of whores ( my apologies to any whores here ) as is the ADA.

758 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:52:19am

re: #746 lincolntf

That reminds me...If this god-awful plan becomes reality and it does include illegals, what does that mean for the debate over illegal immigration? Can someone really be "illegal" if they are enrolled in the Fed. health care plan? Do they get an SSN (or it's equivalent) in order to enroll?
Backdoor amnesty?

The plan won't cover illegals. It would cover legal immigrants, naturalised citizens and they may make exceptions for the children of illegals.

Obama: No Health Care for Illegal Immigrants

(But note that Obama does want to make it easier for illegals to get citizenship also)

759 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:52:27am

re: #736 Walter L. Newton

Maisey the Parrot survived the move. She seems to be comfortable here. The two cats don't appear to be a problem like we expected, they are afraid of her and have spent very little time in the upper part of the house since Maisey arrived.

Two of the dogs appear to be very protective of her, but the dingo mix, there is no doubt he wants to eat her.

That's different than we expected. Dogs have always gotten along with Maisey.

Let Maisey give him a little bite with that beak and he'll change his mind.

760 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:52:57am

re: #741 Pianobuff

Well I kind of view these as being nearly identical in outcome, duration of time being the primary distinguishing factor.

Those bastards would already have denied my mom coverage--three weeks in ICU and one week in a regular room and the bill likely is well over $500,000.00.

761 formercorpsman  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:53:20am

re: #668 iceweasel

Ice, the last sentence of what you just posted illustrates more clearly than anything else why the concept of allowing the government to gain even more control of this industry is a terrible idea from the outset.

Both of those programs you mention were lobbied in their own time as a solution to the very same people the current debacle is meant to help now, with the same argument used as justification.

I can go on for days, because this is my backyard. In my world, the very fact you need to fix the first government program with a second government program is an example of a bad plan.

Bottom line, it will not go well.

762 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:53:23am

re: #669 3 wood

I'm setting the over/under on some propositional bets for tonight's speech.

1. Times Obama blames Bush - 3

2. Times Obama uses the word "inherited" - 4

3. Times the MSM asks "questions" that basically says that they want to shine his shoes in camera - 6

4. "Uuh's" from the One - 40

5. "Let me make this perfectly clear - 18

763 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:53:25am

re: #750 Kenneth

Don't forget that everybody but the Government will be snidely dismissed as a "special interest group".
You know, people like me who have a special interest in not getting financially screwed and then thrown into some bureacratic limbo whenever I get hurt or sick.

764 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:53:28am

re: #733 realwest

Little grumpy myself, the dog decided I was on HIS side of the bed last night at 3AM, but I'm bigger.
I'll see you around, gotta get for just a bit.

765 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:53:57am

re: #749 MandyManners

Hasn't the Mayo Clinic refused to go along with FCBBHO?

Why yes they have. And since Obama's praise for Mayo, followed by Mayo's rejection of Obamacare, CNN attempted to discredit a Canadian cancer patient who received treatment in the U.S. after being told by Canada's healthcare system to shut up and take her place in line.

Funny how the media works.

766 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:53:59am

re: #750 Kenneth

Forecast predicts a high probability of the phrase "the false arguments of the past/yeateryear" being uttered.

Scattered scowls mixed with sunny forecasts are also predicted. :)

767 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:54:08am

re: #675 Walter L. Newton

Dogs walked, whew, that felt good.

Sounds like you relieved yourself./

768 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:54:10am

re: #745 3 wood

As I understand it, it is a requirement of the coverage. And I believe they can fine you $2,500 a year if you do not have coverage.

Fox had a clip of a man (last name IIRC was Broadus) in Maryland who went after his representative about that fine.

769 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:54:42am

re: #725 MandyManners

How about the vegetarian who was refused a pasta dish and then ordered to eat a burger?

Pasta is cheaper than meat.

770 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:55:07am

re: #768 MandyManners

Fox had a clip of a man (last name IIRC was Broadus) in Maryland who went after his representative about that fine.

Sen. Cardin.

771 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:55:07am

re: #705 Walter L. Newton
He may (or may not ) be over his handler's heads, but he is sure as hell over his.
Rushing through Stimulus and trying to rush through Cap and Trade (both egregiously LOONG pieces of legislation) and now Healthcare "reform" which few if any understand, methinks Obama and his handlers have met their Waterloo (ok, that's not original with me but I can't remember who said it) his trust ratings are way down even though his personal popularity is still up there. That's because the American people, in spite of the MSM, have finally awoken to the fact that Obama is rushing PURE UNADULTERATED SHIT through Congress without giving congresscritters time to read it or the public time to let their voices be heard.
Oh and btw, my Congresscritter Sue Myrick (R-NC) introduced an amendment requiring that POTUS and Congress have to take Obamacare and pay for it themselves! Yea, Sue!
And she wants a roll call vote on the Amendment - she won't get it,of course, but nothing says elistism and progressiveness like all for thee, none for me!

772 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:55:16am

Nice, the Norks maybe helping the dictatorship there in Myanmar work on their own A bomb.

773 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:55:19am

re: #737 BlueCanuck

Oh, one other thing. The doctors are not government employees. They are paid by the government for patients seen, and procedures done. They set up private practices and forward all bills to the government insurance.

Are the doctors capitated per patient or are they paid per services?
It sounds like the latter.

774 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:55:41am

re: #768 MandyManners

Fox had a clip of a man (last name IIRC was Broadus) in Maryland who went after his representative about that fine.

I saw that.

775 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:55:44am

re: #746 lincolntf

That reminds me...If this god-awful plan becomes reality and it does include illegals, what does that mean for the debate over illegal immigration? Can someone really be "illegal" if they are enrolled in the Fed. health care plan? Do they get an SSN (or it's equivalent) in order to enroll?
Backdoor amnesty?

I see it as a step toward back-door amnesty.

776 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:56:01am

How the hell did I get 80 comments behind already?!
Hey y'all PLEASE STOP TYPING JUST FOR 5 minutes!

777 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:56:09am

Ludwig speaks for me when he cites Rambam's view on the compatibility of science and understanding of Torah. Klinghoffer clearly doesn't understand what Rambam did - bridging the gap between science and Torah and that the two are not mutually exclusive. Both help understand the world around us and the Torah is there to provide spiritual guidance and a moral and ethical foundation to understand the world around us.

778 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:56:27am

re: #747 Walter L. Newton

And I didn't mean that to be nasty, I was just making a point. I don't trust when this guy looks like he's failing, it seems to contrived.

Oh, well just about everything about him seems contrived to me. How the hell did this guy every get elected - it's all smoke and mirrors.

779 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:56:44am

Washingtonosis (n)...
[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

780 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:56:59am

FNC showing the wonderful(/) NHS system in Britain.

781 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:57:10am

re: #709 pingjockey
Hey! Hi ya ping! How are you feeling today?!

782 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:57:11am

re: #758 iceweasel

I wonder if he's using the 0-25 years old standard for "children"? That's the standard MA applied when they had some pro-illegal children legislation floating around a while ago.
Even if he's not, that means that not only existing illegals but every new young person who breaches our borders will automatically be rewarded with health insurance?

783 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:57:21am

re: #772 pingjockey

Nice, the Norks maybe helping the dictatorship there in Myanmar work on their own A bomb.

More likely they are building alternate facilities for themselves there. Maybe somebody should tell what's her name Hill something or other who wants to make nicy nice with the folks in Mynamar?

784 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:57:21am

re: #754 Nevergiveup

Hasn't FCBBHO been meeting IN PRIVATE with the heads of hospitals and pharmaceutical companies in direct opposition to his promise during the campaign to hold these meetings in public?

785 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:57:28am

re: #773 opnion

I think there may be a limit on how much they can bill overall to Healthcare on a yearly basis. It's not restricted to amount per patient, but amount total. You get some people that see the doctor on a monthly basis. Then you get people like me that see the doctor every two years or so.

786 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:57:38am

re: #749 MandyManners

Hasn't the Mayo Clinic refused to go along with FCBBHO?

Yes.

Mayo Clinic calls House plan bad medicine

787 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:58:16am

re: #757 Nevergiveup

AMA TAKES HARMFUL PILL

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

The AMA are a bunch of whores ( my apologies to any whores here ) as is the ADA.

We all know about the abysmal state of British dental care.

788 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:58:36am

re: #784 MandyManners

Hasn't FCBBHO been meeting IN PRIVATE with the heads of hospitals and pharmaceutical companies in direct opposition to his promise during the campaign to hold these meetings in public?


Hell, he was gonna televise them! Funny how he forgot that campaign promise.

789 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:58:41am

re: #718 Walter L. Newton

Wait, wait, wait... your Canadian health care doesn't cover scripts? You pay fully out of pocket if the government doctors order something for you?

Yes indeed. Prescription medication is not covered by Canadian medicare. However, if you are on welfare you can get gov't funding for meds. Most people have some coverage for drugs (and dental, vision, physiotherapy etc) from an employee health insurance plan, which is payed for by contributions by the employer and the employee. The working poor & self-employed get screwed royally, as they have no private coverage.

Note: doctors in Canada are not exactly "government doctors". They are not employed by the government. Doctors working from their own offices or clinics are independent self-employed professionals who submit their bills to the gov't and are payed according to a schedule of procedures, services & fees, set by the government. Doctors who work at hospitals are employees of the hospital, which are institutions run by the hospital boards, which ultimately answer to the government.

790 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:58:42am

re: #784 MandyManners

Hasn't FCBBHO been meeting IN PRIVATE with the heads of hospitals and pharmaceutical companies in direct opposition to his promise during the campaign to hold these meetings in public?

Would not surprise me one bit

791 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:58:47am

re: #768 MandyManners

Fox had a clip of a man (last name IIRC was Broadus) in Maryland who went after his representative about that fine.


And did you notice how the Representative answered the question? He attacked the questioner.

These congress critters have forgotten that they work for us.

792 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:58:48am

re: #753 FrogMarch

I swear the left spend most of their energy sitting around brain-storming the best way to bullshit the people with their semantics and rhetorically flourished bullshit.

You got that right, word smithing experts they are. I used to love the way Bush spoke, straight for the heart and no bullshit or pussy footing around about it.

793 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:59:06am

re: #776 realwest
I just hate when that happens. Heh, FNC is showing some of us GUM folks going after our elected reps about this obama care.
GUM = Great Unwashed Masses as the elites think of their fellow citizens.

794 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:59:18am

re: #753 FrogMarch

I swear the left spend most of their energy sitting around brain-storming the best way to bullshit the people with their semantics and rhetorically flourished bullshit.


agreed...it's a major symptom and one I have the greatest resentment for...don't piss down my back etc

795 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:59:36am

re: #748 pink freud

Goodmorning Wahabi!

How's that fat beagle?

Oh, she's so much better. She started the steroids on the 7th. She'll be on antibiotics thru this Friday. We found a low fiber food she likes and she feels GREAT.

And we're ALL sleeping thru the nite.

796 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:59:37am

re: #787 MandyManners

We all know about the abysmal state of British dental care.

In general yes, and it is 2 tiered. There are still Private Dentists for the well healed.

797 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 6:59:54am

re: #765 Pianobuff

Why yes they have. And since Obama's praise for Mayo, followed by Mayo's rejection of Obamacare, CNN attempted to discredit a Canadian cancer patient who received treatment in the U.S. after being told by Canada's healthcare system to shut up and take her place in line.

Funny how the media works.

See my No. 854. Fox ran a clip of him promising televised negotiations with the heads of hospitals and pharmaceuticals.

798 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:00:08am

re: #787 MandyManners

We all know about the abysmal state of British dental care.

Oh, that's another thing not covered by our Healthcare system. Dental is seperate, unless it's an emergency and done in hospital for same reasons. Typical needs and such are extra.

799 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:00:28am

Opinion piece worth reading about ObamaCare by John Stossel titled "Arrogance".

It's crazy for a group of mere mortals to try to design 15 percent of the U.S. economy. It's even crazier to do it by August.

Yet that is what some members of Congress presume to do. They intend, as the New York Times puts it, "to reinvent the nation's health care system".

Let that sink in. A handful of people who probably never even ran a small business actually think they can reinvent the health care system.

Politicians and bureaucrats clearly have no idea how complicated markets are. Every day people make countless tradeoffs, in all areas of life, based on subjective value judgments and personal information as they delicately balance their interests, needs and wants. Who is in a better position than they to tailor those choices to best serve their purposes? Yet the politicians believe they can plan the medical market the way you plan a birthday party.


Towards the end...


Like the politicians, most people are oblivious to F.A. Hayek's insight that the critical information needed to run an economy -- or even 15 percent of one -- doesn't exist in any one place where it is accessible to central planners. Instead, it is scattered piecemeal among millions of people. All those people put together are far wiser and better informed than Congress could ever be. Only markets -- private property, free exchange and the price system -- can put this knowledge at the disposal of entrepreneurs and consumers, ensuring the system will serve the people and not just the political class.

This is no less true for medical care than for food, clothing and shelter. It is profit-seeking entrepreneurship that gave us birth control pills, robot limbs, Lasik surgery and so many other good things that make our lives longer and more pain free.

To the extent the politicians ignore this, they are the enemy of our well-being. The belief that they can take care of us is rank superstition.

Who will save us from these despots? What Adam Smith said about the economic planner applies here, too: The politician who tries to design the medical marketplace would "assume an authority which could safely be trusted, not only to no single person, but to no council or senate whatever, and which would nowhere be so dangerous as in the hands of a man who had folly and presumption enough to fancy himself fit to exercise it."

More at the link above.

800 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:00:47am

re: #780 pingjockey

FNC showing the wonderful(/) NHS system in Britain.


Any time anybody shows or cites examples of the travesty of Government run healthcare, the Obama people always scream about fear mongering.
We actually should fear a government take over. The poponents can't point to one place where outcomes have improved.

801 formercorpsman  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:00:49am

re: #760 MandyManners

Recognize though Mandy, just because the bill might state that much, that is not what is being paid out. Not even close.

The problem in a nutshell, is that in order for the politicians who want their resume to reflect that they were part of the solution for giving everyone free healthcare, (so noble) do not want the same resume to reflect they placed your children in debt, or taxed you to do so.

This will flesh out on who gets paid to perform the service. They will lead to rationing, denial of care, and retardation of advancements.

802 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:01:01am

re: #769 Alouette

Pasta is cheaper than meat.

I thought that was kinda' strange but, I think it was done to show folks that their desires and needs will be ignored.

803 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:01:25am

re: #784 MandyManners

Hasn't FCBBHO been meeting IN PRIVATE with the heads of hospitals and pharmaceutical companies in direct opposition to his promise during the campaign to hold these meetings in public?

I believe he met privately with the CBO as well. I'm still trying to find out if this is a no-no given the role of the CBO.

804 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:01:34am

re: #717 redstateredneck
Sebelius is full of shit. Period.
I shouldn't get cancer care just because some people have decided for themselves not to get healthcare (see FrogMarch's Five Lies About Healthcare up above)?
I am not gonna let some asshole like Sebelius or anyone else decide it's ok if I die just so some illegal alien or junkie can get health care.

805 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:02:18am

re: #797 MandyManners

See my No. 854. Fox ran a clip of him promising televised negotiations with the heads of hospitals and pharmaceuticals.

Why does this remind me of a Potemkin village.

806 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:02:23am

UNCLE!

807 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:02:23am

re: #771 realwest

methinks Obama and his handlers have met their Waterloo (ok, that's not original with me but I can't remember who said it)

Jim DeMint. Picked up now by Newt Gingrich too.

The people who voted for Obama did so overwhelmingly because of the promise of health care reform. This really is make-or-break for Obama. The GOP has to do whatever they can to stop it.

Also, the GOP is being helped out by numerous Blue Dogs.

Personally, I'm sceptical that any health care reform will pass. If it does I think it's likely to be a completely bastardised version. Also, I think in general the Washington establishment-- and I mean Democrats as well as Republicans-- are interested in serving the needs of the economic elite. The health care industries don't want this to go through, and they have a lot of friends on both sides. (Jim DeMint received almost 3 million dollars in contributions from health care lobbyists since 2004).

So I don't expect anything to pass-- or if something does limp through, I think it's likely to suck.

808 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:02:34am

i heard a clip on the mark levin show yesterday. o was speaking to left wing bloggers. someone asked him a question abt. an article in 'investors business daily", that said people will end up not getting to keep their private coverage for very long once the gov't takes over.' the guy even referenced the page number of the prov. in the h.c. bill p.16. iirc
o's answer was simply that he "was not familiar w/ the provision." LOL
how the fck is is possible that o is relentlessly pushing this, and he is "not familiar" w/ such an important part of the bill that would so detrimentally affect so many american citizens? ? ? ?
o has no idea what is in this bill. but he does know if he can get it passed, it is a big power grab for gov't, w/ 2.4 trillion dollars of money spent annually, that he can get his hands on.
the kind of rationed, low quality gov't health care that people will have to endure is immaterial to the commie o.
commies do not care abt. people, they care abt. more and more power
and o is insatiable.

809 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:02:36am

re: #781 realwest

Kinda odd. Don't know if it's anxiety or the chemo making the butterflies have a convention in my gut! Other than that okay. Saw the cutest thing yesterday. Was up in the chemo room and this guy came in and had a therapy dog. It was a Teacup Yorkie. Just made everybodies day see that little cutie. If I ever hit the redneck retirement fund (lottery) the local humane society gets a cut and the folks that provide the therapy dogs get some too.

810 pink freud  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:02:45am

re: #795 wahabicorridor

This is all wonderful news, Wahabi! You must be breathing easier now. :-)

811 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:02:47am

Employer Health Care Mandates: Taxing Low-Income Workers to Pay for Health Care

Congressional advocates of the latest health care reform proposal claim that it will not cost ordinary Americans more--the costs will be borne by "the rich" and by employers. After all, both the House and the Senate versions require employers who do not provide health benefits to pay higher taxes.

But the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) recently reported what economists have long known: Regardless of who is formally required to pay, the burden of these taxes and costs will ultimately fall primarily on employees through lower wages. An employer mandate does not give workers without health insurance something for nothing but rather forces them to purchase it out of their wages whether they like it or not--and no matter how low those wages are. Congressional rhetoric to the contrary, much of the burden of paying for an employer mandate will fall on ordinary Americans, and lower-income workers will be hit the hardest.

812 FrogMarch  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:02:48am

re: #727 turn

Morning FM, another one that gets me is "deficit neutral", yeah right.

&...
Tonight's drinking game must include: "DEFICIT NEUTRAL".

813 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:03:25am

re: #803 Pianobuff

I believe he met privately with the CBO as well. I'm still trying to find out if this is a no-no given the role of the CBO.

I posted about that earlier today. From what I've gathered, it's not right to call the Congressional employee on the executive carpet.

814 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:03:46am

re: #763 lincolntf

"special interest group" , noun: 1. anybody deemed inconvenient to Obama, 2. anyone who disagrees in anyway with Obama, 3. taxpayers.

815 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:03:47am

re: #800 opnion
Facts kinda get in the way!

816 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:04:33am

re: #796 Nevergiveup

In general yes, and it is 2 tiered. There are still Private Dentists for the well healed.

The money shot to all of the reps that tout this bill as good for us. "Will you be giving up your coverage to take part in this wonderful program?" If not then fuck off!

817 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:04:42am

re: #775 MandyManners

I see it as a step toward back-door amnesty.

two words...
Sotomayor

818 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:05:00am

re: #734 pingjockey
Send 'em all to Washington D.C.; if the stench coming out of Congress and the White House doesn't kill 'em, the killed bees may solve our National Healthcare Nightmare!/

819 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:05:08am

re: #777 lawhawk

I gave you a dign on that LH, simply because I didn't understand a word you said. ha

820 johnnyreb  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:05:15am

re: #782 lincolntf

I wonder if he's using the 0-25 years old standard for "children"? That's the standard MA applied when they had some pro-illegal children legislation floating around a while ago.
Even if he's not, that means that not only existing illegals but every new young person who breaches our borders will automatically be rewarded with health insurance?

That was also the "standard" age for children when the AMA was going after guns at home. That included all the gang banger deaths of anyone aged 25 or under by handguns. That pretty much back fired when they did it then.

821 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:05:19am

re: #808 nyc redneck

I saw that, too. Never before has someone missed so much after promising to review bills "line-by-line".

I'm beginning to wonder if the "lines" he was talking about were of the Colombian variety.

822 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:05:42am

re: #785 BlueCanuck

I think there may be a limit on how much they can bill overall to Healthcare on a yearly basis. It's not restricted to amount per patient, but amount total. You get some people that see the doctor on a monthly basis. Then you get people like me that see the doctor every two years or so.


Interesting. I used to know a Canadian doctor who would head to Florida to pratice fee for Service when his provincial plan hit it's cap.
He said that lots of his patients went down there & everybody else just had to wait.

823 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:05:49am

re: #809 pingjockey

Kinda odd. Don't know if it's anxiety or the chemo making the butterflies have a convention in my gut! Other than that okay. Saw the cutest thing yesterday. Was up in the chemo room and this guy came in and had a therapy dog. It was a Teacup Yorkie. Just made everybodies day see that little cutie. If I ever hit the redneck retirement fund (lottery) the local humane society gets a cut and the folks that provide the therapy dogs get some too.

ROTFLMAO

824 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:06:30am

re: #807 iceweasel

Jim DeMint. Picked up now by Newt Gingrich too.

The people who voted for Obama did so overwhelmingly because of the promise of health care reform. This really is make-or-break for Obama. The GOP has to do whatever they can to stop it.

Also, the GOP is being helped out by numerous Blue Dogs.

Personally, I'm sceptical that any health care reform will pass. If it does I think it's likely to be a completely bastardised version. Also, I think in general the Washington establishment-- and I mean Democrats as well as Republicans-- are interested in serving the needs of the economic elite. The health care industries don't want this to go through, and they have a lot of friends on both sides. (Jim DeMint received almost 3 million dollars in contributions from health care lobbyists since 2004).

So I don't expect anything to pass-- or if something does limp through, I think it's likely to suck.

Vis a vis the emboldened text, I would go further and say that they need to present a strong alternative to the package. If somehow an alternative reform package went in through the R's and Blue Dogs and actually got passed and signed, that would be a win too.

825 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:07:03am

re: #813 MandyManners

I posted about that earlier today. From what I've gathered, it's not right to call the Congressional employee on the executive carpet.

You've got game today. Cranked out on caffeine, are we?

826 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:07:05am

re: #816 VegasRick

The money shot to all of the reps that tout this bill as good for us. "Will you be giving up your coverage to take part in this wonderful program?" If not then fuck off!

Exactly. And as I said before, if our reps don't know each and every word of this monstrosity, then they should be taken outside and drawn and quartered.

827 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:07:13am

re: #816 VegasRick
Spot on. If the congress critters ain't gonna use it, why should it be forced on us. Then again, congress has the habit of exempting themselves from laws they pass for the rest of us. Assholes.

828 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:07:15am

Scare tactics and what compulsory coverage really means. The Democrats keep complaining that people like myself are engaging in scare tactics when we attack the health care plan as an unmitigated disaster.

Yet, it is these same Democrats, President Obama prime among them, who demand passage immediately in order to stave off some imagined disaster down the road.

The only disaster here is the one immediately before us- the health care bill itself.

This bill mandates compulsory coverage. That means that if you are among the uninsured now, you must have coverage. If you're poor, there will be waivers and discounts, but if you're in the middle class and don't meet the income thresholds, you will be out of luck. You will be penalized heavily and that is a tax in all but name. It is massive tax on millions of people, and it violates everything that Obama said on the campaign trail.

He lied. Of course he lied. He wanted to get elected. He now wants to impose government health care, despite the fact that there's nothing wrong with the quality of care offered in the nation and that everyone has access to health care when they need it - the only gripe is the cost. This bill does nothing to address cost in a way that maintains quality or access.

Obama's statements come with an expiration date. They all do. It's time people see this for what it is - a massive tax and spend redistribution of wealth that doesn't improve health care at all.

829 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:07:21am

The best quote I've heard this week was when someone on CNBC coined the term "Kremlinomics".

/pass the ham

830 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:07:53am

re: #808 nyc redneck

I heard it also. Obama is a bona fide knucklehead.

831 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:08:13am

re: #824 Pianobuff

Vis a vis the emboldened text, I would go further and say that they need to present a strong alternative to the package. If somehow an alternative reform package went in through the R's and Blue Dogs and actually got passed and signed, that would be a win too.

They do have an alternative plan cooking. If you give me a chance I think I can dig up a link describing the provisions they're considering.

I don't think this package would be a win, btw, but let me find it.--

832 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:08:36am

re: #818 realwest
Mwahahaha! FNC showing some congress critters being heckled by their constituents. Mwahaha!

833 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:09:06am

re: #808 nyc redneck

Obama didn't read the bill and hasn't been kept up to date with what the bills provide, and that they all call for tax hikes on those who aren't poor and meet income levels deemed worthy of such largesse. That means that the health care bill is a massive tax hike on those people in the middle class who do not currently have health insurance and choose not to have it.

834 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:09:09am

re: #832 pingjockey

Mwahahaha! FNC showing some congress critters being heckled by their constituents. Mwahaha!

Listen to it . It's great. he is a moron and the audience knows it.

835 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:09:22am

re: #745 3 wood

As I understand it, it is a requirement of the coverage. And I believe they can fine you $2,500 a year if you do not have coverage.

Charming, just effin charming.

Remember folks, THE DEMOCRATS OWN THIS - they can't lay healthcare at Bush's feet. Can't even try with a semi-straight face. They also OWN Cap and Trade which doesn't even acknowledge that of all the alternative fuels out there, the only alternative fuel, PROVEN to provide enough electrical power for the US is Nuclear Power.

836 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:09:42am

Good morning.

837 formercorpsman  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:09:50am

re: #822 opnion

More interesting in what you mentioned, is the fact that the Canadian economy lost that revenue by forcing such policy.

838 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:10:05am

re: #815 pingjockey

Facts kinda get in the way!

In this Brave New World, facts are messy & must be ignored.

839 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:10:51am

re: #834 Nevergiveup

Listen to it . It's great. he is a moron and the audience knows it.

I love the way they just laugh at him. He looks like a moronic stooge.

840 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:11:08am

Share %P%
Last update - 13:33 22/07/2009

Israeli rabbis to U.S. Jews: Sway Obama administration in our favor

By Haaretz Service

Tags: U.S., Shlomo Amar, Rabbis


A group of Israeli rabbis, headed by Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar, have sent a letter to U.S. rabbis and the President's Conference, urging them to exert political leverage in Israel's favor, Israel Radio reported on Wednesday.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

I hate to break the news to ya, but most of the liberal Jews here are hopeless. Don't waste the fuel.

841 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:11:15am

re: #749 MandyManners

Hasn't the Mayo Clinic refused to go along with FCBBHO?


Well they've come out in written opposition to it. Don't think if it becomes law they will have much choice, 'cept to join the rest of us lawbreakers.

842 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:11:58am

re: #803 Pianobuff

I believe he met privately with the CBO as well. I'm still trying to find out if this is a no-no given the role of the CBO.

He's meeting with the director of the CBO today.

843 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:12:07am

If you like the coverage you have, you can keep it.

/of course, it'll be way more expensive than the "public plan" and eventually your private insurer will be driven off the playing field

844 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:12:32am

re: #812 FrogMarch

&...
Tonight's drinking game must include: "DEFICIT NEUTRAL".

Do you think we'll hear a sob story, say, about a single parent who was denied coverage for various ailments by her evil insurance company and now has permanent disabilities.

845 SixDegrees  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:12:40am

re: #824 Pianobuff

Vis a vis the emboldened text, I would go further and say that they need to present a strong alternative to the package. If somehow an alternative reform package went in through the R's and Blue Dogs and actually got passed and signed, that would be a win too.

I would say that an acceptable alternative at this juncture would be to simply suggest that a system operated by the private sector will be more efficient and more desirable, as well as cause less disruption, than one operated by the public sector. Details can be put off until the current incipient system trainwrecks. Derailing the current proposal should be Job 1 at this point.

846 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:13:17am

re: #804 realwest

Sebelius is full of shit. Period.
I shouldn't get cancer care just because some people have decided for themselves not to get healthcare (see FrogMarch's Five Lies About Healthcare up above)?
I am not gonna let some asshole like Sebelius or anyone else decide it's ok if I die just so some illegal alien or junkie can get health care.

I'm in total agreement with you, {real}.

847 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:13:26am

Dems running into irate constituents over ObamaCare

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

848 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:14:02am

re: #843 Killian Bundy

If you like the coverage you have, you can keep it.

/of course, it'll be way more expensive than the "public plan" and eventually your private insurer will be driven off the playing field

It's like saying to me after they would theoretically start a "public" dental clinic down the street that I can stay open but I can NOT except any new patients? Do the democrats think we are all morons? Yeah I know, it's rhetorical.

849 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:14:07am

Any of y'all ever see Snakes on a Plane? Well there were scorpions on a plane! I'd Like to hear Samuel L. Jackson say that there are M***r F***g Scorpions on the M***R F***G Plane!

850 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:14:16am

Ooh, Chris Dodd on the TV meting out the blame for the housing bubble and financial crisis.

/the very definition of irony

851 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:14:27am

re: #844 KenJen

Yup.

852 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:14:33am

re: #807 iceweasel

Jim DeMint. Picked up now by Newt Gingrich too.

The people who voted for Obama did so overwhelmingly because of the promise of health care reform. This really is make-or-break for Obama. The GOP has to do whatever they can to stop it.

Also, the GOP is being helped out by numerous Blue Dogs.

Personally, I'm sceptical that any health care reform will pass. If it does I think it's likely to be a completely bastardised version. Also, I think in general the Washington establishment-- and I mean Democrats as well as Republicans-- are interested in serving the needs of the economic elite. The health care industries don't want this to go through, and they have a lot of friends on both sides. (Jim DeMint received almost 3 million dollars in contributions from health care lobbyists since 2004).

So I don't expect anything to pass-- or if something does limp through, I think it's likely to suck.

Hi, IW. Agree with everything you said except the highlighted part. Which is part of the reason I don't think it will pass.

853 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:14:47am

re: #836 Flyers1974

Good morning.

hey Flyers. What's up?

854 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:15:29am

re: #787 MandyManners
Great Britain has dental care? Really? huh.

855 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:15:34am

re: #807 iceweasel

I agree with you that Washington isn't going to fix the issues with healthcare. There are too many vested interests

Last October, I was at a political debate prep meeting, and one of the other gentlemen involved was a doctor who made a really interesting remark to us about how republicans should speak in regards to the issue he as a doctor saw. He said we needed to use the democrats' rhetoric and speak of medical choice- that there were too many people standing between him and his patients. It was thought provoking, for me, anyways.

Also- check your email.

856 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:16:26am

re: #850 Killian Bundy
Where was his butt buddy Bwaney Fwank? He was in it up to his eyeballs too.

857 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:16:42am

re: #828 lawhawk

There are some actual reforms that could be done without trashing the entire healthcare delivery system.
Poor women could be given agressive pre & neonatal counseling & asisstance.
Competition in RX could be promoted.
Provisions for the uninsured that can't afford coverage could be implemented.
Our healthcare system produces the best outcomes in the World.
It is criminal to trash it because of some egalitarian delusion of our very immature Preident.

858 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:16:56am

Clinton: U.S. Will Extend 'Defense Umbrella' Over Gulf if Iran Obtains Nuclear Weapons
Secretary of state warns Iran that the United States would extend a "defense umbrella" over its allies in the Persian Gulf if the Islamic Republic obtains a nuclear weapons capability.

By James Rosen

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

For those of you who don't understand surrenderese: We just raised the white flag and gave up.

859 FrogMarch  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:17:05am

re: #828 lawhawk

Scare tactics and what compulsory coverage really means. The Democrats keep complaining that people like myself are engaging in scare tactics when we attack the health care plan as an unmitigated disaster.

Yet, it is these same Democrats, President Obama prime among them, who demand passage immediately in order to stave off some imagined disaster down the road.

The only disaster here is the one immediately before us- the health care bill itself.

Why can't the dems promise to fix Medicaid and Medicare first? - oh and sure up Social Security? They want to heap this disaster on us without fixing other broken/unsustainable/going-bankrupt government run programs. It's as if the mob is running the show.

This bill mandates compulsory coverage. That means that if you are among the uninsured now, you must have coverage. If you're poor, there will be waivers and discounts, but if you're in the middle class and don't meet the income thresholds, you will be out of luck. You will be penalized heavily and that is a tax in all but name. It is massive tax on millions of people, and it violates everything that Obama said on the campaign trail.

He lied. Of course he lied. He wanted to get elected. He now wants to impose government health care, despite the fact that there's nothing wrong with the quality of care offered in the nation and that everyone has access to health care when they need it - the only gripe is the cost. This bill does nothing to address cost in a way that maintains quality or access.

Obama's statements come with an expiration date. They all do. It's time people see this for what it is - a massive tax and spend redistribution of wealth that doesn't improve health care at all.

860 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:17:08am

re: #835 realwest

Charming, just effin charming.

Remember folks, THE DEMOCRATS OWN THIS - they can't lay healthcare at Bush's feet. Can't even try with a semi-straight face. They also OWN Cap and Trade which doesn't even acknowledge that of all the alternative fuels out there, the only alternative fuel, PROVEN to provide enough electrical power for the US is Nuclear Power.

Yup. And it's okay for Iran to explore nuclear power because they need it (after all, where else is a country like Iran going to find fuel sources?) Of course they're not going to build nuclear weapons, just power plants!

But it's wrong for us to build more reactors, because nuclear power is EVIL!

861 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:17:13am

re: #764 SasquatchOnSteroids

Little grumpy myself, the dog decided I was on HIS side of the bed last night at 3AM, but I'm bigger.
I'll see you around, gotta get for just a bit.

I thought the dog's half of the bed was the middle half.

862 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:17:50am

Here's the question of the day that Obama should be asked during his upcoming pressers:

Your party controls the White House, has a 38+ seat margin in the House, and has the 60 Senate seats needed to overcome any filibuster. How can Republicans be holding up health care reform?

Indeed.

Yet, don't expect anyone in the audience to raise that question. It would be far too uncomfortable for Obama and the Democrats to concede that they own this mess. They broke the economy. They own it.*

*Pottery Barn rules apply.

863 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:17:59am

re: #821 lincolntf

I saw that, too. Never before has someone missed so much after promising to review bills "line-by-line".

I'm beginning to wonder if the "lines" he was talking about were of the Colombian variety.

his arrogance and stupidity are astounding. look how in just a few months he has been carried on a throne everywhere he wants to go. no one has opposed him in any of his runaway gov't power grabs. and now when he is meeting resistance he still feels confident enough to actually say he is NOT familiar w/ such an important prov. in the bill. he is spoiled. it is disgusting. he thinks he can say he is not familiar w/ key parts of the bill and still get it passed.
this is o's idea of "reform" and he doesn't know what is on pg. 16? ? ?

864 legalpad  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:18:11am

re: #849 pingjockey

Any of y'all ever see Snakes on a Plane? Well there were scorpions on a plane! I'd Like to hear Samuel L. Jackson say that there are M***r F***g Scorpions on the M***R F***G Plane!

We see it now.

865 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:18:46am

re: #854 realwest
Good thing my better half isn't here. She'd post a screed a mile long about NHS medical and dental care. She was born in Wales and moved over here when she was 9.
Oh my, these folks are laughing at the congress critter. Heh.

866 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:18:47am

re: #853 iceweasel

Not much exciting here.

867 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:18:54am

re: #856 pingjockey

Where was his butt buddy Bwaney Fwank? He was in it up to his eyeballs too.

/that was yesterday, Bernanke has to sit through the Senate snorefest today

868 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:18:55am
869 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:19:37am

re: #837 formercorpsman

More interesting in what you mentioned, is the fact that the Canadian economy lost that revenue by forcing such policy.

It seems to me that they would need more taxes to continue for a full year. I wonder if the Canadian model is supported by income taxes or payroll taxes?

870 haakondahl  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:19:40am

re: #668 iceweasel

I'm not so sure about this, because all the existing plans will not be affected. I also don't believe that Obama wants all the money currently going to the insurance co,'s to go to government, so much as he wants a check on the insurance co.'s
Also to reign in and fix medicare and medicaid.

ice, Howyadoin'?

Gotta disagree with you here. Believe me, all of the existing plans WILL be affected. The government will squeeze all of the other providers out of business. Instead of government, think "Trillionaire ruthless businessman with an infinite amount of money and the power to write laws for his own benefit". Even given the most charitable interpretation, that everybody involved is doing what they think is best for the country, the people, health care as a service and an industry, etc... what it still amounts to is that the government will defend its program if it need help, which amounts to legislating against and undercutting the existing providers.
This is what market forces will cause to happen, and the market ALWAYS WINS. The market is not about money, it is about the way people make choices, in everything from purchases to mates.
This awful plan is predicated upon ignoring market forces, which is like trying to build an airplane while ignoring the laws of physics. Looks sexy on paper, but it will never fly.
Even worse than ignorace is the astounding arrogance with which progressives declare that they will bring about, or are bringing about, or have brought about things like a post-market system. You know, a capital system without all of those darned capitalists.
Obamacare will defend itself as every entity, program, or organization naturally does--it's a law of bureaucracy. It will defend itself at the expense of its competitors and at the expense of those it was intended to protect, because those who run the system will run it as mandarins, not as stakeholders.
Even if the system as proposed looked like a real winner, I would still oppose it because I do not think that it is government's place, and that government is always the last choice to accomplish anything. Our healthcare system has problems, but too little government involvement is not one of them.

Finally, if Medicare and Medicaid were businesses instead of programs, the rampant fraud and simple (non-fraudulent) abuse would be reduced by an order of magnitude.

871 SixDegrees  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:19:41am

re: #847 albusteve

Dems running into irate constituents over ObamaCare

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

It is critically important for everyone opposed to this bill to contact their representatives and let them know, regardless of that representative's current position. If they support it, they need to know they're voting against what their constituency wants; if they're wavering, they need all the support they can get to vote "No".

The next few days and weeks are critical. Dems are already making noises about putting off a vote until after the summer recess - a strong indication that they can't rope together the support needed for a decisive win. The longer the vote is put off, the more time the public has to learn about the details contained in the bill, and the less they are going to like it, let alone support it. Get your thoughts down in writing, and get them sent. Email is good for it's immediate impact, but mailed hardcopy carries a lot more weight - do both.

Public support is dropping on a daily basis, and Congressional support will follow it down if there's enough outcry.

872 formercorpsman  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:20:07am

re: #804 realwest

Real, I know your fight in this. (You know I do)

One of my concerns in this situation, is the justification of denying care sold as the responsible government controlling costs as their duty to the taxpayer.

873 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:20:16am

re: #862 lawhawk

Here's the question of the day that Obama should be asked during his upcoming pressers:
Your party controls the White House, has a 38+ seat margin in the House, and has the 60 Senate seats needed to overcome any filibuster. How can Republicans be holding up health care reform?
Indeed.

Because about 7 Blue Dog Dems want to side with the GOP on this. Also, they want it to be 'bipartisan' in the sense of having at least a couple of republicans sign on. But the real prob for it is the Dems who won't sign on.

874 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:20:18am

re: #799 Pianobuff
As I said above, if THEY had to live under Obamacare, then the Elected Officials and their minions wouldn't be in such a rush, but Obama's health care doesn't affect them PERSONALLY at all. Not One Whit. They will still get the BEST DAMNED MEDICAL, DENTAL AND EYE CARE IN THE WORD. FOR FREE.

875 FrogMarch  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:20:48am

re: #844 KenJen

Do you think we'll hear a sob story, say, about a single parent who was denied coverage for various ailments by her evil insurance company and now has permanent disabilities.

Absolutely, Yes. If you look hard enough - there are some examples of health care failures in this nation - but the answer isn't a government option.
Will Obama tell us about all of the horror stories of denied care, inadequate care, and long lines in the UK and Canada?

876 FrogMarch  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:21:38am

re: #859 FrogMarch

oops? not sure what happened there.

877 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:21:38am

re: #858 Nevergiveup

Sure looks like it.
Iran will be allowed to have nuclear weapons (which they will eventually use, I have no doubt) and we'll keep wagging our finger at them until they destroy Tel Aviv. At which point the Israelis will nuke Iran and our "defensive umbrella" will have accomplished exactly what?

878 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:21:40am

re: #858 Nevergiveup

Clinton: U.S. Will Extend 'Defense Umbrella' Over Gulf if Iran Obtains Nuclear Weapons
Secretary of state warns Iran that the United States would extend a "defense umbrella" over its allies in the Persian Gulf if the Islamic Republic obtains a nuclear weapons capability.

By James Rosen

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

For those of you who don't understand surrenderese: We just raised the white flag and gave up.

She is a weak-kneed lily-livered lying dirtbag.

879 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:21:41am

re: #801 formercorpsman
Hey my friend - please see my #874 above.

880 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:21:56am

re: #874 realwest

As I said above, if THEY had to live under Obamacare, then the Elected Officials and their minions wouldn't be in such a rush, but Obama's health care doesn't affect them PERSONALLY at all. Not One Whit. They will still get the BEST DAMNED MEDICAL, DENTAL AND EYE CARE IN THE WORD. FOR FREE.

But of course. It's the Marie Antoinette approach to healthcare.

881 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:22:18am

re: #857 opnion

Those items you speak of are worthy, but they actually cost money. If the idea is to contain costs, then something has to give. That's the problem with the way everyone seemingly conflates access to health care and the delivery of said care to the patient with the cost for said care.

People want a free ride, but nothing is free. It costs someone something. Is preventative care cost effective in the long run? Perhaps - but the longer one lives, the more money a person will spend on health care over their lifetime - a conundrum. The Democrats lie when they say that their plans will not result in rationing of care, because that's at the heart of cost control.

882 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:22:27am

I watched "Idiocracy" last night. When was this movie made, in 2006? The future is closer than they predicted. How were they able to predict the POTUS, not to mention the Sarah Palin lookalike?

883 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:22:43am

re: #824 Pianobuff

Vis a vis the emboldened text, I would go further and say that they need to present a strong alternative to the package. If somehow an alternative reform package went in through the R's and Blue Dogs and actually got passed and signed, that would be a win too.

Romney could help here. The Massachusetts system has been more expensive than expected but hasn't been the disaster Obamacare will be. In states where health care costs are more reasonable than Mass, it probably would work.
And he'd position himself well for 2012.
Even if his plan fails to pass, by 2012 when people see what a disaster Obamacare is, he'll look good.

884 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:23:01am

re: #779 albusteve

Washingtonosis (n)...
[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

I can't wait until 2010, when the next and last season of LOST begins. It will be nice to get back to reality.
/

885 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:23:02am

re: #872 formercorpsman

Good morning, haven't talked to you in a while.

886 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:23:24am

re: #870 haakondahl

Hey haak! good to see you!

You make some good points but I don't agree with you over-all (of course) :). I have a call to take, but saved this and hope we can take it up later!

BBL xoxo ice

887 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:23:29am

re: #825 Pianobuff

You've got game today. Cranked out on caffeine, are we?

I'm trying to cut down on the strength of my brew. Usually I get a buzz in my ears by the time I'm done with the first half of my first cup. Today it didn't start until I was almost done with my second one.

888 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:24:07am

re: #872 formercorpsman

In the book, the Forever War by Joe Haldeman, he starts out as a private in 1997 and with the relativistic affects comes back to earth like 30 years later and his mother is level 4, no care, too old, too sick. I can see that happening.

889 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:24:21am

re: #878 Spare O'Lake

She is a weak-kneed lily-livered lying dirtbag.

Ah stop defending her by mentioning her good points?

890 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:24:29am

re: #831 iceweasel

They do have an alternative plan cooking. If you give me a chance I think I can dig up a link describing the provisions they're considering.

I don't think this package would be a win, btw, but let me find it.--

There is no one final health care bill yet, just lots of ideas. The best thing the Dems could do is let the right use scare tactics in attaching a provision, then remove it to appear bipartisan. i.e. moving the highest tax bracket up to $500,000/year or dropping the public insurance provision. Here's Nate Silver's take on some ways it might go.

Health Care.

891 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:24:38am

re: #882 Alouette

Upding for mentioning one of my favorite comedies.

It was made in 2006, (barely) released in 2007.

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

892 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:24:57am

re: #841 realwest

Well they've come out in written opposition to it. Don't think if it becomes law they will have much choice, 'cept to join the rest of us lawbreakers.

It would help if more big-name institutions were to balk in public.

893 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:25:12am
894 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:25:21am

re: #882 Alouette

I watched "Idiocracy" last night. When was this movie made, in 2006? The future is closer than they predicted. How were they able to predict the POTUS, not to mention the Sarah Palin lookalike?

25 January 2007 (Germany) by Mike Judge (the guy who did "King of the Hill" )

895 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:25:23am

re: #807 iceweasel
Kindly see my #874 above. If this pos goes through, then our congresscritters and POTUS/ Vice-POTUS should have to use EXACTLY the same form of medical insurance/care they insist we all do.
If they don't they are charlatans, hypocrites and liars.
And they WILL COST SOME AMERICAN'S THEIR LIVES.
For NOTHING.

896 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:25:34am

re: #884 Walter L. Newton

I can't wait until 2010, when the next and last season of LOST begins. It will be nice to get back to reality.
/

I just signed up for blockbuster's version of netflix. I'm going to watch all the Lost episodes. Can't wait.

897 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:26:14am

o pushes his h.c power grab, he never gives examples of where socialized medicine works so well that we should emulated it.
there are none.

898 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:26:36am

re: #869 opnion

It seems to me that they would need more taxes to continue for a full year. I wonder if the Canadian model is supported by income taxes or payroll taxes?

Both. There are medicare deductions on our paycheck stubs. That is no anywhere enough to pay for the program, so additional funding comes from general revenue. On top of that, we pay extra for our private insurance which covers prescriptions, dental care, vision & etc.

Funding


Funding for the insurance plans comes from the general revenues of the Canadian provinces/territories, assisted by transfer payments from the federal government through the Canada Health Transfer. Some provinces charge health care premiums, but these are in effect taxes (since they are not tied to service use, nor to provincial health expenditures). The system is accordingly classified by the OECD as a tax-supported system, as opposed to the social insurance approaches used in many European countries.
899 formercorpsman  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:26:41am

re: #879 realwest

I know all too well. I have friends who took care of many politicians while stationd at Bethesda.

The stories they would tell.

900 haakondahl  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:26:54am

re: #858 Nevergiveup

Clinton: U.S. Will Extend 'Defense Umbrella' Over Gulf if Iran Obtains Nuclear Weapons
Secretary of state warns Iran that the United States would extend a "defense umbrella" over its allies in the Persian Gulf if the Islamic Republic obtains a nuclear weapons capability.

By James Rosen

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

For those of you who don't understand surrenderese: We just raised the white flag and gave up.

And paid our surrender fee with a rubber check. Just how would we
extend a "defense umbrella" over the Persian Gulf? I know of nothing which is economically, politically, or militarily feasible, much less all of the above.

Can you say Israelovakia? Jewdetenland?

901 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:27:00am

re: #890 avanti

The "scare tactics" are actually just people reading the bill.

902 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:27:09am

re: #858 Nevergiveup

Clinton: U.S. Will Extend 'Defense Umbrella' Over Gulf if Iran Obtains Nuclear Weapons
Secretary of state warns Iran that the United States would extend a "defense umbrella" over its allies in the Persian Gulf if the Islamic Republic obtains a nuclear weapons capability.

By James Rosen

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

For those of you who don't understand surrenderese: We just raised the white flag and gave up.

If that defense umbrella means missile defense, then maybe.
Oh wait, Obama doesn't want to go ahead with missile defense.
How long before the Saudis let Israel attack Iran via their airspace?
Funny, isn't it, when the Saudis are more likely to let Israel through than the Americans.

903 legalpad  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:27:17am

re: #874 realwest

As I said above, if THEY had to live under Obamacare, then the Elected Officials and their minions wouldn't be in such a rush, but Obama's health care doesn't affect them PERSONALLY at all. Not One Whit. They will still get the BEST DAMNED MEDICAL, DENTAL AND EYE CARE IN THE WORD. FOR FREE.

This special bubble congress gets to live in is disgusting. Somebody's liable to get pissed off about it if they are deprived of timely medical care.

904 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:27:25am
905 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:27:31am

re: #890 avanti

There is no one final health care bill yet, just lots of ideas. The best thing the Dems could do is let the right use scare tactics in attaching a provision, then remove it to appear bipartisan. i.e. moving the highest tax bracket up to $500,000/year or dropping the public insurance provision. Here's Nate Silver's take on some ways it might go.

Health Care.

So you're saying they are still in the brainstorming phase?

906 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:27:36am

re: #871 SixDegrees

NM...3 donk reps, 2 donk senators...one of the poorest states in the union...regardless I send all of them emails

907 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:27:43am

re: #808 nyc redneck
Hey nyc redneck! "how the fck is is possible that o is relentlessly pushing this, and he is "not familiar" w/ such an important part of the bill that would so detrimentally affect so many american citizens? ? ? ? "
Because O IS LYING THROUGH HIS TEETH.

908 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:27:43am

re: #899 formercorpsman
Prima Donnas?

909 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:28:02am

re: #896 KenJen

I just signed up for blockbuster's version of netflix. I'm going to watch all the Lost episodes. Can't wait.

Hurry, you have over 110 episodes to watch, 5 seasons, before Feb. 2010. If you have questions in the future, ask me, I'll hold your hand without giving you spoilers.

910 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:28:20am

re: #896 KenJen

I just signed up for blockbuster's version of netflix. I'm going to watch all the Lost episodes. Can't wait.


I watched them for free on abc.com

911 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:28:31am

re: #904 taxfreekiller

Keep in mind, Obama is a full raging hate America commie,
and its all your fault American's/America.

William Ayers
Rev. Wright

the list goes on

Obama is NOT A COMMIE.

912 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:28:35am

re: #842 redstateredneck

He's meeting with the director of the CBO today.

I wonder what he will do/say to try to get Elmendorf to fall in line.

913 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:28:38am

re: #877 lincolntf

... At which point the Israelis will nuke Iran and our "defensive umbrella" will have accomplished exactly what?

It provides Obama with political cover for not doing anything now. Later he can blame Bush for another problem he inherited.

914 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:28:48am

re: #881 lawhawk

Those items you speak of are worthy, but they actually cost money. If the idea is to contain costs, then something has to give. That's the problem with the way everyone seemingly conflates access to health care and the delivery of said care to the patient with the cost for said care.

People want a free ride, but nothing is free. It costs someone something. Is preventative care cost effective in the long run? Perhaps - but the longer one lives, the more money a person will spend on health care over their lifetime - a conundrum. The Democrats lie when they say that their plans will not result in rationing of care, because that's at the heart of cost control.


Good points, but I would submit that good pre-natal care goes a long way to avoiding expensive premies.
The uninsured population consists of a lot of young people who just don't enroll, a large illegal population & the working poor.
It is the last category that needs to be addressed.
You are right that it all costs money, but avoiding catatrohic cases is a good idea.
The Obama power grab/rationing alternative would be a disaster.

915 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:28:56am

re: #884 Walter L. Newton

I can't wait until 2010, when the next and last season of LOST begins. It will be nice to get back to reality.
/

I may have to follow you down that path after all

916 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:29:19am

re: #912 MandyManners

I wonder what he will do/say to try to get Elmendorf to fall in line.

Nice job you have there Elmy. Be a shame if something happened to it.

917 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:29:36am

re: #854 realwest

Great Britain has dental care? Really? huh.

Just don't try to get braces unless you have the cash.

918 FrogMarch  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:30:00am

So it IS about Barack.

'You're going to destroy my presidency.'

919 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:30:19am

Hey we already have $43 trillion in unfunded government healthcare mandates. Can government run a healthecare system or what?

/I know, let's shovel some more debt on the pile!

920 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:30:27am

re: #911 Walter L. Newton
Well what is he then? A socialist at least.

921 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:30:28am

re: #907 realwest

Yeah, I'm torn between whether he's lying to our faces about not having gotten to page 16 yet or if he truly has never read the thing and is just shilling it because shilling is what he does best.

922 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:30:59am

re: #894 Walter L. Newton

25 January 2007 (Germany) by Mike Judge (the guy who did "King of the Hill" )

And Beavis & Butthead, The Goode Family and Office Space.

923 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:31:03am

re: #910 redstateredneck

I watched them for free on abc.com

I dont have internet at home or I would.

924 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:31:32am

re: #901 lincolntf

The "scare tactics" are actually just people reading the bill.

health care terrorists

925 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:31:47am

re: #918 FrogMarch

So it IS about Barack.

'You're going to destroy my presidency.'

No ego there at all.

926 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:31:53am

re: #870 haakondahl

A national health care system would be like Medicare and Medicaid, where often the reimbursement is less than the cost of the service. Currently, prices to everyone else cover the loss, driving up the costs for everyone.
If many more people are put on such a system, then the costs for private insurance will become unaffordable, putting everyone (except Congress) on the public system. Then they'll either have to raise taxes or premiums to cover it, or our quality of care will get really bad.

927 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:32:03am

re: #869 opnion

It seems to me that they would need more taxes to continue for a full year. I wonder if the Canadian model is supported by income taxes or payroll taxes?

Simple answer, yes. Healthcare is the biggest drain on federal and provincial budgets.

928 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:32:05am

re: #895 realwest

Kindly see my #874 above. If this pos goes through, then our congresscritters and POTUS/ Vice-POTUS should have to use EXACTLY the same form of medical insurance/care they insist we all do.
If they don't they are charlatans, hypocrites and liars.
And they WILL COST SOME AMERICAN'S THEIR LIVES.
For NOTHING.


You are spot on, but it is not for nothing. It is for the glory of our Dear Leader, Comrade Obama.

929 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:32:13am

Totally OT, but I'm bringing you all this before taking off for a while, in case you haven't seen it. It's kind of genius.

Youtube Video
930 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:32:17am

re: #924 albusteve

Man-caused health care crisis.

931 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:32:21am

re: #915 albusteve

I may have to follow you down that path after all

This coming weekend, at Comic-Con, there will be a lot of sessions discussing LOST with cast, crew and producers. There's alway some info given out to tease the up coming season, without giving away any details. I'll keep up with the info coming out of the convention and pass on anything interesting to Lizard LOST fans here.

932 KansasMom  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:32:23am

re: #922 Mad Al-Jaffee

And Beavis & Butthead, The Goode Family and Office Space.

Office Space and Idiocracy? My god, the man is a GENIUS.

(seriously, I love both of those movies)

933 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:32:24am

re: #158 Salamantis

The empirical evidence is in, and the DNA evidence in general, and the artifactual retroviral DNA evidence in particular, conclusively demonstrates that all of life generally, and humans and great apes particularly, evolutionaily diverged from ancient common ancestors, beyond a shadow of a rational startistical doubt:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

I just want to reply to this.

I never said evolution is wrong. I never said "I do not believe in evolution," because I do.

But the very reason you pray in religion is because you believe God actually interferes in our daily lives and will in some way answer your prayers. Why would God answer prayers? Because, prayer itself is based upon the notion that God cares about humanity enough to answer prayers and even alter the course of history to answer such prayers.

Praying is inherently an act done with the thought in mind that God is an activist and listens to humans. Otherwise, it makes no sense at all why anyone should include, amongst the prayers, specific requests of God.

Evolution is part of a scientific method. Rather than mankind as a unique creature, apart from animals, and worthy of a special relationship with God, evolution proposes we are essentially an evolved animal.

I am not sure how someone could be a strong believer of the bible, with its ultimate message of the uniqueness of mankind and man's special relationship with God, and then say that mankind evolved from animals. Forget about biblical literalism. I am not even speaking about a literal reading of the bible - I am saying that I believe even the metaphoric message includes a notion that mankind is unique upon the earth and God answers prayers and cares about mankind.

I said I would not respond again, but I could not help myself!

I hope I am explaining myself a little better.

I believe you could be a Deist and believe in evolution. I believe that you could believe in God and believe in evolution. And I am personally agnostic, and do not claim to have the answers on the existence or lack of existence of God.

However, I do believe there is a conflict in Genesis with the theory of evolution. This is why the theory of evolution has spawned such a controversy, and there are so many religious groups which fight against it!

934 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:32:26am

re: #896 KenJen

I still have never seen a single episode of Lost. Maybe I'll get the first season dvds from Netflix or the library. But first I want to watch season 2 of Deadwood and season 1 of Battlestar Galactica.

935 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:32:29am
936 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:32:44am

re: #905 Pianobuff

So you're saying they are still in the brainstorming phase?

Obviously, no one has any idea what the [expletive deleted] they're doing.

/but we have to pass a bill in the next two weeks, OR WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

937 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:33:14am

re: #920 pingjockey

Well what is he then? A socialist at least.

Euro Socialist, like France, Britain, Germany.

938 FrogMarch  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:33:27am

re: #890 avanti

There is no one final health care bill yet, just lots of ideas. The best thing the Dems could do is let the right use scare tactics in attaching a provision, then remove it to appear bipartisan. i.e. moving the highest tax bracket up to $500,000/year or dropping the public insurance provision. Here's Nate Silver's take on some ways it might go.

Health Care.

No matter how the democrats manipulate the upcoming government take over of health care insurance -or- health care reform, it will be a disaster. I hope the dems are prepared to live with that legacy.

939 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:34:03am

re: #824 Pianobuff
With all due respect, no the Republicans do NOT have to come up with an alternative plan. We can do what the Dems' did in Congress when Bush was POTUS: Not suggest ONE DAMNED POSITIVE IDEA.
Besides which, it will take a LOT of time and some moral backbone for government to try to figure this healthcare crap out much less propose an alternative. IF the GOP can't understand it (and they can't, no one on the Dem side - who wrote it without ANY INPUT FROM REPUBLICANS AT ALL can't understand it, how the hell can the GOP understand it well enough to come up with an alternative?!

Folks THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OWNS THE US GOVERNMENT (and some big parts of US industry as well). Just remember that.

940 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:34:13am

re: #912 MandyManners

I wonder what he will do/say to try to get Elmendorf to fall in line.

Oh, to be a fly on the wall...

941 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:34:19am

re: #918 FrogMarch

So it IS about Barack.

'You're going to destroy my presidency.'

He is an egotistical punk.

942 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:34:38am

re: #916 Pianobuff

Nice job you have there Elmy. Be a shame if something happened to it.

That would be a monumental mistake because he's employed by Congress.

943 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:35:07am

re: #933 Daria Emmons

But the very reason you pray in religion is because you believe God actually interferes in our daily lives and will in some way answer your prayers

That is one view of the Divine. There are others, you know.

944 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:35:09am

re: #935 taxfreekiller

Excuse me Walter,

Obama is a "dumb ass commie", I stand corrected.

Beef up on some history, ok. He is not a communist, not in the classical sense of the word, not even close. It just makes your argument weak to even mention it. Of course, there are some people who will hook on to weak arguments like yours, but they generally lack intelligence.

945 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:35:28am
946 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:35:36am

And I still don't know why, but the post, strike, Bold etc buttons still don't work correctly and LGF is "rolling" on me when I try to use any of 'em.

947 haakondahl  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:36:31am

re: #888 pingjockey

In the book, the Forever War by Joe Haldeman, he starts out as a private in 1997 and with the relativistic affects comes back to earth like 30 years later and his mother is level 4, no care, too old, too sick. I can see that happening.

ASTOUNDING BOOK!

The List:
Starship Troopers, RAH
Forever War (and subsequent works), Joe Haldeman
Ender's Game (and subs), Orson Scott Card
The Parafaith War (and subs), L.E. Modesitt (jr?)
Eon, Greg Bear
Dune, of course.

In all cases, the subsequent works
Ur, and a couple more which I can't pop off with right now.

I especially demand that you run right out and buy recommend Parafaith War. You will simply be amazed. Nobody knows this book; everybody on this board (and yes, specifically LGF people) should read this amazing book.

948 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:36:40am

re: #942 MandyManners

That would be a monumental mistake because he's employed by Congress.

No I don't think that would ever happen. The door was just left wide open for some good old Chicago-way snark so I stepped through it.

949 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:36:47am

re: #900 haakondahl

And paid our surrender fee with a rubber check. Just how would we
extend a "defense umbrella" over the Persian Gulf? I know of nothing which is economically, politically, or militarily feasible, much less all of the above.

Can you say Israelovakia? Jewdetenland?

Especially since Obama is shit canning our missile plans?

950 johnnyreb  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:36:50am

re: #883 Kosh's Shadow

Romney could help here. The Massachusetts system has been more expensive than expected but hasn't been the disaster Obamacare will be. In states where health care costs are more reasonable than Mass, it probably would work.
And he'd position himself well for 2012.
Even if his plan fails to pass, by 2012 when people see what a disaster Obamacare is, he'll look good.

It depends on how you define the word disaster. From what I am reading here in CT it seems to be that the mass health care plan is in fact a disaster. It is draining money from nearly every part of the state budget and is about 25% unfunded if my local paper can be believed. Unpaid doctor and hospital bills are being deferred or in some cases just simply denied so they have to reapply just to push the $$ owed towards the future.

951 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:36:53am

re: #918 FrogMarch

So it IS about Barack.

'You're going to destroy my presidency.'

"Let's just lay everything on the table," Grassley said. "A Democrat congressman last week told me after a conversation with the president that the president had trouble in the House of Representatives, and it wasn't going to pass if there weren't some changes made ... and the president says, 'You're going to destroy my presidency.' "

Fucking narcissist.

952 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:37:28am

re: #933 Daria Emmons

. . .

But the very reason you pray in religion is because you believe God actually interferes in our daily lives and will in some way answer your prayers. Why would God answer prayers? Because, prayer itself is based upon the notion that God cares about humanity enough to answer prayers and even alter the course of history to answer such prayers.

Praying is inherently an act done with the thought in mind that God is an activist and listens to humans. Otherwise, it makes no sense at all why anyone should include, amongst the prayers, specific requests of God. . . .

Some of us pray simply for strength and wisdom, NOT for God's intervention to twist events to what we want them to be.

953 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:37:33am

re: #901 lincolntf

The "scare tactics" are actually just people reading the bill.

I'm talking about universal health care costing lives, terminating the elderly, and the rest. There are real problems with all the proposals that need to be worked out. The GOP has decided killing any form of universal health care is a way to attack the POTUS, so they are tossing everything they can at it.

954 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:37:51am

re: #943 Sharmuta

That is one view of the Divine. There are others, you know.

You mean the actor who was in a bunch of John Waters movies?

:)

955 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:38:03am

re: #937 Walter L. Newton

Euro Socialist, like France, Britain, Germany.

in America we call them commies too...liberals, proggies, leftists, unions etc

956 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:38:10am

re: #923 KenJen

I dont have internet at home or I would.


Bummer! I caught up with the previous four seasons in about a month. I watched them every night!

957 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:38:20am
958 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:38:52am

re: #936 Killian Bundy

Obviously, no one has any idea what the [expletive deleted] they're doing.

/but we have to pass a bill in the next two weeks, OR WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

Youtube Video

We are all "doomed"!

959 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:39:13am

gotta make a drug store run - back later

960 jcm  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:39:15am

Morning Honcos.

The administration has come up with a simply BRILLIANT plan for dealing with the Mad Mullahs.

Clinton says US would arm its allies against a nuclear Iran

America would arm its allies and extend its “defence umbrella” across the Middle East if Iran succeeded in producing nuclear weapons, the US Secretary of State said today.

Hillary Clinton's statement at the ASEAN meeting of foreign ministers in Thailand swiftly provoked an anxious reaction from Israel. Israel’s minister for intelligence and atomic energy, Dan Meridor, bristled at the implication that Iran’s nuclear status might be regarded as a strategic reality.

[snip]

“We will still hold the door open (for talks with Iran), but we also have made it clear that we'll take actions, as I’ve said time and time again, crippling action, working to upgrade the defence of our partners in the region,” she told Thai television.

Let's see, well let Iran go nuclear and hope we can defend against a nuc strike. What kind of defense will work against a donkey borne nuc?

The open hand is still extended to an illegitimate regime which is bent on gaining nuclear weapons and has overtly threatened the extinction of Israel.

Just f'n BRILLIANT.

We

are

so

fucked

961 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:39:31am

re: #940 redstateredneck

Oh, to be a fly on the wall...

I bet he's screened to make sure he doesn't have a tape recorder.

962 haakondahl  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:39:47am

re: #946 realwest

And I still don't know why, but the post, strike, Bold etc buttons still don't work correctly and LGF is "rolling" on me when I try to use any of 'em.

Agreed; been this way for weeks on different systems, but all using MSIE 7.x
Buggy, slow, erratic, and logs me out all the damned time. I'll wait until I get back to more civilized areas before really trying to help troubleshoot.

963 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:39:52am

re: #939 realwest

With all due respect, no the Republicans do NOT have to come up with an alternative plan. We can do what the Dems' did in Congress when Bush was POTUS: Not suggest ONE DAMNED POSITIVE IDEA.
Besides which, it will take a LOT of time and some moral backbone for government to try to figure this healthcare crap out much less propose an alternative. IF the GOP can't understand it (and they can't, no one on the Dem side - who wrote it without ANY INPUT FROM REPUBLICANS AT ALL can't understand it, how the hell can the GOP understand it well enough to come up with an alternative?!

Folks THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OWNS THE US GOVERNMENT (and some big parts of US industry as well). Just remember that.

Not sure that a lot of elements aren't already there and have been discussed for years... opening markets across state lines, some tort reform, etc.

Certainly not as "sweeping" in the world-changing manner of Obamacare but some common sense stuff.

These are things that, at least in my view, would improve the system - particularly around cost issues.

964 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:39:53am

re: #947 haakondahl

Actually, I have read "Parafaith War". Was a few years ago, so I might have to brush up on it. Two interstellar cultures, one religous based, and the other more secular right?

/actually details are starting to come to the surface now that I think about it.

965 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:40:02am

re: #872 formercorpsman
The only way they can sell this SHIT is because most of Obama's supporters are under 30 and about half are under 40 - ya know, the age at which one doesn't tend to think about your own mortality.
I say AGAIN - if O thinks this is such a good plan, then why doesn't he make it applicable to CONGRESS AND THE WHITE HOUSE?!

966 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:40:10am

re: #953 avanti

I'm talking about universal health care costing lives, terminating the elderly, and the rest. There are real problems with all the proposals that need to be worked out. The GOP has decided killing any form of universal health care is a way to attack the POTUS, so they are tossing everything they can at it.

Avanti maybe if the "Dems" had made just one attempt to have a bipartisan approach to Health Care, we would not be in this position? The fact is most working Americans are relatively happy with their health plans and health care. Not need to blow the system up. Get real now.

967 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:40:16am

re: #905 Pianobuff

So you're saying they are still in the brainstorming phase?

We started the heath care debate 60 years ago, but it's still not over.

968 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:40:33am

re: #948 Pianobuff

No I don't think that would ever happen. The door was just left wide open for some good old Chicago-way snark so I stepped through it.

I suppose he could use Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy and the rest of the Commie bastards to pressure Elmendorf.

969 KansasMom  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:40:42am

re: #947 haakondahl

ASTOUNDING BOOK!

The List:
Starship Troopers, RAH
Forever War (and subsequent works), Joe Haldeman
Ender's Game (and subs), Orson Scott Card
The Parafaith War (and subs), L.E. Modesitt (jr?)
Eon, Greg Bear
Dune, of course.

In all cases, the subsequent works
Ur, and a couple more which I can't pop off with right now.

I especially demand that you run right out and buy recommend Parafaith War. You will simply be amazed. Nobody knows this book; everybody on this board (and yes, specifically LGF people) should read this amazing book.

I just put this post in my favorites -- going to read Forever War and look at the others. Sounds really good!

970 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:41:33am

re: #954 Mad Al-Jaffee

You mean the actor who was in a bunch of John Waters movies?

:)

LOL! Now go sit in the corner.

971 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:41:37am

re: #965 realwest

The only way they can sell this SHIT is because most of Obama's supporters are under 30 and about half are under 40 - ya know, the age at which one doesn't tend to think about your own mortality.
I say AGAIN - if O thinks this is such a good plan, then why doesn't he make it applicable to CONGRESS AND THE WHITE HOUSE?!

Ding. Ding. Ding.

972 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:41:48am

re: #967 avanti

We started the heath care debate 60 years ago, but it's still not over.

Jesus what a Democratic Talking point. Take that shit somewhere else.

973 lincolntf  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:41:50am

re: #953 avanti

Again, the Republicans aren't tossing anything "at it". They are describing what the Dems threw "in it".

If you believe that this is an honest attempt by the Dems to improve health care in the US, then I'd think you'd like the constructive input from people who obviously know more about it than the President himself. However, if you recognize that it's a massive power/money grab by the Feds then I understand why you'd like to dismiss all criticisms of the plan as "scare tactics".

974 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:41:53am

re: #968 MandyManners

I suppose he could use Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy and the rest of the Commie bastards to pressure Elmendorf.

The IGs are already on the run too...

975 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:42:18am

if you disagree with me, you are a commie...fair warning...
if you agree with me you are a Neanderthal...
keep it simple

976 CIA Reject  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:42:38am

re: #952 reine.de.tout

Some of us pray simply for strength and wisdom, NOT for God's intervention to twist events to what we want them to be.

"The light to see the path and the strength to walk it" as Pop Reject always used to say...

977 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:42:41am

New GM to launch fragrance line

Sputtering General Motors Co., just out of a quick drive through bankruptcy court, will soon be using its iconic Cadillac brand to sell a line of fragrance for men.

Beauty Contact Inc., a Dubai-based cosmetic company and holder of the fragrance licence, said yesterday it will launch the Cadillac line in stores this fall to mark the brand's 100th anniversary.

"Cadillac, the new fragrance for men is part of the recent Cadillac renaissance: Hot new products and redesigns that capture the mantra of life, liberty and the pursuit," said Alwyn Stephen, a Beauty Contact director.

"Our fragrance is a relevant extension of the Cadillac lifestyle."

/we paid $50 billion for [expletive deleted] like this?

978 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:42:44am

re: #904 taxfreekiller

Keep in mind, Obama is a full raging hate America commie,
and its all your fault American's/America.

William Ayers
Rev. Wright

the list goes on

and on and on and on.
there are just too many for it to be coincidence. all these scoundrels are of the same mindset as o. leftist ideologues who want to "remake, reform, redo" everything abt. america that made this country great.
bill ayers is fcking terrorist. a home grown bomber. a committed commie out to destroy america. it runs thru his veins.
most america people would never count this flag stomping s.o.b 'friend material'.
it is not possible to associate w/ this pos unless you identify w/ his radical beliefs.
o has too many like this.

979 SixDegrees  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:43:22am

re: #895 realwest

Kindly see my #874 above. If this pos goes through, then our congresscritters and POTUS/ Vice-POTUS should have to use EXACTLY the same form of medical insurance/care they insist we all do.
If they don't they are charlatans, hypocrites and liars.
And they WILL COST SOME AMERICAN'S THEIR LIVES.
For NOTHING.

I heard a few days ago that the GOP had introduced an amendment making this mandatory, and it had been rejected. I haven't been able to verify either statement, but it sounds about right. Congress explicitly exempts itself from nearly all the regulations is passes, including the 68 degree thermostat setting for Federal Buildings; Affirmative Action; OSHA regulations; and a host of other mandates that those working directly for Congress are explicitly exempted from.

980 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:43:27am

re: #953 avanti

I'm talking about universal health care costing lives, terminating the elderly, and the rest. There are real problems with all the proposals that need to be worked out. The GOP has decided killing any form of universal health care is a way to attack the POTUS, so they are tossing everything they can at it.

Well, I would hope so. This bill is so "socialized" that it needs the brakes put on it. I hope to hell the conservative, both conservative Democrats and Republicans fight this thing down to the point that it NEVER rises again.

Tough shit, yes, this is a partisan fight, and the Democrats look like they are loosing, and even loosing some of their own support.

And guess what? I would be a poster child for someone who has basically lost his whole career of 30 years, have gone from making close to 100 grand to under 20, can't find work, don't have my own health care and the list goes on.

But there is NO FUCKING way I will let the government, any government, put their hands up my ass an make me jump like a puppet.

I have conviction that I will stick to. I will die before I let the government tell me what to do with my life and health.

If you want to give in to them, go for it.

981 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:44:40am

re: #951 MandyManners

"Let's just lay everything on the table," Grassley said. "A Democrat congressman last week told me after a conversation with the president that the president had trouble in the House of Representatives, and it wasn't going to pass if there weren't some changes made ... and the president says, 'You're going to destroy my presidency.' "

Fucking narcissist.

I talked to a liberal last week, who talked to a conservative that heard from a parrot that health care will pass.

982 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:44:59am

re: #953 avanti

I'm talking about universal health care costing lives, terminating the elderly, and the rest. There are real problems with all the proposals that need to be worked out. The GOP has decided killing any form of universal health care is a way to attack the POTUS, so they are tossing everything they can at it.

Avanti, how can you have confidenc in thi Bill, when Obama does not even know key components.
Why the rush? let the thing get totally vetted & debated, let the American public understand this thing.
It looks like a wolf in sheeps clothing. Private plans will no be able to comete with the subsidized public option & will go away through attrition & then we will have a single payer system & that works poorly everywhere.

983 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:45:23am

re: #980 Walter L. Newton

Well, I would hope so. This bill is so "socialized" that it needs the brakes put on it. I hope to hell the conservative, both conservative Democrats and Republicans fight this thing down to the point that it NEVER rises again.

Tough shit, yes, this is a partisan fight, and the Democrats look like they are loosing, and even loosing some of their own support.

And guess what? I would be a poster child for someone who has basically lost his whole career of 30 years, have gone from making close to 100 grand to under 20, can't find work, don't have my own health care and the list goes on.

But there is NO FUCKING way I will let the government, any government, put their hands up my ass an make me jump like a puppet.

I have conviction that I will stick to. I will die before I let the government tell me what to do with my life and health.

If you want to give in to them, go for it.

you go caveman!

984 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:45:26am

re: #939 realwest

With all due respect, no the Republicans do NOT have to come up with an alternative plan. We can do what the Dems' did in Congress when Bush was POTUS: Not suggest ONE DAMNED POSITIVE IDEA.
Besides which, it will take a LOT of time and some moral backbone for government to try to figure this healthcare crap out much less propose an alternative. IF the GOP can't understand it (and they can't, no one on the Dem side - who wrote it without ANY INPUT FROM REPUBLICANS AT ALL can't understand it, how the hell can the GOP understand it well enough to come up with an alternative?!

Folks THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OWNS THE US GOVERNMENT (and some big parts of US industry as well). Just remember that.

Hiya, {rw}!

And hiya, Lizard Nation!

At this stage in the political cycle, in your country, it would be a huge mistake for the GOP to come up with alternatives. Let them save these ideas for election manifestos.
Here's the reason:
When it looked as if Gord here in the UK was going to go for a snap election, in 2007, the Tories came up with some proposals in regard to our finances. This was at their annual conference.
Gord did not go to the country - he dithered.
But!
The Tory proposals found their way into the next budget, all of a sudden, declared as wonderful NuLab proposals ...
Yep - they stole the Tories' ideas.

I hope the GOP has learned from their experience, and won't make this mistake.
The Tories haven't - even though the NuLab MFM and politicos have been taunting them ever since about 'not having any new ideas'.

985 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:45:38am

re: #981 avanti

I talked to a liberal last week, who talked to a conservative that heard from a parrot that health care will pass.

Hey Walter I think that was a shot at you and maisey?

986 jcm  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:45:42am

re: #965 realwest

The only way they can sell this SHIT is because most of Obama's supporters are under 30 and about half are under 40 - ya know, the age at which one doesn't tend to think about your own mortality.
I say AGAIN - if O thinks this is such a good plan, then why doesn't he make it applicable to CONGRESS AND THE WHITE HOUSE?!

43% "49 million" of the "uninsured" are young people who have insurance available, but opt out.

987 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:46:16am

re: #979 SixDegrees

I heard a few days ago that the GOP had introduced an amendment making this mandatory, and it had been rejected. I haven't been able to verify either statement, but it sounds about right. Congress explicitly exempts itself from nearly all the regulations is passes, including the 68 degree thermostat setting for Federal Buildings; Affirmative Action; OSHA regulations; and a host of other mandates that those working directly for Congress are explicitly exempted from.

"BO!, the citizens are revolting!"

988 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:46:44am

Iraq Index
Tracking Variables of
Reconstruction & Security in Post-Saddam Iraq

Plenty of statistics on the progress & challenges in Iraq.

Some good graphs of an important and frequently misunderstood statistic: Iraqi civilian casualties. The total number of Iraqi civilians killed is close to 100,000, not the 1 million or more often cited by leftists, liberal journalists or Democratic politicians looking to score points. Of those 100,000 killed, the vast majority (over 98%) were killed by terrorists, not the US or coalition troops.

At the worst period, in 2006, US troops killed 364 civilians, unintentionally, in cross-fire or by collateral damage from air strikes. The total number of Iraqi civilians killed that year was 34,353. Less the 364 killed by US troops, that leaves 33,989 intentionally murdered by the various terrorists and death squads in 2006. US troops were responsible for 1.06% of Iraqi civilian deaths in 2006.

989 CIA Reject  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:46:54am

re: #987 VegasRick

"BO!, the citizens are revolting!"

"You can say that again- they stink on ice!"

990 SixDegrees  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:46:57am

re: #973 lincolntf

Again, the Republicans aren't tossing anything "at it". They are describing what the Dems threw "in it".

If you believe that this is an honest attempt by the Dems to improve health care in the US, then I'd think you'd like the constructive input from people who obviously know more about it than the President himself. However, if you recognize that it's a massive power/money grab by the Feds then I understand why you'd like to dismiss all criticisms of the plan as "scare tactics".

It's telling that the Administration's only strategy on this bill seems to be blaming anyone who criticizes it of employing "scare tactics" or "playing politics." If it were truly a worthwhile piece of legislation, wouldn't a more acceptable approach be to, you know, point out why it is such a good bill and touting it's strong selling points?

Oh, wait - maybe there aren't any.

991 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:47:02am

re: #987 VegasRick

"BO!, the citizens are revolting!"

Time to mandate personal hygeine classes then.

/

992 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:47:05am

re: #981 avanti

I talked to a liberal last week, who talked to a conservative that heard from a parrot that health care will pass.

WTF does that mean?

993 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:47:30am

re: #918 FrogMarch

So it IS about Barack.

'You're going to destroy my presidency.'

What isn't?

It's the narcissism, dude.

994 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:47:33am

re: #890 avanti
Avanti - have you NOT been reading this thread? Is it a scare tactic for someone who is 64 and has cancer to hear what Kathy Selebus has to say to get worried about it? Is it a scare tactic to read what the Mayo Clinic has to say about it? Is it a scare tactic to you know ACTUALLY READ PARTS OF THE BILL that mean health care WILL BE RATIONED for American Citizens?
Is it a scare tactic to point out that this wonderful Obmacare will NOT APPLY to Obama or his family or Biden or his family or to any member of Congress or any retired member of Congress?
For people like YOU who think rationed health care is just hunky dory IS WHAT'S FUCKING SCARY.

995 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:47:38am

re: #974 Pianobuff

The IGs are already on the run too...

IG's?

996 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:47:58am

re: #986 jcm

43% "49 million" of the "uninsured" are young people who have insurance available, but opt out.

After my oldest daughter gradiated from College last May she was kicked off my Tricare. If I had not signed her up for Blue X Blue Shield she would be uninsured to day. Kids don't think about stuff like that.

997 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:48:09am
998 CIA Reject  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:48:12am

re: #995 MandyManners

IG's?

Inspectors General

999 johnnyreb  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:48:29am

re: #974 Pianobuff

The IGs are already on the run too...

I expect to see more IG's getting asked to retire and the CBO is gonna get pushed into a corner soon. There is no way that Obama and Pelosi can push all this stuff and let the CBO operate as normal. They will figure out a way to marginalize him.

Whats next after Cap and Tax and Obama Care? They have a ton of stuff that we have not seen yet. I suspect we will see a reappearance of amnesty this fall/winter.

1000 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:48:35am

re: #994 realwest

An upding for you.
Have I told you lately that I love you?
;-)

1001 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:48:56am

re: #994 realwest

it's avantis friendly way of insulting you

1002 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:49:10am

re: #981 avanti

I talked to a liberal last week, who talked to a conservative that heard from a parrot that health care will pass.

Are you calling jammiewearingfool a liar?

1003 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:49:11am

re: #995 MandyManners

Inspector Generals. Walpin and the guy over at Amtrack if I'm not mistaken.

The independent oversight and accountability dudes and dudettes.

1004 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:49:24am

re: #943 Sharmuta

That is one view of the Divine. There are others, you know.

Jewish prayer ultimately is based off the Shemona Esrei, which means the 18. It includes praise and thanksgiving, but also requests of God. Jews are supposed to pray three times a day, and say the Shemona Esrei three times a day. The Shemona Esrei is right here (also known as the Amidah):

[Link: www.chabad.org...]

I do not believe all religion requires the notion of an activist God, but certainly the core of the Jewish faith does.

I have point blank asked how this is possible in light of the Holocaust and all sorts of human suffering, and the ultimate answer is "we do not know why there was the Holocaust, but God does interfere in our lives. It is unknowable why God will answer some prayers and not others."

I love Judaism and being a Jew. I am proud to be a Jew and attend weekly services - all as an agnostic.

Perhaps these are inherent contradictions, but they are what they are...

1005 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:49:40am

re: #964 BlueCanuck

Actually, I have read "Parafaith War". Was a few years ago, so I might have to brush up on it. Two interstellar cultures, one religous based, and the other more secular right?

/actually details are starting to come to the surface now that I think about it.

I've read that - its very evocative of the way a certain religion goes about tis business here and now ...

1006 realwest  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:49:45am

I'm outta here folks. Can't take all the apolgistas for Obamacare anymore.
Just can't.
And one of these days, all these motherfuckers who think Obamacare is just fine and dandy will reach an age where they'll get fucked too.
But that's cold compensation.

1007 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:50:00am

re: #939 realwest

The GOP doesn't have to come up with an alternative plan, but they have in any event. Coburn and a cosponsor have done just that. It's going to rot in committee because the Democrats will not accept alternatives, because they wouldn't completely rip apart health care as we know it.

1008 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:50:16am

re: #990 SixDegrees

It's telling that the Administration's only strategy on this bill seems to be blaming anyone who criticizes it of employing "scare tactics" or "playing politics." If it were truly a worthwhile piece of legislation, wouldn't a more acceptable approach be to, you know, point out why it is such a good bill and touting it's strong selling points?

Oh, wait - maybe there aren't any.

Just like those who opposed him during the primary and general were called "racists".

1009 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:50:25am

re: #918 FrogMarch

So it IS about Barack.

'You're going to destroy my presidency.'

That's the idea, you punk. We don't like you, and we don't like your policies.

1010 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:50:27am

re: #967 avanti

We started the heath care debate 60 years ago, but it's still not over.


Damn, why didn't I see that! It is a work in progress & Obama & his acolytes are listening to their better angels. Why didn't I see this before?

1011 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:50:56am

re: #998 CIA Reject

Inspectors General

I thought so but I wasnt' sure. Thanks!

1012 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:50:56am

I really hate popping off to do a couple of little things, make lemonade, do a few dishes and now the thread has multilplied like those darn islamists.

1013 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:50:57am

re: #985 Nevergiveup

Hey Walter I think that was a shot at you and maisey?

Have you ever seen anyone on here that has been able to insult me? No. I have a thick skin (thicker than the squabblers and whining progressives here).

1014 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:51:07am

re: #982 opnion

Avanti, how can you have confidenc in thi Bill, when Obama does not even know key components.
Why the rush? let the thing get totally vetted & debated, let the American public understand this thing.
It looks like a wolf in sheeps clothing. Private plans will no be able to comete with the subsidized public option & will go away through attrition & then we will have a single payer system & that works poorly everywhere.

I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare. I do think we could go slower, but I see the left's problem with that. They need to get some kind of bill passed quickly, or the right will chip away at support by scaring the crap out of the public that wants health insurance.
I'd hope the Dems make some dramatic gesture to stall the attacks, i.e. tort reform, no government option for now or the like.

1015 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:51:52am

re: #996 Nevergiveup

After my oldest daughter gradiated from College last May she was kicked off my Tricare. If I had not signed her up for Blue X Blue Shield she would be uninsured to day. Kids don't think about stuff like that.

I hear ya'. My group insurance dropped my daughter when she became 22. Hell, she was still in school then. I had to buy Blue Cross/Blue Shield until she gradutated and secured a job that provided insurance. Any lapse in coverage and she/we would have been screwed as she has an autoimmune problem that rears it's ugly head from time to time and without continuous health coverage, she could have been denied pre-existing coverage.

1016 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:52:13am

re: #1003 Pianobuff

Inspector Generals. Walpin and the guy over at Amtrack if I'm not mistaken.

The independent oversight and accountability dudes and dudettes.

If his calling Elmendorf to the White House is any indication, he doesn't consider ANYONE in the government independent of him.

1017 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:52:20am

re: #1010 opnion

Damn, why didn't I see that! It is a work in progress & Obama & his acolytes are listening to their better angels. Why didn't I see this before?

I know I wasn't born yet in 1949 but I kinda think the Ruskies having just become a Nuclear Power was slightly more of an issue than health care? But hey I was just a twinkle in someones eye?

1018 SixDegrees  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:52:33am

re: #1008 MandyManners

Just like those who opposed him during the primary and general were called "racists".

If this were such a great bill that would benefit Americans, I'd be out there telling Americans exactly why it was so great and how much it was going to benefit them if I were President.

I'm not hearing any of that. Just attacks on anyone who questions it.

Not a good sign of what it contains when it's largest promoter doesn't want to talk about it in public.

1019 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:52:43am

re: #992 VegasRick

WTF does that mean?

It means the supposed Obama quote was a second hand "I heard it from" deal.

1020 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:52:49am
1021 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:53:44am

re: #1013 Walter L. Newton

Have you ever seen anyone on here that has been able to insult me? No. I have a thick skin (thicker than the squabblers and whining progressives here).

Your mother is an hamster and your father smells of elderberries!

1022 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:53:46am

re: #947 haakondahl
Haven't even heard of Parafaith War. David Weber has bot me hooked on Honor Harrington.
Armor by John Steakley is another good one.

1023 Aye Pod  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:54:05am

re: #929 iceweasel

Totally OT, but I'm bringing you all this before taking off for a while, in case you haven't seen it. It's kind of genius.


Awesome.

1024 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:54:12am

Polly wanna xanax. Squak! Obama's giving me anxiety attacks.

1025 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:54:23am

re: #1009 Dark_Falcon

It's not that we are going to destroy his Presidency. It's that his own actions and ideas are going to destroy his Presidency from within because he will be exposed as nothing more than a slick huckster. It's all about him. He wants what he wants, and when he doesn't, break out the waaahmbulance. When he's rebuffed from getting what he wants - and his place in history isn't deification, that will be a failure.

1026 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:54:25am

re: #1016 MandyManners

If his calling Elmendorf to the White House is any indication, he doesn't consider ANYONE in the government independent of him.

It is a rather...um..."long-armed"...executive branch these days.

1027 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:54:32am

re: #1014 avanti

I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare. I do think we could go slower, but I see the left's problem with that. They need to get some kind of bill passed quickly, or the right will chip away at support by scaring the crap out of the public that wants health insurance.
I'd hope the Dems make some dramatic gesture to stall the attacks, i.e. tort reform, no government option for now or the like.

Oh you have a dog in the fight. If and when Obama ever, G-D forbid gets his way, Medicare, Medicaid, and everything else will probably get rolled into one. Wake up guy

1028 jcm  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:54:35am

re: #1006 realwest

I'm outta here folks. Can't take all the apolgistas for Obamacare anymore.
Just can't.
And one of these days, all these motherfuckers who think Obamacare is just fine and dandy will reach an age where they'll get fucked too.
But that's cold compensation.

The future is seen in Oregon, where patients are told no cancer drugs will be provided but the suicide pills will be provided. To the Netherlands where they involuntary euthanasia is taking place.

Your too old, or your treatment is too expensive, or your family thinks you are too much of a burden. Off you go.

Listen to Obama, listen to his last line...

Youtube Video
1029 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:54:46am

This is a most revealing quote from
Barack "You're going to destroy my presidency" Obama.

If Obama fails on his agenda of imposing the most ambitions social program in US history, during a major economic crisis, while fighting a prolonged & complex war, Obama blames everybody else. Obama is oblivious to his own role in the failure. He's preemptively blaming the Democratic controlled congress for failing him!

Now THAT'S narcissism!

1030 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:54:50am

re: #1014 avanti

I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare. I do think we could go slower, but I see the left's problem with that. They need to get some kind of bill passed quickly, or the right will chip away at support by scaring the crap out of the public that wants health insurance.
I'd hope the Dems make some dramatic gesture to stall the attacks, i.e. tort reform, no government option for now or the like.

You call it "scare" I call it protecting the American public from a bill that will mandate who lives and dies. If this passes, which list will you be on.

P.S. There you go with your standard selfish remark "I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare."

Guess what buddy, you do have a dog in this fight. That dog is your fellow American, you family and heirs, the yet unborn and the standards by which this country enable this country to become the great nation it is.

You are not an island unto yourself.

1031 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:55:13am

re: #1014 avanti

I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare.


That's a naive statement to think that nothing will change regarding your healthcare. Good luck getting in to see a doctor if this crap passes.

1032 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:55:14am

re: #1018 SixDegrees

If this were such a great bill that would benefit Americans, I'd be out there telling Americans exactly why it was so great and how much it was going to benefit them if I were President.

I'm not hearing any of that. Just attacks on anyone who questions it.

Not a good sign of what it contains when it's largest promoter doesn't want to talk about it in public.

Remember his campaign promise to hold negotiations with hospital and pharmaceutical CEO's in public?

1033 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:55:16am

re: #900 haakondahl

And paid our surrender fee with a rubber check. Just how would we
extend a "defense umbrella" over the Persian Gulf? I know of nothing which is economically, politically, or militarily feasible, much less all of the above.

Can you say Israelovakia? Jewdetenland?

I'd be very surprised if the US, whether Obama or another president stops Iran from obtaining the bomb, but when/if they do get it, I don't believe the danger is Iran using the bomb, becasue of the consequences from US and/or Israel. I think the question is, how will an emboldened Iran act in other regards after it has the bomb, i.e., towards Iraq and the gulf states. I'm curious if anyone thinks Israel can/will do a repeat of Osirak.

1034 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:55:28am

re: #994 realwest
Give him Hell!

1035 Aye Pod  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:55:33am

Chicken Tikka Masala is a Glasgow Dish

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

1036 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:55:41am

re: #1021 MandyManners

Your mother is an hamster and your father smells of elderberries!

Ok, that hurt.

1037 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:55:42am

re: #1006 realwest

I'm outta here folks. Can't take all the apolgistas for Obamacare anymore.
Just can't.
And one of these days, all these motherfuckers who think Obamacare is just fine and dandy will reach an age where they'll get fucked too.
But that's cold compensation.

Maybe some here could take their Obama stickers of their cars now?

1038 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:56:26am

re: #1014 avanti

I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare. I do think we could go slower, but I see the left's problem with that. They need to get some kind of bill passed quickly, or the right will chip away at support by scaring the crap out of the public that wants health insurance.
I'd hope the Dems make some dramatic gesture to stall the attacks, i.e. tort reform, no government option for now or the like.

Hurry up and pass it before the public figures out how horrible this legislation is! Good point Avanti!
*fucking moron

1039 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:56:34am

BBIAW, going to do hand to hand combat with an irrigation pump!

1040 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:57:05am

re: #1022 pingjockey

Hated Armor, considered it a leftist rip off of Starship Troopers when I read it back in 86. Just enough serial numbers filed off and names changed to protect the guilty. Waiting for the next Honor universe book to come out. November is so far away. :p

1041 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:57:15am

I've got my Navy pension, and social security, and Medicare. I got mine so fuck you.
Sincerely,

Avanti

1042 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:57:25am

re: #1019 avanti

It means the supposed Obama quote was a second hand "I heard it from" deal.

You're either calling jammiewearingfool a liar or Sen. Grassley a liar.

Which is it?

1043 jcm  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:57:31am

re: #1014 avanti

I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare. I do think we could go slower, but I see the left's problem with that. They need to get some kind of bill passed quickly, or the right will chip away at support by scaring the crap out of the public that wants health insurance.
I'd hope the Dems make some dramatic gesture to stall the attacks, i.e. tort reform, no government option for now or the like.

Medicare? You are so fucked, you just don't know it yet...
Medicare's deficit 7 times Social Security's and that was four years ago...

1044 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:58:07am

re: #981 avanti

That was snarky, avanti. I downding others when they do that to you, so I must downding you when you do it.

1045 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:58:15am

re: #1014 avanti

I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare.

Oh, well alright then, you're covered. Never mind how this incompetent, corrupt socialist neophyte is hurtling the country towards economic collapse. You don't have a dog in this fight. Carry on.

Fucking selfish idiot!

1046 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:58:45am

re: #1041 kansas

I've got my Navy pension, and social security, and Medicare. I got mine so fuck you.
Sincerely,

Avanti

There you go, seething and raging and squabbling. Keep that up and Avanti will have to go polish a fender or something. That'll teach you.

1047 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:58:51am

re: #1006 realwest

I'm outta here folks. Can't take all the apolgistas for Obamacare anymore.
Just can't.
And one of these days, all these motherfuckers who think Obamacare is just fine and dandy will reach an age where they'll get fucked too.
But that's cold compensation.

Take care Real! Prayers are with you...

1048 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:59:13am

re: #1042 MandyManners

You're either calling jammiewearingfool a liar or Sen. Grassley a liar.

Which is it?

Or, the un-named Democrat.

[Link: jammiewearingfool.blogspot.com...]

1049 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:59:15am

re: #1030 Walter L. Newton

You call it "scare" I call it protecting the American public from a bill that will mandate who lives and dies. If this passes, which list will you be on.

P.S. There you go with your standard selfish remark "I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare."

Guess what buddy, you do have a dog in this fight. That dog is your fellow American, you family and heirs, the yet unborn and the standards by which this country enable this country to become the great nation it is.

You are not an island unto yourself.

a maligned, perverse sense of patriotism imo...

1050 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:59:25am

re: #1041 kansas

I've got my Navy pension, and social security, and Medicare. I got mine so fuck you.
Sincerely,

Avanti

Typical lib.

1051 Killian Bundy  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:59:53am

No one's read or even knows what's in the bill, but it's a good bill, it's a really good bill!

/Bonkey talking points

1052 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:00:02am

re: #1027 Nevergiveup

Oh you have a dog in the fight. If and when Obama ever, G-D forbid gets his way, Medicare, Medicaid, and everything else will probably get rolled into one. Wake up guy

What i really don't get is how avanti thinks he's got no dog in thsi fight - when he - and all the other apologists for this wodenrful obamacare! - just need to look at the state of the NHS in the UK.
After all, we've had this now for over 60 years.

I'm consciously not saying anything about the health care in the former Soviet Union, because this was, to all intents and purposes, not a country comparable to the Western developed nations.
But Great Britain certainly was ...

And here's another aspect of the NHS, and, I bet, of obamacare: all the indigent illegal immigrants who haven't contributed diddly-squat into the system, will of course get free health care in the NHS. No questions asked ...

Resist this obamacare with all your might!

1053 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:00:10am

re: #1014 avanti

I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare. I do think we could go slower, but I see the left's problem with that. They need to get some kind of bill passed quickly, or the right will chip away at support by scaring the crap out of the public that wants health insurance.
I'd hope the Dems make some dramatic gesture to stall the attacks, i.e. tort reform, no government option for now or the like.

But just a few posts ago you said they were still in the idea phase. Which is it?

Oh, and if I were on Medicare I'd be very interested in this bill. I bet some of the funding will come right out of Medicare by the time this is done.

1054 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:00:11am

re: #1046 Walter L. Newton

There you go, seething and raging and squabbling. Keep that up and Avanti will have to go polish a fender or something. That'll teach you.


Clinging to my guns. Not much on Bibles. Sorry.

1055 Aye Pod  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:00:16am

re: #1035 Jimmah

And if you are ever in Glasgow, this is the restuarant where it was invented -

[Link: www.shishmahal.co.uk...]

I'm off there right now, as it happens. See y'all laters.

1056 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:00:38am

re: #1014 avanti

I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare. I do think we could go slower, but I see the left's problem with that. They need to get some kind of bill passed quickly, or the right will chip away at support by scaring the crap out of the public that wants health insurance.
I'd hope the Dems make some dramatic gesture to stall the attacks, i.e. tort reform, no government option for now or the like.


The importaant thin here is not that Obama get a victory . I don't care to stroke his already huge ego.
The important thing is to stop this train wreck from being enacted.
As far as scare tactics the Dems use plenty, "We must pass it now to avoid a future disaster, blah, blah, blah"
It is clear Obama fears all of the facts becoming public.

1057 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:01:01am

re: #1046 Walter L. Newton

There you go, seething and raging and squabbling. Keep that up and Avanti will have to go polish a fender or something. That'll teach you.

Heh... windows need caulking today.

1058 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:01:02am

re: #1049 albusteve

a maligned, perverse sense of patriotism imo...

Er, you were being sarcastic, right?

1059 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:01:30am

re: #1036 Walter L. Newton

Ok, that hurt.

Are you farting in my general direction?

1060 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:01:46am

re: #1053 Pianobuff

But just a few posts ago you said they were still in the idea phase. Which is it?

Oh, and if I were on Medicare I'd be very interested in this bill. I bet some of the funding will come right out of Medicare by the time this is done.

That was the point of the governor's conference recently. The states will have to take on a larger burden of the cost of medicare than they already have...and it's breaking them now.

1061 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:02:12am

re: #1051 Killian Bundy

Why the hell should Obama read the Bill? It's not like he even wrote his books himself. It's enough he tells us how good the bill is.

1062 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:02:23am

re: #1059 MandyManners

Are you farting in my general direction?

Oui, je farting dans votre direction générale.

1063 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:02:36am

re: #1051 Killian Bundy

No one's read or even knows what's in the bill, but it's a good bill, it's a really good bill!

/Bonkey talking points

Gotta have it this week or were all DOOMED!

Youtube Video
1064 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:02:44am

re: #1025 lawhawk

It's not that we are going to destroy his Presidency. It's that his own actions and ideas are going to destroy his Presidency from within because he will be exposed as nothing more than a slick huckster. It's all about him. He wants what he wants, and when he doesn't, break out the waaahmbulance. When he's rebuffed from getting what he wants - and his place in history isn't deification, that will be a failure.

That affirms that he is a punk. He can't really think about other people, whatever he says. Its either his way or utter failure. He's me on very bad day, but I actually know when I'm thinking like that and I stop and actually try to understand the situation.

1065 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:02:50am

re: #918 FrogMarch

So it IS about Barack.

'You're going to destroy my presidency.'

how absurd that o thinks "his presidency" can be destroyed if one of his power grabs fails. this shows what a shallow narcissist he is. what a fragile ego he has.
it is actually frightening to think how inept and unqualified he is psychologically.
like a spoiled brat who doesn't get everything he screams for.
o has no ability to roll w/ the punches. he has never had to rely on real strength of character. so many others many always made it easy for him.

now, on the world stage, he is having tantrums.

1066 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:02:52am

re: #1053 Pianobuff

But just a few posts ago you said they were still in the idea phase. Which is it?

Oh, and if I were on Medicare I'd be very interested in this bill. I bet some of the funding will come right out of Medicare by the time this is done.

Anybody with any experience with Gov. and even half a brain knows with Universal Obamacare that all other Gov mandated health plans like Medicare or Medicaid become superfluous.

1067 CommonCents  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:03:08am

re: #1014 avanti

I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm covered by Medicare. I do think we could go slower, but I see the left's problem with that. They need to get some kind of bill passed quickly, or the right will chip away at support by scaring the crap out of the public that wants health insurance.
I'd hope the Dems make some dramatic gesture to stall the attacks, i.e. tort reform, no government option for now or the like.

I have alot of dogs in this fight. It's my money they want to take to pay for this redistribution plan.

By the way, you're welcome for the Medicare taxes I pay.

Isn't it foolish to hope that Dems will make a gesture of tort reform in order to pass a bad bill on health care that will be full of pork crap for specific donors. The new model of reform is to make these bills so large that there are many corners to hide "gifts" in. This isn't transparency, it isn't honesty, it is outright thievery.

1068 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:03:08am

re: #1060 redstateredneck

That was the point of the governor's conference recently. The states will have to take on a larger burden of the cost of medicare than they already have...and it's breaking them now.

Isn't that also a way of hiding the actual costs of the bill to make it appear less expensive to the gullible public?

1069 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:03:23am

re: #1059 MandyManners

Are you farting in my general direction?

That's the last time I sit near you...*turns on fan*

1070 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:03:25am

re: #1009 Dark_Falcon

That's the idea, you punk. We don't like you, and we don't like your policies.

OK, answer me honestly about that quote from a Republication that said he heard it from a Dem.

Say I posted a link that said Sen Kerry talked to a Replication Governor that heard Gov Palin say she wanted to get ID taught in schools. Would you then attack Palin or question my source ? That's all I'm doing.

1071 jcm  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:04:19am

Amendment could allow legal owners to take their concealed weapons across state lines

Under the measure, being offered by Sen. John Thune, R-S.D., visitors would have to abide by state laws where a concealed handgun is allowed.
1072 haakondahl  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:04:19am

re: #933 Daria Emmons
I've trimmed your text:

Prayer itself is based upon the notion that God cares about mankind as a unique creature, apart from animals, enough to answer prayers and even alter the course of history to answer such prayers.

Rather, evolution proposes we are essentially an evolved animal.

I am not sure how someone could be a strong believer of the bible, with man's special relationship with God, and then say that mankind evolved from animals.

I believe even the metaphoric message includes a notion that mankind is unique upon the earth and God answers prayers and cares about mankind.

I do believe there is a conflict in Genesis with the theory of evolution. This is why the theory of evolution has spawned such a controversy, and there are so many religious groups which fight against it!

I understand your argument, so please don't explain it to me in greater detail--I think I summed it up fairly well by editing, no?

You are projecting your interpretation of others' beliefs back onto those persons as limitations upon what else they might believe. People are more than capable of "holding" on one or more mental fronts to allow progress in others. Is it a particle or a wave? I don't know, but I don't have to resolve that in order to use implications from each model in understanding other things more clearly.
I use this example only as a specific incidence of the flexibility of human thought, and the absence of a need to absolutely resolve things before proceeding, and certainly not as any kind of physics/philosophy crossover, which I detest.
The account of Genesis certainly conflicts with other things, but it is possible to simply not resolve those conflicts, and carry on with other things. Like conducting research.
If the rigidity of thought and the well-developed logical sequences of beliefs you have implied were necessarily the way people think, then Christianity, indeed most religions, would be incompatible not only with evolution, but with science, democracy, and any form of decision making. Obviously, this is not the case. There is something which is incompatible with evolution, and that, for lack of a better term, we typically refer to a Young-Earth Creationism, and often just creationism for short.
Inherent in those labels are the understanding that we are discussing somebody who DOES see the Genesis conflict as irreconcilable, and therefore they move no further than that, except when perverting and corrupting other fields of inquiry to match that inflexible understanding.
But notice that nothing has been said of God here. Belief in God is compatible with just about everything, with I suppose the exception of the denial of God's existence. Other factors which accompany faith, or which occur in the absence of faith; i.e., which have absolutely no relation to faith, are what make people unable to accept the straightforward arguments and clear evidence for evolution.
Ya got your YECs. Ya got your flat-earth Panspermians.
I suppose you'll anger some of the faithful, because you are pigeonholing them, saying, "well, you can't believe this and also believe this", when clearly, they can and some do.

1073 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:04:26am

re: #1062 Walter L. Newton

Oui, je farting dans votre direction générale.

Walter! You spoke French!

1074 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:04:35am

re: #1058 Walter L. Newton

Er, you were being sarcastic, right?

of course not...avanti is the worst example of a patriotic American on this entire blog...some people give him a pass but I don't...his blind faith is repugnant to me

1075 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:04:42am

re: #1063 VegasRick

By the way Fedex has real good dental coverage

1076 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:05:36am

re: #1074 albusteve

of course not...avanti is the worst example of a patriotic American on this entire blog...some people give him a pass but I don't...his blind faith is repugnant to me

Sorry, you "bolded" my text, and I thought you were address that remark to me.

1077 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:06:02am

re: #1068 Pianobuff

Isn't that also a way of hiding the actual costs of the bill to make it appear less expensive to the gullible public?

No doubt.

1078 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:06:08am

re: #1070 avanti

OK, answer me honestly about that quote from a Republication that said he heard it from a Dem.

Say I posted a link that said Sen Kerry talked to a Replication Governor that heard Gov Palin say she wanted to get ID taught in schools. Would you then attack Palin or question my source ? That's all I'm doing.


Depends on if it's a Dem. A Dem would attack Palin. A Republican would question your source.

1079 haakondahl  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:06:14am

re: #964 BlueCanuck

Actually, I have read "Parafaith War". Was a few years ago, so I might have to brush up on it. Two interstellar cultures, one religous based, and the other more secular right?

/actually details are starting to come to the surface now that I think about it.

Most definitely, re-read it. I try not to say too much about it, and instead let some of the connections dawn as friends read it.

1080 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:06:18am

re: #1069 scottishbuzzsaw

That's the last time I sit near you...*turns on fan*

I'M THE VICTIM HERE! WALTER IS LAUNCHING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AT ME!

1081 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:07:12am

re: #1070 avanti

OK, answer me honestly about that quote from a Republication that said he heard it from a Dem.

Say I posted a link that said Sen Kerry talked to a Replication Governor that heard Gov Palin say she wanted to get ID taught in schools. Would you then attack Palin or question my source ? That's all I'm doing.

You're calling either jammiewearingfool, the un-named Democrat or Sen. Grassley a liar.

1082 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:07:29am

re: #1073 MandyManners

Walter! You spoke French!

He thinks it makes his farts smell like parfum.

1083 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:07:32am

re: #1068 Pianobuff

Isn't that also a way of hiding the actual costs of the bill to make it appear less expensive to the gullible public?

Not only that but what ever the "Honest" estimate costs of any program is, you can basically double that.

1084 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:07:58am

re: #1061 Kenneth

Why the hell should Obama read the Bill? It's not like he even wrote his books himself. It's enough he tells us how good the bill is.


Wait, Obama is a great writer. How about his Law Review articles?
Oh that's right, he never submitted any. President of the Harvard Law Review & no articles? Bull

1085 formercorpsman  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:08:23am

For anyone I did not respond to, I am sorry. My computer slowed down to a stop.

Up front, I will not begrudge Avanti because he has earned his Navy pension, social security, or medicare. He paid into, he earned it. We can disagree on politics totally, but he did serve, and nobody can take that away.

Having said that, I don't think more a bad thing is a good thing either. If you go back, and take a look at what medicare & social security were meant to be from their inception, compared to what they have become, I can't label that a success.

A little irony that just hit me, is the clip where Obama is talking about us not eating as much as we want as being responsible citizens, but he has fed the government as if it were his Prader Willi child.

1086 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:08:23am

re: #1076 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, you "bolded" my text, and I thought you were address that remark to me.

you're a good Neanderthal, and I would share a Shirley Temple with you anyday

1087 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:08:35am

re: #1002 MandyManners

No, he says he quoted a Republican, that said he talked to a Democrat, who said he heard Obama say the quote. He reported what he heard was heard.

1088 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:09:00am

re: #1072 haakondahl

I believe in God.
I accept the scientific validity of evolution.
I see no conflict between science and faith.

1089 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:10:07am

re: #1053 Pianobuff

But just a few posts ago you said they were still in the idea phase. Which is it?

Oh, and if I were on Medicare I'd be very interested in this bill. I bet some of the funding will come right out of Medicare by the time this is done.

They're already openly discussing reducing Medicare benefits...and this from the Dems who scream bloody murder any time a Republican suggests that an increase in an entitlement program be reduced.

1090 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:10:20am

Must Read From Jake Tapper's Blog:

Facing Blue Dog Rebellion, House Energy and Commerce Committee Cancels Markup for 2nd Day in a Row

At 5:54 pm ET the news came: "The Energy and Commerce Markup of H.R. 3200 – America’s Affordable Health Choices Act for 7-22-09 has been CANCELLED.

Not a good sign for the Democrats trying to report the bill out from committee onto the floor for a vote. Seven conservative blue dog Democrats on the committee have said they can't vote for the bill in its current form. Some of those Blue Dogs came to the White House today for a 2 1/2 meeting, an hour of which was with President Obama.

In the last nine days the president has spoken publicly about health care reform nine times. Tomorrow night, in a prime time press conference, will make it 10 times in 10 days.

But despite this push it seemed less likely today that Democrats would be able to come together to agree on an actual bill

The White House expressed irritation at Republican obstructionism and "playing politics," but Republicans countered that it's unfair to blame them -- pointing to the substantial majorities Democrats have in the House and Senate.

"If the bill fails," said House Minority Whip Eric Cantor, R-Virginia, "it will be because of disagreement among the Democrats."

White House officials have backed off the August deadline, and now say the deadline was a way to poke and prod Congress to act.

1091 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:10:48am

I cannot get nationaljournal.com to load.

1092 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:10:50am

re: #1080 MandyManners

I'M THE VICTIM HERE! WALTER IS LAUNCHING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AT ME!

Hillary has an umbrella you could borrow to thwart the attack.

1093 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:10:51am

re: #1070 avanti

OK, answer me honestly about that quote from a Republication that said he heard it from a Dem.

Say I posted a link that said Sen Kerry talked to a Replication Governor that heard Gov Palin say she wanted to get ID taught in schools. Would you then attack Palin or question my source ? That's all I'm doing.

It's not a case of equal sources, avanti. John Kerry has a severe problem with the truth. Even anonymous sources have more credibility than he does.

1094 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:11:26am

re: #1075 Nevergiveup

By the way Fedex has real good dental coverage

If those drivers were more conscientious about wearing their seat belts, they wouldn't be getting their teeth knocked out all the time.

/

1095 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:11:33am

re: #1087 avanti

No, he says he quoted a Republican, that said he talked to a Democrat, who said he heard Obama say the quote. He reported what he heard was heard.

And you quoted Democratic talking points that we have to rush this Frankenstein Health Bill thru because it has been "60 years" in the making?

1096 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:11:41am

re: #1087 avanti

No, he says he quoted a Republican, that said he talked to a Democrat, who said he heard Obama say the quote. He reported what he heard was heard.

So, who's the liar?

1097 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:11:58am

I think it is a leap to assume from this second-hand story that "you're going to destroy my presidency" was meant in a personal sense (i.e., your opposing the healthcare plan will result in destroying my presidency which will hurt my self-esteem/feelings.) Even if the phrase was retold accurately, Obama could very well have meant this in a political sense (i.e., your oppossition to the plan will destroy my presidency and thus destroy the political goals you (supposedly) believe in.

1098 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:12:49am

Gotta' get some food into my tummy. bbiab

1099 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:12:55am

re: #1030 Walter L. Newton

Walter, I meant it is not a issue I'm following as closely as I would if I was not insured, not that it's a trivial matter.

1100 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:13:11am

uh oh. I just thought of something.

A lot of docs currently refuse medicare patients. The full cost of the care is not reimbursed to them and the paperwork is a bitch.

Under ObamaCare will that still be allowed? 'Cuz if they cut those benefits even more and add another layer of bureaucracy a lot more docs will want to opt out.

1101 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:13:22am

re: #1083 Nevergiveup

Not only that but what ever the "Honest" estimate costs of any program is, you can basically double that.

Not only that - its a recipe for increasing bureaucracy.

Here's a report from the UK:
DailyMail.co.uk: Number of managers employed by NHS managers soars by 9%... so there are 15,000 more pen-pushers than midwives

From that link:
'The number of people working for the NHS has hit an all-time high, driven by a rise in the number of managers which outstripped the increase in nurses four to one.

Official figures reveal there are now 1.37 million people working in the Health Service, including 39,900 administrators - 5,000 more than the number of consultants and 15,000 more than the number of midwives.

The number of managers soared by 9.4 per cent in just one year, compared to just 2.1 per cent for nurses and 2.3 per cent for midwives, with the number of midwives falling in some areas.'

(My emphasis)

1102 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:13:28am

re: #1078 kansas

Depends on if it's a Dem. A Dem would attack Palin. A Republican would question your source.

Yep, I agree.

1103 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:13:35am

re: #1096 MandyManners

So, who's the liar?

Of the 4 possibilities I'd guess Avanti.

1104 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:14:03am

re: #1097 Flyers1974

I think it is a leap to assume from this second-hand story that "you're going to destroy my presidency" was meant in a personal sense (i.e., your opposing the healthcare plan will result in destroying my presidency which will hurt my self-esteem/feelings.) Even if the phrase was retold accurately, Obama could very well have meant this in a political sense (i.e., your oppossition to the plan will destroy my presidency and thus destroy the political goals you (supposedly) believe in.

that's splittin it pretty fine...good one

1105 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:14:21am

Avanti:

You're clearly not reading the bill as it currently is envisioned, because Medicare would cease to exist as it is currently formed, and would be replaced with a system that rations care to control costs.

1106 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:14:34am

re: #1091 MandyManners

I cannot get nationaljournal.com to load.

I haven't been able to get it to load all morning. If you're looking for the article on Obama's presidency being destroyed JWF has some of it here.

1107 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:14:49am

re: #977 Killian Bundy

New GM to launch fragrance line

/we paid $50 billion for [expletive deleted] like this?

Years ago, when I worked at GM, I suggested making nail polish to match the car colors.

1108 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:14:56am

re: #1095 Nevergiveup

And you quoted Democratic talking points that we have to rush this Frankenstein Health Bill thru because it has been "60 years" in the making?

Sixty years?!? Is 0bama lying about his age? Is he like Dick Clark?

1109 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:15:02am

re: #1099 avanti

Walter, I meant it is not a issue I'm following as closely as I would if I was not insured, not that it's a trivial matter.

Don't you get it? If this monstrosity ever sees the light of day and passes, YOUR health care WILL be impacted? And not positively?

1110 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:15:09am
1111 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:15:35am

re: #1099 avanti

Walter, I meant it is not a issue I'm following as closely as I would if I was not insured, not that it's a trivial matter.

why don't you say what you mean the first time...spin it harder

1112 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:16:00am

re: #1110 taxfreekiller

now the liberals will change the subject

back to global warming

Ummm... Sarah Palin. Yeah.

1113 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:16:05am

re: #1107 Alouette

Years ago, when I worked at GM, I suggested making nail polish to match the car colors.

And?

Did they do it?

I think its a fabulous idea!

1114 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:16:14am

re: #1099 avanti

Walter, I meant it is not a issue I'm following as closely as I would if I was not insured, not that it's a trivial matter.

When you admit that the dems could give a fuck less about anybody's health care (except their own) and realize that this is a power/money grab you will be taken more seriously here.

1115 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:16:18am

re: #1099 avanti

Walter, I meant it is not a issue I'm following as closely as I would if I was not insured, not that it's a trivial matter.

So basically, your attitude here is, "I've got mine, fuck all the rest of you!"

1116 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:16:27am

re: #977 Killian Bundy

New GM to launch fragrance line

Sputtering General Motors Co., just out of a quick drive through bankruptcy court, will soon be using its iconic Cadillac brand to sell a line of fragrance for men.

Beauty Contact Inc., a Dubai-based cosmetic company and holder of the fragrance licence, said yesterday it will launch the Cadillac line in stores this fall to mark the brand's 100th anniversary.

"Cadillac, the new fragrance for men is part of the recent Cadillac renaissance: Hot new products and redesigns that capture the mantra of life, liberty and the pursuit," said Alwyn Stephen, a Beauty Contact director.

"Our fragrance is a relevant extension of the Cadillac lifestyle."


/we paid $50 billion for [expletive deleted] like this?

It will have that "new car" smell.

1117 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:17:41am

re: #1113 yma o hyd

And?

Did they do it?

I think its a fabulous idea!

I wish they would have done it. In 2001, the last time I bought a new car, I went out and had my nails done in the same color as my new car. You know that nail polish is made from the same formula as car paint.

1118 Kenneth  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:17:43am

Obama has the CIA's back -- in his sights
Democrat's attack on covert anti-terror plan won't please Americans
By John R. Bolton

The Obama administration ignores this widespread and entirely understandable thinking at its peril. When and where clandestine operations, including assassinations, can be effective is obviously a difficult question but it is one that has to be answered based on the circumstances presented, not through partisan arguments couched at the bumper-sticker level. In fact, unlike the administration, most Americans probably were more surprised and distressed that the CIA assassination plan was never implemented than that it existed.

That is why leaking the program and attributing its "suppression" from public knowledge to former Vice President Dick Cheney and then launching full-scale congressional investigations are actions Mr. Obama and his supporters soon will regret.

1119 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:18:15am

re: #1110 taxfreekiller

now the liberals will change the subject

back to global warming

Climate change. Global warming's not convenient right now. High of 72 degrees in Louisville today.

1120 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:18:42am

re: #1105 lawhawk

Avanti:

You're clearly not reading the bill as it currently is envisioned, because Medicare would cease to exist as it is currently formed, and would be replaced with a system that rations care to control costs.


That's right we will all be one big happy family heading to single payer rationing. BHO apparently thinks that it is unfair for Americans to have good healthcare when so much of the world suffers under single payer.

1121 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:18:50am

avanti...you are a fool if you do not see that BO will cut your throat...I keep telling you...now lawhawk is telling you via 1105...it's your drooling neck too

1122 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:19:05am
For heaven’s sake, do you need any further proof that ID, right or wrong, is at any rate an authentically Jewish cause?

I don't need any further proof that ID, being wrong, is an authentically religious cause.

/and good evening from your resident cynic! 0:

1123 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:19:14am

re: #1113 yma o hyd

And?

Did they do it?

I think its a fabulous idea!

I don't think "magnesium" colored nails would work for me...Morning, {yma}!

1124 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:19:23am

re: #1118 Kenneth

Obama has the CIA's back -- in his sights
Democrat's attack on covert anti-terror plan won't please Americans
By John R. Bolton

I hate these people more everyday.

1125 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:19:23am

re: #1041 kansas

I've got my Navy pension, and social security, and Medicare. I got mine so fuck you.
Sincerely,

Avanti

I think you misread my comment about a dog in the fight. i.e. if there was a bill restricting old car ownership, you might be less effected then I, and spent less time discussing the bill, since it will impact you much less than me.

1126 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:20:46am

re: #1125 avanti

I think you misread my comment about a dog in the fight. i.e. if there was a bill restricting old car ownership, you might be less effected then I, and spent less time discussing the bill, since it will impact you much less than me.

do you support BOs proposed health care plan?

1127 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:20:56am

re: #1125 avanti

I think you misread my comment about a dog in the fight. i.e. if there was a bill restricting old car ownership, you might be less effected then I, and spent less time discussing the bill, since it will impact you much less than me.

Careful. Old car ownership may be next.

1128 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:21:01am

re: #1107 Alouette

Years ago, when I worked at GM, I suggested making nail polish to match the car colors.

I got a little bottle of touch up paint with a brush that I could have used on my nails when I got my GMC Yukon.

1129 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:21:14am

re: #1110 taxfreekiller

now the liberals will change the subject

back to global warming

I don't think they can do that, tfk. Cap-and-Tax looks like it doesn't have sixty votes in the Senate, which means it falls to a filibuster.

1130 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:21:56am

re: #1118 Kenneth

Obama has the CIA's back -- in his sights
Democrat's attack on covert anti-terror plan won't please Americans
By John R. Bolton

Mean time, every CIA operative is busy not doing anything even slightly risky for fear that it will be his neck on the block next. Back to September 10th...

1131 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:22:19am

BB later.

1132 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:22:24am

re: #1117 Alouette

I wish they would have done it. In 2001, the last time I bought a new car, I went out and had my nails done in the same color as my new car. You know that nail polish is made from the same formula as car paint.

Jeeze! Here I've been going to the nail salon and my husband sells DuPont automotive paint. I coulda been gettin' it for free!

1133 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:22:31am

re: #1115 Alouette

So basically, your attitude here is, "I've got mine, fuck all the rest of you!"

But he is so in the bag for the Liberal Democratic line He doesn't see his health care is at stake also? Maybe he is sniffing to much of that glue he uses to put in car windows?

1134 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:22:46am
1135 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:22:49am

re: #1125 avanti

I think you misread my comment about a dog in the fight. i.e. if there was a bill restricting old car ownership, you might be less effected then I, and spent less time discussing the bill, since it will impact you much less than me.

Wrong

1136 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:23:10am

re: #1072 haakondahl

I've trimmed your text:


I understand your argument, so please don't explain it to me in greater detail--I think I summed it up fairly well by editing, no?

You are projecting your interpretation of others' beliefs back onto those persons as limitations upon what else they might believe. People are more than capable of "holding" on one or more mental fronts to allow progress in others. Is it a particle or a wave? I don't know, but I don't have to resolve that in order to use implications from each model in understanding other things more clearly.
I use this example only as a specific incidence of the flexibility of human thought, and the absence of a need to absolutely resolve things before proceeding, and certainly not as any kind of physics/philosophy crossover, which I detest.
The account of Genesis certainly conflicts with other things, but it is possible to simply not resolve those conflicts, and carry on with other things. Like conducting research.
If the rigidity of thought and the well-developed logical sequences of beliefs you have implied were necessarily the way people think, then Christianity, indeed most religions, would be incompatible not only with evolution, but with science, democracy, and any form of decision making. Obviously, this is not the case. There is something which is incompatible with evolution, and that, for lack of a better term, we typically refer to a Young-Earth Creationism, and often just creationism for short.
Inherent in those labels are the understanding that we are discussing somebody who DOES see the Genesis conflict as irreconcilable, and therefore they move no further than that, except when perverting and corrupting other fields of inquiry to match that inflexible understanding.
But notice that nothing has been said of God here. Belief in God is compatible with just about everything, with I suppose the exception of the denial of God's existence. Other factors which accompany faith, or which occur in the absence of faith; i.e., which have absolutely no relation to faith, are what make people unable to accept the straightforward arguments and clear evidence for evolution.
Ya got your YECs. Ya got your flat-earth Panspermians.
I suppose you'll anger some of the faithful, because you are pigeonholing them, saying, "well, you can't believe this and also believe this", when clearly, they can and some do.

If you keep evolution in a compartmentalized section of your brain when you go to the church/synagogue/mosque/what have you, then I agree with all that you wrote.

I never said to not conduct research or not be a scientist. Please show me where I implied it, because I certainly never meant to imply it.

I met a brilliant neuroscientist who also happened to be a very religious Jew and an ID-er. But she was a brilliant neuroscientist and did not think about ID when she was at work.

People of course are more than capable of discarding certain thoughts in various situations. If we are honest with ourselves, that is what would lead to peace in the Middle East - for Muslims to simply discard the bad parts of the Koran, keep the good, and go on with their lives.

But if we are honest ourselves, we should acknowledge there is a conflict between science and classical concepts of religion. There is a conflict, but there doesn't have to be battle in the classroom. The easiest way to resolve this conflict is for evolution to be taught in science class, and to have a seperate theology or ethics class to discuss various philosophies about the creation of Man. This way, science is not seen as battling religion, and vice versa.

1137 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:23:32am

re: #1127 KenJen

Careful. Old car ownership may be next.

And I would be one of many here to stand up for Avanti's right. Unlike others here that would not stand up for mine.

1138 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:23:54am

re: #1117 Alouette

I wish they would have done it. In 2001, the last time I bought a new car, I went out and had my nails done in the same color as my new car. You know that nail polish is made from the same formula as car paint.

Yep - and nowadays any colour is fine: yellow, green, blue, even black!

(I personally would draw the line at brown nail polish, but thats just me ...)

1139 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:24:23am

re: #1106 eschew_obfuscation

I haven't been able to get it to load all morning. If you're looking for the article on Obama's presidency being destroyed JWF has some of it here.

That's the source I've been reading this morning.

1140 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:24:35am

re: #1132 redstateredneck

Jeeze! Here I've been going to the nail salon and my husband sells DuPont automotive paint. I coulda been gettin' it for free!

Heh... but couldn't finding a car in your shade be a bit tricky?

1141 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:24:43am

re: #1096 MandyManners

So, who's the liar?

If you are saying you'll assume every third hand quote from the left about someone on the right is dead nuts accurate, and the reverse, I'm confused.

1142 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:25:26am

re: #1128 redstateredneck

I got a little bottle of touch up paint with a brush that I could have used on my nails when I got my GMC Yukon.

When Jennifer Lopez was asked what she got on her SAT's, she answered, "Nail polish."

1143 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:26:10am

re: #1126 albusteve

do you support BOs proposed health care plan?

express yourself...it's an easy yes or no question

1144 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:26:14am

re: #1136 Daria Emmons

You're starting to make me think you're a shill for ID rather than being confused. ID IS NOT the same thing as theistic evolution. It is not science either. People who accept evolution and God ARE NOT believers in intelligent design.

ID DOES NOT ACCEPT EVOLUTION!

1145 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:26:34am

Watch FOX News Channel and FOXNews.com for a live broadcast of President Obama's prime-time press conference at 8 p.m. ET.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Will the Republicans get equal time?

1146 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:26:55am

re: #1141 avanti

If you are saying you'll assume every third hand quote from the left about someone on the right is dead nuts accurate, and the reverse, I'm confused.

Sums it up.

1147 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:27:07am

re: #1118 Kenneth

Obama has the CIA's back -- in his sights
Democrat's attack on covert anti-terror plan won't please Americans
By John R. Bolton

Thanks for that - The Moustache is in fine form here!
I enjoyed reading this.

1148 johnnyreb  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:27:17am

re: #1041 kansas

I've got my Navy pension, and social security, and Medicare. I got mine so fuck you.
Sincerely,

Avanti

I got my navy pension, my wife's Navy pension and my VA and we both work full time and I am friggin scared of Obamacare. That mostly stems from my treatment at the VA. America your health care will work exactly like the VA does now. Not enough doctors and the good ones wind up quitting because they are overwhelmed. I just got approved for a knee replacement through the VA and I am dreading it.

1149 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:27:40am

Meanwhile, in Malaysia:

[Link: www.google.com...]

1150 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:28:01am

re: #1140 eschew_obfuscation

Heh... but couldn't finding a car in your shade be a bit tricky?

I could get ChromaLusion...it changes colors!

1151 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:28:09am

re: #1136 Daria Emmons

That would be a mistake. A separate class would promptly become the next battlefield. Theology classes can deal with various religion's explanation for the origin of humans as part of the normal study of those religions. Your plan is unneeded; Just teach evolution in science classes and keep religion in the normal religious studies classes.

1152 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:28:15am

re: #1123 scottishbuzzsaw

I don't think "magnesium" colored nails would work for me...Morning, {yma}!

Hiya, {scottie}!

You never know - give it a 'fashionable' name and girrrls will buy it by the ton!

1153 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:28:42am

re: #1145 Nevergiveup

Watch FOX News Channel and FOXNews.com for a live broadcast of President Obama's prime-time press conference at 8 p.m. ET.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Will the Republicans get equal time?

Nope...they don't have the taxpayers to pay for it //
(no, I haven't done thorough research to prove that' what's happening)

1154 califleftyb  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:28:49am

Most of the time I can't join their clubs because I'm a Jew...now I find myself a member of a club I don't want to join!

1155 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:28:52am

re: #1104 albusteve

that's splittin it pretty fine...good one

The briefness of your reply made it very funny, I must admit.

1156 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:29:38am

re: #1144 Sharmuta

Religion generally does not accept evolution. From what I've learned, mankind came up with the concept of religion because evolution created an organism complex enough to do so.

1157 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:29:54am

re: #1152 yma o hyd

Hiya, {scottie}!

You never know - give it a 'fashionable' name and girrrls will buy it by the ton!

Yeah, Urban Decay cosmetic line comes to mind.

1158 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:30:09am

re: #1150 redstateredneck

I could get ChromaLusion...it changes colors!

No, no, no... that's what chameleons do! ... not Lizards!

1159 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:30:14am

re: #1145 Nevergiveup

Watch FOX News Channel and FOXNews.com for a live broadcast of President Obama's prime-time press conference at 8 p.m. ET.
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Will the Republicans get equal time?

Will BO be on time?
Yes +800
No - 750
Fuckers always late. Disrespectful.

1160 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:30:32am

re: #1153 eschew_obfuscation

Nope...they don't have the taxpayers to pay for it //
(no, I haven't done thorough research to prove that' what's happening)

Then they should pony up the cash and respond. This is IMPORTANT. Hey Republicans grow a pair and fight back

1161 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:30:32am

re: #1137 VegasRick

And I would be one of many here to stand up for Avanti's right. Unlike others here that would not stand up for mine.

Just as I would stand up for your second amendment right to a gun, even though I don't own one. I'm sorry if I'm not as heavily affected by health insurance reform as others might be, but I certainly support your right to discuss it and get the changes you seek.

1162 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:30:54am

re: #1023 Jimmah

Awesome.

Hey Jimmah-- popping back in, sorry I missed you. Saw your links on Chicken Tikka Masala though. :) Yum.

But is it really a Glasgow dish? My understanding is that it's anglo-indian and invented in india to please the british palate.

1163 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:31:00am

re: #1158 eschew_obfuscation

No, no, no... that's what chameleons do! ... not Lizards!

The anoles around my house change when they jump from the bushes to the brick walls.

1164 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:31:02am

re: #1156 laZardo

The Catholic Church supports evolution, and so do other Christian denominations and religions. Not all religion is fundamentalist.

1165 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:31:06am

avanti

"I believe that this trend [towards increasing government involvement in medical care], including many of the steps that have already been taken, is very much against the interests of patients, of physicians and of other health care personnel," Milton Friedman warned a Mayo Clinic audience thirty years ago. We know in our gut that socialized medicine won't work in our interests because the incentives are perversely turned upside down when government, not the patient, is client. Friedman explains:

Milton Friedman at the Mayo clinic 30 years ago.

Socialized Medicine for Stupid People
(h/t Sissy in the spinoffs)

1166 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:31:55am

Smart action by the Mormons:

Mormon leader brings family records to Obama

It won't please the nirthers, but it does help make clear to normal people that the Nirthers are nuts.

1167 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:32:04am

re: #1161 avanti

Just as I would stand up for your second amendment right to a gun, even though I don't own one. I'm sorry if I'm not as heavily affected by health insurance reform as others might be, but I certainly support your right to discuss it and get the changes you seek.

You keep saying that. You will be DIRECTLY AND INTIMATELY affected by this. Sorry for the language, but get your head out of your ass and listen.

1168 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:32:36am

re: #1149 Mad Al-Jaffee

Meanwhile, in Malaysia:

[Link: www.google.com...]


Well, I guess she's lucky. In any other muslim country she would be killed for being a model./ Sorta

1169 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:32:39am

Louisiana Tells Congress: Stop Healthcare Discrimination


In June 2009, the Louisiana Legislature unanimously passed a resolution asking Congress to stop healthcare discrimination for five million of the oldest, poorest, sickest, and most disabled people in the nation. These are dually eligible people -- poor Medicare beneficiaries who also have Medicaid. They are the most costly population covered by any public healthcare program. In 2005, they cost Medicare and Medicaid almost $200 billion. NACDEP, the National Coalition for Dually Eligible People, supports Louisiana with its Position Paper at [Link: www.nacdep.org....]
1170 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:32:50am

re: #1164 Sharmuta

That would be mainly because "the Pope [or respective religious leader thereof] said so," wouldn't it?

1171 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:32:52am

re: #1157 redstateredneck

Yeah, Urban Decay cosmetic line comes to mind.

Yep.
And Essie, and NailsInc, and Hard Candy ...

See - it doesn't even have to be something from the Fwench Fashion Houses!

1172 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:33:39am

re: #1126 albusteve

do you support BOs proposed health care plan?

Good point, I wish he had one. He left it to congress to write one, and they really need some direction from the top. When we get closer to plan, I'll let you know.

1173 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:34:19am

re: #1160 Nevergiveup

Then they should pony up the cash and respond. This is IMPORTANT. Hey Republicans grow a pair and fight back

That's kind of an interesting prospect.

Can you imagine a televised running feud with the President over a political issue? It would be very expensive if they could even get the time, but it would certainly reduce the power Obama has from the prestige of his office. (Unfortunately, it could also tarnish the office itself).

1174 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:34:58am

re: #1166 Dark_Falcon

I'm surprised that Obama hosted the leader of the Mormon church . Interesting.

1175 sattv4u2  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:35:22am

re: #1170 laZardo

That would be mainly because "the Pope [or respective religious leader thereof] said so," wouldn't it?

Not at all. If the Pope {[or respective religious leader thereof} said that the earth was flat, a few Catholics would take it as gospel, but the majority would wonder if the Popes mitre was on too tight

1176 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:36:01am

re: #1154 califleftyb

Most of the time I can't join their clubs because I'm a Jew...now I find myself a member of a club I don't want to join!

I'm sure you know what Groucho Marx said about that.

1177 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:36:31am

re: #1174 Flyers1974

I'm surprised that Obama hosted the leader of the Mormon church . Interesting.

Apparently the Mormons do this with every new president

1178 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:36:35am

re: #1173 eschew_obfuscation

That's kind of an interesting prospect.

Can you imagine a televised running feud with the President over a political issue? It would be very expensive if they could even get the time, but it would certainly reduce the power Obama has from the prestige of his office. (Unfortunately, it could also tarnish the office itself).

Already been done, IMHO.

1179 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:36:58am

re: #1141 avanti

If you are saying you'll assume every third hand quote from the left about someone on the right is dead nuts accurate, and the reverse, I'm confused.

I've not said any such thing so stop putting words into my mouth.

I've asked you repeatedly who is lying--jammiewearingfool, the writer at nationaljournal.com, Sen. Grassley or the un-named Democrat. (Yes, I added the nationaljournal.com option just now.)

1180 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:37:02am

re: #1136 Daria Emmons

If you keep evolution in a compartmentalized section of your brain when you go to the church/synagogue/mosque/what have you, then I agree with all that you wrote.

I never said to not conduct research or not be a scientist. Please show me where I implied it, because I certainly never meant to imply it.

I met a brilliant neuroscientist who also happened to be a very religious Jew and an ID-er. But she was a brilliant neuroscientist and did not think about ID when she was at work.

People of course are more than capable of discarding certain thoughts in various situations. If we are honest with ourselves, that is what would lead to peace in the Middle East - for Muslims to simply discard the bad parts of the Koran, keep the good, and go on with their lives.

But if we are honest ourselves, we should acknowledge there is a conflict between science and classical concepts of religion. There is a conflict, but there doesn't have to be battle in the classroom. The easiest way to resolve this conflict is for evolution to be taught in science class, and to have a seperate theology or ethics class to discuss various philosophies about the creation of Man. This way, science is not seen as battling religion, and vice versa.

I don't see why there has to be a conflict. One can believe that G-d started the universe, knowing how it would develop.
Or one could believe that G-d did intervene in the "random" events so they came out the way He wanted.
Or a combination of the two, in particular, interfering in cases where natural selection would not make a difference or where one case out of several would be selected randomly.

1181 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:37:11am

re: #1175 sattv4u2

Not at all. If the Pope {[or respective religious leader thereof} said that the earth was flat, a few Catholics would take it as gospel, but the majority would wonder if the Popes mitre was on too tight.

That wouldn't make the latter group very "faithful" then, would it?

1182 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:37:15am

re: #1174 Flyers1974

I'm surprised that Obama hosted the leader of the Mormon church . Interesting.

He probably insisted on taking a trip to the Mormon Temple, after he saw it from the Beltway and thought it was Disneyland.

1183 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:37:20am

re: #1118 Kenneth

Obama has the CIA's back -- in his sights
Democrat's attack on covert anti-terror plan won't please Americans
By John R. Bolton

this is why o is going to fail. his hard core leftist agenda precludes him from understanding and even addressing the fact that most americans mostly love their country.
o is going too far in bashing america.
he wants to look like a conscientious leader w/ moral integrity.
bull shit.
it is obvious he is putting the enemy first and endangering america.
people see it. they feel it. they are trusting their instincts.

1184 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:37:59am

re: #1150 redstateredneck

I could get ChromaLusion...it changes colors!

That stuff is expensive - I could see a nail polish-sized bottle going for $20-30, easy.

1185 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:38:24am

re: #1165 wahabicorridor

We know in our gut that socialized medicine won't work in our interests because the incentives are perversely turned upside down when government, not the patient, is client.


The problem we face, IMHO, is that way too many voters view themselves as the model medical patient envisioned by the Government. Sadly, they will not learn otherwise until the gov't explains to them that their special case is not in the best interests of society.

1186 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:38:29am

re: #1081 MandyManners

You're calling either jammiewearingfool, the un-named Democrat or Sen. Grassley a liar.

Nope, I'm just not accepting a third hand story without question from the right anymore than I'd expect you to do from the left.

1187 sattv4u2  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:38:39am

re: #1181 laZardo

That wouldn't make the latter group very "faithful" then, would it?

How so? We wouldn't be questioning the Religion or Gods sanity, just the current HUMAN leader at that given time!

1188 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:38:59am

re: #1183 nyc redneck

this is why o is going to fail. his hard core leftist agenda precludes him from understanding and even addressing the fact that most americans mostly love their country.
o is going too far in bashing america.
he wants to look like a conscientious leader w/ moral integrity.
bull shit.
it is obvious he is putting the enemy first and endangering america.
people see it. they feel it. they are trusting their instincts.

And history will blame his failures on racism.

1189 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:38:59am

O can't be liking these number.

53% Now Oppose Congressional Health Care Reform

The health care reform legislation working its way through Congress has lost support over the past month. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 44% of U.S. voters are at least somewhat in favor of the reform effort while 53% are at least somewhat opposed.

Today’s 44% level of support is down from 46% two weeks ago, and 50% in late June.

Opposition has grown from 45% in late June to 49% two weeks ago and 53% today.

As in earlier surveys, those with strong opinions are more likely to oppose the plan rather than support it. The current numbers: 24% strongly favor and 37% strongly oppose.

1190 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:39:37am

re: #1177 wahabicorridor

I wonder how the Mormons got into geneology. Seems kind of random, unless it is related to the religion.

1191 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:39:48am

re: #1187 sattv4u2

How so? We wouldn't be questioning the Religion or Gods sanity, just the current HUMAN leader at that given time!

Said human leader being that God's primary conduit/messenger on Earth.

1192 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:39:53am

re: #1184 Ward Cleaver

That stuff is expensive - I could see a nail polish-sized bottle going for $20-30, easy.

Bling does not come cheap.
;-)

1193 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:40:08am

Pelosi is talking on FOX News which means she is lying.

1194 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:40:28am

re: #1172 avanti

Good point, I wish he had one. He left it to congress to write one, and they really need some direction from the top. When we get closer to plan, I'll let you know.

Ah, the plan is in the future. I'm starting to get it now./

1195 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:40:35am

re: #1172 avanti

Good point, I wish he had one. He left it to congress to write one, and they really need some direction from the top. When we get closer to plan, I'll let you know.

But you've said in a previous post that the reform needs to be passed quickly. Why would you say that if within twenty minutes you are now saying you don't even know if you support it?

Why would you do that?

1196 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:40:54am

I hereby quit trying to nail Jello to the wall.

1197 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:41:01am

re: #1182 Mad Al-Jaffee

He probably insisted on taking a trip to the Mormon Temple, after he saw it from the Beltway and thought it was Disneyland.

Are you referring to the white castle looking building with gold? If so, thanks, always wondered what that was.

1198 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:41:06am

Oh crimeny Quessn Pelosi is on

Get this.

"A cap on your costs, no cap on your benefits'

Repeat 3 times

Mayabe they'll believe it if I just keep saying it.

1199 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:41:12am

re: #1175 sattv4u2

Not at all. If the Pope {[or respective religious leader thereof} said that the earth was flat, a few Catholics would take it as gospel, but the majority would wonder if the Popes mitre was on too tight

Since it wouldn't be a matter of faith or morals (the only areas where "infallibility" apply), it wouldn't be considered authoritative anyway.

1200 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:41:32am

re: #1188 Mad Al-Jaffee

And history will blame his failures on racism.

LOL, who cares as long as he is stopped.

1201 Kragar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:41:55am

re: #1196 MandyManners

I hereby quit trying to nail Jello to the wall.

Use epoxy, much easier

1202 sattv4u2  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:41:57am

re: #1191 laZardo

Said human leader being that God's primary conduit/messenger on Earth.


Said human leader still being HUMAN

Thats the distinction. Yes, he is "God's primary conduit/messenger on Earth.", but if "he" went off the rails the conference of cardinals would nullify him tout suite!

1203 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:41:59am

re: #1195 Pianobuff

But you've said in a previous post that the reform needs to be passed quickly. Why would you say that if within twenty minutes you are now saying you don't even know if you support it?

Why would you do that?

Liberals always do that

1204 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:42:02am

re: #1193 Nevergiveup

Pelosi is talking on FOX News which means she is lying.

Is anyone transcribing her blinks?

1205 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:42:05am

re: #1172 avanti

Good point, I wish he had one. He left it to congress to write one, and they really need some direction from the top. When we get closer to plan, I'll let you know.

you mean from the Executive?...why?...what direction would you consider BO should give Congress?

1206 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:42:08am

re: #1194 KenJen

Ah, the plan is in the future. I'm starting to get it now./

Just pass it now and the 0 will wave his magic wand and make everything great!
/

1207 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:42:29am

re: #1183 nyc redneck

this is why o is going to fail. his hard core leftist agenda precludes him from understanding and even addressing the fact that most americans mostly love their country.
o is going too far in bashing america.
he wants to look like a conscientious leader w/ moral integrity.
bull shit.
it is obvious he is putting the enemy first and endangering america.
people see it. they feel it. they are trusting their instincts.

Yes - and this can easily be tied in with his 'care' plan.
When money is tight, but when one has committed oneself to politics which the taxpayer has to shell out for, then something has got to give.
For lefties like PB0, the choice is easy: cut the military spending, war or no war.

Look no further than the state of our Armed Forces in the UK, and our lads fighting and dying in Helmand/Afghanistan.
Lots of money here for welfare parasites, and for free healthcare (thansk to the taxes of those who work!) - but not for the importnat fight agaisnt terrorism.
Oh - and of course not for those who come back home severely injured ...!

Thats how this will play out, if PB0 gets what he wnats.

1208 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:42:32am

re: #1193 Nevergiveup

Pelosi is talking on FOX News which means she is lying.

Fucking gas-bag says that the "consumers" will have more choices.

1209 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:42:58am

Pelosi - "If you change jobs or lose your job or have a preexisting condition, you cannot be denied coverage."

Okay, but at what cost? Ninny.

1210 sattv4u2  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:43:06am

re: #1201 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Use epoxy, much easier

you really don't need nails to keep epoxy on the wall ,,
'

oh ,, ummm,, wait ,,,nevermind

1211 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:43:15am

re: #1208 MandyManners

Fucking gas-bag says that the "consumers" will have more choices.

She can lie with the best of them

1212 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:43:32am

re: #1201 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Use epoxy, much easier

Nah. I'm done with the Jello.

1213 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:43:37am

re: #1209 midwestgak

Pelosi - "If you change jobs or lose your job or have a preexisting condition, you cannot be denied coverage."

Okay, but at what cost? Ninny.

And if you're over 65, you can forget about getting a pacemaker.

1214 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:44:07am

re: #1191 laZardo

Said human leader being that God's primary conduit/messenger on Earth.

But human, nonetheless. We already ignore his advice and think he and his predecessors nuts on such issues as birth control.

1215 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:44:28am

re: #1211 Nevergiveup

She can lie with the best of them

I'm trying hard to keep an unwanted image out of my mind.

1216 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:44:28am

re: #1195 Pianobuff

But you've said in a previous post that the reform needs to be passed quickly. Why would you say that if within twenty minutes you are now saying you don't even know if you support it?

Why would you do that?

I was asked if I supported Obama's plan and there is none. If we get one next week, month or whatever, I'll give a opinion, but everything is in flux.

1217 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:44:35am

re: #1198 wahabicorridor

Oh crimeny Quessn Pelosi is on

Get this.

"A cap on your costs, no cap on your benefits'

Repeat 3 times

Mayabe they'll believe it if I just keep saying it.

Following that to its logical conclusion... some benefits cost nothing. Brilliant!

What morons elected this maroon?

1218 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:44:40am

re: #1213 Ward Cleaver

And if you're over 65, you can forget about getting a pacemaker.

That's not true. With Obamacare, the pace at which you will meet your maker might even increase?

1219 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:44:42am

re: #1211 Nevergiveup

She can lie with the best of them

Who was that asshole?

1220 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:44:46am

re: #1203 Nevergiveup

Liberals always do that

classic disconnect...and by it's very nature they don't see that...it's a huge problem in this country imo

1221 poteen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:44:48am

re: #1161 avanti

Just as I would stand up for your second amendment right to a gun, even though I don't own one. I'm sorry if I'm not as heavily affected by health insurance reform as others might be, but I certainly support your right to discuss it and get the changes you seek.

A very good friend of mine is USN (Ret) after 36 yrs.
He goes to San Diego VA hospital rather than Long Beach due to a difference in competence and availability of care.
/ He says if he has to go back to LB he'll bring his gun with him.
Admittedly anecdotal, but a common complaint from other vets I know.
If the govt becomes responsible for everyones healthcare, you may very well be adversely affected.

1222 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:44:51am

re: #1196 MandyManners

I hereby quit trying to nail Jello to the wall.

I applaud you.
Trying to nail Jello to the wall is a waste of a good pudding!

1223 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:44:52am

re: #1206 VegasRick

Just pass it now and the 0 will wave his magic wand and make everything great!
/

"Sign on the dotted line now. We will fill in the blanks later. Trust me."-Obama .

1224 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:44:59am

re: #1208 MandyManners

Fucking gas-bag says that the "consumers" will have more choices.

There's only so much variety that can be put into getting it up the old pooper.

1225 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:45:09am

re: #1215 MandyManners

I'm trying hard to keep an unwanted image out of my mind.

OOPs I didn't catch that one--sorry

1226 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:45:40am

re: #1202 sattv4u2

That's where his(/her?) closest ruling counsel would step in. Regardless of the source of the message (whether terrestrial or supernatural), the primary mission of these leaders would be to ensure the flock stays in line.

Man created ideologies - religions included - to help build their societies. These ideologies, along with what is considered "good and evil", evolve, grow and/or die out with time, changing conditions and competition.

1227 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:45:41am

re: #1213 Ward Cleaver

And if you're over 65, you can forget about getting a pacemaker.

For real? That should send the Yuppies to the mats.

1228 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:45:43am

re: #1204 Ward Cleaver

Is anyone transcribing her blinks?

She blinks in Morse code? S. . . .O . . .S. . .S . . .O . . . S. . .I . . .C.a.n.'.t . . .M.o.v.e . . .M.y . . .F.o.r.e.h.e.a.d. . . .T.o.o. . . . M.u.c.h. . . . B.o.t.o.x . . .

1229 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:45:46am

re: #1197 Flyers1974

Are you referring to the white castle looking building with gold? If so, thanks, always wondered what that was.

Yeah, this one: [Link: www.ldschurchtemples.com...]

You're welcome. When me and my brother were kids, my father used to tell us it was Disneyland.

Someone once painted "Surrender Dorothy!" on an overpass near the temple. They never should have removed that graffitti.

1230 Kragar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:46:07am

Pelosi blinks in morse code.

1231 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:46:13am

re: #1204 Ward Cleaver

Is anyone transcribing her blinks?

It's morse code to the mothership. It says, "I think we've got a problem, start using the mind control ray on the Capital Building again."

1232 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:46:30am

re: #1216 avanti

I was asked if I supported Obama's plan and there is none. If we get one next week, month or whatever, I'll give a opinion, but everything is in flux.

You didn't answer my question. You also said in a previous post that it needs to be passed right away. Do you not see a conflict in your own positions between? it must be passed right away / I'll wait and see and decide if I like it then. You do not see a contradiction there?

1233 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:46:39am

re: #1213 Ward Cleaver

And if you're over 65, you can forget about getting a pacemaker.

Dick Morris and his wife have a good editorial on it.

1234 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:46:48am

re: #1188 Mad Al-Jaffee

And history will blame his failures on racism.

I doubt it. Enough people voted for Obama (who are presumably not racist in regard to him at least) that it would be pretty difficult to blame failure on the race card. Unless Obama pushed that theme himself, which I don't think would happen.

1235 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:46:52am

re: #1209 midwestgak

Pelosi - "If you change jobs or lose your job or have a preexisting condition, you cannot be denied coverage."

Okay, but at what cost? Ninny.

To her cost is irrelevant. Cost benefit is just evil capitalism oppressing people. twit.

1236 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:46:59am

Sharmuta quote-of-the-day time. Who said this:

When and how to use fear is a political art.

-?

1237 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:47:08am

re: #1214 Honorary Yooper

But human, nonetheless. We already ignore his advice and think he and his predecessors nuts on such issues as birth control.

Not that there would be any 'penalty' to doing so apart from what is imprinted on the mind through the education of an ideology/religion. Such imprints often wear off or grow deeper depending on what happens as people grow up.

1238 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:47:16am

re: #1216 avanti

I was asked if I supported Obama's plan and there is none. If we get one next week, month or whatever, I'll give a opinion, but everything is in flux.

I don't think you have the capacitor to understand that.
/

1239 dwells38  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:47:22am

re: #858 Nevergiveup

Clinton: U.S. Will Extend 'Defense Umbrella' Over Gulf if Iran Obtains Nuclear Weapons
Secretary of state warns Iran that the United States would extend a "defense umbrella" over its allies in the Persian Gulf if the Islamic Republic obtains a nuclear weapons capability.

By James Rosen

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

For those of you who don't understand surrenderese: We just raised the white flag and gave up.

How can she credibly make such a threat? Didn't I just read last month that Obama intends to make major cuts to missile defense?

1240 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:47:23am

re: #1198 wahabicorridor

Oh crimeny Quessn Pelosi is on

Get this.

"A cap on your costs, no cap on your benefits'

Repeat 3 times

Mayabe they'll believe it if I just keep saying it.

You ain't seen nuthin yet.
Of course there won't be a cap on your benefits - but Pelosi et al define what these benefits are going to be ...

Like - you're entitled to a bottle of aspirin a month, and some sticking plaster.
Anything above - you pay for ... ain't in the list of benefits.

Easy, no?

1241 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:47:36am

re: #1196 MandyManners

I hereby quit trying to nail Jello to the wall.


Who is "Jello"?

1242 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:47:40am

re: #1208 MandyManners

Fucking gas-bag says that the "consumers" will have more choices.

So one choice will be more choices? Sounds rather Orwellian.

BTW, if Obama is worried about this destroying his presidency, I have this to say:
Fuck you and your fucking presidency and your fucking legacy, motherfucking narcissistic asshole.

1243 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:47:43am

re: #1222 yma o hyd

I applaud you.
Trying to nail Jello to the wall is a waste of a good pudding!

And, nails and walls.

1244 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:47:45am

re: #1236 Sharmuta

Derived from Machiavelli's "Better to be feared than loved or hated?"

1245 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:47:47am

re: #1221 poteen

A very good friend of mine is USN (Ret) after 36 yrs.
He goes to San Diego VA hospital rather than Long Beach due to a difference in competence and availability of care.
/ He says if he has to go back to LB he'll bring his gun with him.
Admittedly anecdotal, but a common complaint from other vets I know.
If the govt becomes responsible for everyones healthcare, you may very well be adversely affected.

I've been damn lucky too. I'll be 67 next month and the only reason I go to a doctor every few years is my wife forces me. She'd agree with you that I should pay more attention to health care issues.

1246 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:48:03am

re: #1216 avanti

I was asked if I supported Obama's plan and there is none. If we get one next week, month or whatever, I'll give a opinion, but everything is in flux.

that is simply not true, you are lying...re read #1126

1247 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:48:15am
1248 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:48:26am

Does this Molly person speaking now understand that under ObamaCare she won't have to worry about her house because she won't be getting the drugs in the first place?

1249 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:48:31am

re: #1236 Sharmuta

Sharmuta quote-of-the-day time. Who said this:

When and how to use fear is a political art.

-?

McCarthy?

1250 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:48:36am

re: #1235 Dark_Falcon

To her cost is irrelevant. Cost benefit is just evil capitalism oppressing people. twit.

The national plan will not be her problem either as she will be exempt. smuck.

1251 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:48:38am

re: #1236 Sharmuta

Sharmuta quote-of-the-day time. Who said this:

When and how to use fear is a political art.

-?

Mao? Alinksy?

1252 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:48:50am

re: #1238 VegasRick

I don't think you have the capacitor to understand that.
/

Won't be surprised if our cars won't even be fast enough to travel back in time after a decade or so.

1253 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:48:54am

re: #1244 laZardo

Derived from Machiavelli's "Better to be feared than loved or hated?"

My first thought.

1254 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:48:56am
1255 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:49:04am

re: #1245 avanti

I've been damn lucky too. I'll be 67 next month and the only reason I go to a doctor every few years is my wife forces me. She'd agree with you that I should pay more attention to health care issues.

Then go play with your cars and sign you wife on

1256 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:49:29am

re: #1241 Mad Al-Jaffee

Who is "Jello"?

Here's a hint: AVANTI.

1257 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:49:31am

re: #1209 midwestgak

Pelosi - "If you change jobs or lose your job or have a preexisting condition, you cannot be denied coverage."

Okay, but at what cost? Ninny.

You can name your price, like the Progressive ads.
Just be warned that the cheaper plans were designed by Dr. Kervorkian and the Soylent Green company.
///

1258 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:49:33am

re: #1229 Mad Al-Jaffee

Yeah, this one: [Link: www.ldschurchtemples.com...]

You're welcome. When me and my brother were kids, my father used to tell us it was Disneyland.

Someone once painted "Surrender Dorothy!" on an overpass near the temple. They never should have removed that graffitti.

I miss seeing those words on the train overpass on 495. It always gave me a chuckle during rush hour traffic.

1259 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:49:56am

re: #1232 Pianobuff

You didn't answer my question. You also said in a previous post that it needs to be passed right away. Do you not see a conflict in your own positions between? it must be passed right away / I'll wait and see and decide if I like it then. You do not see a contradiction there?

I think some sort of a bill must pass, we've tried and failed so many times. Perhaps a scaled down bill with some cost cutting in place that could be expanded later.

1260 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:50:01am

re: #1249 Creeping Eruption

re: #1251 MandyManners

No, no and no.

1261 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:50:04am
1262 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:50:13am

re: #1243 MandyManners

And, nails and walls.

That as well!
On the other hand - swinging a hammer is always good exercise!

;-)

1263 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:50:30am

re: #1248 wahabicorridor

Does this Molly person speaking now understand that under ObamaCare she won't have to worry about her house because she won't be getting the drugs in the first place?

In the State of NJ we can not use testimonial crap in our advertising because they recognize it is all bullshit and unsubstantiated. i guess the US Congress doesn't get that?

1264 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:50:30am

re: #1238 VegasRick

I don't think you have the capacitor to understand that.
/

Maybe he could go back to the future and find the plan.

1265 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:50:31am

re: #1242 Honorary Yooper

So one choice will be more choices? Sounds rather Orwellian.

BTW, if Obama is worried about this destroying his presidency, I have this to say:
Fuck you and your fucking presidency and your fucking legacy, motherfucking narcissistic asshole.

So, I should put you down as a "NO" in answer to the question of whether you admire FCBBHO.

1266 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:50:49am

re: #1261 buzzsawmonkey

Gerry Atrics and the Pacemakers will have some issues with that.

Who cares? They are always off beat anyway.

1267 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:50:51am

re: #1209 midwestgak

Pelosi - "If you change jobs or lose your job or have a preexisting condition, you cannot be denied coverage."

Okay, but at what cost? Ninny.

This is quickly getting to the point where it's no longer "insurance". It'll just be a government provided health care system that gets you an aspirin when you need heart surgery.

"Insurance" - Indemnity against catastrophic health care costs
"Government Health Care" - Very expensive, half-assed care for the healthy, paid for by the few who still have jobs.

1268 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:50:57am

re: #1144 Sharmuta

You're starting to make me think you're a shill for ID rather than being confused. ID IS NOT the same thing as theistic evolution. It is not science either. People who accept evolution and God ARE NOT believers in intelligent design.

ID DOES NOT ACCEPT EVOLUTION!

I just now wiki-ed theistic evolution. (it was late at night last night, so I bleary-eyed did not do so)

I never heard of the term before now.

Anyway, I don't understand how this differs from ID necessarily. Please explain in a nutshell?

1269 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:51:13am

re: #1247 buzzsawmonkey

BUZZZ!

1270 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:51:20am

re: #1193 Nevergiveup

Pelosi is talking on FOX News which means she is lying.

pelosi is probably more pissed than o.
she has her thugs in the house and all her threats and strong arm tactic are not working too well.
she needs to be reminded of the stimulus bill that had to be rammed thru or unemployment would go above 8%.
oh. . . . it's 10%, or more, now in many states..

stfu peolosi.

1271 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:51:21am

re: #1256 MandyManners

Here's a hint: AVANTI.

You're trying to "nail" him? I didn't even think you guys were dating!

(I keed, I keed!!!)

1272 pink freud  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:51:34am

re: #1248 wahabicorridor

Does this Molly person speaking now understand that under ObamaCare she won't have to worry about her house because she won't be getting the drugs in the first place?

Cleverly choreographed for maximum emotional impact.

/Critical thinking skills should be checked at the door.

1273 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:51:39am

re: #1256 MandyManners

Here's a hint: AVANTI.

How about this: Just drive large nail into the wall then hang avanti from it by his underwear.

///

1274 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:51:44am

re: #1257 Kosh's Shadow

You can name your price, like the Progressive ads.
Just be warned that the cheaper plans were designed by Dr. Kervorkian and the Soylent Green company.
///

If only Dr. Mengele were alive to see this./

1275 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:51:46am

re: #1260 Sharmuta

re: #1251 MandyManners

No, no and no.

SO . . . .?

1276 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:51:53am

re: #1256 MandyManners

Here's a hint: AVANTI.

LOL. I was wundrin' who you had been arguing with. (too lazy to read the thread.) All is now revealed.

1277 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:51:56am

re: #1259 avanti

I think some sort of a bill must pass, we've tried and failed so many times. Perhaps a scaled down bill with some cost cutting in place that could be expanded later.

Well lets start with COST CUTTING NUMBER 1--TORT REFORM! Oh yeah Obama and most of the congress are lawyers...never mind

1278 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:52:04am

re: #1255 Nevergiveup

Then go play with your cars and sign you wife on

I'll split the difference with you, I do need to play with a car. BBL.

1279 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:52:25am
1280 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:52:28am

re: #1229 Mad Al-Jaffee

Yeah, this one: [Link: www.ldschurchtemples.com...]

You're welcome. When me and my brother were kids, my father used to tell us it was Disneyland.

Someone once painted "Surrender Dorothy!" on an overpass near the temple. They never should have removed that graffitti.

I love that. Thanks.

1281 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:52:30am

re: #1127 KenJen

Careful. Old car ownership may be next.

Cash for clunkers.

1282 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:52:38am

re: #1260 Sharmuta

re: #1251 MandyManners

No, no and no.

I'm gonna' pout.

*stompstompstomp*

1283 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:52:41am

re: #1242 Honorary Yooper

So one choice will be more choices? Sounds rather Orwellian.

BTW, if Obama is worried about this destroying his presidency, I have this to say:
Fuck you and your fucking presidency and your fucking legacy, motherfucking narcissistic asshole.

I think you are being a little soft on the fuckhead but that's just me.
/

1284 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:52:48am

re: #1259 avanti

I think some sort of a bill must pass, we've tried and failed so many times. Perhaps a scaled down bill with some cost cutting in place that could be expanded later.

Why? If it's been tried and failed so many times in the past, shouldn't that tell you something about this kind of bill?

1285 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:52:59am

re: #1258 MrSilverDragon

I miss seeing those words on the train overpass on 495. It always gave me a chuckle during rush hour traffic.

Another great one was just south of Baltimore. Someone added "hon" to the "Welcome to Baltimore" sign so it read "Welcome to Baltimore, hon."

1286 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:53:06am

re: #1270 nyc redneck

pelosi is probably more pissed than o.
she has her thugs in the house and all her threats and strong arm tactic are not working too well.
she needs to be reminded of the stimulus bill that had to be rammed thru or unemployment would go above 8%.
oh. . . . it's 10%, or more, now in many states..

stfu peolosi.

reps are getting nervous about their jobs...Pelosi has lost some of her intimidation

1287 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:53:07am

re: #1207 yma o hyd

hey {yma},
agree.

1288 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:53:14am
1289 KansasMom  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:53:19am

re: #1190 Flyers1974

I wonder how the Mormons got into geneology. Seems kind of random, unless it is related to the religion.

It's related to the religion. Families are connected to each other, even after death. So they look up ancestors.

1290 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:53:23am

re: #1262 yma o hyd

That as well!
On the other hand - swinging a hammer is always good exercise!

;-)

An exercise in frustration in this case.

1291 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:53:40am

re: #1249 Creeping Eruption

McCarthy?

Ringo?

1292 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:53:42am

re: #1266 Creeping Eruption

Who cares? They are always off beat anyway.

My heart's just not that into punning today... /oh no I didn't.

1293 avanti  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:53:42am

re: #1277 Nevergiveup

I agree with you on tort reform BTW. Off to the garage I go now.

1294 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:53:43am

re: #1261 buzzsawmonkey

Gerry Atrics and the Pacemakers will have some issues with that.

Shocking.

1295 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:53:52am

re: #1268 Daria Emmons

I just now wiki-ed theistic evolution. (it was late at night last night, so I bleary-eyed did not do so)

I never heard of the term before now.

Anyway, I don't understand how this differs from ID necessarily. Please explain in a nutshell?

Theistic evolution accepts evolution. ID does not accept evolution, despite what they say. They only accept "micro-evolution" and deny natural explanations by using such debunked gimmicks as "irreducible complexity". There is no science behind ID, but theistic evolution most certainly relies on real science.

1296 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:54:07am

re: #1263 Nevergiveup

In the State of NJ we can not use testimonial crap in our advertising because they recognize it is all bullshit and unsubstantiated. i guess the US Congress doesn't get that?

And besides that, there are TONS of lizards who are experienced dealing with cancer in our families - no way we're replacing her anecdotal claims with what too many of us are already well versed in.

1297 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:54:16am

re: #1259 avanti

I think some sort of a bill must pass, we've tried and failed so many times. Perhaps a scaled down bill with some cost cutting in place that could be expanded later.

"Some sort of a bill" could be a crappy bill. Why would it be an imperative to pass a crappy bill. And in your previous posts you've said that it must be passed right away, even though you say that no-one knows what's in it and right now they are still in the idea phase. Wouldn't the sensible position be to take the right amount of time to get it right rather than to just pass it right away?

1298 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:54:28am

re: #1236 Sharmuta

Sharmuta quote-of-the-day time. Who said this:

When and how to use fear is a political art.

-?

Stalin?

1299 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:54:38am

re: #1270 nyc redneck

pelosi is probably more pissed than o.
she has her thugs in the house and all her threats and strong arm tactic are not working too well.
she needs to be reminded of the stimulus bill that had to be rammed thru or unemployment would go above 8%.
oh. . . . it's 10%, or more, now in many states..

stfu peolosi.


"We won..."

1300 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:54:48am

re: #1259 avanti

I think some sort of a bill must pass

Why?

1301 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:54:53am

re: #1236 Sharmuta

Sharmuta quote-of-the-day time. Who said this:

When and how to use fear is a political art.

-?

David Horowitz?

1302 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:54:53am

re: #1282 MandyManners

I had a feeling people would think it was a communist.

When and how to use fear is a political art.

Who said it?

1303 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:54:59am

re: #1273 Dark_Falcon

How about this: Just drive large nail into the wall then hang avanti from it by his underwear.

///

I ain't touching his knickers.

1304 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:55:01am

re: #1298 Honorary Yooper

No

1305 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:55:09am

re: #1270 nyc redneck

pelosi is probably more pissed than o.
she has her thugs in the house and all her threats and strong arm tactic are not working too well.
she needs to be reminded of the stimulus bill that had to be rammed thru or unemployment would go above 8%.
oh. . . . it's 10%, or more, now in many states..

stfu peolosi.

I read it's over 10% in 16 states. Just got back from Florida and the Ft. Meyers area is in dire straits. They had a graph in their paper, and if you plotted the unemployment, it started up about 6 months after the Democrats grabbed the Congress. Coincidence?

1306 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:55:09am

re: #1289 KansasMom

It's related to the religion. Families are connected to each other, even after death. So they look up ancestors.

Sounds vaguely Chinese.

/just sayin.

1307 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:55:14am

re: #1236 Sharmuta

Sharmuta quote-of-the-day time. Who said this:

When and how to use fear is a political art.

-?

LBJ?

1308 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:55:20am

re: #1301 scottishbuzzsaw

David Horowitz?

Very good. +1

1309 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:55:25am

re: #1302 Sharmuta

Google turning up nothing...

1310 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:55:38am
1311 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:55:57am

re: #1289 KansasMom

It's related to the religion. Families are connected to each other, even after death. So they look up ancestors.

I learned that on "Big Love". They believe that the family you seal on earth will be sealed in heaven. Thus, the more the merrier.
:-)

1312 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:56:06am

re: #1297 Pianobuff

"Some sort of a bill" could be a crappy bill. Why would it be an imperative to pass a crappy bill. And in your previous posts you've said that it must be passed right away, even though you say that no-one knows what's in it and right now they are still in the idea phase. Wouldn't the sensible position be to take the right amount of time to get it right rather than to just pass it right away?

avanti has a distinct pattern...

1313 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:56:06am

re: #1271 Mad Al-Jaffee

You're trying to "nail" him? I didn't even think you guys were dating!

(I keed, I keed!!!)

*putting clue-by-four down*

1314 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:56:09am

re: #1267 eschew_obfuscation

This is quickly getting to the point where it's no longer "insurance". It'll just be a government provided health care system that gets you an aspirin when you need heart surgery.

"Insurance" - Indemnity against catastrophic health care costs
"Government Health Care" - Very expensive, half-assed care for the healthy, paid for by the few who still have jobs.

Yeah - and on paper youa re entitled to everything ... but in real life, there are (or will be, in the USA) waiting lists, so when your turn finally arrives, chances are you're already dead.
And if you're old, but aren't dead yet, then you have the choice between death by hospital-acquired infections, death through institutionalised non-care for the elderly, or, as its being pushed here in the UK by the moonbats, you can opt for 'assisted suicide' ...

1315 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:56:37am

re: #1279 buzzsawmonkey

But they would be appalled at the lack of Mersey in Obamacare.

They look for Mersey in Obamacare only to get the Styx.

1316 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:56:54am

re: #1270 nyc redneck

pelosi is probably more pissed than o.
she has her thugs in the house and all her threats and strong arm tactic are not working too well.
she needs to be reminded of the stimulus bill that had to be rammed thru or unemployment would go above 8%.
oh. . . . it's 10%, or more, now in many states..

stfu peolosi.

Apparently a lot of Dems are pissed at Pelosi. Rangel has been quoted as saying nobody wants to tell her to slow down and they DEFINITELY don't want to be the ones to tell O to slow down.

1317 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:56:55am

re: #1268 Daria Emmons

I just now wiki-ed theistic evolution. (it was late at night last night, so I bleary-eyed did not do so)

I never heard of the term before now.

Anyway, I don't understand how this differs from ID necessarily. Please explain in a nutshell?

ID - intervention by a Supreme Being is required to fill in [so-called] "gaps" in evolution.
Theistic evolution - a Supreme Being started the process of evolution and let it proceed with or without some guidance that occurs completely within what is allowed by science. There is no conflict with scientific evidence.
(e.g. quantum mechanics has inherent randomness. A supreme being could select wihch of the "random" results occur)

1318 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:56:57am

re: #1305 kansas

... it started up about 6 months after the Democrats grabbed the Congress. Coincidence?

Is that when the smart money started to leave town?

1319 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:56:58am

Too slow to read, let alone respond. bbiab

1320 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:57:14am

re: #1229 Mad Al-Jaffee

Nice, thanks for that.

1321 Kragar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:57:15am

re: #1302 Sharmuta

I had a feeling people would think it was a communist.

When and how to use fear is a political art.

Who said it?

Machiavelli

1322 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:57:28am

re: #1311 redstateredneck

I learned that on "Big Love". They believe that the family you seal on earth will be sealed in heaven. Thus, the more the merrier.
:-)

They also have a weird practice of 'baptising' or 'converting' people who have already died and were never LDS, so that after death they can become members of the church and thus be 'saved'.

1323 CommonCents  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:57:39am

re: #1236 Sharmuta

Sharmuta quote-of-the-day time. Who said this:

When and how to use fear is a political art.

-?

Well, you did obviously. It's right there in your post. Sheesh.
/

1324 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:57:57am

re: #1295 Sharmuta

Theistic evolution accepts evolution. ID does not accept evolution, despite what they say. They only accept "micro-evolution" and deny natural explanations by using such debunked gimmicks as "irreducible complexity". There is no science behind ID, but theistic evolution most certainly relies on real science.

Does theistic evolution believe mankind is seperate or distinct from animals in some way?

1325 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:58:00am

"When and how to use fear is a political art."

-David Horowitz, The Art of Political War

1326 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:58:37am

re: #1322 iceweasel

They also have a weird practice of 'baptising' or 'converting' people who have already died and were never LDS, so that after death they can become members of the church and thus be 'saved'.

Obambi's mama is one.

1327 JustMyView  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:58:49am

re: #1227 MandyManners

For real? That should send the Yuppies to the mats.

No, not for real. There are no such provisions.

1328 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:58:50am

re: #1292 lawhawk

My heart's just not that into punning today... /oh no I didn't.

Too bad, perhaps you aorta go for a little walk to try to get your head in the game.

1329 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:58:52am

re: #1322 iceweasel

They also have a weird practice of 'baptising' or 'converting' people who have already died and were never LDS, so that after death they can become members of the church and thus be 'saved'.

the Ultimate Second Chance

1330 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:58:54am

re: #1259 avanti

I think some sort of a bill must pass, we've tried and failed so many times. Perhaps a scaled down bill with some cost cutting in place that could be expanded later.

Why must a bill pass? Why must it pass now? Why must Obama completely rejigger all of health care, when the government can't even begin to fix the mess that is Medicare, Medicaid, or even Bush's prescription drug entitlement? All cost far more than their originators ever envisioned. They were off by several orders of magnitude, and this bill seeks to expand the Medicare mess to all Americans? Sorry, but that's not a fix that will improve health care. It will make it more expensive to all Americans in the form of higher taxes and fees, and lower quality of care.

Fix the existing entitlements before starting any new ones.

1331 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:59:00am

re: #1316 wahabicorridor

Apparently a lot of Dems are pissed at Pelosi. Rangel has been quoted as saying nobody wants to tell her to slow down and they DEFINITELY don't want to be the ones to tell O to slow down.

Lots of people hate Pelosi. I'm on the left and loathe her and so do many on the left; many Democrats loathe her (btw, I am not a Democrat).

1332 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:59:01am

re: #1322 iceweasel

They also have a weird practice of 'baptising' or 'converting' people who have already died and were never LDS, so that after death they can become members of the church and thus be 'saved'.

Does this involve making a contribution to the church?

1333 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:59:19am

re: #1322 iceweasel

They also have a weird practice of 'baptising' or 'converting' people who have already died and were never LDS, so that after death they can become members of the church and thus be 'saved'.

Have you read the Mormon Murders?

1334 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 8:59:49am

I have never used the F-bomb as much as I have this year.

1335 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:00:03am

re: #1317 Kosh's Shadow

ID - intervention by a Supreme Being is required to fill in [so-called] "gaps" in evolution.
Theistic evolution - a Supreme Being started the process of evolution and let it proceed with or without some guidance that occurs completely within what is allowed by science. There is no conflict with scientific evidence.
(e.g. quantum mechanics has inherent randomness. A supreme being could select wihch of the "random" results occur)

I would think that creating one planet in a rather large vicinity that supports randomly-generated life forms that could specifically believe in a God that created it would be a bit too random for guidance.

1336 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:00:48am

re: #1325 Sharmuta

"When and how to use fear is a political art."

-David Horowitz, The Art of Political War

Is that a book I ought to read?

(Not that I haven't again stacks of unread books sitting here, glaring at me ...)

1337 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:00:50am

re: #1334 SasquatchOnSteroids

How many can you use in 90 seconds?

Youtube Video
1338 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:01:04am
1339 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:01:08am

re: #1330 lawhawk

Why must a bill pass? Why must it pass now? Why must Obama completely rejigger all of health care, when the government can't even begin to fix the mess that is Medicare, Medicaid, or even Bush's prescription drug entitlement? All cost far more than their originators ever envisioned. They were off by several orders of magnitude, and this bill seeks to expand the Medicare mess to all Americans? Sorry, but that's not a fix that will improve health care. It will make it more expensive to all Americans in the form of higher taxes and fees, and lower quality of care.

Fix the existing entitlements before starting any new ones.

To logical I guess?

1340 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:01:09am

re: #1332 redstateredneck

Does this involve making a contribution to the church?

No; just members of LDS having a ceremony to 'convert' people after they die. AFAIK, they do it to all kinds of famous people after death too, all sorts of people who have no connection whatsoever to the religion.

1341 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:01:24am

Sockpuppet alert? Avanti off/JMV on within seconds?

1342 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:01:44am

re: #1340 iceweasel

No; just members of LDS having a ceremony to 'convert' people after they die. AFAIK, they do it to all kinds of famous people after death too, all sorts of people who have no connection whatsoever to the religion.

Hmmm, I did not know that.

1343 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:02:04am

re: #1330 lawhawk

Why must a bill pass? Why must it pass now? Why must Obama completely rejigger all of health care, when the government can't even begin to fix the mess that is Medicare, Medicaid, or even Bush's prescription drug entitlement? All cost far more than their originators ever envisioned. They were off by several orders of magnitude, and this bill seeks to expand the Medicare mess to all Americans? Sorry, but that's not a fix that will improve health care. It will make it more expensive to all Americans in the form of higher taxes and fees, and lower quality of care.

Fix the existing entitlements before starting any new ones.

Quite Concur.

1344 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:02:14am

re: #1333 Flyers1974

Have you read the Mormon Murders?

No! Should I? What is it about?

I read the Krakauer book "Under the Banner of Heaven" a while ago, and a few people here recommended some other books that sounded interesting.

1345 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:02:20am

o is like an aggressive used car salesman. pushing the now or never, gotta get 'er done today, no you can't come back tomorrow or even this afternoon scare tactic.

i never deal w/ people like this. they are never truthful or trustworthy.
o is no exception to this rule.

1346 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:02:25am

re: #1334 SasquatchOnSteroids

I have never used the F-bomb as much as I have this year.

Well to be honest it has always been in my repertoire. I've never been accused of being polite.

1347 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:02:33am

re: #1336 yma o hyd

Is that a book I ought to read?

(Not that I haven't again stacks of unread books sitting here, glaring at me ...)

No. I wouldn't recommend it. Horowitz is off in his analysis, imo. I would have you read A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell instead. Then you would be prepared to understand where Horowitz is going wrong.

1348 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:02:44am

re: #1328 Creeping Eruption

Are you guys making stupid heart puns? Why don't you give it arrest ...

1349 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:02:45am

re: #1342 redstateredneck

Hmmm, I did not know that.

I'll try to find a link.

1350 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:02:57am

re: #1331 iceweasel

Lots of people hate Pelosi. I'm on the left and loathe her and so do many on the left; many Democrats loathe her (btw, I am not a Democrat).

I can't remember the words verbatim, perhaps you do. She was being interviewed and the question was about something - oh, Facbook, maybe. And she said 'I'm the Speaker of the House. I don't do popular culture'.

jeebus I wanted to punch her lights out.

1351 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:03:10am

re: #1259 avanti

I think some sort of a bill must pass, we've tried and failed so many times. Perhaps a scaled down bill with some cost cutting in place that could be expanded later.

Four things right now:

1. Start with tort reform. You dream up some bullshit lawsuit and go to some hack lawyer, you pay. No contingencies or percentages. Hourly rate only could be recovered if you win.

2. Make it illegal to charge a cash patient 10 grand for what an insurance company negotiates down to 2 grand. Everybody pays the same.

3. Develop a plan to assist poor people with medical care. It could be run by the States and could be called something like "Medicaid". Oh wait.

4. Unless you are a citizen, you are not entitled to health care.

1352 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:03:13am

re: #1236 Sharmuta

Sharmuta quote-of-the-day time. Who said this:

When and how to use fear is a political art.

-?

American senator Hiram Johnson in 1918???

1353 LGoPs  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:03:15am

re: #1259 avanti

I think some sort of a bill must pass, we've tried and failed so many times. Perhaps a scaled down bill with some cost cutting in place that could be expanded later.

Fine. If you're that dead set on passing a bill, regardless of what it is, let's pass a duck bill. Then we can all say we passed a bill and get on with the more serious business of assessing the problem and coming up with a less ruinous way of fixing it.
Happy now?

1354 dwells38  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:03:25am

re: #1317 Kosh's Shadow

ID - intervention by a Supreme Being is required to fill in [so-called] "gaps" in evolution.
Theistic evolution - a Supreme Being started the process of evolution and let it proceed with or without some guidance that occurs completely within what is allowed by science. There is no conflict with scientific evidence.
(e.g. quantum mechanics has inherent randomness. A supreme being could select wihch of the "random" results occur)

Where's any evidence of a supreme being? Why graft that onto natural evolution before there's any evidence for it other than everyone you know imagines there must be a god and goes and says so on Sundays or Saturdays or 5 times a day?

1355 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:03:36am
1356 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:03:42am

re: #1346 Nevergiveup

Well to be honest it has always been in my repertoire. I've never been accused of being polite.

I'd use it rarely.
Not anymore.
Change.

1357 Kragar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:03:49am

Dems Start To Push Back Hard To Prevent A 'Waterloo'

A telling episode recounted by Senate Finance ranking member Charles Grassley reveals the Obama administration might be more worried than they are letting on that a Republican senator's comparison of the healthcare overhaul to Waterloo might be dangerously close to the truth.

Grassley said he spoke with a Democratic House member last week who shared Obama's bleak reaction during a private meeting to reports that some factions of House Democrats were lining up to stall or even take down the overhaul unless leaders made major changes.

"Let's just lay everything on the table," Grassley said. "A Democrat congressman last week told me after a conversation with the president that the president had trouble in the House of Representatives, and it wasn't going to pass if there weren't some changes made ... and the president says, 'You're going to destroy my presidency.' "

The White House did not respond to requests for comment

1358 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:03:58am

dang this thread is flying, help Mr. Charles

1359 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:04:27am

re: #1350 wahabicorridor

I can't remember the words verbatim, perhaps you do. She was being interviewed and the question was about something - oh, Facbook, maybe. And she said 'I'm the Speaker of the House. I don't do popular culture'.

jeebus I wanted to punch her lights out.

Ugh, I don't remember that but it doesn't surprise me. I really can't stand her.

1360 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:04:38am

re: #1324 Daria Emmons

Does theistic evolution believe mankind is seperate or distinct from animals in some way?

I claim to be one of those who hold to "theistic evolution". For me the fundamental question is -are we intentional or just biological accidents? I find struggling with that fascinating.

BTW - no less an evangelical thinker than Jonathan Edwards thought animals other than humans are bound for heaven.

1361 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:04:56am

re: #1336 yma o hyd

Is that a book I ought to read?

(Not that I haven't again stacks of unread books sitting here, glaring at me ...)

Additionally- Horowitz is funding robert spencer and other euro-fascists interests. I really can't recommend him with connections like that.

1362 LGoPs  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:05:01am

re: #1328 Creeping Eruption

Too bad, perhaps you aorta go for a little walk to try to get your head in the game.

Do not pun in vein...

1363 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:05:08am

re: #1236 Sharmuta

Sharmuta quote-of-the-day time. Who said this:

When and how to use fear is a political art.

-?

O.K. I'll bite. Sun Tzu?

1364 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:05:20am

re: #1093 Dark_Falcon

It's not a case of equal sources, avanti. John Kerry has a severe problem with the truth. Even anonymous sources have more credibility than he does.

And has had that problem since at least 1968.

1365 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:05:28am

re: #1348 turn

Are you guys making stupid heart puns? Why don't you give it arrest ...

I wish there was a way to by-pass these heart puns.

1366 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:05:34am

re: #1330 lawhawk

Indeed - why must this Bill pass right now?

The Beveridge Report, on which the NHS was based, was published in 1942.
The NHS was incorporated in 1948.

There were debates not just in Cabinet or Parliament, but across the whole British Isles, for years, in spite of WWII.

It was not passed 'right now, or else ...'

1367 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:05:48am

re: #1335 laZardo

I would think that creating one planet in a rather large vicinity that supports randomly-generated life forms that could specifically believe in a God that created it would be a bit too random for guidance.

Then you're limiting G-d.
If He could create the entire universe, with all the physical laws that allow life, why can't He guide the process?

1368 KansasMom  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:06:33am

re: #1322 iceweasel

They also have a weird practice of 'baptising' or 'converting' people who have already died and were never LDS, so that after death they can become members of the church and thus be 'saved'.

It doesn't change the church/religions records the person accumulated while they were alive. If you don't believe in the Mormon concept of heaven, then does it matter?
The positive of it is they have accumulated fantastic geneological libraries and basically spear-headed geneology as a hobby. If it weren't for Mormon libraries, I would know a lot less about my family history.

1369 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:06:37am

re: #1341 VegasRick

Sockpuppet alert? Avanti off/JMV on within seconds?

I noticed that as well!

Interesting ...

1370 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:06:39am

re: #1351 kansas

Four things right now:

1. Start with tort reform. You dream up some bullshit lawsuit and go to some hack lawyer, you pay. No contingencies or percentages. Hourly rate only could be recovered if you win.

2. Make it illegal to charge a cash patient 10 grand for what an insurance company negotiates down to 2 grand. Everybody pays the same.

3. Develop a plan to assist poor people with medical care. It could be run by the States and could be called something like "Medicaid". Oh wait.

4. Unless you are a citizen, you are not entitled to health care.

also cut taxes or give tax credits so people can buy their own insurance.

1371 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:06:40am

re: #1362 LGoPs

Do not pun in vein...

Have a heart!

1372 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:07:07am

re: #1361 Sharmuta

Additionally- Horowitz is funding robert spencer and other euro-fascists interests. I really can't recommend him with connections like that.

So we're crapping on David Horowitz now?

1373 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:07:10am

re: #1362 LGoPs

Do not pun in vein...

Why, Aorta...
Right to the Moon !

1374 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:07:13am

re: #1156 laZardo

Religion generally does not accept evolution. From what I've learned, mankind came up with the concept of religion because evolution created an organism complex enough to do so.

The Catholic church, many Protestant churches, and most branches of Judaism accept evolution. I have no reason think that the Buddhists, the Sikhs, or the Hindus are opposed. I don't know about Islam--I know there are those who ally with Christian anti-evolutionists, but I have no reason to believe they are normative.What's 'generally'?

1375 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:07:25am

re: #1347 Sharmuta

No. I wouldn't recommend it. Horowitz is off in his analysis, imo. I would have you read A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell instead. Then you would be prepared to understand where Horowitz is going wrong.

Thanks!

1376 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:07:31am

re: #1344 iceweasel

No! Should I? What is it about?

I read the Krakauer book "Under the Banner of Heaven" a while ago, and a few people here recommended some other books that sounded interesting.

Excellent book. Nonfiction. I had no clue - in the early 1980's Salt Lake City was known (briefly) as the Beirut of America or something to that effect. Long story short: guy trades in rare documents. Gets into borrowing from peter to pay paul, that kind of thing. Mormon Church buys doc's from him knowing they may be fake, but if not fake, the doc's will be bad for the religion. Car bombs going off, people getting murdered. Insane.

1377 aggieann  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:07:34am

re: #1100 wahabicorridor

uh oh. I just thought of something.

A lot of docs currently refuse medicare patients. The full cost of the care is not reimbursed to them and the paperwork is a bitch.

Under ObamaCare will that still be allowed? 'Cuz if they cut those benefits even more and add another layer of bureaucracy a lot more docs will want to opt out.

And fewer bright young people will choose to enter medicine.

1378 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:07:51am

re: #1355 busmen

re: #1348 turn


Or just bypass it altogether.

I know if we keep on the them to stop they mitral it.

1379 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:07:53am
1380 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:07:57am

re: #1361 Sharmuta

Additionally- Horowitz is funding robert spencer and other euro-fascists interests. I really can't recommend him with connections like that.

Please tell me you're joking

1381 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:08:15am

re: #1351 kansas

Four things right now:

1. Start with tort reform. You dream up some bullshit lawsuit and go to some hack lawyer, you pay. No contingencies or percentages. Hourly rate only could be recovered if you win.

2. Make it illegal to charge a cash patient 10 grand for what an insurance company negotiates down to 2 grand. Everybody pays the same.

3. Develop a plan to assist poor people with medical care. It could be run by the States and could be called something like "Medicaid". Oh wait.

4. Unless you are a citizen, you are not entitled to health care.

Well I think #2 is problematic. Some of those "negotiated" fees are bogus and not representative of real costs.

1382 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:08:16am

re: #1330 lawhawk

Why must a bill pass? Why must it pass now?

Clearly, you have problems with your political-class logic if you don't understand that, dummy. You're probably one of these idiots who also can't comprehend how it can be simultaneously true that 1) evil CARBON is on the verge of killing the entire planet, and this is absolutely our last chance to avert civilization-destroying global disaster, but 2) it's perfecly okay to exempt China and India from carbon restrictions, in order to give them a chance to "catch up".

You're just not smart enough to understand these sophisticated matters, obviously.

1383 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:08:23am

re: #1354 dwells38

Where's any evidence of a supreme being? Why graft that onto natural evolution before there's any evidence for it other than everyone you know imagines there must be a god and goes and says so on Sundays or Saturdays or 5 times a day?

Well, Mark Twain has said the existence of the Jewish people is proof of G-d. No other people have survived exile and maintained their identity.

What I'm trying to say is that science doesn't contradict (some interpretations of) religion, and vice-versa.
You don't have to be an atheist to be a scientist.

1384 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:08:27am

re: #1370 nyc redneck

also cut taxes or give tax credits so people can buy their own insurance.

Actually I think insurance is part of the problem. Anytime someone else pays and the consumer is separated from the costs, the costs always go up.

1385 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:08:27am

re: #1362 LGoPs

Do not pun in vein...

Angina - t?

1386 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:08:31am

re: #1378 turn

wow, how did that happen?

1387 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:09:03am

re: #1360 unreconstructed rebel

I claim to be one of those who hold to "theistic evolution". For me the fundamental question is -are we intentional or just biological accidents? I find struggling with that fascinating.

BTW - no less an evangelical thinker than Jonathan Edwards thought animals other than humans are bound for heaven.

Good comment.

My underlying point is that evolution appears to propose humanity is an accident. To the extent that it does, I see a conflict with religion.

I believe - now that I skimmed over the broad outline of what theistic evolution is - the people I spoke to believed in theistic evolution rather than ID.

However, if humanity is deigned not an accident, I wonder ultimately how that comports with scientific understanding of evolution.

1388 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:09:06am

I'm gonna go stick a Smart One in the microwave. If It's true to it's name, you'll be seeing some fabulous posts from me after lunch.re: #1364 Son of the Black Dog

And has had that problem since at least 1968.

What? It's seared, seared onto his memory!

1389 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:09:18am

re: #1384 kansas

Actually I think insurance is part of the problem. Anytime someone else pays and the consumer is separated from the costs, the costs always go up.

Very good point

1390 rightside  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:09:22am

"o" Drinking game phrases.

- the economy we inherited is worse than we thought.

- let me be clear

- we must act now, we cannot wait

- if you like it, you can keep your own plan

- there are those who do not want health care reform

- decisions will have to be made

- the money we will save

feel free to add

1391 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:09:25am

re: #1381 Nevergiveup

Well I think #2 is problematic. Some of those "negotiated" fees are bogus and not representative of real costs.

I think #4 is problematic because my sister in law is not a citizen, but she is a resident. A resident who has been married to an American for almost 20 years, a homeowner, state employee and taxpayer.

1392 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:09:29am

re: #1381 Nevergiveup

Well I think #2 is problematic. Some of those "negotiated" fees are bogus and not representative of real costs.

Exactly.

1393 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:09:32am
1394 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:09:54am

re: #1372 kansas

What's this "we" stuff? I'm more than entitled to my opinion of him and anyone else. He's most certainly connected to euro-fascists interests- it's a fact. And it certainly does make me think less of him. What other people think is up to them.

1395 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:10:03am

re: #1367 Kosh's Shadow

Then you're limiting G-d.
If He could create the entire universe, with all the physical laws that allow life, why can't He guide the process?

If the process is guided, then how does that gel with the theory of evolution?

1396 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:10:13am

re: #1361 Sharmuta

Additionally- Horowitz is funding robert spencer and other euro-fascists interests. I really can't recommend him with connections like that.

Yep - I knew that.
I've not visited that site for over a year now. Even before spencer was outed I had severely aching guts reading some of the stuff there.

1397 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:10:19am

re: #1380 wahabicorridor

Please tell me you're joking

It's true.

1398 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:10:26am

How many creation stories are in Genesis?

Hint: One is the wrong answer.


Which begs the quesion - which one is correct?

Someday the ID crowd are going to have to come to grips with that.

1399 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:10:28am

re: #1377 aggieann

And fewer bright young people will choose to enter medicine.

A few days ago one of the blogs had a piece on eligibilty reqs for grants for med school.

'disadvanted and underrepresented minorities'

Big surprise there, yes?

1400 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:10:42am

Mormons, and Baptism for the Dead:

Baptism for the dead, vicarious baptism or proxy baptism is the religious practice of baptizing a living person on behalf of an individual who is dead; the living person is acting as the deceased person's proxy. So it is with this practice, an individual is baptized to give those beyond the grave the opportunity of baptism by proxy. It has been practiced since 1840 in the Latter Day Saint movement. The practice continues in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where it is also called temple baptism because it is performed only in dedicated temples. Baptism for the dead is also practiced by several other current groups in the Latter Day Saint movement.

Among the people they have 'baptised' after death: Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank.

1401 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:11:17am

re: #1355 buzzsawmonkey

Or just bypass it altogether.

That comment made my blood thinner.

1402 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:11:26am

re: #1384 kansas

Actually I think insurance is part of the problem. Anytime someone else pays and the consumer is separated from the costs, the costs always go up.

But without insurance, very, very few would be able to pay for much care beyond the routine. Really, how many can afford thousands for an operation and hundreds a day in hospital stays? The result will be a lack of care for everyone except the wealthy.

1403 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:11:29am

re: #1383 Kosh's Shadow

Well, Mark Twain has said the existence of the Jewish people is proof of G-d.

Well... the existence of Bar Rafaeli, anyway.

1404 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:11:49am

re: #1384 kansas

Actually I think insurance is part of the problem. Anytime someone else pays and the consumer is separated from the costs, the costs always go up.

that's true. but i would take tax cuts and my own insurance any day over o's plan.

1405 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:12:01am

re: #1365 KenJen

re: #1348 turn


I wish there was a way to by-pass these heart puns.

You must admit though, there is a real artery to mastering these puns.

1406 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:12:29am

re: #1395 Daria Emmons

If the process is guided, then how does that gel with the theory of evolution?

It is guided at the quantum mechanical random event level, not in a way that overrides natural selection.

1407 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:12:30am

re: #1402 Kosh's Shadow

But without insurance, very, very few would be able to pay for much care beyond the routine. Really, how many can afford thousands for an operation and hundreds a day in hospital stays? The result will be a lack of care for everyone except the wealthy.

I think he meant that the consumer should be paying directly for their own insurance not a third party like Microsoft/Dell/ or GM?

1408 Kragar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:12:38am

re: #1390 rightside

"o" Drinking game phrases.

- the economy we inherited is worse than we thought.

- let me be clear

- we must act now, we cannot wait

- if you like it, you can keep your own plan

- there are those who do not want health care reform

- decisions will have to be made

- the money we will save

feel free to add

jobs created or saved

1409 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:12:39am

re: #1382 Occasional Reader

Surely, you are a wise and learned man. And what's the speed of an unladen swallow? /

1410 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:12:45am

re: #1119 KenJen

Climate change. Global warming's not convenient right now. High of 72 degrees in Louisville today.

Record low temp in Nashville yesterday. (Also in front page links.)

[Link: www.whnt.com...]

1411 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:12:47am

re: #1361 Sharmuta

Additionally- Horowitz is funding robert spencer and other euro-fascists interests. I really can't recommend him with connections like that.

My biggest problem with Spencer is when he supported Pam Gellar's libelling of Rabbi Avi Weiss. I found that beyond contempt. He has a wink-wink-nudge-nudge distance from VB and other such groups, but he openly supported the smear of a fine human being. That was just wrong.

1412 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:13:38am

re: #1398 unreconstructed rebel

How many creation stories are in Genesis?


Which begs the quesion - which one is correct?

Someday the ID crowd are going to have to come to grips with that.

And Kabbalists have their own interpretation that sounds much more like the scientific theory. Including a 15.5 billion year old universe. Not exactly the 13.5 billion of current scientific evidence, but a lot closer than 6 days.

1413 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:13:40am

Greetings from the American Airlines Admirals Club in Santo Domingo. This computer is acting kind of hinky, or the thread is awful durn slow.

1414 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:13:44am

re: #1409 lawhawk

African or European?

1415 aggieann  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:13:49am

re: #1328 Creeping Eruption

Too bad, perhaps you aorta go for a little walk to try to get your head in the game.

Ventricling puns through a thread, he artery not be quite so vein.

1416 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:13:51am

re: #1409 lawhawk

Surely, you are a wise and learned man. And what's the speed of an unladen swallow? /

African or European?

1417 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:14:03am

re: #1170 laZardo

That would be mainly because "the Pope [or respective religious leader thereof] said so," wouldn't it?

And because their followers accept their religious judgement, by and large.

1418 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:14:06am

re: #1413 Occasional Reader

Greetings from the American Airlines Admirals Club in Santo Domingo. This computer is acting kind of hinky, or the thread is awful durn slow.

Work or play?

1419 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:14:14am

re: #1405 turn

You must admit though, there is a real artery to mastering these puns.

They really pump you up.

1420 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:14:28am

re: #1407 Nevergiveup

I think he meant that the consumer should be paying directly for their own insurance not a third party like Microsoft/Dell/ or GM?

I got the impression he was talking about paying for care directly, because that would have much more effect in controlling costs.

Need to go get lunch! can't keep up with this thread.

1421 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:14:49am

re: #1412 Kosh's Shadow

And Kabbalists have their own interpretation that sounds much more like the scientific theory. Including a 15.5 billion year old universe. Not exactly the 13.5 billion of current scientific evidence, but a lot closer than 6 days.

Please read The Lonely Man of Faith, but Rabbi Joseph Solvetchik.

He deals with exactly that topic and finds the various stories of creation actually compliment each other.

1422 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:14:50am

re: #1415 aggieann

Ventricling puns through a thread, he artery not be quite so vein.

I would grade these puns A, E or D.

1423 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:14:50am

re: #1409 lawhawk

Surely, you are a wise and learned man. And what's the speed of an unladen swallow? /

I'm a wise, Latina woman-ogling man, to be precise. But stop calling me "Shirley".

1424 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:15:01am

re: #1415 aggieann

Ventricling puns through a thread, he artery not be quite so vein.

These heart puns are taking on arrhythmia of their own.

1425 aggieann  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:15:04am

re: #918 FrogMarch

So it IS about Barack.

'You're going to destroy my presidency.'

Yes, we can.

1426 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:15:25am

re: #1401 midwestgak

That comment made my blood thinner.

That happens to me a clot.

1427 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:15:28am

re: #1400 iceweasel

The Mormon Murders, link to the book. [Link: www.librarything.com...]

1428 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:15:34am

re: #1387 Daria Emmons

Good comment.

My underlying point is that evolution appears to propose humanity is an accident. To the extent that it does, I see a conflict with religion.

I believe - now that I skimmed over the broad outline of what theistic evolution is - the people I spoke to believed in theistic evolution rather than ID.

However, if humanity is deigned not an accident, I wonder ultimately how that comports with scientific understanding of evolution.

Keep in mind that science does not understand evolution perfectly yet. While it may be correct as far as the understanding goes, I don't believe anything in it precludes design. I don't believe it even addresses the concept of design (could be wrong on this one).

1429 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:15:56am

re: #1413 Occasional Reader

Greetings from the American Airlines Admirals Club in Santo Domingo. This computer is acting kind of hinky, or the thread is awful durn slow.

Ever read the Hamlet Warning? Takes place in Santa Domingo. Always wanted to go there.

1430 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:16:25am

re: #1418 Nevergiveup

Work or play?

Mostly work.

1431 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:16:57am

re: #1390 rightside

"o" Drinking game phrases.

- the economy we inherited is worse than we thought.

- let me be clear

- we must act now, we cannot wait

- if you like it, you can keep your own plan

- there are those who do not want health care reform

- decisions will have to be made

- the money we will save

feel free to add

My drinking game is significantly more simple.

Obama opens his mouth: Drink.

Wait, I guess it isn't really a game anymore... more along the lines of keeping a semblance of sanity.

1432 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:17:02am

re: #1411 Daria Emmons

My biggest problem with Spencer is when he supported Pam Gellar's libelling of Rabbi Avi Weiss. I found that beyond contempt. He has a wink-wink-nudge-nudge distance from VB and other such groups, but he openly supported the smear of a fine human being. That was just wrong.

WHAT did the bitch say about him? (I disagree with him on the Pollard issue, but he seems like a fine man to me)

1433 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:17:20am

re: #1428 eschew_obfuscation

Keep in mind that science does not understand evolution perfectly yet. While it may be correct as far as the understanding goes, I don't believe anything in it precludes design. I don't believe it even addresses the concept of design (could be wrong on this one).

Science is never perfect and never will be. We never will have a perfect understanding of the universe, and I think the striving for knowledge is what keeps us human.

What is important is whether someone believes in the scientific method or not.

1434 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:17:35am

re: #1423 Occasional Reader

So, you *are* familiar with Macho Grande.

1435 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:17:50am

re: #1259 avanti

I think some sort of a bill must pass, we've tried and failed so many times. Perhaps a scaled down bill with some cost cutting in place that could be expanded later.

Obama could get some healthacare reforms enacted like addressing the working poor etc & he knows it. The guy wants control of the entire healthcare delivery system.
why arent there open televised hearings with all sides heard?
The Clintons made the same errror. Hillary & Ira Magaziner took a bunch of like thinking people to Jackson Hole & hammered out a mess.
It when down in flames & Hillary never again looked so smart

1436 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:17:55am

re: #1421 Daria Emmons

Please read The Lonely Man of Faith, but Rabbi Joseph Solvetchik.

He deals with exactly that topic and finds the various stories of creation actually compliment each other.

Honestly. Where else could one engage in a debate about obamacare, spin heart puns and obtain references to Rav Soloveitchik? Gotta love this place.

1437 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:18:17am

re: #1376 Flyers1974

Excellent book. Nonfiction. I had no clue - in the early 1980's Salt Lake City was known (briefly) as the Beirut of America or something to that effect. Long story short: guy trades in rare documents. Gets into borrowing from peter to pay paul, that kind of thing. Mormon Church buys doc's from him knowing they may be fake, but if not fake, the doc's will be bad for the religion. Car bombs going off, people getting murdered. Insane.

That's completely fascinating. I've never heard of it; I've bookmarked your post. I had no idea about any of that.

I've visited Utah briefly a couple of times (tourism and skiing) and I loved Utah---it's gorgeous. I know a few Mormons, some are still religious and some are not, and they are all terrific people. (They also tell me some scary stories about their more fundamentalist relatives or acquaintances.)

1438 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:18:35am

re: #1426 KenJen

That happens to me a clot.

Your'e just a bleeding heart.

1439 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:19:22am

re: #1387 Daria Emmons

Good comment.

My underlying point is that evolution appears to propose humanity is an accident. To the extent that it does, I see a conflict with religion.

I believe - now that I skimmed over the broad outline of what theistic evolution is - the people I spoke to believed in theistic evolution rather than ID.

However, if humanity is deigned not an accident, I wonder ultimately how that comports with scientific understanding of evolution.

Likewise [good comment]

I was not thinking in terms of humanity as a whole, but in terms of individuals. But, thanks for the food for thought.

Going back to my question - here is my sticky issue: If we are but biological accidents, then, under the Darwinian rule of survival of the fittest, there are no rules.

But we have ethical notions that seem to supersede survival of the fittest. Where did they come from?

1440 Kragar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:19:24am

Israel cuts 1948 'catastrophe' from Arabic texts

JERUSALEM — The Israeli government will remove references to what Palestinians call the "catastrophe" of Israel's creation from textbooks for Arab schoolchildren, the education minister said Wednesday.

The reference to "al-naqba," the Arabic word catastrophe, as Palestinians call their defeat and exile in the war over Israel's 1948 creation, was inserted by a dovish Israeli education minister in 2007.

The phrase remains contentious six decades later, a symptom of the continuing divisions in Israel. Many Israeli Arabs identify politically with their Palestinian counterparts in the West Bank and Gaza. As a result, some Israeli Jews accuse Israeli Arabs of disloyalty to the country.

Israel's current government, headed by Benjamin Netanyahu and his hard-line Likud Party, includes members who favor cracking down on Israeli Arabs by ordering loyalty oaths or even moving them out of Israel.

"No other country in the world, in its official curriculum, would treat the fact of its founding as a catastrophe," Education Minister Gideon Saar of Likud told Israel's parliament on Wednesday.

1441 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:19:30am

re: #1429 Creeping Eruption

Ever read the Hamlet Warning? Takes place in Santa Domingo. Always wanted to go there.

Heck, I didn't even know there was a sequel to "Hamlet"!

//

Most who come to the DR for play, go to other parts that have nice beaches, e.g. Punta Cana.

1442 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:19:46am

re: #1148 johnnyreb

I got my navy pension, my wife's Navy pension and my VA and we both work full time and I am friggin scared of Obamacare. That mostly stems from my treatment at the VA. America your health care will work exactly like the VA does now. Not enough doctors and the good ones wind up quitting because they are overwhelmed. I just got approved for a knee replacement through the VA and I am dreading it.

Amen!

1443 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:19:57am

Wow. I just noticed that I posted my 5,000th blog posting today at A Blog For All. To all those that don't mind my shameless blog pimping here and follow my links, thanks.

1444 BlueCanuck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:20:05am

re: #1438 midwestgak

Your'e just a bleeding heart.

He's just going to beat it to death, that's all.

1445 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:20:20am

re: #1419 midwestgak

They really pump you up.

Some are pretty weak and with so many on one thread things get kind of congestive.

1446 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:20:24am

Question Lizards.

Can I get away with calling my children African American? They are more AA than just about all of the AA in the US.

1447 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:20:26am

re: #1432 wahabicorridor

WHAT did the bitch say about him? (I disagree with him on the Pollard issue, but he seems like a fine man to me)

She called him a "kapo," "out to slit our throats." All because he said that the would-be Bronx bombers (of Riverdale synagogues) do not speak for Islam. He did not say there is no problem of suicide bombing/terrorism. In fact he said there WAS such a problem. But he essentially said Islam is not inherently evil.

That resulted in Pam Gellar calling the man a "kapo" out to "slit our throats."

She had two posts on the subject - the first one, and then one defending herself.

And Robert Spencer and Andrew Bostom agreed with her and defended her.

1448 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:20:28am

re: #1374 SanFranciscoZionist

The Catholic church, many Protestant churches, and most branches of Judaism accept evolution. I have no reason think that the Buddhists, the Sikhs, or the Hindus are opposed. I don't know about Islam--I know there are those who ally with Christian anti-evolutionists, but I have no reason to believe they are normative.What's 'generally'?

Islam is solid Creationism. That black monolith that they circle during the Haj is reputed to contain a meteor taken from the Garden of Eden & given to Mohammad by the Angel.

1449 Nevergiveup  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:21:13am

re: #1446 Erik The Red

Question Lizards.

Can I get away with calling my children African American? They are more AA than just about all of the AA in the US.

Give it a shot

1450 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:21:26am

re: #1181 laZardo

That wouldn't make the latter group very "faithful" then, would it?

Piety does not require you to believe every damnfool thing the Pope says. Popes are people. They get silly sometimes. They know that. This is why the Pope does not walk around speaking ex cathedra all day long.

1451 Buck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:21:53am

re: #1376 Flyers1974

Excellent book. Nonfiction. I had no clue - in the early 1980's Salt Lake City was known (briefly) as the Beirut of America or something to that effect. Long story short: guy trades in rare documents. Gets into borrowing from peter to pay paul, that kind of thing. Mormon Church buys doc's from him knowing they may be fake, but if not fake, the doc's will be bad for the religion. Car bombs going off, people getting murdered. Insane.

Now a plot line on Big Love.

1452 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:00am

re: #1439 unreconstructed rebel

Going back to my question - here is my sticky issue: If we are but biological accidents, then, under the Darwinian rule of survival of the fittest, there are no rules.

But we have ethical notions that seem to supersede survival of the fittest. Where did they come from?

Some say they evolved. Darwinian concepts can be very complex.

1453 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:02am

Gawd, but this connection is slow...

1454 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:05am

re: #1438 midwestgak

Your'e just a bleeding heart.

Bleeding Heart ...

1455 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:05am

re: #1449 Nevergiveup

Oh make no mistake, I will when the opportunity presents its self. :)

1456 rightside  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:09am

re: #1446 Erik The Red

were they born there?

1457 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:23am

re: #1450 SanFranciscoZionist

Piety does not require you to believe every damnfool thing the Pope says. Popes are people. They get silly sometimes. They know that. This is why the Pope does not walk around speaking ex cathedra all day long.

I'd hate to walk around all day with a catheter too... oh wait.

1458 laZardo  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:31am

re: #1367 Kosh's Shadow

(took shower, sorry for delay)

He probably would be a bit disappointed with the current result, unless that's all part of some Revelation He has later on.

re: #1374 SanFranciscoZionist

Generally as in accordance with scripture. Perhaps the Buddhists (or was that Hindus?) with their cyclical view of the world might have an easier time adapting their ideology to it.

1459 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:35am

re: #1456 rightside

were they born there?

Yes

1460 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:45am
1461 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:50am

re: #1445 turn

Some are pretty weak and with so many on one thread things get kind of congestive.

I got nothin. I'm a failure.

1462 KenJen  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:54am

re: #1438 midwestgak

Your'e just a bleeding heart.

Boy. This thread's pulse is really slow. Need new thread stat.

1463 Desert Dog  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:55am

re: #1448 opnion

Islam is solid Creationism. That black monolith that they circle during the Haj is reputed to contain a meteor taken from the Garden of Eden & given to Mohammad by the Angel.

And all this time I thought alcohol was strictly prohibited in Islam. Sounds like Mohammad hit the sauce pretty hard to come up with some of that stuff.

1464 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:22:58am

re: #1421 Daria Emmons

Please read The Lonely Man of Faith, but Rabbi Joseph Solvetchik.

He deals with exactly that topic and finds the various stories of creation actually compliment each other.

They are both contradictory & complimentary - which suggests to me that something else is going on - that God wants us to "get it", not sweat the mechanics.

1465 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:23:12am

re: #1440 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Good on Israel - and about time, too!

1466 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:23:37am

re: #1460 buzzsawmonkey

Everyone knows that the Ka'aba was built as a roadside attraction to be the World's Biggest Tefillin.

I would not be surprised to see a price on your head after that one.

1467 KansasMom  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:23:52am

re: #1446 Erik The Red

Question Lizards.

Can I get away with calling my children African American? They are more AA than just about all of the AA in the US.

Need a little background info before I can answer that...what is the African connection?

1468 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:23:55am

re: #1462 KenJen

Boy. This thread's pulse is really slow. Need new thread stat.

Code Blue!

1469 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:23:58am

re: #1123 scottishbuzzsaw

I don't think "magnesium" colored nails would work for me...Morning, {yma}!

Not all car colors would look good on fingernails. My car was a metallic maroon, though, great nail color.

1470 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:24:13am

re: #1453 Occasional Reader

Gawd, but this connection is slow...

Hi OR, try spy mode - it's slow at LGF too.

1471 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:24:42am
1472 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:24:42am

re: #1433 Daria Emmons

Science is never perfect and never will be. We never will have a perfect understanding of the universe, and I think the striving for knowledge is what keeps us human.

What is important is whether someone believes in the scientific method or not.

I think it's pretty hard to deny that it works when applied as intended (even though many try to deny it). I believe that if we are correct in our belief in a creator, that some day (maybe after we're long gone), science and religion should meet in harmonious agreement on everything. Otherwise, one would clearly be wrong. I don't like that prospect much (the "otherwise" part).

1473 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:24:50am

re: #1446 Erik The Red

Question Lizards.

Can I get away with calling my children African American? They are more AA than just about all of the AA in the US.

Go for it. To my mind, Obama isn't "African-American", at least as that term has been used during my lifetime to denote a distinct American ethno-cultural identification. He had no more ancestors who endured the "Middle Passage" than I do.

1474 rightside  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:24:55am

re: #1459 Erik The Red

Absolutely. Make sure when filling out anything for them check AA.

1475 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:25:07am

re: #1469 Alouette

Not all car colors would look good on fingernails. My car was a metallic maroon, though, great nail color.

My wifes car was metallic maroon. She got a new car, and lo and behold, I now have a metallic maroon car. Funny that.

1476 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:25:15am

re: #1446 Erik The Red

Question Lizards.

Can I get away with calling my children African American? They are more AA than just about all of the AA in the US.

Try it and see what happens. :)

1477 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:25:25am

re: #1460 buzzsawmonkey

Everyone knows that the Ka'aba was built as a roadside attraction to be the World's Biggest Tefillin.


The RoP would not like that.

1478 JHW  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:25:39am

re: #1336 yma o hyd

re: #1347 Sharmuta

Have you read this one by Sowell, Sharmuta? I read it years ago and have never forgotten it. Basically, (and I hope I'm explaining this right), he argues in conclusion that due to several happy accidents of history, the liberties we enjoy are derived from a unique culture that developed in the British Isles and nowhere else on earth. He argues against racial, and racist, arguments interpreting history . I'm not explaining this very well, but I highly recommend the book.
Conquests and Cultures...Thomas Sowell

Amazon.com Review
Another tour de force by one of America's leading public intellectuals. Conquests and Cultures continues in the tradition of Sowell's superb books, Race and Culture and Migrations and Cultures. The series attempts to understand the meaning of cultural differences, including how these differences have influenced the economic and social fates of civilizations, nations, and ethnic groups. This particular installment focuses on how military conquest both destroys culture and spreads it by examining the histories of the English, the Africans, the Slavs, and the indigenous people of the New World. Sowell rejects the cultural relativism that is currently so fashionable in the universities and forthrightly believes that some cultures--understood as "the working machinery of everyday life"--are clearly superior to others. He marshals a massive amount of scholarly material to support his ideas, and capably turns this mountain of data into straightforward prose.
1479 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:25:41am

re: #1469 Alouette

Not all car colors would look good on fingernails. My car was a metallic maroon, though, great nail color.

Nice.

1480 dwells38  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:25:45am

re: #1383 Kosh's Shadow

Well, Mark Twain has said the existence of the Jewish people is proof of G-d. No other people have survived exile and maintained their identity.

What I'm trying to say is that science doesn't contradict (some interpretations of) religion, and vice-versa.
You don't have to be an atheist to be a scientist.

Right I agree with that last sentence. I just get nervous when they even come close because to intermingle the two results in absurdity. No disrespect intended to anyone's religious beliefs.

If one believes in God while understanding the mountain of evidence pointing to natural processes over time having produced galaxies, solar systems, and living creatures then it seems to me one would need to view that God as being abstract, outside of the physical universe and unconcerned with the minutae that produced astronomical bodies and humans. Because if there is such supreme being with a hand in everything then he's got a lot to answer for such as his penchent for mass death, disease and rampant injustice.

I just read a story the other day that Muslim girls in Iran are being raped JUST SO they can be executed in accordance with Islamic law (can't execute a virgin). Do you think the supreme being could step in every once in awhile and stop some of the gut wrenching sickness endemic in whole societies? Evidently not.

1481 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:25:53am

re: #1447 Daria Emmons

Ah. A display of the complete lack of class we've come to know and despise.

1482 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:25:55am

re: #1391 Mad Al-Jaffee

I think #4 is problematic because my sister in law is not a citizen, but she is a resident. A resident who has been married to an American for almost 20 years, a homeowner, state employee and taxpayer.

Problematic for me as well. My wife is also a P.R. and she's paid quite a bit in taxes since she came to this country. If she or any PR is paying all the taxes required and is here legally, why would she not be entitled to the benefits of citizens?

1483 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:26:15am

re: #1461 midwestgak

I got nothin. I'm a failure.

It's ok gal, just hang in there and you'll get your rhythm back.

1484 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:26:21am

re: #1471 buzzsawmonkey

They're going to take out "naqba" references?

Who's going to win the coveted Catastrophe Trophy now?

They have changed the category now. It is now "Best Key." The trophy is, you guessed it . . . a giant key.

1485 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:26:24am

re: #1472 eschew_obfuscation

I think it's pretty hard to deny that it works when applied as intended (even though many try to deny it). I believe that if we are correct in our belief in a creator, that some day (maybe after we're long gone), science and religion should meet in harmonious agreement on everything. Otherwise, one would clearly be wrong. I don't like that prospect much (the "otherwise" part).

I do not believe it is ever possible to know if God exists, unless we come to live in the age of the messiah.

Again, that is part of what keeps us human, is the not knowing.

1486 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:26:39am

re: #1460 buzzsawmonkey

Everyone knows that the Ka'aba was built as a roadside attraction to be the World's Biggest Tefillin.

And that's why, under my proposed Middle East Comprehensive Peace Plan, the whole of Mecca will be placed under the direct management of the "South of the Border" folks. Just imagine the funny highway signs... "Pedro's Meteorite, eet really rocks!"

1487 Erik The Red  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:26:54am

re: #1467 KansasMom

Need a little background info before I can answer that...what is the African connection?

I am American and my kids were born in Africa. Pretty clear to me that makes them AA. :)

1488 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:28:06am

re: #1421 Daria Emmons

Please read The Lonely Man of Faith, but Rabbi Joseph Solvetchik.

He deals with exactly that topic and finds the various stories of creation actually compliment each other.

Noted for my reading.
Much of what I have on Kabbalah is from Aryeh Kaplan's books, including a very short one (really excerpts from his other works, I believe), called Kabbalah and the Age of the Universe and his translation and commentary on Sefer Yetzirah (The Book of Formation)

And I have to admit I haven't read either in its entirety yet.

1489 yma o hyd  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:28:08am

re: #1478 JHW

re: #1347 Sharmuta

Have you read this one by Sowell, Sharmuta? I read it years ago and have never forgotten it. Basically, (and I hope I'm explaining this right), he argues in conclusion that due to several happy accidents of history, the liberties we enjoy are derived from a unique culture that developed in the British Isles and nowhere else on earth. He argues against racial, and racist, arguments interpreting history . I'm not explaining this very well, but I highly recommend the book.
Conquests and Cultures...Thomas Sowell

Thanks - that looks really interesting.
Bookmarked - and it'll go on my wishlist straightaway ... (am 'overdrawn' in regard to my amazon account ...!)

1490 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:28:14am

re: #1475 Creeping Eruption

My wifes car was metallic maroon. She got a new car, and lo and behold, I now have a metallic maroon car. Funny that.

Nothing makes a car disgusting more quickly than to share it with a man. My husband and I have to share a car. He smokes, drinks soda, eats pretzels and does everything else to "mark" the territory. Also he smashed the right front fender and we don't have collision insurance.

But the worst, the absolute worst is having to readjust the seat.

1491 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:28:17am

Mainstreaming the nutcases...

Liz Cheney Defends Birthers On Larry King (VIDEO)

1492 unreconstructed rebel  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:28:29am

Time to go. Godspeed, y'all.

1493 Kragar  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:28:29am

re: #1486 Occasional Reader

And that's why, under my proposed Middle East Comprehensive Peace Plan, the whole of Mecca will be placed under the direct management of the "South of the Border" folks. Just imagine the funny highway signs... "Pedro's Meteorite, eet really rocks!"

Only 232 more miles to go!

1494 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:28:30am

re: #1441 Occasional Reader

Heck, I didn't even know there was a sequel to "Hamlet"!

//

Most who come to the DR for play, go to other parts that have nice beaches, e.g. Punta Cana.

Reminds me of my brother going to Jamaica a couple of times for work. He was filming inland in the bauxite mines; not what your usual tourist sees!

1495 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:28:40am

re: #1483 turn

It's ok gal, just hang in there and you'll get your rhythm back.

Elton John where are you? "Don't go breaking my . . ."

1496 Pianobuff  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:29:09am

Here's Bobby Jindals opinion on Healthcare (from the WSJ).

First, Mr. Obama doggedly promises that if you like your (private) health-care coverage now, you can keep it. That promise is hollow, because the Democrats’ reforms are designed to push an ever-increasing number of Americans into a government-run health-care plan...


Then

Second, the Democrats disingenuously argue their reforms will not diminish the quality of our health care even as government involvement in the delivery of that health care increases massively. For all of us who have seen the Federal Emergency Management Agency’s response to hurricanes, this contention is laughable on its face. When government bureaucracies drive the delivery of services—in this case inserting themselves between health-care providers and their patients—quality degradation will surely come...

And

Third, Mr. Obama’s rhetoric paints a picture of a massive new benefit that will actually cost average Americans less than what they pay today. The Democrats want middle-class taxpayers to believe they won’t feel the pinch of this initiative, even as their employers are assessed massive new taxes. They might as well try to argue that up is down. The analysis of the Democrats’ proposal by the Congressional Budget Office shows that it will not reduce government spending on health care, and that it will substantially increase the federal deficit—and this despite all the tax increases.

Jindal then describes seven principles that could be used to define reform, including consumer choice guided by transparency, aligned consumer interests, medical lawsuit reform, insurance reform, pooling for small businesses, pay for performance and refundable tax credits. He concludes:

These steps would bring down health-care costs. They would not bankrupt our nation or increase taxes in the midst of a recession. They are achievable reforms with bipartisan consensus and public support. All they require is a willingness by the president to slow down and have an honest discussion with Americans about the real downstream consequences of his ideas. Let’s start there.
1497 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:29:30am

re: #1480 dwells38

Well, in terms of western thinking, you've got to find a role for free will in there somewhere.

1498 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:29:36am

re: #1463 Desert Dog

And all this time I thought alcohol was strictly prohibited in Islam. Sounds like Mohammad hit the sauce pretty hard to come up with some of that stuff.

From what I have been able to read about him , he was a psycho, delusional nut.
He plagiarized freely from Judaism & Christianity.
He claimed that he got his revelations in a cave from the Angel Gabriel.
Yeah that's it, that's the ticket.

1499 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:29:41am
1500 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:29:59am

re: #1451 Buck

Now a plot line on Big Love.

I don't have HBO, so I've been waiting forever for the third season to come out on DVD. They are on the fourth season now I take it? Is the third as good as the first two?

1501 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:30:06am

re: #1446 Erik The Red

Question Lizards.

Can I get away with calling my children African American? They are more AA than just about all of the AA in the US.

LOL! Yep, they are actually from Africa!

1502 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:30:06am

You will notice how the left wing spin is to call the act of accurately describing what is in the health care plan "scare tactics".

I expect to hear a lot of this same crap tonight.

1503 KansasMom  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:30:18am

re: #1487 Erik The Red

I am American and my kids were born in Africa. Pretty clear to me that makes them AA. :)

I'd say its a nice inside joke, but would leave it at that.

1504 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:30:33am

re: #1347 Sharmuta

No. I wouldn't recommend it. Horowitz is off in his analysis, imo. I would have you read A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell instead. Then you would be prepared to understand where Horowitz is going wrong.

Just bought A Conflict of Visions and The Housing Boom And Bust by Dr. Sowell. Should make for some interesting reading shortly. :-)

1506 turn  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:31:05am

re: #1495 midwestgak

Elton John where are you? "Don't go breaking my . . ."

Oh good, a new thread. I thought for a minute there I was going to have a heart attack things got so slow.

1507 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:31:08am

re: #1490 Alouette

Nothing makes a car disgusting more quickly than to share it with a man. My husband and I have to share a car. He smokes, drinks soda, eats pretzels and does everything else to "mark" the territory. Also he smashed the right front fender and we don't have collision insurance.

But the worst, the absolute worst is having to readjust the seat.

Not this man. When she turned it over to me I found a half eaten piece of cheese toast under her seat. I still won't let he live it down.

1508 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:31:30am
1509 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:31:42am

re: #1480 dwells38

Right I agree with that last sentence. I just get nervous when they even come close because to intermingle the two results in absurdity. No disrespect intended to anyone's religious beliefs.

If one believes in God while understanding the mountain of evidence pointing to natural processes over time having produced galaxies, solar systems, and living creatures then it seems to me one would need to view that God as being abstract, outside of the physical universe and unconcerned with the minutae that produced astronomical bodies and humans. Because if there is such supreme being with a hand in everything then he's got a lot to answer for such as his penchent for mass death, disease and rampant injustice.

I just read a story the other day that Muslim girls in Iran are being raped JUST SO they can be executed in accordance with Islamic law (can't execute a virgin). Do you think the supreme being could step in every once in awhile and stop some of the gut wrenching sickness endemic in whole societies? Evidently not.

The question of why bad things happen is something completely different from reconciling science and religion, and I have only a quite limited understanding of it, so I won't try to explain it.

1510 haakondahl  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:32:23am

re: #1144 Sharmuta

You're starting to make me think you're a shill for ID rather than being confused.
ID DOES NOT ACCEPT EVOLUTION!

Shar, I do believe that you are correct. If she (?) is shilling, it is because she herself does not see the "special relationship" as compatible with evolution. She is quite careful to spell out how the Genesis hardliners could not possibly accept evolution. If she is shilling, she is pronouncing Takfir on the evolutionist-sympathizing Kafir, excommunicating the heretics.

1511 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:32:35am

re: #1490 Alouette

Nothing makes a car disgusting more quickly than to share it with a man. My husband and I have to share a car. He smokes, drinks soda, eats pretzels and does everything else to "mark" the territory. Also he smashed the right front fender and we don't have collision insurance.

But the worst, the absolute worst is having to readjust the seat.

Heh... my wife gets pretty worked up over having to readjust the seat also... why is that so bothersome? I have to do it after she drove the car and it doesn't bother me.

1512 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:33:01am

re: #1494 redstateredneck

Reminds me of my brother going to Jamaica a couple of times for work. He was filming inland in the bauxite mines; not what your usual tourist sees!

And, similiarly, I've been there, but only to Kingston for work. (And Kingston is no treat.)

1513 aggieann  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:33:23am

re: #1495 midwestgak

Elton John where are you? "Don't go breaking my . . ."

Or "Bad Blood" . . .

1514 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:33:45am

re: #1274 midwestgak

If only Dr. Mengele were alive to see this./

Not that cute. Sorry.

1515 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:34:06am

re: #1504 Honorary Yooper

Just bought A Conflict of Visions and The Housing Boom And Bust by Dr. Sowell. Should make for some interesting reading shortly. :-)

I've read the Housing Boom book - pretty comprehensive and a quick read too.

1516 redstateredneck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:34:39am

re: #1512 Occasional Reader

And, similiarly, I've been there, but only to Kingston for work. (And Kingston is no treat.)

He told me about being up on a catwalk way above the mining machinery. Apparently, they don't have anything like OSHA there.

1517 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:35:45am

re: #1480 dwells38

i updinged you because I get what you're saying, and I understand why. I'm going to disagree though:

pointing to natural processes over time having produced galaxies, solar systems, and living creatures then it seems to me one would need to view that God as being abstract, outside of the physical universe and unconcerned with the minutae that produced astronomical bodies and humans. Because if there is such supreme being with a hand in everything then he's got a lot to answer for such as his penchent for mass death, disease and rampant injustice.

re: bolded sentence: Not so, and the Catholic Church is one big counterexample. It's perfectly possible to accept the idea of a Prime mover or a creator who devised the world in this way and devised it in such a way that it involves evolution, without having to endorse the idea of God as a handsoff Creator (a la Deism). Think of God here as building the world and building in evolution.

As for your second sentence-- that's a different problem, wholly divorced from the evolution issue. See the Catholics on this too: it's the problem of theodicy. And all religions face that regardless of their stances on evolution.

1518 Desert Dog  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:35:58am

re: #1498 opnion

From what I have been able to read about him , he was a psycho, delusional nut.
He plagiarized freely from Judaism & Christianity.
He claimed that he got his revelations in a cave from the Angel Gabriel.
Yeah that's it, that's the ticket.

Ok, maybe he smoked Qwat instead? There is some kind of chemical involved with this revelation, there has to be.

1519 Buck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:36:37am

re: #1491 Killgore Trout

Mainstreaming the nutcases...

Liz Cheney Defends Birthers On Larry King (VIDEO)

She didn't say anything to make anyone think she is a Nirther...but she does understand why some people are clutching at this nonsense.

1520 haakondahl  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:37:45am

re: #1324 Daria Emmons

Does theistic evolution believe mankind is seperate or distinct from animals in some way?

There's that single point again.

1521 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:37:58am

re: #1516 redstateredneck

He told me about being up on a catwalk way above the mining machinery. Apparently, they don't have anything like OSHA there.

And definitely no lawyers!

1522 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:38:23am

re: #1391 Mad Al-Jaffee

I think #4 is problematic because my sister in law is not a citizen, but she is a resident. A resident who has been married to an American for almost 20 years, a homeowner, state employee and taxpayer.

The more I think about it, #1 is problematic because lawyers will make less money./

1523 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:38:38am

re: #1509 Kosh's Shadow

The question of why bad things happen is something completely different from reconciling science and religion, and I have only a quite limited understanding of it, so I won't try to explain it.

Damn, I answered this in 1517 and you'd beaten me to it and done it better. :) Cheers! Also, upding!

1524 Buck  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:38:53am

re: #1500 Flyers1974

I don't have HBO, so I've been waiting forever for the third season to come out on DVD. They are on the fourth season now I take it? Is the third as good as the first two?

I like it, and the last season had a blockbuster ending...

I think the last five episodes were the best ever.

1525 albusteve  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:40:22am

re: #1512 Occasional Reader

And, similiarly, I've been there, but only to Kingston for work. (And Kingston is no treat.)

Kingston is hell on earth...been there many times

1526 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:42:07am

re: #1524 Buck

Excellent. I'm on the waiting list for the third season on netflicks. Might have to break down and get HBO. I'm going to forget everything waiting for the DVD's to come out.

1527 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:42:32am

re: #1514 SanFranciscoZionist

Not that cute. Sorry.

Agreed. I don't like facile comparisons to Mengele or Hitler or jokes about them because it trivialises the very real and very unique evil they committed.

I'm very happy if I'm called a 'humourless liberal" about this. No problem.

1528 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:43:59am

re: #1394 Sharmuta

What's this "we" stuff? I'm more than entitled to my opinion of him and anyone else. He's most certainly connected to euro-fascists interests- it's a fact. And it certainly does make me think less of him. What other people think is up to them.

You are entitled to your opinion for sure.

1529 dwells38  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:47:56am

re: #1497 wahabicorridor

Well, in terms of western thinking, you've got to find a role for free will in there somewhere.

True but things get out-of-hand pretty quick with free will as we see. This supreme being knew this presumably.

.

1530 opnion  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:48:36am

re: #1518 Desert Dog

Ok, maybe he smoked Qwat instead? There is some kind of chemical involved with this revelation, there has to be.


It wouldn't be surprising if the Prophet was a stoner.

1531 wahabicorridor  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:49:44am

re: #1529 dwells38

True but things get out-of-hand pretty quick with free will as we see. This supreme being knew this presumably.

.

Well, yes, seeing as supposedly Lucifer set the example...

:)

1532 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:52:39am

re: #1528 kansas

You are entitled to your opinion for sure.

I'd say Sharmuta is more than "entitled" to her opinion on Horowitz. I'll back her up on it and so would many people, regardless of our differing ideologies.

I urge you to look at some of the (many) critiques of Horowitz (and his books) on the web. You'll see that Horowitz is the recipient of much criticism from all parts of the political spectrum. He's also a hack.

1533 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:52:46am

re: #1195 Pianobuff

But you've said in a previous post that the reform needs to be passed quickly. Why would you say that if within twenty minutes you are now saying you don't even know if you support it?

Why would you do that?

Outstanding catch.

Now prepare for goal post moving.

1534 The Left  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:53:54am

re: #1530 opnion

It wouldn't be surprising if the Prophet was a stoner.

Nothing wrong with stoners, buddy. :)

1535 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:59:04am

re: #1340 iceweasel

No; just members of LDS having a ceremony to 'convert' people after they die. AFAIK, they do it to all kinds of famous people after death too, all sorts of people who have no connection whatsoever to the religion.

They went through a phrase of converting Jews who died during the Shoah. The Jewish community did not take kindly to this. We negotiated. They agreed to stop that.

1536 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 10:04:05am

re: #1312 albusteve

avanti has a distinct pattern...

Yep:

1. spout talking points
2. when pressed for specifics or caught in a possible contradition, move goal posts.
3. when caught in a clear contradiction, sign off.

1537 StillAMarine  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 10:04:59am

For an informative view of Rabbi Maimonides (RAbbi Moshe Ben MAiMon, or RAMBAM) and his world, read JOEL L. KRAEMER's book Maimonides.
The relationship between science and theology is well covered in the chapter on one of his major works, Guide for the Perplexed.
From reading that one will become convinced that David Klinghoffer is full of kak.

1538 midwestgak  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 10:05:02am

re: #1514 SanFranciscoZionist

Not that cute. Sorry.

I understand.

1539 3 wood  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 10:10:14am

re: #1390 rightside

feel free to add

You;d be blind drunk in the first 3 minutes.

1540 Flyers1974  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 10:10:33am

re: #1533 3 wood

Outstanding catch.

Now prepare for goal post moving.

His "needs to be passed quickly" remark appears to be in reference to political tactics.

1541 dwells38  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 10:13:38am

re: #1509 Kosh's Shadow

The question of why bad things happen is something completely different from reconciling science and religion, and I have only a quite limited understanding of it, so I won't try to explain it.

I think they're related in that many will try to link religion and science so they can point to proof that their religious beliefs are actually real and not just beliefs. That all I see good and bad was created and/or made possible by this superior being. I was created by Theistic Evolution, let's say along with brontosauri and cancer.

So my question then becomes even if that is so I still don't understand the worship thing. Supreme being or not there is nothing morally coherent in this physical place we find ourselves except what we ourselves project.

1542 dwells38  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 10:26:59am

re: #1517 iceweasel

i updinged you because I get what you're saying, and I understand why. I'm going to disagree though:


re: bolded sentence: Not so, and the Catholic Church is one big counterexample. It's perfectly possible to accept the idea of a Prime mover or a creator who devised the world in this way and devised it in such a way that it involves evolution, without having to endorse the idea of God as a handsoff Creator (a la Deism). Think of God here as building the world and building in evolution.

As for your second sentence-- that's a different problem, wholly divorced from the evolution issue. See the Catholics on this too: it's the problem of theodicy. And all religions face that regardless of their stances on evolution.

You and Kosh are probably right that I veered off of the main point but I can't seem to separate the two in my mind. Probably because when I entertain these ideas of prime movers or supreme beings I begin to then question what would motivate any being to do such a thing as create a world to inflict hardship and difficulty on living beings the vast majority not having the brain power to even guess he's there?

And there's no evidence even that this creator would be worthy of anyone's worship. I understand superior to mean all powerful and all knowing but It's also understood by most that he is also MORALLY superior. The only good things I see around me are usually other nice people and those can easily (or as easily) be explained by natural evolution too.

Hopefully that makes sense.

1543 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 10:40:25am

re: #1372 kansas

So we're crapping on David Horowitz now?

If you have so little respect for my position on the issue of support for fascists, why are you still posting comments at LGF?

1544 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 11:00:02am

I just want to comment here.

I wonder how I could be considered a "shill" for ID, when in fact I expressed no support for the view whatsoever.

1545 lurking faith  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 11:26:06am

re: #1511 eschew_obfuscation

Heh... my wife gets pretty worked up over having to readjust the seat also... why is that so bothersome? I have to do it after she drove the car and it doesn't bother me.

I've shared cars with people shorter and taller than I am, and I find that it's easy to push the seat back, but a royal pain to scootch it forward.

And if you're wearing spike heels or kitten heels, you can break them in the process.

1546 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 11:28:26am

re: #1543 Charles

If you have so little respect for my position on the issue of support for fascists, why are you still posting comments at LGF?

I didn't intend my comment as disrespect for your position on fascism. I saw my comment as being in support of David Horowitz. Have I missed your issues with Horowitz?

1547 lurking faith  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 11:44:56am

re: #1544 Daria Emmons

I just want to comment here.

I wonder how I could be considered a "shill" for ID, when in fact I expressed no support for the view whatsoever.

You did appear to be defending ID, at least academically, in a debate team sort of way.

It eventually became apparent that you had confused ID with theistic evolution. That's a fairly common mistake among people who haven't been paying attention lately, and the ID movement is deliberately capitalizing on that confusion in its attempts to sneak into the public school science curriculum.

I know it's not possible to read every LGF thread, but ID has been discussed here so much that people are suspicious when someone shows up and tries to redefine ID in a way that makes it look harmless and sensible.

1548 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:43:28pm

re: #933 Daria Emmons

I just want to reply to this.

I never said evolution is wrong. I never said "I do not believe in evolution," because I do.

But the very reason you pray in religion is because you believe God actually interferes in our daily lives and will in some way answer your prayers. Why would God answer prayers? Because, prayer itself is based upon the notion that God cares about humanity enough to answer prayers and even alter the course of history to answer such prayers.

Praying is inherently an act done with the thought in mind that God is an activist and listens to humans. Otherwise, it makes no sense at all why anyone should include, amongst the prayers, specific requests of God.

Evolution is part of a scientific method. Rather than mankind as a unique creature, apart from animals, and worthy of a special relationship with God, evolution proposes we are essentially an evolved animal.

I am not sure how someone could be a strong believer of the bible, with its ultimate message of the uniqueness of mankind and man's special relationship with God, and then say that mankind evolved from animals. Forget about biblical literalism. I am not even speaking about a literal reading of the bible - I am saying that I believe even the metaphoric message includes a notion that mankind is unique upon the earth and God answers prayers and cares about mankind.

I said I would not respond again, but I could not help myself!

I hope I am explaining myself a little better.

I believe you could be a Deist and believe in evolution. I believe that you could believe in God and believe in evolution. And I am personally agnostic, and do not claim to have the answers on the existence or lack of existence of God.

However, I do believe there is a conflict in Genesis with the theory of evolution. This is why the theory of evolution has spawned such a controversy, and there are so many religious groups which fight against it!

Some people do indeed pray for thaumaturgical reasons, that is, to appeal to God to magically reveal hidden knowledge or influence worldly events. Other people, otoh, pray for theurgical reasons, in order to personally connect with the divine.

I read the book of Genesis as a parable about the ancient advent of human self-conscious awareness (that which distinguishes us from the rest of the animal kingdom). The fruit of the knowledge of good and evil can be seen as an enabling psychedelic, and moral knowledge itself is a dividing line between humans and other terrestrial lifeforms (good and evil cannot be found in the natural world of the consciously unselfaware). Likewise, only the consciously self-aware could feel guilt or shame, or care about their nakedness. I see Adam and Eve as representative of ancient hunter-gatherers, and the conflict between Cain and Abel as a reflection of the conflict between the crop farmers and livestock ranchers who succeeded them.

1549 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:49:01pm

re: #1546 kansas

I didn't intend my comment as disrespect for your position on fascism. I saw my comment as being in support of David Horowitz. Have I missed your issues with Horowitz?

Upon what evidence are you basing your support?

1550 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:55:54pm

re: #1548 Salamantis

Some people do indeed pray for thaumaturgical reasons, that is, to appeal to God to magically reveal hidden knowledge or influence worldly events. Other people, otoh, pray for theurgical reasons, in order to personally connect with the divine.

I read the book of Genesis as a parable about the ancient advent of human self-conscious awareness (that which distinguishes us from the rest of the animal kingdom). The fruit of the knowledge of good and evil can be seen as an enabling psychedelic, and moral knowledge itself is a dividing line between humans and other terrestrial lifeforms (good and evil cannot be found in the natural world of the consciously unselfaware). Likewise, only the consciously self-aware could feel guilt or shame, or care about their nakedness. I see Adam and Eve as representative of ancient hunter-gatherers, and the conflict between Cain and Abel as a reflection of the conflict between the crop farmers and livestock ranchers who succeeded them.

I was referring to Jewish prayer, and specifically the Amidah.

As I said before, this is the prayer which Jews are supposed to say three times a day. This prayer includes requests of God. It is meant as a tool to connect to God, but also is considered a tool to ask requests as well. There are 18 parts - 6 praises of God, 6 thanks, and 6 requests. You have the right even to ask anything of God by making yourself worthy of receiving, via aligning your life plan, with God's plan. (if that makes any sense)

But to sum up - some religions/philosophies do not include requests of God and the notion that God is active in human affairs. But I believe Judaism certainly does include that belief as a central doctrine.

1551 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:57:01pm

re: #1549 Sharmuta

Upon what evidence are you basing your support?

David Horowitz's Front Page Mag posts some great articles by great writers and thinkers. He also posts some bad stuff.

I thus believe David Horowitz worthy of support and denigration all at once.

1552 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 12:59:37pm

re: #1551 Daria Emmons

David Horowitz's Front Page Mag posts some great articles by great writers and thinkers. He also posts some bad stuff.

I thus believe David Horowitz worthy of support and denigration all at once.

I want to add one more thing. I think this is a general problem of the anti-Jihad movement. They do some great work, but also some bad work. David Horowitz raises awareness of critical issues, including free speech on campus. But he also has bad links/associations and has had crap articles on Front Page Mag.

A mixed bag overall.

1553 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:00:00pm

re: #1175 sattv4u2

Not at all. If the Pope {[or respective religious leader thereof} said that the earth was flat, a few Catholics would take it as gospel, but the majority would wonder if the Popes mitre was on too tight

Which highlights an interesting serendipitous parallel. Just as there was a Soviet Bloc joke that went "they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work", there is a Catholic joke that goes "the Pope pretends to infallibly speak ex cathedra, and we pretend to believe that he does."

1554 dwells38  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:11:33pm

re: #1517 iceweasel

So just continuing on that last posted thought. The reason I ventured into the moral aspect is that putting God where there's no evidence for him creates bigger problems with our theories of how life began and why we're here. Without a God we can understand that the universe may appear cruel but that's just because it naturally tends toward an entropic state. Life is a frail and temporary digression from that natural path. This explains a lot including cancer and mean people and and Indonesian tsunamis.

But WITH God we find we have a whole lot more excuses to make for this god. Sure he's powerful but he wants you to learn things too. OK so he has to kill 100,000 people in Indonesia to get me to count my blessings?

See what I mean?

1555 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:19:32pm

re: #1324 Daria Emmons

Does theistic evolution believe mankind is seperate or distinct from animals in some way?

Is this what it all comes down to for you? The indignant proclamation that humans aren't related to no damned dirty ape?

Well, sorry about that (not really), but great apes and humans evolutionarily diverged from common ancestors a few million years ago, and the empirical evidence supporting this contention is massive, vast, and incontrovertible.

Theistic evolution has no problem with this fact; creationism, and it's belipsticked swine variant ID, do.

1556 kansas  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:28:41pm

re: #1549 Sharmuta

Upon what evidence are you basing your support?

I just like the guy when he is on TV and radio. I like to read Front Page Magazine. He always sounded so logical and reasonable to me.

1557 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:29:58pm

re: #1555 Salamantis

Is this what it all comes down to for you? The indignant proclamation that humans aren't related to no damned dirty ape?

Well, sorry about that (not really), but great apes and humans evolutionarily diverged from common ancestors a few million years ago, and the empirical evidence supporting this contention is massive, vast, and incontrovertible.

Theistic evolution has no problem with this fact; creationism, and it's belipsticked swine variant ID, do.

Since when did I say I have a problem with the theory of evolution?

I simply stated that I believe the theory of evolution does collide with Jewish theology, for the above-listed reasons.

I happen to be agnostic, but I like Judaism, despite what I see as its contradiction with the theory of evolution.

I said from the start that in this contradiction, I believe in evolution and certainly the fact that ID should not be taught in schools.

I had a dinner once with a young-earth Creationist. He was a Chabad rabbi, and told me that the earth was created 5,700 years ago to LOOK old. I sat there slack-jawed and speechless, shocked at what I heard. I nonetheless had a good time and enjoyed my evening, despite the shock of his words.

The debate over evolution and ID/creationism need not be so heated. I think we should acknowledge there are some major contradictions here, but not ever resolve these contradictions in science class. Science is about the scientific method, end of story. Any resolution of these issues should occur in theology/ethics/religion class.

1558 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:40:49pm

re: #1387 Daria Emmons

Good comment.

My underlying point is that evolution appears to propose humanity is an accident. To the extent that it does, I see a conflict with religion.

I believe - now that I skimmed over the broad outline of what theistic evolution is - the people I spoke to believed in theistic evolution rather than ID.

However, if humanity is deigned not an accident, I wonder ultimately how that comports with scientific understanding of evolution.

Theistic evolutionists believe that an omniscient and omnipotent deity is perfectly capable of setting the ground conditions at the very beginning of the universe that inexorably result in the evolution of humankind without the necessity for any further divine intervention in the process.

This contention is of course unproveable. But likewise, it is unfalsifiable. Which is why it is a belief, and not knowledge. And why it is not irrational to subscribe to it.

Creationism/ID, otoh, demands the existence of such divine intervention. And has rhetorically shot its pseudoscientific wad unsuccessfully endeavoring to prove it:

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

1559 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 1:54:41pm

re: #1557 Daria Emmons

I said from the start that in this contradiction, I believe in evolution...

Belief is only necessary in the absence of empirical evidence; in its overwhelming presence one can come to know the truth beyond rational statistical doubt of the evolutionary contention, merely by objectively and dispassionately perusing the mountains and oceans of empirical evidence supporting it, and noting the fact that no credible empirical evidence contradicts it.

1560 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:09:30pm

re: #1439 unreconstructed rebel

Likewise [good comment]

I was not thinking in terms of humanity as a whole, but in terms of individuals. But, thanks for the food for thought.

Going back to my question - here is my sticky issue: If we are but biological accidents, then, under the Darwinian rule of survival of the fittest, there are no rules.

But we have ethical notions that seem to supersede survival of the fittest. Where did they come from?

From our existential ground situation as spatiotemporally finite yet consciously self-and-other-aware individuals sharing limited space and resources with others like ourselves, and the self-preservational exigency to coexist in peace, security, freedom and prosperity with them.

Self-conscious awareness makes all the difference. It's what makes morality possible.

1561 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:11:04pm

re: #1558 Salamantis

Theistic evolutionists believe that an omniscient and omnipotent deity is perfectly capable of setting the ground conditions at the very beginning of the universe that inexorably result in the evolution of humankind without the necessity for any further divine intervention in the process.

This contention is of course unproveable. But likewise, it is unfalsifiable. Which is why it is a belief, and not knowledge. And why it is not irrational to subscribe to it.

Creationism/ID, otoh, demands the existence of such divine intervention. And has rhetorically shot its pseudoscientific wad unsuccessfully endeavoring to prove it:

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

Great article! I agree completely with your article.

I understand how you can say theistic evolution comports with science. But there is a piece you still are not recognizing: the notion of human exceptionalism implicit in Judaism, as well as Christianity. (as far as I am aware of) This notion of human exceptionalism is what runs afoul of evolution.

1562 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:27:35pm

re: #1433 Daria Emmons

Science is never perfect and never will be. We never will have a perfect understanding of the universe, and I think the striving for knowledge is what keeps us human.

What is important is whether someone believes in the scientific method or not.

Just because we don't know everything doesn't mean that we don't know a lot of things, and know them beyond a reasonable possibility of subsequent falsification, and a bargeload of the things that we do know conclusively demonstrate the empirical veracity of evolution with near-apodictic certainty.

1563 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:47:00pm

re: #1561 Daria Emmons

Great article! I agree completely with your article.

I understand how you can say theistic evolution comports with science. But there is a piece you still are not recognizing: the notion of human exceptionalism implicit in Judaism, as well as Christianity. (as far as I am aware of) This notion of human exceptionalism is what runs afoul of evolution.

The problem you mention mainly manifests itself in the more fundamentalist and literalist acolytes of theism; luckily, they are not normative for the group.

Our difference is self-conscious awareness. Douglas Hofstadter (the celebrated author of Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid) wrote an excellent book about our dynamically recursive self-awareness and its evolutionary roots and paths; it's title is I Am A Strange Loop.

I highly recommend it.

Great apes themselves pass the mirror test of self-awareness, but their self-awareness is rudimentary and concrete, not complex and abstract as is ours.

1564 Daria Emmons  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 7:50:56pm

re: #1562 Salamantis

Just because we don't know everything doesn't mean that we don't know a lot of things, and know them beyond a reasonable possibility of subsequent falsification, and a bargeload of the things that we do know conclusively demonstrate the empirical veracity of evolution with near-apodictic certainty.

I am at a loss over this comment. I did not imply that evolution is incorrect because you don't have full knowledge about it. Rather, I said that we have incomplete knowledge, but that is okay, as that does not disprove something. We will never have complete knowledge in this plane of existence. As long as you adhere to the scientific method, that is what counts.

As far as the issue of evolution, I spoke to a rabbi about it today. He said Judaism (mainstream) adheres to theistic evolution, rather than ID. However, his problem with evolution is the seeming contradiction between evolution and the way that mankind is deemed unique in the Torah. He did not say this renders evolution incorrect, but that it is a challenge that is not easily resolved.

1565 shortshrift  Wed, Jul 22, 2009 9:11:17pm

Daria Emmons:
As an atheist I, too, think that there is a contradiction between belief in God and belief in evolution, but it is very hard to express it without causing offense to the many deists who contribute - often with great erudition in both science and religion - to these discussions.
Salamantis states:
"Belief is only necessary in the absence of empirical evidence; in its overwhelming presence one can come to know the truth beyond rational statistical doubt of the evolutionary contention, merely by objectively and dispassionately perusing the mountains and oceans of empirical evidence supporting it, and noting the fact that no credible empirical evidence contradicts it."
He was stating this to explain that one can know evolution to be true because of empirical evidence. By the same token - as he says - where there is no empirical evidence it is necessary to believe. As there is no empirical evidence for God, it is necessary to have faith - to believe - in him. But why is it necessary to believe in a Creator for which there is no empirical evidence? What is this need? If the work ascribed to him, Creation, is explained by "chance" (evolution), why do we need either a God of Creation ( the deist God who created the universe and life and then shrouded himself in ineffability) or, even more puzzlingly, a God of Chance (the knob-twiddling experimenter of ID)? This is to my mind a contradiction - to discard creation as God's, but keep God nevertheless.
Science makes it impossible to read the Bible literally in its explanation of the history of earth and life. It must therefore make it impossible to read God literally. And God has indeed become a metaphor for the unkown first cause or a conceptual place-holder for the not yet known. But it is not obvious to me that the God of the Bible should be put to this use, unless it is psychologically hard to retire him.

1566 Abu Boo Boo  Fri, Jul 24, 2009 3:22:43pm

re: #59 Charles

Yes, it is very arguable, because Charles Darwin never used the term "survival of the fittest."

Actually, Darwin did use the term, though it was Herbert Spencer who thought it up.


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