Roeder: Poster Boy for DHS ‘Right Wing Extremist’ Report

US News • Views: 5,092

Scott Roeder, under arrest for the murder of Dr. George Tiller, is a poster boy for that DHS report on “right wing extremism” that was so vilified and distorted.

He was involved in the “Freemen” movement, and arrested in 1996 with a load of bomb-making equipment in his car: Suspect in George Tiller shooting is linked to anti-government group.

“Freemen” was a term adopted by those who claimed sovereignty from government jurisdiction and operated under their own legal system, which they called common-law courts. Adherents declared themselves exempt from laws, regulations and taxes and often filed liens against judges, prosecutors and others, claiming that money was owed to them as compensation.

In April 1996, Roeder was arrested in Topeka after Shawnee County sheriff’s deputies stopped him for not having a proper license plate. In his car, officers said they found ammunition, a blasting cap, a fuse cord, a one-pound can of gunpowder and two 9-volt batteries, with one connected to a switch that could have been used to trigger a bomb.

Jim Jimerson, supervisor of the Kansas City ATF’s bomb and arson unit, worked on the case.

“There wasn’t enough there to blow up a building,” Jimerson said at the time, but he said it could make several powerful pipe bombs.

Roeder was also connected to groups promoting the idea that killing doctors who perform abortions is “justifiable homicide.”

Those who know Roeder said he believed that killing abortion doctors was an act of justifiable homicide.

“I know that he believed in justifiable homicide,” said Regina Dinwiddie, a Kansas City abortion opponent who made headlines in 1995 when she was ordered by a federal judge to stop using a bullhorn within 500 feet of any abortion clinic. “I know he very strongly believed that abortion was murder and that you ought to defend the little ones, both born and unborn.”

Dinwiddie said she met Roeder while picketing outside the Kansas City Planned Parenthood clinic in 1996. Roeder walked into the clinic and asked to see the doctor, Robert Crist, she said.

“Robert Crist came out and he stared at him for approximately 45 seconds,” she said. “Then he (Roeder) said, ‘I’ve seen you now.’ Then he turned his back and walked away, and they were scared to death. On the way out, he gave me a great big hug and he said, ‘I’ve seen you in the newspaper. I just love what you’re doing.’ ”

Roeder also was a subscriber to Prayer and Action News, a magazine that advocated the justifiable homicide position, said publisher Dave Leach, an anti-abortion activist from Des Moines. “I met him once, and he wrote to me a few times,” Leach said. “I remember that he was sympathetic to our cause, but I don’t remember any details.”

Leach said he met Roeder in Topeka when he went there to visit Shelley Shannon, who was in prison for the 1993 shooting of Tiller.

Read the whole article. The Roeder case should prompt another, more sober look at that DHS report, because it’s very clear that there are dangerous right wing extremists, capable of doing violence, who fit the DHS profiles to a T.

UPDATE at 6/1/09 2:24:18 pm:

Scott Roeder wasn’t just a subscriber to pro-murder magazine “Prayer and Action News” — he was a contributor. And now they’re calling him a “hero.”

Scott Roeder had written several opinion pieces about Dr. Tiller for Prayer and Action News. In fact, many in the anti-abortion movement already consider Roeder a martyr and a hero.

UPDATE at 6/1/09 2:27:39 pm:

The owner of “Prayer and Action News” says that Roeder didn’t commit a crime, and that his actions were supported by Christian scripture.

Scott Roeder, 51, of Merriam, Kan., whom authorities have described as a suspect in Sunday’s fatal shooting here of George Tiller, was once a subscriber and occasional contributor to a newsletter, Prayer and Action News, said Dave Leach, an anti-abortion activist from Des Moines who runs the newsletter. Mr. Leach said that he had met Mr. Roeder once, and that Mr. Roeder had described similar views to his own on abortion.

Commenting on Dr. Tiller’s death, Mr. Leach said, “To call this a crime is too simplistic.” He added, “There is Christian scripture that would support this.”

Jump to bottom

615 comments
1 Million Dollar Man  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:21:17pm

Interesting how these people have the same traits. Cracking down on one form of extremism can thus have an impact on another.

2 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:22:17pm

Outburst warning:

Why the #$%# was a man with bomb making equipment in his car not incarcerated in the nearest federal penitentiary?!

sigh

3 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:22:48pm

False flag! Media lies! He was planted by the Obama administration!

/I don't think it's been said yet, but I bet cash money it will be

4 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:23:29pm

re: #2 DaddyG

Outburst warning:

Why the #$%# was a man with bomb making equipment in his car not incarcerated in the nearest federal penitentiary?!

sigh

I think he got 18 months...just enough to really piss him off and refine his attitude

5 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:24:29pm

Excuse me, but what profile?

The DHS memo was beyond vague and entering on the realm of well, maybe, perhaps, conceivably.

The things Roeder is noted as being a member of have been known to be serious, dangerous trouble since the mid-80's.

Granted, most "profiles" are vague, too. It seems to only be in fiction that a "profile" will point at one person only.

6 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:24:59pm

Murder is murder. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where God handed over the delivery of justice to unhinged radical vigilantes. The saddest part of all of this is the disservice this does to those who really care about the sanctity of life born and unborn.

7 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:26:13pm

Rationality has no relevance to the insane, and there are enough extremists on both fringes that will see a crackdown as justification for their hatred of government.

8 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:26:23pm

And with that venting of irritation, I dive back into databases and signing stupid letters, and reading even stupider proposals.

Grrrr.

9 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:26:30pm

Speaking of right wing extremism...

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]


oh boy.

10 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:26:57pm

re: #6 DaddyG

I read earlier about their religious justifications for killing abortion doctors. I can't quote chapter and verse but they found a scriptural basis for it.

11 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:27:59pm

McVeigh proved your point in spades, Charles. After the Oklahoma City bombing, a friend of mine said, "I hope the guys who did this were foreign terrorists, because if they were Americans, we're in real trouble." He had no idea.

12 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:28:04pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

I read earlier about their religious justifications for killing abortion doctors. I can't quote chapter and verse but they found a scriptural basis for it.


CAN I GET A FALSE WITNESS!

13 vxbush  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:28:14pm
Scott Roeder had written several opinion pieces about Dr. Tiller for Prayer and Action News. In fact, many in the anti-abortion movement already consider Roeder a martyr and a hero.

They are the only ones that are considering him a hero. I've heard of no other group saying so. The following have denounced Tiller's murder:

National Clergy Council
Christian Defense Coalitions
Focus on the Family

14 Million Dollar Man  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:28:23pm

re: #6 DaddyG

Murder is murder. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where God handed over the delivery of justice to unhinged radical vigilantes. The saddest part of all of this is the disservice this does to those who really care about the sanctity of life born and unborn.

I'd like to hear a pro-life view on what legal punishment should be meted out for performing abortions, then. People condemn "vigilante" action as though they'd be fine if the doctor had been executed legally.

15 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:28:33pm

there have always been loons on both sides. right, left. what does it matter. what matters is that they are nutters and dangerous

16 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:28:46pm

time to dust off the old internal wiretapping schemes and RICCO laws

17 Million Dollar Man  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:29:54pm

re: #16 albusteve

time to dust off the old internal wiretapping schemes and RICCO laws

No.

18 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:30:29pm

there is a word for scumbags like roeder: "TERRORIST."

I'm sure he was a huge fan of timothy mcveigh ...

19 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:30:47pm

re: #17 Million Dollar Man

No.

yes

20 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:30:58pm

re: #14 Million Dollar Man

I'm pro-life, but not Catholic. As I said on the earlier thread, abortion likely was a misdemeanor offense at common law if performed after the fetus had quickened (was viable). That's sufficient punishment in my view.

21 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:31:02pm

re: #12 DaddyG

CAN I GET A FALSE WITNESS!

The owner of “Prayer and Action News” says that Roeder didn’t commit a crime, and that his actions were supported by Christian scripture.

Scott Roeder, 51, of Merriam, Kan., whom authorities have described as a suspect in Sunday’s fatal shooting here of George Tiller, was once a subscriber and occasional contributor to a newsletter, Prayer and Action News, said Dave Leach, an anti-abortion activist from Des Moines who runs the newsletter. Mr. Leach said that he had met Mr. Roeder once, and that Mr. Roeder had described similar views to his own on abortion.

Commenting on Dr. Tiller’s death, Mr. Leach said, “To call this a crime is too simplistic.” He added, “There is Christian scripture that would support this."

22 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:31:09pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

I read earlier about their religious justifications for killing abortion doctors. I can't quote chapter and verse but they found a scriptural basis for it.


Religious justifications for unrighteous behavior are covered by the
"sow and reap" clause...

23 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:31:44pm

re: #8 Dianna

And with that venting of irritation, I dive back into databases and signing stupid letters, and reading even stupider proposals.

Grrrr.

Stupid proposals:
[Link: finance.yahoo.com...]

24 cgn38navy  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:31:45pm

re: #14 Million Dollar Man

Losing their license, fines, jail time, community service (preferably working with orphans). I'm pro-life(with reservations) and I oppose the death penalty.

25 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:31:53pm

re: #14 Million Dollar Man

When abortions become illegal then you MIGHT have a point. Until then the Rule of Law says otherwise.

26 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:31:55pm

re: #13 vxbush

They are the only ones that are considering him a hero. I've heard of no other group saying so. The following have denounced Tiller's murder:

National Clergy Council
Christian Defense Coalitions
Focus on the Family

There are thousands and thousands of comments on websites all over the world calling Roeder a hero. I posted a tiny sample of them yesterday.

27 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:32:07pm

re: #15 Jewels (AKA Julian)

there have always been loons on both sides. right, left. what does it matter. what matters is that they are nutters and dangerous

Hmmmm it sure seemed like it did when that DHS report came out. Cries of "nazi's are socialists that love communism" were deafening from the freepers of the world.

28 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:32:40pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

I read earlier about their religious justifications for killing abortion doctors. I can't quote chapter and verse but they found a scriptural basis for it.

Old Testament Eye for an Eye?

29 Million Dollar Man  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:32:50pm

re: #20 quickjustice

I'm pro-life, but not Catholic. As I said on the earlier thread, abortion likely was a misdemeanor offense at common law if performed after the fetus had quickened (was viable). That's sufficient punishment in my view.

That's a reasonable position. But the vast majority of comments I'm seeing express sorrow that someone "took the law into his own hands," etc. As if the law should have seen him executed or imprisoned.

30 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:33:00pm

re: #14 Million Dollar Man

I hope I never sounded that way. You can justify an eye for an eye using Pat the Bunny if you are hellbent on murder and revenge.

If Christians actually bother to read the Bible they would find that God is pretty conservative about vengance and He tends to reserve any final judgements to Himself.

31 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:33:05pm

re: #21 Charles

"The Devil may cite scripture to his own purpose."

-Jesus of Nazareth

32 vxbush  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:33:07pm

re: #21 Charles

[slaps forehead]

Oy. I complete denounce these people's positions and actions. I cannot see how they can construe scripture to support such a position.

Gotta go...

33 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:33:13pm

I've been listening to a call in show in Kansas for the past hour, caller after caller has been justifying this, apologizing for shroeder, and basically talking like the neo Taliban, it was stomach turning. Is my home state morphing into Waziristan on the plains?

34 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:33:18pm

re: #5 Dianna

Excuse me, but what profile?

He belonged to a "violent anti-government group," and the report notes extremists' "longstanding exploitation of social issues such as abortion."

That profile.

35 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:33:36pm

re: #14 Million Dollar Man

I'd like to hear a pro-life view on what legal punishment should be meted out for performing abortions, then. People condemn "vigilante" action as though they'd be fine if the doctor had been executed legally.

None, as long as it's legal. If it were to become illegal (very doubtful), I'd expect something more along the lines of a license suspension, fine, and maybe a year in jail for repeat offenders.

36 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:33:42pm

OT: Islamists Lose Ground in the Middle East

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

as a thought, there are several reasons for this:

1) The authorities in The ME have figured out just what a monster they've created and the whole using them to play off against the Zionists bit isn't working as well as they would like.

2) the Islamists have been become more vocal in calling for those who work with infidels (the rulers)

3) Lotsa Dead Jihadi with little to show for it tends to kill the attractiveness of being Jihadi.

4) people have seen what corrupt creeps the Jihadi are and have gotten tired of it.

37 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:34:05pm

re: #15 Jewels (AKA Julian)

there have always been loons on both sides. right, left. what does it matter. what matters is that they are nutters and dangerous

Ihateronpaul just downdinged that one. Does that mean he identifies with the loons on one side or supports their right to lunacy?

Inquiring minds want to know...

/Karma -1 in 3... 2... 1...

38 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:34:13pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

I read earlier about their religious justifications for killing abortion doctors. I can't quote chapter and verse but they found a scriptural basis for it.

My answer to such argument is simple: stuff it. If you and your religion can't operate within the broad constraints of the most tolerant nation on the planet, you belong somewhere else. Religion does not trump law. And in America, anyway, the state is forbidden to deploy it's powers in the name of religion. If you don't like the law, you are free to work within the law to change it. If you're intent on ramming your religion down everyone else's throats, however, by employing the power of the state to do so, you need to go elsewhere. And good riddance to you.

39 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:34:25pm

re: #28 Eowyn2

Old Testament Eye for an Eye?

The Old Testament would be a bad choice; actually some very clear punishments for harming a child in the womb, although probably not aimed at purposeful abortions.

None were death, IIRC.

40 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:34:37pm

re: #29 Million Dollar Man

That's reasoning from a false premise. As I said on the earlier thread, abortion NEVER has been treated the same as murder in the U.S.

41 midwestgak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:34:50pm

re: #22 Capitalist Tool

Religious justifications for unrighteous behavior are covered by the
"sow and reap" clause...

That is . . . so true. Sometimes takes a while though.

42 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:35:00pm

re: #37 DaddyG

See my reply to that post for my opinion on her post.

43 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:35:17pm

re: #33 Thanos

I've been listening to a call in show in Kansas for the past hour, caller after caller has been justifying this, apologizing for shroeder, and basically talking like the neo Taliban, it was stomach turning. Is my home state morphing into Waziristan on the plains?

It's absolutely everywhere. This murder has opened the floodgates. We have people here at LGF who are denying there's a problem, but there is -- and it's a HUGE problem.

44 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:35:34pm

re: #14 Million Dollar Man

I'd like to hear a pro-life view on what legal punishment should be meted out for performing abortions, then. People condemn "vigilante" action as though they'd be fine if the doctor had been executed legally.

I'm very troubled by your comment.

Of course, there can be no legal punishment meted out for doing something that isn't illegal. People don't get executed for doing things that aren't illegal. If you don't recognize the legal authority of my country's government, then you are not welcome in my country.

45 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:36:31pm

re: #16 albusteve

time to dust off the old internal wiretapping schemes and RICCO laws

No dusting required. RICO and court-supervised wiretaps are readily available tools that can easily be deployed immediately.

46 KingKenrod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:36:31pm

"Poster Boy" is a little strong. The DHS memo's focus was about a surge in this kind of violence due to the changing political and economic landscape. This guy has a long history of being a radical.

As far as we know now, this guy isn't disgruntled ex-military, angry about being out or work, or a racist driven over the edge by the election of a black president.

He definitely could have been motivated to act by the election of a pro-abortion president, though. Definitely a possibility.

47 Racer X  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:37:08pm

re: #14 Million Dollar Man

I'd like to hear a pro-life view on what legal punishment should be meted out for performing abortions, then.

None.

Abortion is legal.

48 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:37:09pm

re: #37 DaddyG

Ihateronpaul just downdinged that one. Does that mean he identifies with the loons on one side or supports their right to lunacy?

Inquiring minds want to know...

/Karma -1 in 3... 2... 1...

That's puzzling. With a nic like Ihateronpaul, he must acknowledge that there are right-wing loons.

49 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:37:13pm

re: #33 Thanos

I've been listening to a call in show in Kansas for the past hour, caller after caller has been justifying this, apologizing for shroeder, and basically talking like the neo Taliban, it was stomach turning. Is my home state morphing into Waziristan on the plains?


Hypocrisy is never attractive

50 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:37:17pm

re: #2 DaddyG

Outburst warning:

Why the #$%# was a man with bomb making equipment in his car not incarcerated in the nearest federal penitentiary?!

sigh

He used it to blow up 0bama's nirth certifikit.

51 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:37:50pm

re: #50 Ward Cleaver

He used it to blow up 0bama's nirth certifikit.

That, sir, is comedy gold.

52 cgn38navy  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:37:50pm

re: #44 Last Mohican
What happened to dissent is patriotic? heh heh.

53 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:38:01pm

re: #48 doppelganglander

That's puzzling. With a nic like Ihateronpaul, he must acknowledge that there are right-wing loons.

look at his avatar .... he looks kind of young

54 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:38:06pm

re: #48 doppelganglander

That's puzzling. With a nic like Ihateronpaul, he must acknowledge that there are right-wing loons.

Maybe Ron Paul kicked his dog once, or something.

/

55 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:38:12pm

They had a guest on at the top of the show from "Kansans for Life" who very clearly called it evil and denounced Roeder. The leader, Kathy was extremely worried about the set back the pro life movement was going to take due to this. If you you truly care about pro life you need to stop letting Randall Terry and like groups be the standard bearer and step up instead.
True pro lifers need to shut down the rabid groups or your cause will be doomed.

56 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:38:15pm

re: #43 Charles

It's absolutely everywhere. This murder has opened the floodgates. We have people here at LGF who are denying there's a problem, but there is -- and it's a HUGE problem.


What we have here is man's inherent need to be right on full display.
Taliban, Baptist- WTH.

57 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:38:26pm

re: #45 SixDegrees

No dusting required. RICO and court-supervised wiretaps are readily available tools that can easily be deployed immediately.

just adding a little snap to it...Freeman should be immediately targeted

58 Mardukhai  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:38:48pm

During the 70s, the "Free Men" movement was an egalitarian anti-Feminist organization with chapters all over the country. Their message was, "If women want equality, they can pay for their own dates."

A little different.

59 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:38:49pm

re: #52 cgn38navy

What happened to dissent is patriotic? heh heh.

That was only during the last administration, now is all Hope and Change.

60 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:39:00pm

re: #27 ihateronpaul OK I see your response. If you recall the Lizards and the Chief Lizard in particular were pretty moderate about the report. Not sure she deserved a ding down for that comment...

61 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:39:12pm

re: #48 doppelganglander

What are you talking about? I did that because I believe the political affiliation of said loons is very important to the situation at hand. Sorry?

62 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:39:53pm

re: #56 Capitalist Tool

What we have here is man's inherent need to be right on full display.
Taliban, Baptist- WTH.

?

63 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:40:28pm
64 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:40:40pm

re: #34 Charles

He belonged to a "violent anti-government group," and the report notes extremists' "longstanding exploitation of social issues such as abortion."

That profile.

Sigh. Once more, with feeling: that report was beyond vague, entering on useless. I did indeed read it. The "longstanding" part was obvious, and the lack of specificity irritated me then, and (clearly) continues to irritate me now.

65 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:40:50pm

Anyone see this yet?

Family shares accused killer's history

BY JAMES CARLSON
Created June 1, 2009 at 6:38am
Updated June 1, 2009 at 12:27pm

The ex-wife of a man accused in the shooting death of abortionist George Tiller on Sunday said her ex-husband had undergone a mental evaluation in the mid-1990s and that although he never thought he was mentally unstable, “everyone else did.”

“He just felt these were his views,” she said. “His anti-abortion rhetoric was very strong. He followed the view of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.”

More at the link.

66 Million Dollar Man  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:41:12pm

re: #44 Last Mohican

I'm very troubled by your comment.

Of course, there can be no legal punishment meted out for doing something that isn't illegal. People don't get executed for doing things that aren't illegal. If you don't recognize the legal authority of my country's government, then you are not welcome in my country.

You're missing the point. People are lamenting the "vigilante" aspect of the killing, which implicitly condones the act if it was done with due process.

67 cgn38navy  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:41:30pm

re: #56 Capitalist Tool
Comparing Taliban to Baptist is a bad comparison. The major goal of taliban is ruling through oppression. The major goal of Babtists is the "ice tea social". This guy was a nut job, he used religion as his excuse.

68 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:41:43pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

I read earlier about their religious justifications for killing abortion doctors. I can't quote chapter and verse but they found a scriptural basis for it.

People can read scripture however they want, to justify anything they like. That doesn't make it scriptural, or moral. Tiller's murder was unjustified, no matter where you stand on abortion.

69 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:42:32pm

re: #51 doppelganglander

That, sir, is comedy gold.

I was hoping it wasn't too irreverent. I apologize if anyone took it that way.

70 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:42:35pm
“Freemen” was a term adopted by those who claimed sovereignty from government jurisdiction and operated under their own legal system, which they called common-law courts. Adherents declared themselves exempt from laws, regulations and taxes and often filed liens against judges, prosecutors and others, claiming that money was owed to them as compensation

When citizens decide for themselves they're not going to be beholden to the law of the society in which we all live, what we're left with is anarchy. This is a strong indicator that roeder felt he himself was above the law a decade ago, so it's no wonder he would again think himself above the law, and perpetrate murder in the name of his own warped vigilante righteousness. This is what makes todays separatists extremists with their ron paul villages very frightening.

71 rumcrook  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:42:43pm
Commenting on Dr. Tiller’s death, Mr. Leach said, “To call this a crime is too simplistic.” He added, “There is Christian scripture that would support this."

huh.... sounds a lot like the duewchbags from islam. everyone thinks they can do what ever they want if it says so in thier book.

its definitely make example time for this one.

72 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:42:50pm

re: #66 Million Dollar Man

You're missing the point. People are lamenting the "vigilante" aspect of the killing, which implicitly condones the act if it was done with due process.

I don't see that here on this blog...I think you are stretching a bit

73 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:43:40pm

Anyone bring popcorn?

74 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:43:43pm

re: #66 Million Dollar Man

If the doctor had been found guilty by the Rule of Law and duly sentenced by a jury of his peers according to the laws of the state of Kansas, then what's the problem? He wasn't.

You love to construct a lot of strawmen.

75 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:43:54pm

Methinks (Shakespearian for you are about to get a full steaming load of my opinion)...

Methinks the report would have been more effective and less political had it listed extremest groups on both sides of the political spectrum with violent tendencies. Not that the warning of "right wing" groups was incorrect, but with 20/20 hindsight (which I'm soooo good at providing) the politicization of the report may have done more harm than good when it comes to our citizens being diligent about these nuts. Nuts which seem to grow in the fertile crap spewed on both extremes of the political spectrum.

76 lobo91  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:43:54pm

re: #64 Dianna

Sigh. Once more, with feeling: that report was beyond vague, entering on useless. I did indeed read it. The "longstanding" part was obvious, and the lack of specificity irritated me then, and (clearly) continues to irritate me now.

Exactly. The gist of it was, "People who belong to violent anti-government groups may do more anti-governmenty-stuff in the future."

Not terribly useful to law enforcement agencies.

77 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:44:16pm

Well that ultra conservative, dangerous, religious right wing whacko of a former VP candidate puts it succinctly.

Palin's Statement..

78 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:44:24pm

re: #57 albusteve

just adding a little snap to it...Freeman should be immediately targeted

If law enforcement isn't keeping an eye on the "Freemen", they're not doing their job. Just what they advocate can slide over into violence too fast for comfort.

79 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:44:42pm

The two most common themes among the callers are John Brown, and "nobody would cry if it were Osama Bin Laden". They must all get the same talking points, or read the same websites. The John Brown argument has also been in several articles, with the "unjust law" argument. They are trying to turn Roeder into a hero.

80 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:44:51pm

re: #38 SixDegrees

That's my thought too. Some of the scriptural debates we've had here in the past have been interesting but people always see what they want in scripture. Religion is a Rorschach test. There are Muslims who've never been on a Jihad, Jews who eat cheeseburgers, etc. Everybody does their own thing anyways.

81 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:45:06pm

re: #77 Russkilitlover

Well that ultra conservative, dangerous, religious right wing whacko of a former VP candidate puts it succinctly.

Palin's Statement..

Remember, she's stupid.

/

82 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:45:29pm

re: #64 Dianna

Sigh. Once more, with feeling: that report was beyond vague, entering on useless. I did indeed read it. The "longstanding" part was obvious, and the lack of specificity irritated me then, and (clearly) continues to irritate me now.

Well, it didn't use the name "Scott Roeder" specifically, so maybe it was vague on that point.

83 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:45:31pm

re: #61 ihateronpaul

What are you talking about? I did that because I believe the political affiliation of said loons is very important to the situation at hand. Sorry?

It seemed to me that Jewels made a valid point. Daddy G noted that there seemed to be little reason to downding it and I agreed. This particular nut's political affiliation is relevant, but Jewels was just pointing out that nuts can be found on all branches of the tree. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your downding.

84 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:45:36pm

re: #79 Thanos

The two most common themes among the callers are John Brown, and "nobody would cry if it were Osama Bin Laden". They must all get the same talking points, or read the same websites. The John Brown argument has also been in several articles, with the "unjust law" argument. They are trying to turn Roeder into a hero.

Well, I ain't buying either arguments and still believe to the bottom of my soul the guy is a terrorist and creep.

85 avanti  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:45:47pm

re: #64 Dianna

Sigh. Once more, with feeling: that report was beyond vague, entering on useless. I did indeed read it. The "longstanding" part was obvious, and the lack of specificity irritated me then, and (clearly) continues to irritate me now.

I don't think the report was intended to be specific. As I recall it warned about pro life extremists among many others and many on the right went ballistic about that comment. Certainly most pro lifers are not a threat, but the reported just suggested that some might be and as it turned out, one was.

86 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:46:03pm

re: #68 Ward Cleaver

Agreed.

87 vxbush  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:46:15pm

re: #26 Charles

There are thousands and thousands of comments on websites all over the world calling Roeder a hero. I posted a tiny sample of them yesterday.

Individual comments, yes. Organizations, not so much. You had written:

many in the anti-abortion movement

Now such individual comments are also disgusting. But you specifically said "movement", and I want to make it clear that organizations that can be classified as part of the anti-abortion movement are not supporting this.

Individuals on a website have not generally posted whether they are part of the specific anti-abortion movement (and I would generally not assume someone is part of an organized movement just because they hold such views).

Just trying to be clear here.

88 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:46:17pm

re: #62 OldLineTexan
The comment deals with an apparent flaw in thehuman psyche which each individual must overcome- the need to be right. People have so little understanding of the deeper meaning of their particular gospels that they try to make God fit into their limited understanding and assume the role of God for themselves.
Doesn't matter what they call themselves, they are so "right' that they think can do any damned thing in the name of God.

89 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:46:26pm

re: #79 Thanos

The two most common themes among the callers are John Brown, and "nobody would cry if it were Osama Bin Laden". They must all get the same talking points, or read the same websites. The John Brown argument has also been in several articles, with the "unjust law" argument. They are trying to turn Roeder into a hero.

bin laden is a terrorist. And the other terrorist in this analogy is roeder, not Tiller.

90 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:46:45pm

re: #65 Gus 802

Anyone see this yet?

Family shares accused killer's history

BY JAMES CARLSON
Created June 1, 2009 at 6:38am
Updated June 1, 2009 at 12:27pm

More at the link.

He let it get control of him, and he lost it.

91 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:46:47pm

re: #77 Russkilitlover

Well that ultra conservative, dangerous, religious right wing whacko of a former VP candidate puts it succinctly.

Palin's Statement..

Well to be fair her earlier statements weren't exactly encouraging on the topic

[Link: afp.google.com...]

92 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:47:13pm

re: #66 Million Dollar Man

You're missing the point. People are lamenting the "vigilante" aspect of the killing, which implicitly condones the act if it was done with due process.

I think you are assuming facts not in evidence.

93 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:47:14pm

re: #66 Million Dollar Man

You're missing the point. People are lamenting the "vigilante" aspect of the killing, which implicitly condones the act if it was done with due process.


Perhaps you can cite a post where this kind of thinking was forwarded. I don't see it either. In fact most posters here with a Christian or similar viewpoint would include the New Testament and its prohibition on murder and respect for the rule of law as a key component of their belief system.

94 ladycatnip  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:47:32pm
Commenting on Dr. Tiller’s death, Mr. Leach said, “To call this a crime is too simplistic.” He added, “There is Christian scripture that would support this."

Chapter and verse, please.

95 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:48:03pm

re: #77 Russkilitlover

Well that ultra conservative, dangerous, religious right wing whacko of a former VP candidate puts it succinctly.

Palin's Statement..

That's pretty much the position of Fr. Frank Pavone, head of Priests For Life. You pray for people; you don't murder them.

96 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:48:12pm

re: #93 DaddyG

Perhaps you can cite a post where this kind of thinking was forwarded. I don't see it either. In fact most posters here with a Christian or similar viewpoint would include the New Testament and its prohibition on murder and respect for the rule of law as a key component of their belief system.

Yes.

97 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:48:13pm

re: #88 Capitalist Tool

The comment deals with an apparent flaw in thehuman psyche which each individual must overcome- the need to be right. People have so little understanding of the deeper meaning of their particular gospels that they try to make God fit into their limited understanding and assume the role of God for themselves.
Doesn't matter what they call themselves, they are so "right' that they think can do any damned thing in the name of God.

OK, so the spectrum runs from Taliban to Baptist?

98 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:48:15pm

re: #91 ihateronpaul

Yes, I remember that one. Didn't exactly instill confidence in me.

99 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:48:18pm

re: #57 albusteve

just adding a little snap to it...Freeman should be immediately targeted

I am completely certain that OR and Randall Terry could immediately be charged with incitement to violence. Unfortunately, such transgressions don't carry a stiff enough penalty in the present case for my tastes. RICO opens some interesting doors, however; it could allow the leaders of such groups to be charged with conspiracy to commit a more serious crime - such as murder.

100 vxbush  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:48:25pm

re: #87 vxbush

Now such individual comments are also disgusting. But you specifically said "movement", and I want to make it clear that some organizations that can be classified as part of the anti-abortion movement are not supporting this.

Individuals on a website have not generally posted whether they are part of the specific anti-abortion movement (and I would generally not assume someone is part of an organized movement just because they hold such views).

Just trying to be clear here.

More clarification. I wish I could say all, but I haven't done that much research.

101 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:48:33pm

re: #76 lobo91

Exactly. The gist of it was, "People who belong to violent anti-government groups may do more anti-governmenty-stuff in the future."

Not terribly useful to law enforcement agencies.

That was my opinion then, and remains my opinion now.

There are extremists, and right-wing extremists have a quite disturbing tendency to have guns and undertake individual actions. But that's a truism, and not a useful observation.

102 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:48:41pm

re: #14 Million Dollar Man

I'd like to hear a pro-life view on what legal punishment should be meted out for performing abortions, then. People condemn "vigilante" action as though they'd be fine if the doctor had been executed legally.

Although morally (in my opinion) reprehensible, performing an abortion is not illegal. Just as building a seperate room for babies surviving abortion procedures to be put so they may die of starvation or exposure is not illegal. Personally, I protest with my pocketbook and do not go near doctors who perform abortions or the clinics where they are performed. As a believer in God, I also believe that God will punish those who murder innocent children for profit. Or anyone who murders children for that matter.

I would like to see more restraints on abortions. I've known at least one woman who used abortion as a method of birth control. Counceling for those seeking abortion. How many prospective parents are there on the adoption lists. Waiting, praying, hoping, for the opportunity to love and raise a child? I see no reason at all for a late term abortion when a c-section can be done instead and a live child born. The woman has already gone through six months (minimum) of pregnancy.

Has anyone, anywhere, done a study on the reasons a woman gives for a third term abortion?

That all being said, murdering the doctor is not a solution.

103 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:49:11pm
104 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:49:20pm

re: #66 Million Dollar Man

You're missing the point. People are lamenting the "vigilante" aspect of the killing, which implicitly condones the act if it was done with due process.

That was the other way to interpret your comment. I reversed my previous down-ding.

I'm sure there are some people whose position is "Tiller deserved to be killed, but people shouldn't take the law into their own hands." I hope there aren't any of those people here.

105 Egregious Philbin  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:49:28pm

Guys like this are one of the reasons I can't call myself a Christian anymore.

Praise Xenu

What are the laws regarding vicarious liability and the hate sites he posted at?

106 Racer X  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:49:47pm

re: #91 ihateronpaul

Well to be fair her earlier statements weren't exactly encouraging on the topic

[Link: afp.google.com...]

That proves it! She was Roeder's accomplice!

*rolls eyes*

107 ArchangelMichael  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:50:39pm

re: #58 Mardukhai

During the 70s, the "Free Men" movement was an egalitarian anti-Feminist organization with chapters all over the country. Their message was, "If women want equality, they can pay for their own dates."

A little different.

I thought that was NOMAAM.

/

108 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:50:39pm

re: #87 vxbush

Now such individual comments are also disgusting. But you specifically said "movement", and I want to make it clear that organizations that can be classified as part of the anti-abortion movement are not supporting this.

Individuals on a website have not generally posted whether they are part of the specific anti-abortion movement (and I would generally not assume someone is part of an organized movement just because they hold such views).

Just trying to be clear here.

But there are some organizations who support this. See the updates above. When I said "many in the anti-abortion movement," I wasn't referring to specific organizations, obviously -- but there are many, many people who are anti-abortion who are cheering on the murderer.

And some of them have blogs. I'm not going to link to specific blogs, but you can easily find more than one so-called "Christian" blogger who is either not condemning the murder, or outright supporting it.

I don't like this, and it gives me no joy to report it. But it's a fact. There's a big problem here.

109 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:51:35pm

Flounce!

110 avanti  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:51:39pm

re: #102 Eowyn2

Just as building a seperate room for babies surviving abortion procedures to be put so they may die of starvation or exposure is not illegal.

Just to be clear allowing babies to die is not legal in any of the 50 states, special room or not. That is infanticide, and is illegal.

111 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:51:40pm

re: #102 Eowyn2


Has anyone, anywhere, done a study on the reasons a woman gives for a third term abortion?

I could try to look into that. But it would help if by "third term" you mean "third trimester" (weeks 27+ of gestation) or "abortion at term," which is defined as 36-40 weeks of gestation.

112 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:51:41pm

re: #93 DaddyG

Perhaps you can cite a post where this kind of thinking was forwarded. I don't see it either. In fact most posters here with a Christian or similar viewpoint would include the New Testament and its prohibition on murder and respect for the rule of law as a key component of their belief system.

I don't have the New Testament verse, but it's one where Jesus tells someone they should forgive one who has wronged them not seven times, but seventy times seven times.

/and yes, i know - here come the "what about the 491st time?" questions

113 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:51:43pm

That's a really long flounce.

114 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:51:45pm

re: #103 Blazer in RIC

Don't like it here? Logoff and don't log back in. No one is keeping you here against your will.

Bu-bye now, please don't come back, ya hear?

115 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:51:55pm

re: #99 SixDegrees

I am completely certain that OR and Randall Terry could immediately be charged with incitement to violence. Unfortunately, such transgressions don't carry a stiff enough penalty in the present case for my tastes. RICO opens some interesting doors, however; it could allow the leaders of such groups to be charged with conspiracy to commit a more serious crime - such as murder.

the taps lead to the RICO applications....chances are good this organization goes beyond incitement...imo...that is if they are serious about practicing their anarchy...

116 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:52:23pm

re: #113 OldLineTexan

That's a really long flounce.

Carried over from the first abortion thread where it was ignored.

117 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:52:26pm

re: #113 OldLineTexan

And oh so deletable! ;)

118 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:52:28pm

re: #67 cgn38navy

Comparing Taliban to Baptist is a bad comparison. The major goal of taliban is ruling through oppression. The major goal of Babtists is the "ice tea social". This guy was a nut job, he used religion as his excuse.

He imposed his religious views on those who disagreed with them through murder.

The OP is absolutely correct. This is no different at all from what the Taliban aspire to. Attempts to justify such an action through reference to scripture only amplify the resemblance.

119 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:52:35pm

Another flounce-off, with insulting comments deleted! Bye now.

120 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:52:44pm

With this idiot killing the doctor, he has compltely wiped debate about the horrific practice of late term abortions off the table. It'll now become the equivalent of the illegal immigration debate which has gone from Illegal Immigration, to Un-Documented Workers, to just plain old Immigrants."

121 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:52:44pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

Flounce!

Crash and Burn!

/pat travers

122 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:52:51pm

re: #82 Charles

Well, it didn't use the name "Scott Roeder" specifically, so maybe it was vague on that point.

Charles, I'm sorry, but stating a truism isn't a useful observation.

The fact that there are right wing extremists isn't up for debate. But the report wouldn't have helped spot Roeder; actual law enforcement follow-up on his other activities might have. The DHS report didn't help find him before he murdered Dr. Tiller.

Now, if you think - as I do - that it might be a very good time for Operation Rescue to take a long, hard look at itself, and for the FBI to at least set a couple interns to looking at what was said in the forums, and what is being said all over the place now, you're not going to get any complaints from me. Especially if they find some cross-posting from groups that quite definitely are extremist, that might be useful.

123 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:04pm

#103 vanished right before my eyes. I thought there was something wrong with my vision.

124 Racer X  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:11pm

That had to be the stupidest flounce yet.

People, keep it short and sweet. Oh, and mention "Humping The Shark".

125 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:12pm

re: #108 Charles

Charles, troll downstairs needs your attention.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

126 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:15pm

re: #113 OldLineTexan

Probably written in advance just waiting for right moment.

127 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:17pm

re: #113 OldLineTexan

That's a really long flounce.

And I missed it. Crap.

128 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:21pm

re: #103 Blazer in RIC You seem to be contextually challenged. Neither Rose or Charles have ever been caught associating with groups that advocated murder nor have they been found with bomb parts in the trunk of their cars (bicycles).

Painful consequences on this blog means getting your account whacked.

History and context are your friend.

(/Although I'd want to avoid Irish Rose in a bar brawl...)

129 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:34pm

re: #124 Racer X

That had to be the stupidest flounce yet.

People, keep it short and sweet. Oh, and mention "Humping The Shark".

Ick.

130 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:46pm

re: #97 OldLineTexan

OK, so the spectrum runs from Taliban to Baptist?


The choice of the word baptist was made in haste- any other descriptive word would do- how about right- to- lifer or pro- choicer- or self- righteous fool?
It wasn't a comparison or a spectrum- unrighteousness is where you find it-

If I have to explain it, then obviously the statement needed some work.

131 Kragar  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:48pm

re: #127 Ward Cleaver

And I missed it. Crap.

I feel left out

132 KingKenrod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:52pm

According to this story, the Feds have joined the investigation and are offering protection to other abortion doctors:

[Link: www.upi.com...]

These actions tell me the Feds are looking at treating this as an act of terrorism.

133 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:54:04pm

re: #118 SixDegrees

He imposed his religious views on those who disagreed with them through murder.

The OP is absolutely correct. This is no different at all from what the Taliban aspire to. Attempts to justify such an action through reference to scripture only amplify the resemblance.

Roeder's a Baptist?

134 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:54:15pm

re: #112 Ward Cleaver

I don't have the New Testament verse, but it's one where Jesus tells someone they should forgive one who has wronged them not seven times, but seventy times seven times.

/and yes, i know - here come the "what about the 491st time?" questions


I know this isn't Christian of me to say but anyone who would take that to mean a literal count is an idiot.

135 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:54:24pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Probably written in advance just waiting for right moment.

WWHAAAAA ,,, I stepped away for a minute and missed it! I so do love a rant !

136 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:54:34pm

re: #125 Jimmah

Double flounce.

137 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:54:36pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Probably written in advance just waiting for right moment.

It would have to be practiced, I would think, like any other dance move.

138 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:54:43pm

re: #119 Charles

Another flounce-off, with insulting comments deleted! Bye now.

Same post two threads over.

139 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:54:45pm

re: #120 Russkilitlover

With this idiot killing the doctor, he has compltely wiped debate about the horrific practice of late term abortions off the table. It'll now become the equivalent of the illegal immigration debate which has gone from Illegal Immigration, to Un-Documented Workers, to just plain old Immigrants."

Leave it to some moron like Roeder to set things back.

140 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:54:46pm

re: #132 KingKenrod

According to this story, the Feds have joined the investigation and are offering protection to other abortion doctors:

[Link: www.upi.com...]

These actions tell me the Feds are looking at treating this as an act of terrorism.

Yep. U.S. Marshalls.

141 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:54:54pm

FLounce?

142 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:54:55pm

re: #68 Ward Cleaver

People can read scripture however they want, to justify anything they like. That doesn't make it scriptural, or moral. Tiller's murder was unjustified, no matter where you stand on abortion.

Given Roeder's apparent justification, I'm curious how he got around Romans 12:19 . . .it's pretty definitive.

143 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:55:02pm

re: #106 Racer X

That proves it! She was Roeder's accomplice!

*rolls eyes*

I'm not saying that, but I am saying it sure seemed like she was reaching for all the votes she could get instead of taking a firm stand on the issue at the time.

144 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:55:14pm

re: #134 DaddyG

I know this isn't Christian of me to say but anyone who would take that to mean a literal count is an idiot.

I'll forgive you.

/this time

/

145 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:55:24pm

re: #134 DaddyG

I know this isn't Christian of me to say but anyone who would take that to mean a literal count is an idiot.

Exactly. It's just sarcasm. We know what Jesus meant - let it go.

146 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:55:37pm

re: #143 ihateronpaul

I'm not saying that, but I am saying it sure seemed like she was reaching for all the votes she could get instead of taking a firm stand on the issue at the time.

OMG, politicians acting like politicians.

147 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:55:42pm

re: #87 vxbush

Now such individual comments are also disgusting. But you specifically said "movement", and I want to make it clear that organizations that can be classified as part of the anti-abortion movement are not supporting this.

Individuals on a website have not generally posted whether they are part of the specific anti-abortion movement (and I would generally not assume someone is part of an organized movement just because they hold such views).

Just trying to be clear here.

Is Randall Terry part of the movement?

148 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:55:55pm

re: #131 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I feel left out

I missed it too. Sounds like someone really put some effort into it, too. Oh well.

By the way, I have a little something to report about on the subject of Chryslergate. It's kind of lengthy, so I'll wait until things veer off-topic or we get an open thread.

149 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:56:01pm
150 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:56:09pm

re: #145 Ward Cleaver

Exactly. It's just sarcasm. We know what Jesus meant - let it go.

Sarcasm on my part, that is.

151 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:56:13pm

re: #134 DaddyG

I know this isn't Christian of me to say but anyone who would take that to mean a literal count is an idiot.

By the 490th time of forgiving someone remembering the wrong is hard to do.

152 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:56:22pm

re: #145 Ward Cleaver

Exactly. It's just sarcasm. We know what Jesus meant - let it go.


Oops forgot my sarc tag. I was smiling as I read your comment.

/breathing deeply now :-)

153 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:56:25pm

re: #138 Creeping Eruption

Same post two threads over.

multiple warheads...they are getting more sophisticated

154 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:56:42pm

re: #132 KingKenrod

There was a lot of activity at the killers house holding prayer meetings and such. I'm sure they're looking into his contacts to see if there's a larger plan in place. This stuff also inspires copycats. The next few months are going to be pretty dangerous for workers in women's health clinics.

155 jcm  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:56:43pm

re: #114 FurryOldGuyJeans

Don't like it here? Logoff and don't log back in. No one is keeping you here against your will.

Bu-bye now, please don't come back, ya hear?

Didn't even last long enough to carve a hind quarter off and throw on the BBQ.

156 Kragar  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:56:44pm

re: #148 Last Mohican

I missed it too. Sounds like someone really put some effort into it, too. Oh well.

By the way, I have a little something to report about on the subject of Chryslergate. It's kind of lengthy, so I'll wait until things veer off-topic or we get an open thread.

I've got an open thread kind of statement which has been simmering for a while now.

157 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:57:09pm

re: #91 ihateronpaul

Well to be fair her earlier statements weren't exactly encouraging on the topic

[Link: afp.google.com...]

Her statement today seems pretty clear.

158 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:57:42pm

re: #150 Ward Cleaver

Sarcasm on my part, that is.


I dunno. I believe Jesus was capable of the occasional stinging remark and that may be one of them. I like his banter with the Pharasees.

159 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:57:55pm

re: #156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I've got an open thread kind of statement which has been simmering for a while now.

well, busta move!....

160 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:57:59pm

re: #156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I've got an open thread kind of statement which has been simmering for a while now.

If you were OR, I'd imagine it had something to do with Adriana Lima.

161 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:58:00pm

re: #155 jcm

Didn't even last long enough to carve a hind quarter off and throw on the BBQ.

I honestly can't say I would have wanted any if they had stayed. That troll was toxic to the core.

162 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:58:06pm

I went to make popcorn and missed the flounce, DAMN!

163 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:58:14pm

re: #151 FurryOldGuyJeans

By the 490th time of forgiving someone remembering the wrong is hard to do.

Do you know my wife? /ducks and runs in serpentine pattern.

164 jcm  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:58:33pm

re: #141 Jewels (AKA Julian)

FLounce?

When they put on a pink tutu, tell Charles how he's going to burn in hell, and he runs a stupid blog and they wouldn't be caught dead posting here.

165 ArchangelMichael  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:58:37pm

re: #136 Sharmuta

Double flounce.

Because it was just oh so important! He had to make sure we all saw it. So we know what a noble cause he martyred himself for!

////

166 vxbush  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:58:40pm

re: #108 Charles

But there are some organizations who support this. See the updates above. When I said "many in the anti-abortion movement," I wasn't referring to specific organizations, obviously -- but there are many, many people who are anti-abortion who are cheering on the murderer.

And some of them have blogs. I'm not going to link to specific blogs, but you can easily find more than one so-called "Christian" blogger who is either not condemning the murder, or outright supporting it.

I don't like this, and it gives me no joy to report it. But it's a fact. There's a big problem here.

I have no disagreement with you on these items. But as much as you hate saying "there are groups who do not espouse these points of view," I wish you would say it a bit more often, because people often forget.

It is very sad to find out there are so many holding this position.

167 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:58:45pm

re: #153 albusteve

multiple warheads...they are getting more sophisticated

Oh, he was Korean.

/

168 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:59:00pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

There was a lot of activity at the killers house holding prayer meetings and such. I'm sure they're looking into his contacts to see if there's a larger plan in place. This stuff also inspires copycats. The next few months are going to be pretty dangerous for workers in women's health clinics.

Tiller himself was under protection after Slepian's murder.

169 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:59:07pm

re: #91 ihateronpaul

Well to be fair her earlier statements weren't exactly encouraging on the topic

[Link: afp.google.com...]

I'm no huge fan of Sarah Palin, but that was a typical MSM anti-Palin hit piece. An utter bunch of crap.

170 Kragar  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:59:12pm

re: #160 Ward Cleaver

If you were OR, I'd imagine it had something to do with Adriana Lima.

Nope, and nothing serious, which is why I'll bide my time for an open thread

171 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:59:18pm

re: #163 DaddyG

Do you know my wife? /ducks and runs in serpentine pattern.

My ex made it an exercise for me, ugh :%P%

172 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:59:20pm

re: #162 DEZes

I went to make popcorn and missed the flounce, DAMN!

Next time eat chips.

173 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:59:40pm

re: #147 Thanos

Is Randall Terry part of the movement?

When Bill O'Reilly puts Randall Terry on his show, I think it's fair to say he's a pretty public face for the anti-abortion movement.

174 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:59:42pm

re: #132 KingKenrod

I don't know what else to call it, even if Roeder was acting out of his own delusions.

175 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:59:53pm

re: #143 ihateronpaul

I'm not saying that, but I am saying it sure seemed like she was reaching for all the votes she could get instead of taking a firm stand on the issue at the time.

You mean she was being a "GASP" politician !?!?!?!?!

176 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:59:58pm

re: #172 Ward Cleaver

Next time eat chips.

OLT wanted popcorn. ;)
Extra butter.

177 opnion  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:00:01pm

re: #120 Russkilitlover

With this idiot killing the doctor, he has compltely wiped debate about the horrific practice of late term abortions off the table. It'll now become the equivalent of the illegal immigration debate which has gone from Illegal Immigration, to Un-Documented Workers, to just plain old Immigrants."

Correct, this guy has set their cause back. There are many honest people who oppose abortion who would not condone violence. Likewise there are many people on the pro choice side who came to their views honestly.
The disturbing thing is that there are those who cheer what this guy did.

178 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:00:10pm

re: #170 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nope, and nothing serious, which is why I'll bide my time for an open thread

And mine, on the other hand, is too serious. It contains two p-values.

179 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:00:32pm

re: #105 Egregious Philbin

Guys like this are one of the reasons I can't call myself a Christian anymore.

Praise Xenu

What are the laws regarding vicarious liability and the hate sites he posted at?

Not sure I understand your question. But sites are not liable for comments posted by members. This has been upheld many times. Lots of sites are diligent about deleting offensive postings, but they're under no legal requirement to do so, and cannot be held responsible for them.

On the other hand, if the site itself incites violence, that opens the site and whatever organization it represents to a whole world of legal hurt. Posting an abortion doctor's likeness or name in the form of a wanted poster, for example, has explicitly been held as an incitement to violence against the doctor, and the site hosting such content can be prosecuted for it.

See also an earlier post concerning whether RICO might be employed to provide a framework for a much more serious conspiracy charge.

180 jcm  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:00:35pm

re: #161 FurryOldGuyJeans

I honestly can't say I would have wanted any if they had stayed. That troll was toxic to the core.

Little liquid O2 will fix that.

181 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:00:49pm

re: #176 DEZes

OLT wanted popcorn. ;)
Extra butter.

The flounce was so vile it would have curdled the butter.

182 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:01:09pm

re: #176 DEZes

OLT wanted popcorn. ;)
Extra butter.

I'm glad I thought of it, although it was not the flounce I expected.

183 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:01:25pm

re: #181 FurryOldGuyJeans

The flounce was so vile it would have curdled the butter.

A toxic troll burger, yuk.

184 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:01:38pm

re: #172 Ward Cleaver

Next time eat chips.

Buffalo Chips

185 cgn38navy  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:01:40pm

re: #118 SixDegrees

Key point, regardless of what you think, Baptist's DO NOT organize to oppress. Similarity - Muslim sects DO NOT organize to oppress (although that may be debatable). Taliban is a quasi government organization that uses religion as a tool to oppress. Apples and oranges.

186 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:01:42pm

re: #115 albusteve

the taps lead to the RICO applications....chances are good this organization goes beyond incitement...imo...that is if they are serious about practicing their anarchy...

I strongly suspect you are correct.

Terrorism is terrorism. If we're going to fight it, we need to fight it on all fronts.

187 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:01:50pm

re: #167 OldLineTexan

Oh, he was Korean.

/

well in that case...

SHIELDS UP MR. SCOTT!

188 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:01:56pm

re: #181 FurryOldGuyJeans

The flounce was so vile it would have curdled the butter.

That's why we have a safety officer. To keep everyone at a safe distance from the flounceway.

189 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:02:12pm

re: #147 Thanos

Is Randall Terry part of the movement?

He founded Operation Rescue, and they finally had to boot him. They're radical, but he's too radical for them.

190 ointmentfly  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:02:17pm

re: #166 vxbush

Its not surprising given how the hardcore anti abortion groups feel about abortion being no different than murder. They are collectively right on that razors edge and every once in awhile a crackpot is going to step over that line.

Wonder what happens if he gets the death penalty. Zombie with camera to the courthouse....?

191 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:03:47pm

re: #37 DaddyG

How do you find out who is upding and down dinging a comment?

192 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:04:05pm

re: #187 albusteve

well in that case...

SHIELDS UP MR. SCOTT!

These people have a warped drive. It's not at all advanced.

193 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:04:29pm

re: #191 Eowyn2

How do you find out who is upding and down dinging a comment?

Click the ding enumerator, or watch LGF Spy.

194 hous bin pharteen  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:04:40pm

Its not like he is going to be hanging out with the future president of the USA or anything.

195 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:04:43pm

On the other side of the nut line, I see an ad in the sidebar that Bill Ayers is taking calls at a book signing this Sunday.

Anyone planning to call in and try to get past the screeners?

196 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:04:47pm
197 jcm  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:04:59pm

re: #191 Eowyn2

How do you find out who is upding and down dinging a comment?

LGF Spy....

Now I have to kill you...
///// ;-P

198 callahan23  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:05:17pm

re: #191 Eowyn2

How do you find out who is upding and down dinging a comment?

Click on the number that is displayed on the left of the minus.

199 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:05:58pm

re: #195 Naso Tang

On the other side of the nut line, I see an ad in the sidebar that Bill Ayers is taking calls at a book signing this Sunday.

Anyone planning to call in and try to get past the screeners?

I would love to get a book signed by him. For personal use.

Is public defecation considered protected speech?

/

200 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:06:15pm

re: #169 Last Mohican

You can listen to the interview. It was a big turn off for me.

201 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:06:16pm

Randall Terry on the murder of Dr. Tiller:

Utterly deplorable.

202 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:06:48pm

re: #191 Eowyn2

How do you find out who is upding and down dinging a comment?

Are you getting down dinged?

203 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:06:50pm

re: #191 Eowyn2

How do you find out who is upding and down dinging a comment?

Click on the number beside the comment.

204 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:06:54pm

re: #199 OldLineTexan

I would love to get a book signed by him. For personal use.

Is public defecation considered protected speech?

/

It depends on how you... well... actually never mind.

205 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:07:01pm

re: #197 jcm

LGF Spy....

Now I have to kill you...
///// ;-P

Charles has spys?

206 Racer X  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:07:14pm

re: #191 Eowyn2

How do you find out who is upding and down dinging a comment?

Put Ten Dollars in an unmarked manilla envelope and place into the trash receptacle outside your office. I'll be by in about ten minutes to swap it with a list of names.

207 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:07:21pm

re: #201 Charles

Randall Terry on the murder of Dr. Tiller:


[Video]Utterly deplorable.

Is that the same statement I saw a transcript of earlier today?

208 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:07:34pm

re: #196 buzzsawmonkey

Buffalo chips, won't you come out tonight
Come out tonight, come out tonight
Buffalo chips, won't you come out tonight
From the bison herd's big hairy moons?

Gals! Buffalo GALS

209 jcm  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:07:56pm

re: #205 albusteve

Charles has spys?

Just Stinky, but he's everywhere!

210 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:08:20pm

re: #201 Charles

Yeesh!

211 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:08:21pm
212 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:08:26pm

re: #207 Dianna

Is that the same statement I saw a transcript of earlier today?

It's much more detailed. "He reaped what he sowed."

213 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:08:31pm

re: #201 Charles

Randall Terry on the murder of Dr. Tiller:


[Video]

Utterly deplorable.

He still keeps digging the hole.

214 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:09:02pm

re: #185 cgn38navy

Key point, regardless of what you think, Baptist's DO NOT organize to oppress. Similarity - Muslim sects DO NOT organize to oppress (although that may be debatable). Taliban is a quasi government organization that uses religion as a tool to oppress. Apples and oranges.

No difference between the Taliban and what so many members of the self-styled religious right openly state are their goals of imposing a Christian theocracy on the country using the power of government. All apples. All rotten.

215 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:09:53pm

re: #212 Charles

It's much more detailed. "He reaped what he sowed."

Oh, man.

He's always been a loon. Now he's made himself the sort of loon who thinks murder is just fine - provided it's for his reasons. Disgusting low-life.

216 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:10:00pm

re: #211 buzzsawmonkey

Did the Buffalo gals wear their Niagara falls?

Ha HAAA
Their boyfriends keep a box of Niagara handy.

217 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:10:01pm

re: #199 OldLineTexan

I would love to get a book signed by him. For personal use.

Is public defecation considered protected speech?

/

Err....no, but the thought is OK. (Excuse me while I go think of something else)/

218 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:10:23pm

re: #210 Killgore Trout

Yeesh!

Think he's going to regret saying that? I sure hope so.

219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:11:01pm

Fanatics are fanatics are fanatics.

220 KingKenrod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:11:07pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

There was a lot of activity at the killers house holding prayer meetings and such. I'm sure they're looking into his contacts to see if there's a larger plan in place. This stuff also inspires copycats. The next few months are going to be pretty dangerous for workers in women's health clinics.

I don't know how those workers can function, knowing they are targeted by violent zealots.

221 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:11:36pm

re: #203 Dianna

Click on the number beside the comment.

I just get a new window with the same comment

222 cgn38navy  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:11:46pm

re: #214 SixDegrees
I must have missed those sermons(Obama excuse inserted here). Most of the ones I went to were about forgiveness and keeping my you know what in my pants.

223 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:12:07pm

re: #218 Dianna

No. He doesn't care.

224 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:12:15pm

re: #221 albusteve

I just get a new window with the same comment

The number next to the little dingers? Not the comment number?

225 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:12:25pm

re: #200 Killgore Trout

You can listen to the interview. It was a big turn off for me.

I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy it either. Palin gives very bad interview.

But still, choosing that headline is deliberately misleading. It makes it look like she thinks that bombing an abortion clinic isn't as bad as terrorism, or maybe that it's even okay, or maybe even virtuous.

She didn't say anything like that. It's a complicated question. Is bombing an abortion clinic terrorism? In my opinion, no. Because terrorism, I believe, is defined as violent action taken against persons or property with no military value, for the intended purpose of achieving political change. A person who blows up an abortion clinic probably isn't trying to achieve any political change.

My point is, her answer wasn't polished, but she did not say that bombing abortion clinics is okay, which is what the hit piece tried to imply.

226 Kragar  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:12:29pm

re: #221 albusteve

I just get a new window with the same comment

the number on the right, not the left

227 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:12:41pm

re: #215 Dianna

Oh, man.

He's always been a loon. Now he's made himself the sort of loon who thinks murder is just fine - provided it's for his reasons. Disgusting low-life.

To be fair, Terry has been calling for the murder of abortion doctors for many, many years. There's nothing new about it.

228 jcm  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:12:43pm

re: #214 SixDegrees

No difference between the Taliban and what so many members of the self-styled religious right openly state are their goals of imposing a Christian theocracy on the country using the power of government. All apples. All rotten.

This is one Christian who would oppose a Christian Theocracy just like an Islamic one.

229 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:12:51pm

re: #223 Killgore Trout

No. He doesn't care.

When a bunch of people who've been following him take a step back and say, "whoa!", he may begin to.

230 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:13:14pm

re: #224 Dianna

The number next to the little dingers? Not the comment number?

yes, got it

231 callahan23  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:13:16pm

re: #221 albusteve

I just get a new window with the same comment

The number left of the minus dinger.

232 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:14:11pm

re: #231 callahan23

The number left of the minus dinger.

The technical term is "ding enumerator."

233 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:14:45pm

re: #227 SixDegrees

To be fair, Terry has been calling for the murder of abortion doctors for many, many years. There's nothing new about it.

I wasn't sure that I had that right - it's more than possible I was confusing him with someone else.

234 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:14:48pm

re: #201 Charles

Randall Terry on the murder of Dr. Tiller:


Utterly deplorable.

I feel dirty after watching that.

235 calcajun  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:14:56pm

re: #228 jcm

Make that two Christians.

Besides--we know what Christian Theocracies look like--look at the time when the Pope was an earthly as well as spiritual leader.

(I still say the worst thing that ever happened to the Christian Church was when it became the official state religion of Rome)

236 callahan23  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:15:12pm

re: #232 Last Mohican

The technical term is "ding enumerator."

That is definitely beyond my pay grade.
;-)

237 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:15:26pm

re: #222 cgn38navy

I must have missed those sermons(Obama excuse inserted here). Most of the ones I went to were about forgiveness and keeping my you know what in my pants.

Tune into Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan, Tom DeLay or any number of leaders of the religious right. It's a short walk to hear this sort of thing.

238 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:15:44pm

re: #232 Last Mohican

The technical term is "ding enumerator."

The Enumerator. " I'll be back"

239 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:16:20pm

re: #201 Charles

What an evil pious prick.

240 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:16:20pm

re: #228 jcm

This is one Christian who would oppose a Christian Theocracy just like an Islamic one.

Very glad to hear it. I believe this is how most people here feel, too.

241 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:16:26pm

re: #225 Last Mohican


A person who blows up an abortion clinic probably isn't trying to achieve any political change.


They're trying to stop abortions by making to too dangerous for the doctors. The RoP does this all the time with bombing liquor stores, music shop, internet cafes and girls schools. It is terrorism.

242 rightymouse  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:16:33pm

re: #65 Gus 802

Family members said Roeder had struggled with mental health issues throughout his life, though he never thought so.

It's as I thought. The murder had all the markings of a person with serious mental health issues. It doesn't excuse him at all, but it goes a long way in explaining the behaviors. Anyone who has worked with, or knows of people with mental illness, realize their capacity for irrational and delusional obsessions.

243 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:16:35pm

re: #238 DEZes

The Enumerator. " I'll be DING back"


sorta sounds like Archie Bunker!

244 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:16:39pm

Was Scott Roeder a disgruntled vet like the DHS warned us about? No?

Does the gunning down of two soldiers today at a recruiting station qualify as raising the issue of Leftwing hate or gun control?

I'm just trying to understand the narrative without cramming my head completely up my ass.

245 Kragar  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:16:39pm

re: #238 DEZes

The Enumerator. " I'll be back"

OK, DEZ gave me a reason to post my beef.

The new Terminator movie sucked.

246 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:16:40pm

re: #214 SixDegrees

No difference between the Taliban and what so many members of the self-styled religious right openly state are their goals of imposing a Christian theocracy on the country using the power of government. All apples. All rotten.

Rosie? That you?

247 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:16:46pm

re: #239 Jimmah

What an evil pious prick.

Well said!
Upding.

248 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:17:42pm

re: #243 sattv4u2

sorta sounds like Archie Bunker!

Thanks for fixing that. ;)

249 Captain Jack  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:18:01pm

This anti-abortion loon can somehow be used to make that vague DHS report credible and then be tied to discredit most conservative positions and advocates of those positions yet 19 Islamic Fundamentalists who kill 3000 Americans are stridently said to not represent true Muslims or any part of the Islamic faith.

250 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:18:11pm

re: #245 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OK, DEZ gave me a reason to post my beef.

The new Terminator movie sucked.

Say its not so?

251 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:18:15pm

re: #229 Dianna

He's a very spooky dude. Something about the anger in his voice in that clip while he's talking about how peaceful he is really gave me the willies.

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:18:33pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

That's my thought too. Some of the scriptural debates we've had here in the past have been interesting but people always see what they want in scripture. Religion is a Rorschach test. There are Muslims who've never been on a Jihad, Jews who eat cheeseburgers, etc. Everybody does their own thing anyways.

More than that, any major religion has multiple groups and subgroups, and only a few major Christian groups answer to a central authority.

253 lobo91  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:18:35pm

re: #220 KingKenrod

I don't know how those workers can function, knowing they are targeted by violent zealots.

That's sort of the point of terrorism...

254 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:18:38pm

re: #244 DANEgerus

There's no "narrative." There is a certain amount of disagreement.

255 cgn38navy  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:18:47pm

re: #235 calcajun
I agree. It's not really possible for the United States to become a theocracy and still observe the constitution. There is a big difference between some group of believers getting enough votes to pass a local morality law and a "theocracy". It's silly to think we are getting more conservative. Blue laws have been going away slowly and steadily for the last 30 years.

256 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:18:49pm

re: #244 DANEgerus


I'm just trying to understand the narrative without cramming my head completely up my ass.


Too late.

257 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:18:59pm

re: #249 Captain Jack

This anti-abortion loon can somehow be used to make that vague DHS report credible and then be tied to discredit most conservative positions and advocates of those positions yet 19 Islamic Fundamentalists who kill 3000 Americans are stridently said to not represent true Muslims or any part of the Islamic faith.

I don't know who you're talking about with that comment, but that's certainly never been my position or that of LGF.

258 Racer X  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:19:14pm

re: #238 DEZes

The Enumerator. " I'll Ding you back"

/fixed

259 KingKenrod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:19:21pm

re: #225 Last Mohican

I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy it either. Palin gives very bad interview.

But still, choosing that headline is deliberately misleading. It makes it look like she thinks that bombing an abortion clinic isn't as bad as terrorism, or maybe that it's even okay, or maybe even virtuous.

She didn't say anything like that. It's a complicated question. Is bombing an abortion clinic terrorism? In my opinion, no. Because terrorism, I believe, is defined as violent action taken against persons or property with no military value, for the intended purpose of achieving political change. A person who blows up an abortion clinic probably isn't trying to achieve any political change.

My point is, her answer wasn't polished, but she did not say that bombing abortion clinics is okay, which is what the hit piece tried to imply.

I'd say terrorism is trying to achieve through violence what you can't achieve through legal means. That makes it political.

260 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:19:21pm

Note to Conservative Politicians tied to or close to Randall Terry:

Better run like the wind away....

261 Kragar  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:19:29pm

re: #250 DEZes

Say its not so?

I really wanted to like it, but it was a major let down. The only thing choppier than the plot was the editing.

262 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:19:34pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

He's a very spooky dude. Something about the anger in his voice in that clip while he's talking about how peaceful he is really gave me the willies.

I got about 4 seconds in before I couldn't listen, and asked if it were the statement I'd read a transcript of.

It sounded worse. I just couldn't abide it.

263 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:19:42pm

re: #244 DANEgerus

He was a separatist known for picking up bomb equipment.

264 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:19:52pm

re: #257 Charles

I don't know who you're talking about with that comment, but that's certainly never been my position or that of LGF.

Or that of DHS, for that matter.

265 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:19:52pm

Religion can be used as a camouflage for evil. I've seen it first-hand.

266 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:20:33pm

re: #242 rightymouse

It's as I thought. The murder had all the markings of a person with serious mental health issues. It doesn't excuse him at all, but it goes a long way in explaining the behaviors. Anyone who has worked with, or knows of people with mental illness, realize their capacity for irrational and delusional obsessions.

Yeah. Of course when you get the family members point of view they'll tend to provide a more "positive" opinion. It does provide some different or expanded pieces of information.

267 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:21:01pm

re: #81 OldLineTexan

Remember, she's stupid.

/

I'm not particularly more impressed with her credentials now, but that's a good statement.

268 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:21:05pm

re: #244 DANEgerus

I have a feeling you have to unzip your fly often to see where you're going. WTF does one heinous act (Roeder) have to do with another (the soldiers killing)?

One is CLEARLY looking like a fanatic anti-abortionists act. Perhaps you can't see that because your zipper is closed!@

269 rightymouse  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:22:14pm

re: #266 Gus 802

Yeah. Of course when you get the family members point of view they'll tend to provide a more "positive" opinion. It does provide some different or expanded pieces of information.


I don't find mental illness to be 'positive' in any way shape or form for the person suffering from it or their families who have to deal with the crazies.

270 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:22:31pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

He's a very spooky dude. Something about the anger in his voice in that clip while he's talking about how peaceful he is really gave me the willies.

Randall Terry was always a creep. In the video that all I can think about, "damn this guy's a creep."

271 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:22:40pm

re: #249 Captain Jack

Only if conservatives let them. They let them when they support the rabid anti-abortionists who are rationalizing away Roeder's evil deed.

272 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:22:44pm

re: #256 Killgore Trout

Too late.


great minds- beat me to it

273 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:23:02pm

Not sure what to make of this from the "libertarian" Reason.com.

"Why Is Killing Abortionists Wrong?"

Irony? Stirring the shit? Or are they serious?

274 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:23:17pm

re: #269 rightymouse

I don't find mental illness to be 'positive' in any way shape or form for the person suffering from it or their families who have to deal with the crazies.

OK, biased not positive.

275 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:23:20pm

By the way, the shooter in Little Rock has not even been identified, and no one knows what his motives were. It's more than a little premature to start calling that a "left wing" act.

276 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:23:22pm

re: #272 Capitalist Tool

;)
He walked right into that one.

277 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:23:38pm

re: #249 Captain Jack

This anti-abortion loon can somehow be used to make that vague DHS report credible and then be tied to discredit most conservative positions and advocates of those positions yet 19 Islamic Fundamentalists who kill 3000 Americans are stridently said to not represent true Muslims or any part of the Islamic faith.

Your point is......?

278 Captain Jack  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:23:50pm

Charles- Talking about the left wing spin...they are after the talk radio folks pretty hard to pin the "blame". I hope it does not become the mainstream media narrative. Its like how the MSM covered the TEA parties...they would show the crazies that show up at every demonstration and try to say they represent the movement while ignoring all the kooks at the left wing events.

279 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:24:05pm

re: #273 Cato the Elder

Not sure what to make of this from the "libertarian" Reason.com.

"Why Is Killing Abortionists Wrong?"

Irony? Stirring the shit? Or are they serious?

I overheard a very similar comment yesterday afternoon.

280 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:24:10pm

re: #275 Charles

By the way, the shooter in Little Rock has not even been identified, and no one knows what his motives were. It's more than a little premature to start calling that a "left wing" act.

Not too early to call it a CHICKEN wing one though!

281 1SG(ret)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:24:15pm

re: #265 quickjustice

As can politics!

282 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:24:18pm

re: #261 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I really wanted to like it, but it was a major let down. The only thing choppier than the plot was the editing.

My nephew loved it, when it hits rental status, I will see. ;)

283 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:24:26pm

re: #16 albusteve

time to dust off the old internal wiretapping schemes and RICCO laws

It's RICO Act - the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.

Do we really want to go there? ;)

284 rightymouse  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:24:44pm

re: #274 Gus 802

OK, biased not positive.


Yes.

285 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:25:23pm

re: #275 Charles

By the way, the shooter in Little Rock has not even been identified, and no one knows what his motives were. It's more than a little premature to start calling that a "left wing" act.

He's probably lawyered up. If he was any kind of extremist he probably would have talked by now. Might have been a personal vendetta. Still to early to tell however and until we hear otherwise we can't say. I can take a guess however that he's probably not a left wing extremist.

286 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:26:25pm

re: #285 Gus 802

He's probably lawyered up. If he was any kind of extremist he probably would have talked by now. Might have been a personal vendetta. Still to early to tell however and until we hear otherwise we can't say. I can take a guess however that he's probably not a left wing extremist.

You are reasoning ahead of your evidence.

287 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:26:33pm

re: #285 Gus 802

He's probably lawyered up. If he was any kind of extremist he probably would have talked by now. Might have been a personal vendetta. Still to early to tell however and until we hear otherwise we can't say. I can take a guess however that he's probably not a left wing extremist.

Mighta just been Guido...

288 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:26:42pm

re: #285 Gus 802

He's probably lawyered up. If he was any kind of extremist he probably would have talked by now. Might have been a personal vendetta. Still to early to tell however and until we hear otherwise we can't say. I can take a guess however that he's probably not a left wing extremist.


talked by now? how ,, he's in CUSTODY. not a TV STUDIO. Is Roeder "talking already"?

289 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:26:51pm

re: #285 Gus 802

He's probably lawyered up. If he was any kind of extremist he probably would have talked by now. Might have been a personal vendetta. Still to early to tell however and until we hear otherwise we can't say. I can take a guess however that he's probably not a left wing extremist.

I will go out on a limb here.
I say the shooter is a no good SOB.

290 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:26:54pm

re: #273 Cato the Elder

Stirring the shit. They are going along with the "no good christian could accept abortion" argument that the hard fundamentalist Christians use. There's no inbetween, it's either or, which is kind of the view that Roeder had.

291 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:26:56pm

re: #249 Captain Jack

Both the pro lifers and the muslims have now used this argument to disavow connections with terrorism committed in their name, in both instances it's a fallacy. I am not saying that all pro lifers or indeed all muslims are terrorists or supporters of terrorism, just pointing out that 'no true Scotsman' is a fallacy no matter who is using it.

292 Kragar  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:27:14pm

re: #282 DEZes

My nephew loved it, when it hits rental status, I will see. ;)

The 13-21 male demographics will love it. The plotholes and shoddy character development and editing are a let down for anyone expecting more.

293 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:27:15pm

re: #279 Dianna

I overheard a very similar comment yesterday afternoon.

Read the article (it's very short) and tell me what point you think they're making. I'm confused.

Are they merely pointing out that if you believe abortion is murder then deadly force is justified to prevent it - i.e. calling the pro-life Roeder enablers on their hypocrisy for disowning him?

Or are they saying they agree with that proposition themselves?

Feeling very dull-witted today...

294 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:27:21pm

Cross-posted from an earlier thread on whether abortion was legal in England and the U.S. under common law before Roe v. Wade: "Black's Law Dictionary (8th Edition) at 6 states, "Modern legal historians dispute whether, and to what extent, abortion constitute a crime at English common law. One view finds that, at most, abortion was an ecclesiastical crime, and concludes that the common law allowed a woman and her abortionist to terminate a pregnancy at all stages of gestation without secular penalties. Another claims that all abortions are at least secular wrongs to the fetus and that only the problem of proving a causal relationship between some abortions and fetal death prevented the punishment of all abortions. Substantial authority exists for a middle ground: although no penalties attached to an abortion before the fetus had quickened, performing a postquickening abortion was a common law crime, most likely a misdemeanor." Susan Frelich Appleton, "Abortion", in 1 Encyclopedia of Crime and Justice 1, 1 (Sanford H. Kadish ed., 1983)."

295 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:28:00pm

re: #292 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The 13-21 male demographics will love it. The plotholes and shoddy character development and editing are a let down for anyone expecting more.

My nephew is 22, your good.

296 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:28:01pm

re: #285 Gus 802

He's probably lawyered up. If he was any kind of extremist he probably would have talked by now. Might have been a personal vendetta. Still to early to tell however and until we hear otherwise we can't say. I can take a guess however that he's probably not a left wing extremist.

I was thinking the motives might be personal as well and not political, but who knows? We'll find out more later, to be sure.

297 callahan23  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:29:06pm

re: #201 Charles

Well, sorry I couldn't stand watching this bigoted prick for more than a minute and a half.
And that was already too much of an abuse to my stomach.
People like him have that instinctive effect on me. I run away as far as I can or I'll go into verbal-attack mode.
Here, with those nifty Intarweb-tools I have the choice of not listening to such creeps. - Good for my intestines.

298 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:29:08pm

re: #225 Last Mohican

I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy it either. Palin gives very bad interview.

But still, choosing that headline is deliberately misleading. It makes it look like she thinks that bombing an abortion clinic isn't as bad as terrorism, or maybe that it's even okay, or maybe even virtuous.

She didn't say anything like that. It's a complicated question. Is bombing an abortion clinic terrorism? In my opinion, no. Because terrorism, I believe, is defined as violent action taken against persons or property with no military value, for the intended purpose of achieving political change. A person who blows up an abortion clinic probably isn't trying to achieve any political change.

My point is, her answer wasn't polished, but she did not say that bombing abortion clinics is okay, which is what the hit piece tried to imply.

Is a person who blows up a synagogue trying to achieve political change? Are they a terrorist? Are we really so nice about our use of that word?

299 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:30:29pm

re: #293 Cato the Elder

Read the article (it's very short) and tell me what point you think they're making. I'm confused.

Are they merely pointing out that if you believe abortion is murder then deadly force is justified to prevent it - i.e. calling the pro-life Roeder enablers on their hypocrisy for disowning him?

Or are they saying they agree with that proposition themselves?

Feeling very dull-witted today...

The way I read it (admittedly, influenced by the remark overheard yesterday that upset me) was that the article is justifying this murder as "vigilance" (meaning, in popular mis-pronunciation, "vigilantism"), excusing vigilance and the actions of a people who feel that they are denied and excluded from access to justice.

300 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:30:39pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

I was thinking the motives might be personal as well and not political, but who knows? We'll find out more later, to be sure.

Yeah, we'll see until then trying to guess might set of a couple of hair triggers.

301 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:30:54pm
302 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:31:00pm

re: #235 calcajun

Make that two Christians.

Besides--we know what Christian Theocracies look like--look at the time when the Pope was an earthly as well as spiritual leader.

(I still say the worst thing that ever happened to the Christian Church was when it became the official state religion of Rome)

The medieval church never created what I'd identify as a theocracy, exactly. Calvin's Geneva is probably a better example.

303 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:31:50pm

re: #110 avanti

How about allowing a 'fetus' to die once it is outside the womb?
Is that legal?
Chicago?

304 avanti  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:31:57pm

re: #227 SixDegrees

To be fair, Terry has been calling for the murder of abortion doctors for many, many years. There's nothing new about it.

Not just that, he whips the pro lifers into a frenzy by misleading propaganda. I'm pro choice, but I'd be upset if i believed Tiller was casually aborting women with healthy fetuses at 8 and 9 months, that stashing living babies in a special room to die of starvation or similar BS.

305 Chekote  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:32:14pm

The Bible has NOTHING to say about abortion. Thou shall not kill if the accurate translation is used, it says thou shall not commit UNLAWFUL killing. There is so much misinformation being put out by some in the pro-life movement. The Dred Scott decision is another example. According to some in the pro-life movement, SCOTUS found that AAs were not "persons". Not true. The question before SCOTUS in the Dred Scott case was whether "persons" of African decent were entitled to the same rights are whites. SCOTUS read the Constitution and the events surrounding the writing of it and decided that the founding fathers never intended to give the same rights to persons of African decent as white Americans.

306 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:33:03pm

re: #294 quickjustice

this is kind of interesting too....
Roman Catholicism and abortion access
Pagan & Christian beliefs 400 BCE -1980 CE

Christianity has had various views on the topic throughout history.

307 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:33:14pm

Just look at the Lefty blogs today... they reflect exactly the implication of this post we are commenting upon : "Poster Boy for DHS 'Right Wing Extremist' Report", in that everyone from O'Reilly to the "Christianists" are being held collectively guilty.

I see few saying he was a "lone deranged individual with no association to his religion" as would be the required narrative if he was in the ROP. Why the MainStreamMedia isn't even using scare quotes on the word "terrorist".

Well? Is he really a Poster Boy for DHS 'Right Wing Extremist'? Is Scott Roeder one of those "dangerous vets" the DHS demonized? No?

Contrast that to the speculation being tossed about for the equally tragic shooting of our boys at the recruiting station this very day. Is that mentally ill individual a "Poster Boy for DHS 'Left Wing Extremist' Report"? Is he proof Olbermann should be taken off the air?

Am I wrong to presume that the second shooting, if not both, will eventually be crafted into an argument for gun control?

The narrative will reign supreme, we are watching it live, lets see who is correct.

308 cgn38navy  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:33:15pm

re: #273 Cato the Elder
I find that to be a sympathetic argument. However, just because I understand the reasoning, doesn't mean I'd agree. It's a theoretical question, the shooter had no foresight or ability to see into the future and there is absolutely no guarantee that it saved lives. Also, there is a callous disregard for the life of the victim. But isn't that the case in every murder? Also, the whole point of rule of law is that one person/group doesn't get to arbitrarily impose their will. We live in a society where the laws can be changed, so people don't have to resort to violence.

309 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:33:41pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

St. Augustine (354-430 CE) reversed centuries of Christian teaching in Western Europe, by returning to the Aristotelian Pagan concept of "delayed ensoulment." He wrote 7 that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed

310 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:33:56pm

re: #225 Last Mohican

S

he didn't say anything like that. It's a complicated question. Is bombing an abortion clinic terrorism? In my opinion, no. Because terrorism, I believe, is defined as violent action taken against persons or property with no military value, for the intended purpose of achieving political change. A person who blows up an abortion clinic probably isn't trying to achieve any political change.

?

The abortion clinic is property, it's terrorism. If you don't think there's political aim behind the radicals in the anti abortion movement, you haven't been paying attention.

311 1SG(ret)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:35:36pm

re: #301 Iron Fist

That link comes up really funny!

312 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:35:40pm

re: #307 DANEgerus

Well? Is he really a Poster Boy for DHS 'Right Wing Extremist'? Is Scott Roeder one of those "dangerous vets" the DHS demonized? No?

He was a separatists known for picking up bomb making equipment. I don't know what part of this doesn't strike you as right wing extremism.

313 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:35:55pm

re: #301 Iron Fist

I agree with the point you made in that post, if it's the one I'm thinking of, but your link isn't working.

314 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:35:57pm

re: #303 Eowyn2
Great point and or question!
In some states killing a pregnant woman is double homicide!
So, Live birth or living outside the womb and allow the infant to die (Botched Termination) has to fall into an intent question.
I am and will remain confused at the legal ? here!
Morally? I'm firm in what I believe!

315 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:36:44pm

re: #307 DANEgerus

Here's your problem (well ,, ONE!)

You keep bringing up the soldiers shotting today at the recruitment office. Unlike the Tiller killing, we have NO information about the soldiers killer
NONE
NADA
ZERO
ZILCH
BUPKIS
Can you understand the distinction?

316 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:36:54pm
317 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:37:13pm

re: #301 Iron Fist

Did you see my post over the weekend on Biblical references to abortion. I took it from Exodus 21:22-25 or so. I don't want to simply repeat the post. I was wondering what you (and anyone else, of course) thought of it from a Jewish perspective. It seems pretty clear cut to me, but you never hear "pro-choice" groups quote the Bible. I wonder why that is?

:-)

I assume you're referring to the passage about miscarriage as a result of violence? I don't think it has much to do with the modern abortion debate, since it clearly refers to an involuntary end to the pregnancy. The language suggests that payment would be made to the husband for the loss of the child. I don't know the commentaries on it.

318 justdanny  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:37:28pm

Abortion discussion. Blech. :(

I dont have female reproductive parts.
I know a good woman that had an abortion.
I have paid for a loved one to have an abortion.
Reckon these dregs want to kill me?

Abortion. Blech! :(

319 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:37:44pm

re: #156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I've got an open thread kind of statement which has been simmering for a while now.

"firsties?"

320 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:38:31pm

re: #319 Eowyn2

"firsties?"

He hates T4.

321 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:38:33pm

re: #316 Iron Fist

Based on what, exactly? I have him pegged for a Black Muslim, which I guess isn't exactly a Leftist. But Leftists tend to support them, and they have similar antipathy towards our military.

What are you basing your guesses on?

Nothing, nevermind. Forget I brought it up.

322 callahan23  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:38:34pm

re: #301 Iron Fist

Did you see my post over the weekend on Biblical references to abortion. I took it from Exodus 21:22-25 or so. I don't want to simply repeat the post. I was wondering what you (and anyone else, of course) thought of it from a Jewish perspective. It seems pretty clear cut to me, but you never hear "pro-choice" groups quote the Bible. I wonder why that is?

:-)

Fixed that link for ya.

323 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:38:37pm

re: #307 DANEgerus

No, because we have a lot more on Roeder, and zero information on the guy who shot the soldier.

We know Roeder's political philosophy, his religious philosophy, the political extreme groups he was a part of, the separatist movement he was part of, and the priors .... like carrying a bomb in the trunk of his car.

These guys are not all lone whackos, Roeder in particular was nurtured and fed. I can show you the roots if you want. The Taliban can't exist anywhere without local sympathizers. Think on that a bit.

324 avanti  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:39:57pm

re: #303 Eowyn2

How about allowing a 'fetus' to die once it is outside the womb?
Is that legal?
Chicago?

If it is viable, all efforts must be made to save it. If it's a 16 week old fetus for example, there is no way to make it viable outside the womb, even using extraordinary measures.

325 calcajun  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:40:24pm

re: #273 Cato the Elder

Not sure what to make of this from the "libertarian" Reason.com.

"Why Is Killing Abortionists Wrong?"

Irony? Stirring the shit? Or are they serious?

Potentially serious. The "justification" that people like that put forth is that they are killing in defense of others--they are waging a form of "just" war.

326 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:40:27pm

re: #315 sattv4u2

I am comparing the speculative outpouring of each of the events that preceded informed reporting and what it reflected. Are you suggesting Andrew Sullivan made an informed judgement when he leapt to condemn the "Christianists".

327 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:41:19pm

OT ,,,,The genius Michael Moore weighs in(hehehehehe) on the GM bankruptcy
one amazing conclusion


Don't put another $30 billion into the coffers of GM to build cars. Instead, use that money to keep the current workforce -- and most of those who have been laid off -- employed

There ya go ,, don't build any more PRODUCT to sell,, just, like, you know , PAY people!

[Link: www.michaelmoore.com...]

328 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:41:23pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

this is kind of interesting too....
Roman Catholicism and abortion access
Pagan & Christian beliefs 400 BCE -1980 CE

Christianity has had various views on the topic throughout history.

they also fed non conforming folks to the lion, kept multiple kingdoms in slavery, etc etc. let us hope that the human race has come a bit further along.

329 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:41:31pm
330 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:41:39pm

re: #323 Thanos

We do... Are you also suggesting Andrew Sullivan made an informed judgement when he leapt to condemn the "Christianists".

331 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:42:03pm

This is early and subject to confirmation:

Just after 5:00 this evening, Little Rock Police say Abulhakin Muhammad, also known as Carlos Bledsoe, is charged with capital murder and 15 counts of terroristic acts after a shooting at an Army/Navy recruitment center on Rodney Parham Road in Little Rock.

332 calcajun  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:42:20pm

re: #327 sattv4u2

OT ,,,,The genius Michael Moore weighs in(hehehehehe) on the GM bankruptcy
one amazing conclusion

Don't put another $30 billion into the coffers of GM to build cars. Instead, use that money to keep the current workforce -- and most of those who have been laid off -- employed

There ya go ,, don't build any more PRODUCT to sell,, just, like, you know , PAY people!

[Link: www.michaelmoore.com...]

Like paying farmers not to grow food in the 1930's. Brilliant.

333 VioletTiger  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:42:33pm

Do we have some stealth dingers today? Don't recognize the names.

334 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:42:47pm

re: #326 DANEgerus

I am comparing the speculative outpouring of each of the events that preceded informed reporting and what it reflected. Are you suggesting Andrew Sullivan made an informed judgement when he leapt to condemn the "Christianists".

No, I'm not "suggesting" anything. I'm commenting on FACTS at hand
What we now KNOW about Roeder
We don't even KNOW anything about the other!

335 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:42:51pm

re: #312 Sharmuta

He was a separatists known for picking up bomb making equipment. I don't know what part of this doesn't strike you as right wing extremism.

The Weather underground had a thing for bombs, They were far from right wing, and if that were all there was to it, I could understand the confusion on Danes part.
This shooter is very right wing.

336 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:42:53pm

re: #326 DANEgerus

Why bring sullivan into this? What part of this are you not getting, there's nothing "speculative" here:

UPDATE at 6/1/09 2:24:18 pm:

Scott Roeder wasn’t just a subscriber to pro-murder magazine “Prayer and Action News” — he was a contributor. And now they’re calling him a “hero.”

Scott Roeder had written several opinion pieces about Dr. Tiller for Prayer and Action News. In fact, many in the anti-abortion movement already consider Roeder a martyr and a hero.

UPDATE at 6/1/09 2:27:39 pm:

The owner of “Prayer and Action News” says that Roeder didn’t commit a crime, and that his actions were supported by Christian scripture.

Scott Roeder, 51, of Merriam, Kan., whom authorities have described as a suspect in Sunday’s fatal shooting here of George Tiller, was once a subscriber and occasional contributor to a newsletter, Prayer and Action News, said Dave Leach, an anti-abortion activist from Des Moines who runs the newsletter. Mr. Leach said that he had met Mr. Roeder once, and that Mr. Roeder had described similar views to his own on abortion.

Commenting on Dr. Tiller’s death, Mr. Leach said, “To call this a crime is too simplistic.” He added, “There is Christian scripture that would support this."

337 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:43:04pm
Just after 5:00 this evening, Little Rock Police say Abulhakin Muhammad, also known as Carlos Bledsoe, is charged with capital murder and 15 counts of terroristic acts after a shooting at an Army/Navy recruitment center on Rodney Parham Road in Little Rock.

Little Rock Police Chief Stuart Thomas says Muhammad targeted military personnel.

23-year-old Private William Long, of Conway, died as a result of his injuries.

18-year-old Private Quinton Ezeagwula, of Jacksonville, was also shot. Chief Thomas says he is in stable condition and will recover.

Around two o'clock Monday afternoon, police and bomb squad officers went Muhammad's apartment off Napa Valley Drive in the Bristol Park complex.

The military revealed information about what the victims were doing at the center. Lt. Col. Thomas F. Artis, Commander of the Oklahoma recruiting battalion which has command over the Little Rock recruiting station says the soldiers were enlisted men, not officers, and that they did not work as recruiters. Lt. Col. Artis says they were part of a recruiting program called "hometown recruiting assistance."

He says recruiters use these soldiers to tell their stories to talk to potential recruits, and that it is a volunteer position they do while they are visiting or based back in their home region." Lt. Col. Artis says he does not know who the suspect was, and says it's not clear if the man was in the military or not.

After the suspect's vehicle was stopped, the Little Rock Bomb Squad was called in over concern about some bags found inside. The scene was closed off and traffic along the I-30 entrance ramp from I-630 was backed up for some time. The vehicle was finally towed away just before one o'clock.

The shooting happened just after 10:15 at the Ashley Square Shopping Center at 9112 North Rodney Parham Road, not far from the Reservoir Road intersection.

Hastings says the gunshots were fired from a black SUV that sped off.

Crime scene tape had a large area of the shopping center roped off, from an old Blockbuster video store a few stores down to a Honey Baked Ham store.

A witness to the shooting told KARK 4 they were sitting at a nearby traffic light when they heard the gunfire and saw a vehicle speed away from the scene. Another witness saw it all happen from an apartment complex across the street.

The FBI is assisting in the investigation. Police have been questioning the suspect since his arrest, but have not yet filed any charges.

Tune in to KARK 4 News for the latest on the story.

[Link: arkansasmatters.com...]

338 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:43:12pm

re: #309 Killgore Trout
The problem is, we don't know when the soul is tied into the body. Certain mystic teachings make claims, but other than that, we don't know, at least I don't.
Does the whole abortion controversy boil down to a question of timing?
No soul yet- Ok?
After that, look out!

If those getting/performing abortions during certain terms of gestation are destroying human life, then they will pay a price.

Abortion proponents claim a personal freedom to decide their course of action, but they do not understand the word "freedom".
Freedom means that we are free to live up to the consequences of our own thoughts and actions, nothing more.

339 CEQAttorney  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:43:22pm

I have to disagree with Charles on a certain level. While I concur that there are specific "right-wing" groups or organizations that have the potential for violence, the DHS report in question did not identify any such groups or organizations.

The report was devoid of any such information. It gave out vague statements about "anti-government" groups but did not identify any such groups or state what "anti-government" means.

In fact, the report only mentions abortion twice and does not discuss violence attributed to anti-abortion groups. If anything, this report did not properly warn of the potential for such violence.

Keep in mind about the purpose of this report. It was supposed to go out to police officials and let them know to be on the look out for "right-wing extremists." However, it provides no real guidance to police officials on how to identify "right wing extremists" except by pointing out beliefs that are common among most conservatives such as an appreciation for smaller government, enforcement of our borders, and gun control.

Thus, if police take the report seriously, they should look at every "tea party" rally as a potential hot spot for "right-wing extremists."

That is the problem I had with the report. It was not specific enough to be useful.

Now, using this recent event to justify the report is plain wrong. The DHS report never discussed the potential for an anti-abortion activist to murder an abortion doctor. Thus, even if the report was legitimate, it was ineffective in this instance.

Either way, the connection here is weak and not correct.

340 pianobuff  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:43:24pm

re: #315 sattv4u2

Here's your problem (well ,, ONE!)

You keep bringing up the soldiers shotting today at the recruitment office. Unlike the Tiller killing, we have NO information about the soldiers killer
NONE
NADA
ZERO
ZILCH
BUPKIS
Can you understand the distinction?


Info starting to trickle in now....

Police say the suspect, Abulhakin Muhammad, also known as Carlos Bledsoe, is believed to have been specifically targeting military personnel. Authorities say Muhammad apparently acted alone in the shootings. He is being charged with one count of Capital Murder and 15 counts of terroristic threatening. Police searched Muhammad's apartment off Mara Lynn Drive Monday afternoon, seizing evidence related to the shooting.

The FBI is also involved in the investigation.

Little Rock police caught up with Muhammad shortly after the shooting at the intersection of I-30 and I-630 near downtown Little Rock. Little Rock Police Lt. Terry Hastings says weapons, including an assault rifle, were found inside the SUV. A shotgun and another weapon were also found inside the vehicle.

341 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:44:02pm

re: #333 VioletTiger

Do we have some stealth dingers today? Don't recognize the names.

here ,,,, i'll ding you just to make you feel safe !

// j/k

342 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:44:15pm

re: #330 DANEgerus

Who do you think he means when he uses the word? I'm not getting where you are going here.

343 Chekote  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:44:17pm

Another lie being put out by some in the pro-life movement is that Roe v. Wade permits an abortion up to the day before delivery. Once the fetus reaches the point of viability states can ban abortion. Lie after lie. Their crusade against Sanger is also full of lies. Sanger actually never advocated abortion. Instead, she used abortion as an argument for making contraceptives legal.

344 VioletTiger  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:44:41pm

re: #327 sattv4u2

OT ,,,,The genius Michael Moore weighs in(hehehehehe) on the GM bankruptcy
one amazing conclusion


Don't put another $30 billion into the coffers of GM to build cars. Instead, use that money to keep the current workforce -- and most of those who have been laid off -- employed

There ya go ,, don't build any more PRODUCT to sell,, just, like, you know , PAY people!

[Link: www.michaelmoore.com...]

Evidently, he hasn't read Atlas Shrugged or he's know how that would turn out.

345 avanti  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:45:32pm

re: #314 reloadingisnotahobby

Great point and or question!
In some states killing a pregnant woman is double homicide!
So, Live birth or living outside the womb and allow the infant to die (Botched Termination) has to fall into an intent question.
I am and will remain confused at the legal ? here!
Morally? I'm firm in what I believe!

The assumption is a pregnant woman, even at 2 or 4 months can potentially produce a live baby. If she has a abortion, or miscarriage at that gestation, there is no way to save the fetus. That's why most folks do not have funerals for miscarriages, we do not confer personhood on a non viable fetus.

346 1SG(ret)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:45:41pm

re: #324 avanti

When is 16 weeks considered late term?

347 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:46:14pm

re: #331 Gus 802

This is early and subject to confirmation:

Thanks for that.

348 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:46:33pm

re: #219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Fanatics are fanatics are fanatics.

That makes thrice, let make it four.

349 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:46:39pm

re: #333 VioletTiger

Do we have some stealth dingers today? Don't recognize the names.

Up, down or sideways dingers?

350 Racer X  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:46:48pm

I need to quit drinking / drink more.

There are quite a few comments here today that have me baffled.

351 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:46:50pm

re: #317 SanFranciscoZionist

I assume you're referring to the passage about miscarriage as a result of violence? I don't think it has much to do with the modern abortion debate, since it clearly refers to an involuntary end to the pregnancy. The language suggests that payment would be made to the husband for the loss of the child. I don't know the commentaries on it.

This passage treats causing the loss of the unborn child through violence as essentially a crime against property, with punishments to match. Doesn't exactly give a strong biblical foundation for the convictions of the pro-life movement if you ask me.

352 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:47:11pm
353 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:47:12pm

re: #347 Dianna

Thanks for that.

You're welcome.

Got the tip from Twitter.

354 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:47:29pm

re: #337 Gus 802

I was betting on a personal vendetta, but I guess we can't rule out SJS at this point.

355 callahan23  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:47:37pm

re: #331 Gus 802

This is early and subject to confirmation:

Just after 5:00 this evening, Little Rock Police say Abulhakin Muhammad, also known as Carlos Bledsoe, is charged with capital murder and 15 counts of terroristic acts after a shooting

Slightly off topic but:
What the f*ck is wrong with the name 'Carlos Bledsoe' anyway?
Do these RoP idjits need to violate every decent name with those fantasy muslim names like Abulhakin Muhammad ?

356 soxfan4life  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:48:00pm

re: #327 sattv4u2

OT ,,,,The genius Michael Moore weighs in(hehehehehe) on the GM bankruptcy
one amazing conclusion


Don't put another $30 billion into the coffers of GM to build cars. Instead, use that money to keep the current workforce -- and most of those who have been laid off -- employed

There ya go ,, don't build any more PRODUCT to sell,, just, like, you know , PAY people!

[Link: www.michaelmoore.com...]


Money for nothing, no wonder the lefties worship the guy.

357 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:48:14pm

re: #245 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OK, DEZ gave me a reason to post my beef.

The new Terminator movie sucked.

Did you really expect it to be good?
Well plotted?
Well developed characters?
C'mon Krag, you gotta be kidding.
Its all about the graphics.

358 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:48:15pm

re: #340 pianobuff

Info starting to trickle in now....

Police say the suspect, Abulhakin Muhammad, also known as Carlos Bledsoe, is believed to have been specifically targeting military personnel. Authorities say Muhammad apparently acted alone in the shootings. He is being charged with one count of Capital Murder and 15 counts of terroristic threatening. Police searched Muhammad's apartment off Mara Lynn Drive Monday afternoon, seizing evidence related to the shooting.

The FBI is also involved in the investigation.

Little Rock police caught up with Muhammad shortly after the shooting at the intersection of I-30 and I-630 near downtown Little Rock. Little Rock Police Lt. Terry Hastings says weapons, including an assault rifle, were found inside the SUV. A shotgun and another weapon were also found inside the vehicle.


Err, uhm, time to suppress that name- use Christian name only, suppress references to Muslim connections, look for opportunities to point out shooter's "reasonable" grievances with US ...

359 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:48:15pm

re: #355 callahan23

Slightly off topic but:
What the f*ck is wrong with the name 'Carlos Bledsoe' anyway?
Do these RoP idjits need to violate every decent name with those fantasy muslim names like Abulhakin Muhammad ?

Prison convert no doubt.

360 VioletTiger  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:48:28pm

re: #329 Iron Fist

Why don't you download a copy of Malwarebytes and clean it up for her? Works great for stubborn spyware.

[Link: www.malwarebytes.org...]

361 rightymouse  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:48:33pm

re: #323 Thanos

No, because we have a lot more on Roeder, and zero information on the guy who shot the soldier.

We know Roeder's political philosophy, his religious philosophy, the political extreme groups he was a part of, the separatist movement he was part of, and the priors .... like carrying a bomb in the trunk of his car.

These guys are not all lone whackos, Roeder in particular was nurtured and fed. I can show you the roots if you want. The Taliban can't exist anywhere without local sympathizers. Think on that a bit.

This what bothers me a lot - that people with obsessions and violent tendencies aren't recognized by these so-called Christians and helped rather than fanning the flames of already fevered minds.

362 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:48:36pm

re: #146 OldLineTexan

OMG, politicians acting like politicians.

Yes, cause abortion bombing is an insignificant political issue where a blanket statement like that applies.

/////////

363 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:48:45pm

Two shootings, two murders, separated by hours. How illustrative are the contrasts?

An abortion doctor is horrifically gunned down allowing us to compare and contrast his assailant's Media treatment with the treatment indulged upon every "Sudden Jihad" syndrome wacko. How many of those has there been? Dozens? Or maybe 60-70 over the last 7 years?

Then two of our boys at a recruiting station are gunned down allowing us another opportunity to compare and contrast the uninformed speculation about that previous crime with it's absence in the second instance.

Of course we aren't jumping to conclusions regarding the intent, identity and political orientation of the second shooter... that is the point.

364 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:48:58pm

re: #331 Gus 802

This is early and subject to confirmation:

Link?

365 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:49:21pm

Another gem from the Mikey Moore Piece


To help pay for this, impose a two-dollar tax on every gallon of gasoline. This will get people to switch to more energy saving cars or to use the new rail lines and rail cars the former autoworkers have built for them.


THAT'LL go over well with the 'common folk" he says he speaks for!

[Link: www.michaelmoore.com...]

366 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:49:32pm

re: #340 pianobuff

Oh, please, let him not be another prison convert!

367 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:49:50pm

re: #339 CEQAttorney

I disagree. The DHS report clearly identified two factors that Roeder had. If he'd been picked up a week earlier on his "freeman license tag" we wouldn't be talking, because they'd have checked up on it due to reports like the one you mentioned.

368 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:49:52pm

re: #364 Eowyn2

Link?

[Link: arkansasmatters.com...]

369 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:49:52pm

re: #350 Racer X

I need to quit drinking / drink more.

There are quite a few comments here today that have me baffled.

May I recommend Four Roses Small Batch?
or Pappy van Winkle?

370 Racer X  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:49:58pm

re: #360 VioletTiger

Why don't you download a copy of Malwarebytes and clean it up for her? Works great for stubborn spyware.

[Link: www.malwarebytes.org...]

What, no Mac OS version?

371 pianobuff  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:49:59pm

re: #364 Eowyn2

Link?

Here

372 cgn38navy  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:50:04pm

re: #338 Capitalist Tool

There you go with that regligion again. Souls, shmoles.

I happen to agree with you 100%. The problem is many progressives don't believe that and are basically unconvinced that a fetus or an old person who is disabled (euthanasia, by gawd) has the right to inconvience them. They speak of quality of life and other debateable issues, but I don't trust their motives. I really think they are just being selfish. They don't want to be responsible for another human being.

373 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:50:08pm
374 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:50:42pm

re: #366 Dianna

Oh, please, let him not be another prison convert!

If this is the right guy here's a partial of his record:

CRIMINAL OFFENSE 2
Offense Date:
Case Number: K2490
Offense Type: Bulglary
Offense Code:
Offense Description: BURGLARY-RESIDENTIAL
Date Reported:

He had to have served time.

375 jcm  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:50:47pm

re: #333 VioletTiger

Do we have some stealth dingers today? Don't recognize the names.

Normal, some folks have figured out the mouse, but haven't graduated to the keyboard.

376 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:50:49pm

re: #348 debutaunt

That makes thrice, let make it four.

But what he tells us three times is true!

377 avanti  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:50:56pm

re: #346 1SG(ret)

When is 16 weeks considered late term?

Thus my argument, if a fetus is aborted at say 30 weeks,(Very rare BTW) and is alive, all efforts must be made to save it, but at 16 weeks, that is not a option.

378 soxfan4life  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:50:59pm

re: #363 DANEgerus

Two shootings, two murders, separated by hours. How illustrative are the contrasts?

An abortion doctor is horrifically gunned down allowing us to compare and contrast his assailant's Media treatment with the treatment indulged upon every "Sudden Jihad" syndrome wacko. How many of those has there been? Dozens? Or maybe 60-70 over the last 7 years?

Then two of our boys at a recruiting station are gunned down allowing us another opportunity to compare and contrast the uninformed speculation about that previous crime with it's absence in the second instance.

Of course we aren't jumping to conclusions regarding the intent, identity and political orientation of the second shooter... that is the point.

Well one murder is by a radical extremist pro life right wing knuckledragger and the other was a result of GITMO. /////

379 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:51:06pm

re: #363 DANEgerus

How many of those has there been? Dozens? Or maybe 60-70 over the last 7 years?

There have been 4 ,,, exactly 4 abortion doctors killed in the USA. Each and every one a tragedy. Each and every one by a deranged fanatic. But the number is 4

380 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:52:01pm

re: #372 cgn38navy

ur>

381 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:52:04pm

re: #373 Iron Fist

I was apparently right. This story will dissappear within 48 hours. If you really, really care aboput it, it may be possible to find out what happens to the guy (he isn't going to walk, I don't expect), but the media will have forgotten him by Wednesday morning at the latest.

He doesn't fit the narritive they want to tell.

Yeah. That's why I didn't want to pursue my narrative before since I was getting ahead of myself. It will probably disappear but this is also a serious matter.

382 rightymouse  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:52:13pm

re: #355 callahan23

Slightly off topic but:
What the f*ck is wrong with the name 'Carlos Bledsoe' anyway?
Do these RoP idjits need to violate every decent name with those fantasy muslim names like Abulhakin Muhammad ?


Iron Fist called it first that I can see.

383 doubter4444  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:52:21pm

Sorry a bit of a rant ads this is something close to my experience.

re: #14 Million Dollar Man

I'd like to hear a pro-life view on what legal punishment should be meted out for performing abortions, then. People condemn "vigilante" action as though they'd be fine if the doctor had been executed legally.

See, the thing is, ABORTIONS ARE LEGAL.
(Sorry for the caps, I don't use them often, but in this case...)

The doctor would never be executed for performing them.
Even the charges of illegally performing them due to age and term and whatever, (which is illegal) that he was prosecuted for were dropped, and he was exonerated on all charges.
And for all the bull out there, I've read that for the vast majority of his cases he was performing late term abortions on non-viable fetuses, either one's who are dead in utero or unable to live one delivered.
Now one can stand there and say that late term abortions (or any for that matter, but lets stick with late term ones) should never, ever be performed, but who the hell are you to say that for everyone in the country?
Who are you to say that a baby must be born who's brain or internal organs are massively flawed and will not live a week?
This doctor by most sane accounts did that kind of work.

I have a daughter that had (has) a very rare and scary birth defect. And while we never thought about abortion (her case was not in that category where it would have been something we needed to consider), had the situation been worse, I don't know.
It was a devastating moment: we were happy and doing OK and really ready to have a baby.
The rest is history but we spent months at the NICU and saw amazing things... what the power of modern medicine can do.
We also saw many, many more parents in much worse situations that us. And they still kept the babies.
And then there were the others.... the ones you could not save.
In our hospital (NYU) the premies and those that were OK, and only in for a short stay were in front. As you went back into the ward the worse the condition the the babies.
We were in the middle.
The very back was dark and very quiet.
The poorest souls were there.
Everyday a crib or two would be moved up to be reused, meaning the poor thing had died.
These were the top-end on the situations the doctor might have worked on, where the possibility of life was faint but there.
And then there were others where it was was not even possible, even with everything man could do.
The trauma and the sorrow leaked from the back of the ward like a cave leaking utter darkness.
I'm 50 and started late with my family, so at least I had a little life experience for strenght and I still wept at the helplessness.
Was it better to bring these poor into this world because we could?
To keep a baby who is "unviable for sustainable life" on life support for a week, or month, or even longer, when if even 5 years ago (or less) it would die in delivery?
Are we, are you (and I mean those who absolutely think these things should never be preformed, not you personally, MDM), going to say tough luck, gut it out?

I actually have a ton of respect for the late term doctors who do this than those who it to women for elective reasons.
They don't just have people calling up to say hey, you know, I'm in my 8th month and I just decided I don't want this, can you do me a solid and give my perfectly formed fetus a DnC?
These doctors face soul crushing decisions everyday, and take it very seriously.

The real tragedy is the fact that their is no discussion of the moral and ethical obligations of modern medicine between the pro-life/pro-choice sides.
It's become a zero sum argument, a binary choice.
And it is not.

384 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:52:23pm

re: #363 DANEgerus

Bullshit, read upthread, we are getting information now, follow the links. We weren't speculating that much on Roeder either until we got the name and did some tracking. Quit with the distortions and lies.

385 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:52:30pm

re: #379 sattv4u2

How many of those has there been? Dozens? Or maybe 60-70 over the last 7 years?

There have been 4 ,,, exactly 4 abortion doctors killed in the USA. Each and every one a tragedy. Each and every one by a deranged fanatic. But the number is 4

And the last one was 11 years ago, so I can understand why people did not think this was a pressing, current problem until yesterday.

386 Racer X  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:52:36pm

re: #365 sattv4u2

Another gem from the Mikey Moore Piece

To help pay for this, impose a two-dollar tax on every gallon of gasoline. This will get people to switch to more energy saving cars or to use the new rail lines and rail cars the former autoworkers have built for them.

THAT'LL go over well with the 'common folk" he says he speaks for!

[Link: www.michaelmoore.com...]

I'm fairly certain the rising cost of gasoline last year helped push us into recession.

387 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:52:47pm

re: #374 Gus 802

If this is the right guy here's a partial of his record:

CRIMINAL OFFENSE 2
Offense Date:
Case Number: K2490
Offense Type: Bulglary
Offense Code:
Offense Description: BURGLARY-RESIDENTIAL
Date Reported:

He had to have served time.

Probably, but if it was 1st offense coupled with a small dollar amount of the theft and a lenient judge he may have had probation

388 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:52:57pm

Back to work. Later.

389 VioletTiger  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:53:04pm

re: #370 Racer X

What, no Mac OS version?

I thought Macs didn't get viruses ;)

390 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:53:09pm
391 AMER1CAN  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:53:12pm

I don't know of anyone who thinks late term abortions are okay (unless under extreme circumstances), and I certainly don't know of anyone who has gone through the process of making a baby, going through a pregnancy, and then watching that baby born, I know of no such people who are okay with a drive through for late term abortions.

If you had sex and don't want to get pregnant take the morning after pill. If you are indeed pregnant and decide you can't bare to bring life into this world, then go get an abortion.

But do not carry that baby for multiple months, do not give that baby a heart beat and a brain and a central nervous system, do not give that baby life and then decide you do not want the baby and think it's okay to have it terminated mere weeks before a delivery date.

I'm sorry, that's wrong.

392 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:53:30pm

re: #387 sattv4u2

Probably, but if it was 1st offense coupled with a small dollar amount of the theft and a lenient judge he may have had probation

True. The search engine I use doesn't pick up everything.

393 Racer X  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:53:53pm

re: #389 VioletTiger

I thought Macs didn't get viruses ;)

Heh.

I need to work on my snark.

394 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:53:55pm

re: #386 Racer X

I'm fairly certain the rising cost of gasoline last year helped push us into recession.

I'm fairly certain that the rising stomach caused Moore to be a fat f***!

//

395 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:54:13pm

re: #352 Iron Fist

That would be it, but I think you are mischaracterizing it. It draws a clear distinction between causing a miscarriage (a "property" or civil question) and causing the woman to die (involuntary manslaughter? Still, a capital crime). That is pretty stark, and pretty hard to deny from the passage. The primary justification people like this Roeder guy use to justify their crimes is that abortion (which is, effectively, causing a woman to miscarry) is murder.

It is kind of hard for that to stand up under this passage. Abortion may be a moral wrong (I personally believe that it is), but it isn't murder, at least not in the early stages (there have been some advancements in medicine since 3000 BC :-). And that is according to the Bible.

I think your interpretation is correct. Clearly, this wouldn't support, say, the legislation that's been proposed (passed?) in some places where the murder of a pregnant woman is considered a double homicide.

396 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:54:19pm

re: #363 DANEgerus

Your point is lost, I'm afraid.

We are only now beginning to see information about the Little Rock shooter. Just in the last 15 minutes, in fact.

It's called not reasoning ahead of your facts.

397 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:54:30pm

re: #377 avanti

Thus my argument, if a fetus is aborted at say 30 weeks,(Very rare BTW) and is alive, all efforts must be made to save it, but at 16 weeks, that is not a option.


Just curious....how do you "save" a fetus "aborted" at 30 weeks? Isn't that the late term procedure of sucking their brains out through their collapsed skulls? Kinda hard top CPR that one.

398 Chekote  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:55:08pm

"Christianity has had various views on the topic throughout history."

Because the Bible never explicitly addresses this issue.

399 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:55:26pm

USA Today picked it up:

Recruiter shot dead outside Army office

By William M. Welch, USA TODAY

A Muslim convert who said he was opposed to the U.S. military shot two soldiers outside an Arkansas recruiting station, killing one of the soldiers, police said Monday.

"This individual appears to have been upset with the military, the Army in particular, and that's why he did what he did," Little Rock Police Lt. Terry Hastings said in a phone interview.

"He has converted to Muslim here in the past few years," Hastings said. "To be honest we're not completely clear on what he was upset about. He had never been in the military."

Hastings identified the man in custody as Carlos Bledsoe, 24, of Little Rock, who was going by the name of Abdul Hakim Mujahid Muhammad. He did not have further details. The names of the soldiers were not released, nor was the condition of the wounded soldier.

Hastings said the attacker pulled up in a car outside an Army-Navy recruiting office about 10:30 a.m. local time and fired. The two soldiers were outside the office when shot.

According to the Associated Press, the vehicle was stopped on Interstate 630 a short time later and the suspect was taken into custody. Police found an assault rifle in the vehicle.

The recruiting office is part of a shopping center at a commercialized intersection. Jim Richardson, the manager at a drug store around the corner from the Army-Navy center, said people at the store didn't realize anything was amiss until hearing sirens outside.

"Nobody heard any gunshots," Richardson said.

Lt. Col. Thomas F. Artis of the Oklahoma City Recruiting Battalion, which oversees the Little Rock office, said the victims had just completed basic training and were not regular recruiters. He said they were serving two weeks in the Little Rock office.

As part of the Hometown Recruiting Assistance Program, the soldiers were sent to "talk to friends, folks in the local area. They can show the example, 'Here's where I was, and here is where I am,'" Artis said.

Artis said neither of the soldiers had been deployed for combat.

Steven Johnson, an 18-year-old recruit, was on his way to take a qualifying test when he found police cars at the scene. By early afternoon, Johnson was waiting patiently outside the yellow police tape that was blocking access to the office.

"I'm going to check and see if they're all right," he said.

400 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:55:47pm

re: #392 Gus 802

True. The search engine I use doesn't pick up everything.

the beta on BING is out, MS's new search engine, I've been trying it on and off. It had the article with the video I posted earlier way before google showed it.

401 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:55:47pm

re: #355 callahan23

Slightly off topic but:
What the f*ck is wrong with the name 'Carlos Bledsoe' anyway?
Do these RoP idjits need to violate every decent name with those fantasy muslim names like Abulhakin Muhammad ?

"His mama called him Clay, I'm-a call him Clay."

I think that was a Curtis cartoon, but I'm not sure.

402 1SG(ret)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:55:58pm

Can we somehow now state that some left leaning politicians (Murtha/Kerry) are inciting violence against our military with the rhetoric they spew? Does this make the shooting a left-wing issue?
I would say "no" to both questions, but the argument could be made?

403 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:56:21pm

re: #374 Gus 802

If this is the right guy here's a partial of his record:

CRIMINAL OFFENSE 2
Offense Date:
Case Number: K2490
Offense Type: Bulglary
Offense Code:
Offense Description: BURGLARY-RESIDENTIAL
Date Reported:

He had to have served time.

Oh, just great.

404 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:56:35pm

re: #356 soxfan4life

Money for nothing, no wonder the lefties worship the guy.

and the chicks for free...
alll you gotta do is work for gggggggg(m)

405 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:57:28pm

re: #386 Racer X

I'm fairly certain the rising cost of gasoline last year helped push us into recession.

DING DING DING
You get a Gold Star.

The unwarranted rise of the the cost of energy is the underlying reason behind all of the world's economic problems, not the lame reasoning that the Bank of Bullshitia loaned Bubba too much money on his new McMansion.

No one in officialdom speaks of that however, because it doesn't fit the plan.

The plan is to tax the very air you breathe and to decide who is worthy to breathe it.

406 Dave the.....  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:57:36pm

A convert.......those seem like the really wacko ones.

407 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:58:18pm
408 callahan23  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:58:24pm

re: #359 Gus 802

Prison convert no doubt.

No doubt.
But there again. What the f*ck is the attraction to a religion that says to submit particularly for a prison inmate? They should yell at every muslim 'converter' (?) "WTF I am never submitting to anybody, I am independent".
It goes to show how moronic lots of those inmates truly are.

409 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:58:43pm

re: #391 AMER1CAN

Apparently the scenario you describe almost never happens. From what I've read elsewhere, the majority of terminations Tiller performed were in cases where the baby would not survive at all, or only for a very limited and painful period. Many others were not what I'd call abortions at all; they were procedures to remove a fetus that had died in utero.

I didn't know any of this, and I'll bet most people didn't. Maybe if the media had provided a clearer picture of what Tiller was really doing, the level of fanaticism would have been lower. Instead, we get extreme rhetoric from both sides.

410 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:58:43pm

re: #365 sattv4u2

Another gem from the Mikey Moore Piece


To help pay for this, impose a two-dollar tax on every gallon of gasoline. This will get people to switch to more energy saving cars or to use the new rail lines and rail cars the former autoworkers have built for them.


THAT'LL go over well with the 'common folk" he says he speaks for!

[Link: www.michaelmoore.com...]

somebody send him a copy of the Simpsons "monorail" episode

411 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:58:52pm

re: #273 Cato the Elder

Not sure what to make of this from the "libertarian" Reason.com.

"Why Is Killing Abortionists Wrong?"

Irony? Stirring the shit? Or are they serious?

What is their conclusion?

412 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:59:14pm

re: #408 callahan23

No doubt.
But there again. What the f*ck is the attraction to a religion that says to submit particularly for a prison inmate? They should yell at every muslim 'converter' (?) "WTF I am never submitting to anybody, I am independent".
It goes to show how moronic lots of those inmates truly are.

Yeah. But after reading some more I'll have to say "we'll see." He is a convert but how that arrived is TBD.

413 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:59:15pm

re: #402 1SG(ret)

Can we somehow now state that some left leaning politicians (Murtha/Kerry) are inciting violence against our military with the rhetoric they spew? Does this make the shooting a left-wing issue?
I would say "no" to both questions, but the argument could be made?

it has played a roll over the years no question about it...when you examine each incident, they are both pretty despicable, and of course people are watching and listening....extremely irresponsible if in fact criminal....Murtha been sued

414 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:59:53pm

re: #395 SanFranciscoZionist

I think your interpretation is correct. Clearly, this wouldn't support, say, the legislation that's been proposed (passed?) in some places where the murder of a pregnant woman is considered a double homicide.

Well, since the vast majority of pregnant women don't have an abortion, I would guess that the murder of a pregnant woman generally presumes that she intended to have the baby. Though in a case such as that of Stacey Peterson (Scott Peterson's pregnant wife whom he murdered), the baby was near enough to birth (a name had been picked, even!) that it can be argued pretty rationally that it was a double homicide.

415 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:59:59pm

re: #399 Gus 802

He's named same as the Taliban envoy to the UN when they still ruled afghanistan:

[Link: www.bing.com...]

416 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:00:06pm

re: #408 callahan23

No doubt.
But there again. What the f*ck is the attraction to a religion that says to submit particularly for a prison inmate? They should yell at every muslim 'converter' (?) "WTF I am never submitting to anybody, I am independent".
It goes to show how moronic lots of those inmates truly are.

I doubt many are wanted by NASA's skunk works. ;)

417 Kragar  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:00:27pm

re: #357 Eowyn2

Did you really expect it to be good?
Well plotted?
Well developed characters?
C'mon Krag, you gotta be kidding.
Its all about the graphics.

I was kind of hoping they would toy with the idea of a plot or characters.

418 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:00:55pm

re: #415 Thanos

He's named same as the Taliban envoy to the UN when they still ruled afghanistan:

[Link: www.bing.com...]

good grief...went from wannabe to the bigtime

419 KingKenrod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:00:56pm

re: #405 Capitalist Tool

DING DING DING
You get a Gold Star.

The unwarranted rise of the the cost of energy is the underlying reason behind all of the world's economic problems, not the lame reasoning that the Bank of Bullshitia loaned Bubba too much money on his new McMansion.

No one in officialdom speaks of that however, because it doesn't fit the plan.

The plan is to tax the very air you breathe and to decide who is worthy to breathe it.

I don't know what fantasy land Democrats live in where they can raise the cost of energy across the board and still expect economic growth. It's not going to happen.

420 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:01:06pm

re: #379 sattv4u2

How many of those has there been? Dozens? Or maybe 60-70 over the last 7 years?

There have been 4 ,,, exactly 4 abortion doctors killed in the USA. Each and every one a tragedy. Each and every one by a deranged fanatic. But the number is 4

Per info posted by Charles at the last thread on this, 5 doctors, 2 clinic employees, a security guard and a clinic escort.

421 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:01:12pm

re: #415 Thanos

He's named same as the Taliban envoy to the UN when they still ruled afghanistan:

[Link: www.bing.com...]

Strange. Looks like we have another crackpot on our hands.

422 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:01:34pm

re: #413 albusteve
Still talking about Kerry?
That reminds me...
John! Why the long face?

423 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:01:42pm
424 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:01:51pm

re: #6 DaddyG

Murder is murder. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where God handed over the delivery of justice to unhinged radical vigilantes. The saddest part of all of this is the disservice this does to those who really care about the sanctity of life born and unborn.

I don't even recall any passage in the Bible condemning abortion.

425 Pianobuff  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:01:58pm

re: #399 Gus 802

Not sure how many there are with the name Abdul Hakim Mujahid Muhammad, but Google returns some wild stuff....

426 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:02:02pm

re: #417 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I was kind of hoping they would toy with the idea of a plot or characters.

I am willing to bet they just said, we have Bale, and ILM.
Screw the story.

427 avanti  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:02:14pm

re: #383 doubter4444

Sorry a bit of a rant ads this is something close to my experience.

See, the thing is, ABORTIONS ARE LEGAL.
(Sorry for the caps, I don't use them often, but in this case...)

A tragic tale that illustrate the real issue. I've read others, the mother who found out her fetus would be born with just a brain stem, or another with a brain outside the skull. It is not a black and white issue, nor a easy one to deal with. I for one, don't know what would be pro life about bringing a baby to term only to suffer in pain for days with no hope of survival.
I think a compromise we could reach is strict standards on late term abortions, but in Kansas, it already took two doctors to agree that it is necessity, but I'd welcome ideas from the pro lifers on how to deal with the most tragic cases.

428 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:02:14pm

re: #391 AMER1CAN

I don't know of anyone who thinks late term abortions are okay (unless under extreme circumstances), and I certainly don't know of anyone who has gone through the process of making a baby, going through a pregnancy, and then watching that baby born, I know of no such people who are okay with a drive through for late term abortions.

If you had sex and don't want to get pregnant take the morning after pill. If you are indeed pregnant and decide you can't bare to bring life into this world, then go get an abortion.

But do not carry that baby for multiple months, do not give that baby a heart beat and a brain and a central nervous system, do not give that baby life and then decide you do not want the baby and think it's okay to have it terminated mere weeks before a delivery date.

I'm sorry, that's wrong.

I agree. I also think that there are never any legitimate reasons for a partial birth abortion. The most specious argument in support of this is the ostensible health of the mother. If the health of the mother is truly at stake, I would think that a C-section would be the safest procedure to follow. The problem with the C-section of course, is that at the end of the procedure, there is a live baby to deal with.
Giving birth thru the birth canal and then killing the baby must be more dangerous and thus cannot be an argument for preserving the mother's health.
I understand early, frist trimester abortions. I do not understand late term abortions and the arguments for it are deceitful and wrong.

429 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:02:18pm

re: #422 Capitalist Tool

Still talking about Kerry?
That reminds me...
John! Why the long face?

re: #422 Capitalist Tool

Still talking about Kerry?
That reminds me...
John! Why the long face?

haha!...1SG set it up tho

430 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:02:43pm

re: #422 Capitalist Tool

Still talking about Kerry?
That reminds me...
John! Why the long face?

Wilberrrrr. ;)

431 itellu3times  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:03:02pm

How many of these nutbars are we talking about, subscribing to these newsletters - hundreds, thousands? dozens?

Of course it's a big country, and even a million people is 1/3 of 1%.

But I sure hope it's a lot smaller than a million.

My guess would be well under 100k, my hope is under 10k, but I guess not so much lower, cuz it is a big country.

432 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:03:03pm

re: #415 Thanos

He's named same as the Taliban envoy to the UN when they still ruled afghanistan:

[Link: www.bing.com...]

Oh, my. That's interesting!

433 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:03:05pm

re: #391 AMER1CAN

I don't know of anyone who thinks late term abortions are okay (unless under extreme circumstances), and I certainly don't know of anyone who has gone through the process of making a baby, going through a pregnancy, and then watching that baby born, I know of no such people who are okay with a drive through for late term abortions.

If you had sex and don't want to get pregnant take the morning after pill. If you are indeed pregnant and decide you can't bare to bring life into this world, then go get an abortion.

But do not carry that baby for multiple months, do not give that baby a heart beat and a brain and a central nervous system, do not give that baby life and then decide you do not want the baby and think it's okay to have it terminated mere weeks before a delivery date.

I'm sorry, that's wrong.

What are the actual statistics of actual elective abortions in late pregnancy?

434 Kragar  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:03:32pm

re: #426 DEZes

I am willing to bet they just said, we have Bale, and ILM.
Screw the story.

Plot hole dead ahead sir!

We'll cover it up with CGI.

435 nikis-knight  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:03:36pm

re: #104 Last Mohican

That was the other way to interpret your comment. I reversed my previous down-ding.

I'm sure there are some people whose position is "Tiller deserved to be killed, but people shouldn't take the law into their own hands." I hope there aren't any of those people here.


Well, presumably if abortion were made illegal the punishment would dissuade some people from going into the field. I'd much rather that than have the law exact punishment, but I'll be honest and take my dings--I grieve for the violation of the rule of law much more than for the man's loss of life.

436 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:03:48pm

re: #399 Gus 802

USA Today picked it up:

Recruiter shot dead outside Army office

By William M. Welch, USA TODAY

437 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:03:48pm
438 jvic  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:03:49pm

Speaking of poster boys, here's Bill Donohue of the Catholic League. There is a lot to deconstruct in the press release. I'll only make two points.

1. The press release begins with:

The Catholic League unequivocally condemns the killing of serial killer, Dr. George Tiller. As I said on the CBS Evening News, “We have to get the message out that life means we have to respect all life, including somebody as bad as Dr. Tiller was.”

The rest of the four-paragraph release attacks Donohue's political opponents.

2. Donohue does not call the killing a murder. Here is the only usage of the word in the press release:

Others are busy collectivizing the guilt. Kim Gandy, president of the National Organization for Women, refers to “those who are behind this murder,” suggesting that this is part of a pro-life cabal.
439 justdanny  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:03:52pm

I like monkeys. Apes. Whatever. Primates are cool.

440 VioletTiger  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:04:00pm

re: #419 KingKenrod

I don't know what fantasy land Democrats live in where they can raise the cost of energy across the board and still expect economic growth. It's not going to happen.

The plan is to raise the cost of some energy sources so that the 'green' sources can compete. Not good news.

441 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:04:15pm

re: #409 doppelganglander

Apparently the scenario you describe almost never happens. From what I've read elsewhere, the majority of terminations Tiller performed were in cases where the baby would not survive at all, or only for a very limited and painful period. Many others were not what I'd call abortions at all; they were procedures to remove a fetus that had died in utero.

I didn't know any of this, and I'll bet most people didn't. Maybe if the media had provided a clearer picture of what Tiller was really doing, the level of fanaticism would have been lower. Instead, we get extreme rhetoric from both sides.

His murder was deplorable but I have questions regarding your use of "procedures to remove a fetus that had died in utero" How did the fetus (Latin for 'small child') die?
Women do not need to see an outspoken proponent for abortion to have a mass of already dead tissue removed.

Dr Tiller was very outspoken on the late term abortion issue in Kansas and made national news on more than one occasion. He kept his name in the spotlight.

442 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:04:18pm

re: #425 Pianobuff

Yep, see re: #415

443 albusteve  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:04:19pm

re: #432 Dianna

Oh, my. That's interesting!

I just hope he's a rookie jihadi with no prior in that regard

444 DEZes  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:04:31pm

re: #434 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Plot hole dead ahead sir!

We'll cover it up with CGI.

That and the director has what under his belt?
Oh yeah, nuttin.

445 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:04:39pm

re: #421 Gus 802

Strange. Looks like we have another crackpot on our hands.

Could be just coincidence, there are limited choices in muslim names, you see several of the same names all the time, file it for future reference if needed, still digging.

446 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:05:29pm

re: #414 Dianna

Well, since the vast majority of pregnant women don't have an abortion, I would guess that the murder of a pregnant woman generally presumes that she intended to have the baby. Though in a case such as that of Stacey Peterson (Scott Peterson's pregnant wife whom he murdered), the baby was near enough to birth (a name had been picked, even!) that it can be argued pretty rationally that it was a double homicide.

Except that the passage we're examining doesn't suggest that an accidental killing of a fetus is considered manslaughter.

447 AMER1CAN  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:05:45pm

re: #409 doppelganglander

Apparently the scenario you describe almost never happens. From what I've read elsewhere, the majority of terminations Tiller performed were in cases where the baby would not survive at all, or only for a very limited and painful period. Many others were not what I'd call abortions at all; they were procedures to remove a fetus that had died in utero.

I didn't know any of this, and I'll bet most people didn't. Maybe if the media had provided a clearer picture of what Tiller was really doing, the level of fanaticism would have been lower. Instead, we get extreme rhetoric from both sides.

Almost never happens implies it does indeed happen though. Mr. Tiller may be a wonderful person. I do not know and frankly could care less. I simply was illustrating my position on abortion. If Tiller was performing late term abortions in any other manner then under extreme medical circumstanes then his medical license should have been yanked.

448 callahan23  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:06:06pm

re: #416 DEZes

I doubt many are wanted by NASA's skunk works. ;)

Was it their IQ's or their poor backgrounds that brought them into prison?
I am wondering. ;-)
/

449 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:06:29pm

re: #437 Iron Fist

It is indeed. As long as we are afraid to even name or describe our enemy (as the police and media were unwilling to describe or name John Muhammad), we are never going to be able to effectively counter them. I'm sure we all suspected the same thing once we saw the perpetrator was black. He wasn't some black gangbanger settling an old score against someone that just happened to be in the military (was that reaching or what?).

And we knew it. We couldn't help but know it, because that same elephant has been sitting in our front room for going on nine years.

Right. That also crossed my mind after the arrests in NYC for the foiled plot to bomb the NY synagogue and AF aircraft. Happened several weeks ago -- I don't have the exact reference now.

450 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:06:29pm

re: #408 callahan23

No doubt.
But there again. What the f*ck is the attraction to a religion that says to submit particularly for a prison inmate? They should yell at every muslim 'converter' (?) "WTF I am never submitting to anybody, I am independent".
It goes to show how moronic lots of those inmates truly are.

Islam promises to make a man a master over his household, women in general, and all of Dar al-Harb, if the jihad succeeds. It must be very appealing for a man who feels powerless, especially a black man who feels marginalized by society, unnecessary in a female-headed household, and resentful of his position in the world.

451 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:07:01pm

Dave Leach, anti-abortion activist, Des Moines:
“There is Christian scripture that would support this."

What else can you find proof-text support for, Mr. Leach?
If you were paid enough, would you have a go at NAMBLA or cannibalism?

/extreme sarc off

452 avanti  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:07:24pm

re: #397 Russkilitlover

Just curious....how do you "save" a fetus "aborted" at 30 weeks? Isn't that the late term procedure of sucking their brains out through their collapsed skulls? Kinda hard top CPR that one.

That was not the discussion, It's claimed by the extreme pro choicer's that "babies" are being born alive and left to die in special rooms.
The procedure you mentioned is one reason it can be banned or regulated by the states for only extreme cases.

453 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:07:42pm

re: #428 LGoPs

I agree. I also think that there are never any legitimate reasons for a partial birth abortion. The most specious argument in support of this is the ostensible health of the mother. If the health of the mother is truly at stake, I would think that a C-section would be the safest procedure to follow. The problem with the C-section of course, is that at the end of the procedure, there is a live baby to deal with.
Giving birth thru the birth canal and then killing the baby must be more dangerous and thus cannot be an argument for preserving the mother's health.
I understand early, frist trimester abortions. I do not understand late term abortions and the arguments for it are deceitful and wrong.

Why do you think it is done then? You really think doctors and pregnant women are doing this for fun?

454 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:07:44pm

re: #391 AMER1CAN

.......................................

But do not carry that baby for multiple months, do not give that baby a heart beat and a brain and a central nervous system, do not give that baby life and then decide you do not want the baby and think it's okay to have it terminated mere weeks before a delivery date.

I'm sorry, that's wrong.

Did Terry Randall tell you that is the situation in all late term abortions, or are you just fantasizing?

455 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:07:46pm

re: #449 Gus 802

A plot to fire a hand held missile at AF aircraft that is.

456 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:08:02pm

I mentioned Andrew Sullivan as a... "poster boy" for the Left's double standard as illustrated by his collectively demonizing "Christianists" prior to Scott Roeder's arrest.

My complaint against the leak of the DHS report was that it's contents reflected a clearly deliberate effort to demonize any who might dissent from the administration, and members of the US military, by commingling them with the more classic militia nutjob type like a Scott Roeder.

The fact that a Scott Roeder type nutjob committed this crime in no way excuses, or legitimizes, the DHS report's carefully crafted smears.

Now we don't know who gunned down our servicemen. But where are the examples of "Rightwing" sites demonizing the lefties?

Further, contrast the fact that Scott Roeder was condemned by those he sought to associate with while many Jihadist sites have been exposed right here at LGF as attempting to develop little Scott Roeder style "Sudden Jihadists".

457 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:08:27pm

re: #409 doppelganglander

Apparently the scenario you describe almost never happens. From what I've read elsewhere, the majority of terminations Tiller performed were in cases where the baby would not survive at all, or only for a very limited and painful period. Many others were not what I'd call abortions at all; they were procedures to remove a fetus that had died in utero.

I didn't know any of this, and I'll bet most people didn't. Maybe if the media had provided a clearer picture of what Tiller was really doing, the level of fanaticism would have been lower. Instead, we get extreme rhetoric from both sides.

My problem with that is the numbers. From things i've read Tiller performed about a 100 a week. Kansas isn't New York. I can't envison that many "bad' pregnancies in such a relatively small geographic area per week for YEARS

458 lobo91  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:08:31pm

re: #419 KingKenrod

I don't know what fantasy land Democrats live in where they can raise the cost of energy across the board and still expect economic growth. It's not going to happen.

Why do you think they expect (or even want) economic growth?

459 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:08:57pm

Is this terrorism? Hell yes it is. How many doctors are going home tonight looking over their shoulder? There is your answer.

Based on the amazing reactions cited here, and well beyond, justifying this horror, I fear copycat killings. In fact I will be quite surprised if there are none. The righty loons want blood, yes they do.

460 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:09:20pm
461 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:09:28pm

re: #453 SanFranciscoZionist

Why do you think it is done then? You really think doctors and pregnant women are doing this for fun?

He probably thinks the doctors are doing it for money, and the mother for fun.//

462 Hawaii69  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:09:32pm

re: #323 Thanos

No, because we have a lot more on Roeder, and zero information on the guy who shot the soldier.

We now have enough for people to make plenty of
about his motivation:

Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad -- a 24-year-old Little Rock resident formerly known as Carlos Bledsoe -- faces a first-degree murder charge and 15 counts of engaging in a terrorist act, Little Rock Police Chief Stuart Thomas said. The terrorist counts stem from the shots fired at an occupied building.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

463 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:09:40pm

re: #327 sattv4u2

OT ,,,,The genius Michael Moore weighs in(hehehehehe) on the GM bankruptcy
one amazing conclusion


Don't put another $30 billion into the coffers of GM to build cars. Instead, use that money to keep the current workforce -- and most of those who have been laid off -- employed

There ya go ,, don't build any more PRODUCT to sell,, just, like, you know , PAY people!

[Link: www.michaelmoore.com...]

We sure don't want any productivity.

464 rightymouse  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:09:51pm

re: #402 1SG(ret)

Can we somehow now state that some left leaning politicians (Murtha/Kerry) are inciting violence against our military with the rhetoric they spew? Does this make the shooting a left-wing issue?
I would say "no" to both questions, but the argument could be made?


Nope. The individual is still accountable, regardless. I don't blame all Muslims for what this perp did.

One of the analogies that crossed my mind today was of the stalker blogs, especially LGF2. Is it Charles' fault or anyone else here that Savage or Rodan are off their rockers and obsessed beyond comprehension? Of course not. They are this way because there is something WRONG with them.

465 AMER1CAN  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:10:01pm

re: #454 Naso Tang

Did Terry Randall tell you that is the situation in all late term abortions, or are you just fantasizing?

I'm not sure who you speak of but I came to the conclusion that late term abortions are wrong (except under extreme circumstances) all by myself. Thanks!

466 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:10:13pm

re: #379 sattv4u2

"those", I was referencing are the "Sudden Jihadists" hence the reference to the last 7 years since 9/11.

And given the media outrage and volume I am shocked that the number is only 4... which seems to support my point about the MainStreamMedia narrative.

467 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:10:13pm

Muhammed is the Shia and Urdu spelling .... most other places they spell it Mohammed....

468 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:10:47pm

re: #428 LGoPs

I do not understand late term abortions and the arguments for it are deceitful and wrong.

Here's one person's story:

In 1994 my wife and I found out that she was pregnant. The pregnancy was difficult and unusually uncomfortable but her doctor repeatedly told her things were fine. Sometime early in the 8th month my wife, an RN who at the time was working in an infertility clinic asked the Dr. she was working for what he thought of her discomfort. He examined her and said that he couldn’t be certain but thought that she might be having twins. We were thrilled and couldn’t wait to get a new sonogram that hopefully would confirm his thoughts. Two days later our joy was turned to unspeakable sadness when the new sonogram showed conjoined twins. Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants. We were advised that our options were to deliver into the world a child who’s life would be filled with horrible pain and suffering or fly out to Wichita Kansas and to terminate the pregnancy under the direction of Dr. George Tiller.

We made an informed decision to go to Kansas. One can only imagine the pain borne by a woman who happily carries a child for 8 months only to find out near the end of term that the children were not to be and that she had to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy and go against everything she had been taught to believe was right. This was what my wife had to do. Dr. Tiller is a true American hero. The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff. Dr. Tiller understood that this decision was the most difficult thing that a woman could ever decide and he took the time to educate us and guide us along with the other two couples who at the time were being forced to make the same decision after discovering that they too were carrying children impacted by horrible fetal anomalies. I could describe in great detail the procedures and the pain and suffering that everyone is subjected to in these situations. However, that is not the point of the post. We can all imagine that this is not something that we would wish on anyone. The point is that the pain and suffering were only mitigated by the compassion and competence of Dr. George Tiller and his staff. We are all diminished today for a host of reasons but most of all because a man of great compassion and courage has been lost to the world.

Are you willing to pass judgment on her?

469 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:11:10pm

re: #441 Eowyn2

I can actually speak to that one question, because a woman I knew slightly suffered it.

Because the baby - her word choice - had died in the womb, but the placenta was still healthy (I'm not clear on the exact issues involved), the dead baby had to be removed by what amounted to a late-term abortion. It was fairly awful, but everyone was in agreement that the quicker this was done, the less awful, and the less dangerous the consequences.

470 avanti  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:11:14pm

re: #433 SanFranciscoZionist

What are the actual statistics of actual elective abortions in late pregnancy?

1.4% after week 20, about 1000/year.

471 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:12:01pm

re: #453 SanFranciscoZionist

Why do you think it is done then? You really think doctors and pregnant women are doing this for fun?

I think they are doing it because the woman wants to terminate the pregnancy. I just do not believe that health is the reason and if it were then a C-section would be the appropriate procedure.

472 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:12:35pm

re: #456 DANEgerus

Bullshit, Demonization is when you paint an individual person as non human and evil, such as Randall Terry did with Dr. Tiller. Demagogues do it.

The DHS report was generic.

473 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:13:04pm

"The owner of “Prayer and Action News” says that Roeder didn’t commit a crime, and that his actions were supported by Christian scripture."

"Real" Christians have no problem loudly denouncing Roeder's actions. What he has done has absolutely NOTHING to do with Christianity.

474 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:13:05pm

re: #446 SanFranciscoZionist

Except that the passage we're examining doesn't suggest that an accidental killing of a fetus is considered manslaughter.

Well, murder does change the scenario, a bit, wouldn't you think?

475 avanti  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:13:52pm

re: #465 AMER1CAN

I'm not sure who you speak of but I came to the conclusion that late term abortions are wrong (except under extreme circumstances) all by myself. Thanks!

Then I agree with you and the extreme circumstances. Thus, Tiller had to have another doctor agree. When he was taken to court by a pro lifer, he was found to have followed that rule.

476 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:14:13pm
477 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:14:47pm

re: #399 Gus 802

OK, so now we know, another "Sudden Jihad" syndrome "deranged individual" with "no ties to the ROP".

But again... what is the narrative and isn't it so well illustrated here?

478 AMER1CAN  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:15:01pm

re: #468 Charles

This falls under "special circumstances" for sure and I would never pass judgment on her for her decision. It's for reasons like this that a procedure (abortion) must be performed.

479 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:15:05pm

re: #475 avanti

Then I agree with you and the extreme circumstances. Thus, Tiller had to have another doctor agree. When he was taken to court by a pro lifer, he was found to have followed that rule.

He was found to have followed that rule by a jury -- not just a judge either.

480 callahan23  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:15:25pm

re: #450 doppelganglander

Islam promises to make a man a master over his household, women in general, and all of Dar al-Harb, if the jihad succeeds. It must be very appealing for a man who feels powerless, especially a black man who feels marginalized by society, unnecessary in a female-headed household, and resentful of his position in the world.

Spot on your assesment, thanks.
So it is here like there a bunch of p*ssies. That don't have the guts to admit that their mother did a splendid job in raising them.
Ungrateful MF's, the lot of 'em.

481 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:15:27pm

re: #441 Eowyn2

His murder was deplorable but I have questions regarding your use of "procedures to remove a fetus that had died in utero" How did the fetus (Latin for 'small child') die?
Women do not need to see an outspoken proponent for abortion to have a mass of already dead tissue removed.

Dr Tiller was very outspoken on the late term abortion issue in Kansas and made national news on more than one occasion. He kept his name in the spotlight.

Some fetuses (or babies, if you prefer) just die. It's not uncommon for a woman to suspect nothing, only to find out at a routine appointment that the doctor can't detect a heartbeat. I am not an ob/gyn, but I can imagine it's not a simple procedure and it might be reasonable to seek out a specialist. I wish I had the link handy, but I learned this from a link posted here yesterday to an article that quoted some of his former patients.

Tiller was an attention whore, no doubt about it. But as I've learned more about his practice, I've discovered that at least some of what he did was actually a valuable and compassionate service to his patients.

482 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:15:39pm
483 callahan23  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:18:32pm

re: #460 Iron Fist

... And there are thousands just like him in prisons across the United States. What do you do about that?
I really don't know.

I also have no clue, answers or remedies. Sorry.
Thanks for the info.

484 AMER1CAN  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:19:46pm

re: #478 AMER1CAN

This falls under "special circumstances" for sure and I would never pass judgment on her for her decision. It's for reasons like this that a procedure (abortion) must be performed.

The first thing that jumped out at me was not that she was seeking to have an abortion, it was that she could be 8 months pregnant and not know that she has twins and that they are conjoined. That is shocking and tilts towards incompetent doctors in my opinion. You have been carrying around conjoined twins and don't notice till 8 months? It says the women was complaining of discomfort. Why didn't she go to the doctor earlier? If so, why didn't the doctors do a ultrasound sooner? 8 months? Good heavens.

485 nikis-knight  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:19:47pm

re: #468 Charles

Are you willing to pass judgment on her?

No, but I wouldn't use that as an excuse to make the procedure widely availible. I want abortion, especially at that stage, to be undertaken with just as much scutiny as an execution.

486 Randall Gross  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:19:51pm

For the record, Roeder still isn't charged unless it was recent, the Jihadi already has charges:

Muhammad faces one capital murder charge, and 15 counts of terroristic acts.

487 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:20:20pm

re: #465 AMER1CAN

I'm not sure who you speak of but I came to the conclusion that late term abortions are wrong (except under extreme circumstances) all by myself. Thanks!

Of course I was speaking of you, given the "afterthought" comment about extreme circumstances followed by an implication that those are also extreme exceptions and that many women, and doctors, will simply kill a late term fetus for trivial reasons of convenience.

Back up your statements if you want to sound like Terry Randall.

488 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:20:57pm

re: #485 nikis-knight

No, but I wouldn't use that as an excuse to make the procedure widely availible. I want abortion, especially at that stage, to be undertaken with just as much scutiny as an execution.

The procedure is NOT widely available, and there are stringent rules regarding when and how it should be performed.

489 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:21:12pm

re: #424 medaura18586

I don't even recall any passage in the Bible condemning abortion.

?

No... I don't think any surgery is mentioned in the bible. Neither does it mention Meth, internet affairs or drunk driving but I can find a few verses on taking innocent life if you're actually curious.

490 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:24:04pm

re: #485 nikis-knight

No, but I wouldn't use that as an excuse to make the procedure widely availible. I want abortion, especially at that stage, to be undertaken with just as much scutiny as an execution.

Just what the fuck do you think you mean by "widely available"? You want a lottery perhaps?

Lets hear your evidence for lack of scrutiny.

491 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:25:30pm

re: #480 callahan23

Spot on your assesment, thanks.
So it is here like there a bunch of p*ssies. That don't have the guts to admit that their mother did a splendid job in raising them.
Ungrateful MF's, the lot of 'em.

I'd guess for this particular group, their mothers did not do a splendid job in raising them. Some single moms are heroes, and some are whores. I've got a friend (who is white, incidentally) whose mother was literally a crack whore. Thankfully, his dad stepped in and raised him well, but he's still got a lot of issues with women. If he'd been a different personality type, it could have turned out very badly for him.

492 FamHistoryGuy  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:25:33pm

re: #91 ihateronpaul

Oct 2008? During an election and an interview with a hostile media.

I know, I know, late to the article.

493 1SG(ret)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:25:52pm

re: #459 The Shadow Do

Could we substitute Military for Doctors and lefty for righty and make your comment just as relevant.

There may be those condoning the murder of the doctor at other sites, but I haven't seen it here. There may be disagreement on the cause, but no one I see here condoning it. I'm sure Charles would clear out those that would.

494 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:26:29pm

re: #488 Charles

That's what I thought. There are strict guidelines the woman has to meet. This procedure isn't 'widely' available, IIRC.

495 JacksonTn  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:27:19pm

re: #494 pingjockey

That's what I thought. There are strict guidelines the woman has to meet. This procedure isn't 'widely' available, IIRC.

PJ ... at how many weeks are you talking about? ...

496 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:28:46pm

re: #484 AMER1CAN

The first thing that jumped out at me was not that she was seeking to have an abortion, it was that she could be 8 months pregnant and not know that she has twins and that they are conjoined. That is shocking and tilts towards incompetent doctors in my opinion. You have been carrying around conjoined twins and don't notice till 8 months? It says the women was complaining of discomfort. Why didn't she go to the doctor earlier? If so, why didn't the doctors do a ultrasound sooner? 8 months? Good heavens.

Good Heavens!

You do realize that you said nothing relevant to the actual circumstance, except sue the doctors and perhaps prosecute the mother, don't you?

497 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:29:11pm

re: #65 Gus 802

Anyone see this yet?

Family shares accused killer's history

BY JAMES CARLSON
Created June 1, 2009 at 6:38am
Updated June 1, 2009 at 12:27pm

More at the link.

-----------------------------------------------

I followed your link and read that part at the end where the murderer's father, John Roeder, was commenting on his son during the '97 explosives case.

It was during that case that John Roeder incredulously expressed the sentiments of the rest of his family.

"Scott would not kill a fly," he said at the time. "He won’t step on a worm. So how could he possibly, unless he was being used by somebody, be planning anything that would take human life?"

Doesn't it remind you of Norman Bates in Psycho, speaking as his mother, when he was in custody?

I'll just sit here and be quiet, just in case they do... suspect me. They're probably watching me. Well, let them. Let them see what kind of a person I am. I'm not even going to swat that fly. I hope they are watching... they'll see. They'll see and they'll know, and they'll say, "Why, she wouldn't even harm a fly..."

498 Baelzar  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:30:34pm

Perhaps this will force Republicans to back off from the abortion issue, and they can concentrate on the winning message of lower spending, smaller government?

499 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:30:46pm

re: #495 JacksonTn
This doc that was shot was doing stuff late, like 3rd trimester, IIRC, and I probably don't. I don't like abortion, I'm not going to be a ass though. Sometimes it is necessary. Killing a doctor who does these procedures then glorifying his killer as some have done is a sure and certain way for me to tune out the prolife message.

500 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:32:45pm

I think AMER1CAN has just turned into a dingaling without words.

The handle pisses me off too. Pompous as hell, since I consider myself one, and by the way, what does Christ need armies for?

501 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:33:00pm

re: #490 Naso Tang

Just what the fuck do you think you mean by "widely available"? You want a lottery perhaps?

Lets hear your evidence for lack of scrutiny.


Not only is it not widely available, but very few women, if any, would choose to undergo a late-term abortion for frivolous reasons. Those who don't want to carry the pregnancy to term for family-planning purposes get abortions as soon as possible, as early as one month after gestation, when the embryo is the size of a q-tip end, if that. It doesn't make sense from the woman's perspective either, to carry an embryo, take care of it, grow it into a fetus, a viable one, and then decide she doesn't want a baby. The only possible motivation I can think of for such irrational behavior is either mental health issues or emotional instability possibly connected to breaking up with the fetus's father -- anger stemming from infidelity or whatnot (I've heard of such a case second-hand; a boss at one of my internship jobs about three years ago had impregnated his girlfriend and then cheated on her and they broke up, at which point she decided to have an abortion).

Statistically speaking though, if a woman seeks a late-term abortion, odds are she has very and painful reasons behind her request.

502 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:33:05pm

re: #468 Charles

Are you willing to pass judgment on her?

Given those circumstances, of course not. But my point was that health of the mother is not, IMO, a reason for performing partial birth abortions as a ceasarean would seem to be a safer procedure in regards to that health. The story you cite is heart wrenching and heaven forbid I be in the position to have to make that decision but the decision was based on the health of the babies.

503 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:34:16pm

re: #501 medaura18586

pimf: Statistically speaking though, if a woman seeks a late-term abortion, odds are she has very good and painful reasons behind her request.

504 JacksonTn  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:34:38pm

re: #499 pingjockey

This doc that was shot was doing stuff late, like 3rd trimester, IIRC, and I probably don't. I don't like abortion, I'm not going to be a ass though. Sometimes it is necessary. Killing a doctor who does these procedures then glorifying his killer as some have done is a sure and certain way for me to tune out the prolife message.

PJ ... I do not get into discussions about abortion because it is just the most dividing issue in this country ... but I will say that I don't think it is all that hard to get one of the late term abortions ... it just depends on how much money you have and who you know ... the daughter of a friend of mine had an abortion 2 years ago ... she was almost six months pregnant ... it was a two day procedure ... he was very upset but it was her decision and she is of age ... it was in Tennessee ... all she did was call up the clinic and two days later she was there ... so I am not agreeing that it is hard to get these abortions but I am not sure what is considered a late term abortion ...

505 pink freud  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:36:11pm

re: #503 medaura18586

pimf: Statistically speaking though, if a woman seeks a late-term abortion, odds are she has very good and painful reasons behind her request.

I'd like to have a look at those statistics. Link?

506 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:36:23pm

re: #39 OldLineTexan

The Old Testament would be a bad choice; actually some very clear punishments for harming a child in the womb, although probably not aimed at purposeful abortions.

None were death, IIRC.

None were death. Also, none involved the intentional abortion or other harm for the child in the womb, something that would have been completely unthinkable to those people. The examples given involved such injury and/or death caused by the woman getting to close to a fight in progress and being inadvertently struck because of her unfortunate proximity to the fight. The penalties given, in those cases, were not dissimilar to the penalties for the completely accidental and unpremeditated killing of an adult.

re: #486 Thanos

For the record, Roeder still isn't charged unless it was recent, the Jihadi already has charges:

Muhammad faces one capital murder charge, and 15 counts of terroristic acts.

And Roeder should rightly face quite similar charges. As for charges not laid out, yet, I suspect that it is more due to wanting to gather as much evidence as possible and hit him with as many charges as they can than due to anything else.

507 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:37:10pm

re: #504 JacksonTn
That makes two of us. I don't know what constitutes a late term abortion.
As far as the ease of getting such a procedure, I have no damn idea.

508 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:39:32pm

There was a movie in the early 60's called The Cardinal in which the Cardinal. played by Tom Tryon, had to decide (and did) to let his sister die rather than receive the abortion which would have saved her life...
quite profound for it's time.

509 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:40:47pm

re: #489 Spenser (with an S)

?

No... I don't think any surgery is mentioned in the bible. Neither does it mention Meth, internet affairs or drunk driving but I can find a few verses on taking innocent life if you're actually curious.

Meth, internet affairs, and drunk driving obviously were not known in Biblical times. Abortion is as old as humanity, and was definitely performed in those days in Semitic cultures. Yet Biblical scriptures do not condemn the practice. If anything, the embryo/fetus, in the only explicit legalistic reference to it in the Bible, is treated as nothing but property, of the pregnant woman's husband:

"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Exodus 21:22-25

[Link: www.elroy.net...]

So obviously the unborn is not eligible for "life for life" treatment. It's not even considered a human life.

What's that you were going to show me again?

510 zelnaga  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:42:14pm

re: #47 Racer X

None.

Abortion is legal.

I'm not very familiar with abortion laws. There was Roe vs. Wade which established the notion of trimesters and found that, iirc, abortions performed in the first trimester were ok but later ones might not be.

Of course, maybe for anything later than the first trimester, it varies from state to state.

Regardless, if you don't agree with the law, the solution isn't to kill those that are violating your own personal code of ethics - it's to get the law changed. Consider Proposition 8 as an example. As bad a law as some may think it is, I think everyone can agree that the time that people people spent campaigning for that law was better spent as it was than it would have been by killing gay people.

511 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:43:24pm

re: #509 medaura18586

Not that I give a rat's ass on what the Bible has to say about anything. It should have no bearing on our legal system as this country's founding principles had nothing to do with Judeo-Christianity. But it would be nice for the anti-abortion religious fanatics to at least be a bit consistent and take their scriptures seriously, if they're what's motivating their extremist behavior and rhetoric.

512 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:43:35pm

My problem with the DHS write-up on 'Rght-Wing Extremists' isn't that there aren't legitimate threats to individuals and the government that meet the description. My problem is that the descriptions is so broad and vague that it fits literally EVERYONE that isn't completely on board with the current administration on every detail.

I cannot strongly enough express how much I condemn Roeder's actions. However, I am also an anti-abortion, 2nd Amendment supporting, pro-troop and pro-veteran, anti-big-government American, among other things. Therefore, by the DHS paper, I am equally as great a threat as Roeder...possibly more-so, since now he has been arrested.

513 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:44:53pm

re: #498 Baelzar

Perhaps this will force Republicans to back off from the abortion issue, and they can concentrate on the winning message of lower spending, smaller government?

I don't think that this idiot should curtail Republican's voices on the abortion issue. There is still a much needed call for moderation in abortions

514 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:49:32pm

re: #510 zelnaga

Regardless, if you don't agree with the law, the solution isn't to kill those that are violating your own personal code of ethics - it's to get the law changed. Consider Proposition 8 as an example. As bad a law as some may think it is, I think everyone can agree that the time that people people spent campaigning for that law was better spent as it was than it would have been by killing gay people.

Yeah, just great. Instead of leaving people who need abortions and their providers at the mercy of lone unhinged murderous zealots, let's twist the whole of the state apparatus against them, so every pregnant woman is legally coerced into carrying her unwanted pregnancy to term.

Tell White Power militias to stop fantasizing about lynching blacks and racial Holocaust... tell them to work toward abolishing the 14th amendment to the U.S. constitution instead. That way they could exact their plans peacefully... right?

Human rights should not be subject to mobocracy rule. And yes, those rights include control over one's sexuality and reproductive system, over one's own body and autonomy thereof.

/spit

515 Bloodnok  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:51:42pm

re: #512 JackofTrades

My problem with the DHS write-up on 'Rght-Wing Extremists' isn't that there aren't legitimate threats to individuals and the government that meet the description. My problem is that the descriptions is so broad and vague that it fits literally EVERYONE that isn't completely on board with the current administration on every detail.

I cannot strongly enough express how much I condemn Roeder's actions. However, I am also an anti-abortion, 2nd Amendment supporting, pro-troop and pro-veteran, anti-big-government American, among other things. Therefore, by the DHS paper, I am equally as great a threat as Roeder...possibly more-so, since now he has been arrested.

The left thought the same thing about George Bush and the Patriot Act. I'll bet you thought they were overreacting, huh?

516 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:53:04pm

re: #384 Thanos

Chill pill dog. My point is that there was speculation on Scott Roeder because it fit the narrative and that there isn't speculation on Carlos Bledsoe, Sudden Jihadist, because that also... does not fit the narrative.

517 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:57:41pm

re: #509

medaura18586

What's that you were going to show me again?

I knew you even before you were conceived. Jeremiah 1:4-5 I chose you when I planned creation. Ephesians 1:11-12 You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book. Psalm 139:15-16 I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live. Acts 17:26 You are fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:14 I knit you together in your mother's womb. Psalm 139:13 And brought you forth on the day you were born. Psalm 71:6 I knew you even before you were conceived.

518 zelnaga  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:57:55pm

re: #514 medaura18586

Yeah, just great. Instead of leaving people who need abortions and their providers at the mercy of lone unhinged murderous zealots, let's twist the whole of the state apparatus against them, so every pregnant woman is legally coerced into carrying her unwanted pregnancy to term.

Tell White Power militias to stop fantasizing about lynching blacks and racial Holocaust... tell them to work toward abolishing the 14th amendment to the U.S. constitution instead. That way they could exact their plans peacefully... right?


That you're working towards something doesn't mean you'll succeed. If you want to try to legalize lynching, I say feel free. You won't succeed, of course, but do feel free, all the same.

And if you do get a law passed, you'll only do so through compromise. ie. "How can I make the outlawing of abortion more palatable? Maybe I'll meet my opponent half way and allow first trimester abortions and ban abortions in trimesters after the second".

519 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:59:53pm
520 theheat  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:09:08pm
Scott Roeder wasn’t just a subscriber to pro-murder magazine “Prayer and Action News” — he was a contributor. And now they’re calling him a “hero.”

I doubt, ultimately, he'll be executed if found guilty. Instead, he can live in prison as a martyr, along with the others serving life terms for killing abortion doctors. As long as these people can quote and twist scripture to think they're doing God's work, nothing is going to change their mind.

It makes the world a scarier place for the rest of us... as if it wasn't already.

521 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:09:43pm

re: #518 zelnaga

That you're working towards something doesn't mean you'll succeed. If you want to try to legalize lynching, I say feel free. You won't succeed, of course, but do feel free, all the same.

And if you do get a law passed, you'll only do so through compromise. ie. "How can I make the outlawing of abortion more palatable? Maybe I'll meet my opponent half way and allow first trimester abortions and ban abortions in trimesters after the second".

You quoted the example of Proposition 8 as a successful example of suppressing personal rights, an example to be emulated. Just like it succeeded with gay marriage, it can with abortion rights, and with lynching. Are you encouraging anti-abortion-rights fanatics to engage in a legal battle to outlaw abortion, although you think such attempts would be futile? If so, why should they follow your advice?

So I should feel free to try legalizing lynching, right? You just think I won't succeed, as in, because the cultural climate would be too hostile to the mainstreaming of such a practice, right? But if it weren't, then anything goes, right? The will of the people, and whatnot... Is that what you're saying? Whatever I can convince the mobs to legally adopt, is fine by you?

522 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:10:38pm

re: #502 LGoPs

But my point was that health of the mother is not, IMO, a reason for performing partial birth abortions as a ceasarean would seem to be a safer procedure in regards to that health. The story you cite is heart wrenching and heaven forbid I be in the position to have to make that decision but the decision was based on the health of the babies.

So your position is that the life of the mother is insignificant, and you would take away a doctor's and mother's right to make decisions about the proper procedures when her life is in danger?

523 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:12:08pm

re: #517 Spenser (with an S)

I knew you even before you were conceived. Jeremiah 1:4-5 I chose you when I planned creation. Ephesians 1:11-12 You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book. Psalm 139:15-16 I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live. Acts 17:26 You are fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:14 I knit you together in your mother's womb. Psalm 139:13 And brought you forth on the day you were born. Psalm 71:6 I knew you even before you were conceived.

You didn't read the link I provided, did you? It preemptively blows those quotes right off the water...

[Link: elroy.net...]

This is most definitely the case when it comes to abortion. Ask most anti-abortion Christians to support their view, and they'll give you a couple of verses. One, quite obviously, is the Commandment against murder. But that begs the question of whether or not abortion is murder, which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term human person. To support their beliefs, these Christians point to one of three bible verses that refer to God working in the womb. The first is found in Psalms:

"For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for Thou art fearfully wonderful (later texts were changed to read "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made"); wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them."

Psalm 139:13-16

Although this passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation the fetus is indeed a person. According to Genesis, God was involved in the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every living thing a full human person. In other words, just because God was involved in its creation, it does not mean terminating it is the same as murder. It's only murder if a full human person is destroyed.

But even if we agreed to interpret these verses the same way that anti-abortion Christians do, we still have a hard time arguing that the Bible supports an anti-abortion point of view. If anything, as we will soon see, abortion is biblical.

Anytime we take one or two verses out of their context and quote them as doctrine, we place ourselves in jeopardy of being contradicted by other verses. Similarly, some verses that make perfect sense while standing alone take on a different feel when seen in the greater context in which they were written. And we can do some rather bizarre things to the Scriptures when we take disparate verses from the same context and use them as stand-alone doctrinal statements. Some prime examples of this come from the same book of the Bible as our last quote. Consider these verses that claim that God has abandoned us:

"Why dost Thou stand afar off, O Lord? Why dost Thou hide Thyself in times of trouble?"

Psalm 10:1

"How long, O Lord? Wilt Thou forget me forever? How long wilt Thou hide Thy face from me?"

Psalm 13:1

"O God, Thou hast rejected us. Thou hast broken us; Thou hast been angry; O, restore us.

Psalm 60:1

Not only can we use out-of-context verses to support that God doesn't care for us anymore, we can even use them to show how we can ask God to do horrible and vile things to people we consider our enemies. In this example, King David even wanted God to cause harm to the innocent children of his enemy:

[to be continued]

524 AMER1CAN  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:12:38pm

re: #500 Naso Tang

I think AMER1CAN has just turned into a dingaling without words.

The handle pisses me off too. Pompous as hell, since I consider myself one, and by the way, what does Christ need armies for?

You weren't exactly posting anything worth replying to. Now my name pisses you off? jeesh, and it's only Monday!

Back to your original comment to me, I honestly have no clue who Terry Randall is so I didn't at all understand your short comment towards my post. I was trying to outline my views best as I can. Sorry if the format didn't fit for you.

To answer your question, "What would christ need armies for?"... well, that kinda of answers it I think. What would he need armies for. I think we would agree.

525 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:12:47pm

re: #523 medaura18586

"Let his days be few; let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children wander about and beg; and let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes. Let the creditor seize all that he has; and let strangers plunder the product of his labor. Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him, nor any to be gracious to his fatherless children."

Psalm 109:8-12

Are we indeed to interpret that God, speaking through David in these Psalms, is saying we have been abandoned by God and that when wronged we can ask God to cause our enemies to die and cause our enemies' children to wander hungry and homeless? Indeed, it would seem the case.

But rather than interpret that God is with us as a fetus, but forgets us as adults, and yet will allow us to plead for the death of our enemies, we need to look at the greater context in which all these verses are found: songs.

Called Psalms, these are the songs of King David, a man of great faith who was also greatly tormented. He was a man of passions. He loved God, lusted for another man's wife, and murdered him to get her. He marveled at nature and at his own existence. All his great swings in emotion are recorded in the songs he wrote, and we can read them today in the Book of Psalms. What we cannot do is take one song, or one stanza of a song, and proclaim that it is indeed to be taken literally while taking other stanzas from David's songs and claim they should not be taken literally.

Yet that is exactly what anti-abortion Christians are asking us to do. They use those few verses from the Psalms to support their dogma that abortion is wrong. They proclaim those verses as holy writ and the other verses as poetry that we should not be following. Clearly, this is a perfect example of taking verses out of context. And it leads us to only one conclusion: if we cannot trust that God wants to kill our enemies and abandon us, we must also conclude that we cannot trust that God has defined the fetus as being a person.

For indeed, if we allow that kind of thinking we could also make an argument that God is willing to maul children to death if they make fun of a bald guy who just happens to be in God's favor. You think I'm joking, but I'm not. In the book of Second Kings, our hero, the Prophet Elisha, who was quite bald, so it seems, was taunted by a group of young boys. Elisha's response was bitter and cruel:

"...as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number."

2 Kings 2:22-24

Did God kill those forty-two kids for making fun of a bald prophet? We can certainly make an argument for that if we use the anti-abortionists' kind of thinking.

Likewise we can also use the anti-abortionists' methods to establish that God approves of pornography, as seen in these following verses by Solomon as he pondered the female body:

"How beautiful are your feet in sandals, O prince's daughter! The curves of your hips are like jewels, the work of the hands of an artist. Your navel is like a round goblet which never lacks for mixed wine; your belly is like a heap of wheat fenced about with lilies. Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle."

"Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I said 'I will climb the palm tree, I will take hold of its fruit stalks.' Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine."

Song of Solomon 7:1-3,7-9

526 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:13:17pm

re: #525 medaura18586

Pretty steamy stuff. Taken by itself, it would appear God is indeed promoting a written form of pornography. But just like Psalm 139:13-16, we cannot take it by itself. Instead we must take it within the context it was written.

The same is true with the other two verses used by anti-abortion Christians to defend their cause. From the book of Jeremiah, these Crusaders are fond of quoting the phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee," from the first chapter. But they never quote the entire passage, which changes the meaning considerably:

"Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord. Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant."

Jeremiah 1:4-10

This is a special event -- the birth of a prophet. God brought the prophet Jeremiah into the world for a divine purpose, and because of that, God was planning Jeremiah's life "before" he was even conceived. God was preparing him to do miraculous things, such as speak on behalf of God while still a child and setting him up as an overseer of nations and kingdoms. But the anti-abortionists simply overlook this on their way to claiming that the one phrase they quote proves God sees us as individual people while still in the womb. God saw Jeremiah in that way, but to claim it applies to all of us is akin to saying that we were all prepared as children to speak for God, and that God has placed all of us "over the nations and over the kingdoms" of the world. In essence, to claim this verse applies to anyone other than Jeremiah is to claim that we are all God's divine prophets. We are not; therefore, we cannot apply these verses to our own lives.

Another problem in this passage is the phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee." In Psalm 139:13-16 the anti-abortionists claim that because God was active in the creation of King David in his mother's womb that we must conclude the fetus is recognized by God as being a person. But here we see God stating that he knew Jeremiah "before" he was formed in the womb. By anti-abortionist logic, we would have to conclude that we are a human person even before conception. Since this is a ridiculous notion, we must, therefore, conclude that the anti-abortionist is interpreting these verses incorrectly.

The last verse most often quoted by anti-abortion Christians relates the story of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, and Mary, the mother of Jesus, while both were pregnant. When they meet, the pre-born John the Baptist leaps in his mother's womb at Mary's salutation. Let's read the original:

"And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:"

Luke 1:39-41

527 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:13:54pm

As much as the anti-abortion lobby would like this to mean that all fetuses are sentient persons because one is recorded as knowing Mary's words and then leapt inside the womb, the logic is as flawed as the Isaiah misquote. Again we have a miraculous event. Again we have a divine prophet whom God had ordained since before he was conceived. And this time it's even more miraculous, because the gestating John the Baptist is reacting to the approach of Mary, who at the time was pregnant with Jesus. Unless we believe all of us are chosen before birth to be the divine prophet ordained by God to herald the arrival of Christ on earth, then we cannot claim this passage refers to us. And indeed, it does not. While gestating fetuses are known to move and kick as their nervous systems and muscles are under construction, only divinely-inspired babies understand the spoken words of the mother of Jesus and can leap in recognition.

The point to all this is simple: we cannot take the verses we like and interpret them to support what we want to support. And, more to the point, we cannot simply accept what some Christian leaders proclaim as being God's word on a given subject without carefully reading the full text of the book and taking into consideration the entire context. We cannot, as we have shown, simply interpret those few verses from Psalms, Isaiah, and Luke as a reason to be against abortion. And, as we will see in a moment, there are still other verses -- if interpreted in the sloppy manner demonstrated by anti-abortion Christians -- in the Bible that could easily lead us to argue that indeed God, at times, supports abortion. Let's take a look.

In the full context of Ecclesiastes, King Solomon makes the point that much of life is futile. Over and over he writes that if life is good then we should be thankful. But when life is not good, Solomon makes some interesting statements:

"If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'"

Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

Clearly there is a quality of life issue being put forth in the Scriptures. And in this case, Solomon makes the point that it is sometimes better to end a pregnancy prematurely than to allow it to continue into a miserable life. This is made even more clear in these following verses:

"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 4:1-3

Here we have an argument for both euthanasia and abortion. When quality of life is at stake, Solomon seems to make the argument that ending a painful life or ending what will be a painful existence is preferable. Now remember, we're not talking about David's songs here. We're reading the words of the man to whom God gave the world's greatest wisdom.

And Solomon was not alone in this argument. Consider the words of Job, a man of great faith and wealth, when his life fell upon the hardest of times:

528 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:14:26pm

"And Job said, 'Let the day perish on which I was to be born, and the night which said, "a boy is conceived." May that day be darkness; let not God above care for it, nor light shine on it.'"

"Why did I not die at birth, come forth from my womb and expire? Why did the knees receive me, and why the breasts, that I should suck? For now I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept then, I would have been at rest, with kings and with counselors of the earth, who rebuilt ruins for themselves; or with princes who had gold, who were filling their houses with silver,. Or like the miscarriage which is discarded, I would not be, as infants that never saw light. There the wicked cease from raging, and there the weary are at rest. The prisoners are at ease together; they do not hear the voice of the taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free from his master."

Job 3:2-4,11-19

And again a few chapters later Job reiterates the greater grace he would have known if his life had been terminated as a fetus:

"Why then hast Thou brought me out of the womb? Would that I had died and no eye had seen me! I should have been as though I had not been, carried from womb to tomb."

Job 10:18-19

Clearly there is a strong argument here that the quality of a life is as important if not more important than the act of being born. Indeed, we could claim that the Bible supports ending a pregnancy in the face of a life without quality. And, if I wanted to be bold, I could claim that this interpretation is in fact a biblical mandate to support the use of abortion as a way to improve our quality of life. And taking these verses to their extreme, I could claim that abortion is not just a good idea, it is a sacrament.

Actually, I will stop short of making that claim. In fact, I will stop short of making the claim that the Bible condemns or supports abortion at all. It does neither. The condemning and supporting comes not from the words of the Bible but from leaders within our Culture of Christianity who use verses out of context -- the same way I just did to support abortion -- to support their views against abortion. The condemning and the supporting comes not from the Scriptures but from average Christians who take the easy way out, accepting one or two verses of the Bible as proof that their leaders are speaking the gospel truth. The condemning and supporting comes not from God but from those who do not take the time to read the Bible, in its own context, and decide for themselves the meanings therein.

For indeed, there is one passage in the Bible that deals specifically with the act of causing a woman to abort a pregnancy. And the penalty for causing the abortion is not what many would lead us to believe:

"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Exodus 21:22-25

529 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:14:34pm

I could go on,....

530 DANEgerus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:15:48pm

re: #472 Thanos

My complaint against the scripted leak of the DHS report was that it's contents reflected a clearly deliberate effort to demonize any who might dissent from the administration, and members of the US military, by commingling them with the more classic militia nutjob type like a Scott Roeder.

No one says there aren't rightwing extremists, but to paint with such a broad brush, as the DHS clearly did, was a deliberately crafted partisan smear.

The Leftwing blogs use of Scott Roeder as a "poster boy", when he is in fact clearly an exception to the "rule" they attempted to create I would argue is further proof of the intent of the DHS report's "leak".

531 notutopia  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:16:21pm

Commenting on Dr. Tiller’s death, Mr. Leach said, “To call this a crime is too simplistic.” He added, “There is Christian scripture that would support this."

This is classic distorted rationalism conjured up by a gross over reaction to religious context.
What hypocrisy! You are downright shameful Mr. Leach and you are a Christian hypocrite!

532 cgn38navy  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:16:56pm

re: #488 Charles
Not if the left had their way. I used to debate a little at feministing and pandagon until I realized I was just wasting time. There is a very strong faction that believes it should be on demand, no questions asked.

533 AMER1CAN  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:18:17pm

re: #502 LGoPs

Given those circumstances, of course not. But my point was that health of the mother is not, IMO, a reason for performing partial birth abortions as a ceasarean would seem to be a safer procedure in regards to that health. The story you cite is heart wrenching and heaven forbid I be in the position to have to make that decision but the decision was based on the health of the babies.

re: #522 Charles

So your position is that the life of the mother is insignificant, and you would take away a doctor's and mother's right to make decisions about the proper procedures when her life is in danger?

Agreed, that is totally ridiculous. Like umm, LGoPs, are you a doctor? If so, don't ever let me be a pateint wherever you work.

The mothers health should be taken into account #1 in my opinion.

534 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:19:11pm

re: #411 debutaunt

What is their conclusion?

That's just it. I can't figure out what they're trying to say.

535 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:20:04pm

re: #530 DANEgerus

My complaint against the scripted leak of the DHS report was that it's contents reflected a clearly deliberate effort to demonize any who might dissent from the administration, and members of the US military, by commingling them with the more classic militia nutjob type like a Scott Roeder.

No one says there aren't rightwing extremists, but to paint with such a broad brush, as the DHS clearly did, was a deliberately crafted partisan smear.

The Leftwing blogs use of Scott Roeder as a "poster boy", when he is in fact clearly an exception to the "rule" they attempted to create I would argue is further proof of the intent of the DHS report's "leak".

There was no broad brush, and the report did not smear all conservatives or all veterans. It was very narrowly focused on extremists, and was very careful in fact to say that only a few veterans might be susceptible to recruitment by extremist groups.

Those are the facts. The picture you're painting of the report is exaggerated and distorted.

536 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:22:08pm
537 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:24:14pm

re: #529 medaura18586

OK, I've got to put my kids to bed and it seems like you're dumping a term paper you've written before on me so let me catch up later, OK?

Does it not seem a little illogical that a being with separate DNA (and a separate soul, if you believe that) can be a protected human simply by passing through the birth canal? As viability gets earlier and earlier, we're forced to say that what it a human baby is a moving target which seems very strange. The group I belong to gives medical help, clothing, prayers and spends a lot of time praying with women after an abortion as they realize what they have done. It's not a sinister group and that is my complete experience. This whole business makes me sad and angry (yes, at the murderer too).

538 J.S.  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:28:36pm

re: #501 medaura18586

Medaura, please....I do find the statement: "Not only is it not widely available, but very few women, if any, would choose to undergo a late-term abortion for frivolous reasons." that's what I would call "a stretch." Of course, there will be women who will want a late term abortion - but how do you know it'll be "very few"? Let's suppose it's a "large number." Then what? (for the sake of argument.) (disclaimer: I was recently reading about the case of the statistician named Gerolamo Cardano -- his mother attempted to abort him, repeatedly. she was extremely promiscuous and despised children.)

539 notutopia  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:28:44pm

The legal term for third trimester pregnancy abortions, is partial-birth abortion. For those who would like to read the legal criteria for medical personnel and the pregnant woman.....
[Link: www.lawserver.com...]

with all Code updates here...
[Link: uscode.house.gov...]

540 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:29:00pm

re: #536 buzzsawmonkey

The passage you quote above has absolutely nothing to do with "abortion." It refers to accidentally causing a miscarriage.

While both abortion and miscarriage have the same result--termination of a pregnancy--the two are by no means equivalent.

But the equivalent of your understanding of what the Exodus passage treats, for fully grown humans, would be accidental killing or involuntary manslaughter. When the latter occur, the punishment for the perpetrator is not paying the victim's father a sum of money determined by a judge.

The passage says nothing about "accidentally" or not, causing the miscarriage. "When a man strikes a woman" does not treat motivation at all. And the intention has got nothing to do with it. If an embryo or fetus were considered legally or spiritually equivalent in its rights to a fully formed individual, the "tooth for tooth," and, more to the point, "life for life" provisions would kick in.

541 ontheleftcoast  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:29:23pm

This guy seems to have had a long history of mental problems. Unmedicated paranoids aren't just like the rest of us only different, they can be, and all too often are, dangerous.

Here's an interesting take on it from a guy who blogs asDelaware Libertarian:...

Anyway, antipsychotic meds, in addition to their nasty adverse physical effects, often disrupt the taker's already messed up sense of self. It's easy to say "good" but in a way, if there's any spark of health, it's in there, too. Such a person often has to have some sense of love or duty to others to take meds like that and be willing to stay on them. It's really pretty tragic. Of course, not as tragic as what can happen when people like that are running around loose.
Especially when their mental illness resonates with a religio-political system that justifies violence.

542 ontheleftcoast  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:32:46pm

Sorry about that, I omitted the quote to go with the link:

The timeline is therefore quite revealing: Roeder had become rabidly--possibly even violently--anti-abortion since the 1980s, and was arrested in 1996 en route to the Montana Freemen stand-off with law enforcement carrying a trunk full of explosives. He went to jail rather than pay his taxes even after an Appeals Court over-turned his conviction. He had a long history of mental illness, and was open about his personal approval of violence against abortion providers:

"I know that he believed in justifiable homicide," antiabortion activist Regina Dinwiddie told the Kansas City Star. "I know he very strongly believed that abortion was murder and that you ought to defend the little ones."


That name Regina Dinwiddie should be a key clue, as dear old Regina is one of a number of people who do qualify as anti-abortion terrorists...

And so on. RTWT.

543 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:36:21pm

re: #537 Spenser (with an S)

OK, I've got to put my kids to bed and it seems like you're dumping a term paper you've written before on me so let me catch up later, OK?

Does it not seem a little illogical that a being with separate DNA (and a separate soul, if you believe that) can be a protected human simply by passing through the birth canal? As viability gets earlier and earlier, we're forced to say that what it a human baby is a moving target which seems very strange. The group I belong to gives medical help, clothing, prayers and spends a lot of time praying with women after an abortion as they realize what they have done. It's not a sinister group and that is my complete experience. This whole business makes me sad and angry (yes, at the murderer too).

It's actually not my paper. It's that of a former Christian. I came across it as I was researching scriptural basis for anti-abortion sentiment, and I was taken by surprise to find that there was pretty much none.

I am not a proponent of abortion in general; and I think whimsical late-term abortion should not be legal. But I believe fanatical "every sperm is sacred" anti-abortion activists use late-term abortions as straw-men to elicit horror and disgust: the vast majority of late term abortions are performed for reasons concerning the health of the mother or fetal abnormalities which would result in a short, painful, or otherwise handicapped life for the baby.

The closer to delivery, the more unpalatable the prospect of abortion, all things equal. But all things are seldom equal, as these stories Charles has been reporting on show.

I salute you or any other people involved in organizations that promote a pro-life stance within the context of "pro-choice," as in "choosing life." Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion; it means pro-choice. But it should be a woman's right to choose and that right should not be meddled with at all except for in very rare cases of late-term would-be abortions unjustified by health concerns.

544 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:37:46pm
545 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:40:42pm
546 zelnaga  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:53:40pm

re: #521 medaura18586

You quoted the example of Proposition 8 as a successful example of suppressing personal rights, an example to be emulated. Just like it succeeded with gay marriage, it can with abortion rights, and with lynching. Are you encouraging anti-abortion-rights fanatics to engage in a legal battle to outlaw abortion, although you think such attempts would be futile? If so, why should they follow your advice?


Well, I don't think they'd be 100% successful. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll be futile, either - you may not be able to get abortion punishable by capital punishment but you may be able to outlaw third trimester abortions, under penalty of a fine or something.

Franklin wrote that the pen is mightier than the sword. Although I don't agree with Roeder's position, the doctor he murdered would still be alive if Roeder had taken Franklin's advice.

Of course, if Roeder had written sufficiently inflammatory rhetoric, that might have motivated someone else to kill the doctor, as well.

At the end of the day, who knows what would have happened if Roeder had been a different person. I just think that there were other things he could have done to help his cause. I don't agree with his cause but that's not to say that the strategy he employed to advance his cause can't be analyzed.

By this same token, that you were a McCain supporter doesn't mean you can't admire the campaigning Obama did or how he performs in front of a teleprompter. Nor does it mean that you can't be frustrated with the comparatively poor campaigning McCain did. Believing in the strategy one employees to advance a cause is not at all the same thing as believing in that cause.

So I should feel free to try legalizing lynching, right? You just think I won't succeed, as in, because the cultural climate would be too hostile to the mainstreaming of such a practice, right? But if it weren't, then anything goes, right? The will of the people, and whatnot... Is that what you're saying? Whatever I can convince the mobs to legally adopt, is fine by you?


Well, the constitution does protect the rights of the minorities and even in the extremely unlikely event that you were able to pass a law to trample on their rights, it'd likely be overturned, anyway, on appeal.

I don't believe in mob rule and neither did the founders of this country. That's why this country isn't ruled by mob rule - that's why we have an electoral college and why we have a senate and a house of representatives. That's why (some?) judges of life tenure.

Whatever I can convince the mobs to legally adopt, is fine by you?


Again, no - that I think he could have advanced his position more effectively does not at all mean I agree with his position.

If Roeder was pro-choice, the doctor would be alive. If Roeder was trying to change the laws instead of pulling triggers, the doctor would be alive. Killing the doctor was a disservice not only to pro-choice people but also a waste of effort for pro-life people. What I'm saying is... it seems to me that no matter what side of the spectrum you're on, you should be against this.

547 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:54:20pm

re: #543 medaura18586

...But it should be a woman's right to choose and that right should not be meddled with at all except for in very rare cases of late-term would-be abortions unjustified by health concerns.


That's quite a statement...

Women DO have a choice -

They can CHOOSE to take contraceptives...or not
They can CHOOSE what contraceptives to take
They can CHOOSE to have sex...or not
They can CHOOSE who they want to have sex with...or not

That's quite a lot of choices that affect the human being they have chosen to give a chance at life...many is us think that someone should be CHOOSING on behalf of these babies.

I believe in the utmost compassion for young mothers who are in trouble...

But I also believe in giving these babies a chance at this magnificent life

548 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:55:55pm

re: #538 J.S.

Medaura, please....I do find the statement: "Not only is it not widely available, but very few women, if any, would choose to undergo a late-term abortion for frivolous reasons." that's what I would call "a stretch." Of course, there will be women who will want a late term abortion - but how do you know it'll be "very few"? Let's suppose it's a "large number." Then what? (for the sake of argument.) (disclaimer: I was recently reading about the case of the statistician named Gerolamo Cardano -- his mother attempted to abort him, repeatedly. she was extremely promiscuous and despised children.)

I don't think it should be legal to abort a perfectly healthy and viable fetus if the mother's health is not endangered by delivery. If she didn't want a child for family-planning purposes, she should have had an abortion earlier. But such objectionable cases are very rare -- yet many pro-life groups would have one think they constitute the majority of late-term abortions, which they don't. And they'd further have one think most abortions are late-term, which they're not. So I have a problem with touting a tiny minority of abortion circumstances to smear disgust and contempt on the practice as a whole and advocate banning all abortions...

549 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:58:33pm

re: #546 zelnaga

OK, that's reasonable.

550 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:05:08pm

re: #547 kiwiviv

That's quite a statement...

Women DO have a choice -

They can CHOOSE to take contraceptives...or not
They can CHOOSE what contraceptives to take
They can CHOOSE to have sex...or not
They can CHOOSE who they want to have sex with...or not

That's quite a lot of choices that affect the human being they have chosen to give a chance at life...many is us think that someone should be CHOOSING on behalf of these babies.

Whether a woman CHOOSES to take contraceptives... or not -- is none of your business
What contraceptives a woman CHOOSES to take -- is none of your business
Whether a woman CHOOSES to have sex -- is none of your business
Whether a woman CHOOSES whom to have sex with... or not -- is none of your business

p.s. Contraceptives have been known to have from time to time.

551 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:05:38pm

re: #550 medaura18586

p.s. Contraceptives have been known to have failed from time to time.

552 J.S.  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:07:01pm

re: #548 medaura18586

(I'm not at all opposed to all abortions...I tend to believe the whole matter should be left up to the parties concerned...but, I'm just wondering about those cases in which a woman, in the final trimester, decides that she wants to abort -- then what? if her reason is that she's decided that, after all, she's not willing to bear the burden of "parenthood" -- the "responsibility is too much to bear" -- then what? Should the state at that point intervene and say, "no", the pregnancy has gone too far, and adoption, not abortion, is now required?)

553 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:08:44pm

re: #550 medaura18586

Whether a woman CHOOSES to take contraceptives... or not -- is none of your business
What contraceptives a woman CHOOSES to take -- is none of your business
Whether a woman CHOOSES to have sex -- is none of your business
Whether a woman CHOOSES whom to have sex with... or not -- is none of your business

p.s. Contraceptives have been known to have from time to time.

Correct - it is none of my business - I am just saying that they DO have a CHOICE...and I'm pro-choice in this instance...

But...once a life has been formed, that life IS the responsibility of all of us...and that life IS my business - not only the mother's.

554 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:11:23pm

re: #544 buzzsawmonkey

Clearly, you have no idea of how to read Torah.

The passage says, "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child..." In other words, the men are fighting, and the woman is hurt--and loses her child--as collateral damage. Accidental miscarriage.

Likewise, "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, etc.," is limiting language, that specifies that compensation shall be equal--i.e., not "eye for hand." This is tort law, and the fact that "hand for hand," or "life for life" is used has absolutely nothing to do with death penalties; "thou shalt give" refers to money, not limbs.

I read Torah at face value only, and my interpretation of those verses is that Jewish law does not treat the unborn as equivalent to a separate fully-formed individual. Your clarification does not alter that straightforward interpretation in any meaningful way. The case of the donkey is interesting, but it further reinforces my conclusion. All I'm saying is that based on those verses, the fetus/embryo certainly does not sound sacred.

I think those verses work in favor of abortion rights. But if anything, they certainly don't work against them. I have yet to find any verses in the Bible (Torah and New Testament) that explicitly condemn abortion.

555 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:12:09pm

re: #553 kiwiviv

Correct - it is none of my business - I am just saying that they DO have a CHOICE...and I'm pro-choice in this instance...

But...once a life has been formed, that life IS the responsibility of all of us...and that life IS my business - not only the mother's.

No, it's not.

556 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:16:51pm

re: #555 medaura18586

No, it's not.

Well...SCOTUS decreed that ALL the choices are up to the woman...

But, if you believe that child is a human life - then abortion (as it is today) more closely resembles murder - we are a sad society indeed when we don't fight for these little lives. (And I am in no way talking about acting like Scott Roeder - or anything anywhere near that kind of action)

557 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:19:47pm

re: #501 medaura18586

Not only is it not widely available, but very few women, if any, would choose to undergo a late-term abortion for frivolous reasons. Those who don't want to carry the pregnancy to term for family-planning purposes get abortions as soon as possible, as early as one month after gestation, when the embryo is the size of a q-tip end, if that. It doesn't make sense from the woman's perspective either, to carry an embryo, take care of it, grow it into a fetus, a viable one, and then decide she doesn't want a baby. The only possible motivation I can think of for such irrational behavior is either mental health issues or emotional instability possibly connected to breaking up with the fetus's father -- anger stemming from infidelity or whatnot (I've heard of such a case second-hand; a boss at one of my internship jobs about three years ago had impregnated his girlfriend and then cheated on her and they broke up, at which point she decided to have an abortion).

Statistically speaking though, if a woman seeks a late-term abortion, odds are she has very and painful reasons behind her request.

Exactly, but that is not what the Terry Randals and his apologists say.

If you listened to O'Reilly today, not a single abortion was anything but a healthy baby. In his universe god doesn't screw up with pregnancy.

558 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:21:32pm

re: #552 J.S.

(I'm not at all opposed to all abortions...I tend to believe the whole matter should be left up to the parties concerned...but, I'm just wondering about those cases in which a woman, in the final trimester, decides that she wants to abort -- then what? if her reason is that she's decided that, after all, she's not willing to bear the burden of "parenthood" -- the "responsibility is too much to bear" -- then what? Should the state at that point intervene and say, "no", the pregnancy has gone too far, and adoption, not abortion, is now required?)

I think so... I'd like to draw the barrier at viability, not simply trimesters. But late-term abortions are dangerous for the mother... And the whole mess of it... The incentives are enough to deter most women regretting their impending parenthood from seeking a late-term abortion. But for the one in a million case, or whatever the rare occurrence, sure, I believe it's not unreasonable for the state to intervene.

559 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:24:32pm

re: #556 kiwiviv

Well...SCOTUS decreed that ALL the choices are up to the woman...

But, if you believe that child is a human life - then abortion (as it is today) more closely resembles murder - we are a sad society indeed when we don't fight for these little lives. (And I am in no way talking about acting like Scott Roeder - or anything anywhere near that kind of action)

With rhetoric like that, Tilly was a mass-murderer. Why exactly wouldn't you be in favor of someone killing a mass murderer if the SCOTUS and hence, the government, has abandoned "the little lives"?

560 zelnaga  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:30:43pm

re: #549 medaura18586

OK, that's reasonable.

Thanks, btw, for having the patience to hear me out - hopefully next time I present an argument like the one I did, I'll be able to present it clearly enough such that I won't have to spend the next umpteenth posts clarifying it. I guess we'll see, heh.

561 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:34:21pm

re: #537 Spenser (with an S)

OK, I've got to put my kids to bed and it seems like you're dumping a term paper you've written before on me so let me catch up later, OK?

Does it not seem a little illogical that a being with separate DNA (and a separate soul, if you believe that) can be a protected human simply by passing through the birth canal? As viability gets earlier and earlier, we're forced to say that what it a human baby is a moving target which seems very strange. The group I belong to gives medical help, clothing, prayers and spends a lot of time praying with women after an abortion as they realize what they have done. It's not a sinister group and that is my complete experience. This whole business makes me sad and angry (yes, at the murderer too).

Oh, puh-LEEEZE! Citing unique DNA as evidence of personhood is religious fetishization to the point of chemically defining soulhood. Does this mean that if I run into identical twins knocking back shooters in a bar, I can blow the head off one of them because his DNA isn't unique? Or do I have to test them forst to see which one got the soul? And if there's all this fucking respect for unique DNA, why doesn't it extend to what DNA tells us - that species evolutionarily diverged from ancient common ancestors, rather than being created independently and as is a few thousand years ago?

Look; fully a third of pregnancies are miscarried (spontaneously aborted). This makes God or Nature, whichever you prefer, far and away the world's largest abortionist. And is that perfect God making mistakes by aborting all those pregnancies, or is it a matter of rectifying the previous deific errors of allowing the pregnancies in the first place?

A zygote or embryo is not an ACTUAL present person, or even a POTENTIAL person, since the word 'potential' carries the connotatinve baggage of the inevitability of future actualization, when, as mentioned previously, fully a third of all pregnancies spontaneously about. Rather, we're talking about a POSSIBLE future person. And where the rights of a possible future person and those of an actual present person come into conflict, the rights of the latter must take moral precedence.

I am in favor of abortion without restriction in the first trimester (up to 13 weeks), abortion in cases of rape or incest until fetal viability (mid 2nd trimester), and abortion in the 3rd trimester only if the woman's life is in grave danger, or if she is in grave danger of suffering dire physical consequences (brain damage, paralysis, etc.), or if the fetus is already dead or is so horribly deformed that there is no way that it could long survive. If that moderate sensible center position isn't good enough for rabid antiabortion absolutist extremists, they can take a long walk off a short pier.

562 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:37:21pm

re: #561 Salamantis

Oh; the reason I cite fetal viability as a bright line in rape or incest cases is because before then, we are speaking of one person, and after that we are speaking of two, as after fetal viability there is no longer dependence upon a particular person for survival; any competent ICU, followed in due time by a competent adult, can care for the infant.

563 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:37:35pm

re: #559 medaura18586

With rhetoric like that, Tilly was a mass-murderer. Why exactly wouldn't you be in favor of someone killing a mass murderer if the SCOTUS and hence, the government, has abandoned "the little lives"?


Your sarcasm is charming -

Yes, I do believe that abortion is murder, but that is my opinion. It is also my opinion that the suitable consequence for abortionists (who are operating under the present law) does not include being killed by a deranged killer in a place of worship. I can believe that abortion is murder without desiring the death of the abortionist. You speak as if all the pro-life people operate within unreasonable and narrow line...but your argument is ridiculous.

564 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:39:57pm

re: #522 Charles

So your position is that the life of the mother is insignificant, and you would take away a doctor's and mother's right to make decisions about the proper procedures when her life is in danger?

No. What I am saying is that if the mother's life is in danger from the birth, then performing that birth in order to do a late term abortion does not seem sound. And no, I am not a doctor but it seems that if the life of the mother is the issue then the safer procedure is the ceasarian.
If society wants late term abortions, then say that society wants late term abortions. Don't cloak it in an argument that rings false. That is what I am saying.

565 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:40:58pm

re: #561 Salamantis

Wish I could give you more updings. As for treating unique DNA as a proxy for personhood, I wonder whether it would make rabid antiabortion absolutist extremists' heads explode to learn about chimeras. Are we talking about multiple souls trapped in the same body here... would aborting a chimera fetus count as double, triple, or quadruple homicide (depending on number of unique sets of DNA present in the organism) in their twisted brains?

566 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:41:35pm

re: #563 kiwiviv

Your sarcasm is charming -

Yes, I do believe that abortion is murder, but that is my opinion. It is also my opinion that the suitable consequence for abortionists (who are operating under the present law) does not include being killed by a deranged killer in a place of worship. I can believe that abortion is murder without desiring the death of the abortionist. You speak as if all the pro-life people operate within unreasonable and narrow line...but your argument is ridiculous.

Your argument is morally and intellectually inconsistent.

567 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:43:42pm

re: #566 medaura18586

Your argument is morally and intellectually inconsistent.

Easy to say - but no examples given

568 claire  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:43:44pm

re: #550 medaura18586

In all these discussions, the role of the sperm is never mentioned. The other half of the equation can take responsibility for keeping the sperm form meeting the egg, simply by visiting a Walgreens for a pack of condoms. It's so easy, but it isn't done in most accidental pregnancies, and why is this?

For the female to protect herself, she generally has to go to quite a bit more effort. Tell parents if that age, find a doctor, admit to "authority" figures and the world at large and herself that she desires to be a "wanton" women, with all the baggage that still in this day and age it carries with it- shame for the female and swagger for the male. OK? Go to the doctor, expose herself wide open to frankly embarrassing probing, questioning and viewing and then get the prescription, go find a pharmacy and "admit" her situation, and pay for all this. Not to mention all the pressures, decisions and drama she has to deal with in those early relationship years when she's just finding out how the real world works. All the guy has to do is visit Walgreens, and throw a tenner on the counter, yet in most cases he fails to, um hold up his end.

Just rambling a bit, but I always think of this when someone 40 years old goes off about how "simple" it is for a young females old to prevent a pregnancy, or deal with the consequences like they have the life experience to deal with such stuff.

You really want to save babies? Educate your sons on proper birth control methods.

569 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:48:29pm

To be consistent, all those antiabortionists who desire legal executions of the doctors performing them would also have to desire legal executions of all the women seeking and finding them. In both cases, we have both premeditation and a consensual conspiracy to perpetrate a single specific act.

But I have, during my time as a volunteer NOW clinic escort (without ever actually joining NOW), spoken with many of these women. The overwhelming majority of them didn't blithely decide on a whim to terminate their pregnancies as one might choose to try a different hair tint at a salon. No, they agonized excruciatingly over their decisions. But one made, many of them embraced those decisions with the same kind of desperation exhibited by a trapped animal that chews a paw off to escape. If abortion were illegal, they would seek out back alley butchers, pay people to punch them in their stomachs, drink abortifacent potions, and attempt to self-abort with coat hangars or knitting needles, and we would once again see the flood of septic or bled out women deluging hospital ERs and morgues. And that prospect is simply unconscionable.

Which is why, if abortion is ever made illegal in this country, I will illegally import and distribute RU-486 at cost to such women. It's the only decent and humane and moral thing to do.

570 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:51:18pm

re: #569 Salamantis

To be consistent, all those antiabortionists who desire legal executions of the doctors performing them would also have to desire legal executions of all the women seeking and finding them. In both cases, we have both premeditation and a consensual conspiracy to perpetrate a single specific act.

But I have, during my time as a volunteer NOW clinic escort (without ever actually joining NOW), spoken with many of these women. The overwhelming majority of them didn't blithely decide on a whim to terminate their pregnancies as one might choose to try a different hair tint at a salon. No, they agonized excruciatingly over their decisions. But one made, many of them embraced those decisions with the same kind of desperation exhibited by a trapped animal that chews a paw off to escape. If abortion were illegal, they would seek out back alley butchers, pay people to punch them in their stomachs, drink abortifacent potions, and attempt to self-abort with coat hangars or knitting needles, and we would once again see the flood of septic or bled out women deluging hospital ERs and morgues. And that prospect is simply unconscionable.

Which is why, if abortion is ever made illegal in this country, I will illegally import and distribute RU-486 at cost to such women. It's the only decent and humane and moral thing to do.

I think I have read this from you in another thread - possibly word for word

571 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:51:43pm

re: #568 claire

Condoms can break too. And they're an uncomfortable long-term birth-control solution for a stable couple. Women of reproductive age should get probed and questioned anyhow, regularly, so that early-stage cancers or other genital diseases may be caught and treated. From age 18 and upward, women are supposed to get yearly pap smears for this very reason. But I do agree that guys have it easy, and they can generally do more to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Women always get the shit end of the deal.

Ironic though, that most rabid antiabortion absolutist extremists are against teaching any form of birth control to teenagers other than abstinence. Thinking it will encourage pre-marital sex. And a lot of them are against contraception pure and simple... the "every sperm is sacred" crowd.

572 medaura18586  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:53:08pm

re: #570 kiwiviv

I think I have read this from you in another thread - possibly word for word

I have too... and I wouldn't get tired of reading it. Not a single word can be improved.

573 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:53:16pm

re: #570 kiwiviv

I think I have read this from you in another thread - possibly word for word

I have written much the same before, but I am rewriting form memory. Because I still feel the same way.

And the first paragraph wasn't in the prior post, if I recall.

574 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:57:32pm

re: #572 medaura18586

I have too... and I wouldn't get tired of reading it. Not a single word can be improved.

The illegal importation and distribution of RU-486 is most unwise

575 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:58:15pm

re: #571 medaura18586

Condoms can break too. And they're an uncomfortable long-term birth-control solution for a stable couple. Women of reproductive age should get probed and questioned anyhow, regularly, so that early-stage cancers or other genital diseases may be caught and treated. From age 18 and upward, women are supposed to get yearly pap smears for this very reason. But I do agree that guys have it easy, and they can generally do more to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Women always get the shit end of the deal.

Ironic though, that most rabid antiabortion absolutist extremists are against teaching any form of birth control to teenagers other than abstinence. Thinking it will encourage pre-marital sex. And a lot of them are against contraception pure and simple... the "every sperm is sacred" crowd.

No birth control is 100% effective. If a couple take rational and reasonable contraceptive precautions, and a pregnancy nevertheless results, should they be forced to carry the pregnancy to term, through no fault of their own?

I say no. First trimester abortions - including RU-486 abortions - are tailor-made for such regrettable yet occasional circumstances. Of course, there is also the morning after pill. But often the birth control would have been assumed to have worked, and the pregnancy would remain undetected, until the time for its use had passed.

576 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:00:31pm

re: #574 kiwiviv

The illegal importation and distribution of RU-486 is most unwise

Allowing women to go to personally lethal extremes when one can do something to help them is most unethical. And I would never consider illegally importing and distributing RU-486 as long as first trimester abortions remain legal; there is no need, and no point.

577 claire  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:16:43pm

re: #571 medaura18586

Women always get the shit end of the deal.

Yep, they sure do!

And I would venture a guess that the majority of unwanted pregnancies do not occur within stable long term relationships.

If the girls were sober and rational and emotionally mature enough to go to the doctor, etc, they wouldn't be getting pregnant. But given that they ARE getting pregnant, I don't think they have the wherewithall to take the proper steps before having sex. Should they? Absolutely. Are they doing it? Clearly not.

And the parental units, from some combo of squeamishness, prudishness, cowardliness, denial or whatever don't give enough effort to helping young people navigate the mine fields of life and they basically let them be thrown to the wolves.

578 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:18:08pm

an oldie-but-goody:

Bill O'reilly calls for "vigilante justice" against tiller.

What a "great american"

////

579 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:19:35pm

re: #551 medaura18586

p.s. Contraceptives have been known to have failed from time to time.

That is why you use more than one method at once, and then you are fine.

580 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:27:23pm

re: #578 ihateronpaul

an oldie-but-goody:

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

Bill O'reilly calls for "vigilante justice" against tiller.

What a "great american"

////


It sounds to me as though Bill is saying: "Can't be vigilantes. Can't do that..."

You have totally misrepresented what he said - and I am sure you know that.

581 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:28:06pm

re: #580 kiwiviv

It sounds to me as though Bill is saying: "Can't be vigilantes. Can't do that..."

You have totally misrepresented what he said - and I am sure you know that.

he also said "I]f I could get my hands on Tiller -- well, you know."

582 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:30:12pm
583 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:31:11pm

re: #581 ihateronpaul

he also said "I]f I could get my hands on Tiller -- well, you know."

Yes - here is the headline:

"[I]f I could get my hands on Tiller -- well, you know. Can't be vigilantes. Can't do that. It's just a figure of speech."

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between saying - "It's a figure of speech - don't do it" and your hyper-ventilating statement:

"Bill O'reilly calls for "vigilante justice" against tiller."

But of course...you already knew that...

584 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:32:52pm

re: #529 medaura18586

I could go on,....

You're kickin' ass, takin' names, and quoting chapter and verse tonight!

I love it when agnostics know their Bible better than the [insert group here]ists.

כבוד

585 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:34:56pm

re: #583 kiwiviv

Yes - here is the headline:

"[I]f I could get my hands on Tiller -- well, you know. Can't be vigilantes. Can't do that. It's just a figure of speech."

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between saying - "It's a figure of speech - don't do it" and your hyper-ventilating statement:

"Bill O'reilly calls for "vigilante justice" against tiller."

But of course...you already knew that...

well obviously he has to say that for legal reasons and to stay on the air. Have you heard of the concept of "saying one thing while meaning another"?

586 kiwiviv  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:38:40pm

re: #585 ihateronpaul

well obviously he has to say that for legal reasons and to stay on the air. Have you heard of the concept of "saying one thing while meaning another"?

You have given your self a bad name with this -

You TOTALLY misrepresented what O'reilly has said, and did say on his show tonight. It is impossible to get your interpretation out of his statement without a WHOLE LOT of presumption, misrepresentation and lies.

But then, I am sure you are also aware of that also

587 brockton808  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:47:52pm

re: #468 Charles

I wonder what percentage of partial-birth abortions fall into a similar category. Any stats, or just anecdotal?

If I remember right, Tiller was in court recently because he would not give detailed reasons for the procedure when he performed it.

588 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:51:06pm

re: #587 brockton808

I wonder what percentage of partial-birth abortions fall into a similar category. Any stats, or just anecdotal?

If I remember right, Tiller was in court recently because he would not give detailed reasons for the procedure when he performed it.

He was charged with consulting a doctor for a second opinion who was not truly independent.

And he was acquitted.

589 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:53:40pm

re: #587 brockton808

I wonder what percentage of partial-birth abortions fall into a similar category. Any stats, or just anecdotal?

If I remember right, Tiller was in court recently because he would not give detailed reasons for the procedure when he performed it.

A former attorney general was conducting an antiabortion jihad aginst Dr. Tiller using the legal system. But he was acquitted on all counts.

Hydrocephalic fetuses have heads swollen so large that they cannot pass through the birth canal. Such fetuses do not survive Caesarian delivery for long. And such deliveries can be hazardous for the mothers. Which is why their abnormally large heads are dismantled before being removed through the birth canal.

590 brockton808  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:55:05pm

re: #588 Charles

Was he acquitted because the court didn't think he needed to show this information, or because he proved that the procedures he performed were necessary?

591 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:56:59pm

re: #590 brockton808

Was he acquitted because the court didn't think he needed to show this information, or because he proved that the procedures he performed were necessary?

The latter. And it was a jury aquittal.

592 brockton808  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:57:44pm

re: #591 Salamantis

Thanks for the info.

593 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:05:37pm

re: #515 Bloodnok

The left thought the same thing about George Bush and the Patriot Act. I'll bet you thought they were overreacting, huh?

Slight distinction. There is no possible reading of the Patriot Act that even implies that political dissent or disagreeing with the administration is even akin to being a homeland security threat or an extremist action.

I'm not sure Charles and I read the same report. The DHS report I read said that I, for my beliefs that differ from the current administration's, AM a right-wing extremist and potential terror threat. The picture that it painted said the label might fit ANYONE not left of 'Moderate' on everything.

594 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:10:43pm

re: #593 JackofTrades

I'm not sure Charles and I read the same report. The DHS report I read said that I, for my beliefs that differ from the current administration's, AM a right-wing extremist and potential terror threat. The picture that it painted said the label might fit ANYONE not left of 'Moderate' on everything.

More distortions. It did not say anything even close to that. Go ahead -- go find just one quote from the report that supports your statement and post it here.

I'm not holding my breath.

595 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:25:20pm

re: #594 Charles

Not asking you to hold your breath. I'd have to go dig the thing up again. I do know that the one I read, which was an official DHS release, was far from complimentary to me. Now I may have misread something. Anything is possible, and I am only human.

596 Bloodnok  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:27:32pm

re: #593 JackofTrades

Slight distinction. There is no possible reading of the Patriot Act that even implies that political dissent or disagreeing with the administration is even akin to being a homeland security threat or an extremist action.

I'm not sure Charles and I read the same report. The DHS report I read said that I, for my beliefs that differ from the current administration's, AM a right-wing extremist and potential terror threat. The picture that it painted said the label might fit ANYONE not left of 'Moderate' on everything.

That's false. Nobody is out to get you. You are just politically powerless for a little while. That's all it is. Ride it out.

597 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:48:53pm

re: #591 Salamantis

The latter. And it was a jury aquittal.

Something to damage my confidence in juries. I guess I will have to look this up. I have yet to find even one instance where specifically a partial-birth abortion was essential for the safety and health of the mother. I haven't even been able to find testimony to Congress that convincingly argues that such MAY occasionally be medically necessary for the life/health of the mother.

As for some other comments you have made, I tend to get annoyed when broad misconceptions are used to paint an image that is contrary to the truth, especially about my or other people's beliefs. It's nothing personal, I'm sure, but I have to respond to a couple things.
(It's also possible that some of the comments I remember are not yours. Just your name sticks well in memory.)

To be consistent, all those antiabortionists who desire legal executions of the doctors performing them would also have to desire legal executions of all the women seeking and finding them. In both cases, we have both premeditation and a consensual conspiracy to perpetrate a single specific act.

Not as such. I am many things, but last I checked, inconsistent was not one of them. Especially since I consider the women nearly as great of victims as the child. Informed consent from the mothers is pretty much non-existent in this country, and the doctors, NOW, and Planned Parenthood are doing everything in their power to keep informed consent non-existent. The mother is not truly informed of the nature of the procedure, the dangers in the procedure, and many times, not told of the potential complications. The vast majority of women may not have treated it as blithely as all that, though one has to wonder on the women that have had multiple abortions. It is quite possible, even likely, that most of the women "agonized excruciatingly over their decisions." For all that, it was very rarely an informed decision, especially when the groups performing the abortions and pushing the abortions have a vested interest in that decision not being an informed decision.

598 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 9:02:18pm

re: #522 Charles

So your position is that the life of the mother is insignificant, and you would take away a doctor's and mother's right to make decisions about the proper procedures when her life is in danger?

Well, I don't know about anyone else on this matter. I am very staunchly anti-abortion. (I'm sure you have read/skimmed one or two of my comments on these threads...Charles seems to be everywhere here.)

With that on the table, I wish to again clarify/repeat something that I am sure I have said before. When it comes to a CLEAR case that it is the life of the baby or the life of the mother (and the cases with the potential of it being both lives), then I believe that the mother (and the father if he is involved in the family) should have the choice of an informed decision on the matter...and I would not condemn her OR the doctor for the result of that decision. (I have also known a fair number of women that would, placed in that position, choose to put their child's life as priority above theirs...but that, as I see it, is their right to choose as much as choosing otherwise.)

One problem I have with this argument is that cases where abortions are performed BECAUSE the mother's life is seriously threatened (either by the pregnancy or by other medical conditions that cannot be treated without terminating the pregnancy) account for such a small percentage of abortions performed that I don't even have the fraction of 1 percent calculated. Such cases do happen, but they are not every abortion performed, or even as many as 1% of abortions performed. The number is so small that even cases of abortions due to rape or incest (which I do NOT support) account for more, and they are less than 1% of abortions performed.

599 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 9:03:49pm

re: #596 Bloodnok

That's false. Nobody is out to get you. You are just politically powerless for a little while. That's all it is. Ride it out.

Damn, I love this response. ;) As for politically powerless, that is the lovely thing about our political system. I'll be politically powerless when I'm dead. (I don't live in Chicago, so I will NOT be voting after I am dead.)

600 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 9:27:40pm

re: #582 buzzsawmonkey


Once again, however, if you are looking for something related to abortion in the Biblical text, I refer you to this week's parsha, Nasso, specifically Numb. 5:11-31--the ritual of Sotah, aka the "Ordeal of Jealousy," which I referenced upthread in #423. While this ordeal is considered, in tradition and in Tractate Sotah, to be a divinely-imposed punishment which determines guilt or innocence in accusations of adultery, reading it at "face value" suggests that it was, in fact, a paternity test by abortifacient, administered under priestly auspices, which provided a suspicious husband with divine--i.e., incontrovertible--proof of legitimacy or illegitimacy according to whether or not the abortifacient "took."

Having read, and re-read this passage. I don't know what has made it into Jewish tradition since this ritual was given, nor do I really care, since it was clearly demonstrated in many cases in the New Testament that the Jewish Traditions and understandings of the religious leaders missed the spirit of the law, and in many cases, the letter of the law in pretty much every instance.

What I know about this passage is that no translation that I have read, nor any interpretation of the original language that I have found, even imply that the woman was pregnant. The divine act given in the text is a curse that included wasting away, possibly flesh-rot as well, if the woman was guilty (the husband's jealousy being hence proven to be justified). The curse promised, if the woman was guilty of hidden adultery included barrenness. The text does not, however, even slightly imply that the woman in question was pregnant. Far more accurate to say that she could not, due to her adultery, even conceive a child in the first place. Then the passage points out that, in the case of her innocence, she is clearly vindicated by both being completely unharmed by the water, and also being able to conceive in the future. (I do know that some traditions say she would conceive very soon after the ritual if innocent.)

Taken all together, there is nothing in the passage that even suggests the possibility of an abortion.

601 Shug  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 9:41:39pm

re: #589 Salamantis

A former attorney general was conducting an antiabortion jihad aginst Dr. Tiller using the legal system. But he was acquitted on all counts.

Hydrocephalic fetuses have heads swollen so large that they cannot pass through the birth canal. Such fetuses do not survive Caesarian delivery for long. And such deliveries can be hazardous for the mothers. Which is why their abnormally large heads are dismantled before being removed through the birth canal.

You are a chaperone into clinics. Stop at that.

You don't know what you are talking about

602 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 10:29:24pm
603 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:32:20pm

re: #597 JackofTrades

Not as such. I am many things, but last I checked, inconsistent was not one of them. Especially since I consider the women nearly as great of victims as the child. Informed consent from the mothers is pretty much non-existent in this country, and the doctors, NOW, and Planned Parenthood are doing everything in their power to keep informed consent non-existent. The mother is not truly informed of the nature of the procedure, the dangers in the procedure, and many times, not told of the potential complications. The vast majority of women may not have treated it as blithely as all that, though one has to wonder on the women that have had multiple abortions. It is quite possible, even likely, that most of the women "agonized excruciatingly over their decisions." For all that, it was very rarely an informed decision, especially when the groups performing the abortions and pushing the abortions have a vested interest in that decision not being an informed decision.

In the clinic in which I was an escort, all the women were counseled before the procedure - in fact, before the clinic would even accept payment. And the first thing out of the counselor's mouth was always "Is this something YOU want to do? Not someone else; you."

But your idea of adequate counseling would probably be to stick them in the Ludovico Technique chair out of Clockwork Orange and play Silent Scream on a continuous loop until they themselvs screamed.

Let me tell you about abortion regret. Before I met my ex-wife, she was a PAO officer at a naval base in Italy. She was young, lonely, and didn't speak the language, and she fell into an affair with another Naval officer. She used a diaphragm, but it failed her and she got pregnant.

She went to her CO with this situation and requested guidance. Both she and her CO were staunch Catholics; he advised her to carry the pregnancy to term and give it up for adoption, and she agreed.

As soon as the pregnancy had progressed to the point where abortion was no longer an option, her CO publicly denounced her as a whore and a strumpet before the whole command. Meanwhile, other Navy women who got pregnant were taking weekend trips to Germany to terminate them, and suffering no social or professional repercussions.

She was crushed. Although she had planned to make the Navy her career, as soon as she delivered and gave up the infant, she resigned her commission, came back to the US, and began graduate school, where I met her. More than thirty years later, she still wishes she had gotten an abortion, has nightmares about running into that child, and curses the name of that asshole bastard who talked her out of it, then publicly excoriated her for taking his advice.

604 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:37:04pm

re: #598 JackofTrades

Well, I don't know about anyone else on this matter. I am very staunchly anti-abortion. (I'm sure you have read/skimmed one or two of my comments on these threads...Charles seems to be everywhere here.)

With that on the table, I wish to again clarify/repeat something that I am sure I have said before. When it comes to a CLEAR case that it is the life of the baby or the life of the mother (and the cases with the potential of it being both lives), then I believe that the mother (and the father if he is involved in the family) should have the choice of an informed decision on the matter...and I would not condemn her OR the doctor for the result of that decision. (I have also known a fair number of women that would, placed in that position, choose to put their child's life as priority above theirs...but that, as I see it, is their right to choose as much as choosing otherwise.)

One problem I have with this argument is that cases where abortions are performed BECAUSE the mother's life is seriously threatened (either by the pregnancy or by other medical conditions that cannot be treated without terminating the pregnancy) account for such a small percentage of abortions performed that I don't even have the fraction of 1 percent calculated. Such cases do happen, but they are not every abortion performed, or even as many as 1% of abortions performed. The number is so small that even cases of abortions due to rape or incest (which I do NOT support) account for more, and they are less than 1% of abortions performed.

In a country of 300+ million people, where millions of abortions are performed yearly, only two other doctors in the US perform the late term necessity service that Dr. Tiller performed. People nationwide were referred to him. Is that a small enough percentage for you?

I suppose those twisted bastards will be gunning for those two now.

605 Yashmak  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 7:07:45am

re: #601 Shug

You are a chaperone into clinics. Stop at that.

You don't know what you are talking about

He's absolutely right about hydrocephalic fetuses. In the rare case that the fetus actually survives delivery, it nearly always exhibits severe mental retardation.

606 Yashmak  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 7:17:45am

re: #484 AMER1CAN

The first thing that jumped out at me was not that she was seeking to have an abortion, it was that she could be 8 months pregnant and not know that she has twins and that they are conjoined. That is shocking and tilts towards incompetent doctors in my opinion. You have been carrying around conjoined twins and don't notice till 8 months? It says the women was complaining of discomfort. Why didn't she go to the doctor earlier? If so, why didn't the doctors do a ultrasound sooner? 8 months? Good heavens.

Many women don't visit the doctor until they start to show, especially among younger pregnant women. Go to any obstetrician's office, and you'll see posters about it. It's a long standing problem. That may have been what happened in the case you're mentioning.

607 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 7:23:16am

re: #603 Salamantis

That's a horrific story.

608 medaura18586  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 7:25:51am

re: #478 AMER1CAN

This falls under "special circumstances" for sure and I would never pass judgment on her for her decision. It's for reasons like this that a procedure (abortion) must be performed.

It can be performed for all sorts of reasons, including the woman simply not liking to have a baby. Get that in your head.

609 Red Lion  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:45:11am

As usual, Charles is the voice of reason. I, too, listened to right-wing talk radio in KC last night, and one man actually called up and said he would have done the same thing, if he could have only gotten his hands on a gun, and most anti-abortion people felt the same but wouldn't admit it! The hostess, Darla Jaye of KMBZ-AM, did her best to tamp down such bloody-minded sentiments, but they cropped up (in less straightforward form) again and again. For instance, the anti-abortion callers invariably felt compelled to preface their lengthy "buts" and calmunies against Tiller by introducing them with "Now, murdering the doctor was wrong ..." Gag ...

610 noahsatellite  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:18:22am
"...justifiable homicide..."

What an oxymoron!

People are way too good at justifying their own actions...

611 JackofTrades  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:08:31am

re: #607 medaura18586

That's a horrific story.

Not only a horrific story, but I am short on time. Rather, let it suffice to say that I as freely and openly condemn that treatment of her as I do abortion.

Oh, and Salamantis, there is a VAST difference between informed consent and the kind of torture you describe as something I might be suggesting. There is also a vast difference between "Is this something YOU want to do? Not someone else; you." and either informed consent OR what I might consider adequate counseling.

612 JackofTrades  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:19:12am

re: #602 buzzsawmonkey

There are many, many reasons for a "Spirit of Jealousy" to overtake the husband, and only one suggests the possibility that she might be pregnant. Considering the detail given in the text and the context, it is intellectually dishonest to argue a certainty from silence. This applies to your interpretation of what made the water bitter being something to cause abortions, as well. I would go so far as to say that you cannot reach the conclusion you have reached short of believing the passage to be about causing abortions before looking at what it really says. The base presupposition is flawed, therefore everything build upon it is likewise questionable.

The only thing the passage says about the fertility of the woman and punishment or vindication only indicate that she either will or will not be able to conceive, not be already pregnant. It further details that the lack of ability to conceive will be accompanied by obvious, and likely quite painful, disease and deformity making it openly and apparently apparent to the public that she was a closet-adulterous, while vindication would be so clear in ability to conceive and lack of such punishment that she would soon in the future prove fertile.

Again, the passage says absolutely nothing about causing abortions (or even the presence of an pregnancy), unless you deliberately read such into the passage, contrary to the clear language.

613 JackofTrades  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:20:27am

As for the New Testament evidence against the traditions of the elders, etc, start with every time Jesus said, "You have heard it was said", and proceeded to, "but I tell you." Go on from there. It is abundantly clear.

614 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:51:41pm
615 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:28:17pm

I wonder whether the antiabortion movement will care about all the blood on their hands from women suffering lethal pregnancies who will die because the late Dr. Tiller's lifesaving services are no longer available to them. I would guess that they will strenuously pursue much more of the same, by striving to end the careers of the only other two doctors left nationwide who perform such essential medical services.


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