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Poll: Americans Overwhelmingly Oppose Cutting Medicare and Medicaid

Most support the budget deal but reject the Republican Party’s agenda
Politics • Views: 25,638

The new Washington Post-ABC News national poll completely confirms the McClatchy-Marist poll we featured yesterday: Americans are overwhelmingly opposed to cutting Medicare and Medicaid, and overwhelmingly in favor of raising tax rates on the wealthiest.

The new poll’s numbers: 78% oppose cutting Medicare, and 72% favor raising taxes on incomes over $250,000.

Steve Benen points out that when Republicans were arguing against reforming health care, one of their prime talking points was that unpopular policies should be rejected:

It was literally just last year when Republicans decided that opinion polls are the single most important factor policymakers should consider, especially when dealing with controversial changes to the status quo. For politicians to simply ignore overwhelming survey data was offensive and arrogant, undermining core American ideals like “consent of the governed.” By some accounts, Republicans seriously believed that Democrats and President Obama “perpetrated a breathtaking assault on the body politic by passing a law that did not have widespread public support.”

I don’t expect Republicans to simply scrap their unpopular budget agenda, but if their rhetoric from 13 months ago was sincere, shouldn’t they feel compelled to do just that?

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249 comments

1 iossarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:20:42am

Re: policies that are unpopular with "ordinary folks":

IOKIYAAR

2 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:23:54am

I'm surprised that the interviewer in the previous video didn't ask those informed seniors if they were on Medicare or SS, or Medicaid.

3 BishopX  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:24:03am

Time to start talking about republicans shoving this bill down our throats.

4 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:24:14am

People who get stuff for free will never vote against it. See medicare Part D.

5 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:24:31am

well these polls don't reflect the beliefs of REAL 'MERKINS so shut up, that's why.

//

6 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:25:42am

re: #2 Naso Tang

I'm surprised that the interviewer in the previous video didn't ask those informed seniors if they were on Medicare or SS, or Medicaid.

And the fact it didn't bother with people 55 and older.

7 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:26:22am

It's all going to come down to how it's argued. People will say they want this and that but then vote for candidates who oppose it because of other reasons.

8 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:26:54am

You lie! This poll was bankrolled by the liberal lamestream media at WashPo and ABC. No doubt George Soros is also behind this poll!

9 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:27:26am

re: #8 Gus 802

You lie! This poll was bankrolled by the liberal lamestream media at WashPo and ABC. No doubt George Soros is also behind this poll!

And ACORN, you can't forget ACORN.

10 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:28:06am

I just hope I get taxed for not having insurance!!!

11 darthstar  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:28:16am
12 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:28:34am

re: #6 Cannadian Club Akbar

And the fact it didn't bother with people 55 and older.

They know they are protected, so they dont give a shit about the rest of us.

13 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:28:39am

re: #6 Cannadian Club Akbar

And the fact it didn't bother with people 55 and older.

That's getting into inconvenient details. I am simply curious how the ones who were totally against these things supported themselves since they appeared to be of retirement age, and obviously not smart enough to have a big nest egg.

14 darthstar  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:28:52am

re: #11 darthstar

winning

Those breasts are so pretty I hardly notice the Donald next to them.

15 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:29:03am

re: #10 Cannadian Club Akbar

I just hope I get taxed for not having insurance!!!

I hope you never get sick.

16 prairiefire  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:30:04am

This is amazing, not. How can a political party be so obtuse?

17 Summer Seale  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:30:29am

re: #2 Naso Tang

I'm surprised that the interviewer in the previous video didn't ask those informed seniors if they were on Medicare or SS, or Medicaid.

I just got done watching that and..........

........and..........

..........and...........

........damnit, I'm at a complete fracking loss for words......

18 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:30:36am

re: #14 darthstar

Those breasts are so pretty I hardly notice the Donald next to who paid for them.


/

19 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:31:18am

re: #15 Naso Tang

I hope you never get sick.

See HSA. I had insurance for years and never needed it.

20 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:32:01am

Related.

Rep. Bachmann Announces Support For Raising Taxes ... On The Poor and Middle-Class [VIDEO]

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN: If we taxed 100 percent of what everyone made who make $250,000 or more -- everything they made -- that would get us about six months worth of revenue.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: But every bit helps, doesn't it?

REP. BACHMANN: Well, but it wouldn't be enough. I think that's what's shocking.

We could take 100 percent of the profits of every Fortune 500 company and that would give us 40 days worth of revenue. We could also take 100 percent of everything that the billionaires in this country own, and that wouldn't be enough to solve the problem.

So it's really a matter of having everyone involved. Part of the problem, George, is that 47 percent of all Americans pay virtually no federal income tax, so we need to broaden the base.

This poll is mentioned.

Again, Michele Bachmann said, "Part of the problem, George, is that 47 percent of all Americans pay virtually no federal income tax, so we need to broaden the base."

21 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:33:23am

re: #20 Gus 802

Related.

Rep. Bachmann Announces Support For Raising Taxes ... On The Poor and Middle-Class [VIDEO]

This poll is mentioned.

Again, Michele Bachmann said, "Part of the problem, George, is that 47 percent of all Americans pay virtually no federal income tax, so we need to broaden the base."

Jeebus, I hate that bullshit talking point.

22 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:33:25am

re: #20 Gus 802

Related.

Rep. Bachmann Announces Support For Raising Taxes ... On The Poor and Middle-Class [VIDEO]

This poll is mentioned.

Again, Michele Bachmann said, "Part of the problem, George, is that 47 percent of all Americans pay virtually no federal income tax, so we need to broaden the base."


And here I thought their whole big schting was they opposed taxes, oh opposed taxes on their wealthy donors.

23 darthstar  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:34:01am

re: #18 blueraven

He may have paid for them, but we get to appreciate them all the same.

24 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:34:17am

re: #19 Cannadian Club Akbar

See HSA. I had insurance for years and never needed it.

That's the idea of insurance. Some do some don't (as much). If everyone needed it equally it would not be insurance.

25 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:34:59am

Class warfare is a joke.

26 Summer Seale  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:35:18am

re: #20 Gus 802

Related.

Rep. Bachmann Announces Support For Raising Taxes ... On The Poor and Middle-Class [VIDEO]

This poll is mentioned.

Again, Michele Bachmann said, "Part of the problem, George, is that 47 percent of all Americans pay virtually no federal income tax, so we need to broaden the base."

The New Republican Motto: "Republicans - for people who make too much money and like to complain about those who make none at all."

27 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:35:56am

re: #26 Summer

The New Republican Motto: "Republicans - for people who make too much money and like to complain about those who make none at all."

Hey. People who don't make enough money only do so because they made bad choices.

/

28 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:36:02am

re: #24 Naso Tang

That's the idea of insurance. Some do some don't (as much). If everyone needed it equally it would not be insurance.

So tell me why I should have to have insurance or get fined?

29 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:36:32am

re: #25 Cannadian Club Akbar

Class warfare is a joke.

You mean like in Egypt, Yemen, etc.?

30 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:37:08am

re: #25 Cannadian Club Akbar

Class warfare is a joke.

Class warfare is relative. And guess who typically wins out in the class war? Here's a hint. It's not the poor people or the middle class.

31 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:37:23am

And the GOP will suddenly pretend they didn't mean it like that in: 5...4....3...2....1...

The Dems will utterly drop the ball and fail to drive the point home in: 10...9...8...7...6...


Moron America will buy it yet again and decide that the GOP isn't soooo far right in:
15...14...13...12...11...

The cycle will repeat as if nothing happened in:
20...19...18....17....16....

32 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:37:39am

re: #25 Cannadian Club Akbar

Class warfare is a joke.

Yeah and the joke is on us as we are losing.

33 Summer Seale  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:37:41am

re: #27 Gus 802

Hey. People who don't make enough money only do so because they made bad choices.

/

You mean....like...which country club to join, right? =)

34 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:37:51am

re: #29 Naso Tang

You mean like in Egypt, Yemen, etc.?

no, like here. Make everyone pay for other peoples stuff. Waaa!!

35 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:38:20am

re: #33 Summer

You mean...like...which country club to join, right? =)

Yep.

"Let's see. Harvard, Yale or Stanford?"

36 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:38:28am

re: #25 Cannadian Club Akbar

Class warfare is a joke.

I disagree.

37 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:38:49am

re: #36 wrenchwench

I disagree.

OK.

38 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:41:00am

re: #37 Cannadian Club Akbar

OK.

Let's try that again.

YOU'RE WRONG.

maybe that'll get a bigger response

39 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:42:33am

re: #34 Cannadian Club Akbar

no, like here. Make everyone pay for other peoples stuff. Waaa!!

Yes, lets make future seniors pay for tax cuts for the wealthy. I agree, it is a disgusting joke.

40 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:42:58am

re: #38 wrenchwench

Let's try that again.

YOU'RE WRONG.

maybe that'll get a bigger response

OK.
did you see what the president paid in taxes?
did you see what he paid in contributions?

41 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:43:19am

re: #20 Gus 802

Related.

Rep. Bachmann Announces Support For Raising Taxes ... On The Poor and Middle-Class [VIDEO]

This poll is mentioned.

Again, Michele Bachmann said, "Part of the problem, George, is that 47 percent of all Americans pay virtually no federal income tax, so we need to broaden the base."

I'm getting tired of that strawman of "Well, if we taxed the rich at 100%, it wouldn't be enough!," because nobody's proposing that the rich pay that much. Hell, the highest I've seen suggest so far is going back to the Clinton-era taxes, which is 39.6% for the highest bracket. The highest the top bracket has ever gone was 91%, and it hasn't been that high since the days of JFK.

As for that "The poor pay not taxes!" bullshit, that's after they take advantage of all the various deductions and tax credits that the current mess of a tax code provides them. And guess what, the rich do the exact same fraking thing, so give me a fraking break.

42 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:44:51am

re: #28 Cannadian Club Akbar

So tell me why I should have to have insurance or get fined?

The odds are greatly in favor of you needing health care at some point, unless you die accidentally suddenly, or choose to kill yourself at the first sign of an illness.

If you can afford to self insure (IE pay for any worst case costs that may happen), then you can easily afford the comparatively minor cost of paying into the insurance pool.

If you prefer to save the insurance money for personal use, you could have "do not treat" bracelet on your wrist, like "do not resuscitate", but as a society we are not yet advanced enough to honor that.

So, you are left with paying into the pool. In truth, it is a tax, just like SS, Unemployment and many other forms.

You don't like taxes. Too bad.

43 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:44:52am

re: #34 Cannadian Club Akbar

no, like here. Make everyone pay for other peoples stuff. Waaa!!

Oh. I missed this.

Strawman.

44 Big Steve  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:45:17am

New SAT question

The Republican faithful are either: (Select one of the following)

A: So stupid they will vote for Palin/Trump/Bachmann/Jindal
B: So stupid they all believe in birther nonsense
C: Are tea party extremists
D: So smart that they won't vote against their own self interests
E: All of the above

45 engineer cat  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:45:22am

but if their rhetoric from 13 months ago was sincere, shouldn’t they feel compelled to do just that?

do you expect the gop to start being logically consistent?

46 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:45:26am

re: #41 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I'm getting tired of that strawman of "Well, if we taxed the rich at 100%, it wouldn't be enough!," because nobody's proposing that the rich pay that much. Hell, the highest I've seen suggest so far is going back to the Clinton-era taxes, which is 39.6% for the highest bracket. The highest the top bracket has ever gone was 91%, and it hasn't been that high since the days of JFK.

As for that "The poor pay not taxes!" bullshit, that's after they take advantage of all the various deductions and tax credits that the current mess of a tax code provides them. And guess what, the rich do the exact same fraking thing, so give me a fraking break.

The poor and middle classes pay little taxes is nothing but a bullshit argument. I tell you what bugs me most about people like Bachmann is they get elected by demonizing taxes but many of them have zero problem with a really high sales tax which would totally screw the middle and lower classes. I think if any tax should be lowered, it ought to be the sales.

47 Interesting Times  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:47:32am

Anti-socialist Bachmann got $250K in federal farm subsidies

Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.) — so fond of accusing the Obama administration of foisting socialism on an unwilling America — has apparently been the recipient of about a quarter of million bucks in government handouts.

So why don't you want to pay for her stuff, you un-American poor person!!1!

48 engineer cat  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:47:55am

i guess these polls much be very confrontational and divisive

and shrill

49 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:48:35am

LOL@Wingnuts....

Paul Ryan Gets Booed By Constituents For Opposing Tax Hikes On Rich (VIDEO)

The audience does not look like union plants. Lot's of grey hair and baseball caps.

50 Interesting Times  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:49:11am

re: #48 engineer dog

i guess these polls much be very confrontational and divisive

and shrill

Crazy and offensive!!1!

51 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:49:22am

re: #46 HappyWarrior

The poor and middle classes pay little taxes is nothing but a bullshit argument. I tell you what bugs me most about people like Bachmann is they get elected by demonizing taxes but many of them have zero problem with a really high sales tax which would totally screw the middle and lower classes. I think if any tax should be lowered, it ought to be the sales.

Yeah, the Ryan Plan's solution to doing away with all the corporate taxes? An 8.5% "Business Material Consumption" tax, which is little more than a badly disguised VAT. You know, the kind of tax that the GOP had screaming fits last year over the suggestion that one might be imposed by Comrade Obama?

52 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:50:04am

re: #49 Killgore Trout

They've whipped up populism about the elites, and I think, after the bailouts, there's a lot of identification of the bankers and other super-rich as those elites.

53 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:50:11am

re: #41 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I'm getting tired of that strawman of "Well, if we taxed the rich at 100%, it wouldn't be enough!," because nobody's proposing that the rich pay that much. Hell, the highest I've seen suggest so far is going back to the Clinton-era taxes, which is 39.6% for the highest bracket. The highest the top bracket has ever gone was 91%, and it hasn't been that high since the days of JFK.

As for that "The poor pay not taxes!" bullshit, that's after they take advantage of all the various deductions and tax credits that the current mess of a tax code provides them. And guess what, the rich do the exact same fraking thing, so give me a fraking break.

There was an analysis of this in the news somewhere. In truth the highest income earners pay a large percentage of Federal Income tax, but they pay a disproportionately small percentage of other related taxes like FICA, so their actual total contribution is around 28%, not 40+.

54 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:51:11am

Who do you think keeps the waterways open for the yachts that the rich play one? The Army Corps of Engineers and the Coast Guard. Who do you think keeps the airways safe and operating for the private jets of the wealthy? The NTSB and the FAA. Who do you think goes off to fight the wars to maintain the status quo of the ruling (wealthy) elites in the USA? The poor to middle class.

I can keep going. The rich don't live in some Randian fantasy world were everything is payed for in a private system. They rely on public services and sacrifices just like everybody else does. And I'm sick to death of hearing people talk as if though we owe everything to the rich as if though we were squandering, worthless idiots. Especially in a country that was founded on the backs of blacks slaves and the slaughter of American Indians.

55 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:51:46am

re: #51 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, the Ryan Plan's solution to doing away with all the corporate taxes? An 8.5% "Business Material Consumption" tax, which is little more than a badly disguised VAT. You know, the kind of tax that the GOP had screaming fits last year over the suggestion that one might be imposed by Comrade Obama?

Yep, basically they want the very wealthy to have no burden at all and the burden to be placed on the middle class. Shit really pisses me off. Even more so that people buy their crap. They don't give a crap about low taxes on the middle classes at all. It's funny. People like Bachmann are always raving about leftist elites but they're the real elitists if you ask me.

56 Big Steve  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:53:05am

re: #53 Naso Tang

There was an analysis of this in the news somewhere. In truth the highest income earners pay a large percentage of Federal Income tax, but they pay a disproportionately small percentage of other related taxes like FICA, so their actual total contribution is around 28%, not 40+.


yes but they also get less of Social Security as a ratio of income once they retire.

57 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:53:12am

Couple of typos. Ah vel.

58 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:53:42am

re: #49 Killgore Trout

LOL@Wingnuts...

Paul Ryan Gets Booed By Constituents For Opposing Tax Hikes On Rich (VIDEO)

[Video]The audience does not look like union plants. Lot's of grey hair and baseball caps.

The audio leaves a bit to be desired, but I think when he tried the old "Taxes on the rich hurt small businesses" bit, one of them said "They can afford to pay decent wages" or something like that.

59 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:54:01am

re: #49 Killgore Trout

LOL@Wingnuts...

Paul Ryan Gets Booed By Constituents For Opposing Tax Hikes On Rich (VIDEO)

[Video]The audience does not look like union plants. Lot's of grey hair and baseball caps.

Checkmate!

60 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:56:17am

re: #51 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Shit, I remember that. There were people here talking about the VAT incessantly for no apparent reason.

61 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:57:52am

re: #58 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

The audio leaves a bit to be desired, but I think when he tried the old "Taxes on the rich hurt small businesses" bit, one of them said "They can afford to pay decent wages" or something like that.

Small businesses? Does he mean like this?

Republicans Find More to Cut From the S.B.A. Budget

62 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:58:45am

re: #46 HappyWarrior

The poor and middle classes pay little taxes is nothing but a bullshit argument. I tell you what bugs me most about people like Bachmann is they get elected by demonizing taxes but many of them have zero problem with a really high sales tax which would totally screw the middle and lower classes. I think if any tax should be lowered, it ought to be the sales.

I don't know about that. Those who needed it would still be receiving aid of one sort or another and that would take the tax into account, but I agree that it would leave the richest even freer from taxation than ever.

I don't think a pure sales tax is practical. It would have to be a combination of simplified income tax and a sales tax.

63 recusancy  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:03:44pm

re: #19 Cannadian Club Akbar

See HSA. I had insurance for years and never needed it.

That about sums up the glibertarian position.

64 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:04:16pm

Let's go back to 2003...

Puncturing a Republican Tax Fable
December 19, 2003
GOP fact-twisters claim 80% of the tax relief given to the rich goes to job-creating small businesses. Don't believe it.

Summary

This fairy tale was re-told most recently by Republican National Chairman Ed Gillespie when he said in a Dec. 3 speech: “80% of the tax relief for upper income filers goes to small businesses.” It’s untrue – and a classic example of a statistical distortion gone amok.

It may be true that 79% of upper-income taxpayers have some income from business, but Gillespie’s definition of “small” business actually includes big accounting firms, law firms and real-estate partnerships, and “businesses” that are really only sidelines – such as occasional rental income from a corporate chief’s ski condo. In fact, tax statistics show that upper-income taxpayers get far more of their income from salaries, capital gains, stock dividends and interest than they do from small business.

Continues.

65 Charleston Chew  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:04:20pm
I don’t expect Republicans to simply scrap their unpopular budget agenda, but if their rhetoric from 13 months ago was sincere, shouldn’t they feel compelled to do just that?

Well, there's your problem.

66 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:04:52pm
67 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:05:06pm

re: #55 HappyWarrior

Yep, basically they want the very wealthy to have no burden at all and the burden to be placed on the middle class. Shit really pisses me off. Even more so that people buy their crap. They don't give a crap about low taxes on the middle classes at all. It's funny. People like Bachmann are always raving about leftist elites but they're the real elitists if you ask me.

You read the Ryan Plan, from front to back, and what you see is the status quo for the GOP: Finance further goodies for the rich and ever more expensive foreign wars on the back of the poor and middle class. It's a Plan that says we can't afford to keep our promises to the elderly, but we can afford to give the rich a few thousand more in their pockets.

It's political poison, no matter how you sell it.

68 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:06:22pm

re: #40 Cannadian Club Akbar

OK.
did you see what the president paid in taxes?
did you see what he paid in contributions?

Sheesh. I stir up a reaction, then I had to go talk to customers. Sorry.

No. What does that have to do with class warfare?

69 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:07:18pm

re: #56 Big Steve

yes but they also get less of Social Security as a ratio of income once they retire.

SS is not a "personal savings" plan. It is a form of insurance with actuarial calculations. Anyone earning over something like $100K does not pay in on the extra income. As such they are partially opting out of the "insurance" part of the plan and if seen as a plan based on the wealth of the nation, they are not paying their share.

I suspect the plan would be healthier if there was no cap on the contribution, and richer people were allowed to claim higher benefits if the contributed more.

Tell me if I am wrong.

71 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:08:10pm

GOP: Bechtel, PricewaterhouseCoopers And Other 'Small Businesses' Will See Tax Hike (CHARTS)

As the fight over the expiring Bush tax cuts drags on, Democrats and Republicans are vying for public support by citing figures about business tax rates. According to President Obama and the Democrats, 97 percent of small businesses will see their tax rates remain the same. Republican counter that the remaining three percent of small businesses -- about 750,000 of them -- constitute half of all small-business income. There's only one way both of those statements can be true: Many of those 750,000 small businesses aren't small at all. Some, like Bechtel Corporation, are positively enormous.

Continues.

Figure 2

72 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:09:01pm

Read that? 98.1 percent of small business filers/owners are not in the top 2 tax brackets.

73 Charleston Chew  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:09:26pm

re: #67 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

You read the Ryan Plan, from front to back, and what you see is the status quo for the GOP: Finance further goodies for the rich and ever more expensive foreign wars on the back of the poor and middle class. It's a Plan that says we can't afford to keep our promises to the elderly, but we can afford to give the rich a few thousand more in their pockets.

It's political poison, no matter how you sell it.

It's social poison, but politically they've had no problem selling it in the past.

74 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:09:46pm

Which leaves only 2 percent of small business being in the top 2 tax brackets.

75 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:10:07pm

re: #70 Varek Raith

Limbaugh Says Defaulting On The National Debt Just Means "We Won't Be Able To Borrow Any More"

Okely dokely wingnutirino.

Why should he care, he's set for life. Even if his job goes under, he's got enough socked away in the bank to survive for a good while. If those of us towards the bottom of the ladder get screwed six ways to Sunday by the economy coming to a crashing halt, well that's our problem, not his.

76 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:10:42pm

re: #74 Gus 802

Which leaves only 2 percent of small business being in the top 2 tax brackets.

I don't know the validity of this claim, but I heard that Google and IBM classify as a "small business".

77 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:11:56pm

re: #76 Varek Raith

I don't know the validity of this claim, but I heard that Google and IBM classify as a "small business".

Probably as defined by the Republican Party.

//

78 recusancy  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:13:19pm

re: #75 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Why should he care, he's set for life. Even if his job goes under, he's got enough socked away in the bank to survive for a good while. If those of us towards the bottom of the ladder get screwed six ways to Sunday by the economy coming to a crashing halt, well that's our problem, not his.

He should care. It will effect him too.

What a debt default would mean

79 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:14:02pm

Table 3: Share of wealth held by the Bottom 99% and Top 1% in the United States, 1922-2007.
Bottom 99 percent Top 1 percent
1922 63.3% 36.7%
1929 55.8% 44.2%
1933 66.7% 33.3%
1939 63.6% 36.4%
1945 70.2% 29.8%
1949 72.9% 27.1%
1953 68.8% 31.2%
1962 68.2% 31.8%
1965 65.6% 34.4%
1969 68.9% 31.1%
1972 70.9% 29.1%
1976 80.1% 19.9%
1979 79.5% 20.5%
1981 75.2% 24.8%
1983 69.1% 30.9%
1986 68.1% 31.9%
1989 64.3% 35.7%
1992 62.8% 37.2%
1995 61.5% 38.5%
1998 61.9% 38.1%
2001 66.6% 33.4%
2004 65.7% 34.3%
2007 65.4% 34.6%
Sources: 1922-1989 data from Wolff (1996). 1992-2007 data from Wolff (2010).

Note this data is only up to 2007 showing an upward trend to the top 1 percent. Check out 1929. I suspect we are getting dangerously close to that scenario.


[Link: sociology.ucsc.edu...]

80 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:17:09pm

re: #79 blueraven

Do you have the numbers for the top 5%? I suspect that will be more instructive.

81 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:23:10pm

re: #80 Naso Tang

Do you have the numbers for the top 5%? I suspect that will be more instructive.

From the link. Not the top 5% but the top 20% combined, hold 93% of the wealth.

Financial Wealth
Top 1 percent Next 19 percent Bottom 80 percent
1983 42.9% 48.4% 8.7%
1989 46.9% 46.5% 6.6%
1992 45.6% 46.7% 7.7%
1995 47.2% 45.9% 7.0%
1998 47.3% 43.6% 9.1%
2001 39.7% 51.5% 8.7%
2004 42.2% 50.3% 7.5%
2007 42.7% 50.3% 7.0%

So when you hear that republican talking point that the top 10% pay 40 percent of the taxes, that is probably true, but they also own more than 40% of the wealth in this country.

82 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:23:40pm

Freelancers, contractors, etc., are all considered small businesses. Never in my dreams have I ever reached anywhere close to the top 2 tax brackets. re: #79 blueraven

Gini coefficient

The Gini coefficient is a measure of statistical dispersion developed by the Italian statistician and sociologist Corrado Gini and published in his 1912 paper "Variability and Mutability" (Italian: Variabilità e mutabilità).

The Gini coefficient is a measure of the inequality of a distribution, a value of 0 expressing total equality and a value of 1 maximal inequality. It has found application in the study of inequalities in disciplines as diverse as sociology, economics, health science, ecology, chemistry, engineering and agriculture.

It is commonly used as a measure of inequality of income or wealth. Worldwide, Gini coefficients for income range from approximately 0.23 (Sweden) to 0.70 (Namibia) although not every country has been assessed...

Looks like we're right on par with 3rd world countries.

83 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:27:25pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

LOL@Wingnuts...

Paul Ryan Gets Booed By Constituents For Opposing Tax Hikes On Rich (VIDEO)

[Video]The audience does not look like union plants. Lot's of grey hair and baseball caps.

And he drags out the old "tax increases hurt jobs, tax cuts help jobs" meme. Of course they don't care one bit if their whole defining philosophy is ahistorical.

84 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:27:51pm

Blog about income inequality here. Includes a state map showing distribution using the GINI coefficient. Of course GINI uses math so I doubt the GOP and the wingnuts would take it seriously. It's like evolution and gravity!

85 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:28:43pm

State GINI Coef. with equivalent nations in parenthesis:

Alabama - .472 (Nepal)
Alaska - .417 (Cambodia)
Arizona - .454 (Jamaica)
Arkansas - .460 (Ecuador)
California - .466 (Rwanda)
Colorado - .450 (Uruguay)
Connecticut - .480 (Venezuela)
Delaware - .434 (Guyana)
District of Columbia - .537 (Honduras)
Florida - .467 (Rwanda)
Georgia - .461 (Mexico)
Hawaii - .438 (Nigeria)
Idaho - .421 (Thailand)
Illinois - .462 (Malaysia)
Indiana - .432 (Guyana)
Iowa - .424 (Burundi)
Kansas - .441 (Kenya)
Kentucky - .460 (Ecuador)
Louisiana - .475 (Madagascar)
Maine - .428 (Singapore)
Maryland - .433 (Guyana)
Massachusetts - .461 (Mexico)
Michigan - .444 (Philippines)
Minnesota - .430 (Iran)
Mississippi - .471 (Nepal)
Missouri - .449 (Cote d'Ivoire)
Montana - .426 (Singapore)
Nebraska - .430 (Iran)
Nevada - .434 (Turkey)
New Hampshire - .417 (Cambodia)
New Jersey - .458 (Uganda)
New Mexico - .457 (Uganda)
New York - .495 (Costa Rica)
North Carolina - .458 (Uganda)
North Dakota - .434 (Guyana)
Ohio - .449 (Cote d'Ivoire)
Oklahoma - .460 (Ecuador)
Oregon - .444 (Kenya)
Pennsylvania - .455 (Jamaica)
Rhode Island - .442 (Philippines)
South Carolina - .462 (Mexico)
South Dakota - .439 (Nigeria)
Tennessee - .468 (Rwanda)
Texas - .474 (Mozambique)
Utah - .410 (Russia)
Vermont - .420 (Thailand)
Virginia - .456 (Uganda)
Washington - .443 (Kenya)
West Virginia - .447 (Cameroon)
Wisconsin - .424 (Burundi)
Wyoming - .413 (Senegal)

86 dmon  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:29:43pm

If they are upset that the bottom 47% pay no taxes, it could be solved by paying the bottom 47% higher wages, then they'd pay taxes.

87 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:30:40pm

re: #85 Gus 802

State GINI Coef. with equivalent nations in parenthesis:

Crikey.

88 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:30:45pm

And I'll save the lurkers the time by posting a link on Corrado Gini here.

89 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:31:53pm

re: #85 Gus 802

State GINI Coef. with equivalent nations in parenthesis:

I don't mind that we have a wealth disparity like Nepal's, it's just that our scenery really sucks.

90 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:32:54pm

re: #89 Decatur Deb

I don't mind that we have a wealth disparity like Nepal's, it's just that our scenery really sucks.

Heck. Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki all look better than the average American city.

91 Randy W. Weeks  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:33:30pm

re: #12 blueraven

They know they are protected, so they dont give a shit about the rest of us.

I'm 56. My wife is 50. Sure as fuck affects me. And I even give a shit about my kids! Imagine that!

92 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:35:39pm

re: #81 blueraven

but they also own more than 40% of the wealth in this country.

Therein lies the the issue. Some people see a nation, some people see just themselves, when convenient.

93 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:36:03pm

re: #90 Gus 802

Heck. Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki all look better than the average American city.

The Decatur Deb was an agent of urban renewal.

94 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:36:19pm

re: #86 dmon

If they are upset that the bottom 47% pay no taxes, it could be solved by paying the bottom 47% higher wages, then they'd pay taxes.

Wealth redistribution!

///

95 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:36:29pm

More lame-o-la from the Queen of Wingnuts...

@SarahPalinUSA Sarah Palin

Wow. That's desperation, libs. MT "@dcexaminer: Paul Ryan attacked bc dad died when Paul was 16, w/survivor benefits [Link: bit.ly...]
96 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:37:30pm

Apparently, Paul Ryan collected Social Security benefits until he was 18 after his father died.

97 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:38:39pm

IOW. Paul Ryan avoided poverty because of? You guessed it. Social Security and the federal government.

98 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:39:55pm

Objectivists aren't very devout practitioners of their Randian religion. Ayn Rand herself dipped into the collectivist pot.

99 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:40:07pm

re: #97 Gus 802

IOW. Paul Ryan avoided poverty because of? You guessed it. Social Security and the federal government.

Wait, you mean a Republican once survived on government support? How can that be, when we all know that Republicans are such strong believers in rugged individualism and bootstrapping?

/

100 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:41:31pm

re: #98 Gus 802

Objectivists aren't very devout practitioners of their Randian religion. Ayn Rand herself dipped into the collectivist pot.

Non apologetic selfishness!

101 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:42:56pm

re: #100 blueraven

Non apologetic selfishness!

Selective, revisionist, hypocrites. They all talk the talk but many if not most have never walked the walk.

102 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:43:12pm

Andrew Breitbart is on MSNBC again promoting his book, and he just praised World Net Daily loon Jack Cashill said he believes Bill Ayers wrote Obama's autobiography.

103 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:44:37pm

I just caught the tail end of an interview with Breitbart on MSNBC. I've never seen him before. What an in your face asshole.

He sees ghosts too. His counter to any question is that the speaker has the ghosts of Media Matter on one side and Soros on the other whispering in the ear of whoever he disagrees with, and that means anything they say is invalid.

104 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:44:39pm

re: #98 Gus 802

Objectivists aren't very devout practitioners of their Randian religion. Ayn Rand herself dipped into the collectivist pot.

They all help themselves heartily to government programs, while sniffing that "It's my tax dollars, so I'm entitled to it!"

105 engineer cat  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:46:09pm

breitbart gets hysterical when confronted with difficult questions

106 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:47:32pm

re: #105 engineer dog

breitbart gets hysterical when confronted with difficult questions

i.e. the truth.

107 justaminute  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:47:54pm

The poor and the bottom ranked middle class may pay less federal they do pay a lot of state and sales tax. Until the loopholes in the federal tax system are removed and enforced, let's just say I'm not holding my breath. I really believe our government is broken. How many of our elected leaders have any in depth knowledge of the tax code? How many voters? When I worked at the IRS the number one complaint; you could ask two agents a question on code you got two different answers. We have let this problem go unanswered too long. I think it should be our number one priority. My two cents.

108 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:47:54pm

re: #105 engineer dog

breitbart gets hysterical when confronted with difficult questions

FTFY

//

109 funky chicken  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:49:01pm

re: #4 Cannadian Club Akbar

People who get stuff for free will never vote against it. See medicare Part D.

Which was a GOP "accomplishment," as you recall.

So they pass a ridiculously expensive (and unfunded) Medicare add-on a few years back and now want to scrap the whole system because it's too expensive. Uh huh.

110 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:51:19pm

re: #109 funky chicken

Which was a GOP "accomplishment," as you recall.

So they pass a ridiculously expensive (and unfunded) Medicare add-on a few years back and now want to scrap the whole system because it's too expensive. Uh huh.

As was the medicare advantage program. The free market insurance program for seniors was a major cost experiment fail.

111 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:51:34pm

re: #109 funky chicken

Which was a GOP "accomplishment," as you recall.

So they pass a ridiculously expensive (and unfunded) Medicare add-on a few years back and now want to scrap the whole system because it's too expensive. Uh huh.

Yeah, Part D, which Ryan happily voted in favor of, in addition to raising the debt ceiling (without conditions) to cover the costs.

Now? He wants to dismantle Medicare in toto, while declaring that any debt ceiling bill must include cuts and spending limits.

Amazing how quickly the leopards in the GOP change their spots when they're no longer in power, huh?

112 funky chicken  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:52:25pm
President Bush on Monday signed into law landmark Medicare reform legislation that includes prescription drug benefits and has sparked a bitter fight between opponents and supporters.

Speaking at DAR Constitution Hall in Washington, Bush characterized the measure as "the greatest advance in health care coverage for America's seniors since the founding of Medicare."

Backers say the $400 billion Medicare Prescription Drug Modernization Act will provide much-needed help for the nation's 40 million senior citizens to buy medications; critics say it is a giveaway to drug makers and insurance companies and a prelude to the dismantling of the program.
"Our government," Bush said, "is finally bringing prescription drug coverage to the seniors of America."

"With this law, we're giving older Americans better choices and more control over their health care, so they can receive the modern medical care they deserve," he said.

In addition to the prescription drug benefits, the measure provides billions of dollars in subsidies to insurance companies and health maintenance organizations, and takes the first step toward allowing private plans to compete with Medicare.

It is the largest expansion of Medicare since the program was created in 1965, though most of its provisions won't take effect for several years. The drug benefit, for example, does not take effect until 2006. Before that, seniors will be able to purchase a discount card that could provide a 10 to 25 percent off prescription drugs.

"Our nation has made a promise, a solemn promise, to America's seniors," Bush said. "We have pledged to help our citizens find affordable medical care in the later years of life."

"These reforms are the act of a vibrant and compassionate government," Bush said.

[Link: articles.cnn.com...]

113 brennant  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:56:38pm

They guy who made Restrepo was killed in Libya fighting.

MSNBC link

Sad.

114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:57:15pm

re: #102 Charles

We all know there's nothing to these rumors.

Hell, Oliver Stone ain't even made a movie about it.

115 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:59:45pm

re: #102 Charles

Andrew Breitbart is on MSNBC again promoting his book, and he just praised World Net Daily loon Jack Cashill said he believes Bill Ayers wrote Obama's autobiography.

Loons gotta stick together.

116 Slap  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 12:59:56pm

On the rich and taxes and mis-perceptions:

9 Things the Rich Don't Want You to Know About Taxes

Someone with a far better understanding of the mathematics behind this gentleman's research can evaluate this better than I -- but to my eyes, virtually everything in this article appears to be on rock-solid ground. And I found it to be a well-written and well-researched piece.

(I am aware that the concepts of "economics" and "rock-solid ground" don't necessarily have anything in common, mind you....)

117 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:00:27pm

re: #114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

We all know there's nothing to these rumors.

Hell, Oliver Stone ain't even made a movie about it.

I just saw Bill Ayers and Andrew Breitbart together out on the golf course this morning.

//

118 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:02:34pm

re: #117 Gus 802

I just saw Bill Ayers and Andrew Breitbart together out on the golf course this morning.

//

George Soros streaked the event.

119 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:03:19pm

re: #116 Slap

IMO, supply-side economics is shit. Demand-side is where the real, stable, growth is to be found.

120 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:03:46pm

re: #118 Varek Raith

Pass the brain bleach.

121 Interesting Times  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:04:05pm

re: #83 prononymous

And he drags out the old "tax increases hurt jobs, tax cuts help jobs" meme.

Image: largeimage.17809a681b9ee6bef1b9a22df9b7cf64.gif

122 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:05:09pm

re: #120 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Pass the brain bleach.

Muhahahahaha!

123 SteelGHAZI  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:06:01pm

re: #119 prononymous

Supply-side Jesus!

124 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:07:12pm

re: #119 prononymous

IMO, supply-side economics is shit. Demand-side is where the real, stable, growth is to be found.

That's where you sell your goods. In general, 1 CEO makes about 300 times the average worker. But, you can sell a lot more car, gasoline and tires to 300 people.

125 tnguitarist  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:08:26pm

re: #54 Gus 802

Who do you think keeps the waterways open for the yachts that the rich play one? The Army Corps of Engineers and the Coast Guard. Who do you think keeps the airways safe and operating for the private jets of the wealthy? The NTSB and the FAA. Who do you think goes off to fight the wars to maintain the status quo of the ruling (wealthy) elites in the USA? The poor to middle class.

I can keep going. The rich don't live in some Randian fantasy world were everything is payed for in a private system. They rely on public services and sacrifices just like everybody else does. And I'm sick to death of hearing people talk as if though we owe everything to the rich as if though we were squandering, worthless idiots. Especially in a country that was founded on the backs of blacks slaves and the slaughter of American Indians.

Can I get a special exemption to double-like this?

126 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:09:06pm

re: #125 tnguitarist

Can I get a special exemption to double-like this?

Vote early and vote often.

//

127 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:10:17pm

re: #123 SteelPH

Supply-side Jesus!

Someone needs to remix this song as Supply-side Jesus. "Someone to hear your prayers, who doesn't care", etc. And resurrect Johnny Cash to sing it.

128 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:10:28pm

The U.S. has three options. Cut spending, raise taxes, or go bankrupt. If we raise taxes it will have to come from the middle class. The rich can't cover the governments spending, even if they take all of it. The poor don't have any money to tax either.
For a politician to say "We're going to raise everyone's taxes" is death (just ask Walter Mondale) , hence Bachmann's "spread the base" and the president's "spending reductions in the tax code" doublespeak.
The Tea Party has been completely demonized at this site, discussion about cutting spending is beyond me. In my opinion though, a school spending over $10K per student and the student is not receiving and education, seems like continuing to spend money repairing an old Fiat. There has to be a cheaper way to find transportation to work.
Go bankrupt? I have no idea what effect that would have on the individuals of this country, but it can't be good.
I think we're all boned, no matter who is going to be running the place in a couple of years.

129 recusancy  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:11:20pm

If anyone cares, Obama's doing a facebook townhall in 35 minutes. You can watch here. Tell him to get the government out of your Medicare!

130 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:12:18pm

re: #128 TNChuckster

The Tea Party has been completely demonized at this site

They are completely self-demonizing. If you don't see that, I have no use for any of your analysis.

131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:14:35pm

re: #128 TNChuckster

Morons killed the tea party. Wasn't LGF.

Had they kept the nonsense out? I'd probably had gotten involved.

132 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:15:23pm

re: #128 TNChuckster

False dichotomy. I believe that there are spending cuts that could be made. Government waste is a real issue, if overblown for political effect. I also believe that we should raise taxes, progressively. A pragmatic approach would beat any ideologically driven policy, imo.

133 Slap  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:16:09pm

re: #130 wrenchwench

They are completely self-demonizing. If you don't see that, I have no use for any of your analysis.

Actually, within the specifics of the discussion, that statement The one to which you're responding) is kinda dangling out there, unconnected to whatever point is being attempted.

134 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:16:42pm

re: #128 TNChuckster

The U.S. has three options. Cut spending, raise taxes, or go bankrupt.

What do you mean by 'bankrupt', in terms of a country?

135 Slap  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:16:59pm

re: #133 Slap

Actually, within the specifics of the discussion, that statement The one to which you're responding) is kinda dangling out there, unconnected to whatever point is being attempted.

And, I might add, deserving of derision.

136 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:17:12pm

re: #128 TNChuckster

No there is another way...cut spending AND raise taxes. For some reason the TPGOP tend to ignore this possibility and prefer to make up the deficit on the backs of the poor, the disabled and the elderly.

137 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:18:59pm

re: #128 TNChuckster

No one is suggesting that the rich "cover the governments spending". There's a big difference between that and the Bush tax cuts. Those tax cuts included an "expiration date" for a reason. And keep in mind that Obama went along to extend those tax cuts but only to prevent them from expiring and hitting the other 98 percent of America.

138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:19:26pm

re: #134 Obdicut

What do you mean by 'bankrupt', in terms of a country?

Nuke our creditors.

139 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:19:40pm

re: #135 Slap

And, I might add, deserving of derision.

Here's another one that qualifies:

In my opinion though, a school spending over $10K per student and the student is not receiving and [sic] education, seems like continuing to spend money repairing an old Fiat.
140 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:20:03pm

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nuke our creditors.

Trump! /

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:20:17pm

re: #34 Cannadian Club Akbar

no, like here. Make everyone pay for other peoples stuff. Waaa!!

If everyone pays for other people's stuff, presumably, the other people are also paying for everyone's stuff, so it should all even out in the long run, no?

142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:22:16pm

re: #134 Obdicut

What do you mean by 'bankrupt', in terms of a country?

Steven Wright line...

“Hi I’m Mr. Jones, the student loan director from your bank. It seems you’ve missed your last 17 payments. The university you attended said they received none of the $17,000.00 we loaned you. We would just like to know what happened to the money.”

I said. “Let me give it to you straight. I gave all my money to my friend Jigs Casey and he built a nuclear bomb, & I’d really appreciate it, if you never called me again.”

143 Slap  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:22:42pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

If everyone pays for other people's stuff, presumably, the other people are also paying for everyone's stuff, so it should all even out in the long run, no?

Do we have a "reply of the year" category?

I nominate this.

144 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:23:34pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

If everyone pays for other people's stuff, presumably, the other people are also paying for everyone's stuff, so it should all even out in the long run, no?

Is that like the common law of other people's stuff thermodynamics?

//

145 recusancy  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:23:51pm

re: #142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Steven Wright line...

“Hi I’m Mr. Jones, the student loan director from your bank. It seems you’ve missed your last 17 payments. The university you attended said they received none of the $17,000.00 we loaned you. We would just like to know what happened to the money.”

I said. “Let me give it to you straight. I gave all my money to my friend Jigs Casey and he built a nuclear bomb, & I’d really appreciate it, if you never called me again.”

Are you suggesting that America is not paying any of it's creditors? We are. The only thing stopping us from doing it would be the arbitrary debt ceiling that no other nation on earth has.

146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:24:45pm

re: #145 recusancy

Are you suggesting that America is not paying any of it's creditors? We are. The only thing stopping us from doing it would be the arbitrary debt ceiling that no other nation on earth has.

No. I was suggesting that Steven Wright made a funny joke.

147 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:25:10pm

re: #128 TNChuckster

The U.S. has three options. Cut spending, raise taxes, or go bankrupt. If we raise taxes it will have to come from the middle class. The rich can't cover the governments spending, even if they take all of it. The poor don't have any money to tax either.

Why do you see "cutting spending" and "raising taxes" as mutually exclusive? There are plenty of cuts in the budget, particularly in the defense budget, that can be done in addition to modest tax increases. Hell, raising taxes back to Clinton-era levels would do plenty to fix our current revenue problems.

For a politician to say "We're going to raise everyone's taxes" is death (just ask Walter Mondale) , hence Bachmann's "spread the base" and the president's "spending reductions in the tax code" doublespeak.

Bachmann's "spread the base" BS runs on the idea that we can't ask the rich to pay more, so we have to ask the poor and middle class to "chip in." Before we start talking about "spreading," how 'bout we first start talking about ending all the tax loopholes and deducations that the rich enjoy, as well as taking a lot of the caps on various taxes that keep them from paying as much as a guy making a fraction of their yearly income?

The Tea Party has been completely demonized at this site, discussion about cutting spending is beyond me.

You can't tarnish a rusted blade. The Tea Party's a joke and our pointing that out is not in any way "demonizing" them.

In my opinion though, a school spending over $10K per student and the student is not receiving and education, seems like continuing to spend money repairing an old Fiat. There has to be a cheaper way to find transportation to work.

The problems with our education system are many and complex, but "overspending" is not even close to the top.

Go bankrupt? I have no idea what effect that would have on the individuals of this country, but it can't be good.

Economic apocalypse, to say the least. But you're not gonna hear that from the GOP anytime soon.

I think we're all boned, no matter who is going to be running the place in a couple of years.

We are if we keep trying to look at the problem in simplistic terms. Or looking for a "pain free" solution. We spent decades getting ourselves into this problem, it's not one that's going to be fixed overnight, nor is it going to be easy.

148 recusancy  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:25:14pm

re: #146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No. I was suggesting that Steven Wright made a funny joke.

Ok then :)

149 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:25:20pm

re: #128 TNChuckster

Feh.

1) Raise taxes on everyone to Clinton levels.
2) Declare victory and bring the troops home.
3) Cut DOD spending by 25%
4) Make all corporations pay tax
5) End corporate welfare
6) End farm subsidies to any farm with a gross income over $250k a year.
7) What deficit?

150 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:26:13pm

re: #142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Steven Wright line...

“Hi I’m Mr. Jones, the student loan director from your bank. It seems you’ve missed your last 17 payments. The university you attended said they received none of the $17,000.00 we loaned you. We would just like to know what happened to the money.”

I said. “Let me give it to you straight. I gave all my money to my friend Jigs Casey and he built a nuclear bomb, & I’d really appreciate it, if you never called me again.”

Lol.
Cause, you see, my friend has this nuclear bomb...

151 Slap  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:26:43pm

re: #144 Gus 802

Is that like the common law of other people's stuff thermodynamics?

//

I try and stay away from other peoples stuff thermodynamics, myself....

152 justaminute  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:27:09pm

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nuke our creditors.

That's exactly what the Republicans want to do. One of the biggest creditors they are going after is the $2 trillion in bonds being held by Social Security.

153 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:29:19pm

Slap, I can't imagine getting a fair shake here in a talk about cutting spending. Smaller government is their stated purpose. Poor choice of mine for introducing my opinion about that.
I had two downdings on my original post when I refreshed my page after posting. I posted an opinion, and wrenchwench called it an analysis and slammed me.

154 recusancy  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:30:29pm

re: #149 wlewisiii

Feh.

1) Raise taxes on everyone to Clinton levels.
2) Declare victory and bring the troops home.
3) Cut DOD spending by 25%
4) Make all corporations pay tax
5) End corporate welfare
6) End farm subsidies to any farm with a gross income over $250k a year.
7) What deficit?

Here's a way. With numbers. (via)

155 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:30:47pm

re: #153 TNChuckster

Slap, I can't imagine getting a fair shake here in a talk about cutting spending. Smaller government is their stated purpose. Poor choice of mine for introducing my opinion about that.
I had two downdings on my original post when I refreshed my page after posting. I posted an opinion, and wrenchwench called it an analysis and slammed me.

Play the victim: Check.

156 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:31:12pm

re: #153 TNChuckster

Again: What do you mean by 'bankrupt', in terms of a nation?

157 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:32:00pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

If everyone pays for other people's stuff, presumably, the other people are also paying for everyone's stuff, so it should all even out in the long run, no?

Rotating title nomination!

158 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:32:32pm

re: #157 Floral Giraffe

Rotating title nomination!

WITCHCRAFT!!!

159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:32:52pm

re: #153 TNChuckster

Slap, I can't imagine getting a fair shake here in a talk about cutting spending. Smaller government is their stated purpose. Poor choice of mine for introducing my opinion about that.
I had two downdings on my original post when I refreshed my page after posting. I posted an opinion, and wrenchwench called it an analysis and slammed me.


Sorry Chuck... I saw the tea party quip and you lost me. I'm a low taxes small government righty... But the Tea Party has limited defense available to it; other than, "Great idea, hijacked by idiots."

Didn't downding you, but the Tea Party quip was an unnecessary poke in an otherwise well written post (IMO).

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:33:31pm

re: #153 TNChuckster

Slap, I can't imagine getting a fair shake here in a talk about cutting spending. Smaller government is their stated purpose. Poor choice of mine for introducing my opinion about that.
I had two downdings on my original post when I refreshed my page after posting. I posted an opinion, and wrenchwench called it an analysis and slammed me.

Don't worry about the fair hearing. State your case, listen to other people's, and ignore the dings! It's a bit of a free-for-all in here.

161 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:34:10pm

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

Don't worry about the fair hearing. State your case, listen to other people's, and ignore the dings! It's a bit of a free-for-all in here.

And I'm a jerk.
;)

162 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:34:12pm

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

*smack*

163 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:35:19pm

re: #161 Varek Raith

And I'm a jerk.
;)

You're a Sith, it goes without saying.

164 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:35:21pm

re: #153 TNChuckster

Slap, I can't imagine getting a fair shake here in a talk about cutting spending. Smaller government is their stated purpose. Poor choice of mine for introducing my opinion about that.
I had two downdings on my original post when I refreshed my page after posting. I posted an opinion, and wrenchwench called it an analysis and slammed me.

I apologize for insinuating that there was any analysis contained in your opinion.

Also, you don't have to refresh the page to see your dings. Just click the number. You can even see who gave 'em to you. (You're welcome)

165 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:35:27pm
166 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:35:47pm

re: #152 justaminute

That's exactly what the Republicans want to do. One of the biggest creditors they are going after is the $2 trillion in bonds being held by Social Security.

I hear that US corporations are sitting on at least $2 trillion in cash that they are not investing or spending, until the other guy goes first.

Since they are also not paying any significant taxes on these profits, perhaps they could be persuaded to buy out some of those bonds held by the Chinese?

//

167 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:36:17pm

re: #154 recusancy

Here's a way. With numbers. (via)

Oh, yeah, I liked that one. I ran a number of scenarios when it was published.

I did forget one thing I believe - increase the SS cap to $1,000,000 from the current level. That would help a wee bit too.

168 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:36:34pm

re: #165 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Even though one of the people being profiled is mentally ill?

169 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:36:40pm

re: #165 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm sorry, I think this is awesome!

Read this and tell me whether it changes your mind.

170 Slap  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:36:59pm

re: #153 TNChuckster

Slap, I can't imagine getting a fair shake here in a talk about cutting spending. Smaller government is their stated purpose. Poor choice of mine for introducing my opinion about that.
I had two downdings on my original post when I refreshed my page after posting. I posted an opinion, and wrenchwench called it an analysis and slammed me.

Here's a simple truth:

If you are looking to hit a rhetorical target, it's sometimes best to stick to one, bring your facts together, focus your point/argument and sit back.

If your position is thought-out, coherent, free of dubious facts, and particularly free of talking points, I guarantee you will get a fair shake. Not necessarily agreement, mind you -- but I have yet to see a poster meeting the above qualifications to be given less than a fair shake.

Unsupported, poorly-thought out and cliche'd ideas, on the other hand, are usually met with varying degrees of scorn.

Really, it's simple.

171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:38:52pm

re: #169 wrenchwench

Read this and tell me whether it changes your mind.

Yeah... take off the mentally ill... the rest? Meh. Low sympathy levels here.

172 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:39:39pm

re: #171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah... take off the mentally ill... the rest? Meh. Low sympathy levels here.

Arpaio is no good at that kind of distinction. The man is mean.

173 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:39:50pm

re: #147 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I don't see cutting spending and raising taxes as mutually exclusive. I don't see any way that they are going to meet in the middle and solve the debt crisis. Cutting spending by less than half a billion against a multi trillion dollar deficit led to threats to shut down the govenment. The president's speech talks about cutting tax breaks for the wealthiest americans, which would also be a drop in the bucket.

174 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:39:53pm

I am in a hotel lobby right now... there's a "Buy Gold!" show here.

175 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:40:40pm

re: #153 TNChuckster

Slap, I can't imagine getting a fair shake here in a talk about cutting spending. Smaller government is their stated purpose. Poor choice of mine for introducing my opinion about that.
I had two downdings on my original post when I refreshed my page after posting. I posted an opinion, and wrenchwench called it an analysis and slammed me.

Sure sounded like an analysis to me. You got slapped because it was a poor one.

Next time you post an opinion, make sure you finish by saying you don't really know what you are talking about. That way nobody will take it seriously.

176 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:41:11pm

re: #173 TNChuckster

You referred to the US going bankrupt. Can you explain what you mean by bankrupt in that context?

Otherwise, it's hard to understand what you're talking about, at all.

What is the 'bankruptcy' that you would like us to avoid?

177 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:42:18pm

re: #172 wrenchwench

He doesn't run on a "kindness" platform, that's for sure.

178 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:42:21pm

re: #171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah... take off the mentally ill... the rest? Meh. Low sympathy levels here.

Well. It's not very professional for one. Another thing is that technically, these are mugshots and a sheriff's department is not a court of law. Which means that while we might laugh at some of these mugshots they are innocent until proven guilty. I question the practice of publicizing mugshots like this.

179 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:42:52pm

re: #156 Obdicut

Sheesh you want answers and you want the NOW!!! I get it.

Bankrupt as in defaulting on the national debt.

180 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:43:15pm

re: #128 TNChuckster

The U.S. has three options. Cut spending, raise taxes, or go bankrupt. If we raise taxes it will have to come from the middle class. The rich can't cover the governments spending, even if they take all of it. The poor don't have any money to tax either.
For a politician to say "We're going to raise everyone's taxes" is death (just ask Walter Mondale) , hence Bachmann's "spread the base" and the president's "spending reductions in the tax code" doublespeak.
The Tea Party has been completely demonized at this site, discussion about cutting spending is beyond me. In my opinion though, a school spending over $10K per student and the student is not receiving and education, seems like continuing to spend money repairing an old Fiat. There has to be a cheaper way to find transportation to work.
Go bankrupt? I have no idea what effect that would have on the individuals of this country, but it can't be good.
I think we're all boned, no matter who is going to be running the place in a couple of years.

The rich have some of the historically lowest tax rates on them that they've ever had in the history of the US.

Why the f*** can't we raise taxes on them?

181 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:44:41pm

re: #177 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He doesn't run on a "kindness" platform, that's for sure.

He's also being investigated for about three kinds of corruption.

182 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:47:08pm

re: #173 TNChuckster

I don't see cutting spending and raising taxes as mutually exclusive. I don't see any way that they are going to meet in the middle and solve the debt crisis. Cutting spending by less than half a billion against a multi trillion dollar deficit led to threats to shut down the govenment. The president's speech talks about cutting tax breaks for the wealthiest americans, which would also be a drop in the bucket.

What met threats to shut down the government was penny-ante cuts, most of them aimed based upon ideology rather than necessity. When you treat entire sections of the budget as sacred cows, saying they simply can't be cut, then you're right, you're not going to be able to make ends meet.

And tax breaks are just the start of what the rich can start paying in this nation. Ending subsidies, closing loopholes, sealing off tax havens, and slapping tariffs on goods produced offshore by companies headquartered here in the states would do a lot to make up for our revenue deficiencies.

183 justaminute  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:50:30pm

The Tea Party had support and look what they did with it. Look at the Governors they elected! In Michigan, the Governor is dissolving a city's duly elected Mayor and city council. Need I mention FL and WI? Their candidates for Congress, I'm hard pressed to find any legislation that doesn't have to do with social issues and what does that have to do with Taxed Enough Already? The R party got another chance because of the jobs issue. It's still one when you look at the polling for all of Congress and the President.

184 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:51:15pm

re: #179 TNChuckster

Sheesh you want answers and you want the NOW!!! I get it.

Bankrupt as in defaulting on the national debt.

Well, when someone avoids a question, it tends to set me off, yes.

If we did default we would indeed be an analogue of bankruptcy. Thank you.

But we are fully capable of still borrowing money and not defaulting. So, I assume you mean long term.

And when you say this:


If we raise taxes it will have to come from the middle class. The rich can't cover the governments spending, even if they take all of it. The poor don't have any money to tax either.

This is really weird. I mean, why wouldn't you say that we'd have to raise taxes on the middle class as well as the rich? And why are you talking about taking all of the money of the rich? This is a weird meme that's been traveling around.

185 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:54:52pm

re: #173 TNChuckster

I don't see cutting spending and raising taxes as mutually exclusive. I don't see any way that they are going to meet in the middle and solve the debt crisis. Cutting spending by less than half a billion against a multi trillion dollar deficit led to threats to shut down the govenment. The president's speech talks about cutting tax breaks for the wealthiest americans, which would also be a drop in the bucket.

You are mixing debt with deficit. It cant all come from 12% of spending (discretionary) over a 5 month period.

186 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:55:21pm

This is going really fast for me, and I can't respond to everyone in a timely manner, if at all. I didn't expect a kind of spanish inquisition ( and who does ). That's O.K. though, your house your rules.

187 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:56:36pm

re: #186 TNChuckster

Well, instead of spending your time talking about not answering questions, you could pick one or two to answer.

If you don't expect your points to be examined and weaknesses pointed out, then why are you stating your opinion? What use is it, if you don't care what others think of it?

188 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:56:49pm

re: #186 TNChuckster

This is going really fast for me, and I can't respond to everyone in a timely manner, if at all. I didn't expect a kind of spanish inquisition ( and who does ). That's O.K. though, your house your rules.

It's called 'debating'. You're stuff is just rather easy to shoot down.
Being filled with misconceptions and strawmen.

189 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:57:05pm

re: #186 TNChuckster

I didn't expect a kind of spanish inquisition ( and who does ).

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

190 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 1:57:33pm

re: #188 Varek Raith

It's called 'debating'. Your stuff is just rather easy to shoot down.
Being filled with misconceptions and strawmen.

Jeebus, Varek, LEARN TO SPELL!!
Lol

191 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:03:13pm

re: #184 Obdicut

You did ask me several times in a short span while I was responding to previous responses.

The meme I think is a reponse to the president speaking as if only raising taxes on the rich would be the solution to reducing the deficit. The point the meme makes is that even if the government put a %100 percent tax on everyone making over #250K, that would still not balance the budget.

192 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:03:16pm

re: #186 TNChuckster

Yes, it can be a tough room!

193 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:04:28pm

re: #192 Floral Giraffe

Yes, it can be a tough room!

Silence woman!
///

194 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:06:06pm

re: #188 Varek Raith

No, a debate is where one person speaks, then the other person responds and so on... I feel like charlie sheen at a press conference.

195 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:06:19pm

re: #186 TNChuckster

This is going really fast for me, and I can't respond to everyone in a timely manner, if at all. I didn't expect a kind of spanish inquisition ( and who does ). That's O.K. though, your house your rules.

What are your house rules when it comes to disagreement?

196 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:07:54pm

re: #187 Obdicut

I didn't know you were the helen thomas of the room.

197 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:09:54pm

re: #196 TNChuckster

I was wondering why you were triggering my "Troll Sense".
Now I know.

198 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:10:02pm

re: #196 TNChuckster

Whoa! That was a dumb thing to say especially your choice of Helen Thomas.

199 jaunte  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:10:37pm

re: #197 Varek Raith

This is all going so fast for me.

200 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:10:52pm

re: #191 TNChuckster

The meme I think is a reponse to the president speaking as if only raising taxes on the rich would be the solution to reducing the deficit. The point the meme makes is that even if the government put a %100 percent tax on everyone making over #250K, that would still not balance the budget.

I have never heard Obama say that only raising taxes on the rich would be the solution. I've heard you say that only raising them on the middle class would be a solution. So, aren't you the one being oddly absolutist?

Spending needs to be cut, certainly. The best way to do that is by reducing costs. I'm all for that. I'm not for blindly slashing items off the budget without asking if they will actually lead to higher costs, which is what starting from a 'cut spending' position often leads to.

That raising taxes on the upper income earners-- and on capital gains-- wouldn't completely fund the current level of spending does not mean it is not still a good idea. If nothing else, it does reduce the level of accumulated debt, which is on the road to a balanced budget.

No?

201 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:11:36pm

re: #196 TNChuckster

I didn't know you were the helen thomas of the room.

What are you talking about?

Helen Thomas is a horrible old woman who talks shit about Jews.

I'm a Jew.

Can you rephrase your insult in a less stupid manner, please?

202 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:11:37pm

re: #197 Varek Raith

I was wondering why you were triggering my "Troll Sense".
Now I know.

I got a triple alarm from #186.

203 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:14:11pm

re: #193 Varek Raith

Silence woman!
///

Zaps Varek with her secret weapon!

204 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:14:57pm

re: #196 TNChuckster

I didn't know you were the helen thomas of the room.

LOL!
Looked in a mirror lately?

205 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:15:00pm

re: #199 jaunte

This is all going so fast for me.

That's what he said.

206 Gus  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:15:25pm

In other news. TNChuckster just put a size 54 shoe in his mouth.

207 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:17:28pm

re: #203 Floral Giraffe

Zaps Varek with her secret weapon!

Kinky.

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:19:03pm

re: #196 TNChuckster

I didn't know you were the helen thomas of the room.

OK, outta line. If you're overwhelmed by the room, it's OK to say so and pull back a little, although I can't be responsible for everyone here cooperating--but calling someone 'Helen Thomas' is decidedly ugly.

This is more of a debate setting than a lot of blogs. If you're feeling blasted, read the threads for a few days and get a sense of how we roll, try again. Don't start insulting people.

209 General Nimrod Bodfish  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:20:01pm

re: #206 Gus 802

In other news. TNChuckster just put a size 54 shoe in his mouth.

And Obdicut's going to go Red Foreman on him (intellectually speaking) soon :P . Gonna need a proctologist and a dentist to get two feet out of him.

210 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:22:42pm

re: #200 Obdicut

Among the many people clamoring for attention, you were the most insistent, and posted as if I should be responding only to you. helen thomas was the person who came to mind as the senior reporter granted first question at presidential press conferences. I am sorry, the comparison was less than thoughtful.

Your right also, the president does not only say that an increase on taxes will balance the budget. he also said there needs to be a "spending reduction in the tax code" That's doublespeak for a raise in taxes on the middle class, because, and this is the point I was making in my original post, even if he taxed all the income of people making over $250K that wouldn't balance the budget, Where Else But The Middle Class Is the Money Going to Come From?

211 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:28:54pm

re: #210 TNChuckster

Among the many people clamoring for attention, you were the most insistent, and posted as if I should be responding only to you. helen thomas was the person who came to mind as the senior reporter granted first question at presidential press conferences. I am sorry, the comparison was less than thoughtful.

Your right also, the president does not only say that an increase on taxes will balance the budget. he also said there needs to be a "spending reduction in the tax code" That's doublespeak for a raise in taxes on the middle class, because, and this is the point I was making in my original post, even if he taxed all the income of people making over $250K that wouldn't balance the budget, Where Else But The Middle Class Is the Money Going to Come From?

You could raise the income tax on those making 250K+ to 100% and still, with the various caps on other taxes, in addition to the multitude of loopholes and deductions, they'd still be getting money back. "Spending reduction" means dealing with those ways that the rich exploit the current clusterfuck of a tax code to pay far less than the guy making a fraction of what they do a year.

212 BongCrodny  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:30:24pm

re: #124 Gus 802

That's where you sell your goods. In general, 1 CEO makes about 300 times the average worker. But, you can sell a lot more car, gasoline and tires to 300 people.


Did you see "The Other Guys"?

The credits at the end of the movie are awesome.

It all belongs to the big guys

213 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:31:21pm

re: #210 TNChuckster

Next time, try just not tossing out an insult at all.

I'm not sure how else I can be clear. I'm advocating the reduction of spending through cutting costs as well as an increase in taxes on the upper income levels, and on capital gains. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan will not last forever, and that represents a lot of the current debt.

The amount of spending we should have is equal to the amount we need to spend, on actual beneficial programs. That is the number that needs to be derived, and then the ways of raising that revenue. But there's plenty in the budget to cut-- I just don't want it done willy-nilly, as the GOP approach would have us do, with no thought for what costs cutting that spending will incur down the road.

214 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:33:33pm

re: #211 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

No, even if the goverment confiscated (not taxed, conficated) every single dollar the top five percent earned that wouldn't balance the budget.

215 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:34:47pm

re: #214 TNChuckster

Since nobody is talking about doing this, why do you repeat it over and over?

216 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:36:17pm

re: #214 TNChuckster

No, even if the goverment confiscated (not taxed, conficated) every single dollar the top five percent earned that wouldn't balance the budget.

"Confiscated"? Yeah, I can see where this is going and I'm tired of treading that particular road. The bit about "demonizing" the Tea Party should have been the tip off, but this cemented it.

Free Republic is that way ------->

217 General Nimrod Bodfish  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:39:16pm

re: #214 TNChuckster

Dude, no one is saying that just raising taxes to 100% on the wealthy is going to balance the budget. Why you still repeat that is beyond me.

218 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:40:52pm

re: #180 jamesfirecat

The rich have some of the historically lowest tax rates on them that they've ever had in the history of the US.

Why the f*** can't we raise taxes on them?

Because the TPGOP muckety-mucks aren't about to antagonize a sizable chunk of their financial supporters by putting out the idea of seriously raising taxes for the rich.

If they did, they'd have no one left but poor and middle-class wingnuts...

219 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:41:49pm

re: #196 TNChuckster

Piss off, jackass...

220 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:44:45pm

re: #217 commadore183

Dude, no one is saying that just raising taxes to 100% on the wealthy is going to balance the budget. Why you still repeat that is beyond me.

Because it's become the talking point du jour of the Right, now that Obama started talking tax increases and rationalizing the tax code. Telling folks that the rich can't pay for it all themselves, so the only solution will be to ask the poor and middle class to pick up more of the tax burden. And since they know that won't fly, they're trying to offer steep budget cuts as the "pain free" alternative.

221 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:45:03pm

re: #213 Obdicut

Neither side proposed the reasonable cuts I agree need to be made. Considering the crisis over proposed cuts compared to the cuts that need to be made, neither side is willing to approach the level needed.

Yeah, I don't know you well enough to be insulting you.

222 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:46:54pm

re: #221 TNChuckster

Do you know the first rule of holes?
It's "stop digging."

The second rule is
or, keep digging until you get mad enough to get banned.

223 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:47:22pm

re: #221 TNChuckster

Neither side proposed the reasonable cuts I agree need to be made. Considering the crisis over proposed cuts compared to the cuts that need to be made, neither side is willing to approach the level needed.

Yeah, I don't know you well enough to be insulting you.

OK I'll bite. List your spending cuts.

224 General Nimrod Bodfish  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:47:26pm

re: #222 Floral Giraffe

Do you know the first rule of holes?
It's "stop digging."

The second rule is
or, keep digging until you get mad enough to get banned.

Screw shovels, BRING ME MY BACKHOE!

225 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:49:03pm

re: #224 commadore183

Screw shovels, BRING ME MY BACKHOE!

Pfffttt, real hole diggers get one of these.
Image: tumblr_lf4iswwfwb1qzqvm2o1_500.jpg

226 General Nimrod Bodfish  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:49:41pm

re: #225 Varek Raith

That looks like something Megatron would disguise himself as!

227 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:50:20pm

re: #225 Varek Raith

Pfffttt, real hole diggers get one of these.
Image: tumblr_lf4iswwfwb1qzqvm2o1_500.jpg

Is that the CERN construction site?

228 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:50:32pm

re: #209 commadore183

And Obdicut's going to go Red Foreman on him (intellectually speaking) soon :P . Gonna need a proctologist and a dentist to get two feet out of him.

A friend pointed out a sign on San Pablo Avenue to me yesterday. It reads "Dental Podiatrist".

We spent some time trying to figure out what a dental podiatrist does. I think a dental podiatrist removes people's feet from their mouths when they have stuck them in too deeply to remove.

She suggested that a dental podiatrist does podiatry with his teeth.

229 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:51:44pm

re: #225 Varek Raith

Pfffttt, real hole diggers get one of these.
Image: tumblr_lf4iswwfwb1qzqvm2o1_500.jpg

I want one of those!

230 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:52:18pm

re: #221 TNChuckster

Neither side proposed the reasonable cuts I agree need to be made. Considering the crisis over proposed cuts compared to the cuts that need to be made, neither side is willing to approach the level needed.

No, you're still not getting it. That the cuts were objected to doesn't mean that greater cuts wouldn't be possible; the objections were to those cuts in particular.

Take planned parenthood. PP is very good at what it does-- which is mostly womens health, including cancer screening and giving out contraceptives. If we stopped subsidizing them, and they were not able to make up that cost, the government would lose money in all sorts of ways. More pregnancies means more use of the medical system, often by people with no insurance. No cancer screening means that cancer isn't caught early, and instead has to be attacked when it's most expensive to do so. Veneral disease takes hospital time and resources, as well.

So, if you 'cut costs' by cutting PP funding, you're actually raising costs.


Yeah, I don't know you well enough to be insulting you.

Then don't.

231 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:52:18pm

re: #229 Floral Giraffe

I want one of those!

I use one for gardening.

232 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:52:34pm

re: #228 SanFranciscoZionist

That is a mystery! Maybe just a bad sign?

233 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:55:43pm

re: #223 blueraven

There's no bait there to bite... it's up the the house and the senate to figure that out.

234 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 2:59:06pm

re: #214 TNChuckster

Oh, please. I gave you an outline that does what you claim to want that doesn't even require historical levels of taxation of those who really are rich. Now take the libertarian garbage (confiscated) out the the trash heap of history where it belongs.

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 3:01:26pm

re: #232 Floral Giraffe

That is a mystery! Maybe just a bad sign?

The two words are stacked one above the other, so, on a more serious note, we think it's probably a sign shared by two practices in the same office.

It still struck us as wonderfully funny.

236 blueraven  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 3:02:22pm

re: #233 TNChuckster

There's no bait there to bite... it's up the the house and the senate to figure that out.

"Neither side proposed the reasonable cuts I agree need to be made"

That is you comment. Just like others on the cut spending only side, you fail to be specific. Having no skin in the game is easy. Buck up!

237 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 3:17:40pm

re: #225 Varek Raith

Pfffttt, real hole diggers get one of these.
Image: tumblr_lf4iswwfwb1qzqvm2o1_500.jpg

Western KY?

238 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 3:17:48pm

re: #230 Obdicut

Don't care about planned parenthood one way or the other. I'm agnostic, and not a woman, so I'm not qualified.

We're discussing crumbs r.e. the budget.

I get you, but we could spend eternity without ever reaching agreement. Thanks though

239 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 3:20:12pm

re: #237 Decatur Deb

Western KY?

Germany.

240 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 3:21:24pm

re: #235 SanFranciscoZionist

The two words are stacked one above the other, so, on a more serious note, we think it's probably a sign shared by two practices in the same office.

It still struck us as wonderfully funny.

It is a fabulous combination!

241 TNChuckster  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 3:31:42pm

re: #164 wrenchwench

I apologize for insinuating that there was any analysis contained in your opinion.

Also, you don't have to refresh the page to see your dings. Just click the number. You can even see who gave 'em to you. (You're welcome)

Thanks for that, sorry it to so long to respond

242 hugh59  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 3:32:57pm

The public is always going to want the best benefits. They don't care who pays for it. Sadly, we are all paying for it and the cost is going up faster than our incomes are. In the end, the government will run out of money and medicare, medicaid, and social security benefits will all end up being drastically cut (if not eliminated entirely).

243 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 5:23:24pm

re: #238 TNChuckster


I get you, but we could spend eternity without ever reaching agreement. Thanks though

I'm not sure you do get me, or what you're actually disagreeing with me about.

244 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 5:23:43pm

re: #242 hugh59

What do you mean by 'run out of money'?

245 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 5:27:44pm

re: #243 Obdicut

I'm not sure you do get me, or what you're actually disagreeing with me about.

He is disagreeing with your assertion that confiscating every rich person's property and forcing them to work on chain gangs would solve all our problems.

I disagree with him. lol.

246 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 5:28:17pm

re: #243 Obdicut

GO OBDICUT!

247 jordash1212  Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:22:34pm

The rich, the rich, the rich. What irks me about this debate is the arbitrary assignment and labeling of "rich" to anyone who makes over $250,000. How can these people be put in the same bracket as someone who makes $450,000 a year, or someone who makes $3,000,000 a year? And are they any different from someone who makes $235,000 a year?

I'm all for everyone paying their dues within society, but when the mantra of "tax the wealthy" treats a hardworking professional the same as a trustfund baby who inherited his father's multi-million dollar business, then I'm a bit leery of merely raising taxes. The tax system needs restructuring, and for crying out loud impose some usage taxes! The longer we avoid these realities, the longer we will wallow in these debates while the developing world quickly gains ground.

248 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 5:23:21am

re: #247 jordash1212

I'm all in favor of creating more income brackets above $250,000. In fact, having it expressed as a function rather than in discrete brackets would be great.

249 SidewaysQuark  Thu, Apr 21, 2011 12:00:35pm

Well, far as I see it, we'll either have to eventually either A) Cut Social Security and Medicare Benefits, B) Raise Taxes, or C) Inflate the Dollar, or D) Some combination of A), B) and C).

If someone sees a way around this, please educate me.


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 Frank says:

You drank beer, you played golf, you watched football - WE EVOLVED!