Conservatives Waking Up to Global Warming?

Environment • Views: 3,565

There are signs that some right wing climate change deniers are finally waking up.

Science editor of the Daily Mail, Michael Hanlon, announced last week that he is changing his stance on global warming due to recent events in Greenland and his trip to this country (which he now refers to as “Global Warming Ground Zero”). Hanlon wrote: “I have long been something of a climate-change sceptic, but my views in recent years have shifted. For me, the most convincing evidence that something worrying is going on lies right here in the Arctic” (emphasis added). Joss Garman of Left Foot Forward said Hanlon “could previously be seen as the UK’s most influential ‘sceptic’” and has a good story on this and other recent changes in conservative media as concerns global warming.

And, on the other side of the Atlantic, a little over a week ago, CNN meteorologist Chad Myers made a breakthrough statement on one key issue of global warming, finally admitting that global warming IS caused (at least partly) by humans. Covering this story in more depth, Brad Johnson of The Wonk Room wrote: “One of America’s most influential global warming skeptics, CNN meteorologist Chad Myers, has finally admitted that global warming is “caused by man.’”

Now, most recently, oil-funded Pat Michaels, “a scientist who now works for the Cato Institute, the libertarian think tank that strongly opposes caps to carbon dioxide,” and who has promoted global warming denial for decades, has acknowledged that addressing global warming is an issue of “political acceptability.”

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154 comments
1 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:31:51pm

Greenland as "Global Warming Ground Zero".

Would it be an affront to build a coal-fired power plant there?

2 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:33:10pm

About

Fucking

Time

3 Coracle  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:33:44pm

It's a start. But it's nowhere near enough.

4 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:33:49pm

Of course I'm sure they'll still say Global Warming is an issue for the free market to resolve rather than bringing in more government regulation....

5 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:35:29pm

RINO purge!

6 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:35:56pm

re: #4 jamesfirecat

Of course I'm sure they'll still say Global Warming is an issue for the free market to resolve rather than bringing in more government regulation...

Free market solution, I'll stock up on food, ammo, hockey masks and diesel powered dune buggies and rule the wasteland when the time comes.

7 garhighway  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:36:36pm

Let me know when the Koch brothers get on board. Until their money goes to the sidelines, the fight ain't over.

8 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:36:38pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Cool!
...Hockey Masks??

9 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:36:42pm

There's also this site:

Republicans For Environmental Protection

Haven't really checked it out in-depth, but there it is.

10 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:36:45pm

It's only the key to all of society's ills. New technology, new energy, new economic base. It would give everyone a sense of direction and possibility, dissipate the hatreds, little things like that.

11 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:37:01pm

Jeez, what did they put in these guys' sodapop? Pretty soon they will be claiming that gays are not mentally ill and that sex education does not lead to teen promiscuity.

12 Racer X  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:37:05pm

Duh.

Its freaking HOT outside!

13 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:38:04pm

re: #12 Racer X

It was 40 dig this am at 5:30....
But then again...I'm at 5400 ft!

14 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:38:18pm

re: #8 reloadingisnotahobby

Cool!
...Hockey Masks??

The Lord Humongous does not explain himself to the likes of you.

15 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:38:22pm

re: #10 Bob Levin

It's only the key to all of society's ills. New technology, new energy, new economic base. It would give everyone a sense of direction and possibility, dissipate the hatreds, little things like that.

Anything to lessen or economic and political connections with the Middle East would be worth the effort, yes...

16 mr.fusion  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:38:44pm

and check this out

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Earlier today, the Huffington Post’s Amanda Terkel reported that Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele “distanced the Republican Party from SB-1070″ in an interview with Univision. Steele attempted to reassure Latino viewers that Arizona’s new immigration law is not “a reflection of an entire country, nor is it a reflection of an entire political party.” Wonk Room observed that, over the past week, at least two other Republicans have appeared on Spanish-language television echoing Steele’s remarks: Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart (R-FL) and Florida senatorial candidate Marco Rubio (R).

17 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:38:47pm

re: #1 ralphieboy

Greenland as "Global Warming Ground Zero".

Would it be an affront to build a coal-fired power plant there?

Trying to wedge the NYC BS into this thread, are we?

18 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:38:52pm

re: #12 Racer X

106 is the high for today in my neck 'o the woods. You?

19 Racer X  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:39:04pm

August 2010 has 5 Sundays, 5 Mondays, and 5 Tuesdays, all in one month. It happens once in 823 years.

20 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:39:33pm

re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Lord Humongous does not explain himself to the likes of you.

Forgive me....Ha!

21 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:40:32pm

re: #15 ralphieboy

The effects of addressing this properly-- just imagining it I feel like an MGM musical.

22 rhino2  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:40:34pm

I would like to submit "Conservatives Warming up to Global Warming?" as an alternate title to the post.

/

23 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:40:38pm

re: #19 Racer X

August 2010 has 5 Sundays, 5 Mondays, and 5 Tuesdays, all in one month. It happens once in 823 years.

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

24 Racer X  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:40:54pm

re: #18 Slumbering Behemoth

106 is the high for today in my neck 'o the woods. You?

105 outside right now. Should go up another few degrees. SoCal.

25 MinisterO  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:40:59pm

I'm afraid they'll just retreat to another of the standard denial positions.

It's not happening
It's not caused by human activity

A warmer world will be fine, even better
There's nothing we can do about it
It's too expensive to address it now
...

26 brownbagj  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:41:03pm

re: #11 ralphieboy

Jeez, what did they put in these guys' sodapop? Pretty soon they will be claiming that gays are not mentally ill and that sex education does not lead to teen promiscuity.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

27 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:41:13pm

re: #17 b_sharp

Trying to wedge the NYC BS into this thread, are we?

There is but one Ground Zero and it is Hallowed Ground.

/

28 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:41:36pm

re: #19 Racer X

August 2010 has 5 Sundays, 5 Mondays, and 5 Tuesdays, all in one month. It happens once in 823 years.

I'm so stealing that for the dart game and
beer fest this weekend!!!

29 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:42:29pm

re: #19 Racer X

August 2010 has 5 Sundays, 5 Mondays, and 5 Tuesdays, all in one month. It happens once in 823 years.


no wonder this August seems endless...

30 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:42:46pm

re: #24 Racer X

You in the High Desert or the Valley??

31 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:42:51pm

re: #28 reloadingisnotahobby

I'm so stealing that for the dart game and
beer fest this weekend!!!

But doesn't the calendar go in like a 12 year cycle?

32 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:43:04pm

Skeptic Arguments and What the Science Says

Here is a summary of skeptic arguments, sorted by recent popularity vs what science says. Note that the one line responses are just a starting point - click the response for a more detailed response. You can also view them sorted by taxonomy, in a print-friendly version, or with fixed numbers you can use for permanent references.

33 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:43:12pm

re: #19 Racer X

August 2010 has 5 Sundays, 5 Mondays, and 5 Tuesdays, all in one month. It happens once in 823 years.

Wake me up when we get 5 Fridays, 5 Saturdays and 5 Federal Holiday Mondays in one month! /

34 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:44:06pm

re: #24 Racer X

105 outside right now. Should go up another few degrees. SoCal.

Central Cal here. I feel your pain. But, can you at least smell the ocean where you're at?

35 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:44:40pm

Glad to see these guys coming around. I did find one unsettling factiod- In addition to the modern world getting away from oil, the undeveloped desperate bare existence third world must quit burning all that wood, and the third world oil producers must quit flaring off all the gas.

"Campfire" cultures will have to change. That will be as culturally devastating as the Navajo being put on reservations and now having gambling casinos. We must get Co2 emissions well below what the globe can absorb, or we just lock in place the damage already done.

36 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:44:49pm

re: #31 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But doesn't the calendar go in like a 12 year cycle?

I am so NOT researching this ...so there!

37 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:45:22pm

re: #33 DaddyG

Wake me up when we get 5 Fridays, 5 Saturdays and 5 Federal Holiday Mondays in one month! /


Come to May in Germany, you get May 1st, long weekends for the Feast of the Ascension and Corpus Christi (they both fall on a Thursday, so most folks take one of their 27-odd days of paid holiday and make a long weekend out of it) and a long weekend for Pentecost Monday.

38 rhino2  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:45:53pm

It finally cooled off here in North Carolina (80 degrees right now), and just in time too - I have to finish moving in to my new place today.

39 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:45:54pm

re: #16 mr.fusion

and check this out

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Earlier today, the Huffington Post’s Amanda Terkel reported that Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele “distanced the Republican Party from SB-1070″ in an interview with Univision. Steele attempted to reassure Latino viewers that Arizona’s new immigration law is not “a reflection of an entire country, nor is it a reflection of an entire political party.” Wonk Room observed that, over the past week, at least two other Republicans have appeared on Spanish-language television echoing Steele’s remarks: Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart (R-FL) and Florida senatorial candidate Marco Rubio (R).

Well I can hear it now that Rubio is a RINO and only looking out for his race.

40 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:46:04pm

More conservatives would be willing to accept the science of anthropomorphic global warming if fewer liberals were using it to promote additional federal bureucracy and even wealth redistribution schemes.

41 Racer X  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:46:37pm

re: #30 reloadingisnotahobby

You in the High Desert or the Valley??

SFV
re: #34 Slumbering Behemoth

Central Cal here. I feel your pain. But, can you at least smell the ocean where you're at?


I wish!

42 rhino2  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:47:34pm

re: #40 DaddyG

More conservatives would be willing to accept the science of anthropomorphic anthropogenic global warming if fewer liberals were using it to promote additional federal bureucracy and even wealth redistribution schemes.

ftfy

43 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:47:39pm

re: #40 DaddyG

More conservatives would be willing to accept the science of anthropomorphic global warming if fewer liberals were using it to promote additional federal bureucracy and even wealth redistribution schemes.

You mean they would accept it in theory if those liberals just stopped putting forward proposals to combat it?

Of course, the Free Market (TM) will solve this the same efficient way it solved the financial crisis and the Gulf oil spill...

44 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:47:54pm

Gee Whiz - you think I could spell bureaucracy. I'm a bureaucrat after all.

PIMF

45 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:48:03pm

re: #41 Racer X

SFV
re: #34 Slumbering Behemoth


I wish!

San Fernando Valley...ah..That explains the "Duuh"!
LOL!

46 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:48:38pm

re: #40 DaddyG

More conservatives would be willing to accept the science of anthropomorphic global warming if fewer liberals were using it to promote additional federal bureucracy and even wealth redistribution schemes.

If politics takes priority over science for people, they'll never really believe it.

47 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:48:53pm

re: #42 rhino2

ftfy


Yeah that word too. Maybe the kids would support anthropomorphic global warming.

"Hey kids its Mr Carbon offset!"

48 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:49:15pm

re: #36 reloadingisnotahobby

I am so NOT researching this ...so there!

In that case, you missed celebrating the feast of Kragar day, the day of my miraculous appearance on this earth, you may bow and pay proper reverance...NOW.

49 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:49:17pm

re: #33 DaddyG

Wake me up when we get 5 Fridays, 5 Saturdays and 5 Federal Holiday Mondays in one month! /

LOL.
Actually, November prolly comes close to that.

50 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:49:58pm

re: #40 DaddyG

More conservatives would be willing to accept the science of anthropomorphic global warming if fewer liberals were using it to promote additional federal bureucracy and even wealth redistribution schemes.

Translation: "More conservatives would be willing to accept the science of anthropomorphic global warming if fewer liberals were suggesting that we do anything about it."

51 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:50:14pm

re: #48 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

All I have is...Bu..Bud...BudLight my Lord!

52 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:50:28pm

re: #44 DaddyG

Gee Whiz - you think I could spell bureaucracy. I'm a bureaucrat after all.

PIMF

I work in vulnerability assessment and yet vulnerability/vulnerabilities is my most misspelled word in emails.

53 MinisterO  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:50:30pm

re: #19 Racer X

August 2010 has 5 Sundays, 5 Mondays, and 5 Tuesdays, all in one month. It happens once in 823 years.

Huh?

2010
2004
1999
1993
1986
1979
...

54 RadicalModerate  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:50:35pm

re: #19 Racer X

August 2010 has 5 Sundays, 5 Mondays, and 5 Tuesdays, all in one month. It happens once in 823 years.

Might want to recheck that, unless August 2005 took place a lot longer ago than I remember it.

55 webevintage  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:50:39pm

re: #38 rhino2

It finally cooled off here in North Carolina (80 degrees right now), and just in time too - I have to finish moving in to my new place today.

It is amazing how all most a month of over 100 degree weather makes 90 feel wonderful.

56 yasharki  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:51:04pm

Old news is so exciting!

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

57 RadicalModerate  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:51:11pm

re: #54 RadicalModerate

2004, not 2005 dammit.

58 rhino2  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:51:20pm

re: #50 elbruce

Translation: "More conservatives would be willing to accept the science of anthropomorphic global warming if fewer liberals were suggesting that we do anything about it."

Again, anthropogenic.

/word nazi - out!

59 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:51:43pm

re: #51 reloadingisnotahobby

All I have is...Bu..Bud...BudLight my Lord!

Thats a shame. Please report to your local motivation center, room 332a, sit in the red chair.

I'm so very sorry.

60 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:52:24pm

re: #54 RadicalModerate

Might want to recheck that, unless August 2005 took place a lot longer ago than I remember it.

He never said he meant human years!

61 rhino2  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:53:03pm

re: #55 webevintage

It is amazing how all most a month of over 100 degree weather makes 90 feel wonderful.

Yeah and we get the worst of both worlds here - it's 100 degrees, and 90% humidity.

Makes 120 in Arizona feel like springtime in San Diego.

62 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:53:37pm

re: #16 mr.fusion

and check this out

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Earlier today, the Huffington Post’s Amanda Terkel reported that Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele “distanced the Republican Party from SB-1070″ in an interview with Univision. Steele attempted to reassure Latino viewers that Arizona’s new immigration law is not “a reflection of an entire country, nor is it a reflection of an entire political party.” Wonk Room observed that, over the past week, at least two other Republicans have appeared on Spanish-language television echoing Steele’s remarks: Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart (R-FL) and Florida senatorial candidate Marco Rubio (R).

From your link:

Watch this week’s Spanish-language interviews:

That's what they say in Spanish. I'd like to see Steele say that in another forum. Rubio is consistent in being against something similar in Florida, but it looks like he's OK with AZ doing it.

63 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:54:13pm

re: #43 ralphieboy

You mean they would accept it in theory if those liberals just stopped putting forward proposals to combat it?

Of course, the Free Market (TM) will solve this the same efficient way it solved the financial crisis and the Gulf oil spill...

I did not say that. There are many proposals to combat it that aren't so politically charged as creating a new market with a liscense to pollute. Some very capitalist and conservative folks I know are all for biofuels from brown sources (food oils) and non food crops. Conservation through better transportation and construction is also a very attractive idea to captalists. In that sense the market will support a greener lifestyle.

If you make the issue a political football all parties are less inclined to use the science as a good foundation for progress and more inclined to discount the scientific results. I deal with the pheonomenon all the time when giving data feedback to organizations. If you gore their ox (pun intended) they will start to look for flaws in the data. If you give them solutions, point out areas for improvement and assist them to get to the next level they will accept it much more readlily.

64 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:54:52pm

It would be awesome if there were no costs associated with changing the energy basis of our entire society. I'm sure if that were the case, not even the most "pro-business" conservative would be against it. Unfortunately, that just can't happen. We have to raise the costs of dirty energy and actually support alternative forms.

Of course right-wingers are going to howl "wealth transfer!" over that. But the alternative is that the Earth just keeps getting hotter forever. Nobody's economic principles are going to keep them cool when we're all standing on a cinder.

65 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:55:40pm

re: #54 RadicalModerate

Might want to recheck that, unless August 2005 took place a lot longer ago than I remember it.

Mercury years. You Terrans are so provincial! /

66 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:55:56pm

Weening myself free from soda is driving me fucking nuts. I would choke a man for a Dr. Pepper right now.

67 Racer X  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:56:19pm

re: #53 MinisterO

Huh?

2010
2004
1999
1993
1986
1979
...

I hate it when an email I forward on has faulty info.

68 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:57:41pm

re: #66 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You sent me to the "Red chair" for bringing BUD!
TYRANT!

69 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:58:03pm

3 Colombian teens on Facebook hit list killed in past 10 days

Three teens who were on a 69-name hit list posted on Facebook have been killed in the past 10 days in a southwestern Colombian town, officials say.

Police say they do not know who posted the list or why the names are on it.

"It is still not clear," Colombian national police spokesman Wilson Baquero told CNN. "This is part of the investigation."

But officials note that a criminal gang known as Los Rastrojos and a Marxist guerrilla group called the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia operate in the area.

The hit list on Facebook, which was posted August 17, gave the people named three days to leave the town of Puerto Asis or be executed, said Volmar Perez Ortiz, a federal official whose title is defender of the public.

Police at first thought the posting was a joke, Perez said in a statement issued Saturday. But the publication of a second list with 31 additional names led authorities to convene a special security meeting Friday, Perez said.

The posting of the lists and the meetings occurred after the first two killings, which took place August 15, Perez said.

On that day, officials say, 16-year-old student Diego Ferney Jaramillo and 17-year-old CD retailer Eibart Alejandro Ruiz Munoz were shot and killed while riding a motorcycle on the road between Puerto Asis and the town of Puerto Caicedo.

Both their names were later found on the first published hit list.

70 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:58:34pm

re: #67 Racer X

I hate it when an email I forward on has faulty info.

Know how am I going to impress the dolts I play darts with!!
Light my farts??

71 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:58:48pm

Is there anything that's not politics in America?

72 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:58:54pm

re: #67 Racer X

There was a really amusingly dumb one about how Mars was going to appear as big as the moon due to the planets passing close together. Someone at my old work had a printout of it up outside her cube.

I let her know it was a hoax.

73 rhino2  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:59:03pm

re: #66 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Weening myself free from soda is driving me fucking nuts. I would choke a man for a Dr. Pepper right now.

Giving up the Pepper? You are a stronger man than I.

I did limit myself to drinking it with a meal, lunch usually, instead of just having a can going at any point of the day. Save a bunch of money that way too.

74 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:59:08pm

re: #68 reloadingisnotahobby

You sent me to the "Red chair" for bringing BUD!
TYRANT!

The stains are harder to see on the red chair. The janitorial staff was complaining.

75 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:59:15pm

re: #71 Spare O'Lake

Is there anything that's not politics in America?


......No...

76 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 12:59:54pm

re: #63 DaddyG

I did not say that. There are many proposals to combat it that aren't so politically charged as creating a new market with a liscense to pollute. Some very capitalist and conservative folks I know are all for biofuels from brown sources (food oils) and non food crops. Conservation through better transportation and construction is also a very attractive idea to captalists. In that sense the market will support a greener lifestyle.

They won't support it as long as polluting is cheaper. I'm not lambasting them over that; corporate executives are by required law to serve only the interests of their shareholder's profits over the current quarter. The only way to make any change happen is to add a cost to doing it the wrong way, and deduct from the cost of doing it the right way.

Cap-and-trade was already a compromise position from a direct carbon tax. This reminds me a lot of the health care debate when the left started "compromising" before negotiation had even started, then the right started attacking the compromise position, etc. So if you don't like cap-and-trade, let's go back to direct carbon taxes with no trading. I'd be comfortable with that.

The notion of an energy credit exchange market strikes me as completely arbitrarily priced, based on where the cap is and what the tax is for exceeding it, which would then vary between industries, etc.

77 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:00:10pm

re: #64 elbruce

It would be awesome if there were no costs associated with changing the energy basis of our entire society. I'm sure if that were the case, not even the most "pro-business" conservative would be against it. Unfortunately, that just can't happen. We have to raise the costs of dirty energy and actually support alternative forms.

Of course right-wingers are going to howl "wealth transfer!" over that. But the alternative is that the Earth just keeps getting hotter forever. Nobody's economic principles are going to keep them cool when we're all standing on a cinder.


Human beings being what they are you are better off looking for ways to make clean energy more afforable. Punishing people for using dirty energy (and taxes and fees are seen as punishment) is less motivating to change than a positive result. That's just basic human behavior.

You aren't going to get people to give up cheap power and goods no matter what their political affiliation. Its all well and good when you can afford to shop at the green market and avoid Wal-Mart but the vast majority of Americans are in the Wal-Mart price bracket. Even more with the current economy.

78 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:01:18pm

re: #73 rhino2

Giving up the Pepper? You are a stronger man than I.

I did limit myself to drinking it with a meal, lunch usually, instead of just having a can going at any point of the day. Save a bunch of money that way too.

I've been drink 2-3 cans a day, sometimes more, for way too long.

79 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:02:16pm

re: #78 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Your doing the right thing!
That shits bad for ya!!
Here...have a beer!

80 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:02:59pm

re: #75 reloadingisnotahobby

...No...

...oh...

81 rhino2  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:03:13pm

re: #80 Spare O'Lake

...oh...

...dots...

82 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:03:30pm

re: #79 reloadingisnotahobby

Your doing the right thing!
That shits bad for ya!!
Here...have a beer!

I haven't touched alcohol in the last 8 years.

83 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:03:36pm

re: #77 DaddyG

Human beings being what they are you are better off looking for ways to make clean energy more afforable. Punishing people for using dirty energy (and taxes and fees are seen as punishment) is less motivating to change than a positive result. That's just basic human behavior.

OK, so we subsidize clean energy development. Where's the money going to come from? Last I checked, America's big fat credit card is just about maxed out right now.

If we take 1/2 the amount in carbon taxes and use that 1/2 to subsidize clean energy, that gives the full effect while paying for itself.


re: #77 DaddyG

You aren't going to get people to give up cheap power and goods no matter what their political affiliation. Its all well and good when you can afford to shop at the green market and avoid Wal-Mart but the vast majority of Americans are in the Wal-Mart price bracket. Even more with the current economy.

I agree. This just goes to prove that the problem isn't going to fix itself, which is what you seem to be advocating.

84 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:04:41pm

re: #80 Spare O'Lake

Our whole County is only 17000 people and they can make
PeeWee Soccer Political.....Asses!

85 iossarian  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:05:30pm

re: #77 DaddyG

Human beings being what they are you are better off looking for ways to make clean energy more afforable.

I've often heard this from people who bemoan the fact that dealing with climate change is a "political football", but what does it actually mean?

If you're saying we should encourage clean energy research, then that's fine but it will cost money, which has to come from somewhere.

It does seem that the most logical way to encourage clean energy is to tax dirty energy and direct the revenue towards clean energy research, but maybe there's a more "free market" solution that I'm unaware of?

86 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:05:34pm

re: #76 elbruce
I think we're having the old carrot stick argument. I would agree that a direct tax on pollution would be better if it was directly linked to paying for remediation and prevention efforts. Sort of like an air superfund. That way its related to the real cost of a prduct or service.

If you want to change the heart and minds of people you will need to make that direct link between behavior and consequences. Creating artificial mechanisms to enforce policy will generate a lot of resistance.

87 rhino2  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:05:42pm

re: #82 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I haven't touched alcohol in the last 8 years.

S'ok, Dr. Pepper tastes a lot better than alcohol anyway.

88 Interesting Times  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:06:44pm

re: #63 DaddyG

Some very capitalist and conservative folks I know are all for biofuels from brown sources (food oils) and non food crops.

I put up a page earlier today about a study that mentioned biofuels serving as a potential carbon capture method. Other proposed "geoengineering" solutions to combat AGW don't appear to be very effective.

89 deranged cat  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:08:41pm

alright, keep'm comin!
re: #12 Racer X

Duh.

Its freaking HOT outside!


you're telling me! supposed to be 107 today.

90 Kragar  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:10:04pm

Children abused, killed as witches in Nigeria

Just after midnight, the pastor seized a woman's forehead with his large hand and she fell screaming and writhing on the ground. "Fire! Fire! Fire!" shouted the worshippers, raising their hands in the air.

Pastor Celestine Effiong's congregants are being delivered from what they firmly believe to be witchcraft. And in the darkness of the city and the villages beyond, similar shouts and screams echo from makeshift church to makeshift church.

"I have been delivered from witches and wizards today!" exclaimed one exhausted-looking woman.

Pastors in southeast Nigeria claim illness and poverty are caused by witches who bring terrible misfortune to those around them. And those denounced as witches must be cleansed through deliverance or cast out.

As daylight breaks, and we travel out to the rural villages it becomes apparent the most vulnerable to this stigmatization of witchcraft are children.

A crowd gathered around two brothers and their sister. Tears streamed down their mother's face as she cast out her children from the family, accusing them of causing the premature deaths of two of their siblings with black magic.

...

"Religious leaders capitalize on the ignorance of some parents in the villages just to make some money off them," said Lucky Inyang, project coordinator for 'Stepping Stones Nigeria'.

"They can say your child is a witch and if you bring the child to the church we can deliver the child but eventually they don't deliver the children... The parents go back to the pastor and say, 'why is it you have not been able to deliver the child' and the pastor says 'Oh - this one has gone past deliverance - they've eaten too much flesh so you have to throw the child out.'"

And most pastors charge a fee for deliverance -- anywhere from $300 to $2,000.

91 yasharki  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:10:26pm

re: #85 iossarian

Tax breaks, can they not encourage green energy research (or rather implementation at this point)?

92 Winny Spencer  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:10:35pm

re: #70 reloadingisnotahobby

There are Americans who play darts?

/

93 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:10:54pm

I'm responding to comments that are two or three comments back in the queue. Sorry about that.

I don't think the solution is purely regulatory and I don't think the solution is purely free market. Its going to take both, which is why a continued discussion without demonization (evil corporations, evil government) is necessary. Until then people will naturally retrench using the latest study that suits their cause regardless of the validity and reliability of said study.

I'm not debating the science. I am looking at it from an organizational dynamic point of view.

Or as Mary Poppins said "a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down..."

94 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:10:58pm

re: #86 DaddyG

The Billions we're sending to the Saudis yearly would provide funding for research.
Using our own oil would save Billions while more effecient
power is developed for Industry and Transportation....
I'll jump 100% onboard when an 18 wheeler can haul 80,000
lbs of food on something other than fossil fuels!

95 mr.fusion  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:12:22pm

re: #83 elbruce

OK, so we subsidize clean energy development. Where's the money going to come from?

How about we take it from the $4B a year we send to big oil in the form of subsidies?

I swear.....some people act like oil is practically free

96 iossarian  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:12:30pm

re: #91 yasharki

Tax breaks, can they not encourage green energy research (or rather implementation at this point)?

Are you saying that selective tax breaks (for clean energy research) are a good policy tool, but selective tax increases (on dirty energy production) are bad?

97 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:12:40pm

re: #88 publicityStunted

The problem with biofuels is that they may actually cause more carbon emissions than they prevent. It's particularly bad in 3d world countries where clear cutting forests to plant biofuel crops is destroying sensitive habitats and the regulatory regime to protect those habitats simply isn't there. There's also the issue of how much energy is required to create the biofuel and transport it where it can be combined with regular fuels. Throw in the problems with using food stocks for biofuels and you can actually increase food costs for millions who can least afford it.

Now, if the biofuels were created from algae and other biomatter that doesn't affect food supplies and doesn't result in clear cutting forests, we might be on to something.

98 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:12:47pm

re: #92 Winny Spencer

There are Americans who play darts?

/

Yup...Real darts with evil STEEL tips and Hogs hair boards!
....And we score with our BRAINS and a piece of chalk!

99 iossarian  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:13:29pm

re: #98 reloadingisnotahobby

Yup...Real darts with evil STEEL tips and Hogs hair boards!
...And we score with our BRAINS and a piece of chalk!

Do you go for bullseye or treble-20?

100 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:13:46pm

re: #94 reloadingisnotahobby

The Billions we're sending to the Saudis yearly would provide funding for research.
Using our own oil would save Billions while more effecient
power is developed for Industry and Transportation...
I'll jump 100% onboard when an 18 wheeler can haul 80,000
lbs of food on something other than fossil fuels!


I think ultimately it will be a mixed solution. Solar and nuclear electric grids for local trips, rail for long hauls, something we haven't even invented yet for goodness knows what...

101 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:15:03pm

re: #96 iossarian

Are you saying that selective tax breaks (for clean energy research) are a good policy tool, but selective tax increases (on dirty energy production) are bad?


I didn't get that any more than I think promoters of conservation are opposed to clean fuel research. There is too much reading into what people say on this thread.

102 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:16:43pm

re: #100 DaddyG

Rail is already used to transport most cargo long haul in the US - moreso than in other countries (we've got more track miles laid than others). The problem is that passenger rail shares those tracks, and can't accommodate the high speed rail systems. To separate the systems would require significant costs - acquiring new rights-of-way and that runs headlong into NIMBY. Add the electrification costs to HSR and you have to not only provide additional power generation (see NE corridors ongoing problems with adequate power with an antiquated system) but transmission (and both have NIMBY to blame too).

103 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:16:54pm

re: #99 iossarian

Do you go for bullseye or treble-20?


Depends on the game we're playing...Usually 301 or 501.
Must double and double out!

104 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:17:07pm

re: #97 lawhawk
Beware the law of unintended consequences. Another reason to move very slowly into areas like social engineering and government oversight. I certainly don't trust politicians to make decisions as good as the scientific and business community when it comes to the solutions. Incent but don't control.

105 iossarian  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:17:42pm

re: #101 DaddyG

I didn't get that any more than I think promoters of conservation are opposed to clean fuel research. There is too much reading into what people say on this thread.

Sorry - I was responding to the other poster who seemed to be promoting tax breaks as an alternative policy tool (in response to my question about what a more "free market" solution would look like).

I agree with you that both government and corporations have a role to play in solving the problem, but people need to remember what those roles are. Government should set up the incentives correctly so that corporations are properly motivated to go out and do the work.

106 yasharki  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:18:08pm

re: #96 iossarian

No, or no comment I guess...

107 Racer X  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:18:49pm

re: #72 Obdicut

There was a really amusingly dumb one about how Mars was going to appear as big as the moon due to the planets passing close together. Someone at my old work had a printout of it up outside her cube.

I let her know it was a hoax.

I should have known better. I don't believe anything on the internets anymore. This one sounded benign enough to be true. Oops!

108 iossarian  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:19:53pm

re: #103 reloadingisnotahobby

Depends on the game we're playing...Usually 301 or 501.
Must double and double out!

I used to play a lot of double-in, but TBH I think straight down and double-out is more fair, especially at the level most of us play at.

I more meant that, my yardstick for whether people are "proper" darts players or not is whether they go for treble-20 when just trying to score.

Darts snobbery ahoy!

109 Racer X  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:19:55pm

re: #89 deranged cat

alright, keep'm comin!

you're telling me! supposed to be 107 today.

Thermometer now says 107.

Is HOT!

110 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:20:36pm

re: #105 iossarian
Sorry I misread you. I think we're pretty much in agreement based on your last statement.

Even as a conservative I think we're woefully underinvested in good public infrastructure. I am incredibly frustrated by Atlanta and the state of Georgia's lack of foresight when it comes to that. We're wasting tons of $$ and polluting heavily when we could be providing better transportation. The current budget has our bus service as risk and we won't even discuss rail solutions even though the rails exist in and out of the city. The paving companies have the DOT board here in a headlock and it isn't pretty.

111 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:21:04pm

re: #86 DaddyG

I think we're having the old carrot stick argument.

You'd be amazed how well it works to use both.


re: #86 DaddyG

If you want to change the heart and minds of people you will need to make that direct link between behavior and consequences. Creating artificial mechanisms to enforce policy will generate a lot of resistance.

The first sentence there sounds like you're supporting carbon taxes. I can't imagine what else that could refer to. The second sentence sounds like you're not. I have no idea what you're for or aginst there.

112 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:23:25pm

re: #97 lawhawk

The problem with biofuels is that they may actually cause more carbon emissions than they prevent.

Everything I've ever heard of that's been hailed as the "magic bullet" on nergy (and biofeuls were for a little while) ends up having unintended consequences.

This why as a nation, I think our policy should be to develop a diversified energy portfolio. At least a little bit of everything we can think of. For the same reason that investors diversify their assets. We can then shift capacity to cover for unintended consequences as they pop up, while we work to mitigate those consequences.

113 Interesting Times  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:23:49pm

re: #97 lawhawk

Now, if the biofuels were created from algae and other biomatter that doesn't affect food supplies and doesn't result in clear cutting forests, we might be on to something.

That's exactly the kind of biofuel I mentioned in my page:

Experts believe that an acre of algae may provide nearly 500 gallons of biofuel/year as compared to 70 gallons/year from an acre of soy or corn... Algae cultivation for fuel production is akin to killing two birds with one stone. The process of algae growth absorbs carbon dioxide from the environment and the processing of algae in turn leads to clean fuel.
114 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:24:06pm

re: #111 elbruce
Taxes beats trade schemes- but the taxes have to be directly applied to pollution mitigation not used as yet another government trust fund. By artificial mechanism I mean fees and taxes that don't have a real direct link to the actual behavior we're trying to modify. Trading in credits is too many steps removed from actual pollution remediation.

115 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:24:28pm

re: #110 DaddyG

Even as a conservative I think we're woefully underinvested in good public infrastructure. I am incredibly frustrated by Atlanta and the state of Georgia's lack of foresight when it comes to that. We're wasting tons of $$ and polluting heavily when we could be providing better transportation. The current budget has our bus service as risk and we won't even discuss rail solutions even though the rails exist in and out of the city. The paving companies have the DOT board here in a headlock and it isn't pretty.

Portland was already pretty heavy into light rail, and it works so well that we're adding more lines left and righ.

116 Winny Spencer  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:26:57pm

re: #108 iossarian

Do you guys follow the PDC-circuit? I realize most don't have British tv-channels but....
Seriously, darts = the greatest tv-sport of all time.

117 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:28:20pm

re: #113 publicityStunted
Hey kids the car is out of fuel. Go scrape the fish tank! /

118 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:28:40pm

I gotta say, Charles has been ahead of the curve on this one for a long time.

119 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:30:01pm

re: #114 DaddyG

Taxes beats trade schemes

Yep. But if Dems put direct carbon taxes back on the table, the GOP would be screaming about it and begging for the trade schemes back. Some people just can't be pleased.

120 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:30:27pm

When I see the GOP reverse its BS on this issue, I might believe this is something other than a few rumblings on the fringes.

121 yasharki  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:30:27pm

Why even consider burning "fuels" when we have inexhaustible sources of energy like the sun, wind, geothermal, nuclear, and on and on and on?!?

122 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:30:34pm

re: #1 ralphieboy

Greenland as "Global Warming Ground Zero".

Would it be an affront to build a coal-fired power plant there?

Well, yes. The soot would contribute to darkening the otherwise white ice, accelerating the melting of the greenland ice cap.

But seriously, it's about ***ing time that conservatives got off the know-nothing train. We are not, and can never be, the party of don't worry, be happy.

We are the obstructors, the nay-sayers. Everybody hates us for the same reason everybody hates cod liver oil and lima beans. The only thing that separates us from being useless eaters and shitters is, if it be even that, that we are the reality-based party.

We tell you that cap and trade is no way to go about controlling global warming. We tell you that while homeownership is a good thing, it's not the right answer for everyone. Same with college. Same with extending credit. We inveigh against payday loans, state-run lotteries, and casinos, all built around the premise that a sucker is born every minute and should never be given an even break.

When it comes to foreign policy and the military, we say trust, but verify, and in the meantime, keep your power dry. [Keeping the powder dry was the deciding factor in the British/French battle near Calcutta that decided who would establish, for a time, an Empire in India.]

We tell you that taxes can only go so high, that spending sprees and deficits cost more than they're worth in the long run.


And then we turn around and mouth stupid lies and homilies about how the climate is too big to be influenced by man. This, in the teeth of all the evidence and with the sorry record of mass extinctions, dust bowls, and deforestation of a continent or two as evidence to the contrary. We betray our forbears and burden our descendants. We make of ourselves a laughing stock, and all our other talk about taking the long view runs hollow.

I hate us too.

123 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:30:37pm

re: #118 Spare O'Lake

I gotta say, Charles has been ahead of the curve on this one for a long time.


Agreed. The revelation for me was how many of the studies were being skewed by various lobbys. It would be a far better thing to embrace the truth of our situation then look for how to make it better. I have to believe that there is tremendous profit in smarter cleaner energy grids and fuels if the industry would embrace change as opposed to fighting the data.

124 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:32:37pm

re: #121 yasharki

Why even consider burning "fuels" when we have inexhaustible sources of energy like the sun, wind, geothermal, nuclear, and on and on and on?!?


Ease of use per unit of energy, current infrastructure vs. having to reinvest, fear of the unknown. I can think of hundreds of reasons people aren't working together for change and the reasons are not all conservative or liberal.

125 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:33:11pm

re: #121 yasharki

Why even consider burning "fuels" when we have inexhaustible sources of energy like the sun, wind, geothermal, nuclear, and on and on and on?!?

As a rule, if your solution doesn't kill somebody, destroy something, oppress someone, or impoverish someone else, the right wing ain't interested in it. Attach a slaughterhouse to your windmill and they might be interested.

126 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:34:22pm

re: #125 elbruce

As a rule, if your solution doesn't kill somebody, destroy something, oppress someone, or impoverish someone else, the right wing ain't interested in it. Attach a slaughterhouse to your windmill and they might be interested.

Your meds are wearing off... asshole.

127 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:35:26pm

re: #125 elbruce

As a rule, if your solution doesn't kill somebody, destroy something, oppress someone, or impoverish someone else, the right wing ain't interested in it. Attach a slaughterhouse to your windmill and they might be interested.


Yeah. That attitude will cause conservatives to flock towards clean energy solutions and global warming studies.

Partisanship is not going to help. That was my original point.

128 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:36:01pm

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

Your meds are wearing off... asshole.

I see the three stooges chimed in.

129 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:36:07pm

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

Temper, temper.

130 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:36:45pm

re: #124 DaddyG

I can think of hundreds of reasons people aren't working together for change and the reasons are not all conservative or liberal.

I can say that by and large, liberals advocate working together for change, and conservatives oppose it.

At least the kind of conservatives we have in control of the talking points and party line; if this had been back in the day, somebody like Nixon or Reagan or even Bush 41 would have been solidly on the right side of the science and economics on this.

131 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:37:48pm

re: #127 DaddyG

Yeah. That attitude will cause conservatives to flock towards clean energy solutions and global warming studies.

Partisanship is not going to help. That was my original point.

Heh. I'll leave it to Obama to extend his hand in friendship. But judging from how chewed up is hand is by now, I'm inclined to go the other way.

132 iossarian  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:37:48pm

re: #116 Winny Spencer

Do you guys follow the PDC-circuit? I realize most don't have British tv-channels but...
Seriously, darts = the greatest tv-sport of all time.

Phil Power's on another planet right now...

We don't know if that planet has water...

We don't know if it has air...

But we know it has lightning:

PHIL'S THROWING LIGHTNING DARTS!!!

-- Sid Waddell

133 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:38:54pm

re: #130 elbruce

Modern-day liberals-- the Democrats, that is-- do work together for change. It's a pity they're not very good at it, though.

But not denying the science, not ginning up fake attacks on scientists like 'climategate', not claiming that CRU violated scientific ethics-- at least they've got that going for them.

134 Coracle  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:40:59pm

re: #128 Walter L. Newton

I see the three stooges chimed in.

I see we're big fans of civil discourse here. elbruce's sarcasm in that particular case doesn't do anything to advance understanding or cooperation between either side. But your ad hominem is kerosene on a match. If it's being a stooge to call you on it, then nyuck nyuck nyuck.

135 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:41:47pm

re: #85 iossarian

I've often heard this from people who bemoan the fact that dealing with climate change is a "political football", but what does it actually mean?

If you're saying we should encourage clean energy research, then that's fine but it will cost money, which has to come from somewhere.

It does seem that the most logical way to encourage clean energy is to tax dirty energy and direct the revenue towards clean energy research, but maybe there's a more "free market" solution that I'm unaware of?

That right there is good enough. We'd have to include efficiency efforts and better transmission infrastructure along with clean-at-the-source energy, though.

Some of the take from any tax on energy should be plowed back into mitigating the impact on the poor. Give everyone, rich or poor, a dollar amount comparable to the tax hit a low income but tolerably efficient consumer pays. That way, the poor can break even, or even come out a bit ahead.

136 mkelly  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:43:11pm

Physicist Dr. Denis Rancourt, a former professor and environmental science researcher at the University of Ottawa, has officially bailed out of the man-made global warming movement.

Former Greenpeace member and Finnish scientist Dr. Jarl R. Ahlbeck, a lecturer of environmental technology and a chemical engineer at Abo Akademi University in Finland who has authored 200 scientific publications, is also skeptical of man-made climate doom.

You got a newspaper person my side got scientist.

137 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:43:11pm

re: #130 elbruce I tend to define liberal and conservative much more broadly than the current legislature or lobbying groups.

The American political spectrum is not that far divided yet and it would be smart not to take polarizing stands with rhetoric or actions.

138 iossarian  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:43:15pm

Working with conservatives, the ongoing saga:

1910: Yes, yes, let's try to find a bipartisan way of allowing women to vote.

1950: Yes, yes, let's try to find a bipartisan way of ending segregation.

2010: Yes, yes, let's try to find a bipartisan way of allowing gay people to get married.

Works like a charm, every time.

139 garhighway  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:45:25pm

re: #136 mkelly

You got a newspaper person my side got scientist.

You finally got one? That's great!

140 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:46:14pm

When the "my political party is holier than thou" comments begin the discourse is pretty much boned.

I'm off to the next thread.

141 Coracle  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:54:32pm

re: #136 mkelly

So glad you could find two. I'm sure you can find another couple handfuls if you look real hard. They are, and will continue to remain the dwindling minority as evidence continues to pile up in study after study, measurement after measurement, paper after paper.

A higher percentage of people believe the demonstrably wrong 'fact' that the President is a Muslim than climate scientists who doubt human-caused climate change.

But, You go ahead and cling to the 2-3% that 'invalidates" all that evidence. You've demonstrated again and again you have no interest in learning the science, and are impervious to explanation.

142 yasharki  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 1:55:58pm

re: #124 DaddyG

"Ease of use per unit of energy, current infrastructure vs. having to reinvest, fear of the unknown. I can think of hundreds of reasons people aren't working together for change and the reasons are not all conservative or liberal."

How does coal or oil makes electricity easier to use? Why and how can other sources of electricity impact current power infrastructure? Finally what's a "unit of energy" and how can it possibly be used easier or be feared by someone?

143 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 2:02:04pm

re: #140 DaddyG

When the "my political party is holier than thou" comments begin the discourse is pretty much boned.

I'm off to the next thread.

Magical Balance Fairy strikes again!

Yes, the GOP really does suck more than the Democrats right now.

There is no magical force keeping them always equal in terribleness.

144 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 2:07:37pm

re: #136 mkelly

Physicist Dr. Denis Rancourt, a former professor and environmental science researcher at the University of Ottawa, has officially bailed out of the man-made global warming movement.

Former Greenpeace member and Finnish scientist Dr. Jarl R. Ahlbeck, a lecturer of environmental technology and a chemical engineer at Abo Akademi University in Finland who has authored 200 scientific publications, is also skeptical of man-made climate doom.

You got a newspaper person my side got scientist.

You got one or two scientists. Scientists are mortal and thus subject to all the failings of mortals in general. Greed and gullibility, in particular.

Egotism, we have in more than the usual measure. When almost everyone sees the light, it' difficult to stand out. But if they're all wrong after all???


To an egotist, the temptation is enormous. You have a ready-made cheering squad, money, and a fame of sorts, all at your disposal, courtesy of those just itching for you to change sides and join their battle against orthodoxy.


And against truth. There's the rub. You have to either lose your mind or sell your soul.

145 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 2:09:36pm

My comment in #125 may be harsh in the context of this discussion, but I was thinking of a lot of issues across the board. "Today's leading conservatives" (and I don't necessarily include present company in that) are happy to pay for multiple wars, but bitterly oppose safety net programs. In Arizona, they continually support and re-elect sherriff Arpaio running his jail like a concentration camp, even though it's always vastly over budget not even including the $41M in successful lawsuits and settlements the county has been forced to pay out. When it comes to energy, all they're interested in discussing is petrochemicals and nuclear, and seem to pretend that wind/wave/solar doesn't even exist, regardless of comparative opportunity costs in either the short or long terms.

At some point, one has to look at all of that and conclude that they're all for spending money on causing harm of any kind, and bitterly opposed to spending money on mitigating harm of any kind.

146 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 2:11:53pm

re: #136 mkelly

You got a newspaper person my side got scientist.

We got this.

147 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 2:13:05pm

re: #142 yasharki

"Ease of use per unit of energy, current infrastructure vs. having to reinvest, fear of the unknown. I can think of hundreds of reasons people aren't working together for change and the reasons are not all conservative or liberal."

How does coal or oil makes electricity easier to use? Why and how can other sources of electricity impact current power infrastructure? Finally what's a "unit of energy" and how can it possibly be used easier or be feared by someone?


Coal and oil can be burned any time the utility needs it. Unlike wind and sunlight at the ground, these fossil fuels are not subject to the whims of nature

Wind power is intermittent. Balancing an electricity budget where income and outgo must be in balance every second is very difficult, and throwing in major new elements of chance makes it that much harder.


Why anyone would fear wind power beats me, but fears of nuclear power have some sort of thin foundation in fact.

148 Coracle  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 2:13:51pm

re: #145 elbruce

At some point, one has to look at all of that and conclude that they're all for spending money on causing harm of any kind, and bitterly opposed to spending money on mitigating harm of any kind.

That's one, in my opinion overly cynical, view of it. I don't think it's quiet that cruel. I believe the motivations are primarily about power, control and profit - on the scale of the next election cycle or two at the longest. It is a set of motivations woefully lacking in long view, or compassion. So not cruel - just selfish, shortsighted and often heartless.

149 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 2:19:55pm

re: #148 Coracle

That's one, in my opinion overly cynical, view of it. I don't think it's quiet that cruel.

If you were to propose some sort of government program of any kind, I could pretty much tell which way the wingnuts were going to go on it by merely asking the questions: "Does it harm people or help them? Does it build something or destroy something?"

It's an awful trend, but so far it's accurate across the board.

150 DaddyG  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 2:23:27pm

re: #143 Obdicut

Magical Balance Fairy strikes again!

Yes, the GOP really does suck more than the Democrats right now.

There is no magical force keeping them always equal in terribleness.

No magical balance fairy here, or equivocation. I'm just not into hearing how the GOP (as a whole) wants to kill children and pollute the environment while the Dems (as a whole) are reaching out in bipartisan cooperation for positive change. That's just BS.

151 elbruce  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 2:29:52pm

re: #150 DaddyG

I'm just not into hearing how the GOP (as a whole) wants to kill children and pollute the environment while the Dems (as a whole) are reaching out in bipartisan cooperation for positive change. That's just BS.

It certainly is, and I hope it stops soon.

152 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 2:30:11pm

re: #150 DaddyG

No magical balance fairy here, or equivocation. I'm just not into hearing how the GOP (as a whole) wants to kill children and pollute the environment while the Dems (as a whole) are reaching out in bipartisan cooperation for positive change. That's just BS.

The GOP, as a whole, really has been engaging in climate change denial. It really, really, really has.

153 yasharki  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 6:09:11pm

re: #147 lostlakehiker

"Coal and oil can be burned any time the utility needs it. Unlike wind and sunlight at the ground, these fossil fuels are not subject to the whims of nature"

I beg to differ, coal and oil are very limited resources (provided to us by that whim of nature you mentioned) diminished by their consumption, unlike sunlight and wind which will persist while our planet exists.

"Wind power is intermittent. Balancing an electricity budget where income and outgo must be in balance every second is very difficult, and throwing in major new elements of chance makes it that much harder."

Right, so you build windmills in more areas than one.....

154 MinisterO  Wed, Aug 25, 2010 7:59:50pm

I really love the Magical Balance Fairy. It is evidently very hard for a person to accept that his righteous heroes are liars and his leftist villains are not the fools he believes them to be. The MBF solves this dilemma nicely.


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