Final Poll on Wisconsin Recall: A Very Close Race

Walker leads by only 3 points

PoliticsJune 2012 • Views: 30,535

The latest poll from PPP suggests that the Wisconsin recall is going to be a photo finish: Walker Leads by 3 Points.

PPP’s final poll on the Wisconsin recall finds Scott Walker ahead, but also a race that’s tightening. Walker leads Tom Barrett 50-47. That’s down from 50-45 on a PPP poll conducted three weeks ago and it’s also down from a 52-45 lead that Walker posted in a Marquette Law poll released last week.

Barrett is actually winning independent voters by a 48-46 margin. The reason he continues to trail overall is that Republicans are more excited about voting in Tuesday’s election than Democrats are. Our projected electorate voted for Barack Obama by only 7 points, even though he took the state by 14 in 2008. If the folks who turn out on Tuesday actually matched the 2008 electorate, Barrett would be ahead of Walker by a 50-49 margin. It’s cliche but this is a race that really is going to completely come down to turnout.

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96 comments

Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:05:21am

In some countries the final count comes down to turnout.

In others it comes down to who counts the ballots.

I'm grateful to live in the first type of country.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:05:58am

I wonder if lil Jimmy O'Keefe will be on hand to document the election.

darthstar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:06:41am

Here's how to interpret tomorrow's results in Wisconsin:

1. Walker wins - it's an omen for Obama in 2012 and Mitt Romney's chances of winning swing states like California go up twenty-fold.

2. Barrett wins - it's not indicative of what will happen in November and can only be seen as a miscarriage of justice FREEZIMMERMAN!

/half

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:06:47am

re: #1 Mostly sane, most of the time.

In some countries the final count comes down to turnout.

In others it comes down to who counts the ballots.

I'm grateful to live in the first type of country.

Grats, which country is it?
//

Simply Sarah Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:07:48am

Basically seems to match what we've been hearing for a while now: Things are so tight that whichever side has a better GOTV effort will almost certainly win. That being said, I can also see this ending with a rather large gap between the two of them, say 10+ points, if one side really does a good job. Right now, that seems to be pointing to Walker, but we'll (probably) know for sure sometime tomorrow night.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:08:11am

It's gonna be close. Edge seems to be Walker right now unfortunately.

erik_t Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:12:15am

re: #5 Simply Sarah

Basically seems to match what we've been hearing for a while now: Things are so tight that whichever side has a better GOTV effort will almost certainly win. That being said, I can also see this ending with a rather large gap between the two of them, say 10+ points, if one side really does a good job. Right now, that seems to be pointing to Walker, but we'll (probably) know for sure sometime tomorrow night.

The other wrinkle, of course, is that we're looking at polls that need to predict the likelihood that various demographic groups will vote. Recalls are rare and weird; the sample size on which these models can draw is considerably smaller than regular elections, so we might expect their likely voter model to suffer considerably.

lawhawk Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:13:55am

If Walker pulls this out, the GOP will pour even more money into WI in the hopes of helping Mitt take WI in November against the President. If Barrett wins (still a longshot given his dollar disadvantage), it will give Democrats a shot in the arm and help Democrats elsewhere that they've got a shot at rolling back the Tea Party madness.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:14:30am

Former Walker aide due for final pre-trial hearing

Timothy D. Russell has pleaded not guilty to three embezzlement charges. He's accused of stealing more than $21,000 from a nonprofit organization that Walker asked him to lead.

The hearing is Monday morning. Russell's jury trial begins two weeks later.

Russell is one of six Walker aides and associates charged with crimes. The charges stem from a secret John Doe investigation. Walker has repeatedly said he is not a target of the investigation, and he hasn't been charged with wrongdoing.

One aide gets nabbed, okay, that could happen. Two, well thats just bad luck.

But 6 aides getting busted? You got a real problem going on there.

Simply Sarah Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:14:55am

re: #7 erik_t

The other wrinkle, of course, is that we're looking at polls that need to predict the likelihood that various demographic groups will vote. Recalls are rare and weird; the sample size on which these models can draw is considerably smaller than regular elections, so we might expect their likely voter model to suffer considerably.

Correct. I'd think recall elections must be somewhat similar to a normal special election, but the somewhat different factors of a recall may cause even further deviation from the norm.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:16:06am

In Texas, 300,000 Eligible Voters Targeted In Purge

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:16:44am

re: #9 Kragar

Former Walker aide due for final pre-trial hearing

One aide gets nabbed, okay, that could happen. Two, well thats just bad luck.

But 6 aides getting busted? You got a real problem going on there.

But the unions.

Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:17:38am

re: #11 Kragar

In Texas, 300,000 Eligible Voters Targeted In Purge

That's not a bug, that's a feature!
///

Mattand Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:18:06am

re: #1 Mostly sane, most of the time.

In some countries the final count comes down to turnout.

In others it comes down to who counts the ballots.

I'm grateful to live in the first type of country.

You may want to read this before making that statement.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:18:22am

re: #12 HappyWarrior

But the unions.

Its not fair unions getting all their members to have a vote, while the poor billionaires only get one vote each.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:18:48am

re: #15 Kragar

Its not fair unions getting all their members to have a vote, while the poor billionaires only get one vote each.

"Lucky duckies."

allegro Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:19:52am

re: #11 Kragar

In Texas, 300,000 Eligible Voters Targeted In Purge

The almost 1.5 million voters who are suspended could be purged if they fail to vote in two consecutive general elections.

If they are suspended, how can they vote in two consecutive general elections?

Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:21:48am

re: #17 allegro

If they are suspended, how can they vote in two consecutive general elections?

Do not question how double secret probation works.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:21:57am

I think what's happened in Texas and other states is why I am suspicious of efforts to combat voting fraud. I understand the desire to stop it from happening naturally but it seems that often than not democratic leaning groups are targeted by these efforts.

erik_t Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:22:04am

re: #9 Kragar

Former Walker aide due for final pre-trial hearing

One aide gets nabbed, okay, that could happen. Two, well thats just bad luck.

But 6 aides getting busted? You got a real problem going on there.

The most charitable reading (assuming honest prosecutors) is that Walker is really, really bad at deciding who is trustworthy. Which is sort of an important part of being a leader, and is itself arguably disqualifying.

That's his best case.

Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:22:57am

re: #20 erik_t

The most charitable reading (assuming honest prosecutors) is that Walker is really, really bad at deciding who is trustworthy. Which is sort of an important part of being a leader, and is itself arguably disqualifying.

That's his best case.

Ah. The conundrum of deciding whether it is better to be thought of as incompetent, or criminal.

erik_t Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:23:02am

re: #19 HappyWarrior

I think what's happened in Texas and other states is why I am suspicious of efforts to combat voting fraud. I understand the desire to stop it from happening naturally but it seems that often than not democratic leaning groups are targeted by these efforts.

Just more evidence that a True American votes Republican!

blueraven Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:26:13am

re: #19 HappyWarrior

I think what's happened in Texas and other states is why I am suspicious of efforts to combat voting fraud. I understand the desire to stop it from happening naturally but it seems that often than not democratic leaning groups are targeted by these efforts.

There is NO widespread voter fraud.
Republicans use this as an excuse to disenfranchise minorities, young people and others who primarily vote democratic.

Mich-again Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:26:24am

WI voters know this may be the last time they get to vote for Walker. He might be a convicted felon soon.

He is swirling around the toilet bowl now while the John Doe investigation continues.

Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:28:14am

Good morning fellow lizards.

AK-47% Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:29:31am

re: #23 blueraven

There is NO widespread voter fraud.
Republicans use this as an excuse to disenfranchise minorities, young people and others who primarily vote democratic.

We could end this discussion overnight by issuing a national ID card, which would serve as voter ID and proof of legal residence.

But we won't, so loet's just continue bickering over "voter fraud" on one side and "disenfranchisement" on the other.

Like a married couple in which the husband won't quit drinking, the wife will not stop overeating and they continue to argue about each other being drunk and fat...

Achilles Tang Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:31:06am

I recognize that I have become biased against Walker through news and commentary; but every time I see his face he strikes me as sleezy/dishonest on appearance alone.

Something to do with a lack of expression in the eyes and mouth, or a faked expression. Blank.

Does anyone else think the same, other biases aside?

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:31:26am

re: #23 blueraven

There is NO widespread voter fraud.
Republicans use this as an excuse to disenfranchise minorities, young people and others who primarily vote democratic.

I know, that's why I'm suspicious of it.

Mich-again Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:35:42am

The Republicans pine for the good old days when only white male landowners could vote. And the same legislation that was introduced in WI and TX is now being introduced practically verbatim in MI. Its probably ALEC writing all the Bills and turning them over to the GOP legislators for the rubber stamp.

The GOP has outsourced writing legislation and they always vote as a bloc. So why do we need the actual legislators anymore? They might as well just be virtual legislators. No salary, no pension, no staff, no office..

dragonath Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:36:33am

US Justice Dept. to monitor Wis. recall elections

Good.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:38:57am

It's funny that you do see it slip out from right wing pundits e.g. Coulter and Goldberg that in their eyes the country would be better off if certain people didn't have suffrage rights. I think the GOP knows they're weaker with a large electorate and that most of the growing demographics don't favor them.

Daniel Ballard Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:39:23am

re: #23 blueraven

I think HAVA is a needed reform. I do not defend this kind of widespread crap obviously aimed at affecting the election. I do think we need to narrow the error margin in elections.

That having been said-
Okay, not widespread... So how much fraud is acceptable to you in a race that comes down to less than 1% of the vote? Nothing matters in a wide margin win. But what of the close ones? Does the "not widespread" fraud matter then? Like say Florida Presidential elections with hanging chads and all?

Interesting Times Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:39:29am

re: #27 Achilles Tang

I recognize that I have become biased against Walker through news and commentary; but every time I see his face he strikes me as sleezy/dishonest on appearance alone.

Something to do with a lack of expression in the eyes and mouth, or a faked expression. Blank.

Does anyone else think the same, other biases aside?

Oh hell yes! He creeps me right the fuck out o_O

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:43:31am

Heritage Foundation ‘Expert’ Cannot Cite Any Examples Of Actual Voter Fraud

dragonath Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:43:56am

re: #29 Mich-again

They're empty suits, really.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:45:08am

Romney Adviser: Women’s Health Issues Are ‘Shiny Objects’ That ‘Distract’ Voters

Varek Raith Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:45:29am

re: #32 Daniel Ballard

I think HAVA is a needed reform. I do not defend this kind of widespread crap obviously aimed at affecting the election. I do think we need to narrow the error margin in elections.

That having been said-
Okay, not widespread... So how much fraud is acceptable to you in a race that comes down to less than 1% of the vote? Nothing matters in a wide margin win. But what of the close ones? Does the "not widespread" fraud matter then? Like say Florida Presidential elections with hanging chads and all?

You're 35 times more likely to be struck by lightning than to commit voter fraud. Or 3500 times more likely to report a UFO.
Yeah...

Mattand Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:45:30am

re: #27 Achilles Tang

re: #33 Interesting Times

I try to avoid making that judgement. A friend of mine refused to vote for Clinton because she thought he looked sleazy, and I've got huge swaths of relatives who probably didn't vote for Obama because of his "looks".*

That said, that photo of Walker is the first time I've seen a live human replicate the Uncanny Valley.

*AKA, he's black.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:45:51am

re: #34 Kragar

Heritage Foundation ‘Expert’ Cannot Cite Any Examples Of Actual Voter Fraud

I don't know why James O'Keefe gets any BoD. He's a professional bullshit artist. From the fake pimping to bugging Landrieu's office to the "illegal immigrant" voters who were in fact US citizens.

Varek Raith Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:46:42am

And the few examples of fraud would not be stopped by voter ID laws.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:48:06am

re: #36 Kragar

Romney Adviser: Women’s Health Issues Are ‘Shiny Objects’ That ‘Distract’ Voters

Wonder what his wife thinks of that. Typical of the Romney campaign's disconnect from everyday Americans though.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:48:26am

re: #39 HappyWarrior

I don't know why James O'Keefe gets any BoD. He's a professional bullshit artist. From the fake pimping to bugging Landrieu's office to the "illegal immigrant" voters who were in fact US citizens.

Don't forget stealing a registered voter's ballot because they didn't realize the dead guy's name they were using had a son with the same name.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:49:16am

re: #42 Kragar

Don't forget stealing a registered voter's ballot because they didn't realize the dead guy's name they were using had a son with the same name.

As I said man, professional bullshit artist. People up in arms about ACORN should refocus their venom on that obnoxious prick.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:49:52am

GOP Congressman: Women Who Undergo Abortions Should Face Criminal Charges

Rep. Cliff Stearns (R-FL) unwilling admitted to MSNBC’s Chris Matthews on Friday afternoon that he believed women who receive abortions should face criminal charges. “I think the punishment should certainly be very serious,” he said. “It should be more than a civil case. It should be something very serious”:

MATTHEWS: So it should be a criminal matter for the woman as well as the doctor?

STEARNS: I think so. You are killing an embryo and in some cases you are killing an embryo that is four or five months into gestation.

Varek Raith Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:52:50am

re: #44 Kragar

GOP Congressman: Women Who Undergo Abortions Should Face Criminal Charges

Dear Cliff,
Stop murdering my brain cells with your bullshit.
Thanks.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:52:57am

re: #44 Kragar

GOP Congressman: Women Who Undergo Abortions Should Face Criminal Charges

Jesus Christ. And these bastards have the nerve to claim they're for small government and individual liberties.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:54:20am

re: #46 HappyWarrior

Jesus Christ. And these bastards have the nerve to claim they're for small government and individual liberties.

Smaller Government meaning no business regulations and the liberty to enforce their beliefs on everyone else.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:55:49am

re: #47 Kragar

Smaller Government meaning no business regulations and the liberty to enforce their beliefs on everyone else.

Of course. Wish the rest of the electorate got that.

Kronocide Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:56:11am

This is wrong on so many levels.... but I can't stop laughing.

allegro Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:56:15am

re: #44 Kragar

GOP Congressman: Women Who Undergo Abortions Should Face Criminal Charges

Their contempt for women oozes from their pores. They can't even get the facts right (at 4-5 months, it is a fetus not an embryo and women aren't aborting viable fetuses at this stage) yet they get national TV exposure to spout their crap over and over again.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:57:29am

I absolutely destroyed a Ron Paul libertarian over who disagreed with gay marriage using libertarian ideals about property rights the other day. Actually got him to admit that he only had religious objections to it and that all his political and economic arguments were bullshit. Twas glorious.

Daniel Ballard Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:57:35am

re: #37 Varek Raith

You're 35 times more likely to be struck by lightning than to commit voter fraud. Or 3500 times more likely to report a UFO.
Yeah...

Al Gore & GWB were struck by lightning? Who knew...
//

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:58:09am

re: #49 Kronocide

This is wrong on so many levels... but I can't stop laughing.

DAMN YOU! You're going to kill me.

Interesting Times Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:58:48am

re: #38 mattand

re: #33 Interesting Times

I try to avoid making that judgement. A friend of mine refused to vote for Clinton because she thought he looked sleazy, and I've got huge swaths of relatives who probably didn't vote for Obama because of his "looks".*

That said, that photo of Walker is the first time I've seen a live human replicate the Uncanny Valley.

*AKA, he's black.

I certainly understand that, though what I'm trying to convey is something beyond mere physical characteristics - not so much whether a person is "attractive" or "unattractive", but what kind of personality and "vibe" they convey. For example, Michelle Malkin is considered attractive, yet there's something about her expression and overall affect that repels me. This might help make it clear.

Page 3 in the Binder of Women Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:00:09am

re: #49 Kronocide

This is wrong on so many levels... but I can't stop laughing.

Omg, that's all.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:00:19am

re: #52 Daniel Ballard

Al Gore & GWB were struck by lightning? Who knew...
//

That was actually in the counting process, where elections actually can be swayed. The amount of coordination and secrecy needed to organize people fraudulently walking into a booth and voting to a degree to swing an election is all but impossible.

dragonath Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:01:12am

A lot of people don't trust my Governor, but if you look into his eyes you can see into his soul.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:01:27am

re: #51 Kragar

I absolutely destroyed a Ron Paul libertarian over who disagreed with gay marriage using libertarian ideals about property rights the other day. Actually got him to admit that he only had religious objections to it and that all his political and economic arguments were bullshit. Twas glorious.

Ron Paul type libertarians are the worst. I'll be honest. I can kind of deal with the others but the Paul fans will make any excuse for their guy.

Daniel Ballard Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:01:29am

re: #49 Kronocide

This is wrong on so many levels... but I can't stop laughing.

First time I ever asked a science site to pull a story. PoPsci, under my RWC nic. Not that I expect them to actually do so.

Daniel Ballard Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:02:33am

re: #56 Kragar

The point is it was so close that the recount had to happen. And so the error margin went up not down. May as well have flipped a coin to pick the winner. In fact that is what we may as well do with all the really close ones.

erik_t Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:03:12am

re: #49 Kronocide

This is wrong on so many levels... but I can't stop laughing.

It's weird, but no more wrong than mounting your prize buck or prized poodle, both actions that happen enough for taxidermy to be an actual industry.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:04:17am

re: #49 Kronocide

This is wrong on so many levels... but I can't stop laughing.

"Watch the amazing flying pussy." Have to admit as crass as it is, it's kind of cool looking though I'd freak if I saw that thing in real life.

dragonath Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:04:18am

re: #61 erik_t

[Link: shewalkssoftly.files.wordpress.com...]

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:04:28am

re: #61 erik_t

It's weird, but no more wrong than mounting your prize buck or prized poodle, both actions that happen enough for taxidermy to be an actual industry.

"You might think this cat can really fly. Nope, just another amazing creation by Chuck Testa."

Mattand Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:04:36am

re: #49 Kronocide

This is wrong on so many levels... but I can't stop laughing.

Ironically, he turned his dead parakeet into an RC Sherman Tank.

Daniel Ballard Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:05:35am

re: #37 Varek Raith

You're 35 times more likely to be struck by lightning than to commit voter fraud. Or 3500 times more likely to report a UFO.
Yeah...

BTW since voter fraud is a crime and lightning a random factor.... Seems like golfers in Florida must be the fraudsters. :-)

erik_t Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:06:17am

re: #32 Daniel Ballard

Okay, not widespread... So how much fraud is acceptable to you in a race that comes down to less than 1% of the vote? Nothing matters in a wide margin win. But what of the close ones? Does the "not widespread" fraud matter then? Like say Florida Presidential elections with hanging chads and all?

No system involving humans will ever have zero error, and the cost-per-additional-certainty becomes eye-popping as you try to go from 99.999% to 99.9999% and beyond. I am unwilling to ascribe an acceptable-error number a priori, but I propose that it exists and is non-zero. What that number might be depends on (among other things) the cost-to-benefit curve, and I don't have the data necessary to hope to construct such a curve.

If you're hoping to hear the number 'zero', well, you're not going to hear it from me.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:06:33am

AFA's Wilson Warns Marriage Equality Will Make America Disappear: 'This is a Nation-Killing Issue'

Wilson stated that “nations in history’s past” that allowed same-sex marriage “no longer exist.” “It is a nation-killing issue,” Wilson stated.

Name one.

Daniel Ballard Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:06:47am

re: #56 Kragar

That was actually in the counting process, where elections actually can be swayed. The amount of coordination and secrecy needed to organize people fraudulently walking into a booth and voting to a degree to swing an election is all but impossible.

Do you oppose or support HAVA?

erik_t Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:07:19am

re: #68 Kragar

AFA's Wilson Warns Marriage Equality Will Make America Disappear: 'This is a Nation-Killing Issue'

Name one.

Never mind that. Correlation and causation, how the fuck do they work?

dragonath Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:09:44am

re: #68 Kragar

SODOM AND GOMMORAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:09:56am

re: #69 Daniel Ballard

Do you oppose or support HAVA?

I support the idea, though the execution has been pretty piss poor.

Achilles Tang Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:09:57am

re: #38 mattand

re: #33 Interesting Times

I try to avoid making that judgement. A friend of mine refused to vote for Clinton because she thought he looked sleazy, and I've got huge swaths of relatives who probably didn't vote for Obama because of his "looks".*

There is something about Walker's facial expression, or lack thereof that I find disturbing; it is not simply a matter of liking or not liking "looks".

There is a valid science to reading facial and body language. I wish I could hear the opinions of some experts in that, on him. The picture posted above is a perfect example, and it is not an cherry picked aberration.

lawhawk Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:11:30am

re: #68 Kragar

Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Iceland, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, and Sweden all recognize SSM. Israel doesn't allow SSM, but recognizes foreign SSMs as legal and valid. Don't think any of those countries have disappeared despite accepting SSM as valid.

Methinks AFA just likes to hear itself bloviate and rake in the $$$ from all the hot air.

Daniel Ballard Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:11:36am

re: #72 Kragar

I support the idea, though the execution has been pretty piss poor.

Then we agree.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:11:56am

re: #70 erik_t

Never mind that. Correlation and causation, how the fuck do they work?

Its like in that one page where someone said moral decay caused the fall of the Roman Empire, then cited a book whose central argument was that the embracing of Christianity causes the collapse.

Killgore Trout Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:12:21am

Can anyone else spot Think Progress headlines without checking the URL? Not sure what it is but they're distinctive somehow.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:13:13am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Can anyone else spot Think Progress headlines without checking the URL? Not sure what it is but they're distinctive somehow.

Yeah. Can't explain it either.

Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:13:26am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Can anyone else spot Think Progress headlines without checking the URL? Not sure what it is but they're distinctive somehow.

Frank's pigtails raise up when in proximity to them.

AK-47% Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:14:17am

re: #68 Kragar

AFA's Wilson Warns Marriage Equality Will Make America Disappear: 'This is a Nation-Killing Issue'

Name one.

This is Dominionism. If we offend God, he will smack us down. We must please god by having our laws and Constitution reflect (their bigoted, close-minded view of) Divine Law.

These AFA guys and their like see the Bible just as a source of an individual moral code (as it is seen in most civilized Christian nations) but as a source of public legislation.

"Teh Gey will kill America!!!"

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:14:30am

re: #68 Kragar

AFA's Wilson Warns Marriage Equality Will Make America Disappear: 'This is a Nation-Killing Issue'

Name one.

Can he name one? Of course, they usually name the Roman Empire's permissive attitude towards homosexuality and ignore that other factors independent of that caused its collapse but hey when you gotta lie, you lie. Canada will be shocked to find it no longer exists.

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:14:43am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Can anyone else spot Think Progress headlines without checking the URL? Not sure what it is but they're distinctive somehow.

That would be the Holy Spirit not to click on their godless liberalism.
/

AK-47% Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:14:47am

re: #72 Kragar

I support the idea, though the execution has been pretty piss poor.

I oppose HAVA, but I am all for Negilah!

Kragar Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:16:15am

re: #81 HappyWarrior

Can he name one? Of course, they usually name the Roman Empire's permissive attitude towards homosexuality and ignore that other factors independent of that caused its collapse but hey when you gotta lie, you lie. Canada will be shocked to find it no longer exists.

As shocked as the Sumerians were when God created the world right around them?

Sumerians Look On In Confusion As God Creates World

Varek Raith Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:17:08am

re: #66 Daniel Ballard

BTW since voter fraud is a crime and lightning a random factor... Seems like golfers in Florida must be the fraudsters. :-)

Problem being that voter fraud is already insanely rare. Every 'solution' I see to this quells actual voters from voting.

Also;

Youtube Video

jaunte Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:18:55am

re: #85 Varek Raith

voter fraud is already insanely rare

Incredibly tiny individual up side when measured against the penalties. Why would any significant number of people take the risk?

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:19:45am

re: #85 Varek Raith

Problem being that voter fraud is already insanely rare. Every 'solution' I see to this quells actual voters from voting.

Also;

[Embedded content]

Yep. I understand why people want to prevent it especially after what happened in 2000 but too often we hear about groups being prevented from voting in these efforts.

Mich-again Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:24:57am

re: #86 jaunte

Incredibly tiny individual up side when measured against the penalties. Why would any significant number of people take the risk?

One potential area for voter fraud is with the senior citizens. We've had that in my community. The Township clerk and cronies have free luncheons at the Township hall and invite all the senior citizens to attend and then they handed out absentee ballots to everyone there and even helped the old geezers fill them out. A voter is supposed to request the absentee ballot from the clerk, the clerk isn't supposed to just go around handing them out.

As the GOP base gets older and older, I look for them to use this tactic more.

Eventual Carrion Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:28:08am

re: #81 HappyWarrior

Can he name one? Of course, they usually name the Roman Empire's permissive attitude towards homosexuality and ignore that other factors independent of that caused its collapse but hey when you gotta lie, you lie. Canada will be shocked to find it no longer exists.

But hadn't the Roman empire permitted/accepted homosexuality since the beginning? So it could be said that accepting it will cause a nation to reach amazing heights, but once mono theistic religion comes into vogue the nation/empire dies.

Daniel Ballard Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:29:33am

re: #87 HappyWarrior
So how hard is it to verify your status with the state and re register if necessary? Is it more or less difficult than renewing your driver license or fishing/hunting license? Disenfranchisement works best on the under motivated, or unaware voters. It can't work in significant numbers on people with a little motivation and ID.

Obdicut Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:31:37am

re: #90 Daniel Ballard

It can work when you also start shutting down the DMVs, as Walker did, making it harder for people to get IDs. And there's always going to be some people who get disenfranchised, and there is no actual significant in-person voter fraud going on.

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:32:52am

re: #91 Obdicut

It can work when you also start shutting down the DMVs, as Walker did, making it harder for people to get IDs. And there's always going to be some people who get disenfranchised, and there is no actual significant in-person voter fraud going on.

Right, Walker started shutting down DMVs not long after he planned his voting fraud initiative. Sorry that makes me suspicious. Plus when you have long time voters suddenly being told they're not citizens.
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

HappyWarrior Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:33:38am

re: #89 RayFerd

But hadn't the Roman empire permitted/accepted homosexuality since the beginning? So it could be said that accepting it will cause a nation to reach amazing heights, but once mono theistic religion comes into vogue the nation/empire dies.

That too but you're actually using you know logic, the thing the AFA sorely lacks.

Daniel Ballard Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:35:41am

re: #91 Obdicut

Guessing to answer as best I can-By the time you get down to those who don't have ID and can't travel that much further to a more distant DMV given months of opportunity to do so before the next election, well that's not a large number of people. Perhaps it is on the same scale as fraud. If it is a large number, it's a number of under motivated voters.

But in any case i am defending HAVA, not the state actions.

Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Mon, Jun 4, 2012 11:42:21am

re: #89 RayFerd

But hadn't the Roman empire permitted/accepted homosexuality since the beginning? So it could be said that accepting it will cause a nation to reach amazing heights, but once mono theistic religion comes into vogue the nation/empire dies.

W: Did you hear about this new group that believes that there is only one God.
S: Yeah, I mean they are an inch close to becoming atheists.

kirkspencer Mon, Jun 4, 2012 12:06:32pm

re: #90 Daniel Ballard

So how hard is it to verify your status with the state and re register if necessary? Is it more or less difficult than renewing your driver license or fishing/hunting license? Disenfranchisement works best on the under motivated, or unaware voters. It can't work in significant numbers on people with a little motivation and ID.

Actually it works on a larger group of voters than just the under motivated and unaware.

Group one: low income, as a rule working long hours with no slack for time to contest disenfranchisement. ("Hey boss? gotta go in to clear my ability to vote." "How long's it going to take?" "Probably all day." "OK, the next day you can look for another job.")

Group two: low mobility, usually elderly. Yes, it's only as hard as getting a driver's license. Which means getting TO the facility with everything. Having recently dealt with the elderly I'm very aware of how hard that is. For the elderly it often also means dealing with long lines and crowds while on medication and dealing with handicaps. Much joy to be had by all.

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