This NPR segment from Morning Edition reveals that alleged Fort Hood shooter Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan gave a lecture to other doctors at Walter Reed Medical Center that “really freaked them out:” Officials Begin Putting Shooting Pieces Together. The guy was apparently giving off all kinds of warning signs.
2 |
Surabaya Stew Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:32:41pm |
This is eerily and sadly similar to the Virginia Tech Massacre, where those that knew the perpetrator were also freaked out by him and weren't totally shocked that he could have done a crime like this.
| 3 |
b_sharp Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:33:27pm |
That's the way it always is, we only notice how close to the edge a person is in hindsight.
That is why it is virtually impossible to prevent something like this from happening.
| 4 |
Vicious Babushka Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:34:32pm |
I'm beginning to get the impression that there were a lot of people who were creeped out by this guy, but they were afraid to speak up out of fear of being called "Islamophobic" or some such PC shit.
| 5 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:35:10pm |
OK, so it is definitely looking like he was a self styled Jihadi. No one should discount the evil of jihadis, but, no one should twist this for political gain either and turn it into something it wasn't.
The guy cracked, and he cracked through Jihad. There is no evidence of sleeper cells, larger conspiracies and cetera.
The guy cracked and became a jihadi. He is not some anti-hero making a statement for you about the justness of the Afghanistan campaign. This applies to idiots on the Left, who will make him an anti-hero, and to the morons on the right who will paint every Muslim in the world with his face.
This is not a referendum on gun control.
I don't give a damn how much you love your guns, there is no reason to have every soldier issued live ammo at all times. Push your stuff elsewhere, you are exploiting the dead - and dead soldiers at that for your own aggrandizement.
This is not a referendum on the death penalty.
To those who are opposed to it, the fellow is likely very guilty. There are probably dozens who saw him do the shooting directly.
To those who can't wait for his execution, get a grip. Your lust for vengeance is anger talking and not a desire for justice. You want to crow about him being dead, because it will make you feel better.
What is the common theme here?
It is not about you!
| 6 |
Vicious Babushka Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:35:19pm |
Also, I'm very surprised that NPR is breaking this story.
| 7 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:35:28pm |
I'll bet everyone who was at that lecture remembers it well. Especially the Muslim who raised his hand and disagreed.
| 8 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:35:39pm |
Hmm- it's interesting Walter Reed doesn't want personnel discussing this with the FBI. Sounds at this time they might have let one get past them. Sad if true.
| 9 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:35:45pm |
Chilling.
Doesn't sound like SJS; sounds like a time bomb that, sadly, finally went off.
| 10 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:36:56pm |
When the first reports were that he was a convert, I somehow wasn't surprised by it - converts to many faiths tend to go overboard, and a new religion can offer a clarity of purpose that many people have lacked. When I learned he grew up in a Muslim family here in the states, I was somewhat shocked. Somehow, I hadn't expected, if it had been jihadist, that it would be one born into a muslim family. It's an odd prejudice of mine, but I tend to view recent converts with greater suspicion.
| 11 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:37:26pm |
re: #7 wrenchwench
I'll bet everyone who was at that lecture remembers it well. Especially the Muslim who raised his hand and disagreed.
I bet they're all recalling it now!
| 14 |
J.S. Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:39:10pm |
re: #8 Sharmuta
In the medical profession, there's a great deal of confidentiality (especially about and among colleagues...it's similar with police departments...you don't go "outside")...
| 15 |
Happy4LA Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:39:32pm |
So if people were fearful of being labeled "Islamaphobic" how do you stop a guy like this from carrying out his murderous act. Had someone done something sooner the guy would have felt "harrassed" just because he was a Muslim. I guess he proved everyone right on how peaceful Islam is. A disgrace to Islam, Jordan and America. May he rot in hell for the harm he's done.
| 16 |
lawhawk Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:39:45pm |
This further adds to my thesis that this wasn't a sudden inspiration to kill, but a premeditated act. I am awaiting to see if the reports indicate whether Hasan picked the time and place for the attack so as to maximize casualties - in conjunction with the intake for soldiers as well as the graduation ceremony, etc. all in the hall?
| 17 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:40:12pm |
This is the second version NPR broadcast this morning. The first version had the statement about standing in the halls wondering about him right after talking about the lecture. Maybe that version was misleading--perhaps there were many occasions of discussing him in the halls.
| 18 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:40:39pm |
Wow...and this guy was supposed to be responsible for the well being of our wounded soldiers?
On some level, I suppose we should be glad this fucking shitstain wasn't a comissioned officer in a combat arms MOS, where he'd have access to stuff much nastier and more lethal than two pistols.
| 19 |
Ericus58 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:40:45pm |
re: #6 Alouette
I occasionally listen to NPR on my afternoon commute home - I don't think their reporting on this event can be dismissed. Yesterday on the way home their programming was what was previously scheduled with the Ft. Hood shooting only being mentioned at the new breaks. I think they put some real effort into getting good info before reporting.
| 20 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:41:20pm |
In hindsight, it seems obvious that Hasan was a major risk. This will no doubt get a lot of attention from the media and Congress as the investigation continues.
A lot of it may come down to his status as an Army-trained doctor. Once the military pays for someone's medical education, they are extremely reluctant to let that doctor go before his or her contract is up. There is a whole system in place to thwart anyone who wants to go to medical school on Uncle Sam's dime and then welch on their commitment. It is possible that this was an overriding priority in the hierarchy's dealings with Hasan and the possibility that he would snap was either discounted or never considered. He was after all, a psychiatrist and a commissioned officer. Mass murder by such people is largely outside our experience in this country, though not elsewhere (as the Glasgow airport attack proved).
| 21 |
cliffster Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:41:29pm |
re: #3 b_sharp
He actually, in seriousness, uses the term "Pre Traumatic Stress Syndrome"
| 22 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:42:22pm |
re: #9 Gearhead
Chilling.
Doesn't sound like SJS; sounds like a time bomb that, sadly, finally went off.
Sounds like a time bomb that eventually used his faith, or portions of it, to justify his actions.
| 24 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:42:43pm |
re: #14 J.S.
In the medical profession, there's a great deal of confidentiality (especially about and among colleagues...it's similar with police departments...you don't go "outside")...
I think this particular community of medical professionals is going to have to ask itself some tough questions, because they let this guy get past them, and now 13 people are dead.
| 25 |
cliffster Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:43:41pm |
re: #24 Sharmuta
I think this particular community of medical professionals is going to have to ask itself some tough questions, because they let this guy get past them, and now 13 people are dead.
It sounds like they don't want to have anything to do with tough questions.
| 26 |
S'latch Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:43:43pm |
I imagine that Virginia Tech is very disappointed that Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan was an alumni.
| 27 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:44:40pm |
re: #16 lawhawk
I tend to agree that the "sudden"ness of SJS is a misnomer. It only seems sudden at the moment of carrying out the evil deed. There has to be some prior time of indoctination, thinking and planning.
| 28 |
lawhawk Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:44:44pm |
re: #14 J.S.
There are also HIPAA concerns, and the investigation has to go through the appropriate channels to discuss his medical records, if any. Separately, investigators will pore over his Army record to determine what exactly was in there re: this incident and any other issues (including a disciplinary action that was referred to in earlier reporting). They're going to want to see if there were missed clues, and whether this pattern may be recognizable among others in the Armed Forces; you can bet that the DoD wants to know if there are others who are in a similar position who can cause such carnage.
This may be an isolated event, but it will likely have widespread repercussions on treatment and evaluation of those who are providing treatment as well as those who make extremist statements of any kind.
| 30 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:45:48pm |
re: #24 Sharmuta
I think this particular community of medical professionals is going to have to ask itself some tough questions, because they let this guy get past them, and now 13 people are dead.
Walter Reed is very infamous for mismanagement. I don't think it is the actual doctors who work there who are the problem generally. I'll bet that there were tons of reports that for whatever reasons, higher-ups refused to follow up properly.
The reason I bet this is the fact that they are in such a CYA mode. Right, if there were no reports to the higher up, then the higher ups would not have issues with their people talking. They would have the out of blaming the lower echelon for not reporting properly.
There will of course be a sacrificial lamb or two out of this.
| 31 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:45:57pm |
re: #26 Lawrence Schmerel
I imagine that Virginia Tech is very disappointed that Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan was an alumni.
It's grotesque under the circumstances.
| 32 |
keloyd Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:46:04pm |
This is the first I've ever heard of 'pretraumatic' stress disorder. They also mentioned 35% of suicides are predeployment. This is the first I've heard of this ever. Anyone have data or links to other wars? other precedents?
Left of center or not, NPR tries very hard to do a good job...unlike certain other news outlets.
| 33 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:46:30pm |
re: #25 cliffster
It sounds like they don't want to have anything to do with tough questions.
That's what psychologists do- they ask tough questions, so I don't think that's it. Rather I think it's that the military likely wants the answers to stay in their possession and they'll deal with some of these issues without the help of the FBI. In other words- it's a turf war.
| 34 |
subsailor68 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:46:48pm |
re: #29 Lawrence Schmerel
I should have said "is an alumni."
Well, actually, you should probably have said "is an alumnus".
(Just teasin'!)
;-)
| 35 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:46:52pm |
re: #26 Lawrence Schmerel
I imagine that Virginia Tech is very disappointed that Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan was an alumni.
And I think you could extrapolate that out into good American Muslims being disappointed that he was a muslim.
| 36 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:46:56pm |
re: #6 Alouette
Also, I'm very surprised that NPR is breaking this story.
I'm not. They've been covering Walter Reed for some time now. They have a lot of contacts there.
| 37 |
greygandalf Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:47:34pm |
The guy was a psychiatrist, so he knows how other psychiatrists think. I don't think it is too surprising he slipped past them.
| 38 |
cliffster Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:48:02pm |
re: #30 LudwigVanQuixote
Walter Reed is very infamous for mismanagement. I don't think it is the actual doctors who work there who are the problem generally. I'll bet that there were tons of reports that for whatever reasons, higher-ups refused to follow up properly.
Or maybe they did - by choosing to deploy him. Oh he doesn't like it here? Well let's send his ass to Iraq. That'll toughen him up.
| 39 |
lawhawk Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:48:30pm |
re: #32 keloyd
The suicide rates may or may not be any different than the general population when measuring age group to age group.
In any event, suicide rate is not relevant to the discussion of a guy who decided to murder his fellow soldiers en masse and which appears to have religious overtones - jihad, based on the alleged statement of Allahu Akbar, his attire earlier in the day, online postings attributed to him, and the report from the conference where he wigged people out over his religious statements.
| 40 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:49:05pm |
The higher ups may have thought Hasan was staging these pro-jihad tendencies to get out of his commitment, sort of a bloodthirsty variant of the Corporal Klinger tactic.
Frankly, that would have crossed my mind if I had been in their position.
| 41 |
greygandalf Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:49:20pm |
re: #38 cliffster
Or maybe they did - by choosing to deploy him. Oh he doesn't like it here? Well let's send his ass to Iraq. That'll toughen him up.
So going to Iraq is a punishment? I don't think the soldiers over there are going to like that logic.
| 42 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:49:21pm |
If you're worried about someone, there is almost always someone you can talk to about them. You are not a bad person for trying to help. You are not betraying anyone's trust or making any kind of accusation.
| 43 |
The Sanity Inspector Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:50:12pm |
How is a person or a world unmade or unformed? First, by being deformed. And following the deforming is the collapsing. The tenuous balance is broken. Insanity is induced easily under the name of the higher sanity. Then the little candle that is in each head is blown out on the pretext that the great cosmic light can better be seen without it.
-- R. A. Lafferty
| 44 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:50:46pm |
re: #38 cliffster
Or maybe they did - by choosing to deploy him. Oh he doesn't like it here? Well let's send his ass to Iraq. That'll toughen him up.
You have a point. I could see that as a possibility.
In general, a staff physician is not someone who just gets rotated to the front - particularly a psychiatrist.
I would not be surprised if they wanted to make him some one else's problem.
| 45 |
researchok Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:50:47pm |
Seems to me there is a breakdown in reporting or in the handling of reports dealing with potential violence.
Hasan was clearly psycho.
There were also enough enough red flags to warrant further investigation. At least one somebody somewhere screwed up and that has to be reviewed as well.
| 46 |
cliffster Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:50:53pm |
re: #41 greygandalf
So going to Iraq is a punishment? I don't think the soldiers over there are going to like that logic.
He apparently thought it was. My apologies for implying that that would be the general case.
| 47 |
subsailor68 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:50:54pm |
re: #39 lawhawk
The suicide rates may or may not be any different than the general population when measuring age group to age group.
In any event, suicide rate is not relevant to the discussion of a guy who decided to murder his fellow soldiers en masse and which appears to have religious overtones - jihad, based on the alleged statement of Allahu Akbar, his attire earlier in the day, online postings attributed to him, and the report from the conference where he wigged people out over his religious statements.
And giving away his possessions - I assume that's been verified. (It'd be my luck it hasn't been.) That sounds like he had a premeditated plan, and that it was at least partially motivated by his religious beliefs.
| 48 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:51:52pm |
re: #37 greygandalf
The guy was a psychiatrist, so he knows how other psychiatrists think. I don't think it is too surprising he slipped past them.
Maybe it's just me, but if I went to a psychology seminar and instead found a religious revival, I would have questions concerning the psychologist leading such an event. For me, it shows a lack of separating faith and science in a professional situation, and I wouldn't doubt it's what disturbed his colleagues.
| 50 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:52:20pm |
That he gave a lecture on the Koran in a circumstance where it would not be expected is not conclusive. However, the fact that a member of the audience made a point of disagreeing with him is telling. An interesting aspect of Islam is that it has no hierarchy. It leaves a wide opening for someone like R. Spencer to say, "All Muslims must believe thus." Kudos to the one who raised his hand.
| 52 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:52:39pm |
(speculation alert)
It sounds like he had found his meal ticket in the Army - school was paid for; job was secure. He doesn't sound like someone who was very motivated professionally.
| 53 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:52:41pm |
re: #40 Shiplord Kirel
The higher ups may have thought Hasan was staging these pro-jihad tendencies to get out of his commitment, sort of a bloodthirsty variant of the Corporal Klinger tactic.
Frankly, that would have crossed my mind if I had been in their position.
Funny- I was thinking about Klinger earlier.
| 54 |
lawhawk Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:53:04pm |
re: #44 LudwigVanQuixote
A clarification, he was not shipped to Iraq, but to Fort Hood. It was anticipated that he'd be deployed overseas, but that was at some indeterminate point in the future - no word in reports I've seen as to a timeline.
How long was he at Fort Hood, and why was he promoted when there were issues arising from his discipline?
| 55 |
cliffster Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:53:41pm |
re: #51 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
This guy is a complete fucking nutcase.
That's some good psychiatric work, friend!
| 56 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:53:42pm |
re: #54 lawhawk
A clarification, he was not shipped to Iraq, but to Fort Hood. It was anticipated that he'd be deployed overseas, but that was at some indeterminate point in the future - no word in reports I've seen as to a timeline.
How long was he at Fort Hood, and why was he promoted when there were issues arising from his discipline?
They said he was transferred there earlier this year.
| 57 |
abolitionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:53:47pm |
So his colleagues have been instructed not to talk to the FBI or to anyone other than the military investigators. I wonder where that came from?
| 58 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:53:59pm |
re: #33 Sharmuta
That's what psychologists do- they ask tough questions, so I don't think that's it. Rather I think it's that the military likely wants the answers to stay in their possession and they'll deal with some of these issues without the help of the FBI. In other words- it's a turf war.
It's a turf war, I think, but it's also the higher-ups wanting to check their files, see what reports they received, see what they did about the reports, etc. etc., so that everyone can give the same story to the FBI or whoever else asks questions or investigates.
| 59 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:54:02pm |
re: #15 Happy4LA
So if people were fearful of being labeled "Islamaphobic" how do you stop a guy like this from carrying out his murderous act. Had someone done something sooner the guy would have felt "harrassed" just because he was a Muslim. I guess he proved everyone right on how peaceful Islam is. A disgrace to Islam, Jordan and America. May he rot in hell for the harm he's done.
Agree.
Also: I'm sorry, but "I was scared of being called an Islamaphobe" is a BS defense for not calling authority's attention to a problem child.
| 60 |
researchok Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:55:00pm |
re: #48 Sharmuta
Maybe it's just me, but if I went to a psychology seminar and instead found a religious revival, I would have questions concerning the psychologist leading such an event. For me, it shows a lack of separating faith and science in a professional situation, and I wouldn't doubt it's what disturbed his colleagues.
It's more than that.
If a psychiatrist gave a lecture on the Rapture, you can be sure it would have been severely dealt with within 15 minutes.
These seems to be a problem with reporting problems and an equal way of dealing with them.
| 61 |
greygandalf Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:55:13pm |
re: #57 abolitionist
So his colleagues have been instructed not to talk to the FBI or to anyone other than the military investigators. I wonder where that came from?
That seems a little odd. Elevating this to somehow "above" the FBI.
| 62 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:55:22pm |
re: #58 reine.de.tout
It's a turf war, I think, but it's also the higher-ups wanting to check their files, see what reports they received, see what they did about the reports, etc. etc., so that everyone can give the same story to the FBI or whoever else asks questions or investigates.
I agree with Ludwig there is a massive CYA campaign going on at Walter Reed today.
| 63 |
cliffster Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:56:07pm |
re: #61 greygandalf
That seems a little odd. Elevating this to somehow "above" the FBI.
THE FBI CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!
| 64 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:56:31pm |
re: #54 lawhawk
A clarification, he was not shipped to Iraq, but to Fort Hood. It was anticipated that he'd be deployed overseas, but that was at some indeterminate point in the future - no word in reports I've seen as to a timeline.
How long was he at Fort Hood, and why was he promoted when there were issues arising from his discipline?
Did he have discipline problems? I would not be surprised if he were in general quite by the rules in terms of his day to day. What this report at least is saying was that he was creepy and said some provocative things. However,that is not necessarily over the line.
As to shipped to Ft. Hood, that still fits with the whole, make him someone else's problem idea.
I don't know if that was the case. I am not saying for sure it was. However, it fits.
| 65 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:56:32pm |
re: #50 wrenchwench
That he gave a lecture on the Koran in a circumstance where it would not be expected is not conclusive. However, the fact that a member of the audience made a point of disagreeing with him is telling. An interesting aspect of Islam is that it has no hierarchy. It leaves a wide opening for someone like R. Spencer to say, "All Muslims must believe thus." Kudos to the one who raised his hand.
That's one characteristic of Spencer's that drives me nuts. He will actually argue with progressive Islamic scholars, claiming that their interpretations are invalid.
| 66 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:57:08pm |
| 67 |
abbyadams Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:57:26pm |
re: #35 recusancy
Exactly. I feel very sorry for the good American Muslims today. Their religion causes them to self-identify, and I fear that people will be hurt because of it.
| 68 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:57:30pm |
| 70 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:58:03pm |
re: #61 greygandalf
That seems a little odd. Elevating this to somehow "above" the FBI.
They really can't. If the FBI decides to push, the military will have difficulty out maneuvering the investigation. Also, it is only the local military at Walter Reed. The Lt. General down in Ft. Hood is likely to not take well to nonsense.
| 71 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 12:59:14pm |
And once again, in the hubbub here I fear we we are going to miss a major lesson about our armed forces; that our soldiers, saliors and airmen are going to need a lot more care if we are going to continue to subject them to the levels of stress that are part and parcel of their daily routine.
Care. As in health care. Physical and mental health care.
| 72 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:00:18pm |
Yikes. Still don't believe it's important, Albusteve?
| 73 |
keloyd Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:00:32pm |
re: #39 lawhawk
I agree with the point in the NPR clip - suicide and this mass murder are loosely related. They both connect to the mental health of our military. The connection my be loose, but there are more suicides to make a study, to interpret, and to serve as data. This murderer's mental process is likely similar to others who commit suicide but do not have the religious trappings to push him into taking others out with him. There is also vague evidence of other suicide bombers having terminal cancer at higher rates than the general population (I wish I could cite, heard on NPR probably) - so suicide and "if I'm going anyway, for reasons of my own, I'm taking some kaffirs with me" is relevant.
Still, he is as incompetent as he is evil to still be alive.
| 74 |
karmic_inquisitor Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:01:00pm |
Drive by but here is my take on what is shaking out on this guy -
He is as much a Jihadi as Al Sharpton is a humanitarian.
This is an IslamoPosseur who seems to have been in a downward spiral for some time, and who couldn't cope with the simple issues in his mediocre life.
The whole Islamic thing became a way for him to segment himself from everyone else and then demonize "the other."
The real problem in my mind is that the Islamic cul de sac that he parked himself (and then cultivated a persecution complex in) was made possible by a culture of extra cautious tolerance. The Army does not put up with racism and bigotry, especially regarding Islam. Perhaps that was why many simply skirted the issue. It may also what gave this lunatic a safe haven for indulging himself in unwarranted self pity.
The issue of deployment brought it to a head for this cowardly under-performer. That was when he decided to go "full native" with the Jihad thing.
This is not a profile of a Jihadi - it is the profile of an indulged self absorbed cad.
| 76 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:02:27pm |
re: #38 cliffster
Or maybe they did - by choosing to deploy him. Oh he doesn't like it here? Well let's send his ass to Iraq. That'll toughen him up.
I never thought of that. huh.
| 78 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:03:17pm |
People go postal. Some are fascists or have delusions of grandeur/severe narcissistic problems. Some are self styled libertarians. Some are paranoid schizophrenics. Some are marxists. Some are people that nobody ever really noticed or bothered to ask what they thought about stuff because they felt that there was just something a little bit wrong with them. And some are muslims. These types of incidents occur with alarming regularity all over the world. In the UK, in Tasmania, in France and Germany, in Russia, in Japan. Everywhere where there are people there are some men, because they are usually men, who creep everyone out a bit and finally decide that they are not getting enough credit/respect/whatever and decide that the best solution is an extended suicide where they get their revenge.
There are warning signs. There is a reason that FBI was looking at this guy. We just have to get a lot better at figuring out how to stop it before it comes to the point where the guns come out so to speak.
These people are dangerous, nasty and violent. They have absolutely no regard for what happens to other people, in fact they most often want to kill as many as possible. I am sure there are psychiatrists who could tell you a lot about how they are created and how to identify them. But my point is this: the problem society has is that we have no way of dealing with people who are bent on killing others like this today. Regardless of whether they work alone or in tightly knit pairs (Columbine) there is no real easy way of getting inside, nothing to infiltrate. Some of them show outward signs, like this guy, big flashing warning signs. But we still have some way to go before we can actually nip them in the bud, make sure that they are managed in a way that they pose as small a threat as possible to their colleagues/fellow students/fellow men.
In this case his religion wasn't a prerequisite for what he did. It certainly affected the way he justified it in various postings, it affected how he went about before he did it and what he said (possibly) while doing it. But he remains a vile, disgusting and highly disturbed person and someone who isn't fit to be part of society and that is the real root of this action and nothing else.
| 79 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:03:28pm |
re: #72 WindUpBird
Yikes. Still don't believe it's important, Albusteve?
It is important for two reasons:
1. It tells us why he did it, and it gives us an understanding of what happened. It does also highlight that jihadis really are evil people. There are those who are apologists for them who should just get a clue.
2. It is important, because it will likely highlight a stunning lack of command responsibility and cause some things to get cleaned up.
It is not however:
1. Evidence of sleeper cells or larger conspiracies.
2. Anything at all to do with President Obama.
3. Any of the other self serving things that people will try to turn this in to.
| 80 |
cliffster Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:03:46pm |
re: #77 Ericus58
If it quacks like a duck...
I like Mandy's comment earlier - "Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining"
| 81 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:04:29pm |
Am I out of line to suggest that at some point any sane Muslim should start asking "tough questions" about their religion? Like, should I be an athiest or a Buddist or something other than a Muslim?
I am really begining to wonder about Islam, and the violence it perpetuates on man-kind. No way could I belong to a religion that some how or another causes so much death around the world.
This shits getting old.
Rant off.
| 82 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:04:37pm |
re: #74 karmic_inquisitor
This is not a profile of a Jihadi - it is the profile of an indulged self absorbed cad.
I have met several people who aren't necessarily Islamic, Christian, or even religious, who this guy is starting to remind me of.
| 83 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:05:01pm |
The 13 people killed when an Army psychiatrist allegedly opened fire on fellow soldiers at Fort Hood, Texas, included a pregnant woman who was preparing to return home, a man who quit a furniture company job to join the military about a year ago, a newlywed who had served in Iraq and a woman who had vowed to take on Osama bin Laden after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Here is a look at some of the victims.
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
| 84 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:05:28pm |
re: #82 Gearhead
I have met several people who aren't necessarily Islamic, Christian, or even religious, who this guy is starting to remind me of.
The same underlying pathology can take on a variety of forms based on the patient's personality, culture, and general circumstances.
| 86 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:05:37pm |
| 88 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:05:46pm |
re: #81 filetandrelease
Am I out of line to suggest that at some point any sane Muslim should start asking "tough questions" about their religion? Like, should I be an athiest or a Buddist or something other than a Muslim?
I am really begining to wonder about Islam, and the violence it perpetuates on man-kind. No way could I belong to a religion that some how or another causes so much death around the world.
This shits getting old.
Rant off.
Based on your logic his only option then would be atheist.
| 89 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:06:41pm |
re: #88 recusancy
Based on your logic his only option then would be atheist.
Buddhism inspires violence?
| 90 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:06:56pm |
re: #86 solomonpanting
Might be time to retire that stereotype?
No I like it. A month doesn't pass without something going missing for me and until they clean up their act I am going to go with "postal".
(Actually I was just doing a bit of stream of consciousness so you will have to forgive me)
| 92 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:07:05pm |
re: #81 filetandrelease
Am I out of line to suggest that at some point any sane Muslim should start asking "tough questions" about their religion? Like, should I be an athiest or a Buddist or something other than a Muslim?
I am really begining to wonder about Islam, and the violence it perpetuates on man-kind. No way could I belong to a religion that some how or another causes so much death around the world.
This shits getting old.
Rant off.
One point six BILLION muslims in the world. They're all responsible! Convert them!
/
| 93 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:07:13pm |
re: #81 filetandrelease
Millions seem to have lived its principles in peace. You could apply your line of thinking to any institution (not just religion) and it would be just as invalid.
| 94 |
cliffster Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:07:14pm |
re: #82 Gearhead
I have met several people who aren't necessarily Islamic, Christian, or even religious, who this guy is starting to remind me of.
Good Lord, I've never met anyone that reminds me of this guy, and I hope I never do.
| 95 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:07:19pm |
re: #71 ralphieboy
And once again, in the hubbub here I fear we we are going to miss a major lesson about our armed forces; that our soldiers, saliors and airmen are going to need a lot more care if we are going to continue to subject them to the levels of stress that are part and parcel of their daily routine.
Care. As in health care. Physical and mental health care.
Uh - this guy seems to have had not only health care, but the premiere military hospital in the entire nation at his disposal, ready to render any sort of treatment he might have asked for. And he evaded both help and diagnosis.
I don't see how this case highlights anything even slightly related to your post.
| 97 |
cliffster Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:07:42pm |
| 98 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:07:46pm |
re: #84 Guanxi88
The same underlying pathology can take on a variety of forms based on the patient's personality, culture, and general circumstances.
There's already a little fire smoldering somewhere in this kind of person, and religion, politics, or even football is like gasoline.
| 99 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:07:54pm |
re: #89 Guanxi88
Buddhists have been violent in the past. Yes. Tribalism is tribalism.
| 100 |
SteveC Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:07:55pm |
re: #80 cliffster
I like Mandy's comment earlier - "Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining"
Mandy's good at cutting right through the bullshit. She cuts better than some of the surgeons I know.
| 101 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:08:17pm |
re: #93 bosforus
Millions seem to have lived its principles in peace. You could apply your line of thinking to any institution (not just religion) and it would be just as invalid.
Correction. Billions.
| 102 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:08:38pm |
re: #89 Guanxi88
Buddhism inspires violence?
WellLLlll...there is the Aum Shinri Kyo cult. But it's only partially buddhism.
| 103 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:08:41pm |
What I mean is that a certain type of psycho is always looking for a justification for them to avenge themselves for some perceived wrong doing. They were fired. Or bypassed for promotion. Or some woman left them (by far the most common). They grasp at whatever they have at their disposal.
| 104 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:08:46pm |
re: #88 recusancy
Based on your logic his only option then would be atheist.
Yeah, those pesky Buddist are a real threat, between them and bearded varments in PA, I don't know which is scarier.
| 105 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:09:04pm |
re: #94 cliffster
Good Lord, I've never met anyone that reminds me of this guy, and I hope I never do.
You see, there was this guy down the hall my junior year. Had a thing about knives...
| 106 |
keloyd Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:09:11pm |
re: #88 recusancy
As a Presbyterian, I really shouldn't be talking out of school, but the Buddhists cause and participate in less warlike behavior than Christians, Muslims, Jews, and certainly athiests...not that there's anything wrong with that.
| 107 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:09:20pm |
re: #99 recusancy
Buddhists have been violent in the past. Yes. Tribalism is tribalism.
Reluctant up-ding for a valid broader point.
| 108 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:09:28pm |
Velez, 21, of Chicago, was pregnant and preparing to return home. A friend of Velez's, Sasha Ramos, described her as a fun-loving person who wrote poetry and loved dancing.
"She was like my sister," Ramos, 21, said. "She was the most fun and happy person you could know. She never did anything wrong to anybody."
Family members said Velez had recently returned from deployment in Iraq and had sought a lifelong career in the Army.
"She was a very happy girl and sweet," said her father, Juan Guillermo Velez, his eyes red from crying. "She had the spirit of a child."
Ramos, who also served briefly in the military, couldn't reconcile that her friend was killed in this country — just after leaving a war zone.
"It makes it a lot harder," she said. "This is not something a soldier expects — to have someone in our uniform go start shooting at us.
| 109 |
subsailor68 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:09:50pm |
re: #78 enoughalready
Interesting post. Just one small quibble:
Some are self styled libertarians.
Generally speaking, libertarians are more into leaving other folks alone, as opposed to blowing them up.
;-)
| 110 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:09:54pm |
OK, Shabbos is coming up
I have to go.
I wish you all the very best. Have a great weekend and smile and be happy if you can.
| 111 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:09:59pm |
re: #95 SixDegrees
Uh - this guy seems to have had not only health care, but the premiere military hospital in the entire nation at his disposal, ready to render any sort of treatment he might have asked for. And he evaded both help and diagnosis.
I don't see how this case highlights anything even slightly related to your post.
Having the hospital at his disposal doesn't mean he was getting regular therapy. Doesn't mean anyone was examining him or putting together warning signs. I think that's what Ralphie meant.
| 112 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:10:06pm |
re: #97 cliffster
I kill you in the name of a higher plane of existence!
Enlightenment - it's a zero-sum game. Grab your piece before somebody else gets it.
| 113 |
Gus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:10:33pm |
re: #85 checked08
Your post will be deleted.
However, that's a false report. Nidal Hasan did not advise any transition team. Nidal Hasan was only a participant in GWU's e Homeland Security Policy Institute Presidential Transition Task Force and his name can be seen on page 29 in this PDF:
[Link: www.gwumc.edu...]
| 114 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:10:38pm |
re: #106 keloyd
As a Presbyterian, I really shouldn't be talking out of school, but the Buddhists cause and participate in less warlike behavior than Christians, Muslims, Jews, and certainly athiests...not that there's anything wrong with that.
Find me a warlike Deist. :D
| 115 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:10:42pm |
re: #81 filetandrelease
Am I out of line to suggest that at some point any sane Muslim should start asking "tough questions" about their religion? Like, should I be an athiest or a Buddist or something other than a Muslim?
I am really begining to wonder about Islam, and the violence it perpetuates on man-kind. No way could I belong to a religion that some how or another causes so much death around the world.
This shits getting old.
Rant off.
Although people seem to be downdinging your comment I agree. This is a systemic problem, particularly with Islam. More Muslims should stand up and speak out. Religion, like anything else is a service industry. If Muslims refuse to attend Mosques that praise Palestinian terrorism then those Mosques will have to adapt or go out of business. Anyone praising Palestinian terrorism, killing abortion doctors or "watering the tree of liberty" should be immediately removed from military service or government employment. Unless Muslims take personal responsibility for the Mosques they attend of the groups they associate with nothing is going to change.
| 116 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:10:55pm |
re: #112 SixDegrees
Enlightenment - it's a zero-sum game. Grab your piece before somebody else gets it.
If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him before he kills you.
| 117 |
The Sanity Inspector Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:11:01pm |
re: #15 Happy4LA
So if people were fearful of being labeled "Islamaphobic" how do you stop a guy like this from carrying out his murderous act. Had someone done something sooner the guy would have felt "harrassed" just because he was a Muslim. I guess he proved everyone right on how peaceful Islam is. A disgrace to Islam, Jordan and America. May he rot in hell for the harm he's done.
The acts of this jihadist have nothing to do with Islam, but suspecting him of violent tendencies would have been islamophobic. A nice catch-22 .
| 120 |
Zeroisanumber Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:11:58pm |
Meanwhile, in Iran...
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
| 121 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:12:03pm |
re: #109 subsailor68
Interesting post. Just one small quibble:
Some are self styled libertarians.
Generally speaking, libertarians are more into leaving other folks alone, as opposed to blowing them up.
;-)
That's why I said self styled libertarians. I would argue that the Unabomber certainly would fit the profile I described and that his ideas were largely centered around a libertarian core. You may disagree.
| 122 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:13:02pm |
I understand there are billions of peaceful Muslims in the world. But I also realize that each day, Islamist commit violence against people of all walks of life, all over the world.
I don't know, personally, it isn't for me.
| 123 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:13:40pm |
re: #111 WindUpBird
Having the hospital at his disposal doesn't mean he was getting regular therapy. Doesn't mean anyone was examining him or putting together warning signs. I think that's what Ralphie meant.
You can't force mental health care on someone who doesn't want it. Well, the Soviets did, but that didn't work out well in terms of outcomes.
| 124 |
greygandalf Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:14:03pm |
re: #121 enoughalready
That's why I said self styled libertarians. I would argue that the Unabomber certainly would fit the profile I described and that his ideas were largely centered around a libertarian core. You may disagree.
As far as I remember the unabomber was anti-technology. I don't think libertarians fall in that camp.
| 125 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:14:05pm |
Yes, Buddhism, Amish-ism (?), etc.. definitely are of the more peaceful variety of religion. I guess I was just pushing back on the suggestion that Islam is inherently evil and they all need to convert to Christianity as many Christianists believe.
| 126 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:14:11pm |
re: #71 ralphieboy
And once again, in the hubbub here I fear we we are going to miss a major lesson about our armed forces; that our soldiers, saliors and airmen are going to need a lot more care if we are going to continue to subject them to the levels of stress that are part and parcel of their daily routine.
Care. As in health care. Physical and mental health care.
The only thing we are missing is the fact that this guy was giving off ref flag signals for months. The only thing we are missing is the ability to cut the shit about the diversity and realize and understand the most evident sources of terrorism. The only thing we are missing is a administration that is capable of standing up to the foundational cultures of this terrorism and let them know that we are not going to be spending all out time and money kissing their ass so we don't accidently insult someone.
Memorize what I said and don't miss it.
| 127 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:14:44pm |
re: #102 WindUpBird
The Mongols were Buddhists. Tibet remained a violent feudal society long after they converted to Buddhism.
| 128 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:14:53pm |
| 129 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:14:56pm |
re: #122 filetandrelease
It's people who commit violence against other people. They know no religion, race, sex, ideology. We are cruel to each other- daily.
| 130 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:14:58pm |
re: #115 Killgore Trout
Thank you.
This is a very serious problem that humanity faces. IMO, it will have to solved from within.
| 131 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:15:14pm |
re: #116 Guanxi88
If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him before he kills you.
Buddhism as it would be practiced in the Klingon Empire.
"When a monk dies, everyone below him moves up in rank."
| 132 |
subsailor68 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:15:16pm |
re: #121 enoughalready
That's why I said self styled libertarians. I would argue that the Unabomber certainly would fit the profile I described and that his ideas were largely centered around a libertarian core. You may disagree.
Yeah, I was just kinda teasin' because I had this mental image of libertarians running around in circles ranting and raving, when most of 'em are too mellow to even get off the couch. "Self-styled" is certainly valid - so nope - won't disagree with ya.
| 133 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:15:23pm |
re: #106 keloyd
How are atheists warlike? Was there some great war for atheism that I missed out on?
| 134 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:15:50pm |
re: #104 filetandrelease
Yeah, those pesky Buddist are a real threat, between them and bearded varments in PA, I don't know which is scarier.
Seriously. Read up on Sri Lanka.
| 135 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:15:54pm |
re: #115 Killgore Trout
The reason I downdinged it is that I don't believe Muslims in one part of the world (again, over a billion and a half of them) are responsible or compelled to ask tough questions about muslims in a completely different part of the world. Lebanon is different from Indonesia is different from Palestine is different from Iran is different from the Phillipines.
Locally, sure. If you attend a militant mosque, you're part of the problem. But there seems to be a vibe that all muslims are responsible for all muslims, no matter the circumstances. That seems to be to be a wildly unfair burden for the average moderate muslim, and invites discrimination and promotes paranoid tribalism.
| 136 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:16:00pm |
re: #126 Walter L. Newton
...Memorize what I said and don't miss it.
Except for the spelling errors...
| 137 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:16:10pm |
re: #127 Killgore Trout
The Mongols were Buddhists. Tibet remained a violent feudal society long after they converted to Buddhism.
Mongols were a mixed bag - you had buddhism, shamanism, various folk-faiths, and even the occasional streak of islam - all rolled into one big, happy horde.
Tibetans were a pretty rough bunch, but I attribute that to geography - mountain folk tend to be rough around the edges.
| 138 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:16:21pm |
re: #133 Conservative Moonbat
How are atheists warlike? Was there some great war for atheism that I missed out on?
The War on Christmas?
| 139 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:16:30pm |
re: #124 greygandalf
As far as I remember the unabomber was anti-technology. I don't think libertarians fall in that camp.
Again. Self-styled. If you read the ramblings of his manifesto a pretty clear vision emerges of a post-democratic society in the libertarian style. There were certain aspects of his ideas (among them a rather extreme Luddite approach to technology indeed). I was talking about his political viewpoints in general rather than specifically his hatred for all things technological.
| 140 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:16:47pm |
re: #111 WindUpBird
Having the hospital at his disposal doesn't mean he was getting regular therapy. Doesn't mean anyone was examining him or putting together warning signs. I think that's what Ralphie meant.
Thanks, WUBster, that's what I meant. And it could well be that the place is full of guys who are just on edge as him, all in need of immediate aid and therapy before this scenario repeats itself with another tragic nutcase with another overlooked series of symptoms.
We are pushing these guys to the breaking point, and we have just seen the first serious cracks.
And I do grow concerned with our armed forces when they cannot even seem to take proper care of their honored dead at Arlington Cemetery, much less the walking wounded populating its bases.
| 141 |
keloyd Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:16:50pm |
Libertarians are a slippery bunch. They have diverse motivations for what exactly why they want all that freedom. Some just like low taxes and small government. Others are religious outliers who want to withdraw from society are prominent among the most activist libertarians. The same goes for militia gun nut types. I've seen lots of compelling but not certain evidence that Ron Paul was cozy with this lot in the pre-internet years. He had a newsletter with lots of that sort of nonsense in it, but few or no copies remain, and it is impossible to sort rumors from truth on this.
| 142 |
EastSider Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:16:59pm |
| 143 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:17:04pm |
re: #133 Conservative Moonbat
How are atheists warlike? Was there some great war for atheism that I missed out on?
It ran from about 1919 till the late 80's. It was called the USSR.
| 144 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:17:11pm |
re: #133 Conservative Moonbat
How are atheists warlike? Was there some great war for atheism that I missed out on?
Russia under Stalin comes to mind.
| 145 |
greygandalf Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:17:17pm |
re: #133 Conservative Moonbat
How are atheists warlike? Was there some great war for atheism that I missed out on?
Mao wasn't exactly a peaceful person.
| 146 |
Yankee Division Son Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:17:40pm |
OT - BREAKING: ACORN’s New Orleans Office Raided by Louisiana Attorney General
Attorney General Buddy Caldwell has served a search warrant at the ACORNoffice at 2609 Canal Street, according to Tammi Arender Herring, a spokeswoman with the office.
Investigators in khaki pants and polo shirts loaded several dozen computers and other electronic items into an SUV. They are also carrying records out of the building on handcarts.
The large office building sits at the corner of Dorgenois and Canal. ACORN staffers were given no notice that a search would be conducted today, Herring said.
| 147 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:17:47pm |
re: #129 Sharmuta
It's people who commit violence against other people. They know no religion, race, sex, ideology. We are cruel to each other- daily.
No doubt, but remove those killed by Islamist, and how many less deaths a day are there? What is the percentage? I do not know, but suspect it higher than most believe.
Ignoring the elephant in the closest won't make it go away.
| 148 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:17:49pm |
re: #131 SixDegrees
Actually... In Tibet before the current Dalai Lama was born Dalai Lamas had an unusually short life span.
| 149 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:17:56pm |
re: #81 filetandrelease
Am I out of line to suggest that at some point any sane Muslim should start asking "tough questions" about their religion? Like, should I be an athiest or a Buddist or something other than a Muslim?
I am really begining to wonder about Islam, and the violence it perpetuates on man-kind. No way could I belong to a religion that some how or another causes so much death around the world.
This shits getting old.
Rant off.
I would agree with you if you just toned down the width of the brush.
It is asinine to deny a very obvious and violent streak in Islam. It is asinine to pretend that acts like this are not glorified by very many, very fanatical people around the world.
However,
It is equally asinine to assume that this is the sum total of Islam, or that all Muslims see their religion in that light. Every religious group has its whack jobs. If you are part of that religion, but not a whack job, then of necessity, you do not see the whack jobs as representing you, or your faith.
For example, most Jews do not consider Naturei Carta to be a fair representation of Judaism. Most Christians do not see those who dance with snakes and drink poison as a fair representation of Christianity.
It would never cross their minds to see it that way. It is as if those types are actually of a different faith.
Now also to be fair, there are a lot of very unpleasant Muslim groups who spend a lot of money promoting those awful views. They do indoctrinate. They do gain converts. The distinction to make is between the distorted and evil use of Islam and everyday Muslim people themselves.
| 150 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:18:16pm |
re: #144 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Russia under Stalin comes to mind.
Yeah, that war with Germany sure was atheistic?
| 151 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:18:17pm |
re: #141 keloyd
Libertarians are a slippery bunch. They have diverse motivations for what exactly why they want all that freedom. Some just like low taxes and small government. Others are religious outliers who want to withdraw from society are prominent among the most activist libertarians. The same goes for militia gun nut types. I've seen lots of compelling but not certain evidence that Ron Paul was cozy with this lot in the pre-internet years. He had a newsletter with lots of that sort of nonsense in it, but few or no copies remain, and it is impossible to sort rumors from truth on this.
The Libertarian Party is and will always be the party of the future. Meaning... major fail.
| 152 |
Bob Levin Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:20:31pm |
Maybe there are some conclusions it's best to jump to.
| 153 |
seamonkey Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:20:31pm |
re: #137 Guanxi88
Mongols were a mixed bag - you had buddhism, shamanism, various folk-faiths, and even the occasional streak of islam - all rolled into one big, happy horde.
Tibetans were a pretty rough bunch, but I attribute that to geography - mountain folk tend to be rough around the edges.
Genghis Khan was not a Buddhist. The Mongols were indeed a mixed bag, suprisingly religiously tolerant, hosting debates between faiths etc.
Tibetans: You'd be warlike too if your neighbors were Mongolia and China.
| 154 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:21:49pm |
re: #152 Bob Levin
Maybe there are some conclusions it's best to jump to.
What is to be gained by haste here? He's not going to do any more shooting.
| 155 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:21:51pm |
re: #149 LudwigVanQuixote
I understand, it is an emotional appeal on my part. Islam, must solve this problem. My hope is with the woman of Islam.
| 156 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:21:58pm |
re: #138 Sharmuta
The War on Christmas?
Oh no, don't start that yet! Maybe we can go this year without the "War on Christmas" discussion. Unlikely.
| 157 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:22:00pm |
re: #153 seamonkey
Genghis Khan was not a Buddhist. The Mongols were indeed a mixed bag, suprisingly religiously tolerant, hosting debates between faiths etc.
Tibetans: You'd be warlike too if your neighbors were Mongolia and China.
It's an odd thing that one of the most feared and warlike peoples of comparatively recent history also practiced a religious tolerance that puts most peaceful and secular socieites to shame. A very odd bunch.
| 159 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:22:27pm |
re: #143 Guanxi88
It ran from about 1919 till the late 80's. It was called the USSR.
Yeah, but they were atheists because of Marxism which was much more responsible for any warlike tendencies. The fact that they were atheists didn't make them warlike. The fact that they were a totalitarian Communist regime did.
| 160 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:22:37pm |
re: #155 filetandrelease
I understand, it is an emotional appeal on my part. Islam, must solve this problem. My hope is with the woman of Islam.
Mine too. Educated professional women would make a giant difference.
| 161 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:22:38pm |
re: #150 enoughalready
Yeah, that war with Germany sure was atheistic?
I was referring more to the various purges that occured inside of Russia during the 20s and 30s, and the then the Iron curtain and its control of Eastern Europe after WWII.
| 162 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:22:44pm |
re: #149 LudwigVanQuixote
It is equally asinine to assume that this is the sum total of Islam, or that all Muslims see their religion in that light. Every religious group has its whack jobs. If you are part of that religion, but not a whack job, then of necessity, you do not see the whack jobs as representing you, or your faith.
For example, most Jews do not consider Naturei Carta to be a fair representation of Judaism. Most Christians do not see those who dance with snakes and drink poison as a fair representation of Christianity.
I'm speaking from a Christian point of view, but the people who are the best representations of their religions are often the quietest about it. They do a lot of good things, motivated by their faith, but don't crow about it and don't want any fanfare for it. No squeaky wheel, therefore no publicity.
| 163 |
keloyd Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:22:48pm |
re: #133 Conservative Moonbat
I was thinking of communists, Pol Pot, and Hitler as the no-religion population. Hitler is nominally fascist, but only used religious references in a light and literary way, and used Christianity as window dressing when he found it useful. He really cherry-picked from fascism, socialism, and tribalism, so he is tricky to put in a pigeon hole, maybe like this new murderer. Anyway, it addressed an exceedingly broad question, so I stand by my broadly general response.
Deists indeed!
| 164 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:23:13pm |
re: #126 Walter L. Newton
The only thing we are missing is the fact that this guy was giving off ref flag signals for months. The only thing we are missing is the ability to cut the shit about the diversity and realize and understand the most evident sources of terrorism. The only thing we are missing is a administration that is capable of standing up to the foundational cultures of this terrorism and let them know that we are not going to be spending all out time and money kissing their ass so we don't accidently insult someone.
Memorize what I said and don't miss it.
Yes, he was giving off signals. You seem to think that they were overlooked for fear of offending him with a diagnosis. They could've been just overlooked for having other priorities and being overworked.
And at the same time, the fellow claimed he was being "persecuted" for his beliefs. That does not jive with your line of reasoning, unless you accept the argumet that Islam is inherently evil and violent.
And if you accept that, then be prepared to write of one-quarter of humanity. I am not ready to do that just yet.
| 165 |
SteveC Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:23:23pm |
re: #146 Yankee Division Son
ACORN staffers were given no notice that a search would be conducted today, Herring said.
NO fair! AG's office didn't read the memo!
| 166 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:23:25pm |
re: #157 Guanxi88
It's an odd thing that one of the most feared and warlike peoples of comparatively recent history also practiced a religious tolerance that puts most peaceful and secular socieites to shame. A very odd bunch.
Rome, too.
| 167 |
seamonkey Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:23:36pm |
re: #145 greygandalf
Mao wasn't exactly a peaceful person.
Communism and totalitarianism, atheism is incidental to this (a Church is a competing system of control so the government doesn't want it.)
| 168 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:23:46pm |
re: #152 Bob Levin
Maybe there are some conclusions it's best to jump to.
QUICKLY! Make shit up before the facts come and get us!
| 169 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:23:53pm |
re: #150 enoughalready
Yeah, that war with Germany sure was atheistic?
I thnk you'll find that atheism was an official doctrinal plank of Soviet communism, and was pursued most aggressively wherever possible. This explains the absolute destruction of the Church in the early days of the Bolshevik Revolution, a pattern common to revolutionaries of the twentieth century.
And the war with the Reich? Hitler started that one.
| 170 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:23:53pm |
re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote
Liberalism. The need a dose. Only problem is, we can't force it on them by the barrel of a gun.
| 171 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:24:04pm |
re: #145 greygandalf
Mao wasn't exactly a peaceful person.
His atheism didn't make him warlike. The fact that he was a militant totalitarian Communist did.
| 172 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:24:20pm |
re: #167 seamonkey
Communism and totalitarianism, atheism is incidental to this (a Church is a competing system of control so the government doesn't want it.)
Exxxactly. Forcing churches underground is different from voluntary athiesm!
| 173 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:24:53pm |
re: #162 Gearhead
I'm speaking from a Christian point of view, but the people who are the best representations of their religions are often the quietest about it. They do a lot of good things, motivated by their faith, but don't crow about it and don't want any fanfare for it. No squeaky wheel, therefore no publicity.
Good point. I would only add though,
For certain, that is the Jewish view of it too.
I have it on good authority that it is the official Bhuddist, Hindu and Muslim view as well.
| 174 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:25:12pm |
re: #166 Gearhead
Rome, too.
Romans, though, one can sort of account for their tolerance. Mongols, though, it comes as a shock, as one doesn't expect quasi-nomadic peoples to be so damned urbane
| 176 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:26:07pm |
re: #173 LudwigVanQuixote
Good point. I would only add though,
For certain, that is the Jewish view of it too.
I have it on good authority that it is the official Bhuddist, Hindu and Muslim view as well.
Good point as well. I was not trying to be exclusive; just trying to talk from my own experience.
| 177 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:26:12pm |
re: #166 Gearhead
Rome, too.
Buddhis warrior monks were a standard fixture in medieval Japan, and several of the most famous warlords were monks as well. And many of them were also homosexual...
All of which reminds on that any person's psychology and motivations come from a variety of sources, religion is only one of them.
| 178 |
subsailor68 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:26:23pm |
re: #151 Walter L. Newton
The Libertarian Party is and will always be the party of the future. Meaning... major fail.
Hi Walter! LOL! Years ago I read a book called "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do" by (IIRC) a guy named Peter McWilliams. One basic tenet was that you should be able to do whatever you choose, so long as it doesn't physically harm another person. One example was that it would be wrong to prohibit another person from painting his house purple - simply on the notion that it might lower your own property values.
So, I went out and painted my house purple. Got the snot kicked out of me by a gang of unruly neighbors.
Got rid of the book.
| 179 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:26:51pm |
re: #135 WindUpBird
The reason I downdinged it is that I don't believe Muslims in one part of the world (again, over a billion and a half of them) are responsible or compelled to ask tough questions about muslims in a completely different part of the world. Lebanon is different from Indonesia is different from Palestine is different from Iran is different from the Phillipines.
Locally, sure. If you attend a militant mosque, you're part of the problem. But there seems to be a vibe that all muslims are responsible for all muslims, no matter the circumstances. That seems to be to be a wildly unfair burden for the average moderate muslim, and invites discrimination and promotes paranoid tribalism.
I haven't picked up that vibe, and I wonder if you are assuming it exists. The actions Killgore talked about were very individual and local actions - don't attend a mosque that preaches jihad, don't praise or excuse terrorism, don't associate with those who do, and speak out against terrorism where appropriate.
These are the same things that pro-lifers like myself are expected to do with idiots who murder abortion doctors.
| 180 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:27:00pm |
re: #170 recusancy
Liberalism. The need a dose. Only problem is, we can't force it on them by the barrel of a gun.
Since 9/11, I have seen more brave and outspoken Muslim woman than men. It is just a personal observation with zero statistical analysis. But personally, it is about the only avenue of hope I have seen.
Some of these woman don't want to be under the foot anymore.
| 181 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:27:04pm |
re: #176 Gearhead
Good point as well. I was not trying to be exclusive; just trying to talk from my own experience.
I didn't mean to imply you were being exclusive. I am sorry.
| 182 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:27:12pm |
re: #135 WindUpBird
Of course I am speaking locally and personally. An American Muslim has no direct control over what is preached in Mecca. However, there is near universal support for groups like Hamas and Hezbollah in Islam all over the world. That's a serious problem. If enough Muslims took personal responsibility for their local Muslim community the problem could be solved. It's the same with Christianity. In the vast majority of churches you couldn't hear a sermon praising the killing of abortion doctors. The congregation would not tolerate it. That's why the killing of abortion doctors is correctly blamed blamed on fringe extremists, not Christianity as a whole.
| 183 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:27:16pm |
re: #177 ralphieboy
Buddhis warrior monks were a standard fixture in medieval Japan, and several of the most famous warlords were monks as well. And many of them were also homosexual...
All of which reminds on that any person's psychology and motivations come from a variety of sources, religion is only one of them.
Weird, but I'd forgotten the samurai, easily the most enduringly warlike group ever. And solidly buddhist. The punishment for being a samurai was that you'd reincarnate as one.
| 184 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:27:36pm |
re: #174 Guanxi88
...one doesn't expect quasi-nomadic peoples to be so damned urbane
T-shirt!
Wait... bumper sticker!
| 185 |
cliffster Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:27:40pm |
re: #178 subsailor68
I think you made that story up. You didn't paint your house purple. That shit never happened. ;)
| 186 |
seamonkey Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:27:46pm |
re: #174 Guanxi88
Romans, though, one can sort of account for their tolerance. Mongols, though, it comes as a shock, as one doesn't expect quasi-nomadic peoples to be so damned urbane
Maybe they knew their neighbors had put more thought into it. While they were busy taming horses and honing their archery? So they said, Ok, we got nothing good, come show us what you've got.
| 187 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:28:06pm |
| 188 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:28:09pm |
Great Book: The Evolution of God I highly suggest it.
| 189 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:28:10pm |
OK now I really have to go... Darn angular momentum conservation! Must beat the sun.
Be well ladies and gents...
| 190 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:28:29pm |
re: #164 ralphieboy
Yes, he was giving off signals. You seem to think that they were overlooked for fear of offending him with a diagnosis. They could've been just overlooked for having other priorities and being overworked.
And at the same time, the fellow claimed he was being "persecuted" for his beliefs. That does not jive with your line of reasoning, unless you accept the argumet that Islam is inherently evil and violent.
And if you accept that, then be prepared to write of one-quarter of humanity. I am not ready to do that just yet.
Neither am I, but it's always wise to watch your back, which, in my opinion, that wasn't happening.
There should be a real big tsunami of realization barreling through the military right now that the have a major problem. And they better fix it or we are in big trouble.
And you know, there was a time if he "claimed he was being "persecuted" for his beliefs..." they would have told him (and his buddies) to take it off line.
Big fucking boo-hoo on that one. This is the military, not a day care center.
| 191 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:28:44pm |
re: #179 reine.de.tout
These are the same things that pro-lifers like myself are expected to do with idiots who murder abortion doctors.
GMTA, that's exactly the point I was making.
| 192 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:28:44pm |
re: #169 Guanxi88
I thnk you'll find that atheism was an official doctrinal plank of Soviet communism, and was pursued most aggressively wherever possible. This explains the absolute destruction of the Church in the early days of the Bolshevik Revolution, a pattern common to revolutionaries of the twentieth century.
And the war with the Reich? Hitler started that one.
1: my point exactly. Communism leads to atheism (or at least it forces religion underground), NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
There is this idiotic notion that since communists are atheists therefore all atheists must be communists. (The old "since all sprockets are widgets, all widgets must be sprockets")
2: I am well aware of that. Which was sort of why I pointed it out.
| 193 |
seamonkey Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:28:47pm |
re: #177 ralphieboy
Buddhis warrior monks were a standard fixture in medieval Japan, and several of the most famous warlords were monks as well. And many of them were also homosexual...
All of which reminds on that any person's psychology and motivations come from a variety of sources, religion is only one of them.
There was explicit Buddhist militarism and anti-Semitism in World War II. See Brian Victoria's Zen at War.
| 194 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:29:09pm |
re: #181 LudwigVanQuixote
I didn't mean to imply you were being exclusive. I am sorry.
No apology needed. Just felt the need to clarify.
| 195 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:29:25pm |
re: #147 filetandrelease
No doubt, but remove those killed by Islamist, and how many less deaths a day are there? What is the percentage? I do not know, but suspect it higher than most believe.
Ignoring the elephant in the closest won't make it go away.
I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying it's a part of human nature, and many guises are used to legitimize dominating and controlling others. How many people will be killed today because of Central and South American drug cartels? I bet their numbers are as gruesome.
| 196 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:29:28pm |
re: #186 seamonkey
Maybe they knew their neighbors had put more thought into it. While they were busy taming horses and honing their archery? So they said, Ok, we got nothing good, come show us what you've got.
True, nomads tend to be pretty practical folk. Provided you kept the tribe and the clans together whether and to which manifestation of the Divine you prayed and how you did it really didn't matter much.
| 197 |
subsailor68 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:29:46pm |
re: #185 cliffster
I think you made that story up. You didn't paint your house purple. That shit never happened. ;)
Oh thanks cliffster. Gee.
Okay, I made it up. But Aesop made up "The Tortoise and the Hare" didn't he?
;-)
| 198 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:29:48pm |
Just heard from my brother at Fort Hood. His unit came in early from the field so everyone could reassure family members and provide whatever support they can to the wounded and the friends and families of the murdered. He did not know any of the casualties but he does know Dr. Hasan by reputation and has met him a few times. He said Hasan seemed amiable and genuinely concerned. Of course, he had no way of knowing about Hasan's personal troubles, and was not even sure he was a practicing Muslim.
| 199 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:30:44pm |
re: #179 reine.de.tout
I haven't picked up that vibe, and I wonder if you are assuming it exists. The actions Killgore talked about were very individual and local actions - don't attend a mosque that preaches jihad, don't praise or excuse terrorism, don't associate with those who do, and speak out against terrorism where appropriate.
These are the same things that pro-lifers like myself are expected to do with idiots who murder abortion doctors.
I agree with the local/individual stuff. But when people start saying stuff like All muslims this, or the whole religion that, or I read the koran and... that's the stuff that pricks my ears up. Dismissing the whole religion because there are fanatics and dictatorial regimes that use it as a tool.
Ludwig says it better than me here:
re: #149 LudwigVanQuixote
All politics is local, and that includes this stuff, so I think we're more or less in agreement.
| 200 |
EastSider Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:30:51pm |
re: #169 Guanxi88
I thnk you'll find that atheism was an official doctrinal plank of Soviet communism, and was pursued most aggressively wherever possible. This explains the absolute destruction of the Church in the early days of the Bolshevik Revolution, a pattern common to revolutionaries of the twentieth century.
And the war with the Reich? Hitler started that one.
USSR = good example of atheism being bad. Although the issue here is that atheism wasn't a motive to kill, or the primary problem w/ the USSR. Communism and socialism are religion-less. In fact, one could probably twist Christianity (giving to charity, helping the poor, etc) in such a way as to promote communism.
I grew up post-cold war, so the USSR doesn't do it for me as a boogeyman. Atheists I know are pretty damn peaceful, when it comes right down to it.
For all those people who are citing atheism as violent, please send me a link with any of the following:
Atheist shoots up abortion clinic
Atheist blows up church
Atheist kills daughter for dressing too western
Atheists riot at political mishap
Religions are largely designed as an instrument of peace, but some people have twisted them into instruments of violence. Atheism, however, does not preach or espouse peace and love, but then again atheists aren't engaging in actual wars to tramp out godful infidels.
| 201 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:31:12pm |
re: #197 subsailor68
Oh thanks cliffster. Gee.
Okay, I made it up. But Aesop made up "The Tortoise and the Hare" didn't he?
;-)
You made it up? I'm going back up thread and taking my up ding back.
| 202 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:31:56pm |
re: #198 Shiplord Kirel
Just heard from my brother at Fort Hood. His unit came in early from the field so everyone could reassure family members and provide whatever support they can to the wounded and the friends and families of the murdered. He did not know any of the casualties but he does know Dr. Hasan by reputation and has met him a few times. He said Hasan seemed amiable and genuinely concerned. Of course, he had no way of knowing about Hasan's personal troubles, and was not even sure he was a practicing Muslim.
Well, it appears that he was certainly trying to catch up on practicing in the last few days.
| 203 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:32:00pm |
re: #192 enoughalready
1: my point exactly. Communism leads to atheism (or at least it forces religion underground), NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
There is this idiotic notion that since communists are atheists therefore all atheists must be communists. (The old "since all sprockets are widgets, all widgets must be sprockets")
2: I am well aware of that. Which was sort of why I pointed it out.
Okay, you were looking for an example of a war for atheism, and I gave you one, fought for the better part of four decades in Russia and the immediate environs. Atheism doesn't lead to communism, of course not, but communism does lead to atheism (except in its NorK variants, which are a whole other thing altogether, and are so weird as to almost defy categorization0>
People make a big mistake assuming that because all Reds were atheists, all atheists were Reds - certainly not the point I was making. Atheism was one battle in the larger war of Communism against mankind.
| 204 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:32:33pm |
re: #190 Walter L. Newton
Neither am I, but it's always wise to watch your back, which, in my opinion, that wasn't happening.
There should be a real big tsunami of realization barreling through the military right now that the have a major problem. And they better fix it or we are in big trouble.
And you know, there was a time if he "claimed he was being "persecuted" for his beliefs..." they would have told him (and his buddies) to take it off line.
Big fucking boo-hoo on that one. This is the military, not a day care center.
I understand about watching one's back: there is Islam and Islamism, Judaism and Zionism, Christianity and Dominionism. We have to be very attentive when someone crosses the line and starts using it as a justification to commit acts of violence.
| 205 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:33:33pm |
re: #200 EastSider
Atheism, however, does not preach or espouse peace and love, but then again atheists aren't engaging in actual wars to tramp out godful infidels.
Because Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin et al were just misunderstood and really swell guys!
| 206 |
subsailor68 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:33:41pm |
re: #201 Walter L. Newton
You made it up? I'm going back up thread and taking my up ding back.
Uh, um... well, I did read that book!
And I did get rid of it.
| 207 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:33:45pm |
I'm really trying to ignore the wingnut blogs these days, but I noticed some links from bloggers who are making a big deal out of the fact that my headline said "Fort Hood Shooter Identified as a Major". Apparently they were expecting some other M word.
I still think it's headline-worthy that he is a Major in the US Army, sorry. Even more so, now that info is coming out about the warning signs he was broadcasting.
The fact that his name is Nidal Malik Hasan is right there in my post, and I usually expect my readers to be smart enough to figure out it's a Muslim name without bludgeoning them in the face with it.
| 208 |
Vicious Babushka Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:33:48pm |
re: #159 Conservative Moonbat
Yeah, but they were atheists because of Marxism which was much more responsible for any warlike tendencies. The fact that they were atheists didn't make them warlike. The fact that they were a totalitarian Communist regime did.
What about Robespierre? Reign of Terror before Marx was born.
| 209 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:33:59pm |
re: #203 Guanxi88
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that Hitler waged war on Russia as part of a war against atheism? (Sorry, I am apparently a little slow today)
| 210 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:34:07pm |
re: #185 cliffster
I think you made that story up. You didn't paint your house purple. That shit never happened. ;)
| 211 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:34:31pm |
am just waiting for the usual leftwing moonbats to create their huge neocon conspiracy theory over thi... oh wait. no .. obama is in the white house.
| 212 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:34:35pm |
re: #209 enoughalready
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that Hitler waged war on Russia as part of a war against atheism? (Sorry, I am apparently a little slow today)
He saw it as more of a war on "Jewish Bolshevism".
| 213 |
checked08 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:34:42pm |
re: #113 Gus 802
Sorry, didn't know linking to wnd was a nono. But yeah, was kinda pointing out that the author was crazy. If you read the end, he even refuted his own point.
| 214 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:35:00pm |
re: #209 enoughalready
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that Hitler waged war on Russia as part of a war against atheism? (Sorry, I am apparently a little slow today)
No; Hitler invaded USSR as part of his larger war against humanity. Par for the course with him.
| 215 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:35:08pm |
re: #200 EastSider
I think, then, the comparison of atheist violence and religious violence is almost apples and oranges. I do not imagine an atheist ever claiming their violence to be in the name of atheism. But I'd be willing to bet the stats are spread pretty evenly through religions and atheism.
| 216 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:35:13pm |
I knew I should have bought some sudafed. I am getting sick. Again. This is starting to get annoying.
| 217 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:35:26pm |
re: #199 WindUpBird
I agree with the local/individual stuff. But when people start saying stuff like All muslims this, or the whole religion that, or I read the koran and... that's the stuff that pricks my ears up. Dismissing the whole religion because there are fanatics and dictatorial regimes that use it as a tool.
Ludwig says it better than me here:
re: #149 LudwigVanQuixote
All politics is local, and that includes this stuff, so I think we're more or less in agreement.
I understand your point. But I don't see an "all" in post #81.
Besides which, sometimes when people are writing quickly (as one must do here), people use language that is not as clear or concise as it could be. I tend to give a bit of a break if the overall point seems sound.
| 218 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:35:38pm |
re: #214 Guanxi88
No; Hitler invaded USSR as part of his larger war against humanity. Par for the course with him.
Thanks. Ah ok, I was wondering what you meant there.
| 219 |
SeaMonkey Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:35:44pm |
re: #205 sattv4u2
Atheism, however, does not preach or espouse peace and love, but then again atheists aren't engaging in actual wars to tramp out godful infidels.
Because Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin et al were just misunderstood and really swell guys!
Identifying atheism with totalitarianism is false equivalence, spurious, etc.
| 220 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:36:09pm |
re: #204 ralphieboy
I understand about watching one's back: there is Islam and Islamism, Judaism and Zionism, Christianity and Dominionism. We have to be very attentive when someone crosses the line and starts using it as a justification to commit acts of violence.
"NPR "All Things Considered" reports that Hasan talked at a professional meeting about beheading infidels." I think someone missed the opportunity to be attentive in this mans case.
[Link: www.blackfive.net...]
Agree?
| 221 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:36:10pm |
re: #216 enoughalready
I knew I should have bought some sudafed. I am getting sick. Again. This is starting to get annoying.
Keep whining here about it and it will annoy us too~~~
///
| 222 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:36:20pm |
re: #182 Killgore Trout
Of course I am speaking locally and personally. An American Muslim has no direct control over what is preached in Mecca. However, there is near universal support for groups like Hamas and Hezbollah in Islam all over the world. That's a serious problem. If enough Muslims took personal responsibility for their local Muslim community the problem could be solved. It's the same with Christianity. In the vast majority of churches you couldn't hear a sermon praising the killing of abortion doctors. The congregation would not tolerate it. That's why the killing of abortion doctors is correctly blamed blamed on fringe extremists, not Christianity as a whole.
That is a problem. I do agree with you. But some of that problem (I think) is impossible to prevent because of human beings just being tribalistic and being sympathetic to those who they feel are like themselves. And fundamentalist islam is being used as a tool of control by dictatorial regimes, as we all know. Where does the influence of the religion itself end, and the social engineering of the religion by dictatorial regimes begin?
| 223 |
subsailor68 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:36:36pm |
re: #207 Charles
I'm really trying to ignore the wingnut blogs these days, but I noticed some links from bloggers who are making a big deal out of the fact that my headline said "Fort Hood Shooter Identified as a Major". Apparently they were expecting some other M word.
I still think it's headline-worthy that he is a Major in the US Army, sorry. Even more so, now that info is coming out about the warning signs he was broadcasting.
The fact that his name is Nidal Malik Hasan is right there in my post, and I usually expect my readers to be smart enough to figure out it's a Muslim name without bludgeoning them in the face with it.
Actually, your headline was particularly germane. One of the most disturbing aspects of the story is that this was a serving officer in the United States Army. Guess some of those bloggers missed that point.
| 224 |
Gus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:36:40pm |
re: #213 checked08
Sorry, didn't know linking to wnd was a nono. But yeah, was kinda pointing out that the author was crazy. If you read the end, he even refuted his own point.
Understood. Yeah, if you do a cached link it's OK sometimes. I didn't read the specific article but did some of my own quick research. He wasn't and adviser as I stated and just a participant. Sometimes people will get through a door that they don't deserve to go through but it happens from time to time.
| 225 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:36:47pm |
re: #219 SeaMonkey
Identifying atheism with totalitarianism is false equivalence, spurious, etc.
Josef Stalin also became an object of worship, like many dictators do.
| 226 |
caligal Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:36:51pm |
I never listen to NPR so this link was interesting. Thank you.
| 227 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:36:56pm |
re: #219 SeaMonkey
Identifying atheism with totalitarianism is false equivalence, spurious, etc.
But saying that Athiest don't commit these types of crimes just because they're not doing it in the name of religion is ,,,???
| 228 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:37:01pm |
re: #203 Guanxi88
Atheism was one battle in the larger war of Communism against mankind.
yeah right. Thomas Jefferson would beg to differ.
me -> atheist. and a strong libertarian, if not conservative. Mark Levin - always on my ipod.
| 229 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:37:12pm |
re: #216 enoughalready
I knew I should have bought some sudafed. I am getting sick. Again. This is starting to get annoying.
I've been in various stages of being sick for at least the last 3 weeks. This bug is a pain in the ass.
| 230 |
kilroy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:37:57pm |
re: #164 ralphieboy
Do you think a significant number of people in Iran may be giving out the same signals?
| 231 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:38:07pm |
re: #227 sattv4u2
But saying that Athiest don't commit these types of crimes just because they're not doing it in the name of religion is ,,,???
See my #215. I think we're on to something.
| 232 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:38:19pm |
re: #225 ralphieboy
Josef Stalin also became an object of worship, like many dictators do.
Oh yes, the "little father" was certainly well on his way to semi god-status.
| 233 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:38:28pm |
re: #195 Sharmuta
I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying it's a part of human nature, and many guises are used to legitimize dominating and controlling others. How many people will be killed today because of Central and South American drug cartels? I bet their numbers are as gruesome.
At some point is not introspection expected to realize your group is some how legitmizing a lot of death?
I do not want to undermine what you are saying,mankind is a violent species. However the actual qauntity of violence associated with Islam today is far greater than the Drug Cartels or any other "group" I am aware of.
| 234 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:38:34pm |
re: #222 WindUpBird
That is a problem. I do agree with you. But some of that problem (I think) is impossible to prevent because of human beings just being tribalistic and being sympathetic to those who they feel are like themselves. And fundamentalist islam is being used as a tool of control by dictatorial regimes, as we all know. Where does the influence of the religion itself end, and the social engineering of the religion by dictatorial regimes begin?
Part of the peculiarity of Islam is that it reads largely like a system for the imposition of an Arab-inflected imperialism over conquered peoples. Consequently, there are certain aspects of it that make it somewhat difficult to challenge those who wish to make use of it for political purposes, because it is a systematic and totalizing religion with strong legal aspects to it. The fanatics claim it is a complete system of government, and they're right.
| 235 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:38:48pm |
re: #205 sattv4u2
Atheism, however, does not preach or espouse peace and love, but then again atheists aren't engaging in actual wars to tramp out godful infidels.
Because Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin et al were just misunderstood and really swell guys!
Really, as our premier atheist on LGF, you don't want me to start tearing you a new one on such fallacious statements such as that?
Right?
| 236 |
The Sanity Inspector Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:39:00pm |
| 237 |
keloyd Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:39:01pm |
Those of you who aren't religious should think of religion the way we think of the Constitution. It has a few embarrasing passages about slaves and male pronouns. It is big and vague. If society wants to treat a minority well or poorly, the cleverest among us will find justification in the Constitution. Really, society has stimuli and responses. Our Constitution will round off the edges of what we can do, but not much more.
Likewise, once the Constitution is 15 to 35 centuries old, with additional commentary and endless interpretation, if you are compelled to rampage and pillage, you will find justification in Religion. If you are oppressed and want dignity amid your suffering, you will find THAT. Any religion is never the true cause of being peaceful or warlike; it's just one of many 2nd tier factors, imho.
| 238 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:39:09pm |
re: #235 Walter L. Newton
Really, as our premier atheist on LGF, you don't want me to start tearing you a new one on such fallacious statements such as that?
Right?
Left
| 239 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:39:15pm |
re: #220 Walter L. Newton
"NPR "All Things Considered" reports that Hasan talked at a professional meeting about beheading infidels." I think someone missed the opportunity to be attentive in this mans case.
[Link: www.blackfive.net...]
Agree?
political correctness has literally become the death of us.
did nobody even bat an eyelid about this guy?
| 240 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:39:29pm |
re: #228 buzzdroid
yeah right. Thomas Jefferson would beg to differ.
me -> atheist. and a strong libertarian, if not conservative. Mark Levin - always on my ipod.
Jefferson atheism was not a rpe-requisite to the perfection of the system of government. Soviet atheism was a requirement for the success of the Party in the USSR
| 241 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:40:15pm |
re: #235 Walter L. Newton
I maintain Killgore as our premier atheist.
| 242 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:40:15pm |
re: #207 Charles
I'm really trying to ignore the wingnut blogs these days, but I noticed some links from bloggers who are making a big deal out of the fact that my headline said "Fort Hood Shooter Identified as a Major". Apparently they were expecting some other M word.
I still think it's headline-worthy that he is a Major in the US Army, sorry. Even more so, now that info is coming out about the warning signs he was broadcasting.
The fact that his name is Nidal Malik Hasan is right there in my post, and I usually expect my readers to be smart enough to figure out it's a Muslim name without bludgeoning them in the face with it.
Those blogs are looking for any reason at all to "prove" that you have descended into some sort of madness. They have to do it; otherwise, their readers might begin to suspect that you're actually quite sane. Couldn't have that happen.
| 244 |
cliffster Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:40:53pm |
| 245 |
SeaMonkey Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:41:23pm |
re: #228 buzzdroid
yeah right. Thomas Jefferson would beg to differ.
me -> atheist. and a strong libertarian, if not conservative. Mark Levin - always on my ipod.
Are we now claiming Thomas Jefferson was an Atheist? Or a Communist?
| 246 |
keloyd Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:41:32pm |
re: #223 subsailor68
True, but also consider that physicians come in as captains. He had only gotten one promotion as I understand the system. Still, that makes him solid middle management.
| 247 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:41:32pm |
re: #241 bosforus
I maintain Killgore as our premier atheist.
No... it's me, me, me, me, me... Let's put it to a vote.
| 248 |
Gus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:41:45pm |
re: #219 SeaMonkey
Identifying atheism with totalitarianism is false equivalence, spurious, etc.
As an atheist, I would say that in totalitarianism regimes atheism doesn't apply. Atheism is a personal journey so to speak. I would however say that what does apply is anti-theism or anti-church states where they see either of the two in competition to power. Atheism is about living along side theists.
| 249 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:41:49pm |
re: #217 reine.de.tout
I think it's very offputting for someone to say "a sane Muslim should re-evaluate their religion and become a athiest or a Buddhist" because of a terrorist or a murderer who shares their religion and believes in a twisted version of it. That seems discriminatory and frankly ridiculous to me.
here's the quote:
Am I out of line to suggest that at some point any sane Muslim should start asking "tough questions" about their religion? Like, should I be an athiest or a Buddist or something other than a Muslim?
Sorry, I wildly disagree with this sentiment.
| 250 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:42:01pm |
re: #243 Walter L. Newton
I was actually responding more to the claim that "athiets don't shoot up (this that and the other) because of religion"
Small comfort to the millions of Pol Pot victims
| 251 |
Bagua Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:42:03pm |
Heard on NPR: There is now a Pre Traumatic Stress Disorder
They are spinning this desperately.
| 252 |
Hawkins Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:42:07pm |
re: #74 karmic_inquisitor
Wow... you may be right. Sometimes a cad is just a cad, as Freud might have said.
IslamoPoseur sounds right, too, given the reports that he liked to go around in traditional Islamic garb (as shown in the 7-11 security camera footage on the news this morning.)
| 253 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:42:09pm |
re: #245 SeaMonkey
Are we now claiming Thomas Jefferson was an Atheist? Or a Communist?
Or do we just go halfway and brand him a RINO pinko liberal?
| 254 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:42:12pm |
re: #245 SeaMonkey
Are we now claiming Thomas Jefferson was an Atheist? Or a Communist?
I hope not, since he was a stated Deist, which does not deny a G-d.
| 255 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:42:20pm |
just waiting for the moonbats to say "INSIDE JOB!!"
oh wait no.. they got a moonbat in the white house. oh no - the left dont do inside jobs - oh no... thats for evil neo-cons.
| 256 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:42:46pm |
re: #247 Walter L. Newton
No... it's me, me, me, me, me... Let's put it to a vote.
-1 for you. There's my vote. :)
| 257 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:42:58pm |
re: #237 keloyd
Those of you who aren't religious should think of religion the way we think of the Constitution. It has a few embarrasing passages about slaves and male pronouns. It is big and vague. If society wants to treat a minority well or poorly, the cleverest among us will find justification in the Constitution. Really, society has stimuli and responses. Our Constitution will round off the edges of what we can do, but not much more.
Likewise, once the Constitution is 15 to 35 centuries old, with additional commentary and endless interpretation, if you are compelled to rampage and pillage, you will find justification in Religion. If you are oppressed and want dignity amid your suffering, you will find THAT. Any religion is never the true cause of being peaceful or warlike; it's just one of many 2nd tier factors, imho.
And we have a Supreme Court (which now very progressively contains women and minority memebers) to interpret how we go about implementing and living by our constitution.
And which very wisely only rules on laws promulgated and passed by other bodies.
Religions often overlook these principles of separation and balance of powers...
| 258 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:43:18pm |
OT: Stewart did a pretty damned good impression of Glen Beck last night. You can watch it here.
| 259 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:43:20pm |
re: #255 buzzdroid
just waiting for the moonbats to say "INSIDE JOB!!"
oh wait no.. they got a moonbat in the white house. oh no - the left dont do inside jobs - oh no... thats for evil neo-cons.
No, it's the wingnuts doing it now.
| 260 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:43:50pm |
re: #250 sattv4u2
I was actually responding more to the claim that "athiets don't shoot up (this that and the other) because of religion"
Small comfort to the millions of Pol Pot victims
Which would be a valid statement if you could conclusively prove that the reason for the slaughter of cambodians was Pol Pot's atheism.
| 261 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:43:54pm |
re: #252 Hawkins
Wow... you may be right. Sometimes a cad is just a cad, as Freud might have said.
IslamoPoseur sounds right, too, given the reports that he liked to go around in traditional Islamic garb (as shown in the 7-11 security camera footage on the news this morning.)
Was he buying Twinkies?
| 262 |
saik0max0r Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:44:45pm |
re: #59 SanFranciscoZionist
Mohammed Atta tried many times to get a grant to use airliners as crop dusters. After being turned down, he dressed up in a "disguise" consisting of glasses (used a different name) and yet no one in our government who interacted with him called him on it, even though if anything it should have tipped off a fraud investigation, but wrote off his odd behavior as some sort of cultural thing.
Once again, PC kills. Failure to stamp out this crap in order to spare individual/group/whatever feelings is going to lead us down this path again in the near future.
| 263 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:45:05pm |
re: #249 WindUpBird
And I appreciate you view, sincerely, but I was not referencing an isolated incident but rather the consistent and seemingly increasing violence being perpetuated by Islamist. And as stated subsequently, it was an emotional appeal, and honest.
| 264 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:45:19pm |
re: #240 Guanxi88
Jefferson atheism was not a rpe-requisite to the perfection of the system of government. Soviet atheism was a requirement for the success of the Party in the USSR
indeed i know that. and that Soviet mind system led to unspeakable horrors.
thats why the american system of freedom of belief is so important.
you can see the result - the least radical of all western Muslim populations exists in the United States.
In fact all the government intervention and political correctness in Europe has made them vastly more radical in Europe than in America - in America , you are left alone and free to believe. That is important.
| 265 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:45:56pm |
There are still pretty things...
| 266 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:46:11pm |
re: #233 filetandrelease
At some point is not introspection expected to realize your group is some how legitmizing a lot of death?
I do not want to undermine what you are saying,mankind is a violent species. However the actual qauntity of violence associated with Islam today is far greater than the Drug Cartels or any other "group" I am aware of.
I believe it's a little like someone said upthread- we can't force liberalism at the end of a gun. I firmly believe democracy and feminism will be the two forces that will moderate islam, but it will take a time. We will likely never see such a process completed in our lifetime, but we do know it's underway.
And I'm not trying to diminish the violence of islamists, but without having numbers to compare, we can't say who is worse.
| 267 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:46:46pm |
re: #264 buzzdroid
indeed i know that. and that Soviet mind system led to unspeakable horrors.
thats why the american system of freedom of belief is so important.
you can see the result - the least radical of all western Muslim populations exists in the United States.
In fact all the government intervention and political correctness in Europe has made them vastly more radical in Europe than in America - in America , you are left alone and free to believe. That is important.
Atheism as state policy, is a mistake and an atrocity; it is the flip-side of state-imposed religion.
| 268 |
The Sanity Inspector Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:49:16pm |
re: #92 WindUpBird
One point six BILLION muslims in the world. They're all responsible! Convert them!
/
Say only .01 percent of them are jihadists. Is that a negligible number?
| 269 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:49:58pm |
re: #260 enoughalready
Which would be a valid statement if you could conclusively prove that the reason for the slaughter of cambodians was Pol Pot's atheism.
Swingandamiss
Way to miss the point
The original post stated about all the murders that are "done" in the name of religion, that athiesm doesn't drive (or teach) people to committ these acts
As stated, these acts are created by the religious AND non-religious, by every society that has ever been on this planet
In other words,,, HUMANS
| 270 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:50:08pm |
re: #267 Guanxi88
Atheism as state policy, is a mistake and an atrocity; it is the flip-side of state-imposed religion.
And this I will upding as much as possible. The separation of church and state is a corner stone of democracy.
| 271 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:50:29pm |
re: #267 Guanxi88
Atheism as state policy, is a mistake and an atrocity; it is the flip-side of state-imposed religion.
Equal respect of religions is vital, IMO. I do not equate respecting a religion with endorsing a religion. A state furnished monument of the Koran or a monument of the Ten Commandments is OK by me so long as it was desired by the tax payers. Teaching religion in schools is a no-no. Allowing religious clubs at schools I'm ok with. Just my thoughts.
| 272 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:50:46pm |
re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
There are still pretty things...
| 273 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:51:46pm |
re: #267 Guanxi88
Atheism as state policy, is a mistake and an atrocity; it is the flip-side of state-imposed religion.
indeed it is. try living in Ireland during up to the 1980s.. was almost like a Catholic version of the Taliban.
not nice. equally , atheist USSR wasn't great either. freedom is what America got right.
| 274 |
subsailor68 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:51:53pm |
Well all, it's time to go. The bride and I are heading to our favorite restaurant for some Veracruzana Nachos. Spicy chicken salad, black olives, tomatoes, pico, guac, shredded cheddar cheese - all served cold over homemade tortilla chips. I know - sounds strange - but it's absolutely delicious.
Have a wonderful weekend everyone!!
| 275 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:52:20pm |
Thank you, recusancy, for bringing my Karma to 6,000. I was trying to make it happen at the same time my post count reached 6,000, but I missed it by %P%---%P% --that much.
| 276 |
keloyd Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:52:51pm |
re: #257 ralphieboy
True, but wait another 5 centuries. What will separate our Constitution from the British model then? We will have a mountain of precedents, legions of scholars since time immemorial arguing about their 'living, breathing document'. My analogy was a stretch, but the Constitution and Christianity (to pick one representative religion) are exceedingly flexible. If circumstances (culture, natural resources, technology, competition) push us to do X, someone will find Constitutional and Biblical justification for X, so that I will argue any religion and our Constitution don't so much cause war as they may round off at the edges some of our behaviors, at most.
| 277 |
Four More Tears Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:53:20pm |
re: #271 bosforus
Equal respect of religions is vital, IMO. I do not equate respecting a religion with endorsing a religion. A state furnished monument of the Koran or a monument of the Ten Commandments is OK by me so long as it was desired by the tax payers. Teaching religion in schools is a no-no. Allowing religious clubs at schools I'm ok with. Just my thoughts.
But which tax payers? If my city uses my tax dollars to build a monument for any religion I'm not a part of, even assuming the majority of constituents are, I'm going to be rightly upset, no?
| 278 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:53:31pm |
re: #272 Gearhead
I'd say, "That's just a car, silly." but you'd probably hunt me down and give me noogies.
| 279 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:54:09pm |
re: #274 subsailor68
(Without the chicken ding.)
| 280 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:54:31pm |
re: #270 enoughalready
And this I will upding as much as possible. The separation of church and state is a corner stone of democracy.
You do know that there are no such statements of such in our national documents, don't you?
| 281 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:54:37pm |
re: #170 recusancy
Liberalism. The need a dose. Only problem is, we can't force it on them by the barrel of a gun.
Maybe you can try taxing them into submission.
| 282 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:55:08pm |
re: #271 bosforus
... A state furnished monument of the Koran or a monument of the Ten Commandments is OK by me so long as it was desired by the tax payers. Teaching religion in schools is a no-no. Allowing religious clubs at schools I'm ok with. Just my thoughts.
The problem with that is, then, the majority's religion will be basically imposed. ie... A state furnished monument of the Koran in Alabama would not be desired by the tax payers. The ten commandments, would, on the other hand. Same thing with religious clubs.
The state should be secular and private citizens can do whatever the hell they want.
| 283 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:55:17pm |
re: #276 keloyd
True, but wait another 5 centuries. What will separate our Constitution from the British model then? We will have a mountain of precedents, legions of scholars since time immemorial arguing about their 'living, breathing document'. My analogy was a stretch, but the Constitution and Christianity (to pick one representative religion) are exceedingly flexible. If circumstances (culture, natural resources, technology, competition) push us to do X, someone will find Constitutional and Biblical justification for X, so that I will argue any religion and our Constitution don't so much cause war as they may round off at the edges some of our behaviors, at most.
that "living breathing" document idea has GOT to stop. anytime i read the declaration of independence, or the original constitution i am utterly inspired. those founding fathers knew EXACTLY what they were doing. and they designed it to last.
| 284 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:55:19pm |
re: #275 wrenchwench
Damn healthy karma there...
| 285 |
Gus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:55:26pm |
Interesting post at Psychology Today:
November 6, 2009, Law and Crime
Fort Hood: A rush to judgment
Why I was peeved listening to the pundits
by Irene S. Levine, Ph.D.
First they said he was dead; then they announced he was alive and in stable condition. Then there were reports that there were at least two accomplices---before we heard that there were none. Some reporters said he was a psychologist until they realized he was a psychiatrist. Panels of esteemed experts tried to explain the carnage by speaking about the profound emotional impact on the military of being on the front lines in Iraq and Afghanistan; then they said that the suspected gunman hadn't yet been deployed overseas. These gaffes were from reputable news sources as opposed to the new breed of "citizen journalists"? Doesn't it leave you wondering?
In the rush to create 24-hour coverage, many talking heads from the military, the mental health field, and the media simply got it wrong. Hypotheses and speculations were glossed over as if they were facts. Yes, there is a lot to be learned from the horrors that took place at Fort Hood that will stimulate further discussion about war, terrorism, mental disorders, guns and journalism.
But while it can be riveting, it's premature to speculate about the psyche and motivations of a killer until we have more facts. And even after all the facts are known, there may still be more questions than answers.
| 286 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:55:39pm |
I see that we have some loveable scamps nominating LGF for "best liberal blog" in the silly "weblog awards."
| 287 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:55:43pm |
I know someone who maintains that it was the atheism of the Soviet Union that kept the Cold War cold. That if they had been religious, it would have been a shootin' war. I can't make the case for that, but I find it interesting to think about.
| 288 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:55:53pm |
I wanted to follow-up on my previous comment. While I would find it odd to go to a psychology lecture only to find a religious revival, I would not find it strange to go to a religious revival only to find a seminar on psychology. I figure the latter would suggest I was at a Scientologist's meeting. :p
| 289 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:55:58pm |
re: #280 sattv4u2
You do know that there are no such statements of such in our national documents, don't you?
So? I am arguing that the separation of church and state is a cornerstone of democracy. I didn't notice referring to the constitution anywhere.
| 290 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:56:38pm |
re: #283 buzzdroid
Every time I read the Declaration of Independence, I try to imagine the King reading it for the first time.
heh
| 291 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:56:42pm |
re: #278 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I'd say, "That's just a car, silly." but you'd probably hunt me down and give me noogies.
My friend that is a 1966 Shel...
Never mind. Here -
*grabs Sam Adams Winter Ale*
Have one.
| 292 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:56:54pm |
re: #286 Charles
I see that we have some loveable scamps nominating LGF for "best liberal blog" in the silly "weblog awards."
Kilgore suggested that we all nominate LGF as BOTH Best Liberal and Best Conservative blog the other day
| 293 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:57:28pm |
re: #286 Charles
I see that we have some loveable scamps nominating LGF for "best liberal blog" in the silly "weblog awards."
Wouldn't it be cool to win both "Liberal" and "Conservative"? Especially since there's no "Centrist" option?
| 295 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:57:48pm |
re: #284 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Damn healthy karma there...
I don't know how I got my karma, since I seem to piss off people so much around here.
| 296 |
Four More Tears Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:58:06pm |
re: #287 wrenchwench
I know someone who maintains that it was the atheism of the Soviet Union that kept the Cold War cold. That if they had been religious, it would have been a shootin' war. I can't make the case for that, but I find it interesting to think about.
Nukes kept the cold war cold. I don't think religion had all that much to do with it, honestly.
| 297 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:58:36pm |
re: #295 Walter L. Newton
It's probably all me. Everyone else hates you.
/
| 298 |
Bob Levin Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:58:50pm |
re: #154 wrenchwench
Well, if you are a mental health professional and someone is exhibiting behavior that sends up all of the red flags you are trained to observe, then maybe it wouldn't have been a bad idea to lock him up for three days (standard civilian time for psychiatric observation), interview him to see if he is a danger to himself or others, possibly medicate him, and possibly save lives--since that's basically the bottom line of job definition.
| 299 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:58:50pm |
re: #292 sattv4u2
I don't mind voting for both since I'm neither. I did nominate LGF for the design award, I think that's the category we should shoot for this year.
| 300 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:58:51pm |
although having said that - american "freedom" did go a bit wrong when it came to the blacks in the south and civil rights.
thats something that most right wing talk radio guys gloss over. and its their achilles heel.
| 301 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:58:58pm |
re: #287 wrenchwench
I know someone who maintains that it was the atheism of the Soviet Union that kept the Cold War cold. That if they had been religious, it would have been a shootin' war. I can't make the case for that, but I find it interesting to think about.
I've heard that argued as well. Basically the point is a that a fully materialistic society which is primarily atheist has a populace and a leadership which is, in general, convinced that there is no after life. Since there is nothing after death, fighting a war to the death seems like a pretty bad idea unless it happens to be (in the case of the second world war) a war for the survival of the nation itself.
| 302 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:59:05pm |
re: #266 Sharmuta
Quantifying the violence is an unpleasant task and something I will gladly defer. Your belief about what may modify Islam parallels mine.
It just frustrates me, such a waste of life.
| 303 |
keloyd Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:59:09pm |
re: #287 wrenchwench
Devil his due, the Reds were a rational enemy. When you understand your opponents, you can fight or negotiate more effectively,
| 304 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:59:15pm |
re: #262 saik0max0r
Mohammed Atta tried many times to get a grant to use airliners as crop dusters. After being turned down, he dressed up in a "disguise" consisting of glasses (used a different name) and yet no one in our government who interacted with him called him on it, even though if anything it should have tipped off a fraud investigation, but wrote off his odd behavior as some sort of cultural thing.
Once again, PC kills. Failure to stamp out this crap in order to spare individual/group/whatever feelings is going to lead us down this path again in the near future.
"no one in our government who interacted with him called him on it, even though if anything it should have tipped off a fraud investigation, but wrote off his odd behavior as some sort of cultural thing."
?!?
There is a lot of evidence that people knew that someting was afoot and even tried to warn the government but it was overlooked for other reasons than "respecting cultural diversity"
| 305 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:59:33pm |
re: #296 JasonA
Nukes kept the cold war cold. I don't think religion had all that much to do with it, honestly.
Maybe the notion that there is nothing after death made Mutually Assured Destruction work.
| 306 |
Bagua Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:59:57pm |
re: #286 Charles
I see that we have some loveable scamps nominating LGF for "best liberal blog" in the silly "weblog awards."
At least they have the "best blog" part right.
| 307 |
The Sanity Inspector Fri, Nov 6, 2009 1:59:57pm |
re: #93 bosforus
Millions seem to have lived its principles in peace. You could apply your line of thinking to any institution (not just religion) and it would be just as invalid.
The overwhelming majority of Muslims do not obey the Koranic injunction to "make wide slaughter in the land", for the same reason the overwhelming majority of Christians do not give away their possessions to the poor and become mendicant missionaries. It's unnatural, and at odds with what people normally want to do with their lives. But the precepts are still there, and they are planted in the hearts of the respective religions' adherents. And occasionally they are acted upon.
| 308 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:00:03pm |
re: #290 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Every time I read the Declaration of Independence, I try to imagine the King reading it for the first time.
heh
HA!!! that image is friggin AWESOME..
great point!
as he crumples it up and emits a monarchical fume of utter despair..
LOVE IT.
| 309 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:00:04pm |
re: #299 Killgore Trout
I don't mind voting for both since I'm neither. I did nominate LGF for the design award, I think that's the category we should shoot for this year.
AbsoFuckinGalootly
| 310 |
Four More Tears Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:00:21pm |
re: #301 enoughalready
I've heard that argued as well. Basically the point is a that a fully materialistic society which is primarily atheist has a populace and a leadership which is, in general, convinced that there is no after life. Since there is nothing after death, fighting a war to the death seems like a pretty bad idea unless it happens to be (in the case of the second world war) a war for the survival of the nation itself.
Is there evidence that suggests a large part of the population was irreligious? Just because the state is anti-religion does not mean everyone gives up their beliefs.
| 311 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:00:27pm |
| 313 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:00:59pm |
re: #305 wrenchwench
Maybe the notion that there is nothing after death made Mutually Assured Destruction work.
There are some radical Fundamentalist Christians aout there trying to precipitate Armageddon in the Middle East just to light a fire under Jesus' butt on the Second Coming...
| 314 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:01:23pm |
re: #311 albusteve
the Baracuda, behind the Cobra, is probably worth alot more if it's a Hemi
I didn't even see that before...
| 315 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:01:30pm |
Wow, there are very few nominations for liberal blog this year. Not many liberal blogs seem interested in the award.
| 316 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:01:37pm |
re: #307 The Sanity Inspector
The overwhelming majority of Muslims do not obey the Koranic injunction to "make wide slaughter in the land", for the same reason the overwhelming majority of Christians do not give away their possessions to the poor and become mendicant missionaries. It's unnatural, and at odds with what people normally want to do with their lives. But the precepts are still there, and they are planted in the hearts of the respective religions' adherents. And occasionally they are acted upon.
if you dig into the bible you'll find plenty of "slay the unbelievers" stuff in Christianity too.
how else do you think they convinced thousands to join the Crusades?
| 317 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:02:11pm |
re: #281 SixDegrees
Maybe you can try taxing them into submission.
I was waiting for a comment like that.
| 318 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:03:17pm |
re: #298 Bob Levin
Well, if you are a mental health professional and someone is exhibiting behavior that sends up all of the red flags you are trained to observe, then maybe it wouldn't have been a bad idea to lock him up for three days (standard civilian time for psychiatric observation), interview him to see if he is a danger to himself or others, possibly medicate him, and possibly save lives--since that's basically the bottom line of job definition.
OK, I didn't know you meant conclusions should have been jumped to before the shooting started, I thought you meant now.
| 319 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:03:32pm |
re: #277 JasonA
I understand your point. I would not be upset. A monument is not equivalent to being forced to learn or practice Islam.
| 320 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:03:32pm |
re: #315 Killgore Trout
Wow, there are very few nominations for liberal blog this year. Not many liberal blogs seem interested in the award.
Hemi Cudas are in orbit right now... but I'd rather have the little guy, especially if it's a factory job and not a repro of some sort
| 321 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:04:08pm |
For most Muslims, Islam is a way of life, a cultural identification and a vehicle for finding a way to lead a better life. Along with some of the nastier passages about beheading and enslaving, it contains passages on being honest, moral and generous to the poor and less fortunate.
We need to judge these people on how they go about implementing these Scriptures in daily life, not fixate on the scriptures themselves.
| 322 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:04:19pm |
re: #310 JasonA
Is there evidence that suggests a large part of the population was irreligious? Just because the state is anti-religion does not mean everyone gives up their beliefs.
And this was especially true in the USSR. However, the nation was controlled by the party and the party members could probably be trusted to be atheists. That means that pretty much anyone who was in a position of power, from the foreman on the factory floor up to the highest soviet was an atheist. In theory at least. However it would have been impossible to argue that starting a war that would lead to annihilation would be a good idea in that sort of environment. As someone pointed out, the USSR was certainly a rational enemy. The best kind of enemy.
| 323 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:04:23pm |
re: #315 Killgore Trout
Wow, there are very few nominations for liberal blog this year. Not many liberal blogs seem interested in the award.
Nobel Burnout Syndrome
| 324 |
keloyd Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:04:43pm |
re: #300 buzzdroid
Yup, jury nullification was a noble, powerful thing in the British common law system until we pooped all over with white-on-black criminal cases. All rights eventually jostle against each other - private property rights vs. serving minorities, property vs. imminent domain, etc., that's why the Constitution needs to adapt a bit over time.
| 325 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:04:48pm |
re: #313 ralphieboy
There are some radical Fundamentalist Christians aout there trying to precipitate Armageddon in the Middle East just to light a fire under Jesus' butt on the Second Coming...
And then there are those awaiting the Mahdi.
| 326 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:04:49pm |
re: #316 buzzdroid
if you dig into the bible you'll find plenty of "slay the unbelievers" stuff in Christianity too.
Eh, not that much in Christianity. Gotta hit the Hebrew bible - my part of the book - to get that kinda stuff. Judges, Joshua, etc.
how else do you think they convinced thousands to join the Crusades?
Promises of spoils of war and forgiveness of sins played a big part, as did feudal obligations
| 327 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:04:54pm |
re: #300 buzzdroid
although having said that - american "freedom" did go a bit wrong when it came to the blacks in the south and civil rights.
thats something that most right wing talk radio guys gloss over. and its their achilles heel.
Not really. All the ones I've heard readily admit is was a shame on America. They're also of the opinion that although there are still some problems the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson et al try to make each incident of a black person and white preson having an argument a race riot, instead of saying it's two poeple having an argument
Now ,, IS it racial? Yes ,, SOMEtimes ,, but not ALL times
| 329 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:05:13pm |
re: #316 buzzdroid
if you dig into the bible you'll find plenty of "slay the unbelievers" stuff in Christianity too.
how else do you think they convinced thousands to join the Crusades?
Then dig. Please, quote me chapter and verse in the greek scriptures where there is any "slay the unbelievers" text?
You can't.
| 330 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:05:51pm |
re: #325 wrenchwench
And then there are those awaiting the Mahdi.
Put the two together and it's like Matter and Antimatter. Or Christ and Antichrist. Or Mahdi and Antimahdi.
Time to go to bed, it's getting late here in Old Europe...
| 331 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:06:07pm |
re: #302 filetandrelease
Quantifying the violence is an unpleasant task and something I will gladly defer. Your belief about what may modify Islam parallels mine.
It just frustrates me, such a waste of life.
It's not that I don't get what you've been saying. It's that this guy was culturally an American. I don't see him as an islamist but I do think he used his religion to justify a lot about himself and his actions including his attack on Fort Hood.
| 332 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:06:14pm |
re: #282 recusancy
The problem with that is, then, the majority's religion will be basically imposed.
I don't see how you've come to that conclusion given my example. Unless the legislation is being rewritten to reflect the religious beliefs the imposition you speak of does not exist.
| 334 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:06:41pm |
re: #329 Walter L. Newton
Then dig. Please, quote me chapter and verse in the greek scriptures where there is any "slay the unbelievers" text?
You can't.
Well,,, if you're going to start demanding PROOF !!!
| 336 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:07:40pm |
re: #316 buzzdroid
if you dig into the bible you'll find plenty of "slay the unbelievers" stuff in Christianity too.
how else do you think they convinced thousands to join the Crusades?
And maybe you better do a little research on the Crusades, all two hundred years of them. The reason were a bit more complex than you try to make them out to be, and the complexion of the Crusades changed as the dynamics did over the centuries.
You're way off base here.
| 338 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:07:52pm |
re: #328 buzzdroid
sometimes when i come on here it really DOES look like a liberal blog.
ease off on the creationist bashing. nobody cares about that.
more on the big government 1995 page healthcare bill that nobody has read and that Pelosi wants to ram down congress and that'll get your barometer back to where it should naturally be - on the centre right.
note - i said CENTRE RIGHT.. i never thought of lgf as a neo con far right blog. but equally its not left wing. maybe you made a bad call on your choice of stories recently. i certainly noticed it.
so are you a Rolling Stones fan by any chance?
| 339 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:08:03pm |
re: #326 Guanxi88
Promises of spoils of war and forgiveness of sins played a big part, as did feudal obligations
true. fair point.
| 341 |
The Sanity Inspector Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:08:33pm |
Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Ev'rybody get together
Try to love one another
Right now...
| 342 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:08:34pm |
re: #329 Walter L. Newton
Then dig. Please, quote me chapter and verse in the greek scriptures where there is any "slay the unbelievers" text?
You can't.
Not bad for an atheist.
| 343 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:08:49pm |
re: #328 buzzdroid
maybe you made a bad call on your choice of stories recently.
I don't think so. What's your problem?
| 344 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:09:09pm |
re: #328 buzzdroid
So what you are saying is "I don't agree with you and therefore your choice of stories is bad since they make me look like a fool"?
| 345 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:09:14pm |
re: #332 bosforus
Basically imposed. Not officially imposed. The majority's religion would be tolerated and the minority's would not be. Like I said, try getting an islamic symbol set up in Alabama without a populist backlash and I'd believe you. My point is it would allow the state to be perceived as being pro one religion and not another.
| 346 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:09:47pm |
re: #342 filetandrelease
Not bad for an atheist.
Thanks... can I come to your house for Christmas. Doesn't every household need a pet atheist?
| 347 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:10:29pm |
re: #346 Walter L. Newton
Thanks... can I come to your house for Christmas. Doesn't every household need a peSt atheist?
ftfy
| 348 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:10:47pm |
re: #329 Walter L. Newton
Then dig. Please, quote me chapter and verse in the greek scriptures where there is any "slay the unbelievers" text?
You can't.
how did they convince peasants to join the crusades?
there must be some quote from the bible that they used.
having said that - i heard the other day that the english translation of the Koran is actually extremely toned down. the arabic version is actually far far worse than we can ever imagine.
| 349 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:11:05pm |
re: #346 Walter L. Newton
Thanks... can I come to your house for Christmas. Doesn't every household need a pet atheist?
quit trashing Christmas!...I WANT AN APOLOGY!
| 350 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:11:45pm |
re: #342 filetandrelease
Not bad for an atheist.
An Athiest who's spent more time studying scripture than most believers... IIRC.
| 351 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:11:52pm |
Richard Goldstone is a complete asshole.
Shortly after his report accusing Israel of committing war crimes in Gaza was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, Judge Richard Goldstone took part Thursday night in a debate with former Israeli Ambassador to the UN Dore Gold, in which he argued that statements made by Israeli politicians and military officials were proof of the tactic of using disproportional force.
"The problem is that in your report you didn't see Hamas as responsible," Gold claimed in response. "The one who sent the missiles is the one who launched the war."
Goldstone also revealed a personal aspect. "I was afraid to enter Gaza. I had nightmares that Hamas would kidnap me and that the Israelis would rejoice," he said.
...
Responding to Gold's claim that Israel did not exercise collective punishment against the Palestinians, Judge Goldstone said, "Why did they have to bomb the mosque? Why did they have to bomb the American school? Why did they have to attack the UNRWA compound? If this doesn’t call for an investigation, what does? Why did they have to bomb the UN food center? If this isn't collective punishment, what is collective punishment?"
Maybe because those sites were being used to launch attacks, you dumb fucker.
I hate the UN.
| 352 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:11:56pm |
re: #344 enoughalready
So what you are saying is "I don't agree with you and therefore your choice of stories is bad since they make me look like a fool"?
no - i didnt say that . just thought that the choice of stories was skewed to far to the left. thats all.
i dont know where you get the "fool" description. i certainly didnt say that.
| 353 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:11:57pm |
re: #348 buzzdroid
how did they convince peasants to join the crusades?
there must be some quote from the bible that they used.having said that - i heard the other day that the english translation of the Koran is actually extremely toned down. the arabic version is actually far far worse than we can ever imagine.
Very few peasants, except in their capacity as servants of their noble masters, went outremer on the Crusades. Largely an affair of the nobility, with peasants, as always, dragged in against their will.
| 354 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:11:59pm |
re: #346 Walter L. Newton
LOL, you can come to my house any time you want. We'll drink some beer and tell fishin' stories and talk politics.
| 355 |
jaunte Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:12:18pm |
re: #344 enoughalready
So what you are saying is "I don't agree with you and therefore your choice of stories is bad since they make me look like a fool"?
Or possibly, "don't talk about people talking foolishness
if I agree with them most of the time."
| 356 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:12:46pm |
re: #348 buzzdroid
You would have been able to convince me to go, if my other choice was say home and mud farm...
| 357 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:13:11pm |
re: #355 jaunte
Or possibly, "don't talk about people talking foolishness
if I agree with them most of the time."
Thou shalt not taunt the glenn beck.
| 358 |
Gus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:13:11pm |
re: #352 buzzdroid
Put the shovel down. You're already in a hole and you're only getting deeper.
| 359 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:13:18pm |
re: #348 buzzdroid
how did they convince peasants to join the crusades?
there must be some quote from the bible that they used.having said that - i heard the other day that the english translation of the Koran is actually extremely toned down. the arabic version is actually far far worse than we can ever imagine.
GREAT logic, there!
How bout something simple, like
"Muslim hordes are sweeping into Europe and will kill your families. They have already taken over the Holy Lands"
Not sure,,, but I don't think that was a bible passage!!
GGgggeeezzz!!
| 361 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:14:07pm |
re: #345 recusancy
There's no imposition, not even "basically". If the govt is showing equal respect to the religions that wish to, for sake of our example, have a monument, then that's all it is. Like you said, it's perception. But I will say that you are right about my idea not working everywhere. It would probably go over better in city govts.
| 362 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:14:13pm |
re: #351 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Richard Goldstone is a complete asshole.
Maybe because those sites were being used to launch attacks, you dumb fucker.
I hate the UN.
what a fcking a**hole.
they bombed the mosque in gaza because all the Hamas guys were shooting from there and launching rockets from there. DUUHH!!!
how stupid do these UN guys think we are ?
| 363 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:14:34pm |
re: #329 Walter L. Newton
Well, apart from the exact quote I would certainly say that reading Joshua can give people all sorts of ideas. The God of Joshua is a rather nasty, bloodthirsty type. If you ask me.
| 364 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:14:49pm |
re: #345 recusancy
It is impossible for a govt to please everyone, it is possible, however, to respect everyone equally.
| 365 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:15:17pm |
re: #348 buzzdroid
how did they convince peasants to join the crusades?
there must be some quote from the bible that they used.having said that - i heard the other day that the english translation of the Koran is actually extremely toned down. the arabic version is actually far far worse than we can ever imagine.
First off, let's stay on subject. I don't give two shits about the Koran right now.
You make comments like "there must be some quote" which indicates that you don't know. Then how in the world did you make your first comment that they were using "slay the unbelievers" quotes to power the Crusades?
The Crusades is a complex topic and not just some comic book story or Sunday school tale.
You do know how to use google, right...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
This lack of knowledge combined with the bluster of the knowing is scary.
| 366 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:15:56pm |
re: #363 enoughalready
Well, apart from the exact quote I would certainly say that reading Joshua can give people all sorts of ideas. The God of Joshua is a rather nasty, bloodthirsty type. If you ask me.
Joshua, Judges, Samuel, etc., all full of nasty stuff, no denying it. And all of it centered on one piece of territory - tribal wars. There was no call from the Almighty to do this kinda stuff anywhere but in Canaan.
| 367 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:16:03pm |
re: #353 Guanxi88
Very few peasants, except in their capacity as servants of their noble masters, went outremer on the Crusades. Largely an affair of the nobility, with peasants, as always, dragged in against their will.
or for the promise of gold. certainly a possibility. nothing to do with christianity. i can certainly see that as a logical explanation - escape from peasant life for a life of adventure and gold in the some distant land.
| 368 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:16:28pm |
re: #352 buzzdroid
If you don't like the stories here, that's too bad. Charles can post what he wants to.
| 369 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:16:39pm |
re: #365 Walter L. Newton
The Crusades is a complex topic and not just some comic book story or Sunday school tale.
I thought it was a cereal.
Look mom, free Templar action figure inside!
| 370 |
The Sanity Inspector Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:16:40pm |
re: #316 buzzdroid
if you dig into the bible you'll find plenty of "slay the unbelievers" stuff in Christianity too.
how else do you think they convinced thousands to join the Crusades?
Christianity's record is indisputably spotted. But standing in eternal reproof of that record, crying hypocrisy and betrayal, is Christianity itself, quintessentially embodied in the example of Jesus. In the case of Islam, the charge of hypocrisy hardly applies--certainly not on the matter of religious violence. To put the issue at its starkest, there is simply no equivalent in the Koran to the New Testament's admonishment to "turn the other cheek"; conversely, there is no equivalent in the New Testament to the Koranic injunction to "kill the disbelievers wherever you find them".
-- William Bennett, Why We Fight: Moral Clarity and the War on Terrorism, 2002
| 371 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:16:49pm |
re: #365 Walter L. Newton
Also, I'd like to add, the crusades were largely economical and political in nature. But don't hit me.
| 372 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:17:11pm |
re: #364 bosforus
It is impossible for a govt to please everyone, it is possible, however, to respect everyone equally.
Correct. It's all or nothing. So display nothing and remain secular. Leave the courthouse lawn for the courthouse and the lawn etc.
| 373 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:17:51pm |
re: #367 buzzdroid
or for the promise of gold. certainly a possibility. nothing to do with christianity. i can certainly see that as a logical explanation - escape from peasant life for a life of adventure and gold in the some distant land.
by and large, most Crusaders financed their own way...with some help of course...maybe you're confused with the '49ers
| 374 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:18:05pm |
re: #328 buzzdroid
ease off on the creationist bashing. nobody cares about that.
I care about it. For me, creationists are the greatest evil and the greatest existential threat the US currently faces, and their policies, goals and attempts to ram their evil version of theocracy down the country's throat need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the sunlight.
Left to fester, uncared for and unchecked, they aim to usurp this country's founding principles and establish a tyrannical religious government at least equal to what the Taliban began implementing in Afghanistan, but probably even less tolerant. They want to gut the Constitution and replace it with the King James Bible. And they have a long-term plan to bring this about from within the constraints imposed by society and the nation's laws, by stealth, slowly whittling away at freedom and liberty.
I commend Charles for his attention to these facilitators of evil.
| 376 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:18:52pm |
re: #363 enoughalready
Well, apart from the exact quote I would certainly say that reading Joshua can give people all sorts of ideas. The God of Joshua is a rather nasty, bloodthirsty type. If you ask me.
Yes, except buzzdroid was talking about Christianity, not Judaism. Joshua was in the hebrew scriptures.
Let's not knight jump from one book to the other, from one theology to the other, from one era to the other.
Buzzdroid has no clue as to what he is talking about.
| 377 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:19:02pm |
re: #366 Guanxi88
Joshua, Judges, Samuel, etc., all full of nasty stuff, no denying it. And all of it centered on one piece of territory - tribal wars. There was no call from the Almighty to do this kinda stuff anywhere but in Canaan.
Considering the Bible is pretty much centered around Canaan one could argue that this is in fact a metaphor for the world. I.e. Canaan is the world. I am not going to do that, I am just saying that you could if you were so inclined. Personally I think that religion in the hands of people without a conscience has a tendency to turn people into Believers which is the larger problem.
| 378 |
buzzdroid Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:19:14pm |
re: #365 Walter L. Newton
First off, let's stay on subject. I don't give two shits about the Koran right now.
You make comments like "there must be some quote" which indicates that you don't know. Then how in the world did you make your first comment that they were using "slay the unbelievers" quotes to power the Crusades?
The Crusades is a complex topic and not just some comic book story or Sunday school tale.
You do know how to use google, right...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
This lack of knowledge combined with the bluster of the knowing is scary.
it goes back further than that. about 400 years previously
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
i just find it hard to believe that with such a history of religious conflict that that religion would not be a motivator in the crusades about 400 years later.
thats all.
| 379 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:19:19pm |
It begins to look as though there were plenty of warning signs that the Murdering Major was anti-US, spouting disloyal stuff about America and justifying jihadism.
But most of the media are still full of psychobabble about PTSD, or passive PSTV that he caught from patients, or even PRE-TSD.
Sadly, this man's actions will be applauded by a minority of Muslims. He will be seen by this minority as a hero, willing to risk his own death in the name of his religion. Worse still - peaceful Muslims often know who these fellow-travellers are, and don't "out" them or ostracise them.
And more widely - jihadism by Hamas and Hisbollah is supported even more widely among Muslim communities, in Europe thay have majority support..
And so it goes on.
[Link: www.breitbart.com...]
| 380 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:19:51pm |
re: #368 Sharmuta
If you don't like the stories here, that's too bad. Charles can post what he wants to.
Exactly. If you don't like it, to paraphrase WF Buckley, get your own goddamn blog.
| 381 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:20:11pm |
re: #376 Walter L. Newton
Yes, except buzzdroid was talking about Christianity, not Judaism. Joshua was in the hebrew scriptures.
Let's not knight jump from one book to the other, from one theology to the other, from one era to the other.
Buzzdroid has no clue as to what he is talking about.
actually, that never stopped me from posting...jus sayin
| 382 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:20:12pm |
re: #366 Guanxi88
Joshua, Judges, Samuel, etc., all full of nasty stuff, no denying it. And all of it centered on one piece of territory - tribal wars. There was no call from the Almighty to do this kinda stuff anywhere but in Canaan.
Nor was there any call to do any of this stuff in Christianity or Christian theology. Not with in the text.
| 383 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:20:39pm |
re: #372 recusancy
Correct. It's all or nothing. So display nothing and remain secular. Leave the courthouse lawn for the courthouse and the lawn etc.
Both our points remain valid.
| 384 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:20:40pm |
Who's afraid of the Tea Parties? Nobody.
'We came for her': Health-reform protest becomes Bachmann love-in — and Democrats insist they love that, too
As the tea party revelers relished in Bachmann's rising star, so, too, did the Democrats — who see the Minnesota representative's ascension to the top of the GOP as a sign of the party's weakness.
"If Republicans want to make Michele Bachmann the voice of the party, that's more than fine with us. We'll help circulate the petition," said Democratic National Committee spokesman Hari Sevugan. "It's their extreme right-wing, rigid ideological agenda that has Americans leaving the Republican Party in droves — and so, if displays like today are what they think is a smart political strategy, all we can say is: Go for it."
Dems are getting smart.
| 385 |
eon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:20:42pm |
re: #251 Bagua
They are spinning this desperately.
Greetings, Lizards. This is sort of a drive-by, but this reminds me of a conversation I had with my best bud, the E-5, just this morning.
Going back to Vietnam, and even Korea, it was noticed in Army Medical's psychiatric circles that it was often the case that psychiatrists treating soldiers back from the front with what was then known as "shell shock" or "combat fatigue" sometimes developed similar symptoms themselves, in spite of not being in combat personally. The cause was that when they listened to the same sort of problems over and over again, without letup, they began to internalize them.
An average daily case load for a psychiatrist in civilian practice is six to eight cases in a working day. Military psychiatrists may treat twice as many in a shift. Add in a six and sometimes seven day a week duty rotation, plus frequently having to stay on beyond eight hours, and the psychiatrist comes in for a lot of stress, too.
Of course, the idea is, as Harry Truman said, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen; or better yet, don't get into that line of work to begin with. To be a psychiatrist dealing with other peoples' stress, you have to be able to deal, period. From all indications, Hasan couldn't. He took refuge in a personal belief system that apparently caused hm to become radicalized, and ultimately violent; he called it "Islam", but I suspect the majority of Muslims, like the doctor at his lecture, would beg to differ.
There aren't any easy answers to something like this, anymore than there are to what happened in Orlando today. People can't handle things, and they collapse. After which, they can sometimes decide that (a) their personal problems are somebody else's fault and that (b) "getting back at" them will solve those problems, or at least (in Hasan's case) allow them to "make everybody else sorry" that they somehow "contributed" to the perpetrator's "problems" (in his own mind, that is).
This isn't "religion", unless that word is defined as "worship of the self as somehow superior and yet still being 'oppressed' by lesser beings." A better term would be rampant egotism. (Theodore Kaczsynski [sic?], the Unabomber, being one of the more obvious recent examples.)
The only solution I can suggest is a more thorough job of weeding out the potential problem cases in the education/training cycle. This is made more difficult, though, by the fact that all the testing, evaluation, etc., in the world won't necessarily tell you how a psychiatrist will react under work stress, anymore than even AIT will tell you with 100% certainty how a soldier will react when he comes under enemy fire for the first time. Only the "real thing" can do that, either way. Not only are there no "easy" answers, there might not be any really practical ones.
As for the "reluctance" of other doctors to openly criticize Hasan, part of it might be P.C. overload, but you also have to consider that "word of mouth" has ruined the careers of good people, in all specialties, before this, and not just in the military. You really can't blame the staff at WRAH for not wanting to get tarred with that particular brush, especially not when the word "islamophobia" would certainly have been invoked. And "erring on the side of caution" means different things to an individual, as opposed to a chain of command.
No, I don't have any answers, really. I just think that the first thing to do is to figure out what questions we should be asking, based on logic, not emotion.
/Just IMHO. take it for what it's worth.
cheers
eon
| 386 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:21:27pm |
re: #376 Walter L. Newton
Yes, except buzzdroid was talking about Christianity, not Judaism. Joshua was in the hebrew scriptures.
Let's not knight jump from one book to the other, from one theology to the other, from one era to the other.
Buzzdroid has no clue as to what he is talking about.
You are correct. On the other hand you are also aware that certain christians tend to argue that the Old Testament is a very important part of christianity as well and that you may find it hard to completely distance christianity from the Old Testament, especially if we are talking about medieval christianity. But this is not an argument for now, more of an argument for two big leather chairs and a large amount of brandy.
| 387 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:21:43pm |
re: #328 buzzdroid
One thing I can do at my own blog is tell people who insult me to piss off, which is what I'm telling you.
| 388 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:21:47pm |
re: #363 enoughalready
Well, apart from the exact quote I would certainly say that reading Joshua can give people all sorts of ideas. The God of Joshua is a rather nasty, bloodthirsty type. If you ask me.
Reading Archie Comic Books can "give people all sorts of ideas" ((Veronica,,, hubba hubba))
So !?!?!?!?!?!?
| 389 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:22:00pm |
re: #384 Killgore Trout
Who's afraid of the Tea Parties? Nobody.
'We came for her': Health-reform protest becomes Bachmann love-in — and Democrats insist they love that, tooDems are getting smart.
They've learned one of the main rules in a fight. When your opponent is making a mistake, let them.
| 390 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:22:05pm |
re: #348 buzzdroid
how did they convince peasants to join the crusades?
there must be some quote from the bible that they used.having said that - i heard the other day that the english translation of the Koran is actually extremely toned down. the arabic version is actually far far worse than we can ever imagine.
Right. Because we all know that the ability to speak Arabic instantly, automatically and irrevocably converts the speaker into a mindless drone inextricably bound to keeping this deceit going in perpetuity, and not allowing even a single accurate translation to ever see a printing press, anywhere on the planet. Because everyone knows that the Muslims control all the retail outlets, and all the publishing houses, and will soon control everything else as Creeping Muslim Commercialism slowly and inexorably seeps into every pore of our unsuspecting, slumbering society.
/// Massive enough to be concerned about forming a singularity.
| 392 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:23:07pm |
re: #388 sattv4u2
Reading Archie Comic Books can "give people all sorts of ideas" ((Veronica,,, hubba hubba))
So !?!?!?!?!?!?
Reading anything can give people ideas. Perhaps that is the point.
| 393 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:23:25pm |
re: #386 enoughalready
You are correct. On the other hand you are also aware that certain christians tend to argue that the Old Testament is a very important part of christianity as well and that you may find it hard to completely distance christianity from the Old Testament, especially if we are talking about medieval christianity. But this is not an argument for now, more of an argument for two big leather chairs and a large amount of brandy.
Ooh! If there's gonna be brandy, I'm there!
| 394 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:23:26pm |
re: #388 sattv4u2
Reading Archie Comic Books can "give people all sorts of ideas" ((Veronica,,, hubba hubba))
So !?!?!?!?!?!?
I read the list of ingredients from a can of soup and got ideas.
| 395 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:23:42pm |
re: #391 carefulnow
Start your own blog.
It looks more like Charles cancelled his goddamn account for him.
| 396 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:23:47pm |
re: #394 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I read the list of ingredients from a can of soup and got ideas.
So, you see the messages, too?
| 397 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:24:01pm |
I'm always surprised at lizards who seem like they should know better but then go off the handle about what should or shouldn't be discussed here. If you don't like it, stay away!
| 398 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:24:08pm |
| 399 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:24:10pm |
"I liked Jesus' style."
-Winston Zeddemore
| 400 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:24:19pm |
| 401 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:24:27pm |
re: #393 Guanxi88
Ooh! If there's gonna be brandy, I'm there!
I'd like to go if there was brandy, but unfortunately, my life, my love and my lady are the sea.
| 402 |
Gearhead Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:24:48pm |
re: #382 Walter L. Newton
Nor was there any call to do any of this stuff in Christianity or Christian theology. Not with in the text.
If your weren't an atheist, you'd make a good apologist.
| 403 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:24:49pm |
re: #378 buzzdroid
it goes back further than that. about 400 years previously
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
i just find it hard to believe that with such a history of religious conflict that that religion would not be a motivator in the crusades about 400 years later.
thats all.
Religion was a motivator. But you made a specific reference to some made up fact that Christians used a "slay the unbelievers" text as their motivation.
I am pointing out to you that there is no such text in Christian scriptures and you are wrong.
Of course, instead of thanking me for pointing that out, you go running off into other streams, talking about the Koran and now backing off and making a broader statement that "religion would not be a motivator."
Well of course it was a fucking motivator, but it was due to much more complex issues, politics and economic reasons, along with an era where religion and state was the same thing, than you incorrect statement that they had a biblical command to "slay the unbelievers."
Why don't you just accept the information that I have given you (and others) and learn something?
| 404 |
Honorary Yooper Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:24:57pm |
re: #401 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I'd like to go if there was brandy, but unfortunately, my life, my love and my lady are the sea.
Such a fine girl.
| 405 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:25:12pm |
re: #389 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Agreed. I also think that Obama is working the right by criticizing Fox news. For all the talk about Obama being an amateur I think he's playing a lot of people.
| 406 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:25:30pm |
re: #396 Guanxi88
So, you see the messages, too?
I had a T-Shirt for which read "You're all just jealous the voices talk to me!"
| 408 |
badger1970 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:26:28pm |
re: #371 enoughalready
You played Medieval Total War, haven't you?
| 409 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:26:43pm |
re: #406 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I had a T-Shirt for which read "You're all just jealous the voices talk to me!"
Another good one:
"I obey the voices in my wife's head."
| 410 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:27:01pm |
re: #405 Killgore Trout
Agreed. I also think that Obama is working the right by criticizing Fox news. For all the talk about Obama being an amateur I think he's playing a lot of people.
maybe so, but what does that have to do with helping solve America's problems?...dicking around with Fox News is juvenile
| 411 |
Gus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:27:04pm |
| 412 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:27:18pm |
re: #409 Guanxi88
Another good one:
"I obey the voices in my wife's head."
Why is it that the voices always talk about the most expensive handbag?
| 413 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:27:23pm |
re: #405 Killgore Trout
Agreed. I also think that Obama is working the right by criticizing Fox news. For all the talk about Obama being an amateur I think he's playing a lot of people.
I think the only ones talking about Obama being an amateur are those who wish it to be true.
| 414 |
A Man for all Seasons Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:27:51pm |
Good Afternoon Lizards!
Hope everyone is doing well this fine Friday..
My dog got a letter from the Vet today that it's time for his shots.. I didn't get a letter from anyone today...If he starts getting credit card offers in the mail I am so filling them out and sending them in...Then when the creditors call I can tell them Winston says to Woof-off...
| 415 |
HelloDare Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:27:54pm |
TIME Magazine also jumping all over PTSD.
Hasan had spent six years dealing with the mental wreckage of war at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington and, since July, at Fort Hood's Darnall Army Medical Center. His own susceptibility to mental problems was likely heightened because he was pretty much a loner: he wasn't married or in a relationship. After his parents died a decade ago, he seemed to become more religious. Absent close family, he spent much of his time counseling soldiers whose minds and bodies were scarred in combat.
His growing opposition to the wars — which apparently spiked when President Barack Obama decided not to pull U.S. troops out of region, as Hasan had hoped — crystallized when he received orders for his first combat deployment. "We've known for the last five years that that was probably his worst nightmare," Nader Hasan, a cousin, told Fox News. "He would tell us how he hears horrific things ... that was probably affecting him psychologically." Authorities took note six months ago when someone with Hasan's name posted messages on the Internet likening suicide bombers to soldiers who protect their buddies by diving atop a live grenade, although no formal inquiry was launched. See pictures of suicide in recruiters' ranks.
Any opposition Hasan had toward the wars could have deepened because of his constant contact with soldiers suffering from PTSD, that 2008 Army study suggested. More broadly, an Army study released in July found that major crimes have been on the rise at U.S. Army bases since 2003. It noted that crime rates — and mental illnesses — are rising with increased deployments and casualties.
Exactly what role Hasan's faith played in the shooting, if any, is unknown...
| 416 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:27:55pm |
re: #386 enoughalready
You are correct. On the other hand you are also aware that certain christians tend to argue that the Old Testament is a very important part of christianity as well and that you may find it hard to completely distance christianity from the Old Testament, especially if we are talking about medieval christianity. But this is not an argument for now, more of an argument for two big leather chairs and a large amount of brandy.
Well, I'll continue this with you. If any era was more anti-hebrew scriptures, it would be this era. The Church Fathers found almost nothing that they felt benefited Christianity in the old testament.
For them, they found it easy to distance christianity from the Old Testament.
| 417 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:28:25pm |
re: #409 Guanxi88
Another good one:
"I obey the voices in my wife's head."
I also like "Can't sleep, clowns will eat me." with that phrase repeated down the front of the shirt multiple times.
| 418 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:28:38pm |
re: #384 Killgore Trout
Who's afraid of the Tea Parties? Nobody.
'We came for her': Health-reform protest becomes Bachmann love-in — and Democrats insist they love that, tooDems are getting smart.
I mentioned yesterday that Arianna Huffington is promoting precisely this view: if you're a Republican who feels disowned by your party, we'll make room for you in our tent.
I doubt it will dislodge any card-carrying Republicans. But it isn't intended to. It's an attempt to pull moderate independents who would ordinarily vote Republican over to the Democratic side of the ballot. In other words, to capture as large a share of the enormous middle as possible.
You know - that part of the population that actually decides elections.
| 419 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:28:47pm |
re: #417 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I also like "Can't sleep, clowns will eat me." with that phrase repeated down the front of the shirt multiple times.
A classic Bart Simpson quote.
| 420 |
filetandrelease Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:28:51pm |
70 degrees outside and the sun is going down, a good night for a ride, later folks.
| 421 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:29:25pm |
re: #408 badger1970
No. I read books. They gave me ideas. ;)
(I haven't played Medieval Total War, it sounds interesting but I have up around Civ2 which I play every once in a while on a longish flight to pass the time).
| 422 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:29:32pm |
re: #413 recusancy
I think the only ones talking about Obama being an amateur are those who wish it to be true.
hahaha!...list his accomplishments as a professional politician...I judge him by his actions, not some rhetorical hopeandchange bullshit...your backhanded insult says alot about you
| 423 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:30:20pm |
re: #392 enoughalready
Reading anything can give people ideas. Perhaps that is the point.
And as I ended my post
So !?!?!?!?!
| 424 |
Four More Tears Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:30:26pm |
re: #411 Gus 802
PHOTOS: Victims of the Ft. Hood shootings
From the LA Times.
Gut-wrenching.
Wow. One of them was pregnant.
| 425 |
A Man for all Seasons Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:30:44pm |
re: #409 Guanxi88
Another good one:
"I obey the voices in my wife's head."
My favorite T-shirt was on a smoking hot girl that said:
You can't be first..But you may be next
| 426 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:30:45pm |
re: #410 albusteve
...dicking around with Fox News is juvenile
I don't think it is. It marginalizes his opponents, keeps them uniformed and makes them look like lunatics. Fox (and other lunatics) have become the default voice of the opposition to healthcare by focusing on imaginary paranoid conspiracies about ACORN and Death Panels. Obama would much rather have that than a reasonable well informed opposition. It works out great for him.
| 427 |
Gus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:31:12pm |
| 428 |
simoom Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:31:30pm |
re: #384 Killgore Trout
Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity twitter feed:
http://twitter.com/eliewieselfdn/status/5484104083
Elie Wiesel on the GOP Tea Party's anti-Semitism and Holocaust comparisons: "This kind of political hatred is indecent and disgusting"
h/t Wonkette (they seem to think the Healthcare Reform = Dachau sign from Bachmann's event may have been the final straw that brought about this response)
| 429 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:31:47pm |
re: #418 SixDegrees
I think it's a really smart strategy.
| 430 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:32:11pm |
re: #410 albusteve
maybe so, but what does that have to do with helping solve America's problems?...dicking around with Fox News is juvenile
It's pure politics. Politics is juvenile. Obama can criticize Fox News and shore up his bonafides with liberals while doing things they disagree with, it's like a freebie.
| 431 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:32:35pm |
re: #426 Killgore Trout
I don't think it is. It marginalizes his opponents, keeps them uniformed and makes them look like lunatics. Fox (and other lunatics) have become the default voice of the opposition to healthcare by focusing on imaginary paranoid conspiracies about ACORN and Death Panels. Obama would much rather have that than a reasonable well informed opposition. It works out great for him.
yes if your ambition is simply remaining in power...it's Chicago politics at best, and pretty much defeats the purpose of holding office imo
| 432 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:32:54pm |
Speaking of reading, any Wheel of Time fans out there?
| 433 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:32:57pm |
re: #428 simoom
I think the wingnuts got lucky that their event was overshadowed yesterday.
| 434 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:33:02pm |
re: #430 WindUpBird
It's pure politics. Politics is juvenile. Obama can criticize Fox News and shore up his bonafides with liberals while doing things they disagree with, it's like a freebie.
If politics is juvenile what is getting on the internet to complain about politics?
| 435 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:33:26pm |
re: #416 Walter L. Newton
Well, I'll continue this with you. If any era was more anti-hebrew scriptures, it would be this era. The Church Fathers found almost nothing that they felt benefited Christianity in the old testament.
For them, they found it easy to distance christianity from the Old Testament.
Well, yes and no. What they did was use allegories to distance themselves from certain parts (i.e. kosher laws etc) while still retaining the parts they liked. I alluded to this somewhat when I wrote that Canaan could be seen as an allegory for the world itself. But you are certainly correct about the anti-hebrew sentiments and that they had an effect on what was, if you will, cherry-picked.
| 438 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:33:46pm |
re: #434 recusancy
If politics is juvenile what is getting on the internet to complain about politics?
Masturbation.
| 439 |
Gus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:34:05pm |
re: #415 HelloDare
My compassion index is at -1000000 for this Major Hasan. The title of that article is, "Stresses at Fort Hood Were Likely Intense for Hasan." He arrived at Fort Hood in July. That's only about 3 months. The rest of his time has been spent goldbricking his way through his medical education in the US Army.
| 440 |
keloyd Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:34:07pm |
430, 410
PLUS right of center people are mixed on their opinion of Fox News. Obama can get us arguing among ourselves about Beck and that 9/12 nonsense when he critisizes Fox. Obama paid attention when he was in the fleshpots of Chicago politics; he is a brilliant tactician.
| 441 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:34:16pm |
re: #434 recusancy
If politics is juvenile what is getting on the internet to complain about politics?
A constituency.
| 442 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:34:18pm |
re: #421 enoughalready
No. I read books. They gave me ideas. ;)
(I haven't played Medieval Total War, it sounds interesting but I have up around Civ2 which I play every once in a while on a longish flight to pass the time).
I HIGHLY recommend Alpha Centauri if you dig Civ2. it's sort of a defacto sequel, same developers (Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds) and almost staggeringly deep.
| 443 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:34:29pm |
re: #423 sattv4u2
And as I ended my post
So !?!?!?!?!
If the idea you get is that Veronica is hot then perhaps your major problem is that you are 13. If however the idea you get is that it is ok to kill people then a problem occurs.
| 444 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:35:00pm |
re: #442 WindUpBird
I HIGHLY recommend Alpha Centauri if you dig Civ2. it's sort of a defacto sequel, same developers (Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds) and almost staggeringly deep.
Abandonware? Or still sold?
| 445 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:35:16pm |
re: #174 Guanxi88
Romans, though, one can sort of account for their tolerance. Mongols, though, it comes as a shock, as one doesn't expect quasi-nomadic peoples to be so damned urbane
It's a society that places a high value on self-reliance, and values the individual a great deal. I think it's natural that they would evolve and adopt an attitude about religious practices that it's basically between you and whatever you're worshiping, or meditating about, or whatever.
I love Mongols. Used to have some Mongol kids in my class. The parents were delightful to work with.
| 446 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:35:24pm |
re: #442 WindUpBird
I HIGHLY recommend Alpha Centauri if you dig Civ2. it's sort of a defacto sequel, same developers (Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds) and almost staggeringly deep.
I liked the Call to Power series.
| 447 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:35:34pm |
re: #434 recusancy
If politics is juvenile what is getting on the internet to complain about politics?
I mean political tactics can be juvenile. Name-calling, misdirection, schlocky heart-string-pulling ads, physically gaming polling access...that's what I see as juvenile.
| 448 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:35:34pm |
re: #430 WindUpBird
It's pure politics. Politics is juvenile. Obama can criticize Fox News and shore up his bonafides with liberals while doing things they disagree with, it's like a freebie.
I know what it is...it's an illustration of how far our leaders have fallen for their own selfish ambitions...I hate the feds, especially liberal donks...for all their leadership, we get cash for clunckers and trillion dollar health care fiascos...nice huh?
| 449 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:36:41pm |
re: #426 Killgore Trout
Insulting Fox also insults the viewers - most of whom are NOT Republicans.
And it is a travesty to suggest that Fox is only about ACORN and death panels. Tne ACORN stuff was justified anyway, now yesterday's news, and all the recent clips I have seen about ObamaCare focus on the insupportable cost of it all, and the mad rush to get a 2000-page bill approved in a matter of days. No mention of death panels whatsoever.
I tend to the view that the "war on Fox" was a deliberate attention to distract Fox's attention form the PelosiCare/ObamaCare mess.
| 450 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:36:54pm |
re: #434 recusancy
If politics is juvenile what is getting on the internet to complain about politics?
politicians are elected to serve the people...I just come here for free to bitch...big difference
| 451 |
captdiggs Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:37:11pm |
re: #363 enoughalready
Well, apart from the exact quote I would certainly say that reading Joshua can give people all sorts of ideas. The God of Joshua is a rather nasty, bloodthirsty type. If you ask me.
The difference of course is that you won't find Christian nor Jewish clergy ( aside from a couple of truly isolated, and oft condemned, nuts) preaching violence from the pulpit.
That type of exhortation is all too common in mosques. Not as much in the US, but quite common in the middle east.
Those that doubt this need only go to MEMRI ( [Link: www.memri.org...] ) to view many, many, videos of Muslim clergy and various muslim leaders preaching jihad.
The core problem in Islam is intolerance for those of other faiths. No, not all muslims are intolerant, but there are many who take the intolerance found in the Koran as the literal word god and therefore find religious solace in their sanctioned intolerance of others.
There are muslims who point this out. Irshad Manji , Ayaan Hirsi Ali and others who speak out at the risk of death.
To ignore this for the sake of political correctness is not helpful to anyone, least of all the muslims who suffer more for it than any other group.
| 452 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:37:19pm |
re: #444 enoughalready
Abandonware? Or still sold?
it's a ten year old game, but it's not really abandonware. it can be had on ebay and whatnot for $10 used, though. Or a new boxed copy for about what it cost new. Unless you want the Mac version. That's much harder to find.
| 453 |
Four More Tears Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:37:22pm |
re: #442 WindUpBird
I HIGHLY recommend Alpha Centauri if you dig Civ2. it's sort of a defacto sequel, same developers (Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds) and almost staggeringly deep.
Updinged for the Alpha Centauri recommendation. Civ2 was one of the best games of all time, IMHO, and AC evolved the concept. The other Civ sequels, while not bad in any sense, haven't added as much as AC did.
| 454 |
ryannon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:37:58pm |
re: #116 Guanxi88
If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him before he kills you.
Only if you've first understood that the Buddha doesn't exist. Nor do you, either. In which case such violence becomes totally beside the point: you've achieved Enlightenment and are home-free.
| 456 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:38:17pm |
re: #429 Killgore Trout
I think it's a really smart strategy.
The truckloads of people the GOP is purging from it's ranks every day have to wind up somewhere. Even if you can't get them to carry the card in their wallet, it's a good idea to fill them in on what you have to offer that may be to their liking.
| 457 |
windhorse Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:38:24pm |
I'm so glad the Democrats (who have had control of the Congress since 2006) have done such a bang up job that our economy is in the tank... our country is over run with illegal aliens... unemployment is the highest it has been since the early 1980's and all they can do is tax and spend... tax and spend...
spit.
| 458 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:38:27pm |
re: #205 sattv4u2
Atheism, however, does not preach or espouse peace and love, but then again atheists aren't engaging in actual wars to tramp out godful infidels.
Because Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin et al were just misunderstood and really swell guys!
Not fighting for atheism.
| 459 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:39:16pm |
re: #452 WindUpBird
it's a ten year old game, but it's not really abandonware. it can be had on ebay and whatnot for $10 used, though. Or a new boxed copy for about what it cost new. Unless you want the Mac version. That's much harder to find.
Actually I have an XP image on my Mac just to be able to play Civ2. Thanks for the recommendation, I will try to get hold of it as soon as possible to give it a try. Expect angry phone calls from my wife when I ignore her.
| 460 |
J.S. Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:39:25pm |
CNN update re: Fort Hood. Still unable to confirm the "Allahu akbar" claim (reporter notes that there are eye-witnesses at the scene who've made the allegation, but not yet confirmed). The reporter also noted that in tracing out what Hasan was doing in the hours preceding the incident -- apparently in the early morning hours, Hasan asked his neighbor to turn on the wireless connection for the lap top computer, Hasan used the computer (contacting who remains a question) (the person who allowed Hasan use of the computer was interviewed by the FBI for four hours and released); Hasan gave away items in his apartment, saying he was being deployed and not coming back; and then went to that convenience store...
| 461 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:39:38pm |
Uh-oh, my brain's at 5:00 and it's only 3:40. Gotta crunch out some work before my week is entirely wasted.
| 462 |
Guanxi88 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:41:30pm |
re: #454 ryannon
Only if you've first understood that the Buddha doesn't exist. Nor do you, either. In which case such violence becomes totally beside the point: you've achieved Enlightenment and are home-free.
Pari-nirvana, huh? Nice neighborhood, I hear; never been, though.
| 463 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:42:03pm |
re: #449 JohninLondon
Insulting Fox also insults the viewers - most of whom are NOT Republicans.
Not entirely true, at least the first bit. The second bit is. I've pointed out before that there's a circle of Liberals in my office who gather 'round the coffee machine to guffaw over the previous day's Beck Dreck. They think it's absolutely hilarious.
Not Republicans by any stretch. But they aren't being insulted when Fox is insulted, either.
| 464 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:42:04pm |
re: #449 JohninLondon
Insulting Fox also insults the viewers - most of whom are NOT Republicans.
And it is a travesty to suggest that Fox is only about ACORN and death panels. Tne ACORN stuff was justified anyway, now yesterday's news, and all the recent clips I have seen about ObamaCare focus on the insupportable cost of it all, and the mad rush to get a 2000-page bill approved in a matter of days. No mention of death panels whatsoever.
I tend to the view that the "war on Fox" was a deliberate attention to distract Fox's attention form the PelosiCare/ObamaCare mess.
for sure...and people keep falling for the same old sleight...so far the democrats have a miserable record going back several years, and it's no better with BO at the helm...maybe worse...Fox, the Olympics, commie carrots and dates in NYC are non issues...remember that people are dying in Afghanistan, while he's frozen into inaction
| 465 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:42:30pm |
re: #453 JasonA
Updinged for the Alpha Centauri recommendation. Civ2 was one of the best games of all time, IMHO, and AC evolved the concept. The other Civ sequels, while not bad in any sense, haven't added as much as AC did.
Yeah, Civ3 and 4 are good games, but AC is all but flawless. Oh the nights I stayed up until 6am as my Morganites slowly crawled across the globe with their mindworm shock troops...
| 466 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:42:31pm |
re: #262 saik0max0r
Mohammed Atta tried many times to get a grant to use airliners as crop dusters. After being turned down, he dressed up in a "disguise" consisting of glasses (used a different name) and yet no one in our government who interacted with him called him on it, even though if anything it should have tipped off a fraud investigation, but wrote off his odd behavior as some sort of cultural thing.
Once again, PC kills. Failure to stamp out this crap in order to spare individual/group/whatever feelings is going to lead us down this path again in the near future.
Do you have a source for the idea that Atta was not investigated because of cultural sensitivity, rather than dumbass lack of sense of threat, or bureaucratic ineptitude?
| 467 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:43:05pm |
re: #443 enoughalready
If the idea you get is that Veronica is hot then perhaps your major problem is that you are 13. If however the idea you get is that it is ok to kill people then a problem occurs.
Not unless you act on it
You see a hot waitress at the restaurant while you're away on business. You married
Do you act on the "thought" you have?
You see a wallet on the street. Theres lots of ID in there, name, address phone number. There's also $500 in cash. The "thought" crosses your mind
Do you act on the "thought" you have?
| 468 |
ryannon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:43:06pm |
re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist
Check out Sri Lanka.
Two different religions (Hinduism and Buddhism), languages (Tamil and Sinhala) and ethnic stocks. Add a long history of favoritism. Stir, and let simmer for many years.
| 469 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:43:12pm |
re: #465 WindUpBird
Yeah, Civ3 and 4 are good games, but AC is all but flawless. Oh the nights I stayed up until 6am as my Morganites slowly crawled across the globe with their mindworm shock troops...
This is sounding better and better. For me. For the wife, not so much.
| 470 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:43:26pm |
re: #449 JohninLondon
I tend to the view that the "war on Fox" was a deliberate attention to distract Fox's attention form the PelosiCare/ObamaCare mess.
Of course you do. If you knew you were being manipulated by the Dems it wouldn't work.
| 471 |
J.S. Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:43:54pm |
A doctor (colleague of Hasan who took a course with Hasan) says he's not surprised at all about the shootings, and that Hasan repeatedly stated that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were Wars Against iIslam...
| 472 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:44:25pm |
re: #268 The Sanity Inspector
Say only .01 percent of them are jihadists. Is that a negligible number?
No, but the other 99.99 percent still exist, and are entitled to respect and consideration.
| 473 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:46:05pm |
re: #467 sattv4u2
Not unless you act on it
You see a hot waitress at the restaurant while you're away on business. You married
Do you act on the "thought" you have?
You see a wallet on the street. Theres lots of ID in there, name, address phone number. There's also $500 in cash. The "thought" crosses your mind
Do you act on the "thought" you have?
Ummm. Excatly where did I argue that anyone would put ideas into action. We both know some people do. For various reasons that it would be pointless to go into here they get an idea and think that it is a good one and that it should be implemented. Sometimes the idea is "kill lots of people because X". This is obviously a bad idea. For some reason they think their action is justified. That is the force of the idea. Is that somehow an alien concept?
| 474 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:46:16pm |
re: #280 sattv4u2
You do know that there are no such statements of such in our national documents, don't you?
Why is the Establishment Clause not an expression of the same concept?
| 475 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:47:45pm |
re: #449 JohninLondon
Insulting Fox also insults the viewers - most of whom are NOT Republicans.
And it is a travesty to suggest that Fox is only about ACORN and death panels. Tne ACORN stuff was justified anyway, now yesterday's news, and all the recent clips I have seen about ObamaCare focus on the insupportable cost of it all, and the mad rush to get a 2000-page bill approved in a matter of days. No mention of death panels whatsoever.
I tend to the view that the "war on Fox" was a deliberate attention to distract Fox's attention form the PelosiCare/ObamaCare mess.
You may be correct about the war on Fox being a deliberate distraction. Obama is a good strategist, and it is good political strategy.
But it doesn't change the fact that Fox is garbage, it's yellow journalism, pablum with shiny and distracting graphics, and it has done so so much worse than just bang on ACORN. Just because they air sentiments you agree with does not make them credible. It means you're in their demo and a producer's strategy is recahing you.
View that channel and its "reporting" (and all other cable news channels, they are all foul) at your own risk.
| 476 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:48:30pm |
Fox is dangerous to the White House because it is thrashing the other cable networks, increasing its lead. It probably has as many Dem viewers in the evenings as the other networks combined.
More to the point - it attracts viewers in the centre ground.
Having watched Murdoch's empire for over 30 years now, Fox and now DirecTV are superb examples of his business brilliance.
...
And meanwhile, CNN looks like it is going down the tubes, at least in terms of US viewing.
| 477 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:49:00pm |
re: #470 Killgore Trout
Of course you do. If you knew you were being manipulated by the Dems it wouldn't work.
As a Democrat, I do believe Obama attacking Fox is part of a political strategy though!
| 478 |
Red Pencil Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:49:02pm |
re: #204 ralphieboy
I understand about watching one's back: there is Islam and Islamism, Judaism and Zionism, Christianity and Dominionism. We have to be very attentive when someone crosses the line and starts using it as a justification to commit acts of violence.
Whoa nelly, if you think Zionism is to Judaism as Islamism is to Islam, or Dominionism is to Christianity, you need to check a dictionary.
Zionism is NOT, despite some pernicious rumors floating through academia, despotic middle eastern nations, and both fringes of the American political spectrum, the belief in the elimination and/or subjugation of non-Jews (anywhere). Zionism is a belief in the desireability of a Jewish state, neither more nor less.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 479 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:49:22pm |
re: #474 SanFranciscoZionist
Why is the Establishment Clause not an expression of the same concept?
Because most people (present company excluded, I presume) never recall the SECOND part of the clause
Many many poeple actually think the term "seperation of ,,," is IN the constitution
| 480 |
zelnaga Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:50:19pm |
re: #207 Charles
I'm really trying to ignore the wingnut blogs these days, but I noticed some links from bloggers who are making a big deal out of the fact that my headline said "Fort Hood Shooter Identified as a Major". Apparently they were expecting some other M word.
I still think it's headline-worthy that he is a Major in the US Army, sorry. Even more so, now that info is coming out about the warning signs he was broadcasting.
The fact that his name is Nidal Malik Hasan is right there in my post, and I usually expect my readers to be smart enough to figure out it's a Muslim name without bludgeoning them in the face with it.
You can, of course, have a Muslim name without being Muslim. Look at our current president, Fathima Rifqa Bary, etc.
| 481 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:50:19pm |
re: #321 ralphieboy
For most Muslims, Islam is a way of life, a cultural identification and a vehicle for finding a way to lead a better life. Along with some of the nastier passages about beheading and enslaving, it contains passages on being honest, moral and generous to the poor and less fortunate.
We need to judge these people on how they go about implementing these Scriptures in daily life, not fixate on the scriptures themselves.
Are you nuts? I know six really ugly passages in the Koran that I learned on Pam Geller's website, and I know that all Muslims HAVE to believe and interpret the Koran, literally, and the way I do! Aiieee! We're all gonna die!
///
| 482 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:50:44pm |
re: #475 WindUpBird
You may be correct about the war on Fox being a deliberate distraction. Obama is a good strategist, and it is good political strategy.
But it doesn't change the fact that Fox is garbage, it's yellow journalism, pablum with shiny and distracting graphics, and it has done so so much worse than just bang on ACORN. Just because they air sentiments you agree with does not make them credible. It means you're in their demo and a producer's strategy is recahing you.View that channel and its "reporting" (and all other cable news channels, they are all foul) at your own risk.
to what end?...so he's got power, what's he doing with it?...running this country is not about Fox news, it's about making tough, decisive decisions...you are giving credit for good political strategy while the country is tanking...wtf?
| 483 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:51:15pm |
re: #475 WindUpBird
You suggest that Fox has a target demographic - the right-wing.
No No No - Murdoch's aim is far wider than that. And he hits it.
| 484 |
Four More Tears Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:51:25pm |
re: #465 WindUpBird
Yeah, Civ3 and 4 are good games, but AC is all but flawless. Oh the nights I stayed up until 6am as my Morganites slowly crawled across the globe with their mindworm shock troops...
Yeah, I saw the sun rise many times while playing those two games. The only real grief I had with AC was that the units tended to look the same thanks to the awesome system that let you customize them.
| 485 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:51:27pm |
re: #329 Walter L. Newton
Then dig. Please, quote me chapter and verse in the greek scriptures where there is any "slay the unbelievers" text?
You can't.
The Hebrew scriptures, on the other hand...
| 486 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:52:09pm |
re: #473 enoughalready
Excatly where did I argue that anyone would put ideas into action
Exactly where you jumped in [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
when Buzzdroid stated
if you dig into the bible you'll find plenty of "slay the unbelievers" stuff in Christianity too.
| 487 |
freetoken Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:52:33pm |
re: #477 WindUpBird
As a Democrat, I do believe Obama attacking Fox is part of a political strategy though!
Of course it is... and a good one.
| 488 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:53:54pm |
re: #348 buzzdroid
how did they convince peasants to join the crusades?
there must be some quote from the bible that they used.having said that - i heard the other day that the english translation of the Koran is actually extremely toned down. the arabic version is actually far far worse than we can ever imagine.
Medieval European Christianity was not, by and large, a bible-learnin'-based faith. What they said was "Go, and you get salvation, possibly property, and the Pope will bless your mission." Biblical arguments didn't come into it.
| 489 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:54:13pm |
re: #476 JohninLondon
Fox is dangerous to the White House because it is thrashing the other cable networks, increasing its lead. It probably has as many Dem viewers in the evenings as the other networks combined.
More to the point - it attracts viewers in the centre ground.
The problem is that there are a whole lot of those viewers who are tuning in to laugh their asses off.
This may not bode well for broadcast news in general. But it doesn't portend any significant threat to the Democrats, either.
| 490 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:54:14pm |
re: #486 sattv4u2
Excatly where did I argue that anyone would put ideas into action
Exactly where you jumped in [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
when Buzzdroid stated
if you dig into the bible you'll find plenty of "slay the unbelievers" stuff in Christianity too.
You mean exactly where I pointed out that there is some general nastiness in certain parts of the Old Testament and that reading that could potentially give people stupid ideas? Not action. Go back and read again.
| 491 |
captdiggs Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:54:33pm |
re: #472 SanFranciscoZionist
No, but the other 99.99 percent still exist, and are entitled to respect and consideration.
The problem is that the percentage of those who believe in jihad is much higher than .01%
If you take support of Bin laden as an indicator, even after years of dropping influence, that support ranges as high as 54% in some muslim nations.
[Link: pewresearch.org...]
| 492 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:54:48pm |
re: #482 albusteve
to what end?...so he's got power, what's he doing with it?...running this country is not about Fox news, it's about making tough, decisive decisions...you are giving credit for good political strategy while the country is tanking...wtf?
Shoring up his popularity with his base is simply what presidents do. I'm just saying the truth, that's what he's doing. I'm not saying it's good or bad, it is a thing. Every president has strategies for cultivating their base. Bush, Clinton, Bush42, Nixon, Roosevelt, FDR, Reagan, Kennedy and on and on. Whether the country is tanking or in a golden age, that's totally irrelevant to what I was saying.
| 493 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:56:16pm |
re: #487 freetoken
If the strategy was to distract Fox from its attacks on ObamaCare for a while - maybe that succeeded.
For a while. Not any more - there are remorseless attacks again on ObamaCare.
Now we see White House people popping up on Fox, which makes the WH strategy look blatently contrived.
Fox comes out of it all with bigger viewing figures, Murdoch laughs all the way to the bank - and Obama has cheapened himself by personally backing the vendetta rather than leaving it to his minions.
| 494 |
Kragar Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:56:33pm |
re: #488 SanFranciscoZionist
Medieval European Christianity was not, by and large, a bible-learnin'-based faith. What they said was "Go, and you get salvation, possibly property, and the Pope will bless your mission." Biblical arguments didn't come into it.
That was the whole reason many of the Crusader kingdoms came into being.
| 495 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:56:48pm |
re: #280 sattv4u2
You do know that there are no such statements of such in our national documents, don't you?
Article Six of the United States Constitution provides that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States". Before the addition of the Bill of Rights with it's 1st Amendment Establishment Clause, this was the only mention of religious freedom in the Constitution.
If nothing else Article Six proves (contrary to the theocrats revisionist claims) that the founders of this country wanted to ensure that no official state religion was ever embraced by government.
| 496 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:58:05pm |
re: #490 enoughalready
So you meant this I would certainly say that reading Joshua can give people all sorts of ideas. The God of Joshua is a rather nasty, bloodthirsty type. in the BENEVOLENT nasty, bloodthirtsy way!
I see now !
| 497 |
freetoken Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:58:18pm |
re: #492 WindUpBird
Indeed, it was GWB's failure to understand (or accept) that it was his responsibility to keep defending his policies and not let the national conversation be controlled by his various enemies/opponents that contributed to him into losing his political clout post 2004.
Sitting ducks lose influence anyway, but when the duck doesn't even quack once in a while...
| 498 |
webevintage Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:58:41pm |
re: #477 WindUpBird
As a Democrat, I do believe Obama attacking Fox is part of a political strategy though!
Indeed.
So while FOX and the other news channels and all the blogs are off chasing the "Oh, shiny" story, the Dems are keep doing the work of the people while the Republicans stand around saying no.
Or comparing health care reform to terrorisim.
Or put a super!sekrit hold on the Veterans’ Caregiver and Omnibus Health Benefits Act of 2009.
Or try to block an extension on unemployment.
Or lie that they do take care of pre-existing conditions in their healtch care reform bill.
Or...well I could go on and on...
| 499 |
zelnaga Fri, Nov 6, 2009 2:59:25pm |
re: #491 captdiggs
The problem is that the percentage of those who believe in jihad is much higher than .01%
If you take support of Bin laden as an indicator, even after years of dropping influence, that support ranges as high as 54% in some muslim nations.
[Link: pewresearch.org...]
From wikipedia.org's entry on Pablo Escobar:
While seen as an enemy of the United States and Colombian governments, Escobar was a hero to many in Medellín (especially the poor people); he was a natural at public relations and he worked to create goodwill among the poor people of Colombia. A lifelong sports fan, he was credited with building football fields and multi-sports courts, sponsoring little league football teams.
That the people of Medellín loved Escobar doesn't necessarily mean they approved of his methods so much as turned a blind eye to it because they were kinda being bribed to do so. Could be the same with bin Ladin.
Or maybe it isn't... I really have no clue. Just thought I'd mention it as a possibility, all the same.
| 500 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:00:21pm |
re: #492 WindUpBird
Shoring up his popularity with his base is simply what presidents do. I'm just saying the truth, that's what he's doing. I'm not saying it's good or bad, it is a thing. Every president has strategies for cultivating their base. Bush, Clinton, Bush42, Nixon, Roosevelt, FDR, Reagan, Kennedy and on and on. Whether the country is tanking or in a golden age, that's totally irrelevant to what I was saying.
Bush didn't...he pissed of his base and if there were a third election he would have lost in a landslide...but he did make tough, unpopular choices...he got it done in Iraq in spite off all the grotesque opposition from people like BO who still insisted deep into his campaign that the surge was a failure...BO is a lunatic, obsessed with his own popularity and image...that's why he's fighting with Fox and ignoring Afghanistan...shit runs downhill
| 501 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:00:41pm |
re: #492 WindUpBird
Shoring up his popularity with his base is simply what presidents do. I'm just saying the truth, that's what he's doing. I'm not saying it's good or bad, it is a thing. Every president has strategies for cultivating their base. Bush, Clinton, Bush42, Nixon, Roosevelt, FDR, Reagan, Kennedy and on and on. Whether the country is tanking or in a golden age, that's totally irrelevant to what I was saying.
I think part of it is the swiftboat lesson Kerry didin't learn until too late. If you don't counter lies and misrepresentations with the truth, people accept them as the truth.
| 502 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:01:16pm |
re: #496 sattv4u2
So you meant this I would certainly say that reading Joshua can give people all sorts of ideas. The God of Joshua is a rather nasty, bloodthirsty type. in the BENEVOLENT nasty, bloodthirtsy way!
I see now !
No, I meant that exactly the way I phrased it. God isn't a very pleasing character in Joshua in my personal opinion. He is nasty and bloodthirsty. If you disagree with that, fine. If you don't, then what are you trying to say?
| 503 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:02:05pm |
In his worldwide empire Murdoch probably employs a couple of dozen people who would have made a better job of the Presidency than Obama - or Bush.
| 504 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:02:40pm |
re: #498 webevintage
Indeed.
So while FOX and the other news channels and all the blogs are off chasing the "Oh, shiny" story, the Dems are keep doing the work of the people while the Republicans stand around saying no.
Or comparing health care reform to terrorisim.
Or put a super!sekrit hold on the Veterans’ Caregiver and Omnibus Health Benefits Act of 2009.
Or try to block an extension on unemployment.
Or lie that they do take care of pre-existing conditions in their healtch care reform bill.
Or...well I could go on and on...
so fighting with Fox news gives BO political clout?..is that what you re saying?...if so what has he done with it?...what you call clout I call popularity
| 506 |
freetoken Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:03:42pm |
re: #503 JohninLondon
No, don't agree at all. Unless one is willing to run for public office, they are not qualified at all.
| 507 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:03:48pm |
re: #373 albusteve
by and large, most Crusaders financed their own way...with some help of course...maybe you're confused with the '49ers
Of course, some of them financed their own way with gold extorted from the Jewish communities of Europe.
| 508 |
webevintage Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:04:30pm |
re: #500 albusteve
...BO is a lunatic, obsessed with his own popularity and image...that's why he's fighting with Fox and ignoring Afghanistan...shit runs downhill
Really?
A lunatic?
And you really think that the President is spending time worrying about FOX and ignoring Afghanistan? That he went to Dover AFB and met those coffins and it had no effect on him, that he does not think that the troops deserve a realistic, winnable strategy?
| 510 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:04:57pm |
re: #370 The Sanity Inspector
Christianity's record is indisputably spotted. But standing in eternal reproof of that record, crying hypocrisy and betrayal, is Christianity itself, quintessentially embodied in the example of Jesus. In the case of Islam, the charge of hypocrisy hardly applies--certainly not on the matter of religious violence. To put the issue at its starkest, there is simply no equivalent in the Koran to the New Testament's admonishment to "turn the other cheek"; conversely, there is no equivalent in the New Testament to the Koranic injunction to "kill the disbelievers wherever you find them".
-- William Bennett, Why We Fight: Moral Clarity and the War on Terrorism, 2002
That's, in my opinion, a lame way to brush the horrific history of what has been done in Jesus' name under the rug, while pointing fingers at Islam.
| 511 |
freetoken Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:05:03pm |
re: #505 albusteve
in reply to freetoken at 497
Marginalizing one's political opponent is Politics 101.
In the case of many shows on Fox "marginalize" is simply turning on the spotlight to their stupidity.
| 512 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:06:17pm |
re: #508 webevintage
Really?
A lunatic?And you really think that the President is spending time worrying about FOX and ignoring Afghanistan? That he went to Dover AFB and met those coffins and it had no effect on him, that he does not think that the troops deserve a realistic, winnable strategy?
photo ops accomplish nothing...his behavior is indefensible imo...sugar coat it all you want...nobody is dying because of Fox News
| 513 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:06:35pm |
| 514 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:07:29pm |
re: #511 freetoken
Marginalizing one's political opponent is Politics 101.
In the case of many shows on Fox "marginalize" is simply turning on the spotlight to their stupidity.
I could care less how stupid his opposition is...so what's he doing with his clout and power?...show me the beef
| 515 |
webevintage Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:07:38pm |
re: #504 albusteve
so fighting with Fox news gives BO political clout?..is that what you re saying?...if so what has he done with it?...what you call clout I call popularity
Ummm, that's not what I wrote.
By getting people within the administration to piss off FOX the WH gave the press and the blogs something new and shiny to scamper off after while the Democrats went about running the country, getting things done and ignoring the nattering nabobs of negativity.
| 517 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:08:26pm |
re: #508 webevintage
I do not beleive the President is a lunatic (or any other nasty name ( but as far as he does not think that the troops deserve a realistic, winnable strategy he was given one weeks ago and is still having "meetings" on it. A leader must make decisions. This isn't a simple one for sure, and should not have be made in haste, but he did campaign on Iraq War, no good, Afghan war, just
AND , even before McChrystals written request for more troops the President knew thats what was going to be requested
| 518 |
Capitalist Tool Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:08:57pm |
re: #515 webevintage
Ummm, that's not what I wrote.
By getting people within the administration to piss off FOX the WH gave the press and the blogs something new and shiny to scamper off after while the Democrats went about running the country, getting things done and ignoring the nattering nabobs of negativity.
What utter dismal stupidity.
| 519 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:09:20pm |
re: #468 ryannon
Two different religions (Hinduism and Buddhism), languages (Tamil and Sinhala) and ethnic stocks. Add a long history of favoritism. Stir, and let simmer for many years.
Too true, but it does undermine the idea that some religions just don't have these problems.
| 520 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:09:22pm |
re: #485 SanFranciscoZionist
The Hebrew scriptures, on the other hand...
Certainly. But, even then, the commands in the hebrew text to subjugate is regional, specific and remote, and were never seen as or interrupted as commands that span the centuries.
That's a big difference that the general commands in the Koran.
| 521 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:09:46pm |
Walter,
I know you are afk right now and I really wanted to talk about this further (on Ambrose, Augustine and dear old Urban II) but I'll hold until you are back so I can avoid seeming like a complete lunatic talking to myself.
| 522 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:09:48pm |
re: #515 webevintage
Ummm, that's not what I wrote.
By getting people within the administration to piss off FOX the WH gave the press and the blogs something new and shiny to scamper off after while the Democrats went about running the country, getting things done and ignoring the nattering nabobs of negativity.
what are democrats getting done?...their Congressional popularity ratings were single digit a year ago...you must be kidding...running the country?...yes, into the ground
| 523 |
ryannon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:09:59pm |
re: #415 HelloDare
TIME Magazine also jumping all over PTSD.
Hasan had spent six years dealing with the mental wreckage of war at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington and, since July, at Fort Hood's Darnall Army Medical Center. His own susceptibility to mental problems was likely heightened because he was pretty much a loner: he wasn't married or in a relationship. After his parents died a decade ago, he seemed to become more religious. Absent close family, he spent much of his time counseling soldiers whose minds and bodies were scarred in combat.
His growing opposition to the wars — which apparently spiked when President Barack Obama decided not to pull U.S. troops out of region, as Hasan had hoped — crystallized when he received orders for his first combat deployment. "We've known for the last five years that that was probably his worst nightmare," Nader Hasan, a cousin, told Fox News. "He would tell us how he hears horrific things ... that was probably affecting him psychologically." Authorities took note six months ago when someone with Hasan's name posted messages on the Internet likening suicide bombers to soldiers who protect their buddies by diving atop a live grenade, although no formal inquiry was launched. See pictures of suicide in recruiters' ranks.
Any opposition Hasan had toward the wars could have deepened because of his constant contact with soldiers suffering from PTSD, that 2008 Army study suggested. More broadly, an Army study released in July found that major crimes have been on the rise at U.S. Army bases since 2003. It noted that crime rates — and mental illnesses — are rising with increased deployments and casualties.
Exactly what role Hasan's faith played in the shooting, if any, is unknown...
Inquiring minds are attempting to understand.
Understanding doesn't imply pardon for acts such as these. It can mean prevention.
| 524 |
webevintage Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:10:02pm |
re: #512 albusteve
photo ops accomplish nothing...his behavior is indefensible imo...sugar coat it all you want...nobody is dying because of Fox News
Photo op?
I can't discuss the President with someone who hates him that much and assumes the worse of everything he does.
Sorry it is just a waste of both our time and energy.
Sigh...
| 525 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:10:47pm |
re: #479 sattv4u2
Because most people (present company excluded, I presume) never recall the SECOND part of the clause
Many many poeple actually think the term "seperation of ,,," is IN the constitution
Possibly, but others believe it's from the Communist Manifesto--and I am not kidding.
| 526 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:11:02pm |
re: #521 enoughalready
Walter,
I know you are afk right now and I really wanted to talk about this further (on Ambrose, Augustine and dear old Urban II) but I'll hold until you are back so I can avoid seeming like a complete lunatic talking to myself.
I'm back.
| 527 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:11:27pm |
re: #525 SanFranciscoZionist
Possibly, but others believe it's from the Communist Manifesto--and I am not kidding.
oy!
| 528 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:12:04pm |
re: #520 Walter L. Newton
Certainly. But, even then, the commands in the hebrew text to subjugate is regional, specific and remote, and were never seen as or interrupted as commands that span the centuries.
That's a big difference that the general commands in the Koran.
Interrupted?
| 529 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:12:50pm |
re: #524 webevintage
Photo op?
I can't discuss the President with someone who hates him that much and assumes the worse of everything he does.
Sorry it is just a waste of both our time and energy.Sigh...
it's certainly a waste of your time to defend BO...I want some leadership for my money...where is it?
| 530 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:13:18pm |
re: #512 albusteve
photo ops accomplish nothing...his behavior is indefensible imo...sugar coat it all you want...nobody is dying because of Fox News
Unless you count all the domestic terrorist Glen Beck is grooming.
Sorry, I have friends who went to Tennessee Valley Unitarian Unilateralist Church where a gunman opened fire on a Children's play because he wanted to kill liberals. My mom went to that church. At Adkisson's (the shooter) home they found the full works of Sean Hannity, Anne Coulter, and all the celebrities from the right wing hate machine. The manifesto he wrote and left in his car as a suicide note contained phrases that sounded like they were lifted right out of those books.
Preaching hatred like Fox News does day in and day out is only going to lead to more bloodshed.
| 531 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:14:05pm |
If the Fox vendetta was over ObamaCare - and IMHO the effect Fox was having on the views of independents - it looks like Obama is losing out bigtime :
[Link: www.slate.com...]
No wonder Pelosi is in such a dictatorial rush to get to a vote, before all the Dem reps can check things out in their constituencies, check the mood on the ground after the stuffing and huge swings in Va and NJ.
...
What if Pelosi actually fails to get the figures she needs on Sunday/next week/whenever ? And even if she does, by a very narrow margin and losing many Dems in the process - what if it all gets blocked in the Senate ?
Fox will make blustering claims about "We killed ObamaCare - we are the network to watch, the rest don't add up to a hill of beans, just a bunch of leg-tremblers and hysterical OlberPsychos who can't even do their own research.
I have seen the Murdoch press running that sort of claim in the UK "It was the Sun wot done it" over the 1992 election etc. Good cheap advertising, boosts the brand.
| 532 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:14:16pm |
re: #520 Walter L. Newton
Certainly. But, even then, the commands in the hebrew text to subjugate is regional, specific and remote, and were never seen as or interrupted as commands that span the centuries.
That's a big difference that the general commands in the Koran.
I don't entirely buy that interpretation, although I am certainly open to a text-based argument for it. Can you recommend a good one?
| 533 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:14:19pm |
re: #529 albusteve
it's certainly a waste of your time to defend BO...I want some leadership for my money...where is it?
Send me some money, I will show you the way.
| 534 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:14:19pm |
Ellipsis are the scrounge of my sanity.
Rotating title.
| 535 |
Capitalist Tool Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:14:47pm |
re: #530 Conservative Moonbat
How would you classify "the works" of Chris Matthews, that smarmy little nothing?
| 536 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:15:15pm |
re: #530 Conservative Moonbat
Unless you count all the domestic terrorist Glen Beck is grooming.
Sorry, I have friends who went to Tennessee Valley Unitarian Unilateralist Church where a gunman opened fire on a Children's play because he wanted to kill liberals. My mom went to that church. At Adkisson's (the shooter) home they found the full works of Sean Hannity, Anne Coulter, and all the celebrities from the right wing hate machine. The manifesto he wrote and left in his car as a suicide note contained phrases that sounded like they were lifted right out of those books.
Preaching hatred like Fox News does day in and day out is only going to lead to more bloodshed.
well if that's true we certainly are sunk as a society...maybe we should pull Grand Theft Auto of the game shelves to save ourselves...
| 537 |
Mike DeGuzman Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:16:14pm |
His anger was noted by a classmate, who said Hasan "viewed the war against terror" as a "war against Islam."
Dr. Val Finnell, a classmate of Hasan's at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, attended a master's in public health program in 2007-2008. Finnell says he got to know Hasan because the group of public health students took an environmental health class together. At the end of the class, everyone had to give a presentation. Classmates wrote on topics such as dry cleaning chemicals and mold in homes, but Finnell said Hasan chose the war against terror. Finnell described Hasan as a "vociferous opponent" of the terror war. Finnell said Hasan told classmates he was "a Muslim first and an American second."
| 538 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:16:34pm |
| 539 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:16:41pm |
re: #535 Capitalist Tool
How would you classify "the works" of Chris Matthews, that smarmy little nothing?
Has one of his listeners gone and shot up a church? If so, I'd sure look closely.
| 540 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:16:56pm |
re: #530 Conservative Moonbat
Unless you count all the domestic terrorist Glen Beck is grooming.
Sorry, I have friends who went to Tennessee Valley Unitarian Unilateralist Church where a gunman opened fire on a Children's play because he wanted to kill liberals. My mom went to that church. At Adkisson's (the shooter) home they found the full works of Sean Hannity, Anne Coulter, and all the celebrities from the right wing hate machine. The manifesto he wrote and left in his car as a suicide note contained phrases that sounded like they were lifted right out of those books.
Good point, so... what should be done about it?
Preaching hatred like Fox News does day in and day out is only going to lead to more bloodshed.
| 541 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:17:31pm |
re: #535 Capitalist Tool
How would you classify "the works" of Chris Matthews, that smarmy little nothing?
Masturbatory. He's a blowhard and a buffoon.
.
| 542 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:17:34pm |
re: #3 b_sharp
That's the way it always is, we only notice how close to the edge a person is in hindsight.
That is why it is virtually impossible to prevent something like this from happening.
It's not impossible, but in cases like this, one would be accused of religious discrimination because, short of direct personal threats of violence, anything can be said in the name of religion and may not be used to discriminate, as in "fire the jerk".
| 543 |
caliphibian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:17:41pm |
It doesn't matter if 99.5% of Muslims are peaceful, the rest have the weapons, financial backing and will to conduct jihads. They are the ones with the power to control the others. The vast majority of Muslims have allowed the jihadis to prosper because they are afraid to protest. They are like the "good Germans" who didn't resist Hitler until it was too late to stop him. Until most of the 99.5% get proactive and remove the jihadi threat, the outside world will never be able to end the violence.
PS: By the way .5% of 1 billion = 5,000,000 jihadis.
| 544 |
bosforus Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:17:58pm |
re: #538 albusteve
it worked for Jimmy and Tammy Fay
I don't think my marriage could afford that much make up. Oh well.
| 545 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:18:51pm |
re: #544 bosforus
I don't think my marriage could afford that much make up. Oh well.
in the end, neither could theirs!...bwahahaha!
| 546 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:19:39pm |
re: #526 Walter L. Newton
I'm back.
Indeed you are. Well, my point regarding the Old Testament in relation to the crusades:
prior to Ambrose and Augustine in (ok... hazy here) the 4th century Christianity was certainly as pacifistic a sect as the world has ever seen. The argument that Ambrose made and that Augustine expanded upon was that there was a just war, a war which even a christian could take part in. This concept was expanded upon IIRC by Pope Urban II in the late 11th century as the concept of holy war. Now there is a huge difference between jihad (which is a 'convert the unbelievers' kind of affair) and the crusades, since the latter were aimed, largely based on using parts of the Old Testament as examples, at retaking the holy places. However, this was mainly a theological debate, the people who actually did the hands on work were perhaps in part motivated by the spiritual concession stand offered by the church for anyone who took part but I think almost everyone would argue that the main driver behind the institutionalization of crusades was politics and economical forces. (Am I making sense?)
| 548 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:21:55pm |
re: #543 caliphibian
By the way .5% of 1 billion = 5,000,000 jihadis.
What's the exchange rate between a jihadi and the dollar?
| 549 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:22:16pm |
OT
a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.
Gives bend over and cough a WHOLE new meaning!!
| 550 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:22:27pm |
Yet another poll showing strong and increasing opposition to the mad rush on healthcare :
[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]
| 551 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:22:47pm |
re: #548 solomonpanting
What's the exchange rate between a jihadi and the dollar?
a box and a half of 7.56?
| 552 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:23:51pm |
re: #537 Mike DeGuzman
His anger was noted by a classmate, who said Hasan "viewed the war against terror" as a "war against Islam."
Dr. Val Finnell, a classmate of Hasan's at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, attended a master's in public health program in 2007-2008. Finnell says he got to know Hasan because the group of public health students took an environmental health class together. At the end of the class, everyone had to give a presentation. Classmates wrote on topics such as dry cleaning chemicals and mold in homes, but Finnell said Hasan chose the war against terror. Finnell described Hasan as a "vociferous opponent" of the terror war. Finnell said Hasan told classmates he was "a Muslim first and an American second."
In other words, he lied when he took his military oath as an officer.
| 553 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:23:59pm |
re: #540 Walter L. Newton
More Public criticism of Fox news in the media would be a good start. Fanning the flames of outrage the way to do is inciting acts of violence. It's yelling fire in a crowded theater.
I'd like to see the rest of the respectable media criticize and shame fox to point where nobody will advertise there.
No, I don't support a return to the fairness doctrine or anything like that if that's what you were hoping I'd say.
One day I do hope to see them sued for wrongful death or charged with inciting a riot or something.
| 554 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:24:33pm |
re: #546 enoughalready
The main force behind the Fourth Crusade was certainly economic - Venice financed 50% per cent of it, and diverted it from Jerusalem to the sacking of Constantinople. Best investment Venice ever made.
| 555 |
Capitalist Tool Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:25:00pm |
re: #539 SanFranciscoZionist
Has one of his listeners gone and shot up a church? If so, I'd sure look closely.
There's more vitriol put out by Matthews in 5 minutes than by Hannity in a month. Beck's another story, but ascribing some tripnut shooters' actions to a book's author requires a rather myopic world view, wouldn't you agree?
| 556 |
wrenchwench Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:25:04pm |
re: #543 caliphibian
At least the "good Germans" were in the same country as Hitler. Maybe the doctors Hasan worked with should have stopped him. It doesn't matter if 99.5% of doctors are peaceful...
| 557 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:25:59pm |
re: #538 albusteve
it worked for Jimmy and Tammy Fay
Senior moment: At first glance, I read that as "I worked for Jim and Tammy Fay."
Sheesh, that would be worse than me admiting that I worked for the Weekly World News (which I did, btw).
It was actually a lot of fun, but I had to move on for financial reasons. One might think this purest expression of the mass media ethos, absolute (albeit creative) bullshit from cover to cover, would at least be fairly lucrative. Alas, that was not the case.
| 558 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:27:01pm |
re: #549 sattv4u2
OT
a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.
Gives bend over and cough a WHOLE new meaning!!
It's been established that people who are unable to buy insurance will be given subsidies or a waiver. The only way to end up in jail is to be able to afford insurance but not buy it and then refuse to pay the fine.
| 559 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:27:04pm |
re: #550 JohninLondon
Yet another poll showing strong and increasing opposition to the mad rush on healthcare :
[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]
BO set a record for his swift fall in popularity...it's all catching up with him, and if he can only campaign instead of lead it will only get worse for him...his rhetorical blab has put him in a corner...taxation, stimulus, the gay community, Gitmo, rendition, Putin/Iran, Israel/Palis, healthcare...he's failed on every issue
| 561 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:28:10pm |
re: #546 enoughalready
Indeed you are. Well, my point regarding the Old Testament in relation to the crusades:
prior to Ambrose and Augustine in (ok... hazy here) the 4th century Christianity was certainly as pacifistic a sect as the world has ever seen. The argument that Ambrose made and that Augustine expanded upon was that there was a just war, a war which even a christian could take part in. This concept was expanded upon IIRC by Pope Urban II in the late 11th century as the concept of holy war. Now there is a huge difference between jihad (which is a 'convert the unbelievers' kind of affair) and the crusades, since the latter were aimed, largely based on using parts of the Old Testament as examples, at retaking the holy places. However, this was mainly a theological debate, the people who actually did the hands on work were perhaps in part motivated by the spiritual concession stand offered by the church for anyone who took part but I think almost everyone would argue that the main driver behind the institutionalization of crusades was politics and economical forces. (Am I making sense?)
I'm not sure why we are going further into this. I agree, in principle with what you have related above.
My original comment to Buzzoid (may he rest in peace) was simply about certain language that cannot be found in the greek biblical texts, language that he claimed was there.
That's all, that was it, the total extent of my comment to him. Buzzoid started to go into the Koran issue and then broaden his statement in an effort to wiggle out of his initial comment.
There's no argument here between what I said and what you are saying.
| 562 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:28:49pm |
re: #559 albusteve
I know you can't see it but he's doing just fine. If you're right then he'll be a one term president, problem solved.
| 563 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:29:20pm |
| 564 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:29:41pm |
re: #561 Walter L. Newton
I'm not sure why we are going further into this. I agree, in principle with what you have related above.
My original comment to Buzzoid (may he rest in peace) was simply about certain language that cannot be found in the greek biblical texts, language that he claimed was there.
That's all, that was it, the total extent of my comment to him. Buzzoid started to go into the Koran issue and then broaden his statement in an effort to wiggle out of his initial comment.
There's no argument here between what I said and what you are saying.
Hell, I don't know. I always tend to go off on some tangent and apparently I have done it again. My apologies.
| 565 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:30:03pm |
re: #557 Shiplord Kirel
Senior moment: At first glance, I read that as "I worked for Jim and Tammy Fay."
Sheesh, that would be worse than me admiting that I worked for the Weekly World News (which I did, btw).It was actually a lot of fun, but I had to move on for financial reasons. One might think this purest expression of the mass media ethos, absolute (albeit creative) bullshit from cover to cover, would at least be fairly lucrative. Alas, that was not the case.
like moving on from the teen years...scrape off the shit and forge ahead
| 566 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:30:04pm |
re: #553 Conservative Moonbat
More Public criticism of Fox news in the media would be a good start. Fanning the flames of outrage the way to do is inciting acts of violence. It's yelling fire in a crowded theater.
I'd like to see the rest of the respectable media criticize and shame fox to point where nobody will advertise there.
No, I don't support a return to the fairness doctrine or anything like that if that's what you were hoping I'd say.
One day I do hope to see them sued for wrongful death or charged with inciting a riot or something.
I wasn't hoping you would say anything in particular. I didn't have to bait you into saying anything, you said it all for yourself. You would like to see them stop.
| 567 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:30:24pm |
re: #555 Capitalist Tool
There's more vitriol put out by Matthews in 5 minutes than by Hannity in a month. Beck's another story, but ascribing some tripnut shooters' actions to a book's author requires a rather myopic world view, wouldn't you agree?
Matthews put out nothing but hot air. If you were talking about Olberman I'd disagree with you but concede he could be interpreted that way. Matthews adds nothing of value to the debate for either the right or the left.
| 568 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:31:18pm |
re: #558 Conservative Moonbat
It's been established that people who are unable to buy insurance will be given subsidies or a waiver. The only way to end up in jail is to be able to afford insurance but not buy it and then refuse to pay the fine.
Think about what you just posted
In the United States of America, land of the free and home of the brave, the government MANDATES that you purchase a product or be jailed
Please don't respond for awhile with the "it's for the good of the people,,, healthier people are good for the country"
Let what I posted sink in for a moment
| 569 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:31:22pm |
re: #564 enoughalready
Hell, I don't know. I always tend to go off on some tangent and apparently I have done it again. My apologies.
I understand, and please understand, I was not "yelling" at you or anything. I was agreeing with you (mostly, I could argue some of your points).
| 570 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:31:22pm |
re: #557 Shiplord Kirel
Senior moment: At first glance, I read that as "I worked for Jim and Tammy Fay."
Sheesh, that would be worse than me admiting that I worked for the Weekly World News (which I did, btw).It was actually a lot of fun, but I had to move on for financial reasons. One might think this purest expression of the mass media ethos, absolute (albeit creative) bullshit from cover to cover, would at least be fairly lucrative. Alas, that was not the case.
I loved the WWN, and was crushed when it ceased circulation. I see that it has reappeared in a Web-only version, but...it's just not the same as getting your cold, hard facts permanently imprinted on paper in one of tens of millions of copies distributed across the land every week.
I had hoped to seek employment there during retirement, accepting a modest salary in exchange for the pleasure of bring the truth to such a wide audience, but now I'm not so sure.
| 571 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:32:00pm |
re: #555 Capitalist Tool
There's more vitriol put out by Matthews in 5 minutes than by Hannity in a month. Beck's another story, but ascribing some tripnut shooters' actions to a book's author requires a rather myopic world view, wouldn't you agree?
Hannity and Matthews are different shows with different formats. Matthews' format is more confrontational, and a totally guest driven show that demands arguments to fulfill the format. Hence, tons of vitriol. Hannity is more of a charismatic talker format like Savage or Limbaugh. I think Hannity and Matthews are both full of shit, but they're completely different styles of shit. ;-)
| 572 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:32:48pm |
re: #559 albusteve
The main reason for Obama's dramatic fall in popularity - just LOOK at those huge swings in NJ and Va - is that people now recognise that his whole campaign was based on a lie.
He portrayed himself as post-partisan - the Great Healer. But most of his focus since winning has been hard-left, and his methods look hard-left too.
He dug his own hole, threw away (so far) the great chance he was given.
I can only assume that this is because the man is arrogant to a fault. I have watched US politics since the last Eisenhower years, and I have never seen anything so damned incompetent.
| 573 |
Capitalist Tool Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:33:48pm |
re: The Crusades
Could be wrong, but not really sure if it mattered that most Europeans during that time were Christian rather than Urantians, when the Moslems were at the gates of Vienna, they'd finally had enough.
To this day, a broad tenet of Islam is that any land once conquered, even if now lost, is really theirs, as the figurative subjugation of Spain after 9/11 once again demonstrated.
| 574 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:33:50pm |
re: #562 Killgore Trout
I know you can't see it but he's doing just fine. If you're right then he'll be a one term president, problem solved.
where is the tangible evidence of his fineness?...there isn't any
| 575 |
swamprat Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:33:54pm |
re: #543 caliphibian
Lotta old socks coming out. You can do a "control F" search and go right up the page finding deleted comments of posters with few posts and a year or better membership.
What is your other (banned or current), nic?
| 577 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:34:49pm |
re: #572 JohninLondon
I have watched US politics since the last Eisenhower years, and I have never seen anything so damned incompetent.
Must be the "Change" we heard so much about.
| 578 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:34:52pm |
What I want to know is why the military keeps a lousy psychiatrist whose colleagues call him a shitbag or douchebag or whatever "blankbag" stands for in NPR-speak, transfers him around, lets him give "medical lectures" about Koranic hellfire, and then wonders what went wrong when he cracks.
Seems like multiple people were asleep at the wheel, here.
| 579 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:35:11pm |
Michelle Malkin’s journey from ideas to tribes
A former Seattle Times colleague wonders what happened to the libertarian provocateur who used to engage him at their adjoining office doors.
By Ross Anderson
She’s increasingly partisan and combative. In consecutive columns this fall, she attacks, in order, Obama’s cronyism, ACORN and the hypocrisy of mainstream media, ACORN again, Obama’s message to school kids, Obama’s pitch for the Olympics, Michelle Obama’s pitch for same, Obama’s health-care plan, ACORN again, Obama again, ACORN again …. Day after day, it’s the same targets, the same complaints, the same verbiage — corruption and cronyism, scandal and socialism. She snarls at Democrats, at any Republican (like New York’s Dede Scozzafava) who dares associate with them, and at rival columnists such as David Brooks, whose sin is to harbor some admiration for his president.
This is not the intellectual debate we once engaged in. It’s tribalism, my people versus your people. I’m right and anybody who disagrees is ignorant or corrupt or both.
...
Malkin’s problem plagues pundits at both ends of the spectrum. It is not a lack of civility; it’s her utter predictability, and the lack of ideas.
...
Ideas are risky. Tell readers what you think, and you’re liable to make at least half of them mad. Tribalism is easy, and it sells — albeit mostly to the choir.
| 580 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:35:17pm |
re: #558 Conservative Moonbat
It's been established that people who are unable to buy insurance will be given subsidies or a waiver. The only way to end up in jail is to be able to afford insurance but not buy it and then refuse to pay the fine.
Whoa... I almost missed that. So, punitive damages, enforced by the government if I don't want to be healthy.
Progressives are fine with asking the government to stay away from the rights a woman has to do what they want with their bodies, ei: abortion.
Progressives are fine with wanting to be able to ingest pot and certain other recreational drugs without interference from the government.
So, what's the difference here? Don't tell me what I have to do with my health. Leave my body alone.
| 581 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:35:17pm |
re: #566 Walter L. Newton
I wasn't hoping you would say anything in particular. I didn't have to bait you into saying anything, you said it all for yourself. You would like to see them stop.
I'd like to see them act like responsible citizens and journalists and not propagandists. The press has an important role in society and they are abusing it, IMHO.
| 582 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:35:50pm |
re: #574 albusteve
where is the tangible evidence of his fineness?...there isn't any
There may be some tangible evidence in November of 2012! Guess we'll find out, won't we?
| 583 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:36:01pm |
re: #572 JohninLondon
I have watched US politics since the last Eisenhower years, and I have never seen anything so damned incompetent.
You slept through the entire Carter Presidency?
| 584 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:36:33pm |
| 585 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:37:23pm |
re: #574 albusteve
where is the tangible evidence of his fineness?...there isn't any
Stock market is up something like 30%. Saved our financial infrastructure and our economy. My guess is that things will continue to improve.
| 586 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:37:30pm |
re: #578 Cato the Elder
What I want to know is why the military keeps a lousy psychiatrist whose colleagues call him a shitbag or douchebag or whatever "blankbag" stands for in NPR-speak, transfers him around, lets him give "medical lectures" about Koranic hellfire, and then wonders what went wrong when he cracks.
Seems like multiple people were asleep at the wheel, here.
foresight is not in the budget apparently...even so he expressed himself quite clearly at times...our primo armed forces sure took a hit
| 587 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:37:47pm |
re: #581 Conservative Moonbat
I'd like to see them act like responsible citizens and journalists and not propagandists. The press has an important role in society and they are abusing it, IMHO.
Because ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN are so responsible and journalistic and non propogandists!
/
| 588 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:37:55pm |
re: #570 SixDegrees
I loved the WWN, and was crushed when it ceased circulation. I see that it has reappeared in a Web-only version, but...it's just not the same as getting your cold, hard facts permanently imprinted on paper in one of tens of millions of copies distributed across the land every week.
I had hoped to seek employment there during retirement, accepting a modest salary in exchange for the pleasure of bring the truth to such a wide audience, but now I'm not so sure.
You might remember a series of WWN stories about lost WW2 planes being found in distinctly odd locales: A TBM Avenger in Earth orbit, a B-26 Marauder on the Moon, and (most amazingly) a pristine B-29 Superfortress on the sands of Mars. A certain aviation writer commented that whoever wrote these must be knowledgeable about the subject, since the longer-range planes were farther away.
There was a reason for that and it was indeed a pretty astute observation.
| 589 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:38:12pm |
re: #580 Walter L. Newton
Whoa... I almost missed that. So, punitive damages, enforced by the government if I don't want to be healthy.
Progressives are fine with asking the government to stay away from the rights a woman has to do what they want with their bodies, ei: abortion.
Progressives are fine with wanting to be able to ingest pot and certain other recreational drugs without interference from the government.
So, what's the difference here? Don't tell me what I have to do with my health. Leave my body alone.
It's not a mandate to be healthy. It's a mandate to pay into a pool. Same goes for taxes on other things. There's no mandate to drive on a road but you still have to pay taxes to pay for it.
| 590 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:38:15pm |
re: #568 sattv4u2
Think about what you just posted
In the United States of America, land of the free and home of the brave, the government MANDATES that you purchase a product or be jailed
Please don't respond for awhile with the "it's for the good of the people,,, healthier people are good for the country"
Let what I posted sink in for a moment
You're required to buy auto insurance too. I don't recall many people kicking and screaming when that went down. The reasoning is the same. It's to make sure everybody is able to cover the costs when there is an accident.
| 591 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:38:38pm |
re: #585 Killgore Trout
Stock market is up something like 30%. Saved our financial infrastructure and our economy. My guess is that things will continue to improve.
God Bless TRAP
Now for the OTHER shoe,, INFLATION
God Damn Stimulus
| 592 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:38:51pm |
re: #568 sattv4u2
Think about what you just posted
In the United States of America, land of the free and home of the brave, the government MANDATES that you purchase a product or be jailed
Please don't respond for awhile with the "it's for the good of the people,,, healthier people are good for the country"
Let what I posted sink in for a moment
This is a rather venal way to avoid calling the mandate what it is: a tax. The Dems are somewhat hamstrung by 0bama's campaign and subsequent promises not to raise taxes and to produce a system that is revenue neutral; to hew to this, the Dems have to resort to a lot of shell games like relabeling taxes as something other than a walking, quacking tax, and allowing tax cuts in place for several years to expire, referring to the resulting increase as "normalizing" taxes.
Look for more such shenanigans in the future.
| 593 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:38:58pm |
re: #590 Conservative Moonbat
You're required to buy auto insurance too. I don't recall many people kicking and screaming when that went down. The reasoning is the same. It's to make sure everybody is able to cover the costs when there is an accident.
Another good analogy.
| 594 |
Capitalist Tool Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:39:31pm |
re: #583 sattv4u2
I have watched US politics since the last Eisenhower years, and I have never seen anything so damned incompetent.
You slept through the entire Carter Presidency?
you are a typing gunslinger, so quick on the trigger and beating all other people to the punch
| 595 |
Dr. Shalit Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:39:43pm |
Everyone -
When do we get to start calling the addled Major - "HASAN-HASAN" in the tradition of the still livning and breahting "SIHAN-SIRHAN? That is all.
-S-
| 596 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:39:53pm |
re: #589 recusancy
It's not a mandate to be healthy. It's a mandate to pay into a pool. Same goes for taxes on other things. There's no mandate to drive on a road but you still have to pay taxes to pay for it.
No I don't. By not driving. I don't have to drive. I don't have to own a car. It's not the same. I don't have to pay a tax if I have health insurance. Who is that like other taxes. What other taxes do I have NOT to pay if I purchase something else?
| 597 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:40:01pm |
re: #576 checked08
ODS in full swing :(
I got my popcorn and my artificail butter topping. ODS is actually becoming fun to watch, in sort of a grim gallow's humor way. At first it was frustrating, but now I'm zen with it. This is politics in America. If Obama is re-elected in 2012, watch for it to triple in intensity.
| 598 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:40:48pm |
re: #596 Walter L. Newton
So you don't pay taxes at all? Which therefore go to construct roads?
| 599 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:41:02pm |
re: #590 Conservative Moonbat
You're required to buy auto insurance too. I don't recall many people kicking and screaming when that went down. The reasoning is the same. It's to make sure everybody is able to cover the costs when there is an accident.
Only if you want to drive. If I don't want to drive, no one makes me contribute to a pool because I refuse to drive and purchase auto insurance.
| 600 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:41:28pm |
re: #589 recusancy
It's not a mandate to be healthy. It's a mandate to pay into a pool. Same goes for taxes on other things. There's no mandate to drive on a road but you still have to pay taxes to pay for it.
Those fascists who demand car licensing fees and auto insurance! It's like Nazi Muslim Hitlermany around here!
/sarcophagus
| 601 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:41:54pm |
re: #591 sattv4u2
God Bless TRAP
Now for the OTHER shoe,, INFLATION
God Damn Stimulus
I know, what happens when we don't get hyperinflation? I know that it's the wish of many wingnuts because it will mean an Obama failure but do you really believe it? I mean Really believe it. Are you dumping all of your cash and investments and buying gold bars? I don't think that you are. You are holding cash and investing just like everyone else because even the people screaming about hyperinflation don't believe it any more than people panicked by fascism.
| 602 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:42:01pm |
re: #590 Conservative Moonbat
You're required to buy auto insurance too. I don't recall many people kicking and screaming when that went down. The reasoning is the same. It's to make sure everybody is able to cover the costs when there is an accident.
Bad anaology
My auto insurance doesn't cover yearly tune ups (physicals)
My auto insurance doesn't cover new shocks (knee replacement)
My auto insurance doesn't cover oil changes (transfusions)
I can get auto insurance that only covers OTHER peoples property damage that I inflict (if I total my own car ,, no $$$)
| 603 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:42:07pm |
re: #588 Shiplord Kirel
You might remember a series of WWN stories about lost WW2 planes being found in distinctly odd locales: A TBM Avenger in Earth orbit, a B-26 Marauder on the Moon, and (most amazingly) a pristine B-29 Superfortress on the sands of Mars. A certain aviation writer commented that whoever wrote these must be knowledgeable about the subject, since the longer-range planes were farther away.
There was a reason for that and it was indeed a pretty astute observation.
LOL.
| 604 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:42:08pm |
re: #596 Walter L. Newton
Health insurance is a tax enacted by health insurance companies.
| 606 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:42:27pm |
re: #600 WindUpBird
Gee thanks, now I have cough syrup all over my screen. Grrr.
| 607 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:42:29pm |
re: #599 Walter L. Newton
Only if you want to drive. If I don't want to drive, no one makes me contribute to a pool because I refuse to drive and purchase auto insurance.
So what happens in an emergency? If the ER is part of the pool, where do you go?
| 608 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:42:53pm |
re: #585 Killgore Trout
Stock market is up something like 30%. Saved our financial infrastructure and our economy. My guess is that things will continue to improve.
please Killgore...BO had little to do with either...his stimulus has hardly been spent...the market is recovering in spite of 10%+ unemployment...and he played the biggest role in the fall of the market with his ridiculous spending policies, creating a fear and insecurity that has yet to dissipate...you are spinning the facts.
| 609 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:43:06pm |
re: #598 recusancy
So you don't pay taxes at all? Which therefore go to construct roads?
The is not one single law in this country, presently, that tell me if I don't purchase something, that I will have to pay into a pool, as a penalty for not purchasing that item or service.
Have you read the bill... I have... it's called a penalty, as if I have done something wrong. And it would be part of the IRS code, therefore punishable by prison if need be.
Fuck that shit.
| 610 |
swamprat Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:43:28pm |
You can always tell Italians by their charming sense of taste.
You can always tell A German by his efficient lack of waste.
You can always tell A Frenchman by his elegance and such.
You can always tell the British,
"cause he's just like johninlondon
| 611 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:43:49pm |
re: #595 Dr. Shalit
Everyone -
When do we get to start calling the addled Major - "HASAN-HASAN" in the tradition of the still livning and breahting "SIHAN-SIRHAN? That is all.
-S-
Why? Sirhan Sirhan is the guy's name. The same name twice in a row. Hasan has two other names. What's your point?
| 612 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:44:18pm |
re: #609 Walter L. Newton
If you don't purchase a car/taxi/bus/etc. you still have to pay your taxes which therefore go to construct roads. If you don't pay your taxes there's a penalty.
| 613 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:44:36pm |
re: #589 recusancy
It's not a mandate to be healthy. It's a mandate to pay into a pool. Same goes for taxes on other things. There's no mandate to drive on a road but you still have to pay taxes to pay for it.
The difference, as I noted above, is in the labeling. They're pitching this as a purchase - albeit a mandatory purchase, and one that you'll be sent to jail for if you don't make it - rather than what it actually is, which is a tax. It's being cloaked as a purchase to avoid using the T-word and giving the lie to the Administration's repeated pledges not to introduce new taxes, particularly on the middle class.
| 614 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:44:53pm |
re: #607 WindUpBird
So what happens in an emergency? If the ER is part of the pool, where do you go?
This issue is not where I go, this issue is not whether I get medical care at all. This issue is that the government is telling me if I don't purchase a certain service, then I will be penalized and even possibly face prison.
| 615 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:45:09pm |
re: #601 Killgore Trout
Where did I type HYPER inflation?
Do you deny that this spending/porkulus won't cause inflation?
Again,,, TARP ,, yes ,,,
Stimulus , NO , where are the jobs??
| 616 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:45:15pm |
re: #583 sattv4u2
No, I think O is worse even than Carter.
Carter was supine and complacent over Iran. But at that stage none of us recognised the islamist threat.
Decades later and when Iran is recognised as the main funder and arms-supplier of jihadism, and on the verge of having nukes - Obama seems to give them a pass, while insulting America's allies and vacillating on anything that does not fit his extreme-left agenda.
And I don't recall carter appointing a load of tax-dodgers and other nutters. Carter was a softie, but Obama should have learned the lesson of Carter.
Also - at least Carter had had some exec experience. Obama has had none - and it shows.
Even the uber-left BBC is now asking "Who is this guy, why is he in such a mess so soon ?"
| 617 |
Capitalist Tool Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:45:23pm |
There's plenty of wealth to go around if everyone would do their part,
which they don't.
| 618 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:45:39pm |
re: #612 recusancy
If you don't purchase a car/taxi/bus/etc. you still have to pay your taxes which therefore go to construct roads. If you don't pay your taxes there's a penalty.
And! If you buy any product that was shipped over land. If you exist in this country in any civilized...you reap the benefits of public roads.
| 619 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:45:49pm |
re: #614 Walter L. Newton
You don't have to purchase the service. You can just pay the penalty fine and be done with it if you like. Same goes with taxes.
| 620 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:45:57pm |
re: #597 WindUpBird
I got my popcorn and my artificail butter topping. ODS is actually becoming fun to watch, in sort of a grim gallow's humor way. At first it was frustrating, but now I'm zen with it. This is politics in America. If Obama is re-elected in 2012, watch for it to triple in intensity.
pretty weak...why don't you step up and defend BO?
| 621 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:46:13pm |
re: #615 sattv4u2
Do you deny that this spending/porkulus won't cause inflation?
Careful with those double negatives, Eugene.
| 622 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:46:14pm |
re: #612 recusancy
If you don't purchase a car/taxi/bus/etc. you still have to pay your taxes which therefore go to construct roads. If you don't pay your taxes there's a penalty.
It's a tax, not a penalty for NOT PURCHASING A SERVICE, if you don't see the difference, than I have some water front property in New Mexico for you.
| 623 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:46:46pm |
re: #619 recusancy
You don't have to purchase the service. You can just pay the penalty fine and be done with it if you like. Same goes with taxes.
If it looks like a tax, smells like a tax...
| 624 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:47:11pm |
re: #585 Killgore Trout
Real unemployment rate at 17%, worst for decades and not improving ? Debt exploding, dollar tanking ...
Yeah, sure, the guy's a great success.
| 625 |
Capitalist Tool Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:47:46pm |
I apologize to all for being so cranky and in a name- calling mood when I first hit this page a bit ago...
all better now.
| 626 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:48:07pm |
re: #580 Walter L. Newton
Whoa... I almost missed that. So, punitive damages, enforced by the government if I don't want to be healthy.
Progressives are fine with asking the government to stay away from the rights a woman has to do what they want with their bodies, ei: abortion.
Progressives are fine with wanting to be able to ingest pot and certain other recreational drugs without interference from the government.
So, what's the difference here? Don't tell me what I have to do with my health. Leave my body alone.
It's has nothing to do with your health. Healthy people paying in to insurance risk pool what pays for the sick minority to get treated. If just sick people and people at high risk buy insurance, private insurance can no longer be profitable. If you don't want single payer, private insurance with a mandate is the best way to go. Mandating that all healthy people buy insurance is how the insurance companies are going to be able to afford to cover people with pre-existing conditions and not drop people once they get sick.
It's how most of Europe runs their health care systems. It's what Sweden does and they are regarded as having the best health care system in the world according to many. It's a shock to a lot of people on the left that market based solutions are more effective than government run healthcare.
| 627 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:48:28pm |
There is no difference3./re: #622 Walter L. Newton
It's a tax, not a penalty for NOT PURCHASING A SERVICE, if you don't see the difference, than I have some water front property in New Mexico for you.
Semantics. Call it whatever the hell you want. You still have to purchase the services of a road (by taxes) whether you use the road or not. If you don't purchase that service (pay your taxes) there will be a panalty. If you don't pay the penalty there will be jail possibly.
| 628 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:49:20pm |
re: #618 WindUpBird
And! If you buy any product that was shipped over land. If you exist in this country in any civilized...you reap the benefits of public roads.
Way to miss the point
You don't HAVE to buy that product
Lets say a DVD. If you don't buy it, the gov't says you have to pay the tax anyway. You okay with that? After all, the tax money will go to improve the road the DVD traveled on to get to the store you decided not to buy it from,,AND ,, if you decide NOT to pay the tax on the DVD you decided NOT to buy, you're fined and / or sent to jail
| 629 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:49:27pm |
| 630 |
caliphibian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:49:38pm |
re #548 solomonpanting
1 jihadi = .0000000000000000000000000001% of $.01 or one Dinnerjacket speech.
re 556 wrenchwench
Yes, the doctors should have at least put his speech in his official file, but my main point is that Muslims around him in his life should have condemned his point of view so non-Muslims wouldn't have to play a wait and see game that ends in such violence.
| 631 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:49:48pm |
re: #614 Walter L. Newton
This issue is not where I go, this issue is not whether I get medical care at all. This issue is that the government is telling me if I don't purchase a certain service, then I will be penalized and even possibly face prison.
Personally I think it's not the best way to do it, but the way I'd like to do it (robust 100% opt-in nationwide public option hooked into medicare, no fines, no prison, just a solid government health care program that you opt into) is called Maoism, Marxism, socialism, Zod-ism, MingtheMerciless-ism...
I fear the "compromise" between Republicans and Democrats on health care reform will be like the divorced couple's "compromise" of sawing the family dog in half.
| 632 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:49:58pm |
re: #623 solomonpanting
Yes... It's a damn tax. But so is your health insurance. It's just a tax enacted by the health insurance companies. If you don't pay it the penalty is being shit out of luck when you get sick.
| 633 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:50:15pm |
re: #619 recusancy
You don't have to purchase the service. You can just pay the penalty fine and be done with it if you like. Same goes with taxes.
{sigh},,, see #628
| 634 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:50:33pm |
re: #593 recusancy
Auto-insurance is not a good analogy. Compulsory auto-insurance is to make sure that you can pay the costs of damaging SOMEONE ELSE else or their motor.
| 635 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:50:35pm |
re: #619 recusancy
You don't have to purchase the service. You can just pay the penalty fine and be done with it if you like. Same goes with taxes.
I'll say it again. Show me a current law that requires me to purchase a PRODUCT, ITEM or SERVICE or else pay a penalty to the IRS, a penalty, that if I refuse to pay, could result in my going to jail?
We are talking about being forced to purchase something, we are not talking about taxes. We are talking about what happens if I refuse to purchase something, not about taxes.
This is not a tax... it is a fine, a penalty, punitive, for not BUYING SOMETHING.
| 636 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:50:54pm |
re: #592 SixDegrees
This is a rather venal way to avoid calling the mandate what it is: a tax. The Dems are somewhat hamstrung by 0bama's campaign and subsequent promises not to raise taxes and to produce a system that is revenue neutral; to hew to this, the Dems have to resort to a lot of shell games like relabeling taxes as something other than a walking, quacking tax, and allowing tax cuts in place for several years to expire, referring to the resulting increase as "normalizing" taxes.
It's not a tax because the government has no hand in the transaction other than requiring that there be one unless there's a public option and that's not expected to be very popular because private options should be cheaper.
| 637 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:51:22pm |
re: #635 Walter L. Newton
You purchase something with taxes. Do you really not understand what I'm saying. I don't know how else to say it.
| 638 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:52:15pm |
re: #634 JohninLondon
That's a good point after I thought about it.
| 639 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:52:17pm |
re: #626 Conservative Moonbat
[snip]
Healthy people paying in to insurance risk pool...
[snip]
THAT"S BECAUSE THEY WANT TO PURCHASE THE SERVICE. I don't want the government telling me I have to PURCHASE a product. Show me where that is done currently in the United States?
| 640 |
Capitalist Tool Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:52:34pm |
The greatest single run- up in health care costs each year comes from fending off lawsuits, yet this legislation invokes severe penalties for any state which tries to scale back medical lawsuits.
| 641 |
ryannon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:52:50pm |
re: #621 Cato the Elder
Careful with those double negatives, Eugene.
We don't need no stinkin' double negatives.
For sure.
| 642 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:52:58pm |
re: #630 caliphibian
Yes, the doctors should have at least put his speech in his official file, but my main point is that Muslims around him in his life should have condemned his point of view so non-Muslims wouldn't have to play a wait and see game that ends in such violence
First- try the reply and quote buttons.
Second- you're assuming he showed signs to other muslims that he was troubled, and we have no idea if that's the case at all. There are numerous other examples of sociopathic killing sprees where friends, relatives and neighbors were not aware there were issues with the killer, so trying to blame his religious community for not stopping him is a bit of a reach.
| 643 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:53:10pm |
re: #632 recusancy
Yes... It's a damn tax. But so is your health insurance. It's just a tax enacted by the health insurance companies. If you don't pay it the penalty is being shit out of luck when you get sick.
At least you admit it's a tax. Upding.
| 644 |
swamprat Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:53:21pm |
re: #630 caliphibian
So it was their fault? The non-muslims who missed this idiot get a pass so you can blame the muslims?
/sniff
Something smells here.
| 645 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:53:36pm |
re: #628 sattv4u2
Way to miss the point
You don't HAVE to buy that product
Lets say a DVD. If you don't buy it, the gov't says you have to pay the tax anyway. You okay with that? After all, the tax money will go to improve the road the DVD traveled on to get to the store you decided not to buy it from,,AND ,, if you decide NOT to pay the tax on the DVD you decided NOT to buy, you're fined and / or sent to jail
yeah, but it's not just DVDs. it's everything. You pay the tax because that's how this works, that's how you have efficiency. You cannot in any practicality "opt out" of health care entirely. If you have a compound fracture or gastritis, your butt will still end up in the ER.
Childless couple still pay for schools with their taxes, after all.
| 646 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:54:02pm |
re: #640 Capitalist Tool
The greatest single run- up in health care costs each year comes from fending off lawsuits, yet this legislation invokes severe penalties for any state which tries to scale back medical lawsuits.
Sort of a band aid approach to health care reform?
| 647 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:54:03pm |
re: #637 recusancy
You purchase something with taxes. Do you really not understand what I'm saying. I don't know how else to say it.
And I don't know how to say this. You are putting the cart before the horse.
Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am fined? Simple question, give me a simple answer.
| 648 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:54:07pm |
re: #635 Walter L. Newton
I'll say it again. Show me a current law that requires me to purchase a PRODUCT, ITEM or SERVICE or else pay a penalty to the IRS, a penalty, that if I refuse to pay, could result in my going to jail?
We are talking about being forced to purchase something, we are not talking about taxes. We are talking about what happens if I refuse to purchase something, not about taxes.
This is not a tax... it is a fine, a penalty, punitive, for not BUYING SOMETHING.
We agree that this is not ideal. How would you suggest we fix health care? Just curious.
| 650 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:54:27pm |
re: #639 Walter L. Newton
U.S. Army = Service to protect your ass from the ferners.
Roads = Product to allow travel and commerce
FDA = Service so your baby doesn't drink malamine
You are forced to buy these by the government. You don't have to use them but you have to buy them.
| 651 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:54:48pm |
re: #640 Capitalist Tool
The greatest single run- up in health care costs each year comes from fending off lawsuits, yet this legislation invokes severe penalties for any state which tries to scale back medical lawsuits.
it's a mess...there is just no getting around it...people that support it are simply partisan, or truly do not care about the long range cost or govt intrusion
| 652 |
Capitalist Tool Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:55:45pm |
re: #646 solomonpanting
Sort of a band aid approach to health care reform?
more like a lawyer-aid approach
| 653 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:56:13pm |
re: #639 Walter L. Newton
THAT"S BECAUSE THEY WANT TO PURCHASE THE SERVICE. I don't want the government telling me I have to PURCHASE a product. Show me where that is done currently in the United States?
Auto insurance.
There are certain kinds of business ventures where you're required to carry liability insurance. Theme parks come to mind.
| 654 |
gregb Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:56:52pm |
I guess at some point the benefit of doubt goes out the window.
Profit, revenge, jealous, conceal a crime, avoid disgrace, or pure homocidal mania.
I guess the key question is, is he using his homicidal mania to justify his religious beliefs or the other way around?
| 655 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:57:18pm |
re: #610 swamprat
You can always tell Italians by their charming sense of taste.
You can always tell A German by his efficient lack of waste.
You can always tell A Frenchman by his elegance and such.
You can always tell the British,
"cause he's just like johninlondon
Sure.
Except I am not British.
| 656 |
swamprat Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:57:32pm |
re: #630 caliphibian
Your point seems to revolve around pushing some sort of unpleasant agenda.
| 657 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:57:33pm |
re: #645 WindUpBird
You cannot in any practicality "opt out" of health care entirely
Really? So my 26 year old single male co-worker who decided last year NOT to buy a company offered health plan and instead get that money in his paycheck each week and has a "rainy day fnd" because he's young and strong and fit and figures whatever comes along he'll deal with it ,,, HE wasn;'t able to "opt out"
Hmmm,,, and here I thought he had ,, only because ,,well HE HAD !
| 658 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:58:23pm |
re: #608 albusteve
I know you can't see it. All I'm saying is that you'll probably be screaming that the end is near as the economy continues to grow. No evidence will ever suffice but reality marches on within or without you.
| 659 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:58:28pm |
re: #643 solomonpanting
At least you admit it's a tax. Upding.
I would prefer it were just a tax. I would prefer to pay a tax that is exactly what my premiums cost now (which is quite a bit) and get more or less the coverage I get now, minus the pre-existing conditions bullshit or the recission bullshit.
The difference? If I lose my job, I don't lose my health benefits. Nor does my family.
| 660 |
Capitalist Tool Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:58:29pm |
re: #654 gregb
I guess at some point the benefit of doubt goes out the window.
Profit, revenge, jealous, conceal a crime, avoid disgrace, or pure homocidal mania.
I guess the key question is, is he using his homicidal mania to justify his religious beliefs or the other way around?
oh well, we know he has problems, but we're hoping he'll work 'em out soon,
can just picture it...
| 661 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:58:36pm |
re: #657 sattv4u2
ER... Everyone else pays for it when he needs to use it.
| 662 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:58:50pm |
re: #648 WindUpBird
We agree that this is not ideal. How would you suggest we fix health care? Just curious.
immediately remove congress from the design and structure process...they know nothing about health care and little about economics, obviously...google the GOPs proposal which actually saves money at less than one tenth the cost...read it and tell us what you think
| 663 |
saik0max0r Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:59:06pm |
re: #466 SanFranciscoZionist
"...dumbass lack of sense of threat, or bureaucratic ineptitude?"
I don't fault the bureaucracy for not sensing a "threat". Trying to defraud the government by applying for the same thing under false pretenses was good enough to snitch him off / report him to *someone*.
From what I recall, the woman who conducted the interview at the Miami Department of Argiculture wrote off his sekrit disguise behavior because he was a muslim man from Saudi Arabia who had cultural issues with doing business with women. Of course, Mohammed played the stereotype to the hilt, which reinforced her Politically Correct notions.
9 times out of 10, these guys can get busted for something other than zomg terrists! bombings and shootings, and every effort should be made to shut it down before it gets to the matyrdom phase.
FWIW, I now use the "KKK guy" test to debug these things. Basically, if you start rationalizing someone's odd behavior based on religious or ethnicity, try to imagine if that guy was a KKK member doing the same thing. If the creepy bells start ringing, your subconcious cultural indoctrination is messing with your reality processing and you should really get that fixed.
I personally recommend LSD, but YMMV.
| 664 |
gregb Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:59:14pm |
re: #653 Conservative Moonbat
Auto insurance.
There are certain kinds of business ventures where you're required to carry liability insurance. Theme parks come to mind.
There was a trend years ago to go to a no-fault insurance model. They voted it down in California. It was just a way for the state government not to have to enforce the driving laws for illegals.
| 665 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:59:54pm |
re: #661 recusancy
ER... Everyone else pays for it when he needs to use it.
ER ,,, the gov't isn't fining and jailing him for NOT having it
ER!
| 666 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:59:54pm |
re: #642 Sharmuta
First- try the reply and quote buttons.
Second- you're assuming he showed signs to other muslims that he was troubled, and we have no idea if that's the case at all. There are numerous other examples of sociopathic killing sprees where friends, relatives and neighbors were not aware there were issues with the killer, so trying to blame his religious community for not stopping him is a bit of a reach.
Yeah, right. His colleagues were freaked out by him, called him a douchebag or whatever, but everyone else around him thought he smelled like a rose.
Sorry, Sharm, that doesn't pass the sniff test. Someone in his circle should have dropped a dime on him.
And somebody in the hierarchy should have booted him out of the military. But apparently the best fighting forces in the world can't afford to fire a third-rate shrink with multiple warnings, one who was described as "disinterested" in his work.
Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy about the excellent treatment our men and women in uniform can expect. Not.
| 667 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 3:59:59pm |
re: #648 WindUpBird
We agree that this is not ideal. How would you suggest we fix health care? Just curious.
No, you answer my question, my comment, first, before we go off on some other part of the topic.re: #653 Conservative Moonbat
Auto insurance.
There are certain kinds of business ventures where you're required to carry liability insurance. Theme parks come to mind.
I don't have to own or open a theme park.
Look, this is a tax, a penalty, a fine, whatever you want to call it, that will be required to be paid by everyone, anyone, if they refuse to carry some health insurance product.
I'll ask again.
Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am fined? Simple question, give me a simple answer.
| 668 |
swamprat Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:01:10pm |
re: #655 JohninLondon
That is such a relief.
Now when I see America studied like some bacteria in a petre dish, I can just feel disdain for you.
| 669 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:01:19pm |
| 670 |
enoughalready Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:01:40pm |
OT:
yay! I got myself a copy of Alpha Centauri. $7. So much for rampant inflation. (note: joke. The inflation part that is. I actually bought the game.)
| 671 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:01:57pm |
re: #659 WindUpBird
I would prefer it were just a tax. I would prefer to pay a tax that is exactly what my premiums cost now (which is quite a bit) and get more or less the coverage I get now, minus the pre-existing conditions bullshit or the recission bullshit.
The difference? If I lose my job, I don't lose my health benefits. Nor does my family.
I'm curious as to what a "catastrophic only" insurance plan would cost the country as a whole, with additional benefits an option for those who desire them.
| 672 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:02:10pm |
re: #650 recusancy
U.S. Army = Service to protect your ass from the ferners.
Roads = Product to allow travel and commerce
FDA = Service so your baby doesn't drink malamineYou are forced to buy these by the government. You don't have to use them but you have to buy them.
I'll say it again. Those are general tax funds that are divided among those services. I am not required to use them or make use of them.
Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am fined?
Simple question, give me a simple answer.
| 673 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:02:32pm |
re: #665 sattv4u2
Your right.. But we're fined for him not having by healthcare costs rising to subsidize him.
| 674 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:02:38pm |
re: #658 Killgore Trout
I know you can't see it. All I'm saying is that you'll probably be screaming that the end is near as the economy continues to grow. No evidence will ever suffice but reality marches on within or without you.
so condescending, but I don't mind...we'll see won't we?
| 675 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:04:20pm |
re: #614 Walter L. Newton
This issue is not where I go, this issue is not whether I get medical care at all. This issue is that the government is telling me if I don't purchase a certain service, then I will be penalized and even possibly face prison.
Actually, IIRC, I think our Social Security (FICA) withholding is a required insurance purchase.
24hrs is up.
| 676 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:05:06pm |
re: #657 sattv4u2
You cannot in any practicality "opt out" of health care entirely
Really? So my 26 year old single male co-worker who decided last year NOT to buy a company offered health plan and instead get that money in his paycheck each week and has a "rainy day fnd" because he's young and strong and fit and figures whatever comes along he'll deal with it ,,, HE wasn;'t able to "opt out"
Hmmm,,, and here I thought he had ,, only because ,,well HE HAD !
People doing stuff like that is why insurance is so costly right now. It's healthy people paying into the risk pool that allows insurance to cover sick people. If there are fewer healthy people paying in, the price of insurance goes up.
I don't favor mandates but will accept them. The fact Obama was opposed to them in the primaries is part of why I ended up voting for him over Hillary. Requiring them is largely a concession to the insurance lobby. I'd prefer a "medicaid for all" type solution or even single payer. The only thing I'm not down with is true socialized medicine where are health care providers are government employees.
| 677 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:05:15pm |
re: #672 Walter L. Newton
U.S. Army = Service to protect your ass from the ferners.
Roads = Product to allow travel and commerce
FDA = Service so your baby doesn't drink malamineYou are forced to buy these by the government. You don't have to use them but you have to buy them.
I'll say it again. Those are general tax funds that are divided among those services. I am not required to use them or make use of them.
Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am fined?
Simple question, give me a simple answer.
Dude. Did you not read what I wrote? See bolded. Whether they're in a 'general fund' or not you're still paying for them.
| 679 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:05:39pm |
re: #672 Walter L. Newton
I'll say it again. Those are general tax funds that are divided among those services. I am not required to use them or make use of them.
Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am fined?
Simple question, give me a simple answer.
Try deducting the military percentage from your taxes and telling the IRS you don't want to pay for bombs.
You are forced to buy bombs.
| 680 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:05:58pm |
Why Obama loves Fox...
Ron Paul and Ron Paul on the Glenn Beck Show 11-6-09 w/ Judge Napalitano: RP2012
| 681 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:06:00pm |
re: #658 Killgore Trout
Right...the future of the economy under 0bama is all roses and prancing unicorns.
I'll be curious to see if this 'jobless recovery' continues should cap and trade, Card check or 0bamacare pass...or if it will be a jobless something else.
| 682 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:06:17pm |
re: #658 Killgore Trout
I know you can't see it. All I'm saying is that you'll probably be screaming that the end is near as the economy continues to grow. No evidence will ever suffice but reality marches on within or without you.
This, from the guy that insists the economy is recovering because of Big Stimulus, even though the upturn started before Stimulus Bill we
A) written
B) dollar one was in the pipeline
and continues to rebound despite
C) over 90% of the monies won;t even begin to be spent until 3rd Q 2010 (wow ,,, isn;'t there an election right about then??? coincidence !?!?!?)
| 683 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:07:13pm |
re: #668 swamprat
That is such a relief.
Now when I see America studied like some bacteria in a petre dish, I can just feel disdain for you.
That's a pretty puerile remark
| 684 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:07:13pm |
re: #680 Killgore Trout
Why Obama loves Fox...
Ron Paul and Ron Paul on the Glenn Beck Show 11-6-09 w/ Judge Napalitano
There are two Ron Pauls? We're doomed...
| 685 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:07:26pm |
re: #657 sattv4u2
You cannot in any practicality "opt out" of health care entirely
Really? So my 26 year old single male co-worker who decided last year NOT to buy a company offered health plan and instead get that money in his paycheck each week and has a "rainy day fnd" because he's young and strong and fit and figures whatever comes along he'll deal with it ,,, HE wasn;'t able to "opt out"
Hmmm,,, and here I thought he had ,, only because ,,well HE HAD !
I am still correct. if your friend's rainyday fund is depleted, he will still get treatment at an ER.
How big IS his rainyday fund? $20,000? $100,000? My partner had a hernia, that cost us thousands of dollars to treat. And he had some insurance, it just didn't cover much. How much do you think a stay in the hospital costs? Per night? How much do you think emergency surgery costs? I hit my head once, passed out, so my friends called an ambulance. Before I had insurance. The ambulance ride and the ER visit (needed 6 stitches) was over a thousand bucks, and I was barely in the ER at all. Imagine if I had broken something!
Is your friend so young and strong that if a Ford F150 clips him at a crosswalk in a hit-and-run, he'll just shrug off the fractured skull, broken ribs, persistent vertigo, and internal injuries? He'll tough it out? Happened to a friend of mine who was also young and strong, picture of health. Now he walks with a cane and he'll have to likely for the rest of his life. He had insurance, but he's still essentially bankrupt.
"Rainy day fund." Hyyyeah. Whatevs.
| 686 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:07:27pm |
re: #675 Decatur Deb
Actually, IIRC, I think our Social Security (FICA) withholding is a required insurance purchase.
24hrs is up.
Now that's a good point. But once again, it is not required because I HAVE NOT PURCHASED SOMETHING.
This would be like the government saying that all people are required to purchase a helmet to wear all the time to protect themselves and if you don't purchase that helmet, you will be taxed a certain percentage of your annual income because you refuse to purchase and wear the helmet.
| 687 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:08:04pm |
re: #662 albusteve
immediately remove congress from the design and structure process...they know nothing about health care and little about economics, obviously...google the GOPs proposal which actually saves money at less than one tenth the cost...read it and tell us what you think
Show me one country where a plan like what the Republicans are proposing has worked. I can point you at a few dozen where one like the democratic plan has worked.
Do you really think health care lobbiests aren't writing half the bill to begin with? That's how we ended with mandates in the plan in the first place.
| 689 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:08:07pm |
re: #666 Cato the Elder
Yeah, right. His colleagues were freaked out by him, called him a douchebag or whatever, but everyone else around him thought he smelled like a rose.
Sorry, Sharm, that doesn't pass the sniff test. Someone in his circle should have dropped a dime on him.
And somebody in the hierarchy should have booted him out of the military. But apparently the best fighting forces in the world can't afford to fire a third-rate shrink with multiple warnings, one who was described as "disinterested" in his work.
Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy about the excellent treatment our men and women in uniform can expect. Not.
We were not discussing how the military dropped the ball with this. I responded to a person who thought his religious community was to blame for not "dropping a dime". I still say it's unfair since we have no idea if he showed signs of psychological trouble while at his mosque.
Sorry, Cato. I know people who can show one face to one crowd and another face to others. They don't always give tells to everyone they meet that they're a problem. So while there is a legitimate concern about this person and why he was left in place in our armed forces, to use this as means to impugn his co-religionists is unfair.
| 690 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:08:08pm |
re: #662 albusteve
immediately remove congress from the design and structure process...they know nothing about health care and little about economics, obviously...google the GOPs proposal which actually saves money at less than one tenth the cost...read it and tell us what you think
Nice try, Obstructionist Ollie. You know the GOP proposals do nothing. :)
| 691 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:08:21pm |
re: #681 Fenway_Nation
I think we're looking at a while before employment picks up but I think most predictions are that we're going to see economic growth continue for the next few quarters.
| 692 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:08:26pm |
re: #675 Decatur Deb
Actually, IIRC, I think our Social Security (FICA) withholding is a required insurance purchase.
24hrs is up.
which the feds promptly looted...you just can't trust them
| 693 |
Spare O'Lake Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:09:08pm |
re: #674 albusteve
so condescending, but I don't mind...we'll see won't we?
I think it was just a fucked up quote from George Harrison.
| 694 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:09:48pm |
re: #692 albusteve
which the feds promptly looted...you just can't trust them
You really seem to hate government!
There's this country called Somalia, they don't have much government...maybe you'd be in heaven there!
| 695 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:09:51pm |
re: #690 WindUpBird
Nice try, Obstructionist Ollie. You know the GOP proposals do nothing. :)
Details... I'm interested?
| 696 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:10:43pm |
re: #685 WindUpBird
Is your friend so young and strong that if a Ford F150 clips him at a crosswalk in a hit-and-run,
I beleive the class has already covered this material. The driver of the car's insurance would be responsible for those bills. That person does NOT have to buy auto insurance if he decides to NOT drive. IF he decides to NOT drive and NOT buy auto ins the gov't doesn;t FINE HIM and/ or JAIL HIM
But nice try
| 697 |
caliphibian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:11:47pm |
re: #575 swamprat
re #575 swamprat
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Does the site's rules and regualations flag any commenter just because he or she doesn't comment enough in a certain timeframe? I remember deleting one of my own messages advocating some retaliation regarding some event. Just to be on the safe side I removed it so it wouldn't be interpreted as a blanket use of force in every case. I'm not sure how far one must self censor his or her remarks before a possible banning.
| 698 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:12:22pm |
re: #693 Spare O'Lake
I think it was just a fucked up quote from George Harrison.
KT is my friend...I'd drink with him anyday
| 699 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:12:24pm |
re: #687 Conservative Moonbat
In response to your claim that overseas systems are better - all I can say is that the UK NHS damn nearly killed me 3 years ago, through a combination of equipment shortages and in-hospital germs caused by non-sterile wards.
| 700 |
McSpiff Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:12:46pm |
re: #696 sattv4u2
Probably should have covered the obvious follow up question as well, but I'll ask it for completeness: What if the driver is flat broke, driving without insurance?
| 701 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:12:48pm |
| 702 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:13:12pm |
re: #698 albusteve
KT is my friend...I'd drink with him anyday
Can I come too? I bet the three of us would have a hoot.
| 703 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:13:26pm |
re: #697 caliphibian
re #575 swamprat
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Does the site's rules and regualations flag any commenter just because he or she doesn't comment enough in a certain timeframe? I remember deleting one of my own messages advocating some retaliation regarding some event. Just to be on the safe side I removed it so it wouldn't be interpreted as a blanket use of force in every case. I'm not sure how far one must self censor his or her remarks before a possible banning.
You deleted your own comment?
Not on this blog - that isn't possible to do.
| 704 |
The Sanity Inspector Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:13:42pm |
re: #510 SanFranciscoZionist
That's, in my opinion, a lame way to brush the horrific history of what has been done in Jesus' name under the rug, while pointing fingers at Islam.
No one's brushing anything under the rug. The sins, crimes, and shortcomings of Christianity in practice have been and still are discussed in minute detail, by friend and foe. Not so for Islam. The author of Why I Am Not A Christian lived openly and with public honor his whole life. The author of Why I Am Not A Muslim is forced to live in pseudonymous hiding.
| 705 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:13:52pm |
| 706 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:13:55pm |
re: #700 McSpiff
Probably should have covered the obvious follow up question as well, but I'll ask it for completeness: What if the driver is flat broke, driving without insurance?
Then he can (is) sued for everything he does and will have in the now and future
| 707 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:13:56pm |
re: #700 McSpiff
You mean like the illegals in the border states?
| 709 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:14:37pm |
re: #694 WindUpBird
You really seem to hate government!
There's this country called Somalia, they don't have much government...maybe you'd be in heaven there!
people like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution...I'm as patriotic as anybody here, and the govt has nothing to do with that...say something stupid again
| 710 |
Spare O'Lake Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:14:48pm |
| 711 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:14:50pm |
re: #699 JohninLondon
In response to your claim that overseas systems are better - all I can say is that the UK NHS damn nearly killed me 3 years ago, through a combination of equipment shortages and in-hospital germs caused by non-sterile wards.
Good thing we're not trying to do a British style system. So that's a straw man.
| 712 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:14:53pm |
| 713 |
McSpiff Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:15:26pm |
| 714 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:15:29pm |
re: #689 Sharmuta
We were not discussing how the military dropped the ball with this.
I know we weren't. I brought that up. And I'll wager nothing was done in part because people were afraid of being labeled "Islamophobic".
I responded to a person who thought his religious community was to blame for not "dropping a dime". I still say it's unfair since we have no idea if he showed signs of psychological trouble while at his mosque.
My hunch is that any signs of psychological trouble that might have tipped off an outsider were were seen as signs of being a true believer at his mosque. Just a guess, but I'm sure we'll find out.
It will be interesting to know whether his particular place of worship was of the Saudi-funded variety...
| 715 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:15:45pm |
My only friday night off from my theatre job for the next 9 weeks, and guess what I have to do later? Go see some theatre. Got to go see my step-critter in "Les Miserables."
| 716 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:15:57pm |
re: #709 albusteve
people like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution...I'm as patriotic as anybody here, and the govt has nothing to do with that...say something stupid again
Something stupid.
What do you like about government? - since we're on this broad and inane topic.
| 717 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:16:01pm |
re: #702 Sharmuta
Can I come too? I bet the three of us would have a hoot.
of course...we'll need a waitress...ZING ZANG WOLLY WOLLY BING BANG!
jus kidding
| 719 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:17:04pm |
re: #691 Killgore Trout
I think we're looking at a while before employment picks up but I think most predictions are that we're going to see economic growth continue for the next few quarters.
Hmmm...if'n we had double-digit unemployment during the Bush years, people would be screaming about...well...double-digit unemployment no matter how well the Dow-Jones Industrial was doing.
'Jobless recovery' doesn't mean shit when you're one of the jobless.
| 720 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:17:06pm |
| 721 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:17:06pm |
re: #699 JohninLondon
In response to your claim that overseas systems are better - all I can say is that the UK NHS damn nearly killed me 3 years ago, through a combination of equipment shortages and in-hospital germs caused by non-sterile wards.
What's being proposed is nothing like the NHS. It's more like a less regulated version of the German system.
| 722 |
bloodnok Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:17:18pm |
| 723 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:17:24pm |
re: #716 recusancy
Something stupid.
What do you like about government? - since we're on this broad and inane topic.
I like my pot holes filled, and my mail delivered
| 724 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:17:47pm |
re: #713 McSpiff
re: #706 sattv4u2
My point being: not having insurance isn't really an option. Like FN said, you get hit by an illegal driving without insurance. Worse case; he's deported. You dont see a cent. You go bankrupt with medical bills.
Yes,, that could and does happen, of course, but to have the gov;'t now say if you decide NOT to drive you have to buy auto ins anyway
And if you do NOT buy it you will be fined and/ or imprisoned
So ,, do you think everyone without a car should be mandated by the gov't to buy car ins?
| 725 |
Dr. Shalit Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:18:19pm |
re: #590 Conservative Moonbat
You're required to buy auto insurance too. I don't recall many people kicking and screaming when that went down. The reasoning is the same. It's to make sure everybody is able to cover the costs when there is an accident.
Conservative Moonbat -
That is ONLY because "back in the day" when "liberal-statism" was ascendant we all went along with it - Like Good "Law Abiding" Sheep, Going to Slaughter. We also allowed the sates to collect our Social Security Numbers to cross reference with driver's licenses - not required by law - AND - another mistake. Most states have remained "states"and not abused the information.
MY NEW JERSEY - Has Not. A Driver's License, with Cross Reference to Social Security # has become a BIG BAT to keep Low Income people from being able to own/insure/drive a motor vehicle. ONE (1) MAJOR TICKET and your insurance becomes unaffordable - Fines (Immediately), Court Costs (Immediately), License Surcharges (For Three (3) Years), Insurance Surcharges (For Three (3) Years. If the conviction is for DUI - No Limited License to go to and from work - which MOST states have. Also - US Military Personnel Permanently assigned to NJ have to register and insure their vehicles in NJ if BOUGHT and FINANCED here. Just what an E-1 or E-2 needs, $1000 + per/year insurance for the ability to own and drive a car off base. Having been in the automobile business in the hometown of Ft. Monmouth, I learned to ask "qualifying" questions to young military buyers unheard of in the rest of the US.
If you think it is impossible in other states - look at budget deficits in the majority of states. If NJ Motor Vehicle Laws were in effect for any realistic time frame in most of the US, their Next Governor would be LIBERTARIAN -
BIG "L." Chris Christie - Take a Hint! That is all - For Now.
-S-
I Shall Rant No More, except to say that if
| 726 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:18:19pm |
re: #723 albusteve
I like my pot holes filled, and my mail delivered
But those could be done by private companies. You libruls and your big government.
| 727 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:18:37pm |
re: #696 sattv4u2
Is your friend so young and strong that if a Ford F150 clips him at a crosswalk in a hit-and-run,
I beleive the class has already covered this material. The driver of the car's insurance would be responsible for those bills. That person does NOT have to buy auto insurance if he decides to NOT drive. IF he decides to NOT drive and NOT buy auto ins the gov't doesn;t FINE HIM and/ or JAIL HIM
But nice try
HIT
AND
RUN
no car insurance, no nothing. Driver: poof. Gone. vanished.
Seriously, read what I write. Please.
| 728 |
McSpiff Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:19:02pm |
re: #724 sattv4u2
Of course not. But I do think everyone who has a body should have the proper insurance for it.
| 729 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:19:03pm |
you know I love you guys...actually I'm humbled, just a little sassy at times
| 730 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:19:10pm |
re: #709 albusteve
people like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution...I'm as patriotic as anybody here, and the govt has nothing to do with that...say something stupid again
Now now...'patriotic' is one of those malleable phrases the left likes to tweak and massage until it suits their own definition.
Same goes with 'Racist', 'Extreme Right Wing', 'Wealthy', etc...
| 731 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:19:11pm |
| 732 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:19:17pm |
re: #711 recusancy
Good thing we're not trying to do a British style system. So that's a straw man.
I was responding to the absurd claim thatv there are dozens (unnamed) of countries with the Dem plan - and it works.
If you don't think the end-aim of all the Pelosi nonsense is state-run medicine, you need to read the bill and some of the CBO reports, there is every sign that is where it is trended.
| 733 |
Thor-Zone Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:19:23pm |
The facts about Mr. Hasan that are coming out recently are very interesting. I think the key points are
1. He tried to kill as many people as he could who were getting ready to ship out for war against the jihadists.
2. Moe than one person herd him invoke Allah.
The truth will eventually come out (I hope)
| 734 |
Dr. Shalit Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:19:34pm |
re: #611 Cato the Elder
Why? Sirhan Sirhan is the guy's name. The same name twice in a row. Hasan has two other names. What's your point?
Cato -
Same "POOP" - Different Toilet. That is all.
-S-
| 735 |
swamprat Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:20:39pm |
re: #697 caliphibian
You are posting anti muslim comments at a time when these would be the most inflamatory. Yet you have not commented recently before. All I am saying is perhaps you would feel more comfortable at "stormfront" or similar venues. I may be mistaken. But everything about you spells troll/moby.
Few comments.
Bigoted theme.
Negative kharma.
Not a recent register, which means you post infrequently, or have kept this persona in the fridge, or got it from someone.
Other than that, you seem ok.
| 736 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:20:39pm |
re: #727 WindUpBird
HIT
AND
RUN
no car insurance, no nothing. Driver: poof. Gone. vanished.
Seriously, read what I write. Please.
Yes,, that could and does happen, of course, but to have the gov;'t now say if you decide NOT to drive you have to buy auto ins anyway
And if you do NOT buy it you will be fined and/ or imprisoned
So ,, do you think everyone without a car should be mandated by the gov't to buy car ins?
| 737 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:20:39pm |
re: #690 WindUpBird
Nice try, Obstructionist Ollie. You know the GOP proposals do nothing. :)
Not true, it does one thing just fine, namely subsidizing the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries.
| 738 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:21:17pm |
re: #731 reine.de.tout
You volunteering to be the wait-staff?
Cool- then I can get the night off. I was invited to a party at Kos, and thought I'd go spike the punch.
| 739 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:21:30pm |
re: #732 JohninLondon
I was responding to the absurd claim thatv there are dozens (unnamed) of countries with the Dem plan - and it works.
If you don't think the end-aim of all the Pelosi nonsense is state-run medicine, you need to read the bill and some of the CBO reports, there is every sign that is where it is trended.
There is every sign that this is where it's trending in your mind because it makes it easier to be against it.
| 740 |
A Man for all Seasons Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:21:36pm |
re: #702 Sharmuta
Can I come too? I bet the three of us would have a hoot.
Wait..I'm the life of the party...
*wink*
| 741 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:21:42pm |
re: #736 sattv4u2
Yes,, that could and does happen, of course, but to have the gov;'t now say if you decide NOT to drive you have to buy auto ins anyway
And if you do NOT buy it you will be fined and/ or imprisonedSo ,, do you think everyone without a car should be mandated by the gov't to buy car ins?
No fair... that's a trick question.
| 742 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:21:44pm |
re: #721 Conservative Moonbat
What's being proposed is nothing like the NHS. It's more like a less regulated version of the German system.
You said there are dozens of countries running systems like the Dems are proposing. Where are those dozens of countries ?
| 744 |
bloodnok Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:22:38pm |
re: #731 reine.de.tout
You volunteering to be the wait-staff?
sure. Sounds like a party I'd like to attend.
| 745 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:23:06pm |
re: #740 HoosierHoops
Wait..I'm the life of the party...
*wink*
I believe it!
{Hoops} - hope you're well tonight.
| 746 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:23:30pm |
re: #727 WindUpBird
I was still waiting for some explanation for this comment...
Nice try, Obstructionist Ollie. You know the GOP proposals do nothing. :)
I'm interested, can you detail some of the sections of that GOP bill that does nothing, or that doesn't live up to the stated purpose?
| 748 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:24:05pm |
re: #742 JohninLondon
You said there are dozens of countries running systems like the Dems are proposing. Where are those dozens of countries ?
There aren't any. Whoever says that is painting with too broad a brush. We are trying to set up a uniquely American system. It would nice to have a single payer like Canada but it aint gonna happen. So we've compromised and come to a public option.
| 749 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:24:37pm |
re: #732 JohninLondon
I was responding to the absurd claim thatv there are dozens (unnamed) of countries with the Dem plan - and it works.
If you don't think the end-aim of all the Pelosi nonsense is state-run medicine, you need to read the bill and some of the CBO reports, there is every sign that is where it is trended.
Have you looked at Germany's and Sweden's plans and compared them to what's being proposed? Most European countries have private, market based insurance systems that are tightly regulated. Democrats didn't just make this shit up out of nothing. They looked at what has worked elsewhere in the world.
| 750 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:24:39pm |
| 751 |
soxfan4life Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:25:35pm |
re: #748 recusancy
How is a public option not the same as single payer?
| 752 |
A Man for all Seasons Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:25:46pm |
re: #745 Sharmuta
I believe it!
{Hoops} - hope you're well tonight.
{Sharm} Watching the Pacers play on TV..Winston refuses to get off my lap
And life is sweet.
Hope today finds you well..
/I watched pregame with my boys in China at the great wall of China..They were excited to visit...
| 753 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:25:59pm |
re: #721 Conservative Moonbat
What's being proposed is nothing like the NHS. It's more like a less regulated version of the German system.
"Less regulated" being key terms, here. For how long? Given the propensity for the growth of government and taxes, the degree of regulation and taxation would appear to have one direction only.
| 754 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:27:38pm |
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question... please someone answer... make something up if you have to... get creative... like Obama.
"Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am taxed or possibly jailed for not paying the tax?"
| 755 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:27:46pm |
re: #726 recusancy
But those could be done by private companies. You libruls and your big government.
you're new here so for your benefit I'll explain that I have nothing but disdain for most of our elected officials...legislators and their spinoffs like the IRS for a good example...I'm a proud American and therefore I have the highest regard for our armed forces, the men and women of the Coast Guard, Border Patrol and Park Service...federal employees that work to keep me safe and enhance my life in this country...lawmakers and their bureaucratic, brain dead hand wringers can all go to hell...their main ambition in life is to take my money and tell me what to do...fuck them
| 756 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:28:09pm |
re: #754 Walter L. Newton
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question... please someone answer... make something up if you have to... get creative... like Obama.
"Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am taxed or possibly jailed for not paying the tax?"
| 757 |
saik0max0r Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:28:09pm |
re: #749 Conservative Moonbat
Comparing the German Swedish or whatever plans on paper is one thing, but remember that this thing will be run under a legal structure created by the United States Congress and run by Americans.
After watching C Span for 5 minutes, this doesn't inspire much confidence.
| 758 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:28:21pm |
re: #742 JohninLondon
You said there are dozens of countries running systems like the Dems are proposing. Where are those dozens of countries ?
I read an article comparing them all a while back. I'll see if I can find it later for the next time this comes up. The Scandinavian countries, some of the former soviet republics etc.
| 759 |
Thor-Zone Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:28:42pm |
The main problems in our health insurance world in the US are:
1. Stuipd lawsuits (yes there has to be a way to deal with actual bad actors) add a LOT of cost.
2. The consumer is too far removed from the service provider. The market is very inefficient.
The current proposals (except the GOP proposal) don't deal with the main issues. They just grow more government.
| 760 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:29:52pm |
re: #728 McSpiff
Of course not. But I do think everyone who has a body should have the proper insurance for it.
And to shitcan the entire system because not everyone who has a body has enough insurance is not the way to go
I'm not saying the system we have now is perfect, but top replace it with whats on the table is LUNACY
When I get a flat tire, I don't scrap the car and buy a jet. I FIX whats wrong with the good car I already have
| 761 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:30:25pm |
re: #749 Conservative Moonbat
Have you looked at Germany's and Sweden's plans and compared them to what's being proposed? Most European countries have private, market based insurance systems that are tightly regulated. Democrats didn't just make this shit up out of nothing. They looked at what has worked elsewhere in the world.
I'd put the emphasis on PRIVATE market-based insurance. What PelosiCare is introducing is not all private.
Wouldn't the US healthcare system be better improved by increasing real competition in the PRIVATE health insurance market - right now it is stymied in all sorts of ways. More competition would make it cheaper - more affordable.
It is competition that has made the US great. Curbing competition - as in the health arena - is where the US risks gross inefficiencies.
| 762 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:30:34pm |
re: #759 Thor-Zone
The main problems in our health insurance world in the US are:
1. Stuipd lawsuits (yes there has to be a way to deal with actual bad actors) add a LOT of cost.
2. The consumer is too far removed from the service provider. The market is very inefficient.
The current proposals (except the GOP proposal) don't deal with the main issues. They just grow more government.
One would not expect the progressives to do anything but expand government.
| 763 |
soxfan4life Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:30:36pm |
re: #759 Thor-Zone
The push for healthcare reform is a money grab.
| 764 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:30:45pm |
re: #730 Fenway_Nation
Now now...'patriotic' is one of those malleable phrases the left likes to tweak and massage until it suits their own definition.
Same goes with 'Racist', 'Extreme Right Wing', 'Wealthy', etc...
suggesting I leave the country for Somalia because I don't like the govt insults my patriotic sensibilities...
| 765 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:30:51pm |
re: #555 Capitalist Tool
There's more vitriol put out by Matthews in 5 minutes than by Hannity in a month. Beck's another story, but ascribing some tripnut shooters' actions to a book's author requires a rather myopic world view, wouldn't you agree?
No, I wouldn't. See the Turner Diaries.
| 766 |
saik0max0r Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:30:55pm |
re: #750 Walter L. Newton
I tried... I vote to throw firefox or Charles' coding skills under teh bus :) This errant post could not have possibly resulted from user error.
/ducks
| 767 |
Achilles Tang Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:31:14pm |
re: #614 Walter L. Newton
This issue is not where I go, this issue is not whether I get medical care at all.
Yes, that is the issue because you can't do any of that without relying on others, and you will do that if necessary (or are you going to rely on your stash of mountain herbs, come what may?)
| 768 |
McSpiff Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:31:24pm |
re: #760 sattv4u2
These car analogies are starting to remind me of an '84 buick...
///not sure where i was going
| 769 |
Thor-Zone Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:32:01pm |
re: #760 sattv4u2
I'm not saying the system we have now is perfect, but top replace it with whats on the table is LUNACY
When I get a flat tire, I don't scrap the car and buy a jet. I FIX whats wrong with the good car I already have
Amen to that!
| 770 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:32:18pm |
re: #731 reine.de.tout
You volunteering to be the wait-staff?
C'mon...I apologize...I would be flattered to wait on you
| 771 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:33:24pm |
re: #760 sattv4u2
And to shitcan the entire system because not everyone who has a body has enough insurance is not the way to go
I'm not saying the system we have now is perfect, but top replace it with whats on the table is LUNACY
When I get a flat tire, I don't scrap the car and buy a jet. I FIX whats wrong with the good car I already have
Just curious. Were you behind the push to privatize social security?
| 772 |
Dr. Shalit Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:33:25pm |
re: #769 Thor-Zone
Amen to that!
Thor-Zone -
You Change Your OWN TIRES? - Might be Against Union Rules!
-S-
| 773 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:33:41pm |
re: #578 Cato the Elder
What I want to know is why the military keeps a lousy psychiatrist whose colleagues call him a shitbag or douchebag or whatever "blankbag" stands for in NPR-speak, transfers him around, lets him give "medical lectures" about Koranic hellfire, and then wonders what went wrong when he cracks.
Seems like multiple people were asleep at the wheel, here.
Yes, and I don't want to hear 'the PC made them do it'. This is the U.S. Army.
| 774 |
Thor-Zone Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:33:45pm |
re: #762 Walter L. Newton
One would not expect the progressives to do anything but expand government.
Actually...That is what scares the hell out of me. Government is already abuot 10X too big for me.
| 775 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:34:15pm |
re: #774 Thor-Zone
Actually...That is what scares the hell out of me. Government is already abuot 10X too big for me.
What would you cut?
| 776 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:34:17pm |
re: #756 recusancy
Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.
[Link: republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov...]
And honestly, I didn't need the Ways and Means Committee to tell me this. I've read the current 1990 page bill (no, I didn't manage to get to the new 100 plus pages they peppered though it this past few days) and this is plainly in the proposals.
Your progressives at work.
| 777 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:34:24pm |
Connections, re Sirhan Sirhan.
I didn't know until just now that Lynn "Buck" Compton, the real-life parachute officer portrayed by actor Neal McDonough in Band of Brothers, went on to become a lawyer and judge and was the prosecutor at the Sirhan Sirhan trial.
Sirhan himself is now 65 years old and is still locked up at Pleasant Valley prison.
| 778 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:34:36pm |
re: #754 Walter L. Newton
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question... please someone answer... make something up if you have to... get creative... like Obama.
"Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am taxed or possibly jailed for not paying the tax?"
Bombs, bullets and Humvees.
| 779 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:34:43pm |
re: #754 Walter L. Newton
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question... please someone answer... make something up if you have to... get creative... like Obama.
"Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am taxed or possibly jailed for not paying the tax?"
Raincoat and boots, at least, if visiting the Washington Monument.
| 780 |
njdhockeyfan Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:34:54pm |
re: #762 Walter L. Newton
One would not expect the progressives to do anything but expand government.
I have never seen the government do anything within budget. They Obamacare bill is going to be much more expensive than the Dems or CBO has stated. Guaranteed.
| 781 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:35:17pm |
re: #764 albusteve
suggesting I leave the country for Somalia because I don't like the govt insults my patriotic sensibilities...
Didn't you get the memo? Dissent stopped being patriotic back in late January this year.
| 782 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:35:47pm |
re: #761 JohninLondon
I'd put the emphasis on PRIVATE market-based insurance. What PelosiCare is introducing is not all private.
Wouldn't the US healthcare system be better improved by increasing real competition in the PRIVATE health insurance market - right now it is stymied in all sorts of ways. More competition would make it cheaper - more affordable.
It is competition that has made the US great. Curbing competition - as in the health arena - is where the US risks gross inefficiencies.
All private insurance companies who comply with regulations will be able to compete in the exchange system. The public option being proposed is failsafe to ensure people can get some kind of coverage if the private companies can't meet their needs or whatever. It's not subsidized.
| 783 |
soxfan4life Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:36:23pm |
re: #781 Fenway_Nation
Went from being patriotic to racist.
| 784 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:36:26pm |
re: #776 Walter L. Newton
Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.
[Link: republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov...]
And honestly, I didn't need the Ways and Means Committee to tell me this. I've read the current 1990 page bill (no, I didn't manage to get to the new 100 plus pages they peppered though it this past few days) and this is plainly in the proposals.
Your progressives at work.
Haha... That's my congressman. He's a moron but a firmly entrenched one.
That aside you didn't respond to my post #677.
| 785 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:36:38pm |
re: #754 Walter L. Newton
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question... please someone answer... make something up if you have to... get creative... like Obama.
"Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am taxed or possibly jailed for not paying the tax?"
Clothes, you have to pay sales tax when you buy them, and if you don't wear them you can be fined or jailed.
/hey,you said "be creative."
| 786 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:36:39pm |
re: #776 Walter L. Newton
Basically making health care insurance mandatory or it's a crime.
| 787 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:36:48pm |
re: #773 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes, and I don't want to hear 'the PC made them do it'. This is the U.S. Army.
I for one don't doubt that political correctness has found its way into the U.S. Army. Do you?
| 788 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:36:49pm |
re: #781 Fenway_Nation
Didn't you get the memo? Dissent stopped being patriotic back in late January this year.
I can't read, but I shoot straight!
| 789 |
bratwurst Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:36:51pm |
| 790 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:37:50pm |
re: #785 ausador
Clothes, you have to pay sales tax when you buy them, and if you don't wear them you can be fined or jailed.
/hey,you said "be creative."
That certainly was... bleech.
| 791 |
Thor-Zone Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:37:50pm |
re: #772 Dr. Shalit
Thor-Zone -
You Change Your OWN TIRES? - Might be Against Union Rules!
-S-
Here's a funny story...
I am licensed by the FAA to fuel a 747. In Oreagon I am not allowed to fuel my own car. Some stoner working at the gas station does it for me. This is a great example of government stuck on stupid.
| 792 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:38:01pm |
re: #756 recusancy
heres your porblem with that
A country HAS to have national defense, a country HAS to have roads etc for commerce, a country HAS to have checks and balances (FDA) for consumer products
I do not HAVE to have a car, or car ins. I do not HAVE to purchase a new TV, or buy the insurance (extended warranty)
The gov;t is saying if I do NOT buy the TV I have to insure it anyway, and if I do NOT buy the insurance they will fine and imprison me
(not sure ,, but there may be some subliminal clues in that post!!))
| 793 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:38:04pm |
re: #754 Walter L. Newton
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question... please someone answer... make something up if you have to... get creative... like Obama.
"Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am taxed or possibly jailed for not paying the tax?"
National defense.
| 794 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:38:45pm |
re: #630 caliphibian
re #548 solomonpanting
1 jihadi = .0000000000000000000000000001% of $.01 or one Dinnerjacket speech.
re 556 wrenchwench
Yes, the doctors should have at least put his speech in his official file, but my main point is that Muslims around him in his life should have condemned his point of view so non-Muslims wouldn't have to play a wait and see game that ends in such violence.
How do you know they didn't? We have at least one Muslim on record telling him his ideas were incorrect. How are earth are his co-religionists more responsible for him than his co-workers?
| 795 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:39:25pm |
| 796 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:39:43pm |
re: #792 sattv4u2
heres your porblem with that
A country HAS to have national defense, a country HAS to have roads etc for commerce, a country HAS to have checks and balances (FDA) for consumer products
I do not HAVE to have a car, or car ins. I do not HAVE to purchase a new TV, or buy the insurance (extended warranty)
The gov;t is saying if I do NOT buy the TV I have to insure it anyway, and if I do NOT buy the insurance they will fine and imprison me(not sure ,, but there may be some subliminal clues in that post!!))
And a country needs healthy non bankrupt citizens.
| 797 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:39:45pm |
re: #771 recusancy
Just curious. Were you behind the push to privatize social security?
the "push"?!?!
If you mean should I be able to opt out and take MY money and invest it the way I want too, yes
If you mean that I want to force OTHERS to opt out, no,
| 798 |
Ojoe Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:39:53pm |
Nature break, from all the craziness.
| 799 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:40:10pm |
re: #784 recusancy
Haha... That's my congressman. He's a moron but a firmly entrenched one.
That aside you didn't respond to my post #677.
And a very honest one. Since you claim he is a moron, then you must know about this section of the proposal (of course, you can tell me the page and section). I suspect you have read the bill (I have, at least the 1990 pages, not the pages they added in the last two days).
So, this information is incorrect, yes?
| 800 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:40:33pm |
re: #796 recusancy
And a country needs healthy non bankrupt citizens.
I see ,,
So the country should pay every citizen exactly how much per week?
| 801 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:40:55pm |
re: #797 sattv4u2
the "push"?!?!
If you mean should I be able to opt out and take MY money and invest it the way I want too, yes
If you mean that I want to force OTHERS to opt out, no,
So then you would agree with the current health care proposal where you can OPT OUT and go private or OPT IN and go public.
| 802 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:41:04pm |
re: #793 Sharmuta
National defense.
That's a service, actually it's mandated in our founding documents, it's the law.
| 803 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:41:05pm |
re: #791 Thor-Zone
Here's a funny story...
I am licensed by the FAA to fuel a 747. In Oreagon I am not allowed to fuel my own car. Some stoner working at the gas station does it for me. This is a great example of government stuck on stupid.
It provides a job for someone.
| 805 |
JohninLondon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:41:44pm |
re: #782 Conservative Moonbat
All private insurance companies who comply with regulations will be able to compete in the exchange system. The public option being proposed is failsafe to ensure people can get some kind of coverage if the private companies can't meet their needs or whatever. It's not subsidized.
You are missing the point.
There are severe constraints on FULL competition between insurance companies. That is the prime cause of high and increasing costs, making it unaffordable to many people who MIGHT wish to be insured, or to their employers..
Increase the competition - bust the market open - and then see what gaps need to be filled would be a better way to go.
| 806 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:42:01pm |
re: #802 Walter L. Newton
That's a service, actually it's mandated in our founding documents, it's the law.
Healthcare isn't a service?
| 807 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:42:03pm |
re: #530 Conservative Moonbat
[...] I have friends who went to Tennessee Valley Unitarian Unilateralist Church [...]
Totally nothing to do with the story, which is horrible, but I do believe they're called Unitarian Universalists.
The Unilateralist Church is the one you go to right before attacking another country without consulting anybody else.
| 808 |
Thor-Zone Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:42:04pm |
re: #775 recusancy
What would you cut?
What a great question...
Anything that is not listed in the Constitution specifically as a federal responsibility (see the 10th Amendment). Stuff like the Department of Education, The EPA, The Corps of Engineers, Most of the US Department of Interior...the list goes on and on and on.
The states should decide / do the rest.
| 809 |
njdhockeyfan Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:42:12pm |
re: #796 recusancy
And a country needs healthy non bankrupt citizens.
Can you provide an example to show where universal health care has worked?
| 810 |
Spare O'Lake Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:42:22pm |
re: #754 Walter L. Newton
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question... please someone answer... make something up if you have to... get creative... like Obama.
"Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am taxed or possibly jailed for not paying the tax?"
A postage stamp?
| 811 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:42:27pm |
| 812 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:42:33pm |
re: #776 Walter L. Newton
You leave out the fact that there will be 1. Waivers and 2. subsidies for people who can't afford it. The waivers mean that some people are not going to get covered. Nobody who can't afford it is going to be forced to buy insurance.
| 813 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:42:44pm |
re: #799 Walter L. Newton
And a very honest one. Since you claim he is a moron, then you must know about this section of the proposal (of course, you can tell me the page and section). I suspect you have read the bill (I have, at least the 1990 pages, not the pages they added in the last two days).
So, this information is incorrect, yes?
This gets back to my point about taxes. It's illegal not to pay them (thereby purchasing products and services you may not choose to use). Camp didn't mention that people who can't afford to pay will be waived or subsidized.
| 814 |
Racer X Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:42:59pm |
re: #780 njdhockeyfan
I have never seen the government do anything within budget. They Obamacare bill is going to be much more expensive than the Dems or CBO has stated. Guaranteed.
Damn straight.
| 816 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:43:08pm |
| 817 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:43:34pm |
re: #801 recusancy
So then you would agree with the current health care proposal where you can OPT OUT and go private or OPT IN and go public.
And if I "opt out" and the gov;t decides I don;'t have enough ins ,,, (because after all , thats what started this entire discussion) I get fined and or improsoned
Thank you for finally understanding!
| 818 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:43:34pm |
re: #815 Sharmuta
Which goalpost am I aiming at next?
I know where you are going, I'm stupid but not dumb.
| 819 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:43:55pm |
re: #808 Thor-Zone
What a great question...
Anything that is not listed in the Constitution specifically as a federal responsibility (see the 10th Amendment). Stuff like the Department of Education, The EPA, The Corps of Engineers, Most of the US Department of Interior...the list goes on and on and on.
The states should decide / do the rest.
hahaha... Full on glibertarian. Conservatives utopia. Good luck with that.
| 820 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:43:58pm |
re: #644 swamprat
So it was their fault? The non-muslims who missed this idiot get a pass so you can blame the muslims?
/sniff
Something smells here.
Muslims have secret powers, and can tell when there is a disturbance in the Muslim hive-mind. No Muslim has ever turned into a jihadi killer without all the Muslims in the world being aare of his name, location, and exact intentions.
//I swear! It's admissable in court!
///Jews only know when one our own has failed to pay up to the UJA.
///Do Protestants have any secret powers?
| 822 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:44:37pm |
re: #801 recusancy
So then you would agree with the current health care proposal where you can OPT OUT and go private or OPT IN and go public.
Hmm...I'm starting to think it isn't just your congressman who isn't entrenched or stupid.
Let's see...we have the private insurance companies competing with an entity that has regulatory power over them, can change the rules on the fly and undercut them...i.e. the government.
| 823 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:44:50pm |
re: #806 Sharmuta
Healthcare isn't a service?
In the same way my mechanic is, yes
In the same way national defense is, not so much
| 824 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:45:27pm |
re: #791 Thor-Zone
Here's a funny story...
I am licensed by the FAA to fuel a 747. In Oreagon I am not allowed to fuel my own car. Some stoner working at the gas station does it for me. This is a great example of government stuck on stupid.
gotta agree with you on that one. Oregon is weird.
| 825 |
Racer X Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:45:31pm |
| 826 |
saik0max0r Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:45:45pm |
re: #773 SanFranciscoZionist
"This is the U.S. Army."
the Army is pretty PC. Actually, in large part, they military forces significantly influenced what we call PC behavior and are very assimilationist & hierarchical organizations. There's are some additional military values that are more spiritual in nature and don't really have civilian equivalents that make it a bit more complicated than that, but it's worth pointing out that some of the management techniques are the same PC style stuff you seen in large corporations.
| 827 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:45:49pm |
re: #822 Fenway_Nation
Hmm...I'm starting to think it isn't just your congressman who isn't entrenched or stupid.
Let's see...we have the private insurance companies competing with an entity that has regulatory power over them, can change the rules on the fly and undercut them...i.e. the government.
If they provide a better service who wins? I care about the citizens not the healthcare companies.
| 828 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:45:52pm |
re: #822 Fenway_Nation
Hmm...I'm starting to think it isn't just your congressman who isn't entrenched or stupid.
Let's see...we have the private insurance companies competing with an entity that has regulatory power over them, can change the rules on the fly and undercut them...i.e. the government.
it's just boggling...I can't help but laugh at that shit
| 829 |
soxfan4life Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:46:18pm |
re: #822 Fenway_Nation
Channeling LTG Russell Honore. "Don't get stuck on stupid, son"
| 830 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:46:33pm |
re: #824 Conservative Moonbat
gotta agree with you on that one. Oregon is weird.
NJ had same rules, when was last there.
| 831 |
Thor-Zone Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:46:57pm |
Walter...I figured it out. The answer to your question is Medicare. When I turn 65, I have to buy into it. It has to be my primary insurance. There is no way out.
That being said...I think that sucks.
| 832 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:47:40pm |
re: #818 Walter L. Newton
I know where you are going, I'm stupid but not dumb.
He's got a point though. You ask for services that we are mandated to buy. We give you some. And then you move your argument.
| 834 |
njdhockeyfan Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:48:16pm |
Here is an example of what happens when the government tried to dabble in health care in Tennessee. It was called TennCare.
In 1994, Tennessee launched an ambitious public insurance program to cover its uninsured. The plan, TennCare, fulfilled that mission but nearly bankrupted the state in the process.
As originally envisioned, the Tennessee plan expanded Medicaid, the government health-care program for the poor, to cover people who couldn't afford insurance or who had been denied coverage by an insurance company.
With an initial budget of $2.6 billion, TennCare quickly extended coverage to an additional 500,000 people by making access to its plans easy and affordable. But the program became so expensive that Tennessee was forced to scale it back in 2005.
Now, as Congress debates a national health-care overhaul, state experiments like Tennessee's are informing the discussion.
Unlike Massachusetts's more recent universal coverage law, the TennCare plan is most often cited by opponents. They say TennCare's runaway costs show that the public health-insurance proposal by House Democrats could bankrupt the federal government.
In a letter to Congress last month, Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R., Tenn.) compared the public plan envisioned in the House bill to TennCare, warning that TennCare became so costly at its peak that it ate up one-third of Tennessee's budget.
"The promise of TennCare has gone unrealized," she wrote. "Many of the concerns we have expressed about the proposal before us today are the stark realities of a system that went terribly wrong in Tennessee."
Epic Fail
| 835 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:48:18pm |
re: #832 recusancy
He's got a point though. You ask for services that we are mandated to buy. We give you some. And then you move your argument.
I really thought my avatar would help with that.
| 836 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:48:42pm |
re: #808 Thor-Zone
What a great question...
Anything that is not listed in the Constitution specifically as a federal responsibility (see the 10th Amendment). Stuff like the Department of Education, The EPA, The Corps of Engineers, Most of the US Department of Interior...the list goes on and on and on.
The states should decide / do the rest.
Yeah, right. Because I want an Alabama FDA, and one in Maryland, and another in Arizona, to decide what foods and drugs are safe. They'd never cut corners or give a pass to local producers. Of course they wouldn't.
| 837 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:48:42pm |
re: #828 albusteve
it's just boggling...I can't help but laugh at that shit
That would be awful if we got offered a better service and it happened to be the government offering it.
| 838 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:48:49pm |
re: #827 recusancy
If they provide a better service who wins? I care about the citizens not the healthcare companies.
hint: the govt is not you friend, they need you to grow...unchecked govt feeds on you and bloats itself beyond any notion of efficiency...you are the protein
| 839 |
sattv4u2 Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:49:00pm |
re: #832 recusancy
He's got a point though. You ask for services that we are mandated to buy. We give you some. And then you move your argument.
Did you not read or just didn't understand #792
| 840 |
Racer X Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:49:18pm |
re health care - where are the consequences to my poor health decisions? What if I smoke and drink and eat big juicy hamburgers every day. Then I get the diabetes and heart problems and COPD. My fault. I was stupid. But now YOU get to pay for that.
Fair?
| 841 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:49:45pm |
re: #831 Thor-Zone
Walter...I figured it out. The answer to your question is Medicare. When I turn 65, I have to buy into it. It has to be my primary insurance. There is no way out.
That being said...I think that sucks.
Been on it for a year or so. Still alive. By private insurance thinking,
my age makes me impossibly expensive to insure.
| 842 |
Thor-Zone Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:50:10pm |
re: #819 recusancy
hahaha... Full on glibertarian. Conservatives utopia. Good luck with that.
I never said it would happen...it is just what I would do if I ruled the world...but I don't.
| 843 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:50:12pm |
re: #663 saik0max0r
"...dumbass lack of sense of threat, or bureaucratic ineptitude?"
I don't fault the bureaucracy for not sensing a "threat". Trying to defraud the government by applying for the same thing under false pretenses was good enough to snitch him off / report him to *someone*.
From what I recall, the woman who conducted the interview at the Miami Department of Argiculture wrote off his sekrit disguise behavior because he was a muslim man from Saudi Arabia who had cultural issues with doing business with women. Of course, Mohammed played the stereotype to the hilt, which reinforced her Politically Correct notions.
9 times out of 10, these guys can get busted for something other than zomg terrists! bombings and shootings, and every effort should be made to shut it down before it gets to the matyrdom phase.
FWIW, I now use the "KKK guy" test to debug these things. Basically, if you start rationalizing someone's odd behavior based on religious or ethnicity, try to imagine if that guy was a KKK member doing the same thing. If the creepy bells start ringing, your subconcious cultural indoctrination is messing with your reality processing and you should really get that fixed.
I personally recommend LSD, but YMMV.
How would I know if the person was a KKK guy? I get told all the time that because I'm a liberal elite, I don't understand the values of red-staters. What if I'm just assuming this guy is a KKK member?
In other words, just because odd behavior gets chalked up to cultural differences, it does not suggest that there is a (how trite) 'subconscious cultural indoctrination' at work. And if I assumed that every dude who won't shake my hand is going to blow stuff up, I would freak out big-time in Crown Heights.
| 844 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:50:13pm |
re: #835 Sharmuta
I really thought my avatar would help with that.
Sorry didn't look. Furiously typing. Someone's wrong on the internets and I have to fix it. :)
| 845 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:50:53pm |
re: #822 Fenway_Nation
Hmm...I'm starting to think it isn't just your congressman who isn't entrenched or stupid.
Let's see...we have the private insurance companies competing with an entity that has regulatory power over them, can change the rules on the fly and undercut them...i.e. the government.
The public option is expected to cost more than most of the private ones. It won't be cost competitive. It will insure that everyone who can afford it can get insurance.
| 846 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:51:04pm |
re: #837 recusancy
That would be awful if we got offered a better service and it happened to be the government offering it.
dream on...idealism is a wonderful thing on a sunny fall day
| 847 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:51:37pm |
Oh...and to (nominally) get back to the topic of this thread, the thought that the Ft. Hood shooter was Muslim didn't cross my mind- until the MSM announced that it was definitely not terrorism. This was back when the number of shooter(s) weren't know, the number of dead and wounded weren't known, the weapons used wasn't know...but somehow they magically knew that this 'wasn't terrorism'.
/Call me cynical, but I can't be the only one here...
| 848 |
Racer X Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:51:45pm |
re: #845 Conservative Moonbat
The public option is expected to cost more than most of the private ones. It won't be cost competitive. It will insure that everyone who can afford it can get insurance.
Current health care cost estimate is what - $2 Trillion?
| 849 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:51:56pm |
re: #838 albusteve
hint: the govt is not you friend, they need you to grow...unchecked govt feeds on you and bloats itself beyond any notion of efficiency...you are the protein
Government...it's..its..PEOPLE.
| 850 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:52:43pm |
re: #844 recusancy
Sorry didn't look. Furiously typing. Someone's wrong on the internets and I have to fix it. :)
I know that feeling- so I had to correct you. ;)
| 851 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:52:45pm |
re: #842 Thor-Zone
I never said it would happen...it is just what I would do if I ruled the world...but I don't.
Fair enough.
| 852 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:53:44pm |
putting your faith in govt is the kiss of death whatever the endeavor...unless it's fighting bad guys or international disaster relief...we ROCK in that regard
| 853 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:53:56pm |
| 854 |
Thor-Zone Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:54:38pm |
re: #836 Cato the Elder
Yeah, right. Because I want an Alabama FDA, and one in Maryland, and another in Arizona, to decide what foods and drugs are safe. They'd never cut corners or give a pass to local producers. Of course they wouldn't.
Really ...you think the feds do a good job with protecting our food source?
How much beef has been recalled in the last few years because some tainted prouct goot out on th emarket? Our government is totally incompitent at all levels ( except the military)
| 855 |
solomonpanting Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:55:43pm |
| 856 |
njdhockeyfan Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:56:17pm |
re: #852 albusteve
putting your faith in govt is the kiss of death whatever the endeavor...unless it's fighting bad guys or international disaster relief...we ROCK in that regard
Don't forget NASA. The Hubble telescope, the Space Shuttle, the space station...
| 857 |
Thor-Zone Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:56:28pm |
| 858 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:56:54pm |
re: #704 The Sanity Inspector
No one's brushing anything under the rug. The sins, crimes, and shortcomings of Christianity in practice have been and still are discussed in minute detail, by friend and foe. Not so for Islam. The author of Why I Am Not A Christian lived openly and with public honor his whole life. The author of Why I Am Not A Muslim is forced to live in pseudonymous hiding.
I'm not talking about anything but that quote, although I see a LOT of rug-brushing-under going on in other sources.
Do not go from that to thinking I said the present conditions of the two religions are equivalent. I simply don't buy the idea that Christianity is peaceful in its DNA and Islam is not. History does not bear that out.
| 859 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:57:06pm |
re: #839 sattv4u2
Did you not read or just didn't understand #792
Yes. A country is nothing without the people. Country = I (assuming I is a citizen).
| 860 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:57:07pm |
I disregard anybody that does not like the subdudes
| 861 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:57:59pm |
re: #856 njdhockeyfan
Don't forget NASA. The Hubble telescope, the Space Shuttle, the space station...
I did...good point
| 862 |
Spare O'Lake Fri, Nov 6, 2009 4:58:37pm |
re: #810 Spare O'Lake
re: #754 Walter L. Newton
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question... please someone answer... make something up if you have to... get creative... like Obama."Tell me a product that the United States government requires me to purchase, and if I refuse to purchase that product, I am taxed or possibly jailed for not paying the tax?"
A postage stamp?
A postage stamp.
To mail your income tax return.
If you don't affix sufficient postage the tax return doesn't get there.
So the government assesses you tax for not filing and paying your tax.
Or you could get sent to jail.
| 863 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:00:01pm |
re: #854 Thor-Zone
Really ...you think the feds do a good job with protecting our food source?
How much beef has been recalled in the last few years because some tainted prouct goot out on th emarket? Our government is totally incompitent at all levels ( except the military)
Would you be more comfortable without the gov-mandated recall?
| 864 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:00:22pm |
re: #730 Fenway_Nation
Now now...'patriotic' is one of those malleable phrases the left likes to tweak and massage until it suits their own definition.
Same goes with 'Racist', 'Extreme Right Wing', 'Wealthy', etc...
"Liberal", "lefty", "fascist", "socialist", "communist", "elitist", "values"--come on, the right ain't far behind us!
| 865 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:00:26pm |
re: #854 Thor-Zone
Really ...you think the feds do a good job with protecting our food source?
How much beef has been recalled in the last few years because some tainted prouct goot out on th emarket? Our government is totally incompitent at all levels ( except the military)
Thank you for proving our point. The problem was figured out and solved. The recall was made.
| 866 |
njdhockeyfan Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:02:13pm |
re: #848 Racer X
Current health care cost estimate is what - $2 Trillion?
The Congressional Budget Office figures the House program will cost $1.055 trillion over a decade, which while far above the $829 billion net cost that Mrs. Pelosi fed to credulous reporters is still a low-ball estimate. Most of the money goes into government-run "exchanges" where people earning between 150% and 400% of the poverty level—that is, up to about $96,000 for a family of four in 2016—could buy coverage at heavily subsidized rates, tied to income. The government would pay for 93% of insurance costs for a family making $42,000, 72% for another making $78,000, and so forth.
At least at first, these benefits would be offered only to those whose employers don't provide insurance or work for small businesses with 100 or fewer workers. The taxpayer costs would be far higher if not for this "firewall"—which is sure to cave in when people see the deal their neighbors are getting on "free" health care. Mrs. Pelosi knows this, like everyone else in Washington.
Even so, the House disguises hundreds of billions of dollars in additional costs with budget gimmicks. It "pays for" about six years of program with a decade of revenue, with the heaviest costs concentrated in the second five years. The House also pretends Medicare payments to doctors will be cut by 21.5% next year and deeper after that, "saving" about $250 billion. ObamaCare will be lucky to cost under $2 trillion over 10 years; it will grow more after that.
The price increases will never end.
| 867 |
Racer X Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:02:17pm |
re: #853 recusancy
900 bil or 10 years.
I've heard several estimates. 900 nil is the lowest one I've heard. The highest was over $2 Trillion.
When has the government enacted a program that came in under budget? Because with so many unknowns in the total revamp of health care, I would bet $14 that it will end up costing us way more that $2 Trillion.
| 868 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:04:32pm |
re: #854 Thor-Zone
Really ...you think the feds do a good job with protecting our food source?
How much beef has been recalled in the last few years because some tainted prouct goot out on th emarket? Our government is totally incompitent at all levels ( except the military)
It was recalled because it was discovered. I'd like to see how it would work if each state had its own FDA and the beef producers in Texas got to make the rules for their own product.
You, by the way, are totally incompetent at spelling.
And the military just proved its incompetence by keeping a third-rate jihadist shrink on active duty until he went bonkers. Nobody is exempt from incompetence, it seems.
| 869 |
albusteve Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:05:35pm |
re: #865 recusancy
Thank you for proving our point. The problem was figured out and solved. The recall was made.
thousands of head of cattle are driven north over the border from Mexico every year...the Beef Banditos don't care if those cows are e-coliated or not...they even have cow aids and other hearing problems...the feds need to police the range before Houston perishes...do you realize the rise of vegetarianism is off the scale in Texas...c'mon feds!
| 870 |
recusancy Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:05:51pm |
re: #868 Cato the Elder
It was recalled because it was discovered. I'd like to see how it would work if each state had its own FDA and the beef producers in Texas got to make the rules for their own product.
You, by the way, are totally incompetent at spelling.
And the military just proved its incompetence by keeping a third-rate jihadist shrink on active duty until he went bonkers. Nobody is exempt from incompetence, it seems.
Haha... I didn't want to be the one to say it.
| 871 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:06:10pm |
re: #781 Fenway_Nation
Didn't you get the memo? Dissent stopped being patriotic back in late January this year.
Oh, hardy har har. Only for half the country. The other half suddenly realized it was patriotic after all!
| 872 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:09:32pm |
re: #787 Cato the Elder
I for one don't doubt that political correctness has found its way into the U.S. Army. Do you?
I think it's a lame excuse, being put forward here to justify a failure to realize this man was dangerous.
| 873 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:11:20pm |
re: #869 albusteve
thousands of head of cattle are driven north over the border from Mexico every year...the Beef Banditos don't care if those cows are e-coliated or not...they even have cow aids and other hearing problems...the feds need to police the range before Houston perishes...do you realize the rise of vegetarianism is off the scale in Texas...c'mon feds!
It's funny that we've landed on the "clean meat" theme. That's where
a lot of Fed regulation started under TR. It was driven by misplaced
public reaction to The Jungle.
| 874 |
psyop Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:11:39pm |
Just saw a great juxtaposition on Obama comments in the comments of a Times UK article about the hero officer that stopped the killing.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6907235.ece
andrew james wrote:
Obama: "Don't jump to conclusions."
Obama: "The cops acted stupidly."
| 875 |
SixDegrees Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:12:47pm |
re: #865 recusancy
re: #854 Thor-ZoneReally ...you think the feds do a good job with protecting our food source?
How much beef has been recalled in the last few years because some tainted prouct goot out on th emarket? Our government is totally incompitent at all levels ( except the military)
Thank you for proving our point. The problem was figured out and solved. The recall was made.
Also, the question really is: compared to what? The Federal government regulates meat processing because the conditions that existed prior to such inspection and regulation were enough to cause nightmares - along with widespread illness and death. No one criticized The Jungle for being over the top - there was criticism of it for being too even-handed and too late bringing matters to the public's attention, but the horrendous conditions it describes, which are all but unimaginable today, were widespread, common and the rule rather than the exception.
"Wah, the government isn't perfect" is a childish, pointless complaint that deserves no answer. The government is run by men; imperfection is a given. Are we supposed to think that a system of inspection run by the meat packing industry itself, answerable to no one but the company owners, would somehow be better than the system currently in place?
There are valid criticisms to be made of the present system, but I'm not seeing any being made, given that failure to attain perfection isn't valid, and that detection, rapid traceability across the entire continent to the source of the problem (often to a single machine operated on a single shift) and widespread public notification that a problem has been detected aren't faults, but evidence that the system is working.
| 877 |
psyop Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:15:03pm |
re: #872 SanFranciscoZionist
I think it's a lame excuse, being put forward here to justify a failure to realize this man was dangerous.
P.C. has definitely found its way into the policy and attitude of the military. That is, as you say, a lame excuse. There is no way the tiny (relative to society at large) amount of P.C. thought process that occurs in the armed forces should keep people from realizing this guy was a threat.
| 878 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:15:30pm |
re: #840 Racer X
re health care - where are the consequences to my poor health decisions? What if I smoke and drink and eat big juicy hamburgers every day. Then I get the diabetes and heart problems and COPD. My fault. I was stupid. But now YOU get to pay for that.
Fair?
The rural counties of California need far more expensive services per capita than the urban ones. Because these dumbasses chose to live in Hicksville, I should pay?
/
| 879 |
saik0max0r Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:15:56pm |
re: #843 SanFranciscoZionist
"How would I know if the person was a KKK guy?"
/facepalm
d00d, it's a mental exercise to analyze suspicious behavior. The KKK is bad, right? Universally disliked? If you assumed someone was a KKK member, you would be suspicious of their motives when they freaking asked you for a crop duster loan using one name one day using the name Earl, and when that didn't work out, you meet up the next day under an assumed name (Carl, for instance) pretending that we've never met and that you're using a sekrit disguise consisting acquired during a jaunt to lens crafters?
I wouldn't chock that behavior to "red state values" or some provincial southern nuance. Educated members of our society in mid level government positions *did* chock up Atta's behavior to cultural differences and didn't call his bullshit out of some sort of misguided notion of sensitivity.
Someone not wanting to shake your hands certainly isn't threating. If that same guy who decided not to shake your hand was wearing his Grand Dragon underoos and muttering crap about kilin' obama while trying to buy 50' of rope, would that make you suspicious?
| 880 |
Cato the Elder Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:16:34pm |
re: #872 SanFranciscoZionist
I think it's a lame excuse, being put forward here to justify a failure to realize this man was dangerous.
I think they knew he was dangerous. They certainly knew he was a shitty psychiatrist. I guess we'll find out in twenty years when the FOIA request reveals the facts of the case, but I would certainly not put it past the military to avoid a lawsuit from CAIR or whatever by giving a loose Muslim cannon pass after pass after pass.
| 881 |
Stanghazi Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:20:29pm |
Did anyone see this first hand report of the shooting @ Ft. Hood yet?
(sorry if posted, but since its from Mother Jones, kinda doubt it has been)
[Link: www.motherjones.com...]
much info.
| 882 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:21:29pm |
re: #879 saik0max0r
"How would I know if the person was a KKK guy?"
/facepalm
d00d, it's a mental exercise to analyze suspicious behavior. The KKK is bad, right? Universally disliked? If you assumed someone was a KKK member, you would be suspicious of their motives when they freaking asked you for a crop duster loan using one name one day using the name Earl, and when that didn't work out, you meet up the next day under an assumed name (Carl, for instance) pretending that we've never met and that you're using a sekrit disguise consisting acquired during a jaunt to lens crafters?
I wouldn't chock that behavior to "red state values" or some provincial southern nuance. Educated members of our society in mid level government positions *did* chock up Atta's behavior to cultural differences and didn't call his bullshit out of some sort of misguided notion of sensitivity.
Someone not wanting to shake your hands certainly isn't threating. If that same guy who decided not to shake your hand was wearing his Grand Dragon underoos and muttering crap about kilin' obama while trying to buy 50' of rope, would that make you suspicious?
You're not getting it--I think they screwed up. But not because they were 'sensitive'. I think they were stupid, and didn't follow smart procedures
Can you really get Grand Dragon underoos? Not that I want any.
| 883 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:22:32pm |
re: #880 Cato the Elder
I think they knew he was dangerous. They certainly knew he was a shitty psychiatrist. I guess we'll find out in twenty years when the FOIA request reveals the facts of the case, but I would certainly not put it past the military to avoid a lawsuit from CAIR or whatever by giving a loose Muslim cannon pass after pass after pass.
Well, crap. Does anyone out there have common sense any more?
| 884 |
caliphibian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:22:35pm |
re: #642 Sharmuta
re: #642 Sharmuta
First- try the reply and quote buttons.
Second- you're assuming he showed signs to other muslims that he was troubled, and we have no idea if that's the case at all. There are numerous other examples of sociopathic killing sprees where friends, relatives and neighbors were not aware there were issues with the killer, so trying to blame his religious community for not stopping him is a bit of a reach.
Re #642 Sharmuta
#644 Swamprat
I guess my nuance meter isn't as finely tuned as your's are. I made what I thought was a commom sense objective statement trying to emphasize the point that this murderer acted on the teachings in his holy book, the Koran, and that since he was born into a Muslim family,
grew up in a Muslim family, and practiced Islam in his adult life that maybe the Muslim faith had more than a passing influence on his thinking. Or are you suggesting the authorities should put equal weight on discovering how many time he rented "The St. Valentine's Day Massacre" from the local Blockbuster? If it makes you feel better I will
include as people who influenced his thinking every person he ever met and every book, radio and television program, movie, video, visual object, or subliminal message he was exposed to during his entire life.
What he did was related to the teachings of his faith, Islam. He had the choice of resigning his commission, but in civilian life he would still be acting and thinking based on his religious beliefs. I am not blaming all Muslims for his actions. I am blaming those Muslims who taught him to hate all non-Muslims. Everyone around him were the first line of defense against these hateful teachings.
| 885 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:25:56pm |
re: #884 caliphibian
I made what I thought was a commom sense objective statement trying to emphasize the point that this murderer acted on the teachings in his holy book
You're assuming his motivation was jihad. I think his motivation was avoiding deployment and he happened to be a religious man.
| 886 |
njdhockeyfan Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:28:17pm |
re: #885 Sharmuta
You're assuming his motivation was jihad. I think his motivation was avoiding deployment and he happened to be a religious man.
I'm thinking jihad.
Sorry.
| 887 |
saik0max0r Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:32:10pm |
re: #885 Sharmuta
I think his motivation was avoiding deployment and he happened to be a religious man.
He couldn't smoke a doobie and fail a whiz quiz, or do any of the other stuff that can get you out while still being cool with allah or whatever?
I'd be inclined to believe your theory if this was some enlisted 19 year old kid who was picked on and was scared witless This guy was 39, An officer and a physician... doesn't pass the 'poor impulse control' test.
| 888 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:48:39pm |
re: #886 njdhockeyfan
I'm thinking wannabe jihad. He didn't want to go to Afghanistan.
| 889 |
Wozza Matter? Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:48:44pm |
re: #885 Sharmuta
he was - by accounts - a psychiatrist who had heard myriad tales of woe from soldiers coming back... particularly about deaths of civillians. Muslim civillians.
Personally, i think he was a devout muslim who got pushed further and further toward the edge - resorting in the "vengence" he seeked against those who had been killing his brothers and sisters.
I don't personally buy it as a Jihadi act designed to hasten the decline of the Great Satan - i don't think that holds as much water as the devoutly Muslim psychiatrist who went over the edge, not saying it was a sudden shooting spree, he may have planned it - but out of revenge not the advance of te Caliphate.
| 890 |
ryannon Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:50:33pm |
re: #809 njdhockeyfan
Can you provide an example to show where universal health care has worked?
France.
But please, I don't want to argue about it.
Read up and decide for yourself.
| 891 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Nov 6, 2009 5:57:22pm |
re: #885 Sharmuta
You're assuming his motivation was jihad. I think his motivation was avoiding deployment and he happened to be a religious man.
re: #886 njdhockeyfan
I'm thinking jihad.
Sorry.
I'm thinking it's a mixture of column A and B mixed with a man who had become deeply unhappy with his life and had allowed himself to become soul-crushingly isolated on a social level. I very much doubt that the reasons, the triggers, and the lessons of this incident will be found in any single, simplistic word. Just my opinion.
| 892 |
Bagua Fri, Nov 6, 2009 6:05:08pm |
re: #885 Sharmuta
You're assuming his motivation was jihad. I think his motivation was avoiding deployment and he happened to be a religious man.
Avoiding deployment by murdering 13 people and wounding 30 others?
| 893 |
caliphibian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 6:10:58pm |
re: #885 Sharmuta
You're assuming his motivation was jihad. I think his motivation was avoiding deployment and he happened to be a religious man.
re: #885 Sharmuta
#885 Sharmuta
I think you might be living in a parallel universe. Close, but not quite there yet. Major Hasan could have said he was now a conscientious objector due to his religious beliefs. He could have gone up to the base commander and kicked him in the groin. He could have attacked an MP with his hands. But instead he chose to kill 13 people and wound many others, all while screaming "Allah Akbar". I rest my case.
| 894 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 6:17:51pm |
re: #893 caliphibian
I agree with wozzablog and goddamnedfrank that it's more complicated than what your explanation is. I think this asshole was deeply disturbed, and used his religion as a means to give himself an identity as well as a support system. I am not denying it played a role, but that doesn't mean he was a jihadist. If he regains consciousness and states he was on jihad, I will be the first to tell you you were correct, but until then I'm going to leave it at violent deployment resistance and wait for more information.
| 895 |
Bagua Fri, Nov 6, 2009 6:25:54pm |
re: #890 ryannon
France.
But please, I don't want to argue about it.
Read up and decide for yourself.
Good joke.
France claims it long ago achieved much of what today's U.S. health-care overhaul is seeking: It covers everyone, and provides what supporters say is high-quality care. But soaring costs are pushing the system into crisis. The result: As Congress fights over whether America should be more like France, the French government is trying to borrow U.S. tactics.
| 896 |
Bagua Fri, Nov 6, 2009 6:28:44pm |
Anyone who plans and executes a mass murder spree in which they kill 13 and seriously wound 31 is a terrorist. They may not be affiliated with an organized group, but they are terrorists, plain and simple.
| 897 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 6:29:14pm |
re: #896 Bagua
Anyone who plans and executes a mass murder spree in which they kill 13 and seriously wound 31 is a terrorist. They may not be affiliated with an organized group, but they are terrorists, plain and simple.
And I won't argue with you on that point.
| 898 |
caliphibian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 6:39:32pm |
re: #894 Sharmuta
I agree with wozzablog and goddamnedfrank that it's more complicated than what your explanation is. I think this asshole was deeply disturbed, and used his religion as a means to give himself an identity as well as a support system. I am not denying it played a role, but that doesn't mean he was a jihadist. If he regains consciousness and states he was on jihad, I will be the first to tell you you were correct, but until then I'm going to leave it at violent deployment resistance and wait for more information.
re: #894 Sharmuta
re # 894 Sharmuta
I never meant to say that he was on a specific jihad, just that he at the end used the same logic to justify his actions as the jihadis. His default decision was to just blow everyone away because he was mad about having to go into a combat zone where Muslims were being killed.
He wasn't even going to be in combat.
| 900 |
Eclectic Infidel Fri, Nov 6, 2009 7:08:12pm |
Well, good on NPR for airing this piece.
| 901 |
Eclectic Infidel Fri, Nov 6, 2009 7:20:41pm |
re: #885 Sharmuta
You're assuming his motivation was jihad. I think his motivation was avoiding deployment and he happened to be a religious man.
Yeah, but shooting soldiers while screaming Allahu Akbar suggests otherwise.
| 902 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 7:28:00pm |
re: #898 caliphibian
re: #894 Sharmuta
re # 894 Sharmuta
I never meant to say that he was on a specific jihad, just that he at the end used the same logic to justify his actions as the jihadis. His default decision was to just blow everyone away because he was mad about having to go into a combat zone where Muslims were being killed.
He wasn't even going to be in combat.
What you said was:
I made what I thought was a commom sense objective statement trying to emphasize the point that this murderer acted on the teachings in his holy book
It sure looked like you were saying he was on jihad. I still don't think he's an islamist, I think he's a poser- a wannabe jihadist. I think it's more complicated than blaming islam.
| 903 |
caliphibian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 8:04:36pm |
re: #902 Sharmuta
It sure looked like you were saying he was on jihad. I still don't think he's an islamist, I think he's a poser- a wannabe jihadist. I think it's more complicated than blaming islam.
re: #902 Sharmuta
Lets just call a truce. He based his decision on what his religion encouraged and sanctioned, whether he thought he was on a jihad or not.
| 904 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 8:16:48pm |
re: #903 caliphibian
No- I'm not calling a truce with this comment. I do not think he based his decision on his religion, but rather his deployment orders. No deployment, no rampage.
And thinking on this more, I am going to say this wasn't jihad because this wasn't about advancing islam, this was about getting out of a deployment mission.
| 905 |
lostlakehiker Fri, Nov 6, 2009 8:18:58pm |
re: #508 webevintage
Really?
A lunatic?And you really think that the President is spending time worrying about FOX and ignoring Afghanistan? That he went to Dover AFB and met those coffins and it had no effect on him, that he does not think that the troops deserve a realistic, winnable strategy?
Obama is no lunatic. But it seems that he is altogether a political animal, and he thinks in terms of the nightly ratings. So for him perhaps the question is not whether the troops deserve a realistic, winnable strategy, but rather, how he can avoid making a black and white decision that can later be laid at his doorstep.
So we won't get a realistic strategy, except perhaps by accident. We'll get a strategy that makes sense only from a domestic political perspective. With any luck, it won't be a terrible failure on the battlefield.
| 906 |
Bagua Fri, Nov 6, 2009 8:52:29pm |
re: #902 Sharmuta
It sure looked like you were saying he was on jihad. I still don't think he's an islamist, I think he's a poser- a wannabe jihadist. I think it's more complicated than blaming islam.
A wannabe jihadist?
Good lord, he murdered 13 and wounded 31 in the most horrendous terrorist attack on a US military base on US soil in modern history.
Was Lee Harvey Oswald a wannabe assassin as he lacked a membership card in the assassins guild.
If your point is he wasn't affiliated with a "proper" terrorist group, so far that appears to be the case. But note that many terrorists act alone or upon opportunity or after some perceived insult in the Middle East.
If your point is that he had personal grievances or was really angry, well most of these terrorists can cite personal grievances as well, it is their sense of personal and collective grievance that largely motivates them.
| 907 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 8:55:52pm |
re: #906 Bagua
So- any muslim who commits violence is on jihad, is that what you're saying?
| 908 |
Bagua Fri, Nov 6, 2009 9:12:22pm |
re: #907 Sharmuta
So- any muslim who commits violence is on jihad, is that what you're saying?
Define violence, if it involves an obviously well planned attack targeting US Soldiers in a terrorist attack by an apparently devout Muslim man obsessed with Islam then jihad is the most likely answer.
Jihad is also a word whose definition and meaning the terrorist would have know culturally. To us he is a lunatic and an aberrant monster, in his apparent culture he is a shaheed, a martyr.
| 909 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 9:23:08pm |
re: #908 Bagua
Define violence, if it involves an obviously well planned attack targeting US Soldiers in a terrorist attack by an apparently devout Muslim man obsessed with Islam then jihad is the most likely answer.
Jihad is also a word whose definition and meaning the terrorist would have know culturally. To us he is a lunatic and an aberrant monster, in his apparent culture he is a shaheed, a martyr.
His culture is American! He was born and raised here, and we hardly have a culture that supports glorifying mass murderers.
And I have to say I don't think you can call all islamic violence "jihad". Would muslim bank robbers be on jihad, or would they just be criminals who were muslims? Did Hasan shave all his body hair? And how do you know this was well planned? Do you really think he was trying to spread islam, or was he trying to get out of going to Afghanistan?
| 910 |
WaveriderCA Fri, Nov 6, 2009 9:24:17pm |
re: #883 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, crap. Does anyone out there have common sense any more?
Common sense when brought to blows with policital correctness can get you a nice fat bucket of trouble. Especially when dealing with race or religion.
| 911 |
caliphibian Fri, Nov 6, 2009 9:29:59pm |
re: #903 caliphibian
re: #903 caliphibian
re: #902 Sharmuta
Lets just call a truce. He based his decision on what his religion encouraged and sanctioned, whether he thought he was on a jihad or not.
Fine. You have your opinion and I have mine. You refuse to look at what is staring you in the face, and want to explore every other possibility except the most probable. As news comes in about his past statements, you still have a completely open mind at this point. I don't give a damn about what he was upset about or what triggereed it, I care about what he did and why he thought it was a justifiable action.
The more I think about it, you are part of the problem. Instead of emphasizing that these types of actions by any religion are unacceptible, you are still saying he just didn't want to be deployed. No way, no how. Murdering 12 or 13 people and wounding many more is
not the action that the average person would expect from a Baptist, Roman Catholic, Jew, Hindu, or atheist under the same circumstances.
I seem to remember that you work in the social services arena. I can understand that you want to know about Hasan's personality. I am not saying that I am 100% certain, maybe 80%. You seem to be concentrating on the 20%.
| 913 |
Bagua Fri, Nov 6, 2009 9:49:32pm |
re: #909 Sharmuta
His culture is American! He was born and raised here, and we hardly have a culture that supports glorifying mass murderers.
He is a devout Muslim, there are many subcultures in America. There are indications he identified strongly with this culture. In that culture jihad and shaheed are well known.
And I have to say I don't think you can call all islamic violence "jihad". Would muslim bank robbers be on jihad, or would they just be criminals who were muslims?
I am talking about people carrying out terrorist attacks such a mass murders. A simple shoplifter or jaywalker would not be suspected of jihad.
Did Hasan shave all his body hair?
We don’t have many confirmed details. My opinion is based upon the appearances and media reports.
And how do you know this was well planned? Do you really think he was trying to spread islam, or was he trying to get out of going to Afghanistan?
The success of the attack demonstrates it was well planned and methodically carried out. He had two guns and more that 44 rounds of ammo with spare magazines, with more in his car. That’s a lot of ordinance to be carrying around casually. He also chose a location and event where he would find many unarmed soldiers in an ambush.
Eyewitness accounts say he was calm, methodically and accurate in his shooting and tactics. He obviously put time into developing that sort of skill level that one wouldn’t expect of an army psychiatrist. That he was not stopped despite being outnumbered by combat trained soldiers shows he was well prepared and well trained.
I don’t buy the “he didn’t want to be deployed” excuse. Jihad is not only about organised plots and formal groups.
| 914 |
Bagua Fri, Nov 6, 2009 9:54:04pm |
re: #911 caliphibian
[...] The more I think about it, you are part of the problem. [...]
Don't be foolish. Sharmuta is a truth speaker, not a problem.
| 915 |
Sharmuta Fri, Nov 6, 2009 11:37:08pm |
re: #913 Bagua
Here's the deal- I think the man had a number of personal problems- problems that he would have filtered in and out through his islamic faith. When people of other faiths snap or "go postal", we don't emphasize their faith to this extent- for example, we didn't consider Scott Roeder to be a Crusader, so I'm not willing to call this jihad as of yet.
Additionally- had Hasan been a civilian, I would not be so reluctant to call this jihad, but he wasn't a civilian- he's an officer in the army. He wasn't targeting the "enemy" so much as colleagues.
I'm not ruling out SJS. I'm waiting for more details, and trying to keep my fear of fundamentalists in check.
| 916 |
Mike DeGuzman Sat, Nov 7, 2009 4:05:02am |
re: #578 Cato the Elder
What I want to know is why the military keeps a lousy psychiatrist whose colleagues call him a shitbag or douchebag or whatever "blankbag" stands for in NPR-speak, transfers him around, lets him give "medical lectures" about Koranic hellfire, and then wonders what went wrong when he cracks.
Seems like multiple people were asleep at the wheel, here.
Political correctness. Maj Hasan belongs to a religious group that was protected. The Army knew about his strong beliefs and ideology but did nothing. Besides they invested too much money on him for his medical schooling.
| 917 |
littleugly Sat, Nov 7, 2009 4:26:41am |
915 Sharmuta
I think the man had a number of personal problems- problems that he would have filtered in and out through his Islamic faith.
He did not, it is a fact, what are you talking about?
When people of other faiths snap or "go postal", we don't emphasize their faith to this extent- for example, we didn't consider Scott Roeder to be a Crusader
You are lucky that Ice, Xxxmah and a few others are on your side and accept your "WE" , for you would be fact checked immediately otherwise.
As for me, yes, been around since day one, do not post much but follow the site daily.
BTW Sharmuta, it is Malik Nidal Hasan or Malik Hasan or Nidal Hasan or an adjective Hasan or since he is not a civilian as you correctly stated.
Major Malik Nidal Hasan. I would think that you do not want to create a cult following by just casually coining a namesake. (apellido in Spanish)
| 919 |
funky chicken Sat, Nov 7, 2009 6:46:50am |
re: #909 Sharmuta
His culture is American! He was born and raised here, and we hardly have a culture that supports glorifying mass murderers.
And I have to say I don't think you can call all islamic violence "jihad". Would muslim bank robbers be on jihad, or would they just be criminals who were muslims? Did Hasan shave all his body hair? And how do you know this was well planned? Do you really think he was trying to spread islam, or was he trying to get out of going to Afghanistan?
He self-identified as Palestinian at his mosque, according to his Imam. I'll take Hasan's word for it--he viewed his culture as "Palestine."
| 920 |
jason97m Sat, Nov 7, 2009 7:13:26am |
So, I am going to have to disagree with Sharmuta as well, looking at how much emphasis he put on hating the US policy in Iraq and Afghanistan, it was only a matter of time before he acted. Folks in his class recall him giving a briefing about how it was OK for suicide bombers to do their thing...again really freaking them out...he was a ticking time bomb of religious hatred towards infidels, the deployment just set him off, and the best target was American soldiers. Now, had he gone to a mall or other place, I would say he is just a deranged looney...but this was a calculated hit to kill soldiers in the name of allan (h). This is domestic terrorism, not someone going crazy at random, triggered by deployment orders.
| 921 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 7:41:12am |
re: #917 littleugly
You are lucky that Ice, Xxxmah and a few others are on your side and accept your "WE" , for you would be fact checked immediately otherwise.
I don't know why you think Xxxmah and his overlord being "on my side" matters (BTW- they're not). Fact check my ass all you'd like. I don't recall a single Lizard calling Roeder a Crusader, but I also didn't comment much on those threads, so perhaps I missed it.
| 922 |
Perplexed Sat, Nov 7, 2009 7:44:09am |
The guy was a coward. So was the DC sniper and the guy who attacked at the EL AL counter in LA. Victims were all defenseless, unable to mount an effective response, and taken unawares.
Tap, tap, tap. Sympathy meter at zero. Try him on murder one charges in a military court, and if found guilty then send him off to find out what is on the other side of eternity.
| 923 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 7:55:13am |
re: #920 jason97m
I dinged you down for this inaccurate comment:
Folks in his class recall him giving a briefing about how it was OK for suicide bombers to do their thing
This is not true. Investigators are looking to see if an internet comment stating this position was made by him. They don't know if it was made by him, and it certainly wasn't a comment made to "his class".
And some folks wonder why I'm hesitant to call it "jihad". Call it whatever you'd like, I am personally withholding calling him a jihadi until I learn more, such as if he shaved his body hair as a jihadist would do.
| 924 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:03:34am |
re: #919 funky chicken
He self-identified as Palestinian at his mosque, according to his Imam. I'll take Hasan's word for it--he viewed his culture as "Palestine."
I can self-identify as an Italian, but it's not going to mean I'm culturally Italian.
| 925 |
Eclectic Infidel Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:47:13am |
re: #924 Sharmuta
While all this banter is interesting, we simply don't have all the facts yet. But on a personal note, it is difficult to refrain from making strong statements of opinion.
| 926 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:49:54am |
re: #925 eclectic infidel
Yes- it is. And I said yesterday that if he was indeed a lone jihadist, then it's fitting a woman took him down. I'm not ruling out SJS, I'm just trying to avoid coming to that conclusion without more evidence.
| 927 |
captdiggs Sat, Nov 7, 2009 2:16:18pm |
Political correctness gets people killed.
The Army just learned that lesson. They knew of his...ummm...*peculiarities*, but turned a blind eye due to the self defeating morass of political correctness that also has airport security scrutinizing 89 year old grandmothers with the same eye as say..a 25 year old man from the middle east.
| 928 |
Timmeh Sat, Nov 7, 2009 4:23:30pm |
I don't usually agree with Mark Steyn, but I agree with this article:
I didn't know that Steyn was a "New Atheist."
In America anything that falls under the category of religion is immune from normal critical inquiry.
If the Scientology scam wasn't protected by claiming to be a religion, it would considered organized crime, a fraud racket. As it is in France.
When it emerged early on Thursday afternoon that the shooter was Nidal Malik Hasan, there appeared shortly thereafter on Twitter a flurry of posts with the striking formulation: “Please judge Major Malik Nadal [sic] by his actions and not by his name.”
Tweeters: America elected a president whose middle name is Hussein. Nuff said about that.
Concerned Tweeters can relax: There was never really any danger of that — and not just in the sense that the New York Times’s first report on Major Hasan never mentioned the words “Muslim” or “Islam,” or that ABC’s Martha Raddatz’s only observation on his name was that “as for the suspect, Nadal Hasan, as one officer’s wife told me, ‘I wish his name was Smith.’”
What a strange reaction. I suppose what she means is that, if his name were Smith, we could all retreat back into the same comforting illusions that allowed the bureaucracy to advance Nidal Malik Hasan to major and into the heart of Fort Hood while ignoring everything that mattered about the essence of this man.
(The whole article is worth a read IMHO.)
| 929 |
jason97m Sat, Nov 7, 2009 6:21:43pm |
#923 Sharmuta
That statement was made during a televised interview with one of Hasan's classmates/fellows from Walter Reed.
| 931 |
EE Mon, Nov 9, 2009 3:48:57pm |
People at Walter Reed have been told, it is reported, NOT to talk to the FBI, because there is a fear that it will be discovered that warning signs about Hasan were ignored, and there is a fear that there is some culpability. Isn't that an attempt to subvert the system of justice? Why is it tolerated?
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teleskiguy
Hawaii’s Mauna Loa Observatory Just Captured Ominous Signals About the Planet’s Health Hawaii’s Mauna Loa Observatory just captured an ominous sign about the pace of global warming. Atmospheric levels of planet-warming carbon dioxide aren’t just on their way to yet another record high this year - they’re rising faster than ever, ... Cheechako
The Good Liars at the Schnecksville Trump Rally [VIDEO] New theories, great tunes and SHOCKING breaking news. SUPPORT US: http://Herohero.co/thegoodliars SEE THE GOOD LIARS LIVE!WASHINGTON D.C. MAY 23RD: https://www.unionstage.com/shows/good-liars-fix-america/NASHVILLE, TN JUNE 6TH: https://www.etix.com/ticket/p/42992972/the-good-liars-nashville-the-lab-at-zaniesSAN FRANCISCO, CA JUNE 25TH: https://www.livenation.com/event/G5vYZbavGvggG/the-good-liars SUBSCRIBE TO OUR AUDIO PODCAST:Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-good-liars-tell-the-truth/id1731178442Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7mgfiwzr32907N4y68eFOCJoin this channel ... teleskiguy
Trump’s “Stolen Election” Lie Based on Evidence From Pervy Bathroom Cam-Spy OK, this really takes the cake. If you have relatives that still cling to the “election was stolen, dadgum, I jes’ KNOW IT … This should be a slight remedy to the stubborn madness Thanks to online anonymity, the ...
Khal Wimpo (free internal organs upon request!)
Best of April 2024 Nothing new here but these are a look back at the a few good images from the past month. Despite the weather, I was quite pleased with several of them. These were taken with older lenses (made from the ...
William Lewis
Gateway Pundit, Sued by Election Workers, Declares BankruptcyA onetime favorite, now just pathetic figure around these parts, Jim Hoft aka SMOTI ("Stupidest Man On The Internet"), has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in response to the defamation lawsuits filed against him to the same election workers that ... Khal Wimpo (free internal organs upon request!)
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ... Cheechako
Grocers Are Finally Lowering Prices as Consumers Pull Back Consumers have been grumbling about the soaring cost of groceries for nearly two years. Now, some of the biggest names in retail appear to be listening. In recent weeks, Target and Aldi have broadcast price cuts on thousands of ... Cheechako
