Protester Slain in Tehran, Others Wounded

World • Views: 3,496

At least one person is dead in Tehran after the pro-government Basiji militia opened fire on the crowd.

TEHRAN, Iran – Gunfire from a pro-government militia killed one man and wounded several others Monday after hundreds of thousands of chanting opponents of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad marched in central Tehran to support their pro-reform leader in his first public appearance since disputed elections. …

A group of demonstrators with fuel canisters set a small fire at a compound of a volunteer militia linked to Iran’s powerful Revolutionary Guard as the crowd dispersed from the square. As some tried to storm the building, people on the roof could be seen firing directly at the demonstrators at the northern edge of the square, away from the heart of the rally.

An Associated Press photographer saw one person fatally shot and at least two others who appeared to be seriously wounded. …

The crowd — many wearing the trademark green color of Mousavi’s campaign — was more than five miles (nine kilometers) long, and based on previous demonstrations in the square and surrounding streets, its size was estimated to be in the hundreds of thousands.

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613 comments
1 pegcity  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:13:38pm

does president UH UH have anything to say?

2 turn  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:14:06pm

What say you O? (and please don't read it off a friggin teleprompter!)

3 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:14:06pm

Present!

4 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:14:07pm

re: #1 pegcity

does president UH UH have anything to say?

Uh .........

5 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:14:37pm

Hundreds of thousands of people risking life and limb.
Where's a statement Mr. President?

6 Sizzlack  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:15:29pm

It wouldn't surprise me if Obama found some strange way to apologize for all this.

7 Chicken Kiev  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:15:29pm

Tiananmen.

8 Gearhead  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:16:17pm

re: #1 pegcity

does president UH UH have anything to say?

That must be a BIG waffle.

9 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:17:34pm

'Rasht; All ppl that were talking on cellphone or taking pics/movies got cought #IranElectionless than 20 seconds ago from Seesmic Desktop'

[Link: twitter.com...]

10 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:17:47pm

Quick Farsi lesson: Basiji translates as cowardly thugs who fire on unarmed people.

11 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:17:52pm

re: #7 Chicken Kiev

Tiananmen.

Thankfully, no. They are not (yet!) clearing the streets with overwhelming firepower; instead, they are trying to intimidate into silence. There may have been a time when this would work, but I sense that it will take more than this to make these people back down. Freedom will out.

12 brookly red  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:17:59pm

re: #6 Sizzlack

It wouldn't surprise me if Obama found some strange way to apologize for all this.

Oh, thats easy... "the failed policies of the past"

It's comming, just wait...

13 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:18:38pm

re: #7 Chicken Kiev

Tiananmen.

Hopefully not. It's a lousy precedent, all around. I'm thinking: Bucharest, 1989.... hoping, thinking, something like that.

14 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:18:49pm

re: #6 Sizzlack

His speech writers are working hard on an anecdote about Obama where he can work in a mention of the Iranian situation.

15 Gearhead  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:19:01pm

Taking them a while to figure out how to blame this on Bush, eh?

16 filetandrelease  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:19:13pm

To overthrow the Shaw the revoutionary youth joined rankes with the Islamist, I hope they have a better plan this time.

17 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:19:15pm

re: #7 Chicken Kiev

This is NOT Tiananmen!

18 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:19:26pm
19 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:19:54pm

re: #7 Chicken Kiev

Tiananmen.

HUGE difference

in 1989 the world didn't know the scope of the protests nor the brutality of the gov't putting it down till well after the fact. Photos/ videos and eye witnesse were not readily available

Today we are seeing in real time what is going on

20 zombie  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:19:59pm

Obama could change the course of history if he came out right now and vigorously rejected the fraudulent election and threw his support behind the opposition/protesters. That would be the spark they need to ignite the counter-revolution -- the knowledge that the U.S. is behind them.

And when the new regime comes in, they likely will abandon their nuclear ambitions -- and the world will take a big step toward peace and stability.

But no. Obama is waffling and hesitating, voting "present" in the Iranian election. And his hesitation is going to have dire conseqeunces.

21 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:20:00pm

re: #13 Occasional Reader

It's nice to see well wishes for the Iranian people instead of partisan cheap shots.

22 Steve Rogers  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:20:12pm

Iranian bullets = "Robust debate."

23 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:20:23pm

Budapest.

24 S'latch  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:20:23pm

I wonder how long these protests will last. Not long I bet.

25 Baier  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:20:25pm

re: #15 Gearhead

Taking them a while to figure out how to blame this on Bush, eh?

Depends, if it fails, it was Bush's fault, if a counter-revolution succeeds, it was Obama's magic speech.

26 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:20:27pm

...volunteer militia linked to Iran’s powerful Revolutionary Guard

Oh I think I can guess the type of man who would volunteer to be in a militia linked to the guard:

Murdering, psychopathic bastard comes to mind.

27 flyovercountry  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:20:29pm

Didn't Jimmy Carter observe this election to make certain everything was Honky Dory. This level of violence sure seems like the people are suspecting of a sham. Not only did they not vote for this clown, they realize that nobody voted for this clown. Pandora's box is opening wider and wider.

28 kynna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:20:31pm

This is why the 2nd Amendment is so important. People who think the government will never turn their sights on their own citizens are living in a dream world.

Sadly, I'm surprised it took this long for the Iranian government to do it. I wonder if the lack of strong responses by the Western "leaders" gave them the tacit "go ahead".

29 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:20:35pm

I pray God will strengthen the resolve of the Iranian people to throw off their oppressors.

30 Kragar  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:20:44pm

I can only hope the reports of protestors actually engaging security forces are accurate. If they let themselves be dispersed, then this will quickly be crushed and the Mullahs will crack down ever harder.

31 JustABill  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:20:46pm

re: #15 Gearhead

Taking them a while to figure out how not to blame this on credit this to Bush, eh?

32 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:21:01pm

re: #23 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Budapest.

That's probably a more apt analogy.

33 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:21:08pm

re: #7 Chicken Kiev

Tiananmen.

This is more shaping up to be the fall of the Soviet Empire. Khamenei tried his Islamic Perestroika and got bit big time.

34 Diamond Bullet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:21:09pm

Without being too flip, I feel compelled to point out that it may well be time for the Iraqi Information Minister to triumphantly come out of retirement.

"There are no protests in Freedom Square, no never."

"The supporters of Moussavi will never enter the capital. We have destroyed their tanks and shovels."

"They are nowhere near the airport, this is an illusion. They are not worth an old shoe."

35 ssn697  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:21:33pm

I'm not one for saying a President needs to say this, or say that, but Obama NEEDS to get out in front, condemn the election farce, and take a damn stand.

36 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:21:37pm

re: #23 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Budapest.

Thats exactly what I keep remembering ...

I hope and pray it doesn't turn out to be a second 1956!

37 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:22:00pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

That's probably a more apt analogy.

But, again, hopefully WON'T prove to be the apt one... (i.e., the bad guys won).

38 Chicken Kiev  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:22:23pm

I hope it's not Tiananmen. I dearly hope not. It's just ... a huge autocratic government, a people denied their freedom, a popular protest, a massive horrific police force....

I don't want it to be Tiananmen.

39 Baier  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:22:27pm

re: #29 Sharmuta

I pray God will strengthen the resolve of the Iranian people to throw off their oppressors.

...and that out president has the wisdom and strength to help.

40 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:22:28pm

re: #24 Lawrence Schmerel

I wonder how long these protests will last. Not long I bet.

I'll take that bet.
Can you cover my monthly rent payment?

41 zombie  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:22:41pm

re: #7 Chicken Kiev

Tiananmen.

Actually, I think it's a good parallel. Of course the specifics are different, but this could go down in Iranian history as the people's uprising that was suppressed by the government, just as Tiananmen represents an uprising that was "put down."

42 jwb7605  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:22:42pm

re: #20 zombie

Obama could change the course of history if he came out right now and vigorously rejected the fraudulent election and threw his support behind the opposition/protesters. That would be the spark they need to ignite the counter-revolution -- the knowledge that the U.S. is behind them.

And when the new regime comes in, they likely will abandon their nuclear ambitions -- and the world will take a big step toward peace and stability.

But no. Obama is waffling and hesitating, voting "present" in the Iranian election. And his hesitation is going to have dire conseqeunces.


Everything I've read indicates that wouldn't happen.
Both candidates supported nuclear development, both condemn Israel.
This was more a "civil rights" issue among Iranians.

I'd like to be wrong about that.

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:23:00pm

OK, time for me to get out of here and do something useful.

God, I hope this all turns into something good.

44 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:23:01pm

re: #33 FurryOldGuyJeans

This is more shaping up to be the fall of the Soviet Empire. Khamenei tried his Islamic Perestroika and got bit big time.

Inshallah, habibi.

45 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:23:06pm

Winston just posted this in the last thread:

Graphic photo

46 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:23:12pm

[Link: twitter.com...]

A doctor in Hazrate Rasool hospital confirmed 7 people killed in Azadi sq.
47 ssn697  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:23:16pm

re: Chicken Kiev

I have that fear as well. Iran has a crapload of ground army. How many might turn against killing their own?

48 turn  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:23:25pm

For any of you that may have missed this last thread, a very telling example of the ruthlessness of the regime these brave folks are dealing with ...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

49 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:23:35pm

re: #36 yma o hyd

Thats exactly what I keep remembering ...

I hope and pray it doesn't turn out to be a second 1956!

The situations are vastly different.
There was no chance for the Uprising to succeed.
However slender, this one has a chance.

50 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:23:42pm
51 Buck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:23:44pm

re: flyovercountry

Didn't Jimmy Carter observe this election to make certain everything was Honky Dory. This level of violence sure seems like the people are suspecting of a sham. Not only did they not vote for this clown, they realize that nobody voted for this clown. Pandora's box is opening wider and wider.

I am pretty sure this is the one Muslim country he is not welcome in. He seems to do well with Arab Muslims, and not Iranian.... not sure why.

52 BatGuano  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:24:16pm

Telegram for President Obama!

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

53 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:24:22pm

re: #37 Occasional Reader

I hope it's more like Poland. Solidarity!

54 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:24:32pm

re: #42 jwb7605

Everything I've read indicates that wouldn't happen.
Both candidates supported nuclear development, both condemn Israel.
This was more a "civil rights" issue among Iranians.

I'd like to be wrong about that.

I doubt Mousavi is going to be put in power if this Second Iranian Revolution is not crushed by the Mullahs. He was put up by the Mullahs to pacify the masses by offering the thin veneer of "reform".

55 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:24:42pm

re: #41 zombie

Actually, I think it's a good parallel. Of course the specifics are different, but this could go down in Iranian history as the people's uprising that was suppressed by the government, just as Tiananmen represents an uprising that was "put down."

it can be DRASTICALLY different, Please see my 319. By the time the world new about Tiananmen it was really too late. The "world" (read EU ,, USA ,, even the UN) MUST not remain silent until after it's over with

56 anat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:24:44pm

Sky News have an excellent Twitter Feed

57 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:24:45pm

re: #42 jwb7605

Hi there!
How is/did the job search going/go?

58 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:24:52pm

re: #45 Silvergirl

This will come back to haunt the mullahs.

59 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:25:31pm

re: #53 Sharmuta

I hope it's more like Poland. Solidarity!

Erm... again, not a very cheering precedent. (Not the 1979-80 version, anyway.)

60 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:25:37pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

[Link: twitter.com...]

SHIT!

61 Mr Spiffy  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:25:53pm

re: #34 Diamond Bullet

Without being too flip, I feel compelled to point out that it may well be time for the Iraqi Information Minister to triumphantly come out of retirement.

"There are no protests in Freedom Square, no never."

"The supporters of Moussavi will never enter the capital. We have destroyed their tanks and shovels."

"They are nowhere near the airport, this is an illusion. They are not worth an old shoe."

"Who are you going to believe; me or your own lying eyes."

62 Baier  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:26:04pm

re: #41 zombie

Actually, I think it's a good parallel. Of course the specifics are different, but this could go down in Iranian history as the people's uprising that was suppressed by the government, just as Tiananmen represents an uprising that was "put down."

I think the international community blew it big time in China.
It's interesting, but this is the kind of revolution that Democrats don't support. That is to say, uprising. Obama's foreign policy seems to be regime change from the top-down, whereas Bush directly appealed to the people.

63 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:26:08pm

re: #51 Buck

I am pretty sure this is the one Muslim country he is not welcome in. He seems to do well with Arab Muslims, and not Iranian.... not sure why.

Might it have to do with the failed attempt to free the hostages? Some of the hostages swear that Dinner Jacket was one of the captors.

64 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:26:36pm

re: #55 sattv4u2

it can be DRASTICALLY different, Please see my 319. By the time the world new about Tiananmen it was really too late.

Are you sure about that? I seem to recall seeing news footage of the massacre from the get-go.

65 redc1c4  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:26:57pm

pro- government Basiji militia

FTFY...... nothing happens in Iran without government approval, at least until these protests started.

66 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:27:09pm

Video of a protester who was shot in the arm....

Youtube Video
67 Kragar  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:27:22pm

re: #47 ssn697

I have that fear as well. Iran has a crapload of ground army. How many might turn against killing their own?

Depends on how they are deployed. Given the tribal nature, I would suspect units probably are set up somewhat along those line. That way they can deploy forces from Region A against Region B and not have to worry about any sympathies from the troops against the locals.

68 Buck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:27:37pm

re: Killgore Trout

Video of a protester who was shot in the arm....

[Video]

Ahhhh it's only a flesh wound.

69 Spartacus50  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:27:44pm

re: #1 pegcity

does president UH UH have anything to say?

my great uncle helped liberate Auschwitz

70 Ojoe  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:27:51pm

The 2nd amendment keeps scenes like this from happening in the USA.

71 zombie  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:27:51pm

re: #42 jwb7605

Everything I've read indicates that wouldn't happen.
Both candidates supported nuclear development, both condemn Israel.
This was more a "civil rights" issue among Iranians.

I'd like to be wrong about that.

But most of the people voting for Mousavi also seem to want normal relations with the US and the West. They want it bad. And if we say: We give you normalized relations, on one condition: you shut down the centrifuges and stop the nuclear development program-- I bet they'd jump at the chance.

72 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:27:54pm

We no longer have a "Leader of the Free World."

73 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:28:04pm

Girl gets shot in Tehran

Youtube Video
74 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:28:11pm

If it were November 8/9, I'd be feeling a bit more optimistic, somehow.

I watched the Wall come down, sat up all night crying and toasting the Germans. All the while, I was waiting for the Soviets to send in the tanks.

75 JustABill  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:28:12pm

re: #51 Buck

I am pretty sure this is the one Muslim country he is not welcome in. He seems to do well with Arab Muslims, and not Iranian.... not sure why.

Are you missing a / there? Please remember the original Iranian revolution was on Carters watch and he just sat there with his thumb up his ass for the remainder of his term (444 days if memory serves) while the Iranian revolutionaries kept Americans hostage...

76 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:28:19pm

The best precedent I can think of: It's just like the popular revolution of November 2008, when the people rose up and threw out the oppressive Bush Regime.

/wait for it, the analogy's coming, courtesy of... oh, say, Kos

77 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:28:24pm

re: #51 Buck

I am pretty sure this is the one Muslim country he is not welcome in. He seems to do well with Arab Muslims, and not Iranian.... not sure why.

Might be due to the simple fact that Iranians are not Arab. Persia was a world class civilization, not some shit-hole tribal thugocracy.

78 zombie  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:28:31pm

re: #50 buzzsawmonkey

I suspect that the administration's plan was to mouth empty platitudes as Iran progressed its oppressive way towards nuclear capability, then use that nuclear capability as an assist to hammerlock Israel into ceding the entire West Bank and half of Jerusalem to the "Palestinians."

The popular uprising has caught the administration with its droopy hip-hop pants around its knees.

Interesting theory. I upding just for the interestingness of it.

79 turn  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:28:57pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

It's nice to see well wishes for the Iranian people instead of partisan cheap shots.

Can't we do both KT? zombie nailed it on No. 20, O need to get behind these people and do it NOW! The two viewpoints are interrelated.

80 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:29:17pm

re: #64 Occasional Reader

Are you sure about that? I seem to recall seeing news footage of the massacre from the get-go.

I'm just shy of 100% certain it was after the fact (not long ,, days perhaps) but again too late to "do" something. And the protest didn't last long at all

This is different. it's RIGHT NOW, and continuing. It is now almost midnight there. This started, when, Friday Night Eastern time (Saturday morning Iranian)

81 jwb7605  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:29:17pm

re: #57 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Hi there!
How is/did the job search going/go?

Semi fruitless.
I may have a lead this week.
In the meantime, I joined "LongsPeakNet", a networking group (there are lots of them in the area) for unemployed. Membership went from 18 in December to roughly 280 now. (hopenchange?)

I'm developing this site (Wordpress, learning new 'skills') for the group.

There's an existing site, but it's all flat HTML, unmaintainable for one guy to manage.

82 pink freud  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:29:25pm

re: #20 zombie

Obama could change the course of history if he came out right now and vigorously rejected the fraudulent election and threw his support behind the opposition/protesters. That would be the spark they need to ignite the counter-revolution -- the knowledge that the U.S. is behind them.

And when the new regime comes in, they likely will abandon their nuclear ambitions -- and the world will take a big step toward peace and stability.

But no. Obama is waffling and hesitating, voting "present" in the Iranian election. And his hesitation is going to have dire conseqeunces.

You forgot "it's because he's a narcissist"

/just ask flyer

83 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:29:43pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

Killgore, we've had our differences, but I would like to thank you for the yeoman work you're doing in providing updates on this matter.

84 Buck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:30:03pm

For those of you wanting to goad Obama into making a strong statement.... I am convinced he would only make it worse.

He should however be on the phone getting EVERY OTHER COUNTRY to make make a statement, get the UN to make a statement...

AND THEN, and only then, the "Great Satan" would not be seen as creating this mess...

85 Baier  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:30:06pm

re: #20 zombie

Obama could change the course of history if he came out right now and vigorously rejected the fraudulent election and threw his support behind the opposition/protesters. That would be the spark they need to ignite the counter-revolution -- the knowledge that the U.S. is behind them.

And when the new regime comes in, they likely will abandon their nuclear ambitions -- and the world will take a big step toward peace and stability.

But no. Obama is waffling and hesitating, voting "present" in the Iranian election. And his hesitation is going to have dire conseqeunces.

Bush would have. I have no doubt.

86 Ojoe  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:30:21pm

re: #72 Gus 802

Not in the White House.

There is a leader I am sure, but whoever it is, he or she is unknown right now.

87 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:30:31pm

Charles, any way you could put a twitter rss in one of the sidebars?

88 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:30:44pm

re: #49 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The situations are vastly different.
There was no chance for the Uprising to succeed.
However slender, this one has a chance.

Weellll .... there would have been a chance in Hungary in 1956 if (a very big one, i know!) the SU hadn't invaded. Thus - it was tanks against Molotov cocktails - and ruthless Kremlin dictators against normal people.

Here, today, in Teheran - it might (I hope not) still turn to tanks against people armed only with Molotov cocktails.
Ruthless Mullahs aside - tanks against unarmed people: tanks win.

89 dhg4  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:02pm

As noted in the comments to the previous post, The administration just re-assigned Dennis Ross.

In case there are any doubts as to why he was fired, the Washington Post reported last week, that he was in trouble for being to "pro-Israel."

Ross is undertaking this assignment amid questions in Washington about whether he has sufficient clout in the nascent Obama administration. And in the Middle East, many officials view him as too pro-Israel, raising concerns about whether he is the right person for the job of coaxing the Islamic Republic of Iran.

The article quotes a number of anonymous and a number of identified officials (including Flynt Leverette) to make the charge that Ross is too pro-Israel.

So the adminstration brings its "honest" talk to open a new dialogue with the Muslim world and then promptly backs down in the face of opposition from one of the most repressive regimes in the world.

90 poteen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:11pm

re: #13 Occasional Reader

Hopefully not. It's a lousy precedent, all around. I'm thinking: Bucharest, 1989.... hoping, thinking, something like that.


Budapest or Bucharest?
I think Tianenman is closer. It still causes the Chicoms trouble and may have helped bring about the changes that happened. The USSR had no problems putting down the 'errant' Hungarians.

91 jwb7605  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:21pm

re: #71 zombie

But most of the people voting for Mousavi also seem to want normal relations with the US and the West. They want it bad. And if we say: We give you normalized relations, on one condition: you shut down the centrifuges and stop the nuclear development program-- I bet they'd jump at the chance.

I've been led to believe they want better relations. Normal? Depends on your definition. The nuclear issue would be a serious hindrance.

92 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:27pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

re: #83 Occasional Reader

Killgore, we've had our differences, but I would like to thank you for the yeoman work you're doing in providing updates on this matter.

Couldn't have (but wished I did) say it better myself

93 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:27pm

Sigh. Recent links have been titled things like, man shot in head, girl shot, man shot in arm. And they seem to be coming faster and faster.

Is the violence escalating even as we speak?

94 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:31pm

re: #53 Sharmuta

I hope it's more like Poland. Solidarity!

Yes - good point!
Lets hope so!

95 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:32pm

re: #83 Occasional Reader

I've been spending way too much time watching this develop but I find it fascinating. A lot of lizards have really been doing a fantastic job covering this story from the very beginning.

96 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:33pm

re: lawhawk

Charles, any way you could put a twitter rss in one of the sidebars?

Haven't looked into that yet -- is there a Twitter feed that you recommend?

97 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:36pm

re: #58 rwdflynavy

This will come back to haunt the mullahs.

For that I will sincerely pray.

98 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:36pm

Again- this is not Tiananmen. The people are not centrally located in a Square where escape routes can be sealed- sitting there like fish in a barrel.

99 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:40pm

re: #85 Baier

Bush would have. I have no doubt.

I have no doubt whatsoever that McCain would have had a multitude of statements and policy outlines interated by now.

100 UncleSam  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:31:46pm

Obama won't say or do anything.
He's totally gutless.

101 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:32:31pm
102 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:32:33pm

re: #81 jwb7605

Best wishes!

103 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:33:26pm

re: #90 poteen

Budapest or Bucharest?

As noted above, I am HOPING it's a lot more like Bucharest (1989) than like Budapest (1956).

104 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:33:44pm

re: #89 dhg4

Very interesting, and predictable. Last week I asked how long Ross would have a job.

105 jwb7605  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:34:00pm

re: #102 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Best wishes!

Thank you!
I went to a seminar where it was strongly recommended we quit watching negative news, participating in contentious subject matter, etc.

Didn't change anything, so f*ck it. I'm back.

106 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:34:02pm

re: #92 sattv4u2

re: #83 Occasional Reader


Couldn't have (but wished I did) say it better myself

I just like using the word "yeoman".

107 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:34:12pm

re: #88 yma o hyd

Weellll .... there would have been a chance in Hungary in 1956 if (a very big one, i know!) the SU hadn't invaded. Thus - it was tanks against Molotov cocktails - and ruthless Kremlin dictators against normal people.

Here, today, in Teheran - it might (I hope not) still turn to tanks against people armed only with Molotov cocktails.
Ruthless Mullahs aside - tanks against unarmed people: tanks win.

Yes, tanks win ... but there's another set of tanks inside Iran, the regular Army.

108 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:34:12pm

re: #98 Sharmuta

Again- this is not Tiananmen. The people are not centrally located in a Square where escape routes can be sealed- sitting there like fish in a barrel.

Tiananmen was the epicenter in 1989, but there were other protests going on at the same time there. Tiananmen was just the place where photos/ videos happened to be taken,. IIRC, there was a western journalist satying across the square. Those are the images we saw days later

109 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:34:30pm

re: #101 buzzsawmonkey

Molotov cocktails enabled the fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto to hold out longer against the Germans than the Polish Army held out when it originally defended Warsaw from invasion.

The Polish Army extinguished itself in a useless gesture of 19th century bravado. Hussars and lancers charging tanks is romantic but foolish.

Put the same tanks in narrow alleys, leave horses out of it, try to stay alive long enough to kill the enemy, and things are different.

110 poteen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:35:02pm

Oops I read 1969. Need a bigger font.
The Romanians are a closer fit to this, without the Islamist component so central to the gov't

111 sattv4u2  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:35:03pm

re: #106 Occasional Reader

I just like using the word "yeoman".

I hear that all the time in the mall

Yo, Man !

Was Sup

112 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:35:16pm

re: #90 poteen

Budapest or Bucharest?
I think Tianenman is closer. It still causes the Chicoms trouble and may have helped bring about the changes that happened. The USSR had no problems putting down the 'errant' Hungarians.

And the US had no trouble abandoning them, either.

There is a level at which I think that any statement of support for the Iranian protesters would be the prelude to their betrayal. But that's my aching cynicism showing.

113 anat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:35:20pm

re: #96 Charles
Charles, can this help?

114 brookly red  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:35:27pm

re: #101 buzzsawmonkey

Molotov cocktails enabled the fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto to hold out longer against the Germans than the Polish Army held out when it originally defended Warsaw from invasion.

true, but the Army did have surrender as an option, the fighters not so much.

115 pink freud  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:35:28pm

re: #105 jwb7605

Thank you!
I went to a seminar where it was strongly recommended we quit watching negative news, participating in contentious subject matter, etc.

Didn't change anything, so f*ck it. I'm back.

LOL! Welcome back!

116 Baier  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:35:35pm

re: #96 Charles

Haven't looked into that yet -- is there a Twitter feed that you recommend?

Also, if you ever run out of things to do, a mobile version. Now I just use your RSS feed while I'm perambulating, which is not as good as the real deal, also you can serve ads on a mobile version.

117 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:35:37pm

re: #105 jwb7605

Thank you!
I went to a seminar where it was strongly recommended we quit watching negative news, participating in contentious subject matter, etc.

Didn't change anything, so f*ck it. I'm back.

I REJECT YOUR CONDEMNATION OF THIS CONTENTIOUS SUBJECT MATTER!
*muttermuttermutter*

/:D

118 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:35:58pm

re: #64 Occasional Reader

Are you sure about that? I seem to recall seeing news footage of the massacre from the get-go.

So do I. I remeber the tanks, and I *think* that I recall that in real-time. I do recall that there was quite a bit of confusion about what was happening in the evenings toward the end, but anybody with a sufficiently "nuanced" understanding of Communism knew exactly what was happening.

119 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:36:08pm

re: #111 sattv4u2

Indeed, if the economy keeps going the way it is, our teenage mall rat slackers of today may have to learn to become "Yo, man!" farmers.

120 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:36:17pm

re: #101 buzzsawmonkey

Molotov cocktails enabled the fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto to hold out longer against the Germans than the Polish Army held out when it originally defended Warsaw from invasion.

Hi BSM! IIRC, that was the theme of Leon Uris' "Mila 18" wasn't it? (Read it years ago, and remember loving it....probably need to read it again.)

121 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:36:26pm

re: #112 Dianna

And the US had no trouble abandoning them, either.

There is a level at which I think that any statement of support for the Iranian protesters would be the prelude to their betrayal. But that's my aching cynicism showing.

I think there's a nugget of truth in the fear that US support will used by the Islamists to whip up resistance against the "puppets of the Great Satan".

122 Ojoe  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:37:06pm

re: #109 OldLineTexan

They need sticky-backed shaped charges against tanks. The Brits developed these, or tried to, when they thought Germany would actually invade their island. "Sticky Bombs" they were called. Hand applied, and desperate to use.

123 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:37:13pm
124 winston06  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:37:27pm

where is Obama?

125 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:37:28pm

re: #118 haakondahl

So do I. I remeber the tanks, and I *think* that I recall that in real-time.

Yes, I recall them flying in the newsreel footage on the Pan Am Clipper from Siam!

/showing my age, possibly

126 brookly red  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:37:48pm

re: #121 OldLineTexan

I think there's a nugget of truth in the fear that US support will used by the Islamists to whip up resistance against the "puppets of the Great Satan".

a chance worth taking, no?

127 brucee  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:37:55pm
People are shouting "This Blood in my veins will stop the coup"

Three decades is a long time, apparently they forgot how Iran responded last time to openning fire.

128 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:37:57pm

re: #122 Ojoe

They need sticky-backed shaped charges against tanks. The Brits developed these, or tried to, when they thought Germany would actually invade their island. "Sticky Bombs" they were called. Hand applied, and desperate to use.

As featured in "Saving Private Ryan".

129 pink freud  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:38:01pm

re: #124 winston06

where is Obama?

Isn't Monday spa day?

130 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:38:03pm

re: #107 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes, tanks win ... but there's another set of tanks inside Iran, the regular Army.

True.

Frankly - there is no way we can predict today what is going to happen tomorrow, we don't know enough about the internal stresses in the Iranian army.

All I hope for is that these exceedingly brave men and women feel the force of change on their side and go on doing what they did today.

131 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:38:20pm

Wow, he really IS like George Bush!

//

132 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:38:20pm

I've been following Iran09. Seems fairly reliable, lot of links to videos and pic.

133 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:38:31pm

re: #95 Killgore Trout

A fascinating blog with pictures, some we have seen, some we haven't... [Link: shooresh1917.blogspot.com...]

134 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:38:41pm

re: #121 OldLineTexan

I think there's a nugget of truth in the fear that US support will used by the Islamists to whip up resistance against the "puppets of the Great Satan".

They'll trot that boogeyman out, anyway.

I'd rather be doing something.

135 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:38:45pm

re: #98 Sharmuta

Again- this is not Tiananmen. The people are not centrally located in a Square where escape routes can be sealed- sitting there like fish in a barrel.

For that we can be thankful!

However, it's hard for people not to have Tiananmen spring to mind. There are some parallels.

136 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:39:08pm

re: #124 winston06

where is Obama?

Probably smoking a cigaret and listening to jazz:

Streaming Now: The First Lady and the White House Jazz Studio
Posted by Jesse Lee

Today, the First Lady is kicking off the White House’s music series with a Jazz Studio where some of the jazz greats of tomorrow will get to meet some of the jazz greats of today. Over 140 students from around the country, including strong representation from New Orleans, will participate in Jazz education workshops to learn from and interact with some of the country’s best Jazz musicians.

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

That's the 1st lady. Have to check on the whereabouts of The One.

137 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:39:26pm

re: #74 Dianna

If it were November 8/9, I'd be feeling a bit more optimistic, somehow.

I watched the Wall come down, sat up all night crying and toasting the Germans. All the while, I was waiting for the Soviets to send in the tanks.

Amen.

138 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:39:27pm

re: #112 Dianna

And the US had no trouble abandoning them, either.

Hmm, again... tough call. Ivan had nukes.

139 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:39:28pm
140 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:39:31pm

re: #124 winston06

where is Obama?

Packaging up a set of 25 DVDs to send off as congrats to Dinnerjacket?

141 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:39:37pm

re: #126 brookly red

a chance worth taking, no?

I do not know.

I had Iranian friends in the US and in Iran in 1979 ... I worked with one guy that barely made it out of Tehran ... I worked with de facto exiles for years ... but I have no good idea of how much is too much, and how much is too little.

142 brookly red  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:39:58pm

re: #129 pink freud

Isn't Monday spa day?

no it's push health care scam day...

143 2senseplain  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:40:01pm

re: #41 zombie

The problem being the memory of Tienimen is being exhaustively erased in Chinese history. We remember outside of China but for how long?

144 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:40:03pm

re: #122 Ojoe

The Brits developed these

Wrong, they were invented by Tom Hanks. (I saw the movie.)

/

145 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:40:05pm

re: #121 OldLineTexan

I think there's a nugget of truth in the fear that US support will used by the Islamists to whip up resistance against the "puppets of the Great Satan".

Should this uprising be crushed by the Mullahs they won't need any truth to blame it on outside interference.

146 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:40:07pm

re: #136 Gus 802

He was in Chicago pontificating to the AMA.

147 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:40:14pm

Stratfor has a strongly dissenting view of what's happening in Iran:

Western Misconceptions Meet Iranian Reality

Americans and Europeans have been misreading Iran for 30 years. Even after the shah fell, the myth has survived that a mass movement of people exists demanding liberalization — a movement that if encouraged by the West eventually would form a majority and rule the country. We call this outlook “iPod liberalism,” the idea that anyone who listens to rock ‘n’ roll on an iPod, writes blogs and knows what it means to Twitter must be an enthusiastic supporter of Western liberalism. Even more significantly, this outlook fails to recognize that iPod owners represent a small minority in Iran — a country that is poor, pious and content on the whole with the revolution forged 30 years ago

...Ahmadinejad enjoys widespread popularity. He doesn’t speak to the issues that matter to the urban professionals, namely, the economy and liberalization. But Ahmadinejad speaks to three fundamental issues that accord with the rest of the country... Ahmadinejad speaks of piety, corruption, and security.

Perhaps the greatest factor in Ahmadinejad’s favor is that Mousavi spoke for the better districts of Tehran — something akin to running a U.S. presidential election as a spokesman for Georgetown and the Lower East Side. Such a base will get you hammered, and Mousavi got hammered. Fraud or not, Ahmadinejad won and he won significantly. That he won is not the mystery; the mystery is why others thought he wouldn’t win.

I don't know if this analysis is true or not. The fact that protests are occurring in cities across Iran suggests this is not simply a Tehran based opposition.

Certainly, hopes that a new political leadership would cut back on Iran’s nuclear program have been dashed. The champion of that program has won, in part because he championed the program. We still see Iran as far from developing a deliverable nuclear weapon, but certainly the Obama administration’s hopes that Ahmadinejad would either be replaced — or at least weakened and forced to be more conciliatory — have been crushed.

Yet, so far the Obama admin seems to think the reconciliation and negotiations can move ahead as if nothing happened. Wrong.

148 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:40:33pm

re: #138 Occasional Reader

Hmm, again... tough call. Ivan had nukes.

Well, we abandoned the Shia in Iraq, back in the day.

149 AZDave  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:40:46pm

re: #5 pingjockey

Hundreds of thousands of people risking life and limb.
Where's a statement Mr. President?

He's waiting for an okay from his Imam.

150 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:40:58pm

re: #124 winston06

where is Obama?

Present!

151 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:41:05pm

re: #139 buzzsawmonkey

Anybody want to send a DVD of "Spiderman" to the President? "With great power comes great responsibility."

Making decisions he still considers above his pay grade. He just wants to keep on campaigning for higher office.

152 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:41:08pm

re: #137 haakondahl

Amen.

I'm also wondering if there's a significant date for Iranians, of the same weight as November 8/9 in 20th Century German history.

153 poteen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:41:11pm

re: #112 Dianna

re: #124 winston06

where is Obama?

I hope he's in a briefing room somewhere looking for opportunities to damage the Islamic fundamentalist problem children.

154 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:41:16pm

re: #146 pingjockey

He was in Chicago pontificating to the AMA.

Really? Ah, OK. I forgot. He's such a Renascence man. /

Maybe he's presenting them with his cure for cancer. /

155 winston06  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:41:20pm

re: #149 AZDave

Rev. Wright?

156 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:41:27pm

re: #130 yma o hyd

True.

Frankly - there is no way we can predict today what is going to happen tomorrow, we don't know enough about the internal stresses in the Iranian army.

All I hope for is that these exceedingly brave men and women feel the force of change on their side and go on doing what they did today.

Yes, it's all up in the air at this point.

Even if the regime crushes this, it will live on.
It will, in that event, come back to haunt the mullahs.
They won't sleep easy at night.
They will HAVE to get more and more repressive.
Eventually, the lid will blow off the pressure cooker.

/one way or another, this is the beginning

157 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:41:46pm

re: #145 FurryOldGuyJeans

Should this uprising be crushed by the Mullahs they won't need any truth to blame it on outside interference.

Yes, whipping up resistance precedes crushing.

I don't think the mullahs have complete faith in the military, and I also think they fear to play the card. Having a foreign enemy to denounce may actually help them.

158 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:41:49pm

re: #146 pingjockey

He was in Chicago pontificating to the AMA.

More like lecturing, hectoring, and making unilateral demands.

159 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:41:59pm

High resolution pics

160 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:42:00pm

re: #124 winston06

where is Obama?

A: Obama is everywhere. Why? Because He loves us.

161 hazzyday  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:42:10pm

Pres Obama doesn't know what to do. This is an important event in world history. He has the weight of the free world on his shoulders. And as others have said he is voting "present". After the fact isn't going to count for a leader.

162 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:42:18pm

re: #13 Occasional Reader

Hopefully not. It's a lousy precedent, all around. I'm thinking: Bucharest, 1989.... hoping, thinking, something like that.

I thought about Romania all morning. The problem with that comparison is that the Romanian Regime was much more sclerotic and moribund that the current Iranian regime. Ceausescu had no oil & gas money to throw around. He had stagnated for decades until he had no one except a handful of KGB types to defend him.

163 zombie  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:42:19pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

I've been following Iran09. Seems fairly reliable, lot of links to videos and pic.


From that Twitter feed:

Pic of pro-government paramilitary thugs on motorcycles, wielding clubs

164 yochanan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:42:25pm

re: #45 Silvergirl

this is what islmo fascism looks like

165 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:42:34pm

re: #138 Occasional Reader

Hmm, again... tough call. Ivan had nukes.

I know, OR.

But Hungary happened as much because of a series of speeches Eisenhower gave as anything else.

Miserable business; I had some fascinating conversations with some Hungarians about it, and what they had to say wasn't repeatable once everyone was sober again.

166 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:42:40pm

Just occurred to me why PB0 is keeping shtum:
As former community leader, he can obviously not condone this - after all, none of these uprisings in the various cities of Iran are led by community leaders. That cannot be allowed!

/////////////////////////////

167 Ojoe  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:42:56pm

re: #156 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If you read Persepolis you will see that the author says "Everybody hates the 'beards'." Meaning the Mullahs.

168 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:43:03pm

re: #50 buzzsawmonkey

I suspect that the administration's plan was to mouth empty platitudes as Iran progressed its oppressive way towards nuclear capability, then use that nuclear capability as an assist to hammerlock Israel into ceding the entire West Bank and half of Jerusalem to the "Palestinians."

The popular uprising has caught the administration with its droopy hip-hope pants around its knees.

And then the administration would be trying to figure out what to do when the Arabs reject even that.

Also, FTFY on the kind of pants.

169 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:43:14pm

re: #160 Occasional Reader

OK, you are now officially frightening me.

/

170 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:43:35pm

re: #146 pingjockey

He was in Chicago pontificating to the AMA.

Hi ping! You know, there's been a great discussion among the lizards here as to whether or not Obama should have made a statement.

One thing he could have done is to announce that there were events of great concern happening in Iran, and he needed to cut short his visit to return to Washington. Nothing specific, just a simple statement.

I suppose even that would have been better than deafening silence.

171 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:43:52pm

re: #143 2senseplain

The problem being the memory of Tienimen is being exhaustively erased in Chinese history. We remember outside of China but for how long?

Not very long. We have forgotten WWII.

The veterans returned home knowing that the world-shaking events wouold never fade, and resolved to keep their horrific stories to themselves, to protect us from their experiences.
So we forgot.

172 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:43:57pm

re: #152 Dianna

I'm also wondering if there's a significant date for Iranians, of the same weight as November 8/9 in 20th Century German history.

Invention of beer? Introduction of lederhosen? (Pardon my ignorance)

173 winston06  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:44:25pm

How can any one expect the Iranian people to attack these goons?

[Link: www.iranpressnews.com...]

look at the pics

174 A.W.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:44:29pm

i believe it was kissinger who said during the iran-iraq war that he wished that somehow both sides would lose.

That's kind of how i felt about iran's election, and there is a real chance of it turning into an everyone loses scenario over there.

heh.

i said before that I was kind of ambivalent about the idea of replacing the current president, Amadnutjob, or however you spell it. sure, the guy is ratshit crazy, but that is actually useful. look at how cole has beclowned himself in all of this. the makes it very hard for a liberal determined to ignore iran's threat to do so without embarrassing themselves. and if we get instead a guy just as evil, but who does a better job hiding it, well, that isn't really an improvement, is it?

175 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:44:40pm

re: #146 pingjockey

He was in Chicago pontificating to the AMA.

On the taxpayers' dime. It was dead important he be there in person.

As President Barack Obama flies Monday to Chicago for a midday speech on health-care reform, the round trip on Air Force One will run about $236,000, according to government estimates of the operating costs for one of the top symbols, and perks, of the presidency.

But that does not include such expenses as Secret Service protection, motorcades and helicopter transports.

176 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:44:59pm

re: #20 zombie

Obama could change the course of history if he came out right now and vigorously rejected the fraudulent election and threw his support behind the opposition/protesters. That would be the spark they need to ignite the counter-revolution -- the knowledge that the U.S. is behind them.

And when the new regime comes in, they likely will abandon their nuclear ambitions -- and the world will take a big step toward peace and stability.

But no. Obama is waffling and hesitating, voting "present" in the Iranian election. And his hesitation is going to have dire conseqeunces.

You mean like the way the US was behind them when George Herbert Walker Bush & Cie. called on the Marsh Arabs in the south of Iraq and the Kurds in the north to rise up and overthrow Saddam Hussein after Gulf War I? And the way we then bravely sat back and moaned like bitches about liberty and freedom and our support is with you while those two groups and many others were systematically hunted down and slaughtered? And the best we could offer them, after it was too late, was no-fly zones?

That the kind of support you mean?

I bet the mullahs are just drooling for that to happen.

177 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:45:02pm

re: #163 zombie

From that Twitter feed:

Pic of pro-government paramilitary thugs on motorcycles, wielding clubs

I can think of a simple way to Ruin Their Whole Day. A couple, actually. One involves piano wire. The other, simple passenger automobiles.

178 Sunlight  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:45:14pm

re: #20 zombie

...

And when the new regime comes in, they likely will abandon their nuclear ambitions --

...

Why do you think Mousavi wants to do that? Did you read something somewhere that said that? I can't find anywhere that says he will have a different approach to nukes.

179 AZDave  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:45:29pm

re: #35 ssn697

I'm not one for saying a President needs to say this, or say that, but Obama NEEDS to get out in front, condemn the election farce, and take a damn stand.

All that from an empty suite?

180 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:45:29pm

re: #162 experiencedtraveller

I thought about Romania all morning. The problem with that comparison is that the Romanian Regime was much more sclerotic and moribund that the current Iranian regime. Ceausescu had no oil & gas money to throw around. He had stagnated for decades until he had no one except a handful of KGB types to defend him.

No oil and gas money?! Bessarabia?!

181 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:45:30pm

re: #163 zombie

zombie - wildly OT, but thought this might tickle you:

Boris Johnson, Mayor of London, today called the NuLab government 'a zombe government, a necrarchy'.

I put it in the spin-off links ...

182 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:45:40pm

re: #42 jwb7605

Everything I've read indicates that wouldn't happen.
Both candidates supported nuclear development, both condemn Israel.
This was more a "civil rights" issue among Iranians.

I'd like to be wrong about that.

They have to start somewhere.

183 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:45:43pm

re: #170 subsailor68
Yep. Something. This is just wrong. The mad mullahs are working on a bomb whose stated aim is to annihalate Israel and a popular uprising possibly happening. No definitive statement from the President.

184 Silvergirl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:45:44pm

re: #172 Occasional Reader

Invention of beer? Introduction of lederhosen? (Pardon my ignorance)

The wall.

185 KenJen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:45:48pm

Any word on what Israel is saying about this?

186 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:45:51pm

Winston, any word from Bam, Kahnuj, Sabzevaran, Iranshahr, Zabol?

187 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:46:05pm

re: #163 zombie

If you got to my #159 there's a pic of those same guys with pistols too.

188 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:46:16pm

re: #173 winston06

How can any one expect the Iranian people to attack these goons?

[Link: www.iranpressnews.com...]

look at the pics

Well, the guy on the bottom appears to be dumb enough to stick a loaded pistol in his pants waistband. That's a start, anyway.

189 winston06  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:46:21pm

re: #186 haakondahl

not yet. i have no idea

190 Ojoe  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:46:44pm

re: #183 pingjockey

History will not be kind to Obama.


IMNSHO

191 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:46:45pm

re: #177 Occasional Reader

Road spike strips.

192 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:47:19pm

re: #179 AZDave

All that from an empty suite?

He checked out already?

(Sorry, couldn't resist! I know it was just a quick typo.)

;-)

193 kayfromcarroll  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:47:28pm

Moussavi is the overwhelming choice of a people who believed their leaders when they were told it was a "free and democratic election".

I work with an American citizen who left Iran at the time of the 1979 uprising. Her cousin lives in Tehran. They spoke on the phone yesterday. Her cousin said the city reminds her of the unrest at the fall of the Shah. Outrage, fear, and a Proud defense of democratic ideals.

Tehran is a very cosmopolitan city and has memories of a free and educated society - preRevolution. The country has a median age of 27, due to the Iran/Iraq war and the fact that many adults fled the theocracy.

Women push the envelope when it comes to the hijab. You'll see many that wear the covering so far back on their hair, that it must be fastened with hairpins! More than 2/3 of the physicians are women. These women in the streets protesting alongside the men is not surprising to me at all.

194 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:47:50pm

re: #176 Cato the Elder
I really hope not. I was over there and we could've finished Madass off, but everyone saw the 'highway of death' and had a fit.

195 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:47:55pm

re: #172 Occasional Reader

Invention of beer? Introduction of lederhosen? (Pardon my ignorance)

Sigh.

November 9, 1919: Abdication of the Kaiser.

November 8/9 1923: Beerhall Putsch.

November 8/9 1938: Kristalnacht.

November 8/9 1988: Fall of the Berlin Wall.

There's a whole bunch I'm missing, but during the 20th Century, a lot of politically significant actions in Germany took place on November 8/9. I don't know why. I just take note.

196 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:48:11pm

re: #191 lawhawk

40 feet of rope across the road would do the trick too.

197 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:48:20pm

re: #163 zombie

From that Twitter feed:

Pic of pro-government paramilitary thugs on motorcycles, wielding clubs

Sheesh, several of those guys need to go on the Goon Weight Watchers program.

198 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:48:21pm

re: #172 Occasional Reader

Invention of beer? Introduction of lederhosen? (Pardon my ignorance)

Tearing down the Berlin Wall, IIRC.

199 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:48:36pm

re: #163 zombie

From that Twitter feed:

Pic of pro-government paramilitary thugs on motorcycles, wielding clubs

PersianKiwi is another one. Has slightly different news than Iran09

200 capitalist piglet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:48:36pm

re: #161 hazzyday

Pres Obama doesn't know what to do. This is an important event in world history. He has the weight of the free world on his shoulders. And as others have said he is voting "present". After the fact isn't going to count for a leader.

According to The New York Times, the president "did not even convene any high-level White House meetings or conference calls on Sunday".

Maybe one of the geniuses he has surrounded himself with will suggest to him that a meeting might be in order.

Or maybe he'll go shoot some hoops.

201 Hawaii69  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:48:56pm

re: #1 pegcity

does president UH UH have anything to say?

The best thing he can say is nothing, or to remain very ambiguous.

Strong statements of support for the protestors from the U.S. can only hurt them. The Iranian government can then easily justify crackdowns with claims that the protests are backed by foreign agitators and "CIA spies".

Whatever plays out in Iran, it needs to play out on its own.

202 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:48:59pm

re: #196 Killgore Trout
1/4" steel cable between light poles.

203 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:49:03pm

re: #191 lawhawk

Road spike strips.

Nice, but most people don't have those available. The stuff I mentioned can be readily procured.

204 AZDave  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:49:22pm

re: #51 Buck

I am pretty sure this is the one Muslim country he is not welcome in. He seems to do well with Arab Muslims, and not Iranian.... not sure why.

Follow the money.

205 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:49:37pm

PersianKiwi:

confirmed - homeowners in Rasht are giving refuge to people running from Baseej attacks. #Iranelection


RT @persiankiwi attacked in streets by mob on motorbikes with baton, firing guns into air, fire all over city roads closed #Iranelection

206 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:49:40pm

re: #198 FurryOldGuyJeans

Tearing down the Berlin Wall, IIRC.

Yes, but I think Dianna meant that the date already had significance for them, when that event happened. (Maybe I misunderstood.)

207 filetandrelease  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:49:53pm

I am dreaming of the regular army and the revolutionary guard going to toe to toe, with the guard coming out on top.....until the IAF flies in and hammers them to free the Iranian people forming a Jewish/Persian bond that for ever changes the complexion of the middle east.

Man, can I dream or what!.

208 alegrias  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:49:54pm

LIVE
Sen. Joe Lieberman on Fox News

Attaboy, patriotic ballsy Lieberman!

209 jwb7605  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:50:06pm

re: #185 KenJen

Any word on what Israel is saying about this?

This CNN article ... partly what I based my previous comments on. Israel doesn't think it would have made that much of a difference.

210 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:50:21pm

re: #121 OldLineTexan

I think there's a nugget of truth in the fear that US support will used by the Islamists to whip up resistance against the "puppets of the Great Satan".

How many of the people out protesting don't buy into the "blame America" rhetoric? There may actually be a change in ideology and they may actually be tired of being isolated and governed by people who oppress them.

211 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:50:28pm

re: #176 Cato the Elder

We've already mentioned the propensity of American administrations to call on people to rise and then betray them.

Moving on, try to keep up.

212 brookly red  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:50:30pm

re: #188 Occasional Reader

Well, the guy on the bottom appears to be dumb enough to stick a loaded pistol in his pants waistband. That's a start, anyway.

/ i didn't know it was loaded...

213 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:50:31pm

re: #202 pingjockey

1/4" steel cable between light poles.

We are now in the "dirty deeds, done dirt cheap" segment of the thread... gentlemen (and ladies), start your engines...

214 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:50:39pm

re: #208 alegrias

YO JOE!

215 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:50:43pm

re: #206 Occasional Reader

Yes, but I think Dianna meant that the date already had significance for them, when that event happened. (Maybe I misunderstood.)

You got it.

216 poteen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:51:01pm

re: #195 Dianna

Sigh.

November 9, 1919: Abdication of the Kaiser.

November 8/9 1923: Beerhall Putsch.

November 8/9 1938: Kristalnacht.

November 8/9 1988: Fall of the Berlin Wall.

There's a whole bunch I'm missing, but during the 20th Century, a lot of politically significant actions in Germany took place on November 8/9. I don't know why. I just take note.

Oktoberfest hangovers are a bitch

217 alegrias  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:51:06pm

LIVE
Sen. Lieberman says we're facing a dangerous regime, election reminds us the people of Iran are NOT FREE.

on Fox News

218 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:51:13pm

re: #199 reine.de.tout

PersianKiwi is another one. Has slightly different news than Iran09

re: #199 reine.de.tout

That's a good one too.

219 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:51:18pm

re: #176 Cato the Elder

You mean like the way the US was behind them when George Herbert Walker Bush & Cie. called on the Marsh Arabs in the south of Iraq and the Kurds in the north to rise up and overthrow Saddam Hussein after Gulf War I? And the way we then bravely sat back and moaned like bitches about liberty and freedom and our support is with you while those two groups and many others were systematically hunted down and slaughtered? And the best we could offer them, after it was too late, was no-fly zones?

That the kind of support you mean?

I bet the mullahs are just drooling for that to happen.

Disingenuous, Cato. It was people who sound like you do now who kept us from supporting them then.

220 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:51:38pm

he is trying to figure out how to take credit for it,
w/out having any responsibility for it.
he'll find a way to say it.
obamaspeak

221 Summer Seale  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:51:45pm

I think Obama really has to come in at this point and support the protesters - much as I may not trust Mousavi when it comes to the nuclear program. Perhaps, however, he had a change of heart from twenty and thirty years ago (as some of them have had in their older age - look up who some of the liberal reformers are these days).

However, Obama may not be in the position to be the first to come out from the West to do this. More than Obama, I think Europe has to come out first. If Obama comes out first, that may easily be used right away as ammunition by Ahmedinejad as being a "CIA sponsored protest", which carries a lot of weight in Iran as an accusation. However, if Europe comes out first (like yea right...I'm not holding my breath), then Obama would be more free to back them up as well without making it as easy an accusation as being a U.S. sponsored plot.

But somebody in the West has to stand up right now and do it. It really may not be our place to come out first, but it sure is our place to make amends in their eyes and back up whomever does. That would carry a lot of weight in a political arena in Iran if we are seen to finally "do the right thing" for them.

Perhaps that is what Obama is waiting for. I don't know. I do know, however, that time is fast running out.

222 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:51:45pm

re: #195 Dianna

but during the 20th Century, a lot of politically significant actions in Germany took place on November 8/9

The date roughly coincides with Oktoberfest hangovers finally wearing off?

(Just speculating)

223 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:51:55pm

re: #45 Silvergirl

Winston just posted this in the last thread:

Graphic photo

Give CNN credit where it's due; they broadcast this photo.

224 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:52:19pm

re: #194 pingjockey

I really hope not. I was over there and we could've finished Madass off, but everyone saw the 'highway of death' and had a fit.

And I was for going straight to Baghdad and finishing the job. What we did back then was like if we had gotten to the French-German border in WWII and stopped. "We've liberated France. The Russians are liberating Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe. What goes on inside German is their affair."

Inviting people to commit suicide because Washington supposedly had their backs was one of the shabbiest chapters in our history.

225 Buck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:52:20pm

re: #75 JustABill

Are you missing a / there? Please remember the original Iranian revolution was on Carters watch and he just sat there with his thumb up his ass for the remainder of his term (444 days if memory serves) while the Iranian revolutionaries kept Americans hostage...

Ya..... I thought the /sarc was really obvious.

Sorry.

226 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:52:39pm

World, meet Lever.

But is it big enough?

227 brookly red  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:52:39pm

re: #213 Occasional Reader

We are now in the "dirty deeds, done dirt cheap" segment of the thread... gentlemen (and ladies), start your engines...

pour petrol...

228 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:52:45pm

re: #216 poteen

Oktoberfest hangovers are a bitch

And someone with the nic poteen would know!

(Do ya pronounce it pa-cheen?)

;-)

229 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:52:57pm

re: #191 lawhawk

Road spike strips.

And the idiot driving won't be able to hit the broad side of barn from inside, either.

230 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:53:04pm

re: #176 Cato the Elder

Attitudes like you display is why we didn't support the Iraqis back then, so get stuffed.

231 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:53:15pm

Morons on Parade.


A troubling lack of pure evil
Where to find a refreshing dose of vileness in the Age of Obama?

Remember the good old days? When the air was thick like curdled paste and the days were long like sad, lonely sighs and evil -- sweet, dependable evil -- was like some sort of predatory perfume salesgirl and we were all trapped in the same apocalyptic department store?

It used to be so easy. Every day, every headline, every pronouncement or misunderestimation from Dubya brought a new opportunity for your colon to clench and your breath to turn sour and the universe's skin to crawl. A single glance at Karl Rove and you were instantly swarmed with visions of tiny worms eating through the flesh of a sweet little bunny until it turned black and rotten and Rick Santorum. You had but to utter the words "Trent Lott" in the presence of children and the screaming wouldn't subside for three straight days. Remember?

[snip]

Hell, we still have Monsanto, ConAgra, Halliburton, Exxon, Archer Daniels Midland, Yum! Brands, Wal-Mart, most of the coal industry, Tyson meats, Fox News and the everpresent Catholic church, plus a few dozen others who will happily stop at nothing to maintain their long-standing evil empires, no matter what that damnable do-gooder president says. Isn't that reassuring?


Iran
Korea
Zimbabwe
Venezuela
Cuba
etc.....

232 Buck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:53:22pm

re: #77 FurryOldGuyJeans

Might be due to the simple fact that Iranians are not Arab. Persia was a world class civilization, not some shit-hole tribal thugocracy.

Well, I know that. That is why I mention Arab muslims as separate from Iranian.

233 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:53:22pm

re: #212 brookly red

/ i didn't know it was loaded...

That thuggish Islamist enforcer may be about to become an Oppressed Iranian Woman.

234 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:53:36pm

Warning: Very graphic photo

235 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:53:39pm

re: #224 Cato the Elder
I have never figured that out. Then again I was an NCO, not a general or the Chaiman of the JCS.

236 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:53:46pm

re: #199 reine.de.tout

PersianKiwi is another one. Has slightly different news than Iran09

From his twitter:

'onfirmed - homeowners in Rasht are giving refuge to people running from Baseej attacks. #Iranelection'

That is amazing!
That shows that there is more to this uprising, across Iran, than just protest against the election fraud.

237 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:53:52pm

re: #216 poteen

Oktoberfest hangovers are a bitch

gmta

238 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:54:00pm

Weird.

I just looked at the high def photos.

Did you know that people actually bleed when shot in the leg, etc.

I think the Palis are the only ones that don't.

239 KenJen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:54:06pm

Hundreds of thousands of protesters and Mousavi only got 33 percent of the vote. Yeah right.

240 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:54:08pm

re: #219 haakondahl

Disingenuous, Cato. It was people who sound like you do now who kept us from supporting them then.

We were in a state of war. We lied to those people. Not the "peaceniks", the US government. Feh.

241 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:54:27pm

re: #236 yma o hyd

From his twitter:

'onfirmed - homeowners in Rasht are giving refuge to people running from Baseej attacks. #Iranelection'

That is amazing!
That shows that there is more to this uprising, across Iran, than just protest against the election fraud.

And recent:
Everywhere the city is under pressure - cars tooting, people running motorbikes in large groups, fires and people chanting #Iranelection

242 AZDave  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:54:28pm

re: #84 Buck

For those of you wanting to goad Obama into making a strong statement.... I am convinced he would only make it worse.

He should however be on the phone getting EVERY OTHER COUNTRY to make make a statement, get the UN to make a statement...

AND THEN, and only then, the "Great Satan" would not be seen as creating this mess...

Wow! A strongly worded letter from the UN. That'll sure set things straight.

243 winston06  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:54:29pm

re: #239 KenJen

Mousavi is another criminal of the 1980s.

244 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:54:31pm

re: #200 capitalist piglet

According to The New York Times, the president "did not even convene any high-level White House meetings or conference calls on Sunday".

Maybe one of the geniuses he has surrounded himself with will suggest to him that a meeting might be in order.

I have agreed with many others here, in saying that I don't know that there's any particular concrete action that Obama should be taking, other than perhaps covert actions that we shouldn't know about.

However, I'm increasingly starting to feel that, in light of the crucial importance of this week's events at what could be a major watershed moment in history, he should at least cancel his bullshit speaking engagements, meet intensely with his advisors, and at least show up on TV to make a ten minute address with some vague statement of support for democracy.

He's really building a strong case for the claim that he simply doesn't care at all about foreign policy, except to the extent that he can stand before an impressive backdrop and portray himself as above the ugliness of people's disagreements.

245 winston06  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:54:46pm

I am going to rest for a bit... too tired to continue

246 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:54:56pm

re: #196 Killgore Trout

40 feet of rope across the road would do the trick too.

But only once, and not as...um...definitively.

247 Hawaii69  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:55:02pm

....and, like it or not, the fact is that Ahmadinejad very well could have won the election legitimately.

His challenger really wasn't all that strong a candidate.

When Khatami dropped out, the reformists lost their best chance.

248 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:55:09pm

re: #224 Cato the Elder

And people who displayed the attitude you shove about is why we were forced to abandon people crying out for freedom.

249 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:55:25pm

re: #189 winston06

wow, hey Winston06,
good to see you.

250 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:55:26pm
Youtube Video

More protest video from Tehran.

251 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:55:29pm

Another rumour that Ahmadinejad is planning a fake assassination attempt for tomorrow...


FUNNY! RT: @memohi: NOTICE: a trusty friend called me and said A.N wants to play a fake terror for him self tomorrow! #iranelection
252 alegrias  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:55:59pm

"We don't accept the current regime"
We ought to dramatically increase funding for Radio Farda (:US radio) into Iran;
This regime is not an Iranian regime, it's an islamist regime

Joe Lieberman, live on Fox news

253 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:56:00pm

re: #176 Cato the Elder

So because we once fucked somebody over.
We should fuck everyone over.

Nice moral compass you have.

254 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:56:01pm

re: #180 Dianna

No oil and gas money?! Bessarabia?!

By 1989 those fields were practically inoperable. Another example of how communists can screw up the simplest of industries. :0

255 poteen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:56:02pm

re: #219 haakondahl

And GWB followed through with the Kurds 14 yrs. later. Better late than never.
Yer pony's lame Catore:

256 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:56:06pm

re: #245 winston06

I am going to rest for a bit... too tired to continue

{Winston}!

257 itellu3times  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:56:08pm

re: #176 Cato the Elder

Maybe we could do better.

Not that I'm advocating it, cuz I don't know who in Iran we'd want to support, I mean names and addresses, not to mention policies.

But in theory, we could do a heckuvalot better than GHWB did with the Iraqis in 1991, point granted a thousand percent.

258 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:56:08pm

One thing Twitter does very well is propagate unsubstantiated rumors...

259 KenJen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:56:19pm

re: #243 winston06

Mousavi is another criminal of the 1980s.

I've missed that. Where can I find info.

260 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:56:26pm

re: #246 Dianna

But only once, and not as...um...definitively.

You have a twisted assassin's mind.

I like that about you.

261 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:56:51pm

Late to the thread but the protesters seem to have missed the significance of the 'landslide' victory that Dinnerjacket won.....
///

262 alegrias  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:57:05pm

re: #224 Cato the Elder

And I was for going straight to Baghdad and finishing the job. What we did back then was like if we had gotten to the French-German border in WWII and stopped. "We've liberated France. The Russians are liberating Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe. What goes on inside German is their affair."

Inviting people to commit suicide because Washington supposedly had their backs was one of the shabbiest chapters in our history.

* * **
Colin Powell was too cowardly to finish off the Republican Guard of Saddam Hussein when he had them in his gunsights.

263 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:57:17pm

re: #42 jwb7605

Both candidates supported nuclear development, both condemn Israel.
This was more a "civil rights" issue among Iranians.

I'm digging up this comment from earlier in the thread, because I think it's an important point. Clearly, many urban Iranians are fed up with their government and want their vote to be counted. But let's not make the mistake of believing that the demonstrators are necessarily our friends. It's another reason, besides the fear of appearing to meddle, why the U.S. might refrain from taking any major actions at this point.

264 poteen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:57:21pm

re: #228 subsailor68

And someone with the nic poteen would know!

(Do ya pronounce it pa-cheen?)

;-)

As do the Leprechauns.

265 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:57:31pm

re: #248 FurryOldGuyJeans

Nonsense. The Kurds did die because of anything that was said or wasn't said. They died because lack of action. It just stupid to think some great proclamation by Obama is going to help anything. It would most likely hurt the protesters by making them look like they're part of a Western plot against the government.

266 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:57:39pm

re: #253 jcm

So because we once fucked somebody over.
We should fuck everyone over.

Nice moral compass you have.

Nice grasp of logic, you.

267 avanti  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:57:52pm

Nate Silver does a statistical analysis on the Iran vote and thinks he see something fishy.

Nate.

268 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:57:53pm

re: #222 Occasional Reader

What do you have against Oktoberfest?

269 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:01pm

re: #244 Last Mohican

Agreed. I was truly ready to give him the benefit of the doubt; but the apparent sheer disinterest, combined with the pathetic bleats of "whatever happens, we want to keep talking!", are not exactly placing Obama in the best light.

270 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:26pm

Hark, yon tall, robed, man standing on the Gulf shore, arms raised
With golden halo 'round his noble head.
Whereupon being by Them Teleprompted, He speaketh and
He raiseth up his chief staff bearers of stars and stripes,
And waveth flags above the seas,
Which causeth the waters of the Gulf to part.
He then Prompteth and delivereth twenty miles of wild-eyed mullahs,
And revolutionary guards, and hordes, all do march unto the seabed.
Whereupon being Prompeth He doth waveth, and lowereth his spent staff,
And the throng is taken down and covered by the falling waters...
And all is peaceful.

271 Sunlight  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:26pm

re: #258 Charles

One thing Twitter does very well is propagate unsubstantiated rumors...

Hard to tell what is happening and how it will trip up the mullahs, if at all. May be making cover to finish the final assembly.

272 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:35pm

re: #262 alegrias

* * **
Colin Powell was too cowardly to finish off the Republican Guard of Saddam Hussein when he had them in his gunsights.

If I recall correctly, Colin Powell was not the CiC.

273 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:40pm

re: #258 Charles

One thing Twitter does very well is propagate unsubstantiated rumors...

AHMANDINEJAD HAS NEVER PRODUCED HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE!

/pass it on

274 jwb7605  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:41pm

re: #258 Charles

One thing Twitter does very well is propagate unsubstantiated rumors...

A couple other sites (Hugh Hewitt, Hot Air, Pajamas Media) issued the same sentiments. (You just might be on to something ... :-) Apparently the "comments are unmoderated".

275 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:42pm

re: #241 reine.de.tout

And recent:
Everywhere the city is under pressure - cars tooting, people running motorbikes in large groups, fires and people chanting #Iranelection

Also, they are doing their best to circumvent the security forces:

'WE NEED NEWPROXY but plz do not announce them in public, @ me and i will add for DM'

[Link: twitter.com...]

276 solomonpanting  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:47pm

I don't know if this has been memtioned yet, but Michael Ledeen says that the pro-Mullah guards on the streets of Tehran have been heard to speak Arabic, not Farsi, which he interprets to mean they are Hezbollah or Lebanese, since the mullahs don't trust their own citizens.

277 itellu3times  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:49pm

re: #231 jcm

Morons on Parade.

Where is the diversity?

Right now we have a mono-culture of morons in the MSM.

278 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:50pm

re: #251 Kenneth
Wow...If only that could go arye and work!
I think an ass.... will be coming.........
I'll loose no sleep over it!
Not cordoning....Just sleeping well!

279 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:51pm

re: #258 Charles

by definition, twitter is a rumor mill.

280 BatGuano  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:58:57pm

Joe Lieberman should just join the Republican party: We could use the added backbone.

281 Land Shark  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:59:04pm

re: #29 Sharmuta

I pray God will strengthen the resolve of the Iranian people to throw off their oppressors.

From your mouth to God's ears. And since the Mullah Regime will use any and all methods to crush the opposition, they will need every bit of resolve they can muster and then some. Their odds of success are long indeed.

282 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:59:07pm

re: #219 haakondahl

Disingenuous, Cato. It was people who sound like you do now who kept us from supporting them then.

Why Dianna will not vote for Colin Powell. Why Dianna did not vote to re-elect Bush 41. Why Dianna had extreme doubts about Bush 43.

Why Dianna damn near did leave the country. I was screaming furious about it.

283 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:59:24pm

re: #268 Kenneth

What do you have against Oktoberfest?

Are you ready to putsch your money where your mouth is?

284 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:59:43pm

re: #245 winston06

I am going to rest for a bit... too tired to continue

Do have a good rest, {winston} - and thanks for all you have done!

285 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 12:59:57pm

re: #258 Charles

One thing Twitter does very well is propagate unsubstantiated rumors...

Well, yes. But - if this really is turning into a revolution - that's about all we'll have for a while.

286 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:00:08pm

re: #258 Charles

One thing Twitter does very well is propagate unsubstantiated rumors...

But are they better at it than CBS?

287 right_on_target  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:00:17pm

re: #226 CyanSnowHawk

World, meet Lever.

But is it big enough?


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Look at the flag, they're Arm-In-Dinner-Jacket supporters

288 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:00:24pm

PersianKiwi:
Gohardasht in Karaj - confirmed - people in street batles with militia - #Iranelection

289 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:00:29pm

re: #279 Kenneth

In this case I don't mind it. I don't expect everything on there to be accurate but it does give a pretty good idea of what to expect. The links to video and pics are worth it.

290 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:00:38pm

re: #265 Killgore Trout

Saying NOTHING doesn't accomplish a thing either, except to show the fecklessness of the administration.

291 FrogMarch  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:00:48pm

Wasn't the "opposition" leader picked my the Mullahs as well?

292 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:01:02pm

re: #258 Charles

One thing Twitter does very well is propagate unsubstantiated rumors...

Yep - thats why it would be wise to follow several twitters, not just the one.

293 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:01:10pm

AHMADINEJAD IS A SEKRIT NON-MUZLIM!

/pass it on

294 JustABill  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:01:12pm

re: #207 filetandrelease

I am dreaming of the regular army and the revolutionary guard going to toe to toe, with the guard coming out on top.....until the IAF flies in and hammers them to free the Iranian people forming a Jewish/Persian bond that for ever changes the complexion of the middle east.

Man, can I dream or what!.

Whatever your smoking, stop...

295 Sunlight  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:01:17pm

I hope Israel keeps their eye on the ball, and isn't distracted by the drama of it all.

296 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:01:29pm

re: #260 Occasional Reader

You have a twisted assassin's mind.

I like that about you.

I long ago decided that if I ever had to fight, I was going to do it sneakily. I'm a little woman, I have terrible eyesight, and I can't run worth beans. But I can - and will - put my brain up against most other folks.

297 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:01:48pm

re: #291 FrogMarch

Wasn't the "opposition" leader picked my the Mullahs as well?


For the last time, He is not Muslim!

298 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:01:48pm

StopAhmadi:

NEWS: CONFIRMED Basiji central building put on fire today by ppl #iranelection

I think we knew this already.

299 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:01:57pm

re: #291 FrogMarch
Yep. IMO, this 'uprising' isn't about the oppostion, but about the whole mad mullah regime.

300 alegrias  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:01:59pm

re: #291 FrogMarch

Wasn't the "opposition" leader picked my the Mullahs as well?

* * * *
Yes, these are sham elections in a POLICE islamist STATE. Lose-lose for Iranians who want freedom from thugocracy.

301 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:02:15pm

re: #290 FurryOldGuyJeans

I know a lot of people are working really hard to twist this into some sort of massive Obama failure. The right wing blogs are full of this crap. I'm more interested in what's actually happening and wishing the best for the Iranian people. Carry on.

302 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:02:21pm

re: #245 winston06

I am going to rest for a bit... too tired to continue

Good - you can't help if you're incoherent.

303 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:02:52pm

re: #293 Occasional Reader

AHMADINEJAD IS A SEKRIT NON-MUZLIM!

/pass it on

I hear he is so short, that his forehead can't hit the ground during prayers.

304 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:02:54pm

re: #276 solomonpanting

I don't know if this has been memtioned yet, but Michael Ledeen says that the pro-Mullah guards on the streets of Tehran have been heard to speak Arabic, not Farsi, which he interprets to mean they are Hezbollah or Lebanese, since the mullahs don't trust their own citizens.

Thanks for bringing this up. As I've mentioned a few times, I've heard first-hand accounts from Iranians of Hizbollah thugs being brought in to kill Iranians who speak up against the government. In the past, I mean. A lot of Iranians don't like it one bit.

305 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:03:04pm

re: #289 Killgore Trout

In this case I don't mind it. I don't expect everything on there to be accurate but it does give a pretty good idea of what to expect. The links to video and pics are worth it.

And it seems that's the only way most of the news is getting out.

306 JustABill  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:03:24pm

re: #225 Buck

Ya..... I thought the /sarc was really obvious.

Sorry.

no problem. I thougth you might have been young enough not to remember. Its my first political memory...

307 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:03:32pm

re: #296 Dianna

I long ago decided that if I ever had to fight, I was going to do it sneakily. I'm a little woman, I have terrible eyesight, and I can't run worth beans. But I can - and will - put my brain up against most other folks.

I do seem to recall the phrase "palm-sized groups at 25 yards"...

308 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:03:36pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

The only failure is for not standing up for human dignity, human rights, and freedom.

309 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:03:36pm

re: #267 avanti

Nate Silver does a statistical analysis on the Iran vote and thinks he see something fishy.

Nate.

Excellent post. I'd like to see more of that kind of analysis. In fact, I'm about to present some of my own. Not about Iran... more to follow...

310 alegrias  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:03:40pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

I know a lot of people are working really hard to twist this into some sort of massive Obama failure. The right wing blogs are full of this crap. I'm more interested in what's actually happening and wishing the best for the Iranian people. Carry on.

* * *
As if you don't already know what happens in Iran's Republic of Fear.
You are disingenuous.

311 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:04:02pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout
I wouldn't call it a failure. I'm just disappointed he hasn't come out with a statement supporting the Iranian people in their quest for free and fair elections. That wasn't so hard was it?

312 capitalist piglet  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:04:07pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

I know a lot of people are working really hard to twist this into some sort of massive Obama failure. The right wing blogs are full of this crap. I'm more interested in what's actually happening and wishing the best for the Iranian people. Carry on.

Obama is beyond criticism, of course. Carry on.

313 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:04:12pm

re: #240 Cato the Elder

We were in a state of war. We lied to those people. Not the "peaceniks", the US government. Feh.

As I said, we covered that.

Try to keep up.

314 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:04:14pm
315 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:04:15pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

I know a lot of people are working really hard to twist this into some sort of massive Obama failure. The right wing blogs are full of this crap. I'm more interested in what's actually happening and wishing the best for the Iranian people. Carry on.

I agree.

The One will not, and probably should not speak until this pans out a little more.

He will continue to do what Clinton and Bush did.

Say that we will not negotiate, contact, whatever, etc, and let the Europeans do the talking.

We are seeing this with Germany.

316 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:04:25pm

re: #272 Cato the Elder

If I recall correctly, Colin Powell was not the CiC.

During the First Gulf War, Colin Powell was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. That position acts in an advisory capacity to the POTUS and as such is entirely outside the chain of command of US forces. The chain of command would have been POTUS Bush Sr. as CiC (as you noted), Sec Def Dick Cheney, and then the Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Central Command, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf.

317 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:04:32pm

Well, Ahmedinejihad has cancelled a scheduled trip to Russia; apparently, he fears that if he leaves the country now, things will rapidly change there, and he will not be permitted back in.

318 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:04:58pm

re: #296 Dianna

I long ago decided that if I ever had to fight, I was going to do it sneakily. I'm a little woman, I have terrible eyesight, and I can't run worth beans. But I can - and will - put my brain up against most other folks.

If it comes to picking people for my side in a fight, I'll take you first. Then TFK. Then, if I still have enough ammo to pass out, Iron Fist. The rest of you can bring your own guns.

319 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:05:04pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

I know a lot of people are working really hard to twist this into some sort of massive Obama failure. The right wing blogs are full of this crap. I'm more interested in what's actually happening and wishing the best for the Iranian people. Carry on.

We're actually able to walk and chew gum and the same time, you see. I'm interested in what's happening, and I'm interested in what our elected representatives are doing about it.

320 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:05:05pm

re: #283 Occasional Reader

Oh yes.

321 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:05:20pm

re: #304 Last Mohican

Thanks for bringing this up. As I've mentioned a few times, I've heard first-hand accounts from Iranians of Hizbollah thugs being brought in to kill Iranians who speak up against the government. In the past, I mean. A lot of Iranians don't like it one bit.


I'm sure the ISraelis are on alert, just in case Hizballah is ordered to create some sort of diversion/distraction.

322 alegrias  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:05:21pm

re: #311 pingjockey

I wouldn't call it a failure. I'm just disappointed he hasn't come out with a statement supporting the Iranian people in their quest for free and fair elections. That wasn't so hard was it?

* * * *
Pres. Obama is busy talking about his coup de etat on healthcare, to fight this crisis. MUCH more important than millions of Iranians trying to topple the world's most terrorist promoting regime.

323 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:05:59pm

re: #305 reine.de.tout

And it seems that's the only way most of the news is getting out.

Its also getting out much faster than any MFM can get it out - and we're spared the ponderous comments and thoughts about what it all means, by those talking heads.

Lets not forget that they also only get their 'news' from such sources, i.e. people!

324 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:06:09pm

re: #317 Salamantis

Well, Ahmedinejihad has cancelled a scheduled trip to Russia; apparently, he fears that if he leaves the country now, things will rapidly change there, and he will not be permitted back in.

I heard that this morning. Very interesting, indeed. He's scared. That's good.

325 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:06:17pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

I know a lot of people are working really hard to twist this into some sort of massive Obama failure. The right wing blogs are full of this crap. I'm more interested in what's actually happening and wishing the best for the Iranian people. Carry on.

The only thing which ultimately matters is what happens over there.
It is up to the Iranian people now.
We can but hold our hearts in our hands and pray.

326 FrogMarch  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:06:34pm

re: #299 pingjockey

Yep. IMO, this 'uprising' isn't about the oppostion, but about the whole mad mullah regime.

yes. but it seems our media is confused. They keep saying it's all shades of 2000 Gove V Bush and that Ahmadinejad is Bush.

327 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:06:36pm

re: #320 Kenneth

Oh yes.

Seems to me more like you're willing to put your mouth where... ahh, never mind.

328 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:06:43pm

PersianKiwi:
large number of plain clothes with bikes hiding in military barraks off Pasdaran - dont know what they are planning - #Iranelection

329 filetandrelease  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:06:47pm

re: #265 Killgore Trout

Nonsense. The Kurds did die because of anything that was said or wasn't said. They died because lack of action. It just stupid to think some great proclamation by Obama is going to help anything. It would most likely hurt the protesters by making them look like they're part of a Western plot against the government.

That seems most likely, but something in my gut warns me the "O" may be silent because he is not sure that supporting the revolutionarys is the right thing to do.

330 Buck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:06:55pm

re: #306 JustABill

no problem. I thougth you might have been young enough not to remember. Its my first political memory...

Well, thank you, but I am 49 years old. I remember the Iranian Hostage Crisis like it was yesterday.

Fro example, I remember how the Egyptians seemed to be the Shah's only friend at the end.

331 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:07:16pm

re: #318 Cato the Elder

If it comes to picking people for my side in a fight, I'll take you first. Then TFK. Then, if I still have enough ammo to pass out, Iron Fist. The rest of you can bring your own guns.

I have plenty thanks,,
But an invite would have been nice........
Just sayin!

332 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:07:25pm

re: #326 FrogMarch
Ah, gotcha. Of course the media is confused, they're idiots.

333 SummerSong  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:07:29pm

re: #133 MrPaulRevere

A fascinating blog with pictures, some we have seen, some we haven't... [Link: shooresh1917.blogspot.com...]

I found that blog on saturday and have been following along. It does have many fascinating and disturbing images.

334 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:07:30pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

No, I think people are genuinely concerned that Obama hasn't popped up to actually make a statement on the situation in Iran, and instead is letting silence fill the airwaves. We hashed this out down below that there are ways to make a statement that threads the line between overt support of the protesters, that could conceivably undermine their legitimacy or aid Ahmadinejad's ability to demonize them by claiming they are the work of outside forces like the US, and maintaining a neutral tone that does in fact offer support for protests while highlighting the violence by the regime against the protesters.

Obama needs to make some kind of a statement, because that's what the leader of the free world is supposed to do in this kind of situation.

335 KenJen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:07:39pm

re: #311 pingjockey

I wouldn't call it a failure. I'm just disappointed he hasn't come out with a statement supporting the Iranian people in their quest for free and fair elections. That wasn't so hard was it?

He's probably looking at past polling data to gauge where Americans and the world stand on the issue before his advisors write a speech for him.

336 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:07:42pm

re: #314 buzzsawmonkey

At the same time, it does not seem acceptable for the administration to be entirely silent

It's been a little worse than "entirely silent". "We will talk with whoever wins, no matter how!" Feh.

337 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:07:56pm

re: #317 Salamantis

Well, Ahmedinejihad has cancelled a scheduled trip to Russia; apparently, he fears that if he leaves the country now, things will rapidly change there, and he will not be permitted back in.

I heard he said that during a conversation with Jimmy Carter, who replied, "Oh crap, excuse me, gotta run."

;-)

338 see bs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:08:03pm

re: #258 Charles

Agreed. Little OT but look how the MMM spat upon blogs about not being credible, and yet those same people now "Tweet" (fyi..I hate that word) with unconfirmed news, rumors..etc.

339 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:08:08pm

re: #311 pingjockey

I wouldn't call it a failure. I'm just disappointed he hasn't come out with a statement supporting the Iranian people in their quest for free and fair elections. That wasn't so hard was it?

The was I see it, any little criticism is seen as a call for "failure" by the left. Even questioning his silence on this matter is seen as such. They are quick to generalize and make assumptions.

340 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:08:13pm

re: #328 reine.de.tout

PersianKiwi:
large number of plain clothes with bikes hiding in military barraks off Pasdaran - dont know what they are planning - #Iranelection

Poorly-timed "Critical Mass" event?

//

341 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:08:19pm

re: #328 reine.de.tout

PersianKiwi:
large number of plain clothes with bikes hiding in military barraks off Pasdaran - dont know what they are planning - #Iranelection

continued:
pedestrians avoid military baraks off Pasdaran St - something is going to happen from there - #Iranelection

342 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:08:30pm

re: #320 Kenneth

Oh yes.

I love the Feast of St. Pauli-Girl.

343 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:08:32pm

re: #291 FrogMarch

Wasn't the "opposition" leader picked my the Mullahs as well?

Why, yes. Yes, he was.

But - if this is a revolution - that doesn't matter. Momentum is an interesting thing.

344 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:08:44pm

IranElection09 makes a plea:
BBC & CNN, PLEASE publish information on nationwide strike planned for tomorrow Tuesday throughout all of Iran #iranelectio

345 AZDave  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:08:47pm

re: #192 subsailor68

He checked out already?

(Sorry, couldn't resist! I know it was just a quick typo.)

;-)

True in both cases!?

346 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:08:54pm

re: #331 reloadingisnotahobby

I have plenty thanks,,
But an invite would have been nice........
Just sayin!

Sorry, didn't see you until just now.

Guess I'll have to set up a recruiting office.

347 Buck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:08:57pm

Any statement made by Obama now, would only allow the Mullahs to call the protesters "Agents of the Great Satan".

348 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:09:28pm

re: #321 Ben Hur

I'm sure the ISraelis are on alert, just in case Hizballah is ordered to create some sort of diversion/distraction.

My first thought was that things might get quieter in Israel for a while, as Hizbollah is called back to massacre the domestic population rather than killing Jews for a change.

But on second thought, you're right, nothing rallies support in the Muslim world like beating up on some Jews. I'm thinking of Saddam Hussein's launching Scuds at Israel during the first Gulf war, even though Israel had nothing to do with anything that was going on.

349 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:09:50pm

re: #346 Cato the Elder

Sorry, didn't see you until just now.

Guess I'll have to set up a recruiting office.

Yep.

350 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:09:50pm

re: #347 Buck

Any statement made by Obama now, would only allow the Mullahs to call the protesters "Agents of the Great Satan".

They can say that regardless. Truth is not needed.

351 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:09:51pm

re: #321 Ben Hur

I'm sure the ISraelis are on alert, just in case Hizballah is ordered to create some sort of diversion/distraction.

Try Twelver-minded chaos-creation, coming out of Iran.

352 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:10:10pm

this really is one of the 3a.m. calls that hillary was talking abt during the election.
o is not answering the phone. as totus he has a responsibility to address this situation.
soon, it is going to start looking really weird if he just keeps letting the phone ring and ring and ring. . .

353 Buck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:10:15pm

re: #258 Charles

One thing Twitter does very well is propagate unsubstantiated rumors...

Sure AND they do it in 140 characters or less.

354 Glaucon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:10:23pm

I miss Reagan.

355 Equable  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:10:27pm

One quote from a protestor at one of the sites of unrest:

"“DO NOT FORGET US WE DIE TODAY FOR FREEDOM WE WONT GIVE UP JUST HELP US!....goodbye #iranelection”

356 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:10:33pm

re: #348 Last Mohican
That's an evil thought and probably in the works as we speak.

357 Equable  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:10:54pm

Forgot to add... I'll never in my life forget this day. It's like the polar opposite of the 1979 revolution.

358 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:10:59pm

re: #307 Occasional Reader

I do seem to recall the phrase "palm-sized groups at 25 yards"...

Yeah - but I got a lesson from RevoBob about that. He took me to a "steel challenge"; I found that there's a major, major difference between the range and actual movement shooting. And that my stance is all wrong. And that I'm probably using a gun too heavy for me (if I have to do something besides stand quietly and shoot). And that I'm an idiot.

I am currently re-assessing.

No, I am not enjoying it.

359 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:11:31pm

re: #354 Glaucon

I miss Reagan.

I don't miss the Reagan who turned tail and pulled us out of Lebanon after our embassy and the Marine Barracks were truckbombed.

360 right_on_target  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:11:40pm

re: #323 yma o hyd

Its also getting out much faster than any MFM can get it out - and we're spared the ponderous comments and thoughts about what it all means, by those talking heads.

Lets not forget that they also only get their 'news' from such sources, i.e. people!


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What I wonder is that some Twitter images also are on AP's images. Who had it first? AP has their stamp on their images yet can it be that they were lifted from independent sources?

361 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:12:05pm
362 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:12:06pm

Buncha damned Eeyores around here. I guess one more programming exercise for our host could be an IGNORE USER button.

363 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:12:48pm

re: #358 Dianna

I am currently re-assessing.

Coinkidink. I'm taking a course right now, and am rather stunned at some of the the bad habits I'd learned.

364 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:13:30pm

re: #360 right_on_target

++++++++++ ++++++++++ ++++++++++ ++++++
What I wonder is that some Twitter images also are on AP's images. Who had it first? AP has their stamp on their images yet can it be that they were lifted from independent sources?

That would not surprise me at all!
On the other hand - if the twitters can sell the pics to AP and get some cash for what they need - good for them!

365 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:13:34pm

Well all, must go. I hope everyone here has a wonderful evening.

366 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:13:45pm

re: #358 Dianna

a gun too heavy for me

If you're gonna give up the Thompson, CAN I HAVE IT?!?!?!

/pretty please?!?!

367 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:13:47pm

re: #315 Ben Hur

I agree.

The One will not, and probably should not speak until this pans out a little more.

He will continue to do what Clinton and Bush did.

Say that we will not negotiate, contact, whatever, etc, and let the Europeans do the talking.

We are seeing this with Germany.

The One should speak in support of freedom and legitimate elections.

Waiting shows he doesn't.

368 JHW  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:13:49pm

I don't know if there'd be any strange significance in hearing Arabic speakers there, Iran has a fairly significant Arab minority population.
Iranian Arabs Wiki
Several sources note they are a persecuted minority so they probably don't have much sympathy for the current regime. They are also Sunni.
Ahwazi Arabs: Iran's Forgotten Ethnocide

369 KenJen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:14:09pm

It should be so simple for Obama. Do you support the people of Iran's right to fair elections and desire for freedom or do you support Dinnerjacket and the Mullahs who want to develop nukes to kill Americans and Israelis? Just come out and say it.

370 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:14:23pm

re: #334 lawhawk
Also good points.

371 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:14:46pm

Testing iPhone posting...

372 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:14:55pm

re: #318 Cato the Elder

If it comes to picking people for my side in a fight, I'll take you first. Then TFK. Then, if I still have enough ammo to pass out, Iron Fist. The rest of you can bring your own guns.

Get TFK first. He's sneakier and has experience.

373 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:15:02pm

re: #367 jcm

The One should speak in support of freedom and legitimate elections.

Waiting shows he doesn't.

The longer he waits to say anything will further invalidate what he does say eventually.

374 FrogMarch  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:15:02pm

Obama in his own words said the other day -right before the elections in Iran - that he had hopes for "change" (there's that word again) and that his hope was that the Cairo speech would act as a motivator.

Obama didn't necessarily fail; his naive narcissistic empty rhetoric just didn't get him anywhere with the Mullahs.

375 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:15:19pm

re: #358 Dianna

a gun too heavy for me (if I have to do something besides stand quietly and shoot)

Say it ain't so... you're insufficiently limber with Kimber?

376 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:15:39pm

OT ... but ... remember Senator dick durban, who likened our soldiers in iraq to nazis?

[Link: www.suntimes.com...]

nancy pelosi had no comment on the democratic party's "Culture of Corruption."

377 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:15:52pm
378 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:16:22pm

re: #358 Dianna

Yeah - but I got a lesson from RevoBob about that. He took me to a "steel challenge"; I found that there's a major, major difference between the range and actual movement shooting. And that my stance is all wrong. And that I'm probably using a gun too heavy for me (if I have to do something besides stand quietly and shoot). And that I'm an idiot.

I am currently re-assessing.

No, I am not enjoying it.

My plan of hiding behind a tree will still work?

379 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:16:24pm

re: #335 KenJen

He's probably looking at past polling data to gauge where Americans and the world stand on the issue before his advisors write a speech for him.

I don't feel any great need to blame Obama for his current inactivity. He has already actively screwed up the Iran issue so badly that his passivity now is just a drop in the bucket.

Still, I'm wondering more and more why he can't at least say a few words at a podium somewhere. I think it's because there's no way he can do that and look good in the process. His schtick is to be above it all, to offer empty yet sometimes inspiring platitudes about people reaching out, joining hands, overcoming the anger of the past by mere force of hope. He's not about reaching down into the muck, getting dirty, thinking about the real problems that face the world and how to solve them.

Blood is pouring out in the streets of Tehran. There's no way to talk about that and sound like you're above it all, and everything is just going to work out fine.

380 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:16:33pm

re: #367 jcm

The One should speak in support of freedom and legitimate elections.

Waiting shows he doesn't.

I think he's stuck in "I'm the anti-Bush" mode and thinks that if he speaks, he loses the love.

381 FrogMarch  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:16:38pm

re: #343 Dianna

Why, yes. Yes, he was.

But - if this is a revolution - that doesn't matter. Momentum is an interesting thing.

If there were any way to scrap the Mullahs - that would be a revolution. Until then, no dice. Just another Jew-hating puppet at the helm.

382 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:16:45pm

Interesting:

'Moussavi asks people to confront military with flowers not guns - we want peace - #Iranelection'
[Link: twitter.com...]

That looks to me as if Moussavi is losing control of the uprisings.

Winston said on this or the thread below that this was no longer about the elections but about changing the whole Mullahcracy.

383 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:16:45pm

Please pardon my re-re-post: Lawhawk and others have expressed similar themes, and the "we don't dare speak" meme galls me like few others. We just have to not be ham-fisted about it.

re: #311 pingjockey

I wouldn't call it a failure. I'm just disappointed he hasn't come out with a statement supporting the Iranian people in their quest for free and fair elections. That wasn't so hard was it?

A Reagan-esque speech extolling the natural right of all mankind to freedom and respect for the will of the people as expressed through elections.
It would offer succor for the people, while offering no arguable points to the regime.

Please recall that even if the current administration remains silent, it will be blamed; reviled and castigated by the regime because that's the only product they offer. On the other hand, just a SHRED for the people there would go a long way, and the regime can't very well argue with freedom and elections, when they say they are free and that they won the election.

384 poteen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:16:54pm

re: #375 Occasional Reader

Say it ain't so... you're insufficiently limber with Kimber?

Stop that! I can't concentrate now.

385 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:17:38pm

re: #382 yma o hyd

Winston said on this or the thread below that this was no longer about the elections but about changing the whole Mullahcracy.

God I hope so.

386 Equable  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:17:39pm

And I'd like to add that I am very irritated that the mainscream media isn't covering this with as much fervor as they covered September 11.

Still it's amazing to me that cell phones and social websites are subverting oppressive governmental misinformation. But at the same time, many of those participating in the social-site dissemination might be also spreading misinformation both ways to further incite the situation.

In either case this whole thing is going to be either very bad or very good. I certainly pray for the latter.

387 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:17:44pm

re: #378 debutaunt

My plan of hiding behind a tree will still work?

Depends. Not if you're a Joo, apparently. (Damn talkative trees!)

388 see bs  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:17:47pm

re: _RememberTonyC

Color me surprised!

/

I add "head" after his first name anytime I hear about him

389 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:17:53pm

re: #363 Occasional Reader

Coinkidink. I'm taking a course right now, and am rather stunned at some of the the bad habits I'd learned.

Your Sammy Davis Jr. quickdraw is entertaining.

390 solomonpanting  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:17:54pm

re: #377 buzzsawmonkey

To speak with a low-level staffer, press zero.

The Zero is being pressed, repeatedly.

391 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:18:26pm

re: #377 buzzsawmonkey

You have reached the Obama White House. If you know your party's extension, you may dial it at any time. Please listen carefully, for our menu options have changed.
To continue in Farsi, press one.
To learn how your problem is all George Bush's fault, press two.
To learn how your problem is all Israel's fault, press three.
If you would like a strong statement from the President, press four.
If you would like a weak statement from the President, press five.
If you understand that the President would prefer to eat his waffle, press six.
To return to the main menu to review these options, press seven.
To speak with a low-level staffer, press zero. Your call will be answered in the order it was received.


rotflmao

392 brookly red  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:19:00pm

re: #390 solomonpanting

The Zero is being pressed, repeatedly.

well Biden did say six months in... :)

393 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:19:02pm

re: #363 Occasional Reader

Coinkidink. I'm taking a course right now, and am rather stunned at some of the the bad habits I'd learned.

Yeah.

It hurts, doesn't it? I had no idea.

Here I'd been going to the range, practicing, thinking that I'd been getting good.

Now? Ow!

394 FrogMarch  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:19:10pm

re: #377 buzzsawmonkey

Ha! thanks!

395 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:19:22pm

re: #380 Ben Hur

I think he's stuck in "I'm the anti-Bush" mode and thinks that if he speaks, he loses the love.

Being "popular" is the currency.

396 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:19:38pm

re: #381 FrogMarch

If there were any way to scrap the Mullahs - that would be a revolution. Until then, no dice. Just another Jew-hating puppet at the helm.

Ahem.

That is what I said.

397 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:19:49pm

YAYYY! RT: @StopAhmadi: NEWS: Molotov cocktails used at Basiji HQ to put building on fire #IranElection

398 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:20:05pm

re: #393 Dianna

Yeah.

It hurts, doesn't it? I had no idea.

Here I'd been going to the range, practicing, thinking that I'd been getting good.

Now? Ow!

Be glad you are getting some practice and help to improve your competency.

399 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:20:14pm

re: #366 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If you're gonna give up the Thompson, CAN I HAVE IT?!?!?!

/pretty please?!?!

No.

I can still use it from overwatch.

400 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:20:21pm
401 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:20:22pm

re: #386 Equable

And I'd like to add that I am very irritated that the mainscream media isn't covering this with as much fervor as they covered September 11.

Um, like, hellloooo.... Usher is filing for divorce!

Let's keep our priorities straight here.

/

402 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:20:30pm

re: #343 Dianna

Why, yes. Yes, he was.

But - if this is a revolution - that doesn't matter. Momentum is an interesting thing.


One thing we know about Iranians: man, do they love to demonstrate!

403 FrogMarch  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:20:37pm

re: #396 Dianna

Ahem.

That is what I said.

yes you did! I guess that's all that's left to say.

404 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:20:53pm

re: #397 Kenneth

YAYYY! RT: @StopAhmadi: NEWS: Molotov cocktails used at Basiji HQ to put building on fire #IranElection

HOLY SHIT!

/unsubstantiated as it certainly is

405 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:20:55pm

re: #388 see bs

Color me surprised!

/

I add "head" after his first name anytime I hear about him

see bs ... great screen name!

406 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:21:05pm

re: #334 lawhawk

Obama needs to make some kind of a statement, because that's what the leader of the free world is supposed to do in this kind of situation.

Lawhawk, I think that one of the fundamental differences between the American left and right is that they do not share our assessment of the U.S President as the leader of the free world.

When they say "should lead", usually it's just a way to criticise a Republican President for leading, but not in their preferred direction.

407 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:21:06pm

re: #377 buzzsawmonkey

You have reached the Obama White House. If you know your party's extension, you may dial it at any time. Please listen carefully, for our menu options have changed.
To continue in Farsi, press one.
To learn how your problem is all George Bush's fault, press two.
To learn how your problem is all Israel's fault, press three.
If you would like a strong statement from the President, press four.
If you would like a weak statement from the President, press five.
If you understand that the President would prefer to eat his waffle, press six.
To return to the main menu to review these options, press seven.
To speak with a low-level staffer, press zero. Your call will be answered in the order it was received.

ROFL!

Thanks needed a laugh.

408 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:21:39pm

re: #389 debutaunt

Your Sammy Davis Jr. quickdraw is entertaining.

Yeah, and apparently there are problems with my shooting while holding the gun sideways and flashing gang signs, and shooting while leaping through the air sideways and screaming...

409 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:21:43pm

re: #375 Occasional Reader

Say it ain't so... you're insufficiently limber with Kimber?

Ask RevoBob, next time you run into him.

*Sigh.*

It's pitiful.

410 filetandrelease  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:21:54pm
Today, June 15, 2009, 7 minutes ago
iran09: @StopAhmadi, would you please handle the proxies? Because it's a big sec issue, we must be very careul...#iranelection

Scary stuff, pray for these people.

411 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:22:20pm

re: #401 Occasional Reader

Um, like, hellloooo.... Usher is filing for divorce!

Let's keep our priorities straight here.

/

Yeah; and Obama is busy addressing universal health care in front of a room full of doctors. Isn't that hard enough?

/

412 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:22:32pm

re: #400 Iron Fist

Practice is the key, and who can afford to practice with ammo the way it is now?

And I'm sad to report that the ammo shortage finally HAS reached my area. Yuck.

413 BatGuano  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:22:34pm

re: #317 Salamantis

Well, Ahmedinejihad has cancelled a scheduled trip to Russia; apparently, he fears that if he leaves the country now, things will rapidly change there, and he will not be permitted back in.

That is very good news. It's also f'ing hilarious. Maybe this thing has legs!

414 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:22:47pm

re: #399 Dianna

No.

I can still use it from overwatch.

hmmm
Then I shall meekly slide over into the corner ...
... and order flowers and candy from FTD ... what's your address?

/

415 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:23:18pm

re: #380 Ben Hur

I think he's stuck in "I'm the anti-Bush" mode and thinks that if he speaks, he loses the love.

"Tis better to be thought the fool and remain silent, than speak and remove all doubt."
- Widely attributed to any number of great men, including Galileo, Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln, and Winston Churchill, in a great variety of permutations on the same thought.

416 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:23:31pm

Cross-posted from earlier thread: What I don't know is whether the pro-democracy activists have aligned themselves with Mousavi for purposes of this election and these protests. "Young and affluent" certainly describes the pro-westerners in the Iranian population.

The regime is starting to murder and intimidate them. That means the clerics are scared they could lose control of the situation. Whatever the facts on the ground, my heart goes out to the peaceful demonstrators who hope for freedom and democracy in Iran.

417 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:23:45pm

re: #410 filetandrelease

Scary stuff, pray for these people.

Indeed - and I've now seen on two twitters that they are extremely careful about whom to trust. They keep asking if others know some posters - they seem to double-check the info coming in on their tweets.

418 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:24:04pm

"I will now express my empathy towards the Iranian people by being silent."

Barack Obama

419 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:25:00pm

I just want to take a moment to once again thank Charles for this blog. Not only has it made most of us smarter and better informed, it has helped us cut through the BS of a news media that is hypnotized beyond all reason.

420 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:25:03pm

re: #397 Kenneth

YAYYY! RT: @StopAhmadi: NEWS: Molotov cocktails used at Basiji HQ to put building on fire #IranElection

"There are no cocktails in Iran."

M. Ahmadinejad

421 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:25:11pm

re: #416 quickjustice

Cross-posted from earlier thread: What I don't know is whether the pro-democracy activists have aligned themselves with Mousavi for purposes of this election and these protests. "Young and affluent" certainly describes the pro-westerners in the Iranian population.

The regime is starting to murder and intimidate them. That means the clerics are scared they could lose control of the situation. Whatever the facts on the ground, my heart goes out to the peaceful demonstrators who hope for freedom and democracy in Iran.

If the government violence keeps up, those peaceful demonstrators will either stop demonstrating or get a lot less peaceful.

422 Buck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:25:19pm

re: #317 Salamantis

Well, Ahmedinejihad has cancelled a scheduled trip to Russia; apparently, he fears that if he leaves the country now, things will rapidly change there, and he will not be permitted back in.

What? They don't have "save my seat"?

423 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:26:13pm

re: #359 Salamantis

I don't miss the Reagan who turned tail and pulled us out of Lebanon after our embassy and the Marine Barracks were truckbombed.

Yep, he turned over the keys to Hezbollah - signed, sealed and delivered.
Not his proudest hour.

424 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:26:34pm

re: #418 Gus 802

"I will now express my empathy towards the Iranian people by being silent."

Barack Obama

This is the "Uh..." heard 'round the world.

425 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:26:40pm

re: #408 Occasional Reader

Yeah, and apparently there are problems with my shooting while holding the gun sideways and flashing gang signs, and shooting while leaping through the air sideways and screaming...

Try screaming something other than, "We're here, we're queer, get used to it."
/////

426 ointmentfly  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:27:23pm

re: #421 Salamantis

If the government violence keeps up, those peaceful demonstrators will either stop demonstrating or get a lot less peaceful.

As bloody as the revolution to theocracy was, I doubt a revolution out of it will be any less violent.

427 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:27:31pm

They are still trying to take ayatollah Khamenei's site down, see here

428 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:27:44pm

re: #415 CyanSnowHawk

"Tis better to be thought the fool and remain silent, than speak and remove all doubt."
- Widely attributed to any number of great men, including Galileo, Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln, and Winston Churchill, in a great variety of permutations on the same thought.

"Shut up, fool!"
- Mr. T.

429 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:27:47pm

I've been reading tweets since I got in, and LGF. Harumph. I should be working.

See me? I'm going to go work. Really. Any second now, I'm going to open a spreadsheet.

Really. I mean it, this time!

////

430 KenJen  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:27:49pm

re: #379 Last Mohican

I don't feel any great need to blame Obama for his current inactivity. He has already actively screwed up the Iran issue so badly that his passivity now is just a drop in the bucket.

Still, I'm wondering more and more why he can't at least say a few words at a podium somewhere. I think it's because there's no way he can do that and look good in the process. His schtick is to be above it all, to offer empty yet sometimes inspiring platitudes about people reaching out, joining hands, overcoming the anger of the past by mere force of hope. He's not about reaching down into the muck, getting dirty, thinking about the real problems that face the world and how to solve them.

Blood is pouring out in the streets of Tehran. There's no way to talk about that and sound like you're above it all, and everything is just going to work out fine.

Yes your right. It's probably best he keeps his mouth shut. I just wish America was in a place to help the Iranian people out. It's frustrating.

431 Equable  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:27:51pm

re: #401 Occasional Reader

Um, like, hellloooo.... Usher is filing for divorce!

Let's keep our priorities straight here.

/

D'oh, my bad!

/xanax

Ah that's better.

432 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:27:57pm
433 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:28:13pm

RT @bahram ppl telling wounded not to go the hospitals in fear of arrest in hospitals #iranelection

434 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:28:31pm

re: #423 Spare O'Lake

Sal:I don't miss the Reagan who turned tail and pulled us out of Lebanon after our embassy and the Marine Barracks were truckbombed.

Yep, he turned over the keys to Hezbollah - signed, sealed and delivered.
Not his proudest hour.

If he'd stuck it out then, Lebanon, Israel, the US and the world wouldn't be stuck with Hezbollah now.

435 Hawaii69  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:28:54pm

re: #424 haakondahl

This is the "Uh..." heard 'round the world.

A statement of support from the U.S. would do more harm than good.

436 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:29:17pm

re: #423 Spare O'Lake

Cheap shot-- Reagan's diaries note that he badly wanted to retaliate for the bombing of the U.S. Marines barrack in Beirut, but was talked out of it by his advisers. The Marines were there as peacekeepers by consent of all sides, so there's no doubt that the bombing was a war crime, not an act of heroism.

437 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:29:28pm

Wow, Spy posting works great from the iPhone. Much better than commenting in a regular thread, which can take forever.

438 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:29:58pm

re: #424 haakondahl

This is the "Uh..." heard 'round the world.

Also have to preface everything with "for too long."

"For too long, uh, people on the other side of the isle have made light of empathy. Well, with, uh, um, (is this thing on?) what I present to you today is that what's best for this world, uh, is to express your empathy by being silent."

439 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:30:01pm

re: #432 buzzsawmonkey

Why would a man with so many leisure suits fear becoming a man of leisure?

He's afraid that if deposed, he'll have to turn in his Members Only jackets.

440 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:30:11pm
441 pink freud  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:30:14pm

re: #435 Hawaii69

A statement of support from the U.S. would do more harm than good.

Yes, that's exactly what the freedom-seekers in Iran are thinking.

/right?

442 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:31:13pm

re: #413 BatGuano

That is very good news. It's also f'ing hilarious. Maybe this thing has legs!

I sure as hell hope so. If Dinnerjacket is afraid to leave the country, things may be worse than we first thought.

443 ointmentfly  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:31:37pm

re: #434 Salamantis

If he'd stuck it out then, Lebanon, Israel, the US and the world wouldn't be stuck with Hezbollah now.

Keep the political situation in context. Reagan was surrounded by democrats in congress waiting for a Vietnam to hang around his neck in time for reelection. He had to pull the plug - unfortunately.

444 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:31:54pm

President Obama is not a champion of freedom and democracy globally. He doesn't think the U.S. should "meddle" in the affairs of other countries, especially Muslim countries that might get angry at us.

He will remain silent so as not to offend the regime with which he wishes to make a deal.

445 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:31:55pm

Some bad weather out in CO...Walter!? Duck!

446 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:32:17pm

re: #432 buzzsawmonkey

Why would a man with so many leisure suits fear becoming a man of leisure?

Ahmadinejad can't stand the idea that he won't be at the Mahdi's well to greet him when he comes out.

447 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:32:32pm

re: #434 Salamantis

If he'd stuck it out then, Lebanon, Israel, the US and the world wouldn't be stuck with Hezbollah now.

I presume, then, that you supported our nearly concurrent actions in Central America, as well as our actions in Iraq, not once but twice.

448 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:32:33pm

re: #440 Iron Fist

My condolences. I went looking this weekend, and found three boxes of .357 Sig and some .22LR. That was it for pistol ammo. A little more rifle ammo. You stand a better chance if you've got one of those screwy calibers that nobody much uses. Even the expensive ammo (i.e. hydroshocks and the like) is gone. At this point, I don't expect demand to slacken until after the 2010 elections. People are really sending a message about gun control here.

I hope our political leadership is getting it. I really do.

This weekend, my range was limiting the most common pistol calibers to one box per customer. I'm a little freaked here. (My home supply is okay, but worried about range time.)

449 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:32:55pm

i just don't feel safe w/ o in the whitehouse.
where's the real leadership?
we wait trying to figure out if he is going to say something, not say something, what's he going to do?
this is real life happening in the moment, dangerous and frightening.
mccain would say something. simple, honest, meaningful.
it looks bad to remain silent. calculating.

everyone in the world is for the people of iran and their desire for freedom,
except the bad guys.

450 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:33:01pm

re: #437 Charles

Does that increase your opportunities to relax, or does it take away whatever chance you have of escaping?

451 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:33:05pm

re: #446 Kosh's Shadow

Be funny if a Mormon came out of the well...

452 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:33:07pm

re: #436 quickjustice

Cheap shot-- Reagan's diaries note that he badly wanted to retaliate for the bombing of the U.S. Marines barrack in Beirut, but was talked out of it by his advisers. The Marines were there as peacekeepers by consent of all sides, so there's no doubt that the bombing was a war crime, not an act of heroism.

What he wanted to do doesn't matter; what matters is what he actually did do. And what he actually did do was to pull us out of Lebanon and abandon it to the untender mercies of Hafez's Syria and the Hez.

453 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:33:22pm
454 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:33:24pm

re: #451 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Be funny if a Mormon came out of the well...

Even better... A woman.

455 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:33:36pm

re: #444 quickjustice

President Obama is not a champion of freedom and democracy globally. He doesn't think the U.S. should "meddle" in the affairs of other countries, especially Muslim countries that might get angry at us.

He will remain silent so as not to offend the regime with which he wishes to make a deal.

But he's perfectly willing to dictate to Israel.

456 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:33:39pm

re: #437 Charles

Wow, Spy posting works great from the iPhone. Much better than commenting in a regular thread, which can take forever.

Just think, you could be running th' whole show from a beach in Tahiti.

/hmmm ... is that the sound of running footsteps we're hearing?

457 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:34:02pm

re: #434 Salamantis

Baker's the one who gave him the advice to withdraw to avoid further casualties. The bombing demonstrated that the rules of engagement to which the Marine were bound could not protect them.

458 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:34:06pm

re: #454 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Even better... A woman.

Would he run away screaming if she were naked?

459 solomonpanting  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:34:11pm

re: #444 quickjustice

He will remain silent so as not to offend the regime with which he wishes to make a deal.

WWCD?

460 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:34:22pm

# Troubled day in Isfahan - several protesters killed; #Iranelection5 minutes ago from web

461 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:34:22pm

Oh what exceedingly good timing!

'WTF Twitter: "We will have 90 mins of maintenance starting at 9:45p Pacific today, June 15."'

[Link: twitter.com...]

462 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:34:29pm

re: #435 Hawaii69

Doing nothing in the face of evil is itself evil.

As I've repeatedly pointed out today both here and on my blog, this Administration can make a statement that addresses the key issues of the election dispute in Iran without siding with the demonstrators and without giving more fuel for Ahmadinejad to use. It's silence is deafening, and it's a vacuum that the regime is using to give itself breathing space.

After all, the US can call for the Iranians to respect free and fair elections and to call on the regime to avoid using violence to attack peaceful protesters.

Ahmadinejad himself claimed the elections were free and fair, so he can't attack the US for restating it.

463 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:34:31pm

re: #451 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Be funny if a Mormon came out of the well...

Or a Jew.

464 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:34:35pm

re: #440 Iron Fist

and some .22LR

... and I'm suddenly incentivized to pick up a Sig "Mosquito".

I shudder at the thought of plinking with .22LR for the next year and half. It seems almost... British.

465 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:34:56pm

re: #451 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Be funny if a Mormon came out of the well...

I'm betting on a Leprechaun

466 eon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:35:08pm

re: #440 Iron Fist

My condolences. I went looking this weekend, and found three boxes of .357 Sig and some .22LR. That was it for pistol ammo. A little more rifle ammo. You stand a better chance if you've got one of those screwy calibers that nobody much uses. Even the expensive ammo (i.e. hydroshocks and the like) is gone. At this point, I don't expect demand to slacken until after the 2010 elections. People are really sending a message about gun control here.

I hope our political leadership is getting it. I really do.

I'm expecting a renewed interest in shotguns, especially 12 gauge, once people realize that shotshells can be reloaded much more easily than most rifle or pistol rounds. (Strictly speaking, it can be done with home-made equipment if you have primers, shot, powder and an accurate measure for the last two.)

cheers

eon

467 JHW  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:35:24pm

The country could be more of a tinder-box than we think, the ethnic nationalists could think the time was right to seize the moment and throw the regime into chaos. From 2006

"We need to have a united and democratic coalition of all opposition groups in Iran, including the Persians," said Abdullah Muhtadi, a senior representative of the Kurdish Komala Party. "The nationalities represented here are ready to be part of a united coalition."

Afshar said pressure to overthrow the religious regime should come both from inside and outside, adding, "Our part in Azerbaijan has started."

A recent controversial cartoon in a government-run paper -- in which an Azeri Turk was depicted as a cockroach -- prompted rioting in Azerbaijani Iran in the northwest, near Turkey's border, where four people were reported killed and more than 40 others injured in protests. Other big cities, including Tehran, have also seen Azeri rioting.

A recent wave of unrest also has rocked Kurdish areas, where hardened separatists -- led by the Pejak group with links to the terrorist Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) -- have apparently been encouraged by developments across the border in Iraq.

The oil-rich southwestern province of Khuzestan, which has a sizeable ethnic Arab minority, also has seen a string of bomb attacks and apparent sabotage activity against oil and gas pipelines.

SNIP

Some analysts suggested that ethnic tensions could crack Iran's firm resolve against the Western world.

"Iran can successfully employ overwhelming force against geographically isolated groups, but it would be much more difficult to handle angry Arabs, Azeris, Baluchis, Kurds and other minorities if they act against the state simultaneously," said Abbas William Samii, a regional analyst at Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, which is funded by the U.S. government and broadcasts mainly to the Middle East and former communist states.

Azeris are believed to make up some 25 million of Iran's 70-million population. Another 10 million are estimated to be Kurdish, Arab, Baloochi and Turkmen.


Iranian Minority Groups...

468 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:35:30pm

re: #463 Kosh's Shadow

Or a Jew.

"Throw the Jew out of the well
so your country can be free..."

-Borat

469 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:35:37pm

re: #435 Hawaii69

A statement of support from the U.S. would do more harm than good.

Really? Well then how about one of condemnation?

U.S. silence when a brutal regime starts murdering its own people does more harm than good, and not just one a single stage, and not just for the term of one revolution.

470 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:35:39pm

re: #454 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Even better... A woman.

Even better: a woman not wearing muslim garb!

471 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:35:40pm

re: #455 Kosh's Shadow

The Israelis are pawns to the U.S. now They should watch their backs, and prepare to be abandoned by the U.S. government.

472 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:35:40pm

re: #463 Kosh's Shadow

Or a Jew.

A naked Jewess. ;)

473 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:35:57pm

re: #435 Hawaii69

A statement of support from the U.S. would do more harm than good.

The people in Iran are asking for just such a statement.

It would support freedom, and give the Mullahs notice we support the people.

What is so hard about the WH saying we support the natural right of people to seek freedom and self determination.

It's only hard if you don't understand that.

474 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:36:00pm

re: #461 yma o hyd

Oh what exceedingly good timing!

'WTF Twitter: "We will have 90 mins of maintenance starting at 9:45p Pacific today, June 15."'

[Link: twitter.com...]

Who are the major stockholders?

/

475 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:36:14pm

re: #454 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Even better... A woman.

A gay woman......with big fake boobs.......in a thong.

476 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:36:17pm

re: #461 yma o hyd
I'm going to go through withdrawal.

477 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:36:20pm

re: #444 quickjustice

President Obama is not a champion of freedom and democracy globally. He doesn't think the U.S. should "meddle" in the affairs of other countries, especially Muslim countries that might get angry at us.

He will remain silent so as not to offend the regime with which he wishes to make a deal.

well, there he goes cap in hand, hoping to make a deal w/ the mullahs.
how pathetic. we don't need to make a deal w/ them,
they need to make a deal w/ us.

478 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:36:22pm

re: #446 Kosh's Shadow

Ahmadinejad can't stand the idea that he won't be at the Mahdi's well to greet him when he comes out.

Oh, yes he will.

479 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:36:30pm

re: #454 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Even better... A woman.

A Jewish women.

480 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:36:31pm

re: #459 solomonpanting

Clinton or Carter?

481 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:36:39pm

# more than 100 students missing from Tehran Uni dorms - reports of several dead from last night #Iranelectionless than a minute ago from web

482 filetandrelease  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:36:45pm

re: #444 quickjustice

He will remain silent so as not to offend the regime with which he wishes to make a deal.

That is what concerns me, that this is his line of thinking.

483 eon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:36:49pm

re: #464 Occasional Reader

... and I'm suddenly incentivized to pick up a Sig "Mosquito".

I shudder at the thought of plinking with .22LR for the next year and half. It seems almost... British.


I have plenty of .22, just nothing to expend it in.

/trying to decide between a Henry AR-7, a .22 pistol, or a Rossi .22/.410 single shot combo.

cheers

eon

484 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:36:58pm

re: #474 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It's part of Obama's plan to prevent the spread of freedom!

485 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:37:35pm

re: #484 Killgore Trout

I should have used a sarc tag on that one.

486 solomonpanting  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:37:44pm

re: #480 quickjustice

Clinton or Carter?

Carter

487 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:37:53pm

re: #465 Kenneth

I'm betting on a Leprechaun

Someone "Short Shit" could look up to?

488 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:37:56pm

re: #475 VegasRick

A gay woman......with big fake boobs.......in a thong.

I thought what happened in Vegas stayed in Vegas.

489 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:38:31pm

re: #454 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Even better... A woman.

What's-er-name, J. Garoffaluffalo

490 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:38:31pm

re: #476 Killgore Trout

I'm going to go through withdrawal.

Yep - but I can't help worrying that the Iranian security forces will use this to do major damage without the rest of us learning anything about it until its too late.

491 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:38:36pm

re: #377 buzzsawmonkey

If you would like a strong statement from the President, press four.

"The hatred and conflict of the past must end, and end immediately. The world cannot wait one moment longer. The President strongly condemns whatever deplorable events you called to complain about, and demands that the parties involved set aside and overcome their differences, so as to achieve a peaceful and prosperous future together."

If you would like a weak statement from the President, press five.

"The hatred and conflict of the past should end, and end soon. The world cannot wait much longer. The President regrets whatever unfortunate events you called to complain about, and expresses his hope that the parties involved may set aside and overcome their differences, so as to achieve a peaceful and prosperous future together."

"If you would like to participate in an automated poll regarding the preceding statement, press one to indicate your agreement with the President on this matter. To order a signed copy of the preceding statement, suitable for framing, press two. To order Obama photos, 'Yes We Can' T-shirts, and other inspirational products, press three. To return to the main menu, press four."

492 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:38:44pm

re: #476 Killgore Trout

I'm going to go through withdrawal.

And no more rooster, either!

/in other words, me too

493 BatGuano  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:39:03pm

re: #486 solomonpanting

Carter

Carter? Feh!

494 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:39:12pm

re: #471 quickjustice

The Israelis are pawns to the U.S. now They should watch their backs, and prepare to be abandoned by the U.S. government.

They were under Olmert. Netanyahu is giving just enough that it should satisfy the US while showing Arab intransigence.
However, I expect Obama to keep pressuring Israel. I don't expect Netanyahu to give in, given the Arab response, which should be enough to show anyone with a brain that the Arabs are out to destroy Israel.

495 solomonpanting  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:39:22pm

re: #475 VegasRick

A gay woman......with big fake boobs.......in a thong.

In the Library with the candlestick.

496 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:39:26pm

re: #481 Kenneth

# more than 100 students missing from Tehran Uni dorms - reports of several dead from last night #Iranelectionless than a minute ago from web

That's horrible.

497 eon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:39:30pm

re: #473 jcm

The people in Iran are asking for just such a statement.

It would support freedom, and give the Mullahs notice we support the people.

What is so hard about the WH saying we support the natural right of people to seek freedom and self determination.

It's only hard if you don't understand that.

Methinks Obama believes that they "achieved" that in 1979, and the present "unrest" is the result of "ideological backsliding". He just doesn't dare come right out and say it.

/not sure if that's sarc or not.

cheers

eon

498 jill e  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:39:41pm

“History doesn't work through politics and economics alone. The power of the human spirit can ignite world-historical change.”

— George Weigel writing on the 30th anniversary (June 2, 1979) when Pope John Paul II kissed the ground at the Warsaw airport and began the process by which communism in Poland would come to an end.

499 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:40:24pm
500 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:40:25pm

re: #481 Kenneth

# more than 100 students missing from Tehran Uni dorms - reports of several dead from last night #Iranelectionless than a minute ago from web

They do seem to have it in for the students:

'sources: Shiraz Univ closed. Students are asked to leave the dorm. #iranelection #cnnfail'
[Link: twitter.com...]

501 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:40:26pm

re: #485 Killgore Trout

I should have used a sarc tag on that one.

heh

/I assumed one

502 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:40:27pm

re: #443 ointmentfly

Keep the political situation in context. Reagan was surrounded by democrats in congress waiting for a Vietnam to hang around his neck in time for reelection. He had to pull the plug - unfortunately.

So re-election mattered more to him than doing what was right in the situation? Or, what is much more morally acceptable, was Lebanon instead sacrificed on the re-electoral altar so he could continue to prosecute (and ultimately win) the Cold War?

We are now dealing with the fallout of those irrational passions that were tamped down by the Cold War alliances no longer being tamped down, as well as with the blowback from decisions made by both sides in pursuit of Cold War Great Game strategies.

503 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:40:28pm

re: #491 Last Mohican

"The hatred and conflict of the past must end, should end, and shall end."

/FIFY (the Obama verbal tic I most love to hate)

504 eon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:40:32pm

re: #489 haakondahl

What's-er-name, J. Garoffaluffalo

Tina Fey?

/a bit moonbatty, but cute when she smiles

cheers

eon

505 VegasRick  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:40:43pm

re: #488 CyanSnowHawk

I thought what happened in Vegas stayed in Vegas.

Business is a little slow, we gotta leak some stuff.

506 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:40:46pm

re: #358 Dianna

Yeah - but I got a lesson from RevoBob about that. He took me to a "steel challenge"; I found that there's a major, major difference between the range and actual movement shooting. And that my stance is all wrong. And that I'm probably using a gun too heavy for me (if I have to do something besides stand quietly and shoot). And that I'm an idiot.

I am currently re-assessing.

No, I am not enjoying it.

Practice, practice, practice.

You need to learn many different stances, shooting from behind an object, while standing, crouching, etc... I'm not a big fan of point shooting but it's not a bad idea to practice it on occasion as well.

507 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:41:28pm
508 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:41:46pm

re: #462 lawhawk

Well said. The notion that the choices are between emboldening Ahmadinejad and doing nothing is false indeed.

509 Cato the Elder  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:42:02pm

This just in from Twitter via Medaura's husband.

Want to do something practical instead of just arguing about Iran or helplessly blogging the crackdown?

Try this: Distributed Cyber-War

Quote:

ALL PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD:

Please help us in a full-scale cyberwar againts the dictatorial brutal government of Ahmadinjead! Help Iranians to earn back their votes per instructions below:

Simply click on few of the following links (better too choose your selections from different categories); it opens the site in a new tab. It will not stop you from browsing but by sending a refresh signal to the target site will saturate it. By doing so, we can block Ahmadinjead's governments flow of information in many of its key components as shown below.

Please help us and yourself from this lunatic who will push the world to world war III.

Do it now.

510 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:42:12pm

I don't think Obama "plans" anything, except to withdraw the U.S. military from the world as rapidly as possible so he can afford his massive social spending ambitions.

511 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:42:59pm

re: #425 CyanSnowHawk

Try screaming something other than, "We're here, we're queer, get used to it."
/////

He keeps trying to show his 'gang' tats.

512 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:43:13pm

I do love these guys:

'thanks to all people following us and trusting us. we are trying to give you correct info - #Iranelection'

[Link: twitter.com...]

Anybody on twitter here - do send them our encouragement and thanks for what they do!

513 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:43:57pm

re: #77 FurryOldGuyJeans

Might be due to the simple fact that Iranians are not Arab. Persia was a world class civilization, not some shit-hole tribal thugocracy.

And medieval Baghdad, or Spain, do not meet your high standards?

;)

514 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:44:01pm

re: #498 jill e

Hurrah for the Polish Pope!

515 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:44:18pm

re: #509 Cato the Elder

This just in from Twitter via Medaura's husband.

Want to do something practical instead of just arguing about Iran or helplessly blogging the crackdown?

Try this: Distributed Cyber-War

Quote:

Do it now.

Did some of that this morning.

516 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:44:28pm

re: #503 Occasional Reader

"The hatred and conflict of the past must end, should end, and shall end."

/FIFY (the Obama verbal tic I most love to hate)

"Shall" adds sort of a biblical sense of imperative, doesn't it? "And they who should unclench their fists shall unclench their fists, and the wailing and gnashing of teeth shall cease, and a peace shall descend upon their houses and their land, and there shall be much rejoicing and shooting of hoops together."

517 eon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:44:36pm

re: #499 Iron Fist

We're rationed to two boxes per customer, but you can't find much. I ran across two boxes of 9mm JHPs. $23 a box, so I bought both of them. I was going to take them out to the car and comback for the last one, but the guy in line behind me bought it.

They had stocked up off the truck the previous evening. Everything they had just about sold out within 24 hours. It is a little hard to believe this level of demand, but I don't think there's any kind of kookspiracy going on. People from all walks of life, all across America, are buying guns and ammunition at rates that far exceede anything that has ever happened in this country before. You didn't see this kind of panic buying in 1994 when the "Assault Weapons" ban was crawling its way through congress, seeking those whom it might devour...

My local stocking dealer (next block over) has about two or three boxes of 9x19 JHP, but plenty of FMJ. All of which is about $17/box, regardless of brand.

/not sure if that's good or bad.

cheers

eon

518 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:44:39pm

re: #429 Dianna

I've been reading tweets since I got in, and LGF. Harumph. I should be working.

See me? I'm going to go work. Really. Any second now, I'm going to open a spreadsheet.

Really. I mean it, this time!

////

Excellent

519 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:44:47pm

re: #509 Cato the Elder

This just in from Twitter via Medaura's husband.

Want to do something practical instead of just arguing about Iran or helplessly blogging the crackdown?

Try this: Distributed Cyber-War

Quote:

Do it now.

And hope it doesn't violate your internet provider's terms of service, or they could disconnect you.
I hate to be negative about this, but most ISPs frown on this.

520 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:45:05pm

re: #447 haakondahl

I presume, then, that you supported our nearly concurrent actions in Central America, as well as our actions in Iraq, not once but twice.

We should have finished off Saddam in Gulf War I, and our covert actions in Central America prevented it from becoming the Soviet enclave they were employing Cuba to morph it into.

521 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:45:14pm
522 SummerSong  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:45:34pm

re: #461 yma o hyd

Oh what exceedingly good timing!

'WTF Twitter: "We will have 90 mins of maintenance starting at 9:45p Pacific today, June 15."'

[Link: twitter.com...]


Oh, good grief! Their timing sucks.

523 Macker  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:46:02pm

re: #437 Charles

Wow, Spy posting works great from the iPhone. Much better than commenting in a regular thread, which can take forever.

I'm thinking about getting a Palm Pre in January IF it comes to Verizon. Are there any Lizards out there who've done the same thing Charles did?

524 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:46:03pm

re: #400 Iron Fist

Practice is the key, and who can afford to practice with ammo the way it is now?

I do most of my practicing with a .22. The mechanics of it are the same and the ammunition is much cheaper.

525 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:46:07pm

I'm still holding out hope that the mullahs will be taken hostage.

526 zombie  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:46:33pm

re: #176 Cato the Elder

You mean like the way the US was behind them when George Herbert Walker Bush & Cie. called on the Marsh Arabs in the south of Iraq and the Kurds in the north to rise up and overthrow Saddam Hussein after Gulf War I? And the way we then bravely sat back and moaned like bitches about liberty and freedom and our support is with you while those two groups and many others were systematically hunted down and slaughtered? And the best we could offer them, after it was too late, was no-fly zones?

That the kind of support you mean?

I bet the mullahs are just drooling for that to happen.

No, that's not the kind of support I mean. I mean -- if Iran starts or even hints at massacring its own people, we provide actual military support to the Iranian people to throw off the yoke of their government.

Taking a bad example from the past does not have any relevance to this situation. One could just as easily say, "You mean like the way the US threw their support behind the British in WWII?" or "You mean like the way the US threw their support behind the anti-communist forces in Grenada in 1983?" and so on.

527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:46:57pm

Bolton's on Fox w/ Cavuto.

Dude is soooooo smart.

528 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:47:11pm

re: #160 Occasional Reader

A: Obama is everywhere. Why? Because He loves us.

OR, Winston grew up in Iran, and may not be familiar with the Baltimore Catechism. Just sayin'.

529 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:47:14pm

Twitter is a CIA plot promoted by the Zionist-imperialist Americans!

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

////////////////////

530 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:47:24pm

re: #457 quickjustice

Baker's the one who gave him the advice to withdraw to avoid further casualties. The bombing demonstrated that the rules of engagement to which the Marine were bound could not protect them.

The Soviets, otoh, kidnapped the brother of the terror leader who killed some of their people, and mailed his brother's genitals to him. They were never fucked with again.

531 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:47:24pm

'it is very hard here - we are under big pressure and risk - we are being tracked on twitter - #Iranelection'

'we are all tired - no sleep for 3 days - one of us is injured from baton - waiting for doctor #Iranelection'

[Link: twitter.com...]

532 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:47:31pm

Bolton the next Vader?

?/Bolton 12!

533 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:47:35pm

re: #497 eon

Methinks Obama believes that they "achieved" that in 1979, and the present "unrest" is the result of "ideological backsliding". He just doesn't dare come right out and say it.

/not sure if that's sarc or not.

cheers

eon

While people are in the streets of Tehran fighting for freedom, he's in Chicago proposing to take more of mine.

534 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:47:38pm

re: #527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
That 'stache scares dictators silly!

535 Bloodnok  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:47:42pm

re: #525 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm still holding out hope that the mullahs will be taken hostage.

Powerless exile would be nice, too.

536 eon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:48:08pm

re: #524 Wendya

I do most of my practicing with a .22. The mechanics of it are the same and the ammunition is much cheaper.

Indoor practice- airsoft (BION). Outdoor- airgun.

Both teach sight picture, grip, stance, trigger control, etc. Also a good cure for flinching.

cheers

eon

537 pingjockey  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:48:45pm

BBL

538 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:49:22pm
539 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:50:00pm

re: #511 debutaunt

He keeps trying to show his 'gang' tats.

Gang tats?

Damn... and I thought it was gang tits.

/

540 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:50:02pm

re: #535 Bloodnok

I meant right before powerless exile.

541 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:50:52pm

re: #183 pingjockey

Yep. Something. This is just wrong. The mad mullahs are working on a bomb whose stated aim is to annihalate Israel and a popular uprising possibly happening. No definitive statement from the President.

The nukes do seem to have popular support, though. Not sure anything internal is gonna derail that program.

542 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:50:53pm

re: #534 pingjockey

He's trimmed it way back.

543 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:51:17pm

re: #533 jcm

I don't know if the demonstrators are "fighting for freedom" or not. I do know that when the mullahs' thugs start shooting them and beating them, I'm on their side.

544 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:51:20pm

'Please @Twitter and @ev don't take down twitter, for the iranian ppl #iranelection'
[Link: twitter.com...]

Is there any way to make twitter change its mind?
E-mails, faxes, phone calls, by any of you lot in the USA?

545 ROPMA  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:52:41pm

re: #517 eon

Went to a gun show this weekend. No shortage of any ammo at all. Wallmart has stayed sold out of all common ammo for several months.

546 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:52:43pm

Meanwhile the leftists are comparing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and this election to George W. Bush.

And we're supposed to be silent about Obama and his silence.

Fascinating.

547 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:52:49pm

'we only want freedom - we are peaceful - we have no life no future in IRI without freedom - #Iranelection'

[Link: twitter.com...]

548 Wendya  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:53:24pm

re: #538 Iron Fist

That's a little better than what you can find around here. The FMJs are great target rounds, but not so great self defense loads.

I only keep about 100 rounds of defensive loads around. Mostly, I stock up on target rounds. It's crazy to use up a couple of magazines of Hornady on paper targets.

549 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:53:27pm

re: #508 MrPaulRevere

Well said. The notion that the choices are between emboldening Ahmadinejad and doing nothing is false indeed.

We must be whatever means necessary prevent the acquisition by the Iranian regime of the Words of Mass Destrcuction; "Great Satan". If ever they are able to point to our actions in order to justify the deployment of these terrible words, the next words waged will be "sticks and stones".

You might need to be kind of old to get this.

And I'm going to bed with my cellphone refreshing twitter feeds.

"Freedom is the birthright of all humanity."

550 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:53:28pm

re: #176 Cato the Elder

CIA helped the Shah chase the Tudeh commies out of power in the early 1950s. Obama's CIA will do no such thing.

551 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:53:58pm

re: #185 KenJen

Any word on what Israel is saying about this?

From the JPost.

552 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:55:08pm

'we have call from Sharak Gharb - reports of streetfighting and tear gas #Iranelection'

[Link: twitter.com...]

553 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:56:30pm

I gotta tear meself away now - early morning tomorrow!

Seeya tomorrow - and pray for the brave people of Iran who stand up against tyranny!

554 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:57:22pm

re: #245 winston06

I am going to rest for a bit... too tired to continue

Good idea. I can't imagine how you must be feeling right now--hang in there!

555 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:58:48pm

re: #265 Killgore Trout

Nonsense. The Kurds did die because of anything that was said or wasn't said. They died because lack of action. It just stupid to think some great proclamation by Obama is going to help anything. It would most likely hurt the protesters by making them look like they're part of a Western plot against the government.

Dinnerjacket is already issuing statements to that effect.

556 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:58:57pm

re: #551 SanFranciscoZionist

From the JPost.

15. To all the freedom loving countries of the world and their leadership; Thanks for nothing.
We will never forget.
Aryan - USA/IRAN (06/15/2009 18:29)

557 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:59:13pm

re: #546 Gus 802

Meanwhile the leftists are comparing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and this election to George W. Bush.

And we're supposed to be silent about Obama and his silence.

Fascinating.

Yeah, never mind what they do over [wherever]. That way lies madness.

558 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 1:59:15pm

re: #543 quickjustice

I don't know if the demonstrators are "fighting for freedom" or not. I do know that when the mullahs' thugs start shooting them and beating them, I'm on their side.

It's been simmering for years, this generation in the streets wants to throw off the Mullahs. Yes, they do want a western style democracy and freedom.

They didn't support Mousavi because he was thug lite, they wanted reform and the mullahs snatched it away.

Camel

Meet

Straw

*render style*

559 sadhu  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:00:05pm

we only want freedom - we are peaceful - we have no life no future in IRI without freedom - #Iranelection
8 minutes ago from web

560 cartoonboy  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:00:16pm

President Obama responding to questions about the Iran situation told reporters that he's answering to the fierce urgency of not now, waffles are getting cold.

561 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:00:37pm
562 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:00:46pm

re: #557 haakondahl

Yeah, never mind what they do over [wherever]. That way lies madness.

Yeah, I know. Ran into it while searching the news for Iran. Of course the lead entry was a Daily Kos blog. Funny how Daily Kos is considered "news" in Google news searches.

563 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:00:47pm

The brutality of these Iranian "holy" men, so hungry for power that they will murder and maim, lies exposed for the world to see. The naked face of evil has surfaced.

This will make it hard for Obama to side with them, but out of expediency, he will find a way.

564 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:00:55pm

Beck's on. Gonna watch a whole episode.

See y'all in a bit. I might be in a militia when I get back tho....

565 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:01:36pm

re: #564 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Beck's on. Gonna watch a whole episode.

See y'all in a bit. I might be in a militia when I get back tho....

Nor Laup!

//

566 eon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:01:46pm

re: #538 Iron Fist

That's a little better than what you can find around here. The FMJs are great target rounds, but not so great self defense loads. I'd buy them, maybe. Unless the brand just sucked, I'd buy all the 9X19 JHP he'd sell me. If I had a 9mm that is...

I only own one, a P-35 High Power. Old-fashioned but reliable, with enough magazine capacity that if I have to shoot twice, I've still got enough to handle the situation.

As for FMJ vs. JHP, in the last century a lot more men have been done in by the former than by the latter. I was always taught "center torso or head" in a life-threatening situation; in either place, the bullet style hardly matters. And FMJ rarely fails to feed.

/I still believe the best "home defense" arm is a 12-gauge, though.

cheers

eon

567 yochanan  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:01:51pm

iran; fascism for all to see

568 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:03:59pm

Seeing the current demonstartions in Iran, I wonder if Jimmih Cahdah has flashbacks to the endless demonstrations in front of the US embassy in Tehran during the hostage "crisis".

569 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:04:13pm
570 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:05:09pm
571 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:05:26pm

re: #556 Ben Hur

To all the freedom loving countries of the world and their leadership; Thanks for nothing.
We will never forget.

Breaks my heart.

572 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:05:28pm

re: #559 sadhu

we only want freedom - we are peaceful - we have no life no future in IRI without freedom - #Iranelection
8 minutes ago from web

They better get over the "peaceful" part smartly. The regime isn't listening to that.

573 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:06:32pm

re: #566 eon

I only own one, a P-35 High Power. Old-fashioned but reliable, with enough magazine capacity that if I have to shoot twice, I've still got enough to handle the situation.

As for FMJ vs. JHP, in the last century a lot more men have been done in by the former than by the latter. I was always taught "center torso or head" in a life-threatening situation; in either place, the bullet style hardly matters. And FMJ rarely fails to feed.

/I still believe the best "home defense" arm is a 12-gauge, though.

cheers

eon

Pump action, the sound of loading alone should be enough.

574 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:06:56pm

re: #525 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm still holding out hope that the mullahs will be taken hostage.

That would be sort of charming, wouldn't it?

575 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:06:58pm

Well, I guess it's official. Obama is supposed to speak like right about now?

577 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:08:04pm

re: #571 jcm

Breaks my heart.

Not the first time.

And regarding the Kos party line:

They supported Saddam and wanted the Iraqis in chains.

They supported Dinnerjacket over Bush and Israel.

They have ZERO credibility in this debate.

Liberation is a Conservative value.

578 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:08:40pm

re: #543 quickjustice

I don't know if the demonstrators are "fighting for freedom" or not. I do know that when the mullahs' thugs start shooting them and beating them, I'm on their side.

That's basically where I am too.

579 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:08:52pm

Heartbreaking Tweet relayed by Winston:

"We only want freedom - we are peaceful - we have no life no future in IRI without freedom"

Unfortunately, history shows us that sometimes you must choose between freedom and peace, but it is a Hobson's choice anyway.

As Winston Churchill thundered, "We were given a choice between war and dishonour. We have chosen dishonour, and will get war!"

580 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:10:16pm

re: #546 Gus 802

Meanwhile the leftists are comparing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and this election to George W. Bush.

And we're supposed to be silent about Obama and his silence.

Fascinating.

At least they're AGAINST Dinnerjacket. This is step in the right direction.

581 Dianna  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:11:50pm

re: #579 haakondahl

Heartbreaking Tweet relayed by Winston:

"We only want freedom - we are peaceful - we have no life no future in IRI without freedom"

Unfortunately, history shows us that sometimes you must choose between freedom and peace, but it is a Hobson's choice anyway.

As Winston Churchill thundered, "We were given a choice between war and dishonour. We have chosen dishonour, and will get war!"

I was taught that Winston said, "Having a choice between War and Shame, he chose Shame. He will get War."

That was the reaction to Chamberlain at Munich.

582 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:12:34pm

re: #564 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Beck's on. Gonna watch a whole episode.

See y'all in a bit. I might be in a militia when I get back tho....

So much for that....

I made it 12 minutes in.

583 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:13:40pm

Freedom vs. Slavery, and what makes the difference.

584 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:14:40pm

re: #582 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So much for that....

I made it 12 minutes in.

A Minuteman! ACK! Run... ;)

585 eon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:15:36pm

re: #573 Spare O'Lake

Pump action, the sound of loading alone should be enough.

Remington 870. Accept no substitutes.

/Used Mossbergs. Other that 590 MILSPEC, not impressed.

cheers

eon

586 NelsFree  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:16:20pm

I'd say 'Good Afternoon', where it not for the violence in Tehran.

Two points I'd like to bring up.
1. Carter did not "sit on his ass" during the 444-day Hostage Crisis. He authorized Operation Eagle Claw, the Hostage Rescue...Attempt. It failed, and sealed his fate. The technical merits can be debated another time.
2. Bush 41 complied with the UN whathchacallit, which was to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation. It did not allow for overthrow of Saddam, so he stopped. The "Highway of Death" was a demonstration of how greedy the Iraqi soldiers were and how effective Coalition soldiers were at killing them. Colin Powell was quoted, "there is no nice way to kill an enemy".
Okay, four.
3. Bush 41 should have backed up his encouragement to the Marsh Arabs with materiel support.
4. It has been mentioned that Obama seems to have little traction in Iran. Obama's Father was Sunni. Iran is Shia. Sunnis and Shia hate each other.
I hope this helps.

587 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:18:28pm

I've been doing some reading on Moussavi. . .it seems there are two sides to the fellow. Back in the day, he's said to have been quite the hard-liner himself, and is connected with the founding of Hezbollah.

Asia Times Online

More recently, he has remade his image into that of a reformer. With that in mind, t's hard to know what the people of Iran would get were he in office.

As much as I sympathize with the progress-minded folks in Iran who are fighting for a better tomorrow, I'm not sure that Moussavi would lead where they think. It might just be, that Obama's administration isn't making such a bad decision in keeping mum about these riots. There's more to this than meets the eye.

588 Gus  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:21:04pm
Twitter search has timed out.
We're givin' ya all she's got, Captain! Please wait a moment and try again.
589 BatGuano  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:21:29pm

re: #586 NelsFree

Hi Nels, can you tie all that together into a single point?

590 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:21:35pm

re: #587 Yashmak

Good point. (That Ming the Merciless?).

But, if the people of Iran elected him...

591 ROPMA  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:24:49pm

re: #585 eon

Home defense shotguns are great. Actual make and model matter little.

592 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:27:45pm
593 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:28:29pm

re: #586 NelsFree

I'd say 'Good Afternoon', where it not for the violence in Tehran.

Two points I'd like to bring up.
1. Carter did not "sit on his ass" during the 444-day Hostage Crisis. He authorized Operation Eagle Claw, the Hostage Rescue...Attempt. It failed, and sealed his fate. The technical merits can be debated another time.
2. Bush 41 complied with the UN whathchacallit, which was to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation. It did not allow for overthrow of Saddam, so he stopped. The "Highway of Death" was a demonstration of how greedy the Iraqi soldiers were and how effective Coalition soldiers were at killing them. Colin Powell was quoted, "there is no nice way to kill an enemy".
Okay, four.
3. Bush 41 should have backed up his encouragement to the Marsh Arabs with materiel support.
4. It has been mentioned that Obama seems to have little traction in Iran. Obama's Father was Sunni. Iran is Shia. Sunnis and Shia hate each other.
I hope this helps.

Rabbit Bait may have authorized Eagle Claw, but his micro management doom it. He didn't what a "rescue force" to look like and invasion so limited the size of the insertion force. This cut the force to minimum so aborted choppers jeopardized the rescue. Second the first aborts before desert where were based on rotor warnings, these safety warning require an abort under training mission guidelines, the force asked to change to combat rules but were denied in planning stages.

Rabbit Bait pulled the support rug from under the Shah, and green lighted Khomeini's return, without Khomeini more moderates in the Parliment (Majlis) would have taken power. Rabbit Bait put Khomeini in power.

On Nov. 4, '79 Khomeini was still consolidating power. Moderate elements in Iran were posed to dispose Khomeini if the US responded strongly, instead Rabbit Baits weak response strengthened Khomeini's hand. During this time he was able to purge the moderate elements.

Rabbit Bait owns the entire mess in Iran.

Eagle Claw was a pathetic day late dollar short bit of ass covering by Bait that cost American lives.

Rabbit Bait get ZERO credit for authorizing the rescue mission.

594 FrogMarch  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:29:25pm

He Who Cannot Stop Talking, Is Silent On Iran

595 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:30:08pm
596 restitutor orbis  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:30:15pm

Sweet. If this devolves into actual street fighting, I am looking forward to seeing Iranian tanks and APC's blazing like torches on the side of the road.
After 6 years of that shit in Iraq, it will be nice to see the other side bleed, hopefully in torrents.
Of course, a raging mob stringing up this thug and his gang of cronies is just the icing on the cake.

597 NelsFree  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:30:21pm

re: #589 BatGuano

Hi Nels, can you tie all that together into a single point?

"Um, Freedom Good, Tyranny Bad!"
/back at ya

598 eon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:33:59pm

re: #591 ROPMA

Home defense shotguns are great. Actual make and model matter little.

Good info there. My major complaint with the Mossberg is that magazine mount; not only does it prohibit a magazine extension (which I have an important reason for), but I've seen a lot that have been field-stripped and had the screw stripped by some hamfisted amateur on reassembly. Not good.

My reason for a mag extension is that with a 7 or 8-shot, you can load three in the tube, and leave it for several weeks at a stretch without damaging the feed spring. (It's less than half-compressed.) Three rounds in the standard five-shot can weaken the spring, over the same timespan. Which means that when you need it to feed, it might not.

/And yes, I always kept spare springs in stock, just in case.

I definitely agree with #6 or #7 shot for indoor defense. I've seen enough autopsies of would-be burglars, rapists, etc., who ended up wearing toe-tags due to center-chest hits at ten feet or less from 2 1/2" "birdshot" loads to doubt their effectiveness.

/The result is rather like a very big Glaser entering, IYKWIM.

cheers

eon

599 BatGuano  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:35:36pm

re: #597 NelsFree

"Um, Freedom Good, Tyranny Bad!"
/back at ya

My question wasn't intended to be confrontational: It was just a question; albeit, possibly badly worded. I don't disagree with a single point you made.

600 NelsFree  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:36:51pm

re: #593 jcm

You missed my: "The technical merits can be debated another time."
SOOO...
Overall correct except for your last statement. Carter as POTUS authorized the mission, he accepted responsibility for its failure. He royally screwed it up with the micromanagement, though. Please remember that the Shah was dying of cancer and came to US for treatment, which outraged Iranians. Khomenei had planned for a while his return, and executed it when the time was ripe.
/"Let us learn from this history, so we do not repeat it".

601 Lynn B.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:40:19pm

re: #527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Bolton's on Fox w/ Cavuto.

Dude is soooooo smart.

Yes. He is.

In fact, what was stunning was that the Western media fell for the whole charade, although it was par for reporters whose political bias frequently obscures reality, whether in Iran or America. It was also par for Obama’s style of governance, which views speech making as a relaxing, convenient substitute for presidential action.

The media’s endlessly incorrect narrative about struggles between “moderates” and “hard-liners” within the Islamic Revolution of 1979 will doubtless continue, because abandoning it now would be admitting the intellectual poverty of three decades of Western reporting. It would have been easier if outsiders had from the outset understood the debate between the regime’s moderates and hard-liners this way: Hard-liners like Ahmadinejad want to continue Iran’s nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs and boast about “wiping Israel off the map.” By contrast, the moderates want to continue Iran’s nuclear and ballistic missile programs but remain silent, thus more effectively deluding many willing Westerners.

602 NelsFree  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:41:00pm

re: #599 BatGuano

My question wasn't intended to be confrontational: It was just a question; albeit, possibly badly worded. I don't disagree with a single point you made.

I'm cool on it. Thanks for the concurrence. How about a beer?
/*sssssssssnnik-pop*

603 NelsFree  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:42:05pm

BBL

604 BatGuano  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:42:52pm

re: #602 NelsFree

Sounds good to me. And I apologize for using a colon and semi-colon in the same sentence. :)

605 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:46:40pm

re: #600 NelsFree

You missed my: "The technical merits can be debated another time."
SOOO...
Overall correct except for your last statement. Carter as POTUS authorized the mission, he accepted responsibility for its failure. He royally screwed it up with the micromanagement, though. Please remember that the Shah was dying of cancer and came to US for treatment, which outraged Iranians. Khomenei had planned for a while his return, and executed it when the time was ripe.
/"Let us learn from this history, so we do not repeat it".

My point is if Rabbit Bait didn't fuck it up from square one, we wouldn't have needed a rescue mission. Then he fucked that up too. ZERO credit.

The Shah was out, correct, but Khomeini wasn't in by any means not without Bait's complicity.

606 eon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:53:39pm

re: #593 jcm

Rabbit Bait may have authorized Eagle Claw, but his micro management doom it. He didn't what a "rescue force" to look like and invasion so limited the size of the insertion force. This cut the force to minimum so aborted choppers jeopardized the rescue. Second the first aborts before desert where were based on rotor warnings, these safety warning require an abort under training mission guidelines, the force asked to change to combat rules but were denied in planning stages.

Rabbit Bait pulled the support rug from under the Shah, and green lighted Khomeini's return, without Khomeini more moderates in the Parliment (Majlis) would have taken power. Rabbit Bait put Khomeini in power.

On Nov. 4, '79 Khomeini was still consolidating power. Moderate elements in Iran were posed to dispose Khomeini if the US responded strongly, instead Rabbit Baits weak response strengthened Khomeini's hand. During this time he was able to purge the moderate elements.

Rabbit Bait owns the entire mess in Iran.

Eagle Claw was a pathetic day late dollar short bit of ass covering by Bait that cost American lives.

Rabbit Bait get ZERO credit for authorizing the rescue mission.

The classic "cognitive dissonance" moment was related by Col. Charles Beckwith to the author of Chariots of the Damned (excellent book, BTW). During the initial briefings on procedures, when Beckwith described the way that the scouts were tasked with neutralizing the sentries in the embassy compound (suppressed weapons and/or any other applicable silent kill procedures). SecDef Harold Brown and SecState Cyrus Vance were "appalled" by the idea of actually killing any members of the OPFOR. "Can't they just, you know, shoot them in the arm, or knock them out, or something?" was the response from Brown. Beckwith suspected then that no matter what latitude of action he would be granted "on paper", the actual situation was going to be the Squad Leader In The Sky Syndrome as practiced by LBJ in Vietnam, only worse, as he was dealing with people who thought Mission; Impossible equalled the reality of SpecOps. Combined with poor coordination and preparation (wrong helos sent with no sandshields for their engines and not prepared for hot/high, etc.), the failure was almost a given, no matter what happened at Desert One (which was a staging point made necessary by the lack of a tanker for the helos- another "failure to provide", courtesy of Brown, who as a former AF Secretary should have thought of that).

Vance resigned "in protest" after the disaster. If Carter had any balls or brains, he'd have fired Vance and Brown both, and then resigned himself.

/rant mode off

cheers

eon

607 BatGuano  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:54:19pm

re: #605 jcm

It is forgotten by some that when the Iranians took our embassy in 1979, they occupied American soil. It should have elicited a response commensurate with the act.

608 eon  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 2:59:08pm

re: #598 eon


I definitely agree with #6 or #7 shot for indoor defense. I've seen enough autopsies of would-be burglars, rapists, etc., who ended up wearing toe-tags due to center-chest hits at ten feet or less from 2 1/2" "birdshot" loads to have no doubt of their effectiveness.

/The result is rather like a very big Glaser entering, IYKWIM

/Had to fix that. PIMF.

cheers

eon

609 jcm  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:11:31pm

re: #607 BatGuano

It is forgotten by some that when the Iranians took our embassy in 1979, they occupied American soil. It should have elicited a response commensurate with the act.

A frequent comment of mine.

A State of War has existed with Iran since Nov. 4, '79.

Only one side knows that however.

610 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 3:42:19pm

re: #590 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Good point. (That Ming the Merciless?).

Why yes, yes it is :)

611 Hawaii69  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 5:58:09pm

re: #441 pink freud

Yes, that's exactly what the freedom-seekers in Iran are thinking.

/right?

Statments of support from the U.S. Government would only undermine the perceived legitimacy of their cause.
The Iranian government could point to "foreign agitators" and "CIA spies" as driving the protests.

It's not the kind of endoresement they need.

You have a bad habit of downdinging people simply because you don't agree with their opinion. On most
websites, it's reserved for hateful comments, spam,
insults, etc.

Have a little respect, and maturity.

612 Hawaii69  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 6:00:06pm

re: #462 lawhawk

Doing nothing in the face of evil is itself evil.

As I've repeatedly pointed out today both here and on my blog, this Administration can make a statement that addresses the key issues of the election dispute in Iran without siding with the demonstrators and without giving more fuel for Ahmadinejad to use. It's silence is deafening, and it's a vacuum that the regime is using to give itself breathing space.

After all, the US can call for the Iranians to respect free and fair elections and to call on the regime to avoid using violence to attack peaceful protesters.

Ahmadinejad himself claimed the elections were free and fair, so he can't attack the US for restating it.


I guess Obama must have been inspired by your post.

613 A.W.  Mon, Jun 15, 2009 7:34:29pm

> Doing nothing in the face of evil is itself evil.

Mmm, I am sure this is from a supporter of the iraq and afghanistan wars, right?

personally i believe it, which is why I want to see the regime go down.


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