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Sarah Palin’s Word Salad of the Day, With Extra Satan

The lamestream media are all wee-weed up agin
Wingnuts • Views: 28,032

Today’s fresh word salad from the half-governor finds her defending Rick Santorum against the persecution of the dreaded lamestream media, who are all wee-weed up just because Santorum thinks Satan is systematically destroying America.

Liberals! Can’t live with 'em, can’t exorcise 'em.

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392 comments

1 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:37:32am

Does extra Satan on your word salad add to its sinfullness like adding bacon bits to your regular salad adds calories? (But, oh, what it does to the flavor.)

2 dragonfire1981  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:38:48am

Hannity is also in fine form in the this clip. Silliness all around.

As to Palin's comment wondering how Liberals could get so freaked out over the mention of Satan, she fails to understand the reasons for the controversy:

1) The United States has no established religion. Satan is most commonly tied to Christianity. To many it seems inappropriate for a Presidential nominee to make such a statement.

2) To many people the threat Satan poses to America is equivalent to the threat Godzilla poses to America, which is to say none at all.

3 dragonfire1981  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:39:30am

Something just occurred to me: Anyone notice Palin always sounds like she's addressing children when she speaks?

4 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:39:40am

"All wee-weed up" is what my mother used to say before we went on a long road trip.

"Make sure you go to the wee wee room!"

5 dragonfire1981  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:41:42am

Also, OT but I predict the following will be the source of the next right wing outrage:

President Obama apologized Thursday in a letter to Afghan President Hamid Karzai for the burning of Korans at the largest American military base in Afghanistan. The incident at Bagram Air Base has fueled days of angry protests in the war-torn country, according to the White House and Karzai's office.

"I wish to express my deep regret for the reported incident," Karzai's office quoted Obama as saying in the message. "The error was inadvertent; I assure you that we will take the appropriate steps to avoid any recurrence, to include holding accountable those responsible."

Three days of protests over the incident have left 14 people dead, including two American soldiers shot dead when an Afghan soldier turned his weapon on them at their base in Khogyani in eastern Nangarhar province, district governor Mohammad Hassan told AFP.

White House officials declined to challenge the wording.

The outrage of course, will be that Obama is bowing to the whim of a Muslim nation and showing the Quran more respect than the Bible.

6 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:42:54am

Saw this the other day...my favorite part of that interview is where she talks about the way her words were used against her in the "Vice-Presidential race" in 2008...

7 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:44:06am

re: #5 dragonfire1981

Also, OT but I predict the following will be the source of the next right wing outrage:

The outrage of course, will be that Obama is bowing to the whim of a Muslim nation and showing the Quran more respect than the Bible.

Obama's trying to reduce attacks on American troops. Short of bringing them home, this is the right thing to do...someone fucked up, holy books were burned, and word got out about it.

8 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:44:27am

Why is it that anytime someone mentions Satan, the first thing I think of is Church Lady?

[Link: www.hulu.com...]

9 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:46:01am
10 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:46:47am

re: #8 lawhawk

and who knew she could play the drums!?

11 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:47:13am

This is the same Sarah Palin who praised the witch hunting pastor from Kenya. Yeah, she's got a lot of credibility.
/

12 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:47:35am

re: #7 darthstar

Obama's trying to reduce attacks on American troops. Short of bringing them home, this is the right thing to do...someone fucked up, holy books were burned, and word got out about it.

He (we) are in a tough spot. I understand the generals and the C-I-C coming out and saying "sorry about that"....but someone needs to tell them it's 2012 and to grow the hell up. 17 dead over a book being burned? Seriously? I miss Hitchens.

13 Charleston Chew  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:47:43am

I'm not religious, and yet I'm not afraid to boldly proclaim that there is good and evil.

You are evil, Sarah Palin. You, too, Hannity.

14 thatthatisis  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:48:17am

When people like Palin, Santorum and Perry talk about God, I get the sense they see God as loving America and Israel, and no one else, since America is "exceptional". Then inside America, God seems to favor Republicans. So their God is a conservative Republican who loves America first, and who doesn't cotton to those elites in the northeast.

To quote the title of a famous book, the problem with Palin et al is that their God is just too small.

15 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:48:44am

re: #5 dragonfire1981

Also, OT but I predict the following will be the source of the next right wing outrage:


The outrage of course, will be that Obama is bowing to the whim of a Muslim nation and showing the Quran more respect than the Bible.

Although I understand the apology, I have no sympathy or understanding or respect for the violent reaction to this completely inadvertent incident, and I never will. It is disgusting and revolting. No matter how much sensitivity we show, every mistake brings violence and death, and it is sickening. Religion is out of control.

16 simoom  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:48:51am

Speaking of ex-Gov. Palin, Romney's final debate answer last night was kind of Palin-esque:

[Link: archives.cnn.com...]

KING: I want to close with this question: Help the voters who still have questions about you. What is the biggest misconception about you in the public debate right now?

...

KING: Governor Romney?

ROMNEY: We've got to restore America's promise in this country where people know that with hard work and education, that they're going to be secure and prosperous and that their kids will have a brighter future than they've had. For that to happen, we're going to have to have dramatic fundamental change in Washington, D.C., we're going to have to create more jobs, have less debt, and shrink the size of the government.

I'm the only person in this race --

KING: Is there a misconception about you? The question is a misconception.

ROMNEY: You know, you get to ask the questions you want, I get to give the answers I want.

KING: Fair enough. (whimper)

John King didn't really whimper, I added that in (:P), but he may as well have with how quickly he folded. Romney completely ignored the question, didn't even bother with a segue, and just began reciting his memorized closing remarks, King called him on it and Romney completely blew him off.

17 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:50:13am

re: #15 Tigger2005

Although I understand the apology, I have no sympathy or understanding or respect for the violent reaction to this completely inadvertent incident, and I never will. It is disgusting and revolting. No matter how much sensitivity we show, every mistake brings violence and death, and it is sickening. Religion is out of control.

Sure, but who here excuses it? Yes, fundies will always react violently, this just should be taken into account.

18 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:51:38am

re: #17 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Sure, but who here excuses it? Yes, fundies will always react violently, this just should be taken into account.

Fundies don't always react violently. Of course there is always that potential.

19 AK-47%  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:52:11am

re: #15 Tigger2005

Although I understand the apology, I have no sympathy or understanding or respect for the violent reaction to this completely inadvertent incident, and I never will. It is disgusting and revolting. No matter how much sensitivity we show, every mistake brings violence and death, and it is sickening. Religion is out of control.

It was certainly instrumentalized by some self-serving politicians in Afghanistan as well, not unlike the folks behind the Mohammed cartoon blowup.

20 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:52:56am

re: #16 simoom

Speaking of ex-Gov. Palin, Romney's final debate answer last night was kind of Palin-esque:

[Link: archives.cnn.com...]

[Embedded content]John King didn't really whimper, I added that in (:P), but he may as well have with how quickly he folded. Romney completely ignored the question, didn't even bother with a segue, and just began reciting his memorized closing remarks, King called him on it and Romney completely blew him off.

Moderators should not be straight men. I thought that King fucked up the same way he did when Newt went after him. To be honest, moderators can't be in fear for their career or reputation. They need to be college professors from Europe or some place other than the US. Perhaps then we could get an actual debate where participants were penalized for failing to address the question, or were at the very least called out, stopped, and ignored for the remainder.

21 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:53:15am

Newsflash for Hannity and Palin. Santorum's speech wasn't about good and evil regarding a common enemy such as Imperial Japan during WWII but instead a long anti-intellectual diatribe against what he perceives or set-up as liberal institutions within American society. Not only was it an attack on academia he went as far as attacking the "Protestant church" itself speaking as though he was a moral authority as if he were Pope of America.

22 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:53:37am

re: #2 dragonfire1981

2) To many people the threat Satan poses to America is equivalent to the threat Godzilla poses to America, which is to say none at all.

Shhh! The big green guy has very good hearing.

But I am a lot more worried about Cthulhu myself.

23 Charleston Chew  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:54:00am

re: #6 darthstar

Saw this the other day...my favorite part of that interview is where she talks about the way her words were used against her in the "Vice-Presidential race" in 2008...

I've heard people refer to the election as the "race for the White House"...

but I've never heard it called the "race for Number One Observatory Circle on the grounds of the United States Naval Observatory!"

24 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:54:07am

re: #18 Tigger2005

Fundies don't always react violently. Of course there is always that potential.

Well, OK, fundies in theocratic regimes will always react violently when you burn their holy books.

25 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:54:20am

re: #21 Gus

Newsflash for Hannity and Palin. Santorum's speech wasn't about good and evil regarding a common enemy such as Imperial Japan during WWII but instead a long anti-intellectual diatribe against what he perceives or set-up as liberal institutions within American society. Not only was it an attack on academia he went as far as attacking the "Protestant church" itself speaking as though he was a moral authority as if he were Pope of America.

Well, he isn't the Pope of America yet. But I would call his odds 50/50 at this point.

26 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:54:35am

re: #16 simoom

John King didn't really whimper, I added that in (:P), but he may as well have with how quickly he folded. Romney completely ignored the question, didn't even bother with a segue, and just began reciting his memorized closing remarks, King called him on it and Romney completely blew him off.

I'll give King a pass. He had a serious time limitation and there would be little point in any further confrontation after calling Romney on his BS once. Romney is the only one coming off looking bad - like the privileged ass he is.

27 simoom  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:55:07am

re: #20 Petero1818

Yeah, if candidates can completely ignore the moderator and the rules, and say whatever they like, why even have a moderator and why even call it a debate? Instead just have the candidates alternate between each other reciting their prepared remarks.

28 dragonfire1981  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:55:17am

Let me go on the record as saying I think burning Holy Books is a bad idea in general, regardless of how you feel about the religion they are a part of.

29 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:55:48am

Do people really, actually believe in Satan?

A relative of mine joined the "Church of Satan" and sold his soul to Satan. I don't know if he really worshipped some ripped, red-skinned guy with horns and a tail, I think he joined just in order to snort the best cocaine and fuck teenage "altar virgins."

Satan didn't help when he got arrested on drug charges and sex with juveniles.

30 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:55:56am

Ooh. Word salad. That reminds me -- I need to toss together some veggies to take with me to snack on between classes.

Caribou Barbie is as silly and incoherent as she always is. No surprise there. The only surprise is that anyone still takes her seriously.

31 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:56:08am

The "corruption of manners"?

Image: jim-crow-laws.jpg

32 Charleston Chew  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:56:58am

re: #16 simoom

Speaking of ex-Gov. Palin, Romney's final debate answer last night was kind of Palin-esque:

[Link: archives.cnn.com...]

[Embedded content]John King didn't really whimper, I added that in (:P), but he may as well have with how quickly he folded. Romney completely ignored the question, didn't even bother with a segue, and just began reciting his memorized closing remarks, King called him on it and Romney completely blew him off.

I don't fault King for his deference. Romney answered the question: "You get to ask the questions you want, I get to give the answers I want" tells us everything we need to know about him.

33 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:58:04am

re: #28 dragonfire1981

Let me go on the record as saying I think burning Holy Books is a bad idea in general, regardless of how you feel about the religion they are a part of.

Yeah, but this was an accident. People are dead, people who had nothing to do with it, because of an unintentional incident. The mindset that leads to this just fills me with revulsion...makes my skin crawl. Like Santorum.

34 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:58:27am

Related:

Media Matters on The Truth About GOP Debate Questions

The Fox News talking point this morning was feigning shock that CNN moderator John King did not ask the candidates about rising gas prices, a topic Fox is now fervently devoted to. The lack of gas pump question was an obvious sign of "media bias".

This robotic ritual is beyond tiresome. But as debate season winds down it's worth noting how little validity there is to the endless debate protests.

For instance, even without a direct question about gas prices last night, candidates mentioned the topic six times during the debate.

35 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:58:53am

re: #27 simoom

Yeah, if candidates can completely ignore the moderator and the rules, and say whatever they like, why even have a moderator and why even call it a debate? Instead just have the candidates alternate between each other reciting their prepared remarks.

If we are ever graced again with Palin in a debate, you will see the worst offender. She is completely incapable of talking beyond her cue cards. Not only that, she was not even clever enough to present her cue card talking points in such a way as they seemed like they were relevant to the questions asked. She couldn't even segue into it. Go back and look at her VP debate performance. It was totally laughable. The fact that the pundits felt she did ok was ridiculous. She did ok for a speech. For a debate she was moronic.

36 nines09  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 9:59:52am

Every time I hear of her speaking somewhere all I can think is she needs more money. Apologies to those who actually speak.

37 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:00:28am

re: #34 jaunte

Related:

Media Matters on The Truth About GOP Debate Questions

I believe 2 of them mentioned it in their opening statements.

38 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:00:39am

re: #31 Gus

The "corruption of manners"?

Image: jim-crow-laws.jpg

Damn, this book just can't stop being handy.

And one more thing. In North Carolina, I stopped to gas up at a Humble Oil station, then walked around the corner to use the toilet. There were two doors and three signs. MEN was neatly stenciled over one door, LADIES over the other. The third sign was an arrow on a stick. It pointed toward the brush-covered slope behind the station. It said COLORED. Curious, I walked down the path, being careful to sidle at a couple of points where the oily, green-shading-to-maroon leaves of poison ivy were unmistakable. I hoped the dads and moms who might have led their children down to whatever facility waited below were able to identify those troublesome bushes for what they were, because in the late fifties most children wear short pants.
There was no facility. What I found at the end of the path was a narrow stream with a board laid across it on a couple of crumbling concrete posts. A man who had to urinate could just stand on the bank, unzip, and let fly. A woman could hold onto a bush (assuming it wasn’t poison ivy or poison oak) and squat. The board was what you sat on if you had to take a shit. Maybe in the pouring rain.
If I ever gave you the idea that 1958’s all Andy-n-Opie, remember the path, okay? The one lined with poison ivy. And the board over the stream.

39 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:01:00am

re: #33 Tigger2005

Yeah, but this was an accident. People are dead, people who had nothing to do with it, because of an unintentional incident. The mindset that leads to this just fills me with revulsion...makes my skin crawl. Like Santorum.

Do you think all these riots would have been avoided if a muslim soldier burned them with respect?

...Afghan religious scholar Anayatullah Baligh said it can be appropriate to burn a damaged Quran to dispose of it, but that it should be done by a Muslim who is performing the act respectfully.

"I can't tell you whether Americans intentionally burned the copies of the holy Quran to make Muslims angry or if they did it mistakenly," he said, but said their "carelessness" was "a crime they have committed against the holiest book of two billion Muslims around the world."

...

40 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:01:46am

re: #37 Petero1818

I believe 2 of them mentioned it in their opening statements.

Five dollar gas is the fondest hope quoted on Hot Air et al.

41 dragonfire1981  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:02:04am

Well I hate to say I called it, but a Twitter search on "Obama apologizes" results in the following list of tweets, many of them critical of the President:

[Link: twitter.com...]

42 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:03:38am

re: #40 Decatur Deb

None of the people complaining about the price of gas to bash the Obama presidency will accept that higher gas prices are just part of living in a developing global economy.

43 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:05:15am

re: #39 NJDhockeyfan

Do you think all these riots would have been avoided if a muslim soldier burned them with respect?

Sorry, I can't respect the opinion of this Afghan religious scholar either. I am sick unto death of religious insanity and irrationality, I don't care whose it is. Sick of it. Calling an honest mistake of burning some paper and ink a "crime" sufficient to incite violence and murder is Middle Ages thinking that has no place in the modern world.

44 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:05:49am

re: #38 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Damn, this book just can't stop being handy.

That whole nostalgia from Santorum about "culture" and "manners" is so typical from his side. They ironically have this Hollywood or storybook vision of a past that never existed. The average Joe has more culture then ever before in human history and they also have better manners. We're also a less warring society even on a global level.

45 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:07:04am

re: #43 Tigger2005

Sorry, I can't respect the opinion of this Afghan religious scholar either. I am sick unto death of religious insanity and irrationality, I don't care whose it is. Sick of it. Calling an honest mistake of burning some paper and ink a "crime" sufficient to incite violence and murder is Middle Ages thinking that has no place in the modern world.

True. But you won't change it any time soon.

46 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:07:46am

re: #44 Gus

That whole nostalgia from Santorum about "culture" and "manners" is so typical from his side. They ironically have this Hollywood or storybook vision of a past that never existed. The average Joe has more culture then ever before in human history and they also have better manners. We're also a less warring society even on a global level.

The whole Gone with the wind stuff.

47 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:08:06am

re: #45 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

True. But you won't change it any time soon.

Maybe we can avert nuclear war with Iran by mentioning all those Qu'rans that will go up in smoke.

48 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:09:06am

re: #47 Tigger2005

Maybe we can avert nuclear war with Iran by mentioning all those Qu'rans that will go up in smoke.

You're forgetting that they're the ones who can burn them. /

49 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:09:53am

re: #35 Petero1818

Go back and look at her VP debate performance. It was totally laughable. The fact that the pundits felt she did ok was ridiculous. She did ok for a speech. For a debate she was moronic.

I have family (university educated, mind you) who insist that she is sharp as a razor (they insist the same about Dan Quayle) and any evidence to the contrary has been selectively edited by the dastardly Stalinist media to make her look bad because she's just such a huge threat to 'ivory tower liberals' and blah blah. Anyone who disagrees "just doesn't get it", and the fault lies with the disagreer. I sure as hell don't get it.

50 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:10:33am

re: #48 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

You're forgetting that they're the ones who can burn them. /

But is shooting off nukes "performing the act respectfully"?

51 Charleston Chew  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:10:38am

re: #42 jaunte

None of the people complaining about the price of gas to bash the Obama presidency will accept that higher gas prices are just part of living in a developing global economy.

I can't help but imagine an aid suggesting to Romney that he should bring up $4 gas prices and Romney replying, "Is that good or bad? Help me out here. Is that a lot for gas?"

52 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:10:42am

re: #47 Tigger2005

Maybe we can avert nuclear war with Iran by mentioning all those Qu'rans that will go up in smoke.

Forget it. With all the bombing of mosques on almost a daily basis they should be seething all the time.

53 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:11:08am

re: #44 Gus

That whole nostalgia from Santorum about "culture" and "manners" is so typical from his side. They ironically have this Hollywood or storybook vision of a past that never existed. The average Joe has more culture then ever before in human history and they also have better manners. We're also a less warring society even on a global level.

Santorum is simply The Falange of the US. Nationalist, reactionary, Catholic - how was it put? Deus, Patria & Familia? Straight out of the run up to the Spanish Civil War.

Hey Santorum? Francisco Franco is still dead.

54 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:11:12am

I've never heard Evil being called "Satan" before, and not in Sunday School.

We did, however, spend a lot of time on Lashon Hara

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It's too bad Palin never cracked open the Hebrew Bible and read it. She'd say a lot less stupid.

(Did she really say "Lamestream Media" in that clip? It's noisy here and I wasn't sure what she said.)

55 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:12:04am

re: #43 Tigger2005

Sorry, I can't respect the opinion of this Afghan religious scholar either. I am sick unto death of religious insanity and irrationality, I don't care whose it is. Sick of it. Calling an honest mistake of burning some paper and ink a "crime" sufficient to incite violence and murder is Middle Ages thinking that has no place in the modern world.

No but as an occupying force you're trying to win or maintain hearts and minds. Of course it doesn't make sense to us. But it's not really all about is and it includes them. Likely it was an honest mistake instead of some protest by one lone soldier. Their response was irrational but that's the way they are and we can't change that anytime soon . Pakistan itself has shown as much with the assassination of secular leaders; blasphemy laws; etc. If one were to use and example of say, Poland, and you set up an occupying force there I don't think it would be a good idea to discard of Bibles by tossing them into an incinerator.

56 Charleston Chew  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:12:19am

re: #44 Gus

That whole nostalgia from Santorum about "culture" and "manners" is so typical from his side. They ironically have this Hollywood or storybook vision of a past that never existed. The average Joe has more culture then ever before in human history and they also have better manners. We're also a less warring society even on a global level.

Besides, when people like him talk about manners they only imagine it going one way - other people being nice to him.

57 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:12:31am

re: #50 Tigger2005

But is shooting off nukes "performing the act respectfully"?

OK, this has veered somewhere off the road.

58 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:13:28am

re: #55 Gus

If you started burning Bibles in Ireland, there'd be riots too.

59 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:13:34am

*siren*
BUCK SIGHTING!
*siren*

60 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:13:42am

IOW. An occupying force has to in large part play the role of an anthropologist.

61 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:14:35am

re: #54 reuven

I've never heard Evil being called "Satan" before, and not in Sunday School.

We did, however, spend a lot of time on Lashon Hora

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It's too bad Palin never cracked open the Hebrew Bible and read it. She'd say a lot less stupid.

I've found that studying commentaries on the Torah & the Pirke Avot have had a profound impact on my understanding of and living out of my Christianity. I added the new "Jewish Annotated New Testament" recently as well to the mix to great value.

62 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:15:05am

But don't kid yourself into thinking that this is just about the Koran.

63 Charleston Chew  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:15:16am

re: #58 Obdicut

If you started burning Bibles in Ireland, there'd be riots too.

Yes, religious assholes are everywhere.

64 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:15:55am

re: #63 Charleston Chew

Yes, religious assholes are everywhere.

That is, fundie assholes. *ahem*

65 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:16:19am

re: #29 Learned Mother of Zion

Well, based on the info in your post, sure seems as if Satan won that round....another human soul screwed up royally and ultimately heading downward.

66 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:16:48am

re: #65 BrainSurfer

Well hello there...

67 dragonfire1981  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:16:57am

Of course Pamela Geller is one of the first to jump on the hate train:


SUBMISSION: GROVELING HUSSEIN OBAMA APOLOGIZES TO AFGHAN PRESIDENT

Does the humilation ever end under this president? Will this man every let us hold our heads up as Americans under his reign?

It was stomach churning to watch this video yesterday of a US four star General groveling for forgiveness to jihadists for "mishandling" extremist materials. The fish stinks from the head down and this is Obama's foreign policy. Is it any wonder that jihadist attempts in this country have skyrocketed under this asshat?

And what is he on his belly for? This:

Religious materials -- including Qurans that were burned at Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan, sparking Afghan protests -- were removed from the library of a detainee center "because of extremist inscriptions" on them, a military official said Tuesday.

There was "an appearance that these documents were being used to facilitate extremist communications," a military official said.

"Additionally, some of the documents were extremist in and of themselves, apparently originating from outside of Afghanistan," the official said.

The official said the material was burned, but authorities are attempting to determine how much.

Obama is forcing the Catholic church to violate its doctrines while cravenly submitting to Islamic teachings about the quran. Where is the respect to Christians that he demands we give to Muslims? And where the hell is the GOP?

Yes that's right, she called the sitting President of the United States an asshat. Incredible.

68 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:18:02am

re: #44 Gus

That whole nostalgia from Santorum about "culture" and "manners" is so typical from his side. They ironically have this Hollywood or storybook vision of a past that never existed. The average Joe has more culture then ever before in human history and they also have better manners. We're also a less warring society even on a global level.

Nostalgia for an age that never existed

69 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:18:05am

re: #29 Learned Mother of Zion

Do people really, actually believe in Satan?

A relative of mine joined the "Church of Satan" and sold his soul to Satan. I don't know if he really worshipped some ripped, red-skinned guy with horns and a tail, I think he joined just in order to snort the best cocaine and fuck teenage "altar virgins."

Satan didn't help when he got arrested on drug charges and sex with juveniles.

Church of Satan is more or less atheistic, and more or less does not believe in Satan as some kind of a real person. I say more or less, because of course the membership opinions can vary. But most Satanists I knew were atheists.

70 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:18:31am

re: #46 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

The whole Gone with the wind stuff.

That is precisely right. Certainly amongst nobles and elites in the old days, there was a level of culture and manners that were common and practiced almost religiously within the comforts of one's own social circles. It was in part imposed by the church. But stepping outside one's group or clan, there was in particular a real lack of civility and manners in dealing with people of a lower class, people of color, people with disabilities. So it wasn't good "manners" to speak of your neighbor raping one of your slaves, but it would be well within the boundaries of manners and culture to beat your slave for seducing your neighbor. Ah, yesteryear.

71 Charleston Chew  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:18:44am

re: #67 dragonfire1981

Of course Pamela Geller is one of the first to jump on the hate train:

Thought she was the conductor.

72 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:19:18am

re: #65 BrainSurfer

Why aren't you out impregnating women? You said that the idea that potential children not being born horrifies you-- so why aren't you out there making children?

They can't exist without you. It's your moral duty.

73 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:19:21am

re: #65 BrainSurfer

Well, based on the info in your post, sure seems as if Satan won that round...another human soul screwed up royally and ultimately heading downward.

Does Satan make people evil or do evil people naturally seek out a deity who reflects their natural desires?

74 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:19:51am

re: #72 Obdicut

Why aren't you out impregnating women? You said that the idea that potential children not being born horrifies you-- so why aren't you out there making children?

They can't exist without you. It's your moral duty.

Obdi... you will be responsible. //

75 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:20:41am

re: #62 Gus

But don't kid yourself into thinking that this is just about the Koran.

Oh brother...

Afghanistan demands NATO put Koran-burners on trial

(Reuters) - Afghanistan wants NATO to put on public trial those who burned copies of the Koran at a NATO base, President Hamid Karzai's office said on Thursday, after a third day of bloody protests over the incident.

It said NATO had agreed to a trial, but that could not be immediately confirmed.

..."NATO officials, in response to a request for the trial and punishment of the perpetrators ... promised this crime will brought to court as soon as possible," Karzai's office said in a statement.

On trial...really?

76 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:21:33am

[Link: www.churchofsatan.com...]

As you can see, there are no elements of Devil worship in the Church of Satan. Such practices are looked upon as being Christian heresies; believing in the dualistic Christian world view of “God vs. the Devil” and choosing to side with the Prince of Darkness. Satanists do not believe in the supernatural, in neither God nor the Devil. To the Satanist, he is his own God. Satan is a symbol of Man living as his prideful, carnal nature dictates. The reality behind Satan is simply the dark evolutionary force of entropy that permeates all of nature and provides the drive for survival and propagation inherent in all living things. Satan is not a conscious entity to be worshipped, rather a reservoir of power inside each human to be tapped at will. Thus any concept of sacrifice is rejected as a Christian aberration—in Satanism there’s no deity to which one can sacrifice.

77 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:21:36am

By the way Brain I know its OT but I never shrink from a chance to argue about this and I wasn't on yesterday.

Do you view abortion as a moral wrong that should remain legal (like some people probably see drinking) or do you think it should be made illegal?

78 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:21:57am

re: #75 NJDhockeyfan

Oh brother...

Afghanistan demands NATO put Koran-burners on trial

On trial...really?

Fuck them.

79 zora  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:22:09am

re: #29 Learned Mother of Zion

Do people really, actually believe in Satan?

A relative of mine joined the "Church of Satan" and sold his soul to Satan. I don't know if he really worshipped some ripped, red-skinned guy with horns and a tail, I think he joined just in order to snort the best cocaine and fuck teenage "altar virgins."

Satan didn't help when he got arrested on drug charges and sex with juveniles.

and if you believe in satan and that he is attacking american. who in the world would want santorum to be our champion against satan? may as well just give him america now.

80 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:22:33am

re: #67 dragonfire1981

Of course Pamela Geller is one of the first to jump on the hate train:

Yes that's right, she called the sitting President of the United States an asshat. Incredible.

She's reading too much into this. Obviously. Bush would have done the same thing.

81 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:23:03am

re: #69 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Church of Satan is more or less atheistic, and more or less does not believe in Satan as some kind of a real person. I say more or less, because of course the membership opinions can vary. But most Satanists I knew were atheists.

The one that I knew was an asshole.

82 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:23:04am

re: #75 NJDhockeyfan

Oh brother...

Afghanistan demands NATO put Koran-burners on trial

On trial...really?

Not gonna happen.

83 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:23:50am

re: #79 zora

Yeah, we'd need Hellboy or John Constantine or Dr. Who or something.

84 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:24:07am

re: #65 BrainSurfer

Well, based on the info in your post, sure seems as if Satan won that round...another human soul screwed up royally and ultimately heading downward.

Or it sounds like her relative used his free will to make some pretty ridiculous choices and was arrested. Mean time, the coke may have all been worth it. Nice thing is, his soul is of little consequence to you. Don't stress about it. You will live longer.

85 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:24:54am

re: #81 Learned Mother of Zion

The one that I knew was an asshole.

Oh, these guys I knew were major assholes, and not in an "egotist asshole" kind. They kinda veered into the whole fascism/Stalinism/Holocaust denial etc. (Yes, I'm talking about Russian Laveyan satanists).

86 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:26:03am

re: #85 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

I've known one Satanist, and he was a great guy, but he was an eccentric British dude, so the variability is too high there.

87 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:27:49am

re: #86 Obdicut

I've known one Satanist, and he was a great guy, but he was an eccentric British dude, so the variability is too high there.

Yeah, it varies, like in any worldview (I use this word since not every kind of satansim can be described as a religion, IMHO).

88 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:28:05am

Karzai. Blech.

89 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:28:15am

Question for ya Sarah

How will any of the social conservative efforts improve the job situation? Offshore mfg? Gasoline prices? Health care for the uninsured? Contraception gonna fix that?

Why is your party putting up all these red herrings instead of telling us what will be done to recover the economy if (fill in GOP) wins?

I think it's cause you got nothin else to say. No GOP candidate wants to deal with those issues responsibly. Not A One.

90 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:28:18am

re: #33 Tigger2005

Hmmm, maybe there is "evil" in this world after all.

We could name it , just for the fun of it, "Satan", or 'the Devil", or "Beelzebub", or "Iblis", or "Lucifer", or "The Prince of Darkness", or "Shaitain", or "666" .... and the list goes on and on, depending on your religious or historical preference.

91 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:28:46am

re: #90 BrainSurfer

Hmmm, maybe there is "evil" in this world after all.

We could name it , just for the fun of it, "Satan", or 'the Devil", or "Beelzebub", or "Iblis", or "Lucifer", or "The Prince of Darkness", or "Shaitain", or "666" ... and the list goes on and on, depending on your religious or historical preference.

Stan. Just Stan. He appreciates it, too.

92 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:30:54am

Gotta run. Have a great day!

93 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:31:31am

re: #85 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Oh, these guys I knew were major assholes, and not in an "egotist asshole" kind. They kinda veered into the whole fascism/Stalinism/Holocaust denial etc. (Yes, I'm talking about Russian Laveyan satanists).

I always thought LaVey's shenanigans had a carnival / circus atmosphere to it. Like a Nietzsche-scented sideshow exhibit, and more than a little kitschy. I suspect a lot of that gets lost.

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:32:13am

re: #93 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

I always thought LaVey's shenanigans had a carnival / circus atmosphere to it. Like a Nietzsche-scented sideshow exhibit, and more than a little kitschy. I suspect a lot of that gets lost.

95 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:34:04am

re: #90 BrainSurfer

Hmmm, maybe there is "evil" in this world after all.

We could name it , just for the fun of it, "Satan", or 'the Devil", or "Beelzebub", or "Iblis", or "Lucifer", or "The Prince of Darkness", or "Shaitain", or "666" ... and the list goes on and on, depending on your religious or historical preference.

I prefer to name the evil "Fred."

96 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:34:51am

re: #90 BrainSurfer

Hmmm, maybe there is "evil" in this world after all.

We could name it , just for the fun of it, "Satan", or 'the Devil", or "Beelzebub", or "Iblis", or "Lucifer", or "The Prince of Darkness", or "Shaitain", or "666" ... and the list goes on and on, depending on your religious or historical preference.

I'd call it "The human capability of evil" and not make up fairy tales about outside influence to explain what's clearly people just being assholes.

98 allegro  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:35:53am

re: #90 BrainSurfer

Hmmm, maybe there is "evil" in this world after all.

We could name it , just for the fun of it, "Satan", or 'the Devil", or "Beelzebub", or "Iblis", or "Lucifer", or "The Prince of Darkness", or "Shaitain", or "666" ... and the list goes on and on, depending on your religious or historical preference.

We could name it, just for fun... the current GOP that would deny some members of our society the right to marry their chosen partners, deny women control over their lives and choices, discriminate against non-white males, that would turn the country into a theocracy...

There. There's your evil.

99 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:35:58am

re: #95 Charles Johnson

I prefer to name the evil "Fred."

I myself think Barney is the more likely evil lord.

100 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:36:14am

re: #90 BrainSurfer

Hmmm, maybe there is "evil" in this world after all.

We could name it , just for the fun of it, "Satan", or 'the Devil", or "Beelzebub", or "Iblis", or "Lucifer", or "The Prince of Darkness", or "Shaitain", or "666" ... and the list goes on and on, depending on your religious or historical preference.

Or we could stop trying to personify a personal trait to make it more palatable to a bunch of sheep incapable of thinking for themselves. To answer Palin, yes I have been to Sunday school both in the Christian and Jewish traditions. The nice thing is I am no longer a child and do not require a horned red guy with flames coming out of his ass to grasp the concept of evil. I would prefer the same in the President.

101 Mocking Jay  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:36:30am

re: #95 Charles Johnson

I prefer to name the evil "Fred."

Hmm. Sounds an awful lot like "Fed."

102 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:37:37am

Fred is dead.

103 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:37:56am

re: #102 Gus

Fred is dead.

Dibs on his red cape/

104 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:37:59am

Some call the Horned One "Posner."

105 Ming  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:38:15am

Palin is defending Santorum because she doesn't want Mitt Romney to be nominated. Palin knows that a President Romney will never give her any significant role in his administration. She knows that Romney's not that crazy. Her chances are much better with Santorum. And Newt Gingrich has already said he would give Palin a "major role" in his administration.

So Palin has a shot at more fame with either Santorum or Gingrich. The one nightmare scenario for her is that Mitt Romney is nominated.

106 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:38:28am

re: #101 The Most Interesting Man in My World

Hmm. Sounds an awful lot like "Fed."

Audit the Fred!

107 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:38:43am

Others swear he goes by the name "Der Schnifter."

108 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:38:53am

He also goes by "Billy the Boob".

109 CuriousLurker  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:39:07am

Cannot. Listen. To. That. Woman. I lasted 10 seconds once she started talking. *twitching*

110 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:39:19am

I prefer El Demonio!

111 Big Steve  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:40:20am

He....Satan, even has a website with all his names......Mark of the Beast

112 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:40:50am
113 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:41:39am

re: #99 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

I myself think Barney is the more likely evil lord.

No way. Pebbles.

114 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:41:50am

re: #97 The Most Interesting Man in My World

Heh.

President Obama Is Totally Checking Out Michelle's Legs

Eve Hughes · Gulfport, Mississippi
She is the first lady and should be more aware of how she dresses. Shameful.

115 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:41:50am

re: #95 Charles Johnson

Bob.... Think about it.... it's always Bob.

116 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:42:03am

Cool people know the real name of Satan is Woland, and he has a nice apartment in Moscow and does cool shit involving magic tricks, beheading people, and holding fancy dress balls.

117 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:42:34am

I prefer "Prince of Darkness"... kind of understated, easy to underestimate, a sort of cool name for today. Put some transformer armor on his image and kids will really look up to him. Perfect for today's society.

118 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:42:59am

re: #117 BrainSurfer

I prefer "Prince of Darkness"... kind of understated, easy to underestimate, a sort of cool name for today. Put some transformer armor on his image and kids will really look up to him. Perfect for today's society.

Sorry, taken by late Bob Novak.

119 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:43:53am

re: #116 Obdicut

Cool people know the real name of Satan is Wotan, and he has a nice apartment in Moscow and does cool shit involving magic tricks, beheading people, and holding fancy dress balls.

You mean Voland?

120 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:44:04am

re: #118 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

My bad!

121 Interesting Times  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:44:04am

re: #107 Charles Johnson

LGF irrelevance watch! (a very fitting Tweet because canadiancynic actually won a defamation suit against a Harper-supporting wingnut up here)

122 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:44:31am

re: #117 BrainSurfer

Every minute you spend here rather than impregnating women is time that potential human beings are slipping away into the abyss, never to be born. How can you live with yourself?

123 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:44:47am

re: #29 Learned Mother of Zion

Do people really, actually believe in Satan?

A relative of mine joined the "Church of Satan" and sold his soul to Satan. I don't know if he really worshipped some ripped, red-skinned guy with horns and a tail, I think he joined just in order to snort the best cocaine and fuck teenage "altar virgins."

Satan didn't help when he got arrested on drug charges and sex with juveniles.

That's because Satan has investments in lawyers, guns, banks, private-run prisons for profit, and rehab clinics.

124 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:44:58am

re: #119 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

You mean Voland?

Crap, how'd I screw that one up.

Yes.

125 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:46:52am
126 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:47:28am

re: #122 Obdicut

Quite easy, thank you, Big O. Need to spend time here keeping you on your toes.

127 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:47:33am

re: #39 NJDhockeyfan

Do you think all these riots would have been avoided if a muslim soldier burned them with respect?

Nope.

128 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:47:59am

re: #71 Charleston Chew

Thought she was the conductor.

She's the bar car.

129 Robert O.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:49:06am

The mad Ayatollahs in Iran regularly make mention of "Great Satan" (dajjal).
Rick Santorum refers to "Satan" in his political speeches.

And he wonders why Americans with their heads screwed on detest his obsessed infusion of religion into politics?

130 Big Steve  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:49:16am

Personally I believe that Satan exists and he invented SAP....there can be no other rational explanation for that software other than to screw up the world.

131 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:49:21am

re: #123 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Also think he is a major share holder in Planned Parenthood.

132 Mocking Jay  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:49:56am

Virginia Senate Advances Less Invasive Ultrasound, Personhood Bills

But the House had also passed HB 462, introduced by Delegate Kathy Byron (R), which is effectively the same as the amended version. It requires a transabdominal ultrasound in cases in which it can be used to determine gestational age, but retains as an option the more invasive transvaginal ultrasound. That bill is the one the passed the Senate Committee on Thursday, and will now head to the Senate for a vote.

Though the amended version is much less invasive that Vogel’s orginal, Tarina Keene, Executive Director of NARAL Pro-Choice Virginia, told TPM Wednesday that this is “not at all” a victory. “As it still stands,” she said, “this bill is still a mandatory ultrasound. The government should have no role in this decision whether its internal or external.”

Del. Jennifer McClellan (D) called the new version “utterly useless” because in the first trimester, when most women have abortions, the fetus is too small to be detected by a transabdominal ultrasound.

If the bill becomes law, though, it will put Virginia in line with seven other states that mandate an ultrasound before an abortion, according to the Guttmacher Institute.

The committee also passed a bill that would define “personhood” as beginning at the moment of conception, which had already passed the House.

133 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:49:58am

re: #124 Obdicut

134 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:51:16am

re: #97 The Most Interesting Man in My World

Heh.

President Obama Is Totally Checking Out Michelle's Legs

Nothing wrong with that. She's a beautiful woman. What's wrong with a man admiring his wife like that? People who criticize him for that need to STFU.

135 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:51:36am

re: #126 BrainSurfer

Quite easy, thank you, Big O. Need to spend time here keeping you on your toes.

How do you propose to do that? You'd have to come up with something a little better than the greasy pile of logical failure you emerged from.

136 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:52:03am

re: #131 BrainSurfer

Also think he is a major share holder in Planned Parenthood.

Trollio trollio troll troll trollio all the live-long day.

You're really, really boring.

137 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:52:06am

re: #95 Charles Johnson

I prefer to name the evil "Fred."

That's still just an alias. We know it's really Bert.

138 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:53:24am

re: #131 BrainSurfer

Also think he is a major share holder in Planned Parenthood.

Derp.

139 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:53:31am

re: #135 Obdicut

Geez, Big O, lighten up. You have bullying tendencies?

140 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:53:59am

re: #131 BrainSurfer

Also think he is a major share holder in Planned Parenthood.

Once again, do you think Abortion is just a moral wrong or should it be illegal?

141 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:54:01am

re: #134 Lidane

Nothing wrong with that. She's a beautiful woman. What's wrong with a man admiring his wife like that? People who criticize him for that need to STFU.

I'd scold my husband for being caught on camera doing that at a formal ceremony, however. LOL. Men.

142 Lidane  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:54:41am

re: #131 BrainSurfer

143 Big Steve  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:54:49am

re: #139 BrainSurfer

Geez, Big O, lighten up. You have bullying tendencies?

I need new glasses.....I first read that as "bullying testicles"

144 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:54:50am

re: #131 BrainSurfer

Also think he is a major share holder in Planned Parenthood.

Its true. Nothing says evil like caring for the health of less fortunate women./

145 darthstar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:54:51am

[Link: alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com...]

Do your part to help dead Mormons.

146 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:55:23am

re: #139 BrainSurfer

Oh great, not just boring, but a wuss, too.

147 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:55:47am

re: #145 darthstar

yawn.

148 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:56:24am

re: #145 darthstar

See, the way that fails is that I really doubt any Mormons will give a single solitary shit about it.

149 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:56:46am

re: #145 darthstar

[Link: alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com...]

Do your part to help dead Mormons.

That is a really good one. I heard they baptized Anne Frank on the weekend.

150 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:57:45am

re: #148 Obdicut

See, the way that fails is that I really doubt any Mormons will give a single solitary shit about it.

Heh.

151 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:57:59am

re: #130 Big Steve

Personally I believe that Satan exists and he invented SAP...there can be no other rational explanation for that software other than to screw up the world.

Ooo. That's makes me a low-level minion. I apply and support security on a SAP system. That's me chuckling whenever the "You are not authorized to run transaction AB01" message appears in red at the bottom of the screen.
^_^

152 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:59:12am

re: #131 BrainSurfer

Also think he is a major share holder in Planned Parenthood.

Nope. PP is a non-profit. He's not interested in simple do-gooders. Now Komen converting "for the cure" into a distracting fund raising machine...

153 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 10:59:27am

re: #141 funky chicken

I'd scold my husband for being caught on camera doing that at a formal ceremony, however. LOL. Men.

His eyes are closed. He could be contemplating...Michelle's legs.

154 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:00:00am

re: #149 The Artist formerly known as Satan

That is a really good one. I heard they baptized Anne Frank on the weekend.

That -can't- be true. Tell me that was a failed off-color joke.

155 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:00:13am

re: #151 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I like that if you break SAP programs hard enough, you can get them to assert in Gerrman. Nothing like seeing a nice big Achtung! to spring up on the screen.

156 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:00:34am

re: #154 funky chicken

That -can't- be true. Tell me that was a failed off-color joke.

That was a failed off-color joke.

157 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:01:36am

re: #156 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

That was a failed off-color joke.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

158 aagcobb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:01:39am

re: #33 Tigger2005

Yeah, but this was an accident. People are dead, people who had nothing to do with it, because of an unintentional incident. The mindset that leads to this just fills me with revulsion...makes my skin crawl. Like Santorum.

Which is a very good reason why we should just get the hell out of that country. We can't fix it and we can't defeat them; everyone who's tried for the last 3,000 years has failed.

159 Big Steve  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:01:41am

re: #151 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Ooo. That's makes me a low-level minion. I apply and support security on a SAP system. That's me chuckling whenever the "You are not authorized to run transaction AB01" message appears in red at the bottom of the screen.
^_^

Ahhh....good old AB01...creating assets are ya?

160 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:01:47am

re: #140 jamesfirecat

Well, society does have laws specifically against killing other people. We also make laws against eating other people, molesting children, raping women.. and so on. Right now the law allows the unborn to be killed. The law also allows for the execution of criminals. Are either of these laws, or many others we have, good laws? Easy to argue eitherway, although I don't particularly care for either.

I value life greatly, without conditions. But would I take a life if absolutely necessary? Absolutely.

161 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:02:35am

re: #154 funky chicken

That -can't- be true. Tell me that was a failed off-color joke.

Nope. They apologized for it today. They just finished doing wiesenthal a month ago and apologizing for that too.

162 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:03:00am

re: #143 Big Steve

Well, maybe those too.

163 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:03:01am

re: #154 funky chicken

That -can't- be true. Tell me that was a failed off-color joke.

[Link: www.deseretnews.com...]

164 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:03:36am

re: #157 Gus

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

OK, I stand corrected.

165 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:03:38am

re: #155 Obdicut

I like that if you break SAP programs hard enough, you can get them to assert in Gerrman. Nothing like seeing a nice big Achtung! to spring up on the screen.

Short dumps in German are a hoot. Fun part here is that we now have messages and stuff flying around in four different languages. (German, Portuguese, Spanish, and English.)

My Portuguese lessons are learning what the different security roles do since the names and descriptions are in Portuguese. And you can't do English translations of the names. Google Translate is my friend.

166 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:03:49am

re: #154 funky chicken

That -can't- be true. Tell me that was a failed off-color joke.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

167 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:03:54am

re: #161 The Artist formerly known as Satan

First of all 'they' didn't do it. The Mormon Church has a policy of not doing this. Individual Mormons did it.

Second of all, how is this different from other religions saying prayers for the souls of the departed of other faiths, or asserting that the good people from other faiths will be converted in the afterlife? Most other religions have beliefs and practices just as weird and problematic, so why do the Mormons get singled out?

168 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:04:22am

By "they" you mean "LDS church members who are disobeying church policy."

We've been told NOT to do this for some time now, but some people apparently think that doesn't mean them personally.

169 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:07:03am

re: #167 Obdicut

Because you can beat up on Mormons and get away with it. No matter that they're not weirder than any other religion.

170 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:08:29am

re: #154 funky chicken

It's true. And not for the first time either. Mormon groups have carried out a baptism by proxy for Anne Frank apparently nine times.

More here.

And one has to wonder why this is coming out now - during a presidential campaign featuring a Mormon as a presumptive front-runner. Coincidence? A way to try and sway Jewish voters?

171 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:08:37am

re: #160 BrainSurfer

Well, society does have laws specifically against killing other people. We also make laws against eating other people, molesting children, raping women.. and so on. Right now the law allows the unborn to be killed. The law also allows for the execution of criminals. Are either of these laws, or many others we have, good laws? Easy to argue eitherway, although I don't particularly care for either.

I value life greatly, without conditions. But would I take a life if absolutely necessary? Absolutely.

So this is going to boil down to your definition of personhood*

When is that in the fetal development process?

And what rights does one person have to interfere with those of another?

* - I will make the assumption of "I value life greatly" is being applied to human life. We'll leave out the livestock, pets, plants etc. for now.

172 erik_t  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:08:52am

re: #169 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Because you can beat up on Mormons and get away with it. No matter that they're not weirder than any other religion.

LDS appears to more actively and effectively engage/encourage engagement in political activism for socially regressive bullshit than most other religions (see: Prop 8), and for that I will happily and unapologetically beat up on them.

173 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:09:03am

Baptism for the dead
I'm fine with criticizing religions but the practice isn't being fairly portrayed by many critics.

174 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:09:14am

re: #142 Lidane

My hero - from way back when. Thanks for the memories.

175 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:09:18am

re: #169 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Because you can beat up on Mormons and get away with it. No matter that they're not weirder than any other religion.

Somehow Romney got drawn into this. Not by his choosing. Which is kind of weird because Romney's still a layperson IMO.

176 zora  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:09:36am

re: #167 Obdicut

First of all 'they' didn't do it. The Mormon Church has a policy of not doing this. Individual Mormons did it.

Second of all, how is this different from other religions saying prayers for the souls of the departed of other faiths, or asserting that the good people from other faiths will be converted in the afterlife? Most other religions have beliefs and practices just as weird and problematic, so why do the Mormons get singled out?

I don't think any protestants believe in afterlife conversion. Someone correct me if they are familiar with something different.

177 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:09:47am

re: #172 erik_t

Sure. I'm happy to call out the Mormon church on Prop 8. I fucking hate what they did there and I think they'll regret it in time-- they don't realize how deeply angry they made an entire generation of Californians. But that doesn't mean that their religion is any whackier or more arrogant than other religions.

178 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:10:06am

re: #172 erik_t

LDS appears to more actively and effectively engage/encourage engagement in political activism for socially regressive bullshit (see: Prop 8), and for that I will happily and unapologetically beat up on them.

There is a Church and there are members who don't always agree with the political shenanigans of the hierarchy, just like Catholics do not always agree with regressive stances of the Catholic hierarchy.

179 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:10:08am

re: #160 BrainSurfer

Well, society does have laws specifically against killing other people. We also make laws against eating other people, molesting children, raping women.. and so on. Right now the law allows the unborn to be killed. The law also allows for the execution of criminals. Are either of these laws, or many others we have, good laws? Easy to argue eitherway, although I don't particularly care for either.

I value life greatly, without conditions. But would I take a life if absolutely necessary? Absolutely.

Okay then do you believe that the child's right to life trumps the woman's right to keep her private property (in this case her organs) to herself and not share them with anyone she doesn't want to?

I just want to be sure I understand your thought process...

180 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:10:28am

re: #167 Obdicut

First of all 'they' didn't do it. The Mormon Church has a policy of not doing this. Individual Mormons did it.

Second of all, how is this different from other religions saying prayers for the souls of the departed of other faiths, or asserting that the good people from other faiths will be converted in the afterlife? Most other religions have beliefs and practices just as weird and problematic, so why do the Mormons get singled out?

1. The Mormon Church wrote a policy against this practice being used for Holocaust victims a few years ago, after vocal opposition from Jewish groups. Since that time, it has apparently happened numerous times, including twice in the last month. The Church claims to be disciplining its members. But there is a procedure within the Church. It is not like this is some mormon in their basement doing it alone.

2. I know many religions proselytize, Jews ( which I am) don't and we do not hope to convert anyone. As far as I am concerned it is a tremendous insult to freedom of conscience and religion, and one that I believe completely discredits the entire faith. It is very different from saying a prayer to one's own god to bless someone of another faith.

181 Big Steve  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:10:31am

re: #161 The Artist formerly known as Satan

Nope. They apologized for it today. They just finished doing wiesenthal a month ago and apologizing for that too.

The Mormon efforts at genealogy are truly remarkable and are the single most uplifting thing that the internet has wrought. Their databases have allowed millions to connect to their past. So regardless of their motives, I applaud the work.

182 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:10:39am

re: #173 Killgore Trout

Baptism for the dead
I'm fine with criticizing religions but the practice isn't being fairly portrayed by many critics.

We finally agree on something ;)

183 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:12:36am

re: #180 The Artist formerly known as Satan

It is very different from saying a prayer to one's own god to bless someone of another faith.

That's not what I'm comparing it to. If you ask Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc. what happens to good Jews in the Afterlife, they'll tell you that they realize the truth, as revealed by god. How is that not exactly as insulting and weird?

184 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:13:50am

re: #96 Obdicut

I'd call it "The human capability of evil" and not make up fairy tales about outside influence to explain what's clearly people just being assholes.

Exactly. Where is the personal responsibility?

185 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:13:53am

re: #183 Obdicut

That's not what I'm comparing it too. If you ask Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc. what happens to good Jews in the Afterlife, they'll tell you that they realize the truth, as revealed by god. How is that not exactly as insulting and weird?

The Truth? We are the Chosen Ones. /must be spoken in Harry Potter's voice

186 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:13:56am

re: #183 Obdicut

In fact, since Mormons believe the souls have a choice, they're actually being less arrogant and more respectful than a lot of other religions.

187 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:13:59am

re: #182 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

We finally agree on something ;)

This calls for some Ritz crackers.

188 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:14:14am

Need I remind everyone that according to the Catholic teaching most Holocaust victims are in Hell? Now that is cold.

189 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:14:59am

re: #188 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

I'm not sure anything can beat predestination as a screwed up, cruel-as-hell theological belief for me.

190 Big Steve  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:16:22am

re: #188 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Need I remind everyone that according to the Catholic teaching most Holocaust victims are in Hell? Now that is cold.

If so.....that must be make Hitler nervous about the company he is keeping.

191 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:16:32am

re: #188 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Need I remind everyone that according to the Catholic teaching most Holocaust victims are in Hell? Now that is cold.

You might infer that from playing with different doctrines, but I have never heard a Catholic priest say anyone is in Hell, including Judas. " Not knowable."

192 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:17:17am

re: #191 Decatur Deb

You might infer that from playing with different doctrines, but I have never heard a Catholic priest say anyone is in Hell, including Judas. " Not knowable."

If Hitler isn't in Hell am I deeply disappointed in justice.

193 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:17:22am

re: #191 Decatur Deb

You might infer that from playing with different doctrines, but I have never heard a Catholic priest say anyone is in Hell, including Judas. " Not knowable."

Sure, this pertains to individuals. Note how I haven't specified any individuals.

194 aagcobb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:18:15am

re: #95 Charles Johnson

I prefer to name the evil "Fred."

The Fred Song.

195 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:18:32am

re: #191 Decatur Deb

Plenty of Catholic theologians have made a lot of guesses about who goes where, though.

196 Jimmi the Grey  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:19:02am

re: #167 Obdicut

First of all 'they' didn't do it. The Mormon Church has a policy of not doing this. Individual Mormons did it.

Second of all, how is this different from other religions saying prayers for the souls of the departed of other faiths, or asserting that the good people from other faiths will be converted in the afterlife? Most other religions have beliefs and practices just as weird and problematic, so why do the Mormons get singled out?

Sure they are. Just like OWS is responsible for the actions of anyone within a 50 mile area of a protest.

///

197 erik_t  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:19:10am

re: #177 Obdicut

Sure. I'm happy to call out the Mormon church on Prop 8. I fucking hate what they did there and I think they'll regret it in time-- they don't realize how deeply angry they made an entire generation of Californians. But that doesn't mean that their religion is any whackier or more arrogant than other religions.

You will note that I made no such statement to the contrary.

198 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:19:13am

re: #193 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Sure, this pertains to individuals. Note how I haven't specified any individuals.

If you told a priest/bishop/pope that you thought Hell is empty, he would have no grounds to invite you out for a stake.

199 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:19:31am

re: #195 Obdicut

Plenty of Catholic theologians have made a lot of guesses about who goes where, though.

I'm going to hell in a hand basket. In fact. I'm already there!

//

200 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:19:43am

re: #182 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

We finally agree on something ;)

No we don't.
/Just being contrary

201 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:20:33am

re: #172 erik_t

LDS appears to more actively and effectively engage/encourage engagement in political activism for socially regressive bullshit than most other religions (see: Prop 8), and for that I will happily and unapologetically beat up on them.

So is the Catholic church. So are the evangelicals (whatever denomination they are).

202 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:20:43am

re: #199 Gus

If there's a hell, I'll see you there (but I think I need something a wee bit bigger than a hand basket).

203 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:21:18am

re: #201 Sionainn

So is the Catholic church. So are the evangelicals (whatever denomination they care).

And let's not start even counting the modern theocratic states...

204 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:22:31am

re: #183 Obdicut

That's not what I'm comparing it to. If you ask Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc. what happens to good Jews in the Afterlife, they'll tell you that they realize the truth, as revealed by god. How is that not exactly as insulting and weird?

You said:

Second of all, how is this different from other religions saying prayers for the souls of the departed of other faiths, or asserting that the good people from other faiths will be converted in the afterlife?

So I think that is what you compared it to. But as to your second point I will say the following. 1. Again, Jews do not do it, I think it is weird and disrespectful and insulting regardless of who is doing it.
2. It is particularly offensive in the way it is done by Mormons with the specific namings. It is more offensive than if it had been done en masse as others do it.
3. This is a practice of the Church, and the Church while it has made statements against the practice has not done enough to stop it. In fact over the last 10 years, Jewish groups have ceased dealing with Mormon church on this issue finding them to be uncooperative.

205 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:23:31am

re: #179 jamesfirecat

To answer your question directly - No.

But it certainly seems as if some (many) in the pro-abortion camp consider abortions as good and having babies as bad. Even yesterday, a poster (Erik?) indicated that he/she were happy (conditionally) to hear that some one had an abortion. The fact that having an abortion is considered a positive act to be celebrated is an extremely warped perspective in my opinion.

206 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:23:58am

re: #197 erik_t

You will note that I made no such statement to the contrary.

But I see them get singled out here all the time. Any time a Mormon religious belief (golden tablets, magic rock) or practice gets mentioned, there's a dogpile on 'em. Their beliefs are no weirder and no more invalid than any other religious group. I don't get the point of mocking a particular religious faith, especially when that faith happens to be often persecuted by other mainstream religions.

207 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:24:19am

re: #197 erik_t

My families big experience with the Mormon Church has rather poor. In 2001, my little sister's kindergarten teacher died. My parents wanted to go to the funeral, but they couldn't go for most of the service, because they weren't Mormon.

My family tends to have a very poor view of Mormons because of this. How poor? We have a Border Collie at home. Whenever a missionary comes to the door, my dad usually lets the dog, which is very territorial, out the door. My mom will usually try to stop my dad's impulsiveness. But she takes no action when this circumstance happens.

I feel neutral on my family's actions.

208 Interesting Times  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:24:26am

re: #189 Obdicut

I'm not sure anything can beat predestination as a screwed up, cruel-as-hell theological belief for me.

It's defended through all that "potter and the clay" crap* - namely, that because God has all the power to make people take whatever form and purpose he wants, they have no right to complain about their lives, fate, anything - all they can basically do is say the "you're in charge God, so do whatever" prayer and be done with it.

*I did a search for "free will" on this page, and by fantastic coincidence, it was nowhere to be found.

209 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:24:32am

re: #204 The Artist formerly known as Satan

2. It is particularly offensive in the way it is done by Mormons with the specific namings. It is more offensive than if it had been done en masse as others do it.

Why on earth is it more offensive?

210 erik_t  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:25:26am

re: #201 Sionainn

So is the Catholic church. So are the evangelicals (whatever denomination they care).

Huh? Everything I've seen (eg.) has suggested that on Prop 8, Mormons were far more motivated and leveraged than any other demographic. To say that the LDS church 'more actively and effectively engage/encourage engagement' is, so far as I am aware, a statement of fact. This statement obviously does not imply that all other demographics are exactly equivalent.

I welcome data to the contrary.

211 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:25:27am

re: #207 ProGunLiberal

Are you saying your family sics dogs on people they don't like?

I think I may be starting to see where your tendency to want to hurt and punish others comes from.

212 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:25:28am

re: #205 BrainSurfer

To answer your question directly - No.

But it certainly seems as if some (many) in the pro-abortion camp consider abortions as good and having babies as bad. Even yesterday, a poster (Erik?) indicated that he/she were happy (conditionally) to hear that some one had an abortion. The fact that having an abortion is considered a positive act to be celebrated is an extremely warped perspective in my opinion.

Bullshit.

213 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:25:41am

re: #210 erik_t

No, the Catholic church was right there with them.

214 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:25:44am

re: #205 BrainSurfer

To answer your question directly - No.

But it certainly seems as if some (many) in the pro-abortion camp consider abortions as good and having babies as bad. Even yesterday, a poster (Erik?) indicated that he/she were happy (conditionally) to hear that some one had an abortion. The fact that having an abortion is considered a positive act to be celebrated is an extremely warped perspective in my opinion.

If you don't feel that the child's right to life trumps the mother's right to choose what to do with her her private property, on what grounds do you object to abortions being legal?

I will spot you that the child should have all the rights of a living person, and abortion is immoral, do you think it should be illegal or not?

215 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:26:25am

re: #212 Gus

Bullshit.

Sometimes that's all that needs to be said.

216 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:26:30am

re: #207 ProGunLiberal

My families big experience with the Mormon Church has rather poor. In 2001, my little sister's kindergarten teacher died. My parents wanted to go to the funeral, but they couldn't go for most of the service, because they weren't Mormon.

My family tends to have a very poor view of Mormons because of this. How poor? We have a Border Collie at home. Whenever a missionary comes to the door, my dad usually lets the dog, which is very territorial, out the door. My mom will usually try to stop my dad's impulsiveness. But she takes no action when this circumstance happens.

I feel neutral on my family's actions.

As I've mentioned before, LDS funerals are not closed to non-LDS people as a matter of practice.

Families can make funerals private, which is undoubtedly what happened, but that's just them, not an LDS practice.

217 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:27:08am

re: #205 BrainSurfer

To answer your question directly - No.

But it certainly seems as if some (many) in the pro-abortion camp consider abortions as good and having babies as bad. Even yesterday, a poster (Erik?) indicated that he/she were happy (conditionally) to hear that some one had an abortion. The fact that having an abortion is considered a positive act to be celebrated is an extremely warped perspective in my opinion.

Are you seriously that fucking stupid?

218 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:27:28am

re: #210 erik_t

Huh? Everything I've seen (eg.) has suggested that on Prop 8, Mormons were far more motivated and leveraged than any other demographic. To say that the LDS church 'more actively and effectively engage/encourage engagement' is, so far as I am aware, a statement of fact. This statement obviously does not imply that all other demographics are exactly equivalent.

I welcome data to the contrary.

I was specifically commenting on this and not just Prop 8: "LDS appears to more actively and effectively engage/encourage engagement in political activism for socially regressive bullshit than most other religions."

219 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:27:54am

re: #215 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Sometimes that's all that needs to be said.

That one was stacked nearly 50 feet high.

220 erik_t  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:27:54am

re: #205 BrainSurfer

To answer your question directly - No.

But it certainly seems as if some (many) in the pro-abortion camp consider abortions as good and having babies as bad. Even yesterday, a poster (Erik?) indicated that he/she were happy (conditionally) to hear that some one had an abortion. The fact that having an abortion is considered a positive act to be celebrated is an extremely warped perspective in my opinion.

I did indeed. Laughably, you proceeded to consider this entirely acceptable.

Inconsistent trolling dipshit says what?

221 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:28:11am

re: #217 The Artist formerly known as Satan

Elaborate please.

222 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:29:40am

re: #221 BrainSurfer

Elaborate please.

Are you willing to answer the two questions I posed in #171 above?

223 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:30:36am

re: #220 erik_t

Ah, you make my point. Happiness with the act of an abortion being performed. A lost soul, you are.

224 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:30:44am

re: #216 To hold my temper, most of the time.

As I've mentioned before, LDS funerals are not closed to non-LDS people as a matter of practice.

Families can make funerals private, which is undoubtedly what happened, but that's just them, not an LDS practice.

Are any funeral services held in the Temple?

225 erik_t  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:31:47am

re: #218 Sionainn

I was specifically commenting on this and not just Prop 8: "LDS appears to more actively and effectively engage/encourage engagement in political activism for socially regressive bullshit than most other religions."

I use it as a convenient example because the sample size is very large and it's recent and well-documented. I don't recall anyone suggesting at the time (or since then) that it was out of character for any of the groups involved.

I don't mean to be engaging in solipsistic bullshit - it really is the best case study that comes to my mind.

I do not mean any of this as a defense of the Roman Catholic Church or a variety of other evangelical groups, many of whom deserve equal or greater angry glares for engaging in similar activity. This all stems from an implication at #169 that Mormon-bashing is exclusively tied to their 'weirdness' or lack thereof, which is an incomplete picture.

226 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:32:30am

re: #225 erik_t

Those other groups wield a lot more political power in the US, too.

227 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:32:41am

re: #224 Sionainn

Are any funeral services held in the Temple?

No. Funerals are held at the local church buildings.

228 erik_t  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:32:52am

re: #223 BrainSurfer

Ah, you make my point. Happiness with the act of an abortion being performed. A lost soul, you are.

Those fuckers always did scare me.

229 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:33:46am

re: #211 Obdicut

Not usually. They usually get the dog in the cage (The dog tends to be very barky if door is knocked or bell is rung, and tries to dig its way through the door jamb).

It's just the Mormons. I occasionally hear venting about it my parents run into a vocal Mormon while out and around. Mostly still about the funeral thing. It's the only religious group my parents treat that way. My Dad tends to act like a cranky WASP, but he gives more respect to every other religious group (except for the Scientologists). My mother is more mild mannered, but she doesn't try to reign my dad in either.

230 Gus  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:33:56am

I better get to work on something here. Later folks.

231 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:34:19am

re: #209 Obdicut

Why on earth is it more offensive?

Because it is to the families of the deceased. It is particularly offensive for the family of a holocaust victim who died at the hands of Christians for the crime of being Jewish, to be posthumously baptized into any Christian faith. Where this is some blanket concept, it is less offensive on an individual level as it is both less personal and of less significance. When one person by name is targeted and baptized it is of a different impact on those that might have a relationship to that individual.

232 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:34:43am

re: #225 erik_t

I use it as a convenient example because the sample size is very large and it's recent and well-documented. I don't recall anyone suggesting at the time (or since then) that it was out of character for any of the groups involved.

I don't mean to be engaging in solipsistic bullshit - it really is the best case study that comes to my mind.

I do not mean any of this as a defense of the Roman Catholic Church or a variety of other evangelical groups, many of whom deserve equal or greater angry glares for engaging in similar activity. This all stems from an implication at #169 that Mormon-bashing is exclusively tied to their 'weirdness' or lack thereof, which is an incomplete picture.

The Catholic church were very involved in Prop 8 as well as the LDS.

233 labman57  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:35:20am

Guess it's time to get a new edition of my English-Palinspeak dictionary.

234 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:35:53am

A line by line examination of the supposedly "faked" memo from the Heartland Institute makes a damned good case that it's not faked at all, but a genuine private memo intended for Heartland staffers: Evaluation Shows 'Faked' Heartland Climate Strategy Memo Is Authentic.

235 Jimmi the Grey  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:35:59am

re: #217 The Artist formerly known as Satan

Are you seriously that fucking stupid?

(S)He thinks PP is a for profit business whose board actively promotes policies to provide more abortions via unplanned pregnancies to increase shareholder value. So...

236 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:36:51am

re: #227 To hold my temper, most of the time.

No. Funerals are held at the local church buildings.

Thanks. I went to my sister's wedding at her local church and then she had her Temple ceremony later that we couldn't go to. I had been wondering if there were any funeral rites done in the Temple that would explain why non-LDS couldn't go.

237 labman57  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:36:58am

re: #1 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Somewhere in America, Dana Carvey is gleefully jotting down new material provided courtesy of these religious fanatics.

238 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:37:43am

re: #236 Sionainn

I'm just going off what my parent's have said.

239 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:37:44am

re: #221 BrainSurfer

Elaborate please.

You are doing a fine job on your own. My statement stands, and requires no further explanation.

240 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:38:01am

re: #231 The Artist formerly known as Satan

Because it is to the families of the deceased.

"Because it is" is not an answer.

. It is particularly offensive for the family of a holocaust victim who died at the hands of Christians for the crime of being Jewish, to be posthumously baptized into any Christian faith.

Well, they're not. They're offered the posthumous choice of joining Mormonism.

241 CuriousLurker  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:38:38am

re: #208 Interesting Times

It's defended through all that "potter and the clay" crap* - namely, that because God has all the power to make people take whatever form and purpose he wants, they have no right to complain about their lives, fate, anything - all they can basically do is say the "you're in charge God, so do whatever" prayer and be done with it.

*I did a search for "free will" on this page, and by fantastic coincidence, it was nowhere to be found.

Omar Khayyam went through a stage where he was questioning the whole free will/sin concept, with many of the poems being part of the "Potter's Row" series in the Rubaiyat. Unfortunately, he never mentioned how (or even if) he resolved the apparent paradox. ;)

When, bending low, God moulded me from clay
Incontrovertibly my life was ordered:
Without his order I abstain from crime.
Why should I burn then, On His Judgment Day?

That sin is irresistible, He knows;
Yet he commands us to abstain from sin.
Thus irresistibiity confounds us
With prohibition:—'Lean, but never fall!'

The clay from which this human form was moulded
Forewarned a hundred wonders for me; yet—
Could I be worse or better than I am
Who was, even before he fashioned me?

On every path I take, your snares are spread
To entrap me, should I walk without due care.
Utter extremes acknowledge Your vast sway.
You order all things—yet You call me rebel?

If sinfully I drudge, where is your mercy?
If clouds darken my heart, where is your light?
Heaven rewards my practice of obedience;
Rewards well-earned are good—but what of grace?

You, always cognizant of every secret;
Who succour all flesh in its hour of need,
Grant me repentance, grant me mercy, too—
You who forgive all, you who punish all.

Ordaining every cause for life or death,
Guarding this tattered robe we call the Sky,
Say, am I sinful? Are you not my Master?
Who sins when you alone created me?

Our Guardian chose our natures. Is He then
Delinquent when he treats us with disorder?
We ask: 'Why break the best of us?' and murmur:
'Is the pot guilty if it stands awry?'

—From The Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam (Graves & Shah translation), Verses 82-88, 92 [Much better than the Fitzgerald translation, IMO]

242 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:39:06am

re: #234 Charles Johnson

It did not convince me at all. First of all, whether fake or real, the memo is based on these documents, so how can comparing it to these documents show its authenticity?

Second, and as serious: Desmogblog does not mention that both the 2011 25K Koch donation and the projected 200K donation were for the Healthcare News newspaper. These donations didn't have anything to do with AGW, contrary to DSB's speculations. So they did not explain the very glaring mistake they claim is not contained in the memo.

243 erik_t  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:39:52am

re: #232 Sionainn

The Catholic church were very involved in Prop 8 as well as the LDS.

Prop 8 is perhaps not such a fine example, then, as it's awfully hard to tease out any correlation between the church's official support (which was never in dispute) and the amount of donations from the public membership.

244 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:40:10am

re: #238 ProGunLiberal

I'm just going off what my parent's have said.

I get that. No worries.

245 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:40:13am

re: #241 CuriousLurker

On Omar Khayyam:

OH COME ON!!! He couldn't write down how he solved it?!?!? It really would have been good to hear his thoughts.

246 CuriousLurker  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:42:19am

re: #241 CuriousLurker

Omar Khayyam went through a stage where he was questioning the whole free will/sin concept, with many of the poems being part of the "Potter's Row" series in the Rubaiyat. Unfortunately, he never mentioned how (or even if) he resolved the apparent paradox. ;)

Of course, nowadays in too many places in the Muslim world the same poems that made Khayyam so famous would get him branded a heretic or apostate and probably result in a death sentence. Sad that things have taken such a turn for the worse.

247 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:42:27am

re: #240 Obdicut

"Because it is" is not an answer.

Well, they're not. They're offered the posthumous choice of joining Mormonism.

My Jewish SIL who lost a lot of family members in the Holocaust is extremely offended by what the LDS have done with the baptisms for the dead, likely for the reasons Petero gave.

248 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:43:55am

re: #243 erik_t

Prop 8 is perhaps not such a fine example, then, as it's awfully hard to tease out any correlation between the church's official support (which was never in dispute) and the amount of donations from the public membership.

That's okay. :-)

I've really got to get caught up on my work since I'm so far behind after my whole computer disaster. See you all later.

249 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:44:09am

re: #247 Sionainn

My Jewish SIL who lost a lot of family members in the Holocaust is extremely offended by what the LDS have done with the baptisms for the dead, likely for the reasons Petero gave.

There aren't any reasons given, though, other than 'it's offensive'. Isn't it also offensive for most other Christian faiths to say that those who died in the Holocaust are damned?

250 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:48:32am

re: #249 Obdicut

There aren't any reasons given, though, other than 'it's offensive'. Isn't it also offensive for most other Christian faiths to say that those who died in the Holocaust are damned?

Reasons were indeed given in #231. You may not find it offensive, but there are others who do find it outrageously offensive.

This is starting to remind me of people, for example, who don't understand why various Native American peoples are offended by others using them as mascots for sports teams. Just a thought.

251 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:49:11am

re: #250 Sionainn

Offense is in the eye of the beholder. Simple as that.

252 BrainSurfer  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:49:42am

re: #222 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

171? Sure...:

So this is going to boil down to your definition of personhood*
"Personhood" - give me a break from such a PC crappy word. What exactly do mean by "personhood"?

When is that in the fetal development process? If you are looking for a specific time point when an embryo becomes a fetus becomes a baby, go ask different doctors (which I am not) and you will probably get different answers as well.

And what rights does one person have to interfere with those of another?
Now this is a loaded question - it happens all the time every day. The government interferes with our individual rights, organizations of every type can interfere with our rights as individuals, and individuals interfere with other individuals all the time. Question really is - do you have the actual power to stop that interference if it is unwanted, or must you just go along and acquiesce because you are powerless to act?

253 jaunte  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:50:30am

The most likely author of the Heartland Institute climate strategy memo?
A [JGAAP] computer analysis may suggest the document's most likely author.

254 Interesting Times  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:50:42am
255 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:50:57am

re: #242 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

It did not convince me at all. First of all, whether fake or real, the memo is based on these documents, so how can comparing it to these documents show its authenticity?

Second, and as serious: Desmogblog does not mention that both the 2011 25K Koch donation and the projected 200K donation were for the Healthcare News newspaper. These donations didn't have anything to do with AGW, contrary to DSB's speculations. So they did not explain the very glaring mistake they claim is not contained in the memo.

I think you're using a standard of fact checking that would not apply to a private memo. This isn't intended to be an official document of any kind, it's just something written for the staff. Based on my own interactions so far with Heartland Institute people, I find it very easy to believe they make mistakes like this.

256 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:51:56am

re: #251 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Offense is in the eye of the beholder. Simple as that.

That's what I was trying to say. Thank you.

257 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:52:06am

re: #252 BrainSurfer

You have been answered that yesterday. No, we don't know the exact moment of the beginning of personhood. We do know that personhood cannot begin when there isn't even a cerebral cortex. So take the period of the formation, add some time to be safe, and you have the needed cut-off date after which the only reasons for an abortion are health reasons.

258 AK-47%  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:53:05am

re: #75 NJDhockeyfan

Oh brother...

Afghanistan demands NATO put Koran-burners on trial

On trial...really?

They should be tried by the military for violating regulations on respectful dealings with local residents, which includes respecting some of their religious traditions while on their territory.

But not for blasphemy or for violating the Law of Islam.

As a piece in today's "Slate" pointed out, there is no law or mention in the Koran itself on how it is to be dealt with and traditions vary from place to place.

But tossing them out in the garbage was just sloppy procedure, the kind of thing which, again, makes it even harder for our people on the ground to do their already difficult job.

259 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:53:21am

re: #253 jaunte

The most likely author of the Heartland Institute climate strategy memo?
A [JGAAP] computer analysis may suggest the document's most likely author.

Very interesting.

260 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:54:07am

re: #240 Obdicut

"Because it is" is not an answer.

Well, they're not. They're offered the posthumous choice of joining Mormonism.

Well if you feel it is required I will put it to you this way. Posthumous baptism is nothing more than a continuation of the effort to proselytize and convince others that there is no peace and salvation unless you accept Jesus as your lord. To someone persecuted for their lack of belief in Jesus,and for the family of someone killed for that lack of belief, it is extremely offensive that their remain people out there continuing to argue that there remains no peace, no salvation, for that soul unless they choose Jesus. So not only can that person have no peace in this life (since they were killed for it), this group is singling them out and saying hey, Anne Frank, there is no salvation for you unless you make this choice. And we want to give you the ability to make this choice so here is your baptism. While we don't think you should have been killed for not loving Jesus, if you want the afterlife to be better than your real life, here is what you should do. That is offensive.

261 AK-47%  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:54:35am

re: #80 Gus

She's reading too much into this. Obviously. Bush would have done the same thing.

He would have put on his flight suit, strolled down the runway at Bagram and told those t-heads to man up and take it, we're the bosses here!

262 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:55:01am

re: #250 Sionainn

Reasons were indeed given in #231. You may not find it offensive, but there are others who do find it outrageously offensive.

No, those aren't reasons. Those are just a statement that it's offensive. Obviously, if the idea that people, after the die, are converted to other religions are offensive, than most religions are just as offensive. What the Mormons are doing is giving, from their perspective, a chance for those souls to be saved after death-- a chance, a choice. This is both more humble and less cruel than most other religions, and I don't get why people treat it as though its worse. Most other religions either say that you automatically convert in the afterlife, or that you're damned for not converting.

This is starting to remind me of people, for example, who don't understand why various Native American peoples are offended by others using them as mascots for sports teams. Just a thought.

No, it's nothing like that. I understand people being pissed off that other religions don't respect their religion. I don't understand why they're more pissed off at the Mormons than they are at other religions.

263 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:57:01am

re: #262 Obdicut

No, those aren't reasons. Those are just a statement that it's offensive. Obviously, if the idea that people, after the die, are converted to other religions are offensive, than most religions are just as offensive. What the Mormons are doing is giving, from their perspective, a chance for those souls to be saved after death-- a chance, a choice. This is both more humble and less cruel than most other religions, and I don't get why people treat it as though its worse. Most other religions either say that you automatically convert in the afterlife, or that you're damned for not converting.

No, it's nothing like that. I understand people being pissed off that other religions don't respect their religion. I don't understand why they're more pissed off at the Mormons than they are at other religions.

Actually I never said I was more pissed off at Mormons than any other religions. I did say that I found the actual naming of particular people more offensive than just a blanket hope for all mankind to accept Jesus.

264 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:57:34am

re: #255 Charles Johnson

I find it hard to believe that a high-placed member - maybe Joe Bast himself - would not know that Koch did not sponsor anti-AGW denial with such large sums. And the memo would surely be prepared by such a high-placed member - note how it mentions that it would be distributed only to the select members of the Board, not even to the whole Board.

Again, I do leave a small chance to it being sheer incompetence, but that's just an ad hoc solution. The prima facie evidence is still against the memo's authenticity.

And mistakes aside, DSB's analysis would only prove that the memo corresponds to the other documents. It would not show its authenticity. That can be proven only by forensic means, IMHO. So I think there's both a logical failure and a factual failure on DSB's part here.

I'd rather they focused on the reliably authentic documents. By focusing on the memo they're playing with a tarbaby.

265 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 11:59:31am

re: #263 The Artist formerly known as Satan

Actually I never said I was more pissed off at Mormons than any other religions. I did say that I found the actual naming of particular people more offensive than just a blanket hope for all mankind to accept Jesus.

I'm not comparing it to a blanket hope for all mankind to accept Jesus. I'm comparing it to the belief, in most mainstream Christian religions that believe good 'pagans' get salvation, that in the afterlife all the good people convert to Christianity. I'm also comparing it to the belief among those Christian religions who believe salvation comes only through faith in Christ that that all those people no matter how good, are damned for their lack of faith in Christ.

266 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:01:23pm

re: #264 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

I find it hard to believe that a high-placed member - maybe Joe Bast himself - would not know that Koch did not sponsor anti-AGW denial with such large sums.

It is within the realm of reason that Hearltand is playing funny buggers with their budget, but it's pure speculation.

I'd rather they focused on the reliably authentic documents. By focusing on the memo they're playing with a tarbaby.

I completely, completely agree. The other documents show possible legal violations of the 503 status Heartland enjoys. It's not as dramatic, but it's actually more legally problematic for Heartland, but it's in danger of being sidelined entirely.

267 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:02:04pm

re: #252 BrainSurfer

171? Sure...:

So this is going to boil down to your definition of personhood*
"Personhood" - give me a break from such a PC crappy word. What exactly do mean by "personhood"?

When is that in the fetal development process? If you are looking for a specific time point when an embryo becomes a fetus becomes a baby, go ask different doctors (which I am not) and you will probably get different answers as well.

And what rights does one person have to interfere with those of another?
Now this is a loaded question - it happens all the time every day. The government interferes with our individual rights, organizations of every type can interfere with our rights as individuals, and individuals interfere with other individuals all the time. Question really is - do you have the actual power to stop that interference if it is unwanted, or must you just go along and acquiesce because you are powerless to act?

If you're taking requests can you also respond to my 214? Or if you only care to debate the morality and not the legality of abortion just let me know because I see nothing wrong with a moral opposition to abortion. So long as it falls into the category of "I am morally opposed to what you do, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to do it."

268 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:04:39pm

re: #262 Obdicut

...snip and I don't get why people treat it as though its worse. Most other religions either say that you automatically convert in the afterlife, or that you're damned for not converting.

No, it's nothing like that. I understand people being pissed off that other religions don't respect their religion. I don't understand why they're more pissed off at the Mormons than they are at other religions.

From a cardinal described as "John Paul II's favorite theologian":

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Modern proponent of the possible "empty Hell".

269 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:06:17pm

re: #268 Decatur Deb

Yeah, and that's the best case scenario from Catholic doctrine: That Jews, in their final moments in the Holocaust, spontaneously rejected their faith and embraced Catholic Christianity.

Which seems pretty goddamn insulting to me too.

270 AK-47%  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:06:34pm

re: #267 jamesfirecat

a lot of people have trouble with the concept of choice. Like the Catholics, who are not being forced to approve of birth control, they are just being required to comply with the law on offering it.

As for abortion, I also do not approve of it as a means of birth control, but I do not think that we have a right to interfere in a woman's decision to get one within certain reasonable lmiits.

271 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:06:37pm

re: #265 Obdicut

I'm not comparing it to a blanket hope for all mankind to accept Jesus. I'm comparing it to the belief, in most mainstream Christian religions that believe good 'pagans' get salvation, that in the afterlife all the good people convert to Christianity. I'm also comparing it to the belief among those Christian religions who believe salvation comes only through faith in Christ that that all those people no matter how good, are damned for their lack of faith in Christ.

I also believe all of that to be equally offensive. Again, it is more offensive when it is personalized to one's own family members. Tell me, how would you feel if the Catholic Church posthumously awarded personalized graduation certificates from Church sponsored "pray away the gay" programs to gay people killed in gay bashing or hate crimes? To make it so that their soul could be saved. Would that not be more offensive than the Church's normal position on homosexuality?

272 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:07:20pm

re: #253 jaunte

The most likely author of the Heartland Institute climate strategy memo?
A [JGAAP] computer analysis may suggest the document's most likely author.

Just two pages, and some of the text in those pages is taken from Bast's memos. I don't believe this analysis to be anywhere near convincing, statistically.

I see this guy tried to delete one sentence, but there are more, incl. the one about Koch returning as a sponsor.

273 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:08:04pm

re: #266 Obdicut

It is within the realm of reason that Hearltand is playing funny buggers with their budget, but it's pure speculation.

I completely, completely agree. The other documents show possible legal violations of the 503 status Heartland enjoys. It's not as dramatic, but it's actually more legally problematic for Heartland, but it's in danger of being sidelined entirely.

And if the document is shown to be a fake, as is likely, nobody will listen to "but those other documents...".

274 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:08:05pm

re: #207 ProGunLiberal

My families big experience with the Mormon Church has rather poor. In 2001, my little sister's kindergarten teacher died. My parents wanted to go to the funeral, but they couldn't go for most of the service, because they weren't Mormon.

My family tends to have a very poor view of Mormons because of this. How poor? We have a Border Collie at home. Whenever a missionary comes to the door, my dad usually lets the dog, which is very territorial, out the door. My mom will usually try to stop my dad's impulsiveness. But she takes no action when this circumstance happens.

I feel neutral on my family's actions.

Um, that's f'ed up dude. Seriously.

275 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:08:39pm

re: #271 The Artist formerly known as Satan

I also believe all of that to be equally offensive. Again, it is more offensive when it is personalized to one's own family members.

Why?

Tell me, how would you feel if the Catholic Church posthumously awarded personalized graduation certificates from Church sponsored "pray away the gay" programs to gay people killed in gay bashing or hate crimes?

I don't think that's comparable in the least. I think a better comparison would be the Catholic Church saying that the only way a dead gay friend of mine was in heaven is if he repented of his gay sins. Which is what they do.

Would that not be more offensive than the Church's normal position on homosexuality?

No. I don't get at all why saying "All the Jews in the Holocaust are damned unless they accepted Jesus" is less offensive than "Martin Fitzruber is damned if he didn't accept Jesus."

The former includes the latter.

276 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:09:38pm

re: #257 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

You have been answered that yesterday. No, we don't know the exact moment of the beginning of personhood. We do know that personhood cannot begin when there isn't even a cerebral cortex. So take the period of the formation, add some time to be safe, and you have the needed cut-off date after which the only reasons for an abortion are health reasons.

Personhood starts at 5:45am.

277 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:09:45pm

re: #272 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Not to mention that Bast himself is less likely of all to commit this mistake about Koch, being the author of all these detailed tables and all.

278 AK-47%  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:10:29pm

re: #275 Obdicut

Why?

I don't think that's comparable in the least. I think a better comparison would be the Catholic Church saying that the only way a dead gay friend of mine was in heaven is if he repented of his gay sins. Which is what they do.

No. I don't get at all why saying "All the Jews in the Holocaust are damned unless they accepted Jesus" is less offensive than "Martin Fitzruber is damned if he didn't accept Jesus."

The former includes the latter.

Hey, even Hitler could have accepted Jesus in the spilt second before biting that cyanide capsue and dying...

279 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:10:38pm

re: #269 Obdicut

Yeah, and that's the best case scenario from Catholic doctrine: That Jews, in their final moments in the Holocaust, spontaneously rejected their faith and embraced Catholic Christianity.

Which seems pretty goddamn insulting to me too.

Goes beyond that, into the notion of the individual's realization and acceptance of the true nature of the universe at death. The author's 'emtpty Hell" extends the hope to those who never heard of Catholic Christianity. (Hey he is a cardinal, after all.)

280 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:11:10pm

I think the deal with the Mormon baptism is that most religions have this kind of deal where they don't pay too much attention to the fact that they're all asserting each other are damned heretics who are doomed unless they convert, and the Mormons are just being more honest and upfront about it-- and saying that that chance to convert doesn't end with death.

281 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:12:02pm

re: #279 Decatur Deb

Yeah, but if this is the same dude I read long ago, doesn't he say they intuit, basically, the tenets of Catholicism in a burst of divine revelation, that they connect with the Catholic god and get all Catholocized in a moment?

282 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:12:47pm

re: #276 I'm a Lefty Moron

Personhood starts at 5:45am.

Not me.

I'm not human at that point.

Check back at 7.

283 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:12:56pm

re: #277 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Not to mention that Bast himself is less likely of all to commit this mistake about Koch, being the author of all these detailed tables and all.

How is he at lying?

284 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:15:23pm

re: #281 Obdicut

Yeah, but if this is the same dude I read long ago, doesn't he say they intuit, basically, the tenets of Catholicism in a burst of divine revelation, that they connect with the Catholic god and get all Catholocized in a moment?

He's assuming the true nature of the universe is his understanding of it, so yes. It would be pretty useless to reject whatever personal revelation death provides. Personally, I expect a cool black wind.

285 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:16:39pm

re: #282 To hold my temper, most of the time.

Not me.

I'm not human at that point.

Check back at 7.

I have a cat overlord who apparently can tell time.
His food bowl is empty at that time, and I'm the only slave who knows how to fill it properly.

286 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:16:44pm

re: #275 Obdicut

I also believe all of that to be equally offensive. Again, it is more offensive when it is personalized to one's own family members.

Why?

You and I have gone down this road before. It is about issue remoteness. Something is more offensive to someone the more it is directed towards them. It has more cogency and more impact.

I don't think that's comparable in the least. I think a better comparison would be the Catholic Church saying that the only way a dead gay friend of mine was in heaven is if he repented of his gay sins. Which is what they do.

Actually I perfer my analogy. Here is why. They are performing an act. A ceremony to confer a particular status on someone posthumously. A status that said particular individual made a choice not to take part in, one that would have offended that person in life. That is wrong. And is different than simply saying he should have repented for his sin. It is taking steps for that person in death they chose not to take themself.

No. I don't get at all why saying "All the Jews in the Holocaust are damned unless they accepted Jesus" is less offensive than "Martin Fitzruber is damned if he didn't accept Jesus."

The former includes the latter.

See my comment above. Issue remoteness. The fact that the former includes the latter is not disputed. Simply the impact that has on the family of a particular person is in question.

287 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:16:58pm

re: #279 Decatur Deb

Goes beyond that, into the notion of the individual's realization and acceptance of the true nature of the universe at death. The author's 'emtpty Hell" extends the hope to those who never heard of Catholic Christianity. (Hey he is a cardinal, after all.)

The Church teaches, in general, that baptism is necessary for salvation. Not necessarily the rite of baptism, but possibly also baptism through martyrdom for Christ, and baptism through a desire of baptism. Plus there is a loophole with a hope for the fate of unbaptized infants. (At what moment of time is an infant no longer an infant? Heh. But I digress.)

Now, obviously, nobody can say with certainty that any given individual did not harbor Catholic thoughts/desire for baptism before death and is therefore not in hell. But we can say with certainty, in aggregate, that most of them didn't. Because that's just not factual. So while we can't pinpoint who is in hell and who isn't, most of them are in hell, as follows from the standard teachings.

288 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:17:12pm

When I was in theatre, the set designer called himself "The Lord of the Flies".

Was he the debbil?

289 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:17:20pm

re: #278 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

Hey, even Hitler could have accepted Jesus in the spilt second before biting that cyanide capsue and dying...

ummm.. He shot himself..Eva bit the capsule...You are right about the split second conversion..Remember the thief on the cross story?
Hey what if he was a Baptist? Once saved always saved? You can get saved and do whatever shit you want after the fact?
Religious belief runs from one extreme to another..

290 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:17:23pm

re: #283 I'm a Lefty Moron

How is he at lying?

Lying for what purpose, in this specific situation?

291 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:19:19pm

re: #284 Decatur Deb

He's assuming the true nature of the universe is his understanding of it, so yes. It would be pretty useless to reject whatever personal revelation death provides. Personally, I expect a cool black wind.

I expect my brain chemicals will go ballistic and I'll relive all my mistakes repeatedly in that single microsecond.

292 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:19:23pm

re: #288 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

When I was in theatre, the set designer called himself "The Lord of the Flies".

Was he the debbil?

Was he in a Blue Dress?

293 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:20:28pm

re: #286 The Artist formerly known as Satan

You and I have gone down this road before. It is about issue remoteness. Something is more offensive to someone the more it is directed towards them. It has more cogency and more impact.

So the Catholic church saying "All gay people are damned unless they repent" is somehow supposed to offend me less than them saying "And that includes your friend Martin"?

They are performing an act. A ceremony to confer a particular status on someone posthumously.

No, this is wrong. Do you understand that this is wrong? What they do-- what they feel they are doing-- is offering a choice to the soul, to convert or not. A choice. Are you not getting that bit?

See my comment above. Issue remoteness. The fact that the former includes the latter is not disputed. Simply the impact that has on the family of a particular person is in question.

But that doesn't match up; people aren't getting upset about their own family members, they're getting upset about it happening to people they have no connection to.

I agree that naming particular people may be part of what makes people irrationally fly off the handle at this, it doesn't change the fact it's an irrational response and that other religions believe in crap that's even more patronizing and insulting.

294 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:20:33pm

re: #278 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

Hey, even Hitler could have accepted Jesus in the spilt second before biting that cyanide capsue and dying...

In the split section between when he lit the match and when he died, did Josh Powell have time to repent?

Personally, don't think so. Two murders takes more remorse than you can summon in such a small time.

295 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:20:44pm

re: #252 BrainSurfer

171? Sure...:

So this is going to boil down to your definition of personhood*
"Personhood" - give me a break from such a PC crappy word. What exactly do mean by "personhood"?

When is that in the fetal development process? If you are looking for a specific time point when an embryo becomes a fetus becomes a baby, go ask different doctors (which I am not) and you will probably get different answers as well.

And what rights does one person have to interfere with those of another?
Now this is a loaded question - it happens all the time every day. The government interferes with our individual rights, organizations of every type can interfere with our rights as individuals, and individuals interfere with other individuals all the time. Question really is - do you have the actual power to stop that interference if it is unwanted, or must you just go along and acquiesce because you are powerless to act?

OK. I will define "personhood" as the point at which the developing fetilized egg should be granted full legal standing and accompanying rights.

296 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:22:10pm

re: #288 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

When I was in theatre, the set designer called himself "The Lord of the Flies".

Was he the debbil?

Before I got my mill, I was Lord of the Files.
And yes, the debbil made me do it.

297 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:22:10pm

re: #290 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Do you have a subscription to a website with random web handles, or are you just copying from spam headers?

Otherwise I have to have some serious considerations about what goes on in your imagination. :=)

298 AK-47%  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:22:14pm

re: #294 To hold my temper, most of the time.

In the split section between when he lit the match and when he died, did Josh Powell have time to repent?

Personally, don't think so. Two murders takes more remorse than you can summon in such a small time.

But we cannot know the ineffable workings of the soul. metaphysics is not subject to the laws of physics

299 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:22:25pm

re: #287 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

The Church teaches, in general, that baptism is necessary for salvation. Not necessarily the rite of baptism, but possibly also baptism through martyrdom for Christ, and baptism through a desire of baptism. Plus there is a loophole with a hope for the fate of unbaptized infants. (At what moment of time is an infant no longer an infant? Heh. But I digress.)

Now, obviously, nobody can say with certainty that any given individual did not harbor Catholic thoughts/desire for baptism before death and is therefore not in hell. But we can say with certainty, in aggregate, that most of them didn't. Because that's just not factual. So while we can't pinpoint who is in hell and who isn't, most of them are in hell, as follows from the standard teachings.

That would be a general assumption, but ain't necessarily so. There are a thousand levels of sophistication in orthodox Catholicsm, from recently converted tribesmen to almost incomprehensible theologians and mystics.
Pope will not presume to say anyone or collectivity is in Hell. That would be like an anti-canonization.

300 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:22:29pm

re: #280 Obdicut

I think the deal with the Mormon baptism is that most religions have this kind of deal where they don't pay too much attention to the fact that they're all asserting each other are damned heretics who are doomed unless they convert, and the Mormons are just being more honest and upfront about it-- and saying that that chance to convert doesn't end with death.

I raised the issue earlier that by using names the Mormons quickly reach a point where they're only baptizing those people who were famous or successful enough to have their names end up in history books. If they were interested in saving all of humanity they'd issue one blanket, massively inclusive baptism for all of humanity, from ditch diggers to kings and everyone in between. Instead the way they do it comes off as elitist, maybe unintentionally but inherently so. It's like they're trying to arrange a really interesting dinner party in the afterlife and have arrogated themselves to keepers of the official list of whose invited.

301 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:22:39pm

re: #170 lawhawk

And one has to wonder why this is coming out now - during a presidential campaign featuring a Mormon as a presumptive front-runner. Coincidence? A way to try and sway Jewish voters?

Fortunately, we Jews aren't that foolish to be swayed by this. While I'm not a big Romney fan, I'm 100% certain he had nothing to do with the posthumous attempt at converting Anne Frank, or any other Jew.

302 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:23:04pm

re: #300 goddamnedfrank

I think they do baptize a bunch of nobodies too, it's just nobody notices.

303 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:23:30pm

re: #288 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

When I was in theatre, the set designer called himself "The Lord of the Flies".

Was he the debbil?

Hope you are well Veggie! I'm watching the Tower Heist.. Good movie..I'm really surprised

304 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:24:16pm

re: #299 Decatur Deb

That would be a general assumption, but ain't necessarily so. There are a thousand levels of sophistication in orthodox Catholicsm, from recently converted tribesmen to almost incomprehensible theologians and mystics.
Pope will not presume to say anyone or collectivity is in Hell. That would be like an anti-canonization.

That would be just bad taste. But the doctrines that are actually taught are pretty clear in their implications.

305 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:24:49pm

re: #300 goddamnedfrank

I raised the issue earlier that by using names the Mormons quickly reach a point where they're only baptizing those people who were famous or successful enough to have their names end up in history books. If they were interested in saving all of humanity they'd issue one blanket, massively inclusive baptism for all of humanity, from ditch diggers to kings and everyone in between. Instead the way they do it comes off as elitist, maybe unintentionally but inherently so. It's like they're trying to arrange a really interesting dinner party in the afterlife and have arrogated themselves to keepers of the official list of whose invited.

No can do. The very nature of baptism is such that it must be individual.

I think this goes for all religions. When that Slavic Prince (coming up blank on the name) herded all of his people down into the river, they all had to go.

306 AK-47%  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:25:11pm

re: #301 reuven

Fortunately, we Jews aren't that foolish to be swayed by this. While I'm not a big Romney fan, I'm 100% certain he had nothing to do with the posthumous attempt at converting Anne Frank, or any other Jew.

his religion plays almost no role in the image and opinion I have of him.

I even sorta liked him until he started campaigning. Now I have no use for him as a presidential candidate.

307 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:25:42pm

re: #302 Obdicut

I think they do baptize a bunch of nobodies too, it's just nobody notices.

I believe that, it's just that they way they do it seems like it can only grab people who've died and had their names survive in documents. If one is actually interested in saving souls this strikes me as an inherently flawed methodology.

308 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:26:14pm

re: #300 goddamnedfrank

I raised the issue earlier that by using names the Mormons quickly reach a point where they're only baptizing those people who were famous or successful enough to have their names end up in history books.

How so? Who said that? Why do you think they do all that elaborate genealogical research?

If they were interested in saving all of humanity they'd issue one blanket, massively inclusive baptism for all of humanity, from ditch diggers to kings and everyone in between.

No, not really. They don't have such a rite.

Instead the way they do it comes off as elitist, maybe unintentionally but inherently so. It's like they're trying to arrange a really interesting dinner party in the afterlife and have arrogated themselves to keepers of the official list of whose invited.

How so? They hope to post-mo baptize everyone.

309 AK-47%  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:26:31pm

re: #307 goddamnedfrank

I believe that, it's just that they way they do it seems like it can only grab people who've died and had their names survive in documents. If one is actually interested in saving souls this strikes me as an inherently flawed methodology.

theology and methodology also have very little in common with each other...

310 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:26:38pm

re: #305 To hold my temper, most of the time.

No can do. The very nature of baptism is such that it must be individual.

I think this goes for all religions. When that Slavic Prince (coming up blank on the name) herded all of his people down into the river, they all had to go.

Vladimir.

311 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:26:45pm

re: #231 The Artist formerly known as Satan

Because it is to the families of the deceased. It is particularly offensive for the family of a holocaust victim who died at the hands of Christians for the crime of being Jewish, to be posthumously baptized into any Christian faith. Where this is some blanket concept, it is less offensive on an individual level as it is both less personal and of less significance. When one person by name is targeted and baptized it is of a different impact on those that might have a relationship to that individual.

Exactly. It's a public insult to the families of the dead. You don't have to believe that their souls are being interfered with to find it offensive.

312 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:27:23pm

re: #310 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Vladimir.

Thanks.

313 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:27:28pm

re: #307 goddamnedfrank

I believe that, it's just that they way they do it seems like it can only grab people who've died and had their names survive in documents. If one is actually interested in saving souls this strikes me as an inherently flawed methodology.

They don't believe the process of baptizing is restricted to this world, so they're not bound by this methodology.

314 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:27:42pm

re: #304 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

That would be just bad taste. But the doctrines that are actually taught are pretty clear in their implications.

In the popular imagination, Hell is pretty crowded. Dante played that best. Much of that is just humans wanting our personal vision of cosmic justice to be executed. Theologically, there are a lot of 'outs' for everybody.

315 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:28:47pm

re: #300 goddamnedfrank

I raised the issue earlier that by using names the Mormons quickly reach a point where they're only baptizing those people who were famous or successful enough to have their names end up in history books. If they were interested in saving all of humanity they'd issue one blanket, massively inclusive baptism for all of humanity, from ditch diggers to kings and everyone in between. Instead the way they do it comes off as elitist, maybe unintentionally but inherently so. It's like they're trying to arrange a really interesting dinner party in the afterlife and have arrogated themselves to keepers of the official list of whose invited.

I believe ancestry.com is a Mormon business, possibly started with this in mind. They purchased many public domain genealogy lists from Europe and Scandinavia to add to their databases, so in principle they have millions of names to baptize, including probably mine. I haven't felt any tingles, but who knows. They could spread this out for a long time if they wished, or they could write a script to do it in a millisecond.

316 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:28:51pm

re: #293 Obdicut

So the Catholic church saying "All gay people are damned unless they repent" is somehow supposed to offend me less than them saying "And that includes your friend Martin"?

Yes. I believe that Martin's mother would likely be more offended by the statement, "Martin is going to hell" than to the statement "all gay people are going to hell". I certainly would if I was at all religious and I was Martin's father.

No, this is wrong. Do you understand that this is wrong? What they do-- what they feel they are doing-- is offering a choice to the soul, to convert or not. A choice. Are you not getting that bit?

No this is not wrong. They are taking the first step. The precursor that allows you to convert in death. I understand there is the choice which follows perfectly well. It does not change the fact that the individual did not ask for that right to be presented, and in life took no steps towards it, and in the case of Holocaust victims was actually killed specifically because they did not choose it.

But that doesn't match up; people aren't getting upset about their own family members, they're getting upset about it happening to people they have no connection to.

Actually it matches up perfectly. Jewish objections to this were centered around the fact that these were done without the consent of the deceased's family members. It was precisely this point that caused the uproar in the Jewish community. The deal that LDS made with the Jewish community was that it would not do it without the consent of the family.

317 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:29:20pm

re: #314 Decatur Deb

In the popular imagination, Hell is pretty crowded. Dante played that best. Much of that is just humans wanting our personal vision of cosmic justice to be executed. Theologically, there are a lot of 'outs' for everybody.

For anybody, but not for everybody. ;)

318 AK-47%  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:30:06pm

re: #314 Decatur Deb

In the popular imagination, Hell is pretty crowded.

Hell is other people, remember?

319 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:30:41pm

re: #315 Red Sea Desjardini Tang

I believe ancestry.com is a Mormon business, possibly started with this in mind. They purchased many public domain genealogy lists from Europe and Scandinavia to add to their databases, so in principle they have millions of names to baptize, including probably mine. I haven't felt any tingles, but who knows. They could spread this out for a long time if they wished, or they could write a script to do it in a millisecond.

You are not...how do I put this gently...dead.

No reputable genealogical company would list your name in a genealogy database if they thought you were alive.

320 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:30:49pm

re: #317 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

For anybody, but not for everybody. ;)

Dunno, and not likely to find out--that agnostic thing again.

321 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:31:05pm

re: #311 Jimmah

Exactly. It's a public insult to the families of the dead. You don't have to believe that their souls are being interfered with to find it offensive.

But so is the Catholic belief that all my non-Catholic ancestors are damned unless in the last moment of their life they accepted Catholicism. And likewise even the soft and plush Presbyterians are jerks in that they think that my ancestors are saved, but that they converted after death and realized the truth of Presbyterianism.

It's all the same bundle of insult and "We're right, you're wrong", and I don't get why the Mormons get singled out. In their case, they're actually offering a choice to the dead, and so they're, to me, one step ahead of a lot of other faiths.

322 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:31:20pm
"For these lamestream media characters to get all wee-weed up about that, first you have to ask yourself have they ever, ever, attended a sunday school class even, have they never heard this terminology before, and that's why the just got so... uh... ya know... just... just whacked out about this speech."

Come off it, Sarah. We've had this terminology spewed at us from televangelists, sandwich board barkers, soap box preachers, and politicians since the day we were born. And beyond that, it has been a popular theme in mainstream fiction for centuries now. You'd have to be a member of a lost tribe in the remotes of the Amazon to have never heard this kind of "terminology".

No, it's not that he stated that there is good and evil in this world that left us scratching our heads. It's that he is a grown man, running for office, that openly and earnestly believes there is powerful, supernatural being of supreme evil at war with a very natural, very ordinary, very real nation. We would be just as gobsmacked if he said that he earnestly believes in Santa Claus.

323 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:32:00pm

re: #311 Jimmah

Exactly. It's a public insult to the families of the dead. You don't have to believe that their souls are being interfered with to find it offensive.

Hi Jimmah! How goes it? You've got mail!

324 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:32:04pm

re: #315 Red Sea Desjardini Tang

I believe ancestry.com is a Mormon business, possibly started with this in mind. They purchased many public domain genealogy lists from Europe and Scandinavia to add to their databases, so in principle they have millions of names to baptize, including probably mine. I haven't felt any tingles, but who knows. They could spread this out for a long time if they wished, or they could write a script to do it in a millisecond.

Nine Billion Names of God.

325 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:33:32pm

re: #313 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

They don't believe the process of baptizing is restricted to this world, so they're not bound by this methodology.

So then, what they're doing in this world with the names of the unbaptized dead is irrelevant even within their own belief system? I don't dispute this but it does strike me as somewhat pointless then.

326 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:34:16pm

re: #307 goddamnedfrank

I believe that, it's just that they way they do it seems like it can only grab people who've died and had their names survive in documents. If one is actually interested in saving souls this strikes me as an inherently flawed methodology.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that this ties in with all the genealogy work that the LDS do. I think the original purpose was to track one's own family back as far as they could to be able to do these types of baptisms for their own ancestors.

327 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:34:59pm

re: #316 The Artist formerly known as Satan

Yes. I believe that Martin's mother would likely be more offended by the statement, "Martin is going to hell" than to the statement "all gay people are going to hell". I certainly would if I was at all religious and I was Martin's father.

Well, you asked me, and I answered you honestly. If I had a son, and he was gay, I'd feel exactly the same about some asshole who said he was damned for being gay and some asshole who said all gay people were damned. It works out to the exact same thing.

No this is not wrong.

It is wrong. The ceremony is not to confer status. That claim is false.

Actually it matches up perfectly. Jewish objections to this were centered around the fact that these were done without the consent of the deceased's family members.

That wasn't my point. I'm pointing out that the main mass of people getting upset are not, themselves, the family members. They're doing it, I guess, on behalf of those family members. It still isn't because the Mormons did something to their family member.

328 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:35:23pm

Dog's patience is at an end. BBL

329 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:35:52pm

re: #325 goddamnedfrank

So then, what they're doing in this world with the names of the unbaptized dead is irrelevant even within their own belief system? I don't dispute this but it does strike me as somewhat pointless then.

It is. But it's a commandment, so whatcha gonna do.

330 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:36:37pm

re: #321 Obdicut

But so is the Catholic belief that all my non-Catholic ancestors are damned unless in the last moment of their life they accepted Catholicism. And likewise even the soft and plush Presbyterians are jerks in that they think that my ancestors are saved, but that they converted after death and realized the truth of Presbyterianism.

It's all the same bundle of insult and "We're right, you're wrong", and I don't get why the Mormons get singled out. In their case, they're actually offering a choice to the dead, and so they're, to me, one step ahead of a lot of other faiths.

They're not singling out individuals - that's what's different.

331 AK-47%  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:36:39pm

re: #326 Sionainn

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that this ties in with all the genealogy work that the LDS do. I think the original purpose was to track one's own family back as far as they could to be able to do these types of baptisms for their own ancestors.

If somebody wants to pray for my recovery when I am ill, than that is fine with me, I find it a nice gesture even though I don't believe it will have much influence on my recovery.

If somebody want to pray for the conversion of dead people, then let them, I find it a pointless gesture because I do not believe that they can have any influence on what happens after a person dies.

332 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:36:57pm

re: #319 To hold my temper, most of the time.

You are not...how do I put this gently...dead.

No reputable genealogical company would list your name in a genealogy database if they thought you were alive.

One doesn't have to be dead to be baptized. Granted, it could be that Momons only do it to the dead, although that sounds like wasting time.

However ancestry.com includes many live people. Some entered by themselves, some entered by others, some entered by official family records (not only of the dead), so I'm not sure what you mean by the latter.

333 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:37:20pm

re: #330 Jimmah

They're not singling out individuals - that's what's different.

How is singling out make it worse?

334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:38:02pm

re: #303 HoosierHoops

Hope you are well Veggie! I'm watching the Tower Heist.. Good movie..I'm really surprised

I thought it was okay. Not great. Alda played a good Madoff-esque villain.

335 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:38:05pm

re: #328 Decatur Deb

Dog's patience is at an end. BBL

Life with a credulous bounty hunter must be rough.

336 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:38:15pm

re: #323 HoosierHoops

Hi Jimmah! How goes it? You've got mail!

Hey hoops! Thanks - we'll be replying shortly. Hope all is well with you!

337 Kragar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:38:26pm

Man, I feel like crap. Wife says I got dressed this morning, wandered around the house for about 10 minutes, then stripped and went back to bed. I don't remember doing that, have a killer headache and feels like I've got a fever.

338 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:38:29pm

re: #287 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

I thought the RC church required baptism and confirmation.

339 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:39:06pm

This debate reminds me of the Kids in the Hall sketch where the guy wakes up to find that his chest has been colonized by Spain and France.

340 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:39:22pm

re: #338 funky chicken

I thought the RC church required baptism and confirmation.

Here's it in short:

[Link: www.catholic.com...]

341 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:40:13pm

re: #330 Jimmah

They're not singling out individuals - that's what's different.

And? Why does that make it more offensive? If someone says "All gay people are going to hell", that includes every gay person, named or not. If the belief is that everyone who doesn't accept jesus is damned, then they really believe all the Jews in the Holocaust are damned unless they accepted Jesus in their dying moments.

I think that people just prefer not to think about it, and Mormons, by being public about it, force it to the surface, and everyone wishes they could stop so they could go back to pretending this isn't the case.

But it is.

342 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:40:37pm

re: #333 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

How is singling out make it worse?

I think that question answers itself.

343 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:40:48pm

re: #290 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Lying for what purpose, in this specific situation?

There was a bit of flippancy in my comment because I'm not really concerned whether the memo was a simple compilation of the other documents or a separate document from Heartland. Their actions are loud enough to convince me they have no compunctions toward lying if it delays fossil use reduction.

Whether an individual from the organization is willing to lie on legal documents, I have no idea, but the documents Heartland admits to are damning enough. If the organization is willing to misrepresent science and scientists, as is obvious in those documents, and Bart is the CEO, well frankly the buck stops with him and he has to assume to reputation of the organization.

344 funky chicken  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:41:12pm

re: #331 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

If somebody wants to pray for my recovery when I am ill, than that is fine with me, I find it a nice gesture even though I don't believe it will have much influence on my recovery.

If somebody want to pray for the conversion of dead people, then let them, I find it a pointless gesture because I do not believe that they can have any influence on what happens after a person dies.

OK. I guess I can see that.

It's weird, but certainly less weird than the Catholic thing where they believe the cracker thing becomes the actual flesh of Jesus and that eating his flesh somehow imbues them with his spirit. Holy cannibalism, batman!

345 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:41:39pm

re: #342 Jimmah

I think that question answers itself.

It doesn't.

346 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:41:54pm

re: #332 Red Sea Desjardini Tang

One doesn't have to be dead to be baptized. Granted, it could be that Momons only do it to the dead, although that sounds like wasting time.

However ancestry.com includes many live people. Some entered by themselves, some entered by others, some entered by official family records (not only of the dead), so I'm not sure what you mean by the latter.

You are right. The WWII registry cards I saw could conceivably include living people, as well as the Nevada divorce records. (Not sure what's up with that.)

Since I know all of my ancestors from that era, I wasn't thinking about that.

I was wrong on this count.

347 Kragar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:43:08pm

Study: Gingrich, Santorum plans hike deficit

Massive tax cuts proposed by GOP presidential candidates Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum would cause the national debt to explode while Mitt Romney's budget plan could generate red ink in line with current projections, according to a new study released Thursday.

The nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, a Washington-based budget watchdog group, estimates that the wrenching budget cuts proposed by Ron Paul would lessen the flow of red ink compared with current policies but still leave the government running a sizable deficit.

The candidates' budget plans provide a sharp contrast with President Barack Obama, who released his latest fiscal blueprint just last week. Like Obama, the GOP candidates have the luxury of suspending political reality and assuming lawmakers would quickly enact their ideas into law.

That translates into a tax code in which taxes on investments and capital gains are sharply reduced or eliminated. Each candidate would eliminate inheritance taxes on large estates. And tax rates on individuals would be cut as well — all in the face of deficits that economists say would eventually cripple the economy.

The results, according to the study, would be higher deficits, except in the case of Paul, whose spending cuts dwarf anything being considered by his three rivals.

348 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:44:21pm

re: #337 Kragar

Man, I feel like crap. Wife says I got dressed this morning, wandered around the house for about 10 minutes, then stripped and went back to bed. I don't remember doing that, have a killer headache and feels like I've got a fever.

I can have a team assembled and ready to exorcise whatever demons are imbalancing your humors within the hour!

349 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:45:09pm

re: #343 I'm a Lefty Moron

Well, lying here is excluded for one reason - there is no cause for it. They have "global warming project", they have "healthcare project", etc. - they openly (in the conf. memo) state what entity gave to what cause. In Koch's case it was for healthcare. If Koch gave to "global warming initiatives", there's no reason to think it wouldn't have been put into that category.

The only explanation is incompetence, but it's hard to swallow, coming from a person who was familiar with all these documents (or maybe even authored them, if the memo author is supposed to be Joe Bast). Not impossible, mind you. Just improbable.

350 Kragar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:45:47pm

re: #348 Slumbering Behemoth

I can have a team assembled and ready to exorcise whatever demons are imbalancing your humors within the hour!

Been exorcising some demons already. Don't go in the bathroom.

351 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:46:17pm

re: #298 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

But we cannot know the ineffable workings of the soul. metaphysics is not subject to the laws of physics

True, so you have to assume without evidence the existence of metaphysics. However, anything produced by those metaphysics that impinges on the physical world can be tested and we have to consider the results of those tests when concluding anything about the reality of the metaphysical.

352 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:46:35pm

re: #327 Obdicut

It is wrong. The ceremony is not to confer status. That claim is false.

The ceremony is absolutely a prerequisite for the choice to be made in death. Therefore it does confer status, the fact that one can in death reject or accept it is irrelevant. Without it, the choice is not even there. Therefore it confers a different status on the deceased than they had prior to the ceremony. It makes them eligible, which is indeed conferring status.

Regardless, After all the entire argument is absurd so one shouldn't get too caught up in the mechanics. It remains obviously offensive regardless of its intent.

353 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:47:27pm

re: #352 The Artist formerly known as Satan

There's nothing wrong with giving a choice, though.

354 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:47:38pm

re: #302 Obdicut

I think they do baptize a bunch of nobodies too, it's just nobody notices.

Intentional or not that was funny.

355 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:47:41pm

re: #345 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

It doesn't.

I think it does, but I'll elaborate - specifically naming individuals potentially causes embarrassment and offence to the families of those particular individuals.

It makes it personal, and therefore more annoying. Maybe it wouldn't be to you, but I think you'd have to accept that it may for others, especially given that this has actually happened.

356 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:48:37pm

re: #355 Jimmah

I think it does, but I'll elaborate - specifically naming individuals potentially causes embarrassment and offence to the families of those particular individuals.

It makes it personal, and therefore more annoying. Maybe it wouldn't be to you, but I think you'd have to accept that it may for others, especially given that this has actually happened.

Oh, certainly. That's why I said that offense is in the eye of the beholder. But people get offended by lots of otherwise innocuous stuff.

357 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:48:58pm

re: #322 Slumbering Behemoth

Come off it, Sarah. We've had this terminology spewed at us from televangelists, sandwich board barkers, soap box preachers, and politicians since the day we were born. And beyond that, it has been a popular theme in mainstream fiction for centuries now. You'd have to be a member of a lost tribe in the remotes of the Amazon to have never heard this kind of "terminology".

No, it's not that he stated that there is good and evil in this world that left us scratching our heads. It's that he is a grown man, running for office, that openly and earnestly believes there is powerful, supernatural being of supreme evil at war with a very natural, very ordinary, very real nation. We would be just as gobsmacked if he said that he earnestly believes in Santa Claus.

I've never attended a Sunday School class. She makes it sound like that's not normal.

358 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:50:13pm

re: #318 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

Hell is other people, remember?

That and habanero peppers.

359 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:50:20pm

re: #357 Sionainn

I've never attended a Sunday School class. She makes it sound like that's not normal.

No, it's normal. If you're a leftist, commie gawd-hater.
/

360 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:51:15pm

re: #353 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

There's nothing wrong with giving a choice, though.

I believe there is, when it is a choice you went through life not wanting, and more importantly, with Holocaust victims, a choice to join that which you were killed for not joining.

361 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:52:02pm

re: #360 The Artist formerly known as Satan

I believe there is, when it is a choice you went through life not wanting, and more importantly, with Holocaust victims, a choice to join that which you were killed for not joining.

But a dead person may have another perspective, why do you want to decide for them?

362 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:53:01pm

re: #331 Ministry of Fairness and Balance

If somebody wants to pray for my recovery when I am ill, than that is fine with me, I find it a nice gesture even though I don't believe it will have much influence on my recovery.

If somebody want to pray for the conversion of dead people, then let them, I find it a pointless gesture because I do not believe that they can have any influence on what happens after a person dies.

I pretty much feel the same way, but that doesn't mean that I don't understand how some people are offended by it. I don't get why people continue to do things regarding certain groups of people when those certain groups of people have made it very clear that they find it offensive. It's not polite.

363 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:53:06pm

re: #350 Kragar

Been exorcising some demons already. Don't go in the bathroom.

Too late. Now my sinuses are bleeding.

364 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:53:41pm

re: #358 I'm a Lefty Moron

That and habanero peppers.

This was recently named the world's hottest pepper.

365 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:55:06pm

re: #356 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Oh, certainly. That's why I said that offense is in the eye of the beholder. But people get offended by lots of otherwise innocuous stuff.

Sure and I can perfectly see why some people wouldn't give a shit at all. However It seems reasonable to me that part of respecting the dead would be not trying to invalidate the beliefs they held while they were alive - I can well understand how relatives of such a person might feel that at some level their life was being called a mistake - in public.

366 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:55:27pm

re: #350 Kragar

Been exorcising some demons already. Don't go in the bathroom.

Don't warn us, warn your wife!

367 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:55:35pm

re: #359 Slumbering Behemoth

No, it's normal. If you're a leftist, commie gawd-hater.
/

I went to Sunday school and before I hit 11 I intended on becoming a Lutheran minister. Then I got smacked on the side of the head with science.

368 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:56:50pm

re: #295 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

OK. I will define "personhood" as the point at which the developing fetilized egg should be granted full legal standing and accompanying rights.

And can get life insurance. How 'old' do you think the insurers will think that should be? Take out a million dollar life insurance policy for an embryo. Embryo sticks in the fallopian tube and dies (accidental?). Quick million. Wonder how long the actuaries will let that fly?

369 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:57:10pm

re: #333 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

How is singling out make it worse?

Let me put it this way. Imagine you are married. Your wife's name is Ms. Carol Bastard (apologies if that is actually her name). Now imagine if she has dyed her hair blond.

2 statements:

1. Women who dye their hair blond are superficial c*nts.

2. Carol Bastard is a superficial c*nt.

To me, these are very different statements. In reality, they say the same thing and when using a venn diagram they will fall into the same sphere. But, as Mr. Bastard, I believe I would be more offended at the second statement.

370 Sionainn  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:57:40pm

re: #359 Slumbering Behemoth

No, it's normal. If you're a leftist, commie gawd-hater.
/

How can one hate that which one does not believe exists? Hmmmm?

371 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:59:08pm

re: #365 Jimmah

Sure and I can perfectly see why some people wouldn't give a shit at all. However It seems reasonable to me that part of respecting the dead would be not trying to invalidate the beliefs they held while they were alive - I can well understand how relatives of such a person might feel that at some level their life was being called a mistake - in public.

I disagree that crunching through names in what is a private temple ceremony constitutes a "public enough" event, although again I acknowledge that people will get offended at such private events too. I also don't believe this ceremony constitutes an invalidation of beliefs, although again I will agree that many people will see it as such.

372 Kragar  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:59:42pm

re: #366 Sionainn

Don't warn us, warn your wife!

Oh, she knows.

373 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 12:59:57pm

re: #352 The Artist formerly known as Satan

The ceremony is absolutely a prerequisite for the choice to be made in death. Therefore it does confer status,

Nope, it offers a choice. They don't claim that those people, afterwards, are Mormons.

the fact that one can in death reject or accept it is irrelevant.

Why do you think so?

374 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 1:00:33pm

re: #369 The Artist formerly known as Satan

Let me put it this way. Imagine you are married. Your wife's name is Ms. Carol Bastard (apologies if that is actually her name). Now imagine if she has dyed her hair blond.

2 statements:

1. Women who dye their hair blond are superficial c*nts.

2. Carol Bastard is a superficial c*nt.

To me, these are very different statements. In reality, they say the same thing and when using a venn diagram they will fall into the same sphere. But, as Mr. Bastard, I believe I would be more offended at the second statement.

I wouldn't. I'd be more offended at the first, since not only my wife dyes her hair blond, but several of my friends.

375 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 1:00:39pm

re: #367 I'm a Lefty Moron

I went to Sunday school and before I hit 11 I intended on becoming a Lutheran minister. Then I got smacked on the side of the head with science.

David Barton was right! You've been led astray from the holy path by false science!

re: #370 Sionainn

How can one hate that which one does not believe exists? Hmmm?

You're absence of faith in the unknown is proof of your hatred.
/

376 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 1:03:22pm

re: #369 The Artist formerly known as Satan

Let me put it this way. Imagine you are married. Your wife's name is Ms. Carol Bastard (apologies if that is actually her name). Now imagine if she has dyed her hair blond.

2 statements:

1. Women who dye their hair blond are superficial c*nts.

2. Carol Bastard is a superficial c*nt.

To me, these are very different statements. In reality, they say the same thing and when using a venn diagram they will fall into the same sphere. But, as Mr. Bastard, I believe I would be more offended at the second statement.

It's not analogous to our situation, as it's a selective insult, rather than singling out proper. Mormon singling out consists of spelling out individual names - that in sum constitute a whole.
So if someone had a slogan "[name], [name], ..., Carol Bastard, ... [name] are superficial c*nts", I don't believe it would differ from the first slogan. It's just more detailed.

377 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 1:05:14pm

re: #338 funky chicken

I thought the RC church required baptism and confirmation.

That's the Cliff Notes version, and the Confirmation part is overstated at that.

378 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 1:06:17pm

I'm off to enlist Obdicut's ancestors in the service of satan. Catch you all later :)

379 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 1:08:20pm

What is said here to be singling out should be properly understood as a detalization.

380 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 1:09:19pm

re: #376 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

It's not analogous to our situation, as it's a selective insult, rather than singling out proper. Mormon singling out consists of spelling out individual names - that in sum constitute a whole.
So if someone had a slogan "[name], [name], ..., Carol Bastard, ... [name] are superficial c*nts", I don't believe it would differ from the first slogan. It's just more detailed.

Don't really understand your first part. Is it not correct that if you are not a Christian and you are not named in one of these ceremonies you would not be eligible for choosing to be saved in the afterlife?. Therefore that is no different than saying all Jews (other than one's called in this ceremony) have no chance at salvation. In other words, Jews are damned. It is not the naming that damns them, it is the naming that affords them the chance to be saved.

381 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 1:10:47pm

re: #376 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

It's not analogous to our situation, as it's a selective insult, rather than singling out proper. Mormon singling out consists of spelling out individual names - that in sum constitute a whole.
So if someone had a slogan "[name], [name], ..., Carol Bastard, ... [name] are superficial c*nts", I don't believe it would differ from the first slogan. It's just more detailed.

Yes, but the devil is in the details./

382 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 1:13:21pm

re: #380 The Artist formerly known as Satan

Is it not correct that if you are not a Christian and you are not named in one of these ceremonies you would not be eligible for choosing to be saved in the afterlife?

That's correct only in a certain formal-logical sense. This is the point: they aim to offer this choice to every single human being. They also believe that this work will continue after the second coming (or however they call it), with complete name lists. So, in the end, they believe that everyone will make that choice.

383 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 1:15:17pm

re: #382 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

That, by the way, is why they so easily agreed to avoid baptizing Jews (these recent mishaps notwithstanding). They believe they will still have a chance to do it after Jesus returns.

384 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 1:35:26pm

For future reference:

[Link: www.lds.org...]

What Will Be Done during the Millennium?

There will be two great works for members of the Church during the Millennium: temple work and missionary work. Temple work involves the ordinances that are necessary for exaltation. These include baptism, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the temple ordinances—the endowment, temple marriage, and the sealing together of family units.

Many people have died without receiving these ordinances. People on the earth must perform these ordinances for them. This work is now being done in the temples of the Lord. There is too much work to finish before the Millennium begins, so it will be completed during that time. Resurrected beings will help us correct the mistakes we have made in doing research concerning our dead ancestors. They will also help us find the information we need to complete our records.

385 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 4:01:56pm

re: #39 NJDhockeyfan

Do you think all these riots would have been avoided if a muslim soldier burned them with respect?

Probably not, if the word got out, and it was useful to someone to whip up anger that day.

386 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 4:07:19pm

re: #79 zora

and if you believe in satan and that he is attacking american. who in the world would want santorum to be our champion against satan? may as well just give him america now.

John Constantine for President!

387 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 4:09:31pm

re: #131 BrainSurfer

Also think he is a major share holder in Planned Parenthood.

What about Kaiser Permanente?

388 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 4:10:59pm

re: #148 Obdicut

See, the way that fails is that I really doubt any Mormons will give a single solitary shit about it.

Awful lot of people I know are very pleased with that.

I have problems with it.

389 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 4:13:43pm

re: #167 Obdicut

First of all 'they' didn't do it. The Mormon Church has a policy of not doing this. Individual Mormons did it.

Second of all, how is this different from other religions saying prayers for the souls of the departed of other faiths, or asserting that the good people from other faiths will be converted in the afterlife? Most other religions have beliefs and practices just as weird and problematic, so why do the Mormons get singled out?

First, it is different to actually do a ritual act to bring a specific person into a specific religion. Much different from simply praying for the departed.

But secondly, why do Mormons get singled out?

1. They get hammered by both secularists and the religious right.
2. People are trying to fuck with Mitt Romney right now.

390 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 4:13:54pm

re: #169 J. Bastard (Buttland Institute)

Because you can beat up on Mormons and get away with it. No matter that they're not weirder than any other religion.

And this.

391 CriticalDragon1177  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:19:08pm

Charles Johnson

SATAN! He is the cause of all the world's evil. Everyone knows that, not just Christians, its just that everyone else lies! LOL!

392 krypto  Thu, Feb 23, 2012 6:33:37pm

And here I was worried that Santorum would tell us that Satan is behind evils like the mutilations and child soldier enslavement being carried out by the Lord's Liberation Army in Uganda, and the mass murder in progress in Syria.

How foolish to believe Satan would bother with such trifles. Thanks to Santorum and Palin, we now all know that the Father of All Evil has much bigger fish to fry, namely stuff like forcing the Catholic church's employee health insurance to cover contraceptives.


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