A Devastating Takedown of Fraudulent Climate Change Denier Christopher Monckton

People like Monckton are heroes to the right because they blatantly lie with an upper class British accent
Environment • Views: 21,707

Peter Hadfield has another pair of excellent videos on climate change, answering the fraudulent, blatantly dishonest claims of right wing hero Christopher Monckton by quoting Monckton’s own words back at him. This is absolutely devastating stuff, and it says volumes about the right (none of it good) that a pseudo-intellectual charlatan like Monckton is treated as an authority and even called to testify before Congress.

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208 comments
1 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 10:34:54am

Does anyone have confidence that Politicians will take any meaningful to address AGW?

2 albusteve  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 10:36:19am

re: #1 ggt

Does anyone have confidence that Politicians will take any meaningful to address AGW?

none….unless there’s something in it for them

3 allegro  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 10:40:41am

re: #2 albusteve

none…unless there’s something in it for them

One might think that survival -theirs and their families - might be a trifle motivating. But I suppose that is asking too much of those who cannot see beyond their next election or the next quarter profits.

4 albusteve  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 10:41:45am

re: #3 allegro

One might think that survival -theirs and their families - might be a trifle motivating. But I suppose that is asking too much of those who cannot see beyond their next election or the next quarter profits.

the first priority of all elected officials is to get re-elected

5 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 10:42:34am

It’s like teenagers and bad choices. They simply don’t believe in their own mortality.

6 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 10:43:07am

re: #3 allegro

One might think that survival -theirs and their families - might be a trifle motivating. But I suppose that is asking too much of those who cannot see beyond their next election or the next quarter profits.

But they figure they will be part of the elect that get access to the evacuation boats, fenced reservations, etc. that will preserve them and their families from the results of their indifference.

7 jaunte  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 10:49:42am
…it says volumes about the right (none of it good) that a pseudo-intellectual charlatan like Monckton is treated as an authority and even called to testify before Congress.

And the majority of the members of Congress will probably not find the time in their reelection campaign schedules to watch this debunking.

8 jaunte  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 10:58:03am

Nice response to the ‘libel’ accusation.

9 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 10:59:12am

One of the bombs in Koblenz has been defused.

10 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:05:04am

In the German city of Trier, people do not excavate cellars under their houses: not for fear of bombs, but for fear of stumbling upon more Roman ruins, which, by law, mean that the excavation has to be suspended until the site can be investigated by an archaeologist, which entails often unforseeable delays in the project.

11 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:06:11am

re: #10 ralphieboy

See, for someone like me, this would have the opposite effect. I would dig the shit out of anywhere legal.

12 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:10:31am

re: #11 ProLifeLiberal

See, for someone like me, this would have the opposite effect. I would dig the shit out of anywhere legal.

It is okay if you are not a commercial undertaking, where time is money. We had a bit of a delay tearing down our old barn and hitting a 90-year-old septic tank, which flooded the excavation site…

13 LWNJ  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:12:42am

re: #5 ggt

It’s like teenagers and bad choices. They simply don’t believe in their own mortality.

More like the “does smoking cause cancer” arguments. There were so many voices saying it doesn’t that people could tell themselves there was still a question about it, even after the Surgeon General’s report came out.

But is there any other country where the deniers are still listened to? I get the impression that there isn’t.

14 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:13:44am

re: #12 ralphieboy

Now, that is something awful to find.

15 LWNJ  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:14:02am

re: #5 ggt

It’s like teenagers and bad choices. They simply don’t believe in their own mortality.

It reminds me more of the “does smoking cause cancer” debate. Even after the Surgeon General’s report came out, there were enough people denying it that people who wanted to believe could convince themselves that nothing was proved.

On the other hand, is there another country where there are so many deniers? I get the impression that there isn’t.

16 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:14:25am

re: #13 C1nnabar

But is there any other country where the deniers are still listened to? I get the impression that there isn’t.

Listened to on what level? On the level of the population? I’m sure there are plenty.

17 Batman  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:14:39am

My favorite part is that not once does Monckton say, “I was right, and here’s the evidence.” It’s always, “I didn’t say that,” when he did.

18 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:15:09am

re: #12 ralphieboy

LOL. So what was in the tank after 90 years?

19 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:15:39am

The GOP hates science and loves goggle-eyed fraudulent aristocrats.

20 ProBosniaLiberal  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:15:44am

re: #18 Sergey Romanov

A whole lot of awful.

21 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:16:13am

re: #20 ProLifeLiberal

A whole lot of awful.

Maybe after 90 years not so awful? That’s basically what I want to know :)

22 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:16:37am

re: #20 ProLifeLiberal

A whole lot of awful.

It was a runoff tank under the barn, a whole lot of nasty liquid effluent. Held up construction until we got it pumped out.

23 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:16:47am

lol@6 week delay on comics:

[Link: cdn.svcs.c2.uclick.com…]

(doonesbury ripping on perry, which would have been totally relevant in mid-october)

24 jaunte  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:16:50am

Who else in the world calls the things ‘glassiers?’

25 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:17:34am

re: #19 Obdicut

the thing about monkton is his name SOUNDS like a joke, like Lord Haw-Haw.

26 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:17:45am

re: #24 jaunte

Who else in the world calls the things ‘glassiers?’

that is the British pronunciation.

27 LWNJ  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:18:11am

re: #16 Sergey Romanov

I mean on the “public discourse” level. Are there “serious debates” going on elsewhere about whether it’s happening?

(If I disappear suddenly, it means this @#$% connection died the death.)

28 jaunte  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:18:29am

re: #26 ralphieboy

Peter Hadfield doesn’t use it.

29 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:18:42am

Heh, United Russia gets ~47% (preliminary). Now imagine how much lower that would be without all the pressure and falsifications.

30 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:18:48am

re: #26 ralphieboy

that is the British pronunciation.

Good think he didn’t mention aluminum.

31 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:19:19am

re: #27 C1nnabar

I mean on the “public discourse” level. Are there “serious debates” going on elsewhere about whether it’s happening?

(If I disappear suddenly, it means this @#$% connection died the death.)

In Russia you get denier documentaries shown on state TV, so whatcha talking about? ;)

32 jaunte  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:19:48am

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Biscuits, not cookies!

33 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:21:41am

oops!
US Ambassador Under Fire for Comments on Anti-Semitism*

Yedioth Ahronoth, an Israeli newspaper, reported Friday that Gutman told a Jewish conference on anti-Semitism organized by the European Jewish Union that — as the newspaper described it — “a distinction should be made between traditional anti-Semitism, which should be condemned and Muslim hatred for Jews, which stems from the ongoing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.”

According to the prepared remarks of his speech, Gutman distinguished between “anti-Semitism, of hatred and violence against Jews, from a small sector of the population who hate others who may be different or perceived to be different, largely for the sake of hating” from what he perceived to be a different phenomenon tied to Israeli policies.

34 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:24:51am

re: #33 Killgore Trout

oops!
US Ambassador Under Fire for Comments on Anti-Semitism*

That’s a YA spin, where are the original words?

35 LWNJ  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:26:37am

re: #33 Killgore Trout

If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck…

36 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:27:21am

re: #34 Sergey Romanov

Aha, here they are:

[Link: belgium.usembassy.gov…]

37 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:28:29am

re: #33 Killgore Trout

I wouldn’t trust Ynet analysis, they’re just a tabloid.

His words were:

It is a tension and perhaps hatred largely born of and reflecting the tension between Israel, the Palestinian Territories and neighboring Arab states in the Middle East over the continuing Israeli-Palestinian problem.

and

“is in my opinion different in many respects than the classic bigotry…It is more complex and requiring much more thought and analysis. This second form of what is labeled ‘growing anti-Semitism’ produces strange phenomena and results.”

Gutman said that “throughout the Muslim communities that I visit, and indeed throughout Europe, there is significant anger and resentment and, yes, perhaps sometimes hatred and indeed sometimes and all too growing intimidation and violence directed at Jews generally as a result of the continuing tensions between Israel and the Palestinian territories and other Arab neighbors in the Middle East…every new settlement announced in Israel, every rocket shot over a border or suicide bomber on a bus, and every retaliatory military strike exacerbates the problem and provides a setback here in Europe for those fighting hatred and bigotry here in Europe.”

I disagree with him that every retaliatory military strike exacerbates the problem, but the remarks aren’t what Ynet are making them out to be.

It’s true that it’s not traditional bigotry. What he’s leaving out, and what is important, is how manufactured the bigotry is, how it’s funded and spread by the Arab States. And it’s possible that whatever was left out above included stuff about that.

38 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:29:10am

re: #34 Sergey Romanov

That’s a YA spin, where are the original words?

There’s a link to the text of the speech in the article.
[Link: belgium.usembassy.gov…]

39 LWNJ  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:29:47am

re: #31 Sergey Romanov

That’s why I asked :) Not much coverage of — or by — the Russian press around here, and I don’t have time to really research it. (And if I did, I wouldn’t be able to cover the globe anyway.)

But I thought Putin said global warming could only be good for Russia. (A billion starving Chinese moving north is something he may not have considered.)

40 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:31:13am

re: #25 windsagio

the thing about monkton is his name SOUNDS like a joke, like Lord Haw-Haw.

I always seem to think “Mock”ton when I see the name.

41 Stanley Sea  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:33:55am

re: #40 ggt

Ya killing me!

42 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:34:06am

Here’s some more of his remarks from the bit I just quoted, in fuller context:

It is I believe this area where community leaders – Jewish, Muslim, and third parties—where diplomats and religious leaders, where lawyers and professionals from both communities, where mothers and fathers, where university leaders and school administrators, can make the most difference by working to limit converting political and military tension in the Middle East into social problems in Europe. But it is the area too – both fortunately and unfortunately — where the largest part of the solution remains in the hands of government leaders in Israel and the Palestinian territories and Arab countries in the Middle East. It is the area where every new settlement announced in Israel, every rocket shot over a border or suicide bomber on a bus, and every retaliatory military strike exacerbates the problem and provides a setback here in Europe for those fighting hatred and bigotry here in Europe.

I said that it is both fortunate and unfortunate that the largest part of the solution for this second type of problem – too often lumped under a general banner of anti-Semitism – is in the hands of Israel, the Palestinians and Arab neighbors in the Middle East. It is fortunate because it means that, unlike traditional hatred of minorities, a path towards improving and resolving it does at least exist. It is crucial for the Middle East – but it is crucial for the Jewish and Arab communities in Europe and for countries around the globe – that Mid-East peace negotiations continue, that settlements abate, and that progress towards a lasting peace be made and then such a peace reached in the Middle East. Were a lasting peace in the Middle East to be reached, were joint and cooperative Israeli-Arab attentions turned to focus instead on such serious, common threats such as Iran, this second type of ethnic tension and bigotry here in Europe – which is clearly growing today – would clearly abate. I can envision the day when it disappears. Peace in the Middle East would indeed equate with a huge reduction of this form of labeled “anti-Semitism” here in Europe.

He’s not going into much detail about the conflict, and he’s not calling out the Arab states for their outright manufacture of anti-semitism. I’m happy to scold him for that. But it isn’t anything like it’s being presented by Ynet, and it’s true that there’s a distinction to be made between the different types of anti-semitism. And he condemns all anti-semitism.

43 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:38:50am

re: #42 Obdicut

The basic problem is that groups, both Likud and Hamas, are trying to feed that hatred, making it hard to mitigate.

44 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:39:40am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Having now read that, I see how it can raise a few eyebrows. However, still a nontroversy.

45 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:40:45am

re: #43 windsagio

The basic problem is that groups, both Likud and Hamas, are trying to feed that hatred, making it hard to mitigate.

I’m not a big fan of Likud but they aren’t even in the same ballpark as Hamas. I think that attitude is the source of the outrage over the ambassador’s remarks.

46 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:42:22am

re: #44 Sergey Romanov

Having now read that, I see how it can raise a few eyebrows. However, still a nontroversy.

To us maybe but I can see how Jews and Israelis might take offense. Searching for too much nuance on the topic of antisemitism is dangerous ground.

47 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:46:24am

re: #45 Killgore Trout

oh yeah no equivalence should be implied… but still

—Trying to make things better—
-
-
-
-
—mysteriously thinks the status quo is fime—
—Likud—
-
-
—Hamas—
—Trying to make things worse—

The point is making things worse is still a goal, and as long as people on either side want to promote the hate are running governments, let alone people on both side, the situation is probably going to deteriorate

Edit: Its a tricky situation because any looks at the causes of violence that doesn’t say its just outright anti-jewish prejudice (I hesitate to use antisemitism there, because, well look whos hating in this case) leads to accusations of outright antisemitism.

48 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:47:06am

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Good think he didn’t mention aluminum.

Aluuminium!

49 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:48:24am

re: #46 Killgore Trout

Lack of nuance leads to this:

The conference was attended by Jewish lawyers from across Europe. The legal experts at the event were visibly stunned by Gutman’s words, and the next speaker offered a scathing rebuttal to the envoy’s remarks.

“The modern Anti-Semite formally condemns Anti-Semitism and the Holocaust and expresses upmost sympathy with the Jewish people. He simply has created a new species, the “Anti-Zionist” or – even more sophisticated – the so-called ‘Israel critic,’” Germany attorney Nathan Gelbart said.

It’s not even “some Israel critics and anti-Zionists are antisemites”, not even “most of them are” - it’s a plain claim that the categories “Israel critics” and “anti-Zionists” are created by antisemites, and therefore all Israel critics and anti-Zionists are antisemites.

50 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:50:40am

re: #49 Sergey Romanov

its the next step of Bush’s “If you’re not with us, you’re against us”… “If you’re not with us, you’re an evil racist”.

51 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:52:36am

re: #42 Obdicut

Oh, and I also disagree with this bit:

It is at the same time somewhat unfortunate that most of the cause and thus most of the solution for tension and hatred in Europe, for growing problems at Belgian universities, for epithets in the streets, rest with governments and people a continent away. For, in some respect, citizens, parents, religious and community leaders here in Europe can simply try to promote understanding and patience, while ensuring law enforcement serves its mission, without being able fully to address the most root causes and most efficient cures.

There is no reason why Muslims in Europe have to ‘side with’ or in any way be influenced by Muslims in the Middle East.

52 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:53:04am

re: #50 windsagio

its the next step of Bush’s “If you’re not with us, you’re against us”… “If you’re not with us, you’re an evil racist”.

IIRC, Bush made that remark soon after 911. The sentiment was very emotionally charged and shared by most of the country. It’s not appropriate, IIRC, to judge it in hindsight when one cannot recapture the emotion of the time.

53 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:55:16am

re: #43 windsagio

The basic problem is that groups, both Likud and Hamas, are trying to feed that hatred, making it hard to mitigate.

No, not really. Hamas is not the wellspring of antisemitism and hatred for Israel in the Middle East. The ambassador got that right. Every Arab state in the region actively spreads anti-Israel propaganda and anti-semitic propaganda.

Putting it in terms of Israel/Palestine is vastly overlooking the actual problem. I’m glad the Ambassador put it in the terms he did, of a regional problem, even if I don’t feel he adequately described the problem.

54 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:55:58am

re: #52 ggt

It’s not like I wasn’t there too after 9/11 :p It reflects a very specific mental state, an unhealthy bunker mentality.

And it was of course used (in both instances) manipulatively for its emotional force.

55 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:57:12am

re: #54 windsagio

He was just channeling Jesus anyway. //

56 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:57:39am

re: #54 windsagio

It’s not like I wasn’t there too after 9/11 :p It reflects a very specific mental state, an unhealthy bunker mentality.

And it was of course used (in both instances) manipulatively for its emotional force.

He drew a line in the sand —regarding terrorism

I don’t agree with your characterization.

57 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:57:45am

re: #53 Obdicut

I’m not saying they’re the wellspring, not at all.

I am saying that the leadership of Hamas specifically wants to make the situation worse (IE the rocket attacks are specifically to frighten/anger israelis and specifically to get counterattacks).

They don’t automatically go together :p

58 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 11:59:47am

re: #56 ggt

and the concept was applied with a very broad brush.

The thing is, even in that context it was an insane sentiment. It’s perfectly possible and imaginable for people, let alone foreign states to be against (or even neutral to) the US’s policies re:terrorism and not be against the country.

59 recusancy  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:00:17pm

re: #52 ggt

IIRC, Bush made that remark soon after 911. The sentiment was very emotionally charged and shared by most of the country. It’s not appropriate, IIRC, to judge it in hindsight when one cannot recapture the emotion of the time.

Believe it or not, but some of us managed to not pee ourselves into an anti muslim, unilateralist, blind rage.

60 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:00:53pm

re: #58 windsagio

and the concept was applied with a very broad brush.

The thing is, even in that context it was an insane sentiment. It’s perfectly possible and imaginable for people, let alone foreign states to be against (or even neutral to) the US’s policies re:terrorism and not be against the country.

Any country that sponsors terrorism or aids and abets those who do is not with us.

You really have a problem with that?

61 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:01:59pm

re: #59 recusancy

Believe it or not, but some of us managed to not pee ourselves into an anti muslim, unilateralist, blind rage.

That is still going on today and needs to be addressed in the political forum. The Establishment Clause is under attack. Terrorism is not a religion specific activity.

62 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:02:14pm

OK, just as with Gutman’s speech, with Bush’s words the context is important. The full text of Bush’s remarks?

63 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:03:59pm

(I still remember how I was suckered by Michael Moore into believing that Bush’s words about haves and havemores were serious. I may dislike Bush, but I don’t want to take him out of context.)

64 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:04:48pm

re: #57 windsagio

I’m not saying they’re the wellspring, not at all.

I am saying that the leadership of Hamas specifically wants to make the situation worse (IE the rocket attacks are specifically to frighten/anger israelis and specifically to get counterattacks).

Well, then I think you’d have to provide some support for that. I mean, it makes sense as a theory, but I don’t know of any actual proof that Hamas wants military retaliation by Israel. Are you saying that because Hamas continually breaks cease-fires?

65 recusancy  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:04:55pm

re: #62 Sergey Romanov

OK, just as with Gutman’s speech, with Bush’s words the context is important. The full text of Bush’s remarks?

[Link: articles.cnn.com…]

66 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:05:17pm

Here it is: [Link: georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov…]

67 blueraven  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:06:40pm

re: #65 recusancy

[Link: articles.cnn.com…]

Here is the relevant part

“A coalition partner must do more than just express sympathy, a coalition partner must perform,” Bush said. “That means different things for different nations. Some nations don’t want to contribute troops and we understand that. Other nations can contribute intelligence-sharing. … But all nations, if they want to fight terror, must do something.”

Bush said he would not point out any specific countries in his speech.

“Over time it’s going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity,” he said. “You’re either with us or against us in the fight against terror.”

68 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:07:15pm
“Over time it’s going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity,” he said. “You’re either with us or against us in the fight against terror.”

re: #65 recusancy

[Link: articles.cnn.com…]

Reading in to the statement and the speech that it is racist is no different than reading into it that it is religion specific (as the Christian Whackos seem to be doing).

69 recusancy  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:09:26pm

re: #66 Sergey Romanov

Here it is: [Link: georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov…]

Oh yeah… That’s also when he asked the American people to shop.

70 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:09:36pm

Full quote from that section:

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.

It’s somewhat of a muddled statement. The final sentence says only those who support or harbor terrorism will be regarded as hostile. What about those who just take no interest in the fight?

71 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:09:44pm

re: #64 Obdicut

You know how it is, its something I definitely believe, its also something I can’t at all prove.

72 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:10:22pm

re: #66 Sergey Romanov

Gotta agree with the critics. The context was the counter-terrorist measures, not standing with the US in mourning and moral support, not condemnation of terrorism in general. And as one cannot be expected to give a carte blanche on that under all and any circumstances (need I mention Iraq?), this is indeed an absolutist thinking.

73 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:10:53pm

re: #52 ggt

IIRC, Bush made that remark soon after 911. The sentiment was very emotionally charged and shared by most of the country. It’s not appropriate, IIRC, to judge it in hindsight when one cannot recapture the emotion of the time.

There wasn’t one universal emotion at the time, especially among those targeted as “not with us”, simply because we didn’t fall for those kinds of clichés.

74 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:11:39pm

re: #60 ggt

Any country that sponsors terrorism or aids and abets those who do is not with us.

You really have a problem with that?

What about countries that take (took) a position of neutrality, especially per actual action? They’re clearly not with us, but they’re not really against us either.

It always struck me as a way of bullying people/nations… “If you don’t help out, you’re our enemy. Do you want to be the Enemy of the US?”

75 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:12:45pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Full quote from that section:

It’s somewhat of a muddled statement. The final sentence says only those who support or harbor terrorism will be regarded as hostile. What about those who just take no interest in the fight?

“against us.” /

76 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:13:02pm

re: #72 Sergey Romanov

Gotta agree with the critics. The context was the counter-terrorist measures, not standing with the US in mourning and moral support, not condemnation of terrorism in general. And as one cannot be expected to give a cart blanche on that under all and any circumstances (need I mention Iraq?), this is indeed an absolutist thinking.

I guess I do see it as a condemnation of terrorism in general.

I don’t understand why absolutist thinking in regards to a “No tolerance” rule regarding terrorism is wrong.

77 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:13:10pm

re: #68 ggt

Nobody said racist here per that statement, except you…

It’s manipulative for sure though, and a bit bullying.

78 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:13:28pm

re: #71 windsagio

You know how it is, its something I definitely believe, its also something I can’t at all prove.

I don’t actually know how that is. I mean, I don’t really know enough about Hamas to adequately summarize ‘why’ they do anything. I expect they’re a pretty wildly disparate bunch, with some true believers, some absolute cynics, some guys that just love killing shit, some guys making money off of it, etc. I don’t think that any “This is why Hamas does this” statement has much chance of being true or accurate.

79 blueraven  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:13:45pm

re: #75 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

“against us.” /

“Over time it’s going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity,” he said. “You’re either with us or against us in the fight against terror.”

80 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:14:23pm

re: #78 Obdicut

yeah you do. Everybody has things they think/suspect that they can’t prove.

Everybody.

81 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:14:32pm

re: #79 blueraven

The word ‘inactivity’ doesn’t appear in that speech.

Are you talking about a different speech?

82 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:15:11pm

re: #76 ggt

I guess I do see it as a condemnation of terrorism in general.

I don’t understand why absolutist thinking in regards to a “No tolerance” rule regarding terrorism is wrong.

As I have pointed out, he was not talking about a no tolerance rule.

He basically said, either you’re with the US in whatever it deems fit to do in regard to terrorism, or you’re against the US. One can have no tolerance for terrorism AND be against specific measures the US undertook.

83 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:15:30pm

re: #74 windsagio

What about countries that take (took) a position of neutrality, especially per actual action? They’re clearly not with us, but they’re not really against us either.

It always struck me as a way of bullying people/nations… “If you don’t help out, you’re our enemy. Do you want to be the Enemy of the US?”

Not sending troops is not a problem with me. Not sharing information or harboring terrorists would be. I think I need a definition of neutrality.

84 recusancy  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:15:39pm

re: #81 Obdicut

The word ‘inactivity’ doesn’t appear in that speech.

Are you talking about a different speech?

[Link: articles.cnn.com…]

85 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:15:41pm

re: #52 ggt

IIRC, Bush made that remark soon after 911. The sentiment was very emotionally charged and shared by most of the country. It’s not appropriate, IIRC, to judge it in hindsight when one cannot recapture the emotion of the time.

That’s the problem in a nutshell, using emotion to justify/excuse a completely illogical and counter productive sentiment. It is completely fair to say that Bush’s emotional overreaction (I would say cynical manipulation, but whatever) was inappropriate and exactly the wrong message to send to the world. That statement alone killed off a good chunk of the goodwill 9/11 gave us, due to the simple fact that nobody likes being delivered an ultimatum.

86 blueraven  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:15:58pm

re: #81 Obdicut

The word ‘inactivity’ doesn’t appear in that speech.
Are you talking about a different speech?

[Link: articles.cnn.com…]

87 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:16:05pm

re: #79 blueraven

“Over time it’s going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity,” he said. “You’re either with us or against us in the fight against terror.”

And that is precisely the mentality that makes folk hate “us” and not want to be with “us” in much of anything, let alone the stupid WOT.

88 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:16:20pm

re: #77 windsagio

Nobody said racist here per that statement, except you…

It’s manipulative for sure though, and a bit bullying.

REALLY?

re: #50 windsagio

its the next step of Bush’s “If you’re not with us, you’re against us”… “If you’re not with us, you’re an evil racist”.

89 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:16:29pm

re: #80 windsagio

yeah you do. Everybody has things they think/suspect that they can’t prove.

Everybody.

Sure, that wasn’t what I was saying.

90 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:17:10pm

re: #88 ggt

REALLY?

re: #50 windsagio

Really. That second statement is not ascribed to Bush. Duh.

91 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:17:10pm

re: #82 Sergey Romanov

As I have pointed out, he was not talking about a no tolerance rule.

He basically said, either you’re with the US in whatever it deems fit to do in regard to terrorism, or you’re against the US. One can have no tolerance for terrorism AND be against specific measures the US undertook.

“terror”, not “terrorism”.

“War on terror” rotfl

92 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:17:46pm

re: #91 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

War on Terriers.

93 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:18:18pm

re: #86 blueraven

Okay, here’s the full text for that one:

[Link: avalon.law.yale.edu…]

I am going to the United Nations to give a speech on Saturday. And I am going to praise those nations who have joined our coalition. But a coalition partner must do more than just express sympathy; a coalition partner must perform. And our coalition partner here has performed; we work together.

And that means different things for different nations. Some nations don’t want to contribute troops, and we understand that. Other nations can contribute intelligence-sharing, and for that we’re grateful. But all nations, if they want to fight terror, must do something. It is time for action. And that’s going to be the message of my speech at the United Nations.

I have no specific nation in mind, at least as I stand here now. Everybody ought to be given the benefit of the doubt. But over time, it’s going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity. You are either with us or you are against us in the fight against terror. And that’s going to be part of my speech at the United Nations.

He’s putting the bar of doing something at “Share information on terrorism
if you’ve got it”, which doesn’t actually sound that bad to me. But he’s putting it in oddly blustery terms.

I’m honestly not really sure why we’re talking about this, though.

94 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:18:51pm

re: #92 Sergey Romanov

War on Terriers.

War on Tiaras.

95 albusteve  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:18:57pm

so what was the question again?

96 recusancy  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:19:20pm

re: #93 Obdicut

Okay, here’s the full text for that one:

[Link: avalon.law.yale.edu…]

He’s putting the bar of doing something at “Share information on terrorism
if you’ve got it”, which doesn’t actually sound that bad to me. But he’s putting it in oddly blustery terms.

I’m honestly not really sure why we’re talking about this, though.

We’re discussing nuance. Or lack thereof.

97 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:19:30pm

re: #95 albusteve

so what was the question again?

“Why do you hate America?”

98 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:19:32pm

re: #96 recusancy

We’re discussing nuance.

Bush was bad at nuance.

99 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:19:37pm

re: #94 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

War on Tiaras.

War on Torreros.

100 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:19:48pm

re: #90 Sergey Romanov

Really. That second statement is not ascribed to Bush. Duh.

We must be reading two different things.

101 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:19:51pm

re: #95 albusteve

so what was the question again?

42?

102 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:20:19pm

re: #88 ggt

‘the next step’, as in further down the line. You’d be right if I’d said ‘its the same as…’

re: #89 Obdicut

Then we’re misunderstanding each other :p

As I read it you’re basically saying “You can’t speculate on their motivations you don’t really know”. And I’m saying ‘of course you can speculate! Anybody can speculate on anything!”

103 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:20:36pm

re: #93 Obdicut

Okay, here’s the full text for that one:

[Link: avalon.law.yale.edu…]

He’s putting the bar of doing something at “Share information on terrorism
if you’ve got it”, which doesn’t actually sound that bad to me. But he’s putting it in oddly blustery terms.

I’m honestly not really sure why we’re talking about this, though.

because I interpreted Winsagio’s #50 as calling Bush a racist.

104 recusancy  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:20:46pm

re: #100 ggt

We must be reading two different things.

That second statement was about the antisemitism discussion.

105 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:21:50pm

re: #100 ggt

We must be reading two different things.

Yes, I’m reading what windsagio has written. He hasn’t written anything about either Bush’s speech being racist (which is what you seem to claim), nor that he has accused anyone of being a racist.

106 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:22:09pm

re: #99 Sergey Romanov

War on Torreros.

War on Terrines.

107 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:22:36pm

re: #105 Sergey Romanov

Yes, I’m reading what windsagio has written. He hasn’t written anything about either Bush’s speech being racist (which is what you seem to claim), nor that he has accused anyone of being a racist.

If you say so.

108 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:22:41pm

re: #102 windsagio

As I read it you’re basically saying “You can’t speculate on their motivations you don’t really know”.

Nope. I’m saying that they’re too incoherent an organization— or at least appear to be, from everything I’ve seen— to have any unifying motivation.

It’s like GOP anti-black voting stuff. Some of it comes from real racism, I’m sure. A lot of it comes from wanting to suppress people who vote democrat in particular. Some of it probably comes from their general desire to lower voter turnout. Etc.

109 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:22:49pm

re: #93 Obdicut

t really sure why we’re talking about this, though.

We’re talking about it because its reflective of the reaction to the remarks that kilgore posted… which is a definite ‘with us or against us’ mindset.

110 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:23:28pm

re: #105 Sergey Romanov

Yes, I’m reading what windsagio has written. He hasn’t written anything about either Bush’s speech being racist (which is what you seem to claim), nor that he has accused anyone of being a racist.

Being called “racist” or accused of “racism” is a badge of honor.

111 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:24:02pm

re: #103 ggt

because I interpreted Winsagio’s #50 as calling Bush a racist.

That just doesn’t make sense then, because even if the second statement pertained to Bush (which it doesn’t), it would be Bush accusing people of being racists, not Bush being racist.

112 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:24:25pm

re: #107 ggt

If you say so.

Basically, yes.

113 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:24:28pm

re: #109 windsagio

We’re talking about it because its reflective of the reaction to the remarks that kilgore posted… which is a definite ‘with us or against us’ mindset.

Ah, I get it. That makes sense. This is where Venn Diagrams come in handy; the overlap between ‘Anti-Israel’ and ‘anti-Semite’ is very large, but not in any way total.

114 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:24:33pm

re: #108 Obdicut

seroiusly man, I said ‘you know how it is, I think it but I can’t prove it’

and you said

I don’t actually know how that is.

at the very least rank pedantry.

115 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:26:43pm

re: #114 windsagio

Okay. I don’t know how this particular instance is, because you’re talking about a group that’s diverse enough that no one particular motivation could be ascribed to them. I don’t know how it is to believe something about the motives of a large and fractious group, since what I believe about those groups is that they don’t have unifying motives— and I think that position can be pretty well-supported.

116 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:26:55pm

re: #106 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

War on Terrines.

War on Tor.

117 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:27:19pm

re: #113 Obdicut

Ah, I get it. That makes sense. This is where Venn Diagrams come in handy; the overlap between ‘Anti-Israel’ and ‘anti-Semite’ is very large, but not in any way total.

That’s the tricky thing, there’s a tendency of people to treat not even anti-israel but not sufficiently pro-israel statements/positions as antisemitic, and that’s just sloppy thinking, if not rhetorical slight-of-hand.

118 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:27:30pm

re: #96 recusancy

We’re discussing nuance.

Sounds French!

119 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:28:03pm

re: #115 Obdicut

can’t argue with that :D

It does beg a question though, I wonder how much of a unified leadership Hamas actually has?

120 albusteve  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:28:06pm

when your pedantry becomes rank, time to change them

121 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:28:19pm

re: #116 Sergey Romanov

War on Tor.

War on Tor Johnson

122 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:29:08pm

re: #120 albusteve

when your pedantry becomes rank, time to change them

my pe(n)dants are almost always rank, if you get my drift.

It gets a bit awkward in public restrooms.

123 recusancy  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:29:52pm

re: #120 albusteve

when your pedantry becomes rank, time to change them

Or comment on the pedantry being rank!

124 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:29:52pm

re: #120 albusteve

Your subject is singular, but your pronoun is plural.

/Pedants are forever

125 Stanley Sea  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:30:35pm

re: #95 albusteve

so what was the question again?

Freedom fries or French fries. Make the choice America!

I swear that was one of the most embarrassing things, so immature!

126 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:30:39pm

bbiab

127 albusteve  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:30:42pm

re: #124 Obdicut

Your subject is singular, but your pronoun is plural.

/Pedants are forever

English is my third language

128 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:31:05pm

re: #125 Stanley Sea

Freedom fries or French fries. Make the choice America!

I swear that was one of the most embarrassing things, so immature!

I’m not sure they were worse than liberty steaks!

(edit: I can’t find any evidence that they actually called burgers that in WW1, apparently thats where salisbury steak comes from tho’)

129 Stanley Sea  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:32:20pm

re: #128 windsagio

I’m not sure they were worse than liberty steaks!

I can’t recall what our fucking congress changed French toast to. ??

130 recusancy  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:33:17pm

re: #129 Stanley Sea

I can’t recall what our fucking congress changed French toast to. ??

freedumb

131 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:33:25pm

re: #117 windsagio

Different degrees:
critical of some of day-to-day Israel’s policy
critical of fundamentals of Israel’s policy
anti-Israel (i.e. biased against most anything Israel does as a state, though not necessarily against Israelis)
anti-Israeli (i.e. biased against Israelis)
anti-Zionist (which could really mean a lot of things, because Zionism means a lot of things, which don’t necessarily boil down to “Israel has a right to exist as a state with the ethnic Jewish basis”)
antisemitic

All different, though may be overlapping. Yet these terms often are used interchangeably.

132 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:33:35pm

re: #117 windsagio

That’s the tricky thing, there’s a tendency of people to treat not even anti-israel but not sufficiently pro-israel statements/positions as antisemitic, and that’s just sloppy thinking, if not rhetorical slight-of-hand.

Once again you’re verging into dangerous territory. That knife cuts both ways. A lot of people on the left consider any criticism of Israel will result in being labeled an antisemite. Just like wingnuts pretend that any criticism of Obama will result in accusations of racism. Genuinely hateful people (David Duke, George Galloway, etc) use this as cover to legitimize genuinely hateful ideologies.

133 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:33:37pm

re: #121 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

War on Tor Johnson

War on T-Rex.

134 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:33:58pm

Speaking of jingoistic lols

The salsa’s slogan was “Deport Bad Taste.”

135 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:34:01pm

re: #125 Stanley Sea

Freedom fries or French fries. Make the choice America!

I swear that was one of the most embarrassing things, so immature!

That was another iteration of that idiotic “with us or against us” stupidity, too.

136 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:34:51pm

Apropos “War on…”:

D.E.A. Launders Mexican Profits of Drug Cartels

Money quotes:

One D.E.A. official said it was not unusual for American agents to pick up two or three loads of Mexican drug money each week.

…

When asked how much money had been laundered as a part of the operations, the official would only say, “A lot.”

…

So far there are few signs that following the money has disrupted the cartels’ operations, and little evidence that Mexican drug traffickers are feeling any serious financial pain. Last year, the D.E.A. seized about $1 billion in cash and drug assets, while Mexico seized an estimated $26 million in money laundering investigations, a tiny fraction of the estimated $18 billion to $39 billion in drug money that flows between the countries each year.

…

The former officials said that the drug agency tried to seize as much money as it laundered — partly in the fees the operatives charged traffickers for their services and another part in carefully choreographed arrests at pickup points identified by their undercover operatives.

…

And the former officials said that federal law enforcement agencies had to seek Justice Department approval to launder amounts greater than $10 million in any single operation. But they said that the cap was treated more as a guideline than a rule, and that it had been waived on many occasions to attract the interest of high-value targets.

[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

137 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:35:02pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

sergey stated it pretty well.

Naturally its a complex thing and people on all sides like to self-justify. That’s the human condition :D

138 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:36:14pm

re: #137 windsagio

That’s human nature. I’m not personally bothered by that!

//sorry

139 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:36:37pm

also hilarious

Iran apparently renamed ‘Danishes’ ‘Roses of the Prophed Muhammad’ for a while >>

edit: Just to show it’s not just Americans that do insane food renamings for poltiics.

140 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:40:19pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Once again you’re verging into dangerous territory. That knife cuts both ways. A lot of people on the left consider any criticism of Israel will result in being labeled an antisemite. Just like wingnuts pretend that any criticism of Obama will result in accusations of racism. Genuinely hateful people (David Duke, George Galloway, etc) use this as cover to legitimize genuinely hateful ideologies.

Too simplistic. Yer forgetting that there are a lot of people who will jump at the chance to be called “a racist”, then point and cry about it as if they have been victimized (especially true when the one supposedly doing the calling is Black.)

With antisemitism, there is also the misuse of the term “Semite” to deflect critiques of actual, Wilhelm Marr Judenhaß antisemitism. E.g. Helen Thomas, WELL! I am a SEMITE! SO I can’t be Anti-Semitic!! That sort of nonsense.

141 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:40:52pm

re: #133 Sergey Romanov

War on T-Rex.

War on Trusses

142 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:41:46pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Once again you’re verging into dangerous territory. That knife cuts both ways. A lot of people on the left consider any criticism of Israel will result in being labeled an antisemite. Just like wingnuts pretend that any criticism of Obama will result in accusations of racism. Genuinely hateful people (David Duke, George Galloway, etc) use this as cover to legitimize genuinely hateful ideologies.

You’re correct that that’s the often used excuse, not necessarily on the left. US-wise, paleo-right will tell you the same thing.
AFAIC, both trends should be opposed.
Lots of antisemites will hide under Israel-critical and anti-Zionist rhetoric. (I would think such attempts are rather transparent, as they usually can’t help themselves.)
Lots of “ultra-Zionists” will also accuse many critics of Israel’s policies of being antisemitic because that’s a neat way to dispose of criticism.
I dunno, I can hold both concepts in my head at the same time.

143 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:42:06pm

re: #140 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

well its like calling Arabs antisemitic, we all know what people mean, but my own inner pedant gets annoyed :D

144 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:42:22pm

re: #141 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

War on Trusses

War on Terra.

145 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:46:48pm

re: #144 Sergey Romanov

War on Terra.

War on Tara

146 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:47:15pm

re: #145 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

War on Tara

War on Torus.

147 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:50:46pm

OK, United Russia up to 48.75%. Surprise of the day: the Just Russia party did enter the Duma (I thought they would be out), and not only that, currently (with 39% of votes counted) they’re leading LDPR (13.07% v. 12.66%).

148 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:54:23pm

For comparison, during the 2007 elections UR got 64.3%, CPRF 11.57%, LDPR 8.14%, JR 7.74%.

149 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:54:42pm

U.S. official says no sign Iran shot down drone

Iranian media reported on Sunday that their country’s military had shot down a U.S. reconnaissance drone in eastern Iran, but a U.S. official said there was no indication the aircraft had been shot down.

NATO’s U.S.-led mission in neighbouring Afghanistan said the Iranian report could refer to an unarmed U.S. spy drone that went missing there last week.

150 windsagio  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:56:38pm

re: #149 Killgore Trout

you gotta love that phrasing,

151 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 12:58:57pm

re: #147 Sergey Romanov

Medvedev (who is at the head of UR’s list) will probably be blamed for the decrease in popularity of the party. He’s a convenient scapegoat, since the party faithful can’t stand him (too liberal, too pro-Western; relatively speaking, of course).

152 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:01:11pm

re: #147 Sergey Romanov

Finally, the gut tells me that the real amount of votes for UR was ~%30. And if the elections were fair, i.e. without the fear factor, pressure, and with equal access to MSM, they would be getting maybe 20-25% max, prolly lower.

153 albusteve  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:01:27pm

re: #151 Sergey Romanov

Medvedev (who is at the head of UR’s list) will probably be blamed for the decrease in popularity of the party. He’s a convenient scapegoat, since the party faithful can’t stand him (too liberal, too pro-Western; relatively speaking, of course).

he wears Wranglers

154 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:02:44pm

re: #153 albusteve

he wears Wranglers

He could have been a not-bad president - by Russian standards, that is. Alas, Putin.

155 albusteve  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:04:07pm

re: #154 Sergey Romanov

He could have been a not-bad president - by Russian standards, that is. Alas, Putin.

indeed….Putin is a scary dude

156 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:06:07pm

re: #155 albusteve

indeed…Putin is a scary dude

Image: Vladomir-Putin.jpg

I wonder if he has any ancestors from Innsmouth.

157 albusteve  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:06:58pm

re: #156 Sergey Romanov

Image: th_Vladomir-Putin-left.jpg

I wonder if he has any ancestors from Innsmouth.

that’s not Putin, that’s Charlie Watts….isn’t it?

158 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:07:33pm

re: #157 albusteve

I put in another pic.

159 albusteve  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:09:58pm

re: #158 Sergey Romanov

I put in another pic.

I see…Charlie Watts
[Link: 3.bp.blogspot.com…]

160 Stanley Sea  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:10:26pm

re: #156 Sergey Romanov

Image: Vladomir-Putin.jpg

I wonder if he has any ancestors from Innsmouth.

What’s his soul say?

161 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:11:09pm

re: #160 Stanley Sea

What’s his soul say?

Fishes are notoriously silent. /

162 albusteve  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:13:40pm

re: #161 Sergey Romanov

Fishes are notoriously silent. /

I smelt another fish pun there

163 blueraven  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:14:29pm

re: #160 Stanley Sea

What’s his soul say?

Look into his eyes…the window to the soul.
*barf*

164 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:15:28pm

re: #163 blueraven

Look into his eyes…the window to the soul.
*barf*

A good man, obviously! /

165 Lidane  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:16:46pm

WTF Fox?

They just literally cut from the Texans/Falcons game with :08 left in the 4th to go to commercial then start showing the Cowboys game.

FAIL. OMG. Is it that hard to wait a few seconds to let a game end?

166 allegro  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:19:41pm

re: #165 Lidane

WTF Fox?

They just literally cut from the Texans/Falcons game with :08 left in the 4th to go to commercial then start showing the Cowboys game.

FAIL. OMG. Is it that hard to wait a few seconds to let a game end?

Was it close?

167 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:22:03pm

re: #147 Sergey Romanov

OK, United Russia up to 48.75%. Surprise of the day: the Just Russia party did enter the Duma (I thought they would be out), and not only that, currently (with 39% of votes counted) they’re leading LDPR (13.07% v. 12.66%).

btw, did you see this?:

[Link: www.tagesschau.de…]

168 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:23:09pm

re: #167 000G

Yes, I read about that.

169 Lidane  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:23:41pm

re: #166 allegro

Was it close?

Houston was up by 7, but the Falcons had the ball and were making a decent run down the field.

Fox just cut away from the end to show commercials then go right to the Cowboys. It’s annoying.

170 allegro  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:24:54pm

re: #169 Lidane

Houston was up by 7, but the Falcons had the ball and were making a decent run down the field.

Fox just cut away from the end to show commercials then go right to the Cowboys. It’s annoying.

If there was time and opportunity to tie the score, I get the annoyance! That blows.

171 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:25:11pm

re: #152 Sergey Romanov

Finally, the gut tells me that the real amount of votes for UR was ~%30. And if the elections were fair, i.e. without the fear factor, pressure, and with equal access to MSM, they would be getting maybe 20-25% max, prolly lower.

At least they’re under 50 %, which in the context of the conditions of the elections is an obvious fail. So, congrats!

172 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:25:57pm

51% of ballots:
UR: 49,6
CPRF: 19,72
JR: 12,93
LDPR: 12,21

173 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:26:53pm

re: #171 000G

Oh, they will draw the missing percentage points, doncha worry. They’re already close.

174 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:28:25pm

re: #173 Sergey Romanov

Oh, they will draw the missing percentage points, doncha worry. They’re already close.

Anyhow, the desparation is palpable.

175 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:29:26pm

re: #169 Lidane

Houston was up by 7, but the Falcons had the ball and were making a decent run down the field.

Fox just cut away from the end to show commercials then go right to the Cowboys. It’s annoying.

They did the same in CT with the Tebow game … They suck

176 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:30:48pm

re: #171 000G

The participation was officially ~50%. Let’s assume this as correct. 50% of them for UR. Even assuming this falsified number, that means only 25% of citizens cared to vote for UR. In reality the number was lower.

On the other hand, I consider the votes for LDPR and CPRF to be “bad” too.

177 Stanley Sea  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:32:11pm

re: #175 _RememberTonyC

They did the same in CT with the Tebow game … They suck

I guess because I’m in the west I saw it end . Heh, Tebow!!!

178 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:34:43pm

re: #177 Stanley Sea

I guess because I’m in the west I saw it end . Heh, Tebow!!!

I like him … He is clutch

179 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:34:51pm

For the WWII buffs
WWII guncamera archival footage with mind-boggling view of Mistels getting shot down

Liveleak Video

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of them before: Mistel Composite Aircraft
There’s even a creepy shot of a tailgunner bailing out at low altitude. Pretty amazing stuff.
180 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:35:13pm

re: #169 Lidane

Houston was up by 7, but the Falcons had the ball and were making a decent run down the field.

Fox just cut away from the end to show commercials then go right to the Cowboys. It’s annoying.

NFL Red Zone.

best
channel
eva

181 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:35:51pm

re: #177 Stanley Sea

I guess because I’m in the west I saw it end . Heh, Tebow!!!

Tebow!! Unbelievable!

182 HoosierHoops  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:37:08pm

re: #178 _RememberTonyC

I like him … He is clutch

They ended our broadcast of the Bronco’s early.. I take it Tebow did it again?
I still think Cam is the greatest rookie QB I’ve ever seen

183 Stanley Sea  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:38:26pm

re: #178 _RememberTonyC

I like him … He is clutch

I hope he can maintain, but he always has.

184 Stanley Sea  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:39:53pm

re: #182 HoosierHoops

They ended our broadcast of the Bronco’s early.. I take it Tebow did it again?
I still think Cam is the greatest rookie QB I’ve ever seen

Took it down to 2 seconds then kicked field goal to win. Is Elway always on the sidelines?

185 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:39:53pm

re: #182 HoosierHoops

They ended our broadcast of the Bronco’s early.. I take it Tebow did it again?
I still think Cam is the greatest rookie QB I’ve ever seen

Didn’t see the last drive, but DEN kicked a FG at the final gun to win it in MIN.

186 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:41:14pm

re: #183 Stanley Sea

I hope he can maintain, but he always has.

He just wins games … What the fuck else is he supposed to do to shut people up? I like his style.

187 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:41:37pm

I don’t know what I find more obnoxious, Skyrim talk or football talk.

188 Stanley Sea  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:42:22pm

re: #185 _RememberTonyC

Didn’t see the last drive, but DEN kicked a FG at the final gun to win it in MIN.

They got to the 2.

189 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:42:42pm

re: #187 000G

Good that you mentioned Skyrim.
So I have a question - does anybody actually read those books?

190 HoosierHoops  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:43:02pm

re: #185 _RememberTonyC

Didn’t see the last drive, but DEN kicked a FG at the final gun to win it in MIN.

Another win on the road? I haven’t seen the Media eating so much crow since they declared Hillary would win the Nomination…( Awkward)_

191 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:43:22pm

re: #182 HoosierHoops

They ended our broadcast of the Bronco’s early.. I take it Tebow did it again?
I still think Cam is the greatest rookie QB I’ve ever seen

Cam is special too … He and Tebow both led SEC teams to the national championship.

192 Stanley Sea  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:43:26pm

re: #186 _RememberTonyC

He just wins games … What the fuck else is he supposed to do to shut people up? I like his style.

First soph to win the heisman!

193 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:45:58pm

re: #192 Stanley Sea

First soph to win the heisman!

People are jealous of him … He seems to have it all and small minded people hate that.

194 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:47:26pm

re: #187 000G

I don’t know what I find more obnoxious, Skyrim talk or football talk.

I know what football is, skyrim? Not so much.

195 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:48:13pm

re: #194 _RememberTonyC

I know what football is, skyrim? Not so much.

Same, vice versa :)

196 albusteve  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:51:31pm

Tebow is god’s special project

197 Stanley Sea  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:52:22pm

First I’ve heard about Stephen King’s new novel 11/22/63

[Link: www.biography.com…]

Looks like I need to go buy tonight!

198 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:55:32pm

re: #189 Sergey Romanov

Good that you mentioned Skyrim.
So I have a question - does anybody actually read those books?

Only the journals.

199 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:56:16pm

re: #198 Aceofwhat?

Well, yeah.

200 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:57:13pm

re: #197 Stanley Sea

First I’ve heard about Stephen King’s new novel 11/22/63

[Link: www.biography.com…]

Looks like I need to go buy tonight!

Yes, I was waiting for it, and was reminded about it today. Gotta get it as well as Mile 81 e-book.

201 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 1:59:18pm

re: #199 Sergey Romanov

Well, yeah.

Although I do put my books on a bookshelf in one of my houses once i realize i’m carrying a lot of them around. That’s not as nerdy as reading them, but it’s definitely nerdy.

202 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 2:00:17pm

re: #201 Aceofwhat?

I just threw them all away beyond the bare minimum. And I don’t own a house (you capitalist pig!). BTW, do thieves steal from your house?

203 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 2:03:32pm

re: #202 Sergey Romanov

I just threw them all away beyond the bare minimum. And I don’t own a house (you capitalist pig!). BTW, do thieves steal from your house?

No, your stuff is safe as long as you put it in something in a house that you own (in a chest, wardrobe, safe, etc).

And what else are you going to do with the 150k in gold or so that you’ll otherwise accumulate? Might as well buy somewhere safe to put your stuff and your wife. I do love that you can move in with your wife if you don’t have a house when you get married.

204 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 2:05:00pm

re: #203 Aceofwhat?

Haha, didn’t know. Well, yeah, compared to you I’ve just only started playing, so I don’t have 150K yet, but I can afford a house with no problem. I guess I’ll buy one. Do you own one in each hold?

205 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 2:08:59pm

re: #204 Sergey Romanov

Haha, didn’t know. Well, yeah, compared to you I’ve just only started playing, so I don’t have 150K yet, but I can afford a house with no problem. I guess I’ll buy one. Do you own one in each hold?

No, i’m about 2/3 of the way through and i own three. In some holds it’s simple; do a few favors for the local Jarl, earn the right to buy a house. In other holds, i did the same thing and wasn’t offered a house for sale. So although i would guess that you can buy one in each hold, I haven’t been actively looking for them if it’s not obvious.

206 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 2:10:33pm

re: #205 Aceofwhat?

I’ve been offered ~3 houses. Speaking of thievery again, at least in Riften is it safe to buy one and store things? Yes, I had to re-ask considering I’m talking about Riften ;)

207 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 2:15:17pm

re: #206 Sergey Romanov

I’ve been offered ~3 houses. Speaking of thievery again, at least in Riften is it safe to buy one and store things? Yes, I had to re-ask considering I’m talking about Riften ;)

You know, i’m not sure…i’ve been hanging out with the guild in Riften rather than with the Jarl, so i haven’t been offered a house yet. No trouble in Whiterun, Solitude, or Markarth yet though!

208 prairiefire  Sun, Dec 4, 2011 2:27:26pm

re: #207 Aceofwhat?

Hey! Is the game worth the price?


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