Egypt Updates: February 10, 2011

Mubarak’s last day?
Middle East • Views: 28,512

Today, the Egyptian military command signaled that the days of Hosni Mubarak are over.

CAIRO — The command of Egypt’s military stepped forward Thursday in an attempt to stop a three-week-old uprising, declaring on state television it would take measures “to maintain the homeland and the achievements and the aspirations of the great people of Egypt” and meet the demands of the protesters. The development appeared to herald the end of President Hosni Mubarak’s 30-year rule.

Several military leaders and officials in Mr. Mubarak’s government indicated that the president intended to step down on Thursday. Some reports said he aimed to pass authority to his hand-picked vice president, Omar Suleiman, but what role Mr. Suleiman would play in a military government, if any, remained uncertain.

State television said Mr. Mubarak will appear tonight with an announcement.

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183 comments
1 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:45:15am

OT of a hugely important story, but…..

Bachmann: I’m In For 2012


Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn. addresses the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Washington, Thursday, Feb. 10, 2011. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)

Michele Bachmann led off the Conservative Political Action Conference with a rousing speech sounding very much like a 2012 presidential candidate.

Bachmann fired the crowd up by talking about the importance of making President Barack Obama a one term president.

“This is when it counts… That’s why all of our chips are on 2012…You’re up for it. I’m in. You’re in.”

Ain’t enough popcorn in the world.

2 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:45:18am

I hear the speech was recorded earlier, and Mubarakwill be long out of Cairo.

3 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:45:35am

The military is stepping in, must be a plot by the muslim brotherhood.

//

4 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:46:41am

2.5 hours. The world waits. Twitter is going off.

5 yitzy  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:46:41am

Hooray! Obama did it! Democracy wins!

//

6 Tumulus11  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:48:00am

. The military is calling the shots now in Egypt. Mr. Mubarak and Mr. Suleiman are history. The army will shepherd the nation towards a genuine civilian government. This is the best possible outcome.

7 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:48:39am

re: #3 Dreggas

The military is stepping in, must be a plot by the muslim brotherhood.

//

Do you remember how Sadat was assassinated? Military Soldiers during a parade… And yes it was the Muslim Brotherhood.

8 garhighway  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:49:02am

re: #5 yitzy

Hooray! Obama did it! Democracy wins!

//

Are you critical of the actions of the US government? If so, what would you have had them do differently?

9 rwdflynavy  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:49:17am

re: #6 Tumulus11

. The military is calling the shots now in Egypt. Mr. Mubarak and Mr. Suleiman are history. The army will shepherd the nation towards a genuine civilian government. This is the best possible outcome.

The Egyptian military has been the hero through this all, I hope it continues.

10 rwdflynavy  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:49:52am

re: #5 yitzy

Hooray! Obama did it! Democracy wins!

//

Obama did exactly what he should have done, very little.

11 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:50:12am

acarvin Andy Carvin
RT @bencnn: It’s all excitement now in #Tahrir as people wait for Mubarak’s speech, but what about tomorrow? Too many questions, NO answers.

12 garhighway  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:50:15am

re: #6 Tumulus11

. The military is calling the shots now in Egypt. Mr. Mubarak and Mr. Suleiman are history. The army will shepherd the nation towards a genuine civilian government. This is the best possible outcome.

I think the best possible outcome would have been for Mubarak to step down without the military forcing him to do it. But that just wasn’t in the cards. I’ll settle for this.

13 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:50:50am

acarvin Andy Carvin
Me too RT @LaraABCNews: #Egypt’s own lady liberty - a newspaper cover that has stuck with me for days. twitpic.com

14 garhighway  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:50:59am

re: #10 rwdflynavy

Obama did exactly what he should have done, very little.

That’s my take, too. Not everything that happens in the world is about us.

15 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:51:04am

Well, I’ll say straight up, I was wrong. I honestly thought that if Mubarak made past the last weekend, he’d hold on through September. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not sad to see him leave. I’m also glad to see there won’t be a power vacuum as the military appears to be maintaining control for the moment.

But now we will find out what sort of deals have been cut and if we’re going to see a continuation of a military controlled government, or if we’re going to see some sort of breakdown that moves towards a revolution. I honestly don’t know enough to make a bet either way.

Either way, I’m still grateful to see a change of power like this with a relatively low bloodshed. I know it’s very cold comfort to the friends and families of the hundreds of people who have died, but their losses were not in vain.

16 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:51:08am

re: #6 Tumulus11

. The military is calling the shots now in Egypt. Mr. Mubarak and Mr. Suleiman are history. The army will shepherd the nation towards a genuine civilian government. This is the best possible outcome.

Maybe so.

The just released Communique #1 of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, announcing that the Council will remain in an open-ended session, in order to safeguard “the people’s achievements and demands”, is being interpreted widely as indicating that the Egyptian army has effectively seized political power in the country. A senior field commander gave Ahram Online’s correspondent in Tahrir sq his own interpretation of the statement. According to the senior army officer who preferred anonimity, the Supreme Council is about to announce, in statement #2, that it has taken over authority in the country, for an interim period, the duration of which is to be determined later.

Asked about what such a step might mean for the president, the vice-president and the prime minister, the armed forces commander said “these are people who have no power over the of the armed forces.”

I don’t know how reliable Al Ahram is at this point…or any other point.

17 Kragar  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:52:34am

The military taking over while Mubarak steps down is one thing. Them passing power to a civilian government is another.

18 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:52:48am

acarvin Andy Carvin
RT @monaeltahawy: Civilian-ruled #Egypt is KEY but it looks like our Berlin Wall - #Mubarak - is about to fall. Yalla, Egypt! #Jan25

Hope ya’ll don’t mind the tweet posting!

19 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:53:21am

Contrary to the collective “wisdom” of the right, Obama understood the need for the US to absolutely NOT be seen as meddling in the creation of whatever Egypt’s new government will be. Part of the hatred there is that he is seen as our puppet.

We are not in position militarily, politically or morally to send the army in and impose Mubarak on the Egyptians.

Now it is absolutely true that the Muslim Brotherhood is a serious and dangerous threat. Any leftwing notion that the intellectual father organization of modern Islamism, has changed its stripes is dangerous fantasy. However, one way to insure that the Muslim Brotherhood gains power is for them to be seen as a champion against US intervention.

Obama played this right and he had very few cards to do it with.

20 rwdflynavy  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:53:30am

re: #17 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The military taking over while Mubarak steps down is one thing. Them passing power to a civilian government is another.

Exactly!

21 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:53:34am

acarvin Andy Carvin
RT @halmustafa: Photo: REUTERS: An Egyptian army member is greeted by demonstrators in #Tahrir in #Cairo. #Jan25 twitpic.com

22 leftynyc  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:54:21am

Things are moving so fast it’s hard to keep up. Last I heard Mubarak would be speaking live at 2PM eastern time (8PM GMT) but I have no idea how reliable anything I’m seeing is.

23 avanti  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:54:26am

re: #1 Talking Point Detective

OT of a hugely important story, but…

Ain’t enough popcorn in the world.

The loony right wing dream ticket; Palin/Bachman. (nothing to do with the sane, rational right BTW)

24 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:54:43am

re: #6 Tumulus11

You do realize that Suleiman, Mubarak, Sadat, and Nasser were all military men? The military isn’t interested in promoting democracy. It’s interested in preserving its institutional freedom and power. That means they’ll pay lip service to the protest demands, but the power will reside in those at the top.

Mubarak was the nominal president of a democratic government, but he kept emergency law in effect from the time he was promoted following Sadat’s assassination, bypassing the democratic mechanisms in the Egyptian constitution and pretty much turned Parliament into a rubber stamp organization. He won elections and got to pick and choose his opposition by determining who was eligible to run.

Whether the military makes the ideological and idealistic switch to back a true representative democracy via elections, or decides to back Suleiman as a strongman pushing their interests remains to be seen.

25 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:54:46am

re: #12 garhighway

I think the best possible outcome would have been for Mubarak to step down without the military forcing him to do it. But that just wasn’t in the cards. I’ll settle for this.

Agreed…

but Mubarak stepping down without a violent overthrow is a pretty big deal, considering that just a few weeks ago he reigned over a brutally oppressive police state with impunity. This is a huge signal to the people of the ME that they can oust repressive dictators through essentially non-violent action. Obviously, we don’t know the ultimate outcome, but this a huge deal and it is certainly possible - given how the military has acted so far and given their general popularity with most Egyptians - that the military will usher in a far superior government to the one which has been forced out.

26 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:54:47am

re: #17 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The military taking over while Mubarak steps down is one thing. Them passing power to a civilian government is another.

True, but if the Egyptian military decides to knock some MB heads along the way, it is a win.

27 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:55:40am

re: #17 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The military taking over while Mubarak steps down is one thing. Them passing power to a civilian government is another.

This.

Just because the gnomes have collected all the underpants doesn’t mean there will be profit, so to speak. There is another very crucial step that has to take place next, and it’s not a given that it will.

28 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:55:46am

re: #23 avanti

the sane, rational right BTW

Where are they? I thought they went the way of the do-do.

29 Jadespring  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:56:08am

re: #18 Stanley Sea

acarvin Andy Carvin
RT @monaeltahawy: Civilian-ruled #Egypt is KEY but it looks like our Berlin Wall - #Mubarak - is about to fall. Yalla, Egypt! #Jan25

Hope ya’ll don’t mind the tweet posting!

No. I don’t mind. I’m having problems keeping up with them myself.

30 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:56:09am

acarvin Andy Carvin
MT @justimage: Spoke w/ man holding picture of woman martyr, he brought me to tears…he didnt know her but felt she was his daughter.

31 garhighway  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:56:10am

re: #23 avanti

The loony right wing dream ticket; Palin/Bachman. (nothing to do with the sane, rational right BTW)

That’s my dream ticket, too. Free entertainment for the whole election season.

32 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:56:42am

re: #28 LudwigVanQuixote

*waves*

There are some of us around….

33 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:57:05am

re: #26 LudwigVanQuixote

True, but if the Egyptian military decides to knock some MB heads along the way, it is a win.

I think that would ultimately be a net loss. Movements like the MB feed on the anger that results from political oppression.

34 tradewind  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:57:13am

re: #19 LudwigVanQuixote
Are you serious???
Yeah, really, that’s why the House of Saud called and said
’ You threaten to stop the aid and we’re steppin’ in with the cash, buddy’.
President Obama absolutely see-sawed back and forth before he finally understood that it wasn’t All About America, but he sure tried to shove Mubarak out early…. until he didn’t.
Look at the record, and see how many different ’ positions’ he took.
You may love him to death, but he was all over the map on this one.

35 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:57:30am

re: #25 Talking Point Detective

Agreed…

but Mubarak stepping down without a violent overthrow is a pretty big deal, considering that just a few weeks ago he reigned over a brutally oppressive police state with impunity. This is a huge signal to the people of the ME that they can oust repressive dictators through essentially non-violent action. Obviously, we don’t know the ultimate outcome, but this a huge deal and it is certainly possible - given how the military has acted so far and given their general popularity with most Egyptians - that the military will usher in a far superior government to the one which has been forced out.

Looking at it that way, this is a big blow to the Al Qaeda types as well because this was done not through terrorism and fear but everyday people standing up.

36 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:57:42am

re: #19 LudwigVanQuixote

Contrary to the collective “wisdom” of the right, Obama understood the need for the US to absolutely NOT be seen as meddling in the creation of whatever Egypt’s new government will be. Part of the hatred there is that he is seen as our puppet.

We are not in position militarily, politically or morally to send the army in and impose Mubarak on the Egyptians.

Now it is absolutely true that the Muslim Brotherhood is a serious and dangerous threat. Any leftwing notion that the intellectual father organization of modern Islamism, has changed its stripes is dangerous fantasy. However, one way to insure that the Muslim Brotherhood gains power is for them to be seen as a champion against US intervention.

Obama played this right and he had very few cards to do it with.

Did you listen to that link from NPR the other day? And try this one too. Your characterization about them not “changing their stripes” is refuted by those with deep knowledge about the organization. That isn’t to say that they aren’t Islamists or that they don’t represent the potential for negative outcomes.

npr.org

37 Kragar  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:58:08am

re: #26 LudwigVanQuixote

True, but if the Egyptian military decides to knock some MB heads along the way, it is a win.

Whoever is making out the checks for the aid payments need to get the new address for the next civilian government.

38 tradewind  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:58:43am

re: #36 Talking Point Detective
True dat.
When NPR gets it, you know there’s a problem./

39 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:58:51am

Hope ya’ll don’t mind the tweet posting!


I don’t mind at all as I don’t tweet. I’m still learning the language./

40 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:59:04am

re: #34 tradewind

Are you serious???
Yeah, really, that’s why the House of Saud called and said
’ You threaten to stop the aid and we’re steppin’ in with the cash, buddy’.
President Obama absolutely see-sawed back and forth before he finally understood that it wasn’t All About America, but he sure tried to shove Mubarak out early… until he didn’t.
Look at the record, and see how many different ’ positions’ he took.
You may love him to death, but he was all over the map on this one.

Meanwhile, in reality-land, Obama has been pretty consistent in letting this play out.

Seriously, what planet are you on? Is the weather nice there?

41 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:59:13am

re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Whoever is making out the checks for the aid payments need to get the new address for the next civilian government.

@Sandmonkey

@Ghonim

42 garhighway  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:59:14am

re: #25 Talking Point Detective

Agreed…

but Mubarak stepping down without a violent overthrow is a pretty big deal, considering that just a few weeks ago he reigned over a brutally oppressive police state with impunity. This is a huge signal to the people of the ME that they can oust repressive dictators through essentially non-violent action. Obviously, we don’t know the ultimate outcome, but this a huge deal and it is certainly possible - given how the military has acted so far and given their general popularity with most Egyptians - that the military will usher in a far superior government to the one which has been forced out.

Agree x 10.

We have a long and deep relationship with the Egyptian military that has led to their having a much higher level of professionalism than is typical for the region. I believe (but cannot prove, obviously) that this is one of the reasons that they have behaved in the restrained way that they have.

43 Jadespring  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:59:22am

twitter…

Girl at #Tahrir holds sign: “Uncle Hosni, can you please leave so that Dad switches off #AlJazeera and turns on cartoons for me?” #Jan25

44 avanti  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:59:36am

re: #32 lawhawk

*waves*

There are some of us around…

Thank you for that, talk to your friends, even the lefties would like to see more. We’re the gas pedal, you are the brakes, let’s go for a drive.

45 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 9:59:46am

re: #35 Dreggas

Looking at it that way, this is a big blow to the Al Qaeda types as well because this was done not through terrorism and fear but everyday people standing up.

Absolutely. It’s also a blow because AQ and the MB are, basically, enemies. Despite the presence of some extremists in their ranks, they largely promote a very different rhetoric than AQ - with the important exception of their approach towards Israel.

46 tradewind  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:00:23am

re: #39 prairiefire
I don’t write ‘em, but I read hundreds of ‘em every morning just to cut through the clutter. A great tool unless you get caught up in the back-and-forth.

47 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:00:29am

re: #36 Talking Point Detective

Those who claim deep knowledge about the MB appear to discount, dismiss or otherwise ignore their clear intentions to ultimately establish a caliphate, see to Israel’s destruction, etc. They fob those off as merely wishful thinking and that the Brotherhood has moderated.

Their pronouncements in the course of the protests about Israel shows that they haven’t changed their tune vis a vis Israel, and it should make everyone leery of their ultimate goals for Egypt and the region. Egyptians themselves are leery about the Brotherhood and whose interests they’re promoting.

48 garhighway  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:00:33am

re: #34 tradewind

Are you serious???
Yeah, really, that’s why the House of Saud called and said
’ You threaten to stop the aid and we’re steppin’ in with the cash, buddy’.
President Obama absolutely see-sawed back and forth before he finally understood that it wasn’t All About America, but he sure tried to shove Mubarak out early… until he didn’t.
Look at the record, and see how many different ’ positions’ he took.
You may love him to death, but he was all over the map on this one.

What, exactly, would you have had him do?

49 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:01:20am

re: #38 tradewind

True dat.
When NPR gets it, you know there’s a problem./

Please explain. Have you listened to the interviews? Do you have any idea of the opinions of the interviewees, or about their qualifications?

Your dismissal of an interview simply because it was aired on NPR is beyond stupid.

50 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:01:44am

OT, but this is for trade

AdamSerwer AdamSerwer
@
uh, that was quick RT @pwire GOP honeymoon over: Democrats retake lead in generic ballot, an 11 point swing since elections…

51 comradebillyboy  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:02:14am

I hope the people of end up with more than a re branded military dictatorship. With any luck the Egyptian army will look to the role played by the Turkish army since 1923. The Kemalist army leadership kept Turkey largely secular and gradually facilitated the transition to a relatively free and democratic nation. Recall, the Turks abolished the last Caliphate (with HQ in Istanbul not Babylon) along with the remnants of the Ottoman empire by 1923. Now the preeminent role of the army has diminished and democratic institutions are getting stronger. It has taken a while, but Turkey appears to have surpassed quite a few European nations in both economic prosperity and in political freedom.

52 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:02:18am

re: #32 lawhawk

*waves*

There are some of us around…

I keep trying to point that out as well.

53 tradewind  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:02:41am

re: #42 garhighway
Egypt is an ancient and proud nation with a deep respect for tradition…. I doubt they would allow harm to come to their president if they can help it.
They desperately want to be seen as modern and distinct from some of the Stone-Agers in the region, which is a plus for their future.

54 tradewind  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:03:29am

re: #48 garhighway
What he finally did today, according to Gibbs….. wait and watch.

55 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:03:37am

acarvin Andy Carvin
Mubarak’s FB status has gone from “in a relationship” to “it’s complicated.” Wonder what it’ll be switched to later tonight. #jan25

56 Ericus58  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:04:11am

re: #44 avanti

Thank you for that, talk to your friends, even the lefties would like to see more. We’re the gas pedal, you are the brakes, let’s go for a drive.

*snicker*
I recall the phrase “would you like to go for a Sunday Drive?” was code-speak for a bump-and-a-tickle….

57 tradewind  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:04:13am

re: #50 Stanley Sea
You’re going to have to start preparing early for the Senate switchover in ‘12…. the transition won’t be easy, I can tell.

58 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:04:27am

re: #31 garhighway

That’s my dream ticket, too. Free entertainment for the whole election season.

Mike Huckabee is looking a bit stronger than he did. “Huckmentum?”tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com

59 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:04:27am

re: #47 lawhawk

Those who claim deep knowledge about the MB appear to discount, dismiss or otherwise ignore their clear intentions to ultimately establish a caliphate, see to Israel’s destruction, etc. They fob those off as merely wishful thinking and that the Brotherhood has moderated.

Their pronouncements in the course of the protests about Israel shows that they haven’t changed their tune vis a vis Israel, and it should make everyone leery of their ultimate goals for Egypt and the region. Egyptians themselves are leery about the Brotherhood and whose interests they’re promoting.

Have you listened to the interviews? I haven’t seen what you describe as a discount, dismissal, or ignoring of their Islamist philosophy. And they aren’t just “claiming” deep knowledge - these are people who have interviewed people from the MB for years and years, lived in the Egypt, speak the language.

I really don’t have any idea who you’re describing, outside of some mythical “lefties,” but you aren’t describing what at least most of the experts I’ve heard have been saying.

60 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:04:49am

re: #32 lawhawk

*waves*

There are some of us around…

Fair enough… One of the things that gets me is that so many people consider me a lefty. I’m actually, if you look at what I write, pretty much dead in the center - of what used to be the center 20 years ago. On foreign policy, I understand the need to occasionally rattle and even use the saber. Of course on the other hand, I see it as something to be avoided if possible only ever to be used wisely.

On domestic policy, no I don’t think that corporations have unlimited rights to exploit people or the environment, however, I am all for developing new technologies and bringing them to market to solve many problems (specifically every essay I’ve written about what we should do to fight AGW). In fact, my views about oil and coal are very strictly conservative if you take a buggy whip factory sort of view. Those are terrible and destructive technologies. We have better alternatives that can out compete them.

Of course as far as the wedge issue stuff goes, I suppose I come down as classically liberal. I have no time for some bible banger imposing his ass backwards agenda in my school or bedroom. It is none of their business. I certainly have no time for racism or denying women their rights, and no, life does not begin from the moment you unhook her bra.

Anyway, this is a long way of me saying that I feel you Lawhawk a lot more than you might think.

61 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:06:04am

re: #33 Fozzie Bear

I think that would ultimately be a net loss. Movements like the MB feed on the anger that results from political oppression.

Perhaps, but the only real solution to folks like Nazis or Islamists is to improve them with a bullet.

62 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:06:30am

re: #54 tradewind

What he finally did today, according to Gibbs… wait and watch.

Um… that’s exactly what he’s been doing all along, along with the rest of the country. Do you even read the news, or do you just assume that the things you expect to happen are happening, and then post based on that?

63 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:07:00am

re: #57 tradewind

You’re going to have to start preparing early for the Senate switchover in ‘12… the transition won’t be easy, I can tell.

We will still have Presidential veto power.

64 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:07:59am

re: #61 LudwigVanQuixote

Perhaps, but the only real solution to folks like Nazis or Islamists is to improve them with a bullet.

That just makes more of them by garnering sympathy for their paranoid worldview. It also makes them more extreme.

65 garhighway  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:08:25am

re: #54 tradewind

What he finally did today, according to Gibbs… wait and watch.

Much as I don’t think any of this was about us, it is not possible for the President of the United states to NOT comment on these sorts of events as they occur to a country like Egypt. No one would have let him rope-a-dope through this. That being the case, what would you have had him say? If he expresses support for Mubarak, he alienates the vast majority of Egyptians. If he expresses support for them, he faces criticism for “abandoning a long-time friend”. I think he had to pick.

Do you really think he could have ducked this for three weeks, and do you think that if he had it would have been good for us and how we are viewed around the world?

66 garhighway  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:08:56am

re: #58 prairiefire

Mike Huckabee is looking a bit stronger than he did. “Huckmentum?”[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

He’s not as much fun.

67 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:09:15am

re: #62 Fozzie Bear

Um… that’s exactly what he’s been doing all along, along with the rest of the country. Do you even read the news, or do you just assume that the things you expect to happen are happening, and then post based on that?

The Daily Caller.

Verry intellectual.

68 leftynyc  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:09:31am

re: #22 leftynyc


Oops -make that 3PM eastern time.

69 Ericus58  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:09:38am

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

Fair enough… One of the things that gets me is that so many people consider me a lefty. I’m actually, if you look at what I write, pretty much dead in the center - of what used to be the center 20 years ago. On foreign policy, I understand the need to occasionally rattle and even use the saber. Of course on the other hand, I see it as something to be avoided if possible only ever to be used wisely.

On domestic policy, no I don’t think that corporations have unlimited rights to exploit people or the environment, however, I am all for developing new technologies and bringing them to market to solve many problems (specifically every essay I’ve written about what we should do to fight AGW). In fact, my views about oil and coal are very strictly conservative if you take a buggy whip factory sort of view. Those are terrible and destructive technologies. We have better alternatives that can out compete them.

Of course as far as the wedge issue stuff goes, I suppose I come down as classically liberal. I have no time for some bible banger imposing his ass backwards agenda in my school or bedroom. It is none of their business. I certainly have no time for racism or denying women their rights, and no, life does not begin from the moment you unhook her bra.

Anyway, this is a long way of me saying that I feel you Lawhawk a lot more than you might think.

Well and fairly said, LVQ.
I do think that many of us here have much more in common as compaired to what we are at odds over.

/I think a small tear is in the corner of my eye…

70 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:09:48am

acarvin Andy Carvin
RT @justimage: masses chanting: “hey la hey la hey la, hosni mubarak yemshi al-laya” — hey la … hosni mubarak leaves tonight! #jan25

71 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:10:04am

re: #34 tradewind

Are you serious???
Yeah, really, that’s why the House of Saud called and said
’ You threaten to stop the aid and we’re steppin’ in with the cash, buddy’.
President Obama absolutely see-sawed back and forth before he finally understood that it wasn’t All About America, but he sure tried to shove Mubarak out early… until he didn’t.
Look at the record, and see how many different ’ positions’ he took.
You may love him to death, but he was all over the map on this one.

I do not love Obama to death. What is it with conservatives who see not bashing him unfairly as a statement of love?

This is not a two state system.

As far as him being all over the place, I think not. His position was always try to minimize violence and support a democratic shift as much as possible without aiding the MB. That is a tough tight walk in a difficult region that does not reduce to bite sized thinking - especially during an evolving and turbulent situation.

He did a good job - and honestly given the realities of what we can do, I doubt anyone could have done better so far.

How about we pray that this ends up someplace moderate - because contrary to American delusion, we are NOT in control of this situation, and NO President would be able to do much more given the current circumstances.

72 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:10:44am

re: #64 Fozzie Bear

That just makes more of them by garnering sympathy for their paranoid worldview. It also makes them more extreme.

Not if you have the will to use enough bullets. It worked very effectively in 1941-45.

73 tradewind  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:10:53am

re: #61 LudwigVanQuixote
Wait, what?
You’re advocating shooting them?
Nazis and islamists, yuck, yes, but you want to put a bullet in them?
Maybe I just missed the sarc tag.

74 recusancy  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:11:32am

re: #72 LudwigVanQuixote

Not if you have the will to use enough bullets. It worked very effectively in 1941-45.

“Islamist” is a little broad.

75 garhighway  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:11:53am

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

Fair enough… One of the things that gets me is that so many people consider me a lefty. I’m actually, if you look at what I write, pretty much dead in the center - of what used to be the center 20 years ago. On foreign policy, I understand the need to occasionally rattle and even use the saber. Of course on the other hand, I see it as something to be avoided if possible only ever to be used wisely.

On domestic policy, no I don’t think that corporations have unlimited rights to exploit people or the environment, however, I am all for developing new technologies and bringing them to market to solve many problems (specifically every essay I’ve written about what we should do to fight AGW). In fact, my views about oil and coal are very strictly conservative if you take a buggy whip factory sort of view. Those are terrible and destructive technologies. We have better alternatives that can out compete them.

Of course as far as the wedge issue stuff goes, I suppose I come down as classically liberal. I have no time for some bible banger imposing his ass backwards agenda in my school or bedroom. It is none of their business. I certainly have no time for racism or denying women their rights, and no, life does not begin from the moment you unhook her bra.

Anyway, this is a long way of me saying that I feel you Lawhawk a lot more than you might think.

Do you respect and honor the place of science and scientists in our country?

Then you’re a lefty, because that sure as hell isn’t the position of the right, if the positions of their elected representatives is a fair indication.

76 Winny Spencer  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:12:30am

re: #23 avanti

The loony right wing dream ticket; Palin/Bachman. (nothing to do with the sane, rational right BTW)

Also don’t forget that Sharron Angle has of yet not ruled out a 2012 presidential run.

77 leftynyc  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:12:34am

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

I hear ya Ludwig - I’ve always considered myself very moderate (pro choice, pro 2nd amendment, fiscal conservative with caveats, pro union) but to listen to the filth on faux news, I’m a raging stalinist.

78 tradewind  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:13:31am

Ruh-Roh:

cnnbrk
Egyptian information minister denies President Mubarak is stepping down, state TV reports. on.cnn.com
2 minutes ago via web

79 leftynyc  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:14:09am

re: #64 Fozzie Bear

That just makes more of them by garnering sympathy for their paranoid worldview. It also makes them more extreme.

Not to mention that without 60 votes, a pub senate will get nothing done (same as the dems couldn’t get anything done). So in reality, BFD.

80 tradewind  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:14:22am

re: #76 Winny Spencer
Don’t forget LIndsay Lohan.
It could happen.//

81 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:14:49am

re: #36 Talking Point Detective

Did you listen to that link from NPR the other day? And try this one too. Your characterization about them not “changing their stripes” is refuted by those with deep knowledge about the organization. That isn’t to say that they aren’t Islamists or that they don’t represent the potential for negative outcomes.

[Link: www.npr.org…]

NPR has a fantasy unicorns and rainbows view of them. How about, rathe than listening to what some spin doctor or left wing academic says about them, you listen to what they themselves actually say to their own people? The MB is the same pit of snakes it always was.

82 recusancy  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:15:45am

re: #81 LudwigVanQuixote

NPR has a fantasy unicorns and rainbows view of them. How about, rathe than listening to what some spin doctor or left wing academic says about them, you listen to what they themselves actually say to their own people? The MB is the same pit of snakes it always was.

And they have no support among the young/majority population.

83 Jadespring  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:15:55am

re: #47 lawhawk

Those who claim deep knowledge about the MB appear to discount, dismiss or otherwise ignore their clear intentions to ultimately establish a caliphate, see to Israel’s destruction, etc. They fob those off as merely wishful thinking and that the Brotherhood has moderated.

Their pronouncements in the course of the protests about Israel shows that they haven’t changed their tune vis a vis Israel, and it should make everyone leery of their ultimate goals for Egypt and the region. Egyptians themselves are leery about the Brotherhood and whose interests they’re promoting.

I think that’s totally fair and there is no doubt this underlying viewpoint and agenda exists. The question for me and for many I’ve seen talking about it here and elsewhere is not so much that this doesn’t exist but what is the possibility in terms of power and influence for them to actually enact it and to what extant would they be able to enact.

Hate to do it but I will anyways. There is no doubt in NA, mostly US that there are political groups that would like and are striving for a more ‘theocratically’ based gov’t ranging from mild to damn extreme. Some are very plain about, dominionists for instance and some not so plain. I honestly do see a whole lot of difference between what people like the MB want, more religiously based rule based on Islam and those that want more religiously rule based on some form of Christian morality and tenants. Many of these types have had an agenda like this for years and have been working their way into the current system here and arguebly with some success. They’re doing this within a democratic system yet I don’t seeing a lot of people decrying their right to do so. Decrying what they’re doing and it’s negative effect but not the basic principle that in a democracy that these sorts shouldn’t exist or participate.

If western democracies have these elements within their systems then why shouldn’t or wouldn’t non Western democracies have them as well. And even more at a foundational level if having a ‘theocratic’ or ‘religiously’ based element functioning within a democracy makes it somehow bad at some sort of fundamental level then that doesn’t say much about our own democracies.

84 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:16:27am

re: #77 leftynyc

I hear ya Ludwig - I’ve always considered myself very moderate (pro choice, pro 2nd amendment, fiscal conservative with caveats, pro union) but to listen to the filth on faux news, I’m a raging stalinist.

Welcome, tovarich. You’re 10 years behind in your dues.

85 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:16:46am

re: #73 tradewind

Wait, what?
You’re advocating shooting them?
Nazis and islamists, yuck, yes, but you want to put a bullet in them?
Maybe I just missed the sarc tag.

Yes, I proudly, openly, and with full voice, support shooting Nazis and Islamist terrorists and masterminds.

In the face.

So their brains splatter and it demoralizes their fellows.

I also like the way Tarantino treated Nazis in Inglorious Basterds.

Any other questions?

86 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:17:07am

re: #82 recusancy

And they have no support among the young/majority population.

I truly hope that is the case.

87 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:17:53am

re: #77 leftynyc

I hear ya Ludwig - I’ve always considered myself very moderate (pro choice, pro 2nd amendment, fiscal conservative with caveats, pro union) but to listen to the filth on faux news, I’m a raging stalinist.

Yeah no shit. I’m right with you.

88 sagehen  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:18:06am

re: #19 LudwigVanQuixote

Contrary to the collective “wisdom” of the right, Obama understood the need for the US to absolutely NOT be seen as meddling in the creation of whatever Egypt’s new government will be. Part of the hatred there is that he is seen as our puppet.

We are not in position militarily, politically or morally to send the army in and impose Mubarak on the Egyptians.

Now it is absolutely true that the Muslim Brotherhood is a serious and dangerous threat. Any leftwing notion that the intellectual father organization of modern Islamism, has changed its stripes is dangerous fantasy. However, one way to insure that the Muslim Brotherhood gains power is for them to be seen as a champion against US intervention.

Obama played this right and he had very few cards to do it with.

The Brotherhood’s been saying all the right things, I’m cautiously optimistic.

They’ve said, loudly and publicly, that this is *not* an islamic protest, that they want a true representative government (of which they would be only a one of the factions), that they’re not going to put forth a presidential candidate…

Maybe they’re just being pragmatic, maybe they’re saying these things to reassure the international audience… but if they care about reassuring us, that in itself is a good sign. If they really mean it, then I’d be comfortable with them having a seat at the table.

(and can I suggest… Google Guy ought to be part of the civilian contingent at that table. He’s become a bit of a poster boy who the protesters would be able to rally behind, he’s a modern businessman…)

89 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:19:19am

re: #83 Jadespring

Bravo.

90 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:19:51am

re: #75 garhighway

Do you respect and honor the place of science and scientists in our country?

Then you’re a lefty, because that sure as hell isn’t the position of the right, if the positions of their elected representatives is a fair indication.

Well you make a very valid point. That is why I was so clear about what a moderate was 20 years ago.

Whether or not ice melts when it gets hot should not be a political question in any case.

As to the current crop of GOP scumbags, do you really think that I lose any love over them? Really?

91 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:20:00am

acarvin Andy Carvin
Or is it just beginning? RT @noornet: Wael @Ghonim to Al Arabiya: My Mission is coming to an end #Egypt #jan25

92 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:20:46am

Sandmonkey Sandmonkey
There isn’t an empty inch in tahrir. #jan25

93 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:21:33am

re: #83 Jadespring

The difference is that the right wing groups in America have yet to spawn things on the scale of Hezzballah or Hamas. the MB has a much worse track record than you are giving it credit for.

94 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:21:58am

I would only mention, as it seems to be forgotten (or excused) the Vice President told the world, and the student protesters that Mubarak was NOT a dictator. I think it is interesting that a person so high up in the Obama Administration can say something so incredibly wrong, that sends the wrong message to the pro democracy protesters and it not be seen as an error by the Obama Administration.

96 tradewind  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:22:54am

re: #71 LudwigVanQuixote
POTUS’ position and pronouncements have most certainly swung back and forth for two weeks.
In addition, the Saudis brought into sharp focus how little
( read: nada) we actually could do about this situation.
Today, Gibbs finally said ’ we’re just gonna sit back and wait and see’.

chucktodd
POTUS, while at Donkers, tells press pool re: Egypt, “we’re going to have to wait to see what’s going on.” Similar to Gibbs comments
about 1 hour ago via web


Would have been a smart position from the get-go, and shown consistency and confidence.

97 recusancy  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:23:16am

re: #94 Buck

Impeach him!!!

98 Jadespring  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:23:26am

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

The difference is that the right wing groups in America have yet to spawn things on the scale of Hezzballah or Hamas. the MB has a much worse track record than you are giving it credit for.

Well considering that I didn’t talk any of that at all you have no idea what I do or do not give it credit for.

99 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:24:13am

re: #85 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, I proudly, openly, and with full voice, support shooting Nazis and Islamist terrorists and masterminds.

In the face.

So their brains splatter and it demoralizes their fellows.

I also like the way Tarantino treated Nazis in Inglorious Basterds.

Any other questions?

No matter how I feel about the wisdom of your advocated blanket strategy, the qualification of “terrorists” is a pretty important one. Obviously, there is a difference of scale, but failure to distinguish all Islamists from terrorist Islamists would be like failing do differentiate all Israelis who want a religious state from fundamentalist Jews who would stone homosexuals or believe that the killing of non-jews is justifiable.

100 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:24:51am

SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Page grab of Al Hurra stating that “Mubarak will arrive in Dubai within hours” yfrog.com

101 The Optimist  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:25:10am

re: #88 sagehen

The MB may say its not an Islamic protest, but with 70 million Muslims in a country of 80 million people, democracy will favor the MB. Majority rule will mean trouble for the minorities in any Islamic ruled country.

102 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:26:22am

re: #94 Buck

I would only mention, as it seems to be forgotten (or excused) the Vice President told the world, and the student protesters that Mubarak was NOT a dictator. I think it is interesting that a person so high up in the Obama Administration can say something so incredibly wrong, that sends the wrong message to the pro democracy protesters and it not be seen as an error by the Obama Administration.

It seems that Biden is recognized as being so worthless that nobody was surprised he said something off message. Of course, this attitude of playing nice with Mubarak has essentially been the police of the US for the last 30 years, so you’d have to fault all of them. Cheney also said recently that Mubarak was a good friend and US ally. Nobody bothered making a fuss about that either; its practically expected of Cheney.

103 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:26:37am

re: #85 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, I proudly, openly, and with full voice, support shooting Nazis and Islamist terrorists and masterminds.

In the face.

So their brains splatter and it demoralizes their fellows.

I also like the way Tarantino treated Nazis in Inglorious Basterds.

Any other questions?

I have one…. What exactly is a mastermind?

104 Jadespring  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:26:56am

re: #101 Venezuela lover

Downding for across the board blatant stereotyping.

105 recusancy  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:27:23am

re: #101 Venezuela lover

Pure bigotry.

106 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:27:32am

re: #102 Alexzander

It seems that Biden is recognized as being so worthless that nobody was surprised he said something off message. Of course, this attitude of playing nice with Mubarak has essentially been the police of the US for the last 30 years, so you’d have to fault all of them. Cheney also said recently that Mubarak was a good friend and US ally. Nobody bothered making a fuss about that either; its practically expected of Cheney.

Good friend is not the same think as saying he was not a dictator.

107 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:29:38am

re: #98 Jadespring

Well considering that I didn’t talk any of that at all you have no idea what I do or do not give it credit for.

I’m not trying to pick a fight with you. I really like you as a matter of fact. However, I think it is an unfair comparison between the MB and the right wing kooks in America because of the violence that the MB has already perpetrated and inspired for the last 60 years.

There is a long and very bloody record there that goes beyond the worst of the GOP.

They are much more comparable to the Klan - which admittedly has found a new home in the current GOP.

108 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:30:10am

re: #81 LudwigVanQuixote

NPR has a fantasy unicorns and rainbows view of them. How about, rathe than listening to what some spin doctor or left wing academic says about them, you listen to what they themselves actually say to their own people? The MB is the same pit of snakes it always was.


Do you have any idea of who you have characterized as a “spin doctor” or “left-wing academic?” Obviously you don’t. I’ve given you two links of interviews. If you don’t want to listen to them because of your a priori judgments of them, that on you. But if you did listen to the interviews, you’d see how foolish is your characterization.

But you and tradewind can hang out together and brand all people that NPR interviews as believing in unicorns - despite all evidence to the contrary.

109 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:30:26am

re: #103 Buck

I have one… What exactly is a mastermind?

Wow, Buck, you hate me so much that you are willing to defend Islamists to get at me. You really are a hypocritical piece of work.

110 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:31:29am

re: #108 Talking Point Detective

Do you have any idea what actual MB spokes critters say regularly? OF course not. Sorry, but where I come from, going to first sources for information takes precedent.

111 sagehen  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:31:36am

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

The difference is that the right wing groups in America have yet to spawn things on the scale of Hezzballah or Hamas. the MB has a much worse track record than you are giving it credit for.

Because American religious nutjobs have a political outlet for expression; if they were banned from the electoral process, do you doubt they’d go violent?

112 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:31:45am
113 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:32:54am
114 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:33:26am

re: #109 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow, Buck, you hate me so much that you are willing to defend Islamists to get at me. You really are a hypocritical piece of work.

I did not such thing. Please back up your accusation of me defending Islamists.

I simply asked a question (which you invited). You made a list of people you think can be shot in the head. At the bottom of that list was a term I didn’t quite understand. It seems very general. I am not even defending “masterminds”. I just wanted to get the word cleared up.

115 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:33:37am

re: #96 tradewind

POTUS’ position and pronouncements have most certainly swung back and forth for two weeks.
In addition, the Saudis brought into sharp focus how little
( read: nada) we actually could do about this situation.
Today, Gibbs finally said ’ we’re just gonna sit back and wait and see’.


Would have been a smart position from the get-go, and shown consistency and confidence.

Uhh but that is exactly what we did, while doing whatever we were doing behind the scenes diplomatically. So far this is turning out a lot better than it could have. I really do not understand your complaint.

116 sagehen  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:34:18am

re: #101 Venezuela lover

The MB may say its not an Islamic protest, but with 70 million Muslims in a country of 80 million people, democracy will favor the MB. Majority rule will mean trouble for the minorities in any Islamic ruled country.

Most of Egypt’s Muslims are far more moderate than the Brotherhood; most of Egypt’s Muslims are the kind who’d stand guard around Coptic Churches so Christians can have their services in peace and safety.

117 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:35:36am

re: #111 sagehen

Because American religious nutjobs have a political outlet for expression; if they were banned from the electoral process, do you doubt they’d go violent?

You raise a valid point. I certainly did not say that the new Egyptian government could realistically exclude them. In fact, it is their voice and the threat that they represent that concerns me.

Then again, I am not so keen on the teabaggs for similar reasons.

118 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:36:40am

re: #110 LudwigVanQuixote

Do you have any idea what actual MB spokes critters say regularly? OF course not. Sorry, but where I come from, going to first sources for information takes precedent.

Actually, you’re wrong.

There is a variety of ideology promoted by the MB. There is no doubt that their ideology on Israel is one of hostility. There is no doubt that they are Islamists. There is no doubt that there are some hardline extremists in their midst. But on the whole, they denounced violence as a means to promote their ideology years ago, which is why there is such a rift between them and AQ.

You’re certainly entitled to believe that they lying and that in reality they are violent terrorists, but what they do and don’t say is a matter of record.

119 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:37:13am

re: #104 Jadespring

Downding for across the board blatant stereotyping.

re: #105 recusancy

Pure bigotry.

Always present here. Sad.

120 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:38:08am
121 Kragar  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:38:13am

NEWSFLASH! Just because a group mentions a religion in its name doesn’t mean every member of that religion blindly follows it in lockstep march.

122 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:38:54am

re: #113 Venezuela lover

re: #99 Talking Point Detective
correction:
No matter how I feel about the wisdom of your advocated blanket strategy, the qualification of “terrorists” is a pretty important one. Obviously, there is a difference of scale, but failure to distinguish all Islamists from terrorist Islamists would be like failing do differentiate all Israelis who want a religious state from fundamentalist Jews who would stone homosexuals or believe that the killing of non-jews is justifiable.

You mean the 99 percent of all Muslims that give the other one percent a bad name.
VS.
You mean the 0.0009 percent of all Jews that give the other 99.9991 percent a bad name.

I don’t know how to evaluate the accuracy of your numbers, but while extremist fundamentalist Israelis are indeed a small minority, they do wield a disproportionate political influence.

123 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:40:37am

SultanAlQassemi Sultan Al Qassemi
Obama: We want all Egyptians to know that America will do everything it can for a peaceful transition to democracy

124 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:42:58am

re: #114 Buck

I did not such thing. Please back up your accusation of me defending Islamists.

I simply asked a question (which you invited). You made a list of people you think can be shot in the head. At the bottom of that list was a term I didn’t quite understand. It seems very general. I am not even defending “masterminds”. I just wanted to get the word cleared up.

No you are sitting there with a chubby thinking you have some sort of a gotcha.

But I will play this far with you.

Osama Bin Laden - not sure if he is alive, but if he is, we should rectify that.

Other people who would qualify as masterminds… the people who sit and organize the terrorists and run their money, or the people who organize, radicalize and recruit. Just like the MB.

125 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:44:39am

DNI Clapper:

“The term ‘Muslim Brotherhood’…is an umbrella term for a variety of movements, in the case of Egypt, a very heterogeneous group, largely secular, which has eschewed violence and has decried Al Qaeda as a perversion of Islam,”

126 Jadespring  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:44:47am

re: #107 LudwigVanQuixote

I’m not trying to pick a fight with you. I really like you as a matter of fact. However, I think it is an unfair comparison between the MB and the right wing kooks in America because of the violence that the MB has already perpetrated and inspired for the last 60 years.

There is a long and very bloody record there that goes beyond the worst of the GOP.

They are much more comparable to the Klan - which admittedly has found a new home in the current GOP.

I completely agree with you about the difference in tactics. Beyond tactics though I do think it’s a fair comparison. The underlying goal a theocratic governance system is comparable. The ‘agenda’ is comparable. Here it’s just being done or strived for within the accepted non-violent methods that make up our democratic system. What we should hope for in terms of democracies in the Islamic world is that there is enough ‘will’ and political force for those of the theocratic bent to keep there participation within these non-violent and more democratic ways of functioning. Like here. The Islamist factor is not going to go away any time soon, just like the Christianist factor has yet (if it will ever completely) to disappear completely in the West and particularly in the US right now. That’s why my comments were talking about how much power and influence is at play in the Egyptian context not about their particular underlying agenda.

Heck even the whole destruction of Isreal is comparable is you’re talking about dominionist type believers. For different reasons of course but it’s there none the less. Dominionist types just don’t make it politically public or part of the public record because they know it won’t serve them in any practical capacity. Get down to it though and these types of Christian believers not only subscribe to the eventual destruction of Isreal as a necessity but also the broad sweeping conversion of Jews. Nasty stuff really and it’s not surprising it doesn’t get talked about much in it’s most blatant terms but it simmers in the background.

127 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:44:55am

Jan25voices Jan25 Voices
by acarvin
Obama: Absolutely clear we are witnessing history unfolding. Moment of transformation b/c people are calling for change.

128 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:45:15am

re: #118 Talking Point Detective

Dude, have you heard what they say? Care to give a look over at MEMRI or any number of other outlets that translates them. Have you ever looked at Milestones? That is the fundamental book of their ideology. I realize the being seen as correct on the web is more important to you than being factual, but you position will not obtain in light of reality.

I will go this far with you. If indeed there is a new generation in the MB that truly is walking back all the hatred, I have yet to see them manifest in the ARAB world. I hope they do.

129 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:47:10am

re: #125 Buck

DNI Clapper:

“The term ‘Muslim Brotherhood’…is an umbrella term for a variety of movements, in the case of Egypt, a very heterogeneous group, largely secular, which has eschewed violence and has decried Al Qaeda as a perversion of Islam,”

Wow Buck, yuo hate me so much that you are willing to defend Islamists. You really are a hypocritical piece of work.

130 leftynyc  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:47:16am

re: #90 LudwigVanQuixote

Well you make a very valid point. That is why I was so clear about what a moderate was 20 years ago.

Whether or not ice melts when it gets hot should not be a political question in any case.

As to the current crop of GOP scumbags, do you really think that I lose any love over them? Really?


I’m there with you also. When it comes to evolution and climate change, the right loses me completely. Their anti-science nonsense is bringing our entire country down and soon we’ll be a laughingstock when it comes to science.

131 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:48:09am

re: #124 LudwigVanQuixote

No you are sitting there with a chubby thinking you have some sort of a gotcha.

You are one seriously sick person to talk like that to anyone. I cannot imagine any mature civilized educated person talking like that.

I gave you no reason to attack me that way (twice in this thread).

132 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:48:45am

re: #126 Jadespring

I completely agree with you about the difference in tactics. Beyond tactics though I do think it’s a fair comparison. The underlying goal a theocratic governance system is comparable. The ‘agenda’ is comparable. Here it’s just being done or strived for within the accepted non-violent methods that make up our democratic system. What we should hope for in terms of democracies in the Islamic world is that there is enough ‘will’ and political force for those of the theocratic bent to keep there participation within these non-violent and more democratic ways of functioning. Like here. The Islamist factor is not going to go away any time soon, just like the Christianist factor has yet (if it will ever completely) to disappear completely in the West and particularly in the US right now. That’s why my comments were talking about how much power and influence is at play in the Egyptian context not about their particular underlying agenda.

Heck even the whole destruction of Isreal is comparable is you’re talking about dominionist type believers. For different reasons of course but it’s there none the less. Dominionist types just don’t make it politically public or part of the public record because they know it won’t serve them in any practical capacity. Get down to it though and these types of Christian believers not only subscribe to the eventual destruction of Isreal as a necessity but also the broad sweeping conversion of Jews. Nasty stuff really and it’s not surprising it doesn’t get talked about much in it’s most blatant terms but it simmers in the background.

Well written. But then again, I surely hope you have no reason to doubt my views of Dominionists and the far right in America. I have been the one writing here thee longest that they are a nascent Nazi movement in a real no Godwin way.

133 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:49:10am

re: #131 Buck

Want a martyr cookie?

134 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:49:23am

re: #129 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow Buck, yuo hate me so much that you are willing to defend Islamists. You really are a hypocritical piece of work.

Again, I ask you to show where I defend Islamists. Please back up that statement. You can’t because I never did that.

135 BishopX  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:50:26am

Question for you LVQ, at what point will you believe the MB when they say they’ve renounced violence?

136 simoom  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:50:39am

re: #96 tradewind

POTUS’ position and pronouncements have most certainly swung back and forth for two weeks.

I don’t really agree.

They’ve stuck pretty well to the “transition to democracy starting now” line for much of the crisis. The main discordant note recently was Frank Wisner freelancing his own opinion, after completing his informal envoy role, and the admin did what they could to pour water on that fire by saying his task for the admin was finished when he returned from Egypyt, that he was speaking for himself as a private citizen and that their position hadn’t changed (not that much of the press listened — the Wisner statement was used to fuel dozens and dozens of “the admin is changing its tune” stories).

137 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:51:12am

Check out this page

The faces of the fallen.

Yeah, they look just like us.

andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com

138 Ericus58  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:51:24am

re: #135 BishopX

Question for you LVQ, at what point will you believe the MB when they say they’ve renounced violence?

How about we start with the simple: They recognize the right of Israel to exist.

139 Jadespring  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:51:39am

re: #132 LudwigVanQuixote

Well written. But then again, I surely hope you have no reason to doubt my views of Dominionists and the far right in America. I have been the one writing here thee longest that they are a nascent Nazi movement in a real no Godwin way.

No I don’t doubt. :D I was just using it as an illustration pertaining to my larger points.

140 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:52:30am

re: #137 Stanley Sea

Check out this page

The faces of the fallen.

Yeah, they look just like us.

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com…]

Take a look Buck.

141 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:53:29am

re: #133 LudwigVanQuixote

Want a martyr cookie?

Want to back up your lie that I somehow defended Islamists?re: #140 Stanley Sea

Take a look Buck.

What does that have to do with me? Why do you direct me to this page?

142 leftynyc  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:54:00am

re: #106 Buck

Good friend is not the same think as saying he was not a dictator.

No - it’s much worse. Admitting you’re friends with a man who has oppressed and tortured his people for 30 years - vile.

143 BishopX  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:54:00am

re: #138 Ericus58

How about we start with the simple: They recognize the right of Israel to exist.

That’s a separate question.

144 Interesting Times  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:54:19am

re: #131 Buck

I cannot imagine any mature civilized educated person talking like that.

And I can’t imagine why you continue to think we’re stupid enough to fall for your lies, trollery and endless other crap 9_9

145 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:54:36am

re: #142 leftynyc

No - it’s much worse. Admitting you’re friends with a man who has oppressed and tortured his people for 30 years - vile.

Correct, but it was the truth.

146 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:54:44am

re: #135 BishopX

Question for you LVQ, at what point will you believe the MB when they say they’ve renounced violence?

A start would be that on the same day they don’t also have someone talking about the need to kill all Jews and destroy Israel.

147 Jadespring  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:54:45am

re: #137 Stanley Sea

Check out this page

The faces of the fallen.

Yeah, they look just like us.

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com…]

What no beards and funny look robe clothes?

//

148 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:55:13am

re: #143 BishopX

That’s a separate question.

How so?

149 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:55:21am

re: #141 Buck

Want to back up your lie that I somehow defended Islamists?re: #140 Stanley Sea

What does that have to do with me? Why do you direct me to this page?

You and Venezuela Lover appear to me as very bigoted. I want you to see the faces of those protesters who died in Egypt and somehow reconcile that with your fear of democracy there.

150 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:56:11am

re: #147 Jadespring

What no beards and funny look robe clothes?

//

EXACTLY. Fucking a.

151 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:56:19am

re: #128 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude, have you heard what they say? Care to give a look over at MEMRI or any number of other outlets that translates them. Have you ever looked at Milestones? That is the fundamental book of their ideology. I realize the being seen as correct on the web is more important to you than being factual, but you position will not obtain in light of reality.

I will go this far with you. If indeed there is a new generation in the MB that truly is walking back all the hatred, I have yet to see them manifest in the ARAB world. I hope they do.

Again, if you listened to the interviews you would realize that:

(1) your characterization of the interviewees is completely off-base, without any grounding in fact.

(2) your blanket and simplistic characterization of the MB is in conflict with facts.

I’d be more than happy to discuss with you any information you have that directly contradicts anything that the interviewees say. Again, their characterization of the MB is not monolithic as you seem to think - and the gist of my take-home from the interviews is that your monolithic characterization doesn’t comport with the facts.

Really, you’re arguing from a stance of refusing to account for and conflicting information. It is a decidedly unscientific approach.

Beyond that, we’re just repeating ourselves at this point.

152 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:56:31am

Poll: Low approval for Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt

Key Findings:

•This is not an Islamic uprising. The Muslim Brotherhood is “approved” by just 15%, and its leaders get barely 1% in a presidential straw vote. Asked to pick national priorities, just 12% choose shariah over national power, democracy, or economic development. Asked to explain the uprising, economic conditions, corruption, and unemployment (30‐40% each) far outpace “regime not Islamic enough” (7%).

•Surprisingly, asked two different ways about the peace treaty with Israel, more support it (37%) than oppose it (22%). Only 18% approve of either Hamas or Iran. And a mere 5% say the uprising occurred because the regime is “too pro‐Israel.”

•El Baradei has very little popular support in a presidential straw vote (4%), far outpaced by Amr Musa (29%). But Mubarak and Omar Suleiman each get 18%.

•A narrow plurality (36% vs. 29%) say Egypt should have good relations with the U.S. And just 8% say the uprising is against a “too pro‐American regime.” Still, something over half disapprove of our handling of this crisis and say they don’t trust the U.S. at all.

hurryupharry.org

153 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:56:43am

re: #144 publicityStunted

And I can’t imagine why you continue to think we’re stupid enough to fall for your lies, trollery and endless other crap 9_9

I see. LVQ lies about what I say, insults me and makes a gross statement about me, and you call me a liar and a troll.

Very nice.

154 Ericus58  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:57:21am

re: #143 BishopX

That’s a separate question.

Not at all.
How can a group be for “peace” and also advocate the destruction of a country and/or people of a specific race and/or religion?

155 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:57:47am

re: #149 Stanley Sea

You and Venezuela Lover appear to me as very bigoted. I want you to see the faces of those protesters who died in Egypt and somehow reconcile that with your fear of democracy there.

What did I say that was bigoted? When did I fear democracy in Egypt?

156 Stanley Sea  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:58:24am

habibh Habib Haddad
How r barriers between old and new Middle East being broken? Youth innovation! Kudos to @Ghonim @Sandmonkey @ziadaly @waelabbas @alaa & all

157 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 10:58:49am

re: #151 Talking Point Detective

Hmmm their motto might be a clue:

“Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur’an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.”

158 treasured people  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:00:01am

Shalom from Israel. Everyone here is calm. Children 5 and 6 years old play in their neighborhoods without supervision, feeling safe and secure.
Just give us a little peace and quiet. What happens around us is of marginal concern. Of course, rockets could fly in our direction at any moment but this is of little consequence to people with strong faith, a keen sense of purpose, tangible hopes, and sky high aspirations. Meanwhile, we are expecting a wet weekend to replenish our always precarious water supply. The following Hebrew song has a simple message: just give us rain, we need nothing more than that.
Youtube Video

159 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:00:24am

re: #81 LudwigVanQuixote

NPR has a fantasy unicorns and rainbows view of them. How about, rathe than listening to what some spin doctor or left wing academic says about them, you listen to what they themselves actually say to their own people? The MB is the same pit of snakes it always was.

BTW - you liked an excerpt from one of the interviews with a “spin-doctor, leftwing academic, unicorn believing interviewee that you posted it yourself.

160 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:02:56am

re: #145 Buck

Correct, but it was the truth.

I’m not sure if Biden’s words differed from the perspective of previous administrations. Check out the CIA Fact Book on Egypt. It describes Egypt as having elected Mubarak, and describes the government as a republic.

161 leftynyc  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:05:33am

re: #158 treasured people


Shalom. Is there any news from Israel that we can add to what we think we already know about Egypt today?

162 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:05:40am

re: #152 Jimmah

Poll: Low approval for Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt

[Link: hurryupharry.org…]

Yes, this is the thing that makes me hopeful.

163 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:05:45am

re: #157 LudwigVanQuixote

Hmmm their motto might be a clue:

“Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur’an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.”

There motto is indeed a “clue,” as are a lot of other data.

164 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:06:13am

re: #158 treasured people

Shalom from Israel. Everyone here is calm. Children 5 and 6 years old play in their neighborhoods without supervision, feeling safe and secure.
Just give us a little peace and quiet. What happens around us is of marginal concern. Of course, rockets could fly in our direction at any moment but this is of little consequence to people with strong faith, a keen sense of purpose, tangible hopes, and sky high aspirations. Meanwhile, we are expecting a wet weekend to replenish our always precarious water supply. The following Hebrew song has a simple message: just give us rain, we need nothing more than that.

[Video]

The early rains and the late rains…

165 garhighway  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:06:57am

re: #90 LudwigVanQuixote

As to the current crop of GOP scumbags, do you really think that I lose any love over them? Really?

I do not think that. I think too much of you to think that.

166 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:09:10am

re: #160 Alexzander

I’m not sure if Biden’s words differed from the perspective of previous administrations. Check out the CIA Fact Book on Egypt. It describes Egypt as having elected Mubarak, and describes the government as a republic.

We are talking about the message being sent to the people in the streets. Yes, we all know that Egypt self identified as a republic, but the administration should no better, and either keep their mouths shut or be more careful to not come out supporting an obvious dictator over a democratic movement.

Simple question, do you think that Biden (a man who says he is a foreign affairs expert) thinks there is a democracy already in Egypt?

167 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:09:20am

re: #153 Buck

I see. LVQ lies about what I say, insults me and makes a gross statement about me, and you call me a liar and a troll.

Very nice.

What lie? Your attempts at trolling were obvious to all Buck. Really, pathetic.

So when you post:

DNI Clapper:

“The term ‘Muslim Brotherhood’…is an umbrella term for a variety of movements, in the case of Egypt, a very heterogeneous group, largely secular, which has eschewed violence and has decried Al Qaeda as a perversion of Islam,”

You are not defending the MB? You are not ignoring their role in the formation of Hamas and Hezbollah?

Pathetic Buck. You need to stop assuming that others are as stupid as you are.

168 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:09:48am

re: #165 garhighway

I do not think that. I think too much of you to think that.

I like your posts too and thanks.

169 BishopX  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:10:00am

re: #148 wrenchwench

The Muslim brotherhood has specifically renounced using violence as a means of bringing a Muslim state. Saying that they would like to run candidates who would would look at resuming a war is entirely different than supporting terrorists as a means of achieving your goals.

I’d be happy to talk more about this, but I need to go installs some blinds. I’ll be back in a few hours if you want to resume this.

170 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:12:03am

re: #169 BishopX

The Muslim brotherhood has specifically renounced using violence as a means of bringing a Muslim state. Saying that they would like to run candidates who would would look at resuming a war is entirely different than supporting terrorists as a means of achieving your goals.

I’d be happy to talk more about this, but I need to go installs some blinds. I’ll be back in a few hours if you want to resume this.

Except that they are still, as in there was a page on it at LGF in the past few days, calling for destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews.

171 Alexzander  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:15:10am

re: #166 Buck

We are talking about the message being sent to the people in the streets. Yes, we all know that Egypt self identified as a republic, but the administration should no better, and either keep their mouths shut or be more careful to not come out supporting an obvious dictator over a democratic movement.

Simple question, do you think that Biden (a man who says he is a foreign affairs expert) thinks there is a democracy already in Egypt?

Answer: I think Biden is a stupid and simple man; he probably never thought critically about the legitimacy of Egypt’s elections and just toed the majority line that Egypt was a good US ally.

With respect to messaging, the Egyptian people are aware that we’ve essentially propped up the current oppressive government for the past 30 years because it suits our own geopolitical interests. Biden supporting Mubarak was just more of the same. If anything, there is a dangerous hypocrisy to suddenly condemning the Mubarak regime if you’re administration was keen to play game this entire time.

172 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:15:29am

re: #107 LudwigVanQuixote

I’m not trying to pick a fight with you. I really like you as a matter of fact. However, I think it is an unfair comparison between the MB and the right wing kooks in America because of the violence that the MB has already perpetrated and inspired for the last 60 years.

There is a long and very bloody record there that goes beyond the worst of the GOP.

They are much more comparable to the Klan - which admittedly has found a new home in the current GOP.

There isn’t much of a comparison to be made between middle eastern religion/politics and American politics. What qualifies as “left” or “right” there isn’t terribly comparable to here.

173 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:17:05am
174 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:17:42am

re: #47 lawhawk

Those who claim deep knowledge about the MB appear to discount, dismiss or otherwise ignore their clear intentions to ultimately establish a caliphate, see to Israel’s destruction, etc. They fob those off as merely wishful thinking and that the Brotherhood has moderated.

Their pronouncements in the course of the protests about Israel shows that they haven’t changed their tune vis a vis Israel, and it should make everyone leery of their ultimate goals for Egypt and the region. Egyptians themselves are leery about the Brotherhood and whose interests they’re promoting.

REQUOTED FOR TRUTH.

175 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:18:06am

re: #169 BishopX

The Muslim brotherhood has specifically renounced using violence as a means of bringing a Muslim state. Saying that they would like to run candidates who would would look at resuming a war is entirely different than supporting terrorists as a means of achieving your goals.

I’d be happy to talk more about this, but I need to go installs some blinds. I’ll be back in a few hours if you want to resume this.

In that case, they should have no problem recognizing the right of Israel to exist. I look forward to it.

176 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:18:40am

re: #175 wrenchwench

In that case, they should have no problem recognizing the right of Israel to exist. I look forward to it.

Exactly. That would be a start to peace.

177 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:19:00am

re: #167 LudwigVanQuixote


You are not defending the MB? You are not ignoring their role in the formation of Hamas and Hezbollah?

No I am not defending the MB. I am posting a quote from an Obama administration member who is saying something very relevant about the subject at hand.

I happen to disagree with him, and just about everything else the Obama Administration has done in the middle east.

The lie is simple, you said I am defending the Islamists. You said it before I posted the Clapper quote. SO THAT WAS AN OUTRIGHT LIE. Unless you can back it up.

I NEVER defended the MB, Never Never Never. Never

Never

178 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:21:12am

re: #171 Alexzander

Answer: I think Biden is a stupid and simple man;

OK, I am good with that. We agree.

179 treasured people  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:29:09am

Solution to Egypt’s problems: invite Israel and it’s high tech geniuses to modernize Egyptian industry and agriculture.

180 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:29:45am

re: #149 Stanley Sea

You and Venezuela Lover appear to me as very bigoted. I want you to see the faces of those protesters who died in Egypt and somehow reconcile that with your fear of democracy there.

I will assume that you have been unable to find anywhere that I said something to make you feel I was bigoted, or had a fear of democracy.

Can I expect an apology?

I will let you know that early on (Jan 29 in fact), when talking about the protests I said the following:

If this was Muslim Brotherhood inspired I think we would see anti american and anti israel signs in english. I also think we would also be seeing pictures on signs of some Iman leader being touted as a replacement for Mubarek.

181 Locker  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:39:37am

re: #180 Buck

I will assume that you have been unable to find anywhere that I said something to make you feel I was bigoted, or had a fear of democracy.

Can I expect an apology?

I will let you know that early on (Jan 29 in fact), when talking about the protests I said the following:

When the fuck do you ever apologize for ANYTHING even though your bullshit is constantly and consistently dis-proven? Get to stepping.

182 Buck  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:41:16am

re: #181 Locker

When the fuck do you ever apologize for ANYTHING even though your bullshit is constantly and consistently dis-proven? Get to stepping.

I might post a difference in opinion, but he and Ludwig stated outright lies about me.

183 califleftyb  Thu, Feb 10, 2011 11:49:55am

As of 11:45am on the west coast I see no one from the opposition at a podium making any statements, which I think bodes ill and makes this appear to be a palace coup. If this new strongman is wearing a uniform, watch out, after a few “brothers” and “fellow Egyptians” we can expect the army to do what it does best. Tienanmen redux I fear.


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