Watch this beautiful time-lapse of the recent solar eclipse cnet.co/USUtJw

— CNET (@CNET) December 12, 2012

NEW YORK TIMES, 1912: 12--12--12 That's To-day, and It's a Long Time Till Another Strange Date Line bit.ly/UhiNS9 twitter.com/stefanjbecket/...

— Stefan Becket (@stefanjbecket) December 12, 2012

It seems all of America's enemies are learning how to send stuff flying through the air.

U.S. border patrol officers find 33 cans of marijuana in #Arizona they believe were fired from a cannon in Mexico news.yahoo.com/smugglers-lite…

— Weed Dude (@weeddude) December 12, 2012

The actress in that video Haruka Abe has a wiki page...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

and a home page...

[Link: haruka4be.com...]

Cute girl. :)

Just ordered this for my mom. She's gonna love it.

Melting Clock

Ravi Shankar dies at 92

Spectacular Carina Nebula image from 268-megapixel telescope

Good Night, All.

Michael Giacchino - The Constant

NANNY STATE'S WAR ON CHRISTMAS!!!

There arose such a clatter over pipe-free Santa

Santa has kicked the habit in time for Christmas. No, not the sugar plum habit, or his fur-wearing habit, or his penchant for romping recklessly around open flame.

No, gentlepeople, this is the year the man in red gave up pipe tobacco, at least in a new book version of "Twas the Night Before Christmas" that has received attention from some lofty corners, including the American Library Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics.

[...]

re: #10 freetoken

NANNY STATE'S WAR ON CHRISTMAS!!!

There arose such a clatter over pipe-free Santa

Image: double-facepalm.jpg

hmm hmm stop action live people

humans are weird sir

People keep trying to shoot down Andy Schlafly's Conservapedia entry on why E=MC2 is "nonsense" and he keeps coming up with even more ridiculous arguments to defend his assertion.

It's a liberal fiction that E=mc2 has ever been applied in any practical way. The equation defines rest mass in terms of the speed of light - an absurdity.
[Link: www.conservapedia.com...]

re: #13 watching you tiny alien kittens are

People keep trying to shoot down Andy Schlafly's Conservapedia entry on why E=MC2 is "nonsense" and he keeps coming up with even more ridiculous arguments to defend his assertion.

Their explanation for ice on Mercury was funnier.

re: #3 Four More Tears

It seems all of America's enemies are learning how to send stuff flying through the air.

U.S. border patrol officers find 33 cans of marijuana in #Arizona they believe were fired from a cannon in Mexico news.yahoo.com/smugglers-lite…

There is a Tony Hillerman novel about using underground gas pipelines to transport containers full of drugs under the border.

Morning, all

re: #13 watching you tiny alien kittens are

People keep trying to shoot down Andy Schlafly's Conservapedia entry on why E=MC2 is "nonsense" and he keeps coming up with even more ridiculous arguments to defend his assertion.

In 2012, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary reported that globally every day there are 800 less atheists per day, 1,100 less non-religious (agnostic) people per day and 83,000 more people professing to be Christians per day.[41][42]

imagine! very soon the number of atheists will be negative eight thousand! then you'll see hahahahahabwahahahah

The TP is turning on the GOP.

Tea Party Leader: It's "Full-On War" in GOP"

As if they could not see this coming.

More great stuff over at newsmax: another bit of very bitter irony (as if they could not see this coming)

Report: Jailed CIA Informant Who Helped Find Bin Laden Tortured, Family Says

So what were those moral justifications of torture again, and where do they (not) apply?

re: #19 Sol Berdinowitz

The torture debate means little to the Pakistanis, unfortunately.

But it does (rightly) highlight the issue.

re: #20 researchok

The torture debate means little to the Pakistanis, unfortunately.

But it does (rightly) highlight the issue.

You mean the fact that it obviously means so little to us, too?

re: #21 Sol Berdinowitz

I don't know that it means little- we do discuss it, debate it and argue over it.

But our authorities still seem to accept it, openly or tacitly through our proxies, one of whoe was Pakistan....very bitter irony here.

re: #18 Sol Berdinowitz

The TP is turning on the GOP.

Tea Party Leader: It's "Full-On War" in GOP"

As if they could not see this coming.

Just more bad math...

Leaders of both parties, she says, are too focused on consolidating and maintaining their power rather than solving America's problems.

Her wish, she explained, is that Washington would cut one penny per year from each dollar spent and thereby balance the budget in five years. "Eighty percent of Americans could find a way to do that," Martin said, "but government cannot."

She repeated, "We're in a full-on war right now in the battle of ideas."

So she thinks a 5% decrease in spending will balance the budget? LOL

re: #18 Sol Berdinowitz

The TP is turning on the GOP.

Tea Party Leader: It's "Full-On War" in GOP"

As if they could not see this coming.

"Your loyalty is supposed to be to your country and you swear an oath to uphold the Constitution. You don't swear an oath to make sure that you cover Speaker Boehner's back.

You also don't swear an oath to some piss-ant about never raising taxes.

I'm old enough to remember how people freaked out when the Federal Annual
Budget first went over $1 trillion. Now we borrow more than that every year just to make up the shortfall in the $3.8 trillion budget. Times sure do change...

Well crap..It's 3:30am And I'm wide awake, I forgot to take my sleeping pill earlier..I just took it.
It's weird..My doc gave them to me because I have a million things going on and lay awake in bed thinking about life stuff and CANNOT sleep. It can be a bitch.
Hope everybody that is awake regards...

re: #27 A Man for all Seasons

Well crap..It's 3:30am And I'm wide awake, I forgot to take my sleeping pill earlier..I just took it.
It's weird..My doc gave them to me because I have a million things going on and lay awake in bed thinking about life stuff and CANNOT sleep. It can be a bitch.
Hope everybody that is awake regards...

Wish I had one to take. lol

re: #27 A Man for all Seasons

Well crap..It's 3:30am And I'm wide awake, I forgot to take my sleeping pill earlier..I just took it.
It's weird..My doc gave them to me because I have a million things going on and lay awake in bed thinking about life stuff and CANNOT sleep. It can be a bitch.
Hope everybody that is awake regards...

Read a BBC article on the fact that lots of people wake up in the middle of the night: it used to be considered normal: people got up, did things, even went out and about, and then went back to bed for their "second sleep"...

Unfortunately, our highly time-regulated modern lifestyle does not allow for these considerations and we think that waking up in middle of the night is somehow aberrant.

re: #28 Tigger2

Wish I had one to take. lol

LOL.. So the pill is starting to take effect..I just went to the bathroom and stumbled back to bed. Yawning soon to start.
Hope you are well.. So I got 30 minutes left in this world ( Mr. Sandman )
ya want to fight about something?
*wink*

re: #29 Sol Berdinowitz

Heck.. I don't worry about waking up in the middle of the night.. I don't sleep for days. My whole life changes this new year. I bought a little farm in the middle of nowhere..I'm going all Green acres on everybody and am so freaking jacked up about it.. I could go on for hours LOL

re: #31 A Man for all Seasons

Heck.. I don't worry about waking up in the middle of the night.. I don't sleep for days. My whole life changes this new year. I bought a little farm in the middle of nowhere..I'm going all Green acres on everybody and am so freaking jacked up about it.. I could go on for hours LOL

then just get up in the middle of the night and do things, then go back to bed when you're tired again. There is no greater luxury in life than being able to follow your own natural sleeping and waking patterns...

re: #31 A Man for all Seasons

Heck.. I don't worry about waking up in the middle of the night.. I don't sleep for days. My whole life changes this new year. I bought a little farm in the middle of nowhere..I'm going all Green acres on everybody and am so freaking jacked up about it.. I could go on for hours LOL

I do good to get 4 or 5 hrs of sleep a day.

depends on the time of year: in summer I can get by on five hours if I can find time for a brief afternoon nap of 20-30 mins...in winter I need a full eight hours and still don't feel rested...

If she freaked out over turkeys, then when is Pam gonna jump outta her skin over this one?

"Halal Homes" in the Netherlands

re: #35 Sol Berdinowitz

If she freaked out over turkeys, then when is Pam gonna jump outta her skin over this one?

"Halal Homes" in the Netherlands

There are a lot of houses in Brooklyn with two sinks in the kitchen, for Jews who keep kosher. It's very convenient, and adds to the value of the property. Who doesn't want a second sink? Some of these apartments also have room for two dishwashers.

re: #36 Vicious Babushka

It was actually one of the signs of being a crypto-Jew that could get you investigated in Mexico back in ye bad olde days, was having two sinks and too many pots and pans.

re: #37 Obdicut

It was actually one of the signs of being a crypto-Jew that could get you investigated in Mexico back in ye bad olde days, was having two sinks and too many pots and pans.

Is Ludwig still with us? His meltdown yesterday was very sad to watch.

The Zionist Mall is broken. One of our major suppliers changed their affiliate program and sent out the new linking code AFTER they already disabled the old code. Links to literally hundreds of products no longer work. I'm slowly restoring the links but it will probably take all weekend.

re: #38 Vicious Babushka

Is Ludwig still with us? His meltdown yesterday was very sad to watch.

I dunno. He melts down every once in awhile and then carries on regardless later as if he hadn't said a lot of what he said. I'm a little past caring at this point, given the stupid shit he's said about me.

Did I mention I'm teaching myself python? I just mastered the concept of using argv. Slow going, but it's turning out to be more fun to learn than I thought. I'm using a guide called "Learning Python the Hard Way" which appeals to my work ethic.

THIS IS WHY WE NEED UNIONS!

Twinkie CEO Admits Company Took Employees Pensions and Put It Toward Executive Pay | Alternet alternet.org/corporate-acco...

— Terri Harvey (@terri_georgia) December 12, 2012

re: #41 Vicious Babushka

And yet a lot of people will still mindlessly blame the unions for the failure of the company.

I really don't get where this bizarre belief in the munificence and generosity of corporations comes from in the right-wing. Over and over, they promogulate the belief that when companies are richer, they pass that money down to their workers or keep costs low or whatever. None of this is remotely true. Companies will pay their workers what the market will bear and sell product and services at what the market will bear.

If the corporation can make fifty thousand dollars a year off of you while paying you five thousand, they'll do that. If they can sell you a product that costs them $0.05 to make at $100, they'll do that.

The only ways to get corporations to pay workers better and to treat them better are regulation and labor unions. The latter is actually more capitalistic than the former; it transforms laborers into corporations on their own, negotiating with the company.

And yet somehow people see this as unfair. I just don't get it. I can't see how people can look at US labor history and not see how vital unions are to our prosperity.

re: #42 Obdicut

And yet a lot of people will still mindlessly blame the unions for the failure of the company.

I really don't get where this bizarre belief in the munificence and generosity of corporations comes from in the right-wing. Over and over, they promogulate the belief that when companies are richer, they pass that money down to their workers or keep costs low or whatever. None of this is remotely true. Companies will pay their workers what the market will bear and sell product and services at what the market will bear.

If the corporation can make fifty thousand dollars a year off of you while paying you five thousand, they'll do that. If they can sell you a product that costs them $0.05 to make at $100, they'll do that.

The only ways to get corporations to pay workers better and to treat them better are regulation and labor unions. The latter is actually more capitalistic than the former; it transforms laborers into corporations on their own, negotiating with the company.

And yet somehow people see this as unfair. I just don't get it. I can't see how people can look at US labor history and not see how vital unions are to our prosperity.

Yeah, I got into an argument last night with my "worser half." He has drank the wingnut koolaid about unions. I have worked in UAW shops from time to time, and even though I am non-union salaried, there is a huge difference between working at a UAW location and at a contract-salary location. The days off! And even if we did have to come in to work on UAW days off, time-and-a-half! Contract-salary shops don't have that.

And on the subject of worker abuse, wingnuts have this vile notion that Walmart workers are the lowest of the low, the scum of the earth who are so incompetent and worthless that they can't qualify for any other type of job (just like fast food workers) so therefore Walmart has the right to totally exploit and underpay them.

WTF?

Because the "reasoning" goes: if Walmart didn't employ these "losers" for less than minimum wage, they would cost the government EVEN MOAR WELFARE by not working at all.

*head desk*

re: #44 Vicious Babushka

I never really know if that's a lack of understanding of economics or just some brutal lack of empathy, some "Well at least I'm better than them" feeling.

So much of this conversation is distorted by the lack of universal health care in this country. If we had universal health care, then Wal-mart's practices would be far less-- though still exploitative.

I think a reduction to the absurd is useful here: Would it be okay to employ people for just room and board, and make them shop at the Company Store?

The problem is I'm afraid a lot of the modern GOP Ayn Rand afficianadoes would say "Yes!" enthusiastically.

re: #45 Obdicut

I never really know if that's a lack of understanding of economics or just some brutal lack of empathy, some "Well at least I'm better than them" feeling.

So much of this conversation is distorted by the lack of universal health care in this country. If we had universal health care, then Wal-mart's practices would be far less-- though still exploitative.

I think a reduction to the absurd is useful here: Would it be okay to employ people for just room and board, and make them shop at the Company Store?

The problem is I'm afraid a lot of the modern GOP Ayn Rand afficianadoes would say "Yes!" enthusiastically.

The argument is always the 19th century robber baron mentality: "Well if they don't like it, they are free to work elsewhere!"

re: #42 Obdicut

And yet a lot of people will still mindlessly blame the unions for the failure of the company.

I really don't get where this bizarre belief in the munificence and generosity of corporations comes from in the right-wing. Over and over, they promogulate the belief that when companies are richer, they pass that money down to their workers or keep costs low or whatever. None of this is remotely true. Companies will pay their workers what the market will bear and sell product and services at what the market will bear.

If the corporation can make fifty thousand dollars a year off of you while paying you five thousand, they'll do that. If they can sell you a product that costs them $0.05 to make at $100, they'll do that.

The only ways to get corporations to pay workers better and to treat them better are regulation and labor unions. The latter is actually more capitalistic than the former; it transforms laborers into corporations on their own, negotiating with the company.

And yet somehow people see this as unfair. I just don't get it. I can't see how people can look at US labor history and not see how vital unions are to our prosperity.

It's a bit like asking why does a Christian believe in creationism, despite all scientific evidence to the contrary. It's because it's an article of faith and calling it into question is to question the religion of capitalism itself. They've been taught for years that unbridled capitalism is the greatest driver of good in the free world. To them, capitalism cannot fail, it can only be failed. And they see unions as a sign of that failure, because they believe unions hold down exceptional workers and elevate lazy ones, creating a false equality that is totally against the ideals of capitalism.

re: #45 Obdicut

I never really know if that's a lack of understanding of economics or just some brutal lack of empathy, some "Well at least I'm better than them" feeling.

So much of this conversation is distorted by the lack of universal health care in this country. If we had universal health care, then Wal-mart's practices would be far less-- though still exploitative.

I think a reduction to the absurd is useful here: Would it be okay to employ people for just room and board, and make them shop at the Company Store?

The problem is I'm afraid a lot of the modern GOP Ayn Rand afficianadoes would say "Yes!" enthusiastically.

They'd not only agree with it, the crazier amongst them would argue that it's actually a form of charity, as the company is giving them everything they need to survive, and asking only for their hard work in return.

re: #48 Targetpractice

They'd not only agree with it, the crazier amongst them would argue that it's actually a form of charity, as the company plantation is giving them everything they need to survive, and asking only for their hard work in return.

We've heard that too.

re: #49 Vicious Babushka

We've heard that too.

Yep, it's a classic neo-Confederate one, that the plantation system was actually a "good" thing for the black man, because he got all his needs taken care of, the white masters were always so worried about the health of their slaves, and all that was asked was their hard work and obedience.

re: #48 Targetpractice

They'd not only agree with it, the crazier amongst them would argue that it's actually a form of charity, as the company is giving them everything they need to survive, and asking only for their hard work in return.

And yet when the inverse is pointed out-- that a worker is giving the corporation what it needs to be profitable, that worker's labor, and only asking for a fair wage in return-- shock and horror ensue.

This is why strikes are the power of the worker, and it's why corporations desperately try to quash strikes, which means quashing unions, which are the only things that can effectively organize strikes.

Labor is more fundamental to capitalism than wealth is. If you start with just capital, you can't get anywhere. If you start with labor, you can create capital.

Mitt Romney: "It's exciting to hear I can now build a factory where people sleep 12 to a room and earn 27c an hour in my beloved Michigan"

— The Daily Edge (@TheDailyEdge) December 12, 2012

re: #51 Obdicut

And yet when the inverse is pointed out-- that a worker is giving the corporation what it needs to be profitable, that worker's labor, and only asking for a fair wage in return-- shock and horror ensue.

This is why strikes are the power of the worker, and it's why corporations desperately try to quash strikes, which means quashing unions, which are the only things that can effectively organize strikes.

Yet the operative word is "fair," which is like garlic to a vampire. To a "free market" believer, it's the corporation that's doing the giving, not the worker. The worker is just an interchangeable cog in the machine, that even a chimp could be trained to do the work he does. If he's unhappy with the wages he's paid, then there's plenty of other work out there for him to seek out. But the executive, he's invaluable, because even if he's done nothing but cost the company money, the "experience" he has is key to profitability. He must be pampered, lest he seek out a bigger honeypot.

Hence why they hate unions and hate the idea of collective bargaining, because it puts a value on labor that is equal to the executives. It forces them to acknowledge that without workers, those executives are useless because you can't give orders to an empty shop floor. And that just won't work, because you gotta have a chain of command, and the labor has always gotta be at the bottom of that chain.

It's rather funny that we rebelled against, amongst other things, the idea of aristocracy and against divine right. Yet here we are, 2 centuries later, with our own aristocracy that defines itself not so much by royal titles or patents of nobility as the size of its bank account. And capitalism has become our religion, one that the wealthy elite use to keep us in line by arguing that our attempts to buck the system are tantamount to heresy against a deity created for the purpose of keeping them in power.

re: #54 Targetpractice

It's also why automation can go either way. It can make a factory safer, aid in productivity, help reduce worker fatigue, or it can simply replace labor. A lot of the chemical plants in the US employ a tiny number of people for their output because chemistry is, well, chemistry: you get a bunch of tanks, you get computerized systems that regulate flow, heat, mixing, etc, and it'll come out right every time. The workers are really just there to supervise the machines if something goes wrong.

To many people, this is an ideal or a great thing. The problem, of course, is that the profit from this operation is simply flowing to the capital-holders, with a tiny amount going to whatever workers they have. It's using natural resources-- which have got to, in some way, belong to everyone-- to produce profit through the use of capital and exploitation of natural resources.

Kant's premise is good to apply here: What if all companies were like that? The economy would collapse, because there'd be nobody with money to buy the products being made by these perfect-machine corporations.

re: #56 Obdicut

It's also why automation can go either way. It can make a factory safer, aid in productivity, help reduce worker fatigue, or it can simply replace labor. A lot of the chemical plants in the US employ a tiny number of people for their output because chemistry is, well, chemistry: you get a bunch of tanks, you get computerized systems that regulate flow, heat, mixing, etc, and it'll come out right every time. The workers are really just there to supervise the machines if something goes wrong.

To many people, this is an ideal or a great thing. The problem, of course, is that the profit from this operation is simply flowing to the capital-holders, with a tiny amount going to whatever workers they have. It's using natural resources-- which have got to, in some way, belong to everyone-- to produce profit through the use of capital and exploitation of natural resources.

Kant's premise is good to apply here: What if all companies were like that? The economy would collapse, because there'd be nobody with money to buy the products being made by these perfect-machine corporations.

Thing is that it's not a question of "if" so much as "when." The ideal is a system where self-replicating machines not only build more of themselves, but also repair themselves and even replace themselves when they reach the end of their lifespan. We're creating a future scenario where human input is virtually removed from the equation, besides the initial programmers and specialized repairmen whose job it is to do repairs the machines can't do themselves.

When that becomes the case, how does capitalism survive? We like to tell ourselves that, with the robots doing all the work, we'll be free to engage in leisure and want for nothing. But how do we do that if we're all broke? Who buys the products that the machines are making when only the people owning those machines have any money?

Our Lie of the Year: the Romney campaign's claim that Jeep was moving production to China. bit.ly/UBaOyb

— PolitiFact (@politifact) December 12, 2012

re: #58 Gus

[Embedded content]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to say that out of the contenders they put up, that one seems one of the tamer ones. Was it a lie? Sure. The biggest one told this year? No.

Hell, even their reader poll agrees with me. Romney's Jeep bit ranked third, behind Limbaugh saying Obamacare is the "largest tax increase in history" and Romney's infamous "We built that!" charade.

re: #58 Gus

What a weird choice. It seems like they're picking it not because of the gravity of the untruth, but because it got talked about a lot and may have done him some damage in the midwest.

re: #60 Targetpractice

Hell, even their reader poll agrees with me. Romney's Jeep bit ranked third, behind Limbaugh saying Obamacare is the "largest tax increase in history" and Romney's infamous "We built that!" charade.

I've got grievances!

//

re: #60 Targetpractice

I'd say the lie of the year is the GOP's insistence that AGW isn't happening and we don't have to do anything about it.

re: #61 Obdicut

What a weird choice. It seems like they're picking it not because of the gravity of the untruth, but because it got talked about a lot and may have done him some damage in the midwest.

Considering the choices available, my guess is because the target is one that nobody will care to defend. If they'd gone with Limbaugh's whopper, they'd have him bloviating about how evil they are as liberals by lunchtime.

re: #57 Targetpractice

Thing is that it's not a question of "if" so much as "when." The ideal is a system where self-replicating machines not only build more of themselves, but also repair themselves and even replace themselves when they reach the end of their lifespan. We're creating a future scenario where human input is virtually removed from the equation, besides the initial programmers and specialized repairmen whose job it is to do repairs the machines can't do themselves.

When that becomes the case, how does capitalism survive? We like to tell ourselves that, with the robots doing all the work, we'll be free to engage in leisure and want for nothing. But how do we do that if we're all broke? Who buys the products that the machines are making when only the people owning those machines have any money?

Add another twist - the 3d printer. As the systems become more sophisticated they reduce the need for many of the large production plants. Buy the bricks (various raw material feed stock), download the recipe/pattern, start the run, a day later you're using the widget.

One more wrecking ball for capitalism as we know it.

re: #65 kirkspencer

Add another twist - the 3d printer. As the systems become more sophisticated they reduce the need for many of the large production plants. Buy the bricks (various raw material feed stock), download the recipe/pattern, start the run, a day later you're using the widget.

One more wrecking ball for capitalism as we know it.

And even the bricks are becoming increasingly mechanized. Was reading a story in Popular Sci about home-brew plastic recycling, which can turn your water bottles and old toys into plastic resin to pump into domestic 3d printers.

Yiddish version of "Gangnam Style" (Embedding disabled, you may have to click through to Youtube to view it)

What occurred to me as I was watching the union debate unfold in Michigan, is that for all the talk Republicans have been making about there not being enough fair-skinned babies in this world, they're cutting away the financial base of the one demographic that is overwhelmingly white!

In water news...

"It's something that future generations may question." EPA lets industry pollute underground reservoirs: propub.ca/QSTYPd

— ProPublica (@ProPublica) December 12, 2012

A new Environmental Working Group report exposes the nasty state of water in agriculture's heartland: mojo.ly/Xb5C6b

— Mother Jones (@MotherJones) December 12, 2012

re: #68 dragonath

What occurred to me as I was watching the union debate unfold in Michigan, is that for all the talk Republicans have been making about there not being enough fair-skinned babies in this world, they're cutting away the financial base of the one demographic that is overwhelmingly white!

But made sure to spare the cops and firefighters, because those are two unions they know always endorse the Republican in a race.

re: #13 watching you tiny alien kittens are

People keep trying to shoot down Andy Schlafly's Conservapedia entry on why E=MC2 is "nonsense" and he keeps coming up with even more ridiculous arguments to defend his assertion.

Christianity is not a religion, it's a philosophy!

Mornin' all...one by one they fall into line...

Nevada Gov. Brian Sandoval is the very first Republican governor to opt into the Medicaid expansion. bit.ly/SUW01e

— Sarah Kliff (@sarahkliff) December 12, 2012

Idaho Gov. Butch Otter announces plans for a state-based exchange, pending legislative approval. One of very few R governors to do so.

— Sarah Kliff (@sarahkliff) December 11, 2012

re: #72 darthstar

Mornin' all...one by one they fall into line...

[Embedded content]

And this is why...

New post: White House to the states: On Medicaid expansion, its all or nothing wapo.st/W0ErMC

— Sarah Kliff (@sarahkliff) December 10, 2012

It's a sad sign when even Joe Scarborough thinks you're full of shit:

MSNBC Anchors Laugh As Michigan Governor Claims Union-Busting Is Good For Workers

On Wednesday, the hosts MSNBC’s Morning Joe laughed off Gov. Rick Snyder’s (R-MI) claims that the state’s recently-enacted right-to-work law could protect and strengthen unions by encouraging them to show more value to workers, interrupting the governor in bewilderment as he explained his argument.

Snyder appeared on the show less than 12 hours after signing two separate bills allowing public and private union members to opt out of paying union dues, while benefiting from union contracts, and defended the controversial measures. He characterized the law as benefiting workers and unions become more valuable.

re: #74 Targetpractice

Yeah, because if you can choose not to pay for something and still get the benefit of it, you totally will. And it'll be good for the institution, too, because they'll want to do better so that you'll decide to pay them because hey look a job creator.

What pathetic logic.

re: #75 Obdicut

Yeah, because if you can choose not to pay for something and still get the benefit of it, you totally will. And it'll be good for the institution, too, because they'll want to do better so that you'll decide to pay them because hey look a job creator.

What pathetic logic.

I had a wingnut actually put up the same argument yesterday, which is that unions thrive in RtW states, because it makes them "competitive" and means they have offer "value" to workers. Yet, due to federal regulations, the only thing that I know of that a union is not obligated to do for you is pay you if you're terminated wrongfully. They still have to fight for your job and plead your case, even paying for your representation during the proceedings.

Good resource from @mmfa: Myths and facts about "right-to-work" laws ow.ly/g2lXh

— Progress Michigan (@ProgressMich) December 12, 2012

re: #72 darthstar

It's all about the politics and has little to do with expanding access to insurance. They're making a political calculation about what will help them most. Those that are choosing to go ahead with the exchanges are taking advantage of federal funds that assist with those efforts and that they'll have a say in the process.

Those that aren't going along with the program and are instead opting to let the feds do the exchanges will see it as an opportunity to bitch about how the feds did such a poor job implementing the exchanges and use that as an excuse for trying to get them overturned legislatively (seeing how they failed to do so judicially).

Yet, it's likely that the exchanges will be successful in opening up new insurance opportunities for those who haven't had access to insurance in the past.

Watch for these same folks to complain that the exchanges aren't getting as many people as expected as a sign of failure or other similar metrics to indicate that the PPACA failed, even though the Massachusetts expanded insurance and is the model on which the PPACA was based.

This is out of date, irrelevant, and awesome:

A total destruction of Kevin Smith's godawful "Chasing Amy."

How is the day going so far?

re: #78 lawhawk

It also makes fiscal sense for the states as it costs them nothing for three years. Meantime, they move people from state funded programs into Medicaid and save even more. When they do have to start paying, it will be a small portion of what the Feds are giving them. Really not a significant impact at all.

States not opting in will eventually do so. According to one of the articles linked above, only six states initially signed on to Medicaid in 1965.

re: #75 Obdicut

Yeah, because if you can choose not to pay for something and still get the benefit of it, you totally will. And it'll be good for the institution, too, because they'll want to do better so that you'll decide to pay them because hey look a job creator.

What pathetic logic.

The further I get into The Big Rich the more digusted I am with big money.

Good morning lizards!

re: #79 Obdicut

This is out of date, irrelevant, and awesome:

A total destruction of Kevin Smith's godawful "Chasing Amy."

Ouch.

Instead of coming across as edgy, groundbreaking, daring or whatever other stupid adjectives have been misapplied to these farces, these scenes only reveal that Smith's obsession over sexual perversion comes from a place of deprivation, not experience.

I had a conservative friend tell me the other day that there are only two powers granted to the Federal Government in the constitution 1) national defense and 2) to regulate interstate commerce.

I just kept my mouth shut.

If it is brought up again, I'm going to ask about voting rights, collecting tariffs, and the Bill of Rights.

re: #85 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I had a conservative friend tell me the other day that there are only two powers granted to the Federal Government in the constitution 1) national defense and 2) to regulate interstate commerce.

I just kept my mouth shut.

If it is brought up again, I'm going to ask about voting rights, collecting tariffs, and the Bill of Rights.

They do tend to get stuck on very stupid talking points. It's a waste of time to argue with them.

re: #86 Vicious Babushka

They do tend to get stuck on very stupid talking points. It's a waste of time to argue with them.

Maybe I"ll pull my Pocket Constitution out of my purse and ask him to show me where it says that.

re: #51 Obdicut

And yet when the inverse is pointed out-- that a worker is giving the corporation what it needs to be profitable, that worker's labor, and only asking for a fair wage in return-- shock and horror ensue.

This is why strikes are the power of the worker, and it's why corporations desperately try to quash strikes, which means quashing unions, which are the only things that can effectively organize strikes.

I didn't hear that shock and horror when the NFL refs went on strike.

Apparently the Breitbartians look to try to milk the "violent assault" on Crowder yesterday for all its worth. He went on Hannity last night to challenge his "attacker" to make a "choice": surrender and face legal charges or a challenge to an MMA match.

And yeah, they put a picture up of Crowder from his appearance last night, and I gotta say, I don't think I've ever seen a more unblemished face after such a horrific "attack."

Sucks hearing about Ravi Shankar. Long life I know but man do I appreciate the influence he had on George and the rest of the Beatles. Sitar's such an awesome instrument.

re: #13 watching you tiny alien kittens are

People keep trying to shoot down Andy Schlafly's Conservapedia entry on why E=MC2 is "nonsense" and he keeps coming up with even more ridiculous arguments to defend his assertion.

He's like a moth drawn to the flame of Burning Stupid.

re: #90 HappyWarrior

Sucks hearing about Ravi Shankar. Long life I know but man do I appreciate the influence he had on George and the rest of the Beatles. Sitar's such an awesome instrument.

92?

re: #89 Targetpractice

Apparently the Breitbartians look to try to milk the "violent assault" on Crowder yesterday for all its worth. He went on Hannity last night to challenge his "attacker" to make a "choice": surrender and face legal charges or a challenge to an MMA match.

And yeah, they put a picture up of Crowder from his appearance last night, and I gotta say, I don't think I've ever seen a more unblemished face after such a horrific "attack."

NOT IN THE FACE!

re: #92 Holidays are Family Fun Time

92?

Long life as I said but still sucks.

Pajamas Media/Breitbart/Fox News/Koch family rent boy and meat slab Steven Crowder waded into the union protests in Michigan yesterday hoping to get punched in his very punchable stupid face while on camera and he was successful and now conservatives have something to cheer abouit besides controlling the World Wide Web internet government.

Steven Crowder’s Face Is The New Kenneth Gladney

re: #95 Gus

Steven Crowder’s Face Is The New Kenneth Gladney

I don't know who the Old Kenneth Gladney is.

re: #96 Vicious Babushka

I don't know who the Old Kenneth Gladney is.

Sounds like the name of an Irish Whiskey.

re: #89 Targetpractice

Apparently the Breitbartians look to try to milk the "violent assault" on Crowder yesterday for all its worth. He went on Hannity last night to challenge his "attacker" to make a "choice": surrender and face legal charges or a challenge to an MMA match.

And yeah, they put a picture up of Crowder from his appearance last night, and I gotta say, I don't think I've ever seen a more unblemished face after such a horrific "attack."

Like a tinpot dictator appearing in a grandiloquent dress uniform and proclaiming himself a great general. I'd love to see that guy get into a MMA match with a shipbuilder or auto worker. After a minute he'd be screaming like Chris Tucker to give up.

re: #85 Holidays are Family Fun Time

The Bill of Rights is a list of limitation on government power, not a list of government powers. It identifies individual rights that the government cannot breach.

But even the notion that there are 2 powers granted to the federal government is absolutely and unequivocably wrong.

See article 1, Clause 8, which sets out 18 specific and broad powers:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

That last bit is the most important and powerful part of the Constitution as it imbues Congress with tremendous powers that go beyond what is specifically spelled out in the Constitution (including areas that the Founders would never have contemplated - like setting out frequencies used for telecommunications, etc.).

re: #96 Vicious Babushka

I don't know who the Old Kenneth Gladney is.

That whole SEIU incident. I had to Google but I remember the visuals more or less.

re: #99 lawhawk

I have a feeling he has some algorithm for including most of the "powers" under "interstate commerce". I was trying to think of think of things that squarely fell outside of that like voting and the Bill of Rights.

Ah, it will probably never come-up again.

re: #100 Gus

That whole SEIU incident. I had to Google but I remember the visuals more or less.

OK found it.

re: #101 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I have a feeling he has some algorithm for including most of the "powers" under "interstate commerce". I was trying to think of think of things that squarely fell outside of that like voting and the Bill of Rights.

Ah, it will probably never come-up again.

Still a good bit of in formation to have in your mind if needed. It's useful for smacking down both wingnuts and moonbats.

re: #99 lawhawk

I should just ask about gun rights if it comes-up again. As he is a big gun nut. But he'd probably categorize that under National Defense.

re: #102 Vicious Babushka

OK found it.

Was going to link to that one. Feeling lazy this morning.

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

Still a good bit of in formation to have in your mind if needed. It's useful for smacking down both wingnuts and moonbats.

Thus I carry my Pocket Constitution everywhere. Me and Senator Byrd.

re: #105 Gus

Was going to link to that one. Feeling lazy this morning.

Not you!

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Like a tinpot dictator appearing in a grandiloquent dress uniform and proclaiming himself a great general. I'd love to see that guy get into a MMA match with a shipbuilder or auto worker. After a minute he'd be screaming like Chris Tucker to give up.

Crowder's more than likely counting on his "attacker" not to take the challenge, because if the guy came forward and submitted himself to criminal charges, Crowder would be up shit creek. He'd have to submit the full, unedited video as evidence. He'd also have to contend with witnesses who'd tell a story of a punk who stepped into a crowd and did everything he could to invoke violence.

re: #107 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Not you!

My empire of dirt.

re: #109 Gus

My empire of dirt.

Depending on where that dirt is, you could be sitting on a nice nest egg.

gotta go,

have a great day all!

re: #110 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Depending on where that dirt is, you could be sitting on a nice nest egg.

I wish.

re: #95 Gus

Steven Crowder’s Face Is The New Kenneth Gladney

Oh dear...

Anyway, this is shaping up to be a quite a year for young Steven Crowder who also recently publicly announced that he had finally fucked a real live woman.

re: #113 darthstar

Oh dear...

Yeah, I saw that. Pretty goofy.

Here is the new website urging a no vote against Egypt's proposed constitution bit.ly/SaEpUF

— Borzou Daragahi (@borzou) December 12, 2012

re: #108 Targetpractice

Crowder's more than likely counting on his "attacker" not to take the challenge, because if the guy came forward and submitted himself to criminal charges, Crowder would be up shit creek. He'd have to submit the full, unedited video as evidence. He'd also have to contend with witnesses who'd tell a story of a punk who stepped into a crowd and did everything he could to invoke violence.

Would that fall under the concept of "fighting words"?

re: #116 Dark_Falcon

Would that fall under the concept of "fighting words"?

Very likely. I imagine the judge would just shake his head when the video got played for the jury and it showed this "brave" fellow getting up in union workers faces and arguing with them.

Van Hollen: Boehner May Be Waiting Til After He's Re-Elected Speaker To Cut Budget Deal livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/van-holl... via @brianbeutler

— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) December 12, 2012

re: #108 Targetpractice

Crowder's more than likely counting on his "attacker" not to take the challenge, because if the guy came forward and submitted himself to criminal charges, Crowder would be up shit creek. He'd have to submit the full, unedited video as evidence. He'd also have to contend with witnesses who'd tell a story of a punk who stepped into a crowd and did everything he could to invoke violence.

I'd be willing to bet that Crowder made sure his taunting wasn't caught on film. That way, if the guy does come forward, any video submitted for evidence will only show our "hero" being assaulted without provocation.

re: #117 Targetpractice

Very likely. I imagine the judge would just shake his head when the video got played for the jury and it showed this "brave" fellow getting up in union workers faces and arguing with them.

Depending on what the whole of the evidence might show, it is possible the charges would be dismissed. In fact if Crowder was aggressive enough with his taunting it is possible he's the one who would face charges. FWIW I doubt the latter will happen, but it would not be the first time he's overreached.

re: #119 Mattand

I'd be willing to bet that Crowder made sure his taunting wasn't caught on film. That way, if the guy does come forward, any video submitted for evidence will only show our "hero" being assaulted without provocation.

That would assume that none of the unionists filmed or took photographs of the incident. That would be a stupid bet to make, since if Crowder got caught by unexpected photos after he lied about his provocations he'd be guilty of perjury.

re: #106 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Thus I carry my Pocket Constitution everywhere. Me and Senator Byrd.

I carried a copy when I worked for the census. Very helpful to show a few folks that, yes, the census really is in there. Maroons.

re: #121 Dark_Falcon

That would assume that none of the unionists filmed or took photographs of the incident. That would be a stupid bet to make, since if Crowder got caught by unexpected photos after he lied about his provocations he'd be guilty of perjury.

Dkos is still pushing the theory that the tent collapse was an inside job by the wingnuts themselves
Fox News uses Breitbart-style video editing from Michigan RTW rally to show "union thug brutality"

The second video is new to me but shows no evidence of the wingnuts weakening their own tent. Despite the claims by union members there's no evidence. It's not like there was a shortage of cameras around. Did Crowder use the protest to get a reaction from the protesters? Sure, but the reaction was genuine and the protesters became unwilling dupes in generating their own bad publicity.

Good morning lizards!

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Dkos is still pushing the theory that the tent collapse was an inside job by the wingnuts themselves
Fox News uses Breitbart-style video editing from Michigan RTW rally to show "union thug brutality"

The second video is new to me but shows no evidence of the wingnuts weakening their own tent. Despite the claims by union members there's no evidence. It's not like there was a shortage of cameras around. Did Crowder use the protest to get a reaction from the protesters? Sure, but the reaction was genuine and the protesters became unwilling dupes in generating their own bad publicity.

NO MOAR RAPEY STABBY. PEPPER SPRAY 'EM ALL!

Benghazi Daily Kos

re: #125 Vicious Babushka

NO MOAR RAPEY STABBY. PEPPER SPRAY 'EM ALL!

That's only fun to do to hippies!!

////

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Dkos is still pushing the theory that the tent collapse was an inside job by the wingnuts themselves
Fox News uses Breitbart-style video editing from Michigan RTW rally to show "union thug brutality"

The second video is new to me but shows no evidence of the wingnuts weakening their own tent. Despite the claims by union members there's no evidence. It's not like there was a shortage of cameras around. Did Crowder use the protest to get a reaction from the protesters? Sure, but the reaction was genuine and the protesters became unwilling dupes in generating their own bad publicity.

There were reports of women & children under the tent when they knocked the tent down.

re: #127 sattv4u2

That's only fun to do to hippies!!

////

Fuck hippies.

After they shower.

re: #128 NJDhockeyfan

There were reports of women & children under the tent when they knocked the tent down.

And those reports have more substance than the reports of an inside job?

re: #125 Vicious Babushka

NO MOAR RAPEY STABBY. PEPPER SPRAY 'EM ALL!

That's not what Killgore is saying. With OWS, he indefatigably defended the NYPD and laid full blame for incidents on the protestors (as did I, truth to tell). In this matter, he is saying that some blame belongs to both parties and that the union men were indeed provoked but did genuinely demolish that tent.

Don't you care about the children?!?!?!

re: #129 b_sharp

Fuck hippies.

After they shower.

or while they shower!!!

re: #128 NJDhockeyfan

There were reports of women & children under the tent when they knocked the tent down.

Women and children! Children! Don't you care about the children!?!?! Seriously. If they brought children there what the fuck were these idiots thinking about bringing children and putting them in a tent whose objective was to tease the union protesters. These assholes set up an anti-union tent in the middle of a pre-planned union protest in the 10s of thousands.

re: #134 Gus

Women and children! Children! Don't you care about the children!?!?! Seriously. If they brought children there what the fuck were these idiots thinking about bringing children and putting them in a tent whose objective was to tease the union protesters. These assholes set up an anti-union tent in the middle of a pre-planned union protest in the 10s of thousands.

Entertainment value.

re: #128 NJDhockeyfan

There were reports of women & children under the tent when they knocked the tent down.

I didn't see any kids but there were a few women in there. Either way the tent wasn't really a big deal. The punches were pretty bad but even that wasn't a serious incident and nobody was seriously injured. I really don't have a whole lot of sympathy for either side in this incident but the unions ended up with the short end of the stick in the public relations department. So it goes.

re: #134 Gus

Women and children! Children! Don't you care about the children!?!?! Seriously. If they brought children there what the fuck were these idiots thinking about bringing children and putting them in a tent whose objective was to tease the union protesters. These assholes set up an anti-union tent in the middle of a pre-planned union protest in the 10s of thousands.

The last I knew protests are allowed in the US by anyone regardless of which side you are on. Pitching a tent is not 'teasing' the union protesters and definitely doesn't give the union people a ticket to destroy their tent.

re: #134 Gus

Women and children! Children! Don't you care about the children!?!?! Seriously. If they brought children there what the fuck were these idiots thinking about bringing children and putting them in a tent whose objective was to tease the union protesters. These assholes set up an anti-union tent in the middle of a pre-planned union protest in the 10s of thousands.

Perhaps the children were there for crowder's own version of Pallywood, allowing him to showcase "the depraved indifference to the lives of children shown by the HOWLING UNION-LEFT MOB!!1".

re: #137 NJDhockeyfan

The last I knew protests are allowed in the US by anyone regardless of which side you are on. Pitching a tent is not 'teasing' the union protesters and definitely doesn't give the union people a ticket to destroy their tent.

Sure it is. It was provocation. But hey, I can understand. You side with Crowder and the rest of the Breitbart crew.

Anyway. Seems like the morning wingnut wave has started so I'll be back later.

re: #137 NJDhockeyfan

The last I knew protests are allowed in the US by anyone regardless of which side you are on. Pitching a tent is not 'teasing' the union protesters and definitely doesn't give the union people a ticket to destroy their tent.

They didn't merely just pitch a tent. The tent wasn't destroyed either.

That's disingenuous hackery.

There was no civil or criminal law broken by what they did. But they did ask for trouble, they wanted it, they got just enough to make crappy little propaganda videos.

Did someone mention the word 'moonbat'?

Sean Penn attends vigil for cancer-stricken Hugo Chavez

The Oscar winner made a surprise appearance at the gathering in La Paz, which was held as Chavez undergoes his fourth cancer surgery in Cuba.

Taking the stage in a Venezuelan flag T-shirt, Penn told the crowd, "He's one of the most important forces we've had in this planet. And I'll wish him nothing but that great strength he has shown over and over again. I do it in love, and I do it in gratitude.

"I just want to say, from my very American point of view, of my friend President Chavez: it is only possible to be so inspiring as he is, as a two-way street. And he would say that his inspiration is the people."

re: #140 Gus

"wingnut WAVE"

Hell,,, there's hardly enough for a good ripple!!

re: #142 NJDhockeyfan

Did someone mention the word 'moonbat'?

Sean Penn attends vigil for cancer-stricken Hugo Chavez

Sean Penn is indeed a moonbat, but I'm going to do the Christian thing:

I hope that his cancer gives Hugo Chavez cause to repent of his misdeeds and that he becomes a better man and leader for it. Even if that does not happen, I pray he is healed of his affliction and that, failing that, that he die peacefully and without great suffering.

Errand time
Then brunch with the fetching Mrs Satty
Then son satty MAY grace us with 5 minutes of his time filling us in how how his 1st semester of college went!!

re: #142 NJDhockeyfan

Did someone mention the word 'moonbat'?

Sean Penn attends vigil for cancer-stricken Hugo Chavez

You caught us. Our revered leader, and Speaker for Lefties, Sean Penn has some idiotic ideas.

We're all guilty of the same moonbat shit by association. The socialist version of 'Six Degrees of Separation'.

re: #143 sattv4u2

"wingnut WAVE"

Hell,,, there's hardly enough for a good ripple!!

Image: 2515262428_ae90bed9ae.jpg

So, what's the Perfect Storm event for pushing all the buttons at once?

A deranged anti-union activist shooting a Code Pink protester during a Anti-Israel rally poorly planned to conflict with the Mummer's Parade and an impromptu SEIU march?

/// Off to lunch.

There was a fella who owns a hot dog stand in Lansing, Mi. Yesterday protesters attacked and destroyed his business for no particular reason.

Early today, Clint Tarver, known as "The Hot Dog Guy" here in Lansing had his business attacked and destroyed by out of line and out of control protesters near the Capitol.

Everyone who has passed the hot dog cart knows what a kind and caring individual Clint is. He never fails to bestow a smile or friendly greeting. In no way he he provoke this attack, nor any of the behavior displayed toward him.

They raised enough money yesterday to help this guy replace his hot dog stand and get his business going again.

re: #149 NJDhockeyfan

You mean union thugs. Have the fucking sack to say what you really mean.

re: #150 Kronocide

You mean union thugs. Have the fucking sack to say what you really mean.

It doesn't say union thugs. Do you know something I don't know?

re: #149 NJDhockeyfan

There was a fella who owns a hot dog stand in Lansing, Mi. Yesterday protesters attacked and destroyed his business for no particular reason.

They raised enough money yesterday to help this guy replace his hot dog stand and get his business going again.

guilty of serving wieners to the enemy

Clint was serving hot dogs via his catering equipment yesterday at the APF tent which was torn down. He was much more concerned about the others, and particularly helped to get the women out of the tent. It was when he returned to gather his equipment that the taunts and racial slurs began. He says the working people did not respect the working man. He was not there to be political; he was just there to serve.

Okay, this is about the weirdest bit of rock news I've heard in, well, probably ever:

Paul McCartney to replace Kurt Cobain in Nirvana reunion

Might be just a rumor, but... still. Kinda weird.

re: #149 NJDhockeyfan

There was a fella who owns a hot dog stand in Lansing, Mi. Yesterday protesters attacked and destroyed his business for no particular reason.

They raised enough money yesterday to help this guy replace his hot dog stand and get his business going again.

OK, that's a different matter entirely. Sadly though, its something crowds do when they get nasty. There are always people in any group of tens of thousands who unless restrained will use such an opportunity to smash things and take what they want without saying "please". The human mind is closer to Hobbs' State of Nature than most people realize.

re: #151 NJDhockeyfan

It doesn't say union thugs. Do you know something I don't know?

Not saying what you really mean. Noted.

re: #141 Kronocide

They didn't merely just pitch a tent. The tent wasn't destroyed either.

That's disingenuous hackery.

There was no civil or criminal law broken by what they did. But they did ask for trouble, they wanted it, they got just enough to make crappy little propaganda videos.

They had reserved that space for the tent before the protesters showed up. Attacking it was uncalled for.

...Mounted police made their way through the crowd at around noon after a group of protesters reportedly tore down a large ten maintained by American's For Prosperity Michigan, which reserved the space to support the right-to-work legislation.

"We had been contacted by that group that they had three or four people that were actually trapped underneath the tent," said Lt. Mike Shaw. "Two of them were in wheelchairs and there was also a propane tank in there. So we had to send troopers out, and naturally, the crowd was not too receptive."

Several protesters booed and heckled mounted troopers who responded to the incident, calling them scabs and refusing to allow them through the crowd.

Scott Hagerstrom, executive director of AFP-Michigan, said his group had already ceded its reserved spot on the Capitol steps when protesters began ripping out support wires holding up the tent.

"They couldn't engage in a civil debate, and it's very unfortunate," Hagestrom said as he stood atop the fallen remnants.

"My computer's in here somewhere. More importantly, there were people inside, but I think we got everyone safe."

State police did not arrest anyone during the incident, and Shaw said that most protesters have acted respectfully and peacefully today.

People in wheelchairs? Nice job idiots.

There was a fella who owns a hot dog stand in Lansing, Mi. Yesterday protesters attacked and destroyed his business for no particular reason.

So the fallout from this horrific tent destruction event destroyed his business?

You should write for Breitbart.

re: #156 NJDhockeyfan

People in wheelchairs? Nice job idiots.

Yeah, it really does seem like the AFP tried to put as many vulnerable people in harm's way as possible.

Looks like we got ourselves a nice lil' wingnut outrage going today.

Hann11ty must be proud.
/

Sadly this is just more counterproductive behavior from protesters. The debate becomes about bad behavior, punching people, tearing down someone's tent and fucking up a hot dog stand. I'm agnostic on the "right to work law" and willing to be persuaded either way. However the discussion becomes about defending or excusing bad behavior from protesters. It's a lost opportunity.

re: #159 makeitstop

They've really got outrage generation down to a science.

The cops aren't impressed:

"We have not made any arrests at all," [Lt. Mike Shaw] said. "The crowd has been more than fine. They've been obeying with the fire marshall says (in terms of building capacity). People have been coming in and out of the Capitol exercising their constitutional rights. We've been perfectly fine with them -- just that one small incident."

re: #152 Killgore Trout

guilty of serving wieners to the enemy

Here is a nice video about him.

It's sad to see some lefties on here that find no displeasure in the fact that this guy had his business destroyed yesterday. All he was doing was selling hot dogs.

re: #160 Killgore Trout

It'd probably be easier at this point if you made a list of the things you're not 'agnostic' or 'undecided' or 'unmoved' or 'in the middle' on.

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Sadly

re: #162 NJDhockeyfan

It's sad

Somebody get some tissues here STAT!

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Sadly this is just more counterproductive behavior from protesters. The debate becomes about bad behavior, punching people, tearing down someone's tent and fucking up a hot dog stand.

The dude's hotdog stand got fucked up? How did you surmise that from the single picture of Tarver either picking up or breaking down a folding table and simple narrative of destruction and racial epithets from the motivated source?

Breitbart Brigade. This is ridiculous.

So the final count is:

27 pregnant women
18 disabled toddlers
569 elderly WW2 veterans
And a hot dog vendor in a pear tree!

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Sadly this is just more counterproductive behavior from protesters. The debate becomes about bad behavior, punching people, tearing down someone's tent and fucking up a hot dog stand. I'm agnostic on the "right to work law" and willing to be persuaded either way. However the discussion becomes about defending or excusing bad behavior from protesters. It's a lost opportunity.

Once some gets hurt or something gets destroyed, the human mind naturally focuses on that and ignores what a newly passed law says. Our minds are set up to focus on things that are immediate and visceral, not on a law that won't take effect for 3 months. But that what Crowder at al are counting on. Those wingnuts are trying to focus the spotlight on the violence and away from the passage of the RtW law.

re: #160 Killgore Trout

By the way, as a 'classical liberal' you should be adamantly FOR right-to-work laws, and highly anti-union. Unless, of course, calling yourself 'classical liberal' was just out of intellectual laziness and didn't have to do with you holding actual classical liberal positions.

So where's the video of Tarver's attackers destroying his cart and making racist slurs?

Crowder was right there, he missed out on some Outrage Gold.

re: #166 Vicious Babushka

So the final count is:

27 pregnant women
18 disabled toddlers
569 elderly WW2 veterans
And a hot dog vendor in a pear tree!

Pregnant women, children, elderly people... Doesn't that kind of remind you of the kind of 'Pallywood'-style setup we've seen from Hamas?

re: #167 Dark_Falcon

But that what Crowder at al are counting on. Those wingnuts are trying to focus the spotlight on the violence and away from the passage of the RtW law.

Exactly. They are dancing to his tune.

re: #162 NJDhockeyfan

Here is a nice video about him.

[Embedded content]

It's sad to see some lefties on here that find no displeasure in the fact that this guy had his business destroyed yesterday. All he was doing was selling hot dogs.

Your concern for him is so touching. I'm sure you'd be posting the same thing if a "right wing thug" had knocked over his hot dog stand.

re: #162 NJDhockeyfan

Here is a nice video about him.
It's sad to see some lefties on here that find no displeasure in the fact that this guy had his business destroyed yesterday. All he was doing was selling hot dogs.

You are a fucking Breitbart hack.

There's no evidence that his business was destroyed therefore your noted lack of displeasure from lefties is about as false as your objectivity.

You have accepted a specious narrative founded upon a narrow thread of a factiod and are further expounding on what happened. The only difference between what is happening here on this thread and Breitbart is they are better at it and make $ on it.

Fucking disgusting.

re: #171 Killgore Trout

Exactly. They are dancing to his tune.

You may be misunderstanding me: The wingnuts are selling a false image to the world. The whole purpose of Crowder's exercise was to blacken the image of the protesting unionists and divert attention the state government. if that tent had been left intact they would have found something else to provoke the crowd with.

re: #172 palomino

Your concern for him is so touching. I'm sure you'd be posting the same thing if a "right wing thug" had knocked over his hot dog stand.

I certainly would. I bet you would too. Protesting is one thing. Destroying property is another.

Somehow I knew this would be the topic for the morning wingnut wave. I must be psychic.

re: #172 palomino

Your concern for him is so touching. I'm sure you'd be posting the same thing if a "right wing thug" had knocked over his hot dog stand.

There is no knocked over hot dog stand. Or destroyed business.

It's a picture of a guy (probably the hot dog guy) doing something with a folding table. No pictures of any hot dog stand.

Shame shame shame on LGF's own Breitbart Brigade.

re: #176 Charles Johnson

Somehow I knew this would be the topic for the morning wingnut wave. I must be psychic.

The sun rose in the east this morning, too. Who knew?

//

re: #173 Kronocide

You are a fucking Breitbart hack.

There's no evidence that his business was destroyed therefore your noted lack of displeasure from lefties is about as false as your objectivity.

You have accepted a specious narrative founded upon a narrow thread of a factiod and are further expounding on what happened. The only difference between what is happening here on this thread and Breitbart is they are better at it and make $ on it.

Fucking disgusting.

No mention or concern at all about the livelihood of the union workers.
Yes, maybe a few of the protestors got slightly of hand when provoked. But the police reports indicate that most people are well behaved and there have been no serious injuries to anyone.

We have a sneak attack on Labor by Koch funded groups, rushed through a lame duck session...but all eyes are on a fallen down tent and a big mouth RW dickhead flunky.

re: #153 makeitstop

Imagine the songs to be played by that combo:

Lithium in the Sky With Diamonds
Smells like Abbey Road
Come Together As You Are
Eleanor Rigby In Bloom
Please Polly Please Me

And I Hate Myself, I want to live and let die

re: #176 Charles Johnson

Somehow I knew this would be the topic for the morning wingnut wave. I must be psychic.

In my search for evidence I noted that hits for the search keep increasing. Real time echo chambering.

No new evidence is coming out. Only the duplication and amplification of the specious evidence and motivated assumptions.

And here at LGF, much Balance Fairying and mini-Breitbart hackery.

I think using flamethrowers on the tent full of widows and orphans was a perfectly legitimate response to the baiting by the AFP. But employing white phosphorus grenades against the hot dog vendor was just too much. Think of the defenseless hot dogs and what their last moments must have been like. :(

///

Just as a rehash: this is all from a tipster on twitter with a photograph of a dude and a folding table.

The Twitchy-facation of faux-journalism.

re: #182 watching you tiny alien kittens are

They're dirty water dogs. It goes without saying that they deserved it. ///

re: #183 Kronocide

Just as a rehash: this is all from a tipster on twitter with a photograph of a dude and a folding table.

The Twitchy-facation of faux-journalism.

Notice in the picture: dude does not appear to be in or under a tent. The destroyed tent. It seems he may be outside in the overcast sunlight.

Something stinks here. Really bad.

re: #183 Kronocide

Just as a rehash: this is all from a tipster on twitter with a photograph of a dude and a folding table.

The Twitchy-facation of faux-journalism.

It's also from a website raising money for him.

*UPDATE* 11:40am - I have spoken with Linda Lee, Clint's wife. She says he is absolutely overwhelmed with our support, even more so than by the events of yesterday. I would like to clarify the events, however. Clint hired as a caterer for the AFP tent which was torn down. He was much more concerned about the others, and particularly helped to get the women out of the tent. It was when he returned to gather his equipment that the taunts and racial slurs began. He says the working people did not respect the working man. He was not there to be political; he was just there to serve. This is the Clint we know and love. Please, let's respect him and leave our political opinions out of this. This is about our support for Clint.

I think that's fantastic. If this is a fraud to take money from people then I hope they get caught but it looks authentic so far.

re: #185 Kronocide

Notice in the picture: dude does not appear to be in or under a tent. The destroyed tent. It seems he may be outside in the overcast sunlight.

Something stinks here. Really bad.

Did you see what else he tweeted?

@michellemalkin while in the @afpmichigan tent, the union thugs were attempting to light the propane tank used for heat on fire. Peaceful eh

— Nick Hawatmeh (@NicolaHawatmeh) December 12, 2012

Yeah, this dude is totally full of shit.

The Breitbart goons are in full-out hysterical freak-out mode over this, of course. There must be hundreds of tweets already from Dana Loesch and the other shills. So naturally it's going to be brought to LGF too.

re: #180 lawhawk

Imagine the songs to be played by that combo:

Lithium in the Sky With Diamonds
Smells like Abbey Road
Come Together As You Are
Eleanor Rigby In Bloom
Please Polly Please Me

And I Hate Myself, I want to live and let die

Brilliant!

TBH, I'd love to hear that lineup bang out a few of the covers that The Beatles did on the first couple of albums. There is a connection there - Grohl played drums in the band that played the soundtrack to the movie 'Backbeat.'

Hearing Nirvana with Macca doing 'Long Tall Sally' or 'Twist And Shout' would be well worth it.

Please, let's respect him and leave our political opinions out of this. This is about our support for Clint.

Riiight. Let's give the guy $8500 for his destroyed business.

I hope he takes the wingnut $ and buys a second cart to go along with his first one that didn't appear to even be at the rally in the first place.

re: #188 Charles Johnson

The Breitbart goons are in full-out hysterical freak-out mode over this, of course. There must be hundreds of tweets already from Dana Loesch and the other shills. So naturally it's going to be brought to LGF too.

Not by me. I ain't fallin' for that shit.

re: #187 watching you tiny alien kittens are

[Link: www.wavsource.com...]

You cowardly rat bastard media types.

— Dana Loesch (@DLoesch) December 12, 2012

re: #193 Charles Johnson

Queen of DARVO sez whut?

re: #190 Kronocide

Riiight. Let's give the guy $8500 for his destroyed business.

I hope he takes the wingnut $ and buys a second cart to go along with his first one that didn't appear to even be at the rally in the first place.

Why so much hate for a hot dog vendor? Seems pretty petty.

re: #190 Kronocide

Riiight. Let's give the guy $8500 for his destroyed business.

I hope he takes the wingnut $ and buys a second cart to go along with his first one that didn't appear to even be at the rally in the first place.

Yeah, what cart? I see no cart at all I see he had a table set up next to the tent and now he is gathering his stuff. You will notice that his stuff isn't stomped or scattered either. Funny that he mentions protesters assaulting "people," yelling racial slurs, trying to blow themselves up by igniting a propane tank, but never mentions anything about any damage to a cart?

@michellemalkin Min after union thugs tore down tent, assaulted several ppl. & yelling N*gger & Uncle Tom at man below twitter.com/NicolaHawatmeh...

— Nick Hawatmeh (@NicolaHawatmeh) December 12, 2012

All the violence is on video yet thug-loving leftists say it didn't happen. The same people who claimed tea party N word with ZERO evidence.

— Dana Loesch (@DLoesch) December 12, 2012

She's spewing this stuff like a firehose, every few seconds another tweet about "union thugs."

re: #195 NJDhockeyfan

Why so much hate for a hot dog vendor? Seems pretty petty.

Who hates the hot dog vendor?

re: #145 sattv4u2

Errand time
Then brunch with the fetching Mrs Satty
Then son satty MAY grace us with 5 minutes of his time filling us in how how his 1st semester of college went!!

Brunch is on hold
Wifey is still in her favorite store!!

Well, this morning's wingnut brigade is doing exactly as I expected yesterday - reporting the lack of media coverage about the Crowder incident as proof of conspiracy or something.

re: #147 b_sharp

Image: 2515262428_ae90bed9ae.jpg

I remember the Sanford and Son episode

Fred mixing Champagne with Ripple

Called it ChampIpple!!

Syria Fires Scud Missiles at Insurgents, U.S. Says

WASHINGTON — Syrian forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad have fired Scud missiles at rebel fighters in recent days, Obama administration officials said on Wednesday.

The move represents a significant escalation in the fighting, which has already killed more than 40,000 civilians in a nearly two-year-old conflict that has threatened to destabilize the Middle East.

One American official, who asked not to be identified because he was discussing classified information, said that missiles had been fired from the Damascus area at targets in northern Syria.

“The total is number is probably north of six now,” said another American official, and that the targets were in areas controlled by the Free Syrian Army, the main armed insurgent group.

Can these SCUDs hold chemical weapons?

re: #195 NJDhockeyfan

Why so much hate for a hot dog vendor? Seems pretty petty.

Are you accusing me of hating the hot dog vendor?

I don't know how else to interpret what you said. Or I guess it could be the union thu.... er, protesters.

re: #202 NJDhockeyfan

Syria Fires Scud Missiles at Insurgents, U.S. Says

Can these SCUDs hold chemical weapons?

Yes, they can.

Weird Dana Loesch says nothing about a cart on her website, neither does Michelle Malkin, neither does the guy who tweeted this originally. Some fucktard started embellishing somewhere online and now we have this story about the fictitious cart being destroyed. It is probably because they did post an old picture of him with his cart at his normal day job location.

So they guy maybe gets his table knocked over during the tent incident and now the wingnuts are donating money to him to pay for his damages? SUCKERS!

re: #197 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

She's spewing this stuff like a firehose, every few seconds another tweet about "union thugs."

When John Lewis says somebody yelled the n word at him, that's evidence of truth. When any Breitbart thug says he's lying, that's evidence of their own mendacity. People earn their reputations, good and bad.

re: #204 Dark_Falcon

Yes, they can.

I hope they don't turn these toward Israel.

re: #207 NJDhockeyfan

I hope they don't turn these toward Israel.

Assad's not that stupid.

re: #202 NJDhockeyfan

The SCUD missile is capable of carrying a warhead that could contain chemical weapons; they were originally designed by the Soviets to carry low-yield nuclear weapons. It's possible the Syrians possess the means/capabilities to field chemical weapon-tipped warheads on the Scuds and this could be among the reasons that talk about chemical weapons in Syria has picked up in the past two weeks or so - watching movement of the longer range/higher payload missiles in conjunction with action around known/suspected chemical weapons locations.

re: #207 NJDhockeyfan

I hope they don't turn these toward Israel.

No "I hope they weren't loaded with chemical warheads when they were fired at the non-Isreali people"?

re: #208 Dark_Falcon

Assad's not that stupid.

Not a question of being stupid
Shift the focus to a "common enemy"

re: #208 Dark_Falcon

Assad's not that stupid.

One of his generals said he will use chemical weapons if his back is against the wall. I don't underestimate how far this monster will go to kill anyone anymore.

re: #210 GunstarGreen

No "I hope they weren't loaded with chemical warheads when they were fired at the non-Isreali people"?

That too. He doesn't seem to care who he kills.

Non answer noted.

Off to commit capitalism.

Eagle Forum: 'Non-Whites, Non-Christians and Non-Marrieds' will 'Tear Down Traditional American Culture'

After warning that a decline in the white birth rate will lead to the demise of American culture, Eagle Forum is now attacking racial and religious minorities for supposedly trying to “tear down traditional American culture” and “undermine Americanism.” As Kyle noted yesterday, Roger Schlafly (son of Eagle Forum founder Phyllis Schlafly) is taking a page from Bill O’Reilly in blaming President Obama’s re-election on Democrats who have been “badmouthing traditional American values” and “increasing government dependence.” Schlafly, who earlier claimed that people should fear that “immigrants do not share American values” and “will not be voting Republican,” writes that Republicans and WASP culture are the last bastions of “traditional American values” against “non-whites, non-Christians, and non-marrieds.”

re: #215 Kragar

Eagle Forum: 'Non-Whites, Non-Christians and Non-Marrieds' will 'Tear Down Traditional American Culture'

Eagle Forum: Bigoted fascists stuck in the past who want the rest of us stuck in the past with them.

Gaza Shops names perfume after Hamas missile

“Stay Stylish,” a shop in Gaza’s upscale Rimal neighborhood, has come out with a new perfume. Called, M75, the perfume is named after the Hamas M75 missile that was able to hit Jerusalem and Tel Aviv during Operation Pillar of Defense.

"We came up with the name M75 for a new perfume in the shop as a symbol of the rocket of the resistance, and the victory of Gaza," Abu Ahmed, owner of the "Stay Stylish" shop in Gaza City.

"People are proud that we were able to hit Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with this M75 rocket and this name is much talked about and liked by people here," he added, in reference to the cries of celebration that emanated throughout the Arab world as rockets reigned down on Israel.

The perfume is expensive and has several luxurious components that are, according to the store owner, “worthy of the terrorists on the battlefield.”

re: #211 sattv4u2

Not a question of being stupid
Shift the focus to a "common enemy"

That wouldn't be the result. If he fired chemical weapons at Israel and even one got through, Israel would reply by nuking Damascus. That would cut the heart out of the Assad regime, making its fall inevitable.

re: #179 blueraven

We have a sneak attack on Labor by Koch funded groups, rushed through a lame duck session...but all eyes are on a fallen down tent and a big mouth RW dickhead flunky.

And that is just the way they want it.

re: #217 NJDhockeyfan

Gaza Shops names perfume after Hamas missile

The perfume is expensive and has several luxurious components that are, according to the store owner, “worthy of the terrorists on the battlefield.”

Old news.

re: #215 Roger Schlafly

Democrats never persuade voters based on reason or logic. They gain voters by increasing government dependence and by promoting changes to immigration policy, family law, and schools that increase the population wanting to undermine Americanism.

That's right, boys and girls. The best way to fix your issue of having more people voting against you than for you, immediately after an election where you got your asses handed to you by people voting Democrat instead of Republican, is to tell those of us that went left (you know, the people you need to convince that your side of the argument is better) that we do not vote based on reason or logic.

Even if my political views had nothing to do with my voting decisions, I would still not vote for the Party of Enormous Fucking Assholes.

Israel's probably in a better position to deal with a Scud launch than the Syrian rebels (or Turks or Lebanese who might be targeted by an errant launch). Israel has at least two, if not three layers of missile defense, including Iron Dome and Patriot systems.

The same can't be said of the Syrian rebels who are on the receiving end of these suspected Scud attacks. They'd likely suffer grievous losses in any kind of attack using chemical weapons. Assad may think that these attacks will gain him a tactical advantage since he's lost the advantage on the ground and air assaults have exposed his air forces to losses from SAMs. It's much harder to defend against ballistic missiles.

Syria is known to have significant missile stockpiles, including updated versions of Scuds and all such missiles are chemical weapons capable.

If Assad feels that he's been backed into a corner, he might use those chemical weapons, even against third parties like Israel as a means to divert/widen the conflict but the fact that Israel might use its own nuclear arsenal against Assad in retaliation might temper that possibility - avoiding firing even in the general direction of Israel with Scud type weapons.

Assad's willing to use pretty much anything at his disposal to remain in power, but he's not insane enough to attack Israel with weapons that would surely result in attacks ending his regime. The same can nearly be said of any such attack on Turkey (which would also bring NATO into the fight).

For now, he's going to see whether the conventionally armed scuds can turn the tide in his favor.

re: #221 GunstarGreen

That's right, boys and girls. The best way to fix your issue of having more people voting against you than for you, immediately after an election where you got your asses handed to you by people voting Democrat instead of Republican, is to tell those of us that went left (you know, the people you need to convince that your side of the argument is better) that we do not vote based on reason or logic.

Even if my political views had nothing to do with my voting decisions, I would still not vote for the Party of Enormous Fucking Assholes.

What the hell is Shlafly doing talking about reason and logic as if he has an idea?

re: #218 Dark_Falcon

That wouldn't be the result. If he fired chemical weapons at Israel and even one got through, Israel would reply by nuking Damascus. That would cut the heart out of the Assad regime, making its fall inevitable.

No they wouldn't

AND ,, even if they did it would galvanize the region (and most of the world) against Israel even more so

re: #211 sattv4u2

Israel likely has the same kind of policy re: WMD as the US does - namely that an attack against it with WMD will be treated as a nuclear attack, and the response will be a nuclear retaliation.

Widening the conflict to bring Israel in to the fight makes sense at a certain level, but it wouldn't include chemical weapons attacks against Israel. Assad could try to get Israel involved through subterfuge, claiming that the attacks were carried out by the rebels, bringing the IDF to bear against Assad's rivals (or the rivals would try to get Israel to engage against Assad's loyalists by similar means). It's all the more reason for Israel to stand by and be prepared for either situation and remain vigilant.

But nukes/WMD/chemical weapons aren't going to extend Assad's power if he fires them, especially against Israel or Turkey.

re: #224 sattv4u2

No they wouldn't

AND ,, even if they did it would galvanize the region (and most of the world) against Israel even more so

Hopefully will not be a decision that has to be made. And since all Israeli politics is internal politics I actually believe that a nuclear retaliation for a chemical warhead missile attack on Israel would not be that far out of bounds. "You hit us, we hit you back harder" would be immediately demanded, and consideration of Israel's international standing would be of lesser consideration.

re: #224 sattv4u2

No they wouldn't

AND ,, even if they did it would galvanize the region (and most of the world) against Israel even more so

Honestly, yes they would. That's the Israeli policy, to respond to large-scale WMD attacks with nuclear weapons. It's our policy too, for such cases. Only way to proceed, I'm afraid.

Later, have a great day. Off to work.

re: #217 NJDhockeyfan

Downdings for linking to a wingnut site just before leaving.

re: #226 Feline Fearless Leader

Hopefully will not be a decision that has to be made

From your keyboard to "His" ears

re: #229 wrenchwench

Downdings for linking to a wingnut site just before leaving.

Hit him with a 19mm.

re: #218 Dark_Falcon

That wouldn't be the result. If he fired chemical weapons at Israel and even one got through, Israel would reply by nuking Damascus. That would cut the heart out of the Assad regime, making its fall inevitable.

WTF.
Responding to a warcrime by committing a warcrime.
Brilliant!

re: #232 Varek Raith

WTF.
Responding to a warcrime by committing a warcrime.
Brilliant!

Once WMDs have been deployed via missile, all international law goes out the door.

re: #231 b_sharp

Hit him with a 19mm.

My tools are not for violence. Downdings will have to do.

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

Once WMDs have been deployed via missile, all international law goes out the door.

So do morals it seems.

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

Once WMDs have been deployed via missile, all international law goes out the door.

This is a tricky distinction between national and international law: in national law, there is supposed to be a supreme authority with a monopoly on the use of military force or any sort of violence beyond self-defence. This is not the case in international dealings.

re: #235 Varek Raith

So do morals it seems.

Yes, they do. With WMDs having used, the only law is the Law of the Jungle.