Fort Hood Updates

US News • Views: 2,666

There are unconfirmed reports that Major Malik Nadal Hasan was shouting “Allah Akbar” during his alleged shooting rampage at Fort Hood Army base.

CBS Video

President Obama made a statement today, urging people not to jump to conclusions.

We don’t know all the answers yet. And I would caution against jumping to conclusions until we have all the facts. What we do know is that there are families, friends and an entire nation grieving right now for the valiant men and women who came under attack yesterday.

The hero of this incident is Sgt. Kimberly Munley, who brought the gunman’s rampage to an end by shooting him four times.

Sgt. Munley, 34 years old, was credited by Army officials with firing the bullets that brought down Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Army psychiatrist who allegedly opened fire in the base’s Soldier Readiness Processing Center on Thursday afternoon.

Survivors described the scene as chaotic: the lone gunman spraying bullets in all directions, unarmed soldiers falling, screaming, scrambling to respond. Many soldiers ripped off their uniforms to use as tourniquets; others ignored their own injuries to help those more gravely wounded.

Lt. Gen. Bob Cone, the top commander at Fort Hood, said Friday that Sgt. Munley and her partner responded within three minutes of reported gunfire. Gen. Cone said Sgt. Munley shot the gunman four times despite being shot herself. “It was an amazing and an aggressive performance by this police officer,” he said.

Sgt. Munley is in stable condition.

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306 comments
1 bosforus  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:50:10am
President Obama made a statement today, urging people not to jump to conclusions.

He would urge that.
//

2 EastSider  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:50:54am

So I was firmly in the “lets not jump to conclusions” camp yesterday. However several pieces of evidence have come out today, and many signs point to religion as a likely, if not necessarily exclusive motive.

3 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:50:54am
Gen. Cone said Sgt. Munley shot the gunman four times despite being shot herself.

There’s only one word for a woman like that- HERO.

4 Gang of One  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:51:54am

How will CAIR and the apologists spin this?

5 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:52:15am

re: #3 Sharmuta

There’s only one word for a woman like that- HERO.

I was going to say BADASS.

6 EastSider  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:52:54am

re: #4 Gang of One

How will CAIR and the apologists spin this?

cair.com

They don’t seem too thrilled.

7 John Neverbend  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:53:35am

If you accept the hypothesis that the major was psychotic, does it really make any difference whether or not he shouted “Allahu Akbar”?

8 Bagua  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:53:47am

Sgt. Kimberly Munley is a true American Hero.

Many officers are trained to secure the perimeter and wait for back up when faced with an armed suspect inside a building. She rushed in not knowing how many shooters there were or what weapons she faced.

This is true bravery and valor.

9 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:53:56am

Manager: Muslim sticker removed from suspect’s car

KILLEEN — An apartment complex manager says the man accused of opening fire at Fort Hood, Texas recently had a religious bumper sticker torn off his car.

The manager, John Thompson, says a fellow soldier allegedly keyed Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan’s car and ripped up the bumper sticker. Thompson says the soldier had been to Iraq and was upset to learn Hasan was Muslim.

Thompson, who manages the Killeen, Texas complex where Hasan lives, says the bumper sticker read: “Allah is Love.” In Arabic, Allah means God.

A report filed on Aug. 16 with Killeen police says Hasan’s car had been scratched causing $1,000 worth of damage. The report says an Army employee had been arrested. It didn’t provide more details about what happened.

10 Gang of One  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:54:04am

re: #6 EastSider

[Link: www.cair.com…]

They don’t seem too thrilled.

Good on them. Right response.

11 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:54:11am

re: #2 EastSider

I agree, I don’t think there’s much doubt that he was at least in part religiously motivated.

12 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:54:31am

re: #8 Bagua

Sgt. Kimberly Munley is a true American Hero.

Many officers are trained to secure the perimeter and wait for back up when faced with an armed suspect inside a building. She rushed in not knowing how many shooters there were or what weapons she faced.

This is true bravery and valor.

New training for critical incidents - protocol now is go with weapons drawn toward the sound of the shooting. Securing the perimeter only gives the shooter time to do his damage.

13 Haole  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:55:16am

Man I miss the old LGF logo bug.

14 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:55:21am

re: #9 NJDhockeyfan

Thompson, who manages the Killeen, Texas complex where Hasan lives, says the bumper sticker read: “Allah is Love.” In Arabic, Allah means God.


Well, I guess he proved his point.
/

15 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:55:24am

I’ll say it again.

CHICK COPS ROCK!

16 EastSider  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:56:00am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

I agree, I don’t think there’s much doubt that he was at least in part religiously motivated.

Yup. There are hints at some other serious mental problems as well.

My hypothesis would be that the investigation will not reveal an extensive conspiracy or ties to shadowy figures in various caves and basements, but a single disturbed and deeply religious person.

17 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:56:19am
18 lizzel  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:56:48am

I am not sure if that was mentioned but this article from AP
On a form filled out by those seeking spouses through a program at the mosque, Hasan listed his birthplace as Arlington, Va., but his nationality as Palestinian, Khan said.

Says that he considered himself Palestinian

19 lawhawk  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:57:33am

The video showing him wearing Muslim garb yesterday morning jibes with the possibility that he shouted Allahu Akbar - mutually reinforcing the likelihood that this was a jihad style attack. That so many were injured and the necessity to reload to cause as much carnage as he did with his sidearms suggests premeditation.

The investigation continues.

20 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:57:37am

re: #18 lizzel

I am not sure if that was mentioned but this article from AP
On a form filled out by those seeking spouses through a program at the mosque, Hasan listed his birthplace as Arlington, Va., but his nationality as Palestinian, Khan said.

Says that he considered himself Palestinian

Parents were from Jordan according to other stories so it could very well be.

21 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:57:48am

For those lizards (and non-lizards who read LGF) in the Ft Hood area.

How to donate blood in Austin and surroundings

For those who can’t take the time to go To Scott and White University Medical Center near Temple to give blood, there is a closer option.

The Blood and Tissue Center of Central Texas has three locations here and is taking blood donations today. The blood people donate today probably wouldn’t go directly to the victims of Thursday’s Fort Hood shootings — testing takes at least 48 hours before the blood is available — but it would replenish blood and plasma that the center sent to the Fort Hood area Thursday.

Nancy Stugart, chief operating officer of the blood and tissue center, said the center sent 100 pints of blood to Fort Hood-area hospitals immediately on Thursday, as well as plasma.

Here are the locations to give blood:

North: 1015 W. University Avenue, Suite 340, Georgetown

Cental: 4300 North Lamar Boulevard, Austin

South: 9500 S. Interstate 35, Building L, Suite 800, Southpark Meadows shopping center in South Austin.

22 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:57:56am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

I agree, I don’t think there’s much doubt that he was at least in part religiously motivated.

Then it’s a fitting a woman took him down.

23 Bagua  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:58:14am

This is sure waking up the class of 2004 sleepers.

24 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:58:27am

re: #22 Sharmuta

Then it’s a fitting a woman took him down.

GAH! No “a”.

25 Bagua  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:58:42am

re: #22 Sharmuta

Then it’s a fitting a woman took him down.

Infidel women are tough.

26 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:58:57am

re: #24 Sharmuta

GAH! No “a”.

Still a great post!

27 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:59:00am

re: #7 John Neverbend

If you accept the hypothesis that the major was psychotic, does it really make any difference whether or not he shouted “Allahu Akbar”?

Yes it does.

28 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:59:51am

More blood info here.

STBTC Supports Fort Hood Victims

(San Antonio, Texas)

UPDATED: 10 a.m. (11/6/09)

STBTC also has a need for O negative donors. O- donors are universal donors whose blood can be given to anyone in an emergency. If you are O-negative and elegible to donate, we ask that you donate as soon as possible.

UPDATED: November 6, 2009 9 a.m.

STBTC is helping support the platelet needs for the victims at Fort Hood. Due to the tremendous response from the community, all the appointment slots to donate platelets have been filled for today. You may still call to schedule an appointment for Saturday, Sunday and into next week.

The number is 731-5590. We are receiving a high volume of calls, so please be patient and leave a message when necessary and we will return your call.

29 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 10:59:56am

Something is wrong with the “literature” that would inspire this.

30 abolitionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:01:04am

Good news that Sgt. Munley is in stable condition.

Altho Hasan’s condition has been described as unconscious and stable, I would take issue with that.

31 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:01:20am
32 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:01:28am

re: #19 lawhawk

The video showing him wearing Muslim garb yesterday morning jibes with the possibility that he shouted Allahu Akbar - mutually reinforcing the likelihood that this was a jihad style attack. That so many were injured and the necessity to reload to cause as much carnage as he did with his sidearms suggests premeditation.

The investigation continues.

I think we see premeditation but not a lot of planning - the car keying incident might have been a trigger/lame excuse to a sociopath, the pro muslim stance just part of the usual sociopath resistance to authority and consensus. This to me is SJS, of the “well you if think I’m a terrorist, I’ll show you” variety…

33 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:01:29am

re: #26 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Still a great post!

I’m so damned proud of my sister at this moment, regardless of what this psycho’s motivations were- doesn’t matter. She took the bastard down.

You GO, Girl!

34 theheat  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:02:09am

re: #29 Ojoe

By the rational, why don’t you ask Scott Roeder about that.

35 J.S.  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:02:11am

re: #29 Ojoe

You mean all the psychological literature on PTSD?
/

36 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:02:15am
37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:02:39am

re: #33 Sharmuta

Your SISTAH FROM ANOTHA MISTAH!

38 The Optimist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:02:45am
We don’t know all the answers yet. And I would caution against jumping to conclusions until we have all the facts

B.Obama

On the other hand, if it was a black man dealing with a white policeman, conclusions can be made immediately.

I have some conclusions that Obama may not want to admit.

39 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:02:50am

re: #35 J.S.

No, not that literature.

40 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:03:07am

I’m hoping that we will know more after the FBI combs his computer - if he’s hitting terror sympathizer and Jihad boards from home that will tell us a lot.

41 HelloDare  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:03:31am

From NPR. Follow the link at Instapundit to the NPR audio. There’s a lot more.

He gave a Grand Rounds presentation… You take turns giving a lecture on, you know, the correct treatment of schizophrenia, the right drugs to prescribe for personality disorder, you know, that sort of thing. But instead of giving an academic paper, he gave a lecture on the Koran, and they said it didn’t seem to be just an informational lecture, but it seemed to be his own beliefs. That’s what a lot of people thought.

He talked about how if you’re a nonbeliever the Koran says you should have your head cut off, you should have oil poured down your throat, you should be set on fire. And I said well couldn’t this just be his educating you? And the psychiatrist said yes, but one of the Muslims in the audience, another psychiatrist, raised his hand and was quite disturbed and he said you know, a lot of us don’t believe these things you’re saying, and that there was no place where Hasan couched it as this is what the Koran teaches but you know I don’t believe it. And people actually talked in the hallway afterwards about ‘is he one of these people that’s going to freak out and shoot people someday?’

42 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:03:34am

re: #37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Your SISTAH FROM ANOTHA MISTAH!

Down with the global patriarchy!

43 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:03:34am

G-D bless Sgt. Munley.

44 EastSider  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:03:35am

re: #35 J.S.

You mean all the psychological literature on PTSD?
/

Is there any precedent, or trend even of professional psychiatrists/psychologists (don’t know the technical difference) being overly affected by their patients?

45 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:03:41am

re: #34 theheat

Would not get rational response there either.

46 Bagua  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:04:16am

re: #32 Thanos

I think we see premeditation but not a lot of planning - the car keying incident might have been a trigger/lame excuse to a sociopath, the pro muslim stance just part of the usual sociopath resistance to authority and consensus. This to me is SJS, of the “well you if think I’m a terrorist, I’ll show you” variety…

No a garden variety sociopath, rather a mass murdering terrorist.

47 rwmofo  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:04:35am

“The hero of this incident is Sgt. Kimberly Munley, who brought the gunman’s rampage to an end by shooting him four times.”

Excellent. This reminds me of clowns who claim they don’t like cops. So what if you need one? I’ll take Sgt. Munley.

48 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:05:02am

Time to go back to work. Y’all spread some love somewhere today, okay? World really needs it right now.

49 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:05:56am

re: #23 Bagua

This is sure waking up the class of 2004 sleepers.

I’m awake!

50 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:06:10am

re: #3 Sharmuta

There’s only one word for a woman like that- HERO.

Remember Jeanne Assam.

51 rwmofo  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:06:21am

re: #36 MandyManners

I read this morning that Hasan didn’t want to be photographed with women.

Wouldn’t it be cool if someone had a picture of Sgt. Munley covering him right after she dropped him.

52 John Neverbend  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:06:51am

re: #27 Spare O’Lake

Yes it does.

I’m not so sure. It seems clear that he was a religious Muslim, and therefore may well have uttered the phrase “allahu akbar” on many more respectable occasions. If he did say it, I’d still like to know why he said it. Was it because he truly believed that he was carrying out a Jihadi-style attack, or was it simply a call to his god in a moment of crisis (a rather murderous moment, of course), or was it for some other reason. I think I’d like to know, if possible, exactly why he did what he did, before I can say whether the alleged shout is relevant.

53 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:06:52am

re: #50 Alouette

Remember Jeanne Assam.

Don’t fuck with American Women.

54 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:07:30am
55 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:07:42am

re: #23 Bagua

This is sure waking up the class of 2004 sleepers.

Yep, and they’re very cranky.

56 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:07:52am

re: #46 Bagua

No a garden variety sociopath, rather a mass murdering terrorist.

Most people don’t get this: but here I will state it again - most terrorists are sociopaths, criminals, and social misfits to start with. They don’t fit into normal society, even in the hinterlands of Pakistan. The average suicide bomber there is either mentally ill, very old, or very young and naive. You aren’t attracted to terror in a big way like this guy appears to have been if you have a normal persona.

57 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:08:07am
58 abolitionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:08:15am

re: #40 Thanos

understanding is that it was a male neighbor’s laptop which the feds confiscated - borrowed by Hasan from time to time.

59 J.S.  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:08:49am

re: #44 EastSider

I looked this up the other day, and apparently (since around 1995) there have been some scholarly research into what’s been termed “vicarious traumatization” — this would involve ambulance workers who come upon a gruesome scenes — they have not personally experienced, say, the automobile accident — but nonetheless they may be adversely affected by what they see; the same goes for medical doctors, other people (search and rescue personnel) — but, the symptoms are usually nightmares, re-living the scenes, anxiety attacks, etc., not going on shooting rampages…

60 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:08:57am

re: #41 HelloDare

I listened to that report this morning, twice. I thought NPR just plays the same segments twice during the morning broadcast here, but they reworded that report, and changed the order of things a little bit. I don’t think it changed the meaning at all, but clearly they were being very careful how they said things.

61 theheat  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:09:16am

re: #58 abolitionist

He didn’t own a laptop, or maybe he didn’t want his online habits readily accessible? Odd.

62 Gang of One  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:09:24am

re: #44 EastSider

Is there any precedent, or trend even of professional psychiatrists/psychologists (don’t know the technical difference) being overly affected by their patients?

Psychiatrists are MDs, psychologists are PhDs or MS.

63 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:09:27am

re: #58 abolitionist

understanding is that it was a male neighbor’s laptop which the feds confiscated - borrowed by Hasan from time to time.

Bummer if he didn’t have his own. That’s another sign however, how many people in the services don’t have computers? How many of his rank? I would wager very few.

64 EastSider  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:10:50am

re: #56 Thanos

Most people don’t get this: but here I will state it again - most terrorists are sociopaths, criminals, and social misfits to start with. They don’t fit into normal society, even in the hinterlands of Pakistan. The average suicide bomber there is either mentally ill, very old, or very young and naive. You aren’t attracted to terror in a big way like this guy appears to have been if you have a normal persona.

hrmm. I agree but with an exception. I would say that its possible to be indoctrinated, from a young age, into a way of thinking/acting/living that would push someone down a terrible path.

There are some people who just don’t care about other people and will go out of their way for violence, but there are also people who are groomed from a very young age and become twisted.

65 lawhawk  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:12:19am

re: #63 Thanos

That means tracking his online activities will be more difficult as he likely used libraries and/or the borrowed computer from time to time.

A borrowed laptop also makes for a convenient defense since he could claim that he didn’t visit those sites, the guy who owned the computer did, etc.

66 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:12:33am

re: #64 EastSider

If we are all born tabula rasa then the only way to arrive there is

to be indoctrinated, from a young age, into a way of thinking/acting/living that would push someone down a terrible path.
67 Political Atheist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:13:02am

Repost from downstairs, sorry if its bad form to do so but as details emerge about our hero here..

On Fort Hood-
CNN shows it was a female police officer that stopped the attack with four hits on the shooter, and got wounded herself. That’s damn fine work on her part, I’m upset she got hit. And thrilled she lives.

When I see 4 hits and a survivor I think 9mm. We’ll see. I trained with a police instructor/shooting investigator. We used to carefully track all the handgun shootings we could to develop better tactics and procedures. There has been pressure to upgrade the caliber from various sources, (see NH Bank robbery etc) and opposite pressure from those who see bullets as excessive force.
I say let the cop choose.

68 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:13:03am

re: #42 Sharmuta

Down with the global patriarchy!

Youtube Video
69 Bagua  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:13:14am

re: #56 Thanos

Most people don’t get this: but here I will state it again - most terrorists are sociopaths, criminals, and social misfits to start with. They don’t fit into normal society, even in the hinterlands of Pakistan. The average suicide bomber there is either mentally ill, very old, or very young and naive. You aren’t attracted to terror in a big way like this guy appears to have been if you have a normal persona.

No, I do get that. Yet “sociopaths, criminals, and social misfits” is a very broad peer group, yet mass-murdering terrorists is fortunately not. Mental illness and poor social skills does not explain an act of this magnitude.

70 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:13:41am

President Obama urges us not to jump to conclusions? You mean like he did (not) regarding Sgt Crowley and professor Gates? Got it.

71 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:14:14am

re: #64 EastSider

hrmm. I agree but with an exception. I would say that its possible to be indoctrinated, from a young age, into a way of thinking/acting/living that would push someone down a terrible path.

There are some people who just don’t care about other people and will go out of their way for violence, but there are also people who are groomed from a very young age and become twisted.

I agree there are people who are indoctrinated and groomed from a young age - although I have not seen any indication that Hasan was. His parents are dead; his only family seem to be aunts, uncles & cousins. And the cousin seemed, to me, to be sincere in expressing the family’s shock at this situation.

72 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:14:16am

This is going to be insane for a while in the press.

Everyone will see in it their own particular boogey men.

The far right whackos will be crowing “I told you so about” Muslims which will shortly morph into attacks on Obama for being soft on his “fellow” Muslims. There will be many crocodile tears followed by gingoistic calls for blood, culminating in Obama conspiracy lunacies. Cuing Fox, Rush, Beck and Malkin…

The far left moonbats will see this as a sign that America is getting some sort of “just” come uppance that they feel this nation “richly deserves” and try to make the shooter into some sort of anti-hero. Cuing white people with dread locks, nose piercings and Che-Guevara shirts…

The MSN will wallow and grovel in shmaltzy interviews with the bereaved, or friends of the bereaved, coupled with talking heads going on about PTSD and try to push the soldier that cracked fad. That was a popular fad back in the 80’s with all the hype around movies like Platoon and Full Metal Jacket. Then they will debate about if they went too far. Cuing CNN, NBC, etc…

Of course, to all too many, the news is all just entertainment anyway.

Of course, the reality is that there are twelve grieving families and as yet we have no real idea why the shooter did it.

Of course the 24 hour rule was starkly expressed yesterday. It was how many shooters? The shooter was dead? It tells you something about how good the news is anyway just there. If you are going to have multiple outlets report multiple shooters, well… If you don’t know, you don’t know and shouldn’t report it as fact.

There is nothing like a real outrage to get all the “faux outraged” completely wound up. There is nothing like having a media that cares about being actually factual and giving real information. Then again, it is all just entertainment to them anyway. It’s like maggots gorging on decay.

I am getting sick.

73 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:14:23am

re: #64 EastSider

hrmm. I agree but with an exception. I would say that its possible to be indoctrinated, from a young age, into a way of thinking/acting/living that would push someone down a terrible path.

There are some people who just don’t care about other people and will go out of their way for violence, but there are also people who are groomed from a very young age and become twisted.

Indoctrination is a method to create sociopathy - there’s a mediator that regulates moral decisions in your brain and indoctrination is a way to never let that mediator mature or practice moral decisions. So you are right, but… an indoctrinated individual is not a normal person is what I would say.

74 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:15:09am

re: #69 Bagua

No, I do get that. Yet “sociopaths, criminals, and social misfits” is a very broad peer group, yet mass-murdering terrorists is fortunately not. Mental illness and poor social skills does not explain an act of this magnitude.

I’m not saying it does Bagua, but I am saying that’s where the terror crowd recruits.

75 EastSider  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:15:12am

re: #66 Ojoe

If we are all born tabula rasa then the only way to arrive there is

I don’t know if its an appropriate forum for a free will vs fate and/or ad genetics vs environment discussion, but I’d say that I’m in the middle. I don’t agree with the tabula rosa idea—some people are wired screwy. That said, you could really mess a kid’s head up by putting the wrong kinds of ideas in there.

76 abolitionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:15:35am

re: #70 _RememberTonyC

Good one!

77 Mike DeGuzman  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:16:08am

re: #18 lizzel

I am not sure if that was mentioned but this article from AP
On a form filled out by those seeking spouses through a program at the mosque, Hasan listed his birthplace as Arlington, Va., but his nationality as Palestinian, Khan said.

Says that he considered himself Palestinian

I guess he won’t get his 72 virgins in paradise since he was having problems in finding a wife!

78 Political Atheist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:16:15am

re: #72 LudwigVanQuixote
Thanks for that post Ludwig

Note to news desk directors etc-
Rule 1 If it’s unconfirmed, it’s NOT YET NEWS.
Rule 2 See #1

79 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:16:32am

re: #75 EastSider

Ideas count. Hasan had the wrong ones.

80 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:16:46am

re: #69 Bagua

No, I do get that. Yet “sociopaths, criminals, and social misfits” is a very broad peer group, yet mass-murdering terrorists is fortunately not. Mental illness and poor social skills does not explain an act of this magnitude.

Sometimes it does.

81 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:17:08am

re: #78 Rightwingconspirator

Thanks for that post Ludwig

Note to news desk directors etc-
Rule 1 If it’s unconfirmed, it’s NOT YET NEWS.
Rule 2 See #1

You are welcome, and absolutely.

82 J.S.  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:17:29am

re: #69 Bagua

I believe there has been some research into the psychological (mental health) of suicide bombers, and some of the literature has indicated that they are “well adjusted” — that’s not psychotic, not “abnormal”.

83 ruswmrun  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:18:40am

Don’t get it - who are the “class of 2004 sleepers?”

re: #55 Charles

Yep, and they’re very cranky.

84 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:19:13am

re: #72 LudwigVanQuixote

Well said. (I’m not quoting to save bandwidth, but it’s green hearted)

85 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:20:25am

re: #84 Alouette

Well said. (I’m not quoting to save bandwidth, but it’s green hearted)

Giving you a virtual hug. :)

86 Bagua  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:21:03am

re: #83 ruswmrun

Don’t get it - who are the “class of 2004 sleepers?”

You are an honourary member.

87 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:21:15am

I wish I was making this up, but it’s real. From DU:

Bush is responsible for Ft Hood Massacre

It’s his useless war in Iraq that created all this heartache..

He is ultimately responsible for these crimes and should have been arrested a long time ago.

88 EastSider  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:21:26am

re: #79 Ojoe

Ideas count. Hasan had the wrong ones.

Agree. But it’s also clear there were other things at play.

89 researchok  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:21:30am

re: #74 Thanos

I’m not saying it does Bagua, but I am saying that’s where the terror crowd recruits.

Thanos, you might be interested in this. It is a kind of primer I wrote (a lifetime ago!)

90 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:21:57am

re: #83 ruswmrun

Karma: -17
Registered since: Dec 26, 2005 at 11:06 am
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 38
No. of links posted: 0

hhhmmm

91 Hawaii69  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:21:57am

re: #2 EastSider

So I was firmly in the “lets not jump to conclusions” camp yesterday. However several pieces of evidence have come out today, and many signs point to religion as a likely, if not necessarily exclusive motive.

Religion was involved, sure. Jihad? Terrorism? Not likely.

The major was said to have some personality problems.
Problems in dealing with his patients in the past.

He was also in conflict with some other soldiers over his religion. Another soldier was recently arrested for vanadalizing Hasans car, and tearing off a muslim bumber sticker. He apparently felt persecuted by others as well.

What it looks like is an unstable guy who snapped.

92 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:22:42am

re: #85 LudwigVanQuixote

Giving you a virtual hug. :)

I just took my challah out of the oven. Sending you a virtual loaf. :)

93 Gang of One  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:22:49am

re: #87 Mad Al-Jaffee

I wish I was making this up, but it’s real. From DU:

Bush is responsible for Ft Hood Massacre

It’s his useless war in Iraq that created all this heartache..

He is ultimately responsible for these crimes and should have been arrested a long time ago.

Why drive your BP up like that, Mad? Those DUers are just not intelligent.

94 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:23:37am

re: #88 EastSider

True, many things come together to produce a person & his actions.

That said, it is time, IMHO, for a certain religion to find its reformer.

95 HelloDare  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:24:17am

re: #60 wrenchwench

I listened to that report this morning, twice. I thought NPR just plays the same segments twice during the morning broadcast here, but they reworded that report, and changed the order of things a little bit. I don’t think it changed the meaning at all, but clearly they were being very careful how they said things.

That NPR audio is really interesting.

Last night on MSNBC there was lots of speculation about Hasan suffering PTSD, although they cited no evidence that Hasan suffered any trauma other than talking to sufferers of PTSD.

The guy on NPR recording mentioned Pre Traumatic Stress Disorder. First time I’ve ever heard of that. Maybe he just made it up.

96 J.S.  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:24:26am

OT
Orlando shooter has been arrested.

97 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:24:29am

re: #91 Hawaii69

Religion was involved, sure. Jihad? Terrorism? Not likely

Too early to tell either way

98 Hawaii69  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:24:45am

re: #32 Thanos

I think we see premeditation but not a lot of planning - the car keying incident might have been a trigger/lame excuse to a sociopath, the pro muslim stance just part of the usual sociopath resistance to authority and consensus. This to me is SJS, of the “well you if think I’m a terrorist, I’ll show you” variety…

He was born a Muslim. That could explain the pro muslim stance as well…

99 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:24:58am

re: #93 Gang of One

Why drive your BP up like that, Mad? Those DUers are just not intelligent.

It’s like the proverbial car accident you can’t look away from. It’s a fascinating place to lurk. The discussions are so insane they can be entertaining. And it’s a good barometer for the far left.

100 Ericus58  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:25:30am

re: #70 _RememberTonyC

I’d ding that up if I could ;)

101 BethesdaDog  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:25:51am

Earlier articles said he was from Silver Spring, Maryland. He went to school at the Uniformed Services medical school in Bethesda, Maryland. I can’t find him listed among licensed physicians in Maryland, though. I wonder where he got his license.

102 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:26:17am

The other thought to go with the first is that since it is all just entertainment for the pundits - they have to sell their product after all - well actually they are selling the product, so that you can watch advertisements with rabbits singing about toilet paper, yogurt, weight loss and the next big game, is one thought to go with.

Yes, get the widow on the set - it will sell more toilet paper!

The other thought, is the common fool who cares to philosophize about it in order to push his or her own little view…

Yes, use the widow on the set as a reason to “look at me!”

Again, I am feeling sick.

103 Gang of One  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:26:19am

re: #99 Mad Al-Jaffee

It’s like the proverbial car accident you can’t look away from. It’s a fascinating place to lurk. The discussions are so insane they can be entertaining. And it’s a good barometer for the far left.

Can’t argue with that, Mad. Just don’t lurk too long, m’kay?

104 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:27:03am

re: #92 Alouette

I just took my challah out of the oven. Sending you a virtual loaf. :)

Now that is why I need Shabbos. With the mood I am in, I really do need the reminder of good things.

105 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:27:09am

SJS is terrorism.

SJS is jihad.

It is the result of the same incitement, whether done to a group in a mosque, rally or the individual on the internet.

106 lostlakehiker  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:27:45am

re: #72 LudwigVanQuixote

(snip)
Of course, the reality is that there are twelve grieving families and as yet we have no real idea why the shooter did it.


Well, one clue is that he shouted Allah Akhbar. Another is that he posted on a blog to the effect that if you could catch American soldiers unaware and kill 100 of them for the loss of just one, that would be a ‘strategic victory’.

He chose his side, having falsely and treacherously sworn allegiance to the other side, ours. He then bided his time and prepared and then took his best shot, killing not 100, but a dozen or so. This doesn’t answer the root cause question of why it ever happens that someone chooses to serve the cause of evil. But it does answer the immediate question of “why he did it”. He did it to help his side win the war.

Now, to be very clear here, the other side is not “Islam”. If it were, it would be impossible to explain the sizable Muslim contingent in our own armed forces who do serve loyally, in some cases giving their lives in the course of doing the duty they volunteered to take up. The other side is that hyperbelligerent, deranged branch of Islam that holds that anyone anywhere, Muslim or not, is fair game, with the sole exception of members of the inner circle of the pure.

107 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:28:01am

re: #102 LudwigVanQuixote

The other thought to go with the first is that since it is all just entertainment for the pundits - they have to sell their product after all - well actually they are selling the product, so that you can watch advertisements with rabbits singing about toilet paper, yogurt, weight loss and the next big game, is one thought to go with.

Yes, get the widow on the set - it will sell more toilet paper!

The other thought, is the common fool who cares to philosophize about it in order to push his or her own little view…

Yes, use the widow on the set as a reason to “look at me!”

Again, I am feeling sick.

There’s a commercial with rabbits singing about toilet paper?! I need to start watching more tv.

108 J.S.  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:28:31am

re: #101 BethesdaDog

In Virginia. He graduated with a biochemistry major from Virgina Tech. Then through the military went on to become a doctor, then specialized in psychiatry. Worked 6 years at Walter Reed…

109 EastSider  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:28:37am

re: #91 Hawaii69

Religion was involved, sure. Jihad? Terrorism? Not likely.

The major was said to have some personality problems.
Problems in dealing with his patients in the past.

He was also in conflict with some other soldiers over his religion. Another soldier was recently arrested for vanadalizing Hasans car, and tearing off a muslim bumber sticker. He apparently felt persecuted by others as well.

What it looks like is an unstable guy who snapped.

Religion: check.

Jihad/Terrorism: will depend on the observers definition of each. Those are huge, broad terms that mean vastly different things to vastly different people.

Was this Jihad b/c he was screaming Alahu Akbar?
Was this NOT Jihad b/c he [speculation] didn’t have ties to a larger network?

Was this terrorism because he killed 13 innocent?
Was this NOT terrorism because he [speculation] acted on an emotional, personal motive vs a larger, nationalistic motive?

Beauty isn’t the only thing in the eye of the beholder.

110 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:28:49am

re: #100 Ericus58

I’d ding that up if I could ;)

back atcha :)

111 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:29:40am

re: #109 EastSider

Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

112 EastSider  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:29:55am

re: #111 Ben Hur

Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

+1

113 Mike DeGuzman  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:30:18am

re: #101 BethesdaDog

Earlier articles said he was from Silver Spring, Maryland. He went to school at the Uniformed Services medical school in Bethesda, Maryland. I can’t find him listed among licensed physicians in Maryland, though. I wonder where he got his license.

Maybe you should try Washington, DC since he completed his residency at Walter Reed Army Medical Center and was at WRAMC for 6 years before he was recently reassigned to Ft Hood.

114 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:30:21am

re: #107 Mad Al-Jaffee

There’s a commercial with rabbits singing about toilet paper?! I need to start watching more tv.

It’s actually a Rod Serling reference. He said:

“It is very difficult to produce thought provoking, artistic and meaningful programming when every fifteen minutes the show is interrupted by rabbits singing about toilet paper.”

115 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:31:05am

Four good hits on the bad guy, while wounded, in the middle of chaos. Awesome job, Sgt. Munley.

All tragedy aside, it’s lovely to see Big Bad Jihad taken out by a “mere” woman. HA! Another middle finger to the Islamists - one small bright spot in this dark situation.

116 kilroy  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:31:09am

Seattle’s dealing with the second trial of Naveed Haq. The difference was he confronted unarmed women at a Jewish Federation center and was only able to kill one. How many trials will Hasan have and will Obama treat him like Bush did McVeigh.

117 Gang of One  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:31:49am

re: #114 LudwigVanQuixote

It’s actually a Rod Serling reference. He said:

“It is very difficult to produce thought provoking, artistic and meaningful programming when every fifteen minutes the show is interrupted by rabbits singing about toilet paper.”

I thought it was bears singing about toilet when not using rabbits as toilet paper.
Huh.

118 HelloDare  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:32:37am

re: #97 sattv4u2

Religion was involved, sure. Jihad? Terrorism? Not likely

Too early to tell either way

Terrorism: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

His acts, viewed in the context of his past statements about Islam and American foreign policy, could be viewed as terrorism. Or not.

119 J.S.  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:34:00am

re: #113 Mike DeGuzman

License here.

120 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:34:09am

I’d really like someone to provide a list of the conclusions I’m not supposed to jump to. And does this list of conclusions extend to just plain thoughts or visceral reactions? Is there going to be a lifting of this Conclusion Jumping Alert? Am I allowed to begin an analysis without concluding it? Are there prohibited trains of thoughts that might lead to these forbidden conclusions?
How about questions—are there questions we’re not supposed to ask that might lead to the wrong conclusions?

Is there going to be a point where we can say—Hey, I think that was a terrorist act, spontaneous, but still a terrorist act.

Must…stop…that… conclusion…from…forming…


///

121 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:35:06am

re: #106 lostlakehiker

Well, one clue is that he shouted Allah Akhbar. Another is that he posted on a blog to the effect that if you could catch American soldiers unaware and kill 100 of them for the loss of just one, that would be a ‘strategic victory’.

Neither of these claims is confirmed yet.

122 Cheeseland  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:35:32am

re: #101 BethesdaDog

In the armed services, I believe a physician can be licensed in any state. While in active duty they do not need to be licensed in the st ate that they work in. Often they will be licensed in the state that they did their residence or in a state where the paperwork is simple, and the licensure fees are low.

In practice out of the military they need to have a license in the state in which they practice.

123 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:35:44am

re: #120 Bob Levin

I’d really like someone to provide a list of the conclusions I’m not supposed to jump to. And does this list of conclusions extend to just plain thoughts or visceral reactions? Is there going to be a lifting of this Conclusion Jumping Alert? Am I allowed to begin an analysis without concluding it? Are there prohibited trains of thoughts that might lead to these forbidden conclusions?
How about questions—are there questions we’re not supposed to ask that might lead to the wrong conclusions?

Is there going to be a point where we can say—Hey, I think that was a terrorist act, spontaneous, but still a terrorist act.

Must…stop…that… conclusion…from…forming…


///


You can use this list after you finish your TPS report.

thinkgeek.com

124 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:36:54am

re: #106 lostlakehiker

re: #105 Ben Hur

If that was truly his motive. Sure. We actually don’t know yet. Yes there are reports that someone was posting crap on the net. There is no evidence I know of, that it was him. So far the evidence presented makes it look like he acted alone.

In any case, it clearly - now at least - looks like he cracked. Honestly there should be a 48 hour rule for this.

If he acted alone, in some sense so what about the jihadi part?
If he was a jihadi, he was a jihadi. If he did it because he thought there were alien probes in his head, so what? If it were a group thing then that is a different case, that gives you a group to hunt. If it is a lone shooter who cracked, and you have the shooter in custody, then there is no larger threat to go nuts about.

I am not trying to diminish the problem of jihadis. I hate them as much as I hate Nazis, Klansmen and Stalinists. However, you can only fight them as a group. In a free society, their literature is out there, and a psycho who is infected with it, will only find something else to go psycho with if you take a particular odious literature away.

125 nanook37  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:37:01am

re: #29 Ojoe

Something is wrong with the “literature” that would inspire this.

I think it is more a problem of interpretation of the literature by someone whose mind is, well FUBAR…

126 Spider Mensch  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:37:25am

<
re: #117 Gang of One

I thought it was bears singing about toilet when not using rabbits as toilet paper.
Huh.


do you have a problem with fur sticking to your ass when you wipe it? the rabbit asks the bear..the bear picks up the rabbit, wipes his ass with him..then says..” No..not really”

/in case anyone doesn’t know that joke…just maybe we all need a chuckle after a bad couple of days…

127 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:37:49am

re: #117 Gang of One

I thought it was bears singing about toilet when not using rabbits as toilet paper.
Huh.

You may be right… I didn’t google the quote. Call it a paraphrase then. I was certainly thinking of Serling when I wrote it.

128 Randall Gross  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:38:05am

re: #82 J.S.

I believe there has been some research into the psychological (mental health) of suicide bombers, and some of the literature has indicated that they are “well adjusted” — that’s not psychotic, not “abnormal”.

Link?

129 EastSider  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:39:11am

re: #121 Charles

Neither of these claims is confirmed yet.

The suspension of conclusions I think is an important point. For 24-48-72 hours, while the facts are being gathered, it helps to maintain an open mind. As stated, yesterday I was firmly “shut up and respect the dead,” today I’m picking up facts that say the Major was deeply religious but with psychological problems.

Stopping a day or two to understand the facts aren’t going to change any of the following problems:

-Gun abuse
-Religious extremism
-Personal psychological issues

Being “pc” as someone derisively said yesterday is not, in fact, going to “get people killed.” Waiting a day to get the facts though has the potential to avoid emotion based retaliatory attacks.

130 kilroy  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:39:17am

re: #121 Charles

I wonder what standard will be required to confirm these claims. A preponderance of the evidence or beyond a reasonable doubt?

131 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:39:25am

re: #124 LudwigVanQuixote

I already heard a conservative on on talk radio yesterday refer to the shooter as being “obviously part of a sleeper cell.” The things you say, they are happening.

132 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:39:27am

re: #118 HelloDare

Terrorism: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

His acts, viewed in the context of his past statements about Islam and American foreign policy, could be viewed as terrorism. Or not.

Could be. Thats why I (still) cautioned that it’s tto early to tell

What if we find out that in the last week or so he had a huge fight with his wife resulting in her leaving, or an investment of his that he thought would be his nest egg went sour, or any other of a myriad of “reasons”
I have freinds who are Mulsim, Catholic, Jewish, Agnostic, Mormon etc etc etc and God forbid is any of them went off like that I would think it would not be for religious reasons, but rather that they snapped form life’s little “treasures”

133 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:40:16am

re: #106 lostlakehiker


Now, to be very clear here, the other side is not “Islam”. If it were, it would be impossible to explain the sizable Muslim contingent in our own armed forces who do serve loyally, in some cases giving their lives in the course of doing the duty they volunteered to take up. The other side is that hyperbelligerent, deranged branch of Islam that holds that anyone anywhere, Muslim or not, is fair game, with the sole exception of members of the inner circle of the pure.

And its cowardly mainstream Muslim enablers.

134 researchok  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:40:18am

re: #114 LudwigVanQuixote

It’s actually a Rod Serling reference. He said:

“It is very difficult to produce thought provoking, artistic and meaningful programming when every fifteen minutes the show is interrupted by rabbits singing about toilet paper.”

Those rabbits sold a lot of toilet paper.

135 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:41:01am

re: #130 kilroy

I wonder what standard will be required to confirm these claims. A preponderance of the evidence or beyond a reasonable doubt?

Preponderance of evidence is for civil trials. We’re talking about a shooting rampage, so I would imagine beyond a reasonable doubt.

136 S'latch  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:41:09am

I hope that one day the investigators are able to figure out what motivated Major Malik Nadal Hasan to murder all those people.

137 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:41:17am

re: #134 researchok

Those rabbits sold a lot of toilet paper.

Somehow I think people would buy it anyway.. but that’s just me I guess…

138 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:42:20am

re: #131 WindUpBird

I already heard a conservative on on talk radio yesterday refer to the shooter as being “obviously part of a sleeper cell.” The things you say, they are happening.

Well is it really too hard a prediction to make. We live in a shallow culture, where narcissism is more important than fact. What else would one expect?

139 Ericus58  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:42:53am

re: #106 lostlakehiker

Very well put. Having served and retired from service to our country, his choice to be treacherous in his allegiance just hits me to the core. He broke the sacred trust to his Brothers/Sisters-in-Arms.

Non sibi sed patriae

140 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:42:54am

re: #135 WindUpBird

Preponderance of evidence is for civil trials. We’re talking about a shooting rampage, so I would imagine beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is likely there are many witnesses.

141 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:43:20am

re: #138 LudwigVanQuixote

No journalists anymore, and a million editorialists, yeah.

142 Cheeseland  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:43:37am

re: #119 J.S.

re: #119 J.S.

License here.

Interesting to note that he was really just out school. He finished his residency in 2007, and his Fellowship was completed in July of this year. He was treating patients under supervision until now.

Year Residency Completed: 2007
Disaster and Preventive Psychiatry
USUHS/WRAMC
Bethesda, MD USA
Year Fellowship Completed: 2009

143 researchok  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:43:40am

re: #137 LudwigVanQuixote

Somehow I think people would buy it anyway.. but that’s just me I guess…

Maybe…but they went for the ‘new and improved’ TP.

Of course, who want the better life the ‘new and improved ‘TP promised?

144 Kragar  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:43:49am

re: #140 LudwigVanQuixote

It is likely there are many witnesses.

It will be a court martial, so look to the UCMJ for the trial rules.

145 Spider Mensch  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:44:36am

I posted this on the previous thread also..the Orlando shooter has been apprehended according to this.. cnn.com

146 Gang of One  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:44:40am

re: #144 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It will be a court martial, so look to the UCMJ for the trial rules.

Does the UCMJ have a death penalty?

147 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:45:02am

re: #124 LudwigVanQuixote

A psychopath will find something by which to justify their insanity, whether it’s Hasan, Chapman, or Roeder and it shouldn’t reflect on other Christians, other Muslims, or Salinger fans.

148 J.S.  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:45:06am

re: #128 Thanos

there are a gazillion studies out there saying basically that terrorists are not deranged. Here’s one such review (pdf format) of the literature from a psychologist…(this is circa 2002). I’ve read other analyses (from Israel — the researchers concluded that the builk of the terrorists were actually middle class, well educated, upwardly mobile, etc. This was during the Second Intifada, etc.)

149 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:45:52am

re: #124 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #105 Ben Hur

If that was truly his motive. Sure. We actually don’t know yet. Yes there are reports that someone was posting crap on the net. There is no evidence I know of, that it was him. So far the evidence presented makes it look like he acted alone.

In any case, it clearly - now at least - looks like he cracked. Honestly there should be a 48 hour rule for this.

If he acted alone, in some sense so what about the jihadi part?
If he was a jihadi, he was a jihadi. If he did it because he thought there were alien probes in his head, so what? If it were a group thing then that is a different case, that gives you a group to hunt. If it is a lone shooter who cracked, and you have the shooter in custody, then there is no larger threat to go nuts about.

I am not trying to diminish the problem of jihadis. I hate them as much as I hate Nazis, Klansmen and Stalinists. However, you can only fight them as a group. In a free society, their literature is out there, and a psycho who is infected with it, will only find something else to go psycho with if you take a particular odious literature away.

Again, lone wolf terrorists are infected by the same incitement coming out of the mosques (not all, relax), Arab/Muslim press, etc etc as any group.

What do you think they are hearing on a DAILY basis?

I’m 1000% sure that if this was a lone wolf nut job KKKer, this theorizing wouldn’t be happening.

We are not in league with the Vlaams Blaags supporters if we call this ISLAMIC TERRORISM.

Maybe if it happened as much here as it does in the rest of the world, the luxury of philosophizing about wouldn’t bother me as much.

This society is neophyte is this shit.

150 kilroy  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:47:02am

re: #135 WindUpBird

I was referring to what standard applies before we believe facts that are presented,not a standard to convict. In our PC world it seems we should believe very little.

151 lawhawk  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:47:26am

re: #146 Gang of One

It does. The penalty for murder under the UCMJ is either life confinement or death, as determined by the court martial.

Any person subject to this chapter whom without justification or excuse, unlawfully kills a human being, when he- -
(1) has a premeditated design to kill;
(2) intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm;
(3) is engaged in an act which is inherently dangerous to others and evinces a wanton disregard of human life; or
(4) is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of burglary, sodomy, rape, robbery, or aggravated arson;
is guilty of murder, and shall suffer such punishment as a court-martial may direct, except that if found guilty under clause (1) or (4), he shall suffer death or imprisonment for life as a court-martial may direct.

Since there’s an appearance of premeditation here, the court martial could see its way to find death penalty warranted.

152 S'latch  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:47:42am

re: #149 Ben Hur

“This society is neophyte is this shit.”

Well said.

153 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:47:48am
154 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:48:52am

re: #153 MandyManners

I’m outta’ here, Lizards. Hug your kids if you have them. If you don’t, GO MAKE ONE!

IN BED!

155 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:48:57am

re: #153 MandyManners

I’m outta’ here, Lizards. Hug your kids if you have them. If you don’t, GO MAKE ONE!

MARRY MEEE!!!

156 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:48:58am

With this sh*t, is what I meant.

157 Gang of One  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:49:08am

re: #151 lawhawk

Thanks, I suspected as much.

158 Mark Pennington  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:49:45am

Wingnuts using the story to justify their Hundred Years War is just as disgusting as defending the shooter as a victim. I was stuck having to listen to two co-workers bickering this morning with these two extreme view points.

Reading through the comments on abcnews.com made me sick to my stomach…I think I’ll stick to reading LGF for some sanity.

159 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:49:59am

re: #152 Lawrence Schmerel

“This society is neophyte is this shit.”

Well said.

Was typing way too fast.

160 Kragar  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:50:36am

re: #146 Gang of One

Does the UCMJ have a death penalty?

Yes.

161 researchok  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:50:37am

re: #148 J.S.

there are a gazillion studies out there saying basically that terrorists are not deranged. Here’s one such review (pdf format) of the literature from a psychologist…(this is circa 2002). I’ve read other analyses (from Israel — the researchers concluded that the builk of the terrorists were actually middle class, well educated, upwardly mobile, etc. This was during the Second Intifada, etc.)

Terrorists are not necessarily deranged, to be sure. That said, the vast majority of them are.

Being middle class and upwardly mobile is also the description of our own middle class terror groups- ELF, elements of PETA, etc. That only underscores that educated middle class kids can be indoctrinated by skillful manipulators.

See this on how groups are indoctrinated

162 S'latch  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:50:41am

re: #159 Ben Hur

Don’t stop now.

163 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:50:45am

re: #158 beekiller

Wingnuts using the story to justify their Hundred Years War is just as disgusting as defending the shooter as a victim. I was stuck having to listen to two co-workers bickering this morning with these two extreme view points.

Reading through the comments on abcnews.com made me sick to my stomach…I think I’ll stick to reading LGF for some sanity.

Wait until the wingnuts bring health care into it.

(remember what I say, because it’s going to happen)

164 Gang of One  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:50:48am

re: #158 beekiller

Wingnuts using the story to justify their Hundred Years War is just as disgusting as defending the shooter as a victim. I was stuck having to listen to two co-workers bickering this morning with these two extreme view points.

Reading through the comments on abcnews.com made me sick to my stomach…I think I’ll stick to reading LGF for some sanity.

Were the comments leaning both ways to extremities?

165 Cheeseland  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:51:00am

re: #146 Gang of One

Does the UCMJ have a death penalty?

yes.

166 Bagua  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:51:01am

re: #132 sattv4u2

Could be. Thats why I (still) cautioned that it’s tto early to tell

What if we find out that in the last week or so he had a huge fight with his wife resulting in her leaving, or an investment of his that he thought would be his nest egg went sour, or any other of a myriad of “reasons”
I have freinds who are Mulsim, Catholic, Jewish, Agnostic, Mormon etc etc etc and God forbid is any of them went off like that I would think it would not be for religious reasons, but rather that they snapped form life’s little “treasures”

Murdering 13 people and shooting 30 including a police officer goes well beyond any sort of snapping from life’s little setbacks.

167 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:51:55am

re: #150 kilroy

I was referring to what standard applies before we believe facts that are presented,not a standard to convict. In our PC world it seems we should believe very little.


Fair enough. I guess we’re talking about cable news, which accepts zero burden of proof and often just makes stuff up or goes with the most inflammatory choice. That’s the tricky thing about news, even at its best, it moves too fast for proof. Especially when it comes to ascribing psychological motives to a murderer. The picture won’t be known for days or weeks.

So I guess I just don’t know?

168 Gus  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:52:21am

Three cheers for Sgt. Kimberly Munley!

169 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:52:42am

re: #143 researchok

Maybe…but they went for the ‘new and improved’ TP.

Of course, who want the better life the ‘new and improved ‘TP promised?

Just a thought on this:

Our society has gotten super weak. Will asses scrape off if we don’t have pre-lotioned super mega ultra soft toilet paper?

Our parents were twice as tough as us. Their parents twice as tough as them. If you go back more than that you get back to the age of:

Son: Pa, I’m sorry I’m plowing the field so slowly.

Pa: Son, stop goofing around, make a splint for that broken arm and get back to plowing. We have to get the field sewn before sundown.

Son: Yes Pa…

Today though… Well, please… If I don’t have ultra lotioned aloe vera toilet paper my ass will fall off, and then I will have to join a support group for the assless. I’ll go on Oprah and cry about how it hurt when I scraped off my ass. Then I can right an inspirational book for other ass loss “survivors.”

Somehow when I think of this culture, I think of Wall-E and the whole cupcake in a cup that you can drink with a straw so you don’t need to get up thing.

170 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:53:37am

re: #160 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yes.

So does Texas.

171 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:53:40am

re: #166 Bagua

Murdering 13 people and shooting 30 including a police officer goes well beyond any sort of snapping from life’s little setbacks.

Not really. Lets not forget that we have actually had a killer use the “Twinkie Defense” (he killed because of the junk food he was eating)

The expression derives from the 1979 trial of Dan White, a former San Francisco, California (U.S.) Supervisor who assassinated Mayor George Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk, on November 27, 1978. At the trial, noted psychiatrist Martin Blinder testified that White had been depressed at the time of the crime, and pointed to several factors indicating White’s depression: he had quit his job; he shunned his wife; and although normally clean-cut, he had become slovenly in appearance. Furthermore, White had previously been a fitness fanatic and health food advocate, but had begun consuming junk food and sugar-laden soft drinks like Coca-Cola

172 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:53:48am

re: #158 beekiller

Wingnuts using the story to justify their Hundred Years War is just as disgusting as defending the shooter as a victim. I was stuck having to listen to two co-workers bickering this morning with these two extreme view points.

Reading through the comments on abcnews.com made me sick to my stomach…I think I’ll stick to reading LGF for some sanity.

Your workplace sounds much more exciting than mine. My coworkers were like this:

“Whoa. dude shot a bunch of dudes at a base? That’s messed up.”

173 celticdragon  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:54:02am

I just listened to the bit at NPR.

Wow. His colleagues were actually wondering aloud if he would become a shooter. Jesus.

174 Gang of One  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:54:21am

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

You are on a roll today, Wiggy. I’m outahere soon. Have a peaceful and pleasant Shabbos.

175 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:54:41am

re: #174 Gang of One

You are on a roll today, Wiggy. I’m outahere soon. Have a peaceful and pleasant Shabbos.

You too my friend!

176 Mark Pennington  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:54:49am

re: #164 Gang of One

Were the comments leaning both ways to extremities?

Indeed.

177 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:55:22am

PIMF

Just a thought on this:

Our society has gotten super weak. Will asses scrape off if we don’t have pre-lotioned super mega ultra soft toilet paper?

Our parents were twice as tough as us. Their parents twice as tough as them. If you go back more than that you get back to the age of:

Son: Pa, I’m sorry I’m plowing the field so slowly.

Pa: Son, stop goofing around, make a splint for that broken arm and get back to plowing. We have to get the field sewn before sundown.

Son: Yes Pa…

Today though… Well, please… If I don’t have ultra lotioned aloe vera toilet paper my ass will fall off, and then I will have to join a support group for the assless. I’ll go on Oprah and cry about how it hurt when I scraped off my ass. Then I can write an inspirational book for other ass loss “survivors.”

Somehow when I think of this culture, I think of Wall-E and the whole cupcake in a cup that you can drink with a straw so you don’t need to get up thing.

178 Cheeseland  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:55:33am

818. ART. 18. JURISDICTION OF GENERAL COURTS-MARTIAL

Subject to section 817 of this title (article 17), general courts-martial have jurisdiction to try persons subject to this chapter for any offense made punishable by this chapter and may, under such limitations as the President may prescribe, adjudge any punishment not forbidden by this chapter, including the penalty of death when specifically authorized by this chapter. General courts-martial also have jurisdiction to try any person who by the law of war is subject to trial by a military tribunal and may adjudge any punishment permitted by the law of war. However, a general court-martial of the kind specified in section 816(1)(B) of this title (article 16(1)(B)) shall not have jurisdiction to try any person for any offense for which the death penalty may be adjudged unless the case has been previously referred to trial as noncapital case.

UCMJ

179 celticdragon  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:55:47am

re: #153 MandyManners

I’m outta’ here, Lizards. Hug your kids if you have them. If you don’t, GO MAKE ONE!

;)

180 Kragar  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:55:57am

The UCMJ

I would expect a General Court Martial for this case.

181 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:56:01am

Afternoon all. Like many of us, I too was here yesterday afternoon when the first reports came in. Over the next few hours, it became clear that there is a group who should be deeply committed to lessons learned: the media.

There were multiple shooters - first two, then three.
There were simultaneous attacks - the theater, the processing center, etc.
The gunman was dead.
Two gunmen were dead, the police had cornered the third.
Ad infinitum.

It was all bogus. It was all a feeding frenzy, grabbing whatever rumor came in and hitting the air. It fed panic, disorientation, and led to erroneous conclusions by reasonable people relying on the accuracy of the reporting.

It was not a good day for the media - local, regional, or national.

Just once - just once - I’d like to see an anchor on-air say something like:

“There has been a report of a shooting at (blank). It is my judgment that we are not getting reliable information at this point, which is perfectly understandable. This broadcast will not report on this story until we are able to sort valid facts from speculation and rumor. In other news…”

I know, of course that won’t happen, because the competition will still be running with the “breaking news” - and by the time awards season comes around, everyone will have forgotten the original crap spewed by these people.

182 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:56:41am

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

I think we’re slowly heading towards Gibson’s version of the future: high tech low life. Everyone connected, everyone’s obsessed with technology, and everyone’s working multiple menial jobs and scrambling to make a buck on the side in the new Internet merchantile economy. Like a virtual version of the bazaar at Fez, Morocco.

183 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:56:53am

re: #166 Bagua

Murdering 13 people and shooting 30 including a police officer goes well beyond any sort of snapping from life’s little setbacks.

John Lennon is dead because some weirdo read Catcher in the Rye.

Some people are just messed up in the head. They use whatever they can around them to justify what they’re thinking whether it’s a religious text, or a sekrit backwards message in their music, to whatever.

Maybe he’s a jihadi, maybe he’s psycho, maybe both. I’m sure we’ll find out as time goes on, but to think “life’s little setbacks” can’t cause some people to do this sort of thing just isn’t true. The only prerequisite is a previously unstable mind.

184 Stanley Sea  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:57:02am

I followed the protest of the Iranian elections pretty closely and noticed that every night from the roof tops people yelled Allah Akbar as a kind of solidarity call. I’m pretty naive to the SJS possibilities, so in that being my only exposure to the use of Allah Akbar, I’m confused how this (if confirmed) is viewed as necessarily jihad-ish…?

185 researchok  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:57:44am

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

Well said.

As a society, it seems we have mastered technology that our parents and grandparents only dreamed of and yet we are failing at raising children and having healthy children.

There’s a lot to be said about ‘less is more’.

186 Mike DeGuzman  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:58:48am

I can’t believe this now they’re saying Maj Hasan is suffering from “Compassion Fatigue.”

foxnews.com

187 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:59:14am

re: #166 Bagua

Murdering 13 people and shooting 30 including a police officer goes well beyond any sort of snapping from life’s little setbacks.

May not have been one setback, but many. It’s not inconceivable that he was already on the precipice of breaking and it just took one more thing.

I am not discarding the possibility that this was premeditated terrorism, though!

188 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:59:36am

re: #182 WindUpBird

I think we’re slowly heading towards Gibson’s version of the future: high tech low life. Everyone connected, everyone’s obsessed with technology, and everyone’s working multiple menial jobs and scrambling to make a buck on the side in the new Internet merchantile economy. Like a virtual version of the bazaar at Fez, Morocco.

Might I interest you, sir, in some fine jewelry? Come, these shops only have junk for the tourists. Because I see that you have an eye for quality and because I love you like a brother, let me show you these rare pieces. A gentleman of your quality and connoisseurship can appreciate at once the excellent bargain I am offering to you, my friend, but I must ask that you not tell the others, for prices such as this would ruin me if I offered them to everyone.

189 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:59:59am

Well, if we’re supposed to feel bad for poor little Mr. Shooter who was harassed at work, and so forth, as some people in the noise-o-verse suggest… I can’t help but think what a crappy wake-up he’s going to have if he makes it out of unconsciousness.

Instead of the Gardens of Paradise with ever-flowing rivers of booze and roving packs of willing virgins, he’s going to wake up in a hospital bed in Fuckall, Texas. The first guy he sees is not going to be Mohammed, but his military lawyer. Poor baby.

190 Cheeseland  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:00:37pm

re: #183 Sharmuta

John Lennon is dead because some weirdo read Catcher in the Rye.

Some people are just messed up in the head. They use whatever they can around them to justify what they’re thinking whether it’s a religious text, or a sekrit backwards message in their music, to whatever.

Maybe he’s a jihadi, maybe he’s psycho, maybe both. I’m sure we’ll find out as time goes on, but to think “life’s little setbacks” can’t cause some people to do this sort of thing just isn’t true. The only prerequisite is a previously unstable mind.

This is a guy who spent the last six years of his life in daily close contact with mental health professionals. Either he was very good at keeping secrets, or they failed despite countless encounters to see that he had a problem.

191 solomonpanting  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:00:53pm

re: #7 John Neverbend

If you accept the hypothesis that the major was psychotic, does it really make any difference whether or not he shouted “Allahu Akbar”?

Ah heck. Even CNN’s Anderson Cooper described the shooter as wearing “traditional garb.” I wonder what tradition he was upholding?

192 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:01:00pm

re: #185 researchok

Well said.

As a society, it seems we have mastered technology that our parents and grandparents only dreamed of and yet we are failing at raising children and having healthy children.

There’s a lot to be said about ‘less is more’.

Then again, our grandparents had OTC access to drugs that we now know are highly addictive and dangerous. Each generation has its own opiates. Whatever our problems in 2009, I prefer them to the problems of the world our grandparents inhabited.

193 Gang of One  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:01:24pm

re: #186 Mike DeGuzman

I can’t believe this now they’re saying Maj Hasan is suffering from “Compassion Fatigue.”

[Link: www.foxnews.com…]

Is that what kids are calling it today?

194 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:01:30pm

This topic is too nuanced and too full of mixed motives to fit into our sound-byte, bludgeoning-with-slogans media. it will soon be reduced to the Palestinian nationality and “Allahu Akhbar” part while the the rest is be blithely ignored, and then the real tragedy will occur: we will learn nothing from this, we will only become more fixed in our preconceived notions.

195 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:01:31pm

re: #186 Mike DeGuzman

I can’t believe this now they’re saying Maj Hasan is suffering from “Compassion Fatigue.”

[Link: www.foxnews.com…]

Give me a break.

They’re “hardly surprised?”

This must be going on all over the country and we didn’t know about it.

Strangely, it’s not happening anywhere else.

196 Soundboard Fez  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:01:52pm

re: #186 Mike DeGuzman

Compassion fatigue is very real, and he would be a prime candidate to get it. There’s hardly a psychiatrist out there who doesn’t have his own shrink.

But it’s never been linked to someone going postal like this, and it’s probably only barely more relevant than pointing out he had 10 fingers.

197 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:02:00pm

re: #190 Cheeseland

This is a guy who spent the last six years of his life in daily close contact with mental health professionals. Either he was very good at keeping secrets, or they failed despite countless encounters to see that he had a problem.

I thought I read yesterday he had received counseling for work related stress.

198 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:02:14pm

re: #190 Cheeseland

This is a guy who spent the last six years of his life in daily close contact with mental health professionals. Either he was very good at keeping secrets, or they failed despite countless encounters to see that he had a problem.

If he wasn’t in therapy…

Mental health isn’t like smelling BO. Serial killers and sociopaths can keep themselves together in public. Ted Bundy, anyone?

199 bosforus  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:02:43pm

re: #186 Mike DeGuzman

I can’t believe this now they’re saying Maj Hasan is suffering from “Compassion Fatigue.”

[Link: www.foxnews.com…]

Everyone needs a state issued compassion partner. It would solve all these problems.
/

200 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:02:46pm

re: #196 Soundboard Fez

To be clear, I was commenting on it making someone going postal, not the existence of the condition.

201 Ericus58  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:03:14pm

re: #186 Mike DeGuzman

Hell of a way of showing his “compassion”… what’s his defense going to be; “I thought this was the best way for these people not to suffer the stress of war before they might”?!

202 Four More Tears  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:03:14pm

re: #198 WindUpBird

If he wasn’t in therapy…

Mental health isn’t like smelling BO. Serial killers and sociopaths can keep themselves together in public. Ted Bundy, anyone?

Which reminds me… Dexter has been excellent this season.

203 albusteve  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:04:37pm

re: #183 Sharmuta

John Lennon is dead because some weirdo read Catcher in the Rye.

Some people are just messed up in the head. They use whatever they can around them to justify what they’re thinking whether it’s a religious text, or a sekrit backwards message in their music, to whatever.

Maybe he’s a jihadi, maybe he’s psycho, maybe both. I’m sure we’ll find out as time goes on, but to think “life’s little setbacks” can’t cause some people to do this sort of thing just isn’t true. The only prerequisite is a previously unstable mind.

as for motive…they can ask him when he wakes up…I don’t see where it’s that important really, unless you want to write a thesis or book…you can’t stop someone who wants to murder…his motive is probably some sort of religious/ideological revenge…but then, so what?

204 lawhawk  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:04:53pm

re: #181 subsailor68

I know, of course that won’t happen, because the competition will still be running with the “breaking news” - and by the time awards season comes around, everyone will have forgotten the original crap spewed by these people.

Everything goes down the memory hole. And those who made the wrong call on these reports never gets held accountable for their mistakes, even when they are so completely off the rails wrong.

I know that when I led my updated coverage today I made sure to specifically mention that much of what I blogged yesterday was wrong - bad information and reports. And we’re continuing to get bad information since much of what was reported yesterday gets treated as fact, even if it was unverified.

Where I consider something fact - or at least plausible I relate it as such. If I make a supposition, I say it that way. I know I use lots of waffle words - but I try to make educated guesses based on the information presented. Yesterday was no exception. When you have multiple and different sources - different news outlets and bureaus (AP, CNN, MSNBC, or Fox - not counting affiliates), running with various items, that gets more weight than if a lone affiliate provides a story hit.

Then, there are stories that are complimentary to each other - that seem to support a thesis of what happened - such as the video showing Hasan the morning before the attack, and claims that he shouted Allahu Akbar.

But the media doesn’t want to focus on the meat grinder nature of getting a breaking news story. It would show just how beholden they are to rumor and innuendo as everyone else, but with 24/7/365 punditry and the ‘net, everyone wants to get ahead of the curve and tell the story.

Urging caution isn’t going to get you eyeballs on your posts. It really is as simple as that.

And that’s a sad state of affairs, but one that has been going on for a long time.

205 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:05:03pm

I guess we can call it the Baruch Goldstein defense.

That justification is that he snapped after, as a doctor, constantly working on his friends and neighbors wounded in Palestinian terror attacks, and nothing was being done about it.

It’s crystal clear that HE was a terrorist (and saying otherwise is rightly a bannable offense).

Save me your conditions.

206 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:05:47pm

re: #202 JasonA

Which reminds me… Dexter has been excellent this season.

Durnit, I really need to start watching that show. By all indications I’d adore it.

207 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:05:55pm

re: #198 WindUpBird

If he wasn’t in therapy…

Mental health isn’t like smelling BO. Serial killers and sociopaths can keep themselves together in public. Ted Bundy, anyone?

Wow.

You really really really really really really really really really really really don’t want this to be terrorism, do you?

208 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:06:34pm

BBL

209 researchok  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:06:44pm

re: #192 WindUpBird

Then again, our grandparents had OTC access to drugs that we now know are highly addictive and dangerous. Each generation has its own opiates. Whatever our problems in 2009, I prefer them to the problems of the world our grandparents inhabited.

True, but I wasn’t referring to material things.

I wanted to note that it seems the more material possessions we have, the less spiritual (both religious and non religious versions) we becomes. Our focus is ourselves, our needs and our comforts and everything eklse is secondary. Today, parents sacrifice their kids well being for their own.

Immigrants today want it all for themselves. Years ago, newcomers understood they were working for their children- and that formed strong families. They sacrificed for their kids.

Those days are gone.

210 lawhawk  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:07:19pm

re: #184 Stanley Sea

It is often said as a rallying cry, or when someone has made a fateful decision. It’s a declaration of faith. Wiki gives the general gist.

That’s why it can be used in a rally demonstrating against the mullahs - or by a suicide bomber or a jihadi engaging in a terror attack.

211 Bagua  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:07:21pm

re: #187 WindUpBird

May not have been one setback, but many. It’s not inconceivable that he was already on the precipice of breaking and it just took one more thing.

I am not discarding the possibility that this was premeditated terrorism, though!

Intentionally shooting 43 people is always terrorism, and this was obviously premeditated. While his exact motivation, affiliation, mental state and so on has yet to be determined the act certainly goes beyond any sort of nervous breakdown.

212 Four More Tears  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:07:29pm

re: #205 Ben Hur

It’s crystal clear that HE was a terrorist (and saying otherwise is rightly a bannable offense).

I don’t think you’ll get much of an argument from us lefties. Well, the ones who post here anyway. Especially if the minor details prove to be true.

213 Four More Tears  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:07:47pm

re: #206 WindUpBird

Durnit, I really need to start watching that show. By all indications I’d adore it.

You must start from the beginning.

214 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:07:52pm

re: #207 Ben Hur

Wow.

You really really really really really really really really really really really don’t want this to be terrorism, do you?

All these damn nuances. Of course terrorism played a role, as did Islam, as did the stress of militarly life, as did his social and family origins.

Everybody is free to incorporate whatever they want into their sound byte/blogposting/rant in order to make of it what they want.

And they will.

215 Spider Mensch  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:08:12pm

re: #199 bosforus

Everyone needs a state issued compassion partner. It would solve all these problems.
/

speculation, sounds like he needed a wife…I think I read somewhere he had been talking with a co worker or relative someone to that effect about having problems meeting women…you can take that back to that some islamic man view of what his needs in a woman are..a view that doesn’t allow for a typical western woman…much too much for me to go into..but there alot of times is this repressed sexual mate problem with many of these jihadist, suicide bomber, etc…of course, as I said to start with, this is just my own personal speculaton

216 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:08:21pm

re: #202 JasonA

Which reminds me… Dexter has been excellent this season.

I’ve only seen the first 4 episodes. I’m hoping to catch up with the rest of the season soon. John Lithgow’s awesome, but I’m used to seeing him do comedy.

217 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:08:43pm

Here is one of the victims

A 23-year-old soldier from St. Paul was among those killed in the Fort Hood shootings Thursday afternoon.

Kham Xiong was one of the 13 people confirmed killed in Texas when Army psychiatrist Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan opened fire. His motive remains unclear.

There is a picture of him at the link.

218 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:08:49pm

re: #203 albusteve

..his motive is probably some sort of religious/ideological revenge…but then, so what?

Eh, might help with psych profiles for military in the future? Might change policy for counselors? Knowledge is a good thing.

The term “ideological revenge”, I like that. Because it sort of implies a less rational, not totally premeditated act that was informed by belief, but wasn’t something like a sleeper cell.

219 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:09:13pm

Hezbollah censors Diary of Anne Frank

BEIRUT — Anne Frank’s diary has been censored out of a school textbook in Lebanon following a campaign by the militant group Hezbollah claiming the classic work promotes Zionism.

The row erupted after Hezbollah learned excerpts of “The Diary of Anne Frank” were included in the textbook used by a private English-language school in western Beirut.

220 Four More Tears  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:09:19pm

re: #216 Mad Al-Jaffee

I’ve only seen the first 4 episodes. I’m hoping to catch up with the rest of the season soon. John Lithgow’s awesome, but I’m used to seeing him do comedy.

He pulls off creepy very very well, though.

221 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:09:24pm

re: #183 Sharmuta

John Lennon is dead because some weirdo read Catcher in the Rye.

Some people are just messed up in the head. They use whatever they can around them to justify what they’re thinking whether it’s a religious text, or a sekrit backwards message in their music, to whatever.

Maybe he’s a jihadi, maybe he’s psycho, maybe both. I’m sure we’ll find out as time goes on, but to think “life’s little setbacks” can’t cause some people to do this sort of thing just isn’t true. The only prerequisite is a previously unstable mind.

This guy’s parents are apparently dead; his closest relatives are aunts, uncles, cousins. He didn’t feel like he “fit in”. He was a loner, kept to himself.

This guy had more wrong in his life than just a few “little setbacks”. I think it’s clear he did not have a firm grip on reality; and it seems he then used certain tenets of his faith to justify his actions to himself.

222 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:09:53pm

re: #204 lawhawk

Hi lawhawk. Great post.

Where I consider something fact - or at least plausible I relate it as such. If I make a supposition, I say it that way. I know I use lots of waffle words - but I try to make educated guesses based on the information presented.

Sure, you’ll make a mistake now and again, but unlike many in the media - well, as you noted above you’re at least doing your best to sift through what you’re getting and separating it into fact or supposition - and labeling each as such.

My beef is with those in the business who don’t even bother to try.

223 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:10:50pm

re: #220 JasonA

He pulls off creepy very very well, though.

Raising Cain

One of his best performances

224 Four More Tears  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:11:56pm

re: #223 Guanxi88

Raising Cain

One of his best performances

I might have to check that out.

225 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:12:00pm

re: #209 researchok

True, but I wasn’t referring to material things.

I wanted to note that it seems the more material possessions we have, the less spiritual (both religious and non religious versions) we becomes. Our focus is ourselves, our needs and our comforts and everything eklse is secondary. Today, parents sacrifice their kids well being for their own.

Immigrants today want it all for themselves. Years ago, newcomers understood they were working for their children- and that formed strong families. They sacrificed for their kids.

Those days are gone.

I meant, that our Grandparents had their own distractions from spirituality as well. For them, it may have been opiates, for us it’s technology. I don’t really believe we are fundamentally inferior parents or inferior people to our parents. I think our challenges are different.

226 bosforus  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:12:03pm

re: #215 Spider Mensch

Somewhere in the deep (or not so deep) recesses of the brain a motive can be found.
Tip for MSM: motive ≠ forgivable excuse

227 kilroy  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:12:32pm

If he was in therapy would he be deployed to a war zone?

228 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:12:32pm

Compassion Fatigue is a real thing. It doesn’t make psychiatrists go insane and kill people. But then again that wouldn’t fit with the “war damaged soldier” theme the media wants to push and it sounds scientific. Of course, it isn’t being used scientifically.

To be fair, I asked a psychiatrist relative about it.

She said, that if your job is dealing with heavy problems of people day in and day out, it can lead to a warped view of the world. If you are dealing with people who were traumatized in war, then the stories are no doubt very heavy. It can cause depression, withdrawal and a number of neuroses.

However, it does not cause people to go on shooting rampages.

So thank you media, for:

1. distorting the facts yet again to fill a more entertaining meme. Call it artistic licence.

2. Filling every water cooler know it all with yet another useless theory.

3. Reducing the tragedy to entertainment out of sheer greed.

4. Selling me some more ultra soft, tiny fiber fingers massage my ass toilet paper.

229 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:12:37pm

re: #219 Conservative Moonbat

Pansies. If they had any guts, they’d re-write the story so Anne converts to Islam and joins the Hitler Youth, where she helps the trains run on time.

/

230 vxbush  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:12:47pm

re: #221 reine.de.tout

pssst…Scrabble needs you…that is all

231 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:12:59pm

re: #223 Guanxi88

Raising Cain

One of his best performances

He was great in The Twilight Zone movie. I loved Third Rock from the Sun. Very underrated show.

232 J.S.  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:13:03pm

re: #204 lawhawk

I think of it as “levels of trustworthiness” — blogs, little to zero; CNN, breaking news, taken with skepticism (I don’t mind the uncertainty, and I think they’re pretty straightforward when presenting breaking news stories); major newspapers (higher degree of trustworthiness, since if it’s printed, it’s taken time to verify/source out info); next, of course, would be actual court trials (much of the info presented even in newspapers wouldn’t be acceptable in a criminal case, it’d be hearsay, etc.); reputable scholars/historians five to 10 years hence.

233 Kragar  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:13:52pm

re: #223 Guanxi88

Raising Cain

One of his best performances

Dont forget his chilling performance as John Whorfin

Youtube Video

LAUGH WHILE YOU CAN MONKEY BOY!

234 albusteve  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:14:01pm

re: #218 WindUpBird

Eh, might help with psych profiles for military in the future? Might change policy for counselors? Knowledge is a good thing.

The term “ideological revenge”, I like that. Because it sort of implies a less rational, not totally premeditated act that was informed by belief, but wasn’t something like a sleeper cell.

all that is subjective blab, just like you say what you think something implies…people are making too much about motive, trying to get into peoples heads to determine motive is just intellectual acrobatics…ask him what his motive is, maybe he’ll give an honest answer…the rest is pretty much theoretical…good luck with your mental psych profiles, a lot of blather

235 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:14:03pm

I was just reading a listing of online diary entries from George Sodini, a sexually frustrated 48-year-old computer programmer who killed three women and wounded nine at his L.A. fitness center in August in the most recent Harper’s.

It shows him slowly walking off the edge of the cliff, even to the point that he got a raise and a promotion on July 20th, but that did not put him off his planning.

236 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:15:09pm

re: #233 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dont forget his chilling performance as John Whorfin


LAUGH WHILE YOU CAN MONKEY BOY!

Who could forget that? My wife despises the film, which makes the monthly screenings of it all the more enjoyable.

237 reine.de.tout  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:15:10pm

re: #230 vxbush

pssst…Scrabble needs you…that is all

uh-oh.
OK.
I thought it was somebody else’s turn.
going now.

238 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:15:18pm

OK, off topic, but on the general meme of stupid and crazy I present the following. These are all quotes taken from fundamentalist web-boards but said out loud.

poetv.com

239 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:15:21pm

re: #41 HelloDare

From NPR. Follow the link at Instapundit to the NPR audio. There’s a lot more.

He gave a Grand Rounds presentation… You take turns giving a lecture on, you know, the correct treatment of schizophrenia, the right drugs to prescribe for personality disorder, you know, that sort of thing. But instead of giving an academic paper, he gave a lecture on the Koran, and they said it didn’t seem to be just an informational lecture, but it seemed to be his own beliefs. That’s what a lot of people thought.

He talked about how if you’re a nonbeliever the Koran says you should have your head cut off, you should have oil poured down your throat, you should be set on fire. And I said well couldn’t this just be his educating you? And the psychiatrist said yes, but one of the Muslims in the audience, another psychiatrist, raised his hand and was quite disturbed and he said you know, a lot of us don’t believe these things you’re saying, and that there was no place where Hasan couched it as this is what the Koran teaches but you know I don’t believe it. And people actually talked in the hallway afterwards about ‘is he one of these people that’s going to freak out and shoot people someday?’

Ohhh, good Lord.

240 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:16:05pm

re: #238 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, off topic, but on the general meme of stupid and crazy I present the following. These are all quotes taken from fundamentalist web-boards but said out loud.

[Link: www.poetv.com…]

oops try the direct link here:

Youtube Video
241 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:17:49pm

re: #211 Bagua

Intentionally shooting 43 people is always terrorism, and this was obviously premeditated. While his exact motivation, affiliation, mental state and so on has yet to be determined the act certainly goes beyond any sort of nervous breakdown.

Can you see where I might want to make a distinction between, say, what this guy did, and an organized sleeper cell? That if it was premeditated, that there’s a huge difference between it being premeditated a week out like a workplace shooting, and being premeditated months out like an organized terrorist cell.

As LVQ says, it’s already become a very important political crucible.

242 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:19:21pm

OT ,,,
Another day ,, another nut to crack

Investigators Raid ACORN New Orleans Office
wdsu.com

243 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:19:47pm

re: #233 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Dont forget his chilling performance as John Whorfin


[Video]LAUGH WHILE YOU CAN MONKEY BOY!

I love that movie so much I literally bought the t-shirt. :D I must have seen it 20 times by now.

“Bigbooti, you coward. you are-a the weakest individual I-a ever know.”

244 AlexRogan  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:20:07pm

re: #151 lawhawk

It does. The penalty for murder under the UCMJ is either life confinement or death, as determined by the court martial.

Since there’s an appearance of premeditation here, the court martial could see its way to find death penalty warranted.

Whether the perp was religiously motivated on not, I hope he lives to get court-martialed, so he can swing at the end of a rope (or however the Army would handle his execution) for his dastardly crimes.

/what a cowardly son of a bitch…

245 Kobyashi Maru  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:20:15pm

Maybe I’m missing something in all this but wasn’t there some reason to keep this guy under surveillance or do whatever the Army can do to people who are known to have posted to jihadi sites or whatever I heard he apparently did months ago and was simply allowed to walk around, like a ticking time bomb. Doesn’t somebody in the chain of command deserve a little scrutiny or did they find out he is just a misguided soul? How was he not followed, drummed out whatever before he did this?! How many others just like him are around where their habits were tipped off and nobody follows up? This is the ARMY for goodness sake! Is it sloth, stupidity, PC ness or what? I don’t get it…

246 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:21:06pm

Very interesting discussion(s) on the thread concerning the Major’s state of mind. I’ve been through voir dire a number of times in several states in which I’ve lived. I’m afraid - were I to be selected for jury duty in this case - my response to my opinion regarding the extenuating circumstances related to his mental condition at the time of the crime would be:

“It is of no consequence to me. My responsibility as a juror is simply to determine whether or not the defendant committed the act. If so, I shall vote guilty. If not, I shall vote not guilty. I will leave the issue of his mental condition to those tasked with the penalty phase. If I’m one of them, I will consider it then.”

247 albusteve  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:21:10pm

re: #241 WindUpBird

Can you see where I might want to make a distinction between, say, what this guy did, and an organized sleeper cell? That if it was premeditated, that there’s a huge difference between it being premeditated a week out like a workplace shooting, and being premeditated months out like an organized terrorist cell.

As LVQ says, it’s already become a very important political crucible.

no I don’t see it…what difference would it make how long he thought about it?…all that stuff is after the fact

248 Kragar  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:21:24pm

re: #243 WindUpBird

I love that movie so much I literally bought the t-shirt. :D I must have seen it 20 times by now.

“Bigbooti, you coward. you are-a the weakest individual I-a ever know.”

BIGBOO-TAY!

249 charlz  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:21:55pm

re: #177 LudwigVanQuixote

Will asses scrape off if we don’t have pre-lotioned super mega ultra soft toilet paper?


No, and they won’t be loaded with dingleberries either!

250 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:22:05pm

re: #247 albusteve

It might help the military to prevent it from happening again. Laws and policies are often changed in these circumstances.

251 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:22:17pm

re: #241 WindUpBird

Can you see where I might want to make a distinction between, say, what this guy did, and an organized sleeper cell? That if it was premeditated, that there’s a huge difference between it being premeditated a week out like a workplace shooting, and being premeditated months out like an organized terrorist cell.

As LVQ says, it’s already become a very important political crucible.

I would say more that it is a great vehicle for pundits to hijack and use as a straw man for their favorite views.

252 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:23:03pm

re: #249 charlz

No, and they won’t be loaded with dingleberries either!

For the record, I am very pro-toilet paper. See it as a metaphor.

253 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:23:56pm

re: #105 Ben Hur

SJS is terrorism.

SJS is jihad.

It is the result of the same incitement, whether done to a group in a mosque, rally or the individual on the internet.

Exactly. Even if this man had no ties to organized terrorist groups, which I’m going to guess he didn’t, he was jacked up by their rhetoric, and they will count his kills as a win. Jihad is not centralized. If a carefully groomed attack team carries out an operation, that’s fine with them. If a screwed-up angry man from Silver Spring picks up a gun, also fine with them.

This is the point people miss when they try to insist people like Roeder are not terrorists, and that people like Randall Terry bear no guilt if they didn’t put the gun in his hand.

254 albusteve  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:24:07pm

re: #250 WindUpBird

It might help the military to prevent it from happening again. Laws and policies are often changed in these circumstances.

how?…to expect to prevent this stuff is silly presumption, no one can read another persons mind

255 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:24:12pm

re: #248 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

BIGBOO-TAY!

heehee :D

“Lithium is no longer available on credit.”

256 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:25:39pm

re: #252 LudwigVanQuixote

For the record, I am very pro-toilet paper. See it as a metaphor.

Is that because you’re so full of sh,,, ummm,,, nevahmind!!

//

257 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:26:00pm

I’m taking off early today. Have a great weekend everyone!

258 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:26:22pm

re: #254 albusteve

how?…to expect to prevent this stuff is silly presumption, no one can read another persons mind

We still screen passengers before airline flights, right? Just because we can’t predict the fture doens’t mean we don’t take precautions. If there truly was something to this “compassion fatigue” thing (It seems like a stretch) and that factored into it, changing policies regarding army psych counselors wouldn’t hurt.

259 Zeroisanumber  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:26:44pm

Sounds like Sgt. Munley and her partner are a couple of Big Damn Heroes.

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:27:10pm

re: #116 kilroy

Seattle’s dealing with the second trial of Naveed Haq. The difference was he confronted unarmed women at a Jewish Federation center and was only able to kill one. How many trials will Hasan have and will Obama treat him like Bush did McVeigh.

What does Bush have to do with McVeigh?

261 Diamond Bullet  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:27:44pm

She and her partner apparently responded in under 3 minutes. She charged in, confronted him at point blank range (~ 2 feet away), and shot him 4 times. She was hit three times. Oh, and she’s all of 5’4” and 120lbs. Officer Munley, you truly laid down the law. Awesome.

nydailynews.com

She is married with two daughters and is no longer in the armed forces.

“She’s the happiest, sweetest, most fun-loving girl you’d ever want to be friends with - and never want to cross,” Peterson said.

262 cliffster  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:28:09pm
We don’t know all the answers yet. And I would caution against jumping to conclusions until we have all the facts

I guess because in this case there’s no white cop at black Harvard professor’s house…

263 J.S.  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:29:33pm

re: #250 WindUpBird

Exactly. As with much of the mental health research, you really (ultimately) want to be able to predict these sorts of occurrences, so as to avoid a repeat. I once read a fascinating article (in a journal on Behavioral Science), and it dealt with the problemsnherent in making predictions based on statistical data. Say, for example, you’re the head of a mental health unit, and you’re treating patients with degrees of depression — and you want to know — who will go on to commit suicide? you give each patient a written/oral exam, to look at various psychological/personality factors; a year or so later, some of the patients may have gone on to commit suicide — so, then you look at those earlier surveys and try to find some underlying (predictive) data which could have red-flagged those patients…).

264 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:29:45pm

Afternoon, all. Are they passing out sweets and celebrating in Gaza?

265 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:29:48pm

re: #130 kilroy

I wonder what standard will be required to confirm these claims. A preponderance of the evidence or beyond a reasonable doubt?

I’ll settle for investigators compiling reasonable evidence, which it’s been too soon to do.

266 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:30:15pm

re: #262 cliffster

I guess because in this case there’s no white cop at black Harvard professor’s house…

So the Cambridge Police (and any other) police dept should disperse their officers dependant upon the race of the persons house they have to go too?

267 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:30:17pm

re: #261 Diamond Bullet

She and her partner apparently responded in under 3 minutes. She charged in, confronted him at point blank range (~ 2 feet away), and shot him 4 times. She was hit three times. Oh, and she’s all of 5’4” and 120lbs. Officer Munley, you truly laid down the law. Awesome.

[Link: www.nydailynews.com…]

Sounds like a fine example of the best that Texas and America have to offer.

268 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:30:25pm

re: #251 LudwigVanQuixote

I would say more that it is a great vehicle for pundits to hijack and use as a straw man for their favorite views.

It is that as well! I’m prepared for a lot of bullcrap armchair psychology masquerading as expertise on cable.

269 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:30:35pm

re: #260 SanFranciscoZionist

What does Bush have to do with McVeigh?

He was executed on Bush’s watch, for whatever that’s worth.

270 albusteve  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:30:39pm

re: #258 WindUpBird

We still screen passengers before airline flights, right? Just because we can’t predict the fture doens’t mean we don’t take precautions. If there truly was something to this “compassion fatigue” thing (It seems like a stretch) and that factored into it, changing policies regarding army psych counselors wouldn’t hurt.

we don’t profile…and if we did it would be subjective…what’s with screening passengers?…that has nothing to to with anything besides weapons…they can’t bust you for being angry, or depressed, or fatigued…you are really just making shit up now…what changing policies are you even talking about?…regarding what?

271 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:30:55pm

re: #259 Zeroisanumber

Sounds like Sgt. Munley and her partner are a couple of Big Damn Heroes.

Welcome, hatchling.

272 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:31:18pm

re: #245 Kobyashi Maru

Maybe I’m missing something in all this but wasn’t there some reason to keep this guy under surveillance or do whatever the Army can do to people who are known to have posted to jihadi sites or whatever I heard he apparently did months ago and was simply allowed to walk around, like a ticking time bomb. Doesn’t somebody in the chain of command deserve a little scrutiny or did they find out he is just a misguided soul? How was he not followed, drummed out whatever before he did this?! How many others just like him are around where their habits were tipped off and nobody follows up? This is the ARMY for goodness sake! Is it sloth, stupidity, PC ness or what? I don’t get it…

The last I heard, it wasn’t yet clear who made the posts you’re referring to. Perhaps this has been clarified, but it isn’t always simple to connect an Internet posting with a particular individual, although it’s easier than many people seem to think.

273 subsailor68  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:31:58pm

re: #259 Zeroisanumber

Sounds like Sgt. Munley and her partner are a couple of Big Damn Heroes.

It certainly does. It reminded me of a Will Rogers quote (had to go look it up - to make sure I got it right):

“We can’t all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by”

I can assure you, I’ll be very happy to be on the curb when Sgt. Munley goes by - but I think I’ll be standing, not sitting.

274 kilroy  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:32:10pm

re: #260 SanFranciscoZionist

The ultimate appeal of the sentence is to the President.

275 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:32:33pm

re: #149 Ben Hur


I’m 1000% sure that if this was a lone wolf nut job KKKer, this theorizing wouldn’t be happening.

I’m quite sure it would, and most loudly from those who immediately knew all the facts about this case. Look at how people reacted to the Holocaust Museum shooting.

276 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:34:43pm

re: #150 kilroy

I was referring to what standard applies before we believe facts that are presented,not a standard to convict. In our PC world it seems we should believe very little.

Ah yes! Let’s get rid of that ol’ demon PC, and believe whatever the hell, without waiting for any facts!

/Why not tell us what you think, instead of complaining because some people feel it’s too soon to form firm conclusions?

277 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:35:58pm

re: #270 albusteve

we don’t profile…and if we did it would be subjective…what’s with screening passengers?…that has nothing to to with anything besides weapons…they can’t bust you for being angry, or depressed, or fatigued…you are really just making shit up now…what changing policies are you even talking about?…regarding what?

Say the shooter was compelled to have regular therapy as part of his position. (Maybe he did, we’ll assume he did not). That would be a policy. That might have caught his intent before he picked up a weapon.

I’m not making anything up, I’m opining about how learning more about his motives and psychology could be a helpful thing. Don’t you think it may have been easier to spot what he was about to do if he was seeing a shrink himself weekly?

This isn’t even a controversial stand, why does it bother you? We studied Ted Bundy’s case to try and figure out why he did what he did. Should we not have done that? Should we just have said “yep, Bundy’s a murderer, fuck it, don’t need to know any more!”

278 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:37:15pm

re: #171 sattv4u2

Not really. Lets not forget that we have actually had a killer use the “Twinkie Defense” (he killed because of the junk food he was eating)

The expression derives from the 1979 trial of Dan White, a former San Francisco, California (U.S.) Supervisor who assassinated Mayor George Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk, on November 27, 1978. At the trial, noted psychiatrist Martin Blinder testified that White had been depressed at the time of the crime, and pointed to several factors indicating White’s depression: he had quit his job; he shunned his wife; and although normally clean-cut, he had become slovenly in appearance. Furthermore, White had previously been a fitness fanatic and health food advocate, but had begun consuming junk food and sugar-laden soft drinks like Coca-Cola

Yes, but the ‘Twinkie defense’ came into common slang use because it was and remains so incredibly stupid.

279 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:39:36pm

re: #149 Ben Hur

I’m 1000% sure that if this was a lone wolf nut job KKKer, this theorizing wouldn’t be happening.

Are you claiming that we don’t study the motives of serial killers and mass murderers? This theorizing ALWAYS happens.

280 kilroy  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:39:53pm

re: #276 SanFranciscoZionist

I believe the word “alleged” is far overused. I’m really in a quandary over what to believe from the press. The NY Times and CBS have done a lot to temper my beliefs.

281 albusteve  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:41:33pm

re: #277 WindUpBird

Say the shooter was compelled to have regular therapy as part of his position. (Maybe he did, we’ll assume he did not). That would be a policy. That might have caught his intent before he picked up a weapon.

I’m not making anything up, I’m opining about how learning more about his motives and psychology could be a helpful thing. Don’t you think it may have been easier to spot what he was about to do if he was seeing a shrink himself weekly?

This isn’t even a controversial stand, why does it bother you? We studied Ted Bundy’s case to try and figure out why he did what he did. Should we not have done that? Should we just have said “yep, Bundy’s a murderer, fuck it, don’t need to know any more!”

yes, if he tells his analyst, I’m fatigued and want to kill somebody…but you are talking alot of ‘ifs’…so now we presume to know why Bundy did what he did…now what?…is there someone out there looking for more Bundys?…knowing somebodies motive after the fact is pretty useless..you can’t go around telling people, “we think you have wicked thoughts” and need to be locked up for prevention…the whole of your argument just accomplishes nothing

282 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:41:51pm

re: #184 Stanley Sea

I followed the protest of the Iranian elections pretty closely and noticed that every night from the roof tops people yelled Allah Akbar as a kind of solidarity call. I’m pretty naive to the SJS possibilities, so in that being my only exposure to the use of Allah Akbar, I’m confused how this (if confirmed) is viewed as necessarily jihad-ish…?

It’s a key phrase of Muslim prayer, repeated many times during the day. In Iran it seems to have emerged as a catchphrase for protestors. It’s also been used by much less nice people while carrying out terrorist attacks. What it signifies is very much dependent on intent. But I have to say, saying it before you open fire on a bunch of people is more jihad-ish than not.

283 ryannon  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:42:58pm

re: #148 J.S.

there are a gazillion studies out there saying basically that terrorists are not deranged. Here’s one such review (pdf format) of the literature from a psychologist…(this is circa 2002). I’ve read other analyses (from Israel — the researchers concluded that the builk of the terrorists were actually middle class, well educated, upwardly mobile, etc. This was during the Second Intifada, etc.)

With all due respects to the studies, to be a ‘terrorist’ and ‘not deranged’ seems to be a contradiction in terms. Take oneself as a point of reference: one day, you decide to take out as many people as you can before you’re gunned down, explode, or whatever. That’s not deranged?

284 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:45:04pm

re: #281 albusteve

You’re arguing that studying the motives and psychology and background of a serial killer or mass murder or terrorist is not valuable. In my opinion, you could not be more wrong. I believe we are at an impasse.

285 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:45:17pm

re: #209 researchok


Immigrants today want it all for themselves. Years ago, newcomers understood they were working for their children- and that formed strong families. They sacrificed for their kids.

Those days are gone.

Not true of the immigrant families I know, not at all.

286 albusteve  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:46:19pm

re: #283 ryannon

With all due respects to the studies, to be a ‘terrorist’ and ‘not deranged’ seems to be a contradiction in terms. Take oneself as a point of reference: one day, you decide to take out as many people as you can before you’re gunned down, explode, or whatever. That’s not deranged?

depends on your social standards and principles…there is as many definitions of applied deranged as there are people…what difference does it make anyway?

287 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:49:16pm

re: #269 Fenway_Nation

He was executed on Bush’s watch, for whatever that’s worth.

So all Obama has to do (per the first poster) is stay in office long enough for this man to be executed?

/OK, but some folks here may not like that

288 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:49:53pm

re: #274 kilroy

The ultimate appeal of the sentence is to the President.

So?

289 albusteve  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:50:37pm

re: #284 WindUpBird

You’re arguing that studying the motives and psychology and background of a serial killer or mass murder or terrorist is not valuable. In my opinion, you could not be more wrong. I believe we are at an impasse.

wrong…I said his motive is unimportant, and knowing his motive is useless to prevent another mass murder, except by dumb luck…you have not provided any reason to believe that knowing his motive will save future lives…it’s all subjective…there is more useless knowledge than otherwise

290 J.S.  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:55:11pm

re: #283 ryannon

there are many times that a health care professional (or a team) will need to assess an individual — that’s to determine whether or not the person is in need of hospitalization (due to mental health issues). Could be an elderly person suffering from dementia (but who insists he wants to live independently, etc., and family member want him to be supervised), etc. So the health personnel conduct interviews, and have the patient fill out paper and pencil tests, etc. In other words, the person’s mental health is evaluated. If the person is deemed to be sufficiently unstable or ill or presents a danger to himself or others, he may face a hospital stay…Theoretically, terrorists given such an assessment, would be given a “thumbs up” — they wouldn’t present the kinds of symptoms that would get them hospitalized…they’d “pass.” Hence, they’re not “deranged” or “out of the realm of normal.”

291 ryannon  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:55:38pm

re: #286 albusteve

depends on your social standards and principles…there is as many definitions of applied deranged as there are people…what difference does it make anyway?

Not a hell of a lot to me. But I thought that what appears to be a contradiction in terms worthy of note. And having rapidly scanned the .pdf file, I’d say that the author is splitting hairs among the rather restrictive parameters of the DSM-IV definition of psychopathology.

292 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:57:03pm

re: #289 albusteve

wrong…I said his motive is unimportant, and knowing his motive is useless to prevent another mass murder, except by dumb luck…you have not provided any reason to believe that knowing his motive will save future lives…it’s all subjective…there is more useless knowledge than otherwise

Not necessarily. Human behavior is exquisitely complex and difficult to piece together. Conventional notions of causation don’t work with us, and so, in a certain sense, there’s no such thing as useless information. If trying to build a profile of these types, you need and want EVERYTHING you can possibly have on them.

Take the patterns of suicide bombers in Britain. Forensic psychology has been teamed up with forensic accounting, and there are certain patterns of banking behavior that appear to be common to most known suicide bombers in Britain, but exceptionally rare among standard Britons, irrespective of religion of background. Same goes for spending habits - these guys leave clues everywhere, but they’re not generally recognized as such.

So, there’s no such thing as useless information in a case like this.

293 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:57:31pm

re: #289 albusteve

wrong…I said his motive is unimportant, and knowing his motive is useless to prevent another mass murder, except by dumb luck…you have not provided any reason to believe that knowing his motive will save future lives…it’s all subjective…there is more useless knowledge than otherwise

You believe it’s unimportant, I believe it’s important! I gave an example, you didn’t want to hear it.

294 ryannon  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:03:54pm

re: #290 J.S.

there are many times that a health care professional (or a team) will need to assess an individual — that’s to determine whether or not the person is in need of hospitalization (due to mental health issues). Could be an elderly person suffering from dementia (but who insists he wants to live independently, etc., and family member want him to be supervised), etc. So the health personnel conduct interviews, and have the patient fill out paper and pencil tests, etc. In other words, the person’s mental health is evaluated. If the person is deemed to be sufficiently unstable or ill or presents a danger to himself or others, he may face a hospital stay…Theoretically, terrorists given such an assessment, would be given a “thumbs up” — they wouldn’t present the kinds of symptoms that would get them hospitalized…they’d “pass.” Hence, they’re not “deranged” or “out of the realm of normal.”

Yes, of course. But I ascribe that to the methods of assessment and evaluation. And for anyone but a half-wit or an individual with a debilitating mental condition, there’s nothing easier to simulate than normality. My hypothesis is that when someone decides on the wholesale murder of anyone who happens to be in his/her path while knowing that such a course of action can only lead to his/her own annihilation, that person is by definition deranged.

295 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:07:01pm
296 J.S.  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:13:28pm

re: #294 ryannon

(one of the problems with suggesting that Individual X who committed Crime Y is “mentally deranged” — is with the criminal justice system in a civilized world. Since the time of John Locke, we do not punish (jail) people who are deemed to be psychotic…or “delusional” or “deranged.” they are considered morally exempt — they cannot form “evil intent” because they are “insane” or “deranged”. Hence, if, for example, Hasan would be given a mental health assessment, and it’s discovered that he’s a delusional psychotic…he cannot then be held accountable for his crimes. that’s the way it works..)

297 The Optimist  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:47:52pm
We don’t know all the answers yet. And I would caution against jumping to conclusions until we have all the facts.

Hey Obama, come on man, make a frickin decision. You cannot put off every vote or decision for all time. This is as close to a no-brainer decision as you will ever get. Face it, Major Hasan is a muslim who went jihad and killed U.S. soldiers.

298 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:03:10pm
299 Pickles  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:26:29pm

I don’t know if any of the allegations as to what he said or blogged or whatever are true. Nonetheless it does appear there were warning signs that this guy had issues. Hindsight is great and of course most of us (I would like to think) wouldn’t say we would know from those warning signs that he was going to shoot people. Still, the fact that there were signs and nothing was done to address it (unless I missed something) is really the most disturbing thing to me.

300 Sloppy  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:01:05pm

I asked a physician friend if all psychiatrists were crazy. He said, “Not necessarily. Just the ones I know.”

301 BigRedGulp  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:17:30pm

Our Leader is so calm and in control in these highly-charged situations. We shouldn’t speculate that a Muslim officer who has voiced intense religious opposition to the country’s Iraq and Afghanistan policies, posted threatening statements on radical Islamist web sites and shouted “God is great” while mowing down dozens of his fellow soldiers might be a jihadist. On the other hand, Obama could have pointed out that Sgt. Mulney obviously acted “stupidly” by firing on Hasan. She should have known that he was a victimized minority and handled the situation differently.

302 dogg  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:50:17pm

re: #301 BigRedGulp

I thought Obama’s response was something ONION put together.

303 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 8:03:09pm

re: #280 kilroy

I believe the word “alleged” is far overused. I’m really in a quandary over what to believe from the press. The NY Times and CBS have done a lot to temper my beliefs.

No, no, and no. That’s done for a VERY good reason.

Under the US legal system, everyone is presumed innocent until proved guilty. News outlets are never, and MUST never be in a position to presume anyone guilty. You want an unbiased media? Well you got it, but that means that people accused of criminal behavior will be “alleged” to have done it until they are convicted.

It is not the job of a free press to advocate for a particular point of view, even if that point of view happens to parallel your own.

Allow me to direct your attention to one Richard Jewell.

304 [deleted]  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 9:39:11pm
305 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 9:48:07pm

And another asshole flounces off with his first comment.

306 hellosnackbar  Sat, Nov 7, 2009 4:15:29am

Words cannot express my admiration for Sgt Munley.
Wounded she was still dutiful to the point of discharging her weapon accurately with the result that she probably saved many more innocent lives.
Courage and valour above and beyond the call of duty?it would seem so.
The Obamessiah should seriously consider the awarding of the congressional medal of honour(if that’s America’s top award?).


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