TeaBagCon: Tom Tancredo Suggests Reinstating ‘Literacy Tests’ for Voters

Politics • Views: 6,602

On the first night of the first National Tea Party Convention the featured speaker, Tom Tancredo, blew the racist dog whistle so loudly they heard it in Alabama.

In the 1960s.

The opening-night speaker at first ever National Tea Party Convention ripped into President Obama, Sen. John McCain and “the cult of multiculturalism,” asserting that Obama was elected because “we do not have a civics, literacy test before people can vote in this country.”

Here’s a little background information on the history of the “literacy tests” Tom Tancredo suggests we should reinstate.

As used by the states, the literacy test gained infamy as a means for denying suffrage to African Americans. Adopted by a number of southern states, the literacy test was applied in a patently unfair manner, as it was used to disfranchise many literate southern blacks while allowing many illiterate southern whites to vote. The literacy test, combined with other discriminatory requirements, effectively disfranchised the vast majority of African Americans in the South from the 1890s until the 1960s. Southern states abandoned the literacy test only when forced to by federal legislation in the 1960s. In 1964, the Civil Rights Act provided that literacy tests used as a qualification for voting in federal elections be administered wholly in writing and only to persons who had not completed six years of formal education. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 suspended the use of literacy tests in all states or political subdivisions in which less than 50 percent of the voting age residents were registered as of 1 November 1964, or had voted in the 1964 presidential election. In a series of cases, the Supreme Court upheld the legislation and restricted the use of literacy tests for non-English-speaking citizens. Since the passage of the civil rights legislation of the 1960s, black registration in the South has increased dramatically.

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350 comments
1 Soap_Man  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:26:59am

Can we have an "asshole test" too? Because then this Tancredo character might never have been elected either.

2 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:28:13am

I wonder if he really thinks that the Tea Party types would do well on those kinds of tests. Most of them I've read about have been pretty weak on civics and history.

Oh, and this is absolutely contemptible, of course. Not only is it clearly calling people who voted for Obama idiots, it's very suggestion shows a complete ignorance of civics. I think it actually counts as ironic.

3 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:28:15am

re: #1 Soap_Man

Can we have an "asshole test" too? Because then this Tancredo character might never have been elected either.

You do that, and there'll be nobody in Congress or in any elected office higher than, say, alderman.

4 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:31:50am

They are also blaming imigrants for the "most" of America's problems including the cost of healthcare.....
Tancredo: Tea Party Movement Can Learn From Anti-Immigrant Amnesty Fight

Roy Beck, the executive director of Numbers USA, made the case that stopping illegal immigration was the key to solving most of America’s economic problems. “We imported the health care crisis!” said Beck. “Every year we import one to one and a half million immigrants, and most of them go on welfare.” Beck provided cards with graphs that purported to show how illegal immigration was at the root of America’s biggest problems

5 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:31:55am

There should be literacy tests for politicians. Maybe there already are, and everyone who flunks goes on to become a politician.

6 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:32:35am

re: #2 Obdicut

I wonder if he really thinks that the Tea Party types would do well on those kinds of tests. Most of them I've read about have been pretty weak on civics and history.

Oh, and this is absolutely contemptible, of course. Not only is it clearly calling people who voted for Obama idiots, it's very suggestion shows a complete ignorance of civics. I think it actually counts as ironic.

The raw story link I gave upthread gives a little background on the literacy tests. They were supposed to be selected at random, but they would give the hardest ones to black voters routinely. There are sample questions there. Anyone could be made to fail it.

Also in some places the tests would then be reviewed privately by 3 'examiners', -- who could judge a white voter 'qualified' even if he answered every question wrong, and could judge a black voter 'unqualified' even if he answered every one right.

So I don't think there's anything at all ironic about Tancredo's proposal. He really does mean what he's saying, and what he's saying is that people who don't vote the way he would like aren't qualified to vote.

7 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:32:36am

re: #3 Guanxi88

You do that, and there'll be nobody in Congress or in any elected office higher than, say, alderman.

There'd be no aldermen either, where me and Soap live. We're both in Cook County.

8 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:32:40am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

Whereas I just blame immigrants for America's existence.

9 darthstar  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:32:56am

re: #2 Obdicut

I wonder if he really thinks that the Tea Party types would do well on those kinds of tests. Most of them I've read about have been pretty weak on civics and history.

Oh, and this is absolutely contemptible, of course. Not only is it clearly calling people who voted for Obama idiots, it's very suggestion shows a complete ignorance of civics. I think it actually counts as ironic.

I think Tancredo's suggestion only applies to minorities. He's just blowing the racist dog-whistle for the teabaggers.

10 Soap_Man  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:33:03am

re: #2 Obdicut

I wonder if he really thinks that the Tea Party types would do well on those kinds of tests. Most of them I've read about have been pretty weak on civics and history.

Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be

11 brookly red  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:33:23am

re: #5 Alouette

There should be literacy tests for politicians. Maybe there already are, and everyone who flunks goes on to become a politician.

/you actually want them to read the bills? wtf is next pay their taxes?

12 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:33:52am

re: #6 iceweasel

The raw story link I gave upthread


Sorry, that should have been 'downstairs', in the previous thread.

13 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:34:11am

What was that the GOP was saying about the need to attract more voters?

Good luck with that.

14 Soap_Man  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:34:33am

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

There'd be no aldermen either, where me and Soap live. We're both in Cook County.

Yeah, you have to go even lower around here. Probably all the way down to library boards.

15 akarra  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:34:52am

Tancredo is very crazy, and it is sad that he has any legitimacy. He's done his best to burn bridges:

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

16 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:35:22am

re: #10 Soap_Man

Seriously. Given that the Supreme Court has resoundingly rejected these sorts of tests, doesn't suggesting them show that Tancredo would fail a test of civics?

17 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:35:46am

re: #15 akarra

Tancredo is very crazy, and it is sad that he has any legitimacy. He's done his best to burn bridges:

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

He ain't just burning bridges, he's napalming them.

18 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:36:04am

re: #2 Obdicut

I wonder if he really thinks that the Tea Party types would do well on those kinds of tests. Most of them I've read about have been pretty weak on civics and history.

Oh, and this is absolutely contemptible, of course. Not only is it clearly calling people who voted for Obama idiots, it's very suggestion shows a complete ignorance of civics. I think it actually counts as ironic.

Most Americans are weak on history and civics. Don't mistake LGF for the norm. Anyone who is a regular commenter here is unusually well informed about politics. A person of average knowledge wouldn't be able to keep up.

19 cliffster  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:37:32am

re: #16 Obdicut

Seriously. Given that the Supreme Court has resoundingly rejected these sorts of tests, doesn't suggesting them show that Tancredo would fail a test of civics sanity?

fixed

20 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:38:14am

re: #2 Obdicut

I wonder if he really thinks that the Tea Party types would do well on those kinds of tests. Most of them I've read about have been pretty weak on civics and history.

Oh, and this is absolutely contemptible, of course. Not only is it clearly calling people who voted for Obama idiots, it's very suggestion shows a complete ignorance of civics. I think it actually counts as ironic.

Good point.

21 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:38:15am

re: #17 Varek Raith

He ain't just burning bridges, he's napalming them.

Not even that: He's launching nukes with cobalt jackets. The fallout from his antics will poison relations between those who embrace him and recent immigrants and their decedents for decades.

22 Neutral President  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:38:51am

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

Most Americans are weak on history and civics. Don't mistake LGF for the norm. Anyone who is a regular commenter here is unusually well informed about politics. A person of average knowledge wouldn't be able to keep up.

The past of LGF is riddled with the carcasses of the damned banned who couldn't keep up.

23 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:38:55am

re: #15 akarra

Tancredo is very crazy, and it is sad that he has any legitimacy. He's done his best to burn bridges:

And apparently crosses on people's front lawns as well....

24 RogueOne  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:39:28am

The easiest fix to get rid of the moron vote is to take the party affiliation off of the ballot.

25 brookly red  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:39:45am

...only to persons who had not completed six years of formal education.

Interesting...
I wounder how this will sit with the home schoolers?

26 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:39:55am

Then there was the patriotic Texan from Texas who felt that people of means-- decent folk-- should be given more votes than drifters, whores, degenerates, criminals, atheists and indecent folk-- people without means.
Catch 22, Joseph Heller

Has Tancredo suggested yet that Obama should only have 3/5 of a veto?

27 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:40:25am

Breitbart's site "Big Journalism" is amazing right now. It's the biggest tantrum I've ever seen.

28 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:40:50am

re: #22 ArchangelMichael

The past of LGF is riddled with the carcasses of the damned banned who couldn't keep up.

Could you please you post your BSG nuke vid as a reply to my #21?

29 cliffster  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:40:58am

re: #22 ArchangelMichael

The past of LGF is riddled with the carcasses of the damned banned who couldn't keep up.

I'll argue with that. Couldn't control their emotions is more appropriate

30 Neutral President  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:41:21am

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Not even that: He's launching nukes with cobalt jackets. The fallout from his antics will poison relations between those who embrace him and recent immigrants and their decedents for decades.

"Blessed be the Bomb Everlasting and the Holy Fallout."

/damndirtyapes

31 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:41:51am

Tell you what, instead of having a civics test for voters, let have one for the people we elect to vote.

Anyone who can't get simple information like "FDR's big government spending helped us out of the Great Depression" and "Regan raised taxes" or "Nixon founded the EPA" or "tax cuts only generate revenue if you're on the downward slope of the Laffer Curve" should be automatically disqualified from holding a position like Senator or Congressman.

32 cliffster  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:42:13am

re: #26 iceweasel

that's pretty bad

33 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:42:27am

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

I know. It's sad. I work with highly educated people, but they're specialized, and they know very little about key parts of US history. People have such a vague idea about how women got votes, for example, and just how volatile, angry, and stupid that fight got at times. It's often presented as brave women pushing forwards and being recognized for their gutsiness, whereas it was generations of women being told they were sinning damned sluts for even suggesting such a thing, before it got anywhere.

I think the lack of knowledge of our own history really, really underlies a lot of the political problems we're having today. The lack of understanding of how our government has worked and changed over time. The lack of understanding of the development of the market and the relationship between labor and management.

And of course, in subject of race relations. We both paint the sides as far too black and white-- people who weren't racist vs. people who were-- we mainly paint it in terms of the minority groups fighting for their rights on their own, instead of in the context of larger social movements.

Oh, I could go on...

Is that enough, Mr. Tancredo? Do I get to vote now, you po-faced bastard?

34 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:42:45am

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Not even that: He's launching nukes with cobalt jackets. The fallout from his antics will poison relations between those who embrace him and recent immigrants and their decedents for decades.

Not a nuke, but...

35 Neutral President  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:42:55am

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Not even that: He's launching nukes with cobalt jackets. The fallout from his antics will poison relations between those who embrace him and recent immigrants and their decedents for decades.

So let it be done:

36 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:43:51am

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Which is now added to the long list of why I'm glad they are getting called out and why I am not on bit worried they will get real traction. Hell, in an atmosphere that claims Voter ID is disenfranchising (a laughable lie) this is just verbal bomb posturing.

37 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:44:09am

re: #17 Varek Raith

He ain't just burning bridges, he's napalming them.

Thermite, even better than napalm!

38 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:44:10am

re: #22 ArchangelMichael

The past of LGF is riddled with the carcasses of the damned banned who couldn't keep up.

Even most of The Banned have been better informed than the norm. It was usually their refusal to apply such knowledge and act decently that earned them the stick. Charles, in my experience, has always worked to give the ignorant here the knowledge they need to grow. It's the assholes and the willfully ignorant who end up getting the heave-ho.

39 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:45:39am

re: #35 ArchangelMichael

So let it be done:


[Video]

Thank you.

40 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:46:13am

re: #31 jamesfirecat

Tell you what, instead of having a civics test for voters, let have one for the people we elect to vote.

Anyone who can't get simple information like "FDR's big government spending helped us out of the Great Depression" and "Regan raised taxes" or "Nixon founded the EPA" or "tax cuts only generate revenue if you're on the downward slope of the Laffer Curve" should be automatically disqualified from holding a position like Senator or Congressman.

That would require a lie detector, not a civics test. Willfully lying to the people.

41 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:46:50am

Repeat from last thread:

I found this yesterday, which pretty much cemented for me that Tom Tancredo is an idiot.

42 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:47:26am

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

Which is now added to the long list of why I'm glad they are getting called out and why I am not on bit worried they will get real traction. Hell, in an atmosphere that claims Voter ID is disenfranchising (a laughable lie) this is just verbal bomb posturing.

The problem is that the loons Tancredo is riling up may actually plant some bombs.

43 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:47:29am

This is the first I've heard of such a thing. Do forgive my ignorance, but how would this (see quote below) look on paper?

"as it was used to disfranchise many literate southern blacks while allowing many illiterate southern whites to vote. "

That is, what kinds of questions were asked to produce the above result?

44 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:48:09am

re: #32 cliffster

that's pretty bad

There's been plenty of rhetoric from plenty of people questioning Obama's legitimacy, even going so far as to still, even now, question his citizenship. I'm not even going to get into the racism of the teabaggers which has been amply documented here.

I respectfully suggest you save your condemnation not for Joseph Heller, nor my snark, but for Tancredo and others like him.

45 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:48:27am

re: #40 Stanley Sea

That would require a lie detector, not a civics test. Willfully lying to the people.

Well if we can get them to write down the facts and then make it clear that if they "conveniently forget them" at any point in time, they will be kicked out of office, a special election will be held, and they will not be able to run for public office again for the next 12 years.

I'm probably going too far with this but damn it the first amendment doesn't entitle people to their own facts!

46 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:49:36am

Tancredo is anti-immigration.

I think he's wants the literacy test that are presently used to gain citizenship used for voting.

Citizens should be able to vote. Period.

47 subsailor68  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:49:45am

re: #31 jamesfirecat

"FDR's big government spending helped us out of the Great Depression"

To be fair, there is disagreement among economists and economic historians about that, with the consensus seeming to be that it didn't work particularly well. There are two very readable books on this:

"The Forgotten Man" - Amity Schlaes
"New Deal or Raw Deal" - Burton Fulsom, Jr.

And, there's Henry Morgenthau's admission (FDR's best friend and Secretary of the Treasury):

We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work ... After eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... And an enormous debt to boot!

(paraphrased from a letter written in the late 30's - after, as he notes, eight years of the FDR administration)

48 Neutral President  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:50:26am

re: #39 Dark_Falcon

Thank you.

This one is pretty cool too. From the game that sucked away all my free time the past 2 weeks or so.

49 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:50:28am

re: #43 eclectic infidel

This is the first I've heard of such a thing. Do forgive my ignorance, but how would this (see quote below) look on paper?

"as it was used to disfranchise many literate southern blacks while allowing many illiterate southern whites to vote. "

That is, what kinds of questions were asked to produce the above result?

They had special 'review boards' that could adjudicate a white voter as 'qualified' even if he failed every question, and judge a black one as 'unqualified' even if he answered every single one right.
The 'test' was never anything more than a fiction designed to disenfranchise black people (and in some cases Latinos).

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:51:29am

re: #2 Obdicut

I wonder if he really thinks that the Tea Party types would do well on those kinds of tests. Most of them I've read about have been pretty weak on civics and history.

Oh, and this is absolutely contemptible, of course. Not only is it clearly calling people who voted for Obama idiots, it's very suggestion shows a complete ignorance of civics. I think it actually counts as ironic.

That was something I was wondering about as well--my impression is that the Tea Party folks are no better informed about civics than the average guy on the street, and some of them seem almost comically ignorant.

Also, if he hates McCain, who does he think WOULD have become President if we were all wise men?

51 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:51:46am

re: #43 eclectic infidel

This is the first I've heard of such a thing. Do forgive my ignorance, but how would this (see quote below) look on paper?

"as it was used to disfranchise many literate southern blacks while allowing many illiterate southern whites to vote. "

That is, what kinds of questions were asked to produce the above result?

What color are you?

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:52:07am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

They are also blaming imigrants for the "most" of America's problems including the cost of healthcare...
Tancredo: Tea Party Movement Can Learn From Anti-Immigrant Amnesty Fight

Oh, that's old.

53 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:52:37am

re: #49 iceweasel

Thank you. That system is aggressively racist.

54 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:52:38am

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist


Also, if he hates McCain, who does he think WOULD have become President if we were all wise men?


Himself, of course.

55 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:52:40am

re: #47 subsailor68

"FDR's big government spending helped us out of the Great Depression"

To be fair, there is disagreement among economists and economic historians about that, with the consensus seeming to be that it didn't work particularly well. There are two very readable books on this:

"The Forgotten Man" - Amity Schlaes
"New Deal or Raw Deal" - Burton Fulsom, Jr.

And, there's Henry Morgenthau's admission (FDR's best friend and Secretary of the Treasury):

We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work ... After eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... And an enormous debt to boot!

(paraphrased from a letter written in the late 30's - after, as he notes, eight years of the FDR administration)

If it didn't work then what did end the Great Depression?

WW2?

56 cliffster  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:53:05am

re: #46 Ben Hur

Tancredo is anti-immigration.

I think he's wants the literacy test that are presently used to gain citizenship used for voting.

Citizens should be able to vote. Period.

Yep. And suggesting otherwise because you think they made a foolish choice is just silly. If people vote foolishly, they get governed accordingly. The Constitution is there to protect people from oppression by the government. You can't protect people from themselves.

57 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:53:28am

re: #45 jamesfirecat

Well if we can get them to write down the facts and then make it clear that if they "conveniently forget them" at any point in time, they will be kicked out of office, a special election will be held, and they will not be able to run for public office again for the next 12 years.

I'm probably going too far with this but damn it the first amendment doesn't entitle people to their own facts!

Agreed. That's why the way the Fellowship's members used "The Pink Swastika" to push anti-gay legislation in Uganda caught my ire so much. The book isn't even revisionism: It's a blatant lie. But most people know so little history that scumbags can slip lies like that past them. Then, if someone like iceweasel, albusteve, or myself tries to answer back with the truth, we get called liars by people who insist on forcing the facts through their ideological lens. It drives me nuts.

58 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:54:26am

BBL

59 darthstar  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:54:35am

re: #27 Charles

Breitbart's site "Big Journalism" is amazing right now. It's the biggest tantrum I've ever seen.

Hey, they've got a picture of a black guy on their site! See? The whole O'Keefe/White Supremacist thing is all a big misunderstanding.
/////

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:54:35am

re: #6 iceweasel

The raw story link I gave upthread gives a little background on the literacy tests. They were supposed to be selected at random, but they would give the hardest ones to black voters routinely. There are sample questions there. Anyone could be made to fail it.

Also in some places the tests would then be reviewed privately by 3 'examiners', -- who could judge a white voter 'qualified' even if he answered every question wrong, and could judge a black voter 'unqualified' even if he answered every one right.

So I don't think there's anything at all ironic about Tancredo's proposal. He really does mean what he's saying, and what he's saying is that people who don't vote the way he would like aren't qualified to vote.

Old joke. A black man goes to register to vote. The registrar gives him a newspaper in Chinese, and asks him to read from it. The man looks at it for some time, and says, "I admit I can't read it all, but I can read the headline."

"Huh?" says the registrar. "OK. Read the headline."

"Headline says this is one n***** that won't be voting this year.

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:55:03am

re: #8 Obdicut

Whereas I just blame immigrants for America's existence.

A krenk af Columbus!

62 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:55:14am

The party of No says No to everything

Sen. Shelby puts hold on all Obama nominees

Sen. Richard Shelby (R-Ala.) on Thursday placed a blanket hold on all of President Barack Obama's nominees before the Senate, according to the office of Majority Leader Harry Reid.

Shelby's holds mean that the Senate cannot vote on a nominee unless the hold is broken using a cloture vote that requires 60 senators or if the senator lifts the hold.

63 subsailor68  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:55:30am

re: #55 jamesfirecat

If it didn't work then what did end the Great Depression?

WW2?

Hi jamesfirecat! Great question. Yes, many economists seem to think that the economic turnaround was at least partly due to ramp up production even prior to our entry after Pearl Harbor. (Think of stuff like war material provided to Britain early on - even though it wasn't exactly authorized by Congress.)

However, I'd wager you and I would both much prefer a different kinda' stimulus than global conflagration.

;-)

64 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:55:47am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

The party of No says No to everything

Sen. Shelby puts hold on all Obama nominees

No up or down vote???
;)

65 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:56:33am

re: #49 iceweasel

They had special 'review boards' that could adjudicate a white voter as 'qualified' even if he failed every question, and judge a black one as 'unqualified' even if he answered every single one right.
The 'test' was never anything more than a fiction designed to disenfranchise black people (and in some cases Latinos).

You know what's particularly sick and disgusting? It's Black history month. I'm so sick of this racist piece of shit I could spit.

[Link: www.usm.edu...]

Prior to the Voting Rights Act of 1965, Blacks were often asked questions like "how many bubbles in a bar of soap." Things no one could possibly answer.

Civil rights activist Ruby Magee noted that during one voting rights trial, Attorney General John Doar used "copies of literacy tests taken by white people and copies . . . taken by black people and showed where some white illiterates had been allowed to register, whereas they had not been able to find any mistakes on [her] test and [she] had not been allowed to register."

66 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:57:02am

re: #59 darthstar

Hey, they've got a picture of a black guy on their site! See? The whole O'Keefe/White Supremacist thing is all a big misunderstanding.
///

Hey, there's more! The source of the Salon story has backtracked and published an article "correcting" the story:

[Link: washingtonindependent.com...]


READ///////////////.//////////////

67 Lidane  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:57:02am
68 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:57:04am

re: #64 Varek Raith

Not till Sen Shelby gets a cookie.

69 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:57:53am

This is a very difficult question for me.

1. I do want everyone to vote.

2. I also want everyone to be required to have a basic understanding of what they are voting for.

But, since I'll never get number two; I'll settle for number one.

70 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:58:10am

re: #67 Lidane

LOL!

71 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:58:20am

re: #67 Lidane

"Get a Brain! Morans"

This one will NEVER get old. *grins*

72 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:59:10am

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist

That was something I was wondering about as well--my impression is that the Tea Party folks are no better informed about civics than the average guy on the street, and some of them seem almost comically ignorant.

Also, if he hates McCain, who does he think WOULD have become President if we were all wise men?

He only hates McCain because he's more liberal on immigration issues and that's all what Tancredo is about. Keeping immigrants outa this country.

Funny that, his family is from the old country. That would be Italy.

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 10:59:14am

re: #56 cliffster

Yep. And suggesting otherwise because you think they made a foolish choice is just silly. If people vote foolishly, they get governed accordingly. The Constitution is there to protect people from oppression by the government. You can't protect people from themselves.

It's all of a piece with the rest of this Tea Party business. The belief that the system has rotted at the core because the other guy got in.

74 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:00:04am

re: #53 eclectic infidel

Thank you. That system is aggressively racist.

This site (which I am not familiar with and can't vouch for) says the following:


The registration procedures, and the Registrars who enforced them, were just one part of this interlocking system of racial discrimination and oppression.
(snip)
The Alabama Application Form and oaths you had to take were four pages long. It was designed to intimidate and threaten. You had to swear that your answers to every single question were true under penalty of perjury. And you knew that the information you entered on the form would be passed on to the Citizens Council and KKK.

Many counties used what they called the "voucher system." This meant that you had to have someone who was already a registered voter "vouch" for you — under oath and penalty of perjury — that you met the residence qualification to vote. In some counties this "supporting witness" had to accompany you to the registrars office, in others they were interviewed elsewhere. Some counties limited the number of new applicants a registered voter could vouch for in a given year to two or three. Since no white voter would dare vouch for a Black applicant, in counties where only a handful of African-Americans were already registered only a few more each year could be added to the rolls. And in counties were no African-Americans were registered, none ever could because they had no one to vouch for them.
(snip)
Your application was then reviewed by the three-member Board of Registrars — often in secret at a later date. They voted on whether or not you passed. It was entirely up to the judgment of the Board whether you passed or failed. If you were white and missed every single question they could still pass you if — in their sole judgment — you were "qualified." If you were Black and got every one correct, they could still flunk you if they considered you "unqualified."

Your name was published in the local newspaper listing of those who had applied to register. That was to make sure that all of your employers, landlords, mortgage-holders, bank loan officers, business-suppliers, and etc, were kept informed of this important event. And, of course, all of the information on your application was quietly passed under the table to the White Citizens Council and KKK for appropriate action. Their job was to encourage you to withdraw your application — or withdraw yourself out of the county — by whatever means they deemed necessary.

Today, people ask how anyone — white or Black — ever got through this mess to actually register? A good question. As a matter of public record, white registration in Alabama was very high, while Black registration was minuscule.


Much more info at the link.

75 American-African  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:00:44am

I was a little too early with this story. I am just glad to see the Tea Party folks expose themselves in this manner.

76 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:00:56am

re: #74 iceweasel

You think that Tancredo meant not letting black people vote?

77 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:01:40am

re: #63 subsailor68

And probably more think the New Deal ended it and it would have ended it earlier if Roosevelt had not tried to cut the deficit in 1937.

Amity Shales...really? Isn't she to the economics of the Great Depression as Jonah Goldberg is to Fascism? A tad on revisionist side?

78 darthstar  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:01:44am

re: #66 Ben Hur

Hey, there's more! The source of the Salon story has backtracked and published an article "correcting" the story:

[Link: washingtonindependent.com...]

READ///.///

O'Keefe's still a shitbag.

79 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:02:13am

re: #78 darthstar

O'Keefe's still a shitbag.

LOL.

That's not the point though.

80 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:02:14am

re: #63 subsailor68

Hi jamesfirecat! Great question. Yes, many economists seem to think that the economic turnaround was at least partly due to ramp up production even prior to our entry after Pearl Harbor. (Think of stuff like war material provided to Britain early on - even though it wasn't exactly authorized by Congress.)

However, I'd wager you and I would both much prefer a different kinda' stimulus than global conflagration.

;-)

Would you agree that in a way, WW2 was sort of like a HUGE stimulus package?

I mean the government had to pay all the people it was drafting, so now they were either no longer looking for work, or a job was now left open for someone else to fill, not to mention all the money that got paid to companies to build tanks and planes which lead to them hiring more people as well....

81 Girth  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:02:28am

The idea that you should have to pass a test in order to vote is inconsistent with the concept that all men are created equal and are endowed with inalienable rights.

Think about that for half a second Tom, you ignorant slut.

82 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:02:52am

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

Most Americans are weak on history and civics. Don't mistake LGF for the norm. Anyone who is a regular commenter here is unusually well informed about politics. A person of average knowledge wouldn't be able to keep up.

I voted for Tancredo because of his stand on illegal immigration.
My reasons are I know illegals are ill treated and taken advantage of.
However after leaving office Tancredo is showing what an ass he is. Maybe I need a civics lesson also.

83 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:03:02am

re: #76 Ben Hur

You think that Tancredo meant not letting black people vote?

That's exactly what he meant in the yesterday's article.

84 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:03:24am

re: #67 Lidane

Favorited. =)

85 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:03:38am

re: #66 Ben Hur

Hey, there's more! The source of the Salon story has backtracked and published an article "correcting" the story:

[Link: washingtonindependent.com...]

READ///.///

Uh, no.
Weigel has pointed out that all he knows is that O'Keefe attended the event. Which is all Charles himself pointed out.
There's loads more information and links in the thread here about it, including some new information about some of O'Keefe's other activities.
He's a guy who has built his career (such as it is) stoking the fires of racial resentment. And let's not get into Marcus Epstein and his connections to Tancredo...

86 recusancy  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:03:39am

re: #72 marjoriemoon

He only hates McCain because he's more liberal on immigration issues and that's all what Tancredo is about. Keeping immigrants outa this country.

McCain's probably going to do a hard right turn on immigration here coming up. He might have a minute man running against him in the primary. He's gone back on almost all his other "liberal" positions so I don't see why he wouldn't on this one too.

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:03:43am

re: #72 marjoriemoon

He only hates McCain because he's more liberal on immigration issues and that's all what Tancredo is about. Keeping immigrants outa this country.

Funny that, his family is from the old country. That would be Italy.

That's different because:

1. They entered legally,

2. Everyone in the family learned fluent English and throroughly acquainted themselves with the culture, customs, and history of the United States before getting on the boat, or at least, everyone in the family speaks English NOW,

and 3,

3. They weren't Mexican.

///When I think about what people said about my people and his when we were coming to America, it's bitter consolation how ironic it is that we're now shelling out the same to the incomers.

88 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:04:17am

re: #83 marjoriemoon

That's exactly what he meant in the yesterday's article.

Which one from yesterday? The one linked in the Thead Heading?

89 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:04:48am

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not so strong on the yiddish, since i come from a Sephardi background. Something about a pox or a plague?

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:04:57am

re: #76 Ben Hur

You think that Tancredo meant not letting black people vote?

I think that's exactly, although not exclusively, what he meant.

91 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:05:00am

re: #81 Girth

The idea that you should have to pass a test in order to vote is inconsistent with the concept that all men are created equal and are endowed with inalienable rights.

Think about that for half a second Tom, you ignorant slut.

To be fair, "life liberty and the Pursuit of happiness" it doesn't say anywhere in the constitution (leaving aside the amendments) that the right to vote is an inalienable right.

93 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:05:23am

re: #76 Ben Hur

You think that Tancredo meant not letting black people vote?

I think exactly what I said upthread: Tancredo believes that people who don't vote the way he would like them to are therefore not qualified to vote.

Tancredo is also playing to his crowd, who we know contain loads of racists, and we know how he feels about immigration.

94 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:05:27am

re: #80 jamesfirecat

Here's everyones favorite Liberal economist boogie man giving George Will a hard on:

95 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:06:43am

Since when would it be an advantage to politicians for voters to be educated?

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:07:03am

re: #89 Obdicut

I'm not so strong on the yiddish, since i come from a Sephardi background. Something about a pox or a plague?

It means "A plague on Columbus". Something the old folks used to say when adapting to life in America was getting them down.

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:07:26am

re: #89 Obdicut

I'm not so strong on the yiddish, since i come from a Sephardi background. Something about a pox or a plague?

Where's your family from? I mean, before?

98 Stanghazi  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:07:27am

re: #86 recusancy

McCain's probably going to do a hard right turn on immigration here coming up. He might have a minute man running against him in the primary. He's gone back on almost all his other "liberal" positions so I don't see why he wouldn't on this one too.

Such as DADT. McCain is a wimp now.

99 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:07:29am

re: #92 Killgore Trout

Disemboweler Jon Stewart Eviscerates Blogosphere (VIDEO)

That humor was a little bit more meta that I usually expect from Jon Stewart, but it wasn't a bad piece.

100 lightspeed  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:07:37am

Contemptible. Being from the South, I am quite familiar with these types of tactics and their history.

Sarah Palin should be all over this. Wouldn't this type of law potentially exclude mentally challenged individuals from voting? This should be much more offensive to her that the stupid comment Rahm Emmanuel made. Sarah, denounce Tancredo now!

101 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:07:58am

re: #85 iceweasel

Uh, no.
Weigel has pointed out that all he knows is that O'Keefe attended the event. Which is all Charles himself pointed out.
There's loads more information and links in the thread here about it, including some new information about some of O'Keefe's other activities.
He's a guy who has built his career (such as it is) stoking the fires of racial resentment. And let's not get into Marcus Epstein and his connections to Tancredo...

Uh, yes.

I merely stated that the source of the Salon article corrected some of the Salon articles assumptions from using him as a source.

Hence the headline by the actual source:

Clarification — and Mea Culpa — on James O’Keefe and ‘Race and Conservatism’

And the list of 5 things.

This doesn't mean O'Keefe (who for some reason get no benefit of doubt people scream that everyone else should have) isn't a prick.

No one brought up Charles.

It's information correcting the Salon article by the source used by Salon.

102 subsailor68  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:08:01am

re: #77 Jeff In Ohio

And probably more think the New Deal ended it and it would have ended it earlier if Roosevelt had not tried to cut the deficit in 1937.

Amity Shales...really? Isn't she to the economics of the Great Depression as Jonah Goldberg is to Fascism? A tad on revisionist side?

I'm not sure I'd call her an overall revisionist, just someone looking at the problem in a new way. As to the deficit issues in 1937, you could very well be right, but it was pretty much a total train wreck overall at that point.

I really don't know the answer - as all we have is what transpired - but I tend to think that, in general, when money is taken from the private sector and rerouted to government priorities, there are sometimes unintended consequences. The central planning disasters in the Soviet Union, for example, probably make a case to be very careful what we want to try.

(Full disclosure - I'm no expert in this area - or any other.)

:-)

103 Neutral President  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:08:13am

re: #82 Blueheron

I voted for Tancredo because of his stand on illegal immigration.
My reasons are I know illegals are ill treated and taken advantage of.
However after leaving office Tancredo is showing what an ass he is. Maybe I need a civics lesson also.

When I first heard of this clown all he talked about was illegal immigration, which I had no problem with, but that was all he ever talked about from 2006 up until primary season. I don't like one trick ponies, and usually when someone spends that much energy on illegal immigration to the exclusion of everything else, they really are anti-immigration in general and racist xenophobes. The man behind the mask started to slip out some during the primaries and I knew he was the asshat that I thought he was. This is just further confirmation.

104 Buck  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:08:15am

re: #27 Charles

Breitbart's site "Big Journalism" is amazing right now. It's the biggest tantrum I've ever seen.

Yes, but the story that O'Keefe has a problem racist past is falling apart.

He was not involved with organizing it. The picture of him manning a table with racist literature has not surfaced, only a cropped photo of him.

Black conservative Kevin Martin, one of several panelists at the Robert Taft Club ‘Race and Conservatism’ event in 2006, relates that he "had the chance to personally meet James O’Keefe after the event ended. He voiced personal support for me and my positions. He also repudiated the radical elements in the room that night."

105 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:08:27am

How about using this inteeligence test for voters?

[Link: www.psychbytes.com...]

Beedless to say, nirthers should also be banned...

106 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:08:30am

re: #93 iceweasel

Tancredo is also playing to his crowd, who we know contain loads of racists, and we know how he feels about immigration.

"They say they're building a wall because too many of us enter illegally..."

107 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:08:34am

re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that's exactly, although not exclusively, what he meant.

I think he meant immigrants.

There are actually literacy tests for immigrants in the US.

109 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:09:48am

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

That's different because:

1. They entered legally,

2. Everyone in the family learned fluent English and throroughly acquainted themselves with the culture, customs, and history of the United States before getting on the boat, or at least, everyone in the family speaks English NOW,

and 3,

3. They weren't Mexican.

///When I think about what people said about my people and his when we were coming to America, it's bitter consolation how ironic it is that we're now shelling out the same to the incomers.

I don't know why you put a sarc tag there. You didn't need it!

Maybe our grandparents were "better" immigrants because there was no welfare and they had to survive on their own. But this country was built on immigration. Maybe we need to change the Statute of Liberty too then?

I don't know about SW immigration. I only know about my own city of Miami and the vast majority of immigrants here learn the language, are hard working, buy homes and become citizens. There is an older generation here still that did not learn the language.

And living in a multicultural environment is wonderful. Always new people to meet and new stories to hear. It's makes life more interesting.

110 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:10:12am

re: #88 Ben Hur

Which one from yesterday? The one linked in the Thead Heading?

Yes.

111 Girth  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:10:24am

re: #91 jamesfirecat

To be fair, "life liberty and the Pursuit of happiness" it doesn't say anywhere in the constitution (leaving aside the amendments) that the right to vote is an inalienable right.

No, it's not in the Constitution, but it's a founding principle, and I would argue that the right to vote is fundamental to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

112 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:10:46am

re: #99 jamesfirecat

That humor was a little bit more meta that I usually expect from Jon Stewart, but it wasn't a bad piece.

It was pretty good. There was a time when I had high hopes for the blogosphere to keep the MSM in check but they've become just as silly and sensationalist as any tabloid.

113 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:10:55am

re: #13 Summer

What was that the GOP was saying about the need to attract more voters?

Good luck with that.

Obviously, if you can't attract more voters, the next best plan is to ensure that less people can vote overall. Especially if you can do it in a way that disenfrachises groups that routinely vote Democratic.
Coulter's 'jokes' about women having the vote taken away come to mind.

114 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:11:54am

re: #110 marjoriemoon

Yes.

OK.

I think he meant immigrants because he's anti-immigration.

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:12:00am

re: #107 Ben Hur

I think he meant immigrants.

There are actually literacy tests for immigrants in the US.

How do you get that? Any immigrant who is able to vote has already passed their literacy and civics test. So when he says Obama was elected because “we do not have a civics, literacy test before people can vote in this country,” he can't be referring to immigrant voters.

He means native-born Americans.

116 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:12:01am

re: #101 Ben Hur

And the list of 5 things.

This doesn't mean O'Keefe (who for some reason get no benefit of doubt people scream that everyone else should have) isn't a prick.

No one brought up Charles.

It's information correcting the Salon article by the source used by Salon.

And I'll still repeat comrade darthstar "O'Keefe is still a shitbag".

117 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:12:06am

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

That seems par for the course in the US.

The first wave of immigrants resented the second, the second the third, and so on. The cultural stereotypes are out in force as you read history and see bits of old newspapers and editorial commentary.

And there is awareness of this contradiction as well. Brooks pointed to it in _Blazing Saddles_, the Simpsons have as well.

It's one reason some have stated that the Tea Party faction should just pick up the old "Know Nothing" party name since many of the underlying memes are the same.

118 subsailor68  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:12:21am

re: #80 jamesfirecat

Would you agree that in a way, WW2 was sort of like a HUGE stimulus package?

I mean the government had to pay all the people it was drafting, so now they were either no longer looking for work, or a job was now left open for someone else to fill, not to mention all the money that got paid to companies to build tanks and planes which lead to them hiring more people as well...

Absolutely! But I'm not sure it follows that because a) we stimulated the hell out of the economy 'cause we were about to get into a horrible war translates to b) it was the spending on these things that got us out of the depression, so all we need to do is spend everything we can get our hands on now, and all will be well.

Think about the fact that Congress raised the debt ceiling yesterday. Washington is spending at a phenomenal rate. What happens when we need to raise more money? Tax, Borrow, or Print.

None of those three options are particularly palatable.

119 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:12:43am

re: #113 iceweasel

Obviously, if you can't attract more voters, the next best plan is to ensure that less people can vote overall. Especially if you can do it in a way that disenfrachises groups that routinely vote Democratic.
Coulter's 'jokes' about women having the vote taken away come to mind.

Ahem, that's fewer people, not less. Literacy test failed, votes cancelled, ciczenship suspended. Please leave the country by the nearest tunnel or just dig your own hole if none is available...

120 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:13:19am

re: #116 iceweasel

And I'll still repeat comrade darthstar "O'Keefe is still a shitbag".

Can't argue with that (yet).

We'll see.

121 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:13:25am

re: #107 Ben Hur

I think he meant immigrants.

There are actually literacy tests for immigrants in the US.

He's talking specifically about Obama voters. Not immigrants.

122 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:13:52am

re: #101 Ben Hur

And the list of 5 things.

This doesn't mean O'Keefe (who for some reason get no benefit of doubt people scream that everyone else should have) isn't a prick.

No one brought up Charles.

It's information correcting the Salon article by the source used by Salon.

The disputed details really don't change the big picture for me. Whether or not he was at the table or involved in organizing isn't really that essential. He was there and the it was a forum for some really nasty people with ugly ideas.

123 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:14:12am

re: #33 Obdicut

I know. It's sad. I work with highly educated people, but they're specialized, and they know very little about key parts of US history. People have such a vague idea about how women got votes, for example, and just how volatile, angry, and stupid that fight got at times. It's often presented as brave women pushing forwards and being recognized for their gutsiness, whereas it was generations of women being told they were sinning damned sluts for even suggesting such a thing, before it got anywhere.

I think the lack of knowledge of our own history really, really underlies a lot of the political problems we're having today. The lack of understanding of how our government has worked and changed over time. The lack of understanding of the development of the market and the relationship between labor and management.

And of course, in subject of race relations. We both paint the sides as far too black and white-- people who weren't racist vs. people who were-- we mainly paint it in terms of the minority groups fighting for their rights on their own, instead of in the context of larger social movements.

Oh, I could go on...

Please go on. I love well informed rants.
My Grandmother told me with pride about her first vote and how it was taken away from her when she married my Grandfather a Frenchman. She had to take civics classes and apply for citizenship in order to become a citizen again. A woman whose ancestry went back to the founding of her country.

124 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:14:36am

re: #119 ralphieboy

Ahem, that's fewer people, not less. Literacy test failed, votes cancelled, ciczenship suspended. Please leave the country by the nearest tunnel or just dig your own hole if none is available...

You're right. Damn, that's a particular error I don't usually make. This is what happens when you revise poorly...

125 darthstar  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:14:54am

re: #114 Ben Hur

OK.

I think he meant immigrants because he's anti-immigration.

I'm sure Tancredo didn't mean white immigrants.

126 cliffster  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:14:56am

re: #113 iceweasel

Obviously, if you can't attract more voters, the next best plan is to ensure that less people can vote overall. Especially if you can do it in a way that disenfrachises groups that routinely vote Democratic.
Coulter's 'jokes' about women having the vote taken away come to mind.

Stop women suffrage!

127 recusancy  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:15:02am

re: #77 Jeff In Ohio

And probably more think the New Deal ended it and it would have ended it earlier if Roosevelt had not tried to cut the deficit in 1937.

Amity Shales...really? Isn't she to the economics of the Great Depression as Jonah Goldberg is to Fascism? A tad on revisionist side?

Very good comparison.

128 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:15:05am

re: #102 subsailor68

I'm not sure I'd call her an overall revisionist, just someone looking at the problem in a new way. As to the deficit issues in 1937, you could very well be right, but it was pretty much a total train wreck overall at that point.

I really don't know the answer - as all we have is what transpired - but I tend to think that, in general, when money is taken from the private sector and rerouted to government priorities, there are sometimes unintended consequences. The central planning disasters in the Soviet Union, for example, probably make a case to be very careful what we want to try.

(Full disclosure - I'm no expert in this area - or any other.)


:-)

Me neither, but I have my doubts the private sector is hearty enough to pull the country out of the recession.

More Krugman
[Link: economistsview.typepad.com...]

Dean Baker
[Link: hnn.us...]

Of course these guys are New Kynesians for the most part.

129 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:15:15am

re: #118 subsailor68

Absolutely! But I'm not sure it follows that because a) we stimulated the hell out of the economy 'cause we were about to get into a horrible war translates to b) it was the spending on these things that got us out of the depression, so all we need to do is spend everything we can get our hands on now, and all will be well.

Think about the fact that Congress raised the debt ceiling yesterday. Washington is spending at a phenomenal rate. What happens when we need to raise more money? Tax, Borrow, or Print.

None of those three options are particularly palatable.

WWII had one big psychological effect, and one that was most incredible in economic terms: we had guns as well as butter. people of that "Greatest Generation" were working harder, settling for less pay, and saving more of what they earned or investing it in government bonds.

So we really do need the Moral Equivalent of WWII to get us all to buckle down and become the "Next Greatest Generation"

131 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:16:17am

re: #104 Buck

Yes, but the story that O'Keefe has a problem racist past is falling apart.

He was not involved with organizing it. The picture of him manning a table with racist literature has not surfaced, only a cropped photo of him.

Black conservative Kevin Martin, one of several panelists at the Robert Taft Club ‘Race and Conservatism’ event in 2006, relates that he "had the chance to personally meet James O’Keefe after the event ended. He voiced personal support for me and my positions. He also repudiated the radical elements in the room that night."

Kevin Martin is a shill for "Project 21". Here's what another attendee had to say about his presentation:

Nevertheless, Martin seemed to blame the media for most of the negative stereotypes about blacks. His speech was also full of the usual banalities, such as “we’re all members of one race: the human race,” etc. Nevertheless, Martin should be praised for rejecting the culture of victimhood that he described.

[Emphasis added]

And the same person said this about people who came up to him after the presentation:

What did the audience think of all this? It’s difficult to say. Few seemed to be repelled by what they heard, and at least two of the young conservatives from LI told me afterwards in private conversation that they were deeply impressed with Taylor’s arguments.

Taylor's arguments are racist in the extreme.

Link for both quotations.

132 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:16:43am

re: #43 eclectic infidel

This is the first I've heard of such a thing. Do forgive my ignorance, but how would this (see quote below) look on paper?

"as it was used to disfranchise many literate southern blacks while allowing many illiterate southern whites to vote. "

That is, what kinds of questions were asked to produce the above result?

It happened. Google it. Your jaw will drop.

133 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:17:21am

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

How do you get that? Any immigrant who is able to vote has already passed their literacy and civics test. So when he says Obama was elected because “we do not have a civics, literacy test before people can vote in this country,” he can't be referring to immigrant voters.

He means native-born Americans.

Good point.

Maybe he's trying to play off this:

[Link: www.mofopolitics.com...]

I don't think he meant black people. And no, I'm not a Tancredo position supporter.

(As an aside, our peeps were subject to the literacy tests of sorts also leading up the 1924.

You had to be fluent in your "home countries" dialect, etc., knowing full well that Jews in Eastern Europe were segragated, were "guests" in their "home countries" and mainly, if not only, spoke Yiddish, and not Polish, etc.)

134 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:18:23am

Bachmann: Obama ‘wants to annihilate us!’

In a fiery fundraising pitch for the American Conservative Union Strikeforce, Rep. Michele Bachmann asks supporters, “Will you let Barack Obama KILL conservatism?” Calling the president a “political street fighter,” she says his “agenda is a dagger pointed right at the heart of conservatism.”

The fundraising letter, which was sent out in late December, says, “Obama wants to use ACORN to radicalize America because he isn’t interested merely in defeating conservatives… …HE WANTS TO ANNIHILATE US! That’s the purpose behind ObamaCare, too.”

135 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:18:29am

re: #114 Ben Hur

OK.

I think he meant immigrants because he's anti-immigration.

Blacks were asked "literacy" questions in the 50s to keep them from voting. Tancredo doesn't know about this? Well why should he. Does he give a crap about Black history? Please.

I don't have to read further than the first sentence to see his racism screaming at me. Immigrants today are the dark folks. Tancredo calls them a "cult of multiculturism" because they aren't white Europeans anymore.

Maybe he fooled you. He didn't fool me.

136 subsailor68  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:18:32am

re: #128 Jeff In Ohio

Me neither, but I have my doubts the private sector is hearty enough to pull the country out of the recession.

More Krugman
[Link: economistsview.typepad.com...]

Dean Baker
[Link: hnn.us...]

Of course these guys are New Kynesians for the most part.

Sigh. There are days I'm right there with you. The sad thing is, it's the private sector that funds the public one. Keynes is an interesting guy. I should try to find the letter he wrote to Roosevelt expressing concerns about IIRC the way money was being spent. If I can find the link, I'll let ya know.

137 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:18:32am

re: #126 cliffster

Stop women suffrage!


[Video]

Heh. Think I saw that once a while ago--
Women! Know Your Limits!

138 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:18:59am

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

Hrm. My grandmother's I don't know much about, since she denied Jewish heritage and was distant from most of her family other than her brother. Her family has been passing/assimilating as non-Jews for a long time, but it's traceable back to Ellis island-- they immigrated here from England, but that doesn't mean so much, could have just been where they were wehn they came. We know they were Sephardic because grandma spoke a little Ladino and her parents wrote whole letters in it, but grandma burned most of their stuff so we'll never know much more than that.

My grandfather we can trace back with certainty only to the kick-out of the Alhomed from Spain. We were there then, and we stayed through the inquisition. During the inquisition, family was slaughtered, lots converted, and some-- my branch-- were made into slaves/indentured servants to pay for the cost of their trials or just to pay the Inquisition, and sent to the Carribean. There it gets a little murky about when they exactly stop being indentured/slaves-- and whole swathes of the family die out-- but someone named Ortez is important enough to us that some of us still have his name. It's one of my middle names. We've pretty much figured out he was some minor government official who helped us in some way.

After that, that side of the family headed up into the US and out in South America, and those two branches pretty much lost touch with each other. I've done a little work to see if I can reconnect us, but not much.

The group that went up into the US spread out some-- and their numbers were never that big, that side of the family is very atypical and tended to only have one or two kids per generation, but the occasional six-kid group expanded it a little. Unfortunately, in the generation right before my grandfather's, a lot of them moved back into Europe, for various reasons. The religious ones amongst them were going to European universities to have Jewish teachers, which was more common in Europe then than it was in the US. The non-religious group had a textile concern that was becoming more and more Amsterdam/Paris based. Another group headed into Russia for reasons that nobody's very clear on.

So unfortunately most of my family was killed in WWII, either as US citizens or Russian citizens fighting over there or as Jews rounded up by the Germans and everyone else.

The family now consists of me, my mom, my second cousin and his daughter.

139 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:20:33am

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist

That was something I was wondering about as well--my impression is that the Tea Party folks are no better informed about civics than the average guy on the street, and some of them seem almost comically ignorant.

Also, if he hates McCain, who does he think WOULD have become President if we were all wise men?


There's your first error in trying to analyze this guy SFZ.

140 subsailor68  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:20:46am

re: #129 ralphieboy

WWII had one big psychological effect, and one that was most incredible in economic terms: we had guns as well as butter. people of that "Greatest Generation" were working harder, settling for less pay, and saving more of what they earned or investing it in government bonds.

So we really do need the Moral Equivalent of WWII to get us all to buckle down and become the "Next Greatest Generation"

So we really do need the Moral Equivalent of WWII to get us all to buckle down and become the "Next Greatest Generation"

Phew! Glad ya said "moral equivalent" there, but overall I like your sentiment!

141 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:21:28am

re: #122 Killgore Trout

The disputed details really don't change the big picture for me. Whether or not he was at the table or involved in organizing isn't really that essential. He was there and the it was a forum for some really nasty people with ugly ideas.

I know what the answer to that is too. There was a forum or debate with peeps from both sides.

Listen, the guy is toast for his Rutgers episode, if it's true, anyway.

142 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:21:38am

re: #129 ralphieboy

WWII had one big psychological effect, and one that was most incredible in economic terms: we had guns as well as butter. people of that "Greatest Generation" were working harder, settling for less pay, and saving more of what they earned or investing it in government bonds.

So we really do need the Moral Equivalent of WWII to get us all to buckle down and become the "Next Greatest Generation"

F***ing arabs, they can't even do evil right!

If they were a better villian then we'd be a better hero!

///

143 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:21:40am

re: #55 jamesfirecat

If it didn't work then what did end the Great Depression?

WW2?

Yep.

144 philosophus invidius  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:22:37am

A literacy test? Wouldn't that bar their keynote speaker?

145 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:23:46am

re: #138 Obdicut

If you have any interest, and its sounds like you may, I'm assuming you have family names, check out jewishgen.org. It's a wonderful resource. It sounds like you do have a bit of information collected even if a lot was lost :(

146 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:24:05am

re: #135 marjoriemoon

Blacks were asked "literacy" questions in the 50s to keep them from voting. Tancredo doesn't know about this? Well why should he. Does he give a crap about Black history? Please.

I don't have to read further than the first sentence to see his racism screaming at me. Immigrants today are the dark folks. Tancredo calls them a "cult of multiculturism" because they aren't white Europeans anymore.

Maybe he fooled you. He didn't fool me.

I know the history well, thank you.

I'm sure the genius tea-baggers, stupid one minute, history majors the next, new it as well.

Being against multi-culturalism is a legit position - because it doesn't mean hating people of color.

That's not the point. The point here is to make it about denying blacks the right to vote, and that's not how I'm seeing it.

147 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:25:21am

An oldie but a goodie:

Under Misspelled Banner, Buchanan And White Nationalist Brimelow Argue For English-Only Initiatives

I wonder who else might have attended that conference?
Maybe the Great Gazoogle can help me....

What's this? Agenda included:

God's Country or Obama's?
Social Issues and our Cultural Heritage, Ken Blackwell
Our Common Understanding, Phill Kline
Assimilating Immigrants into Americans, Tom Tancredo

Hello, Tom.

148 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:26:33am

re: #145 marjoriemoon

Thanks! Most of the other genealogy sites are run by the mormons, and I don't want to deal with my ancestors getting baptized. That's just creepy.

I hadn't seen that one before. Thank you very much!

149 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:26:41am

re: #102 subsailor68

I'm not sure I'd call her an overall revisionist, just someone looking at the problem in a new way. As to the deficit issues in 1937, you could very well be right, but it was pretty much a total train wreck overall at that point.

I really don't know the answer - as all we have is what transpired - but I tend to think that, in general, when money is taken from the private sector and rerouted to government priorities, there are sometimes unintended consequences. The central planning disasters in the Soviet Union, for example, probably make a case to be very careful what we want to try.

(Full disclosure - I'm no expert in this area - or any other.)

:-)

The thing is, at the moment the private sector is tanking, and it isn't providing us with enough jobs.

When there aren't enough jobs to go around, the public doesn't have enough money to pay for stuff.

This in turn means that companies start turning out less stuff, which means they need fewer employees.

It can be dangerously self sustaining cycle if we let it be.

That's why its important that government steps in and hires people to government jobs (either as soldiers or to build infrastructure) this puts money back in the pockets of people so they can spend it so that companies now have people who want to buy things so they hire more people to make more things which mean there are even more people who want to buy things and so on and so forth...

That's a pretty simplified version of it, but I think it points out why stuff like the Stimulius bill was needed and did good for our country...

150 recusancy  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:26:45am

re: #146 Ben Hur

I know the history well, thank you.

I'm sure the genius tea-baggers, stupid one minute, history majors the next, new it as well.

Being against multi-culturalism is a legit position - because it doesn't mean hating people of color.

That's not the point. The point here is to make it about denying blacks the right to vote, and that's not how I'm seeing it.

Isn't that the very definition of bigotry?

151 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:27:19am

re: #147 iceweasel

Not to mention that "Assimilating Immigrants into Americans" would mean Americans were eating the immigrants, or otherwise subsuming them.

152 Boondock St. Bender  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:28:11am

perhaps the tea partiers need a mascot....i propose...lets see..a bird..a black bird maybe wearing a straw hat....they can give him a cute name...something like i don't know...hmm..maybe jim crow.

153 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:28:53am

re: #150 recusancy

Isn't that the very definition of bigotry?

Uh, no.

Believing immigrants that come to a country should assimilate into what was once called the "Melting Pot" not bigotry.

154 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:28:59am

re: #76 Ben Hur

You think that Tancredo meant not letting black people vote?


There was a time I would have stuck up for Tancredo. Not anymore. He has really slipped the rails.

155 Girth  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:29:23am

re: #151 Obdicut

Not to mention that "Assimilating Immigrants into Americans" would mean Americans were eating the immigrants, or otherwise subsuming them.

Soylent Green is people!!! It's PEOPLE!!!!

156 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:29:47am

re: #153 Ben Hur

Actually, they should amalgamate, not just assimilate. We're enriched by the various cultures that join together to make up America. Chinese New Years celebrated in San Francisco Chinatown is a beautiful thing.

157 philosophus invidius  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:30:10am

re: #151 Obdicut

Not to mention that "Assimilating Immigrants into Americans" would mean Americans were eating the immigrants, or otherwise subsuming them.

I guess Tancredo doesn't pass his own literacy test either.

158 Soap_Man  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:30:15am

re: #152 Boondock St. Bender

perhaps the tea partiers need a mascot...i propose...lets see..a bird..a black bird maybe wearing a straw hat...they can give him a cute name...something like i don't know...hmm..maybe jim crow.

My mom gave me Dumbo as a graduation gift because it was my favorite movie when I was little.

Watching it as an adult made me realize how fucked up that movie is. Those "helpful" crows were some of the most blatantly racists things I've ever seen in any movie, let alone a childrens film.

159 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:30:23am

re: #111 Girth

No, it's not in the Constitution, but it's a founding principle, and I would argue that the right to vote is fundamental to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I agree with you there, I support the amendment that says everyone who is a citizen should have a right to vote, and I do feel that it's a part of "pursuit of happiness" since after all "no taxation without representation" leading to a system where anyone is put in a similar situation is pretty pathetic.

I'm just saying that there might be others, like Mr. Tancredo who evidently see it differently....

160 zerogain  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:30:39am

Hey lizards, I don't post often so please don't troll-label me for this, but looking at that quote I think it's a comma misappropriation.

Tancredo is quoted thusly: "Obama was elected because “we do not have a civics, literacy test before people can vote in this country.”"

How different is that when you do this? "...we do not have a civics literacy test before people can vote in this country."

Without the comma this seems to me that he's saying that most people in this country are bleeding idiots when it comes to civics, which I think almost everyone here thinks about the tea partiers and the leftist moonbat/hamas symps, so it's not a terribly false assertion. And if you've never said "so and so shouldn't be able to vote" then you're free from the stain of the same idiocy.

Ah well, still no room for rational people anymore in politics so screw em all...

161 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:31:08am

re: #154 Blueheron

There was a time I would have stuck up for Tancredo. Not anymore. He has really slipped the rails.

I'm not "sticking up for him" in the way you mean.

I am not a Tancredo supporter.

Just conveying how I see it.

162 Boondock St. Bender  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:32:12am

re: #158 Soap_Man

disney has a long and proud line of what are now perceived to be racist characters.still waiting for the directors cut box dvd of "song of the south"
(never gonna happen)

163 Locker  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:32:15am

I'm a pizza bigot. Hey, it's not my fault Chicago makes a quiche and calls it pizza.

164 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:32:26am

re: #156 Obdicut

Actually, they should amalgamate, not just assimilate. We're enriched by the various cultures that join together to make up America. Chinese New Years celebrated in San Francisco Chinatown is a beautiful thing.

I agree.

I don't mean "forget where who you are or where you come from."

165 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:32:47am

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

That's different because:

1. They entered legally,

2. Everyone in the family learned fluent English and throroughly acquainted themselves with the culture, customs, and history of the United States before getting on the boat, or at least, everyone in the family speaks English NOW,

and 3,

3. They weren't Mexican.

///When I think about what people said about my people and his when we were coming to America, it's bitter consolation how ironic it is that we're now shelling out the same to the incomers.


Illegals are ill treated and there is no need for it. We should have good work card rules for laborers coming into our country.

166 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:32:55am

re: #146 Ben Hur

I know the history well, thank you.

I'm sure the genius tea-baggers, stupid one minute, history majors the next, new it as well.

Being against multi-culturalism is a legit position - because it doesn't mean hating people of color.

That's not the point. The point here is to make it about denying blacks the right to vote, and that's not how I'm seeing it.

Tancredo has a history of this kinda talk. He didn't wake up one day and pull it out of a hat.

I don't understand how you can say being against multi-culturalism is a legitimate position on anything! What the hell does that mean?

I have a Portuguese neighbor named ChaCha. An older woman who pronounces silent "e" when she speaks. "Made" is Madey. Take is Takey. I love listening to her speak, it's so unusual.

Anyway, she had a quibble with another neighbor and she'd say to me, "I see with the eye. I see!" And put her finger up to her eye and point.

When it comes to Tom Tancredo, I see with the eye.

167 Soap_Man  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:33:14am

re: #163 Locker

I'm a pizza bigot. Hey, it's not my fault Chicago makes a quiche and calls it pizza.

AAARG. Don't start with me Locker!

168 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:33:26am

re: #160 zerogain

Nice attempt, but no. Changing the comma barely changes a thing.

It doesn't matter what the test is. Suggesting a test of civics is, as I said above, a failure to understand civics.

169 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:33:26am

re: #148 Obdicut

Thanks! Most of the other genealogy sites are run by the mormons, and I don't want to deal with my ancestors getting baptized. That's just creepy.

I hadn't seen that one before. Thank you very much!

Ooo you'll spend days there. Let me know if you need any help with anything or have questions.

170 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:33:49am

re: #160 zerogain

I hadn't considered that possibility, the use of the terms together, not separated by a comma.

Like "financial literacy" - it may well be.

171 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:33:49am

re: #151 Obdicut

Need suggestions for what salsa goes best with your Soylent Green?

//

172 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:33:55am

re: #166 marjoriemoon

Tancredo has a history of this kinda talk. He didn't wake up one day and pull it out of a hat.

I don't understand how you can say being against multi-culturalism is a legitimate position on anything! What the hell does that mean?

I have a Portuguese neighbor named ChaCha. An older woman who pronounces silent "e" when she speaks. "Made" is Madey. Take is Takey. I love listening to her speak, it's so unusual.

Anyway, she had a quibble with another neighbor and she'd say to me, "I see with the eye. I see!" And put her finger up to her eye and point.

When it comes to Tom Tancredo, I see with the eye.

Being anti-multi-culturalism doesn't mean hate your Portugese neighbor.

173 Soap_Man  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:34:02am

re: #162 Boondock St. Bender

disney has a long and proud line of what are now perceived to be racist characters.still waiting for the directors cut box dvd of "song of the south"
(never gonna happen)

I know, but the crows in Dumbo go far beyond your usual Disney shit.

174 Locker  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:34:10am

re: #167 Soap_Man

AAARG. Don't start with me Locker!

Bring it deep dish boy!

175 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:34:54am

re: #47 subsailor68

"FDR's big government spending helped us out of the Great Depression"

To be fair, there is disagreement among economists and economic historians about that, with the consensus seeming to be that it didn't work particularly well. There are two very readable books on this:

"The Forgotten Man" - Amity Schlaes
"New Deal or Raw Deal" - Burton Fulsom, Jr.

And, there's Henry Morgenthau's admission (FDR's best friend and Secretary of the Treasury):

We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work ... After eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... And an enormous debt to boot!

(paraphrased from a letter written in the late 30's - after, as he notes, eight years of the FDR administration)

Sorry, I've got a big problem with the two authors you listed there.

Amity Shlaes is, at best a revisionist who misquoted and cherry-picked statistics from the 1920s and 1930s, going as far as completely discounting the Hoover administration from having any role in the Great Depression.
Just about every economist who isn't a member of the AEI, including several Nobel laureates in economics absolutely savaged Shlaes' assertions.

New Yorker review of "The Forgotten Man" by John Updike

Folsom, on the other hand, also claims robber barons were "constructive visionaries who benefited consumers and were integral to the development of industry". This belief alone puts him squarely in the "crackpot" camp for me.

176 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:35:10am

re: #172 Ben Hur

Being anti-multi-culturalism doesn't mean hate your Portugese neighbor.

What does 'being anti-multiculturalism' mean?
We're a multicultural society. Always have been.

177 Locker  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:35:15am

re: #171 oaktree

Need suggestions for what salsa goes best with your Soylent Green?

//

Best salsa for Long Pig? Probably something with some sweetness like a mango chutney salsa.

178 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:35:46am

re: #172 Ben Hur

Being anti-multi-culturalism doesn't mean hate your Portugese neighbor.

Who does it mean I'm supposed to hate.

179 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:35:46am

re: #158 Soap_Man

My mom gave me Dumbo as a graduation gift because it was my favorite movie when I was little.

Watching it as an adult made me realize how fucked up that movie is. Those "helpful" crows were some of the most blatantly racists things I've ever seen in any movie, let alone a childrens film.

Those were "magic negroes".

180 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:35:59am

re: #177 Locker

Trader Joe's has a real good habenero-lime salsa.

181 Boondock St. Bender  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:36:31am

re: #160 zerogain

however you cut the commas...it is still an incredably stupid thing to say while speaking in public.(and yes there is a double standard as to what you say around close trusted freinds,and what you say in a public gathering.)jack-ass is just throwing bombs to his faithful,in the hopes of getting attention...kinda like the kid in grammer school who used to eat worms.....

182 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:36:33am

re: #173 Soap_Man

I know, but the crows in Dumbo go far beyond your usual Disney shit.

You might enjoy this article...

[Link: www.cracked.com...]

183 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:36:38am

re: #176 iceweasel

What does 'being anti-multiculturalism' mean?
We're a multicultural society. Always have been.

See, I'd argue that we haven't been. We've been multi-ethnic, to be sure, but there has never really yet been a multi-cultural people. Ours is the first generation of Western civilization to try it.

184 subsailor68  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:36:43am

re: #149 jamesfirecat

The thing is, at the moment the private sector is tanking, and it isn't providing us with enough jobs.

When there aren't enough jobs to go around, the public doesn't have enough money to pay for stuff.

This in turn means that companies start turning out less stuff, which means they need fewer employees.

It can be dangerously self sustaining cycle if we let it be.

That's why its important that government steps in and hires people to government jobs (either as soldiers or to build infrastructure) this puts money back in the pockets of people so they can spend it so that companies now have people who want to buy things so they hire more people to make more things which mean there are even more people who want to buy things and so on and so forth...

That's a pretty simplified version of it, but I think it points out why stuff like the Stimulius bill was needed and did good for our country...

There is a potential problem with an approach that focuses on creating government jobs to put people back to work, and that is that those jobs require funding from the public sector, which gets its funding from taxation, borrowing, or printing money. At some point, this becomes unsustainable, and we may be very close.

China, India, and other countries are already indicating they may not be willing or able to "invest" in Treasury's next offering. We're also competing with European and other countries who also need to borrow. If Treasury offers new paper, and nobody buys - it's known IIRC as a "failed auction" and the result of that would be an economic catastrophe.

Higher taxation simply removes even more money from the private sector - also not a good thing.

Printing money is always a recipe for inflation, so not necessarily a good plan either.

The stimulus, for a number of reasons, has not created jobs - other than the increase of government jobs (up to 2.5 million now is it?). Unemployment numbers haven't gone down, they've just been doctored a bit to leave out those no longer receiving benefits, or those who've just given up looking.

Like I said, I'm not an expert, but it seems to me the solution has to focus on creating an environment that bolsters the private sector, while returning to fiscal discipline in the public sector.

185 MandyManners  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:36:51am

re: #3 Guanxi88

You do that, and there'll be nobody in Congress or in any elected office higher than, say, alderman dog-catcher.

186 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:37:10am

re: #176 iceweasel

What does 'being anti-multiculturalism' mean?
We're a multicultural society. Always have been.

Oh no.

I don't have the time to go into that kind of posting.

Think Britain.

Less about hypens, more about shared values.

(as a start).

187 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:37:16am

re: #146 Ben Hur


Being against multi-culturalism is a legit position - because it doesn't mean hating people of color.

That's not the point. The point here is to make it about denying blacks the right to vote, and that's not how I'm seeing it.

Being against multiculturalism is like being against rain. Won't do much good.

I am at a loss as to how to interpret this. What he says, clear as day, is that Obama's win is illegitimate because his voters are ignorant. That is at the least presumptuous and insulting almost beyond belief, and I find it impossible to believe that there is not a strong racial overtone to it at the very least.

What do you think he means by it?

188 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:37:26am

re: #183 Guanxi88

Do you seriously think that southern slaves and their masters shared the same culture?

189 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:37:46am

re: #178 marjoriemoon

Who does it mean I'm supposed to hate.

It doesn't mean hate at all.

190 Soap_Man  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:38:03am

re: #174 Locker

Bring it deep dish boy!

I believe we have had this argument before (maybe not with you, but me and Dark (I think) had to argue with all you foolish NY pizza types.)

Since I'm at work right now and don't have the time for anything drawn out, I'll just say that Chicago-style pizza (both types) is hearty and filling, while others leave me empty and wanting more, only to be hungry a few hours late. Like Chinese food.

191 Girth  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:38:22am

re: #180 oaktree

Trader Joe's has a real good habenero-lime salsa.

I loves me some Trader Joe's. Their Vodka Marinara sauce is fantastic.

192 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:39:07am

re: #189 Ben Hur

It doesn't mean hate at all.

I'll stop being preachy then and ask you how you interpret it.

193 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:39:10am

re: #187 SanFranciscoZionist

Being against multiculturalism is like being against rain. Won't do much good.

I am at a loss as to how to interpret this. What he says, clear as day, is that Obama's win is illegitimate because his voters are ignorant. That is at the least presumptuous and insulting almost beyond belief, and I find it impossible to believe that there is not a strong racial overtone to it at the very least.

What do you think he means by it?

Yes. The bolded is what he is saying.

He is not saying to deny black people the vote.

194 perkypauly  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:39:43am

If one can not read or write than how`can the prospective voter understand the issues presented?

195 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:39:45am

re: #186 Ben Hur

Oh no.

I don't have the time to go into that kind of posting.

Think Britain.

Less about hypens, more about shared values.

(as a start).

We aren't the U.K. Are you talking about Muslim immigration?

196 Altermite  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:39:55am

NY pizza is great, if you like measuring personal consumption by the acre.

197 Boondock St. Bender  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:40:46am

re: #182 jamesfirecat

dammit you found it first..oh well

zip a dee doo dah!

198 recusancy  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:40:55am

re: #187 SanFranciscoZionist

Being against multiculturalism is like being against rain. Won't do much good.

I am at a loss as to how to interpret this. What he says, clear as day, is that Obama's win is illegitimate because his voters are ignorant. That is at the least presumptuous and insulting almost beyond belief, and I find it impossible to believe that there is not a strong racial overtone to it at the very least.

What do you think he means by it?

It's bigotry with new marketing.

199 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:41:00am

re: #172 Ben Hur

Being anti-multi-culturalism doesn't mean hate your Portugese neighbor.

What the hell does 'being anti-multi-culturalism' mean? We are a multicultural society, and have been since the beginning. We can celebrate it or fight over it. Tancredo's picked his side.

200 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:41:06am

re: #186 Ben Hur

Oh no.

I don't have the time to go into that kind of posting.

Think Britain.

Less about hypens, more about shared values.

(as a start).

Unfortunately when I think "Britain", I think about the BNP. I'm sure that isn't who you ally yourself with in any way at all, but I don't know what you mean by multiculturalism or what aspects of it you dislike or what you propose. But we can have that conversation at some other point.

201 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:41:36am

re: #192 marjoriemoon

I'll stop being preachy then and ask you how you interpret it.

It's a conversation I would love to have in person, actually, because I have no time to write out a paper online.

The crassest (?) way I've seen it summarized is multi-culturalism is celebrating someone else' nationalism.

202 lostlakehiker  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:41:38am

Tancredo is just calling for whites-only voting rights. It's a pretty obvious code-word game.

But just for kicks, let's say the government did what he asked, and instituted literacy tests. And let's say the government also did what he implicitly calls for, and made them dishonest and unfair tests, with the examiner looking to give the nod to the guys he liked and not to the others.

It would only be natural that they would. In-power groups always take advantage of every legal lever they've got. That's why we established limits on the power of government in the first place. That's why the original batch of literacy tests was unconstitutional: there was just no way that the tests would in reality be administered impartially.

What would have happened in Massachusetts? Right. The ruling party decides who gets to be a literacy examiner, and standards are subjective, and behold, wannabe Scott Brown voters just don't make the grade.

203 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:41:40am

re: #178 marjoriemoon

Who does it mean I'm supposed to hate.

John McCain!

204 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:42:06am

re: #158 Soap_Man

My mom gave me Dumbo as a graduation gift because it was my favorite movie when I was little.

Watching it as an adult made me realize how fucked up that movie is. Those "helpful" crows were some of the most blatantly racists things I've ever seen in any movie, let alone a childrens film.

Disney was one of the few studios of that time that provided opportunities for "Negro" entertainers in mainstream films.

205 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:42:19am

re: #193 Ben Hur

Yes. The bolded is what he is saying.

He is not saying to deny black people the vote.

When he throws in the "cult of multiculturism" he is talking about immigrants (his favorite subject) and immigrants vote Democrat by and large. That would be Black and Hispanics.

How do you interpret the "cult of multiculturism" then?

206 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:42:34am

re: #172 Ben Hur

Being anti-multi-culturalism doesn't mean hate your Portugese neighbor.

Dammit. As someone who grew up in the South during the 1960s and 1970s, my dog-whistle detector is going off bigtime right now, as "multiculturalism" was a favorite term used by the neo-segregationists.

207 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:42:36am

re: #188 Obdicut

Do you seriously think that southern slaves and their masters shared the same culture?

Well, if you wanna go down that road, I'd suggest that they had greater points of commonality, in terms of culture, than either one had with, let us say, my ancestors or yours. Common religion, certainly; common language, by and large; common cultural referrants, certainly.

208 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:42:57am

re: #184 subsailor68

There is a potential problem with an approach that focuses on creating government jobs to put people back to work, and that is that those jobs require funding from the public sector, which gets its funding from taxation, borrowing, or printing money. At some point, this becomes unsustainable, and we may be very close.

China, India, and other countries are already indicating they may not be willing or able to "invest" in Treasury's next offering. We're also competing with European and other countries who also need to borrow. If Treasury offers new paper, and nobody buys - it's known IIRC as a "failed auction" and the result of that would be an economic catastrophe.

Higher taxation simply removes even more money from the private sector - also not a good thing.

Printing money is always a recipe for inflation, so not necessarily a good plan either.

The stimulus, for a number of reasons, has not created jobs - other than the increase of government jobs (up to 2.5 million now is it?). Unemployment numbers haven't gone down, they've just been doctored a bit to leave out those no longer receiving benefits, or those who've just given up looking.

Like I said, I'm not an expert, but it seems to me the solution has to focus on creating an environment that bolsters the private sector, while returning to fiscal discipline in the public sector.

Well I'm not saying we should just be shoveling money at our problems all the time.

But bare in mind, the Great Depression was a period of great deflation as well, so printing money in that case might be just what the doctor ordered.

Secondly, the idea is that when the market f***s up like it has then, like it is now, you have the government help, and you borrow money to do it as needed.

Then once the economy is stable and self sustaining again, you take your hand off, you decrease spending and you are able to have budget surpluses which you use to pay back the money you spent.

It hasn't worked that way I'd contend because after WW2 we were busy shoveling money into the military furnace as fast as possible to fight the Russians and for some (in my opinion) foolish reason we didn't really cut back when they collapsed to take care of the debt we'd built up.

What do you think the government should do, just sit back and twiddle its thumbs while the nation goes to hell?

209 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:43:53am

re: #186 Ben Hur

Oh no.

I don't have the time to go into that kind of posting.

Think Britain.

Less about hypens, more about shared values.

(as a start).

I think 'multi-culturalism' doesn't mean what a lot of people who are against it think it means. The term has been appropriated and twisted to mean that people don't think of themselves as Americans 'first'. BS.

210 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:44:36am

re: #200 iceweasel

Unfortunately when I think "Britain", I think about the BNP. I'm sure that isn't who you ally yourself with in any way at all, but I don't know what you mean by multiculturalism or what aspects of it you dislike or what you propose. But we can have that conversation at some other point.

Seems like anti-multiculturism leads to nationalism which leads to Nazism (fascism).

No thanks, I'll hang out the Black folks over here then.

211 subsailor68  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:44:44am

re: #175 RadicalModerate

Sorry, I've got a big problem with the two authors you listed there.

Amity Shlaes is, at best a revisionist who misquoted and cherry-picked statistics from the 1920s and 1930s, going as far as completely discounting the Hoover administration from having any role in the Great Depression.
Just about every economist who isn't a member of the AEI, including several Nobel laureates in economics absolutely savaged Shlaes' assertions.

New Yorker review of "The Forgotten Man" by John Updike

Folsom, on the other hand, also claims robber barons were "constructive visionaries who benefited consumers and were integral to the development of industry". This belief alone puts him squarely in the "crackpot" camp for me.

As with just about every discipline (heh, think about the AGW discussions here), there are going to be folks on each side of the fence. I was only interested in the concepts they put forth - for discussion purposes.

On Schlaes, unless I've forgotten something (no pun intended), she definitely put Hoover to blame for the actions he took, and rightfully so.

But I do put credence in Morgenthau's statements, as he was pretty much an honorable man as far as I can determine, was there during those years, and was instrumental in helping formulate, then carry out, the policies to which he was referring.

Yeah, I've heard Fulsom on the robber baron stuff. Interesting take, but I think I'm with you that it's probably not the best way to think of those years.

;-)

212 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:45:10am

re: #195 marjoriemoon

We aren't the U.K. Are you talking about Muslim immigration?

No.

There are no African-Englishman, or African-British, etc.

Just British.

Why?

Because of the adoption of shared values and cultures. The shared idea of what Britain and her values are.

I believe that multi-culturalism DIVIDES society, and that's the aim of fundie multi-culturalist - more about weakening than preserving.

213 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:46:09am

re: #206 RadicalModerate

Dammit. As someone who grew up in the South during the 1960s and 1970s, my dog-whistle detector is going off bigtime right now, as "multiculturalism" was a favorite term used by the neo-segregationists.

Are you calling me a racist?

214 RogueOne  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:47:15am

re: #212 Ben Hur

No.

There are no African-Englishman, or African-British, etc.

Just British.

Why?

Because of the adoption of shared values and cultures. The shared idea of what Britain and her values are.

I believe that multi-culturalism DIVIDES society, and that's the aim of fundie multi-culturalist - more about weakening than preserving.

I started to say the same thing, only it was so badly worded I deleted it before posting. Thanks for saying it with clarity.

215 erraticsphinx  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:47:18am

re: #212 Ben Hur


Fundamentalist multi culturalism? What?

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:48:13am

re: #193 Ben Hur

Yes. The bolded is what he is saying.

He is not saying to deny black people the vote.

Well, first, he is an asshole for saying so. The arrogance and sense of entitlement contained in that statement is nauseating.

And while he is not saying to deny black people the vote, he is saying to apply testing to the vote--something used in the not-so-long-ago past to deny black people the vote--, he is saying to do so because a Democrat who got above 90% of the black vote is seen by him as illegitimate--I'm seeing some problems here.

217 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:48:22am

re: #200 iceweasel

Unfortunately when I think "Britain", I think about the BNP. I'm sure that isn't who you ally yourself with in any way at all, but I don't know what you mean by multiculturalism or what aspects of it you dislike or what you propose. But we can have that conversation at some other point.

I absolutely don't mean the type that the pigs of BNP means.

Those types have taken my position and use it for anti-immgration, etc.

I am not anti-legal immigration at all.

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:48:41am

re: #194 perkypauly

If one can not read or write than how`can the prospective voter understand the issues presented?

Jesus, read the thread.

219 subsailor68  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:48:47am

Well, guys, chores call. Hey, I've really, really enjoyed the conversation, and look forward to chatting with you all again soon.

On the economy....heck, I don't have a clue, but then it's not important that I do. Our political leaders on the other hand....

Guess we'll be finding out!

Everyone have a terrific evening and a wonderful weekend!

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:49:45am

re: #201 Ben Hur

It's a conversation I would love to have in person, actually, because I have no time to write out a paper online.

The crassest (?) way I've seen it summarized is multi-culturalism is celebrating someone else' nationalism.

That's not how it's defined by anyone except people who want to discredit the Latino studies department.

221 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:49:56am

re: #212 Ben Hur

I'm sorry, but I don't think you know much about Britain or British culture. The people in the UK who yammer on about 'preserving british culture' really do tend to be in the BNP or attracted to that kind of crap.

222 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:49:58am

re: #207 Guanxi88

Common religion, certainly; common language, by and large; common cultural referrants, certainly.

Okay. This may come as a shock to you, but many slaves, taken as adults, never learned English, never really understood Christianity, and kept their previous religion until the day they died.

They had an interaction with each other. But the black slaves had an entirely different culture than their owners. This is patently goddamn obvious.

Likewise, the American Indians who are part of this country, many of whom did assimilate, had their own culture. The previously French citizens in Louisiana had their own culture. Certainly the individual religious groups like the Quakers and the Amish had their own cultures.

Your claim that we had one culture at the beginning of America-- or at any point-- is categorically wrong. We were multicultural from the start, from the culture of black slave passing on what wisdom he could in his native language to his son, who, he knew, might lose that language in the space of a generation, to the Dutch Quaker with his family memories fresh of the struggles between Protestant and Catholic nations in Europe, to the proper Bostonian with direct lineage from Mayflower. We had lots of cultures pour into this country, and it has made us unutterably strong.

223 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:50:45am

re: #220 SanFranciscoZionist

That's not how it's defined by anyone except people who want to discredit the Latino studies department.

They didn't have one at my school.

224 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:51:56am

re: #217 Ben Hur

I absolutely don't mean the type that the pigs of BNP means.

Those types have taken my position and use it for anti-immgration, etc.

I am not anti-legal immigration at all.

I know you don't mean them, and I know you're not anti legal immigration, but seriously now, even when it was Londinium london was a port with people from all over.

225 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:52:14am

re: #212 Ben Hur

No.

There are no African-Englishman, or African-British, etc.

Just British.

Why?

Because of the adoption of shared values and cultures. The shared idea of what Britain and her values are.

I believe that multi-culturalism DIVIDES society, and that's the aim of fundie multi-culturalist - more about weakening than preserving.

The people who DON'T have a problem with immigration are not the ones spewing out the world "multiculturism". Who is dividing us then?

226 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:53:42am

re: #221 iceweasel

I'm sorry, but I don't think you know much about Britain or British culture. The people in the UK who yammer on about 'preserving british culture' really do tend to be in the BNP or attracted to that kind of crap.

I said nothing of preserving "British Culture."re: #198 recusancy

It's bigotry with new marketing.

It's bigotry to you because they aren't speaking about Zionists.

227 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:54:04am

re: #222 Obdicut

Okay. This may come as a shock to you, but many slaves, taken as adults, never learned English, never really understood Christianity, and kept their previous religion until the day they died.

They had an interaction with each other. But the black slaves had an entirely different culture than their owners. This is patently goddamn obvious.

Likewise, the American Indians who are part of this country, many of whom did assimilate, had their own culture. The previously French citizens in Louisiana had their own culture. Certainly the individual religious groups like the Quakers and the Amish had their own cultures.

Your claim that we had one culture at the beginning of America-- or at any point-- is categorically wrong. We were multicultural from the start, from the culture of black slave passing on what wisdom he could in his native language to his son, who, he knew, might lose that language in the space of a generation, to the Dutch Quaker with his family memories fresh of the struggles between Protestant and Catholic nations in Europe, to the proper Bostonian with direct lineage from Mayflower. We had lots of cultures pour into this country, and it has made us unutterably strong.

Read what I wrote again, and stop looking for things to offend you.

1) The slaves never learned English? Seems unlikely in the extreme, and, after the importation of new slaves was outlawed, is preposterous on its face. There are very few linguisitic survivals of African languages to be found in American English, irrespective of dialect.

2) If the slaves and their masters had such separate cultures, how do you account for the fact that they were each able to maintain their separation, though side-by-side for centuries? Again, preposterous.

3) Blah-blah, blah. It all got assimilated, and that rather quickly, into a predominantly WASP culture that tolerated the occasional sub-culture, each one of which, by the way, was at some pains to show how "American" they really were.

228 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:54:08am

Reality Check:
Many non-whites voted for Obama because he is not white.
Many whites voted against him for the same reason.

229 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:54:24am

re: #226 Ben Hur

It's bigotry to you because they aren't speaking about Zionists.

Whoa.

Don't know what happened there.

That was directed to Recunsy.

That first half was something else

230 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:55:09am

re: #228 Spare O'Lake

Reality Check:
Many non-whites voted for Obama because he is not white.
Many whites voted against him for the same reason.

And as Rush reminded us, Colin Powell endorsed Obama only because he was black...

231 recusancy  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:55:46am

re: #226 Ben Hur

It's bigotry to you because they aren't speaking about Zionists.

What?

232 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:56:54am

re: #138 Obdicut

Hrm. My grandmother's I don't know much about, since she denied Jewish heritage and was distant from most of her family other than her brother. Her family has been passing/assimilating as non-Jews for a long time, but it's traceable back to Ellis island-- they immigrated here from England, but that doesn't mean so much, could have just been where they were wehn they came. We know they were Sephardic because grandma spoke a little Ladino and her parents wrote whole letters in it, but grandma burned most of their stuff so we'll never know much more than that.

My grandfather we can trace back with certainty only to the kick-out of the Alhomed from Spain. We were there then, and we stayed through the inquisition. During the inquisition, family was slaughtered, lots converted, and some-- my branch-- were made into slaves/indentured servants to pay for the cost of their trials or just to pay the Inquisition, and sent to the Carribean. There it gets a little murky about when they exactly stop being indentured/slaves-- and whole swathes of the family die out-- but someone named Ortez is important enough to us that some of us still have his name. It's one of my middle names. We've pretty much figured out he was some minor government official who helped us in some way.

After that, that side of the family headed up into the US and out in South America, and those two branches pretty much lost touch with each other. I've done a little work to see if I can reconnect us, but not much.

The group that went up into the US spread out some-- and their numbers were never that big, that side of the family is very atypical and tended to only have one or two kids per generation, but the occasional six-kid group expanded it a little. Unfortunately, in the generation right before my grandfather's, a lot of them moved back into Europe, for various reasons. The religious ones amongst them were going to European universities to have Jewish teachers, which was more common in Europe then than it was in the US. The non-religious group had a textile concern that was becoming more and more Amsterdam/Paris based. Another group headed into Russia for reasons that nobody's very clear on.

So unfortunately most of my family was killed in WWII, either as US citizens or Russian citizens fighting over there or as Jews rounded up by the Germans and everyone else.

The family now consists of me, my mom, my second cousin and his daughter.

The story of the Maranos is fascinating to me. I have been working on a short story about such a family in the South west. If I live long enough I may be able to finish it.

233 Boondock St. Bender  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:58:01am

re: #230 ralphieboy

ahhh rush...pop him some oxycotin and he shall show us the way!

234 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:58:01am

re: #224 iceweasel

I know you don't mean them, and I know you're not anti legal immigration, but seriously now, even when it was Londinium london was a port with people from all over.

I know that and that's great.

My point is in Britain, people are British because of shared values, etc etc.

Not because of a hyphen.

235 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:58:18am

re: #231 recusancy

What?

Sorry.

Had you confused with someone else.

Doing way to much at once.

236 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:58:50am

re: #227 Guanxi88

The slaves never learned English?

What I actually said:

many slaves, taken as adults, never learned English

2) If the slaves and their masters had such separate cultures, how do you account for the fact that they were each able to maintain their separation, though side-by-side for centuries? Again, preposterous.

You are seriously claiming that white slave owners and black slaves shared the same culture. That's insane.

I have no idea what you mean by accounting for maintaining their separation. Can you restate that?

3) Blah-blah, blah. It all got assimilated, and that rather quickly, into a predominantly WASP culture that tolerated the occasional sub-culture, each one of which, by the way, was at some pains to show how "American" they really were.

I like how you demonstrated that and all, instead of just asserting it. It really convinced me.

However, it's kind of pointless to argue with someone who is seriously asserting that black slaves shared the same culture as their white masters. That's such an amazingly idiotic thing to say.

237 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:01:28pm

re: #148 Obdicut

Thanks! Most of the other genealogy sites are run by the mormons, and I don't want to deal with my ancestors getting baptized. That's just creepy.

I hadn't seen that one before. Thank you very much!

They aren't supposed to 'convert' you or your ancestors if they know it involves Jews. Or so it is said.

238 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:01:57pm

re: #228 Spare O'Lake

Reality Check:
Many non-whites voted for Obama because he is not white.
Many whites voted against him for the same reason.

98% of Blacks voted for him. The vast majority of those people are Democrats who would have voted for a white Dem in the same position. The thing is, Black people who had not previously voted decided they would vote for Obama. One could say they related to his ethnicity OR one could say he was an inspiration which he was.

Tancredo would be kicked out on his little racist booty if he said "Black people shouldn't be allowed to vote until given a test" so he says it all covered up with bullshit but it doesn't change a thing.

239 erraticsphinx  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:02:07pm

re: #236 Obdicut

Of course they shared the same culture! It was their "shared values" that kept them so BFF4evah!
///

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:02:23pm

re: #212 Ben Hur

No.

There are no African-Englishman, or African-British, etc.

Just British.

Why?

Because of the adoption of shared values and cultures. The shared idea of what Britain and her values are.

I believe that multi-culturalism DIVIDES society, and that's the aim of fundie multi-culturalist - more about weakening than preserving.

That's not true, actually, about England. People who are not ethnic British are defined by their ethnicity far more than in the States, in my experience.

241 Boondock St. Bender  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:02:47pm

re: #236 Obdicut

well...
one did the work the other got the profit
one got the lash the other held it
one was held in bondage the other had the key...

same culture just different ends of it.

242 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:03:44pm

re: #234 Ben Hur

I think the British are a bit like the Afghani. As long as no one is slagging them as a group they do plenty of slagging among themselves: English vs Irish vs Welsh vs Scots.

Plus if you go back far enough there have been multiple attempts by the controlling faction to repressively force assimilation; e.g. banning tartans or the use of Gaelic.

/ Yes -- pushing it a bit, but at least the British have gotten past using AK-47s to settle their disputes. They use football instead.

243 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:03:47pm

re: #234 Ben Hur

I know that and that's great.

My point is in Britain, people are British because of shared values, etc etc.

Not because of a hyphen.

Even that isn't true. "British" can mean Irish (sometimes) or Scottish or English, and you better believe people get pissy if you get those wrong, or use British and English interchangeably. They don't happen to use a hyphen because they weren't explicitly founded as a nation of immigrants, like we were-- but there is no such thing as a monolithic 'British' culture except in the overheated imaginations of people like the BNP, who are talking about a long ago golden 'culture' that has never existed in reality.

It might look monolithic compared to America, but so does every other society on earth compared to American culture.

244 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:05:41pm

re: #213 Ben Hur

Are you calling me a racist?

If I thought you were a racist, I would have directly said so - I tend to choose my words carefully. However, espousing the evils of "multiculturalism" was one of the code phrases that was pretty prevalent in the southern US (along with the catchy "reverse discrimination") during the post Civil Rights Acts era used by the racists' commentaries and literature.

245 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:06:53pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

That's not true, actually, about England. People who are not ethnic British are defined by their ethnicity far more than in the States, in my experience.

Absolutely. And the word black is used there to mean South Asian descent, and 'blacks' are disparaged in terms that sound exactly like the bigoted fucks here.
The racial/ethnic resentment in Britain tracks their own patterns of immigration. You won't find people railing about mexicans, but you better believe you find it about people from India, Pakistan, etc. And it's not even anything to do with Islam or terrorism but to do with 'ethnic purity' and their own historical patterns of immigration.

246 webevintage  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:07:31pm

re: #8 Obdicut

Whereas I just blame immigrants for America's existence.

Damn those immigrants...

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:07:32pm

IIRC, studies have shown that second- and third- generation Jamaicans or Africans in Britain still are unlikely to call themselves British, regardless of their passports or citizenship. Fifth-generation Brits tell me that they are considered "Jewish" not "English" by friends and coworkers. Neighborhoods in London are enormously ethnically divided. They are NOT a melting pot, and I'm interested to hear that they are apparently being presented that way.

248 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:07:49pm

re: #156 Obdicut

Actually, they should amalgamate, not just assimilate. We're enriched by the various cultures that join together to make up America. Chinese New Years celebrated in San Francisco Chinatown is a beautiful thing.

So is Cinco De Mayo.

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:08:29pm

re: #245 iceweasel

Absolutely. And the word black is used there to mean South Asian descent, and 'blacks' are disparaged in terms that sound exactly like the bigoted fucks here.
The racial/ethnic resentment in Britain tracks their own patterns of immigration. You won't find people railing about mexicans, but you better believe you find it about people from India, Pakistan, etc. And it's not even anything to do with Islam or terrorism but to do with 'ethnic purity' and their own historical patterns of immigration.

The shit I heard about Hindus while I was living in London pretty much put paid for me to pretty ideas that it was all about concerns about Islam.

250 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:08:49pm

re: #242 oaktree

I think the British are a bit like the Afghani. As long as no one is slagging them as a group they do plenty of slagging among themselves: English vs Irish vs Welsh vs Scots.

Plus if you go back far enough there have been multiple attempts by the controlling faction to repressively force assimilation; e.g. banning tartans or the use of Gaelic.

/ Yes -- pushing it a bit, but at least the British have gotten past using AK-47s to settle their disputes. They use football instead.

Exactly. I totally forgot to mention the Welsh, lol. And sectarian hate is played out all over via football!

251 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:09:38pm

re: #236 Obdicut

"However, it's kind of pointless to argue with someone who is seriously asserting that black slaves shared the same culture as their white masters. That's such an amazingly idiotic thing to say."

No more idiotic than to assert, contrary to all evidence, that they did not share a culture.

(You taking lessons on debating from LVQ or something?

As for the separation - do you honestly imagine that there were no exchanges, culturally or otherwise, between slave and master? Hell, the very system in which they were locked - chattel slavery - was itself a cultural construct. Of course they were tied culturally, as would be any two populations who lived side-by-side for a couple hundred years.

252 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:11:00pm

re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist

The shit I heard about Hindus while I was living in London pretty much put paid for me to pretty ideas that it was all about concerns about Islam.

Bingo. Unbelievable. Islam probably provides a new element now but their issues have nothing to do with it, but with this idea of an 'pure' and 'ethnic' Britain.
And that's exactly what I've heard from Jewish friends there as well, btw. My closest one lives in Tel Aviv now for that reason.

253 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:12:28pm

re: #238 marjoriemoon

98% of Blacks voted for him. The vast majority of those people are Democrats who would have voted for a white Dem in the same position. The thing is, Black people who had not previously voted decided they would vote for Obama. One could say they related to his ethnicity OR one could say he was an inspiration which he was.

Tancredo would be kicked out on his little racist booty if he said "Black people shouldn't be allowed to vote until given a test" so he says it all covered up with bullshit but it doesn't change a thing.

No one seriously maintains that the right to vote should be contingent on completing a civics course. Although a nice-sounding idea in theory, such a universal requirement would be completely impractical to admister and open to tremendous abuse.

So either Tancredo is a lone voice of incredibly naive idealism, or he is simply part of the racist chorus.
I vote racist.

254 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:12:57pm

re: #245 iceweasel

Absolutely. And the word black is used there to mean South Asian descent, and 'blacks' are disparaged in terms that sound exactly like the bigoted fucks here.
The racial/ethnic resentment in Britain tracks their own patterns of immigration. You won't find people railing about mexicans, but you better believe you find it about people from India, Pakistan, etc. And it's not even anything to do with Islam or terrorism but to do with 'ethnic purity' and their own historical patterns of immigration.

That's what I call Nationalism which leads to terrible, terrible things.

255 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:14:27pm

re: #161 Ben Hur

I'm not "sticking up for him" in the way you mean.

I am not a Tancredo supporter.

Just conveying how I see it.


I wasn't referring to you at all. I was a Tancredo supporter at one time.
He totally disappointed me when he told an interviewer that he lost money in the Madoff debacle. Therefore Uncle Sam should return the money he lost.

256 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:14:28pm

re: #254 marjoriemoon

That's what I call Nationalism which leads to terrible, terrible things.

Damn straight.

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:15:07pm

re: #252 iceweasel

Bingo. Unbelievable. Islam probably provides a new element now but their issues have nothing to do with it, but with this idea of an 'pure' and 'ethnic' Britain.
And that's exactly what I've heard from Jewish friends there as well, btw. My closest one lives in Tel Aviv now for that reason.

I love Britain. London is one of my favorite places on earth.

I thank God I am an American.

258 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:15:47pm

re: #245 iceweasel

re: #250 iceweasel

re: #250 iceweasel

Quickly, before I respond to the earlier, I'm Not referring to how bigots refer to British minorities. I don't think Pakistani British refer to themselves that way or insist that others do.

And about Wales: Football?? There's a huge Rugby match this weekend.

England vs Wales!

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:15:53pm

re: #255 Blueheron

I wasn't referring to you at all. I was a Tancredo supporter at one time.
He totally disappointed me when he told an interviewer that he lost money in the Madoff debacle. Therefore Uncle Sam should return the money he lost.

Because Uncle Sam is a partner with Madoff?

260 Locker  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:16:39pm

re: #250 iceweasel

Exactly. I totally forgot to mention the Welsh, lol. And sectarian hate is played out all over via football!

You'll Never Walk Alone - GO CELTICS!

261 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:17:50pm

re: #253 Spare O'Lake

No one seriously maintains that the right to vote should be contingent on completing a civics course. Although a nice-sounding idea in theory, such a universal requirement would be completely impractical to admister and open to tremendous abuse.

So either Tancredo is a lone voice of incredibly naive idealism, or he is simply part of the racist chorus.
I vote racist.

Absolutely part of the racist chorus, but I'm not so sure that people don't take this seriously. I've heard it plenty of times, and from some pretty bright folks who think we should have a test before we vote.

It's even worse for Tancredo to say it if it's something that's not ever going to happen. It means he's just pandering to the racists then.

262 Ben G. Hazi  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:18:06pm

re: #22 ArchangelMichael

The past of LGF is riddled with the carcasses of the damned banned who couldn't keep up.

Nah, most of the damned knew their history, they just tended to twist or misrepresent it for their own ends, IMO.

263 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:18:39pm

re: #172 Ben Hur

Being anti-multi-culturalism doesn't mean hate your Portugese neighbor.

That's right. We can celebrate our ancestry but we still need to operate within the larger community called America.

264 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:18:46pm

Ben Hur, you didn't answer that I saw it.

What do you think Tancredo is referring to as "multiculturism"?

265 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:18:56pm

My husband and I showed up in Dublin as sightseers the weekend that Armagh played Kerry. My husband had not been totally prepared for the World of Irish Football. We were staying at a B&B near the field. I think it was the kid with a stuffed replica of the Armagh Chalice mounted on his head that made him realize this was a whole new thing.

266 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:19:57pm

re: #263 Blueheron

That's right. We can celebrate our ancestry but we still need to operate within the larger community called America.

WHHHAAAA?? I love you. I celebrate you, but I'm really against your being here?? What bullshit.

267 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:20:06pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

I love Britain. London is one of my favorite places on earth.

I thank God I am an American.

London is one of my favourite tourism destinations in the world.
The food alone can kill you.

268 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:22:25pm

re: #264 marjoriemoon

Ben Hur, you didn't answer that I saw it.

What do you think Tancredo is referring to as "multiculturism"?

I don't even remember anymore!

Gah!

I'll tell you what I believe:

I am all in favor of cultural diversity, the integration of various cultures into the whole, creating a more rich and diverse patchwork, not separating all groups.

269 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:22:26pm

re: #266 marjoriemoon

WHHHAAA?? I love you. I celebrate you, but I'm really against your being here?? What bullshit.

Note: multi-culturalism does NOT mean a rejection of America. Never has.

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:22:57pm

re: #268 Ben Hur

I don't even remember anymore!

Gah!

I'll tell you what I believe:

I am all in favor of cultural diversity, the integration of various cultures into the whole, creating a more rich and diverse patchwork, not separating all groups.

Yeah. That's multi-culturalism, dude!

271 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:23:28pm

re: #266 marjoriemoon

WHHHAAA?? I love you. I celebrate you, but I'm really against your being here?? What bullshit.

That's not even remotely what he/she (I can't keep track anymore) posted.

272 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:23:40pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. That's multi-culturalism, dude!

No it's not.

273 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:24:51pm

re: #258 Ben Hur

re: #250 iceweasel

re: #250 iceweasel

Quickly, before I respond to the earlier, I'm Not referring to how bigots refer to British minorities. I don't think Pakistani British refer to themselves that way or insist that others do.

And about Wales: Football?? There's a huge Rugby match this weekend.

England vs Wales!

Oh man don't get me started-- there was some game awhile ago where a guy in a pub said if Wales wins I'll cut my balls off. They did win.

Went home, cut em off, came back to show them to his friends at the pub.

274 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:25:36pm

re: #272 Ben Hur

No it's not.

What do you think it is? And why?

275 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:25:45pm

re: #268 Ben Hur

I don't even remember anymore!

Gah!

I'll tell you what I believe:

I am all in favor of cultural diversity, the integration of various cultures into the whole, creating a more rich and diverse patchwork, not separating all groups.

Here's a person who refers to the CULT of multiculturism, who obviously means that people who like diversity are a bunch of CULTISTS. So who is separating people? Me who LIKES to hang out with lots of different people (and I do) or he who calls me a cultist?

Bullshit meter on high today!!

276 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:26:28pm

re: #274 SanFranciscoZionist

What do you think it is? And why?

I can't just now.

Can we all schedule a conference call for sometime next week??

277 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:26:53pm

re: #273 iceweasel

Reminds me of the spoof Mastercard commercial about what Red Sox fans would give up in exchange for the Sox winning the World Series. They even got Denis Leary to play along with it. The guy coming up to him with the hedge clippers is classic... :)

278 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:26:53pm

re: #269 SanFranciscoZionist

Note: multi-culturalism does NOT mean a rejection of America. Never has.

Rejecting multi-culturism means rejecting America to me.

279 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:27:35pm

re: #275 marjoriemoon

Here's a person who refers to the CULT of multiculturism, who obviously means that people who like diversity are a bunch of CULTISTS. So who is separating people? Me who LIKES to hang out with lots of different people (and I do) or he who calls me a cultist?

Bullshit meter on high today!!

Don't mistake my view on multi-culturalism as a movement as support for what Tancredo said.

280 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:27:58pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

I love Britain. London is one of my favorite places on earth.

I thank God I am an American.

Ditto, but I'll insert some appropriate atheistic statement there. :)

Jimmah already knows Thanksgiving and Fourth of July are now mandatory holidays at least in our little corner of the world there...looking forward to the first BBQ!

281 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:28:22pm

re: #276 Ben Hur

I can't just now.

Can we all schedule a conference call for sometime next week??

Okay, but check out these definitions.

282 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:28:24pm

re: #276 Ben Hur

I can't just now.

Can we all schedule a conference call for sometime next week??

I think it should be by video so we can see if we're all white enough to attend.

I'm a little shit aren't I.

I gotta go anyway :)

283 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:28:36pm

re: #279 Ben Hur

Don't mistake my view on multi-culturalism as a movement as support for what Tancredo said.

Well I'm trying not to, but you're making it really hard!

284 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:29:36pm

re: #281 SanFranciscoZionist

Okay, but check out these definitions.

Damn feerrr-in-ers.

285 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:30:39pm

re: #269 SanFranciscoZionist

Note: multi-culturalism does NOT mean a rejection of America. Never has.

To some it does.

An American flying an American flag, or wearing a flag pin, is seen by certains as cheesy patriotism (at the least) and (uh oh) Nationalism (at the worst) but an immigrant flying the flag of their former home is not. It's a celebration of their culture, etc etc.

286 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:31:47pm

re: #282 marjoriemoon

I think it should be by video so we can see if we're all white enough to attend.

I'm a little shit aren't I.

I gotta go anyway :)

According to the people you are mistaking ME for, I'm not white.

287 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:32:00pm

re: #285 Ben Hur

What if they fly both an American flag *and* a foreign flag?

288 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:33:08pm

re: #287 oaktree

What if they fly both an American flag *and* a foreign flag?

Is that a Jewish joke?

//////////////////////yes, I can make that joke.

289 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:33:49pm

re: #287 oaktree

What if they fly both an American flag *and* a foreign flag?

What if they just object to people who use the American flag as a sign of faux-patriotism, and as some kind of cover for a Nationalist (in marjorie moon's) sense?

UK skinheads looove waving the Union Jack. Just sayin.

290 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:33:55pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

Because Uncle Sam is a partner with Madoff?

I suppose he thought he should be 'bailed out' along with everyone else.

291 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:34:11pm

There's section in Ralph David Abernathy's autobiography And The Walls Came Tumbling Down about his experience with literacy tests. He and some friends went to register to vote, and were handed some forms by a little old lady. His friends left some sections blank, and were "flunked" by the lady. Abernathy filled in the test with any nonsense that came to mind, and the lady passed him. He then proceeded to the oral test. He was told to recite the Thirteenth Amendment verbatim. Realizing that the old lady didn't really understand the test she was giving, he simply recited the lyrics to My Country Tis Of Thee. Rather annoyed, the lady said, "And you better had known it or you wouldn't have passed."

292 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:36:13pm

re: #266 marjoriemoon

WHHHAAA?? I love you. I celebrate you, but I'm really against your being here?? What bullshit.

Oh please Marjorie. How far will; I get in a job interview using anything but English?

293 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:36:35pm

re: #289 iceweasel

Going back to Ben Hur's original statement it's all a hypothetical anyways. "Some people" interpret it that way. So some will interpret any step or display as whatever they want it to be. Proper patriotism, false flag display to fit in, etc. etc.

Those who seek to find umbrage often do not have to go far to find it.

294 Ben Hur  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:36:40pm

Very much enjoyed this debate.

295 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:38:26pm

re: #293 oaktree


Those who seek to find umbrage often do not have to go far to find it.

cf. Outrageously outrageous outrage of the day, etc.

296 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:39:17pm

re: #269 SanFranciscoZionist

Note: multi-culturalism does NOT mean a rejection of America. Never has.

Thanks SFZ.

297 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:40:00pm

re: #293 oaktree

Going back to Ben Hur's original statement it's all a hypothetical anyways. "Some people" interpret it that way. So some will interpret any step or display as whatever they want it to be. Proper patriotism, false flag display to fit in, etc. etc.

Those who seek to find umbrage often do not have to go far to find it.

Sure, that's true. I'd still like to know what Ben thinks multiculturalism is and what he doesn't like about it at some point, when he has time. It's a boogieman on the right and a lot of people (not Ben, I am sure) use it to fuel racist and bigoted sentiment. I suspect most of them don't in fact know what it means.

298 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:47:39pm

re: #251 Guanxi88

"However, it's kind of pointless to argue with someone who is seriously asserting that black slaves shared the same culture as their white masters. That's such an amazingly idiotic thing to say."

No more idiotic than to assert, contrary to all evidence, that they did not share a culture.

(You taking lessons on debating from LVQ or something?

As for the separation - do you honestly imagine that there were no exchanges, culturally or otherwise, between slave and master? Hell, the very system in which they were locked - chattel slavery - was itself a cultural construct. Of course they were tied culturally, as would be any two populations who lived side-by-side for a couple hundred years.

Yes, the fact that they influenced each other doesn't at all require that they loved or approved of each other. Consider the case of the ancient Hebrews, during their exile in Babylon. There they soaked up some Zoroastrianism, and came back with the seeds for the idea of Satan.

299 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:51:00pm

In Canada we are taught to contrast the American "melting pot" with the Canadian "cultural mosaic" aka "multiculturalism".

When we Canadians sit up here and watch our Quebec separatists trying to tear the country apart, many of us wish we had more of a melting pot.

When we Canadians see certain ethnic communities isolating themselves from the rest of Canadian society by bringing their ethnic disputes over here and acting them out on our streets; or using private schools where the main language of instruction is not English; or putting foreign language signs on their storefronts (without any English), many of us wish we had more of a melting pot.

300 Pacific moderate  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:51:31pm

Would a literacy test for voting require that you correctly spell "oligarchy"?

301 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:52:20pm

re: #251 Guanxi88

"However, it's kind of pointless to argue with someone who is seriously asserting that black slaves shared the same culture as their white masters. That's such an amazingly idiotic thing to say."
No more idiotic than to assert, contrary to all evidence, that they did not share a culture.

Isn't the key to this argument the word "same"? Inner-city inhabitants share a culture with, say, the policeman or politicians who serve them, but to say they live the same culture wouldn't be accurate at all.

302 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 12:57:30pm

re: #301 torrentprime

Isn't the key to this argument the word "same"? Inner-city inhabitants share a culture with, say, the policeman or politicians who serve them, but to say they live the same culture wouldn't be accurate at all.

Of course the slaves and the masters shared a culture...the slaves planted, grew, picked and baled the cotton, while the masters sold it and grew fat off the profits.
One culture, but two classes.

303 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:03:39pm

re: #251 Guanxi88


Of course they were tied culturally, as would be any two populations who lived side-by-side for a couple hundred years.

So you've now moved the goalposts to 'they were tied culturally'. Cool. Yes, the two separate cultures were tied culturally.

We have had tons of different cultures pour into America, none completely assimilating, none completely resisting transformation. The black slaves-- and later, poor blacks in the south-- had their own culture. They had their own religion-- they did not worship in the same churches as whites did. They definitely had their own musical traditions, marriage traditions. They had their own sections of town, their own celebrations.

Similarly, so did other groups. The Lutheran Norwegians and Swedes out settling Minnesota had some severely different cultural values than the Chinese in California. The divide between Catholic and Protestant remained, if much less bloody than recently in Europe, a significant deal.

We were all Americans, but America was not and is not a single culture. It cannot be described without describing the constant cross-informing of the cultures that make it up.

304 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:04:38pm

re: #299 Spare O'Lake

In Canada we are taught to contrast the American "melting pot" with the Canadian "cultural mosaic" aka "multiculturalism".

When we Canadians sit up here and watch our Quebec separatists trying to tear the country apart, many of us wish we had more of a melting pot.

When we Canadians see certain ethnic communities isolating themselves from the rest of Canadian society by bringing their ethnic disputes over here and acting them out on our streets; or using private schools where the main language of instruction is not English; or putting foreign language signs on their storefronts (without any English), many of us wish we had more of a melting pot.

Even if a Muslim wanted to, how would he assimilate with, say, Canadian national identity? You can't assimilate with a nullity, which is what the modern multicultural state boils down to. It's much easier to dismantle a society than to put anything new and lasting in its place. And across much of the developed world that's what's going on right now. Multiculturalism makes a nation no more than a holding pen. In the absence of cultural confidence, demography will decide the future. Or in the unimprovable summation of James C. Bennett: "Democracy, immigration, multiculturalism. Pick any two."
-- Mark Steyn, America Alone, 2006

305 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:05:50pm

re: #303 Obdicut

I'd point out that you were the one who decided to make african-american slaves the test case, not I.

I was making the broader point that the West, up until comparatively recently, understood itself as a multi-ethnic civilization united by a universal culture. I wasn't aware that this was even a controversial position.

306 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:07:39pm

re: #303 Obdicut

So you've now moved the goalposts to 'they were tied culturally'. Cool. Yes, the two separate cultures were tied culturally.

We have had tons of different cultures pour into America, none completely assimilating, none completely resisting transformation. The black slaves-- and later, poor blacks in the south-- had their own culture. They had their own religion-- they did not worship in the same churches as whites did. They definitely had their own musical traditions, marriage traditions. They had their own sections of town, their own celebrations.

Similarly, so did other groups. The Lutheran Norwegians and Swedes out settling Minnesota had some severely different cultural values than the Chinese in California. The divide between Catholic and Protestant remained, if much less bloody than recently in Europe, a significant deal.

We were all Americans, but America was not and is not a single culture. It cannot be described without describing the constant cross-informing of the cultures that make it up.

So, to clarify then, we're just a big old polyglot boarding house? Nothing but a shared address makes us Americans?

I mean, are you honestly suggesting that geography and commerce alone made and make this a nation?

307 celticdragon  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:09:04pm

re: #6 iceweasel

The raw story link I gave upthread gives a little background on the literacy tests. They were supposed to be selected at random, but they would give the hardest ones to black voters routinely. There are sample questions there. Anyone could be made to fail it.

Also in some places the tests would then be reviewed privately by 3 'examiners', -- who could judge a white voter 'qualified' even if he answered every question wrong, and could judge a black voter 'unqualified' even if he answered every one right.

So I don't think there's anything at all ironic about Tancredo's proposal. He really does mean what he's saying, and what he's saying is that people who don't vote the way he would like aren't qualified to vote.

Mississippi Senator Bilbo back in the 1940's was outraged that any African Americans at all might be voting, and suggested he could tell the voting district committees how to make sure that no African American ever would vote.

One of the most laughable and yet insulting questions in these tests was:

"How many bubbles are in a bar of soap?"


No shit....no answer, of course...and you don't get to vote.

Fuck Tancredo. Seriously.


Senator Bilbo got in some trouble with the Senate when he overtly suggested that African Americans who tried to vote should be lynched.

More historical info on this disgrace to our polity here.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

308 Silvergirl  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:11:44pm

re: #307 celticdragon

Senatoer Bilbo is ruining the reputation of Hobbits everywhere.

309 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:11:54pm

re: #305 Guanxi88

I was making the broader point that the West, up until comparatively recently, understood itself as a multi-ethnic civilization united by a universal culture. I wasn't aware that this was even a controversial position.

It's beyond controversial, all the way to laughable. Now you're expanding it to the "West" had a common culture? When people say "Western culture", what they mean, basically, is Christianity ,scientific rationality (so kind of inherently tense) and some version of a democratic republic. If that's your criteria for culture, then why not just talk about 'human culture' and be done with it?

The West does not, nor has ever had, a universal culture. I don't know anyone looking at the history of Europeans attempting to impose their culture on each other through warfare can possibly think that.

310 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:11:57pm

re: #306 Guanxi88

So, to clarify then, we're just a big old polyglot boarding house? Nothing but a shared address makes us Americans?

I mean, are you honestly suggesting that geography and commerce alone made and make this a nation?

I call that a radical interpretation of the text. Governmental values/framework play a part - natives and immigrants can share a love and respect for the legal structure in which they live, which would (one assumes this is necessary for the love and respect part) support and protect their right to their individual culture and cultural values. You left that part out of your "geography and commerce" summation.

311 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:12:50pm

re: #300 Pacific moderate

Nah, just "hanging chad". Double Vote. And Butterfly Ballot. :)

312 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:13:22pm

It's not even dogwhistle anymore. It's a fucking pig-calling contest.

313 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:13:41pm

re: #309 Obdicut


The West does not, nor has ever had, a universal culture. I don't know anyone looking at the history of Europeans attempting to impose their culture on each other through warfare can possibly think that.

A japanese would.

A chinese would.

An african would.

In short, anyone but a european would.

314 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:14:49pm

re: #306 Guanxi88

I mean, are you honestly suggesting that geography and commerce alone made and make this a nation?

Can you point to anything I've said that suggests that please?

Philosophy of government unites us-- barely. A shared ideal of a multicultural society, a society where you can have your own religion, speak of your own beliefs, have your own gatherings, and be respected and NOT forced to submit to the dominant culture in all things, is part of many people's ideal for America.


There is another American culture that has grown out of an older, darker past dominant culture that would like to reject all other cultures than the original WASP influences and declare that that select group of founders (who were themselves at least a little more diverse than a single culture anyway) define the only real American culture. They are wrong.

315 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:15:02pm

re: #285 Ben Hur

To some it does.

An American flying an American flag, or wearing a flag pin, is seen by certains as cheesy patriotism (at the least) and (uh oh) Nationalism (at the worst) but an immigrant flying the flag of their former home is not. It's a celebration of their culture, etc etc.

And to certain people, any brown-skinned person with an accent is not an American. We try not to let ignorant people define terms for us.

316 celticdragon  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:16:58pm

re: #308 Silvergirl

Senatoer Bilbo is ruining the reputation of Hobbits everywhere.

A satire was written that was set after the events of the LOTR where a populist and racist hobbit in the Shire.


Heh!

Andy Duncan's short story "Senator Bilbo", set after the events of Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, describes an unnamed populist and racist Hobbit politician.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

317 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:17:03pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

That's not true, actually, about England. People who are not ethnic British are defined by their ethnicity far more than in the States, in my experience.

Sure seemed that way to me when I was in Great Britian.

318 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:17:54pm

re: #305 Guanxi88

I'd point out that you were the one who decided to make african-american slaves the test case, not I.

I was making the broader point that the West, up until comparatively recently, understood itself as a multi-ethnic civilization united by a universal culture. I wasn't aware that this was even a controversial position.

There is no universal culture to the "west."

It's not that it's controversial, it's that it's not true.

319 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:18:11pm

re: #313 Guanxi88

It's so great that you can speak for the Japanese, the Chinese, and the Africans.

Except that I've had plenty of friends from Japan remark on the incredible variety of cultures in America alone, and how differently that contrasts with the similarity between places in Japan. And two Chinese friends with strong feelings about how the culture of Germany differs from the culture of Poland, since they got to work in both places in rapid succession before coming here.

320 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:19:54pm

re: #319 Obdicut

It's so great that you can speak for the Japanese, the Chinese, and the Africans.

Except that I've had plenty of friends from Japan remark on the incredible variety of cultures in America alone, and how differently that contrasts with the similarity between places in Japan. And two Chinese friends with strong feelings about how the culture of Germany differs from the culture of Poland, since they got to work in both places in rapid succession before coming here.

And all of your friends would not deny that there was greater commonality within and between - say, a German and a Pole - than between, say, a German and a Japanese.

Or perhaps they would, if it suited your argument. I don't presume to speak for them.

321 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:20:50pm

re: #318 WindUpBird

There is no universal culture to the "west."

It's not that it's controversial, it's that it's not true.

Well, you might want to let anthropologists and historians know it, and it might not hurt to let the deconstructionists and crit-lit theoreticians know it, 'cause they certainly seem to think otherwise.

322 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:24:11pm

re: #321 Guanxi88

Well, you might want to let anthropologists and historians know it, and it might not hurt to let the deconstructionists and crit-lit theoreticians know it, 'cause they certainly seem to think otherwise.

UNIVERSAL. Culture. Sorry, not buying it.

I think "multiculturalism" has become a GOP boogeyman, a meme, just one brick in the many planks of the GOP identity, which trends heavily towards white people who are afraid of anything unfamiliar to them. And Tancredo is sort of the guy that's saying it blatantly as opposed to slyly dogwhistling it.

323 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:24:17pm

re: #320 Guanxi88

And all of your friends would not deny that there was greater commonality within and between - say, a German and a Pole - than between, say, a German and a Japanese.

Or perhaps they would, if it suited your argument. I don't presume to speak for them.

Of course they would. More commonality does not equal 'same culture'. Your goalposts are now just strapped to your back as you run around.

And you did presume to speak for all Japanese, all Chinese, and all Africans just a moment ago. You asserted what their viewpoint was.

324 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:24:50pm

And, on a larger, rather "META-" scale, let me point out that debates over whether there is or is not an American Culture, and why or why not, is a distinctly Western thing to do. One would be hard-pressed to find such a discussion among those who did not descend - intellectually if not physically - from the enlightenment and the preceding intellectual tradition.

325 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:24:54pm

re: #309 Obdicut

The West does not, nor has ever had, a universal culture. I don't know anyone looking at the history of Europeans attempting to impose their culture on each other through warfare can possibly think that.

I don't know what you mean by "universal", but there certainly has been a common culture for a few little centuries or millennia. Just because you hate Christianity doesn't mean you get to vaporize it to make a ridiculous point.

No doubt you don't believe the same thing about Confucian, Buddhist or Islamic culture. If you do, you have obliterated the meaning of the word.

Carry on.

326 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:26:15pm

re: #325 Cato the Elder

I don't know what you mean by "universal", but there certainly has been a common culture for a few little centuries or millennia. Just because you hate Christianity doesn't mean you get to vaporize it to make a ridiculous point.

No doubt you don't believe the same thing about Confucian, Buddhist or Islamic culture. If you do, you have obliterated the meaning of the word.

Carry on.

Cato, my uncultured, uncivilized friend! Don't confuse the lad with facts. Let him rage against me, if it amuses him.

327 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:27:57pm

re: #325 Cato the Elder

I don't in the least bit hate Christianity, Cato. Nor is all of Western culture Christian-- Roman culture, pre-Christian, is still one of the largest influences on many Western countries. As is distinctly non-Christian ancient Greece.

And did you not notice me continually pointing out Protestantism and Catholicism as a key sign of different cultures in Europe?


No doubt you don't believe the same thing about Confucian, Buddhist or Islamic culture. If you do, you have obliterated the meaning of the word.

You make the dumbest assumptions about me.

328 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:28:25pm

re: #322 WindUpBird

UNIVERSAL. Culture. Sorry, not buying it.

I think "multiculturalism" has become a GOP boogeyman, a meme, just one brick in the many planks of the GOP identity, which trends heavily towards white people who are afraid of anything unfamiliar to them. And Tancredo is sort of the guy that's saying it blatantly as opposed to slyly dogwhistling it.

And, oddly enough, I'd argue that multiculturalism lays the groundwork for the expansion of Western Culture into a final embrace of all things human - a truly universal culture.

329 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:31:26pm

re: #327 Obdicut

Nor is all of Western culture Christian-- Roman culture, pre-Christian, is still one of the largest influences on many Western countries. As is distinctly non-Christian ancient Greece.


So, each one sprung new-born and autochthonic from the soil? No common threads, no ties or continuations?

330 tradewind  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:34:00pm

re: #279 Ben Hur
Unfortunately, the phrase ' literacy test ' does = racism today, because they were used to keep blacks from voting, and that's a sad fact. Tancredo's an idiot here.
But I do wish there was some way to make sure that a) only citizens vote in our elections, and
b) they can read the ballot.

331 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:34:48pm

re: #329 Guanxi88

So, each one sprung new-born and autochthonic from the soil? No common threads, no ties or continuations?

Hello, twenty-five-cent-word strawman!

The Romans took a lot, but not nearly all, from Greek culture, and changed it on the way. Roman and the various Greek cultures were different, despite sharing enormously with each other. They were massively different, hugely different, fascinatingly different cultures. They are closely bound, highly related cultures, and yet even those two once can point to the massive differences in their cultures and the way those cultures informed their societies. Hell, the Spartans and the Athenians were hugely culturally different from one another.

Things can have continuations, borrow wholesale from each other, and mirror each other in some ways without in any fashion being part of the same culture.

332 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:38:36pm

re: #318 WindUpBird

There is no universal culture to the "west."

It's not that it's controversial, it's that it's not true.

Dinna be sae sure, laddie; dinna be sae sure...

To abstract the mind from all local emotion would be impossible, if it were endeavoured, and would be foolish if it were possible. Whatever withdraws us from the power of our senses, whatever makes the past, the distant, or the future, predominate over the present, advances us in the dignity of thinking beings. Far from me, and from my friends, be such frigid philosophy as may conduct us indifferent and unmoved over any ground that has been dignified by wisdom, bravery or virtue. That man is little to be envied, whose patriotism would not gain force upon the plain of Marathon, or whose piety would not grow warmer among the ruins of Iona.
-- Samuel Johnson, in Boswell's "Life of Johnson"

333 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:38:55pm

re: #331 Obdicut

Hello, twenty-five-cent-word strawman!

The Romans took a lot, but not nearly all, from Greek culture, and changed it on the way. Roman and the various Greek cultures were different, despite sharing enormously with each other. They were massively different, hugely different, fascinatingly different cultures. They are closely bound, highly related cultures, and yet even those two once can point to the massive differences in their cultures and the way those cultures informed their societies. Hell, the Spartans and the Athenians were hugely culturally different from one another.

And oddly enough, when they disputed or competed, they drew from the same stock of symbols, images, and tales. Though very different in many ways, they - I know you hate to think of this - SHARED a common culture. They were Hellenes, and referred to themselves as such.

Things can have continuations, borrow wholesale from each other, and mirror each other in some ways without in any fashion being part of the same culture.

If that's not exactly how a culture grows, I'd like to know very much to hear an alternate theory.

From all of this, I think it's clear that while you acknowledge the existence of smaller cultural units, you and I dispute grouping them into larger categories. Which is to say, you see bricks, and I see a building.

334 American-African  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:39:57pm

re: #214 RogueOne

I started to say the same thing, only it was so badly worded I deleted it before posting. Thanks for saying it with clarity.

That was the thinking behind my screen name. I am an American who happens to have African lineage.

335 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:39:57pm

re: #327 Obdicut

And did you not notice me continually pointing out Protestantism and Catholicism as a key sign of different cultures in Europe?

Differences in an overarching Christian-Western culture, which of course in your eyes does not exist.

336 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:40:36pm

re: #331 Obdicut

Hello, twenty-five-cent-word strawman!


And, for the record autochthonic is a two-dollar word!

337 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:43:08pm

re: #332 The Sanity Inspector

Dinna be sae sure, laddie; dinna be sae sure...

To abstract the mind from all local emotion would be impossible, if it were endeavoured, and would be foolish if it were possible. Whatever withdraws us from the power of our senses, whatever makes the past, the distant, or the future, predominate over the present, advances us in the dignity of thinking beings. Far from me, and from my friends, be such frigid philosophy as may conduct us indifferent and unmoved over any ground that has been dignified by wisdom, bravery or virtue. That man is little to be envied, whose patriotism would not gain force upon the plain of Marathon, or whose piety would not grow warmer among the ruins of Iona.
-- Samuel Johnson, in Boswell's "Life of Johnson"

Western imperialism, as many a great mind has noted, extends not only geographically, but also through time and space. We appropriate all things human and make them our own.

338 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:43:50pm

re: #336 Guanxi88

And, for the record autochthonic is a two-dollar word!

An autochthonic apophthegm
Left Obdicutus spewing phlegm.

Copyright 2010 Cato the Elder

339 Guanxi88  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:46:54pm

Ahh, well!

Off to argue with the boss. I'd much rather bicker with Obdicut (keep us updated on your wedding plans, amigo!) than have to go toe-to-toe with the bosslady.

340 cliffster  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 1:50:13pm

re: #339 Guanxi88

Ahh, well!

Off to argue with the boss. I'd much rather bicker with Obdicut (keep us updated on your wedding plans, amigo!) than have to go toe-to-toe with the bosslady.

Sexist. Have a good evening/weekend.

341 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 3:30:12pm

re: #335 Cato the Elder

If that's all it takes to have a cultural similarity-- religion and region-- then Thailand and China have an overarching culture.

Which is not in the least bit true.

This all started with a very, very simple issue: Guanxi88 said that black slaves and their white masters had the same culture. It's massively insulting, to say the least, to say that the slaves were the same culture, a culture that said that they were less than men, that said they were inferior entirely, that they could never equal a white man in anything, and that they were properly stationed as slaves.

It's asinine in the extreme.

342 perkypauly  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 3:33:58pm

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist
Reading is not understanding

343 Lidane  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 4:09:58pm

re: #202 lostlakehiker

But just for kicks, let's say the government did what he asked, and instituted literacy tests. And let's say the government also did what he implicitly calls for, and made them dishonest and unfair tests, with the examiner looking to give the nod to the guys he liked and not to the others.

We did that already. They were called Jim Crow laws. Those laws were invalidated by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

That's Tancredo's point. He's whining about how minorities have the vote and how they elected Obama, and if we'd just kept the literacy tests, we'd have a white President now.

344 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 4:19:50pm

re: #202 lostlakehiker

Tancredo is just calling for whites-only voting rights. It's a pretty obvious code-word game.

But just for kicks, let's say the government did what he asked, and instituted literacy tests. And let's say the government also did what he implicitly calls for, and made them dishonest and unfair tests, with the examiner looking to give the nod to the guys he liked and not to the others.

It would only be natural that they would. In-power groups always take advantage of every legal lever they've got. That's why we established limits on the power of government in the first place. That's why the original batch of literacy tests was unconstitutional: there was just no way that the tests would in reality be administered impartially.

What would have happened in Massachusetts? Right. The ruling party decides who gets to be a literacy examiner, and standards are subjective, and behold, wannabe Scott Brown voters just don't make the grade.

That was really fabulous!

345 Pacific moderate  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 6:57:48pm

re: #202 lostlakehiker

Tancredo is just calling for whites-only voting rights. It's a pretty obvious code-word game.

But just for kicks, let's say the government did what he asked, and instituted literacy tests. And let's say the government also did what he implicitly calls for, and made them dishonest and unfair tests, with the examiner looking to give the nod to the guys he liked and not to the others.

It would only be natural that they would. In-power groups always take advantage of every legal lever they've got. That's why we established limits on the power of government in the first place. That's why the original batch of literacy tests was unconstitutional: there was just no way that the tests would in reality be administered impartially.

What would have happened in Massachusetts? Right. The ruling party decides who gets to be a literacy examiner, and standards are subjective, and behold, wannabe Scott Brown voters just don't make the grade.

Good point. I wonder if Tancredo would still want a nationalized literacy test put in place if someone showed him a state-by-state map of education rates and SAT scores overlaid with a US electoral map. To put it crudely, with the Democratic party having lost much of its white working class base, and with the Republican party doing its best to devolve into a White Trash identity party, I’m guessing a culturally-neutral literacy test would backfire to the Republicans’ disadvantage. Both parties have their share of low information, illiterate voters, but I suspect they’re more of them in the Republican base at this point now that educated whites have fled to the Democrats (who already had most of the non-white low information voters).

"Careful what you wish for…" and all that.

346 Colo Dave  Fri, Feb 5, 2010 11:55:25pm

I'm not a huge fan of Tom Tancredo's hyperbole, but what would happen to our understanding of what he said if we removed the comma from between "civics" and "literacy?"

For one thing, it would make the subsequent lecture about the racist literacy tests of the past a non sequitur. Tancredo wasn't calling for the reinstitution of those literacy tests. He was just saying that those who failed to vote as he did must have flunked a "civics literacy test." This an an opinion we are free to agree or disagree with, but we should avoid playing the "racist card" unnecessarily.

347 Lidane  Sat, Feb 6, 2010 8:29:39am

re: #346 Colo Dave

I'm not a huge fan of Tom Tancredo's hyperbole, but what would happen to our understanding of what he said if we removed the comma from between "civics" and "literacy?"

Nothing. The end result would be the same.

Any kind of required test before voting would inevitably devolve into the literacy tests of the past. It's why the practice was outlawed.

348 Gail Wynand Wannabe  Sat, Feb 6, 2010 8:18:07pm

Since we're in the modern age, how about limiting the vote to those who are net payers of income tax. That seems reasonable to me.

349 Prince of Leaves  Sun, Feb 7, 2010 1:23:15pm

While I don't doubt the result in practice would be the same, I think it's pretty clear just from grammar alone that the author of the NYDaily News article (a LOL textbook example of yellow journalism) inserted the comma between "civics" and "literacy" deliberately. Read the sentence out loud - how does the way it's written make any sense in normal speech.

Yes, it sounds like trivial hairsplitting, but look at the result: everyone here in comments, and Charles himself in the head post, is talking about how Tom Tancredo is advocating for a return of literacy tests. Solely because of that one little comma, the "civics" part gets conveniently dropped.

Now, Tancredo has only himself and his mouth to blame for the fact that it's believable that he might advocate for such things. But look carefully at the source material and don't let your own personal animus towards the guy obscure what he actually said, and lead you to reading into it more than was there.

350 Prince of Leaves  Sun, Feb 7, 2010 1:25:12pm

Clarify: "result in practice" meaning any test for voting could be corrupted into a means of excluding different groups.


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