Tampa Bay Online has a report on the unruly health care town hall meeting in Tampa, Florida that resulted in scuffles and fist fights. (Video may take a few seconds to load.)
American politics is turning into a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.
1 |
pat Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:38:46am |
Instigated, I believe. The new Obama strategy: shut the public up with intimidation and violence.
| 3 |
SixDegrees Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:40:34am |
There were reports in the overnight thread that events were instigated by SEIU members in the crowed starting a shoving match. I couldn't get any independent confirmation; any additional information on those allegations yet?
Or any other information on what actually took place?
| 5 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:41:02am |
A man could make a bundle with a torch and pitchfork concession
| 6 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:41:25am |
My stars! This is the face of current political debate in this country. We are well and truly screwed if we can't sit down and have a discussion like adult and rational people.
| 8 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:41:45am |
re: #3 SixDegrees
There were reports in the overnight thread that events were instigated by SEIU members in the crowed starting a shoving match. I couldn't get any independent confirmation; any additional information on those allegations yet?
Or any other information on what actually took place?
I'm looking. In 24 hours I do expect to hear that "'insert name here' acted stupidly".
| 10 |
Baier Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:42:15am |
re: #6 Sharmuta
My stars! This is the face of current political debate in this country. We are well and truly screwed if we can't sit down and have a discussion like adult and rational people.
Obama did say he wanted to change the tone in Washington.
| 11 |
pat Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:42:33am |
re: #3 SixDegrees
That is the way Drudge called it:
[Link: www.drudgereport.com...]
See headlines, top left. That is where I got my opinion of instigation.
| 12 |
karmic_inquisitor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:42:35am |
I blame George Bush the Insurance Companies.
| 13 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:43:07am |
Dissent WAS patriotic... Until Obama called his thugs from SEIU and ACORN in...
| 14 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:43:27am |
re: #10 Baier
Obama did say he wanted to change the tone in Washington.
"There are no red states. There are no blue states. There are only black and blue states."
/s
| 15 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:43:39am |
re: #10 Baier
Obama did say he wanted to change the tone in Washington.
It's not Washington I'm worried about- it's average Americans thinking political dissent means we rip clothes off of others and scream profanities about people's mothers.
| 18 |
karmic_inquisitor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:44:14am |
Perhaps we now have our own Chavistas.
| 19 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:44:33am |
"You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation," said one e-mail memo from a Connecticut activist and member of the Tea Party Patriots organization. "Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early."In some cases, pro-health care reform groups are responding by urging their supporters to fight back.
Health Care for American Now, a national pro-health care reform group, advised its members in a memo, "Arrive earlier than the other side," "Be more visible than the other side" and "Stack our folks in the front to create a wall around the member [of Congress holding the event]."
Sounds like both sides went in intending to do battle, and that's exactly what they did.
BTW, who is the group, "Organizing for America"?
| 20 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:44:35am |
"Punch back twice as hard" was NOT an instruction to demonstrators. He was speaking metaphorically about "hitting back" at critics of the health plan.
Drudge is playing a little fast and loose with the truth there.
| 22 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:45:00am |
I think the guy who said this wasn't about health care was entirely right.
| 23 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:45:12am |
re: #20 Charles
Obama may have said one thing, but his supporters apparently heard something quite different?
| 24 |
Diamond Bullet Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:45:17am |
Let's hope the Democrats start leading off these town hall meetings with a warning: "During the debate please don't fight, because under our plan it'll take you 6 days to see a doctor."
| 25 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:45:27am |
re: #20 Charles
"Punch back twice as hard" was NOT an instruction to demonstrators. He was speaking metaphorically about "hitting back" at critics of the health plan.
Drudge is playing a little fast and loose with the truth there.
Of course Drudge knows that... It's just that Union enforcers don't...
| 26 |
Baier Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:45:34am |
re: #15 Sharmuta
It's not Washington I'm worried about- it's average Americans thinking political dissent means we rip clothes off of others and scream profanities about people's mothers.
Agreed, I was just being inappropriately silly. I'm worried too that fighting the the streets will replace rational verbal discord.
| 27 |
Spider Mensch Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:45:36am |
re: #3 SixDegrees
There were reports in the overnight thread that events were instigated by SEIU members in the crowed starting a shoving match. I couldn't get any independent confirmation; any additional information on those allegations yet?
Or any other information on what actually took place?
I think that was the St Louis meeting...
| 28 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:45:49am |
re: #21 filetandrelease
You mean like Burr and Hamilton?
Did they whip up frenzied mobs to attack their fellow citizens?
| 29 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:46:11am |
"You gotta fight!
For your right!
To health... care!"
(apologies to the Beastie Boys, and best wishes to MCA for a fully recovery from his throat cancer)
| 30 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:46:13am |
re: #23 lawhawk
Obama may have said one thing, but his supporters apparently heard something quite different?
It wasn't Obama who said that! It was deputy chief of staff Jim Messina, and it had nothing to do with the demonstrations.
| 32 |
JammieWearingFool Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:46:34am |
Community organizers don't like it when communities organize.
| 33 |
SixDegrees Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:46:54am |
I can't get the video above to play, but others scattered around the web have obviously been heavily edited; they are extremely gappy, with no logical reason for the cutouts. I'd like to see an unedited version, if anyone knows of one.
| 35 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:47:22am |
re: #32 JammieWearingFool
Community organizers don't like it when communities organize.
Especially if it's those pesky communities who don't want what I think is best for them...
| 36 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:47:32am |
| 37 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:47:48am |
Patterico reported on a similar outbreak of fisticuffs in St. Louis, where it appears that the SEIU was involved.
| 38 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:48:19am |
re: #26 Baier
Agreed, I was just being inappropriately silly. I'm worried too that fighting the the streets will replace rational verbal discord.
I know some folks like to be more playful, and I have my moments too, but the landscape of political discourse has worried me in the last few months, and I take this issue a bit seriously- just to let you know my perspective.
| 39 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:48:46am |
re: #20 Charles
"Punch back twice as hard" was NOT an instruction to demonstrators.
But do they realize this?
| 40 |
Curt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:48:56am |
I noticed the people who were focused on, or let to make a heard comment were mostly those inn support, except the one young teacher who made a good observation that it's about the entire situation.
Quite clear which side of the equation the Chl 8 people are on by the way they "selected" the content. And...og course they let a woman say they are bussed in to stop the discussion. Gotta make sure it's all about the mob...
| 41 |
VioletTiger Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:49:01am |
re: #33 SixDegrees
I can't get the video above to play, but others scattered around the web have obviously been heavily edited; they are extremely gappy, with no logical reason for the cutouts. I'd like to see an unedited version, if anyone knows of one.
Maybe this one?:
| 42 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:49:17am |
Anybody remember this?
* NW Progressive Institute, March 2005: “a boisterous crowd which frequently interrupted the discussion with shouts and hard nosed questions. … Democrats in the audience who were interrupting the panel…. the crowd erupted in anger… Democrats in the audience started shouting him down again.
* Savannah Morning News, March 2005: “By now, Jack Kingston is used to shouted questions, interruptions and boos. Republican congressmen expect such responses these days when they meet with constituents about President Bush’s proposal to overhaul Social Security.”
* USA Today, March 2005: “Shaken by raucous protests at open “town hall”-style meetings last month … Santorum was among dozens of members of Congress who ran gantlets of demonstrators and shouted over hecklers at Social Security events last month. Many who showed up to protest were alerted by e-mails and bused in by anti-Bush organizations such as MoveOn.org and USAction, a liberal advocacy group. They came with prepared questions and instructions on how to confront lawmakers.”
| 43 |
opnion Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:49:26am |
There was just a couple on the radio. The husband is actually a Union member that opposes health reform.
The husband got roughed up by Obamas storm troopers, the SEIU thugs.
The guy has stage four cancer.
Welcome to the Brave New World.
| 44 |
filetandrelease Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:49:35am |
re: #28 Sharmuta
No, they handled the matter like grown ups. (JK) My point perhaps not clearly made is that political discourse in the country has a history of being unruly.
| 45 |
NukeAtomrod Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:50:23am |
re: #20 Charles
"Punch back twice as hard" was NOT an instruction to demonstrators. He was speaking metaphorically about "hitting back" at critics of the health plan.
Drudge is playing a little fast and loose with the truth there.
Maybe Obama's supporters didn't grok that he was speaking metaphorically. After all, Kathy Castor did unleash the Union enforcers and it did result in some fisticuffing action.
| 46 |
jvic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:50:26am |
re: #6 Sharmuta
My stars! This is the face of current political debate in this country. We are well and truly screwed if we can't sit down and have a discussion like adult and rational people.
Yes, the country loses when we can't sit down for such discussions.
But does anyone benefit? IMO there is money to be made and power to be gotten from the chaos.
Cui bono?
| 48 |
VegasRick Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:50:44am |
This is pretty good
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
| 49 |
StillAMarine Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:51:18am |
The announcer says, "... both sides were heard." I suppose that means that the left failed in its attempt to stack the meeting. After all, they had a pack of people allowed in early, "...to help set up the meeting." I cannot imagine those setting up the meeting were anything but Democrat supporters.
Has anyone seen more evidence on the identity of the helpers?
| 50 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:51:58am |
It's becoming increasingly clear that conservatives can't be saved from themselves. The overwhelming support for these temper tantrums is just another sign that the adults aren't in charge. I guess this just has to run its course.
| 51 |
Spider Mensch Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:52:09am |
man, things are soo much better now that obama is president, there's just so much more harmony in America than there was under Bush...
/
| 52 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:52:09am |
re: #26 Baier
Agreed, I was just being inappropriately silly. I'm worried too that fighting the the streets will replace rational verbal discord.
a real possibility...the democrats and BO better back down...bad shit can happen real fast
| 53 |
Ward Cleaver Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:52:16am |
re: #1 pat
Instigated, I believe. The new Obama strategy: shut the public up with intimidation and violence.
Elections have consequences.
/drcordell
| 54 |
Curt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:52:19am |
re: #47 HelloDare
Beers at the White House for everyone.
Except Joe...he will take an NA...
(which is fine...nice to see him stand his ground, however small it seems)
| 55 |
VegasRick Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:52:35am |
re: #47 HelloDare
Beers at the White House for everyone.
"Teachable Moments"
*these people are a fucking joke.
| 56 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:52:35am |
re: #28 Sharmuta
Did they whip up frenzied mobs to attack their fellow citizens?
Unfortunately, it has happened from time to time in the US.
From the Boston Tea Party to the Haymarket Riot to the recent protests against the BART Police shooting, we have a long history resorting to fists to solve political debates.
| 57 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:52:37am |
The goons have been called on the protesters. If Obama does not denounce the thuggery, then he's complicit.
| 58 |
Ringo the Gringo Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:53:02am |
Chicago style politics coming to a town near you.
| 59 |
Ward Cleaver Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:53:08am |
| 60 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:53:15am |
re: #30 Charles
I stand corrected. Obama's deputy chief of staff said that. Where exactly did Messina get the authorization to say that? Or was he speaking out of turn?
If he was authorized to say that, then that means that Rahm (Messina's immediate boss) approved, and Rahm answers directly to Obama.
You're right that he was directing this to the Democrat caucus which has been getting hammered at these town hall gatherings over their support for health care, but the notion of dishing things out seems to have been taken literally by some of Obama's supporters.
| 61 |
SixDegrees Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:53:56am |
re: #41 VioletTiger
Maybe this one?:
No; this is the same as others. There are odd cutouts scattered throughout that trouble me.
| 62 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:53:59am |
re: #44 filetandrelease
No, they handled the matter like grown ups. (JK) My point perhaps not clearly made is that political discourse in the country has a history of being unruly.
Naturally- as politics deals with the nature and egos of man. But we're also supposed to be a civilized people. Politicians don't draw pistols at dawn any more. I do realize that politics has always been a dirty affair, but surely these last few years have not been stellar examples of cooler heads prevailing. It's sadly those with cooler heads that tend to get demonized for suggesting such things as calming down and being reasonable. You know it's bad when reasonableness is viewed as a liability.
| 63 |
VegasRick Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:54:04am |
re: #50 Killgore Trout
It's becoming increasingly clear that conservatives can't be saved from themselves. The overwhelming support for these temper tantrums is just another sign that the adults aren't in charge. I guess this just has to run its course.
KT. Please view my #48. I'd love to see your take.
| 64 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:54:17am |
re: #50 Killgore Trout
It's becoming increasingly clear that conservatives can't be saved from themselves. The overwhelming support for these temper tantrums is just another sign that the adults aren't in charge. I guess this just has to run its course.
And what about the fact that there were Democrats and union thugs who were dishing out the violence? That's not the conservatives in the wrong there...
| 65 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:54:24am |
re: #50 Killgore Trout
It's becoming increasingly clear that conservatives can't be saved from themselves. The overwhelming support for these temper tantrums is just another sign that the adults aren't in charge. I guess this just has to run its course.
People are angry and fed up. People are not being properly represented. The people are finally waking up and fighting for something they believe in... The violence aside, I think it's a step in the right direction.
If we don't stop this freight train now, it's over.
| 66 |
JohnAdams Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:54:26am |
re: #45 NukeAtomrod
Maybe Obama's supporters didn't grok that he was speaking metaphorically. After all, Kathy Castor did unleash the Union enforcers and it did result in some fisticuffing action.
Candidate Obama told his people to "get in their faces." That's pretty incendiary language, and not easily misconstrued.
| 67 |
Pullus Iulius Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:54:45am |
Maybe Messina actually said "Push back twice as hard."
Or perhaps "Putsch."
| 68 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:55:43am |
I disagree with the gentleman in the video who said it was no longer about healthcare. He is very wrong.
It is still about healthcare. It is about my desire not to have the government get involved in my healthcare. I could easily be at one of these townhalls (being polite, I hope), but it would be all about not wanting government where it doesn't belong.
| 69 |
itellu3times Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:55:45am |
| 70 |
opnion Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:56:20am |
re: #50 Killgore Trout
It's becoming increasingly clear that conservatives can't be saved from themselves. The overwhelming support for these temper tantrums is just another sign that the adults aren't in charge. I guess this just has to run its course.
Oh man, do you have the least bit of a problem with the Obama supporters thuggery?
| 71 |
NukeAtomrod Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:56:36am |
“If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard,” Messina said, according to an official who attended the meeting. He went on to say, "They're not gonna give up the fight, until one of you is dead. If they send one of yours to the hospital, you send one of theirs to the morgue!"
| 72 |
itellu3times Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:56:51am |
BTW, Rush is on a roll today.
Better than he's sounded in a year.
He has a real political issue to tear into, that's what he's good at and that's what he's doing.
| 73 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:56:56am |
re: #50 Killgore Trout
It's becoming increasingly clear that conservatives can't be saved from themselves. The overwhelming support for these temper tantrums is just another sign that the adults aren't in charge. I guess this just has to run its course.
Not just conservative there, Killgore. It takes two to have the type of fighting that was going on in the video. It is disgusting that both liberals and conservatives are having temper tantrums over the issue.
| 74 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:57:11am |
If the talking point is going to be that the demonstrators were just exercising their right to free speech and they were unjustly attacked by union thugs, I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna jump on that train.
There may have been union thugs there, but what I see in these videos of the event is a whole lot of people acting like idiots, shouting down speakers, ranting like loons, and behaving a lot like ... yes, a mob. A lot of those people clearly went there with the intention of disrupting the event.
| 75 |
HelloDare Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:57:17am |
The difference between the demonstrators and ones from MoveOn and ACORN? These are twenty years older and less intimidating. And mostly not organized.
| 76 |
VegasRick Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:57:35am |
re: #71 NukeAtomrod
“If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard,” Messina said, according to an official who attended the meeting. He went on to say, "They're not gonna give up the fight, until one of you is dead. If they send one of yours to the hospital, you send one of theirs to the morgue!"
I'd like to see that link.
| 77 |
karmic_inquisitor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:57:51am |
re: #28 Sharmuta
Did they whip up frenzied mobs to attack their fellow citizens?
Political mob shoving and shouting was fairly common in this country for a good part of our history.
Jules Verne even documented it in "Around The World in 80 Days"
Here is an interesting post I found regarding Verne's view of 19th century America.
As a quarante-huitard (a supporter of the ideals of the Revolution of 1848) and a strong believer in republicanism, Verne was both attracted to and amused by the American system of free-wheeling and passionately partisan politics. Note, for instance, that delightful episode in Around the World in 80 Days (1873), when Phileas Fogg and his travel companions come ashore in San Francisco amid what appeared to be a tumultuous street riot only to discover that it was, in reality, only a local election—ironically, for a justice of the peace! Or consider a similar scene in From the Earth to the Moon when President Barbicane of the Baltimore Gun Club wishes to make a speech, and the unruly crowd begins pushing against the gates, trying to get closer, all eager to find out what Barbicane had to say, elbowing their way forward, jostling, crushing each other with that freedom of action particular to a people nurtured on the idea of “self government.” (8)Refreshingly different from Europeans, Americans for Verne were an essentially logical and pramatic people who don’t stand on ceremony and never hesitate when making decisions: “A Yankee, as we know, does not waste time beating around the bush. He takes one path only, and usually the one that goes straight to his goal” (Robur 9). They make especially successful businessmen, entrepreneurs, and industrialists:
Everyone knows that Yankees are born traders; wherever fate sends them, from the arctic zone to the tropical, their business sense has to find to useful outlet (From the Earth 201-02)
These businessmen’s thirst for profit, the zeal with which they work, their need to extract money by every means that industry and speculation can discover, does not have the same repulsive aspect in the traders of the New World as it sometimes produces in their overseas counterparts. They act with a certain grandeur that is quite compelling. (“The Humbug” 162)
Further, by their emphasis on education—America is hailed as a land “where everyone knows how to read and write” (From the Earth 158)—as well as by their “can-do” temperament—“Impossible is not an American word” (Journey Through the Impossible 114)—Yankees make the world’s best engineers and builders. For Americans, no construction project can ever be too large or too difficult:
[Link: jv.gilead.org.il...]
| 78 |
Racer X Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:58:04am |
Hello Teabaggers!
and Hi to you Teabaggees too.
| 79 |
doppelganglander Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:58:11am |
re: #48 VegasRick
This is pretty good
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
"Infiltrated?" Attending a public event with your own congressperson is now "infiltrating?" That's just disgusting.
I'm pleased to see the Fox News reporter is familiar with the Alinsky method.
| 80 |
JohnAdams Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:58:21am |
re: #65 tfc3rid
People are angry and fed up. People are not being properly represented. The people are finally waking up and fighting for something they believe in... The violence aside, I think it's a step in the right direction.
If we don't stop this freight train now, it's over.
The fact remains that the exact status quo we have in our health care system is the result of decades of specific decisions, some right, some wrong, that in total add up to the current state. Is it perfect? No, but it is pretty damn good. Where are the children keeling over in the streets? The idea that this unresponsive Congress is ready to scrap the whole thing and institute a radical, ground-up system that they will control is deserving of an extremely passionate "NO!"
| 81 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:58:33am |
re: #63 VegasRick
KT. Please view my #48. I'd love to see your take.
I watched a little bit of it but I can't really stomach it this morning. It's not a reasonable conversation. Think about it: when Code Pink threw hissy fits at Iraq War hearings did it make you stop and think? Did it persuade you to consider their point? No. Like most reasonable people you cringed with embarrassment and possibly a little glee as the screaming maniac was dragged kicking and screaming out of the room. This is no different. It's a turn off to reasonable people. This hysteria is going to have to stop eventually. I just can't listen to it anymore.
| 82 |
Ringo the Gringo Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:58:39am |
re: #74 Charles
If the talking point is going to be that the demonstrators were just exercising their right to free speech and they were unjustly attacked by union thugs, I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna jump on that train.
There may have been union thugs there, but what I see in these videos of the event is a whole lot of people acting like idiots, shouting down speakers, ranting like loons, and behaving a lot like ... yes, a mob.
It's going to get worse...I'm sorry to say.
| 83 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:59:02am |
re: #64 lawhawk
And what about the fact that there were Democrats and union thugs who were dishing out the violence? That's not the conservatives in the wrong there...
I believe it's because the discourse has been poisoned equally on both sides. Everything in politics seems so partisan and polarizing, and there are certainly those who benefit from maintaining a poisoned well. I think it's altogether bad for this country to have so many feel their fellow citizens are evil, and there's plenty of blame to spread all around.
| 84 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:59:13am |
re: #80 JohnAdams
The fact remains that the exact status quo we have in our health care system is the result of decades of specific decisions, some right, some wrong, that in total add up to the current state. Is it perfect? No, but it is pretty damn good. Where are the children keeling over in the streets? The idea that this unresponsive Congress is ready to scrap the whole thing and institute a radical, ground-up system that they will control is deserving of an extremely passionate "NO!"
I could not agree more...
| 85 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Aug 7, 2009 10:59:22am |
| 86 |
opnion Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:00:17am |
re: #57 rightymouse
The goons have been called on the protesters. If Obama does not denounce the thuggery, then he's complicit.
This couldn't happen without tacit approval from the White House.
This my friends is the Chicago Way. Now the whole ugly thing is out there for the nation to see.
| 87 |
NukeAtomrod Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:00:27am |
re: #76 VegasRick
I'd like to see that link.
[Link: www.politico.com...] + [Link: www.imdb.com...] = ;)
| 88 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:00:37am |
re: #81 Killgore Trout
I watched a little bit of it but I can't really stomach it this morning. It's not a reasonable conversation. Think about it: when Code Pink threw hissy fits at Iraq War hearings did it make you stop and think? Did it persuade you to consider their point? No. Like most reasonable people you cringed with embarrassment and possibly a little glee as the screaming maniac was dragged kicking and screaming out of the room. This is no different. It's a turn off to reasonable people. This hysteria is going to have to stop eventually. I just can't listen to it anymore.
Understood but a lot of what Code Pinko was putting out there was the George Bush is war criminal, War for oil meme...
This is a legitimate political and national issue and the counter argument is more than legitimate...
| 89 |
doppelganglander Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:00:40am |
re: #74 Charles
If the talking point is going to be that the demonstrators were just exercising their right to free speech and they were unjustly attacked by union thugs, I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna jump on that train.
There may have been union thugs there, but what I see in these videos of the event is a whole lot of people acting like idiots, shouting down speakers, ranting like loons, and behaving a lot like ... yes, a mob.
It's impossible to tell from the edited footage what preceded the outbursts.
Also, WRT my #79, Alinsky was referenced by a Fox News contributor, not a reporter. My mistake.
| 90 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:01:00am |
Huh, drama on both sides of this issue, screaming matches, interruptions, fear not being heard, and overall anger boiling over into mob mentality. I'll just lay down and stare at the clouds to clear the mind. Why? Why not?
| 91 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:01:01am |
This is a fantastic example of media spin. Really terrific.
| 92 |
Curt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:01:12am |
The amazing thing is the definite moves by the Democrats to shut down debate, be it in Congress, on the web, in Town Hall meetings, or...by using the MSM, then actually demonizing, from the Press Secretary's podium, those who have a differing view, as though that is no longer acceptable.
Not to excuse any battery incidents at all, but how does someone let the representative government officials know what they think/want/have to say, when you are locked out/shut down and left to writing emails that well be cherry picked and few will ever know what the ratio of for/against is?
I see this as much a reaction to access to those who we pay the salary to represent us trying to avoid us, or manage the audience to meet their view.
If Congress would act like adults, and the President and his staff would act like adults, and recognize there are differing opinions, then...I think we'd have a debate, and not just a cram job.
It used to matter, what the poll numbers said, so long as they told you GWB was bad and The WON was universally loved (well...minus a few pts). Now, they don't roll out poll numbers, just invectives at those on the side of the bigger numbers, for it doesn't suit their purposes for wielding power.
2010 may be a big swing back to the right, for the momentum of a pendulum does not allow it to stop when it gets to the middle on the first movement.
| 94 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:01:39am |
I think this is what happens when you constantly demonize your opposition.
Democrats don't want to kill grandma any more than Newt Gingrich wanted to poison drinking water.
| 95 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:01:39am |
| 96 |
OldLineTexan Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:01:50am |
re: #6 Sharmuta
My stars! This is the face of current political debate in this country. We are well and truly screwed if we can't sit down and have a discussion like adult and rational people.
Did you read Castor's reaction? It's a conspiracy.
| 97 |
VegasRick Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:01:58am |
re: #87 NukeAtomrod
[Link: www.politico.com...] + [Link: www.imdb.com...] = ;)
Thank you. looking now.
| 98 |
HelloDare Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:02:07am |
| 99 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:02:08am |
re: #88 tfc3rid
This is a legitimate political and national issue and the counter argument is more than legitimate...
It's every bit as valid. Just because this is conservatives doesn't magically make it any better.
| 100 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:02:15am |
OT--looking at the drudge page, and two headlines merged to become:
Michael Jackson gave cat sedatives before death...
Poor cat.
| 101 |
OldLineTexan Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:02:29am |
re: #94 Sharmuta
I think this is what happens when you constantly demonize your opposition.
Democrats don't want to kill grandma any more than Newt Gingrich wanted to poison drinking water.
So the "anti" side has been proven to have started it?
| 102 |
filetandrelease Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:02:51am |
re: #62 Sharmuta
In general I agree. Although, I posed the question earlier, sincerely, are these tactics, however unorganized, effective in changing the out come of the health bill? Of course we will see, but it seems to me that a serious point of contention is being made, perhaps lacking in details.
| 103 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:02:59am |
Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck both urged listeners to attend this town hall meeting, by the way.
| 105 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:03:30am |
Hey... This looks like what could have happened on primary day at any of the caucus states last year. Same t-shirts and thuggery... different logos. Instead of Hillary supporters you have Nobamacare folks.
Way to keep up the tradition...
| 106 |
VioletTiger Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:03:36am |
I think it is fair to ask the question 'why are people getting so riled up?'
I think part of the reason is the haste in which this bill is getting rammed through. I think the polls reflect the opinion that is being expressed in the town halls. This is too important an issue to go straight to the answer without any debate. There is also a sense that Congress is not listening to their constituents. It happened with the stimulus, then the omnibus, then cap and trade. People are desperately trying to protect something here and fear is leading to tempers.
The Dem's seem to have interpreted the elections results as 'do whatever you want to do, it's your agenda'. People are not completely on board with that. What would simmer down the debate to reasonable and productive is to have Obama ask everyone to stand down on their anger, stop demonizing the opposition and assure the American people that the debate will continue and all voices will be heard. He represents all of the American people, not just his loyal followers. Of course, non of this will likely happen.
| 107 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:03:42am |
| 108 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:03:52am |
re: #86 opnion
This couldn't happen without tacit approval from the White House.
This my friends is the Chicago Way. Now the whole ugly thing is out there for the nation to see.
As far as I can see, it's the Dems who ratcheting up the frustration level by a) encouraging thuggery by unions and b) shutting the town hall doors to people who just want to be heard.
| 109 |
opnion Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:04:09am |
re: #75 HelloDare
The difference between the demonstrators and ones from MoveOn and ACORN? These are twenty years older and less intimidating. And mostly not organized.
Exactly, there was no violence until the SEIU thugs were unleashed by the White House.
Many , maybe most of the protestors are Medicare Benificiaries, who fear that savings will come from rationing care to them.
| 110 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:04:33am |
re: #103 Charles
Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck both urged listeners to attend this town hall meeting, by the way.
Many more than that... But Glenn Beck this morning was saddened that violence resulted from it. Never, ever has he advocated violence to b heard.
| 111 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:04:40am |
re: #82 Ringo the Gringo
It's going to get worse...I'm sorry to say.
It's going to get a lot worse because now Obama is calling for his leftist (and traditionally violent) groups to go "get in their faces."
Hello, Fire - meet Mr. Gasoline.
| 112 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:04:46am |
re: #89 doppelganglander
It's impossible to tell from the edited footage what preceded the outbursts.
Also, WRT my #79, Alinsky was referenced by a Fox News contributor, not a reporter. My mistake.
I've seen five or six videos of the event now, and it's exceedingly obvious that a lot of the demonstrators showed up with the intention to disrupt the meeting, and had no interest in any kind of dialog at all.
| 113 |
NukeAtomrod Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:04:47am |
| 114 |
JohnAdams Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:05:12am |
re: #95 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
AARP Organizers Cancel ‘Listening Session’ After Participants Refuse to ‘Keep Their Comments Quiet’
Another case of The Employee (AARP) shutting out the The Employer (the members). Like Congress treats the American people, in other words.
| 115 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:05:12am |
Obama won the election by keeping the details of his plans out of the debate. He might have won, but his agenda didn't.
| 116 |
Curt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:05:18am |
re: #86 opnion
This couldn't happen without tacit approval from the White House.
This my friends is the Chicago Way. Now the whole ugly thing is out there for the nation to see.
You know...GWB used to be in control of EVERYTHING the Government and Government employees, or Republicans, or Talk Show Hosts did/said...
Now..The WON...well...he's just cluelss...let me fix that...he always been clueless.
| 117 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:05:19am |
re: #110 tfc3rid
Many more than that... But Glenn Beck this morning was saddened that violence resulted from it. Never, ever has he advocated violence to b heard.
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more.
| 118 |
SFGoth Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:05:34am |
re: #20 Charles
"Punch back twice as hard" was NOT an instruction to demonstrators. He was speaking metaphorically about "hitting back" at critics of the health plan.
Drudge is playing a little fast and loose with the truth there.
"Ratings". If he called everything spot on and boring it would really be a drudge report.
| 119 |
Ringo the Gringo Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:05:35am |
President Obama has promised to fundamentally change America, that doesn't sit well with a whole lot of people, myself included
Violence is unacceptable, but, in a free country, I don't see any way to avoid the shouting.
| 120 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:05:45am |
extreme liberalism takes away choices, and erodes liberty...people become angry and they yell at each other or worse...I'm not surprised at all but I don't like seeing it happen...anybody could have seen this coming down the road...Americans have not lost their identity or their heritage and only a fool like BO and his minions would not understand this simple fact
| 122 |
doppelganglander Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:06:03am |
re: #112 Charles
I've seen five or six videos of the event now, and it's exceedingly obvious that a lot of the demonstrators showed up with the intention to disrupt the meeting, and had no interest in any kind of dialog at all.
Can you post links to those videos please? I'd very much like to see unedited, or differently edited, video.
| 123 |
VioletTiger Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:06:10am |
re: #100 EmmmieG
OT--looking at the drudge page, and two headlines merged to become:
Michael Jackson gave cat sedatives before death...
Poor cat.
Apparently, the cat was a p0rn downloader./
| 124 |
Dar ul Harb Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:06:31am |
re: #32 JammieWearingFool
Community organizers don't like it when communities organize.
Not on their own, anyway. Makes them feel inadequate.
| 125 |
HelloDare Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:06:34am |
re: #109 opnion
Exactly, there was no violence until the SEIU thugs were unleashed by the White House.
Many , maybe most of the protestors are Medicare Benificiaries, who fear that savings will come from rationing care to them.
That's not the point I was making.
| 126 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:06:52am |
re: #123 VioletTiger
Apparently, the cat was a p0rn downloader./
A thousand ways to like these, but I shall refrain.
| 127 |
Curt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:06:53am |
re: #103 Charles
Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck both urged listeners to attend this town hall meeting, by the way.
I'm not sure if there is an implication, or a matter of actual fact. Aren't town hall meeting for the purpose of being attended?
| 128 |
VegasRick Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:07:02am |
re: #107 Killgore Trout
Pelosi Protesters, Including Kid In Stroller, Compare Obama To Hitler
You sure do link a lot of stuff from daily kooks and huffpo lately.
| 129 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:07:06am |
re: #117 Charles
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more.
Wow... Do you think they are advocating violence? Or participatory government?
| 130 |
BlueCanuck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:07:08am |
re: #108 rightymouse
As far as I can see, it's the Dems who ratcheting up the frustration level by a) encouraging thuggery by unions and b) shutting the town hall doors to people who just want to be heard.
To be fair. The doors were shut by police officers because the hall was over filled. It wasn't done to keep people from being heard.
| 131 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:07:33am |
re: #122 doppelganglander
Can you post links to those videos please? I'd very much like to see unedited, or differently edited, video.
Videos of the meeting:
[Link: www.google.com...]
| 132 |
VegasRick Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:07:34am |
| 134 |
SFGoth Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:07:59am |
re: #123 VioletTiger
Apparently, the cat was a p0rn downloader./
Every cat has its own definition of porn. My kitty's definition is a bowl of tuna juice. I've never seen such an excited cat.
| 135 |
Racer X Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:08:10am |
Obama sure is doing a great job of uniting the country eh?
And I'm sure none of this is his fault. The blame is strictly on those damn teabaggers (anyone who opposes Obama's policies).
I saw a great cartoon yesterday - 4 seniors at a town hall meeting - one in a walker. The congressman whispers to his aide "we gotta cut this short, this mob is getting out of control".
| 136 |
opnion Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:08:13am |
re: #99 Killgore Trout
It's every bit as valid. Just because this is conservatives doesn't magically make it any better.
Kilgore, who do you really think were the thugs here, the elderly protestors like the guy with the ripped shirt or the SEIU bullys?
I don't see them as morally equivalent.
| 137 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:08:18am |
re: #130 BlueCanuck
To be fair. The doors were shut by police officers because the hall was over filled. It wasn't done to keep people from being heard.
Just a by-product of the action. And agreed.
| 138 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:08:22am |
re: #103 Charles
Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck both urged listeners to attend this town hall meeting, by the way.
I listen to Rush every day. I don't recall him mention this specific town hall and encouraging people to go (or to go and get into fights at all).
Reference, or audio?
| 139 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:08:38am |
re: #130 BlueCanuck
To be fair. The doors were shut by police officers because the hall was over filled. It wasn't done to keep people from being heard.
And in STL, they were alowing SEIU members to enter via a side 'Handicap' entrance while folks were not allowed in the front doors...
| 141 |
VioletTiger Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:09:33am |
re: #134 SFGoth
Every cat has its own definition of porn. My kitty's definition is a bowl of tuna juice. I've never seen such an excited cat.
Kitteh crack.
| 142 |
Curt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:09:54am |
re: #107 Killgore Trout
Pelosi Protesters, Including Kid In Stroller, Compare Obama To Hitler
In old news...Pelosi said protesters showed up in Brooks Brothers suits and had swatikas.
Who's word has more impact across the media/nation/world? A kid in a stroller, or the Speaker of the House of the United States of America?
Just checking, so I know how to weigh the value of the news...
| 143 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:10:10am |
Normally this would be unwatchable but compared to the other videos I've watched this morning it's a palate cleanser...
Orly Taitz Highlights (MSNBC Meltdown Edition)
| 144 |
summergurl Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:10:13am |
People are disillusioned with Obama - they feel duped. Here they thought they voted for Mr. Hope and Change, and yet this guy states he doesn't have all the facts, that Gates is his friend, and the cops acted stupidly. Did I mention he prefaced this with "I don't have all the facts."? He is the result of our overcoming racial prejudices,to a great degree, not the one to bring about the change. Heath Insurance Reform is tipping the scales, just who are they insuring? Surely not the 16 million or so illegal aliens of the 46 million people they estimate that are uninsured right now. Those individuals still won't be covered and paying into the Government plan. We will still have to ante up for them. The Hammer makes sense.. tort reform and portable insurance - those are more reasonable steps than letting the Cash for Clunkers gurus // get their hands on our insurance
| 145 |
doppelganglander Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:10:21am |
| 146 |
Rexatosis Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:10:28am |
RE # 106 ViolentTiger
People tend to get a little PO'ed when their representatives pass or attempt to pass crappy bills the representative has never read and cannot defend.
| 147 |
moderndayprayer Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:10:30am |
| 148 |
JustABill Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:10:44am |
Has anyone thrown a pie at a congressman yet? How about Oreos?
| 149 |
opnion Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:10:45am |
re: #116 Curt
You know...GWB used to be in control of EVERYTHING the Government and Government employees, or Republicans, or Talk Show Hosts did/said...
Now..The WON...well...he's just cluelss...let me fix that...he always been clueless.
Right, Obama would never stack a room with SEIU thugs. Uh uh
He would denounce it, but the poor guy is just sooo confused
| 150 |
LC LaWedgie Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:10:46am |
re: #127 Curt
Aren't town hall meeting for the purpose of being attended?
Yes & No
peacful assembly and to come together with other individuals to collectively express, promote, pursue and defend common interests.
Only if you agree.
/
| 151 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:11:05am |
re: #130 BlueCanuck
To be fair. The doors were shut by police officers because the hall was over filled. It wasn't done to keep people from being heard.
Ok - change that to "filling the hall with their own people and leaving those who had been waiting to get in shut out."
| 152 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:11:14am |
re: #140 taxfreekiller
Looks a lot like say, Democrats in Chicago for a convention in 1968.
As I said before, this is nothing new or different. We've had a very long history of going to fisticuffs over political issues.
| 153 |
MandyManners Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:11:25am |
re: #142 Curt
In old news...Pelosi said protesters showed up in Brooks Brothers suits and had swatikas.
Who's word has more impact across the media/nation/world? A kid in a stroller, or the Speaker of the House of the United States of America?
Just checking, so I know how to weigh the value of the news...
How dare she slur those who wear Brooks Brothers' suits?! Madame, you cut me to the quick.
| 155 |
philip Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:11:49am |
I am a passionate advocate of universal healthcare but shouting at one another will never solve our differences.
They need to make the townhalls much bigger so they can fit all voices. There are millions of people who question the reforms and it is unfair to call them all astroturfers, though I suspect some of them are.
We should consider all sides in this debate. That's what true democracy is.
| 156 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:12:07am |
re: #148 JustABill
Has anyone thrown a pie at a congressman yet? How about Oreos?
Oreos were thrown at Michael Steele when he ran for the US Senate in Maryland.
| 157 |
pink freud Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:12:10am |
Some perspective from Noonan:
"What the town-hall meetings represent is a feeling of rebellion, an uprising against change they do not believe in. And the Democratic response has been stunningly crude and aggressive. It has been to attack. Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the United States House of Representatives, accused the people at the meetings of “carrying swastikas and symbols like that.” (Apparently one protester held a hand-lettered sign with a “no” slash over a swastika.) But they are not Nazis, they’re Americans. Some of them looked like they’d actually spent some time fighting Nazis…
All of this is unnecessarily and unhelpfully divisive and provocative. They are mocking and menacing concerned citizens. This only makes a hot situation hotter. Is this what the president wants? It couldn’t be. But then in an odd way he sometimes seems not to have fully absorbed the awesome stature of his office. You really, if you’re president, can’t call an individual American stupid, if for no other reason than that you’re too big. You cannot allow your allies to call people protesting a health-care plan “extremists” and “right wing,” or bought, or Nazi-like, either. They’re citizens. They’re concerned. They deserve respect."
| 158 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:12:14am |
re: #147 moderndayprayer
Kenneth Gladney a black man was racially targeted in St. Louis last night. 6 arrests were made. I assume the attack was racial because several SEIU members were reported as using racial slurs before attacking Gladney.
Two sources:
Here is a video of the attack.
| 159 |
opnion Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:12:19am |
re: #130 BlueCanuck
To be fair. The doors were shut by police officers because the hall was over filled. It wasn't done to keep people from being heard.
250 SEIU members came in through the back door , before the front door was open. This from eye witnesses.
| 160 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:12:34am |
Wait till you see the fights when Obama tries to euthanize people with appendicitis!
| 161 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:13:06am |
re: #156 Honorary Yooper
Oreos were thrown at Michael Steele when he ran for the US Senate in Maryland.
Such a waste of perfectly good cookies.
Does rational dialogue exist in public forums anymore?
| 162 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:13:09am |
re: #140 taxfreekiller
Looks a lot like say, Democrats in Chicago for a convention in 1968.
indeed amigo...was just thinking up a post about that...some people here have no idea...they were too young
| 163 |
apachegunner Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:13:30am |
re: #82 Ringo the Gringo
It's going to get worse...I'm sorry to say.
i could see that, a death to someone in attendance of a town hall meeting, either someone on the left or someone on the right. it will be blamed on nobamas oposition forces and cause all healthcare talk to stop, afterwhich it will be passed in the senate without vote, done by reconcillation and advanced to law. probably happen before the end of next week, unless the demoncrats call off all townhall meetings because of the distinct possibility of such a thing happening and the result of the bill will be the same.
| 164 |
Racer X Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:13:36am |
re: #156 Honorary Yooper
Oreos were thrown at Michael Steele when he ran for the US Senate in Maryland.
By those damn racist Republicans no doubt.
| 165 |
VioletTiger Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:13:37am |
re: #146 Rexatosis
RE # 106 ViolentTiger
People tend to get a little PO'ed when their representatives pass or attempt to pass crappy bills the representative has never read and cannot defend.
People sometimes shout when they don't think people are listening. It's the frustration of feeling ignored. Not saying it is right, but that is the way it is.
| 166 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:13:41am |
re: #152 Honorary Yooper
As I said before, this is nothing new or different. We've had a very long history of going to fisticuffs over political issues.
Yep. Come to think of it, we've even had a War over political issues. Pretty mild stuff, in comparison. Torn shirt? Ouchies.
| 167 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:13:51am |
About a decade ago we prided ourselves on being adults.
Guess those days are over.
| 168 |
Digital Display Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:14:01am |
re: #154 taxfreekiller
Obama is the leader, if so,you have his leadership on display.
Or
He is not a leader.
Choice.
I love ya TFK...
Obama is the leader of the free world...America elected a Rock Star for POTUS.
Nothing and I mean nothing will change that...See ya at the polls in 2012..
Dang it!
| 169 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:14:06am |
re: #74 Charles
If the talking point is going to be that the demonstrators were just exercising their right to free speech and they were unjustly attacked by union thugs, I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna jump on that train.
There may have been union thugs there, but what I see in these videos of the event is a whole lot of people acting like idiots, shouting down speakers, ranting like loons, and behaving a lot like ... yes, a mob. A lot of those people clearly went there with the intention of disrupting the event.
I agree, and they need to be removed when they do the shout down bit. This is a critical and contentious issue, and both sides have let their foaming dogs slip from the leash so they can stifle any moderate voices. I denounce the Pelosi plan that's creating this tension (meeting halls too small when they know a large crowd is coming for these issues, not enough security, blocking people out of meetings,) and the Republican "shout them down plan". The clear problem is there are a lot of people showing up who really do want to discuss, and both left and right fringes are suppressing that discussion.
The Dems can trot back to WA now and vote for what they were going to put through anyway after recess, and the crazies on the right can stir up more anger over it. It sucks all the way around.
| 170 |
SFGoth Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:14:33am |
Given that a lot of the pro-Obama vote was a protest against the GOP, this sorry stuff will not redound to his benefit. Anyone notice how sinister he looks when he makes that "fuck you to the gulag" face/sneer?
| 171 |
Ringo the Gringo Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:14:33am |
Here's the video from the Townhall imbroglio in St Louis yesterday, in which a man was asaulted by a SEIU union thug.
| 172 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:14:35am |
re: #165 VioletTiger
People sometimes shout when they don't think people are listening. It's the frustration of feeling ignored. Not saying it is right, but that is the way it is.
Especially in a group setting.
| 173 |
FrogMarch Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:14:39am |
I'll agree that the shouting and chanting are not helpful. but these folks are angry. What about shoving folks out the door and yanking of signs by the left? Filling rooms with union folks? The false accusations of pre-fab mobs?
A government official saying "push back twice as hard" are instructions, if you ask me.
| 174 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:15:10am |
re: #167 Sharmuta
About a decade ago we prided ourselves on being adults.
Guess those days are over.
those days come and go...your perspective depends on where you are in time
| 176 |
Rexatosis Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:15:12am |
I am sure the SEIU folks will be dealt with as sternly as the club wielding members of the New Black Panther Party at Philadelphia polling sites last November were.
(I'd add a sarc tag but unfortunately there ain't no sarc in the comment:(
| 178 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:15:26am |
re: #163 apachegunner
i could see that, a death to someone in attendance of a town hall meeting, either someone on the left or someone on the right. it will be blamed on nobamas oposition forces and cause all healthcare talk to stop, afterwhich it will be passed in the senate without vote, done by reconcillation and advanced to law. probably happen before the end of next week, unless the demoncrats call off all townhall meetings because of the distinct possibility of such a thing happening and the result of the bill will be the same.
Of course. And the killer will be an undercover Obamite posing as Pam Geller.
It's all part of the evil plot to thin the herd.
Euthanasia! FEMA camps! Snitchmail!
| 179 |
kansas Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:15:29am |
Didn't Pelosio compare attendees to Nazis before this? What was that about bringing a gun to a knife fight? I just can't keep all this straight.
| 180 |
Mullah Richard Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:15:55am |
I fear that there's too much time between now and the 2010 elections. Too many folks will go 'back to sleep'. Timing is everything and the political masters on the left know full well why they're pushing stuff so fast. It has little to do with any 'reading the bill' stuff. It has everything to do with the general population's attention span.
| 181 |
apachegunner Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:16:12am |
re: #85 Mad Al-Jaffee
Teabag her? I didn't even know her!
I don't think you can "teabag" a female Jaffee
| 182 |
NukeAtomrod Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:16:13am |
re: #167 Sharmuta
About a decade ago we prided ourselves on being adults.
Guess those days are over.
Sheesh! Where have you been! ;)
| 183 |
Curt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:16:29am |
re: #150 LC LaWedgie
Only if you agree.
/
Yes...like the "no notice" one in NYC area posted in the links earlier this morning?
I shoulda put my /sarc tag on, huh?
| 184 |
Ward Cleaver Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:16:38am |
re: #69 itellu3times
Beers at the town halls, hey?
How about everybody brings their old disco records, and we'll have a huge bonfire...
| 185 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:16:49am |
re: #160 Cato the Elder
Wait till you see the fights when Obama tries to euthanize people with appendicitis!
The FEMA camps are just to hold us for organ harvesting. DHS will sell the organs to illegal immigrants and the profits will go to funding Iran's nuclear program!
| 186 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:17:15am |
re: #161 MrSilverDragon
Such a waste of perfectly good cookies.
Does rational dialogue exist in public forums anymore?
No- not on the left or the right. Everyone wants to play toddler and pitch a hissy fit when they don't get their way and if an adult comes along to calm the situation down, they're demonized as a traitor.
| 187 |
JustABill Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:17:18am |
re: #156 Honorary Yooper
Oreos were thrown at Michael Steele when he ran for the US Senate in Maryland.
I mean by people protesting health care at the current town halls. Students have been throwing pies at conservatives for some time now, and you know about Steele and Oreos, these are physical assaults that were only barely covered, and then in jest by the media when they happened. Now, until very recently nothing physical happened and those trying to voice an opinion are mobs and a threat to democracy...
| 188 |
Racer X Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:17:30am |
| 189 |
opnion Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:17:37am |
re: #170 SFGoth
Given that a lot of the pro-Obama vote was a protest against the GOP, this sorry stuff will not redound to his benefit. Anyone notice how sinister he looks when he makes that "fuck you to the gulag" face/sneer?
IMO Obama can't handle dissent against him.
The protestors are boisterous which is not the same as the SEIU thugs administering a beat down, not even close.
| 190 |
NukeAtomrod Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:17:51am |
re: #181 apachegunner
I don't think you can "teabag" a female Jaffee
Sure you can. She just can't do it back.
| 191 |
wintercat Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:18:00am |
Maybe these protesters are feeling somewhat disenfranchised. People tend to overreact when they feel they are being ignored.
| 193 |
Racer X Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:18:13am |
re: #176 Rexatosis
I am sure the SEIU folks will be dealt with as sternly as the club wielding members of the New Black Panther Party at Philadelphia polling sites last November were.
(I'd add a sarc tag but unfortunately there ain't no sarc in the comment:(
All charges were dropped, iirc.
| 194 |
keithgabryelski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:18:13am |
re: #72 itellu3times
BTW, Rush is on a roll today.
Better than he's sounded in a year.
He has a real political issue to tear into, that's what he's good at and that's what he's doing.
I just listened to him for the last hour. Manufactured quotes with out of context audio.
Yeah, he's good at something... And that something is decreasing the discourse in America.
| 195 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:18:57am |
re: #161 MrSilverDragon
Such a waste of perfectly good cookies.
Does rational dialogue exist in public forums anymore?
I doubt it ever really existed in the first place. It seems to be merely a fascade.
| 196 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:19:00am |
re: #165 VioletTiger
People sometimes shout when they don't think people are listening. It's the frustration of feeling ignored. Not saying it is right, but that is the way it is.
I'm married, so I know exactly what you're talking about. :)
| 197 |
apachegunner Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:19:13am |
re: #103 Charles
Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck both urged listeners to attend this town hall meeting, by the way.
yes, but their directions were nothing like "get in their face" or "punch them twice as hard", I don't think I heard that part like I did on the administration side.
| 198 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:19:15am |
Yesterday Rush Limbaugh compared Obama to Mussolini; both he and Glenn Beck are regularly employing the Hitler/Nazi imagery.
| 199 |
Curt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:19:23am |
re: #155 philip
I am a passionate advocate of universal healthcare but shouting at one another will never solve our differences.
They need to make the townhalls much bigger so they can fit all voices. There are millions of people who question the reforms and it is unfair to call them all astroturfers, though I suspect some of them are.
We should consider all sides in this debate. That's what true democracy is.
Concur. Let's begin the discussion on the floors of an in the committee rooms of Congress, where the republicans are allowed to speak.
Then let's have the Congress people actually listen to what people wan tot say, not hide and have Union members sitting there to squelch any questions.
| 200 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:19:31am |
You ever wonder who people would be claiming their opponents were if the Nazis had never existed?
| 202 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:20:42am |
| 203 |
NukeAtomrod Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:20:50am |
re: #200 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
You ever wonder who people would be claiming their opponents were if the Nazis had never existed?
Either Gengis Khan or Jimmy Carter. It's a toss-up.
| 204 |
pink freud Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:21:14am |
re: #194 keithgabryelski
I find it interesting that -- despite the obvious effort to discredit him -- Rush still goes on, strong as ever -- possibly even stronger.
| 205 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:21:26am |
re: #203 NukeAtomrod
Either Gengis Khan or Jimmy Carter. It's a toss-up.
I was thinking Romans or Huns.
| 206 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:21:33am |
re: #198 Charles
Yesterday Rush Limbaugh compared Obama to Mussolini; both he and Glenn Beck are regularly employing the Hitler/Nazi imagery.
Uhm, that was satire. Maybe you missed it.
| 207 |
apachegunner Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:21:42am |
re: #178 Cato the Elder
Of course. And the killer will be an undercover Obamite posing as Pam Geller.
It's all part of the evil plot to thin the herd.
Euthanasia! FEMA camps! Snitchmail!
errr Cato, is that a positive or a negative?
| 208 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:21:49am |
re: #198 Charles
Yesterday Rush Limbaugh compared Obama to Mussolini; both he and Glenn Beck are regularly employing the Hitler/Nazi imagery.
That's really insulting to the victims of the real nazis.
| 209 |
HelloDare Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:21:52am |
Is there any spin about this happening because Obama is Black?
| 210 |
BlueCanuck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:21:54am |
re: #200 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
You ever wonder who people would be claiming their opponents were if the Nazis had never existed?
*snap* A neuron just short circuited...
| 211 |
MJ Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:21:57am |
re: #198 Charles
Yesterday Rush Limbaugh compared Obama to Mussolini; both he and Glenn Beck are regularly employing the Hitler/Nazi imagery.
Dems call on GOP to denounce Limbaugh’s Nazi remarks
August 7, 2009
WASHINGTON (JTA) -- The Democratic Party called on the top Republican Jewish lawmaker to repudiate Rush Limbaugh after the radio host likened Democrats to Nazis...
[Link: jta.org...]
[Link: jta.org...]
| 212 |
Racer X Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:21:59am |
re: #198 Charles
Yesterday Rush Limbaugh compared Obama to Mussolini; both he and Glenn Beck are regularly employing the Hitler/Nazi imagery.
It worked really well for the left didn't it?
( Results 1 - 10 of about 6,990,000 for bush hitler. (0.13 seconds)
| 213 |
AZDave Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:22:19am |
re: #68 EmmmieG
I disagree with the gentleman in the video who said it was no longer about healthcare. He is very wrong.
It is still about healthcare. It is about my desire not to have the government get involved in my healthcare. I could easily be at one of these townhalls (being polite, I hope), but it would be all about not wanting government where it doesn't belong.
You are absolutely correct!
| 214 |
opnion Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:22:19am |
I'll tell ya what, these gray panthers that are attacking these peaceful SEIU members are a menace to society.
| 215 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:22:32am |
re: #206 Noam Chumpski
Uhm, that was satire. Maybe you missed it.
That's what the left would say when we got pissed off at their imagery for Bush.
| 218 |
Creeping Eruption Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:23:23am |
OT: $500 Million Slated for Purchase of Eight More Planes for Congress
. . .and about that recession? Guess we will all need to tighten our belts a little bit more so these blood sucking ticks can travel in comfort on our dime.
| 219 |
JustABill Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:23:28am |
re: #200 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
You ever wonder who people would be claiming their opponents were if the Nazis had never existed?
Stalin, Mao. Of course, some might take that as a compliment.
| 220 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:23:37am |
re: #147 moderndayprayer
Nice photo at the first link, with someone holding up a sign that reads "Angry Mob".
Just WTF is wrong with these infantile, reactionary buffoons that makes them latch onto such phrases like "Angry Mob" or "Right Wing Extremist" and display them with pride?
What's next, "Enemy of the State" t-shirts? Or did Code Pink already snatch that one up?
| 221 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:23:38am |
re: #212 Racer X
6,070,000 for Obama Hitler
| 222 |
apachegunner Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:23:42am |
re: #190 NukeAtomrod
Sure you can. She just can't do it back.
it must be my yout Nuke, guess i really don't know what actually teabaggin is. don't worry, don't tell me, it might be embarrasing here
| 224 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:24:20am |
re: #208 Sharmuta
That's really insulting to the victims of the real nazis.
Yes, it is, and both sides are guilty of it. You have Rush and Beck comparing Obama to fascists, and you have Pelosi calling the protestors a bunch of fascists. Both are wrong, and both need to be called out for it.
| 225 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:24:23am |
re: #215 Sharmuta
That's what the left would say when we got pissed off at their imagery for Bush.
Your point? Either it's true, or it's not.
| 226 |
doppelganglander Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:24:36am |
This one has some interesting footage, apparently taken by an attendee. A minute or so in, you see a large man with a professional-looking camera videotaping the attendee, blocking his/her ability to videotape the speaker at the podium. Around 1:37, a large woman with a nametag (Karla H-something) wearing a t-shirt that says One Voice and something else also blocks the videotaper and shouts at her in a very intimidating fashion. She points at someone just behind the videographer and says "You are being juvenile, be quiet." They are chanting "You work for us."
It's hard to see, but apparently a couple of large men in Hawaiian shirts and name tags are shoving and manhandling a smaller man in his 40s in a green shirt. A woman around 40 or so tries to push herself between the man in green and the larger men. The two of them try to exit but can't. A police officer makes his way in, and the two big guys leave and shut the doors behind them. You can also see the man n the torn t-shirt from the news video.
Why do you suppose the professional-looking videographer was so intent on blocking the amateur and getting his/her face on tape? Who is Karla H.? Who are the big guys with nametags? They seemed to have some authority, or at least acted as if they did.
I see a lot of pissed off people who thought they'd have a chance to be heard and responded angrily to being silenced and intimidated.
| 227 |
Racer X Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:24:37am |
| 228 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:24:44am |
re: #185 Killgore Trout
The FEMA camps are just to hold us for organ harvesting. DHS will sell the organs to illegal immigrants and the profits will go to funding Iran's nuclear program!
Of course, but shhh! We're not supposed to know that until Phase 3.
| 229 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:25:08am |
re: #200 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
You ever wonder who people would be claiming their opponents were if the Nazis had never existed?
They would be comparing him to Stalin, the antiChrist, or Pol Pot in that case. Godwinian is as Godwinian does.
/ oh wait, some have already done that...
The sad fact is that this ain't even Obama - he's dependent on Nancy's staffers output for the healthcare plan, and probably has a lot less say in the final shape than some blue dogs.
/KT: just for your edification Nancy==Pelosi
| 230 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:25:21am |
| 231 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:25:42am |
re: #200 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
You ever wonder who people would be claiming their opponents were if the Nazis had never existed?
My vote is for Giant Panadas.
/
| 232 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:25:45am |
re: #202 MrSilverDragon
OMG that paid GOP hack baby! He's up to something!
You know, I've been thinking about it, and the more I think about it, the more I am inclined to believe... what that baby produces is probably more beneficial than what congress is producing.
| 233 |
VioletTiger Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:25:49am |
| 234 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:26:02am |
re: #221 Killgore Trout
6,070,000 for Obama Hitler
And there's still 6,940,000 for Bush Hitler.
What does this show? Neither side is interested in rational debate.
| 235 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:26:08am |
We do a very grave disservice to ourselves when we water down evil. And I say this to both sides. This constant demonizing is ugly.
| 236 |
HelloDare Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:26:10am |
re: #230 Killgore Trout
U.S. Stocks Gain, Treasuries Drop as Unemployment Rate Declines
Dow +169
Obviously these brawls are good for the economy.
| 237 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:26:35am |
| 238 |
MandyManners Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:26:42am |
re: #157 pink freud
What has been most unsettling is not the congressmen’s surprise but a hard new tone that emerged this week. The leftosphere and the liberal commentariat charged that the town hall meetings weren’t authentic, the crowds were ginned up by insurance companies, lobbyists and the Republican National Committee. But you can’t get people to leave their homes and go to a meeting with a congressman (of all people) unless they are engaged to the point of passion. And what tends to agitate people most is the idea of loss—loss of money hard earned, loss of autonomy, loss of the few things that work in a great sweeping away of those that don’t.
People are not automatons. They show up only if they care.
SNIP
If she keeps this up, I might have to start agreeing with her more.
| 240 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:27:02am |
re: #229 Thanos
/KT: just for your edification Nancy==Pelosi
I checked back in late last night and left you an apology for the misunderstanding last night. Sorry about that.
| 241 |
Curt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:27:25am |
re: #222 apachegunner
it must be my yout Nuke, guess i really don't know what actually teabaggin is. don't worry, don't tell me, it might be embarrasing here
Has to do with hangy down parts...And you sat in the front seat of AH-64s? DUDE!
| 242 |
AZDave Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:27:37am |
re: #80 JohnAdams
The fact remains that the exact status quo we have in our health care system is the result of decades of specific decisions, some right, some wrong, that in total add up to the current state. Is it perfect? No, but it is pretty damn good. Where are the children keeling over in the streets? The idea that this unresponsive Congress is ready to scrap the whole thing and institute a radical, ground-up system that they will control is deserving of an extremely passionate "NO!"
Make that a HELL NO! and you're right on.
| 243 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:27:49am |
When are people going to learn that dragging Hitler into it makes them look stupid?
| 244 |
The Other Les Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:27:55am |
re: #1 pat
Instigated, I believe. The new Obama strategy: shut the public up with intimidation and violence.
The alternative to civil discourse is civil war.
Violence against the productive population is part of the normal behavior of those who believe in the moral primacy of the parasites.
My wealth is spear and sword, the stout shield which protects my flesh; with this I plough, with this I reap, with this I tread the sweet wine of the grape, with this I am the entitled master of the serfs.
-- Cretan Warrior (Quoted by John Keegan in A HISTORY OF WARFARE, page 242)
It's an old story.
| 245 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:28:06am |
re: #231 Idle Drifter
My vote is for Giant Panadas.
/
With their wee beady eyes, you know they're plotting something
| 247 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:28:11am |
re: #230 Killgore Trout
U.S. Stocks Gain, Treasuries Drop as Unemployment Rate Declines
Dow +169
ANGRY MOBS DRIVE MARKETS THROUGH THE ROOF!
| 248 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:28:20am |
re: #235 Sharmuta
We do a very grave disservice to ourselves when we water down evil. And I say this to both sides. This constant demonizing is ugly.
Most agreed. I was thinking that eight years ago, and I still think that now.
| 249 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:28:22am |
re: #221 Killgore Trout
6,070,000 for Obama Hitler
Ah, but take out the word Bush from that search, and it drops down to 2.1 million or so.
Advanced google-fu.
BTW, do the same search for bush and hitler, but not Obama, and you get...
| 250 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:28:30am |
re: #240 Killgore Trout
I checked back in late last night and left you an apology for the misunderstanding last night. Sorry about that.
Np, like I said it's a contentious but critical debate. Tempers flare, it's sadly one of the ways democracy works. We will muddle through ...
| 251 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:28:49am |
re: #235 Sharmuta
We do a very grave disservice to ourselves when we water down evil. And I say this to both sides. This constant demonizing is ugly.
By watering down evil, I take you to mean devaluing the term by constantly comparing things we disagree with to the guy with the horns or the one with the toothbrush mustache?
I couldn't agree more. One hundred updings.
| 252 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:28:51am |
re: #225 Noam Chumpski
Your point? Either it's true, or it's not.
My point was that you sounded like a lefty using the "satire" excuse and it's true.
| 254 |
The Other Les Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:29:26am |
re: #6 Sharmuta
My stars! This is the face of current political debate in this country. We are well and truly screwed if we can't sit down and have a discussion like adult and rational people.
They are not rational.
| 257 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:30:21am |
re: #245 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
With their wee beady eyes, you know they're plotting something
They just sit there eating bamboo. What are they planning?/
| 258 |
Oh no...Sand People! Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:30:29am |
re: #230 Killgore Trout
U.S. Stocks Gain, Treasuries Drop as Unemployment Rate Declines
Dow +169
That's good news, but don't worry, Obama will put a stop to that.
| 259 |
dwells38 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:30:43am |
re: #208 Sharmuta
Yes we get that Glenn Beck is a weepy, drama queen and Rush Limbaugh a bombastic blustery blowhard and both are gleefully exploiting this for fun and profit.
No one disputes that. But why isn't there more outrage that Nancy Pelosi, a supposed stateswoman leader in her party makes outright fabrications that the protesters are sporting swastikas?
Maybe she should apologize to holocaust victim.
| 260 |
wintercat Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:31:06am |
re: #198 Charles
Yesterday Rush Limbaugh compared Obama to Mussolini; both he and Glenn Beck are regularly employing the Hitler/Nazi imagery.
Using Hitler comparisons to insult and deride an American president is not new. One can just Google Bush Hitler and see how much hatred that man endured. (I was not a Bush fan, btw.) Pages and pages of websites spewing that crap. It was disgusting then and it is equally disgusting now. I think all sides need to drop that stuff pronto.
| 261 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:31:15am |
re: #200 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
You ever wonder who people would be claiming their opponents were if the Nazis had never existed?
Apes and pigs? Oh, wait.. already covered.
| 262 |
SummerSong Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:31:20am |
re: #230 Killgore Trout
U.S. Stocks Gain, Treasuries Drop as Unemployment Rate Declines
Dow +169
Watching it. I'm trying to decide if I should take profits today...
| 264 |
BlueCanuck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:31:30am |
re: #254 The Other Les
They are not rational.
Actually, is political debate ever rational? I don't seem to remember it ever being a calm enterprise ever. Including all nations histories.
| 267 |
Land Shark Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:31:50am |
re: #141 VioletTiger
Kitteh crack.
You should see my Russian Blue cat with a candy wrapper. She can be at it for hours.
| 268 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:31:52am |
re: #252 Sharmuta
My point was that you sounded like a lefty using the "satire" excuse and it's true.
He says that it was satire. Outside of calling him a liar, I have little option other than to say it was Satire.
:) Don't call me a Lefty or say that I sound like one. It feels like you're accusing me of pedophilia or something; it's creepy.
| 269 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:31:54am |
re: #248 Honorary Yooper
Most agreed. I was thinking that eight years ago, and I still think that now.
worst I've ever seen was BDS...by far
| 270 |
keithgabryelski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:32:08am |
re: #198 Charles
Yesterday Rush Limbaugh compared Obama to Mussolini; both he and Glenn Beck are regularly employing the Hitler/Nazi imagery.
Today Rush was claiming Pelosi was calling protesters nazis. Then pulled out some audio where she was obviously revering to protesters WITH swatstikas on their sign (which were probably revering to President Obama, the congress or the bill)
he reminds me of schoolyard kids that pass rumors hoping to watch a fight. "David said your mother was ..."
| 271 |
karmic_inquisitor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:32:21am |
re: #249 lawhawk
Ah, but take out the word Bush from that search, and it drops down to 2.1 million or so.
Advanced google-fu.
BTW, do the same search for bush and hitler, but not Obama, and you get...
"Facts are stubborn things"
| 272 |
equable Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:32:35am |
Hey if they couldn't be bothered to read the bill, what do they expect? There's more on the line here than most people even realize.
| 273 |
Curt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:32:48am |
re: #266 Sharmuta
Who is "they"?
The people making "fishy" emails and web postings? "They" seem to be the "real" problem...ask the communications Director...if you dare.
| 274 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:33:04am |
re: #266 Sharmuta
Who is "they"?
Human beings. Humans are not completely rational, and never have been.
| 275 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:33:09am |
re: #249 lawhawk
Oh, and running that search can't discriminate between the Bush haters (or Obama haters) and those who make mention of Bush and/or Obama and Hitler to derisively slam the usage. I'm sure this posting would be added to that tally of Bush/Hitler postings, except that it's critical of the connection.
| 276 |
filetandrelease Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:33:17am |
To me the bigger question is to the effectiveness of these disruptions rather than the disruptions them selves. If it derails the fastrack Obamacare package, hurray for the angry!
| 277 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:33:31am |
Arafat-Israel murder conspiracy is back from the dead
The mystery surrounding the 2004 death of Yasser Arafat, at the Percy military hospital near Paris, continues to hover over Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. The sixth Fatah convention on Thursday made no official decision about his death. But more than 2,000 delegates rose to applaud the late leader's nephew Nasser al-Kidwa, former PLO ambassador to the UN, when he demanded the congress officially denounce Israel for being behind the "assassination" of the late PA chairman.
The affair resurfaced in the Palestinian discourse a few weeks ago in the wake of accusations by PLO enfant terrible Farouk Kaddoumi, head of the organization's state department. Kaddoumi accused Arafat's successor, PA chairman Mahmoud Abbas and PA senior official Mohamed Dahlan, of conspiring with Israel to murder Arafat.
This accusation is groundless. Even if one believes the allegations against Israel, the thought that then-prime minister Ariel Sharon enlisted senior Palestinian figures to plot against Arafat defies all reason. But Kaddoumi's accusations were enough to ignite a lively argument in the Arab world, and al-Kidwa's declaration Thursday fell on fertile ground.
| 278 |
eschew_obfuscation Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:33:44am |
re: #81 Killgore Trout
I watched a little bit of it but I can't really stomach it this morning. It's not a reasonable conversation. Think about it: when Code Pink threw hissy fits at Iraq War hearings did it make you stop and think? Did it persuade you to consider their point? No. Like most reasonable people you cringed with embarrassment and possibly a little glee as the screaming maniac was dragged kicking and screaming out of the room. This is no different. It's a turn off to reasonable people. This hysteria is going to have to stop eventually. I just can't listen to it anymore.
I think this is first and foremost about sending congressional representatives the message that the people are demanding to be represented rather than told to shut up because they don't know what they're talking about.
It's demanding to be listened to, not ignored.
If this were only a few rabble rousers "sent" to cause disruption,
a) large portions of the audiences would not be agreeing with them
b) polls wouldn't indicate significant opposition to the legislation as it's been discussed.
| 279 |
apachegunner Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:33:56am |
re: #241 Curt
Has to do with hangy down parts...And you sat in the front seat of AH-64s? DUDE!
| 281 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:34:47am |
re: #259 dwells38
Yes we get that Glenn Beck is a weepy, drama queen and Rush Limbaugh a bombastic blustery blowhard and both are gleefully exploiting this for fun and profit.
No one disputes that. But why isn't there more outrage that Nancy Pelosi, a supposed stateswoman leader in her party makes outright fabrications that the protesters are sporting swastikas?
Maybe she should apologize to holocaust victim.
I agree. Perhaps if both sides weren't exploiting the imagery, one of them would have an intellectually honest leg on which to stand.
| 282 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:35:50am |
re: #257 Idle Drifter
They just sit there eating bamboo. What are they planning?/
And they're from China! Communists!
| 283 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:36:00am |
re: #278 eschew_obfuscation
I think this is first and foremost about sending congressional representatives the message that the people are demanding to be represented rather than told to shut up because they don't know what they're talking about.
It's demanding to be listened to, not ignored.
If this were only a few rabble rousers "sent" to cause disruption,
a) large portions of the audiences would not be agreeing with them
b) polls wouldn't indicate significant opposition to the legislation as it's been discussed.
and to continue to promote bad, and dangerous legislation in spite of it all, I would consider that irrational...when you are elected to represent the voters and you ignore their interests, that is irrational
| 284 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:36:05am |
re: #206 Noam Chumpski
Uhm, that was satire. Maybe you missed it.
Sure. So I suppose I can call just about any woman that "special word" that all women hate, and excuse it away by saying "Hey, don't be angry, I was only kidding".
/yeah, right
| 285 |
MandyManners Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:36:09am |
re: #255 Rocko
The Great Unifier strikes again.
The only folks he is interested in unifying are those already on his side. Remember, he's in constant campaign mode.
| 286 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:36:42am |
re: #276 filetandrelease
IT's not going to, the angry needs to stop. Our only hope is to influence since we have exactly zero power on the hill right now. The only reason Healthcare is on the rocks right now is because of the blue dogs - if they come away from recess thinking that the other side of the debate is insane, or if the protests against this get way out of hand then they will crumble on their opposition when they return to the hill after recess. Nancy P. knows this, and that's why she's gleefully encouraging the "mob" framing of this.
| 287 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:36:49am |
re: #262 SummerSong
Watching it. I'm trying to decide if I should take profits today...
I really surprised that we've held on to so many gains already. I think there will be corrections along the way but I have no idea when we'll see them. At least the panic is out of the market.
| 288 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:37:21am |
re: #282 Mad Al-Jaffee
And they're from China! Communists!
I forgot about the Red Panadas! Sure they claim to be on the endangered species list but I say better dead than red. Lock and load!
///just in case///
| 289 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:37:39am |
All over the right wing blogs I'm seeing people make excuses for the behavior of the demonstrators.
Are people trying to make things worse? How is it going to help anything if the meetings that are supposed to promote dialog turn into shoving and shouting matches?
| 290 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:38:01am |
re: #282 Mad Al-Jaffee
And they're from China! Communists!
They've infiltrated major cities, are leaching off us for their food, healthcare and living space as the slowly build their numbers. Why could we not see it before?
| 291 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:38:21am |
re: #284 Slumbering Behemoth
Sure. So I suppose I can call just about any woman that "special word" that all women hate, and excuse it away by saying "Hey, don't be angry, I was only kidding".
/yeah, right
Sounds like a personal issue.
| 293 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:39:00am |
re: #289 Charles
All over the right wing blogs I'm seeing people make excuses for the behavior of the demonstrators.
Are people trying to make things worse? How is it going to help anything if the meetings that are supposed to promote dialog turn into shoving and shouting matches?
The ones who are getting out of hand need to be calmed by our side, it's stupid to encourage Code Pink behavior on the right.
| 294 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:39:13am |
re: #292 buzzsawmonkey
Obama basically tells anyone who disagrees with him to shut the hell up.
So much for dissent being patriotic
| 295 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:39:36am |
re: #290 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
They've infiltrated major cities, are leaching off us for their food, healthcare and living space as the slowly build their numbers. Why could we not see it before?
It's even worse than you think - there's a couple of them in DC, just miles from the White House!
| 296 |
Ben Hur Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:39:47am |
re: #281 Sharmuta
I agree. Perhaps if both sides weren't exploiting the imagery, one of them would have an intellectually honest leg on which to stand.
Both sides?
C'mon, Sharm.
| 297 |
wintercat Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:39:50am |
re: #280 LC LaWedgie
It is interesting that the SEIU guy is on the ground in the beginning of the video but also note that the black conservative man gets violently pushed to the ground by another SEIU guy. I'd like to know how the first SEIU guy got on the ground...and why. Was he pushed? Punched? Sadly, the clip only seems to start from that moment.
| 298 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:40:01am |
American politics is becoming like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.
| 299 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:40:04am |
re: #284 Slumbering Behemoth
Sure. So I suppose I can call just about any woman that "special word" that all women hate, and excuse it away by saying "Hey, don't be angry, I was only kidding".
/yeah, right
Actually, my fiancee uses that "special word" all the time, usually preceeded by "pickled". Makes me laugh like crazy when she says it.
| 300 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:40:21am |
For the record, I think whatever chimaera of a health-care bill emerges from Congress will make the traditional Gerrymander look like a cute beagle puppy.
The one and only solution would be single payer, but that was taken off the table before the debate ever began. Anything that comes from this effort is doomed in the womb, as it were. Non-viable. A teratoma.
But take heart! Most provisions of whatever nightmare one-thousand-six-hundred-and-thirty-seven page bill is spawned won't take effect until 2013. The world ends in 2012, as anyone with a Mayan calendar knows. So it's all just entertainment, folks.
| 301 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:40:36am |
re: #293 Thanos
The ones who are getting out of hand need to be calmed by our side, it's stupid to encourage Code Pink behavior on the right.
I wonder how many people become what they most hate in life and not realize it or just don't care.
| 302 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:40:38am |
re: #293 Thanos
The ones who are getting out of hand need to be calmed by our side, it's stupid to encourage Code Pink behavior on the right.
The problem is that, as I found here in Macon, these aren't "card carrying" Republicans.
Just because you show up and hold a sign doesn't somehow automatically enroll you into the RNC, nor does it give the RNC "control" over everyone in attendance.
| 303 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:40:50am |
re: #291 Noam Chumpski
Sounds like a personal issue.
Sure does. Rush, a man know for repeating the phrase "Words mean things", seems to have a personal issue with fully understanding that, um... words mean things.
| 304 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:41:16am |
re: #293 Thanos
The ones who are getting out of hand need to be calmed by our side, it's stupid to encourage Code Pink behavior on the right.
I wonder what will happen if a singer or band from Illinois tours the UK and tells the audience that they're embarrassed to be from the same state as the president. :)
| 305 |
BlueCanuck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:41:23am |
| 307 |
filetandrelease Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:41:43am |
re: #286 Thanos
I hope you are wrong, sense zero power exerts little influence. Power to the people?
| 308 |
Oh no...Sand People! Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:41:59am |
re: #272 equable
Hey if they couldn't be bothered to read the bill, what do they expect? There's more on the line here than most people even realize.
Exactly, if this were merely 'words' or some policy that doesn't mean anything to anyone, then this would be surprising. In the long run, lives are truly at stake in this legislation, literally.
FYI: I am not advocating violence.
| 309 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:42:06am |
"I want you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors.
I want you to talk to them whether they are independents or Republicans.
I want you to argue with them." -BO
| 310 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:42:12am |
re: #296 Ben Hur
Both sides?
C'mon, Sharm.
Yes- both sides have compared either Bush or Obama to hitler.
| 311 |
wrenchwench Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:42:24am |
re: #298 Charles
American politics is becoming like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.
Isn't that redundant?
| 312 |
Racer X Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:42:43am |
re: #285 MandyManners
The only folks he is interested in unifying are those already on his side. Remember, he's in constant campaign mode.
A Million updings if i could.
| 313 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:42:52am |
Just got an email from a Pamela Geller fan in Britain -- probably the BNP yob who keeps sending hate mail.
| 315 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:00am |
re: #311 wrenchwench
Isn't that redundant?
Hey, Jerry used to care back in the day!
(care about getting a paycheck)
| 316 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:11am |
re: #295 Mad Al-Jaffee
It's even worse than you think - there's a couple of them in DC, just miles from the White House!
They're in San Diego, within striking distance of the Naval Yards, Pendelton and Miramar. We've left ourselves wide open.
Soon, incidents like this will be a common sight across the world.
| 317 |
Equable Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:12am |
re: #289 Charles
All over the right wing blogs I'm seeing people make excuses for the behavior of the demonstrators.
Are people trying to make things worse? How is it going to help anything if the meetings that are supposed to promote dialog turn into shoving and shouting matches?
This is going to turn into another episode of:
"See? You're all too far gone and too much a rabble of disturbed children to know what's too good for you. And isn't this why you elected me in the first place?"
| 318 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:13am |
| 319 |
Joshua Cohen Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:15am |
Oh happy day!
Everytime I think it could not become much worse - it does.
| 320 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:15am |
re: #303 Slumbering Behemoth
Sure does. Rush, a man know for repeating the phrase "Words mean things", seems to have a personal issue with fully understanding that, um... words mean things.
Alright
| 321 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:16am |
re: #292 buzzsawmonkey
Obama basically tells anyone who disagrees with him to shut the hell up.
That's because Americans don't know whats good for them.
| 322 |
Aye Pod Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:28am |
re: #103 Charles
Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck both urged listeners to attend this town hall meeting, by the way.
I saw one idiot in that protest actually do what appeared to be a mini-Glenn Beck impersonation*, before collasping to the ground in mock? anguish.
*Been a lot of that around, recently.
| 323 |
Ben Hur Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:29am |
re: #310 Sharmuta
Yes- both sides have compared either Bush or Obama to hitler.
Our side have not carried out mass demonstrations with Obama as Hitler or drinking kid's blood, etc.
No where near the level as the last 8 years.
| 324 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:53am |
re: #302 Noam Chumpski
The problem is that, as I found here in Macon, these aren't "card carrying" Republicans.
Just because you show up and hold a sign doesn't somehow automatically enroll you into the RNC, nor does it give the RNC "control" over everyone in attendance.
I think there are some hard core agitators on our side showing up, to deny that would be willfully blind like trying to pretend that paleocons don't vote R or something. I would probably contend with Charles that it's probably a few rather than a lot, you don't need a bunch of people to start a group chant in a crowd of hundreds, you just need two.
| 325 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:44:06am |
re: #313 Charles
Just got an email from a Pamela Geller fan in Britain -- probably the BNP yob who keeps sending hate mail.
Post it!! Please.
| 326 |
Racer X Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:44:11am |
re: #289 Charles
All over the right wing blogs I'm seeing people make excuses for the behavior of the demonstrators.
Are people trying to make things worse? How is it going to help anything if the meetings that are supposed to promote dialog turn into shoving and shouting matches?
The average American is pissed off. At a lot of things. It doesn't take much to get people fired up nowadays.
| 327 |
nightlight Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:44:28am |
| 328 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:44:31am |
re: #315 MrSilverDragon
Hey, Jerry used to care back in the day!
(care about getting a paycheck)
OH NO YOU DIDN'T!
/rushes MrSilverDragon
| 329 |
Ben Hur Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:44:41am |
| 330 |
BlueCanuck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:45:05am |
re: #316 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
They're in San Diego, within striking distance of the Naval Yards, Pendelton and Miramar. We've left ourselves wide open.
Soon, incidents like this will be a common sight across the world.
Are they relatives of Australian Drop Bears?
| 331 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:45:35am |
re: #307 filetandrelease
I hope you are wrong, sense zero power exerts little influence. Power to the people?
Actually congresscritters are pretty friendly with each other behind the scenes, I would wager that there are regional R representatives working on the Blue dogs, right now it's about the only lever we have.
| 332 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:45:41am |
| 333 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:46:21am |
re: #326 Racer X
The average American is pissed off. At a lot of things. It doesn't take much to get people fired up nowadays.
these little dust ups really get peoples undies in a bunch...so nauseating I can't watch!...polite discourse is dead, when was it ever this bad!...good grief
| 334 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:46:33am |
re: #328 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
OH NO YOU DIDN'T!
/rushes MrSilverDragon
Talk to the elbow 'coz the hand ain't listenin'!
/throws chair
| 335 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:46:42am |
| 336 |
lawhawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:46:57am |
re: #298 Charles
American politics
is becominghas been like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.
It's only getting worse. It's been a Springer episode for some time now.
You can argue that the craziness started with the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal and it went downhill from there.
| 337 |
The Other Les Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:47:01am |
re: #298 Charles
American politics is becoming like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.
What I'm afraid of is that it is going to look like something from the History Channel.
| 338 |
BlueCanuck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:47:12am |
re: #323 Ben Hur
Our side have not carried out mass demonstrations with Obama as Hitler or drinking kid's blood, etc.
No where near the level as the last 8 years.
Alright, playing devils advocate. What if they are just starting to wind up? All the Bush=Hitler stuff didn't spring fully formed at all the Anti War rallies did it? It must have started small as well.
/crush this like the tiny worm it is. We don't need any dragons.
| 339 |
Racer X Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:47:20am |
re: #322 Jimmah
I saw one idiot in that protest actually do what appeared to be a mini-Glenn Beck impersonation*, before collasping to the ground in mock? anguish.
*Been a lot of that around, recently.
The protester was mocking a Obama supporter.
| 340 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:47:21am |
re: #293 Thanos
The ones who are getting out of hand need to be calmed by our side, it's stupid to encourage Code Pink behavior on the right.
Code Pink? What are you talking about? I've watched just about all the videos I can find and I've seen nothing of the kind. What I have seen is people yelling at their reps when told obvious lies and distortions. I'd be yelling too. And I just might.
Hubby wants to go to Moran's mtg on the 25th.
| 341 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:47:26am |
re: #336 lawhawk
It's only getting worse. It's been a Springer episode for some time now.
You can argue that the craziness started with the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal and it went downhill from there.
Nov 2000
| 342 |
MandyManners Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:47:45am |
re: #292 buzzsawmonkey
Obama basically tells anyone who disagrees with him to shut the hell up.
| 343 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:48:38am |
re: #323 Ben Hur
Our side have not carried out mass demonstrations with Obama as Hitler or drinking kid's blood, etc.
No where near the level as the last 8 years.
Instead- we have nirthers and people who think Obama is not only hitler, but a sekrit mooslim! This hasn't been going on for 8 years with Obama- it's just started, and it's already ugly. I'll say again that this criticism is being equally leveled at the left. I don't want to be a right-wing version of them.
| 344 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:48:48am |
re: #324 Thanos
I think there are some hard core agitators on our side showing up, to deny that would be willfully blind like trying to pretend that paleocons don't vote R or something. I would probably contend with Charles that it's probably a few rather than a lot, you don't need a bunch of people to start a group chant in a crowd of hundreds, you just need two.
For the record: I just really hate group chants. I just really hate those things.
| 345 |
Ben Hur Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:49:04am |
re: #338 BlueCanuck
Alright, playing devils advocate. What if they are just starting to wind up? All the Bush=Hitler stuff didn't spring fully formed at all the Anti War rallies did it? It must have started small as well.
/crush this like the tiny worm it is. We don't need any dragons.
I am entirely confident that that's exactly what we would do, and what Charles is doing with the Nirther sh*t, etc.
| 346 |
Equable Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:49:14am |
re: #308 Oh no...Sand People!
Exactly, if this were merely 'words' or some policy that doesn't mean anything to anyone, then this would be surprising. In the long run, lives are truly at stake in this legislation, literally.
FYI: I am not advocating violence.
I totally agree. Americans inherently want to be left the hell alone to mind their own business and be Americans. You can't expect us to do an about-face, go supine and wait for the inevitable robotic grin to emblazon our faces.
It isn't our style.
It isn't in our blood.
And pardon the French but it sure as shit ain't our history.
I don't condone the violence either but I am glad to see people stand up and be counted as loudly as they can be. When the Congress votes yes on something of this magnitude ... well it doesn't get much louder than that.
| 347 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:49:30am |
re: #344 Noam Chumpski
For the record: I just really hate group chants. I just really hate those things.
"No more chants! No more chants! No more chants!"
Oh wait... dangitall!
| 348 |
debutaunt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:49:37am |
re: #64 lawhawk
And what about the fact that there were Democrats and union thugs who were dishing out the violence? That's not the conservatives in the wrong there...
If you have been anywhere near this type of agitation, you'll most likely discover that the unionized side is very good at it.
| 350 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:49:53am |
re: #306 taxfreekiller
My insurance agent, one of the lead partners in a very, very large ins. agency in Texas and I had a talk a few years ago.
Yo, Keith, why the hell is my dam group medical for all grand dads companies costing so much, hell two,, three times a year you guys
keep raising the rates??? WTF is going on."You really want to know???"""
Ya, Keith matter of fact I do.
OK, come to my office, go with me.
OK
We get in his car, we go to a small grocery store in a ruff part of town, the place is known for "numbers action" ,check cashing, money washing ect. Keith gets the owner to come into the cooler locker with us. (The guy it seems played poker in a high stakes game in town with Keith and they were buds.)Keith, says, now tell this guy what you told me about the big "slip and fall Atty's who do buss with you."
The guy looks spooked,,"can we trust this guy, If I Tell, I could get hurt
permanent if you know what I mean".
Ya, tell him.
"Well you see, once the case is won, the checks they get they cash them here, I give them 40% and the atty's get 50% and I get 10% for washing it all."Those atty's are the ones who buy the Democrats, the ones Chuck Schummer and John Edwards front for.
It is like that.
Oh, bullshit. The standard attorney's fee for cases taken on spec is 33.3%. Everyone down to the last strung-out scam artist knows that. And legal settlement money does not need to be "washed". Anyone who would take 40% when they can have 66.7%, nice and legal, is brain-dead.
As you obviously think we are. Go peddle that crap to the FReepers.
| 351 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:50:02am |
re: #343 Sharmuta
Instead- we have nirthers and people who think Obama is not only hitler, but a sekrit mooslim! This hasn't been going on for 8 years with Obama- it's just started, and it's already ugly. I'll say again that this criticism is being equally leveled at the left. I don't want to be a right-wing version of them.
And you recommend doing what? Shutting up?
Not gonna happen.
| 352 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:50:21am |
| 353 |
experiencedtraveller Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:50:24am |
re: #344 Noam Chumpski
For the record: I just really hate group chants. I just really hate those things.
Then I advise you to stay away from baseball games in Japan...
| 354 |
MJ Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:50:32am |
re: #298 Charles
American politics is becoming like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.
I think we got there a while back:
| 355 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:50:38am |
re: #351 wahabicorridor
And you recommend doing what? Shutting up?
Not gonna happen.
No- I haven't recommended that.
| 356 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:50:44am |
re: #340 wahabicorridor
Yelling and disrupting meetings == Code Pink behavior. It's what they live for. If you want to be a cranky child, you shouldn't show up to talk at adult meetings. You want to be cranky go somewhere else. There really are important issues to discuss, jumping on a soapbox and shouting might make one individual feel better for a few minutes, but it doesn't move the ball.
| 357 |
Ben Hur Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:50:53am |
re: #343 Sharmuta
Instead- we have nirthers and people who think Obama is not only hitler, but a sekrit mooslim! This hasn't been going on for 8 years with Obama- it's just started, and it's already ugly. I'll say again that this criticism is being equally leveled at the left. I don't want to be a right-wing version of them.
I have yet to see anywhere near what we saw (because suddenly they're gone)- or what I would see everyweekend in NYC - against Bush, led by the Troofers.
| 358 |
onslow Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:50:58am |
re: #292 buzzsawmonkey
He can't keep his inner Nixon tamped down.
| 359 |
Creeping Eruption Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:51:14am |
re: #347 MrSilverDragon
"No more chants! No more chants! No more chants!"
Oh wait... dangitall!
"we're not going to protest . . .we're not going to protest . . .we're not going to protest"
Channeling PCU.
| 360 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:51:23am |
re: #343 Sharmuta
Instead- we have nirthers and people who think Obama is not only hitler, but a sekrit mooslim! This hasn't been going on for 8 years with Obama- it's just started, and it's already ugly. I'll say again that this criticism is being equally leveled at the left. I don't want to be a right-wing version of them.
they are here to stay...they will evolve or not as the situation changes...for example I'd bet the angry mobs would disappear over night if BO and the dems would move more to the center and drop these dangerous takeover plans...they should have considered the consequences
| 361 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:51:28am |
re: #353 experiencedtraveller
Then I advise you to stay away from baseball games in Japan...
Oh, that's something I never knew about. Interesting.
| 362 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:51:30am |
This fighting is a bad, bad sign.
Very bad.
It scares me & reminds me (a little bit, yet a little, I hope not more as time goes on) of the history I have red about the last years of the Weimar Republic.
A curse on the politicians and the media who have brought us to this.
| 365 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:52:34am |
re: #354 MJ
Who started that whole pie throwing crap?
| 366 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:52:40am |
re: #357 Ben Hur
I have yet to see anywhere near what we saw (because suddenly they're gone)- or what I would see everyweekend in NYC - against Bush, led by the Troofers.
And that's to our credit, but it doesn't mean we should tolerate it when it does spring up.
| 367 |
freedomplow Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:52:41am |
re: #289 Charles
Afraid it isn't about dialog. These people believe they only have one way to stop the nationalization of health care, and they are pretty sure that no one is going to listen to them unless they make their point vigorously.
| 369 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:53:08am |
re: #365 Idle Drifter
Who started that whole pie throwing crap?
Wasn't a lefty tossing one at Ann Coutler? (At least in the modern day pie throwing)
| 370 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:53:32am |
| 371 |
Scion9 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:53:45am |
re: #310 Sharmuta
Yes- both sides have compared either Bush or Obama to hitler.
On the plus side I bet it really agitates the crap out of Neo-Nazis who think our current POTUS' is disturbingly lacking in Hitlerian qualities.
| 372 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:53:47am |
re: #351 wahabicorridor
And you recommend doing what? Shutting up?
Not gonna happen.
I don't recommend going to town hall meetings and shouting down speakers.
If you want to protest, do it at a protest. Then you can shout all you want.
But if you're going to a meeting that's supposed to promote dialog on an important issue, then yes, you should shut up unless it's your turn to speak. This is ridiculous, embarrassing behavior and I won't be making any excuses for it.
| 373 |
doubter4444 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:53:47am |
re: #221 Killgore Trout
6,070,000 for Obama Hitler
And we are 201 days into it.
But hey rationalization is what it's all about these days.
Again no responsibility, just "They did it first, and worse!"
Mobs are wrong. Always.
| 374 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:54:07am |
re: #365 Idle Drifter
Who started that whole pie throwing crap?
Vaudville? Court jesters? Thog when he fell into a pile of brontosaurus dung?
/
| 375 |
Mr. Sandman Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:54:18am |
Let's see: this whole thing started with coordinated onslaughts of tea-party morons, literally given a guidebook on how to disrupt, intimidate, shout down speakers, and shut down town hall meetings (anyone notice how whenever they ask a question and the speaker gives a reasonable answer, the tea party moron, since he has no ability to rationally think and argue, will just start yelling "YOU'RE LYING TO ME! YOU'RE A LIAR!! It seems pretty obvious to me, from seeing repeated instances of this, that they were told in effect to start chanting that if all else fails). I knew it was starting to get really ugly when these inbreds started hanging congressmen in effigy and were dancing on the edge of becoming physically aggressive. I saw them shouting down not just congressmen but supporters of health care reform who were in the audience, not letting them ask questions. Now that more health care reform supporters are showing up, we have more ugliness, and it seems pretty clear that the main blame goes to the ugly tactics used from the start by the tea-party morons.
| 376 |
LC LaWedgie Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:54:24am |
re: #321 NJDhockeyfan
Opponents of health insurance reform may find the truth a little inconvenient, but as our second president famously said, "facts are stubborn things."
| 377 |
debutaunt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:54:34am |
When global warming first became an issue, I read about a high school teacher in Colorado who had his class research and debate both sides. I was told by a leftie friend that it wasn't debatable.
| 381 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:54:59am |
re: #356 Thanos
Yelling and disrupting meetings == Code Pink behavior. It's what they live for.
Thank you, you made my point. Disruption is their intent. It hasn't been for the people going to health care town hall meetings - it's been the result of frustration with the lies and insults.
| 382 |
eschew_obfuscation Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:55:03am |
re: #356 Thanos
Yelling and disrupting meetings == Code Pink behavior. It's what they live for. If you want to be a cranky child, you shouldn't show up to talk at adult meetings. You want to be cranky go somewhere else. There really are important issues to discuss, jumping on a soapbox and shouting might make one individual feel better for a few minutes, but it doesn't move the ball.
There's a bit of a difference here.
Code Pinkos are usually a few noisy individuals in an otherwise calm/quiet crowd that mostly disagrees with them.
Large portions of these crowds AGREE with those doing the disruption.
| 383 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:55:10am |
re: #20 Charles
"Punch back twice as hard" was NOT an instruction to demonstrators.
Yes Charles but words get out, and they circulate, and they set a tone, and they find their actors.
Becket was murdered by a remark.
Obama is a fool with his mouth.
| 384 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:55:26am |
re: #367 freedomplow
See my post above. There is exactly one way of stopping health care, and only one way. The lever is the blue dogs, that fails and it becomes fact. Shouting at them is not the way to win their affection, read your Dale Carnegie.
| 385 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:55:40am |
re: #367 freedomplow
Afraid it isn't about dialog. These people believe they only have one way to stop the nationalization of health care, and they are pretty sure that no one is going to listen to them unless they make their point vigorously.
If the majority wants "nationalization" of health care (which is not even remotely what we're going to get), then we get "nationalization" of health care.
It's called democracy, and if you don't like it, you can move to...oh...sorry...there's no place in the civilized world that has a "health care system" as messed up as ours. Too bad, so sad.
| 387 |
Land Shark Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:55:41am |
Regardless of where you stand on the health care thing (quite frankly, I don't believe it needs much, if any, change), resorting to calling or comparing your opponents to Nazis is beyond stupid. As someone who's read quite a bit about them, I suggest people on the Left and Right do a little reading on what the real Nazis did before throwing out the accusation as casually as people seem to these days.
Like Sharmuta said back in comment No. 38, the landscape of political discourse in our country is a concern. It's been getting crazier and crazier for years now. I just hope it doesn't come to choosing up sides for a real brawl.
| 388 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:55:58am |
re: #372 Charles
I don't recommend going to town hall meetings and shouting down speakers.
If you want to protest, do it at a protest.
But if you're going to a meeting that's supposed to promote dialog on an important issue, then yes, you should shut up unless it's your turn to speak. This is ridiculous, embarrassing behavior and I won't be making any excuses for it.
100 pct agree on that.
| 390 |
VioletTiger Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:56:20am |
re: #309 voirdire
"I want you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors.
I want you to talk to them whether they are independents or Republicans.
I want you to argue with them." -BO
Here 'tis
| 391 |
FrogMarch Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:56:21am |
There always going to be examples of bad behavior.
The Democrat party and Obama in particular are saying "the debate is over". So why bother with town hall meetings? The Democrats have enough votes to push government health care through. Just do it, dems. Enough already.
Lets increase taxes to pay for a single payer system. Lets dismantle the private sector and get it over with. Why wait?
We can place the government in charge of innovation.
The increased taxation on individuals and business will further erode employment, but so what? It's the right thing to do, right? It feels good and it makes the federal government a huge power house in our individual lives. So what the heck?
| 392 |
Idle Drifter Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:56:30am |
re: #374 MrSilverDragon
Vaudville? Court jesters? Thog when he fell into a pile of brontosaurus dung?
/
When the Three Stooges do it it's funny. Using it as a form of political descent not so much.
| 394 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:56:37am |
re: #383 Ojoe
Yes Charles but words get out, and they circulate, and they set a tone, and they find their actors.
Becket was murdered by a remark.
Obama is a fool with his mouth.
Obama did NOT say that quote: "Punch back twice as hard." It was deputy chief of staff Jim Messina.
| 395 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:56:46am |
re: #383 Ojoe
Yes Charles but words get out, and they circulate, and they set a tone, and they find their actors.
Becket was murdered by a remark.
Obama is a fool with his mouth.
What if he said it was only satire?
/
| 396 |
Aye Pod Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:57:09am |
| 397 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:57:20am |
re: #372 Charles
I don't recommend going to town hall meetings and shouting down speakers.
And I never said I recommended it either. But I will NOT say nothing just because there are a bunch of nuts around.
| 398 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:57:20am |
re: #392 Idle Drifter
When the Three Stooges do it it's funny. Using it as a form of political descent not so much.
100% agreed.
| 399 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:58:03am |
re: #394 Charles
Hired by Obama.
"If a man is not wise himself, he cannot be well advised."
—N. Machiavelli
(Thank you for the clarification.)
| 400 |
sngnsgt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:58:34am |
CNN says: Poll indicates generational split over health care
Fifty percent of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey released Wednesday morning say they support the president's plans, with 45 percent opposed.The results indicate a generational divide.
Whew! Good thing CNN isn't biased in any way. /
| 401 |
Kosh's Shadow Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:58:41am |
re: #362 Ojoe
This fighting is a bad, bad sign.
Very bad.
It scares me & reminds me (a little bit, yet a little, I hope not more as time goes on) of the history I have red about the last years of the Weimar Republic.
A curse on the politicians and the media who have brought us to this.
And how much of a step from this:
The Obama administration hopes to tamp down violent extremism by showing that "seemingly intractable problems and legitimate grievances" such as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be resolved through diplomacy and democracy, according to the White House's point man on counterterrorism.As part of that counter-effort, Brennan said the US needs to "demonstrate that seemingly intractable problems and legitimate grievances can be resolved through diplomacy, dialogue and the democratic process."
He pointed to several problem areas, including the Arab-Israeli conflict.
"That is why the administration is aggressively pursuing negotiations to achieve the goal of two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security," he said.
is it to blaming Israel for all terrorism, and then blaming Jews?
| 402 |
BlueCanuck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:59:01am |
re: #352 MrSilverDragon
Aw... I'm hurt.
/not really
Silver dragons good. Gold dragons better.
/now where did I put my chromatic dragon bane sword +5
| 403 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:59:09am |
People invested in political theater have only one goal in mind: to stop adult discussion. So whether they are doing hysterical theater at protests, shouting at public meetings, or just pissing bile on moderates or moderation in forums the purpose is the same.
| 404 |
VioletTiger Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:59:32am |
re: #391 FrogMarch
They have the votes to do whatever they want.
If people were not speaking out against this, it would be a done deal.
I don't agree with shouting at Congress, but I want to see the debate continue.
| 405 |
HelloDare Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:59:51am |
re: #298 Charles
American politics is becoming like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show.
Not quite. John Edwards has not yet appeared on-air for the results of a paternity test.
| 406 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:59:53am |
| 408 |
LC LaWedgie Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:00:55pm |
| 409 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:01:03pm |
re: #404 VioletTiger
They have the votes to do whatever they want.
If people were not speaking out against this, it would be a done deal.
I don't agree with shouting at Congress, but I want to see the debate continue.
I just one question answered...why does BO resist tort reform
| 410 |
Aye Pod Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:01:12pm |
re: #351 wahabicorridor
And you recommend doing what? Shutting up?
Not gonna happen.
Are you saying the options are - behave like an idiot, or shut up?
How about sensible, non rabid criticism and adult behaviour?
| 411 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:01:13pm |
Bottomline on healthcare: I dont care what the Bill actually says, because I don't think the Federal Government can pull off the project to begin with. I don't trust anything they say and the less control they have over anything, the better.
| 412 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:01:14pm |
re: #394 Charles
Obama did NOT say that quote: "Punch back twice as hard." It was deputy chief of staff Jim Messina.
No, Obama only told people to get in their faces... totally different.
| 413 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:01:28pm |
re: #379 taxfreekiller
this is after the award, off the f'n record, the slip and fall was fake too
this way the atty no pay income tax
If there is an award, it's on the f'n record, so prosecuting the attorney for hiding income is easy. What? Your client was awarded $50,000 and there's no record of it being paid? And you didn't complain? Let us see your books, please...
And no client is going to settle for 40% for the sake of his lawyer's bottom line. Even fake-slip-and-fall scam artists - especially those guys - are not that frakkin' DUMB.
Your anecdote smells like fish. Think I'll send it to the White House! ;^)
| 414 |
BlueCanuck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:01:28pm |
| 415 |
restitutor orbis Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:02:04pm |
re: #198 Charles
Generally I find myself making that kind of distinction too. Mostly because of that preening, self-satisfied chin-in-he-air pose he likes to strike from time to time. Yes, very Mussolini-esque
| 416 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:02:19pm |
Congress critters need to know there is genuine anger and dismay out there. From their Ivory Tower, they bask in HopeandChange. That is why they see the little people and believe it is an organized event. That is all they know...
Their jobs are on the line here. We may see an electoral revolt in 2010 on both sides. It would be well deserved.
| 417 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:02:38pm |
re: #409 albusteve
I just one question answered...why does BO resist tort reform
Duh, because he's a lawyer...
| 418 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:02:40pm |
re: #412 Noam Chumpski
Yes he did say "get in their faces".
It is terrible where we are going, if we do not turn around.
| 419 |
Creeping Eruption Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:02:40pm |
re: #409 albusteve
I just one question answered...why does BO resist tort reform
Are there any reliable numbers out there about what tort cases are costing and who is incurring those costs?
| 420 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:02:41pm |
re: #278 eschew_obfuscation
I think this is first and foremost about sending congressional representatives the message that the people are demanding to be represented rather than told to shut up because they don't know what they're talking about.
It's demanding to be listened to, not ignored.
If this were only a few rabble rousers "sent" to cause disruption,
a) large portions of the audiences would not be agreeing with them
b) polls wouldn't indicate significant opposition to the legislation as it's been discussed.
People are angry because their concerns are being ignored. We have an administration and a congress who is actively demonizing anyone who dares question their decisions and it's pissing off a lot of people.
Voters are being lied to and they know it. Washington is treating the electorate like a group of children and equating their concerns to a dislike of eating Brussels sprouts. Just shut up, eat your vegetables. We know what's good for you.
Many reps are refusing to appear in public and are organizing telephone town hall meetings where they prescreen the questions and ignore dissent much like Hillary and Obama's fake town halls and listening tours. People are calling their reps offices and getting hang ups. They seem to have forgotten they are accountable to all their constituents.
Now that the left has called out the unions and Obama "volunteers", things are going to get uglier. Historically speaking, when the left calls out the unions to agitate for them, violence ensues. It's up to the opponents of Obama Care to avoid physical confrontation unless it's necessary to defend their safety. Let the left be seen pushing and bullying people.
| 421 |
Kosh's Shadow Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:02:42pm |
I plan to contact my senators and representative about the health care bill, but since I live in Massachusetts, I'll probably get reported to the White House, three times (Kerry, Kennedy, and Tsongas).
| 422 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:02:59pm |
re: #394 Charles
Obama did NOT say that quote: "Punch back twice as hard." It was deputy chief of staff Jim Messina.
I fear you're fighting a losing battle, Charles. A lot of folks here seem to be just as eager for civil war as any godforsaken Atlas reader.
| 423 |
MandyManners Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:03:03pm |
Jim Messina is the one who said to hit back harder.
| 424 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:03:24pm |
Okay folks, hope y'all have a fantastic weekend, as it's time for me to head home. Be safe, y'all!
| 425 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:03:25pm |
re: #402 BlueCanuck
Silver dragons good. Gold dragons better.
/now where did I put my chromatic dragon bane sword +5
"Why is it wrong to offer up the local village as a sacrifice to the Blue Dragon so we have time to steal from its hoard? We're not from there."
The joys of a LE rogue
| 427 |
MandyManners Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:03:43pm |
| 428 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:04:01pm |
re: #410 Jimmah
Are you saying the options are - behave like an idiot, or shut up?
How about sensible, non rabid criticism and adult behaviour?
No! I'm saying the opposite! Just because there are nuts out there doesn't mean I will keep my opinions out of my rep's face politely and forcefully.
| 430 |
FrogMarch Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:04:22pm |
re: #400 sngnsgt
CNN says: Poll indicates generational split over health care
Whew! Good thing CNN isn't biased in any way. /
Health Reform and the Polls
Obama’s biggest obstacle is the 68% of voters who rate their health coverage as good or excellent.
| 431 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:04:40pm |
re: #421 Kosh's Shadow
I plan to contact my senators and representative about the health care bill, but since I live in Massachusetts, I'll probably get reported to the White House, three times (Kerry, Kennedy, and Tsongas).
Hide a spoon in your shoes so you'll have something to tunnel with.
| 432 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:05:07pm |
re: #412 Noam Chumpski
No, Obama only told people to get in their faces... totally different.
He was talking about discussions with neighbors, that wasn't about health care, and it was a year ago.
The one who's set this recess theater up is Nancy Pelosi. They know large crowds are coming, but are still picking small venue average rooms for these meetings.
| 433 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:05:15pm |
re: #286 Thanos
IT's not going to, the angry needs to stop. Our only hope is to influence since we have exactly zero power on the hill right now. The only reason Healthcare is on the rocks right now is because of the blue dogs - if they come away from recess thinking that the other side of the debate is insane, or if the protests against this get way out of hand then they will crumble on their opposition when they return to the hill after recess. Nancy P. knows this, and that's why she's gleefully encouraging the "mob" framing of this.
They're blue dogs because they come from moderately conservative districts. They know this bill is DOA for their constituents and the anger they are hearing only magnifies that. They're going to have to decide if they were elected to carry Nancy and Barack's water or if they will vote to represent their constituents. They do have an election coming up soon.
| 434 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:05:18pm |
re: #422 Cato the Elder
I fear you're fighting a losing battle, Charles. A lot of folks here seem to be just as eager for civil war as any godforsaken Atlas reader.
I don't think anyone here has said they were eager for civil war...
| 435 |
JustABill Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:05:44pm |
re: #384 Thanos
See my post above. There is exactly one way of stopping health care, and only one way. The lever is the blue dogs, that fails and it becomes fact. Shouting at them is not the way to win their affection, read your Dale Carnegie.
Yes, but I think you need to get into the head of these blue dogs. Most of them are from evently divided or even "red" states. I congressman seeing voters from his closely held district strongly disapproving of and fired up about a peice of legislation he will have to vote on, will think long and hard before supporting such a bill.
The message needs to be, "We, the voters in your district are strongly against this legislation, and we will remember how you voted on it in November 2010."
| 436 |
doubter4444 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:05:49pm |
re: #278 eschew_obfuscation
I think this is first and foremost about sending congressional representatives the message that the people are demanding to be represented rather than told to shut up because they don't know what they're talking about.
It's demanding to be listened to, not ignored.
If this were only a few rabble rouser's "sent" to cause disruption,
a) large portions of the audiences would not be agreeing with them
b) polls wouldn't indicate significant opposition to the legislation as it's been discussed.
That's horse-shit.
Most of these people know next to nothing about the bill, as witness the guy who claimed that Medicare was not a government program.
And they are not being told to shut up because they don't know what they are talking about, even though they don't; they're told to quiet down and be civil. Is that so wrong?
And have you even considered that if a whole bunch of rabble rouser's get in first (as has been urged to do so by the fucking head of the republican party, for Pete's sake) THEY will the large portion of the audience?
And as for "demanding to be represented", as you mention above, in some of the districts where this is happening the Representative won by 70 to 80 plus of the vote.
Man, I try to be polite, but that comment is just bogglingly dumb.
| 437 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:05:51pm |
re: #414 BlueCanuck
| 438 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:05:54pm |
re: #419 Creeping Eruption
Are there any reliable numbers out there about what tort cases are costing and who is incurring those costs?
I'm sure there are...
| 439 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:06:26pm |
Watch the video of the AARP meeting. After refusing to answer questions, the leader walks out while the others attending remain and discuss things without a microphone. Just shows how unreasonable those who actually faced down real Nazis can be.
| 440 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:06:40pm |
re: #426 buzzsawmonkey
Comparing Obama to Mussolini? Totally out of line.
For one thing, there is no chance Obama will get the trains to run on time.
ROTFLMAO!
| 441 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:06:44pm |
re: #426 buzzsawmonkey
Comparing Obama to Mussolini? Totally out of line.
For one thing, there is no chance Obama will get the trains to run on time.
Yeah, his economic policies are nothing like Mussolini's.
| 442 |
bush's babe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:07:03pm |
re: #431 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Don't worry I am with you... I am in the Twin Cities in MN... McCollum and Klobuchar has already got me on the enemy list.
| 443 |
bush's babe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:07:41pm |
Then again aren't we all on the enemy list for just looking at this site?
| 444 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:07:52pm |
re: #433 Wendya
Do you have children? Do 2 yr old temper tantrums convince you? Does anger make you more or less likely to agree with someone? I think you are overestimating the power of tantrum.
| 445 |
doubter4444 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:08:31pm |
re: #350 Cato the Elder
Oh, bullshit. The standard attorney's fee for cases taken on spec is 33.3%. Everyone down to the last strung-out scam artist knows that. And legal settlement money does not need to be "washed". Anyone who would take 40% when they can have 66.7%, nice and legal, is brain-dead.
As you obviously think we are. Go peddle that crap to the FReepers.
Good for you.
Saved me having to say it.
| 448 |
yochanan Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:08:50pm |
You know, the Dems should send Michelle to the increasingly tense townhall meetings this month. That way, all the cameras will be confiscated and the union goons, SEIU thugs and ACORN kneecappers can pummel tea party types with no recorded evidence, all under the guise of “burger security.”
| 449 |
HelloDare Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:09:00pm |
It will be interesting to hear Thomas Sowell's take on these shenanigans.
| 450 |
MandyManners Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:09:14pm |
re: #422 Cato the Elder
I fear you're fighting a losing battle, Charles. A lot of folks here seem to be just as eager for civil war as any godforsaken Atlas reader.
I cannot believe you just posted that. Oh, wait. Yes, I can believe it.
BTW, I don't believe that you were posting in your default sarcastic mode.
| 451 |
sngnsgt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:09:26pm |
re: #430 FrogMarch
Health Reform and the Polls
Obama’s biggest obstacle is the 68% of voters who rate their health coverage as good or excellent.
Good, I'm on disability, my version of "government run health care" is bad enough as it is.
| 452 |
MandyManners Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:09:41pm |
re: #426 buzzsawmonkey
Comparing Obama to Mussolini? Totally out of line.
For one thing, there is no chance Obama will get the trains to run on time.
What about the bus?
| 453 |
HelloDare Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:10:13pm |
re: #426 buzzsawmonkey
Comparing Obama to Mussolini? Totally out of line.
For one thing, there is no chance Obama will get the trains to run on time.
The buses will be on time. Unfortunately, we'll all be in the back.
| 454 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:10:14pm |
re: #448 yochanan
You know, the Dems should send Michelle to the increasingly tense townhall meetings this month. That way, all the cameras will be confiscated and the union goons, SEIU thugs and ACORN kneecappers can pummel tea party types with no recorded evidence, all under the guise of “burger security.”
Heh.
| 455 |
midwestgak Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:10:21pm |
re: #450 MandyManners
I cannot believe you just posted that. Oh, wait. Yes, I can believe it.
BTW, I don't believe that you were posting in your default sarcastic mode.
heh.
| 456 |
Kosh's Shadow Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:10:46pm |
re: #452 MandyManners
What about the bus?
It's late because it got stuck on all the people under it.
| 457 |
MandyManners Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:10:59pm |
re: #422 Cato the Elder
I fear you're fighting a losing battle, Charles. A lot of folks here seem to be just as eager for civil war as any godforsaken Atlas reader.
Do you really think "a lot" are as half-hinged as Geller's posters? Wow. Just freakin' wow.
| 458 |
debutaunt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:11:04pm |
re: #444 Thanos
Do you have children? Do 2 yr old temper tantrums convince you? Does anger make you more or less likely to agree with someone? I think you are overestimating the power of tantrum.
I refuse to reward bad behavior.
| 459 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:11:05pm |
re: #433 Wendya
They're going to have to decide if they were elected to carry Nancy and Barack's water or if they will vote to represent their constituents.
Good piece today in WSJ by Kim Strassel
But health care is a real dilemma for him. Mr. Minnick’s district is chockablock with those Americans who say they are relatively happy with their health care, and who are worried the Obama agenda will cut quality, raise prices, and cost the country a mint. That fear has been driven by Mrs. Pelosi’s bill, which features income-tax hikes, punitive business mandates, government-run health care, and steep cuts to Medicare.
[ ]
“This has got to be paid for, and not with smoke and mirrors,” he told me. “It’s got to do more to control costs. The problem with America is not that we are spending too little; we are spending plenty. We just aren’t getting good outcomes.”Mr. Minnick continued: “We need to be giving consumers the incentives and knowledge to make wise personal health-care decisions. And finally, it makes no sense at all for the government to be running a health-care company.”
The irony is that a majority of politicians agree on this path, but are hostage to Mrs. Pelosi and her ruling liberal minority. And Mr. Minnick’s problem is that his fate is lashed to that leadership.
He can disavow this bill until the Idaho elk come home, but his voters see the big picture. They might applaud his votes, consider him a great representative. Then again, they might look at Mrs. Pelosi’s ambitions, and decide a vote for Mr. Minnick isn’t worth the risk of keeping her in power.
| 460 |
ArchangelMichael Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:11:21pm |
re: #411 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Bottomline on healthcare: I dont care what the Bill actually says, because I don't think the Federal Government can pull off the project to begin with. I don't trust anything they say and the less control they have over anything, the better.
Even if they could pull it off it's not their place to. A couple of weeks ago it seemed like almost everyone here was on the same page as to the "proper role of government", now... seems not so much.
| 462 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:11:28pm |
"You can never have too many enemies. The more you’ve got, the more likely they are to get in each other’s way."
| 463 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:11:38pm |
re: #444 Thanos
Do you have children? Do 2 yr old temper tantrums convince you? Does anger make you more or less likely to agree with someone? I think you are overestimating the power of tantrum.
You do realize, don't you that you're also equating voters to a bunch of children who need to understand their elected officials only want the best for them and they need to behave and let the congress take care of them? When you tell adults they are stupid and they are incapable of making their own decisions, you're going to get a very vocal response.
| 464 |
tfc3rid Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:11:42pm |
I would say this article makes me say a big fat no to HC 'reform'...
| 465 |
bush's babe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:11:59pm |
| 466 |
MandyManners Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:12:03pm |
Time to disengage before I break my keyboard. I'm having Parmesan-encrusted pork loin medallions tonight so I gotta' go buy a chunk of pig.
| 467 |
yochanan Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:12:25pm |
re: #452 MandyManners
no one could get AMTRAC on time. it is against there fucking rules.
| 469 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:12:39pm |
re: #432 Thanos
He was talking about discussions with neighbors, that wasn't about health care, and it was a year ago.
The one who's set this recess theater up is Nancy Pelosi. They know large crowds are coming, but are still picking small venue average rooms for these meetings.
So what he says, and how he deals with conflict on one occasion is so totally different from what he thinks now... ok... I would believe that if it weren't for what his most Senior staff is saying. It's an echo of a style of leadership.
But, you know, whatever. It's Friday.
| 470 |
Kragar Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:12:41pm |
re: #426 buzzsawmonkey
Comparing Obama to Mussolini? Totally out of line.
For one thing, there is no chance Obama will get the trains to run on time.
But the moniker of Il Douche does seem appropriate.
| 471 |
Land Shark Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:12:44pm |
re: #419 Creeping Eruption
I work for a company that represents medical equipment manufacturers. The ones I've discussed the issue with say it isn't just about pay off amounts, it's about the money they have to spend to keep a legion of lawyers, especially lawyers with experience in those fields on call to defend themselves. And even if they go to trial and win, the costs are always substantial. There's also the cost of testing above and beyond what's reasonable in order to present evidence that they did their due diligence and did every thing possible to ensure the safety of the product.
One manufacturer in particular opened their books to us during a sales meeting to show us that the cost of lawyers, defending themselves and testing above and beyond the point of reason literally doubled the price of their equipment. And they have yet to lose a case brought against them 'cause they don't settle and fight every case. It was an eye opening session, to say the least.
| 472 |
MandyManners Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:13:02pm |
re: #466 MandyManners
Time to disengage before I break my keyboard. I'm having Parmesan-encrusted pork loin medallions tonight so I gotta' go buy a chunk of pig.
Speaking of pigs, this legislation is a pig in a poke!
| 473 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:13:27pm |
| 475 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:13:56pm |
re: #463 Wendya
You do realize, don't you that you're also equating voters to a bunch of children who need to understand their elected officials only want the best for them and they need to behave and let the congress take care of them? When you tell adults they are stupid and they are incapable of making their own decisions, you're going to get a very vocal response.
No, that's what you are doing. I'm equating a few hotheads who shout at town meetings and discussions with the intent to disrupt them to two year olds.
| 477 |
restitutor orbis Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:15:50pm |
Healthcare, empassioned protest, union goonery, economic chaos...
August.
Fine time to attack American interests somewhere. Or launch a "Tet"-like offensive in Afghanistan or Iraq...or invade Georgia, perhaps.
I hope we're not becoming too distracted.
| 478 |
MJ Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:15:53pm |
re: #372 Charles
I wonder if O'Reilly will speak out against shouting down members of Congress:
O'Reilly Takes Leftist Shoutdown Radicals To Task
re: #372 CharlesI know some are arguing that turnabout is fair play but that misses the point.
Civil society requires civility.
We didn't like it when they did it to us, why should we now say it's a perfectly fine tactic?
| 480 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:17:09pm |
re: #450 MandyManners
I cannot believe you just posted that. Oh, wait. Yes, I can believe it.
BTW, I don't believe that you were posting in your default sarcastic mode.
You're right. Because posts like this:
You know, the Dems should send Michelle to the increasingly tense townhall meetings this month. That way, all the cameras will be confiscated and the union goons, SEIU thugs and ACORN kneecappers can pummel tea party types with no recorded evidence, all under the guise of “burger security.”
show that "union goons", "SEIU thugs" (more specificity or just redundant?) and "ACORN kneecappers" (gimme a break! oh, you just did) are believed by some people to be a serious threat. And therefore it follows that the "good" people have to take action. Whatever the cost.
The rhetoric here is gradually heating up. Charles tries to cool it down. Some don't like that. "A lot" is not a percentage, it's a perception, but I stand by the comment.
| 481 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:17:24pm |
re: #471 Land Shark
I'm sorry, I can't remember the nic of the poster, but his sister is a trauma surgeon in San Jose. Every time she gets sued (often, apparently, as the ambulance chasers know the game) her insurance company just settles because it's cheaper.
Which is probably why she - and other docs - keep getting sued.
| 482 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:17:33pm |
Maybe, just maybe, the country can now sit down and calmly discuss the stimulus, cap-and-trade . . . Oh. Yeah. I guess not.
| 483 |
bush's babe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:17:48pm |
re: #476 Thanos
Ok. So you want us to shut-up? What has that gotten us? All our freedoms going out the window. Sorry, not this time.
| 484 |
yochanan Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:18:13pm |
re: #474 buzzsawmonkey
and i am sure the trains were clearner and the on board johns worked
| 485 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:18:39pm |
re: #478 MJ
I wonder if O'Reilly will speak out against shouting down members of Congress:
O'Reilly Takes Leftist Shoutdown Radicals To Task
re: #372 CharlesOh, remember when he went off on Barney Frank? I though he was going to have a stroke!
I know some are arguing that turnabout is fair play but that misses the point.
Civil society requires civility.
We didn't like it when they did it to us, why should we now say it's a perfectly fine tactic?
| 486 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:18:52pm |
re: #463 Wendya
You do realize, don't you that you're also equating voters to a bunch of children who need to understand their elected officials only want the best for them and they need to behave and let the congress take care of them? When you tell adults they are stupid and they are incapable of making their own decisions, you're going to get a very vocal response.
I get the feeling at times that peeps expect folks to play patty-cake with thugs in order to prove/show that they're 'nicer'. When I believe in something and someone is trying to intimidate me to shut up, I come out swinging. We've seen it here with the Euro-Nazis trying to shut Charles up.
| 487 |
JustABill Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:19:28pm |
| 488 |
LC LaWedgie Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:19:55pm |
DCCC Launches Second Phase of Advertising & Grassroots Offensive
Aug 05, 2009The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC), chaired by Congressman Chris Van Hollen, announced today the second phase of its month-long major advertising and grassroots offensive against more than two-dozen targeted Republicans who are trying to block health insurance reform for America's families. Called "Health Care ER," Democrats' health care emergency response network is a multi-pronged assault of paid advertising, automated and live volunteer phone calls, millions of grassroots e-mails, letters to the editor, fact checks, and tele-town halls in targeted Republican districts.
Democrats Block GOP Health Care Mailing
July 23, 2009
Democrats are preventing Republican House Members from sending their constituents a mailing that is critical of the majority’s health care reform plan, blocking the mailing by alleging that it is inaccurate.
House Republicans are crying foul and claiming that the Democrats are using their majority to prevent GOP Members from communicating with their constituents.
The dispute centers on a chart (view PDF) created by Rep. Kevin Brady (R-Texas) and Republican staff of the Joint Economic Committee to illustrate the organization of the Democratic health care plan.
| 489 |
kansas Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:19:57pm |
My Congressman, Dennis Moore, refuses to hold a town hall, and won't go on the local talk show with actual questions. He will, however, go on a morning show where two doodahs will let him regurgitate his talking points. That's his idea of dialogue, apparently.
| 490 |
Kosh's Shadow Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:20:33pm |
re: #471 Land Shark
There have been cases of equipment that should never have been made available.
On the other hand, a maker of some kind of IV solution lost a case against it where someone suffered damage (I think they lost an arm) not because of the solution, but because the hospital used it against their instructions. However, the hospital was a nonprofit, and a suit against it wouldn't have paid the lawyer for his time.
This was a case of negligence (the hospital use the material in a way that was not approved, and was dangerous; the instructions warned against this type of misuse). I think the patient deserved compensation, but they should have been able to get it from the guilty party (or some form of insurance), and the guilty party punished, not the innocent one.
But this kind of thing happens in lawsuits and even criminal cases.
When some concrete ceiling panels fell in the Big Dig, the maker of the epoxy was criminally charged, even though the epoxy wasn't supposed to be used for that purpose, and the design firm had specified a different type. It was the construction company that used the quick setting epoxy instead of the regular type specified. However, they were already bankrupt, so no one would get money from them.
| 492 |
MJ Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:21:05pm |
re: #485 wahabicorridor
Yeah, I remember. He should talk. He's shouted down a number of guests that he invited to his show.
| 493 |
debutaunt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:21:30pm |
re: #487 JustABill
Your child can't vote in a new parent.
It funny how kids sometimes appear to be scoping out possibly better parents!
| 494 |
Kosh's Shadow Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:21:47pm |
re: #484 yochanan
and i am sure the trains were clearner and the on board johns worked
Sure, because if the service was bad, you could go to the competition.
Funny, though, it doesn't work for the airlines. They all stink.
| 495 |
Scion9 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:21:54pm |
re: #476 Thanos
I dunno about counterproductive toddlers being a good analogy. You don't know my friends and their parenting methods. You'd think their barely capable of speech children are James Bond villains the kinds of things they extort from their parents.
| 496 |
kawfytawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:21:59pm |
re: #489 kansas
My congressman Chet Edwards finally agreed to a town hall after oodles of requests but we must each sign a document saying we won't shout...LOL
| 497 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:22:14pm |
re: #486 rightymouse
I get the feeling at times that peeps expect folks to play patty-cake with thugs in order to prove/show that they're 'nicer'. When I believe in something and someone is trying to intimidate me to shut up, I come out swinging. We've seen it here with the Euro-Nazis trying to shut Charles up.
You realize there is a high correlation between those who want to play kissy face with euro-fascists and those who want to rave and rant like leftist children and call Obama hitler?
| 498 |
Noam Chumpski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:22:23pm |
| 499 |
kansas Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:23:14pm |
Pelosio makes the Nazi reference. Has anybody actually seen what this woman is talking about?
| 501 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:23:35pm |
re: #483 bush's babe
Ok. So you want us to shut-up? What has that gotten us? All our freedoms going out the window. Sorry, not this time.
Wanting people to behave like grown, civil adults is not at all the same as wanting people to shut up. Thanos has been very clear in making that distinction, and it is not that difficult to understand where he is coming from.
| 502 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:23:42pm |
Here's a thought exercise...
If, in the last two months, public support for the hadn't caved (and is still cratering), what would be happening?
Would we be having these townhall "crises"? Or would this be playing out entirely differently.
Inquiring minds want to know.
| 503 |
kansas Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:24:04pm |
re: #496 kawfytawk
My congressman Chet Edwards finally agreed to a town hall after oodles of requests but we must each sign a document saying we won't shout...LOL
That's not a bad idea really, if he would agree to not simply read talking points and acknowledge that the bill is really to large and complicate to understand.
| 504 |
FrogMarch Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:24:07pm |
re: #404 VioletTiger
They have the votes to do whatever they want.
If people were not speaking out against this, it would be a done deal.
I don't agree with shouting at Congress, but I want to see the debate continue.
This isn't about what the people want. This is about what Obama and Nancy want. (and the blind faith followers.) The majority of folks who do not want to be taxed into oblivion for a government run program, don't count.
| 505 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:24:45pm |
Comments over 500 . . . computer churning . . . losing power . . . gah . .
| 507 |
LC LaWedgie Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:25:39pm |
re: #505 voirdire
Yeah, but I'll bet you ain't on a stinkin' dial-up.
| 508 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:26:11pm |
re: #495 Scion9
I dunno about counterproductive toddlers being a good analogy. You don't know my friends and their parenting methods. You'd think their barely capable of speech children are James Bond villains the kinds of things they extort from their parents.
Yeah, but these are Blue Dogs we are trying to influence, not west coast dems...
Everyone thinks this show is for the public: it's not - it's for a small handful of Blue dogs.
| 509 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:26:15pm |
re: #497 Sharmuta
You realize there is a high correlation between those who want to play kissy face with euro-fascists and those who want to rave and rant like leftist children and call Obama hitler?
huh? No, I don't realize any such thing. Care to persuade me?
| 510 |
haakondahl Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:26:38pm |
Hugh Hewitt has an amazing collection of clips from an AARP "Listening Forum", where the woman running the mic is just unbelievably rude, abusive, condescending.
Right below Hugh's smiling face, click on the "Listen Now" link to stream it right to your speakers, or hit "Podcast it" if you'd prefer to load it up into iTunes.
Recall that this meeting is being held BECAUSE of the way AARP members are dissatisfied with the way these "meetings" have been held to date.
| 511 |
Creeping Eruption Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:26:40pm |
re: #471 Land Shark
I work for a company that represents medical equipment manufacturers. The ones I've discussed the issue with say it isn't just about pay off amounts, it's about the money they have to spend to keep a legion of lawyers, especially lawyers with experience in those fields on call to defend themselves. And even if they go to trial and win, the costs are always substantial. There's also the cost of testing above and beyond what's reasonable in order to present evidence that they did their due diligence and did every thing possible to ensure the safety of the product.
One manufacturer in particular opened their books to us during a sales meeting to show us that the cost of lawyers, defending themselves and testing above and beyond the point of reason literally doubled the price of their equipment. And they have yet to lose a case brought against them 'cause they don't settle and fight every case. It was an eye opening session, to say the least.
I believe it, and the price is built into the product. I was wondering because I see many people here saying tort reform is the answer. Maybe, but I have never seen numbers. Everytime I ask someone to show me numbers, no one really can.
I have e-mailed a friend who is a PI attorney to send me the ATLA (American Trial Lawyers Association) talking points on tort reform. I am going to e-mail a defense attorney friend of mine for the DRI (Defense Research Institute) talking points and see what each says.
| 512 |
HelloDare Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:26:56pm |
According to a Nobel prize winner Paul Krugman, the driving force behind the town hall mobs is race.
But while the organizers are as crass as they come, I haven’t seen any evidence that the people disrupting those town halls are Florida-style rent-a-mobs. For the most part, the protesters appear to be genuinely angry. The question is, what are they angry about?
There was a telling incident at a town hall held by Representative Gene Green, D-Tex. An activist turned to his fellow attendees and asked if they “oppose any form of socialized or government-run health care.” Nearly all did. Then Representative Green asked how many of those present were on Medicare. Almost half raised their hands.
Now, people who don’t know that Medicare is a government program probably aren’t reacting to what President Obama is actually proposing. They may believe some of the disinformation opponents of health care reform are spreading, like the claim that the Obama plan will lead to euthanasia for the elderly. (That particular claim is coming straight from House Republican leaders.) But they’re probably reacting less to what Mr. Obama is doing, or even to what they’ve heard about what he’s doing, than to who he is.
That is, the driving force behind the town hall mobs is probably the same cultural and racial anxiety that’s behind the “birther” movement, which denies Mr. Obama’s citizenship. Senator Dick Durbin has suggested that the birthers and the health care protesters are one and the same; we don’t know how many of the protesters are birthers, but it wouldn’t be surprising if it’s a substantial fraction.
And cynical political operators are exploiting that anxiety to further the economic interests of their backers.
Does this sound familiar? It should: it’s a strategy that has played a central role in American politics ever since Richard Nixon realized that he could advance Republican fortunes by appealing to the racial fears of working-class whites.
Many people hoped that last year’s election would mark the end of the “angry white voter” era in America. Indeed, voters who can be swayed by appeals to cultural and racial fear are a declining share of the electorate.
But right now Mr. Obama’s backers seem to lack all conviction, perhaps because the prosaic reality of his administration isn’t living up to their dreams of transformation. Meanwhile, the angry right is filled with a passionate intensity.
And if Mr. Obama can’t recapture some of the passion of 2008, can’t inspire his supporters to stand up and be heard, health care reform may well fail.
| 513 |
kawfytawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:27:10pm |
re: #503 kansas
you are right...I have no intention of shouting but I do have plenty of questions. I just hate when they do the politician speak and don't answer the question...drives me batty. Chet NEVER answers questions from us and largely ignores us regarding how he plans to vote and then sends out a laughable form letter only after the vote has taken place.
| 514 |
CyanSnowHawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:27:10pm |
re: #484 yochanan
and i am sure the trains were clearner and the on board johns worked
It's hard to clog a hole in the floor.
| 515 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:27:19pm |
I was about to decide this was as Drudge et al presented it, an orchestrated attack by communard thugs, until I saw that arch-lib Rep. Kathy Castor was not even able to present her case because of heckling and disruption from the audience.
This is a direct attack on free speech and representative government. Needless to say, our side does not need to behave like a bunch of mangy hippie throwbacks from the glory days of orchestrated totalitarian "protest," the 1960s.
| 516 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:27:43pm |
re: #507 LC LaWedgie
Yeah, but I'll bet you ain't on a stinkin' dial-up.
You must be commenting from yesterday . . .
| 517 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:27:59pm |
re: #497 Sharmuta
You realize there is a high correlation between those who want to play kissy face with euro-fascists and those who want to rave and rant like leftist children and call Obama hitler?
Last time I looked, the only ones behaving like thugs in these town hall meetings were leftists.
| 518 |
BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:29:39pm |
re: #468 tfc3rid
Linky...
Well of course FORTUNE magazine would be opposed to Obama-Care -I bet they wear Brooks Brothers suits, too!
/
| 519 |
haakondahl Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:29:54pm |
re: #509 wahabicorridor
huh? No, I don't realize any such thing. Care to persuade me?
While I do not equate the two, I think that Shar hit it on the head; I see a correlation. That does not make one the other, but it does serve as a good caution.
| 520 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:30:01pm |
re: #512 HelloDare
And the 'racist' argument is getting as old as the nazi argument. Actually, I guess they aren't really arguments, just ad hominem attacks when the facts don't fit the way you want them to.
| 521 |
kawfytawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:30:14pm |
re: #515 Shiplord Kirel
I think ordinary citizens have noticed that "squeaky wheel gets the grease" ...right or wrong it may play a part in these townhalls
| 522 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:30:16pm |
re: #475 Thanos
No, that's what you are doing. I'm equating a few hotheads who shout at town meetings and discussions with the intent to disrupt them to two year olds.
That is not what I'm doing.
Look, I understand for many people, political activism is limited to voting every two years and maybe putting a bumper sticker on their car and writing a modest check to their local rep's reelection campaign. That's all well and good when things are running smoothly and the status quo is being maintained. When there is an abrupt shift in governance and people start to fear their very way of life is being threatened, they tend to get scared and angry. When they are told to shut up and furthermore, told they're anger is unjustified, the resentment builds and it's going to come out somewhere.
Elderly people who are worried that they'll be told to just take a pill instead of getting that hip replacement have valid concerns and they shouldn't be treated as children. Business owners who have been treated like piggy banks for years see a very expensive "change" with this administration are tired of being demonized and called greedy. Parents look at their children and worry that for the first time since the great depression, they will have a lower standard of living. Those concerns are not being addressed, they are being characterized as whining.
| 523 |
dwells38 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:30:25pm |
re: #499 kansas
Yes and she's an elected official that's the Dem's fearless leader and boss in the house. Not a political talk show host.
I was surprised some actually downdinged me here for pointing that out in an earlier comment.
Not sure whether that's because there actually were protesters with swastikas (I've not seen any) or whether those folks think Beck and Limbaugh should be more responsible but Pelosi doesn 't need to.
| 524 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:30:30pm |
re: #502 Pianobuff
Here's a thought exercise...
If, in the last two months, public support for
theObamacare hadn't caved (and is still cratering), what would be happening?Would we be having these townhall "crises"? Or would this be playing out entirely differently.
Inquiring minds want to know.
PIMF
| 525 |
eschew_obfuscation Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:30:38pm |
re: #436 doubter4444
That's horse-shit.
No it's not.
Most of these people know next to nothing about the bill, as witness the guy who claimed that Medicare was not a government program.
I have no idea how you would know that... one guy is not "most".
And they are not being told to shut up because they don't know what they are talking about, even though they don't; they're told to quiet down and be civil. Is that so wrong?
They were not told to shut up IN THE MEETING. But we have a new example of where that impression comes from in this quote from Obama:
'I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess'...
...in addition to other cases, many times in town hall meetings where the rep or senator has told people that they don't know what they're talking about. It's possible that in one instance in the crowd someone didn't know what he/she was talking about, but the message that is heard by the rest of the crowd is that they're ignorant, they're not as highly knowledgeable as their rep and can, therefore be ignored. That's the message that's being protested in these meetings.
And have you even considered that if a whole bunch of rabble rouser's get in first (as has been urged to do so by the fucking head of the republican party, for Pete's sake) THEY will the large portion of the audience?
You don't get people to go to these events unless they, themselves, have a reason to be there. Here's Peggy Noonan on just that point.
"What has been most unsettling is not the congressmen’s surprise but a hard new tone that emerged this week. The leftosphere and the liberal commentariat charged that the town hall meetings weren’t authentic, the crowds were ginned up by insurance companies, lobbyists and the Republican National Committee. But you can’t get people to leave their homes and go to a meeting with a congressman (of all people) unless they are engaged to the point of passion. And what tends to agitate people most is the idea of loss—loss of money hard earned, loss of autonomy, loss of the few things that work in a great sweeping away of those that don’t."
And as for "demanding to be represented", as you mention above, in some of the districts where this is happening the Representative won by 70 to 80 plus of the vote.
Clearly, you missed the point.
They voted for a rep or senator that they don't feel is LISTENING TO THEM. And they're trying to get him/her to start.
Man, I try to be polite, but that comment is just bogglingly dumb.
As for this little gem... Instead of trying to be polite, I will actually do it and withhold any further response.
| 526 |
experiencedtraveller Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:30:43pm |
re: #383 Ojoe
Becket was murdered by a remark.
Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?
Ah Thomas Becket... good stuff.
Which leads to Henry II and the Angevin Curse:
It is the common fate of sons to be misunderstood by their fathers, and of fathers to be unloved of their sons, but it has been the particular bane of the English throne.
I miss the twelfth century...
| 527 |
Born Again Republican Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:30:45pm |
Youtube Video>HITLER RANTS ABOUT OBAMA HEALTHCARE AND RIGHT WINGERS/a>
:-)
| 528 |
LC LaWedgie Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:31:16pm |
re: #512 HelloDare
A race to destroy all eevil doctors, greedy insurance companies, pollutive manufacturers, fire-belching infernal combustion vehicles from hell, and paycheck earners in other than the enlightened arts.
| 529 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:31:26pm |
re: #509 wahabicorridor
huh? No, I don't realize any such thing. Care to persuade me?
Pamela Geller.
| 530 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:31:39pm |
re: #522 Wendya
That is not what I'm doing.
Look, I understand for many people, political activism is limited to voting every two years and maybe putting a bumper sticker on their car and writing a modest check to their local rep's reelection campaign. That's all well and good when things are running smoothly and the status quo is being maintained. When there is an abrupt shift in governance and people start to fear their very way of life is being threatened, they tend to get scared and angry. When they are told to shut up and furthermore, told they're anger is unjustified, the resentment builds and it's going to come out somewhere.
Elderly people who are worried that they'll be told to just take a pill instead of getting that hip replacement have valid concerns and they shouldn't be treated as children. Business owners who have been treated like piggy banks for years see a very expensive "change" with this administration are tired of being demonized and called greedy. Parents look at their children and worry that for the first time since the great depression, they will have a lower standard of living. Those concerns are not being addressed, they are being characterized as whining.
I see I can't dissuade you from constructing a strawman that wasn't there in my words.
| 531 |
ladycatnip Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:31:58pm |
I've been watching the town hall meetings - the AARP was especially disgusting the way it was run. The gal running it was rude, condescending and arrogant. These people have no desire to "listen" to dissenting views on their socialist health care package.
Here's the problem - the shouting would cease if the dems would shut up and listen to their own constituents instead of calling them names or accusing them of wearing swastikas. The pompous arrogance of the left is what is fueling this. "We know what's best for you" does not cut it here in America.
| 532 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:32:10pm |
re: #519 haakondahl
While I do not equate the two, I think that Shar hit it on the head; I see a correlation. That does not make one the other, but it does serve as a good caution.
A crrelation of WHAT? People who disrupt town hall mtgs are kissing up to euro-facists? Or are 'like' them or what? I'm really not following...
| 533 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:32:16pm |
re: #512 HelloDare
According to a Nobel prize winner Paul Krugman, the driving force behind the town hall mobs is race.
But while the organizers are as crass as they come, I haven’t seen any evidence that the people disrupting those town halls are Florida-style rent-a-mobs. For the most part, the protesters appear to be genuinely angry. The question is, what are they angry about?
There was a telling incident at a town hall held by Representative Gene Green, D-Tex. An activist turned to his fellow attendees and asked if they “oppose any form of socialized or government-run health care.” Nearly all did. Then Representative Green asked how many of those present were on Medicare. Almost half raised their hands.
Now, people who don’t know that Medicare is a government program probably aren’t reacting to what President Obama is actually proposing. They may believe some of the disinformation opponents of health care reform are spreading, like the claim that the Obama plan will lead to euthanasia for the elderly. (That particular claim is coming straight from House Republican leaders.) But they’re probably reacting less to what Mr. Obama is doing, or even to what they’ve heard about what he’s doing, than to who he is.
That is, the driving force behind the town hall mobs is probably the same cultural and racial anxiety that’s behind the “birther” movement, which denies Mr. Obama’s citizenship. Senator Dick Durbin has suggested that the birthers and the health care protesters are one and the same; we don’t know how many of the protesters are birthers, but it wouldn’t be surprising if it’s a substantial fraction.
And cynical political operators are exploiting that anxiety to further the economic interests of their backers.
Does this sound familiar? It should: it’s a strategy that has played a central role in American politics ever since Richard Nixon realized that he could advance Republican fortunes by appealing to the racial fears of working-class whites.
Many people hoped that last year’s election would mark the end of the “angry white voter” era in America. Indeed, voters who can be swayed by appeals to cultural and racial fear are a declining share of the electorate.
But right now Mr. Obama’s backers seem to lack all conviction, perhaps because the prosaic reality of his administration isn’t living up to their dreams of transformation. Meanwhile, the angry right is filled with a passionate intensity.
And if Mr. Obama can’t recapture some of the passion of 2008, can’t inspire his supporters to stand up and be heard, health care reform may well fail.
How many race cards are there in a deck of race cards? 52? More?
| 534 |
Dreader1962 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:32:33pm |
There is a bit of a problem with regards to news coverage of opposition to any political proposal. Because most of our 24-hour news channels have become obsessed with the tabloid format, there will only be coverage of debacles like this. Calm people reasonably discussing a subject for 1 or 2 hours does not make for exciting television (and this subject needs a great deal of time). As I've observed the degeneration of news over the past 25 years, I've noticed that most news stories do not exceed 3 minutes, are prefaced by meaningless comments by the newscaster, include some form of video and are often supplemented by two talking heads talking over each other.
Fox News is particularly bad with this. I stopped watching it altogether
| 536 |
FrogMarch Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:32:53pm |
re: #512 HelloDare
No, Krugman, it's only about race - TO YOU. According to you, Krugman, we have a African-American man in the white house and how dare anyone disagree with him. That's the standard leftist line. and it's tired.
(and yes - the birthers are idiots, we know that already)
| 537 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:32:56pm |
re: #528 LC LaWedgie
A race to destroy all eevil doctors, greedy insurance companies, pollutive manufacturers, fire-belching infernal combustion vehicles from hell, and paycheck earners in other than the enlightened arts.
You left out rapacious bankers and soul-dead logocentric male scientists.
| 538 |
doubter4444 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:33:01pm |
re: #357 Ben Hur
I have yet to see anywhere near what we saw (because suddenly they're gone)- or what I would see everyweekend in NYC - against Bush, led by the Troofers.
Wow, you lived in a different NYC then I did, or is that just hyperbole? I saw the occasional protest march and there were a few die hards at corners with placards and or candles what have you, but shouting mobs descending on... who or what exactly?
| 539 |
haakondahl Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:33:03pm |
re: #496 kawfytawk
My congressman Chet Edwards finally agreed to a town hall after oodles of requests but we must each sign a document saying we won't shout...LOL
As much as I think that shouting at these things is counterproductive, and not the way to win; where does a representative get off "agreeing" to meet the voters, and setting ground rules? I don't recall anybody clamoring for solemnity at whip-em-up rallies during campaigns before elections.
It seems that enthusiasm is welcome only when it benefits the office holder.
| 540 |
bush's babe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:34:26pm |
re: #515 Shiplord Kirel
Anyone else tried of being told to "shutup!" in PC terms?
| 542 |
Scion9 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:34:42pm |
re: #515 Shiplord Kirel
How long was the townhall? Was the entire thing shouted down from beginning to end or was security able to bring it under control? I don't know, as all the clips I've seen are ~5 minutes long or less and contain a lot of the same footage.
I agree with not shutting down townhalls, but I'm also skeptical of it actually being 'shut down' for the entire allotted time as well, and that the situation was never brought under control. I've seen a lot of academics and presenters at colleges claiming that they were 'shouted down' when in fact they were just treated rudely, or consistent hecklers were able to keep them off message in the QA session. Being kept off balance by people during the QA isn't being 'shouted down', and nor is a 15 minute protest that campus security brings under control but I've heard a lot of professors and guest lecturers claim otherwise.
Can anyone link a video of the entire townhall meeting from top to bottom or news articles citing its cancellation due to protesters?
| 544 |
haakondahl Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:34:59pm |
re: #512 HelloDare
According to a Nobel prize winner Paul Krugman, the driving force behind the town hall mobs is race.
Steaming Bullshit. Krugman is a DNC shill, and will say whatever crosses his mind if it works out for the Democrats.
| 545 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:35:53pm |
re: #501 Slumbering Behemoth
Wanting people to behave like grown, civil adults is not at all the same as wanting people to shut up. Thanos has been very clear in making that distinction, and it is not that difficult to understand where he is coming from.
Well, you know... when the supposed adults who represent "the people" actually start being responsive to constituents who do not support government health care, maybe we can start having a civil conversation. When people are being ignored, they tend to raise their voice.
| 546 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:36:56pm |
re: #529 Sharmuta
Pamela Geller.
THAT'S A HIGH CORRELATION?
Actually, I never read anything she writes - did she really do the Obama/Hitler thing? Missed out on the irony gene there, I would think.
| 547 |
haakondahl Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:37:15pm |
Allow me to link this again--this audio from an AARP meeting with seniors is not (I certainly hope!) representative of all these Town Hall meetings, but what would you do if confronted with something like this?
I'd start yelling, I suppose.
| 548 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:37:27pm |
Letter from the attorney of the conservative that was beaten by SEIU.
August 7, 2009
Dear Mr. Hennessy:
I am Kenneth Gladney’s attorney. Kenneth was attacked on the evening of August 6, 2009 at Rep. Russ Carnahan’s town hall meeting in South St. Louis County. I was at the town hall meeting as well and witnessed the events leading up to the attack of Kenneth. Kenneth was approached by an SEIU representative as Kenneth was handing out “Don’t Tread on Me” flags to other conservatives. The SEIU representative demanded to know why a black man was handing out these flags. The SEIU member used a racial slur against Kenneth, then punched him in the face. Kenneth fell to the ground. Another SEIU member yelled racial epithets at Kenneth as he kicked him in the head and back. Kenneth was also brutally attacked by one other male SEIU member and an unidentified woman. The three men were clearly SEIU members, as they were wearing T-shirts with the SEIU logo.
Kenneth was beaten badly. One assailant fled on foot; three others were arrested. Kenneth was admitted to St. John’s Mercy Medical Center emergency room, where he was treated for his numerous injuries. Kenneth was merely expressing his freedom of speech by handing out the flags. In fact, he merely asked people as they exited the town hall meeting whether they would like a flag. He in no way provoked any argument or altercation, as evidenced by the fact that three assailants were arrested.
We hope that Kenneth fully recovers from his injuries; however, he is in great pain at this time. We will be pursuing legal action at our discretion. This was a truly senseless hate crime carried out by racist union thugs. Regretfully, Representative Carnahan’s statements blaming Kenneth for being a disruptive force are wholly untrue and slanderous. We would like to think that an elected official in Representative Carnahan’s position would gather accurate information before carelessly rushing to judgment.
Kenneth supports conservative ideals, although he subscribes to no particular political party. We are calling on the SEIU, Representative Carnahan, and President Obama to condemn the racist actions of these union thugs. In the days to come, we will be investigating whether these thugs are working at the behest of Representative Carnahan and how strong their alliances to various organizations–such as ACORN–may be.
We hope the St. Louis Tea Party and tea party organizations around the country will protest Representative Carnahan’s offices and also protest SEIU offices in every major city across the U.S. These Democratic strong-arm tactics must end now.
Regards,
Attorney David B. Brown
| 549 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:37:28pm |
re: #530 Thanos
I see I can't dissuade you from constructing a strawman that wasn't there in my words.
Nor can I dissuade you from drawing a false conclusion from what I posted.
| 550 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:37:36pm |
re: #531 ladycatnip
I've been watching the town hall meetings - the AARP was especially disgusting the way it was run. The gal running it was rude, condescending and arrogant. These people have no desire to "listen" to dissenting views on their socialist health care package.
Here's the problem - the shouting would cease if the dems would shut up and listen to their own constituents instead of calling them names or accusing them of wearing swastikas. The pompous arrogance of the left is what is fueling this. "We know what's best for you" does not cut it here in America.
Amen re AARP. She got all snotty when they asked her if she worked for them, or they worked for her. She showed them by leaving. But, these people get cast in the role of Angry Mob. Not buying it.
| 551 |
albusteve Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:37:52pm |
re: #538 doubter4444
Wow, you lived in a different NYC then I did, or is that just hyperbole? I saw the occasional protest march and there were a few die hards at corners with placards and or candles what have you, but shouting mobs descending on... who or what exactly?
wow..NYC is pretty big...is it true you can be everywhere at once?...did you make up the part about shouting mobs?
| 552 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:37:56pm |
re: #541 rightymouse
My freedom won't be silenced.
No one is suggesting that. My point is some of the cheerleaders for whipping folks up into a frenzy have sleazy friends. I know what I think about that correlation, but it's up to others to decide what it means to them. That is, of course, if they even notice it. I've noticed and I'm not alone.
| 553 |
Creeping Eruption Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:39:30pm |
re: #540 bush's babe
Anyone else tried of being told to "shutup!" in PC terms?
What is "shut up" in PC? One must observe "companion silence?"
| 554 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:39:31pm |
re: #547 haakondahl
Allow me to link this again--this audio from an AARP meeting with seniors is not (I certainly hope!) representative of all these Town Hall meetings, but what would you do if confronted with something like this?
I'd start yelling, I suppose.
Classic.
"We want to hear from you" unless, of course, you oppose our position.
| 555 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:39:33pm |
re: #531 ladycatnip
Here's the thing about the Dallas AARP mtg - NOBODY was yelling! People were fine until that woman started treating them like supplicants, telling them they could ask questions in the 'public' section of the meeting, telling them THEY weren't running the mtg, etc. Even then they didn't yell. She simply didn't like being challenged.
| 556 |
Dreader1962 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:39:55pm |
re: #534 Dreader1962
Oh, and by the way, we may be seeing a disproportionate number of these 'disrupted' meetings because they make for 'exciting television'. We will not see the calm opposition, will we?
| 557 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:40:04pm |
re: #546 wahabicorridor
That's just the tip of the iceberg. If you want to know more about it, take the time to look, because you'll believe your own eyes better than anything I say or link.
| 558 |
wintercat Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:40:28pm |
re: #512 HelloDare
www.nytimes.com...]>But they’re probably reacting less to what Mr. Obama is doing, or even to what they’ve heard about what he’s doing, than to who he is.
This is exactly the kind of thing that people are sick of. They are being insulted, demonized as racists, and dismissed. I am so tired of people exploiting race to try to gain ground for their side of the argument. I am sorry, but Mr. Krugman wants to engage in this kind of rhetoric because he is defending the indefensible. Many Americans don't want this medical monstrosity that nobody has read, that will take away their private insurance (despite all the assurances), and will lead to inferior medical care. Obama and Pelosi, et. al., are ramrodding this through and people are shoving back (metaphorically).
It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with mistrust of the government effectively managing anything (Social Security, the Stimulus, Welfare, Public Education, etc.).
| 561 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:40:58pm |
re: #552 Sharmuta
No one is suggesting that. My point is some of the cheerleaders for whipping folks up into a frenzy have sleazy friends. I know what I think about that correlation, but it's up to others to decide what it means to them. That is, of course, if they even notice it. I've noticed and I'm not alone.
My freedom won't be silenced.
| 562 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:42:12pm |
| 565 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:43:25pm |
re: #561 rightymouse
My freedom won't be silenced.
Okay. Keep in mind Freedom has many enemies and I'll see you on the front lines.
| 566 |
LC LaWedgie Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:43:30pm |
re: #559 voirdire
(heh) You're gonna have to run "Fabulously Fast" or something on that one. I'm gonna have to write my dial-up ISP a thankew letter now.
| 567 |
Randall Gross Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:43:39pm |
re: #549 Wendya
Nor can I dissuade you from drawing a false conclusion from what I posted.
Sorry, you have it bassackwards. I made a statement; you responded with a statement that you think anger works and is justified. I told you it doesn't work, and gave you some examples. You countered by stuffing words in my mouth and stuffing straw into an already combusting strawman. Please continue, you are just so helping the cause by justifying starting townhall meetings off with shouting, stomping, and chanting. (and yes, I've seen all three in these vids.) I'm out, I have an adult meeting to run and it's going to be productive because I don't let people shout.
| 568 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:45:00pm |
Asked about his organizing philosophy, Andy Stern summed it up this way: “[W]e prefer to use the power of persuasion, but if that doesn’t work we use the persuasion of power.”
That's Andy Stern of the SEIU, by the way.
| 569 |
Lincolntf Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:45:07pm |
re: #544 haakondahl
"Nobel Prize Winner" used to be a sign of Excellence. It's just another purchasable public relations tool these days.
I often wonder whether Arafat's was worth the blood and torture it took for him to earn it...
| 570 |
calcajun Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:45:12pm |
re: #561 rightymouse
Oh, zip up your pants, please.///
Seriously, who are the perps here and in other places? Is there any basis for the Dem's complaints that this is GOP astroturfing? If so, then this has the makings of a very nasty month for both sides. If it is only the Dems reacting like Hizzoner to the protesters at the 68 Convention, then this has the makings of a Democrat disaster--no matter how biased the MSM.
| 571 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:45:48pm |
Strawmen are grown in hyperbolic chambers.
| 572 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:47:15pm |
re: #560 capitalist piglet
Video
One of the protesters exlaimed, You attacked that guy! and the Union member's response was: He attacked America!
It's kind of hard to have any debate, loud or not, when punches are thrown.
| 573 |
haakondahl Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:47:31pm |
re: #532 wahabicorridor
A crrelation of WHAT? People who disrupt town hall mtgs are kissing up to euro-facists? Or are 'like' them or what? I'm really not following...
This is what I agreed with:
You realize there is a high correlation between those who want to play kissy face with euro-fascists and those who want to rave and rant like leftist children and call Obama hitler?
I hope nobody will defend "ranting and raving like leftist children", and "calling Obama 'Hitler' ".
I don't have any problem with excitement at Town Hall meetings. This is exciting stuff, not to mention terrifying in the long term. There's plenty of room for angry dissent, like the lady who challenged Senator Arlen Specter, without stampeding into raving leftist "tear it all down" blind fury.
And I see the line between those as the same line which separates being anti-Jihad in the sense of LGF, and being "anti-Jihad" in the sense of racism and religious oppression.
p.s., Yes I know that racism has nothing to do with religious or political systems. The problem is that the Geller und Vlaams crowd don't.
| 574 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:47:31pm |
re: #570 calcajun
Oh, zip up your pants, please.///
Seriously, who are the perps here and in other places? Is there any basis for the Dem's complaints that this is GOP astroturfing? If so, then this has the makings of a very nasty month for both sides. If it is only the Dems reacting like Hizzoner to the protesters at the 68 Convention, then this has the makings of a Democrat disaster--no matter how biased the MSM.
IMO, this is all about the wheels falling of the bus of Obamacare in the court of public opinion.
We haven't seen Obama lose before.
| 575 |
Dr. Gene Squat Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:48:03pm |
re: #548 Pianobuff
Everyone knows all of this can be settled by a couple of beers at the White House.
(insert large, wet raspberry here)
| 576 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:48:18pm |
re: #570 calcajun
Oh, zip up your pants, please.///
Seriously, who are the perps here and in other places? Is there any basis for the Dem's complaints that this is GOP astroturfing? If so, then this has the makings of a very nasty month for both sides. If it is only the Dems reacting like Hizzoner to the protesters at the 68 Convention, then this has the makings of a Democrat disaster--no matter how biased the MSM.
They ARE astroturfing. Real "grassroots" wears black berets.
| 577 |
bush's babe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:49:05pm |
re: #553 Creeping Eruption
I feel like I am talking the my 4 year old niece... "But Why???" You know what I mean. Saying people are too loud and that we all need to sit and be "nice" and listen and talk in a calm voice when asking a question... *Blah*
| 578 |
CyanSnowHawk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:50:10pm |
| 580 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:51:25pm |
re: #565 Sharmuta
Okay. Keep in mind Freedom has many enemies and I'll see you on the front lines.
I've seen the worst that can be dealt to humanity & I saw that in my twenties cleaning up after the communist mess in SE Asia.
Will be there on the front lines with you to fight the totalitarian bastards of any stripe.
| 581 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:53:34pm |
re: #526 experiencedtraveller
If I had a time machine I'd go back and carve stone for the cathedrals.
| 582 |
Code Red 21 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:53:56pm |
Any of these democrat representatives that allow, through their silence, the union and acorn thugs to beat up American citizens, who are peacefully protesting against this monstrous take-over and power grab by the government, need to be drummed out of office. I would add what I think Patrick Henry would do to them but I'd get banned. The lousy f'ers
| 583 |
Sharmuta Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:53:58pm |
re: #580 rightymouse
Cool! I'm going to go see the latest Potter film. If I don't see you later, I hope you have a nice weekend, righty.
| 584 |
Banner Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:54:03pm |
re: #6 Sharmuta
My stars! This is the face of current political debate in this country. We are well and truly screwed if we can't sit down and have a discussion like adult and rational people.
Oh please. When has the left ever sat down and 'had a discussion'? Sending out the Union thugs and bully boys has always been their favorite tactic. Heck even Obama admits that, which is why he keeps telling his followers to resort to violence with his 'hit back twice hard' and other little catchphrases.
It wasn't until Obama sent his minions out that it turned violent. And it is gonna get a lot worse.
| 585 |
haakondahl Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:54:24pm |
re: #572 Wendya
One of the protesters exlaimed, You attacked that guy! and the Union member's response was: He attacked America!
It's kind of hard to have any debate, loud or not, when punches are thrown.
It's harder when you lose.
| 586 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:55:52pm |
re: #584 Banner
In all fairness, I think the 'hit back twice as hard' remark was rhetorical.
| 587 |
haakondahl Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:56:05pm |
re: #574 Pianobuff
IMO, this is all about the wheels falling of the bus of Obamacare in the court of public opinion.
We haven't seen Obama lose before.
More to the point, he has not seen himelf lose before. Stand by for some EPIC tantrums. Kids on playgrounds without competitive somebody-goes-home-crying sports grow up into oversized adolescents who shoot people for passing in traffic.
| 588 |
VegasRick Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:56:06pm |
| 589 |
VegasRick Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:56:46pm |
re: #587 haakondahl
More to the point, he has not seen himelf lose before. Stand by for some EPIC tantrums. Kids on playgrounds without competitive somebody-goes-home-crying sports grow up into oversized adolescents who shoot people for passing in traffic.
100% correct.
| 590 |
kansas Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:56:48pm |
re: #584 Banner
Oh please. When has the left ever sat down and 'had a discussion'? Sending out the Union thugs and bully boys has always been their favorite tactic. Heck even Obama admits that, which is why he keeps telling his followers to resort to violence with his 'hit back twice hard' and other little catchphrases.
It wasn't until Obama sent his minions out that it turned violent. And it is gonna get a lot worse.
Didn't he mention they would bring a gun to a knife fight? Hasn't he encouraged his supporters to "get up in their faces"? Or is it just my imagination?
| 591 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 12:58:58pm |
re: #590 kansas
Didn't he mention they would bring a gun to a knife fight? Hasn't he encouraged his supporters to "get up in their faces"? Or is it just my imagination?
I missed the 'gun to a knife fight' if he said it, and I don't think 'get in their faces' meant anything more than being forceful and not backing down.
| 592 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:00:11pm |
re: #591 wahabicorridor
I missed the 'gun to a knife fight' if he said it, and I don't think 'get in their faces' meant anything more than being forceful and not backing down.
Good of him to put it so eloquently.
| 593 |
Land Shark Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:01:14pm |
re: #490 Kosh's Shadow
Absolutely, there's plenty of examples of negligence by both doctors and manufacturers. And they deserve to be made to pay when they are negligent.
But from my now nearly 30 years of experience working with medical equipment manufacturers, most are very conscientious and make every effort to make sure their equipment is safe and effective. I've visited my share of factories in the US and Canada and seen the extremes some of these companies go to in order to make sure their equipment is safe and effective.
We dropped a manufacturer some years ago because we became concerned about their integrity and commitment to quality. After all, since we're reps our asses could be on the line too. That's why we try to deal only with high quality products. We're far from the cheapest, but everything we sell is a high quality, extensively tested product.
I think the problem is so bad because so many insurance companies think it's cheaper to settle than fight. That opened the floodgates of litigation wide open.
| 594 |
doubter4444 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:01:35pm |
re: #551 albusteve
I was responding to:
I have yet to see anywhere near what we saw (because suddenly they're gone)- or what I would see everyweekend in NYC - against Bush, led by the Troofers.
I lived in New York for twenty years and recently moved to the west coast.
Other than the occasional organized march, I saw little of what Ben Hur seemed to imply was a vocal, unruly, contested scene, comparable to the level of the goings on at the town halls today.
Mostly I saw, as I mentioned, people holding vigils or whatever, not screaming groups, and those people were there everyday, not just weekends. And they seemed pretty harmless and kind of pathetic.
Most things of that type center in areas that most locals pass through fairly often, like the Astor Place or the Park, sometimes the UN (but you get shooed away from there very quickly if you don't have a permit).
Is that clearer?
| 595 |
Code Red 21 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:01:39pm |
re: #586 wahabicorridor
In all fairness, I think the 'hit back twice as hard' remark was rhetorical.
Then maybe the great communicator can take time out of his busy day to explain that to the thugs he turned loose on innocent Americans who were utilizing their 1st amendment rights to protest his f'ing bullshit.
| 596 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:01:41pm |
re: #592 voirdire
Good of him to put it so eloquently.
That's the community organizer in him, inspiring the troops to ever greater glory!
/get with the program already
| 597 |
Ward Cleaver Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:02:33pm |
I went to a fight, and town hall broke out!
/rimshot
| 598 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:03:33pm |
re: #583 Sharmuta
Cool! I'm going to go see the latest Potter film. If I don't see you later, I hope you have a nice weekend, righty.
Am off soon to a nephew's b-day party. Hope you have a good weekend too. :)
| 599 |
redstateredneck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:03:37pm |
Is this where the cool kids are hanging out? Hey, {all y'all}.
| 601 |
Ward Cleaver Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:04:16pm |
| 602 |
kansas Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:04:39pm |
re: #593 Land Shark
Absolutely, there's plenty of examples of negligence by both doctors and manufacturers. And they deserve to be made to pay when they are negligent.
But from my now nearly 30 years of experience working with medical equipment manufacturers, most are very conscientious and make every effort to make sure their equipment is safe and effective. I've visited my share of factories in the US and Canada and seen the extremes some of these companies go to in order to make sure their equipment is safe and effective.
We dropped a manufacturer some years ago because we became concerned about their integrity and commitment to quality. After all, since we're reps our asses could be on the line too. That's why we try to deal only with high quality products. We're far from the cheapest, but everything we sell is a high quality, extensively tested product.
I think the problem is so bad because so many insurance companies think it's cheaper to settle than fight. That opened the floodgates of litigation wide open.
Insurance companies settle because that controls the outcome whereas a jury can come back with some idiotic verdict. The purpose of a jury trial is not truth, it is for one side or the other to win. And this is decided by folks who couldn't get out of jury duty.
| 603 |
Creeping Eruption Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:05:20pm |
| 604 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:05:41pm |
re: #595 Code Red 21
Then maybe the great communicator can take time out of his busy day to explain that to the thugs he turned loose on innocent Americans who were utilizing their 1st amendment rights to protest his f'ing bullshit.
Fat chance. He put the unions in the stimulus legislation. Remember when he came out and said if you want stimulus money for jobs, union jobs must get first dibs in the bidding process? William Longeness reported from Calif on Fox this morning. He said that a lot of bureaucratic problem was because businesses had to find union workers or their non-union workers had to pay dues into the union pension funds.
It's called extortion. No way he's cutting them loose.
| 605 |
ladycatnip Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:07:02pm |
This is what will ratchet up the violence - WH says punch back twice as hard.
What kind of leader of the free world says that? He and this admin are not in the least bit interested in what we citizens have to say, but would rather sic his Chicago style thugs on those who disagree with him. What happened to the Won's soaring rhetoric - if he's elected he'll heal our lands and the seas will cease to rise?
The man in the WH is a bully. And bullies don't like losing.
| 606 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:07:30pm |
Seems to me that the debate is over. The people have made up their mind, and they're pissed. That's why the politicians are being shouted down.
Vote for that bill, and you will not be returning to DC. This started small and has only grown.I hadn't seen any violence until the last couple of days, hmm I wonder why that is...
Of course, I reserve the right to be wrong here, my .02
| 607 |
GGMac Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:08:08pm |
re: #19 Honorary Yooper
Sounds like both sides went in intending to do battle, and that's exactly what they did.
BTW, who is the group, "Organizing for America"?
IIRC that is the new name of ACORN; changed in the hope people won't realize who they are - a feeble 'facelift': New shirts, same people, same tactics. Chicago thuggery personified.
| 608 |
kansas Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:08:30pm |
re: #606 SasquatchOnSteroids
Seems to me that the debate is over. The people have made up their mind, and they're pissed. That's why the politicians are being shouted down.
Vote for that bill, and you will not be returning to DC. This started small and has only grown.I hadn't seen any violence until the last couple of days, hmm I wonder why that is...Of course, I reserve the right to be wrong here, my .02
The Dems will bus in enough illegals and have enough dead people vote in order to win back their seats./
| 609 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:09:08pm |
re: #605 ladycatnip
Please. Can we please just stipulate that no one in the WH was advocating physical altercation? Please?
| 610 |
Banner Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:09:14pm |
re: #586 wahabicorridor
In all fairness, I think the 'hit back twice as hard' remark was rhetorical.
No, no it wasn't. It was a call to escalation. It was not the words of someone trying to make peace or find common ground.
| 611 |
kansas Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:10:34pm |
re: #605 ladycatnip
This is what will ratchet up the violence - WH says punch back twice as hard.
What kind of leader of the free world says that? He and this admin are not in the least bit interested in what we citizens have to say, but would rather sic his Chicago style thugs on those who disagree with him. What happened to the Won's soaring rhetoric - if he's elected he'll heal our lands and the seas will cease to rise?
The man in the WH is a bully. And bullies don't like losing.
What is wrong with you? “They are just helping us understand the fringe that is trying to mess up our meetings,” said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.). You know, and make us like, read the bill, and tell the truth about it. Bastards. Nazis./
| 612 |
Banner Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:10:56pm |
re: #609 wahabicorridor
Please. Can we please just stipulate that no one in the WH was advocating physical altercation? Please?
Sorry, but Obama has a history of saying such things to his supporters. So do all of his Union followers. It was a clear call to violence.
| 613 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:11:27pm |
re: #610 Banner
No, no it wasn't. It was a call to escalation. It was not the words of someone trying to make peace or find common ground.
I agree with that much. But I'll be damned if I'll accuse the WH of advocating violence, which is what I thought your intent was.
Apologies if I misunderstood.
| 614 |
Scion9 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:11:31pm |
re: #573 haakondahl
These kinds of correlations are usually irrelevant. There are a lot of correlations that can be made between the most rabid opposition of the European far-right and genocidal bigotry of Israelis. Even if I'm a foaming at the mouth ranter against a crypto-Nazi rally just like all of the Antifa counter-protesters doesn't really mean anything, especially that I am somehow endorsing, condoning or contributing to their Palestinian terror apologetics.
My example above is just as specious. I don't disagree that there are almost definitely a lot more members of the BNP American fanclub among the anti-healthcare reform crowd than on the other side, but even if they were conducting themselves totally peaceably and coherently, and the other side was putting on its absolutely worst possible manner that doesn't mean that the other side is now more likely to be more rife than the crypto-fascist sympathizers.
There is a correlation, but the behavior isn't what is correlative.
| 615 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:12:02pm |
re: #612 Banner
Sorry, but Obama has a history of saying such things to his supporters. So do all of his Union followers. It was a clear call to violence.
*sigh*
| 616 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:12:05pm |
re: #609 wahabicorridor
Well people in positions of leadership must chose their words carefuly & if I were called on to judge, I would say that whoever said those words should be answerable.
Those words were foolish, imprudent.
| 617 |
kansas Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:12:41pm |
re: #586 wahabicorridor
In all fairness, I think the 'hit back twice as hard' remark was rhetorical.
“If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard,” Messina said, according to an official who attended the meeting.
Don't see much rhetorical about that. How about, learn the bill, fight back with facts? Sorry, too complex for anyone to actually understand.
| 618 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:12:42pm |
re: #567 Thanos
Sorry, you have it bassackwards. I made a statement; you responded with a statement that you think anger works and is justified.
Actually, that’s not exactly what I said. My point was that when people are denied an outlet and a chance to have their concerns addressed, they understandably become angry. Yes, their anger is justified and the fact that you don’t seem to understand that is troubling.
I told you it doesn't work, and gave you some examples. You countered by stuffing words in my mouth and stuffing straw into an already combusting strawman. Please continue, you are just so helping the cause by justifying starting townhall meetings off with shouting, stomping, and chanting. (and yes, I've seen all three in these vids.) I'm out, I have an adult meeting to run and it's going to be productive because I don't let people shout.
I did not “stuff words in your mouth. I merely elaborated on my earlier statements which were misinterpreted by you. I can’t make you comprehend what I said, I can only try to explain my position.
I did not justify rowdy behavior at town hall meetings. I think that behavior is better left outside in a protest rather than in the actual meeting. That said, if you held a meeting with employees, you’d probably be able to get away with dictating to them and suggesting they are ignorant and misled. If, on the other hand, you went to a meeting with clients or potential clients and handled them the same way many of these representatives are treating their constituents, by ignoring their concerns and insulting the, your behavior would immediately alienate them and create a volatile situation.
| 619 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:13:21pm |
re: #610 Banner
No, no it wasn't. It was a call to escalation. It was not the words of someone trying to make peace or find common ground.
If Obama doesn't ask for order and request that the union thugs stand down, then his silence could be taken as tacit approval.
| 620 |
WinterCat Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:13:22pm |
re: #586 wahabicorridor
In all fairness, I think the 'hit back twice as hard' remark was rhetorical.
Words really matter. Physical violence is not what was being called for here but some people will interpret it to mean just that. And that is very dangerous.
This needs to be settled down on both sides. The Obama administration and Congress need to listen, they really need listen. They have to say, "ok, let me hear what your concerns are" and then they need to actually respond to those concerns. Not with a pat on the head or empty assurances but with actual legislation that addresses those concerns. The' "I won" attitude really isn't going to help here.
Also the protesters, while they really have my sympathy because their frustration is obvious, they have been demonized and dismissed for so long, also need to step back and take a breath before something really awful occurs. They have made their point. Congress is aware of them. Now they need to try to articulate their specific concerns in a reasonable manner. After that, the ball will be in the administration's court.
| 621 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:13:49pm |
re: #603 Creeping Eruption
No, not yet.
Mt. St. Michael and Chartres by Henry Adams is superb however.
| 622 |
calcajun Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:13:56pm |
re: #581 Ojoe
If I had a time machine I'd go back and carve stone for the cathedrals.
I suggest you get vaccinated for every disease known to man before you do. Also, let a few teeth rot before hand so you'll blend in better./
| 623 |
Charpete67 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:14:33pm |
re: #619 rightymouse
If Obama doesn't ask for order and request that the union thugs stand down, then his silence could be taken as tacit approval.
...agreed...until he says those union thugs acted stupidly, he is complicit.
where's this great unifier?
| 624 |
Banner Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:15:39pm |
re: #615 wahabicorridor
*sigh*
Excuse me for getting it right. Things were quiet until he called on his people through that letter to 'hit back twice as hard'. Then suddenly we have union people showing up and fights breaking out.
This is not the first time it has happened. Nor will it be the last. The sooner everyone calls Obama on this behavior, the sooner we have a chance of shaming him into stopping it. Making excuses for him will never get him to change his ways.
| 625 |
moderndayprayer Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:16:06pm |
re: #612 Banner
Sorry, but Obama has a history of saying such things to his supporters. So do all of his Union followers. It was a clear call to violence.
I don't think it was a call to violence but it was a very very bad choice of words.
Especially when your base (unions) are known to be associated rightly or wrongly with violence.
| 626 |
redstateredneck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:16:14pm |
re: #616 Ojoe
Well people in positions of leadership must chose their words carefuly & if I were called on to judge, I would say that whoever said those words should be answerable.
Those words were foolish, imprudent.
I have to agree with you. He needed to be aware of how those words would be taken by his supporters who are incensed that the rest of the country dares to not be in support of his healthcare reform.
| 627 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:16:19pm |
re: #622 calcajun
All the young had good teeth
You didn't live as long
you didn't need too
it was more intense.
| 628 |
Charpete67 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:16:47pm |
re: #625 moderndayprayer
I don't think it was a call to violence but it was a very very bad choice of words.
Especially when your base (unions) are known to be associated rightly or wrongly with violence.
if it wasn't a call to violence, then come out and condemn it.
| 629 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:17:23pm |
re: #616 Ojoe
Well people in positions of leadership must chose their words carefuly & if I were called on to judge, I would say that whoever said those words should be answerable.
Those words were foolish, imprudent.
First off, if that statement had been a public statement, I would agree. But it wasn't. It was made, if the source is accurate, in a meeting that was not public.
Here's a hint: THERE IS A LOT OF TESTOSTERONE IN WASHINGTON. People talk like this. I've been in meetings where staff pick up a cell phone, and tells the person on the other end, "Tell your boss he gets on this bill or my boss will have his balls for lunch".
Come to think of it, the same thing goes on in regular private businesses.
Take a pill.
| 630 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:18:37pm |
re: #629 wahabicorridor
Washington has a problem and I'll not take a pill.
| 631 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:19:28pm |
re: #629 wahabicorridor
Fact is, it's the nature of the world today. It's not going to get better.
| 632 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:20:04pm |
re: #624 Banner
Things were quiet until he called on his people through that letter to 'hit back twice as hard'.
What letter? My understanding is that this was said in a meeting?
Seriously, am I missing something?
| 633 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:20:09pm |
re: #623 Charpete67
...agreed...until he says those union thugs acted stupidly, he is complicit.
where's this great unifier?
He's used to having his own way until now.
Was never a unifier -that's just leftist drivel.
| 634 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:20:52pm |
re: #629 wahabicorridor
It is a public statement now, circulating now, beyond possibility of recall.
I do not think this administration is any good at all for civility in our country/
| 635 |
Banner Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:21:04pm |
re: #629 wahabicorridor
First off, if that statement had been a public statement, I would agree. But it wasn't. It was made, if the source is accurate, in a meeting that was not public.
Here's a hint: THERE IS A LOT OF TESTOSTERONE IN WASHINGTON. People talk like this. I've been in meetings where staff pick up a cell phone, and tells the person on the other end, "Tell your boss he gets on this bill or my boss will have his balls for lunch".
Come to think of it, the same thing goes on in regular private businesses.
Take a pill.
You need to stop making excuses. Leaders do NOT make excuses, they take ownership and they lead. The very fact that you are having to make all of these excuses should tell you something. Obama is simply following Chicago rules, when he said it, he knew it would spread, and he knew what would happen. If he didn't, he'd be all over the place asking for calm to prevail, etc. But he's staying quiet, for now, until the pressure grows to a point where he'll have to say something. Most likely with a wink and a nod as he blames the victims for the crime.
Welcome to Chicago politics.
| 636 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:21:18pm |
If a building is at capacity, no one else gets in. That's the law, and no amount of temper tantrums will change that.
But hey, fuck the fire code, it's a stupid rule anyway. They say it's for public safety, but we know it's really a tool of the Demoncrat Thugocracy to steal our liberties and silence our voices.
///
| 637 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:21:22pm |
re: #630 Ojoe
Washington has a problem and I'll not take a pill.
Heh. You have no idea. My husband has been a lobbyist here for almost 30 years. Before that he was congressional staff.
I have stories that would make your toes curl.
| 639 |
jamgarr Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:22:13pm |
| 640 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:22:34pm |
re: #637 wahabicorridor
Do they have any idea of the contempt in which they are held by the ordinary citizen such as myself?
| 641 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:22:53pm |
Fox News: Messina, the deputy White House chief of staff, also said any advertising attack would be met with a bigger response, these officials said.
"If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard," Messina told senators, according to two people in the room.
"It's a challenge, no question about it, and you've got to get out there and make the case," Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., said afterward. "This is not the time for the faint-hearted."
White House aides distributed briefing materials explaining to senators the points Obama is stressing, as well as how to answer commonly asked questions.
| 642 |
Charpete67 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:23:13pm |
re: #633 rightymouse
He's used to having his own way until now.
Was never a unifier -that's just leftist drivel.
yep...still wondering where Jackson, Sharpton and Obama are on the black conservative being beat up by the white SIEU thugs. I scanned the thread and saw it was touched on, but I haven't heard any reaction from them.
| 643 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:23:25pm |
re: #635 Banner
Obama is simply following Chicago rules, when he said it,
OBAMA DIDN'T SAY IT
I don't make excuses. I've worked with Congress people for 6 years, my husband for 30 at least. To tell the truth about the way something works is not making excuses.
| 644 |
redstateredneck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:24:26pm |
re: #642 Charpete67
yep...still wondering where Jackson, Sharpton and Obama are on the black conservative being beat up by the white SIEU thugs. I scanned the thread and saw it was touched on, but I haven't heard any reaction from them.
Don't hold your breath.
| 645 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:25:27pm |
re: #643 wahabicorridor
He didn't say it, but, now he owns it. Maybe he'll go cry to Bush about it.
| 646 |
jamgarr Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:26:40pm |
re: #489 kansas
My Congressman, Dennis Moore, refuses to hold a town hall, and won't go on the local talk show with actual questions. He will, however, go on a morning show where two doodahs will let him regurgitate his talking points. That's his idea of dialogue, apparently.
Your lupines, or your life!
| 648 |
ladycatnip Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:27:12pm |
#609 wahabicorridor
Please. Can we please just stipulate that no one in the WH was advocating physical altercation? Please?
Words mean things, especially in politics. For the WH (Messina) to use this turn of phrase was stupid, plain and simple. The WH is obviously not reigning in their own people, or Pelosi would've been smacked for what she said. Their rhetoric and refusal to listen to the American people is absolutely fueling this. Sending in SEIU or ACORN is also an invitation to physical violence.
The WH could shut this down in a NY minute - simply by reassuring the American people they WILL listen and that they DO care more about what we Americans think than shoving their socialized health care agenda down our throats.
| 649 |
jamgarr Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:28:31pm |
re: #506 buzzsawmonkey
Just hand over all your lupins, and every thing will be fine.
I'm too far behind.
| 650 |
Dr. Gene Squat Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:29:30pm |
re: #643 wahabicorridor
Jim Messina, White House Deputy Chief of Staff said it. All of those criticisms regarding "Obama didn't say it" seem like cheap semantics unless Jim Messina somehow *doesn't* represent President Obama's interests...
| 651 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:29:59pm |
I shudder to think what criminal charges the Justice Deparment of the next POTUS will bring against this administration. Oh, that's right. It'll be the GOP and they won't do it.
| 652 |
Windhorse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:30:16pm |
The Obama Administration... The Administration of two bit punks.
| 653 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:30:37pm |
re: #640 Ojoe
Do they have any idea of the contempt in which they are held by the ordinary citizen such as myself?
Some do and care, some do and don't care. Pelosi is one who does and doesn't care. Minnick is one who knows and cares very much.
And I use the term 'care' very ambiguously. Depending on the member it can mean 'oh, jeez, can I get reelected?" and for others it means "We're really fucking this up how do we fix it?"
A lot of members are not well served by their staff in situations like this. If you think members have big egos, try the staff. The staff don't get to go on the Sunday talk shows and their trophies are comparatively petty, therefore the turf wars are bloodier. The VERY first thing a staffer new to the Hill is told "Don't embarass the boss. The boss must always win".
I had a senate staffer from one office call a lobbying group and ask them to not support a bill by the other senator from the same state because he didn't want the other senator to get credit on an issue his boss should have been on top of but wasn't because this staffer fucked up.
It's all shit and giggles here in the swamp.
| 654 |
redstateredneck Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:30:49pm |
"This is the moment our movement was built for."
| 655 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:31:18pm |
| 656 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:31:48pm |
Is blaming SEIU for every dust-up going to become the equivalent of the Arab world blaming everything on Mossad? It sure seems to be a popular object of speculation.
| 657 |
Charpete67 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:32:55pm |
re: #656 negativ
Is blaming SEIU for every dust-up going to become the equivalent of the Arab world blaming everything on Mossad? It sure seems to be a popular object of speculation.
...I think their t-shirts give them away...
| 658 |
voirdire Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:33:40pm |
| 659 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:33:49pm |
re: #650 Dr. Gene Squat
Jim Messina, White House Deputy Chief of Staff said it. All of those criticisms regarding "Obama didn't say it" seem like cheap semantics unless Jim Messina somehow *doesn't* represent President Obama's interests...
It does seem like cheap semantics except for one thing. When you're trying to argue a point, it helps to have your facts straight. Otherwise, your opponent can dismiss the argument without having to defend his own position.
| 660 |
Windhorse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:33:57pm |
re: #656 negativ
who said they were to blame for "every dust-up". That they are responsible for any is a cause for concern.
| 662 |
Charpete67 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:36:57pm |
re: #656 negativ
Is blaming SEIU for every dust-up going to become the equivalent of the Arab world blaming everything on Mossad? It sure seems to be a popular object of speculation.
I had to read your post again...are you kidding?
The only reason the SIEU is being blamed is because there are big guys with bright blue t-shirts that say "SIEU" beating the crap out of a black conservative...other than that...I guess not.
| 663 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:40:23pm |
re: #648 ladycatnip
The WH is obviously not reigning in their own people, or Pelosi would've been smacked for what she said. Their rhetoric and refusal to listen to the American people is absolutely fueling this. Sending in SEIU or ACORN is also an invitation to physical violence.
The WH could shut this down in a NY minute - simply by reassuring the American people they WILL listen
Ok, overall I agree. The WH has no intention of changing direction. Slamming it thru is a tactic that has so far worked and they're not going to abandon it anytime soon. And I disagree with people who think that Obama has simply abdicated all the legislation to Congress. Pelosi is Faust to his Mephistopheles. And apparently, she HAS been told to dial it back. On the overnite, people from Denver were talking about an interview she gave to a local paper where she was characterizing the whole brouhaha as 'the democratic process'.
| 664 |
debutaunt Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:46:48pm |
re: #617 kansas
“If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard,” Messina said, according to an official who attended the meeting.
Don't see much rhetorical about that. How about, learn the bill, fight back with facts? Sorry, too complex for anyone to actually understand.
It takes a thug to organize a country.
| 665 |
Formercorpsman Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:47:40pm |
I watched some video.
From what I can gather, on the one video, it does appear that the people are yelling in order to disrupt the meeting.
I can't say that I agree with this tactic. Unlike some folks, I won't put them equal to the left's version of protesters who throw fake blood on parishioners, intimidate restaurant owners because they decided to get behind legislation, or antiwar folks who possess a litany of distasteful tactics that could fill a book, let alone shitting on a flag in public.
The main problem in all of this, is there is no way you will get a bipartisan approach from the top brass of the Democrats who are in control now. It jut won't happen. It is their way or the highway. They told their own, more centrist members of their party to STFU&STFD when it came to their concerns over this bill by their constituents.
Like I said before, this legislation is not about naming an airport, or funding a park. It will be the largest expenditure of tax dollars ever. With everyone footing the bill, and then having to be on the business end of what politicians decide is a difficult position to accept.
My impression of Obama, is that he is a snake. He has been lifelong friends with snakes. He recalls fondly, in his writings, of people who were snakes. I don't trust him one bit. I don't think they grasp the concept of what our Representative Republic really is.
When asked if he thought health care was a right, he said it was. I could be totally wrong, but when did this happen? Why have two houses to decide these issues, if he can declare such by edict?
Moreover, both sides have skin in this game.
All in all, if anyone thinks the folks pushing this legislation have their best interests at heart, you are fooling yourself.
| 666 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:51:46pm |
re: #664 debutaunt
It takes a thug to organize a country.
And the last time that happened, King George got his ass kicked from here to kingdom come.
| 667 |
GGMac Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:55:17pm |
re: #607 GGMac
IIRC that is the new name of ACORN; changed in the hope people won't realize who they are - a feeble 'facelift': New shirts, same people, same tactics. Chicago thuggery personified.
I recalled incorrectly - "Organizing for America" isn't ACORN; it's a political group that runs the DNC - to mobilize Obama supporters/support his agenda; formed after inauguration Jan. '09. (Wiki)
ACORN's new moniker is "Community Organizations International" -
[Link: www.newsmax.com...]
I apologize for any confusion.
| 668 |
wahabicorridor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:57:46pm |
And now I must depart. Have a good one lizards!
| 669 |
rightymouse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:58:28pm |
re: #642 Charpete67
yep...still wondering where Jackson, Sharpton and Obama are on the black conservative being beat up by the white SIEU thugs. I scanned the thread and saw it was touched on, but I haven't heard any reaction from them.
Ah...the hypocrisy of the left when it comes to racial politics. They are not so consistent in their 'outrage'.
| 671 |
bulwrk Fri, Aug 7, 2009 2:00:24pm |
The history of the labor movement and unions in this country is a fairly violent one.So when they hear push back twice as hard I'm sure the first thing that pops into their heads isn't writing a letter to their congressmen.
| 672 |
doubter4444 Fri, Aug 7, 2009 2:26:15pm |
| 673 |
FranSeaLou Fri, Aug 7, 2009 2:38:32pm |
re: #483 bush's babe
Ok. So you want us to shut-up? What has that gotten us? All our freedoms going out the window. Sorry, not this time.
What freedoms? Care to elaborate?
| 674 |
golf and ski Fri, Aug 7, 2009 3:05:51pm |
What happened to "dissent is the highest form of patriotism"??
| 675 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 3:27:18pm |
re: #198 Charles
Yesterday Limbaugh compared Obama and the Democratic Party to Hitler and the Nazi Party.
According to what Limbaugh said, Israel has Nazi Healthcare. And I guess it practices Jewish capitalism.
| 676 |
mystry Fri, Aug 7, 2009 3:33:49pm |
I am a senior. 68 years old. I just retired Dec 30, 2008. I am now on Medicare/Medicaid. Do not mess with my health case. Seniors are now awakened to their being a mere percentage of dollars on National Health Care. The AARP is not now on my side anymore. The Dem's did not factor in the seniors backlash.
| 677 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 3:45:38pm |
re: #676 mystry
If you are a right winger you should be opposed to Medicare because it's socialism. The fear is the Dems would broaden it for the working poor for a fee. The horror.
| 678 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:07:30pm |
re: #677 trendsurfer
If you are a right winger you should be opposed to Medicare because it's socialism. The fear is the Dems would broaden it for the working poor for a fee. The horror.
Are you going to give this person all of the money that's been taken out of his/her paycheck unvoluntarily and with interest? Who knows, maybe he/she would take you up on your offer.
| 679 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:15:27pm |
re: #678 Pianobuff
Why would I? I support Medicare. Medicare gave my mother the best care should could possibly have up until her heart gave out. She was lucky though. My father died active duty military so she had great and free supplemental insurance through Tricare.
| 680 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:15:35pm |
re: #677 trendsurfer
If you are a right winger you should be opposed to Medicare because it's socialism. The fear is the Dems would broaden it for the working poor for a fee. The horror.
And it would run private health care out of business because the government can bleed billions, private industry can't.
I don't like medicare or SS. If the fed paid me back every penny plus interest they have taken from me involuntarily over the last 30 years, I'd be more than happy to be done with it. Forcing me to pay and then giving me a crappy return is the leftist way.
| 681 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:16:26pm |
re: #679 trendsurfer
My father died active duty military so she had great and free supplemental insurance through Tricare.
Free?
| 682 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:25:18pm |
re: #680 Wendya
The private insurance industry can pound sand for all I care. The only reason Medicare exists is because the insurance industry pushed the unprofitable elderly onto the government so as to leave the young and most profitable available for them to cherry pick. The whole industry is a sham. The same with property insurance. The scales fell from my eyes when State Farm decided to drop my homeowners policy after paying into it for over 20 years. I never made a claim.
| 683 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:26:09pm |
re: #681 Wendya
Most of the elderly have to pay for a supplemental insurance policy. My mother didn't have to.
| 684 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:26:17pm |
re: #679 trendsurfer
Why would I? I support Medicare. Medicare gave my mother the best care should could possibly have up until her heart gave out. She was lucky though. My father died active duty military so she had great and free supplemental insurance through Tricare.
Well, someone who is 68 would have had their paycheck reduced for many years to fund Medicare. If you are saying that a 68 year-old right winger (still don't know if this applies to the previous poster or not) should forego Medicare, shouldn't he/she get the money back that he/she put into it along with interest if it was taken without him/her having anything to say about it? That's fair, right? Or are you suggesting that conservatives should support programs that take their money and give them to someone else, but not support getting some sort of return on investment?
There's really no need to respond. From your last statement, you believe that insurance is free so I don't really expect you to understand my comments.
| 685 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:32:59pm |
It's amusing that the Administration, Pelosi, Reid and their goons are complaining about organized protests, for obvious reasons. I'm sure everyone remembers all the leftist protests with the union signs, the international answer signs, etc... Now they've enlisted a well funded left wing astroturf organization with a K street address to provide a "grassroots" response on how to deal with protests and how to organize town hall meetings that do not include dissenters:
[Link: www.talkingpointsmemo.com...]
| 686 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:33:40pm |
re: #682 trendsurfer
The private insurance industry can pound sand for all I care. The only reason Medicare exists is because the insurance industry pushed the unprofitable elderly onto the government so as to leave the young and most profitable available for them to cherry pick. The whole industry is a sham. The same with property insurance. The scales fell from my eyes when State Farm decided to drop my homeowners policy after paying into it for over 20 years. I never made a claim.
No offense, but you seem to live in an alternate universe.
| 687 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:33:41pm |
re: #684 Pianobuff
Maybe you haven't been paying attention to all the ruckus that's been going on over Obama's healthcare proposals? All the RW pundits have been calling it socialism. And screaming about tyranny and how the government is going to euthanize the elderly. Well Medicare is a socialist government program. It works pretty damn well. But according to popular conservative opinion it doesn't. Yes, it needs more money. But the private insurance industry is fighting tooth and nail to prevent the government from taking any of their healthy policy holders away for a single payer system. Private insurance wants to keep their gravy train running.
| 688 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:34:41pm |
re: #683 trendsurfer
Most of the elderly have to pay for a supplemental insurance policy. My mother didn't have to.
It was free for her but everyone else had to pay for it. Of course when you're on the receiving end of "loot" and never the paying end, it must look pretty damned attractive.
| 690 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:37:35pm |
re: #686 Wendya
The scales fell from my eyes. So yes, I guess I do live in an alternative reality than your own. ;)
| 691 |
Ian MacGregor Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:38:47pm |
There are a couple of issues here. One is , "Does free speech include the right to shout down government officials? This not whether its right or wrong according to the rules of civil debate, but whether doing, so like shouting. "'Fire'" in a theater is not protected speech.
My own opinion is that shouting down an official is protected speech, but is wrong to do.
Next is the thuggery. Even if those who came to the meeting were not interested in dialogue, assault and battery is assault and battery. One cannot use someone's rudeness to justify a physical attack.
| 692 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:40:07pm |
re: #689 LC LaWedgieYes he did. But as I said above, most of the elderly have to pay for a supplemental insurance policy. My mother didn't have to.
| 693 |
Pianobuff Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:40:24pm |
re: #687 trendsurfer
Maybe you haven't been paying attention to all the ruckus that's been going on over Obama's healthcare proposals? All the RW pundits have been calling it socialism. And screaming about tyranny and how the government is going to euthanize the elderly. Well Medicare is a socialist government program. It works pretty damn well. But according to popular conservative opinion it doesn't. Yes, it needs more money. But the private insurance industry is fighting tooth and nail to prevent the government from taking any of their healthy policy holders away for a single payer system. Private insurance wants to keep their gravy train running.
What on God's Green Earth does that have to do with telling a 68 year old that has been putting money involuntarily into Medicare his/her whole life that he/she should not get any return if he/she wants to remain authentically "right wing".
Let's finish that conversation first.
| 694 |
ladycatnip Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:41:40pm |
#677 trendsurfer
If you are a right winger you should be opposed to Medicare because it's socialism. The fear is the Dems would broaden it for the working poor for a fee. The horror.
Where have you been in this debate? Are you completely ignorant of our own Medicare fraud? Or the horror stories out of England or Canada? Can you come up with a good reason Canadians cross our borders for health care other than because theirs is piss poor?
Medicare is rife with corruption. When Obama fixes THAT, then maybe I'll listen to his socialist ideas on how he wants to control MY health care. In the meantime, you're welcome to give a committee oversight over yours.
| 695 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:46:15pm |
re: #693 Pianobuff
Usually when someone makes a sarcastic or facetious comment they just end it with a '/'.
Consider yourself lucky I stated more.
| 696 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:50:26pm |
re: #694 ladycatnip
There are horror stories with out system too. And yet England's and Canadian healthcare is rated higher than ours in the world. And I have yet to hear anyone propose adopting either of those systems for our healthcare. Except maybe from a RW pundit.
| 697 |
ladycatnip Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:54:22pm |
#696 trendsurfer
Links please.
The good stories out of socialized medicine are the ones who didn't need it or waiting wasn't a problem. Talk to the people who are suffering in excruciating pain while they wait 9 months to see a doctor. Or the people who die waiting for a heart transplant. Or the people who are told they're too old for a transplant. You want those decisions made for you? I don't.
| 698 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:55:47pm |
re: #694 ladycatnip
Where have you been in this debate? Are you completely ignorant of our own Medicare fraud?
BTW, the greatest defrauder of government is on your side.
| 699 |
ladycatnip Fri, Aug 7, 2009 4:56:03pm |
trendsurfer,
Don't come on this blog and start marginalizing those of us who are against this ridiculous scam. Last time I looked, those town hall meetings were full of DEMOCRATS who were enraged because their elected representatives wouldn't listen to them.
| 700 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 5:06:41pm |
re: #697 ladycatnip
Here's a recording of an NPR broadcast about a hearing on capital hill on rescission. After you listen to that read how the numbers for rescission don't tell the whole story.
| 702 |
ladycatnip Fri, Aug 7, 2009 5:18:09pm |
Canadians don't think much of the Won's health care program either.
The only cognitive dissonance is coming from the democrats' heads exploding over opposition to their agenda. Love it.
It's all about freedom of choice, freedom of speech. The U.S. has the best health care in the world. We have cutting edge technology and medical research. In socialized medicine you have rationed care.
| 703 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 5:20:14pm |
re: #702 ladycatnip
Our system already rations care. The working poor don't get any.
| 704 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 5:24:04pm |
Here's more on our current system of rationing:
STAN BROCK BRINGS HEALTH CARE TO AMERICANS WITH REMOTE AREA MEDICAL PROGRAM from R2 Studios on Vimeo.
| 705 |
ladycatnip Fri, Aug 7, 2009 5:27:28pm |
trendsurfer -
That's a flat-out LIE and a complete leftist talking point. The poor fill our emergency rooms, urgent care rooms and health clinics on a daily 24/7 basis and get their health care FREE. When we were younger (20+ years ago) and without insurance for our small children, I waited in a public clinic for a couple of hours in order to get free vaccines for my three kids. We were the only Caucasions there, but it worked for us during that tough period in our lives.
Our system does NOT ration care. No one is turned away. Some private medical offices do not take certain insurances or Medicare. Some do. It's there for everybody including non-citizens.
| 706 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 5:31:39pm |
re: #705 ladycatnip
Excuse me. But people ration their own care due to cost. The just don't go to the doctor. Watch the Stan Brock video. Open your eyes.
| 707 |
ladycatnip Fri, Aug 7, 2009 5:47:01pm |
You're being deceptive. Rationing my own health care is distinctly different than a government panel telling me I'm too old for this procedure or that drug is too expensive. I ration the way I eat too, because I can't afford filet mignon or lobster tails. People ration the clothes in their closet - not everyone can afford to buy designer labels so there's Target or WalMart. We all can't afford to live in 4,000sq.ft homes so we buy smaller homes. That's rationing to you? It's called being responsible and wise with our own money.
We have county hospitals for those who can't afford to go to a private hospital. If someone needs an appendectomy there are hospitals that take Medicaid or Medicare.
Stop the obfuscation.
Here's yet another reason to distrust this health care debate - there isn't any!
Time to go eat my dinner rations. We're having chicken tonight.
| 708 |
theuglydougling Fri, Aug 7, 2009 6:27:00pm |
"Punch back twice as hard"
If Beck or Rush said this, it wouldn't matter whether there was actual context. A good chunk of this community would be crapping itself with rage.
I can't believe how many comments I've seen in this thread that seem to be excusing the violent behavior of those who don't like their precious Democrats being challenged. He got punched by a union thug? Well, he had it coming when he dared to make eye contact with his betters, or worse, speak to them. Who do these people think they are, exercising their rights under the First Amendment?
Sure, let's wait for both sides of the story so we can find fault with the victim of an assault. He must have said or done something politically inflammatory, such as handing out flags, and that makes violence okay.//
| 709 |
Capitalistincharge Fri, Aug 7, 2009 6:39:24pm |
I understand very well the anger of Americans and it will progressively get more ugly. We feel as though no matter how many letters we send or how many calls to our representatives, we are being ignored. The voices are only get louder and angrier as long as our President gives speeches, like he did in Virginia, and dares speak against and ridicule a majority of Americans. (He doesn't want us to talk about it cause we caused it and now he's got to clean up after us). I have never, in my 50+ years, heard a President talk about his fellow Americans in such insulting, dismissive ways. Never. All past Presidents governed over all Americans not just those who agreed with his ideology. I don't recall ever feeling so marginalized. And I am insulted and angry.
People are taking it to the Town Halls and the Reps aren't listening and appreciating the constituent's concerns. We are watching our Government try intimidation on dissenters and suddenly I remember Iran, just recently, and think that can't happen here can it? Americans are witnessing things our Government is doing and realize more each day that they are fighting to keep our freedom. The unprecedented power grab by this administration is now pissing off most Americans. Congress and Obama continued to deny Americans concerns and now blame and smear to try to intimidate us into inaction. Our President just does not get what America and it's people are all about. And I am pissed.
| 710 |
DANEgerus Fri, Aug 7, 2009 7:02:21pm |
All of the Obama videos, and Obama-bot videos, where they brag that Healthcare "reform" is a trojan horse for a "single-payer" takeover but we are all supposed to let them get away with the lies unchallenged?
Well here is a direct quote from Dear Leader:
"I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face.And if they tell you that, ‘Well, we’re not sure where he stands on guns.’ I want you to say, ‘He believes in the Second Amendment.’ If they tell you, ‘Well, he’s going to raise your taxes,’ you say, ‘No, he’s not, he’s going lower them.’ You are my ambassadors. You guys are the ones who can make the case."
Clearly Dear Leader has demonstrated he is against gun rights and does not believe in the Second Amendment. Clearly Dear Leader has demonstrated he is raising our taxes explicitly and implicitly through unimaginable spending increases, that someone will have to pay for, and "Cap & Trade" that will target the lower income hardest. So just as clearly Dear Leader is advocating you "argue with them and get in their face" to advance lies.
So now the "Community Organizer" has a problem with Community's being organized so he publishes marching orders to the thugs of the SEIU and ACORN and predictably violence breaks out but it's all the fault of the (R)epublicans... of course.
Ignore the videos popping up on Youtube. Again... just like the videos documenting the lies of Dear Leader about Healthcare you are not to believe your own lying eyes.
Don't expect any acts of violence by the SEIU/ACORN to be prosecuted either. The catch&release of the New Black Panther thugs illustrated quite clearly you cannot be guilty of a crime in America if you are on the correct side of the aisle.
| 711 |
ladycatnip Fri, Aug 7, 2009 7:08:32pm |
I challenge Obama to put himself and his family under this 1,000-page rationed-care program that no representatives have read yet. I challenge Pelosi and all members of Congress to be subject to this massive health care scam. I demand that all federal employees and union employees be under the exact same socialistic health care they want to subject us to.
Except, under this bill, Congress, federal employees and union employees will all have their Cadillac medical coverage while we're rationed.
| 712 |
DANEgerus Fri, Aug 7, 2009 7:12:30pm |
Did Obama not say this?
'I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess'...
So what is the purpose of the Townhalls except to serve as more posing for Dear Leader? Are none allowed to be frustrated by the dog & pony show?
After 8 years of the Left waving swastikas now those who dissent from Dear Leader have to endure being compared to Nazis?
"I think they’re Astroturf… You be the judge. "They’re carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on healthcare." -- Nancy Pelosi(D)
And yet again the Whitehouse has setup an official program to chill free speech by inviting informants to report "fishy" behavior? Should be we grateful this is on the tax-payer's dime instead of George Soros?
When is the next DHS report due on the dangerous right wing?
| 713 |
DANEgerus Fri, Aug 7, 2009 7:21:04pm |
Rick Moran : Obama looses labor thugs on tea party town hall protestors
The pushback by Democrats against conservative activists who have been flooding health care town halls across the country is starting to get ugly. Organized labor has now entered the fray, promising to counter conservatives at the events.Sure enough, labor thugs savagely beat a conservative activist after a town hall meeting put on by Missouri's Russ Carnahan.
...
These have been the tactics of organized labor for 100 years. And given that the White House has ordered Dems to hit back "twice as hard," it doesn't take much to connect the events in St, Louis (and Tampa where more violence broke out) with what is going on at these meetings...
...
The administration couldn't make it any clearer if they drew a map.Barack Obama is personally responsible for any violence that breaks out at these meetings. If he wasn't president and suggested that Democrats hit back "twice as hard," he would be held legally responsible for the violence that broke out in St, Louis and Tampa. But this is politics - the way the Democrats play it.
It couldn't be any clearer that the goal of the labor thugs is to intimidate people from coming to these town hall meetings unless they are supporters of the president. Obama's labor brown shirts will continue these tactics unless the president himself calls them off.
| 714 |
mosse Fri, Aug 7, 2009 8:36:17pm |
re: #9 buzzsawmonkey
I agree. For those of us from the "'60s generation" who allowed the "'60s Left" to conceptually metastasize, this is our fight. Obama and his close supporters are operatives and resistance to their agenda is our duty as citizens. Particularly for those of us who deceived ourselves that the Democratic Party represented a "soft, benign" Leftist approach, it is imperative that we help to clean up the REAL "mess", as the would-be Hypnotic Great Leader has phrased it. That effort is hardly "Jerry Springer" -- it is an attempt to rejuvenate responsible democratic participation, before it's too late.
| 715 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 8:45:15pm |
re: #709 Capitalistincharge
and dares speak against and ridicule a majority of Americans. (He doesn't want us to talk about it cause we caused it and now he's got to clean up after us). I have never, in my 50+ years, heard a President talk about his fellow Americans in such insulting, dismissive ways. Never.
Agree 100%.
I don't care if some random asshole can think of me as a "typical white person" but for a president to have said that is beyond the pale.
I simply cannot wait for his term to be over.
| 716 |
Ojoe Fri, Aug 7, 2009 8:46:59pm |
| 717 |
Brees Mon, Aug 10, 2009 9:54:43am |
From a lib's perspective...it is swastika clad thug protesters (Republican voters) bussed in to attack. It seems that there isn't that much coverage on registered Democrats that come to their Democrat sponsored "town hall meetings". Those that do, that speak out against...are discredited as loons, etc. I'm not saying that there aren't any Republican or Independent voters at these things, but there is a double standard from the media and the libs that show up/host. It's all good if it is during a Republican administration. Pies, Oreos, effigies, violence etc. That is a "peaceful" protest against "the Man" or whatever they want to call it. Now in this new era of click the reset button & it will all be good, hopenchange...one is now a domestic terrorist for disagreeing with President Obama. Too many libs fell for the dog & pony show, and are now speaking out their displeasure.
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