Why Does the Tea Party Hate Manatees?

Florida Tea Party goes after the dreaded fiscally irresponsible manatee
Wingnuts • Views: 33,740

Teabaggers in Florida have a new target for their rage — a gentle aquatic mammal that’s not listed in the Bible.

This is not a joke.

A Citrus County tea party group has announced that it’s fighting new restrictions on boating and other human activities in Kings Bay that have been proposed by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

“We cannot elevate nature above people,” explained Edna Mattos, 63, leader of the Citrus County Tea Party Patriots, in an interview. “That’s against the Bible and the Bill of Rights.”

Federal officials “want to restrict the entire bay,” she contended. “They don’t want people here.”

Last week, Mattos, who says she has 800 members signed up on her group’s website, and other tea party members picketed outside a public hearing on the new rules. Because they weren’t allowed to bring their signs inside, she said, “my anger took over” and she sent a sharply worded e-mail to thousands of tea party members across Florida, urging them to write to Congress to block the Fish and Wildlife Service. …

Mattos said she enjoys showing off the manatees to her grandchildren, but she had little use for the Save the Manatee Club, explaining, “If some of these environmental movements had been around in the days of the dinosaurs, we’d be living in Jurassic Park now.”

That’s absurd, of course — everyone knows there are no dinosaurs in the Bible, and there were no enviro-Nazis 6,000 years ago, either.

But wait, we haven’t reached the end of the craziness yet; you see, this manatee thing is just a small part of a gigantic, sinister United Nations mind control scheme, exposed by Glenn Beck.

“We believe that (federal regulators’) aim is to control the fish and wildlife, in addition to the use of the land that surrounds this area, and the people that live here and visit. … As most of us know, this all ties in to the United Nations’ Agenda 21 and Sustainability.”

Agenda 21 is a program, adopted by the U.N. in 1992, to encourage countries around the world to promote only development that does not harm nature. Pundit Glenn Beck and other conservatives have attacked it as an attempt to impose world government’s rules on every aspect of American lives. The Citrus County tea party group’s website says Agenda 21 is “designed to make humans into livestock.”

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202 comments
1 solus  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:28:52am

Just when I though I couldn't hate teabaggers more...

One of my fondest/saddest childhood memories was a family holiday to Tallahassee when I was a kid and playing with those beautiful beasts who were covered from head to flipper in massive scars from propellors.

I think it's safe to say the next election will wipe out the American Taliban.

2 Lidane  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:28:56am

Somewhere out there, Jimmy Buffett is not pleased.

Also, these people can get bent.

3 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:29:03am
“We cannot elevate nature above people,” explained Edna Mattos, 63, leader of the Citrus County Tea Party Patriots, in an interview. “That’s against the Bible and the Bill of Rights."

Has anyone suggested "elevating" nature above people?

And aren't people part of "nature"?

And I'm really, really, really sick to death of people trying to justify everything they do (or don't want done) based on what "the Bible" says, as if they have sole proprietership of that good book and their interepretation is the ONLY right one.

4 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:30:04am

Things like this give me hope that Mitt Romney is right in betting that the GOP crazy train will be completely wrecked by the time the primaries get serious. I still think the odds are against him, plastic weasel that he is, but it's a shot and the only chance a sane Republican will have.

5 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:30:32am

re: #3 reine.de.tout

Has anyone suggested "elevating" nature above people?

And aren't people part of "nature"?

And I'm really, really, really sick to death of people trying to justify everything they do (or don't want done) based on what "the Bible" says, as if they have sole proprietership of that good book and their interepretation is the ONLY right one.

I have to repeat that, seriously, I'm just sick to death of it. "The Bible" says thus and so is not a sufficient rationale for the actions of a secular government.

6 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:30:34am
Current regulations have helped boost the manatee population from 100 to 500, so clearly they're sufficient, Mattos said. In fact, in her view, the manatee rules tie in to global development issues.

"We believe that (federal regulators') aim is to control the fish and wildlife, in addition to the use of the land that surrounds this area, and the people that live here and visit. … As most of us know, this all ties in to the United Nations' Agenda 21 and Sustainability."

Agenda 21 is a program, adopted by the U.N. in 1992, to encourage countries around the world to promote only development that does not harm nature. Pundit Glenn Beck and other conservatives have attacked it as an attempt to impose world government's rules on every aspect of American lives. The Citrus County tea party group's website says Agenda 21 is "designed to make humans into livestock."


Wow!

7 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:31:49am

Who's going to write the scripts for "Famiky Guy" now?

8 Lidane  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:32:10am

re: #3 reine.de.tout

Has anyone suggested "elevating" nature above people?

And aren't people part of "nature"?.

And what good is it to have dominion or stewardship over nature, which is what these religious nutjobs always claim they have, if you don't take care of it?

I've never understood the fundie/teabagger objections to any sort of environmental laws. Conservation is a GOOD thing.

9 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:32:29am

Crystal River? You'd think the TPers would hope for a nuke plant there. Or something.
///

10 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:32:54am

PIMF "Family Guy"

11 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:32:59am

Don't forget that the dinos were also vegetarians.
What are they so worried about?
/

12 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:33:29am

re: #5 reine.de.tout

I have to repeat that, seriously, I'm just sick to death of it. "The Bible" says thus and so is not a sufficient rationale for the actions of a secular government.

Also, nowhere in the Bible does it say 'do not protect manatees'.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say say, "Screw up the environment, for the Lord your God will get you more stuff if you break all the toys you already have."

Bleah.

13 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:33:32am

re: #11 Varek Raith

Don't forget that the dinos were also vegetarians.
What are they so worried about?
/

Manatees are too!!!

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:33:53am

re: #8 Lidane

And what good is it to have dominion or stewardship over nature, which is what these religious nutjobs always claim they have, if you don't take care of it?

I've never understood the fundie/teabagger objections to any sort of environmental laws. Conservation is a GOOD thing.

Conservation is the conservative thing to do.

15 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:34:42am

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

Conservation is the conservative thing to do.

Yes, this.

16 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:35:04am

My high skool was Manatee. Why do they want to destroy my high skool?

17 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:35:41am

Also, the Bill of Rights does not say anything about some sort of natural right to harm manatees.

18 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:35:45am

re: #8 Lidane

And what good is it to have dominion or stewardship over nature, which is what these religious nutjobs always claim they have, if you don't take care of it?

I've never understood the fundie/teabagger objections to any sort of environmental laws. Conservation is a GOOD thing.

And that too.

19 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:35:56am

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

well it was, until the 1980's and Ronaldus Maximus. Then it change to "Government bad, HULK Smash" and the rest is history. Now everything the government does is just plain bad to these morons.

20 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:38:09am

re: #6 Killgore Trout

Wow!

Humans livestock?
Granted us vampires think this, but...
Nevermind.

21 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:38:41am

Manatee cam!!! REALLY!!!

22 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:39:26am

re: #21 Cannadian Club Akbar

Manatee cam!!! REALLY!!!

Cute little guy.

23 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:39:32am

re: #19 Dreggas

"Now everything the government does is just plain bad to these morons."

Unless of course it has to do with a Woman's right to determine her reproductive health or what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their home/bedroom. Then all bets are off.

24 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:39:54am

Here's one thing I fail to understand time and again. A lot of conservatives and republicans enjoy hunting and fishing, talk to any of them and you'll hear first hand how things are changing season wise and animal wise. Yet the moment anyone attempts to do anything the preserve said environment and promote a healthy environment more conducive to good hunting and fishing these same "conservatives" scream bloody murder. You'd THINK they'd be the first ones to say "hey, something is wrong here" and try to figure out a way to fix it.

25 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:40:04am

re: #3 reine.de.tout

Has anyone suggested "elevating" nature above people?

And aren't people part of "nature"?

And I'm really, really, really sick to death of people trying to justify everything they do (or don't want done) based on what "the Bible" says, as if they have sole proprietership of that good book and their interepretation is the ONLY right one.

Regardless of whether ones believes in Christianity or not, it's a 2000 year old book written and assembled by humans in the context of their time. Even if it was 'divinely inspired', it was up to humans to write it down and inject their own biased interpretation, just like is done today (at least that's how I explain all the inhumane and hypocritical things in it) NO ONE should ever take the Bible literally.

I'd like biblical literalists to explain the First Council of Nicaea and what its point was.

26 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:40:12am

re: #22 Varek Raith

Cute little guy.

That ain't him. He'll be back.

27 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:40:27am

re: #23 Bubblehead II

forgot those :)

28 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:41:14am

I just heard about the Agenda 21 nontroversy this morning in an article about a local tea party meeting. Here are some links I found after poking around a bit.

Mother Jones

"We Don't Need None of That Smart-Growth Communism"

Grist

Tea Party reveals: ‘Sustainable Development’ is sinister attempt to destroy American Dream

The John Birch Society mouthpiece has an interview with a climate change denier, Tom DeWeese, who has been concerned about Agenda 21 for 15 years.

DeWeese: We’re almost exclusively focused right now on the issue of Agenda 21 and sustainable development. This is something, as we said, that came from the [United Nations’] Rio 1992 Earth Summit and has been slowly implemented in almost every community in the country. Now it is being more rapidly implemented in those communities. Now, after 15 years of trying to warn people what this was about, people are beginning to see that something is wrong and that this is a policy of control. Lots of people think it’s a policy of conservation and environmental protection, and that’s how it’s sold. But in fact, when you look at all aspects of it, the “social equity” aspect and “social justice,” it covers every aspect of our lives, from how our communities are developed to what you can do in your own home to control population.

Outrageous outrage!

29 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:41:31am

re: #26 Cannadian Club Akbar

That ain't him. He'll be back.

Wait!! My bad. Tank is bigger then I remember.

30 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:41:48am

re: #9 Cannadian Club Akbar

Crystal River? You'd think the TPers would hope for a nuke plant there. Or something.
///

There is a plant nearby, nuke I think. The manatees hang around the warmed water from the cooling towers sometime in their annual gig. There's a rescue center in the Homosassa River St Pk.

[Link: www.floridasprings.org...]

31 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:42:31am

re: #25 Spocomptonite

Spectator I: I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".
Mrs. Gregory: Aha, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
Gregory: Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.

- Monty Python's Life Of Brian.

32 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:42:55am

re: #30 Decatur Deb

I know. They might shut it down and build a new one, IIRC.

33 Bulworth  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:43:23am

I really resent the teabaggers use of "patriot" anything in their stupid name.

34 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:44:09am

re: #31 Dreggas

Spectator I: I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".
Mrs. Gregory: Aha, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
Gregory: Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.

- Monty Python's Life Of Brian.

Blessed are The Pythons.

35 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:44:55am
The Citrus County tea party group’s website says Agenda 21 is “designed to make humans into livestock.”
Youtube Video
36 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:45:01am

re: #1 solus

I think it's safe to say the next election will wipe out the American Taliban.

Why would you believe that? If anything, they are ascendant.

37 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:45:09am

re: #33 Bulworth

I really resent the teabaggers use of "patriot" anything in their stupid name.

Image: DSCF7305.jpg

38 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:45:38am

The more they back up their positions, the more they come across as certifiably insane.

39 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:45:55am

Oh, and seriously, fuck the bible. Fuck it raw.

40 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:47:17am

It's something being pushed by Glenn Beck. Enough said.

41 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:47:42am

This is no surprise. It's all GOP think. The same mindset that's been chopping away at the Everglades, part of our nation's wetlands, under Republican federal and state (both) administrations (i.e. Jeb Bush). Clinton managed to earmark billions for saving wildlife and protecting lands in the later part of his administration, including shoring up the Louisiana coast, but the money for all of those programs was diverted when Bush took office.

It's what they do and it's horrifying.

42 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:47:51am

re: #39 Fozzie Bear

Oh, and seriously, fuck the bible. Fuck it raw.

You almost sound like you're saying stories shepherds from one small geographic region told each other thousands of years ago might not be the final truth for humanity.

43 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:48:58am

re: #39 Fozzie Bear

Oh, and seriously, fuck the bible. Fuck it raw.

The bible is not at fault because certain morons don't know how to read it.

44 General Nimrod Bodfish  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:49:03am

re: #39 Fozzie Bear

Oh, and seriously, fuck the bible. Fuck it raw.

What if I got it pregnant? Will I be forced to marry it?

45 nines09  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:49:24am

Anything with Glenn Beck, Tea Party Leader, UN and agenda mentioned is sure to be a mindbender.
Next up; How to mount your Bible on a 6 foot pole and pound a manatee senseless.

46 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:51:37am

It's a little known fact that Jesus hated manatees even more than unproductive fig trees, and that Pontius Pilate was a camouflaged sea cow commando sent as an instrument of his people's unholy wrath. Also Noah's Ark was a very large cigarette boat.

47 Bulworth  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:51:50am

It's almost as if these people hate anything of beauty. Their anti-environment, anti-nature jihad is basically bad old fashioned materialism. And I thought Christianity, at least the Christianity I was raised in, was against that. Oh well.

48 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:52:10am

re: #46 goddamnedfrank

It's a little known fact that Jesus hated manatees even more than unproductive fig trees, and that Pontius Pilate was a camouflaged sea cow commando sent as an instrument of his people's unholy wrath. Also Noah's Ark was a very large cigarette boat.

Noah was an environmentalist weenie.

49 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:52:13am

re: #43 marjoriemoon

The bible is not at fault because certain morons don't know how to read it.

I've come to the conclusion that mentioning the bible in any conversation save an explicitly religious one immediately disqualifies the speaker from being sentient.

50 Ericus58  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:52:48am

re: #39 Fozzie Bear

Oh, and seriously, fuck the bible. Fuck it raw.

Throttle back, Big Rig.

51 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:53:00am

I used to live across from the Miami river. Every fall, a family of manatees used to hang out in the area because they'd eat the vegetation from the brackish water. It was a family of 3, a mom, dad and baby. The baby had marks on its back from boats running over it, but it survived and grew up to have its own family. We knew this because we'd recognize the scars every year he'd come to the river!

We'd hand feed them heads of lettuce, yum. They really are remarkable creatures.

52 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:53:07am

re: #43 marjoriemoon

The bible is not at fault because certain morons don't know how to read it.

I counter that certain morons didn't know how to write it, either. Was all that slavery, sexism, killing, and world-drowning really God's will, and how does it make him benevolent?

53 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:53:29am

Hello All-
Latest person here to piss me off by being a mindless slave to talking points, posting comments without relevance or contect, and not taking time to post a single page;
And the winner is....

lobengula!

Step right up to the mike and explain why you're such a prick, son.

54 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:53:42am

re: #43 marjoriemoon

The bible is not at fault because certain morons don't know how to read it.

The bible is not at fault because it's a book, and can't be at fault.

People can be at fault.

People who take the book literally and/or use their special interpretation of it to be magically correct are at fault.

55 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:54:42am

re: #52 Spocomptonite

I counter that certain morons didn't know how to write it, either. Was all that slavery, sexism, killing, and world-drowning really God's will, and how does it make him benevolent?

Seriously, it's a collection of morally bankrupt fables, and everyone seems all surprised when those who read it the most carefully do crazy shit. It shouldn't be surprising.

56 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:54:50am

re: #53 imp_62

Hello All-
Latest person here to piss me off by being a mindless slave to talking points, posting comments without relevance or contect, and not taking time to post a single page;
And the winner is...

lobengula!

Step right up to the mike and explain why you're such a prick, son.

It skulks in the dark alleys of the pages, it never comes out into the broad and well-patrolled main street.

57 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:55:02am

Citing the Bible as scientific evidence is just as factually accurate as citing Harry Potter or Twilight as scientific evidence.

58 Ericus58  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:55:05am

Let's not go trashing a Holy Book to what - a Billion folks? Many who are not lunatics?

How about the Torah? Koran?
Where does that line of thinking end?

59 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:55:28am

Anonymous sources indicate these particular manatees are attempting to introduce a special form of underwater Sharia law...

60 Bulworth  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:55:47am
“We cannot elevate nature above people,”

Although their belief system likely allows for the eternal torment of most of the trillions of people who have ever lived in this world in the fires of hell.

61 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:56:03am

re: #52 Spocomptonite

I counter that certain morons didn't know how to write it, either. Was all that slavery, sexism, killing, and world-drowning really God's will, and how does it make him benevolent?

God is far more merciful than vengeful, but the bible I read is kinda different from others, so it's probably not a topic worth getting into.

62 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:56:50am

re: #51 marjoriemoon

I used to live across from the Miami river. Every fall, a family of manatees used to hang out in the area because they'd eat the vegetation from the brackish water. It was a family of 3, a mom, dad and baby. The baby had marks on its back from boats running over it, but it survived and grew up to have its own family. We knew this because we'd recognize the scars every year he'd come to the river!

We'd hand feed them heads of lettuce, yum. They really are remarkable creatures.

A few years ago at Disney World, they had a young manatee that was born there. It looked strange because it was the only one I had seen without gouges or scars.

63 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:56:52am

re: #58 Ericus58

It's just a book. Just. A. Book. The holy bit is just various peoples' mental illness showing.

I also am not so fond of the 3rd edition of the O.E.D. Fuck it too. Raw.

64 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:57:05am

re: #56 Alouette

I had never even seen him here before until he posted an utterly ridiculous non-sequitur on my Mumbai blast page. Been here since March, -103 Karma and nothing clever to say. Oh, well.

65 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:57:32am

re: #54 Obdicut

The bible is not at fault because it's a book, and can't be at fault.

People can be at fault.

People who take the book literally and/or use their special interpretation of it to be magically correct are at fault.

I think that's what I said!

66 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:57:54am

re: #61 marjoriemoon

God is far more merciful than vengeful, but the bible I read is kinda different from others, so it's probably not a topic worth getting into.

Do you have the illustrated version with the naughty pictures of Eve?

67 allegro  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:57:57am

re: #41 marjoriemoon

This is no surprise. It's all GOP think. The same mindset that's been chopping away at the Everglades, part of our nation's wetlands, under Republican federal and state (both) administrations (i.e. Jeb Bush). Clinton managed to earmark billions for saving wildlife and protecting lands in the later part of his administration, including shoring up the Louisiana coast, but the money for all of those programs was diverted when Bush took office.

It's what they do and it's horrifying.

Having been a biologist with the FWS when James "The Rapture is Coming!" Watts was head of Interior under Reagan, I can positively attest to this disgusting mind-set and the destruction these fuckwits cause. Reading this post prompted such energetic expletives that I scared my poor dogs into hiding.

68 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:58:51am

re: #65 marjoriemoon

I think that's what I said!

I think some people are sentenced here for 'community service'.

69 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:59:00am

re: #59 dragonfire1981

Anonymous sources indicate these particular manatees are attempting to introduce a special form of underwater Sharia law...

FEAR ME INFIDEL!!!
Image: manateeb.jpg

70 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:59:01am

re: #42 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You almost sound like you're saying stories shepherds from one small geographic region told each other thousands of years ago might not be the final truth for humanity.

But it might be the final truth for humanatees

71 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:59:45am

re: #67 allegro

I think we need to bear in mind that what these fuckwits say is not driven by inductive interpretation of the Bible, but rather uses the Bible as cover for their anti-social, destructive and selfish behaviour and attitudes.

72 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:59:46am

re: #70 SpaceJesus

But it might be the final truth for humanatees

win!

73 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 10:59:51am

re: #68 Decatur Deb

I think some people are sentenced here for 'community service'.

OOPS-- that's to Alouette's #64.

74 Ericus58  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:00:22am

re: #63 Fozzie Bear

Religious folks are just mentally ill?
Really?

75 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:00:29am

Manatee!

Gaffigan...

USA women win, btw!

76 lgffan  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:00:33am

re: #39 Fozzie Bear

Could not have said it better myself.

77 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:00:42am

re: #73 Decatur Deb

OOPS-- that's to Alouette's #64.

Still wrong lol - that's my #64

78 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:01:04am

re: #74 Ericus58

I believe so, yes. Sadly, that means most of humanity is a bit "off". Luckily, it's curable.

79 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:01:06am

re: #65 marjoriemoon

I think that's what I said!

well, I was taking issue with the 'certain morons don't know how to read it'.

Nobody knows how to read it. Or rather, there is no way to read it. It's an edited collection of stuff extending over many authors and thousands of years. There are multifarious ways to read and interpret each section, and no way can be more or less correct than another, just more or less defensible-- both in lit crit terms and ethics and morality.

80 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:01:40am

re: #77 imp_62

Well, hell.

81 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:01:55am

re: #55 Fozzie Bear

Seriously, it's a collection of morally bankrupt fables, and everyone seems all surprised when those who read it the most carefully do crazy shit. It shouldn't be surprising.

I have issue with what this might possibly mean. I know several people who've gone through seminary (good seminary), and I think a truly in-depth education about not only the bible, but of how it was written and the history of how it came to be (3 centuries after the death of Christ) can really deter a literal mindset of the bible as the direct word of God.
If by 'carefully', you mean quote mining to support their own preconceptions, then I'd agree. Those who read the bible (or any religious text, of any religion) with the least critical thought are ones who are the most dangerous.

82 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:02:26am

re: #64 imp_62

I had never even seen him here before until he posted an utterly ridiculous non-sequitur on my Mumbai blast page. Been here since March, -103 Karma and nothing clever to say. Oh, well.

It's a stupid little fuckball not even worth a downding.

83 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:02:26am

re: #66 imp_62

Do you have the illustrated version with the naughty pictures of Eve?

LOL

I have this awesome book I got at a yard sale for $.50. Levi Strauss had a contest back in the early 70s...send us photos of your funky cool jeans and we'll print it. And they did. Painted jeans, embroidered jeans, feathers, crotcheted, knitted, too many designs to say. It's on my coffee table and I look at it for craft inspiration all the time.

There is a pretty big section on biblical scenes. One of my very favorites is an apple tree, cross-stitched up the leg with Adam and Eve (both nude) on either side. It's extraordinary.

84 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:02:48am

re: #79 Obdicut

well, I was taking issue with the 'certain morons don't know how to read it'.

Nobody knows how to read it. Or rather, there is no way to read it. It's an edited collection of stuff extending over many authors and thousands of years. There are multifarious ways to read and interpret each section, and no way can be more or less correct than another, just more or less defensible-- both in lit crit terms and ethics and morality.

Given that, anyone who cites the Bible as the undisputed word of God is insane.

85 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:03:04am

re: #79 Obdicut

well, I was taking issue with the 'certain morons don't know how to read it'.

Nobody knows how to read it. Or rather, there is no way to read it. It's an edited collection of stuff extending over many authors and thousands of years. There are multifarious ways to read and interpret each section, and no way can be more or less correct than another, just more or less defensible-- both in lit crit terms and ethics and morality.


Well, it is or it isn't .. you sort of beg your own point here. The thing with religion and holy texts is that people tend to make of them what they will. Only God is perfect; the texts and how we interpret them are entirely imperfect.

86 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:03:20am

re: #67 allegro

Having been a biologist with the FWS when James "The Rapture is Coming!" Watts was head of Interior under Reagan, I can positively attest to this disgusting mind-set and the destruction these fuckwits cause. Reading this post prompted such energetic expletives that I scared my poor dogs into hiding.

LOL! Ooo give them a treat now.

Yea, I was going to find some links, but I'm glad you backed that up for me. It's not a secret, of course.

87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:03:21am

Check out the avatar! Woo hoo!

heh...

Appropriate, no?

88 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:03:51am

re: #81 Spocomptonite

Or critical thought but starting from crazy axioms which they never examine, too.

But otherwise agreed with you-- my friend Robert Alter has studied the Old Testament more carefully than almost anyone else-- he's a world-class scholar at UC Berkeley. He's extremely moderate, and not at all dangerous unless you hand in a paper late.

89 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:04:55am

re: #71 imp_62

I think we need to bear in mind that what these fuckwits say is not driven by inductive interpretation of the Bible, but rather uses the Bible as cover for their anti-social, destructive and selfish behaviour and attitudes.

Bible Shmibel. They'll come up with any old crazy crap to justify themselves. Like Allegro said, it's been going on for decades.

90 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:05:01am

re: #87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Check out the avatar! Woo hoo!

heh...

Appropriate, no?

Ding whore!

91 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:05:08am

re: #87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Check out the avatar! Woo hoo!

heh...

Appropriate, no?

You clearly have way too much time on your hands...
Yeah, I'm jealous ;]

92 allegro  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:05:16am

re: #71 imp_62

I think we need to bear in mind that what these fuckwits say is not driven by inductive interpretation of the Bible, but rather uses the Bible as cover for their anti-social, destructive and selfish behaviour and attitudes.

You know what? I don't give a flying fuck what their reasons are for their unconscionable behavior and entitled beliefs that do so much REAL HARM.

93 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:05:19am

Somebody needs to arm those manatees. Conservatives versus angry sea cows with lazers on their heads.

94 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:05:44am

re: #85 imp_62

Well, it is or it isn't .. you sort of beg your own point here.

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean I should entertain the idea that the book was written by a magical being I don't believe in?

If so. I understand other people believe that. It doesn't make me think any less of them, since I think the tendency to be religious is not a sign of mental illness but just part of our creative faculties, and it's only through certain accidents that people become atheists.

But that doesn't mean I actually have to attach credibility to the ideas of religion.

95 calochortus  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:06:10am

re: #67 allegro

Having been a biologist with the FWS when James "The Rapture is Coming!" Watts was head of Interior under Reagan, I can positively attest to this disgusting mind-set and the destruction these fuckwits cause. Reading this post prompted such energetic expletives that I scared my poor dogs into hiding.

I have been wondering ever since James Watt's stupid remarks were made-why would God be angry if we haven't used everything up by the time He returns? I don't recall that anywhere in the Bible.

96 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:06:20am

re: #93 SpaceJesus

Somebody needs to arm those manatees. Conservatives versus angry sea cows with lazers on their heads.

Manatees have a weird extra joint in their flippers and a split upper lip. Maybe we can weaponize those.

97 Ericus58  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:06:21am

re: #78 Fozzie Bear

I believe so, yes. Sadly, that means most of humanity is a bit "off". Luckily, it's curable.

Luckily, you don't to get to make the determination as to "who" and enacting a cure.

98 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:06:35am

re: #85 imp_62

Well, it is or it isn't .. you sort of beg your own point here. The thing with religion and holy texts is that people tend to make of them what they will. Only God is perfect; the texts and how we interpret them are entirely imperfect.

The bolded statement is what I see as the genesis of at least 50% of humanity's problems.

99 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:06:46am

re: #96 Obdicut

Manatees have a weird extra joint in their flippers and a split upper lip. Maybe we can weaponize those.

Manatees with laser beams!

100 blueraven  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:07:07am

re: #39 Fozzie Bear

Oh, and seriously, fuck the bible. Fuck it raw.

There is nothing wrong with the Bible. It is how people interpret it and use it to advance their own cause that is the problem.

101 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:07:13am

re: #92 allegro

You know what? I don't give a flying fuck what their reasons are for their unconscionable behavior and entitled beliefs that do so much REAL HARM.

You may not care about the reasons which drive their beliefs and actions; but when anti-social action is clothed in religious belief, it becomes even more dangerous and of concern to us all.

102 BongCrodny  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:07:35am

...

103 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:07:39am

re: #99 Alouette

Manatees with laser beams!

Maybe the manatees should just pay off some killer whales to come in and fuck up the humans.

104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:07:45am

re: #88 Obdicut

I've never met anyone who I disagreed with as much, with but wanted to hang out with, as you.

*crushing awkwardly long man-hug*

105 mr.fusion  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:07:59am

re: #99 Alouette

Manatees with laser beams!

I believe you mean "FREAKING manatees with FREAKING laser beams on their heads!!!"

106 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:08:24am

re: #102 BongCrodny

...

!!!

107 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:08:39am

re: #96 Obdicut

I'd prefer to keep that unused, so the manatees can flip off the tea party people as they incinerate their lawnchairs and misspelled signs with beams of high energy.

108 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:09:04am

re: #94 Obdicut

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean I should entertain the idea that the book was written by a magical being I don't believe in?

If so. I understand other people believe that. It doesn't make me think any less of them, since I think the tendency to be religious is not a sign of mental illness but just part of our creative faculties, and it's only through certain accidents that people become atheists.

But that doesn't mean I actually have to attach credibility to the ideas of religion.

You absolutely do not; my point was only that you partially subsume your response in your statement. Just a structural point; not taking issue with your right to your opinion!

109 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:09:08am

re: #97 Ericus58

Luckily, you don't to get to make the determination as to "who" and enacting a cure.

Oh, yes I do. There just isn't much I can do about it apart from watch the crazy metastasize in predictable ways.

110 BongCrodny  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:09:10am

re: #58 Ericus58

Let's not go trashing a Holy Book to what - a Billion folks? Many who are not lunatics?

How about the Torah? Koran?
Where does that line of thinking end?


The problem is that the non-lunatic majority is letting the lunatic minority do all their talking for them.

111 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:09:14am

re: #105 mr.fusion

I believe you mean "FREAKING manatees with FREAKING laser beams on their heads!!!"

No, I meant FREAKING manatees genetically engineered evolved to shoot FREAKING laser beams out of their FREAKING eyeballs!

112 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:10:42am

re: #61 marjoriemoon

God is far more merciful than vengeful, but the bible I read is kinda different from others, so it's probably not a topic worth getting into.

Which version?

Disclaimer: I don't mean to be offensive, and I didn't intend my statement to mean that that bad stuff is all that's in the bible. But it is a part of it. I think it speaks less about what Christianity's God is like, and more to what the humans who really wrote the bible were like at that point in human history.

That said, I'm strangely curious about Religion and how some things become canonical and others don't. The Council of Nicaea is just fascinating to me, and I don't think many lay Christians even know about it, sadly.

113 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:11:29am

re: #104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've never met anyone who I disagreed with as much, with but wanted to hang out with, as you.

*crushing awkwardly long man-hug*

You know where I am, man, come on by.

I'm a good vegetarian cook, too, and so's my wife.

114 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:11:35am

re: #79 Obdicut

well, I was taking issue with the 'certain morons don't know how to read it'.

Nobody knows how to read it. Or rather, there is no way to read it. It's an edited collection of stuff extending over many authors and thousands of years. There are multifarious ways to read and interpret each section, and no way can be more or less correct than another, just more or less defensible-- both in lit crit terms and ethics and morality.

The Torah has not been edited. It's the same as it was 1000s of years ago. The interpretations are the ones that have changed. Changed not a good word. Learning is better, about deeper thoughts, deeper meanings. It's not a contest to be "right". Tho I think some people treat it that way.

I don't see anything wrong with my original statement. You can take the text and screw it around to mean any old stupid thing. That doesn't make it right.

115 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:11:42am

I'm addicted to this snootycam. So freaking cute.

116 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:11:48am

re: #98 Fozzie Bear

The bolded statement is what I see as the genesis of at least 50% of humanity's problems.

Really? I see the problem in the bit that follows. People are the problem; leaning on perceived divine intent and imagining (or worse - believing) that God is telling us to hate gays, kill doctors and destroy the environment: that's the real issue.

117 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:11:56am

re: #108 imp_62

You absolutely do not; my point was only that you partially subsume your response in your statement. Just a structural point; not taking issue with your right to your opinion!

I'm sorry, I can't see the subsumation you're referring to.

118 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:12:18am

re: #111 Alouette

No, I meant FREAKING manatees genetically engineered evolved to shoot FREAKING laser beams out of their FREAKING eyeballs!

Unfortunately, all they have is a tank full of gentle cuttlefish...

Youtube Video
119 Ericus58  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:12:42am

Wambach helps USA to reach final

USA reached their third World Cup final after withstanding sustained pressure to beat France 3-1 in Moenchengladbach

[Link: uk.eurosport.yahoo.com...]

120 allegro  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:13:57am

re: #101 imp_62

You may not care about the reasons which drive their beliefs and actions; but when anti-social action is clothed in religious belief, it becomes even more dangerous and of concern to us all.

You are seriously pushing me into expressing thoughts about religion that would likely get me banned. I will simply say this: religion, Christianity in particular, is the single most destructive force to ever happen on this planet.

121 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:14:03am

re: #58 Ericus58

Let's not go trashing a Holy Book to what - a Billion folks? Many who are not lunatics?

How about the Torah? Koran?
Where does that line of thinking end?

Thank you.

122 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:14:05am

Image: header.gif

The electrons orbiting the Gadsden snake confuse me.

123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:14:36am

re: #119 Ericus58

Hope "Freakin'" Solo

Boys? You're welcome.

124 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:14:50am

re: #116 imp_62

Really? I see the problem in the bit that follows. People are the problem; leaning on perceived divine intent and imagining (or worse - believing) that God is telling us to hate gays, kill doctors and destroy the environment: that's the real issue.

If you don't believe in a fictional perfect divinity, none of this makes any sense at all. Actually, if you don't believe in God, people who do seem creepy and a little scary, because they don't sound 100% sane.

125 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:14:57am

re: #117 Obdicut

I'm sorry, I can't see the subsumation you're referring to.

Your statement that the Bible is a serious of independent contributions over time seems to me to fit better into your response to the issue of religious zealotry than in the framing of the issue itself. Anyway - just a thought. I don't have a ton of time to discuss semantics (actual semantics - not meant as a diss) as I am working against a deadline...

126 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:15:16am

re: #120 allegro

You are seriously pushing me into expressing thoughts about religion that would likely get me banned. I will simply say this: religion, Christianity in particular, is the single most destructive force to ever happen on this planet.

Amen.

127 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:15:27am

re: #84 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Given that, anyone who cites the Bible as the undisputed word of God is insane.

Yes. It's neither undisputed nor the actual word. Jesus didn't speak English, yo. English didn't even exist when the bible was compiled.

128 BongCrodny  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:15:45am

Maybe we could get a manatee to go on Fox and give their side of the story.

"Hannnity and Manatee" would be ratings gold.

129 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:16:08am

re: #112 Spocomptonite

Which version?

Disclaimer: I don't mean to be offensive, and I didn't intend my statement to mean that that bad stuff is all that's in the bible. But it is a part of it. I think it speaks less about what Christianity's God is like, and more to what the humans who really wrote the bible were like at that point in human history.

That said, I'm strangely curious about Religion and how some things become canonical and others don't. The Council of Nicaea is just fascinating to me, and I don't think many lay Christians even know about it, sadly.

Well, I'm Jewish so we study different bibles.

130 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:18:36am

re: #120 allegro

You are seriously pushing me into expressing thoughts about religion that would likely get me banned. I will simply say this: religion, Christianity in particular, is the single most destructive force to ever happen on this planet.

On my Mumbai page in the last comment I link to a study on religious charitable giving. Religion is not destructive sui generis. People are. If it wasn't God, Allah or Vishnu they said they were killing for, it would be cthulhu or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

131 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:19:56am

re: #127 Spocomptonite

Yes. It's neither undisputed nor the actual word. Jesus didn't speak English, yo. English didn't even exist when the bible was compiled.

Bullshit. I watched the 10 Commandments and they all spoke English in it.

132 aagcobb  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:20:04am

Everyone knows the Manatees, brazen hussies that they are, are the basis of meremaid stories told by drunk, lonely sailors with bad eyesight. They must die for their sins./

133 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:22:19am

re: #130 imp_62

On my Mumbai page in the last comment I link to a study on religious charitable giving. Religion is not destructive sui generis. People are. If it wasn't God, Allah or Vishnu they said they were killing for, it would be cthulhu or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I agree that people have a tendency to manufacture gods to worship. I just think that, as a species, we need to recognize this process as an unwell state of mental health before we can begin to deal with this magical thinking as the problem that it is.

134 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:23:20am

re: #133 Fozzie Bear

Why do you think it's an unwell state, though?

Wouldn't the pervasiveness indicate it was kind of normal?

135 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:23:36am

re: #132 aagcobb

Everyone knows the Manatees, brazen hussies that they are, are the basis of meremaid stories told by drunk, lonely sailors with bad eyesight. They must die for their sins./

I think those were the days when Rubenisk was preferable.

136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:23:38am

re: #120 allegro

Gosh. Pretty harsh.

A group of kids from my church are now in the Appalachian mountains... ready to unleash the all-encompassing destructive power of Christianity... fixing houses of elderly poor folks.

137 makeitstop  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:25:55am

Isn't this sweet?

Image: no-smile-4-u.jpg

138 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:27:12am

re: #134 Obdicut

Why do you think it's an unwell state, though?

Wouldn't the pervasiveness indicate it was kind of normal?

I would think it is definitely prevalent to the point of being the condition of the majority. So is gingivitis, and in centuries past, intestinal parasites.

I think it is an unwell state, because it causes those afflicted with it to believe all kinds of impossible things, and then act upon those beliefs as though they were true, and predictive. So, you get suicide bombers, and jehovah's witnesses. Very bad things.

139 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:27:53am

re: #134 Obdicut

Why do you think it's an unwell state, though?

Wouldn't the pervasiveness indicate it was kind of normal?

Normal does not denote healthy.

140 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:28:38am

re: #130 imp_62

On my Mumbai page in the last comment I link to a study on religious charitable giving. Religion is not destructive sui generis. People are. If it wasn't God, Allah or Vishnu they said they were killing for, it would be cthulhu or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Once we get the manpower, we'll show all the other religions what real Holy Wars look like.

///
Seriously though, I don't think anyone has to worry about wars being fought over a parody religion. Maybe a parody war...

141 CarleeCork  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:28:54am

re: #133 Fozzie Bear

I agree that people have a tendency to manufacture gods to worship. I just think that, as a species, we need to recognize this process as an unwell state of mental health before we can begin to deal with this magical thinking as the problem that it is.

Flight From Death: Quest for Immortality is a film that deals with this subject. It's available for streaming on Netflix. It's based on research by Pulitzer Prize-winning author Ernest Becker.

142 darthstar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:29:48am

re: #132 aagcobb

Everyone knows the Manatees, brazen hussies that they are, are the basis of meremaid stories told by drunk, lonely sailors with bad eyesight. They must die for their sins./

You'd have to be really drunk and lonely to want to bang a manatee.

143 allegro  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:29:52am

re: #136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gosh. Pretty harsh.

A group of kids from my church are now in the Appalachian mountains... ready to unleash the all-encompassing destructive power of Christianity... fixing houses of elderly poor folks.

This is admirable and I applaud their efforts. They do not, however, negate the entitled mindset that is a basic premise of Christianity that humans have the right to be lords of the planet and do whatever their desires of the moment dictate. I know, I know, stewards and all. How well has that been working?

I will compare this mindset to the Native American belief systems that teach that humans are a part of the environment and must live in harmony with it and the other creatures we share it with. To foul and poison our home is unthinkable. God won't fix it.

144 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:30:00am

re: #141 CarleeCork

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out. Unfortunately, I cancelled Netflix, but I bet I can find it somewhere.

145 darthstar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:30:52am

re: #137 makeitstop

Isn't this sweet?

Image: no-smile-4-u.jpg

Hilarious...well, smiling can lead to dancing.

146 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:31:53am

re: #143 allegro

Only god can destroy the world and end humanatee, don't you read the good book? We can do whatever we want to the Earth because we can't end it.

147 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:32:04am

re: #138 Fozzie Bear


I think it is an unwell state, because it causes those afflicted with it to believe all kinds of impossible things, and then act upon those beliefs as though they were true, and predictive. So, you get suicide bombers, and jehovah's witnesses. Very bad things.

You know that's the condition of the human brain in regards to thinks like statistics, prediction of future events, etc? By that definition, everyone on earth is mentally unwell. Most people believing a coin flip affects the next coin flip.

148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:32:12am

Okay... Japanese vs Sweden.

The Japanese are certainly the sentimental favorites.

The folks over there certainly need something to cheer about.

149 BongCrodny  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:32:22am

re: #140 Spocomptonite

Once we get the manpower, we'll show all the other religions what real Holy Wars look like.

///
Seriously though, I don't think anyone has to worry about wars being fought over a parody religion. Maybe a parody war...


...and The Onion will be right there on the front lines to cover it!

150 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:32:44am

re: #148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I like the title on the article about the Japan Sweden game.

"Japan fears 'Swedish legs'"

151 allegro  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:32:53am

re: #146 SpaceJesus

Only god can destroy the world and end humanatee, don't you read the good book? We can do whatever we want to the Earth because we can't end it.

I agree that we will unlikely end the Earth. We are successfully ending many other species and are trying really, really hard to end ourselves.

152 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:33:19am

re: #8 Lidane

And what good is it to have dominion or stewardship over nature, which is what these religious nutjobs always claim they have, if you don't take care of it?

I've never understood the fundie/teabagger objections to any sort of environmental laws. Conservation is a GOOD thing.

Well, the Lord is coming back soon, anyway. So it doesn't matter. /

153 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:33:24am

re: #133 Fozzie Bear

I agree that people have a tendency to manufacture gods to worship. I just think that, as a species, we need to recognize this process as an unwell state of mental health before we can begin to deal with this magical thinking as the problem that it is.

We probably won't completely agree on this one. I believe in God; I also believe that people have a terminally fucked-up relationship to Her/Him and that what passes as worship and religion today is close to nonsensical hoodoo.

154 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:33:46am

re: #151 allegro

I agree that we will unlikely end the Earth. We are successfully ending many other species and are trying really, really hard to end ourselves.

But we can't end ourselves, only god can.

155 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:33:56am

re: #139 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Normal does not denote healthy.

I'm an atheist. I think I have a distinct advantage in figuring out some things beacuse of it; I've effectively walled off a whole set of possible explanations that I never have to waste time considering.

That doesn't mean that being religious, and considering those impossible explanations, is unhealthy.

156 Bulworth  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:34:02am

re: #123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hope "Freakin'" Solo

I loves me some Hope Solo.

Boys? You're welcome.

157 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:34:24am

re: #152 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

No, kinda booked for a while.

158 Bulworth  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:35:01am

Sorry, another quote FAIL.

159 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:35:53am

re: #143 allegro

This is admirable and I applaud their efforts. They do not, however, negate the entitled mindset that is a basic premise of Christianity that humans have the right to be lords of the planet and do whatever their desires of the moment dictate. I know, I know, stewards and all. How well has that been working?

I will compare this mindset to the Native American belief systems that teach that humans are a part of the environment and must live in harmony with it and the other creatures we share it with. To foul and poison our home is unthinkable. God won't fix it.

Mmmm in theory. I know a lot of N.A. folks that don't give a crap about the environment, human, animal or mineral.

Christianity is worlds away from what it was and there are plenty of Christian groups who do wonderful things to help the planet and others, inspired by to do good works from a belief in God. There's nothing wrong with that.

160 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:39:09am

re: #25 Spocomptonite

Regardless of whether ones believes in Christianity or not, it's a 2000 year old book written and assembled by humans in the context of their time. Even if it was 'divinely inspired', it was up to humans to write it down and inject their own biased interpretation, just like is done today (at least that's how I explain all the inhumane and hypocritical things in it) NO ONE should ever take the Bible literally.

I'd like biblical literalists to explain the First Council of Nicaea and what its point was.

A lot of them, like the Churches of Christ get around it by being generally anti-creed. Ex: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

161 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:39:58am

re: #155 Obdicut

I'm an atheist. I think I have a distinct advantage in figuring out some things beacuse of it; I've effectively walled off a whole set of possible explanations that I never have to waste time considering.

That doesn't mean that being religious, and considering those impossible explanations, is unhealthy.

The problem is they aren't just considering them, they're embracing them, casting aside any facts which counter them, then going on a witch hunt to find anyone who disagrees with them.

162 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:41:14am

re: #161 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The problem is they aren't just considering them, they're embracing them, casting aside any facts which counter them, then going on a witch hunt to find anyone who disagrees with them.

Some are. Some aren't. Classifying the ones who aren't with the ones who are is a very large mistake.

163 CarleeCork  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:41:59am

I believe there is a creative force at work in the Universe. I also believe that when we die there might be a release of energy, but I believe we turn to dust like every other living thing does when it ceases to live.

If there is a "god" I don't believe anyone knows his/her mind. I believe religion was created by men to explain things they didn't understand.

164 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:42:23am

re: #155 Obdicut

I'm an atheist. I think I have a distinct advantage in figuring out some things beacuse of it; I've effectively walled off a whole set of possible explanations that I never have to waste time considering.

That doesn't mean that being religious, and considering those impossible explanations, is unhealthy.

Considering impossible things isn't unhealthy. Being absolutely convinced that impossible things are true, and fervently believing it is your duty to act on these beliefs, and poison as many other peoples' minds with unreason as possible is not only unhealthy on an individual level, but destructive on a societal level.

I choose to dismiss fervently religious people as slightly less than sentient, rather than despise them. If it is a form of mental illness, after all, then it isn't an issue of fault. As you implied above, atheists have a distinct advantage in the realm of logic and reason. They don't have to waste time considering impossibilities. Atheists are healthier, mentally.

165 darthstar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:43:39am

re: #163 CarleeCork

If there is a "god" I don't believe anyone knows his/her mind. I believe religion was created by men to explain things they didn't understand.


Bingo. God is merely a metaphor for the self, and an out for explaining the unexplainable. He/she also makes a good campaign tool for politicians.

166 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:44:16am

re: #162 Obdicut

Some are. Some aren't. Classifying the ones who aren't with the ones who are is a very large mistake.

I think they're delusional, with some being dangerously so.

167 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:44:28am

re: #163 CarleeCork

I believe there is a creative force at work in the Universe. I also believe that when we die there might be a release of energy, but I believe we turn to dust like every other living thing does when it ceases to live.

If there is a "god" I don't believe anyone knows his/her mind. I believe religion was created by men to explain things they didn't understand.

What a wonderful opinion! Would you like to tie yourself to the stake, or do you need some help?
//

I shudder to think how an inveterate teabagger wold respond to the opinions being voiced in this thread. That is the part that really scares me: The likelihood of fascistoid thought control increasing with every post they win, with every "conservative" Justice placed on the SCOTUS.

168 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:44:37am

re: #165 darthstar

I think the primary reason the idea of God is so prevalent is really, really simple. People don't want to die, and have an extremely hard time accepting that they will. Everything else flows from that.

169 allegro  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:44:46am

re: #165 darthstar

Bingo. God is merely a metaphor for the self, and an out for explaining the unexplainable and excusing the inexcusable.

He/she also makes a good campaign tool for politicians.

Finished the thought.

170 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:46:18am

re: #163 CarleeCork

I believe there is a creative force at work in the Universe. I also believe that when we die there might be a release of energy, but I believe we turn to dust like every other living thing does when it ceases to live.

If there is a "god" I don't believe anyone knows his/her mind. I believe religion was created by men to explain things they didn't understand.

The statement "we were created in the image of God" isn't a physical image. It means that we were given a mind that is able to rationalize, think, learn, create and make choices (free will) beyond just acting on instinct. That is the image we share with God; the mind of God is the mind that we mirror and that no other living being has. Or so is what that statement means...

171 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:47:30am

re: #133 Fozzie Bear

I agree that people have a tendency to manufacture gods to worship. I just think that, as a species, we need to recognize this process as an unwell state of mental health before we can begin to deal with this magical thinking as the problem that it is.

Dunno, seems like a fool's errand to me. Good luck getting a 1.5 billion Muslims, 2 billion Christians, a billion Hindus and hundreds of millions of others to drop their religion.

But there's also attrition. Some of these whackjobs, especially of the Christian and Muslim varieties, still don't seem to realize: the crazier they get, the more secularists will result.

172 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:47:33am

re: #170 marjoriemoon

The statement "we were created in the image of God" isn't a physical image. It means that we were given a mind that is able to rationalize, think, learn, create and make choices (free will) beyond just acting on instinct. That is the image we share with God; the mind of God is the mind that we mirror and that no other living being has. Or so is what that statement means...

I always thought the meaning was literal. Cause when I am at the pool and take off my t-shirt, people look away mutterin "oh my god".

173 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:49:41am

re: #168 Fozzie Bear

I think the primary reason the idea of God is so prevalent is really, really simple. People don't want to die, and have an extremely hard time accepting that they will. Everything else flows from that.

If that's the case (and I agree ftmp), we will always, always, always have religion to deal with.

174 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:51:24am

re: #172 imp_62

I always thought the meaning was literal. Cause when I am at the pool and take off my t-shirt, people look away mutterin "oh my god".

LOL I hear I thought you were gonna say something sexual.

175 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:52:48am

re: #164 Fozzie Bear

Considering impossible things isn't unhealthy. Being absolutely convinced that impossible things are true, and fervently believing it is your duty to act on these beliefs, and poison as many other peoples' minds with unreason as possible is not only unhealthy on an individual level, but destructive on a societal level.
.

But that's not the behavior of most religious people. You're shilly-shallying between talking about the worst of the religious and most of humanity.

176 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:54:04am

re: #174 marjoriemoon

LOL I hear I thought you were gonna say something sexual.

I wanted to, but the subsequent lightning bolt would damage my Mac...

177 allegro  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:54:44am

re: #170 marjoriemoon

The statement "we were created in the image of God" isn't a physical image. It means that we were given a mind that is able to rationalize, think, learn, create and make choices (free will) beyond just acting on instinct. That is the image we share with God; the mind of God is the mind that we mirror and that no other living being has. Or so is what that statement means...

This is the very mindset I was talking about that has been so destructive. In small human minds it results in an entitled superiority that puts them, in their minds, above all else, "better than." It diminishes (at best) respect for the millions of other species we share the planet with - not to mention the other humans who don't share this belief system that are also seen as "less than." We're seeing this at work right here, right now. Exactly this.

178 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:59:05am

re: #177 allegro

At its best, religion creates a common social bond designed to strengthen positive interpersonal relationships and foster respect for the world around us. Don't blame whatever deity or group of human came up with the concept for the stubborn insistance of sum to be a negative force in the world.

179 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 11:59:29am

re: #177 allegro

I think that's the truest negative about religion; it's a divisive force as much as a unifying force. But that is not an attribute that, in humans, is confined to religion.

180 shutdown  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:00:25pm

re: #179 Obdicut

re: #178 imp_62

Holy thread mechanics Batman, our opinons are converging....

181 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:02:10pm

I'll just place my faith in the Emperor then...

182 jvic  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:08:50pm

From Charles' link:

Tea party members are far from alone in opposing the new rules. The Crystal River City Council and Citrus County Commission contend the new regulations will be bad for the local economy.

Reporter Craig Pittman quoted religious extremists and conspiracy theorists in the Tea Party, who made themselves ridiculous. For some reason he did not provide quotes from the City Council and County Commission about why they oppose the proposed manatee rules.

Puzzling, isn't it?

183 Kragar  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:10:39pm

Geeking out for a minute,

I recommend the Horus Heresy books for anyone looking for scifi books. Its central premise is a united humanity trying to establish a galactic secular empire, based on pure reason, but as they progress, they discover there are forces they can't explain, with various factions turning to different religions to fill the gaps.

184 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:10:51pm

re: #182 jvic

Not really, no.

185 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:14:33pm

re: #182 jvic

Uh, from the article linked above:

Tea party members are far from alone in opposing the new rules. The Crystal River City Council and Citrus County Commission contend the new regulations will be bad for the local economy.

Kings Bay, famed as the one place in Florida where humans can swim with and even touch the manatees, is facing a renewed battle over how much protection for manatees is too much. That argument has been going on there since Jacques Cousteau featured Kings Bay's manatees in his 1972 documentary Forgotten Mermaids.

He may not have quoted them, but he certainly did acknowledge that the Teabaggers aren't the only ones opposed.

186 What, me worry?  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:24:52pm

re: #177 allegro

This is the very mindset I was talking about that has been so destructive. In small human minds it results in an entitled superiority that puts them, in their minds, above all else, "better than." It diminishes (at best) respect for the millions of other species we share the planet with - not to mention the other humans who don't share this belief system that are also seen as "less than." We're seeing this at work right here, right now. Exactly this.

I guess it gets back to interpretation, or rather, if you have a really good scholar telling you how to read/interpret these things, then it makes more sense and give you room to grow (intellectually).

We were created in the image of God doesn't mean we are God or we have the right to speak for God or that we're better than God or other beings. We are the caretakers of the planet. We're given the gift of the great brain to be the caretakers and look after the other species. That isn't something to be abused, neither is your brain meant to be abused! But people surely do that, themselves and others and twist these ideas for their own purposes.

It's not hard to see when it's happening. It's very easy, actually, if you have a sense of right and wrong (as you do and many here do). People will always take whatever they can use to justify their bad behavior, especially the Bible, but that doesn't make the Bible bad.

I don't know if I'm explaining this as well as it sounds in my head.

187 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:37:53pm

re: #39 Fozzie Bear

Oh, and seriously, fuck the bible. Fuck it raw.

I would not downding you for that. I would just say f'k the people who use it as a pretext to abuse, hate, and exploit themselves and others. And that's a lot of people, not just Christians, either.

188 jvic  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:38:14pm

re: #185 Charles

He may not have quoted them, but he certainly did acknowledge that the Teabaggers aren't the only ones opposed.

Understood, and never disputed.

But when a reporter quotes an extremist source somewhat at length, but does not quote a mainstream source that he is aware of, I wonder about that reporter's objectivity.

Regardless of my attitude toward the underlying issue.

189 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:41:36pm

re: #188 jvic

Why don't you think the Tea Party is a mainstream source?

190 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:46:45pm

re: #39 Fozzie Bear

Oh, and seriously, fuck the bible. Fuck it raw.

Well, in Soviet Russia [X-rated link].

191 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 12:46:56pm

re: #189 Obdicut

Why don't you think the Tea Party is a mainstream source?

They have mainstreamed extremism.

192 jvic  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 1:32:16pm

re: #189 Obdicut

Why don't you think the Tea Party is a mainstream source?

I referred to the individuals who were quoted, not to the Tea Party. (Yes, one of them claims to be the leader of the county Tea Party Patriots, whatever that is. I'm the Grand Vizier of Rumba-Sourdough.)

The Tea Parties are new and fragmented. Their mailings are amateurish. They are in flux.

IMO they started out as middle-class secular protests against government overreaching, but were immediately noticed by religious and other extremists (and by opportunists like Palin) who tried to co-opt them: unfortunately, with considerable success.

193 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 1:35:23pm

re: #192 jvic

I referred to the individuals who were quoted, not to the Tea Party. (Yes, one of them claims to be the leader of the county Tea Party Patriots, whatever that is. I'm the Grand Vizier of Rumba-Sourdough.)

Um, okay. SO you don't believe they're an organized group, and that guy really has that title? Or do you really think you're the grand vizier?


IMO they started out as middle-class secular protests against government overreaching, but were immediately noticed by religious and other extremists (and by opportunists like Palin) who tried to co-opt them: unfortunately, with considerable success.

Do you or do you not think that they're mainstream?

194 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 1:55:47pm

re: #192 jvic

IMO they started out as middle-class secular protests against government overreaching, but were immediately noticed by religious and other extremists (and by opportunists like Palin) who tried to co-opt them: unfortunately, with considerable success.

Your opinion is incorrect.

195 jvic  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 2:09:41pm

The Citrus County Tea Party Patriots are here. The header is:

Fiscal Responsibility*Limited Government*Free Market(s)

That all sounds good to me. (IMO mature free markets, if left unregulated, will be rigged by the most powerful participants.)

But then when I read something like

"We cannot elevate nature above people," explained Edna Mattos, 63, leader of the Citrus County Tea Party Patriots, in an interview. "That's against the Bible and the Bill of Rights."

I do what some people call a double-take and others call a WTF.

Those two headers capture my suspicion and concern that some or most Tea Parties have been hijacked, or are in the process of being hijacked, by religious extremists.

196 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 2:47:32pm

re: #195 jvic

Those two headers capture my suspicion and concern that some or most Tea Parties have been hijacked, or are in the process of being hijacked, by religious extremists.

Tea Parties were started by Ron Paul in 2007. I don't know whether he has been hijacked, but that might explain the dissonance of "liberty and less government" being combined with his extreme anti-choice stand.

197 mr.fusion  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 3:26:34pm

re: #185 Charles

Uh, from the article linked above:

He may not have quoted them, but he certainly did acknowledge that the Teabaggers aren't the only ones opposed.

I don't know for sure, but I'd say there's a better than 50-50 chance that the Crystal River City City Council and Citrus County Commission lean towards Tea Party

198 jvic  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 4:17:17pm

re: #196 wrenchwench

Tea Parties were started by Ron Paul in 2007. I don't know whether he has been hijacked, but that might explain the dissonance of "liberty and less government" being combined with his extreme anti-choice stand.

1. Wikipedia is not authoritative, but their description of the Tea Parties' origins differs from yours. Wikipedia describes Paul as the single greatest intellectual influence.

2. Paul's position on abortion sounds like doubletalk to me. Anyhow, I can't support Paul after Charles' posts about him.

3. Fyi, while searching for the above links, I came across this libertarian comparison of Ron Paul and Gary Johnson.

199 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 4:29:14pm

re: #198 jvic

Johnson supported the Constitution party, which is left out of that review of him.

200 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 5:05:22pm

re: #198 jvic

1. Wikipedia is not authoritative, but their description of the Tea Parties' origins differs from yours. Wikipedia describes Paul as the single greatest intellectual influence.

2. Paul's position on abortion sounds like doubletalk to me. Anyhow, I can't support Paul after Charles' posts about him.

3. Fyi, while searching for the above links, I came across this libertarian comparison of Ron Paul and Gary Johnson.

1.) I think the Wiki article supports my version:

More recently, the anniversary of the original Boston Tea Party was commemorated by Republican Congressman Ron Paul supporters who held a fund raising event for the 2008 presidential primaries advocating an end to fiat money and the Federal Reserve System, disengaging from foreign entanglements in Iraq and Afghanistan, and upholding States' rights.[32][33][34] Fox News commentator Juan Williams says that the TPM emerged largely as a result of Paul's 2008 primary campaign,[35] although on-air comments delivered on CNBC by Rick Santelli are credited with inspiring a number of Tea Party-themed websites and events.

2.) If you can't support Paul, I don't know why you think you can support Johnson. Johnson's support of Chuck Baldwin tells me all I need to know about whether he'd stand up for the rights of women.

3.) What Obdicut said. Let me know when you find a Johnson supporter who admits they know who he voted for in 2008. Also needing explanation: What the hell was he doing at this convention, hanging out with these people?

Judge Andrew P. Napolitano
G. Edward Griffin
Tom Tancredo
Gary Johnson
Sheriff Richard Mack
Stewart Rhodes
Dr. Richard Davis
Dr. Kirk Elliott
John M. Chambers
Paul St. John
Mark Cross
Fred Brownbill
Joseph Farah

If you are unfamiliar with those people, look them up.

201 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 5:50:32pm

re: #195 jvic

But then when I read something like ...

I do what some people call a double-take and others call a WTF.

Why does it surprise you that these dumb tea party bigots also have a lot of crossover with the dumb christian Conservative bigots?

Those two headers capture my suspicion and concern that some or most Tea Parties have been hijacked, or are in the process of being hijacked, by religious extremists.

They haven't been hijacked, they're just another bunch of factionalists and schismatics all insisting their way is the superior or only way. (Where have we heard that crap before.)

The Citrus Whatever Tea Party Patriots are on a collision course with their national people. The TPP were the ones who made some pact with GOProud/Dummy Bruce and some dorks named New American Patriots to leave social issues off the table. [Link: bit.ly...]

Tea Party Nation, for one, had a FKING COW over it. (Though TPN is nothing but Judson Phillips' daily rants about how miserable his life is, anyway.)

TPP, TPN, TPX, National Tea Party Federation, they have all been going at it for what, at least 2 years now?

Whose version of exclusionist, elitist, bigoted conservative extremism will win out? /

202 jvic  Wed, Jul 13, 2011 6:17:47pm

re: #200 wrenchwench

1.) I think the Wiki article supports my version:

The conservative blogs I read say Santelli's remarks were the triggering event. I'm sticking with that interpretation but I see what you mean.

2.) If you can't support Paul, I don't know why you think you can support Johnson. Johnson's support of Chuck Baldwin tells me all I need to know about whether he'd stand up for the rights of women.

3.) ...Let me know when you find a Johnson supporter who admits they know who he voted for in 2008. Also needing explanation: What the hell was he doing at this convention, hanging out with these people?

I don't know. Currently he is saying this:

...This “pledge” is nothing short of a promise to discriminate against everyone who makes a personal choice that doesn’t fit into a particular definition of “virtue.”

While the Family Leader pledge covers just about every other so-called virtue they can think of, the one that is conspicuously missing is tolerance. In one concise document, they manage to condemn gays, single parents, single individuals, divorcees, Muslims, gays in the military, unmarried couples, women who choose to have abortions and everyone else who doesn’t fit in a Norman Rockwell painting....

I've remarked before that Johnson created an extensive public record during his two terms as governor. If his candidacy gets traction, that record will be scrutinized exhaustively.


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