Frum: Republican Fratricide

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David Frum looks at the GOP’s impending defeats in New York and New Jersey, and the angry conservatives who are going to cut off their noses to spite their faces: Prelude to Republican fratricide.

What lessons will Republicans draw? You might think that the impending defeats in New York and New Jersey would drive home the need to broaden the Republican coalition. A candidate like Hoffman would have been the better candidate for New York’s 23rd CD; a candidate like Daggett the better candidate for suburban New Jersey. Republicans have to find ways to accommodate both types of candidates and both kinds of constituencies.

But the risk is that the party will draw a very different conclusion. From the New York experience, Republicans will be tempted to draw the lesson: Always nominate the more conservative candidate. From New Jersey: We need to drive pro-environmental fiscal moderates out of our party and into the Democratic Party where they belong!

And if the Republicans pick up an Arkansas Senate seat and a dozen blue-dog Democratic House seats in 2010, you can see this “tea party” mentality taking strong hold of the GOP in the run-up to 2012.

But a political formula that encourages Republicans to write off the suburbs, the Northeast, and California is not a formula for a national majority. It’s a formula for a more coherent, better mobilized, but perpetually minority party.

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200 comments
1 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:10:30am

This will not end well.

2 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:11:10am

Another good snippet:

From the point of view of most Republican commenters online and on the air, party loyalty is a highly variable principle. As they see it, third-party races by liberal Republicans who want to combine environmental protection with fiscal responsibility are selfish indulgences. But third-party races by conservative Republicans who want to combine pro-life appeals with their economic message? Those are completely different. Those are heroic acts of principle.

3 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:12:12am

I said this a day ago or so. If it really is going to split, this is exactly what the early days of the split would look like. The Socons have taken over. Thye question is will the rest form another or will the Socons be forced to start their own?

4 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:12:54am

re: #3 Rightwingconspirator

I said this a day ago or so. If it really is going to split, this is exactly what the early days of the split would look like. The Socons have taken over. Thye question is will the rest form another or will the Socons be forced to start their own?

The Party of Christ?

5 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:13:23am

Just searched Twitter on 'Little Green Footballs' and ooh boy, the haters are hating away today.

6 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:13:47am
But a political formula that encourages Republicans to write off the suburbs, the Northeast, and California is not a formula for a national majority. It’s a formula for a more coherent, better mobilized, but perpetually minority party.

I suspect this is what's going to happen. The Paulian element of the Tea Parties is pretty savvy about nuts and bolts politics and they are driving the bus. The conservative base is along for the ride. Pretty much all the right wing blogs see this as a huge victory to sink the Republicans even if it means a Dem victory.

7 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:15:04am

re: #4 JasonA

We should be that lucky that they would be that candid.

8 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:15:09am

re: #3 Rightwingconspirator

I said this a day ago or so. If it really is going to split, this is exactly what the early days of the split would look like. The Socons have taken over. Thye question is will the rest form another or will the Socons be forced to start their own?

I have a bad feeling it will be the Socons left in the party, and we will have to find somewhere else to go. However, that does not mean we need to vote for a Democrat. Ojoe may have a point about a third party, and thrid parties can be viable if one of the two major parties is not (think 1856-1860 Whigs, Democrats, & Republicans).

9 arethusa  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:15:27am

I think another lesson that needs to be learned is that whoever you are and from whatever party you've just got to be better at your opponent on the issues - clearer, more coherent, have a message. In Virginia, McDonnell has done this very well, and it's one reason Deeds is struggling.

I still think Christie might pull out New Jersey - often third-party candidates don't get the votes on election day - but it will be very close.

10 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:15:58am

re: #6 Killgore Trout

I suspect this is what's going to happen. The Paulian element of the Tea Parties is pretty savvy about nuts and bolts politics and they are driving the bus. The conservative base is along for the ride. Pretty much all the right wing blogs see this as a huge victory to sink the Republicans even if it means a Dem victory.

Cutting off one's nose to spite the face.

11 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:16:25am

re: #5 Charles

With all due respect to Twitter and its use in Iran, it's full of stupid spats celebrity gossip and meaningless chatter. It appears to enable the inane beyond most other new media tech.

12 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:16:50am

Was afraid of this...

13 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:16:57am

re: #8 Honorary Yooper

I've always been a swing voter so it doesn't bother me much. A lot of long time Republicans might have a harder time pulling the D lever.

14 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:17:16am

OT (repost from last thread)

So I've been reading this UN Framework Convention on Climate Change document that is coming up in Copenhagen. I am on page 7 (now 9) out of 181 and I already have that moonbat sense going like crazy.

There is no chance of us signing on to this right?

15 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:17:16am

re: #8 Honorary Yooper

Can another party even get in a debate or on a ballot? Thats the issue right there.

16 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:17:23am

re: #5 Charles

Just searched Twitter on 'Little Green Footballs' and ooh boy, the haters are hating away today.

The Stalker blog had a 300+ comment post up last night hating on LGF and you. Might explain some of the venom this morning.

17 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:18:01am

re: #15 Rightwingconspirator

Can another party even get in a debate or on a ballot? Thats the issue right there.

Perot pulled it off.

18 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:18:46am

re: #5 Charles

Just searched Twitter on 'Little Green Footballs' and ooh boy, the haters are hating away today.

good grief!
People are even tweeting about being blocked.

19 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:18:52am

re: #14 Oh no...Sand People!

I haven't been following it so I'm not sure. Even if Obama does sign it congress will have to ratify it. Not sure what the chances are.

20 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:18:56am

re: #17 JasonA

...and gave us Clinton.

21 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:19:02am

re: #17 JasonA

As did Anderson. But that's two out of how many for how long? Then observe the results of each. Ouch!

22 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:19:41am

re: #11 Rightwingconspirator

With all due respect to Twitter and its use in Iran, it's full of stupid spats celebrity gossip and meaningless chatter. It appears to enable the inane beyond most other new media tech.

I agree.
The only use I found for it was keeping track of events during the Iran Election. It was invaluable.

23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:19:51am

re: #16 Honorary Yooper

The Stalker blog had a 300+ comment post up last night hating on LGF and you. Might explain some of the venom this morning.

Does not caring what the fuck those people think make me less of a Lizard? I hope not. Because I don't give a fuck what those people think.

24 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:19:57am

re: #21 Rightwingconspirator

As did Anderson. But that's two out of how many for how long? Then observe the results of each. Ouch!

Was Wallace in any debates?

25 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:20:26am

re: #22 reine.de.tout

I agree.
The only use I found for it was keeping track of events during the Iran Election. It was invaluable.

"Shit my dad says" is fun on twitter.

26 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:21:04am

re: #8 Honorary Yooper

I have a bad feeling it will be the Socons left in the party, and we will have to find somewhere else to go. However, that does not mean we need to vote for a Democrat. Ojoe may have a point about a third party, and thrid parties can be viable if one of the two major parties is not (think 1856-1860 Whigs, Democrats, & Republicans).

Contact the Whigs.

27 arethusa  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:21:56am

re: #25 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"Shit my dad says" is fun on twitter.

Also the cat Twitterer, Sockington. (Well, if you like cats.)

28 StillAMarine  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:22:45am

Yesterday the Republican National Committee telephoned me (at work) asking for donations.I reminded the caller that I had donated in the past, but that I would not donate one more cent while the Republicans seemed to be dredging up creationists and birthers as party spokespeople.
Since I donated to them my home mailbox has been stuffed with more pleas for yet more of my hard-earned money. I send all of them back in their postage paid envelopes with no more than a note regarding my thoughts on creationists and birthers.
If the Republicans continue their advances to the far right loons they will lose big time in the elections. Many more years of leftist administration will be the result.

29 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:23:11am

re: #23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does not caring what the fuck those people think make me less of a Lizard? I hope not. Because I don't give a fuck what those people think.

Oh, I never said I cared what they think. I merely said that it might explain some of the venom thrown about this morning. It's really pretty sad, IMHO. They just cannot let go.

30 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:24:39am

re: #29 Honorary Yooper

Sad as heck.

31 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:25:07am

And from the mouth of Malkin

radical leftist Dede Scozzafava

I've never seen "with us or against us" in such full-force.

32 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:25:16am

re: #19 Killgore Trout

I haven't been following it so I'm not sure. Even if Obama does sign it congress will have to ratify it. Not sure what the chances are.

page 5) PP.3 Acknowledging the important role of the Kyoto Protocol in contributing to the ultimate objective of the Convention, and the need to broaden the legal commitments under the Convention. Substantial reductions of GHG emissions from Annex I countries should be agreed,

(page 6) PP.4 Recognizing the importance of early action and emphasizing the urgent need to accelerate both mitigation and adaptation actions,
PP.5 Renewing the political determination to ensure that the equitable development needs of present and future generations are properly addressed.

The language for me is just too vague. I don't like it.

33 Cato the Elder  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:25:17am

re: #29 Honorary Yooper

Oh, I never said I cared what they think. I merely said that it might explain some of the venom thrown about this morning. It's really pretty sad, IMHO. They just cannot let go.

And the more we notice them here, the better they like it.

34 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:25:26am

re: #26 reine.de.tout

I'm not sure that's the best play. What about a fisc con/moderate play to seize the party? If I saw some personalities at work in that regard I might re register. Run away or work to fix from within. The Dilemma.

35 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:27:23am

Hold the phone. I've been following NYC metro area politics for more than 20 years, having lived and grown up here. Democrats outnumber GOPers in NJ and NY and have done so for decades. They have built in advantages in the numbers. It would take a sea change to overcome that.

And yet, NJ is a dead heat between an incompetent Democrat who's outspent his opponent by a 3-1 margin using his personal wealth to do so. That has more to do with the dead heat than anything the GOP is doing nationally.

GOP candidate Christie Christie can't keep up with the attack ads against him. That's killed his lead in the polls, even though many NJers want to see Corzine gone because he's gone back on his promises for property tax relief, all while increasing other taxes and fees and increasing the size and scope of the state workforce.

Corzine is also irresponsibly calling for municipalities to curtail pension payment obligations, saddling those municipalities with a bigger tax bill down the road - all to get this year's budget done. He's contributed to making the structural deficits worse in the state.

But Corzine can gloss over everything and paint Christie as a Bush-wannabe. That's the subtext of all the ads he's running. They're not painting him as a knuckle dragging far right wing nutter or a Palin-follower or a creationist.

They're blaming Bush in NJ. And it's worked to narrow the gap, which speaks volumes about the way people in these parts despise Bush and are willing to tar anything that even remotely is associated with him - whether it's warranted or not.

And Daggett is seen as a stalking horse to draw votes from Christie - that he's running to hit Christie, and isn't a viable alternative to Christie in the GOP. Christie's credentials are considerable - and the corruption busting hits home here in NJ because of all the corrupt politicos he's put away - he has a 100% conviction rate on those cases, and has gotten a bunch from the most recent major bust to already enter guilty pleas.

As for the upstate NY-23 race, it's a mess because the state and local GOP is in utter disarray, and Hoffman got support from outside the establishment (which isn't saying much given how incompetent the NYS GOP has been for years on end). Gov. Pataki, the last GOP governor, was as fiscally irresponsible as they come, and when he was gone, the state GOP was left in a mess from which it may not recover for years.

If NJ goes to the GOP, it's got nothing to do with the national sentiment, but the locals being fed up with the totality of Democrat feckless policy in Trenton. It would be a slight rebuke to Obama and all the other high profile Democrats who have come into NJ to stump for Corzine (Obama 2x, Biden and Bill Clinton 1x each), but the anger is directly mostly at Corzine who has failed miserably and has tried to cover for them through throwing money (taxpayers' money at that) at the problems with no effect except to soak taxpayers in the state.

If the NY-23 goes to Hoffman, it speaks to the GOP candidate's miserable handling of her campaign, and the attention on the race that it has brought.

The NYS State GOP has to clean up its act if it wants to improve matters into 2010. The NY-23 race should be the clarion call, but I doubt it will be answered.

36 RogueOne  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:27:38am

re: #8 Honorary Yooper

According to this article:
[Link: www.politico.com...]
They weren't real happy about her views on gay marriage or abortion but it was when the discussion got around to her record on taxes tht they flipped out.

After Sessions conceded that Scozzafava’s record on gay marriage and abortion fell short of where those at the lunch wanted it to be, he sought to defend her record on taxes. At that point, according to two sources who were present, the Texas congressman came under forceful pushback from several conservative leaders who insisted Scozzafava fell far short in that area as well.

plus, with all that has happened to her campaign over the last week, she's looking like a very weak candidate. C'mon, calling the cops on a reporter because he was asking a question she didn't like? That's pretty pathetic. If you are a republican who isn't for limited government and lower taxes then why exactly would you consider yourself a republican?

37 Four More Tears  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:27:39am

Wow. We don't have the balls to take on global warming like this.

Youtube Video
38 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:27:58am

Frum is really underplaying this - it's not just NY and CA. It's also CO, NM, FL, and PA. We used to be able to win in those areas. Now it's doubtful. If the Socons got their way in FL, we would also lose that race, but I don't think Rubio has a good chance of shooting down Crist at all. That doesn't mean that the SOCONs and DI types aren't going to try anyway thus weakening the Crist mandate from his own state.

39 baier  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:28:13am

re: #28 StillAMarine

I would Identify myself with the GOP as far as foreign policy and fiscal(?) policy, normally, but I'm too repulsed by the birther-creationist-oather keeper- ron paul - wing anymore.
I feel like I have no representation in the government, nor am I likely to have it any time soon.

40 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:30:00am

re: #39 baier

I would Identify myself with the GOP as far as foreign policy and fiscal(?) policy, normally, but I'm too repulsed by the birther-creationist-oather keeper- ron paul - wing anymore.
I feel like I have no representation in the government, nor am I likely to have it any time soon.

Ojoe keeps telling us to check out the Modern Whig Party.

41 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:30:27am

re: #33 Cato the Elder

And the more we notice them here, the better they like it.

notice who(m)?
/

42 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:31:36am

re: #40 reine.de.tout

Ojoe keeps telling us to check out the Modern Whig Party.

Has he given you the 9-5 shift?

43 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:32:39am

re: #35 lawhawk

I disagree - there a full frontal attack on Scozzafava from Socons and the Nativist lobby, if you can't see the handwriting of the usual suspects here you aren't looking very hard.

Malkin+Minutemen+Club for Decay+Dobson=A lot of opposition from out of state.
Anyone the minutemen endorse is almost always going to be a candidate I vote against.

44 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:32:49am

re: #33 Cato the Elder

And the more we notice them here, the better they like it.

Some of them. Most them prefer to bitch and whine about us and Charles whether we take note or not. Some of the worst stuff is posted where we don't take note.

45 baier  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:32:59am

re: #40 reine.de.tout

Ojoe keeps telling us to check out the Modern Whig Party.

Maybe after some serious lizard vetting would I consider supporting a 3rd party.

46 Linden Arden  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:33:15am

I recently watched Christopher Hitchens on 'Afterwords' say that he voted for Obama. He said the last straw for him was Sarah Palin.

Frum - even some fellow foreign policy hawks are leaving you.

47 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:33:18am

re: #42 Decatur Deb

Has he given you the 9-5 shift?

heh.
seems so.

48 Cato the Elder  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:33:54am

re: #41 sattv4u2

notice who(m)?
/

re: #46 Linden Arden

I recently watched Christopher Hitchens on 'Afterwords' say that he voted for Obama. He said the last straw for him was Sarah Palin.

Frum - even some fellow foreign policy hawks are leaving you.

Palin was the first of the last straws for me.

49 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:34:33am

re: #40 reine.de.tout

Ojoe keeps telling us to check out the Modern Whig Party.

It seems most interesting. One has to wonder if they can gain enough traction. If enough Rs get POed about the way the GOP is heading, that may be where to go.

50 baier  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:35:27am

re: #49 Honorary Yooper

It seems most interesting. One has to wonder if they can gain enough traction. If enough Rs get POed about the way the GOP is heading, that may be where to go.

At least I like owls!

51 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:35:40am

re: #49 Honorary Yooper

It seems most interesting. One has to wonder if they can gain enough traction. If enough Rs get POed about the way the GOP is heading, that may be where to go.


I agree.
I've contacted them; they are seeking a "chair" for Louisiana LOL.
Although I don't believe they are a recognized party here that one can be a "member" of, as far as voter registration rolls go.

I'll see what they have to say.

52 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:36:25am

re: #43 Thanos

Actually, I think we are in agreement on this. I just think it has more to do with the incompetence of the state GOP and their candidate than with anything done from Hoffman and his supporters. You're giving more weight to the outside support.

53 Morgoth  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:37:33am

Good grief, from the comments to that Frum piece:

frum why don't you take the moderates and join the democrats? people like you are why the republicans lose. I will never vote for a moderate republican. your 'big tent' is all about nominating liberals and berating conservatives to support them. think again, loser.

The spirit of John Milton's Heavenly Muse is alive and well, it seems.

Here in the UK the conservatives tried this ideological puritanism in response to the 1997 election and look where it got them.

54 Bob Levin  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:38:12am

There are only two words Republicans need to know: Milton and Friedman. Leave everything else at home.

55 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:38:47am

re: #52 lawhawk

Actually, I think we are in agreement on this. I just think it has more to do with the incompetence of the state GOP and their candidate than with anything done from Hoffman and his supporters. You're giving more weight to the outside support.

Ok, what's going to be interesting is if the GOP uses the existing law to Dis-enroll NY Conservative party members from their rolls. Expect fireworks if they do.

56 abbyadams  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:40:04am

re: #53 Morgoth

Did people like this fall asleep in civics class? Or, say, math class, in that apparently they forget that the majority passes bills/defeats bills in congress?

"Yay, let's have ideological purity, but no power!"

At least they'll sell books and bumper stickers, I guess.

57 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:41:11am

re: #53 Morgoth

Good grief, from the comments to that Frum piece:

The spirit of John Milton's Heavenly Muse is alive and well, it seems.

Here in the UK the conservatives tried this ideological puritanism in response to the 1997 election and look where it got them.

It's becoming a very popular position on the American right wing to drive out anyone who doesn't toe the line of social conservatism. That's the real litmus test for these people -- not economic policy, not fiscal responsibility, not national defense, but whether or not you hate gay people sufficiently and whether or not you want to take away women's right to choose an abortion.

Those two issues have become the overriding obsession of the right wing.

58 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:41:11am

re: #48 Cato the Elder

Palin was the first of the last straws for me.

My comment had nothing to do with Palin. It had to do with ex-LGFers

59 Cato the Elder  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:42:12am

RogueOne, if you're reading here, I owe you an apology over the "Balloon Boy" incident. Your comments were premature and offensively broad, but your instincts were right.

60 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:42:23am

re: #56 abbyadams

Did people like this fall asleep in civics class? Or, say, math class, in that apparently they forget that the majority passes bills/defeats bills in congress?

"Yay, let's have ideological purity, but no power!"

At least they'll sell books and bumper stickers, I guess.

And there lays the problem. There are no more 'civics" classes.

61 Cato the Elder  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:44:12am

re: #58 sattv4u2

My comment had nothing to do with Palin. It had to do with ex-LGFers

Including you in that comment was an accident.

62 tradewind  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:44:26am

Moderate Dems are fretting that the WH's attacks are counterproductive.
/They get it!/
[Link: www.politico.com...]

63 abbyadams  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:44:32am

re: #60 sattv4u2

Really? They're alive and well here in PA. Still a requirement in 9th grade, as is the government class in 12th.

64 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:45:19am

re: #61 Cato the Elder

Including you in that comment was an accident.

Thats me ,, the accidental tourist!

65 RogueOne  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:47:55am

re: #59 Cato the Elder

Thanks man. I promised to keep my humor in check, I have a tendency to say whatever pops in my head.

66 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:47:55am

re: #45 baier

Exactly!!!

67 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:48:04am

re: #55 Thanos

I don't think that's going to happen either, particularly since NY election law allows candidates to aggregate votes cast under all party lines in their name (so a candidate who is on the ballot under GOP and Conservative ballot gets to carry both in his overall tally). It's a protection in districts where one or the other party is weak.

68 fizzlogic  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:48:09am

The GOP has deeper problems than just the social cons running the party. The dogmatic view on Laissez-faire economics promoted by talk radio is another. After the collapse of our banking system, anyone who thinks less regulation is the answer has their head permanently stuck up their ass.

69 Soundboard Fez  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:49:22am

re: #13 Killgore Trout

I've always been a swing voter so it doesn't bother me much. A lot of long time Republicans might have a harder time pulling the D lever.

I should be a swing voter in that I have liberal tendencies on social issues, and a strong conservative streak on fiscal and military matters. But I'm a straight white guy and I really hardly ever vote social issues unless the GOP puts up a major moonbat. Even then I usually go for the third-party option.

I volunteered for McCain's campaign in 2000 and was pretty jacked up when he secured the nomination in 2008. Then he named his VP nominee and I defected, she creeped me out from day 1. It sucked and I hope I never have to do it again, but I'm getting less and less optimistic.

Had McCain been 20 years younger, or could I have been assured in advance that Palin would have quit the vice presidency too, then I would have still voted for him.

70 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:51:28am

re: #35 lawhawk

More on the NJ GOP dynamic. Steve Lonegan ran against Christie in the primary, and Lonegan was a conservative/libertarian. Lonegan lost, but hasn't gone on to attack Christie - putting party ahead of his disagreements with Christie. Daggett has come out of nowhere to run, which raises questions over his motivation, and what it might do to Christie's chances in a close election where even a few votes might be enough to give the nod to Corzine.

71 Soundboard Fez  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:51:48am

re: #45 baier

Maybe after some serious lizard vetting would I consider supporting a 3rd party.

I do it out of protest pretty often, when the big boys put up candidates I dislike. It would take massive vetting before I would ever dream of volunteering my time or $ to a third-party though.

72 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:52:20am

re: #68 trendsurfer

The GOP has deeper problems than just the social cons running the party. The dogmatic view on Laissez-faire economics promoted by talk radio is another. After the collapse of our banking system, anyone who thinks less regulation is the answer has their head permanently stuck up their ass.

I would argue it was goverment regulation in the first place set up by Jimmy Carter and unchallenged, yet compounded by subsequent administrations, that caused the mortgage industry to do what it did.

(takes breath...reinserts head.)

73 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:52:46am

re: #67 lawhawk

I don't think that's going to happen either, particularly since NY election law allows candidates to aggregate votes cast under all party lines in their name (so a candidate who is on the ballot under GOP and Conservative ballot gets to carry both in his overall tally). It's a protection in districts where one or the other party is weak.

For primaries?! That's just nuts...

74 Soundboard Fez  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:53:00am

re: #70 lawhawk

More on the NJ GOP dynamic. Steve Lonegan ran against Christie in the primary, and Lonegan was a conservative/libertarian. Lonegan lost, but hasn't gone on to attack Christie - putting party ahead of his disagreements with Christie. Daggett has come out of nowhere to run, which raises questions over his motivation, and what it might do to Christie's chances in a close election where even a few votes might be enough to give the nod to Corzine.

Daggett's pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, and the polling I've seen shows that he bleeds more support from Corzine than he does from Christie.

75 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:53:24am

re: #68 trendsurfer

Some of the regulations put in place have contributed to the credit market collapse, particularly those that forced lenders to provide credit to irresponsible individuals who lacked the capacity to repay. They also failed to enforce existing law, and additional regulations also add to the cost and complexity of compliance.

76 captdiggs  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:54:16am

re: #35 lawhawk

Another point of view on these elections is, how badly the democrats are doing despite the Obama win last November.
If Corzine wins in NJ, he will do so with the majority voting for other candidates.
Independents are often spoilers. In the case of NJ, without Daggett, Christie would be ahead by double digits. Corzine might well win, but with nearly 60% of the electorate voting against him.

77 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:54:48am

re: #73 Thanos

That's the way it is in the general election, which is why I don't seem them doing it in the primaries.

In NJ, if you're unaffiliated (independent), you can vote in either D or R election. It's a recipe for disaster here.

78 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:55:40am

re: #59 Cato the Elder

RogueOne, if you're reading here, I owe you an apology over the "Balloon Boy" incident. Your comments were premature and offensively broad, but your instincts were right.

While we are handing out apologies, one is due you from me, I went a little over the top when I saw you heading towards a doom and gloom view the other night. We all have bias, mine is to optimism which can sometimes make me respond more vociferously than I should.

79 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:56:06am

re: #76 captdiggs

I don't know about whether Christie would be ahead by double digits. I think he'd be ahead, and above the margin of error, but not by double digits. The real problem for Christie has been the money Corzine is throwing in to the race to stay in office.

80 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:56:19am

re: #45 baier

Maybe after some serious lizard vetting would I consider supporting a 3rd party.

The scariest moment of my citizen life was the Perot effort. I found
I might vote the same candidate as my FIL. Then Perot lost his stuff
and the fabric of the universe was restored.

81 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:57:05am

re: #77 lawhawk

That's the way it is in the general election, which is why I don't seem them doing it in the primaries.

In NJ, if you're unaffiliated (independent), you can vote in either D or R election. It's a recipe for disaster here.

Do you suspect D's will cross over to vote for Scozzafava, since their candidate is a shoe in for the primaries, or will they play sabotage and pick Hoffman knowing that they can defeat him easily?

82 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:58:36am

re: #80 Decatur Deb

The scariest moment of my citizen life was the Perot effort. I found
I might vote the same candidate as my FIL. Then Perot lost his stuff
and the fabric of the universe was restored.

That's also reminds me of the Buchanan brigade takeover of the reform party and the Jesse Ventura thing. I guess the party wasn't big enough for two hysterical populist blowhards.

83 tradewind  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 10:59:03am

re: #79 lawhawk
If Corzine can't pull this one out, NJ's rep for political corruption will suffer and they'll have to admit to LA that they're #2.
///

84 tradewind  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:00:16am

re: #82 Thanos
The two-party system is so ingrained that unless there is a (sorry, I hate the term too) paradigm shift like never before, no third party candidate can do anything but spoil.

85 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:01:17am

re: #82 Thanos

That's also reminds me of the Buchanan brigade takeover of the reform party and the Jesse Ventura thing. I guess the party wasn't big enough for two hysterical populist blowhards.

Yes--these tend to be personality cults rather than parties. Mod Whigs
could be different, since I don't see a charismatic leader.

86 captdiggs  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:01:25am

re: #79 lawhawk

I still think Christie has a shot at winning.
Many people end up reconsidering a vote for an independent who can't win, at the last minute.
The main point is, that the democrats are in serious trouble. There is a real attitude of "throw them all out", and not just in NJ.

87 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:05:25am

re: #81 Thanos

I don't think that's likely in NY-23 because the GOP has a 2-1 majority in that district. They wouldn't be favored even if Hoffman wins the race against Dede. That district tilts to the right. Figure about 150,000 vote in the district (possibly optimistic, but still well below past general elections in the district). Owens would probably get around 30% of the vote. That's pretty much guaranteed since that's how Democrats have fared in the past three elections in district. That means that Hoffman and Dede would split the remaining numbers. If Democrats are going to try and split the vote, it would be to aid Dede, not Hoffman, and that would guarantee Dede the win.

The 2000 race might be somewhat instructive, given that it was the last time there was a 3-party race, and the GOP candidate Bohlert won handily, with the conservative candidate beating out the Democrat challenger. It will most certainly be a closer race, but I don't think Owens will win, because votes aren't going to go his way rather than the GOP or Conservative candidate.

88 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:07:06am

re: #65 RogueOne

Thanks man. I promised to keep my humor in check, I have a tendency to say whatever pops in my head.

Don't check your humor. If people were really your friends, they
wouldn't feed you straight lines.

89 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:08:49am

re: #81 Thanos

A clarification - this isn't a primary, but a special general election. The candidates were picked by their respective party leadership for running in the general election following McHugh's resignation after being nominated to become Secretary of the Army.

90 fizzlogic  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:11:11am

re: #72 Oh no...Sand People!

re: #75 lawhawk

Yes yes, just as I said, talk radio's answer for our banking collapse was due to Jimmy Carter, and the CRA (with a little bit of Clinton fudging). :)

Let's avoid looking at the unregulated derivatives market with virtually no leverage requirements, protected by the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000--Laissez-faire baby.

For background you should watch Frontline's The Warning. Keep in mind, back then, Brooksley Born, was labeled a pal of marxist Hillary Clinton, whose only desire was to cripple our great nation's economy.

91 filetandrelease  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:11:59am

As a conservative Republican this is just what is needed. With Palin's support Hoffman just might pull it out. He is already receiving a huge cash influx from her followers. Just what he needs. The polls will be fun to watch in this race over the next week or so simply to gage her impact on the race. Some may be surprised.

The leaders in the Republican party either get the message, or get thrown out.

Generally, a candidate who supports teaching ID along with evolution is a deal breaker for me, but with some of these liberal Republicans running, I am starting to rethink that position. I think I would rather vote for a small government IDer, than a big government whatever.

It seems there are no perfect candidates. Pick you poison. Does anyone know if Hoffman is an IDer?

92 RogueOne  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:15:51am

re: #88 Decatur Deb

I've always said it wasn't my fault. If I wasn't supposed to laugh at people then they'd stop doing the stupid stuff that starts it.

///

93 philosophus invidius  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:16:01am

re: #91 filetandrelease

As a conservative Republican this is just what is needed.

"This" influx of money is a conservative Republican?

94 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:16:35am

re: #84 tradewind

(sorry, I hate the term too) paradigm shift


It's not important, but why do you hate the term paradigm shift?

95 webevintage  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:17:57am

re: #90 trendsurfer

re: #75 lawhawk

Yes yes, just as I said, talk radio's answer for our banking collapse was due to Jimmy Carter, and the CRA (with a little bit of Clinton fudging). :)

Let's avoid looking at the unregulated derivatives market with virtually no leverage requirements, protected by the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000--Laissez-faire baby.

For background you should watch Frontline's The Warning. Keep in mind, back then, Brooksley Born, was labeled a pal of marxist Hillary Clinton, whose only desire was to cripple our great nation's economy.

We finally watched that last night and I was speechless.
Angry and speechless.
I'm still a bit unable to form ideas except to say that we would be in a much better place if GReenspan had never met Rand and if the Masters of the Universe had not dismissed Born because she was a chick.

96 kellygrrrl  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:19:03am

the Republican Civil War is the most public airing of R-infighting I've ever seen. There is no turning back now. There is no way the Repubs can put up a Bob Dole or John McCain and expect the social conservatives to fall in line.
It's over.
All that remains is the fight to see who gets to keep the elephant. Though I assume the crazies will go off to the Conservative or Libertarian Party.
They should use a dinosaur with a western saddle as their mascot.

the social cons are going rogue

97 kellygrrrl  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:19:30am

btw, reading through the comments on that post is quite entertaining

98 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:19:45am

re: #94 suchislife

It's not important, but why do you hate the term paradigm shift?

Because Kuhn used it up in 1970.

99 webevintage  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:20:09am

I would love to get conservative opinions on health care reform, but would hate to hijack a thread.
Would it be rude to ask?

100 RogueOne  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:20:21am

bye all, I'm going to pick up my teenaged niece and nephew for the weekend so I'm going to miss all of your good points for a night or two. On the bright side, I have an entire evening of beating them on xbox planned. Not much sadder than an adult man looking forward to playing video games on a friday night.

101 filetandrelease  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:21:15am

re: #93 philosophus invidius

"This" influx of money is a conservative Republican?


?

102 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:22:22am

re: #90 trendsurfer

re: #75 lawhawk

Yes yes, just as I said, talk radio's answer for our banking collapse was due to Jimmy Carter, and the CRA (with a little bit of Clinton fudging). :)

Let's avoid looking at the unregulated derivatives market with virtually no leverage requirements, protected by the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000--Laissez-faire baby.

For background you should watch Frontline's The Warning. Keep in mind, back then, Brooksley Born, was labeled a pal of marxist Hillary Clinton, whose only desire was to cripple our great nation's economy.

There are times when the 'invisible hand' of the free market needs to be corrected, derivatives is a good example, but it's amazing how the government has managed to correct the 'invisible hand' with handcuffs on way too many occasions. The government has a bad habit of over reaching.

103 filetandrelease  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:23:13am

re: #99 webevintage

I would love to get conservative opinions on health care reform, but would hate to hijack a thread.
Would it be rude to ask?

Start with tort reform. Allow insurance companies to compete over state lines. If there is waste, find it, dont' spend it first.

104 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:23:28am

R + Fear of Evolution = Fear of Revolution

105 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:24:57am

re: #96 kellygrrrl

the Republican Civil War is the most public airing of R-infighting I've ever seen

Guess you're not old enough to recall the primaries of 1968
Nixon, Reagan, Rockefeller, Stassen and Volpe represented all different factions of the party,,VERY different!

106 webevintage  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:25:30am

re: #103 filetandrelease

Start with tort reform. Allow insurance companies to compete over state lines. If there is waste, find it, dont' spend it first.

But I thought studies had shown that in states that have passed tort refom there has been no savings?

107 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:25:51am

re: #99 webevintage

I would love to get conservative opinions on health care reform, but would hate to hijack a thread.
Would it be rude to ask?

"reform" is needed

Whats being proposed (HR 3200) is not! imho

108 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:26:28am

re: #89 lawhawk

A clarification - this isn't a primary, but a special general election. The candidates were picked by their respective party leadership for running in the general election following McHugh's resignation after being nominated to become Secretary of the Army.

Yes - I keep forgetting that this is a special, not a primary.

109 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:28:04am

re: #98 Decatur Deb

Because Kuhn used it up in 1970.

I loved William Shatner in that movie

The Wrath Of Kuhn!!

110 filetandrelease  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:28:46am

re: #106 webevintage

But I thought studies had shown that in states that have passed tort refom there has been no savings?


I haven't seen any such reports, do you have a link? And what states have any significant tort reform?

Studies paid for by lawyers?

111 ohpleaseno  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:31:35am

OT, but I wonder what you folks think of Steve Benen over here. I really like his blog for a good center left perspective.

Good post today about the Fox News kerfuffle.

[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:32:30am

re: #4 JasonA

The Party of Christ?

Savonarola had one of those.

113 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:33:20am

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

Savonarola had one of those.

Didn't he florence, or was he blocked?

114 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:37:51am

re: #110 filetandrelease

"A comprehensive new report from Northwestern's Kellogg School of Management, using a database of employer-sponsored health plans covering 10 million Americans, looked at the impact of tort reform measures already enacted in more than 30 states. The authors concluded that comprehensive, nationwide reforms would lower overall health-care costs by 2.3% at most."

[Link: www.businessweek.com...]

115 webevintage  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:38:25am

re: #110 filetandrelease

I haven't seen any such reports, do you have a link? And what states have any significant tort reform?

Studies paid for by lawyers?

I'll have to look, but Texas passed tort reform and I think Arkansas also.

116 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:38:46am

re: #114 suchislife

Didn't the Dems already agree to include it, anyway?

117 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:39:26am

re: #113 Decatur Deb

Didn't he florence, or was he blocked?

On the subject of famous Florentines, I wonder how many people know that old Machiavelli was, arguably, one of the strongest defenders of the republican form of government during the period of the renaissance, and that to judge the man solely on the Price is to ignore the very specific pursposes for which the work was written, the "peculiarities" of the work itself, and the fact that he claims in the epistle dedicatory at the start to be "compelled" to present this as a gift to a prince, whereas the epistle dedicatory of his Discourses of Livy explains that the work is freely written and intended for his friends. There are enough points of difference between the two works to suggest that Machiavelli was up to something very cunning indeed with his Prince.

118 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:39:50am

Someone upthread asked about R views on health care reform. It's a serious question, one which GW Bush should have tackled, it's one reason he will be in the record books a bit more negatively than he could be.
Health Care reform is a series of problems that add up to one sucking hole on the economy - these problems should be addressed individually with individual bills that would be sure sells and sure wins for all.

State to state transportability of policies, Coops and State plans of "last resort" should be enabled, Removal of "pre existing conditions" clauses from low end plans (premium plans should still be able to exclude based on these,) bills to reduce fraud across all Government provided care, incentives for rural care, and initiatives to encourage RN, Paramedic, and Care agent therapist education, we should look at regulations that prevent more boutique health services as well as those that discourage "flat fee providers."

Instead we have a pan-optical omnibus monster panacea that's part placebo rolling at us.

119 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:41:15am

re: #118 Thanos

...a pan-optical omnibus monster panacea that's part placebo rolling at us.

Beautiful summation.

120 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:41:40am

re: #117 Guanxi88

Visited his tomb at Santa Croce. (There are lots of good people in SC, but not
Dante.)

121 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:43:12am

re: #118 Thanos

Removal of "pre existing conditions" clauses from low end plans


Through regulation?

122 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:43:28am

re: #120 Decatur Deb

Visited his tomb at Santa Croce. (There are lots of good people in SC, but not
Dante.)

You lucky so & so. I've always wanted to visit Florence. Can you imagine what it must have been like when Machiavelli and Da Vinci met up, as we know they did? Two of the most powerful minds of one of the most complicated and fascinating periods in human history, meeting up over a civil engineering project?

123 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:43:51am

re: #121 suchislife

How else would you propose?

124 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:45:58am

re: #118 Thanos

Just asking for clarification.

125 webevintage  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:46:39am

re: #115 webevintage

I'll have to look, but Texas passed tort reform and I think Arkansas also.

[Link: www.rwjf.org...]

One study I could.
There were a number of blog posts and articles.
And yes tort reform has been included in all the bills so far.

126 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:47:13am

re: #123 Thanos

Is there an actual proposal by a republican politician along these lines?

127 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:48:30am

re: #122 Guanxi88

You lucky so & so.

You can't imagine the luck. US Army SETAF put me outside Venice
for 3 yrs. I had to give up career progression to get it, though.

128 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:49:43am

re: #127 Decatur Deb

You can't imagine the luck. US Army SETAF put me outside Venice
for 3 yrs. I had to give up career progression to get it, though.

I'd like to think I'd trade "worldly" progress for the intangible and lasting benefit of such a posting, but I know myself well enough that I wouldn't bet on it. Money-grubbing SOB that I am.

129 filetandrelease  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:49:45am

re: #114 suchislife

"A comprehensive new report from Northwestern's Kellogg School of Management, using a database of employer-sponsored health plans covering 10 million Americans, looked at the impact of tort reform measures already enacted in more than 30 states. The authors concluded that comprehensive, nationwide reforms would lower overall health-care costs by 2.3% at most."

[Link: www.businessweek.com...]


Call me a skeptic on their conclusions, but even 2.3% is nothing to sneeze at. The ABA is very powerful and I do not underestimate their ability to influence opinion or the Democrat party.

130 doubter4444  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:50:07am

re: #26 reine.de.tout

Contact the Whigs.

The only real way a third party is going to work is for a group of elected officials en mass to collectively form a third party.
I would love that.
If a handful of Senators and a bunch of congresspeople worked it out to declare a third way, with a set of principals and statement of intent, it would turn the political world on it's ear.
Won't happen, but one can dream.

131 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:52:03am

I have decided to whittle down the non RINO...

The "true and pure" GOP has as it's planks:

1. No fiscal responsibility - only bashing Dem spending, never their own, and given the history of the past 20 years, they spend more.

2. Big government, in terms of spying on you, policing you, and getting into your bedroom.

3. Forcing a certain brand of fundamentalist Christianity into the government and schools - this produces the following... 4-8

4. Anti AGW.

5. Anti- Darwin

6. Anti- stem cells

7. Sees Gay marriage and general homophobia as national issues.

8. Anti abortion.

9. Racist to a greater or lesser extent.

10. Fear mongering in place of debates and stifle questions.

11. Full of truly crazy conspiracies, nirthers, deathers, etc... and perfectly happy to lie about those things and the science and anything else, not pure.

12. Threatening.

I find that I can not get behind a single one of these planks.

132 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:52:07am

re: #125 webevintage

There's also this. [Link: insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu...]

133 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:52:11am

re: #114 suchislife

re: #129 filetandrelease

You also have to look beyond the 'savings" from the actual court actions. Doctors have been more prone to order extra tests/ procedures/ lab work so that in the off chanve they DO get sued it won;'t come back to haunt them on the stand ("Dr. soandso ,,, you did X and Y ,, why didn't you do Z")

Those extra tests add billions to care costs

134 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:52:22am

I felt the first rumblings of this Republican schism when there was talk of the Religious Right running its own candidate in 2008 if McCain got the nomination because he was not conservative enough for them on social issues.

Which, I believe, is one of the reasons he wound up with Sarah palin as a running mate: she was the quid pro quo to guarantee the continued support of the Religious Right.

And her turning rogue on her party also seems to confirm this suspicion.

135 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:52:36am

re: #128 Guanxi88

No regrets.

136 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:53:37am

re: #135 Decatur Deb

No regrets.

Only way to live.

137 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:54:00am

re: #129 filetandrelease

Yes, that's why they call it significant at the link and why the Democratic proposals include tort reform.

138 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:54:33am

re: #131 LudwigVanQuixote

I have decided to whittle down the non RINO...

The "true and pure" GOP has as it's planks:

1. No fiscal responsibility - only bashing Dem spending, never their own, and given the history of the past 20 years, they spend more.

2. Big government, in terms of spying on you, policing you, and getting into your bedroom.

3. Forcing a certain brand of fundamentalist Christianity into the government and schools - this produces the following... 4-8

4. Anti AGW.

5. Anti- Darwin

6. Anti- stem cells

7. Sees Gay marriage and general homophobia as national issues.

8. Anti abortion.

9. Racist to a greater or lesser extent.

10. Fear mongering in place of debates and stifle questions.

11. Full of truly crazy conspiracies, nirthers, deathers, etc... and perfectly happy to lie about those things and the science and anything else, not pure.

12. Threatening.

I find that I can not get behind a single one of these planks.

I'll make it an even 13, a lucky number:

13. Schismatic in the extreme.

139 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:55:47am

re: #133 sattv4u2

I repeat, that's why it's already in there. But I don't get why anyone would think it's the most important issue.

140 abbyadams  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:57:49am

I see the religious right problem thusly - they have historically been the "do-ers" of the GOP. GOTV, canvassing, etc. I think that for years, the GOP promised them things that they never delivered (e.g. overturn Roe v. Wade.)

With Palin elevated to possibly being elected to a real position of power within the GOP, they had their opening - and have no intention of backing down.

If the GOP cuts them off, they are going to lose many foot soldiers in the battle (not to mention votes.)

141 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:58:18am

re: #139 suchislife

I repeat, that's why it's already in there. But I don't get why anyone would think it's the most important issue.

HR 3200 includes tort reform?

142 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 11:59:06am

re: #126 suchislife

State plans of "last resort"

By this you don't mean a public option, right?

143 Yashmak  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:00:44pm

re: #40 reine.de.tout

Ojoe keeps telling us to check out the Modern Whig Party.

I would encourage that as well. It seems like everything we like about Republicans, without everything we don't like that they've been adopting lately. You get the conservative values without the soc-con agenda and the insanity.

144 webevintage  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:00:58pm

re: #118 Thanos

Someone upthread asked about R views on health care reform. It's a serious question, one which GW Bush should have tackled, it's one reason he will be in the record books a bit more negatively than he could be.
Health Care reform is a series of problems that add up to one sucking hole on the economy - these problems should be addressed individually with individual bills that would be sure sells and sure wins for all.

State to state transportability of policies, Coops and State plans of "last resort" should be enabled, Removal of "pre existing conditions" clauses from low end plans (premium plans should still be able to exclude based on these,) bills to reduce fraud across all Government provided care, incentives for rural care, and initiatives to encourage RN, Paramedic, and Care agent therapist education, we should look at regulations that prevent more boutique health services as well as those that discourage "flat fee providers."

Instead we have a pan-optical omnibus monster panacea that's part placebo rolling at us.

Thank you.
I support an option for a public option as a choice offered to Americans.
We have great insurance, BUT my husband is now locked into working for the same employer since with cancer he now has a pre-existing condition.

I also worry "what if something happened to him"?
I run a small on-line business and health insurance would be out of the question for me as it is for many of the other business owners I know on-line or in "real life".
They just do not go to the Doctor until they are really, really sick...or have on-line fund raisers to pay for treatment for breast cancer.
(Even with our insurance I had to wait months to see an endocrinologist until my husband's care used up our whole deductible since we did not have to pay the deductible and they would not see me unless we could pay up front.)

Now the last I heard the CBO had scored both house bills with a public options and they were deficit neutral and in the end would save money.
I'm just not sure what is the opposition is to a program that is not "free" as those who can afford it would pay premiums, is not something you have to use and is not gov't run health care?

145 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:01:58pm

Must resume life for a while.

146 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:03:07pm

re: #141 sattv4u2
Looking it up right now!

147 webevintage  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:03:45pm

Really I am just counting down the years until I can get on medicare.
15 and counting...
My dad says it is the best thing that ever happened to them...and he was Teamster so you know he had great insurance though UPS.

148 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:06:02pm

re: #146 suchislife

Looking it up right now!

I'll save you the trouble

It's not

149 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:07:24pm

re: #140 abbyadams

I see the religious right problem thusly - they have historically been the "do-ers" of the GOP. GOTV, canvassing, etc. I think that for years, the GOP promised them things that they never delivered (e.g. overturn Roe v. Wade.)

With Palin elevated to possibly being elected to a real position of power within the GOP, they had their opening - and have no intention of backing down.

I saw the extent that Ronald Regan used the Religious Right to get elected and then quickly cast them aside while he had his wife plan his daily itinerary based on her astrologer's recommendations...

They decided that they were not gonna get fooled again, and they started a program of insinuating their people into various levels of of government, up to the very highest. Sarah Palin was to be their triumphal coup, but it all went haywire.

Right now, it looks like all that can save them is the Second Coming, and I suspect they have already formed an exploratory committe to look into how to start bringing that about...

If the GOP cuts them off, they are going to lose many foot soldiers in the battle (not to mention votes.)

150 Liberal Classic  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:08:58pm

re: #131 LudwigVanQuixote

The Rino party has a ready-made mascot.

151 filetandrelease  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:09:07pm

re: #131 LudwigVanQuixote

I have decided to whittle down the non RINO...

The "true and pure" GOP has as it's planks:

1. No fiscal responsibility - only bashing Dem spending, never their own, and given the history of the past 20 years, they spend more.

2. Big government, in terms of spying on you, policing you, and getting into your bedroom.

3. Forcing a certain brand of fundamentalist Christianity into the government and schools - this produces the following... 4-8

4. Anti AGW.

5. Anti- Darwin

6. Anti- stem cells

7. Sees Gay marriage and general homophobia as national issues.

8. Anti abortion.

9. Racist to a greater or lesser extent.

10. Fear mongering in place of debates and stifle questions.

11. Full of truly crazy conspiracies, nirthers, deathers, etc... and perfectly happy to lie about those things and the science and anything else, not pure.

12. Threatening.

I find that I can not get behind a single one of these planks.

Inaccurate and insulting. The fringe elements on both ends do not define non Rhinos.

And no, I am no going down your list. It is clear your intent was to offer petty insults, not encourage any dialog. A similar list could easily be created for the left.

A total waste of time. It is beneath you.

152 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:10:55pm

re: #148 sattv4u2

You're right. I could have sworn I saw something about the Dem's caving in on this issue. Btw., while looking for it, I found this argument against it. [Link: www.slate.com...]
Do you think those are good points or not at all?

153 mikhailtheplumber  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:11:09pm

Oh, big tent GOP. We hardly knew ye.

154 spoosmith  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:12:22pm

re: #68 trendsurfer

The GOP has deeper problems than just the social cons running the party. The dogmatic view on Laissez-faire economics promoted by talk radio is another. After the collapse of our banking system, anyone who thinks less regulation is the answer has their head permanently stuck up their ass.


Agreed. In spades.

155 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:14:38pm

re: #151 filetandrelease


But they do have a few key elements that annoy me:

1) massive military spending, maximum outsourcing with minimal oversight

2) continued reliance on fossil fuels and nuclear energy as primary sources of energy

3) anti-abortion, anti gay marriage and anti-stem cell research

4) anti evolution in schools

5) minimum regulation of financial industry, but bailouts when the system collapses

6) A tax system that encourages tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy but does little to encourage them to invest their money in anything that creates domestic jobs.

156 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:14:41pm

re: #151 filetandrelease

A total waste of time. It is beneath you

It's actually been pretty common for him. Slash and burn the right and then complain when HE gets "slighted"

157 Yashmak  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:17:55pm

re: #151 filetandrelease

Inaccurate and insulting. The fringe elements on both ends do not define non Rhinos.

And no, I am no going down your list. It is clear your intent was to offer petty insults, not encourage any dialog. A similar list could easily be created for the left.

A total waste of time. It is beneath you.

I beg to differ. If you go by the discourse on most major conservative blogs these days, he summed up the points pretty nicely. The one area where I differ from his list, is that most conservatives even on those blogs still bash the Republicans for out of control spending too (for example, Malkin's site bashed the Bush administration loud and long over the initial bailout, referring to it oh-so-intellectually as "crap sandwich").

However, if you mention that you think some facets of AGW seem to be supported by science, you're labelled a "neo-intellectual" (as if intellectual is now an insult!), or just called the catch-all "liberal". Make any statement on alot of these sites opposing a pro-life view, and you're instantly labelled a "eugenicist" or outright compared to Himmler. THAT'S not encouraging dialogue, for sure. Same goes for any suggestion that stem cell research might prove valuable. Express any view in opposition to legislation against gays, or in support of legislation in their favor, and instantly commenters start implying that you're gay yourself. It's RIDICULOUS.

It's impossible for me to believe that most of these folks aren't saying what they mean, and there are ALOT of them out there, and more and more lately, the conservative talking heads are catering to them.

158 Soundboard Fez  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:18:38pm

re: #118 Thanos


State to state transportability of policies,

Most of the concepts you identified I'm in total agreement with, but this one gives me the heebie-jeebies.

I would expect the health insurance industry to quickly mirror the credit card industry, where South Dakota and Delaware eliminated usury to attract issuers to their states.

159 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:19:40pm

re: #157 Yashmak


I come to this site to escape that level of discourse. Please, there are plenty of places to find it other than here...

160 Yashmak  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:20:49pm

re: #159 ralphieboy

I come to this site to escape that level of discourse. Please, there are plenty of places to find it other than here...

You realize, of course, that I was describing places other than here, right?

161 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:24:14pm

re: #155 ralphieboy

But they do have a few key elements that annoy me:

1) massive military spending, maximum outsourcing with minimal oversight
THE job of the Federal gov;t is to protect this nation
As far as 'outsourcing", lets not forget that Clinton was the 1st to "hire" Haliburton. Also, the defense contract industry has thrived under ALL admins
2) continued reliance on fossil fuels and nuclear energy as primary sources of energy
As opposed to the dems "wind farms"? Check out who was opposed to those off the coast of Cape Cod
3) anti-abortion, anti gay marriage and anti-stem cell research
The very far right, yes. Most ,,, NO,,, and as far as anti-stem research. Pres Bush was FOR it, just not subsidized by the feds

4) anti evolution in schools

Again ,,only the very FAR right. My son goes to a private Christain school, that does NOT teach ID and DOES teach evolution. When we went loikking for a school for him we visited a dozen private schools and NON of them taught ID

5) minimum regulation of financial industry, but bailouts when the system collapses

TARP was desigmned to prop up the financial institutions (with a payback with interest) NOT a "bailout"

6) A tax system that encourages tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy but does little to encourage them to invest their money in anything that creates domestic jobs.

Check why some states attract business (and therefore jobs) while others are losing businesses (and therefore jobs). Apply that to the FED taxes and look at Ireland

162 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:26:37pm

re: #157 Yashmak

re: #151 filetandrelease

The fringe elements on both ends do not define non Rhinos.

I had this exchange with Lidane a few days ago:

That's because the part of the right that fell over the ledge are the folks that are in the media and who make up the party base that is most active in the primaries. They're the ones setting the tone for the discussion, and most of the politicians on the right are either in agreement or are too scared to alienate these people out of fear for their jobs.

So what you're saying is that the problematic republicans are the ones in the media, the ones that vote, the agenda setters, and the politicians. Add to that, the ones who go demonstrate. Frankly, those are exactly all the people that comprise a political party.

163 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:28:12pm

re: #157 Yashmak

I beg to differ. If you go by the discourse on most major conservative blogs these days, he summed up the points pretty nicely. The one area where I differ from his list, is that most conservatives even on those blogs still bash the Republicans for out of control spending too (for example, Malkin's site bashed the Bush administration loud and long over the initial bailout, referring to it oh-so-intellectually as "crap sandwich").

However, if you mention that you think some facets of AGW seem to be supported by science, you're labelled a "neo-intellectual" (as if intellectual is now an insult!), or just called the catch-all "liberal". Make any statement on alot of these sites opposing a pro-life view, and you're instantly labelled a "eugenicist" or outright compared to Himmler. THAT'S not encouraging dialogue, for sure. Same goes for any suggestion that stem cell research might prove valuable. Express any view in opposition to legislation against gays, or in support of legislation in their favor, and instantly commenters start implying that you're gay yourself. It's RIDICULOUS.

It's impossible for me to believe that most of these folks aren't saying what they mean, and there are ALOT of them out there, and more and more lately, the conservative talking heads are catering to them.

I agree. I think LVB summed up the current state of the right wing pretty well. All of his points can be easily confirmed just by following the news, or by checking almost any right wing blog.

And those points are why the Republican Party has lost me.

164 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:29:06pm

re: #162 suchislife

I asked Thanos earlier in the thread to link to a Republican politician proposing anything as sensible (though I don't agree) as his ideas.

165 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:31:28pm

re: #8 Honorary Yooper

Well I am late to this thread, been at the drafting board, but here is the usual Whig directional post:

Don't like either major party ? Voting more now but liking it less?

Try:
The Modern Whig Party.
Whig Video.


Thank you for your attention.

166 cliffster  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:34:15pm

re: #165 Ojoe

Ojoe's bot speaks!

167 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:35:58pm

Charles, I noticed earlier that not all comments and ratings show up on LGF Spy and lately, it didn't automatically add new comments for me. Is that probably due to a problem on my side?

168 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:37:22pm

re: #161 sattv4u2

1) I got no problem with military spending, or with outsourcing it, but the lack of oversight and accountability seriously bothers me.

2) Our nation's growth does not depend on the amount of energy it consumes or produces, but how efficiently it generates and consumes its energy. That is a lesson that we are slow in learning.

3) You're right, McCain was not unreasonable on abortion, but he nearly lost the support of the Religious Right for being so

4) You're not in Kansas, thank God!

5) The governement (granted, starting under Clinton) continued to run down the level of regulation and oversight in the financial industry, which allowed this melt-down to take place. Given the choice between regulation up front and intervention after the fact, i will take the regulation.

6) I am talking about jobs migrating overseas, the individual states are simply scrambling for the remaining scraps.

169 Yashmak  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:39:20pm

re: #163 Charles

I agree. I think LVB summed up the current state of the right wing pretty well. All of his points can be easily confirmed just by following the news, or by checking almost any right wing blog.

And those points are why the Republican Party has lost me.

Indeed. Those positions, and the non-stop calls/mailers for donations (in spite of requests that they stop callling) are why they're in the process of losing me as well.

The truly insane part, is that they're catering to a smaller and smaller portion of their base (when demographics tend to indicate that the socially conservative portion of our nation is actually slowly declining over the decades), while more and more previously loyal Republicans (like myself) flee the party day by day in response to this continuing nonsense. Is there no one in the entire party who can make this plain to the rest?

170 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:41:05pm

re: #168 ralphieboy

6) I am talking about jobs migrating overseas, the individual states are simply scrambling for the remaining scraps.

Thats why I mentioned Ireland. As soon as they dropped their corporate tax rate(s) businesses from all over started to set up shop there, their unemployment went down and their GDP increased

171 filetandrelease  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:41:43pm

re: #155 ralphieboy

But they do have a few key elements that annoy me:

1) massive military spending, maximum outsourcing with minimal oversight

2) continued reliance on fossil fuels and nuclear energy as primary sources of energy

3) anti-abortion, anti gay marriage and anti-stem cell research

4) anti evolution in schools

5) minimum regulation of financial industry, but bailouts when the system collapses

6) A tax system that encourages tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy but does little to encourage them to invest their money in anything that creates domestic jobs.

1 and 2 though weighted on the R side of the isle are problems with both parties. Although as a conservative I do support a strong military. I would like to see less abortions, but keep the government out of it, including paying for it.

The religious's right efforts to take control of the Repulican party is not a main stream conservative agenda. It is a fringe element with a loud voice perpetuated by the media trying to take over the party.

Non Rhinos are not happy with the current tax structure in this county. Ideas from "Flat tax" to 0 tax on corporations are often floated in non rhino circles.

Number 6 crossed both party lines.

It would be easy to create a stupid list for the left in this country.

They want to take away guns, they want sex ed in elementary school, they want to pay retribution for slavery, ...

It is just silly, IMO. Perfect for other blogs.

172 filetandrelease  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:43:06pm

re: #162 suchislife

re: #151 filetandrelease


So what you're saying is that the problematic republicans are the ones in the media, the ones that vote, the agenda setters, and the politicians. Add to that, the ones who go demonstrate. Frankly, those are exactly all the people that comprise a political party.

Nope, not what I said.

173 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:43:23pm

Ireland is in a tailspin these days, they got caught up in the US credit crunch big time. Their growth was based almost entirely on EU subsidies and unsecured loans. To me, they are the prime example against that approach.

174 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:44:34pm

re: #171 filetandrelease

The religious's right efforts to take control of the Repulican party is not a main stream conservative agenda. It is a fringe element with a loud voice perpetuated by the media trying to take over the party.

This is totally wrong. The religious right is already in control of the Republican Party. The only reason why John McCain picked Sarah Palin instead of any number of much more qualified VP candidates, was because James Dobson and his millions of followers were prepared to stay home from the polls rather than vote for McCain. McCain made a purely political decision to appease the religious right -- and it worked. Dobson withdrew his opposition.

And McCain still lost.

That's how much power the religious right has in the GOP. It's the dominant force right now.

175 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:46:23pm

re: #172 filetandrelease

That's my response to Lidane, obviously.

176 abbyadams  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:50:43pm

re: #171 filetandrelease

Okay, I was following along your train of thought until this -

They want to take away guns, they want sex ed in elementary school, they want to pay retribution for slavery,

Those are general right wing talking points. Scores no points.

And I notice you use the term 'Democrat party." I don't think you should be calling anyone else out for being insulting.

BBL.

177 Liberally Conservative  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 12:58:35pm

re: #171 filetandrelease

They want to take away guns, they want sex ed in elementary school, they want to pay retribution for slavery, ...

Lolwut?

178 Liberally Conservative  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 1:00:34pm

re: #151 filetandrelease

Inaccurate and insulting. The fringe elements on both ends do not define non Rhinos.

And no, I am no going down your list. It is clear your intent was to offer petty insults, not encourage any dialog. A similar list could easily be created for the left.

A total waste of time. It is beneath you.

Considering you called a similar list this.

179 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 1:00:50pm

re: #174 Charles

This is totally wrong. The religious right is already in control of the Republican Party. The only reason why John McCain picked Sarah Palin instead of any number of much more qualified VP candidates, was because James Dobson and his millions of followers were prepared to stay home from the polls rather than vote for McCain. McCain made a purely political decision to appease the religious right -- and it worked. Dobson withdrew his opposition.

And McCain still lost.

That's how much power the religious right has in the GOP. It's the dominant force right now.


That's pretty much how I saw it as well. And now Sarah is willing to go rogue on her own party if it is not ideolocially pure enough for her.


And if they wanna call it the "Democrat Party", how about we start calling it the "Republic Party"?

180 filetandrelease  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 1:01:33pm

re: #174 Charles

This is totally wrong. The religious right is already in control of the Republican Party. The only reason why John McCain picked Sarah Palin instead of any number of much more qualified VP candidates, was because James Dobson and his millions of followers were prepared to stay home from the polls rather than vote for McCain. McCain made a purely political decision to appease the religious right -- and it worked. Dobson withdrew his opposition.

And McCain still lost.

That's how much power the religious right has in the GOP. It's the dominant force right now.

Yes, and on the other side, of those of us in the center of the republican party, are the elites who keep promoting Rhinos to run for office.

181 filetandrelease  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 1:02:07pm

re: #175 suchislife

Sorry, at least I was right on that one.

182 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 1:12:26pm

re: #180 filetandrelease

Yes, and on the other side, of those of us in the center of the republican party, are the elites who keep promoting Rhinos to run for office.

I don't understand what that means.

183 filetandrelease  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 1:35:42pm

re: #182 suchislife

I don't understand what that means.

IMO, the Republican party has those promoting their religious beliefs into the party platform and pushing their nominees to run for office on one side, and party elites promoting rhinos on the other side. True conservatism is in the middle. True conservatism values separation of church and state, and small government. Amongst other things.

184 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 1:44:30pm

re: #126 suchislife

Is there an actual proposal by a republican politician along these lines?

Sorry for the delay here, we decided to take the pups to the park. The R's are making noises like this, but there isn't a cohesive detailed plan. Each of those above should have been proffered as single bills while the R's were in control.

185 Randall Gross  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 1:50:15pm

re: #158 Soundboard Fez

State to state transportability of policies,

Most of the concepts you identified I'm in total agreement with, but this one gives me the heebie-jeebies.

I would expect the health insurance industry to quickly mirror the credit card industry, where South Dakota and Delaware eliminated usury to attract issuers to their states.

I'm thinking that the increase in competition would force lower prices with benefit enough to outweigh the negatives. All of these really open up new market areas for insurance companies.

186 Pepper Fox  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 2:04:02pm

I'm curious to see if the republicans will ever recover from this. Will the Republican party eventually cease to exist as a major political party? Or will a renaissance occur when it gets to a certain point that people say ENOUGH.

187 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 4:29:42pm

re: #11 Rightwingconspirator

why you gotta be hatin' on that poor Mccain girl... ???

//

188 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 4:40:05pm

re: #183 filetandrelease

that sounds a little Dogmatic.

Conservatism should be about what works - aspects of Government do good work and promising to Salami slice it gets you in trouble with the voters years down the line when you get to washington and find out that the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, Education, H&HS, FDA and other agencies do valuable work and would be missed by voters.
Conservatism should not be radical - it should be managerial. Fix what doesn't work, trim here and snip there.

In the end - after long spells in the wilderness - what gets parties back into government is a veneer of competence.
After 18 years of Torys in the UK the Labour party got its act together and seemed competent - they were elected. After 12 years of Labour the Torys are no longer a febrile shell and seem electable.

The problem with the GOP is that they are not electable and scare the Jebus out of people. The GOP needs to regroup, drop teh crazy and start co-operating with Obama on something - doesn't have to be big - just has to be something. When people see them looking like they can help to run stuff it's a few less steps to making people believe they could actually arrange a piss up in a brewery on a national level.

189 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 4:43:59pm

re: #184 Thanos

So there where some trial baloons? Some op-eds?

190 Achilles Tang  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 4:44:17pm

Is it possible (I'm not a political science expert) to have a perpetual minority party in what is essentially a two party system?

Would not that inevitably devolve into a one party system, or a multi party coalition one (as one sees in Europe)?

191 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 4:57:17pm

re: #190 Naso Tang

on a national politcal level in the UK there are three parties in the Parliament of 650 seats.

Labour - 343
Tory - 159
Liberal Democrat - 63

(i know they don't tally)

But - it is possible - Tory and Labour are almost clones of each other at this point in policy terms and the Lib-Dems (the most liberal and relatively left wing economically) pick up votes around the fringes and even have their own small heart land. But - the Lib-Dems in their current form are Splitters from the Labour Party in the mid-80s when it went too far left.

They typcially get a fifth of the national vote in elections. A sane centre-right party that split from the GOp with recognisable names and safe seats could form a basis of a power bloc in the House and Senate. They would only need a extra few seats overall taken in purple areas to demand a seat at the table over getting legislation passed if they were willing to work both sides of the Aisle

192 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 5:07:53pm

re: #191 wozzablog

It's hard to imagine America with a multi party system. I believe that if the Gop actually split, other parties would emerge. But I don't think there is any chance of that, actually.

193 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 5:18:46pm

i didn't mention the likelyhood of success or probbalillity... i rate it as minimal.

It would be healthier for the democracy - but so would paper ballots with pencils on strings in voting booths - that ain't happening any time soon either.

194 suchislife  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 5:32:51pm

re: #193 wozzablog

i didn't mention the likelyhood of success or probbalillity.

I know. I was just musing.

It would be healthier for the democracy - but so would paper ballots with pencils on strings in voting booths - that ain't happening any time soon either.

And enough voting booths.

195 Achilles Tang  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 5:37:03pm

re: #191 wozzablog

Good summary. Thanks, but you forgot when Labor was more or less communist in the late 60's.

However one difference that I think I see with your analysis is that in Europe one does not have a key block that sees itself in terms of religious fundamentals that transcend common politics, and by religious I mean also economic principles seen as much as religion as economics. (Needless to say, they are not the only ones who can be accused of that).

196 Achilles Tang  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 5:41:35pm

re: #174 Charles

Really? Makes sense and, to some extent in retrospect, makes more sense than the naive vanilla choice of Palin. I didn't realize that McCain was quite so calculating. I presume some may disagree with your analysis however, or is this now documented in history?

197 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 5:45:28pm

re: #195 Naso Tang

That 60's period wasn't as impactful as the split in '85 to the SDLP in forming the 3 party system. And Labour was significantly more left wing in '45 too.

The Torys in the 60's too were pretty left wing economically - it was a period of Detente when the State held masses of Industry and Finance. That wasn't broken til Thatcher.

Yup - there are fringe "Christian" patries in all EU countries - but they are mostly nuts who woulld Allign with Palin socially except they are usuallt Statist economically.
Christian Democrats in Germany are - well - European Religious (i.e not at all).

There is religion in Europe but it's kept private - the gnashing and wailing about the genocide of the unborn and end times doesn't happen on mainstream teevee here. People keep religion to a Sunday and render under Ceaser much more willingly than in the States.

198 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Oct 23, 2009 5:47:35pm

re: #195 Naso Tang

and thanks :-)

199 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 24, 2009 5:16:34am
200 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 24, 2009 5:24:43am

re: #199 Noah_Vaile

Actually, I'm almost certain that if the GOP had run anyone other than McCain, Obama would've won by a far larger margin. Who would you have run?


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