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131 comments
1 freetoken  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:31:23am

From the link:

The center right has got to hold together.

Why? Indeed, is there really much of a "center" still around in the GOP, at least among the activists and donors?

2 webevintage  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:32:48am

Frum trying to get his conservative bona fides back?


BTW, that's a pity if Rubio becomes the GOP's standard bearer.

3 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:34:35am

My respect for David Frum is just plummeted like a coyote off a cliff.


"But here’s where I come down: The center right has got to hold together."

Translation: We need to stand there and take it like good little girls where the far right takes over the part.


"It’s one thing if the race is Lieberman v. Lamont, and what’s at issue is success or failure in war"

Translation: Its one thing when its the democrats who are fighting with one another, that we should encourage!

"I don’t share the view that the conservative future belongs to Rubio’s hard-edged style of politics, especially not in a state like Florida."

Translation: That said, lets support the bastard now because he's out bastard and if that is the way the winds are blowing let no one say I don't also blow.

4 Locker  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:34:43am

I don't think most people who are self-identified as center-right would have much in common with the Republican Party... at least in the current moment.

5 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:37:31am

re: #1 freetoken

From the link:

Why? Indeed, is there really much of a "center" still around in the GOP, at least among the activists and donors?

That line about the "center right" is puzzling. How in the world do you build a "center right" by pimping for an extreme right wing tool like Rubio?

6 tnguitarist  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:37:53am

re: #4 Locker

I don't think most people who are self-identified as center-right would have much in common with the Republican Party... at least in the current moment.

There's really not much of a home for them anywhere. Not at this moment in time, anyway.

7 sandbox  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:39:18am

I consider myself a moderate Republican and I agree with David Frum on this one. What's the point of having a primary if the loser picks up his marbles and runs as an independant.?

8 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:39:24am

Frum had his moment of sanity and now has been sent back to the re-education camps where he was taught the "Right" way to think.

9 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:39:35am

re: #6 tnguitarist

There's really not much of a home for them anywhere. Not at this moment in time, anyway.

Come to the democratic party, Arlen Specter did, vote any which way you please on our agenda just allow the senate to actually give it up or down votes and we'll get along fine!

10 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:41:18am

re: #8 Dreggas

Frum had his moment of sanity and now has been sent back to the re-education camps where he was taught the "Right" way to think.

But Frum was the darling of the left for a month or so... it's interesting how the left is so attracted by bright shiny objects with no substance.

11 freetoken  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:41:23am

re: #5 Charles

If Frum et. al. want to put up a pole that says "Center-Right", around which to rally the troops, then it would make much more sense to do that based on a candidate for one of the California races, rather than for Rubio, and maybe not in Florida's races at all.

12 tnguitarist  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:41:33am

re: #9 jamesfirecat

Come to the democratic party, Arlen Specter did, vote any which way you please on our agenda just allow the senate to actually give it up or down votes and we'll get along fine!

You'll notice I said "them".

13 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:42:37am

re: #7 sandbox

Parties are not some holy thing. People are free to run as independents, and should get supported based on who they are and what they do, not on what party they belong to.

Putting party first gets us nowhere, fast.

14 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:42:54am

re: #5 Charles

That line about the "center right" is puzzling. How in the world do you build a "center right" by pimping for an extreme right wing tool like Rubio?

See my earlier thoughts.

Frum must realize that the crazy has taken over the part. But the only way that the crazy can find enough votes to get elected and thus have the GOP seem like an actual political movement rather than a gigantic lunatic asylum on wheels is if the sane republicans vote for these crazy pants people.

If the sane republicans voted democratic, or even just stayed home, the crazy would get shellacked at the polls by even the minority of democratic voters who care enough to vote.

15 the yankee  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:43:44am

If Crist wins who do you think he will concourse with? When this is all said and done.

Also why not give the public at large the chance to vote on who should be senator. Rather then let the primaries establish that isn't that more freedom, more options. Shouldn't the Tea Partiers be fore more candidates on the ballet.

16 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:44:28am

re: #12 tnguitarist

You'll notice I said "them".

Well "they" can become engaged democrats who elect blue dogs. It seems like they've got a better chance of that than retaking their own party from the crazies...

17 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:45:04am

re: #13 Obdicut

Parties are not some holy thing. People are free to run as independents, and should get supported based on who they are and what they do, not on what party they belong to.

Putting party first gets us nowhere, fast.

/But Saint Ray-Gun told us never to ever bad mouth another republican or do anything that might get in the way of him winning an election!

18 gamark  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:45:08am

re: #9 jamesfirecat

Come to the democratic party, Arlen Specter did

Twice, even!

19 sandbox  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:45:52am

re: #13 Obdicut

I guess what I'm also saying is I don't consider Marco Rubio as so far out (on the right). Or maybe I'm not so moderate after all.

20 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:46:54am

Karl Rove Endorses Creationist Florida Candidate Rubio (LGF, last October 5th)

To Marco Rubio, teaching evolutionary science to children is the first step to becoming just like Fidel Castro’s Cuba:

Rubio, a Cuban-American, made a comparison to the strategy employed by the Communist Party in Cuba where schools encouraged children to turn in parents who criticized Fidel Castro.

“Of course, I’m not equating the evolution people with Fidel Castro,” he quickly added, while noting that undermining the family and the church were key means the Communist Party used to gain control in Cuba.

“In order to impose their totalitarian regime, they destroyed the family; they destroyed the faith links that existed in that society,” he said.

Although the evolution issue is “obviously” on a “much smaller scale,” both matters are related to the “fundamental question of who is in charge of the upbringing of children. Is it parents or is it the government? I believe it’s parents. And we should do nothing in government that undermines that relationship.

“And there are parents that passionately believe in this and they should be given the opportunity to teach that to their children without someone undoing it,” Rubio said.


So, if parents also want to teach their children the virtues of incest, cannibalism, and human sacrifice, we should not allow the public schools to contradict those teachings either? Well, those things are against the law, creo-loons might sneer. Ok, how about racism, astrology, and the evil nature of housecats? All of those are espoused legally by certain people, no doubt including some parents. Should we avoid undermining those beliefs as well?

21 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:47:54am

The fact that Frum wrote this seven years ago, and stuck with the Republicans until--the present, indicates an unhealthy bond, IMHO.

22 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:47:55am

re: #19 sandbox

You are not in the least bit moderate, judging by your comments on LGF.

23 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:48:35am

I still find it funny that while they supported Lieberman doing exactly the same damn thing they are now getting bent over Crist. I guess this is a change to the paradigm, It's NOT Ok If You Are a Republican.

24 freetoken  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:49:43am

re: #21 wrenchwench

"Conservatism" and "loyalty" are often equated. Perhaps Frum has a very strong concept of loyalty, and thus he desires to stay with his party to the bitter end.

25 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:50:43am
26 the yankee  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:51:38am

When do things get to the point where you no longer have the best interest of the USA in mind, and you are just interested in the future of your party?

27 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:51:52am

re: #21 wrenchwench

The fact that Frum wrote this seven years ago, and stuck with the Republicans until--the present, indicates an unhealthy bond, IMHO.

Now I get images of David Frum with a black eye shivering in a shower somewhere cooing to himself about how his party only hit him because he deserves it and he's been a bad pundit.

(Not to make light of people who are in actual abusive relationships just)

28 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:52:14am

re: #24 freetoken

"Conservatism" and "loyalty" are often equated. Perhaps Frum has a very strong concept of loyalty, and thus he desires to stay with his party to the bitter end.

Most peoples first motivation is to decide their source of income, and how to best exploit that. Frum is testing the waters to see where his new niche is, where he can situated himself best that will not hurt himself financially.

29 sandbox  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:52:38am

re: #22 Obdicut

When I say I'm moderate, I mean on so-called social issues: I'm pro-choice on abortion, can live with a certain amount of gun control, and will accept gay marriage if a state legislature approves same.

30 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:52:40am

re: #26 the yankee

When do things get to the point where you no longer have the best interest of the USA in mind, and you are just interested in the future of your party?

When you get elected. Wish I were kidding.

31 pharmmajor  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:52:47am

Yet another sign of the GOP's inevitable crash and burn. And I can't wait.

32 webevintage  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:53:13am

The best thing for the Republican party would be for Crist to win as an independent.
They need more losses like the one in NY to slap some sense in there folks who want to court the soc con tea party Palin people.

(Not sure why I care since I'll never trust a conservative who says "no really, I'm moderate".)

And for some reason this thread makes me think of Ken Blackwell's interview on The Daily Show last night.

33 pharmmajor  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:53:15am

re: #26 the yankee

When do things get to the point where you no longer have the best interest of the USA in mind, and you are just interested in the future of your party?

When you join the Democratic or Republican party.

34 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:53:51am

re: #25 sngnsgt

Er... you accidentally posted a very racist comment on LGF, you realize that? Perhaps you made a mistake, or perhaps you're stupid as a pile of shit?

35 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:54:44am

re: #33 pharmmajor

When you join the Democratic or Republican party.

There's really no need to be massively dismissive and insulting in that manner.

I joined the Republican party, as was not more interested in the future of that party than the USA. I also left that party eventually, for precisely that reason.

36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:55:08am

re: #7 sandbox

I consider myself a moderate Republican and I agree with David Frum on this one. What's the point of having a primary if the loser picks up his marbles and runs as an independant.?

To take votes from the parties nominee. This has the smell of Republican "FAIL" to it, if you ask me.

37 badger1970  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:55:18am

The Democrats also raised holy hell over Lieberman while the Republicans laughed. But then the Jeffords situation with the Democrats applauding along with the Specter defections (left-right and left again). Party swapping is nothing new.

Bottom line, Crist was id'd as RINO, Rubio jumped and the blood began to stir. Crist with an I now gives the D's a chance.

38 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:55:18am

re: #29 sandbox

Then why do you support Rubio, who is highly social conservative?

39 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:56:36am

Disappointing, from Frum.

40 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:56:53am

re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Party's... DAMMIT!

41 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:56:57am

re: #37 badger1970

I'm willing to bet the DNC will throw money at Meeks.

42 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:57:29am

re: #25 sngnsgt

Hahahaha! Let's pass on my racist email of the day. I'm sure all the LGF'ers will enjoy it.

Ass.

43 Gus  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:57:57am

Meet the new standard bearer which is the same as the old standard bearer. Creationist, pro-life, theocratic so-con, and alleged tax-cutter with a umbilical chord firmly attached to the religious right of this country. This has been the case with the GOP since the RR made itself known in the early 1980s.He is only a new face in a field of homogeneity that includes other members in lock step with the RR program: Pawlenty, Jindal, Romney, etc.

44 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:58:10am

re: #32 webevintage



(Not sure why I care since I'll never trust a conservative who says "no really, I'm moderate".)
. . .

Aw, c'mon now.

45 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:58:30am

re: #25 sngnsgt

If you meant to present that email as something stupid that you disagreed with, you really need to say that.

If you were presenting it because you think it's funny, you have something wrong with you.

I hope it's the former.

46 badger1970  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:58:34am

re: #41 Cannadian Club Akbar

No doubt.

47 sandbox  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:58:47am

re: #38 Obdicut

Without going thru all of Rubio's positions, I probably don't agree with him on social issues, agree with him on national defense and homeland security, and agree with him on reducing the scale of gov't and taxes. On balance I could vote for him, if I lived in Florida.

48 sngnsgt  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:59:04am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

My mistake, I didn't intend it as racist, I apologize.

49 fizzlogic  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:59:08am

For all Frum's talk about "epistemic closure" he's still caught up in its cognitive dissonance.

50 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:59:50am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

I'll go with "Stupid as a pile of shit" for 1000 alex.

51 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 9:59:51am

re: #47 sandbox

Which is why you are not a moderate. Supporting a far-right candidate over a moderate one is pretty much a definition of not being a moderate.

In addition, even though you are saying you are a social liberal, those issues don't seem to matter very much to you.

52 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:00:06am

re: #25 sngnsgt

WTF? Why are you posting this crap here?

53 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:00:22am

re: #48 sngnsgt

My mistake, I didn't intend it as racist, I apologize.

What did you intend it as, biting social commentary on how at the moment only lily white people are capable of finding employment in today's job market?

54 webevintage  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:00:43am

Looks like Crist is now dead to the FL Republican Party:
[Link: wonkette.com...]

55 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:00:45am

re: #50 Dreggas

I'll go with "Stupid as a pile of shit" for 1000 alex.

Ok... can it now... he/she apologized. If it's still a problem, Charles will delete it, or someone will.

56 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:01:11am

At least Rubio came out against that ridiculous Arizona Immigration Law.

From Politico, quoting a Rubio statement published in Tampa Bay:

States certainly have the right to enact policies to protect their citizens, but Arizona’s policy shows the difficulty and limitations of states trying to act piecemeal to solve what is a serious federal problem. From what I have read in news reports, I do have concerns about this legislation. While I don’t believe Arizona’s policy was based on anything other than trying to get a handle on our broken borders, I think aspects of the law, especially that dealing with ‘reasonable suspicion,’ are going to put our law enforcement officers in an incredibly difficult position. It could also unreasonably single out people who are here legally, including many American citizens. Throughout American history and throughout this administration we have seen that when government is given an inch it takes a mile.

(Emphasis in original Politico)

57 The Yankee  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:02:13am

As far as I am concern if 80% GOP is willing to support things like the Arizona law, waste money on Health Reform law suites, not go after GOPers that are Birthers, support people like Palin and Ron Paul, allow the Birch Society to be part of their events. Then the GOP are source Earthers, willing to destroy everything when they are not in control and go to the lowest common denominator to regain power.

58 Gus  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:02:44am

re: #56 Joo-LiZ

At least Rubio came out against that ridiculous Arizona Immigration Law.

From Politico, quoting a Rubio statement published in Tampa Bay:

(Emphasis in original Politico)

Which was a bit of a surprise. A welcome departure IMO.

59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:03:30am

Crazy.

I just noticed... at my table in the Mexican Restaurant? The picture at my table is upside-down...

heh...

60 Girth  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:03:54am

re: #47 sandbox

Without going thru all of Rubio's positions, I probably don't agree with him on social issues, agree with him on national defense and homeland security, and agree with him on reducing the scale of gov't and taxes. On balance I could vote for him, if I lived in Florida.

Marco Rubio and his tea party buddies don't really want to reduce the size of government. They just want to use its power to promote their agenda.

61 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:04:00am

re: #59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Crazy.

I just noticed... at my table in the Mexican Restaurant? The picture at my table is upside-down...

heh...

You're sitting on the wrong side of the border.

62 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:04:42am

re: #20 Shiplord Kirel

Karl Rove Endorses Creationist Florida Candidate Rubio (LGF, last October 5th)

So, if parents also want to teach their children the virtues of incest, cannibalism, and human sacrifice, we should not allow the public schools to contradict those teachings either? Well, those things are against the law, creo-loons might sneer. Ok, how about racism, astrology, and the evil nature of housecats? All of those are espoused legally by certain people, no doubt including some parents. Should we avoid undermining those beliefs as well?

Heretic. Housecats are the proper overlords and cannot be evil. Your blasphemy has been noted, and the followers of Ceiling Cat plan your proper punishment even now...

//

63 webevintage  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:05:36am

re: #44 reine.de.tout

Aw, c'mon now.

I should have put "trust them enough to vote for them".....

Because you vote for that guy who says "no really, I' a moderate" but then they get around their soc con buddies who are all like "women are icky and have no right to control when they use the womb or not but OMG! no money to help support what comes out of that womb" or "gays are icky and we don't want them screwing up marriage for the rest of us" or "ewwwww, brown people? we no likeie in America" and the next thing you know perfectly reasonable conservatives begin kow-towing to people like Palin.

You get the picture.

64 drcordell  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:05:54am

Awwww, sounds like poor little Frummy is getting lonely outside. If you listen hard enough you can hear his little paws scratching at the screen door.

65 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:06:30am

There's an ad on Frum's site that has Stephen Colbert saying, "Frum is 'the balls' of the Republican Party." I am reminded of the trip my cats took to the vet when they were 6 months old.

66 sandbox  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:06:39am

re: #51 Obdicut

IMO you have a narrow-minded view of politics--you are deciding what issues what should be important to voters.

67 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:06:48am

re: #60 Girth

Marco Rubio and his tea party buddies don't really want to reduce the size of government. They just want to use its power to promote their agenda.

Oh they want small government all right. For example they want to make government small enough that they can fit inside a woman's (cue slide whistle)

68 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:07:36am

re: #59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Crazy.

I just noticed... at my table in the Mexican Restaurant? The picture at my table is upside-down...

heh...

Maybe it's an Escher print.

69 recusancy  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:07:38am

re: #7 sandbox

I consider myself a moderate Republican and I agree with David Frum on this one. What's the point of having a primary if the loser picks up his marbles and runs as an independant.?

Did you think the same thing when Lieberman did the same thing a few years ago?

70 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:07:56am

re: #66 sandbox

I'm sorry? Where in my post did I say what should be important to you. I'm noting that they do not appear to be important to you, since you would be willing to vote for someone who holds absolutely antithetical views on those subjects.

I said nothing about whether or not they should be important at all. Why would you accuse me of that?

71 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:07:58am

re: #66 sandbox

IMO you have a narrow-minded view of politics--you are deciding what issues what should be important to voters.

So in other words your liberal socially, but you don't care about being liberal social enough to vote for people who agree on those views...

72 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:08:09am

re: #63 webevintage

I should have put "trust them enough to vote for them"...

Because you vote for that guy who says "no really, I' a moderate" but then they get around their soc con buddies who are all like "women are icky and have no right to control when they use the womb or not but OMG! no money to help support what comes out of that womb" or "gays are icky and we don't want them screwing up marriage for the rest of us" or "ewww, brown people? we no likeie in America" and the next thing you know perfectly reasonable conservatives begin kow-towing to people like Palin.

You get the picture.

Yep.

73 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:08:28am
74 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:09:30am

re: #73 lostlakehiker

Don't quote the posts that are likely to be deleted.

75 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:10:01am

re: #74 reine.de.tout

Don't quote the posts that are likely to be deleted.

Have already been deleted, in this case.

76 reidr  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:10:01am

re: #4 Locker

I don't think most people who are self-identified as center-right would have much in common with the Republican Party... at least in the current moment.

I think that in a historical sense, center-right is pretty close to Blue Dog Democrat these days. How things have changed....

77 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:10:53am

re: #25 sngnsgt

Dude.

78 lostlakehiker  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:11:24am

re: #74 reine.de.tout

Don't quote the posts that are likely to be deleted.

I deliberately omitted almost all of the text. What remains is just barely sufficient to provide context for the rejoinder.

79 sandbox  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:11:58am

re: #69 recusancy

No. So I guess that makes me a hypocrite or, at least, inconsistent, although since I'm a Republican why would it matter what I think should happen in Democratic Party politics.

80 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:13:57am

Anyone surprised some Obama hating douchebag thinks racist jokes are funny?

81 Locker  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:14:04am

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

But Frum was the darling of the left for a month or so... it's interesting how the left is so attracted by bright shiny objects with no substance.

As opposed to rampant fear and anger with no substance on the flip side.

82 sandbox  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:17:25am

re: #71 jamesfirecat

We all have to balance things out. For example re Charlie Christ, I assume i agree with him on social issues and national defense and homeland security, but disagree on size of gov't and lowering taxes.

83 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:18:24am

re: #82 sandbox

We all have to balance things out. For example re Charlie Christ, I assume i agree with him on social issues and national defense and homeland security, but disagree on size of gov't and lowering taxes.

Good to know you care more about the size of the government than properly managing our homeland security.

84 bratwurst  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:20:12am

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Anyone surprised some Obama hating douchebag thinks racist jokes are funny?

SATIRE!

/Rush fan

85 sandbox  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:20:29am

re: #83 jamesfirecat

Where did I say that? I said I'm for strong homeland security. Both Christ and Rubio are for that. I assume Meeks is a wimp on the issue.

86 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:24:58am

re: #85 sandbox

Where did I say that? I said I'm for strong homeland security. Both Christ and Rubio are for that. I assume Meeks is a wimp on the issue.

Okay I'll admit I was putting words in your mouth, but only because you left unsaid that you agreed with Rubio on homeland security, size of government and lower taxes but disagree with him on social issues.

Still wasn't fair of me though yellow flag, five yards, repeat first post.

87 reidr  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:30:06am

re: #43 Gus 802

He is only a new face in a field of homogeneity that includes other members in lock step with the RR program: Pawlenty, Jindal, Romney, etc.

To be fair, I think Romney would be quite happy to jettison the religious right and pander to any other group if the situation called for it.

88 webevintage  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:31:06am

re: #85 sandbox

Where did I say that? I said I'm for strong homeland security. Both Christ and Rubio are for that. I assume Meeks is a wimp on the issue.

Why? Because he is a Democrat?

89 Mark Pennington  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:34:17am

re: #23 Dreggas

I still find it funny that while they supported Lieberman doing exactly the same damn thing they are now getting bent over Crist. I guess this is a change to the paradigm, It's NOT Ok If You Are a Republican.

Kinda like that Constitution isn't so neato when it comes to brown people. It just depends on what the issue is.

As for Crist, I heard this morning that he has a slight edge running as an Independent.

90 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:40:21am

re: #1 freetoken

From the link:

Why? Indeed, is there really much of a "center" still around in the GOP, at least among the activists and donors?

There is. It's a soft, chewy center.

Unfortunately nobody knows how many licks it takes to get to it.

91 darthstar  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 10:41:35am

What's the point in having standards if they can't be doubled?

92 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 11:16:37am

re: #90 Romantic Heretic

There is. It's a soft, chewy center.

Unfortunately nobody knows how many licks it takes to get to it.

And since those licks are looked upon as 'sin' amongst 54.3% of them, it's going to take a lot of work to find it.

93 sagehen  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 11:29:10am

re: #17 jamesfirecat

/But Saint Ray-Gun told us never to ever bad mouth another republican or do anything that might get in the way of him winning an election!

Scozzafava.

94 sagehen  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 11:31:39am

re: #26 the yankee

When do things get to the point where you no longer have the best interest of the USA in mind, and you are just interested in the future of your party?

When you bite your tongue and don't tell the electorate what you really think about McCain's running mate.

95 advocatusdiaboli  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 12:07:57pm

"Republicans of all stripes have a new standard-bearer"

Rubio usurps Palin? Both are losers and bear no standard for me--they are below sub-standard.

"With Rubio, you have a more certain idea of what you’ll get"

Yeah, and man is it scary and ugly.

"what’s at issue is success or failure in war"

I cannot help but think a lot of Germans said that in 1930 about Hitler instead of seeking more moderate leaders. Look where that took Eurpoe and the rest of the world.

96 filetandrelease  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 12:08:38pm

RUBIO!

I can't find anyone down here who is not going to vote for him. Why would anyone back Crist? He has zero chance of winning.

A sunami is coming and FL is just a small part of it.

97 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 12:09:09pm

re: #96 filetandrelease

Tsunamis aren't good things.

98 filetandrelease  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 12:15:09pm

re: #97 Obdicut

A poor metaphor then, how about a ground swell of public anger over expanding government and accompanying expenses is developing into a voter turnout that will bring sweeping change to Washington with Rubio being just the current example? And oddly, this is going to catch many by surprise because they can't see the anger for what it is because of the misleading MSM portrait of a bunch of ill tempered racist.

99 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 12:16:07pm

re: #98 filetandrelease

A poor metaphor then, how about a ground swell of public anger over expanding government and accompanying expenses is developing into a voter turnout that will bring sweeping change to Washington with Rubio being just the current example? And oddly, this is going to catch many by surprise because they can't see the anger for what it is because of the misleading MSM portrait of a bunch of ill tempered racist.

You know I think we already had a ground swell of public anger over expanding government and accompanying expense.....

It was called the 2008 elections.

100 filetandrelease  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 12:18:06pm

re: #99 jamesfirecat

Really? Well then, you ain't seen nothing yet.

101 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 12:59:59pm

re: #98 filetandrelease

I'm not sure why you think that support for a social conservative like Rubio is based on financial conservatism. It's rather obviously not.

102 filetandrelease  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 1:14:28pm

re: #101 Obdicut
From his Website

TAXES: “I have never voted for a tax increase. While I generally support tax cuts, I believe meaningful tax reform that simplifies our tax code, makes it easier to understand and is more fair to the taxpayer should be our ultimate goal. In the mean time, I will support efforts to reduce the tax burden on American workers, entrepreneurs and businesses. This includes: eliminating the Death Tax; eliminating taxes on capital gains, dividends and interest, thereby encouraging greater savings and investment; and making America the most attractive place to do business by lowering corporate tax rates.”

It is only obvious that his increasing support is due to social conservates to those who see what they wish. Florida isn't nearly as socially conservative as some southern states. This coming change isn't about social conservatism any more than it is about racism. Well, maybe a little more.

103 reidr  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 1:24:02pm

re: #102 filetandrelease

It sounds like he's in favor of eliminating or reducing taxes on everyone. A popular position, I suppose, but if he isn't also in favor of Paulian levels of government dismantlement, it's fantasy. "Charging zero and making up for it in volume" doesn't work. Deficits don't matter after all?

104 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 1:32:39pm

re: #102 filetandrelease

All of the things he says that will reduce the income burden on workers will actually reduce the income burden on unearned income, so called because it is not gained through work.

He is not a real fiscal conservative.

105 reidr  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 1:42:21pm

re: #104 Obdicut

What is fiscal conservatism, anyway? Is it just "cut taxes, cut taxes, cut taxes!" with a dose of lip service to cutting spending? I'm curious about what the sane tea partiers really want and if it's at all realistic.

106 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 1:45:11pm

re: #105 reidr

To me, actual fiscal conservatism would be about doing everything as efficiently and cheaply as possible.

It is often used, however, for a certain fiscal ideology that declares that unearned income is superior to earned income and deserves tax breaks, which to me has nothing to do with any form of 'conservatism', but is simply a tax expression of Austrian economics.

107 reidr  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 1:51:27pm

re: #106 Obdicut

That was a bit of a loaded question, I admit, but I appreciate the serious answer. I'm not sure I understand why anyone would favor unearned income over earned income, unless one is wealthy and selfish. More trickle-down theory? (I've never studied economics.) The term is thrown around a lot, apparently by people who don't really understand its meaning.

108 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 1:55:24pm

re: #107 reidr

Yes, it's trickle-down theory, basically. Dressed up in slightly prettier language, it's Voodoo economics.

What happens over time as a the average buying power decreases is not answered by it.

109 reidr  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:03:47pm

re: #108 Obdicut

I'll stop referring to myself that way then. I always thought it meant someone (or a government) who basically lives within their means, or is fiscally responsible. Which doesn't make sense, because "tax and spend" could fit that description, too, but it's usually in the context of "I'm a good low taxes/low spending R, not like that dirty tax 'n' spend D". Ah well, you learn something new every day.

I'm still curious what these angry, angry serious tea partiers are so angry about, and more importantly, what they would change. I do know that nothing's ever as simple as it looks like from the outside....

110 engineer cat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:07:14pm

re: #96 filetandrelease

a sunami is coming

unless you've just returned from dec 2010, i would use a conditional tense

one effect of rubio vs crist vs meek might very well be that the election will give a measurement of far right vs moderate vs reliable democratic voter in florida, and what falls out might not be the news that the teabaggers want to hear

personally i think that if the democrats and/or moderates want to maximize the effect of crist vs rubio, the democrats should dump meek and get behind crist

111 filetandrelease  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:10:00pm

re: #109 reidr

The label becomes irrelevant anyway. Our federal government and the accompanying expenses are growing beyond our ability to pay for it. That is obvious. And it is making a lot of people angry and nervous. In my view, a fiscal conservative is one who wants to stop that growth, and turn it around. Governor Christie would be a good example.

112 filetandrelease  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:10:45pm

re: #110 engineer dog
We can always hope.

113 engineer cat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:13:35pm

re: #111 filetandrelease

fiscal conservative is one who wants to stop that growth

how?

114 engineer cat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:17:30pm

(helpful link to breakdown of u.s. federal budget)

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

115 filetandrelease  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:29:28pm

re: #113 engineer dog

When you consider how much money our government is borrowing to stay in business, "how" does become the question. I wish I could give you a great answer but I can't.

Last year we spent nearly 400 billion on interest pmts alone.

It will be painful, that I do know. I would even agree to tax increases to pay off the debt, but we know that any tax increase will only correspond to a larger federal government.

116 reidr  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:36:09pm

re: #115 filetandrelease

So you're happy to vote for someone like Rubio that promises lots of tax cuts? He sounds like your typical Republican anti-tax ideologue. That seems very much at odds with your concern about the deficit.

117 filetandrelease  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:41:25pm

re: #116 reidr

Very happy to vote for him. Government must be reined in. Shrunk. Don't feed the beast, it will just get fatter. Starve it if necessary.

118 engineer cat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:44:13pm

re: #115 filetandrelease

When you consider how much money our government is borrowing to stay in business

the way i look at it, the most important thing is whether or not the government is accomplishing what we want and need it to do.

i can't think of any governments in history that have never gone into debt in the attempt to do what they feel they need to do. it is very common for businesses of all types to go into debt with a view to getting over short term losses to get to long term profit

governments of course are different in that making a profit is not the primary objective (altho i wish more people would keep that in mind)

government is borrowing to stay in business

but government is not a business

anyway, ronald reagan and david stockman demonstrated very effectively that in a (seemingly) perpetual-inflation economic world, interest payments that seem huge at first inevitably get smaller over time. as a real-world example, the deficits produced in the 1980s caused the % of the federal budget devoted to debt service to jump to 10% by 1990, but then to grow smaller. of course, the u.s. effectively never pays back the principal of the federal debt, altho the owners of the debt change from time to time

the bottom line here is that

1) the most important thing for a government is to accomplish what is needed

2) deficit financing is expensive but used almost universally by businesses and governments

3) unless and until a perpetual-inflation environment changes into a situation with significant deflation, interest payments for any particular debt will effectively become smaller over time

thus, like the reagan era deficits, the obama era deficits will be digested without too much pain in the long run

119 engineer cat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:47:23pm

ronald reagan and david stockman demonstrated very effectively

to sharpen the point, in the 1980s it was us "liberals" who were the ones making a fuss about "unsustainable deficits"

remember?

but david stockman proved that we were wrong

120 reidr  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:49:02pm

re: #117 filetandrelease

Now we're back to comfortable slogans. What Republican has ever shrunk government? What would you or he shrink? I guarantee he will vote for every tax cut that comes up (since they're always good, whee!), but I wouldn't be so sure about cutting spending.

I agree with engineer dog. The danger of deficits is being overblown and being used to fan the flames of people that are already nervous about the recession (which those same people helped cause!). Grover Norquist, Dick Armey, and their wealthy friends appreciate your support in cutting their taxes.

121 filetandrelease  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:50:14pm

re: #118 engineer dog

Good read, and I can only hope you are right. On the other hand your final analysis may not be correct. Ballooning dept can cripple a country. Greece and Spain come to mind.

The dept to income ratio is key, and ours isn't improving.

Got to go watch my sons volley ball game. Thanks for the input, it always a pleasure here. I learn from contrary views instead of echos.

122 filetandrelease  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 2:53:16pm

re: #120 reidr

And the 50% of the country who don't pay any taxes appreciate your support for keeping them that way.

Sorry. Later

123 reidr  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 3:02:22pm

re: #122 filetandrelease

Ugh, quite a statement to go out on. You seem to have the talking points of the day. Read this. Later, enjoy the game.

124 engineer cat  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 3:20:45pm

50% of the country who don't pay any taxes

i look forward to republican candidates running on raising taxes for 50% of americans

125 ClaudeMonet  Thu, Apr 29, 2010 11:49:57pm

re: #32 webevintage

The best thing for the Republican party would be for Crist to win as an independent.
They need more losses like the one in NY to slap some sense in there folks who want to court the soc con tea party Palin people.

(Not sure why I care since I'll never trust a conservative who says "no really, I'm moderate".)

And for some reason this thread makes me think of Ken Blackwell's interview on The Daily Show last night.

Blackwell is a smug, arrogant empty suit who latched on to being almost the only black Republican, back when the Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Republican party ran the county with an iron fist and empty mind. I've known "Kenny Deepwell" since he was a token VP at my college (doing whatever the bosses told him to do) and will say this for him--he dresses well. Beyond that, he hasn't an original thought in his head, says nothing in deep, rich tones, does whatever the party tells him to do, and deservedly got his butt whipped when he ran for governor.

BTW, not only do I distrust an obvious right-winger who says "I'm a moderate", I also distrust a left-winger who says the same thing.

126 filetandrelease  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 6:46:29am

re: #123 reidr

That statement was thoughtless, didn't come out right. It was a lame attempt at brevity to state the contrast between right and left regarding wealth and poverty by pointing out a difference between you and me. You comment seemed a bit snarky or I wouldn't made the quick attempt.

Your comment about the wealthy grateful for my support, the fact is, I have no problem with the wealthy or allowing them to keep their money. They pay a huge amount of taxes.

While on the other hand, the feel good policies of the left have done nothing to alleviate poverty and if anything have added to it.

BTW, I just watch the Crist video announcing his run as an Independent. He is a pandering fool. To put it nicely.

127 reidr  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 8:49:44am

re: #126 filetandrelease

The thread that would not die! Maybe someone will see this post....

Yes, I realized my last sentence sounded a bit snarky after the fact. Guilty of letting my emotions on the subject get the best of me.

I have no problem with people getting wealthy. I'm probably upper-middle class myself. I don't want to feed any absurd notion that all Democrats are communists deep down. On the other hand, I'm skeptical that wealthy people and corporations always pay their fair share of taxes. Didn't Warren Buffet say he pays less in taxes than his secretary? There are probably lots of examples with corporations dodging taxes, too.

But that wasn't my point. My point was that, to a large extent, the tea partiers are, in my view, being used as pawns by the wealthy. "Grass roots" organizers like Armey and Republican leaders are taking advantage of hard economic times and xenophobic fears, fanning the flames of discontent over subjects like taxes, size of the government, Obama, socialists, Democrats, liberals, muslims, etc. This also happened with the religious right. They were mobilized to vote over socon issues like gay marriage, but in the end nothing changed much. It was just a means for the Republicans to get to 50% + 1. Similarly, if and when Republicans regain power, thanks partially to the tea partiers, nothing will change. The wealthy will get their tax cuts and spending will increase. Alternative energy research and various industry regulations will languish, among other side effects I consider bad. Who knows, maybe we'll get a war with Iran. That's why I ask what tea partiers want, how they think they will get it, and if it's really a good thing. People tend to get caught up emotionally in their causes and not question things, especially when they only listen to reinforcing points of view. (Hey, I may even be guilty....)

I don't have any info to back it up right now, but I suspect the gap between rich and poor has gotten much greater in the last 15 years, mostly under Republican rule. You may criticize the "feel good" policies of the left, but I think it's almost certain the right will make things worse for the poor.

I don't know what to think about Crist. I'm nowhere near Florida. If he's a moderate Republican at heart, then maybe I could accept him. Being a pandering fool doesn't improve his standing, though.

128 filetandrelease  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 9:27:02am

I pray you are wrong about the movement being a tool. I simply don't know. Its' main impetus is to flush out Rinos and get conservatives back into Washington. If that happens and we wind up with the result you outline I would be disappointed.

My "feeling" is that you and many others, primarily on the left but not exclusively, are underestimating the Tea Party movement. Time will tell.

Your points are well taken, the last 15 years under Republican rule have been a great disappointment to the conservative movement.

129 reidr  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 9:34:29am

re: #125 ClaudeMonet

You're not kidding about Blackwell being an empty suit. Before his Daily Show appearance, I didn't know who he was. For about 30 minutes, he just repeatedly asserted that Obama was grabbing power but provided no evidence to back it up. Minimizing the Bush admin's efforts along those lines was also laughable. Just another pathetic, reality-ignoring rightwing smear merchant.

130 reidr  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 9:51:41am

re: #128 filetandrelease

I could be wrong about the tea partiers being tools, of course. If they are, it's bad and business as usual for the Repubs. Even if not, though, consider what you may get. "Conservatives" is a broad term. You may think you're just getting tax-cutting, spending-cutting folks, but a lot of these people have other far right fringe views (that are accepted by some of your co-partiers, by the way). Be careful what you wish for....

Related to getting what you ask for, I hope you (the collective "you") seriously consider what you think you want. It's easy to shout anti-government, anti-socialism slogans, but what specifically would you do? 45 years ago, your forerunners were probably up in arms over medicare, and now they're shouting not to touch it. As I've mentioned before, it's easy to criticize from the outside, but once you're in power, the decisions aren't so easy.

I think the bad economy is the fuel for the tea party. As the economy improves and people see that Obamacare doesn't equal marxism (and in fact helps a lot of them), most regular people will lose interest. The fringe elements and Republican base will keep it going for awhile, but it won't amount to much.

131 mph  Sun, May 2, 2010 8:45:26pm

I know next to nothing about Rubio yet -- but it is obvious that Crist has no driving principles except for the desire to power.


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