Another Catholic Priest Abuse Scandal

Religion • Views: 4,011

Here we go again, with yet another horrifying child sex abuse scandal involving the Catholic Church — this time in Germany: German Catholic schools at center of abuse scandal.

The first accusers came forward a month ago in Berlin. Since then, the list of schools and victims who say they were scarred and haunted by alleged abuses has grown.

First it was seven alumni of the prestigious Canisius Kolleg prep school in Berlin. Then it was Aloisius Kolleg in Bonn and then St. Blasien, another Jesuit-run boarding school in the Black Forest as well as other Catholic schools in Hamburg, Goettingen and Hildesheim.

Just days ago, the renowned boarding schools Ettal Monastery and St. Ottilien in Bavaria made headlines when allegations about child molestation by Benedictine priests there surfaced. The total number of alleged victims has reached at least 150.

Ursula Raue, an attorney appointed by the Jesuit religious order to handle the charges, told The Associated Press she has been overwhelmed by the number of cases that flood her inbox and answering machine daily. “This whole case has taken on a dimension of unbelievable proportions,” she said.

Raue said she “heard from mothers, sisters and brothers, whose children or siblings took their own lives or cannot function in daily life because of deep psychological scars.”

The majority of the victims are male, because most of the schools involved admitted only boys aged 10 to 19 at the time the abuse took place. Many victims have never talked to their wives or friends about the incidents because “they still feel ashamed when the memories of humiliation and powerlessness come back and when they realize that none of those old wounds have healed,” Raue said.

Miguel Abrantes, now 37 and an actor in Duesseldorf, is one of the few victims able and willing to speak out about the abuse and humiliation he suffered as an 11-year-old boy at Aloisius Kolleg.

He said every morning, the boys had to undress and Father Ludger Stueper sprayed them with cold water from the hose, front and back. He said the boys also had to lie down on Stueper’s couch where the priest would take their temperature — rectally for seven minutes.

It gets even worse. Much worse. Read the whole thing.

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415 comments
1 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:04:27pm

I read somewhere the other day that the church is wanting its members in Ireland to pay for the compensation to its victims there.

2 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:06:50pm

I have two suggestions.

1: Let priests be able to get married, my knee jerk reaction is that if they were able to have normal healthy intercourse they wouldn't be forced to do things like this....

2: Take a page out of the boyscout handbook and practice two deep leadership, though I guess that would mean they'd have to build bigger confessionals....

3 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:07:20pm

Pope Benedict clearly has some house cleaning to do in his home country. Those who would abuse children must be rooted out and thrown into prison.

4 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:07:21pm

Will this never end?

5 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:08:33pm

Where's my pope hat?

6 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:09:45pm

re: #2 jamesfirecat

I have two suggestions.

1: Let priests be able to get married, my knee jerk reaction is that if they were able to have normal healthy intercourse they wouldn't be forced to do things like this...

2: Take a page out of the boyscout handbook and practice two deep leadership, though I guess that would mean they'd have to build bigger confessionals...

What in the world? No one is FORCING them to molest children.

Plenty of child molesters are married, too.

7 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:10:17pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Where's my pope hat?

Right here! (pulls pope hat down over Killgore's eyes)

8 Jaerik  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:12:10pm

re: #2 jamesfirecat

I have two suggestions.

1: Let priests be able to get married, my knee jerk reaction is that if they were able to have normal healthy intercourse they wouldn't be forced to do things like this...

A fine suggestion, but I would point out that we've had a lot of homosexual and/or underaged sex scandals in US Protestant churches as well, because of their own brand of intolerance.

It often doesn't grow to the same proportions because they lack the centralized authority of the Catholic Church, but one need only look at someone like Ted Haggard to see that churches forcing clergy into a lifestyle that goes against their basic wiring is always bound to end poorly, and hurt not just the supposed sinner, but everyone around them as well.

9 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:12:31pm

From the article:

While the focus of the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic church centered on the United States for several years, abuse scandals have in recent years erupted in other countries as well, including Ireland, the Philippines, Poland, Mexico, Italy, Canada and elsewhere.

Neither the pope nor the Vatican has made any specific remarks about the abuse scandal in Germany, a Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Ciro Benedettini, said, but he added that Benedict's previous statements on other such scandals — including most recently about Ireland — are certainly valid for Germany.

A Vatican statement last month, after a crisis meeting with Irish bishops, said Benedict called the sexual abuse of children "not only a heinous crime, but also a grave sin which offends God and wounds the dignity of the human person created in his image."

and then a bit later:

"Sexual abuse of children is not a specific problem of the Catholic church. It has neither to do with celibacy, nor with homosexuality nor with Catholic sexual doctrine," Zollitsch told weekly Welt am Sonntag earlier this week.

For the love of God, the Vatican MUST take a strong stand on this. Must. It's creepy, really, how completely clueless they seem to be about the devastation to young lives caused by these incidents, and that these things will continue unless a very strong zero-tolerance stand is taken. They MUST find out why these folks are allowed into the priesthood to begin with, and they MUST refuse to allow them to remain in the priesthood.

I'm not at all surprised to see these things now popping up in other countries. There is nothing about the USA that would make priests here more prone to being abusive than those in other countries.

10 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:12:35pm

re: #6 MandyManners

The biggest issue, to me, is the cover-up, the enabling of these predators to keep predating on children. That's what makes me boil with rage.

11 [deleted]  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:12:41pm
12 darthstar  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:13:10pm

Ugh.

13 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:14:44pm

re: #10 Obdicut

The biggest issue, to me, is the cover-up, the enabling of these predators to keep predating on children. That's what makes me boil with rage.

What makes my blood boil with rage is the idea that they let these people who have forced sex with children keep their jobs, but reject the idea of letting someone who has co-sensual sex with another adult of the same gender into their club house....

14 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:16:07pm

re: #13 jamesfirecat

What makes my blood boil with rage is the idea that they let these people who have forced sex with children keep their jobs, but reject the idea of letting someone who has co-sensual sex with another adult of the same gender into their club house...

so it's a fair employment issue with you?

15 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:16:09pm

re: #13 jamesfirecat

co-sensual

No such word. It's "consensual" (meaning: by mutual consent)

16 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:17:22pm

sickening stuff ...

17 [deleted]  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:17:33pm
18 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:17:45pm

re: #13 jamesfirecat

What makes my blood boil with rage is the idea that they let these people who have forced sex with children keep their jobs, but reject the idea of letting someone who has co-sensual sex with another adult of the same gender into their club house...

No, everyone is allowed into the club house.
You're just supposed to try to stop sinning.

And honestly - that's part of the problem. The Vatican does not realize that these guys are not going to stop. And they aren't.

The only way is to remove them from the position (the priesthood) that gives them this access to children.

19 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:19:37pm

Yeah, but whatever you do, don't try to enroll your kid into Catholic preschool if you're a lesbian couple.

They'll act fast then for what they see in opposition to their policy. I wonder how many years this will take.

20 WindHorse  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:19:45pm

Kilgore, I asked on the previous thread.... but you may not have seen it. Do you repair all stringed instruments? I have an antique violin that I am thinking of getting repaired...

21 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:20:30pm

re: #8 Jaerik

A fine suggestion, but I would point out that we've had a lot of homosexual and/or underaged sex scandals in US Protestant churches as well, because of their own brand of intolerance.

It often doesn't grow to the same proportions because they lack the centralized authority of the Catholic Church, but one need only look at someone like Ted Haggard to see that churches forcing clergy into a lifestyle that goes against their basic wiring is always bound to end poorly, and hurt not just the supposed sinner, but everyone around them as well.

Intolerance of homosexuality breeds pedophilia?

22 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:20:34pm

re: #10 Obdicut

The biggest issue, to me, is the cover-up, the enabling of these predators to keep predating on children. That's what makes me boil with rage.

And me, too.

I cannot for the life of me understand it.

23 Jaerik  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:20:46pm

re: #9 reine.de.tout

It's creepy, really, how completely clueless they seem to be about the devastation to young lives caused by these incidents, and that these things will continue unless a very strong zero-tolerance stand is taken.

Personally, I see it as a failure of most religions that place a higher importance on an individual's personal sins against god than that person's effect on other people in this world. The church honestly seems more concerned with these clergy members' private moral transgressions than the devastating effect their actions have on innocent children and members of their congregation. And (in the case of Protestant churches where they are allowed to marry), their own families.

24 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:22:02pm

I wonder what Pat Condell would say about this phenomenom...that would be interesting

25 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:22:58pm

The endless revelations about pedophilia in the Catholic Church could quite possibly become the worst scandal in history by the time they have run their course. It appears in every part of the world and goes back at least as far as the living memory of the many witnesses and victims. There is no reason to suppose it wasn't standard practice in centuries past. Indeed, anti-Catholic propaganda from the Reformation onward includes many such allegations. These were dismissed as scurrilous nonsense until recently. Now, though, we just don't know. Has the cycle of abuse and institutional concealment been going on since the time of Constantine?
God forbid.

26 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:23:49pm

re: #10 Obdicut

The biggest issue, to me, is the cover-up, the enabling of these predators to keep predating on children. That's what makes me boil with rage.

It's the 800-pound gorilla in the living room.

27 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:24:11pm

re: #23 Jaerik

. . . The church honestly seems more concerned with these clergy members' private moral transgressions than the devastating effect their actions have on innocent children and members of their congregation. And (in the case of Protestant churches where they are allowed to marry), their own families.

Exactly right.
They just seem clueless that pedophiles such as these men are are not going to stop. They simply are not.

It's all well and good to be concerned about a person's moral transgressions and have them ask forgiveness, etc., but the next step that must be taken is to ensure that these folks are never again placed in a situation where they have authority over children.

28 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:24:28pm

re: #13 jamesfirecat

What makes my blood boil with rage is the idea that they let these people who have forced sex with children keep their jobs, but reject the idea of letting someone who has co-sensual sex with another adult of the same gender into their club house...

Pedophilia is not on the same level as homosexuality.

29 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:24:33pm

re: #25 Shiplord Kirel

The endless revelations about pedophilia in the Catholic Church could quite possibly become the worst scandal in history by the time they have run their course. It appears in every part of the world and goes back at least as far as the living memory of the many witnesses and victims. There is no reason to suppose it wasn't standard practice in centuries past. Indeed, anti-Catholic propaganda from the Reformation onward includes many such allegations. These were dismissed as scurrilous nonsense until recently. Now, though, we just don't know. Has the cycle of abuse and institutional concealment been going on since the time of Constantine?
God forbid.

To be fair to the Catholic Church, it's almost as if as long as there have been people who have had power, and people who have wanted sex, there have been people who have used their power to get sex!

30 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:24:38pm

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

Pope Benedict clearly has some house cleaning to do in his home country. Those who would abuse children must be rooted out and thrown into prison.

Prisons need chaplains. Solve a problem with a problem.

31 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:24:49pm

re: #25 Shiplord Kirel

The endless revelations about pedophilia in the Catholic Church could quite possibly become the worst scandal in history by the time they have run their course. It appears in every part of the world and goes back at least as far as the living memory of the many witnesses and victims. There is no reason to suppose it wasn't standard practice in centuries past. Indeed, anti-Catholic propaganda from the Reformation onward includes many such allegations. These were dismissed as scurrilous nonsense until recently. Now, though, we just don't know. Has the cycle of abuse and institutional concealment been going on since the time of Constantine?
God forbid.

I would guess yes...a holdover practice from pagan Rome

32 Jaerik  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:25:01pm

re: #21 MandyManners

Intolerance of homosexuality breeds pedophilia?

No, and you know I wasn't implying that.

I was saying that arbitrary moral codes imposed on clergy have no effect, and potentially even exacerbate, transgressions by clergy who would normally be wired that way.

If removing celibacy requirements reduces the need for repressed clergy to act on their heterosexual impulses, you'd still have trouble with homosexual clergy who aren't allowed to act on theirs either.

Churches should concern themselves with keeping their members from hurting others. Not with holding their members to some arbitrary moral code which is ineffective and simply causes them to hurt even more people than they otherwise would.

33 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:25:22pm

PopeHat avatar!

34 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:25:37pm

re: #28 MandyManners

Pedophilia is not on the same level as homosexuality.

Not saying it is. In fact I think that it is disgusting that evidently the Catholic Church will try to cover up the misdeeds of pedophiles while not wanting to let gay people who are leading healthy relationships join the priesthood.

35 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:25:49pm

re: #27 reine.de.tout

Exactly right.
They just seem clueless that pedophiles such as these men are are not going to stop. They simply are not.

It's all well and good to be concerned about a person's moral transgressions and have them ask forgiveness, etc., but the next step that must be taken is to ensure that these folks are never again placed in a situation where they have authority over children.

Forgiving does not mean one places a huge "WELCOME" mat on one's head.

36 darthstar  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:25:58pm

re: #28 MandyManners

Pedophilia is not on the same level as homosexuality.

I think that was James' point.

37 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:26:11pm

re: #25 Shiplord Kirel

The endless revelations about pedophilia in the Catholic Church could quite possibly become the worst scandal in history by the time they have run their course. It appears in every part of the world and goes back at least as far as the living memory of the many witnesses and victims. There is no reason to suppose it wasn't standard practice in centuries past. Indeed, anti-Catholic propaganda from the Reformation onward includes many such allegations. These were dismissed as scurrilous nonsense until recently. Now, though, we just don't know. Has the cycle of abuse and institutional concealment been going on since the time of Constantine?
God forbid.

Let's not make it only about Catholics -- remember Warren Jeffs, Michael Strong, etc. etc etc. It's really a non denominational problem within most fundamentalist and near fundamentalist religions. Statistically speaking you are safer letting any gay person babysit your child than you are in letting a church authority babysit your child.

38 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:26:39pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

PopeHat avatar!

it's baaack!....heh, what a goofy picture

39 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:27:05pm

re: #32 Jaerik

No, and you know I wasn't implying that.

I was saying that arbitrary moral codes imposed on clergy have no effect, and potentially even exacerbate, transgressions by clergy who would normally be wired that way.

If removing celibacy requirements reduces the need for repressed clergy to act on their heterosexual impulses, you'd still have trouble with homosexual clergy who aren't allowed to act on theirs either.

Churches should concern themselves with keeping their members from hurting others. Not with holding their members to some arbitrary moral code which is ineffective and simply causes them to hurt even more people than they otherwise would.

People do not molest children because they have unfufilled libidos.

40 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:28:30pm

jr psychologists....wow

41 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:28:46pm

re: #30 Decatur Deb

Prisons need chaplains. Solve a problem with a problem.

It's not a bad idea on the surface, but it would fail in practice. In the US at least, child abusers cannot be put into contact with non-sex offenders or they'll be killed. I don't know the situation in Germany.

42 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:29:01pm

re: #39 MandyManners

People do not molest children because they have unfufilled libidos.

Quite Concur.

43 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:30:00pm

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

It's not a bad idea on the surface, but it would fail in practice. In the US at least, child abusers cannot be put into contact with non-sex offenders or they'll be killed. I don't know the situation in Germany.

or cannibals...they do poorly in prison too, after all who wants to be eaten by your cellmate?

44 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:30:01pm

re: #37 Thanos

Let's not make it only about Catholics -- remember Warren Jeffs, Michael Strong, etc. etc etc. It's really a non denominational problem within most fundamentalist and near fundamentalist religions. Statistically speaking you are safer letting any gay person babysit your child than you are in letting a church authority babysit your child.

Any organization with access to children attracts predators. Any organization that asks for obeisance from others and gives access to children...

45 Jaerik  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:30:28pm

re: #39 MandyManners

People do not molest children because they have unfufilled libidos.

When did I ever say they did? You seem to be stuck on child molestation. I assumed such a thing was so unforgivable there was no need to even discuss it, and generalized out to all sexual transgressions by members of the clergy that harm innocent people around them, that wouldn't have hurt anyone if they had a natural outlet for it.

46 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:31:37pm

re: #45 Jaerik

When did I ever say they did? You seem to be stuck on child molestation. I assumed such a thing was so unforgivable there was no need to even discuss it, and generalized out to all sexual transgressions by members of the clergy that harm innocent people around them, that wouldn't have hurt anyone if they had a natural outlet for it.

Right here:

If removing celibacy requirements reduces the need for repressed clergy to act on their heterosexual impulses, you'd still have trouble with homosexual clergy who aren't allowed to act on theirs either.

47 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:31:52pm

re: #39 MandyManners

People do not molest children because they have unfufilled libidos.

no, but more people with healthy relationships might affect the church positively.

48 STEVEMCG  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:31:53pm

re: #39 MandyManners

People do not molest children because they have unfufilled libidos.

I'm not so quick to concur. I don't know how to study such a thing, but celibacy is not a normal practice for an adult. Maybe not all those who take the vows can handle it.

49 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:32:02pm

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

It's not a bad idea on the surface, but it would fail in practice. In the US at least, child abusers cannot be put into contact with non-sex offenders or they'll be killed. I don't know the situation in Germany.

I'll skip the easy, smart-ass answer, and say that prisons should not be behavioral sinks. But that's another problem.

50 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:32:10pm

re: #45 Jaerik

When did I ever say they did? You seem to be stuck on child molestation. I assumed such a thing was so unforgivable there was no need to even discuss it, and generalized out to all sexual transgressions by members of the clergy that harm innocent people around them, that wouldn't have hurt anyone if they had a natural outlet for it.

And, yes, this is about pedophilia.

51 darthstar  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:32:36pm

Sorry kids...this topic makes me want to vomit. I'll check back in later on the next thread.
Peace.

52 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:33:02pm

re: #30 Decatur Deb

Prisons need chaplains. Solve a problem with a problem.

Except the priests won't be able to diddle their "congregants"...not if they want to stand upright and be above room temperature.

53 STEVEMCG  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:33:05pm

I think you can make the argument that removing the requirement of celibacy would make the priesthood more attractive to a wider variety of men, and certainly give the predators less cover.

54 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:33:13pm

re: #47 Uninformed Opinion

no, but more people with healthy relationships might affect the church positively.

There are plenty of married pedophiles.

55 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:33:29pm

re: #48 STEVEMCG

I'm not so quick to concur. I don't know how to study such a thing, but celibacy is not a normal practice for an adult. Maybe not all those who take the vows can handle it.

That doesn't mean you then molest children
Plenty of priests have had affairs with women, left the church, gotten married.

56 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:33:42pm

re: #54 MandyManners

There are plenty of married pedophiles.

there are plenty of unmarried ones too.

57 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:34:53pm

re: #48 STEVEMCG

I'm not so quick to concur. I don't know how to study such a thing, but celibacy is not a normal practice for an adult. Maybe not all those who take the vows can handle it.

obviously we know that, now what do you do with these roaming hoards?

58 STEVEMCG  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:35:08pm

re: #55 reine.de.tout

I'm sure that many predators knew the priesthood gave plenty of cover, but I'm also saying that the requirement of celibacy has some unknown consequences.

59 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:35:13pm

re: #48 STEVEMCG

I'm not so quick to concur. I don't know how to study such a thing, but celibacy is not a normal practice for an adult. Maybe not all those who take the vows can handle it.

Then they shouldn't take the vows. It is no one's fault except the pedophile's. They'd be perverts even if married.

60 Jaerik  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:35:39pm

re: #46 MandyManners

Right here:

If removing celibacy requirements reduces the need for repressed clergy to act on their heterosexual impulses, you'd still have trouble with homosexual clergy who aren't allowed to act on theirs either.

I think you're misunderstanding what I said.

My point was: if we assume for the sake of argument (like the original post I was replying to did) that the problem is celibacy, and removing the celibacy requirement would somehow cut down on clergy members' hurting others (not just children)... then one would have to then logically apply the same argument to homosexual clergy members who would still be under a form of celibacy, and thus still have the same problem.

I'm sorry if I come across a bit snappy, but I get annoyed when attempts at logical arguments about this (clearly large) problem turn into knee-jerk moral outrage, and hyper-focus on the singular perpetrators while turning a blind eye to the institutional problems with organized religion that breed these situations.

61 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:35:50pm

re: #53 STEVEMCG

I think you can make the argument that removing the requirement of celibacy would make the priesthood more attractive to a wider variety of men, and certainly give the predators less cover.

Again, you don't need to be celibate in order to be a pervert.

62 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:36:21pm

re: #56 Uninformed Opinion

there are plenty of unmarried ones too.

Precisely. Marital status does not affect pedophilia.

63 STEVEMCG  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:36:53pm

re: #59 MandyManners

Then they shouldn't take the vows. It is no one's fault except the pedophile's. They'd be perverts even if married.

Lots of people take vows they have no business taking. Often they don't know they can't live up to them, or they think things will be different after they take the vows.

64 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:37:21pm

re: #60 Jaerik

I think you're misunderstanding what I said.

My point was: if we assume for the sake of argument (like the original post I was replying to did) that the problem is celibacy, and removing the celibacy requirement would somehow cut down on clergy members' hurting others (not just children)... then one would have to then logically apply the same argument to homosexual clergy members who would still be under a form of celibacy, and thus still have the same problem.

I'm sorry if I come across a bit snappy, but I get annoyed when attempts at logical arguments about this (clearly large) problem turn into knee-jerk moral outrage, and hyper-focus on the singular perpetrators while turning a blind eye to the institutional problems with organized religion that breed these situations.

I do not assume that at all.

65 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:37:33pm

Whoops I said Michael Strong upthread , I meant Wayne Bent aka Michael Travesser who started Strong City.

His pitch:

"It's the end of the world as we know it so I must sleep with your wives and daughters..."

66 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:37:40pm

re: #54 MandyManners

There are plenty of married pedophiles.

probably many married celibates too...I don't see where celibacy or homosexuality has a role in any of this....that's just diluting the problem imo...there needs to be some outstanding penalty and there isn't

67 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:37:44pm

re: #59 MandyManners

Then they shouldn't take the vows. It is no one's fault except the pedophile's. They'd be perverts even if married.

Agreed. The key is early detection of people with pedophile tendencies. The great question would be what to do after they are ID'd.

68 STEVEMCG  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:38:08pm

re: #61 MandyManners

Not my point. In fact, the perverts aren't being celibate.

69 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:38:26pm

re: #66 albusteve

probably many married celibates too...I don't see where celibacy or homosexuality has a role in any of this...that's just diluting the problem imo...there needs to be some outstanding penalty and there isn't

This.

70 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:38:44pm

re: #63 STEVEMCG

Lots of people take vows they have no business taking. Often they don't know they can't live up to them, or they think things will be different after they take the vows.

well whatever...that's not the issue

71 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:39:03pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. The key is early detection of people with pedophile tendencies. The great question would be what to do after they are ID'd.

Lock 'em away from humanity if they've committed the act already.

72 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:41:44pm

re: #71 MandyManners

Lock 'em away from humanity if they've committed the act already.

we let child molesters out of jail on the promise they won't get within 100ft of a playground....problem solved!

73 Lidane  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:41:56pm

*sigh*

Every new sex scandal in the Church only reinforces the decision I made at 18 to stop going to Mass, and to walk away from organized religion altogether.

I made it all the way through my Confirmation, but haven't set foot in a church at all, aside from weddings, funerals, or the occasional service with my Mom when I visit her in almost 20 years. Granted, I did it for a very different set of reasons that have nothing to do with the molestation scandals, but the Church's total and utter failure to do anything about these scandals just makes me realize I was right to leave when I did.

I wish it was as simple as letting priests marry or lifting the celibacy requirements. It's not. The problems that have led to these scandals are deep, formed over decades of putting the institutional Church over the people in the churches every Sunday. As long as that stays the general MO, these problems will continue.

74 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:42:31pm

Going all dispassionate, there a at least 3 different issues here:

1. Does the Catholic clergy have a much higher rate of abuse than the societies from which they draw. Apologists say it's about the same, but the stats, especially from generations past, are a problem.

2. Whatever the sexual crimes of individuals, the Church in a deep leadership disaster. Cardinal Lay was "booted-up" to one of the most prestigious churches in Rome. The issue is treated with same-old same-old.

3. If issue (1) shows pastors are no better and no worse than the run of men, what is the philosophical impact on the value of the religious life?

75 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:42:38pm

re: #72 albusteve

we let child molesters out of jail on the promise they won't get within 100ft of a playground...problem solved!

The law goes further than that but, until we rewite the penal code I don't know what else we can do.

76 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:43:49pm

re: #66 albusteve

probably many married celibates too...I don't see where celibacy or homosexuality has a role in any of this...that's just diluting the problem imo...there needs to be some outstanding penalty and there isn't

eggs-zactly.

These things always end up with somebody getting onto the celibacy issue - and that's not the issue.

The issue is that church refuses to see the utter evil that exists in the form of child molesters who will not stop, because they cannot.

77 STEVEMCG  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:44:07pm

re: #70 albusteve

well whatever...that's not the issue

How is that not the issue? These priests, and those that cover for them are violating their vows. They may have had no intention of keeping them or they thought they'd be strong enough to keep them. The priesthood has been a place where many men can isolate themselves from a society that they can't handle for whatever reason. Whether they were perverts all along, or they had some level of cowardice that makes them incapable of dealing with the perverts, it certainly has made this catastrophe possible.

78 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:46:38pm

re: #77 STEVEMCG

How is that not the issue? These priests, and those that cover for them are violating their vows. They may have had no intention of keeping them or they thought they'd be strong enough to keep them. The priesthood has been a place where many men can isolate themselves from a society that they can't handle for whatever reason. Whether they were perverts all along, or they had some level of cowardice that makes them incapable of dealing with the perverts, it certainly has made this catastrophe possible.

I don't give damn about vows, I care about morality and criminal law

79 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:46:41pm

I don't see how the vow of celibacy enters into it at all. Pedophilia is not about sex. It's about power.

80 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:47:05pm

Rape is not about sex. It's about power.

81 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:47:13pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

Celibacy is an issue only in so far as, if you already know that you're going to be hiding your sexuality, then joining an organization that encourages one to repress one's sexuality, or channel it, or whatever, would be natural.

Hell, I can see someone who knew they were a pedophile joining the church to try to find a way to control themselves.

It is not that celibacy causes molestation, but that a life of apparent celibacy is more attractive to a couple of different sorts of molesters; those looking to hide, and those wanting help.

82 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:47:49pm

re: #74 Decatur Deb

There's a number four to me as well.... I've oft wondered if some of the mental litanys and challenges that the perpetrators go through doesn't contain a bit of rationalization:

"Well I'm doing sooo much work for the lord, if I slip on occasion I'm entitled and I'll make it up somehow"....

Somewhat of the same thinking and Rationalizations might also lie behind some of the religious right and family values guys who cheat on their wifes, take bribes, and lie.

83 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:48:35pm

re: #79 MandyManners

Well studies done on pedophiles show that they really are, the sick bastards, aroused by what they're doing. You can say it's the power arousing them, but the little bits of their brain that are going off are wired into sex.

I couldn't do those kinds of studies. The urge to pummel would be too large.

84 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:49:22pm

re: #81 Obdicut

Celibacy is an issue only in so far as, if you already know that you're going to be hiding your sexuality, then joining an organization that encourages one to repress one's sexuality, or channel it, or whatever, would be natural.

Hell, I can see someone who knew they were a pedophile joining the church to try to find a way to control themselves.

It is not that celibacy causes molestation, but that a life of apparent celibacy is more attractive to a couple of different sorts of molesters; those looking to hide, and those wanting help.

that's their problem...ours is to find these guys and bust them...I could care less about their weaknesses or deceit or the rest

85 Jaerik  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:49:30pm

re: #74 Decatur Deb


3. If issue (1) shows pastors are no better and no worse than the run of men, what is the philosophical impact on the value of the religious life?

Which is sort of the point I'm trying to make, here.

I can only participate in so many "Child abusers are bad, lock 'em up" chest-thumping, moral outrage threads before I get tired of it. Of course it's horrible. Of course we need a way to punish these people. It's one of the worst crimes I can imagine. It just happens so damn often, I assume we're all in agreement on this point by now, and don't need a multi-hundred post pile-on thread all fervently agreeing with one another.

But beyond a certain point, the engineer in me needs to find patterns, and figure out institutional reasons why these problems keep occurring. While I don't think incidences of pedophilia are any higher in the church than in the general population, that's damning with faint praise: if not, what's the point? And if the policy of sexual repression has no evident effect on human behavior, shouldn't we focus on altering the policy so that such transgressions effect the least amount of innocent people possible?

86 STEVEMCG  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:50:01pm

re: #79 MandyManners

I don't see how the vow of celibacy enters into it at all. Pedophilia is not about sex. It's about power.

Celibacy enters into it because it restricts the pool of applicants. The people who go on to become priest are (I think) more likely to have borderline personalities. I wouldn't argue that celibacy causes predation, but I also can't rule out that somebody who can't live up to the vow of celibacy may try to take advantage of someone he thinks won't tell on him. That means kids.

87 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:50:38pm

re: #81 Obdicut

Celibacy is an issue only in so far as, if you already know that you're going to be hiding your sexuality, then joining an organization that encourages one to repress one's sexuality, or channel it, or whatever, would be natural.

Hell, I can see someone who knew they were a pedophile joining the church to try to find a way to control themselves.

It is not that celibacy causes molestation, but that a life of apparent celibacy is more attractive to a couple of different sorts of molesters; those looking to hide, and those wanting help.

I don't see pedophilia as sexuality.

88 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:50:43pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Well studies done on pedophiles show that they really are, the sick bastards, aroused by what they're doing.

Agree. For them, power is sex - they get pleasure from inflicting pain and humiliation on another human being.

89 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:51:18pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Well studies done on pedophiles show that they really are, the sick bastards, aroused by what they're doing. You can say it's the power arousing them, but the little bits of their brain that are going off are wired into sex.

I couldn't do those kinds of studies. The urge to pummel would be too large.

Rapists get off on what they do, too.

90 Lidane  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:51:35pm

re: #79 MandyManners

I don't see how the vow of celibacy enters into it at all. Pedophilia is not about sex. It's about power.

True. That's why lifting the celibacy requirements and the marriage ban on priests doesn't solve anything. Sure, getting rid of both of those things would help them recruit more men to the priesthood, but like you said-- paedophilia and rape aren't about sex. They're about power.

Until the Church finally comes to realize that they can no longer just shuffle these predators around from parish to parish, or cover up their crimes to protect the Church. They have to actually clean house, and not just with the predator priests. They have to also get rid of the higher ups that coddle them and sweep it all under the rug.

91 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:51:46pm

re: #85 Jaerik

Which is sort of the point I'm trying to make, here.

I can only participate in so many "Child abusers are bad, lock 'em up" chest-thumping, moral outrage threads before I get tired of it. Of course it's horrible. Of course we need a way to punish these people. It's one of the worst crimes I can imagine. It just happens so damn often, I assume we're all in agreement on this point by now, and don't need a multi-hundred post pile-on thread all fervently agreeing with one another.

But beyond a certain point, the engineer in me needs to find patterns, and figure out institutional reasons why these problems keep occurring. While I don't think incidences of pedophilia are any higher in the church than in the general population, that's damning with faint praise: if not, what's the point? And if the policy of sexual repression has no evident effect on human behavior, shouldn't we focus on altering the policy so that such transgressions effect the least amount of innocent people possible?

we?...who is we?...it's the Catholic Church that's the subject

92 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:51:55pm

re: #55 reine.de.tout

That doesn't mean you then molest children
Plenty of priests have had affairs with women, left the church, gotten married.

One thing that I don't think anyone's mentioned on the thread AFAIK, but the whole priest pedophilia issue (which, although it seems to happen with Catholicism the most [because of the sheer number of Catholics worldwide], has happened with clergy in Protestant religions as well) is primarily about control over the young, weak, and powerless (children)...the sexual abuse is merely a means of exercising that control.

As an (almost) lifelong Scout/Scouter, I know more about this subject than I wish I had to, but it's something that we have to be on guard against for the safety of the youth and for the integrity of the program. Because of the pervs, every Scouter has a PD/FBI background check done when they join Scouting (and at varying intervals thereafter, depending on the jurisdiction) and are required to complete youth protection training every two years and follow certain guidelines to minimize/prevent situations where adults and youth are one-on-one with each other alone.

Sexual abuse of children by adults in a position of authority...it's almost as old as society itself, knows no bounds, doesn't discriminate, but it's still vile and horrifying anytime I hear about it.

93 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:53:10pm

re: #86 STEVEMCG

Celibacy enters into it because it restricts the pool of applicants. The people who go on to become priest are (I think) more likely to have borderline personalities. I wouldn't argue that celibacy causes predation, but I also can't rule out that somebody who can't live up to the vow of celibacy may try to take advantage of someone he thinks won't tell on him. That means kids.

Pedophiles all over take advantage of the fact that their victims won't tell.

94 Jaerik  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:53:11pm

re: #91 albusteve

we?...who is we?...it's the Catholic Church that's the subject

Sorry, general "we." Catholic Church in this instance, other churches in others.

95 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:53:12pm

re: #81 Obdicut

Celibacy is an issue only in so far as, if you already know that you're going to be hiding your sexuality, then joining an organization that encourages one to repress one's sexuality, or channel it, or whatever, would be natural.

Hell, I can see someone who knew they were a pedophile joining the church to try to find a way to control themselves.

It is not that celibacy causes molestation, but that a life of apparent celibacy is more attractive to a couple of different sorts of molesters; those looking to hide, and those wanting help.

Actually - I've seen some information, some research done awhile back, that shows that many of these folks join the priesthood, not to try to control themselves, but because it ensures they will be in a position of authority over and have access to impressionable kids.

I also saw once, I no longer have it bookmarked but I did at one time- there are a couple of seminaries in this country where these sorts of folks, pedophiles, have sort of taken over! Normal folks wanting to enter the priesthood who visit these places have been appalled at what they see, and end up going somewhere else to attend seminary. Whereas - those with pedophilia tendencies to begin with visit the seminary, LIKE WHAT THE SEE, and end up in a place with similar folks that tolerate their behavior.

That is one of the things that has to be fixed (and by this time, may be on its way to being fixed).

96 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:53:26pm

re: #88 publicityStunted

Agree. For them, power is sex - they get pleasure from inflicting pain and humiliation on another human being.

Bingo.

97 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:54:18pm

re: #90 Lidane

True. That's why lifting the celibacy requirements and the marriage ban on priests doesn't solve anything. Sure, getting rid of both of those things would help them recruit more men to the priesthood, but like you said-- paedophilia and rape aren't about sex. They're about power.

Until the Church finally comes to realize that they can no longer just shuffle these predators around from parish to parish, or cover up their crimes to protect the Church. They have to actually clean house, and not just with the predator priests. They have to also get rid of the higher ups that coddle them and sweep it all under the rug.

Too bad we can't nail those in higher positions who knew about it.

98 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:54:38pm

re: #79 MandyManners

I don't see how the vow of celibacy enters into it at all. Pedophilia is not about sex. It's about power.

re: #80 MandyManners

Rape is not about sex. It's about power.

GMTA...

99 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:54:48pm

re: #90 Lidane

True. That's why lifting the celibacy requirements and the marriage ban on priests doesn't solve anything. Sure, getting rid of both of those things would help them recruit more men to the priesthood, but like you said-- paedophilia and rape aren't about sex. They're about power.

Until the Church finally comes to realize that they can no longer just shuffle these predators around from parish to parish, or cover up their crimes to protect the Church. They have to actually clean house, and not just with the predator priests. They have to also get rid of the higher ups that coddle them and sweep it all under the rug.

And the house cleaning needs to begin with the seminaries.

100 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:54:57pm

Horrible stuff.

101 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:55:11pm

re: #82 Thanos

There's a number four to me as well... I've oft wondered if some of the mental litanys and challenges that the perpetrators go through doesn't contain a bit of rationalization:

"Well I'm doing sooo much work for the lord, if I slip on occasion I'm entitled and I'll make it up somehow"...

Somewhat of the same thinking and Rationalizations might also lie behind some of the religious right and family values guys who cheat on their wifes, take bribes, and lie.

Yes. If we start looking carefully at the individuals, there are probably lots of different kinds monsters at play. The simplest would be the cynical SOB attracted to that life just for the opportunities it offers.

There is another level, if someone were to study abuse institutionally: The cases don't seem random geographically. If they are focused on certain monasteries and dioceses, a micro-culture would be in play. There is an historical theme of manasteries and convents "gone bad".

102 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:55:47pm

re: #92 talon_262

One thing that I don't think anyone's mentioned on the thread AFAIK, but the whole priest pedophilia issue (which, although it seems to happen with Catholicism the most [because of the sheer number of Catholics worldwide], has happened with clergy in Protestant religions as well) is primarily about control over the young, weak, and powerless (children)...the sexual abuse is merely a means of exercising that control.

As an (almost) lifelong Scout/Scouter, I know more about this subject than I wish I had to, but it's something that we have to be on guard against for the safety of the youth and for the integrity of the program. Because of the pervs, every Scouter has a PD/FBI background check done when they join Scouting (and at varying intervals thereafter, depending on the jurisdiction) and are required to complete youth protection training every two years and follow certain guidelines to minimize/prevent situations where adults and youth are one-on-one with each other alone.

Sexual abuse of children by adults in a position of authority...it's almost as old as society itself, knows no bounds, doesn't discriminate, but it's still vile and horrifying anytime I hear about it.

And, it's not just a Christian issue. Pedophiles are in all faiths. And, no faith.

103 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:56:41pm

re: #95 reine.de.tout

Actually - I've seen some information, some research done awhile back, that shows that many of these folks join the priesthood, not to try to control themselves, but because it ensures they will be in a position of authority over and have access to impressionable kids.

I also saw once, I no longer have it bookmarked but I did at one time- there are a couple of seminaries in this country where these sorts of folks, pedophiles, have sort of taken over! Normal folks wanting to enter the priesthood who visit these places have been appalled at what they see, and end up going somewhere else to attend seminary. Whereas - those with pedophilia tendencies to begin with visit the seminary, LIKE WHAT THE SEE, and end up in a place with similar folks that tolerate their behavior.

That is one of the things that has to be fixed (and by this time, may be on its way to being fixed).

Why don't those people blow the freakin' whistle to law enforcement?!

104 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:57:06pm

if a priest needs to break his vow toward celibacy then why not buy a prostitute or take up with some woman somewhere?....the issue has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia...give me a break

105 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:58:31pm

re: #104 albusteve

if a priest needs to break his vow toward celibacy then why not buy a prostitute or take up with some woman somewhere?...the issue has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia...give me a break

Give me a break. There are priests who do those things. This has everything to do with pedophilia.

106 STEVEMCG  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:58:47pm

re: #93 MandyManners

Pedophiles all over take advantage of the fact that their victims won't tell.

Yes, we know that. The point I am trying to make is that the vow of celibacy is not irrelevant. I think it leads to a second order (lower percentage) of offender, the one that wouldn't have abused children, but couldn't handle the celibacy. Also I think the vow creates a society of people who just don't have the wherewithall to stop the abuse. Again, not that celibacy causes abuse, but indirectly allows it to go on.

107 WindHorse  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:59:00pm

Off to kick my sons' butts in Scrabble (I hope).

Have a great evening ever' body.

108 WindHorse  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:59:27pm

re: #107 WindHorse

(not literally of course)

109 Lidane  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:59:37pm

re: #99 reine.de.tout

And the house cleaning needs to begin with the seminaries.

I'd start with the Vatican first. Wishful thinking, I know, but honestly, that's where it all needs to start.

Cleaning out the seminaries doesn't do anything about the priests and higher ups that are already active clergy, and who are currently involved in any abuse or cover-ups. Start at the top, get rid of all the people in power who know or who are enabling these kinds of things to continue, then work your way to the seminaries.

110 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:59:40pm

I'm out also

Overnight persons here

111 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:00:12pm

re: #92 talon_262

Some Catholic church organizations are pro-active. My wife has to have a mild criminal background check just to play the piano for choir. (Stupidly, the check would be more thorough if she were paid.) She gets annual training and recertification on abuse prevention.

112 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:01:16pm

re: #106 STEVEMCG

Yes, we know that. The point I am trying to make is that the vow of celibacy is not irrelevant. I think it leads to a second order (lower percentage) of offender, the one that wouldn't have abused children, but couldn't handle the celibacy. Also I think the vow creates a society of people who just don't have the wherewithall to stop the abuse. Again, not that celibacy causes abuse, but indirectly allows it to go on.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

113 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:01:30pm

Kind of odd, but when I think of abused children (in any fashion) I think of Genesis 4:10...

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

114 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:01:31pm

re: #103 MandyManners

Why don't those people blow the freakin' whistle to law enforcement?!

I just found this, and it looks interesting.

Quotes from the Complaint # BC307934, filed December 17, 2003:

From 1955 through 2002 at least 28 high ranking priests within the LA Archdiocese inner circle who have been accused or convicted of sex abuse, occupied the highest positions.

Well placed priests including Bishops Juan Arzube and G. Patrick Ziemann "used their prominence in the archdiocese administration to cover up for other priests.

Priests involved in education such as Leland Boyer and Gerald Fessard utilized their positions of authority to gain access to victims and then to funnel the children they molested into seminaries and the priesthood.

These 26 priests and likely many others occupied positions such as Auxiliary Bishops, Vicar for Clergy, Vicars General, deans, and teachers at local seminaries and as recruiters for seminaries.

The elevation of child molesters to these positions helps explain why so many child molesting priests were protected by the Defendant Doe Archdiocese, how so many child molesters became priests, and how so many seminarians and priests became child molesters.

THE PRESENCE OF SUCH A HIGH NUMBER OF MOLESTERS IN THE ARCHDIOCESE underscores the institutional and cultural acceptance and acquiescence that is concordant with the systematic failure of the Defendant Doe Archdiocese to take appropriate action to prevent further abuse.

EDUCATION:

Child molester priests congregated in three arms of archdiocesan religious education. Administrators, faculty at the Junior Seminary, members of the Cocations Commission who acted as recruiters for Junior and Major Seminaries.

In these capacities child molester priests had increased opportunities to seek out additional victims who they then steered into the seminary.

Once they were preyed upon and, for too many, inculcated into a perverse lifestyle, the only thing unacceptable about molesting children was being caught by someone that might complain.

115 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:01:37pm

re: #109 Lidane

Yes, I agree that the clean up must start from the top. Sadly, I think it may take another generation who grow up with these scandals, and the survivors, to have the will to truly fix the culture of corruption that has aided & abetted this behavior.

116 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:01:37pm

re: #109 Lidane

I'd start with the Vatican first. Wishful thinking, I know, but honestly, that's where it all needs to start.

Cleaning out the seminaries doesn't do anything about the priests and higher ups that are already active clergy, and who are currently involved in any abuse or cover-ups. Start at the top, get rid of all the people in power who know or who are enabling these kinds of things to continue, then work your way to the seminaries.

Quite concur.

117 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:03:05pm

re: #114 reine.de.tout

Cardinal Mahoney stonewalled, even when presented with a supoena, IIRC. It was huge that they were able to force him to testify.

118 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:03:31pm

re: #114 reine.de.tout

I have this vision of a large, isolate island on which those bastards should be placed until they die. Heck, bury them there, too.

119 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:03:36pm

No worries, I'm sure Pope Benedict will get right on top of this!
Oh.

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:03:51pm

re: #63 STEVEMCG

Lots of people take vows they have no business taking. Often they don't know they can't live up to them, or they think things will be different after they take the vows.

And, in the case of this specific problem in the Church, I think we have a problem of abuse being handed on generation to generation, and normalized within the abusive culture. Boys used to start training for the priesthood in what's now middle school. No exposure to normal sexual interactions of any kind, bad issues about sexuality, and abuse from people who were held up as role models. That's gonna f*** a person up, you'll excuse my French.

Which is actually one of the reasons I think that, in the industrialized nations anyway, we're on the road to recovery. The culture has changed, and lay Catholics have changed, and the law has changed.

121 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:04:22pm

re: #117 Floral Giraffe

Cardinal Mahoney stonewalled, even when presented with a supoena, IIRC. It was huge that they were able to force him to testify.

Who did he think he was that he could ignore a subpoena?!

122 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:04:55pm

re: #109 Lidane

I'd start with the Vatican first. Wishful thinking, I know, but honestly, that's where it all needs to start.

Cleaning out the seminaries doesn't do anything about the priests and higher ups that are already active clergy, and who are currently involved in any abuse or cover-ups. Start at the top, get rid of all the people in power who know or who are enabling these kinds of things to continue, then work your way to the seminaries.

While I agree with you that the higher-ups currently involved in abuse or cover-ups must be dealt with, those in the seminary right now are the ones who will be at the front lines in the parish, working with children. That's an immediate need to be dealt with, IMO.

123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:05:07pm

re: #121 MandyManners

Who did he think he was that he could ignore a subpoena?!

He think he was the pope or sumthin'?

124 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:05:10pm

re: #87 MandyManners

I don't see pedophilia as sexuality.

Depo-Provera disagrees.

125 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:05:15pm

re: #121 MandyManners

Cardinal Mahoney.

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:05:55pm

re: #73 Lidane

It's not. The problems that have led to these scandals are deep, formed over decades of putting the institutional Church over the people in the churches every Sunday. As long as that stays the general MO, these problems will continue.

I think you're bang on the money, and I know a lot of practicing Catholics who agree with you...devoutly.

That was what the Church didn't seem to get as the scandal unfolded--it wasn't that people were shocked to learn that there were priests who were pedophiles, they were shocked to learn that the Church leadership had protected these men instead of their children, again and again and again.

127 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:07:21pm

re: #117 Floral Giraffe

Cardinal Mahoney stonewalled, even when presented with a supoena, IIRC. It was huge that they were able to force him to testify.

I remember that.
He absolutely did stonewall.
His concern should have been for the victims of these crimes, not the perpetrators.

Really, I'm just amazed that these people seem to have absolutely no clue whatsoever just how devastating this is for a child, and how lives are absolutely ruined before they've even had a chance to begin, when a kid is molested by a trusted adult in a position of authority - especially church authority!

128 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:07:45pm

re: #121 MandyManners

DO NOT try to search the news for that.
Yuck! Forgot my hazmat suit.

129 keloyd  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:07:46pm

Can anyone shed light on "sexual immaturity" as a factor with these people? Some pundits were going on about it, but I don't know a thing about abnormal psych beyond doing a GIS. Something doesn't turn out right during puberty, then the adult is disordered in his mind forever. As a result, he is more likely to choose a life where celibacy allows him to ignore sex entirely, then things go very wrong. Any idea about causes? whether the theories are still curren? whether they're onto something? whether a sexually repressed environment, with no porn and all boys' schools made it more common?

130 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:08:07pm

You know, I never thought I'd say this, but I wish Walter was here.... he tends to have some interesting thoughts on the subject having helped write a screenplay (based on someone else's novel) about the subject of pedophilia and all...

131 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:08:18pm

re: #126 SanFranciscoZionist

I think you're bang on the money, and I know a lot of practicing Catholics who agree with you...devoutly.

That was what the Church didn't seem to get as the scandal unfolded--it wasn't that people were shocked to learn that there were priests who were pedophiles, they were shocked to learn that the Church leadership had protected these men instead of their children, again and again and again.

ABSOLUTELY.
And I'm not certain the church has learned any lessons from that. We see in Germany, the same sort of denial denial denial that we saw here.

132 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:09:33pm

re: #124 goddamnedfrank

Depo-Provera disagrees.

Castration does not stop it because you don't need an erection in order to rape.

133 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:10:08pm

re: #123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He think he was the pope or sumthin'?

If a head of state can be deposed, why not a pope?

134 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:10:11pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

And, in the case of this specific problem in the Church, I think we have a problem of abuse being handed on generation to generation, and normalized within the abusive culture. Boys used to start training for the priesthood in what's now middle school. No exposure to normal sexual interactions of any kind, bad issues about sexuality, and abuse from people who were held up as role models. That's gonna f*** a person up, you'll excuse my French.

Which is actually one of the reasons I think that, in the industrialized nations anyway, we're on the road to recovery. The culture has changed, and lay Catholics have changed, and the law has changed.

I think you're right. If you didn't see it upthread, see this.

135 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:10:28pm

re: #125 Floral Giraffe

Cardinal Mahoney.

Thinks a wee bit too much of himself.

136 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:10:33pm

re: #132 MandyManners

Castration does not stop it because you don't need an erection in order to rape.

Castration can help in some cases because its not about stopping the ability to rape, but exercising control over the flow of hormones to the mind. Less desire for sex= well less desire for sex....

137 The Shadow Do  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:10:33pm

There is absolutely nothing wrong celibacy in the priesthood. what is wrong is that it has become a convenient and well known cover for pedophiles. Folks do not suddenly become perverts for lack of heterosexual activity. If you are a criminal, however, you have probably found room to operate.

This is stating the obvious of course.

138 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:11:41pm

re: #128 Floral Giraffe

DO NOT try to search the news for that.
Yuck! Forgot my hazmat suit.

I'd never even think about Googling this.

139 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:11:52pm

If someone hasn't already mentioned it, it's a good thing we're hearing these stories. It seems as one becomes public, it opens the door for the next, and the next and so on. They should all be unveiled until the church is forced to put in meaningful protection for children, like maybe monitors of some sort.

140 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:12:00pm

re: #105 Cato the Elder

Give me a break. There are priests who do those things. This has everything to do with pedophilia.

that's my point...two separate issues...just poor wording

141 Neutral President  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:12:15pm

re: #129 keloyd

Hey.... you bogarted my avatar...

Shenanigans!

142 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:12:26pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

And, in the case of this specific problem in the Church, I think we have a problem of abuse being handed on generation to generation, and normalized within the abusive culture. Boys used to start training for the priesthood in what's now middle school. No exposure to normal sexual interactions of any kind, bad issues about sexuality, and abuse from people who were held up as role models. That's gonna f*** a person up, you'll excuse my French.

Which is actually one of the reasons I think that, in the industrialized nations anyway, we're on the road to recovery. The culture has changed, and lay Catholics have changed, and the law has changed.

You're semi-right. At seminary we had no exposure to sexual interactions, normal or abnormal. We had no "bad" issues or any other kind except what we learned academically. (On a lighter thread, I might discuss some of the funnier consequences of that.) We didn't get fucked-up. We just left. My class started with 65 students--5 were left after I bailed, 5 yrs into it. What our sexuality might have morphed into was a focus that bordered on fanatacisam.

143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:12:44pm

re: #131 reine.de.tout

Check your wall, Toots.

144 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:12:59pm

re: #136 jamesfirecat

Castration can help in some cases because its not about stopping the ability to rape, but exercising control over the flow of hormones to the mind. Less desire for sex= well less desire for sex...

Rape is not about sex. It is about power.

145 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:13:11pm

re: #135 MandyManners

Thinks a wee bit too much of himself.

The new cathedral he got built & finished before the LA diocese scandal broke out, is locally called "The Taj Mahoney".

146 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:13:25pm

re: #136 jamesfirecat

Castration can help in some cases because its not about stopping the ability to rape, but exercising control over the flow of hormones to the mind. Less desire for sex= well less desire for sex...

A man doesn't rape because he cannot get sex elsewhere.

147 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:13:55pm

re: #136 jamesfirecat

Castration can help in some cases because its not about stopping the ability to rape, but exercising control over the flow of hormones to the mind. Less desire for sex= well less desire for sex...

Agreed. Rape is about power but hormones do play a role.

148 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:14:17pm

re: #145 Floral Giraffe

The new cathedral he got built & finished before the LA diocese scandal broke out, is locally called "The Taj Mahoney".

Too bad that money didn't go toward helping the victims instead.

149 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:15:12pm

re: #144 MandyManners

Rape is not about sex. It is about power.

Then why are there studies which show chemical castration reduces the rate of recidivism among child molesters?

[Link: www.csun.edu...]

150 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:15:37pm

re: #148 MandyManners

Well, I'm sure it's one of the many, many, many LA properties that got mortgaged to pay the settlement. Every Catholic school that I know of, is on the list of martgaged properties.

151 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:15:51pm

re: #149 jamesfirecat

KILLING THEM DEAD MIGHT WORK TOO.

152 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:16:03pm

Mandy mentioned this earlier so I had to look it up...
Parishioners asked to help fund sex abuse compensation

That's the biggest set of balls I've ever laid eyes on. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

153 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:16:24pm

re: #149 jamesfirecat

Then why are there studies which show chemical castration reduces the rate of recidivism among child molesters?

[Link: www.csun.edu...]

Unless it eliminiates all, I maintain my POV.

154 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:16:55pm

re: #153 MandyManners

Unless it eliminiates all, I maintain my POV.

KILLING THEM DEAD MIGHT WORK.

155 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:17:02pm

re: #150 Floral Giraffe

Well, I'm sure it's one of the many, many, many LA properties that got mortgaged to pay the settlement. Every Catholic school that I know of, is on the list of martgaged properties.

Is the Vatican mortgaged yet?

156 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:17:14pm

re: #144 MandyManners

Rape is not about sex. It is about power.

True and the sex is used as the ultimate in control and humiliation. Rape (sexual control and manipulation) and pedophilia go hand in hand.

157 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:17:31pm

re: #102 MandyManners

And, it's not just a Christian issue. Pedophiles are in all faiths. And, no faith.

Sorry if it sounded like I made it sound like pedophilia is a Christian affliction...it is most definitely not and can be found wherever predators (authority figures hungering for power and control over those who can't defend themselves) are over those who are ripe to be preyed upon (children), such as schools, churches, civic organizations.

158 Lidane  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:17:33pm

re: #126 SanFranciscoZionist

I think you're bang on the money, and I know a lot of practicing Catholics who agree with you...devoutly.

That was what the Church didn't seem to get as the scandal unfolded--it wasn't that people were shocked to learn that there were priests who were pedophiles, they were shocked to learn that the Church leadership had protected these men instead of their children, again and again and again.

Exactly.

The issue with these scandals -- apart from the wholly legitimate outrage and revulsion over the abuse -- is that the Church has consistently and knowingly protected and moved these priests around from parish to parish and covered up their crimes instead of just owning up to a problem and nipping it in the bud. They let things fester and rot for decades, which only led to much bigger problems for them down the line.

159 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:17:53pm

re: #152 JasonA

Mandy mentioned this earlier so I had to look it up...
Parishioners asked to help fund sex abuse compensation

That's the biggest set of balls I've ever laid eyes on. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

Hey! Why don't we ask our victims and their families to pay to treat their wounds?!

160 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:18:01pm

re: #137 The Shadow Do

There is absolutely nothing wrong celibacy in the priesthood.

Really? You virtually prohibit people who possess the normal desire to form an intimate relationship with another adult from joining the priesthood, and you expect to get any other result than having a lot of sexually deviant priests?

161 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:18:08pm

I've always figured people realize they have sexual urges towards children and are scared of going to hell for it so get as involved with the church as they can. The next thing you know the church is full of pedophiles.

162 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:18:13pm

re: #152 JasonA

Mandy mentioned this earlier so I had to look it up...
Parishioners asked to help fund sex abuse compensation

That's the biggest set of balls I've ever laid eyes on. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

As I've mentioned before, on this side of the pond, some of my father's fellow parishioners will no longer give cash to the collection at all, preferring to pay bills for the parish, or buy things Father needs for the church or the school. That way they know where the money is going.

163 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:18:26pm

re: #154 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm seeing a theme develop with you.

164 Neutral President  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:18:48pm

re: #153 MandyManners

Unless it eliminiates all, I maintain my POV.

I wouldn't be surprised if further studies show that they just switch their modus operandi in attempting to project power over others.

165 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:18:59pm

re: #151 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

KILLING THEM DEAD MIGHT WORK TOO.

Yes and cutting off people's hands might make sure they never steal again.

I like to think that part of living in a civilized society is trying to find a way to make it possible for everyone to live together happily.

Some people have their brains wired "wrong" (in the sense of noticeably deviating from the norm) so that rather than wanting to have sex with adults they want to do it with children.

Those people deserve to be punished for their actions, but in an ideal world we should have a way for them to be open with others before they act, and thus make sure that they never do.

Says the bleeding heart 21 year old college student liberal....

166 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:19:00pm

re: #156 marjoriemoon

True and the sex is used as the ultimate in control and humiliation. Rape (sexual control and manipulation) and pedophilia go hand in hand.

Not all rape is violent but, all is about violation.

167 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:19:47pm

re: #132 MandyManners

Castration does not stop it because you don't need an erection in order to rape.

True, but you do have to have the desire to rape to rape. Like it or not, and for the record I actually don't really like it but can't find any flaws in the science, there is evidence that Depo-Provera use can drastically reduce recidivism rates:

Significant differences emerged among these three groups, with men actually receiving depo-Provera committing no new sexual offenses and also committing fewer overall offenses and violations compared to the other two groups. In addition, almost one third of men judged to need medication but who did not receive it committed a new offense and almost 60% of these were sexual in nature.

168 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:20:11pm

Saturday night harshing of my buzz.

169 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:20:15pm

re: #166 MandyManners

Not all rape is violent but, all is about violation.

Rape by it's very nature is violent. That doesn't mean that every victim has a knife to their throat, no.

170 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:20:20pm

re: #157 talon_262

Sorry if it sounded like I made it sound like pedophilia is a Christian affliction...it is most definitely not and can be found wherever predators (authority figures hungering for power and control over those who can't defend themselves) are over those who are ripe to be preyed upon (children), such as schools, churches, civic organizations.

Oh, it was running in the back of my mind and your post brought it to the front.

Remember Aisha? The various pre-teen girls who're being raped in marriage right now in Yemen?

171 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:20:55pm

re: #160 aagcobb

Really? You virtually prohibit people who possess the normal desire to form an intimate relationship with another adult from joining the priesthood, and you expect to get any other result than having a lot of sexually deviant priests?

So, no married person has ever molested a child?

172 The Shadow Do  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:21:03pm

re: #160 aagcobb

Really? You virtually prohibit people who possess the normal desire to form an intimate relationship with another adult from joining the priesthood, and you expect to get any other result than having a lot of sexually deviant priests?

Yes, really. Unless you are arguing that these cats were just like you and me until they could not get laid.

Is that what you are saying? They just went sex crazy nuts?

173 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:21:24pm

re: #165 jamesfirecat

Okay. We'll let the reformed ones work at your kids daycare.

Me? I say KILL THEM A LOT.

174 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:21:43pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

As I've mentioned before, on this side of the pond, some of my father's fellow parishioners will no longer give cash to the collection at all, preferring to pay bills for the parish, or buy things Father needs for the church or the school. That way they know where the money is going.

Doesn't that still free up money to be used to pay for this?

175 The Shadow Do  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:21:55pm

re: #166 MandyManners

Not all rape is violent but, all is about violation.

Exactly

176 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:22:15pm

There certainly is a "desire" factor there with pedophilia. Most child abduction cases are white males with girls, though. I don't know the whole psychology specifically between these two groups.

177 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:22:16pm

re: #152 JasonA

Mandy mentioned this earlier so I had to look it up...
Parishioners asked to help fund sex abuse compensation

That's the biggest set of balls I've ever laid eyes on. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

And many many many of us have refused. Reduced our giving or whatever. We should not be paying.

178 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:22:17pm

re: #164 ArchangelMichael

I wouldn't be surprised if further studies show that they just switch their modus operandi in attempting to project power over others.

Fine with me as long as they keep their hands to themselves.

179 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:22:18pm

re: #170 MandyManners

Oh, it was running in the back of my mind and your post brought it to the front.

Remember Aisha? The various pre-teen girls who're being raped in marriage right now in Yemen?

I have not forgotten. But there is good news at the Horn of Africa:

U.S. aids major offensive to retake Mogadishu

180 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:23:19pm

re: #165 jamesfirecat

Yes and cutting off people's hands might make sure they never steal again.

I like to think that part of living in a civilized society is trying to find a way to make it possible for everyone to live together happily.

Some people have their brains wired "wrong" (in the sense of noticeably deviating from the norm) so that rather than wanting to have sex with adults they want to do it with children.

Those people deserve to be punished for their actions, but in an ideal world we should have a way for them to be open with others before they act, and thus make sure that they never do.

Says the bleeding heart 21 year old college student liberal...

Yeah, something like that. As is it probably comes out in confession and nothing gets done about it.

Like I said earlier, people probably realize they have sexual urges towards kids and turn to the church which rather than helping them get help, tells them to pray and stay close to the church, and and the church ends up a warren of pedophiles.

181 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:23:31pm

re: #165 jamesfirecat

Yes and cutting off people's hands might make sure they never steal again.

I like to think that part of living in a civilized society is trying to find a way to make it possible for everyone to live together happily.

Some people have their brains wired "wrong" (in the sense of noticeably deviating from the norm) so that rather than wanting to have sex with adults they want to do it with children.

Those people deserve to be punished for their actions, but in an ideal world we should have a way for them to be open with others before they act, and thus make sure that they never do.

Says the bleeding heart 21 year old college student liberal...

They are NOT "having sex" with those children. They are violating their bodies.

182 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:23:47pm

re: #173 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay. We'll let the reformed ones work at your kids daycare.

Me? I say KILL THEM A LOT.

Quickly dead is OK with me.

183 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:23:50pm

re: #143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Check your wall, Toots.

Lovely!
Moving on to part 2 now.
THANKS>

184 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:24:28pm

re: #167 goddamnedfrank

Again, rape is not about sex.

I'm gonna' disengage from this discussion with you before I pop my cork and pitch a hissy.

185 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:24:30pm

re: #158 Lidane

I agree, except I think it's been for more than decades. It is quite possibly, at the core values as practised, by the church management.
(Protecting our own.)

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:24:47pm

re: #174 MandyManners

Doesn't that still free up money to be used to pay for this?

Not really. The diocese would not have paid for those things.

187 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:24:47pm

re: #174 MandyManners

Doesn't that still free up money to be used to pay for this?

My classmate, now archbishop of Boston, was sent in to clean up Cardinal Lay's mess. In about a year he auctioned off aroundt 85 million dollars of primo property. You see, he is a Franciscan, with a vow of poverty. You do not want a Franciscan for your investment advisor.

188 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:24:56pm

re: #96 MandyManners

Creepy bit of anecdotal evidence to illustrate this: several years ago, I read (forget where) of a serial killer who murdered an 8-year-old girl - he did not do anything to her of a sexual nature beforehand, but masturbated after strangling her to death. That demonstrates pretty bluntly that violent acts turned him on.

This raises the following question, however - if a warped sex drive fuels violent fantasies which in turn are acted out, would killing off the person's sex drive also turn off the desire to commit those acts?

189 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:24:58pm

re: #169 marjoriemoon

Rape by it's very nature is violent. That doesn't mean that every victim has a knife to their throat, no.

Or, a gun to her temple.

190 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:25:29pm

re: #172 The Shadow Do

Yes, really. Unless you are arguing that these cats were just like you and me until they could not get laid.

Is that what you are saying? They just went sex crazy nuts?

No. I'm saying that once you screen out of your potential pool of priests almost everyone who has a normal desire for intimacy with a consenting adult, by definition your remaining pool of candidates is going to include a lot of sexual deviants.

191 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:25:37pm

re: #168 Racer X

*smooch*
Hope that helps!

192 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:25:44pm

Those silly conservative and their wacky email antics......
Nothing Funny About This Monkey Mail

Walt Baker, the prominent CEO of the powerful Tennessee Hospitality Association who was a key figure in gaining approval of the controversial $585 million convention center, sent the kind of "joke" email last night -- comparing First Lady Michelle Obama to Tarzan's Cheeta -- that might stop even Michael Richards in his tracks. (The entire email on the jump.)

Baker forwarded the racist missive -- introduced with this: "Quoting Larry the Cable Guy ... I don't care who you are, this is funny" -- to 12 prominent Nashvillians, including mayoral legislative aide Toby Compton, Nashville

Of course this is common on site like Hot Air, oh well.

193 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:25:59pm

re: #176 marjoriemoon

There certainly is a "desire" factor there with pedophilia. Most child abduction cases are white males with girls, though. I don't know the whole psychology specifically between these two groups.

Bless those who delve into it in order to help stop it.

194 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:26:45pm

re: #181 MandyManners

They are NOT "having sex" with those children. They are violating their bodies.

And, their minds, and their souls.

195 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:26:46pm

re: #179 Dark_Falcon

I have not forgotten. But there is good news at the Horn of Africa:

U.S. aids major offensive to retake Mogadishu

Now, that is good news!

196 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:27:38pm

re: #186 SanFranciscoZionist

Not really. The diocese would not have paid for those things.

I'm not sure how those things are done so thanks for the explanation.

197 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:27:54pm

re: #165 jamesfirecat

Yes and cutting off people's hands might make sure they never steal again.

I like to think that part of living in a civilized society is trying to find a way to make it possible for everyone to live together happily.

Some people have their brains wired "wrong" (in the sense of noticeably deviating from the norm) so that rather than wanting to have sex with adults they want to do it with children.

Those people deserve to be punished for their actions, but in an ideal world we should have a way for them to be open with others before they act, and thus make sure that they never do.

Says the bleeding heart 21 year old college student liberal...

Says the 60-year-old grandmother of 25 to the young skull full of mush, this is not an ideal world.

198 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:28:17pm

re: #187 Decatur Deb

My classmate, now archbishop of Boston, was sent in to clean up Cardinal Lay's mess. In about a year he auctioned off aroundt 85 million dollars of primo property. You see, he is a Franciscan, with a vow of poverty. You do not want a Franciscan for your investment advisor.

Did he get top dollar?

199 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:28:27pm

re: #192 Killgore Trout

I hope your Pope hat is well lined in tinfoil!

200 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:28:52pm

re: #188 publicityStunted

Creepy bit of anecdotal evidence to illustrate this: several years ago, I read (forget where) of a serial killer who murdered an 8-year-old girl - he did not do anything to her of a sexual nature beforehand, but masturbated after strangling her to death. That demonstrates pretty bluntly that violent acts turned him on.

This raises the following question, however - if a warped sex drive fuels violent fantasies which in turn are acted out, would killing off the person's sex drive also turn off the desire to commit those acts?

I'm gonna' stop right here.

201 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:29:33pm

re: #192 Killgore Trout

Those silly conservative and their wacky email antics...
Nothing Funny About This Monkey Mail

Of course this is common on site like Hot Air, oh well.

Calling the First Lady a monkey is lower than low. Its not even dog whistle, its open racism. If conservatives wonder why the President doesn't respect them, they should look to "conservatives" like Baker for the reason.

202 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:29:49pm

re: #198 MandyManners

Did he get top dollar?

The victims got their long-delayed compensation. O'Malley didn't go there to dicker.

203 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:29:51pm

re: #190 aagcobb

No. I'm saying that once you screen out of your potential pool of priests almost everyone who has a normal desire for intimacy with a consenting adult, by definition your remaining pool of candidates is going to include a lot of sexual deviants.

Not necessarily. I've been celibate for 10.5 years but I'm not a pedophile.

204 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:30:15pm

re: #171 MandyManners

So, no married person has ever molested a child?

Of course they have. I'm just pointing out the bleeding obvious-if you screen out almost everyone who desires an intimate relationship with another adult, what do you have left?

205 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:30:23pm

re: #194 Floral Giraffe

And, their minds, and their souls.

Makes me wanna' take up FBV's prescription.

206 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:31:16pm

re: #204 aagcobb

Of course they have. I'm just pointing out the bleeding obvious-if you screen out almost everyone who desires an intimate relationship with another adult, what do you have left?

How about elderly, retired folks?

207 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:31:16pm

re: #202 Decatur Deb

The victims got their long-delayed compensation. O'Malley didn't go there to dicker.

Bless his heart.

208 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:31:47pm

re: #192 Killgore Trout

Those silly conservative and their wacky email antics...
Nothing Funny About This Monkey Mail

Of course this is common on site like Hot Air, oh well.

Ughhh, another stupid person that puts my hometown and state in a bad light. I wonder if he was at the Tea Party Convention...

209 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:31:47pm

re: #204 aagcobb

Of course they have. I'm just pointing out the bleeding obvious-if you screen out almost everyone who desires an intimate relationship with another adult, what do you have left?

Those who are able to deny the flesh?

210 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:31:52pm

re: #203 MandyManners

Not necessarily. I've been celibate for 10.5 years but I'm not a pedophile.

And I didn't say that everyone who is celibate is a pedophile, did I?

211 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:32:02pm

re: #207 MandyManners

Bless his heart.

He was the best of us. Sometimes the system works.

212 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:32:19pm

re: #197 Alouette

Says the 60-year-old grandmother of 25 to the young skull full of mush, this is not an ideal world.

Well, it seems like it's turning out real well when they turn to the church for help.

The fact of the mater is that pedophiles exist and nothing is being done to help find them and get them treatment before they offend.

213 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:32:54pm

re: #209 MandyManners

Those who are able to deny the flesh?

So why does the Catholic Church have a problem, if all of its priests can deny the flesh?

214 keloyd  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:33:05pm

re: #133 MandyManners

If a head of state can be deposed, why not a pope?

About a dozen popes have resigned, been deposed, or were involved in some sort of foul play, but none recently. John XXIII and JPII both had written instructions to resign in case they were kidnapped by Nazis/Communists. JPII also planned to resign in the event of mental incapacitation.
re: #141 ArchangelMichael

Hey... you bogarted my avatar...
Shenanigans!


oops, my bad.

215 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:33:32pm

re: #212 Conservative Moonbat

Well, it seems like it's turning out real well when they turn to the church for help.

The fact of the mater is that pedophiles exist and nothing is being done to help find them and get them treatment before they offend.

That is because they are ashamed of what they are and "in the closet." Do we need a "pedophile pride" movement?

/

216 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:33:43pm

re: #212 Conservative Moonbat

Well, it seems like it's turning out real well when they turn to the church for help.

The fact of the mater is that pedophiles exist and nothing is being done to help find them and get them treatment before they offend.

How can they be found before they offend? It's not as if they have neon signs over them.

217 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:34:14pm

re: #215 Alouette

That is because they are ashamed of what they are and "in the closet." Do we need a "pedophile pride" movement?

/

////We have furry conventions.

218 The Shadow Do  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:34:33pm

When being a homosexual was hidden and forbidden, the church was convenient cover. I know people like this who took shelter there.

Over time a culture developed. Insulative at first, and then fraternal as the numbers grew.

None of it intentional. All of it inevitable. Since no one would call it out.

219 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:34:50pm

re: #211 Decatur Deb

He was the best of us. Sometimes the system works.

I think one of the worst effects that these abuse scandals have had, is the tainting of other priests. The good ones, who now get looked at "differently".

220 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:34:54pm

re: #217 jamesfirecat

///We have furry conventions.

nooo not the furries

221 Honorary Consul General  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:35:04pm

All pedophiles should be put in General Population.

222 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:35:30pm

re: #212 Conservative Moonbat

Well, it seems like it's turning out real well when they turn to the church for help.

The fact of the mater is that pedophiles exist and nothing is being done to help find them and get them treatment before they offend.

Seems they could go about it from another direction. Would it be weird or bizarre for the parents to demand monitors when their children are with the priests? Specifically for these parishes that have had incidents. They could be parents, in fact, taking a rotation, I don't know.

I don't know that you can stop THEM, but you can stop the situation from occurring, or certainly curtail it.

223 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:35:46pm

re: #216 MandyManners

How can they be found before they offend? It's not as if they have neon signs over them.

No they don't. Probably has something to do with the intense social stigma attached to being one, whether or not you've been able to control yourself.

224 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:35:51pm

re: #219 Floral Giraffe

I think one of the worst effects that these abuse scandals have had, is the tainting of other priests. The good ones, who now get looked at "differently".

That's another reason why this should be stopped.

225 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:36:06pm

re: #216 MandyManners

How can they be found before they offend? It's not as if they have neon signs over them.

It's going to get worse. The seminaries and recruiting have collapsed. They no longer can weed out a hundred applicants to get 3 priests. And the ones they have, they will want to keep.

226 The Shadow Do  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:36:07pm

re: #190 aagcobb

No. I'm saying that once you screen out of your potential pool of priests almost everyone who has a normal desire for intimacy with a consenting adult, by definition your remaining pool of candidates is going to include a lot of sexual deviants.

That really does not make sense.

227 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:36:33pm

re: #221 Cannadian Club Akbar

Negative on that idea. If any people are to be killed, they must be brought to trial and then executed in accordance with the law. They must be judged, not lynched.

228 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:36:52pm

re: #221 Cannadian Club Akbar

All pedophiles should be put in General Population.

That would be prevented under the Seventh Amendment.

229 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:37:30pm

re: #223 JasonA

No they don't. Probably has something to do with the intense social stigma attached to being one, whether or not you've been able to control yourself.

So, remove the stigma is an answer?

230 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:37:56pm

re: #225 Decatur Deb

It's going to get worse. The seminaries and recruiting have collapsed. They no longer can weed out a hundred applicants to get 3 priests. And the ones they have, they will want to keep.

I hadn't thought of that.

231 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:38:02pm

re: #215 Alouette

That is because they are ashamed of what they are and "in the closet." Do we need a "pedophile pride" movement?

/

I wasn't really thinking about it that way, but some kind of pushback against the social stigmas to the degree that people aren't too ashamed to seek help before they ruin some child's life.

232 [deleted]  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:38:15pm
233 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:38:26pm

re: #223 JasonA

No they don't. Probably has something to do with the intense social stigma attached to being one, whether or not you've been able to control yourself.

So, should we make pride parades for them?

234 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:38:50pm

re: #229 MandyManners

So, remove the stigma is an answer?

I'm not offering an answer. Just a suggestion to explain why they don't seek help.

235 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:39:02pm

re: #221 Cannadian Club Akbar

All pedophiles should be put in General Population.

No, incapacitation and/or death is too good for them...put them on a desert island with lots of mines, sharks, and armed patrol boats surrounding them to keep them on it.

236 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:39:32pm

re: #221 Cannadian Club Akbar

All pedophiles should be put in General Population.

and Killed?

PLEASE SAY, AND KILLED!

237 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:40:08pm

re: #233 Alouette

So, should we make pride parades for them?

Yes. Pride parades. That's exactly what I'm fucking saying.

Sweet Jeebus.

238 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:41:51pm

re: #218 The Shadow Do

When being a homosexual was hidden and forbidden, the church was convenient cover. I know people like this who took shelter there.

Over time a culture developed. Insulative at first, and then fraternal as the numbers grew.

None of it intentional. All of it inevitable. Since no one would call it out.

Good point.

And this is also why the Republican Party is dissolving into chaos -- because nobody in a position of authority will stand up and denounce the lunatics.

239 Honorary Consul General  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:42:04pm

re: #236 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

and Killed?

PLEASE SAY, AND KILLED!

Those tickle fights can get rough.
//

240 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:43:44pm

re: #239 Cannadian Club Akbar

*such a pinch!*

241 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:44:53pm

re: #216 MandyManners

How can they be found before they offend? It's not as if they have neon signs over them.

Get them to seek psychological help before they hurt anyone. Provide free counciling for anyone who is concerned they might hurt a child. Run PSA encouraging such people so seek free psychological help.

If someone wants to chemically castrated on the government dime so they don't hurt anyone, that's a no-brainer. I've read several cases of where such requests were made and denied.

242 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:44:57pm

re: #234 JasonA

I'm not offering an answer. Just a suggestion to explain why they don't seek help.

Because they know what they do is indefensible on any level.

243 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:44:59pm

Not OK to post comments calling for people to be murdered.

Not even pedophile priests.

I hope I'm not going to have to delete any more comments.

244 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:45:23pm

re: #223 JasonA

No they don't. Probably has something to do with the intense social stigma attached to being one, whether or not you've been able to control yourself.

What are you saying?
I, for one, am very very happy there is "intense social stigma" attached to being a pedophile, and that the stigma is a negative one.

How do you know a person is a pedophile, until they have committed an act that qualifies?

245 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:46:09pm

re: #226 The Shadow Do

That really does not make sense.

I'll try to explain. Let's say 1% of the population are pedophiles. If that were the case, out of 1,000 Catholics who feel a calling to serve God, 10 would be pedophiles. If, lets say 980 of the 990 others ultimately decide they can't handle a lifetime of celibacy, that would leave you with a pool of 10 pedophiles and 10 non-pedophiles for the priesthood. Understand?

246 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:46:32pm

I don't know why my No. 233 was deleted. It did not advocate violence. It merely stated what could happen if a pedophile was held in the general population.

247 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:47:11pm

re: #237 JasonA

Yes. Pride parades. That's exactly what I'm fucking saying.

Sweet Jeebus.

Christ has nothing to do with this.

248 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:47:17pm

re: #238 Charles

Good point.

And this is also why the Republican Party is dissolving into chaos -- because nobody in a position of authority will stand up and denounce the lunatics.

There is nobody in a position of authority.

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:47:28pm

re: #244 reine.de.tout

What are you saying?
I, for one, am very very happy there is "intense social stigma" attached to being a pedophile, and that the stigma is a negative one.

How do you know a person is a pedophile, until they have committed an act that qualifies?

If someone steps forward, tells a shrink that they're a pedophile, and asks for chemical castration to help them keep from hurting a child, I'm willing to take their word and foot the bill.

250 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:48:02pm

re: #244 reine.de.tout

What are you saying?
I, for one, am very very happy there is "intense social stigma" attached to being a pedophile, and that the stigma is a negative one.

How do you know a person is a pedophile, until they have committed an act that qualifies?

Well I think its safe to say if someone stands up and says "Hi my name is Joe and I want to have sex with little boys, but I never have..." You're not going to be able to look at him the same way as you did before you knew that.

I think the theory runs, just having the desire is given an intense social stigma, and so people don't admit to having the desire, so the desire is left unchecked till it bubbles over and ends up being acted upon....

At least in some cases.

251 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:48:04pm

re: #241 Conservative Moonbat

Get them to seek psychological help before they hurt anyone. Provide free counciling for anyone who is concerned they might hurt a child. Run PSA encouraging such people so seek free psychological help.

If someone wants to chemically castrated on the government dime so they don't hurt anyone, that's a no-brainer. I've read several cases of where such requests were made and denied.

Pedophiles and rapists have issues with narcissism so they are typically not inclined to seek out help.

252 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:48:29pm

re: #187 Decatur Deb

My classmate, now archbishop of Boston, was sent in to clean up Cardinal Lay's mess. In about a year he auctioned off aroundt 85 million dollars of primo property. You see, he is a Franciscan, with a vow of poverty. You do not want a Franciscan for your investment advisor.


Cardinal Seán is a good man.
I admire him so much.

253 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:48:46pm

re: #225 Decatur Deb

It's going to get worse. The seminaries and recruiting have collapsed. They no longer can weed out a hundred applicants to get 3 priests. And the ones they have, they will want to keep.

Hopefully, the quality of the new recruits is higher.

254 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:49:00pm

re: #208 talon_262

I wonder if he was at the Tea Party Convention...


Probably. Although I can't find confirmation I wouldn't be surprised if it was a Tea Party mailing list he sent it out to.

255 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:49:28pm

re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist

If someone steps forward, tells a shrink that they're a pedophile, and asks for chemical castration to help them keep from hurting a child, I'm willing to take their word and foot the bill.

I'm willing to foot the bill to have them monitored 24/7/365.

256 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:49:30pm

re: #242 MandyManners

Because they know what they do is indefensible on any level.

You said:
re: #216 MandyManners

How can they be found before they offend? It's not as if they have neon signs over them.

I replied:
re: #223 JasonA

No they don't. Probably has something to do with the intense social stigma attached to being one, whether or not you've been able to control yourself.

So I understood the conversation to be about those who had not committed crimes. People who I would completely agree suffer from a dangerous mental illness. I'm not saying we need to shower these men with hugs but it would be nice to encourage them to seek treatment. It might help save a couple of kids from being scarred, you know?

257 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:49:42pm

re: #231 Conservative Moonbat

I wasn't really thinking about it that way, but some kind of pushback against the social stigmas to the degree that people aren't too ashamed to seek help before they ruin some child's life.

There was quite a thorough and in-depth look at this question on an earlier LGF thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

The discussion starts at #370 with a question raised by austin_blue. A very thought-provoking debate resulted.

258 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:50:42pm

re: #248 Alouette

There is nobody in a position of authority.

Otherwise known as "the inmates running the asylum (or at least, keeping their keepers cowering in fear)"...

259 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:51:06pm

re: #256 JasonA

So I understood the conversation to be about those who had not committed crimes. People who I would completely agree suffer from a dangerous mental illness. I'm not saying we need to shower these men with hugs but it would be nice to encourage them to seek treatment. It might help save a couple of kids from being scarred, you know?

My No. 251.

260 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:51:13pm

I didn't condone what happened to Jeffery Dahlmer. But I didn't mourn either.

261 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:51:35pm

re: #244 reine.de.tout

What are you saying?
I, for one, am very very happy there is "intense social stigma" attached to being a pedophile, and that the stigma is a negative one.

How do you know a person is a pedophile, until they have committed an act that qualifies?

Because they come out and tell someone they are sexually attracted to children.

The negative social stigma keeps pedophiles from being able to seek treatment which might prevent them from acting on their desires. I'm not saying we should have a national "hug a pedo" day. I'm just saying that the stigma has a negative effect on our ability to protect children from pedophiles.

262 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:51:40pm

re: #253 Floral Giraffe

Hopefully, the quality of the new recruits is higher.

Possibly, but they are coming from a much more materialistic and sexualized generation. The nun-taught Catholic schools are about gone. Not a good start.

263 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:52:06pm

re: #256 JasonA

So I understood the conversation to be about those who had not committed crimes. People who I would completely agree suffer from a dangerous mental illness. I'm not saying we need to shower these men with hugs but it would be nice to encourage them to seek treatment. It might help save a couple of kids from being scarred, you know?

I believe that pedophilia is contagious in that many--if not most/all--were once victims.

264 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:52:12pm

Sorry douchebag is sorry for being a douchebag....
Racist e-mail compares First Lady to Chimp

265 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:52:20pm

re: #256 JasonA

So I understood the conversation to be about those who had not committed crimes. People who I would completely agree suffer from a dangerous mental illness. I'm not saying we need to shower these men with hugs but it would be nice to encourage them to seek treatment. It might help save a couple of kids from being scarred, you know?

The way I see it, someone "coming out of the closet" who hasn't yet acted on his urges, is going to expect some kind of reward for being a good citizen. What should we give him?

266 The Shadow Do  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:52:32pm

re: #245 aagcobb

I'll try to explain. Let's say 1% of the population are pedophiles. If that were the case, out of 1,000 Catholics who feel a calling to serve God, 10 would be pedophiles. If, lets say 980 of the 990 others ultimately decide they can't handle a lifetime of celibacy, that would leave you with a pool of 10 pedophiles and 10 non-pedophiles for the priesthood. Understand?

I hate to break this to you, but the pedophilic priests are not there because they feel a calling to God.

Statistics like this are just silly.

267 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:52:45pm

re: #265 Alouette

The way I see it, someone "coming out of the closet" who hasn't yet acted on his urges, is going to expect some kind of reward for being a good citizen. What should we give him?

Treatment?

268 Querent  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:52:49pm

it is i, querent the Up-Ding fairy!

269 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:52:50pm

re: #262 Decatur Deb

Possibly, but they are coming from a much more materialistic and sexualized generation. The nun-taught Catholic schools are about gone. Not a good start.

The Church will survive. Some of it's ways, maybe not. Change really is a good thing, although most people hate & resist it.

270 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:52:54pm

re: #262 Decatur Deb

Possibly, but they are coming from a much more materialistic and sexualized generation. The nun-taught Catholic schools are about gone. Not a good start.

The teaching orders of nuns collapsed in North America. I don't entirely understand why it happened.

271 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:53:01pm

re: #260 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I didn't condone what happened to Jeffery Dahlmer. But I didn't mourn either.

one murderous bastard killed by another murderous bastard...I'm way out of that loop...so be it

272 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:53:15pm

A link to a Ben Smith from Politico article about a Republican donor closing his checkbook after the RNC leak:[Link: www.politico.com...]

273 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:53:17pm

re: #265 Alouette

A good conscience.

274 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:53:36pm

re: #265 Alouette

The way I see it, someone "coming out of the closet" who hasn't yet acted on his urges, is going to expect some kind of reward for being a good citizen. What should we give him?

The government should foot the bill for whatever kind of treatment he feels he needs in order to help keep him from acting on his impulses.

275 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:53:52pm

re: #270 Dark_Falcon

The teaching orders of nuns collapsed in North America. I don't entirely understand why it happened.

Wrong Madonna.

276 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:53:59pm

re: #265 Alouette

The way I see it, someone "coming out of the closet" who hasn't yet acted on his urges, is going to expect some kind of reward for being a good citizen. What should we give him?

Help.

277 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:54:24pm

re: #267 JasonA

Treatment?

How do you treat this disorder? With meds? Group therapy? or "legal outlets" (DVD's of CGI Japanese schoolgirls, for example)?

278 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:54:38pm

re: #268 Querent

it is i, querent the Up-Ding fairy!

Up-ding you!

279 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:54:51pm

re: #274 jamesfirecat

The government should foot the bill for whatever kind of treatment he feels he needs in order to help keep him from acting on his impulses.

why?...let him pay for his own treatment til his money runs out....the govt is not the answer to everything

280 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:54:56pm

re: #266 The Shadow Do

I hate to break this to you, but the pedophilic priests are not there because they feel a calling to God.

Statistics like this are just silly.

So you really don't understand that when you disqualify most normal people from the priesthood, what you have left to choose from is going to include a lot of abnormal people?

281 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:55:31pm

re: #264 Killgore Trout

Sorry douchebag is sorry for being a douchebag...
Racist e-mail compares First Lady to Chimp

[Video]

That shithead should be run out of Nashville on a rail. Given the history of Tennessee, he should have known better. His actions cannot be regarded as anything but racism.

282 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:55:37pm

re: #277 Alouette

How do you treat this disorder? With meds? Group therapy? or "legal outlets" (DVD's of CGI Japanese schoolgirls, for example)?

Wouldn't the last option only fuel the desires?

283 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:56:04pm

re: #279 albusteve

why?...let him pay for his own treatment til his money runs out...the govt is not the answer to everything

Excuse me for saying that the government spending money to keep possible pedophiles from ruining their own lives not to mention scarring children for life as well is a cause worth of our tax dollars.

284 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:56:46pm

re: #282 MandyManners

Wouldn't the last option only fuel the desires?

I'm not a shrink, I don't know how this disorder is treated. What if it is a genetic condition?

285 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:57:09pm

re: #280 aagcobb

So you really don't understand that when you disqualify most normal people from the priesthood, what you have left to choose from is going to include a lot of abnormal people?

Celibacy is an abnormality? Really? When the Bible forbids fornication, it is telling people to engage in abnormal behavior?

I'm stunned that a moral code is considered an abnormal behavior.

286 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:57:26pm

re: #251 MandyManners

Pedophiles and rapists have issues with narcissism so they are typically not inclined to seek out help.

I don't think this is always the case. Neither of us are experts here. I agree that those most likely to offend will be as you describe.

I still say it's stupid that we only offer free counciling to these people after they have offended.

287 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:57:39pm

re: #284 Alouette

I'm not a shrink, I don't know how this disorder is treated. What if it is a genetic condition?

I ain't going there.

288 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:57:46pm

I keep waiting for the other Catholic countries stories to come out. Wondering, how many more of these stories there are? Wishing that each one, would be the last. Sorry for the children who are being put through these horrible experiences.

289 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:57:48pm

re: #281 Dark_Falcon

That shithead should be run out of Nashville on a rail. Given the history of Tennessee, he should have known better. His actions cannot be regarded as anything but racism.

He should be but maybe not so much. The guy who emailed the Obama witchdoctor pic is still a Tea Party hero, RSM is still fine and Michelle Malkin still writes for VDARE and nobody seems to mind.

290 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:57:49pm

re: #277 Alouette

How do you treat this disorder? With meds? Group therapy? or "legal outlets" (DVD's of CGI Japanese schoolgirls, for example)?

How about a date with Go Go Yubari?

291 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:58:14pm

re: #290 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How about a date with Go Go Yubari?

That would work. :)

292 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:58:19pm

re: #282 MandyManners

Wouldn't the last option only fuel the desires?

Not if it's GoGo.

293 Four More Tears  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:58:38pm

re: #284 Alouette

I'm not a shrink, I don't know how this disorder is treated. What if it is a genetic condition?

That would mean god made them that way. That would make him a huge dick.

294 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:58:43pm

re: #286 Conservative Moonbat

I don't think this is always the case. Neither of us are experts here. I agree that those most likely to offend will be as you describe.

I still say it's stupid that we only offer free counciling to these people after they have offended.

Free, hell. They can pay for it from the wages they get running the prison's laundry system.

295 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:58:52pm

re: #292 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am NOT looking that up.

296 Querent  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:58:57pm

re: #152 JasonA

Mandy mentioned this earlier so I had to look it up...
Parishioners asked to help fund sex abuse compensation

That's the biggest set of balls I've ever laid eyes on. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

And they clank like church bells.

297 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:59:25pm

re: #295 Floral Giraffe

Oh yes you are...

298 William of Orange  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:59:42pm

I thought this was old news. These events were known several weeks ago. But since then this issue is spreading like wildfire. Over here in The Netherlands a similar thing has come to the surface. As of last Tuesday 34 new cases have surfaced.

Source (in Dutch):
[Link: www.bnr.nl...]

The Catholic chirch is under fire, and not just by this thing of sexual abuse. The gay community is also roaring it's head in the church.

[Link: ekklesia.co.uk...]

Large numbers of gay Roman Catholics in the Netherlands attemped to participate in mass yesterday (28 February) at St John’s Cathedral in the city of Den Bosch. They left singing and shouting slogans after being refused the sacrament by the bishop.

The attempt followed controversy over Church decisions to exclude people in same-sex relationships from receiving the bread and wine in the sacrament that lies at the heart of Catholic worship.

The issue has caused heated controversy in the predominantly Catholic south of the country since a priest refused to distribute the sacrament to Gijs Vermuelen, 24, a bartender who lives with his male partner. Vermuelen was this year elected Prince of the Carnival in the town of Reusel, an annual light-hearted event.

But at the mass on the eve of the Carnival, Father Luc Buyens was willing to bless the 'prince', but would not give him a communion wafer. On Sunday 21 February, gay people from across the country attended Buyens’ church in protest. After consulting with the Bishop of Den Bosch, the priest sent the entire congregation away without mass.

299 hambone  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:59:49pm

"Sexual abuse of children is not a specific problem of the Catholic church. It has neither to do with celibacy, nor with homosexuality nor with Catholic sexual doctrine," Zollitsch told weekly Welt am Sonntag earlier this week.
Man, they trot out the same dog and pony show every time.
The Mosques should maybe try it.
"Suicide Bombing is not a specific problem of the Muslim Religion. It has neither to do with celibacy, nor with homosexuality nor with Muslim sexual doctrine," Nope, I don't believe that one either

300 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:59:57pm

re: #295 Floral Giraffe

I am NOT looking that up.

Psychopath in "Kill Bill"

301 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:00:03pm

re: #285 MandyManners

Celibacy is an abnormality? Really? When the Bible forbids fornication, it is telling people to engage in abnormal behavior?

I'm stunned that a moral code is considered an abnormal behavior.

I hate to break this to you, but natural selection has endowed most of us with a strong desire to engage in sexual relations with another adult. So when a job description includes spending your entire life alone, the vast majority of people, even those who want to serve God, are going to rule themselves out.

302 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:00:11pm

re: #279 albusteve

why?...let him pay for his own treatment til his money runs out...the govt is not the answer to everything

The government is going to pay for the police, the medical examiner, the prosecutor, court, corrections officers, prison medical staff that ensue from your short sightedness. You'd be better off paying a smaller bill up front and having some more un-raped to death children running around.

303 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:00:29pm

re: #295 Floral Giraffe

I am NOT looking that up.

You don't have to.

304 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:00:33pm

re: #288 Floral Giraffe

I keep waiting for the other Catholic countries stories to come out. Wondering, how many more of these stories there are? Wishing that each one, would be the last. Sorry for the children who are being put through these horrible experiences.

The problems are huge. We've seen a few cases come out in Ireland and South America but I suspect that most of the predominantly Catholic countries still have problems prosecuting because of the Church's influence. Most of these crimes will go unnoticed.

305 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:00:38pm

re: #297 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh yes you are...

No, I'm smarter than that. And, I like the few brain cells, that I have.
I'll um, trust your judgement, yeah that's it!
I'll trust your judgement on this issue!

306 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:00:45pm

re: #289 Killgore Trout

He should be but maybe not so much. The guy who emailed the Obama witchdoctor pic is still a Tea Party hero, RSM is still fine and Michelle Malkin still writes for VDARE and nobody seems to mind.

I mind, Killgore, I mind.

307 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:01:11pm

re: #265 Alouette

The way I see it, someone "coming out of the closet" who hasn't yet acted on his urges, is going to expect some kind of reward for being a good citizen. What should we give him?

Free therapy.

308 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:01:19pm

re: #263 MandyManners

I believe that pedophilia is contagious in that many--if not most/all--were once victims.

I've thought about that as part of this problem. Do these priests find normalcy in these actions because it happened to them? Even if they know it's immoral, because they do know.

309 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:02:11pm

re: #300 Alouette

Psychopath in "Kill Bill"

HAH! Lizard rescue! Thanks!

310 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:02:13pm
311 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:02:28pm

re: #307 Conservative Moonbat

Free therapy.

What is the recommended therapy for this disorder? Does it have to continue for a lifetime, or is there some point at which the patient is "cured"?

312 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:02:29pm

re: #274 jamesfirecat

The government should foot the bill for whatever kind of treatment he feels he needs in order to help keep him from acting on his impulses.

Eh, I'd go for something more standardized than that. Empirically tested methods.

313 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:02:58pm

re: #285 MandyManners

Celibacy is an abnormality? Really? When the Bible forbids fornication, it is telling people to engage in abnormal behavior?

I'm stunned that a moral code is considered an abnormal behavior.

I am too, Mandy.

And you know - every priest was at one time a teenaged boy.

It's not as if people becoming priests don't know what they are giving up, or that they are never tempted again. They are.

Mature adults manage to deal with the cards they've chosen.

314 The Shadow Do  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:03:12pm

re: #280 aagcobb

So you really don't understand that when you disqualify most normal people from the priesthood, what you have left to choose from is going to include a lot of abnormal people?

This is not the selective service, my friend. It is voluntary service. Electing to become a priest is certainly not normal, but it is well known in its requirements and no one is inducted. There is no mystery there.

Sex or lack thereof is not at all the issue. Unless that is the lens you choose to use of course.

315 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:03:20pm

re: #260 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I didn't condone what happened to Jeffery Dahlmer. But I didn't mourn either.

Prison justice can be brutal indeed...cons locked up in stir may not have have many moral codes, but, anecdotally, pedophiles/child killers are generally on the short list of people with short lives in GenPop (which is why they don't get put in GenPop anymore).

/and I didn't mourn when Dahmer got his, either

316 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:03:32pm

re: #310 Killgore Trout

Semi-OT: Chris Hitchens Lemon Party...
Christopher Hitchens claims to have slept with two Tory ministers.

It used to be considered shabby to tell.

317 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:03:53pm

re: #301 aagcobb

I hate to break this to you, but natural selection has endowed most of us with a strong desire to engage in sexual relations with another adult. So when a job description includes spending your entire life alone, the vast majority of people, even those who want to serve God, are going to rule themselves out.

Excuse me? I'm a Christian so I believe in the ability to operate on a level that is not dictated by purely physical considerations.

318 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:04:50pm

re: #314 The Shadow Do

This is not the selective service, my friend. It is voluntary service. Electing to become a priest is certainly not normal, but it is well known in its requirements and no one is inducted. There is no mystery there.

Sex or lack thereof is not at all the issue. Unless that is the lens you choose to use of course.

I think you are in deep denial.

319 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:05:02pm

re: #310 Killgore Trout

Semi-OT: Chris Hitchens Lemon Party...
Christopher Hitchens claims to have slept with two Tory ministers.

Male or female? Or both? At the same time?

320 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:05:30pm

re: #316 Decatur Deb

It used to be considered shabby to tell.

It's worse than that, he doesn't name names.
Leaves the speculative gates WIDE open!

321 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:05:37pm

re: #308 marjoriemoon

I've thought about that as part of this problem. Do these priests find normalcy in these actions because it happened to them? Even if they know it's immoral, because they do know.

This has nothing to do with priests. This is about the crime itself, how it perpetuates itself at large.

322 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:05:43pm

re: #277 Alouette

How do you treat this disorder? With meds? Group therapy? or "legal outlets" (DVD's of CGI Japanese schoolgirls, for example)?

Meds are the last resort. There are psychological treatments, particularly if the urge to abuse is tied to the individual's own childhood abuse.

Treatment is mandated for all offenders in jail and after they are released. There should be some pretty good data on treatment modalities and their effectiveness.

323 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:06:28pm

re: #279 albusteve

why?...let him pay for his own treatment til his money runs out...the govt is not the answer to everything

cheaper than keeping 'em in prison after they offend

324 William of Orange  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:06:30pm

Abuse of power, that's what it is....

325 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:06:38pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout

I am too, Mandy.

And you know - every priest was at one time a teenaged boy.

It's not as if people becoming priests don't know what they are giving up, or that they are never tempted again. They are.

Mature adults manage to deal with the cards they've chosen.

How long before we're judged as the freaks?!

326 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:06:43pm

re: #311 Alouette

What is the recommended therapy for this disorder? Does it have to continue for a lifetime, or is there some point at which the patient is "cured"?

The recommended therapy that I've heard of giving the best result is a lifetime of chemical castration since that does a lot to kill the sex drive, and thus the desire to commit such unspeakable acts. So no, there is no point at which the patient is "cured"...

327 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:07:29pm

re: #283 jamesfirecat

Excuse me for saying that the government spending money to keep possible pedophiles from ruining their own lives not to mention scarring children for life as well is a cause worth of our tax dollars.

no, there is no excuse for making me pay for something like that, til his funds run dry

328 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:07:29pm

re: #317 MandyManners

Excuse me? I'm a Christian so I believe in the ability to operate on a level that is not dictated by purely physical considerations.

Sorry, if you were a Christian you would know that humans have lacked that capacity since the Fall. Thats why we need a savior, because we can't save ourselves from our own sinful nature.

329 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:07:52pm

I have a feeling that there are more pedophiles out there who live lives of quiet desperation who never act on their urges then there are ones who satisfy them.

While these stories from the Church make my soul sick they must continue to be exposed so that the victims are heard. The perpetrators and their enablers must be held accountable if they are still alive.
I've always felt that those who enabled pedophile Priests should, once their have served any prison term, be sent to live a true live of poverty and chastity. I think that the perpetrators if ever released from prison are still the responsibility of the Church.

What is telling is that in some dioceses this shit did not go on. It may have to do with the seminary that served the area doing a better job of formation and recruitment. It could be that in some places the local Bishop or Cardinal did not pass the Priest on, but instead took care of the problem by turning in perpetrators.

Things are better.
What happened in the past is not what will happen in the future due to new policies.

330 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:08:25pm

re: #322 Conservative Moonbat

Meds are the last resort. There are psychological treatments, particularly if the urge to abuse is tied to the individual's own childhood abuse.

Treatment is mandated for all offenders in jail and after they are released. There should be some pretty good data on treatment modalities and their effectiveness.

I have some "capital" ideas.

331 Querent  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:08:43pm

re: #265 Alouette

The way I see it, someone "coming out of the closet" who hasn't yet acted on his urges, is going to expect some kind of reward for being a good citizen. What should we give him?

A wedgie?

332 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:08:52pm

re: #302 goddamnedfrank

The government is going to pay for the police, the medical examiner, the prosecutor, court, corrections officers, prison medical staff that ensue from your short sightedness. You'd be better off paying a smaller bill up front and having some more un-raped to death children running around.

yeah sure....clean him out first

333 b_Snark  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:09:40pm

re: #327 albusteve

no, there is no excuse for making me pay for something like that, til his funds run dry

You want to reap the benefits of living in a cooperative society you have to be willing to share in the costs.

334 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:10:26pm

re: #321 MandyManners

This has nothing to do with priests. This is about the crime itself, how it perpetuates itself at large.

We do know, however, that child abuse victims grow up to abuse and it would be no surprise to find that in at least some of these priests.

I had a great article on this from a study that was done. I'm still looking for it.

335 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:10:40pm

re: #333 b_sharp

You want to reap the benefits of living in a cooperative society you have to be willing to share in the costs.

I share plenty of costs....criminals can share theirs too...you have a beef with that I suppose?....can you read?

336 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:11:16pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout

I am too, Mandy.

And you know - every priest was at one time a teenaged boy.

It's not as if people becoming priests don't know what they are giving up, or that they are never tempted again. They are.

Mature adults manage to deal with the cards they've chosen.

Indeed.
Those who break their vows of celibacy are the minority, not the majority. Celibacy is a struggle for some for others it is a calling, but in no way is it abnormal.

337 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:11:29pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout

I am too, Mandy.

And you know - every priest was at one time a teenaged boy.

It's not as if people becoming priests don't know what they are giving up, or that they are never tempted again. They are.

Mature adults manage to deal with the cards they've chosen.

Exactly, and most mature adults will decide the priesthood is not for them. My point is that that is going to leave a lot of immature adults as candidates for priesthood.

338 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:11:30pm

re: #311 Alouette

What is the recommended therapy for this disorder? Does it have to continue for a lifetime, or is there some point at which the patient is "cured"?

I really don't know but it's going to vary from individual to individual.

339 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:11:53pm

re: #328 aagcobb

Sorry, if you were a Christian you would know that humans have lacked that capacity since the Fall. Thats why we need a savior, because we can't save ourselves from our own sinful nature.

That's just silly.

The idea is that we try.

340 The Shadow Do  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:12:02pm

re: #318 aagcobb

I think you are in deep denial.

You think pedophilia is grounded in celibacy evidently.

That seems odd to me (deep denial?), but what the heck, if that is how you see things...

341 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:12:23pm

re: #334 marjoriemoon

We do know, however, that child abuse victims grow up to abuse and it would be no surprise to find that in at least some of these priests.

I had a great article on this from a study that was done. I'm still looking for it.

It's not just in these priests. It's the same throughout all pedophilia.

342 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:12:35pm

re: #4 Obdicut

Will this never end?

Late as usual, but I have to ask why do you ask? Did you really think that there was something unique about American priests, and then (a few years later) that there was something unique about Irish priests and now that there is something unique about German priests (except that they are even rarer there)?

Shall we count the ways to come?/

343 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:13:30pm

re: #334 marjoriemoon

We do know, however, that child abuse victims grow up to abuse and it would be no surprise to find that in at least some of these priests.

I had a great article on this from a study that was done. I'm still looking for it.

I'm interested in that article.
While you're looking, you might be interested in this.

344 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:13:48pm

re: #342 Naso Tang

Late as usual, but I have to ask why do you ask? Did you really think that there was something unique about American priests, and then (a few years later) that there was something unique about Irish priests and now that there is something unique about German priests (except that they are even rarer there)?

Shall we count the ways to come?/

They share a trait--their countries have a free press.

345 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:13:52pm

re: #336 webevintage

Indeed.
Those who break their vows of celibacy are the minority, not the majority. Celibacy is a struggle for some for others it is a calling, but in no way is it abnormal.

I didn't say celibacy is abnormal, but its not a life that most people with a normal sex drive would choose. Pedophiles, otoh, can't openly express their sexuality anyway, and some of them may see a vow of celibacy as something which might help them control their urges.

346 lostlakehiker  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:14:33pm

re: #23 Jaerik

Personally, I see it as a failure of most religions that place a higher importance on an individual's personal sins against god than that person's effect on other people in this world. The church honestly seems more concerned with these clergy members' private moral transgressions than the devastating effect their actions have on innocent children and members of their congregation. And (in the case of Protestant churches where they are allowed to marry), their own families.

Whatever happened to that quote by Jesus that whatever wrong you do to the least of men, you do to Him?

And aren't there all sorts of provisions in the Ten Commandments and other Torah law against wronging other people? Don't kill them. Don't bear false witness against them. Don't steal. (From them. Who else IS there to steal from?)

By implication and analogy, don't rape them. Or if you look at it from the perspective of adult males, don't covet their children as you might their wife.

Nothing in Christian teaching, tradition, or law, or in Judaic law before it, permits this. But human wickedness finds a way to twist every law. Religious law is no exception.

347 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:14:41pm

re: #345 aagcobb

I didn't say celibacy is abnormal, but its not a life that most people with a normal sex drive would choose. Pedophiles, otoh, can't openly express their sexuality anyway, and some of them may see a vow of celibacy as something which might help them control their urges.

Pedophilia is not sexuality no more than rape is sexuality.

348 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:14:50pm

re: #337 aagcobb

Exactly, and most mature adults will decide the priesthood is not for them. My point is that that is going to leave a lot of immature adults as candidates for priesthood.

I beg to differ.
I know many priests who are quite mature and quite normal.

In fact, I know more priests who are quite mature and quite normal than I do priests who aren't.

349 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:14:59pm

re: #328 aagcobb

Sorry, if you were a Christian you would know that humans have lacked that capacity since the Fall. Thats why we need a savior, because we can't save ourselves from our own sinful nature.

I'm surprised that the real Christians here have let you off so nicely so far, but perhaps I'm jumping the gun.

You are an ass.

350 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:15:04pm

Good grief. Why do I even try?

351 MandyManners  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:15:28pm

I'm dropping the rope.

352 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:15:45pm

re: #349 Naso Tang

I'm surprised that the real Christians here have let you off so nicely so far, but perhaps I'm jumping the gun.

You are an ass.

We're trying to maintain our Christian attitude.

353 The Shadow Do  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:15:50pm

re: #351 MandyManners

I'm dropping the rope.

Me too

354 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:16:30pm

re: #328 aagcobb

Sorry, if you were a Christian you would know that humans have lacked that capacity since the Fall. Thats why we need a savior, because we can't save ourselves from our own sinful nature.

Wow.
"If you were a Christian"?

355 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:17:35pm

re: #343 reine.de.tout

I'm interested in that article.
While you're looking, you might be interested in this.

I can't find it! As I recall, it was an article that was both supportive and critical of this study. I'm still looking.

356 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:17:55pm

re: #250 jamesfirecat

Well I think its safe to say if someone stands up and says "Hi my name is Joe and I want to have sex with little boys, but I never have..." You're not going to be able to look at him the same way as you did before you knew that.

I think the theory runs, just having the desire is given an intense social stigma, and so people don't admit to having the desire, so the desire is left unchecked till it bubbles over and ends up being acted upon...

At least in some cases.

Well, then - folks should handle this in private sessions with a psychologist, then.

Besides which - as far as I'm concerned - the negative social stigma attaches to those who have acted on their urges - not to those who haven't.

357 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:18:02pm

re: #347 MandyManners

Pedophilia is not sexuality no more than rape is sexuality.

Then why does chemical castration work to cut down on recidivism among these people?

358 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:18:10pm

re: #340 The Shadow Do

You think pedophilia is grounded in celibacy evidently.

That seems odd to me (deep denial?), but what the heck, if that is how you see things...

Thats ridiculous-why don't you try to understand my real argument, instead of knocking down a strawman? Celibacy doesn't cause pedophilia, celibacy screens out most potential candidates for the priesthood who have a normal sex drive. If you eliminate most normal people from your applicant pool, a higher % of your remaining applicants won't be normal. Why can't you understand that?

359 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:18:43pm

re: #351 MandyManners

I'm dropping the rope.

Well, that's a change. Usually, you make people piss up it. ;)

360 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:20:22pm

pedophilia is not deep rooted in celibacy...that's just some corny make up bullshit

361 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:20:49pm

re: #328 aagcobb

Sorry, if you were a Christian you would know that humans have lacked that capacity since the Fall. Thats why we need a savior, because we can't save ourselves from our own sinful nature.

I just got here and I come in on this crap comment...

Whoa... cheap-assed excuses like that are worthless. Blaming you moral capacity of some mythical event that you can't even prove is a bunch of bullshit.

362 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:21:15pm

re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist

If someone steps forward, tells a shrink that they're a pedophile, and asks for chemical castration to help them keep from hurting a child, I'm willing to take their word and foot the bill.

I would be too.
As I said - the negative social stigma attaches to those who've acted on their impulses, not to those who haven't.

363 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:22:34pm

re: #361 Walter L. Newton

I just got here and I come in on this crap comment...

Whoa... cheap-assed excuses like that are worthless. Blaming you moral capacity of some mythical event that you can't even prove is a bunch of bullshit.

you should read some of the bizarre bullshit upthread....amazing really

364 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:22:34pm

re: #358 aagcobb

Thats ridiculous-why don't you try to understand my real argument, instead of knocking down a strawman? Celibacy doesn't cause pedophilia, celibacy screens out most potential candidates for the priesthood who have a normal sex drive. If you eliminate most normal people from your applicant pool, a higher % of your remaining applicants won't be normal. Why can't you understand that?

Because it's incorrect.

365 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:23:32pm

re: #361 Walter L. Newton

I just got here and I come in on this crap comment...

Whoa... cheap-assed excuses like that are worthless. Blaming you moral capacity of some mythical event that you can't even prove is a bunch of bullshit.

Walter I never thought I would say this, but I'm glad to see you here, you added some much need maturity and knowledge to our last debate on this particular topic.

366 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:24:00pm

Pedophilia does not make one a rapist...until the urge is acted upon and then one becomes a rapist because sex with a child is always rape.

It must be a horrible, horrible thing to know you are only attracted to children and like I said I think there are more of these folks out there whole never act then those who do.

I have a feeling that it is an aspect of human sexuality that does not get the attention it should in regards to research and funding because it is just consider so...icky, for lack of a better word.

367 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:25:22pm

re: #365 jamesfirecat

Walter I never thought I would say this, but I'm glad to see you here, you added some much need maturity and knowledge to our last debate on this particular topic.

you sure need it...let Walter straighten you out....remind him how you think peds are forced by Church dogma.....post #2

368 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:25:40pm

re: #360 albusteve

pedophilia is not deep rooted in celibacy...that's just some corny make up bullshit

I don't think so either, but with the priests, at any rate, it's some sort of weird psychology combing rape, pedophilia, homosexuality and I do think celibacy, at least not allowing sex with a woman, has to add to the mix.

369 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:26:19pm

re: #366 webevintage

Pedophilia does not make one a rapist...until the urge is acted upon and then one becomes a rapist because sex with a child is always rape.

It must be a horrible, horrible thing to know you are only attracted to children and like I said I think there are more of these folks out there whole never act then those who do.

I have a feeling that it is an aspect of human sexuality that does not get the attention it should in regards to research and funding because it is just consider so...icky, for lack of a better word.

yes, it's true....you are not a ped til you are a ped....got it

370 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:26:38pm

re: #361 Walter L. Newton

I just got here and I come in on this crap comment...

Whoa... cheap-assed excuses like that are worthless. Blaming you moral capacity of some mythical event that you can't even prove is a bunch of bullshit.

Walter, people were earlier wanting you to be here, thinking about some of the monologues you've earlier presented. Could you post a link to that play you wrote on the subject at hand?

371 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:27:13pm

re: #368 marjoriemoon

I don't think so either, but with the priests, at any rate, it's some sort of weird psychology combing rape, pedophilia, homosexuality and I do think celibacy, at least not allowing sex with a woman, has to add to the mix.

they are religious freaks....they should be hunted down and whatever

372 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:27:47pm

re: #349 Naso Tang

I'm surprised that the real Christians here have let you off so nicely so far, but perhaps I'm jumping the gun.

You are an ass.

Fine, you're all right and I'm wrong. How could I not see that seminaries are being overwhelmed with applicants, and the vow of celibacy has nothing to do with the sex scandals hitting the Catholic Church all over the world. I'm an idiot.

373 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:28:06pm

re: #347 MandyManners

Pedophilia is not sexuality no more than rape is sexuality.

There is no doubt much truth in that, but on the other hand the implication, the honest implication, is that sexuality is normal and therefore fundamentally perfect.

In nature it is often however a matter of taking advantage of circumstance, meaning domination of circumstance, or vice versa.

We think all humans are above that, or should be.

374 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:28:41pm

re: #372 aagcobb

Fine, you're all right and I'm wrong. How could I not see that seminaries are being overwhelmed with applicants, and the vow of celibacy has nothing to do with the sex scandals hitting the Catholic Church all over the world. I'm an idiot.

correct

375 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:28:52pm

re: #366 webevintage

Pedophilia does not make one a rapist...until the urge is acted upon and then one becomes a rapist because sex with a child is always rape.

It must be a horrible, horrible thing to know you are only attracted to children and like I said I think there are more of these folks out there whole never act then those who do.

I have a feeling that it is an aspect of human sexuality that does not get the attention it should in regards to research and funding because it is just consider so...icky, for lack of a better word.

As an author who has adapted a book on the subject to stage, I spent a lot of time researching this subject, and spending time speaking to a number of experts in the field.

You last paragraph is spot on. There are a number of newer ways that some doctors have been approaching pedophilia, and it show some promise.

But the funding is almost nil because in the long run, most people just want the subject (and the people who suffer from this) to just go away.

Shameless self promotion if you want a little more information on the topic...

[Link: newton.acrossthebow.com...]

376 Querent  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:29:22pm

re: #289 Killgore Trout

Bleep?

Malkin writing for VDARE?

Bleepity-bleep bleep?!

377 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:29:32pm

re: #375 Walter L. Newton

As an author who has adapted a book on the subject to stage, I spent a lot of time researching this subject, and spending time speaking to a number of experts in the field.

You last paragraph is spot on. There are a number of newer ways that some doctors have been approaching pedophilia, and it show some promise.

But the funding is almost nil because in the long run, most people just want the subject (and the people who suffer from this) to just go away.

Shameless self promotion if you want a little more information on the topic...

[Link: newton.acrossthebow.com...]

Thank you for posting that.

378 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:30:26pm

re: #376 Querent

Bleep?

Malkin writing for VDARE?

Bleepity-bleep bleep?!

Yes, sir. She really does do that. She's a monstrous fool for doing so, but she does do it.

379 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:31:08pm

re: #370 Dark_Falcon

Walter, people were earlier wanting you to be here, thinking about some of the monologues you've earlier presented. Could you post a link to that play you wrote on the subject at hand?

Yes... perusal copies of the script are always offered free to Lizards, if you want one, go to this link and email me your request.

All emails and personal communications are kept in strictest confidentiality.

[Link: newton.acrossthebow.com...]

380 lostlakehiker  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:31:21pm

re: #347 MandyManners

Pedophilia is not sexuality no more than rape is sexuality.

Unfortunately, rape is indeed sexual. When armies come through and rape every woman, they're bound to catch some of them ovulating, and some of those will get pregnant.

Assertions that reproduction isn't sexual are a bit off the mark.

That said, rape isn't what most men want. We're a pair-bonding species. We want a spouse, not a victim.

381 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:32:07pm

re: #372 aagcobb

Fine, you're all right and I'm wrong. How could I not see that seminaries are being overwhelmed with applicants, and the vow of celibacy has nothing to do with the sex scandals hitting the Catholic Church all over the world. I'm an idiot.

I'm sorry for the ass bit. Knee jerk as it were..

I was commenting on your comment thus:

Sorry, if you were a Christian you would know that humans have lacked that capacity since the Fall. Thats why we need a savior, because we can't save ourselves from our own sinful nature.

That is asinine; and I know you didn't make it up yourself, so my comment is not personal.

382 The Shadow Do  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:32:28pm

re: #358 aagcobb

Thats ridiculous-why don't you try to understand my real argument, instead of knocking down a strawman? Celibacy doesn't cause pedophilia, celibacy screens out most potential candidates for the priesthood who have a normal sex drive. If you eliminate most normal people from your applicant pool, a higher % of your remaining applicants won't be normal. Why can't you understand that?

Celibacy screens out those who are not serious about the priesthood. Sex drive is a given of course. Simple, and yet abused obviously.

383 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:32:47pm

re: #380 lostlakehiker

Unfortunately, rape is indeed sexual. When armies come through and rape every woman, they're bound to catch some of them ovulating, and some of those will get pregnant.

Assertions that reproduction isn't sexual are a bit off the mark.

That said, rape isn't what most men want. We're a pair-bonding species. We want a spouse, not a victim.

bah...obviously not necessarily so

384 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:33:38pm

men cheat on their wives in droves...like locust

385 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:33:50pm

re: #2 jamesfirecat

I have two suggestions.

1: Let priests be able to get married, my knee jerk reaction is that if they were able to have normal healthy intercourse they wouldn't be forced to do things like this...

2: Take a page out of the boyscout handbook and practice two deep leadership, though I guess that would mean they'd have to build bigger confessionals...

You really don't mean any of this, do you? You were trying to be funny, yes? Please say yes?

386 lostlakehiker  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:33:52pm

re: #383 albusteve

bah...obviously not necessarily so

We, meaning most men. There are, of course, obviously exceptions.

387 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:34:43pm

re: #4 Obdicut

Will this never end?

This may very well be the tip of the iceberg. All we are hearing about is the Catholic Church, one of *many* old religious institutions in the US and elsewhere. News of this sort triggers only the most negative of emotions but in the end, my compassion goes to the ones victimized.

388 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:35:39pm

re: #384 albusteve

men cheat on their wives in droves...like locust

Speaking for yourself, of course..

389 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:35:41pm

re: #380 lostlakehiker

Unfortunately, rape is indeed sexual.

I see it as one person getting sexual pleasure from hurting and degrading someone else. It's a sadistic act, at core.

390 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:36:21pm

re: #385 Walter L. Newton

You really don't mean any of this, do you? You were trying to be funny, yes? Please say yes?

Ironically, number one was meant mostly in jest and number two which had the joke was more serious.

I'd like to think that making sure there's no time when only one priest is left alone with a young child couldn't make things worse....

391 BryanS  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:37:36pm

Hitchens says it best when he derides the catholic church sex abuse policy as "no child's behind left"

392 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:38:44pm

re: #361 Walter L. Newton

I just got here and I come in on this crap comment...

Whoa... cheap-assed excuses like that are worthless. Blaming you moral capacity of some mythical event that you can't even prove is a bunch of bullshit.

I didn't mean it in the literal sense, though it certainly sounds that way. I'm fully aware that humans powerful sex drive is a product of natural selection.

393 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:39:13pm

re: #372 aagcobb

Fine, you're all right and I'm wrong. How could I not see that seminaries are being overwhelmed with applicants, and the vow of celibacy has nothing to do with the sex scandals hitting the Catholic Church all over the world. I'm an idiot.

No... what has to do with the sex scandals is... ready for this... men having sex with little boys. The fact that seminaries are being UNDERWHELMED with applicants is because there are men in the priesthood who are having sex with children.

Let's turn it around.

That's the bottom line. I know swingers and people who are into multiple partners and group sex, and yet they go to work every day and they don't rape other people just because they love sex so much.

The churches way of handling men who have sex with young boys has stunk, but stop trying to find excuses like celibacy and man is fallen and sinful nature shit.

Put the blame where it belongs. Men who are having sex with young men.

394 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:39:15pm

re: #391 BryanS

Hitchens says it best when he derides the catholic church sex abuse policy as "no child's behind left"

That's disgusting and makes me hate myself for wanting to laugh at it....

So in other words MMMMMmm...... that's good satire!

395 lostlakehiker  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:39:49pm

re: #389 publicityStunted

I see it as one person getting sexual pleasure from hurting and degrading someone else. It's a sadistic act, at core.

Maybe that too, but it is reproductive behavior. There are parallels in the animal kingdom. Ducks, orangutans, etc. males force themselves on females and that's one of their ways of bringing forth the next generation. Not pretty, but much of Animal Kingdom isn't.

396 BryanS  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:40:58pm

re: #394 jamesfirecat

That's disgusting and makes me hate myself for wanting to laugh at it...

So in other words MMMmm... that's good satire!

That's hitchens in a nutshell.

397 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:41:03pm

re: #390 jamesfirecat

Ironically, number one was meant mostly in jest and number two which had the joke was more serious.

I'd like to think that making sure there's no time when only one priest is left alone with a young child couldn't make things worse...

No... I think that the church should stop this now. Period. There is no half measures needed, there is no excuses.

398 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:42:29pm

re: #395 lostlakehiker

Maybe that too, but it is reproductive behavior. There are parallels in the animal kingdom. Ducks, orangutans, etc. males force themselves on females and that's one of their ways of bringing forth the next generation. Not pretty, but much of Animal Kingdom isn't.


On the "lighter" note, the things Ducks do are not pretty....

[Link: www.cracked.com...]

[Link: www.cracked.com...]

399 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:43:07pm

re: #397 Walter L. Newton

No... I think that the church should stop this now. Period. There is no half measures needed, there is no excuses.

I think they should stop it also, I'm just trying to figure out what measures can be taken to make sure it never happens again....

400 BryanS  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:44:53pm

re: #399 jamesfirecat

I think they should stop it also, I'm just trying to figure out what measures can be taken to make sure it never happens again...

We could just make sure the catholic church is held to account in civil court. sue the crap out of them--I'm sure that will get the catholic church to fix the problem.

401 aagcobb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:45:42pm

re: #393 Walter L. Newton

No... what has to do with the sex scandals is... ready for this... men having sex with little boys. The fact that seminaries are being UNDERWHELMED with applicants is because there are men in the priesthood who are having sex with children.

Let's turn it around.

That's the bottom line. I know swingers and people who are into multiple partners and group sex, and yet they go to work every day and they don't rape other people just because they love sex so much.

The churches way of handling men who have sex with young boys has stunk, but stop trying to find excuses like celibacy and man is fallen and sinful nature shit.

Put the blame where it belongs. Men who are having sex with young men.

It just seems to me that if the Church allowed priests to marry, then priesthood would be more attractive to people with normal sex drives, which would increase the pool of potential priests, and allow the Church to be more selective in who they allow to become priests. Just to be clear one more time, I don't think the vow of celibacy causes pedophilia.

402 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:46:13pm

re: #386 lostlakehiker

We, meaning most men. There are, of course, obviously exceptions.

right, I didn't make my meaning clear...I think it's true that most men want one woman...but the remainder is a very large number

403 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:46:58pm

re: #391 BryanS

Hitchens says it best when he derides the catholic church sex abuse policy as "no child's behind left"

Clever word play, but does anyone imagine that other than the celibacy part, this is a genetic aspect of Catholics?

Anybody want to take bets on what goes on in all boys madrassas?

404 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:47:11pm

re: #388 Naso Tang

Speaking for yourself, of course..

not once, ever....why would you say such a thing?

405 BryanS  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:50:38pm

re: #403 Naso Tang

Clever word play, but does anyone imagine that other than the celibacy part, this is a genetic aspect of Catholics?

Anybody want to take bets on what goes on in all boys madrassas?

It's not anything genetic--unless we consider the possibility that there is a genetic predisposition among humans to believe things based on faith without any evidence. I would not be surprised to see this happen in other religions too.

406 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:50:59pm

re: #404 albusteve

not once, ever...why would you say such a thing?

Of course I realize you were speaking statistically, and not of anyone in the tails.

407 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:53:40pm

Signing off. Goodnight.

408 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 9:03:12pm

Guys we need to remember that the vast majority of the abuse cases are from the past and no higher then in the regular population.
[Link: www.americancatholic.org...]

None of that excuses what happened, but this is NOT an on going issue. Plus I don't think it was as much a "there are pedophiles in every Parish" as much as it was the fact that of Church leaders in various areas ignoring victims (and treating them like shit), not alerting authorities and moving the abusers around to new Parishes and other parts of the country without letting anyone know that "this guys should NEVER work with kids".

There was way too much mercy shown to the abusers and not nearly enough to the victims.

That is not what is happening now, at least in America....but I will admit that my knowledge is not that deep and some bastards like Cardinal Mahoney may still be stonewalling authorities.

I agree that the issue of celibacy in modern times does contribute to the lower numbers of men entering the Priesthood, but I would argue that means our Seminaries are attracting men who are committed to celibacy, not ones who are in some way damaged or sexually immature.

(we should remember that many men who became Priests in the past did so because it was expected of them by their families when Catholics had much larger families then they do now.)

409 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 9:04:57pm

I leave you with these words of wisdom from The Council of Trent:

If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.

Also knownith as The Don't Rubbith It In Clause.

History of Clerical Continence in the Christian Church.

410 Bagua  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 9:13:16pm

re: #368 marjoriemoon

I don't think so either, but with the priests, at any rate, it's some sort of weird psychology combing rape, pedophilia, homosexuality and I do think celibacy, at least not allowing sex with a woman, has to add to the mix.

It is a perversion of that individuals "love map". Generally, this can be traced to being abused as a child in a similar fashion. Thus, it is largely a learned response which thrives in a culture that protects and perpetuates it.

It is false that it always involves rape, and it is false that this is solely about "power" and other psychobabble. They are pedophiles, they lust after children, it is always sexual in nature.

The celibacy is not likely a major factor as their are plenty of married pedophiles. Rather, it is the access to the preferred victims. It is also likely the pedophiles choose the live of pretend celibicy because it appeals to them for numerous reasons.

1. It is a cultural setting with access to preferred victims.
2. There is a culture of cover-up and enablement.
3. They are not interested in sex with women in many case.

411 What, me worry?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 9:43:38pm

re: #410 Bagua

It is a perversion of that individuals "love map". Generally, this can be traced to being abused as a child in a similar fashion. Thus, it is largely a learned response which thrives in a culture that protects and perpetuates it.

It is false that it always involves rape, and it is false that this is solely about "power" and other psychobabble. They are pedophiles, they lust after children, it is always sexual in nature.

The celibacy is not likely a major factor as their are plenty of married pedophiles. Rather, it is the access to the preferred victims. It is also likely the pedophiles choose the live of pretend celibicy because it appeals to them for numerous reasons.

1. It is a cultural setting with access to preferred victims.
2. There is a culture of cover-up and enablement.
3. They are not interested in sex with women in many case.

Much agreed, except that pedophilia IS rape. Children do not willingly have sex with adults.

412 Bagua  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 9:56:26pm

re: #411 marjoriemoon

Much agreed, except that pedophilia IS rape. Children do not willingly have sex with adults.

No. Many and quite possibly most acts of this type of pedophilia fall short of rape. Examples include pornography, voyeurism, exhibitionism, and lascivious conduct with or without physical contact that does not meet the definition of rape. Actual rape is much less prevalent in the type of pedophilia we are discussing. Though it certainly gets the most press attention. In general, the offenders "love" their victims and try to make their experiences pleasurable or playlike. There is a great deal of grooming which is also perverted form of seduction.

Even cases which involve actual rape generally do not include force or violence.

413 Bagua  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:14:14pm

re: #410 Bagua

It is a perversion of that individuals "love map". Generally, this can be traced to being abused as a child in a similar fashion. Thus, it is largely a learn
[...]

Note that I am speaking about the cases with priests. In the general population the word would be 'often' as the majority of offenders will not have themselves been abused as minors.

414 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:03:24pm

re: #310 Killgore Trout

Semi-OT: Chris Hitchens Lemon Party...
Christopher Hitchens claims to have slept with two Tory ministers.

As long as it wasn't both at the same time, still perfectly cricket.

415 Sacred Plants  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 6:22:59am

After WWII, the Church in Germany had few opportunities to recruit uncompromised candidates for the priesthood. The major resource tapped to work around the scarcity was the absorption of the Romantic youth cultures which had blossomed in the aftermath of the downfall of the Kaiser in WWI. When the Nazis introduced their culture of lockstep, the religious wing of these movements found asylum in the Church. For some of these men, their sexual imagination did not age with them. The post-Kaiser Romanticism had produced an incomplete sexual liberation whose unfinished fantasies the Nazis twisted into a nightmare. In the outside reception this is being reflected in the "pink swastika" revisionism assuming homosexuality as the root cause of Nazism. From within, this particular strain of history has only been disentangled in the sexual revolution of the post-war generation. Most of the abuse, especially those instances close to the Pope´s path of life, dates into the time when persecution on the ground of legacy anti-homosexuality legislation was at its all-expcept-the-Nazi-time high. Hence the ongoing revisionist drumbeat in the Church in Germany, that somehow this very sexual revolution was the root cause of the clerical abuse whose most severe instances in fact predate it, and its climax in the ridiculous assertion that atheism was the root cause of Nazism (although the Pope explicitely said something else).

Sexual abuse is not the only evil that came from that particular boygroup, another is the rape of the soul calling itself exorcism which had been taking place not only in the hidden but in the open as well. And it is not just the civilian clerics which are still poisoned by this ideology of denial, but the epicenter is located in the leadership of military chaplains, casting a murky shadow on the country´s commitments in Afghanistan and the Pirate waters, especially now after the Protestant leadership has just been rebuffed after its public complaints over an rapid decrease in the readiness of relatives to participate in funerals of soldiers.


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