Anti-AGW ‘Expert’ in UK Parliament Inquiry: Another Energy Industry Shill

Environment • Views: 2,428

In the latest example in a long line of dishonest attempts to smear the science of climate change, one of the main critical witnesses in the UK Parliament’s hearings on the CRU email leaks is a shill for the oil and gas industries.

And of course, he didn’t disclose this fact in the submission from the Institute of Physics; it had to be revealed by the Guardian.

Evidence from a respected scientific body to a parliamentary inquiry examining the behaviour of climate-change scientists, was drawn from an energy industry consultant who argues that global warming is a religion, the Guardian can reveal.

The submission, from the Institute of Physics (IOP), suggested that scientists at the University of East Anglia had cherry-picked data to support conclusions and that key reconstructions of past temperature could not be relied upon. …

The Guardian has established that the institute prepared its evidence, which was highly critical of the CRU scientists, after inviting views from Peter Gill, an IOP official who is head of a company in Surrey called Crestport Services.

According to Gill, Crestport offers “consultancy and management support services … particularly within the energy and energy intensive industries worldwide”, and says that it has worked with “oil and gas production companies including Shell, British Gas, and Petroleum Development Oman”.

In an article in the newsletter of the IOP south central branch in April 2008, which attempted to downplay the role carbon dioxide plays in global warming, Gill wrote: “If you don’t ‘believe’ in anthropogenic climate change, you risk at best ridicule, but more likely vitriolic comments or even character assassination. Unfortunately, for many people the subject has become a religion, so facts and analysis have become largely irrelevant.”

Does that “religion” talking point sound familiar? It should; this is the same absurd smear often used by creationists against those who accept the science of evolution. The Institute of Physics has some ‘splaining to do.

UPDATE at 3/6/10 3:20:01 pm:

And the story gets even juicier, because the Institute of Physics has been forced to clarify its submission to the UK Parliament.

In a statement issued today the institute said its written submission to the committee “has been interpreted by some individuals to imply that it does not support the scientific evidence that the rising concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is contributing to global warming.”

It says: “That is not the case. The institute’s position on climate change is clear: the basic science is well enough understood to be sure that our climate is changing, and that we need to take action now to mitigate that change.”

The institute said its critical comments were focused on the scientific process, and “should not be interpreted to mean that the institute believes that the science itself is flawed.”

The statement appears to contradict sections of the original submission, which suggests the emails showed scientists had cherry-picked data to support conclusions and that some key reconstructions of past temperature cannot be relied upon.

And it gets even shadier too:

The Guardian has been unable to find a member of the board that supports the submission. Two of the scientists listed as members said they had declined to comment on a draft submission prepared by the institute, because they were not climate experts and had not read the UEA emails. Others would not comment or did not respond to enquiries.

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532 comments
1 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:55:05pm

No! Shut up! Its not a political job, its a real serious investigation!

2 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:57:14pm

Busted.

3 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:00:25pm

Cue the music...
ready dancers...
let the march of the Concern Trolls begin once again!

4 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:04:31pm

lol I"m feeling a little gloaty today, I'll tone it down >>

5 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:04:47pm

Why should they worry about Global Warming when they feel so cool?

6 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:07:50pm

Ocean acidification fastest in 65 million years.

Think McFly think! How is Frank going to get his lobster when the oceans are all acidified?

7 Kragar  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:22:09pm

OT

Couple nurture their virtual child... and let their real baby daughter starve to death

A computer-addicted couple let their real life baby starve to death while they raised a virtual daughter online, police said today.

The couple spent 12 hours a night at internet cafes while their three-month-old daughter was left home alone at their apartment in Suwon, South Korea. They were arrested today.

8 badger1  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:25:44pm

No doubt it seems like a good idea to attack the people rather than address the argument...I don't think so.

I don't believe that university and government climate scientists are producing their research because of their financial interest in research grants, and the same principle applies to the private sector.

IOP made serious points that should be addressed seriously.

9 zora  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:25:45pm

re: #7 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

i saw this yesterday. made me feel ill.

10 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:30:04pm

re: #8 badger1

So your logic is that 'desire for research grants' (hell, if they wanted that they could push anti-agw research just as well!) has an equal chance of dishonesty as 'being paid by the industries that most hate global warming legislation'?

Interesting argument :P

11 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:30:17pm

re: #3 Jeff In Ohio

Cue the music...
ready dancers...
let the march of the Concern Trolls begin once again!

We have a winner!

re: #8 badger1

12 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:30:34pm

re: #7 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

That kind of story, its hard to accept it as true.

I mean I'm not saying its not, but the mind simply boggles.

13 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:30:36pm

re: #8 badger1

No doubt it seems like a good idea to attack the people rather than address the argument...I don't think so.

I don't believe that university and government climate scientists are producing their research because of their financial interest in research grants, and the same principle applies to the private sector.

IOP made serious points that should be addressed seriously.

Yeah it's funny how people only hand out research grants to people who end up showing off their ability to do something useful with the money like predict what the weather will be like in years to come....

14 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:31:16pm

re: #8 badger1

Seriously?

You think the objectivity of a consultant and lobbyist for the energy industry, and scientists are equal?

When Gill makes statements like this:

In an article in the newsletter of the IOP south central branch in April 2008, which attempted to downplay the role carbon dioxide plays in global warming, Gill wrote: "If you don't 'believe' in anthropogenic climate change, you risk at best ridicule, but more likely vitriolic comments or even character assassination. Unfortunately, for many people the subject has become a religion, so facts and analysis have become largely irrelevant."


...

In November Gill commented, on the Times Higher Education website: "Poor old CRU have been seriously hacked. The emails and other files are all over the internet and include how to hide atmospheric cooling."


...

And please note:

The IOP added that the submission was approved by three members of its science board, but would not reveal their names. The Guardian contacted several members of the board, including its chairman, Denis Weaire, a physicist at Trinity College Dublin. All said that they had little direct role in the submission.

...

Evan Harris, a member of the science and technology select committee, said: "Members of the Institute of Physics … may be concerned that the IOP is not as transparent as those it wishes to criticise."

15 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:31:23pm

heh, on a different note, I think its finally happened. People are afraid to even look at AGW threads now >

16 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:31:38pm

BBL

17 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:32:28pm

re: #8 badger1

No doubt it seems like a good idea to attack the people rather than address the argument...I don't think so.

I don't believe that university and government climate scientists are producing their research because of their financial interest in research grants, and the same principle applies to the private sector.

IOP made serious points that should be addressed seriously.

Maybe you should actually read the article before trying to make excuses.

The IOP has already walked back the accusations made by Peter Gill: Institute of Physics forced to clarify submission to climate emails inquiry:

In a statement issued today the institute said its written submission to the committee "has been interpreted by some individuals to imply that it does not support the scientific evidence that the rising concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is contributing to global warming."

It says: "That is not the case. The institute's position on climate change is clear: the basic science is well enough understood to be sure that our climate is changing, and that we need to take action now to mitigate that change."

The institute said its critical comments were focused on the scientific process, and "should not be interpreted to mean that the institute believes that the science itself is flawed."

18 Jaerik  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:34:08pm

My dad attempted to explain to me the other day that oil industry shills/consultants should be trusted more than scientists on the climate change issue, because rich businessmen were inherently more trustworthy, on the basis of character, than scientists that don't work for profit. He then cited Ayn Rand as his source.

19 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:34:26pm

re: #17 Charles

The institute said its critical comments were focused on the scientific process, and "should not be interpreted to mean that the institute believes that the science itself is flawed."

This is shockingly close to the good ol' 'teach the controversy' we get from the creationism crowd.

20 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:35:04pm

re: #18 Jaerik

That's a conversation I'd gnaw my own leg off of to get away from :p

21 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:35:39pm

re: #7 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

OT

Couple nurture their virtual child... and let their real baby daughter starve to death

A local woman was arrested for dumping her newborn in a garbage bin down in Redondo Beach. She's being charged with murder.

I debated sharing that one. I really, really, really hate these stories.

22 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:37:04pm

re: #18 Jaerik

He then cited Ayn Rand as his source.

Way too many people forget that she was writing fiction.

23 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:37:45pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

and was a fascist lunatic :p

24 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:38:10pm
25 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:38:54pm

re: #18 Jaerik

My dad attempted to explain to me the other day that oil industry shills/consultants should be trusted more than scientists on the climate change issue, because rich businessmen were inherently more trustworthy, on the basis of character, than scientists that don't work for profit. He then cited Ayn Rand as his source.

Well if Global Warming ever seems to be a problem I'm sure we can all just moves to cities under the ocean.

26 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:39:30pm

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

doesn't it tire you trotting out the same points, having them be shot down, ignoring it, and then trotting them out again? I'd be exhausted.

27 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:39:35pm

re: #17 Charles

And I read about this the other day, it is a problem to have that kind of conflict of interest on the IOP memo to the UK Parliament.

28 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:39:45pm

re: #25 jamesfirecat

Its always the Bioshock with you :P

29 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:39:52pm

re: #26 windsagio

doesn't it tire you trotting out the same points, having them be shot down, ignoring it, and then trotting them out again? I'd be exhausted.

Then stop playing.

30 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:40:26pm

re: #23 windsagio

and was a fascist lunatic :p

Why do you call Ayn Rand fascist?

There are many things wrong with her philosophy, but putting too much power in the hands of the government isn't one of them....

31 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:40:34pm

re: #29 Walter L. Newton

Its not a game really.

Anyways, you're the one doing the exhausting work.

32 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:40:44pm

OT (sorry ,, I know it's early,,, but there doesn't seem to be much activity here)

Iran's Ahmadinejad calls Sept 11 "big fabrication"
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

Well ,,, that certainly settles it!

33 KingKenrod  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:41:12pm

Gill's comments were in reference to a presentation by Dr. Zbigniew Jaworowski, a glaciologist who claims the Earth is cooling, not warming. He's had articles published in Lyndon LaRouche's 21st Century Science and Technology magazine.

34 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:41:18pm

re: #18 Jaerik

My dad attempted to explain to me the other day that oil industry shills/consultants should be trusted more than scientists on the climate change issue, because rich businessmen were inherently more trustworthy, on the basis of character, than scientists that don't work for profit. He then cited Ayn Rand as his source.

Sometimes the businessman really is being raped by the politicians and their retained experts. But not always. It's best to have disinterested experts in such cases.

35 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:41:28pm

re: #28 windsagio

Its always the Bioshock with you :P

Only when Ayn Rand comes up.

Because its a lot easier to play that game than to tunnel my way through any of her books....

36 zora  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:41:51pm

re: #21 goddamnedfrank

i thougt it would be a teenager, not a 24 year old woman. the place where she threw her baby in the trash was not far from a fire dept where she could have surrendered the baby without penalty. that is if the child was still alive. sad indeed.

37 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:42:05pm

re: #30 jamesfirecat

I wasn't thinking! You are of course right. She was more of a Anarcho-capitalist.

38 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:42:23pm

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

And really boys, down dinging the facts available behind those links are not going to change anything.

The more and more I read over the 55 different memos submitted to the UK Parliament for the 03-01-2010 hearing with Dr. Phil Jones and others, the more and more I have to concede Charles' point, it is about public relations and politics.

39 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:42:59pm

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

In one case you have funding being provided to scientific organizations, in order to do scientific research. (And I guarantee you that no individual scientist is getting rich.)

In the other case you have energy industries providing millions of dollars for no purpose except to subvert the scientific research, because they have a vested interest in keeping people ignorant and ill-informed about this subject.

One of these things is not like the other.

40 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:43:04pm

re: #31 windsagio

Its not a game really.

Anyways, you're the one doing the exhausting work.

I'm not exhausted in the least. But thanks for your concern.

41 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:43:12pm

re: #18 Jaerik

My dad attempted to explain to me the other day that oil industry shills/consultants should be trusted more than scientists on the climate change issue, because rich businessmen were inherently more trustworthy, on the basis of character, than scientists that don't work for profit. He then cited Ayn Rand as his source.

I'm sorry, hasn't that woman done enough damage?

42 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:43:13pm

re: #36 zora

This kind of thing happens once a year or so (it seems like, I have no stats, but I've heard of it several times htis decade) in various places. Kinda scary.

I suppose they think its better than aborting?

43 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:43:15pm

re: #31 windsagio

Its not a game really.

Anyways, you're the one doing the exhausting work.

How can you complain about exhaustive work when you're not the one doing it? Apparanlty, Walter's not tired from it at all!

44 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:43:59pm

re: #43 sattv4u2

its called empathy :p

Foreign concept to you I know!

(ZING!)

45 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:44:19pm

re: #37 windsagio

I wasn't thinking! You are of course right. She was more of a Anarcho-capitalist.

"I am Andrew Ryan, and I'm here to ask you a question...

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?
'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.'
'No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.'
'No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.'

I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...Rapture, a city where the artist would not fear the censor, where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city, as well."

46 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:46:31pm

re: #38 Walter L. Newton

Well let me put it to you simply, and then I'll go on to other conversations so the thread doesn't degrade any further.

You have simply shown yourself utterly incapable of giving any useful information on the subject, or at least of presenting it accurately.

People get annoyed at seeing the same 'concerns' posted over and over again, and argue, but its really the same misrepresented crap as always.

You really can't complain about the bad reactions you get, you only bring them upon yourself.

>> Now on to more uplifting subjects!

47 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:46:41pm

re: #39 Charles

In one case you have funding being provided to scientific organizations, in order to do scientific research. (And I guarantee you that no individual scientist is getting rich.)

In the other case you have energy industries providing millions of dollars for no purpose except to subvert the scientific research, because they have a vested interest in keeping people ignorant and ill-informed about this subject.

One of these things is not like the other.

Follow the money. Dr Rajendra Pachauri's has certainly personally benefitted from funding. The BBC pension fund has certainly benefited from supporting the science. Those are facts.

Just because you can find "poor" scientist doesn't mean all scientist are poor.

48 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:47:29pm

re: #10 windsagio

re: #13 jamesfirecat

Maybe I'm reading badger1's post wrong,

I don't believe that university and government climate scientists are producing their research because of their financial interest in research grants, and the same principle applies to the private sector. [emphasis mine]

but it reads to me as though he's saying he doesn't believe researchers are swayed by grant money.

49 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:47:53pm

re: #46 windsagio

Well let me put it to you simply, and then I'll go on to other conversations so the thread doesn't degrade any further.

You have simply shown yourself utterly incapable of giving any useful information on the subject, or at least of presenting it accurately.

People get annoyed at seeing the same 'concerns' posted over and over again, and argue, but its really the same misrepresented crap as always.

You really can't complain about the bad reactions you get, you only bring them upon yourself.

>> Now on to more uplifting subjects!

I don't complain about any reactions I get. Show me where I complain? I go back and forth, just like everyone else does here, but you don't find me complaining.

50 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:49:48pm

re: #48 SixDegrees

re: #13 jamesfirecat

Maybe I'm reading badger1's post wrong,

but it reads to me as though he's saying he doesn't believe researchers are swayed by grant money.

I choose to read that "I don't believe" as sarcastic. If he cares to correct me I am listening...

51 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:50:00pm

re: #48 SixDegrees

really its the reverse of the normal tactic.

Instead of saying 'the scientists are just as corrupt as the corporate hacks!' He's saying 'the corporate hacks aren't corrupt and I don't think the scientists are either!'


The truth of the matter is, people funded by industry (whether its tobacco or oil/coal/whatever) are fare more likely to corrupt the science than academic researchers. He's implying equivalence where there simply is none.

52 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:51:03pm

re: #26 windsagio

doesn't it tire you trotting out the same points, having them be shot down, ignoring it, and then trotting them out again? I'd be exhausted.

I don't think I've seen these particular points before.

53 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:51:20pm

And Charles, what do you mean by this comment...

And of course, he didn’t disclose this fact in his testimony; it had to be revealed by the Guardian.

What testimony?

54 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:51:23pm

re: #45 jamesfirecat

Image: File:John_Zerzan_SF_-_Anarchist_Bookfair_%2706.JPG

There are no Andrew Ryan's in that crowd :p

55 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:51:59pm

re: #52 SixDegrees

Oh Lord, I have. At least 4-5 times each.

56 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:52:29pm

re: #55 windsagio

(or the ones I remember reading in the post, I'm not willing to look up and see if they're ALL old recycles)

57 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:52:39pm

re: #47 Walter L. Newton

Follow the money. Dr Rajendra Pachauri's has certainly personally benefitted from funding. The BBC pension fund has certainly benefited from supporting the science. Those are facts.

Just because you can find "poor" scientist doesn't mean all scientist are poor.

And yet, for some reason you don't seem at all interested in "following the money" when it comes to the energy industries. Yeah, let's go after those tricksy scientists! They're the ones who are obviously profiting.

58 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:52:55pm

Meanwhile we now have this to compound the real science as well

[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]

59 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:53:55pm

re: #58 Thanos

Well, that's just depressing :(

60 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:55:25pm

I'm gonna try real hard to evolve faster to keep up.

61 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:55:37pm

re: #57 Charles

And yet, for some reason you don't seem at all interested in "following the money" when it comes to the energy industries. Yeah, let's go after those tricksy scientists! They're the ones who are obviously profiting.

I worked for the National Renewable Energy Lab for 13 years. They are a contractor for the DOE. The contracting firm is Midwest Research out of Kansas City. Midwest Research is a Bechtel company.

So... big bad oil is running the countries premier renewable energy research laboratory.

I see how this works.

62 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:56:05pm

re: #60 Racer X

Lots of plane flights and trips to the top of mountians.

Cosmic rays always worked in the comic books!

63 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:56:07pm

re: #58 Thanos

Meanwhile we now have this to compound the real science as well

[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]

The possibility of a major release of methane from melting clathrate stores is really, really scary. If this happens, the results would be absolutely catastrophic -- and not in a hundred years, but virtually right away.

And there are signs that it's beginning already.

64 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:56:26pm

re: #51 windsagio

really its the reverse of the normal tactic.

Instead of saying 'the scientists are just as corrupt as the corporate hacks!' He's saying 'the corporate hacks aren't corrupt and I don't think the scientists are either!'

The truth of the matter is, people funded by industry (whether its tobacco or oil/coal/whatever) are fare more likely to corrupt the science than academic researchers. He's implying equivalence where there simply is none.

Really? I hadn't ever heard that before. A huge amount of published scientific work is generated through the private sector; most scientists, when taking a job with a private corporation, insist on freedom to publish, and there are typically clauses in their contracts granting this and spelling out the exact limits of proprietary interest that might conflict with it.

But if there have been studies showing that those published, peer-reviewed studies funded by corporations are more likely to be flawed in some way, I'd be fascinated to see them.

Anyway, I didn't read the post that way; it sounded to me as though he was granting that scientific work isn't tainted by grants. If the OP could clarify, that might be helpful.

65 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:58:58pm

re: #64 SixDegrees

Well we're not necessarily talking normal studies, or normal corporate research.

The best examples I can think of (to isolate from the current subject) are the good ol' cigarette company studies, and the sugar industry studies that were used to torpedo cyclamates.

It would be silly to say that all corporate research is tainted, but it would be demonstrably wrong that industries misuse 'science' and taint some research to meet their own ends.

66 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:59:04pm

Anyone who's tempted to buy the idea that the energy industry is completely blameless, please read:

Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming.

Documented evidence of a determined effort by the energy industries to confuse the public about the science of global warming.

67 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:59:26pm

re: #63 Charles

The possibility of a major release of methane from melting clathrate stores is really, really scary. If this happens, the results would be absolutely catastrophic -- and not in a hundred years, but virtually right away.

And there are signs that it's beginning already.

Well, that's a relief. It means we can stop worrying and move on to something else, given that catastrophe is already upon us and is unstoppable. /

68 recusancy  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:00:03pm
69 freetoken  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:00:22pm

re: #58 Thanos

That is one reason to believe that the changes brought about by humans indeed will have a very long run.

As with what we have done with such a large part of the biosphere, where extinction is permanent, and the rapid introduction of non-native species is changing landscapes, human changes are a one-way process.

We don't get a do-over.

One thing that continually frustrates me is how so many of the self-declared "conservatives" so flippantly approach environmental issues. They (feign?) concern over the "economy", yet fail to realize our ecology is the original economy.

70 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:00:51pm

re: #66 Charles

Anyone who's tempted to buy the idea that the energy industry is completely blameless, please read:

Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming.

Documented evidence of a determined effort by the energy industries to confuse the public about the science of global warming.

Here's some more of that money...

Midwest Research Institute (MRI), Battelle, and Bechtel announced today that they will team in the upcoming competition to operate the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) in Golden, Colorado.

NREL, which MRI has managed and operated for the U.S. Department of Energy since 1977, is the nation's leading laboratory for renewable energy research. The lab's work involves developing technologies that provide reliable energy from sun, wind, plants, and other renewable sources.

71 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:02:08pm

OT: and dunno if this has made the rounds yet,

but:

Utterly gross food product in a plastic bottle.

72 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:02:39pm

re: #65 windsagio

Well we're not necessarily talking normal studies, or normal corporate research.

The best examples I can think of (to isolate from the current subject) are the good ol' cigarette company studies, and the sugar industry studies that were used to torpedo cyclamates.

It would be silly to say that all corporate research is tainted, but it would be demonstrably wrong that industries misuse 'science' and taint some research to meet their own ends.

Fair enough. When I see "researchers," though, I tend to think "peer reviewed publication." I work for a large corporation that employs piles of physicists and engineers, and they produce, in turn, piles of peer-reviewed publications. There are cases where such publication is blocked by the company due to patent or proprietary concerns, but those are surprisingly rare.

In any case, I'm giving this poster the benefit of the doubt pending further clarification.

73 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:02:47pm

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

Bechtel is a contstruction and consulting firm Walter, not an oil company. Yes, they do a lot of business with Oil, but if someone were building a lot of Nuclear reactors, or Coal reactors it's likely they would be involved as well. Like Haliburton, they do the big construction contracting jobs. I think they are pretty agnostic on this as companies go.

74 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:03:00pm

re: #70 Walter L. Newton

That's wonderful. Good for them.

What does that have to with the fact that the energy industries also fund dozens of anti-AGW groups? You can't erase that simply by saying, "Look! They're funding renewable energy research!"

75 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:03:19pm

re: #72 SixDegrees

fair enough :p

76 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:04:09pm

All corporate research is not tainted. And, of course, I've never said anything like that.

But denying that the energy industries spend millions of dollars on anti-AGW propaganda is simply disingenuous.

77 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:04:27pm

re: #71 windsagio

OT: and dunno if this has made the rounds yet,

but:

Utterly gross food product in a plastic bottle.

Beyond ugh.

It's like the Better Off Ted episode where the scientists invent synthetic meat. When asked, after swallowing a mouthful, how it tastes, Ted replies, "It taste like pure despair."

78 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:04:42pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Way too many people forget that she was writing fiction.

Same people who read all the "Left Behind" series of children's books?/

79 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:04:50pm

re: #74 Charles

Also, they see the writing on the wall. It's totally reasonable that the oil companies would stall agw stuff as long as possible in order to maximise profits, but also work on the next fuel source, so that they'll still have a business. Even without AGW they know the oil will run out (or more likely become pohibitively expensive) eventually.

80 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:05:47pm

re: #44 windsagio

its called empathy :p

Foreign concept to you I know!

(ZING!)

DEFLECT ,, DEFLECT!!

LOOK,,,shiney things!!

81 Syrius  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:06:30pm

Religion of Science? When's the last time a member of any religious congregation was able to say to the religious authority, the powers that be so to speak, "I question your authority, I have proof to undermine your authority and I am here to lead the congregation from this point forward"...?
I find it humorous when the religious types try to label the scientific community- with what they only know to be true- the religious types are followers and can never be leaders in their community. I feel no sympathy for them. Praise the Scientific Experts for they will lead us out of the Dark Ages!

82 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:07:49pm

I have a friend who spent 20 years working for Texaco. He says they were very interested in alternative energy - just like you and me. They see money to be made for sure - in oil and gas and alternative.

83 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:08:54pm

re: #82 Racer X

the problem is they also intend to get the most out of oil while they still can :p

84 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:09:58pm

re: #79 windsagio

(or more likely become pohibitively expensive)
yeah ,, about that ,, now that a barrel is over $80 bucks ,, wheres all the outrage like we heard back a few years ago that Bush/ Cheney were protecting their Erl Bidness buddies when it hit $65 a barrel

85 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:10:30pm

re: #83 windsagio

the problem is they also intend to get the most out of oil while they still can :p

What should they do?

86 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:11:04pm

re: #74 Charles

That's wonderful. Good for them.

What does that have to with the fact that the energy industries also fund dozens of anti-AGW groups? You can't erase that simply by saying, "Look! They're funding renewable energy research!"

Nothing. But we are not talking about anti-AGW groups.

We were talking about scientific societies (the IOP). Your blog entry above is about the IOP and the questions they submitted in a memo to Parliament before the 03-01-2010 hearing. And so, they have a member of the IOP, who had something to do with the formation of some questions, and he has something to do with the energy industry.

When we look at other scientific organizations (such are the National Renewable Energy Lab) and find "scary big oil" involved with running the lab, do we suspect everything coming out of the research there?

No.

No more that everything on the IOP is necessarily tainted by Peter Gill.

Has anyone read the memo from the IOP to Parliament?

Here.

[Link: www.publications.parliament.uk...]

87 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:11:52pm

re: #81 Syrius

Religion of Science? When's the last time a member of any religious congregation was able to say to the religious authority, the powers that be so to speak, "I question your authority, I have proof to undermine your authority and I am here to lead the congregation from this point forward"...?
I find it humorous when the religious types try to label the scientific community- with what they only know to be true- the religious types are followers and can never be leaders in their community. I feel no sympathy for them. Praise the Scientific Experts for they will lead us out of the Dark Ages!

Frankly, the Baptists do that sort of thing all the time. And the whole Protestant Reformation was a similar exercise.

88 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:11:57pm

re: #84 sattv4u2

Try like $200 a barrel. We're already nearing (or at) peak production. Things don't get really bad till after that.

89 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:12:59pm

re: #85 Racer X

They should be good corporate citizens, and not purposely confuse and mislead the people for their own profits :p

yeah fat chance I know, but you're the one who asked!

90 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:13:14pm

re: #88 windsagio

Try like $200 a barrel. We're already nearing (or at) peak production. Things don't get really bad till after that.

Thats really nice, but didn't answer the question I asked!

91 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:14:40pm

re: #88 windsagio

Try like $200 a barrel. We're already nearing (or at) peak production. Things don't get really bad till after that.

The people I know in petrochemicals say at. or possibly past.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

an interesting read, it explains about Hubbert peak theory.

92 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:14:52pm

re: #86 Walter L. Newton

Nothing. But we are not talking about anti-AGW groups.

Yes, we are. That's the entire point of this post.

Has anyone read the memo from the IOP to Parliament?

Here.

[Link: www.publications.parliament.uk...]

The IOP has already been forced to recant their submission. Guess you missed that part.

93 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:15:09pm

re: #90 sattv4u2

I kinda missed the question :p

The answer is "what the heck?" There's constant outrage these days versus the oil industry these days.

The difference from what you're referring to is nobody is accusing Obama of being in their pocket, as was said about Bush/Cheney.

... and it will get worse and prices go up.

94 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:16:09pm

re: #91 Uninformed Opinion

awesome! Also, great ironic name for the content of your post :D

(well being at peak isn't awesome at all, but the info is)

95 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:17:05pm

And note this little tidbit of information about the IOP report: Institute of Physics forced to clarify submission to climate emails inquiry.

The Guardian has been unable to find a member of the board that supports the submission. Two of the scientists listed as members said they had declined to comment on a draft submission prepared by the institute, because they were not climate experts and had not read the UEA emails. Others would not comment or did not respond to enquiries.

Oops.

96 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:17:47pm

re: #94 windsagio

awesome! Also, great ironic name for the content of your post :D

(well being at peak isn't awesome at all, but the info is)

As i said in an earlier thread, i live in an oil/gas state, you pick stuff up over time...

97 recusancy  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:18:10pm

re: #94 windsagio

awesome! Also, great ironic name for the content of your post :D

(well being at peak isn't awesome at all, but the info is)

Also a good source for info: [Link: www.theoildrum.com...]

98 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:18:56pm

Splitting hairs while the Mother Ship is going down.

99 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:19:32pm

re: #93 windsagio

I kinda missed the question :p

The answer is "what the heck?" There's constant outrage these days versus the oil industry these days.

The difference from what you're referring to is nobody is accusing Obama of being in their pocket, as was said about Bush/Cheney.

... and it will get worse and prices go up.


I see ,, so at $65 a barrel ,, the companies and sheiks had the US President 'in their pocket", but at $81 a barrel, not so much

100 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:19:35pm

News note: islamic nations privately tell Israel they'd back a military strike against iran's nuke program:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Too bad these feckless countries are too useless to step up and say publicly what they appear to be saying privately. because if they had the courage of a Sadat and stepped up, the need for military action might be avoided. Of course, they'd suffer the same fate as Sadat if they did. And that shows the utter evil that has been implanted in the souls of their citizens.

101 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:20:11pm

re: #92 Charles

The IOP has already been forced to recant their submission. Guess you missed that part.

No I didn't. Of course they recanted their submission, because there was evidently a conflict of interest in having any of Gill's input on that memo. But that doesn't make the IOP and AGW denier group. Any more than the National Renewable Energy Lab is a shill of big energy because they are run by Bechtel.

102 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:21:13pm

re: #69 freetoken

That is one reason to believe that the changes brought about by humans indeed will have a very long run.

As with what we have done with such a large part of the biosphere, where extinction is permanent, and the rapid introduction of non-native species is changing landscapes, human changes are a one-way process.

We don't get a do-over.

One thing that continually frustrates me is how so many of the self-declared "conservatives" so flippantly approach environmental issues. They (feign?) concern over the "economy", yet fail to realize our ecology is the original economy.

With regard to the religious right, I'm sure a lot of them believe God would never let that methane escape. He's got it covered. Told us so in the Bible.

103 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:21:21pm

re: #100 _RememberTonyC

News note: islamic nations privately tell Israel they'd back a military strike against iran's nuke program:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Too bad these feckless countries are too useless to step up and say publicly what they appear to be saying privately. because if they had the courage of a Sadat and stepped up, the need for military action might be avoided. Of course, they'd suffer the same fate as Sadat if they did. And that shows the utter evil that has been implanted in the souls of their citizens.

They are more than happy to let Israel do the dirty work. Then later they can scream insults and proclaim how evil the joos are.

104 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:21:57pm

re: #95 Charles

And note this little tidbit of information about the IOP report: Institute of Physics forced to clarify submission to climate emails inquiry.

Oops.

And what and when was the testimony of Peter Gill as mentioned in your thread entry?

105 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:22:13pm

re: #99 sattv4u2

Do you really want to argue about Bush?

I thought you guys hated that :p

Here's a hint tho; the thing you're talking about had nothing to do with the price of oil, but rather were related to other factors.

106 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:23:20pm

re: #102 Jimmah

Oh he'd let it happen, just we're safe anyways. Global warming must be part of the big plan, that's all.

He did promise he'd never wipe humanity out again tho', so that's something :p

107 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:24:14pm

re: #79 windsagio

Honestly, I don't say this in defense of anything or anyone, but while I can conceive that there is a mindset that favors, say, coal/oil industries, I find it hard to understand why they (their management, as opposed to politicians) would bother to have a deliberate policy of anti AGW propaganda for the simple reason that their profitability can only increase under any conceivable scenario in the future of the next couple of generations; and that includes regulations that will make their products more, not less, expensive.

If anyone claims they think that far ahead they should smoke some more fairy dust.

108 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:25:42pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

But that doesn't make the IOP and AGW denier group.

Please point out where I said the IOP is an AGW denier group.

Guess what? I didn't.

However, there's very little doubt that their submission to Parliament was hijacked by someone with a dishonest agenda.

More here: The IOP fiasco.

109 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:26:30pm

re: #107 Naso Tang

Honestly, I don't say this in defense of anything or anyone, but while I can conceive that there is a mindset that favors, say, coal/oil industries, I find it hard to understand why they (their management, as opposed to politicians) would bother to have a deliberate policy of anti AGW propaganda for the simple reason that their profitability can only increase under any conceivable scenario in the future of the next couple of generations; and that includes regulations that will make their products more, not less, expensive.

If anyone claims they think that far ahead they should smoke some more fairy dust.

That seems a bit of an exaggeration. Considering that energy companies have had the habit of buying patents and suppressing technology for 50 years...

110 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:26:47pm

re: #107 Naso Tang

Pretty straightforward, imo. If we reduce usage now (which most AGW activists say is necessary) they'll still certainly make a profit, but they'll make less of a profit than they would otherwise. It's the opposite of looking far ahead, most corporations seem to want to make the most profit year-to-year, with very little longterm planning (as an example, see the truck/SUV craze of the early '00s and how badly that hurt GM and Chrysler)

111 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:27:32pm

Walter, why are you trying to pretend that Bechtel == "Big Energy" It's as disingenuous as the lefties saying "Haliburton == Big Energy" when attacking Cheney.

It's a bigass construction and contracting company, and they are as happy to build windmills as they are Oil pipelines, they are as happy to build bridges, buildings, and cranes as they are Oil platforms.

112 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:27:43pm
Climate change human link evidence 'stronger'

The study, which looks at research published since the IPCC's report, has found that changes in Arctic sea ice, atmospheric moisture, saltiness of parts of the Atlantic Ocean and temperature changes in the Antarctic are consistent with human influence on our climate.

"What this study shows is that the evidence has strengthened for human influence on climate and we know that because we've looked at evidence across the climate system and what this shows very clearly is a consistent picture of a warming world," said Dr Stott.

The study brings together other research from a range of disciplines.

"We hadn't [until now] looked in detail at how the climate system was changing," says Dr Stott.

"[Our paper looks at] not just the temperatures but also the reducing Arctic sea ice and it includes changing rainfall patterns and it includes the fact that the atmosphere is getting more humid.

"And all these different aspects of the climate system are adding up to a picture of the effects of a human influence on our climate."

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

113 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:27:55pm

re: #105 windsagio

Do you really want to argue about Bush?

I thought you guys hated that :p

Here's a hint tho; the thing you're talking about had nothing to do with the price of oil, but rather were related to other factors.

here's another hint

As my original post stated, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when the price of a barrel hit {GASP} $65 (at the height of the Iraq war when their oil fields were by and large shut down)

Now that it's at $81 a barrel ,,,,, {crickets}

114 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:28:18pm

re: #108 Charles

Please point out where I said the IOP is an AGW denier group.

Guess what? I didn't.

However, there's very little doubt that their submission to Parliament was hijacked by someone with a dishonest agenda.

More here: The IOP fiasco.

The why this statement... "...energy industries also fund dozens of anti-AGW groups?"

We were talking about funding, where it comes from, the IOP, Gill, the statement above seems to be a natural progression to implying that the IOP is a AGW denying group.

115 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:29:13pm

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

The why this statement... "...energy industries also fund dozens of anti-AGW groups?"

Do you deny this?

116 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:29:32pm

(Sound of folding chairs in the distance)

117 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:29:39pm

re: #102 Jimmah

With regard to the religious right, I'm sure a lot of them believe God would never let that methane escape. He's got it covered. Told us so in the Bible.

Bull. They can barely wait for the Apocalypse. That's in the Bible as well.

118 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:29:40pm

re: #106 windsagio

Oh he'd let it happen, just we're safe anyways. Global warming must be part of the big plan, that's all.

He did promise he'd never wipe humanity out again tho', so that's something :p

I was taught, in my catholic school, that God had merely promised not to wipe humanity out again by drowning. Apparently he still has options on fire, pestilence etc.

119 recusancy  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:29:44pm

re: #113 sattv4u2

here's another hint

As my original post stated, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when the price of a barrel hit {GASP} $65 (at the height of the Iraq war when their oil fields were by and large shut down)

Now that it's at $81 a barrel ,,, {crickets}

All those people that were gnashing their teeth are now at Tea Party rallies. They can only be outraged about so many things at a time.

120 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:30:20pm

re: #113 sattv4u2

I still don't get how you can say that people aren't complaining about the oil companies. A good part of this thread is just that.

Also, the prices most people see are down (from those brutal earlier highs), because the companies in question realized that the profiteering wasn't worth the bad PR and loss of influence.

So, in essence, its because people remember paying 4 bucks a gallon, and now they're paying 2.80, so it seems to them like fuel is cheaper.

121 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:30:41pm

Friday Night Blue Collar Brew Review – Sierra Nevada Unfiltered Wheat Beer

The first sip was very pleasant to the taste. A hint of citrus sweetness flavor filled the mouth and the sip went down with a sigh instead of a bark. My first impression was that this would make an excellent lawnmower beer. The flavors are there, tantalizing the taste buds nicely, but the overall flavor is neither robust nor hearty. This beer could have been made by Welch’s or Dole. It’s beer juice.

[snip]

This beer is an excellent thirst quencher and light bodied conversation filler. With its sweet sips and tangy fruitiness it’ll draw many comments from those you serve it to. Just keep ‘em coming because this beer goes down nice and easy. It’s a tasty treat from top to bottom.

122 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:30:50pm

re: #118 Jimmah

I was taught, in my catholic school, that God had merely promised not to wipe humanity out again by drowning. Apparently he still has options on fire, pestilence etc.

I've always favored either the drama of a comet or an asteroid, or the simple, clean efficiency of a gamma ray burst from a star going supernova.

123 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:31:03pm

re: #118 Jimmah

lol I never heard that >>

I guess its good for them to be able to hold annihilation over our heads tho :)

124 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:31:28pm

re: #117 ryannon

Bull. They can barely wait for the Apocalypse. That's in the Bible as well.

every time they get riled up... The Rapture is coming! Repent!

I heard a ton of people referencing BO as the antichrist in the last 2 years.

125 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:31:37pm

re: #119 recusancy

All those people that were gnashing their teeth are now at Tea Party rallies. They can only be outraged about so many things at a time.

The Tea Partiers are lefties, because thats who was screaming about Bush/Cheney being in the pocket of their Oil Bidness/ Arab Sheik buddies back in the mid 90's!!?!?!

126 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:31:53pm

re: #122 Guanxi88

I like our star going nova, and charring the planet to ash. Now that's dramatic!

127 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:32:02pm

re: #118 Jimmah

I was taught, in my catholic school, that God had merely promised not to wipe humanity out again by drowning. Apparently he still has options on fire, pestilence etc.

Thats why I never go near a burning bush ,,,,,, oh ,, wait !!

128 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:32:18pm

re: #111 Thanos

Walter, why are you trying to pretend that Bechtel == "Big Energy" It's as disingenuous as the lefties saying "Haliburton == Big Energy" when attacking Cheney.

It's a bigass construction and contracting company, and they are as happy to build windmills as they are Oil pipelines, they are as happy to build bridges, buildings, and cranes as they are Oil platforms.

Because it's as good as a connection as some of the other guilt by association memes that are floating around out there.

For more than 30 years, Bechtel has been a worldwide leader in chemical, petrochemical, and LNG plant construction. In today’s highly competitive market, the company’s experience with a broad range of technologies and optimized plant designs sets it apart.

Bechtel-built facilities encompass virtually every process technology available. This expertise—coupled with our own proprietary technologies and strategic alliances with process licensors and vendors—makes Bechtel uniquely qualified to deliver optimum performance and low installed costs on both new construction and upgrades.

It looks to me that Bechtel has a lot in stake in seeing the oil and gas industry continue to prosper.

Tell me they don't?

129 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:32:40pm

re: #126 windsagio

I like our star going nova, and charring the planet to ash. Now that's dramatic!

yeah, but by that point, there'd likely be nobody here.

Maybe a MONDO flare would satisfy both our preferences.

130 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:33:10pm

re: #115 Charles

Do you deny this?

Of course not. Buy I still want to know the connection with AGW denying groups and the IOP.

131 freetoken  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:33:33pm

re: #107 Naso Tang

There appears to be a very wide assortment of opinions within the fossil fuel industry on how to approach AGW.

Some are accepting it, and trying to figure out how to profit from it. Others seem to be in total denial (e.g., the "CO2 is good for you" crowd.)

My suspicion is that fears over regulation are generalized, and not specific to CO2 emissions per se. There are many reasons for fossil fuel companies to become nervous once people start looking at the details of the industry. Most of us consumers gladly go blindly along just buying the end product - distilled liquids or electricity, without understanding all that goes into the process of creating those products.

The energy industry is the one of the largest industries in the world, and by cash flow may be the largest. Private energy companies are a minority share in this world, with national and local governments being dominant. Perhaps the private companies fear being overtaken by governments. Certainly oil companies are very susceptible to this.

Anyway, companies like Western Fuels are major AGW-science-denier funders. They will do in the short term whatever they see benefits them, even if in the long term many others suffer.

132 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:33:45pm

re: #129 Guanxi88

Larry Niven had a short story about that, Inconstant moon.

Fun reading!

133 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:33:49pm

re: #120 windsagio

I still don't get how you can say that people aren't complaining about the oil companies

A) ,, the "oil companies" don't set the price per barrel
B) people ARE complaining about them. Again, my point was the people complaining about Bush BECAUSE of the price per barrel. Yet today, with that price 20-25% higher ,,, notta peep about the president

134 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:34:19pm

re: #128 Walter L. Newton

They are also the leader in construction in many other areas as well Walter, they are not the oil company, they are not the coal company, they are not the gas company. They are the big ass construction company that does bigass contracting jobs. They build harbors and hotels too.

135 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:34:29pm

Any "energy" company that isn't looking to the future is doomed to failure, same as any other company that fails to keep an eye peeled, and dollars invested to research, the next way to maintain profitability.

And ya know, just about every last one of them IS looking past the petroleum age.

136 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:34:41pm

re: #124 Uninformed Opinion

every time they get riled up... The Rapture is coming! Repent!

I heard a ton of people referencing BO as the antichrist in the last 2 years.

Especially if you play his speech backwards.

Obama - Yes We Can = Thank You Satan

LMAO!

137 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:35:26pm

re: #133 sattv4u2

I'll put it simply.

People didn't complain about the price per barrel, but about the price per gallon.

At least when talking about general outrage.

Is this some bizarre attempt to make some attack on the President? because if it is, you've just gotta get out more.

138 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:35:43pm

Here's an article at the Belfast Telegraph that is absolutely pure AGW denial. Every single dishonest talking point is in here: Sammy’s right, man is not responsible for global warming.

The author of the article: Terry Jackson BSc Msc MPhil (founder of the Energy Group, Institute of Physics, London).

139 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:35:49pm

re: #136 Racer X

Especially if you play his speech backwards.

Obama - Yes We Can = Thank You Satan


[Video]LMAO!

I loves me some reverse speech!

140 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:36:08pm

re: #124 Uninformed Opinion

every time they get riled up... The Rapture is coming! Repent!

I heard a ton of people referencing BO as the antichrist in the last 2 years.

All whole lot of very twisted psychology there. Projection, splitting-off, acting out... As if the real problems we're facing weren't enough. God help us.

141 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:36:28pm

re: #134 Thanos

They are also the leader in construction in many other areas as well Walter, they are not the oil company, they are not the coal company, they are not the gas company. They are the big ass construction company that does bigass contracting jobs. They build harbors and hotels too.

Ok... sure... I understand. They have no stake in whether the oil and gas industry collapses tomorrow.//

And really, I know who they are, and how much of their business is oil and gas related, damn, I worked for one of their divisions for 13 years.

142 recusancy  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:36:40pm

re: #125 sattv4u2

The Tea Partiers are lefties, because thats who was screaming about Bush/Cheney being in the pocket of their Oil Bidness/ Arab Sheik buddies back in the mid 90's!!?!?!

Lefties don't mind the high price of oil because it will cause action towards alternatives. The people that were gnashing teeth I think are more the center, uninformed and prone to populism (ie tea bagging).

143 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:36:48pm

re: #137 windsagio

I'll put it simply.

People didn't complain about the price per barrel, but about the price per gallon.

At least when talking about general outrage.

Is this some bizarre attempt to make some attack on the President? because if it is, you've just gotta get out more.


And again (deliberate??) you changed what my original post was,, you know ,, the one you still haven't addressed

nice try!!

144 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:36:56pm

re: #135 Guanxi88

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they're not doing short-term things as well, like trying to extend the petroleum age. They're perfectly capable of giving with one hand and taking with the other :P

145 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:37:19pm

re: #136 Racer X

Especially if you play his speech backwards.

Obama - Yes We Can = Thank You Satan


[Video]LMAO!

I've got good news. That gum you like is going to come back in style.

146 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:37:23pm

re: #142 recusancy

Lefties don't mind the high price of oil because it will cause action towards alternatives. The people that were gnashing teeth I think are more the center, uninformed and prone to populism (ie tea bagging).

that would be one ginormous FAIL

147 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:37:36pm

re: #143 sattv4u2

Your Logic is like the Peace of God.

148 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:38:00pm

re: #144 windsagio

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they're not doing short-term things as well, like trying to extend the petroleum age. They're perfectly capable of giving with one hand and taking with the other :P

Well, yeah - gotta pay today's bills, after all.

Nobody's a saint, and nobody's a devil in the world of business.

149 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:38:54pm

re: #148 Guanxi88

My argument is that (like the tobacco companies, since they're so convenient) the oil companies are going a bit too far, and are doing it with clear knowledge of what they're doing.

That's a whole different piece of cake.

150 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:38:56pm

re: #147 windsagio

Your Logic is like the Peace of God.

And thats the 3rd snark,
{sigh}

151 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:39:41pm

re: #150 sattv4u2

Hell, + for getting the reference :P

152 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:40:34pm

re: #109 Uninformed Opinion

That seems a bit of an exaggeration. Considering that energy companies have had the habit of buying patents and suppressing technology for 50 years...

I don't see how that works. When you apply for a patent, you make a full public disclosure of your invention in return for legal protection against uncompensated use for a period of 20 years, after which time the invention enters the public domain. Patents, by their very nature, are the antithesis of suppression. In fact, the benefit to society obtained from the patent process is based on exactly that: the open disclosure of information, and the constant striving to innovate that eventual release into the public domain promotes.

Buying patents doesn't suppress anything. The cat's already out of the bag.

153 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:40:37pm

re: #151 windsagio

Hell, + for getting the reference :P

Take it back ,, it feels ,,, idunno ,,,, dirty coming from you!

154 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:40:46pm

re: #109 Uninformed Opinion

That seems a bit of an exaggeration. Considering that energy companies have had the habit of buying patents and suppressing technology for 50 years...

I find I made an inadvertent compliment to politicians in the above, what I meant was that politicians sometimes take stands on what they call immutable principles, right or wrong, whereas business deals with their profitability in the next 3 months or less./

However I to say that energy companies are suppressing technology reeks of conspiratorial paranoia. Energy industry as a whole has been quite the opposite, as has most technological/scientific advance. If you want to cherry pick individual examples you may be able to find some, but that is what we call Capitalism. Do you have a problem with that?

155 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:41:16pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

But that doesn't make the IOP and AGW denier group. Any more than the National Renewable Energy Lab is a shill of big energy because they are run by Bechtel.

Nobody has made those accusation Walter, you are addressing your own strawmen.

156 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:41:23pm

re: #136 Racer X

Especially if you play his speech backwards.

Obama - Yes We Can = Thank You Satan


[Video]LMAO!

yikes

157 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:41:28pm

re: #153 sattv4u2

Eeh, I'd tell you what I really think but I suspect that would just piss everybody off :p

158 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:41:43pm

re: #123 windsagio

lol I never heard that >>

I guess its good for them to be able to hold annihilation over our heads tho :)

Yes, strangely enough I never found the rainbow 'promise' to be very comforting after that. The version of catholicism we were taught depended on what teacher we had that year. Some of the teachers we had were pretty insane, but we had no way of knowing at the time. For example, we were taught by one of my first teachers that it was a mortal sin to go to a protestant sunday school, (as though we were all dying to bunk of school and go wild with the protestant religious lessons) and that confession, while a good thing, would not wipe the slate clean with regard to sins like that. You would be 'forgiven', but you'd still be going to hell...lol

159 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:41:55pm

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

And Charles, what do you mean by this comment...

"And of course, he didn’t disclose this fact in his testimony; it had to be revealed by the Guardian."

What testimony?

Charles, thanks for the correction on the blog entry. Of course, Phil Gill never testified at the hearing.

And, for those who did not get a chance to read the transcript from the 03-01-2010 UK Parliament hearing about CRU, with Dr. Phil Jones and a number of other scientist, here's the full transcript.

[Link: www.publications.parliament.uk...]

There hearing was very favorable to the validity of climate science.

160 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:42:17pm

re: #149 windsagio

My argument is that (like the tobacco companies, since they're so convenient) the oil companies are going a bit too far, and are doing it with clear knowledge of what they're doing.

That's a whole different piece of cake.

Again - it's just business. Look, these guys (or their descendants), so far as I know, do not yet have plans to evacuate off-world. They know what's coming down the pike, and they're doing what they can to keep revenues up now while they look to future earnings.

Are there some crooked and shady dealings and folk involved in it? Of course there are, and there's a lot of dishonesty in the "research" and advocacy they fund.

Yeah, they push away with one hand, and with the other, they reach out. It's, sadly, the way of the world.

161 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:43:06pm

re: #131 freetoken


Some are accepting it, and trying to figure out how to profit from it. Others seem to be in total denial (e.g., the "CO2 is good for you" crowd.)

I don't buy that the "industry" has anything to do with this group of loons.

162 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:43:08pm

re: #155 goddamnedfrank

Nobody has made those accusation Walter, you are addressing your own strawmen.

Yes, I agree, mentioning the IOP AGW denial in the same breath is a straw man.

163 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:43:32pm

re: #162 Walter L. Newton

Yes, I agree, mentioning the IOP AGW denial in the same breath is a straw man.

Is that you, TOTO!?!

164 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:46:11pm

Let me add, as well, that to conflate ersatz Christian apocalyptic theory with the denial of AGW is to miss the point entirely, and would be roughly equivalent to attributing Mao's Long March to the traditional love of the Chinese for mountainscapes.

165 freetoken  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:46:14pm

re: #161 Naso Tang

I don't buy that the "industry" has anything to do with this group of loons.

When large umbrella organizations such as the American Petroleum Institute and the US Chamber of Commerce start getting involved, I think it is fair to start using the broader term "industry".

166 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:46:19pm

re: #160 Guanxi88

I'm just not willing to accept this kind of misbehavior as 'the way of the world'. In a pefect world, they'd be sanctioned for it. As it is, the least we can do is object to the bad behavior.

167 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:46:24pm
168 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:46:32pm

Many of you are missing the point here. It's not just the oil companies. The main source of cheap electricity across the world is not oil or gas. It's Coal.

[Link: www.eia.doe.gov...]

Coal fights the hardest and the dirtiest among all the energy lobbies -- remember they are in the fight not only to stay in production so they are Anti-AGW but they are also in other battles to keep cleaner sources from coming online. So you can track back grants from coal companies to Environmental groups and coalitions for anti-nuclear agit prop over the last thirty years, and you can find Unions in it up to their neck as well.

Every smidge of a percent point of market share is worth hundreds of billions of dollars to them.

169 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:47:09pm

re: #166 windsagio

I'm just not willing to accept this kind of misbehavior as 'the way of the world'. In a pefect world, they'd be sanctioned for it. As it is, the least we can do is object to the bad behavior.

Object away, and do so with all necessary vigor and force. I do, since I got better informed on the matter, and have loaded up on BP stock when it dips.

170 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:47:13pm

re: #168 Thanos

Well said. "The extraction industry" just sounds so stilted tho >>

171 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:47:15pm

re: #162 Walter L. Newton

Yes, I agree, mentioning the IOP AGW denial in the same breath is a straw man.

That's ridiculous, Walter. You're distorting what I wrote, shamelessly.

You posted an attempt to deflect the blame away from energy industries. I responded that it's very nice that Bechtel is funding renewable energy, but that it has nothing to do with the fact that the energy industries are funding anti-AGW propaganda.

At no time did I say or imply that the Institute of Physics is one of those groups. This is the very definition of a straw man argument -- you're attributing statements to me that I did not make. And that sucks.

172 windsagio  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:47:36pm

re: #169 Guanxi88

lol cynic :p

173 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:47:51pm

re: #141 Walter L. Newton

Ok... sure... I understand. They have no stake in whether the oil and gas industry collapses tomorrow.//

And really, I know who they are, and how much of their business is oil and gas related, damn, I worked for one of their divisions for 13 years.

Walter I worked for them too, I know what they do and yes a big part of their revenue stream is energy construction. It's still a baldfaced lie to call them "Big Energy".

174 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:48:39pm
175 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:48:44pm

re: #172 windsagio

lol cynic :p

Hey, if anyone can figure out a way forward through this mess, I figure it's got to be those guys. With that kinda dough behind 'em, and with the incentive to keep things profitable for the long term, they're a pretty good bet.

176 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:48:55pm

re: #138 Charles

Here's an article at the Belfast Telegraph that is absolutely pure AGW denial. Every single dishonest talking point is in here: Sammy’s right, man is not responsible for global warming.

The author of the article: Terry Jackson BSc Msc MPhil (founder of the Energy Group, Institute of Physics, London).

I love how he leads with one of the dumbest and most oft-refuted talking points that's been doing the rounds the last year or two:

The earth has been cooling for the last 10 years yet CO2 levels have still been increasing. How come, if man is supposed to be responsible for climate change?

177 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:48:56pm

re: #171 Charles

That's ridiculous, Walter. You're distorting what I wrote, shamelessly.

You posted an attempt to deflect the blame away from energy industries. I responded that it's very nice that Bechtel is funding renewable energy, but that it has nothing to do with the fact that the energy industries are funding anti-AGW propaganda.

At no time did I say or imply that the Institute of Physics is one of those groups. This is the very definition of a straw man argument -- you're attributing statements to me that I did not make. And that sucks.

I wasn't attributing it to you at all. Did you see Franks question. I admitted that it was a straw man for me placing those idea together. He was address me, I was not address you.

Sorry for the confusion.

178 solomonpanting  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:49:10pm
Does that “religion” talking point sound familiar? It should; this is the same absurd smear often used by creationists against those who accept the science of evolution.

As in:

Top home-school texts dismiss Darwin, evolution

179 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:49:45pm

re: #167 Racer X

It worked!

180 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:50:10pm

re: #162 Walter L. Newton

Yes, I agree, mentioning the IOP AGW denial in the same breath is a straw man.

Don't be a smart-ass, if they issued a clarification because a denier was involved in drafting the letter, and no member of the board can be found that supports it, that is worth mentioning. It seems clear that reporting the clarification makes it clear that they are NOT a denier group, and that you are addressing your own straw man.

181 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:50:13pm

re: #173 Thanos

Walter I worked for them too, I know what they do and yes a big part of their revenue stream is energy construction. It's still a baldfaced lie to call them "Big Energy".

I never called them "Big Energy," did I? Show me where I called them "Big Energy?"

182 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:50:49pm

re: #180 goddamnedfrank

Don't be a smart-ass, if they issued a clarification because a denier was involved in drafting the letter, and no member of the board can be found that supports it, that is worth mentioning. It seems clear that reporting the clarification makes it clear that they are NOT a denier group, and that you are addressing your own straw man.

Slow down Frankie. I was admitting that my statement was a straw man. What more do you want, blood?

183 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:51:54pm

re: #168 Thanos

Let me add, though, that the real cutting-edge of carbon sequestration technology is being developed by these coal companies. They see what's going to have to happen if they're going to stay in business, and they're all trying to be the first to market with a proven and profitable technology.

Question is, though, whether the PRC - world's largest producer and heavy, heavy, user, of coal - will play along.

184 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:53:04pm

re: #182 Walter L. Newton

Slow down Frankie. I was admitting that my statement was a straw man. What more do you want, blood?

How else do we get the strawmen to stick together?

185 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:53:19pm

re: #165 freetoken

When large umbrella organizations such as the American Petroleum Institute and the US Chamber of Commerce start getting involved, I think it is fair to start using the broader term "industry".

This is tantamount to saying "society" is guilty. I don't know about the Petroleum Institute specifically, nor the US Chamber of Commerce in detail, but they both sounds like groups that are composed of self serving lobbyists that have little to do with how to figure out the next generation of oil drilling rigs, or efficient/clean oil burning power stations. The latter are what I consider The Industry.

186 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:53:54pm

re: #180 goddamnedfrank

Don't be a smart-ass

I'm confused ,, Walter admitted to making a (bad) strawman, and for that admission he's called an ASS!?!?

187 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:54:02pm

re: #184 iceweasel

How else do we get the strawmen to stick together?

Well, you got a point there. Maybe wicker works better? (vague reference to old movie).

188 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:54:07pm

re: #183 Guanxi88

Let me add, though, that the real cutting-edge of carbon sequestration technology is being developed by these coal companies. They see what's going to have to happen if they're going to stay in business, and they're all trying to be the first to market with a proven and profitable technology.

Question is, though, whether the PRC - world's largest producer and heavy, heavy, user, of coal - will play along.

Right, they're researching carbon sequestration, that's true.

And the coal industry is spending millions of dollars to fund anti-AGW front groups. That is also true.

189 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:54:44pm

re: #184 iceweasel

How else do we get the strawmen to stick together?

sports!!

190 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:54:45pm
191 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:55:15pm

re: #184 iceweasel

How else do we get the strawmen to stick together?

re: #189 sattv4u2

sports!!

and strip joints ,,

192 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:55:39pm

re: #183 Guanxi88

Let me add, though, that the real cutting-edge of carbon sequestration technology is being developed by these coal companies. They see what's going to have to happen if they're going to stay in business, and they're all trying to be the first to market with a proven and profitable technology.

Question is, though, whether the PRC - world's largest producer and heavy, heavy, user, of coal - will play along.

they play both sides. as always.

193 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:56:08pm

re: #188 Charles

Right, they're researching carbon sequestration, that's true.

And the coal industry is spending of millions of dollars to fund anti-AGW front groups. That is also true.

Yeah - they're either cynical or realists, or both. I suggest that they know full well they can't go on like this forever, but also understand that they can't yet stop what they're doing without killing themselves in the marketplace.

And so, they'll do what they can to slow things down on the one hand, and work to get ready for it on the other hand. kinda like the way I dragged my heels about getting married - i knew it was inevitable, knew it was the right thing to do, but tried to slow it down all the same until I was better prepared.

194 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:56:46pm

re: #193 Guanxi88

Except you delaying getting married doesn't have an adverse effect on the rest of humanity. So not that similar, really, at all.

195 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:57:25pm

re: #194 Obdicut

Except you delaying getting married doesn't have an adverse effect on the rest of humanity. So not that similar, really, at all.

My wife would have taken issue with you on that point, but I do concede the stakes are bit higher in the coal instance.

196 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:57:48pm

I would also like to say that carbon sequestration is great in theory, but its still a logistical hassle. At least as much of a hassle as coordinating clean energy projects.

197 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:58:42pm

re: #181 Walter L. Newton

I never called them "Big Energy," did I? Show me where I called them "Big Energy?"

Bah - here's what you said, I shortened it, and genericized to give you at least a tiny bit of cover :

When we look at other scientific organizations (such are the National Renewable Energy Lab) and find "scary big oil" involved with running the lab, do we suspect everything coming out of the research there?

So my statement stands it's a bald faced lie to state that "Scary big Oil" is running NREL by implying that Bechtel is "Scary Big OIL"

198 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:58:45pm

re: #194 Obdicut

Except you delaying getting married doesn't have an adverse effect on the rest of humanity. So not that similar, really, at all.

(that's what "Kinda like" is intended to convey. It is to suggest some resemblance, heavily qualified, between two courses of action. It would also have been correct to point out that my getting married didn't affect the coal industry, and/or that carbon sequestration would play but a minor role in our wedding.)

199 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:59:35pm

re: #195 Guanxi88

It's not just that the stakes are higher. It's that they're knowingly taking steps that are damaging as hell, by lobbying against doing anything on global warming. It's about as ethically indefensible as you get.

200 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:59:40pm

re: #196 Uninformed Opinion

I would also like to say that carbon sequestration is great in theory, but its still a logistical hassle. At least as much of a hassle as coordinating clean energy projects.

Carbon sequestration is many years away from being a reality. Of course, that doesn't stop the coal industry from mounting PR campaigns that try to trick people into thinking it's already here.

201 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:59:55pm

re: #184 iceweasel

How else do we get the strawmen to stick together?

Wicker is better suited to this kind of application. Sorry Walter.

202 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:59:57pm

re: #183 Guanxi88

Let me add, though, that the real cutting-edge of carbon sequestration technology is being developed by these coal companies. They see what's going to have to happen if they're going to stay in business, and they're all trying to be the first to market with a proven and profitable technology.

Question is, though, whether the PRC - world's largest producer and heavy, heavy, user, of coal - will play along.

Meanwhile there is other technology that's already clean, and they've been buying congresscritters for thirty years to keep Nuclear out of the mix.

203 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:00:19pm

re: #200 Charles

Carbon sequestration is many years away from being a reality. Of course, that doesn't stop the coal industry from mounting PR campaigns that try to trick people into thinking it's already here.

or that coal gasification is going to solve the problem.

204 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:00:32pm

re: #202 Thanos

Meanwhile there is other technology that's already clean, and they've been buying congresscritters for thirty years to keep Nuclear out of the mix.

Well, nuke is unacceptable to some fairly vocal and influential folk, so we gotta go with what we got.

205 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:01:05pm

re: #136 Racer X

Especially if you play his speech backwards.

Obama - Yes We Can = Thank You Satan


[Video]LMAO!

Not laughing. Do you have any trace on where that came from? I'm seeing more cynical than crazy, there.

206 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:02:30pm

re: #197 Thanos

So my statement stands it's a bald faced lie to state that "Scary big Oil" is running NREL by implying that Bechtel is "Scary Big OIL"

Point Thanos... they are a major contractor to "beg scary oil." And you never addressed my question. You don't thin that Becthel has a stake in keeping big oil as... well... big oil?

207 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:02:58pm

re: #187 Walter L. Newton

Well, you got a point there. Maybe wicker works better? (vague reference to old movie).

Is that you, Birdy?

208 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:03:18pm

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

He did answer it. He noted they're a large construction firm, not an oil-services firm in particular, and they'd be likely involved in building reactors.

209 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:04:23pm

re: #204 Guanxi88

Well, nuke is unacceptable to some fairly vocal and influential folk, so we gotta go with what we got.

Too bad, Nuclear is inevitable. It's not viewed as badly as it was anymore. When Stewart Brand and Patrick Moore are saying "Go Nuke!" the battle is lost.

210 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:04:58pm

re: #203 Uninformed Opinion

or that coal gasification is going to solve the problem.

That one's a hoot, by the way. There are processes in place to make CTL and CTG less harmful, but they mostly amount to expensive ways to make synthetic hydrocarbon fuels, and so they do nothing to address the problem.

211 freetoken  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:05:06pm

re: #185 Naso Tang

The latter are what I consider The Industry.

The two may not be separable.

212 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:05:31pm

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

No, they really don't. Plant is plant, construction is construction, and they'll build nuke plant as well as they build Oil or Coal plant.

213 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:05:34pm

re: #205 Decatur Deb

That's been around since the election. The people who made it were serious.

214 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:05:47pm

re: #208 Obdicut

He did answer it. He noted they're a large construction firm, not an oil-services firm in particular, and they'd be likely involved in building reactors.

Funny, I wasn't talking to you.

215 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:05:49pm

re: #209 Thanos

Too bad, Nuclear is inevitable. It's not viewed as badly as it was anymore. When Stewart Brand and Patrick Moore are saying "Go Nuke!" the battle is lost.

I agree, folk aren't as irrationally afraid of the idea as once they were. Waste storage is a problem, of course, but there's no free lunch.

216 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:05:51pm

re: #118 Jimmah

I was taught, in my catholic school, that God had merely promised not to wipe humanity out again by drowning. Apparently he still has options on fire, pestilence etc.

The Fire Next Time

217 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:06:22pm

re: #187 Walter L. Newton

Well, you got a point there. Maybe wicker works better? (vague reference to old movie).

Didn't see this before I posted #201, nice. Sorry again, mistook your post as somehow referencing the topic itself.

218 blueraven  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:06:35pm

re: #126 windsagio

I like our star going nova, and charring the planet to ash. Now that's dramatic!

Wasn't that an Asimov short story?

219 Guanxi88  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:06:43pm

re: #216 Decatur Deb

The Fire Next Time


[Video]

alle ist klar, Herr Kommissar?

220 freetoken  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:07:08pm

re: #213 Killgore Trout

Deep crazy, it all is.

221 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:07:16pm

re: #214 Walter L. Newton

Is there something wrong with pointing out that he already answered you, Walter?

222 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:07:40pm

re: #205 Decatur Deb

Not laughing. Do you have any trace on where that came from? I'm seeing more cynical than crazy, there.

I'm seeing the hairs rise on my arms. Shit like that is straight out of a horror movie.

223 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:09:07pm

re: #215 Guanxi88

I agree, folk aren't as irrationally afraid of the idea as once they were. Waste storage is a problem, of course, but there's no free lunch.

I dont understand why nuclear subsidies are viewed as ok while the track record of cost overruns is horrific.

224 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:09:11pm

re: #215 Guanxi88

I agree, folk aren't as irrationally afraid of the idea as once they were. Waste storage is a problem, of course, but there's no free lunch.

No, it's only a political problem. That "waste" can be re-burned (See Bill Gate's latest Ted Talk) or if worst comes to worst and for political reasons we reall had to actually dispose of the valuable stuff then we can drop the coke can sized container of waste you would create from every erg of energy used by you in your lifetime in the Mariannas trench.

225 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:09:22pm

re: #212 Thanos

No, they really don't. Plant is plant, construction is construction, and they'll build nuke plant as well as they build Oil or Coal plant.

Well, we will just have to disagree. If they were to suddenly loose their oil and gas construction (and management) projects, it would be a large hit on their over all bottom line.

Come on Thanos, if you really worked for them, or one of their divisions, you know well enough that they don't just "build" things. They manage plants, R&D for the oil and gas industry, coal mining and so on and so on.

Nice little fairy tale expecting anyone to think that Betchel is not in bed with big oil, and big government.

226 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:09:56pm

re: #223 Uninformed Opinion

Because we really need readily-available power. And we can get better at cost overruns by following the French model.

227 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:10:52pm

re: #201 goddamnedfrank

Wicker is better suited to this kind of application. Sorry Walter.

Wicker Man: the other ending.

Be afraid.

228 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:11:48pm

re: #226 Obdicut

Because we really need readily-available power. And we can get better at cost overruns by following the French model.

or we can put that money elsewhere...

229 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:12:00pm

re: #225 Walter L. Newton

Well, we will just have to disagree. If they were to suddenly loose their oil and gas construction (and management) projects, it would be a large hit on their over all bottom line.

Come on Thanos, if you really worked for them, or one of their divisions, you know well enough that they don't just "build" things. They manage plants, R&D for the oil and gas industry, coal mining and so on and so on.

Nice little fairy tale expecting anyone to think that Betchel is not in bed with big oil, and big government.

They are like Kiewitt Walter, they will do frigging anything that's a big job. They don't care who's paying the check. They are one of the few companies in the world who can do the truly large jobs. The other two have been mentioned in this thread.

230 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:13:52pm

re: #224 Thanos

No, it's only a political problem. That "waste" can be re-burned (See Bill Gate's latest Ted Talk) or if worst comes to worst and for political reasons we reall had to actually dispose of the valuable stuff then we can drop the coke can sized container of waste you would create from every erg of energy used by you in your lifetime in the Mariannas trench.

Waste is stuff we don't know how to use yet. Our smart great-grandkids will mine our nuke waste sites, and our landfills. We should make it easy for them.

231 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:15:28pm

re: #229 Thanos

They are like Kiewitt Walter, they will do frigging anything that's a big job. They don't care who's paying the check. They are one of the few companies in the world who can do the truly large jobs. The other two have been mentioned in this thread.

I know what they can and can't do, I am well aware of that. I didn't ask you if they cared who is paying the check.

I asked you this, which you have not answer... "You don't think that Becthel has a stake in keeping big oil as... well... big oil?

232 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:15:41pm

re: #228 Uninformed Opinion

I agree that we should put large amounts of money into solar and wind, but one irony is that climate change means placement of solar and wind may become interesting challenges. There's lots of other promising technologies to research in, too. If you have something that talks about cost-efficiency of that research effort used in various ways, I'd love to see it.

233 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:16:43pm

re: #25 jamesfirecat

Well if Global Warming ever seems to be a problem I'm sure we can all just moves to cities under the ocean.

When we combine Ayn Rand's Great Men with cities under the sea, why is the refrain in my head "I Owe My Soul to the Company Store"?

234 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:17:04pm

re: #231 Walter L. Newton

No, not if they can get jobs from big wind and big nuclear. I've answered your stupid question now several times, and it's still a bald faced lie to imply that Bechtel is "scary big oil"

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:17:59pm

re: #30 jamesfirecat

Why do you call Ayn Rand fascist?

There are many things wrong with her philosophy, but putting too much power in the hands of the government isn't one of them...

Except that, somehow, I suspect that in Rand's perfect world, when those pesky union organizers get too pesky, factory owners expects some help from the troops...

Just a fleeting suspicion.

236 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:18:50pm

re: #36 zora

i thougt it would be a teenager, not a 24 year old woman. the place where she threw her baby in the trash was not far from a fire dept where she could have surrendered the baby without penalty. that is if the child was still alive. sad indeed.

Frightening and sad.

237 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:19:47pm

re: #42 windsagio

This kind of thing happens once a year or so (it seems like, I have no stats, but I've heard of it several times htis decade) in various places. Kinda scary.

I suppose they think its better than aborting?

I've always supposed it's about denial, and an inability to deal with the facts, but I really don't know.

238 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:19:49pm

re: #234 Thanos

No, not if they can get jobs from big wind and big nuclear. I've answered your stupid question now several times, and it's still a bald faced lie to imply that Bechtel is "scary big oil"

I conceded that point already up thread. It's a bald-faced lie to ignore that I did.

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

And I don't agree that they have a stake in the health of the oil and gas industry.

239 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:25:25pm

re: #238 Walter L. Newton

I conceded that point already up thread. It's a bald-faced lie to ignore that I did.

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

And I don't agree that they have a stake in the health of the oil and gas industry.

No, I'm saying you are being a dog with a bone in not conceding completely, so let's continue with that squeaky toy you are making all of the noise with.

Bechtel builds chemical plants. Bechtel Builds civil infrastructure (roads, bridges etc.) Bechtel Builds mines, mining machinery, dams, buildings, etc.
But when I worked for them it was in Telecommunications. They are big players in that as well. They get a lot of revenue from Oil, Gas, LNG and petrochemical construction as well, but Walter, it's not going to kill them if that's replaced by other construction. Because Bechtel is good at what they do, it would be replaced by other construction. You can count on it.

240 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:26:11pm

re: #238 Walter L. Newton

I conceded that point already up thread. It's a bald-faced lie to ignore that I did.

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

And I don't agree that they have a stake in the health of the oil and gas industry.

Correction... And I don't agree with you that they don't have a stake in the health of the oil and gas industry.

241 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:27:39pm

re: #232 Obdicut

I agree that we should put large amounts of money into solar and wind, but one irony is that climate change means placement of solar and wind may become interesting challenges. There's lots of other promising technologies to research in, too. If you have something that talks about cost-efficiency of that research effort used in various ways, I'd love to see it.

I do suffer from a lack of data on the cost efficiency of power generation methods.

That being said, i am a huge fan of natural gas combined with fuel cells.

242 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:27:47pm

re: #230 Decatur Deb

Waste is stuff we don't know how to use yet. Our smart great-grandkids will mine our nuke waste sites, and our landfills. We should make it easy for them.

243 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:28:16pm

re: #239 Thanos

Yes, they can make lots of money in lots of area. I don't agree with you that they don't have a stake in the health of the oil and gas industry. That' that.

244 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:29:14pm

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

Correction... And I don't agree with you that they don't have a stake in the health of the oil and gas industry.

I got that already.. you still don't have a small leg to stand on with your original statement, and I can understand why you are heading down this path since it distracts from the main thread and the ridiculous statement you tried to deflect Charle's post with.

245 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:30:23pm

re: #228 Uninformed Opinion

or we can put that money elsewhere...

sure. into things that don't keep the lights on yet.

cost overruns but the lights stay on > cost overruns and Aceofwhat hamsters himself on the treadmill so that the kids can watch Spongebob.

priorities, copain.

246 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:31:06pm

re: #243 Walter L. Newton

Yes, they can make lots of money in lots of area. I don't agree with you that they don't have a stake in the health of the oil and gas industry. That' that.

I've never said they didn't have a stake, that's what you said, read my posts again where I specifically said that they do construction for petrochem industry and quit trying to stuff your strawman in my mouth, people are on to your gig here Walt.

247 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:31:11pm

re: #241 Uninformed Opinion

I'm going to start reading up on the proposed solutions and their economic viability. Hopefully it doesn't take forever to get up to speed on.

Probably longer than this thread, though.

248 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:31:17pm

re: #244 Thanos

I got that already.. you still don't have a small leg to stand on with your original statement, and I can understand why you are heading down this path since it distracts from the main thread and the ridiculous statement you tried to deflect Charle's post with.

I'm not deflecting anything. I stand by everything I said on this thread, including the retractions or mistakes I made. My goodness, you should know me better than that by now.

249 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:31:43pm

re: #245 Aceofwhat?

sure. into things that don't keep the lights on yet.

cost overruns but the lights stay on > cost overruns and Aceofwhat hamsters himself on the treadmill so that the kids can watch Spongebob.

priorities, copain.

I dont see that as a valid argument. the lights are going to stay on anyway.

250 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:34:06pm

re: #249 Uninformed Opinion

I dont see that as a valid argument. the lights are going to stay on anyway.

Got candles?

251 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:34:35pm

re: #246 Thanos

I've never said they didn't have a stake, that's what you said, read my posts again where I specifically said that they do construction for petrochem industry and quit trying to stuff your strawman in my mouth, people are on to your gig here Walt.

I think we are simply talking across each other. I already conceded that it was foolish of me to make them sound like they were "big oil." I badly stated what I was really trying to say. And that was... Betchell has a stake in the health of big oil and gas.

252 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:34:39pm

re: #241 Uninformed Opinion

I do suffer from a lack of data on the cost efficiency of power generation methods.

That being said, i am a huge fan of natural gas combined with fuel cells.

One of the common mistakes that people make when doing this research is to leave out the refueling cycles - please make sure that you research that as well. (e.g. a nuke plant looks like a bad deal next to a coal or oil plant based on construction costs until you look at total uptime and total cost of the lifetime of fuel.)

253 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:37:03pm

re: #251 Walter L. Newton

I think we are simply talking across each other. I already conceded that it was foolish of me to make them sound like they were "big oil." I badly stated what I was really trying to say. And that was... Betchell has a stake in the health of big oil and gas.

,... and I'm saying that they will have a stake in their replacement industry as well if that's the way you want to phrase it. At some point oil tankers and coal cars will be about as common as Ice Trucks are today, Bechtel's wise enough to see that.

254 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:38:36pm

re: #253 Thanos

,... and I'm saying that they will have a stake in their replacement industry as well if that's the way you want to phrase it. At some point oil tankers and coal cars will be about as common as Ice Trucks are today, Bechtel's wise enough to see that.

Then that we can agree on.

255 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:42:17pm

re: #252 Thanos

Do you have any place to get started? I've seen a few studies, but mainly by whatever industry group wants those numbers seen.

256 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:42:42pm

re: #249 Uninformed Opinion

I dont see that as a valid argument. the lights are going to stay on anyway.

well...let me reveal my validity.

our current power sources -> unclean

short-term replacement of current power with wind, solar, and fuel cells -> expensive and impossible

short-term replacement of current power with nuclear, wind, solar, and fuel cells -> expensive and possible

i vote option 3.

257 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:42:51pm

re: #252 Thanos

One of the common mistakes that people make when doing this research is to leave out the refueling cycles - please make sure that you research that as well. (e.g. a nuke plant looks like a bad deal next to a coal or oil plant based on construction costs until you look at total uptime and total cost of the lifetime of fuel.)

I've been living in the most nuclear-powered country of the world for more than thirty years. And in all that time, no one has been able to precisely state the total start-to-finish cost of a nuclear-generated kilowatt hour. And if anyone really knows, he/she isn't telling, since the best estimates are astronomic. Meaning way, way higher than Areva (the latest incarnation in the endless shell-game of the French nuclear monopoly) would have people believe.

With so much obfuscation and outright lying by the world's premier nuclear energy provider, how can one be expected to have any confidence at all in this technology?

258 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:43:20pm

re: #252 Thanos

One of the common mistakes that people make when doing this research is to leave out the refueling cycles - please make sure that you research that as well. (e.g. a nuke plant looks like a bad deal next to a coal or oil plant based on construction costs until you look at total uptime and total cost of the lifetime of fuel.)

well said

259 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:43:44pm

re: #252 Thanos

One of the common mistakes that people make when doing this research is to leave out the refueling cycles - please make sure that you research that as well. (e.g. a nuke plant looks like a bad deal next to a coal or oil plant based on construction costs until you look at total uptime and total cost of the lifetime of fuel.)

Using nuclear power as a transition is great in theory, but its still a logistical hassle. At least as much of a hassle as coordinating other energy projects.

I dont see the point in being alarmist, the lights are not going out.

260 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:44:41pm

re: #253 Thanos

,... snip At some point oil tankers and coal cars will be about as common as Ice Trucks are today, Bechtel's wise enough to see that.

There is a problem inherent in corporate wisdom. There are few market rewards, and great risks, for the corporation that sacrifices for the distant (100 yr) future.
At an extreme, such planning is unethical or illegal restraint on stockholder value. (A possible exception is family/dynastic holdings.)

261 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:44:56pm

re: #257 ryannon


With so much obfuscation and outright lying by the world's premier nuclear energy provider, how can one be expected to have any confidence at all in this technology?

As it stands today.

262 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:45:16pm

re: #257 ryannon

well, it works. (for the purposes of generating a significant percentage of a nation's power generation)

as compared to, say, wind tech.

263 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:46:30pm

Wow, I just sat down to pay bills. I opened my insurance bill and the premiums increased another 30%! That's after a 30% increase a few months ago. My policy, which now covers less, used to cost $150 a month 5 years ago. Now costs $404 a month! Fucking ridiculous.

264 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:47:48pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

Wow, I just sat down to pay bills. I opened my insurance bill and the premiums increased another 30%! That's after a 30% increase a few months ago. My policy, which now covers less, used to cost $150 a month 5 years ago. Now costs $404 a month! Fucking ridiculous.

The market has spoken.

265 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:48:26pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

I didn't pay last month because I cleaned out my account to pay off my mortgage. I owe $808, which I don't have. I'm fucked.

266 austin_blue  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:48:44pm

re: #202 Thanos

Meanwhile there is other technology that's already clean, and they've been buying congresscritters for thirty years to keep Nuclear out of the mix.

You mean, like this?

[Link: www.wired.com...]

Almost no waste and a meltdown-proof reactor design?

267 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:48:52pm

re: #255 Obdicut

Do you have any place to get started? I've seen a few studies, but mainly by whatever industry group wants those numbers seen.

Here's the official Industry group NEI -- they are very honest because when it comes to Energy lobbies they've been the red haired stepchild for so long that they have to be.
Here's Atomic Rod, he's Liberal and been a long time proponent of nuclear. There are also a lot of pro nuclear blogs in his sidebar.
Here's DOE nuclear page [Link: www.energy.gov...]
Here's 1 Nuclear place, basically an aggregator of all nuclear news stories, good and bad.

268 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:49:01pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

Wow, I just sat down to pay bills. I opened my insurance bill and the premiums increased another 30%! That's after a 30% increase a few months ago. My policy, which now covers less, used to cost $150 a month 5 years ago. Now costs $404 a month! Fucking ridiculous.

Yes, but under Obamacare they might remove your feet to give them to a more worthy citizen. Count your blessings!

///

269 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:49:39pm

re: #264 Decatur Deb

Yeah, since I'm already a month behind they'll cancel me before I can pay this off. Fuck!

270 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:49:49pm

re: #262 Aceofwhat?

well, it works. (for the purposes of generating a significant percentage of a nation's power generation)

as compared to, say, wind tech.

It works better than anything.

But beyond that, there's a whole lot about it that doesn't work at all - or at least not like they say. And it's that part that's extremely worrisome.

271 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:50:02pm

re: #247 Obdicut

I'm going to start reading up on the proposed solutions and their economic viability. Hopefully it doesn't take forever to get up to speed on.

Probably longer than this thread, though.

heh. smart money says there will be a nice thread cooking on the subject on whichever day you 'feel ready'. (and deservedly so)

272 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:50:04pm

re: #257 ryannon

Sorry, hit some of the links I've cited above -- the costs are known.

273 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:50:37pm

re: #269 Killgore Trout

Yeah, since I'm already a month behind they'll cancel me before I can pay this off. Fuck!

I am really sorry.

274 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:51:05pm

re: #259 Uninformed Opinion

Using nuclear power as a transition is great in theory, but its still a logistical hassle. At least as much of a hassle as coordinating other energy projects.

I dont see the point in being alarmist, the lights are not going out.

That logistical hassle exists whatever future power source we use.

275 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:51:38pm

re: #269 Killgore Trout

Yeah, since I'm already a month behind they'll cancel me before I can pay this off. Fuck!

It stinks, and I vote we fix it.

276 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:52:14pm

re: #272 Thanos

Sorry, hit some of the links I've cited above -- the costs are known.

Will do - and thank you for providing them.

277 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:52:25pm

re: #270 ryannon

It works better than anything.

But beyond that, there's a whole lot about it that doesn't work at all - or at least not like they say. And it's that part that's extremely worrisome.

i won't argue with that. here in the states, the alternatives are dirty energy or radically less energy. i'm comfortable calling it our 'least worst' scenario if you are...

278 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:53:07pm

re: #274 Thanos

That logistical hassle exists whatever future power source we use.

Absolutely, and I am willing to be convinced, however the nuclear industry as it stands now is not worthy of the money.

279 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:53:34pm

re: #269 Killgore Trout

Yeah, since I'm already a month behind they'll cancel me before I can pay this off. Fuck!

some are better than others at restructuring your payments over the next 12 months or so to help you catch back up...have you tried that?

sorry about this, dude.

280 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:55:02pm

re: #267 Thanos

Thanks a lot.

281 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:55:54pm

re: #278 Uninformed Opinion

Absolutely, and I am willing to be convinced, however the nuclear industry as it stands now is not worthy of the money.

As it stands now it's generating the most carbon free power at an inexpensive cost.

Here's a page on lifetieme costs for Nuke plants, including decommissioning.

282 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:56:12pm

Well ok... .here's the link

[Link: www.nei.org...]

283 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:56:58pm

re: #278 Uninformed Opinion

Absolutely, and I am willing to be convinced, however the nuclear industry as it stands now is not worthy of the money.

are you replete with examples of energy industries that are worth the money?

284 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:57:44pm

re: #278 Uninformed Opinion

Absolutely, and I am willing to be convinced, however the nuclear industry as it stands now is not worthy of the money.

nothing ventured, nothing gained...it's up to us to take on the challenge, figure it out and get it right....defeatism will get us nowhere

285 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:59:17pm

re: #265 Killgore Trout

I didn't pay last month because I cleaned out my account to pay off my mortgage. I owe $808, which I don't have. I'm fucked.

I'm curious - why pay off your mortgage? Or was that a monthly mortgage payment?

286 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 4:59:28pm

re: #284 albusteve

nothing ventured, nothing gained...it's up to us to take on the challenge, figure it out and get it right...defeatism will get us nowhere

Very good point.

287 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:00:48pm

re: #279 Aceofwhat?

some are better than others at restructuring your payments over the next 12 months or so to help you catch back up...have you tried that?


That's a good idea. I'm going to give them a call on Monday and figure out what's going on. This is insanity. There's no sense in trying to pay this off if rates keep going up like this. This just isn't sustainable.
I almost wonder is the healthcare system is going to implode before anything can be done about it.

288 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:01:30pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

Wow, I just sat down to pay bills. I opened my insurance bill and the premiums increased another 30%! That's after a 30% increase a few months ago. My policy, which now covers less, used to cost $150 a month 5 years ago. Now costs $404 a month! Fucking ridiculous.

Yes, amazing, isn't it? Frightening, too. Be grateful that you can pay it, is my only suggestion.

289 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:01:49pm

re: #267 Thanos

Here's the official Industry group NEI -- they are very honest because when it comes to Energy lobbies they've been the red haired stepchild for so long that they have to be.
Here's Atomic Rod, he's Liberal and been a long time proponent of nuclear. There are also a lot of pro nuclear blogs in his sidebar.
Here's DOE nuclear page [Link: www.energy.gov...]
Here's 1 Nuclear place, basically an aggregator of all nuclear news stories, good and bad.

Excellent linkamajigs. Thanks!

290 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:02:39pm

re: #280 Obdicut

You are most welcome.

Back in the 70's I went through a real depressed period in my life, looking at the population bomb, the need for energy, greenhouse effect (as global warming was known back then...) and other factors in our future, and what challenges we had to overcome. I did a lot of research and reading, and I like to think long term.

The only thing that I saw as being able to save us longer term was and still is Nuclear energy.

291 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:03:37pm

re: #265 Killgore Trout

Credit Card? Might get you through...

292 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:03:53pm

I also admit, I dont want them mining uranium in my back yard.

293 swamprat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:04:12pm

re: #269 Killgore Trout

Yeah, since I'm already a month behind they'll cancel me before I can pay this off. Fuck!

You payed off a MORTGAGE! You own a HOUSE! If that isn't colateral for $808 it must be tiny. It may gall you, but you aren't without resource.

294 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:04:27pm

re: #287 Killgore Trout

They might be flexible in this legislative season. It's surprising they didn't hold off for a few weeks. Different decisionmakers, I guess.

295 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:04:30pm

re: #285 Racer X

Because I had the money on hand and it saves me a lot in interest. Even in good economic times cash flow can be tough for me to wait between sales. The monthly payment is a big liability. It ends up being a really good thing that I did that. If it was a choice between health insurance and paying my mortgage I would definitely be canceling my insurance right now and probably be turned over to collections for past due bills. Things could be worse.

296 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:06:00pm

I'll admit I became a bit biased after reading this story as well


A Pail of Air (a very short short story)

297 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:06:22pm

re: #269 Killgore Trout

Yeah, since I'm already a month behind they'll cancel me before I can pay this off. Fuck!

What insurance ,, HEALTH !?!?

What company?
I've had the same ploicy for 10 years. Same coverage, same bennie, It hasn't increased 30% in ALL TEN YEARS COMBINED, let alone twice in the last several months

Family plan ,,, myself, wife, kid with dental and eye!

298 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:06:49pm

re: #297 sattv4u2

What plan?

299 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:06:49pm

re: #277 Aceofwhat?

i won't argue with that. here in the states, the alternatives are dirty energy or radically less energy. i'm comfortable calling it our 'least worst' scenario if you are...

I can't say I'm comfortable with it, but at the present time, I don't see many viable alternatives.

300 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:07:03pm

re: #293 swamprat

You payed off a MORTGAGE! You own a HOUSE! If that isn't colateral for $808 it must be tiny. It may gall you, but you aren't without resource.

BINGO

301 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:07:35pm

re: #293 swamprat

Heh, yeah it's quite an accomplishment and I'm pretty proud about it. However, I really had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to pull this off. I'm way behind on bills. My gas is scheduled to be cut off on Monday. I sent the money on Thursday. I hope it gets to them in time.

302 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:08:02pm

re: #297 sattv4u2

Kaiser.

303 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:08:08pm

re: #297 sattv4u2

That's through your employer, though, I think?
It's REALLY different out in the "buy your own health insurance" land.

304 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:08:18pm

re: #299 ryannon

I can't say I'm comfortable with it, but at the present time, I don't see many viable alternatives.


that's my problem too...

305 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:08:43pm

re: #295 Killgore Trout

Because I had the money on hand and it saves me a lot in interest. Even in good economic times cash flow can be tough for me to wait between sales. The monthly payment is a big liability. It ends up being a really good thing that I did that. If it was a choice between health insurance and paying my mortgage I would definitely be canceling my insurance right now and probably be turned over to collections for past due bills. Things could be worse.

It appears you saved yourself some interest money - not sure how much - but now are in danger of losing your health insurance.

I think I would have managed my payments differently, If I was in your shoes.

306 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:08:49pm

re: #298 Obdicut

What plan?

United Health Care PPO

WITH perscription coverage(MedCo) ,, WITH Dental ,, WITH eye care

307 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:09:20pm

re: #305 Racer X

It appears you saved yourself some interest money - not sure how much - but now are in danger of losing your health insurance.

I think I would have managed my payments differently, If I was in your shoes.

a his credit rating

308 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:09:50pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

You sound like a good finincial manager (yes, they cost money) could help you strategize the inconsistent cash flow. Things like cost averaging your gas bill over the course of the year, might be a big benefit, with little cost, for you.

309 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:10:05pm

re: #303 Floral Giraffe

That's through your employer, though, I think?
It's REALLY different out in the "buy your own health insurance" land.

Been There, Done That, Got The T-Shirt(s)

And as another poster said,, he owns a house OUTRIGHT
$800 against the house short term is NOTHING

310 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:11:11pm

I'm thinking that in addition to fixing health care, we should require personal finance management be taught in our schools.

311 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:11:38pm

re: #309 sattv4u2

Been There, Done That, Got The T-Shirt(s)

And as another poster said,, he owns a house OUTRIGHT
$800 against the house short term is NOTHING

not if you can't repay it....who's gonna loan you money if you can't pay your bills already?....besides Fannie Mae?

312 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:11:46pm

BBIAB

313 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:11:50pm

re: #306 sattv4u2

I don't know of a single other person who's rates having climbed steadily in the past decade.

Is what's happening that your employer is covering the rise in your rates?

314 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:11:58pm

re: #309 sattv4u2

True, if he's desperate, he can go to the bank for a $2500 personal loan, which might help out. It'll bite into his interest savings, though.

315 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:12:38pm

OT: Hosting Matters seems to be doing well. They've just passed their 10th anniversary - an eon in this business - and are expanding services at no cost to their customers. A bright spot in an industry that's seen very high burn rates.

316 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:13:26pm

re: #310 Racer X

I'm thinking that in addition to fixing health care, we should require personal finance management be taught in our schools.

...if i may gently suggest that reads a little harshly at this precise moment in the thread...

317 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:13:36pm

re: #313 Obdicut

I don't know of a single other person who's rates having climbed steadily in the past decade.

Is what's happening that your employer is covering the rise in your rates?

Almost certainly.

318 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:14:33pm

re: #313 Obdicut

Grr. I don't know a single other person whose rates haven't climbed steadily over the past decade. PIMF.

319 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:15:14pm

re: #316 Aceofwhat?

...if i may gently suggest that reads a little harshly at this precise moment in the thread...

I agree with you AND with Racer X.

320 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:15:32pm

re: #315 SixDegrees

OT: Hosting Matters seems to be doing well. They've just passed their 10th anniversary - an eon in this business - and are expanding services at no cost to their customers. A bright spot in an industry that's seen very high burn rates.

One of these days I'll get around to switching over..

Meanwhile WOWSERS! Look at this picture...

[Link: gizmodo.com...]

321 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:16:09pm

re: #319 wrenchwench

Me too. It was of course meant as an insult to me but I still can't disagree with the idea.

322 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:16:22pm

re: #313 Obdicut

I don't know of a single other person who's rates having climbed steadily in the past decade.

Is what's happening that your employer is covering the rise in your rates?

I never stated the rates didn't rise. I said they didn't rise 30%,, ESPECIALLY not twice in several months

323 swamprat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:16:41pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

Heh, yeah it's quite an accomplishment and I'm pretty proud about it. However, I really had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to pull this off. I'm way behind on bills. My gas is scheduled to be cut off on Monday. I sent the money on Thursday. I hope it gets to them in time.


When I paid mine off early, it broke me down to $50. No zeros missing from that sentence.
I had no job.

324 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:17:05pm

re: #319 wrenchwench

I agree with you AND with Racer X.

heh. give me a little time. i'll go back to being infuriating before you know it//

325 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:17:21pm

re: #313 Obdicut

Pretty much, his employer has to be covering the increases.
My last year employed by others, my medical and dental were $280 a month. Now, 3 years later, I can't GET dental, or it's so very costly & covers only basic routines, not things like root canals (which is why I would have dental insurance.) and the medical has 1/2 the coverage at $380 a month. I just downgraded the coverage, again, after receiving a 38% increase from Blue Cross.

326 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:17:23pm

re: #323 swamprat

When I paid mine off early, it broke me down to $50. No zeros missing from that sentence.
I had no job.

Heh, I did the same thing.

327 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:17:45pm

re: #322 sattv4u2

Okay. I don't know a single other person's whose rates haven't risen far more than 30% over the past ten years. My rates just raised 39% this year, on top of 27% last year.

328 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:18:29pm

re: #316 Aceofwhat?

...if i may gently suggest that reads a little harshly at this precise moment in the thread...

I am sorry about that.

But I'm a little perplexed. Just a week or two ago KT was crowing about how he was rolling in the dough and was going to pay off his mortgage. Now he cannot pay his health insurance premium, his gas is gonna get turned off, and other bills may not get paid.

And somehow the government needs to fix it. Government being us.

Or did I miss something?

329 swamprat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:18:45pm

re: #321 Killgore Trout

Me too. It was of course meant as an insult to me but I still can't disagree with the idea.

Bull. You own your own home.
Do you know how rare that is?

330 Stanghazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:18:59pm

re: #316 Aceofwhat?

...if i may gently suggest that reads a little harshly at this precise moment in the thread...

Exactly. Lot's of empathy reading through....well maybe not.

331 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:19:49pm

I like you Killgore. I do not mean to insult. Think of it as tough love.

332 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:19:59pm

re: #322 sattv4u2

I never stated the rates didn't rise. I said they didn't rise 30%,, ESPECIALLY not twice in several months

You said:

I've had the same ploicy for 10 years. Same coverage, same bennie, It hasn't increased 30% in ALL TEN YEARS COMBINED

That doesn't seem possible. I'm assuming you're insured through your employer? You may not have noticed the rates going up, but you might have noticed wage increases not keeping pace with inflation, etc.
The cost of health care has risen all over in the last ten years. Dramatically. Freelancers and the self employed-- all those individuals buying coverage, and not under the umbrella of group coverage-- are just the ones that notice it most starkly.

333 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:21:04pm

re: #329 swamprat

Bull. You own your own home.
Do you know how rare that is?

EXTREMELY

KILGORE ,, I implore you ,,

TOMORROW ,,, 1st thing,, be proactive,,,call your health ins co and tell them you are making arrangements

MONDAY am,, 1st thing ,, go to you bank/ mortgage lender and GET the $800,,,,

334 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:21:13pm

re: #329 swamprat

Bull. You own your own home.
Do you know how rare that is?

I've owned four...and could have been more if i wanted to pay off income property....and paid cash for my land in Jamaica...work at the right thing and align priorities....I never even considered anything like dish TV

335 swamprat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:21:39pm

re: #331 Racer X

Do you own a house, outright?

336 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:21:53pm

Sigh, someday I will have health insurance again.

337 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:22:20pm

re: #332 iceweasel

And of all the stupid "industry" moves, I've seen in years, gotta love Blue Cross/Blue Shield raising their rates up to 39% on individuals last month.
Got them a Congressional inquiry. And got a lot more support for Health Insurance reform, from folks like me!

338 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:22:20pm

re: #328 Racer X

a week ago, i read that he scraped the very bottom of the barrel and hit a wonderful milestone.

i don't want to seem an expert on self-employment, having neither the personality nor the stones to wander that frontier, but i think that not having Big Daddy's weekly check to help weather the ups and downs of business makes everything waaay more complicated.

"best laid plans" include a subsection that i believe reads "assuming i make a sale or two this month"...i think...

339 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:22:56pm

re: #335 swamprat

Do you own a house, outright?

Nope. I make mortgage payments every month. And my portion of my health care costs are way more than $400 per month.

340 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:25:19pm

re: #320 Thanos

One of these days I'll get around to switching over..

Meanwhile WOWSERS! Look at this picture...

[Link: gizmodo.com...]

Sweet. I've been following the Blue Marble project at NASA for a few years now; I have an application for their imagery in mind that I might actually get around to writing some day when my free time opens up.

341 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:25:40pm

re: #297 sattv4u2

What insurance ,, HEALTH !?!?

What company?
I've had the same ploicy for 10 years. Same coverage, same bennie, It hasn't increased 30% in ALL TEN YEARS COMBINED, let alone twice in the last several months

Family plan ,,, myself, wife, kid with dental and eye!

I don't believe Killgore has the benefit of an employer benefit plan, seeing as how he's self-employed.

So how his insurance "acts" is going to be a lot different than yours. Plus, it's just possible that your company may have picked up some additional costs on behalf of its employees.

342 swamprat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:25:40pm

re: #334 albusteve

Seems we are similar about payments.

343 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:26:35pm

re: #328 Racer X

I am sorry about that.

But I'm a little perplexed. Just a week or two ago KT was crowing about how he was rolling in the dough and was going to pay off his mortgage. Now he cannot pay his health insurance premium, his gas is gonna get turned off, and other bills may not get paid.

And somehow the government needs to fix it. Government being us.

Or did I miss something?

Empathy?

Despite great expectations and the best intentions, we've all found ourselves up against it at various times in our lives.

Not you?

344 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:29:17pm

re: #332 iceweasel

You may not have noticed the rates going up, but you might have noticed wage increases not keeping pace with inflation,

incorrect ,, i know to the nickle what my monthy is/ was

We had our 1st wage increase in three years this past week. For the two previous years we had bonuses tied to our perfoprmance reviews, but not funded to the degree they were in years past

On my pay stub, it shows EXACTLY how much medical/dental/eye is and EXACTLY what the companies portion is and EXACTLY what my 401 k contribution is and EXACTLY what the company "match" is

11 years ago, when i started with this company, I was paying for my portion $108 and change per pay period (every two weeks)( the company was just above $216,,, they did 66%, I do 33%). Today, $132 and change

345 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:30:10pm

re: #342 swamprat

Seems we are similar about payments.

I would pay off mortgages in $3k chunks....then go without for a while....and I never bought a huge ostentatious place....land and opportunities for me to remodel on my own dime

346 swamprat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:30:44pm

re: #328 Racer X

Big payoff so you gather all your cash and finalize the mortgage. Been there.

347 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:31:12pm

re: #344 sattv4u2

You may not have noticed the rates going up, but you might have noticed wage increases not keeping pace with inflation,

We had our 1st wage increase in three years this past week

That's what I'm talking about sattv. Why do you think that is? Because your employer is eating the rising health care costs.

348 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:31:20pm

re: #343 ryannon

Empathy?

Despite great expectations and the best intentions, we've all found ourselves up against it at various times in our lives.

Not you?

I have been in really bad shape. No money and no job.

349 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:31:47pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

I don't believe Killgore has the benefit of an employer benefit plan, seeing as how he's self-employed.

So how his insurance "acts" is going to be a lot different than yours. Plus, it's just possible that your company may have picked up some additional costs on behalf of its employees.

I was self employed for over 20 years. I know how it works BOTH ways

Still ,,, he owns a HOUSE outright ,,, coming up with $800 shouldn't be that hard. Sorry I seem harsh, but thats the reality

Credit cards,,,,home equity loan ,,, car title loan ,,, some of those suck as options ,, but they ARE options

350 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:32:21pm

re: #347 iceweasel

That's what I'm talking about sattv. Why do you think that is? Because your employer is eating the rising health care costs.

no ,, they are STILL paying their 66% (and me,, 33%) Their increase has been the same as mine

351 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:32:44pm

Killgore - I apologize for jumping on your case. I do not know your situation and I was being unkind. I'm sorry.

352 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:33:01pm

re: #347 iceweasel

That's what I'm talking about sattv. Why do you think that is? Because your employer is eating the rising health care costs.

not if they've kept the same percentage contribution. in raw dollar terms, sure. in percentage terms, he's right.

353 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:33:31pm

re: #350 sattv4u2

no ,, they are STILL paying their 66% (and me,, 33%) Their increase has been the same as mine

gmta...

354 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:33:42pm

re: #349 sattv4u2

I was self employed for over 20 years. I know how it works BOTH ways

Still ,,, he owns a HOUSE outright ,,, coming up with $800 shouldn't be that hard. Sorry I seem harsh, but thats the reality

Credit cards,,,home equity loan ,,, car title loan ,,, some of those suck as options ,, but they ARE options

I maxed out two credit cards one time to by a house, pending the sale of another...worked out nicely

355 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:34:21pm

Whoops, one more industry pro nuclear link that I forgot in the earlier dump

World Nuclear Association
[Link: www.world-nuclear.org...]

356 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:35:23pm

re: #348 Racer X

I have been in really bad shape. No money and no job.

Just like myself and many others here. And I'll bet that you resolved your problems on your own - just like Killgore will.

357 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:35:27pm

re: #352 Aceofwhat?

not if they've kept the same percentage contribution. in raw dollar terms, sure. in percentage terms, he's right.

correct ,, they are paying more dollars,, so am I ,, but our percentages haven't changed ,,

358 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:37:20pm

the ONLY thing thats changed in the last 4 years has been my office visit co-pay ,,,

Been with the company 11 years ,, from years 1-7 ,,, $25 a visit (doctor ,, dentists ,,, eye)

from years 8-present,, $30

359 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:37:32pm

re: #326 Killgore Trout

Heh, I did the same thing.

currently playing on Aceofwhat's guitar...here's the standard version for you.

starts out a little melancholy but then gets better..."look around, round, round"

cheers, good man-

360 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:38:08pm

re: #352 Aceofwhat?

And again, I don't know a single other person who hasn't seen their rates rice precipitously over the past decade. Hell, longer than the past decade.

[Link: www.ahrq.gov...]

The average annual health insurance premium in 2000 was $2,655 for single coverage and $6,772 for family coverage in private-sector establishments, an increase of 33.3 percent and 36.7 percent respectively since 1996, according to new data from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ). Establishments are either businesses in a single location or individual worksites of a larger corporation.

That's 1996 to 2000-- average 30% rate increase.

361 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:38:50pm

re: #351 Racer X

No worries, I'm more pissed off about the situation. I'm pretty secure about my level of education and financial responsibility so it doesn't bother me at all.

362 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:39:15pm

BBIAB ,,, (damn ESPN, ,,,, bothering me at work,,, 'specting me to ,,w ell ,, DO something for them ,,, ,, the nerve!!)

363 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:39:16pm

re: #359 Aceofwhat?

Nice.

364 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:39:41pm

I just got here and sure hope you guys are interesting tonight.

Remote isn't working right... I'd rather not even watch TV than try to watch it without a remote.

365 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:39:48pm
366 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:40:11pm

re: #359 Aceofwhat?

currently playing on Aceofwhat's guitar...here's the standard version for you.

starts out a little melancholy but then gets better..."look around, round, round"

cheers, good man-


[Video]

went all that way, then sat alone in here room

367 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:40:26pm

re: #364 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just got here and sure hope you guys are interesting tonight.

Remote isn't working right... I'd rather not even watch TV than try to watch it without a remote.

. . . resisting the urge . . .

368 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:40:58pm

re: #360 Obdicut

And again, I don't know a single other person who hasn't seen their rates rice precipitously over the past decade. Hell, longer than the past decade.

[Link: www.ahrq.gov...]

That's 1996 to 2000-- average 30% rate increase.

no sweat. i can agree with you and still take sattv4u at his word. i don't know anyone who has managed to stave off increases that well, either...but i don't know everyone.

369 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:42:03pm

re: #360 Obdicut

Exactly, the rate increase may be invisible to sattv, but it's there and in one way or another his employer is eating it. So is he, he just hasn't recognised it.

370 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:42:04pm

re: #364 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just got here and sure hope you guys are interesting tonight.

Remote isn't working right... I'd rather not even watch TV than try to watch it without a remote.

OMGOD! NO TV!
don't kill yourself dude

371 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:42:26pm

re: #363 Killgore Trout

Nice.

well...i just made the bridge sound like hell...so i'm glad you have that version//

372 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:42:35pm

re: #370 albusteve

OMGOD! NO TV!
don't kill yourself dude

I know. Right?

373 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:42:54pm

re: #362 sattv4u2

BBIAB ,,, (damn ESPN, ,,, bothering me at work,,, 'specting me to ,,w ell ,, DO something for them ,,, ,, the nerve!!)

don't be hatin' now

374 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:43:05pm

re: #369 iceweasel

Or it could be an incredibly high-deductible plan or something. Anyway; health insurance premiums have been rising faster than wage increases, much faster, for a long, long time now.

375 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:43:34pm

re: #361 Killgore Trout

No worries, I'm more pissed off about the situation. I'm pretty secure about my level of education and financial responsibility so it doesn't bother me at all.

We got sidetracked on "ability to pay". The outrage is still that they seem to have raised you 60+ percent in a year. A lot of people are not going to withstand that kind of increase.

376 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:43:51pm

re: #369 iceweasel

Exactly, the rate increase may be invisible to sattv, but it's there and in one way or another his employer is eating it. So is he, he just hasn't recognised it.

guy was nice enough to list the exact dollar amounts. they compute. i know how much my employer pays each month, too.

377 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:44:03pm

re: #374 Obdicut

Or it could be an incredibly high-deductible plan or something. Anyway; health insurance premiums have been rising faster than wage increases, much faster, for a long, long time now.

Hells yeah. The projections for what will happen without some HCR are terrifying.

378 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:44:33pm

re: #364 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just got here and sure hope you guys are interesting tonight.

Remote isn't working right... I'd rather not even watch TV than try to watch it without a remote.

that describes it quite nicely for me, too, unless there's a helluva game on...

379 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:46:37pm

re: #376 Aceofwhat?

guy was nice enough to list the exact dollar amounts. they compute. i know how much my employer pays each month, too.

Gah, you know what your employer is paying *for you*. Your employer is also paying for lots of other people, with different starting dates, and different salaries. You don't always know where those increases are affecting your employer by looking at your individual paycheck-- but I assure you, they're happening.

380 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:46:37pm

My wife works in the health insurance biz ... it's an industry that has been demonized by the POTUS. The companies my wife has worked for are not that bad. They have many good medical professionals looking at files, not just bean counters. That is a common misconception.

381 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:47:18pm

In another 50 years, when we are fighting each other for water due to droughts caused by global warming, good health care is not going to matter as much.

382 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:48:14pm

re: #364 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just got here and sure hope you guys are interesting tonight.

Remote isn't working right... I'd rather not even watch TV than try to watch it without a remote.

LOL!
LFBV!
L is for lazy!

383 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:49:37pm

re: #382 Floral Giraffe

What's yer point?

384 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:49:53pm

Health insurance corporations as Evita Peron.

Film @ 11.

/

385 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:50:35pm

re: #380 _RememberTonyC

It's still just rent-seeking, though.

I'm sorry if you feel that's demonization, but health insurance is a naturally broken market. There is an incentive to take payment and then not actually provide coverage-- or to provide coverage as cheaply as possible. I'm not accusing all health insurance companies of doing that to the utmost, because they are staffed by people, who are, you know, human, but the shape of the market rewards inefficiency in payment and efficiency in denying coverage.

386 blueraven  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:50:38pm

re: #365 Thanos

Thnaks for that. I miss him so.

387 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:51:48pm

re: #381 Racer X

In another 50 years, when we are fighting each other for water due to droughts caused by global warming, good health care is not going to matter as much.

or the looming energy meltdown....life will be week to week...buy neglecting our water crisis for 50 years is the grand daddy, head up your ass worst blunder of all

388 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:51:49pm

re: #379 iceweasel

Gah, you know what your employer is paying *for you*. Your employer is also paying for lots of other people, with different starting dates, and different salaries. You don't always know where those increases are affecting your employer by looking at your individual paycheck-- but I assure you, they're happening.

I've been successful enough over time to have access to our financials. We pay the same percentage for everyone across the board, management or not. When we display our share of what we pay on folks' behalf, we show the whole thing. I know what this costs us and I know what we show.

Assuming an employer incorrectly displays the percentage of a benefit that they purport to pay requires more faith than believing the sum of (the converse + sattv4u is telling the truth).

389 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:51:50pm

re: #369 iceweasel

It is also likely that sattv4u works for a large employer, who can shop rates & negotiate with other companies to keep their prices low.
After being let go, I found out that I was not eligible for extended COBRA, because my employer "self insured". They just used the insurance company to process the paperwork. I shouldn't have been suprised, I knew we did that on freight to keep the costs low.

390 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:52:32pm

re: #380 _RememberTonyC

My wife works in the health insurance biz ... it's an industry that has been demonized by the POTUS. The companies my wife has worked for are not that bad. They have many good medical professionals looking at files, not just bean counters. That is a common misconception.

Updung for perspective, but I'm not sure about the demonization. Looks like he's trying to herd another 30 million or so customers their way.

391 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:53:46pm

re: #389 Floral Giraffe

It is also likely that sattv4u works for a large employer, who can shop rates & negotiate with other companies to keep their prices low.
After being let go, I found out that I was not eligible for extended COBRA, because my employer "self insured". They just used the insurance company to process the paperwork. I shouldn't have been suprised, I knew we did that on freight to keep the costs low.

Yeah, exactly-- the larger the employer, the more purchasing power/negotiation power they have. But of course costs have gone up all over, even if sattv himself hasn't noticed it.

392 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:53:47pm

re: #384 Gus 802

Health insurance corporations as Evita Peron.

Film @ 11.

/

She was WAY better looking.

393 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:54:07pm

re: #390 Decatur Deb

Updinged for "updung" :)

394 blueraven  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:54:11pm

re: #386 blueraven

Thnaks for that. I miss him so.

Thanks!

PIMF even on a short post!

395 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:54:32pm

re: #388 Aceofwhat?

Assuming an employer incorrectly displays the percentage of a benefit that they purport to pay

Is not any part of my points.

396 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:55:13pm

re: #381 Racer X

In another 50 years, when we are fighting each other for water due to droughts caused by global warming, good health care is not going to matter as much.

Not to worry: I just did an online tarot concerning the next 50 years and it looks pretty good - provided that we manage to stop, look, listen and....learn.

397 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:55:35pm

re: #389 Floral Giraffe

Worked for a small self insured company (150 employees at the time, not sure of how many were on the plan).

One employee had gastric bypass... fucked the entire system up for the company too. One big hit and BOOM!

398 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:55:43pm

re: #389 Floral Giraffe

It is also likely that sattv4u works for a large employer, who can shop rates & negotiate with other companies to keep their prices low.
After being let go, I found out that I was not eligible for extended COBRA, because my employer "self insured". They just used the insurance company to process the paperwork. I shouldn't have been suprised, I knew we did that on freight to keep the costs low.

interesting bit, the 'self insured' part. i didn't know that was a COBRA disqualifier.

but i wholly agree about the other part. our last 5 years' increases have been something on the order of 4%, 3%, 8%, 11%, and 9%, IIRC.

399 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:55:49pm

re: #381 Racer X

In another 50 years, when we are fighting each other for water due to droughts caused by global warming, good health care is not going to matter as much.

No snark. I'm being dead serious.

400 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:56:02pm

re: #390 Decatur Deb

Updung?

Nice.

401 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:56:24pm

re: #385 Obdicut

It's still just rent-seeking, though.

I'm sorry if you feel that's demonization, but health insurance is a naturally broken market. There is an incentive to take payment and then not actually provide coverage-- or to provide coverage as cheaply as possible. I'm not accusing all health insurance companies of doing that to the utmost, because they are staffed by people, who are, you know, human, but the shape of the market rewards inefficiency in payment and efficiency in denying coverage.

insurance reform is necessary. i don't deny that. but the POTUS' tone towards the industry is tantamount to demonization. It's just the Prez's style. It's what he does. Others have suffered similarly. But let's be honest about the intent of the President. One reason I like Joe Lieberman is that he is representing his constituency (Connecticut) instead of drinking the kool-ade. We'll agree to disagree.

402 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:56:42pm

re: #392 Floral Giraffe

She was WAY better looking.

Looks aren't everything.

Especially in her case.

403 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:57:01pm

re: #389 Floral Giraffe

It is also likely that sattv4u works for a large employer, who can shop rates & negotiate with other companies to keep their prices low.
After being let go, I found out that I was not eligible for extended COBRA, because my employer "self insured". They just used the insurance company to process the paperwork. I shouldn't have been suprised, I knew we did that on freight to keep the costs low.

Lots of employers do that.
The employer from which I'm retired is "self-insured", but the pool is so large they actually have 3 or 4 different options, managed by different companies, that we can choose from.

The Roi's company is also self-insured. I put him on my insurance years ago, even though he has insurance through his employer and they pay almost all the cost of his premium, so that we could insure he would stay covered at a reasonable cost when he retired - his company does not offer insurance to their retirees, my employer does.

404 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:57:27pm

re: #369 iceweasel

Exactly, the rate increase may be invisible to sattv, but it's there and in one way or another his employer is eating it. So is he, he just hasn't recognised it.

Please don't patronize me with the "he just hasn't recognized it'

I told you almost to the penny what I and my ermployer pays now and 11 years ago. Prior to that, I weas self employed. I can tell you almost to the penny what i paid per month then (BC/BS) and almost to the penny what i kicked in for my employees. Give me a couple of days to go through some old files and i will tell yiou TO the penny what it was

405 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:57:28pm

re: #387 albusteve

or the looming energy meltdown...life will be week to week...buy neglecting our water crisis for 50 years is the grand daddy, head up your ass worst blunder of all

better get that desalination tech in high gear...i linked to a cool plant in australia the other day...CDI (captive deionization) desalination.

406 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:58:47pm

re: #395 iceweasel

Is not any part of my points.

"You don't always know where those increases are affecting your employer by looking at your individual paycheck-- but I assure you, they're happening"

means that. Perhaps you intended to mean something else?

407 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:59:01pm

re: #401 _RememberTonyC

insurance reform is necessary. i don't deny that. but the POTUS' tone towards the industry is tantamount to demonization. It's just the Prez's style. It's what he does. Others have suffered similarly. But let's be honest about the intent of the President. One reason I like Joe Lieberman is that he is representing his constituency (Connecticut) instead of drinking the kool-ade. We'll agree to disagree.

Suffered? Who's suffering here? The health insurance companies?

408 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:59:20pm

re: #386 blueraven

I miss him, too! I was looking forward to more thought from him regarding genetic memory. I have has a few experiences in my life where I thought that was the case.

409 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:59:33pm

re: #374 Obdicut

Or it could be an incredibly high-deductible plan or something. Anyway; health insurance premiums have been rising faster than wage increases, much faster, for a long, long time now.

The family deductbale has NOt changed (my choice) in 10 years

the onlt thing (deductible) that HAS changed is perscription drugs. That increased from $500 (family) $250 (individual) to $750 (family) $400 (individual) two years ago ( start of 2008)

410 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 5:59:53pm

re: #395 iceweasel

Is not any part of my points.

oh, you said it in #369 too. so...twice.

411 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:00:13pm

KT
for what it's worth, I feel bad for your situation...I've never actually been down to seeds and stems, close but I did it to myself and anyway there were opportunities I had to pursue that I didn't want to...more or less self inflicted...I hope we turn this economy around and the money rains in for you

412 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:00:19pm

OK, I'm tired of this crap, once and for all.

Everyone here needs to send me credentials at once proving that they really are members in good standing of the order of Squamata, suborder Lacertilia. Birth certificates showing at least one lizard parent accepted. Pictures of your movable eyelids will not suffice, nor will nicknames like "Gecko" or "Gila Monster".

Please get this to me today to avoid interruptions of grammar checking.

413 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:00:22pm

re: #407 Gus 802

Suffered? Who's suffering here? The health insurance companies?

"suffered" from the standpoint of being on the wrong end of Obama's rhetorical barbs.

414 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:00:30pm

re: #388 Aceofwhat?

We pay the same percentage for everyone across the board, management or not.

BINGO ,, same with my company

415 Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:00:33pm

re: #409 sattv4u2

That is absolutely wonderful for you, but it is incredibly anomalous. The average rates have been increasing for years and years and years, faster than wages have.

416 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:01:00pm

re: #408 prairiefire

I miss him, too! I was looking forward to more thought from him regarding genetic memory. I have has a few experiences in my life where I thought that was the case.

I get dejavu often. It's kinda weird.

417 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:01:16pm

re: #404 sattv4u2

Please don't patronize me with the "he just hasn't recognized it'

You're not being patronised.
You are missing the point though.
Health care costs have risen framatically over the last ten years you've been employed. Fact.
In one way or another, your employer is eating that cost. Also fact.
You're not recognising this because you keep insisting that the whole story is about the percentage you pay vs the percentage your employer does. It isn't.

418 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:01:32pm

re: #409 sattv4u2

The family deductbale has NOt changed (my choice) in 10 years

the onlt thing (deductible) that HAS changed is perscription drugs. That increased from $500 (family) $250 (individual) to $750 (family) $400 (individual) two years ago ( start of 2008)

satt -
take a look at that post.
It may be time for you to back away a bit and calm down.

419 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:01:38pm

re: #412 Cato the Elder

heh. i thought we did that in the lounge last night;)

420 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:02:24pm

re: #375 Decatur Deb

We got sidetracked on "ability to pay". The outrage is still that they seem to have raised you 60+ percent in a year. A lot of people are not going to withstand that kind of increase.

Yeah, that's my thought too. It's a harsh reality for the opponents of healthcare reform. They hate to hear these stories because it disrupts their political narrative so I understand the attacks. I think for most small entrepreneurs in Oregon this is close to catastrophic. If I hadn't paid off my mortgage recently it certainly would have been for me. Even I'm starting to think that self employment might not be a realistic option anymore. If the increases keep up like this and reform doesn't pass then self employment just isn't viable.

421 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:02:31pm

re: #413 _RememberTonyC

"suffered" from the standpoint of being on the wrong end of Obama's rhetorical barbs.

Pardon my French but tough fucking shit for the insurance companies. They'll get off lightly and will profit from Obama's HCR in the long run. I won't fall for this "good cop" and "bad cop" routine with the health insurance companies now playing the good cop.

422 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:02:47pm

re: #418 reine.de.tout

satt -
take a look at that post.
It may be time for you to back away a bit and calm down.

calm or excited ,, i'm a LOUSY typists ,, always was,, always will be

423 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:03:01pm

re: #410 Aceofwhat?

oh, you said it in #369 too. so...twice.

Nope.

424 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:03:28pm

In fact, I'm gonna go on record right now. California will have an earthquake within the next few weeks. I've been feeling it.

425 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:03:33pm

re: #403 reine.de.tout

Lots of employers do that.
The employer from which I'm retired is "self-insured", but the pool is so large they actually have 3 or 4 different options, managed by different companies, that we can choose from.

The Roi's company is also self-insured. I put him on my insurance years ago, even though he has insurance through his employer and they pay almost all the cost of his premium, so that we could insure he would stay covered at a reasonable cost when he retired - his company does not offer insurance to their retirees, my employer does.

what's Roi?...I can't stand it anymore

426 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:03:37pm

re: #417 iceweasel

You're not being patronised.
You are missing the point though.
Health care costs have risen framatically over the last ten years you've been employed. Fact.
In one way or another, your employer is eating that cost. Also fact.
You're not recognising this because you keep insisting that the whole story is about the percentage you pay vs the percentage your employer does. It isn't.

not fact. and if it's not fact for me, it's possible that it's also not fact for him.

we do not have measurable health costs that are not displayed to employees. period. no wiggling.

427 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:03:58pm

re: #418 reine.de.tout

satt -
take a look at that post.
It may be time for you to back away a bit and calm down.

Whoa. Yeah. Seconded. Sattv, why don't we take this up later?

428 Windhorse  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:04:11pm

Kilgore, congrats on paying off the mortgage.... you won't regret it no matter what happens. I do wish you well on getting through this tough period.... but it too will pass.

429 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:04:24pm

re: #420 Killgore Trout

Yeah, that's my thought too. It's a harsh reality for the opponents of healthcare reform. They hate to hear these stories because it disrupts their political narrative so I understand the attacks. I think for most small entrepreneurs in Oregon this is close to catastrophic. If I hadn't paid off my mortgage recently it certainly would have been for me. Even I'm starting to think that self employment might not be a realistic option anymore. If the increases keep up like this and reform doesn't pass then self employment just isn't viable.

Killgore - I'm going to suggest that you call them and talk to them.
That increase just doesn't sound right.
They may have made an error, and if so, you need to get it straightened out, they aren't going to notice it on their own.

At the very least, you need to ask them why these increases have been so substantial and what sort of increases do they envision for the future.

430 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:05:23pm

re: #407 Gus 802

Suffered? Who's suffering here? The health insurance companies?

You know, it's like the old puzzle about who shaves the barber. Who will insure the insurance companies and pay for their suffering?//

431 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:05:29pm

re: #428 Windhorse

Thanks.

432 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:05:32pm

re: #425 albusteve

what's Roi?...I can't stand it anymore

The Roi (King) is my husband, of course!
What else would it be?

433 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:05:54pm

re: #423 iceweasel

Nope.

then where on the financial statements would there be these hidden, huge costs that aren't displayed to the employees?

(hint. the question is rhetorical.)

434 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:06:54pm

re: #417 iceweasel

You're not being patronised.
You are missing the point though.
Health care costs have risen framatically over the last ten years you've been employed. Fact.
In one way or another, your employer is eating that cost. Also fact.
You're not recognising this because you keep insisting that the whole story is about the percentage you pay vs the percentage your employer does. It isn't.


Okay , then if my and my employers percentage that we pay to the ins co's has stayed the same this past decade (1/3rd to 2/3rd) please tell me how I'm not recognizing how they are somehow "eating it"

I pay a buck ,, they pay two

If the premium increases by 9 cents, i now pay $1.03, they pay $2.06

435 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:07:35pm

re: #427 iceweasel

Whoa. Yeah. Seconded. Sattv, why don't we take this up later?

see 422

436 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:07:36pm

re: #412 Cato the Elder

OK, I'm tired of this crap, once and for all.

Everyone here needs to send me credentials at once proving that they really are members in good standing of the order of Squamata, suborder Lacertilia. Birth certificates showing at least one lizard parent accepted. Pictures of your movable eyelids will not suffice, nor will nicknames like "Gecko" or "Gila Monster".

Please get this to me today to avoid interruptions of grammar checking.

There were and are a couple of snakes in my family.

Will that do?

437 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:07:50pm

re: #412 Cato the Elder

OK, I'm tired of this crap, once and for all.

Everyone here needs to send me credentials at once proving that they really are members in good standing of the order of Squamata, suborder Lacertilia. Birth certificates showing at least one lizard parent accepted. Pictures of your movable eyelids will not suffice, nor will nicknames like "Gecko" or "Gila Monster".

Please get this to me today to avoid interruptions of grammar checking.

"Parent" I was carefully crafted by the Egyptian. How 'bout I just send a serial-numbered scale? More Lizard than Lizard, that's my motto.

438 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:07:53pm

re: #432 reine.de.tout

The Roi (King) is my husband, of course!
What else would it be?

I figured that but the letters are a mystery to me...is that a NO cultural thing?, the little guy in the cake?

439 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:07:56pm

re: #429 reine.de.tout

I also want to ask them about projections for future increases. Kaiser is a non profit company so I don't think they're soaking me. It's just the cost of the service. Maybe I'll have to think about getting a real job if self employment isn't possible anymore.

440 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:08:11pm

re: #421 Gus 802

Pardon my French but tough fucking shit for the insurance companies. They'll get off lightly and will profit from Obama's HCR in the long run. I won't fall for this "good cop" and "bad cop" routine with the health insurance companies now playing the good cop.

insurance is almost like lawyers .... we hate the concept until we need their help. i never said the insurance companies were perfect. they're a necessary evil in our society. but i have had mostly good experiences with them. and i know many good people who work in the business and they try to do the right thing for their customers. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but there is another side to the story.

441 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:08:12pm

re: #430 iceweasel

You know, it's like the old puzzle about who shaves the barber. Who will insure the insurance companies and pay for their suffering?//

That would be a reinsurance company.

Now I must compose myself for I am deeply saddened by the hurt that the insurance companies are being put through with the rhetorical attacks. They are truly heroes and true American patriots.

Let us sing the victory song of Aetna and Cigna! Saviors of our nation!

//

442 Stanghazi  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:08:54pm

re: #434 sattv4u2

Okay , then if my and my employers percentage that we pay to the ins co's has stayed the same this past decade (1/3rd to 2/3rd) please tell me how I'm not recognizing how they are somehow "eating it"

I pay a buck ,, they pay two

If the premium increases by 9 cents, i now pay $1.03, they pay $2.06

satt, you are one of the lucky ones! It's a good thing. But it's hard to ignore someone like Floral or Killgore, or myself - self employed, who are struggling to keep coverage.

443 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:09:23pm

re: #416 Racer X

OK, I'm going to bore everybody, but anyway...We toured an old fashioned mill when I was in 4th grade. It was like a history reenactment setting with rough hewn log wall living quarters as part of the mill. When I smelled the wood and looked at the little bed and cradle, I just knew, that's my bed, that's my cradle. When we saw the big cogs of the mill, I thought, don't let straw get caught in the cogs, the cats will chase it and get smooshed.
I bought some freshly ground corn meal and it smelled like my most favorite thing on earth. It got moldy in the fridge before my mom used it for anything and i sobbed, I was so upset. I was in a funk, a type of depression for a couple of weeks from the emotional impact if a field trip to a mill!?
When my grandma visited, I told her about how I felt because no one else was understanding. She said our ancestors in - County owned a mill.

444 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:09:38pm

re: #433 Aceofwhat?

then where on the financial statements would there be these hidden, huge costs that aren't displayed to the employees?

(hint. the question is rhetorical.)

Okay. Any hiring freezes, wage freezes, layoffs, changes in coverage, denial of coverage, failure of wage increases ot keep pace with inflation, that's all totally coincidental and all the reports about the rising cost of healthcare are a seekrit socialist plot.

Yeah.

445 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:09:50pm

re: #442 Stanley Sea

satt, you are one of the lucky ones! It's a good thing. But it's hard to ignore someone like Floral or Killgore, or myself - self employed, who are struggling to keep coverage.

you mean...you believe him? weird.

446 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:11:12pm

re: #412 Cato the Elder

OK, I'm tired of this crap, once and for all.

Everyone here needs to send me credentials at once proving that they really are members in good standing of the order of Squamata, suborder Lacertilia. Birth certificates showing at least one lizard parent accepted. Pictures of your movable eyelids will not suffice, nor will nicknames like "Gecko" or "Gila Monster".

Please get this to me today to avoid interruptions of grammar checking.

Um, is it OK to put Charles on my lizard nirth certificate?

447 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:11:12pm

re: #442 Stanley Sea

satt, you are one of the lucky ones! It's a good thing. But it's hard to ignore someone like Floral or Killgore, or myself - self employed, who are struggling to keep coverage.

You must have missed the posts where i told the room that I was self employed for DECADES prior to taking the job I have had for the past 11 years

Ages 19-45 ,,,, self employed (ages 30-45 ,,also had employees)

Ages 45-present (56) work for a company

448 darthstar  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:11:54pm

re: #412 Cato the Elder

OK, I'm tired of this crap, once and for all.

Everyone here needs to send me credentials at once proving that they really are members in good standing of the order of Squamata, suborder Lacertilia. Birth certificates showing at least one lizard parent accepted. Pictures of your movable eyelids will not suffice, nor will nicknames like "Gecko" or "Gila Monster".

Please get this to me today to avoid interruptions of grammar checking.

Fine...here's my goddamn birth certificate...now where's yours?

And if you call me a no-good son-of-a-bug-eater, there will be hell to pay.

449 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:12:48pm

re: #414 sattv4u2

We pay the same percentage for everyone across the board, management or not.

BINGO ,, same with my company

I am under my wife's plan... they just changed things to make it more fair for single employees and stuff... It is fair. But we got RAPED.

450 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:13:01pm

re: #441 Gus 802

Let us sing the victory song of Aetna and Cigna! Saviors of our nation

Yeah ,, those evil godless heathens! lets teach them a lesson. Tell you what,, 1st thing tomorrow, cancel ALL your insurances ,,,, home owners ,,, auto ,,, health ,,,, thats the ticket

(and btw ,, i hope it's me that you have a fender bender with ,,, i want another house!!)

451 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:13:01pm

re: #444 iceweasel

Okay. Any hiring freezes, wage freezes, layoffs, changes in coverage, denial of coverage, failure of wage increases ot keep pace with inflation, that's all totally coincidental and all the reports about the rising cost of healthcare are a seekrit socialist plot.

Yeah.

nothing in that list is related to the cost of employer-provided insurance, and how those costs are displayed publicly to employees vs. privately to officers and directors of a company.

perhaps his insurance company is keeping their rates low by engaging in the practices you list. that is unrelated to the question of whether the employer contribution that he sees is roughly equivalent to what they actually pay on his or anyone else's behalf.

stay on target...stay on target...almost there...

452 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:13:24pm

re: #448 darthstar

That's great!

453 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:13:28pm

re: #441 Gus 802

That would be a reinsurance company.

Now I must compose myself for I am deeply saddened by the hurt that the insurance companies are being put through with the rhetorical attacks. They are truly heroes and true American patriots.

Let us sing the victory song of Aetna and Cigna! Saviors of our nation!

//

It's true. Poor insurance companies. You know who else I feel just terrible for-- those poor AIG employees. Just shocking.//

454 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:13:31pm

re: #438 albusteve

There's cake?

455 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:14:11pm

re: #436 ryannon

There were and are a couple of snakes in my family.

Will that do?

sssssslytherin?

456 ryannon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:14:16pm

re: #443 prairiefire

Nice.

I know and have heard many similar stories.

There's so much about ourselves that we've forgotten.

457 darthstar  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:15:01pm

re: #455 reine.de.tout

ssslytherin?

Am I wrong to cheer for Ravenclaw in every Harry Potter movie? They have the cutest girls.

458 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:15:06pm

re: #439 Killgore Trout

I was offered a part time job, by my accountant, so I could join his insurance pool. I have 2 friends that I know work part time, so they can buy into their employers insurance plans. One works at Starbucks!

459 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:15:12pm

re: #453 iceweasel

It's true. Poor insurance companies. You know who else I feel just terrible for-- those poor AIG employees. Just shocking.//

AIG should apply for sainthood. Along with Bank of America. They're truly deserve it. Maybe we can start with Saint Quants.

/

460 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:15:20pm

TONY C ,,,,
North Carolina / Duke ,on right now, why do I have to be involved ,,,,, can't your guys handle it !?!?!?

461 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:15:46pm

re: #459 Gus 802

AIG should apply for sainthood. Along with Bank of America. They're truly deserve it. Maybe we can start with Saint Quants.

/

Woops.

462 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:17:02pm

re: #460 sattv4u2

TONY C ,,,
North Carolina / Duke ,on right now, why do I have to be involved ,,, can't your guys handle it !?!?!?

ha! i was just going to warn you not to screw up the game while attending to the thread...priorities, man!!!

463 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:17:13pm

re: #357 sattv4u2

correct ,, they are paying more dollars,, so am I ,, but our percentages haven't changed ,,

That tells us nothing, what you need to know is how much more money are they paying for healthcare vs. their own increase in profitability, if any. If it costs them more to insure you, they fact that it is proportionally costing you more too is not an incentive to pay you more when there is no more money to pay you with. It's a net loss for both of you, and pits your interests against each other.

The current healthcare landscape is riddled with parasitic rent-seekers.

464 WindHorse  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:17:17pm

hey Kilgore.... do you repair all stringed instruments or just one type?

465 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:18:23pm

re: #457 darthstar

Am I wrong to cheer for Ravenclaw in every Harry Potter movie? They have the cutest girls.

that's one of the most sensible things you've ever said//

466 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:18:58pm

re: #457 darthstar

Am I wrong to cheer for Ravenclaw in every Harry Potter movie? They have the cutest girls.

I think cheering for Ravenclaw is fine, but I am extremely disapproving of the whole Hogwarts house system to begin with. Very bad education philosophy.

467 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:19:18pm

re: #457 darthstar

Am I wrong to cheer for Ravenclaw in every Harry Potter movie? They have the cutest girls.

yeah, but only Gryffindor has Harry!

468 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:19:21pm

re: #420 Killgore Trout

....snip Even I'm starting to think that self employment might not be a realistic option anymore. If the increases keep up like this and reform doesn't pass then self employment just isn't viable.

You're illustrating the way our current boondoggle crushes out entrepreneurs. Only a dedicated socialist would want to supplant that.

469 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:19:25pm

re: #462 Aceofwhat?

ha! i was just going to warn you not to screw up the game while attending to the thread...priorities, man!!!

I know ,,, I know ,,,,

and from Thursday thru Sunday it's going to be NUTS here (at work0

ACC Tourney ,, and backing up whatever ESPN decides to throw our way

470 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:19:26pm

re: #460 sattv4u2

TONY C ,,,
North Carolina / Duke ,on right now, why do I have to be involved ,,, can't your guys handle it !?!?!?

sorry Sat .... I am actually watching a horrible NBA game right now ...

471 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:19:30pm

re: #451 Aceofwhat?

nothing in that list is related to the cost of employer-provided insurance, and how those costs are displayed publicly to employees vs. privately to officers and directors of a company.

perhaps his insurance company is keeping their rates low by engaging in the practices you list. that is unrelated to the question of whether the employer contribution that he sees is roughly equivalent to what they actually pay on his or anyone else's behalf.

stay on target...stay on target...almost there...

I'll try to keep them off of you, but you'll have to hurry up with the shots.

/Star Wars geekage

472 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:19:42pm

re: #463 goddamnedfrank

the company's net profit is both arithmetically and logically unrelated to whether the amount they display to their employees is roughly equivalent to the actual amount they contribute on their employees' behalf.

473 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:20:28pm

re: #470 _RememberTonyC

sorry Sat ... I am actually watching a horrible NBA game right now ...

n/p ,,,,

And on that ,, i'm out ,, gotta set up a few things for the overnight person ,, all so I can come back for another fun filled day at work tomorrow

474 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:20:38pm

Couple of random points:

1) Comparing home/auto insurance to health insurance is an "analogy fail" for one simple reason: you can choose whether or not you want to own a car or a home. You can not choose whether or not you want to own a human body.

2) Would a company be more profitable if it wasn't burdened with the cost of health insurance for its employees? If you had the choice of basing your business in a place with single-payer health insurance vs a place where you'd have to eat the costs yourself, what would you choose?

475 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:20:53pm

re: #472 Aceofwhat?

btw ,, thanks

476 swamprat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:21:12pm

re: #466 SanFranciscoZionist

Very bad education philosophy.

"We used to hang the students by their thumbs over here. I do so miss the screamin'"

477 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:21:42pm

re: #464 WindHorse

hey Kilgore... do you repair all stringed instruments or just one type?

Just violins, violas and cellos. I used to do some guitar work but there just isn't enough money in it.

478 darthstar  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:22:00pm

re: #467 reine.de.tout

yeah, but only Gryffindor has Harry!

After reading all the books, and by the time the third movie came out, I got to the point where I was starting to side with the Death Eaters. Gryffindor came across as some kind of elite glee club. Slytherin kids probably had the best dope though.

479 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:22:20pm

re: #473 sattv4u2

n/p ,,,

And on that ,, i'm out ,, gotta set up a few things for the overnight person ,, all so I can come back for another fun filled day at work tomorrow


don't accidentally patch the pr0n from Thailand into the EWTN feed ...

480 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:22:38pm

re: #475 sattv4u2

btw ,, thanks

heh. we're not often near the subject of intelligent business unit management...it's nice to be swinging dead center in my wheelhouse for once...

481 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:23:07pm

re: #477 Killgore Trout

Just violins, violas and cellos. I used to do some guitar work but there just isn't enough money in it.

Do you buy/ sell them, or just fix/

(reason i'm asking ,, my son has an old Old (read ,, SHITTY) cello and we're thinking of getting him a new(er) one

482 WindHorse  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:23:11pm

Sorry - I am jumping between threads.... I have an antique violin that my Grandfather gave me when I was in High School (I am now 53). I was wondering if you'd be interested in looking at it and telling me if it is worth fixing?

483 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:24:03pm

bbiab

484 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:24:26pm

re: #479 _RememberTonyC

don't accidentally patch the pr0n from Thailand into the EWTN feed ...

Don't even have to rely on Thailand ,,,, our Denver Teleport uplinks half a dozen US porn channels ,,,

485 WindHorse  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:24:42pm

re: #482 WindHorse

I live in the Seattle area.....

486 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:25:07pm

re: #485 WindHorse

I live in the Seattle area...

you're telling yourself that !?!?!

/

487 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:25:31pm

re: #478 darthstar

Slytherin kids probably had the best dope though.

If yer into meth maybe. If you want to party with the green and leafy crowd then you hang out with the Hufflepuff kids.

488 WindHorse  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:25:38pm

re: #486 sattv4u2

I have a short memory..... :)

489 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:26:30pm

The incredible Dianne Reeves for your Saturday:

490 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:26:34pm

re: #484 sattv4u2

Don't even have to rely on Thailand ,,, our Denver Teleport uplinks half a dozen US porn channels ,,,

updinged just for the fucking hell of it. You guys have all the fun

491 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:26:57pm

re: #436 ryannon

There were and are a couple of snakes in my family.

Will that do?

We may be able to grandfather you in.

re: #437 Decatur Deb

"Parent" I was carefully crafted by the Egyptian. How 'bout I just send a serial-numbered scale? More Lizard than Lizard, that's my motto.

First you turn out not to be a girl lizard, now you tell me you're a skin-job. We may have problems.

re: #446 Floral Giraffe

Um, is it OK to put Charles on my lizard nirth certificate?

Charles is your daddy? I'll never downding you again! [grovels sycophantically]

492 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:26:57pm

re: #470 _RememberTonyC

Nets?

493 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:27:36pm

re: #481 sattv4u2

I usually buy cellos at actions in London, fix them up and then consign them at shops. I might not be able to help you directly but I might be able to recommend somebody in you area that might be semi-honest. Violin dealers are crooked bastards.

494 WindHorse  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:27:41pm

Kilgore, if you are interested, I have switched my email "on"......

495 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:28:17pm

re: #492 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nets?

yes .... vs the Knicks ... it's the hoop fan's equivalent of being a crack addict.

496 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:29:35pm

re: #493 Killgore Trout

I usually buy cellos at actions in London, fix them up and then consign them at shops. I might not be able to help you directly but I might be able to recommend somebody in you area that might be semi-honest. Violin dealers are crooked bastards.

Thanks ,,,, Atlanta or east of it ( I live about 25 miles straight east , almost halfway between Atlanta and Athens GA)

497 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:30:05pm

re: #491 Cato the Elder

Charles is your daddy? I'll never downding you again! [grovels sycophantically]

I don't know that you've ever down dinged me at all!
Isn't Charles ALL of our Lizard's Daddy's?
(Or should that be Daddies? I'll blame the cold medicine!)

498 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:30:38pm

re: #495 _RememberTonyC

Oh, hell. Sportscenter diagrammed the Nets this morning.

They're paying those fuckers? One guy (blue shirt) comes out with rebound between four (white shirt/Nets) players.

They fucking stood there and watched him get the rebound!

Just awful.

499 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:32:53pm

re: #498 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, hell. Sportscenter diagrammed the Nets this morning.

They're paying those fuckers? One guy (blue shirt) comes out with rebound between four (white shirt/Nets) players.

They fucking stood there and watched him get the rebound!

Just awful.

The Nets coach (Kiki) is a good friend of mine. Great guy ... friend of Rudy Giuliani. And since I hate the Knicks, it's fun watching Kiki win one for a change!

500 darthstar  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:33:10pm

re: #498 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Probably trying to get traded to the LA Clippers.

501 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:35:30pm

re: #499 _RememberTonyC

The Nets are winning. Ain't watching TV. Simply guessed since you said bad basketball you were watching the Nets.

Kiki doesn't seem to be doing to hot there. What's the problem?

502 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:35:54pm

re: #499 _RememberTonyC

The Nets coach (Kiki) is a good friend of mine. Great guy ... friend of Rudy Giuliani. And since I hate the Knicks, it's fun watching Kiki win one for a change!

Can you PLEASE do something about Dick Vitale ,,, Thank God I can pot down the announcers and listen to only natural sound!

503 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:36:46pm

re: #478 darthstar

After reading all the books, and by the time the third movie came out, I got to the point where I was starting to side with the Death Eaters. Gryffindor came across as some kind of elite glee club. Slytherin kids probably had the best dope though.

Harry Potter from an adult POV.
Interesting.

504 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:40:04pm

re: #503 reine.de.tout

Did you ever see this...

Hermione grows up...

505 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:40:18pm

re: #501 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Nets are winning. Ain't watching TV. Simply guessed since you said bad basketball you were watching the Nets.

Kiki doesn't seem to be doing to hot there. What's the problem?

He has some good pieces to build on, but they got off to an 0-18 start and their season was screwed. Kiki doesn't want to coach, he wants to be the general manager again. But his bosses told him to fire the coach earlier this season, coach the team himself, and prove the guys he drafted could win games. So far, epic fail. Kiki will be working elsewhere next year.

506 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:41:47pm

re: #502 sattv4u2

Can you PLEASE do something about Dick Vitale ,,, Thank God I can pot down the announcers and listen to only natural sound!

I love Dickie V ... he's a great man. But the mute button should be renamed in his honor

507 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:42:25pm

re: #505 _RememberTonyC

Kiki will be working elsewhere next year.

no gauruntee he'll have a job anywhere ,, not after with this disaster on his resume

508 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:42:50pm

re: #506 _RememberTonyC

I love Dickie V ... he's a great man. But the mute button should be renamed in his honor

So should the foam brick I throw at the screen!

509 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:44:13pm

re: #507 sattv4u2

Kiki will be working elsewhere next year.

no gauruntee he'll have a job anywhere ,, not after with this disaster on his resume


Kiki is a quality person. The league office could hire him. Or he can go back to broadcasting.

510 DaddyLawBucks  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:44:51pm

You just have to wonder why health insurance companies would pick this moment to raise their rates........

511 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:46:25pm

re: #510 daddylawbucks

You just have to wonder why health insurance companies would pick this moment to raise their rates...

The same reason why any company are raising their 'rates"

512 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:46:38pm

re: #496 sattv4u2

If I were you I'd try Williams Gengakki Violins in Atlanta, I don't know him personally so I can't vouch for anything but it is a serious shop.

513 darthstar  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:47:06pm

re: #510 daddylawbucks

You just have to wonder why health insurance companies would pick this moment to raise their rates...

Because they can.

514 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:47:21pm

re: #512 Killgore Trout

If I were you I'd try Williams Gengakki Violins in Atlanta, I don't know him personally so I can't vouch for anything but it is a serious shop.

Thanks ,,,, I'll give it a shot

"Hey Willie ,, the TROUT sent me !!"

515 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:47:57pm

Nets win

Now they're 7-55

516 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:48:42pm

re: #515 _RememberTonyC

Nets win

Now they're 7-55

Cool ,,, if they go undefeated the rest of the way ,,,,,,,,

517 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:48:43pm

re: #511 sattv4u2

The same reason why any company are raising their 'rates"

Same reason why credit card companies jacked interest rates up to 30 percent just before the "Fair Credit Card Act" (or whatever they called this fucking train wreck) passed.

518 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:49:17pm

re: #517 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Same reason why credit card companies jacked interest rates up to 30 percent just before the "Fair Credit Card Act" (or whatever they called this fucking train wreck) passed.

Keep one step ahead of the sherrif!

519 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:50:35pm

re: #497 Floral Giraffe

I don't know that you've ever down dinged me at all!
Isn't Charles ALL of our Lizard's Daddy's?
(Or should that be Daddies? I'll blame the cold medicine!)

No grammar questions until you send me your nirth certifikit!

520 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:50:55pm

re: #516 sattv4u2

Cool ,,, if they go undefeated the rest of the way ,,,

they'll still miss the playoffs by 15 games.

521 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:50:55pm

re: #517 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Same reason why credit card companies jacked interest rates up to 30 percent just before the "Fair Credit Card Act" (or whatever they called this fucking train wreck) passed.

Yeah, I suspect that they see that the end might be near and they're going to milk the public as much as they can before it all ends.

522 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:52:41pm

re: #517 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Same reason why credit card companies jacked interest rates up to 30 percent just before the "Fair Credit Card Act" (or whatever they called this fucking train wreck) passed.

seriously ,, on that topic ,,,each time I got a notice from a credit card or store card (think Home Depot) company saying "due to unforseenn,, blah blah,,, your rate has been increased ,,, blah blah' I called them the next day and told them if I did not get my old rate back I wanted to IMMEDIATLY cancel my card,,,
in 4 out of 5 cases they did it ,, in the other ,, i cancelled (LOWES)

523 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:53:32pm

re: #521 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I suspect that they see that the end might be near and they're going to milk the public as much as they can before it all ends.

could be ,, but there are rewmedies ,, see 522

524 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 6:53:48pm

re: #523 sattv4u2

could be ,, but there are rewmedies ,, see 522

pimf

525 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:05:20pm

"District 9" on the DVD. It's good.

526 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:59:40pm

re: #344 sattv4u2

You may not have noticed the rates going up, but you might have noticed wage increases not keeping pace with inflation,

incorrect ,, i know to the nickle what my monthy is/ was

We had our 1st wage increase in three years this past week. For the two previous years we had bonuses tied to our perfoprmance reviews, but not funded to the degree they were in years past

On my pay stub, it shows EXACTLY how much medical/dental/eye is and EXACTLY what the companies portion is and EXACTLY what my 401 k contribution is and EXACTLY what the company "match" is

11 years ago, when i started with this company, I was paying for my portion $108 and change per pay period (every two weeks)( the company was just above $216,,, they did 66%, I do 33%). Today, $132 and change

I've worked for the same company for ten years.

Premiums? Tripled. Coverage? Halved. Wage increase? Oh, about a dollar. Total. For ten years.

527 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 7:59:42pm

re: #211 freetoken

The two may not be separable.

I've been elsewhere for a while. Sorry for the delay.

I don't think this is an adequate response. I think they are obviously separable.

My analogy would be that between the "politicians" (as it were) who determine the text book contracts awarded for science education in Texas, and by capitalist economics for much of the rest of the USA, versus those who simply try to prove the so called facts in the same books (aka scientists).

528 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:22:45pm

Mitt Romney agrees with me ......

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

529 eachus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 8:56:59pm

re: #68 recusancy

For any econ nerds here's some notes of Krugman thinking through a "toy model" on carbon pricing and investing.

Sorry, I read through this and kept saying to myself, but lambda is zero. I have to tell you where I am coming from on this. I have a Master's degree in Statistics, and although most of my career has been spent in the area of computer science, I've done some Box-Jenkins style time-series analysis work, primarily to analyze bug reports on software. ;-)

First, current CO2 levels are killing people. Not by drowning in rising seas, or dying of heat stroke in heat waves. Higher CO2 levels favor sepsis in wounds. Where this is a big problem is in bed sores in the elderly or otherwise bedridden people. Is it a contributing factor in other health problems? Probably, but I haven't seen the research.

When talking about current and even future CO2 levels, they are not high relative to historical levels on Earth, but they are about as high as they have ever been since the human race evolved. So that is an additional huge, unknown risk.

For those reasons I think that reducing carbon emissions is important. What about the effect of CO2 on global warming? We are back to lambda is zero. A subset of statisticians understand time series analysis (TSA). Probably there is a much larger population of physicists and financial analysts who understand TSA--they use it every day. What makes TSA so difficult? The assumptions of independence and normality which most parametric statistics is built on do not hold when working with time series.

If you have TSA tools available on your home computer and spend a few minutes with the long term data on CO2 and temperature, you too will conclude that CO2 levels lag global temperatures by about 800 years, and there is no forcing. Huh? In fact when volcanoes increase CO2 levels, global temperatures promptly go down--I can point to half a dozen cases in the last couple of hundred years, and some bigger drops before then. But that is almost certainly due to the sulfur dioxide that accompanies the CO2.

I don't want to go too deep here, but make it understandable to people on both sides of the AGW argument. Hmm. Let me start with methane. You will see lots of articles saying that methane contributes 65 times as much as CO2 to global warming. But methane decomposes rapidly in the atmosphere to water and CO2. If you don't believe me, test the outside air for methane. Unless you do it in the middle of a cow pasture, you won't find a thousandth as much CH4 as CO2. So anyone who sells methane as a powerful contributor to global warming is selling snake oil. The only way it contributes is by becoming more CO2.

But, but...what about CO2? The most potent greenhouse grass in terms of its contribution to the temperature of the Earth is water vapor. What happens when you mix CO2 and H2O? In theory, you get carbonic acid H2CO3, in practice you get a lot of various ions as well, even when you mix CO2 and water as gasses. To make a huge, complex story simple, no one who knows how to analyze the data* is willing to accept the hypothesis that CO2 when added to the water vapor already present, is a greenhouse gas globally. Locally, in deserts and cold, dry arctic locales, CO2 does have a net greenhouse effect. In hot, humid areas, CO2 seems to increase precipitation and may have a net cooling effect. (Again, not enough data to be sure.)

Remember again, that as a statistician, I am telling you that increasing CO2 kills people. But it doesn't seem to cause global warming. What does? Sunspots! But I'm sure you've heard that from the global warming deniers too. (I know that global warming is happening, I just don't think CO2 is causing it.)

* On the other hand, if all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. :-(

530 freetoken  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 9:49:43pm

re: #529 eachus

The physical basis for CO2 in the atmosphere raising surface temperature is not from a time series analysis. It comes rather from conservation of energy.

531 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 7, 2010 9:49:29am

Wow. I have to say, these AGW deniers sure do their best to make it seem like they're authorities on the subject, even as they spew complete pseudo-scientific gibberish.

532 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 7, 2010 1:24:42pm

re: #529 eachus

This is so confused and so wrong that I feel the need to repost a very basic explanation of CO2 in the atmosphere and what it does.

Let's take it slowly and from the top.

The sun is a giant thermonuclear fire ball that is held together by gravity. Because of its mass and composition, the sun emits light mostly centered around the visible spectrum but with a great deal of IR.

Solar spectra have been directly measured. This is where the frequency distribution of the energy peaks. In other words, the sun puts out a ton of IR, we have measured this directly and we even know why it does this.

You with me so far?

Energy is conserved. That means that energy can change forms but it never "goes away from" the universe. As an immediate consequence, if something takes on energy from another source, it has that energy, manifests it in some way, and must manifest it in some way.

You still with me?

CO2, because of its nature, absorbs IR radiation very well. This ultimately has to do with quantum mechanics and the nature of its bonds. But it is sufficient to even state that empirically as just a property of the material without going into why. Water turns to ice because of QM ultimately as well, but it is sufficient to note the phenomena without getting side tracked.

So to review, the sun puts out a vast amount of IR, CO@ is good at absorbing it, and energy is conserved.

Are you still with me?

Now, if matter absorbs light energy several things can happen. The light can be absorbed, at which point the matter has that energy and it causes the molecules of the matter to vibrate and do various mechanical motions. This is what heat is. If you doubt that heating can occur in this way, sit outside on a sunny day and then move to the shade. It is cooler in the shade, because you are not absorbing as much light and warming up.

Another possibility is that the light gets reflected. Energy is still conserved, the thing doing the reflection does not heat as a result of the reflection. The energy comes in and then it goes out.

Still with me?

Another possibility if the bonds of the molecule are just rightly tuned to the frequency of the incident light, as is the case with CO2 and IR, is that the light is absorbed and then re-radiated out some time later in all directions.

That manes that IR that was reflected by the Earth's surface can get caught by CO2 in the atmosphere and re-radiated back down where it has another shot of getting absorbed and heating something.

This is called the greenhouse effect.

This is a property of the material. If you have more of it, you have more energy trapped in the Earth system and the Earth gets hotter because energy as always, is still conserved.

Past this point, there is NO debate. There is none. if you get this basic science, then you must conclude that adding more CO2 means trapping more IR.

OK, if you think you have a counterpoint, re-read this. This really does cover all possible objections you might have.

To believe that adding more CO2 to the atmosphere would not cause warming is like believing that adding three table spoons of salt to your coffee would not alter the taste. These are properties of the materials. They do what they do.


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