Britain Expels ‘Mossad Official’

Middle East • Views: 2,861

Britain has expelled an Israeli diplomat said to be a “a senior Mossad official,” as a response to the use of forged British passports by the hit team that assassinated Hamas commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai. Foreign secretary David Miliband also directly accused Israel of carrying out the killing, saying the passports were copied from real UK passports by Israeli agents.

Al-Mabhouh was a murderous terrorist, no doubt, and no one should weep for him. But Israel seems to have seriously miscalculated the diplomatic fallout from this operation.

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344 comments
1 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 9:59:41am

Seems like the Israelis screwed up on that front.

2 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 9:59:59am

The diplomatic fallout may be bad, but letting terror scum like this live is worse. Israel was right to waste him.

3 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:00:01am

Wow this seems like it has the potential to be a really touchy and difficult to properly comprehend topic for debate.

My plan?

MOAR LURK!

4 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:03:20am

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

The diplomatic fallout may be bad, but letting terror scum like this live is worse. Israel was right to waste him.

We’ll see what happens but an expelled diplomat isn’t really that big of a deal. It makes some headlines but it’s probably not serious. so far it’s the equivalent of a strongly worded letter.

5 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:04:01am

Well they have the brains, they’ll think they’re way out of it I’m sure.

6 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:04:09am

Now if only Dubai could use that same high tech surveillance to give up some intel about the 9/11 terrorists.

Not holding my breath.

7 Summer Seale  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:04:16am

I totally, absolutely, approve of this guy’s assassination.

But damnit, if it was Israel, they royally bungled this, and not just on the diplomatic front. What’s the count now? 26 people for one hit? I don’t get it. Whatever for? All you usually need is a five or six person team at most. From the footage and the numbers, you’d think they were a traveling carnival…

8 pingjockey  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:04:33am

Using Brit passports was probably a bad idea seeing as how the Brits don’t seem to like Israel. That said, terrorists deserve whatever they get. Seeing as how we have an educated bunch here…Why do the British seem to harbor an active dislike for Israel?

9 charles_martel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:05:36am

It’s just the US and Britain putting pressure on Israel regarding their Jerusalem housing expansion. Just more political gamesmanship.

10 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:05:50am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

We’ll see what happens but an expelled diplomat isn’t really that big of a deal. It makes some headlines but it’s probably not serious. so far it’s the equivalent of a strongly worded letter.

It’s basically the next step up from a strongly worded letter, which is to say, nothing serious at all. I do have to wonder if there will be any diplomatic repercussions in the reverse direction should it come out that the Israelis weren’t behind the hit at all. I just have to think the Mossad would not be so clumsy and, well, obvious about it.

11 SpaceJesus  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:06:08am

they should’ve asked british permission first

12 albusteve  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:06:53am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

We’ll see what happens but an expelled diplomat isn’t really that big of a deal. It makes some headlines but it’s probably not serious. so far it’s the equivalent of a strongly worded letter.

the dreaded SWL!….Israel probably has a boxcar full of them…so be it…Britain has a long history of dirt and nefarious activity…the expulsion is all for show imo…they probably shared tea and cigars before he left

13 pingjockey  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:06:59am

re: #10 thedopefishlives
I agree. Isn’t Mossad supposed to be sneakier than this?

14 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:07:01am
The Guardian understands the official is a senior Mossad agent.

How does Al-Guardian *know* this? What’s its source?

15 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:07:05am

re: #8 pingjockey

Using Brit passports was probably a bad idea seeing as how the Brits don’t seem to like Israel. That said, terrorists deserve whatever they get. Seeing as how we have an educated bunch here…Why do the British seem to harbor an active dislike for Israel?

I think a better question seems to be, “Who doesn’t?”

I have noticed a huge increase of anti-zionism / semitism on teh interwebs across the board.

16 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:07:20am

Yes, they should have known that the hostility to Israel in Europe would trigger this kind of blowback. But I’ll bet the attitude around the Mossad water cooler is “better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.”

What am I saying? I am saying that since 11 September anti-Semitism and its open expression has become respectable once more. Not in Germany or Catholic central Europe, but at London dinner tables. […W]e are not only talking about right-wingers here. The liberal establishment, which professes to unsheath its sword at any injustice, has been more anti-Semitic about this whole business than any other political group. One of those crossbench life peers who is never without either a copy of the Guardian or a copy of a human-rights bill told a friend of mine, ‘Well, the Jews have been asking for it, and now, thank God, we can say what we think at last.’

17 Gordon Marock  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:07:35am

First, I am not convinced that Israel did this. Second, if they did, Israel did not miscalculate the reaction, because it is the same reaction we always see from the EU in general, vilification of the evil Jews. Third, it is much more polite to assassinate terrorists quietly so as not to disturb hotel guests in the adjoining room, as opposed to the United States’ continuous and uninterrupted string of assassinations using predator drones, which often result in the adjoining room and its occupants being vaporized.

18 albusteve  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:08:16am

re: #8 pingjockey

Using Brit passports was probably a bad idea seeing as how the Brits don’t seem to like Israel. That said, terrorists deserve whatever they get. Seeing as how we have an educated bunch here…Why do the British seem to harbor an active dislike for Israel?

probably to placate their Muslim community

19 pingjockey  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:08:19am

re: #15 Oh no…Sand People!
Really? I only hang out here and one or two other blogs. Israel is what, smaller than Delaware?

20 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:08:23am

Any MFM raising hell about the 35+/- rocket launches from Hamas since January 1st?

21 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:08:49am

re: #7 Summer

I totally, absolutely, approve of this guy’s assassination.

But damnit, if it was Israel, they royally bungled this, and not just on the diplomatic front. What’s the count now? 26 people for one hit? I don’t get it. Whatever for? All you usually need is a five or six person team at most. From the footage and the numbers, you’d think they were a traveling carnival…

Not really. In movies it’s a lone assassin and a handler but in real life the operations are pretty huge. I would also guess that most of the people involved didn’t even know exactly what they were doing, they just stand there and wait for a certain car to pull up or a phone to ring and that’s all they know.

22 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:09:05am

re: #7 Summer

I totally, absolutely, approve of this guy’s assassination.

But damnit, if it was Israel, they royally bungled this, and not just on the diplomatic front. What’s the count now? 26 people for one hit? I don’t get it. Whatever for? All you usually need is a five or six person team at most. From the footage and the numbers, you’d think they were a traveling carnival…

Yeah, he was no ones idea of a sweetheart that’s for sure but Israel should not have done the deed on British soil. If they had done it here we would have pitched a fit over it too. 26 casualties are way too many, not a good situation all around.

23 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:09:14am

re: #19 pingjockey

Really? I only hang out here and one or two other blogs. Israel is what, smaller than Delaware?

Oh, it’s a question of ‘quality’ versus ‘quantity’. The world apparently hates ‘quality’…but that’s just me.

24 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:09:19am

re: #7 Summer

I totally, absolutely, approve of this guy’s assassination.

But damnit, if it was Israel, they royally bungled this, and not just on the diplomatic front. What’s the count now? 26 people for one hit? I don’t get it. Whatever for? All you usually need is a five or six person team at most. From the footage and the numbers, you’d think they were a traveling carnival…

Well you see they need one guy to fluff the pillows, and another to make sure the lighting is right, one to keep the camera steady, and yet another to clean up after the deed is done…

No wait, that’s filming prono, no idea why you’d need that many to kill someone….

25 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:09:22am

Not sure if Netanyahu considers this brinksmanship, but he is showing himself exceptionally poor at basic diplomacy - forging ahead and explaining yourself very carefully and openly to friends, which is something that projects self-belief where a policy of ambiguity doesn’t. It looks like he has instead had one argument after another and foolishly attempted to isolate American top brass.

At the same time it is very unlikely that this is about British policy alone, and not at all stoked by the tensions between Israel and the Obama line. To my mind Obama is making ridiculously challenging open demands on Israel however much they are technically friends, and this does look like a very disconcerting shift in America’s stance. So Obama is bearing out the fears of many Israelis that he will continue to place all responsibility for all contentious issues at Israel’s feet, and Netanyahu is handling it badly.

26 charles_martel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:09:41am

re: #15 Oh no…Sand People!

Totally agree. The comments on a cnn article on this was rife with virulent antisemitism. There were people calling all Jews “filth”, criminals, and usurers. And the moderators didn’t censor that crap.

27 pingjockey  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:10:47am

Totally OT, the Canadians had to cancel Coulters’ appearance in Canada due to public safety concerns. I like Ann until she goes or did go off the rails but I have to wonder what would’ve happened if it had been a Hamas rep wanting to speak.

28 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:10:54am

Did Thailand raise hell over its citizen killed by that rocket last week?

29 pingjockey  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:11:25am

re: #23 Oh no…Sand People!
Aha. Thanks.

30 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:11:40am

re: #17 Gordon Marock

First, I am not convinced that Israel did this. Second, if they did, Israel did not miscalculate the reaction, because it is the same reaction we always see from the EU in general, vilification of the evil Jews. Third, it is much more polite to assassinate terrorists quietly so as not to disturb hotel guests in the adjoining room, as opposed to the United States’ continuous and uninterrupted string of assassinations using predator drones, which often result in the adjoining room and its occupants being vaporized.

Agreed. They could have used a car bomb or missile strike. There would still be no mystery about who did it and the possibilities of collateral damage could mean real diplomatic troubles. The Israelis probably accounted for a certain amount of publicity and condemnation.

31 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:12:22am

re: #27 pingjockey

Totally OT, the Canadians had to cancel Coulters’ appearance in Canada due to public safety concerns. I like Ann until she goes or did go off the rails but I have to wonder what would’ve happened if it had been a Hamas rep wanting to speak.

So dangerous, so full of hateful potential, that the mere presence of the lady is enough to drive Canadians - a normally peaceful, tolerant bunch, who temper free speech with full respect for others - to acts of violence.

32 lgffan  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:12:36am

I am not convinced that Israel was behind this. Where is the proof?

33 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:12:47am

One thing I do ‘love’ about this is the message it sends to the terrorist vermin:

“We will find you.”

Suck on that terrorist bastards.

34 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:12:52am

re: #26 charles_martel

Totally agree. The comments on a cnn article on this was rife with virulent antisemitism. There were people calling all Jews “filth”, criminals, and usurers. And the moderators didn’t censor that crap.

Those comment must have been left by wingnuts. The left would never leave comments like that.

35 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:12:55am

Congratulations to the IAF for blasting away at that arms depot in Norther Gaza last night!

36 pingjockey  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:13:41am

re: #31 Guanxi88
Ya. She’s turned into a rabble rouser, I have one of her books and it isn’t looney, but it’s also over 5 yrs old.

37 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:14:02am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Not really. In movies it’s a lone assassin and a handler but in real life the operations are pretty huge. I would also guess that most of the people involved didn’t even know exactly what they were doing, they just stand there and wait for a certain car to pull up or a phone to ring and that’s all they know.

While true, it just seems to be a little too clumsy for one of the foremost covert operations and intelligence agencies in the world. If the CIA can do better, then you’d certainly think that the Mossad could, too.

38 pingjockey  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:14:05am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton
Heh.

39 charles_martel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:14:40am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

Uh huh.

40 Spider Mensch  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:14:46am

I’m Alfred E. Israel..what me worry?? this means very little…sometimes you have to crack a few eggs to kill a terrorist… when you really want him gone.

41 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:14:54am

re: #37 thedopefishlives

While true, it just seems to be a little too clumsy for one of the foremost covert operations and intelligence agencies in the world. If the CIA can do better, then you’d certainly think that the Mossad could, too.

Caruso occasionally had a sore throat.

42 Kragar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:15:03am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

Those comment must have been left by wingnuts. The left would never leave comments like that.

The left prefers to use terms like occupier, invader and oppressor when engaging in anti-semitic rants.

43 Summer Seale  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:15:45am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

No I mean, I’m not going by movies but by other operations. In the Eichmann operation, they didn’t have nearly that many, and that was to kidnap a guy alive. 26 people is unheard of, at least from everything I’ve ever read. I really, really, think that whomever did this was screwing up on purpose or there was some other thing going on that we haven’t heard of. It just doesn’t make sense….

I mean, the only time Israel ever used that many people, it was to storm an airport at Entebbe….

44 Gordon Marock  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:16:23am

Even if Israel had proof exonerating themselves, they would likely not put it forth due to their policy of neither confirming nor denying such operations.

45 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:16:27am

Bear in mind that Britain doing nothing could well speak volumes to Dubai and the expelled diplomat is not the ambassador but someone expendable, so there is some proportion, but there is no attempt at all at sympathy for Israel’s position coming from anywhere and that is worrying.

46 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:17:31am

re: #45 Dom

Long time, no see. How are you?

47 pingjockey  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:18:08am

Later folks.

48 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:19:03am

re: #47 pingjockey

Later folks.

Bye P.J., have a good day!

49 charles_martel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:20:19am

I read that Israel allegedly forged passports from France, Germany, and Australia, and that there may be additional diplomatic fallout from those countries as well…..

50 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:21:37am

re: #46 MandyManners

Cool MandyManners and thanks, I’m goodish. The Obama administration has been dealing with some massive domestic issues and the effect on LGF coverage means I’m a little less involved, still love LGF, still thinking fondly of you. Hope all’s well with you two too!

51 Gordon Marock  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:22:04am

re: #49 charles_martel

I read that Israel allegedly forged passports from France, Germany, and Australia, and that there may be additional diplomatic fallout from those countries as well…

The problem with the forged passports, at least for the British ones, is that the numbers were incorrect on the passports. It is hard to believe Mossad would make this kind of mistake which could jeopardize the agents’ escape at the border if the passports were scrutinized.

52 ShaunP  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:22:08am

re: #49 charles_martel

I read that Israel allegedly forged passports from France, Germany, and Australia, and that there may be additional diplomatic fallout from those countries as well…

Link:

[Link: www.heraldsun.com.au…]

53 charles_martel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:24:33am

re: #51 Gordon Marock

I agree. The whole operation looks too compromised to really be Mossad….

54 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:24:55am

re: #22 Dragon_Lady

Yeah, he was no ones idea of a sweetheart that’s for sure but Israel should not have done the deed on British soil. If they had done it here we would have pitched a fit over it too. 26 casualties are way too many, not a good situation all around.

wtf?

You seem misinformed.
1. The alleged “hit” took place in Dubai, not the UK.
2. The 26 people are all alleged members of the “hit team.”
3. There was only 1 casualty (the bad guy.)

55 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:25:01am

re: #50 Dom

Cool MandyManners and thanks, I’m goodish. The Obama administration has been dealing with some massive domestic issues and the effect on LGF coverage means I’m a little less involved, still love LGF, still thinking fondly of you. Hope all’s well with you two too!

The Kid made it through the second round of try outs and is now the pitcher for his Little League team!! I’m doing well, too.

*drift over*

56 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:25:49am

Hey Walter, keep your eye on this. There’s legislation afoot to extend broadband penetration into rural areas. Could be some employment opportunities for you in the offing.

In my southwestern Virginia district, we have firsthand evidence of how broadband access can improve the economic well-being and quality of life for rural residents. With federal funds, a fiber-optic backbone has been built, linking some of our most rural and financially unfortunate communities. Now technology-based employers are moving there because of the data transport that access to the fiber backbone provides. In the town of Lebanon, for example, 700 jobs in software engineering and data center management are powering a 21st-century economy.

57 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:26:08am

Well it seems like the anti-Semites are doing the snoopy dance over the fall out on this thing. I hate to see what those nut cases are going to do next. The more I think about it the less likely it is that Israel is responsible and someone out there did it to implicate them in order to discredit Mossad in the worlds eyes.

58 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:26:57am

re: #53 charles_martel

I agree. The whole operation looks too compromised to really be Mossad…

They’re human. A few years ago a couple of them were nabbed and jailed in New Zealand. In this case, they probably underestimated the smarts of the Dubai cops.

59 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:27:03am

re: #54 Alouette

wtf?

You seem misinformed.
1. The alleged “hit” took place in Dubai, not the UK.
2. The 26 people are all alleged members of the “hit team.”
3. There was only 1 casualty (the bad guy.)

Sorry Alouette, I miss understood the circumstances and reversed the numbers. My bad! Bad Dragon! Bad! :-(

60 sagehen  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:27:36am

I’d have been far more impressed with this operation if it didn’t result in all that videotape…

61 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:29:21am

re: #55 MandyManners

The Kid made it through the second round of try outs and is now the pitcher for his Little League team!! I’m doing well, too.

He’s on track, very chuffed about that!

62 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:29:24am

Someone takes out a truly evil bastard yet outiside of PMW, no one’s bitching about tax dollars from all over the world being used to perpetuate hatred.

Donor organizations to the Palestinian Authority have been challenged for years to prevent their well-intentioned contributions from being directed towards hate promotion by the PA, its institutions and its NGOs.

This advertisement is another example of the misuse of UN funding. An ad by a Palestinian youth organization, PYALARA, which is funded by UNICEF, shows an ax destroying a Star of David. The UNICEF logo is right on the ad. The large Star of David that has been destroyed has on it pictures of stars and stripes, presumably representing the USA, and an additional smaller Star of David.

The organization PYALARA (Palestinian Youth Association for Leadership and Rights Activation) has been funded by UNICEF since the year 2000: “PYALARA has been chosen by UNICEF as a major strategic partner in Palestine.” [PYALARA website]

On the ax that destroys the Star of David is the word: “Boycott!” in the imperative tense. Youth are invited to watch the PA TV program calling for a boycott of Israel. In the program the host acknowledges that they are aware that the boycott is illegal but they have chosen to ignore this:

“We know that the Palestinian Authority is tied to a number of agreements that prohibit it from completely boycotting Israel… we call upon all the youth, to all the residents, to all businesses and stores, to completely boycott the Israeli goods in their stores.”
The program started as follows: “The program Speak Up has decided to dedicate this program to a theme which is a national obligation upon each of us - the topic of boycotting Israel in all ways.”

SNIP

63 charles_martel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:29:31am

According to debka (which may or may not be correct), Obama has just cancelled a shipment of bunker-busters on its way to Israel.

[Link: www.debka.com…]

If true, Obama is really playing hardball with Israel. At exactly the wrong time, too.

64 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:30:11am

re: #61 Dom

He’s on track, very chuffed about that!

He could hardly sleep last night!

65 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:30:44am

re: #60 sagehen

I’d have been far more impressed with this operation if it didn’t result in all that videotape…

All the video tape of random tourists marching back and forth. Big. Fucking. Hairy. Deal.

Where is the surveillance tape of the back stairwell that the real hit team used?

66 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:31:37am

Guess I’ll duck out on the world politics thing and go work on my roses, I’m better at that kind of thing anyway, have fun everyone and Keep Laughing!

67 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:32:00am

re: #63 charles_martel

According to debka (which may or may not be correct), Obama has just cancelled a shipment of bunker-busters on its way to Israel.

[Link: www.debka.com…]

If true, Obama is really playing hardball with Israel. At exactly the wrong time, too.

May be the right time depending on the reasons behind it.

68 gegenkritik  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:32:35am

This is so ridiculous, since it seems that the British Goverment was informed by the Israelis about the Operation before it took place.

69 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:34:33am

There is one issue here that has been overlooked: the British (or any other nation) cannot let another nation, for any reason, forge its passports and expect not to be reprimanded for it.

This. I believe, has little to do with anti-Semitism or appeasing the native Islamic community, it has to do with propriety, sovereignity and diplomatic documents, which belong to the Queen, and the British are rather sticklers for that at times.

70 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:34:54am

Saudi Arabia just busted a big terrorist gang. Over a hundred arrests, weapons cache, cell phones, all those thangs.

71 Spider Mensch  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:35:32am

re: #63 charles_martel

According to debka (which may or may not be correct), Obama has just cancelled a shipment of bunker-busters on its way to Israel.

[Link: www.debka.com…]

If true, Obama is really playing hardball with Israel. At exactly the wrong time, too.

debka…Hey, back that big salt spreader truck up and dump what’s left from this past winter to go along with..well basically anything on the debka page. they’re more wrong than right. the supmarket tabloid of world defense news.

72 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:35:35am

re: #63 charles_martel

According to debka (which may or may not be correct), Obama has just cancelled a shipment of bunker-busters on its way to Israel.

[Link: www.debka.com…]

If true, Obama is really playing hardball with Israel. At exactly the wrong time, too.

Debka is not normally reliable. I doubt Obama would really do that. That would give Glen Beck and co. something real to use in their charges, and he’s be silly to do that.

73 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:36:31am

re: #7 Summer

I totally, absolutely, approve of this guy’s assassination.

But damnit, if it was Israel, they royally bungled this, and not just on the diplomatic front. What’s the count now? 26 people for one hit? I don’t get it. Whatever for? All you usually need is a five or six person team at most. From the footage and the numbers, you’d think they were a traveling carnival…

One theory I heard — assuming it was the Mossad — is that it wasn’t a 26 member team for the assassination. It was actually multiple teams. Mabhouh was there on some sort of business, so there were agents involved for a lot of intelligence gathering. Both collecting documents/papers and identifying/tailing whoever Mabhouh met with.

Personally, I think this is a fairly restrained reaction from Britain, as silly as it is. They could have made a bigger deal, but instead Milliband “asked” the Israelis to remove this guy from their embassy and they agreed. (I read that somewhere — it wasn’t an “expulsion” per se)

74 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:36:57am

re: #68 gegenkritik

This is so ridiculous, since it seems that the British Goverment was informed by the Israelis about the Operation before it took place.

That’s probably true. It seems this was intended as a publicly visible operation and they knew what the political fallout was going to be.

75 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:37:32am

re: #72 Dark_Falcon

Debka is not normally reliable. I doubt Obama would really do that. That would give Glen Beck and co. something real to use in their charges, and he’s be silly to do that.

DEBKA can be very unreliable — but other sources have also said that Obama has not approved any orders for more advanced weaponry than anything Israel already has in its arsenal.

That can be viewed equally as bad.

76 simoom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:37:40am

re: #56 The Sanity Inspector

Hey Walter, keep your eye on this. There’s legislation afoot to extend broadband penetration into rural areas. Could be some employment opportunities for you in the offing.

Here’s the gov website for the National Broadband plan:
[Link: www.broadband.gov…]

You can report broadband dead zones and do speed tests to help them better target broadband infrastructure investment as part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.

77 blueraven  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:37:56am

re: #68 gegenkritik

This is so ridiculous, since it seems that the British Goverment was informed by the Israelis about the Operation before it took place.

That is a very informative article with believable sources. ///

78 charles_martel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:38:30am

re: #72 Dark_Falcon

Debka is not normally reliable. I doubt Obama would really do that. That would give Glen Beck and co. something real to use in their charges, and he’s be silly to do that.

I somehow doubt the the President of the United States decides foreign policy based on Glenn Beck’s response!

79 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:40:08am

re: #75 Joo-LiZ

DEBKA can be very unreliable — but other sources have also said that Obama has not approved any orders for more advanced weaponry than anything Israel already has in its arsenal.

That can be viewed equally as bad.

That I could see him doing. More of the “less weapons, more peace” malarky.

80 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:41:14am

re: #27 pingjockey

It’s the EXACT same crowd that champions free speech for IAW that decided to protest to the point of security concerns against Ann Coulter. The University provost sent her a letter warning her about limits of free speech vs hate speech, etc.

The head of the student union tried to get her to speak off campus.

Right Wing = Hate Speech.
Anti-Israel = Free Speech.

Not that I particularly like Coulter. But the hypocrisy is glaring.

81 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:41:18am

re: #63 charles_martel

According to debka (which may or may not be correct), Obama has just cancelled a shipment of bunker-busters on its way to Israel.

[Link: www.debka.com…]

If true, Obama is really playing hardball with Israel. At exactly the wrong time, too.

The administration said last week that it would not stop the shipments.

82 Ericus58  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:41:46am

First Sergeant Marina Izmailov to Receive a Citation of Excellence from President Shimon Peres

Youtube Video

“First Sergeant Marina Izmailov , a combat soldier in the Oketz canine unit, will appear in the President’s residence to receive a citation of excellence from President Shimon Peres on Israel’s 62nd Independence Day.”

83 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:41:56am

I still think that this operation wasn’t carried out by the Mossad by the PA - Fatah - which happens to have been trained by both the CIA and Mossad to improve security services and thwart terrorism. Fatah has it in for Hamas, so they could have kludged the operation (and is quite plausible).

That isn’t to say that Israel isn’t infalliable when it comes to taking out terrorists. They have missed the mark before, sometimes spectacularly so, but the size of this operation is far larger than others which is yet another reason to discount that Israel was behind the attack.

84 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:42:04am

Israel understands that it is easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. Also, Israel hasn’t stayed around this long by being stupid. If they risked so much to get this guy, they calculated that the “up side” of vaporizing him outweighed the “down side” with its consequences.

85 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:42:24am

In the comments on the Telegraph article (spinoff links) someone has raised the theory that this is a very carefully managed split so that Israel can respond to Iran without dragging it’s friends in. Dunno but it’s interesting. Possibly deluded.

86 theliel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:43:15am

re: #69 ralphieboy

There is one issue here that has been overlooked: the British (or any other nation) cannot let another nation, for any reason, forge its passports and expect not to be reprimanded for it.

This. I believe, has little to do with anti-Semitism or appeasing the native Islamic community, it has to do with propriety, sovereignity and diplomatic documents, which belong to the Queen, and the British are rather sticklers for that at times.

4srs, killing someone while wearing false colours used to be a cause for war.

You’d think that isreal would get it in writing that it was ok to use x passport to whack a guy, it prevents ‘misunderstandings’ like this later.

and I fail to see how kowtowing to Isreal’s every desire is anti-semetic.
What’s best for America may not be the best for Isreal and vice versa, it’s the job of the american government to lookout for us and our concerns, and the job of the other guys to watchout for their interests.


if we had the same interests then we wouldn’t be seperate nations.

87 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:43:41am

re: #85 Dom

In the comments on the Telegraph article (spinoff links) someone has raised the theory that this is a very carefully managed split so that Israel can respond to Iran without dragging it’s friends in. Dunno but it’s interesting. Possibly deluded.

Wouldn’t matter. If Israel acts against Iran, Iran will treat it as a lackey of the entire West no matter what.

88 gegenkritik  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:43:54am

re: #83 lawhawk
FAZ (only in German) also reported that at least two Fatah-agents were involved.

89 jamie  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:44:23am

re: #84 _RememberTonyC

Israel understands that it is easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. Also, Israel hasn’t stayed around this long by being stupid. If they risked so much to get this guy, they calculated that the “up side” of vaporizing him outweighed the “down side” with its consequences.

^^^ What Mr. Conigliaro said. They likely weighed a large number of scenarios, including ones worse than this, and decided that it was worth it. At the end of the day, this will have little to no lasting impact on Jerusalem’s relationship with the West.

90 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:44:40am

re: #86 theliel

4srs, killing someone while wearing false colours used to be a cause for war.

You’d think that isreal would get it in writing that it was ok to use x passport to whack a guy, it prevents ‘misunderstandings’ like this later.

and I fail to see how kowtowing to Isreal’s every desire is anti-semetic.
What’s best for America may not be the best for Isreal and vice versa, it’s the job of the american government to lookout for us and our concerns, and the job of the other guys to watchout for their interests.

if we had the same interests then we wouldn’t be seperate nations.

Nonsense. It’s intelligence work. You think British MI6 uses British passports?

The issue here is not that an intelligence agency used foreign passports. The issue is that it became public knowledge.

91 nyny  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:45:10am

re: #84 _RememberTonyC

read an interesting article on stratfor:
[Link: www.stratfor.com…]
(sorry, you need to create a profile to log on)
That essentially said in most cases assasination is just too costly to be worth it from a purely strategic standpoint. The only case where it may be is if the person has knowledge/skills that are hard to replace and i don’t think that was true in this case.

92 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:45:53am

re: #88 gegenkritik

FAZ (only in German) also reported that at least two Fatah-agents were involved.

Yeah, that is the odd part, if it was really Mossad.

Dubai announced that at least 3 members fled to Iran, and the only people arrested in relation have been Palestinians.

93 charles_martel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:45:58am

Well, there are dozens of sites reporting that Obama blocked the bunker-busters…..

[Link: www.google.com…]

94 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:47:19am

re: #93 charles_martel

Well, there are dozens of sites reporting that Obama blocked the bunker-busters…

[Link: www.google.com…]

Sources for that report are HIGHLY questionable: Debka and World Tribune.

95 harrylook  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:47:56am

Congrats to Israel on a great takedown. Dubai can suck it. And today, so can the UK. A dead terrorist is a good terrorist.

96 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:48:22am

re: #92 Joo-LiZ

Another possibility - is that this was a Fatah-led operation, and Mossad was in support, providing logistics and training, and the Fatah operatives bungled the mission and the Mossad got implicated because of poor spycraft on the part of Fatah and the Mossad agents involved.

97 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:48:39am

If terrorists are willing to put bombs into, quite possibly the GREATEST of Gods creations, boobs, then Israel better step up on Iran.

I mean…to defile boobs.. that’s beyond the pale.

98 theliel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:48:47am

re: #90 Joo-LiZ

Nonsense. It’s intelligence work. You think British MI6 uses British passports?

The issue here is not that an intelligence agency used foreign passports. The issue is that it became public knowledge.

well, as with everything on the grey to black side of things, it’s all about getting caught.

I’m pretty sure everyone uses everyone else’s passports. it’s just, as you said, not usually public.

it’s when things become public that we have a problem. Or you get caught spying / stealing military tech from your allies. Or you blow’d up the wrong guy.


Just because everybody does it, constantly, doesn’t make it not a problem. If what these guys were up to wasn’t soemthing people seriously object to then the entire spooky community wouldn’t be so paranoid.
What they are doing violates laws, treaties etc.
That’s not a moral judgment, just a statement of fact.

Peronsal opinion time - to make an omlette you have to break a few eggs. Sometimes it is perfectly appropriate to serve up omlettes.

99 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:49:28am

Later all.

100 blueraven  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:49:52am

re: #94 Charles

Sources for that report are HIGHLY questionable: Debka and World Tribune.

Stormfront and atlas shrugged. I dont see any really credible sites.

101 sffilk  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:50:14am

re: #8 pingjockey

Using Brit passports was probably a bad idea seeing as how the Brits don’t seem to like Israel. That said, terrorists deserve whatever they get. Seeing as how we have an educated bunch here…Why do the British seem to harbor an active dislike for Israel?

It goes back to the whole “Jews killed Jesus” thing including things like the “Baby Hugh” incident about a thousand years ago.

102 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:50:54am

re: #90 Joo-LiZ

The issue here is not that an intelligence agency used foreign passports. The issue is that it became public knowledge.

Agreed, getting caught out like that has clearly put everyone in a fix.

103 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:50:57am

I have read a lot of commentators around the internet state that Israel is acting in a very “arrogant” manner, thinking they can act with impunity.

I think that is a very dangerous misread of the situation. Israel actually feels quite the opposite. They feel isolated and alone, and have taken to drawing their own red lines and taking care of their own security.

Bibi himself pointed out in his speech that Israel has learned the lessons of Jewish history, that we can rely on nobody but ourselves for our own protection, and I think he meant it.

If the world wants to reign in what they view as an erratic Israel, they need to step up big time on isolating and confronting the threats to Israels security rather than continue to convince Israelis they have to take all matters into their own hands.

104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:51:26am

OT… chill pill

Youtube Video
105 darthstar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:51:46am

re: #90 Joo-LiZ

Nonsense. It’s intelligence work. You think British MI6 uses British passports?

The issue here is not that an intelligence agency used foreign passports. The issue is that it became public knowledge.

Exactly. They got caught. No big deal. They’ll replace their expelled official with another and it’ll be business as usual.

106 theliel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:52:13am

re: #95 harrylook

Congrats to Israel on a great takedown. Dubai can suck it. And today, so can the UK. A dead terrorist is a good terrorist.

Yha, they should totally sit back and think of mecca while agents of foreign powers kill people. I mean, it’s like they expect to be treated as a soverign nation or something. I mean, we’re only killing the bad people right?

jeez…you’d better get that American exceptionalism looked at.

107 charles_martel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:52:30am

re: #94 Charles

Sources for that report are HIGHLY questionable: Debka and World Tribune.

True, many of them are wingnut sites…..

108 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:53:06am

re: #103 Joo-LiZ

Whats wrong with acting like a sovereign state?

Seriously. I’d like to understand.

109 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:53:10am

re: #85 Dom

In the comments on the Telegraph article (spinoff links) someone has raised the theory that this is a very carefully managed split so that Israel can respond to Iran without dragging it’s friends in. Dunno but it’s interesting. Possibly deluded.

I’ve been toying with that theory for a week or so.

110 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:53:16am

re: #107 charles_martel

True, many of them are wingnut sites…

Why post it if you know this already?

111 nyny  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:54:18am

re: #106 theliel

OK, maybe they can help get rid of these crazies then?

112 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:54:24am

re: #103 Joo-LiZ

I have read a lot of commentators around the internet state that Israel is acting in a very “arrogant” manner, thinking they can act with impunity.

I think that is a very dangerous misread of the situation. Israel actually feels quite the opposite. They feel isolated and alone, and have taken to drawing their own red lines and taking care of their own security.

Bibi himself pointed out in his speech that Israel has learned the lessons of Jewish history, that we can rely on nobody but ourselves for our own protection, and I think he meant it.

If the world wants to reign in what they view as an erratic Israel, they need to step up big time on isolating and confronting the threats to Israels security rather than continue to convince Israelis they have to take all matters into their own hands.

Yeah, as if Saudi Arabia is anyone to talk about arrogance.

113 jaunte  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:54:40am

re: #106 theliel

Yha, they should totally sit back and think of mecca while agents of foreign powers kill people. I mean, it’s like they expect to be treated as a soverign nation or something. I mean, we’re only killing the bad people right?

jeez…you’d better get that American exceptionalism looked at.

Israel, Dubai, Britain…What does American exceptionalism have to do with the topic?

114 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:55:00am

OT, but Related:

Things in Nigeria seem to be still getting worse:

Nigeria: Islamic Zealots Seek Wider War

March 24, 2010: Religious tensions continue to grow in the Moslem north. This is complicated by most of the Moslem majority states in the north adopting Sharia (Islamic) law. This has led to violence, as lifestyle police have been more active enforcing lifestyle rules stipulated in Islamic law. But now the Sharia courts have gone online, issuing a decree banning Moslems from participating in online chats and message boards criticizing the recent (and first) amputation of a thief’s hand. A lot more of these amputations were expected in the north, because of the Sharia law being adopted. But there was much public anger against such punishments, and the Sharia court in the city of Kaduna saw that anger being stoked in certain online venues. The court can arrest and punish anyone in Kaduna, who has been caught online disobeying the ban. But the main effect of the ban is to increase resistance online, and throughout Nigeria, to Sharia law and religious intolerance. Meanwhile, Islamic websites are featuring more videos calling for religious war in Nigeria, and forcible conversion of that half of the population that is not Moslem.

HASAN CHOP!

115 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:55:04am

re: #90 Joo-LiZ

Nonsense. It’s intelligence work. You think British MI6 uses British passports?

The issue here is not that an intelligence agency used foreign passports. The issue is that it became public knowledge.

Exactly: Jerry Hall was certainly aware what Mick Jagger was doing on tour, but once Mick’s tryst with that Brazilian model hit the tabloids, she could no longer ignore it and sued for divorce

116 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:55:37am

re: #108 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Whats wrong with acting like a sovereign state?

Seriously. I’d like to understand.

Oh nothing at all. Don’t get me wrong.

I’m just pointing out the flaw in the logic of those in the West who think that the way to “control” Israel is to “punish” her.

117 yenta-fada  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:57:19am

re: #16 The Sanity Inspector

The level of anti-semitism on the financial blogs I follow has gone up considerably with the downturn in the economy. Goldman Sachs, J.P.Morgan, Lehman Brothers, the Fed, etc. have a number of prominent Jewish names in their management. It feeds into the canard that the Rothschilds and the evil Jooooos control all the money. These people massively continue to believe that 9/11 was a Mossad operation. There is no reasoning involved, just an outpouring of old hatreds. As the economy goes down, the Jew hatred goes up internationally. Brits didn’t come to this ‘position’ overnight.

118 charles_martel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:57:39am

re: #110 thedopefishlives

Why post it if you know this already?

I am not familiar with wingnut websites by name. I don’t go there.

119 theliel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:57:40am

re: #113 jaunte

Israel, Dubai, Britain…What does American exceptionalism have to do with the topic?

Essentially a statement that ‘x can suck it, we’ll kill who we want’ is typically issued by those who’d throw multi-page shitfits if, say, china started killing ‘terrorists’ in the united states…

It’s moral relativism and arrogance at it’s worst

120 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:57:42am

rire: #114 Dark_Falcon

OT, but Related:

Things in Nigeria seem to be still getting worse:

Nigeria: Islamic Zealots Seek Wider War

HASAN CHOP!

A Sharia court in Nigeria has forbidden human rights groups from using Twitter and Facebook to discuss amputation for minor crimes because it might “mock” Islam.

121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:58:00am

re: #108 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Whats wrong with acting like a sovereign state?

Especially if you are a sovereign state.

Seriously. I’d like to understand.

little addition…

122 theliel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 10:59:29am

re: #119 theliel

Essentially a statement that ‘x can suck it, we’ll kill who we want’ is typically issued by those who’d throw multi-page shitfits if, say, china started killing ‘terrorists’ in the united states…

It’s moral relativism and arrogance at it’s worst

which is to say instead of ‘dubi can suck it’ if they’d said instead ‘it sucks that we had to piss all over dubi to kill this motherfucker, but that’s what happens sometimes, and they’ve a right to be good and pissed off, but we’re still not sorry.’

123 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:00:00am

re: #119 theliel

Essentially a statement that ‘x can suck it, we’ll kill who we want’ is typically issued by those who’d throw multi-page shitfits if, say, china started killing ‘terrorists’ in the united states…

It’s moral relativism and arrogance at it’s worst

Do you or do you not believe that there is real evil stalking this world?

124 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:00:21am

re: #121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

little addition…

You might hurt someone’s feewings.

125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:00:36am

re: #116 Joo-LiZ

Oh, of course. I just don’t understand.

I guess if you gets the goodies from Uncle Sam, Uncle Sam wants you to be his bitch.

Gentile boy, just doesn’t understand this topic very well; wants to learn.

126 harrylook  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:00:51am

re: #106 theliel

LOL. I guess Pakistan can say the same thing about America. Terrorists should know they are vulnerable anywhere. If that insults your sensibilities, I don’t give a shit.

127 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:01:34am

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I’m not entirely sure what you are trying to say here….

128 Macha  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:01:47am

re: #83 lawhawk

The number of times they were filmed also makes me question who actually did it. I can’t imagine the perps not knowing they were on camera as much as they were. It was just a bit too obvious and intentional.

129 darthstar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:03:03am

On to the subject of domestic terror…it appears that the Teabagger who posted the address of US Rep Tom Perillo’s brother (then refused to take it down, calling it ‘collateral damage’) is now shocked, SHOCKED! that someone would actually go to the Representative’s brother’s house and sever the gas line leading into their home.

Danville Tea Party leader Nigel Coleman was one of the two activists who posted Bo Perriello’s address online Monday.

“This is Rep. Thomas Stuart Price Perriello’s home address,” Coleman wrote Monday. “… I ain’t holding back anymore!!”

According to the Politico Web site, when Coleman learned that the address actually belonged to the congressman’s brother, he responded on a blog: “Do you mean I posted his brother’s address on my Facebook? Oh well, collateral damage.”

Coleman told The Daily Progress today that he is “shocked” and “almost speechless” at the possibility that someone would sever the propane line to Perriello’s brother’s house.

Inciting violence is against the law, asshole.

130 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:03:08am

Of course it couldn’t be the Mossad because they’re too smart to get caught. It must be PA or Fatah.

SNEAKY, SNEAKY, MOSSAD!

131 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:03:26am

re: #120 MandyManners

A Sharia court in Nigeria has forbidden human rights groups from using Twitter and Facebook to discuss amputation for minor crimes because it might “mock” Islam.

Yes indeed. No concern over how brutal things are, since the brutality is ‘divinely sanctioned’. Just focusing on how to keep people from criticizing them. Such is the way of Sharia courts the world over.

132 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:03:47am

re: #129 darthstar

Scary, scary stuff

133 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:04:30am

re: #119 theliel

Essentially a statement that ‘x can suck it, we’ll kill who we want’ is typically issued by those who’d throw multi-page shitfits if, say, china started killing ‘terrorists’ in the united states…

It’s moral relativism and arrogance at it’s worst

No one except you seems to be mourning the deceased Islamofascist terrorist. Israel had every right to bring the fuckwad to justice.

134 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:04:42am

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

Yes indeed. No concern over how brutal things are, since the brutality is ‘divinely sanctioned’. Just focusing on how to keep people from criticizing them. Such is the way of Sharia courts the world over.

And, Venezuela which recently arrested yet another critic and is keeping a pissed-off farmer in a mental asylum.

135 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:04:53am

re: #78 charles_martel

The other theory is they are positioned for us to use on Iran. As credible as that may be or not.

136 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:05:54am

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, of course. I just don’t understand.

I guess if you gets the goodies from Uncle Sam, Uncle Sam wants you to be his bitch.

Gentile boy, just doesn’t understand this topic very well; wants to learn.

What’s this “Gentile boy” shit?

137 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:06:09am

re: #129 darthstar

On to the subject of domestic terror…it appears that the Teabagger who posted the address of US Rep Tom Perillo’s brother (then refused to take it down, calling it ‘collateral damage’) is now shocked, SHOCKED! that someone would actually go to the Representative’s brother’s house and sever the gas line leading into their home.

Inciting violence is against the law, asshole.

He doesn’t care. In his mind, the ends justify the means. He probably railed against Bill Ayers in 2008, but now he has become Bill Ayers by walking the same “anything to win” path. That’s a bad path to take and once you start inciting violence, you start becoming a monster.

138 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:06:10am

re: #8 pingjockey

Using Brit passports was probably a bad idea seeing as how the Brits don’t seem to like Israel. That said, terrorists deserve whatever they get. Seeing as how we have an educated bunch here…Why do the British seem to harbor an active dislike for Israel?

I reject the premise - britain is just about the EU’s strongest supporter of Israel.

A lot of british soliders were in PAlestine durng the mandate - so we have ties in the region to that and well before.

BRitain holds it’s diplomatic corps in very high regard and the british passport is equivalent to how the USA feels about it’s flag. For our passports to be misappropriated for these or any purposes does make us a shade annoyed.

If it hadn’t been such a bungled op and the only trace left were british passports………. - see where that goes?

139 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:06:19am

re: #135 Rightwingconspirator

The other theory is they are positioned for us to use on Iran. As credible as that may be or not.

Are you talking about the ones recently shipped to Diego Garcia?

140 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:06:40am

re: #127 Joo-LiZ

I am not sure either. I am trying to learn about what is going on over there.

How often do we meet with world leaders without photo ops? Some get the front gate, some go out the back door.

The United States (I’m not talking about the thread topic, obviously) appears to be asking Israel not to do things that are completely within their purview.

I am certainly not trying to pick a fight, or even take a side. Specially with you, (your a keen intellect).

I honestly don’t know who’s side to take in all this stuff. Digging for information. Searching for enlightenment.

141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:06:57am

re: #136 Spare O’Lake

Me a gentile boy.

142 darthstar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:07:14am

re: #137 Dark_Falcon

He doesn’t care. In his mind, the ends justify the means. He probably railed against Bill Ayers in 2008, but now he has become Bill Ayers by walking the same “anything to win” path. That’s a bad path to take and once you start inciting violence, you start becoming a monster.

I just hope he finds himself facing criminal charges. If the guy(s) who did this get caught and say they got the idea from him, then he is culpable.

143 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:07:36am

re: #139 MandyManners

Are you talking about the ones recently shipped to Diego Garcia?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

144 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:07:57am

re: #139 MandyManners

Yes. Diverted from Israel or positioned for our use, at least that is the theories I saw so far.

145 darthstar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:08:07am

re: #141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Me a gentile boy.

I had a girl in one of my classes when I taught whose last name was Gentile. Her first name? Dusty. Dusty Gentile. I loved that name.

146 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:08:42am

re: #144 Rightwingconspirator

Yes. Diverted from Israel or positioned for our use, at least that is the theories I saw so far.

Shipped from California using a Florida-based company.

147 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:09:15am

t re: #129 darthstar

On to the subject of domestic terror…it appears that the Teabagger who posted the address of US Rep Tom Perillo’s brother (then refused to take it down, calling it ‘collateral damage’) is now shocked, SHOCKED! that someone would actually go to the Representative’s brother’s house and sever the gas line leading into their home.

Inciting violence is against the law, asshole.


He probably thinks he’s a patriot. This is becoming beyond pathetic.

148 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:09:44am

re: #146 MandyManners

If it is not all some policy chess move baloney anyway.

149 NYNY  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:09:53am

re: #133 Spare O’Lake

so while it was good that Israel did what it needed to do, their is a certain question about israel’s “right” to assasinate the terrorist.

I’m pretty sure the Dalai Lama is pretty high up on China’s sh!t list, could they assasinate him in the US?

Of course this whole arguement kinda falls apart if you hold (as I do) that their certain truthes that are not dependent upon culture. And when dubai is not willing to extradite/lock up/punish a terrorist then people (israel) has to take a hand.

150 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:10:22am

re: #147 HappyWarrior

t


He probably thinks he’s a patriot. This is becoming beyond pathetic.


fify

151 Macha  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:10:42am

re: #137 Dark_Falcon

He doesn’t care. In his mind, the ends justify the means. He probably railed against Bill Ayers in 2008, but now he has become Bill Ayers by walking the same “anything to win” path. That’s a bad path to take and once you start inciting violence, you start becoming a monster.

Exactly. That is why the us and them mentality that has formed up is so darn dangerous and spooky. Once the opposition becomes “them”, any behavior to win is condoned. There are many monsters in the making out there and the right wing talking heads are just as guilty of inciting violence as the guy who posted the address.

152 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:10:59am

re: #148 Rightwingconspirator

If it is not all some policy chess move baloney anyway.

Don’t forget the defensive missiles we’ve installed in four Arab nations since the first of the year.

153 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:10:59am

re: #145 darthstar

I had a girl in one of my classes when I taught whose last name was Gentile. Her first name? Dusty. Dusty Gentile. I loved that name.

Reminds me of the Steven Wright bit. Paraphrased…

“Met a beautiful blond haired Chinese woman on the bus. I asked her how she was doing. She told me, “I am a nymphomaniac who is only turned on by Jewish Cowboys.” She asked me, “What’s your name?” I said, “Bucky Goldstein.”

154 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:11:55am

out, laters all.

155 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:13:40am

re: #153 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Reminds me of the Steven Wright bit. Paraphrased…

“Met a beautiful blond haired Chinese woman on the bus. I asked her how she was doing. She told me, “I am a nymphomaniac who is only turned on by Jewish Cowboys.” She asked me, “What’s your name?” I said, “Bucky Goldstein.”

LOL

156 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:13:54am

re: #151 Macha

Exactly. That is why the us and them mentality that has formed up is so darn dangerous and spooky. Once the opposition becomes “them”, any behavior to win is condoned. There are many monsters in the making out there and the right wing talking heads are just as guilty of inciting violence as the guy who posted the address.

Depends on the talking head. Brit Hume and bill O’Reilly stay within the bounds of sanity and thus hold no incitement liability in my eyes, while Glenn Beck is clearly inciting.

157 blueraven  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:14:04am

re: #137 Dark_Falcon

He doesn’t care. In his mind, the ends justify the means. He probably railed against Bill Ayers in 2008, but now he has become Bill Ayers by walking the same “anything to win” path. That’s a bad path to take and once you start inciting violence, you start becoming a monster.

Sarah Palin isn’t helping the situation either. With a tweet advising people to “ReLoad” after the HCR was passed. Then directing to her facebook and SarahPac with a map “targeting” dem representatives in red states illustrated with what appears to be rifle cross-hairs.

158 Macha  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:15:54am

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

Depends on the talking head. Brit Hume and bill O’Reilly stay within the bounds of sanity and thus hold no incitement liability in my eyes, while Glenn Beck is clearly inciting.

You are right. I used too inclusive a statement. I’d put Rush into the inciting violence club too.

159 Spider Mensch  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:16:58am

re: #146 MandyManners

Shipped from California using a Florida-based company.

that’s the part of that whole story that didn’t ring true for me…I’m ex military, but munitions transfer wasn’t my specialty, but a couple of points on that story..

wouldn’t the US Navy be involved in such a large weapons move/transfer?
why would weapons be moving thru a civilian port and not a weapons depot?
just quick observations. maybe using private contractors for large weapons movement is standard operating procedure? I wouldn’t think so, but who knows. if the weapons were going to another country by the manufacturer, then yes I could understand using private firms to move them

160 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:17:41am

Re: the actual thread topic.

I can’t find the article I read this morning where Milliband clarified that the diplomatic action was not an “expulsion” per se.

Instead, I will settle for the exact phrasing used by Milliband to UK Parliament. Notice what it doesn’t say. THIS is quoted all over the place [emphasis added].

“I’ve asked that a member of the Embassy of Israel be withdrawn from the UK as a result of this affair and this is taking place,”

161 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:18:32am

OT:
Dwight Gooden was arrested again after being in a 2-car accident last night. This time, it was for DUI while he had his kid in the car . Lucky that there weren’t any reported injuries.

162 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:18:40am

re: #141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Me a gentile boy.

Me a Joo boy.
So what?
Your level of comprehension (or mine) has nothing to do with our respective religions.

163 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:19:24am

re: #160 Joo-LiZ

Re: the actual thread topic.

I can’t find the article I read this morning where Milliband clarified that the diplomatic action was not an “expulsion” per se.

Instead, I will settle for the exact phrasing used by Milliband to UK Parliament. Notice what it doesn’t say. THIS is quoted all over the place [emphasis added].


I think David Milibrand is Jewish …. maybe he was trying to prove he didn’t have “dual loyalty.”

164 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:19:57am

re: #161 lawhawk

OT:
Dwight Gooden was arrested again after being in a 2-car accident last night. This time, it was for DUI while he had his kid in the car . Lucky that there weren’t any reported injuries.

Too bad he can’t pitch anymore, now he’ll be severely punished.

165 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:20:01am

This is a mob mentality many of these people seem to have. They seem to think, if you disagree with us it’s okay for us to threaten you and your family. It’s just pathetic as hell and the talking heads really aren’t helping with the rhetoric they use. Disagree with the bill all you want but talk reasonably at least instead of acting like a thug.

166 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:20:26am

re: #159 Spider Mensch

that’s the part of that whole story that didn’t ring true for me…I’m ex military, but munitions transfer wasn’t my specialty, but a couple of points on that story..

wouldn’t the US Navy be involved in such a large weapons move/transfer?
why would weapons be moving thru a civilian port and not a weapons depot?
just quick observations. maybe using private contractors for large weapons movement is standard operating procedure? I wouldn’t think so, but who knows. if the weapons were going to another country by the manufacturer, then yes I could understand using private firms to move them

IIRC, Haaretz was the only source I could find for the story.

However, we’re involved in two wars right now so would it be unusual to contract it out since the shipment is not going to a combat zone?

167 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:21:08am

re: #160 Joo-LiZ

Re: the actual thread topic.

I can’t find the article I read this morning where Milliband clarified that the diplomatic action was not an “expulsion” per se.

Instead, I will settle for the exact phrasing used by Milliband to UK Parliament. Notice what it doesn’t say. THIS is quoted all over the place [emphasis added].

The BBC carried it.

168 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:21:53am

Yes, I am a Jew and when the ancestors of the right honourable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon.
— Benjamin Disraeli, parliamentary debate with Daniel O’Connell

169 Spider Mensch  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:22:37am

re: #166 MandyManners

IIRC, Haaretz was the only source I could find for the story.

However, we’re involved in two wars right now so would it be unusual to contract it out since the shipment is not going to a combat zone?


quite possible…and plausible.

170 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:23:28am

re: #166 MandyManners

I couldn’t find the Sunday Herald link I posted but, this is Press-TV’s article.


[Link: www.presstv.ir…]

171 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:24:03am

re: #170 MandyManners

I couldn’t find the Sunday Herald link I posted but, this is Press-TV’s article.


[Link: www.presstv.ir…]

Ooops. PressTV is Iranian mouth-piece.

172 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:26:06am

Sunday Herald link.

173 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:26:27am

re: #149 NYNY

so while it was good that Israel did what it needed to do, their is a certain question about israel’s “right” to assasinate the terrorist.

I’m pretty sure the Dalai Lama is pretty high up on China’s sh!t list, could they assasinate him in the US?

Of course this whole arguement kinda falls apart if you hold (as I do) that their certain truthes that are not dependent upon culture. And when dubai is not willing to extradite/lock up/punish a terrorist then people (israel) has to take a hand.

The Dalai Lama is a dissident pacifist and a world-famous religious leader, not a terrorist.
Al-Mabhouh, on the other hand, was a was a senior Hamas military commander and one of the founders of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. He was involved in several actions against Israel, including the abduction and murder of two Israeli soldiers. In recent years, Mabhouh was also alleged to have played a key role in forging secret connections between the Hamas government in Gaza and the Al-Quds Force of the Revolutionary Guards in Iran.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

174 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:26:43am

Where in East Jerusalem is Ramat Shlomo? I’m looking at Google earth…

175 charles_martel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:27:55am

re: #135 Rightwingconspirator

The other theory is they are positioned for us to use on Iran. As credible as that may be or not.

That may be somewhat credible.

[Link: www.nypost.com…]

176 Ericus58  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:29:44am

re: #166 MandyManners

IIRC, Haaretz was the only source I could find for the story.

However, we’re involved in two wars right now so would it be unusual to contract it out since the shipment is not going to a combat zone?

[Link: newbreed.com…]

Logistics services for government agencies and defense contractors

177 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:30:01am

re: #128 Macha

The number of times they were filmed also makes me question who actually did it. I can’t imagine the perps not knowing they were on camera as much as they were. It was just a bit too obvious and intentional.

I still think Mossad just underestimated their “hosts”. They probably thought Dubai was just a bunch of qat-chewing tribesmen, lazing around in their play-palaces which had been built for them by hired First World contractors. They didn’t expect that the team could be tracked, and identified, by “those people”.

178 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:31:03am

re: #176 Ericus58

[Link: newbreed.com…]

Logistics services for government agencies and defense contractors

IIRC, the one used to ship to Diego Garcia is based in Florida.

179 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:31:05am

re: #174 Rightwingconspirator

Really North Jerusalem?
31”48’37.6 N
35”12.59.09 E

180 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:31:41am

re: #175 charles_martel

Maybe but I am skeptical of the whole thing.

181 jayzee  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:32:18am

I don’t think there is real fallout from anything. It’s all an excuse to try to school Israel on what it needs to do to bring world peace. If Israel did this, they did the right thing and even had they not, the world would still find something to punish them for.

183 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:32:56am

re: #181 jayzee

I don’t think there is real fallout from anything. It’s all an excuse to try to school Israel on what it needs to do to bring world peace. If Israel did this, they did the right thing and even had they not, the world would still find something to punish them for.

DING! DING! DING!

184 garhighway  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:35:30am

This thread may have the lowest “knowledge to noise ratio” in LGF history. Does anyone here actually know anything about this stuff? Or are we all drawing off of what we saw in Munich, Syriana and the Bourne movies?

185 jayzee  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:36:00am

re: #177 The Sanity Inspector

I still think Mossad just underestimated their “hosts”. They probably thought Dubai was just a bunch of qat-chewing tribesmen, lazing around in their play-palaces which had been built for them by hired First World contractors. They didn’t expect that the team could be tracked, and identified, by “those people”.

I don’t think we can say that they underestimated or overestimated or anything. if it was Israel, the bad guy is dead and the operatives appear to be safe somewhere. Sounds like it was effective. Also, who’s to say that if it was Israel, the trail wasn’t intentional?

186 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:36:27am

Press TV’s main page. Guess which nation is missing?

187 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:37:17am

re: #184 garhighway

This thread may have the lowest “knowledge to noise ratio” in LGF history. Does anyone here actually know anything about this stuff? Or are we all drawing off of what we saw in Munich, Syriana and the Bourne movies?

Well, gee. Just let me pick up my fucking phone and call my buds in Mossad.

I’ll get back to you with what I learn.

188 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:38:19am

re: #184 garhighway

This thread may have the lowest “knowledge to noise ratio” in LGF history. Does anyone here actually know anything about this stuff? Or are we all drawing off of what we saw in Munich, Syriana and the Bourne movies?

It does now since you added your comment… instead of leaving snide offensive comments, why don’t you enlighten us all to your opinion on the topic?

189 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:40:31am
Al-Mabhouh was a murderous terrorist, no doubt, and no one should weep for him. But Israel seems to have seriously miscalculated the diplomatic fallout from this operation.

I take some umbrage at this line. It is certainly true that various governments of the world are always angry at Israel for defending itself from murderous terrorists. The diplomatic fallout is about what is to be expected.

However, let’s not let that distract us from some persistent facts.

1. Do you mean that spies use false identities? I am shocked, shocked I say. Here, I thought that spies wear tuxedos and announce their real names when ordering martinis… The very fact that anyone would whine about this at all is specious.

2. The fact that people are looking for any excuse whatsoever to to whine about Israel killing a known murderer and terrorist, who was a clear and present danger to the lives of innocent people is only proof of the old maxin that dead Jews don’t bother Europeans. In particular, I say fuck the British for their sneering hypocrisy.

190 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:40:56am

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

It does now since you added your comment… instead of leaving snide offensive comments, why don’t you enlighten us all to your opinion on the topic?

No opinions, Walters. Facts, man. He wants facts.

191 shiplord kirel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:41:37am

I, too, am very skeptical that Israel is actually the culprit. Using readily traceable passports is almost literally a false flag, and impossibly bad trade-craft.

There is also the matter of the enormous size of the alleged hit-team.
In real life, it does indeed take more than James Bond and his girlfriend du jour to pull off a clandestine op, but (as someone pointed out earlier) the team that bagged Eichmann and got him to Israel alive was much smaller. Operations like this are often compromised by small mistakes or mere chance. The potential for such a mischance increases exponentially with the number of people involved.

192 jayzee  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:42:19am

re: #174 Rightwingconspirator

Where in East Jerusalem is Ramat Shlomo? I’m looking at Google earth…

Right across the street from the green line. Closer to Jewish neighborhoods than Arab ones.

193 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:43:30am

re: #177 The Sanity Inspector

I still think Mossad just underestimated their “hosts”. They probably thought Dubai was just a bunch of qat-chewing tribesmen, lazing around in their play-palaces which had been built for them by hired First World contractors. They didn’t expect that the team could be tracked, and identified, by “those people”.

I doubt that. Mossad is one of the world’s finest intelligence agencies, and I’m sure they do extensive research before any opearation.

194 jayzee  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:43:39am

re: #189 ludwigvanquixote

I’m glad we have common ground, you and I.

195 andres  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:43:53am

re: #80 Joo-LiZ

It’s the EXACT same crowd that champions free speech for IAW that decided to protest to the point of security concerns against Ann Coulter. The University provost sent her a letter warning her about limits of free speech vs hate speech, etc.

The head of the student union tried to get her to speak off campus.

Right Wing = Hate Speech.
Anti-Israel = Free Speech.

Not that I particularly like Coulter. But the hypocrisy is glaring.

Canada is not part of the USA.

Yet.

196 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:44:14am

If Mabouh had indeed played “a key role in forging secret connections between the Hamas government in Gaza and the Al-Quds Force of the Revolutionary Guards in Iran”, then he may very well have been an extremely high value target, which justified the diplomatic price.

197 sffilk  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:44:25am

re: #186 MandyManners

Press TV’s main page. Guess which nation is missing?

Isn’t that an Arabic website?

198 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:44:55am

re: #195 andres

Canada is not part of the USA.

Yet.

Both incidents happened in Canada.

199 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:45:13am

re: #197 sffilk

Isn’t that an Arabic website?

Nope. It’s in Farsi.

200 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:45:31am

re: #199 MandyManners

Nope. It’s in Farsi.

Well, Farsi is Iran’s language.

201 sffilk  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:45:46am

re: #199 MandyManners

Nope. It’s in Farsi.

I didn’t realize. Thank you for the edification.

202 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:46:20am

re: #185 jayzee

I don’t think we can say that they underestimated or overestimated or anything. if it was Israel, the bad guy is dead and the operatives appear to be safe somewhere. Sounds like it was effective. Also, who’s to say that if it was Israel, the trail wasn’t intentional?

If it was Mossad, those operatives are now retired. They can’t be used anymore, since their mugshots are now everywhere. Twenty-six agents removed from the field at once can’t help but be a big hit to their capabilities, I’d presume.

203 researchok  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:49:24am

Tempest in a teapot, designed as a ‘feel good’ story for the Palestinians to get them to the negotiating table.

Spy-craft is a dirty business, almost always predicated on fraud, counterfeiting and deception. The Israelis are no better or worse than any other nation engaged in the business.

The Brits excel at this kind of thing. You can be sure there was a nod nod, wink wink directed at the Israelis as this unfolded. No doubt the Israelis could embarrass the UK if they were so inclined.

204 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:50:42am

re: #201 sffilk

I didn’t realize. Thank you for the edification.

Dickhead speaks/reads/writes Arabic fluently and Farsi almost fluently.

205 Petero1818  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:51:45am

re: #31 Guanxi88

So dangerous, so full of hateful potential, that the mere presence of the lady is enough to drive Canadians - a normally peaceful, tolerant bunch, who temper free speech with full respect for others - to acts of violence.

Unfortunately that is not the case here. The truth is that a similar thing happened at Concordia University in Montreal when Netanyahu’s visit years ago had to be cancelled. Unfortunately the Muslim and Arab groups on campus (and their misguided leftist allies) at many Canadian Universities have been emboldened in recent years by Universities that are totally unwilling and unprepared to take action in the face of increasingly aggressive, hostile and violent forms of protest and intimidation. I think Coulter is an absolute disgrace, but the tactics that are all to common lately at Canadian Universities make me sick.

206 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:54:22am

re: #205 Petero1818

Unfortunately that is not the case here. The truth is that a similar thing happened at Concordia University in Montreal when Netanyahu’s visit years ago had to be cancelled. Unfortunately the Muslim and Arab groups on campus (and their misguided leftist allies) at many Canadian Universities have been emboldened in recent years by Universities that are totally unwilling and unprepared to take action in the face of increasingly aggressive, hostile and violent forms of protest and intimidation. I think Coulter is an absolute disgrace, but the tactics that are all to common lately at Canadian Universities make me sick.

[Link: www.frumforum.com…]

207 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:56:38am

re: #205 Petero1818

And, who could forget the abuse suffered by Ezra Levant?

208 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:58:04am

re: #189 ludwigvanquixote

Mind you that the Dubai authorities aren’t exactly falling over themselves to explain how or why they let the Hamas terrorist into their own country. They have a problem with the possibility that Israel whacked the terrorist on their turf, not that the terrorist was on their turf in the first place.

209 jayzee  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:58:49am

re: #202 The Sanity Inspector

If it was Mossad, those operatives are now retired. They can’t be used anymore, since their mugshots are now everywhere. Twenty-six agents removed from the field at once can’t help but be a big hit to their capabilities, I’d presume.

depends on who they were and where they were from and why they were recruited. Also, how do we know what the group that did this was expecting? In this day and age do spy agencies need to assume that agents have been compromised based on available technology? Perhaps it’s Dubai that overplayed its hand making public all its technologies?

210 truth stick  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:00:26pm

re: #97 Oh no…Sand People!

If terrorists are willing to put bombs into, quite possibly the GREATEST of Gods creations, boobs, then Israel better step up on Iran.

I mean…to defile boobs.. that’s beyond the pale.

Your right, we can’t let them get away with that…..I wonder how fake they feel :>0

211 Petero1818  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:00:39pm

re: #206 MandyManners

York University is a huge problem. It has always been a leftist bastion, though I have no quarrel with that. But the alliance of leftists and Palestinians and their supporters has made the situation at York shameful. Violent or threatening acts are on the rise against Jewish students there. Many of us in Toronto speak openly about a total boycott of York University by all Jews (supporters welcome of course), its alumni programs, its endowments and faculty and student participation. The trouble is for anyone in Toronto who cant get into University of Toronto (a better school) there is little choice if you want to remain in Toronto.

212 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:01:25pm

re: #195 andres

Canada is not part of the USA.

Yet.

In what sense?

213 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:01:43pm

re: #1 Dragon_Lady

Seems like the Israelis screwed up on that front.

England has it in for Israel. I think there are still old coots in Parliament who remember their failure to control those troublesome Zionist Jews way back during the Mandate.

Once again, Israel had to choose between doing the right thing and appeasing those around them. Appeasement, as we can see, hasn’t worked well for Israel’s security (e.g., relinquishing Gaza). The English politicians responsible for expelling the Mossad official can piss right off. :)

214 samsgran1948  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:02:12pm

I’ve thought from the very beginning that this thing was simply too sloppy for the Mossad. I believe that the Dubai cops are generating lots and lots of noise to convince their fellow Arabs that Dubai is actually very safe for any sort of business. (For example: Dubai had no problem in hosting a known terrorist. They only had issues when the guy was assassinated.)

I am still convinced that some Palestinian — from either Fatah or Hamas — is rolling on the floor with laughter because Dubai is so effectively covering his ass.

215 Petero1818  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:08:42pm

Ultimately, who cares. A terrorist killer is dead. We don’t run around analyzing every extrajudicial killing of a terrorist the US carries out these days (drones), why should we here. If the Mossad used British passports they should be told off by the brits, just as the Canadians registered their anger when the Mossad used Canadian passports in a failed operation years ago. I really don’t believe Israel gives a crap.

216 researchok  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:11:23pm

re: #214 samsgran1948

I’ve thought from the very beginning that this thing was simply too sloppy for the Mossad. I believe that the Dubai cops are generating lots and lots of noise to convince their fellow Arabs that Dubai is actually very safe for any sort of business. (For example: Dubai had no problem in hosting a known terrorist. They only had issues when the guy was assassinated.)

I am still convinced that some Palestinian — from either Fatah or Hamas — is rolling on the floor with laughter because Dubai is so effectively covering his ass.

More than plausible, given that early on Hamas said they knew specifically that Israel was not involved.

Then again, who knows?

217 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:20:14pm

re: #216 researchok

More than plausible, given that early on Hamas said they knew specifically that Israel was not involved.

Then again, who knows?

Yeah it is possible that someone else did the hit. It is possible that several organizations, only one of them being Mossad, did the hit. However, if that is the case, I will be saddened.

We have every right to hunt down and kill these animals. There is no need to apologize for it.

218 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:22:17pm

re: #184 garhighway

This thread may have the lowest “knowledge to noise ratio” in LGF history. Does anyone here actually know anything about this stuff? Or are we all drawing off of what we saw in Munich, Syriana and the Bourne movies?

A lot of us are very familiar with the issues, have studied them in depth and visited Israel multiple times, involved ourselves in politics or community action at whatever level we find ourselves, in dialogue or campaigning on issues, have family ties to the region and of course as citizens of the world are weighing up all sorts of positions, and whether our thoughts are highly credible insights or nonsensical rants is something we might establish in the course of discussions here and elsewhere. Some have an agenda on this issue - mine is to defend Israel against those who would prefer to attack relentlessly, and to take on board any truth I encounter on the way, and to encourage the vision of a peaceful future without kidding ourselves as to what Israel’s sworn enemies are up to . Anything you add can stand or fall on its merits. The vague insult wasn’t helpful notwithstanding you got a response, surely Fisk us properly or not at all.

219 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:23:31pm

re: #208 lawhawk

Mind you that the Dubai authorities aren’t exactly falling over themselves to explain how or why they let the Hamas terrorist into their own country. They have a problem with the possibility that Israel whacked the terrorist on their turf, not that the terrorist was on their turf in the first place.

Wasn’t he there to buy arms?

220 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:23:32pm

re: #217 LudwigVanQuixote

How do you square your support for extrajudicial killing with your adamant opposition to indefinite retention and torture?

Honest question.

221 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:24:27pm

re: #211 Petero1818

York University is a huge problem. It has always been a leftist bastion, though I have no quarrel with that. But the alliance of leftists and Palestinians and their supporters has made the situation at York shameful. Violent or threatening acts are on the rise against Jewish students there. Many of us in Toronto speak openly about a total boycott of York University by all Jews (supporters welcome of course), its alumni programs, its endowments and faculty and student participation. The trouble is for anyone in Toronto who cant get into University of Toronto (a better school) there is little choice if you want to remain in Toronto.

How would you compare it to UC Irvine?

222 skidancer  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:36:13pm

And when Putin marches his forces into Georgia on a trumped up pretext, blows a bunch of civilians to pieces, and does a land grab, did Charles (or the world, for that matter) give a hoot about “diplomatic fallout”? From what I recall the questions had to do with power and morality.

Please. Israel is already under siege by Obama, anti-semitism has been the darling of the upper class in England….What in the world did you expect? If in fact, the Israelis did it (a fact of which I’m not yet convinced), then they must have factored in the fallout.

What a strange world we live in when Angela Merkel might be the best friend Israel has in a head of state.

Weird.

223 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:48:02pm

re: #222 skidancer

And when Putin marches his forces into Georgia on a trumped up pretext, blows a bunch of civilians to pieces, and does a land grab, did Charles (or the world, for that matter) give a hoot about “diplomatic fallout”? From what I recall the questions had to do with power and morality.

Please. Israel is already under siege by Obama, anti-semitism has been the darling of the upper class in England…What in the world did you expect? If in fact, the Israelis did it (a fact of which I’m not yet convinced), then they must have factored in the fallout.

What a strange world we live in when Angela Merkel might be the best friend Israel has in a head of state.

Weird.

One of the fiercest defenders of Israel here is a German Lizard.

224 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:51:12pm

As diplomatic fallout goes, this is not much.

In the diplo service, everybody knows who is the local head of station for the CIA, the KGB, and Mossad. If Israel screwed up on the passports, this is just the kind of diplomatic slap on the wrist one would expect. I don’t imagine there will be any further action on the part of the Brits.

225 andres  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:53:21pm

I wasn’t aware, until I saw the links provided, about the recent history in Canada. However…

re: #198 MandyManners

Both incidents happened in Canada.

AFAICT, Joo-LiZ was responding to pj’s hypothetical statement.

re: #27 pingjockey

Totally OT, the Canadians had to cancel Coulters’ appearance in Canada due to public safety concerns. I like Ann until she goes or did go off the rails but I have to wonder what would’ve happened if it had been a Hamas rep wanting to speak.

——

re: #212 Joo-LiZ

In what sense?

In the sense that Canada is a sovereign country, with their own laws and interpretations.

226 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 12:59:37pm

re: #220 Obdicut

How do you square your support for extrajudicial killing with your adamant opposition to indefinite retention and torture?

Honest question.

The notion of clear and present danger and because of the risks involved with capturing people are sufficient to justify killing a terrorist whenever you have the bastard in your sights.

While it is unrealistic to apply the full court standing of innocent until proven guilty on a battlefield, there still should be the desire to and tendency to aver towards innocence rather than default guilt. I have no problem with clipping a know terrorist who brags about his evil deeds and openly plots more of them. I have a problem with killing the guy we are not sure about.

The real question is what you do with them when you do have them in custody.

There is a difference between a known terrorist - who openly brags about his crimes and the guy we picked up under whatever circumstances, but not necessarily an orgy of evidence pointing to his guilt.

So let’s compare and contrast.

You have a guy like KSM. We know he was guilty as sin and we know he was doing his best to kill more Americans. Had we decided that it was in America’s best interests to simply kill him, then that would have been a just killing.

On the other hand, you have whatever guy that the Army picked up. Some of those guys no doubt were really bad guys. Others may well have been in the wrong place at the wrong time - or even have been combatants, but had never done more than pick up a rifle. The army is not the police. The army does not have the time in the middle of a battle field to do a thorough investigation. This is not the fault of the army. However, this also means that inevitably some of the guys picked up did not deserve to be picked up.

As to torture. No we should not even torture Nazis. And the US refrained from doing so in the Second World War for very good reasons which I have argued strongly here before many times. But if we should not even torture Nazis or KSM when we have him, then we certainly should not torture the guy we are not sure of.

Once we have the guy in custody, we own them. We own the responsibility for what happens to them. We need to act with honor.

227 richard12  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:01:00pm

Charles said “But Israel seems to have seriously miscalculated the diplomatic fallout from this operation.”

I’m seriously disappointed in you Charles. The UK expelling an Israeli offical is the result of intense pressure from none other than the Obama Administration that is trying to force Israel into yet more one sided concessions which will end up killing Israelis. Much like Condelessa Rice strongarming Israel to pull out of the Rafiah Crossing, only to see it months later taken over by Hamas, and the European monitors running with their little sausages in their hands. Obama knows that the Palestinians and arabs aren’t willing to give anything, nor make the most insignificant concession. He also believes that Israel on the other hand can be bent.

His world view sees one side that is immovable and the other immovable, so he decides to put pressure where it works, regardless of the outcome, and all for some bullshit appearance of progress. The French are also now being pressured to do the same thing by the Obama administration.

Something else suspicious, I live in Tel Aviv and have a blog that has of the past two weeks been critical of the Obama Administrations. I haven’t had a no visitor day since the first week I started the blog. But it now seems that I have had no less than 6 straight no visitor days. I have to wonder if the US Administration is playing big brother and Winston Smith is working away to prevent people from reaching my blog or alternatively to prevent it from being promoted. I can’t think of any other explanation.

228 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:02:38pm

re: #224 Cato the Elder

As diplomatic fallout goes, this is not much.

In the diplo service, everybody knows who is the local head of station for the CIA, the KGB, and Mossad. If Israel screwed up on the passports, this is just the kind of diplomatic slap on the wrist one would expect. I don’t imagine there will be any further action on the part of the Brits.

And the main thing is, the bastard al-Mahbouh is still dead. Yay!

229 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:03:34pm

re: #227 richard12

Or it could be that you have a small blog out of the thousands that are out there and you do not have any publicity.

It could also be that if someone did a google for you they saw paranoid rants in broken English and decided not to waste their time.

230 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:03:52pm

re: #228 Cato the Elder

And the main thing is, the bastard al-Mahbouh is still dead. Yay!

Pass me a cigar muchacho.

231 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:10:00pm

re: #226 LudwigVanQuixote

Who is the ‘we’ that knows so certainly that allows us to authorize assassination? It’s not the justice system, so who is it?

232 TedStriker  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:16:58pm

re: #227 richard12

Charles said “But Israel seems to have seriously miscalculated the diplomatic fallout from this operation.”

I’m seriously disappointed in you Charles. The UK expelling an Israeli offical is the result of intense pressure from none other than the Obama Administration that is trying to force Israel into yet more one sided concessions which will end up killing Israelis. Much like Condelessa Rice strongarming Israel to pull out of the Rafiah Crossing, only to see it months later taken over by Hamas, and the European monitors running with their little sausages in their hands. Obama knows that the Palestinians and arabs aren’t willing to give anything, nor make the most insignificant concession. He also believes that Israel on the other hand can be bent.

His world view sees one side that is immovable and the other immovable, so he decides to put pressure where it works, regardless of the outcome, and all for some bullshit appearance of progress. The French are also now being pressured to do the same thing by the Obama administration.

Something else suspicious, I live in Tel Aviv and have a blog that has of the past two weeks been critical of the Obama Administrations. I haven’t had a no visitor day since the first week I started the blog. But it now seems that I have had no less than 6 straight no visitor days. I have to wonder if the US Administration is playing big brother and Winston Smith is working away to prevent people from reaching my blog or alternatively to prevent it from being promoted. I can’t think of any other explanation.

So, it’s all President Obama’s fault that the UK expelled the Mossad station chief in London or that traffic to your website has dropped off, eh? Somehow, I don’t think so, you paranoid jackass…

/you only know two things right now, Jack and shit…and Jack just left town

233 richard12  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:17:58pm

re: #229 LudwigVanQuixote

Broken English? Thanks bud, but I’m American born and bread, and am a writer by profession.

And if you bother to read what I wrote, I haven’t had a single no visitor day in almost two years. And there are always a handful that arrive to my blog through completely random means. In order to read my “rant” you have to first click on the link, uh duh.

234 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:20:57pm

re: #231 Obdicut

Who is the ‘we’ that knows so certainly that allows us to authorize assassination? It’s not the justice system, so who is it?

Well in the case of some of these terrorists, it’s the whole world, since they release videos of themselves bragging about their deeds and sometimes even committing the deeds.

We do not live in a perfect world. At some point, you do have to say that the accumulated intelligence about a bad guy is likely correct - and the need to save innoent lives from the bad guy’s next act outweighs perfect world niceties.

However, on the other hand, once you have the guy in custody, the clear and present danger condition goes away.

All I am saying is that if you have a known bad guy (and I agree that there can be mistakes made and that there are grey zones) if you determine that you do not want to risk the lives of your own people to capture the bastard, and rather just kill him, that is justified. He had it coming and you are saving lives ultimately.

However, the part the my right wing interlocutors miss about this, is that in order to trust that we did the right thing in such cases, we need a track record of acting honorably in all other cases.

Again, my argument is not about the known bad guys. I argue that we should not debase ourselves and torture them and that we should not inflame enemies by torturing them. I argue that we should give the enemy who is not the known bad guy reason to surrender - because he knows he will be treated justly and with compassion - rather than reason to fight to the death (risking more of our people and insuring his death) for fear of torture.

But I am not arguing torture here either. I am simply arguing about what courses of action save the most lives and preserve the most honor.

I am also arguing that in the case of the random guy we picked up, but do not have an orgy of evidence about, we have the duty to err on the side of being compassionate.

But as to the ones who are proudly, openly and evilly guilty as sin. Just kill them in the field - or if you must take them in for intelligence purposes, don’t torture them and act to our highest standards, so that the world knows that if even they get the justice of a trial, so will will the little fish who might not even be guilty.

235 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:21:21pm

re: #233 richard12

Broken English? Thanks bud, but I’m American born and bread, and am a writer by profession.

Don’t give up your night job.

236 theliel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:22:36pm

re: #126 harrylook

LOL. I guess Pakistan can say the same thing about America. Terrorists should know they are vulnerable anywhere. If that insults your sensibilities, I don’t give a shit.

because i know you all are going to be Q.Q ing when china decides to flex it’s nutz and pop a ‘freedom fighter’/’civil rights crusader’ that we ‘harboured’ that china considers a dangerous terrorist.

This is called the Rule of Law. It is supposed to be what the country was founded on.
Good, evil, terroist, martyr, they’re just words and opinions.

We have rules, we have agreed (at fairly high levels) what’s what, and if you knowingly break the rules you don’t get to cry that you were the victim.

In court it’s called an affirmative defense. At the State level it’s a hit to reputation that needs to be balanced with what you get out of it and what the offended parties are going to do back to you.

But you still gotta stand up and acknowledge that you broke the law.

As for true evil - yes, I do believe it exists.
I doubt that a great many of the terrorists qualify, and neither do the mossad agents since they both belive they are simply “defending their people” or “avenging their fathers” or some other trumped up psycological bullshit that helps them sleep at night.

To quote Terry Pratchet “an evil man will do terrible things. But an anverage man well trianed will do utterly unspeakable things and then go home and feel good about it.”

Evil and good get passed around like a senator at lobbists convention and everyone says that the other side is evil or good.

and anyone who takes a long hard look at hte consequences gets implied that they are some how weak, or nervous, or are sad that ‘a terrorist is dead’.

237 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:22:36pm

re: #233 richard12

Broken English? Thanks bud, but I’m American born and bread, and am a writer by profession.

Really? White bread or pumpernickel?

238 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:23:57pm

I will go first:

I haven’t visited richard12’s blog since Obama and Israel fell out. I don’t entirely know why but it didn’t even occur to me. I may have visited it at some time in the past but if so I cannot remember, which I think we can all agree is pretty mysterious. Can anyone else shed light on why nobody is visiting richard12’s blog lately, and if you don’t remember ever visiting it do you think it possible that someone has got at your memories?

239 richard12  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:24:05pm

re: #232 talon_262

Thanks for your calm reply Talon, I can see Charles doesn’t use a dumbshit detector to keep idiots like you off the board.

And yes, the Obama administration is responsible for Israeli officials being exiled from the UK, piling on the pressure to get Netanyahu to give in, yet again. And by the way if your read the comments above, I’m far from the first one to mention this.

Pity he can’t get the Palestinians to stop dedicating squares to terrorists that have killed dozens of innocent civillians or even get them to sit down and talk. But these days he’s taken the Arab position and we can expect more of the same. I wouldn’t be suprised if he instated the Arab boycott of Israel that was made illegal by previous presidents. Or if Israel decided to strike Iranian nuclear facilities, extend his military umbrella to protect Ahmidenejad.

240 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:24:14pm

re: #234 LudwigVanQuixote

Have you read the Culture novels by Ian M. Banks? He’s a sci-fi writer, but the subjects he engages with I think would be very dear to you.

I can’t object to anything you’ve said, but I think a culture of assassination is a very dangerous one. I don’t know whether letting evil men live is more dangerous.

241 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:24:58pm

re: #231 Obdicut

Who is the ‘we’ that knows so certainly that allows us to authorize assassination? It’s not the justice system, so who is it?

Well, here, for example.

Youtube Video

And I agree with the right honorable gentleman that extrajudicial killing of bloody murderers is not only necessary but morally sound and even quite satisfying.

242 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:29:24pm

re: #238 Dom

Can anyone else shed light on why nobody is visiting richard12’s blog lately, and if you don’t remember ever visiting it do you think it possible that someone has got at your memories?

Somebody has my memories. I wish I could remember who.

243 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:32:04pm

re: #240 Obdicut

Have you read the Culture novels by Ian M. Banks? He’s a sci-fi writer, but the subjects he engages with I think would be very dear to you.

I can’t object to anything you’ve said, but I think a culture of assassination is a very dangerous one. I don’t know whether letting evil men live is more dangerous.

I have read the culture novels. Player of Games is my favorite.

But that said, I think we should change the language we are using. You don’t assassinate a mass murderer - you execute him. Execution is a lawful and justified killing by the state. I will hold very strongly that the kind of guy who films himself decapitating a hostage (and will do so again if he is able to) has it coming by any reasonable legal standard.

We did not assassinate Timothy McVeigh. We executed him. He was a terrorist. In a perfect world, we could give all terrorists a trial like McVeigh’s. In that world no police or military lives would be at risk in capturing the criminal either.

Assassination is by definition, a form of murder that is not justified and pointed at a legitimate head of state or major political figure. The terrorists are not legitimate heads of state and they are not innocent men. They are criminals. If more lives are saved by killing them outright, then they should be killed.

On the flip side though, we need to be able to trust that such calls only get made in the cases where it is clearly justified.

244 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:32:24pm

re: #233 richard12

Broken English? Thanks bud, but I’m American born and bread, and am a writer by profession.

Preview is your friend. Regarding blog hits, that’s just the way it goes. Do you advertise on sites like JBlog? The weather is getting nicer and odds are people are spending more time outside than inside blogging. Give it time.

245 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:35:33pm

re: #243 LudwigVanQuixote

Can you please point me to the international law that allows extrajudicial killing?

Or any law that allows extrajudicial killing?

How is it lawful?

246 richard12  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:36:59pm

Don’t look now, but it looks like the Australians are also moving to expel Israeli officials, at the same time as the British. Coincidence they all decide to take this action at the same time, all of the sudden, after all this time has past? No, political pressure at the behest of the Obama administration.

247 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:38:27pm

re: #246 richard12

I’d just like you to know that I gave you a downding at the personal request of Rahm Emmanuel.

248 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:39:15pm

re: #239 richard12

Thanks for your calm reply Talon, I can see Charles doesn’t use a dumbshit detector to keep idiots like you off the board.

And yes, the Obama administration is responsible for Israeli officials being exiled from the UK, piling on the pressure to get Netanyahu to give in, yet again. And by the way if your read the comments above, I’m far from the first one to mention this.

Pity he can’t get the Palestinians to stop dedicating squares to terrorists that have killed dozens of innocent civillians or even get them to sit down and talk. But these days he’s taken the Arab position and we can expect more of the same. I wouldn’t be suprised if he instated the Arab boycott of Israel that was made illegal by previous presidents. Or if Israel decided to strike Iranian nuclear facilities, extend his military umbrella to protect Ahmidenejad.

Why would you think blogs like Hot Air or Michelle Malkin or Rush or Beck or any one of the rightwing who despises Obama, who post racist rants full of N* and racial slurs, why would they still be online, receiving 1000s of visitors and the U.S. blocks your site?

Hell even CNN and Yahoo are magnets for anti-Semitism. Yahoo shut their comments off, for years I believe and just turned them on again. You can’t find a story about Israel that doesn’t have 100s of nastiest, most hate-filled garbage you’ve ever read. It’s enough to want to boycott them all out.

249 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:40:27pm

re: #246 richard12

Don’t look now, but it looks like the Australians are also moving to expel Israeli officials, at the same time as the British. Coincidence they all decide to take this action at the same time, all of the sudden, after all this time has past? No, political pressure at the behest of the Obama administration.

Where is your proof that the U.S. has anything to do with what the U.K. is doing? You think British hearts are filled with love for Israel before Obama came along?

250 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:41:29pm

re: #245 Obdicut

Can you please point me to the international law that allows extrajudicial killing?

Or any law that allows extrajudicial killing?

How is it lawful?

That argument is a sophistry.

There is a difference between law and justice.

International law in particular is much more about international politics than it is about justice, and always has been.

Now as to justice, if you have a murderer who manages to cross some boundary, he is not suddenly free of justice because he crossed some arbitrary line on a map. Would it really matter to you what country Bin Laden is in (if he is still alive) when we hunt his ass down?

The moral slippery slope is not in terms of being respectful of the laws of other nations. The moral slippery slope is in whether or not we obey our own best standards of honor and justice consistently. This is part of why I am so furious at the ham fisted ways that the previous administration treated American values that were inconvenient. If we had always lived up to our standards, and we were known to live up to our code scrupulously, then wen we hunted down bad guys, there would not be room to argue.

251 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:41:33pm

re: #245 Obdicut

Can you please point me to the international law that allows extrajudicial killing?

Or any law that allows extrajudicial killing?

How is it lawful?

I am surprised that the right honorable gentleman should be so naïve.

252 cantankerouscamel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:43:55pm

who cares? So Israel suffers a telling off from an impotent former power in return for knocking off a senior terrorist who is at the very heart of instability in the region, an importer of rockets into Gaza. If it wasn’t for scum like him there wouldn’t have been Cast Lead and civilians wouldn’t have died. Diplomatic consequences are insignificant in light of that.

And let’s not forget that Britain is, by this action, essentially hindering the fight against extremists, terrorists and the worst rejectionists in the region. The British Foreign Office should have been offering British passports to the Mossad to help them knock this guy off. If the world wants peace in the Mid East, it’s in everyones interests to get rid of terrorists who import weapons whose sole purpose is to kill civilians and sow terror. Shame on Britain for not standing up for the forces of good.

253 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:46:19pm

re: #246 richard12

Don’t look now, but it looks like the Australians are also moving to expel Israeli officials, at the same time as the British. Coincidence they all decide to take this action at the same time, all of the sudden, after all this time has past? No, political pressure at the behest of the Obama administration.

Possibly true, but also quite possibly bullshit. Last I checked, Australia was a member of the Commonwealth, and would consult with London rather than Washington.

As for the expulsion of officials, it’s a diplomatic slap on the wrist, as I said above. If the CIA staged an operation and cocked it up so badly that forged passports could be traced back to their sources, the same thing would happen.

The Brits, for all we know, are secretly pleased at the Mossad action, but they have to make a show of disapproval. I seriously doubt anyone high up in the Israeli secret service will turn a hair over this.

254 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:52:40pm

re: #252 cantankerouscamel

who cares? So Israel suffers a telling off from an impotent former power in return for knocking off a senior terrorist who is at the very heart of instability in the region, an importer of rockets into Gaza. If it wasn’t for scum like him there wouldn’t have been Cast Lead and civilians wouldn’t have died. Diplomatic consequences are insignificant in light of that.

And let’s not forget that Britain is, by this action, essentially hindering the fight against extremists, terrorists and the worst rejectionists in the region. The British Foreign Office should have been offering British passports to the Mossad to help them knock this guy off. If the world wants peace in the Mid East, it’s in everyones interests to get rid of terrorists who import weapons whose sole purpose is to kill civilians and sow terror. Shame on Britain for not standing up for the forces of good.

Another one who clearly has no idea what diplomatic gestures are meant to do.

The Mossad cocked it up. A few token heads roll. This has as much to do with Britain “not standing up for the forces of good” as a mid-level executive being transferred from one company office to another has to do with a change in company policy.

Really, have you people never read any John le Carré?

255 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:54:44pm

re: #250 LudwigVanQuixote

You didn’t just say it was just. You said it was lawful and just.

And I’m sorry, but all law may be a compromise, but it’s still what defines what is ‘lawful’.

If you say that the killing is just, I have no problem with it. But if you claim it’s lawful, you need to be able to show the law.

And that is not sophistry. You cannot open a semantic argument and then reject further semantics.

256 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:57:03pm

I just got here and saw the Header. This was not the Mossad, IMO. What are we up to, 26 people?

257 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 1:58:50pm

re: #255 Obdicut

You cannot open a semantic argument and then reject further semantics.

Oh, come on, Obdicut! You yourself are one of the most accomplished goalpost-movers I have ever encountered.

258 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:02:10pm

re: #257 Cato the Elder

Goalpost-moving has nothing to do with what I just said, though. So even if what you said was true, it’s irrelevant.

The claim was made that the assassination was an execution because it was lawful and just. I can accept, easily, the claim that it was an execution because it was just. I can’t accept saying that something that is not allowed by law is lawful.

I don’t know whether you pretend to misunderstand me or really do, but the output is in the end, the same.

259 elizmr  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:02:24pm

why is charles assuming that israel did htis?

260 richard12  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:03:09pm

re: #249 marjoriemoon

Hi Marjoriemoon, let me ask you, why do you find it so hard to believe? After all Obama has piled pressure upon pressure on Israel. Every time it makes a concession he doesn’t acknowledge it, he demands more, really. And he hasn’t made a single public demand of Mahmud Abbas or the Palestinians, correct me if I’m wrong. So now when we look at the big picture, and its clear he’s leaning on Israel and giving the Palestinians a free pass, and he’s taken on the Muslim world political tactic of being “offended” about Israeli construction, while keeping dead silence about the PA celebrating terrorists, why would is it so difficult to believe that he’s also behind the UK expulsion of Israeli officials?

Was it just amazing timing that after being in the media for weeks, the British decide to expel Israeli representatives the day Netanyahu arrives to DC to speak with Obama and his representatives? And look at the facts, the only two things linking Israel to the assassination is that the passports used the names of UK citizens living in Israel, and that the person assassinated was responsible for murdering Israelis and smuggling weapons to Gaza.

Maybe good circumstantial evidence to some, but its not empirical proof. And additionally, all intelligence services use false passports of their ally states for conducting clandestine actions. The British are in effect shooting themselves in the foot (and all other Western nations that use these tactics, which is all of them). They’d only do that under duress, and its clear that its due to pressure of some kind. The pieces are too many to ignore.

Anybody who’s honest about Israel knows that living in perpetual war makes for questionable affairs. But when surrounded by terrorists one has to take actions to protect themselves. Its hard to understand that when you’re not living in Sderot or Ashkelon with missles falling on your head (the same ones Mabchuh was in charge of smuggling), but its true none the less.

What is quite concerning to me as an American, is that Obama has bought the line that Israel is the source of all conflict with Arabs and Muslims in the world, and he is wrong. And by making demands that even the Palestinians had never previously demanded a pre-requisite to peace negotiations, he’s setting himself up for failure, and at the same time weakening the US.

For in the end if he doesn’t completely succeed in breaking Israel now that he’s made it a clear, public priority, he will be interpreted by the Arab and Muslim extremists as weak. He can blame Israel all he wants, but the truth is its his inexperienced policy decisions that have shot himself in the foot, and incited the Palestinians to war, as we’ve seen the past two weeks.

261 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:03:24pm

re: #259 elizmr

why is charles assuming that israel did htis?

Me thinks he is just posting a story.

262 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:03:28pm

re: #255 Obdicut

You didn’t just say it was just. You said it was lawful and just.

And I’m sorry, but all law may be a compromise, but it’s still what defines what is ‘lawful’.

If you say that the killing is just, I have no problem with it. But if you claim it’s lawful, you need to be able to show the law.

And that is not sophistry. You cannot open a semantic argument and then reject further semantics.

The thing is I was never making a legal argument as much as a moral one. This is why I find your objection bizarre.

I am not playing semantics at all. I rather laid out clearly the conflicting moral imperatives in the situation and what I thought ought to be done.

263 windsagio  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:03:48pm

re: #259 elizmr

Shouldn’t the question be ‘why is Britian assuming Israel did this?’

That would actually match the post title.


/on a sidenote, I’m both happy and sad I missed this topic. It would have been fun and interesting, but what a rough ride!

264 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:05:09pm

re: #262 LudwigVanQuixote

Okay. The word ‘lawful’, to me, means ‘operating under the law’. What does it mean to you?

You said that we should change the language we’re using, and laid out a rationale for it that included that the killing was ‘lawful’. Maybe your definition of ‘lawful’ doesn’t involve the law, but if is, what does it involve?

265 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:05:22pm

re: #262 LudwigVanQuixote

Then he’s saying be careful before you assume that what is moral and just is also lawful.

266 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:07:01pm

re: #264 Obdicut

re: #265 Dom

Is “Kill the Enemy” OK?

267 bj  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:08:55pm

The Brits (and Aussies too) need to clean their own side of the street before jumping in the cesspool of Mossad attackers. Where is proof Mossad had anything to do with that terrorist’s untimely demise (shoulda been years ago) or that the Israeli government had anything to do with it?

268 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:09:05pm

re: #266 Cannadian Club Akbar

Don’t know, the question isn’t clear.

269 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:09:26pm

re: #267 bj

The Brits (and Aussies too) need to clean their own side of the street before jumping in the cesspool of Mossad attackers. Where is proof Mossad had anything to do with that terrorist’s untimely demise (shoulda been years ago) or that the Israeli government had anything to do with it?

ZERO!!

270 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:09:36pm

By OK do you mean just and moral, or lawful?

271 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:10:11pm

re: #268 Dom

Don’t know, the question isn’t clear.

Is Al Queda the enemy?

272 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:11:13pm

re: #271 Cannadian Club Akbar

Again, that’s unclear. Friend I know we’re technically on the same page but I have to go, speak some other time.

273 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:11:46pm

re: #272 Dom

Again, that’s unclear. Friend I know we’re technically on the same page but I have to go, speak some other time.

K.:)

274 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:13:11pm

The guy in Dubai wasn’t murdered, he was assassinated, BTW.

275 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:15:08pm

re: #260 richard12

[…] why would is it so difficult to believe that he’s also behind the UK expulsion of Israeli officials?

You might very well think that, but of course I couldn’t possibly comment.

Youtube Video

This part of your argument is weak:

And additionally, all intelligence services use false passports of their ally states for conducting clandestine actions. The British are in effect shooting themselves in the foot (and all other Western nations that use these tactics, which is all of them).

Yes, but the trick, you see, is not to get caught doing it. If you cock it up and things hit the press, a lamb or two has to be sacrificed. The same would apply to any other intelligence service, so it’s not really Israel that’s being targeted here: it’s a corporate shuffle after a screw-up.

As for your “Obama wants to break Israel” conspiracy theory, I’ll go you one better. The “Israeli” action in Dubai was actually carried out by the CIA so as to make it look like the Israelis did it. Because Obama wants to break Israel.

Run with that. You might get some blog hits.

276 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:15:16pm

re: #260 richard12

I agree with a lot of what you said there. I’m not happy with how this admin has handled Israel, but I’m still having a wait-and-see attitude before jumping to the conclusion that Obama is a Jew hater.

I also was not impressed at how Bush dealt with Israel. Bush’s schtick was to say things like “stop the settlements” and then with a nod and a wink, let Israel do its thing. Well it’s better than chastising Israel as Hillary did over what could have very easily been settled down by us instead of causing such a ruckus. Still, when Bush championed Hamas elections, I wanted to puke. As if any of that was real anyway (the elections).

At any rate, none of that addresses the U.S. blocking users to your site which like I say, there’s a lot of worse criticsm out there.

277 Stuart Leviton  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:15:42pm

Someone told me that the victim, Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, was British.
He had a stiff upper lip.

278 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:15:53pm

re: #265 Dom

Then he’s saying be careful before you assume that what is moral and just is also lawful.

I remember you, I think :) Glad to see you again.

279 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:16:24pm

re: #274 Cannadian Club Akbar

The guy in Dubai wasn’t murdered, he was assassinated, BTW.

No, he was executed. LVQ points out the very real difference above.

280 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:18:14pm

have to dash off :( hope to get back soon.

281 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:18:19pm

re: #279 Cato the Elder

#250?

282 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:19:39pm

re: #281 Cannadian Club Akbar

#250?

#243

283 cantankerouscamel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:19:53pm

Cato - “another one who clearly has no idea what diplomatic gestures are meant to do.”

Get real. Announcing this in the House of Commons, a public dressing down, it was done to embarrass Israel, plain and simple.

284 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:21:20pm

re: #282 Cato the Elder

#243

I disagree, but that is what we do here.

285 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:21:32pm

re: #283 cantankerouscamel

Cato - “another one who clearly has no idea what diplomatic gestures are meant to do.”

Get real. Announcing this in the House of Commons, a public dressing down, it was done to embarrass Israel, plain and simple.

And, you ass, it would be done to the CIA if the CIA screwed up an action as badly as Mossad apparently did.

286 windsagio  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:22:55pm

re: #283 cantankerouscamel

I’m trying to stay out of this discussion, but it keeps coming up in the spy. Is your unwillingness to use the ‘quote’ and ‘reply’ function some kind of conceit?

287 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:23:17pm

re: #83 lawhawk

You make a very good point. Israel was also blamed for the tsunami that hit Indonesia. Not by sane countries, but the insane countries are now dictating the aggregate of world foreign policy.

If Israel did it, then they didn’t miscalculate the diplomatic fallout—since the equation of world diplomacy has a constant, Israel is to blame. Given this constant, as is proved daily by the world ignoring the vital contributions Israel makes and can make for the betterment of every part of the world, how can any more bad publicity somehow change the fact that one less mass murderer on the planet means at least one less mass murder.

Also, I’m shocked, shocked, that people involved in covert operations forge documents. And knowing the British propensity for fair play at any cost, I know that forgery is not something they would stoop to. [(\) or is it (//)?]

288 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:24:59pm

re: #285 Cato the Elder

And, you ass, it would be done to the CIA if the CIA screwed up an action as badly as Mossad apparently did.

Do you really think the Mossad did this?

289 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:25:53pm

re: #284 Cannadian Club Akbar

I disagree, but that is what we do here.

I think the distinction LVQ makes is a crucial one. Assassinations are carried out against people one doesn’t like. Executions are for murderers. Al-Buggercamel was a self-confessed, boastful murderer. He got what was coming to him.

If his presumed head of state, Mahmoud Abbas, were killed, that would be an assassination. This guy? Executed.

290 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:27:02pm

re: #288 Cannadian Club Akbar

Do you really think the Mossad did this?

Possibly, possibly not. How would I know?

They are not infallible, despite the legend, any more than James Bond is real.

291 Original Kolya  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:29:42pm

The Israeli press is in no doubt that it was a Mossad operation. And nobody in Israel has denied it. All they have said is that there is no proof. If you were falsely accused of an illegal act, would you refrain from denying your involvement, merely noting that there was no proof against you? That is not to say that the operation was wrong. On the contrary, it was that rare thing, a fully justified, truly surgical military strike.

As for the British response, it is not correct to say that David Miliband directly accused Israel of carrying out the killing. Actually he studiously avoided saying just that. All he did was accuse Mossad of cloning the passports. When challenged in Parliament to draw the natural inference that Mossad also carried out the killing, he declined, saying that the Dubai authorities are investigating the matter and he didn’t want to preempt that investigation.

As regards the decision to expel the Mossad bureau chief from London, that is a very mild response to an Israeli operation — whatever its merits — that compromised Britain internationally. Just suppose that Mossad had used 12 cloned US passports for the operation, thus bringing suspicion on all future US passport holders travelling in the Middle East. Do you thing the “non-antisemitic” US government would have turned a blind eye?

292 cantankerouscamel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:31:39pm

re: #285 Cato the Elder

And, you ass, it would be done to the CIA if the CIA screwed up an action as badly as Mossad apparently did.

A) “ass” - No need to start name calling.

B) What planet are you living on? Britain publicly reprimand the U.S.? Not a chance, would never happen.

Did they reprimand the U.S. for assassinating Saleh Ali Nabhan or Abu Ali al-Harithi or any other U.S. army assassination, such as drone strikes in Afghanistan/Pakistan? Illegal, cold blooded murder, extra-judicial murder? Not a chance.

No, the U.S. didn’t use forged passports in those instances, but unfortunately Israel wasn’t able to insert a helicopter squadron to take Mabhouh out.

Some countries have that luxury, others don’t.

293 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:32:43pm

re: #276 marjoriemoon

I agree Marjorie. I’ve said that the President is closely following the State Department strategy of trying to flip Syria out of Iran’s sphere.

The State Department has never liked Israel, only because Israel’s existence really pisses off the Arabs, which only matters because the Arabs have so much influence over the world’s oil supply.

So all of this is a diplomatic dog and pony show, and Syria will not flip no matter how ‘neutral’ (as defined by the Saudis) the US appears to be.

294 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:36:55pm

re: #289 Cato the Elder

I think the distinction LVQ makes is a crucial one. Assassinations are carried out against people one doesn’t like. Executions are for murderers. Al-Buggercamel was a self-confessed, boastful murderer. He got what was coming to him.

If his presumed head of state, Mahmoud Abbas, were killed, that would be an assassination. This guy? Executed.

Good. He is a member of a party. I don’t care.

re: #290 Cato the Elder

Possibly, possibly not. How would I know?

They are not infallible, despite the legend, any more than James Bond is real.

Mossad doesn’t need more than 3 peeps, IMO. Not trying to get your ire.

295 windsagio  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:39:54pm

re: #294 Cannadian Club Akbar

Mossad doesn’t need more than 3 peeps, IMO. Not trying to get your ire.

Don’t mythologize them :p

296 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:41:26pm

re: #291 Original Kolya

Minor point here, but all intelligence agencies are suspicious of everyone. That’s their job. And occasionally they have to catch someone at something just to justify their existence. I promise you that even though British Intelligence and American Intelligence are on good terms, they watch each other very carefully. If you are a trusting person, being part of the CIA may not be your ideal line of work.

297 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:46:01pm

re: #291 Original Kolya

The Israeli press is in no doubt that it was a Mossad operation. And nobody in Israel has denied it. All they have said is that there is no proof. If you were falsely accused of an illegal act, would you refrain from denying your involvement, merely noting that there was no proof against you? That is not to say that the operation was wrong. On the contrary, it was that rare thing, a fully justified, truly surgical military strike.

As for the British response, it is not correct to say that David Miliband directly accused Israel of carrying out the killing. Actually he studiously avoided saying just that. All he did was accuse Mossad of cloning the passports. When challenged in Parliament to draw the natural inference that Mossad also carried out the killing, he declined, saying that the Dubai authorities are investigating the matter and he didn’t want to preempt that investigation.

As regards the decision to expel the Mossad bureau chief from London, that is a very mild response to an Israeli operation — whatever its merits — that compromised Britain internationally. Just suppose that Mossad had used 12 cloned US passports for the operation, thus bringing suspicion on all future US passport holders travelling in the Middle East. Do you thing the “non-antisemitic” US government would have turned a blind eye?

Thank you for the refreshing sanity.

298 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:50:42pm

re: #294 Cannadian Club Akbar

Mossad doesn’t need more than 3 peeps, IMO. Not trying to get your ire.

No danger of that. I simply don’t know.

Perhaps Obama hand-picked a bunch of Mossad lookalikes and sent them in with orders to kill the guy but leave enough evidence to cause international outrage. Because he want to bring Israel down.

If I were writing a spy novel à la Ian Fleming, that might make a good premise. David Cornwell, not so much. Do you like your conspiracy theories rare, medium or well-done?

299 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:53:33pm

re: #298 Cato the Elder

No danger of that. I simply don’t know.

Perhaps Obama hand-picked a bunch of Mossad lookalikes and sent them in with orders to kill the guy but leave enough evidence to cause international outrage. Because he want to bring Israel down.

If I were writing a spy novel à la Ian Fleming, that might make a good premise. David Cornwell, not so much. Do you like your conspiracy theories rare, medium or well-done?

Well done. I listen to Coast to Coast at night when I ain’t sleepin’. And for now, I have to cook some medium rare steaks. See Ya’ll in a bit.

300 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 2:59:23pm

re: #292 cantankerouscamel

A) “ass” - No need to start name calling.

B) What planet are you living on? Britain publicly reprimand the U.S.? Not a chance, would never happen.

Did they reprimand the U.S. for assassinating Saleh Ali Nabhan or Abu Ali al-Harithi or any other U.S. army assassination, such as drone strikes in Afghanistan/Pakistan? Illegal, cold blooded murder, extra-judicial murder? Not a chance.

No, the U.S. didn’t use forged passports in those instances, but unfortunately Israel wasn’t able to insert a helicopter squadron to take Mabhouh out.

Some countries have that luxury, others don’t.

I retract “ass” and shall call you a fool instead.

301 cantankerouscamel  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:02:32pm

re: #300 Cato the Elder

I retract “ass” and shall call you a fool instead.

How witty and mature of you

302 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:06:13pm

re: #291 Original Kolya

As for the British response, it is not correct to say that David Miliband directly accused Israel of carrying out the killing. Actually he studiously avoided saying just that. All he did was accuse Mossad of cloning the passports. When challenged in Parliament to draw the natural inference that Mossad also carried out the killing, he declined, saying that the Dubai authorities are investigating the matter and he didn’t want to preempt that investigation.

Here’s what Miliband said:

David Miliband, the foreign secretary, laid out the case against Israel in parliament, saying a police investigation found “compelling reasons” to believe Israel was responsible for the copying of British passports, which were used by the killers of a Hamas leader, Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. He said the documents “were copied from genuine British passports when handed over for inspection to individuals linked to Israel, either in Israel or in other countries”.

The name of the official was not published. British officials said the diplomat had been asked to leave because of their position at the embassy and was not being accused of direct involvement in the falsification of British passports. The Guardian understands the official is a senior Mossad agent.

Tonight the Foreign Office warned British travellers to try to avoid entrusting their passports to Israeli officials.

British sources said there was evidence that the 12 British victims of stolen identity had had their passports temporarily taken away either by Israeli immigration officers or other officials. Clones of those passports were subsequently used by some of the large team sent to kill Mabhouh.

“They found no link to any other country,” Miliband said. Without mentioning the Mossad by name, he added that “the government judges it is highly likely that the forgeries were made by a state intelligence service”.

That’s about as direct an accusation as any politician will ever make.

303 captdiggs  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:12:41pm

The British action imo, is linked to the break in US-Israeli relations. Now that Obama is sending out clear diplomatic signals that this administration is becoming hostile to Israel, it’s a free for all in hammering Israel.
Pressure on Israel had ramped up immensely since the break began.
The quartet gave their dictum on Jerusalem, the arabs are becoming more entrenched and vocal, and the UK made a decision on this in the last week.

This will all end badly. It smells of appeasement to the arab/muslim world, and that only earns contempt, not friends, in that region.

304 jvic  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:13:12pm

re: #7 Summer

I totally, absolutely, approve of this guy’s assassination.

But damnit, if it was Israel, they royally bungled this, and not just on the diplomatic front. What’s the count now? 26 people for one hit? I don’t get it. Whatever for? All you usually need is a five or six person team at most. From the footage and the numbers, you’d think they were a traveling carnival…

Fwiw:

Over 25 years ago, an Israeli acquaintance told me the Mediterranean spirit had crept in. According to him, there was a saying that “Israel has the best Arab army in the Middle East.”

305 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:21:06pm
Hamas leader, Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. He said the documents “were copied from genuine British passports when handed over for inspection to individuals linked to Israel, either in Israel or in other countries”.

Tonight the Foreign Office warned British travellers to try to avoid entrusting their passports to Israeli officials.

Right, so if you’re British don’t hand your passport to anyone else at all, since they might be an Israeli spy. That’s just common sense, and practical too. Unfortunately, intelligence agencies don’t keep an up to date catalog of passports from other countries. They have to actually steal someone’s passport to make a good copy.

None of this is making any sense, except that we just know a mass murderer is dead, and various government officials feel they aren’t getting enough press coverage.

306 jvic  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:26:41pm

Had the UK response to the Litvinenko murder on British soil been weaker than their response to the Al-Mabhouh hit, I’d be seriously concerned.

That’s not the case.

307 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:29:07pm

re: #303 captdiggs

If you measure pressure by public statements by officials, yes. If you measure pressure by economic growth—maybe not. If Israel’s economy is growing, that means, boycotts aside, that Israeli companies are doing business throughout the world.

308 Original Kolya  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:39:00pm

re: #302 Charles

The logical implication of what Miliband said is, indeed, pretty obvious. But I think it’s notable that he scrupulously maintained a formal and moral distinction between the cloning of the British passports and the killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.

This fine distinction allowed him to criticize Israel for the counterfeiting of British passports, without voicing so much as a hint of criticism for the operation itself. I think this was a carefully crafted diplomatic move that legitimately chastised Israel for unilaterally implicating Britain in a high profile Mossad operation, without actually criticizing the operation itself.

309 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:43:42pm

re: #308 Original Kolya

The logical implication of what Miliband said is, indeed, pretty obvious. But I think it’s notable that he scrupulously maintained a formal and moral distinction between the cloning of the British passports and the killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.

This fine distinction allowed him to criticize Israel for the counterfeiting of British passports, without voicing so much as a hint of criticism for the operation itself. I think this was a carefully crafted diplomatic move that legitimately chastised Israel for unilaterally implicating Britain in a high profile Mossad operation, without actually criticizing the operation itself.

I see you understand diplo-speak. Would you care for a glass of sherry?

310 Original Kolya  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:46:42pm

re: #309 Cato the Elder

I see you understand diplo-speak. Would you care for a glass of sherry?

I’d love one. Especially as all UK alcohol taxes are going up on Sunday!

311 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:49:58pm

The irony in this (pardon me, THE irony? There are so many we need an irony board.), is that many of the countries criticizing Israel also hire Israeli security consultants, who advise them to publicly criticize Israel in order to decrease the possibilities of terrorist incidents.

I saw an episode of Criminal Intent, based on Rachel Corrie. In the episode, Corrie ends up as a Mossad agent who was accidentally killed. Which isn’t that much different than Son of Hamas being an Israeli spy.

312 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:51:08pm

re: #310 Original Kolya

I’d love one. Especially as all UK alcohol taxes are going up on Sunday!

Right, old chap. Do sit down. I believe we see eye-to-eye on many things.

It’s all very well tormenting the intellectually challenged, but it’s good to see that some people still know how to read the codes.

313 Sacred Plants  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:55:37pm

Israel might have been provided with the information on the Dubai hotel booking of a certain Syrian internet user by someone else who miserably failed to require in exchange for such an oppurtunity being provided that no uninvolved countries would be involved.

The matter being will they also give the boot to the NSA?

314 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:56:47pm

re: #305 Bob Levin

Right, so if you’re British don’t hand your passport to anyone else at all, since they might be an Israeli spy. That’s just common sense, and practical too. Unfortunately, intelligence agencies don’t keep an up to date catalog of passports from other countries. They have to actually steal someone’s passport to make a good copy.

None of this is making any sense, except that we just know a mass murderer is dead, and various government officials feel they aren’t getting enough press coverage.

That first bit was sarcasm, yes? I can’t tell.

hehe That second bit was right on, although I hadn’t thought of the press coverage bit. I’m not ready to say the Brits just want to jump on the bash Israel bandwagon. Europe was never shy of chastising Israel all these years anyway. I think it’s more circumstantial, but I could be wrong.

I really, really hate to say it, but Nixon was Israel’s only tried and true friend. And I hate to say it because Nixon was a terrible man. He did know his way around foreign policy better than most tho.

315 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:03:33pm

re: #314 marjoriemoon

I really, really hate to say it, but Nixon was Israel’s only tried and true friend.

Is that so?

I wonder how he squared that with his deep, abiding, personal anti-Semitism.

316 Gus  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:04:08pm

OT

U.S. Rejected Aid for Israeli Raid on Iranian Nuclear Site
By DAVID E. SANGER
Published: January 10, 2009

WASHINGTON — President Bush deflected a secret request by Israel last year for specialized bunker-busting bombs it wanted for an attack on Iran’s main nuclear complex and told the Israelis that he had authorized new covert action intended to sabotage Iran’s suspected effort to develop nuclear weapons, according to senior American and foreign officials.

White House officials never conclusively determined whether Israel had decided to go ahead with the strike before the United States protested, or whether Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel was trying to goad the White House into more decisive action before Mr. Bush left office. But the Bush administration was particularly alarmed by an Israeli request to fly over Iraq to reach Iran’s major nuclear complex at Natanz, where the country’s only known uranium enrichment plant is located.

The White House denied that request outright, American officials said, and the Israelis backed off their plans, at least temporarily. But the tense exchanges also prompted the White House to step up intelligence-sharing with Israel and brief Israeli officials on new American efforts to subtly sabotage Iran’s nuclear infrastructure, a major covert program that Mr. Bush is about to hand off to President-elect Barack Obama…

317 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:07:38pm

re: #314 marjoriemoon

Yes, that was sarcasm up top. The official statement was ultimately an empty remark—no practical content, because as Sacred Plants just said (I think), a Brit could be handing their passport to a spy from another country who has a contact with someone, who has a contact with an Israeli spy. So if you’re traveling abroad, and an official wants to hold your passport for five minutes, what do you do, tackle the guy like it was a rugby match?

Unfortunately, in the world we live in, diplomatically, ‘friends’ is a very vague concept that almost doesn’t exist. There are only moments when two countries share the same interest on a specific issue or event.

Nixon felt that Israel was the best line of defense against a creeping Soviet influence in the region, which threatened waterways, and the governments of oil producing nations friendly to the US. If Israel invents and holds patents on an engine that doesn’t produce carbon emissions, and runs on something other than petroleum products, the political life of the planet will be much different.

318 Sacred Plants  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:10:51pm

re: #315 Cato the Elder

Is that so?

I told you before.

319 shai_au  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:13:50pm

The issue for me, I think - and for other Australians who were irked about this - isn’t just that the agents used faked passports, but that they used stolen passports. As in, passports with the names of details of two innocent Australians living in Israel, who have now been hounded by the press, and may now find it difficult to travel to any Arab country. In fact, it might be a little more difficult for all Australians to travel to Arab countries, because of this misuse of our passports.

Is it the end of the world? No. Is it something that we cannot ever forgive? No. Did the guy they killed deserve it? Yeah, probably, but that isn’t the issue here. The issue is that a country who is supposed to be our ally and friend did something like this, when we specifically asked them a few years ago not to. We feel used, and cheesed off, and rightfully so.

So if that makes me an anti-Semite, well, fine. DOWN WITH THOSE MONEY HOARDING JEWS etc. /

Note: I am going with what I think is the majority here, and assuming that it was Mossad.

320 Sacred Plants  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:16:48pm

re: #317 Bob Levin

What I said is if China America enabled Israel to do this it should have directed the diplomatic fallout to its own citizens.

321 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:17:07pm

re: #318 Sacred Plants

I told you before.

Wha? I was asking about Richard Nixon’s anti-Semitism, and you link to an old comment about gold stashes?

Given your nick, your pic, your motto and your behavior, I’d say your own stash must be huge, and that you might want to scale back a bit on the consumption thereof.

322 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:18:01pm

re: #315 Cato the Elder

Is that so?

I wonder how he squared that with his deep, abiding, personal anti-Semitism.

That is the conundrum isn’t it. My boss and I were chatting about this and his take was he wanted to be sure Israel and the U.S. had a tight bond, particularly because of the scare of communism during that time. It was all about politics, personal feeling aside. Oddly, because it was Nixon, it’s what I think we’d all like of our politicians, but rarely get it. Country first, and all that.

323 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:23:04pm

re: #317 Bob Levin

Yes, that was sarcasm up top. The official statement was ultimately an empty remark—no practical content, because as Sacred Plants just said (I think), a Brit could be handing their passport to a spy from another country who has a contact with someone, who has a contact with an Israeli spy. So if you’re traveling abroad, and an official wants to hold your passport for five minutes, what do you do, tackle the guy like it was a rugby match?

Unfortunately, in the world we live in, diplomatically, ‘friends’ is a very vague concept that almost doesn’t exist. There are only moments when two countries share the same interest on a specific issue or event.

Nixon felt that Israel was the best line of defense against a creeping Soviet influence in the region, which threatened waterways, and the governments of oil producing nations friendly to the US. If Israel invents and holds patents on an engine that doesn’t produce carbon emissions, and runs on something other than petroleum products, the political life of the planet will be much different.

The word “friends” usually means “business associates” to me, at least regarding the Arab world. And you’re friendly with your business associates, yes? Cordial enough. Israel and the Europeans are more than that or should be.

Thanks for expanding upon Nixon :)

324 Sacred Plants  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:23:29pm

re: #321 Cato the Elder

Yawn.

Who decided against conventional wisdom to disconnect the greenback from the gold standard?

Which attitude does the country where the gold is accumulating have towards Israel?

Cato, please get your homework done.

325 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:27:14pm

re: #324 Sacred Plants

Yawn.

Who decided against conventional wisdom to disconnect the greenback from the gold standard?

Which attitude does the country where the gold is accumulating have towards Israel?

Cato, please get your homework done.

I think you ought to go off the ganja standard. Then we’ll talk.

326 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:27:16pm

re: #319 shai_au

But it may not have been Mossad. There are so many things we will never know, for instance—

Did this terrorist have any pending plans? If so, against which nation?

What self-respecting intelligence agency wouldn’t work this to look like Israel did it?

Why should Israel deny it when they want to project the image to terrorists that there isn’t anywhere they can hide?

To conclude, thank you for you generous offer to be classified as an antisemite, but you’re going to have to do better than that for your application to be accepted.

327 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:28:51pm

re: #319 shai_au

Not terribly sure where you’re going with that. Or I’m trying to ignore it.

Seems like the Mossad wouldn’t be so sloppy as to use a technique such as stealing passports, and 12 of them to boot, when it could so easily be traced back to the rightful owners. Not very Mossad-like.

328 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:30:21pm

re: #326 Bob Levin

But it may not have been Mossad. There are so many things we will never know, for instance—

Did this terrorist have any pending plans? If so, against which nation?

What self-respecting intelligence agency wouldn’t work this to look like Israel did it?

Why should Israel deny it when they want to project the image to terrorists that there isn’t anywhere they can hide?

To conclude, thank you for you generous offer to be classified as an antisemite, but you’re going to have to do better than that for your application to be accepted.

LOL Good answer!

329 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:31:04pm

re: #326 Bob Levin

But it may not have been Mossad. There are so many things we will never know, for instance—

Did this terrorist have any pending plans? If so, against which nation?

What self-respecting intelligence agency wouldn’t work this to look like Israel did it?

Why should Israel deny it when they want to project the image to terrorists that there isn’t anywhere they can hide?

To conclude, thank you for you generous offer to be classified as an antisemite, but you’re going to have to do better than that for your application to be accepted.

Oh, the UAE will tell us after the investigation!

330 shai_au  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:33:42pm

re: #326 Bob Levin

Well, most of what I’ve said is under that assumption, which I think is a reasonable enough assumption. Most of the commentary I’ve read on the subject says that it looks like a textbook Mossad job. Botched a bit, but Mossad all the same.
But I’m prepared to be wrong about that.
And thank you, I will try harder to be anti-Semitic. According to a few posts up the thread, though, all it takes to be anti-Semitic is a bit of anger over how our passports are misused by Israel. So I guess I’m already there!

331 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:34:24pm

re: #323 marjoriemoon

I think Europe and Israel are about as close as they can get. Terrorism for European nations is an internal problem, not a matter of keeping bad guys out of their country. They are already in. Privately, in terms of business, they can do business with Israel, and quite a bit. Publicly, they must take every opportunity to criticize Israel that presents itself, without being perceived as falling into the 1930s mindset.

But, Europe was also built on colonial domination, which is gone. So where is Europe going to get natural resources? Unfortunately, from countries controlled by tyrants and thugs. The math from this point is very easy.

332 Sacred Plants  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:35:53pm

re: #325 Cato the Elder

I think you ought to go off the ganja standard. Then we’ll talk.

Straw man argument. I never advocated ganja being the universal commodity. Here’s what I wrote on monetary policy.

333 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:41:47pm

re: #330 shai_au

Ah well if you want to try harder, say that you have personally done an investigation and have conclusive proof, which you can never reveal because of the far reach of international Jewry, that Israel did indeed do this. Your conclusive proof also follows the carefully and magically divined plan of the Elders of Zion, a group of whom you know with unimpeachable certainty existed since you know the great great grandson of a member of that council, whose name you can never reveal because of the far reach of international Jewry.

And there you go. Glad I could help.

334 alkmyst  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:44:56pm

So how exactly did Israel bungle this?

First, where is any solid proof that whoever pulled off an operation that left a terrorist dead was in fact Israeli?

Ok, so assuming for the sake of argument that it was Israel that pulled off this brilliant operation that left one mass-murdering terrorist dead with ZERO collateral damage…

Who was he there in Dubai talking with? Maybe some people that are intent on arming Pally “peaceful demonstrators”. Maybe it was people with the tech to do something bigger, like ABC attacks?

What exactly is Britain’s problem? Oh, right - they are offended that some intelligence agency used fake passports. Ehhhhhhh, isn’t that what intelligence agencies, ehhhh, DO? Wankers.

Assuming again for the sake of argument that the operation was by Israelis, well let’s see…

Letting the terrorists know that we can find and kill them and leave the country before anyone even knows their missing: Check.

Doing so with foreknowledge of cameras, and photoshopping passport photos so that the actual people involved are pretty much untraceable: Check

Doing so with very little lead time to plan ahead: Check

Letting other countries know that we do not rely on them to take care of ourselves: Check

I am failing to see any “diplomatic fallout” that wasn’t already on someone’s agenda to begin with.

335 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:47:53pm

re: #334 alkmyst

So how exactly did Israel bungle this?

It lacked artistry and beauty.

336 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:52:37pm

re: #332 Sacred Plants

Straw man argument. I never advocated ganja being the universal commodity. Here’s what I wrote on monetary policy.

Quite the deep thinker, aren’t we?

Unfortunately, I’m simply not interested. Not on this thread. Find someone else to amuse.

337 shai_au  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 4:52:51pm

re: #333 Bob Levin

Speaking of anti-Semitism… it’s a bit old, but I recommend this page to anyone who hasn’t seen it. It’s so off-the-wall and batshit insane that it becomes more hilarious than offensive. I think the broken English does it.

And you know what the scariest thing is? He’s not joking.

338 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 5:02:19pm

Okay folks, as always, it’s been a good time, but I must attend to life away from my screen.

339 alkmyst  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 5:02:51pm

Heheh - I watched the tapes - there was definitely art in there.
re: #335 Bob Levin

It lacked artistry and beauty.


I think the main thing being overlooked here is this: Who ever said that such a big crew was used for a hit on one guy? Really, noone has considered that maybe it wasn’t about the guy, but the guy and his friends? Hence a bigger crew to see things, like, I dunno, who he spoke with, who they spoke with, who’s shipping the nukes to Iran, ya know, that kinda thing…

And, BTW, Debka is most likely 100% correct, if one knows how to read it properly.

340 Bob Tail  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 6:15:22pm

“Al-Mabhouh was a murderous terrorist, no doubt, and no one should weep for him. But Israel seems to have seriously miscalculated the diplomatic fallout from this operation”.

The “but” here is irrelevant and makes no sense. But this is only paltry matter.

(1) The point is that all the accusations of killing, Mossad’s work, faking visas, etc. etc. are based on confused information and contradicting statements by Dubai. Dubai claimed the other day that the Mossad agents fled to Iran.
(2) Israel “miscalculated” nothing. It is known that Britain nowadays abounds with Alqaida and Hamas terrorists who enjoy full immunity, while no body has the guts to even say something against hate preachings in Mosques, practicing terror activities, etc. Expelling Israeli diplomat is nothing but populist act designed to soothe the seething Muslim communities in Britain.

341 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 6:15:32pm

re: #64 MandyManners

Ace, and it must be really reassuring.

342 Dom  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 6:29:11pm

Netanyahu is unreasonably not keeping pace with the programme, partly on purpose and partly not on purpose, and Israel is being punished unreasonably likewise. This is a footnote in his relationship with the Obama administration, but a significant one. Britain is not a bit player, and anyway this is not an isolated signal of discontent with Israel’s commitment to a formal cessation of all hostilities, however unrealistic that prospect is. The world expects a lot - much too much - from Israel, but Netanyahu is not even making the right noises.

Maybe a Conservative UK government will take a different line, but maybe they too will be drawn to the Muslim vote and the Arab money, and Netanyahu taking note should be forging goodwill aggressively. I don’t know if he knows how.

343 califleftyb  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 11:50:37pm

Oh the outrage of the British! Compared this flap about passports to the Litvinenko Affair a few years ago - which resulted in the expulsion of four diplomats - and it’s laughable. For those who don’t remember the Litvinenko Affair was an act of nuclear terrorism that killed at least one person sickened hundreds of Brits, contaminated airplanes and public places and spread across Europe. Oh, and the Russian response to the expulsion of 4 diplomats, why they expelled 4 British Diplomats, it routine. Can you imagine if Israel now expelled a Brit???

Read the timeline here, it’s truly amazing. [Link: news.bbc.co.uk…]

344 Sacred Plants  Thu, Mar 25, 2010 8:05:19am

re: #336 Cato the Elder

Quite the deep thinker, aren’t we?

Unfortunately, I’m simply not interested. Not on this thread. Find someone else to amuse.

Well, what would you expect of a lizard? Denial and whining about sour grapes certainly are not a sound basis to engage into a conflict with the Pasdaran.


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