Code Pink leader Medea Benjamin highly approves of the right wing screamers disrupting health care town hall meetings.
This is exactly why I coined the term “moronic convergence.”
1 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:29:04pm |
She's so far to the left she's connecting up with the crazies on the right.
| 2 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:29:38pm |
Ask not for whom the bell tolls, for it tolls for any chance of a civil discourse.
| 4 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:31:21pm |
Rules for Radicals.
/all the kids are doing it.
| 5 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:31:45pm |
Truly, an endorsement of this sort is an special honor. The recipients should be proud.
/
| 7 |
VioletTiger Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:32:34pm |
re: #1 Racer X
She's so far to the left she's connecting up with the crazies on the right.
Teh Crazy is a circle, afterall.
| 8 |
pat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:33:04pm |
I must be missing something. I have seen Union thugs, left wing nuts, and racists attack older white and black Americans at these meetings. If the shrill voice of a 65 year old is a bit too much for the politicians, particularly the Dems, then maybe they can get a law passed that only Obama supporters and GOP Deconstructionists be allowed to speak.
| 9 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:37:45pm |
Just remember what Medea did to her own kids, and you've explained everything.
| 10 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:38:04pm |
On the news tonight they said the burned area is now larger than San Francisco and Las Vegas combined.
| 11 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:38:23pm |
On a similar note: The only reason that I can think of as acceptable for bringing weapons to a Town Hall meeting is if your town is organizing a defense against a real life zombie invasion.
Otherwise, you just look like a stupid crank. A stupid, dangerous crank.
| 12 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:38:57pm |
re: #11 Slumbering Behemoth
On a similar note: The only reason that I can think of as acceptable for bringing weapons to a Town Hall meeting is if your town is organizing a defense against a real life zombie invasion.
Otherwise, you just look like a stupid crank. A stupid, dangerous crank.
Only if I get to be the cute, spunky brunette who actually survives.
| 13 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:39:20pm |
re: #8 pat
I must be missing something. I have seen Union thugs, left wing nuts, and racists attack older white and black Americans at these meetings. If the shrill voice of a 65 year old is a bit too much for the politicians, particularly the Dems, then maybe they can get a law passed that only Obama supporters and GOP Deconstructionists be allowed to speak.
You certainly are missing something, such as the last thread.
Here is Rep Gingrey, (R-GA) defending bringing guns to townhalls.
[Link: tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com...]
Someone certainly is interested in suppressing speech. In my book it's these people.
| 14 |
srb1976 Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:41:06pm |
re: #11 Slumbering Behemoth
On a similar note: The only reason that I can think of as acceptable for bringing weapons to a Town Hall meeting is if your town is organizing a defense against a real life zombie invasion.
Otherwise, you just look like a stupid crank. A stupid, dangerous crank.
Zombie invasion...nice = )
| 15 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:41:10pm |
Ah, yes, "union thugs". Socialists, no doubt.
Buchanan, is that you?
| 16 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:41:46pm |
re: #8 pat
I must be missing something. I have seen Union thugs, left wing nuts, and racists attack older white and black Americans at these meetings. If the shrill voice of a 65 year old is a bit too much for the politicians, particularly the Dems, then maybe they can get a law passed that only Obama supporters and GOP Deconstructionists be allowed to speak.
What I'm not getting is this: do you think you're going to make these people disappear by pretending they don't exist?
| 17 |
keithgabryelski Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:42:37pm |
gah -- just more evidence code pink are fools with no sane leadership.
| 18 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:44:11pm |
re: #12 EmmmieG
Only if I get to be the cute, spunky brunette who actually survives.
Come to my Zombie Defense Town Hall. Cute, spunky brunettes get top priority. And the best weapons.
/how do you look holding a chainsaw?
| 19 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:44:29pm |
1. Bringing weapons of any kind to a town hall is incredibly stupid.
2. Being a disruptive belligerent jerk at a town hall is also incredibly stupid.
We should all be able to make our voices heard without being assholes. We live in a Republic - contact your representative and let them know how you feel.
| 20 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:44:59pm |
re: #19 Racer X
1. Bringing weapons of any kind to a town hall is incredibly stupid.
2. Being a disruptive belligerent jerk at a town hall is also incredibly stupid.We should all be able to make our voices heard without being assholes. We live in a Republic - contact your representative and let them know how you feel.
Upding. Totally agree. Wellsaid.
| 21 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:45:00pm |
re: #18 Slumbering Behemoth
Come to my Zombie Defense Town Hall. Cute, spunky brunettes get top priority. And the best weapons.
/how do you look holding a chainsaw?
I don't know. Can I have a shotgun? I have some experience with those.
| 22 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:46:19pm |
re: #14 srb1976
Zombie invasion...nice = )
I have a four track mind:
-Food
-Women
-Beer
-Zombies
In that order.
/
| 23 |
keithgabryelski Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:47:02pm |
I'm going to the local townhall on wednesday. Any votes for which question I should ask:
[Link: sites.google.com...]
| 24 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:47:17pm |
re: #22 Slumbering Behemoth
I have a four track mind:
-Food
-Women
-Beer
-ZombiesIn that order.
/
Well, there is a new book out...Pride and Prejudice with Zombies.
Women and zombies.
*ducks*
| 25 |
lazardo Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:47:52pm |
re: #22 Slumbering Behemoth
I have a four track mind:
-Food
-Women
-Beer
-ZombiesIn that order.
/
In bed.
| 26 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:49:41pm |
"OK, well, the hooker thing was definitely a lie".
| 27 |
sngnsgt Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:50:11pm |
OT
I'm in N Las Vegas and was just outside looking at the moon in the smoke hazed sky. The smoke then became so thick, the moon disappeared before my eyes, makes me scared to think what it's like there on the ground. Prayers to everyone out there on the left coast.
| 28 |
srb1976 Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:51:16pm |
| 29 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:51:28pm |
re: #21 EmmmieG
I don't know. Can I have a shotgun? I have some experience with those.
You just got promoted. Pending review, you just might get one of these.
| 30 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:52:46pm |
| 31 |
pat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:53:25pm |
re: #13 iceweasel
Your silly citation failed to cite anything that supported your case that pundits were encouraging armed attendance at Town Hall meetings. Rather you referred me to a politician that stupidly argued it was legal. So did the Black Panthers. And they were likewise correct. At the time.
I specifically asked about "pundits". I took the word to mean major political commentators such as George Will, Michael Barone, Limbaugh, Ingrahm, Medved, or Hewitt. Instead you deflected.
our country is now in the hands of a politician who was a member of a far left Socialist Party in Illinois, who was the attorney of a far left group that has renamed itself because of legal indictments, who organized disruptive and near violent protests of banks and the Chicago City Council. Who not only read leftists literature, but had the terrorists/author as his baby sitter. And who attended a hate-filled racist church that believed in every lefyist crack pot theory ever imagined.
You are trite . Nothing more.
| 32 |
TheMatrix31 Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:55:38pm |
Fuck the Dodgers. Picking up a future hall of famer for someone to be named later, someone who probably isn't qualified to scrub the fucking toilet at a local down-n-dirty taco stand.
| 33 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:55:50pm |
Hello, all. As it happens, I did not get to my congresscritter's town hall today. Multiple road closures due to accidents and construction forced me to take a taxi to work. The resulting expenditure meant that I did not have the funds needed for a taxi from the meeting.
| 35 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:56:49pm |
re: #31 pat
Your silly citation failed to cite anything that supported your case that pundits were encouraging armed attendance at Town Hall meetings. Rather you referred me to a politician that stupidly argued it was legal. So did the Black Panthers. And they were likewise correct. At the time.
I specifically asked about "pundits". I took the word to mean major political commentators such as George Will, Michael Barone, Limbaugh, Ingrahm, Medved, or Hewitt. Instead you deflected.
our country is now in the hands of a politician who was a member of a far left Socialist Party in Illinois, who was the attorney of a far left group that has renamed itself because of legal indictments, who organized disruptive and near violent protests of banks and the Chicago City Council. Who not only read leftists literature, but had the terrorists/author as his baby sitter. And who attended a hate-filled racist church that believed in every lefyist crack pot theory ever imagined.
You are trite . Nothing more.
Your points are correct, but I'd ask you to make them in a less hostile fashion.
| 36 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:59:02pm |
So really, how much cache does a Medea Benjamin endorsement bring?
I'd say that you're in pretty bad shape when that happens.
| 37 |
pat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 9:59:16pm |
re: #35 Dark_Falcon
They are stated with the hostility nI have received. Since i do not intend to debate the Weasle, it is unlikely to be an issue in the future.
| 38 |
swamprat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:00:14pm |
Why stop at guns?
Chainsaws.
Whips.
Machetes.
Suicide vests.
Skunks.
Sabers.
Both kinds of Claymores.
Garrotes.
Pipe.
Pictures of Janet Reno.(..not approved by the Geneva Convention)
Blowguns.
Nun Chucks.
Joisting Lances.
Cannon.
Or show up with a large, obviously fake gun, wearing a propeller beany, large red shoes, polka dot pants, and a shirt that says "another voter for ronpaul! ".
| 39 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:01:39pm |
re: #33 Dark_Falcon
Hello, all. As it happens, I did not get to my congresscritter's town hall today. Multiple road closures due to accidents and construction forced me to take a taxi to work. The resulting expenditure meant that I did not have the funds needed for a taxi from the meeting.
You do realize that all of this was orchestrated by our (temporarily) socialist gov't to prevent you, specifically you, from attending the meeting, right?
/
| 40 |
realwest Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:01:46pm |
re: #38 swamprat
Who are the "Joisting Lances"? Are they sorta like the Flying Wallendas, only more aggressive?!
:)
| 41 |
SummerSong Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:02:05pm |
"Click the accompanying video for Benjamin's full take."
No. Thanks.
| 42 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:02:26pm |
re: #31 pat
Actually you're the one guilty of both deflection and denial. I have provided evidence that elected members of the GOP are encouraging this insanity. Now you say you want proof that pundits have as well. Why is that? Are you admitting that Limbaugh is the defacto leader of the party?
In any case, it would be very easy to find you citations about pundits encouraging such crap. Why should I do your research for you?
The really interesting question here is the one Charles asked you and you are still avoiding answering: Do you think pretending this isn't happening will make it go away? Do you think it makes sense to call the sensible wing of the GOP, and independents, "GOP Deconstructionists"-- because they call out the crazy when they see it?
And are you really descending into claiming that Obama "belonged to a far left Socialist party"? And you're going to claim I'm the one guilty of crackpot theories, denial and deflection?
Your post is nothing but denial and deflection.
So, video evidence of a GOP Congressman endorsing bringing weapons to a town hall is a "silly citation", I'm the one who's engaging in denial and deflection, and I'm the believer in conspiracy theories.
Someone forgot to tell me it was Opposite Day.
| 43 |
bloodnok Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:03:19pm |
re: #31 pat
Your silly citation failed to cite anything that supported your case that pundits were encouraging armed attendance at Town Hall meetings. Rather you referred me to a politician that stupidly argued it was legal. So did the Black Panthers. And they were likewise correct. At the time.
I specifically asked about "pundits". I took the word to mean major political commentators such as George Will, Michael Barone, Limbaugh, Ingrahm, Medved, or Hewitt. Instead you deflected.
our country is now in the hands of a politician who was a member of a far left Socialist Party in Illinois, who was the attorney of a far left group that has renamed itself because of legal indictments, who organized disruptive and near violent protests of banks and the Chicago City Council. Who not only read leftists literature, but had the terrorists/author as his baby sitter. And who attended a hate-filled racist church that believed in every lefyist crack pot theory ever imagined.
You are trite . Nothing more.
Funny, if people provide links to pundits encouraging this they are usually met with "Oh, but they're just pundits and entertainers and have no real power. Show me a politician supporting this".
I think you were the one deflecting here. Here we have a sitting congressman encouraging this. Saying it's just fine and dandy. And you are worried about what pundits say?
We know Obama's history, or what you choose to pick out from it. Is that supposed to justify bringing guns to where he is appearing? Is that what you are saying? His history makes this okay?
| 44 |
lazardo Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:03:39pm |
re: #39 Slumbering Behemoth
You do realize that all of this was orchestrated by our (temporarily) socialist gov't to prevent you, specifically you, from attending the meeting, right?
/
INSAHD JAWB!
/
| 46 |
Bob Dillon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:05:22pm |
re: #16 Charles
What I'm not getting is this: do you think you're going to make these people disappear by pretending they don't exist?
I have come across Ms. Benjamin multiple times counter protesting her and others. Ayers gig at St. Marys - Berkeley Marines - etc.
One thing is for sure ... she and her ilk, Ayers, etc. are professionals at what they do. I as an amateur do not have the time or resources to effectively counter her other than my presence.
She, Ayers, etc. are not going away.
They have found their niche and are exploiting it to the max.
| 47 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:05:30pm |
re: #17 keithgabryelski
gah -- just more evidence code pink are fools with no sane leadership.
You needed more proof?
| 48 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:06:15pm |
re: #19 Racer X
1. Bringing weapons of any kind to a town hall is incredibly stupid.
2. Being a disruptive belligerent jerk at a town hall is also incredibly stupid.We should all be able to make our voices heard without being assholes. We live in a Republic - contact your representative and let them know how you feel.
But that's BORING! And my side might LOSE if we VOTED!
///
| 49 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:06:55pm |
re: #21 EmmmieG
I don't know. Can I have a shotgun? I have some experience with those.
Shotguns are good for zombies. If you can explode the head, they fall over. Usually.
| 50 |
swamprat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:07:06pm |
re: #40 realwest
Who are the "Joisting Lances"? Are they sorta like the Flying Wallendas, only more aggressive?!
:)
Also tilting and listing.
| 51 |
realwest Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:07:38pm |
re: #48 SanFranciscoZionist
But that's BORING! And my side might LOSE if we VOTED!
///
Hey SFZ! I certainly saw the sarcasm marks, but just out of idle curiousity, what side would yours be that might lose if we voted?
| 52 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:07:43pm |
re: #22 Slumbering Behemoth
I have a four track mind:
-Food
-Women
-Beer
-ZombiesIn that order.
/
My English students were so impressed to hear that my husband has a zombie plan.
| 53 |
Bob Dillon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:07:44pm |
re: #38 swamprat
Weren't ceremonial sabers banned at one function already?
| 55 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:08:36pm |
re: #39 Slumbering Behemoth
You do realize that all of this was orchestrated by our (temporarily) socialist gov't to prevent you, specifically you, from attending the meeting, right?
/
I did not realize that, Mr Jones. I suppose the new meds aren't working, are they?
//
| 56 |
swamprat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:08:43pm |
re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist
Shotguns are good for zombies. If you can explode the head, they fall over. Usually.
Unlike democrats, who just keep voting, even after they are dead.
| 57 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:09:03pm |
Hello, Lizards, just a drive by. I must get to sleep as our new fiscal year starts tomorrow and it's a Del Rio dogfight, but this harmonic convergence between the Barkers and the Pinkers has a somewhat lovely symmetry, doesn't it?
I would just note that the message is being delivered by the head Pinker, and in such a distributed organization she doesn't speak for the whole. In addition, the Pinkers have become more and more disillusioned by the Obama admin in the last six months. We still have troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan and this is not the future they envisioned. I'm on on for about 15 minutes, so please send whatever brickbats you deem appropriate.
| 58 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:10:00pm |
re: #51 realwest
Hey SFZ! I certainly saw the sarcasm marks, but just out of idle curiousity, what side would yours be that might lose if we voted?
Depends what we voted on. I'm a kind of boring centrist Democrat with ethnic neocon tendencies.
| 59 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:10:08pm |
re: #42 iceweasel
Actually you're the one guilty of both deflection and denial. I have provided evidence that elected members of the GOP are encouraging this insanity. Now you say you want proof that pundits have as well. Why is that? Are you admitting that Limbaugh is the defacto leader of the party?
In any case, it would be very easy to find you citations about pundits encouraging such crap. Why should I do your research for you?The really interesting question here is the one Charles asked you and you are still avoiding answering: Do you think pretending this isn't happening will make it go away? Do you think it makes sense to call the sensible wing of the GOP, and independents, "GOP Deconstructionists"-- because they call out the crazy when they see it?
And are you really descending into claiming that Obama "belonged to a far left Socialist party"? And you're going to claim I'm the one guilty of crackpot theories, denial and deflection?
Your post is nothing but denial and deflection.So, video evidence of a GOP Congressman endorsing bringing weapons to a town hall is a "silly citation", I'm the one who's engaging in denial and deflection, and I'm the believer in conspiracy theories.
Someone forgot to tell me it was Opposite Day.
The Republicans are encouraging people to "get in their faces" and to "hit back twice as hard".
There is no doubt the Republicans are happy about the turnout at these meetings. I think some are even happy to see the looney-toons that are showing up too. But, I would venture a guess that almost all of these people are there because they are mad as hell, not because they got marching orders from "on high" or an email from the shop stewart.
There is a ground swell going on in this country. It is picking quite a bit of flotsam and jetsam along the way, but those people are just along for the ride...they are not driving it. The Republican leadership is not running this...nobody is. It is getting ugly, but that's what happens when you try to mess with people the way Obama and his administration has.
| 60 |
realwest Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:10:11pm |
re: #56 swamprat
Unlike democrats, who just keep voting, even after they are dead.
Hey, ya know loyality is usually considered a valuable trait!
| 61 |
realwest Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:11:26pm |
re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist
Depends what we voted on. I'm a kind of boring centrist Democrat with ethnic neocon tendencies.
LOL! Thank you for the clarification!
| 62 |
swamprat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:11:43pm |
re: #53 Bobibutu
Weren't ceremonial sabers banned at one function already?
No idea, I think we should wear "I'm with stupid" shirts and shadow the gunnies. If anything is going to subvert the 2nd amendment, this could do it.
| 63 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:12:36pm |
re: #59 Desert Dog
No! You're wrong! Rush and Beck are behind this. They are using sekrit mind rays to control the rednecks, and make them go git violent and stuff.
| 65 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:13:13pm |
| 66 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:13:35pm |
re: #62 swamprat
No idea, I think we should wear "I'm with stupid" shirts and shadow the gunnies. If anything is going to subvert the 2nd amendment, this could do it.
t-shirts?
| 67 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:14:07pm |
re: #63 Racer X
No! You're wrong! Rush and Beck are behind this. They are using sekrit mind rays to control the rednecks, and make them go git violent and stuff.
Why can't they just use the mind rays to control Congress?
| 68 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:15:15pm |
re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist
Why can't they just use the mind rays to control Congress?
There are no minds to be found there...functioning ones, at least
| 69 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:15:21pm |
re: #59 Desert Dog
The Republicans are encouraging people to "get in their faces" and to "hit back twice as hard".
There is no doubt the Republicans are happy about the turnout at these meetings. I think some are even happy to see the looney-toons that are showing up too. But, I would venture a guess that almost all of these people are there because they are mad as hell, not because they got marching orders from "on high" or an email from the shop stewart.
There is a ground swell going on in this country. It is picking quite a bit of flotsam and jetsam along the way, but those people are just along for the ride...they are not driving it. The Republican leadership is not running this...nobody is. It is getting ugly, but that's what happens when you try to mess with people the way Obama and his administration has.
No. There is a generated groundswell by very powerful, special interest groups that have a put tremendous amounts of money to make it happen. This is not organic. It is manufactured.
| 72 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:17:34pm |
re: #69 austin_blue
No. There is a generated groundswell by very powerful, special interest groups that have a put tremendous amounts of money to make it happen. This is not organic. It is manufactured.
Wait, are you talking about Obama and Soros and ACORN? Or something else?
| 73 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:17:37pm |
Well, I have to go work on my zombie survival plan. (I plan on creating my own gremlins. I'll mix lots of sugar and DNA from certain Flying Monkeys I know).
I'll let you all know how it turns out.
| 74 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:17:51pm |
So, Medea endorses the kookservatives. What could her motives be...
-Despite being at odds with them, she endorses their disruptive methods because that is just how she would do it. She approves of the kooky methods while disagreeing with the message.
-She's attempting a head fake, in which the kookservatives see her approval, become appalled, and decide to quit.
-A double-head fake, where she knows that they would be appalled, knows that they know that she knows they would be appalled, and is trying to trick them into continuing there kookservativeness.
-A triple head fake, where she knows that they know that she knows that they know...
Wake up! There are wheels within wheels here! A grand conspiracy! We're through the smoking glass, people!
///
| 75 |
Syrah Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:18:11pm |
re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist
Why can't they just use the mind rays to control Congress?
Mind rays only work on those with a mind. They won't work on congress-critters.
| 76 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:18:59pm |
re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist
My English students were so impressed to hear that my husband has a zombie plan.
Who doesn't? I mean, really.
| 77 |
afootball Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:19:28pm |
re: #22 Slumbering Behemoth
I have a four track mind:
-Food
-Women
-Beer
-ZombiesIn that order.
/
I recommend moving zombies to the top of that list. They probably represent the immediate danger. But that depends on the women and beer involved ...
| 78 |
Edouard Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:19:36pm |
Here's what I don't get. How do those of us who are frustrated with the economic naif in the White House, and the spendaholics on Capitol Hill get our voices heard if being polite appears no longer to work?
We object to bazillion-dollar governmental boondoggle after another, and we are entirely ignored if we object politely.
There are millions of people in America who are not "crazies" but have had it up to here with the oligarchical, let-them-eat-cake attitudes that this administration and these federal lawmakers have taken.
To avoid being seen as crazies, are we supposed simply to be meek about the fiscal destruction, egregious for the past few years, that has really gone into high gear in the last year?
Where do we go? How do we organize? If we are fed up, well and truly fed up for legitimate, practical reasons and we're not "crazy"?
It's my contention that the anger you see out there has been building for many years -- ordinary Americans not being listened to for a long, long time, until government "health care" became the straw that broke the back.
A lot of people are pissed. Really pissed. Mainstream, non-crazy, ordinary Americans whose jaws are dropping at America's leadership vacuum and its mismanagement in Washington.
Is it wrong to be so frustrated? Am I a "crazy"? Look, I'm not any "Paulbot". Yet if I raise my voice when I go see my congressman, because he just isn't paying attention, am I, too, to be mocked anyway, even at LGF for being a lunatic -- merely for being frustrated as hell and demanding that our lawmakers change course dramatically and fast, lest they really screw the fiscal pooch for America for a generation to come?
| 79 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:19:50pm |
| 82 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:21:02pm |
re: #69 austin_blue
No. There is a generated groundswell by very powerful, special interest groups that have a put tremendous amounts of money to make it happen. This is not organic. It is manufactured.
Sometimes you are right, Blue. And, sometimes you are wrong. You really think this is being run by some special interest groups? Which ones? Please enlighten me. This it is not real? It's fake? How so? I think the response from the Democrats smacks of artificiality and "unorganic" matter. People are mad and scared. Closing your eyes and hoping they go away will not work on this one. You are going to be in a big surprise this next election. If Obama and Co. continue the path they are on, you will be seeing many, many newly unemployed Democratic Representatives and Senators.
| 83 |
Gearhead Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:21:33pm |
re: #1 Racer X
She's so far to the left she's connecting up with the crazies on the right.
Columbus: "The political spectrum, she's-a round, like-a my head!"
WHAM!
Ferdinand: "She is flat like your head."
/Looney Tunes
| 84 |
lazardo Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:21:44pm |
re: #78 Edouard
You're not the only one frustrated, that's for sure. But there's a distinct line between "proper" dissent in civil discourse and the craziness we've seen, and it's important to keep these boundaries in mind.
| 85 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:21:59pm |
re: #59 Desert Dog
I'd be delighted if an informed and engaged citizenry was showing up at these events asking thoughtful and intelligent questions. That would be ideal. I don't care what their ideology is.
But that isn't what's happening, in many cases. We have seniors on medicare showing up saying they don't want government health care. We have people saying they 'want their country back'. We have armed people showing up carrying signs about the tree of liberty and dropping weapons.
And I don't think that pretending it isn't happening, or denying that the GOP itself is now encouraging it (as well as disseminating lies about Death Panels, VA Death Book, and claiming that the Democrats are going to use voter registrations to deny care to Republicans) is going to make it go away.
Unless one's goal is to be the "Party of No" and one's philosophy is "What can we do to screw the Democrats today".
Some are fine with that. Me, I'd like to see a better opposition party and a calmer political climate, more conducive to discourse. I suspect you would too.
| 87 |
el polacko Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:22:17pm |
first cindy sheehan and now code pink ?! as much as it pains me, i have to give them props for, at least, being fairly consistent. haven't heard much from code pink about our continuing wars, but then sheehan's protest against obama at martha's vineyard was hardly mentioned by the media either. it's all about what's reported and what's not, isn't it ?
| 88 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:22:54pm |
re: #76 Slumbering Behemoth
Who doesn't? I mean, really.
My zombie plan would involve taking the shotgun to my head. There are some things that I would not want to survive.
| 89 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:23:08pm |
re: #69 austin_blue
No. There is a generated groundswell by very powerful, special interest groups that have a put tremendous amounts of money to make it happen. This is not organic. It is manufactured.
It's being funded by insurance companies themselves, for one. They're pouring money into fake 'grassroots' organisations like Freedomworks.
| 91 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:24:05pm |
re: #55 Dark_Falcon
I did not realize that, Mr Jones. I suppose the new meds aren't working, are they?
//
Meds? MEDS?! I bet you were vaccinated as well, you fool. Medications are the tool that the Pharma/Military/Illuminaughty Industrial Complex uses to control your thoughts and emotions!
Quit taking those drugs (why do you think they call it dope?), and use the only tried and true method to thwart thought oppression.
/
| 92 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:24:26pm |
I recently contacted my local state legislator to complain about how Ahnold was handling the budget. I was not very polite in my email. He told me to simmah down naw. He was working on it. And explained his strategy in a very polite email. I was like, OK then. Cool. He gets it.
(R)
| 93 |
swamprat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:24:32pm |
| 94 |
pink freud Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:24:56pm |
re: #78 Edouard
Mockery is a weapon of the bully; it allows them to assert their (pseudo) superiority by denigrating or humiliating another. It's become quite popular by those who oppose the idea of this legitimate grassroots movement against this atrocity of a health care bill.
| 95 |
tradewind Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:24:57pm |
I'm screaming myself, at the television that is showing 911... Conspiracy and Science...watching truthers bringing teh crazy when they say ' there were no planes' is driving me nuts when I know they are just driving knives into the hearts of people who lost loved ones in those very real aircraft. All the science in the world is not enough to convince these nutjobs.
National Geo will replay this tomorrow... if you haven't seen it, make sure to watch.
| 96 |
pat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:25:34pm |
re: #80 swamprat
I think that was where Swords were banned. Annapolis. BTW, I have one of those, heh, heh. Dull, but pointed. Not a weapon of practical choice. The last sword that the USA used that was a real weapon was the Civil War Cavalry.
| 97 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:25:44pm |
re: #87 el polacko
first cindy sheehan and now code pink ?! as much as it pains me, i have to give them props for, at least, being fairly consistent. haven't heard much from code pink about our continuing wars, but then sheehan's protest against obama at martha's vineyard was hardly mentioned by the media either. it's all about what's reported and what's not, isn't it ?
They're still plugging away.
| 98 |
tradewind Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:26:24pm |
re: #22 Slumbering Behemoth
If you have zombies on that list, doesn't it follow that you must have
5) Braaaiiinz?
| 99 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:26:26pm |
re: #85 iceweasel
There are distortions on the right, but the left has also played it easy with the truth as well. Moreover, the public anger is real. Yes, there are organization looking to latch onto it, but that always happens. Sooner or later, the professional leader class will always try to co-opt a grassroots movement. In some ways this is needed to turn the movements strength into practical legislation, something that now needs to start happening.
| 100 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:26:30pm |
re: #72 Racer X
Wait, are you talking about Obama and Soros and ACORN? Or something else?
Classic! You mentioned Obama, Soros, and ACORN in a single post! All three bugaboos in a single line!
///?
| 101 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:26:42pm |
re: #88 Dark_Falcon
My zombie plan would involve taking the shotgun to my head. There are some things that I would not want to survive.
Permit me to recommend--to the adults with a strong sense of humor--the film Chopper Chicks in Zombietown.
| 102 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:26:59pm |
re: #89 iceweasel
It's being funded by insurance companies themselves, for one. They're pouring money into fake 'grassroots' organisations like Freedomworks.
Holy freaking cow titties!
You know you are right! I had an insurance conglomerate contact me recently and ask if I would go protest at a town hall meeting!
OK maybe I made that up.
| 103 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:27:47pm |
re: #89 iceweasel
It's being funded by insurance companies themselves, for one. They're pouring money into fake 'grassroots' organisations like Freedomworks.
of course they are. Follow the money.
| 104 |
Edouard Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:27:50pm |
re: #84 lazardo
You're not the only one frustrated, that's for sure. But there's a distinct line between "proper" dissent in civil discourse and the craziness we've seen, and it's important to keep these boundaries in mind.
If I may, what are those "boundaries"? Because to tell the truth, everyone has a different idea about that.
Frustration legitimately ends in shouting sometimes, let me just say.
Do no physical harm and make no personal threats I can certainly go along with -- but firmly and loudly expressed anger about the misbegotten plans and deeds of our out-of-touch lawmakers is fair game because it is entirely real. People are legitimately angry -- not in a "manufactured" way. This anger has lain dormant like a forgotten land mine that has just been stepped on when lawmakers figured they were in the clear with another mega-spending scheme.
Anger must be expressed directly. These lawmaker-ignoramuses just don't get it otherwise.
| 105 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:28:27pm |
re: #100 austin_blue
Classic! You mentioned Obama, Soros, and ACORN in a single post! All three bugaboos in a single line!
///?
Booga-booga!
Heh™
| 106 |
realwest Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:28:44pm |
re: #69 austin_blue
No. There is a generated groundswell by very powerful, special interest groups that have a put tremendous amounts of money to make it happen. This is not organic. It is manufactured.
Sorry austin_blue - just as I was about to leave you had to chuck that in, didn't you? You don't think it's possible that groups of people - of various stripes and types, could be pissed off AS HELL at a Congress and President who believe they can spend our way out of a recession - with borrowed money, no less?
You don't think that seniors who seen their stock portfolios tank, their 401k's grind to 20% of value, who won't be getting a COLA raise in Social Security benefits BUT will be getting higher premiums and other costs for Medicare; that middle aged folks trying to send their kids to college and who instead are fighting to find a job - now almost ANY job or are still holding onto a job but can no longer send their kids to college; and folks who are going to lose their homes in foreclosure because one or both of a working couple are unemployed right now, might not just be a little pissed off? Really?
BULLSHIT. I don't know if the tea parties (the forerunners of these disruptive town meetings) were orchestrated or not; I do know that people I know and trust who've been to town hall meetings at which NO ONE carried a gun, and at which no union thugs were employed and at which truly DISRUPTIVE people were given the gate to waves of applause from 90+% of those still there are not "astroturfed" they are well and truly PISSED OFF. And y'all better get used to it, cause when Obama lets Bush's middle class tax cuts lapse, and if unemployment and UNDERemployment don't go down, the pissed off "level" will be bouncing off the end of the meter.
| 107 |
Syrah Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:29:07pm |
There are still fires near the observatory but much less then there were last night.
| 108 |
tradewind Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:29:08pm |
re: #87 el polacko
They take their cue from the head honcho's motto: All The News That Fits, We Print.**
**Or Broadcast.
| 109 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:29:42pm |
re: #88 Dark_Falcon
I feel you, but my bigger fear is that I would be "in my element". I've been working on my zombie plan for nearly 25 years. I might enjoy it too much.
/vivid imagination
| 110 |
tradewind Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:29:48pm |
re: #100 austin_blue
Must be a country songwriter at heart.
:)
| 111 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:30:26pm |
re: #85 iceweasel
I'd be delighted if an informed and engaged citizenry was showing up at these events asking thoughtful and intelligent questions. That would be ideal. I don't care what their ideology is.
But that isn't what's happening, in many cases. We have seniors on medicare showing up saying they don't want government health care. We have people saying they 'want their country back'. We have armed people showing up carrying signs about the tree of liberty and dropping weapons.
And I don't think that pretending it isn't happening, or denying that the GOP itself is now encouraging it (as well as disseminating lies about Death Panels, VA Death Book, and claiming that the Democrats are going to use voter registrations to deny care to Republicans) is going to make it go away.
Unless one's goal is to be the "Party of No" and one's philosophy is "What can we do to screw the Democrats today".
Some are fine with that. Me, I'd like to see a better opposition party and a calmer political climate, more conducive to discourse. I suspect you would too.
There is no doubt the fringes and the crazy edges are coming out of the woodwork. That bothers me as well. I am not happy that some of these fools are showing up with guns. I am not happy that some of these meetings have devolved into shouting matches. All of that has happened.
But, that is not the real story. Concentrating on the loonies all you want. For every John Bircher or Paulian, there are many, many more "regular folks". The outrageous behavior just gets more attention, that's all. And, it's not just Republicans showing up, there are many Democrats that are just as scared and mad about the direction of this country.
This is a giant display of a nations mood. And, Obama is having trouble reading it. He has over extended his hand and went too far. He did not have a sweeping mandate to make all of these changes. He misjudged what he could get away with. And, it has hurt him politically...hurt him badly. Not only has he stopped his momentum, he has revitalized the GOP.
| 112 |
Syrah Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:30:34pm |
re: #107 Syrah
There are still fires near the observatory but much less then there were last night.
[Link: www.astro.ucla.edu...]
Try this.
[Link: www.astro.ucla.edu...]
| 113 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:31:11pm |
re: #106 realwest
See, that there is why I try to upding every one of RW's posts. Because on the really good ones I can only upding once, so I hafta make up for it.
Thanks RW!
| 114 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:31:37pm |
re: #98 tradewind
Ha! The fewer I have, the safer I am.
| 116 |
bloodnok Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:32:41pm |
re: #111 Desert Dog
There is no doubt the fringes and the crazy edges are coming out of the woodwork. That bothers me as well. I am not happy that some of these fools are showing up with guns. I am not happy that some of these meetings have devolved into shouting matches. All of that has happened.
But, that is not the real story. Concentrating on the loonies all you want. For every John Bircher or Paulian, there are many, many more "regular folks". The outrageous behavior just gets more attention, that's all. And, it's not just Republicans showing up, there are many Democrats that are just as scared and mad about the direction of this country.
This is a giant display of a nations mood. And, Obama is having trouble reading it. He has over extended his hand and went too far. He did not have a sweeping mandate to make all of these changes. He misjudged what he could get away with. And, it has hurt him politically...hurt him badly. Not only has he stopped his momentum, he has revitalized the GOP.
That sounds like the same defense of the teaparties. And we know how those turned out. (Not well)
| 117 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:32:43pm |
re: #89 iceweasel
It's being funded by insurance companies themselves, for one. They're pouring money into fake 'grassroots' organisations like Freedomworks.
So, all of those people are bussed in by the "evil insurance" companies? Really? That's a laugh. The only people I see being bussed in and handed pre-made "protest" signs are the losers the Dems are bringing in.
It is very funny to see your reactions to this. You lefties are not used to this...classic...just classic.
| 119 |
solomonpanting Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:33:45pm |
re: #106 realwest
I do know that people I know and trust who've been to town hall meetings at which NO ONE carried a gun, and at which no union thugs were employed and at which truly DISRUPTIVE people were given the gate to waves of applause from 90+% of those still there are not "astroturfed" they are well and truly PISSED OFF.
Obviously, those folks are part and parcel of the wider plot to mix it up just enough to throw one off course. The PISSED OFF can't be too obvious.
| 120 |
realwest Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:33:51pm |
Well y'all I'm outta here - got to get some sleep.
Hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.
Good Night, all.
| 121 |
sngnsgt Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:34:19pm |
Harry Reed held a closed health care meeting at a hospital here in Vegas tonight, audience members were invite only and their questions were screened.
| 122 |
lostlakehiker Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:34:45pm |
re: #78 Edouard
Here's what I don't get. How do those of us who are frustrated with the economic naif in the White House, and the spendaholics on Capitol Hill get our voices heard if being polite appears no longer to work?
We object to bazillion-dollar governmental boondoggle after another, and we are entirely ignored if we object politely.
Is it wrong to be so frustrated? Am I a "crazy"? Look, I'm not any "Paulbot". Yet if I raise my voice when I go see my congressman, because he just isn't paying attention, am I, too, to be mocked anyway, even at LGF for being a lunatic -- merely for being frustrated as hell and demanding that our lawmakers change course dramatically and fast, lest they really screw the fiscal pooch for America for a generation to come?
It's a mistake to go screaming. It's a mistake to think that you're in any position to demand anything.
Your congressman isn't paying attention because he figures this is a done deal. We don't have the votes. He does. We aren't in a position to donate big time money. The companies he's shaking down know they must, whether they're in a position to do so or not.
We aren't going to win anything significant until we become, and by becoming, win the reputation of being, the party of reason. The Democrats cannot ever have that reputation, because they're beholden to too many unreasonable positions. We've squandered our hold on that position. Almost nobody in politics is being reasonable nowadays.
| 123 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:34:46pm |
re: #106 realwest
Sorry austin_blue - just as I was about to leave you had to chuck that in, didn't you? You don't think it's possible that groups of people - of various stripes and types, could be pissed off AS HELL at a Congress and President .
Of course it is. It is also true that those people are being manipulated by special interest groups (such as FreedomWorks) and lied to by prominent members of the GOP and others, who knowingly endorse lies about death panels, euthanasia, and dem plots to deny registered republicans health care.
I'm all for informed, passionate, but civil debate on health care reform. Unfortunately that isn't what's happening, and that's partly because the groups I mentioned are manipulating people's fear and anger.
| 124 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:34:52pm |
re: #118 Killgore Trout
Beat you to it with the undead thing. Sorry bro.
| 125 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:35:32pm |
re: #117 Desert Dog
So, all of those people are bussed in by the "evil insurance" companies? Really? That's a laugh. The only people I see being bussed in and handed pre-made "protest" signs are the losers the Dems are bringing in.
It is very funny to see your reactions to this. You lefties are not used to this...classic...just classic.
Classic projection and misdirection. It is very well documented that union members are getting bused in to town hall meetings.
| 126 |
Syrah Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:36:16pm |
This astroturf stuff. Is it the same stuff as a certain ex-president had in the back of his El Camino?
| 127 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:36:29pm |
| 128 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:36:54pm |
re: #125 Racer X
Classic projection and misdirection. It is very well documented that union members are getting bused in to town hall meetings.
There is plenty of denial on the left, too, about the mood of the people. Plenty of it.
| 129 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:37:20pm |
re: #116 bloodnok
That sounds like the same defense of the teaparties. And we know how those turned out. (Not well)
Hardly a defense. It's the truth...sorry
There are not enough Paulians, Birchers, Nirthers, etc, etc to turn out the numbers that showed up. Even if the evil insurance companies trucked in the drones...they are still short. So, that means the majority of the attendees, by far, were regular people, exercising their right to protest. What's the matter? Does that scare you? They should just stay home and shut up then?
| 130 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:37:46pm |
re: #117 Desert Dog
I can't find the link right now, Desert Dog, but my Stateside friend emailed me a report of a citizen at a Town Hall meeting, standing toward the back, who raised a small poster of Obama-as-Joker, and was immediately surrounded by guards who threatened imprisonment if he didn't leave, NOW!
"But this is Free Speech! This is America!" he blurted out, as they were forcibly ejecting him...
"Not any more it ain't!" came the spoken response...
| 131 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:37:47pm |
So, what effect will this have? Medea endorsing, with much approval, the disruptive kookservative tactics going on recently at these town hall meetings.
I suspect none.
| 132 |
pink freud Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:37:50pm |
re: #128 capitalist piglet
There is plenty of denial on the left, too, about the mood of the people. Plenty of it.
Plenty of misdirection also.
/Politifact
| 133 |
srb1976 Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:38:08pm |
re: #124 Slumbering Behemoth
Beat you to it with the undead thing. Sorry bro.
| 135 |
pink freud Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:38:55pm |
re: #130 Karridine
I can't find the link right now, Desert Dog, but my Stateside friend emailed me a report of a citizen at a Town Hall meeting, standing toward the back, who raised a small poster of Obama-as-Joker, and was immediately surrounded by guards who threatened imprisonment if he didn't leave, NOW!
"But this is Free Speech! This is America!" he blurted out, as they were forcibly ejecting him...
"Not any more it ain't!" came the spoken response...
Very disturbing, Karradine.
| 136 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:40:27pm |
re: #130 Karridine
I can't find the link right now, Desert Dog, but my Stateside friend emailed me a report of a citizen at a Town Hall meeting, standing toward the back, who raised a small poster of Obama-as-Joker, and was immediately surrounded by guards who threatened imprisonment if he didn't leave, NOW!
"But this is Free Speech! This is America!" he blurted out, as they were forcibly ejecting him...
"Not any more it ain't!" came the spoken response...
I am all for free speech. But, showing up to disrupt a meeting interferes with others rights as well. I have no problem tossing out someone who's only goal is to draw attention to themselves and disrupt a meeting.
| 137 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:41:00pm |
re: #135 pink freud
Very disturbing, Karradine.
Here it is; I guess the guy threatening arrest is a security guard, not a policeman (from what I've read about the incident):
| 138 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:41:26pm |
re: #82 Desert Dog
Sometimes you are right, Blue. And, sometimes you are wrong. You really think this is being run by some special interest groups? Which ones? Please enlighten me. This it is not real? It's fake? How so? I think the response from the Democrats smacks of artificiality and "unorganic" matter. People are mad and scared. Closing your eyes and hoping they go away will not work on this one. You are going to be in a big surprise this next election. If Obama and Co. continue the path they are on, you will be seeing many, many newly unemployed Democratic Representatives and Senators.
Not fake. *Generated*. Big difference. If you put out an advertising campaign that goes to people's greatest fears, you will achieve some resonance. And there are a lot of people who *want* to believe that a government program is actually more efficient that a private program, which is the model for the rest of the rest of the western world. The opposition has been primed for years by Limbaugh and his ilk. When seniors in Town Halls yell "Don't nationoailize my Medicaire!, you know that the propaganda has been supremely effective.
| 139 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:41:33pm |
re: #123 iceweasel
Of course it is. It is also true that those people are being manipulated by special interest groups (such as FreedomWorks) and lied to by prominent members of the GOP and others, who knowingly endorse lies about death panels, euthanasia, and dem plots to deny registered republicans health care.
I'm all for informed, passionate, but civil debate on health care reform. Unfortunately that isn't what's happening, and that's partly because the groups I mentioned are manipulating people's fear and anger.
Nope.sorry.wrong
| 140 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:42:27pm |
re: #136 Desert Dog
I am all for free speech. But, showing up to disrupt a meeting interferes with others rights as well. I have no problem tossing out someone who's only goal is to draw attention to themselves and disrupt a meeting.
I don't know, but the incident we're talking about looks to me like it happened outside - but I only watched it once. I could be mistaken. I just posted it.
The security guard seemed to simply not like his sign.
| 141 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:42:38pm |
re: #138 austin_blue
Not fake. *Generated*. Big difference. If you put out an advertising campaign that goes to people's greatest fears, you will achieve some resonance. And there are a lot of people who *want* to believe that a government program is actually more efficient that a private program, which is the model for the rest of the rest of the western world. The opposition has been primed for years by Limbaugh and his ilk. When seniors in Town Halls yell "Don't nationoailize my Medicaire!, you know that the propaganda has been supremely effective.
Exactly. Amazing, really.
| 142 |
pink freud Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:42:51pm |
re: #137 capitalist piglet
Here it is; I guess the guy threatening arrest is a security guard, not a policeman (from what I've read about the incident):
WOW.
| 143 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:43:09pm |
re: #138 austin_blue
Not fake. *Generated*. Big difference. If you put out an advertising campaign that goes to people's greatest fears, you will achieve some resonance. And there are a lot of people who *want* to believe that a government program is actually more efficient that a private program, which is the model for the rest of the rest of the western world. The opposition has been primed for years by Limbaugh and his ilk. When seniors in Town Halls yell "Don't nationoailize my Medicaire!, you know that the propaganda has been supremely effective.
So, it's your contention these are mindless robots showing up, reading the talking points and being controlled by some unseen puppet masters?
| 144 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:44:25pm |
re: #122 lostlakehiker
LostLake, you say "We aren't going to win anything significant until ... the party of reason."
More than 10 years' of experiencing the lack of American UNITY after elections, of experiencing first-hand the destructive effects of party politics, and you STILL think partisan politics and arrogant politicians can heal the spiritual diseases now rampant and abundantly evidenced in the DIS-unity afflicting us?
| 145 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:44:56pm |
re: #130 Karridine
I can't find the link right now, Desert Dog, but my Stateside friend emailed me a report of a citizen at a Town Hall meeting, standing toward the back, who raised a small poster of Obama-as-Joker, and was immediately surrounded by guards who threatened imprisonment if he didn't leave, NOW!
"But this is Free Speech! This is America!" he blurted out, as they were forcibly ejecting him...
"Not any more it ain't!" came the spoken response...
Not something I would have gone along with. I'd say "Call the Cops." and refuse to budge.
| 146 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:45:12pm |
| 147 |
Edouard Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:45:16pm |
re: #122 lostlakehiker
It's a mistake to go screaming. It's a mistake to think that you're in any position to demand anything.
Your congressman isn't paying attention because he figures this is a done deal. We don't have the votes. He does. We aren't in a position to donate big time money. The companies he's shaking down know they must, whether they're in a position to do so or not.
We aren't going to win anything significant until we become, and by becoming, win the reputation of being, the party of reason. The Democrats cannot ever have that reputation, because they're beholden to too many unreasonable positions. We've squandered our hold on that position. Almost nobody in politics is being reasonable nowadays.
Fiscal conservatives are the party of reason. The trouble is that unreasonable people have gotten their hands on power and are not listening to quiet, reasonable people.
Reasonable people do have to raise their voices at times, like unhappy parents sometimes must do when their children are out of control.
Of course we are "in a position to demand" something. We are voters. If our lawmakers are pretending that we don't exist, plugging their ears and going "la la la," we have the right to raise our voices and say, "Pay attention, look me in the eyes, and listen, because I have examined the 1017 pages of HR 3200, and I can't be snowjobbed here."
If everyone had just been quiet in their reasonableness, this monstrous faux "health care" would have been signed, sealed, and delivered already before the beginning of August.
| 148 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:46:17pm |
re: #130 Karridine
I can't find the link right now, Desert Dog, but my Stateside friend emailed me a report of a citizen at a Town Hall meeting, standing toward the back, who raised a small poster of Obama-as-Joker, and was immediately surrounded by guards who threatened imprisonment if he didn't leave, NOW!
"But this is Free Speech! This is America!" he blurted out, as they were forcibly ejecting him...
"Not any more it ain't!" came the spoken response...
I have to say that the spoken response you're reporting there sounds a wee bit like an urban legend being tacked on to the end. It sounds a lot like similar claims made about Bush rallies that were later also proven to be false.
I don't doubt the rest of your story though.
| 149 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:46:24pm |
re: #140 capitalist piglet
I don't know, but the incident we're talking about looks to me like it happened outside - but I only watched it once. I could be mistaken. I just posted it.
The security guard seemed to simply not like his sign.
I have not seen it, so I should not comment on that. Some of these people come in too mad and too upset to conduct themselves in a proper manner. A townhall meeting is supposed to be interactive. I say let the Dems hang themselves with their own rope...turn on their mikes and let's hear about their wonderful plan. That alone should sink it...all the yelling and screaming will start to look pretty bad after a while.
| 150 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:46:24pm |
re: #137 capitalist piglet
Thanks, Piglet! (I had to run out to bring in drying clothes from the sudden rain here in suburban Bangkok!)
| 151 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:46:26pm |
| 152 |
pink freud Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:46:26pm |
re: #145 Dark_Falcon
Not something I would have gone along with. I'd say "Call the Cops." and refuse to budge.
"This used to be America!"
" ...it ain't no more."
UNBELIEVABLE.
| 153 |
Silvergirl Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:46:32pm |
| 154 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:47:30pm |
re: #131 Slumbering Behemoth
So, what effect will this have? Medea endorsing, with much approval, the disruptive kookservative tactics going on recently at these town hall meetings.
I suspect none.
I'm sorry- what were you saying?
| 155 |
swamprat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:48:23pm |
re: #148 iceweasel
I have to say that the spoken response you're reporting there sounds a wee bit like an urban legend being tacked on to the end. It sounds a lot like similar claims made about Bush rallies that were later also proven to be false.
I don't doubt the rest of your story though.
| 156 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:48:40pm |
re: #145 Dark_Falcon
EXACTLY! That was why I didn't click the link in the email, just read my friend's short recap, which may (Iceweasel) be urban myth...
'You want to MARTYR me for this Obama-As-Liar poster? CALL THE COPS!'
| 157 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:49:57pm |
re: #148 iceweasel
I have to say that the spoken response you're reporting there sounds a wee bit like an urban legend being tacked on to the end. It sounds a lot like similar claims made about Bush rallies that were later also proven to be false.
I don't doubt the rest of your story though.
Wow, just watched the vid-- that's weird.
| 158 |
swamprat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:50:37pm |
Night Karridine. Long time, no blog.
Later lizards.
| 159 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:50:51pm |
Thanks, Swampy!
NOT urban myth... an isolated incident, but Tip of the Iceberg Hat to SwampRat!
| 160 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:51:18pm |
re: #156 Karridine
EXACTLY! That was why I didn't click the link in the email, just read my friend's short recap, which may (Iceweasel) be urban myth...
'You want to MARTYR me for this Obama-As-Liar poster? CALL THE COPS!'
Agreed. That said, I would not have held up a picture like that in the first place. Comparing Obama to a homicidal maniac is a breach of civil discourse in my eyes. Not severe enough to warrant immediate ejection, but still a violation.
| 161 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:52:00pm |
re: #156 Karridine
EXACTLY! That was why I didn't click the link in the email, just read my friend's short recap, which may (Iceweasel) be urban myth...
'You want to MARTYR me for this Obama-As-Liar poster? CALL THE COPS!'
No-- it's there in the vid all right. Although they were talking over each other and the guy with the sign was deliberately trying to provoke stuff-- the sign itself was pretty ugly, too, IMO.
| 162 |
ladycatnip Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:52:17pm |
#138 austin_blue
Not fake. *Generated*. Big difference. If you put out an advertising campaign that goes to people's greatest fears, you will achieve some resonance. And there are a lot of people who *want* to believe that a government program is actually more efficient that a private program, which is the model for the rest of the rest of the western world. The opposition has been primed for years by Limbaugh and his ilk. When seniors in Town Halls yell "Don't nationoailize my Medicaire!, you know that the propaganda has been supremely effective.
Seniors do NOT want their Medicare socialized. Right now they don't have to get permission to see a specialist or get permission for surgery, etc. It works, but unfortunately it's almost bankrupt. What Obamacare plans on doing is rationing Medicare - meaning they are cutting back on cardio care. That's rationing. Someone is NOT going to get the care they need. Cardiologists have spoken out about this cut the administration wants to do.That's not playing on fears or generating anything. Read the bill - all 900+ pages of it.
The bottom line - we do NOT want socialized medicine, or single payer. Period.
| 163 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:52:25pm |
re: #160 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. That said, I would not have held up a picture like that in the first place. Comparing Obama to a homicidal maniac is a breach of civil discourse in my eyes. Not severe enough to warrant immediate ejection, but still a violation.
Yeah, agreed.
| 165 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:52:52pm |
re: #137 capitalist piglet
The sign appears in the intro. It includes a "Final Solution" at the bottom.
There is much stupidity in that video, shared equally by all parties. Just a whole host of stupid.
| 166 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:53:24pm |
re: #149 Desert Dog
I have not seen it, so I should not comment on that. Some of these people come in too mad and too upset to conduct themselves in a proper manner. A townhall meeting is supposed to be interactive. I say let the Dems hang themselves with their own rope...turn on their mikes and let's hear about their wonderful plan. That alone should sink it...all the yelling and screaming will start to look pretty bad after a while.
I posted it at #137; it doesn't take long to watch (a minute or two). I recommend everyone take a look at it.
The objection seems to have been to the sign's content, and nothing more. He wasn't yelling and screaming, as far as I can tell. He was threatened with arrest, not forcibly removed...but the security guard most certainly does say that it isn't America anymore.
| 167 |
swamprat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:53:39pm |
re: #159 Karridine
Thanks, Swampy!
NOT urban myth... an isolated incident, but Tip of the Iceberg Hat to SwampRat!
No. Stole it right from post 137/ capitalist pig.
Thanks.
| 168 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:53:56pm |
re: #165 Slumbering Behemoth
The sign appears in the intro. It includes a "Final Solution" at the bottom.
There is much stupidity in that video, shared equally by all parties. Just a whole host of stupid.
Exactly. I'm not going to freak out about it.
| 169 |
spudly Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:54:14pm |
Moronic convergence has been around as a phrase for a LONG time. I'd heard it before I even knew LGF existed.
Perhaps "used" might have been better than "coined."
A quick google found a reference (in a bibliography) in print to an article with that as the title (Richard Blow, 1988, New Republic). The source suggests it's even used in a political context.
Doesn't change the fact that it IS a moronic convergence one bit. It's just reflexive copy editing.
Just saying.
| 170 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:54:39pm |
re: #106 realwest
Sorry austin_blue - just as I was about to leave you had to chuck that in, didn't you? You don't think it's possible that groups of people - of various stripes and types, could be pissed off AS HELL at a Congress and President who believe they can spend our way out of a recession - with borrowed money, no less?
You don't think that seniors who seen their stock portfolios tank, their 401k's grind to 20% of value, who won't be getting a COLA raise in Social Security benefits BUT will be getting higher premiums and other costs for Medicare; that middle aged folks trying to send their kids to college and who instead are fighting to find a job - now almost ANY job or are still holding onto a job but can no longer send their kids to college; and folks who are going to lose their homes in foreclosure because one or both of a working couple are unemployed right now, might not just be a little pissed off? Really?
BULLSHIT. I don't know if the tea parties (the forerunners of these disruptive town meetings) were orchestrated or not; I do know that people I know and trust who've been to town hall meetings at which NO ONE carried a gun, and at which no union thugs were employed and at which truly DISRUPTIVE people were given the gate to waves of applause from 90+% of those still there are not "astroturfed" they are well and truly PISSED OFF. And y'all better get used to it, cause when Obama lets Bush's middle class tax cuts lapse, and if unemployment and UNDERemployment don't go down, the pissed off "level" will be bouncing off the end of the meter.
RW-
I respect you completely, but the great majority of the people in this country are sheeple and absolutely moved by the media. And right now, the people that are being moved are on the conservative wing. It's not Code Pink that are showing up at Town Halls to argue about health care. The protesters are being driven (Baaa!) by other forces completely.
Here's the problem:
There is no Republican voice that speaks for these people. They are totally reactionary. It's largely Paulians and Neo-Birchers and radical religious right and Supremacists. Granted, there are other folks who are joining in, but given the core group, they are fellow travelers.
| 171 |
realwest Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:54:47pm |
re: #123 iceweasel
Sorry - this is the last time this morning I'm coming back - but JUST AS AN EXAMPLE - Mom and I are not getting a COLA increase in our social security benefits this year; our health care costs are going up and we're already underwater with Medicare now.
WE ARE PISSED OFF. We don't need any GOPer's or insurance companies telling us to be pissed off. We have family who've been laid off and are having their houses foreclosed upon and they and WE are pissed off about that. And we don't need ANYONE to tell us to tell off our congresscritters - we've been doing it with e-mails and letters for months now. So on their August recess, when the aforesaid congresscritters have town hall meetings we attend of our own free volition (or mom and I would if we were physically able to).
The Democrats won - we get it, ya know? But we don't intend to sit idly by and watch our health deteriorate or suffer substandard living conditions (and don't forget WE'VE PAID INTO SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE probably for longer than you've been alive) and if the Dems had any brains at all they'd wake up, smell the damn coffee and STOP this idiotic bankrupting of America. WHY THE RUSH with the Stimulus Bill? WHY THE RUSH with Healthcare Reform? WHY THE RUSH with Cap and Trade? Why aren't Congresscritters and certain union folk not obliged to abide by Obamacare?
And don't, PLEASE, blame this on Bush - Obama's first annual budget projected a now nearly TWO TRILLION DOLLAR deficit; more than Bush ran up in his last four years in office.
I'm too tired and too pissed off to post anymore tonight.
Good night to you and austin_blue and anyone else who objects to what I've said, and if I've insulted anyone with the way I've said things i'm sorry for that. But I have spoken the truth. Period.
| 172 |
pink freud Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:54:57pm |
re: #166 capitalist piglet
I posted it at #137; it doesn't take long to watch (a minute or two). I recommend everyone take a look at it.
The objection seems to have been to the sign's content, and nothing more. He wasn't yelling and screaming, as far as I can tell. He was threatened with arrest, not forcibly removed...but the security guard most certainly does say that it isn't America anymore.
Somehow I can't imagine Medea Benjamin or any of her cronies being told 'this ain't America no more."
| 173 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:55:23pm |
Remember the last time we saw Medea at LGF-she was at a Tea Party.
| 174 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:55:41pm |
re: #143 Desert Dog
So, it's your contention these are mindless robots showing up, reading the talking points and being controlled by some unseen puppet masters?
No.
| 175 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:55:44pm |
re: #161 iceweasel
I agree about the ugliness of the sign, and Falcon above you I agree with... and yet it is EXACTLY the signs that many consider 'ugly' that are Constitutionally protected! THATS the point, speech is speech, ugly or not...
And the 'Not any more it ain't' comment was freely given, by a cop expecting subservient acquiescence to his Police State mentality...
| 176 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:55:47pm |
re: #161 iceweasel
No-- it's there in the vid all right. Although they were talking over each other and the guy with the sign was deliberately trying to provoke stuff-- the sign itself was pretty ugly, too, IMO.
He came looking for trouble with that sign. Same as the guys here in Phoenix that brought the guns to Obama's speech. It was legal and the cop was definitely out of line. But, it's clear to me, he came with that sign hoping to get a rise out of someone. He had his video camera all ready. It's kinda like the Good Rev. here in AZ that goes out to ICE checkpoints just so he can get arrested and then complains about his rights being violated.
| 177 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:55:57pm |
re: #155 swamprat
Good catch swamprat. Geez that poster was worse than I thought. After further review, I must charge the person carrying with a gross distortion. To refer to "National Socialist Health Care" and speak of a "Final Solution" is accuse Obama of being a Nazi. Such a charge is ridiculous and hateful. And it would in my opinion justify removal, for a Godwin's Law violation if for no other reason (though there are plenty of other reasons).
| 178 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:56:21pm |
re: #154 Sharmuta
I'm sorry- what were you saying?
I dunno, I lost my train of though. How about a movie trailer?
NSFW, of course...
| 179 |
pat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:56:51pm |
Please. When Democrats do something really offensive, it is an isolated incident. When a conservative does it, not even a member of the Republican Party, it is a national trend that must be used to ridicule anyone who agrees with even a portion of the over all sentiment expressed by the nut case.
Learn the rules!
| 180 |
SFGoth Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:57:46pm |
Enough ugliness! [Link: bighollywood.breitbart.com...] I think she's right, although not phrased as articulately as it could be. Natalie, if you need a stay at home dad for your children...
| 181 |
cane toad Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:57:48pm |
Has anyone seen this yet? [Link: my.barackobama.com...]
| 182 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:57:59pm |
re: #178 Slumbering Behemoth
I dunno, I lost my train of though. How about a movie trailer?
NSFW, of course...
You know- I'm really much more into the living.
| 183 |
srb1976 Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:58:06pm |
Ack, it's my day to ferry the children to daycare in the morning...what am I doing awake?!?
| 184 |
ladycatnip Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:58:14pm |
#179 pat
Totally agree with you. Well said.
| 185 |
ladycatnip Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:59:13pm |
Greetings piglet and pink! Nice to see you. ;-)
| 186 |
solomonpanting Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:59:13pm |
re: #170 austin_blue
the great majority of the people in this country are sheeple
Exactly. Amazing, really.
///
| 187 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:59:34pm |
| 188 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:59:35pm |
re: #171 realwest
Goodnight, RW. As always, your dedication to our nation is an inspiration to all who love liberty.
| 189 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:59:50pm |
re: #177 Dark_Falcon
Recap: When we refuse courteous dialogue (or are deprived of venues FOR courteous dialogue) we find ourselves 64-grey-scale of discourteous...
Was the sign minus-17?
or minus 53?
Return to courteous interchange of rational dialogue...
| 190 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:00:21pm |
re: #179 pat
Please. When Democrats do something really offensive, it is an isolated incident. When a conservative does it, not even a member of the Republican Party, it is a national trend that must be used to ridicule anyone who agrees with even a portion of the over all sentiment expressed by the nut case.
Learn the rules!
That about sums it up, Pat. If you go to a Tea Party...you are a Paulian extremist. If you go to a townhall and yell at the Congressman, you are a bussed in mindless fool parroting a deliberate line of BS prepared for you by greedy insurance companies.
That sounds nice in some circles. I myself don't see it that way at all.
| 191 |
Mike Nargizian Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:00:22pm |
| 192 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:00:54pm |
re: #179 pat
Please. When Democrats do something really offensive, it is an isolated incident. When a conservative does it, not even a member of the Republican Party, it is a national trend that must be used to ridicule anyone who agrees with even a portion of the over all sentiment expressed by the nut case.
Learn the rules!
What are you talking about?
| 193 |
RememberSekhmet? Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:00:57pm |
Look, the idea here is this:
If Congresscritters have to worry about angry grannies with signs disrupting town halls every time x issue is brought up, and x issue goes down to defeat, the idea is going to strike you at some point that folks don't want x to happen, and this goes beyond the usual suspects and party hacks.
If the GOP had more control over the protesters, they could do more about the nuts. But they'd also leave the protesters vulnerable to the argument that they are the minions of the minority party, not citizens genuinely concerned about the future of health care in this country. So agents of the GOP seem to limit themselves to dropping a bug in the right ear or two, but officially are sitting back and trying to let the people take point on this issue in hopes of finally killing the idea of socialized healthcare. So, some nuts get through.
Again, the alternative is not only sincere protesters being dismissed as disgruntled Republicans but an easy rewriting of history as happened with Hillarycare in 1993, ensuring we will have to fight this battle over and over and over again. If 0bamacare is defeated without so much as a smudged GOP fingerprint on the murder weapon, with a veto-proof Dem majority and a far-leftist President---it's going to sink in that Americans by and large don't want their medicine socialized. If it doesn't happen in 2009, it can't happen.
| 194 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:00:59pm |
re: #162 ladycatnip
#138 austin_blue
Seniors do NOT want their Medicare socialized. Right now they don't have to get permission to see a specialist or get permission for surgery, etc. It works, but unfortunately it's almost bankrupt. What Obamacare plans on doing is rationing Medicare - meaning they are cutting back on cardio care. That's rationing. Someone is NOT going to get the care they need. Cardiologists have spoken out about this cut the administration wants to do.That's not playing on fears or generating anything. Read the bill - all 900+ pages of it.
The bottom line - we do NOT want socialized medicine, or single payer. Period.
Sweet Baby Jesus!! Medicare is (not to put too fine point on it, you incredibly fucking moron) socialized medicine! What planet do you spend most of your time on?
| 195 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:01:09pm |
...find ourselves bogged down in endless discussions of the darkness of some shadowed ugliness in the 64-grey scale of uglitrons...
| 196 |
pink freud Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:02:28pm |
re: #177 Dark_Falcon
Good catch swamprat. Geez that poster was worse than I thought. After further review, I must charge the person carrying with a gross distortion. To refer to "National Socialist Health Care" and speak of a "Final Solution" is accuse Obama of being a Nazi. Such a charge is ridiculous and hateful. And it would in my opinion justify removal, for a Godwin's Law violation if for no other reason (though there are plenty of other reasons).
"Gross distortions", "accusing 0bama of being a Nazi", being "ridiculous and hateful", and even "violating Godwin's law" ...you're kidding, right? Are you saying that the above list should somehow no longer be allowed in America?
| 197 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:02:51pm |
| 198 |
pink freud Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:03:30pm |
re: #185 ladycatnip
Greetings piglet and pink! Nice to see you. ;-)
Good to see you too, ladycatnip!
| 199 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:03:32pm |
re: #193 RememberSekhmet?
If the GOP had more control over the protesters, they could do more about the nuts.
Don't you think that's a major problem right now? Who is in control of the message? because it sure as hell ain't the GOP. I see it as a bit of a failure on the part of the party, but that's just me.
| 200 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:04:00pm |
re: #179 pat
Please. When Democrats do something really offensive, it is an isolated incident. When a conservative does it, not even a member of the Republican Party, it is a national trend that must be used to ridicule anyone who agrees with even a portion of the over all sentiment expressed by the nut case.
Learn the rules!
If I even gave less than half a shit, I would plunder through the archives of LGF during Bush's admin to see what you had to say about the people in any of Zombie's excellent (no sarc) exposes on leftist protests.
There were more than enough comments (likely from myself as well), that used such things as a broad brush to paint all liberals with.
Your assertion falls flat, IMO.
| 201 |
ladycatnip Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:04:45pm |
#194 austin_blue
If I were your mother I'd wash your mouth out with soap.
| 202 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:05:53pm |
re: #195 Karridine
...find ourselves bogged down in endless discussions of the darkness of some shadowed ugliness in the 64-grey scale of uglitrons...
I'd give that sign a -72 on the scale of ugly. The sign was not intended to defend a position or stimulate debate. Rather it was intended to start a conflict by flinging the ugliest insults possible at Obama. I loathe Obama and the way he gainsays those who disagree with him. But to compare him to Hitler is not only extremely insulting to Obama, it is also a sign of either severe moral confusion or severe moral turpitude.
| 203 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:05:54pm |
re: #199 Sharmuta
Don't you think that's a major problem right now? Who is in control of the message? because it sure as hell ain't the GOP. I see it as a bit of a failure on the part of the party, but that's just me.
Both parties...the Dems are out of control...why do you think they are getting this reaction? The GOP is a rutter-less ship. We live in an insane world.
| 204 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:06:26pm |
re: #181 cane toad
Has anyone seen this yet? [Link: my.barackobama.com...]
Just remember: We Are The Super-Heroes Who Yes WE DID, and YES, WE SHALL commence administering Super-Hero Karate Chops, beginning now.
Judy Chop!
| 205 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:06:41pm |
re: #176 Desert Dog
He came looking for trouble with that sign. Same as the guys here in Phoenix that brought the guns to Obama's speech. It was legal and the cop was definitely out of line. But, it's clear to me, he came with that sign hoping to get a rise out of someone. He had his video camera all ready. It's kinda like the Good Rev. here in AZ that goes out to ICE checkpoints just so he can get arrested and then complains about his rights being violated.
Yes, that's my exact sense of it too. I'm glad there's video footage-- makes the circumstances a lot clearer.
| 206 |
Edouard Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:06:44pm |
re: #194 austin_blue
Sweet Baby Jesus!! Medicare is (not to put too fine point on it, you incredibly fucking moron) socialized medicine! What planet do you spend most of your time on?
Good grief. Must you be abusive?
| 207 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:07:29pm |
re: #196 pink freud
"Gross distortions", "accusing 0bama of being a Nazi", being "ridiculous and hateful", and even "violating Godwin's law" ...you're kidding, right? Are you saying that the above list should somehow no longer be allowed in America?
Allowed in America, yes. Allowed at a town hall: probably not. A sign like that poisons the atmosphere and prevents debate. It basically threatens to turn a meeting into a screaming match.
| 208 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:10:28pm |
re: #177 Dark_Falcon
Good catch swamprat. Geez that poster was worse than I thought. After further review, I must charge the person carrying with a gross distortion. To refer to "National Socialist Health Care" and speak of a "Final Solution" is accuse Obama of being a Nazi. Such a charge is ridiculous and hateful. And it would in my opinion justify removal, for a Godwin's Law violation if for no other reason (though there are plenty of other reasons).
Yes. I thought before viewing the video we were talking about the Obama-Joker-Socialist sign that we've seen before. I don't like that sign, but I think it's permissible to show up wearing a tshirt of it or carrying it. Ugly, yes, but not going too far.
This sign though...indefensible, IMO.
| 209 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:10:39pm |
re: #203 Desert Dog
Both parties...the Dems are out of control...why do you think they are getting this reaction? The GOP is a rutter-less ship. We live in an insane world.
Actually- the democrats seem much better organized. Just because there's backlash against this agenda, or you disagree with it doesn't mean their machine isn't running. It is, and they have better control over their message than we do with ours.
| 210 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:10:52pm |
re: #201 ladycatnip
#194 austin_blue
If I were your mother I'd wash your mouth out with soap.
If I were your mother, I would suggest that you get a clue before opening your freaking cake-hole.
I can accept my propensity for profanity. The rest of the world cannot accept your blatant ignorance. It's embarrassing to everyone on this board. Medicare isn't socialized medicine? Where have you been for the past 45 years?
Geez.
| 211 |
Killian Bundy Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:11:17pm |
Midterm: Dems may lose control
Political analysts predict sizable Democratic losses in the 2010 midterm election, Politico reports, following a troublesome August full of raucous town halls and grassroots dissent.
Though predictions vary, experts estimate a loss of somewhere between 20 and 50 House seats for the Democrats, a margin which straddles the line between a balance of power and a shift toward Republican dominance of the Congress.
“The situation this summer has slipped completely out of control for President Obama and congressional Democrats,” writes political analyst Charlie Cook. “Many veteran congressional election watchers, including Democratic ones, report an eerie sense of deja vu, with a consensus forming that the chances of Democratic losses going higher than 20 seats is just as good as the chances of Democratic losses going lower than 20 seats.”
/whatever's happening is working
| 212 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:11:32pm |
re: #208 iceweasel
Yes. I thought before viewing the video we were talking about the Obama-Joker-Socialist sign that we've seen before. I don't like that sign, but I think it's permissible to show up wearing a tshirt of it or carrying it. Ugly, yes, but not going too far.
This sign though...indefensible, IMO.
Quite Concur.
| 213 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:12:08pm |
re: #210 austin_blue
And we should all strive for Medicare! Because it is working so well. Ask RW.
| 214 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:12:08pm |
re: #205 iceweasel
Yes, that's my exact sense of it too. I'm glad there's video footage-- makes the circumstances a lot clearer.
Like this guy, a little long, but this guy is a**hole
| 215 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:12:25pm |
re: #206 Edouard
Good grief. Must you be abusive?
Not usually, But that was *so* ignorant it deserved abuse.
| 216 |
SFGoth Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:13:34pm |
re: #203 Desert Dog
Both parties...the Dems are out of control...why do you think they are getting this reaction? The GOP is a rutter-less ship. We live in an insane world.
Rutter? Rudder?
| 217 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:13:43pm |
re: #213 Racer X
And we should all strive for Medicare! Because it is working so well. Ask RW.
Three percent overhead. fancy that.
| 218 |
Silvergirl Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:13:52pm |
re: #203 Desert Dog
Both parties...the Dems are out of control...why do you think they are getting this reaction? The GOP is a rutter-less ship. We live in an insane world.
There has been some known rutting within the GOP. I wouldn't say it's entirely rutterless.
| 219 |
zombie Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:13:52pm |
Ah, Code Pink. My old friends.
I remember an encounter in Denver at the DNC convention. I took a video of Code Pink screaming the way only Code Pink can, outside the Emily's List event.
I really think you need to watch the whole video to get the full flavor of what it's like to be in the vicinity of Code Pink in person. Really, it will only take a minute and a half out of your life, and you will finally understand on a gut level the whole Code Pink experience:
Code Pink Protest at EMILY's List Gala at DNC in Denver:
| 220 |
Killian Bundy Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:14:41pm |
re: #213 Racer X
And we should all strive for Medicare! Because it is working so well.
/tens of trillions of dollars in the hole is what it is, not really a good model to strive for
| 221 |
Desert Dog Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:14:43pm |
re: #216 SFGoth
Rutter? Rudder?
My English teacher father would wrap me on the knuckles for that one! LOL.
| 222 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:15:06pm |
re: #215 austin_blue
Not usually, But that was *so* ignorant it deserved abuse.
And you are entitled to your opinion. But what if others feel the same way about you? Then the whole conversation just goes downhill from there.
| 223 |
Steffan Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:16:03pm |
I have always thought that the left-right BS is a circle... and the extremist left is identical to the extremist right.
Nazis and Communists are two sides to a very leprositic coin. Benito Mussolini, if you care to recall, was a Socialist and claimed unto his dying day, Fascist or not, that he maintained his Socialist ideas.
Don't hold your breath to see this info on the Puffington Host.
| 224 |
RememberSekhmet? Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:16:24pm |
re: #199 Sharmuta
Don't you think that's a major problem right now? Who is in control of the message? because it sure as hell ain't the GOP. I see it as a bit of a failure on the part of the party, but that's just me.
When Hillarycare went down, people were just as angry about it. But given leftist control of the media, they were able to re-cast the whole thing as wily old Newt Gingrich using his masterful kung-fu to outmaneuver the Democrats despite the cries of the people for reform. So here we are 16 years later back where we started.
Not only that, but 16 years later, the left has perfected the art of political personal destruction by embodying their enemies (us) in some imperfect human being, then proceeding to use those imperfections to destroy the person and smear their politics.
The tactic here is to exploit Democrat mistakes, help feed the anger Democrat policies cause, all while remaining in the background and seemingly leaderless. Political guerilla warfare, if you please. Perhaps as the Democrats tarnish their own halos when suddenly finding themselves in a room of salt somehow, a more proactive and less reactive course of action on the part of the GOP can start. But for right now, I think they are doing the right thing.
| 225 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:16:26pm |
re: #206 Edouard
Good grief. Must you be abusive?
Oh, and I thought this was an anti-idiotarian board.
Was I mistaken?
Okey, dokey, then. Pound me.
| 226 |
Racer X Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:16:52pm |
re: #220 Killian Bundy
/tens of trillions of dollars in the hole is what it is, not really a good model to strive for
Some people cannot wait to get that level of health care.
Sheesh. Talk about ignorant.
| 227 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:18:24pm |
re: #202 Dark_Falcon
Be that as it may, the sign is deeply disturbing to Democrats and Obama supporters who have been more-or-less ACTIVELY promoting Obama as some kind of leader...
But the image of white-faced psychotic liar is even MORE disturbing when one reviews Obama, in Obama's own words, lying about something... and the image for the soundtrack is Joker-Obama...
Pause.
Deep breath... IF Obama is consciously LYING to America, then that Obama-Joker image IS a legitimate opening for reasoned discourse, isn't it?
| 228 |
cane toad Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:18:35pm |
I guess most people i know are right-wing domestic terrorists now.
| 229 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:19:58pm |
re: #224 RememberSekhmet?
When Hillarycare went down, people were just as angry about it. But given leftist control of the media, they were able to re-cast the whole thing as wily old Newt Gingrich using his masterful kung-fu to outmaneuver the Democrats despite the cries of the people for reform. So here we are 16 years later back where we started.
Great! Call me when the new Contract With America is drafted.
| 230 |
Silvergirl Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:20:38pm |
re: #221 Desert Dog
My English teacher father would wrap me on the knuckles for that one! LOL.
Now you really are showing off for your father. Wrap you on the knuckles!
| 231 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:21:06pm |
re: #207 Dark_Falcon
Allowed in America, yes. Allowed at a town hall: probably not. A sign like that poisons the atmosphere and prevents debate. It basically threatens to turn a meeting into a screaming match.
Two questions for you (or anyone who wants to throw in):
1. How do you feel about what the guard said?
2. If the sign were a parody of President Bush, and a leftist held it outside a town hall meeting, would you recommend his/her removal?
| 232 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:21:35pm |
re: #211 Killian Bundy
It was PRECISELY these potential losses that the first-term Democrats had in mind when they refused to vote for Obama-Care
The Dems HAVE a numerical majority, but STILL haven't the moral fiber to vote for this piece of garbage.,...
| 233 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:22:17pm |
re: #228 cane toad
I guess most people i know are right-wing domestic terrorists now.
The cane toad is a loathsome creature, which befits that ugly and inflammatory comment.
| 234 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:23:30pm |
re: #228 cane toad
I guess most people i know are right-wing domestic terrorists now.
Yeah, because that kind of infantile hyperbole always gains friends and wins debates.
Clueless FTL!
| 235 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:23:45pm |
re: #231 capitalist piglet
I HAVE jpegs and gifs of President Bush as Islamo-fascist, as Freedom-sucking Vampire, as neo-Hitlerian fascist and as Stalinist killer... and the sign-carriers were NOT asked to leave the room...
| 236 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:24:13pm |
re: #222 Racer X
And you are entitled to your opinion. But what if others feel the same way about you? Then the whole conversation just goes downhill from there.
Look, if I post something that is so monumentally wrong-headed, based on facts that we all know are true, I absolutely expect to get hammered. That post was absolute shite. Everyone on this board should say so, get it over with, and move on. Why hammer someone who points out that the emperor has no clothes?
| 237 |
Edouard Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:25:18pm |
Let me just air my dilemma here. I have been posting comments at this site for years and trying to be thoughtful in doing so.
LGF seems more hostile to me now.
It's as if I'm not supposed to be angry or frustrated enough around here about health care, to go to the roundly ridiculed "tea parties."
It's as if I'm not supposed to see what I do see at town hall meetings or "tea parties", thousands and thousands of ordinary Americans who usually aren't politically active and could not be "organized" by a living soul...
...people who are simply FED UP and who willed themselves to go out to these events, with their eyes full of equal measures of dismay at professional spendocrats, and the firmly held hope that America's course could even at a rather late hour be turned in a brighter direction.
Perhaps there is some political naivete among some of these people. But some of the most decent, most honest, most un-"organizable" people you will ever meet, are going to these events.
If LGF is going to be hostile to such events when such great people go to them -- not just the "crazies" -- then I feel sad about this site and want to spend less time here. To tell the truth I have been spending a lot less time here since "tea party" became such a dirty word at LGF because I know and have seen something far different.
You may not see me as much anymore, but there's my 2 cts.
| 238 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:05pm |
re: #235 Karridine
I HAVE jpegs and gifs of President Bush as Islamo-fascist, as Freedom-sucking Vampire, as neo-Hitlerian fascist and as Stalinist killer... and the sign-carriers were NOT asked to leave the room...
I believe it.
And you know what? Their speech is protected. I wouldn't recommend the removal of someone holding an inflammatory sign about President Bush outside a town hall meeting - and the left makes signs that put this one to shame, in terms of offensive content.
I'm sort of surprised to see people zeroing in on the sign, and not the security guard's comment. Like that part of it wasn't the significant thing.
I wouldn't have expected that, especially from conservatives here.
| 239 |
Killian Bundy Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:06pm |
re: #232 Karridine
It was PRECISELY these potential losses that the first-term Democrats had in mind when they refused to vote for Obama-Care
The Dems HAVE a numerical majority, but STILL haven't the moral fiber to vote for this piece of garbage.,...
And they're going to trot out cap and trade in the Senate at the end of September. You think voters are angry now?
/they need to put card check on the front burner too for the political death wish trifecta
| 240 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:59pm |
re: #231 capitalist piglet
Two questions for you (or anyone who wants to throw in):
1. How do you feel about what the guard said?
2. If the sign were a parody of President Bush, and a leftist held it outside a town hall meeting, would you recommend his/her removal?
1. The guard's reaction seemed to me to be one of someone who needed to enforce the rules without arguing with someone who only wants to create a problem. For all we know, the "Not anymore. its not" comment could have been a reference to the signholder's Alex Jones-level Bad Craziness. We don't fully understand the context.
2. Yes, If a sign attack George W and was being brought in, I'd support its removal. It would just as inflammatory, and just as wrong.
| 241 |
solomonpanting Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:27:26pm |
re: #235 Karridine
I HAVE jpegs and gifs of President Bush as Islamo-fascist, as Freedom-sucking Vampire, as neo-Hitlerian fascist and as Stalinist killer... and the sign-carriers were NOT asked to leave the room...
No different than a vehicle sporting conservative causes being keyed while those sporting liberal ones remain unscathed.
| 243 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:28:08pm |
re: #236 austin_blue
Look, if I post something that is so monumentally wrong-headed, based on facts that we all know are true, I absolutely expect to get hammered. That post was absolute shite. Everyone on this board should say so, get it over with, and move on. Why hammer someone who points out that the emperor has no clothes?
You were unnecessarily personal, and crude.
You could have made your point without being either.
| 244 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:29:28pm |
re: #235 Karridine
I HAVE jpegs and gifs of President Bush as Islamo-fascist, as Freedom-sucking Vampire, as neo-Hitlerian fascist and as Stalinist killer... and the sign-carriers were NOT asked to leave the room...
Uh, actually Bush had people detained and questioned, or arrested, just for wearing Tshirts. You couldnt even get into one of his events if you had an anti-war bumpersticker. At his events protesters were always corralled in a side area. And people were arrested for even looking like they might be there to protest.
WH Policy Illegally Silences Americans Critical of Bush
[Link: www.denverpost.com...]
[Link: orient.bowdoin.edu...]
[Link: www.aclu.org...]
| 245 |
cane toad Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:29:53pm |
That was a joke folks.goto the web site i linked earlier.
| 246 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:30:34pm |
re: #240 Dark_Falcon
I actually had the same reading as you over the guards comment, too.
| 247 |
Silvergirl Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:30:43pm |
re: #235 Karridine
I HAVE jpegs and gifs of President Bush as Islamo-fascist, as Freedom-sucking Vampire, as neo-Hitlerian fascist and as Stalinist killer... and the sign-carriers were NOT asked to leave the room...
There is a double standard. There is. Spin and pontificate and deny and defend, but there it is.
| 248 |
SixDegrees Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:32:05pm |
re: #31 pat
Your silly citation failed to cite anything that supported your case that pundits were encouraging armed attendance at Town Hall meetings. Rather you referred me to a politician that stupidly argued it was legal. So did the Black Panthers. And they were likewise correct. At the time.
I specifically asked about "pundits". I took the word to mean major political commentators such as George Will, Michael Barone, Limbaugh, Ingrahm, Medved, or Hewitt. Instead you deflected.
our country is now in the hands of a politician who was a member of a far left Socialist Party in Illinois, who was the attorney of a far left group that has renamed itself because of legal indictments, who organized disruptive and near violent protests of banks and the Chicago City Council. Who not only read leftists literature, but had the terrorists/author as his baby sitter. And who attended a hate-filled racist church that believed in every lefyist crack pot theory ever imagined.
You are trite . Nothing more.
You need to look up the definition of 'pundit'. Although you started off in the last thread by claiming there were no Republicans who did such things, the proof that you're wrong works in both instances.
| 249 |
ladycatnip Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:33:08pm |
#210 austin_blue
Medicare may be sometimes referred to as socialized but it is not. It's specifically for senior citizens and those seniors have choices - which you don't have in true socialized healthcare. My mother didn't have to wait for permission for open heart surgery when she was 78. She didn't wait for months to get an appointment to see a doctor and she sees the specialists of her choice when she so desires. Obviously you haven't educated yourself on what socialized medicine is and how it's practiced in Europe and Canada.
These seniors at the TH meetings are spitting mad because they don't want socialized healthcare and they don't want their medicare rationed. Read this s.l.o.w.l.y.
| 250 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:33:18pm |
re: #241 solomonpanting
No different than a vehicle sporting conservative causes being keyed while those sporting liberal ones remain unscathed.
Here's a progressive blogger who had his car vandalised at a town hall:
My co-worker, Mike Ditto, went to Congressman Ed Perlmutter's Town Hall meeting on Saturday to listen to him talk to constituents about health insurance reform. While he was there, his car was badly vandalized.
The side mirrors were smashed off. Big dent on his hood. And scratches and dents on every door and nearly every other panel of his car. All because he had an SEIU Healthcare Rally flier in his car.
The health insurance reform rhetoric has become heated over the last few weeks, but to bash someone's car because they believe differently than you? That's just wrong. It gave Mike quite a shock. And a hefty repair quote--nearly $3,000.
[Link: seminal.firedoglake.com...]
Let's not pretend bad behaviour is restricted to one side of the aisle.
| 251 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:33:33pm |
re: #243 capitalist piglet
You were unnecessarily personal, and crude.
You could have made your point without being either.
Funny- you don't hold others to that standard.
| 252 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:34:02pm |
re: #233 Dark_Falcon
Don't you get it, DF? If the perceived opposition calls a certain segment of pretend-conservatives "Right-Wing Extremists", we must all adopt the label and proudly wear it on shirts or display it on bumper-stickers and protest signs as a show of solidarity.
Same goes for "I am the Mob", and apparently "Right-Wing Domestic Terrorist". It's a sure way to show we are reasonable and in touch with the political reality of our country.
///
/So far, I don't see anyone chomping at the bit to adopt Pelosi's characterization with "I am a Nazi" signs, but I guess there is a top limit of stupidity that some cannot yet reach for.
| 253 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:34:46pm |
re: #244 iceweasel
I see yr links, I see the situation at the presidential level, and yet you KNOW that anti-Bush protesters WERE given air time (Sidney Whats-Her-Name) and DID use visual and verbal hyperbole to demonize Bush...
and Mrs Clinton, and General Petraeus and literally hundreds of others...
I'm reinforcing the Call for Courteous Discourse, the calm (even if sometimes heated) exchange of reasoned outlooks...
Good links, by the way...
| 254 |
zombie Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:35:12pm |
re: #242 Karridine
Repetitive, shrill, blunt... endless...
Did I miss any cogent adjectives, Zombie?
Yes: you missed repetitive, repetitive, repetitive and repetitive.
re: #235 Karridine
I HAVE jpegs and gifs of President Bush as Islamo-fascist, as Freedom-sucking Vampire, as neo-Hitlerian fascist and as Stalinist killer... and the sign-carriers were NOT asked to leave the room...
In case you missed my earlier reports:
Bush as Hitler, Swastika-Mania: A Retrospective
and
| 255 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:37:17pm |
re: #251 Sharmuta
Funny- you don't hold others to that standard.
What, have I been running around cheering people who tell honest brokers in a discussion that they're fucking morons? I don't remember that, but you apparently do...could you link me up to my error, please? I'd like to see that, and I have no doubt you have it handy.
| 256 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:38:33pm |
re: #253 Karridine
I'm reinforcing the Call for Courteous Discourse, the calm (even if sometimes heated) exchange of reasoned outlooks...Good links, by the way...
I'm totally with you on the call for civility and courteous discourse. I didn't like the extremist and ugly anti-bush rhetoric either.
And I'm a civil libertarian, so I'll defend people's right to say what they want but it doesn't mean I have to like it or approve of it. I also don't have a problem with keeping obvious troublemakers out of an event or ejecting them. Then they can stand across the street with their sign, no matter how ugly, and I'll support their right to do that.
| 257 |
zombie Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:38:48pm |
re: #244 iceweasel
Uh, actually Bush had people detained and questioned, or arrested, just for wearing Tshirts. You couldnt even get into one of his events if you had an anti-war bumpersticker. At his events protesters were always corralled in a side area. And people were arrested for even looking like they might be there to protest.
WH Policy Illegally Silences Americans Critical of Bush[Link: www.denverpost.com...]
[Link: orient.bowdoin.edu...]
[Link: www.aclu.org...]
So far, after three weeks of trying, not a single person has successfully pointed out to me a single instance of a protester being arrested for threatening Bush's life at a protest. I'm beginning to suspect it never happened.
And no, excluding protesters from camera range at Bush in-person events does not count. Were some off those politically motivated exclusions/arrests? Possibly. But that's a different category of incident.
| 258 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:39:04pm |
re: #251 Sharmuta
Funny- you don't hold others to that standard.
Didn't you get the memo? IOKIYAR.
;)
| 259 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:39:04pm |
re: #237 Edouard
LGF seems more hostile to me now.
It's as if I'm not supposed to be angry or frustrated enough around here...
I am confused here. Are you saying that LGF is more hostile because you are not allowed to show anger and frustration?
Am I missing something?
Would that not like be saying:
"LGF seems more pacifist to me now.
It's as if I'm not supposed to be loving and accepting enough around here..."
| 260 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:39:16pm |
re: #255 capitalist piglet
and I have no doubt you have it handy.
Then you presume wrong and flatter yourself. You had no issue when I was called names, and I remember it- that's all.
| 261 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:39:23pm |
re: #243 capitalist piglet
You were unnecessarily personal, and crude.
You could have made your point without being either.
Sorry, this board is either anti-idiotarian, or it's not. Bullshit must be called bullshit.
| 262 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:40:21pm |
re: #245 cane toad
That was a joke folks.goto the web site i linked earlier.
In the future, please remember to use a /sarc tag if you are making a joke like that.
| 263 |
Karridine Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:40:22pm |
re: #254 zombie
Thanks, Zomboid One...
Iceweasel? Check these links...
re: #256 iceweasel
In case you missed my earlier reports:
Bush as Hitler, Swastika-Mania: A Retrospective
and
| 264 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:40:23pm |
re: #257 zombie
So far, after three weeks of trying, not a single person has successfully pointed out to me
Then you've been ignoring the many links Killgore has been providing here, for three weeks.
| 265 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:40:40pm |
re: #260 Sharmuta
Then you presume wrong and flatter yourself. You had no issue when I was called names, and I remember it- that's all.
I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about, Sharmuta. Who called you a "fucking moron"?
And believe me, there are people here who flatter themselves - but I am not one of them. I promise you that.
| 266 |
solomonpanting Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:40:40pm |
re: #250 iceweasel
My bleeding liberal heart heartily bleeds liberally for that liberal bleeding heart. Really. Amazing.
| 267 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:42:15pm |
re: #265 capitalist piglet
You updinged insults the other day. Don't act so innocent.
| 268 |
pat Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:42:40pm |
re: #248 SixDegrees
That is frankly a stupid and rather desperate comment. A pundit is a learned commentator. Everyone here knows what it means but two of you.
| 269 |
Killian Bundy Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:44:03pm |
re: #264 iceweasel
Then you've been ignoring the many links Killgore has been providing here, for three weeks.
You must have mistakenly chopped off the rest of the sentence you quoted.
a single instance of a protester being arrested for threatening Bush's life at a protest
/Killgore's been posting those?
| 270 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:44:08pm |
re: #262 Dark_Falcon
In the future, please remember to use a /sarc tag if you are making a joke like that.
Yeah, I'm not normally a fan of the sarc tag, but in this case it was necessary...
Sorry cane toad if I misread you.
| 271 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:44:35pm |
re: #267 Sharmuta
You updinged insults the other day. Don't act so innocent.
I'm sorry. I don't keep a record, even in memory, of all my activity here. Did someone call you a fucking moron (or something like it), and get updinged by me?
| 272 |
zombie Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:45:03pm |
re: #264 iceweasel
Then you've been ignoring the many links Killgore has been providing here, for three weeks.
I have not been ignoring anything. Not a single link was to a relevant news story. Almost all referred to incidents in which anti-Bush protesters were excluded from Bush in-person appearances for propaganda/political reasons -- they were NOT removed for threatening his life because they weren't threatening his life.
| 274 |
Silvergirl Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:45:38pm |
re: #260 Sharmuta
Then you presume wrong and flatter yourself. You had no issue when I was called names, and I remember it- that's all.
This sounds a little like a mental friends/enemies list going. Do we have to nurse grudges in this way? Even with the "that's all," it doesn't seems such a that's all.
| 275 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:46:11pm |
re: #271 capitalist piglet
So- it's okay to insult people so long as it's not with the term "fucking moron"?
| 276 |
zombie Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:46:30pm |
re: #269 Killian Bundy
/Killgore's been posting those?
Nope -- not that I've seen.
I'm open to evidence -- if I see such a link, I will include it in the report's "Counter-Examples" section.
| 277 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:46:36pm |
re: #274 Silvergirl
This sounds a little like a mental friends/enemies list going. Do we have to nurse grudges in this way? Even with the "that's all," it doesn't seems such a that's all.
I grow weary of double standards.
| 278 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:48:02pm |
re: #275 Sharmuta
So- it's okay to insult people so long as it's not with the term "fucking moron"?
You obviously have something you want to dredge up, so - as long as you think Charles won't mind - dredge it. But make sure you're comparing apples to apples.
| 279 |
Silvergirl Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:49:06pm |
re: #275 Sharmuta
So- it's okay to insult people so long as it's not with the term "fucking moron"?
Do you believe that, or would you honestly suggest CP does?
I would venture a guess that with your long history and many posts at LGF that you have insulted a person, or updinged an insult to another.
Things are feeling snotty around here. I'll take a Kleenex and pass the box around, k?
| 280 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:49:52pm |
re: #278 capitalist piglet
Play stupid then. No skin off my nose.
| 281 |
austin_blue Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:51:02pm |
re: #249 ladycatnip
#210 austin_blue
Medicare may be sometimes referred to as socialized but it is not. It's specifically for senior citizens and those seniors have choices - which you don't have in true socialized healthcare. My mother didn't have to wait for permission for open heart surgery when she was 78. She didn't wait for months to get an appointment to see a doctor and she sees the specialists of her choice when she so desires. Obviously you haven't educated yourself on what socialized medicine is and how it's practiced in Europe and Canada.
These seniors at the TH meetings are spitting mad because they don't want socialized healthcare and they don't want their medicare rationed. Read this s.l.o.w.l.y.
Well that's completely wrong. Medicare is a socialized system that services a specific group of people, in this case, seniors. Like other countries, seniors in the US have the option of basing their care on the Medicaid program or augmenting it with additional insurance policies.
As for the rest of the western world, you have two choices:
Either they are all jumping all over each other to adopt our system or they are not.
| 282 |
capitalist piglet Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:51:42pm |
re: #280 Sharmuta
Play stupid then. No skin off my nose.
Sharmuta, no offense, but I care about your issues and your remarks here less than you must think I do.
I'm not playing stupid. I just don't keep a Sharmuta file. I honestly don't. I react to things as they come.
And if it's no skin off your nose, good - it's none off of mine either, believe me.
| 284 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:54:35pm |
re: #272 zombie
I have not been ignoring anything. Not a single link was to a relevant news story. Almost all referred to incidents in which anti-Bush protesters were excluded from Bush in-person appearances for propaganda/political reasons -- they were NOT removed for threatening his life because they weren't threatening his life.
In other words, the Bush policy of excluding all protesters from his events also means you can't find arrests of people threatening his life at his events. Because people were already arrested for wearing nasty Tshirts at his events.
Remind me again: what's your point here? Are you denying that threats to Obama have quadrupled? Are you somehow claiming that the Secret Service didn't investigate threats against Bush? What exactly is your point?
Because I fail to see the relevance of talking about mean signs and tshirts on the left during the Bush admin, except as an attempt to deflect attention from the crazy on the right at the moment.
Unless you have confirmation from the Secret Service I don't think you're justified in your claims, anyway. You're arguing from the fact that you don't know something, to a positive conclusion.
| 285 |
Sharmuta Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:57:05pm |
re: #282 capitalist piglet
It's simple- you have no credibility here to scold someone for insults when you've encouraged it in others. You don't care if it's your friends doing it, but when it suits you, you're more than willing to act offended. Spare me.
| 286 |
Silvergirl Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:02:08am |
re: #284 iceweasel
In other words, the Bush policy of excluding all protesters from his events also means you can't find arrests of people threatening his life at his events. Because people were already arrested for wearing nasty Tshirts at his events.
Remind me again: what's your point here? Are you denying that threats to Obama have quadrupled? Are you somehow claiming that the Secret Service didn't investigate threats against Bush? What exactly is your point?
Because I fail to see the relevance of talking about mean signs and tshirts on the left during the Bush admin, except as an attempt to deflect attention from the crazy on the right at the moment.Unless you have confirmation from the Secret Service I don't think you're justified in your claims, anyway. You're arguing from the fact that you don't know something, to a positive conclusion.
I don't know if you've read Zombie's links or just looked at the pictures, or neither, but he may have already answered your first two questions.
His point is to highlight the hypocrisy of anyone now expressing outrage that Obama could uniquely suffer these indignities.
He also said the following, which may answer your second question.
I contend that the media is aggressively reporting on, highlighting and pursuing any and all possible threats to President Obama — and even hints of threats — but they purposely glossed over, ignored or failed to report similar threats to President Bush. Why? I believe it is part of an ideological bias: most mainstream networks and newspapers tried their best during the Bush administration to portray the anti-war movement as mainstream and moderate; whereas now they are trying to portray the anti-tax and anti-health-care-bill protesters as extremists and as fringe kooks. To achieve these goals, they essentially suppressed any mentions of the violent signage (including threats to Bush) at anti-war rallies, but have highlighted anything that could even conceivably be construed as a threat at anti-Obama events.
I believe this partly accounts for the 400% increase in reported threats against Obama over those against President Bush. Part of that reported increase in investigated threats is undoubtedly due to an increase in actual threats; but part of it is almost certainly due to an increase in threats which get reported by the media and are therefore brought to the Secret Service’s attention.
| 287 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:02:46am |
re: #263 Karridine
Thanks, Zomboid One...
Iceweasel? Check these links...
re: #256 iceweaselIn case you missed my earlier reports:
Bush as Hitler, Swastika-Mania: A Retrospective
and
I've seen them. Interesting that at least 3 of the photos in one post feature the same guy.
And I think Zombie's already been given a right bollocking in the comments there from some others who object.
I can't think of any more to add, really.
| 288 |
capitalist piglet Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:04:59am |
re: #285 Sharmuta
It's simple- you have no credibility here to scold someone for insults when you've encouraged it in others. You don't care if it's your friends doing it, but when it suits you, you're more than willing to act offended. Spare me.
No, you spare ME. I have never seen anyone so much as approach calling you a name like "fucking moron" (again, Sharmuta, feel free to point me to it), and believe it or not, I am not required to take your side in a dispute between you and someone else - though on occasion, I have, and I would do so again if I felt it the right thing to do.
If you can't handle that, I'm sorry. If I were you, I'd let it go. It obviously bugs the shit out of you.
| 289 |
ladycatnip Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:05:51am |
#281 austin_blue
Well that's completely wrong. Medicare is a socialized system that services a specific group of people, in this case, seniors. Like other countries, seniors in the US have the option of basing their care on the Medicaid program or augmenting it with additional insurance policies.
As for the rest of the western world, you have two choices:
Either they are all jumping all over each other to adopt our system or they are not.
Well, austin_blue, you get a gold star for that response - it was very cordial and non-aggressive, even though I still disagree with you. Medicare is augmented with an additional insurance policy paid for by the seniors and there are no eligibility requirements except to be 65 or older. Medicaid has strict eligibility requirements which Medicare does not. Medicaid is for a different demographic and not exclusively seniors - it is for the truly destitute and also helps with long-term care.
Again, Medicare is not a socialized system compared to socialized systems in Canada and Europe. Remember, the word choice is not in the true classical socialist healthcare systems.
| 290 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:10:36am |
re: #286 Silvergirl
I contend that the media is aggressively reporting on, highlighting and pursuing any and all possible threats to President Obama — and even hints of threats — but they purposely glossed over, ignored or failed to report similar threats to President Bush. Why?
Conspiracy theorist fodder.
Notice the nice setup here. If I find proof that threats to Obama are way up-- which they are -- it will be claimed that I can only find it because 'the media is reporting it more with Obama than they did with Bush".
And if I fail to find it, then it will be claimed that this ALSO proves that threats against Obama aren't actually any higher, or anything to worry about.
See how that works?
And let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that zombie's 'point' really is "teh left didn't care when Bush was threatened". And let's even pretend that were true. (it is not)
Why is this relevant now? Does that somehow excuse, mitigate, or justify the threats to our POTUS coming from the right?
It doesn't. And I simply can't see any of this as anything other than an attempt to excuse, ignore, minimise what's happening on the right-- and an excuse to say, "Hey, look over here-- liberals were mean!"
| 291 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:11:51am |
re: #286 Silvergirl
Oh hey, in my reply above SG I'm quoting you quoting zombie obviously-- i messed up the formatting. Sorry about that.
| 292 |
Edouard Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:12:39am |
re: #259 Slumbering Behemoth
It's all about the "tea party" demonization that is so "en vogue" here now.
I'm well aware that anything that has a Paulbot come within a mile of it, is to be shrieked and pointed at here like something out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Even if Ron Paul or his extremist cohorts have little to do with the motivation of the majority of those who attend these events.
Lots of LGF commenters, following the host's lead it appears, are just Too Cool For Tea Party School as well. Indeed it's as if the kind of anger and frustration that drives regular people to "tea parties" must turn these same regular people into dolts or simpletons for giving in to such simple emotions, and attending such events -- at least if one reviews the tenor of the discussion that any new "tea party" or "town hall" topic arouses at LGF.
Perhaps the "tea party" attendees who are not extremists are supposed to be mere simpletons, but I defend them anyway because I see clearly the simple and the true -- and the correct -- coinciding in their honest responses to the cynical calculations of their spend-o-maniac betters in Washington.
No amount of arch or snarky blog comments, made by both liberals and conservatives, quite a few of them right here at LGF, who fret about the raised volume and purportedly boorish appearance of this simpleton uprising, will change my mind about the many, many honest and straight-dealing "tea partiers" who are truly on the side of the angels in this dispute about how America's treasure is to be spent.
| 293 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:15:58am |
re: #289 ladycatnip
Again, Medicare is not a socialized system compared to socialized systems in Canada and Europe. Remember, the word choice is not in the true classical socialist healthcare systems.
And none of the actual proposals for reforming US health care involve moving to a single payer system such as Canada or the UK. It's off the table. More correctly, it was never on it to begin with.
| 294 |
Bloodnok Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:16:07am |
re: #292 Edouard
It's all about the "tea party" demonization that is so "en vogue" here now.
I'm well aware that anything that has a Paulbot come within a mile of it, is to be shrieked and pointed at here like something out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Even if Ron Paul or his extremist cohorts have little to do with the motivation of the majority of those who attend these events.
Lots of LGF commenters, following the host's lead it appears, are just Too Cool For Tea Party School as well. Indeed it's as if the kind of anger and frustration that drives regular people to "tea parties" must turn these same regular people into dolts or simpletons for giving in to such simple emotions, and attending such events -- at least if one reviews the tenor of the discussion that any new "tea party" or "town hall" topic arouses at LGF.
Perhaps the "tea party" attendees who are not extremists are supposed to be mere simpletons, but I defend them anyway because I see clearly the simple and the true -- and the correct -- coinciding in their honest responses to the cynical calculations of their spend-o-maniac betters in Washington.
No amount of arch or snarky blog comments, made by both liberals and conservatives, quite a few of them right here at LGF, who fret about the raised volume and purportedly boorish appearance of this simpleton uprising, will change my mind about the many, many honest and straight-dealing "tea partiers" who are truly on the side of the angels in this dispute about how America's treasure is to be spent.
Simpleton uprising? Well, as long as you're not dismissing it.../
| 295 |
Silvergirl Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:18:07am |
re: #290 iceweasel
Conspiracy theorist fodder.
Notice the nice setup here. If I find proof that threats to Obama are way up-- which they are -- it will be claimed that I can only find it because 'the media is reporting it more with Obama than they did with Bush".
And if I fail to find it, then it will be claimed that this ALSO proves that threats against Obama aren't actually any higher, or anything to worry about.See how that works?
And let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that zombie's 'point' really is "teh left didn't care when Bush was threatened". And let's even pretend that were true. (it is not)
Why is this relevant now? Does that somehow excuse, mitigate, or justify the threats to our POTUS coming from the right?
It doesn't. And I simply can't see any of this as anything other than an attempt to excuse, ignore, minimise what's happening on the right-- and an excuse to say, "Hey, look over here-- liberals were mean!"
I'm feeling like an owl tonight. Hooot! Zombie as conspiracy theorist? Hoot? Believing that the MSM turns a blind eye and a deaf ear when it suits them is the belief of conspiracy kooks? Hoot!
Who is claiming that Zombie's presentations are there to excuse, mitigate or justify anything? Relevant? Why wouldn't it be? Because the Bush presidency is so 2008?
| 296 |
zombie Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:19:57am |
re: #284 iceweasel
Remind me again: what's your point here? Are you denying that threats to Obama have quadrupled? Are you somehow claiming that the Secret Service didn't investigate threats against Bush? What exactly is your point?
My point is that threats to Obama at protests -- even hints of threats -- are routinely pursued. Which they should be. Yet during the Bush era, similar threats were almost universally ignored.
Yes, I am claiming that the Secret Service did not investigate any of the threats to Bush at protests that I showed in my report. I've never found any evidence that any were investigated, nor has anyone else -- yet mountains of evidence exist for seemingly every single Obama threat.
But if you bothered to read my report, I say very clearly that I am not accusing the Secret Service of incompetence. I'm saying the Secret Service never knew of the threatening signs because the media never reported on them. I won't repeat the whole essay here.
Yes, there is an article which says that reported threats to Obama have quadrupled. I'm not denying that. But the number of overall threats, reported and unreported, may however tell a different story.
Also, you are conflating in-person presidential events and just general protests. When the president is in town, the Secret Service gets very very nervous, and often bundles away disruptive protesters. This happens during every presidency. But when it's just a plain 'ol' protest with no president in the vicinity -- obviously then nobody ever got "silenced" during the Bush administration, as my Web site more than amply demonstrates.
I still stand by my report. It speaks for itself. If you're not interested in reading it or understanding my point, then you are free to ignore it.
| 297 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:23:32am |
re: #292 Edouard
It's all a conspiracy. All of it. Every little bit of criticism, every tiny little piece, designed to demonize the kook flavor of the day. Keep telling yourself that.
| 298 |
ladycatnip Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:24:18am |
#293 iceweasel
And none of the actual proposals for reforming US health care involve moving to a single payer system such as Canada or the UK. It's off the table. More correctly, it was never on it to begin with.
I never made that assertion. My point from the beginning was to explain why seniors are so angry - it was made in response to someone upthread who made the fantastic claim that the anger these people exhibited was *generated* when in fact it is not.
Obama is the one who has said in the past he is for a single-payer system as are many of his cronies on the Hill. This scam of a healthcare bill is simply the portal to that end.
| 299 |
zombie Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:26:05am |
re: #287 iceweasel
I've seen them. Interesting that at least 3 of the photos in one post feature the same guy.
Yes, it is interesting. I took those pictures myself. But it's not "interesting" for the sarcastic reason you're thinking -- it's interesting how a repeat offender, an obvious dangerous creep who ought to have been considered a real threat, could show up at protest after protest with completely violent signs, and never get stopped, or arrested, or investigated. The fact the the same guy coiuld get away with it repeatedly proves my point, not yours.
And I think Zombie's already been given a right bollocking in the comments there from some others who object.
And they got a right bollocking back.
I can't think of any more to add, really.
If you have nothing more to add, then I'm happy.
| 300 |
Bloodnok Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:27:07am |
re: #292 Edouard
"tea partiers" who are truly on the side of the angels in this dispute
| 302 |
zombie Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:30:13am |
re: #290 iceweasel
Conspiracy theorist fodder.
Notice the nice setup here. If I find proof that threats to Obama are way up-- which they are -- it will be claimed that I can only find it because 'the media is reporting it more with Obama than they did with Bush".
And if I fail to find it, then it will be claimed that this ALSO proves that threats against Obama aren't actually any higher, or anything to worry about.See how that works?
And let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that zombie's 'point' really is "teh left didn't care when Bush was threatened". And let's even pretend that were true. (it is not)
Why is this relevant now? Does that somehow excuse, mitigate, or justify the threats to our POTUS coming from the right?
It doesn't. And I simply can't see any of this as anything other than an attempt to excuse, ignore, minimise what's happening on the right-- and an excuse to say, "Hey, look over here-- liberals were mean!"
It's quite obvious you have failed to read my report, or at least refuse to admit you've read it. Because it addresses, pre-emptively, every single one of your objections.
That's fine. That's your right. In fact, it makes me glad to see that you have absolutely no other basis for criticizing the report, aside from the ones I predicted and already defused. Makes me more confident that the critics have nothing.
| 303 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:30:44am |
re: #295 Silvergirl
Relevant? Why wouldn't it be? Because the Bush presidency is so 2008?
Yes. It is so 2008.
Because our current POTUS has 400 times the level of threats as Bush. Because people are saying he's an usurper who isn't an American.
Because there is a segment of angry white America that is absolutely furious that there is a black man in the White House.
Because membership in white supremacist groups is exploding.
Because GOP representatives are encouraging angry people to carry loaded weapons to townhalls.
Because the John Birchers are back.
Because Glenn Beck is babbling about FEMA camps.
Because Michelle Bachmann is talking about Obama's Hitler Youth.
Because they're already spreading rumours that Obama intends not to leave office in 2012
Because that quote about the tree of liberty being "watered by the blood of patriots and tyrants" is back. The same quote that was on Timothy McVeigh's shirt when he was arrested.
Because stockpiling of weapons and ammo is at an all time high.
Because far right militia recruitment has also exploded.
Because it's not 2000, 2004, or 2008 any more.
Because Bush isn't the POTUS now.
But if, given all this, someone thinks the story of the day is the mean signs lefties carried that could have hurt Bush's feelings 2, 4, 6, 8 years ago-- they can be my guest.
That's the beauty of 'citizen journalism'.
I'll be spending my time here in 2009.
| 304 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:32:43am |
re: #296 zombie
I still stand by my report. It speaks for itself. If you're not interested in reading it or understanding my point, then you are free to ignore it.
I am ignoring it, zombie. You're the one who addressed me. I have no interest in engaging further about your post.
You're right, it does speak for itself.
And the commenters on your site appear to have answered you quite thoroughly. You just don't like what they're saying.
| 305 |
MrPaulRevere Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:33:12am |
re: #296 zombie
Zombie, some imply that you are providing cover for right wing extremists, or that you yourself are a right wing extremist ( I wont name names, as I'm not here to argue). I find this profoundly disturbing. I have followed your career for quite some time, and while you have eloquently expressed your disdain for the radical left, your personal political opinions seem quite moderate and rational to me. The personal courage you have exhibited in your career is worthy of respect, not ankle biting and scorn. You are a hero to me.
| 306 |
zombie Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:36:23am |
re: #305 MrPaulRevere
Zombie, some imply that you are providing cover for right wing extremists, or that you yourself are a right wing extremist ( I wont name names, as I'm not here to argue).
Sigh. I think this section from my report bears repeating (ice, take note):
"Why am I doing this?
Let me make this perfectly clear:
I am not publishing this essay in order to make excuses for anyone who has threatened President Obama, or who plans to threaten him in the future.
This is not some wrongheaded attempt at a tu quoque logical fallacy; in other words, I’m not trying to claim that death threats against Bush in the past justify threats against Obama now. Not at all. What I’m saying is that present-day threats to Obama at protests should be investigated — yet previous threats to Bush at protests weren’t investigated, which I think is inexcusable. Threats to the president aren’t excusable now, and weren’t excusable in the past — and yet death threats against Bush at protests seem to have been routinely ignored for years (and readers who have any evidence showing that the threateners depicted below were ever prosecuted for threatening the president, please tell me and I’ll update this essay with the new info). Why the discrepancy?"
I find this profoundly disturbing. I have followed your career for quite some time, and while you have eloquently expressed your disdain for the radical left, your personal political opinions seem quite moderate and rational to me. The personal courage you have exhibited in your career is worthy of respect, not ankle biting and scorn. You are a hero to me.
Aw, shucks! Thanks.
| 307 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:39:36am |
re: #299 zombie
Sorry, I missed this.
Yes, it is interesting. I took those pictures myself. But it's not "interesting" for the sarcastic reason you're thinking -- it's interesting how a repeat offender, an obvious dangerous creep who ought to have been considered a real threat, could show up at protest after protest with completely violent signs, and never get stopped, or arrested, or investigated. The fact the the same guy coiuld get away with it repeatedly proves my point, not yours.
Actually, you've misread me. The fact that the same guy turned up more than once, given the extensive photos you've taken, seems to prove that it's a small group of kooks who did those things on the left-- not something widespread. Which again, would seem to indicate that what's happening on the right now in 2009 is different and a lot scarier.
If you have nothing more to add, then I'm happy.
I always believe that at bottom, we can all find something to agree upon!
;)
| 308 |
Claire Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:40:27am |
re: #303 iceweasel
I read that the threats were up 400%. That would be 4 times, not 400 times if that number is indeed correct.
| 309 |
Silvergirl Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:42:31am |
re: #303 iceweasel
I don't think I'll quote your whole post. The because drubbing does not make for an easy recovery.
So I'll just take this part
But if, given all this, someone thinks the story of the day is the mean signs lefties carried that could have hurt Bush's feelings 2, 4, 6, 8 years ago-- they can be my guest.
If all you get out of this "story of the day" is a story of mean signs carried by lefties that might have hurt Bush's feelings, proceed and be happy.
Good-night!
| 310 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:42:49am |
re: #306 zombie
What I’m saying is that present-day threats to Obama at protests should be investigated — yet previous threats to Bush at protests weren’t investigated
And again, in the absence of some statement from the Secret Service you have no proof for this claim.
| 311 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:45:07am |
re: #309 Silvergirl
Night Silver-- really, the 'because' drubbing isn't directed at you personally at all, but at those who would seek to deny or minimise what's going on on the right at the moment. I know that isn't you, and I don't even think zombie is doing that necessarily-- but some people are doing it, and they're the ones who will use its posts in that way, you know? That's who I had in mind.
have a good night!
| 312 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:45:51am |
re: #308 Claire
I read that the threats were up 400%. That would be 4 times, not 400 times if that number is indeed correct.
That's right-- thanks. Can't edit my post though after I hit post. :(
| 313 |
zombie Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:48:29am |
re: #310 iceweasel
For someone who has "Nothing more to add" you sure do keep adding!
| 314 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:50:33am |
re: #313 zombie
For someone who has "Nothing more to add" you sure do keep adding!
I'd missed your posts and didn't want to be rude.
| 315 |
Edouard Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:56:43am |
re: #297 Slumbering Behemoth
It's all a conspiracy. All of it. Every little bit of criticism, every tiny little piece, designed to demonize the kook flavor of the day. Keep telling yourself that.
You are trying to put words in my mouth.
I don't believe in conspiracies, by and large.
I really don't think you understand where I'm coming from.
It's hostile around here to "tea partiers" whether they are Paulbots are not. I can see which way the wind is blowing.
I do believe that chatterers who sit on the sidelines encourage each other in their denigration of "tea partiers."
| 316 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Sep 1, 2009 1:15:31am |
re: #315 Edouard
You are trying to put words in my mouth.
No, I'm trying to put them out of mine.
I don't believe in conspiracies, by and large.
I really don't think you understand where I'm coming from.
The tea party people discredit themselves. To say that LGF demonizes them is a bit silly
It's hostile around here to "tea partiers" whether they are Paulbots are not. I can see which way the wind is blowing.
Dig into previous LGF posts. Look around. Even TFK, an early and vociferous proponent of the Tea Parties, has become disgusted with who they are. Look into who organizes them. Who funds them. Who they associate with. To say that any criticism of them is "hostile" on it's face is to promote conspiracy.
I do believe that chatterers who sit on the sidelines encourage each other in their denigration of "tea partiers."
Just because people here do not dive head first with full approval into your favorite activist group does not mean they are "chatterers who sit on the sidelines".
Get over yourself. Get over the Libertarian Tea Parties.
| 317 |
Sharmuta Tue, Sep 1, 2009 1:15:41am |
re: #315 Edouard
If I may say something, Edouard- I've always respected your opinion in the past, and a lot of it based on comments you've made in regards to vlaams belang. So I'm a little surprised by this position of yours.
Perhaps it's not been clear that the issue for some of us with a number of the tea parties isn't the average Americans attending, it's that many of the organizers are in league with paulians and worse. The sorts of people impressed with the euro-fascists. It concerns many of us here that our fellow citizens are attending protests organized by these less than savory folks, and that your good intents are being abused.
| 318 |
SixDegrees Tue, Sep 1, 2009 1:18:35am |
re: #268 pat
That is frankly a stupid and rather desperate comment. A pundit is a learned commentator. Everyone here knows what it means but two of you.
So, you're now claiming that a Republican state representative speaking directly on these matters does not qualify as a learned commentator?
Or are you finally getting around to admitting that you got your ass handed to you?
Oh, wait - those would be the same thing, wouldn't they?
| 319 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 1:23:56am |
re: #318 SixDegrees
So, you're now claiming that a Republican state representative speaking directly on these matters does not qualify as a learned commentator?
Or are you finally getting around to admitting that you got your ass handed to you?
Oh, wait - those would be the same thing, wouldn't they?
Heh.
| 320 |
Edouard Tue, Sep 1, 2009 1:25:01am |
re: #316 Slumbering Behemoth
Get over yourself. Get over the Libertarian Tea Parties.
Oh, I'm "over myself". You're the one who is labeling. I see individual, real people, you apparently are seeing types and not looking at the diverse people themselves. I see real people who aren't being co-opted by anyone. They express themselves and go home. They don't sign up for a party. They're not libertarians. They are "other-than-liberals", if you will, and not so easily classifiable. Recognize that they exist, too. Fair enough?
| 321 |
Sharmuta Tue, Sep 1, 2009 1:26:47am |
re: #316 Slumbering Behemoth
Look around. Even TFK, an early and vociferous proponent of the Tea Parties, has become disgusted with who they are.
I'm glad you mentioned this, because I meant to say something about TFK, and forgot. I think it's a key point as there wasn't a much stronger voice for the movement at LGF more than taxfreekiller. From that level of support to disgust and walking away based on kookiness- you have to take a second look.
| 323 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Sep 1, 2009 1:37:41am |
re: #320 Edouard
The label sticks for a reason, because it's true. The Libertarians, of the Ron Paul stripe even, started the Tea Party protests at least two years before Obama's election. Their movement is not a conservative one.
The kookservatives who are throwing in with this lot aren't being co-opted, they are trying to either merge with, or co-opt for themselves, an originally Loony Libertarian movement.
Look into those that organize the Tea Parties. Look into what else they endorse/associate with. Much info can be found right here.
I recognize that they exist. I also recognize that they do not espouse nor promote anything that could be considered conservative.
Throw in your lot with them if you will, but do not try to tell me they are something they are not.
| 325 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Sep 1, 2009 1:49:27am |
re: #321 Sharmuta
I must admit that I was a bit shocked by his account. I did not expect it from him. That he came here and posted such a comment, in light of his previous ones...
Well, I can say that he has more integrity than the average person.
| 326 |
Edouard Tue, Sep 1, 2009 1:51:06am |
OK, I'm not "throwing my lot in" with anyone, except honest people who refuse to be pigeonholed or labelled, who want their concerns heard.
Please, I'm all ears, for people who are out there expressing a cry in the wilderness -- where do they go? How do they do it effectively if in isolation?
Truly I'm all ears.
The time for shutting up about runaway spending in this country needs to end, like yesterday.
If Ron Paul fans, whom I'm not enamored of, show up at an event, is the entire event invalidated?
If so, please name how non-Ron Paul-fan-infested events can occur.
All ears.
Sharmuta -- Ron Paul thread, multiple Glen Beck threads, anti-Obama protestor with a gun thread, all topics in the last 24 to 36. Is this site not getting weighed down with the density of this stuff? Of course, Charles can post what he wants but this sure is a big thick dose of kook potshotting going on.
| 327 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 1:51:43am |
re: #325 Slumbering Behemoth
I must admit that I was a bit shocked by his account. I did not expect it from him. That he came here and posted such a comment, in light of his previous ones...
Well, I can say that he has more integrity than the average person.
I will say that I thought it was very honest and very admirable that tfk did that. I respect him for it.
| 328 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 1:58:37am |
re: #266 solomonpanting
My bleeding liberal heart heartily bleeds liberally for that liberal bleeding heart. Really. Amazing.
Missed this earlier. Let's review:
So first, you claim that only conservatives get their cars vandalised at political events.
I provide a link proving you wrong, pointing to a progressive blogger's car being vandalised at a town hall 3 weeks ago, and pointing out mildly that bad behaviour happens on both sides of the aisle.
For this you downding me, and respond sneeringly. Suddenly you don't think vandalising cars is a big deal now.
Another shining example of duplicity and dishonesty. A perfect example of IOKIYAR: "It's OK If You're A Republican".
Pathetic.
| 329 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:00:07am |
re: #326 Edouard
OK, I'm not "throwing my lot in" with anyone, except honest people who refuse to be pigeonholed or labelled, who want their concerns heard.
Keep telling yourself that. They have connections, both nasty and foolish.
Please, I'm all ears, for people who are out there expressing a cry in the wilderness -- where do they go? How do they do it effectively if in isolation?
We are now in isolated wilderness? Or is that just hyperbole?
The time for shutting up about runaway spending in this country needs to end, like yesterday.
If you were serious about this, you could have joined the Libertarian Tea Parties two years ago.
If Ron Paul fans, whom I'm not enamored of, show up at an event, is the entire event invalidated?
They are not showing up, you are showing up. They run it. They own it. Look into it. Much of this has been discussed here.
If so, please name how non-Ron Paul-fan-infested events can occur.
All ears.
By being organized by Ron Paul fans. This is not a conservative movement.
Sharmuta -- Ron Paul thread, multiple Glen Beck threads, anti-Obama protestor with a gun thread, all topics in the last 24 to 36. Is this site not getting weighed down with the density of this stuff? Of course, Charles can post what he wants but this sure is a big thick dose of kook potshotting going on.
The kooks make easy targets. Don't blame LGF for taking aim.
| 330 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:05:05am |
re: #329 Slumbering Behemoth
The kooks make easy targets. Don't blame LGF for taking aim.
Not only that -- I'd argue that every single respectable right or independent blog needs to be taking them on and denouncing them. These people are taking over the GOP -- or at least, the GOP is pandering to them.
That's bad for the whole country, no matter what your political affiliation.
And you can't expect the left to do it. How can they? They can't run them out of the GOP or police the right. No, they're pointing and laughing-- when they're not worrying.
Charles is one of the few calling it out. It needs to be called out for what it is: kookery.
| 331 |
Edouard Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:05:28am |
I guess the answer is no, then.
No way for a non-Libertarian, unhappy with runaway spending, to express himself / herself publicly and be seen and recognized by political decision makers.
Do I have that right?
Yeah, it's starting to feel like a real voice in the wilderness here, not hyperbole. No friend of Ron Paul-esque conspiracy wackjobs, no friend of Liberals, no friend of non-Liberals who'd rather see people calm down and be "reasonable."
| 332 |
Sharmuta Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:07:55am |
re: #326 Edouard
Sharmuta -- Ron Paul thread, multiple Glen Beck threads, anti-Obama protestor with a gun thread, all topics in the last 24 to 36. Is this site not getting weighed down with the density of this stuff? Of course, Charles can post what he wants but this sure is a big thick dose of kook potshotting going on.
They're kooks -- it's rightfully earned scorn. Alex Jones, man! You'd denounce troofers, right? How is this any different? Medea Benjamin! Really? I don't feel sorry for kooks getting scorned- they bring it upon themselves.
| 333 |
Edouard Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:15:37am |
re: #332 Sharmuta
They're kooks -- it's rightfully earned scorn. Alex Jones, man! You'd denounce troofers, right? How is this any different? Medea Benjamin! Really? I don't feel sorry for kooks getting scorned- they bring it upon themselves.
Surely there are far more useful topics than wall-to-wall coverage of these loonies and their easily dismissed crackpot thinking.
| 334 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:18:47am |
re: #331 Edouard
I guess the answer is no, then.
No way for a non-Libertarian, unhappy with runaway spending, to express himself / herself publicly and be seen and recognized by political decision makers.
Do I have that right?
No, you do not. You are engaging in hyperbole. "Runaway spending" has been happening for some time now. If you check with the Tea Party insiders, you'll see they have been protesting Bush for much longer than they have been protesting Obama.
Yeah, it's starting to feel like a real voice in the wilderness here, not hyperbole. No friend of Ron Paul-esque conspiracy wackjobs, no friend of Liberals, no friend of non-Liberals who'd rather see people calm down and be "reasonable."
It's all black and white, eh? Well then by all means, get enraged and "unreasonable". That is the perfectly logical alternative in The Universe of False Dichotomies, where we can either shut up and get in line with the drones, or rage against the machine with the rebels, without a single gawt-damned option existing anywhere in between.
I can't wait 'til you start seeing colors. That is going to blow your damn mind.
| 335 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:25:21am |
re: #333 Edouard
Surely there are far more useful topics than wall-to-wall coverage of these loonies and their easily dismissed crackpot thinking.
No, there really aren't. These kooks are wrecking the GOP and wrecking the political discourse in this country. Pretending they aren't there isn't going to make them go away. Pretending they don't have influence isn't going to fix the GOP's electoral problem either.
On the other hand, if I were to comment from a purely partisan, left-ish perspective, I would urge you to ignore them and pretend they're normal and fine-- because that would drive people to the Democrats in droves.
But that isn't my position. I think it's very unhealthy and bad for democracy to have one party in control of everything-- and even worse when the opposition party consists of or panders to crazed rabble. And I don't like political discourse being dominated by the lunatic theory of the day. I'm an independent, and I would like to have some choice in who I vote for.
| 336 |
Claire Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:25:57am |
re: #329 Slumbering Behemoth
The time for shutting up about runaway spending in this country needs to end, like yesterday.If you were serious about this, you could have joined the Libertarian Tea Parties two years ago.
Are you saying Edouard couldn't possibly really be upset today about a 9 trillion dollar deficit if he wasn't upset about the $400 billion deficit 2 years ago? His anger is manipulated by Paulbots and couldn't possibly be real, he's just not smart enough to realize it? Didn't we just hear Nancy Pelosi pretty much say the same thing?
| 337 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:28:34am |
re: #336 Claire
Are you saying Edouard couldn't possibly really be upset today about a 9 trillion dollar deficit if he wasn't upset about the $400 billion deficit 2 years ago? His anger is manipulated by Paulbots and couldn't possibly be real, he's just not smart enough to realize it? Didn't we just hear Nancy Pelosi pretty much say the same thing?
No, but I'd be curious to know how he felt about Bush turning a surplus into a deficit. As SB points out above when he notes that they've been protesting Bush for longer.
| 338 |
Edouard Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:37:34am |
Look, you still don't get where I'm coming from. I said in an earlier post that runaway spending has been going on for years. Of course we all know this.
I was told that wise and "reasonable" -- as in being the nice quiet "party of reason" would somehow magically win the day by another poster.
I guess that's how it's done. Quietly, uneventfully. Heaven forbid, we should suffer the misfortune of crossing paths with some libertarian.
There's no false dichotomy here. There is a reasonable position that you appear to be discouraging conservatives from attempting to express, due to your 100% certainty that the public event in which it is expressed will be coopted in whole by Ron Paul fans.
If I'm to be discouraged from attending a public event to express a reasonable position, yet I am not a Ron Paul fan either, then I'm not really finding a friend for my point of view, now am I?
Only problem is, as condescending as you continue to be here, trying to sound as if you have this tea party organizational universe all figured out and as if I don't know shit, you STILL don't have any answers. I told you I was all ears and I meant it. Go ahead. ORGANIZE that non-Paulbot public meeting that gets the notice of lawmakers -- since "tea parties" are verboten. How would you do it?
If the answer is, it can't really be done, that's not quite satisfactory, now is it?
| 340 |
Claire Tue, Sep 1, 2009 2:42:48am |
re: #337 iceweasel
The Clinton surplus turned itself into a deficit after the stock bubble and 9-11, almost like magic! Clinton / Greenspan kept the bubble inflated as long as they possibly could, then let the air out after the election. They should have popped it 5 years earlier, but one must maintain one's legacy, after all.
| 341 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 3:06:00am |
re: #340 Claire
The Clinton surplus turned itself into a deficit after the stock bubble and 9-11, almost like magic! Clinton / Greenspan kept the bubble inflated as long as they possibly could, then let the air out after the election. They should have popped it 5 years earlier, but one must maintain one's legacy, after all.
Yes. The trillions of dollars spent on Iraq and Afghanistan had nothing to do with losing the surplus.
Neither did the Bush tax cuts.
Come on. Is it really so hard to admit the Bush admin was far from fiscally conservative?
Note: I'm not saying the Dems don't also spend like drunken sailors, but so did the Bush admin. As usual, both parties suck.
| 342 |
Drider Tue, Sep 1, 2009 3:53:11am |
It seems like some folks are just taking this code pink bait and just run with it.
So far I have read where people just go to these meetings and scream, they don't ask good questions.
Yup, thats code pink, just yell, make a statement and go to jail which has no resemblance to what is taking place at town hall meetings.
People "are" asking great questions, not everyone is able (by design in many cases) to ask their questions, they are pushed aside while the "bus in's" read their scripts but by all means, if you feel that this point in time is a good time to ask questions at these meetings then get up from the computer and "attend" or go the route of the Buckley Jr., Noonan, Will types and be living proof on how self proclaimed conservatives would be just as happy living in a "changed" America than what we all grew up in and that they have no effect in stopping this "change"..."even if they wanted to".
From what I gather at some of these "conservative"blog sites is that if you attend these meetings and show great displeasure in a vocal manner, when a politician spits in your eye then you are painted with pink colored tar, covered in shredded, soon to be worthless US currency and escorted out of town on an old piece of the broken pillar of Capitalism.
| 343 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 4:07:29am |
re: #342 Drider
From what I gather at some of these "conservative"blog sites is that if you attend these meetings and show great displeasure in a vocal manner, when a politician spits in your eye then you are painted with pink colored tar, covered in shredded, soon to be worthless US currency and escorted out of town on an old piece of the broken pillar of Capitalism.
Well, that certainly sounded like reasoned, well-balanced, substantive criticism without a shred of hyperbole.
| 344 |
Sharmuta Tue, Sep 1, 2009 4:16:38am |
re: #338 Edouard
Do you remember when folks would whine about the number of threads about vlaams belang? Sad to see you give in to that mentality. Just sayin'.
| 345 |
Drider Tue, Sep 1, 2009 4:16:54am |
re: #343 iceweasel
Well, that certainly sounded like reasoned, well-balanced, substantive criticism without a shred of hyperbole.
I'm guilty as charged but I couldn't resist.
I hope it didn't hurt our agenda.
| 346 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 4:24:40am |
re: #345 Drider
I'm guilty as charged but I couldn't resist.
I hope it didn't hurt our agenda.
Not sure what you mean by "our agenda" there.
It looked like you were claiming that all the screaming and brawling at townhalls is because of Code Pink (huh?).
It also looked like you were claiming that nothing odd is happening at these townhalls...except politicans refusing to answer reasonable questions asked in a polite way.
I don't object to "showing great displeasure in a vocal way."
I do object to people carrying weapons, posters describing health reform as a "final solution", people on Medicare crying about how they don't want gov't health care, and people repeating lies about Obama's birth certificate, people chanting slogans before the representative can answer a question, people shouting down the rep when he or she tries to answer, and people chasing representatives while chanting the pledge of allegiance (yes, that one is on youtube).
So: What do you mean by 'our agenda'? If you mean civil discourse, it looks to me like the people I mentioned abandoned that from the start-- and you ought to condemn them too.
| 348 |
FrogMarch Tue, Sep 1, 2009 5:45:34am |
re: #69 austin_blue
No. There is a generated groundswell by very powerful, special interest groups that have a put tremendous amounts of money to make it happen. This is not organic. It is manufactured.
Like all of the bussed-in Obama supporters?
| 349 |
Coracle Tue, Sep 1, 2009 5:49:02am |
Y'know, I understand how many here dislike Obama for his policies, for the way you see his attitude, or for any number of things. I share some of those misgivings, if not all. But to say "He doesn't like the US" or that he's actively trying to destroy the America we know and love is purest idiocy.
| 350 |
gregb Tue, Sep 1, 2009 5:57:58am |
re: #10 Racer X
On the news tonight they said the burned area is now larger than San Francisco and Las Vegas combined.
The smoke and cloud formations over Los Angeles from 40 miles away have been horrifyingly fascinating the past 4 days.
| 351 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 6:03:13am |
re: #349 Coracle
Y'know, I understand how many here dislike Obama for his policies, for the way you see his attitude, or for any number of things. I share some of those misgivings, if not all. But to say "He doesn't like the US" or that he's actively trying to destroy the America we know and love is purest idiocy.
hey, coracle.
It's not merely idiocy. It's the full flowering of the ugliest rhetoric we saw under the Bush admin, where democrats, antiwar protesters, and liberals were regularly called traitors, unamerican, treasonous, and accused of 'hating America'.
And when it comes to Obama, the charge that 'He hates America" most definitely comes with a heapin' side helpin' of "He isn't one of us". Nirtherism is one expression of that idea.
The old rhetoric has been super-sized, basically.
| 353 |
Coracle Tue, Sep 1, 2009 6:07:52am |
re: #351 iceweasel
The old rhetoric has been super-sized, basically.
I completely agree. But why is it here in LGF?
| 354 |
Drider Tue, Sep 1, 2009 6:08:02am |
re: #346 iceweasel
Not sure what you mean by "our agenda" there.
It looked like you were claiming that all the screaming and brawling at town halls is because of Code Pink (huh?).
It also looked like you were claiming that nothing odd is happening at these town halls...except politicians refusing to answer reasonable questions asked in a polite way.I don't object to "showing great displeasure in a vocal way."
I do object to people carrying weapons, posters describing health reform as a "final solution", people on Medicare crying about how they don't want govt health care, and people repeating lies about Obama's birth certificate, people chanting slogans before the representative can answer a question, people shouting down the rep when he or she tries to answer, and people chasing representatives while chanting the pledge of allegiance (yes, that one is on youtube).
So: What do you mean by 'our agenda'? If you mean civil discourse, it looks to me like the people I mentioned abandoned that from the start-- and you ought to condemn them too.
Iceweasle, by agenda I thought it was obvious...To stop the rush to destroy this Country, with not a trace of hyperbole intended.
To describe destroying the Country is simple.The government is doing their level best to put us so far into debt that we stand little to no chance of recovering from it, certainly not in yours or my lifetimes, now is that hyperbole, is the outcome of what Obama and cohorts relentless tact of spending "trillions" of dollars even debatable that it will destroy the Country as we know it. If your answer is yes, that it is debatable then you subscribe to living in a Country where all individual wealth, freedom and liberty is acceptable and we can come to websites and vent, bitch and moan.
The agenda seems simple(in my mind at least) being it is at least working and that is the people who attend these meetings, carry the final solution signs, yell out in unison when they hear the typical garbage from politicians, expose those in the higher levels of government as to who they really are and what their foreign beliefs and continue to ask question after question as they are doing now and keep it going until we can replace some of the trash holding office now...That is pretty much "my" agenda.
The we have what appears to be other people's agenda.
Living and dying on the power of the Krauthammer types (who's articles are usually a joy to read) who are absolutely ineffective in stopping the "Final Solution"(I couldn't resist again). These folks may do their best to discredit the angry town hall people by making comparisons, ever so slight of these people to Code Pink fanatics which puts those making the comparison, pretty much squarely in Code Pinks camp whether they like it or not, seems I hear this logic being touted more and more lately.
Frankly to sum up these people's agenda, God Bless em is that they don't really have an agenda, they will bitch and moan and in the end, follow wherever the powers that be will take us.
Now Iceweasle, I have stated what my agenda is, I would hope that people of like minds could agree to not agree on everything and still come up with an effective plan to stop this "change" and being there are effective ways of pulling this off from the town hall protesters and tea party people to wacky talk show hosts and even in some cases...blogs, the worst thing we could do is destroy the ammo we need to fight back with...IMHO.
| 355 |
kansas Tue, Sep 1, 2009 6:08:06am |
re: #351 iceweasel
hey, coracle.
It's not merely idiocy. It's the full flowering of the ugliest rhetoric we saw under the Bush admin, where democrats, antiwar protesters, and liberals were regularly called traitors, unamerican, treasonous, and accused of 'hating America'.
And when it comes to Obama, the charge that 'He hates America" most definitely comes with a heapin' side helpin' of "He isn't one of us". Nirtherism is one expression of that idea.
The old rhetoric has been super-sized, basically.
White House to shift efforts on civil rights
NYT: The Obama administration is planning to revive high-impact enforcement of civil rights against policies where statistics show that minorities fare disproportionately poorly.
You know, like giving loans to people who couldn't afford it, and
because we haven't stirred up enough shit already.
Robert Gibbs
| 356 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 6:16:57am |
re: #355 kansas
White House to shift efforts on civil rights
NYT: The Obama administration is planning to revive high-impact enforcement of civil rights against policies where statistics show that minorities fare disproportionately poorly.You know, like giving loans to people who couldn't afford it, and
because we haven't stirred up enough shit already.
Robert Gibbs
I need to see some links so I know what you're talking about. Normally I would know but I've been a bit out of the loop for real life reasons.
BTW, as a civil libertarian and a progressive I can say that it's laughable that the Obama admin is pretending to care about civil rights given that (virtually) every decision they've made involving civil liberties sucks. (As have some of their civil rights decisions thus far).
| 357 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 6:28:28am |
re: #354 Drider
Iceweasle, by agenda I thought it was obvious...To stop the rush to destroy this Country, with not a trace of hyperbole intended.
Neither Obama nor the Democrats nor the left wants to "destroy this country". That is the kind of hateful, irrational, extremist rhetoric rendering real discussion impossible.
I condemned it when the left did it in 2000 and after, and it's not looking any better to me when the right does it.
Living and dying on the power of the Krauthammer types (who's articles are usually a joy to read) who are absolutely ineffective in stopping the "Final Solution"(I couldn't resist again). These folks may do their best to discredit the angry town hall people by making comparisons, ever so slight of these people to Code Pink fanatics which puts those making the comparison, pretty much squarely in Code Pinks camp whether they like it or not, seems I hear this logic being touted more and more lately.
I'm sorry but I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to say here. All I can gather is that you think it's appropriate (and even accurate!) to refer to health reform as the 'Final Solution'. I may have misread you, and if so I apologise-- but I really can't understand what you're saying.
| 358 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 6:40:01am |
re: #353 Coracle
I completely agree. But why is it here in LGF?
I don't believe it represents the views of our host whatsoever. Or even most people at LGF.
It's troubling. I am really surprised it's here and it upsets me.
Crazy is everywhere, on both sides of the aisle for sure, and LGF is such a huge site there will always be some loon or other popping up.
I do think they get banned right away for hideous rhetoric, and the community is usually pretty quick in calling it out too..
You can find really vile things on HuffPo and Kos in comments too, and those sites are FAR slower to ban people or delete offensive comments. FAR slower than here.
I think it's the nature of the political blogosphere, to be honest. There will always be awful comments popping up. And LGF is still way better at policing and stomping such things out than any other place. IMO. By like a factor of 10 or more.
| 359 |
Drider Tue, Sep 1, 2009 6:48:41am |
Ice, once again, they are going to destroy the Country.
I didn't say they want to, I said they will if they succeed in jamming through everything they want.
With the health care and cap & trade alone , they would break the bank not to mention the natural draconian effect it will have on our civil liberties.
As a civil libertarian, if you can't see that then you are correct in that this conversation has run it's course.
| 360 |
Coracle Tue, Sep 1, 2009 7:07:43am |
re: #358 iceweasel
I'll accept that it's not truly representative of most people here, and certainly not representative of Charles. Overall, perhaps the incendiary rhetoric is less here than the lefty sites, but I see the same intensity of vehemence here, simply reflected on the other side of the political mirror from those sites. The passion that some here express in their personal dislike for Obama, Reid, Pelosi, you name the Democratic figure, and the party itself easily matches anything I saw coming from the left aimed at the right in the last 8 years. I see no righteous high ground or moral superiority on either side, yet both sides claim it, including here.
| 361 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 7:19:59am |
re: #360 Coracle
I'll accept that it's not truly representative of most people here, and certainly not representative of Charles. Overall, perhaps the incendiary rhetoric is less here than the lefty sites, but I see the same intensity of vehemence here, simply reflected on the other side of the political mirror from those sites. The passion that some here express in their personal dislike for Obama, Reid, Pelosi, you name the Democratic figure, and the party itself easily matches anything I saw coming from the left aimed at the right in the last 8 years. I see no righteous high ground or moral superiority on either side, yet both sides claim it, including here.
Coracle-- we completely agree. What's coming from the right as a whole is much worse than what the left was pumping out in 2000-2006-- primarily because Code Pink and other lunatics were never mainstreamed by the dems in the way that the GOP has been mainstreaming craziness.
That gets reflected here, too.
| 362 |
Ojoe Tue, Sep 1, 2009 7:25:51am |
Well Iceweasel & Coracle, this L & R un-civility to my mind means we need a viable center party, & one that has some standards of conduct.
Good morning all.
| 363 |
coquimbojoe Tue, Sep 1, 2009 7:29:33am |
I am very happy about the the screaming at the meetings. I am sure it is not the most productive, but the passion coming from people usually complacent is a good thing. What i hope the debate will do is reinvigorate people interest in how our government runs the country/screws us. This health care debate is a great place to start because it has such far reaching implications. For far too long we have been complacent in choosing our leaders. To me, the screaming is good, it is getting people's attention and spurring debate.
| 364 |
gregb Tue, Sep 1, 2009 8:11:43am |
re: #363 coquimbojoe
I am very happy about the the screaming at the meetings. I am sure it is not the most productive, but the passion coming from people usually complacent is a good thing.
re: #363 coquimbojoe
I think the feedback started out as reasoned debate, but when legitimate concerns were dismissed, ridiculed, and then actively undermined, I think people got a little upset.
All people want is a little intellectual honesty in politics. Is that asking so much?
| 365 |
coquimbojoe Tue, Sep 1, 2009 8:24:53am |
re: #364 gregb
I agree completely. Hopefully the passion will startle them into bhaving better - the politicians I mean.
| 366 |
Coracle Tue, Sep 1, 2009 9:04:11am |
re: #362 Ojoe
Well Iceweasel & Coracle, this L & R un-civility to my mind means we need a viable center party, & one that has some standards of conduct.
That would be a wonderful thing, Ojoe. It would take several election cycles, but if it could grow from the moderate center out in both directions It would be an eventual winner.
| 367 |
claire Tue, Sep 1, 2009 9:06:37am |
re: #341 iceweasel
I was speaking to the transition from surplus to deficit in 2001-2003 when only the "good" war was happening, which Clinton the Magnificent would have fought as well had he been in office at the time, BTW. Look at a graph of the deficit. In fact, I think Bush, et al spent like drunken sailors like the $$ were infinite and going to flow into the coffers forever on top of the Iraq war expenditure. The Iraq war wasn't in the grand scheme of things THAT expensive, relatively. We probably could have afforded the spending or the war, but not both. However, had Bush's tax cuts not happened, the deficit would have been a lot worse during that time. That's only counter-intuitive if you have been weaned on the "more taxes always result in more revenue forever" mantra ;-P I don't think you will find a lot of people here who were cheering on the deficit spending the last couple of years. There was a lot of WTF is going on here? But I can tell you that support for tax increases to reduce the deficit was non-existent. (Which is how is should be ,IMO)
| 368 |
Coracle Tue, Sep 1, 2009 9:07:17am |
re: #363 coquimbojoe
No. Screaming never helps in a meeting. Screaming is not dialog, and it doesn't lead to dialog.
| 369 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 1, 2009 9:07:53am |
| 370 |
Drider Tue, Sep 1, 2009 9:09:58am |
I'm really not trying to be a smart ass but what do you mean by intellectual honesty in politics?
| 371 |
Drider Tue, Sep 1, 2009 9:23:48am |
re: #369 Charles
"Final Solution?"
Have you lost your freaking mind?
Well Charles, I suppose that you could take the final solution line, which if used in conjunction with this health care and cap & trade debacles, then it is a perfect description.
If one would rather imply that this sign with final solution has anything remotely to have anything to do with say, genocide or the like then one would miss the message entirely.
People can look at the same thing and see it differently for whatever reason. I see a guy holding up a "Final Solution" sign and the stark reality that if that either of these two bills pass then it does become a final and irreversible solution for Socialists, which is basically power and control of the likes that "our" Country was never suppose to see given to politicians.
| 372 |
mfarmer1 Tue, Sep 1, 2009 9:38:50am |
Eight years of screaming at all things Bush did the job, right or wrong.
Six months of screaming at all things Obama is doing the job, right or wrong.
We can all complain about ugly rallies, ugly campaign commercials, ugly rhetoric, and ugly this and that, but such tactics work. Such is the state of our political and social demeanor these days.
Something has to give, because it doesn't seem like it can get any lower. Then again, we all know it will.
| 375 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 1, 2009 9:53:09am |
re: #371 Drider
So in other words, you're just fine with comparing a freaking HEALTH CARE bill with the Nazi Holocaust.
Lovely.
| 376 |
mfarmer1 Tue, Sep 1, 2009 10:18:22am |
re: #371 Drider
Dude, "The Final Solution" has a very strict definition in modern times and anyone using that phrase with an IQ at least teetering between two and three digits knows it.
It's simply indefensible to use it in a debate about healthcare, even in the context of a complete takeover of the entire healthcare system by a bunch of far-left extremist lunatics.
There's so much wrong with what the proponents of this so called "reform" are trying to sneak through that such tactics aren't necessary. I mean really now, it's a target rich environment they're offering. Almost every single part of their plan is a non-workable bureaucratic boondoggle full of government gobbledygook.
They guy with the sign had the right to display it and all of that , yada yada yada. But c'mon, equating nationalized healthcare to The Holocaust is well, even crazier than what he was protesting.
| 377 |
Drider Tue, Sep 1, 2009 10:33:07am |
re: #375 Charles
So in other words, you're just fine with comparing a freaking HEALTH CARE bill with the Nazi Holocaust.
Lovely.
I'm just fine with using an appropriate term for what will occur if they pass these bills, absolutely.I could even see the comparison's that could be made, as you point out and see it's validity in two extremely horrid events that will produce two extremely horrid consequences.
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, even if it's irritating at times.
And it was a "sign of the times" and I much prefer to focus on today and tomorrow instead of making connections of of a Nazi mantra, I mean you could point that similarity out if you wish, why you would is up to you I suppose.
I have also noticed here and there the connections this administration has with American communists as well as some comments that our current President has made that we're eerily similar to foreign Communist leaders of old, have I also lost my mind by considering these red flags and will I be torn down and painted Pink?
| 378 |
gregb Tue, Sep 1, 2009 10:36:22am |
re: #370 Drider
I'm really not trying to be a smart ass but what do you mean by intellectual honesty in politics?
Well, my favorite book is Jeanne Fahnestock and Marie Secor's "A Rhetoric of Argument". It's a complete taxonomy of social, tactical, and logical methods and techniques (and fallacies) that have existed over the years. It covers everything from wordings of casual statements to rhetorical verifications.
I think it goes a long way to explaining how proponents of opposing policies can no longer differentiate between an opinion and a fact, or why they can no longer understand what line of reasoning the "other side" is following. I call it "popping out". Similar to trying to explain something very technical to someone who thinks they can understand, they'll lose the plot along the way and then rely on familiar concepts and language.
| 380 |
Drider Tue, Sep 1, 2009 10:45:14am |
Wow, GregB, your way out my league bud.
All I want is that in 10 years, my daughter is given the same opportunities that we had, all the freedom and Liberty that she doesn't even realize that she has today and I see a high risk of it all slipping away.
I'll leave all the technical lingo to you.
| 381 |
wrenchwench Tue, Sep 1, 2009 11:03:00am |
re: #377 Drider
And it was a "sign of the times" and I much prefer to focus on today and tomorrow instead of making connections of of a Nazi mantra, I mean you could point that similarity out if you wish, why you would is up to you I suppose.
If you don't want connections to be made to a Nazi mantra, don't use one.
I hope that was not too technical for you.
| 382 |
Sharmuta Tue, Sep 1, 2009 11:03:48am |
re: #380 Drider
All I want is that in 10 years, my daughter is given the same opportunities that we had, all the freedom and Liberty that she doesn't even realize that she has today and I see a high risk of it all slipping away.
Just because Glenn Beck keeps saying this, doesn't mean it's true.
| 383 |
gregb Tue, Sep 1, 2009 11:10:07am |
re: #380 Drider
Wow, GregB, your way out my league bud.
All I want is that in 10 years, my daughter is given the same opportunities that we had, all the freedom and Liberty that she doesn't even realize that she has today and I see a high risk of it all slipping away.
I'll leave all the technical lingo to you.
Lol! I'm an engineer, so I over-analyze everything. I want the same for my sons, but the US has withstood bad presidents before. I tend to believe the system is pretty self-correcting.
| 384 |
Altermite Tue, Sep 1, 2009 11:15:06am |
re: #380 Drider
Wow, GregB, your way out my league bud.
All I want is that in 10 years, my daughter is given the same opportunities that we had, all the freedom and Liberty that she doesn't even realize that she has today and I see a high risk of it all slipping away.
I'll leave all the technical lingo to you.
Here's your martyr hat and suck-up kneepads.
/not very
| 385 |
doubter4444 Tue, Sep 1, 2009 11:32:55am |
re: #78 Edouard
Here's what I don't get. How do those of us who are frustrated with the economic naif in the White House, and the spendaholics on Capitol Hill get our voices heard if being polite appears no longer to work?
We object to bazillion-dollar governmental boondoggle after another, and we are entirely ignored if we object politely.
There are millions of people in America who are not "crazies" but have had it up to here with the oligarchical, let-them-eat-cake attitudes that this administration and these federal lawmakers have taken.
To avoid being seen as crazies, are we supposed simply to be meek about the fiscal destruction, egregious for the past few years, that has really gone into high gear in the last year?
Where do we go? How do we organize? If we are fed up, well and truly fed up for legitimate, practical reasons and we're not "crazy"?
It's my contention that the anger you see out there has been building for many years -- ordinary Americans not being listened to for a long, long time, until government "health care" became the straw that broke the back.
A lot of people are pissed. Really pissed. Mainstream, non-crazy, ordinary Americans whose jaws are dropping at America's leadership vacuum and its mismanagement in Washington.
Is it wrong to be so frustrated? Am I a "crazy"? Look, I'm not any "Paulbot". Yet if I raise my voice when I go see my congressman, because he just isn't paying attention, am I, too, to be mocked anyway, even at LGF for being a lunatic -- merely for being frustrated as hell and demanding that our lawmakers change course dramatically and fast, lest they really screw the fiscal pooch for America for a generation to come?
Did you get that word from Glen Beck?
You need to understand that many, many look at the "anger" you mention and wonder why it's so much, so fast, and where it might really be coming from.
I do not agree that it's been building for years.
If it is was, then why the anger when someone (Obama) is actually trying to do something about it?
You may personally detest what he is trying to do, but that's different from "years of anger" bursting forth.
Where was ANY of that anger when Cheney said "Deficits don't matter"?
When we had a major entitlement program pushed through without a way to pay for it?
I think many people feel scared with the economy going down and once storied companies claiming bankruptcy, and fear begets anger. I get that part.
But stoking those fears is irresponsible and turns normally intelligent people into slogan spouting caricature's.
And the Republican leadership is guilty of that.
I mean for Pete's sake, you have now Leaders of the Republican party defending the growth of Medicare and Medicaid entitlements FOREVER just to score points against the Democrats.
It's insane.
| 386 |
doubter4444 Tue, Sep 1, 2009 11:38:10am |
re: #33 Dark_Falcon
Hello, all. As it happens, I did not get to my congresscritter's town hall today. Multiple road closures due to accidents and construction forced me to take a taxi to work. The resulting expenditure meant that I did not have the funds needed for a taxi from the meeting.
I'm sorry you missed it, I am looking forward to someone reporting on what it's really like.
I'd like to get to mine, but it a phone call, I need visual stimulation!
good luck on the next one.
| 387 |
AZDave Tue, Sep 1, 2009 11:47:55am |
re: #8 pat
I must be missing something. I have seen Union thugs, left wing nuts, and racists attack older white and black Americans at these meetings. If the shrill voice of a 65 year old is a bit too much for the politicians, particularly the Dems, then maybe they can get a law passed that only Obama supporters and GOP Deconstructionists be allowed to speak.
Don't give these idiots any ideas!
| 388 |
doubter4444 Tue, Sep 1, 2009 11:54:41am |
re: #240 Dark_Falcon
1. The guard's reaction seemed to me to be one of someone who needed to enforce the rules without arguing with someone who only wants to create a problem. For all we know, the "Not anymore. its not" comment could have been a reference to the signholder's Alex Jones-level Bad Craziness. We don't fully understand the context.
2. Yes, If a sign attack George W and was being brought in, I'd support its removal. It would just as inflammatory, and just as wrong.
Bingo.
Lots of hypocrisy on this subject.
| 389 |
doubter4444 Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:03:08pm |
re: #371 Drider
Well Charles, I suppose that you could take the final solution line, which if used in conjunction with this health care and cap & trade debacles, then it is a perfect description.
If one would rather imply that this sign with final solution has anything remotely to have anything to do with say, genocide or the like then one would miss the message entirely.People can look at the same thing and see it differently for whatever reason. I see a guy holding up a "Final Solution" sign and the stark reality that if that either of these two bills pass then it does become a final and irreversible solution for Socialists, which is basically power and control of the likes that "our" Country was never suppose to see given to politicians.
That's just horse-shit equivocation.
Next you'll be telling me the swastika is simply an old Indian symbol that's been misused.
Dick.
| 390 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:06:32pm |
re: #377 Drider
I have also noticed here and there the connections this administration has with American communists as well as some comments that our current President has made that we're eerily similar to foreign Communist leaders of old, have I also lost my mind by considering these red flags and will I be torn down and painted Pink?
Oh this seekrit Kommie krap again?
Let's quote your own words with a slight adjustment, okay?
I much prefer to focus on today and tomorrow instead of making connections of a
NaziCommunist mantra, I mean you could point that similarity out if you wish, why you would is up to you I suppose.
The difference being that you are advocating the use of a Nazi mantra, and neither Obama nor the Democrats nor health care reform is in any way "Communist".
So you are 1) apparently incapable of understanding what words mean and 2) certainly incapable of applying your logical standards--such as they are-- consistently.
| 391 |
Land Shark Tue, Sep 1, 2009 12:23:14pm |
re: #390 iceweasel
With all due respect, I don't think it's quite so seekrit. After all the reading I've done on his influences, his ideals, his associations, his way of governing, his proposals, etc., I think a very logical case for Obama being a Commie can be made. I started calling him Comrade Obamarx before the election and I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise. He's just very good at lying and fooling a lot of people.
In other words, yeah, I think he's a Commie.
| 393 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Sep 1, 2009 3:08:14pm |
re: #391 Land Shark
With all due respect, I don't think it's quite so seekrit. After all the reading I've done on his influences, his ideals, his associations, his way of governing, his proposals, etc., I think a very logical case for Obama being a Commie can be made. I started calling him Comrade Obamarx before the election and I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise. He's just very good at lying and fooling a lot of people.
In other words, yeah, I think he's a Commie.
I think you don't know what a communist is, and you are completely wrong to call Obama one.
BTW, Joe McCarthy called. He'd like his wingnut smear back.
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