A Solution for the ‘Black Carbon’ Problem?

Environment • Views: 4,693

Here’s an interesting suggestion for one thing we could do right away to slow down climate change for “only” $15 billion.

Weaning humanity from its fossil fuel habit will take decades, and it will take decades more for global warming to stop. But one simple measure could slow warming in some of Earth’s most sensitive regions, effective immediately — and it would cost just $15 billion.

That’s a rough price tag for providing clean stoves to the 500 million households that use open fires, fed by wood and animal dung and coal, to heat their homes and cook. Those fires produce one-quarter of all so-called “black carbon,” a sooty pollutant that’s adding to the planetary heat burden.

“We know how to cook without smoke,” said Veerabhadran Ramanathan, a University of California, San Diego climatographer. “A clean stove costs $30. Multiply that by 500 million households, and it’s only $15 billion. This is a solvable problem.”

After floating to the atmosphere, black carbon mixes with dust to form a solar heat-absorbing particulate layer. Raindrops form around the particles, trapping even more heat. Soot deposited by the rain heats up, too.

The climate dynamics of the black carbon process have been fully described only in the last decade, but scientists now say their short-term impact sometimes rivals that of carbon dioxide. As much as one-half of the 3.4 degree Fahrenheit rise in Arctic temperatures since 1890 is attributed to black carbon. By disrupting weather patterns, it may be responsible for weakening seasonal rains in South Asia and West Africa. And black carbon is also a major reason why Himalayan glaciers, which provide water to hundreds of millions of people, are vanishing.

UPDATE at 12/16/09 1:57:26 pm:

Here’s a video showing how the “clean stoves” work:

Youtube Video

(From StoveTeam International.)

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144 comments
1 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:48:10pm

Great. Now we're gonna get a barbecue czar.

2 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:49:29pm

So the 'developing' nations have no responsibility towards the current state of climate change? riiiiiiight.

3 Slap  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:49:34pm

A barbecued czar?

4 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:50:24pm

what is a clean stove and how does it work?

5 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:52:49pm

Here's one clean stove: the 'Ecocina'.

[Link: www.bioenergylists.org...]

6 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:52:51pm

re: #4 albusteve

Does 'clean stove' include a pellet stove? 'Cause one of those came with the current Casa de Fenway and I freakin' love it! Too bad the little wooden pellets used to fuel it can be hard to find sometimes.

7 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:53:09pm

Here's some more detail about black carbon from Nature Geoscience

[Link: www-ramanathan.ucsd.edu...]

8 Gearhead  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:53:24pm

If only carbon were white...

9 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:53:32pm

re: #4 albusteve

what is a clean stove and how does it work?

Apparently it allows them to burn the fuel that they currently use more efficiently. This practically eliminates the smoke, getting rid of the black carbon component. This idea has many advantages beyond simply getting rid of pollutants and distributing these stoves is something that is already being done.

10 Locker  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:53:41pm

At first I read this and was like "What? How are you gonna power these "clean stoves" and then I actually took the trouble to read the article. The stoves in question still use the same type of fuel they just use a lot less of it and cook food much more quickly and efficiently.

11 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:53:45pm

Video of the Ecocina stove:

12 Gearhead  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:54:07pm

What about diesel soot?

13 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:54:43pm

re: #8 Gearhead

If only carbon were white...

A little pressure and heat and it is clear.

14 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:54:44pm
15 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:55:02pm

re: #12 Gearhead

You know that Rush song Red Barchetta?
/

16 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:56:14pm

re: #11 Charles

Video of the Ecocina stove:


Nice. Reduced emissions, reduced wood use and it reduces respiratory damage.

17 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:56:23pm

rocket stoves...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Some of them are small for portability with insulation inside a double-walled design with a chamber for partial biomass gasification and additional mixing to increase BTUs and provide a cleaner, more complete burn. The advantage of these rocket stoves is very little fuel they need, such as wood and dry weeds, to be able to cook a whole meal with it, keeping the air more clean with less hydrocarbons.

cool idea

18 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:56:41pm
19 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:56:50pm

re: #4 albusteve

what is a clean stove and how does it work?

Clean burning propane, as Hank Hill would say.

This is more of a particulate pollution problem than a gaseous emissions problem. They're burning wood, coal, dung and other low-grade combustibles inefficiently and incompletely, so they throw off a lot of soot as a result. They could even just stick with coal if they used stoves that promoted more complete combustion, although it would be better to switch to something more like propane or natural gas that produce far few particulates. Even something like a Coleman stove powered with gasoline would be preferable.

But that would cost maybe ten or fifteen bucks per household, and places like India and China don't want to spend money they can shake the West down for.

See "Asian Brown Cloud" for more on this. The toll it takes in respiratory disease is stunning. It's been a well understood problem for a couple of decades now.

20 Gearhead  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:57:17pm

If we could get it to self-assemble into graphene and nanotubes, they could turn their dirty stoves into cold, hard cash.

21 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:58:06pm

re: #11 Charles

Video of the Ecocina stove:

[Video]

get them to Haiti ASAP

22 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:58:09pm

re: #18 ruswmrun

You could just walk away, no flounce needed.

23 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:59:17pm

That's our first clean stove flounce.

24 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 1:59:39pm

re: #19 SixDegrees

See "Asian Brown Cloud" for more on this. The toll it takes in respiratory disease is stunning. It's been a well understood problem for a couple of decades now.

Is that anything like a Tijuana Brown Trout?

25 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:00:00pm

A pretty quiet flounce too. Odd.

26 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:00:14pm

re: #23 Charles

That's our first clean stove flounce.

MICROWAVE OR DIE!!11!1

27 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:00:15pm

re: #23 Charles

That's our first clean stove flounce.

very little fuel, complete combustion...

28 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:00:30pm

re: #22 CyanSnowHawk

You could just walk away, no flounce needed.

too late. ask and ye shall receive.

what's unfortunate is the inability to hang out with folks who have different sorts of ideas. i disagree with lizards here all the time. and yet i love it here.

hmmmm...

29 Gearhead  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:00:48pm

re: #24 CyanSnowHawk

Is that anything like a Tijuana Brown Trout?

Delicious when cooked on a clean stove flounce.

30 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:01:21pm

re: #28 Aceofwhat?

and yet i love it here.

hmmm...

Do not!
/

31 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:01:24pm

Well, at least he flounced over an important issue.

32 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:01:50pm

re: #28 Aceofwhat?

Exactly. That's a part of what makes it fun around here. That, and I might actually learn something by hanging out with people I disagree with. What a concept!

33 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:02:33pm

Stove Team International

How it all began...

...

When she returned to Eugene, Oregon, she asked her Rotary club, the Southtowne Rotary Club, about sponsoring a grant to provide safer, fuel-efficient stoves to the people in Central America. They encouraged her to write the grant proposal, and she not only wrote that grant but went on to apply for grants from Carlos Santana’s Milagro Foundation and Synchronicity Foundation. Those initial grants helped create StoveTeam International, an organization that addresses preventable problems caused by smoky open fires in rural homes. These problems include debilitating upper respiratory, eye and skin diseases, tragic burns and untreated hernias caused by carrying heavy loads of firewood.

See, she got some help from the Rotary Club! Pretty cool.

34 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:02:34pm

re: #29 Gearhead

Delicious when cooked on a clean stove flounce.

Eeww! Sounds too much like a Fear Factor food. No thanks.

35 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:03:02pm

these stoves are a terrific idea....easy, practical, and inexpensive...the kind of immediate solution that I can get behind....I'll donate today, right now

36 Bagua  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:03:14pm

Excellent: This is the sort of project we should all support.

Note that not only does this simple technology reduce soot and smoke, but it also reduces the amount of wood needed to cook with. Cooking has been a major factor in the destruction of the Haitian eco-system.

37 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:03:15pm

re: #34 CyanSnowHawk

Eeww! Sounds too much like a Fear Factor food. No thanks.

you're just not using the right sauce...

38 Irenicum  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:03:19pm

Dinner beckons. Maybe they'll have broiled flounce!

39 Bagua  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:03:49pm

re: #23 Charles

That's our first clean stove flounce.

There was a clean stove flounce? What possible objection dare I ask?

40 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:04:19pm

re: #6 Fenway_Nation

Answered your #30 in the last thread

41 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:05:15pm

re: #39 Bagua

There was a clean stove flounce? What possible objection dare I ask?

irreconcilable differences

42 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:05:41pm

re: #36 Bagua

And I imagine trying to constantly produce a sufficient amount of charcoal for cooking in most parts of Africa poses a similar burden.

43 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:06:19pm

re: #38 Irenicum

Dinner beckons. Maybe they'll have broiled flounce!

Or mince up nice and fine and cooked up in a pie. Minced flounce pie, mmmm.

44 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:06:55pm

re: #43 CyanSnowHawk

Or mince up nice and fine and cooked up in a pie. Minced flounce pie, mmm.

fluffy crust? i'm in...

45 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:07:31pm

they should be sticking these things all over subSahara Africa....maybe the already do...
[Link: www.solarpumps.com...]

46 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:07:38pm

re: #42 Fenway_Nation

And I imagine trying to constantly produce a sufficient amount of charcoal for cooking in most parts of Africa poses a similar burden.

They usually don't bother to produce charcoal. They just burn whatever's at hand directly.

47 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:08:28pm

Build a rocket stove

48 Gearhead  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09:04pm

re: #43 CyanSnowHawk

Or mince up nice and fine and cooked up in a pie. Minced flounce pie, mmm.

Great when you're just not in the mood for gamey buttocks.

49 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09:18pm

re: #46 SixDegrees

They usually don't bother to produce charcoal. They just burn whatever's at hand directly.

Not quite.

50 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09:30pm

re: #45 albusteve

they should be sticking these things all over subSahara Africa...maybe the already do...
[Link: www.solarpumps.com...]

Because the wind isn't clean enough!
///

51 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:09:49pm

re: #46 SixDegrees

They usually don't bother to produce charcoal. They just burn whatever's at hand directly.

you need alot of condensed hardwoods to make charcoal

52 Locker  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:10:18pm

re: #23 Charles

That's our first clean stove flounce.

I missed so I'm completely at a loss regarding how clean stoves could initiate a flounce. My only guess is that the guy bitched about Charles' initial post.

53 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:11:07pm

re: #52 Locker

I missed so I'm completely at a loss regarding how clean stoves could initiate a flounce. My only guess is that the guy bitched about Charles' initial post.

No, he just flounced. No mention of the topic.

54 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:11:45pm

re: #23 Charles

That's our first clean stove flounce.

hahahahahaha WHAT?

The best is still the They Might Be Giants flounce.

55 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:11:53pm

re: #52 Locker

I missed so I'm completely at a loss regarding how clean stoves could initiate a flounce. My only guess is that the guy bitched about Charles' initial post.

no big deal....does not deserve any attention, imo

56 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:12:03pm

re: #49 Fenway_Nation

Not quite.

Sorry; what I know about this problem is based more on what's done in India and the Caribbean, where wood is much scarcer.

57 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:12:19pm

re: #48 Gearhead

Great when you're just not in the mood for gamey buttocks.

I thought gamey buttocks was what you got after playing Twister for too long.

58 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:13:10pm

re: #51 albusteve

you need alot of condensed hardwoods to make charcoal

Apparently not as much of a problem in Africa, according to the link above. But it is in other parts of the world, where lower-grade fuel is used.

59 Bagua  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:13:44pm

re: #42 Fenway_Nation

And I imagine trying to constantly produce a sufficient amount of charcoal for cooking in most parts of Africa poses a similar burden.

Absolutely, it is a major factor in destruction of forests, critical on an isolated island like Haiti which has no real alternative. Starvation or trees, that is the stark choice.

60 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:16:02pm

re: #58 SixDegrees

Apparently not as much of a problem in Africa, according to the link above. But it is in other parts of the world, where lower-grade fuel is used.

or in the Amazon basin...eliminating forest has it's short term bennies for subsistence native poulations as well as big cattle growers eyc....good bye rainforest

61 Bagua  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:16:04pm

And note: in theory charcoal/wood cooking fuel is a renewable resource. But in application the trees are cut down, not replanted, so it becomes a diminishing resource. And of course, the resulting soil erosion means that the land can no longer support trees in the case of Haiti. A very bleak and despairing situation.

62 avanti  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:16:59pm

O.T. Beck is talking about the kids drawing himself on the cross story. BTW, no surprise, he's not mentioning the update. He's saying the kid was told to make a Christmas drawing. (wrong) The kid was suspended (wrong) and he's using the photoshopped drawing. He does not mention the schools side at all.

63 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:17:02pm

The rest of the story is how the stoves in current use shorten so many lifespans, the pollutants from cookfires used by millions if not billions per day are a big part of our problem.
Even a coal power plant with scrubbers and electric ranges would be better than what's going on now.

64 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:18:16pm

re: #56 SixDegrees

Actually, even tho' the Nat'l Geographic article predates it by about a year, I first heard about Central Africa's lucrative illicit charcoal trade here.

"Who we suppos to be goin' aftah this week Bob? Roving militias? Drug smugglers? Wildlife poachers?"

"Worse.....charcoal traffickers".

65 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:18:40pm

re: #63 Thanos

The rest of the story is how the stoves in current use shorten so many lifespans, the pollutants from cookfires used by millions if not billions per day are a big part of our problem.
Even a coal power plant with scrubbers and electric ranges would be better than what's going on now.

yes, these re going to be the victims of AGW...I see little hope for them

66 Kewalo  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:19:02pm

This is just terrific. And I think we're going to see more and more small innovations like this that change peoples lives.

I read about the merry-go-round water pumps earlier this year and it's another simple idea that is helping people too.

[Link: www.envirogadget.com...]
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

I think it shows that innovation doesn't have to be complicated to make a difference.

67 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:20:12pm

re: #62 avanti

O.T. Beck is talking about the kids drawing himself on the cross story. BTW, no surprise, he's not mentioning the update. He's saying the kid was told to make a Christmas drawing. (wrong) The kid was suspended (wrong) and he's using the photoshopped drawing. He does not mention the schools side at all.

Good. Maybe the embarrassing fact checking will shame some right wing bloggers into being more honest.

68 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:20:40pm

re: #66 Kewalo

This is just terrific. And I think we're going to see more and more small innovations like this that change peoples lives.

I read about the merry-go-round water pumps earlier this year and it's another simple idea that is helping people too.

[Link: www.envirogadget.com...]
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

I think it shows that innovation doesn't have to be complicated to make a difference.

it's more the implementation than the innovation...aid money for simple projects often ends up in the Cayman Islans

69 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:21:16pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Good. Maybe the embarrassing fact checking will shame some right wing bloggers into being more honest.

Dude...

70 myfriendwatson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:22:28pm

Not a good idea. I foresee a black market in smokeless stoves.

71 Kewalo  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:23:26pm

re: #68 albusteve

it's more the implementation than the innovation...aid money for simple projects often ends up in the Cayman Islans

Geeze, that's a depressing thought. And here I was sitting smiling for a change.

//

I still haven't gotten the / down yet. I hope that two // means I'm kidding.

72 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:23:39pm

re: #70 myfriendwatson

Not a good idea. I foresee a black market in smokeless stoves.

very cryptic...ooooo!....how so?

73 What, me worry?  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:23:42pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Good. Maybe the embarrassing fact checking will shame some right wing bloggers into being more honest.

.... holding breath ....

.... turning blue .....

.... thud .....

74 Bagua  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:24:10pm

re: #68 albusteve

it's more the implementation than the innovation...aid money for simple projects often ends up in the Cayman Islans

Absolutely accurate.

75 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:24:49pm

re: #71 Kewalo

Geeze, that's a depressing thought. And here I was sitting smiling for a change.

//

I still haven't gotten the / down yet. I hope that two // means I'm kidding.

who knows...I've never used sarc tags

76 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:25:56pm

Well, we had cash for clunkers. Why not cash for dung-burning stoves? That has a ring to it ...

77 myfriendwatson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:27:58pm

I'd much prefer to see private charities do this.

The church fellowship to which my church belongs is raising money for drilling trucks to establish wells in Africa. Great project.

A few years ago we had a project to buy water buffalo so they could farm. Tractors were out of the question because there very little gas available in this country. The ambassador of this country is a friend of mine. He says stop sending money and teach use how to do stuff for ourselves.

78 efuseakay  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:29:13pm

Sure... $15b... but then you get too many people involved... and even with that "minimal" price tag, fraud will be rampant. This actual solution is great, but it's the implementation that will cause it to fail, unfortunately. Does it mean we shouldn't try? Well...

79 Girth  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:29:14pm

re: #1 The Curmudgeon

Great. Now we're gonna get a barbecue czar.

You can have my hickory and mesquite chunks when you pry them from my cold, dead hand.

80 myfriendwatson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:29:18pm

Crap. I meant to say, stop sending us money and send us stuff that will allow us to help ourselves.

Sorry 'bout that.

81 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:30:19pm

re: #78 efuseakay

Sure... $15b... but then you get too many people involved... and even with that "minimal" price tag, fraud will be rampant. This actual solution is great, but it's the implementation that will cause it to fail, unfortunately. Does it mean we shouldn't try? Well...

have them delivered via the USMC...problem solved

82 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:30:23pm
83 Jaerik  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:33:48pm

I wish we would invest more of the public discourse in practical solutions like this.

Unfortunately, as long as the deniers successfully occupy 100% of the bandwidth making people fight over whether or not global warming even exists, we'll never get to.

84 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:34:10pm

re: #77 myfriendwatson

I'd much prefer to see private charities do this.

The church fellowship to which my church belongs is raising money for drilling trucks to establish wells in Africa. Great project.

A few years ago we had a project to buy water buffalo so they could farm. Tractors were out of the question because there very little gas available in this country. The ambassador of this country is a friend of mine. He says stop sending money and teach use how to do stuff for ourselves.

Actually, a lot of the third world resents the West's habit of throwing money at them. It insults them, and they would prefer aid that enabled them to solve their own problems using their own efforts.

These stoves, for example, are extremely easy to build - they don't require anything more than hand tools and simple, cheap materials. It's really the perfect sort of project to finance through micro-loans handled through local banks. There have been a number of success stories involving micro-loans in India, where they have been used to get thousands of small businesses off the ground with huge success and a default rate of nearly zero.

I think you're right - just send them the plans and show them how to make these themselves, employing local labor and, to the extent possible, local materials. So you not only get stoves out of the deal, but jobs and income.

85 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:35:30pm

re: #83 Jaerik

I wish we would invest more of the public discourse in practical solutions like this.

Unfortunately, as long as the deniers successfully occupy 100% of the bandwidth making people fight over whether or not global warming even exists, we'll never get to.

I think those who want to politicize the solutions share some of that responsibility. Meanwhile there are many good people quietly finding solutions to the problems and implementing them without having to get a billion dollar grant or permission from a consensus of UN member states.

86 myfriendwatson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:36:19pm

re: #84 SixDegrees

Exactly. But then again, I a RW conservative religious freak. And while I'm a AGW agnostic, I think this is GREAT idea so spare me the canard that people like me are anti-environment.

87 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:37:11pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Good. Maybe the embarrassing fact checking will shame some right wing bloggers into being more honest.

Like you attributing the photo shop to Malkin (or someone else) instead of the source local newspaper?

I know ,, I know ,, you're not in the mood to "squabble"!

88 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:38:00pm

re: #78 efuseakay

Sure... $15b... but then you get too many people involved... and even with that "minimal" price tag, fraud will be rampant. This actual solution is great, but it's the implementation that will cause it to fail, unfortunately. Does it mean we shouldn't try? Well...

There is, unfortunately, a very high risk of fraud and exploitation, even using the microfinancing I mentioned above.

89 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:38:46pm

re: #86 myfriendwatson

Exactly. But then again, I a RW conservative religious freak. And while I'm a AGW agnostic, I think this is GREAT idea so spare me the canard that people like me are anti-environment.

Uh - what?

90 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:40:02pm

re: #86 myfriendwatson

Does that come with a secret decoder/ translator ring!?!?

91 myfriendwatson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:40:03pm

re: #89 SixDegrees

That was in response to #83 who suggested that anti-GW people are preventing this from being discussed. That's not true.

92 Jaerik  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:40:08pm

re: #85 DaddyG

I think those who want to politicize the solutions share some of that responsibility.

No question, but if we could just move the debate forward to get to that point, we could move on to arguing about the political ramifications of the proposed solutions. That debate would seem more intellectually honest to me.

"Back-filling" the argument by saying "Some people are politicizing the solution so I refuse to even accept the problem" has never sat right with me.

93 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:40:26pm

re: #86 myfriendwatson

Exactly. But then again, I a RW conservative religious freak. And while I'm a AGW agnostic, I think this is GREAT idea so spare me the canard that people like me are anti-environment.

hahaha!...what?

94 DaddyG  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:40:41pm

re: #88 SixDegrees

There is, unfortunately, a very high risk of fraud and exploitation, even using the microfinancing I mentioned above.

It can be done... Grameen Bank

95 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:41:05pm

re: #91 myfriendwatson

That was in response to #83 who suggested that anti-GW people are preventing this from being discussed. That's not true.

Oh. You replied to my post, and I couldn't figure out what your reply had to do with it. Thanks for the correction.

96 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:41:30pm

re: #95 SixDegrees

Oh. You replied to my post, and I couldn't figure out what your reply had to do with it. Thanks for the correction.

Had me shaking my noggin also!

97 myfriendwatson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:41:41pm

newbie

98 albusteve  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:42:11pm

re: #97 myfriendwatson

newbie

lurk

99 sattv4u2  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:42:56pm

Ah well ,,,, heading home

Have a great evening

100 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:44:22pm

re: #99 sattv4u2

Fare thee well, broadcast viewing recepticle of the sattelite based persuasion!

101 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:45:01pm

re: #94 DaddyG

It can be done... Grameen Bank

Absolutely. Overall, I'm a big fan of this. In fact, I think similar programs might be useful right here in the US to help people in places like Detroit bootstrap themselves into a better life. Nearly everyone who visits comments on the blasted ruins the city has become, yet also mention the tremendous energy of it's citizens in the face of such devastation. Solid raw material to work with; maybe all it needs is encouragement in a form like this.

102 Guanxi88  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:46:14pm

There's even a few variations on the rocket stove concept that convert some of the fuel mass to bio-char, for soil amendment and carbon sequestration. That's assuming they don't just fish the charcoal out and use that for other fuel purposes.

The rocket stoves are a great example of sustainable technology for the developing world. Locally manufactured, in many cases from salvaged materials, they can provide work and income for locals while simultaneously reducing emissions.

The other great concept, and one that pairs up nicely with the rocket stove, is the retained heat cooker (bean box, for those old enough to remember them) - a large, well-insulated box to hold a pot of food brought to boiling temps, it holds the food at cooking temperature for hours, futher reducing the need to tend a fire and freeing up labor for other uses.

This stuff isn't rocket science.

103 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:48:09pm

re: #98 albusteve

lurk

Speaking of lurking - well, in a very tangential way - I hear there's a new stage production opening in Chicago: The Addams Family Musical. Moving to Broadway in the spring.

Early reviews have not been kind.

104 Gus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:48:23pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Good. Maybe the embarrassing fact checking will shame some right wing bloggers into being more honest.

(OT)

Yeah, let's wait for that retraction. And guess which mouth breather said this:

A second-grader in Taunton, MA was kicked out of school, suspended, and ordered to undergo a mental evaluation for…

…drawing a picture of Jesus Christ on the cross.

One picture of Jesus gets a kid booted from the classroom!11!!1

But Fort Hood killer Nidal Hasan’s years of jihadist threats got him…a promotion and access to open season on our troops!!!111!!11

And GLSEN founder Kevin Jennings’ not-safe-for-school radical activism got him…a job as Safe Schools czar!11!!!1

Lunacy.

When in fact:

A teacher found the artwork of Jesus on a cross Dec. 2.

"The report is totally inaccurate,'' Hackett told The Globe Tuesday. "The inaccuracies in the original media story have resulted in a great deal of criticism and scrutiny of the system that is unwarranted.''

The superintendent said school personnel saw the drawing as a potential cry for help when the boy identified himself, not Jesus, on the cross, prompting the teacher to alert the school's principal and staff psychologist, The Globe said.

When the story was first published, Taunton Mayor Charles Crowley asked Hackett to apologize to the family. However, Crowley told The Globe he now stands by the superintendent.

The Globe said the editor of the Gazette did not return calls Tuesday.

105 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:48:26pm

OK all.....back to work for me. Play nice and stuff and junk.

106 myfriendwatson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:48:34pm

re: #103 SixDegrees
Wouldn't that be "Lurching"?

107 darthstar  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:48:40pm

re: #8 Gearhead

If only carbon were white...

Then it would be a sacrament.
/

108 Guanxi88  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:48:55pm

Retained heat cooker - on Instructables, yet:

[Link: www.instructables.com...]

109 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:49:52pm

Oh....and check your mailbox (again), soxfan.

110 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:50:40pm

re: #106 myfriendwatson

Wouldn't that be "Lurching"?

There was a fair amount of lurking in the original cartoons. Some of it done by Lurch, in fact.

111 myfriendwatson  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:52:01pm

re: #110 SixDegrees

You're right, of course. I forgot, Gomez.

112 Decatur Deb  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:57:16pm

re: #108 Guanxi88

Retained heat cooker - on Instructables, yet:

[Link: www.instructables.com...]


'Nother site: Afrigadget

[Link: www.afrigadget.com...]

113 Kewalo  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:57:23pm

re: #82 DaddyG

Kid Powered

I just think this is the coolest. Happy kids and plenty of water close by. Good for BYU!

114 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 3:14:47pm

re: #112 Decatur Deb

'Nother site: Afrigadget

[Link:

115 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 3:18:58pm

re: #112 Decatur Deb

'Nother site: Afrigadget

[Link:

116 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 3:19:21pm

hmm, wtf is wrong here. Is it just me?

117 RogueOne  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 3:20:54pm

Just for future reference, the first 2 posts of mine I was trying to quote and respond to DD's post. It seems to be taking out 1/2 the tag somewhere and then not adding my response at all. weird.

118 bosforus  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 3:25:49pm

This actually seems like a pretty darned good idea. For one big reason. It still uses wood, which means there's no infrastructure development needed for a new fuel source.
The one thing that did catch my eye, however was this:

— and it would cost just $15 billion.


To who, exactly?

119 coscolo  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 3:35:33pm

re: #68 albusteve

I like the idea of efficient stoves to burn local fuels, like even more Ed Begley, Jr.'s "solar stove" I saw demonstrated on TV some time ago -- no fuel needed at all. I'm cynical about giving money to most of the developing world and expecting this to happen -- too many sticky fingers and retirement accounts in Swiss banks or elsewhere. If the "first world" is going to help the "third world" with AGW, perhaps they should give these stoves, clean water systems, etc., instead of cash.

120 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 3:55:39pm

re: #119 coscolo

Giving the stoves is far superior than giving the money, I agree. As well as an explanation of why.

121 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 4:02:44pm

Its all ball bearings these days.

122 Guanxi88  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 4:32:17pm

re: #119 coscolo

I dunno about giving them out - defeats the local economy that way. better to provide technical instruction and/or seed money for local workshops to make and sell them.

Last thing the developing world needs is more cargo-cult nonsense from the developed world; they have everything they need right where they are, and do not need well-intentioned outsiders parachuting in with pre-fab solutions.

123 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 4:46:56pm

re: #122 Guanxi88

That's a horrible misuse of the phenomenon of 'cargo cult'. It doesn't apply to actually giving working, low-tech stuff that continues to work after Westerners are gone.

124 lightspeed  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 4:50:18pm

A practical, low-cost solution that will reduce carbon emissions? Bring it on. Whether you believe in AGW or not, products like this should be a no-brainer. I can't believe there was actually a flounce in this thread.

125 Guanxi88  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 4:53:08pm

re: #123 Obdicut

That's a horrible misuse of the phenomenon of 'cargo cult'. It doesn't apply to actually giving working, low-tech stuff that continues to work after Westerners are gone.

Dropping a finished product into an environment that can support the production of it does little more than to continue the conditions that led to the need for the item to be produced elsewhere.

Any time the thing can be made locally, it should be made locally, or else you sap the local economy and build dependence on outsiders. "Cargo-cult" is exactly what you end up with.

It's like the folk who go about dumping grain into the developing world - they foster dependence and kill agriculture. The whole point of appropriate technologies, like the rocket stoves and the retained heat cookers, are that locals can make them.

126 Guanxi88  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 4:58:10pm

re: #123 Obdicut

That's a horrible misuse of the phenomenon of 'cargo cult'. It doesn't apply to actually giving working, low-tech stuff that continues to work after Westerners are gone.

And the term is completely applicable to ANY case where outside goods just appear thanks to outsiders. The developing world is never going to "develop" if its local farmers and manufacturers have to compete with free goods made elsewhere.

I'm amazed it's even controversial at all to suggest this.

Look, things like the bikes made in China you see all over Africa - of course they're not made locally - the facilities to manufacture them don't yet exist. But the facilities to repair and modify them do. Now, let's say some well-meaning outsiders start dumping bikes, free of charge, into the equation. What happens? The repairmen lose work, the importers and merchants lose business, and you've killed a vital part of the local economy.

Same with the stoves - why make them outside and then ship them at great expense to be given away? You've just spent a ton of money and done nothing to help the local population to help itself. Sure, they've all got stoves, but the metal workers and vendors have no business selling them.

127 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 4:58:39pm

re: #125 Guanxi88

Cargo cult refers to the phenomenon whereby relatively uncontacted tribes would, upon observing the building of airstrips and ports etc. and the subsequent arrival of goods, conclude that building these things made the planes and boats come. They either kept the airstrips and ports up afterwards, or built new ones, hoping that cargo would, indeed, come. It evolved or was interpreted in a religious aspect, much like asking a boon from the gods.

You are attempting to shoehorn that to fit this; it doesn't. "Cargo cult" is not in the least bit like putting a finished product into an environment that can support the production of it.

You can make your argument without abusing a really cool anthropological phenomenon.

Cargo Cult

If you give them simple, sustainable technology and teach them how to use it, it bears zero relationship to cargo cult behavior. None at all.

If all you're saying is that giving them tech instead of teaching them how to build it is bad for their development-- just say that. Cargo cults are unrelated.

128 Guanxi88  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 4:59:35pm

re: #127 Obdicut

Cargo cult refers to the phenomenon whereby relatively uncontacted tribes would, upon observing the building of airstrips and ports etc. and the subsequent arrival of goods, conclude that building these things made the planes and boats come. They either kept the airstrips and ports up afterwards, or built new ones, hoping that cargo would, indeed, come. It evolved or was interpreted in a religious aspect, much like asking a boon from the gods.

You are attempting to shoehorn that to fit this; it doesn't. "Cargo cult" is not in the least bit like putting a finished product into an environment that can support the production of it.

You can make your argument without abusing a really cool anthropological phenomenon.

Cargo Cult

If you give them simple, sustainable technology and teach them how to use it, it bears zero relationship to cargo cult behavior. None at all.

If all you're saying is that giving them tech instead of teaching them how to build it is bad for their development-- just say that. Cargo cults are unrelated.

My apologies to any cargo cultists offended by the comparison.

129 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:01:17pm

re: #128 Guanxi88

It's just a completely flawed comparison, no need to apologize to anyone. Your point is fine-- more than fine; the invocation of cargo cults just makes it seem like it isn't.

130 Bagua  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 6:22:38pm

Not at all a flawed comparison, while Obdicut is describing the original use of the term Cargo Cult within the field of anthropology, it has also entered the lexicon in the form Guanxi88 correctly noted:

Other uses of the term


From time to time, the term "cargo cult" is invoked as an English language idiom to mean any group of people who imitate the superficial exterior of a process or system without having any understanding of the underlying substance. The error of logic made by the islanders consisted of mistaking a necessary condition (i.e., building airstrips, control towers, etc.) for cargo to come flying in, for a sufficient condition for cargo to come flying in, thereby reversing the causation. On a lower level, they repeated the same error by e.g. mistaking the necessary condition (i.e. build something that looks like a control tower) for building a control tower, for a sufficient condition for building a control tower.

The inception of cargo cults often is defined as being based on a flawed model of causation, being the confusion between the logical concepts of necessary condition and sufficient condition when aiming to obtain a certain result. Based on this definition, the term "cargo cult" also is used in business and science to refer to a particular type of fallacy whereby ill-considered effort and ceremony take place but go unrewarded due to flawed models of causation as described above. For example, Maoism has been referred to as "cargo cult Marxism",[citation needed] and New Zealand's optimistic adoption of liberal economic policies in the 1980s as "cargo cult capitalism".

131 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 8:34:39pm

re: #130 Bagua

Dude, there's no flawed mode of causation if you give them a bunch of stoves and tell them, "Here, these burn wood cleaner than your old stoves, without making as much smoke," they really can understand how that works. They also understand that foreign countries exist, and the concept of people from far away bringing them stuff for their own reasons that are not related to gods. This is not the 1940s.

132 shipper  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 9:13:26pm

Charles and everyone, have you read the second Freakonomics book? One chapter discusses a proposed solution for global warming that sounds quite promising and very inexpensive. I would recommend both Freakonomics books anyway, as I find them to present a wonderful, rational way to look at the world, but that chapter is definitely worth promoting, IMHO.

133 shipper  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 9:15:44pm

re: #132 shipper

Oh, the book is called SuperFreakonomics. Sorry, should have said that in the first place.

134 Bagua  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 9:22:05pm

re: #131 Obdicut

Dude, there's no flawed mode of causation [...]

I am not addressing the validity of the point in fact, rather correcting your overly orthodox use of the term's usage. I believe that is clear. The use of the term is correct in context but debatable in fact, thus the discussion.

135 Jerusalemyte  Wed, Dec 16, 2009 10:34:48pm

Let's hear it for LOW Tech!!

136 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 3:39:30am

re: #124 lightspeed

A practical, low-cost solution that will reduce carbon emissions? Bring it on. Whether you believe in AGW or not, products like this should be a no-brainer. I can't believe there was actually a flounce in this thread.

I'm not sure it actually reduces carbon emissions so much as shift them to another form. The problem these stoves address is particulate pollution - bits of unburned carbon that result from incomplete combustion. Or, as it's known, soot. The result of the complete combustion that takes place is CO2.

So if the typical stove is 10% efficient, 10% of the fuel will be converted into heat and CO2, and the other 90% will be converted into uncombusted particulate carbon.

If you manage to crank the efficiency up to 100%, ALL of the fuel is converted into CO2 and heat, and none of it is wasted as unburned particles. So the same amount of fuel will produce 10 times the heat - and 10 times the CO2 emissions - as it would in the old-style stoves.

Of course, you also only have to burn 1/10 the amount of fuel in the first place. But note that your CO2 emissions remain the same no matter which stove you use. What changes is the amount of particulate pollution given off.

This isn't a bad thing at all. The particulate matter contributes to respiratory disease, localized, short term climate effects, skin rashes, eye problems and all sorts of other unpleasantness. And the demand for fuel has stripped very large areas of trees and even shrubs, so making the fuel go farther can have a dramatic impact on forest management.

But as far as CO2 emissions go, it's about the same either way as far as I can see.

137 TDG2112  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 6:25:03am

/. has a post up. The Rusians are claiming data from their stations was tampered with by western scientists


Slashdot.org


Article linked from /. article


So it looks like the Russians have decided that Global warming benefits their ability to get to the oil up in Siberia. Heck, it makes their whole country more livable. Damn, have they been reading Slashdot and playing Civilization?

Game Theory applied to the whole Climate Change thing (I hope I got the link right) If I messed it up, somebody else will have to find it, I'm incommunicado for the next 3 days. But it basically lays out how impossible it will be to get any kind of agreement that countries will follow to address Climate Change.

138 Robert O.  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 7:21:45am

Sorry to bust your bubbles, Charles. It's not going to cost $15 billion - Clinton just promised $100 billion a year - money America doesn't have right now with a $1 trillion deficit. What are they going to do? Borrow another $100B a year from China to pay China, and then pay interest on that amount?

And no, I am no climate change denier (I am as against those fools as anybody). I firmly believe we need to develop renewable energy as quickly as possible. At each technological change, we have always re-organized our economy to be better off for it. But we NEVER gave away $100 billion handouts to other people when we are broke at home. Right now, we don't even have $100 billion for America's healthcare, and our infrastructure is crumbling. How about Congress spent $100 billion AT HOME to fund the development of energy by US companies, and provide financial incentives for AMERICAN FAMILIES to get clean energy? But no, like the Europeans, we have soft ears and when the developing world DEMAND we hand over money we don't have, we give it. That's the way it is. I am afraid Obama is now very quickly losing the support at the center.

139 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 8:52:18am

re: #138 Robert O.

Sorry to bust your bubbles, Charles. It's not going to cost $15 billion - Clinton just promised $100 billion a year

Uh - the topic of this post is a specific proposal regarding a specific project. It is unconnected to any US foreign aid programs or other allocations. It's about stoves, and nothing else, and no country in particular has been singled out to support it.

140 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 9:53:46am

re: #138 Robert O.

Sorry to bust your bubbles, Charles. It's not going to cost $15 billion - Clinton just promised $100 billion a year - money America doesn't have right now with a $1 trillion deficit. What are they going to do? Borrow another $100B a year from China to pay China, and then pay interest on that amount?

I love this. You didn't even read the post before spewing your denialist nonsense.

Utterly shameless.

141 Robert O.  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 11:06:12am

As a matter of fact, I did read the post.

"Denialist". Did you even read what I wrote? If I am a "Denialist", would I say I am against climate change denial, and suggest we should be providing incentives to develop renewable energy in America?

And referring to #139, all the opening post says is it takes $15 billion, nowhere is it even mentioned where the money comes from.

Just to repeat: I BELIEVE Global Warming is true. I HATE right-wing Climate-change denialists. I HATE Glenn Beck / Sarah Palin / Islamists / etc. And I am also AGAINST giving away $100 billion every year (money we don't have) to other countries when it could be put to much better use at home.

Now, where else are you going to pigeon-hole me?

142 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 11:30:55am

re: #141 Robert O.

You started your comment with an insult ("bust your bubble") and then showed that if you did read the post, you didn't understand it at all.

How about admitting that you were wrong, first, before you go on the attack?

143 SixDegrees  Thu, Dec 17, 2009 11:46:27am

re: #141 Robert O.


And referring to #139, all the opening post says is it takes $15 billion, nowhere is it even mentioned where the money comes from.

Yes, that was exactly my point - that your diatribe over Clinton's speech was in no way linked to the thread topic. That they are completely unrelated. That they have nothing to do with one another. And that the $15 billion is the projected cost of such a project, with no mention of where the money was to come from.

Unlike your subject sentence,

It's not going to cost $15 billion - Clinton just promised $100 billion a year

which explicitly ties one to the other and puts the US on the hook for payment.

144 RexMundi  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 10:12:07am

See...this is the type of cool shit that I long for. Solutions. Not to mention that this is a rather inexpensive one.


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