Obama’s Afghanistan Speech
US News • Views: 2,702
Here’s a thread to discuss President Obama’s speech, and here’s the full text of the speech…
276 comments
5 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:24:12pm |
"There are those who say Afghanistan is another Vietnam..." Uh, yea, most members of your party.
| 6 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:24:42pm |
re: #3 TheMatrix31
Eh
I'm not a fan of his timetable, but he left the window open contingent upon what transpires in Pakistan. Good move.
| 7 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:24:50pm |
Man, the folks over on kos are ripping the President apart, I guess I'm not as big of a lefty as I thought I was.
| 9 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:25:12pm |
I like most of what has been said but will have to go over the text tomorrow morning. A couple things I could be partisan with, but it will have to wait.
| 10 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:25:24pm |
re: #7 webevintage
Man, the folks over on kos are ripping the President apart, I guess I'm not as big of a lefty as I thought I was.
Oh come on... try harder :)
| 13 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:26:24pm |
re: #7 webevintage
Man, the folks over on kos are ripping the President apart, I guess I'm not as big of a lefty as I thought I was.
The Dark Side has cookies.:)
| 14 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:26:32pm |
re: #4 Fenway_Nation
What's this I hear about a timetable?
I do like that he said "compelled to fight" but after that I just gotta remember that war is not about speeches...
| 15 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:26:34pm |
He has seen the intelligence briefings, and it has changed his stance.
| 17 |
Sharmuta Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:26:47pm |
I agree with his agenda, although he's selling a little too hard.
| 18 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:26:55pm |
| 19 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:26:59pm |
There aren't any surprises -- all of this was pretty much known in advance. 34,000 more soldiers are headed to Afghanistan.
| 20 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:27:01pm |
Money is no OBJECT when it comes to war.
Money IS an object when it comes to domestic policy.
| 21 |
doubter4444 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:27:09pm |
I like the way he lays things out, like it or not, it's clear and direct.
| 22 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:27:12pm |
He's turning this into a campaign speech, starting to piss me off. Let's stop the politicking about local issues, this is about our men and woman at war.
| 23 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:27:28pm |
re: #13 Cannadian Club Akbar
darn tootin.
that is actually my icon somewhere else...
"come to the darkside - we have cookies"
| 24 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:27:29pm |
| 25 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:27:32pm |
| 26 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:27:34pm |
re: #17 Sharmuta
I agree with his agenda, although he's selling a little too hard.
Exactly. And who is he selling it to?
The Left.
| 27 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:27:45pm |
| 28 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:27:57pm |
What? NOW he decides he's a fiscal conservative?
| 29 |
HelloDare Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:28:01pm |
No matter what he says or promises, it is all undermined by this statement.
We will remove our combat brigades from Iraq by the end of next summer, and all of our troops by the end of 2011.
Hey, Al-Qaeda, just hang around awhile and you've won.
Obama took all this time to make a decision and he ended up making one that will encourage the enemy and probably hand them a victory. And people will applaud this speech. Some may even call it Lincolnesque.
| 30 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:28:08pm |
re: #25 Fenway_Nation
He pretty much said its contingent on Pakistan, if I understood it right.
| 31 |
Sharmuta Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:28:31pm |
re: #15 Racer X
He has seen the intelligence briefings, and it has changed his stance.
And I think he's taking the right approach. I support a strategy similar to Iraq, and the situation in Pakistan has changed- the people have turned against them. Now is the time to strike hard on both sides.
| 32 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:28:51pm |
re: #21 doubter4444
I like the way he lays things out, like it or not, it's clear and direct.
/especially the withdrawal part...
| 33 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:29:12pm |
Yay, a goal of a world without nuclear weapons! HOORAY PEACE COOKIES!
/
| 34 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:29:19pm |
re: #30 TheMatrix31
Oh yay. Three cheers for the world's first failed nuclear state...
| 35 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:29:35pm |
| 36 |
drpangloss Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:29:36pm |
sounds nice...but no beef. no spine. no cajones. no betsim. improve homeland security and intelligence? hey BO's success ends when he forbids the use of muslim terrorist.
? new bridges with muslim world? yeah, they win, we lose
| 37 |
Sharmuta Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:29:54pm |
re: #28 Fenway_Nation
What? NOW he decides he's a fiscal conservative?
Heehee! Come to the fiscal conservative side, Obama! Cut spending!
| 38 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:30:18pm |
re: #34 Fenway_Nation
Oh yay. Three cheers for the world's first failed nuclear state...
With the Taliban looking toward them.
| 39 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:30:21pm |
re: #26 Racer X
Exactly. And who is he selling it to?
The Left.
Not just the Left...a good portion of the American people have lost their taste for war. They need to be reminded why were are in Afghanistan and what the new administration's foreign policy is.
| 40 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:31:00pm |
re: #34 Fenway_Nation
Oh yay. Three cheers for the world's first failed nuclear state...
it ain't failed till the fat lady si... shit never mind.
| 41 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:31:13pm |
re: #39 webevintage
Not just the Left...a good portion of the American people have lost their taste for war. They need to be reminded why were are in Afghanistan and what the new administration's foreign policy is.
appeasment is his FP...pretty obvious
| 42 |
HelloDare Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:31:32pm |
To abandon this area now – and to rely only on efforts against al Qaeda from a distance – would significantly hamper our ability to keep the pressure on al Qaeda, and create an unacceptable risk of additional attacks on our homeland and our allies.
Hey, but next year, it will be okay. No unacceptable risks if we wait a year or so:
We will remove our combat brigades from Iraq by the end of next summer, and all of our troops by the end of 2011.
| 43 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:31:36pm |
re: #37 Sharmuta
Heehee! Come to the fiscal conservative side, Obama! Cut spending!
Oh you laugh, but that is exactly what will happen. Spend like a drunken sailor for the first year or two, then cut back and proclaim fiscal responsibility.
| 44 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:32:15pm |
re: #35 Alouette
Punch and pie.
y'all are evil, stop tempting me with your conservative punch and pie...
| 46 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:32:24pm |
re: #43 Racer X
Oh you laugh, but that is exactly what will happen. Spend like a drunken sailor for the first year or two, then cut back and proclaim fiscal responsibility.
Mr Everything to everybody
| 47 |
Digital Display Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:32:27pm |
A world without Nuclear Weapons? I'm sure Iran and Russia is on board with those lofty silly goals...
| 48 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:32:43pm |
re: #7 webevintage
Man, the folks over on kos are ripping the President apart, I guess I'm not as big of a lefty as I thought I was.
It's not you - it's the President. He is not and was not the leftist wet dream the folks at HotAir and FNC would like the massed proles to believe.
| 49 |
doubter4444 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:32:43pm |
I'm not one who thinks we got to be there forever, and I never bought into the idea that a timetable let's them wait, it's bull.
They know we can't and won't stay.
| 51 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:32:59pm |
He is overselling now. Stop the campaigning.
You had me at "more troops".
*swoon*
| 52 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:32:59pm |
re: #26 Racer X
Exactly. And who is he selling it to?
The Left.
Support for the war is in the 20's, that's a issue. It's being attacked by both sides.
| 53 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:33:47pm |
re: #7 webevintage
Man, the folks over on kos are ripping the President apart, I guess I'm not as big of a lefty as I thought I was.
There's always someone who can outdo you.
| 54 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:33:50pm |
So we're not as innocent as we were during the time of Roosevelt. Cool.
/
| 56 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:34:03pm |
re: #52 avanti
Support for the war is in the 20's, that's a issue. It's being attacked by both sides.
of course, that's part of the plan
| 57 |
doubter4444 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:34:06pm |
re: #52 avanti
That's right he's selling the left with this.
| 58 |
Sharmuta Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:34:07pm |
re: #51 Racer X
He is overselling now. Stop the campaigning.
You had me at "more troops".
*swoon*
This isn't a speech for us. It is getting to be too much at this point, imo. He should have stopped a couple minutes ago.
| 59 |
austin_blue Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:34:10pm |
He just invoked the Long Gray Line. Good move.
| 60 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:34:14pm |
re: #47 HoosierHoops
A world without Nuclear Weapons? I'm sure Iran and Russia is on board with those lofty silly goals...
It was Reagan's goal. It may never be met, but you can shoot for it.
| 62 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:34:30pm |
re: #48 wozzablog
It's not you - it's the President. He is not and was not the leftist wet dream the folks at HotAir and FNC would like the massed proles to believe.
Or he actually found out what was actually at stake.
| 63 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:34:31pm |
re: #52 avanti
Support for the war is in the 20's, that's a issue. It's being attacked by both sides.
Perhaps a reminder is in order?
9/11
| 64 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:34:31pm |
re: #13 Cannadian Club Akbar
The Dark Side has cookies.:)
Ah, but the Light and Fuzzy Side has pot brownies!
| 65 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:35:19pm |
re: #57 doubter4444
That's right he's selling the left with this.
In part, that's true, but it's not just the left that is tiring of a eight year war.
| 66 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:35:20pm |
re: #58 Sharmuta
This isn't a speech for us. It is getting to be too much at this point, imo. He should have stopped a couple minutes ago.
Agreed!
Somebody pull the plug on the teleprompter!
| 67 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:35:21pm |
re: #19 Charles
There aren't any surprises -- all of this was pretty much known in advance. 34,000 more soldiers are headed to Afghanistan.
OK, can everyone stop wringing their hands now, then?
//Damn. I think I know at least one of them.
| 68 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:35:25pm |
The #tcot list at Twitter is full of comments like this:
what's with The Obama pronouncing it "tah-lee-bahn"? Bootlicking our enemy or is he trying to show how intellectual he is?
Yes, proper pronunciation is evidence of how evil Obama is.
| 69 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:35:26pm |
re: #48 wozzablog
It's not you - it's the President. He is not and was not the leftist wet dream the folks at HotAir and FNC would like the massed proles to believe.
And that's too bad... I wish the man can stick to his principles, like he laid out in his campaign.
| 70 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:35:31pm |
| 71 |
drpangloss Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:35:33pm |
bring back george bush!
ps. pretty lame applause
| 73 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:36:02pm |
re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist
Ah, but the Light and Fuzzy Side has pot brownies!
I'll see your brownies and up you a Hebrew National.
| 74 |
doubter4444 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:36:05pm |
Don't forget, these kids NEED these words, not us, we're not going.
They need to hear about a better future that they could die for.
| 75 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:36:23pm |
re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist
Ah, but the Light and Fuzzy Side has pot brownies!
Which is why I, as a member of the Dark Side, will proceed to take your pot brownies. :evilgrin: Silly hippy Jedi. :P
| 76 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:36:44pm |
re: #63 Racer X
Perhaps a reminder is in order?
9/11
I was glad to see that's how he started the speech.
| 77 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:37:09pm |
| 78 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:37:10pm |
re: #36 drpangloss
sounds nice...but no beef. no spine. no cajones. no betsim. improve homeland security and intelligence? hey BO's success ends when he forbids the use of muslim terrorist.
? new bridges with muslim world? yeah, they win, we lose
What do you want him to authorize the use of this Muslim terrorist for? I personally don't need one.
| 81 |
lawhawk Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:37:36pm |
Years of debate have left Democrats' stance on foreign policy in tatters. Sorry, but it was Democrats who pushed the Bush lied meme ad nauseum and they were the ones who were calling for a cut and run.
Then, with the surge, they opposed a troop increase in Iraq to stabilize the situation. Bush made a command decision and went with a troop increase - and it worked.
Now, with Democrats in charge of Congress and the White House, you've got Obama still trying to blame the situation on Bush, even as you have key Democrats complaining about the cost - as if that never stopped them from spending, and want to bring the troops home regardless of the long term consequences.
That part gets reinforced with a schedule of troop increases and decreases, and while the weasel words are there, it will mean that by 2012, he's planning on having the troops home from Afghanistan, even if the situation on the ground isn't what it should be.
Then, there's the issue with Pakistan. He thinks that we've had too narrow a relationship. When you've got a population in Pakistan that is just as apt to shout Death to America as it is to engage in suicide bombing and attacks against the Pakistani government, getting too cozy with the Pakistani government could be seen as a death warrant for the government. There were multiple assassination attempts against Musharraf. They assassinated Bhutto. The Taliban have repeatedly attacked Pakistan's nuclear infrastructure. It's not a stable situation.
In sum, this speech merely reinforces that Obama is still trying to trot out a blame Bush mentality.
| 82 |
Sharmuta Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:37:37pm |
Sen McCain says the President has made the right decision- on MSNBC
Disagrees with withdrawal date.
| 83 |
austin_blue Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:37:38pm |
Not bad. McCain is backing Obama's play right now, except for the exit strategy.
| 84 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:38:01pm |
re: #58 Sharmuta
This isn't a speech for us. It is getting to be too much at this point, imo. He should have stopped a couple minutes ago.
No shit. He's loosing his own base and this was a vain attempt at addressing them... this should have been for our military and our military only.
| 86 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:38:25pm |
re: #69 Walter L. Newton
And that's too bad... I wish the man can stick to his principles, like he laid out in his campaign.
He always supported the Afgan war, even in the campaign.
| 87 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:38:26pm |
WHERE IS MY CHARLIE BROWN CHRISTMAS!!!
| 88 |
MandyManners Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:38:32pm |
re: #62 Cannadian Club Akbar
Or he actually found out what was actually at stake.
Remember how bad he looked after he got his first briefing after he was elected?
| 89 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:39:03pm |
re: #48 wozzablog
It's not you - it's the President. He is not and was not the leftist wet dream the folks at HotAir and FNC would like the massed proles to believe.
This pretty much lays the last flicker of the love affair with the self-identified left to rest.
Next time they'll vote for whoever the Nader of the campaign is.
Whatever.
| 90 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:39:21pm |
re: #88 MandyManners
Remember how bad he looked after he got his first briefing after he was elected?
Me on a Saturday morning?
/
| 91 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:39:23pm |
re: #79 TheMatrix31
It was generally downhill from there.
Concur. He talks about unity, but that is not going to happen. Our nation is too polarized to unite, deal with it.
| 92 |
Digital Display Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:39:51pm |
re: #60 avanti
It was Reagan's goal. It may never be met, but you can shoot for it.
That's because he thought he had a partner in Russia.. We are dealing with issues a 1000 times more complex.. Iran, Terrorists and proliferation across the globe...
BTW..during that period didn't he deploy nuclear tipped MX missiles in Europe?
| 93 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:39:55pm |
| 94 |
webevintage Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:39:56pm |
re: #87 Cannadian Club Akbar
WHERE IS MY CHARLIE BROWN CHRISTMAS!!!
I know, I know.
All will be well on Dec. 15th...
| 96 |
HelloDare Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:40:16pm |
re: #29 HelloDare
No matter what he says or promises, it is all undermined by this statement.
Hey, Al-Qaeda, just hang around awhile and you've won.
Obama took all this time to make a decision and he ended up making one that will encourage the enemy and probably hand them a victory. And people will applaud this speech. Some may even call it Lincolnesque.
| 97 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:40:17pm |
re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist
This pretty much lays the last flicker of the love affair with the self-identified left to rest.
Next time they'll vote for whoever the Nader of the campaign is.
Whatever.
spoiled jerktoids...either stick to your principles or not vote...it's just a game o so many people
| 99 |
brent Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:40:52pm |
Afghanistan is a 'war of choice'? Is that what these jokers are calling it now? Obama is trying to rally our support around a war of choice - I can't get past the feeling there is a disconnect here.
| 100 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:40:55pm |
| 102 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:41:22pm |
re: #82 Sharmuta
Sen McCain says the President has made the right decision- on MSNBC
Disagrees with withdrawal date.
The withdrawal date was a PR move IMHO. He needed to sell the troop increase for a unpopular war. Notice he said "start a withdrawal "
| 103 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:41:30pm |
re: #63 Racer X
Perhaps a reminder is in order?
9/11
That's not a military objective, is the problem.
I bet any passing person on the street in San Francisco in 1943 could have told you what the goal in Europe and Japan was.
I do not think that is true of Afghanistan.
| 104 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:41:42pm |
re: #99 brent
Afghanistan is a 'war of choice'? Is that what these jokers are calling it now? Obama is trying to rally our support around a war of choice - I can't get past the feeling there is a disconnect here.
all wars are wars of choice
| 105 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:41:59pm |
re: #62 Cannadian Club Akbar
stepping up troops in Afghanistan was a campaign pledge..
His timetable for Iraq was too slow the the base too.
The base also wanted Single Payer healthcare - and were opposed to the specific mandates he proposed as scheme where there were still too many gaps for people to fall through.
His Environmental plans aren't radical enough for them either.
| 106 |
captdiggs Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:42:17pm |
So, essentially he took almost 5 months to decide to do what was originally recommended by General McChrystal.
I also note that the strategy is exactly the same as the one he opposed in the Iraq surge.
| 107 |
lawhawk Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:42:24pm |
re: #48 wozzablog
The reason that DU, Kos and the left isn't a fan of the speech is because he's sending more troops to Afghanistan. The far left wanted the troops home. They wanted cut and run and they're not getting it.
Democrats in Congress wanted the troops home, and are agitating for a cost-benefit analysis - even as they spend insane sums on pork. So, of course their online contingent isn't happy about this.
There's so much that isn't to like about the speech from all sides.
But the bottom line is that there will be a troop increase - a surge to help stabilize the situation and roll back any Taliban advances.
Moreover, I don't expect much from our NATO allies - they simply don't have more forces to send.
| 109 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:42:45pm |
re: #102 avanti
The withdrawal date was a PR move IMHO. He needed to sell the troop increase for a unpopular war. Notice he said "start a withdrawal "
right, sure...PR, got it
| 110 |
Cheechako Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:42:47pm |
Having a withdrawal date for the end of 2011 is going to make the Presidential debates in the fall of 2011 very interesting.
| 111 |
brent Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:42:51pm |
Then why make that distinction? Why not call it an unpopular war, or a blue war - you can't say we need to stop the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and it's a war of choice in the same breath.
| 112 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:42:51pm |
| 113 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:42:58pm |
re: #99 brent
Afghanistan is a 'war of choice'? Is that what these jokers are calling it now? Obama is trying to rally our support around a war of choice - I can't get past the feeling there is a disconnect here.
It was a choice. Bush made the decision to respond with military force. Would Kerry have responded in kind? Or with harsh words and a call for an investigation?
| 114 |
HelloDare Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:43:04pm |
The only words our enemies will take away from this speech:
We will remove our combat brigades from Iraq by the end of next summer, and all of our troops by the end of 2011.
| 115 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:43:19pm |
re: #105 wozzablog
stepping up troops in Afghanistan was a campaign pledge..
His timetable for Iraq was too slow the the base too.
The base also wanted Single Payer healthcare - and were opposed to the specific mandates he proposed as scheme where there were still too many gaps for people to fall through.
His Environmental plans aren't radical enough for them either.
That's my point. I am disappointed in Obama, he played the progressive card just to get elected and now he is telling his far left base to go to hell.
| 116 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:43:46pm |
Statler: Now that it's over, I liked that Obama speech?
Waldorff: Really? What did you like about it?
Statler: That it's over!
[both men laugh]
| 117 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:43:53pm |
re: #75 Varek Raith
Which is why I, as a member of the Dark Side, will proceed to take your pot brownies. :evilgrin: Silly hippy Jedi. :P
"If we don't do something, NOW man, in thirty years Coruscant is just gonna be one big CITY!"
Any Sith Academy fans here?
| 119 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:44:09pm |
re: #115 Walter L. Newton
That's my point. I am disappointed in Obama, he played the progressive card just to get elected and now he is telling his far left base to go to hell.
somebody had to...
| 120 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:44:10pm |
re: #110 Cheechako
Having a withdrawal date for the end of 2011 is going to make the Presidential debates in the fall of 2011 very interesting.
That's one of the political moves I don't like. Our troops aren't pawns for fucking re-election.
| 121 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:44:16pm |
re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist
I've said before that there will be a netroots candidate in Iowa and New Hampshire as a reminder to him of where his bread is buttered - but it will not be serious.
The leftist third party candidates will be negated by the righteous fury of the teabaggers if they run a third party candidate against the GOP nominee.
| 122 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:44:30pm |
re: #110 Cheechako
Having a withdrawal date for the end of 2011 is going to make the Presidential debates in the fall of 2011 very interesting.
True, if we are still mired down in the wars, he's screwed, if things are better, he's golden.
| 123 |
drpangloss Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:44:51pm |
let's see NOTUS (narcissist of the united states) asks for 30,000 which is 25% less than the General requested.
by the time they get there - they will be withdrawn.
took 3 months to make up his mind. reminds me of the anecdote about adlai stevenson in the best and the brightest. he asks his adviser if he has time to go to the bathroom. the adviser says yes. adlai says "yes but do i want to go?"
the setting of a timeline only gives ammo to our enemies.
in sum, as lame as the applause.
this is a failed presidency.
| 124 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:45:15pm |
Chrissy Mathews is complaining that the cadets looked bored.
| 125 |
MandyManners Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:45:21pm |
| 126 |
austin_blue Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:45:33pm |
re: #95 Racer X
I agree with John McCain.
I don't know. A timeline lights a fire under Karzai's butt.
| 127 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:45:53pm |
re: #115 Walter L. Newton
That's my point. I am disappointed in Obama, he played the progressive card just to get elected and now he is telling his far left base to go to hell.
yup...no conviction for anything...he is far out of his element for running this country
| 128 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:46:02pm |
re: #122 avanti
True, if we are still mired down in the wars, he's screwed, if things are better, he's golden.
the enemy knows that too...
| 129 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:46:03pm |
re: #97 albusteve
spoiled jerktoids...either stick to your principles or not vote...it's just a game o so many people
I think they'd argue they are sticking to their principles. They gave Obama a chance, and he continued the war against their wishes.
The religious right does something similar, except I've never figured out how they decide when they're in or out. Not as tuned in to their priorities.
| 130 |
HelloDare Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:46:04pm |
re: #124 Walter L. Newton
Chrissy Mathews is complaining that the cadets looked bored.
I guess their legs just weren't tingling.
| 131 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:46:38pm |
Now some MSNBC female pundit said this is probably the most intelligent speech the American public has ever heard from a president about war.
| 132 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:46:41pm |
| 134 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:47:29pm |
| 135 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:47:34pm |
re: #124 Walter L. Newton
Chrissy Mathews is complaining that the cadets looked bored.
They looked like cadets to me. Having sponsored a few midshipman, I was surprised they did not take the opportunity to take a well needed nap.
| 136 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:47:39pm |
re: #115 Walter L. Newton
He campaigned as a pragmatic progressive not a pie in the sky radical liberal - this was always going to be eventual fall out from the netroots.
I knew that before the election - some of his voters didn't though. I've never called him the second coming. There is a pragmatic far left to the Democratic base who knew exactly what they would be getting - and the internal politics of the Democrats and his engaging life story got him the nomination.
| 137 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:47:43pm |
re: #131 Walter L. Newton
Now some MSNBC female pundit said this is probably the most intelligent speech the American public has ever heard from a president about war.
[Deleted]
| 138 |
brent Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:47:44pm |
Karzai has his own problems - leaving his compound without 30 guards would light a fire under his butt. Telling him we're leaving makes him decide if he can 'win' or if he has to make better alliances. Play nice for two years and don't get killed when the Americans pull out.
| 139 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:47:53pm |
re: #107 lawhawk
The reason that DU, Kos and the left isn't a fan of the speech is because he's sending more troops to Afghanistan.
The majority of KosKidz approve of the speech and the troops increase...
Knowing what you know now about U.S. plans for Afghanistan?
I support the President's decision to send 30,000 more troops.
43% 190 votes
I oppose the President's decision to send 30,000 more troops.
39% 174 votes
I have not yet made up my mind.
16% 73 votes
No opinion
2% 7 votes
Meanwhile the wingnuts at Hot Air are making comments like...
Is anyone else upset that BHO keeps perverting national treasures and locations for his own ends, even though he doesn’t believe in this nation or the Constitution?madmonkphotog on December 1, 2009 at 8:40 PM
| 140 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:48:09pm |
re: #131 Walter L. Newton
Now some MSNBC female pundit said this is probably the most intelligent speech the American public has ever heard from a president about war.
We expect nothing less from the best President EVAR!
/
| 141 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:48:23pm |
re: #131 Walter L. Newton
Now some MSNBC female pundit said this is probably the most intelligent speech the American public has ever heard from a president about war.
I have to say it was pretty good. I'd like to hear some valid criticism of it, because I don't have any.
| 142 |
Right Way Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:48:43pm |
Right makes right? Did he really say that? Who writes this crap?
| 143 |
arethusa Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:48:45pm |
re: #110 Cheechako
Having a withdrawal date for the end of 2011 is going to make the Presidential debates in the fall of 2011 very interesting.
If he does get all the troops out in 2011 or even start the process and things have gone well it won't be an issue in 2012.
| 144 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:48:53pm |
re: #131 Walter L. Newton
Now some MSNBC female pundit said this is probably the most intelligent speech the American public has ever heard from a president about war.
Bunch of lying assholes. Still in the tank for BHO. LameStream Media indeed.
| 145 |
MandyManners Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:48:55pm |
re: #131 Walter L. Newton
Now some MSNBC female pundit said this is probably the most intelligent speech the American public has ever heard from a president about war.
Better than the Gettysburg Address?
Nuts. Just nuts.
| 146 |
doubter4444 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:48:56pm |
re: #123 drpangloss
let's see NOTUS (narcissist of the united states) asks for 30,000 which is 25% less than the General requested.
by the time they get there - they will be withdrawn.
took 3 months to make up his mind. reminds me of the anecdote about adlai stevenson in the best and the brightest. he asks his adviser if he has time to go to the bathroom. the adviser says yes. adlai says "yes but do i want to go?"
the setting of a timeline only gives ammo to our enemies.
in sum, as lame as the applause.
this is a failed presidency.
oh fuck off with your snark. like NOTUS, you think that's even mildly witty?
Tool.
| 147 |
captdiggs Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:49:16pm |
re: #124 Walter L. Newton
Chrissy Mathews is complaining that the cadets looked bored.
I bet his leg was "tingling" though.
| 148 |
Sharmuta Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:49:25pm |
re: #107 lawhawk
Japan has recently added more monetary support:
Japan Pledges $5 Billion in New Afghan Aid
I think there is a real push on the part of the international community to get the Afghans on their feet, and I'm very glad. It's important they know we'll leave their country to them, and more important we give them the help they need to take care of themselves.
| 149 |
Right Way Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:49:30pm |
re: #142 Right Way
Actually he said "Right makes might" which is worst.
| 150 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:49:41pm |
re: #141 Racer X
that he cobbled it together in 5 minutes before he went on air because he sooo totally wasn't doing anything for the last three months on the topic...
| 151 |
HelloDare Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:49:48pm |
re: #131 Walter L. Newton
Now some MSNBC female pundit said this is probably the most intelligent speech the American public has ever heard from a president about war.
So I guess, at the beginning of our involvement in WWII, Roosevelt should have given a speech that said if we don't defeat the Germans and the Japanese by the end of 1943, we'll withdraw all our troops.
| 152 |
arethusa Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:49:56pm |
re: #142 Right Way
Right makes right? Did he really say that? Who writes this crap?
His regular speechwriter is under 30 and makes something like 170K a year.
| 153 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:50:07pm |
re: #128 brookly red
the enemy knows that too...
We've been at the war for eight years, I would not support endless one. Give the Afgans a few years to step up to the plate, kill as many bad guys as possible and make the country stand up for itself.
| 154 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:50:14pm |
re: #115 Walter L. Newton
That's my point. I am disappointed in Obama, he played the progressive card just to get elected and now he is telling his far left base to go to hell.
Their damn lookout. Sorry, but I deal with these people regularly, and if they were delusional enough to buy the package...well, they can drop dead. We could have had Hillary Clinton if they hadn't gotten all fired up.
| 155 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:50:17pm |
re: #141 Racer X
I didn't get a sense of urgency out of it. It felt more like a campaign than a war speech.
| 156 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:50:19pm |
re: #148 Sharmuta
Japan has recently added more monetary support:
Japan Pledges $5 Billion in New Afghan Aid
I think there is a real push on the part of the international community to get the Afghans on their feet, and I'm very glad. It's important they know we'll leave their country to them, and more important we give them the help they need to take care of themselves.
that's darn good news...where the hell is the rest of the world?
| 157 |
lawhawk Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:50:22pm |
re: #139 Killgore Trout
So, the poll is thus far showing a plurality approves, and that a significant portion can't quite make up their mind.
I guess maybe they like the idea of a timetable to bring home the troops and are conflicted that it comes with a short term increase in troops.
| 158 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:50:29pm |
re: #11 Racer X
The left will go apeshit over this speech.
Which left? "Th left" meaning real people, or "the left" meaning some frankenstein concoction of Cindy Sheehan with Michael Moore's head?
I'm left and I think it's a good speech.
| 159 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:50:36pm |
re: #148 Sharmuta
Japan has recently added more monetary support:
Japan Pledges $5 Billion in New Afghan Aid
I think there is a real push on the part of the international community to get the Afghans on their feet, and I'm very glad. It's important they know we'll leave their country to them, and more important we give them the help they need to take care of themselves.
5 billion is gas money for a month...
| 161 |
MandyManners Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:51:00pm |
re: #142 Right Way
Right makes right? Did he really say that? Who writes this crap?
| 162 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:51:02pm |
re: #148 Sharmuta
Japan has recently added more monetary support:
Japan Pledges $5 Billion in New Afghan Aid
I think there is a real push on the part of the international community to get the Afghans on their feet, and I'm very glad. It's important they know we'll leave their country to them, and more important we give them the help they need to take care of themselves.
5 Billion pledged equals 3.5 billion actually doing anything. The rest will simply be stolen.
| 163 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:51:25pm |
re: #131 Walter L. Newton
Now some MSNBC female pundit said this is probably the most intelligent speech the American public has ever heard from a president about war.
Cable news is bad for you. :)
| 164 |
Sharmuta Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:51:36pm |
re: #139 Killgore Trout
That's a close margin at kos, though. I bet an LGF poll would show us as more supportive than that.
| 165 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:51:38pm |
re: #124 Walter L. Newton
Chrissy Mathews is complaining that the cadets looked bored.
I think they're not really encouraged to show a lot of emotion while in uniform. What does he want?
| 166 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:51:47pm |
re: #141 Racer X
I have to say it was pretty good. I'd like to hear some valid criticism of it, because I don't have any.
Shoulda been made in August or September, sounds too much like he's still campaigning and I'm not liking what I heard about a timetable.
That is all.
| 167 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:51:49pm |
re: #152 arethusa
His regular speechwriter is under 30 and makes something like 170K a year.
Nice work if you can get it.
| 168 |
austin_blue Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:51:58pm |
re: #123 drpangloss
let's see NOTUS (narcissist of the united states) asks for 30,000 which is 25% less than the General requested.
by the time they get there - they will be withdrawn.
took 3 months to make up his mind. reminds me of the anecdote about adlai stevenson in the best and the brightest. he asks his adviser if he has time to go to the bathroom. the adviser says yes. adlai says "yes but do i want to go?"
the setting of a timeline only gives ammo to our enemies.
in sum, as lame as the applause.
this is a failed presidency.
If Obama walked across the Potomac, you'd yell "He's too lazy to swim!"
The situation in Afghanistan is directly attributable to the fact that we used our resources, instead of bolstering the fight against Al Queda and the Taliban, to invading Iraq, a country that, geopolitcally, was firmly under the Wests' thumb.
| 169 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:52:00pm |
re: #155 TheMatrix31
I didn't get a sense of urgency out of it. It felt more like a campaign than a war speech.
Yep. A little too campaigny for me, but otherwise it was not that bad. He could have thrown a few more troops to insure success, but I'll take the 30k
| 170 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:52:01pm |
re: #141 Racer X
I have to say it was pretty good. I'd like to hear some valid criticism of it, because I don't have any.
It was a little too somber for me, but it is a weighty matter.
| 171 |
Taqyia2Me Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:52:04pm |
I will continue to pray for our president and he and his family's well-being. I will especially pray for our brave men and women of the US Armed Forces as they fight this war that has been long ago declared against us. May God continue to bless America!
| 172 |
MandyManners Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:52:09pm |
re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist
I think they're not really encouraged to show a lot of emotion while in uniform. What does he want?
He wants 'em to tingle!
| 173 |
lawhawk Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:52:18pm |
re: #148 Sharmuta
Money isn't going to get the job done, although that's pretty much all Japan can do under it's constitution. Throwing money at the problem when you have an Afghan government that still deals in corruption and graft isn't going to improve matters.
Boots on the ground is what's needed - and on that point NATO has fallen real short primarily because the Europeans have let their military capabilities atrophy to a troubling degree.
| 174 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:52:28pm |
re: #128 brookly red
the enemy knows that too...
The enemy doesn't much care, in my estimation. The war goes on. They have a whole different timeline.
| 175 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:52:54pm |
re: #130 HelloDare
I guess their legs just weren't tingling.
That's the first leg tingle joke I have ever updinged.
| 176 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:52:54pm |
re: #157 lawhawk
There's been a slow evolution over there regarding the wars since Obama came into office. They're becoming more support and the right is becoming less supportive. I think Beck telling troops to not reenlist is accelerating the trend on the right.
| 177 |
armylaw Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:52:58pm |
re: #123 drpangloss
let's see NOTUS (narcissist of the united states) asks for 30,000 which is 25% less than the General requested.
by the time they get there - they will be withdrawn.
took 3 months to make up his mind. reminds me of the anecdote about adlai stevenson in the best and the brightest. he asks his adviser if he has time to go to the bathroom. the adviser says yes. adlai says "yes but do i want to go?"
the setting of a timeline only gives ammo to our enemies.
in sum, as lame as the applause.
this is a failed presidency.
Hey, fucktard. The "Narcissist of the United States" is Mr. President to you. Show a little respect.
| 178 |
Racer X Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:53:04pm |
re: #158 WindUpBird
Which left? "Th left" meaning real people, or "the left" meaning some frankenstein concoction of Cindy Sheehan with Michael Moore's head?
I'm left and I think it's a good speech.
Yes, that left.
| 179 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:53:10pm |
re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist
The enemy doesn't much care, in my estimation. The war goes on. They have a whole different timeline.
Generations.
| 180 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:53:22pm |
re: #139 Killgore Trout
Knowing what you know now about U.S. plans for Afghanistan?
I support the President's decision to send 30,000 more troops.
43% 190 votes
I oppose the President's decision to send 30,000 more troops.
39% 174 votes
I have not yet made up my mindKos hasn't told me what I should think yet.
16% 73 votes
No opinion
2% 7 votes
Fixed that for ya.
| 181 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:53:33pm |
re: #153 avanti
We've been at the war for eight years, I would not support endless one. Give the Afgans a few years to step up to the plate, kill as many bad guys as possible and make the country stand up for itself.
they stood up for themselves pretty good against the Russians...
| 182 |
arethusa Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:53:39pm |
re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist
I think they're not really encouraged to show a lot of emotion while in uniform. What does he want?
I saw a few cadets who actually looked asleep (I assume they weren't). But, you know, I like the speeches when audiences don't jump up and applaud every two sentences. I can't stand the State of the Union because of that.
| 184 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:53:56pm |
re: #166 Fenway_Nation
Shoulda been made in August or September, sounds too much like he's still campaigning and I'm not liking what I heard about a timetable.
That is all.
I didn't like the way he felt compelled to bring up domestic issues in the speech and I hated the way he did not use the words 'terrorist' or 'Radical Islam'. He won't name the enemy, and that facts hurts us.
| 185 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:53:57pm |
| 186 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:53:58pm |
re: #162 Dark_Falcon
5 Billion pledged equals 3.5 billion actually doing anything. The rest will simply be stolen.
That's one thing I like about the new plan, spending the money at the local level and not writing a check to a corrupt government.
| 187 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:53:59pm |
| 188 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:54:01pm |
re: #164 Sharmuta
That's a close margin at kos, though. I bet an LGF poll would show us as more supportive than that.
Probably. I'd be more interested to see a poll from Hot Air of Fox News Viewers.
| 189 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:54:17pm |
re: #131 Walter L. Newton
Now some MSNBC female pundit said this is probably the most intelligent speech the American public has ever heard from a president about war.
Really? Wow. Tell it to the Marines.
| 190 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:54:22pm |
| 191 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:54:25pm |
re: #185 WindUpBird
whoops, that certainly wasn't to Charles. Eek. ._.
| 193 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:54:54pm |
re: #184 Dark_Falcon
If we don't articulate the enemy, we do not know the enemy. If we do not know the enemy, we lose to the enemy.
| 194 |
Digital Display Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:55:17pm |
re: #170 avanti
It was a little too somber for me, but it is a weighty matter.
Yea..He really rallied the country tonight to defeat our enemies...
I'd rather have sat through a econ 101 class...
Professor Obama leads our country to victory..
Jeesh
| 195 |
armylaw Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:55:17pm |
re: #187 TheMatrix31
Besides, last night, we learned what calling him a narcissist REALLY means.
//
Someone who disagrees with my brand of right wing ideology?
| 196 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:55:31pm |
re: #173 lawhawk
Money isn't going to get the job done, although that's pretty much all Japan can do under it's constitution. Throwing money at the problem when you have an Afghan government that still deals in corruption and graft isn't going to improve matters.
Boots on the ground is what's needed - and on that point NATO has fallen real short primarily because the Europeans have let their military capabilities atrophy to a troubling degree.
35k is not enough...nor 40k...the whole country needs to go into total lockdown, then hunt/kill relentlessly...the timetable thing ices the whole deal imo...won't work
| 197 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:55:37pm |
re: #178 Racer X
Yes, that left.
That left should join up with "that right" and take a hike so the middle can live in peace.
| 198 |
austin_blue Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:55:55pm |
re: #142 Right Way
Right makes right? Did he really say that? Who writes this crap?
No, he said that "right makes might".
| 200 |
brent Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:56:05pm |
They stood up pretty well against the Russians because we gave them stingers to shoot down the their helicopters and planes. It could have been a much different story if the Russians ruled the skies.
| 201 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:56:15pm |
| 202 |
HelloDare Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:56:17pm |
re: #164 Sharmuta
That's a close margin at kos, though. I bet an LGF poll would show us as more supportive than that.
"We will go forward with the confidence that right makes might ..."
That line was worth ten points in the Kos poll.
| 203 |
Varek Raith Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:56:19pm |
| 204 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:56:29pm |
re: #180 Fenway_Nation
I think a lot of Koskidz are in transition from the fantasy progressive world view into something more realistic. The burden of leadership from Obama means that he has to be more practical and the koskidz are slowly adjusting to the burden of leadership.
| 205 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:56:39pm |
re: #176 Killgore Trout
There's been a slow evolution over there regarding the wars since Obama came into office. They're becoming more support and the right is becoming less supportive. I think Beck telling troops to not reenlist is accelerating the trend on the right.
you need to cheerlead a war along, not go into a months long seclusion...BO knows that
| 206 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:57:03pm |
re: #186 avanti
That's one thing I like about the new plan, spending the money at the local level and not writing a check to a corrupt government.
That is actually a good thing. That's why it'll be 3.5 Billion getting through instead of 2.5. Less will be stolen and that is a good thing.
| 208 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:57:36pm |
re: #195 armylaw
Someone who disagrees with my brand of right wing ideology?
Where have you been? Narccisist = 'uppity'.
/DUH!
| 209 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:57:42pm |
re: #68 Charles
It's like "freedom fries" all over again. Obsessing over the most pointless minutae, I just don't understand how people think that way. It's like they're aliens. Or hallucinating.
| 210 |
MandyManners Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:57:44pm |
| 211 |
Sharmuta Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:01pm |
re: #173 lawhawk
Money isn't going to get the job done, although that's pretty much all Japan can do under it's constitution. Throwing money at the problem when you have an Afghan government that still deals in corruption and graft isn't going to improve matters.
Boots on the ground is what's needed - and on that point NATO has fallen real short primarily because the Europeans have let their military capabilities atrophy to a troubling degree.
Boots on the ground is what we can do, and since the Japanese can't do that for the Afghanis, I thought the large financial aid package was nice. It's much needed.
| 212 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:02pm |
| 213 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:08pm |
re: #203 Varek Raith
Ronulan Warblimp decloaking off the port bow!
Shields up! Fire the Anti-Bullshit Torpedoes!
| 214 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:13pm |
Now some British dude on MSNBC is saying the whole speech was based around withdrawal, and it was a difficult speech because it's all really about withdrawal.
He keeps stressing that the end date is most important thing about the speech. He's spinning this for the far left.
| 215 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:14pm |
re: #205 albusteve
Bush fought in Afghanistan for 8 years and couldn't finish the job. Give Obama two or three and we'll see how it goes.
| 216 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:36pm |
re: #206 Dark_Falcon
That is actually a good thing. That's why it'll be 3.5 Billion getting through instead of 2.5. Less will be stolen and that is a good thing.
Yep, I recall seeing "bricks" of $100 bills being handed out early in Iraq, and that has just continued.
| 217 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:37pm |
re: #193 TheMatrix31
If we don't articulate the enemy, we do not know the enemy. If we do not know the enemy, we lose to the enemy.
Quite Concur!
| 218 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:44pm |
re: #181 brookly red
they stood up for themselves pretty good against the Russians...
That's different. And we're different.
I dunno, my best suggestion before the war started was that we marry the Bush girls off to Afghan warlords' sons and ask for Osama's head as a bride price.
They would have had to live in DC, of course.
| 219 |
nickzi Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:46pm |
The right-wing really doesn't have much in the way of analytical thought these days, does it? Obama got this right for the majority of Americans, and the GOP fringe just doesn't get it. The progressives may be mad now, but when healthcare passes and the Iraq draw-down starts, they'll come back. When your choices are: GOP loser, tea-bagging nut-job, pragmatic Democrat Obama, sorry, but they know which side their bread is buttered. Obama will have a jobs bill in the next month or so - and will the GOP dare to vote against it? If they do, they get slaughtered for hating Americans who are out of work. If they don't, their base will go mad because they are appeasing Obama. Pick your poison, children.
| 220 |
Velvet Elvis Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:48pm |
re: #115 Walter L. Newton
That's my point. I am disappointed in Obama, he played the progressive card just to get elected and now he is telling his far left base to go to hell.
He very explicitly ran on "finishing the job" in Afganistan and getting the troops out of Iraq. The base just didn't hear him or thought he was kidding or something. I actually liked that about him. He was a Democrat willing to be a hawk in the primaries. That takes balls.
| 221 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:48pm |
re: #105 wozzablog
Campaign pledge link didn't work first time -
[Link: www.washingtonexaminer.com...]
| 222 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:52pm |
re: #187 TheMatrix31
Besides, last night, we learned what calling him a narcissist REALLY means.
//
Still smarting over that, I see. 9_9 Sorry, Jack. People do use that word as a dog whistle. Believe it or don't.
| 223 |
bosforus Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:58:55pm |
re: #204 Killgore Trout
I think a lot of Koskidz are in transition from the fantasy progressive world view into something more realistic. The burden of leadership from Obama means that he has to be more practical and the koskidz are slowly adjusting to the burden of leadership.
So I guess that means come 2012 everyone will be in agreement.
/
| 224 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:59:30pm |
re: #212 albusteve
snob
Guilty as charged! As Hans Gruber once said: "The benefits of a classical education."
| 225 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:59:48pm |
re: #183 Sharmuta
re: #162 Dark_Falcon
I'm just glad it's others stepping up and chipping in besides us.
Hello! What about the Canucks?
| 226 |
karmic_inquisitor Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:00:15pm |
With this speech Obama has made the full transition to neoconservative.
| 227 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:00:36pm |
re: #224 WindUpBird
Guilty as charged! As Hans Gruber once said: "The benefits of a classical education."
what are you now...a mini Cato?
| 228 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:00:39pm |
re: #220 Conservative Moonbat
He very explicitly ran on "finishing the job" in Afganistan and getting the troops out of Iraq. The base just didn't hear him or thought he was kidding or something. I actually liked that about him. He was a Democrat willing to be a hawk in the primaries. That takes balls.
Yeah, exactly. Anyone who thought Obama was going to immediately pull out of the middle east was high as a kite. One of his CAMPAIGN PROMISES was Afghanistan.
| 229 |
MandyManners Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:00:40pm |
re: #222 WindUpBird
Still smarting over that, I see. 9_9 Sorry, Jack. People do use that word as a dog whistle. Believe it or don't.
I've been using that for over a year.
| 230 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:00:56pm |
| 231 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:01:37pm |
re: #227 albusteve
what are you now...a mini Cato?
It should come as no surprise to you that I often enjoy Cato's comments. 8-)
| 232 |
MandyManners Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:01:42pm |
| 233 |
captdiggs Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:02:18pm |
re: #166 Fenway_Nation
Shoulda been made in August or September, sounds too much like he's still campaigning and I'm not liking what I heard about a timetable.
That is all.
The months long delay was for purely political purposes.
The strategy was self evident months ago with the McChrystal recommendation.
Obama spent these months trying to figure out how to balance his leftist base with the reality of Afghanistan. it was all about how to present it. That was the bulk of the delay.
Meanwhile, if any remember, McChrystal gave a 12 month time frame for a possible failure back in August.
| 234 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:02:18pm |
re: #215 Killgore Trout
Bush fought in Afghanistan for 8 years and couldn't finish the job. Give Obama two or three and we'll see how it goes.
I'm very skeptical about this hole affair now after this summer...I want what's best for the troops and I'm losing interest fast
| 235 |
brookly red Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:02:22pm |
re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist
That's different. And we're different.
I dunno, my best suggestion before the war started was that we marry the Bush girls off to Afghan warlords' sons and ask for Osama's head as a bride price.
They would have had to live in DC, of course.
the Obama girls are closer to the desired age... just saying.
| 236 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:02:25pm |
re: #222 WindUpBird
I'll probably laugh about that one for a long, long, LONG time.
Laughter is the best medicine. To our health, then!
| 237 |
HelloDare Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:02:28pm |
Part of the strategy in Afghanistan is to have enough troops to protect the population. What good is protecting people if they and the enemy know that We will remove our combat brigades from Iraq by the end of next summer
| 239 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:03:27pm |
re: #231 WindUpBird
It should come as no surprise to you that I often enjoy Cato's comments. 8-)
so do I but I won't steal his shtick
| 240 |
mj Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:04:02pm |
Not Nearly Enough On Afghanistan
by Michael Rubin
December 1, 2009
[Link: www.meforum.org...]
...There should be nothing wrong with an open-ended commitment to victory. In late 2006 and early 2007, when the Bush administration put the finishing touches on the strategy that would become the Iraq surge, Obama and many of his top aides questioned its wisdom. On July 19, 2007, for example, Obama declared, "Here's what we know. The surge has not worked." That a year later Obama scrubbed his criticism from his campaign website suggests that today he recognizes the positive impact of George W. Bush's decision. What Obama fails to understand, however, is that the surge is not only a military strategy, but a psychological one as well.
Iraq's surge succeeded because Bush convinced Iraqis that he would not subvert his commitment to victory to politics. Bush's actions showed insurgents had misjudged the U.S. and that Bin Laden was wrong: The U.S. was no paper tiger. Iraqis, no more attracted to al-Qaida's extreme vision than ordinary Afghans are to the Taliban, believed America to be strong. Rather than make accommodations to the terrorists, Iraqis could fight them. The Sunni tribesmen believed that the U.S. would guard their back, and let neither al-Qaida nor Iranian proxies run roughshod over them. For Iraqis and Afghans, it is an easy decision to ally with militarily superior forces led by a commander-in-chief with a clear and demonstrable will to victory.
Obama is not Bush. By declaring his commitment finite, he removes the psychological force from his surge. NATO allies, who, because of limits they place on their troops' activities, are hardly dependable on the best days, will understand that absent U.S. commitment, furthering their own commitments is silly. Pakistan will bolster its support for the Taliban. In Islamabad's calculation, militant Islam is a lesser evil than Pashtun nationalism. If Obama is preparing to cut-and-run--which, fairly or unfairly, is how Pakistani generals will read his speech--then strengthening links to the Taliban will make Pakistan the dominant player in post-surge, post-withdrawal Afghanistan. The Taliban, too, will understand that, at best, they need only lay low, perhaps bloodying U.S. troops enough to keep the Afghanistan war unpopular among the Hollywood, university and media sets Obama cares about.
Obama is also wrong to believe that his surge will buy enough time to inject stability into Afghanistan's state or society. His inability to commit to the country's future will lead President Hamid Karzai to resist U.S. demands for reform. Obama's civilian "dream team" has turned into a nightmare. Special Envoy Richard Holbrooke's longing for the spotlight--and desire to create a High Commissioner to administer the country--has made the mercurial Karzai even more resistant to advice...
| 241 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:04:11pm |
re: #235 brookly red
the Obama girls are closer to the desired age... just saying.
This is a political marriage. You get what you get, and you don't get upset, especially when your father is now machetenim to the President of the United States.
| 242 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:05:07pm |
re: #237 HelloDare
but what good is it to them to think that we wil never leave? - that creates resentment and adds to the resentment aready building.
If we never say "you have this long to get your house in order..." - they never will.
| 243 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:05:31pm |
re: #237 HelloDare
Part of the strategy in Afghanistan is to have enough troops to protect the population. What good is protecting people if they and the enemy know that We will remove our combat brigades from Iraq by the end of next summer
Agreed. Still, Iraq has come a long way. It has a good chance of winning without our combat forces, and they want them gone anyway. I wouldn't write them off, though we'll need to wait for the election results to be sure.
| 244 |
brent Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:05:32pm |
/237 protect the people
The same thing happened in Iraq - when the people thought we were going to leave, they protected Al Qaeda. When they really thought we'd stick around long enough to protect them, they started pointing out safe houses. Who would you help out, if you thought one side was already making plans for shipping out?
I'm trying to be positive, it's positive that he said 30K troops.
| 245 |
armylaw Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:05:51pm |
re: #233 captdiggs
The months long delay was for purely political purposes.
The strategy was self evident months ago with the McChrystal recommendation.
Obama spent these months trying to figure out how to balance his leftist base with the reality of Afghanistan. it was all about how to present it. That was the bulk of the delay.
Meanwhile, if any remember, McChrystal gave a 12 month time frame for a possible failure back in August.
Perhaps. Perhaps Obama was trying to avoid another Vietnam. Gen. Westmoreland kept asking for more and more troops to pursue his failed strategy of attrition. One can only wish that LBJ had challenged Westmoreland's assumptions.
Sorely's A Better War is required reading in the Officer corps. Maybe Obama was trying to make sure McChrystal's strategy had a chance of working.
| 246 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:06:50pm |
re: #219 nickzi
Um...yeah...the jobs bill. I'm sure that will be 10 times as effective as the stimulus.
Wait...what's 10 X 0 again?
| 247 |
austin_blue Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:08:08pm |
re: #234 albusteve
I'm very skeptical about this hole affair now after this summer...I want what's best for the troops and I'm losing interest fast
So you sat with your thumb your butt from November '01 to May '09, but the last 5 months have made you lose interest?
Good thing you want what's best for the troops and not be a partisan 'Pub! You and George Will are just peas in a pod, aintcha?
| 248 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:09:03pm |
re: #234 albusteve
I'm very skeptical about this hole affair now after this summer...I want what's best for the troops and I'm losing interest fast
I think it'll be OK. Bush didn't always have the number of troops recommended by the generals either. You don't go to war with the army you want, you go with the army you have.
| 249 |
lawhawk Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:09:04pm |
re: #153 avanti
The Afghans? Which ones - the Pastuns? Uzbeks? Tajiks? And that's not counting tribal affiliations and allegiances. Taliban are Afghans - and they're also Pakistani; it's tribal in nature, and existed long before the modern border lines were drawn. Hektamayar is a Taliban commander and pretty much came out and said that there'd be peace if the country were turned over to him. It's a warlord mentality, and there are plenty of Afghan warlords out there who want their power enhanced.re: #215 Killgore Trout
re: #215 Killgore Trout
During 7 years, Bush managed to prevent al Qaeda from regrouping, and had to deal with a porous border and a Pakistani government that was unable/unwilling/incapable to sustain a fight against the Taliban and al Qaeda. Now, Obama is going through the same things, but has put an end date on it - and given our enemies an idea of what we're willing to endure before quitting.
I see it as a disastrous policy to put on the table exactly what we're going to do and to telegraph our intentions.
You think that Russia or China or Iran isn't watching this with bemusement knowing that they can screw with the US and know that we're contemplating timelines and withdrawals and all the rest? They are. They're watching and they're waiting for their opportunities to take advantage of the US. So too is al Qaeda and the Taliban.
| 250 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:09:15pm |
re: #219 nickzi
Um...yeah...the jobs bill. I'm sure that will be 10 times as effective as the stimulus.
Wait...what's 10 X 0 again?
| 251 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:10:48pm |
Dang...double-post.
Feel free to delete #250...such a nice round number, too.
| 252 |
austin_blue Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:12:56pm |
re: #251 Fenway_Nation
Dang...double-post.
Feel free to delete #250...such a nice round number, too.
Damn. LGF has the hiccups!
| 253 |
JohninLondon Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:14:15pm |
Sure, Obama was very clear in his election campaign that he wanted to concentrate on Afghanistan. When he took office he was given full briefings and re-assessments by the outgoing administration. His own general-on-the-spot then made clear recommentdations.
So the question remains - why on earth take so long to announce tonight's decisions ? Which of those decisions could not have been taken months' ago ?It is now too late to get any more of the asked-for troops out there before next year.
There has been the impression of vacillation, to placate the base or whatever, now compounded by unnecessary talk of an exit timetable for Iraq that looks dangerous.
And not really enough fire in the speech ? enough to get Americans solidly behind the effort ? And enough to tell the Taliban and people taking their side that they are on a hiding-to-nothing ? Enough to persaude local Afghans in or near war zones that they can feel safer ?
I fear not, it was hardly a rousing performance.
| 254 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:14:28pm |
re: #248 Killgore Trout
I think it'll be OK. Bush didn't always have the number of troops recommended by the generals either. You don't go to war with the army you want, you go with the army you have.
Four-stars know how to make an opening bid.
| 255 |
albusteve Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:15:30pm |
re: #247 austin_blue
So you sat with your thumb your butt from November '01 to May '09, but the last 5 months have made you lose interest?
Good thing you want what's best for the troops and not be a partisan 'Pub! You and George Will are just peas in a pod, aintcha?
5 months is a long time...fight it to win, no matter how long or pull out
| 256 |
avanti Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:19:59pm |
re: #181 brookly red
they stood up for themselves pretty good against the Russians...
Russia was the occupier, now some feel we are. In some areas, they really like the Taliban. (sadly)
| 257 |
bratwurst Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:20:56pm |
re: #253 JohninLondon
So the question remains - why on earth take so long to announce tonight's decisions ? Which of those decisions could not have been taken months' ago ?It is now too late to get any more of the asked-for troops out there before next year.
.
Guess you missed the part when he explained that.
| 258 |
cheechako Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:31:08pm |
I wonder if President Obama plays Texas Hold 'Em with his hole cards showing?
| 259 |
austin_blue Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:34:18pm |
re: #255 albusteve
5 months is a long time...fight it to win, no matter how long or pull out
Five months after 90 months of dithering? Come on!
| 260 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:35:53pm |
re: #68 Charles
The #tcot list at Twitter is full of comments like this:
what's with The Obama pronouncing it "tah-lee-bahn"? Bootlicking our enemy or is he trying to show how intellectual he is?
Yes, proper pronunciation is evidence of how evil Obama is.
Heck, I bet he even knows that "Taliban" is plural, and therefore that John Walker Lindh was not and could never be "the American Taliban", but just an American Talib.
You know what, I bet he even knows the word means nothing more than "student".
Evidence of pallin' around with terrorists, you betcha, wink!
| 261 |
Sharmuta Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:38:50pm |
re: #259 austin_blue
We didn't "dither". That's a very unfair assessment in my opinion. It's only recently that the public opinion in Pakistan has turned against al-qaeda. That has been the key development that will allow us to win.
| 262 |
borgcube Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:40:45pm |
Chris Matthews, you're a fucking asshole.
| 263 |
prairiefire Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:42:36pm |
re: #261 Sharmuta
We siphoned off troops, money, and energy to Iraq. All at a detriment to the effort in Afghanistan.
| 264 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:43:36pm |
re: #263 prairiefire
We siphoned off troops, money, and energy to Iraq. All at a detriment to the effort in Afghanistan.
And for bogus reasons fed by lies and hysteria, and for an outcome that is by no means certain.
| 265 |
austin_blue Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:47:30pm |
re: #261 Sharmuta
We didn't "dither". That's a very unfair assessment in my opinion. It's only recently that the public opinion in Pakistan has turned against al-qaeda. That has been the key development that will allow us to win.
Maybe. The Al Queda presence in Afghanistan has been estimated at less than a hundred fighters for years. What we are dealing with in Afghanistan is not so much "Nationalism" against the invader as "Valleyism" among small tribal groups in individual valleys and sectors. The Taliban have been able to exploit the vacuum of a lack of security (not enough boots on the ground since '01, and a horrifically weak and corrupt central government) to exploit individual tribal groups through intimidation and violence to establish a presence.
We are paying for the benign neglect of this country that was guaranteed by our little adventure in Iraq. If we had kept our eyes on the prize (destroying Al Queda and marginalizing the Taliban with a strong alternative central government), we would not be where we are today.
So, yes, I think dithering is a fair critique.
| 266 |
What, me worry? Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:54:04pm |
re: #249 lawhawk
So are you saying this is the next 100 year war? Or how many more years do you think the American public support it?
You're not going to change the demography. Nor do I get a warm fuzzy about "nation building". It would be enough if they could police themselves to keep Al-Queda/Taliban out, locked up or killed.
Then you have the poppy/opium trade which I understand is very much active. And the brutalization of women and children is still going on. What are the solutions?
Why didn't Bush foresee this happening? I have an article where Sharon told him to forget the whole thing despite the threat Iraq was to the world.
According to both sources, Sharon warned Bush that if he insisted on occupying Iraq, he should at least abandon his plan to implant democracy in this part of the world. “In terms of culture and tradition, the Arab world is not built for democratization,” Ayalon recalls Sharon advising. Be sure, Sharon added, not to go into Iraq without a viable exit strategy.
Read the whole thing. Good advice, but unheeded.
Obama campaigned on stopping the war. Tomorrow. So the Dems are pissed. But that's rather silly. Bush already had the timeline down, 2011, I thought.
| 267 |
drpangloss Tue, Dec 1, 2009 7:21:58pm |
dumbest line in the speech, referring to 9/11 terrorists "took the lives of innocent men, women, and children without regard to their faith or race or station"
huh?
9/11 was a hate crime. obama mirandizes osama.
i am surprised that the panderer-in-chief didnt say, "Beat NAVY."
being shocked about corruption in the afghani govt? this coming from a man who is from pay to play chicago. from a man walled off from reality by a cabal of chicago politicians. where politics and corruption is tautologic.
| 268 |
SilentAlfa Tue, Dec 1, 2009 7:35:17pm |
re: #267 drpangloss
dumbest line in the speech, referring to 9/11 terrorists "took the lives of innocent men, women, and children without regard to their faith or race or station"
huh?
9/11 was a hate crime. obama mirandizes osama.
i am surprised that the panderer-in-chief didnt say, "Beat NAVY."
being shocked about corruption in the afghani govt? this coming from a man who is from pay to play chicago. from a man walled off from reality by a cabal of chicago politicians. where politics and corruption is tautologic.
the first half of this post doesn't even make sense to me. are you criticizing obama because he acknowledged that our enemy are morally bankrupt, ruthless killers who will stop at nothing to destroy america?
| 269 |
Ben G. Hazi Tue, Dec 1, 2009 7:47:42pm |
re: #131 Walter L. Newton
Now some MSNBC female pundit said this is probably the most intelligent speech the American public has ever heard from a president about war.
Reminds me of the Bill Clinton "power crackles in his jeans" crap...a swooning MFM.
| 270 |
lrsshadow Tue, Dec 1, 2009 9:13:16pm |
It is nice to see him more or less agreeing with McCrystal's assessment. I would have rather seen numbers in the 40-60k rather than the 30k.
All in all it was a good speech.
| 271 |
Silvergirl Tue, Dec 1, 2009 9:19:58pm |
The part that struck me wrong is this:
As President, I have signed a letter of condolence to the family of each American who gives their life in these wars. I have read the letters from the parents and spouses of those who deployed. I visited our courageous wounded warriors at Walter Reed. I've traveled to Dover to meet the flag-draped caskets of 18 Americans returning home to their final resting place. I see firsthand the terrible wages of war. If I did not think that the security of the United States and the safety of the American people were at stake in Afghanistan, I would gladly order every single one of our troops home tomorrow.
Yes, on the surface it looks good. My gut instinct is that he does not see firsthand the terrible wages of war. He has gone through the expected motions as he fulfills his duties as President. When I first saw that he had flown to meet those 18 caskets I thought it was a good thing, then I began to suspect photo op. I don't know, I don't feel his sincerity as I read the words or as I hear them from his mouth. He is trying to convince someone of something here, but I wouldn't think the majority of troops who hear him say that he signs letters of condolence to the families of Americans who give their lives means that he sees firsthand the terrible wages of war.
| 272 |
dugmartsch Tue, Dec 1, 2009 9:23:13pm |
re: #127 albusteve
yup...no conviction for anything...he is far out of his element for running this country
He didn't campaign on an escalation in Afghanistan, or anything. Never said that once, nope. Never, ever, ever said it.
| 273 |
suchislife Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:17:18am |
re: #271 Silvergirl
So when he acknowledges something you agree with, says it's important to him too, then that really means he's a bad person, because you can "feel his insincerity"? In your gut, I presume.
| 274 |
suchislife Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:18:27am |
re: #273 suchislife
Wow I just realized you actually did mention your gut. The psychic gut!
| 275 |
Silvergirl Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:12:18am |
re: #274 suchislife
Wow I just realized you actually did mention your gut. The psychic gut!
I see mockery floats your boat. Yep. I see it with my psychic gut.
Following the directive of the head only (either of them, large or small) is not wisdom. My life has been saved (literally) and my life enriched by that so easily dismissed gut feeling.
| 276 |
What, me worry? Wed, Dec 2, 2009 11:01:39am |
re: #267 drpangloss
dumbest line in the speech, referring to 9/11 terrorists "took the lives of innocent men, women, and children without regard to their faith or race or station"
huh?
9/11 was a hate crime. obama mirandizes osama.
i am surprised that the panderer-in-chief didnt say, "Beat NAVY."
being shocked about corruption in the afghani govt? this coming from a man who is from pay to play chicago. from a man walled off from reality by a cabal of chicago politicians. where politics and corruption is tautologic.
Wow. You really hate the man don't you.
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