Trayvon Martin and the Pro-Gun Right Wing Lobby

How to get away with murder
US News • Views: 38,609

If you’ve been trying to make sense out of the blizzard of information about the Florida shooting death of 17-year old Trayvon Martin, here’s a very good explainer at Mother Jones: The Trayvon Martin Killing, Explained.

The more we learn about this case, the more it looks like a serious miscarriage of justice. Trayvon Martin was gunned down by a vigilante who ignored 911 instructions not to follow the young man, while he was simply walking home from the store.

How is it possible that the alleged shooter, George Zimmerman, was not even detained for killing Martin? Because Florida conservatives and the NRA pushed through broad “stand your ground” laws, which make it incredibly easy to claim self-defense in cases like this; all the shooter has to say is that he felt threatened — whether there was really a threat or not. And 17 other states have now followed suit.

Under then-Gov. Jeb Bush, the state in 2005 passed a broad “stand your ground” law, which allows Florida residents to use deadly force against a threat without attempting to back down from the situation. (More stringent self-defense laws state that gun owners have “a duty to retreat” before resorting to killing.) In championing the law, former NRA president and longtime Florida gun lobbyist Marion Hammer said: “Through time, in this country, what I like to call bleeding heart criminal coddlers want you to give a criminal an even break, so that when you’re attacked, you’re supposed to turn around and run, rather than standing your ground and protecting yourself and your family and your property.”

Again, the Sunshine State was the trendsetter: 17 states have since passed “stand your ground” laws, which critics call a “license to kill” or a “shoot first” law. The law has been unpopular with law enforcement officers in Florida, since it makes it much more difficult to charge shooters with a crime and has regularly confounded juries in murder cases; many Orlando-area cops reportedly have given up investigating “self-defense” cases as a result, referring them to the overloaded state attorney’s office for action. A 2010 study by the Tampa Bay Times found that “justifiable homicides” had tripled in the state since the law went into effect.

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271 comments
1 jaunte  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:43:11pm
The law has been unpopular with law enforcement officers in Florida, since it makes it much more difficult to charge shooters with a crime and has regularly confounded juries in murder cases; many Orlando-area cops reportedly have given up investigating “self-defense” cases as a result, referring them to the overloaded state attorney’s office for action.

In this case, it sounds like the police were actively steering the case in that direction:

"...after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective pepppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help."
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

2 Kragar  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:43:22pm

The more I read, the more pissed I get. I hope the Feds step in.

3 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:45:02pm

re: #2 Kragar

The more I read, the more pissed I get. I hope the Feds step in.

That.

It seems clear enough that the local authorities aren't interested in uncovering what really happened.

4 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:45:37pm

I disagree, Charles. A miscarraige of justice implies that the process of justice started and got derailed. This time it never even got off the ground.

This is the reservoir tip of justice.

5 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:48:06pm

If only we could give guns to everyone, this would have been avoided!!!

6 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:48:54pm

The thing I don't understand is why it's not mandatory for it to go before a grand jury when someone dies. "Stand your ground" or not, isn't there a duty to present all the facts and let a grand jury decide whether to true-bill or not?

7 Kragar  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:50:54pm

So "standing your ground" means you can shoot a kid in the streets?

8 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:52:16pm

And the NRA will likely shrug and declare that it better that a few innocents get gunned down in the street by trigger-happy assholes than actually reduce such crimes by holding the people doing the shooting accountable for their actions.

9 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:52:41pm

re: #7 Kragar

That's what I'm seeing. Even if you get out of your car and pursue him after the police have told you NOT TO DO JUST THAT.

So, to recap, he shot a kid in a confrontation that he himself caused and legally did nothing wrong.

10 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:52:53pm

re: #7 Kragar

Sadly, yes. Per their law I could have a gun, claim i felt threatened by someone looking at me funny and shoot them dead.

11 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:56:20pm

I thought stand your ground laws only applied when the shooter didn't initiate the encounter.

The math on this is just so simple, Zimmerman of his own volition and directly against the 911 operators instruction initiated an unnecessary altercation outside his own "castle," and ended up shooting and killing an unarmed minor.

If he had his gun out prior to accosting the kid the kid probably reasonably believed that he was being robbed. The only one with the power and ability to prevent the situation from escalating unnecessarily was Zimmerman, who looks like a puffed up vigilante with a history of poor impulse control.

12 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 3:59:17pm

we need more guns to protect us from the guns

13 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:00:56pm

re: #11 goddamnedfrank

he was following the kid in a car, he wasn't even in his home.

14 Kronocide  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:01:01pm

Airtight Logic - Gun Rights Version

15 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:01:33pm

re: #10 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Sadly, yes. Per their law I could have a gun, claim i felt threatened by someone looking at me funny and shoot them dead.

More than that, I could get out of my car, go confront him, then decide I felt "threatened." Geez.

16 Kronocide  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:04:27pm

Through time, in this country, what I like to call bleeding heart criminal coddlers want you to give a criminal an even break....

Mr Objectivity, is that you?

So if you don't support 'stand your ground' law you're a bleeding heart criminal coddler. You're either with us or against us.

17 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:05:15pm

The cops also failed to test Zimmerman for alcohol or drugs, or detain him and question him back at the station.

This may be because, as Mother Jones has it, the current law makes it too difficult for them to get an arrest in cases like this. But it seems that they didn't make the barest effort, really.

18 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:06:24pm

re: #17 Obdicut

The cops also failed to test Zimmerman for alcohol or drugs, or detain him and question him back at the station.

This may be because, as Mother Jones has it, the current law makes it too difficult for them to get an arrest in cases like this. But it seems that they didn't make the barest effort, really.

Sounds like, by this point, they've just thrown their hands up and decided it's better not to pursue such cases until either A) the law gets tossed or B) it gets clarified in a manner that makes it possible for them to reliably prosecute assholes like this one.

19 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:06:27pm

re: #5 Meh.

If only we could give guns to everyone, this would have been avoided!!!

Fukkin' eh!

20 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:07:58pm

re: #7 Kragar

So "standing your ground" means you can shoot a kid in the streets?

Sounds like it. It takes a real bright moron to see a law like that has some serious problems.

21 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:08:46pm

re: #12 SpaceJesus

we need more guns to protect us from the guns

We need bigger guns.

22 BongCrodny  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:09:00pm

"This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something," Zimmerman told the dispatcher. "It's raining, and he's just walking around looking about."

Welcome to Florida, where walking around looking about is a capital offense.

23 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:09:47pm

re: #22 BongCrodny

"This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something," Zimmerman told the dispatcher. "It's raining, and he's just walking around looking about."

Welcome to Florida, where walking around looking about is a capital offense.

While black and male.

24 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:10:01pm
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

2 (b) is interesting because it seems to indicate that had Zimmerman instead shot the kid's father then the Stand Your Ground defense would not apply.

25 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:10:09pm

re: #22 BongCrodny

Remind me never to be lost in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

26 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:10:53pm

Hey Charles! Did you know the DHS reads LGF?

I was looking at the analytics for a TSA-critical blog I run as "therapy" (I update it while waiting in airport lounges, something I do 2-4 hours/week), and noticed that one of the largest traffic sources by IP address was the "Department of Homeland Security!"

I also noticed that several of the referrer with a DHS IP address were from LGF!

216.81.94.68 - - [19/Mar/2012:15:04:01 +0000] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 10302 "[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 5.1; Trident/4.0; GTB7.3; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729)"

NetRange: 216.81.80.0 - 216.81.95.255
CIDR: 216.81.80.0/20
OriginAS:
NetName: ONENET
NetHandle: NET-216-81-80-0-1
Parent: NET-216-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
RegDate: 2008-05-07
Updated: 2012-03-02
Ref: [Link: whois.arin.net...]

OrgName: DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
OrgId: DHS-37
Address: 7681 BOSTON BLVD
Address: NDC I
City: SPRINGFIELD
StateProv: VA
PostalCode: 22153
Country: US
RegDate: 2005-12-05
Updated: 2011-09-24
Ref: [Link: whois.arin.net...]

There are queries from the DHS all over my blog. Apparently, they think they can keep America safe from terrorists by reading people's blogs about South Park episodes.

27 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:13:39pm
Zimmerman had called police 46 times since January of last year and had been previously arrested for assault on a police officer.

If he had been convicted on that assault charge he wouldn't have been allowed to own a gun.

28 Kronocide  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:15:16pm
This has led to some stunning verdicts in the state. In Tallahassee in 2008, two rival gangs engaged in a neighborhood shootout, and a 15-year-old African American male was killed in the crossfire. The three defendants all either were acquitted or had their cases dismissed, because the defense successfully argued they were defending themselves under the "stand your ground" law. The state attorney in Tallahassee, Willie Meggs, was beside himself. "Basically this law has put us in the posture that our citizens can go out into the streets and have a gun fight and the dead person is buried and the survivor of the gun fight is immune from prosecution," he said at the time.

Oh whoops, didn't think about that. If only the innocent bystander was armed too, then it would have turned out better, right?

29 BongCrodny  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:15:44pm

Police records show Zimmerman had called 911 a total of 46 times between Jan. 1 and the day he shot Martin.

That's an average of once a day. I could be wrong, but it sounds like Zimmerman was itchin' for a little action.

I would love to hear the playbacks of those 46 911 calls. I'll bet you could learn a lot about the guy from those.

30 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:16:17pm

The Florida law is an utter abomination - and I say that as a very hard core believer in the 2nd amendment and a person's right to self defense. A teen is dead because of one ass hat's egotism and this law makes justice impossible. I believe that if this is rule "self defense" or otherwise "justified" his parents are legally barred from filing a civil suit against the shooter which is even more of an abomination.

An armed citizen needs to be held to a far higher standard than a normal civilian. It needs to be understood as a terribly dangerous responsibility not entered into lightly. Not this.

Hopefully his parents can get a federal civil rights lawsuit going soon because once again only the federal government can give any chance of justice to the aggrieved in these circumstances.

31 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:16:33pm

re: #9 Meh.

That's what I'm seeing. Even if you get out of your car and pursue him after the police have told you NOT TO DO JUST THAT.

So, to recap, he shot a kid in a confrontation that he himself caused and legally did nothing wrong.

There was a similar case in Texas a while back. Law Enforcement was called and told the caller (supoosed law abdiding citizen with a gun) to back off. He didn't and shot the men in the back. He was prosecuted for murder.

32 BongCrodny  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:17:28pm

re: #30 William Barnett-Lewis

An armed citizen needs to be held to a far higher standard than a normal civilian.

This.

33 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:17:30pm

re: #26 ReamWorks

Hey Charles! Did you know the DHS reads LGF?

I was looking at the analytics for a TSA-critical blog I run as "therapy" (I update it while waiting in airport lounges, something I do 2-4 hours/week), and noticed that one of the largest traffic sources by IP address was the "Department of Homeland Security!"

I also noticed that several of the referrer with a DHS IP address were from LGF!

NetRange: 216.81.80.0 - 216.81.95.255
CIDR: 216.81.80.0/20
OriginAS:
NetName: ONENET
NetHandle: NET-216-81-80-0-1
Parent: NET-216-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
RegDate: 2008-05-07
Updated: 2012-03-02
Ref: [Link: whois.arin.net...]

OrgName: DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
OrgId: DHS-37
Address: 7681 BOSTON BLVD
Address: NDC I
City: SPRINGFIELD
StateProv: VA
PostalCode: 22153
Country: US
RegDate: 2005-12-05
Updated: 2011-09-24
Ref: [Link: whois.arin.net...]

There are queries from the DHS all over my blog. Apparently, they think they can keep America safe from terrorists by reading people's blogs about South Park episodes.

That's cause there are too many Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists and Christians here. That much variety must pose a threat somewhere.

34 Idle Drifter  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:18:44pm

I'm for concealed carry and for the castle doctrine. This is a clear cut case of murder. Zimmerman should have been arrested by officers arriving on scene. Zimmerman should have been charged with a whole series of crimes or at least institutionalize.

The CCW class I took in Michigan included instructors who were police officers. They were very explicit in not going to look for trouble. Be alert for signs of trouble, avoid possible danger areas such as dark alleyways, evade if possible and contact the police. The use of deadly force was always a last resort.

This is a horribly written law as it is too broad. It needs to be repealed or amended to make it more clear that what Zimmerman did is grounds for getting charged with murder. Initiating contact is only necessary for the castle doctrine.

35 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:19:05pm

re: #29 BongCrodny

Police records show Zimmerman had called 911 a total of 46 times between Jan. 1 and the day he shot Martin.

That's an average of once a day. I could be wrong, but it sounds like Zimmerman was itchin' for a little action.

I would love to hear the playbacks of those 46 911 calls. I'll bet you could learn a lot about the guy from those.

But she bought BROWN BREAD!!1!

36 Hal_10000  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:19:07pm

I have to disagree with Mother Jones' analysis. There's no perfect solution but the duty to retreat laws were so bad that you could wake up to find someone in your houses and be charged with murder if you defended yourself. Even if you won, the prosecution was ruinous.

This isn't, to me, a "stand your ground" issue. Stand your ground does not mean you can wander the streets gunning down anyone who looks suspicious, especially if, as seems the case, he was warned off and shot the guy after he was down. This seems to be more like a case where the cops are making excuses to not charge the guy.

And I'd like to see more attention paid when cops do stuff like this. The Jordan Miles case is in the courts right now, but no one seems to care.

37 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:19:09pm

re: #29 BongCrodny

Police records show Zimmerman had called 911 a total of 46 times between Jan. 1 and the day he shot Martin.

That's an average of once a day. I could be wrong, but it sounds like Zimmerman was itchin' for a little action.

I would love to hear the playbacks of those 46 911 calls. I'll bet you could learn a lot about the guy from those.

Considering he was "self-appointed," my guess is he's been getting a lot of shit from his neighbors about his attitude. Probably figured that Martin looked like a gang banger or dope head he could catch and hold til the cops showed up, then parade that around.

38 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:19:48pm

Please don't paint all NRA members with the same brush. I am an NRA member and know that if you 911, you do what they tell you.

Personally, I have to wonder how much danger a person was in if they had time to call 911 in the first place.

39 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:19:51pm

re: #30 William Barnett-Lewis

Maybe someone will feel threatened by Zimmerman. I'm just sayin'.

40 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:21:07pm

re: #36 Hal_10000

The law, as it stands, does appear to be a problem. This isn't related to defense of the house, but standing your ground in public, which is very different.

I also think shooting an unarmed intruder without giving him a chance to flee is wrong.

41 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:22:16pm

If carrying a weapon is defensive, and part of the defence is deterrence, then what is the purpose of concealed carry?

42 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:23:12pm

re: #41 A Little Bit Shady

If carrying a weapon is defensive, and part of the defence is deterrence, then what is the purpose of concealed carry?

Not to scare everybody around you.

43 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:23:39pm

re: #39 Tourquoise Supremacist

Sorry but that's just as unacceptable. Understandable to a certain degree but I am reminded of ol' Freddies comment about staring in the abyss...

44 drool  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:23:52pm

Stand your ground means that...not chase down somebody who you don't like the look of. There is not firearms instructor on the planet that would advocate what this guy did.

45 Ming  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:24:07pm

It is very important that George Zimmerman be charged with a serious crime. If he's not charged, this sends the message that in many jurisdictions in America, you can take a human life, as long as you have a "good reason". To give one of the understatements of the year, this is a heckuva slippery slope!

If the state of Florida doesn't file charges, this really begs the federal government to step in. I remember when those 4 LA police officers were tried in federal court for violating Rodney King's civil rights. Trayvon Martin's civil rights were obviously violated, to say the least.

If the right wing objects to charging George Zimmerman, this really puts the lie to their claim to be "tough on crime".

My heart goes out to the Martin family.

46 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:25:17pm

re: #40 Obdicut

The law, as it stands, does appear to be a problem. This isn't related to defense of the house, but standing your ground in public, which is very different.

I also think shooting an unarmed intruder without giving him a chance to flee is wrong.

Well, if you are an old lady in a wheelchair, he doesn't have to be "armed" with a weapon to be very dangerous to you.

Anyone entering my house after dark, uninvited is not there for any good reason.

The problems come when people aren't trained in the use of their weapon and act out of fear. Or, IMHO, when alcohol or too much testosterone is involved.

47 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:25:26pm

re: #43 William Barnett-Lewis

Take it up with those who basically legalized murder.

48 Amory Blaine  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:25:54pm

Here is a case in Wisconsin where someone apparently got confused at a house party and mistakenly went to a house next door and was shot dead by the homeowner. They just passed the "Castle Doctrine" here.

In Slinger, a call about a house party, then a fatal shooting

Slinger police are investigating a fatal shooting at a house near where officers earlier had received a call complaining about a suspected underage drinking party.

On Saturday night, police identified the man as Bo A. Morrison, 20, of West Bend.

Police weren't able to reach anyone at the house when they first were called about the party. More than an hour later, they found the body of Morrison at a neighbor's house when a homeowner called to say that he'd shot an intruder.

According to a news release, police went to a house in the 100 block of N. Kettle Moraine Drive about 12:50 a.m. after receiving a complaint about loud noise. The caller suspected someone at the house was hosting an underage drinking party.

Police arrived and knocked on the door but got no response. They also spoke to one of the neighboring homeowners by phone, who told them she was at work. After police left, the woman contacted police and said she had reached her husband who had been asleep.

About 2 a.m., the woman's husband called police to say he had shot an intruder. When officers arrived, they found Morrison on the porch. He had been shot in the chest. He was dead at the scene.

Police said the man who shot Morrison was interviewed by authorities and released. The case remains under investigation.

Here's an update about the castle doctrine defense for this case.

Forgot to mention the victim was african american. Don't know the identity of the shooter.

49 Idle Drifter  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:26:37pm

re: #41 A Little Bit Shady

If carrying a weapon is defensive, and part of the defence is deterrence, then what is the purpose of concealed carry?

Defense and deterrence vary in the method. Deterrence is that everyone knows you have a the means to defend yourself. Concealed carry is part piece of mind, alertness, and defensive behavior. Letting everyone know you're carrying a gun might not be the most polite or smart thing to do as someone may target you for your weapon. Being alert and aware of your surroundings is deterrence. The weapon is the defense.

50 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:27:12pm

re: #46 ggt

Anyone entering my house after dark, uninvited is not there for any good reason.

Sure. But it may be a drunk dude from next door who thought this was his house. Or a junkie looking to steal something who's never committed an offense in their life. Or a friend who you forgot you gave a key to, who thought you were out.

Just give people a chance to get the hell out of there before you start blazing away. And don't try to tie them up and hold them for the police.

51 BongCrodny  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:27:54pm

Walking around on a dark, rainy night, and some guy approaches you with a gun in his hand.

There's no way to ever know this given that Martin is dead, but maybe he thought he was being mugged.

52 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:28:10pm

re: #41 A Little Bit Shady

If carrying a weapon is defensive, and part of the defence is deterrence, then what is the purpose of concealed carry?

The idea is this - in a place where CCW is allowed anyone might be armed as opposed to a place where CCW is not allowed and everyone is a defenseless sheep victim. Therefore the criminal will supposedly think that it's too dangerous to attack anyone. Instead, in the real world, they simply have the usual "that only happens to someone else" mentality and presume some other pigeon is carrying the weapons and will run away, quickly, when proven else wise.

53 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:28:28pm

re: #50 Obdicut

Sure. But it may be a drunk dude from next door who thought this was his house. Or a junkie looking to steal something who's never committed an offense in their life. Or a friend who you forgot you gave a key to, who thought you were out.

Just give people a chance to get the hell out of there before you start blazing away. And don't try to tie them up and hold them for the police.

Both can be pretty scary and unstable people. I don't want to be raped either.

I have dogs to sound the alarm.

54 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:28:58pm

re: #40 Obdicut

The law, as it stands, does appear to be a problem. This isn't related to defense of the house, but standing your ground in public, which is very different.

I also think shooting an unarmed intruder without giving him a chance to flee is wrong.

I've always wondered: If having a gun is to protect your home, do you walk around all day with a holster and gun or do you secrete loaded guns all over the house and do you sleep with a loaded gun under your pillow.

I guess if you had an alarm system it might give you enough time to pull your gun out of the gun case, remove the trigger lock, run to wherever your ammo happens to be and load the gun. It could also change the intruder's mind.

55 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:29:03pm

re: #45 Ming

It is very important that George Zimmerman be charged with a serious crime. If he's not charged, this sends the message that in many jurisdictions in America, you can take a human life, as long as you have a "good reason". To give one of the understatements of the year, this is a heckuva slippery slope!

If the state of Florida doesn't file charges, this really begs the federal government to step in. I remember when those 4 LA police officers were tried in federal court for violating Rodney King's civil rights. Trayvon Martin's civil rights were obviously violated, to say the least.

If the right wing objects to charging George Zimmerman, this really puts the lie to their claim to be "tough on crime".

My heart goes out to the Martin family.

I've heard one line used that might be taken up if this case does go federal, and that's "Zimmerman had injuries to his face, did he beat himself up!?" So yeah, I won't be surprised if there are those who try to defend Zimmerman, if only out of fear that a conviction against him might affect their "Second Amendment solutions."

56 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:29:56pm

re: #42 Targetpractice

Not to scare everybody around you.

So direct deterrent is not part of carrying a gun.

57 William of Orange  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:30:06pm

Sorry to post this but my irony detector blew up reading this.

Arpaio sees media conspiracy against ‘birthers’


Hahahaa!!!!

58 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:31:35pm

Has it been confirmed that it was Trayvon screaming for help?

59 Hal_10000  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:31:43pm

re: #40 Obdicut

The law, as it stands, does appear to be a problem. This isn't related to defense of the house, but standing your ground in public, which is very different.

I also think shooting an unarmed intruder without giving him a chance to flee is wrong.

In principle, yes. In practice, it is difficult to determine whether someone is armed or not. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that i someone breaks into your home, they intend harm.

60 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:31:59pm

re: #46 ggt

Well, if you are an old lady in a wheelchair, he doesn't have to be "armed" with a weapon to be very dangerous to you.

Anyone entering my house after dark, uninvited is not there for any good reason.

The problems come when people aren't trained in the use of their weapon and act out of fear. Or, IMHO, when alcohol or too much testosterone is involved.

Someone enters your house after dark, where is your gun?

61 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:32:43pm

re: #60 A Little Bit Shady

Someone enters your house after dark, where is your gun?

HA! I'm not telling.

62 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:33:13pm

re: #50 Obdicut

Sure. But it may be a drunk dude from next door who thought this was his house. Or a junkie looking to steal something who's never committed an offense in their life. Or a friend who you forgot you gave a key to, who thought you were out.

Just give people a chance to get the hell out of there before you start blazing away. And don't try to tie them up and hold them for the police.

That's why you need to have a flashlight and identify the person long before your finger should ever be near the trigger.

There is a very good and very sobering discussion on this in the recent book "Combat Shooting with Massad Ayoob." For those unfamiliar with him, Massad Ayoob is a policeman who is an expert on self-defense shootings and what separates good from bad shootings.

63 BongCrodny  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:33:41pm

re: #50 Obdicut

Sure. But it may be a drunk dude from next door who thought this was his house. Or a junkie looking to steal something who's never committed an offense in their life. Or a friend who you forgot you gave a key to, who thought you were out.

Just give people a chance to get the hell out of there before you start blazing away. And don't try to tie them up and hold them for the police.

I still remember a story from years back about a guy who shot and killed his daughter; she came home from college wanting to surprise him and hid in the closet. If I recall the situation correctly (it's been a long time since I read this, so I may be misremembering it), he fired the gun through the closed closet door.

Sometimes the castle defense is justified. Not sure if it's worth the potential for a lifetime of loss and regret.

64 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:33:47pm

re: #59 Hal_10000

In principle, yes. In practice, it is difficult to determine whether someone is armed or not. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that i someone breaks into your home, they intend harm.

Statistically, it is. There are far more break-ins that aren't violent than ones that are.

I mean, if you want to actually assume the more probable thing.

You really think it's fine to just shoot dead any intruder in your house? Not even give them a warning?

65 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:34:27pm

re: #62 William Barnett-Lewis

That's why you need to have a flashlight and identify the person long before your finger should ever be near the trigger.

There is a very good and very sobering discussion on this in the recent book "Combat Shooting with Massad Ayoob." For those unfamiliar with him, Massad Ayoob is a policeman who is an expert on self-defense shootings and what separates good from bad shootings.

Excellent Author.

66 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:35:11pm

re: #56 A Little Bit Shady

So direct deterrent is not part of carrying a gun.

People tend to get uptight when they see a weapon, even if it's in a holster.

67 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:35:36pm

re: #62 William Barnett-Lewis

I think people who carry guns should have conversations with police or veterans who have actually shot and killed people, so they can understand the psychological toll it takes on you, too. Even justified shootings often rip up a person. If the shooting is of an unarmed person, it's much worse for you.

We're humans. We feel stuff. Like guilt over killing. I'm glad we do.

68 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:36:07pm

re: #66 Targetpractice

People tend to get uptight when they see a weapon, even if it's in a holster.

Yeah, I don't get that.

69 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:37:01pm

re: #64 Obdicut

Statistically, it is. There are far more break-ins that aren't violent than ones that are.

I mean, if you want to actually assume the more probable thing.

You really think it's fine to just shoot dead any intruder in your house? Not even give them a warning?

On one hand, I agree with you. Most intruders will flee from confrontation.

On the other, I agree with Hal. You have no way of knowing what their intentions are.

70 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:37:21pm

re: #67 Obdicut

I think people who carry guns should have conversations with police or veterans who have actually shot and killed people, so they can understand the psychological toll it takes on you, too. Even justified shootings often rip up a person. If the shooting is of an unarmed person, it's much worse for you.

We're humans. We feel stuff. Like guilt over killing. I'm glad we do.

IIRC, Concealed Carry requires classes that cover this. I've met people who were so freaked out after the classes they decided not to apply for concealed carry. The responsibility was too great.

71 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:38:02pm

re: #69 Meh.

You have no way of knowing the intentions of someone who tries to punch you, either. Do you think that it's justified to shoot someone who's taking a swing at you?

He might intend to beat you to death, after all.

72 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:38:13pm

re: #58 Meh.

Has it been confirmed that it was Trayvon screaming for help?

No. they are going to do a voice analysis but police believe it was Zimmerman calling for help.

73 kirkspencer  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:38:17pm

re: #52 William Barnett-Lewis

The idea is this - in a place where CCW is allowed anyone might be armed as opposed to a place where CCW is not allowed and everyone is a defenseless sheep victim. Therefore the criminal will supposedly think that it's too dangerous to attack anyone. Instead, in the real world, they simply have the usual "that only happens to someone else" mentality and presume some other pigeon is carrying the weapons and will run away, quickly, when proven else wise.

Anecdote. Source: I worked in the prison system for a while, and listened to inmate chatter. The general agreement was that barking dogs were more likely to deter home invasion than possible firearms.

Take it with as much salt as you like.

74 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:38:50pm

re: #66 Targetpractice

People tend to get uptight when they see a weapon, even if it's in a holster.

Even here in the wild wild west. There was a guy across the street wearing a gun in a holster and a woman came into my shop and started talking about "we don't know who he is or why he's carrying a gun..." I took her for someone who moved here recently, but she said she's a native.

75 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:39:23pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

No. they are going to do a voice analysis but police believe it was Zimmerman calling for help.

They believe it so much that they told one witness that she was wrong when she said it was Trayvon calling for help.

76 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:40:15pm

re: #49 Idle Drifter

Defense and deterrence vary in the method. Deterrence is that everyone knows you have a the means to defend yourself. Concealed carry is part piece of mind, alertness, and defensive behavior. Letting everyone know you're carrying a gun might not be the most polite or smart thing to do as someone may target you for your weapon. Being alert and aware of your surroundings is deterrence. The weapon is the defense.

Being alert and aware is your defence.
The weapon is a sure fire way of shooting yourself in the foot.

What is the probability of successfully using a concealed firearm when accosted?

77 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:41:09pm

re: #62 William Barnett-Lewis

That's why you need to have a flashlight and identify the person long before your finger should ever be near the trigger.

There is a very good and very sobering discussion on this in the recent book "Combat Shooting with Massad Ayoob." For those unfamiliar with him, Massad Ayoob is a policeman who is an expert on self-defense shootings and what separates good from bad shootings.

Ayoob's stuff also very much emphasizes avoiding a cowboy vigilante mentality, and that even a justified shooting is one of the most potentially life-ruining things you can ever be involved in.

78 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:41:59pm

Anyway, who called for help may or may not be material. We don't know the story. What we know is that Zimmerman went out looking for Travyon, armed, wanting a confrontation, that he disobeyed police instructions to not do so. If a guy with a gun came up on me and threatened me with it, I'd like to think I'd keep my cool and try to talk him down, but I might panic and hit him or try to grapple for the gun.

We don't know, and may never know, what went down. What is obvious is that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation after being explicitly told not to, so the results of it are obviously in a large portion his fault.

79 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:42:10pm

re: #76 A Little Bit Shady

Being alert and aware is your defence.
The weapon is a sure fire way of shooting yourself in the foot.

What is the probability of successfully using a concealed firearm when accosted?

Works well for plain clothes officers and the FBI --no?

80 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:42:33pm

re: #68 ggt

Yeah, I don't get that.

Can't say as I can speak for most people, but me personally, I consider it a matter of trust. If I don't know the person, don't know how they'll act under stress, how can I trust they won't use that weapon foolishly?

81 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:43:03pm

re: #71 Obdicut

You have no way of knowing the intentions of someone who tries to punch you, either. Do you think that it's justified to shoot someone who's taking a swing at you?

He might intend to beat you to death, after all.

It's justified to draw your weapon. The shooting part is sort of dependent on whether or not they stop.

82 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:43:26pm

re: #75 Obdicut

They believe it so much that they told one witness that she was wrong when she said it was Trayvon calling for help.

Besides, it doesn't actually matter who called for help.

83 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:44:09pm

re: #82 Tourquoise Supremacist

Jinx.

84 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:44:13pm

Here's the thing: If you've got a gun on you and you intend to stop someone from doing something, you let them know you've got the gun from far enough away that they can't get at you.

I've written before about how I stopped an assault on a woman in Seattle, a little over ten years ago. Now I was several stories above the action, leaning out of my kitchen window, yelling incoherently and shaking a lever action rifle like a Sand Person from Star Wars, but it worked. I didn't have to point the weapon, just let the guy know that I'd had enough of watching him beat the shit out of his girlfriend and the situation might jump up a notch if he didn't stop immediately.

What you don't do is abandon your safe position, car, etc. and approach the suspect on foot, especially when he hasn't done anything more suspicious than walk around and look at things while being black and wearing a hoodie. Getting into physical altercation range is what cops are paid to do, cop wannabe's not so much.

85 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:44:27pm

re: #80 Targetpractice

Can't say as I can speak for most people, but me personally, I consider it a matter of trust. If I don't know the person, don't know how they'll act under stress, how can I trust they won't use that weapon foolishly?

I guess I feel how they act is partially determined by how I act. Predators smell fear. I've been around guns and guys with guns my whole life. I see them as something to dust.

86 austin_blue  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:45:03pm

re: #7 Kragar

So "standing your ground" means you can shoot a kid in the streets?

Nope. It means you can *follow him down the street while talking to 911* and when he turns around with a bag of skittles and an ice tea to tell you fuck off, *then* you can shoot him down in the street.

Now it's "walking while black".

Despicable. Little dick, big gun.

87 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:45:41pm

re: #52 William Barnett-Lewis

The idea is this - in a place where CCW is allowed anyone might be armed as opposed to a place where CCW is not allowed and everyone is a defenseless sheep victim. Therefore the criminal will supposedly think that it's too dangerous to attack anyone. Instead, in the real world, they simply have the usual "that only happens to someone else" mentality and presume some other pigeon is carrying the weapons and will run away, quickly, when proven else wise.

Or the criminal can be more surreptitious, quicker and have buddies. Or have his own gun, already drawn.

88 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:46:00pm

re: #85 ggt

I guess I feel how they act is partially determined by how I act. Predators smell fear. I've been around guns and guys with guns my whole life. I see them as something to dust.

Oh, I've no inherent fear of guns. If I had more money, I might even buy one to take down to the shooting range.

No, I have an inherent fear of humans. Humans are dumb, panicky animals.

89 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:46:26pm

re: #53 ggt

Both can be pretty scary and unstable people. I don't want to be raped either.

I have dogs to sound the alarm.

That actually sounds more responsible and safer than having a gun.

90 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:49:50pm

Stand Your Ground means you don't have to submit to bullying -no?

Standing your Ground with a firearm means you don't have to submit to a criminal--no?

The law doesn't sound as though it is clear-cut as written. The prodedures need to be understood.

This may be a reaction to some of the gun propaganda out of England from a while back. Homeowners were told to do what the criminal said and just hope they leave your home with the stolen articles they wanted and leave you alone. I haven't followed it for a while, but I do think that has changed.

There was a much covered case in which a man shot an intruder while in his home after being robbed repeatedly. The homeowner was prosecuted. What the propaganda didn't say is that he shot the intruder in the back.

This is also what got Campean and Ramos in trouble, IMHO, they shot the guy in the back (well butt).

Never a cool thing. I wouldn't want to go in front of a jury and claim self-defense if I shot someone in the back. I doubt it has ever gone in the shooters favor.

91 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:50:11pm

Yes. America's future is looking brighter day by day. This law needs a lot of work. Right now it's law that allows uncivilized men to behave in an even more uncivilized manner. Then again it's a reflection of a culture that creates men like Sgt. Bales and is easily led to wars on fabricated information. It is as Gore Vidal once described, a death cult.

92 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:51:13pm

BBL.

93 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:51:44pm

re: #29 BongCrodny

Police records show Zimmerman had called 911 a total of 46 times between Jan. 1 and the day he shot Martin.

That's an average of once a day. I could be wrong, but it sounds like Zimmerman was itchin' for a little action.

I would love to hear the playbacks of those 46 911 calls. I'll bet you could learn a lot about the guy from those.

Really? Is the guy mental? Or on drugs? Oh, we'll never know.

94 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:51:44pm

re: #78 Obdicut

What is obvious is that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation after being explicitly told not to, so the results of it are obviously in a large portion his fault.

I'm not sure if that's been determined. I've seen conflicting reports, one saying that it wasn't clear if Zimmerman continued to follow him. Trayvon may have confronted him to see why Zimmerman watching him and previously following him.
There's a lot in doubt and enough conflicting statements that it makes it easy for people to pick and choose their desired narrative. As usual I suspect the truth is going to end up somewhere in between.

95 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:51:45pm

re: #90 ggt

Stand Your Ground means you don't have to submit to bullying -no?

No, it doesn't. It doesn't mean you can just shoot someone who's bullying you.

Or it shouldn't.

If I had shot everyone who assaulted me back when I was a doorman/bouncer, I'd have killed scores of guys. It's not a workable solution.

96 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:51:49pm

re: #79 ggt

Works well for plain clothes officers and the FBI --no?

You mean aside from them knowingly entering dangerous areas with guns drawn?

97 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:52:36pm

re: #90 ggt

Stand Your Ground means you don't have to submit to bullying -no?

Standing your Ground with a firearm means you don't have to submit to a criminal--no?

The law doesn't sound as though it is clear-cut as written. The prodedures need to be understood.

This may be a reaction to some of the gun propaganda out of England from a while back. Homeowners were told to do what the criminal said and just hope they leave your home with the stolen articles they wanted and leave you alone. I haven't followed it for a while, but I do think that has changed.

There was a much covered case in which a man shot an intruder while in his home after being robbed repeatedly. The homeowner was prosecuted. What the propaganda didn't say is that he shot the intruder in the back.

This is also what got Campean and Ramos in trouble, IMHO, they shot the guy in the back (well butt).

Never a cool thing. I wouldn't want to go in front of a jury and claim self-defense if I shot someone in the back. I doubt it has ever gone in the shooters favor.

The bolded was pretty much what Hammer was hinting at, the perception amongst a lot of folks that things here, if given the chance, would get as "bad" as they have in Britain.

98 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:52:46pm

re: #76 A Little Bit Shady

Being alert and aware is your defence.
The weapon is a sure fire way of shooting yourself in the foot.

What is the probability of successfully using a concealed firearm when accosted?

I hear it works well for the gang-bangers too.

99 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:52:58pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

I don't find the truth normally lies somewhere inbetween, actually. That's something people say, but I've never seen why.

It is absolutely true that Zimmerman was told not to follow Trayvon, and he did.

100 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:53:03pm

re: #84 goddamnedfrank

Here's the thing: If you've got a gun on you and you intend to stop someone from doing something, you let them know you've got the gun from far enough away that they can't get at you.

I've written before about how I stopped an assault on a woman in Seattle, a little over ten years ago. Now I was several stories above the action, leaning out of my kitchen window, yelling incoherently and shaking a lever action rifle like a Sand Person from Star Wars, but it worked. I didn't have to point the weapon, just let the guy know that I'd had enough of watching him beat the shit out of his girlfriend and the situation might jump up a notch if he didn't stop immediately.

What you don't do is abandon your safe position, car, etc. and approach the suspect on foot, especially when he hasn't done anything more suspicious than walk around and look at things while being black and wearing a hoodie. Getting into physical altercation range is what cops are paid to do, cop wannabe's not so much.

Ah ha, an unconcealed weapon.

101 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:53:11pm

re: #84 goddamnedfrank

Also, I had previously called 911 and watched the cops show up and arrest the guy. The cops on scene were very nice but the investigators didn't contact me for a long time. Several months later I got a call from a prosecutor picking up the pieces who asked if I would testify, I agreed. The morning I was due to go to court the prosecutor called again and said they'd secured a plea bargain based in part on my agreeing to show up.

102 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:53:15pm

re: #93 Oh geeze.

Really? Is the guy mental? Or on drugs? Oh, we'll never know.

No, he was a volunteer in a neighborhood watch program.

103 allegro  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:53:35pm

re: #69 Meh.

On one hand, I agree with you. Most intruders will flee from confrontation.

On the other, I agree with Hal. You have no way of knowing what their intentions are.

You also don't know if they are armed. I would hesitate to holler out "hey, here I am! I will shoot you if you don't identify yourself!" to someone in my home who was not invited and did not identify him/herself upon entry.

104 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:54:47pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

No, he was a volunteer in a neighborhood watch program.

We actually won't know if he was on drugs or drunk, because they didn't do an alcohol or tox screen on him.

105 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:54:59pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

No, he was a volunteer in a neighborhood watch program.

He was the self-appointed "captain" of the neighborhood watch.

106 austin_blue  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:55:01pm

re: #90 ggt

Stand Your Ground means you don't have to submit to bullying -no?

Standing your Ground with a firearm means you don't have to submit to a criminal--no?

The law doesn't sound as though it is clear-cut as written. The prodedures need to be understood.

This may be a reaction to some of the gun propaganda out of England from a while back. Homeowners were told to do what the criminal said and just hope they leave your home with the stolen articles they wanted and leave you alone. I haven't followed it for a while, but I do think that has changed.

There was a much covered case in which a man shot an intruder while in his home after being robbed repeatedly. The homeowner was prosecuted. What the propaganda didn't say is that he shot the intruder in the back.

This is also what got Campean and Ramos in trouble, IMHO, they shot the guy in the back (well butt).

Never a cool thing. I wouldn't want to go in front of a jury and claim self-defense if I shot someone in the back. I doubt it has ever gone in the shooters favor.

This is why you get a 12-gauge pump and load it with goose shot (I prefer #2 steel). If you don't hear them scampering off when you chamber a round, shoot them through the fucking wall. Pistols are silly little things. Fun as hell, though.

107 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:55:30pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

No, he was a volunteer in a neighborhood watch program.

Zimmerman wasn't given an alcohol or drug test. The victim, being black, was likely given a post mortem drug test which is SOP for black men in the USA.

108 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:55:42pm

re: #104 Obdicut

We actually won't know if he was on drugs or drunk, because they didn't do an alcohol or tox screen on him.

True but I was responding to why he had placed so many calls to the police.

109 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:55:49pm

re: #99 Obdicut

Well, the averages theory of truth, a new one in philosophy. If someone tells you 2+2=4 and someone else 2+2=6, that means 2+2=5.

110 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:55:54pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

No, he was a volunteer in a neighborhood watch program.

Calling 911 that many times? In a gated community?

111 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:56:13pm

re: #106 austin_blue

This is why you get a 12-gauge pump and load it with goose shot (I prefer #2 steel). If you don't hear them scampering off when you chamber a round, shoot them through the fucking wall. Pistols are silly little things. Fun as hell, though.

I'm not strong enough to pump one of those things. They are FREAKIN' hard!

112 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:56:58pm

re: #106 austin_blue

This is why you get a 12-gauge pump and load it with goose shot (I prefer #2 steel). If you don't hear them scampering off when you chamber a round, shoot them through the fucking wall. Pistols are silly little things. Fun as hell, though.

I will say that that sound is pretty ominous. It would get even the drunkest man's attention.

113 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:57:25pm

re: #108 Killgore Trout

True but I was responding to why he had placed so many calls to the police.

That doesn't mean that's why he called 911. He might have called 911 a lot because he was a paranoid vigilante type. That might also be why he joined neighborhood watch.

114 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:57:26pm

re: #110 Oh geeze.

Calling 911 that many times? In a gated community?

It does seem like a lot but it does explain why he was calling police so much. It isn't like he was sitting in his living room making all those calls like a nutcase.

115 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:57:34pm

re: #98 ggt

I hear it works well for the gang-bangers too.

Again, they put themselves into situations where they know the others have guns so they draw their own.

The two situations you've described are completely different than situations the vast majority of people find themselves in.

116 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:57:47pm

re: #113 Obdicut

That doesn't mean that's why he called 911. He might have called 911 a lot because he was a paranoid vigilante type. That might also be why he joined neighborhood watch.

That could be.

117 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:57:53pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

No, he was a volunteer in a neighborhood watch program.

Also, his name was Zimmerman. See, I can cite irrelevant facts too.

118 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:58:00pm

re: #106 austin_blue

This is why you get a 12-gauge pump and load it with goose shot (I prefer #2 steel). If you don't hear them scampering off when you chamber a round, shoot them through the fucking wall. Pistols are silly little things. Fun as hell, though.

AND, because of the "spray radius" of the shot is a more effective weapon in self-defense.

I hear there are pistols that carry shot. :)

119 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:58:51pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

It isn't like he was sitting in his living room making all those calls like a nutcase.

Or, maybe he was.

120 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:58:58pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

It does seem like a lot but it does explain why he was calling police so much. It isn't like he was sitting in his living room making all those calls like a nutcase.

Nah, then he might have at least seemed like a regular nut. No, this nut was a vigilante with a Dirty Harry fantasy.

121 austin_blue  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:59:08pm

re: #111 ggt

I'm not strong enough to pump one of those things. They are FREAKIN' hard!

Oh for goodness sake, the draw on my pump is about two pounds of pressure to chamber a shell. And when there is someone in your house and the adrenaline is humming? A child can do it!

122 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:59:11pm

There shouldn't be neighborhood watches with armed and largely untrained civilians. Full stop. If we want neighborhood protection then spend more to get more cops on the beat.

123 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:59:11pm

re: #106 austin_blue

Would a Repeater be decent?

I have hypotonia, so I don't know if a 12-gauge will be possible.

124 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:59:19pm

Speaking of shotguns, is it just me or did Herschel go through something like 30 shells last night without having to reload???

125 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:59:40pm

re: #120 Targetpractice

Nah, then he might have at least seemed like a regular nut. No, this nut was a vigilante with a Dirty Harry fantasy.

Sure seems that way. re: #121 austin_blue

Oh for goodness sake, the draw on my pump is about two pounds of pressure to chamber a shell. And when there is someone in your house and the adrenaline is humming? A child can do it!

I have *ahem* spinal issues.

126 Lidane  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:59:45pm

re: #9 Meh.

That's what I'm seeing. Even if you get out of your car and pursue him after the police have told you NOT TO DO JUST THAT.

So, to recap, he shot a kid in a confrontation that he himself caused and legally did nothing wrong.

But if it had been the other way around, and Martin had shot Zimmerman, the same people downplaying this story would be calling for Martin to be sent to death row.

You know, because of equal treatment under the law and all that.

///

127 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 4:59:52pm
128 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:00:01pm

re: #124 Meh.

Speaking of shotguns, is it just me or did Herschel go through something like 30 shells last night without having to reload???

Magic plot shells. They're self-replenishing.

/

129 erik_t  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:00:13pm

OT: Crazy ol' Rick really does say any dumbass thing that crosses his mind.

"We need a candidate who's going to be a fighter for freedom. Who's going to get up and make that the central theme in this race because it is the central theme in this race," Santorum told a crowd of about 200 voters during a rally here on Monday. "I don't care what the unemployment rate's going to be. Doesn't matter to me. My campaign doesn't hinge on unemployment rates and growth rates. It's something more foundational that's going on."

At least he's honest about what he really cares about.

130 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:00:27pm
131 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:00:37pm

re: #112 ggt

I will say that that sound is pretty ominous. It would get even the drunkest man's attention.

There's gotta be an app already out there with that sound on it. So you can have the pistol and then trigger the app to tell them you mean business.

Shades of the "All In the Family" episode where Archie had the tape of the barking German Shepard to scare other intruders.

132 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:00:47pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

It does seem like a lot but it does explain why he was calling police so much. It isn't like he was sitting in his living room making all those calls like a nutcase.

Zimmerman was previously been arrested for assaulting a cop, while the kid he shot had a squeaky clean record.

133 austin_blue  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:00:54pm

re: #118 ggt

AND, because of the "spray radius" of the shot is a more effective weapon in self-defense.

I hear there are pistols that carry shot. :)

Yup. Rat shot. Very effective in tight quarters. Sucks shooting through walls.

134 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:01:13pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

It does seem like a lot but it does explain why he was calling police so much. It isn't like he was sitting in his living room making all those calls like a nutcase.

Really? You know that much about the community to definitively state that. The neighbour watch at home might call police a dozen times a year. Being in the neighbour watch might explain this, or it might be completely irrelevant.

Seems like he was pissed off that cops didn't show up every time he complains about a black kid walking 'his' streets, so I wouldn't be a bit surprised if many of them were of a similar nature. That's pure speculation of my part however.

135 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:01:35pm

re: #121 austin_blue

Oh for goodness sake, the draw on my pump is about two pounds of pressure to chamber a shell. And when there is someone in your house and the adrenaline is humming? A child can do it!

Actually, I'm not a shooter. The men in the house are. I don't shoot. If a person was stupid enough to get past my dogs, I'd probably sink my nails into their jugular.

I don't have a lot of patience. Probably best I don't shoot.

136 Lidane  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:01:41pm

re: #124 Meh.

Speaking of shotguns, is it just me or did Herschel go through something like 30 shells last night without having to reload???

So did Glenn. And they all had magic aim, too. Headshots everywhere.

137 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:02:22pm

re: #131 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

There's gotta be an app already out there with that sound on it. So you can have the pistol and then trigger the app to tell them you mean business.

Shades of the "All In the Family" episode where Archie had the tape of the barking German Shepard to scare other intruders.

OMG What a great idea!

138 austin_blue  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:02:45pm

re: #123 ProGunLiberal

Would a Repeater be decent?

I have hypotonia, so I don't know if a 12-gauge will be possible.

The problem with any rifled projectile is that it has the tendency to go through the house and kill the neighbors. Very bad form.

139 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:02:47pm

re: #122 Gus

There shouldn't be neighborhood watches with armed and largely untrained civilians. Full stop. If we want neighborhood protection then spend more to get more cops on the beat.

In gated communities.

140 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:03:05pm

re: #133 austin_blue

Yup. Rat shot. Very effective in tight quarters. Sucks shooting through walls.

A little redecorating is never a bad thing. New paint, carpet . .

141 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:03:08pm

re: #135 ggt

Actually, I'm not a shooter. The men in the house are. I don't shoot. If a person was stupid enough to get past my dogs, I'd probably sink my nails into their jugular.

I don't have a lot of patience. Probably best I don't shoot.

Heh, I could imagine that sign out front:

"Warning: Beware of Attack Woman."

/

142 Lidane  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:03:08pm

re: #132 goddamnedfrank

Zimmerman was previously been arrested for assaulting a cop, while the kid he shot had a squeaky clean record.

Squeaky clean record. A's and B's in school. All around a good kid from what's been written about him. But of course, he was somehow a threat to a guy following him in a car as he walked home from the store.

143 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:03:28pm

re: #138 austin_blue

The problem with any rifled projectile is that it has the tendency to go through the house and kill the neighbors. Very bad form.

frangibles!

144 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:03:50pm

re: #139 Oh geeze.

In gated communities.

One would think a gated community could afford a professional security force.

145 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:04:15pm

I come from a culture where just about every household has a rifle, mine included, but those weapons aren't loaded.

While house break-ins are relatively common they occur 99% of the time when nobody is home.

Gun deaths are almost unheard of.

146 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:04:22pm

re: #144 Gus

One would think a gated community could afford a professional security force.

Yeah, gated community and "rent-a-cop" tend to go hand in hand.

147 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:05:32pm

re: #142 Lidane

Squeaky clean record. A's and B's in school. All around a good kid from what's been written about him. But of course, he was somehow a threat to a guy following him in a car as he walked home from the store.

Yeah, there is either more to this story than we've been told, OR it is royally fucked-up and that pisses me off.

I hate when Law Enforcement gives ammunition to the anti-gun types. Our right to self-defense is too important.

I just wish everyone took it seriously.

148 jaunte  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:05:40pm

Letting untrained, armed volunteer enthusiasts enact their police fantasies in a neighborhood watch is just asking for this kind of thing to happen.

149 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:06:49pm

re: #146 Targetpractice

Yeah, gated community and "rent-a-cop" tend to go hand in hand.

They are either retired men who are out-of-shape or Dirty Harry wannbes.

150 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:07:10pm

re: #146 Targetpractice

Yeah, gated community and "rent-a-cop" tend to go hand in hand.

Well. They shouldn't.

151 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:07:38pm

re: #129 erik_t

OT: Crazy ol' Rick really does say any dumbass thing that crosses his mind.

At least he's honest about what he really cares about.

Keeping women and homos values in their place?

152 jaunte  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:08:18pm

The Minuteman Vigilante's Arizona Murder Trial

153 erik_t  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:08:26pm

re: #148 jaunte

Letting untrained, armed volunteer enthusiasts enact their police fantasies in a neighborhood watch is just asking for this kind of thing to happen.

Neighborhood Watch. Emphasis on the fucking WATCH.

Not, you know, Neighborhood Posse.

154 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:09:21pm

re: #148 jaunte

Letting untrained, armed volunteer enthusiasts enact their police fantasies in a neighborhood watch is just asking for this kind of thing to happen.

Put the guilty party in jail and make the lawmakers responsible for stupid laws culpable for each irresponsible death.

155 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:09:53pm
156 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:10:51pm

re: #155 Gus

Skittles = WMD

157 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:11:26pm

re: #155 Gus

Authorities could not establish beyond the reasonable doubt that Martin was not a secret ninja, therefore they decided not to press charges. /

158 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:11:31pm

So, are all the right wing blogs supporting Zimmerman? Coming up with excuses and possibilities? Waiting for the "full story" to come out?

159 Lidane  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:12:20pm

re: #148 jaunte

Letting untrained, armed volunteer enthusiasts enact their police fantasies in a neighborhood watch is just asking for this kind of thing to happen.

So is letting untrained, armed volunteer enthusiasts and their vigilante fantasies about policing the border. Bad, bad mojo all around.

I'm not against guns. I'm against stupid and/or crazy people with guns, like Zimmerman.

160 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:12:33pm

re: #156 A Little Bit Shady

Skittles = WMD

Well, the probably are probably made with high fructose corn syrup!

161 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:12:39pm

re: #156 A Little Bit Shady

Skittles = WMD

Maybe they should have waterboarded him instead. Who knows, he would at least have stood a chance.

162 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:12:55pm

re: #157 Tourquoise Supremacist

Authorities could not establish beyond the reasonable doubt that Martin was not a secret ninja, therefore they decided not to press charges. /

That's it. A stealth ninja carrying Skittles. A very dangerous combination.

163 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:13:35pm

re: #71 Obdicut

You have no way of knowing the intentions of someone who tries to punch you, either. Do you think that it's justified to shoot someone who's taking a swing at you?

He might intend to beat you to death, after all.

Good point. Mild to moderate physical violence is no reason to shoot. Trouble is you could die from a head smack on the sidewalk after a simple punch to your nose. California specifically excludes "an attack with fists" from lethal self defense. As a self defense trainer I have to carefully instruct my students. I would often bring in an attorney who specializes in the field. I had to explain that if the attacker died it would likely be a murder or manslaughter investigation. That's the safe assumption.

I want to say I disagree with "stand your ground" in public or common areas. Short of multi angle video and sound, it's just your word vs a dead guy.

I wholeheartedly agree with it in the home. California has the misnamed "shoot the burglar" law. (If it's a burglary no one is home. If I am home it's a robbery) I'll not leave a spouse or guests or children behind and retreat. Hypothetically-Come into my home with a weapon to rob or rape and you better flee when I tell you to at the top of my lungs from hiding. If you don't bail out it's likely a gunfight.

164 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:14:18pm

re: #161 Gus

Maybe they should have waterboarded him instead. Who knows, he would at least have stood a chance.

Find out who supplied him with Smart Skittles.

165 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:14:23pm

re: #159 Lidane

So is letting untrained, armed volunteer enthusiasts and their vigilante fantasies about policing the border. Bad, bad mojo all around.

I'm not against guns. I'm against stupid and/or crazy people with guns, like Zimmerman.

And that's why 'shall issue' ccw seems like a bad idea to me.

166 jaunte  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:14:32pm

re: #158 Oh geeze.

Seems to be a non-story for them.

167 Lidane  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:16:12pm

re: #165 McSpiff

And that's why 'shall issue' ccw seems like a bad idea to me.

That's because it is.

We need specialized classes and training before getting a driver's license. Why not the same for guns? There is no goddamn reason to give someone a CCW permit if they don't have documented time in a gun safety course and on a firing range. If you don't know how to properly load, store, clean, and maintain a gun, and you don't know how to fire it, you've got no business with a license for one.

168 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:16:18pm

re: #163 Daniel Ballard

Good point. Mild to moderate physical violence is no reason to shoot. Trouble is you could die from a head smack on the sidewalk after a simple punch to your nose. California specifically excludes "an attack with fists" from lethal self defense. As a self defense trainer I have to carefully instruct my students. I would often bring in an attorney who specializes in the field. I had to explain that if the attacker died it would likely be a murder or manslaughter investigation. That's the safe assumption.

I want to say I disagree with "stand your ground" in public or common areas. Short of multi angle video and sound, it's just your word vs a dead guy.

I wholeheartedly agree with it in the home. California has the misnamed "shoot the burglar" law. (If it's a burglary no one is home. If I am home it's a robbery) I'll not leave a spouse or guests or children behind and retreat. Hypothetically-Come into my home with a weapon to rob or rape and you better flee when I tell you to at the top of my lungs from hiding. If you don't bail out it's likely a gunfight.

If the average man punched me, he would do great harm. I don't have the civil right to stop him?

169 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:16:36pm

re: #164 A Little Bit Shady

Find out who supplied him with Smart Skittles.

They looked strangely like yellow cake. Maybe we should do a preemptive strike!

WAR!

//

170 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:17:09pm

re: #163 Daniel Ballard

Good point. Mild to moderate physical violence is no reason to shoot. Trouble is you could die from a head smack on the sidewalk after a simple punch to your nose. California specifically excludes "an attack with fists" from lethal self defense. As a self defense trainer I have to carefully instruct my students. I would often bring in an attorney who specializes in the field. I had to explain that if the attacker died it would likely be a murder or manslaughter investigation. That's the safe assumption.

I want to say I disagree with "stand your ground" in public or common areas. Short of multi angle video and sound, it's just your word vs a dead guy.

I wholeheartedly agree with it in the home. California has the misnamed "shoot the burglar" law. (If it's a burglary no one is home. If I am home it's a robbery) I'll not leave a spouse or guests or children behind and retreat. Hypothetically-Come into my home with a weapon to rob or rape and you better flee when I tell you to at the top of my lungs from hiding. If you don't bail out it's likely a gunfight.

How much is surprise worth in combat?

How many criminals will give you a heads-up about a break-in?

171 jaunte  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:17:21pm

Fox News Largely Ignoring Trayvon Martin Shooting

...Right now, the top story at Fox Nation shows a photo of a black man over a blaring headline: 'I’m Here Tryin’ to Get Some Obama Bucks!' Shocking Welfare Video that HBO Tried to Kill.

172 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:17:51pm

re: #167 Lidane

That's because it is.

We need specialized classes and training before getting a driver's license. Why not the same for guns? There is no goddamn reason to give someone a CCW permit if they don't have documented time in a gun safety course and on a firing range. If you don't know how to properly load, store, clean, and maintain a gun, and you don't know how to fire it, you've got no business with a license for one.

That's why I wouldn't ever support firearm possession as a right. Its as much a privilege as driving to me. Canadian.

173 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:18:01pm

re: #167 Lidane

That's because it is.

We need specialized classes and training before getting a driver's license. Why not the same for guns? There is no goddamn reason to give someone a CCW permit if they don't have documented time in a gun safety course and on a firing range. If you don't know how to properly load, store, clean, and maintain a gun, and you don't know how to fire it, you've got no business with a license for one.

That's a no-brainer.

174 BongCrodny  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:18:45pm

Here's a little blurb from the Tempe, Arizona neighborhood watch program.

Neighborhood Watch leaves the responsibility for apprehension of criminals where it belongs--with the police.

Assuming it was a legitimate neighborhood watch program, wouldn't Zimmerman have had to attend meetings where police informed him of this?

If Zimmerman was a watch captain, that would presume he had at least some level of responsibility in the organization. I can't imagine he hadn't been informed by police -- likely multiple times -- not to go out and chase down and confront alleged criminals.

175 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:18:49pm

re: #172 McSpiff

That's why I wouldn't ever support firearm possession as a right. Its as much a privilege as driving to me. Canadian.

So, if you defend your life with a firearm, you would be breaking the law? But if you used a knife, it would be legal?

176 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:19:08pm

re: #168 ggt

If the average man punched me, he would do great harm. I don't have the civil right to stop him?

You've got the right to self-defense. If you have actual reason to believe he means to kill you, you can kill him right back, as Mal would say. Hell, even if he's 'just' trying to cripple you.

But we're not talking about a frail lady defending herself against an aggressive attacker. If the average guy takes a swing at someone, he shouldn't be shot dead for it.

We don't have to have hard and fast rules. We can have juries and judges help interpret circumstances. But we shouldn't condone the idea of lethal force to defend property, nor should we condone the idea of lethal force against someone who isn't posing a direct threat.

177 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:19:10pm

re: #169 Gus

They looked strangely like yellow cake. Maybe we should do a preemptive strike!

WAR!

//

Get the M&M bombers in the air ASAP.

178 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:19:19pm

re: #167 Lidane

That's because it is.

We need specialized classes and training before getting a driver's license. Why not the same for guns? There is no goddamn reason to give someone a CCW permit if they don't have documented time in a gun safety course and on a firing range. If you don't know how to properly load, store, clean, and maintain a gun, and you don't know how to fire it, you've got no business with a license for one.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly agree, bells ringing, lights flashing agree. CCW is hard work and a huge challenge to get right. Even home defense is not an easy thing. Lots too learn and lots to practice until it's as easy as shifting gears in your favorite sports car.

179 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:19:30pm

re: #175 ggt

So, if you defend your life with a firearm, you would be breaking the law? But if you used a knife, it would be legal?

Legally? Depends on the type of blade.

180 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:19:42pm

re: #158 Oh geeze.

So, are all the right wing blogs supporting Zimmerman? Coming up with excuses and possibilities? Waiting for the "full story" to come out?

From all appearances, it's D: Ignoring the story. The only gun-rights news they're worried about is a video of Eric Holder from 1995, which they claim is "proof" that he wants to grab their guns away.

181 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:20:09pm

re: #177 A Little Bit Shady

Get the M&M bombers in the air ASAP.

Get General Doughy Pantload on the phone! We need to get the 101st Fighting Keyboards airborne pronto!

//

182 erik_t  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:20:12pm

re: #174 BongCrodny

Here's a little blurb from the Tempe, Arizona neighborhood watch program.

Assuming it was a legitimate neighborhood watch program, wouldn't Zimmerman have had to attend meetings where police informed him of this?

If Zimmerman was a watch captain, that would presume he had at least some level of responsibility in the organization. I can't imagine he hadn't been informed by police -- likely multiple times -- not to go out and chase down and confront alleged criminals.

Tempe is a bunch of dirty no-good librul ivory tower academics and mooching students. It is not a part of Real Arizona (TM).

183 Lidane  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:20:32pm

re: #172 McSpiff

That's why I wouldn't ever support firearm possession as a right. Its as much a privilege as driving to me. Canadian.

As I said, I have no problem with guns. I grew up in a family of hunters and sportsmen. I have cousins in the FBI and who work as cops. Guns were a rite of passage in my family.

It's just that if you're going to carry one on you all the time as a concealed weapon, you damn well better know how to properly take care of the damn thing and have enough experience with it to know it's not a toy and you're not Dirty Harry.

184 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:21:16pm

re: #171 jaunte

Fox News Largely Ignoring Trayvon Martin Shooting

That vid is the MBF for the Alabama one they are so embarrassed about.

185 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:21:48pm

re: #172 McSpiff

That's why I wouldn't ever support firearm possession as a right. Its as much a privilege as driving to me. Canadian.

You Canucks are all alike.

It used to be pretty common on the prairies to drive around with loaded rifles in the truck. Lots of farmers still have gun racks in their trucks, although the rifles in them have to be unloaded.

186 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:22:31pm

re: #176 Obdicut

You've got the right to self-defense. If you have actual reason to believe he means to kill you, you can kill him right back, as Mal would say. Hell, even if he's 'just' trying to cripple you.

But we're not talking about a frail lady defending herself against an aggressive attacker. If the average guy takes a swing at someone, he shouldn't be shot dead for it.

We don't have to have hard and fast rules. We can have juries and judges help interpret circumstances. But we shouldn't condone the idea of lethal force to defend property, nor should we condone the idea of lethal force against someone who isn't posing a direct threat.

I don't think we do.

This is where the concept of property rights comes into play. We think a lot of that in this country.

187 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:23:14pm

re: #179 McSpiff

Legally? Depends on the type of blade.

So, how I defend my life against imminent danger matters?

Really, I might go to prison for defending my life in your world?

REALLY?

188 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:24:01pm

re: #174 BongCrodny

Here's a little blurb from the Tempe, Arizona neighborhood watch program.

Assuming it was a legitimate neighborhood watch program, wouldn't Zimmerman have had to attend meetings where police informed him of this?

If Zimmerman was a watch captain, that would presume he had at least some level of responsibility in the organization. I can't imagine he hadn't been informed by police -- likely multiple times -- not to go out and chase down and confront alleged criminals.

AND if he was in neighborhood watch and called 911 so many freaking times, they knew something was amiss.

I've looked up, found and called the non 911 number in my neighborhood. 911 designates immediate trouble. I want to hear his multitude of 911 calls.

911, there's an old dude speeding in his golf cart.

911, my neighbors have some people over. Somethings up.

911, there's a dog tearing into the trash.

911, old car driving through.

911, I've never seen these peeps before.

189 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:24:12pm

re: #175 ggt

So, if you defend your life with a firearm, you would be breaking the law? But if you used a knife, it would be legal?

If you defend yourself you are allowed to used methods equal to or greater than the threat.

How many crimes involving guns but not involving gangs VS gangs do you think there are in Canada?

190 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:24:19pm

re: #185 A Little Bit Shady

You Canucks are all alike.

It used to be pretty common on the prairies to drive around with loaded rifles in the truck. Lots of farmers still have gun racks in their trucks, although the rifles in them have to be unloaded.

Still largely is true in most of Canada. I grew up around guns, rifles and shotguns mainly. But the laws we have concerning the storage of guns here would never clear the 2nd amendment in the US as an example. We're comfortable with them, but we have no problem placing reasonable restrictions.

191 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:24:23pm

re: #186 ggt

I don't think we do.

This is where the concept of property rights comes into play. We think a lot of that in this country.

It's really goddamn detestable to me that some people think it really is okay to shoot someone simply to protect property.

192 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:24:38pm

re: #178 Daniel Ballard

Agreed. Wholeheartedly agree, bells ringing, lights flashing agree. CCW is hard work and a huge challenge to get right. Even home defense is not an easy thing. Lots too learn and lots to practice until it's as easy as shifting gears in your favorite sports car.

That's why even the people I know who are gun nuts, have alarm systems and dogs.

They want to hunt, compete in shooting sports and otherwise have fun with their guns, they don't want to hurt people.

193 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:25:00pm

White People, You Will Never Look Suspicious Like Trayvon Martin
Posted 10 hours 46 min ago by Michael Skolnik

I will never look suspicious to you. Even if I have a black hoodie, a pair of jeans and white sneakers on...in fact, that is what I wore yesterday...I still will never look suspicious. No matter how much the hoodie covers my face or how baggie my jeans are, I will never look out of place to you. I will never watch a taxi cab pass me by to pick someone else up. I will never witness someone clutch their purse tightly against their body as they walk by me. I won't have to worry about a police car following me for two miles, so they can "run my plates." I will never have to pay before I eat. And I certainly will never get "stopped and frisked." I will never look suspicious to you, because of one thing and one thing only. The color of my skin. I am white.

I was born white. It was the card I was dealt. No choice in the matter. Just the card handed out by the dealer. I have lived my whole life privileged. Privileged to be born without a glass ceiling. Privileged to grow up in the richest country in the world. Privileged to never look suspicious. I have no guilt for the color of my skin or the privilege that I have. Remember, it was just the next card that came out of the deck. But, I have choices. I got choices on how I play the hand I was dealt. I got a lot of options. The ball is in my court.

So, today I decided to hit the ball. Making a choice. A choice to stand up for Trayvon Martin. 17 years old. black. innocent. murdered with a bag of skittles and a bottle of ice tea in his hands. "Suspicious." that is what the guy who killed him said he looked like cause he had on a black hoodie, a pair of jeans and white sneakers. But, remember I had on that same outfit yesterday. And yes my Air Force Ones were "brand-new" clean. After all, I was raised in hip-hop...part of our dress code. I digress. Back to Trayvon and the gated community in Sanford, Florida, where he was visiting his father...

194 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:25:03pm

My apologies, apparently there is a front-page story on this incident over at Breitbart.com. The focus of the story?

MEDIA LABELS HISPANIC MAN WHITE IN SHOOTING OF BLACK TEEN

195 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:25:34pm

re: #187 ggt

So, how I defend my life against imminent danger matters?

Really, I might go to prison for defending my life in your world?

REALLY?

There are knives that you cannot legally posses in Canada, yes. Are you really telling me that if you defended yourself with a stolen gun in the US, you wouldn't be prosecuted for that crime separate from the act of self defense?

196 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:25:47pm

re: #170 A Little Bit Shady

How much is surprise worth in combat?

How many criminals will give you a heads-up about a break-in?

Part of the deal is your home needs to be reasonably secure so silent entry is almost impossible. Dog, alarms, good doors and windows. Whatever you can manage. If you get surprised you lose or die. However in your own home you do have a fighting chance. Of course there are no guarantees. Just opportunity met with preparation. Some call that luck. I don't, not in that context. I have a phrase called the survival triangle. 3 angles-Awareness, intelligence, training. If you fail to apply any of those 3 things you likely lose. These apply from pacifists (arguably the bravest of us all) to SWAT commanders.

197 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:25:50pm

re: #184 Oh geeze.

That vid is the MBF for the Alabama one they are so embarrassed about.

It was Mississippi and they were both shot by the same woman and aired on the same show one week apart.

198 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:26:05pm

re: #194 Targetpractice

Zimmerman may or may not be white, but what is it people don't get about "Hispanic is not a racial designation"?

199 erik_t  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:26:12pm

re: #176 Obdicut

You've got the right to self-defense. If you have actual reason to believe he means to kill you, you can kill him right back, as Mal would say. Hell, even if he's 'just' trying to cripple you.

But we're not talking about a frail lady defending herself against an aggressive attacker. If the average guy takes a swing at someone, he shouldn't be shot dead for it.

We don't have to have hard and fast rules. We can have juries and judges help interpret circumstances. But we shouldn't condone the idea of lethal force to defend property, nor should we condone the idea of lethal force against someone who isn't posing a direct threat.

We all agree, presumably, that there's a reasonable level of escalation on the part of the attacked. If they point a gun at you, you can feel quite reasonable in shooting before they do, for example. On the other hand, if they go at you with a novelty hand-buzzer then the escalation to use of a deadly weapon is prooooobably excessive.

There are two questions that stem from this. First, what is the appropriate bound on level of escalation? Can you shoot someone who points a gun at you? Wields a knife? From five feet or fifty? Punches you in the face? Punches you in the arm? I submit that our individual responses will scatter somewhat along this distribution.

The second question is translating 'appropriate' to 'criminal'. In the heat of the moment (which is presumably almost universally true in an attack), what is the appropriate bound on a person's fight-or-flight reflex? You might submit that escalation-degree-A is appropriate when you're sitting on your pondering couch, but 2A is what your brain thinks is sensible when the adrenaline kicks in. What's the scatter on that multiplicative factor? What's the appropriate bound that should be set by the law?

(answer: hell if I know, and hell if I know)

200 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:26:14pm

re: #181 Gus

Get General Doughy Pantload on the phone! We need to get the 101st Fighting Keyboards airborne pronto!

//

The Doobie Gang are stuck on rotate.

201 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:26:59pm

re: #191 Obdicut

It's really goddamn detestable to me that some people think it really is okay to shoot someone simply to protect property.

Well, homes only, IMHO. Cars etc can be replaced, but my home is MY HOME. Even my wedding ring is insured.

HOMES are different. There is probably legal precedence for this.

Ever since Heller, my brain has been focused on other Civil Rights issues, has you know. Little gray cells have other facts and dates in them now.

202 carlaschluge  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:27:37pm

re: #184 Oh geeze.

Fail.

[Link: video.foxnews.com...]

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

203 jamesfirecat  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:27:50pm

Regardless of how you feel on who can own a gun and why, you've got to feel that that there should be more stringent rules for what happens when you USE A GUN right?

204 Kragar  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:28:01pm

re: #198 Obdicut

Zimmerman may or may not be white, but what is it people don't get about "Hispanic is not a racial designation"?

Some people say black is a nationality and want to see the green card for American citizens.

205 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:28:11pm

re: #195 McSpiff

There are knives that you cannot legally posses in Canada, yes. Are you really telling me that if you defended yourself with a stolen gun in the US, you wouldn't be prosecuted for that crime separate from the act of self defense?

Gang-bangers in Chicago aren't.

206 austin_blue  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:28:55pm

re: #199 erik_t

We all agree, presumably, that there's a reasonable level of escalation on the part of the attacked. If they point a gun at you, you can feel quite reasonable in shooting before they do, for example. On the other hand, if they go at you with a novelty hand-buzzer then the escalation to use of a deadly weapon is prooobably excessive.

There are two questions that stem from this. First, what is the appropriate bound on level of escalation? Can you shoot someone who points a gun at you? Wields a knife? From five feet or fifty? Punches you in the face? Punches you in the arm? I submit that our individual responses will scatter somewhat along this distribution.

The second question is translating 'appropriate' to 'criminal'. In the heat of the moment (which is presumably almost universally true in an attack), what is the appropriate bound on a person's fight-or-flight reflex? You might submit that escalation-degree-A is appropriate when you're sitting on your pondering couch, but 2A is what your brain thinks is sensible when the adrenaline kicks in. What's the scatter on that multiplicative factor? What's the appropriate bound that should be set by the law?

(answer: hell if I know, and hell if I know)

But this young black could have thrown tea at me, or, or...pelted me with Skittles!

207 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:29:00pm

re: #194 Targetpractice

My apologies, apparently there is a front-page story on this incident over at Breitbart.com. The focus of the story?

MEDIA LABELS HISPANIC MAN WHITE IN SHOOTING OF BLACK TEEN

Yeah, that's what's really important in this clusterfuck...

208 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:29:01pm

re: #205 ggt

Gang-bangers in Chicago aren't.

Sounds like you need better prosecutors.

209 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:29:14pm

re: #187 ggt

So, how I defend my life against imminent danger matters?

Really, I might go to prison for defending my life in your world?

REALLY?

What imminent danger?

If you kill someone, even in defence, unless there is good evidence you would have died had you not killed the assailant, yes you could go to jail.

210 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:29:20pm

re: #201 ggt

Someone isn't going to try to steal your home, though.

If you mean someone in your home stealing things, no, I don't think you have the right to simply kill them for that.

211 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:30:14pm

re: #203 jamesfirecat

Regardless of how you feel on who can own a gun and why, you've got to feel that that there should be more stringent rules for what happens when you USE A GUN right?

There are. Journalists don't bother to research them.

Serious Gun nuts usually know them by heart.

212 erik_t  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:30:21pm

re: #206 austin_blue

But this young black could have thrown tea at me, or, or...pelted me with Skittles!

Your interpretation of my post is to think I'm defending Zimmerman? Really?

213 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:30:28pm

re: #190 McSpiff

Still largely is true in most of Canada. I grew up around guns, rifles and shotguns mainly. But the laws we have concerning the storage of guns here would never clear the 2nd amendment in the US as an example. We're comfortable with them, but we have no problem placing reasonable restrictions.

Don't forget, I'm a Canuck too.
Your laws are my laws.

214 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:30:56pm

re: #202 carlaschluge

Fail.

[Link: video.foxnews.com...]

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

The website has several stories posted, all from wire services. Fox News automatically posts articles from wire services.

Their television shows, on the other hand, are self-produced. And there's been exactly ONE story so far on Fox News TV.

215 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:31:16pm

re: #198 Obdicut

Zimmerman may or may not be white, but what is it people don't get about "Hispanic is not a racial designation"?

They DON'T.

216 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:31:28pm

Cuteness Break,

Then I have to take Brat Puppy to training class

Have fun everyone.

217 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:32:15pm

re: #213 A Little Bit Shady

Don't forget, I'm a Canuck too.
Your laws are my laws.

Crap, I'm still not use to changing display names. Sorry b_, wasn't trying to be patronizing.

218 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:32:21pm

re: #194 Targetpractice

My apologies, apparently there is a front-page story on this incident over at Breitbart.com. The focus of the story?

MEDIA LABELS HISPANIC MAN WHITE IN SHOOTING OF BLACK TEEN

This isn't about Zimmerman being white. It's about Trayvon being black. On a similar note I can tell you that my mom's side are dyed in the wool Spaniards from Western Spain and they're as pale as any Irishman.

219 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:32:51pm

re: #187 ggt

So, how I defend my life against imminent danger matters?

Really, I might go to prison for defending my life in your world?

REALLY?

Mike Dalton, the man that literally wrote the book on defense with firearms taught me this-If it's apparent you were truly defending yourself it's very unlikely you would go to jail, even with a weapon you are not supposed to have. If you screw up and shoot someone out of anger, nothing about your licenses, gun registration or technical details will save you from lady justice.

220 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:33:57pm

re: #209 A Little Bit Shady

What imminent danger?

If you kill someone, even in defence, unless there is good evidence you would have died had you not killed the assailant, yes you could go to jail.

So any man who wants to can beat the shit out of me, rape me and put me in the hospital and I can't defend myself? He could do it over and over and because he isn't going to kill me, I can't defend myself?

REALLY?

221 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:34:02pm

re: #218 Gus

This isn't about Zimmerman being white. It's about Trayvon being black. On a similar note I can tell you that my mom's side are dyed in the wool Spaniards from Western Spain and they're as pale as any Irishman.

Exactly -- but it's also ridiculous to claim that being Hispanic automatically makes one "non-white." "Hispanic" is a cultural and language classification, not racial.

And Zimmerman sure looks white to me.

222 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:34:44pm

re: #198 Obdicut

Zimmerman may or may not be white, but what is it people don't get about "Hispanic is not a racial designation"?

Their knees jerked too quickly and violently for them to think about it. They had to run the "victimhood" flag up the pole as quick as possible.

223 jaunte  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:35:05pm

Zimmerman is a racial minority like Desi Arnaz was.

224 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:35:09pm

re: #194 Targetpractice

My apologies, apparently there is a front-page story on this incident over at Breitbart.com. The focus of the story?

MEDIA LABELS HISPANIC MAN WHITE IN SHOOTING OF BLACK TEEN

These people are crazy and ignorant. Many Latinos in America would be considered white in the countries their ancestors come from. Most Cuban-Americans would be white in Cuba for example. The point is this law was passed to allow anyone to shot someone that they feel threatened by and lots of people feel threatened by young black men who are breathing. Forget DWB or even WWB, BWB can be problematic.

My younger cousin who just turned 23 was just over. He's sweet, smart and works 10 hours a day. He has never hurt a fly and I know that there are people who are terrified of him. In the wrong situation he's Tryvon Glover. There only black kids in America who are immune to this live in the White House.

225 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:35:13pm

re: #201 ggt

Well, homes only, IMHO. Cars etc can be replaced, but my home is MY HOME. Even my wedding ring is insured.

HOMES are different. There is probably legal precedence for this.

Ever since Heller, my brain has been focused on other Civil Rights issues, has you know. Little gray cells have other facts and dates in them now.

I have trouble understanding the fear Americans live under.

226 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:35:29pm

re: #219 Daniel Ballard

Mike Dalton, the man that literally wrote the book on defense with firearms taught me this-If it's apparent you were truly defending yourself it's very unlikely you would go to jail, even with a weapon you are not supposed to have. If you screw up and shoot someone out of anger, nothing about your licenses, gun registration or technical details will save you from lady justice.

And that's the problem with this case. Nothing was done. Until the people found out and helped with the fight. I read that Trayvon's parents couldn't get his body for 3 days because he was a John Doe.

Nothing was done.

227 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:35:38pm

Wow.

I just caught a tweet from someone that led me to a "Christian" website with unbelievably racist comments that actually make the crap posted at Fox look tame.

228 austin_blue  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:35:45pm

re: #212 erik_t

Your interpretation of my post is to think I'm defending Zimmerman? Really?

Not at all! Just a comment on the level of bizarreness in the entire story. How can he excuse his actions?

229 abolitionist  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:35:54pm

When I was about 40, I was threatened by a six year old --said he was gonna "get his daddy's gun" and shoot me.

I was visiting my parents' vacated house (with permission) to check some appliances, and the kid next door wandered in uninvited, without even knocking. After we established who he was, and who I was, and whose house he was in, and that it was improper, I advised him to go home. He apparently felt threatened. I relayed the incident to the boy's father about a half hour later.

Law's of the sort that would allow a neighborhood watch president to confront and kill an unarmed teenager would probably have allowed that six year old to shoot me dead.

230 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:35:59pm

re: #218 Gus

This isn't about Zimmerman being white. It's about Trayvon being black. On a similar note I can tell you that my mom's side are dyed in the wool Spaniards from Western Spain and they're as pale as any Irishman.

It's not about white privilege, it's about non-black privilege. And yes, like it or not, there is an unspoken hierarchy.

232 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:36:39pm

re: #221 Charles Johnson

I'm technically Hispanic. I'd never claim it on any sort of demographic survey because I'm not culturally Hispanic, but my Sephardic Jewish ancestors are from the Carribean and Central and South America.

US Census definition:

The terms "Hispanic" or "Latino" refer to persons who trace their origin or descent to Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Spanish speaking Central and South America countries, and other Spanish cultures. Origin can be considered as the heritage, nationality group, lineage, or country of the person or the person's parents or ancestors before their arrival in the United States. People who identify their origin as Hispanic or Latino may be of any race."

233 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:36:55pm

re: #225 A Little Bit Shady

I have trouble understanding the fear Americans live under.

HA!

I'm really outta here now.

234 McSpiff  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:37:09pm

re: #220 ggt

So any man who wants to can beat the shit out of me, rape me and put me in the hospital and I can't defend myself? He could do it over and over and because he isn't going to kill me, I can't defend myself?

REALLY?

If can find any example for any western country where someone was prosecuted in that situation, I will happily paypal you $100 and send you a nice christmas card.

235 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:37:39pm

re: #187 ggt

So, how I defend my life against imminent danger matters?

Really, I might go to prison for defending my life in your world?

REALLY?

If this guy was in imminent danger, he could have just stayed in his car and kept driving. If you start the fight and you aren't defending your property, life or someone else, you are responsible.

236 erik_t  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:38:02pm

re: #232 Obdicut

I'm technically Hispanic. I'd never claim it on any sort of demographic survey because I'm not culturally Hispanic, but my Sephardic Jewish ancestors are from the Carribean and Central and South America.

US Census definition:

Can one even be 'technically' Hispanic? I thought it was by definition a self-identification (and reading the Census Bureau's definition, I guess I do still think that).

237 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:39:14pm

Why do none of the stories about this over at Fox allow comments

238 Targetpractice  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:39:55pm

re: #231 Kragar

Rep. Issa Confronted By Protesters At Foreclosure Hearing, Blames Bank Fraud On Homeowners

Issa's just keeping to the GOP script, written by the Wall Street lobbyists, which says that the victims are responsible for getting screwed over.

239 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:39:57pm

re: #205 ggt

Gang-bangers in Chicago aren't.

What?

I suspect they're prosecuted for worse crimes than gun possession.

240 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:40:08pm

Heh. It's complex.

241 Big Joe  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:40:10pm

re: #225 A Little Bit Shady

I have trouble understanding the fear Americans live under.

I don't get it either and I've lived here over 50 years.

242 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:40:10pm

re: #220 ggt

So any man who wants to can beat the shit out of me, rape me and put me in the hospital and I can't defend myself? He could do it over and over and because he isn't going to kill me, I can't defend myself?

REALLY?

No, because if he did all that, that's also close to killing you. Hell, if someone charges you while you have a gun pointed at them, I do think it's okay to shoot them. But not to simply blindside them and execute them.

243 Gus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:40:42pm

re: #230 Tourquoise Supremacist

It's not about white privilege, it's about non-black privilege. And yes, like it or not, there is an unspoken hierarchy.

Right. And how institutionalized racist treatment of young black men led to inaction by the Sanford police department because the victim is a young black make. There is no doubt in my mind that this would have not even been a question had the victim been some young white male. Especially if they saw his photo in a football uniform. There would have been an outcry at 100 decibels.

It's like when young black males are murdered. You barely hear of those murders. It's like all of the missing black women that are never addressed not only by the police but by the media. If a white woman goes missing, especially if she's attractive, the media is all over it.

244 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:40:49pm

re: #236 erik_t

Can one even be 'technically' Hispanic? I thought it was by definition a self-identification (and reading the Census Bureau's definition, I guess I do still think that).

Well, I guess I mean I could technically claim to be Hispanic, but I don't, then.

246 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:41:34pm

re: #243 Gus

The cop who investigated has at least one other ugly incident where no charges were filed in the past, the beating of a black homeless man that was caught on video.

247 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:41:45pm

re: #219 Daniel Ballard

If it's apparent you were truly defending yourself it's very unlikely you would go to jail, even with a weapon you are not supposed to have.

Within reason. If it's done with a non ATF stamped Welrod that you personally kitbashed out of scrap from Home Depot, you're probably doing some serious time no matter how justified the actual shooting is.

248 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:41:50pm

re: #243 Gus

Or if the shooter was young black male, and the victim was non-black.

249 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:41:54pm

-re: #242 Obdicut

No, because if he did all that, that's also close to killing you. Hell, if someone charges you while you have a gun pointed at them, I do think it's okay to shoot them. But not to simply blindside them and execute them.

Pre-emptive minority defensive slaying

WELL OFFICER, HE WAS BLACK ON THE BLACKEST NIGHT OF THE YEAR OF OUR LORD AND HE COULD HAVE KILLED ME WITH HIS SKITTLES SO I MADE THE FIRST MOVE BECAUSE HE COULD HAVE ESCAPED AND KILLED ME LATER


ALSO NRA GUN RIGHTS GOLDLINE

250 Kragar  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:42:17pm

re: #238 Targetpractice

Issa's just keeping to the GOP script, written by the Wall Street lobbyists, which says that the victims are responsible for getting screwed over.

Youtube Video
251 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:43:29pm

re: #217 McSpiff

Crap, I'm still not use to changing display names. Sorry b_, wasn't trying to be patronizing.

No sweat. I assumed that was the case.

252 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:43:55pm

re: #168 ggt

If the average man punched me, he would do great harm. I don't have the civil right to stop him?

Not with a gun in California. But if you have training and skills to break that arm that neared your nose, I'll gleefully point and laugh at the attacker and buy you and your friends a round of drinks. And then testify for you.

Martial arts exist so the small and or innocent can prevail where predators also exist. IMO that's the sole justification for all these weapons and deadly methods.

Point is like guns or not, do what you feel comfortable with. Good doors and windows with an alarm is a great start. And a prerequisite for guns in the house. It's really difficult to hit a well trained person except of course by surprise. So small people often have big surprises in their skills. BTW I am not a big man. 150 LB and well under 6 foot. I was always fighting over my weight class in training. So I got really hard to hit or grab.

Heh.

253 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:44:00pm

re: #246 Obdicut

The cop who investigated has at least one other ugly incident where no charges were filed in the past, the beating of a black homeless man that was caught on video.

If that's true, it sounds to me like this needs the Feds involved.

254 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:44:06pm

America, where the lynchings can take any form!

255 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:44:48pm

re: #237 SpaceJesus

Why do none of the stories about this over at Fox allow comments

Heh. I just checked that myself. You know why -- because they know exactly what will happen if the Fox News audience comments on this story.

256 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:45:31pm

re: #54 A Little Bit Shady

I've always wondered: If having a gun is to protect your home, do you walk around all day with a holster and gun or do you secrete loaded guns all over the house and do you sleep with a loaded gun under your pillow.

wasn't this a plot from the Tv show Sledge Hammer!

257 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:46:20pm

re: #220 ggt

So any man who wants to can beat the shit out of me, rape me and put me in the hospital and I can't defend myself? He could do it over and over and because he isn't going to kill me, I can't defend myself?

REALLY?

Is shooting him your only defence?

Is having a gun a guarantee that can't happen?

In all likelihood you would be charged with manslaughter and given a suspended sentence if found guilty.

258 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:46:32pm

re: #255 Charles Johnson

Heh. I just checked that myself. You know why -- because they know exactly what will happen if the Fox News audience comments on this story.

Welll... at least they're learning something, right?

259 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:48:35pm

re: #257 A Little Bit Shady

Is shooting him your only defence?

Is having a gun a guarantee that can't happen?

In all likelihood you would be charged with manslaughter and given a suspended sentence if found guilty.

In my apartment building, with people all around me, a bullet is probably going to go into the next apartment if I fired it at an intruder, and there are a lot of kids in the adjoining units, same with many of my friends, all of us apartment dwellers


Not saying I wouldn't shoot a dude who busted into my apartment, but it is something to consider

260 Mocking Jay  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:50:13pm

re: #259 windupbird is in the gravity well

In my apartment building, with people all around me, a bullet is probably going to go into the next apartment if I fired it at an intruder, and there are a lot of kids in the adjoining units, same with many of my friends, all of us apartment dwellers

Not saying I wouldn't shoot a dude who busted into my apartment, but it is something to consider

Hollow points won't go through walls, iirc.

261 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:52:48pm

re: #244 Obdicut

Well, I guess I mean I could technically claim to be Hispanic, but I don't, then.

Doesn't Hispanic roughly equate to a Spanish/Portuguese/American Aboriginal combination?

262 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:53:54pm

re: #249 windupbird is in the gravity well

-

Pre-emptive minority defensive slaying

WELL OFFICER, HE WAS BLACK ON THE BLACKEST NIGHT OF THE YEAR OF OUR LORD AND HE COULD HAVE KILLED ME WITH HIS SKITTLES SO I MADE THE FIRST MOVE BECAUSE HE COULD HAVE ESCAPED AND KILLED ME LATER

ALSO NRA GUN RIGHTS GOLDLINE

Damn those Skittles. They should never have been legalized.

263 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:55:07pm

re: #210 Obdicut

Someone isn't going to try to steal your home, though.

If you mean someone in your home stealing things, no, I don't think you have the right to simply kill them for that.

The NRA has a good home defense class. (for all they get wrong this is good stuff they do) Part of that is you back off into a safe room or your bedroom where you should have a locking door, a phone, ID and a spare set of keys. (ladies take your purse to the bedroom when you sleep) If the robbers are staying out of your room you just stay on the phone with the cops. Let them take the things they want from the rest of the house.

If they try to force their way in you know you are in mortal danger, it's no longer just stuff. If the door swing open, bang. You do not attempt to advance or sweep your own home. The spare keys are to go out the window to the cops so they can do that without busting your front door. Don't run at the cops! Don't exit your home gun in hand! And so on.

264 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:55:49pm

re: #252 Daniel Ballard

Not with a gun in California. But if you have training and skills to break that arm that neared your nose, I'll gleefully point and laugh at the attacker and buy you and your friends a round of drinks. And then testify for you.

Martial arts exist so the small and or innocent can prevail where predators also exist. IMO that's the sole justification for all these weapons and deadly methods.

Point is like guns or not, do what you feel comfortable with. Good doors and windows with an alarm is a great start. And a prerequisite for guns in the house. It's really difficult to hit a well trained person except of course by surprise. So small people often have big surprises in their skills. BTW I am not a big man. 150 LB and well under 6 foot. I was always fighting over my weight class in training. So I got really hard to hit or grab.

Heh.

I'm trained in the Sumo martial arts. Someone breaks into my house and at 222lbs, I just sit on him.

265 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 5:56:06pm

re: #255 Charles Johnson

Heh. I just checked that myself. You know why -- because they know exactly what will happen if the Fox News audience comments on this story.

And that you will report it.

266 kirkspencer  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 9:25:33pm

re: #260 Meh.

Hollow points won't go through walls, iirc.

depends on caliber, depends on wall material, depends on range. All in all, figure it will go through the wall you thought would stop it, and won't go through the one you intended.

In other words look at the frigging target and don't shoot blind.

267 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 9:26:45pm

re: #255 Charles Johnson

Yup. That's why I didn't include a question mark with my comment. Blatantly obvious preemptive damage control.

268 funky chicken  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 9:34:55pm

re: #9 Meh.

That's what I'm seeing. Even if you get out of your car and pursue him after the police have told you NOT TO DO JUST THAT.

So, to recap, he shot a kid in a confrontation that he himself caused and legally did nothing wrong.

The feds have announced they are taking over the investigation, and I'm pretty certain they will be able to find that he did something wrong, even in the legal sense. He obviously did something wrong in the moral sense.

I would hope very few people will try to defend Zimmerman's actions.

269 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 9:37:15pm

re: #225 A Little Bit Shady

I have trouble understanding the fear Americans live under.

Moi aussi. (Canadian)

270 funky chicken  Mon, Mar 19, 2012 9:38:26pm

The feds step in:

[Link: usnews.msnbc.msn.com...]

271 Mar  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 3:20:41pm

This story is so sad! Poor kid.


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The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
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