Louisiana Education Board Considers Sneaking Creationism Into Schools

Science • Views: 3,195

They laid low for more than a year, waiting for attention to go elsewhere, but the Louisiana Family Forum and right wing Republican legislators are now poised to use Louisiana Governor (and part time exorcist) Bobby Jindal’s stealth creationist bill to sneak the teaching of this anti-science doctrine into public schools. Americans United for Separation of Church and State has a press release today about an outrageous new policy: AU Warns Louisiana Education Board Not To Adopt Review Policy That Favors Creationism | Americans United.

A new policy under consideration by the Louisiana Board of Elementary and Secondary Education is slanted to favor creationism and should be revised, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

Due to lobbying by the Religious Right, Louisiana legislators approved a law in 2008 that allows for “supplemental materials” to be used in public school science classes. The Board has developed a policy for reviewing these materials that is seriously flawed, says Americans United.

“It’s obvious what’s going on here,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. “Louisiana elected officials are once again trying to undercut the teaching of evolution and slip creationism into science classes. This effort must fail.”

In a letter sent to the Board, Americans United warns that the proposed review policy is constitutionally suspect because it appears to open the door for creationist concepts to be taught in public schools.

The Board calls for allowing challenged materials to be reviewed by a panel that could easily be stacked with people sympathetic to creationism. It would bypass the expert opinion of the Louisiana Department of Education.

“The proposed procedure for reviewing challenged supplemental material is unnecessarily complicated and appears designed to provide a forum for promoting creationism,” asserts AU’s letter.

The letter notes that the Board’s proposal “would create the opportunity for a show trial with ‘experts’ presenting reports” that attempt to portray creationist supplemental materials as scientifically sound and supported by empirical evidence.

The Louisiana Family Forum, a state affiliate of Religious Right leader James Dobson’s Focus on the Family, pushed for adoption of the new law and will likely try to use it to smuggle creationist materials into public schools.

In fact, AU’s letter points out, the U.S. Supreme Court and several lower federal courts have struck down the teaching of creationism in public schools. The Board’s proposed policy, AU says, is “unfair and illogical” and “appears to have the unconstitutional purpose of promoting religion.”

We had a post about this review policy back in September of last year; it’s intended to make it difficult for residents to challenge the teaching of creationism: Creationists Win Another One in Louisiana.

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215 comments
1 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:39:58pm

Well, the world needs ditch diggers too.

Seriously, why must the American Taliban be given so much power in this country? It's just a matter of time before they start asking girls to wear veils to school.

2 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:40:05pm

Good grief!
I read the newspaper and watch the local news, and I hear about this HERE at LGF, not from the local news media.

Disgraceful all the way around.

3 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:40:36pm

Science!... or lack thereof.

4 Kragar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:41:48pm

These damn holy rolling idiots are doing more to kill the Right than the Left could ever hope to do.

5 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:41:57pm

Is there much more to creationism than "god created earth 6-10,000 years ago and you're uncle was not a monkey?" So much so that it can't be taught sometime between suppertime and Lost? I mean, I know they have a museum and everything but it just doesn't seem like that deep a subject to me in the first place.

6 KernelPanic  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:42:06pm

Need to page the flying spaghetti monster people -- if the authors left enough wiggle room within “supplemental materials” for creationism to sneak in it should be pretty easy to start writing up Pastafarian “supplemental materials” packet as well.

That said it would be sort of tragi-comic for the Flying Spaghetti Monster to make into an official curriculum somewhere.

7 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:42:55pm

re: #6 KernelPanic

Need to page the flying spaghetti monster people -- if the authors left enough wiggle room within “supplemental materials” for creationism to sneak in it should be pretty easy to start writing up Pastafarian “supplemental materials” packet as well.

That said it would be sort of tragi-comic for the Flying Spaghetti Monster to make into an official curriculum somewhere.

Give it sixty years, and the Church of the FSM will be a recognized religion.

8 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:42:59pm

re: #6 KernelPanic

Need to page the flying spaghetti monster people -- if the authors left enough wiggle room within “supplemental materials” for creationism to sneak in it should be pretty easy to start writing up Pastafarian “supplemental materials” packet as well.

That said it would be sort of tragi-comic for the Flying Spaghetti Monster to make into an official curriculum somewhere.

My sense of humor is sick enough to appreciate that. I bet some kids would, too.

9 Girth  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:43:17pm

re: #6 KernelPanic

Need to page the flying spaghetti monster people -- if the authors left enough wiggle room within “supplemental materials” for creationism to sneak in it should be pretty easy to start writing up Pastafarian “supplemental materials” packet as well.

That said it would be sort of tragi-comic for the Flying Spaghetti Monster to make into an official curriculum somewhere.

That's what I'd do if I lived in LA.

10 KernelPanic  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:43:51pm

re: #7 darthstar

My sense of humor is sick enough to appreciate that. I bet some kids would, too.

My FSM car emblem has already gotten me a few free carwashes. One of the workers is a fan and just waved me on through ...

11 SixDegrees  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:44:24pm
The Board calls for allowing challenged materials to be reviewed by a panel that could easily be stacked with people sympathetic to creationism. It would bypass the expert opinion of the Louisiana Department of Education.

Per the thread downstairs: how about having the challenge heard by someone who actually knows what science is? Like, for example, the American Academy for the Advancement of Science? Or the National Science Foundation? You know, like, experts in the field.

I have no doubt at all that either of these organizations would be happy to help review science curriculum materials.

12 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:44:45pm

re: #10 KernelPanic

My FSM car emblem has already gotten me a few free carwashes. One of the workers is a fan and just waved me on through ...

I once saw a cute girl driving on the Parkway with one of those, the fish with legs emblem, you name it. I swooned.

13 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:45:15pm

re: #11 SixDegrees

Are they "local?"
//

14 Kragar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:45:50pm

re: #6 KernelPanic

Need to page the flying spaghetti monster people -- if the authors left enough wiggle room within “supplemental materials” for creationism to sneak in it should be pretty easy to start writing up Pastafarian “supplemental materials” packet as well.

That said it would be sort of tragi-comic for the Flying Spaghetti Monster to make into an official curriculum somewhere.

I'd be willing to set up a package explaining Lovecraftian creationism, covering the histories of the Great Race of Yith, the Fungi from Mi-Go and the Shoggoths and their contributions to the rise of modern man. Unfortunately, a fair percentage of students sanity will be shattered permanently, but thats a risk you take for a well rounded education.

15 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:45:54pm

re: #2 reine.de.tout

Good grief!
I read the newspaper and watch the local news, and I hear about this HERE at LGF, not from the local news media.

Disgraceful all the way around.

Interesting. Maybe it's a popular law and news outlets don't want to anger their customers by reporting criticisms.

16 SixDegrees  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:46:35pm

re: #13 JasonA

Are they "local?"
//

Nope. And in general, when disputes of such a nature are encountered, they are passed to larger, more national authorities - not to smaller, more local ones.

17 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:49:05pm

re: #10 KernelPanic

My FSM car emblem has already gotten me a few free carwashes. One of the workers is a fan and just waved me on through ...

I used to have the Darwin fish on my car about 14 years ago. My ex and I were camping in Felton (near Santa Cruz) and the people next to us had an Accord also...with the Jesus fish on it. They invited us to their camp-site for afternoon beers and as a matter of conversation said, "We noticed your car has a fish too!" before inviting us to join them in prayer.

I said, "Yes, but my fish has feet on it and says 'Darwin' in the middle." as they hadn't noticed.

Their reaction was hilarious. They all looked at each other (the couple and their parents), said, "That's okay" about three times, and then we moved on to the next topic of conversation...jokes. And the jokes the father told (now that they knew we weren't Christian) were all off-color jokes I won't even begin to repeat.

What a weird day that was.

18 DaddyG  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:52:52pm

Trust the people.

Be wary of the State.

Teach the children many viewpoints and teach them reasoning skills.

It is the person who thinks they know better and wants all of the control that I fear the most.

Gotta catch the bus.

19 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:53:02pm

re: #5 JasonA
As I see it there is a regularly scheduled school session where creationism is perfectly appropriate. In fact required reading.

It's called Sunday School.

20 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:54:20pm

re: #11 SixDegrees

Per the thread downstairs: how about having the challenge heard by someone who actually knows what science is? Like, for example, the American Academy for the Advancement of Science? Or the National Science Foundation? You know, like, experts in the field.

I have no doubt at all that either of these organizations would be happy to help review science curriculum materials.

There is a lady who is a science teacher at Southeastern University (I cannot recall her name right now) who is spearheading an effort to stop this insanity.

I just sent a letter off to the Baton Rouge paper urging them to take an editorial stand against creationism. Who knows what the heck they will do - they've pretty much ignored it up 'til now.

21 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:54:37pm

re: #19 Rightwingconspirator

As I see it there is a regularly scheduled school session where creationism is perfectly appropriate. In fact required reading.

It's called Sunday School.

Exactly.

22 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:55:45pm

re: #20 reine.de.tout

There is a lady who is a science teacher at Southeastern University (I cannot recall her name right now) who is spearheading an effort to stop this insanity.

I just sent a letter off to the Baton Rouge paper urging them to take an editorial stand against creationism. Who knows what the heck they will do - they've pretty much ignored it up 'til now.

No chance they'd actually endorse it... is there?

23 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:55:52pm

re: #21 reine.de.tout

Such a simple elegant answer. So simple it tells me the politicians are playing this for effect. Deliberately polarizing.

24 freetoken  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:57:38pm

re: #18 DaddyG

Trust the people.

Ummm...no. My decades on this planet have taught me that Homo sapiens is a mixed lot, and are all over the scale of Trustworthiness.

Be wary of the State.

Which, in the US, is the people of your first sentance.

Teach the children many viewpoints and teach them reasoning skills.

Umm... again, no. Yes, I do believe a person is better by being exposed to, and pondering, a wide variety of viewpoints during their lives. However, that does not imply it is a good idea to teach children false ideas.

It is the person who thinks they know better and wants all of the control that I fear the most.

Everyone desires control, and in a nation as big and diverse as ours no one gets "all" the control.

25 recusancy  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:57:46pm

re: #20 reine.de.tout

There is a lady who is a science teacher at Southeastern University (I cannot recall her name right now) who is spearheading an effort to stop this insanity.

I just sent a letter off to the Baton Rouge paper urging them to take an editorial stand against creationism. Who knows what the heck they will do - they've pretty much ignored it up 'til now.

Won't happen. My local newspaper runs pro creationist editorials all the time. It's a "legitimate debate" here. And this isn't even the south.

26 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:57:55pm

Tonight's Glenn Beck looks interesting....
Beck: Obama's plan was to 'collapse the economy' w/ObamaCare creating the new framework 4 'control'

It appears Bush, Van Jones and ACORN were all in on the plot.

27 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:57:58pm

re: #18 DaddyG

I don't trust the people. I trust the people when mediated through a representational democracy, a strong court system, and laws to protect the minority.

28 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:58:21pm

re: #23 Rightwingconspirator

Such a simple elegant answer. So simple it tells me the politicians are playing this for effect. Deliberately polarizing.

Of course politicians play this up for effect. If it means winning a seat in Congress, a politician would let the bible be taught as factual history in schools...because they'd send their kids to a school that didn't teach it.

29 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:58:26pm

re: #13 JasonA

Are they "local?"
//

+1 for snark

Their education rankings can't get much worse. Here's a suggestion, don't move to Louisiana unless you plan on private schooling.

[Link: www.2theadvocate.com...]

ACT SCORE
48th Rank among states.

ADVANCED PLACEMENT EXAMS
2.2%
50th Rank among states.

ELEMENTARY READING

44th Rank among states on the National Assessment of Educational Progress test for fourth-graders.

MIDDLE SCHOOL MATH

46th Rank among states on the National Assessment of Educational Progress test for eighth-graders.

SCHOOL PERFORMANCE SCORES
2.5% Schools with four and five-star ratings in 2006.
6.3% Schools rated “academically unacceptable.”

I took out the poverty rates, which are horrific, to shorten the post.

30 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:58:51pm

re: #22 JasonA

No chance they'd actually endorse it... is there?

Eh - they're fairly liberal, so I doubt they would endorse it. More likely they will continue to ignore it.

31 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:58:52pm

re: #5 JasonA

Is there much more to creationism than "god created earth 6-10,000 years ago and you're uncle was not a monkey?" So much so that it can't be taught sometime between suppertime and Lost? I mean, I know they have a museum and everything but it just doesn't seem like that deep a subject to me in the first place.

I had the misfortune of trying to debate a creationist at our table at a New Years eve party. Every time I tried to state facts about the fossil record, he's come back with "Were you there" or point out a few mistaken in the record. I'd ask how he could explain coral reefs 1000's of feet high pff the ocean floor in 6000 years when we knew coral growth rates, and I'd get how do we know the God did not make the coral grow faster.

32 Ojoe  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 2:59:25pm

Some people get a big bang from arguing this topic.

33 Kragar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:00:43pm

Just saw that the Darwin biopic, Creation, comes out later this month:

34 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:01:05pm

I wonder...

If some "local" community wanted their public schools to teach the following as the origin of mankind, wouldn't we all have the desire to protect the children from such nonsense?

[Link: www.metacafe.com...]

35 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:01:12pm

re: #32 Ojoe

Heh. Took me a moment to get the joke. Thought you were winging for a second there, but I ought to have known better.

36 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:02:01pm

re: #29 RogueOne

+1 for snark

Their education rankings can't get much worse. Here's a suggestion, don't move to Louisiana unless you plan on private schooling.

[Link: www.2theadvocate.com...]

ACT SCORE
48th Rank among states.

ADVANCED PLACEMENT EXAMS
2.2%
50th Rank among states.

ELEMENTARY READING

44th Rank among states on the National Assessment of Educational Progress test for fourth-graders.

MIDDLE SCHOOL MATH

46th Rank among states on the National Assessment of Educational Progress test for eighth-graders.

SCHOOL PERFORMANCE SCORES
2.5% Schools with four and five-star ratings in 2006.
6.3% Schools rated “academically unacceptable.”

I took out the poverty rates, which are horrific, to shorten the post.

Absolutely.
Do NOT move to Louisiana unless you have the ability to pay $7,000 to $15,000 a year PER CHILD for school.

37 freetoken  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:02:18pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

The Onion couldn't have done any better with the three obligatory talking pretty-faces...

38 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:02:29pm

re: #31 avanti

I had the misfortune of trying to debate a creationist at our table at a New Years eve party. Every time I tried to state facts about the fossil record, he's come back with "Were you there" or point out a few mistaken in the record. I'd ask how he could explain coral reefs 1000's of feet high pff the ocean floor in 6000 years when we knew coral growth rates, and I'd get how do we know the God did not make the coral grow faster.

Why? I was always told "you can't teach a pig to sing, it's a waste of time and irritates the pig" meaning don't do things you know are going to end with you wanting to beat your head against a wall.//

39 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:03:18pm

re: #19 Rightwingconspirator

As I see it there is a regularly scheduled school session where creationism is perfectly appropriate. In fact required reading.

It's called Sunday School.

I get your point, but to be pedantic I would argue it has no business being taught in Sunday School either -- because it's a false world view that can only lead to ignorance. It's wrong to teach children things that are known to be false, and there's absolutely no doubt that Biblical literalist creationism is complete nonsense.

40 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:03:37pm

re: #37 freetoken

It's still strange to me that nobody calls him on this stuff. It's an amazing conspiracy that he lays out.

41 freetoken  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:05:12pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Those pretty-faces... they are there merely as adornment, like ornaments on a Christmas tree. Which is why the Onion can so easily spoof them... it doesn't take much original writing, one can simply take a transcript from the "real" show and make slight modifications.

42 Ojoe  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:05:24pm

re: #35 Obdicut

LGF is a humor site also.

43 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:05:52pm

re: #42 Ojoe

And a good one at that.

Unless I'm telling the jokes.

44 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:06:26pm

Glenn Beck - The Cloward And Piven Strategy

Apparently Abe Lincoln was part of the progressive conspiracy for for starting the income tax to pay for the civil war (yeah, the one that freed the slaves).

45 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:06:44pm

re: #39 Charles

I get your point, but to be pedantic I would argue it has no business being taught in Sunday School either -- because it's a false world view that can only lead to ignorance. It's wrong to teach children things that are known to be false, and there's absolutely no doubt that Biblical literalist creationism is complete nonsense.

I agree that literal Biblical creationism is nonsense; I also think a parent who teaches this nonsense to their kids is doing something bordering on child abuse. Just my .02 on that.

But there are people who believe it, as weird as it seems, and if people insist on having it taught to their kids - Sunday School is where it belongs. And it's my opinion that that is the message that MIGHT get through to some people who might otherwise be for the teaching of creationism in schools.

46 Jaerik  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:08:26pm

When you don't teach science in schools anymore beyond a handful of electives for gifted kids, can you really be surprised when religious folk conflate the two? To them, it's an "alternative teaching" that they're told to accept on "faith," and so to them there's no difference between Darwin and say, Muhammad.

If you have never been taught how science works, by verifiable testing of hypothesis, etc, you can't really blame them.

The solution is to have more real science education in classrooms. Not memorizing "Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species" and forgetting it a month later, but actually learning that science works, is objectively verifiable, and thus cannot be compared to religion.

47 freetoken  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:08:47pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Oh yes, that nasty Lincoln - Teddy R. axis ... back when the GOP was pulling the country into the future, rather than trying to hold it back.

48 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:09:05pm

re: #38 RogueOne

Why? I was always told "you can't teach a pig to sing, it's a waste of time and irritates the pig" meaning don't do things you know are going to end with you wanting to beat your head against a wall.//

The conversion ended when I apparently gave him a smirk that he correctly took to mean that the pig was not going to sing despite my best efforts.
The entire conversation started when I recommended LGF to him since he appeared to be a moderate conservative until we got on the age of the earth.

49 recusancy  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:09:37pm

re: #47 freetoken

Oh yes, that nasty Lincoln - Teddy R. axis ... back when the GOP was pulling the country into the future, rather than trying to hold it back.

aka Progressives

50 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:10:04pm

re: #46 Jaerik

Starting with logic as the basis for science would be a start. We teach kids science without really teaching them to apply the scientific method.

51 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:10:29pm

re: #47 freetoken

I'm learning all kinds of interesting things. They stopped teaching constitutional law in law schools in the 1920's. Wow, he's on a different planet.

52 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:12:11pm

At 2:30

Progressives taught if the founders were "evil white guys".
53 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:12:22pm

Here's a fun idea...someone should hire this young woman's lobbying firm to lobby against teaching Creationism in schools. She's just starting out, so she could use the business.

I guess this means she's putting off Junior College for a while while the money's good.

54 jvic  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:12:45pm

re: #23 Rightwingconspirator

Such a simple elegant answer. So simple it tells me the politicians are playing this for effect. Deliberately polarizing.

A saying has been drifting through the intertubes for a few weeks. "Remember: The issue is never the issue. The issue is control."

re: #24 freetoken

Everyone desires control, and in a nation as big and diverse as ours no one gets "all" the control.

With respect, freetoken, I desire neither to control nor to be controlled. That ideal is not achievable in the world as we know it, but IMO it remains a valid ideal, perhaps an essential one.

55 Jaerik  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:12:46pm

re: #50 Obdicut

Starting with logic as the basis for science would be a start. We teach kids science without really teaching them to apply the scientific method.

Exactly. As long as we're relating "science" as some nebulous set of teachings from an authority somewhere, and not a process by which to verify objective truths about the world, it's easy to conflate it with religion. Which is just a bunch of nebulous "teachings" that people say you should accept on faith too.

Ultimately, it's a self-perpetuating failing of our school system. You don't teach science well, and you blur the differences between it and religion. Which allows it to creep into science, further confusing people, and...

56 bubba zanetti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:13:10pm

re: #1 darthstar

It's just a matter of time before they start asking girls to wear veils to school.

No, because then you won't know which pretty girl to marry. Once you've tied the knot though then they'll take the chastity belt off.

///

57 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:13:32pm

Byron Dorgan isn't going to run for re-election this year. That kind of opens it up.

58 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:14:01pm

re: #53 darthstar

Rachel Maddow ran that story last night. It's not certain that she's going into lobbying, and probably won't be.

59 Jimmah  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:15:53pm

White Lizards Evolve in New Mexico Dunes

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

60 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:16:05pm

As a possible future high school science teacher, I can say that there is no chance that I will teach Creationism in my classroom.

Ever.

I don't see any real push here in North Carolina, but being the state that gave you all Jesse Helms and Virginia Fox, nothing is certain.

61 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:16:57pm

re: #50 Obdicut

Starting with logic as the basis for science would be a start. We teach kids science without really teaching them to apply the scientific method.

See? That's something else we agree on, maybe you should think about getting involved with your local school district.

62 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:17:41pm

re: #59 Jimmah

White Lizards Evolve in New Mexico Dunes

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

From the article

the dunes formed only about 6,000 years ago.

AHA! PROOF!!!!

63 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:18:08pm

re: #50 Obdicut

I left you an answer to your questions in the previous thread

(sorry ,, slow typer)

64 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:18:14pm

re: #58 JasonA

Rachel Maddow ran that story last night. It's not certain that she's going into lobbying, and probably won't be.

Track's probably somewhere in Iraq saying, "WTF? If I'd known I just had to get some girl pregnant I could have my own company with mom's sycophants sending me money and other people running it, I wouldn't be here sleeping on a cot!" At least he's away from the craziness. /

(note: I mock, but I do wish Track the best of luck on his tour. )

65 SixDegrees  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:18:56pm

re: #39 Charles

I get your point, but to be pedantic I would argue it has no business being taught in Sunday School either -- because it's a false world view that can only lead to ignorance. It's wrong to teach children things that are known to be false, and there's absolutely no doubt that Biblical literalist creationism is complete nonsense.

Nonetheless, what parents teach their children is, with enormous latitude, up to the parents. I can easily argue against teaching creationism as though it were science in the public schools, where there is a clear attempt to end run the Constitution's Establishment Clause. But when it comes to what's taught at home or by churches, the most I can do it disagree with it - there's no way to keep it from being taught without undermining the Constitution beneath another bulwark.

I know you're not suggesting that, but I want the point to be clear.

66 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:19:02pm

re: #55 Jaerik

Exactly. As long as we're relating "science" as some nebulous set of teachings from an authority somewhere, and not a process by which to verify objective truths about the world, it's easy to conflate it with religion. Which is just a bunch of nebulous "teachings" that people say you should accept on faith too.

Ultimately, it's a self-perpetuating failing of our school system. You don't teach science well, and you blur the differences between it and religion. Which allows it to creep into science, further confusing people, and...

Good point...and one of the many failings of the MSM when they report on these stories. You won't see Soledad O'Brian on CNN saying that Creationism is religious mysticism. Nope. They treat ALL viewpoints as being equally valid out of a need to push false equivalency and controversy.

67 Jimmah  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:19:03pm

re: #62 JasonA

AHA! PROOF!!!

Heh - I was waiting for that.

68 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:19:09pm

re: #59 Jimmah

I like the blue tint.

69 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:19:14pm

re: #61 RogueOne

I am involved in my local school district. I also work at a company that makes educational toys for children.

However, based on the last thread, you do not want to mandate science education, and I'm confused as to why, if you agree with my statement. Can you explain?

70 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:19:57pm

re: #63 sattv4u2

I responded. Fast typer, me.

71 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:19:58pm

re: #64 darthstar

Eh. I'd stay away from them as far as the mocking is concerned. Momma bear's fair game, but I just tend to filter the kids out of my humor circuit entirely.

72 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:20:29pm

re: #71 JasonA

Eh. I'd stay away from them as far as the mocking is concerned. Momma bear's fair game, but I just tend to filter the kids out of my humor circuit entirely.

Good advice. Thanks.

73 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:20:52pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

Interesting. Maybe it's a popular law and news outlets don't want to anger their customers by reporting criticisms.

Yeah, I've wondered about that.
They will rock the boat a little bit - but not much. And this might fall into the "much" category.

74 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:21:22pm

re: #45 reine.de.tout

I agree that literal Biblical creationism is nonsense; I also think a parent who teaches this nonsense to their kids is doing something bordering on child abuse. Just my .02 on that.

But there are people who believe it, as weird as it seems, and if people insist on having it taught to their kids - Sunday School is where it belongs. And it's my opinion that that is the message that MIGHT get through to some people who might otherwise be for the teaching of creationism in schools.

I tend to think of it as, science describes the "how" while religion describes the "why".

75 RogueOne  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:22:29pm

re: #69 Obdicut

I am involved in my local school district. I also work at a company that makes educational toys for children.

However, based on the last thread, you do not want to mandate science education, and I'm confused as to why, if you agree with my statement. Can you explain?

The short answer is I don't my place to stick my nose into other peoples business.

Gotta run folks, have fun.

76 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:22:48pm

re: #10 KernelPanic

My FSM car emblem has already gotten me a few free carwashes. One of the workers is a fan and just waved me on through ...

I had a cthulhu fish On my old beater Toyota. Didn't get me any free stuff, though :D

77 recusancy  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:23:23pm

re: #75 RogueOne

The short answer is I don't my place to stick my nose into other peoples business.

Gotta run folks, have fun.

Teaching science in school is sticking your nose in other people's business?

78 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:24:07pm

re: #75 RogueOne

The short answer is I don't my place to stick my nose into other peoples business.

Gotta run folks, have fun.


??? Now I gotta check that thread out. Public education policy is "other peoples' business?"

79 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:24:15pm

re: #74 MandyManners

I tend to think of it as, science describes the "how" while religion describes the "why".

Mandy - I do too. And that's how it was taught to me.

But I have a neighbor who absolutely believes the earth is 6000 years old and dinosaurs walked with man. She believes it, and I'm sure she would be all for teaching this in the schools. The only thing that might convince her that this is a bad idea would be a reminder that she would be better off having her church's teachings taught by those qualified to teach it, rather than a public school teacher with no theological training whatsoever.

80 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:24:17pm

re: #75 RogueOne

Then I'm at a loss to understand how we agree.

81 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:25:16pm

Woodrow Wilson is part of the progressive Clowrd Piven conspiracy too. I haven't watched a full Beck episoide in a very long time but this one's pretty entertaining.

82 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:27:03pm

re: #66 celticdragon

Good point...and one of the many failings of the MSM when they report on these stories. You won't see Soledad O'Brian on CNN saying that Creationism is religious mysticism. Nope. They treat ALL viewpoints as being equally valid out of a need to push false equivalency and controversy.


Conflict drives news narrative, narrative brings in viewers. Notice a big narrative (like Tiger Woods, or Ft. Hood) will bring with it a whole bunch of ancillary interest stories to stretch out the news cycle? and sometimes the narrative becomes an uncontrollable monster, like the Terri Schiavo story.

83 political lunatic  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:31:30pm

Dear God, if you exist, PLEASE save me from your followers.

84 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:31:52pm

re: #79 reine.de.tout

Mandy - I do too. And that's how it was taught to me.

But I have a neighbor who absolutely believes the earth is 6000 years old and dinosaurs walked with man. She believes it, and I'm sure she would be all for teaching this in the schools. The only thing that might convince her that this is a bad idea would be a reminder that she would be better off having her church's teachings taught by those qualified to teach it, rather than a public school teacher with no theological training whatsoever.

I wonder what she would say if you asked her why dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the Bible.

85 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:32:28pm

re: #18 DaddyG

Trust the people.

Be wary of the State.

Teach the children many viewpoints and teach them reasoning skills.

It is the person who thinks they know better and wants all of the control that I fear the most.

Gotta catch the bus.


"The People" had to be forced to end segregation. "The People" went to war to protect slavery. "The People" still think gays are not worthy of equal status as Americans.

i don't trust The People as far as I can hurl them down a football field. Maybe if you were a minority, you'd take a dimmer view of "The People."

Teach the children critical thinking skills, respect for the scientific method, and suspicion of people who would supplant science with myth.

86 HAL2010  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:33:22pm

re: #85 WindUpBird

"The People" had to be forced to end segregation. "The People" went to war to protect slavery. "The People" still think gays are not worthy of equal status as Americans.

i don't trust The People as far as I can hurl them down a football field. Maybe if you were a minority, you'd take a dimmer view of "The People."

Teach the children critical thinking skills, respect for the scientific method, and suspicion of people who would supplant science with myth.

Which is why the Constitution is there. To protect the people from the people.

87 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:33:25pm

re: #81 Killgore Trout

a full Beck episoide in a very long time but this one's pretty entertaining.

re: #84 MandyManners

I wonder what she would say if you asked her why dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the Bible.

They've made up answers for everything.

88 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:34:25pm

re: #86 HAL2010

Which is why the Constitution is there. To protect the people from the people.

What a great quote! UPDINGS :D

89 SixDegrees  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:34:36pm

re: #84 MandyManners

I wonder what she would say if you asked her why dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the Bible.

Creationists are adept at misinterpreting several Biblical passages as references to dinosaurs.

90 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:34:55pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Oh noes! Clowyrd and Pivened! We've been had! We R doomed... dooommmmed... Doomed I tell you!

/tonight at five o'clock

91 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:34:58pm

re: #87 JasonA

Oops. Didn't mean to quote KT.

92 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:35:14pm

/oh yeah, and buy gold...

93 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:36:22pm

re: #84 MandyManners

I wonder what she would say if you asked her why dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the Bible.

They insist that the mysterious large animals mentioned in Job are dinosaurs.

94 HAL2010  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:36:27pm

re: #88 WindUpBird

I don't trust the damn people with a potatogun. We need laws to protect ourselves from each other. That realisation is why is why I am not an anarcho-capitalist.

95 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:36:38pm

re: #87 JasonA


I was wondering the other day. Are there Satanist Creationists? You'd think there'd sorta have to be, right? People who are Bible Literalists, who are rooting for the other side. I mean, if you REALLY believe in Satan, why not?

/yes, I know about Anton Lavey and selfish Satanism, etc etc

96 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:36:56pm

re: #86 HAL2010

Which is why the Constitution is there. To protect the people from the people.

Upding.

97 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:37:00pm

re: #87 JasonA

They've made up answers for everything.

"There was never a time when dinosaurs ruled the earth. From the very beginning of creation, God gave man dominion over all that was made, even over the dinosaurs."...Oh...that explains it. /

98 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:37:39pm

re: #94 HAL2010

I don't trust the damn people with a potatogun. We need laws to protect ourselves from each other. That realisation is why is why I am not an anarcho-capitalist.

You should read Thomas Hobbes.

99 Lidane  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:37:50pm

re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'd be willing to set up a package explaining Lovecraftian creationism, covering the histories of the Great Race of Yith, the Fungi from Mi-Go and the Shoggoths and their contributions to the rise of modern man. Unfortunately, a fair percentage of students sanity will be shattered permanently, but thats a risk you take for a well rounded education.

Upding for the sheer awesomeness of that image.

On another note, the Wingularity has somehow managed to divide by zero:

World Net Daily attacks Glenn Beck for lampooning its birther smear

Ow, my head.

100 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:38:08pm

re: #87 JasonA

They've made up answers for everything.

Oh, the behemoth quote.

Well, where are the unicorns mentioned in the Bible?

101 SixDegrees  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:38:11pm

re: #95 WindUpBird

I was wondering the other day. Are there Satanist Creationists? You'd think there'd sorta have to be, right? People who are Bible Literalists, who are rooting for the other side. I mean, if you REALLY believe in Satan, why not?

/yes, I know about Anton Lavey and selfish Satanism, etc etc

One explanation given by creationists for fossils is that they are tricks planted by the Devil to deceive mankind.

I suppose a Satanist could embrace that explanation.

102 HAL2010  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:38:50pm

"Which is why the Constitution is there. To protect the people from the people."

My 16 year old self would be so dissapointed with me right now, no doubt throwing Nozicks "Anarchy, State, Utopia" at my face and ranting about fascism.

103 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:38:56pm

re: #93 celticdragon

They insist that the mysterious large animals mentioned in Job are dinosaurs.

As I asked Jason, what about the unicorns?

104 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:39:18pm

re: #100 MandyManners

Oh, the behemoth quote.

Well, where are the unicorns mentioned in the Bible?

Why do you even have to ask these questions? :P

105 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:39:57pm

re: #100 MandyManners

Oh, the behemoth quote.

Well, where are the unicorns mentioned in the Bible?

These guys used to come stay at our house when they toured in Northern California (they came from the same part of Ireland as my mom). Man those were some drunken evenings of song.

106 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:40:23pm

re: #99 Lidane

Heh, I predicted this back during the Luap Nor campaign -- they will turn on each other because you have to remember they aren't just a basket chock full of nuts, they are a basket chock full of mixed nuts.

107 HAL2010  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:40:43pm

re: #98 celticdragon

I have, Leviathan is incredible, Hobbes is thoroughly misunderstood so often. Locke is fantastic, and so is Kant.

108 Jimmah  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:41:15pm

re: #89 SixDegrees

Creationists are adept at misinterpreting several Biblical passages as references to dinosaurs.

I'll let Christopher Moltosanti answer that one...

109 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:41:35pm

re: #102 HAL2010

"Which is why the Constitution is there. To protect the people from the people."

My 16 year old self would be so dissapointed with me right now, no doubt throwing Nozicks "Anarchy, State, Utopia" at my face and ranting about fascism.


Your 16 year old self was more studious than mine! I was busy trying to find all the Rainbow Worlds in Star Control 2.

110 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:41:37pm

re: #103 MandyManners

As I asked Jason, what about the unicorns?

No doubt they are Satanic delusions associated with imagery enamating from our creampuff rainbow-bright dirty frakking hippy librul President.


Or something.

111 SixDegrees  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:42:25pm

re: #100 MandyManners

Oh, the behemoth quote.

Well, where are the unicorns mentioned in the Bible?

Nowhere. Unicorns therefore do not exist, and are used as tools by Satan to confuse men.

No, I'm not making this up.

112 Girth  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:42:31pm

re: #99 Lidane

On another note, the Wingularity has somehow managed to divide by zero:

Now that's funny.

113 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:42:32pm

re: #105 darthstar

These guys used to come stay at our house when they toured in Northern California (they came from the same part of Ireland as my mom). Man those were some drunken evenings of song.


[Video]

Green alligators and long necked geese!

LOL, I love that song!

114 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:42:41pm

Going to see Avatar this weekend and was scanning the Yahoo user reviews and did not know it was a government sponsored movie./


"New World Order Propaganda :(
by Bud (movies profile) Dec 20, 2009
21 of 42 people found this review helpful

To bad such a beautiful film had to be nothing more than Government sponsored infomercial for the evils of industrialized society. I guess I am supposed to feel guilty about being an american instead of some tribal member in the wilderness. Well, when they fully de-industrialize the USA and we are living completely off the Government Welfare System, the next thing we can expect is the population control program that will kill off 80% of us commoners (another common theme in Hollywood these days). I am tired of all the big movies for the past few years being complete garbage with all the globalist (One World Government) slants. People dont drink the Kool-Aid and do some research about why Hollywood is showing you visually stuning movies that go entirely against everything The United States of Amercia was founded on (the Constitution)."

115 MandyManners  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:43:14pm

Speaking of large beasts, gotta' finish dinner and feed The Kid.

116 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:45:02pm

re: #111 SixDegrees

Nowhere. Unicorns therefore do not exist, and are used as tools by Satan to confuse men.

No, I'm not making this up.

"To think of the biblical unicorn as a fantasy animal is to demean God’s Word, which is true in every detail."

117 Jaerik  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:46:35pm

re: #102 HAL2010

"Which is why the Constitution is there. To protect the people from the people."

My 16 year old self would be so dissapointed with me right now, no doubt throwing Nozicks "Anarchy, State, Utopia" at my face and ranting about fascism.

It's okay. My 16 year old self was really into Ayn Rand.

118 SixDegrees  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:46:47pm
119 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:46:59pm

re: #114 avanti

Going to see Avatar this weekend and was scanning the Yahoo user reviews and did not know it was a government sponsored movie./

"New World Order Propaganda :(
by Bud (movies profile) Dec 20, 2009
21 of 42 people found this review helpful

To bad such a beautiful film had to be nothing more than Government sponsored infomercial for the evils of industrialized society. I guess I am supposed to feel guilty about being an american instead of some tribal member in the wilderness. Well, when they fully de-industrialize the USA and we are living completely off the Government Welfare System, the next thing we can expect is the population control program that will kill off 80% of us commoners (another common theme in Hollywood these days). I am tired of all the big movies for the past few years being complete garbage with all the globalist (One World Government) slants. People dont drink the Kool-Aid and do some research about why Hollywood is showing you visually stuning movies that go entirely against everything The United States of Amercia was founded on (the Constitution)."

Oh fer crying out loud. Want some cheese with your whine?


If you think that any corporation has your best interests even remotely in mind...then I want some of what you are smoking. In any event, right wing victim complaints are just as boring as left wing blather.

*yawn*

120 Jimmah  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:47:44pm

re: #114 avanti

I bet there were pyramids/triangles, and eyes in that movie - always such a giveaway.

121 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:47:56pm

re: #118 SixDegrees

Uh, oh - BIBLE FIGHT!!!

When Imaginations Collide...

(Which has historically gotten far too many people killed.)

122 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:49:09pm

re: #114 avanti

I'm curious as to why Celticdragon would down ding you for you clip and paste, considering you were only trying to show the silly side of some people, people who think that everything out of Hollywood has to be taken with some deep political message, instead of just enjoying the show.

Celtic Dragon, and reason for the down ding for Avanti?

123 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:49:22pm

re: #117 Jaerik

It's okay. My 16 year old self was really into Ayn Rand.

Yeah, that does seem to be a young adult thing. Usually, kids grow out of her eventually when they find out that human nature and reality don't work that way, and that her philosophy can be summed up as "I got mine, bee-yotch!!"

124 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:49:42pm

re: #119 celticdragon

Oh fer crying out loud. Want some cheese with your whine?

If you think that any corporation has your best interests even remotely in mind...then I want some of what you are smoking. In any event, right wing victim complaints are just as boring as left wing blather.

*yawn*

Avanti was not whining, he was pointing out some idiot who was whining.

You jerk.

125 HAL2010  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:50:16pm

re: #109 WindUpBird

Your 16 year old self was more studious than mine! I was busy trying to find all the Rainbow Worlds in Star Control 2.

Haha!
I was always more of a PC kind of guy!
Nozick was one of the first philosophers I ever really got into.

re: #117 Jaerik

It's okay. My 16 year old self was really into Ayn Rand.

And how I tried to be. Every time I tried to read Atlas Shrugged I would get halfway through and then forget how it began, and try to read it again, get halfway, forget once more. Never finished it.

126 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:50:25pm

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

I'm curious as to why Celticdragon would down ding you for you clip and paste, considering you were only trying to show the silly side of some people, people who think that everything out of Hollywood has to be taken with some deep political message, instead of just enjoying the show.

Celtic Dragon, and reason for the down ding for Avanti?

My bad. I misinterpreted the review for an actual statement from Avanti.

My apologies. :(

127 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:50:47pm

re: #123 celticdragon

Why did you down ding Avanti for his clip and paste from Yahoo?

128 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:51:18pm

re: #127 Walter L. Newton

Why did you down ding Avanti for his clip and paste from Yahoo?

My mistake.

129 SixDegrees  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:51:24pm

re: #119 celticdragon

Oh fer crying out loud. Want some cheese with your whine?

If you think that any corporation has your best interests even remotely in mind...then I want some of what you are smoking. In any event, right wing victim complaints are just as boring as left wing blather.

*yawn*

Even NPR's reviewer shared some of NWO-guy's misgivings about the film. But like pretty much everything else in the film - backstory, character development, actual plot - Cameron paints with a brush a mile wide and an inch deep, and focuses on non-stop action. And succeeds. I had no trouble suspending my disbelief during the film, or in shrugging off it's moments of saccharine ideology. They're there for the same reason all that other extraneous crap is there - to move the story along.

It's a Cameron film. I'm not going to waste a lot of time trying to analyze it.

130 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:51:37pm

re: #126 celticdragon

My bad. I misinterpreted the review for an actual statement from Avanti.

My apologies. :(

Reading is Comprehension. (what the fuck am I doing watching Avanti's back :)

131 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:52:10pm

Carl Sagan in 1996 in which he also managed to point out Rupert Murdoch's support for pseudo science:

I am critical of the excesses of theology, because at the extremes it is difficult to distinguish pseudoscience from rigid, doctrinaire religion. Nevertheless, I want to acknowledge at the outset the prodigious diversity and complexity of religious thought and practice over the millennia; the growth of liberal religion and ecumenical fellowship during the last century, and the fact that—as in the Protestant Reformation, the rise of Reform Judaism, Vatican II, and the so-called higher criticism of the Bible—religion has fought (with varying degrees of success) its own excesses. But in parallel to the many scientists who seem reluctant to debate or even publicly discuss pseudoscience, many proponents of mainstream religions are reluctant to take on extreme conservatives and fundamentalists. If the trend continues, eventually the field is theirs; they can win the debate by default.

132 Jimmah  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:52:34pm

re: #124 Walter L. Newton

Avanti was not whining, he was pointing out some idiot who was whining.

You jerk.

Hey! I think Celtic dragon made a misread of avanti's post - that does not amount to being a jerk.

133 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:52:35pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

Reading is Comprehension. (what the fuck am I doing watching Avanti's back :)

And pain medication is occasionally , er...intoxicating? I plead medication.

134 Girth  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:52:36pm

re: #129 SixDegrees

Even NPR's reviewer shared some of NWO-guy's misgivings about the film. But like pretty much everything else in the film - backstory, character development, actual plot - Cameron paints with a brush a mile wide and an inch deep, and focuses on non-stop action. And succeeds. I had no trouble suspending my disbelief during the film, or in shrugging off it's moments of saccharine ideology. They're there for the same reason all that other extraneous crap is there - to move the story along.

It's a Cameron film. I'm not going to waste a lot of time trying to analyze it.

I'm not going to waste a lot of time seeing it either.

135 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:53:05pm

I would love your opinions on a science argument.

I'd like to debunk a common canard that these guys pull out because it came up recently in my own life - and I was looking for a way to explain probabilities well, that really anyone could see. I think I came up with a good way to say it.

Some of the more sophisticated ID types will misuse probability arguments when looking at sequences of amino acids in proteins or sequences of RNA/DNA which is really the same thing since the genetic material codes for the amino acids.

Their flawed argument goes something like if I have something like 20 possible amino acids to fill a place in the chain, and a protein that was say 30 amino acids long, then getting that specific protein completely at random would be at odds of 1 in 20^30, or one in twenty to the thirtieth power.

It is true that given those circumstances there are 20^30 possible proteins that could be made. It is true that the one you are looking at is one of them. However, that does *not* mean that the odds of getting it were 1:20^30.

This is of course completely wrong, because it ignores conditional probabilities and selective processes. In math speak, it grossly overestimates the possible outcomes in the probability space. Now how to illustrate that?

Let's give the example of a happily married couple. Call them Sarah and Abe.

What are the odds that they got married?

You could start by saying well, there are six billion souls on the planet. Three billion are males. The odds of Sarah marrying Abe are one in three billion. This is exactly saying that there are three billion possible guys, and Sarah got one of them. It is exactly analogous to saying I picked one possible protein out of all the possibilities. Of course, that also assumes that all three billion guys have the same chance to marry Sarah, which is just wrong. It neglects her choices (which are of course, a form of selection).

Sarah is not going to marry a boy who is under or over a certain age. She is not going to marry someone who is already married. Right there, we have reduced the pool from three billion to at most 250 million. Abe's odds just got a lot better... But they get better than that - much better. Out of those men Sarah is not going to marry someone whom she is not attracted to. If he has the wrong religion or politics or whatever for her, he's out of the picture. If say Sarah is religious and Jewish, she is only going to look at religious Jewish men as possible husbands. The pool is now at most 100,000 single men of the right age - on the whole planet.

Again the analogy is that for certain proteins to arise, there must have been mutations in the codes that make them, however, if those mutations kill, then the proteins are out of the picture and so are any other proteins that would have depended on that first lethal mutation coming first.

But Abe's odds are even better than that. Sarah is not going to meet every possible Jewish man. She lives somewhere and only knows so many people and at the end of the day, is simply not going to meet everyone before she chooses someone.

In fact, the pool is probably only about 100 guys that she will meet (and even give the time of day to) before she chooses. Of those hundred, most get culled for other reasons. When you get down to it, ask any married woman, there was her husband, and one or two also rans, out of all her boy friends and different dating partners, who ever really had a shot of marrying her.

Abe's odds, rather than being one in three billion were really much better than that.

136 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:53:57pm

re: #84 MandyManners

I wonder what she would say if you asked her why dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the Bible.

I haven't had the nerve.
Honestly - I'm afraid if I started that conversation, it would go on for too many hours for my taste.

137 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:54:30pm

re: #129 SixDegrees

It's a Cameron film. I'm not going to waste a lot of time trying to analyze it.

Exactly. If someone enjoyed Aliens and T2 I'm pretty sure they'd like this since I didn't see much difference in his style. And his anti-corporate attitude was there, too. (And Paul Reiser was a much better token corporate jerk IMHO)

138 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:54:43pm

Notes from a thrift store furniture department worker...

Today I learned all about the pallet jack. It's amazing how much weight that thing can lift, just from a simple pumping of the handle. It's amazing how a pallet full of furniture glides along with almost no effort from me, rolling on the pallet jack. It's amazing how fucking hard it is to stop 500 pounds of furniture from gliding effortlessly into other coworkers if you are the only thing between the amazing pallet jack and the rest of the crew... my bad.

139 SixDegrees  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:54:55pm

re: #134 Girth

I'm not going to waste a lot of time seeing it either.

Actually, I highly recommend it. Like Cameron's Aliens, it will leave you physically exhausted by the time you leave. And it is stunningly gorgeous to look at. It's sort of the ultimate eye candy - pure entertainment.

140 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:55:18pm

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

Notes from a thrift store furniture department worker...

Today I learned all about the pallet jack. It's amazing how much weight that thing can lift, just from a simple pumping of the handle. It's amazing how a pallet full of furniture glides along with almost no effort from me, rolling on the pallet jack. It's amazing how fucking hard it is to stop 500 pounds of furniture from gliding effortlessly into other coworkers if you are the only thing between the amazing pallet jack and the rest of the crew... my bad.

uh-oh!
Do you still have a job?
Is everyone OK?

141 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:55:59pm

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

Um..okay.

142 Jaerik  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:56:01pm

re: #123 celticdragon

Yeah, that does seem to be a young adult thing. Usually, kids grow out of her eventually when they find out that human nature and reality don't work that way, and that her philosophy can be summed up as "I got mine, bee-yotch!!"

GQ (of all places) recently published the best beat-down of Ayn Rand and her books that I have ever read, anywhere.

143 Girth  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:56:17pm

re: #139 SixDegrees

Actually, I highly recommend it. Like Cameron's Aliens, it will leave you physically exhausted by the time you leave. And it is stunningly gorgeous to look at. It's sort of the ultimate eye candy - pure entertainment.

Eh, I never saw Titanic either.

144 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:56:27pm

re: #140 reine.de.tout

uh-oh!
Do you still have a job?
Is everyone OK?

Yep... the last part was sort of humor... but in general, the rest is true. Those suckers are dangerous.

145 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:56:35pm

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

I hope nobody was actually injured.

146 Randall Gross  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:57:08pm

re: #144 Walter L. Newton

Inertia

147 brookly red  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:57:17pm

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

Notes from a thrift store furniture department worker...

Today I learned all about the pallet jack. It's amazing how much weight that thing can lift, just from a simple pumping of the handle. It's amazing how a pallet full of furniture glides along with almost no effort from me, rolling on the pallet jack. It's amazing how fucking hard it is to stop 500 pounds of furniture from gliding effortlessly into other coworkers if you are the only thing between the amazing pallet jack and the rest of the crew... my bad.

note, please keep toes clear of lowering platelets...

148 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:57:21pm

re: #145 celticdragon

I hope nobody was actually injured.

I tried really hard, but no... the last part was a little thrift store humor...

149 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:58:18pm

re: #144 Walter L. Newton

Yep... the last part was sort of humor... but in general, the rest is true. Those suckers are dangerous.

Glad to hear everyone is OK.
My guess is you will figure it out next time before running into the crew.

150 HAL2010  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:58:20pm

Most general creationsist arguments (although how they spell them out vary) can be found, and debunked in the book by the Talk Origins guys. I can't remember the name of the book but their website is excellent.

151 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:58:24pm

re: #126 celticdragon

My bad. I misinterpreted the review for an actual statement from Avanti.

My apologies. :(

No biggie, but I did use the sarc tag.

152 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:58:25pm

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

Notes from a thrift store furniture department worker...

Today I learned all about the pallet jack. It's amazing how much weight that thing can lift, just from a simple pumping of the handle. It's amazing how a pallet full of furniture glides along with almost no effort from me, rolling on the pallet jack. It's amazing how fucking hard it is to stop 500 pounds of furniture from gliding effortlessly into other coworkers if you are the only thing between the amazing pallet jack and the rest of the crew... my bad.

Tomorrow we learn how to use the industrial sized trash compactor.

153 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:58:52pm

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

Notes from a thrift store furniture department worker...

Today I learned all about the pallet jack. It's amazing how much weight that thing can lift, just from a simple pumping of the handle. It's amazing how a pallet full of furniture glides along with almost no effort from me, rolling on the pallet jack. It's amazing how fucking hard it is to stop 500 pounds of furniture from gliding effortlessly into other coworkers if you are the only thing between the amazing pallet jack and the rest of the crew... my bad.

Ha! When I was in high school I worked for a hardware store...the pallet jack is an amazing tool, and it's also amazing how much damage a pallet full of steer manure can do to a patio display if you are running it down the aisle at full speed and accidentally turn the handle just a tiny bit!

154 Girth  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:58:54pm

re: #144 Walter L. Newton

Yep... the last part was sort of humor... but in general, the rest is true. Those suckers are dangerous.

Pallet jacks are great, but you need to get a hold of a forklift or a Bobcat for the real fun.

155 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:58:56pm

re: #146 Thanos

Inertia

That is why you never pull heavy rollaway toolboxes (like the big MAC or Snapon boxes). They will roll right over your ankles and break them in a heartbeat.

156 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:59:08pm

re: #139 SixDegrees

Actually, I highly recommend it. Like Cameron's Aliens, it will leave you physically exhausted by the time you leave. And it is stunningly gorgeous to look at. It's sort of the ultimate eye candy - pure entertainment.

It was a great movie. I have to agree.

157 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 3:59:29pm

re: #151 avanti

No biggie, but I did use the sarc tag.

Sorry about that. I missed the tag. :(

158 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:00:02pm

re: #157 celticdragon

Sorry about that. I missed the tag. :(

Jerk.

///

159 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:00:51pm

Hmm, nothing at The Panda's Thumb about this at the moment. They're usually on top of these issues. Maybe they'll do one of their signature in-depth treatments later.

160 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:00:58pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

Reading is Comprehension. (what the fuck am I doing watching Avanti's back :)

Walter, you could not help yourself, somewhere inside, you have a warm fuzzy part. :)

161 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:01:03pm

re: #158 JasonA

Jerk.

///

As you wish.

162 HAL2010  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:01:12pm

Skip my #150 and check out this book, the Counter-Creationism handbook.
A recommended buy for everyone.

163 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:02:15pm

re: #157 celticdragon

Sorry about that. I missed the tag. :(

I'm not losing sleep over it, I've done the same.

164 darthstar  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:03:06pm

re: #154 Girth

Pallet jacks are great, but you need to get a hold of a forklift or a Bobcat for the real fun.

We had two propane powered forklifts (converted Jeeps, actually) that we used to trailer around when moving our palletized bees (I spent a few years working for a beekeeper in Northern CA and Montana during my college hiatus in the early 90s). Those things could do 40 mph in reverse (reverse was three speeds, forward was one). Note: I don't recommend going over 5mph with two pallets of colonies (that's eight beehives) full of bees on a bumpy field. Clean up is a bitch, and I deserved every sting I got.

165 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:03:33pm

re: #160 avanti

Walter, you could not help yourself, somewhere inside, you have a warm fuzzy part. :)

Yea, I know... but I just hacked it up... hair ball!

166 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:03:34pm

Meet Boskops, the ancestor who was smarter than we were. Or maybe not.

167 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:04:30pm

Seems like you guys have this pretty much well in hand but let me just add my own two cents.

I think that there really needs to be more critical reasoning taught in schools. It got to the point where I could write a five paragraph essay on some book or other with my eyes close, but I can't think of any class that ever truly took the time to for example present us with a series of points of data and ask us to draw our own conclusions from it. Being taught something like that as kids would hopefully do a lot to help adults tell fact from fiction...

168 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:04:45pm

re: #135 ludwigvanquixote

I'd say using design space rather than probability space as the metaphor would help.

169 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:04:50pm

re: #152 Walter L. Newton

Tomorrow we learn how to use the industrial sized trash compactor.

Have they played any juvenile newbie pranks on you yet? Have you been sent to fetch the rack stretcher, for instance?

170 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:05:15pm

re: #168 Obdicut

I'd say using design space rather than probability space as the metaphor would help.

OK, only I never heard the word design space before :)

171 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:05:23pm

re: #163 avanti

I'm not losing sleep over it, I've done the same.

All the same, I am a bit embarrassed.

172 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:05:52pm

re: #167 jamesfirecat

Seems like you guys have this pretty much well in hand but let me just add my own two cents.

I think that there really needs to be more critical reasoning taught in schools. It got to the point where I could write a five paragraph essay on some book or other with my eyes close, but I can't think of any class that ever truly took the time to for example present us with a series of points of data and ask us to draw our own conclusions from it. Being taught something like that as kids would hopefully do a lot to help adults tell fact from fiction...

Dropping any thought of a deity or a creation process would work the best.

173 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:06:36pm

re: #139 SixDegrees

Actually, I highly recommend it. Like Cameron's Aliens, it will leave you physically exhausted by the time you leave. And it is stunningly gorgeous to look at. It's sort of the ultimate eye candy - pure entertainment.

The objection I had to Aliens (or maybe it was one of the other sequels) was all the dry ice vapor blowing everywhere. What, did the creatures gnaw through all the piping in the ship?

174 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:07:12pm

re: #169 The Sanity Inspector

Have they played any juvenile newbie pranks on you yet? Have you been sent to fetch the rack stretcher, for instance?

I'm 57 years old... and most of the crew are around my age, I think all that time for fun and games were over back in those days of working at the supermarket.

175 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:07:53pm

re: #171 celticdragon

Do you know, a ding can be reversed?
Click the opposite button once to reverse, twice to go another step.

176 Jimmah  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:07:57pm

re: #135 ludwigvanquixote

I remember one time Dawkins put in a nutshell, saying something along the lines that natural selection is a sieve that drives systems towards outcomes that are on the face of it statistically improbable.

177 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:08:28pm

re: #175 Floral Giraffe

Do you know, a ding can be reversed?
Click the opposite button once to reverse, twice to go another step.

Already did. Thanks.

178 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:09:07pm

re: #177 celticdragon

Cool, just wanted to make sure you knew!

179 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:09:10pm

re: #164 darthstar

We had two propane powered forklifts (converted Jeeps, actually) that we used to trailer around when moving our palletized bees (I spent a few years working for a beekeeper in Northern CA and Montana during my college hiatus in the early 90s). Those things could do 40 mph in reverse (reverse was three speeds, forward was one). Note: I don't recommend going over 5mph with two pallets of colonies (that's eight beehives) full of bees on a bumpy field. Clean up is a bitch, and I deserved every sting I got.

When I was in that Navy and young and stupid, I recall being in the bed of a Mike boat while they lowered a 6X6 truck into the well deck, trying to center it with the lines. As is would swing toward the edge of the bed, with me as a bumper, I'd jump out of the way and get back to work.

180 Four More Tears  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:10:05pm

re: #176 Jimmah

I remember one time Dawkins put in a nutshell, saying something along the lines that natural selection is a sieve that drives systems towards outcomes that are on the face of it statistically improbable.

Speaking of Dawkins, I finished The God Delusion this weekend. Having read Hitchens' God is not Great Dawkins seems downright respectful in comparison.

181 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:11:16pm

re: #39 Charles
Ah, got stuck on an important phone call so I'm late to respond.

Fair enough, your point is strongest I think in the context of fundamentalist Baptist and the like. Not pedantic at all really, given their recent extremes which of course depart from much of Christian tradition.

The Jewish tradition offered interesting perspectives on this when I asked around. I work for a Jewish family who are dear friends, and we talked about this at length. Their particular kids (one boy 11, one girl 16) separate religious lessons from science lessons. They learned to cope with the obvious conflict sensibly.

Adult orthodox Jews I have spoken to on this do the same, and tend to take the bible less literally in terms of cosmology than Baptist literalism. It's a bit dicey for the Orthodoxy, not so much for Reformed and Conservative branches. If I may generalize, the Jewish population seems to not suffer from the conflict much if at all. Perhaps these good people have shown us how to Religion and science can co exist, with minimum friction.

Charles thanks for exposing these idiots who exploit religion and children for political gain. Our right to practice our religion need not conflict with educating our kids or ourselves.

I know there are more than a few Jewish Lizards here, have I got this right?

182 avanti  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:11:59pm

re: #174 Walter L. Newton

I'm 57 years old... and most of the crew are around my age, I think all that time for fun and games were over back in those days of working at the supermarket.

I stood a full 4 hour "mail buoy" watch as a newbie on a gator Navy ship. To me, it make perfect sense that we'd get our mail from those mid ocean mail buoys. :)

183 Cheechako  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:12:07pm

re: #138 Walter L. Newton

Notes from a thrift store furniture department worker...

Today I learned all about the pallet jack. It's amazing how much weight that thing can lift, just from a simple pumping of the handle. It's amazing how a pallet full of furniture glides along with almost no effort from me, rolling on the pallet jack. It's amazing how fucking hard it is to stop 500 pounds of furniture from gliding effortlessly into other coworkers if you are the only thing between the amazing pallet jack and the rest of the crew... my bad.


aah...Walter...they forgot to add brakes to pallet jacks. You can pull the release lever on the handle to drop the pallet onto the floor to stop it.

184 aagcobb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:13:32pm

re: #11 SixDegrees

Per the thread downstairs: how about having the challenge heard by someone who actually knows what science is? Like, for example, the American Academy for the Advancement of Science? Or the National Science Foundation? You know, like, experts in the field.

I have no doubt at all that either of these organizations would be happy to help review science curriculum materials.

Can't have that. Science is just an atheistic conspiracy to deny God, because scientists are moral degenerates who want to have guilt free orgies. /sarc

185 EastSider  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:14:07pm

Does anyone else think its hilarious that the same people who decry a non-existent attempt to push social agendas into school curricula? (see: Gay Marriage) are objectively and proudly attempting to push social agendas into school curricula?

/sigh, hypocrisy.

186 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:15:54pm

re: #184 aagcobb

Can't have that. Science is just an atheistic conspiracy to deny God, because scientists are moral degenerates who want to have guilt free orgies. /sarc

Really... who said that?

187 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:19:32pm

re: #176 Jimmah

I remember one time Dawkins put in a nutshell, saying something along the lines that natural selection is a sieve that drives systems towards outcomes that are on the face of it statistically improbable.

And that is exactly the point. The confusion comes from misunderstanding what is actually possible given the constraints of the system.

If a mutation kills, then it is out of the picture. If a certain protein would arise from a certain starting point through say 5 mutations, but the first mutation killed, then all things that might arise from subsequent mutations don't happen and can't happen.

188 HAL2010  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:19:49pm

re: #185 EastSider

Does anyone else think its hilarious that the same people who decry a non-existent attempt to push social agendas into school curricula? (see: Gay Marriage) are objectively and proudly attempting to push social agendas into school curricula?

/sigh, hypocrisy.

The RNC believes in small government. Small enough to fit into your bedroom.

189 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:20:41pm

re: #187 ludwigvanquixote

Have you read Darwin's Dangerous Dream yet? Dennett I really do think addresses this problem well with his Design Space idea, especially the idea of forced moves in design space.

190 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:21:31pm

re: #188 HAL2010

The RNC believes in small government. Small enough to fit into your bedroom.

Agreed... and the rest of the house is taken care of by the left... the garage (what kind of car you drive)... the bathroom (what kind of flush toilets you have)... the living room (what kind of light bulbs you are burning)... the kitchen (what kind of fats you are eating)... between the left and the right... big brother is certainly watching you.

191 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:24:10pm

re: #189 Obdicut

Have you read Darwin's Dangerous Dream yet? Dennett I really do think addresses this problem well with his Design Space idea, especially the idea of forced moves in design space.

I haven't read it. I'm sure it is a great book though. If calling the probability space of all possible mutations, design space, helps to key people into the same mathematical idea, then I certainly can't argue with that. My training though tends to make me use math speak when talking about mathematics.

192 HAL2010  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:25:25pm

re: #190 Walter L. Newton

Agreed... and the rest of the house is taken care of by the left... the garage (what kind of car you drive)... the bathroom (what kind of flush toilets you have)... the living room (what kind of light bulbs you are burning)... the kitchen (what kind of fats you are eating)... between the left and the right... big brother is certainly watching you.

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right, Here I am, stuck in the middle with you. At LGF.

193 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:25:55pm

re: #191 ludwigvanquixote

I don't have the time and the mental faculties to detail now why I feel it would be good-- I just found out my awesome, kick-ass boss is leaving the company and I'm scattered. If you email me at my username here at gmail, I can try to provide you with an explanation of why I think it's a good idea to use over the next few days.

194 Jimmah  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:27:31pm

re: #187 ludwigvanquixote

And that is exactly the point. The confusion comes from misunderstanding what is actually possible given the constraints of the system.

If a mutation kills, then it is out of the picture. If a certain protein would arise from a certain starting point through say 5 mutations, but the first mutation killed, then all things that might arise from subsequent mutations don't happen and can't happen.

Yes. The logic of natural selection is beautifully simple, really. It seems to me that you would have to really really want to disbelieve it in order to fail to see that.

195 Kewalo  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:28:30pm

re: #142 Jaerik

Thank you so much! I have been totally stunned that there are people over 25 that thinks her philosophy is any good. It's just mind boggling.

As far as I'm concerned it's right up there with the invisible hand that guides the economy.

196 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:29:42pm

re: #194 Jimmah

Yes. The logic of natural selection is beautifully simple, really. It seems to me that you would have to really really want to disbelieve it in order to fail to see that.

And there we have the issue. A denier, by definition really sees mathematics and science as belief systems that can be chosen, rather than facts that can not be ignored.

I frequently use the analogy that you don't choose to believe that 2+3 = 5. It actually, really is that way, whatever you think about it.

197 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:31:07pm

re: #194 Jimmah

Yes. The logic of natural selection is beautifully simple, really. It seems to me that you would have to really really want to disbelieve it in order to fail to see that.

So beautifully simple that it bothers me that anyone would want to try to bring a deity into the process in any way or form.

198 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:33:19pm

re: #190 Walter L. Newton

I would rather have a car that had a safety mandate attached than be told what i can do in my bedroom or who i can marry.

Flat out no choice for me.

199 HAL2010  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:36:17pm

re: #198 wozzablog

I would rather have a car that had a safety mandate attached than be told what i can do in my bedroom or who i can marry.

Flat out no choice for me.

I would argue that latter is a direct infringement of your rights, the former a form of collective, non-punitive form of protection. But then again, I am a fan of Hayek.

200 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:37:05pm

re: #198 wozzablog

I would rather have a car that had a safety mandate attached than be told what i can do in my bedroom or who i can marry.

Flat out no choice for me.

Of course you would... I don't want anyone telling me what car I can drive or who I can fuck, or what food I should eat or how many people I want in my bed with me...

You, you are willing to settle for second best on this topic... go for it. In the area of personal freedoms, I'm so much further left of you that you look like a Christian.

201 The Curmudgeon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:37:12pm

Ha! I had posted about this at my place, and later I check in over here to see what's going on. I discover that Charles has posted about the same subject, but I scooped him by about three minutes. Fear me!

202 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:37:46pm

re: #201 The Curmudgeon

Ha! I had posted about this at my place, and later I check in over here to see what's going on. I discover that Charles has posted about the same subject, but I scooped him by about three minutes. Fear me!

Big whoop!

203 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:39:54pm

re: #200 Walter L. Newton

Yes, the lesser of two evils argument has never appealed to me.

204 Silvergirl  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:39:57pm

re: #202 Walter L. Newton

Big whoop!

Oh c'mon. The "fear me" was solid funny.

205 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:41:23pm

re: #204 Silvergirl

Oh c'mon. The "fear me" was solid funny.

It was a pun? I thought we all feared curmudgeon

206 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:42:08pm

re: #204 Silvergirl

Oh c'mon. The "fear me" was solid funny.

Hey, it's a Curmudgeon, it/he/her should love my reply.

207 The Curmudgeon  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:43:15pm

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

Hey, it's a Curmudgeon, it/he/her should love my reply.

I'm usually too grumpy for that. It's the curmudgeonly way.

208 Bagua  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:44:37pm

If you don't get grumpy as you grow older you're not paying attention.

209 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:44:52pm

re: #184 aagcobb

Can't have that. Science is just an atheistic conspiracy to deny God, because scientists are moral degenerates who want to have guilt free orgies. /sarc

and creationists are moral degenerates who want to have forgivable orgies?

210 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:45:01pm

re: #203 Bagua

Yes, the lesser of two evils argument has never appealed to me.

And of course, my comment was meant to make a point. For some folk, it doesn't matter what their side is doing, even if it totally goes against their every fiber... the left could be looking up Wozzablog anus with a web cam every night before he/she/it goes to bed, but as long as it was Wozzablog's side doing it... it would be fine.

I know you got my point... and so did Wozzablog.

211 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:48:15pm

re: #200 Walter L. Newton

In Europe you can buy a car that'll flip as soon as look at a corner or compress your liver and spleen into sardines in the event of a fender bender - there is freedom of choice of whether or not to buy a car that'll kill you.I don't mind that at all. I'd choose a 5 star saftey rated car - as i value my life and those of my loved ones. The phenom of super safe cars is in response to mandated crash tests - i don't mind that one bit either.

One party wants safety standards and one party wants a constitutional amendment banning the loving marriage between two people. Thats just the way of things. Choosing to acknowledge there is a status quo is just how i roll, i am "reality based".

212 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:49:47pm

re: #210 Walter L. Newton

uh-huh.

213 aagcobb  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 4:58:17pm

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Fundie whackos on a site called carm (christian apologetics and research ministry).

214 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 5:35:55pm

re: #181 Rightwingconspirator

I think that you more or less have it right.

There is a small subset of the orthodox who sound disturbingly like the ID crowd.

However, even amongst the orthodox, Jewish tradition in engaging the scripture has always been different from the literalism that you were speaking of.

We have understood for thousands of years that biblical verses have deep metaphors and hidden meanings associated with them. Some of them can not possibly make sense without some additional material to explain them. That is what the oral tradition is for. An example of that is no milk and meat. Torah Hebrew has no vowels. The word for milk and the word for fat differ by a vowel. So is is no milk and meat or no meat and fat? There is no way at all to tell from the text. The point is that we have a deeply established tradition of not just taking the text at face value.

Another great example is the verse that G-d took the children of Israel out of Egypt with a mighty hand. Since we believe that G-d is incorporeal, it follows immediately that we do not believe that the verse is referring to a literal giant glowing hand in the sky, but rather is a metaphor for G-d's power.

That said, if you get into a religion and science discussion even with orthodox Jews, you are frankly dealing with a different set of rules than you would with those who take the words only at face value.

215 Bingo.Long  Tue, Jan 5, 2010 6:18:24pm

re: #76 WindUpBird

I had a cthulhu fish On my old beater Toyota. Didn't get me any free stuff, though :D

You're lucky, considering the free things Cthulhu might think were fun!
(If you haven't already, type "Boss cthulhu" into a google image search & check out the funny wallpaper that comes up...)


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