The chairman of the House Republican Conference, Mike Pence, speaks out in favor of the race-baiting of Rush Limbaugh and the black helicopter bad craziness of Glenn Beck: Mike Pence: Limbaugh, Beck speak for many Americans.
A picture of a political party gone completely off the rails. The GOP is afraid to take on these crazies, because it will alienate their ever-shrinking base.
1 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:03:18am |
And people talk about wanting the Republican Party back... I'm beginning to think it can no longer be saved. I told the Mrs. Fish last night, when she asked "what political party we are again", that we don't really identify with either of them.
| 2 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:03:53am |
Meanwhile I find that the GOP is speaking less and less for me.
| 3 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:04:12am |
Dear Mitt Romney:
We need an adult to lead us. Please phone home.
Sincerely Yours,
The moderate right of center sane Americans
| 6 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:04:41am |
re: #1 thedopefishlives
And people talk about wanting the Republican Party back... I'm beginning to think it can no longer be saved. I told the Mrs. Fish last night, when she asked "what political party we are again", that we don't really identify with either of them.
So how long till Ojoe posts about the Whigs?
| 7 |
Honorary Yooper Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:05:10am |
| 8 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:05:12am |
The GOP is afraid to take on these crazies, because it will alienate their ever-shrinking base.
| 9 |
Big Steve Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:05:30am |
re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
So how long till Ojoe posts about the Whigs?
not for a while he isn't on the party line yet today
| 10 |
Randy W. Weeks Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:05:33am |
I don't know how I'm ever going to be able to vote for another Republican.
| 11 |
Honorary Yooper Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:05:43am |
re: #8 Charles
The GOP is afraid to take on these crazies, because it will alienate their ever-shrinking base.
Yet it is exactly the crazies that are creating the shrinking base.
| 13 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:05:55am |
re: #8 Charles
The GOP is afraid to take on these crazies, because it will alienate their ever-shrinking base.
Did they ever think about, y'know, maybe getting a NEW base? One that isn't rooted in a bunch of whackjobs, racist freaks, kooks, clowns, and all-around assholes?
| 14 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:06:22am |
re: #8 Charles
The GOP is afraid to take on these crazies, because it will alienate their ever-shrinking base.
and thats why their base is shrinking.
| 15 |
Big Steve Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:07:41am |
re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
and thats why their base is shrinking.
I don't know if it is shrinking or just dying and not getting replaced.
| 16 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:07:48am |
| 17 |
Honorary Yooper Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:08:47am |
re: #15 Big Steve
I don't know if it is shrinking or just dying and not getting replaced.
No, the crazies are the ones who drive other people away.
| 18 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:09:05am |
Please note--THIS is why some of us think that the rightwing crazies have more big-party influence than the leftwing crazies.
| 19 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:09:25am |
I used to be part of the Solid Republican Base.
| 20 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:10:13am |
re: #16 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
re: #12 ZiggyTheir ratings suggest Pence may be correct.
Ratings do not equal sanity.
Nor do they equal ability to win elections.
| 21 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:10:32am |
What are the projections of the NY election? It looks like that will be the test case.
| 22 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:10:50am |
re: #16 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Ratings do not equal sanity.
Profits from "insanity" is the same color as profits from the "sane," green. That's all that matters to people like Beck, Rush, the networks that carry them and the advertisers.
That's the way it works, unfortunately.
| 23 |
Sharmuta Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:11:53am |
“So to my friends in the so-called ‘mainstream media’ I say, ‘conservative talk show hosts may not speak for everybody but they speak for more Americans than you do.’”
Congressman Pence fails to realize these talking heads only speak for their bank accounts. They do not care about the movement, they care about what empowers and enriches them. Frankly- keeping democrats in power serves their needs better then when their friends are in power because it gives them something to rail against- and that's their bread and butter. So GOPers are free to think pundits and media figures are on their side, but it's awfully naive of them.
| 24 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:12:03am |
re: #8 Charles
All your base are belong to Rush and Beck.
| 25 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:12:26am |
re: #23 Sharmuta
Congressman Pence fails to realize these talking heads only speak for their bank accounts. They do not care about the movement, they care about what empowers and enriches them. Frankly- keeping democrats in power serves their needs better then when their friends are in power because it gives them something to rail against- and that's their bread and butter. So GOPers are free to think pundits and media figures are on their side, but it's awfully naive of them.
GMTA...
re: #22 Walter L. Newton
| 26 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:13:05am |
re: #24 Mad Al-Jaffee
All your base are belong to Rush and Beck.
And, as always, I'm here to point out that 'the base' in Arabic is 'al-Qaeda'--a factoid that actually isn't at all significant, but always makes me smile.
| 27 |
vxbush Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:13:12am |
And the ad that just happens to show up on the right on this page?
Anger management classes.
Irony programmed into LGF ads. Very nice.
| 28 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:13:25am |
re: #21 Killgore Trout
What are the projections of the NY election? It looks like that will be the test case.
Not so good for the GOP:
The Wall Street Journal has weighed in on the divisive New York special election, blaming state Republican leaders for creating a mess by nominating Dede Scozzafava -- despite her "liberal record." She supports gay marriage, President Obama's stimulus plan and so many tax increases that she's to the left of her Democratic opponent, the paper says.
Scozzafava's record has driven so many Republicans to the conservative candidate in the race that it has become a three-way race, with the possibility of a Democrat winning the GOP-leaning 23rd Congressional District.
The editorial concludes: "A defeat would teach Republicans that running candidates who believe in nothing will keep them in the minority for years to come."
| 29 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:13:33am |
re: #21 Killgore Trout
The NY state Republican party is an oxymoron... have you taken a look at that Albany circus?
Makes the Iraqi parliament look organized.
| 30 |
Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:13:36am |
re: #13 thedopefishlives
Did they ever think about, y'know, maybe getting a NEW base? One that isn't rooted in a bunch of whackjobs, racist freaks, kooks, clowns, and all-around assholes?
Then where do all the whackjobs, racist freaks, kooks, clowns, and all-around assholes go? They start a new far right party and split the vote ensuring a permanent democratic majority. I may be a democrat but I don't want to live in a one party state.
| 32 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:14:19am |
re: #27 vxbush
And the ad that just happens to show up on the right on this page?
Anger management classes.
Irony programmed into LGF ads. Very nice.
I got the one for making electricity at home.
| 33 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:14:29am |
re: #28 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Yeah, looks like a spoiler...
Poll: Democrat Bill Owens Takes Narrow Lead In NY-23
| 34 |
Baier Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:14:35am |
re: #8 Charles
The GOP is afraid to take on these crazies, because it will alienate their ever-shrinking base.
A sure way to fail is to grab a bigger part of a shrinking market.
| 35 |
Boondock St. Bender Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:14:44am |
re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist
If the crazies vote they have influence in either party.(they reach to the crazies for more votes in the belief that the true believers will never abandon the party)My time in the labor council showed me that.
| 36 |
Big Steve Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:14:56am |
conservative talk show hosts may not speak for everybody but they speak for more Americans than you do.
Speaking for more people than the MSN...how hard is that? That is like a battle between Andorra and Lichtenstein.
| 37 |
vxbush Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:15:19am |
re: #32 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I got the one for making electricity at home.
Oh, but that's not nearly as much fun...or perhaps LGF is trying to tell me something.
| 38 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:15:56am |
re: #3 _RememberTonyC
Dear Mitt Romney:
We need an adult to lead us. Please phone home.
Sincerely Yours,
The moderate right of center sane Americans
He's out there as we speak garnering support in the trenches, eating lousy chicken dinners with every small town Iowa and New Hampshire ward and precinct leaders
ssshhh
| 40 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:16:02am |
re: #29 tradewind
The NY state Republican party is an oxymoron... have you taken a look at that Albany circus?
Makes the Iraqi parliament look organized.
Yeah, It's incomprehensible. They're locking each other out of the chamber, mass party defections, etc. Pretty wacky.
| 41 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:16:13am |
re: #31 tradewind
Well, I'm leaking... so I'd guess Liquid.
| 42 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:16:25am |
re: #3 _RememberTonyC
Well, VA is about to take a step in that direction when they trounce Creigh Deeds.
Rumors of the demise of the moderate Republican are greatly exaggerated.
They're alive and voting, which trumps noise making every time.
| 43 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:17:25am |
re: #30 Conservative Moonbat
Then where do all the whackjobs, racist freaks, kooks, clowns, and all-around assholes go? They start a new far right party and split the vote ensuring a permanent democratic majority. I may be a democrat but I don't want to live in a one party state.
I'm reasonably sure that if the Republicans grew balls and took initiative toward the political center, a lot of no-nonsense Democrats would probably jump the fence - the ones that are more motivated by sanity than by party loyalty, that is.
| 44 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:17:31am |
re: #28 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I saw that Wall street Journal editorial. More craziness. Their position is that a defeat for Scozzafava would teach the GOP that they need to lurch even farther to the right -- exactly the wrong lesson. So they write an editorial trying to make the defeat happen.
Sam Tanenhaus was right -- we're witnessing the death of conservatism. It's being replaced by revanchism and far right populism.
| 45 |
Boondock St. Bender Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:17:38am |
re: #30 Conservative Moonbat
Mt thought was to leave the wacko's in the wilderness where they belong,don't reach out to them in the first place.When they rear their heads ,have the balls to denounce them.
| 46 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:18:05am |
re: #28 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Funny thing though, Newt (who has endoresed her) stated that she is NOT in favor of the stimulus plan
He did say he has differences with her, but on "key" issues ( health care ,, etc) they agree
| 47 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:18:14am |
re: #13 thedopefishlives
Here's the thing... it's no fun to talk or speculate about sanity. Crazy takes the lede every time.
| 48 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:18:22am |
re: #42 tradewind
Well, VA is about to take a step in that direction when they trounce Creigh Deeds.
Rumors of the demise of the moderate Republican are greatly exaggerated.
They're alive and voting, which trumps noise making every time.
Or links to polls, snippy articles clever videos or evidently bias pundits.
| 49 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:18:48am |
re: #30 Conservative Moonbat
Then where do all the whackjobs, racist freaks, kooks, clowns, and all-around assholes go? They start a new far right party and split the vote ensuring a permanent democratic majority. I may be a democrat but I don't want to live in a one party state.
What happens is there is a fight for the center. Specifically, we get back to the concept of a center left and a center right party with the crazies of playing in their own little world. Right now there are a ton of disaffected independents who would be ripe to jump onto a center right party.
| 50 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:19:14am |
re: #43 thedopefishlives
I'm reasonably sure that if the Republicans grew balls and took initiative toward the political center, a lot of no-nonsense Democrats would probably jump the fence - the ones that are more motivated by sanity than by party loyalty, that is.
The will go where the money is.
| 51 |
Boondock St. Bender Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:19:23am |
re: #44 Charles
The gop will not learn until they are reduced to total irrelevance.then and only maybe then will a reform of the party take place.
| 52 |
jayzee Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:19:29am |
OK-I've been VERY critical of Beck, and not very critical of Rush-However, what is a Republican congressman doing giving official Republican support to any media? The answer should've been that in this country we have freedom of the press and the press can say what they like and do so often to appeal to their audience. I have an issue with any government official (this means you too President Obama) telling me what news sources I should and should not listen to.
| 54 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:20:14am |
Since this outrage is making the rounds today...
Malkin: The content of Obama’s off-the-record meeting with liberal journalists ‘ought to be disclosed.’
As Crooks and Liars’ Susie Madrak notes, the complainers at Fox appear to be “suffering from memory loss” about President Bush’s many off-the-record chats with conservative columnists and radio hosts, including Fox News personalities Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham and Glenn Beck. Additionally, they seem to forget that Obama shared an off-the-record dinner with conservative columnists, including Fox contributors Charles Krauthammer, Bill Kristol and Paul Gigot, before his Inauguration. Malkin should note that the dinner lasted two-and-half hours.
| 55 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:20:59am |
re: #52 jayzee
OK-I've been VERY critical of Beck, and not very critical of Rush-However, what is a Republican congressman doing giving official Republican support to any media? The answer should've been that in this country we have freedom of the press and the press can say what they like and do so often to appeal to their audience. I have an issue with any government official (this means you too President Obama) telling me what news sources I should and should not listen to.
But the administration is right, FOx is not news.
//
| 56 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:21:15am |
re: #48 Walter L. Newton
They're not going to nominate a tea partier for President, although I am sure that the WH will look for any possible link to use.
I don't see O getting ousted in '12 anyway, but I think that the Republicans will be either in control or at least out of veto reach in the Senate and, with more work and luck, the House by then.
Actually, I almost hope he does not lose reelection, because if that happens, it means something Very Bad has happened in the country. And I don't want that in any way.
| 57 |
Boondock St. Bender Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:21:22am |
re: #54 Killgore Trout
a private conversation should be just that,a private conversation.
| 58 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:21:49am |
re: #36 Big Steve
Speaking for more people than the MSN...how hard is that? That is like a battle between Andorra and Lichtenstein.
Odd that you mention them.
Liechtenstein, Andorra Forced To Fight By Larger Countries
HELSINKI—Members of the Group of Eight, the forum for the world's most powerful industrialized nations, held a special session Tuesday to discuss how best to prod the European microstates of Lichtenstein and Andorra into fighting.
The G8's proposal, which seeks to pit the small, landlocked principalities against each other in military combat, was reportedly drafted after the leaders of the eight nations had grown bored with their recent negotiations over international energy tariffs.
"After much careful deliberation, we have come to the consensus that the nations of Liechtenstein and Andorra need to just man up and fight, " said U.K. Prime Minister Gordon Brown during an afternoon recess. "All of the bigger countries want them to, and everyone agrees at this point that it would be quite lame if they didn't. Therefore, I would advise Liechtenstein and Andorra to grow some balls already and get on with it."
| 59 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:21:52am |
re: #38 sattv4u2
He's out there as we speak garnering support in the trenches, eating lousy chicken dinners with every small town Iowa and New Hampshire ward and precinct leaders
ssshhh
Hope you're right, bro.
| 60 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:21:52am |
re: #40 Killgore Trout
And a wholly incompetent governor who raised state spending by 10% at a time when state revenues are down significantly, leading to a budget deficit for the current fiscal year that just started in the billions.
| 61 |
Boondock St. Bender Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:22:16am |
re: #56 tradewind
given the current climate,i agree.
| 62 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:22:18am |
re: #54 Killgore Trout
Since this outrage is making the rounds today...
Malkin: The content of Obama’s off-the-record meeting with liberal journalists ‘ought to be disclosed.’
It's no longer just a single 'Outrageous Outrage of the Day' -- there are several of these nontroversies every day lately.
| 63 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:22:38am |
re: #57 Boondock St. Bender
It also seems like a fairly common event. That doesn't keep the ODS sufferers from freaking out.
| 64 |
webevintage Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:22:40am |
re: #12 Ziggy
Their ratings suggest Pence may be correct.
Their ratings are nothing when you consider the population of this country or the ratings the national news gets or American Idol. Their ratings are such a small, wee part of the American public or I would bet of even the public that swings conservative.
I wonder how many folks watch Beck just for the crazy trainwreck?
My teenager does.
He finds the show pure comedy.
| 65 |
Randall Gross Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:22:49am |
re: #8 Charles
The GOP is afraid to take on these crazies, because it will alienate their ever-shrinking base.
It's where their only money comes from now as well. They've pissed away their business constituency and the moderate middle class, now they only have the crazies. I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.
| 66 |
MrSilverDragon Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:22:59am |
When politicians become pocket-puppets of media, and media becomes pocket-puppets of politicians, it's time to start over from scratch. Dunno what more I can say about it.
| 67 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:23:07am |
re: #59 _RememberTonyC
Hope you're right, bro.
Lets just say I know people that know people
Now ,, that said,,, whether or not he gets the nomination is an entire different conversation, but right now he's doing all the 'right" things
| 68 |
Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:23:08am |
re: #49 bloodstar
What happens is there is a fight for the center. Specifically, we get back to the concept of a center left and a center right party with the crazies of playing in their own little world. Right now there are a ton of disaffected independents who would be ripe to jump onto a center right party.
That's not how third parties have traditionaly worked in the US due to the "first past the post" electoral system. The two parties with the most in common split the vote, giving the election to the party least like them. Examples are Nader throwing the election to Bush in 2000, Perot throwing it to Clinton before that. There's been a long history of them going back to the free-soilers iirc.
| 69 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:23:14am |
re: #62 Charles
It's no longer just a single 'Outrageous Outrage of the Day' -- there are several of these nontroversies every day lately.
Because life is Just Plain Not Fun (tm) when you're not shrieking your head off about something. Apparently.
| 70 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:23:25am |
re: #57 Boondock St. Bender
The real problem is that with all we have to deal with in the country now... two wars, joblessness, health care in a mess, Obama sucks up to MSNBC talking heads for two and a half precious hours.
I doubt he'd give McChrystal that much time.
| 71 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:23:36am |
re: #62 Charles
More outrage, more gooder!
Tea Party!
| 72 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:23:44am |
re: #56 tradewind
They're not going to nominate a tea partier for President, although I am sure that the WH will look for any possible link to use.
I don't see O getting ousted in '12 anyway, but I think that the Republicans will be either in control or at least out of veto reach in the Senate and, with more work and luck, the House by then.
Actually, I almost hope he does not lose reelection, because if that happens, it means something Very Bad has happened in the country. And I don't want that in any way.
I see him going down in flames in 2012, and not because of the conservatives, not because of any really renewed conservative party, he's going to go down all by himself.
He has split his own base in at least 3 different ways and there is no indication that it's going to change anytime soon.
Obama is doing a GREAT job of supplying himself with his own defeat in 2012.
It may not be a conservative that wins, but it's not going to be Obama.
| 73 |
Locker Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:23:55am |
re: #44 Charles
I saw that Wall street Journal editorial. More craziness. Their position is that a defeat for Scozzafava would teach the GOP that they need to lurch even farther to the right -- exactly the wrong lesson. So they write an editorial trying to make the defeat happen.
Sam Tanenhaus was right -- we're witnessing the death of conservatism. It's being replaced by revanchism and far right populism.
Good lead in to a refresher on Sam's PBS appearance as follows:
| 74 |
Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:24:56am |
re: #54 Killgore Trout
Since this outrage is making the rounds today...
Malkin: The content of Obama’s off-the-record meeting with liberal journalists ‘ought to be disclosed.’
Cry me a river. He had a meeting with right wing journalists too that lasted just as long.
| 75 |
jayzee Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:25:01am |
re: #55 Walter L. Newton
But the administration is right, FOx is not news.
//
Not the opinion stuff-no. Not Beck, not Hannity etc but their news is still news. Brent Baher, Chris Wallace, even Britt Hume are very good I think. And their news pieces are actually well balanced. Compare that to MSNBC with Keith running the news desk during the election cycle.
Besides-my point is, content is not the point.
| 76 |
Boondock St. Bender Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:25:22am |
re: #63 Killgore Trout
teh sekrit bildaburger meetin's
There's doin's a transpirin'!!111!!!eleventy!
| 77 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:26:33am |
re: #73 Locker
Good lead in to a refresher on Sam's PBS appearance as follows:
So, what is it going to be, a one party system? As long as you have the left, the Democratic Party, almost everything else will still be conservative, by default.
| 78 |
Boondock St. Bender Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:27:18am |
re: #71 Killgore Trout
oohh hey kilgore,did i mention to you before,that i just built my first guitar?
| 79 |
SixDegrees Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:27:45am |
re: #4 Big Steve
What else is Pence supposed to say?
That, although Limbaugh and Beck may speak for some, they are race-baiting, fear-mongering liars whose views and behavior are odious in the extreme, and that the GOP would rather lose than be associated with such filth.
For starters.
| 80 |
SixDegrees Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:28:46am |
re: #62 Charles
It's no longer just a single 'Outrageous Outrage of the Day' -- there are several of these nontroversies every day lately.
Throw a bunch of shit and see if anything sticks.
| 81 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:29:41am |
re: #67 sattv4u2
Lets just say I know people that know people
Now ,, that said,,, whether or not he gets the nomination is an entire different conversation, but right now he's doing all the 'right" things
good for him. he has been very quiet these past few months. he seems to have distanced himself from the extremists, who were essentially the same people who didn't like him before because of his LDS faith. Maybe his strategy is to allow the "true believers" to exhaust themselves with their extreme ODS ranting, and then he can cruise in with his levelheaded, untainted presence and scoop up the moderates who comprise most of the electorate.
| 82 |
Ziggy Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:29:42am |
re: #16 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Ratings do not equal sanity.
That is probably true. It doesn't change the fact that they obviously connect with a large number of American's
| 83 |
Honorary Yooper Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:29:55am |
re: #72 Walter L. Newton
True, Obama may get beaten in the primaries by another Democrat. IIRC, that has not happened before, but Ted Kennedy did get close to ousting Jimmy Carter that way.
| 84 |
Yashmak Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:30:01am |
The GOP is afraid to take on these crazies, because it will alienate their ever-shrinking base.
Which is, itself, a form of craziness. . .since the reason at least some of the base is fleeing (those staunch conservatives who abhor the race-baiting, exclusionary ideas voiced by the likes of Rush & Beck), is that they won't stand up to them.
| 85 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:30:05am |
re: #68 Conservative Moonbat
That's not how third parties have traditionaly worked in the US due to the "first past the post" electoral system. The two parties with the most in common split the vote, giving the election to the party least like them. Examples are Nader throwing the election to Bush in 2000, Perot throwing it to Clinton before that. There's been a long history of them going back to the free-soilers iirc.
Very true, however we're stuck with few options, reform the election process and go to something like IRV, or try to coopt the crazies and retake control of the Republican party, or form a third party and try to coopt the middle. I refuse to hope for the country to crash and burn just so another party is in power.
No one wants to reform the election process, so I say go to the middle and stake out positions and try to draw back the disaffected independents and conservative Democrats
| 86 |
webevintage Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:30:20am |
re: #54 Killgore Trout
Since this outrage is making the rounds today...
Malkin: The content of Obama’s off-the-record meeting with liberal journalists ‘ought to be disclosed.’
FOX and Malkin seem to suffer from “memory loss” a lot when it comes to the previous administrations.
Hell, even members of the previous administrations suffer from memory loss...like Dana Perino saying "oh we never, ever went after a news organization." when of course Perino is on tape yacking about NBC.
Bush never gave a interview to the NYTs.
Now I do not like saying "but they did it too"...except when hypocrites need to be exposed and lying liars uncovered. (yes, I calling Dana and Karl liars)
| 87 |
pdc_lgf Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:30:22am |
“So to my friends in the so-called ‘mainstream media’ I say, ‘conservative talk show hosts may not speak for everybody but they speak for more Americans than you do.’”
Finally. This a welcome development. According to a guy positioned to know, we can now dismiss the skewing effects of the MSM. That "media bias" which is "unfairly" messin' with peoples' heads, and hiding the facts, etc., etc.
Of course, it's not legitimate to question whether conservative talk show hosts are doing the same. We can henceforth rest easy, knowing that the American people have the information they need to make informed decisions.
I feel better already.
| 88 |
transient Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:30:22am |
re: #69 thedopefishlives
Because life is Just Plain Not Fun (tm) when you're not shrieking your head off about something. Apparently.
I have an Automatic Shrill Filter.
Works great.
Who is Malkin again?
/
| 89 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:31:25am |
re: #74 Conservative Moonbat
I guess no outrage. Got a link? When and who?
| 90 |
Randall Gross Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:32:25am |
I've ordered this book, and am reading it now. An eye opener
| 91 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:32:34am |
re: #54 Killgore Trout
Since this outrage is making the rounds today...
Malkin: The content of Obama’s off-the-record meeting with liberal journalists ‘ought to be disclosed.’
I wonder if Michelle Malkin was doing that interview from James Dobson's TV studio?
[Link: www.rightwingwatch.org...]
| 92 |
SFGoth Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:32:37am |
re: #1 thedopefishlives
And people talk about wanting the Republican Party back... I'm beginning to think it can no longer be saved. I told the Mrs. Fish last night, when she asked "what political party we are again", that we don't really identify with either of them.
And I was excoriated last year for saying essentially the same thing.
I know whom I'm writing in in '12: Krauthammer
Just Krauthammer.
| 93 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:32:52am |
re: #80 SixDegrees
Throw a bunch of shit and see if anything sticks.
I look at it in a more sinister light. Look at the decline in the US in acceptance of Global Warming, it's the same concept with ID and now in politics, should loud enough, and make things confusing enough, and it doesn't matter what the facts are, the person who shouts the loudest wins the debate.
| 94 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:32:57am |
re: #79 SixDegrees
The same way the Democrats denounced Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan.
Check.
| 95 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:33:09am |
re: #83 Honorary Yooper
True, Obama may get beaten in the primaries by another Democrat. IIRC, that has not happened before, but Ted Kennedy did get close to ousting Jimmy Carter that way.
I see nobody of prominence on the political left with the ability to challenge Obama in the primaries, let alone defeat him.
| 96 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:33:12am |
re: #90 Thanos
I've ordered this book, and am reading it now. An eye opener
It's a very good book. Obviously has a leftist slant, but the mountain of facts is pretty hard to deny.
| 97 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:33:24am |
Breaking, IDF going after Gaza missile sites.
| 98 |
Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:33:47am |
re: #85 bloodstar
Very true, however we're stuck with few options, reform the election process and go to something like IRV, or try to coopt the crazies and retake control of the Republican party, or form a third party and try to coopt the middle. I refuse to hope for the country to crash and burn just so another party is in power.
No one wants to reform the election process, so I say go to the middle and stake out positions and try to draw back the disaffected independents and conservative Democrats
I say building awareness for a reform of the election process is the only way to go. IRV all the way.
| 99 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:33:54am |
re: #1 thedopefishlives
You know it is just a matter of how many losses will it take before they let the new (more centrist) blood in.
| 100 |
Yashmak Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:34:11am |
re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
So how long till Ojoe posts about the Whigs?
Heck, he got me interested in them. They seem more and more interesting with each incremental step the GOP takes in the wrong direction.
| 101 |
abbyadams Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:34:17am |
re: #83 Honorary Yooper
I would not bank on that. Remember the PUMA.
| 102 |
Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:34:26am |
re: #75 jayzee
Never watched Fox And Friends then...? ;-)
Fox News coverage is badly slanted...
[Link: mediamatters.org...]
If Fox News during its indepth analysis of why the WH wasn't talking to them had actually aired Glen Beck's "Racist" controversy... then i could halfway agree with you.
| 103 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:34:34am |
re: #90 Thanos
/Oh, no sensationalism in that title . No sir. None. /
That title is just So dom.
| 104 |
A Man for all Seasons Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:34:38am |
Well Crap..Pence is my Congressman...
| 105 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:34:49am |
re: #8 Charles
Yeah, but do they have to go out and embrace them? No. There are still too many purist far righters in the GOP leadership.
| 106 |
Yashmak Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:35:09am |
re: #16 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Ratings do not equal sanity.
Nor do they translate into actual voter support for GOP candidates.
| 108 |
Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:36:11am |
re: #89 tradewind
I guess no outrage. Got a link? When and who?
Obama Dines with Conservative Journalists
President-elect Barack Obama made an unscheduled stop this evening to attend a dinner party at the Washington, D.C. area home of conservative columnist George Will.
A press pool photographer also spied fellow conservatives William Kristol of The Weekly Standard and David Brooks of the New York Times. A spokesman for Obama was also in attendance; a full guest list was not made public.
| 109 |
Randall Gross Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:36:42am |
re: #96 Charles
It's a very good book. Obviously has a leftist slant, but the mountain of facts is pretty hard to deny.
I'll be fact checking it, and I understand there are some errors, but they are minor and don't overturn the argument.
| 110 |
Danny Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:36:57am |
This is interesting...Penn Jillette ruminating over his choice to appear on Glenn Beck shows after Tommy Smothers disses him for it:
| 111 |
transient Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:37:13am |
re: #103 tradewind
/Oh, no sensationalism in that title . No sir. None. /
That title is just So dom.
The real question is whether the author is worth his salt, or whether it's a Lot of hooey.
| 112 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:37:15am |
re: #82 Ziggy
That is probably true. It doesn't change the fact that they obviously connect with a large number of American's
Numbers mean nothing if not put in to some sort of context.
Based on his rating, Rush gets between 14-30 millions listeners per show.
Last US population numbers say he have appx 300 millions people in the US today.
Which means at best, only 10% of America listens to what he says on a regular basis.
| 113 |
Locker Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:37:31am |
re: #77 Walter L. Newton
So, what is it going to be, a one party system? As long as you have the left, the Democratic Party, almost everything else will still be conservative, by default.
The Democratic Party represents the left about as completely as the Republican party represents conservatism. Lip service and nothing more.
| 114 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:37:36am |
I've been watching the Twitter search for "Rush Limbaugh" for the past couple of days, and wow. There are some really crazy people out there, with a HUGE sense of victimhood -- and a completely insane level of idolization of Limbaugh.
| 115 |
Ziggy Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:37:50am |
re: #64 webevintage
Their ratings are nothing when you consider the population of this country or the ratings the national news gets or American Idol. Their ratings are such a small, wee part of the American public or I would bet of even the public that swings conservative.
I wonder how many folks watch Beck just for the crazy trainwreck?
My teenager does.
He finds the show pure comedy.
Their audience shares blow most other programs away (during those time slots, anyway). As for watching for the entertainment value, I'm sure there a some watch for that.
| 116 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:37:52am |
re: #92 SFGoth
And I was excoriated last year for saying essentially the same thing.
I know whom I'm writing in in '12: Krauthammer
Just Krauthammer.
I don't believe he's eligible.
| 117 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:38:17am |
re: #11 Honorary Yooper
Negative feedback loop. But realize the people with the money to invest or donate are not rabid. There will come a point where the far right is just talking to itself.
If you note the last election the rabid right is losing and the moderates are wining primaries. To the point where the far right is trying to close down primaries.
Only sends more people into the Independent column - where there is more clout. Ity is better to be an independent who needs to be wooed than a beat up minority inside that shrinking tent.
Something will trigger a sea change - always does.
| 118 |
Ben Hur Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:38:20am |
re: #21 Killgore Trout
What are the projections of the NY election? It looks like that will be the test case.
NY? A test case?
You're obviously not from NY.
| 119 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:38:23am |
re: #98 Conservative Moonbat
I say building awareness for a reform of the election process is the only way to go. IRV all the way.
Agreed, I "waste" my vote each election on the libertarian candidates, and IRV would really help gauge just how popular some of the third parties really are. Breaking down the first past the post concept would do wonders for the political health of the US. It's unfortunate that the political parties have negative incentive to do so.
| 120 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:38:36am |
If Fox is not a news site, and no other MSM bothered to look into the ACORN abomination, does that mean it's really not news?
If an organization commits crimes and fraud in a news vacuum, does that mean there's no crime, or just no news?
There's that river in Egypt , overflowing its banks again.
| 121 |
transient Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:38:49am |
How does one create/ evolve a viable new political party?
| 122 |
bratwurst Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:38:50am |
re: #82 Ziggy
That is probably true. It doesn't change the fact that they obviously connect with a large number of American's
PROBABLY true? Rush and FNC had large audiences during the 2006 and 2008 election cycles.
| 123 |
Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:39:14am |
re: #95 _RememberTonyC
Agreed - he may get a far-left challenger from a nowhere district as a netroots attempt to keep BHO honest... but i very much doubt there would be a concerted effort.
There is always a third party Green/Naderite who will take the Far Left vote instead.
| 125 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:39:29am |
re: #108 Conservative Moonbat
A dinner party with George Will?
Yeah, just the same as a two and a half hour briefing with no other activity scheduled.
| 126 |
MandyManners Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:39:34am |
re: #89 tradewind
I guess no outrage. Got a link? When and who?
Colonel Mustard after dinner in the parlor with the candlestick!
| 127 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:39:50am |
re: #95 _RememberTonyC
I see nobody of prominence on the political left with the ability to challenge Obama in the primaries, let alone defeat him.
What about Hilary? Imagine that coup!
| 128 |
SixDegrees Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:39:51am |
re: #94 tradewind
The same way the Democrats denounced Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan.
Check.
Once the DNC stopped granting those folks the spotlight and shoved them into the closet, they started winning elections again. They lost in 2002 and 2004 because the loons you mention, and others, were front-and-center in the national attention.
The credit for that shift belongs to Howard Dean, who recognized that allowing the flaming assholes to dominate the stage was costing the party dearly at the polling booth.
The GOP is repeating exactly the same mistakes, without a hint of having learned from their opposition.
| 129 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:40:06am |
| 130 |
Ben Hur Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:40:35am |
re: #124 Sharmuta
Hey- this was for you
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Thanks!
I saw that.
Then forgot that I saw that!
| 131 |
SFGoth Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:40:41am |
| 132 |
Gus Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:40:55am |
re: #112 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Numbers mean nothing if not put in to some sort of context.
Based on his rating, Rush gets between 14-30 millions listeners per show.
Last US population numbers say he have appx 300 millions people in the US today.Which means at best, only 10% of America listens to what he says on a regular basis.
And out of those 300 plus million not all are of voting age. So it's lower than 10%. Even if they go a 100% election turn-out it would translate into nothing nothing even remotely relevant.
Another factor is that Glenn Beck spends a good part of his time ranting against the GOP. This makes the Glenn Beck demographics a minority within a minority within the context of the GOP.
| 133 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:41:00am |
re: #114 Charles
I've been watching the Twitter search for "Rush Limbaugh" for the past couple of days, and wow. There are some really crazy people out there, with a HUGE sense of victimhood -- and a completely insane level of idolization of Limbaugh.
Here's the thing about Limbaugh, though: He's got the cult of personality down pat. The man is definitely very charismatic and charming, despite being an utter dumbass. As an indication, I still kinda like him even though I KNOW he's being deliberately inflammatory most of the time. While it doesn't excuse the level of stupid out there, it's easy to see why so many people idolize him, and given what he's been saying lately, The Stupid (tm) would be very strong with those people.
| 134 |
Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:41:14am |
re: #107 pdc_lgf
Pro-Life (unless it's the Death Penalty)
Pro Gun
"Tort reform is the biggest healthcare problem..."
For simplfying the tax code - as long as the Rich can keep their complicated tax breaks.
For blurring Church and State
| 135 |
Yashmak Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:41:14am |
re: #121 transient
How does one create/ evolve a viable new political party?
I imagine it helps to try, and of course you have to dump the idea that many share that you're wasting your vote if you throw in with a 3rd party.
| 136 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:41:39am |
| 137 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:41:48am |
Hey Dede, doing ok with that knife in your back?
Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) appeared yesterday on Laura Ingraham's radio show -- and called upon listeners to support Doug Hoffman, the Conservative Party candidate in the NY-23 special election, instead of the moderate Republican nominee Dede Scozzafava.
Well, if I could have supported Hoffman before, there's no way I would now, he's been tainted by Bachmann. :)
| 138 |
tradewind Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:41:55am |
re: #123 wozzablog
I disagree... I think the left learned its lesson and got tired of losing. Kos was on the bandwagon early in the last campaign... shut up and fall in line. In fact, their marching song was ' You don't have to fall in love, just fall in line '.
Even if Obama makes them unhappy, they'll remember The Bush and pull together to avoid a Republican return to the WH in '12.
As I said, I don't even mind, because the defeat of an incumbent usually means there is deep trouble in the US.
| 139 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:42:33am |
| 140 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:43:00am |
re: #132 Gus 802
And out of those 300 plus million not all are of voting age. So it's lower than 10%. Even if they go a 100% election turn-out it would translate into nothing nothing even remotely relevant.
Another factor is that Glenn Beck spends a good part of his time ranting against the GOP. This makes the Glenn Beck demographics a minority within a minority within the context of the GOP.
Thats why I said "at best". Its probably much lower than that, but the squeeky wheel gets the grease.
| 141 |
The Sanity Inspector Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:43:03am |
re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist
Please note--THIS is why some of us think that the rightwing crazies have more big-party influence than the leftwing crazies.
True enough. We don't see the Dems kissing up to Air America, that's for sure.
| 142 |
Randall Gross Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:43:19am |
re: #117 AJStrata
Negative feedback loop. But realize the people with the money to invest or donate are not rabid. There will come a point where the far right is just talking to itself.
If you note the last election the rabid right is losing and the moderates are wining primaries. To the point where the far right is trying to close down primaries.
Only sends more people into the Independent column - where there is more clout. Ity is better to be an independent who needs to be wooed than a beat up minority inside that shrinking tent.
Something will trigger a sea change - always does.
I do hope you are correct AJ, and I've promised to hang in and fight through 2010; but if the Religious Right socons are still leading the party by the nose at that point I will register D for the first time in my life. It will be painful, but I've got to go with a party that actually has a plan and outlook for the future. Moderates do need to stand up more and start speaking, and I'm about to start. Look for me to make some unfriends soon.
| 143 |
SFGoth Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:43:22am |
re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Wasn't born a US Citizen.
LOL, I won't go there. F*ck. Then I'm writing myself in. At least I know exactly what I'm getting. Oh wait, I was born in Thailand, though my Dad was on diplomatic duty for the State Dept. The hell with it, it's a protest vote.
| 144 |
SFGoth Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:43:56am |
re: #141 The Sanity Inspector
True enough. We don't see the Dems kissing up to Air America, that's for sure.
No one does - that's why the ratings are in the toilet.
| 145 |
Ben Hur Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:44:49am |
re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist
Please note--THIS is why some of us think that the rightwing crazies have more big-party influence than the leftwing crazies.
| 146 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:45:07am |
re: #128 SixDegrees
Once the DNC stopped granting those folks the spotlight and shoved them into the closet, they started winning elections again. They lost in 2002 and 2004 because the loons you mention, and others, were front-and-center in the national attention.
The credit for that shift belongs to Howard Dean, who recognized that allowing the flaming assholes to dominate the stage was costing the party dearly at the polling booth.
The GOP is repeating exactly the same mistakes, without a hint of having learned from their opposition.
Oh sure... the 2008 Democratic National Convention...
"12:15 am "Truth in Broadcasting Award" - Presented to Dan Rather by Michael Moore "
Yea, he wasn't a presence anymore.
[Link: www.capveterans.com...]
| 147 |
abbyadams Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:45:19am |
re: #138 tradewind
I agree with this :
Even if Obama makes them unhappy, they'll remember The Bush and pull together to avoid a Republican return to the WH in '12.
but nothing else. I read Kos sometimes (gasp) and the mood there and other left blogs was VERY contentious. People screamed and left and threatened to take toys and go home. The marching song was actually 'fall in love during the primaries, fall in line during the general.'
There was no unity among the left until well after August.
| 148 |
Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:45:26am |
re: #128 SixDegrees
Exactly - Dean was never the (pardon the pun) Screaming Liberal nutjob the "Mass Media" portrayed him as.
He slowly cut the nut jobs adrift and recruited Conciece Conservatives who could win in the south while pushing a toned down message and protectionism.
| 149 |
MrSilverDragon Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:46:10am |
re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Wasn't born a US Citizen.
Krauthammer was born in NYC in 1950. He's viable.
| 150 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:46:25am |
| 151 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:46:28am |
re: #146 Walter L. Newton
Oh sure... the 2008 Democratic National Convention...
"12:15 am "Truth in Broadcasting Award" - Presented to Dan Rather by Michael Moore "
Yea, he wasn't a presence anymore.
[Link: www.capveterans.com...]
Walter, you do realize thats a joke schedule, right?
| 152 |
Gus Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:46:36am |
re: #140 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Thats why I said "at best". Its probably much lower than that, but the squeeky wheel gets the grease.
Right.
David Frum brings this up briefly at Bloggingheads TV:
| 153 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:46:49am |
re: #146 Walter L. Newton
Oh sure... the 2008 Democratic National Convention...
"12:15 am "Truth in Broadcasting Award" - Presented to Dan Rather by Michael Moore "
Yea, he wasn't a presence anymore.
[Link: www.capveterans.com...]
I forgot the sarcasm tag///
| 154 |
Ojoe Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:47:08am |
| 155 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:47:15am |
| 156 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:47:25am |
re: #149 MrSilverDragon
Krauthammer was born in NYC in 1950. He's viable.
Just checked and you're right. I thought someone said he was born in Canada. My mistake.
| 157 |
Jack Burton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:48:05am |
re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
So how long till Ojoe posts about the Whigs?
43 minutes apparently.
| 158 |
Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:48:08am |
re: #125 tradewind
A dinner party with George Will?
Yeah, just the same as a two and a half hour briefing with no other activity scheduled.
It lasted two and a half hours
[Link: www.politico.com...]
Obama Tuesday night trekked to the Chevy Chase, Md., home of conservative columnist George F. Will to talk politics and get to know some of his fiercest intellectual adversaries: Charles Krauthammer, William Kristol, Larry Kudlow, David Brooks, Rich Lowry, Peggy Noonan, Michael Barone, and Paul Gigot.
| 159 |
Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:48:25am |
re: #138 tradewind
the nettiest of the Net Roots are angry and feel betrayed - i'm not saying there will be a challenger - just that their maybe someone put up in NH to keep the flag flying for Single Payer, Union Rights etc.
| 160 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:48:33am |
re: #137 bloodstar
Hey Dede, doing ok with that knife in your back?
Well, if I could have supported Hoffman before, there's no way I would now, he's been tainted by Bachmann. :)
Dick Armey, tea party promoter, endorsed Hoffman too. Any Republican who thought they would benefit from tea parties was a fool.
| 161 |
jayzee Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:48:49am |
re: #102 wozzablog
Never watched Fox And Friends then...? ;-)
Fox News coverage is badly slanted...
[Link: mediamatters.org...]If Fox News during its indepth analysis of why the WH wasn't talking to them had actually aired Glen Beck's "Racist" controversy... then i could halfway agree with you.
Fox and friends is news? C'mon. And I'm not saying that there is NO slant even in the straight news, just that it doesn't matter. I don't care about MSNBCs slant or Foxs slant or CNNs or any of them really. I'll watch what I choose. BUT it is irresponsible and wrong IMHO for a government official to come out for (like Pence did) or against (like Obama did) any specific media in an official way.
| 163 |
SixDegrees Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:49:19am |
re: #146 Walter L. Newton
Oh sure... the 2008 Democratic National Convention...
"12:15 am "Truth in Broadcasting Award" - Presented to Dan Rather by Michael Moore "
Yea, he wasn't a presence anymore.
[Link: www.capveterans.com...]
That isn't the point. The DNC stopped paying attention to them and broke the association in the public mind between the goofballs like Sheehan and Moore and their party.
The GOP needs to take a clue from this and, at a minimum, stop dropping to their knees to suck Moore's and Beck's cocks. Or, rationalize the view from the sidelines, where they'll be once they've driven the vast middle of the electorate away retching in disgust.
| 164 |
rollwave87 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:49:42am |
re: #3 _RememberTonyC
Dear Mitt Romney:
We need an adult to lead us. Please phone home.
Sincerely Yours,
The moderate right of center sane Americans
I agree with the sentiment, but I'm not sure how you conclude that Romney, who just spoke at the hate-based 'Value Voter' conference, is the guy who represents it.
on a related note, did anyone see Frum's latest excellent column? [Link: www.theweek.com...]
| 165 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:49:49am |
re: #151 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Walter, you do realize thats a joke schedule, right?
But Moore was certainly was visible with the Democratic Party. He was in a Skybox with Jimmy Carter at the 2008 convention.
| 166 |
Boondock St. Bender Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:49:56am |
time to go to work...ugh...play nice everyone!
| 167 |
Ben Hur Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:50:29am |
re: #163 SixDegrees
That isn't the point. The DNC stopped paying attention to them and broke the association in the public mind between the goofballs like Sheehan and Moore and their party.
The GOP needs to take a clue from this and, at a minimum, stop dropping to their knees to suck Moore's and Beck's cocks. Or, rationalize the view from the sidelines, where they'll be once they've driven the vast middle of the electorate away retching in disgust.
Well, except for the handful of Dem Pols that went to his new movie premier.
| 168 |
Randall Gross Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:50:39am |
re: #160 wrenchwench
Dick Armey, tea party promoter, endorsed Hoffman too. Any Republican who thought they would benefit from tea parties was a fool.
Hoffman's also been endorsed by the Nativists: Michelle Malkin's in all out attack mode on Scozzafava and the Minutemen endorsed her opponent. Anyone the minutemen endorse is a candidate to vote against in my book.
| 169 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:50:52am |
re: #49 bloodstar
What happens is there is a fight for the center. Specifically, we get back to the concept of a center left and a center right party with the crazies of playing in their own little world. Right now there are a ton of disaffected independents who would be ripe to jump onto a center right party.
This is what gave us Sarah palin: there were serious rumblings among fundamentalist Christians that they would field their own candidate if McCain got nominated because he was not conservative enough for their tastes on abortion and "family values".
So how to they reach enough of the right-of-center mainstream without alienating the extreme right and still come up with enough votes to regain power?
That is the question they will have to ask themselves. Sort of reminds me of the polar opposite of the great debate in the Green party in Germany on wether to keep to their ideals or join in the coalition and actually govern...
| 170 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:51:03am |
Hate mail is really flowing in today. I have nine abusive emails already.
Anyone who uses my contact form to send me a hate mail full of insults will find their IP blocked from accessing LGF.
| 171 |
pdc_lgf Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:51:26am |
re: #146 Walter L. Newton
As a guy who votes for Democrats almost always, and who hangs with the same ilk, I can tell you my own experience. Folks like us just don't care all that much about the excitement that comes from the ins-and-outs of partisan politics - on our side. Of course, plenty of us are prepared to get all hot and bothered about what the right-wing guys on the other side of the street say and do. But what happens on our side of the street just doesn't interest particularly.
I'm not saying that it's good or proper. It's just how things are, to a large extent.
| 172 |
Ben Hur Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:51:30am |
re: #167 Ben Hur
Well, except for the handful of Dem Pols that went to his new movie premier.
Which I guess shows that either the movie sucked, it doesn't attack Bush or Moore isn't useful presently.
| 173 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:51:33am |
re: #170 Charles
Hate mail is really flowing in today. I have nine abusive emails already.
Anyone who uses my contact form to send me a hate mail full of insults will find their IP blocked from accessing LGF.
As well you should.
| 174 |
Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:51:39am |
re: #165 Walter L. Newton
But Moore was certainly was visible with the Democratic Party. He was in a Skybox with Jimmy Carter at the 2008 convention.
After backing Ralph Nader in 2000. Bastard.
| 175 |
fizzlogic Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:51:55am |
It's a bizarre world conservatism and the GOP live in.
[Link: dyn.politico.com...]
| 176 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:52:31am |
re: #174 Conservative Moonbat
After backing Ralph Nader in 2000. Bastard.
Moore backing Nader
NOT a pretty picture!!
/
| 177 |
The Sanity Inspector Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:52:56am |
re: #78 Boondock St. Bender
oohh hey kilgore,did i mention to you before,that i just built my first guitar?
Post a pic!
| 178 |
MrSilverDragon Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:53:00am |
re: #170 Charles
Hate mail is really flowing in today. I have nine abusive emails already.
Anyone who uses my contact form to send me a hate mail full of insults will find their IP blocked from accessing LGF.
I'm still stimeyed by the fact that disagreement leads to hate, and not rational discussion. Then again, I live in my own little imperfect world.
| 179 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:53:33am |
re: #178 MrSilverDragon
I'm still stimeyed by the fact that disagreement leads to hate, and not rational discussion. Then again, I live in my own little imperfect world.
America in the XXI century, welcome to it...
| 180 |
Ben Hur Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:53:36am |
re: #175 trendsurfer
It's a bizarre world conservatism and the GOP live in.
[Link: dyn.politico.com...]
Seems like both parties are worried.
[Link: thehill.com...]
| 182 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:54:05am |
re: #164 rollwave87
I agree with the sentiment, but I'm not sure how you conclude that Romney, who just spoke at the hate-based 'Value Voter' conference, is the guy who represents it.
on a related note, did anyone see Frum's latest excellent column? [Link: www.theweek.com...]
nobody is perfect, but he has largely distanced himself from the crazies. Obama spoke to comparable groups on the left and was not punished at the ballot box.
| 183 |
SixDegrees Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:54:30am |
re: #167 Ben Hur
Well, except for the handful of Dem Pols that went to his new movie premier.
Fahrenheit 911 opened just before the 2004 elections, in what Moore was certain would be a fatal blow to Bush's reelection. It was not well received, even by his normally fawning media groupies, many of whom openly criticized it as a hatchet job.
His next announcement was of a project that would celebrate Hillary Clinton, in an open attempt to win her election to the White House. It never saw the light of day; I have little doubt that Moore received a number of blunt contacts from various Clintonistas warning him of immediate emasculation if he so much as thought about such a project again.
| 184 |
fizzlogic Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:54:55am |
re: #176 sattv4u2
Y'all should read Matt Taibbi today: Elizabeth Warren for President
All is not well on the left ...
| 185 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:55:05am |
re: #176 sattv4u2
Moore backing Nader
NOT a pretty picture!!
/
kind of like evan handler backing kathleen turner on Californication?
| 186 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:55:09am |
Goldstone challenges US to spell out Gaza war report flaws
DUBAI — The author of a UN report accusing Israel and the Palestinian Hamas group of war crimes in the Gaza conflict challenged the United States on Thursday to justify its charge that the findings were flawed.
"I have yet to hear from the (Barack) Obama administration what the flaws in the report that they have identified are," South African former international war crimes prosecutor Richard Goldstone told Al-Jazeera television.
"I would be happy to respond to them, if and when I know what they are," added the jurist who led a fact-finding mission on the 22-day conflict that erupted on December 27, 2008.
"The Obama administration joined our recommendation calling for full and good-faith investigations, both in Israel and in Gaza, but said that the report was flawed," he said.
| 187 |
The Sanity Inspector Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:55:10am |
re: #120 tradewind
If Fox is not a news site, and no other MSM bothered to look into the ACORN abomination, does that mean it's really not news?
If an organization commits crimes and fraud in a news vacuum, does that mean there's no crime, or just no news?
There's that river in Egypt , overflowing its banks again.
The main beneficiaries of vote fraud in this country are urban Democratic machines, hence the wink-chuckle response from the MSM.
| 188 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:55:27am |
re: #78 Boondock St. Bender
oohh hey kilgore,did i mention to you before,that i just built my first guitar?
Congratulations! How did it come out? What did you make?
I still have a few of my early guitars. They're pretty bad and I can never sell them but I just can't bring myself to feed them through the bandsaw and throw them away.
| 189 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:55:31am |
re: #120 tradewind
If Fox is not a news site, and no other MSM bothered to look into the ACORN abomination, does that mean it's really not news?
I don't consider the ACORN scandal news. It's a very minor issue, that's been drummed up into a huge scandal for political purposes.
| 190 |
lurking faith Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:55:35am |
re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Wasn't born a US Citizen.
Wrong. He was raised in Canada, but born in New York City.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
| 191 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:55:44am |
BTW, Strata came back with more truly insane lies, on his AGW post.
Again, I am responding politely to him.
He stands by his insane claim that the NASA satellites are not showing warming...
I ask one quick thought experiment:
How is you are the only person to claim that?
The data is published and of course it shows warming, the scientists - real scientists, say the data shows warming, and even the most ardent political foes of AGW are silent on this false claim.
Wouldn't someone like say Palin herself be jumping up and down and screaming that the satellites did not show any warming if it was even close to true?
Yet only he is doing it.
His false claims about tenth of a degree sensitivity were also roundly debunked by showing papers that have thousands of citations between them, yet he keeps repeating the claim.
I'll just keep posting the papers.
| 192 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:55:55am |
re: #171 pdc_lgf
As a guy who votes for Democrats almost always, and who hangs with the same ilk, I can tell you my own experience. Folks like us just don't care all that much about the excitement that comes from the ins-and-outs of partisan politics - on our side. Of course, plenty of us are prepared to get all hot and bothered about what the right-wing guys on the other side of the street say and do. But what happens on our side of the street just doesn't interest particularly.
I'm not saying that it's good or proper. It's just how things are, to a large extent.
Anecdotal. The proliferation of progressive media, pundits, blogs, websites, activists speak volumes against what is your experience.
Then why are you commenting on a blog like LGF?
| 193 |
Political Atheist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:55:57am |
re: #186 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Lucky they ain't asking me...
| 194 |
Ben Hur Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:56:35am |
re: #183 SixDegrees
Fahrenheit 911 opened just before the 2004 elections, in what Moore was certain would be a fatal blow to Bush's reelection. It was not well received, even by his normally fawning media groupies, many of whom openly criticized it as a hatchet job.
His next announcement was of a project that would celebrate Hillary Clinton, in an open attempt to win her election to the White House. It never saw the light of day; I have little doubt that Moore received a number of blunt contacts from various Clintonistas warning him of immediate emasculation if he so much as thought about such a project again.
Farhrenheit 911 was very well received, very extensively covered and pushed by the MSM, Dem senators, etc were at screenings all the time and he had the seat of honor at the Dem convention.
| 195 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:56:54am |
Ten hate mails now. The latest one comes from a BNP fan:
Did I not read carefully enough, because I didn't see your condemnation of the bad, crazy violence directed at BBC for interviewing someone?
Hypocrite.
| 196 |
Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:56:54am |
re: #178 MrSilverDragon
I'm still stimeyed by the fact that disagreement leads to hate, and not rational discussion. Then again, I live in my own little imperfect world.
Read this
The Eliminationists: How Hate Talk Radio Radicalized the American Right
| 197 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:57:02am |
re: #176 sattv4u2
Moore backing Nader
NOT a pretty picture!!
/
During that election, I was working for a magazine editor (Michael Lerner, it's a long story) who had eagerly endorsed--hell, canonized--Nader. I mostly remember the Nader campaign for their ferocious fax updates, which rolled in at all hours. "In breaking news, RALPH NADER woke up this morning, and is still a great guy".
Meanwhile, I was taking angry phone calls all day long from upset Democrats who read Tikkun. It was a dismal time. Got worse at the point where I flatly refused to accompany Rabbi Lerner to the 'shadow convention'.
| 198 |
MandyManners Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:57:43am |
re: #145 Ben Hur
Eugene Robinson, E.J. Dionne, Ron Brownstein, John Dickerson, Frank Rich, Jerry Seib, Maureen Dowd, Bob Herbert, Gloria Borger, and Gwen Ifill.
| 199 |
SixDegrees Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:57:45am |
re: #172 Ben Hur
Which I guess shows that either the movie sucked, it doesn't attack Bush or Moore isn't useful presently.
It pretty much tanked in the US, but I think it was aimed at the European market anyway, where Moore spends much of his time and is considered to be a hero of some sort.
His premiere certainly didn't go over well at all with the press. The blatant hypocrisy of making a film critical of capitalism and holding a reception at a swank New York penthouse catered by gourmet chefs was too much even for his remaining fans, apparently.
| 200 |
MrSilverDragon Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:58:00am |
re: #194 Ben Hur
Farhrenheit 911 was very well received, very extensively covered and pushed by the MSM, Dem senators, etc were at screenings all the time and he had the seat of honor at the Dem convention.
..and personally, I thought it was an absolutely terrible movie. Right up there with "Reefer Madness" with the bullshit it was touting.
| 201 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:58:07am |
re: #184 trendsurfer
Y'all should read Matt Taibbi today: Elizabeth Warren for President
All is not well on the left ...
Is it ever?
| 202 |
Ben Hur Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:58:21am |
re: #199 SixDegrees
It pretty much tanked in the US, but I think it was aimed at the European market anyway, where Moore spends much of his time and is considered to be a hero of some sort.
His premiere certainly didn't go over well at all with the press. The blatant hypocrisy of making a film critical of capitalism and holding a reception at a swank New York penthouse catered by gourmet chefs was too much even for his remaining fans, apparently.
Effen A.
| 203 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:58:29am |
re: #191 LudwigVanQuixote
OT - I'm starting not to care anymore, not about AGW, but your fights.
Now, back to the subject and the comments that have been spured by the subject... "House Republican Chairman Praises Limbaugh, Beck"
Over.
| 204 |
SFGoth Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:58:51am |
re: #156 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Just checked and you're right. I thought someone said he was born in Canada. My mistake.
Woohoo! Votin' Krauthammer!
| 205 |
The Sanity Inspector Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:59:08am |
re: #178 MrSilverDragon
I'm still stimeyed by the fact that disagreement leads to hate, and not rational discussion. Then again, I live in my own little imperfect world.
It's one of the enduring mysteries of the world for some people: how two people can be intelligent, informed, and honest--and yet still disagree. After I accepted this remarkable phenomenon, my political life's been a lot less stressful.
To let politics become a cesspool, and then avoid it because it is a cesspool, is a double crime.
-- Howard Crosby, 19thC American clergyman
| 206 |
Political Atheist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:59:16am |
re: #187 The Sanity Inspector
How did you sort out the partisan driven research on that? I spent some time on that. Its a blizzard of claims and counter claims... By definition fraud canno reall be counted except when caught. How do you figure in the balance?
| 207 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:59:29am |
re: #107 pdc_lgf
Purists are like Malkin and others who will drive you out of the picture of you dare cross them. If they utter the phrase "RINO" they are a purist.
They want a small, ideologically pure (and completely impotent) party. One Senator (CJ will remember) even said last year he would take 15 true conservatives over a governing majority. Sort of stunning isn't it?
Purists rage against diversity of not only priorities and goals, but methods. My favorite targets are what I call the Amnesty Hypochondriacs (again Malkin is a prime example). These people want to deport immigrants. They want the forced out one way or the other, very nativist.
We both may agree we need to address the illegal immigration problem, it is a high priority and should not include fast tracking to US citizenship. But that is where the common ground (and civility) ends.
I felt the Bush-McCain-Kennedy comprehensive immigration reform was great. It included punishment in the form of repayment of back taxes and a fine (to the Amnesty Hypochondriacs this paper work misdemeanor class punishment was not harsh enough). It included responsibilities being laid on employers and the government to provide ways to verify the worker was authorized. It provide limits on how long the immigrant worker stayed. It provided a path to citizenship for long term illegals who met their obligations, but did not allow them to jump ahead of others. It included a one-felony-strike and your out for good clause to cull the hard core criminals out.
All in all it was a beauty of centrist common sense. The far right purists went ape! The Amnesty Hypochondriacs went on a purity war, trying to purge anyone who supported the bill from any leadership or say or anything.
That's a purist. They want to distill the GOP down into their own private echo chamber, replete with a hall of mirrors so they can pretend to represent America.
| 208 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:59:48am |
re: #192 Walter L. Newton
Anecdotal. The proliferation of progressive media, pundits, blogs, websites, activists speak volumes against what is your experience.
Not really. I think you can say that most people are not involved in this sort of thing, no matter how many media, pundits, websites, etc. there are.
| 209 |
Ben Hur Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:59:51am |
re: #198 MandyManners
Eugene Robinson, E.J. Dionne, Ron Brownstein, John Dickerson, Frank Rich, Jerry Seib, Maureen Dowd, Bob Herbert, Gloria Borger, and Gwen Ifill.
Even combined these are minor players compared to Rush Limbaugh in the influencing public opinion arena.
| 210 |
MinisterO Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:00:11am |
| 211 |
The Sanity Inspector Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:00:37am |
re: #188 Killgore Trout
Congratulations! How did it come out? What did you make?
I still have a few of my early guitars. They're pretty bad and I can never sell them but I just can't bring myself to feed them through the bandsaw and throw them away.
How many future great talents got their start by learning on a cast-off guitar. Maybe you should donate them to Goodwill or something.
| 212 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:00:47am |
re: #114 Charles
Limbaugh is such a mixed bag. I find his insights quite good at times, his humor pretty funny, but he just doesn't represent a good leader for America. He is a quaint quirk, not a Ronald Reagan
| 213 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:01:42am |
re: #207 AJStrata
Just my opinion, but can Ludwig and yourself take this argument back to the thread where it came from. Over the last two days, Ludwig and others have dragged and stalked this argument back and forth, thread to thread, interrupting actual discussions.
And over the last two days, a lot of Lizards have stated their opinion on how annoying this is getting.
Consider.
| 214 |
The Sanity Inspector Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:01:50am |
re: #207 AJStrata
A belated welcome to you, btw.
| 215 |
fizzlogic Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:01:59am |
re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist
What's interesting is I find myself agreeing with Taibbi. I'm turning into a radical leftist. :) To think, ten years ago I had been a radical polar opposite. Hell, back in the '90s I supported Phil Gramm for President. :O
| 216 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:02:03am |
re: #203 Walter L. Newton
Walter,
This case isn't a fight per se. I fight with Bagua - and even that I am sick of. Really I am sick of it. I am certain to just gaze on that from no on, or simple politely respond that he is incorrect. you have my promise.
This is about someone who is presenting himself with the authority of NASA while just posting insane lies. It can not be left to stand. I am also not snarking at him.
The fact is he is just lying. Lot's of people read these boards. THis isn't about you.
I am not going to let Stata turn this place into a denier propaganda site.
| 217 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:02:10am |
re: #211 The Sanity Inspector
They really aren't playable.
| 218 |
SixDegrees Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:02:28am |
re: #194 Ben Hur
Farhrenheit 911 was very well received, very extensively covered and pushed by the MSM, Dem senators, etc were at screenings all the time and he had the seat of honor at the Dem convention.
The reviews were, at best, mixed. But that's not the point; it was the aftermath, with Bush not only winning by widening his margin, that woke the Dems up that pandering to the nuts was costing them elections. Let's face it: the Dems absolutely should have won in 2004, across the board, without even breaking a sweat, and they tanked. Much of the credit goes to the looney toons sideshow freaks who were doing exactly what the GOP is doing now: grabbing all the attention they could and engaging in increasingly bizarre and insane behavior. It was a huge turn off for a huge number of voters, and it wasn't until Dean started duct-taping their mouths shut that the Dems started winning again.
| 219 |
filetandrelease Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:02:48am |
As a conservative Republican, the way I see it, we have the leaders of the party who don't speak for me on one end of the spectrum,and these fringe elements on the other end, who don't speak for me. I believe the Republican base is in the middle, with no voice.
| 220 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:02:50am |
re: #213 Walter L. Newton
Just my opinion, but can Ludwig and yourself take this argument back to the thread where it came from. Over the last two days, Ludwig and others have dragged and stalked this argument back and forth, thread to thread, interrupting actual discussions.
And over the last two days, a lot of Lizards have stated their opinion on how annoying this is getting.
Consider.
I'm sorry, delete this. I'm getting so mad at Ludwig, I thought your comment was a more AGW arguing.
My apology.
| 221 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:02:59am |
re: #207 AJStrata
Ahh there you are... Let's go down stairs... I have pointed out about another three distortions and lies of yours.
See you there.
| 222 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:02:59am |
| 223 |
pdc_lgf Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:03:15am |
re: #207 AJStrata
OK. Thanks. I got it. The usage refers to pure positions and methods. It doesn't mean pure form of conservatism, like being a libertarian.
It's sort of analogous to the "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality of the 11pm news? I mean, there has to be a punitive element, in order to be "pure"?
| 224 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:03:21am |
re: #213 Walter L. Newton
Can I down ding myself? Please.
| 225 |
dogggy Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:03:40am |
Although I admit the Glen Beck is a little of the rail referring to Rush Limbaugh as a race baiter is absurd. I have listened to him for the last nine years and I have never heard him go over the line. Only when he is quoted out of context on purpose do those race hustlers try to demonize him.
| 226 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:04:00am |
| 227 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:04:23am |
| 228 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:04:59am |
| 229 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:05:21am |
re: #191 LudwigVanQuixote
For the sake of everyhting that is sweetness and good, will you please get a hobby!
Bird watching is soothing ,,, stamp collecting ,,,
geeezz Louise ,,,
| 230 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:05:28am |
re: #225 dogggy
I've been a Dittohead for nigh on 20 years, and even I know that he's made some outlandish and even out-and-out racist remarks on his show. Go away.
| 231 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:05:50am |
re: #191 LudwigVanQuixote
Ludwig Von Beck,
Stop bothering these good people with your rants. Go back to the nearly dead thread and show us a link to sat data showing warming for 30 years!
Geez, how hard is that?
| 232 |
lurking faith Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:06:09am |
re: #224 Walter L. Newton
Can I down ding myself? Please.
No, but you can report your own comment if you want it deleted.
| 233 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:06:13am |
re: #229 sattv4u2
For the sake of everyhting that is sweetness and good, will you please get a hobby!
Bird watching is soothing ,,, stamp collecting ,,,
geeezz Louise ,,,
Fine yes, couldn't wait to join the chorus could you?
| 234 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:06:21am |
re: #214 The Sanity Inspector
Many thanks - glad to be here.
| 236 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:06:44am |
re: #218 SixDegrees
The reviews were, at best, mixed. But that's not the point; it was the aftermath, with Bush not only winning by widening his margin, that woke the Dems up that pandering to the nuts was costing them elections. Let's face it: the Dems absolutely should have won in 2004, across the board, without even breaking a sweat, and they tanked. Much of the credit goes to the looney toons sideshow freaks who were doing exactly what the GOP is doing now: grabbing all the attention they could and engaging in increasingly bizarre and insane behavior. It was a huge turn off for a huge number of voters, and it wasn't until Dean started duct-taping their mouths shut that the Dems started winning again.
2004 was for the Republicans wht the Alamo was for Santa Ana or Pearl Harbor for the japanese: a great victory that contained the seeds of their demise.
The smear campaigns, the looney-pandering and spreading outright lies worked agains Kerry because people, well, didn't like him very much. Even folks who supported his party and his politics.
But Obama has a different charm: for eveery right-wing who hates him with a passion for who he is and what he stands for, there are many more who might disagree with his politics but admire him as a symbol of what America stands for: domeone who rose from humble origins through hard work and initiative, someone who is educated, erudite and generally admirable as a human being.
Which means that the tactics tht won the Republicans 2004 flew back in their faces, and they seem to have intensified rather than eased up on them.
| 237 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:07:07am |
re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote
Fine yes, couldn't wait to join the chorus could you?
In that there IS a chorus ,, you may want to consider it!
| 238 |
Velvet Elvis Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:07:16am |
Man Charged With Making Coffee Naked
The person peering into his window at 5:30 in the morning remains uncharged.
| 239 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:08:01am |
re: #231 AJStrata
Ludwig Von Beck,
Stop bothering these good people with your rants. Go back to the nearly dead thread and show us a link to sat data showing warming for 30 years!
Geez, how hard is that?
It was posted yesterday.
As was a debunking of you lies about the data, and an answer to your insane and false challenge about 1 degree sensitivities.
Also, I really am not calling you names or saying Dude or any such thing.
I am pointing out that you are lying though.
Also, really, you believe in death panels and you call me Beck?
| 240 |
pdc_lgf Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:08:03am |
re: #227 Walter L. Newton
Walter, ding me too. What I wrote just now is borderline incomprehensible - to me, I mean. I'm gonna go outside, smoke a cigarette, drink some coffee. If I can formulate what I meant (in my reply to AJ S), I'll give it another shot.
| 241 |
The Sanity Inspector Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:08:22am |
re: #206 Rightwingconspirator
How did you sort out the partisan driven research on that? I spent some time on that. Its a blizzard of claims and counter claims... By definition fraud canno reall be counted except when caught. How do you figure in the balance?
In the absence of serious, sustained investigation by the major news outlets, it is indeed difficult to sort the claims out. Which is why I wish more attention would be given to it, even if it means going primarily after Democratic strongholds.
| 242 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:08:30am |
re: #237 sattv4u2
In that there IS a chorus ,, you may want to consider it!
No it's you walter and BAgs...
But that is OK...
| 243 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:08:31am |
re: #238 Conservative Moonbat
Man Charged With Making Coffee Naked
The person peering into his window at 5:30 in the morning remains uncharged.
ready for "cream in your coffe" jokes, anyone?
| 244 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:09:29am |
re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote
Fine yes, couldn't wait to join the chorus could you?
He couldn't. And, if you hadn't noticed, the chorus over the last two days have gained in size. Barley no one here has any problem with your AGW positions, even those that don't agree. But can't you get it into your head that your flaming, screaming, vile invective and thread stalking is becoming annoying?
Just stop it, or, in my opinion, start your own blog and you can do what ever you want.
But stop shitting on us.
| 245 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:09:34am |
re: #238 Conservative Moonbat
Man Charged With Making Coffee Naked
The person peering into his window at 5:30 in the morning remains uncharged.
Well, damn. Can't blame the naked coffee guy though. I'm quite dead until I have coffee!
///I wouldn't have called the cops...
| 246 |
The Sanity Inspector Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:10:04am |
| 247 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:10:45am |
re: #238 Conservative Moonbat
Man Charged With Making Coffee Naked
The person peering into his window at 5:30 in the morning remains uncharged.
Great. I am SO in trouble now. When my cantankerous next-door-neighbor reads this, she'll probably be stalking my house with a motion-sensitive camera, hoping to catch me on camera waking up in the morning or something. ///
| 248 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:10:48am |
re: #231 AJStrata
Ludwig Von Beck,
Stop bothering these good people with your rants. Go back to the nearly dead thread and show us a link to sat data showing warming for 30 years!
Geez, how hard is that?
Global Warming Frequently Asked Questions
Recent analyses of temperature trends in the lower and mid- troposphere (between about 2,500 and 26,000 ft.) using both satellite and radiosonde (weather balloon) data show warming rates that are similar to those observed for surface air temperatures. These warming rates are consistent with their uncertainties and these analyses reconcile a discrepancy between warming rates noted on the IPCC Third Assessment Report (U.S. Climate Change Science Plan Synthesis and Assessment Report 1.1).
It's not hard to find more. You ARE misrepresenting the satellite data.
| 249 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:10:49am |
re: #242 LudwigVanQuixote
No it's you walter and BAgs...
But that is OK...
Short Term Memory loss much? You may want to go back to last nights thread (outragsous Outrage) starting around Post 200 and see it was more than just Walter and I asking (politely) for both of you to can it
| 250 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:10:55am |
re: #244 Walter L. Newton
Walter I am not shitting on you. I am sorry that you feel that way.
You are actually free to not mix in to an AGW discussion you know...
It is not as if you never go OT now is it?
| 251 |
dogggy Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:11:02am |
re: #230 thedopefishlivesIf i thought for a second that he was a racist I would not listen to him you will have to give specific examples if you are going to make a charge like that.
| 252 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:11:43am |
re: #251 dogggy
Thankfully, I don't have to. Search LGF for it and Charles has put it all in one convenient place.
| 253 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:11:44am |
re: #250 LudwigVanQuixote
Walter I am not shitting on you. I am sorry that you feel that way.
You are actually free to not mix in to an AGW discussion you know...
It is not as if you never go OT now is it?
Not by spitting, cursing, flaming and roggering a thread.
| 254 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:11:49am |
re: #251 dogggy
If i thought for a second that he was a racist I would not listen to him you will have to give specific examples if you are going to make a charge like that.
| 255 |
Randall Gross Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:12:03am |
re: #207 AJStrata
Yes, and the outcome they got was that they will go into an election year with immigration bills on Deck and the Dems in complete control of the debate and content. That strategy of theirs sure paid off. That debate will lock in the bircher base, but it will end by repulsing most moderates and independents since they will not be able to control the crazies and the hate.
| 256 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:12:23am |
re: #225 dogggy
That makes almost as much sense as the other post you have made in your two and a half years of lizardhood:
1093 dogggy12/08/2008 12:27:45 pm PSTI have one simple question for the evolutionists if they can answer this question to my satisfaction I will honestly take the evolutionary view. Here it is...Which came first the Chicken or the Egg?
| 257 |
Bagua Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:12:57am |
re: #242 LudwigVanQuixote
No it's you walter and BAgs...
But that is OK...
Ludwig, why are you insulting me and mocking my nick in a thread I'm not participating in? Please stop and play nice.
| 258 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:13:15am |
re: #248 Charles
That is true. He also denies that Carbon in the atmosphere can warm the climate. He made the standard ppm argument we've debunked here about a dozen times.
He denies the basic mechanisms.
As to his insane claim about the sensitivity of the data, I have linked multiple papers with thousands of citations showing that yes indeed, we do have better than .1 degree sensitivity, yet he keeps repeating we do not.
| 259 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:13:51am |
re: #142 Thanos
Thanos, Go I - make each side work for your support. I was D, came close to R under Bush, wouldn't dump my I for anything now.
| 260 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:14:42am |
re: #253 Walter L. Newton
Not by spitting, cursing, flaming and roggering a thread.
I am not spitting or cursing or rogering Walter.
Actually, my tone with Mr. Astra has been completely scientific over about 20 posts.
This is an important issue buddy.
Believe it or don't lots of others think that too.
| 261 |
Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:14:55am |
re: #145 Ben Hur
there was a Dinner the previous night with kristol, Gigot, Krauthammer and others...
[Link: www.politico.com...]
| 262 |
Randall Gross Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:15:15am |
re: #259 AJStrata
Thanos, Go I - make each side work for your support. I was D, came close to R under Bush, wouldn't dump my I for anything now.
It's a consideration, but I like working for the future, and if it takes registering D to do that, I will.
| 263 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:15:48am |
re: #225 dogggy
Although I admit the Glen Beck is a little of the rail referring to Rush Limbaugh as a race baiter is absurd. I have listened to him for the last nine years and I have never heard him go over the line. Only when he is quoted out of context on purpose do those race hustlers try to demonize him.
Get that bone out of your nose, kiddo, and get back to us.
//for the Lord's sake!
| 264 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:16:43am |
re: #257 Bagua
Ludwig, why are you insulting me and mocking my nick in a thread I'm not participating in? Please stop and play nice.
Bagua, I would now sincerely like to make peace and form a detante.
I was deeply offended by a number of things you wrote. I have made it clear why I was offended. I apologize for losing my cool with you when I was offended.
I did not handle it well.
In the mean time, I would appreciate that if you must critique, you use clearly defined points on the actual science, rather than making blanket claims about its veracity.
| 265 |
pdc_lgf Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:16:52am |
re: #207 AJStrata
I'll try to get it correct this time. This is a question posed as a statement. You mean a) extremism is equated with authenticity b) the extremism invariably contains a large punitive component?
E.g., the immigration compromise you cite. It was shot down because it was arguably reasonable? It didn't hurt the illegals enough?
| 266 |
Bagua Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:17:04am |
re: #260 LudwigVanQuixote
Bull, you called him a liar and a fraud in every comment, and now use bold to shout him down.
As Walter pointed out, most of us whom you yell at actually agree with you on most points, or rather, we agree with the actual science on most points.
| 267 |
dogggy Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:17:19am |
re: #256 wrenchwench I am not a fanatic about the evolution argument I am merely trying to understand the whole concept as a academic pursuit. I am willing to listen to any reasonable argument on either side. I wish those who favor the evolution side would drop the "Its science and the debate is over" ala ALgore and try to make the case for that argument.
| 268 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:19:24am |
re: #266 Bagua
Bull, you called him a liar and a fraud in every comment, and now use bold to shout him down.
As Walter pointed out, most of us whom you yell at actually agree with you on most points, or rather, we agree with the actual science on most points.
He is a fraud and a Liar. Those are about as strong a condemnation as any scientist can use.
He has lied directly when he said the satellites do not show warming.
That is a lie.
That is an easily checked lie.
In fact, Charles just made a post, where he checked it too.
| 269 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:19:29am |
re: #169 ralphieboy
Ralphie, that view of Palin is just dead wrong.
Palin actually attracts a lot of centrists. If you did not go to one of her campaign events you just cannot grasp what her draw really is. Palin pulled Puma's and Evangelicals. She is not a bible thumping zealot (myth created by the left).
She is an American mother. I have lived politics outside DC for years, and you cannot see the incredible crowds she drew in Northern Virginia (as purple as it comes) and not understand where she pulls. She pulls from center left to center right, and that is why each fringe is trying to taint here mercilessly.
Won't help.
| 271 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:20:33am |
re: #260 LudwigVanQuixote
LOL! yeah Dude, you've been an actual charmer, when you weren't call another poster a shit.
Grace in action Mad Ludwig. Grace in action.
| 272 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:20:51am |
re: #269 AJStrata
She is an American mother.
So is Nancy Pelosi, but that has never gotten her any slack from the pundits and the politicos. What the heck does that even mean?
| 273 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:21:03am |
re: #269 AJStrata
Charles too has pointed out that you are lying about the satellite data... Care to comment?
| 274 |
pdc_lgf Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:21:31am |
re: #267 dogggy
If you want to drag God into it - and I'm not saying you do - then a case would be the mountain of physical, tangible stuff that supports only one hypothesis; and that it was God who "ultimately" made that stuff - so the stuff shouldn't be disparaged in favor of some words in some books. If you want to keep God out of it, then you might have somewhat less respect for the evidence, but still - what other hypothesis does it support?
| 275 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:22:47am |
re: #271 AJStrata
LOL! yeah Dude, you've been an actual charmer, when you weren't call another poster a shit.
Grace in action Mad Ludwig. Grace in action.
Well actually I made the the mistake of getting offended by the D'oh's and other remarks you directed at friends.
I have since removed all such tone.
Now, It has been pointed out multiple times that you are lying about the satellite data when you claim it shows no warming or temperature increase.
Do you care to comment?
| 276 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:23:19am |
re: #213 Walter L. Newton
LOL! My Pleasure. Sorry it took me a while to wade this far down into the coments
| 277 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:23:23am |
re: #236 ralphieboy
You Sir, Win this thread. Very well said.
| 278 |
SixDegrees Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:23:24am |
re: #266 Bagua
Bull, you called him a liar and a fraud in every comment, and now use bold to shout him down.
As Walter pointed out, most of us whom you yell at actually agree with you on most points, or rather, we agree with the actual science on most points.
Completely agree.
Another thread hijacked by a juvenile delinquent. I'm going upstairs until the compulsion seizes him again and he starts polluting that thread.
| 279 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:23:44am |
re: #269 AJStrata
I saw Sarah as the price McCain had to pay for retaining the support of the fundamentalist wing of the party. Just look at the way she was foisted on his party and how well the two "worked" together...
She was supposed to play to the center by smiling, winking and just emodying whatever values people chose to project on her. It might've worked until her daughter got knocked up and it became clear that Sarah was not just gonna make her own daughter keep the kid, but she was darn well gonna make everybody's daughter keep their babies, whether they wanted to or not.
And that put off a lot of centrist Americans, who oppose abortion on principle but sorta wanna know that there is a bolt-hole just in case "abstinence only" doesn't work for their promise-breaking promise-keeper daughters...
| 280 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:24:00am |
re: #271 AJStrata
It has also been pointed out that you lied when you claimed there was no link between CO2 and temperature rise.
Would you care to comment?
| 281 |
webevintage Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:24:13am |
re: #269 AJStrata
She is an American mother. I have lived politics outside DC for years, and you cannot see the incredible crowds she drew in Northern Virginia (as purple as it comes) and not understand where she pulls. She pulls from center left to center right, and that is why each fringe is trying to taint here mercilessly.
Won't help.
I'm an American Mother too, can I haz a Governor job* now too?
*That I can quit when the job gets tough and I get a large advance from a publisher?
| 282 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:24:50am |
re: #221 LudwigVanQuixote
Dude, did you come armed with data or those throbbing frontal lobes!
| 283 |
avanti Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:25:52am |
re: #21 Killgore Trout
What are the projections of the NY election? It looks like that will be the test case.
From my link down thread.
| 284 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:26:32am |
re: #282 AJStrata
Dude, did you come armed with data or those throbbing frontal lobes!
Well actually I did, as did Charles...
You can look downstairs for it or right here even.
[Link: www.climatescience.gov...]
| 285 |
The Sanity Inspector Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:27:34am |
re: #241 The Sanity Inspector
In the absence of serious, sustained investigation by the major news outlets, it is indeed difficult to sort the claims out. Which is why I wish more attention would be given to it, even if it means going primarily after Democratic strongholds.
And yes, I realize how circular that sounds.
| 286 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:27:46am |
re: #223 pdc_lgf
There is no pure 'conservatism'. There is a conservative movement which can accept and support some common ground, and are willing to join in political organization to progress that ground.
Purists feel they can dictate that ground. They can't. You can't change people's beliefs. You can only join forces where those beliefs overlap, and enjoy the diversity where they don't. Purists want to tamp out the diversity - it makes them uncomfortable.
| 287 |
Jack Burton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:27:56am |
re: #269 AJStrata
Ralphie, that view of Palin is just dead wrong.
Palin actually attracts a lot of centrists. If you did not go to one of her campaign events you just cannot grasp what her draw really is. Palin pulled Puma's and Evangelicals. She is not a bible thumping zealot (myth created by the left).
She is an American mother. I have lived politics outside DC for years, and you cannot see the incredible crowds she drew in Northern Virginia (as purple as it comes) and not understand where she pulls. She pulls from center left to center right, and that is why each fringe is trying to taint here mercilessly.
Won't help.
As a former "fan" of Sarah Palin who has taken a very long, hard look at her and strove to be honest with myself, I can tell you that this is mostly bullshit if you pardon my French.
She scared the hell out of "centrists" during general election season. I know plenty who were leaning McCain until he picked her and then they ran for the hills. They believed the "myths created by the left". Those myths which turned out to be far closer to the truth than any of us thought. The left Forrest Gumped and 'fake but accurate'-ed their way to being almost right about her. Any centrist that was not turned off by her her before, should certainly be so now that we know far more about her.
Also, on a side note... There were no real PUMAs. That was a 15 minute long internet phenomenon that made zero difference in the general election.
| 288 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:28:30am |
re: #282 AJStrata
Dude, did you come armed with data or those throbbing frontal lobes!
Or you could look here from NOAA...
[Link: www.ncdc.noaa.gov...]
So where do you get the insane notion that the satellites don't show warming? In fact there are about 10 links downstairs.
| 289 |
doubter4444 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:29:26am |
re: #44 Charles
I saw that Wall street Journal editorial. More craziness. Their position is that a defeat for Scozzafava would teach the GOP that they need to lurch even farther to the right -- exactly the wrong lesson. So they write an editorial trying to make the defeat happen.
Sam Tanenhaus was right -- we're witnessing the death of conservatism. It's being replaced by revanchism and far right populism.
And, by the way, who owns the WSJ?
And who has a vested interest in keeping the crazy going... I always read, while not always agreeing with the WSJ in the past, and found there op-eds somewhat sane, conservative (small c) and fiscally oriented.
With Murdoch's purchase, the swing to the beckian right was swift and deep.
It's a real shame.
| 290 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:31:05am |
re: #275 LudwigVanQuixote
re: #278 SixDegrees
Completely agree.
Another thread hijacked by a juvenile delinquent. I'm going upstairs until the compulsion seizes him again and he starts polluting that thread.
LUD ,, and the chorus gets bigger
If photo evidence is any judge, looks as if SixDegrees would be in the alto section!
| 291 |
pdc_lgf Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:32:20am |
re: #286 AJStrata
OK. I thought you were talking about something different. You mean "pure" as in the sense "homogeneous."
| 292 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:32:26am |
re: #290 sattv4u2
I know you are enjoying this Satt.. thank you for you contribution.. I don't know how I will live with thinking you I am not popular with you, but I will get by.
| 293 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:33:46am |
re: #287 ArchangelMichael
Sarah had a lot of charm, but a many, even those who liked her as a person, looked on her as a lady who was doing fine governing a state with a population about the size of Albuquerue, NM, but not one to be entrusted with running a major world power.
| 294 |
Bagua Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:33:59am |
re: #264 LudwigVanQuixote
Bagua, I would now sincerely like to make peace and form a detante.
I was deeply offended by a number of things you wrote. I have made it clear why I was offended. I apologize for losing my cool with you when I was offended.
I did not handle it well.
In the mean time, I would appreciate that if you must critique, you use clearly defined points on the actual science, rather than making blanket claims about its veracity.
Great, I just saw your #264, that is all I have ever asked from you Ludwig. I am perfectly happy to debate my actual points in detail, that is why I participate. I also include extra disclaimers for your behalf.
If you refrain from insults and anger then we could make progress in understanding our respective positions. For my part, I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that I understand your position. I also believe (perhaps incorrectly) that you do not understand mine.
re: #273 LudwigVanQuixote
Charles too has pointed out that you are lying about the satellite data... Care to comment?
Charles said AJ is "misrepresenting" the data, you said Lied. Yes, misrepresentation can be lying, if done intentionally, however, often the other party is simply wrong or biased.
I know in my case I never intentionally lie, I just do not do that. I may be incorrect or confused or biased, but I do not lie and consider that inflammatory.
Now, may I respectfully request that you take this AGW discussion back to the thread it was being discussed on?
| 295 |
Jack Burton Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:34:04am |
re: #292 LudwigVanQuixote
I know you are enjoying this Satt.. thank you for you contribution.. I don't know how I will live with thinking you I am not popular with you, but I will get by.
| 296 |
doubter4444 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:34:44am |
re: #269 AJStrata
Ralphie, that view of Palin is just dead wrong.
Palin actually attracts a lot of centrists. If you did not go to one of her campaign events you just cannot grasp what her draw really is. Palin pulled Puma's and Evangelicals. She is not a bible thumping zealot (myth created by the left).
She is an American mother. I have lived politics outside DC for years, and you cannot see the incredible crowds she drew in Northern Virginia (as purple as it comes) and not understand where she pulls. She pulls from center left to center right, and that is why each fringe is trying to taint here mercilessly.
Won't help.
Hey, AJ.
I don't agree with a lot of what you say on your blog (nor about Global Warming, or Sarah Palin), but it's well thought out and not vitriolic, I respect that and that you don't seem to mindlessly march in lockstep with the right like so many others do.
Anyway, carry on.
| 297 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:36:37am |
re: #292 LudwigVanQuixote
I know you are enjoying this Satt.. thank you for you contribution.. I don't know how I will live with thinking you I am not popular with you, but I will get by.
Swingandamiss
Way to TOTALLY miss the point
"oh woe is me ,,, I'm not popular with satt"
NOT!
| 298 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:37:07am |
re: #291 pdc_lgf
OK. I thought you were talking about something different. You mean "pure" as in the sense "homogeneous."
If one is in possession of the Divine Truth, there is no room for differeing opinions, much less dissent. End of discussion: time for ranting and railing to begin.
| 299 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:40:51am |
re: #294 Bagua
You can ask about moving it.
And that is fine, I will ask you forbearance to deal with this fellow either here or there.
We should actually just have a beer sometime. You are the one poster here that I genuinely like, who none the less makes me want to strangle him.
As to misrepresent vs. lie,
Charles was being less blunt. However there are literally dozens of satellite missions that all show increasing temperature in one way or another. He claims that is not so. That is just a simple lie.
It is as much a lie as claiming that CO2 can't warm the atmosphere.
It really does place him in the same ranks as someone like Behe.
| 300 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:41:10am |
re: #248 Charles
Hey Charles,
Actually I am not misrepresenting the data. The data you linked to is not the raw data, it is processed, as the snippet you pulled notes:
... using both satellite and radiosonde (weather balloon) data show warming rates that are similar to those observed for surface air temperatures.
"Similar" is such a nice vague and unmeasurable term. And this data does not go back 30 years. As I noted in my other comments, the satellite data gets literally written over with other data to make it appear there is an identical warming trend. There is not. When the ground data is similar to the sat data they leave the sat data alone. When it diverges they add 'corrections' to the sat data. Since the sat data is one sensor suite making the same measurement around the globe this is wrong. Look for yourself:
Among the diverse kinds of data platforms whose data contribute to NCDC's resources are: Ships, buoys, weather stations, weather balloons, satellites, radar and many climate proxy records such as tree rings and ice cores.
Tree rings are not precise thermometers. Even the satellites have a 1 degree precision. If you look at the link I provided of a series of raw satellite data over the last few years there is no significant warming.
But even if there were, no one as shown they can derive a global temp index to a tenth of a degree that (a) represents the globe today, (b) the globe 100 year as ago and (c) what is normal. Until takes these three hypotheses and proves them to scientific acceptance - there data shows ups and downs of some degree which could or could not be normal!
Remember, my point about the satellites was how their precision was 'corrected' by integrating much lesser quality data. That is the core of the point.
Thanks for the link and taking the time to read the comments.
| 302 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:49:07am |
re: #300 AJStrata
Now this again is a lie. You are ow lying about what you said.
Let me refresh your memory and go on to the other false claims you have made here.
The satellite data (using a single calibrated instrument to measure all points on the globe) shows no significant warming.
And yet they do. To better than one degree precision for that matter.
If you care to look at the methodologies, you would know that.
| 303 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:49:13am |
re: #265 pdc_lgf
I'll try to get it correct this time. This is a question posed as a statement. You mean a) extremism is equated with authenticity b) the extremism invariably contains a large punitive component?
E.g., the immigration compromise you cite. It was shot down because it was arguably reasonable? It didn't hurt the illegals enough?
None of the above. Purists aren't always extremists (but the reverse is not true of course). And now, purists don't have to have a need to punish. Now if I look at Mad Ludwig here I could see how you could jump to these conclusions!
Purists cannot abide their pure vision of reality to be tainted. Some close their minds and reject obvious contradictory evidence, some have to attack diverse views, and others have to be in control and therefore purge or threaten others. The point is, they cannot allow their personal view to be challenged - the defense mechanism varies.
The far left and right purists each take turns explaining how incompetent the rational and patient centrists are - which is why governing ping pongs back and forth.
| 304 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:51:51am |
re: #272 SanFranciscoZionist
yeah, that was bit too short hand. Nancy is not Main Street. She is very wealthy and comes from a very far left viewpoint.
Palin connects to the center left and right moms and daughters. It really is something to see up front. Pumas to Evangelicals.
| 305 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:52:59am |
re: #275 LudwigVanQuixote
Like I said, your emotional outbreaks are a sign of your issues.
| 306 |
aagcobb Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:53:35am |
re: #267 dogggy
I am not a fanatic about the evolution argument I am merely trying to understand the whole concept as a academic pursuit. I am willing to listen to any reasonable argument on either side. I wish those who favor the evolution side would drop the "Its science and the debate is over" ala ALgore and try to make the case for that argument.
Evolutionary theory is an excellent academic pursuit. Here is a good resource explaining how all the evidence supports evolution.
| 307 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 11:58:44am |
re: #300 AJStrata
Again... now you are backpedaling...
Tree rings are not precise thermometers. Even the satellites have a 1 degree precision. If you look at the link I provided of a series of raw satellite data over the last few years there is no significant warming.
Are you going to pull the no warming since 1998 hoax?
Again your claims about tre rings or the hockey stick graphs are false and exaggerated.
There are vary many proxy sets in good agreement with each other.
I posted quite a few links from actual scientists on the methodologies involved and a link to the PDF of the assessment of the National Academy...
Surely you don't think the National Academy is full of hacks who all got it wrong do you?
Here are many many links in a complete debunking of your claims about the tree rings and data sensitivities.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Here is one in particular that stands out about how sensitive the measurements are.
[Link: www.ncof.gov.uk...]
This is about data back to 1850. It directly answers all of your challenges. There are many more studies like this, however, I chose this because the Pdf is available on the web.
Measurement error (ob) The random error
in a single thermometer reading is about
0.2C (1 ) [Folland et al., 2001]; the monthly
average will be based on at least two readings a
day throughout the month, giving 60 or more
values contributing to the mean. So the error
in the monthly average will be at most
0.2/p60 = 0.03C and this will be uncorrelated
with the value for any other station or
the value for any other month.
Of course that id for the older measurements, we are more precise today.
Then there is this on the sea based temperatures.
[Link: lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov...]
Again there are many more papers like this. Your claim about not having the needed sensitivity is also false.
| 308 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:00:29pm |
re: #279 ralphieboy
Ralphie,
What the hell is wrong with you? She does connect to religious families who keep Church or Synagogue deep in their family's lives.
Most centrists are religious (I am not). But what is this "knocked up" crap coming from? She is a wonderful young lady who had a boyfriend (who stabbed her in the back BTW) and is trying to make the best of a tough situation.
No one is going to hold that against Sarah or her daughter! Everyone has made mistakes and had to pick themselves up. Most of us simply pray her family makes it through all this (her daughter now a single mother, her son defending this country in war zones, her youngest challenged with Down Syndrome).
She was supposed to play to the center by smiling, winking and just emodying whatever values people chose to project on her. It might've worked until her daughter got knocked up and it became clear that Sarah was not just gonna make her own daughter keep the kid, but she was darn well gonna make everybody's daughter keep their babies, whether they wanted to or not.
She never once said anyone had to follow her or her family's path. You really need to step back and figure out why how they decided to face their challenges should make you cold, and others shake with fear. Was it her decision, or something inside the people who responded so wildly?
| 309 |
jayzee Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:00:54pm |
| 310 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:01:15pm |
re: #281 webevintage
yep, go convince enough voters to vote for you. Should be easy right?
| 311 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:01:21pm |
| 312 |
aagcobb Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:02:23pm |
re: #286 AJStrata
There is no pure 'conservatism'. There is a conservative movement which can accept and support some common ground, and are willing to join in political organization to progress that ground.
Purists feel they can dictate that ground. They can't. You can't change people's beliefs. You can only join forces where those beliefs overlap, and enjoy the diversity where they don't. Purists want to tamp out the diversity - it makes them uncomfortable.
The GOP's problem right now is that the "diversity" they are willing to accept includes racism, bircherism and birtherism, but not environmentalism or support for abortion rights or gay rights. The diversity which they won't tolerate is where the votes are available to pick up.
| 313 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:02:24pm |
re: #300 AJStrata
You are repeating climate change denier talking points that have been debunked for years. I don't know if you're deliberately misrepresenting the findings from satellite data or if you're honestly mistaken -- but you are simply wrong.
Here are some more links. It's easy to find more, as I said.
Key Argument for Global Warming Critics Evaporates
| 314 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:02:40pm |
re: #305 AJStrata
And yet, I am not getting emotional.
I have pointed out that you are making false claims and backing it up with the real data.
You on the other hand are talking about anything but the data... This is odd since you demanded it.
Of course you demanded it downstairs too and ignored it.
It is even more egregious, because you derive your authority from working at one of the agencies that actually collects this data.
So you should know about it. Yet you are willfully misrepresenting it. In fact you are caught in multiple lies.
PLease bring Sattelite data of your own that shows no warming.
Then we can discuss why you think that only a few parts per million of CO2 can have no effect, when the science on that issue was first discussed in 1896 and firmed up completely by the 30's.
The seminal papers on this are linked down stairs too.
| 315 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:03:13pm |
re: #287 ArchangelMichael
LOL! Losing you does not mean she is not attracting a lot of the center. I saw it many times and it is still there.
Just about everyone I know disturbed by her is on the fringe (left or right) or heading that way.
| 316 |
ryannon Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:03:43pm |
re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
So how long till Ojoe posts about the Whigs?
WhigCam!
We wanna see it!
| 317 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:04:14pm |
re: #308 AJStrata
Ralphie,
What the hell is wrong with you? She does connect to religious families who keep Church or Synagogue deep in their family's lives.
Most centrists are religious (I am not). But what is this "knocked up" crap coming from? She is a wonderful young lady who had a boyfriend (who stabbed her in the back BTW) and is trying to make the best of a tough situation.
No one is going to hold that against Sarah or her daughter! Everyone has made mistakes and had to pick themselves up. Most of us simply pray her family makes it through all this (her daughter now a single mother, her son defending this country in war zones, her youngest challenged with Down Syndrome).
She never once said anyone had to follow her or her family's path. You really need to step back and figure out why how they decided to face their challenges should make you cold, and others shake with fear. Was it her decision, or something inside the people who responded so wildly?
I'm not a Palin fan - I was, but I've been very disappointed in her for reasons other than her family issues.
But your answer here was on target, IMO.
| 318 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:04:34pm |
re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
and thats why their base is shrinking.
Electile Dysfunction (not original)
| 319 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:06:14pm |
re: #308 AJStrata
She never once said anyone had to follow her or her family's path.
Not in so many words, but Palin does back a constitutional amendment to outlaw abortion, and another constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage, so there's very little doubt that given the power, she absolutely would try to make everyone follow her idea of "morality."
| 320 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:07:26pm |
re: #319 Charles
Not in so many words, but Palin does back a constitutional amendment to outlaw abortion, and another constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage, so there's very little doubt that given the power, she absolutely would try to make everyone follow her idea of "morality."
She also did not want rape kits that had emergency contraception in them. Even by anti-abortion standards that is an extreme view.
| 322 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:09:47pm |
re: #238 Conservative Moonbat
Man Charged With Making Coffee Naked
The person peering into his window at 5:30 in the morning remains uncharged.
Perhaps he hasn't heard of this really amazing invention they came up with a little while back, they are called curtains...
| 323 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:15:06pm |
re: #322 ausador
Perhaps he hasn't heard of this really amazing invention they came up with a little while back, they are called curtains...
It's funny but, I'm more creeped out by the guy who felt the need to call the cops.
/shrugs.
| 324 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:15:15pm |
re: #313 Charles
CJ,
Will look at those and get back to you. I am about to admit there WAS a mild warming trend from 1978 to 1998, which has flattened or been wiped out since then. Not yet, but I need to look into them deeper.
But - and here is the kicker I mentioned in the other posts - no one has proven the following 3 hypotheses, which would be required to claim that warming is dramatic.
(1) There is a way to develop a global temperature index to a tenth of a degree that actually represents a daily or weekly or monthly 'global temperature' today (same for hemispheric, land/ocean and regions).
(2) There is a way to develop a global temperature index to a tenth of a degree that represents a daily or weekly or monthly 'global temperature' 50-100 years ago (same for hemispheric, land/ocean and regions).
(3) There is a way to determine a normal global temperature index to a a tenth of a degree that represents a daily or weekly or monthly 'global temperature' for 100- 10,000 years ago (required to prove current warming is dramatic).
Remember, you have consistent satellite data merged with unverifiable ground sensor data, merged with completely imprecise proxy data. If you prove these three hypotheses, that the current slight warming in the satellite data is actually something dramatic, you still have to prove that CO2 levels are the primary force behind these changes (or is it something else).
But one thing at a time. Let's see what these corrections did to the temperature record for the last 30 years!
| 325 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:19:45pm |
re: #81 _RememberTonyC
good for him. he has been very quiet these past few months. he seems to have distanced himself from the extremists, who were essentially the same people who didn't like him before because of his LDS faith. Maybe his strategy is to allow the "true believers" to exhaust themselves with their extreme ODS ranting, and then he can cruise in with his levelheaded, untainted presence and scoop up the moderates who comprise most of the electorate.
As a Democrat, he's the potential candidate I fear most (but not much).
It's because he's on this astral plane.
| 326 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:20:43pm |
re: #313 Charles
BTW, Thanks for the first link. That is the first time some one has shown me something I had not seen before. Appreciate you taking the time out for that.
Now of for a few mile bicycle ride before the weather goes south
| 327 |
Dynomite Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:22:45pm |
re: #62 Charles
It's no longer just a single 'Outrageous Outrage of the Day' -- there are several of these nontroversies every day lately.
I hereby have added a new word to my daily vocabulary - Thank you, Charles.
Best description ever. Nontroversy. I can only say "Tempest in a teapot" so many times.
| 328 |
suchislife Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:22:53pm |
re: #320 LudwigVanQuixote
Ok, I looked around a bit, and what I could find was that she was involved in legislation or regulation making rape victims pay for their rape kits, and that one possible explanation for this is that she chose to do this because she opposed the contraception in it. Is that what you meant?
| 329 |
doubter4444 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:25:52pm |
re: #323 Varek Raith
It's funny but, I'm more creeped out by the guy who felt the need to call the cops.
/shrugs.
It was a woman who made the call.
I just have to think:
If it were a woman in the house and a man crossed her yard and saw her, would the woman be arrested?
Not in a million years, the guy who crossed into the yard and looked into the window would be charged with peeping in a flash.
I mean it's 5:30 am, in the dark, crossing off a path to go on someone's yard... if someone else saw him doing that, he'd be toast.
| 330 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:27:16pm |
re: #121 transient
How does one create/ evolve a viable new political party?
Adopt an anti-slavery platform.
| 331 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:28:48pm |
re: #328 suchislife
Ok, I looked around a bit, and what I could find was that she was involved in legislation or regulation making rape victims pay for their rape kits, and that one possible explanation for this is that she chose to do this because she opposed the contraception in it. Is that what you meant?
My recollection is that she was opposed to the forensic exams because they include emergency contraception and saw charging the rape victims for them as a way to prevent them from getting it.
[Link: www.cnn.com...]
| 332 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:29:30pm |
re: #329 doubter4444
It was a woman who made the call.
I just have to think:
If it were a woman in the house and a man crossed her yard and saw her, would the woman be arrested?
Not in a million years, the guy who crossed into the yard and looked into the window would be charged with peeping in a flash.
I mean it's 5:30 am, in the dark, crossing off a path to go on someone's yard... if someone else saw him doing that, he'd be toast.
Thanks for the correction. I also agree with your post.
| 333 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:32:40pm |
re: #308 AJStrata
Ralphie,
What the hell is wrong with you? She does connect to religious families who keep Church or Synagogue deep in their family's lives.
Most centrists are religious (I am not). But what is this "knocked up" crap coming from? She is a wonderful young lady who had a boyfriend (who stabbed her in the back BTW) and is trying to make the best of a tough situation.
No one is going to hold that against Sarah or her daughter! Everyone has made mistakes and had to pick themselves up. Most of us simply pray her family makes it through all this (her daughter now a single mother, her son defending this country in war zones, her youngest challenged with Down Syndrome).
She never once said anyone had to follow her or her family's path. You really need to step back and figure out why how they decided to face their challenges should make you cold, and others shake with fear. Was it her decision, or something inside the people who responded so wildly?
I have no trouble the choice Sarah made, and that is what the discussion comes down to here - a choice.
Sarah wants to restrict those choices for everyone else.
Most Americans want to retain the right to make those sort of choices, which is one of the reasons she and her partner lost the election.
And part of it was the subjective impression that most American had of the affair (remember that in our media world, subjective impressions carry a lot of weight), but to most Americans it looked like a Sarah dragged her daughter to a shotgun wedding with a white-trash boob who had no desire to keep the kid.
| 334 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:39:42pm |
re: #324 AJStrata
But - and here is the kicker I mentioned in the other posts - no one has proven the following 3 hypotheses, which would be required to claim that warming is dramatic.
How many papers need to be linked with how many thousands of citations do you need before you accept the science? Of course this has been shown!
(1) There is a way to develop a global temperature index to a tenth of a degree that actually represents a daily or weekly or monthly 'global temperature' today (same for hemispheric, land/ocean and regions).
This has been shown to be the case in the links I have given you. You could read the methodologies of the papers. I have given them to you. Please consider reading them before casting false claims on the thousands of scientists who worked on them.
(2) There is a way to develop a global temperature index to a tenth of a degree that represents a daily or weekly or monthly 'global temperature' 50-100 years ago (same for hemispheric, land/ocean and regions).
Same comment as above. Of course we can do that...
(3) There is a way to determine a normal global temperature index to a a tenth of a degree that represents a daily or weekly or monthly 'global temperature' for 100- 10,000 years ago (required to prove current warming is dramatic).
Also covered in the links already given...
Remember, you have consistent satellite data merged with unverifiable ground sensor data, merged with completely imprecise proxy data.
Those are very strong statements for someone who has yet to refute the methodology in any of the papers you have been linked to. You are just being false.
If you prove these three hypotheses, that the current slight warming in the satellite data is actually something dramatic,
It has been.
you still have to prove that CO2 levels are the primary force behind these changes (or is it something else).
This too has been proven. Now, this is admittedly a softer statement than your wildly false claim that CO2 doesn't cause warming at all. However, you are still just wrong.
But one thing at a time. Let's see what these corrections did to the temperature record for the last 30 years!
Well, for the last thirty years temperatures have been rising.
Let's look at a simple graph...
[Link: www.ncdc.noaa.gov...]
Now finally all those links.. Please do consider looking at them...
There are six links there. Of particular interest is the assessment of the proxie data by the National Academy. The national academy and thousands of peer reviewed scientists who actually work in the field have answered your claims.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 335 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:42:31pm |
re: #272 SanFranciscoZionist
So is Nancy Pelosi, but that has never gotten her any slack from the pundits and the politicos. What the heck does that even mean?
It means that some people very strongly support Palin as a symbol, it does not matter what she actually is, only what she symbolizes to them in their own mind matters to them. I lived in Alaska from 1989 to the end of 2006 and I can assure you that the reality of her does not match their imaginings.
You remember how some people said they voted for Bush II because he was a guy you could imagine having a beer with? Palin has the same kind of surface appeal, as "just an ordinary hockey mom" or "a real down to earth average American." All I can say is that I certainly hope that Bush's legacy dissuades people from wanting to vote for someone "average" again for a long time. Dammit I want a candidate who is smarter than I am, not someone I would feel comfortable with hanging out in a bar.
| 336 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:45:00pm |
re: #335 ausador
It means that some people very strongly support Palin as a symbol, it does not matter what she actually is, only what she symbolizes to them in their own mind matters to them. I lived in Alaska from 1989 to the end of 2006 and I can assure you that the reality of her does not match their imaginings.
You remember how some people said they voted for Bush II because he was a guy you could imagine having a beer with? Palin has the same kind of surface appeal, as "just an ordinary hockey mom" or "a real down to earth average American." All I can say is that I certainly hope that Bush's legacy dissuades people from wanting to vote for someone "average" again for a long time. Dammit I want a candidate who is smarter than I am, not someone I would feel comfortable with hanging out in a bar.
Surely no sane person would argue against free early choice for a victim of a violent rape. Let alone a politician who hopes to have a snowball's chance of winning national office.
Where is the humanity?
| 337 |
sagehen Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:45:18pm |
And this is exactly why Obama is talking about Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.
He's not attacking the media, or any part of it. He's attacking the Republican party, using wingnut radio as his weapon.
I know the old saying is "he's playing chess while his opponents are playing checkers", but I'm starting to think maybe he's playing chess while his opponents are playing hopscotch.
| 338 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:47:12pm |
re: #335 ausador
It means that some people very strongly support Palin as a symbol, it does not matter what she actually is, only what she symbolizes to them in their own mind matters to them. I lived in Alaska from 1989 to the end of 2006 and I can assure you that the reality of her does not match their imaginings.
You remember how some people said they voted for Bush II because he was a guy you could imagine having a beer with? Palin has the same kind of surface appeal, as "just an ordinary hockey mom" or "a real down to earth average American." All I can say is that I certainly hope that Bush's legacy dissuades people from wanting to vote for someone "average" again for a long time. Dammit I want a candidate who is smarter than I am, not someone I would feel comfortable with hanging out in a bar.
Being someone to hang out in a bar is fine, but the criterion for choosing a leader of your country should be whether the candidate can coherntly formulate cogent thoughts on maters of national interest.
Sarah demonstrated a serious lack of ability on that account.
I appreciate America's healthy suspicion towards intellectuallism, it helps keep us honest and down to earth. But let us not turn that into a disregard for intellect in general.
| 339 |
sagehen Thu, Oct 22, 2009 12:52:28pm |
re: #30 Conservative Moonbat
Then where do all the whackjobs, racist freaks, kooks, clowns, and all-around assholes go? They start a new far right party and split the vote ensuring a permanent democratic majority. I may be a democrat but I don't want to live in a one party state.
The latest Pollster party ID poll shows 39.5% Independents, 21.5% Republican, 33.4% Democrats. (The WaPo/ABC poll showed only 20% Republicans)
How many of those so-called independents are really moderate Republicans who are embarrassed to say so out loud? If elected Republicans would just stop pandering to the crazies and start giving some love to the slightly right of center, they'd get back more people than they'd lose by it.
| 340 |
sagehen Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:02:49pm |
re: #308 AJStrata
Most centrists are religious (I am not). But what is this "knocked up" crap coming from? She is a wonderful young lady who had a boyfriend (who stabbed her in the back BTW) and is trying to make the best of a tough situation.
No one is going to hold that against Sarah or her daughter! Everyone has made mistakes and had to pick themselves up.
Thought experiment:
What if it were instead the black liberal democrat who had a pregnant unwed teenage daughter onstage with him at campaign appearances?
How many on your side of the aisle would defend the wonderful young lady trying to make the best of a tough situation? Do you really think nobody would hold that that against the candidate and his daughter?
| 341 |
theheat Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:12:48pm |
And to think, not so long ago, frequent posters here often praised this whale of an ass, and to criticize him was tantamount to treason.
You know, it isn't that Limbaugh's changed; he's always been an inflammatory jerkoff. But as he becomes more hyperbolic, it becomes painfully obvious to even the most obtuse, that his ongoing tirades against both the common and straw man are indefensible.
Which begs the question, why hasn't anyone in the GOP jerked his chain yet? Why do people of note continue to praise and pander to him? Could it be, this is what the GOP has finally become?
Absolutely.
| 342 |
zuckerlilly Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:13:34pm |
re: #313 Charles
Charles,
your first link directs to an article from 2005 and states:
Using the analysis from Mears and Wentz, Santer showed that the new data was consistent with climate models and theories.
But Wentz et. al later (2007) published their own study to show the dicrepancy between climate modells and reality:
Wentz, F.J., L. Ricciardulli, K. Hilburn, and C. Mears (2007). How Much More Rain Will Global Warming Bring?, Science. 317:233-235.
In an intriguing Climate Change report in Science, Wentz et al. (2007) note that the Coupled Model Intercomparison Project, as well as various climate modeling analyses, predict an increase in precipitation on the order of 1 to 3% per °C of surface global warming. Hence, they decided to see what has happened in the real world in this regard over the last 19 years (1987-2006) of supposedly unprecedented global warming, when data from the Global Historical Climatology Network and satellite measurements of the lower troposphere have indicated a global temperature rise on the order of 0.20°C per decade.
Using satellite observations obtained from the Special Sensor Microwave Imager (SSM/I), the four Remote Sensing Systems scientists derived precipitation trends for the world's oceans over this period; and using data obtained from the Global Precipitation Climatology Project that were acquired from both satellite and rain gauge measurements, they derived precipitation trends for the earth's continents. Appropriately combining the results of these two endeavors, they then derived a real-world increase in precipitation on the order of 7% per °C of surface global warming, which is somewhere between 2.3 and 7 times larger than what is predicted by state-of-the-art climate models.
How was this horrendous discrepancy to be resolved?
Based on theoretical considerations, Wentz et al. concluded that the only way to bring the two results into harmony with each other was for there to have been a 19-year decline in global wind speeds. But when looking at the past 19 years of SSM/I wind retrievals, they found just the opposite, i.e., an increase in global wind speeds. In quantitative terms, in fact, the two results were about as opposite as they could possibly be, as they report that "when averaged over the tropics from 30°S to 30°N, the winds increased by 0.04 m s-1 (0.6%) decade-1, and over all oceans the increase was 0.08 m s-1 (1.0%) decade-1," while global coupled ocean-atmosphere models or GCMs, in their words, "predict that the 1987-to-2006 warming should have been accompanied by a decrease in winds on the order of 0.8% decade-1."
In discussing these embarrassing results, Wentz et al. correctly state that "the reason for the discrepancy between the observational data and the GCMs is not clear." They also rightly state that this dramatic difference between the real world of nature and the virtual world of climate modeling "has enormous impact," concluding that the questions raised by the discrepancy "are far from being settled."
| 343 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:14:38pm |
re: #340 sagehen
Thought experiment:
What if it were instead the black liberal democrat who had a pregnant unwed teenage daughter onstage with him at campaign appearances?
How many on your side of the aisle would defend the wonderful young lady trying to make the best of a tough situation? Do you really think nobody would hold that that against the candidate and his daughter?
Modern politics are as much about perceptions as they are about realities, and the popular perception ws that Sarah was forcing her daughter to keep the kid and that, by extension, she was going to force anyone else's daughter who got pregnant to do so as well.
And that is one of the things that cost her a lot of support among Middle America.
And to bring us back to the original topic origianlly brought up in #30, is the Republican Party going to risk losing appeal to the the nearly 40% of people who make up the middle out of its desire to keep a lock-hold on the the extreme fringe?
| 344 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:17:53pm |
re: #343 ralphieboy
And to bring us back to the original topic origianlly brought up in #30, is the Republican Party going to risk losing appeal to the the nearly 40% of people who make up the middle out of its desire to keep a lock-hold on the the extreme fringe?
So far the answer to that is, "You Betcha" (wink)
| 345 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:23:48pm |
re: #304 AJStrata
yeah, that was bit too short hand. Nancy is not Main Street. She is very wealthy and comes from a very far left viewpoint.
Palin connects to the center left and right moms and daughters. It really is something to see up front. Pumas to Evangelicals.
I completely disagree, as I disagree with the attempt to portray Sarah Palin as the anointed representative of "Main Street". I live on Main Street, I'm 'center left', and I think she's a condescending embarassment. She almost certainly cost McCain my vote.
| 346 |
funky chicken Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:32:57pm |
Pence isn't afraid of Beck and Limbaugh. He agrees with them, which is probably worse.
| 347 |
sagehen Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:33:43pm |
re: #343 ralphieboy
And to bring us back to the original topic origianlly brought up in #30, is the Republican Party going to risk losing appeal to the the nearly 40% of people who make up the middle out of its desire to keep a lock-hold on the the extreme fringe?
Yes.
I wish all the questions were this easy.
| 348 |
funky chicken Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:35:29pm |
re: #340 sagehen
Thought experiment:
What if it were instead the black liberal democrat who had a pregnant unwed teenage daughter onstage with him at campaign appearances?
How many on your side of the aisle would defend the wonderful young lady trying to make the best of a tough situation? Do you really think nobody would hold that that against the candidate and his daughter?
Bigots and idiots would attack the young woman just like bigots and idiots of other stripes attacked Miss Palin. I don't think AJ is a bigot or an idiot, so I wouldn't expect him to behave badly.
| 349 |
theheat Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:36:17pm |
re: #343 ralphieboy
...is the Republican Party going to risk losing appeal to the the nearly 40% of people who make up the middle out of its desire to keep a lock-hold on the the extreme fringe?
You betchya. wink wink (Channeling Sarah Palin.)
| 350 |
drcordell Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:37:12pm |
re: #348 funky chicken
Bigots and idiots would attack the young woman just like bigots and idiots of other stripes attacked Miss Palin. I don't think AJ is a bigot or an idiot, so I wouldn't expect him to behave badly.
I think you've got it twisted. Sarah Palin is the bigoted idiot, not her "attackers."
| 351 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:39:49pm |
re: #348 funky chicken
Bigots and idiots would attack the young woman just like bigots and idiots of other stripes attacked Miss Palin. I don't think AJ is a bigot or an idiot, so I wouldn't expect him to behave badly.
Of the most embarassing moments for the left was when word of Jessie Jackson's illegitimate love child (and the hush money he was paying the mother) finally came out, one of the things said in his defence was that "at least he didn't have get an abortion!"
And I am sorry, but Bristol's boyfriend was a major white-trash loser.
| 352 |
doubter4444 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:44:32pm |
re: #332 Varek Raith
Thanks for the correction. I also agree with your post.
Thanks, it was only because it was a woman that the incident happened anyway.
I don't think a man would have called the cops on seeing a naked guy making coffee at 5:30.
And honestly, what's wrong with cops these days... apparently they rousted him from his bedroom, so they entered unasked, and took him downtown.
Why not talk to him and tell him there was a complaint, and tell him to not let it happen again.
Zero tolerance is way out of hand, whatever happen to common sense?
| 353 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:44:51pm |
re: #340 sagehen
Thought experiment:
What if it were instead the black liberal democrat who had a pregnant unwed teenage daughter onstage with him at campaign appearances?
How many on your side of the aisle would defend the wonderful young lady trying to make the best of a tough situation? Do you really think nobody would hold that that against the candidate and his daughter?
Hell, what if it were a white girl from small-town America whose parents didn't happen to be conservative icons?
//yes, I'm still mad at Bill O'Reilly for being a jerk about Jamie Lynn Spears.
| 354 |
doubter4444 Thu, Oct 22, 2009 1:45:34pm |
re: #346 funky chicken
Pence isn't afraid of Beck and Limbaugh. He agrees with them, which is probably worse.
True that.
| 355 |
funky chicken Thu, Oct 22, 2009 2:07:04pm |
re: #351 ralphieboy
And I am sorry, but Bristol's boyfriend was a major white-trash loser.
Hey, don't apologize for stating the truth. The whole situation is just a perfect illustration of the danger of teenaged relationships, IMHO. I'm sure all the girls in school thought the guy was "hot" and he was probably popular because he was a varsity hockey player.
Choosing to tie oneself for life to a person based upon their status in high school is a really bad move.
| 356 |
XopXproxyX Thu, Oct 22, 2009 2:17:05pm |
re: #351 ralphieboy
And so was Bristol Palin. She was just as much to blame.
| 358 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 22, 2009 2:20:55pm |
re: #342 zuckerlilly
I'm not surprised that you didn't provide a link for that quote -- because it comes from co2science.org, an energy industry front group that specializes in climate change denial propaganda. Nothing on their website has any credibility at all.
| 359 |
akarra Thu, Oct 22, 2009 2:49:04pm |
Don't know if anyone's said this yet - I haven't read through all the comments - but Mike Pence used to be a radio talk show host:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
How much other GOP leaders agree with him is an open question; we know a few are ready and willing to quote Glenn Beck. This GOP member certainly does not agree with Rep. Pence.
| 360 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Thu, Oct 22, 2009 2:49:06pm |
re: #304 AJStrata
Palin connects to the center left and right moms and daughters. It really is something to see up front. Pumas to Evangelicals.
See, this is what I have a hard time with, the anecdotal appeal to support through popularity, "she connects to the people who went out of their way to attend an event that she spoke at", how surprising and amazing. I suppose that Arlo Guthrie should run for office based on how well he connects to the people that come to his concerts too?
I have never attended a political campaign rally hosted by anyone where the audience did not enthusiastically support the candidate. They came there for just that purpose after all, what else were you expecting, people getting up and voicing their reservations about Palin's being on the ticket?
You ignore Palin's very real, documented, and verifiable flaws as a candidate for the highest office in this country. Instead you appeal for her on the grounds that "some people really like her!" Some people really like Barney the purple dinosaur, but that doesn't mean I want him as my representative in government. (although at least Barney has a writing team to steer his responses)
Sarah Palin will never get my vote, my own anecdotal evidence is that quite a few other people feel the same way, they have told me so. I'm tired of the culture wars, I'm tired of the fixation on abortion and gay marriage over focusing on the economic viability of the country. I'm tired of the battles to return forced prayer to the public schools, and to have creationism/intelligent design taught as science. I'm tired of the battle over reproductive rights and contraception, stem cell research and anti-science populism in general.
Sarah Palin is overwhelmingly supported by the people who are not tired of fighting for these issues, at least according to their own written admissions, indeed she is seen as their candidate of choice. Can I support a candidate that promises to re-ignite and re-invigorate the culture wars? No, I cannot do that, Sarah Palin and I are on totally opposite sides of most of these issues, but that is not my real complaint.
I am opposed to the dumbing down of America, I am opposed to the dilution and mockery of science. I am opposed to the imposition of religion by force, I am opposed to the government controlling the behavior of consenting adults within their own bedrooms and of their own bodies. In short I am opposed to every single thing that her supporters want to believe Palin stands for whether she actually does or not.
Palin is a populist, she quit as governor to chase the dollars she could earn writing and speaking before her popularity could fade. If she was to be elected by those that want to fight the culture wars all over again don't you think she would try to deliver? Enough is enough...
| 361 |
zuckerlilly Thu, Oct 22, 2009 3:07:10pm |
| 362 |
zuckerlilly Thu, Oct 22, 2009 3:17:02pm |
Charles,
here is the link to the pdf-file of the Wentz-Ricciardulli-paper:
weather.msfc.nasa.gov/AMSR/meetings2007/wentz_pversuse.pdf
| 363 |
observer Thu, Oct 22, 2009 3:26:31pm |
When the GOP shifted from conservatism to neo-conservatism it began to abandon the fragments of its old political philosophy left. And, its integrity as well. The dems aren't much better, but lack some of the mean-spiritedness (religious and other) GOP leaders strut in front of the mikes in DC.
| 364 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 22, 2009 3:37:51pm |
re: #355 funky chicken
Hey, don't apologize for stating the truth. The whole situation is just a perfect illustration of the danger of teenaged relationships, IMHO. I'm sure all the girls in school thought the guy was "hot" and he was probably popular because he was a varsity hockey player.
Choosing to tie oneself for life to a person based upon their status in high school is a really bad move.
Indeed, and I would not recommend that my daughter do so whether she was pregnant or not. Which is why I found the rush to marry the kids off deeply disturbing. I am thankful that they dropped the idea.
| 365 |
Mich-again Thu, Oct 22, 2009 3:40:32pm |
I just read that linked article and I am kind of shocked by what I read from Mike Pence. The GOP is going off the rails while we watch.
| 366 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 22, 2009 3:50:38pm |
re: #365 Mich-again
I just read that linked article and I am kind of shocked by what I read from Mike Pence. The GOP is going off the rails while we watch.
In the article Pence is reacting to, any Republican who acknowledged there was a problem did so anonymously and off the record.
All three figures [Linsey Graham, David Brooks, and John McCain] are often irritants to establishment Republicans — but in this case, many Republicans said privately they were in agreement that they need to move beyond the hard-core right to succeed.
| 367 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Thu, Oct 22, 2009 4:12:46pm |
re: #366 wrenchwench
Well, at least Mitt Romney has had the good sense to hide and not find himself attached to these people by association. But it is extremely sad that the prominent people in the party are not actually leaders and have to muzzle themselves on their reaction to the excesses of the fringe right.
When do we finally get a leader in this party?
| 368 |
akarra Thu, Oct 22, 2009 4:13:38pm |
re: #366 wrenchwench
That article is quite excellent: I think one can make a public stand with the Republican irritants - Graham took a lot of heat for standing up to the Paulbots.
| 369 |
The Yankee Thu, Oct 22, 2009 4:46:24pm |
you guys might find this interesting. It seems to be close to the truth...
5thirtyeight comparing Beck and Rush
| 371 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Thu, Oct 22, 2009 6:35:01pm |
re: #370 jag1ed
Right, because a party that mandates to people how to live by biblical law and backs that up with real laws and penalties will surely get a lot more votes...idiot. The almost 40% of the country that is neither Republican nor Democrat is not going to vote for being forced to follow anyones creed. BTW have you figured out yet whose religion we are going to follow after the "revolution" and the 20-50 years of complete anarchy and mass-murder afterward?
| 372 |
AJStrata Thu, Oct 22, 2009 8:16:46pm |
re: #313 Charles
Sorry for the delay, and I am still not finished with an answer. It will be along the lines of:
1. The so called corrections are small and do not effect the trend very much
2. The 30 trend is still within a very small range which does not indicate significant warming.
3. The 10 year trend is within an even smaller range, indicating no recent warming.
Regardless of the size of the trend (i.e., just taking the NCDC data as is) there is still no way to demonstrate significant warming since the measurements from today are much more precise than 50, 100 or 1000 years ago.
I will be using these counter arguments to the papers you provided (again, thanks - I had not seen them, but now I know why they may not be all that earth shattering).
I can easily agree to a smidge of warming since 1978. The Earth has been warming for 10,000 years pretty much, and definitely in the last 400 since the Little Ice Age ended. Warming is not a sign of catastrophe, nor proof CO2 is the driving force.
The science is far from settled, as the next 2 decades of possible cooling will continue to prove (that is a prediction from IPCC scientists, not me).
More later (with graphs and data). Right now - some sleep!
| 373 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 9:58:31pm |
re: #372 AJStrata
How about you answer the papers and the charts and the data that I sent to you from PNAS and such?
You do realize that your three challenges were answered right?
Do you think Charles has not seen those papers too?
| 374 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 22, 2009 10:03:23pm |
re: #372 AJStrata
Just so they don't get lost BTW, these links refute your, undated, unpublished un peer-reviewed and unsubstantiated pseudo paper as well.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
You claimed that you had three challenges to AGW. These papers refute your false and unscientific claims. Why not address those too?
| 375 |
AJStrata Fri, Oct 23, 2009 6:38:54am |
re: #312 aagcobb
I agree 100% - which is why I have not been willing to cross the line to the GOP. In fact, it is that core which has pushed all centrists out and why the GOP label is now so small.
The only question now is which fringe implodes first!
| 376 |
AJStrata Fri, Oct 23, 2009 6:45:23am |
re: #319 Charles
Yes she did. She has a right to promote her beliefs. That is not a sin (unless you become a purists).
I have little concern over the abortion thing - it will never pass. We need to educate not legislate. We need to leave the choice to the woman or family. Most women I know who have had an abortion and have had children always regret their choice and note the fear of having a child as something that needs to be addressed. In my opinion, the best voices on this matter are women who have experienced both. You will find most of them think abortion is too high.
Gay Marriage I am torn about. I have been a strong supporter of equal rights and privileges for partners. And yet I think the family still needs to be honored.
Thus I take no stand. Let it work itself out and live with the conclusion.
| 377 |
AJStrata Fri, Oct 23, 2009 7:00:06am |
re: #335 ausador
Yeah, but if you can support someone who has differing views, and trust in them to work for the common consensus, then you have moved from the fringe to the center.
No one is going to agree with you 100%. You respect the diversity, make the political case, live with the democratic results.
All you do when you highlight one factor and exaggerate it beyond anything the record shows is fall into the same trap as the Malkins and Moore's.
When you take umbrage with their purists approach, it does not do any good to adopt the same approach to a different set of issues.
| 378 |
AJStrata Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:06:54am |
re: #339 sagehen
Many are moderate 'conservatives' who are saying loudly they reject the path the far right has been taking.
| 379 |
AJStrata Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:08:06am |
re: #340 sagehen
Being an independent I don't confuse personal life choices with promoting policies. I also don't get all wigged out when someone as a differing point of view.
Why should I? I am not a purist.
| 380 |
AJStrata Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:14:27am |
re: #342 zuckerlilly
zuckerlilly,
Excellent citation there (still to swamped to get back into this with data). I also cited counter arguments to the alarmists' claims.
The point being quite clear - the science is not settled and that makes the claims nothing more than working hypotheses (with lots of holes in them).
My point still stands (and I will get back to it as soon as possible): There is no support for the accuracies claimed going back 50, 100, 1000 and 2000 years. What I will be showing later is how the modern error bars do not grow (as they should) as we travel back in time and we loose a lot of precision. Once the actual error bars are applied there is no way to claim current temperature trends are unique or dramatic.
If they are not unique or dramatic it CANNOT be due to the undeniable rise in CO2 levels.
What strikes me funny is foolish people like Luwdig Von Beck who call people 'liars" when they bring forth cogent counter arguments. Ludwig is a pretend scientist because of his inability to maturely participate in the scientific method of debate, counter debate, etc.
"liar" is just his version of "I don't want to know"!
| 381 |
AJStrata Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:20:21am |
re: #344 ausador
Unless Palin goes rogue and challenges the party elitists (which she just did in NY-23). Being conservative is not the problem. It's being a rude, brow beating conservative who vilifies diversity in (a) how to address a problem (e.g., The deport Amnesty Hypochondriacs belittling the Bush-McCain centrist solution).
Palin can win a lot of people by (a) dispelling the liberal myth she is out to force the nation to conform to her views and (b) taking the GOP head on.
Trust me, it will work. Especially with the left going all out to force the nation to conform to their world views. Holding views and arguing them is not the same as proposing policies that enforce them.
I believe the center left to center-right public is more than sophisticated enough to understand this distinction. We all have strong views, we all want the freedom to make our own choices.
| 382 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:04:06am |
re: #380 AJStrata
Strata,
The only one calling names for the last 40 or so posts is you.
That does not detract from your curious running from the data.
You claimed that there are three big challenges to AGW in your mind. You falsely claimed that the scientific community (of which you are not a part, you are not in the field) did not address them.
To whit...
We do have reliable sensor data that is accurate to a fraction of a degree
This is for ground based measurements (it is one of many, all papers discuss the accuracy of the data they use, but this is in PDF form so anyone could read it. There are hundreds more like it.) It shows that the older thermometer data is accurate to within .03 C
[Link: www.ncof.gov.uk...]
That debunks you right there on that point. Done. Game over.
Care to address the various papers or their methodologies rather than slandering actual hard working scientists?
The proxy data record is sufficiently accurate to base findings on.
Care to dispute the review done by the National Academy?
[Link: www.nap.edu...]
The National Academy debunks you. Done. Game over.
The satellites do clearly show warming.
You have been presented with the data. Further, you know full well that the satellites are showing warming, or you would if you actually looked at the science.
You openly and actively lied about that.
[Link: www.ncdc.noaa.gov...]
[Link: science.samxxzy.ns02.info...]
[Link: www2.bren.ucsb.edu...]
When the data is taken together:
[Link: data.giss.nasa.gov...]
Really how about you deny that before you go on to slandering scientists?
For those who want a very basic how do we know AGW is real, please look at this from NASA:
[Link: climate.nasa.gov...]
| 383 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:11:45am |
re: #380 AJStrata
The point being quite clear - the science is not settled and that makes the claims nothing more than working hypotheses (with lots of holes in them).
No that is not that case. See all the links in 382. That is from actual scientists - which you are not. You are a computer programmer.
My point still stands (and I will get back to it as soon as possible): There is no support for the accuracies claimed going back 50, 100, 1000 and 2000 years.
No it does not. The links above from actual scientists, which you are not, clearly refute you.
What I will be showing later is how the modern error bars do not grow (as they should) as we travel back in time and we loose a lot of precision. Once the actual error bars are applied there is no way to claim current temperature trends are unique or dramatic.
In other words, you are going to attempt to do a statistical sleight of hand.
If they are not unique or dramatic it CANNOT be due to the undeniable rise in CO2 levels.
This in of itself is a logical fallacy. Data from past events was driven by other things. We are actually driving the present warming.
What strikes me funny is foolish people like Luwdig Von Beck who call people 'liars" when they bring forth cogent counter arguments. Ludwig is a pretend scientist because of his inability to maturely participate in the scientific method of debate, counter debate, etc.
Ummm, you are the only one calling names.
You are a liar because you lie about the data. You have lied openly and been caught at it. I really don't care if you think I am a pretend scientist either. How about you look at all the evidence that I have brought you from thousands of other scientists.
I would also note that I do not believe in death panels. You do, and yet you call me Beck? Curious...
"liar" is just his version of "I don't want to know"!
No, that would be your making false and unsubstantiated claims and then running from the real data.
I've posted dozens of links for you.
So how about you stop calling me names and look at the evidence that completely refutes you?
Khal Wimpo (free internal organs upon request!)
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