Anti-AGW Propaganda Shot Down Again

EnvironmentOctober 2009 • Views: 2,728

Time for an update on one of the latest claims by climate change deniers — that the “hockey stick” graph demonstrating dramatic global warming has been shown to be a “lie.”

Well, it turns out that there was some dishonesty involved here, but it wasn’t on the side of the climate scientists: Let the backpedalling begin.

The worst part of this misleading story: climate blogger Steve McIntyre claimed that tree ring data was withheld from him on purpose — but he had the raw data all along.

Read the whole thing; it’s an interesting look at how anti-AGW propagandists spin and distort and misrepresent. And it appears that the “hockey stick” is still unbroken.

(Hat tip: Tim Lambert.)

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154 comments

DaddyG Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:36:08am

Is it getting warm in here or is it just me?

Dark_Falcon Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:37:52am

Charles takes the hockey stick. He shoots, he scores!

Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:38:59am

Kanye West:

Yo Charles, I'm really happy for you, I'ma Let you finish, but Steve has one of the best videos of all time!

/Oh...Kanye is a tool...

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:39:15am

The Onion:

Obama To Enter Diplomatic Talks With Raging Wildfire

Baier Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:41:16am

Frankly, I think fresh water pollution is the greatest environmental threat right now.

filetandrelease Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:41:21am

Charles, have you addressed the missing data... yet?

Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:42:20am

re: #4 NJDhockeyfan

The Onion:

Obama To Enter Diplomatic Talks With Raging Wildfire

In the ticker...

"Flava Flav will offer analysis of troop levels in Afghanistan..."

BWAAHAAAHAAA!!!

The Sanity Inspector Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:42:27am

I remain chagrined that I lack the necessary grounding in statistics to follow this story as closely as it deserves.

bofhell Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:42:38am

re: #6 filetandrelease

Charles, have you addressed the missing data... yet?

Isn't it bad enough we have to worry about missing matter, now we have to worry about missing data?

reloadingisnotahobby Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:42:43am

re: #4 NJDhockeyfan

He'll need the practice for negotiations with the Asteriod in a few
years.../LIOL

Killgore Trout Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:42:46am

NYC's Cool New Backyard Farms: Growing More Than Just Produce

Vimeo

DaddyG Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:43:40am

re: #8 The Sanity Inspector

I remain chagrined that I lack the necessary grounding in statistics to follow this story as closely as it deserves.

That doesn't stop most of us.

(notice conspicuously missing sarc tag)

DaddyG Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:44:56am

Your pussy may get a tax break...

Killgore Trout Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:44:59am

Notes from a Lone Acre: 1 Dude. 1 Acre. Many Little Anecdotes.

Vimeo

CommonCents Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:45:16am

Frankly I could care less if gets 3 degress warmer or 3 degrees cooler. I played 36 holes yesterday in 42F. At that point it's just plain cold.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:46:33am

In 2007, the hockey stick originally produced by Mann et al, was verified by the NAtional Academy of Sciences.

More importantly, there is a certain fixated myopia on the part of the denier crowd. There are many other groups that have studied vast amounts of proxy data to reconstruct global temperatures from the distant past.

There is not one hockey stick graph produced by one team.

There is actually a hockey team.

This video actually gives the history quite nicely, and debunks the medieval warming period crap on the way.

Youtube Video

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:46:35am

re: #6 filetandrelease

Charles, have you addressed the missing data... yet?

No. I can't keep up with all the claims of climate change deniers -- there's a new phony outrage every week.

This looks like another one.

CommonCents Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:46:52am

re: #13 DaddyG

Your pussy may get a tax break...

Thank you Mr. Bond.
/

vxbush Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:47:10am

There is one thing that bothers me about the graphs shown: they all stop at 2000, when we are now at least eight years of data past that point. It would be nice to see how the graph looks including recent data.

Kragar Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:47:11am

Personally, I think its of greater concern coming up with methods to survive and prosper in a warmer environment than to try and dig in our heals and hope to stand against the tide. Nuke plants, desalinization, improved industrialization, and better use of living space versus arbitrary emission standards and hypothetical "green" solutions.

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:47:36am

re: #15 CommonCents

Frankly I could care less if gets 3 degress warmer or 3 degrees cooler. I played 36 holes yesterday in 42F. At that point it's just plain cold.

Well, that proves global warming is a hoax, all right.

/dripping

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:49:31am

re: #6 filetandrelease

Charles, have you addressed the missing data... yet?

Meanwhile, have you addressed the facts in the post above?

Pianobuff Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:50:07am

re: #19 vxbush

There is one thing that bothers me about the graphs shown: they all stop at 2000, when we are now at least eight years of data past that point. It would be nice to see how the graph looks including recent data.

Ludwig may have one in the equipment room.

RRFan Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:50:11am

I am glad to see that the true believers have refuted this. These things just keep popping up all over the place. Since you call the other side deniers I hope that you don't mind that I refer to you as true believers (Actually I do hope you mind) There are three good models that all predict global warming. Each model predicts a different amount and I believe all three results.
Until we get some unimpeachable data, this argument will continue without end.

filetandrelease Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:50:45am

re: #9 bofhell

Isn't it bad enough we have to worry about missing matter, now we have to worry about missing data?

Too many think it doesn't matter.

vxbush Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:51:28am

re: #24 RRFan

I am glad to see that the true believers have refuted this. These things just keep popping up all over the place. Since you call the other side deniers I hope that you don't mind that I refer to you as true believers (Actually I do hope you mind) There are three good models that all predict global warming. Each model predicts a different amount and I believe all three results.
Until we get some unimpeachable data, this argument will continue without end.

Ah, but that's the problem; no data will be considered unimpeachable, given that folks (not climate scientists) don't even agree on how to calculate a global mean for temperatures.

Baier Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:51:54am

re: #24 RRFan

I'll take your word for it. The math behind a climate model is beyond my abilities to evaluate as "good" or "bad".

bofhell Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:52:32am

re: #25 filetandrelease

Too many think it doesn't matter.

(Brace yourselves for obvious pun)

They're clearly anti-matter.

Dark_Falcon Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:52:53am

re: #24 RRFan

We've got plenty of data. You just don't the conclusions it supports. I've got to go to work, but I my mind is eased by the fact that Ludwig and his Troll Hammer are her to crush the likes of you. BBT

dimestorenovel Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:53:08am

re: #19 vxbush

I see that too.

DaddyG Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:53:38am

Unfortunately the science has been so badly politicized it will be difficult to get from the real data to good policy. I fear the unintended consequences of government programs designed to save us from ourselves.

Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:53:45am

re: #8 The Sanity Inspector

I remain chagrined that I lack the necessary grounding in statistics to follow this story as closely as it deserves.

Youtube Video

Wait til het gets to the 'meteorologist' at :53...kind of sums it up for me.

/But I do like to try...

Cato the Elder Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:54:02am

Interesting piece in today's Science section of the NYT.

A couple of respected physicists (who may also be crazy) are floating the idea that the delays and malfunctions at the CERN project (and the reason for the cancellation of the US Supercolliding Superconductor in 1993) are because the creation of a Higgs boson would be so bad for the universe that people from the future are coming back and sabotaging the installations.

It's a must-read.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:55:10am

re: #6 filetandrelease

Charles, have you addressed the missing data... yet?

I will happy to debunk this crap.

First of all, anything coming from the competitive enterprise institute has about the same level of veracity as anything coming from the discovery institute. They are after all, the same people.

Now as to this case, let's look honestly. I do not know the specific smear that this nonsense is referring to, however, if it was original climate data, from the first studies of AGW, I can make a very strong bet.

Data from back in the day was stored on tapes. People have been doing research on this topic for that long - in fact, back to the 50's.

Tapes are big and bulky.

Labs have finite size.

People then transfer the data to other, more modern means of storage.
Once data is transferred to better storage mediums, then who cares what happens to the tapes?

But let's get even more serious. This data was already published years and years ago. It is already out there. So what?

More importantly than that, do you think that there is only one data set available and that the only original data at all in the world on AGW was stored at this one facility?

No, this is outrageous bullshit from start to finish. It is also what you would expect from anti-science hacks like the ones you linked to.

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:56:14am

re: #31 DaddyG

Unfortunately the science has been so badly politicized it will be difficult to get from the real data to good policy. I fear the unintended consequences of government programs designed to save us from ourselves.

There are mountains of perfectly good data. The problem is that way too many people swallow the bogus claims of people like Patrick Michaels, who gave fraudulent testimony to Congress (for starters).

bofhell Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:57:23am

re: #33 Cato the Elder

Interesting piece in today's Science section of the NYT.

A couple of respected physicists (who may also be crazy) are floating the idea that the delays and malfunctions at the CERN project (and the reason for the cancellation of the US Supercolliding Superconductor in 1993) are because the creation of a Higgs boson would be so bad for the universe that people from the future are coming back and sabotaging the installations.

It's a must-read.

I for one welcome our new time-travelling overlords! Tom Baker is a definite improvement over the current lot! Now where's my sonic screwdriver...

dimestorenovel Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:57:29am

In the comments from the backpedalling article

4) What remains unexplained is why/how there can be a hockey stick in tree growth when there is no corresponding hockey stick in the local temperature measurements. That’s right — the LOCAL temperature record does not show a hockey stick. So we are supposed to think these trees are responding to some sort of global average temperature and not to local temperatures? Try thinking about that one for a while.

Is that true?
Then what is the use of the tree ring data?

Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:57:57am

re: #33 Cato the Elder

Interesting piece in today's Science section of ~~the~~ ~~NYT~~ Coast to Coast AM.

A couple of respected physicists (who may also be crazy) are floating the idea that the delays and malfunctions at the CERN project (and the reason for the cancellation of the US Supercolliding Superconductor in 1993) are because the creation of a Higgs boson would be so bad for the universe that people from the future are coming back and sabotaging the installations.

It's a must-read.

FTFY...right?

Honorary Yooper Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:58:16am

re: #33 Cato the Elder

Interesting piece in today's Science section of the NYT.

A couple of respected physicists (who may also be crazy) are floating the idea that the delays and malfunctions at the CERN project (and the reason for the cancellation of the US Supercolliding Superconductor in 1993) are because the creation of a Higgs boson would be so bad for the universe that people from the future are coming back and sabotaging the installations.

It's a must-read.

Is the Doctor involved somehow?

Baier Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:58:48am

re: #31 DaddyG

Unfortunately the science has been so badly politicized it will be difficult to get from the real data to good policy. I fear the unintended consequences of government programs designed to save us from ourselves.

Agreed. There has been so much extremist harping and bullshit from this issue I don't even know what is what. Plus the science behind this is so complex, I wouldn't know if was valid or not. I abhor "black box" conclusions. I just have to take this issue on trust, and I trust scientists, not hippies or cult members.

Cato the Elder Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:58:52am

re: #38 Oh no...Sand People!

FTFY...right?

Huh?

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:58:57am

re: #34 LudwigVanQuixote

No, this is outrageous bullshit from start to finish. It is also what you would expect from anti-science hacks like the ones you linked to.

Patrick Michaels is notorious for coming up with one bogus claim after another.

More info on Patrick J. Michaels.

Michaels is Editor of the World Climate Report, a blog published by New Hope Environmental Services, "an advocacy science consulting firm"[1] he founded and runs. In an affidavit in a Vermont court case, Michaels described the "mission" of the firm as being to "publicize findings on climate change and scientific and social perspectives that may not otherwise appear in the popular literature or media. This entails both response research and public commentary."[2] In effect, New Hope Environmental Services is a PR firm.

Michaels' firm does not disclose who its clients are, but leaked documents have revealed that several were power utilities which operate coal power stations. On a 2007 academic CV, Michaels disclosed that prior to creating his firm he had received funding from the Edison Electric Institute and the Western Fuels Association. He has also been a frequent speaker with leading coal and energy companies as well as coal and other industry lobby groups.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:59:10am

re: #19 vxbush

There is one thing that bothers me about the graphs shown: they all stop at 2000, when we are now at least eight years of data past that point. It would be nice to see how the graph looks including recent data.

No problem! Ohhh and here is a special treat because you will actually understand the math!

Image: ar4-fig-3-6.gif
[Link: www.ncdc.noaa.gov...]

Here is the mathematical treat... you will particularly like the mathematical appendix to the paper.

[Link: www.pnas.org...]

MinisterO Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:59:20am

What is these guys' obsession with "falsifying" the hockey stick chart? There are at least a dozen different temperature reconstructions going back 1000 years and they all show the same hockey stick shape.

spoosmith Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:59:29am

re: #33 Cato the Elder

Cato - do you have the link?

iceweasel Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:00:11am

re: #36 bofhell

I for one welcome our new time-travelling overlords! Tom Baker is a definite improvement over the current lot! Now where's my sonic screwdriver...

All Dr Who references must be updinged by me. That is all.

CommonCents Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:00:30am

I was watching a special on TV this weekend (probably Discovery but not sure) about the effects of asteroid impacts on Earth. Since we are comparing millenia of data, and the "hockey stick" graph shows an upturn right around the 1900 mark that hasn't really stopped increasing, could the 1908 Siberian asteroid hit be the trigger for this period of warming and the lasting effects of that historic event haven't quite died off yet?

Is it also coincidence that most of the major underwater earthquakes are happening on the opposite end of tectonic plate that includes Siberia?(Indonesia/Thailand are at the southern edge of the Eurasian plate)

Imagine dropping a rock on one edge of a dinner plate, what happens to the other side of the plate. Those shifting under water plates expose fissures from which heat below the surface of the ocean escapes into the water thus warming the pacific which, in some studies, is a driver of surface temps.

{Just some random thoughts from a sports fan}

Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:00:41am

re: #41 Cato the Elder

I put a 'strike' through NYT and added "Coast to Coast AM"...seemed a more fitting 'media' for that type of topic...

Kosh's Shadow Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:00:44am

re: #33 Cato the Elder

Interesting piece in today's Science section of the NYT.

A couple of respected physicists (who may also be crazy) are floating the idea that the delays and malfunctions at the CERN project (and the reason for the cancellation of the US Supercolliding Superconductor in 1993) are because the creation of a Higgs boson would be so bad for the universe that people from the future are coming back and sabotaging the installations.

It's a must-read.

Well, if it was so bad, how could the people exist in the future to create time travel? And by stopping it, they wouldn't exist to come back and sabotage the device.
Unless the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is correct, in which case, in some universes, they succeed, but they still exist because they failed in other universes.

Since when did the science section of the NYT become the Onion?

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:01:02am

re: #44 MinisterO

What is these guys' obsession with "falsifying" the hockey stick chart? There are at least a dozen different temperature reconstructions going back 1000 years and they all show the same hockey stick shape.

A lot of AGW theorizing is supposedly built on the original study by Mann et al. First, this is a false assumption on the deniers' part; second, Mann's is not the only data set out there. But many deniers feel that falsifying this particular graph would score a significant victory in their quest to undermine the validity of the data.

Kosh's Shadow Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:01:10am

re: #39 Honorary Yooper

Is the Doctor involved somehow?

I believe a 1960 London Police box was, in fact, sighted in the area.
///

wrenchwench Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:01:29am

re: #21 Charles

Well, that proves global warming is a hoax, all right.

/dripping

Great. Now it's cold and raining!

vxbush Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:02:35am

re: #43 LudwigVanQuixote

No problem! Ohhh and here is a special treat because you will actually understand the math!

[Link: www.ncdc.noaa.gov...]
[Link: www.ncdc.noaa.gov...]

Here is the mathematical treat... you will particularly like the mathematical appendix to the paper.

[Link: www.pnas.org...]

Formulas! Oh, joy. This I have to read.

filetandrelease Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:02:43am

re: #22 Charles

Meanwhile, have you addressed the facts in the post above?

I have been following this "dispute" here, and it seems pretty clear cut that those who do not believe in AGW were obfuscating the facts in their effort to make a point.

As you have pointed out in the past, these tactics, used by both sides on occasion, make this issue difficult to analyze.

Pianobuff Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:02:55am

re: #49 Kosh's Shadow

Well, if it was so bad, how could the people exist in the future to create time travel? And by stopping it, they wouldn't exist to come back and sabotage the device.
Unless the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is correct, in which case, in some universes, they succeed, but they still exist because they failed in other universes.

Since when did the science section of the NYT become the Onion?

If Arnold is identified as one of the returnees to the present, I'm worried.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:03:19am

re: #26 vxbush

Ah, but that's the problem; no data will be considered unimpeachable, given that folks (not climate scientists) don't even agree on how to calculate a global mean for temperatures.

Calculating the global mean is frankly only a very coarse measure and not the point.

First off, most papers do agree on how to calculate it, they average over grids, second of all, in the context of your complaint, who cares?

What is more important is looking at the changing climate patterns, the overall trends and the nature of the feedbacks.

filetandrelease Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:03:29am

re: #28 bofhell

(Brace yourselves for obvious pun)

They're clearly anti-matter.

LOL

astronmr20 Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:04:14am

...so why wasn't the other data published and included originally?

Baier Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:04:29am

re: #56 LudwigVanQuixote

Calculating the global mean is frankly only a very coarse measure and not the point.

First off, most papers do agree on how to calculate it, they average over grids, second of all, in the context of your complaint, who cares?

What is more important is looking at the changing climate patterns, the overall trends and the nature of the feedbacks.

Would it matter as long as the method for calculating the global temp mean was consistent?

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:04:51am

re: #42 Charles

We should put together a list of the more notable deniers and their various associations. I wonder if people would be as keen to believe them if they realized that these are the same folks who peddled that cigarettes aren't bad for you and that ID is science.

vxbush Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:05:34am

re: #56 LudwigVanQuixote

Calculating the global mean is frankly only a very coarse measure and not the point.

First off, most papers do agree on how to calculate it, they average over grids, second of all, in the context of your complaint, who cares?

What is more important is looking at the changing climate patterns, the overall trends and the nature of the feedbacks.

But the person I was quoting, RRFan, was hoping that we could get unimpeachable data that would get rid of all the dissension. I was noting that wasn't possible. I was saying nothing about the science itself, merely the state of how people will grab anything they can to argue against AGW.

Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:06:39am

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

We should put together a list of the more notable deniers and their various associations. I wonder if people would be as keen to believe them if they realized that these are the same folks who peddled that cigarettes aren't bad for you and that ID is science.

It would help people like me...make it a 'pink highlight' at the top of the page. Getting confused which people are verboten and which are legit. Throw in the names of the D.I. while you are at it.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:06:59am

re: #59 Baier

Would it matter as long as the method for calculating the global temp mean was consistent?

Exactly. They all pretty much do it the same way.

However, quibbling about it is really not the point. Average temperature is just that, something which is globally averaged. It is a sort of first reference point for looking at the real effects - as in at this temperature we expect these currents to shift this way or that way.

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:08:19am

re: #54 filetandrelease

I have been following this "dispute" here, and it seems pretty clear cut that those who do not believe in AGW were obfuscating the facts in their effort to make a point.

Another word for "obfuscating the facts in an effort to make a point" is "lying."

As you have pointed out in the past, these tactics, used by both sides on occasion, make this issue difficult to analyze.

And as I've also pointed out, the vast majority of the bogus claims come from the anti-AGW side.

Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:08:33am

re: #36 bofhell

I for one welcome our new time-travelling overlords! Tom Baker is a definite improvement over the current lot! Now where's my sonic screwdriver...

Aww, Really? I actually really like Eccleston and Tennant. Of course I love the new BSG versus the '78 series too. Mind you I loved Baker and Peter Davidson too, but the age old question that must be asked, who was your favorite assistant?

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:08:59am

re: #62 Oh no...Sand People!

It would help people like me...make it a 'pink highlight' at the top of the page. Getting confused which people are verboten and which are legit. Throw in the names of the D.I. while you are at it.

Well straight up, Mr. Watt's up with that, is a Fox weather man. He would be massively full of shit.

Anything that comes from a group with a name like Heritage or Freedom Institute or Competitive Enterprise, is a pretty dead give away as well.

Kosh's Shadow Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:11:23am

re: #55 Pianobuff

If Arnold is identified as one of the returnees to the present, I'm worried.

Or Bruce Willis

DaddyG Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:11:40am

Are the trends significantly out of line given past cycles (looking at data in the thousands of years not just decades)?

Anyone who can answer this for me without delving into personality disputes would be much appreciated.

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:12:16am

One of the main climate denial propaganda organizations, the Heartland Institute, is directly tied to the tobacco industry. And before they started trying to confuse the public about global warming, they did their best to confuse the public about the health risks of tobacco.

These are not good people, and they do not have the best interests of the country (or the world) in mind. They're industry shills, and they're using deliberately deceptive tactics.

RRFan Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:13:40am

OK
Lets take a different approach.
How many people will die due to global warming?
How many people will die due to combating global warming?

MinisterO Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:14:48am

re: #50 thedopefishlives

A lot of AGW theorizing is supposedly built on the original study by Mann et al. First, this is a false assumption on the deniers' part; second, Mann's is not the only data set out there. But many deniers feel that falsifying this particular graph would score a significant victory in their quest to undermine the validity of the data.

Some of the deniers are upset that reconstructions show the Medieval Warming Period was a local phenomenon, and that the global temperature was not 2C (or variously 3C or 4C or 9C) warmer than the present. It is one of their favorite talking points and they won't let go easily.

Still, it's hard to avoid the suspicion that the deniers' real goal is simply to muddy the waters.

iceweasel Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:15:19am

OT-- apologies. Has this been noticed?

The GOP unveiled its new website today.

Michael Steele's blog is titled "What Up?"

And the page for future leaders of the GOP? Blank until a few minutes ago.

Now they've filled it in with some hilarious filler text.

face:palm

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:16:00am

re: #69 Charles

Jeff Megall: Sony has a futuristic sci-fi movie they're looking to make.
Nick Naylor: Cigarettes in space?
Jeff Megall: It's the final frontier, Nick.
Nick Naylor: But wouldn't they blow up in an all oxygen environment?
Jeff Megall: Probably. But it's an easy fix. One line of dialogue. 'Thank God we invented the... you know, whatever device.'

-From "Thank You For Smoking"

Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:16:43am

OT:

Chris Matthews

"CHRIS MATTHEWS: You guys see Live and Let Die, the great Bond film with Yaphet Kotto as the bad guy, Mr. Big? In the end they jam a big CO2 pellet in his face and he blew up. I have to tell you, Rush Limbaugh is looking more and more like Mr. Big, and at some point somebody’s going to jam a CO2 pellet into his head and he’s going to explode like a giant blimp. That day may come. Not yet. But we’ll be there to watch. I think he’s Mr. Big, I think Yaphet Kotto. Are you watching, Rush?"

Hmmm...advocating assassination?

Sam N Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:17:24am

re: #24 RRFan

I am glad to see that the true believers have refuted this. These things just keep popping up all over the place.

And since these anti-AGW items that keep 'popping up' are consistently refuted for being irrelevant, cherry-picked, or out-right lies, I would have hoped you would be making some inferences about the reliability of these anti-AGW sources.

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:17:42am

re: #72 iceweasel

I was just putting together a post about the "What Up?" blog. It's pretty pathetic.

The GOP website also violates one of the cardinal rules of web design -- web pages should never make sound without the visitor's consent. The GOP site has a little Michael Steele who comes walking out and starts talking.

Really really lame.

RogueOne Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:17:58am

Reading the article took me to this article:
[Link: www.climateaudit.org...]

I enjoyed the debates in the comments of both sites but the only thing I could really walk away with is they both seem to be cherry picking their data, something Biffa openly admits hence the "divergence" factor. On a side note I'm still trying to figure out how using tree rings (cherry picked or otherwise) proves ground temperature without taking into consideration every other aspect of tree growth, i.e. rainfall, sunlight, and the dreaded CO2.

/6...and the countdown continues...

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:19:14am

re: #69 Charles

Heartland Institute had a fallen scientist by the name of Seitz as one fo it's biggest players. Seitz was very clear that he was in it for the money and he used his reputation completely to sell out. He would lie and obfuscate science, along with another charlatan by the name of Singer for hire.

They essentially wrote the play book for denialism.

They started by working for the tobacco companies.

To say that these are evil men who completely abandoned their responsibilities as scientists would be a gross understatement.

They willfully lied and distorted to the harm of millions, for personal profits and brought down the legitimacy of science as a whole by generating propaganda and false controversy.

I made a point earlier that convincing someone, by lying to them, on your authority as an authority, to do something that will get them killed is a form of murder.

Youtube Video

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:19:24am

re: #76 Charles

I was just putting together a post about the "What Up?" blog. It's pretty pathetic.

The GOP website also violates one of the cardinal rules of web design -- web pages should never make sound without the visitor's consent. The GOP site has a little Michael Steel who comes walking out and starts talking.

Really really lame.

That's one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard of. The RNC seems to have regressed to the 1990's in terms of Web design. Please, people, The Time Cube is not an appropriate example of how to build a web page.

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:19:26am

re: #77 RogueOne

More BS from the website that started flinging the BS in the first place.

Cato the Elder Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:19:55am

re: #45 spoosmith

Cato - do you have the link?

The Collider, the Particle, and a Theory About Fate

iceweasel Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:21:05am

re: #76 Charles

I was just putting together a post about the "What Up?" blog. It's pretty pathetic.

The GOP website also violates one of the cardinal rules of web design -- web pages should never make sound without the visitor's consent. The GOP site has a little Michael Steel who comes walking out and starts talking.

Really really lame.

It's terrible. How is anyone supposed to visit that from work? It's awful. Can't they afford better web design? And how could they possibly take it live before filling in that "future leaders" page? The text they've thrown up there is almost as bad as having left it blank in the first place.
And that's not the only howler:

New RNC Website Claims Jackie Robinson As “GOP Hero” — But He Was Indy Who Condemned GOP’s Racial Tactics

DaddyG Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:21:07am

Any recommendations for good non-politicized layman level AGW information?

bosforus Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:21:19am

re: #72 iceweasel

Database Error: Unable to connect to your database. Your database appears to be turned off or the database connection settings in your config file are not correct. Please contact your hosting provider if the problem persists.

Help! Someone tell me how to turn on my database!
HA HA HA
What a joke.

Truth Stick Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:21:43am

re: #33 Cato the Elder

Interesting piece in today's Science section of the NYT.

A couple of respected physicists (who may also be crazy) are floating the idea that the delays and malfunctions at the CERN project (and the reason for the cancellation of the US Supercolliding Superconductor in 1993) are because the creation of a Higgs boson would be so bad for the universe that people from the future are coming back and sabotaging the installations.

It's a must-read.

Those damn Goobacks

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:22:15am

re: #77 RogueOne

No one is cherry picking anything on the side of the science. That is part of what peer review is all about.

There is also such a basic and easy to understand story here that I wonder how anyone could really doubt it.

Please take the time to look at the real science.

Here is a great site.

[Link: earthguide.ucsd.edu...]

DaddyG Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:22:16am

That's what the GOP gets for hiring the former white house web security guy. /

Cato the Elder Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:22:52am

re: #70 RRFan

OK
Lets take a different approach.
How many people will die due to global warming?
How many people will die due to combating global warming?

How could you possibly expect to figure that out?

dimestorenovel Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:22:55am

re: #77 RogueOne

What countdown? And I agree with you. How closely does the tree data correlate with surface temperature? I suppose I should google it.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:22:58am

re: #83 DaddyG

Any recommendations for good non-politicized layman level AGW information?

This is a full, freshman level course from UCSD.

It is completely kosher and covers pretty much everything.

[Link: earthguide.ucsd.edu...]

Jetpilot1101 Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:23:00am

The debate shouldn't be about "if humans are causing climate change", that ship has pretty much sailed. The debate should revolve around how much climate change we are causing and what we should do about it. Regardless of the outcomes, we should all strive to conserve as best we can and take care of our planet because last time I checked, it's the only home we have.

bosforus Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:23:25am

re: #76 Charles

I was just putting together a post about the "What Up?" blog. It's pretty pathetic.

The GOP website also violates one of the cardinal rules of web design -- web pages should never make sound without the visitor's consent. The GOP site has a little Michael Steele who comes walking out and starts talking.

Really really lame.

He's probably just trying to get you to lower your mortgage rate. Does he dance as well?
/

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:24:07am

re: #82 iceweasel

It's terrible. How is anyone supposed to visit that from work? It's awful. Can't they afford better web design? And how could they possibly take it live before filling in that "future leaders" page? The text they've thrown up there is almost as bad as having left it blank in the first place.
And that's not the only howler:

New RNC Website Claims Jackie Robinson As “GOP Hero” — But He Was Indy Who Condemned GOP’s Racial Tactics

He remember, the GOP is the party of Lincoln... we'll forget all the Klan types who joined after the Dems actually fought for civil rights in teh sixties.

bosforus Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:24:52am

Maybe I can win an Xbox at the GOP website, too. Preferably by slapping a sumo wrestler's belly in a flash banner.

avanti Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:26:17am

re: #91 Jetpilot1101

The debate shouldn't be about "if humans are causing climate change", that ship has pretty much sailed. The debate should revolve around how much climate change we are causing and what we should do about it. Regardless of the outcomes, we should all strive to conserve as best we can and take care of our planet because last time I checked, it's the only home we have.

You nailed my opinion in a short and sweet post, dead on.

DaddyG Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:26:31am

re: #90 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks for the link.

RogueOne Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:26:57am

re: #80 Charles

Actually, I got it from a link posted in the post you originally linked...

[Link: delayedoscillator.wordpress.com...]

ointmentfly Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:27:23am

re: #47 CommonCents

You mean molten rock heating the oceans and causing global warming? With the teperature of around 3500 degrees, I just can't see how molten rock in the mantle could cause that //. See, Al Gore is mostly fat and hot air and can't get any deeper than about 5' before getting tired so the earths crust / ocean depth ideas are mostly that - ideas. Besides, what are we going to do, cap and trade molten lava? Where is the political power in that?

RogueOne Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:28:19am

re: #89 dimestorenovel

sorry, it was something I carried over from the overnight thread, my countdown to getting my dinger...which now stands at 4 (I'm getting excited)

100

Racer X Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:28:30am

re: #81 Cato the Elder

The Collider, the Particle, and a Theory About Fate

Fark me!

I knew it!

101

DaddyG Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:29:13am

re: #99 RogueOne

sorry, it was something I carried over from the overnight thread, my countdown to getting my dinger...which now stands at 4 (I'm getting excited)

That's a pretty small dinger. You sure you want to get excited about that? /

102

dimestorenovel Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:29:35am

re: #99 RogueOne

Dinger? I'm so confused.

103

bratwurst Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:30:02am

re: #76 Charles

The GOP site has a little Michael Steel who comes walking out and starts talking.

Are we 100% sure that is not really his actual size?

104

RogueOne Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:30:47am

re: #101 DaddyG

A guy has to start somewhere

/+1 manual ding for ya

105

iceweasel Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:31:03am

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

He remember, the GOP is the party of Lincoln... we'll forget all the Klan types who joined after the Dems actually fought for civil rights in teh sixties.

Well, the reason claiming Jackie Robinson as a hero of the GOP is especially laughable is this:

It’s true that Robinson campaigned for Nixon and Rockefeller. But that’s only a small part of the story. Robinson actually identified himself as a “registered independent,” according to “Jackie Robinson: A Biography,” by Arnold Rampersad. That book, which did acknowledge his support of Republicans, quoted Robinson, speaking in 1959, this way:

“I guess you’d call me an independent since I’ve never identified myself with one party or another in politics.” He was, in fact, a registered independent. But already Robinson had shown a clear disposition to support Republicans, and in particular Nixon.

What’s more, Robinson was appalled by what the Republican party had become in 1964, when Barry Goldwater won the nomination over Rockefeller. In his autobiography he described his reaction to the that year’s GOP convention as follows::

That convention was one of the most unforgettable and frightening experiences of my life. The hatred I saw was unique to me because it was hatred directed against a white man. It embodied a revulsion for all he stood for, including his enlightened attitude towards black people.

A new breed of Republicans had taken over the GOP. As I watched this steamroller operation in San Francisco, I had a better understanding of how it must have felt to be a Jew in Hitler’s Germany.

This quote is already being rolled out by liberal bloggers. It's only going to get worse. They should have just cut to the chase and registered the domain "gopfailblog".

106

Honorary Yooper Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:31:05am

re: #102 dimestorenovel

Dinger? I'm so confused.

Charles now has it that one must post a minimum of 50 comments before one is allowed to ding posts up or down. It is to cut down on the stealth dinger trolls.

107

JohnAdams Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:31:30am

Can we at least agree that more research is needed before the WORST Congress in the history of the body passes a massive job-crushing tax-popping "Climate Bill" in the middle of the worst recession of the last 50 years?

108

lurking faith Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:31:33am

re: #13 DaddyG

Your pussy may get a tax break...

Dang; I shoulda saved all those PetSmart receipts!

109

Cato the Elder Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:31:35am

re: #76 Charles

I was just putting together a post about the "What Up?" blog. It's pretty pathetic.

The GOP website also violates one of the cardinal rules of web design -- web pages should never make sound without the visitor's consent. The GOP site has a little Michael Steele who comes walking out and starts talking.

Really really lame.

Is there spinning shit? Because the kind of web designer who lets a page start yakking at you without a click is usually the same guy who thinks lots of spinning shit makes for a fun read...

110

Diamond Bullet Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:31:39am

re: #33 Cato the Elder

Interesting piece in today's Science section of the NYT.

A couple of respected physicists (who may also be crazy) are floating the idea that the delays and malfunctions at the CERN project (and the reason for the cancellation of the US Supercolliding Superconductor in 1993) are because the creation of a Higgs boson would be so bad for the universe that people from the future are coming back and sabotaging the installations.

It's a must-read.

Great find -- although the article utterly fails to address why people from the future did not prevent Britney Spears (or the more chilling alternative, namely that they DID prevent someone who was even worse).

111

Walter L. Newton Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:31:55am

re: #103 bratwurst

Are we 100% sure that is not really his actual size?

hahahahahaha... racist.

112

Sam N Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:31:57am

re: #88 Cato the Elder

And it seems like a disingenuous question. If RRfan can't even agree on something with a relatively solid body of evidence, how can we even expect to have a fruitful discussion about something that has been studied far less rigorously.

113

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:32:22am

re: #107 JohnAdams

Can we at least agree that more research is needed before the WORST Congress in the history of the body passes a massive job-crushing tax-popping "Climate Bill" in the middle of the worst recession of the last 50 years?

NO, because that research was already done.

114

Reginald Perrin Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:33:43am

re: #33 Cato the Elder

A couple of respected physicists (who may also be crazy) are floating the idea that the delays and malfunctions at the CERN project (and the reason for the cancellation of the US Supercolliding Superconductor in 1993) are because the creation of a Higgs boson would be so bad for the universe that people from the future are coming back and sabotaging the installations.

That is a crock of crap, it only happened once and didn't have anything to do with sabotaging the supercolliding superconductor.
Ford and Xaphod had a few too many Intergalactic Gargle-Blasters and decided to bet on electron races, which resulted in permanent damage to the space time continuum.
/

115

Walter L. Newton Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:34:20am

re: #113 LudwigVanQuixote

NO, because that research was already done.

Just curious, this is not a AGW question, I don't argue that, but if cap and trade passes, will you benefit in your job or financially in some way?

116

sattv4u2 Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:34:41am

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

He remember, the GOP is the party of Lincoln... we'll forget all the Klan types who joined after the Dems actually fought for civil rights in teh sixties.

You may want to do some research on the actual vote for the Civil Rights legislation circa 1964
iirc, a larger percentage of Repubs voted FOR it than Dems in both houses.

117

dimestorenovel Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:35:30am

re: #106 Honorary Yooper

Yoop - Oh. How do you know how many comments you have made? Am I dingable?

118

filetandrelease Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:35:57am

re: #107 JohnAdams

Can we at least agree that more research is needed before the WORST Congress in the history of the body passes a massive job-crushing tax-popping "Climate Bill" in the middle of the worst recession of the last 50 years?

I agree completely, at the very least more research needs to be done in the area of just what is we need to do. As opposed to what will makes us feel better.

119

JohnAdams Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:36:18am

re: #113 LudwigVanQuixote

NO, because that research was already done.

For you to claim that the research is done convinces me even more that people like you are driven by a religious fervor and closed-mindedness. I hope you're building your windmills fast enough.

120

sattv4u2 Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:39:47am

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #116 sattv4u2

You may want to do some research on the actual vote for the Civil Rights legislation circa 1964
iirc, a larger percentage of Repubs voted FOR it than Dems in both houses.

Georgia Democrat Richard Russell offered the final arguments in opposition. Minority Leader Everett Dirksen, who had enlisted the Republican votes that made cloture a realistic option, spoke for the proponents with his customary eloquence

121

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:43:39am

re: #114 Reginald Perrin

re: #33 Cato the Elder

Mebst! Do not reveal the secrets of Remulak!

The reality is that once your species discovers the Higgs, you will have access to saucer technology of your own.

You are not yet ready for space.

Consider the very honorable, usually peaceful, yet extremely lawful Vallharngonese. Their entire culture revolves around speaking truths without distortions.

If a political leader were to lie on their worlds, that unfortunate soul would have seven of it's nine tentacles ripped out and then three of it's four mouths surgically sealed.

Exactly what would happen to your race when they met you and heard of Beck? Neutron death cannons are real. Orbital bombardment sucks.

It is for your own good, we keep the Higgs from you.

122

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:45:18am

re: #115 Walter L. Newton

Just curious, this is not a AGW question, I don't argue that, but if cap and trade passes, will you benefit in your job or financially in some way?

No not at all.

I am not paid by any political group and cap and trade is a purely political move.

Further, I am opposed to the cap and trade bill, particularly as it presently stands because it will not work, and those parts that might have helped have been castrated into impotence.

123

Kosh's Shadow Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:45:54am

re: #121 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #33 Cato the Elder

Mebst! Do not reveal the secrets of Remulak!

The reality is that once your species discovers the Higgs, you will have access to saucer technology of your own.

You are not yet ready for space.

Consider the very honorable, usually peaceful, yet extremely lawful Vallharngonese. Their entire culture revolves around speaking truths without distortions.

If a political leader were to lie on their worlds, that unfortunate soul would have seven of it's nine tentacles ripped out and then three of it's four mouths surgically sealed.

Exactly what would happen to your race when they met you and heard of Beck? Neutron death cannons are real. Orbital bombardment sucks.

It is for your own good, we keep the Higgs from you.

Are they related to the Thermians from the Klaatu Nebula?

124

Walter L. Newton Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:48:58am

re: #122 LudwigVanQuixote

No not at all.

I am not paid by any political group and cap and trade is a purely political move.

Further, I am opposed to the cap and trade bill, particularly as it presently stands because it will not work, and those parts that might have helped have been castrated into impotence.

Thanks.

125

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 10:49:16am

re: #119 JohnAdams

For you to claim that the research is done convinces me even more that people like you are driven by a religious fervor and closed-mindedness. I hope you're building your windmills fast enough.

For you to claim it has not been done shows that the only religious fervor is your own.

We have over thirty years of dedicated research into this field by tens of thousands of researchers. It all says the same story.

Since you are new here, I will mention that I am actually a professional physicist and that I work in a closely related field. I have been avidly following this topic for many years now and the source of my claim is understanding hundreds of actual peer reviewed papers.

You are only denying the realities of the science.

We know what we know.

Please look at this link for the basic story and read it.

[Link: earthguide.ucsd.edu...]

It is a good introduction and it is very thorough.

126

Danny Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:01:11am

Wonder if there's any fish in that lake...

127

Tom on the Rez Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:01:43am

Ludwig:
There is no peer review without the original data. I won't become a believer until the conclusions can be reproduced by someone else. Is everything this Michaels guy writes in this National Review article a lie?

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

128

sattv4u2 Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:03:25am

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

He remember, the GOP is the party of Lincoln... we'll forget all the Klan types who joined after the Dems actually fought for civil rights in teh sixties.

Found it

House vote (Civil Rights Legislation)

House Vote,,, 289 for,,, 124 against
80% repubs voted for,,, 63% dems voted for

Senate vote ,,, 73-27
21 dems voted NO ,,, only 6 repubs voted NO

(pdf)
[Link: www.mdcbowen.org...]

129

MinisterO Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:18:59am

re: #127 Tom on the Rez

Is everything this Michaels guy writes in this National Review article a lie?

Probably most, if not all, yes. Patrick J. Michaels specializes in intentional misinterpretation and misrepresentation.

130

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:19:13am

re: #127 Tom on the Rez

Did you see the comments about Patrick Michaels above? It's been proven beyond all doubt that he is not a trustworthy person on the subject of global warming.

131

SeaMonkey Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:23:45am

Why can't we just say that both sides of the climate change debate make good points? Then we'll do nothing for fifty years and just see what happens. The wrong side can buy the right side a frosty Coke if they want.

132

MinisterO Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:32:33am

re: #131 SeaMonkey

Why can't we just say that both sides of the climate change debate make good points? Then we'll do nothing for fifty years and just see what happens. The wrong side can buy the right side a frosty Coke if they want.

Good idea. I like it. On the one side we have peer reviewed published science. On the other side we have blogs, politicians and industry-funded think tanks. Let's just call it even and go on with our lives.

133

sattv4u2 Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:35:25am

re: #131 SeaMonkey

Why can't we just say that both sides of the climate change debate make good points? Then we'll do nothing for fifty years and just see what happens. The wrong side can buy the right side a frosty Coke if they want.

Depends on who's right

It'll be either real cold or real warm

134

ckb Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:40:20am

What gets me about the whole thing is both sides, including the tree experts, saying how variable and fragile the tree ring data is to begin with. The lengths they are going to to make it "good" seems to make a case to use a different appoach.

There is plenty of empirical data showing we currently have temperatures that are on par with historic warm periods.

135

MinisterO Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:42:59am

re: #134 ckb

There is plenty of empirical data showing we currently have temperatures that are on par with historic warm periods.

What would that be?

136

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:48:58am

re: #127 Tom on the Rez

Ludwig:
There is no peer review without the original data. I won't become a believer until the conclusions can be reproduced by someone else. Is everything this Michaels guy writes in this National Review article a lie?

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

Pretty much yes. All blatant lies and willful distortions.

Do you wish to look at original peer reviewed papers? I can and have linked dozens here.

But before I give you you those links let me ask you, and please respond honestly to the following:

1. Will you actually read them?

2. If you did read them do you have the background to understand them? This is not meant to be a put down. As a physicist, I would not not have the background to meaningfully critique a paper on molecular biology.

3. If the answers to one and two are yes, you would read them and you would understand them, then why haven't you looked for them yourself? It is not as if you can't use google scholar or any of a number of scientific databases, like science direct or ISI, to find thousands of peer reviewed papers on these topics.

4. If the answer to 1 or 2 is no, then why would you take the word over a clearly slanted journalist writing in a clearly political magazine - whose policy is to oppose the science anyway - over the word of tens of thousands of actually qualified scientists.

5. The link I gave you more than covers the data that is available and it explains it in terms that a layman could understand. It lays out the case quite completely. Tell you what. Please read that and then if you have any real questions that need more details, I'll fill you in.

Here it is again...

[Link: earthguide.ucsd.edu...]

137

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:50:37am

re: #128 sattv4u2

Those are fair points, but they are also misleading.

After those votes, all those Dixiecrats became Republicans.

138

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:53:10am

re: #131 SeaMonkey

Why can't we just say that both sides of the climate change debate make good points? Then we'll do nothing for fifty years and just see what happens. The wrong side can buy the right side a frosty Coke if they want.

Because,

1. There are no two sides. The science is quite well settled here. We are warming. We are the ones causing it. The consequences are dire. The scientific community is quite clear on this. There are no great ranks of dissenters, that is false propaganda produced by dishonest political shills.

2. If we pass tipping points, there will be no coca cola because civilization as we know it will collapse.

139

bofhell Tue, Oct 13, 2009 11:57:28am

Breaking news -- Baucus bill has passed Senate Finance Committee, 14-9

140

sattv4u2 Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:04:20pm

re: #137 LudwigVanQuixote

Those are fair points, but they are also misleading.

After those votes, all those Dixiecrats became Republicans.

Not true AT ALL

Al Gore Senior
Robert Byrd
Richard Russell

etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

141

meeshlr Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:55:03pm

re: #37 dimestorenovel

Shouldn't the tree ring data correlate to local temperatures?

I would want to compare local temperatures as far back as possible with the tree rings before using older tree ring data for historical data.

142

PAUL_MACDONALD Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:16:02pm

The Hockey Stick was really the only thing that allowed me to remain a skeptic of AGW. This only the most recent in a long line of verifications.

The thing now becomes "is it reversible or should we start adapting?" I'm on the adapting side.

143

filetandrelease Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:19:26pm

For the skeptics, here is an amusing video about the coming ice age predicted in 1978.

The coming ice age

144

meeshlr Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:26:23pm

re: #142 PAUL_MACDONALD

We can't stop climate change. The climate has always changed and will always change. We live in an open dynamic system which changes following perturbations from here on earth, within the earth, and from space.

Politicians saying "we're going to stop climate change within X years" just make me laugh. So arrogant.

145

MinisterO Tue, Oct 13, 2009 2:13:24pm

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

We should put together a list of the more notable deniers and their various associations. I wonder if people would be as keen to believe them if they realized that these are the same folks who peddled that cigarettes aren't bad for you and that ID is science.

It wouldn't matter one iota. There's nothing rational about these people. There will always be the latest smoking gun, the latest nail in the coffin of man-made global warming, and they don't care where it comes from or what its actual significance might be. A perfect example is the guy in this very thread demanding that Charles "address the missing data" and linking to the press center of a libertarian think tank that is funded by oil and tobacco companies.

146

tomservo Tue, Oct 13, 2009 3:13:07pm

Correlation does not imply causation.

147

Mad Prophet Ludwig Tue, Oct 13, 2009 3:52:25pm

re: #143 filetandrelease

re: #144 meeshlr

re: #146 tomservo

And here at the end of the thread come the disjointed denier talking points.

Since reading is difficult for some, I shall give you a video to watch.

Youtube Video

148

MinisterO Tue, Oct 13, 2009 4:48:14pm

re: #143 filetandrelease

You really know how to pick a news source. First a libertarian think tank funded by oil and tobacco companies, now this:

Mainstream Media Cover-Up Implodes As World Discovers Millions Marched In DC

The New York Times says the police declined to estimate the crowd -- or rather the corporate media declined to report it -- because the number was around two million, the largest protest in the capitol's history.

Oh Teh Stupid it burns!

149

Jimbouie Tue, Oct 13, 2009 6:20:59pm

McIntyre indeed had the Hantimerov data, but no way to determine why the Briffa chronology differed with its 20th century uptick because Briffa wouldn't tell him exactly what tree ring measurements had been used out of the Hantimerov data. (Briffa had used a certain small Hantimerov data set designed for corridor standardization). Then McIntyre was tipped to the fact that Phil Trans B, where Briffa had published most recently, had strict data archive requirements. Per their requirements, an author had to provide data when a reasonable request was made. After another year's delay Briffa finally capitulated, and McIntyre then had access to Briffa's measurements and could investigate. So the intimation that McIntyre was only pretending to have been denied information is false.

150

meeshlr Tue, Oct 13, 2009 7:10:35pm

re: #147 LudwigVanQuixote

When is it the "end of a thread"?

151

coscolo Tue, Oct 13, 2009 9:09:32pm

re: #16 ludwigvanquixote

No "Medieval Warm Period?" So how do you explain Greenland being warm enough to attract a Viking settlement that thrived for several centuries until advent of the Little Ice Age we've been coming out of for the past couple of centuries.

152

MinisterO Wed, Oct 14, 2009 7:29:06am

re: #150 meeshlr

When is it the "end of a thread"?

The end of a climate-change thread is when the deniers trickle in to post long-debunked nonsense unchallenged. Like this:

re: #151 coscolo

No "Medieval Warm Period?" So how do you explain Greenland being warm enough to attract a Viking settlement that thrived for several centuries until advent of the Little Ice Age we've been coming out of for the past couple of centuries.

If you'd watched the video you'd know the answer to that: The MWP was largely a local phenomenon. Global average temperature during the MWP was cooler than today. There is a bump in the reconstructed global temperature records corresponding to the MWP but it's nowhere near as pronounced as in the reconstructions for northern Europe.

153

eoin Wed, Oct 14, 2009 11:24:44am

I have been checking LGF for years now getting good information on AGW. There were links to "the Swindle" and geln becks "exposed, the climate of fear" I just noticed that Charles is now saying that Co2 is going to increase temperature. When did we make the switch on this issue. I know the science isnt settled but has it only been 6 months since Charles learned or was convinced that AGW is real. Im not a troll an LGF faithful since I lived in Spain in 2001, Cheers.

154

[deleted] Wed, Oct 14, 2009 1:27:56pm

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Anti-AGW Propaganda Shot Down Again

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