2 | Obdicut Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:11:48pm |
A lot of tech nerds are going to get to go on TV!
Remember the deodorant, guys, and zip those flies.
3 | darthstar Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:14:40pm |
re: #2 Obdicut
A lot of tech nerds are going to get to go on TV!
Remember the deodorant, guys, and zip those flies.
And don't forget to shoot the camera...after all, it's a "camera shoot"...
4 | SilentAlfa Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:17:07pm |
Reading the previous threads, people seem to have the idea that these guys are just a bunch of kids who are 'taking a break from a video game' to go fuck shit up on the internet because they are impulsive idiots and you know, keeping the web presence of major corporations like Visa under siege is just that easy!
It's not, these things take very highly motivated, highly skilled and coordinated teams.
5 | Walter L. Newton Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:22:10pm |
re: #4 SilentAlfa
Reading the previous threads, people seem to have the idea that these guys are just a bunch of kids who are 'taking a break from a video game' to go fuck shit up on the internet because they are impulsive idiots and you know, keeping the web presence of major corporations like Visa under siege is just that easy!
It's not, these things take very highly motivated, highly skilled and coordinated teams.
It takes a email blast to spread the word, or a forum, and enough children running about 4 lines of code to start a DOS attack on a site.
6 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:23:25pm |
re: #3 darthstar
And don't forget to shoot the camera...after all, it's a "camera shoot"...
Groan. Not more of that wretched 'Jersey Shore' jetsam...
7 | BishopX Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:23:47pm |
re: #4 SilentAlfa
Anon distributed a botnet client to which logs into an invite only IRC channel to coordinate their actions. It's the troll equivalent of folding@home. My guess is that there are only a few people who actually know what they're doing. Everyone else is just in it for the lulz.
8 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:24:43pm |
re: #7 BishopX
Anon distributed a botnet client to which logs into an invite only IRC channel to coordinate their actions. It's the troll equivalent of folding@home. My guess is that there are only a few people who actually know what they're doing. Everyone else is just in it for the lulz.
Um... what is folding@home?
9 | Walter L. Newton Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:25:54pm |
10 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:26:04pm |
re: #8 jamesfirecat
Um... what is folding@home?
Folding@home ("Folding at Home") (sometimes abbreviated as FAH or F@h) is a distributed computing (DC) project designed to perform computationally intensive simulations of protein folding and other molecular dynamics (MD), and to improve on the methods available to do so. It was launched on October 1, 2000, and is currently managed by the Pande Group, within Stanford University's chemistry department, under the supervision of Professor Vijay Pande.
Folding@home is the most powerful distributed computing cluster in the world, according to Guinness,[2] and one of the world's largest distributed computing projects.[3] The goal of the project is "to understand protein folding, misfolding, and related diseases."[4]
11 | Vicious Babushka Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:26:41pm |
re: #4 SilentAlfa
Reading the previous threads, people seem to have the idea that these guys are just a bunch of kids who are 'taking a break from a video game' to go fuck shit up on the internet because they are impulsive idiots and you know, keeping the web presence of major corporations like Visa under siege is just that easy!
It's not, these things take very highly motivated, highly skilled and coordinated teams.
People who are highly motivated, highly skilled, and have an attention span longer than a nanosecond are pulling down the big bucks as security consultants for major corporations. They are not pulling the equivalent of graffiti tags on subway cars.
12 | SilentAlfa Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:30:41pm |
re: #5 Walter L. Newton
It takes a email blast to spread the word, or a forum, and enough children running about 4 lines of code to start a DOS attack on a site.
Absolutely, assuming they limit themselves to this.
re: #8 jamesfirecat
Um... what is folding@home?
It's this project where researchers basically have you play this puzzle game to fold proteins as efficiently as possible to help them learn more about how proteins are folded.
13 | BishopX Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:30:59pm |
The BBC has a good overview of the difficulty prosecuting Assange.
-SNIP-
Mr Assange's lawyers could also argue in court that the Espionage Act does not apply to foreign nationals acting outside of US territory.But even getting Mr Assange to the US would prove troublesome, according to Jacques Semmelman, a New York lawyer and authority on extradition law.
Espionage is seen as a political crime, and political offences are not subject to extradition under the US-UK, US-Sweden and UK-Sweden treaties, Mr Semmelman said.
14 | SilentAlfa Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:33:56pm |
re: #11 Alouette
People who are highly motivated, highly skilled, and have an attention span longer than a nanosecond are pulling down the big bucks as security consultants for major corporations. They are not pulling the equivalent of graffiti tags on subway cars.
ok im wrong :(
15 | Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:34:31pm |
re: #10 Varek Raith
...snip
Folding@home is the most powerful distributed computing cluster in the world, according to Guinness,[2] and one of the world's largest distributed computing projects.[3] The goal of the project is "to understand protein folding, misfolding, and related diseases."[4]
The Mima.
The inventor was himself completely dumbstruck
the day he found that one half of the mima
he'd invented lay beyond analysis.
That the mima had invented half herself.
--Aniara
16 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:34:57pm |
re: #13 BishopX
The BBC has a good overview of the difficulty prosecuting Assange.
I suspect the extradition deal has already been planned.
17 | brookly red Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:37:41pm |
re: #16 Killgore Trout
I suspect the extradition deal has already been planned.
Briton also has troops in harms way so this may become more than a political crime to them... we shall see.
18 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:39:44pm |
re: #16 Killgore Trout
I suspect the extradition deal has already been planned.
Agreed. Asange has made himself hated enough that much of the letter of the law may be cast aside. When you piss off enough powerful people, you're in for a world of hurt no matter what the law says.
19 | brookly red Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:41:07pm |
re: #18 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. Asange has made himself hated enough that much of the letter of the law may be cast aside. When you piss off enough powerful people, you're in for a world of hurt no matter what the law says.
an extended vacation in Cuba perhaps?
20 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:41:07pm |
re: #11 Alouette
People who are highly motivated, highly skilled, and have an attention span longer than a nanosecond are pulling down the big bucks as security consultants for major corporations. They are not pulling the equivalent of graffiti tags on subway cars.
you'd be surprised - money isn't the be all and end all for some.
21 | BishopX Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:41:35pm |
re: #16 Killgore Trout
Given the way holder has a tendency to shoot off his mouth, I doubt that they are anywhere near ready to charge Assange, let alone extradite him. None of this stuff is new, the US has know Assange had this stuff for months. If they had anything easy to charge him with, they would have acted sooner.
22 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:42:00pm |
re: #18 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. Asange has made himself hated enough that much of the letter of the law may be cast aside. When you piss off enough powerful people, you're in for a world of hurt no matter what the law says.
You see this as a bad thing correct Dark?
23 | Vicious Babushka Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:44:26pm |
re: #20 wozzablog
you'd be surprised - money isn't the be all and end all for some.
Well, those people are psychotic.
24 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:46:02pm |
Evening lizards!
It looks like the cyberpunk attacks are heating up today. How hard is it to locate these idiots?
25 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:46:15pm |
re: #22 jamesfirecat
You see this as a bad thing correct Dark?
Its not a good thing, but its The Way It Is.
26 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:46:21pm |
More Trutherism on Fox....
Geraldo Rivera Tells Bill O'reilly Recent Domestic Terror Plots Are Fake
This has become so common that even I hesitate to bother posting it anymore.
27 | Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:48:27pm |
re: #25 Dark_Falcon
Its not a good thing, but its The Way It Is.
This might be what evolution looks like now.
28 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:48:40pm |
re: #26 Killgore Trout
More Trutherism on Fox...
Geraldo Rivera Tells Bill O'reilly Recent Domestic Terror Plots Are Fake[Video]This has become so common that even I hesitate to bother posting it anymore.
Well, thankfully O'Reilly doesn't believe that. Hopefully, he holds to that. The FBI is doing good work putting away these scum.
29 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:48:50pm |
re: #25 Dark_Falcon
Its not a good thing, but its The Way It Is.
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't bring up how evil/wrong it should be whenever we find ourselves dealing with the issue just because it is business as usual.
We should confront the Banality of evil whenever it presents itself to us....
30 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:49:21pm |
re: #23 Alouette
Well, those people are psychotic.
I don't believe money to be the biggest measure in the success of someones life, neither do the developers of open source software like OpenOffice or the folks at the Mozilla foundation. Or the thousands of gifted Linux developers.
31 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:53:05pm |
re: #2 Obdicut
A lot of tech nerds are going to get to go on TV!
Remember the deodorant, guys, and zip those flies.
Also, will it kill you to comb your hair?
32 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:53:47pm |
re: #29 jamesfirecat
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't bring up how evil/wrong it should be whenever we find ourselves dealing with the issue just because it is business as usual.
We should confront the Banality of evil whenever it presents itself to us...
I don't confront those things that I cannot change. No matter what the rules are, they will get thrown aside if too much power gets too angry. The key is to keep it from being easy for that to happen, and in America that has been done.
33 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:55:00pm |
re: #28 Dark_Falcon
Well, thankfully O'Reilly doesn't believe that. Hopefully, he holds to that. The FBI is doing good work putting away these scum.
I don't take much comfort in O'Reilly's rebuttal. It shouldn't even be given airtime. Fox News is making a conscious editorial decision to mainstream this stuff.
34 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:55:09pm |
re: #32 Dark_Falcon
I don't confront those things that I cannot change. No matter what the rules are, they will get thrown aside if too much power gets too angry. The key is to keep it from being easy for that to happen, and in America that has been done.
///Conservative - n. one who is is enamored with the same old evils, as compared to a Liberal who wishes to replace them with new ones.
35 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:55:45pm |
Philly company accepting donations for Wikileaks
A tech startup based in Philadelphia says it is taking donations for Wikileaks.
Xipwire (pronounced Zipwire) says on its website that anyone who wishes to support Wikileaks through a donation should be able to do so.
The company says WikiLeaks supporters will be able to donate either through their website, or by text message if they have a Xipwire account. The announcement comes after MasterCard, along with a string of U.S.-based companies - including Visa, Amazon.com and PayPal - cut ties to WikiLeaks amid intense U.S. government pressure.
Xipwire says it is waiving all fees so that 100% of the donations collected will be directly passed on to WikiLeaks.
36 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:56:26pm |
Well, PayPal is still functional, I just paid for a Christmas gift there!
37 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:56:33pm |
Ron Paul Goes on 9-11 Truther Napolitano's Fox show to announce that his oversight of the Federal Reserve will be confirmed....
39 | Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:57:28pm |
re: #34 jamesfirecat
///Conservative - n. one who is is enamored with the same old evils, as compared to a Liberal who wishes to replace them with new ones.
You need new evils when the old evils cease to work.
40 | jaunte Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:57:58pm |
re: #36 Floral Giraffe
If anyone messes with my credit card or LGF subscription, it's war.
41 | Four More Tears Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:58:10pm |
OT: Just watched Maddow interview the author of Uganda's anti-gay bill. Need to go shower now.
42 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:58:49pm |
re: #41 JasonA
OT: Just watched Maddow interview the author of Uganda's anti-gay bill. Need to go shower now.
Did the first directly cause the second?
43 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:59:00pm |
re: #41 JasonA
OT: Just watched Maddow interview the author of Uganda's anti-gay bill. Need to go shower now.
i started to watch that ep earlier - tuned out when the Obama bashing reached brainfreeze proportions in the first two segments.
44 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 6:59:33pm |
re: #43 wozzablog
i started to watch that ep earlier - tuned out when the Obama bashing reached brainfreeze proportions in the first two segments.
I take it she doesn't like the deal Obama cut.
45 | Vicious Babushka Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:00:58pm |
re: #30 wozzablog
I don't believe money to be the biggest measure in the success of someones life, neither do the developers of open source software like OpenOffice or the folks at the Mozilla foundation. Or the thousands of gifted Linux developers.
I'd rather make less money at a job that I love, than a whole bunch of money doing something that is very stressful. But having no job and using one's skills for criminal mischief instead of being productive is psychotic.
46 | brookly red Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:01:22pm |
re: #44 Dark_Falcon
I take it she doesn't like the deal Obama cut.
no one does... that is how you know it is fair.
47 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:02:27pm |
re: #46 brookly red
no one does... that is how you know it is fair.
At this point I'm actually starting to like it since I saw this Graph...
48 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:02:41pm |
re: #44 Dark_Falcon
I take it she doesn't like the deal Obama cut.
that's a fair assessment.
well, possibly not so much this deal as that there was a deal at all.
She's a very smart lady but fails to see that none of what got passed vis-a-vis the lower income tax cut or the extended unemployment insurance (or the other good stuff) would have come during the GOP majority.
Obama realised the GOP were prepared to drive those on incomes under $250k over a cliff if they didn't get the upper income tax cut. Simple as that. His "hostage" analogy was apt.
49 | brookly red Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:02:47pm |
re: #45 Alouette
I'd rather make less money at a job that I love, than a whole bunch of money doing something that is very stressful. But having no job and using one's skills for criminal mischief instead of being productive is psychotic.
... what? oh sorry I didn't think you were watching.
50 | Ojoe Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:03:39pm |
Here we see the advantage of paper, pens, envelopes, diplomatic bags & lead seals on a string.
Sometimes the old ways are the best ways.
A goat head should be used for playing football.
51 | SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:03:50pm |
I'm applying to this program, and they want a personal statement, minimum two pages, discussing my 'background' and 'experience', as well as what I want out of the program.
How much detail do they actually want? I'm thirty-seven. I have a lot of 'background' and 'experience'.
52 | SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:04:19pm |
re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm applying to this program, and they want a personal statement, minimum two pages, discussing my 'background' and 'experience', as well as what I want out of the program.
How much detail do they actually want? I'm thirty-seven. I have a lot of 'background' and 'experience'.
Also, do they mean two pages doublespaced? That's what I would mean.
53 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:04:25pm |
re: #48 wozzablog
that's a fair assessment.
well, possibly not so much this deal as that there was a deal at all.She's a very smart lady but fails to see that none of what got passed vis-a-vis the lower income tax cut or the extended unemployment insurance (or the other good stuff) would have come during the GOP majority.
Obama realised the GOP were prepared to drive those on incomes under $250k over a cliff if they didn't get the upper income tax cut. Simple as that. His "hostage" analogy was apt.
The question is, which is the better move, to let the tax cuts lapse on lower and middle class and rightfully blame the GOP for being so partisan, or do what may not be the best political thing to do, but will hopefully spurr the economy a fair bit more...
54 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:05:43pm |
Why the public is pissed with bankers:
Christopher Marconi was in the shower when he heard a loud banging on his door. By the time he grabbed a towel and hustled to his front step, a U.S. marshal's sedan was peeling out of his driveway. Nailed to Marconi's front door was a foreclosure summons from Wells Fargo, naming him as a defendant. But the notice was for a house Marconi had never seen — on a mortgage he never had.
Tom Williams was in his kitchen thumbing through the mail when he opened a letter from GMAC. It informed him that the bank would confiscate his house unless he immediately paid off his mortgage balance of $276,000. But Williams had never missed a mortgage payment. And his loan wasn't due to mature until 2032.
Warren Nyerges opened his front door in Naples, Fla., to find a scraggly-haired summons server standing on his stoop. He plopped a foreclosure notice from Bank of America in Nyerges' hands. But Nyerges had paid for his house in cash. And he'd never had a checking account, much less a mortgage, with Bank of America.
By now, you may have heard the stories of bank robo-signers powering through hundreds of foreclosure affidavits a day without verifying a single fact. But most of those involved homeowners who had stopped paying their mortgage. They were genuine defaulters. Now a new species of homeowner is getting pushed into foreclosure hell.
People have always loved to complain about their banks. The push-button circus that passes for customer service. The larding on of fees. But the false foreclosure cases are hardly the usual complaints. These homeowners paid their mortgages — or loan modifications — on time. Some even paid off their loans. Worse, those on the receiving end of a bad foreclosure claim tell similar stories of getting bounced from one bank official to the next with no resolution while the foreclosure process continues apace.
I'm a conservative, but this one is very clearly over the line. The bank officials who caused this go to on should be prosecuted.
55 | brookly red Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:05:48pm |
re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm applying to this program, and they want a personal statement, minimum two pages, discussing my 'background' and 'experience', as well as what I want out of the program.
How much detail do they actually want? I'm thirty-seven. I have a lot of 'background' and 'experience'.
maybe you should ask them for a credit card number ;)
56 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:05:51pm |
Well leave it to Berkley to do something this insane...
Alleged leaker Bradley Manning: hero to Berkeley?
An Army private jailed for allegedly leaking sensitive military data is a hero and should be freed, according to a resolution under consideration by the Berkeley City Council.
The council is expected to vote Tuesday on whether to declare its support for Pfc. Bradley Manning, who's suspected of providing WikiLeaks with classified military documents and a video depicting an Army helicopter attack in Baghdad in which 11 civilians were killed.
Manning, 22, currently in the brig in Quantico, Va., faces 52 years in prison if convicted. Manning has not commented on his guilt or innocence.
"If he did what he's accused of doing, he's a patriot and should get a medal," said Bob Meola, the Berkeley peace and justice commissioner who authored the resolution. "I think the war criminals should be the ones prosecuted, not the whistle-blowers."
The proposed resolution originated from the same commission that declared the Marine Corps "unwanted intruders" in Berkeley in 2008. The council's ensuing approval - and reversal - ignited some of the city's most raucous protest in years and prompted more than 25,000 e-mails to City Hall.
This time, however, the commission's vote was not unanimous. The resolution passed on a 7-3 vote, and it's likely to be just as contentious when it meets the City Council.
57 | Vicious Babushka Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:06:06pm |
re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm applying to this program, and they want a personal statement, minimum two pages, discussing my 'background' and 'experience', as well as what I want out of the program.
How much detail do they actually want? I'm thirty-seven. I have a lot of 'background' and 'experience'.
They want to know if you are an underprivileged minority.
58 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:07:30pm |
re: #53 jamesfirecat
The question is, which is the better move, to let the tax cuts lapse on lower and middle class and rightfully blame the GOP for being so partisan, or do what may not be the best political thing to do, but will hopefully spurr the economy a fair bit more...
in my mind there is no question, and they managed to get it right for once in the senate when they found a way to decouple the tax cuts higher/lower on an up and down vote so they can hold the GOP to it later electorally.
The republicans put in a tonne of measures to screw up the deficit even further. That's on their conscience.
59 | Vicious Babushka Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:08:27pm |
re: #58 wozzablog
in my mind there is no question, and they managed to get it right for once in the senate when they found a way to decouple the tax cuts higher/lower on an up and down vote so they can hold the GOP to it later electorally.
The republicans put in a tonne of measures to screw up the deficit even further. That's on their conscience.
They have consciences?
60 | Ojoe Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:09:19pm |
re: #54 Dark_Falcon
You may find this article about mortgage and "control fraud" quite interesting:
61 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:09:38pm |
re: #56 NJDhockeyfan
Well leave it to Berkley to do something this insane...
Walter brought this up on the previous thread. The reaction there was as hostile as yours is and justly so.
LGF to Berkeley commission: Bark, moonbats, bark!
62 | Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:10:15pm |
re: #53 jamesfirecat
The question is, which is the better move, to let the tax cuts lapse on lower and middle class and rightfully blame the GOP for being so partisan, or do what may not be the best political thing to do, but will hopefully spurr the economy a fair bit more...
So he's not a Kenyan, he's a melancholy Dane.
63 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:11:02pm |
re: #45 Alouette
I'd rather make less money at a job that I love, than a whole bunch of money doing something that is very stressful. But having no job and using one's skills for criminal mischief instead of being productive is psychotic.
who says these people are unemployed?.
A few guys write the code for an automated ddos programme and a bunch of wage slaves download an app to their computer that performs the ddos attack while their out delivering pizza or working at your local bank.
64 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:11:57pm |
re: #1 jamesfirecat
I'd rather watch Obama on Mythbusters...
I really wanted that solar weapon to work... :(
65 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:12:36pm |
re: #61 Dark_Falcon
Walter brought this up on the previous thread. The reaction there was as hostile as yours is and justly so.
LGF to Berkeley commission: Bark, moonbats, bark!
It made the rounds.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
66 | Ben G. Hazi Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:12:54pm |
67 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:12:59pm |
re: #45 Alouette
I'd rather make less money at a job that I love, than a whole bunch of money doing something that is very stressful. But having no job and using one's skills for criminal mischief instead of being productive is psychotic.
Some folks are raised in a "psychotic" manner. I'm not condoning it. I think a lot of the lower income folks that live around me were raised that way. It tells in their words and deeds.
68 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:13:25pm |
re: #60 Ojoe
You may find this article about mortgage and "control fraud" quite interesting:
Interesting, but the remedy it describes will never happen. A bank holiday would leave millions in the lurch. People who don't use cash much would get pummeled.
69 | brookly red Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:13:37pm |
re: #64 boxhead
I really wanted that solar weapon to work... :(
here, have a magnifying glass and go look for some ants... ;)
70 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:14:25pm |
re: #62 Decatur Deb
So he's not a Kenyan, he's a melancholy Dane.
To be, or not to be– that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And, by opposing, end them.
71 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:15:00pm |
re: #66 talon_262
Good...now I know to avoid this company like the plague.
Get the word out. Post this story on all your favorite websites.
72 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:15:09pm |
re: #63 wozzablog
who says these people are unemployed?.
A few guys write the code for an automated ddos programme and a bunch of wage slaves download an app to their computer that performs the ddos attack while their out delivering pizza or working at your local bank.
"Throws up her hands." Somebody smarter than me should get this under control. Any young MIT grads up for it?
73 | celticdragon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:15:09pm |
Paypal is getting hit by the hackers right now. I can't log in to make a payment on a purchase at Ebay.
Damn.
74 | Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:16:44pm |
re: #70 wozzablog
To be, or not to be– that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The bankers theft of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of blue dogs
And, by opposing, end the cuts.
75 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:18:07pm |
I recall a lot of Assange supporters here claiming that they are advocating for free and open internet but Assange and his supporters are doing everything they can to make a mess of the internet. They are destroying what they claim to be protecting. This is going to result new laws.
76 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:18:08pm |
re: #73 celticdragon
Paypal is getting hit by the hackers right now. I can't log in to make a payment on a purchase at Ebay.
Damn.
I'm going to go buy something to check!
77 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:18:21pm |
re: #72 prairiefire
"Throws up her hands." Somebody smarter than me should get this under control. Any young MIT grads up for it?
it's almost impossible.
the hackers are usually atleast 2 steps ahead.
78 | freetoken Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:19:13pm |
re: #37 Killgore Trout
This coming Congress is going to be quite the circus.
79 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:19:25pm |
re: #73 celticdragon
Paypal is getting hit by the hackers right now. I can't log in to make a payment on a purchase at Ebay.
Damn.
Nice to know they feel so passionately about Wikileaks. I wish they could show that same spirit in actual defense of freedom.
/spits
80 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:19:38pm |
81 | freetoken Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:19:59pm |
re: #75 Killgore Trout
They are destroying what they claim to be protecting.
Don't worry, Ron Paul will save the internet for you.
82 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:21:47pm |
re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist
Send them your standard resume. Let them ask, if they want more detail.
83 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:22:27pm |
You know. For a while there I was reading about Scientology. I soon realized that while Scientology is a strange outfit, people like "anonymous" have Scientology Derangement Syndrome. They're pretty obsessed and the anti-Scientology people are almost a cult themselves.
84 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:22:35pm |
re: #81 freetoken
Don't worry, Ron Paul will save the internet for you.
how can he?
you know it's not a big truck, right?
85 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:23:02pm |
I knew there was something special about December 8th. Happy Birthday gorgeous.
86 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:23:28pm |
re: #73 celticdragon
It was slow to load, but I made a payment a little while ago.
Uplifting the economy, don't you know!
87 | Usually refered to as anyways Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:24:15pm |
re: #75 Killgore Trout
I recall a lot of Assange supporters here claiming that they are advocating for free and open internet but Assange and his supporters are doing everything they can to make a mess of the internet. They are destroying what they claim to be protecting. This is going to result new laws.
Not that I was supporting Assange in any way but on what basis do you claim what some 'internet group' is doing was in any way supported by Assange?
88 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:24:29pm |
89 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:25:02pm |
re: #83 Gus 802
You know. For a while there I was reading about Scientology. I soon realized that while Scientology is a strange outfit, people like "anonymous" have Scientology Derangement Syndrome. They're pretty obsessed and the anti-Scientology people are almost a cult themselves.
I suspect you might be right.
90 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:25:15pm |
re: #76 prairiefire
I'm going to go buy something to check!
It is frickin down, no joke. This will get a lot of attention.
91 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:25:20pm |
re: #64 boxhead
I really wanted that solar weapon to work... :(
Both Archimedes and Tesla's dreams of a death ray have come to naught...
92 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:25:51pm |
93 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:26:33pm |
94 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:27:02pm |
We should release the blueprints for all of our weapons systems.
Secrecy is bad.
/I'm having fun with this wikileaks mentality.
:)
95 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:27:44pm |
re: #93 Dark_Falcon
I used to like her, but not anymore.
What was their ever to like about her Dark?
Not blaming you just want to understand the rational conservative mind better...
96 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:27:48pm |
re: #92 Floral Giraffe
Send that woman an "all you can eat" gift certificate to In & Out Burger.
PLEASE!
i
97 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:28:07pm |
re: #94 Varek Raith
We should release the blueprints for all of our weapons systems.
Secrecy is bad.
/I'm having fun with this wikileaks mentality.
:)
Oh but they already have the blueprints for our weapons systems. It wouldn't make a difference.
//
98 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:28:36pm |
99 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:28:50pm |
re: #88 wozzablog
thread goes down hill in
3
2
1
...
How about the latest Helen Thomas quotes?
Defending her controversial comments in Dearborn, journalist Helen Thomas said on a radio show aired Tuesday that a prominent Jewish group was intimidating her. And she maintained her belief that Zionists are controlling U.S. foreign policy.
"I just think that people should be enlightened as to who is in charge of the opinion in this country," Thomas, 90, told the Marion, Ohio, radio station, WMRN-AM. "I mean, they've gotten the First Amendment."
In response, ADL Director Abe Foxman told the Free Press today that the group has a right to criticize Thomas, whose bigoted comments are "doing body blows to her image."
After she said Thursday in Dearborn that Zionists control major U.S. institutions, the head of the Anti-Defamation League, Abe Foxman, said her comments were "classic...anti-Semitism." He called upon groups and universities to disassociate themselves from her by removing any honors in her name. Hours later, Wayne State University pulled a journalism award in her name.
"I'm going to tell the Anti-Defamation League to back off," Thomas said on the radio show. "They think they have the right of intimidation."
"They already got my job. They want to get my honorary degrees. I mean, who are these people? What's the matter, they can't take freedom of speech?"
She added: "I'm getting tired of this intimidation. I'm going to report him (ADL director Abe Foxman) to President Obama and all the proper authorities. He better stop intimidating me. He has to shut up everyone in the country who is against Israeli tyranny. That's his job. That's what he is paid for."
100 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:28:54pm |
101 | Ojoe Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:29:47pm |
Nobody makes blueprints anymore, but they would actually be safer, as they cannot be hacked, or stored on a thumb drive, etc.
Good night.
102 | bratwurst Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:29:55pm |
103 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:30:16pm |
If there's a chance your kid can grow up to be a starting MLB pitcher, there's a better than average ROI. The bidding begins at $140M.
104 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:30:23pm |
re: #92 Floral Giraffe
Send that woman an "all you can eat" gift certificate to In & Out Burger.
PLEASE!
i love in and out burger :-)
my gf dragged me around their assorted locations in vegas. very nice.
Although i did much prefer Goodburger in colorado though. And Wendys.
Still - some better than average burgers.
105 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:30:26pm |
re: #97 Gus 802
Oh but they already have the blueprints for our weapons systems. It wouldn't make a difference.
//
Wonder how long before Assange and his supporters realize that opening the Pandora's Box that is government secrecy wasn't actually a good idea...
106 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:31:00pm |
107 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:31:08pm |
re: #99 NJDhockeyfan
How about the latest Helen Thomas quotes?
Crazy lady is crazy.
Hope you weren't trying to say Thomas is the Democrat version of Coulter though... I don't see her releasing a book series any time soon....
108 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:31:54pm |
re: #102 bratwurst
The fact that she thinks that I am in need of being "perfected" because I am a Jew is significantly less than gorgeous.
As a Christian, she is "the vine grafted on" and is not really in a place of authority.
109 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:32:05pm |
re: #99 NJDhockeyfan
Helen Thomas is pretty far down in that hole but seems to have an endless supply of shovels.
110 | Walter L. Newton Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:32:13pm |
re: #104 wozzablog
i love in and out burger :-)
my gf dragged me around their assorted locations in vegas. very nice.Although i did much prefer Goodburger in colorado though. And Wendys.
Still - some better than average burgers.
My favorite burger is Whataburger... but I think there is only one left some where in Denver.
111 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:32:30pm |
re: #105 Varek Raith
Wonder how long before Assange and his supporters realize that opening the Pandora's Box that is government secrecy wasn't actually a good idea...
Some will and some won't. The ones that won't are generally anarchist types that don't care about the wider ramifications. We're looking at a good deal of nihilism here.
112 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:32:51pm |
re: #104 wozzablog
i love in and out burger :-)
my gf dragged me around their assorted locations in vegas. very nice.Although i did much prefer Goodburger in colorado though. And Wendys.
Still - some better than average burgers.
You went to Vegas and did not get married?/
113 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:33:28pm |
re: #105 Varek Raith
Wonder how long before Assange and his supporters realize that opening the Pandora's Box that is government secrecy wasn't actually a good idea...
Transparency is necessary for some Government processes. Others, not so much. Exposing documents that can put folks in harms way is unacceptable. Exposing documents showing how money influences politicians would be welcome.
114 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:33:59pm |
re: #109 rwmofo
Helen Thomas is pretty far down in that hole but seems to have an endless supply of shovels.
She's considered a wonderful heroic woman at HuffPo. Maybe they will hire her.
115 | brookly red Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:34:34pm |
re: #113 boxhead
Transparency is necessary for some Government processes. Others, not so much. Exposing documents that can put folks in harms way is unacceptable. Exposing documents showing how money influences politicians would be welcome.
/now that there might just be harms way...
116 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:35:17pm |
re: #113 boxhead
Transparency is necessary for some Government processes. Others, not so much. Exposing documents that can put folks in harms way is unacceptable. Exposing documents showing how money influences politicians would be welcome.
Which is precisely what wikileaks is not doing.
They were/are careless at redacting names of informants.
Wikileaks just does document dumps without care.
117 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:35:46pm |
re: #105 Varek Raith
Wonder how long before Assange and his supporters realize that opening the Pandora's Box that is government secrecy wasn't actually a good idea...
I doubt it. Anarchists love violence and destruction. This is right up their alley without having to travel anywhere.
118 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:36:27pm |
re: #110 Walter L. Newton
My favorite burger is Whataburger... but I think there is only one left some where in Denver.
i heard about it but never made it.
Goodburger rocked socks at 1am coming back from the Bluebird.
Best burger i had over there period was at a pub in Boulder called The Hungry Toad.
bacon, avocado and cheddar cheese on some wickedly awesome prime steak mince and crackingly good bun
119 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:36:41pm |
re: #101 Ojoe
Nobody makes blueprints anymore, but they would actually be safer, as they cannot be hacked, or stored on a thumb drive, etc.
Good night.
Blueprints is a generally accepted word for any type of drawing prints. The last were a diazo process print which were blue line (with a white background). As I'm sure you know.
As print and display technology has advanced, the traditional term "blueprint" has continued to be used informally to refer to each type of image.
120 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:36:49pm |
re: #95 jamesfirecat
What was their ever to like about her Dark?
Not blaming you just want to understand the rational conservative mind better...
She's always been over the top, but it was not until one of her books a couple years ago that she finally just got too crazy for me. I've never been a fan of over-the-top, but for a while she did a good enough job smacking down liberalism that I was willing to overlook it. But when she moved to just fighting her own fictional version of liberalism, she lost me and she's just kept on going down hill.
121 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:37:12pm |
re: #112 prairiefire
You went to Vegas and did not get married?/
not the first person to point that out ;-)
122 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:37:30pm |
123 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:38:14pm |
re: #120 Dark_Falcon
She's always been over the top, but it was not until one of her books a couple years ago that she finally just got too crazy for me. I've never been a fan of over-the-top, but for a while she did a good enough job smacking down liberalism that I was willing to overlook it. But when she moved to just fighting her own fictional version of liberalism, she lost me and she's just kept on going down hill.
I think Jon Stewart had her on once in 2003... he said that the way she was trying to fight Liberalism was like one of those Japanese soldiers in the 1950's who refuses to believe that the war is actually over...
124 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:38:25pm |
re: #113 boxhead
Transparency is necessary for some Government processes. Others, not so much. Exposing documents that can put folks in harms way is unacceptable. Exposing documents showing how money influences politicians would be welcome.
But!
I do agree that there needs to be transparency for political contributions.
125 | BishopX Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:38:41pm |
re: #116 Varek Raith
To be completely fair, that isn't how they're handling the cables. They asked the state dept for redactions, and when they were turned down, decided to publish all of them.
I think they realized that they screwed the pooch with the Iraq/Afganistan war logs.
126 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:39:08pm |
re: #116 Varek Raith
Which is precisely what wikileaks is not doing.
They were/are careless at redacting names of informants.
Wikileaks just does document dumps without care.
yeah.... maybe there was a noble kernel in the beginning, but wikileaks has acted irresponsibly... to the nth degree.
127 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:39:14pm |
re: #116 Varek Raith
Which is precisely what wikileaks is not doing.
They were/are careless at redacting names of informants.
Wikileaks just does document dumps without care.
Anarchists. People always refer to Julian Assange as a genius. I think otherwise. He certainly lacks common sense.
128 | elizajane Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:39:22pm |
re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist
Also, do they mean two pages doublespaced? That's what I would mean.
They might mean single-spaced. That's what we'd mean at our program. Background and experience only as they are relevant to this program (or as you can make them seem relevant).
Good luck!!!
129 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:40:03pm |
re: #116 Varek Raith
Which is precisely what wikileaks is not doing.
They were/are careless at redacting names of informants.
Wikileaks just does document dumps without care.
Assange just wanted to "end the war", not thinking about how it should end or what sort of regime Iraq and Afghanistan would have after it ended. He is the classic narcissist: "Let my will be done, no matter the cost!"
130 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:40:08pm |
re: #128 elizajane
They might mean single-spaced. That's what we'd mean at our program. Background and experience only as they are relevant to this program (or as you can make them seem relevant).
Good luck!!!
Single spaced, 8 pt font.
10 pages.
:P
131 | jaunte Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:40:50pm |
From Roger Ebert's tweets:
Judge Freezes Assets of Beck's Gold Advertiser
The lawsuit alleged that among other things, Superior had defrauded its customers by overcharging them, fraudulently inducing them to buy overpriced collectors' coins rather than the bullion that they wanted, and taking customers' money for coins they never produced.
132 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:40:58pm |
re: #130 Varek Raith
Single spaced, 8 pt font.
10 pages.
:P
you never saw my dissertation on death rays in sci-fi..................
133 | What, me worry? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:41:15pm |
Evenin again, lizards.
Charles are you around? Have you thought about having a "show users" button on the Pages?
134 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:41:30pm |
Luke Scott...slugger for the Baltimore Orioles ...and birther...
"[Obama] was not born here," Scott asserted to Answer Man in the session's last segment. "That's my belief. I was born here. If someone accuses me of not being born here, I can go — within 10 minutes — to my filing cabinet and I can pick up my real birth certificate and I can go, 'See? Look! Here it is. Here it is.' The man has dodged everything. He dodges questions, he doesn't answer anything."
135 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:42:31pm |
re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist
Concentrate on overall teaching philosophy. Also, any concrete programs you initiated or helped to support. You have certainly always appreciated the structured support you have received from your private school teaching background!
136 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:42:44pm |
re: #134 NJDhockeyfan
Luke Scott...slugger for the Baltimore Orioles ...and birther...
I cannot... I have the California equivalent that Obama has released.... i suspect many people would be in that position...
137 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:43:01pm |
re: #134 NJDhockeyfan
Luke Scott...slugger for the Baltimore Orioles ...and birther...
Oy.
I don't have access to my original birth certificate.
Got no clue where it is or what happened with it.
I've got a short form type of dealie.
Guess I'm an illegal alien.
:P
138 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:43:29pm |
re: #135 prairiefire
In other words, try to kiss up when you can.
139 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:43:31pm |
re: #127 Gus 802
Anarchists. People always refer to Julian Assange as a genius. I think otherwise. He certainly lacks common sense.
Well he is considered a hero in Berkley.
140 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:44:23pm |
re: #104 wozzablog
Very interesting company too.
Family owned, MANY executives killed in a plane crash,
En Wikipedia
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
141 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:44:23pm |
re: #137 Varek Raith
Oy.
I don't have access to my original birth certificate.
Got no clue where it is or what happened with it.
I've got a short form type of dealie.
Guess I'm an illegal alien.
:P
just say it was destroyed when the pod entered the earths atmosphere..............
142 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:44:32pm |
What they should do is prioritize Bradley Manning's military court martial. That should send some shock waves through the Wikileaks cult community.
143 | Usually refered to as anyways Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:44:48pm |
re: #137 Varek Raith
Oy.
I don't have access to my original birth certificate.
Got no clue where it is or what happened with it.
I've got a short form type of dealie.
Guess I'm an illegal alien.
:P
I knew it!!!
144 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:45:04pm |
re: #127 Gus 802
Anarchists. People always refer to Julian Assange as a genius. I think otherwise. He certainly lacks common sense.
Genius? Maybe the kid who reminded the teacher that she forgot to assign homework, but genius doesn't seem to apply to this guy.
145 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:45:07pm |
re: #140 Floral Giraffe
Very interesting company too.
Family owned, MANY executives killed in a plane crash,
En Wikipedia
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
the numbers of bible verses printed on the bottom of packs of fries too.........
146 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:45:16pm |
re: #139 NJDhockeyfan
Well he is considered a hero in Berkley.
What's the deal with Berkley? I only know it in BSD sense, is there some other meaning?
147 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:45:26pm |
re: #137 Varek Raith
So, how do you know you are a Swede?/ Kidding.
148 | Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:46:23pm |
re: #140 Floral Giraffe
Very interesting company too.
Family owned, MANY executives killed in a plane crash,
En Wikipedia
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Now I want a burger.
149 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:46:51pm |
re: #139 NJDhockeyfan
Well he is considered a hero in Berkley.
No doubt. Although I did find one guy from the "Peace & Justice Commission" that voted against it. That's the real name of the commission too. Apparently it goes to city council next. It may or may not pass. The Israel divestment initiative failed to pass city council several years ago. Otherwise, I'm sure he would find many sympathetic ears in Berkeley.
150 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:47:01pm |
re: #148 Decatur Deb
Now I want a burger.
What an odd reaction to a plane crash and people dying...
..
.
:P
151 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:47:13pm |
re: #142 Gus 802
What they should do is prioritize Bradley Manning's military court martial. That should send some shock waves through the Wikileaks cult community.
I doubt it. They don't care about Manning. Assange used him and now that he's caught he's not useful anyways.
152 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:47:28pm |
re: #133 marjoriemoon
Evenin again, lizards.
Charles are you around? Have you thought about having a "show users" button on the Pages?
Reccomended, so he can look at it, if he's not around!
153 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:47:32pm |
re: #140 Floral Giraffe
Very interesting company too.
Family owned, MANY executives killed in a plane crash,
En Wikipedia
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
i enjoyed reading about the firm when i was over there. their portions seem to have remained fairly consistent - unlike macdonalds who kept going bigger, bigger bigger.
154 | brookly red Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:47:46pm |
re: #142 Gus 802
What they should do is prioritize Bradley Manning's military court martial. That should send some shock waves through the Wikileaks cult community.
put him in general population in Guantanamo...
155 | Wozza Matter? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:48:11pm |
re: #150 Varek Raith
What an odd reaction to a plane crash and people dying...
..
.
:P
don't ask if he was ever stranded in the Andes
156 | Decatur Deb Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:48:30pm |
re: #150 Varek Raith
What an odd reaction to a plane crash and people dying...
..
.
:P
Think of it as homage.
157 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:48:41pm |
re: #151 Killgore Trout
I doubt it. They don't care about Manning. Assange used him and now that he's caught he's not useful anyways.
Yeah, probably not. He'll become a martyr to their cause. And he'll spend the next 50 years learning how to make boulders into pebbles. That's if he gets hard labor.
158 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:49:02pm |
re: #134 NJDhockeyfan
Luke Scott...slugger for the Baltimore Orioles ...and birther...
What are the odds he thinks the moon landings were faked?
159 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:49:02pm |
re: #146 yasharki
What's the deal with Berkley? I only know it in BSD sense, is there some other meaning?
University California Berkley or Cal as it is called is in the city of Berkley, tends to have a very progressive populace bordering on extreme. Often San Fransisco gets bundled with Berkley's politics where SF is very diverse.
160 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:49:55pm |
re: #154 brookly red
put him in general population in Guantanamo...
That way he can be with his countrymen.
/
161 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:50:08pm |
re: #154 brookly red
put him in general population in Guantanamo...
I wouldn't give those scum the satisfaction. They'd enjoy killing the 'infidel' too much.
165 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:52:03pm |
re: #161 Dark_Falcon
I wouldn't give those scum the satisfaction. They'd enjoy killing the 'infidel' too much.
He slipped on a bar of soap.
//
166 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:53:41pm |
re: #161 Dark_Falcon
I wouldn't give those scum the satisfaction. They'd enjoy killing the 'infidel' too much.
But they wouldn't kill a peace loving person like Bradley Manning. They never do.
//
167 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:54:03pm |
re: #157 Gus 802
Yeah, probably not. He'll become a martyr to their cause. And he'll spend the next 50 years learning how to make boulders into pebbles. That's if he gets hard labor.
I think extraditing Assange on espionage charges is what's really going to send ripples through Wikileaks. They are suddenly going to realize the game they are playing has consequences for them.
168 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:55:50pm |
re: #158 rwmofo
What are the odds he thinks the moon landings were faked?
He'll tell you all about that after his chemtrail speech.
169 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:55:53pm |
re: #159 boxhead
University California Berkley or Cal as it is called is in the city of Berkley, tends to have a very progressive populace bordering on extreme. Often San Fransisco gets bundled with Berkley's politics where SF is very diverse.
Progressive to the point of bordering anarchism or nihilism I take it. I think I now understand references made to Berkley in prior comments. Thanks!
170 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:56:05pm |
re: #130 Varek Raith
Single spaced, 8 pt font.
10 pages.
:P
8 pt? That's awfully large for something like that. I want 2pt flyspeck roman.
///
Got a EULA once that I swear really was printed in that...
171 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:57:43pm |
re: #167 Killgore Trout
I think extraditing Assange on espionage charges is what's really going to send ripples through Wikileaks. They are suddenly going to realize the game they are playing has consequences for them.
Quite Concur. Once the bars slam home on Assange, they'll know its for real.
172 | jaunte Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:58:43pm |
Good analysis of the arm-twisting ability of governments in regard to Wikileaks:
State Power and the Response to Wikileaks
...there is a set of tools that states can use to greater effect. The Internet and other networks provide some private actors with a great deal of effective transnational power. Banks that operate across multiple jurisdictions can shape financial flows between these jurisdictions. Information companies may be able to reshape flows of information in ways that advantage or disadvantage particular actors. These private actors are often large, relatively immobile, and partially dependent on state approval for their actions. They thus provide a crucial resource for states. Even if states cannot directly regulate small agile actors outside their jurisdiction, they can indirectly regulate them by pressganging big private actors with cross-jurisdictional reach.
[Link: crookedtimber.org...]
173 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:58:51pm |
re: #170 wlewisiii
8 pt? That's awfully large for something like that. I want 2pt flyspeck roman.
///
Got a EULA once that I swear really was printed in that...
Warning. This pill may cause sudden bleeding from the eyes; vomiting; organ failure; renal failure; hallucinations; and sudden death.
174 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:59:18pm |
re: #171 Dark_Falcon
Quite Concur. Once the bars slam home on Assange, they'll know its for real.
Right. Just wait a couple of years.
175 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 7:59:32pm |
re: #169 yasharki
Progressive to the point of bordering anarchism or nihilism I take it. I think I now understand references made to Berkley in prior comments. Thanks!
you are welcome...
BTW.. in case you did not know, BSD was developed at UCB with the support of AT&T. Later AT&T had a falling out with Cal over BSD. Generally, the University is considered VERY good, especially in math and sciences.
177 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:00:41pm |
re: #167 Killgore Trout
I think extraditing Assange on espionage charges is what's really going to send ripples through Wikileaks. They are suddenly going to realize the game they are playing has consequences for them.
Based on the requirements to win a Pulitzer Prize, Assange has placed himself in the VIP line.
178 | What, me worry? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:01:30pm |
re: #152 Floral Giraffe
Reccomended, so he can look at it, if he's not around!
Thank ye! I thought it was getting a little crowded on some pages ;)
180 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:01:39pm |
182 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:02:34pm |
re: #148 Decatur Deb
Now I want a burger.
What you REALLY want are their fries.
Handmade, and OH SO TASTY.
(I'm on a diet, so they are not in my future, but man, they are excellent!)
183 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:03:02pm |
re: #182 Floral Giraffe
What you REALLY want are their fries.
Handmade, and OH SO TASTY.
(I'm on a diet, so they are not in my future, but man, they are excellent!)
animal fries......
184 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:03:13pm |
re: #169 yasharki
Progressive to the point of bordering anarchism or nihilism I take it. I think I now understand references made to Berkley in prior comments. Thanks!
Berkley is also known as Berserkeley.
185 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:03:15pm |
re: #171 Dark_Falcon
Quite Concur. Once the bars slam home on Assange, they'll know its for real.
Only true so far as it goes. They'll dig in using tools like Tor, Freenet , I2P and whatever the next generation of highly encrypted dark net is hiding in plain sight in the open net. As the saying goes, the tighter they squeeze, the more that slips out through the fingers.
Is this good? Is this bad? DIIK. It is real though.
186 | What, me worry? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:03:59pm |
re: #182 Floral Giraffe
What you REALLY want are their fries.
Handmade, and OH SO TASTY.
(I'm on a diet, so they are not in my future, but man, they are excellent!)
If you can manage a diet this time of year, you're my new hero!
187 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:04:02pm |
re: #180 Dark_Falcon
It'll take a while, that's a fact.
Now I don't want to be like China and this is certainly not an endorsement. But remember that nut that killed all of those kids in China not too long ago? They already executed him.
188 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:04:19pm |
re: #185 wlewisiii
Only true so far as it goes. They'll dig in using tools like Tor, Freenet , I2P and whatever the next generation of highly encrypted dark net is hiding in plain sight in the open net. As the saying goes, the tighter they squeeze, the more that slips out through the fingers.
Is this good? Is this bad? DIIK. It is real though.
There is need for such dark networks, but it has, is and will be used for bad things.
189 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:04:59pm |
190 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:07:18pm |
191 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:07:24pm |
re: #187 Gus 802
Now I don't want to be like China and this is certainly not an endorsement. But remember that nut that killed all of those kids in China not too long ago? They already executed him.
And how many were killed that quickly that weren't guilty of anything? In China, that is, we already have a good idea about Texas... :oops:
192 | srjh Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:07:59pm |
It's looking extremely unlikely that Assange will be extradited on espionage charges. Such charges are shaky at best, and even if found to be valid, European countries such as the UK or Sweden (as well as the Australian government) would be pretty unwilling to extradite with so many in the US calling for the death penalty.
The focus should remain on the sources of the leak (likely Manning at this point), not those publishing the leaks (which includes dozens of high-profile traditional newspapers which would need to be targeted as well for consistency).
193 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:08:08pm |
re: #175 boxhead
you are welcome...
BTW.. in case you did not know, BSD was developed at UCB with the support of AT&T. Later AT&T had a falling out with Cal over BSD. Generally, the University is considered VERY good, especially in math and sciences.
If you're assuming I mean Unix when I say BSD, you almost got it right :) However Unix was originally developed at AT&T Labs, it's the BSD flavor of it which was later developed in UCB, but you're right there was some kind of disagreement between the two, based on copyrights if memory served...
194 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:08:17pm |
re: #187 Gus 802
Now I don't want to be like China and this is certainly not an endorsement. But remember that nut that killed all of those kids in China not too long ago? They already executed him.
Here he is...
[Link: www.executedtoday.com...]
Killed 8 kids on March 23rd . Executed on April 28th
195 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:08:26pm |
196 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:09:40pm |
re: #194 Gus 802
Here he is...
[Link: www.executedtoday.com...]
Killed 8 kids on March 23rd . Executed on April 28th
Good. I hope it was a painful death for that creep.
197 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:09:50pm |
re: #186 marjoriemoon
An embarassing number of pounds so far, with an equal number yet to go.
It is coming off this body, and yes, it's hard.
198 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:09:53pm |
199 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:09:56pm |
re: #191 wlewisiii
And how many were killed that quickly that weren't guilty of anything? In China, that is, we already have a good idea about Texas... :oops:
Don't forget Illinois.
200 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:10:28pm |
Sigh.
I hope she fully recovers. If you don't like to hear her sing, there's something wrong with you.
201 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:10:44pm |
re: #193 yasharki
If you're assuming I mean Unix when I say BSD, you almost got it right :) However Unix was originally developed at AT&T Labs, it's the BSD flavor of it which was later developed in UCB, but you're right there was some kind of disagreement between the two, based on copyrights if memory served...
Hold that thought, it was Bell Labs and "memory serves" :) Thanks for pointing out what Berkley means nowadays anyway, I had no idea.
202 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:11:19pm |
re: #193 yasharki
If you're assuming I mean Unix when I say BSD, you almost got it right :) However Unix was originally developed at AT&T Labs, it's the BSD flavor of it which was later developed in UCB, but you're right there was some kind of disagreement between the two, based on copyrights if memory served...
Yes... I mean Unix, and yes, I know AT&T Bell Labs created Unix. I worked on AT&T 3B2 mini computer systems in the late 80's. We used System V Rel 3.2 of the Unix operating system... :) AT&T did not like the fact that BSD unix was very good and being used by folks AT&T would like to charge.
yes... I am a nerd... :)
203 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:11:38pm |
re: #196 NJDhockeyfan
Good. I hope it was a painful death for that creep.
Mike Farrell sent his condolences.
//
204 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:12:23pm |
206 | What, me worry? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:14:07pm |
re: #184 NJDhockeyfan
Berkley is also known as Berserkeley.
Make fun of Berkeley if you will, but I wouldn't want to live without it. It has an awesome history.
[Link: www.berkeleypubliclibrary.org...]
Particularly the 60s when so much was going on. Race relations, free speech, Vietnam, non-violent resistance, student activism. We owe a great deal to Berkeley.
[Link: www.berkeleypubliclibrary.org...]
The mainstream of American politics is moderate-to-conservative, but there is also an important tradition of home-grown radicalism in the United States. Episodic rather than ideological, American radicalism usually appears attached to some great cause such as abolition, women's suffrage, trade union organization or pacifism. Never dominant in these movements, the radical tradition has nevertheless profoundly affected them, and occasionally profoundly affects the society and culture as a whole. Such was the case during "The Sixties," actually a decade stretching from about 1964 to 1974, when the issues of racial justice and the Vietnam War absorbed the nation. It was also an era of social and cultural rebellion against conformity and "the establishment." No place was more affected by the politics and rebellions of these years than Berkeley. The city's image as "the People's Republic of Berzerkeley" derives from this period and probably best expresses the common popular understanding (or misunderstanding) of the experience and heritage of Berkeley in the sixties.
207 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:14:25pm |
re: #204 yasharki
That makes two of us :)
my first email address was mark@calstate.edu... w00t I worked in the CSU Chancellor's office's main network hub. I was a Usenet admin, sysadm and other fun stuff... I even hosted MUDs... lol
208 | recusancy Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:14:27pm |
re: #187 Gus 802
Now I don't want to be like China and this is certainly not an endorsement. But remember that nut that killed all of those kids in China not too long ago? They already executed him.
If that's not endorsement what is it?
209 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:14:52pm |
re: #205 Gus 802
Let us pause to remember Tookie Williams.
//
Hey, he wrote children's books. He was a great guy!
//
210 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:15:35pm |
re: #202 boxhead
Yes... I mean Unix, and yes, I know AT&T Bell Labs created Unix. I worked on AT&T 3B2 mini computer systems in the late 80's. We used System V Rel 3.2 of the Unix operating system... :) AT&T did not like the fact that BSD unix was very good and being used by folks AT&T would like to charge.
yes... I am a nerd... :)
Never used a 3B2, but the 3B1 was fun, the AT&T Unix PC (aka 7300) was even more fun.
Thank god I found Minix around then.
211 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:16:39pm |
re: #208 recusancy
If that's not endorsement what is it?
It's an example of swift justice in China. Now in this particular case he was caught red handed -- literally. He deserved to be executed. So yes, I am endorsing this particular case. As for the remaining record on China that's a different story altogether.
212 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:16:42pm |
PayPal downed by ‘hackers’ for Wikileaks censure
In addition to Visa and Mastercard, online payment processing giant PayPal has been knocked offline tonight by a loosely affiliated group of web users protesting the financial restraints placed on the Wikileaks operation.
As of now, Visa is back up and running and Mastercard appears to be mostly operational. However, PayPal is not accessible- although BoingBoing reports that the service is still functioning despite the site outage.
Mashable posted a list of attacks associated with Operation Payback:
* After pulling the plug on payments to WikiLeaks, Mastercard’s website was taken down and remains out of service.
* Senator Joe Lieberman’s website was taken down for 12 minutes (the first .gov site to be attacked).
* Sarah Palin’s website was taken offline by a small group of Anonymous attackers.
* The group sent spam faxes to Joe Lieberman’s office
and to PostFinance.
* PostFinance was attacked the hardest, leaving customers without the ability to conduct online banking.
* They took down the website of the lawyer representing the two women who were allegedly raped/assaulted by WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange.
* The group took down Assange’s Swedish prosecutor’s website.PayPal has not addressed the outage on their Twitter feed as of yet.
213 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:17:31pm |
214 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:17:44pm |
re: #210 wlewisiii
Never used a 3B2, but the 3B1 was fun, the AT&T Unix PC (aka 7300) was even more fun.
Thank god I found Minix around then.
dude... I had a lab of both of those I managed... the first GUI Unix PB... awesome... but horribly slow.
215 | What, me worry? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:17:49pm |
re: #212 NJDhockeyfan
* Sarah Palin’s website was taken offline by a small group of Anonymous attackers.
She still has the twitter!
216 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:18:57pm |
217 | engineer cat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:18:58pm |
Obama: Tax deal will look better with more scrutiny
does scrutiny taste like ketchup?
and, um, aren't you supposed to put on the scrutiny BEFORE THE DEAL?
i think it's all cold now...
218 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:19:13pm |
re: #215 marjoriemoon
She still has the twitter!
Twitter and Facebook will be the next likely targets...
219 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:19:28pm |
220 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:20:09pm |
re: #212 NJDhockeyfan
PayPal downed by ‘hackers’ for Wikileaks censure
PayPal has not addressed the outage on their Twitter feed as of yet.
Visa, Master Card...
Yawn.
You want to see a revolt? If these guys were to take down porn sites, now THAT would bring all the ninjas out of their...mom's basements.
221 | Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:20:10pm |
re: #56 NJDhockeyfan
Now that is just embarrassing. That place has teh crazy.
222 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:20:12pm |
re: #219 NJDhockeyfan
They are going after Twitter next.
They keep this up they're going to end up hacking themselves.
223 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:20:20pm |
re: #214 boxhead
dude... I had a lab of both of those I managed... the first GUI Unix PB... awesome... but horribly slow.
You guys sound like dinasours :) The first Unix I had to deal with was Irix on a 16 cpu SGI box, our CSE's pride and joy.
224 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:20:30pm |
re: #210 wlewisiii
Never used a 3B2, but the 3B1 was fun, the AT&T Unix PC (aka 7300) was even more fun.
Thank god I found Minix around then.
oh and the network topology we used was StarLan from AT&T. Some weird hybrid between Ethernet and token ring.
225 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:20:37pm |
re: #213 yasharki
Now I know where SUN ripped off their keyboard from.
Heh, other way around. The Sun 1 came out in May 1982. The AT&T didnt ship till '85.
226 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:21:50pm |
re: #222 Gus 802
They keep this up they're going to end up hacking themselves.
They are already, just don't tell them OK?
227 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:22:15pm |
re: #225 wlewisiii
Heh, other way around. The Sun 1 came out in May 1982. The AT&T didnt ship till '85.
It used a OS based on BSD. Hence the lawsuits later.... :) I liked old SunOS. Solaris embraced the AT&T kernel.
228 | What, me worry? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:22:23pm |
re: #218 Varek Raith
Twitter and Facebook will be the next likely targets...
Oh noesss! My co-op will wither and die!
229 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:22:26pm |
re: #212 NJDhockeyfan
PayPal downed by ‘hackers’ for Wikileaks censure
PayPal has not addressed the outage on their Twitter feed as of yet.
WE WILL CENSOR YOU FOR CENSORING WIKILEAKS!
WE BELIEVE IN OPEN INTERNET!
OPPOSE US AND WE'LL SHUT YOU DOWN!
230 | Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:22:37pm |
re: #226 Floral Giraffe
Hello good lady how are ya?
231 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:22:55pm |
I demand to know the names of the hackers now! I also want their emails and other personal documents! This corruption must end at once and I demand hacker transparency!
//
232 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:23:10pm |
re: #220 rwmofo
Visa, Master Card...
Yawn.
You want to see a revolt? If these guys were to take down porn sites, now THAT would bring all the ninjas out of their...mom's basements.
It is the Holiday season! If they don't get it fixed soon, it will be a very big deal.
233 | recusancy Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:23:13pm |
I'll never understand the bloodlust of the conservative mind.
235 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:24:09pm |
236 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:24:20pm |
re: #223 yasharki
You guys sound like dinasours :) The first Unix I had to deal with was Irix on a 16 cpu SGI box, our CSE's pride and joy.
You might appreciate my secondary system then - an SGI Octane2 with 2xR12k@300, 1gb, 2x73gb, & V8. Alas, my macbook run rings around it but it is even more elegant than a mac which is saying something!
237 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:25:54pm |
re: #229 Varek Raith
WE WILL CENSOR YOU FOR CENSORING WIKILEAKS!
WE BELIEVE IN OPEN INTERNET!
OPPOSE US AND WE'LL SHUT YOU DOWN!
Once we control the means of production they will have no choice but to service Wikileaks!
//
238 | What, me worry? Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:27:08pm |
re: #235 prairiefire
I'll send you something!
hehe Actually, I think it already did. I haven't played in awhile :p
239 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:27:11pm |
re: #233 recusancy
I'll never understand the bloodlust of the conservative mind.
What bloodlust? Gus was talking about some people who deserved to die and got executed. That's not bloodlust, that's a desire for justice.
240 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:27:26pm |
re: #224 boxhead
oh and the network topology we used was StarLan from AT&T. Some weird hybrid between Ethernet and token ring.
You have my sincere sympathy. I remember the papers in the Bell journal. I didn't realize that mess ever made it into the wild.
241 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:28:20pm |
re: #239 Dark_Falcon
What bloodlust? Gus was talking about some people who deserved to die and got executed. That's not bloodlust, that's a desire for justice.
Last I checked the death penalty was still around in California.
242 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:28:50pm |
re: #240 wlewisiii
You have my sincere sympathy. I remember the papers in the Bell journal. I didn't realize that mess ever made it into the wild.
lol it worked for the setting we had.
243 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:28:57pm |
re: #224 boxhead
oh and the network topology we used was StarLan from AT&T. Some weird hybrid between Ethernet and token ring.
Not entirely sure what that is, but it sounds....like a bad idea.
244 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:29:00pm |
re: #237 Gus 802
Once we control the means of production they will have no choice but to service Wikileaks!
//
THE HACKERS ARE MARXISTS!!!11 OBAMA IS LEAGUE WITH THEM TO INSTITUTE SOCIALISM!!1 TUNE IN TO MY NEXT SHOW AT 4PM TO LEARN MORE!!!1 BUY GOLD!11
/Glenn Beck
245 | recusancy Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:29:11pm |
re: #239 Dark_Falcon
What bloodlust? Gus was talking about some people who deserved to die and got executed. That's not bloodlust, that's a desire for justice.
The death penalty is barbaric. That aside it's the reveling in it. The enthusiasm for it.
246 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:30:01pm |
re: #239 Dark_Falcon
What bloodlust? Gus was talking about some people who deserved to die and got executed. That's not bloodlust, that's a desire for justice.
But yeah. I always lose my liberal t-shirt when I start talking that way. Used to happen when I would hang out with my obnoxious friends who I soon gave up. It's pretty easy you know. Once you stray from the strict orthodoxy you're either considered a conservative and thence become an outcast from the group.
247 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:31:37pm |
re: #236 wlewisiii
You might appreciate my secondary system then - an SGI Octane2 with 2xR12k@300, 1gb, 2x73gb, & V8. Alas, my macbook run rings around it but it is even more elegant than a mac which is saying something!
The SGI boxen I was talking about had at least 15 years on Octane2s, but that's not the best piece of hardware I had a privilege of using. My math teacher (I finished highschool in US, just the senior year), managed to acquire a NeXT box somehow, in 1992, that was a thing of beauty!
248 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:31:46pm |
re: #245 recusancy
The death penalty is barbaric. That aside it's the reveling in it. The enthusiasm for it.
Being flippant doesn't equal enthusiasm. That is you don't necessarily leap from point A to point M as you have.
249 | jaunte Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:31:51pm |
Adobe PDF Reader upgrade phishing scam:
[Link: www.snopes.com...]
250 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:33:13pm |
re: #247 yasharki
The SGI boxen I was talking about had at least 15 years on Octane2s, but that's not the best piece of hardware I had a privilege of using. My math teacher (I finished highschool in US, just the senior year), managed to acquire a NeXT box somehow, in 1992, that was a thing of beauty!
we had a NeXT Cube as well. Very nice design... not very fast though...
251 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:34:05pm |
PayPal is now functioning. The problem was but a blip on the capitalistic landscape.
252 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:34:19pm |
re: #245 recusancy
The death penalty is barbaric. That aside it's the reveling in it. The enthusiasm for it.
Ted Bundy killed a lot of girls. Then he was put in jail in Colorado. He escaped and killed more girls. Then they caught him again. He escaped again...and killed more girls. Then they caught him in Florida and executed him. He hasn't killed anyone else since he was executed.
253 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:35:01pm |
re: #252 rwmofo
Ted Bundy killed a lot of girls. Then he was put in jail in Colorado. He escaped and killed more girls. Then they caught him again. He escaped again...and killed more girls. Then they caught him in Florida and executed him. He hasn't killed anyone else since he was executed.
But Ted Bundy was a human being just like the rest of us!
//
254 | recusancy Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:35:27pm |
re: #248 Gus 802
Being flippant doesn't equal enthusiasm. That is you don't necessarily leap from point A to point M as you have.
I don't understand being flippant about human life either. Even the life of a murderer.
255 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:36:26pm |
re: #245 recusancy
The death penalty is barbaric. That aside it's the reveling in it. The enthusiasm for it.
I disagree. In the cases of the men Gus referred to their guilt had been decisively proven (the spree killer in China was caught literally red-handed) and their crimes unrepented. Such remorseless multi-murderers deserve only death. Nothing else is a fit punishment.
256 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:36:31pm |
re: #247 yasharki
The SGI boxen I was talking about had at least 15 years on Octane2s, but that's not the best piece of hardware I had a privilege of using. My math teacher (I finished highschool in US, just the senior year), managed to acquire a NeXT box somehow, in 1992, that was a thing of beauty!
Oh yes, they were. I've never gotten a real Next machine running but I did have NextStep 3.3 running on a HP 712 & on an IBM Thinkpad till I was able to afford it's younger brother (this mac book running OS X)
257 | recusancy Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:36:31pm |
re: #252 rwmofo
Ted Bundy killed a lot of girls. Then he was put in jail in Colorado. He escaped and killed more girls. Then they caught him again. He escaped again...and killed more girls. Then they caught him in Florida and executed him. He hasn't killed anyone else since he was executed.
That sounds like more of a problem with the jail and guards then it is with the existence of the death penalty.
258 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:36:58pm |
re: #254 recusancy
I don't understand being flippant about human life either. Even the life of a murderer.
That's life. I'm just practicing freedom of speech much like Julian Assange no?
259 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:37:25pm |
re: #255 Dark_Falcon
I disagree. In the cases of the men Gus referred to their guilt had been decisively proven (the spree killer in China was caught literally red-handed) and their crimes unrepented. Such remorseless multi-murderers deserve only death. Nothing else is a fit punishment.
Life with no parole in a super max prison.
260 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:39:32pm |
re: #257 recusancy
That sounds like more of a problem with the jail and guards then it is with the existence of the death penalty.
It worked. He quit killing girls after they pulled the switch.
261 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:39:43pm |
re: #252 rwmofo
Ted Bundy killed a lot of girls. Then he was put in jail in Colorado. He escaped and killed more girls. Then they caught him again. He escaped again...and killed more girls. Then they caught him in Florida and executed him. He hasn't killed anyone else since he was executed.
Yeah, and that guy in Texas killed his family ...
Oh, oops, you mean he didn't? Oh well too bad, so sad.
Sorry but even one on the one hand is too many in my book. Life without parole takes care of the others just fine and is even cheaper than doing capital cases correctly.
262 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:40:05pm |
re: #259 boxhead
Life with no parole in a super max prison.
I don't agree. I've always favored the death penalty, and in the case of the worst scum it sends an important message: That whoever commits such crimes is unworthy of life and his life will be ended.
263 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:40:48pm |
Bungee Jumping Russian Style
264 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:41:44pm |
re: #230 Rightwingconspirator
Hello good lady how are ya?
Just fine, thank you for asking!
And you? And you lady?
Will send a picture to you , in a few...
265 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:42:05pm |
re: #262 Dark_Falcon
I don't agree. I've always favored the death penalty, and in the case of the worst scum it sends an important message: That whoever commits such crimes is unworthy of life and his life will be ended.
I can go either way. Life (without parole) or the death penalty for the more solid cases.
266 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:42:25pm |
re: #262 Dark_Falcon
I don't agree. I've always favored the death penalty, and in the case of the worst scum it sends an important message: That whoever commits such crimes is unworthy of life and his life will be ended.
But it has never been shown that Capital Punishment is a deterrent. And Death Row is VERY expensive, not to mention the automatic appeals. Super Max is not much of a life either.
267 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:42:32pm |
re: #263 Killgore Trout
Bungee Jumping Russian Style
[Video]
Heh. Well, that's more fun than discussing the death penalty.
268 | Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:43:45pm |
re: #257 recusancy
Not the only human life to consider there-A clear and present danger to his fellow inmates. Or, if it's permanent solitary, that would be terribly cruel. Hence one answer to the dilemma becomes execute the hard core killers.
269 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:43:59pm |
270 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:45:16pm |
re: #267 rwmofo
Heh. Well, that's more fun than discussing the death penalty.
Don't look at me I just mentioned China regarding swift justice and the next thing I knew I was accused of being a "blood lusting cOnSeRvAtIvE"!!11ty Then the whambulance came for the injustices of the world!
271 | recusancy Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:45:57pm |
re: #261 wlewisiii
Yeah, and that guy in Texas killed his family ...
Oh, oops, you mean he didn't? Oh well too bad, so sad.
Sorry but even one on the one hand is too many in my book. Life without parole takes care of the others just fine and is even cheaper than doing capital cases correctly.
And there's Cory Maye currently also.
272 | freetoken Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:47:00pm |
re: #269 Killgore Trout
Fascinating that they use so much Japanese in their shield symbol.
273 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:47:43pm |
House passed CR would ban civilian trial for KSM, others
A continuing resolution that the House passed Wednesday, 212-206, effectively bans any civilian trial for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or any of the other suspected terrorists detained at Guantanamo Bay. The ban in the government funding measure would be in place through next September, unless repealed.
274 | Daniel Ballard Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:47:57pm |
re: #264 Floral Giraffe
We are good. Out with an old pal tonight for drinks and dinner.
Rendering the "Busking In Los Angeles" mini documentary featuring Patrick Polk, the blues man. It might be done by morning for upload. This time in HD, and the best sound the web will support in stereo.
275 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:48:19pm |
re: #272 freetoken
Fascinating that they use so much Japanese in their shield symbol.
most likely Anonymous is not purely USA centric if even a majority. The darn thing is that they are anonymous... :p
276 | freetoken Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:48:32pm |
You think that "Anonymous" have a Ninja-fantasy thing going?
277 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:48:50pm |
re: #270 Gus 802
Don't look at me I just mentioned China regarding swift justice and the next thing I knew I was accused of being a "blood lusting cOnSeRvAtIvE"!!11ty Then the whambulance came for the injustices of the world!
YOU were called a conservative? Heh. Ya know if someone were to call me a liberal...ahh, never mind. You'll see Michael Moore coming out with an aerobics video before that happens.
278 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:48:56pm |
re: #272 freetoken
Fascinating that they use so much Japanese in their shield symbol.
There's a term for them...
.
.
.
Don't hit me!
279 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:49:10pm |
re: #276 freetoken
You think that "Anonymous" have a Ninja-fantasy thing going?
Ninjas vs Pirates... who wins...
280 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:49:28pm |
re: #277 rwmofo
YOU were called a conservative? Heh. Ya know if someone were to call me a liberal...ahh, never mind. You'll see Michael Moore coming out with an aerobics video before that happens.
Oh, be quite you commie!
:P
281 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:49:38pm |
re: #276 freetoken
You think that "Anonymous" have a Ninja-fantasy thing going?
Among other fantasies?
282 | recusancy Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:49:57pm |
The death penalty and gays in the military.
Go America! Us and a bunch of dictatorships and theocracies.
283 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:50:16pm |
re: #272 freetoken
Fascinating that they use so much Japanese in their shield symbol.
Interesting. I wonder what it says. I can't imagine much support from Japanese residents for illegal internet activity. The authorities there don't fuck around.
284 | steve Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:50:40pm |
Wonder what would happen to Mr. Assange and his minions if they did the same thing to China and the USSR?
285 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:51:08pm |
re: #284 steve
Wonder what would happen to Mr. Assange and his minions if they did the same thing to China and the USSR?
USSR?
It's dead, Jim.
;)
286 | freetoken Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:51:15pm |
287 | recusancy Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:51:32pm |
re: #284 steve
Wonder what would happen to Mr. Assange and his minions if they did the same thing to China and the USSR?
I prefer living in America to China or the USSR.
288 | freetoken Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:51:46pm |
I suspect "Anonymous" grew up watching too much anime.
289 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:51:48pm |
re: #284 steve
Wonder what would happen to Mr. Assange and his minions if they did the same thing to China and the USSR?
and still in England? probably not arrest, but rather assassination...
290 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:51:48pm |
291 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:52:00pm |
#261 wlewisiii
Yeah, and that guy in Texas killed his family ...
Oh, oops, you mean he didn't? Oh well too bad, so sad.
Sorry but even one on the one hand is too many in my book. Life without parole takes care of the others just fine and is even cheaper than doing capital cases correctly.
I agree with you while considering questionable cases, but what if conviction in a given case is supported by eyewitness accounts, surveillance, and unquestionable evidence? If a person is a repeated child molesting killer why should he be allowed to live? Also how can life in prison be cheaper than execution?
292 | steve Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:52:55pm |
gotta run, one of my DI tanks just went to into low level alarm. Be back as soon as I can. Sorry!
293 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:53:12pm |
re: #268 Rightwingconspirator
Not the only human life to consider there-A clear and present danger to his fellow inmates. Or, if it's permanent solitary, that would be terribly cruel. Hence one answer to the dilemma becomes execute the hard core killers.
Clear and Present Danger... Hey! There's a new Tom Clancy novel.
294 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:53:25pm |
295 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:53:53pm |
re: #292 steve
gotta run, one of my DI tanks just went to into low level alarm. Be back as soon as I can. Sorry!
later
296 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:53:54pm |
re: #284 steve
Wonder what would happen to Mr. Assange and his minions if they did the same thing to China and the USSR?
He'd get polonium laced sushi for breakfast, and die.
297 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:54:17pm |
re: #289 boxhead
and still in England? probably not arrest, but rather assassination...
A poisonous cup of tea, perhaps.
298 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:54:48pm |
re: #282 recusancy
The death penalty and gays in the military.
Go America! Us and a bunch of dictatorships and theocracies.
That's not a very accurate portrayal of the death penalty in the USA. There are many states that don't have the death penalty.
Alaska (1957)
Hawaii (1948)
Iowa (1965)
Maine (1887)
Massachusetts (1984)
Michigan (1846)
Minnesota (1911)
New Jersey (2007)
New Mexico* (2009)
New York (2007)#
North Dakota (1973)
Rhode Island (1984)**
Vermont (1964)
West Virginia (1965)
Wisconsin (1853)
- Dist. of Columbia (1981)
299 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:54:55pm |
300 | freetoken Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:55:03pm |
re: #290 Varek Raith
Yeah, kind of deserved that.
:P
I'm going to send Kana to beat you with her... beads.
301 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:55:05pm |
re: #283 Killgore Trout
Interesting. I wonder what it says. I can't imagine much support from Japanese residents for illegal internet activity. The authorities there don't fuck around.
It's all just part of the fantasy. Those people don't get out of the house much.
302 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:55:19pm |
303 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:56:12pm |
304 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:57:25pm |
And try going to Germany and hold up a sign out in the street that says "fuck the Catholic church". See how long that lasts. Better yet try that in Poland.
305 | Four More Tears Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:57:34pm |
re: #298 Gus 802
Huh. Who knew Alaska would be on that list...
306 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:57:41pm |
re: #301 Dark_Falcon
It's all just part of the fantasy. Those people don't get out of the house much.
They are also really into the Guy Fawkes thing. No Wonder the Paulians love them so much.
307 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:57:48pm |
re: #291 yasharki
#261 wlewisiii
I agree with you while considering questionable cases, but what if conviction in a given case is supported by eyewitness accounts, surveillance, and unquestionable evidence? If a person is a repeated child molesting killer why should he be allowed to live? Also how can life in prison be cheaper than execution?
The cost of appeals is enormous in the US. It really does cost more to fight a capital case to the point of execution than to lock someone up for 50 years.
308 | SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:58:07pm |
re: #109 rwmofo
Helen Thomas is pretty far down in that hole but seems to have an endless supply of shovels.
It's not a hole. She will be feted by people who want to hear her drivel for the rest of her life.
309 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:59:22pm |
310 | Four More Tears Wed, Dec 8, 2010 8:59:29pm |
re: #308 SanFranciscoZionist
It's not a hole. She will be feted by people who want to hear her drivel for the rest of her life.
Shouldn't you have gone back to Russia by now?
/
311 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:00:15pm |
What To Get The Hacker For Christmas
312 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:00:34pm |
re: #305 JasonA
Huh. Who knew Alaska would be on that list...
Right here...
After prolonged debate, the Alaska Territorial Legislature abolished capital punishment in 1957 in a briefly worded measure stating, "The death penalty is and shall hereafter be abolished as punishment in Alaska for the commission of any crime" (Lerman 1994). The abolition measure was sponsored by Warren Taylor and Vic Fischer. According to Vic Fischer, one factor motivating abolition was apparent racial bias in the application of the death penalty (Lerman 1994). A number of attempts have been made to reintroduce capital punishment to Alaska since 1957, but all so far have failed.
[Link: justice.uaa.alaska.edu...]
313 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:00:47pm |
re: #304 Gus 802
And try going to Germany and hold up a sign out in the street that says "fuck the Catholic church". See how long that lasts. Better yet try that in Poland.
I think Bruce Willis tried something along these lines in Harlem, it sorta worked out for him. Yippee ki-yay :)
314 | prairiefire Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:01:04pm |
re: #308 SanFranciscoZionist
It's not a hole. She will be feted by people who want to hear her drivel for the rest of her life.
Hi! Please see my #135 and #138. Night, lizards.
315 | Four More Tears Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:01:33pm |
re: #313 yasharki
I think Bruce Willis tried something along these lines in Harlem, it sorta worked out for him. Yippee ki-yay :)
Pure fiction.
316 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:02:10pm |
re: #311 Killgore Trout
What To Get The Hacker For Christmas
[Video]
VERY cool... in an ye old dude way
317 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:02:35pm |
318 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:03:12pm |
re: #306 Killgore Trout
They are also really into the Guy Fawkes thing. No Wonder the Paulians love them so much.
The funny part of that is that Guy Fawkes was actually a devout Catholic. If he'd had his way, he'd have sent an anarchistic person like these hackers to the Inquisition.
319 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:03:22pm |
320 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:04:31pm |
re: #316 boxhead
VERY cool... in an ye old dude way
Looks like their in studio computer in an Apple II,
321 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:06:47pm |
re: #311 Killgore Trout
What To Get The Hacker For Christmas
[Video]
Hmm. The guy with the beard died in 1994. Gary Kildall.
On July 8, 1994, Kildall fell at a Monterey, California biker bar and hit his head. [16] The exact circumstances of the injury remain unclear; however, he had suffered problems with alcoholism in his later years. [17] [18] Various sources have claimed he fell from a chair, fell down steps, or was assaulted because he walked in to the Franklin Street Bar & Grill wearing Harley-Davidson leathers.[8] He checked in and out of the hospital twice, and died three days later at the Community Hospital of Monterey Peninsula. The coroner's report identified the cause of death as blunt force trauma to the head. There was also evidence that he had experienced a heart attack, but an autopsy did not conclusively determine the cause of death.[15][19][20] He was buried in Evergreen-Washelli Cemetery in North Seattle.
322 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:06:48pm |
re: #320 Killgore Trout
Looks like their in studio computer in an Apple II,
yep... i learned assembly on that processor... :p
324 | freetoken Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:07:47pm |
re: #323 Gus 802
Now everyone's going to think I'm obsessed with death.
Or with computer nerds who like to visit biker bars.
325 | Varek Raith Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:08:12pm |
326 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:08:27pm |
re: #323 Gus 802
Now everyone's going to think I'm obsessed with death.
or just into Día de los Muertos..
327 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:09:48pm |
re: #323 Gus 802
Now everyone's going to think I'm obsessed with death.
You should slow down on your Faces of Death movie watching.
329 | simoom Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:11:05pm |
re: #298 Gus 802
That's not a very accurate portrayal of the death penalty in the USA. There are many states that don't have the death penalty.
Even though it's rarely used, the federal death penalty applies to the whole country.
330 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:11:40pm |
re: #323 Gus 802
Now everyone's going to think I'm obsessed with death.
you aren't????
///////////////// (Hope that's enough of them ... ;)
331 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:12:08pm |
332 | jamesfirecat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:12:57pm |
re: #306 Killgore Trout
They are also really into the Guy Fawkes thing. No Wonder the Paulians love them so much.
As I said before, in the general public mindset the Guy Fawks mask now represents V more than it represents Fawks.
Much like how nobody see's a Buddhist good luck charm when they look at a Swastika.
333 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:13:42pm |
re: #329 simoom
Even though it's rarely used, the federal death penalty applies to the whole country.
And the only two people its been used on since the 1960's deserved it clearly. The first of them being Timothy McViegh.
334 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:13:42pm |
335 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:15:00pm |
re: #333 Dark_Falcon
And the only two people its been used on since the 1960's deserved it clearly. The first of them being Timothy McViegh.
Who's the second?
336 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:16:11pm |
337 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:16:56pm |
re: #333 Dark_Falcon
And the only two people its been used on since the 1960's deserved it clearly. The first of them being Timothy McViegh.
Last military execution:
On April 13, 1961, U.S. Army Private John A. Bennett was hanged after being convicted of rape and attempted murder.
[Link: www.deathpenaltyinfo.org...]
338 | simoom Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:17:33pm |
re: #335 yasharki
Who's the second?
I don't know if this site is accurate, it's what a quick google search popped up, but here's what it claims:
[Link: www.deathpenalty.org...]
• There are 58 men and two women awaiting execution by the Federal government, as of May 14, 2010. Three people have been executed by the Federal government since 1963.
• Timothy McVeigh - Executed on June 11, 2001
• Juan Raul Garza - Executed on June 19, 2001
• Louis Jones - Executed on March 18, 2003
341 | simoom Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:20:28pm |
According to Wikipedia there's currently 8 U.S. military deathrow inmates.
342 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:20:31pm |
re: #333 Dark_Falcon
And the only two people its been used on since the 1960's deserved it clearly. The first of them being Timothy McViegh.
The processed moved along rather expeditiously for him. Just six years from committing the crime to his execution. It never goes that quickly when a state has jurisdiction.
343 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:22:52pm |
re: #341 simoom
According to Wikipedia there's currently 8 U.S. military deathrow inmates.
There are 8 here:
[Link: www.deathpenaltyinfo.org...]
Now, they can be changed to life as they have been before. Just because it's the military doesn't mean they won't get a re-hearing.
344 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:24:23pm |
re: #342 rwmofo
The processed moved along rather expeditiously for him. Just six years from committing the crime to his execution. It never goes that quickly when a state has jurisdiction.
Part of it was that the feds have only one automatic appeal and McVeigh refused further appeals. So there wasn't as long an appeals process.
345 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:24:29pm |
re: #343 Gus 802
There are 8 here:
[Link: www.deathpenaltyinfo.org...]
Now, they can be changed to life as they have been before. Just because it's the military doesn't mean they won't get a re-hearing.
Here's three that were changed to life.
William Kreutzer (W), a former Army Sergeant stationed at Ft. Bragg, N.C., was convicted of one specification of premeditated murder and 18 specifications of attempted murder, as well as one specification of violating a general order by transporting weapons on post. Kreutzer opened fire on a formation at Fort Bragg on October 27, 1995, killing one other Sergeant and wounding 18 soldiers, and killing Major Stephen Mark Badger. Now sentenced to life.
[Link: www.army.mil...]Wade Walker (B), a former Marine lance corporal at Camp Lejeune, N.C., was convicted of two counts of premeditated murder, one count each of adultery and kidnapping, and other felonies. Sentenced to death for the murders of two Lance Corporals in nearby Jacksonville, N.C. He was sentenced to life at a resentencing in Feb. 2010. He had been convicted and sentenced to death in 1993, along with Kenneth Parker, for the murder of 2 other Marines. (Marine Corps Times, Feb. 22, 2010).
Jessie Quintanilla (A) had his sentence reduced to life with the possibility of parole on Sept. 9, 2010. He had been convicted and sentenced to death for the fatal shooting of an officer and attempted murder of another soldier at Camp Pendleton in 1996. (L.A. Times, Sept. 22, 2010).
346 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:24:43pm |
re: #342 rwmofo
The processed moved along rather expeditiously for him. Just six years from committing the crime to his execution. It never goes that quickly when a state has jurisdiction.
Wasn't quick enough if you ask me, he should have been shot like a rabit dog instead of being allowed to write and give interviews...
348 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:28:37pm |
Oh noz! Guess who signed the Federal Death Penalty Act of 1994!
Title VI, the Federal Death Penalty Act, created about 60 new death penalty offenses, for crimes related to acts of terrorism, murder of a federal law enforcement officer, drug trafficking, civil rights-related murders, drive-by shootings resulting in death, the use of weapons of mass destruction resulting in death, and carjackings resulting in death.
The 1995 Oklahoma City bombing occurred a few months after this law came into effect, and the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 was passed in response, further increasing the federal death penalty. In 2001, Timothy McVeigh was executed for the murder of eight federal law enforcement agents under this title.
That's the same guy who signed off on DADT.
I can't help myself sometimes.
349 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:29:01pm |
re: #346 yasharki
Wasn't quick enough if you ask me, he should have been shot like a rabit dog instead of being allowed to write and give interviews...
I definitely understand the primal desire to hurt one who has caused pain to my loved ones..... That aside, I am not a DP fan. For me, it does not pass the smell test. If there is even the smallest chance an innocent can be put to death, I have to go against it.
350 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:33:13pm |
Well later gators. Have a wonderful evening!
352 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:33:38pm |
353 | engineer cat Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:34:16pm |
354 | BenghaziHoops Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:35:57pm |
re: #349 boxhead
I definitely understand the primal desire to hurt one who has caused pain to my loved ones... That aside, I am not a DP fan. For me, it does not pass the smell test. If there is even the smallest chance an innocent can be put to death, I have to go against it.
How convenient for thousands of convicted murders by a jury of their peers..Well at least they get 3 squares a day for their whole life...
/Charlie Manson is holding on line two
355 | rwmofo Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:36:28pm |
re: #349 boxhead
re: #349 boxhead
I definitely understand the primal desire to hurt one who has caused pain to my loved ones... That aside, I am not a DP fan. For me, it does not pass the smell test. If there is even the smallest chance an innocent can be put to death, I have to go against it.
Those of us who are for the death penalty don't want any doubt whatsoever. If the evidence isn't overwhelming and conclusive, the perp shouldn't be executed. If somehow, somewhere, someone in the US was executed, then exonerated by DNA, a confession, whatever, all executions would be halted for who knows how many years while things are "sorted out." If may have happened--in fact it's likely--before DNA could be used as evidence, but I would like to think it won't happen today.
356 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:39:01pm |
re: #354 HoosierHoops
How convenient for thousands of convicted murders by a jury of their peers..Well at least they get 3 squares a day for their whole life...
/Charlie Manson is holding on line two
And how many have been proven to be innocent via DNA? There was a recent Texas case that should have been reviewed due to faulty forensic evidence that was denied review. That person is dead now. One innocent life is not worth it. And that is besides my views of the State in that business.
357 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:39:04pm |
re: #349 boxhead
I definitely understand the primal desire to hurt one who has caused pain to my loved ones... That aside, I am not a DP fan. For me, it does not pass the smell test. If there is even the smallest chance an innocent can be put to death, I have to go against it.
I agree with you, as long as there is even a smallest hint of a doubt we should consider it and restrain from dishing out ultimate punishment. However, this wasn't the case with Timothy McVeigh, he was guilty beyond reasonable doubt. There are, were, and unfortunately will be similar cases, and personally I think perps in these cases need to be dealt with accordingly.
358 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:41:10pm |
re: #355 rwmofo
re: #349 boxhead
Those of us who are for the death penalty don't want any doubt whatsoever. If the evidence isn't overwhelming and conclusive, the perp shouldn't be executed. If somehow, somewhere, someone in the US was executed, then exonerated by DNA, a confession, whatever, all executions would be halted for who knows how many years while things are "sorted out." If may have happened--in fact it's likely--before DNA could be used as evidence, but I would like to think it won't happen today.
Then that creates a system where someone is more guilty that another. How does that work? Life, no parole, super max. problem solved.
359 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:41:13pm |
re: #354 HoosierHoops
The most ironic thing to me? My opposition to the death penalty is not based in my liberal tendencies. It is based in my latent Christianity. It flares up sometimes. I was raised that redemption is available until the last moment of life. As a Christian I cannot condemn another person to hell.
In a broader Christian sense? The decision of life and death is not mine.
360 | BenghaziHoops Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:42:08pm |
re: #356 boxhead
And how many have been proven to be innocent via DNA? There was a recent Texas case that should have been reviewed due to faulty forensic evidence that was denied review. That person is dead now. One innocent life is not worth it. And that is besides my views of the State in that business.
I do agree that DNA evidence should be in play in the 21st Century.. America should use up to date technology..
After that...There is also justice for the dead and the family.
361 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:43:23pm |
re: #348 Gus 802
To some of us the opposition to the death penalty has nothing to do with partisanship. At all.
362 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:44:55pm |
re: #357 yasharki
I agree with you, as long as there is even a smallest hint of a doubt we should consider it and restrain from dishing out ultimate punishment. However, this wasn't the case with Timothy McVeigh, he was guilty beyond reasonable doubt. There are, were, and unfortunately will be similar cases, and personally I think perps in these cases need to be dealt with accordingly.
yes... but having rules for more guilty than others is fodder for appeals. plus some States don't give a rat's arse about the distinction you mentioned. super max is punishment. death would be a release. and if a mistake was found out later... release for the person is still an option.
363 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:47:07pm |
re: #359 sizzleRI
The most ironic thing to me? My opposition to the death penalty is not based in my liberal tendencies. It is based in my latent Christianity. It flares up sometimes. I was raised that redemption is available until the last moment of life. As a Christian I cannot condemn another person to hell.
In a broader Christian sense? The decision of life and death is not mine.
Execution doesn't condemn a person to hell, it robs a person of life, no? In fact "a person" is something material while heaven and hell, where souls are supposed to go are all purely spiritual concepts.
364 | simoom Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:47:32pm |
re: #349 boxhead
I definitely understand the primal desire to hurt one who has caused pain to my loved ones... That aside, I am not a DP fan. For me, it does not pass the smell test. If there is even the smallest chance an innocent can be put to death, I have to go against it.
Even when those receiving the punishment aren't innocent, I have a real issue with how massively disproportionately it seems to be applied to minorities and, more specifically, minorities whose victim(s) were white. It's one thing for our justice system to be influenced by race and wealth, but those disparities become a far more bitter pill to swallow when a capital punishment outcome can enter into the equation.
365 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:47:51pm |
re: #361 sizzleRI
To some of us the opposition to the death penalty has nothing to do with partisanship. At all.
Yet apparently to some it has something to do with "conservative blood lust." Or something. Yet the Federal Death Penalty Act of 1994 was signed by William Jefferson Clinton.
That act added drug trafficking to the federal death penalty.
So yes, one can say. Sometimes support of the death penalty has nothing to do with partisanship.
366 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:47:56pm |
re: #360 HoosierHoops
I do agree that DNA evidence should be in play in the 21st Century.. America should use up to date technology..
After that...There is also justice for the dead and the family.
errors have been found even in the way we do DNA testing. Man is not perfect, therefore using a punishment that cannot be overturned seems wrong to me.
367 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:49:45pm |
re: #364 simoom
Even when those receiving the punishment aren't innocent, I have a real issue with how massively disproportionately it seems to be applied to minorities and, more specifically, minorities whose victim(s) were white. It's one thing for our justice system to be influenced by race and wealth, but those disparities become a far more bitter pill to swallow when a capital punishment outcome can enter into the equation.
yes... I did not throw that card down yet.... but I don't think I would be for DP even if those gross disproportions did not exist....
368 | BenghaziHoops Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:50:12pm |
re: #366 boxhead
errors have been found even in the way we do DNA testing. Man is not perfect, therefore using a punishment that cannot be overturned seems wrong to me.
I admire your principles
369 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:50:38pm |
re: #364 simoom
Even when those receiving the punishment aren't innocent, I have a real issue with how massively disproportionately it seems to be applied to minorities and, more specifically, minorities whose victim(s) were white. It's one thing for our justice system to be influenced by race and wealth, but those disparities become a far more bitter pill to swallow when a capital punishment outcome can enter into the equation.
Statistics is a funky thing, it can be hard to tell cause from effect unless your conclusion is supported by more statistics.
370 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:51:09pm |
re: #363 yasharki
A a Christian, at least how I was raised, the person must admit their guilt and ask for forgiveness. That redemption can come at any time, right up until the end. If you kill someone before they have the chance to repent, than that is condemning them to hell. Again, in the evangelical Christianity I was raised in. Now, I just think of it as not my choice.
371 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:51:25pm |
re: #363 yasharki
Execution doesn't condemn a person to hell, it robs a person of life, no? In fact "a person" is something material while heaven and hell, where souls are supposed to go are all purely spiritual concepts.
Exactly. Many are the Christian stories of the condemned who repented. Christian doctrine has always been that if someone's repentance was sincere, then God will forgive them and they will not go to Hell.
372 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:51:47pm |
I can see myself getting to the timeout point on this issue - there is no justice involved in an execution, only revenge. If that his good or ill, I refuse to deal with this evening. So with that statement, I'll beg indulgence and bow out for the night.
Take care lizards and I'll get myself into other trouble tomorrow.
373 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:52:21pm |
re: #368 HoosierHoops
I admire your principles
thanks.... I have gone the full spectrum on this topic... The older I get, the more precious life is to me. I can add other, spiritual reasons, but not here. That is when sharing a bottle of wine.... :)
374 | Dark_Falcon Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:54:31pm |
I'm worn out and I'm going to head to bed. Good night, all.
375 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:54:44pm |
re: #365 Gus 802
Sure. I disagree with many of President Clinton's policies and actions. The number one grievance I always cite is that he made sure to return to Arkansas so that an execution could be carried out. Against a person with the I.Q. of around 70. Who saved part of their last meal for "later". I don't care that he is a democrat. I don't care that Obama also supports the death penalty and is a democrat. To me, they are both wrong.
376 | BenghaziHoops Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:55:25pm |
re: #373 boxhead
thanks... I have gone the full spectrum on this topic... The older I get, the more precious life is to me. I can add other, spiritual reasons, but not here. That is when sharing a bottle of wine... :)
Wine? I grew up in Napa...If we shared a BV cab we could really talk...I have never been on a jury...But I must say OJ is dang lucky I wasn't on his...LOL
Be well
377 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:55:26pm |
re: #360 HoosierHoops
*smooch*
Because you are thinking about this.
379 | jc717 Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:55:37pm |
re: #284 steve
Wonder what would happen to Mr. Assange and his minions if they did the same thing to China and the USSR?
Polonium tea?
380 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:55:49pm |
re: #375 sizzleRI
Sure. I disagree with many of President Clinton's policies and actions. The number one grievance I always cite is that he made sure to return to Arkansas so that an execution could be carried out. Against a person with the I.Q. of around 70. Who saved part of their last meal for "later". I don't care that he is a democrat. I don't care that Obama also supports the death penalty and is a democrat. To me, they are both wrong.
That's acceptable. No one is saying one has to support the death penalty.
381 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:56:09pm |
re: #376 HoosierHoops
Wine? I grew up in Napa...If we shared a BV cab we could really talk...I have never been on a jury...But I must say OJ is dang lucky I wasn't on his...LOL
Be well
BV is good.. my fav is Shafer
382 | Dancing along the light of day Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:57:08pm |
re: #374 Dark_Falcon
Sleep well. Be prepared do do what you need to do, tomorrow.
383 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:57:25pm |
re: #371 Dark_Falcon
Exactly. Many are the Christian stories of the condemned who repented. Christian doctrine has always been that if someone's repentance was sincere, then God will forgive them and they will not go to Hell.
Right, this is sorta like get-out-of-jail-4-free card for a Christian :) In original monotheistic faith one can only be granted pardon for his/her sins by the person these sins were committed against, or by God if they were violations of God's law (commandments). You can't just walk up to a Rabbi and ask forgiveness, he'll tell you to go ask it from people you wronged, which makes more sense imho.
384 | boxhead Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:58:51pm |
I am done for the nite as well.... at least for now... great discussions.. all of you...
nite
385 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:59:20pm |
Does anybody teach manners anymore? It seems as though people will close their front door with the same strength regardless of the time. It can be noon and they'll slam it the same at 2 AM.
386 | jaunte Wed, Dec 8, 2010 9:59:23pm |
re: #376 HoosierHoops
...I have never been on a jury...
I hope you have that experience soon; it's really an eye-opener. Strangers thrown together at random, refreshing that so many take their responsibility seriously, and want to do the right thing.
387 | Killgore Trout Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:02:19pm |
388 | BenghaziHoops Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:02:36pm |
re: #377 Floral Giraffe
*smooch*
Because you are thinking about this.
Hi you! We had a manager from Silly Cone Valley come out today..She took us here cause it was supposed to be the best joint in Oklahoma...[Link: www.royal-bavaria.com...]
Everybody agreed everything sucked but dessert...LOL
It was free...Would this be considered a bad review on-line?
389 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:02:48pm |
re: #380 Gus 802
I didn't mean to imply that you thought everyone must support the death penalty. I just wanted to point out that opposition to it was not some partisan/lefty nonsense that people followed without thinking about it.
390 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:05:17pm |
OK I've got hypothetical question. Current legalities aside. Suppose you have an inmate. He's 30 years old and is roughly in the middle of a life sentence without the possibility of parole. He is at his wits end and decides that he can no longer live in prison until he dies of old age -- possibly facing another 50 years in prison.
He asks for assisted suicide.
Should he be allowed that option and should the state be allowed to carry out his wishes?
392 | Kragar Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:10:07pm |
re: #390 Gus 802
OK I've got hypothetical question. Current legalities aside. Suppose you have an inmate. He's 30 years old and is roughly in the middle of a life sentence without the possibility of parole. He is at his wits end and decides that he can no longer live in prison until he dies of old age -- possibly facing another 50 years in prison.
He asks for assisted suicide.
Should he be allowed that option and should the state be allowed to carry out his wishes?
Maybe he should have thought about life in prison before he committed his crime.
393 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:10:34pm |
re: #389 sizzleRI
I didn't mean to imply that you thought everyone must support the death penalty. I just wanted to point out that opposition to it was not some partisan/lefty nonsense that people followed without thinking about it.
The problem with death penalty opposition is that sometimes lifers get to walk free and influence society, due to amnesties, riots, break outs, revolutions, you name it... Sure there should be a very diligent process for making a decision to execute someone for their crimes, but it should still be an option.
394 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:13:16pm |
re: #18 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. Asange has made himself hated enough that much of the letter of the law may be cast aside. When you piss off enough powerful people, you're in for a world of hurt no matter what the law says.
Oh you don't need to be hated for the letter of the law to be cast aside, you just need to be a minority. :)
actually, I guess they are hated, judging by where the GOP is heading
395 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:13:49pm |
re: #390 Gus 802
OK I've got hypothetical question. Current legalities aside. Suppose you have an inmate. He's 30 years old and is roughly in the middle of a life sentence without the possibility of parole. He is at his wits end and decides that he can no longer live in prison until he dies of old age -- possibly facing another 50 years in prison.
He asks for assisted suicide.
Should he be allowed that option and should the state be allowed to carry out his wishes?
Why does he need assistance? So that he can go to Heaven or something? It isn't very hard to open one's veins or hang oneself on prison garb, if someone's determined to die why would they worry about getting assistance from his jailers???
396 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:14:11pm |
re: #393 yasharki
The problem with death penalty opposition is that sometimes lifers get to walk free and influence society, due to amnesties, riots, break outs, revolutions, you name it... Sure there should be a very diligent process for making a decision to execute someone for their crimes, but it should still be an option.
I'll take it over the state killing people. Can't appeal an execution.
You know what they say about liberty and security
398 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:15:21pm |
re: #395 yasharki
Why does he need assistance? So that he can go to Heaven or something? It isn't very hard to open one's veins or hang oneself on prison garb, if someone's determined to die why would they worry about getting assistance from his jailers???
it is if you're on suicide watch.
I have had relatives on suicide watch who weren't even in jail, they were just hospitalized. And EVERYTHING was checked. I couldn't enter with a freaking sharpie without them confiscating it.
399 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:15:53pm |
It's the year 2335. Technology allows people to be literally brainwashed. You can take a murderer and cleanse his mind of his past and remodel the inner workings of the brain to turn him into a model citizen. It's almost like turning a man from a James Cagney bad guy into a Jimmy Stewart character like in "It's a Wonderful Life." Is he still a murderer?
400 | Kragar Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:16:37pm |
re: #399 Gus 802
It's the year 2335. Technology allows people to be literally brainwashed. You can take a murderer and cleanse his mind of his past and remodel the inner workings of the brain to turn him into a model citizen. It's almost like turning a man from a James Cagney bad guy into a Jimmy Stewart character like in "It's a Wonderful Life." Is he still a murderer?
No, he's a character on Babylon 5.
402 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:17:18pm |
re: #392 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Maybe he should have thought about life in prison before he committed his crime.
live in prison is one thing, the cruel and unusual punishment of the reality of prison is something quite different
This is America, where people unabashedly root for rapists in prison and fantasize about rape happening to our enemies, i think if a guy in prison wants to check out, it should be a basic human right to let him. *shrug*
403 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:17:46pm |
re: #395 yasharki
Why does he need assistance? So that he can go to Heaven or something? It isn't very hard to open one's veins or hang oneself on prison garb, if someone's determined to die why would they worry about getting assistance from his jailers???
Heaven? I didn't give that any thought. I guess I'm asking a larger question.
If the state can take the life of a murderer do people have the right to assisted suicide?
404 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:17:48pm |
re: #399 Gus 802
It's the year 2335. Technology allows people to be literally brainwashed. You can take a murderer and cleanse his mind of his past and remodel the inner workings of the brain to turn him into a model citizen. It's almost like turning a man from a James Cagney bad guy into a Jimmy Stewart character like in "It's a Wonderful Life." Is he still a murderer?
No! He's a clockwork orange :D
405 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:18:11pm |
406 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:18:49pm |
re: #398 WindUpBird
it is if you're on suicide watch.
I have had relatives on suicide watch who weren't even in jail, they were just hospitalized. And EVERYTHING was checked. I couldn't enter with a freaking sharpie without them confiscating it.
A person get's on suicide watch iff they've vocally raised their desire to commit suicide or after an unsuccessful suicide attempt, both of which are desperate cries for attention rather than actual attempts to end one's life...
407 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:18:49pm |
re: #403 Gus 802
ahahaha we can't let this guy kill himself because then his astral form might get to go to a place we made up!
408 | Kragar Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:19:44pm |
re: #407 WindUpBird
ahahaha we can't let this guy kill himself because then his astral form might get to go to a place we made up!
Or he'll make a deal with the devil and become living electricty and hunt people thru the TV.
409 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:19:44pm |
410 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:19:57pm |
re: #408 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Or he'll make a deal with the devil and become living electricty and hunt people thru the TV.
SHOCKER!
411 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:19:57pm |
re: #403 Gus 802
Ack, I had a better thought out response that was eaten.
I will say that in most states in this country, and according to the federal government, no citizen has the right to assisted suicide. I would change that and extend that right to prisoners.
413 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:20:35pm |
quick, anyone remember the name of the Desmond Child supergroup that did the theme to Shocker?
Hint, The D**** ** *****
414 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:21:30pm |
re: #412 Gus 802
Guess my name got attached to that by accident.
yeah, that happens to me a lot when I switch gears midpost
415 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:22:04pm |
416 | Kragar Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:22:44pm |
re: #413 WindUpBird
quick, anyone remember the name of the Desmond Child supergroup that did the theme to Shocker?
Hint, The D*** ** ***
Dudes of Wrath.
417 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:23:11pm |
re: #406 yasharki
After visiting my sister in a psychiatric hospital for a suicide attempt when she was 16 years old, and then driving her to the emergency room last year after an overdose, you can seriously go fuck yourself.
418 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:23:13pm |
re: #411 sizzleRI
Ack, I had a better thought out response that was eaten.
I will say that in most states in this country, and according to the federal government, no citizen has the right to assisted suicide. I would change that and extend that right to prisoners.
Had another weird thought before. What if we give them an option. Life in prison or the death penalty. Which I suppose the latter would be a form of suicide since they would have to consent.
419 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:23:30pm |
420 | Kragar Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:23:53pm |
421 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:23:55pm |
re: #417 sizzleRI
After visiting my sister in a psychiatric hospital for a suicide attempt when she was 16 years old, and then driving her to the emergency room last year after an overdose, you can seriously go fuck yourself.
Oh we seem to have a couple things in common o_o
423 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:24:31pm |
re: #420 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I liked that movie. Very underated horror movie.
Oh it rocks I love movies like that, sorta under the radar fun horror and scifi from the 80's and 90's
424 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:25:26pm |
One right after the other. Blam! Closing the door like idiots. Don't people wake up when they hear that or is that just in the movies?
425 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:25:39pm |
re: #406 yasharki
A person get's on suicide watch iff they've vocally raised their desire to commit suicide or after an unsuccessful suicide attempt, both of which are desperate cries for attention rather than actual attempts to end one's life...
Please go choke on a cock in hell, please do that for me and then shit yourself
426 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:26:37pm |
re: #403 Gus 802
Heaven? I didn't give that any thought. I guess I'm asking a larger question.
If the state can take the life of a murderer do people have the right to assisted suicide?
Sure, it's their life, why the hell not? Only I think the question was never about people having rights to end their life (what does a corpse care if it had a right to die?), it's about allowing someone to be the assistant, no?
427 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:26:43pm |
re: #425 WindUpBird
Aww, thanks. Said as angry and disgusted as I wanted mine to be!
428 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:29:15pm |
re: #427 sizzleRI
we can be tired of internet beardo know-it-all shitstains together!
429 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:29:56pm |
re: #418 Gus 802
So, this comes up. A death row inmate wants to end their appeals and accept the death penalty. Their lawyers will sometimes not respect this and try to keep fighting, maybe for the cause or maybe for the sanctity of life. I think it is the inmates choice. Its his life.
430 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:30:09pm |
re: #425 WindUpBird
Please go choke on a cock in hell, please do that for me and then shit yourself
They got cocks in hell? I thought it was full of chickens. Seriously tho, you need to chill out, I apologize for any offense my opinions may have caused, but your childish outburst is way out of line.
431 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:30:30pm |
re: #426 yasharki
Sure, it's their life, why the hell not? Only I think the question was never about people having rights to end their life (what does a corpse care if it had a right to die?), it's about allowing someone to be the assistant, no?
Death and dying are two different things. Assisted suicide would require a mental lead up to that position and it would also involve a process of dying.
432 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:31:34pm |
re: #430 yasharki
They got cocks in hell? I thought it was full of chickens. Seriously tho, you need to chill out, I apologize for any offense my opinions may have caused, but your childish outburst is way out of line.
This isn't an apology. Try again or fuck off.
433 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:33:57pm |
You'd think someone that could successfully navigate the internet would have at least a rudimentary awareness of the fact that brain chemistry can make people act in unusual or self-injurious ways, but I guess that's too much to ask
434 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:34:14pm |
re: #429 sizzleRI
So, this comes up. A death row inmate wants to end their appeals and accept the death penalty. Their lawyers will sometimes not respect this and try to keep fighting, maybe for the cause or maybe for the sanctity of life. I think it is the inmates choice. Its his life.
Many here:
[Link: www.deathpenaltyinfo.org...]
435 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:34:59pm |
re: #430 yasharki
Interesting. I replied to you along the same lines as WindUpBird, and I did it first. Why not respond to me? Because you would look like way more of an asshole?
436 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:36:28pm |
re: #433 WindUpBird
Well now, brain chemistry is just being too pussy to live. Sorry.
To anyone reading this, that is not actually an exaggeration of what I have heard.
437 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:37:55pm |
re: #434 Gus 802
For awhile it was a debate within the community of death penalty opponents. Did the clients or cause matter more? Maybe it has been resolved.
438 | Gus Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:38:26pm |
re: #436 sizzleRI
Well now, brain chemistry is just being too pussy to live. Sorry.
To anyone reading this, that is not actually an exaggeration of what I have heard.
And look at all the recent military suicides. Many strong men have taken their own lives.
439 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:44:37pm |
re: #433 WindUpBird
You'd think someone that could successfully navigate the internet would have at least a rudimentary awareness of the fact that brain chemistry can make people act in unusual or self-injurious ways, but I guess that's too much to ask
Brain chemistry is a defining motor function for all your thoughts, actions, movements, dreams, desires, etc. However humans as a society have so far relied on person's actions for judgment, not their brain chemistry at the moment. It's an interesting concept, looked at in some science fiction, but unused yet in practice...
440 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:51:03pm |
re: #439 yasharki
I am going to be kind and assume my inability to understand this is based on the language barrier. I know English is not your first.
442 | goddamnedfrank Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:53:52pm |
re: #439 yasharki
Brain chemistry is a defining motor function for all your thoughts, actions, movements, dreams, desires, etc. However humans as a society have so far relied on person's actions for judgment, not their brain chemistry at the moment. It's an interesting concept, looked at in some science fiction, but unused yet in practice...
Meet Dan White.
443 | yasharki Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:54:07pm |
re: #440 sizzleRI
I am going to be kind and assume my inability to understand this is based on the language barrier. I know English is not your first.
Thanks :) I'm not sure I understand my rant either, it's just hard to be coherent while trying to answer seemingly unwarranted insults.
444 | sagehen Wed, Dec 8, 2010 10:55:44pm |
re: #390 Gus 802
OK I've got hypothetical question. Current legalities aside. Suppose you have an inmate. He's 30 years old and is roughly in the middle of a life sentence without the possibility of parole. He is at his wits end and decides that he can no longer live in prison until he dies of old age -- possibly facing another 50 years in prison.
He asks for assisted suicide.
Should he be allowed that option and should the state be allowed to carry out his wishes?
Surely there's someone he can pick a fight with who'll take care of it for him...
445 | sizzleRI Wed, Dec 8, 2010 11:10:29pm |
re: #441 Gus 802
Night Gus, me too.
WindUpBird, thanks for getting it. It is nice to not have to explain.
446 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 9, 2010 12:27:51am |
re: #445 sizzleRI
nick is blue if you wanna chat, anytime
451 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 2:11:50am |
re: #403 Gus 802
I'll answer.
Yes, people have the right to assisted suicide, at any point, as long as their doctor agrees to it. That means that person would have to be actually suicidal in a way the doctor felt was not ever going to be overcome. That's probably a rare case.
The brainwash question is actually a technically tricky one based on how you're actually changing the brain. Amnesia doesn't remove memories, it removes the ability to access those memories, but they still apparently have some sort of force in the brain. We don't know what would happen if you actually removed someone's memories-- it might not be something that's possible.
452 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 2:31:40am |
re: #83 Gus 802
You know. For a while there I was reading about Scientology. I soon realized that while Scientology is a strange outfit, people like "anonymous" have Scientology Derangement Syndrome. They're pretty obsessed and the anti-Scientology people are almost a cult themselves.
That is true. In the beginning of 00's when I was reading up on scn I used to hang around IRC channels run by various factions of alt.religion.scientology. There were (then) interesting people like Arnie Lerma, Bob Minton (now dead), the guy running Lisa McPherson Trust (now defunct) and the other critics. 10 years have passed. Recently I logged onto one such leftover channel. The same people talking about the same topics. There is a good site about the anti-Scn phenomenon - somewhat biased, but in other respects eye-opening.
453 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 2:32:55am |
re: #452 Sergey Romanov
(Which is not to say I'm gonna diss useful sites like xenu.net)
454 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 2:40:44am |
re: #166 Gus 802
But they wouldn't kill a peace loving person like Bradley Manning. They never do.
//
Not that I support anything more than a prison sentence for Manning, but this reminded me of this :)
455 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 2:43:31am |
re: #194 Gus 802
Here he is...
[Link: www.executedtoday.com...]
Killed 8 kids on March 23rd . Executed on April 28th
It would be even quicker in Stalin's USSR. Just sayin'.
456 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 2:47:27am |
re: #255 Dark_Falcon
I disagree. In the cases of the men Gus referred to their guilt had been decisively proven (the spree killer in China was caught literally red-handed) and their crimes unrepented. Such remorseless multi-murderers deserve only death. Nothing else is a fit punishment.
It's not about who deserves what. Of course they deserve death. They just shouldn't be killed by the state. There is no clear border between crimes "decisively proven" and those just "proven". It's either proven in court or not. And courts make mistakes. I don't think death penalty is barbaric per se. But as long as there are false positives, there should be no death penalty.
457 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 2:50:22am |
re: #304 Gus 802
And try going to Germany and hold up a sign out in the street that says "fuck the Catholic church". See how long that lasts. Better yet try that in Poland.
Which only shows that these countries have some rather unseemly vestiges of the past. So what. Why should anyone mimic the worst parts?
458 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 2:52:57am |
459 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 2:56:15am |
re: #456 Sergey Romanov
It's not about who deserves what. Of course they deserve death. They just shouldn't be killed by the state. There is no clear border between crimes "decisively proven" and those just "proven". It's either proven in court or not. And courts make mistakes. I don't think death penalty is barbaric per se. But as long as there are false positives, there should be no death penalty.
It's also just pointless. It achieves nothing. There's never been any psychological study showing benefit to the friends of the victim after the execution.
460 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:11:58am |
It's 11 degrees out side.
This is completely unacceptable.
I demand that Obama move the Earth closer to the sun.
461 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:18:05am |
462 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:20:20am |
re: #461 Sergey Romanov
Oh man, I used to have this awesome book, an atlas of fictional worlds. I can't remember the name of it now.
That thing ruled. I think an ex-girlfriend sold it to buy drugs.
463 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:21:58am |
464 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:25:07am |
465 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:28:19am |
re: #464 Sergey Romanov
Shades of Borges. Neat, I see Calvino did the introduction to it.
I've seen the couple-to-alligator transformation; didn't know there was a whole book. Thanks.
466 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:28:38am |
467 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:34:32am |
For anyone who hasn't seen it:
One of the best dance sets I've ever done, by amateurs on a street corner in Oakland.
468 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:34:34am |
re: #466 Varek Raith
I remember that.
Odd, to say the least.
But neat.
Some pages remind me very much of Shintaro Kago's idiosyncratic drawings (with the difference being that Kago has a really sick mind :-) ).
469 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:36:57am |
re: #468 Sergey Romanov
Ever heard of the Throne Of The Third Heaven Of The Nations Millennium General Assembly ?
471 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:42:14am |
re: #469 Obdicut
Ever heard of the Throne Of The Third Heaven Of The Nations Millennium General Assembly ?
If I did, I certainly don't remember it... Thanks.
473 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:46:48am |
re: #471 Sergey Romanov
I'm a big fan of art like that. It tends to be so good spirited. I don't know what to really call it. Folk? Disconnected from the mainstream? Crazy? It is what it is.
I mean, the overarching message of the piece is 'Fear Not'. That's a good motto.
I also like this place a lot, I used to visit it a bunch.
Cayuga Park:
[Link: sanfrancisco.about.com...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
474 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:50:25am |
California officials to burn 'bomb factory' house
(CNN) -- A federal judge has cleared the way for authorities to burn down a Southern California home that has been called the site of the nation's largest-ever cache of homemade explosives.The judge's ruling means officials can proceed with the burn at noon ET Thursday.
George Djura Jakubec had asked the judge Wednesday to delay the razing of his home so his lawyer could retrieve evidence, but the judge ruled against the appeal.
Authorities have called the home a "bomb factory" and said they have to burn the home because it was too dangerous for bomb squads to re-enter.
Dozens of residents will be evacuated and part of a nearby interstate will be shut down during the burn, the San Diego Sheriff's Department said.
Numerous bomb experts and hazardous materials teams will be on site to help with the burn, the sheriff's department said.
The case began November 18 when officials found about nine pounds of hexamethylene triperoxide diamine, or HMTD, in the backyard of the home after a gardener accidentally ignited some of the material.
One expert likened the nine pounds to a large car bomb, which could have blown out the house's windows and doors and damage adjacent houses.
Inside the home, bomb crews discovered more HMTD and another type of homemade explosive: pentaerythritol tetranitrate (PETN).
Jakubec, a 54-year-old computer software consultant, was arrested and is being held in lieu of $5 million bail on bomb-making and bank robbery charges.
475 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:08:18am |
re: #469 Obdicut
Ever heard of the Throne Of The Third Heaven Of The Nations Millennium General Assembly ?
Doesn't 'zactly roll of the tongue!!
Maybe they should shorten it to TOTHNMGA!!
((or maybe not!!))
//
476 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:09:41am |
477 | freetoken Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:14:35am |
If it's good enough for egg-nog, it's good enough for...
Nutmeg Treated as Drug for Hallucinogenic High
A sprinkle of nutmeg in eggnog or a pinch in apple pie can add the perfect punch to a holiday dessert. But winter's favorite spice has also made headlines as an unconventional way of getting high -- it's called a nutmeg high.
Nutmeg contains myristicin, a natural compound that has mind-altering effects if ingested in large doses. The buzz can last one to two days and can be hallucinogenic, much like LSD.
According to reports this week from the ABC affiliate WPLG in Miami, the Florida Poison Information Center at Jackson Memorial Hospital has recently seen a small spike in phone calls reporting people who snorted, smoked or ate the spice.
"It's the flavor of the month," said Dr. Jeffrey Bernstein, medical director at the center. "But most people only try it once because they have such nasty side effects. The rewards are not worth the risks."
[...]
478 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:17:17am |
479 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:18:36am |
re: #477 freetoken
If it's good enough for egg-nog, it's good enough for...
heh,, 'splains why people in the grocery store just stand and sort of stare at the spice rack!
480 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:19:48am |
To act on a public letter by the executive branch of government rather than awaiting a court's decision...
481 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:22:33am |
482 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:23:04am |
483 | RogueOne Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:23:59am |
re: #167 Killgore Trout
I think extraditing Assange on espionage charges is what's really going to send ripples through Wikileaks. They are suddenly going to realize the game they are playing has consequences for them.
Yesterday I said the feds would find a law to charge him under even if they have to stretch it to make it fit. Using a 100 yr old law designed to silence critics of WW1 seems to be that stretch.
484 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:24:06am |
re: #481 Obdicut
Ellipses disease.
Care to finish your thought?
he's one of those in the spice aisle staring at the nutmeg!
485 | jamesfirecat Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:24:43am |
re: #390 Gus 802
OK I've got hypothetical question. Current legalities aside. Suppose you have an inmate. He's 30 years old and is roughly in the middle of a life sentence without the possibility of parole. He is at his wits end and decides that he can no longer live in prison until he dies of old age -- possibly facing another 50 years in prison.
He asks for assisted suicide.
Should he be allowed that option and should the state be allowed to carry out his wishes?
No he shouldn't.
The point of life in prison should that they have to spend their entire lives there.
He should be put on a suicide watch and possibly moved to some sort of psychiatric facility where he won't be able to get the tools to kill himself (at least not easily) but I don't believe in giving someone that easy an "out"
486 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:25:25am |
re: #481 Obdicut
Ellipses disease.
Care to finish your thought?
I think there is a good reason why private businesses should not act as willful agents of the executive branch of government. Preemptive obedience is no substitute for being law-abiding, quite the contrary.
487 | jamesfirecat Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:25:36am |
re: #393 yasharki
The problem with death penalty opposition is that sometimes lifers get to walk free and influence society, due to amnesties, riots, break outs, revolutions, you name it... Sure there should be a very diligent process for making a decision to execute someone for their crimes, but it should still be an option.
Name one person who has escaped from a Supermax facility.
One.
488 | RogueOne Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:25:41am |
489 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:27:49am |
re: #486 000G
I think there is a good reason why private businesses should not act as willful agents of the executive branch of government. Preemptive obedience is no substitute for being law-abiding, quite the contrary.
What are you referring to?
490 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:28:45am |
re: #489 Obdicut
What are you referring to?
I can only guess its VISA/ MasterCard holding WikiLeaks monies!
491 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:28:58am |
re: #487 jamesfirecat
And keeping them in prison is also cheaper.
There is only one reason I can think of to execute, and it's not really a good reason: if that person continues to kill people while in prison.
492 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:31:33am |
re: #489 Obdicut
What are you referring to?
PayPal and their disregard for the principle of the presumption of innocence in a due process sort of understanding of the law.
493 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:33:34am |
re: #492 000G
PayPal and their disregard for the principle of the presumption of innocence in a due process sort of understanding of the law.
Let's just ignore the fact that Wikileaks violated PayPal's ToS.
Which would be grounds for terminating said account.
494 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:34:21am |
re: #492 000G
PayPal and their disregard for the principle of the presumption of innocence in a due process sort of understanding of the law.
I'm sorry, are you under the impression that paypal is a part of the government or otherwise subject to the principle of presumption of innocence?
495 | freetoken Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:34:40am |
re: #478 Obdicut
And to note:
Do not do this. It is really fucking bad for you.
Yes, the rest of the article outlines some of the nasties.
496 | jamesfirecat Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:35:24am |
re: #491 Obdicut
And keeping them in prison is also cheaper.
There is only one reason I can think of to execute, and it's not really a good reason: if that person continues to kill people while in prison.
Yeah, but if you keep them in a secure enough prison that's not hard to avoid....
Have there ever been any inter prison killings in a supermax?
497 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:35:48am |
re: #493 Varek Raith
Let's just ignore the fact that Wikileaks violated PayPal's ToS.
Which would be grounds for terminating said account.
I was referring to what the guy in the video in the OP said, in case you didn't watch it.
498 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:36:07am |
re: #495 freetoken
Yes, the rest of the article outlines some of the nasties.
Man, people are dumb.
We just sit around looking for stuff to smoke, snort or inhale.
/
499 | freetoken Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:36:12am |
Not surprising, but still offensive:
500 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:36:23am |
re: #496 jamesfirecat
Yeah, that's why I said it wasn't a very good reason.
501 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:36:27am |
re: #494 Obdicut
I'm sorry, are you under the impression that paypal is a part of the government or otherwise subject to the principle of presumption of innocence?
No, I am not under that impression. But thank you for asking instead of outright propping up that assumption as a straw-man.
502 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:38:24am |
re: #501 000G
Then how does presumption of innocence apply? Do you think you're required to presume everyone is innocent in all your transactions and relations in the world?
Look, if someone go into a pawnshop and tries to sell a bike, and the store owner has been told by the police that this bike might be stolen, that store owner can refuse to buy the bike, right? No violation of rights there?
503 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:38:54am |
re: #497 000G
I was referring to what the guy in the video in the OP said, in case you didn't watch it.
I was referring to PayPal's official reason for terminating Wikileak's account.
“PayPal has permanently restricted the account used by WikiLeaks due to a violation of the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy, which states that our payment service cannot be used for any activities that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity. We’ve notified the account holder of this action.”
504 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:40:34am |
What really bugs me about this is that we have these incredibly unfair and stupid asset forfeiture laws in place in this country that allow police to seize assets without proving they've been involved in a crime. They're allowed to actually take them, and keep them, and sell them, and in order to get them back, you have to sue for it.
But for some reason, the time that people get upset isn't during the years upon years that this is going on, but when a private entity suspends a service because of what they see as a violation of their TOS based on being told that the people they're dealing with may be criminals.
Makes no fucking sense. This, to me, is the equivalent of the Tea Party idiots getting irate about taxes and spending right after Obama was elected.
505 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:45:31am |
re: #499 freetoken
The group, based in Topeka, Kan., travels nationally to picket funerals.
Wonder if that reads into their church's charter.
"Jesus loves you. We picket funerals."
506 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:46:15am |
Next up, publishing the design plans for our nuclear arsenal.
And the locations of all our covert reconnaissance assets.
Secrecy is baaaddd!
507 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:47:13am |
re: #505 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
They don't think Jesus loves you. They think Jesus hates everyone but them, basically.
508 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:48:45am |
re: #507 Obdicut
They don't think Jesus loves you. They think Jesus hates everyone but them, basically.
509 | RogueOne Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:49:13am |
re: #506 Varek Raith
[Link: www.state.gov...]
The United States is pleased to announce that it will host UNESCO’s World Press Freedom Day event in 2011, from May 1 - May 3 in Washington, D.C. UNESCO is the only UN agency with the mandate to promote freedom of expression and its corollary, freedom of the press.The theme for next year’s commemoration will be 21st Century Media: New Frontiers, New Barriers. The United States places technology and innovation at the forefront of its diplomatic and development efforts. New media has empowered citizens around the world to report on their circumstances, express opinions on world events, and exchange information in environments sometimes hostile to such exercises of individuals’ right to freedom of expression. At the same time, we are concerned about the determination of some governments to censor and silence individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information. We mark events such as World Press Freedom Day in the context of our enduring commitment to support and expand press freedom and the free flow of information in this digital age.
Irony.
510 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:50:26am |
re: #509 RogueOne
[Link: www.state.gov...]
Irony.
Heh.
I like wikileaks "logic".
It's so...
Illogical.
XD
511 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:54:22am |
re: #510 Varek Raith
Obviously, a free press means an absolutely free press with no restrictions on it whatsoever. What's the problem with that?
There is one thing that people who are criticizing the governmental reaction are right about; Assange is not the legal and practical problem. He's a cultural problem. Wikileaks is not the real problem. The leakers are the actual problem. You're never going to stop the leaks by going after organized websites that publish them. If the entire recording industry, game industry, and movie industry can't combine to stop pirates from zero-day hacking open every single game, album, and movie ever made, then why on earth would you think you'd be able to stop the distribution of text files?
If Assange has actively encouraged people to break the law in order to get him classified info, then obviously, that's a crime. I think he may have, based on what Manning said. But if 'all' he's done is republish info that was leaked to him by people who purely volunteered it, then the government will be idiotic to try to try him for that.
I think it's also important to ask any supporter of Assange whether or not they support Manning, as well.
512 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:55:31am |
re: #511 Obdicut
Obviously, a free press means an absolutely free press with no restrictions on it whatsoever. What's the problem with that?
There is one thing that people who are criticizing the governmental reaction are right about; Assange is not the legal and practical problem. He's a cultural problem. Wikileaks is not the real problem. The leakers are the actual problem. You're never going to stop the leaks by going after organized websites that publish them. If the entire recording industry, game industry, and movie industry can't combine to stop pirates from zero-day hacking open every single game, album, and movie ever made, then why on earth would you think you'd be able to stop the distribution of text files?
If Assange has actively encouraged people to break the law in order to get him classified info, then obviously, that's a crime. I think he may have, based on what Manning said. But if 'all' he's done is republish info that was leaked to him by people who purely volunteered it, then the government will be idiotic to try to try him for that.
I think it's also important to ask any supporter of Assange whether or not they support Manning, as well.
Exactly.
I'm so confused by wikileak supporters.
513 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:56:03am |
re: #502 Obdicut
Then how does presumption of innocence apply? Do you think you're required to presume everyone is innocent in all your transactions and relations in the world?
No, I do not think that. I think it's just very bad business policy to simply accept any argument that the executive branch of government is making. Analogy in the ISP world: An ISP usually does not simply shut down any hosting for their clients because government agencies make the claim that their content is illegal (although that used to be the case before ISPs had business standard sets of lawyers and were just run by geeks who did not want to be hassled by the authorities) but only after such a claim has been substantiated with warrants, prosecutions, convictions, etc.
Look, if someone go into a pawnshop and tries to sell a bike, and the store owner has been told by the police that this bike might be stolen, that store owner can refuse to buy the bike, right? No violation of rights there?
No, no violations of rights. I did not mention rights. Police is different from the executive branch, btw.
514 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:57:22am |
re: #503 Varek Raith
I was referring to PayPal's official reason for terminating Wikileak's account.
“PayPal has permanently restricted the account used by WikiLeaks due to a violation of the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy, which states that our payment service cannot be used for any activities that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity. We’ve notified the account holder of this action.”
Whether or not an activity has been or is illegal is usually decided by independent courts in a lawful society, that is my point.
515 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:59:50am |
re: #513 000G
I think it's just very bad business policy to simply accept any argument that the executive branch of government is making.
So now your criticism isn't about presumption of innocence, or rights, but just about whether or not it's a good business strategy? Well, you may be right. And if you are, then those that cut off service will pay the price for it.
Analogy in the ISP world: An ISP usually does not simply shut down any hosting for their clients because government agencies make the claim that their content is illegal (although that used to be the case before ISPs had business standard sets of lawyers and were just run by geeks who did not want to be hassled by the authorities) but only after such a claim has been substantiated with warrants, prosecutions, convictions, etc.
If they get a note saying that that site is hosting illegal shit, and they took a look and saw stuff that looked like illegal shit, then yes, many ISPs would immediately take it down.
My old ISP, Speakeasy, a very geek-run ISP, froze my account because of torrenting and a copyright claim at one point. No warrant, no prosecution, no conviction. A suspension of service and a polite note that basically said, "You probably didn't realize this shit is illegal, but we feel it is and it violates our TOS."
No, no violations of rights. I did not mention rights. Police is different from the executive branch, btw.
How so? What are the important differences here?
516 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:00:05am |
re: #514 000G
Whether or not an activity has been or is illegal is usually decided by independent courts in a lawful society, that is my point.
True,, but if an entity (in this case PayPal) believes the client has violated the TOS that entity has the "right" to deny service
THEN the "aggrieved" party has the option of taking the entity to court
517 | RogueOne Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:00:06am |
re: #512 Varek Raith
Exactly.
I'm so confused by wikileak supporters.
There isn't any defense for Manning, he should be tried and hung. Along with breaking the law, he violated 2 separate oaths and dishonored his uniform.
518 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:00:15am |
I think I'll just remain confused on the issue of wikileaks.
It'll be good for my sanity.
;)
519 | RogueOne Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:01:01am |
re: #516 sattv4u2
True,, but if an entity (in this case PayPal) believes the client has violated the TOS that entity has the "right" to deny service
THEN the "aggrieved" party has the option of taking the entity to court
Paypal has a long history of denying their service to people for the flimsiest of reasons. It's their service, they can do as they please.
520 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:02:41am |
re: #517 RogueOne
There isn't any defense for Manning, he should be tried and hung. Along with breaking the law, he violated 2 separate oaths and dishonored his uniform.
I get that.
What I don't get is where are all those who support Assange?
Why aren't they defending Manning to this degree?
They seem to have just forgotten him.
521 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:03:12am |
re: #515 Obdicut
So now your criticism isn't about presumption of innocence, or rights, but just about whether or not it's a good business strategy? Well, you may be right. And if you are, then those that cut off service will pay the price for it.
It is not that now, it has been that from the get-go: It is bad business policy to practice preemptive obedience instead of relying on the courts.
If they get a note saying that that site is hosting illegal shit, and they took a look and saw stuff that looked like illegal shit, then yes, many ISPs would immediately take it down.
"Looked like illegal shit". Yeah, water-tight argument there. I will not even bother to refute that.
My old ISP, Speakeasy, a very geek-run ISP, froze my account because of torrenting and a copyright claim at one point. No warrant, no prosecution, no conviction. A suspension of service and a polite note that basically said, "You probably didn't realize this shit is illegal, but we feel it is and it violates our TOS."
A bad ISP. I assume you changed services because of that.
How so? What are the important differences here?
I don't think you know much about government or society if I need to explain to you the fundamental and structural difference between, say, the LAPD and the DOJ.
522 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:04:16am |
re: #516 sattv4u2
True,, but if an entity (in this case PayPal) believes the client has violated the TOS that entity has the "right" to deny service
THEN the "aggrieved" party has the option of taking the entity to court
Once again: I did never deny that they have that right.
And yes, in case of the Wau Holland Foundation (google that), they are taking PayPal to court over PayPal just freezing their account because they were fundraising money for WikiLeaks.
523 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:05:34am |
524 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:05:54am |
re: #522 000G
Once again: I did never deny that they have that right.
And yes, in case of the Wau Holland Foundation (google that), they are taking PayPal to court over PayPal just freezing their account because they were fundraising money for WikiLeaks.
Oh yeah, one of the cases the Wau Holland Foundation is making: Libel. They claim PayPal was libeling them by claiming the Wau Holland Foundation had engaged in illegal activity.
And that is exactly why you let the courts decide these matters.
525 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:05:54am |
re: #522 000G
Once again: I did never deny that they have that right.
And yes, in case of the Wau Holland Foundation (google that), they are taking PayPal to court over PayPal just freezing their account because they were fundraising money for WikiLeaks.
It looked (from here) that you were arguing it the other way around.
COURT 1st THEN (if they win) PayPal shutting them off (instead of payPal shutting them off THEN court)
526 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:06:13am |
re: #523 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
YOU CALLING ME GAY!?!?
/
Awesome way to break the tension in a serious thread.
XD
527 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:06:17am |
528 | RogueOne Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:06:30am |
re: #520 Varek Raith
I get that.
What I don't get is where are all those who support Assange?
Why aren't they defending Manning to this degree?
They seem to have just forgotten him.
I don't necessarily like what Assange has done or his reasoning but if the feds are going to harass someone they could at least come up with a viable charge before releasing the hounds. I'm not convinced that Assange has broken any law but I know for a fact that Manning violated the trust that the Army gave him when he gave his enlistment oath and again when he signed his clearance paperwork. Manning is nothing more than a spy (in my opinion) and spies deserve to be shot.
529 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:06:54am |
re: #521 000G
It is not that now, it has been that from the get-go: It is bad business policy to practice preemptive obedience instead of relying on the courts.
Why do you believe this?
"Looked like illegal shit". Yeah, water-tight argument there. I will not even bother to refute that.
You can't really refute a hypothetical.
A bad ISP. I assume you changed services because of that.
No, I didn't. They were a great ISP. Why do you say they were bad?
I don't think you know much about government or society if I need to explain to you the fundamental and structural difference between, say, the LAPD and the DOJ.
I don't think you know much about attempting to convince people of the merits of your argument if you're simply going to say "It's different but I can't explain how".
The police are, in many ways, very similar to the executive branch. They don't decide their policies, they carry out the law. They execute it. That's why US Marshalls and other federal law enforcement personnel are part of the Executive branch.
If it helps you engage with the analogy, feel free to change the person telling the pawn shop owner to member of the FBI or a federal Marshall.
530 | RogueOne Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:07:34am |
531 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:08:12am |
re: #530 RogueOne
FBV isn't pretty enough to be gay.
I have pictures of him in a tutu!! His tushy is DEVINE!
(don't ask!!)
532 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:08:15am |
re: #523 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
YOU CALLING ME GAY!?!?
/
Oh please, a vegetarian? Everyone knows what that means.
/
533 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:11:27am |
Funny story. My wife called me gay a couple of weeks ago. A running gag in our house.
I heard her come into the garage, was watching a football game, but before she made it to the family room I had changed the channel to "Moulin Rouge"... so that's what she saw me watching.
Her scream was fantastic.
534 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:12:26am |
re: #511 Obdicut
This is a really interesting question.
I said a few days ago, the UK went through this with the Spycatcher book where a retired MI5 agent wrote his story - blew the whistle on a load of things. And - as the NYT said then: [Link: query.nytimes.com...]
"How can the British correct what they cannot even sensibly debate? Who will believe straight-faced denials about matters otherwise deemed unfit to print?"
The thing is, I believe, this isn't about the matter that is being printed, it is about the effect of the reaction to what is being printed.
Until Assange/Wikileaks has been charged - he's not done anything illegal. There is suspicion - but no charge.
And as for Manning - did he believe he would be covered under whistle blowing protection? Or was he just a glory hound?
Did he act on his conscience?
535 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:12:54am |
re: #533 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Funny story. My wife called me gay a couple of weeks ago. A running gag in our house.
I heard her come into the garage, was watching a football game, but before she made it to the family room I had changed the channel to "Moulin Rouge"... so that's what she saw me watching.
Her scream was fantastic.
Kevin James (as Doug Heffernen),, is that YOU!?!?
536 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:12:54am |
re: #533 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
The only nickname I've ever had was "Princess" and I look really good in pink and own a lot of it.
However, my propensity for having sex with women kinda ruins the 'gay' thing for me.
537 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:14:15am |
re: #534 harlequinade
Until Assange/Wikileaks has been charged - he's not done anything illegal. There is suspicion - but no charge
You may want to rephrase that
People do illegal things every DAY and never get charged. Doesn't mean they didn't committ a crime!
538 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:15:03am |
re: #534 harlequinade
Until Assange/Wikileaks has been charged - he's not done anything illegal. There is suspicion - but no charge.
Well, no. If he gets convicted, then what he did was illegal at the time he did it. I think what you mean is that until he's convicted, he's not legally a criminal.
But again: i'm not sure what relevance this has. Any government entity has to treat him as though he is presumed innocent. But any private entity is not so bound.
539 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:15:28am |
re: #525 sattv4u2
It looked (from here) that you were arguing it the other way around.
COURT 1st THEN (if they win) PayPal shutting them off (instead of payPal shutting them off THEN court)
re: #529 Obdicut
Why do you believe this?
I don't feel like repeating myself.
You can't really refute a hypothetical.
Sure I can. By arguing its absurdity and inconsistency.
No, I didn't. They were a great ISP. Why do you say they were bad?
Because they acted on a whim and outside bullying? I sure as hell would not want to do business with a company that would not defend their customers over outside forces by the usual means of legal due process.
I don't think you know much about attempting to convince people of the merits of your argument if you're simply going to say "It's different but I can't explain how".
And I don't think you know much about government and social institutions.
By the way, police does not execute the law, they enforce it (important difference). To enforce the law is their duty. The duty is what they are carrying out. I am glad I was able to clear up your confusion there.
540 | RogueOne Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:17:13am |
re: #534 harlequinade
This is a really interesting question.
.......And as for Manning - did he believe he would be covered under whistle blowing protection? Or was he just a glory hound?
Did he act on his conscience?
Manning doesn't have a defense. He doesn't get to decide what is important to keep classified and what isn't. He willfully violated the law and his oath.
541 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:17:27am |
re: #538 Obdicut
Any government entity has to treat him as though he is presumed innocent.
I think you meant to say: Any government entity has to presume him innocent.
542 | RogueOne Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:18:09am |
re: #537 sattv4u2
Until Assange/Wikileaks has been charged - he's not done anything illegal. There is suspicion - but no charge
You may want to rephrase thatPeople do illegal things every DAY and never get charged. Doesn't mean they didn't committ a crime!
Now you sound like a federal prosecutor!
545 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:20:17am |
re: #525 sattv4u2
It looked (from here) that you were arguing it the other way around.
COURT 1st THEN (if they win) PayPal shutting them off (instead of payPal shutting them off THEN court)
I am not sure what you mean.
546 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:20:40am |
re: #539 000G
I don't feel like repeating myself.
You haven't actually ever explained why it's a bad business policy. So you wouldn't be repeating yourself.
Because they acted on a whim and outside bullying?
They didn't act on a whim. They acted on a completely correct claim that I was tormenting a copyrighted work. Why is that a whim?
I sure as hell would not want to do business with a company that would not defend their customers over outside forces by the usual means of legal due process.
Just because you call them the usual legal means doesn't actually mean they are, you know. You're begging the question repeatedly in your argument.
They had 99.99% uptime, great customer service, and never had any hidden fees, charges, etc. They also didn't allow torrenting of copyrighted materials-- and if I can remind you again, a private entity doesn't have to hold itself to the standards of a court of law in terms of proof.
And I don't think you know much about government and social institutions.
Then demonstrate that.
By the way, police does not execute the law, they enforce it (important difference).
Please explain the difference to me, since you know so much more about government and social institutions than I do. What is the difference between executing the law and enforcing the law?
547 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:21:43am |
re: #541 000G
I think you meant to say: Any government entity has to presume him innocent.
I prefer my version, actually, since what I'm emphasizing is what effect that presumption has. Do you understand why I stressed the 'treat' part?
548 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:22:02am |
re: #545 000G
I am not sure what you mean.
You (seemed) to have been saying Paypal shouldn't have been able to do anything (deny service) until the courts decided if assange had done something criminally
549 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:23:08am |
re: #548 sattv4u2
He's actually making the narrower argument that they shouldn't have, not that they shouldn't have been able to. As in, they should-- from a business policy perspective-- defend their customers more.
550 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:24:16am |
re: #538 Obdicut
Because the private entities appear to be working either at the behest of Government, or following the uproar against Assange.
Also, according to Amazon's reasoning - put up and examined here: [Link: memex.naughtons.org...]
They say:
Amazon Web Services (AWS) rents computer infrastructure on a self-service basis. AWS does not pre-screen its customers, but it does have terms of service that must be followed. WikiLeaks was not following them. There were several parts they were violating. For example, our terms of service state that “you represent and warrant that you own or otherwise control all of the rights to the content… that use of the content you supply does not violate this policy and will not cause injury to any person or entity.” It’s clear that WikiLeaks doesn’t own or otherwise control all the rights to this classified content. Further, it is not credible that the extraordinary volume of 250,000 classified documents that WikiLeaks is publishing could have been carefully redacted in such a way as to ensure that they weren’t putting innocent people in jeopardy. Human rights organizations have in fact written to WikiLeaks asking them to exercise caution and not release the names or identities of human rights defenders who might be persecuted by their governments.
But hasn't Greenwald been arguing this all week: "Unlike earlier disclosures by WikiLeaks of tens of thousands of secret government military records, the group is releasing only a trickle of documents at a time from a trove of a quarter-million, and only after considering advice from five news organizations with which it chose to share all of the material. "They are releasing the documents we selected," Le Monde's managing editor, Sylvie Kauffmann, said. . . . "The cables we have release[d] correspond to stories released by our main stream media partners and ourselves. They have been redacted by the journalists working on the stories, as these people must know the material well in order to write about it," WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange said . . . "
So - Assange is working with a number of newspapers and then printing what his print advisers suggest he should.
551 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:25:23am |
re: #546 Obdicut
You haven't actually ever explained why it's a bad business policy. So you wouldn't be repeating yourself.
No, I have. You may want to reread.
They didn't act on a whim. They acted on a completely correct claim that I was tormenting a copyrighted work. Why is that a whim?
Even a whim can be correct. Difference between factual and procedural accuracy.
Just because you call them the usual legal means doesn't actually mean they are, you know.Oh, but they are. I suggest you look out the window some day.
You're begging the question repeatedly in your argument.
Just because you say so doesn't mean I actually am, you know.
and if I can remind you again, a private entity doesn't have to hold itself to the standards of a court of law in terms of proof.
I never said they had to.
Then demonstrate that.
I think I did by letting you do that.
Please explain the difference to me, since you know so much more about government and social institutions than I do. What is the difference between executing the law and enforcing the law?
Sorry, I am not getting paid to school you and have a baby to feed right now. You can look those up. They are fairly standard legal terms. You should find them no problem.
552 | Coracle Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:25:48am |
Wanna buy the Wikileaks cables?
You can do it on Amazon now.
Hypocrisy?
Internal subversion?
553 | Varek Raith Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:25:53am |
554 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:26:04am |
re: #550 harlequinade
Because the private entities appear to be working either at the behest of Government, or following the uproar against Assange.
And? Why aren't they allowed to 'follow the uproar', or to believe the government when they assert that Assange is doing something illegal?
555 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:26:25am |
re: #540 RogueOne
If he thought he was acting in a better interest by blowing a whistle - and I'm not saying one way or another that he did - is he protected by a whistle blowing cover?
556 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:27:38am |
re: #507 Obdicut
They don't think Jesus loves you. They think Jesus hates everyone but them, basically.
Here's a perfect description of their Jesus:
The space behind the pulpit was dominated by a gigantic portrait of Christ, and Burt thought: If nothing else in this town gave Vicky the screaming meemies, this would.The Christ was grinning, vulpine. His eyes were wide and staring, reminding Burt uneasily of Lon Chaney in The Phantom of the Opera. In each of the wide black pupils someone (a sinner, presumably) was drowning in a lake of fire. But the oddest thing was that this Christ had green hair, hair which on closer examination revealed itself to be a twining mass of early-summer corn. The picture was crudely done but effective. It looked like a comic-strip mural done by a gifted child-an Old Testament Christ, or a pagan Christ that might slaughter his sheep for sacrifice instead of leading them.
Also:
He fluttered the pages of the Bible, and they made a dry whispering sound in the quiet - the sound that ghosts might make if there really were such things. And in a place like this you could almost believe it. Sections of the Bible had been chopped out. Mostly from the New Testament, he saw. Someone had decided to take on the job of amending Good King James with a pair of scissors.
But the Old Testament was intact.
557 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:29:19am |
re: #551 000G
No, I have. You may want to reread.
I reread. I didn't see anywhere you explained why it was bad business policy. I saw where you asserted it. If you're actually interested in getting your argument across, then please either repost what your argument was, or simply direct me to the post where it was.
Oh, but they are. I suggest you look out the window some day.
I saw a grackle. I'm slightly unsure how this relates.
You are asserting that something is usual, but you're not, in any way, even attempting to back up that claim.
I never said they had to.
No, but you're saying that they should. I'm wondering why.
Sorry, I am not getting paid to school you and have a baby to feed right now. You can look those up. They are fairly standard legal terms. You should find them no problem.
In other words, no, you can't actually support your argument. It's a rather poor one, especially since the standard term for what police do when using a warrant is to 'execute' it.
You do realize that saying "I don't have to prove my points you ought to know this, you're ignorant" isn't really a good way to make an argument, right?
558 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:29:30am |
re: #554 Obdicut
Because that's a Govt acting extra-judicially.
Look at this:
A message from Guardian editor in chief Alan Rusbridger
You ask: we search
We're now around 10 days into coverage of the embassy cables. We've done a thorough job of searching for themes, people and issues, but we know we'll have missed many intriguing and important stories. What have we missed? What would you be searching for if you were sitting in front of the database?
We'll do our best to look. We can't, as the agony aunts say, enter into personal correspondence or hand out information or individual cables. But we can look for material that could be reported in the Guardian, or on WikiLeaks' own site, or with the four other news organisations involved. The rule of thumb is that we'll use our news judgements, as we have with all the cables we've looked at so far.
Simply tweet @gdncables with the information you're interested in. We're working with a search engine, remember, so it would help greatly if you could give us:
- Search terms
- Rough dates (the main archive runs from 2005 to Feb 2010)
- The likely embassy involved ( eg 'Moscow', or 'Kampala')
So you might say @gdncables Oil Spills June 2003 Angola
Our resources aren't infinite - but we'll do our best, so please be a *little* patient!
Is the US Govt going to ask the UK Govt to shut down The Guardian?
Is it going to put pressure on Amazon to take it off it's Kindle Service?
Is it going to suggest that Visa and Mastercard not accept payments for it?
559 | Coracle Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:31:01am |
Or would you prefer a wikileaks IP t-shirt
Is Amazon inventory insertion an automated process? If so, this and the book may simply be irony instead of hypocrisy. It'll only turn into the latter if those products stay up after the staff finds them.
560 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:31:24am |
re: #558 harlequinade
Because that's a Govt acting extra-judicially.
How so?
You do realize that the case is being made that Assange solicited classified material, right, which is entirely different from publishing it after it became generally available?
And the one US court case that was settled on this determined that, while the government cannot stop, by injunction, the printing of available classified information, it can still prosecute those who publish.
561 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:33:24am |
re: #549 Obdicut
He's actually making the narrower argument that they shouldn't have, not that they shouldn't have been able to. As in, they should-- from a business policy perspective-- defend their customers more.
I know. Thats not Paypals "job" (to defend their customers)
They CAN do that if they choose too
They SHOULD do that in some instances
But they don't HAVE to do that
562 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:34:07am |
re: #561 sattv4u2
And Paypal is historically an asshole about accounts in general, suspending stuff at the drop of a hat. That is their historic business policy.
563 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:35:26am |
Grackles are awesome. They always look so insane and pissed-off.
564 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:36:08am |
re: #560 Obdicut
Ok - so if I call Visa and say "Hey, I'm going to start prosecuting the Guardian. They have illegally obtained documents and are now offering to publish that at the wishes of the people. They are actively seeking others to aid in the illegal publishing of those documents."
What do you think Visa would do?
565 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:39:16am |
re: #560 Obdicut
And the one US court case that was settled on this determined that, while the government cannot stop, by injunction, the printing of available classified information, it can still prosecute those who publish.
Then they should prosecute.
They shouldn't heavily suggest that others cut off funding.
566 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:39:45am |
re: #564 harlequinade
I'm sorry, but do you see the difference between saying that and saying "The Guardian is actively soliciting that people obtain classified documents"?
567 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:41:01am |
re: #565 harlequinade
Then they should prosecute.
They shouldn't heavily suggest that others cut off funding.
So the government shouldn't, in any way, communicate to those involved that they feel what Assange did was illegal and they will be prosecuting?
568 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:42:31am |
re: #566 Obdicut
I do.
But...supposition, your honor. The prosecution is suggesting this to find a reason to be able to prosecute the accused.
570 | sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:44:11am |
re: #565 harlequinade
Then they should prosecute.
They shouldn't heavily suggest that others cut off funding.
huh?!?!
Lets say the gov't has reason to believe that an enterprise I'm trying to start is illegal. Wouldn't it be prudent of them to tell a bank (heavily suggest) that I'm trying to get financing from for said enterprise that they (the bank) may not want to get in bed with me??
572 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:45:34am |
re: #568 harlequinade
What?
re: #569 harlequinade
Why should they?
So that those companies can decide, for themselves, what action to take in regards to their customer.
Do you think those companies would rather find out that the government is going to prosecute one of their customers through a phone call or by reading a press release?
I mean, isn't what you're actually implying is that there's some sort of threat made by the government to these institutions? Not just that they communicated the information about the prosecution? Or am I misunderstanding your nuance?
573 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:50:49am |
re: #572 Obdicut
I subscribe, I feel, to the viewpoint of the Icelandic payment processor who is going to seek legal action against Visa.
Visa is a go between. The customer's wish to send money to Wikileaks is covered by the contract between customer and Visa.
If Visa is going to change it's contract, then that's a contract change of which the customer should be notified. And, as a Visa customer, should I decide that I want to stay with them.
But to have that cut off because "We say it's a crime, even though we can't tell you the law that was broken" - that.. that just doesn't seem right.
575 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:51:46am |
re: #573 harlequinade
And can you clarify whether your problem is with the government communicating to Visa that they're going to prosecute, or with the actions that Visa took, or both, or what?
576 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:59:12am |
Hang on - doing 2 things at once. I have a reply but I want to let you know I've not walked away.
577 | dmon Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:08:18am |
I would imagine that Visa and Paypal have enormous legal resources on staff to advise them. A simple call from the state department wouldnt be enough to have them shut down.
More likely the government complained, a team of lawyers looked at the situation and determined the activities were likely illegal.
If the FBI contacted Visa that a certain customer was selling child porn, they investigated and found that to be the case, Visa would not wait two years until the people involved were proven guilty in a court of law to shut down the transactions.
Wikileaks does not have some fundamental human right to process transations thru Visa or Paypal.
578 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:11:17am |
re: #577 dmon
Yeah, a lot of the implication seems to be that the government is threatening these companies, which, to me, is a laughable inversion of the actual power structure in the US. Companies aren't scared of the government.
579 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:12:24am |
re: #575 Obdicut
Oooh.
You mean - Can I state a position?
I have a problem with the handling of the whole affair.
Assange is being targets - but not the print partners who have also handled the material.
Wikileaks has, for 4 years, been publishing, editorializing, and writing about things that people would prefer to keep secret. And for those 4 years that hasn't been a problem.
The wikileaks release is being done in conjunction with 4 newspapers - but they aren't being targeted.
The closing down of support for a perceived whistle blowing safe haven, and the perceived political hounding of that haven is leaving a bad taste in the mouthes of a number of areas of the internet - not just the Anonymous side who is intent on waging the first info war.
Added to that the rank hypocrisy of being able to buy the cables on Kindle while Amazon shuts down wikileaks servers for carrying those cables.
With Visa and the Icelandic company who insists that the customer and visa have a contract and who is going to seek legal means of opening the gateway to Wikileaks. And, when it was suggested that this was the case, was threatened with having their processing status revoked and a lengthy audit carried out unless they shut up and did what they were told.
And - it is assumed that what wikileaks did was illegal. Which means that the papers they are working with are guilty of the same crime.
Assange may be an ego-maniac who started to believe his own press, but that's not a crime.
580 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:19:30am |
re: #579 harlequinade
Assange is being targets - but not the print partners who have also handled the material.
As I said: I think there's an important distinction that Assange appears to have solicited classified information.
Wikileaks has, for 4 years, been publishing, editorializing, and writing about things that people would prefer to keep secret. And for those 4 years that hasn't been a problem.
Sure, you can say there's an element of hypocrisy there. But it's not an actual defense. Just because someone got away with something for awhile doesn't mean they get to keep getting away with it.
The wikileaks release is being done in conjunction with 4 newspapers - but they aren't being targeted.
Have those companies also distributed an encrypted file that contains who-knows-what on it? There are significant differences between Wikileaks and those newspapers. Including, as above, that Wikileaks has apparently solicited the classified info.
The closing down of support for a perceived whistle blowing safe haven, and the perceived political hounding of that haven is leaving a bad taste in the mouthes of a number of areas of the internet - not just the Anonymous side who is intent on waging the first info war.
Info wars are old as time. Ghenghis Khan waged a very good one.
It is evidently obvious this is leaving a 'bad taste'. I'm asking why.
Added to that the rank hypocrisy of being able to buy the cables on Kindle while Amazon shuts down wikileaks servers for carrying those cables.
Yes, that's really dumb.
With Visa and the Icelandic company who insists that the customer and visa have a contract and who is going to seek legal means of opening the gateway to Wikileaks. And, when it was suggested that this was the case, was threatened with having their processing status revoked and a lengthy audit carried out unless they shut up and did what they were told.
Can you link to something about that, please?
And again, have you read that contract?
And - it is assumed that what wikileaks did was illegal. Which means that the papers they are working with are guilty of the same crime.
Do you not yet get the part about the difference between soliciting classified info and distributing info that's given to you without solicitation?
Assange may be an ego-maniac who started to believe his own press, but that's not a crime.
I agree. However, if he actively encouraged Manning, or anyone else, to release classified info to him, then it is, in fact, a crime. And very reasonably so.
I assume you don't also thing that Manning is innocent of a crime?
581 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:24:07am |
And another turf dancing video as an interlude:
582 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:34:56am |
And hell, a full on turf dancing battle.
Fucking amazing display of talent here.
I wish the world could get as excited about awesome shit like this as they do about diplomatic cables where one guy said the other guy was a douche.
583 | srjh Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:39:28am |
re: #577 dmon
More likely the government complained, a team of lawyers looked at the situation and determined the activities were likely illegal.
It's not clear that anything that specific can be inferred from the situation.
All we really know is that they considered the situation and realised it was in their corporate interests to cut Wikileaks off. There are a number of ways that can happen without assuming Wikileaks' activities are illegal.
In fact, given that several governments around the world seem to be drawing blanks in their search for something to get Wikileaks for, there are likely other factors at play.
584 | lawhawk Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:40:26am |
re: #577 dmon
People don't seem to understand that companies are free to contract with whatever parties them deem fit. They are not required to host companies that are antithetical to their own interests on servers, process payments, or advertise for them. If contracts were signed between the parties (or Assange and his cohorts clicked on assenting to TOS for using PayPal, servers, etc.), then they are bound to those contracts.
Violations of TOS, which can include any number of criminal activities, or hate speech, incitement to violence, etc., can result in shutdown. Wikileaks is hosting illegally obtained information and classified information. Companies are not required to aid and abet wikileaks criminal activities, which is the jist of those who are now hacking ABC News, Visa, and others who are apparently trying to extricate themselves from connections with wikileaks over TOS violations (among other things).
If a company wants to sully its reputation by remaining connected with wikileaks via hosting, payment services, etc., that's up to the individual company, but I'm sure that legal staff on more reputable organizations are going to shy away from those connections.
585 | srjh Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:41:08am |
Whoops - broke the quote in my above post. Should be clear where it ends, I hope...
586 | Daniel Ballard Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:42:47am |
re: #582 Obdicut
Hello,
On a kinda related note.
Later today I'll page my mini documentary, Patrick Polk Talks Busking in LA. Poor guy gets tickets for playing places like train stations without a permit. The permit cost...
Hold on to something-
$10,000!!!
As if street artists could ever.. The man did 8 days in county for unpaid tickets.
587 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:46:18am |
re: #580 Obdicut
re: #580 Obdicut
First - you know why I love this site? Because on every other conversation, I sit firmly behind Obdicut. And to be able to debate this rationally when my position is an airy-fairy notional "this isn't right" one knowing that, at the end of the day, I'm going to be back behind you again is great.
Ok - that said.
As I said: I think there's an important distinction that Assange appears to have solicited classified information.Do you not yet get the part about the difference between soliciting classified info and distributing info that's given to you without solicitation?
Assertion of fact.
I agree. However, if he actively encouraged Manning, or anyone else, to release classified info to him, then it is, in fact, a crime. And very reasonably so.
Question.
Yes - if he did, then that's a crime.
If.
And then it's going to be very interesting to see what happens to the media outlets that supported that.
Sure, you can say there's an element of hypocrisy there. But it's not an actual defense. Just because someone got away with something for awhile doesn't mean they get to keep getting away with it.
No - but we don't know if he did encourage Manning or not.
Suppose he didn't. Suppose Manning leaked them (which I'll come back to).
What happens then? Do we then all go "Oops. That was a bit heavy handed"?
Have those companies also distributed an encrypted file that contains who-knows-what on it? There are significant differences between Wikileaks and those newspapers. Including, as above, that Wikileaks has apparently solicited the classified info.
Re: encrypted file. Being a cock who believes his own press isn't a crime.
588 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:46:39am |
Sorry - wall of text. Comment too long. here's the second bit
It is evidently obvious this is leaving a 'bad taste'. I'm asking why.
Fallout. With torrent sites being pulled down, and the start of a DNS-less internet with .p2p as the domain name, the start of Darknets - like freenet.
The internet is being fractured.
Jon Snow - Channel 4 News in the UK said: "Sooner or later it was inevitable that a state, or a corporate entity, or the combination of both would conjure concerns of ‘national security’ in a bid to contain the web. It looked very much as if the first war would be that between China and Google. That was eventually fudged into the current no-score draw. There have been many other instances involving countries as disparate as Saudi Arabia and Russia, Iran and more. Indeed, there are plenty of states who restrict their own peoples’ access to the web and would like to restrict the content of the web worldwide. But in the latter regard so far they have failed.
But in the war over Wikileaks, matters have taken a dramatic turn for the worse. Not only is a state, the US, out on the battlefield clear for all to see, but that state has been attempting to marshal other states to join them in affecting what goes onto the web." [Link: blogs.channel4.com...]
While I don't want to appear a word wanker - as a netizen, that concerns me.
(Actually, it's related but an aside, this is interesting:[Link: blogs.channel4.com...]
Can you link to something about that, please?And again, have you read that contract?
I haven't read it. I read this: [Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]
The thing about Visa is halfway down, I'll see if I can link just that bit... No. I can't. It's at 2:04: 2.04pm:An IT firm that helps WikiLeaks collect payments is threatening to sue Visa and MasterCard, writes Josh Halliday.
I assume you don't also thing that Manning is innocent of a crime?
I question whether he did. Did he think he'd be covered as a whistle blower? What was his intent?
589 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:46:59am |
re: #586 Rightwingconspirator
Fucking seriously?
I love buskers. Sure, some suck, but some rule, and it's better than a guy just saying "Gimme some change."
Fuck LA.
San Francisco, for the record, has no busking laws. It falls under noise ordinance provisions.
590 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:47:44am |
re: #581 Obdicut
I love those videos. I used to breakdance, back in the day. Nowhere near as good as those guys, but that "on a corner, with your crew" thing was brilliant.
591 | Walter L. Newton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:50:09am |
re: #586 Rightwingconspirator
Hello,
On a kinda related note.
Later today I'll page my mini documentary, Patrick Polk Talks Busking in LA. Poor guy gets tickets for playing places like train stations without a permit. The permit cost...
Hold on to something-$10,000!!!
As if street artists could ever.. The man did 8 days in county for unpaid tickets.
Looking to hear some nice, free music this summer? You could do a lot worse than to head underground. In the subway stations of Europe's biggest cities, busking is surprisingly popular, not just among tourists but among locals and city officials as well. Sometimes the music is even good.
That's because the competition has really heated up. Once the province of every amateur accordion player and karaoke crooner, busking in many places now requires a permit. In Paris, where there are 360 licensed subway musicians, only one in three makes the cut. Rotterdam started giving out busking licenses in 2000. And just last month London, where illegal buskers have long waged a guerrilla war with police, acceded to the demands of the public (eight in 10 say they want music in the Tube) and made the practice legal. Over the next four months, auditions will create a pool of some 300 musicians who will rotate through the Underground.
[Link: www.newsweek.com...]
My all-time favorite spots I've played so far have either been Kreisler & Wieniawski at the Cathedral of Notre Dame (Paris) or English carols around a Christmas bonfire in Santa Fe (after cutting the fingertips off a pair of old gloves). I try to keep money I make (~$50 in Paris) circulating by passing it off to other more needy (and better?) buskers. Sometimes I sink it into a new instrument or gear.
[Link: www.violinist.com...]
592 | Four More Tears Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:50:13am |
How does one respond to something like this:
Social Conservative Bryan Fischer: Blame The Gays For WikiLeaks
Bryan Fischer, the "Director of Issues Analysis" for the conservative Christian group the American Family Association, wrote on his blog this week that gays -- not Julian Assange -- are responsible for the thousands of government documents released by Assange's WikiLeaks.More specifically, Fischer assumes that the alleged WikiLeaks source Private Bradley Manning was "at minimum" seriously confused about his sexuality. He then really stretches things when he suggests that Manning leaked the documents to wage war on the military's Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy.
594 | Daniel Ballard Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:53:43am |
re: #589 Obdicut
I like buskers. You are right at least they have a skill and an angle.
Noise ordinances-That's exactly how they do it here. Or vague disturbing the peace crap. Public streets are fine, but where you might make some money like a train platform or fare machine area-off limits. Oh, the City of LA bought the famous Pershing Square park and underground parking lot. Guess what? Now, no video with out a permit. Heh he got hassled over the "no loud electronics" (subway station rules) rule with his acoustic guitar. Pathetic!!
595 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:56:13am |
re: #587 harlequinade
Y
es - if he did, then that's a crime.
If.And then it's going to be very interesting to see what happens to the media outlets that supported that.
I'm not sure you're getting the fine distinction I'm trying to make, between the solicitation of documents, and supporting the publication of documents that have been solicited by someone else. Maybe you don't think there should be such a distinction.
Similarly, the police are not allowed to do a lot of various surveillance stuff. However, if a civilian does such surveillance evidence obtained from that surveillance can be used. So if the police get a plain brown wrapper with private information, they're allowed to use it, both in investigation and prosecution.
No - but we don't know if he did encourage Manning or not.
Suppose he didn't. Suppose Manning leaked them (which I'll come back to).
What happens then? Do we then all go "Oops. That was a bit heavy handed"?
There may be other ways in which the publication of the information is illegal, as well. But yes, as I've repeatedly said, if Assange didn't solicit the information but instead is 'just' distributing it-- along with many other parties-- then there's a much weaker case against him.
Re: encrypted file. Being a cock who believes his own press isn't a crime.
I'm sorry, what does that have to do with the encrypted file? I was drawing a distinction between the way the newspapers have behaved and the way Assange has. The newspapers have not distributed an encrypted file, the contents of which are unknown, with a veiled threat that, if bad things happen to him, he will release the key for it.
I question whether he did. Did he think he'd be covered as a whistle blower? What was his intent?
Can you cite a whistleblower law that would cover a military person releasing classified information? Even from a common sense point of view, the whistleblowing only makes sense to the extent that what he was revealing was evidence of war crimes or other crimes. Much of what he released was not related to illegal activities, so how can a whistleblower defense be used?
596 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:57:14am |
re: #594 Rightwingconspirator
In SF, noise ordinances can't be used against non-amped stuff before 10:00 PM. So as long as you're acoustic, you're good until then.
597 | Walter L. Newton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:00:52am |
re: #596 Obdicut
In SF, noise ordinances can't be used against non-amped stuff before 10:00 PM. So as long as you're acoustic, you're good until then.
Here is how Paris is going to try to deal with noisy streets late in the evening...
"Paris mimes to remind raucous revellers to be quiet"
Talks on Friday in Paris looked at nighttime noise levels, which have been on the rise since a 2008 ban on smoking in bars and clubs drove more revellers outdoors. Troops of mimes and clowns will be mobilised to remind people to keep the noise down.
[Link: www.france24.com...]
598 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:02:43am |
re: #595 Obdicut
Y
I'm not sure you're getting the fine distinction I'm trying to make, between the solicitation of documents, and supporting the publication of documents that have been solicited by someone else. Maybe you don't think there should be such a distinction.
There may be other ways in which the publication of the information is illegal, as well. But yes, as I've repeatedly said, if Assange didn't solicit the information but instead is 'just' distributing it-- along with many other parties-- then there's a much weaker case against him.
That last bit is what I'm getting at.
I'm sorry, what does that have to do with the encrypted file? I was drawing a distinction between the way the newspapers have behaved and the way Assange has. The newspapers have not distributed an encrypted file, the contents of which are unknown, with a veiled threat that, if bad things happen to him, he will release the key for it.
Assange is a cock with a flair of the dramatic. That doesn't make him guilty of espionage. It makes him a cock.
Can you cite a whistleblower law that would cover a military person releasing classified information? Even from a common sense point of view, the whistleblowing only makes sense to the extent that what he was revealing was evidence of war crimes or other crimes. Much of what he released was not related to illegal activities, so how can a whistleblower defense be used?
Wait - I'll be clearer. I don't hold an opinion on what he did. I question what he thought he was doing. If he thought he was acting nobly, with a patriotic cause, then he has his justification.
But that probably comes back to that Spycatcher thing. He broke the official secrets act. The English Govt gagged him. Everyone else printed it. The English Govt dealt with it.
599 | lawhawk Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:02:48am |
re: #591 Walter L. Newton
NYC has a competition to obtain permits for playing music at some of the busiest subway stations in the system (think Grand Central, Times Square, 14th Street, 34th/Penn Station, Port Authority, etc.) There are some amazing musicians who participate in the program.
600 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:03:02am |
Good morning lizards!
German police seize marijuana Christmas tree
A two-metre (six-foot) marijuana plant decorated as a Christmas tree was confiscated from the home of "an old hippie", who is now facing a drug possession charge, German police said Wednesday.
In a tongue-in-cheek press release titled "All you need is love or how a hippie celebrates Christmas," police in the western city of Koblenz said they discovered the giant plant in the living room of the suspect.
"The two-metre-tall marijuana plant had been put in a Christmas tree stand and decorated with a string of lights," the police said.
"When asked, the hashish fan told the perplexed officers that he had intended to add more decorations to the 'tree' and place the presents under it, according to tradition."
Police seized the plant and another 150 grams (5.3 ounces) of marijuana found in the apartment.
German authorities on Tuesday said that a 21-year-old man in the southern city of Munich had been detained with a homemade Advent calendar with cannabis behind each little door instead of chocolate.
The suspect was released but now faces charges of possessing drugs.
601 | Walter L. Newton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:05:04am |
re: #599 lawhawk
NYC has a competition to obtain permits for playing music at some of the busiest subway stations in the system (think Grand Central, Times Square, 14th Street, 34th/Penn Station, Port Authority, etc.) There are some amazing musicians who participate in the program.
I know... I've seen them in NYC. ANd as far as I know, those buskers in Paris audition for those permits... and it's can be a lucrative profession.
Here is a picture of a puppeteer busker I took at the Gare de Lyon train/subway station (think Grand Central)...
602 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:05:20am |
re: #598 harlequinade
Wait - I'll be clearer. I don't hold an opinion on what he did. I question what he thought he was doing. If he thought he was acting nobly, with a patriotic cause, then he has his justification.
Of course he has his own justification, or he wouldn't have done that. That doesn't make him a whistleblower.
Assange is a cock with a flair of the dramatic. That doesn't make him guilty of espionage. It makes him a cock.
Dude. That is really, really not my point.
You're asking why the papers are being treated differently than Assange.
I'm pointing out that there are differences between Assange and the papers, like the way he distributed an encrypted file with a thinly veiled threat that if action is taken against him he'll send out the key to open it.
603 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:07:01am |
re: #602 Obdicut
He _has_ had people calling for his assassination...
604 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:08:11am |
605 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:08:57am |
re: #591 Walter L. Newton
Looking to hear some nice, free music this summer? You could do a lot worse than to head underground. In the subway stations of Europe's biggest cities, busking is surprisingly popular, not just among tourists but among locals and city officials as well. Sometimes the music is even good.
That's because the competition has really heated up. Once the province of every amateur accordion player and karaoke crooner, busking in many places now requires a permit. In Paris, where there are 360 licensed subway musicians, only one in three makes the cut. Rotterdam started giving out busking licenses in 2000. And just last month London, where illegal buskers have long waged a guerrilla war with police, acceded to the demands of the public (eight in 10 say they want music in the Tube) and made the practice legal. Over the next four months, auditions will create a pool of some 300 musicians who will rotate through the Underground.[Link: www.newsweek.com...]
My all-time favorite spots I've played so far have either been Kreisler & Wieniawski at the Cathedral of Notre Dame (Paris) or English carols around a Christmas bonfire in Santa Fe (after cutting the fingertips off a pair of old gloves). I try to keep money I make (~$50 in Paris) circulating by passing it off to other more needy (and better?) buskers. Sometimes I sink it into a new instrument or gear.
[Link: www.violinist.com...]
My first day off in Venice I found a young string quartet playing in the closed entrance to San Vidal. Because I had years to spare, it was no big deal to spend the afternoon there. A few years later I tried to get my teenage daughter to be a street player in Verona, just to have that experience, but she wouldn't bite.
606 | BARACK THE VOTE Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:08:57am |
re: #592 JasonA
How does one respond to something like this:
Social Conservative Bryan Fischer: Blame The Gays For WikiLeaks
The right wing has nothing else left with which to oppose overturning DADT, so there's been an outpouring of the old "gay service members can't be trusted" mccarthyite myth. Fischer has company.
Bradley Manning and Wikileaks has provided them an opportunity to drag out this old myth so they're all over it.
607 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:09:16am |
re: #602 Obdicut
Of course he has his own justification, or he wouldn't have done that. That doesn't make him a whistleblower.
In his mind? Suppose that's his defense?
I suppose I should read up on the Pentagon Papers. Weren't they also leaked?
608 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:11:12am |
Why I still won't buy anything from Amazon...
Amazon backlash after website starts selling WikiLeaks cables
Furious Amazon users have accused the online retail giant of double standards after it was found to be selling the WikiLeaks embassy cables – just days it cut off the whistleblowing website from its hosting servers.
The batch of 250,000 US classified documents were available free to users of the WikiLeaks website before it was taken offline following pressures from authorities.
However, the cables have now been repackaged by Amazon user Heinz Duthel and are available as an eBook for the Amazon Kindle – priced at £7.37.
The item’s description states that the cables ”contain US officials’ comments on foreign governments and leaders and speculation about the activities and manoeuvres of the latter, as well as details about American foreign policy operations.”
However, the revelation that Amazon is profiting from WikiLeaks after it pulled the plug on the website’s hosting has prompted an angry backlash in the internet community.
On the comments section of the Amazon page, Miriam Esther said: ”Wikileaks’ work is free. People risk their lives to give us free access to these materials. Amazon management lost all sense of decency by allowing this item for sale.
”I am, like millions of others, stopped doing ANY business with Amazon until its shameful behavior towards Wikileaks is rectified.”
609 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:11:27am |
re: #604 Obdicut
Well, the editor of the Guardian hasn't. Maybe Assange thinks that if he's offed it'll be political and he'd like to leave something behind? Maybe that's his life insurance policy.
That said - how does that have bearing on this? Other than it may make people think twice about killing him?
610 | Four More Tears Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:11:48am |
re: #606 iceweasel
The right wing has nothing else left with which to oppose overturning DADT, so there's been an outpouring of the old "gay service members can't be trusted" mccarthyite myth. Fischer has company.
Bradley Manning and Wikileaks has provided them an opportunity to drag out this old myth so they're all over it.
They really do seem to have a one-track mind at times. That mind is so focused on homosexuality...
611 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:14:14am |
re: #607 harlequinade
In his mind? Suppose that's his defense?
I suppose I should read up on the Pentagon Papers. Weren't they also leaked?
They were leaked, and Ellsberg has published a long description of the moral struggle he waged before acting. The circumstances of the leakers are somewhat different, and Manning was trained to know the consequences. (There are no whistleblower protections, nor were there for Ellsberg.) Assange and the Times are more parallel--in fact Assange probably has a better case, being foreign and operating offshore.
612 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:15:48am |
re: #607 harlequinade
In his mind? Suppose that's his defense?
Then he's completely fucked. I'm really not sure what you're asking here.
If I work for a company where I think some illegal dumping is going on, and I 'whistleblow' that by leaking every document I can get my hand on that, I'm not actually a whistleblower. More like a tuba-squawker.
What did Manning blow the whistle on?
I suppose I should read up on the Pentagon Papers. Weren't they also leaked?
That's part of my point. The Pentagon papers revealed actual lies and deceptions to the American people, actual times where the stated policies, reasons, and histories differed from fact. So far, I've heard of exactly one such thing like this from the stuff Manning released; that the US military was attempting to keep track of civilians killed, contrary to their claim.
Second of all, as I said earlier, the court case against the Times for their publication did not grant the right to journalists to publish classified info at will. It merely blocked the right of the government to restrain such publication. The government was still allowed to prosecute, if they wished, the Times for their publication of the papers. Likewise, Ellsburg wasn't found innocent, the case got thrown out due to irregularities.
614 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:16:53am |
re: #611 Decatur Deb
Unless Assange solicited the information. Ellsberg was actively attempting to leak the stuff.
615 | Walter L. Newton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:18:04am |
re: #605 Decatur Deb
My first day off in Venice I found a young string quartet playing in the closed entrance to San Vidal. Because I had years to spare, it was no big deal to spend the afternoon there. A few years later I tried to get my teenage daughter to be a street player in Verona, just to have that experience, but she wouldn't bite.
It's been a long way from the "blind" accordion players that I use to experience in the NYC subways in the 50's. Both quality of the performer and the cleverness of the performance has reach some amazing levels.
I saw a "unlicensed" busker on the RER C line in Paris one day, possibly a Roma, who came down the carriage, carrying a sort of panel attached to himself. He would stop in the middle of the carriage, unfold this panel, there was a whole portable puppet "theatre" built into this setup.
He would do about a 2 minutes show, along with recorded music and two hand puppets, fold everything up, collect his tips and be off the carriage at the next station (had to keep hopping).
Wonderful, bot the quality of the performance AND the free-spirit attitude of keeping one step ahead of the transit police. A new show every three minutes.
You and Rightwingconspirator has given me an idea... I think I will pay close attention to Paris buskers when I'm there next month, and get more pictures of them... I have a few, but they were never the subject of my attention.
616 | BARACK THE VOTE Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:18:07am |
re: #610 JasonA
They really do seem to have a one-track mind at times. That mind is so focused on homosexuality...
It's because we're at the tipping point now-- DOMA and DADT will be overturned, young evangelicals overall don't fear teh ghey the way their elders did...homophobes are making their last stand.
617 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:19:46am |
re: #614 Obdicut
Unless Assange solicited the information. Ellsberg was actively attempting to leak the stuff.
Yeah--How much the solicitation weighs, and jurisdictional issues, makes this one for the lawyers.
618 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:21:17am |
re: #617 Decatur Deb
And it really, really needs to be remembered that the Pentagon Papers case didn't say that the Times couldn't be prosecuted, at all. Just that it couldn't be restrained.
619 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:22:39am |
re: #612 Obdicut
Well - there's the Yemen thing. That's a lie?
620 | Four More Tears Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:22:46am |
re: #616 iceweasel
It's because we're at the tipping point now-- DOMA and DADT will be overturned, young evangelicals overall don't fear teh ghey the way their elders did...homophobes are making their last stand.
You almost make it sound epic. Like Custer or something...
621 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:24:00am |
re: #618 Obdicut
And it really, really needs to be remembered that the Pentagon Papers case didn't say that the Times couldn't be prosecuted, at all. Just that it couldn't be restrained.
In the end, prosecution was politically impossible. That might also be the case here, if the extent of "normal" diplomatic lying and chicanery create enough outrage.
622 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:25:27am |
re: #619 harlequinade
Well - there's the Yemen thing. That's a lie?
I'm sorry, but what Yemen thing?
623 | Walter L. Newton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:26:30am |
re: #620 JasonA
You almost make it sound epic. Like Custer or something...
We can hope that DOMA and DADT will overturned. This is a "change" I can support.
624 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:27:08am |
re: #616 iceweasel
It's because we're at the tipping point now-- DOMA and DADT will be overturned, young evangelicals overall don't fear teh ghey the way their elders did...homophobes are making their last stand.
Optimist.
625 | BARACK THE VOTE Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:27:15am |
re: #620 JasonA
You almost make it sound epic. Like Custer or something...
Heh. i almost did make a Custer reference, but it was way too filthy to post.
626 | Four More Tears Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:28:00am |
re: #625 iceweasel
Heh. i almost did make a Custer reference, but it was way too filthy to post.
For this audience? :P
627 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:29:45am |
re: #616 iceweasel
It's because we're at the tipping point now-- DOMA and DADT will be overturned, young evangelicals overall don't fear teh ghey the way their elders did...homophobes are making their last stand.
Westboro Baptist is attending Elizabeth Edwards' funeral.
628 | Four More Tears Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:30:52am |
re: #627 Decatur Deb
Westboro Baptist is attending Elizabeth Edwards' funeral.
Get the hell outta here. Don't they have anything better to do?
629 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:31:11am |
re: #627 Decatur Deb
I assume the counterprotestor turnout will be huge.
I hope nobody gives what the assholes want, and assaults them.
630 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:31:34am |
re: #628 JasonA
No. They want people to assault them so they can sue them and feel good about themselves.
631 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:31:42am |
re: #628 JasonA
Get the hell outta here. Don't they have anything better to do?
Washington Post
[Link: www.google.com...]
632 | BARACK THE VOTE Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:32:33am |
re: #627 Decatur Deb
Westboro Baptist is attending Elizabeth Edwards' funeral.
Oh my god! I didn't know.
Horrible, horrible people.
633 | Four More Tears Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:33:42am |
re: #632 iceweasel
Oh my god! I didn't know.
Horrible, horrible people.
God is on their side, or something.
635 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:34:54am |
636 | BARACK THE VOTE Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:34:58am |
re: #631 Decatur Deb
Washington Post
[Link: www.google.com...]
Did you do a page on this? I think you should!
637 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:36:51am |
re: #622 Obdicut
The US is militarily involved in Yemen, both governments are lying about it and saying they're not?
Though - this is leading me away from my concern. It's not the content or the leaking, it's the fall out that bothers me. That said - it's also very interesting times.
638 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:37:57am |
re: #636 iceweasel
Did you do a page on this? I think you should!
I've probably served them too well with the mention.
639 | lostlakehiker Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:39:52am |
re: #54 Dark_Falcon
Why the public is pissed with bankers:
I'm a conservative, but this one is very clearly over the line. The bank officials who caused this go to on should be prosecuted.
That's when a fellow's glad to have that notarized copy of the deed sitting in his safe deposit box. But what happens when, notwithstanding having all the paperwork in perfect order, notwithstanding having a valid deed, the law simply shows up one morning and throws him out on the street?
As long as the State respects its own written laws and records, the homeowner is OK. If that breaks down, one has anarchy under color of law.
640 | Vicious Babushka Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:39:55am |
re: #627 Decatur Deb
Westboro Baptist is attending Elizabeth Edwards' funeral.
You mean they are "crashing" her funeral. Nobody invited them.
I still do not understand how the stuff they do is protected by the First Amendment. They launch unprovoked attacks against random private citizens. That is harrassment, assault, and disturbing the peace.
641 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:41:27am |
re: #640 Alouette
Thought of using quotes around "attending".
642 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:41:34am |
re: #637 harlequinade
The US is militarily involved in Yemen, both governments are lying about it and saying they're not?
Okay. Even if we accept that as valid; that's two things out of what he released that counts as actual whistleblowing.
My point is that you can't say that you're blowing a whistle if you're really opening up a whole ton of stuff that has nothing to do with illegal or improper activities. By that standard, one could release every single classified document that the US had and claim you were whistleblowing.
Though - this is leading me away from my concern. It's not the content or the leaking, it's the fall out that bothers me. That said - it's also very interesting times.
It's always interesting times. I don't think this thing is actually nearly as interesting as other people are finding it. I'm still more concerned about net neutrality legislation than any of this stuff.
643 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:41:54am |
re: #627 Decatur Deb
Westboro Baptist is attending Elizabeth Edwards' funeral.
I hope this raises more interest from Washington politicians on how to stop these scumbags from showing up to funerals.
644 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:42:58am |
re: #639 lostlakehiker
That's when a fellow's glad to have that notarized copy of the deed sitting in his safe deposit box. But what happens when, notwithstanding having all the paperwork in perfect order, notwithstanding having a valid deed, the law simply shows up one morning and throws him out on the street?
As long as the State respects its own written laws and records, the homeowner is OK. If that breaks down, one has anarchy under color of law.
Big lawyer team vs Little Lawyers. The cost of saving your house can cost you your house.
645 | Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:45:13am |
Wikileaks refuses to back or condemn Anonymous attacks
Wikileaks has responded to the distributed denial-of-service attacks targeting companies, such as Mastercard and PayPal, that stopped serving the whistleblower site.
Spokesperson Kristinn Hrafnsson noted in a statement late on Wednesday that the DDoS attacks were similar to those made against Wikileaks itself since it started releasing thousands of leaked US diplomatic cables, but held back from taking an overt stance on the matter.
"We neither condemn nor applaud these attacks," Hrafnsson said. "We believe they are a reflection of public opinion on the actions of the targets."
646 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:45:20am |
re: #643 NJDhockeyfan
There is likely no way to stop them from showing up to funerals that wouldn't also have a restraining effect against other first amendment right situations.
You really can't make a law against people being total assholes and dicks.
647 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:45:23am |
re: #642 Obdicut
I hear you with the net neutrality thing.
But - yes. It could be that Manning was just incredibly stupid and he thought he was doing something noble. I mean - otherwise we're saying that he joined up, got put in that position and then just abused out of maliciousness.
648 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:46:54am |
re: #646 Obdicut
There is likely no way to stop them from showing up to funerals that wouldn't also have a restraining effect against other first amendment right situations.
You really can't make a law against people being total assholes and dicks.
There must be a way to protect the families who are burying their loved ones from these vermin.
649 | lostlakehiker Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:47:23am |
re: #616 iceweasel
It's because we're at the tipping point now-- DOMA and DADT will be overturned, young evangelicals overall don't fear teh ghey the way their elders did...homophobes are making their last stand.
Suppose DOMA and DADT are rescinded. Suppose the SC rules that federal law must include gay marriages as valid for all purposes. Suppose it orders reparations for tax consequences that befell gay couples that couldn't get married because of the old law.
That's not the end of disagreements. There will be cases on whether the Boy Scouts can insist on hetero couples to escort teenage camping trips. There will be cases on whether polygamous unions are likewise valid whether or not states, the federal government, or voters wish it otherwise. There will be cases on whether or not churches can limit their ceremonies to hetero couples without losing their tax exemption.
650 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:47:29am |
re: #647 harlequinade
No. That's a false dichotomy. I think he had a lot of stuff happen-- including being gay in the military-- that made him frustrated, angry, and want to lash out. Maybe he had a crush on one of the hackers. Maybe he just wanted to feel important. Who knows?
Motive isn't really that important in this case.
651 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:48:13am |
re: #647 harlequinade
I hear you with the net neutrality thing.
But - yes. It could be that Manning was just incredibly stupid and he thought he was doing something noble. I mean - otherwise we're saying that he joined up, got put in that position and then just abused out of maliciousness.
We'll probably never know that. I'd like to see his career supervision and security managers answer some questions.
652 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:49:16am |
re: #648 NJDhockeyfan
There must be a way to protect the families who are burying their loved ones from these vermin.
No, sometimes there are things in the world that are imperfect. For example, you can't stop people from publishing hateful antisemitic material that doesn't actually call for violence or other illegal action against Jews, because we allow free speech. Does it suck that people do shit like that-- like the Jack Chick comics? Yes. Does that mean that there 'must' be a way to stop it? No.
Or rather, the way to stop it is cultural, not legal. And the Westborough Baptists are, at the very least, unusual. Whereas Chick comics are all over the fucking place.
653 | harlequinade Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:49:57am |
re: #650 Obdicut
re: #651 Decatur Deb
Right - I must away. Thank you. It has been wonderful and, no doubt, we can do this all again later. Or just point to this page and say "Yes, this is still my position" ;)
Have great days all. I shall lurk and read, but my typing hands are needed in other windows
654 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:51:24am |
655 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:53:33am |
re: #654 Decatur Deb
No, there isn't. The assholes are very careful not to make any threats, or use language that's the least bit like a threat. They're really good at going right up to the edge of the law. And if we move that law just a bit to get them, we're going to infringe on the rights of others in the process. Or we'll be doing a bill of attainder.
656 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:55:01am |
657 | Vicious Babushka Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:55:19am |
re: #646 Obdicut
There is likely no way to stop them from showing up to funerals that wouldn't also have a restraining effect against other first amendment right situations.
You really can't make a law against people being total assholes and dicks.
They are disturbing the peace and harassing random private citizens. If some drunk asshole on a street corner was accosting random people the same way that Phelps freaks do, he would be swiftly removed by the authorities. What does this have to do with the First Amendment?
658 | lawhawk Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:55:56am |
Russian PM's office thinks Assange should get the Nobel Peace Prize.
Are. You. Kidding. Me?
Would they be singing that tune had wikileaks sprung all manner of leak about Russian foreign policy, diplomatic cables, and analysis? I don't think so.
No, this is all about rubbing salt in the wound... and it isn't exactly going to improve US-Russian relations either.
659 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:58:28am |
re: #657 Alouette
They are disturbing the peace and harassing random private citizens. If some drunk asshole on a street corner was accosting random people the same way that Phelps freaks do, he would be swiftly removed by the authorities. What does this have to do with the First Amendment?
But if someone was standing on the street corner holding a sign that said "God hates fags", he wouldn't be removed.
The Phelps are not drunks who are accosting random people.
660 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:01:41am |
re: #658 lawhawk
Russian PM's office thinks Assange should get the Nobel Peace Prize.
Are. You. Kidding. Me?
Would they be singing that tune had wikileaks sprung all manner of leak about Russian foreign policy, diplomatic cables, and analysis? I don't think so.
No, this is all about rubbing salt in the wound... and it isn't exactly going to improve US-Russian relations either.
Can't say I'm surprised. Yesterday someone in Berkeley want to pass a resolution to honor Bradley Manning.
Commission praises WikiLeaks' whistleblower
The controversial WikiLeaks website and its founder are being roundly criticized by government officials and others. But the whistleblower site and the whistleblowers who provide it with information are getting some support, notably from within the city of Berkeley.
Bob Meola wears a t-shirt calling for the release of U.S. Army Private Bradley Manning. Manning is in a military jail, accused of leaking video of U.S. military operations in Iraq, dubbed collateral murder by some, and U.S. documents from the Afghanistan war to the WikiLeaks website.
He is on Berkeley's Peace and Justice Commission. He authored a resolution honoring manning and recognizing Manning as an American hero.
661 | Kragar Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:02:10am |
re: #658 lawhawk
Russian PM's office thinks Assange should get the Nobel Peace Prize.
Are. You. Kidding. Me?
Would they be singing that tune had wikileaks sprung all manner of leak about Russian foreign policy, diplomatic cables, and analysis? I don't think so.
No, this is all about rubbing salt in the wound... and it isn't exactly going to improve US-Russian relations either.
If Russian secrets were getting leaked, Wikileaks staff would be turning up in the trunks of abandoned cars with their throats slashed.
662 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:03:08am |
re: #659 Obdicut
But if someone was standing on the street corner holding a sign that said "God hates fags", he wouldn't be removed.
The Phelps are not drunks who are accosting random people.
Eventually they will enrich their survivors by pushing some distraught, mentally marginal, family member over the edge. Then there will be tragedy upon tragedy upon tragedy.
663 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:03:35am |
re: #661 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
If Russian secrets were getting leaked, Wikileaks staff would be turning up in the trunks of abandoned cars with their throats slashed.
Russian blogger creates Wikileaks-style anticorruption site
I wouldn't take RIA Novosti too seriously, though. It's basically a propaganda outlet for the Russian state.
664 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:04:31am |
re: #662 Decatur Deb
Yep. One gets the feeling that the Phelps clan is absolutely full of self-loathing, as well. They probably want people to attack them for more than simply the financial reasons.
665 | Vicious Babushka Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:06:09am |
re: #664 Obdicut
Yep. One gets the feeling that the Phelps clan is absolutely full of self-loathing, as well. They probably want people to attack them for more than simply the financial reasons.
There is certainly some abnormal pathology at play here. They are narcissistic attention freaks.
666 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:06:25am |
re: #557 Obdicut
In other words, no, you can't actually support your argument. It's a rather poor one, especially since the standard term for what police do when using a warrant is to 'execute' it.
"Law enforcement" and "Executive branch of government".
Read up on the differences sometime. Fascinating stuff, especially when you get into parts of history where the distinction has been blurred (I live in such a country with such a past).
PS: I am not responsible for your general, basic education which I kinda-sorta presume anyone I talk to has acquired already and does not require me to supply them with.
667 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:08:52am |
re: #547 Obdicut
I prefer my version, actually, since what I'm emphasizing is what effect that presumption has. Do you understand why I stressed the 'treat' part?
No, because it is redundant, for all practical legal purposes.
668 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:09:04am |
re: #666 000G
"Law enforcement" and "Executive branch of government".
Do you have any response to the fact that the police execute warrants? Or do you only like the semantics when they're in your favor?
Fascinating stuff, especially when you get into parts of history where the distinction has been blurred (I live in such a country with such a past).
You mean like in the US, where Federal Marshals operate under the executive branch, as does the FBI?
PS: I am not responsible for your general, basic education which I kinda-sorta presume anyone I talk to has acquired already and does not require me to supply them with.
No, you're not. You are required, however, to back up your assertions if you want to be taken seriously. So far, you've done a very, very poor job of that.
669 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:09:22am |
re: #667 000G
No, because it is redundant, for all practical legal purposes.
Is English your first language?
670 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:09:50am |
re: #664 Obdicut
Yep. One gets the feeling that the Phelps clan is absolutely full of self-loathing, as well. They probably want people to attack them for more than simply the financial reasons.
re: #665 Alouette
There is certainly some abnormal pathology at play here. They are narcissistic attention freaks.
Hmmm.. Are they a danger to themselves and others? "Bring me an activist judge, some Veterans' Administration shrinks, and commitment papers."
671 | Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:11:26am |
re: #658 lawhawk
Russian PM's office thinks Assange should get the Nobel Peace Prize.
Are. You. Kidding. Me?
Would they be singing that tune had wikileaks sprung all manner of leak about Russian foreign policy, diplomatic cables, and analysis? I don't think so.
No, this is all about rubbing salt in the wound... and it isn't exactly going to improve US-Russian relations either.
The Russians love this stuff because it creates chaos for the West. Russia Today loves Ron Paul and Alex Jones and does their best to promote their ideas.
672 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:11:42am |
re: #670 Decatur Deb
One could make the case that they're attempting to commit suicide in an extremely drawn-out fashion. However, that ruling would affect any group that was protesting something when there was a great cause of danger to themselves-- like, for example, black protesters marching for civil rights.
That argument was used to attempt to suppress the civil rights marchers-- that their presence caused a danger to themselves and others. That's part of why I'm urging such caution here.
673 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:12:05am |
re: #548 sattv4u2
You (seemed) to have been saying Paypal shouldn't have been able to do anything (deny service) until the courts decided if assange had done something criminally
No, I did not say that they should not have been able to. I am saying they are ill-advised to just act as the executive branch of government wishes them to. I am basically arguing the same as #550
675 | Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:14:19am |
re: #672 Obdicut
Yeah, just daydreaming. Eventually some good ol boy whose kid brother was killed is going to run them through a cotton baler. Sad for him.
676 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:14:33am |
re: #663 000G
Russian blogger creates Wikileaks-style anticorruption site
I wouldn't take RIA Novosti too seriously, though. It's basically a propaganda outlet for the Russian state.
Navalny did create such a site. [Link: rospil.info...] What is there to doubt? He created it after he (locally) famously leaked the confidential report from Transneft about (alleged) 4 billion dollars stolen during the first phase of Eastern Siberia - Pacific Ocean oil pipeline construction.
677 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:15:09am |
re: #668 Obdicut
Do you have any response to the fact that the police execute warrants? Or do you only like the semantics when they're in your favor?
The word in the term execution of warrants has nothing to do with the word executive in the term Executive branch of government. Mere lexical similarity.
You mean like in the US, where Federal Marshals operate under the executive branch, as does the FBI?
"Operate under", not: "are on the same level as". Another important difference (and another one that was blurred by some administrations of my country in the past).
No, you're not. You are required, however, to back up your assertions if you want to be taken seriously. So far, you've done a very, very poor job of that.
I think it is rather you who has done a very poor job of acquiring a basic education of basic civic terms.
678 | Gus Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:15:43am |
re: #660 NJDhockeyfan
Can't say I'm surprised. Yesterday someone in Berkeley want to pass a resolution to honor Bradley Manning.
Here's ol' Bob Meola on the left.
Image: 2077710730_6c82ec47c1_b.jpg
I think you know who's on the right.
679 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:16:04am |
re: #676 Sergey Romanov
Navalny did create such a site. [Link: rospil.info...] What is there to doubt? He created it after he (locally) famously leaked the confidential report from Transneft about (alleged) 4 billion dollars stolen during the first phase of Eastern Siberia - Pacific Ocean oil pipeline construction.
I am not doubting the facts. I am just warning about RIA Novosti's slant and its origins. They very often are hyperbolic.
680 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:17:56am |
re: #669 Obdicut
Is English your first language?
Is it yours? Should I dial 1 for English?
What kind of argument is this?
681 | lawhawk Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:18:38am |
OT and in a sign of the Christmas season:
Christmas at Ground Zero. Electricians have lit up the floors of the rising Freedom Tower (1WTC) in festive colors to mark the season.
Crane operators on the tower have also ringed their control cab with lights as well (though that isn't easily made out on the photos).
682 | Walter L. Newton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:20:23am |
re: #678 Gus 802
Here's ol' Bob Meola on the left.
Image: 2077710730_6c82ec47c1_b.jpg
I think you know who's on the right.
No... who?
683 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:20:48am |
re: #669 Obdicut
I think 000G is a German.
684 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:21:49am |
re: #677 000G
The word in the term execution of warrants has nothing to do with the word executive in the term Executive branch of government. Mere lexical similarity.
Oo-kay. You see, the main problem I'm having here is that even on a local level, say, New York, the police really are part of the executive branch. The Commissioner of the police is appointed by the mayor. There's oversight, of course, but it is part of the Executive branch.
Let me put it this way: If the police aren't part of the executive branch, what branch of government do you think they're part of?
"Operate under", not: "are on the same level as". Another important difference (and another one that was blurred by some administrations of my country in the past).
No, it's really not an important distinction. They are part of the executive branch. There is no 'level' that the executive branch operates at. Why do you think there is this concept of 'levels'?
I think it is rather you who has done a very poor job of acquiring a basic education of basic civic terms.
So you've said. Repeatedly. Instead of continuing to do so, why not actually attempt to demonstrate this about me?
685 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:22:52am |
re: #680 000G
Is it yours? Should I dial 1 for English?
What kind of argument is this?
Well, I asked you if you understood why I emphasized something, and you responded saying that the emphasis didn't make a difference from a legal perspective. Since I wasn't talking from a legal perspective, I'm trying to pin down exactly where you're having difficult understanding me, and I wondered if a language barrier was part of it.
688 | Walter L. Newton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:27:17am |
690 | Walter L. Newton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:29:29am |
re: #689 Gus 802
Commie!
/
I use Prairie Fire as a guide on how to deal with customers at the supermarket.
691 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:30:32am |
692 | Gus Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:30:48am |
re: #690 Walter L. Newton
I use Prairie Fire as a guide on how to deal with customers at the supermarket.
Damn. It must take a long time for them to get out of the store what with the revolutionary lecturing and all.
/
693 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:31:00am |
OK, are there any geeks here who can translate this?
30,000-node botnet used in MasterCard, PayPal attacks
PayPal's website was hit late Wednesday by two botnets as online activists continued their Web attacks on companies that have severed their relationships with WikiLeaks.
The activists have recruited volunteers, who have banded their computers into a distributed denial of service (DDoS) botnet, but they are also using hacked machines to carry out these attacks, said Sean-Paul Correll of threat researcher Panda Security. "Today we observed over 3,000 computers in the voluntary botnet, but we also have knowledge of a 30k node botnet," he said.
This botnet infects computers via peer to peer filesharing systems, but it can spread via Microsoft Messenger and USB sticks as well, he said. Panda is trying to get a sample of the botnet code to analyze.
PayPal was hit late Wednesday afternoon, Pacific time, and the Paypal.com address was unresponsive into early Thursday morning. "There have been attempted DDoS attacks on paypal.com this week," said company spokesman Anuj Nayar. "The attacks slowed the website itself down for a short while, but did not significantly impact payments."
PayPal's blog had been hit earlier in the week, but the main Paypal.com website was down for at least several hours Wednesday, and [Link: www.paypal.com...] was affected too, although less seriously. Unlike Visa and MasterCard, the website is critical to PayPal's business. Customers need the website to send money to other PayPal users.
694 | Kragar Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:31:53am |
re: #693 NJDhockeyfan
OK, are there any geeks here who can translate this?
What part don't you understand?
695 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:32:44am |
re: #693 NJDhockeyfan
Botnet = computers that have been infected with a virus or otherwise hijacked by a hacker to use in attacks.
Then the hacker can use tools in order to get those computers to do things like all ping the same website at the same time, repeatedly.
696 | Gus Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:33:24am |
WikiLeaks’ Cash Pledge Hasn’t Reached Bradley Manning’s Support Fund
WikiLeaks has failed to deliver on a months-old pledge to contribute financially to the defense of Bradley Manning, according to a group raising money for the imprisoned Army private suspected of providing WikiLeaks its most important U.S. releases.
A spokesman for the Bradley Manning Support Network said Wednesday that the group had still not received money that WikiLeaks pledged in July and was supposed to release to the group back in September.
“As of yesterday afternoon, the money had not arrived,” spokesman Jeff Paterson told Threat Level on Wednesday.
WikiLeaks spokesman Kristinn Hrafnsson said last week at a panel discussion in London that WikiLeaks had contributed “a substantial amount of money” to Manning’s defense. But upon learning Tuesday that the money had actually not been paid yet, Hrafnsson told The Washington Post that there was a misunderstanding and that $20,000 would be distributed to Manning’s defense immediately by the nonprofit Wau Holland Foundation, which manages the majority of WikiLeaks donations.
“The contribution was informally agreed upon quite some time ago, and that was relayed to the defense fund,” WikiLeaks spokesman Hrafnsson told the Post. “I was under the impression it had been formally authorized as is required by the trustees [of the] Wau Holland Fund. This situation has now been rectified, and the payment is being processed now.”
The figure, however, falls short of the $50,000 that the Bradley Manning Support Network was expecting from WikiLeaks. Manning’s defense attorney, David E. Coombs, has agreed to defend the soldier for a flat fee of $100,000, and WikiLeaks was expected to pay half of this, Paterson said.
Continues.
Gee. What a surprise. They must have funneled all the money to Assange's wardrobe and sun glasses fund.
697 | lawhawk Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:33:35am |
obdicut:
If you're looking for a great cup of coffee in the City, here are a few suggestions. All different styles and roasting options are included - and these are local favorites.
698 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:33:47am |
re: #694 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
What part don't you understand?
Botnet, nodes, etc...I built my computer but all this mumbo jumbo is a little over my head.
699 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:35:02am |
re: #695 Obdicut
Botnet = computers that have been infected with a virus or otherwise hijacked by a hacker to use in attacks.
Then the hacker can use tools in order to get those computers to do things like all ping the same website at the same time, repeatedly.
Thanks!
701 | lawhawk Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:36:01am |
re: #698 NJDhockeyfan
Basically, it's a hacker using software (virus, malware, etc.) to take over processing time on other computers to then pool resources to attack another computer or network. DDoS is where a server/network is overwhelmed by process requests, shutting it down to access until the attack is thwarted.
702 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:36:39am |
re: #697 lawhawk
Thanks! So far, the best cup I've had has been at a cofee truck called The Mudtruck.
Do you know any good places for Jamaican jerked chicken? My wife has never had it (except in the terrible TGI Fridays style) and I'd like to introduce her to it.
703 | Walter L. Newton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:37:21am |
re: #698 NJDhockeyfan
Botnet, nodes, etc...I built my computer but all this mumbo jumbo is a little over my head.
It's like all the kids in a school (a net of bots) asking to go to the bathroom at the same time, and the toilets overflow.
704 | Kragar Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:37:27am |
re: #698 NJDhockeyfan
Botnet, nodes, etc...I built my computer but all this mumbo jumbo is a little over my head.
Basically, the hacker infects various computers, then uses those computers to launch an attack. This allows a hacker to attack from a larger area and with many more machines than he would be able to physically access.
The initial virus is normally downloaded via porn sites, illegal video and music download, torrents and other downloadable media.
705 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:39:18am |
re: #704 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And by having that virus then infect other computers on the same network. So even if you never do anything risky, simply being on network with careless users and bad security policies can infect your computer-- assuming you're running Windows.
Isn't that right, Kevin?
/railing at ex-coworker.
706 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:40:43am |
707 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:41:06am |
re: #671 Killgore Trout
The Russians love this stuff because it creates chaos for the West. Russia Today loves Ron Paul and Alex Jones and does their best to promote their ideas.
They are a little ticked off by recent documents posted by Wikileaks.
Russia doubts NATO sincerity over WikiLeaks
Russia today expressed doubt over the sincerity and integrity of NATO after the WikiLeaks whistleblower website released secret US diplomatic cables exposing the western military bloc''s plans to defend Baltic States from the ''Russian aggression''."The question arises as to when NATO was being sincere. When they talk to us on developing a partnership or when they resolve contradictory issues among themselves behind closed doors?" Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov was quoted as saying by RIA Novosti.
The latest batch of US diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks reveal that NATO drew up plans in January to defend the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania against any possible attack by Russia.
"We have posed these questions and we expect to get answers. I presume we have the right," Lavrov added.
708 | Killgore Trout Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:45:57am |
re: #707 NJDhockeyfan
I'm not so sure they're actually outrage. My guess is they're enjoying the chaos and just want to fan the flames.
709 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:47:10am |
re: #708 Killgore Trout
I'm not so sure they're actually outrage. My guess is they're enjoying the chaos and just want to fan the flames.
Of course they do. I'm sure they've spun a few lies to our officials over the years.
710 | Gus Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:48:33am |
re: #707 NJDhockeyfan
They are a little ticked off by recent documents posted by Wikileaks.
Yet another example of Wikileaks compromising not only national security but global security:
The latest batch of US diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks reveal that NATO drew up plans in January to defend the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania against any possible attack by Russia.
If they got their hands on those particular plans they would no doubt release those to the public.
711 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:49:32am |
Hackers say Amazon targeted this afternoon in WikiLeaks row
Pro-WikiLeaks hackers have said that they are launching launch a cyber-attack on Amazon.com this afternoon because of the etailer’s refusal to host the whistleblower website on its servers.
The group of hackers, called Anonymous, has already attacked payments organisations MasterCard and Visa after they refused to process donations to WikiLeaks.
Anonymous announced on Twitter that it would target Amazon starting at 4 o’clock. There is no sign so far of any disruption on Amazon’s site.
I guess selling the stolen documents Wikileaks has posted isn't enough to prevent an attack by their supporters.
712 | lawhawk Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:51:28am |
re: #702 Obdicut
I'm not sure, but if you want authentic jerk chicken, you'd probably have to find someplace in Crown Heights or Flatbush Brooklyn where there's a huge Jamaican/West Indian community. Lemme see if TONY has some guide on that...
713 | Gus Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:52:01am |
Gov. Christie announces plan to protect Barnegat Bay, close Oyster Creek
LACEY — New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie today unveiled a plan to protect Barnegat Bay from pollution and environmental degradation.
The centerpiece of the plan is the early closure of the Oyster Creek nuclear power plant. The plant sucks 1.4 billions of gallons of water each day from the bay and then discharges warmer water back.
The plan also calls for the state to buy land near the bay to prevent harmful runoff from entering the waterway. It endorses a plan to require slow-release nitrogen to be part of fertilizer sold in New Jersey and limits how and where it can be applied.
Nitrogen is the main cause of algae blooms, which kill marine life. It also nurtures colonies of jellyfish.
The nation's oldest nuclear plant is set to close on Dec. 31, 2019.
714 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:55:14am |
Facebook deletes pro-WikiLeaks hackers’ account
Facebook and Twitter deleted the accounts of cyber activists who targeted Visa and other Internet payment sites that sought to block the WikiLeaks website after its release of U.S. diplomatic cables.
Facebook confirmed it had removed the activists’ Operation Payback site on Thursday because it was promoting a distributed denial of service attack — an illegal form of freezing websites. Twitter declined to comment.
The swoop against Operation Payback’s self-described campaigners for Internet freedom followed their online attacks on credit card giants like Visa and Mastercard.
The campaign reappeared on Twitter later in the European afternoon using another account. Experts said the outages were unlikely to have much effect on the pro-WikiLeaks cyber campaign as activists were using separate chatrooms to organise.
715 | lawhawk Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:56:58am |
re: #713 Gus 802
The plant will close in 2019, which is 10 years earlier than the license called for. Exelon, which operates the plant, wont have to build a new cooling tower.
Big question is where NJ will get the power to make up the deficit left by the closure. There's a proposal to build a new reactor at Salem, but that's still years off.
Currently, NJ gets about half its electric needs from nuclear plants in state.
716 | Gus Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:57:29am |
House Dems Vote No Confidence In Obama Tax Plan
House Democrats voted in a private meeting this morning to reject the tax cut plan President Obama negotiated with the GOP.
By voice vote, Democrats agreed to a non-binding resolution, introduced by Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR), not to bring up the Obama plan in its current form.
Continues.
Lame. Good luck with that DNC.
717 | Gus Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:59:14am |
re: #716 Gus 802
House Dems Vote No Confidence In Obama Tax Plan
Lame. Good luck with that DNC.
Should add this:
The vote itself does not scuttle the deal, which most Dems predict will pass with overwhelming support from House Republicans, and a small but significant amount of support from Dems.
718 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Dec 9, 2010 9:00:42am |
Hackers paralyze Hezbollah-linked web site for publishing WikiLeaks cables
The web site of a newspaper affiliated Lebanon's militant Hezbollah group has been shut down following a hacker attack, apparently over its publishing of leaked U.S. diplomatic cables, an editor with the daily said Thursday.
Omar Nashabe said he doesn't want to speculate who is behind what he called the most serious attack on the Al-Akhbar newspaper since it was established in 2006.
WikiLeaks gave the the privately owned Al-Akhbar an advance copy of secret U.S. diplomatic documents, and the paper has been publishing the cables since last week.
719 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 9:01:59am |
re: #716 Gus 802
They're awfully irate about something they haven't done anything about before now.
720 | Daniel Ballard Thu, Dec 9, 2010 9:05:39am |
re: #596 Obdicut
In SF, noise ordinances can't be used against non-amped stuff before 10:00 PM. So as long as you're acoustic, you're good until then.
Much better. LA needs to lighten up.
721 | Vicious Babushka Thu, Dec 9, 2010 9:05:58am |
re: #702 Obdicut
Thanks! So far, the best cup I've had has been at a cofee truck called The Mudtruck.
Do you know any good places for Jamaican jerked chicken? My wife has never had it (except in the terrible TGI Fridays style) and I'd like to introduce her to it.
722 | lawhawk Thu, Dec 9, 2010 9:07:00am |
re: #721 Alouette
Awesome.... I'll have to try that ( and soften the heat for the mrs., who isn't as much a fan of the heat as I am).
723 | Obdicut Thu, Dec 9, 2010 9:08:49am |
re: #721 Alouette
That's cool! Some of my ancestors were in Jamaica for awhile, as slaves. I'll totally hit up that festival when it happens next year.
724 | Stanghazi Thu, Dec 9, 2010 9:13:14am |
re: #702 Obdicut
Thanks! So far, the best cup I've had has been at a cofee truck called The Mudtruck.
Do you know any good places for Jamaican jerked chicken? My wife has never had it (except in the terrible TGI Fridays style) and I'd like to introduce her to it.
Hi Obdi,
Order this online, use it. It is pure, real Jamaican Jerk. It's HOT and sooo good.
725 | JeffFX Thu, Dec 9, 2010 9:29:10am |
re: #695 Obdicut
Botnet = computers that have been infected with a virus or otherwise hijacked by a hacker to use in attacks.
Then the hacker can use tools in order to get those computers to do things like all ping the same website at the same time, repeatedly.
Except not hijacked in this case. It's a voluntary botnet, and people have to be morons to run it on their PC. [Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]