Aw, shucks! The 2009 Weblog Awards have been called off.
Imagine my disappointment. I was so looking forward to taking a bubble bath in the flood of hatred and vitriol directed against yours truly that was certain to ensue. Oh well. Maybe next year.
2 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:09:01pm |
Talk about blog FAIL…they can’t figure out how to take a million hits over a given time period?
Unfortunately the resources required to handle the load of voting (nearly 1,000,000 votes in 2008) could not be adequately provisioned. Even if the servers and bandwidth required appeared today it would be at least a few weeks before everything could be ready for voting.
Use a simple form (get rid of the flash animation and all that crap. A simple server pool can handle a ton of 25kb form posts).
| 3 |
vxbush Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:09:32pm |
Hmmm. They are claiming a lack of resources to handle the voting process is the issue.
| 4 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:09:41pm |
re: #2 darthstar
And by ‘resources’ I assume they mean money.
| 5 |
vxbush Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:10:18pm |
re: #2 darthstar
Talk about blog FAIL…they can’t figure out how to take a million hits over a given time period?
Use a simple form (get rid of the flash animation and all that crap. A simple server pool can handle a ton of 25kb form posts).
And would be extremely open to fraud. They don’t want folks to spam the servers, which would results in gazillions of votes.
| 6 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:11:11pm |
re: #3 vxbush
Hmmm. They are claiming a lack of resources to handle the voting process is the issue.
/and I don’t think they are the kind of folks to ask for ACORN’s help…
| 7 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:11:42pm |
| 8 |
rwdflynavy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:11:53pm |
re: #5 vxbush
And would be extremely open to fraud. They don’t want folks to spam the servers, which would results in gazillions of votes.
Probably Diebold machines too!
//
| 9 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:13:44pm |
re: #5 vxbush
And would be extremely open to fraud. They don’t want folks to spam the servers, which would results in gazillions of votes.
Oh, I know about voter fraud…back in 2000 when the Republican primaries were just getting started, I voted for Pat Buchanan 37,000 times in two hours on a CBS news poll (it was a dumb poll, and Bush was leading Gore by 3%…Buchanan was at about 2% total, and I bumped him up to 17% of the overall vote…sadly, CBS pulled the poll from their website and it never made the nightly news). And I did it with only 25 virtual users.
Session IDs and IP logging would stop that from happening.
| 10 |
MandyManners Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:20:28pm |
re: #3 vxbush
Hmmm. They are claiming a lack of resources to handle the voting process is the issue.
Let’s loan them some ACORN folks.
| 11 |
MandyManners Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:20:59pm |
re: #6 brookly red
/and I don’t think they are the kind of folks to ask for ACORN’s help…
Beat me to it!
| 12 |
MandyManners Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:21:44pm |
re: #9 darthstar
Oh, I know about voter fraud…back in 2000 when the Republican primaries were just getting started, I voted for Pat Buchanan 37,000 times in two hours on a CBS news poll (it was a dumb poll, and Bush was leading Gore by 3%…Buchanan was at about 2% total, and I bumped him up to 17% of the overall vote…sadly, CBS pulled the poll from their website and it never made the nightly news). And I did it with only 25 virtual users.
Session IDs and IP logging would stop that from happening.
Didn’t it wear your fingers to the bone?
| 13 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:21:47pm |
OT:
Here’s an ethics question. Would an airstrike against a facility such as the one indicated in this story be justified, even if many of those killed turn out to be kids under 18 when the purpose of said facility is to indoctrinate and brainwash those kids to be suicide bombers and terrorists?
| 14 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:22:00pm |
Is that the one where the one guy sends out the emails and bases the ratings off the 10% returns he does get back?
| 15 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:22:18pm |
| 16 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:23:20pm |
| 17 |
iceweasel Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:24:22pm |
re: #9 darthstar
Oh, I know about voter fraud…back in 2000 when the Republican primaries were just getting started, I voted for Pat Buchanan 37,000 times in two hours on a CBS news poll (it was a dumb poll, and Bush was leading Gore by 3%…Buchanan was at about 2% total, and I bumped him up to 17% of the overall vote…sadly, CBS pulled the poll from their website and it never made the nightly news). And I did it with only 25 virtual users.
Session IDs and IP logging would stop that from happening.
Heh. I like you!
back later.
| 18 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:24:23pm |
re: #13 lawhawk
OT:
Here’s an ethics question. Would an airstrike against a facility such as the one indicated in this story be justified, even if many of those killed turn out to be kids under 18 when the purpose of said facility is to indoctrinate and brainwash those kids to be suicide bombers and terrorists?
If the other options placed your forces at risk unnecessarily and other options would allow the enemy personnel to escape or recover quickly, then yes.
| 19 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:24:28pm |
re: #13 lawhawk
OT:
Here’s an ethics question. Would an airstrike against a facility such as the one indicated in this story be justified, even if many of those killed turn out to be kids under 18 when the purpose of said facility is to indoctrinate and brainwash those kids to be suicide bombers and terrorists?
Ethics aside. It wouldn’t be smart. You’ll just insight twice the amount of people who were in the buildings who may have not been sympathetic to the cause or on the fence. If that building was in a vacuum and there would be no collateral damage, go for it. Otherwise, not smart.
| 20 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:24:37pm |
re: #9 darthstar
Oh, I know about voter fraud…back in 2000 when the Republican primaries were just getting started, I voted for Pat Buchanan 37,000 times in two hours on a CBS news poll (it was a dumb poll, and Bush was leading Gore by 3%…Buchanan was at about 2% total, and I bumped him up to 17% of the overall vote…sadly, CBS pulled the poll from their website and it never made the nightly news). And I did it with only 25 virtual users.
Session IDs and IP logging would stop that from happening.
one more reason I don’t trust polls…
| 23 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:27:04pm |
re: #5 vxbush
And would be extremely open to fraud. They don’t want folks to spam the servers, which would results in gazillions of votes.
There’s absolutely no way to safeguard against fraud in an Internet poll.
That’s why this award has been meaningless since the start. It isn’t measuring anything except who can muster the cleverest spammers.
And when the ‘Best Science Blog’ award goes to climate change denier Anthony Watts, that shows you how much of a joke these awards really are.
| 24 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:28:05pm |
re: #13 lawhawk
OT:
Here’s an ethics question. Would an airstrike against a facility such as the one indicated in this story be justified, even if many of those killed turn out to be kids under 18 when the purpose of said facility is to indoctrinate and brainwash those kids to be suicide bombers and terrorists?
No. It’s called a school. Even if we don’t agree with what is being taught. Someone could claim the same logic would apply to Jesus Camp here in the US because the kids are being indoctrinated to hate the “other” in our society…and it’d still be wrong.
| 26 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:29:09pm |
re: #19 recusancy
Ethics aside. It wouldn’t be smart. You’ll just insight twice the amount of people who were in the buildings who may have not been sympathetic to the cause or on the fence. If that building was in a vacuum and there would be no collateral damage, go for it. Otherwise, not smart.
Many people fail to see the other side of the arguement. If one makes it a point to engage and pursue the enemy, striking at them at every chance, many people will also decide its not worth the risk to themselves or people they know to join up.
| 27 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:29:28pm |
re: #13 lawhawk
OT:
Here’s an ethics question. Would an airstrike against a facility such as the one indicated in this story be justified, even if many of those killed turn out to be kids under 18 when the purpose of said facility is to indoctrinate and brainwash those kids to be suicide bombers and terrorists?
I’m sure you’ll find some right wingers who would see nothing wrong with it. But I’d say absolutely not.
Leaving aside the immorality of deliberately killing children, it would be incredibly stupid from a public relations standpoint too.
| 28 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:29:35pm |
re: #13 lawhawk
just glad I don’t have to be the one making that decision…
| 29 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:30:11pm |
re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Are they the enemy, the children, then?
| 30 |
Ojoe Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:31:16pm |
re: #29 Obdicut
What a terrible dilemma.
Actually the enemy is the mental system that sanctions that.
| 31 |
John Neverbend Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:31:44pm |
OT: I found this on Pharyngula.
In fact, Google is also “sensitive” about Mithraism, so PZ’s arguments fall to the ground.//
| 32 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:32:04pm |
re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Many people fail to see the other side of the arguement. If one makes it a point to engage and pursue the enemy, striking at them at every chance, many people will also decide its not worth the risk to themselves or people they know to join up.
So all al quaeda needs to do is start bombing our schools and we’ll fold because we don’t want to risk ourselves? I would think that would provoke anger and more ferver for the fight. And yes I know it’s not an exact comparison.
| 33 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:32:10pm |
re: #19 recusancy
You think that an airstrike to take out such a facility would incite the relatives (the folks who sent their kids to the facility) beyond their already irrational desire to see their kids become suicide bombers?
re: #24 darthstar
You could call it a school, or you could call it a terror training camp. Or an indoctrination facility - the output of said school, camp, or facility is suicide bombers and terrorists whose intentions are to murder those who are considered enemies of those who set up the school and those who aren’t sufficiently Islamic enough for their teachers.
I’m not sure I’d carry out airstrikes against the facility, but the Pakistani military carried out military ops in the vicinity and drove off the Taliban who ran the “school” and they found this barbarism in full evidence. How many lives did they save by shutting down this facility?
| 34 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:32:15pm |
re: #29 Obdicut
Are they the enemy, the children, then?
Would you let a child kill you or your family if you could stop it?
| 35 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:34:58pm |
re: #32 recusancy
So all al quaeda needs to do is start bombing our schools and we’ll fold because we don’t want to risk ourselves? I would think that would provoke anger and more ferver for the fight. And yes I know it’s not an exact comparison.
Plenty of revolutions throughout history have collapsed because leaders could not get people to fight for them due to fear of reprisals from a greater power.
| 36 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:35:14pm |
re: #30 Ojoe
What a terrible dilemma.
Actually the enemy is the mental system that sanctions that.
But the kids would be what were dying. The teachers sure, but a bunch of kids who are being indoctrinated, too.
I don’t think the rational response to children being indoctrinated is to kill those children. Can you explain how that is going to in any way damage the ‘mental system’?
re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
How on earth is that question related to this situation?
| 37 |
SteveC Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:35:48pm |
The banjo is considered “a deadly weapon” under Colorado law, so Stancato could face prison time, the Aspen Daily News reported.
I knew the banjo was an acquired taste, but come on…
//
| 38 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:36:59pm |
re: #33 lawhawk
The problem with extremists is that they take literally the ‘eye for an eye’ revenge fantasy. You kill my brother, and I am bound to take revenge….that kind of thing. Blow up a school full of children, and every cousin who survives will be dedicated to exacting revenge, and it only takes one of them to be successful.
How many lives are saved? None. Lives are saved when you either a) stop an aggressor in the process of trying to take lives or b) prevent people from wanting to be aggressors (not something you can do by force).
| 39 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:38:01pm |
re: #35 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Plenty of revolutions throughout history have collapsed because leaders could not get people to fight for them due to fear of reprisals from a greater power.
I keep hearing the Islamic Terrorism is a huge existential threat. Now I’m told that if we bomb some schools they’ll lose their will and fall.
| 40 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:38:06pm |
re: #33 lawhawk
This is the modern version of “We had to burn the village to save it”?
| 41 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:38:21pm |
Terrorist would never attack school children. Say in Beslan.
| 42 |
Ojoe Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:38:55pm |
re: #36 Obdicut
Well we are in an area here devoid of niceties & the brutal-ism of Sherman comes into play, and of course Sherman was a humanitarian in the big picture.
But the picture hurts the eyes.
The mental picture is damaged when people think “hey, this is not working.”
What a mess.
| 43 |
Ben Hur Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:39:09pm |
And the Nazis and Japanese aggression was stopped with conversation.
| 44 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:39:09pm |
re: #41 Cannadian Club Akbar
Terrorist would never attack school children. Say in Beslan.
You’re missing the point.
| 45 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:39:45pm |
re: #36 Obdicut
But the kids would be what were dying. The teachers sure, but a bunch of kids who are being indoctrinated, too.
I don’t think the rational response to children being indoctrinated is to kill those children. Can you explain how that is going to in any way damage the ‘mental system’?
re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
How on earth is that question related to this situation?
The facility is turning children into killers. Once they have a gun in their hands or rigged with a bomb, they become an enemy whether we like it or not. I dont think an airstrike would be the most viable option, but that was the only option lawhawk asked about.
| 46 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:39:47pm |
re: #41 Cannadian Club Akbar
Terrorist would never attack school children. Say in Beslan.
Last time I checked, the United States wasn’t a nation of terrorists.
| 47 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:40:07pm |
re: #43 Ben Hur
And the Nazis and Japanese aggression was stopped with conversation.
We’re talking about terrorism, not full-scale international war. Please try to keep up.
| 48 |
Ben Hur Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:40:27pm |
re: #46 Charles
Last time I checked, the United States wasn’t a nation of terrorists.
I’m sure some on the Left would disagree with you.
| 49 |
Ben Hur Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:41:42pm |
re: #47 darthstar
We’re talking about terrorism, not full-scale international war. Please try to keep up.
That’s right I forgot.
Suddenly terrorism exists and we’re not at war.
| 50 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:41:52pm |
re: #37 SteveC
I knew the banjo was an acquired taste, but come on…//
Do you know what “perfect pitch” is?
It’s when you toss an accordion into a dumpster and it lands on a banjo.
| 51 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:42:15pm |
Okay…time to head downstairs to the gym for a quick workout before my 1:30 meeting. Cheers, everyone.
| 52 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:43:06pm |
re: #38 darthstar
How many lives are saved? None. Lives are saved when you either a) stop an aggressor in the process of trying to take lives or b) prevent people from wanting to be aggressors (not something you can do by force).
I don’t agree with your parenthetical. You can prevent rational people from being aggressors by force. Rational people grow sick of war and death, leading to statements like “The most disadvantageous peace is better than the most just war.” and “There was never a good war or a bad peace.” I do feel that the military destruction visited upon Japan and Germany helped to defeat the foolish ideas of race-superiority that they had.
The problem with attacking Jihadi types with force is the whole martyrdom and oppression thing. they’re stylizing themselves as the underdog, the struggling one. They say they will eventually triumph, but they obviously aren’t, and yet they still acquire recruits. The recruits are not joining up for any rational reason of believing they will win due to the record of success the Jihad has had.
re: #42 Ojoe
Can you remind me when Sherman killed a bunch of children?
re: #45 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And you’re willing to kill the children because they may attack the US? Because they’re being taught to attack the US upon the command of their superiors/masters/ideological leaders, whatever?
For that, the children need to die?
| 53 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:43:31pm |
re: #47 darthstar
We’re talking about terrorism, not full-scale international war. Please try to keep up.
well let’s just hope it doesn’t continue escalating cause it could just go there.
| 54 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:44:12pm |
OT- My radio just said the State Department revoked the undie bombers visa.
| 55 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:44:14pm |
re: #33 lawhawk
You think that an airstrike to take out such a facility would incite the relatives (the folks who sent their kids to the facility) beyond their already irrational desire to see their kids become suicide bombers?
re: #24 darthstar
You could call it a school, or you could call it a terror training camp. Or an indoctrination facility - the output of said school, camp, or facility is suicide bombers and terrorists whose intentions are to murder those who are considered enemies of those who set up the school and those who aren’t sufficiently Islamic enough for their teachers.
I’m not sure I’d carry out airstrikes against the facility, but the Pakistani military carried out military ops in the vicinity and drove off the Taliban who ran the “school” and they found this barbarism in full evidence. How many lives did they save by shutting down this facility?
The Pakistanis handled this exactly the right way.
| 56 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:44:21pm |
re: #53 brookly red
well let’s just hope it doesn’t continue escalating cause it could just go there.
It still wouldn’t be the same thing as Germany and Japan.
| 57 |
Girth Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:44:30pm |
Hah, just saw this on CNN, from a Minneapolis/St. Paul Star Tribune editorial with respect to Bachmann urging people last year to not cooperate with the census:
It’s ironic that a Minnesota member of Congress, Republican Michele Bachmann, went so far last summer to declare her intention to only partially complete her census forms, and to suggest reasons for others not to comply with the census law. If Minnesota loses a congressional seat, Bachmann’s populous Sixth District could be carved into pieces. She likely would have to battle another incumbent to hang on to her seat. We’ve noticed that her anticensus rhetoric has lately ceased. We hope she got wise: Census compliance is not only in Minnesota’s best interest, but also her own.
Irony is delicious.
| 58 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:44:51pm |
re: #38 darthstar
By the same token, taking out the school - and the terrorists teaching the kids to be suicide bombers could save lives by eliminating the persons passing on technical know-how to be bombers as well as short-circuiting the indoctrination.
That doesn’t mean I’d support an airstrike against the facility because as you note if some relative survives, they’ll go on to vow revenge, but that too shows just how difficult it is to stamp out terrorists who have familial and tribal alliances and who seek to impose their way of life on everyone else via high explosives.
What this example once again highlights is the barbarism and brutality of those that we face - and by we I mean anyone who isn’t sufficiently Islamic enough for the Taliban/al Qaedists. That includes Pakistanis, Afghans, Westerners, Muslims, and non-Muslims.
| 59 |
Gus Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:45:24pm |
re: #13 lawhawk
OT:
Here’s an ethics question. Would an airstrike against a facility such as the one indicated in this story be justified, even if many of those killed turn out to be kids under 18 when the purpose of said facility is to indoctrinate and brainwash those kids to be suicide bombers and terrorists?
My answer, no. Unless it was a facility in which they were actively engaged in combat activity. Otherwise, if military action were to be taken it would be best to utilize ground forces in this case.
| 60 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:46:09pm |
re: #56 recusancy
It still wouldn’t be the same thing as Germany and Japan.
actually with today’s technology it could be far worse.
| 61 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:46:35pm |
re: #54 Cannadian Club Akbar
OT- My radio just said the State Department revoked the undie bombers visa.
Well, thats a relief.
///
| 62 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:47:03pm |
re: #59 Gus 802
Also: Think of the soldiers. Think of the airmen who bomb the facility, knowing that there are children there. We owe it to our soldiers to regard them as human beings and not just instruments of the will of the United States.
| 63 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:47:24pm |
re: #57 Girth
Indeed. Congressional apportionment is based on a census conducted every 10 years. If you don’t get everyone within a state counted, it can mean lost representation in the House - and with it a loss in tax dollars that get apportioned by population. So, calls to not fulfill your obligation to be counted in the census is an action against your own self-interest.
| 64 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:48:54pm |
re: #54 Cannadian Club Akbar
OT- My radio just said the State Department revoked the undie bombers visa.
[Link: www.miamiherald.com…]
| 65 |
The Sanity Inspector Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:49:27pm |
re: #3 vxbush
Hmmm. They are claiming a lack of resources to handle the voting process is the issue.
Maybe some clever somebody could come up with a “cloud computing” solution for next time around.
| 66 |
Four More Tears Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:51:33pm |
MSNBC reporting Minn/St. Paul airport shut down. Rough day for fliers.
| 67 |
Ojoe Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:52:49pm |
re: #58 lawhawk
You cannot effectively deal with their barbarism by totally civilized means.
| 69 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:53:32pm |
re: #52 Obdicut
The Taliban is already using kids just like this as frontline combatants to fight for them. I think its a tragedy but what are the armed forces options for dealing with this?
| 70 |
Gus Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:53:32pm |
re: #62 Obdicut
Also: Think of the soldiers. Think of the airmen who bomb the facility, knowing that there are children there. We owe it to our soldiers to regard them as human beings and not just instruments of the will of the United States.
True. That’s why I think if something like this was accurate simply dropping a 2,000 lbs. JDAM on top of a bunch of “brainwashed” teenagers, regardless if they’re terrorists, would result in international condemnation. Since they are teenagers, we would also be looking at a large mix of collateral injuries and deaths.
| 71 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:53:50pm |
re: #67 Ojoe
You cannot effectively deal with their barbarism by totally civilized means.
War is never civilized. Nobody’s advocating to be civil.
| 72 |
The Sanity Inspector Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:54:00pm |
re: #48 Ben Hur
I’m sure some on the Left would disagree with you.
I believe that the correct formulation is that the government is a bunch of terrorists, and the population is a bunch of little Eichmanns.
| 75 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:57:04pm |
OT:
The shooter in yesterday’s attack at the Las Vegas federal courthouse apparently had a long criminal record, including facing murder charges in Memphis TN in the 70s and sex assault in Sacramento CA in the 1980s. Before going on the shooting spree in Vegas, he torched his Vegas apartment before walking to the courthouse.
| 76 |
political lunatic Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:57:22pm |
OT: Yes, I know it’s a diary on Daily Kos, but something about the wingnuts on the Texas Board of Education controlling the nation’s textbooks in public schools absolutely frightens me. If this continues, I’m afraid of this country becoming a theocracy in my lifetime thanks to brainwashed kids in public schools.
[Link: www.dailykos.com…]
| 77 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:58:52pm |
For those wondering why Michael Yon may have been asked financial questions…..
USA PATRIOT Act, Title III
| 78 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:58:58pm |
re: #13 lawhawk
OT:
Here’s an ethics question. Would an airstrike against a facility such as the one indicated in this story be justified, even if many of those killed turn out to be kids under 18 when the purpose of said facility is to indoctrinate and brainwash those kids to be suicide bombers and terrorists?
Fight indoctrination with indoctrination. Build a buttload of good schools where Mommy and Daddy can send the kidlets for an education and a few good squares - make the state responsible for installing moderate Muslim (and other) instructors. I suspect whoever has the most convenient school building with the best security and lunch programs will win that battle.
| 79 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:59:54pm |
re: #76 political lunatic
Good article but I hate it when they start playing with the background image over there.
| 80 |
The Sanity Inspector Tue, Jan 5, 2010 12:59:59pm |
re: #52 Obdicut
I don’t agree with your parenthetical. You can prevent rational people from being aggressors by force. Rational people grow sick of war and death, leading to statements like “The most disadvantageous peace is better than the most just war.” and “There was never a good war or a bad peace.” I do feel that the military destruction visited upon Japan and Germany helped to defeat the foolish ideas of race-superiority that they had.
The problem with attacking Jihadi types with force is the whole martyrdom and oppression thing. they’re stylizing themselves as the underdog, the struggling one. They say they will eventually triumph, but they obviously aren’t, and yet they still acquire recruits. The recruits are not joining up for any rational reason of believing they will win due to the record of success the Jihad has had. […]
In their worldview, Jihad is a religiously meritorious act, succeed or fail. Let them go ahead and style themselves as the underdogs, so long as they are stopped. Maybe someday they’ll succumb to Salafi Burnout.
| 81 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:00:14pm |
re: #20 brookly red
one more reason I don’t trust polls…
But they brought us Polka music and Brats! /
| 82 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:01:24pm |
re: #79 Killgore Trout
Good article but I hate it when they start playing with the background image over there.
It’s called ad revenue. Background ads are highly valued.
| 83 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:02:10pm |
re: #69 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Killing frontline combatants and bombing somewhere with kids being indoctrinated are totally goddamn different from each other.
Should we kill pregnant women who say they’ll raise their children to hate and fear the US, too?
| 84 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:02:26pm |
re: #76 political lunatic
OT: Yes, I know it’s a diary on Daily Kos, but something about the wingnuts on the Texas Board of Education controlling the nation’s textbooks in public schools absolutely frightens me. If this continues, I’m afraid of this country becoming a theocracy in my lifetime thanks to brainwashed kids in public schools.
[Link: www.dailykos.com…]
What you are more likely to get is a war between those on the left who want to indoctrinate using method A and those on the right who want to indocrtinate using method B…
This is one of the reasons the original education system in the US was set up with local control.
| 85 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:03:25pm |
re: #84 DaddyG
What you are more likely to get is a war between those on the left who want to indoctrinate using method A and those on the right who want to indocrtinate using method B…
This is one of the reasons the original education system in the US was set up with local control.
What does the left want to indoctrinate your kids with through text books?
| 86 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:04:39pm |
re: #84 DaddyG
Given that the local control thing is what enables Texas to keep trying to push creationism, I’m not sure I understand your point. Could you clarify?
| 87 |
Clemente Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:04:44pm |
re: #3 vxbush
Hmmm. They are claiming a lack of resources to handle the voting process is the issue.
Perhaps a lack of resources to deliver the intended marketing content to visitors (from the weblogawards(dot)org site):
2009 Weblog Awards BlogAdsAdvertise here right now!
They do this to sell stuff - in this case, ad space on your browser. If that’s working, they’ll proceed. If not, they won’t. Quality polling is not the objective, though its perception is profitable. They will make darn sure you get every ad that anyone will pay them to deliver.
| 88 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:05:11pm |
re: #85 recusancy
What does the left want to indoctrinate your kids with through text books?
You didn’t grow up with the ecology film strips did you? Or a more recent example “My two Daddy’s”…
| 89 |
wrenchwench Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:05:54pm |
re: #76 political lunatic
OT: Yes, I know it’s a diary on Daily Kos, but something about the wingnuts on the Texas Board of Education controlling the nation’s textbooks in public schools absolutely frightens me. If this continues, I’m afraid of this country becoming a theocracy in my lifetime thanks to brainwashed kids in public schools.
[Link: www.dailykos.com…]
It’s been covered extensively here. And there was a brief comment by PZ Myers yesterday that relates.
| 90 |
Gus Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:06:28pm |
re: #83 Obdicut
Killing frontline combatants and bombing somewhere with kids being indoctrinated are totally goddamn different from each other.
Should we kill pregnant women who say they’ll raise their children to hate and fear the US, too?
I was thinking about that too. What if we go lower than 12-18 year olds. What if we present a scenario facility with 6-12 years old? Where would this end?
| 91 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:06:33pm |
re: #88 DaddyG
You didn’t grow up with the ecology film strips did you? Or a more recent example “My two Daddy’s”…
So reading about a kid with two daddy’s is indoctrination by the left?
I’m 28 so I’m not sure what ecology film strips you’re talking about.
| 92 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:07:12pm |
re: #76 political lunatic
OT: Yes, I know it’s a diary on Daily Kos, but something about the wingnuts on the Texas Board of Education controlling the nation’s textbooks in public schools absolutely frightens me. If this continues, I’m afraid of this country becoming a theocracy in my lifetime thanks to brainwashed kids in public schools.
[Link: www.dailykos.com…]
Texas as most if not all other states has their own standards (teks & tass IIRC) they can not control what is taught in other states.
| 93 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:07:27pm |
re: #88 DaddyG
You didn’t grow up with the ecology film strips did you? Or a more recent example “My two Daddy’s”…
Given the current state of our environment, we could have done with a few more ecology film strips.
And there are kids who have two fathers these days, legally.
| 94 |
blueraven Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:07:34pm |
re: #76 political lunatic
OT: Yes, I know it’s a diary on Daily Kos, but something about the wingnuts on the Texas Board of Education controlling the nation’s textbooks in public schools absolutely frightens me. If this continues, I’m afraid of this country becoming a theocracy in my lifetime thanks to brainwashed kids in public schools.
[Link: www.dailykos.com…]
It is already beginning here in Texas. A new law requires all Public High Schools to offer Bible classes. I am so thankful my youngest graduated last year. He also completed 12 years of catechism, as did my daughter. That is where religious education belongs; in church.
| 95 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:08:13pm |
re: #92 brookly red
Texas as most if not all other states has their own standards (teks & tass IIRC) they can not control what is taught in other states.
They do control what’s in the textbooks in other states because they’re such a huge state and textbook companies don’t want to make multiple versions of textbooks.
| 96 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:09:16pm |
re: #86 Obdicut
Given that the local control thing is what enables Texas to keep trying to push creationism, I’m not sure I understand your point. Could you clarify?
State is not local. The state should have the power to regulate basic curricula standards but not force creationism (definately out of bounds for a statewide curricula choice IMO) or any other specific subject on local schools.
The history of public education in the US had towns and counties supporting common schools. Because of abuses like segregation the states had to step in (a good solution to a bad situation). What we a reaping now is less community control and more wrestling over who gets to control the dialogue at a higher level. I don’t think that is necessarily healthy. For example there was a Hebrew school in NY that lost federal funding for their special ed programs because they taught a religious curricula but they were the only game in town that supported the disabled students from their community.
| 97 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:10:17pm |
re: #95 recusancy
They do control what’s in the textbooks in other states because they’re such a huge state and textbook companies don’t want to make multiple versions of textbooks.
but they have to anyway.
| 98 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:10:58pm |
re: #96 DaddyG
Okay. So even more local control— county and the town level— would lead to even more creationism being taught.
Do you not see that as a problem?
| 99 |
The Sanity Inspector Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:11:49pm |
OT: The stalkers are discovering Charles’ old music clips on YouTube. I urge everyone with a YT account to go and downding the slurs they’re spreading.
| 100 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:12:06pm |
re: #97 brookly red
but they have to anyway.
Have to what? Make multiple versions of the same book? No they don’t.
| 101 |
Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:13:54pm |
re: #96 DaddyG
Hey, Daddy G. Check out my latest blog update.
Took a while for the better half to figure it out, but I’m happy with it. Heh.
Just click my name.
| 102 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:14:27pm |
re: #96 DaddyG
For example there was a Hebrew school in NY that lost federal funding for their special ed programs because they taught a religious curricula but they were the only game in town that supported the disabled students from their community.
Kiryas Joel, IIRC.
| 103 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:14:31pm |
re: #100 recusancy
Have to what? Make multiple versions of the same book? No they don’t.
sí, de hecho hacen el & en langues múltiples también.
| 104 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:14:42pm |
re: #91 recusancy
So reading about a kid with two daddy’s is indoctrination by the left?
I’m 28 so I’m not sure what ecology film strips you’re talking about.
Yes- teaching alternative lifestyles is a left of center agenda item. Just as teaching children all families should have a mommy and daddy is a right of center agenda item. I wonder why this is a curricula item at all?! There isn’t enough time in the day to teach reading, writing, math, sciences, arts, physical education and basic government and civics.
The values based curricula should be handled at home outside of some very basic rudimentary ideas.
The ecology film strips I was referring to were a series of very over the top “the world is gonna end” if we don’t stop using paper and turn off the sink when you brush your teeth films I was treated to in the 70s. Just like the over the top don’t smoke or your lungs will turn into black goo scare based classes we got in health. In both cases the facts could have been shared a little better without the hyperbole and in fact studies showed the scare tactics were not effective in teaching because students tended to discount the more radical messages.
| 105 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:15:12pm |
re: #103 brookly red
sí, de hecho hacen el & en langues múltiples también.
That just requires translation. Not the author writing different information.
| 106 |
Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:16:24pm |
re: #105 recusancy
That just requires translation. Not the author writing different information.
“Just”….
| 107 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:16:49pm |
re: #98 Obdicut
Okay. So even more local control— county and the town level— would lead to even more creationism being taught.
Do you not see that as a problem?
I doubt the vast majority of districts would throw out the basic sciences. What you have now is a situation where a vocal minority are trying to force an issue state wide and they have been given the mechanism to do it precisely because locals were not trusted to make sound decisions.
| 108 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:17:14pm |
re: #105 recusancy
That just requires translation. Not the author writing different information.
most major text book series have 4 or 5 versions, true the bigger states get more input but multiple versions are standard ops.
| 109 |
political lunatic Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:17:15pm |
re: #94 blueraven
At least in my private high school, we had religion classes and church services on holy days, but I never really felt that it was forced on me. It was there only if you wanted it for the most part. It didn’t fit the profile. My science teachers thought that “intelligent” design was BS and we didn’t have abstinence only sex ed.
| 110 |
blueraven Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:17:52pm |
re: #103 brookly red
Someone posted this on another thread but it bears repeating. This is how TX controls text books.
[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com…]
| 112 |
HoosierHoops Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:18:26pm |
re: #99 The Sanity Inspector
OT: The stalkers are discovering Charles’ old music clips on YouTube. I urge everyone with a YT account to go and downding the slurs they’re spreading.
[Video]
What is there to say.. Charles is playing music with one of our generations greatest musicians..Are they jealous?
They can go fuck themselves and the political party they walked in with..
| 113 |
truth stick Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:19:25pm |
OT: but does this mean that this year they have a couple of ships down there chasing around the Japanese?
| 114 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:19:28pm |
re: #110 blueraven
Someone posted this on another thread but it bears repeating. This is how TX controls text books.
[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com…]
Pennsylvania also has their own standards, one size does not fit all.
| 115 |
Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:19:31pm |
re: #110 blueraven
Someone posted this on another thread but it bears repeating. This is how TX controls text books.
[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com…]
Dang. I had to stop after the first paragraph.
| 116 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:19:46pm |
re: #102 Alouette
That case went all the way to the US Supreme Court because of the way that the state and locality jury rigged the creation of the municipality.
| 117 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:20:53pm |
re: #107 DaddyG
I doubt the vast majority of districts would throw out the basic sciences. What you have now is a situation where a vocal minority are trying to force an issue state wide and they have been given the mechanism to do it precisely because locals were not trusted to make sound decisions.
When did I say the majority of districts would do that?
Why do you think the ‘vocal minority’ have enough power to force the issue at the state level but would not have enough power to simply make it happen locally, if things were even more decentralized?
| 118 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:21:32pm |
re: #101 Oh no…Sand People!
Hey, Daddy G. Check out my latest blog update.
Took a while for the better half to figure it out, but I’m happy with it. Heh.
Just click my name.
Very nice! Looks like my blue mini set that fell of the roof of my car in the Church parking lot more times than I can remember. I lvoe your imagery. I think you have some massive talent!
I like Elder too. It gave me a warm feeling about my son. We just got to talk to him in the 26th!
| 119 |
The Sanity Inspector Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:21:49pm |
re: #113 truth stick
OT: but does this mean that this year they have a couple of ships down there chasing around the Japanese?
Oh come now! The Japanese have said that they’re only catching whales for research. And I know what they’re researching. They’re researching to see if they taste as good this year as they did last year.
/
| 120 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:22:07pm |
re: #78 DaddyG
Fight indoctrination with indoctrination. Build a buttload of good schools where Mommy and Daddy can send the kidlets for an education and a few good squares - make the state responsible for installing moderate Muslim (and other) instructors. I suspect whoever has the most convenient school building with the best security and lunch programs will win that battle.
The Pakistanis have all but abdicated on that responsibility to educate their kids; they left it to the madrassas that were funded by the Islamists - Saudi Islamists, and are now reaping what was sown. Throw in the fact that the Pakistanis barely control what goes on in the frontier provinces and the mess is multiplied.
And whoever has the most bombs and guns will eventually win out - as seen by the way the Taliban have repeatedly shut down schools that attempt to teach girls, and have gone after teachers who try to educate kids in anything other than Sharia.
| 121 |
Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:22:28pm |
re: #118 DaddyG
Very nice! Looks like my blue mini set that fell of the roof of my car in the Church parking lot more times than I can remember. I lvoe your imagery. I think you have some massive talent!
I like Elder too. It gave me a warm feeling about my son. We just got to talk to him in the 26th!
Well, did you see what I was aiming at on the ‘Quad’ pic? Look closely right above the logo on the spine of the book. heh.
| 122 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:23:28pm |
re: #117 Obdicut
When did I say the majority of districts would do that?
Why do you think the ‘vocal minority’ have enough power to force the issue at the state level but would not have enough power to simply make it happen locally, if things were even more decentralized?
They could force it locally but they wouldn’t dictate to the entire state what specialized curricula everyone had to follow.
In short my answer to too much State or Federal control and the potential abuses of that power is not more State of Federal control of a different flavor. That is my big issue with both national parties right now. Sic Semper Tyrannis (metaphorically of course).
| 123 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:23:31pm |
re: #110 blueraven
“Evolution is hooey.” Now THAT’S what I call a scientific explanation. Don McLeroy…what a maroon!
| 124 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:24:51pm |
re: #104 DaddyG
Yes- teaching alternative lifestyles is a left of center agenda item. Just as teaching children all families should have a mommy and daddy is a right of center agenda item. I wonder why this is a curricula item at all?! There isn’t enough time in the day to teach reading, writing, math, sciences, arts, physical education and basic government and civics.
Just mentioning the fact that there ARE people who live “alternative” lifestyles is indoctrination? I didn’t know that reading one book about a kid with two daddy’s was an alternative-lifestyle-indoctrinating curriculum.
| 125 |
Gus Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:25:04pm |
re: #123 darthstar
“Evolution is hooey.” Now THAT’S what I call a scientific explanation. Don McLeroy…what a maroon!
“Values voter” science.
/
| 126 |
The Sanity Inspector Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:25:27pm |
re: #120 lawhawk
The Pakistanis have all but abdicated on that responsibility to educate their kids; they left it to the madrassas that were funded by the Islamists - Saudi Islamists, and are now reaping what was sown. Throw in the fact that the Pakistanis barely control what goes on in the frontier provinces and the mess is multiplied.
And whoever has the most bombs and guns will eventually win out - as seen by the way the Taliban have repeatedly shut down schools that attempt to teach girls, and have gone after teachers who try to educate kids in anything other than Sharia.
Well said. It’s been said that when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. But it’s also been said in regards to the WOT and dissenters therefrom that, when you forswear the use of hammers, you don’t want any problem to look like a nail.
…”moderate Taliban”, *spit!*
| 127 |
political lunatic Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:25:28pm |
re: #119 The Sanity Inspector
Really? I thought they were hunting whales because they think they dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima in WWII and want revenge. /
| 128 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:25:50pm |
re: #123 darthstar
“Evolution is hooey.” Now THAT’S what I call a scientific explanation. Don McLeroy…what a maroon!
A duck, like Hooey (and Dooey and Looey), would have to evolve to be able to talk and stuff.
| 129 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:25:51pm |
re: #120 lawhawk
Many kids in Pakistani schools speak better English than American kids. Pakistan isn’t Afghanistan…yet. And it’s possible to prevent it from becoming one (without stereotyping them as a backward muslim nation)
| 130 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:26:49pm |
re: #121 Oh no…Sand People!
Well, did you see what I was aiming at on the ‘Quad’ pic? Look closely right above the logo on the spine of the book. heh.
Heh. nice one- snuck that right by me.
| 131 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:27:33pm |
re: #127 political lunatic
Really? I thought they were hunting whales because they think they dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima in WWII and want revenge. /
Ha! I remember the “Nuke the Gay Whales” bumperstickers. Of course, the irony of that sticker was missed by the folks it was mocking.
| 132 |
Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:28:05pm |
re: #130 DaddyG
Heh. nice one- snuck that right by me.
Yeah. I am getting right excited where this thing is going.
Hope you had a great new year. I gotta jet for a bit.
Take care all.
| 133 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:28:45pm |
re: #122 DaddyG
I really can’t understand your argument at all. The problem is that a vocal minority wants to teach kids something anti-science and ridiculous to kids in school. In some states, they have enough numbers to influence the state curriculum. At the local level in many places, they’d have total dominance, it wouldn’t just be influence. And there are plenty, plenty of communities that would prefer to teach creationism— and any number of other false things.
Why would you prefer giving more control to the local areas, since it would lead to more creationism being taught? Why would you look at creationists trying to get their agenda across in the state and conclude the structure was the problem? Changing the structure wouldn’t make the creationists go away.
| 134 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:30:10pm |
re: #127 political lunatic
Really? I thought they were hunting whales because they think they dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima in WWII and want revenge. /
Fuck you dorphin!
Fuck you whare!
| 135 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:31:26pm |
re: #124 recusancy
Just mentioning the fact that there ARE people who live “alternative” lifestyles is indoctrination? I didn’t know that reading one book about a kid with two daddy’s was an alternative-lifestyle-indoctrinating curriculum.
It is as much indoctrination as the passing references to Christ in the McGuffy Readers. That is one of the reasons why those were phased out of schools.
I’m not arguing against portrayals of all kinds in curricula but a book and curricula segment devoted to alternative family arrangements is indoctrination just as much as a segment on two parent heterosexual families would be indoctrination.
Don’t replace one flavor of indoctrination with another flavor and tell me its better. Leave the values education at home and teach basic government (including representative democracy) and sciences (including evolution) in the schools.
I think the article linked above where you have a creationist proof texting the curricula is disgusting and has no place in the education system. That doesn’t mean the left is immune to wanting to control the dialogue. When it comes to teaching youngsters some topics are best left to local teachers and parents not some policy wonk at the State or Federal level.
| 136 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:32:17pm |
re: #129 darthstar
There are remnants of the British education system in places like Karachi and Lahore and even in Islamabad, but those have been overwhelmed by the madrassa system. The education system there is a mess. So, while efforts to bring in new schools that aren’t part of a madrassa system are in the offing, but offer only a few hundred new schools compared to the more than 20,000 madrassas.
| 137 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:32:44pm |
re: #135 DaddyG
How is having a story about two gay men who are the legal parents of a child the same thing as endorsing a religion?
| 138 |
truth stick Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:32:48pm |
Bob Barker is always wanting us to spay and neuter our animals to control their numbers, so the Japanese are just following Bob’s wishes and making sure that the number of whales doesn’t get to high
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
| 139 |
Kewalo Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:33:29pm |
re: #99 The Sanity Inspector
Done, and the music is great too! Good work Charles.
| 140 |
Jack Burton Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:34:44pm |
re: #138 truth stick
Bob Barker is always wanting us to spay and neuter our animals to control their numbers, so the Japanese are just following Bob’s wishes and making sure that the number of whales doesn’t get to high
///
I don’t remember when Bob Barker said “This is Bob Barker reminding you to help control the pet population. Have your pets murdered or slayed.”
/
| 141 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:35:12pm |
re: #133 Obdicut
I really can’t understand your argument at all. The problem is that a vocal minority wants to teach kids something anti-science and ridiculous to kids in school. In some states, they have enough numbers to influence the state curriculum. At the local level in many places, they’d have total dominance, it wouldn’t just be influence. And there are plenty, plenty of communities that would prefer to teach creationism— and any number of other false things.
Why would you prefer giving more control to the local areas, since it would lead to more creationism being taught? Why would you look at creationists trying to get their agenda across in the state and conclude the structure was the problem? Changing the structure wouldn’t make the creationists go away.
I don’t think local control would lead to more creationism being taught. Especially if the State mandated basic math, science, reading and other achievement scores. I’m not talking about doing away with State standards or teacher education standards. What the community decided to do beyond that to supplement their children’s education is up to them.
Also, it is a lot easier to run for the board, move to a private school or a neighboring district than it is to a different state if the local disctict isn’t to your liking. I’m advocating more parental control not less.
| 142 |
political lunatic Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:35:35pm |
re: #135 DaddyG
Don’t replace one flavor of indoctrination with another flavor and tell me its better.
So, you’re saying that we should leave kids without an education in history or civil rights? When you find a way to teach history that doesn’t involve some kind of indoctrination, get back to me.
| 143 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:36:51pm |
re: #135 DaddyG
It is as much indoctrination as the passing references to Christ in the McGuffy Readers. That is one of the reasons why those were phased out of schools.
I’m not arguing against portrayals of all kinds in curricula but a book and curricula segment devoted to alternative family arrangements is indoctrination just as much as a segment on two parent heterosexual families would be indoctrination.
Don’t replace one flavor of indoctrination with another flavor and tell me its better. Leave the values education at home and teach basic government (including representative democracy) and sciences (including evolution) in the schools.
I think the article linked above where you have a creationist proof texting the curricula is disgusting and has no place in the education system. That doesn’t mean the left is immune to wanting to control the dialogue. When it comes to teaching youngsters some topics are best left to local teachers and parents not some policy wonk at the State or Federal level.
Do you think teaching civil rights is leftist indoctrination?
| 144 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:37:11pm |
re: #137 Obdicut
How is having a story about two gay men who are the legal parents of a child the same thing as endorsing a religion?
Creationsim is not a religion any more than celebrating sexual diversity is a religion. These are value decisions and agree with them or not they are best taught somewhere besides the 4th grade classroom.
| 145 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:39:44pm |
re: #144 DaddyG
Creationsim is not a religion any more than celebrating sexual diversity is a religion. These are value decisions and agree with them or not they are best taught somewhere besides the 4th grade classroom.
First, creationism is religion.
Second, reading a childrens book where a kid has two daddy’s is not “celebrating sexual diversity”.
| 147 |
Four More Tears Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:40:31pm |
re: #144 DaddyG
Creationsim is not a religion any more than celebrating sexual diversity is a religion. These are value decisions and agree with them or not they are best taught somewhere besides the 4th grade classroom.
Bullshit. Creationism is religious by its very definition.
| 148 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:42:36pm |
re: #143 recusancy
Do you think teaching civil rights is leftist indoctrination?
No. It is a matter of degrees.
Teaching all men are created equal and that justice means blacks, whites, gays, muslims, and greed eyed lithuanian fishermen have the same basic human and constitutional rights is not an unreasonable level indoctrination.
A textbook and curricula segment soley devoted to celebrating heterosexual or homosexual marriage would cross the line IMO.
A textbook and curricula segment devoted to racial superiority of any time crosses the line (and they do exist in all colors)
I’m not just talking about passing references here I’m talking about dedicated curricula just like they are trying to get in Texas with the creationism issue. AFAIC as long as there is acceptance of “your mileage (personal beliefss) may differ but were sticking to the basics in class” then that should suffice.
| 149 |
Soap_Man Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:45:10pm |
re: #148 DaddyG
A textbook and curricula segment soley devoted to celebrating heterosexual or homosexual marriage would cross the line IMO.
Not to pile on, but there is a difference between “celebrating” and “recognizing.”
| 150 |
Bagua Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:45:30pm |
re: #13 lawhawk
OT:
Here’s an ethics question. Would an airstrike against a facility such as the one indicated in this story be justified, even if many of those killed turn out to be kids under 18 when the purpose of said facility is to indoctrinate and brainwash those kids to be suicide bombers and terrorists?
My first thought is to curse the enemy that is responsible for this insanity.
As to the question “would an airstrike against the facility be justified” I would say yes, as long as the facility was empty of children at the time of the air-strike. If this was not possible, then the military action must be a targeted killing of the instructors or a ground operation. No civilised country is going to intentionally target and kill children because they may being indoctrinated.
The Israelis are very effective in using targeted killings which kill the intended targets and no one else. They are facing an enemy every bit as brutal and savage as the Taliban.
| 151 |
Political Atheist Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:49:39pm |
re: #13 lawhawk
An easy one!
Assuming those Jack Bauer 24 scenarios are BS-No. Like waterboarding this nation must not fight like that. If you have enough information to airstrike it, you have enough to work up another option.
| 152 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:52:24pm |
re: #145 recusancy
First, creationism is religion.
Second, reading a childrens book where a kid has two daddy’s is not “celebrating sexual diversity”.
Thre: #147 JasonA
Bullshit. Creationism is religious by its very definition.
Here is where we disagree. I said creationsim isnt a religion. (Go find me the first Church of the Creationists and I will stand corrected).
There is nothing wrong with celebrating/recognizing diversity of any kind but that is a values issue. You are confusing religion with values in this case- creationism and heterosexuality is certainly pushed by some religions, Evangelical and Baptist to be specific but it does not make it a religion.
Values based curricula can be too heavy handed and the state cannot effectively replace mommy and daddy (or daddy and daddy) at teaching values. Trying to replace the family as a primary values source is always going to be a sticky wicket.
My basic point is that the State and Feds are too blunt an instrument to get into those types of curricula decisions. Any state that feels it is their job to dictate to local communities and families borders on dictatorial no matter what flavor of curricula or agenda they are driving.
You will have a lot more power as an individual with local representation. If another community decides to go to hell in a handbasket accordin to you then that is their issue. But as long as the State stays where they should in enforcing the teaching of basic academics it won’t become a statewide political football.
| 153 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 1:53:32pm |
re: #149 Soap_Man
Not to pile on, but there is a difference between “celebrating” and “recognizing.”
I know. I’ve been told by colleagues doing diversity work that tolerating and recognizing isn’t enough and that we should always celebrate diversity. Don’t hammer me for being PC.
| 154 |
Gus Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:01:10pm |
re: #152 DaddyG
Here is where we disagree. I said creationsim isnt a religion. (Go find me the first Church of the Creationists and I will stand corrected)
Answers in Genesis
Creation Ministries International
Institute for Creation Research
Young Earth Creationists
Living Water - Ray Comfort
Answers in Genesis (AiG) is a non-profit Christian apologetics ministry with a particular focus on Young Earth creationism and a literal interpretation of the Book of Genesis.[ The organization has offices in the United Kingdom and the United States. It had offices in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa, but in 2006 these split off to form Creation Ministries International.
| 155 |
Gus Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:02:55pm |
re: #154 Gus 802
Creation Science Evangelism began in 1989 from a desire to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the science of God’s creation. Today, Creation Science Evangelism has some of the most requested speakers on the topics of creation, evolution, and dinosaurs. With over three decades of research in the sciences, Creation Science Evangelism has become a trusted source for information pertaining to the creation vs. evolution controversy.
| 156 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:04:00pm |
re: #152 DaddyG
Go find me the first Church of the Creationists and I will stand corrected
re: #154 Gus 802
Answers in Genesis (AiG) is a non-profit Christian apologetics ministry with a particular focus on Young Earth creationism and a literal interpretation of the Book of Genesis.[ The organization has offices in the United Kingdom and the United States. It had offices in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa, but in 2006 these split off to form Creation Ministries International.
We’ll damn! I stand corrected. If these are the people trying to dictate the Texas curricula then they should be laughed out of the boardroom on the basis of separation of Church and State alone.
| 157 |
Gus Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:04:06pm |
re: #155 Gus 802
Creation Ministries International (CMI) is a non-profit young Earth creationist organisation of autonomous Christian apologetics ministries that promote a literal interpretation the of Book of Genesis. The autonomous ministries are located in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, the United Kingdom and the United States
| 159 |
Four More Tears Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:05:48pm |
re: #156 DaddyG
We’ll damn! I stand corrected. If these are the people trying to dictate the Texas curricula then they should be laughed out of the boardroom on the basis of separation of Church and State alone.
On this we agree. The problem is that they aren’t.
| 160 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:06:06pm |
re: #156 DaddyG
We’ll damn! I stand corrected. If these are the people trying to dictate the Texas curricula then they should be laughed out of the boardroom on the basis of separation of Church and State alone.
I knew they were organized; but this level of organization is surprising! I suppose it shouldn’t be. But it is.
| 161 |
Gus Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:06:42pm |
re: #156 DaddyG
We’ll damn! I stand corrected. If these are the people trying to dictate the Texas curricula then they should be laughed out of the boardroom on the basis of separation of Church and State alone.
They try to “laugh them out” but it’s typically a complicated process as you know. McLeroy was just one of many creationists on the Texas board.
| 162 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:07:47pm |
re: #160 reine.de.tout
I knew they were organized; but this level of organization is surprising! I suppose it shouldn’t be. But it is.
I plead Naivete. :-)
My basic premise still stands. The ideologically driven of all stripes should be left out of State and Federal curricula decisions. If any territory should be considered neutral territory the teaching of children and youth is it.
| 163 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:08:17pm |
teaching gay sex ed oughta be a riot in jr high school, or wherever they teach it…facsinating, considering the ignorance level of American students in languages, science and civics
| 165 |
SixDegrees Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:09:12pm |
re: #158 DaddyG
Appearantly Creationism is many religions.
To be specific, “creationism” is a religious doctrine. It is not, itself, a religion. Similarly, the Catholic belief in the Virgin Birth is a doctrine of the Catholic religion, but is not a religion unto itself.
[pedant mode off]
| 166 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:09:49pm |
re: #165 SixDegrees
To be specific, “creationism” is a religious doctrine. It is not, itself, a religion. Similarly, the Catholic belief in the Virgin Birth is a doctrine of the Catholic religion, but is not a religion unto itself.
[pedant mode off]
Yeah. What you said. ;-)
| 167 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:10:44pm |
re: #162 DaddyG
I plead Naivete. :-)
My basic premise still stands. The ideologically driven of all stripes should be left out of State and Federal curricula decisions. If any territory should be considered neutral territory the teaching of children and youth is it.
And I agree 100%
| 168 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:11:32pm |
re: #167 reine.de.tout
And I agree 100%
How can I not upding that wonderful statement of validation!
| 169 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:11:44pm |
re: #162 DaddyG
I plead Naivete. :-)
My basic premise still stands. The ideologically driven of all stripes should be left out of State and Federal curricula decisions. If any territory should be considered neutral territory the teaching of children and youth is it.
And yet it is the least likely to be considered neutral.
| 170 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:12:04pm |
It got quiet in here. Should I bring up global warming and abortion? /
| 171 |
Four More Tears Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:12:55pm |
My rule of thumb: if an atheist cannot accept it then it shouldn’t be taught in schools. Let me know if I’m wrong. My mind is wide open right now.
| 172 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:13:27pm |
It is quiet.
So - I just got this in an e-mail from a friend and I like it so I shall share it with all of you:
After serious & cautious consideration… your contract of friendship has been renewed for the New Year 2010
It was a very hard decision to make… So try not to mess it up!
My Wishes for You in 2010
May peace break into your home and may thieves come to steal your debts.
May the pockets of your jeans become a magnet for $100 bills.
May love stick to your face like Vaseline and may laughter assault your lips!
May happiness slap you across the face and may your tears be those of joy
May the problems you had forget your home address!
In simple words …………
May 2010 be the best year of your life!!!
| 173 |
Four More Tears Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:14:02pm |
re: #171 JasonA
My rule of thumb: if an atheist cannot accept it then it shouldn’t be taught in schools. Let me know if I’m wrong. My mind is wide open right now.
Er, public schools, of course.
| 174 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:14:43pm |
re: #171 JasonA
My rule of thumb: if an atheist cannot accept it then it shouldn’t be taught in schools. Let me know if I’m wrong. My mind is wide open right now.
OK - let’s turn that around.
If a religious person cannot accept it, then it shouldn’t be taught in schools.
nah.
Better just to look to the constitutional separation, and work these things out.
| 175 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:15:06pm |
are STDs taught in sex ed classes as the result of sexual activity?
| 176 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:15:17pm |
re: #144 DaddyG
Creationism is not a ‘value’. It is just something that’s scientifically wrong. And it is religious, if not a religion.
Two gay men being parents is also something that’s factually true. And legally allowed, in those states that have pulled their heads out of their asses.
| 177 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:15:38pm |
re: #169 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And yet it is the least likely to be considered neutral.
As a former educator and a current parent that really ticks me off. Our administration seems to spend so much time covering their butts from potentail lawsuits and trying to get high scores on standardized tests that the children’s education is a secondary concern. Worse yet the district board posts are seen as a stepping stone to Statewide office so they are heavily politicized.
Back when I was a kid it was mostly parents who served on the school board and they were more concerned with how we could get enough copies of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory for the library and how we could raise funds for new band instruments. That is what the adults should be concerned with.
| 178 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:15:54pm |
re: #175 albusteve
are STDs taught in sex ed classes as the result of sexual activity?
They were taught about STDs at my daughter’s school.
| 179 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:16:35pm |
re: #172 reine.de.tout
That’s great!
I just sent it to two friends who are having tough times!
| 180 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:16:44pm |
re: #178 reine.de.tout
They were taught about STDs at my daughter’s school.
And you were probably given the option to have her not attend correct?
| 181 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:16:59pm |
re: #178 reine.de.tout
They were taught about STDs at my daughter’s school.
so are students then taught about the practice of abortion as the result of sexual activity, I wonder?
| 182 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:17:02pm |
re: #179 Floral Giraffe
That’s great!
I just sent it to two friends who are having tough times!
It made my day to open that and see it!
Glad you can brighten someone’s day with it.
| 183 |
Four More Tears Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:17:24pm |
re: #174 reine.de.tout
OK - let’s turn that around.
If a religious person cannot accept it, then it shouldn’t be taught in schools.nah.
Better just to look to the constitutional separation, and work these things out.
Okay. For the record I’m talking about the presentation of information, not advocacy. Maybe better to just say “secularist.”
| 184 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:17:28pm |
re: #170 DaddyG
It got quiet in here. Should I bring up global warming and abortion? /
Lets go for some real controversy.
Stuffing or potatoes?
| 185 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:18:04pm |
re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Lets go for some real controversy.
Stuffing or potatoes?
with what?
| 186 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:18:06pm |
re: #180 recusancy
And you were probably given the option to have her not attend correct?
Yep. But sent her anyway.
I remember wondering and talking about this stuff when I was a kid. Much better for her to get it from a teacher or from me than from hearing other kids talk about it at recess. Talk about confusion!!
| 187 |
Jack Burton Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:18:11pm |
re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Lets go for some real controversy.
Stuffing or potatoes?
Is both the “centrist” position in that one?
| 188 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:18:26pm |
re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Lets go for some real controversy.
Stuffing or potatoes?
or the never ending dispute…
red or green?
| 189 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:18:33pm |
re: #183 JasonA
Okay. For the record I’m talking about the presentation of information, not advocacy. Maybe better to just say “secularist.”
“secularist” might be a better choice
| 190 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:18:41pm |
re: #172 reine.de.tout
It is quiet.
So - I just got this in an e-mail from a friend and I like it so I shall share it with all of you:
After serious & cautious consideration… your contract of friendship has been renewed for the New Year 2010
It was a very hard decision to make… So try not to mess it up!
My Wishes for You in 2010
May peace break into your home and may thieves come to steal your debts.
May the pockets of your jeans become a magnet for $100 bills.
May love stick to your face like Vaseline and may laughter assault your lips!
May happiness slap you across the face and may your tears be those of joy
May the problems you had forget your home address!
In simple words …May 2010 be the best year of your life!!!…until 2011
FTFY
| 192 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:18:50pm |
re: #187 ArchangelMichael
Is both the “centrist” position in that one?
no that would be stuffed potatoes
| 193 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:18:55pm |
re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Lets go for some real controversy.
Stuffing or potatoes?
You left out rice for some reason?
| 194 |
HoosierHoops Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:19:05pm |
re: #178 reine.de.tout
They were taught about STDs at my daughter’s school.
I found out in High School that Sex education didn’t really mean what I thought it meant…What a rip off…
| 195 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:19:37pm |
re: #133 Obdicut
……
Why would you prefer giving more control to the local areas, since it would lead to more creationism being taught? …….
“local areas” are where education decisions are supposed to be made, not DC. Local schools paid for by local taxes filling local needs, etc.., etc.., etc.. Don’t like what kind of students your neighborhood schools are putting out? Then get involved, locally. (I can go on for another couple of sentences and add “LOCALLY” at least a dozen more times but I think you already get my point.)
| 196 |
wrenchwench Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:19:50pm |
re: #187 ArchangelMichael
Is both the “centrist” position in that one?
It would certainly give you a big middle.
| 197 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:20:07pm |
re: #181 albusteve
so are students then taught about the practice of abortion as the result of sexual activity, I wonder?
Yes, students are taught about abortion.
Of course, since my daughter attended Catholic school, the abortion discussions were from a Catholic standpoint.
| 198 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:20:12pm |
re: #193 reine.de.tout
You left out rice for some reason?
THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO BRINGS UP THE RICE QUESTION!
RICIST!
| 199 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:20:16pm |
| 200 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:21:08pm |
re: #198 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO BRINGS UP THE RICE QUESTION!
RICIST!
heheheh!
I like rice with gravy.
Or gumbo.
Or etouffee.
Or sushi.
| 201 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:21:23pm |
re: #171 JasonA
My rule of thumb: if an atheist cannot accept it then it shouldn’t be taught in schools. Let me know if I’m wrong. My mind is wide open right now.
Sounds like a dangerous litmus test. There are some pretty dogmatic atheists out there who are just as agenda driven as the socon next door. In the case of schools a community standard (If a Christian, Muslim, Athiest and green eyed gay Lithuanian fisherman can tolerate it then it is probably ok…) that does not discriminate against a paricular group should apply. That isn’t a cut and dried definition and the debate will go on- but that is the whole point. I’d hate to trade one type of dictatorship for another.
Ironically it was a Mormon girl who sued her school district over public prayer at football games because the prayers were bing used as a judgemental public denegrating of other religions. Being a member of a minority religion has really taught me the way of being ok with the community standard and still teaching my kids how they are unique without having to dictate the standard according to my particular beliefs.
| 202 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:22:05pm |
Chris matthews big question to Steele (on now) is “why didn’t you write about Palin”.
| 203 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:22:15pm |
re: #200 reine.de.tout
heheheh!
I like rice with gravy.
Or gumbo.
Or etouffee.
Or sushi.
Rice is a strawman. The question was stuffing or potatoes.
| 204 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:22:42pm |
re: #178 reine.de.tout
They were taught about STDs at my daughter’s school.
I would not want to teach sex ed in school at all- especially Jr. High. We had lots of follow up discussions at home to reinforce our own values. I was very happy to hear my kids say Duh! Dad we already talk about this stuff, nothing they told me was new.
| 205 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:23:15pm |
re: #194 HoosierHoops
I found out in High School that Sex education didn’t really mean what I thought it meant…What a rip off…
| 206 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:23:25pm |
re: #203 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Rice is a strawman. The question was stuffing or potatoes.
Oh, noes!
The STRAWMAN!
| 207 |
Four More Tears Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:23:32pm |
re: #197 reine.de.tout
Yes, students are taught about abortion.
Of course, since my daughter attended Catholic school, the abortion discussions were from a Catholic standpoint.
Heh. I remember that standpoint from my Catholic school days. Sister Anne pulled no punches.
| 208 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:23:39pm |
re: #203 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Rice is a strawman. The question was stuffing or potatoes.
fugetaboutit… were having ziti. do you have a problem with that?
| 209 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:24:43pm |
re: #204 DaddyG
I would not want to teach sex ed in school at all- especially Jr. High. We had lots of follow up discussions at home to reinforce our own values. I was very happy to hear my kids say Duh! Dad we already talk about this stuff, nothing they told me was new.
Yeah -
One of the hospitals here has a series of classes for young teens, on their bodies, sex, sexuality, the opposite sex - intended for teens to attend with their parents. I took my daughter to that class. We laughed so hard all the way home!
| 210 |
Kragar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:25:31pm |
re: #208 brookly red
fugetaboutit… were having ziti. do you have a problem with that?
Is that ziti with stuffing or ziti with potatoes?
| 211 |
SixDegrees Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:25:51pm |
re: #171 JasonA
My rule of thumb: if an atheist cannot accept it then it shouldn’t be taught in schools. Let me know if I’m wrong. My mind is wide open right now.
Depends what you mean, exactly. For example, I don’t have a problem teaching a comparative religions class in high schools; in fact, I think it’s a shame we don’t, since it’s all but impossible to understand the world we live in - the world of the Enlightened West - without some foundational knowledge of the role religions played in shaping that world.
On a less controversial note, I also strongly support teaching art history, and again, when we’re talking about the West, enormous swaths of art history are, in fact, enormous swaths of religious history, as the Church and various monarchies strongly tied to the Church sponsored most of the art for millennia, and as a result religious themes abound. The absence of representational art from Jewish and Islamic cultures is also a result of religious influence.
So you can’t really keep this sort of knowledge out of the public schools, and overwrought attempts to do so result in a severely distorted and inadequate education. And there are probably atheists who wouldn’t care to see such topics brought up.
My solution is a bit simpler and more draconian: keep religion out of topics where it has no place. Like science. And let the choices be guided by organizations with expertise in the fields in question - in this case, organizations like the National Academy of Sciences, the American Academy for the Advancement of Science, and many others. We don’t go to the athletic department when designing the English curriculum; we leave it to the experts in the particular field in question.
| 212 |
S.D. Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:25:59pm |
I was so looking forward to taking a bubble bath in the flood of hatred and vitriol directed against yours truly that was certain to ensue. Oh well.
Hey, We can direct Vitriol at you to make up for it….
;)
| 213 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:26:29pm |
I have no clue…so in what sort of class are students taught about ‘alternative’ parent combinations and wouldn’t it follow that they would teach gay sex ed in tandem
| 214 |
Four More Tears Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:26:56pm |
re: #201 DaddyG
I see what you’re saying but I’m not sure that protects children from being taught creationism.
| 215 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:27:01pm |
re: #210 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Is that ziti with stuffing or ziti with potatoes?
hmmm, stuffed ziti
| 216 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:27:32pm |
re: #209 reine.de.tout
Yeah -
One of the hospitals here has a series of classes for young teens, on their bodies, sex, sexuality, the opposite sex - intended for teens to attend with their parents. I took my daughter to that class. We laughed so hard all the way home!
It is really difficult to get detailed and specific enough to be meaningful in a mixed class (gender, background, etc.) I made too many mistakes as a young man with relationships and sexuality because no one bothered to be down and dirty in discussions.
| 217 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:27:33pm |
re: #203 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Rice is a strawman. The question was stuffing or potatoes.
The big strawman question is what what The Strawman stuffed with!?!?!
Sure ,,, we can see straw sticking out of his shirt, a little out of the hat ,,but do we really know!?!?!?!
And don’t give me about the time the Flying Monkeys ripped him apart. All that straw could have already been there. It was a field, btw!
OR ,,, photoshopped!
| 218 |
freetoken Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:27:49pm |
On topic… given that the best “science” blog was voted in the past to be WUWT, I for one rejoice over the demise of “best of blog” type of awards.
Put simply, popularity is not a measure of quality.
| 219 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:28:05pm |
is gay sex ed taught in schools?…if not, why not?…gotta split
| 220 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:28:07pm |
re: #213 albusteve
I have no clue…so in what sort of class are students taught about ‘alternative’ parent combinations and wouldn’t it follow that they would teach gay sex ed in tandem
Albusteve - they do teach about homosexuality and gay sex. It’s covered. Or it was in my daughter’s class, anyhow. Again, from the Catholic viewpoint that sex outside of marriage is wrong; but the mere fact of being homosexual is NOT.
| 221 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:28:33pm |
re: #217 sattv4u2
The big strawman question is what what The Strawman stuffed with!?!?!
Sure ,,, we can see straw sticking out of his shirt, a little out of the hat ,,but do we really know!?!?!?!
And don’t give me about the time the Flying Monkeys ripped him apart. All that straw could have already been there. It was a field, btw!
OR ,,, photoshopped!
I blame Bush.
| 222 |
Girth Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:28:36pm |
Just flipped Beck on for a min.
He’s got ACORN, Obama, and Che Guevara on the blackboard.
/flip
| 223 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:29:10pm |
re: #218 freetoken
Put simply, popularity is not a measure of quality.
Your mom was just being supportive when she told you that.///
| 224 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:29:15pm |
| 225 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:29:19pm |
re: #195 RogueOne
I get your point. I don’t get why you think your point is a good one. If you are one of the minority of atheists in a very highly religious town that wants to teach creationism, what are your options if you give strong curricular control to the local government?
| 226 |
wrenchwench Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:29:26pm |
re: #204 DaddyG
I would not want to teach sex ed in school at all- especially Jr. High. We had lots of follow up discussions at home to reinforce our own values. I was very happy to hear my kids say Duh! Dad we already talk about this stuff, nothing they told me was new.
I was in 6th grade in 1968 (or so) and we had a male teacher, which was very unusual in elementary school back then. He decided to be the first teacher anywhere to teach sex education in a public school. I didn’t learn anything, and not because I knew anything. He stammered and sweated more than he spoke. I remember only being thoroughly amused at his discomfort, and that he drew a chicken on the blackboard.
| 227 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:29:42pm |
re: #216 DaddyG
It is really difficult to get detailed and specific enough to be meaningful in a mixed class (gender, background, etc.) I made too many mistakes as a young man with relationships and sexuality because no one bothered to be down and dirty in discussions.
I wasn’t clear - this class was all girls. They had a separate class for boys, but those were the topics covered.
I will say I enjoyed taking the class with her, being able to answer her questions on the way home, leading to much hilarity for both of us, acrtually! Broke the ice, so to speak. She’s never been shy about talking to me about things.
| 228 |
Bagua Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:29:43pm |
re: #219 albusteve
is gay sex ed taught in schools?…if not, why not?…gotta split
I think the real education just happens naturally. This is true for all sorts of sex, always has been.
| 229 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:30:26pm |
re: #214 JasonA
I see what you’re saying but I’m not sure that protects children from being taught creationism.
It doesn’t protect them from being taught anything good or bad. It protects large groups of them from being dictated too by agenda driven minorities. That is the trade off of freedom in a representative system.
Other than broad standards the local community and parents must protect their children and teach them well. In the end and the state can only do a worse job of it from a distance.
| 230 |
brookly red Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:31:01pm |
re: #218 freetoken
On topic… given that the best “science” blog was voted in the past to be WUWT, I for one rejoice over the demise of “best of blog” type of awards.
Put simply, popularity is not a measure of quality.
eleitist!
| 231 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:31:17pm |
re: #225 Obdicut
I don’t get why you think your point is a good one
Just a guess, but most likely why we all think OUR point is a good one!!
| 232 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:31:39pm |
re: #222 Girth
Just flipped Beck on for a min.
He’s got ACORN, Obama, and Che Guevara on the blackboard.
/flip
Please tell me he was doing a DIY segment on how to decorate a Democratic campaign workers office. /
| 233 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:32:00pm |
re: #211 SixDegrees
I taught creation mythology in public high school (part of the Freshman IB English curriculum). As a matter of course, a discussion of Genesis ensued (brought up by those bright kids, no less). We looked at Genesis in relation to the other creation myths—similarities, differences, etc. It was a very rewarding lesson for teacher and student alike.
Later in the year, when one student asked why Easter moved around and Christmas didn’t, I simply said, “You tell me.” Two days later, she came back and gave a full explanation of Easter, the pagan gods associated with it, and the fact that it falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox. You gotta love giving kids the power to educate themselves sometimes.
| 234 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:32:34pm |
re: #225 Obdicut
Don’t move to a town and have kids before you know what the schools are like? I was raised by a single mom and I ended up in 8 different schools in 9 years and my mother always looked at the school district before moving, like we were going to stay or something.//
I don’t think the feds should have zero involvement but I think it’s the locals that have to fund the vast majority of the system and then deal with the results. It should be up to them to decide the curriculum.
| 235 |
Four More Tears Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:32:52pm |
re: #211 SixDegrees
Oh no no no. I never meant to give the impression that religion could be ignored like that. I can’t think of a better example than creationism to illustrate what I think has no place in a classroom unless you’re context is historical rather than scientific.
Depends what you mean, exactly. For example, I don’t have a problem teaching a comparative religions class in high schools; in fact, I think it’s a shame we don’t, since it’s all but impossible to understand the world we live in - the world of the Enlightened West - without some foundational knowledge of the role religions played in shaping that world.
On a less controversial note, I also strongly support teaching art history, and again, when we’re talking about the West, enormous swaths of art history are, in fact, enormous swaths of religious history, as the Church and various monarchies strongly tied to the Church sponsored most of the art for millennia, and as a result religious themes abound. The absence of representational art from Jewish and Islamic cultures is also a result of religious influence.
So you can’t really keep this sort of knowledge out of the public schools, and overwrought attempts to do so result in a severely distorted and inadequate education. And there are probably atheists who wouldn’t care to see such topics brought up.
My solution is a bit simpler and more draconian: keep religion out of topics where it has no place. Like science. And let the choices be guided by organizations with expertise in the fields in question - in this case, organizations like the National Academy of Sciences, the American Academy for the Advancement of Science, and many others. We don’t go to the athletic department when designing the English curriculum; we leave it to the experts in the particular field in question.
| 236 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:33:18pm |
re: #233 darthstar
I taught creation mythology in public high school (part of the Freshman IB English curriculum). As a matter of course, a discussion of Genesis ensued (brought up by those bright kids, no less). We looked at Genesis in relation to the other creation myths—similarities, differences, etc. It was a very rewarding lesson for teacher and student alike.
Later in the year, when one student asked why Easter moved around and Christmas didn’t, I simply said, “You tell me.” Two days later, she came back and gave a full explanation of Easter, the pagan gods associated with it, and the fact that it falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox. You gotta love giving kids the power to educate themselves sometimes.
Sounds like you were a good teacher.
And, if this creation topic is to be taught, teaching it in this way, in an English class, or philosophy class, with various creation stories presented, is the way to do it.
| 237 |
avanti Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:33:34pm |
re: #49 Ben Hur
That’s right I forgot.
Suddenly terrorism exists and we’re not at war.
War takes place between nations, we know where the enemy is, and who’s sponsoring them. A terrorist can be a individual that has a problem with our any perceived government policy. They can be citizens of the US or any country, and thus not a traditional war. We can’t “win” and sign a peace treaty with terrorists.
| 238 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:33:34pm |
re: #219 albusteve
is gay sex ed taught in schools?…if not, why not?…gotta split
Sex is sex. “Gay sex ed” is a red herring. Most sex ed has to do with human reproduction (not actually a factor in gay sex, I find myself feeling the need to explain for some reason).
| 239 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:34:09pm |
re: #234 RogueOne
How is that an answer? Don’t move to the town? What if the town changes? What if your dream job is there?
Many of these ‘local control’ arguments seem to wind up arguing that people will naturally segregate themselves into communities of like-minded people— which would be a problem we want to avoid, not encourage.
I don’t think the feds should have zero involvement but I think it’s the locals that have to fund the vast majority of the system and then deal with the results. It should be up to them to decide the curriculum.
How does that logically follow? Shouldn’t what’s best for the kids and education be our guiding light in this?
| 240 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:34:21pm |
re: #236 reine.de.tout
Sounds like you were a good teacher.
And, if this creation topic is to be taught, teaching it in this way, in an English class, or philosophy class, with various creation stories presented, is the way to do it.
Thanks…I miss teaching sometimes, but I’m not willing to take the 70% cut in salary to go back to it just yet. :)
| 241 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:35:04pm |
re: #237 avanti
War takes place between nations, we know where the enemy is, and who’s sponsoring them.
We have two out of your three
I say majority wins out in this case
| 243 |
HoosierHoops Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:35:41pm |
re: #226 wrenchwench
I was in 6th grade in 1968 (or so) and we had a male teacher, which was very unusual in elementary school back then. He decided to be the first teacher anywhere to teach sex education in a public school. I didn’t learn anything, and not because I knew anything. He stammered and sweated more than he spoke. I remember only being thoroughly amused at his discomfort, and that he drew a chicken on the blackboard.
Nobody wants me teaching Sex Education in School…
After raising 5 kids.. I think I’ve seen it all..Including cleaning socks out the toilet …Brothers handing down their Playboy collection..And 2 girls also?
You don’t want me teaching a class with wide eyed kids wanting to know about sex..
/
| 244 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:35:51pm |
re: #228 Bagua
I think the real education just happens naturally. This is true for all sorts of sex, always has been.
That’s old school, nowadays the internet helps teach you to think outside the box so to speak. IYKWIMAITYD
| 245 |
iceweasel Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:36:41pm |
re: #29 Obdicut
Are they the enemy, the children, then?
It’s utterly appalling to me that anyone thinks such an action would be defensible either morally or pragmatically.
The children aren’t the problem. It’s the adults. Kill the children and you’ve just helped create a whole new set of adults who are going to hate us. And you’re helping create a new generation of radicals too— those kids growing up who are told every day that the US killed their brother or their neighborhood playmate or cousin.
If this is a battle for hearts and minds, and you’d better believe it is, this is NOT the way to win them.
| 246 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:38:11pm |
re: #240 darthstar
Thanks…I miss teaching sometimes, but I’m not willing to take the 70% cut in salary to go back to it just yet. :)
My daughter’s favorite science teacher is a retired nuclear physicist from NASA; he is also fluent in several languages, as is his wife, who teaches Spanish at her school.
In the summers they work for a tour company that specializes in educational tours, and they take a group of students from the school to - well, it was Europe last year, will be the UK this summer.
| 247 |
SixDegrees Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:38:30pm |
re: #235 JasonA
Oh no no no. I never meant to give the impression that religion could be ignored like that. I can’t think of a better example than creationism to illustrate what I think has no place in a classroom unless you’re context is historical rather than scientific.
If I were teaching High School biology, I would happily cover creationism. It would wind up looking like it had been in a food processor for a couple of hours, but what the hell.
We currently teach Lamarckism in pretty much all introductory biology classes. It’s as wrong as creationism, but it’s included for illustrative purposes on the way to Darwinism and modern evolutionary thinking.
| 248 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:39:17pm |
re: #225 Obdicut
I get your point. I don’t get why you think your point is a good one. If you are one of the minority of atheists in a very highly religious town that wants to teach creationism, what are your options if you give strong curricular control to the local government?
1. Get on the board and raise heck!
2. Supplement your childrens learning and tell them why the school is crazy (distinguish what they should put on the test and what they should carry with them the rest of their lives).
3. Go to a private school.
4. When all else fails move.
These are all options every parent faces if the schools are not teaching what they feel their kids need to learn.
| 249 |
Lidane Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:43:06pm |
re: #171 JasonA
My rule of thumb: if an atheist cannot accept it then it shouldn’t be taught in schools. Let me know if I’m wrong.
I don’t know if you’re wrong. I can’t say since I don’t have kids of my own. I am, however, an atheist. Gave up on all forms of deity and on organized religion at 18 after having been raised in a Catholic family. Still go to weddings and funerals and the occasional Christmas mass with my mother since I don’t get to see her as often as I’d like, but other than that, religion doesn’t play a role in my life.
That said, what I think we need in schools is simple— real, solid science education (i.e., none of this Creationism/Intelligent Design garbage), ethics, logic, and critical inquiry classes starting in middle school, and no more standardized tests that teachers have to follow, because they just end up teaching to the test and don’t go outside of that, to the detriment of the students. I’m also an advocate for solid, thorough sex education starting in middle school, but that tends to be the most problematic debate to have because everyone’s got different ideas of what kids should be taught.
I’ll settle for the real science, the logic, ethics and criticial thinking, and the exile of all in-class standardized tests. That seems fair. :)
| 250 |
avanti Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:43:39pm |
re: #241 sattv4u2
War takes place between nations, we know where the enemy is, and who’s sponsoring them.
We have two out of your three
I say majority wins out in this case
So we are at war with a few dozen or more counties where certain factions support terrorists ? Do we bomb Yeman off the map, or Somalia, and the rest ?
| 251 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:44:01pm |
re: #239 Obdicut
How is that an answer? Don’t move to the town? What if the town changes? What if your dream job is there?
Many of these ‘local control’ arguments seem to wind up arguing that people will naturally segregate themselves into communities of like-minded people— which would be a problem we want to avoid, not encourage.
I don’t think the feds should have zero involvement but I think it’s the locals that have to fund the vast majority of the system and then deal with the results. It should be up to them to decide the curriculum.
How does that logically follow? Shouldn’t what’s best for the kids and education be our guiding light in this?
Where do you believe you get the right to tell a town in the middle of Nebraska how they’re to educate their children? You don’t live there, you don’t pay taxes there, and you won’t have to deal with the consequences. Unless you’re footing the bill then maybe you should just keep quiet about how they spend their money. You think that somehow since you may want to move their someday that gives you a vote on local issues, it doesn’t. How about you worry about your school district and let me worry about mine.
| 252 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:44:44pm |
re: #239 Obdicut
How is that an answer? Don’t move to the town? What if the town changes? What if your dream job is there?
Many of these ‘local control’ arguments seem to wind up arguing that people will naturally segregate themselves into communities of like-minded people— which would be a problem we want to avoid, not encourage.
I don’t think the feds should have zero involvement but I think it’s the locals that have to fund the vast majority of the system and then deal with the results. It should be up to them to decide the curriculum.
How does that logically follow? Shouldn’t what’s best for the kids and education be our guiding light in this?
Sorry I didn’t see this before my last response. It sounds as though you are in favor of centralized control if it fits your idea of what is best for the kids. The problem with that is when the people in control are not agreeing with you on what is best for the kids.
We can debate what kind of sex and science ed is best for the kids but that doesn’t answer the question of who gets ot be in charge? Obviously we agree that Texas has gone over the cliff but I am not likely to want to replace them with a group that would like us to drive over the other cliff.
It is much easier for you as an involved parent to influence a local board than a state board.
It is much easier for you as a parent to find alternative education for your child if it means moving to the next town vs. the next state.
| 253 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:45:14pm |
re: #248 DaddyG
1. Getting on the board wouldn’t be possible.
2. Of course any decent parent does that— that just abdicates any responsibility on the school.
3. Why should you be forced to spend money?
4. Moving is often not an option or comes with penalties.
These are all options every parent faces if the schools are not teaching what they feel their kids need to learn.
Sure. And that doesn’t change when you change the scale from state to local. however, you ensure that many, many school districts will be teaching creationism and completely failing to prepare students for jobs and for life.
When it has to reach at least state level, the issue is a lot more public, and has the participation of a lot more of the wider community. I do not think, and have no clue why you think, that individual communities know best what their children need to learn. Or why parents do, for that matter.
| 254 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:45:55pm |
re: #239 Obdicut
people will naturally segregate themselves into communities of like-minded people
You don’t think thats been happening since the start of this country?
When I was a child, there were “Italian” neighborhoods, “Irish” ones, “Jewish” ones, “Rich” ones, WASP ones,
Yes ,,,, there were non Italians in the “Italian” one (etc) but people matriculate to where they will be “comfortable”
| 255 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:47:16pm |
re: #250 avanti
So we are at war with a few dozen or more counties where certain factions support terrorists ? Do we bomb Yeman off the map, or Somalia, and the rest ?
No, but we do target the camps, we do put pressure ($$$) ON the state to assist and we do it militarily, not with the police!
| 256 |
Four More Tears Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:48:26pm |
re: #247 SixDegrees
If I were teaching High School biology, I would happily cover creationism. It would wind up looking like it had been in a food processor for a couple of hours, but what the hell.
We currently teach Lamarckism in pretty much all introductory biology classes. It’s as wrong as creationism, but it’s included for illustrative purposes on the way to Darwinism and modern evolutionary thinking.
Hrm. My mind wants to draw a big distinction between incorrect science and incorrect religion. That might be my problem, though.
| 257 |
DaddyG Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:49:23pm |
re: #253 Obdicut
I’d rather choose what and where my children learn than have you choose for me.
So who gets to decide for whom?
That is why local control has my vote. It is much easier to correct. The fantasy of some benign wise authority that will teach the right things if we give them power to do so should be dispelled with the example of the Texas board.
| 258 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:50:03pm |
re: #251 RogueOne
I? I don’t think I have that right.
You don’t live there, you don’t pay taxes there, and you won’t have to deal with the consequences.
Of course I have to deal with the consequences. If they have kids entering the workforce with incorrect scientific information, that affects me. They are still Americans. They are going to vote on issues that affect me, as well.
We are a nation.
Unless you’re footing the bill then maybe you should just keep quiet about how they spend their money.
Again: How does that make sense? The duty we have is to the children. I have no clue why you’re talking about who’s footing the bill— as Chris Rock said “That’s what you’re supposed to do.”
How about you worry about your school district and let me worry about mine.
Because we’re members of the same nation. Or: see the next topic.
re: #252 DaddyG
What’s best for the kids, in terms of education, is being educated, not being told things that are not true and taught anti-science. That doesn’t depend on who’s in charge. It’s a principle.
re: #254 sattv4u2
I thin it’s a constant challenge, but no, I don’t think America has become more and more franctionalized, quite the reverse.
| 259 |
HoosierHoops Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:50:49pm |
re: #254 sattv4u2
people will naturally segregate themselves into communities of like-minded people
You don’t think thats been happening since the start of this country?
When I was a child, there were “Italian” neighborhoods, “Irish” ones, “Jewish” ones, “Rich” ones, WASP ones,
Yes ,,, there were non Italians in the “Italian” one (etc) but people matriculate to where they will be “comfortable”
Sounds like NY or something..
Napa Valley wasn’t like that…Nice place to live…
| 260 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:51:08pm |
re: #253 Obdicut
1. Getting on the board wouldn’t be possible.
WHy not? i’ve gotten on two, in two different states, at two different times in my life
2. Of course any decent parent does that— that just abdicates any responsibility on the school.
No it doesn’t. When the child goes back to school with something other than what the teacher said and the teacher wants to know where ‘Johnny’ learned that, then the teacher and parent meet. Trust me, it works, ESPECIALLY if there are mulitple parents
3. Why should you be forced to spend money?
You shouldn’t. So why are the Dems against vouchers?
4. Moving is often not an option or comes with penalties.
It can just as easily come with rewards
| 261 |
avanti Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:52:00pm |
re: #255 sattv4u2
No, but we do target the camps, we do put pressure ($$$) ON the state to assist and we do it militarily, not with the police!
I agree, and that’s just what we are doing in those countries. I just think the broadened use of the word war to include a war on drugs, poverty, and terrorism is a misuse of the traditional definition.
We attack terrorist camps, but do not wage war on always wage war on the entire country as we did in Afghanistan.
| 262 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:52:41pm |
re: #259 HoosierHoops
Sounds like NY or something..
Napa Valley wasn’t like that…Nice place to live…
Every big city has (had) it’s traditional ethnic and socio-economic enclaves
Even rural areas draw like minded peoples
| 263 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:54:32pm |
re: #261 avanti
I agree, and that’s just what we are doing in those countries. I just think the broadened use of the word war to include a war on drugs, poverty, and terrorism is a misuse of the traditional definition.
We attack terrorist camps, but do not wage war on always wage war on the entire country as we did in Afghanistan.
No, but we SHOULD wage war on an entire entity that IS waging war against us
I loathed when they used the phrase “war on drugs” or “war on poverty”. Still do
War is war, and this is one worth fighting because we better win!
| 264 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:56:28pm |
re: #260 sattv4u2
1.
It wouldn’t be possible if you were an atheist in a strongly religious community.
2
.
I have no clue what that has to do with what I said. Can you explain?
3. You shouldn’t. So why are the Dems against vouchers?
Ask a Democrat. I’m against vouchers because of the effect they have on the public school system. If your real question was “why should i have to pay taxes”, that’s rather different.
4. It can just as easily come with rewards
Oh please. If you have a stable job somewhere— or a couple who both have jobs— moving is a huge goddamn hassle. The whole ‘if you don’t like your local government you can just move’ meme is so tired to me. There’s not going to be somewhere that’s perfect, and that the minority can just move is no excuse for excesses of the majority.
| 265 |
HoosierHoops Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:58:22pm |
re: #262 sattv4u2
Every big city has (had) it’s traditional ethnic and socio-economic enclaves
Even rural areas draw like minded peoples
Napa Valley
1. Old school Farmers and locals
2. Middle class that struggles to make it
3. Millionaire superstars, actors, directors buying everything in sight
4. Aspiring poor cooks and winemakers
5. A dark under world of drugs, sex and money…
and much much more…
| 266 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:09:11pm |
re: #264 Obdicut
1)the 2nd board I was on had 2 (out of 7 members) who are atheists in a very strongly religious southern enclave
,,,,
2) you stated that adding home teachings to your child abdicates the schools responsibility. Actually, it makes the school accountable
FOR INSTANCE,,, Math Teacher says 2+2=5. You, at home show lil Suzie that 2+2=4. Math teacher marks Suzies “4” answer wrong. You confront teacher,, ACCOUNTABILITY
3) VOUCHERS,,, if I were to move out of town, or state, or die they wouldn’t get my property taxes then. People move and die all the time and it hasn’;t killed public schools.
4) so because “moving is a hassle” you stay no matter what? You really wnat to stick with that !?!?!
| 267 |
albusteve Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:09:24pm |
re: #238 darthstar
Sex is sex. “Gay sex ed” is a red herring. Most sex ed has to do with human reproduction (not actually a factor in gay sex, I find myself feeling the need to explain for some reason).
you feel the need because you can be a condescending twit….that wasn’t the question, stick to the subject?…it seems gay sex ed is taught in some schools…can you keep up?…(just trying to be as annoying as you are)
| 268 |
Four More Tears Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:11:22pm |
| 269 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:14:17pm |
re: #264 Obdicut
I’m against vouchers because of the effect they have on the public school system
AND , thats total BS
The cost to the school district for my one child to attend a public school is WAY more than what I pay in property taxes (most of which goes to the schools)
Tha being the case, my one child NOT going to public school actually SAVES the district that money yet i’m still paying the same in taxes (as well as private tuition)
| 270 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:16:50pm |
re: #266 sattv4u2
1)the 2nd board I was on had 2 (out of 7 members) who are atheists in a very strongly religious southern enclave
Where?
2) you stated that adding home teachings to your child abdicates the schools responsibility. Actually, it makes the school accountable
No, it doesn’t. You were using it as a way to say if the school is teaching something is wrong, just teach them what’s right at home. The bit about a parent-teacher confrontation is not a necessary output of that, either.
3) VOUCHERS,,, if I were to move out of town, or state, or die they wouldn’t get my property taxes then. People move and die all the time and it hasn’;t killed public schools.
If you moved to somewhere else, you’d be paying your taxes into another system. That is a completely irrelevant point.
4) so because “moving is a hassle” you stay no matter what? You really wnat to stick with that !?!?!
Please show where I said I’d stay no matter what. Since I didn’t, and you just made that up, you won’t be able to.
For an example that may help you think this through, gays are not leaving San Francisco to go to Iowa, even though gay marriage is illegal here and legal in Iowa.
| 272 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:20:48pm |
re: #271 Obdicut
What is a voucher, according to you?
The portion of the property taxess that I pay that is earmarked to my school district as either a rebate or deduction from my property tax bill so I can use that money to offset the cost of me sending my child to a (accredited by the state) private school
| 273 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:21:08pm |
re: #270 Obdicut
No, it doesn’t. You were using it as a way to say if the school is teaching something is wrong, just teach them what’s right at home. The bit about a parent-teacher confrontation is not a necessary output of that, either./blockquote>
I apologize for this bit, by the way, I shouldn’t have said what you were saying. I meant that to me, what you were saying lead to that. Sorry.
What I mean is that just because you teach your child one thing at home does not necessarily lead to a confrontation between parent and teacher, and even if it does lead to that, doesn’t lead to a resolution of the problem.
| 274 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:23:16pm |
re: #272
Oh, you meant you in particular, not a general I. Sorry again. I thought you meant everyone’s kids cost more than they actually paid for through taxes.
What you said makes sense, then, but only for those people who’s per-child cost to the school is higher than their tax contribution.
| 275 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:25:31pm |
re: #270 Obdicut
1) about 30 miles outside (straight east) of Atlanta Ga.
2) I gave an example. YOU stated that teaching at home abdicates the schools responsibility. I stated just the opposite, that it makes then accountable
3) answered in 269 and 272
4) So you won’t move to improve your childs school district because it’s a “hassle”. So tell me whats important to move for? What will you put up with and stay?
| 276 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:28:57pm |
re: #275 sattv4u2
1. What town, I meant?
2. Yes, I do think that saying you can just teach them the right thing at home abdicates the school’s responsibility— or our responsibility as citizens to make sure our schools are as good as can be. I do not see how what you said changes that one whit.
3. answered in 269 and 272
Yes, and apologies again for misunderstanding you.
4. So you won’t move to improve your childs school district because it’s a “hassle”. So tell me whats important to move for? What will you put up with and stay?
Frankly, I know that most of the education of my kids depend on myself, not the school system, since it’s suffering. I’ll try to get into the best school system that we can, but we will be mostly constrained by my fiancee’s placement in med school, and then later, her placement as a doctor in rotation. So you see, there’s a very real-world example where we will not be free and clear to pick where we live. We will be constrained by her job.
| 277 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:29:51pm |
re: #274 Obdicut
Oh, you meant you in particular, not a general I. Sorry again. I thought you meant everyone’s kids cost more than they actually paid for through taxes.
What you said makes sense, then, but only for those people who’s per-child cost to the school is higher than their tax contribution.
Doesn’t matter. Only someone with a Multi-Million dollar home is paying the amount of property taxes that equals the cost of one childs public school tab. The vast majority, not even close
PLUS ,,,, even though renters kick in because a portion of that rent goes to the owners tax bill, again it doesn’t come close to the cost of public ed,, AND ,,, I’m using 1 child as an example. My property taxes would be the same whether I was sending one or 7 kids to a public school ( as one family I know does )
Taking out MY (or thier) taxes from the public trough will NOT be the end of public ed
| 278 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:30:34pm |
And I have a half hour meeting (because my awesome, awesome boss is leaving to go to another job and we have to figure out how to get along without her) so I won’t be able to respond for a bit. Thank you for replying and apologies yet again for misunderstanding the voucher point.
| 279 |
sattv4u2 Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:36:46pm |
re: #276 Obdicut
#1, I’m not going into any more specificity than that. Last time I gave out that exacting of info I got in a little “hassel” (to use your phrase)
#4. Lets take Atlanta for example (could substitute any major or small city) I live about 30 miles east. I work IN Atlanta
I could just as easily live 30 miles west. Same economic neighborhoods there, same commute, same amenities. If this area went downhill I would be out in a nanosecond. I moved 5 times in three years, 3 of the times long (over 1,000 miles) distance. That your fiancee is IN med school doesn’t mean that if need be you couldn’t draw a circle around that school with a radius as far away as you are now and moce anywhere within that circle
| 280 |
Silvergirl Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:54:05pm |
re: #19 recusancy
Ethics aside. It wouldn’t be smart. You’ll just insight twice the amount of people who were in the buildings who may have not been sympathetic to the cause or on the fence. If that building was in a vacuum and there would be no collateral damage, go for it. Otherwise, not smart.
I agree with your answer, absolutely. I just can’t let that insight go without correction, so I’m playing Cato for a sec to tell you that it’s incite.
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Anymouse 🌹🏡😷
A Friday at the Tail End of SpringJust out and about for a bit. First a walk downtown where the two rivers meet, then a short drive just outside of town. William Lewis
This Civil War Submarine Vanished for 136 Years [VIDEO] A Civil War submarine powered by hand cranks and lit by candlelight. What could possibly go wrong? Meet the HL Hunley. Support the production of these videos through our Patreon: patreon.com Thank you to Nick DeLong from Clemson University ...
teleskiguy
Billions in US Taxpayer Dollars Now Go to Religious Schools via Vouchers Billions in taxpayer dollars are being used to pay tuition at religious schools throughout the country, as state voucher programs expand dramatically and the line separating public education and religion fades. School vouchers can be used at almost any ...
Cheechako
Adobe Caught Selling AI Generated Images Imitating Ansel Adams’ Work Adobe scolded for selling ‘Ansel Adams-style’ images generated by AI Adobe found itself in hot water this weekend after the Ansel Adams estate publicly scolded the company for selling generative AI imitations of the late photographer’s work. On Friday, ... William Lewis
The Good Liars at The Libertarian Convention [VIDEO] The Good Liars visit the Libertarian Convention in Washington DC. They interview presidential candidates, talk to someone who thinks people should be allowed to own nuclear weapons, and Starchild. SUPPORT US: herohero.co SEE THE GOOD LIARS LIVE!NASHVILLE, TN JUNE ... teleskiguy
Trump Allies Test a New Strategy for Blocking Election Results They Don’t Like When a member of Georgia’s Fulton County Board of Registration and Elections refused to join her colleagues as they certified two primaries this year, she claimed she had been denied her right to examine a long list of election ... Cheechako
US Military M17 & M18 Pistols Causing Unintentional Discharges Documents detail U.S. soldiers shot by their own Sig Sauer guns; military says no reason for concern Around lunchtime on Feb. 8, 2023, inside an administrative office at Fort Eustis in Virginia, a sergeant with the Army’s 221st Military ... William Lewis
The Good Liars at Miami Trump Rally [VIDEO] Jason and Davram talk with Trump supporters about art, Mike Lindell, who is really president and more! SUPPORT US: herohero.co SEE THE GOOD LIARS LIVE!LOS ANGELES, CA squadup.com SUBSCRIBE TO OUR AUDIO PODCAST:Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.comSpotify: open.spotify.comJoin this channel to ... teleskiguy
