Romney Testified in 2002 That He Attended Bain Board Meetings

Unraveling
Politics • Views: 37,516

One of the big questions about Mitt Romney’s association with Bain Capital is answered by his own 2002 testimony: Mitt Romney’s Own 2002 Testimony Undermines Bain Departure Claim.

WASHINGTON — Mitt Romney’s repeated claim that he played no part in executive decision-making related to Bain after 1999 is false, according to Romney’s own testimony in June 2002, in which he admitted to sitting on the board of the Lifelike Co., a doll maker that was a Bain investment during the period.

Romney has consistently insisted that he was too busy organizing the 2002 Winter Olympics to take part in Bain business between 1999 and that event. But in the testimony, which was provided to The Huffington Post, Romney noted that he regularly traveled back to Massachusetts. “[T]here were a number of social trips and business trips that brought me back to Massachusetts, board meetings, Thanksgiving and so forth,” he said.

Romney’s sworn testimony was given as part of a hearing to determine whether he had sufficient residency status in Massachusetts to run for governor.

Romney testified that he “remained on the board of the Staples Corporation and Marriott International, the Life Like Corporation” at the time.

Yet in the Aug. 12, 2011, federal disclosure form filed as part of his presidential bid, he said, “Mr. Romney retired from Bain Capital on February 11, 1999 to head the Salt Lake Organizing Committee. Since February 11, 1999, Mr. Romney has not had any active role with any Bain Capital entity and has not been involved in the operations of any Bain Capital entity in any way.”

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550 comments
1 darthstar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:22:48pm

But he wasn't involved.

2 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:27:56pm

Oh snap. This is getting really bad for Romney.

Also, what happened to the allegation that Mitt claimed (for voting purposes) that he lived in his son's unfinished basement? Was that ever supported or refuted, because it was hilarious?:

Mitt Romney lived in his son’s unfinished basement in Belmont, Massachusetts in 2010 – or at least that what he claimed to the state to be able to vote last year, says GOP candidate Fred Karger.

If that’s true, Romney showed a true commitment to voting for Republican Senator Scott Brown in last year’s special election, since he owns a $12.5 million home in La Jolla, Calif. and a $10 million home in New Hampshire’s Lake Winnipesaukee – but no home in the state he was once governor.

3 darthstar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:30:38pm

Why is this still a race? Maybe the GOP is waiting until after Tampa to run away from Romney in order to save their asses down ticket.

4 darthstar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:32:30pm
5 Bizono  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:34:30pm

I'm running out of popcorn and we're not even half way through July.

It's been said before, but it can't be emphasized enough - this is the best the GOP has to offer. Their bench is just this awful.

6 darthstar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:36:16pm

re: #5 Bizono

I'm running out of popcorn and we're not even half way through July.

It's been said before, but it can't be emphasized enough - this is the best the GOP has to offer. Their bench is just this awful.

Big Corn is behind the Romney campaign! Who needs a farm bill when you have a walking nightmare?

7 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:39:08pm

IMAGINE the damage control war room tonight. Or maybe they are just checking on the health of Rafalca.

8 dragonath  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:43:53pm

One of the things I noticed today is that Romney's old primary opponents are being vewwwy vewwwy qwiet. Either they're planning to stay quiet until the convention, or they've just decided congressional races are a better use of their time.

9 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:44:57pm

THIS WAS THE BEST CANDIDATE THEY COULD FIND! THE BEST ONE!

lol

10 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:45:17pm

re: #1 darthstar

But he wasn't involved.

Won't matter: It's a signed legal document. To be fair, Mitt Romney really was managing the Winter Olympics from 1999-2002, and Bain hasn't been accused of breaking the law during that time. But none of that matters: If Mitt Romney signed a legal disclosure form stating he left Bain at Date D, when he knew that he had really left the firm on Date E, then by the law that's Perjury.

11 Mich-again  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:45:54pm

re: #9 erik_t

THIS WAS THE BEST CANDIDATE THEY COULD FIND! THE BEST ONE!

lol

More like the least bad candidate.

12 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:49:28pm

re: #2 goddamnedfrank

Oh snap. This is getting really bad for Romney.

Also, what happened to the allegation that Mitt claimed (for voting purposes) that he lived in his son's unfinished basement? Was that ever supported or refuted, because it was hilarious?:

This is what happens when you have become used to treating truth as a convenience.

DEMAND CORPORATE EXPERIENCE FOR THE PRESIDENCY!!!1

13 Mich-again  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:50:16pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

If Mitt Romney signed a legal disclosure form stating he left Bain at Date D, when he knew that he had really left the firm on Date E, then by the law that's Perjury.

I doubt there will be any perjury charges unless you mean in the court of public opinion.

14 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:52:02pm

I love that factcheck.org can type this with a straight face:

None of the SEC filings show that Romney was anything but a passive, absentee owner during that time, as both Romney and Bain have long said.

He signed the documents. He was the sole shareholder, CEO, Chairman of the Board and President. If the buck doesn't stop with him who the fuck did it stop with?

Factcheck has an investment in their original dumbass ruling, there's a serious level of inertia involved at this point that they're simply unwilling to overcome no matter how much evidence piles up against them.

15 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:52:03pm

re: #13 Mich-again

I doubt there will be any perjury charges unless you mean in the court of public opinion.

Perjury is like taxes--they're for the Little People.

16 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:57:09pm

re: #13 Mich-again

I doubt there will be any perjury charges unless you mean in the court of public opinion.

I mean technically. Whether an actual charge is filed is another matter entirely.

17 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:58:06pm

re: #14 goddamnedfrank

I love that factcheck.org can type this with a straight face:

Technically correct, which is the best kind of correct!

18 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 6:58:08pm

I mean, sure I signed legal documents involved with the purchase of stock in a company that disposed of aborted fetuses, attended board meetings as Chairman, held the titles of CEO and President and profited enormously, but I wasn't involved.

19 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:01:33pm

Absentee ≠ Abandoned

This is just one of many word relationships that factcheck needs to get through their bullshit, triangulating brains.

20 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:03:15pm

re: #19 goddamnedfrank

Absentee ≠ Abandoned

This is just one of many word relationships that factcheck needs to get through their bullshit, triangulating brains.

Factcheck (and Politifact) are as South Park.

There's Side A, about ten units thataway! There's Side B, about twenty units thataway! Let's move five units towards Side B, proclaim both sides wrong and inane and probably make fun of their mothers, then declare middle-victory!

21 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:03:26pm

Deleted.

22 jaunte  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:05:41pm

"...sitting on the board of the Lifelike Co., a doll maker..."

Nexus-6 model?

23 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:07:02pm

re: #22 jaunte

"...sitting on the board of the Lifelike Co., a doll maker..."

Nexus-6 model?

How do we know the real Mitt didn't actually get replaced back then? It would explain a lot.

24 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:10:45pm

In the end, I don't think this matters all that much to the voter. It's not going to sway Republicans or Democrats. It may have some influence on Indies, but historically anyway, people don't really give a crap. They want to focus on more tangible issues, preferably those they can relate to like taxes, jobs, economy, healthcare (where Republicans fail miserably).

Case in point, Rick Scott was the acting CEO of Columbia Healthcare System which perpetuated the largest Medicaid/Medicare fraud in our nations history. Then he ran for Florida Governor... and well... you know the rest.

25 Mattand  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:12:22pm

re: #14 goddamnedfrank

I love that factcheck.org can type this with a straight face:

He signed the documents. He was the sole shareholder, CEO, Chairman of the Board and President. If the buck doesn't stop with him who the fuck did it stop with?

Factcheck has an investment in their original dumbass ruling, there's a serious level of inertia involved at this point that they're simply unwilling to overcome no matter how much evidence piles up against them.

First, Poltifact and now Factcheck.org. I'm running out of websites I can trust for deciphering political bullshit.

26 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:12:22pm

lulz

27 sagehen  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:12:43pm

re: #15 Decatur Deb

Perjury is like taxes--they're for the Little People.

Or blowjobs.

28 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:13:36pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

I think that Factcheck wants to be decently regarded by both sides.

I believe they want to be decently regarded by people too stupid to think or do research for themselves.

29 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:14:20pm

DAMN IT! sorry to ask again but how do you tweet a comment?

30 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:14:41pm

re: #28 goddamnedfrank

I deleted the post. I realized was making an argument without evidence and so I pulled it.

31 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:15:20pm

re: #24 What, me worry?

In the end, I don't think this matters all that much to the voter. It's not going to sway Republicans or Democrats. It may have some influence on Indies, but historically anyway, people don't really give a crap. They want to focus on more tangible issues, preferably those they can relate to like taxes, jobs, economy, healthcare (where Republicans fail miserably).

Case in point, Rick Scott was the acting CEO of Columbia Healthcare System which perpetuated the largest Medicaid/Medicare fraud in our nations history. Then he ran for Florida Governor... and well... you know the rest.

It pretty much undermines the entirety of Romney's campaign story, namely "I'm a successful businessman who knows how to create jobs." He's been able to dodge Bain's darker moments between the years of '99 and '02 for the longest time by insisting he wasn't there, he was too busy with the Olympics. Now that's all been shredded by the reality that, even if he was not personally partaking in day-to-day decisions, he was in charge and the buck stopped at his desk.

32 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:15:28pm

re: #24 What, me worry?

Counterpoint: Florida.

33 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:16:25pm

re: #24 What, me worry?

In the end, I don't think this matters all that much to the voter. It's not going to sway Republicans or Democrats. It may have some influence on Indies, but historically anyway, people don't really give a crap. They want to focus on more tangible issues, preferably those they can relate to like taxes, jobs, economy, healthcare (where Republicans fail miserably).

Case in point, Rick Scott was the acting CEO of Columbia Healthcare System which perpetuated the largest Medicaid/Medicare fraud in our nations history. Then he ran for Florida Governor... and well... you know the rest.

He obviously was a great businessman. Ripped of the Government quite well. Morals, no more.

34 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:18:46pm

I want to tweet a comment!

35 jaunte  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:19:05pm
Romney's lawyer at the Massachusetts hearing said that Romney's work in the private sector continued "unabated" while he ran the Olympics: "He succeeded in that three-year period in restoring confidence in the Olympic Games, closing that disastrous deficit and staging one of the most successful Olympic Games ever to occur on U.S. soil. Now while all that was going on, very much in the public eye, what happened to his private and public ties to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts? And the answer is they continued unabated just as they had."

"The answer is whatever answer will be most opportune."

36 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:19:29pm

re: #34 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

I want to tweet a comment!

No.
:P

37 jaunte  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:19:59pm

re: #34 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Brevity is the soul...

38 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:20:07pm

re: #31 Targetpractice

It pretty much undermines the entirety of Romney's campaign story, namely "I'm a successful businessman who knows how to create jobs." He's been able to dodge Bain's darker moments between the years of '99 and '02 for the longest time by insisting he wasn't there, he was too busy with the Olympics. Now that's all been shredded by the reality that, even if he was not personally partaking in day-to-day decisions, he was in charge and the buck stopped at his desk.

Well he created jobs. Just not U.S. jobs, which is part of the problem. But then he didn't do much different than so many other conglomerates. The difference is, he's running for President, of course.

With the boneheads who reside in my lovely state, I have to wonder how much of it gets through. And Romney didn't do anything criminal.

39 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:20:35pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

No.
:P

fucker

40 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:20:38pm

re: #32 erik_t

Counterpoint: Florida.

Don't I know it.

41 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:22:04pm

re: #38 What, me worry?

Well he created jobs. Just not U.S. jobs, which is part of the problem. But then he didn't do much different than so many other conglomerates. The difference is, he's running for President, of course.

With the boneheads who reside in my lovely state, I have to wonder how much of it gets through. And Romney didn't do anything criminal.

That's true. no one is saying Bain broke the law.

42 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:22:07pm

re: #38 What, me worry?

Well he created jobs. Just not U.S. jobs, which is part of the problem. But then he didn't do much different than so many other conglomerates. The difference is, he's running for President, of course.

With the boneheads who reside in my lovely state, I have to wonder how much of it gets through. And Romney didn't do anything criminal.

That's the point, he did nothing illegal because companies like Bain have used their billions in clout to rewrite the rules in their favor. His opponents hit him time and time again with the reality that he was a corporate raider, a vulture capitalist, who was pledged to only one goal: Providing the biggest payoff to investors, even if it meant ruining thousands of lives in the process.

43 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:22:11pm

re: #39 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

fucker

Image: troll-face.png

44 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:23:22pm

re: #34 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

I want to tweet a comment!

Load the comment, copy its URL to cache and press Control-Y. Use the short link button to shorten the URL.

45 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:23:34pm

OK, what is wrong with this? July in LA & it RAINING.
Yes, we need the rain, but can it wait?

46 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:23:51pm

re: #45 Dancing along the light of day

OK, what is wrong with this? July in LA & it RAINING.
Yes, we need the rain, but can it wait?

No.

47 jaunte  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:24:28pm
48 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:25:09pm

The latest on our crook Gov Rick Scott, he has a list now of 180,000 residents he wants to examine for voter purging. I can't get to an article about it (internet woes), but he was given the OK to submit the names. When he submitted 2,700, they only found 40 people that needed purging. The various state election supervisors are really pissed .They think it's horrendous so I don't know how it will all play out, but those kinds of numbers can tip Florida easily.

49 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:26:13pm

Mitt is the candidate the Republican Party deserves.

50 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:27:47pm

re: #49 It's a cookbook!

Mitt is the candidate the Republican Party deserves.

Mitt and Bain are just a very elaborate viral marketing campaign for the latest Batman movie.

51 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:28:08pm

re: #49 It's a cookbook!

Mitt is the candidate the Republican Party deserves.

You go to the election with the incompetent candidate you have, not the incompetent candidate you wish you had.

52 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:28:12pm

The locks haven't been changed?

53 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:29:05pm

How goes the lizardy lounging?

54 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:29:11pm

re: #50 Kragar

Mitt and Bain are just a very elaborate viral marketing campaign for the latest Batman movie.

Bain on a Plane.

55 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:29:38pm

re: #52 b_sharp

The locks haven't been changed?

*faceplam* Damnit, I knew I forgot to do something.

56 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:29:58pm

re: #54 Varek Raith

Bain on a Plane.

Snakes.

57 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:30:07pm

re: #54 Varek Raith

Bain on a Plane.

I can't have snakes on a plane! I'm running for President for crying out loud!

58 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:30:21pm

re: #45 Dancing along the light of day

OK, what is wrong with this? July in LA & it RAINING.
Yes, we need the rain, but can it wait?

Raining here too. Humidity like Florida!

59 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:30:23pm

re: #50 Kragar

Mitt and Bain are just a very elaborate viral marketing campaign for the latest Batman movie.

He's more like Inception: a candidate within a candidate within a candidate...

60 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:31:13pm

re: #55 Targetpractice

*faceplam* Damnit, I knew I forgot to do something.

Get them tomorrow, the riffraff are scheduled later.

61 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:31:17pm

An elevator for his cars? Sounds like an excuse to do work on the mansions foundation.

62 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:31:42pm

re: #42 Targetpractice

That's the point, he did nothing illegal because companies like Bain have used their billions in clout to rewrite the rules in their favor. His opponents hit him time and time again with the reality that he was a corporate raider, a vulture capitalist, who was pledged to only one goal: Providing the biggest payoff to investors, even if it meant ruining thousands of lives in the process.

Right. I don't want someone like that as President. It's not about capitalism. I'm all for capitalism. But Big Biz and Gov don't mix. Government is not meant to be profitable nor can be run the same way. .

63 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:31:44pm

I'm pretty sure it's just me (at least around here) but the only evidence the article provides is this...

Romney has consistently insisted that he was too busy organizing the 2002 Winter Olympics to take part in Bain business between 1999 and that event. But in the testimony, which was provided to The Huffington Post, Romney noted that he regularly traveled back to Massachusetts. "[T]here were a number of social trips and business trips that brought me back to Massachusetts, board meetings, Thanksgiving and so forth," he said.

Can Anyone else see the potential problems with this? No link for context, a short truncated quote advancing the desired partisan agenda, from a partisan outlet, by partisan authors. Is there any reason to take this seriously?

64 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:33:09pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

I'm pretty sure it's just me (at least around here) but the only evidence the article provides is this...

Can Anyone else see the potential problems with this? No link for context, a short truncated quote advancing the desired partisan agenda, from a partisan outlet, by partisan authors. Is there any reason to take this seriously?

It's not like Romney attended OWS.

65 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:33:13pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

I'm pretty sure it's just me (at least around here) but the only evidence the article provides is this...

Can Anyone else see the potential problems with this? No link for context, a short truncated quote advancing the desired partisan agenda, from a partisan outlet, by partisan authors. Is there any reason to take this seriously?

What, honestly, do you want? Ten pages of blockquotes?

66 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:35:54pm

re: #65 erik_t

What, honestly, do you want? Ten pages of blockquotes?

For Mr. Bond to die!

67 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:35:57pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

I'm pretty sure it's just me (at least around here) but the only evidence the article provides is this...

Can Anyone else see the potential problems with this? No link for context, a short truncated quote advancing the desired partisan agenda, from a partisan outlet, by partisan authors. Is there any reason to take this seriously?

You of course, omitted the following part in that article that more defined the counter to your stupid argument of support. Look it up.

Fame whore.

68 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:35:59pm

re: #58 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Raining here too. Humidity like Florida!

BAD hair weather!

69 jaunte  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:36:03pm
Romney has long said that he took a leave of absence from Bain because the work of organizing the 2002 Winter Olympics was so grueling, which has allowed him to deny responsibility for Bain activities during 1999 and 2002.

His activities during that period also included Staples board meetings: "I returned for most of those meetings. Others I attended by telephone if I could not return."

Attending board meetings in person and by telephone would seem to be involvement.

70 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:36:44pm

re: #68 Dancing along the light of day

BAD hair weather!

That's why I gave up hair.

71 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:37:08pm

re: #70 b_sharp

That's why I gave up hair.

Or did your hair give you up?

///

72 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:37:27pm

re: #68 Dancing along the light of day

BAD hair weather!

Oh, I'm hippy all the way now! fuck it!

73 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:37:28pm

re: #69 jaunte

Attending board meetings in person and by telephone would seem to be involvement.

Maybe Mitt Romney is actually Buster Bluth.

74 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:37:30pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

I'm pretty sure it's just me (at least around here) but the only evidence the article provides is this...

Can Anyone else see the potential problems with this? No link for context, a short truncated quote advancing the desired partisan agenda, from a partisan outlet, by partisan authors. Is there any reason to take this seriously?

Lawhawk explained it in the other thread, but if he's listed as CEO, he's technically running the company, whether he's sitting behind the desk or not. Anything that company does, it does with his approval.

What kind of business person would he be anyway if he's the CEO and doesn't know what his company is doing?

75 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:37:44pm

re: #65 erik_t

What, honestly, do you want? Ten pages of blockquotes?

I'd like a link to their source material. What board meetings? Which companies and what was is role in those meetings? Given the increasingly dishonest claims on this matter from partisan sources I can't seem to find reason to give this a second look.

76 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:37:45pm
UPDATE: 9:15 p.m. --
The Romney campaign responded by focusing on Romney's involvement with Bain itself, and argued that the state Ballot Law Commission validated their argument that Romney was not involved in day-to-day Bain matters.

"After extensive hearings the Ballot Law Commission came to the same conclusion as numerous independent fact checkers in finding that Mitt Romney ended his active employment with Bain Capital in 1999. Every public judgment, including a unanimous one from the Ballot Law Commission, has confirmed this fact," said Romney spokeswoman Amanda Henneberg.

Henneberg called the controversy over Romney's employment at Bain "just another distraction from a desperate campaign that is willing to say anything to divert attention from President Obama’s failed record in office.”

However, the purpose of the Ballot Law Commission inquiry was to determine Romney's residency, not whether he had done any part-time work on behalf of Bain. Indeed, in two days of testimony, the Democratic lawyer didn't question Romney about his role at Bain, as the issue wasn't a live one. That question only arose in recent years when Romney categorically denied any active involvement with Bain.

In addition, the Romney campaign's response does not address whether by sitting on LifeLike's board until 2001, Romney's 2011 disclosure form statement that he had "not been involved in the operations of any Bain Capital entity in any way" was false.

77 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:38:04pm

re: #71 SunshineSuperman

Or did your hair give you up?

///

Shhh. I don't want it to know that I miss it.

78 dragonath  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:38:05pm

re: #62 What, me worry?

Oh I'm sure Romney will enjoy the privilege of power. But who is he going to delegate the responsibility to?

79 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:38:32pm

re: #72 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Oh, I'm hippy all the way now! fuck it!

Pics.

How is the move going?

80 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:38:57pm

re: #69 jaunte

Attending board meetings in person and by telephone would seem to be involvement.

He made these statements to ESTABLISH MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENCY WHILE RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.

Geeze. Killgore, you are an asshole to defend the obvious for attention.

81 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:39:16pm

re: #78 Be Zorch, Daddio

Oh I'm sure Romney will enjoy the privilege of power. But who is he going to delegate the responsibility to?

Mr. Convenient Lackey over yonder.

82 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:41:06pm

re: #79 b_sharp

Pics.

How is the move going?

Sunday. SUNDAY. Got all the peeps in order, the truck etc. Holy shit, once its over it will be OVER.

83 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:41:12pm

re: #80 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

He made these statements to ESTABLISH MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENCY WHILE RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.

Geeze. Killgore, you are an asshole to defend the obvious for attention.

But do you have the long-form board meetings?

84 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:42:18pm

re: #82 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Sunday. SUNDAY. Got all the peeps in order, the truck etc. Holy shit, once its over it will be OVER.

I'd wish you luck, but tomorrow is Friday the 13th and it might carry over to Sunday.

85 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:42:49pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

I'd like a link to their source material. What board meetings? Which companies and what was is role in those meetings? Given the increasingly dishonest claims on this matter from partisan sources I can't seem to find reason to give this a second look.

The Boston Globe is honest enough, but the Huffington Post is not to be trusted on this matter.

86 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:43:04pm

re: #83 erik_t

But do you have the long-form board meetings?

Yah, but it has layers.

87 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:43:08pm

re: #83 erik_t

But do you have the long-form board meetings?

Slippery Mitt. Whatever he needs at the moment, he uses. Bummer about the internet and all that shit. Oh and the dweebs that try to concoct lame arguments against printed words.

88 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:43:40pm

re: #84 b_sharp

I'd wish you luck, but tomorrow is Friday the 13th and it might carry over to Sunday.

NO. I do not subscribe to voodoo.

90 dragonath  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:44:30pm

re: #76 goddamnedfrank

Romney should have invested more in "LifeLike" because I don't think ROMBOT12 is really cutting it.

91 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:45:04pm

re: #89 Learned Mother of Zion

Crude, rude, and lewd.

92 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:45:30pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

Crude, rude, and lewd. Downding.

It got "Comment of the Day"

93 palomino  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:47:16pm

re: #42 Targetpractice

That's the point, he did nothing illegal because companies like Bain have used their billions in clout to rewrite the rules in their favor. His opponents hit him time and time again with the reality that he was a corporate raider, a vulture capitalist, who was pledged to only one goal: Providing the biggest payoff to investors, even if it meant ruining thousands of lives in the process.

After all the other gop clown candidates dropped out, they warned Obama not to go after Romney on Bain or the very charges of vulture capitalism they had made themselves. Their reasoning: these kinds of attacks didn't work in the gop primaries, thus don't work. Period.

But the GOP primary voters and the electorate at large are two very different animals. The GOP base is far less receptive to any argument that could cause any subsidence of their raging unquestioning free-market hard-on.

Having said that, I'm not sure this all has legs. It probably should, but things like SEC filings and dates of full vs. partial control of Bain may be too abstruse for moderate to low info voters to care about.

94 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:47:32pm

re: #92 Learned Mother of Zion

It got "Comment of the Day"

Downding withdrawn, then, but I still find the comment filthy.

95 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:49:03pm

re: #93 palomino

After all the other clowns dropped out, they warned Obama not to go after Romney on Bain or the very charges of vulture capitalism they had made themselves. Their reasoning: these kinds of attacks didn't work in the gop primaries.

But the GOP primary voters and the electorate at large are two very different animals. The GOP base is far less receptive to any argument that could cause any subsidence of their raging unquestioning free-market hard-on.

Well that and, you know, the rest of the GOP candidates were too incompetent to win a third-grade class election without the help of Sheldon Adelson's Snickerdoodles.

Obama does not have this problem so much.

96 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:49:20pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

Crude, rude, and lewd. Downding.

Now I HAVE to look.

97 jaunte  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:49:48pm

"Dr.-Reed-Richards-hair-having-mofo"

98 allegro  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:50:38pm

re: #93 palomino

I think it's just a small part of an ever growing picture. The more into focus it becomes, the more grotesque the subject appears.

99 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:51:20pm

Maine Governor: IRS Is Headed In The Direction Of Killing A Lot Of People

Yeah, first he called the IRS the Gestapo and now this?
Nutter.

100 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:52:41pm

re: #90 Be Zorch, Daddio

Romney should have invested more in "LifeLike" because I don't think ROMBOT12 is really cutting it.

We've been over this before. You build robots that can pass the Voight-Kampf Test, all hell breaks loose. Harrison Ford is too old to be relied upon to retire more Nexus-6s....

101 Interesting Times  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:52:43pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

Crude, rude, and lewd.

re: #96 What, me worry?

Now I HAVE to look.

re: #98 allegro

I think it's just a small part of an ever growing picture. The more into focus it becomes, the more grotesque the subject appears.

:)

102 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:52:46pm

re: #99 Varek Raith

Maine Governor: IRS Is Headed In The Direction Of Killing A Lot Of People

Yeah, first he called the IRS the Gestapo and now this?
Nutter.

The link did not work.

103 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:53:53pm

re: #102 Dark_Falcon

The link did not work.

Whoops.
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

104 palomino  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:54:19pm

re: #98 allegro

I think it's just a small part of an ever growing picture. The more into focus it becomes, the more grotesque the subject appears.

Well put...the imagery reminds me of walking across a large gallery in an art museum, approaching a painting by Hieronymus Bosch or Francis Bacon or Edvard Munch. As one gets closer, the reaction goes from "huh?" to "wtf".

105 allegro  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:54:39pm

re: #101 Interesting Times

re: #96 What, me worry?

re: #98 allegro

:)

Heh.

106 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:55:02pm

re: #100 The Ghost of a Flea

We've been over this before. You build robots that can pass the Voight-Kampf Test, all hell breaks loose. Harrison Ford is too old to be relied upon to retire more Nexus-6s...

Are you sure you want robots that can pass a test co-written by John Voight? He's liable to have the test written to only pass robots built to bag tea.

///

107 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:55:52pm

Politico, dropping knowledge:

Speaking before the ballot commission on June 18, 2002, Romney offered a different story: that he had every intention of returning to Bain Capital at the time he left to take over the Olympics, and only later decided he wanted to move on from the company entirely.

“When I left my employer in Massachusetts in February of 1999 to accept the Olympic assignment, I left on the basis of a leave of absence, indicating that I, by virtue of that title, would return at the end of the Olympics to my employment at Bain Capital, but subsequently decided not to do so and entered into a departure agreement with my former partners, I use that in the colloquial sense, not legal sense, but my former partners,” Romney said.

He continued: “Upon completion of that agreement and that understanding with them, it was at approximately at that time that Ann and I decided that we would devote the time that I would spend in my career going forward to public service of one kind or another.”

108 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:56:15pm

re: #99 Varek Raith

Maine Governor: IRS Is Headed In The Direction Of Killing A Lot Of People

Yeah, first he called the IRS the Gestapo and now this?
Nutter.

And here comes the non-apology;

Update

LePage spokeswoman Adrienne Bennett said the governor’s “radio message that will be released on Friday will also include an apology for language that may have offended people.”

109 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:56:51pm

re: #93 palomino

I've heard that argument before, the "people can't understand the intricate nature," but what they do understand is when you say "Romney was CEO of Bain when it was cutting jobs, outsourcing them to China, and investing in a company that disposed of aborted fetuses." The Romney campaign and its fellow travelers will argue that just because he was CEO doesn't mean he was calling the shots, but that's hair-splitting. He was the CEO, he was the sole stockholder, the buck stopped at his desk. That's something anybody with a basic understanding of how a company works can understand.

110 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:58:27pm

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

Are you sure you want robots that can pass a test co-written by John Voight? He's liable to have the test written to only pass robots built to bag tea.

///

I'm sure he'd add subroutines for disapproving of gay people. (Apparently he decided to write a letter in support of the homophobic rant by Brad Pitt's mom.)

111 kirkspencer  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:58:58pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

I'd like a link to their source material. What board meetings? Which companies and what was is role in those meetings? Given the increasingly dishonest claims on this matter from partisan sources I can't seem to find reason to give this a second look.

SEC filings are source material. So are the official filings to the FEC.

Everyone keeps pointing to the stuff found recently, the paperwork signed by Romney that is contrary to what he said, and you keep calling it partisan.

From 1999 through 2002 Romney filed with the SEC saying he was the CEO and sole shareholder. He filed with the FEC claiming he had left the company during that same period.

Now whether there's a prosecution or not remains to be seen, but both sets carry a potential charge for perjury if erroneous information is put on them.

Yes, there is speculation. After all, there are four years of paperwork saying he was in charge. Four years of nobody being appointed replacement or interim or acting CEO. Four years in which Mitt Romney had to sign paperwork claiming to be the man responsible for things his company did. It is possible he did so blindly.

If so, he has demonstrated great stupidity.

112 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:59:00pm

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

Are you sure you want robots that can pass a test co-written by John Voight? He's liable to have the test written to only pass robots built to bag tea.

///

Just program them with the Three Laws. There's no way anything could go wrong.

//

113 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:59:21pm

re: #93 palomino

After all the other clowns dropped out, they warned Obama not to go after Romney on Bain or the very charges of vulture capitalism they had made themselves. Their reasoning: these kinds of attacks didn't work in the gop primaries.

But the GOP primary voters and the electorate at large are two very different animals. The GOP base is far less receptive to any argument that could cause any subsidence of their raging unquestioning free-market hard-on.

Having said that, I'm not sure this all has legs. It probably should, but things like SEC filings and dates of full vs. partial control of Bain may be too abstruse for moderate to low info voters to care about.

jajaja

Has Obama's campaign mentioned Bain at all? I don't recall so.

Character assassination doesn't work well, unless you just go over the top like cheat on your dying wife, have a baby with the mistress and lie about it...

Like I say, people want to know, what will my taxes be, will I be able to go to the doctor without going broke, can my kid get a good education, etc.

114 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:59:32pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

He was the CEO, he was the sole stockholder, the buck stopped at his desk. That's something anybody with a basic understanding of how a company works can understand.

Even if it didn't, it sure does for the presidency. So many random half-excuses to come out of that camp fail this most basic test.

You posit that your business experience prepares you for the presidency better than being President does? Well, then your business experience has to live up to much higher standard.

115 jaunte  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 7:59:34pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

Former SEC commissioner Roberta S. Karmel:

"If someone invested with Bain Capital because they believed Mitt Romney was a great fund manager, and it turns out he wasn’t really doing anything, that could be considered a misrepresentation to the investor... It’s a theory that could be used in a lawsuit against him."

116 b_sharp  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:01:41pm

re: #88 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

NO. I do not subscribe to voodoo.

I'm going to go have a magic shot of lucky Scotch in honour of your move.

Then I'm going to go pass out.

117 Interesting Times  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:02:06pm
118 EastSider  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:03:18pm

it's okay guys, we know the right wing has a hatred for murky backstories and a penchant for digging for the truth. When even the slightest appearance of a misdeed in one's history is alleged, they will start their search--and nothing, not even blatant facts, court decisions, extended debunkings or their own humiliation will stop them.

All we have to do is just sit back, relax, and the right wing bloggers will follow every real and imagined thread of this story until we know the exact details of Mitt Romney's history. Am I right or am I right?

hello?


guys?

119 allegro  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:03:18pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

"Romney was CEO of Bain when it was cutting jobs, outsourcing them to China, and investing in a company that disposed of aborted fetuses."

It isn't that he did anything illegal. He didn't, AFAIK. It's the hypocrisy of preaching the immorality of these things NOW, the very cores of his platform to buy earn the job of the presidency while having no problem personally profiting from them quite directly. Which he did. Fact.

Dates are a diversion.

120 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:03:58pm

re: #117 Interesting Times

[Embedded content]

LOL. Legal documents. What's that?

121 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:04:20pm

re: #117 Interesting Times

[Embedded content]

Legal documents have a well-known factual bias.

122 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:05:32pm

re: #119 allegro

It isn't that he did anything illegal. He didn't, AFAIK. It's the hypocrisy of preaching the immorality of these things NOW, the very cores of his platform to buy earn the job of the presidency while having no problem personally profiting from them quite directly. Which he did. Fact.

Dates are a diversion.

And figs are a distraction.

123 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:06:04pm

according to drudge, romney is gonna pick condy? wtf?

124 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:06:07pm
125 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:07:58pm

re: #123 SpaceJesus

according to drudge, romney is gonna pick condy? wtf?

Trial balloon. Watch it pop shortly when the general consensus comes back of "Wasn't she one of the Bush team?"

126 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:08:27pm

re: #122 Dark_Falcon

And figs are a distraction.

Figments? Figtional?

127 SpaceJesus  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:08:38pm

re: #125 Targetpractice

my thoughts exactly. it will anger the left and the tea party will see her as establishment.

128 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:08:56pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

"Perjury, Perjury!!" jumping up and down and running around the room

This is delicious.

129 Gus  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:09:55pm

re: #125 Targetpractice

Trial balloon. Watch it pop shortly when the general consensus comes back of "Wasn't she one of the Bush team?"

Weapons of mass destruction!

//

130 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:10:29pm

re: #122 Dark_Falcon

And figs are a distraction.

I think it's the fig leaves that are meant to be a distraction.

131 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:10:32pm

re: #112 Targetpractice

Just program them with the Three Laws. There's no way anything could go wrong.

//

No, use CASPAR II programming from Battletech. Much more capable than the Three Laws in decision making, though in large part because it throws the Third Law out the window, being very 'mission completion focused'.

/extreme geekage in progress

132 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:10:43pm

re: #126 The Ghost of a Flea

Figments? Figtional?

Little known fact: Figs are not a fruit but an inverted flower. Still delicious
Also little known: Das Boot still holds up after all these years. Watching now

133 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:11:39pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

They are good in cookies.

134 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:12:25pm

re: #130 prairiefire

I think it's the fig leaves that are a distraction.

No, it's what fig leaves tend to cover on the human body that as the distracting bits.

135 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:13:27pm

re: #131 Dark_Falcon

No, use CASPAR II programming from Battletech. Much more capable than the Three Laws in decision making, though in large part because it throws the Third Law out the window, being very 'mission completion focused'.

/extreme geekage in progress

Thinking machines are an abomination against the Omnisiah. Only sanctioned servitors are to be trusted.

/

136 dragonath  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:13:29pm

re: #125 Targetpractice

I think it's been long enough since 9/11 that people will be feeling bold enough to attack her alleged negligence during the run up to the attacks. The honeymoon is over.

137 jaunte  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:14:02pm
138 allegro  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:15:17pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Little known fact: Figs are not a fruit but an inverted flower. Still delicious
Also little known: Das Boot still holds up after all these years. Watching now

My mom fixed the most excellent treats during my little kidhood. When the figs ripened, she stuffed them with peanut butter and rolled them in a little powdered sugar. Om nom nom.

139 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:15:44pm

re: #137 jaunte

[Embedded content]

"I totally have some really primo news dude, but I just need a little cash to get it out there."

140 palomino  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:16:45pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

Crude, rude, and lewd. Downding.

Sure, he uses profanity and is disrespectful. But he makes a valid, if debatable, point: that the right's rhetoric is extremely condescending to black voters. Prime examples: (1) blacks vote Dem primarily because they want free stuff; AND (2) the gop really has the best interests of blacks at heart, and the Dems are racists, but blacks are too naive/stupid/brainwashed to figure this out.

If you're being talked down to like a child by a political party, then you've got reason to be a little pissed.

141 jaunte  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:16:46pm

re: #139 Kragar

"Oh, the stories I could tell, but a man gets a mite parched..."

142 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:17:07pm

Boston.com is in on the liberal hippie OWS partisan bandwagon:

The firm [Bain] did not respond to Globe questions about why SEC filings show Romney in control of five Bain Capital business partnerships that were formed in January 2002 — long after Romney claims to have left.

...

One securities specialist said that Bain — a privately held company that is not traded on the stock market — should not be held to the same standard of accuracy as a publicly traded corporation. Adam C. Pritchard, a professor of securities law at the University of Michigan, described filings disclosing Bain dealings investments as “ministerial.”

“The only way someone would be misled is if they were an investor in” Bain, he said. It would be a different matter in a publicly traded firm, he added: “If Apple were listing Steve Jobs as CEO, that would be a problem, him being dead and all.”

Others, including Roberta S. Karmel, a former SEC commissioner quoted by the Globe on Thursday, say SEC filings are a crucial window on the operations of business.

“Let me put it this way,” Karmel said: “It’s a pretty serious problem to file false documents with the SEC. You can be prosecuted for that.”

143 bratwurst  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:17:15pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Also little known: Das Boot still holds up after all these years. Watching now

As you watch, keep in mind that Lieutenant Werner (Herbert Grönemeyer) went on to become the biggest selling German language recording artist of all time.

144 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:17:49pm

re: #135 Kragar

Thinking machines are an abomination against the Omnisiah. Only sanctioned servitors are to be trusted.

/

CASPAR II drones are not actually sentient. They have highly sophisticated programming, but they cannot act beyond its limits. And that programming discards petty concerns of the survival of the drone in favor of the completion of the mission. Such a concept violates the percepts of the Imperium not at all, and in fact fits the ideals of willingness to sacrifice for the greater good and the Emperor's glory far better than the Three Laws ever did.

/geek debate

145 EastSider  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:18:16pm

A few thoughts:

1) The GOP picked the least controversial candidate of the six eight ten (?) originally presented. Someone who has spent much of his adult life avoiding scandal and is by all accounts the most polished and refined possible choice. And he is still a monumental fuckup with an unclear past.

2) On that point, Romney's past is a train wreck. His biggest asset (business experience) has now become a giant liability. His biggest legislative accomplishment was the petry dish for Mordor, as far as the GOP is concerned. Anything happening more than 4 years ago is off the table.

3) On top of this, Romney has no future-facing positions that he advocates with force (or, none that I'm aware of, and I consider myself to be at least moderately informed of what's going on). The most coherent position I've heard is that he will be "pro-business" whatever that means.

Any attempt to make the campaign about Romney is good news for Obama (and clearly, the Dems are not going to stop hitting that well for quite some time). At this point, the GOP is running on Obama's negatives.

And as a reminder, that would be the negatives for the guy who personally ordered the take down of the biggest enemy since Hitler in a fashion so dramatic that Tom Clancy would have thrown it out as unbelievable and over-the-top.

Bon chance, GOP.

146 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:19:02pm

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

CASPAR II drones are not actually sentient. They have highly sophisticated programming, but they cannot act beyond its limits. And that programming discards petty concerns of the survival of the drone in favor of the completion of the mission. Such a concept violates the percepts of the Imperium not at all, and in fact fits the ideals of willingness to sacrifice for the greater good and the Emperor's glory far better than the Three Laws ever did.

/geek debate

Oh, they're machine spirits. Why didn't you say so?

147 prairiefire  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:19:03pm

"Severe consequences..."[Link: www.rawstory.com...]

148 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:19:18pm

re: #145 EastSider

A++, would upding again.

149 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:19:41pm

re: #142 goddamnedfrank

Boston.com is in on the liberal hippie OWS partisan bandwagon:

That isn't news, they're the ones who ran with the story according to the Washington Post.

150 Big Joe  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:22:01pm

re: #123 SpaceJesus

according to drudge, romney is gonna pick condy? wtf?

"Hey, look over there, something shiny, Condi Rice!!!11!"

151 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:22:24pm

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

That isn't news, they're the ones who ran with the story according to the Washington Post.

So that makes Boston Globe, HuffPo, and Politico so far all reporting essentially identical accounts of Romney's testimony before the elections eligibility board in 2002. Wondering how long KT can hold out before acknowledging this happened.

152 erik_t  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:22:48pm

re: #151 goddamnedfrank

So that makes Boston.com, the Globe, HuffPo, and Politico so far all reporting essentially identical accounts of Romney's testimony before the elections eligibility board in 2002. Wondering how long KT can hold out before acknowledging this happened.

crickets
ribbets

153 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:23:35pm

re: #146 Kragar

Oh, they're machine spirits. Why didn't you say so?

I had to make sure my explanation was correct, especially since the Battletech universe has had computers that actually could think within limited parameters. But CASPAR II's cannot. They are mostly intended for use in star system defense use. In 40K, you might think of such units being built on a relatively industrialized world for its defense (under proper oversight from the relevant Adepts, of course), thus freeing the Imperium's manned starships for mobile defense or possibly for offensive operations.

154 Big Joe  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:24:51pm

re: #136 Be Zorch, Daddio

I think it's been long enough since 9/11 that people will be feeling bold enough to attack her alleged negligence during the run up to the attacks. The honeymoon is over.

I always think of this episode of "The Lone Gunmen" when I think of her.

"I don't think anybody could have predicted that...they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile," said National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.

155 jaunte  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:25:03pm
156 palomino  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:25:05pm

re: #113 What, me worry?

jajaja

Has Obama's campaign mentioned Bain at all? I don't recall so.

Character assassination doesn't work well, unless you just go over the top like cheat on your dying wife, have a baby with the mistress and lie about it...

Like I say, people want to know, what will my taxes be, will I be able to go to the doctor without going broke, can my kid get a good education, etc.

Yeah, the Obama campaign has been using Bain as an attack; effectively enough thus far that it's prompted Romney's camp to get very defensive.

I don't think this qualifies as character assassination. We're talking about the firm Romney oversaw and its practices--totally fair game, especially in light of Romney's claim that Bain is his greatest achievement and qualifies him to be Prez. Not surprisingly he downplays his term as Mass. Gov--anything that reminds Republicans of Romneycare, his pro-choice record, or the fact that he used to be a moderate, is gonna be pushed aside.

157 Burbank_Ben  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:25:35pm

re: #2 goddamnedfrank

Romney:
Image: egbgjq.png

158 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:26:05pm

re: #145 EastSider

Sweet post.

Don't forget he was pro-choice and invented ObamaRomneycare.

The other added bonus, we could end up with Ryan's tax budget which takes more from the middle class, takes less from the 1%, cuts social security and Medicare benefits... just a horror.

159 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:26:45pm

re: #138 allegro

My mom fixed the most excellent treats during my little kidhood. When the figs ripened, she stuffed them with peanut butter and rolled them in a little powdered sugar. Om nom nom.

Excellent choice! my favorite is fresh fig and peanutbutter sandwiches. I picked up a nice trick from the French for my surplus figs: slice figs in half, sprinkle of lavender and a drizzle of honey. Put them in the food dehydrator and Bob's your uncle!

160 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:28:02pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

I had to make sure my explanation was correct, especially since the Battletech universe has had computers that actually could think within limited parameters. But CASPAR II's cannot. They are mostly intended for use in star system defense use. In 40K, you might think of such units being built on a relatively industrialized world for its defense (under proper oversight from the relevant Adepts, of course), thus freeing the Imperium's manned starships for mobile defense or possibly for offensive operations.

Too expensive. Easier just to lobotomize a few thousand criminals and turn them into servitors.

161 Interesting Times  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:28:05pm

Win:

162 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:28:47pm

re: #160 Kragar

Too expensive. Easier just to lobotomize a few thousand criminals and turn them into servitors.

Yes, but can you use them in space?

163 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:29:20pm

re: #161 Interesting Times

That's rather low, don't you think.

164 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:29:56pm

If you're going to condemn facts about someone's previous service as "character assassination" then it just tells me that you know how bad the facts are. No one's making any tenuous connections here.

165 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:31:26pm

re: #162 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but can you use them in space?

Yup. All you need is minimal life support for the brain.

166 palomino  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:31:56pm

re: #158 What, me worry?

Sweet post.

Don't forget he was pro-choice and invented ObamaRomneycare.

The other added bonus, we could end up with Ryan's tax budget which takes more from the middle class, takes less from the 1%, cuts social security and Medicare benefits... just a horror.

If only the Dems could frame it articulately but simply, it seems like the Ryan Budget would be a winner for them. Most of the country wants higher taxes on the top ~2%, lower taxes on the mid class, and generally supports SS/Medicare. Polls have shown this for decades. But if the message isn't pounded home clearly, it won't matter.

167 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:32:56pm

re: #165 Kragar

Yup. All you need is minimal life support for the brain.

Might work. can such systems by wired into an interplanetary (not interstellar) spacecraft?

168 Targetpractice  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:33:06pm

re: #160 Kragar

Too expensive. Easier just to lobotomize a few thousand criminals and turn them into servitors.

Or just slap them into power armor and use them as ground troops?

/

169 jaunte  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:35:57pm

re: #160 Kragar

Too expensive. Easier just to lobotomize a few thousand criminals and turn them into servitors.

Brazilian inmates can reduce their sentence by providing human-powered electricity
[Link: grist.org...]

170 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:36:03pm

re: #156 palomino

Yeah, the Obama campaign has been using Bain as an attack; effectively enough thus far that it's prompted Romney's camp to get very defensive.

I don't think this qualifies as character assassination. We're talking about the firm Romney oversaw and its practices--totally fair game, especially in light of Romney's claim that Bain is his greatest achievement and qualifies him to be Prez. Not surprisingly he downplays his term as Mass. Gov--anything that reminds Republicans of Romneycare, his pro-choice record, or the fact that he used to be a moderate, is gonna be pushed aside.

But he's done nothing illegal.

Unfortunately some people think that running a large corporation qualifies you as President, I guess because you deal with people and budgets and so forth. But whatever it is, the aim of the company, any company, is profit. That is not the aim of government. Government takes care of society and its needs. So certainly if you think that, they won't care much about Bain.

Now the part they may care about is the outsourcing. Not a popular thing, even among (or maybe even especially among) Republicans. Again, not illegal, but is probably the foremost reason of job loss here.

171 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:37:03pm

re: #161 Interesting Times

Win:

[Embedded content]

I ♥ Wolfrum. One funny dude.

172 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:37:57pm

re: #168 Targetpractice

Or just slap them into power armor and use them as ground troops?

/

The Adeptus Mechanicus use them all the time.

re: #167 Dark_Falcon

Might work. can such systems by wired into an interplanetary (not interstellar) spacecraft?

They can be used for a variety of tasks.

173 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:41:12pm

re: #172 Kragar

The Adeptus Mechanicus use them all the time.

re: #167 Dark_Falcon

They can be used for a variety of tasks.

Understood. Still, the greater skill and processing power of the computer systems of the CASPAR II might still dictate their use i a particularly smart or powerful enemy was the projected threat.

But that's just my view, I could be wrong.

174 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:49:14pm

Detroit News, the mad metal hessians of opinion journalism:

He was paid a six figure salary by Bain the whole time he ran the Olympics and in 2002 he told the state Ballot Law Commission that “his separation from Bain in 1999 had been a “leave of absence” and not a final departure.”

In other words, Romney is telling the voters he had no idea what Bain was doing after February 1999 even though he was listed as sole owner and stockholder while drawing a six figure salary from them for years after and four other mysterious business entities were incorporated in conjunction with Bain during that time. Remind me again why we’re supposed to trust his “business experience” if he didn’t even know what his corporation was doing in his name?

The Romney campaign announced it will demand the Globe retract the story, but they’re just reporting what the documents say and asking the appropriate questions. There is an easier way for Romney to resolve the discrepancies between his campaign statements and his legal filings. Rather than trying to browbeat the media into covering up for him, he could just release the last ten years of his tax returns as every serious candidate for president has done since his own father set the precedent.

175 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:49:33pm

re: #173 Dark_Falcon

Understood. Still, the greater skill and processing power of the computer systems of the CASPAR II might still dictate their use i a particularly smart or powerful enemy was the projected threat.

But that's just my view, I could be wrong.

The standard Imperium response in that case would be to double the amount of men and launch another attack.

176 palomino  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:50:02pm

re: #170 What, me worry?

But he's done nothing illegal.

Unfortunately some people think that running a large corporation qualifies you as President, I guess because you deal with people and budgets and so forth. But whatever it is, the aim of the company, any company, is profit. That is not the aim of government. Government takes care of society and its needs. So certainly if you think that, they won't care much about Bain.

Now the part they may care about is the outsourcing. Not a popular thing, even among (or maybe even especially among) Republicans. Again, not illegal, but is probably the foremost reason of job loss here.

I've never accused Romney of any crimes. I certainly don't see any likely illegalities on Romney's part (with the possible exception of perjury, but I don't know enough about the testimony to comment knowledgably).

It's more a question, as you suggest at the end of your post, that there's something morally--not legally--questionable about Romney's practices as head of Bain, particularly in the context of the Great Patriotic American Job Creator he now presents himself as.

177 Big Joe  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:50:09pm

re: #170 What, me worry?

But he's done nothing illegal.

He signed and submitted conflicting legal documents.

178 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:54:12pm

re: #156 palomino

Yeah, the Obama campaign has been using Bain as an attack; effectively enough thus far that it's prompted Romney's camp to get very defensive.

I don't think this qualifies as character assassination. We're talking about the firm Romney oversaw and its practices--totally fair game, especially in light of Romney's claim that Bain is his greatest achievement and qualifies him to be Prez. Not surprisingly he downplays his term as Mass. Gov--anything that reminds Republicans of Romneycare, his pro-choice record, or the fact that he used to be a moderate, is gonna be pushed aside.

Maybe character assassination isn't completely accurate, but if he was the CEO after 99, he did lie, or didn't tell the whole truth as to mislead, so what does one call that?

I still say the better tactic is to promote what effects people directly.

179 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:58:38pm

re: #176 palomino

I've never accused Romney of any crimes. I certainly don't see any likely illegalities on Romney's part (with the possible exception of perjury, but I don't know enough about the testimony to comment knowledgably).

It's more a question, as you suggest at the end of your post, that there's something morally--not legally--questionable about Romney's practices as head of Bain, particularly in the context of the Great Patriotic American Job Creator he now presents himself as.

I think most of his arguments fall apart under scrutiny.

i could say what he meant to say at the time he said he "left the company" was that he left the day-to-day duties, which is his weasely way out of it and people who like him will accept that.

180 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:01:04pm

re: #177 Big Joe

He signed and submitted conflicting legal documents.

Well, they haven't decided that's true.

181 palomino  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:02:40pm

re: #178 What, me worry?

Maybe character assassination isn't completely accurate, but if he was the CEO after 99, he did lie, or didn't tell the whole truth as to mislead, so what does one call that?

I still say the better tactic is to promote what effects people directly.

At worst, it would be perjury. At best, just phoniness.

Either way, it's potentially injurious to Romney and thus Obama will use it.

I agree it's not the highest road to take, nor the most substantively important. The other issues you mention trump this one easily. But I think the Obama campaign can balance the attacks on Romney and still articulate a sound policy vision that affects many millions of voters.

182 allegro  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:02:46pm

re: #178 What, me worry?

I think this does speak to people directly and on a very visceral level. So much of the population has suffered some pretty big unfairness the past few years that have cost them their futures while watching the futures of their children dim significantly. Romney is coming more and more to represent the reasons why they are having such a tough time. To insult further, this guy profited obscenely from their misfortune and has not represented himself in a flattering light regarding discretion of his consumption.

It's a story that hits home on multiple levels to a really big demographic.

183 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:05:17pm

re: #181 palomino

At worst, it would be perjury. At best, just phoniness.

Either way, it's potentially injurious to Romney and thus Obama will use it.

I agree it's not the highest road to take, nor the most substantively important. The other issues you mention trump this one easily. But I think the Obama campaign can balance the attacks on Romney and still articulate a sound policy vision that affects many millions of voters.

They could work it into the other things. Talking about jobs, for instance, and mention the Bain connection to investing in companies that outsourced.

184 Ming  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:07:48pm

re: #74 What, me worry?

What kind of business person would he be anyway if he's the CEO and doesn't know what his company is doing?

Well, I guess as President, he'd be a lot like George W. Bush.

185 palomino  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:08:12pm

re: #179 What, me worry?

I think most of his arguments fall apart under scrutiny.

i could say what he meant to say at the time he said he "left the company" was that he left the day-to-day duties, which is his weasely way out of it and people who like him will accept that.

On that first point, I think you're probably right due to Romney's slippery nature.

The story won't have legs unless it can be proved that some unsavory things happened at Bain from 99-03 and that Romney was still involved, even if only as the titular head, with the goings-on there. But it's looking more and more like that's a possibility.

186 Areopagitica  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:08:46pm

Let me guess; Mittens was against being the Bain CEO before and during which he was also in favor of being the Bain CEO.....

Somewhere in Massachusetts right now, John Kerry is having a good laugh and a drink.

187 allegro  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:08:52pm

re: #184 Ming

Well, I guess as President, he'd be a lot like George W. Bush.

LOL! You just won the internets.

(and made me spit my tea)

188 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:09:19pm

re: #175 Kragar

The standard Imperium response in that case would be to double the amount of men and launch another attack.

True, and that underlines how the Imperium differs from the Word of Blake faction in Battletech that developed the CASPAR II. The WoB had a distinctly limited amount of manpower it could put aboard space vessels, which made the Imperial approach impossible. So they needed to spend more money and save manpower, whereas the Imperium has the opposite set of needs.

189 palomino  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:09:47pm

re: #183 What, me worry?

They could work it into the other things. Talking about jobs, for instance, and mention the Bain connection to investing in companies that outsourced.

Yeah, that sounds like a potentially effective line of attack, and it's not really dirty politicking at all.

190 palomino  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:11:42pm

re: #186 Areopagitica

Let me guess; Mittens was against being the Bain CEO before and during which he was also in favor of being the Bain CEO...

Somewhere in Massachusetts right now, John Kerry is having a good laugh and a drink.

Kerry flip flopped on one big issue.

Are there any big issues on which Romney hasn't flip flopped?

191 What, me worry?  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:11:47pm

re: #182 allegro

I think this does speak to people directly and on a very visceral level. So much of the population has suffered at some pretty big unfairness the past few years that have cost them their futures while watching the futures of their children dim significantly. Romney is coming more and more to represent the reasons why they are having such a tough time. To insult further, this guy profited obscenely from it their misfortune and has not represented himself in a flattering light regarding discretion of his consumption.

It's a story that hits home on multiple levels to a really big demographic.

it is, but like I said above, when real, low down crooks like Rick Scott win the governorship, I have to wonder what people will accept in a candidate.

Very interesting (and then I'm off to bed). I have a Republican friend who hates Romney and is thoroughly disgusted at all the choices she had. She likes the ACA and Obama's foreign policy moves a great deal. I may have a live one :)

192 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:12:47pm

re: #188 Dark_Falcon

True, and that underlines how the Imperium differs from the Word of Blake faction in Battletech that developed the CASPAR II. The WoB had a distinctly limited amount of manpower it could put aboard space vessels, which made the Imperial approach impossible. So they needed to spend more money and save manpower, whereas the Imperium has the opposite set of needs.

Yeah, the Imperium's one surplus is manpower. Standard combat doctrine for fighting some alien races is for heavy and special weapons gunner to take their shot, then toss the weapon aside for a squad mate to retrieve. The man is replaceable, the equipment is not.

193 Ming  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:16:50pm

re: #145 EastSider

Any attempt to make the campaign about Romney is good news for Obama (and clearly, the Dems are not going to stop hitting that well for quite some time). At this point, the GOP is running on Obama's negatives.

The GOP has been obsessed with nothing but Obama's negatives, actually GOP-manufactured negatives, for a long time. They managed to have an entire primary season with no interest in who their own candidates were. The only thing that attracted their attention was the ability to beat Obama. They knew Romney had the funding, and the ability to lie, and the fire in the belly, so they went with him.

Many Republicans couldn't care less who their own candidate is. It doesn't matter what he did at Bain Capital. It doesn't matter what he did as Massachusetts Governor. It doesn't even matter much what he says his positions are now. All they care about is beating Obama.

194 Areopagitica  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:17:47pm

re: #117 Interesting Times

Ten bucks says that Mitt takes the position that as the makebelieve CEO, he just signed SEC documents without reading them beforehand, therefore everything is okay, trust him....

Or he can just say it was all Obama's fault ;-)

195 allegro  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:21:05pm

re: #194 Areopagitica

Ten bucks says that Mitt takes the position that as the makebelieve CEO, he just signed SEC documents without reading them beforehand, therefore everything is okay, trust him...

Or he can just say it was all Obama's fault ;-)

Just more proof that all these regulations are hurting him business!

196 allegro  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:22:21pm

Man, I really want some peanut butter stuffed figs. Now.

Damn, y'all.

197 dragonath  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:25:18pm

re: #190 palomino

Kerry's famous quote was explaining how he voted in a specific Senate committee vote. It was the perfect Republican attack- a gotcha moment combined with a lack of civics knowledge.

Of course, Romney doesn't have that excuse.

198 General Nimrod Bodfish  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:35:36pm

re: #190 palomino

Well, there's a difference between changing your position on an issue because of new evidence, and changing your position for political gain/reasons. Kerry's was the former, Romney's the latter.

199 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:37:02pm

re: #197 Be Zorch, Daddio

Kerry's famous quote was explaining how he voted in a specific Senate committee vote. It was the perfect Republican attack- a gotcha moment combined with a lack of civics knowledge.

Of course, Romney doesn't have that excuse.

It wasn't so much a lack of knowledge as just latching onto the quote and attacking. It made Kerry look ridiculous and he couldn't really argue the point without having to give explanations that were far too long for a sound bite.

200 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:37:41pm

re: #198 Worrell-Rimshot 2012!

Well, there's a difference between changing your position on an issue because of new evidence, and changing your position for political gain/reasons. Kerry's was the former, Romney's the latter.

But a shift could be done for both reasons at the same time.

201 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:41:43pm

re: #192 Kragar

Yeah, the Imperium's one surplus is manpower. Standard combat doctrine for fighting some alien races is for heavy and special weapons gunner to take their shot, then toss the weapon aside for a squad mate to retrieve. The man is replaceable, the equipment is not.

I'm not going to ever detail the abominations of the other recent evil faction in Battletech, the renegade scientists called The Society. Their genetic manipulations were so monstrous that an entire star system of three inhabitable worlds was subjected to an orbital bombardment so severe as to amount to Exterminatus.

202 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:46:23pm

re: #200 Dark_Falcon

But a shift could be done for both reasons at the same time.

Only if you get hit over the head and suffer a concussion. Otherwise it's too coincidental and impossible to believe. Even I think Obama's turnaround on gay marriage was a calculated move. His personal opinion probably changed years before and I think he only allowed his public stance to shift once the downside risk was mostly if not entirely cancelled out by changing public opinion and the opportunity to lock in gay votes and gay fundraising.

203 General Nimrod Bodfish  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:47:05pm

re: #200 Dark_Falcon

But a shift could be done for both reasons at the same time.

True, but in Kerry's case, it was obvious that if he were to knew how the war went, then he wouldn't have voted for it in the first place. (this comment based on the assumption that it's over the Iraq War part deux).

Regardless, a lot of things are based on perception. There was a perception that Kerry flip-flopped one the issue because they didn't want to look at the evidence that all could see. For Mitt, nearly every policy change he's done was purely to court the TP/GOP vote in the primaries. Went from pro-choice to anti-choice. Pro-health care reform to anti-health care reform. He was for things before he was against them. All to position himself better for the presidency.

204 Mich-again  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:47:34pm

re: #194 Areopagitica

Ten bucks says that Mitt takes the position that as the makebelieve CEO, he just signed SEC documents without reading them beforehand, therefore everything is okay, trust him...

I think Mitt will say his name being on the form was an error, but even if he had been involved he wasn't getting paid, and even if he was getting paid he donated the money to charity.

205 Mich-again  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:57:04pm

re: #193 Ming

They knew Romney had the funding, and the ability to lie, and the fire in the belly, so they went with him.

Mitt had it pretty easy. The field was a clown show.

206 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 9:58:03pm

Time for me to get to bed. Goodnight, all.

207 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:05:56pm

re: #205 Mich-again

Mitt had it pretty easy. The field was a clown show.

The Republican Party's own ideology got in the way of properly vetting Romney. Republicans are so hung up on the importance of their own individual rights that they bought into his refusal to release ten years worth of tax returns. If he'd been forced to do so as a condition of candidacy this is almost certain to have come out, instead they ignored behavior that should have been viewed as a huge red flag.

208 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:15:52pm

My daughter's spent the last week messing around with a loose tooth but has been too scared to pull it out.

She finally worked up the nerve to wrap some floss around it, but didn't want anyone to pull it.

So as soon as she turns to talk to my wife, I reach under her arm and yank.

Tooth is out.

209 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:20:41pm

re: #208 Kragar

My daughter's spent the last week messing around with a loose tooth but has been too scared to pull it out.

She finally worked up the nerve to wrap some floss around it, but didn't want anyone to pull it.

So as soon as she turns to talk to my wife, I reach under her arm and yank.

Tooth is out.

Dick.

/

210 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:25:28pm

re: #209 It's a cookbook!

Dick.

/

I'm a dad, its my job.

211 Mich-again  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:28:18pm

re: #207 goddamnedfrank

The Republican Party's own ideology got in the way of properly vetting Romney. Republicans are so hung up on the importance of their own individual rights that they bought into his refusal to release ten years worth of tax returns. If he'd been forced to do so as a condition of candidacy this is almost certain to have come out, instead they ignored behavior that should have been viewed as a huge red flag.

The GOP was more concerned with Obama's birth certificate than Mitt's tax returns.

212 Kronocide  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:31:17pm

The flagrant false equivalence between Mitt's Bain experiences and birtherism is pretty scandalous. Shame on the lizards that are sipping from that bottle.

213 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:43:16pm

Dad called ex-wife: 'You can come home now ... I killed the kids'

Jessica Schaffhausen thought her ex-husband, Aaron, was working a construction job in North Dakota, but he'd been fired last week when he didn't show up for work. He had threatened to kill Jessica just a few months earlier, but on Tuesday he text-messaged her with a request: He was back in St. Paul and wanted to spend the day with his girls at the family home in River Falls, Wis. She agreed, but insisted that he leave the house before she returned home at 3:30 p.m.

The girls pulled him upstairs to show him their things. Their baby sitter told investigators she followed later, hugged the girls goodbye and left them in Amara's bedroom with their father.

At 3:30 p.m., Jessica Schaffhausen answered her phone and heard her ex-husband's voice: "You can come home now, because I killed the kids."

Police found each girl in her own bed, a blanket drawn up to her neck, dried blood on her face.

According to murder charges filed Thursday against Aaron Schaffhausen, he had slashed the throats of Amara, 11, and Sophie, 8. Cecilia, 5, had been strangled and her throat was slashed.

Subhuman fucking bastard.

214 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 11:06:07pm

re: #199 Dark_Falcon

It wasn't so much a lack of knowledge as just latching onto the quote and attacking. It made Kerry look ridiculous and he couldn't really argue the point without having to give explanations that were far too long for a sound bite.

It actually wasn't a flip-flop at all. Kerry didn't oppose the funding, he just favored an amendment (introduced by Joe Biden, by the way) that would have paid for part of the cost by reducing the top end of the Bush tax cuts. There never was any question that the bill would pass - the final vote was 87-12 and Kerry's nay was merely symbolic. My guess is that if it had been at all close, it wouldn't have been Kerry's vote that would have sunk it, but we'll never know because it never got near to that point.

What nobody remembers is that Bush had threatened to veto the bill if it included the Biden amendment (I imagine an alternative reality in which Bush says something like "I actually lobbied for the bill before I vetoed it"), but for some reason no one took that to mean that Bush was against funding the troops or was a flip-flopper. Probably it had something to do with the fact that the Republicans had already sewn up Karl Rove's services.

By the way, first time/long time (if you call a month or so "long"). Please be gentle. I can't hang around long now because it's late here on the East coast, but I'll be back tomorrow.

215 Tigger2  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 11:19:01pm
216 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 11:24:26pm

Bloomberg Businessweek opening up a branch office in Mitt Romney's butt:

Mitt Romney is named as one of two managing members of Bain Capital Investors LLC in annual reports filed in Massachusetts as late as 2002, adding a new corporate entity to a growing number of Bain-related investments and funds that list the Republican presidential candidate as controlling the company three years after he said he left it.

Separate documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, reviewed by Bloomberg News, also show Romney in 2000 as the sole stockholder of Bain Capital Investors, Inc.

217 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 11:45:47pm

re: #216 goddamnedfrank

Bloomberg Businessweek opening up a branch office in Mitt Romney's butt:

Blood is in the water.

218 Kragar  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 11:47:19pm

re: #217 It's a cookbook!

Blood is in the water.

All I can say is if this swings Nebraska to Ron Paul, I'm going to laugh my ass off.

219 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jul 12, 2012 11:50:36pm

Okay, Huff has a headline full of awesome.

MITTSTORM

220 boxhead  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:18:04am

too bad all the people likely to vote for Mitt don't care what he has done, as long as he is not Obama.

221 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:18:20am

re: #212 Kronocide

The flagrant false equivalence between Mitt's Bain experiences and birtherism is pretty scandalous. Shame on the lizards that are sipping from that bottle.

The only sense it has in common is that it is a red herring: whether Mitt was actively involved in BC during his leave of absence or not is almost entirely irrelevant.

Point is that he makes claims that his experience as a "successful" businessman qualifies him for the presidency.

We see what his "success" was founded on and how poorly it qualifies him to run the country.

222 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:21:24am

re: #205 Mich-again

Mitt had it pretty easy. The field was a clown show.

He was fortunate there was such an abundance of clowns: had the socons rallied around Santorum without Gingrich, they could have given Mitt a run right up to the convention.

223 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:25:25am

Since my system disk decided to go belly up today I've been without a computer till just an hour ago... new drive, OSX installation, multi-hour Time Machine restore... sigh... computers.

Anyway, I see something or other happened to Mitt.

224 Mocking Jay  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:35:46am

No one could have seen this coming...

225 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:39:31am

re: #224 It's a cookbook!

No one could have seen this coming...

...said the Invisible Man's girlfriend.

226 boxhead  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:41:40am

re: #212 Kronocide

The flagrant false equivalence between Mitt's Bain experiences and birtherism is pretty scandalous. Shame on the lizards that are sipping from that bottle.

If you are referring to comment 211, then I don't think you read that post correctly. The post did not equate the two views, it just equated the energy spent on birtherism and Bain. And for the record, I don't think the Left could ever match the time and money spent on President Obama's birth certificate on Bain.

227 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:44:54am

So while we are talking about Mitt at the 2002 winter Olympics: which country did he order the US team uniforms from?

228 boxhead  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:46:00am

re: #227 Expand Your Ground

So while we are talking about Mitt at the 2002 winter Olympics: which country did he order the US team uniforms from?

Old Navy? wait, is that a country?

//

229 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:47:57am

Bainana Republic?

230 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:01:21am

Now I get to go around in multiple loops of Apple's automatic update system... oh joy.

I guess I should be glad that it all works and actually in the end works well, but it does suck a lot of time.

231 researchok  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:03:40am

Morning, all

232 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:21:36am

see if they can pin this one on him

233 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:32:56am

Drought leads to declaration of natural disaster in 26 US states

America declared a natural disaster in more than 1,000 drought-stricken counties in 26 states on Thursday.

It was the largest declaration of a national disaster and was intended to speed relief to about a third of the country's farmers and ranchers who are suffering in drought conditions.

The declaration from the US department of agriculture includes most of the south-west, which has been scorched by wildfires, parts of the midwestern corn belt, and the south-east.

It was intended to free up funds for farmers whose crops have withered in extreme heatwave conditions linked by scientists to climate change.

According to the US drought monitor, 56% of the country is experiencing drought conditions – the most expansive drought in more than a decade

234 boxhead  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:36:12am

re: #231 researchok

Morning, all

good morning to you

235 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:38:01am

re: #208 Kragar

My daughter's spent the last week messing around with a loose tooth but has been too scared to pull it out.

She finally worked up the nerve to wrap some floss around it, but didn't want anyone to pull it.

So as soon as she turns to talk to my wife, I reach under her arm and yank.

Tooth is out.

OMG, Kragar is the TOOTH FAIRY!

236 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:38:41am

I grew up in central Illinois without air conditioning. It's just summer - get over it!" George F. Will

237 researchok  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:48:22am

re: #234 boxhead

What's new?

238 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:50:59am

Our America today comes from Tennessee:

Letter: Creationism doesn't reject science

Jeffrey P. Wood, Knoxville

In response to the evolutionist gentleman who is threatened by the "monkey bill," I ask why he is so afraid of dialogue. Apparently, he missed my last response to his previous letter, or he concedes my argument saying both evolution and creationism are faith systems. Somehow I doubt he understands the implications of the scientific method, which is founded on repeatability. Neither can be repeated, therefore either must be accepted or rejected by faith. He claims "creationists generally reject science." No, what we reject is exclusionary science.

Now to address the red herring he put out to distract from the real topic, which is: "Is creationism scientifically legitimate or wrong because it includes God?"

[...]

"The days describe literal days." Creationists agree; they do.

"The sun wasn't created until the forth day, and you can't have evening and morning without the sun." Tell that to the people in Alaska every winter.

By setting up this straw man and knocking him over, the evolutionist shows how weak his position is. He will go great lengths to prevent the kind of fruitful dialogue our kids should be allowed to experience as they learn to think critically.

As I wrote previously, since creationism and evolution are both faith systems, I ask you, the reader, what gives you a reason to have hope for mankind: I am the product of mindless evolution of endless time, or I am created in the image of the living God who loves us all?

239 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 1:54:13am

"Is creationism scientifically legitimate or wrong because it includes God?"

If it includes God, it cannot be science. Science is about things that can be objectively verified.

240 boxhead  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 2:05:47am

re: #237 researchok

What's new?

not much... up late again.... lol

241 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 2:19:33am
242 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 2:50:10am

So, Amazon will eventually end up collecting sales tax from me (starting in the not too distant future), but... the big plan appears to be for it to deliver to my door the same day I order:

I Want It Today

Personally I'd rather wait a day or two and save the 10%.

243 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 2:54:53am

The strange folk are in town once again. Fortunately my magic shield should protect me.

244 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 3:04:46am

re: #242 freetoken

So, Amazon will eventually end up collecting sales tax from me (starting in the not too distant future), but... the big plan appears to be for it to deliver to my door the same day I order:

I Want It Today

Personally I'd rather wait a day or two and save the 10%.

In Germany, an electronics chain called Media markt has finally figured out that it needs stores for people who want it today, or want to see it/hold it in their hands first.

But they are also doing a big a e-mail-order business. Their stores are, in effect, just big shop windows for people to stare into.

245 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 3:10:59am

re: #242 freetoken

So, Amazon will eventually end up collecting sales tax from me (starting in the not too distant future), but... the big plan appears to be for it to deliver to my door the same day I order:

I Want It Today

Personally I'd rather wait a day or two and save the 10%.

Is the 10% the sales tax of the same day delivery fee up-service charge?

If the latter, just order next day (or beyond) delivery saving the 10%

246 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 3:12:37am

It's a great option, especially if you live in a rural area and have to factor in the time and cost of getting to and from the store.

247 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 3:22:54am

re: #245 sattv4u2

10% is my local sales tax, which Amazon will eventually charge.

248 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 3:26:04am

re: #247 freetoken

10% is my local sales tax, which Amazon will eventually charge.

Oh
I was confused because you stated "Personally I'd rather wait a day or two and save the 10%" making it sound like the 10% was the same day delivery service charge

249 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 3:26:58am

re: #247 freetoken

10% is my local sales tax, which Amazon will eventually charge.

And technically, it's not Amazon charging the 10%

It's your locals going after Amazon making them collect the 10%

250 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 4:33:13am

China, allegedly communist (but it's not, in reality) still in the minds of many Americans, doesn't have things like social security... and health care has to be paid for by whomever can cough up coin:

13-year-old boy suffers horrific assault in China

A 13-year-old boy is in intensive care in Beijing after two adults assaulted him by releasing compressed air into his body using a mechanical pump at an automobile repair shop.

[...]

The boy helped out at the auto repair shop, where two co-workers allegedly inserted the nozzle of an air pump into his anus and filled his body with air. The suspects have been detained.

[...]

Angel Mom, a charity group that helped arrange the hospital transfer, posted on Weibo that Du has a serious nose infection that is causing necrosis. [...]

Du's father, uncle and grandfather went along to Beijing. The boy's mother died six years ago.

The family said they earn around 5,000 yuan ($780) per year from a small plot of land.

"We sent him to the repair shop because our family is close with the owner," said the grandfather. "Since his mother passed away, his dad hoped the owner of the repair shop could take care of him. We think of the owner as the boy's guardian."

The repair shop owner did not pay him money but bought him clothes and other items, according to the grandfather. He said the teenager does not actually work there but helps with simple tasks.

China Daily reported that his treatment at the first hospital, in Shandong, cost about 100,000 yuan, and that the repair shop owner paid for 60% of it.

Angel Mom said it has received over 400,000 yuan in donations for the boy but has since suspended the donation drive, as the money seems to be enough for his treatment for now -- it would start accepting donations again if more funds are needed.

The family said Du's father had received 101,500 yuan of the donations so far.

Indentured servitude is what we used to call these sort of arrangements, or maybe an apprenticeship if actual skill was passed along.

Anyway, the health care depends upon payment by individuals, and fortunately the shop owner is taking some of the responsibility for what his employees did to the boy. Yet donations from others are still needed.

This is healthcare for much of the world - medical care may or may not be available, and to pay for it the person must pay directly or in some cases (like this) charity can help.

251 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 4:38:54am

From over!my!med!body!

More than four out of five people in families spending more than 10 percent of their pre-tax income on health care costs are insured.

50.7 million non-elderly Americans with insurance are in families that will spend more than 10 percent of their pre-tax income on health care costs in 2008.

More than three out of four people (75.8 percent) in families spending more than 25 percent of their pre-tax income on health care
costs are insured.

13.5 million Americans with insurance are in families that will spend more than 25 percent of their pre-tax income on health care
costs in 2008...

252 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 5:01:24am

re: #63 Killgore Trout

Really? This particular article actually fills in a few blanks and the retroactive severance deal makes more sense in this context. He can rightfully claim that he wasn't involved in the company as per that severance agreement (signed in 2002 but retroactive to 1999), but there's still more than enough evidence showing that he was active in Bain activities throughout the period.

Whatever he hoped to get from not being associated with Bain from 1999 to 2002 isn't going to go his way. There's just too much showing that he was active in corporate activities for him to claim that he wasn't responsible for corporate acts or outcomes.

253 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 5:17:16am

re: #252 lawhawk

His active/passive role at Bain during those years is rather irrelevant, even a bit of a red herring. But since he has claimed that his career as a "successful" venture capitalist at BC makes him a better presidential candidate. he has managed to seriously tarnish that image.

254 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 5:20:23am

re: #243 freetoken

Can I help it if I like My Little Pony!?
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

255 A Mom Anon  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 5:33:10am

I'm late to the party on this one(story of my life),but what exactly was Bain Capital doing during the time Romney was supposedly not in charge? I think that's relevant if he's going to so much trouble to make the point that he sees nothing and knows nothing about what went on during the time period in question. What is he hiding? Legal or not,he's protesting a bit too much. If there was nothing to hide,why all the denial?

256 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 5:41:06am

re: #255 A Mom Anon

I'm late to the party on this one(story of my life),but what exactly was Bain Capital doing during the time Romney was supposedly not in charge? I think that's relevant if he's going to so much trouble to make the point that he sees nothing and knows nothing about what went on during the time period in question. What is he hiding? Legal or not,he's protesting a bit too much. If there was nothing to hide,why all the denial?

I haven't seen him really say a word about it the last 24 hours

Bain has made a statement carried in several news services

One here from the LA Times. Another (similar) I saw in USA Toady yesterday
People want to conflate ownership with management authority. That's the distinction here," said a Romney advisor who was not authorized to speak on the record.

The advisor said the formal transfer of ownership of Bain took several years because Romney's departure to run the Olympics was so sudden.

"There was no succession plan," the advisor said. "When it was clear that he wasn't coming back to Bain, they figured out what his retirement package would be."

Bain Capital released a statement saying Romney "has had absolutely no involvement with the management or investment activities of the firm or with any of its portfolio companies since the day of his departure" in February 1999.

"Due to the sudden nature of Mr. Romney's departure, he remained the sole stockholder for a time while formal ownership was being documented and transferred to the group of partners who took over management of the firm in 1999," the statement said. "Accordingly, Mr. Romney was reported in various capacities on SEC filings during this period."

257 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 5:43:09am

re: #255 A Mom Anon

The USA Today story

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

258 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 5:48:27am

re: #256 sattv4u2

The complexities of "ownership" vs. "managmentent authority" are far too arcane to make a difference in an election battle where the electorate probably more concerned about whether Kim Kardashian will every bear Kanye's child.

As Ralphiboy points out, the problem is that Mitt has been selling his Presidential qualifications around how such a spectacular businessman he has been (and trying to ignore his tenure as MA governor with all the realities of Romneycare and abortion), and since Bain was indeed involved in chopping down American companies, moving business overseas, not to meantion owning a company dealing with aborted fetuses, that key Romney sales pitch now looks quite tarnished.

259 A Mom Anon  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 5:54:01am

My question though is what the actual entity called Bain Capital was up to during this time period-1999 to 2002. If Romney was the sole shareholder and CEO then it's kinda obvious the company was mostly his baby. That's really not what I was asking. Is there any way to know what Bain was into at that time? Leaving Romney out of it for a moment,what was the company itself doing then?

260 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 5:55:26am

re: #258 freetoken

Yeah

Sports Authority
Staples
Steel Dynamics
(et al)

And according to US News and World Report
the firm's 80 percent success rate in driving up revenue at the companies it acquires. Romney should be most proud of "his own success in building Bain Capital from scratch into a successful organization with a great reputation that met a significant payroll and provided a service on which the economy absolutely depends." Over 28 years, the firm has boosted income at the companies it backed by $105 billion, creating thousands upon thousands of jobs.

261 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 5:57:58am

re: #259 A Mom Anon

My question though is what the actual entity called Bain Capital was up to during this time period-1999 to 2002. If Romney was the sole shareholder and CEO then it's kinda obvious the company was mostly his baby. That's really not what I was asking. Is there any way to know what Bain was into at that time? Leaving Romney out of it for a moment,what was the company itself doing then?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Bain and the 2000s buy-out boom

262 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 5:59:02am

BBIAB

I hate 1st thing in the morning international conference calls!

263 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:00:11am

The question is again whether his tenure and "success" at Bain Capital gives him any edge as a presidential candidate.

Do we want an economy where reasonable risk and prudent investments are rewarded with, for example, financial security for the middle classes and a chance to educate their children, or do we want one where reckless risk-taking is rewarded among the executives even when it fails, while the middle class frets and sweats its mortgage and student loan payments from month to month?

264 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:04:21am

re: #263 Expand Your Ground

Americans' love a winner.

However, many traditional Democratic party "base" elements have a long history of antipathy towards the robber-barons , as the term of years long ago would put it, and as such this whole Bain thing will be more useful to motivate turnout of that traditional Democratic base than it will be of turning off the current Mitt supporters.

265 darthstar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:06:24am

Texting while driving is bad for your corvette...apparently, the driver still had the phone in hand.

Image: 376941_10151027310647558_1543558506_n.jpg

266 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:09:04am

re: #265 darthstar

Texting while driving is bad for your corvette...apparently, the driver still had the phone in hand.

Image: 376941_10151027310647558_1543558506_n.jpg

A little bondo ,, some paint ,,, no problemo!!

267 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:11:11am

re: #264 freetoken

However, many traditional Democratic party "base" elements have a long history of antipathy towards the robber-barons

A lot of these Democrats used to work at companies that the "robber barons" chopped up and outsourced abroad. A lot more of them are struggling to meet a mortgage that is well above the value of their home while trying to help educate their children.

That is rather well-founded antipathy, and not just jealousy or "class warfare".

268 A Mom Anon  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:11:31am

re: #261 sattv4u2

So why all the hiding and skirting around the company's activities then? What I read at that link isn't really anything that seems out of line for what Bain does. I guess I'd like to know what happened to the actual companies after Bain got their hands int he mix. Did wages and benefits change for the employees,for better or worse? Did the companies stay in business?(I know toys r us and babies r us are still around,so is Guitar Center,but I have no idea how things changed for the actual people working there or at the other companies during that time) That's what I'm driving at.

269 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:11:44am

re: #266 sattv4u2

A little bondo ,, some paint ,,, no problemo!!

yes, it would make a nice serving tray for canapés...

270 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:15:39am

re: #268 A Mom Anon

See the earlier LGF entries from yesterday for examples.

271 Kronocide  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:15:52am

re: #258 freetoken

The complexities of "ownership" vs. "managmentent authority" are far too arcane to make a difference in an election battle where the electorate probably more concerned about whether Kim Kardashian will every bear Kanye's child.

As Ralphiboy points out, the problem is that Mitt has been selling his Presidential qualifications around how such a spectacular businessman he has been (and trying to ignore his tenure as MA governor with all the realities of Romneycare and abortion), and since Bain was indeed involved in chopping down American companies, moving business overseas, not to meantion owning a company dealing with aborted fetuses, that key Romney sales pitch now looks quite tarnished.

Kudos on a very concise assessment. In the big picture I don't think its a big deal if he was or wasn't 'at' Bain during that time. But it's how he presented himself.

He really hasn't pressed his experience as Mass Gov, which is weird. It likely has to do with the fact of his health care achievements there. The problem with his business success is the outsourcing and vulture capitalism accusations, which seem to have merit.

272 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:16:57am

re: #268 A Mom Anon

So why all the hiding and skirting around the company's activities then

Again, I haven't seen that. I suck at Googling but in less than half a minute each time I've found the response to some of your questions

What I read at that link isn't really anything that seems out of line for what Bain does
Exactly

,but I have no idea how things changed for the actual people working there or at the other companies during that time

I'm sure you could google the yearly records for those companies (the ones you mentioned plus the ones and more I listed in #260

273 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:18:02am

re: #262 sattv4u2

BBIAB

I hate 1st thing in the morning international conference calls!

And it starts

{sigh}

274 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:18:51am

re: #271 Kronocide

He really hasn't pressed his experience as Mass Gov, which is weird.

If he had done that he probably never would have gotten enough votes for the nomination. Mitt Romney was for mandated health coverage and abortion before he was against them.

275 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:23:03am

My co-workers Ford P/U won't start...teehee
Found
On
Road
Dead
Fucking
Out
Right
Dangerous

276 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:25:43am

Factcheck.org: Romney’s Bain Years: New Evidence, Same Conclusion

We would reassess our judgment should somebody come up with evidence that Romney took part in specific management decisions or had any active role (not just a title) at Bain after he left to head the Olympics. But nothing we’ve seen directly contradicts Romney’s statements — which he has certified as true under pain of federal prosecution — that he “has not had any active role” with Bain or “been involved in the operations” of Bain since then.

And we wish to note, we’re not alone in this judgement. Others include:

Fortune’s Dan Primack — who covers Wall Street “deals and dealmakers” — addressed the Mother Jones reporting in a July 2 article that came to the same conclusion we do. Primack’s more recent reporting we’ve already noted.
The Washington Post‘s Fact Checker, Glenn Kessler, rebutted the Boston Globe story in a July 12 piece. “Just because you are listed as an owner of shares does not mean you have a managerial role,” Kessler writes. We agree.
Before the Globe story broke, the Columbia Journalism Review’s Brendan Nyhan stated: “[T]he specific cases cited by the Obama campaign largely concern actions taken by those companies during a period in which Romney was not making operational decisions at the firm. Journalists must be clear about this distinction.” After the Globe story, CJR’s Greg Marx wrote “there’s less new in the Globe article than the attention it has drawn suggests.”
ABC News’ Devin Dwyer reported July 12, after the Globe‘s story appeared: “Team Obama does not provide any specific evidence to back up claims that Romney was actively managing Bain between 1999 and 2002.”

277 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:25:51am

re: #274 freetoken

If he had done that he probably never would have gotten enough votes for the nomination. Mitt Romney was for mandated health coverage and abortion before he was against them.

I think his original strategy was just to be a blank slate onto which every anti-Obama voter could project their image of the ideal candidate.

Unfortunately, the brutal GOP primary round sloshed a lot of mud onto that pristine canvas and showed that his contours are ever-changing.

278 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:28:32am

re: #276 Killgore Trout

Factcheck.org: Romney’s Bain Years: New Evidence, Same Conclusion

“Team Obama does not provide any specific evidence to back up claims that Romney was actively managing Bain between 1999 and 2002.”

And ain't that the wonderful thing: his name was on the letterhead, his reputation was on the (bottom) line.

Argue all you want about whether his role was active or passive, it is like trying to prove that he does or does not "coordinate" with his PAC...

279 freetoken  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:34:03am

re: #276 Killgore Trout

However, as some of us have noted this morning, that is not really the core of the problem

If Bain was involved in, say, closing down American based jobs and opening up ones in China, during the period when Romney was technically the owner but was not actively participating in the management, the question can simply be posed as this: Why didn't the owner of Bain capital object to "shipping jobs overseas"?

The answer: because he cared more for money than for Americans having jobs.

As a land owner, you know that you have some culpability if something goes wrong on your property, even if you were not actively engaged in whatever activity resulted in the wrong. Ownership implies responsibility. Trying to use technicalities (e.g., legal complexities of financial transfers) to shed one of that responsibility doesn't do much good for a political candidate.

280 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:34:40am

re: #276 Killgore Trout

Factcheck.org: Romney’s Bain Years: New Evidence, Same Conclusion

OUTRAGEOUS

How DARE FactCheck double check their facts to find out that in fact that the facts check out!!

/

281 darthstar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:36:32am

re: #275 Tommy's cone of shame

My co-workers Ford P/U won't start...teehee
Found
On
Road
Dead
Fucking
Out
Right
Dangerous

Grew up with Fords. Always hated those acronyms. But I never got into the Ford v. Chevy fights - though I did enjoy going to truck pulls and mud bogs to watch the fans beat the crap out of each other over which brand was better. Good times.

282 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:37:00am

I think this is regarding the testimony mentioned in the above Huffpo article...
Do Bain SEC documents suggest Mitt Romney is a criminal? (document embedded at link)

Moreover, there is another document — the 2002 Massachusetts Ballot Law Commission report that certified that Romney could run for governor. The findings in this report were the result of weeks of testimony and investigation. We have embedded the report below.
.....
The report showed that Romney remained on the board of three companies, two of which had Bain connections — Staples and LifeLike Co. The report said he returned to Massachusetts “to attend meetings at Staples,” but does not mention that he attended any meetings at Bain, even as it provides a long list of social events that brought him back to Massachusetts. One would think that if Romney was trying to prove continued links to Massachusetts, he would have emphasized he kept doing work for Bain.

In other words, an official state investigation concluded that Romney no longer worked at Bain as of early 1999, and also was working “12 hours a day, six days a week” on the Olympics from 1999 to 2002.

What Huffpo didn't tell us was the conclusion of the investigation, which is that Mitt left Bain in '99.

283 darthstar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:38:16am

re: #276 Killgore Trout

Factcheck.org: Romney’s Bain Years: New Evidence, Same Conclusion

New Evidence: Mitt's a liar but we're not going to say that because it would hurt the horse race excitement of the campaign.
Same Conclusion: Romney's fucked.

284 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:38:50am

Huffpo's headline " Mitt Romney’s Own 2002 Testimony Undermines Bain Departure Claim." is not accurate. His testimony and the investigation actually support Mitt's story.

285 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:39:16am

re: #282 Killgore Trout

again, it is not about culpability or smoking guns. it is about whether his record as a venture capitalist better qualifies him to run the country in the name of the whole electorate and not just the elite.

286 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:40:23am

re: #284 Killgore Trout

Kilgore, do you have any good recipes for rainbow trout? I usually make baked salmon for Friday night but thought I would try this instead for a change.

287 darthstar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:40:44am

re: #282 Killgore Trout

What Huffpo didn't tell us was the conclusion of the investigation, which is that Mitt left Bain in '99.

Just think...if Romney wins, he can claim he stopped being president of the United States in 2012 and left the country with a health care reform and saved GM.

288 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:44:17am

re: #286 Learned Mother of Zion

Kilgore, do you have any good recipes for rainbow trout? I usually make baked salmon for Friday night but thought I would try this instead for a change.

Either way, what time should I be there??
/

289 darthstar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:46:28am

re: #286 Learned Mother of Zion

Kilgore, do you have any good recipes for rainbow trout? I usually make baked salmon for Friday night but thought I would try this instead for a change.

I love grilling salmon...or any fish. The other night I bought a whole rock cod off the docks and slathered it with chili and ginger sauce, then wrapped it in foil and threw it on the grill...as Julia Child would say, it was "Fucking awesome"...for Salmon (or trout) I usually rub with olive oil, season with salt & pepper, and put on foil over a bed of thinly sliced onions and lemons to keep the moisture up. Grill slowly - under 300 - for about 15-20 minutes per pound and pull it before the fish is cooked through...it will be by the time you get it to the table.

Fish on Fridays? I didn't know you were Catholic. ///

290 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:48:23am

re: #289 darthstar

Fish on Fridays? I didn't know you were Catholic.

She's not

But she did stay at a Holiday Inn Express

291 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:50:05am

re: #287 darthstar

Just think...if Romney wins, he can claim he stopped being president of the United States in 2012 and left the country with a health care reform and saved GM.

If Romney wins will Alec Baldwin FINALLY move out of the country!??!

//

292 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:50:31am

re: #285 Expand Your Ground

again, it is not about culpability or smoking guns. it is about whether his record as a venture capitalist better qualifies him to run the country in the name of the whole electorate and not just the elite.

Then you should make your case honestly and accurately. You can make that case but throwing in easily debunked inaccuracies and misrepresenting documents and investigations only weakens your case.

293 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:50:36am

re: #289 darthstar

Fish on Fridays? I didn't know you were Catholic. ///

LOL, fish is a Sabbath meal first course.

Zedushka likes gefilte fish, but I think that's boring so I will also make some other kind of fish.

294 darthstar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:52:30am

Now those liberal hacks at Bloomberg are getting in on the act...

July 13 (Bloomberg) -- Mitt Romney is named as one of two managing members of Bain Capital Investors LLC in annual reports filed in Massachusetts as late as 2002, adding a new corporate entity to a growing number of Bain-related investments and funds that list the Republican presidential candidate as controlling the company three years after he said he left it.

295 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:52:46am

re: #281 darthstar

I loved every car I have owned, until I swear I will never buy another. I am currently happy with my VW, see how long the honeymoon will last.

296 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:53:29am

re: #286 Learned Mother of Zion

Kilgore, do you have any good recipes for rainbow trout? I usually make baked salmon for Friday night but thought I would try this instead for a change.

I think the best thing is to keep it simple. Keep the fish whole, stuff the cavity with whatever fresh herbs you have and throw them on the grill or fry them in butter and olive oil. Very easy and very forgiving fish to cook. If you overcook them a bit they're still nice and juicy.

297 darthstar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:55:03am

re: #293 Learned Mother of Zion

LOL, fish is a Sabbath meal first course.

Zedushka likes gefilte fish, but I think that's boring so I will also make some other kind of fish.

I didn't know anybody liked gefilte. I thought it was just some kind of permanent penance for killing Jesus. (not that I mind...I figure he died for his own damn sins...at least that's what the court records show)

298 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 6:58:20am

re: #296 Killgore Trout

I think the best thing is to keep it simple. Keep the fish whole, stuff the cavity with whatever fresh herbs you have and throw them on the grill or fry them in butter and olive oil. Very easy and very forgiving fish to cook. If you overcook them a bit they're still nice and juicy.

Can't bake it whole, I already bought the filet.

299 darthstar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:02:02am
300 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:02:31am

re: #298 Learned Mother of Zion

Can't bake it whole, I already bought the filet.

Then I'd pan fry. Put them skin side down first to get the skin crispy, then when you flip them the fat layer under the skin melts down into the filet. It's really easy.

301 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:03:33am

re: #300 Killgore Trout

Ditto, that is how I do it.

302 darthstar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:03:57am

Heh...even Nate Silver can't resist giving Drudge shit...

303 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:04:46am

re: #300 Killgore Trout

Then I'd pan fry. Put them skin side down first to get the skin crispy, then when you flip them the fat layer under the skin melts down into the filet. It's really easy.

OK, I'll try it.

304 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:05:23am

re: #292 Killgore Trout

Then you should make your case honestly and accurately. You can make that case but throwing in easily debunked inaccuracies and misrepresenting documents and investigations only weakens your case.

I am not the one making a case here. and I have stated repeatedly that his role with bain from 1999-2002 is fairly irrelevant, it is a matter of whether his tenure at Bain better qualifies him as a presidential candidate or not.

305 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:08:08am

Hmm...

Discussion and between Romney getting the liar/incompetent* conundrum and how to cook a filet. Coincidence? I think not.

* - In this case not really an incompetent option as compared to "being in charge without being in charge" which is not good form when being a candidate for CEO of the United States. Especially when the firm in question was investing in Chinese outsourcing companies and other activities that belie the candidates *current* espoused beliefs on policy.

306 Kronocide  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:09:52am

re: #292 Killgore Trout

Then you should make your case honestly and accurately.

So should Mitt Romney.

307 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:14:48am

re: #306 Kronocide

So should Mitt Romney.

Agreed. However the continued exaggerated and inaccurate accusations against Mitt only give him cover and discredit the accusers.

308 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:15:23am

Good morning Lizards from overcast (not Comcast) Philadelphia.

Not sure what the excitement was, but when walking to work I went by a group of 18-20 Transit Police and a K-9 unit at the entrance to the train station. Something got enforcement stirred up. (There's a sub-station just down the tunnel, so usually there are 2-3 Transit Police cars about and maybe 3-5 officers.)

Feline Overlord in hyper-cranky mode this morning. Almost happy to get out of the apartment.

309 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:15:45am

Twitter is all a-twitter with rumors that Mitt intends to ask Condi Rice to be his VP.

Totally will not happen because:
1. Condi has repeatedly said she is NOT INTERESTED.
2. Condi is too pro-choicy and gay-ey for the GOP.

310 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:15:55am

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

Mayhaps I'll stop by Staples and Sports Authority and give BAIN a few dead presidents!!

311 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:20:16am

re: #309 Learned Mother of Zion

Twitter is all a-twitter with rumors that Mitt intends to ask Condi Rice to be his VP.

Totally will not happen because:
1. Condi has repeatedly said she is NOT INTERESTED.
2. Condi is too pro-choicy and gay-ey for the GOP.

Not to mention that if you put Condi on the ticket a lot of the dog-whistle activity for the campaign and superpacs will look doubly hypocritical.

312 Digital Display  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:21:01am

re: #304 Expand Your Ground

I am not the one making a case here. and I have stated repeatedly that his role with bain from 1999-2002 is fairly irrelevant, it is a matter of whether his tenure at Bain better qualifies him as a presidential candidate or not.

Well..On just qualifications on his Resume.. He was a Governor, His dad was a Gov. And he saved the Olympics from the most shameful period ever seen here in the U.S. He went on to make a shit load of money being a CEO and an Investment Capitalist.
He has pretty much been successful in all his endeavors. The whole thing about investments and moving jobs to China has me troubled as a point in the election. Who the hell in the USA hasn't outsourced jobs to India or China? ( We just built a new plant in Singapore )
I have my own reasons why I'm voting for Obama but Mitt should not be taken lightly. IMHO

313 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:23:47am

Peaceful protest update...
2 injured as Occupy L.A. protesters battle police in downtown L.A.

A monthly arts celebration in downtown Los Angeles was marred by violence as hundreds of Occupy L.A. protesters skirmished with police, at least two of whom were injured, authorities said today.

Officers in riot gear were pelted with rocks and bottles and an unspecified number of people were arrested in the melee, which broke out around 8:40 p.m. Thursday during ArtWalk activities in the area of Fifth and Spring streets, said Officer Karen Rayner of the Los Angeles Police Department's Media Relations section.
...
An ambulance was called to take a female patient to a hospital after she was struck by a skateboard, but Rayner did not know if the victim was a police officer or a civilian.

Several people suffered skin welts caused by non-lethal rounds, they told a news photographer at the scene, who reported that broken glass littered the intersection of Fifth and Spring streets.

314 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:23:57am

re: #312 Digital Display

He has an impressive record, especially his health care initiative in Massachusetts, but that does not seem to be part of his sales pitch.

And it is clear that he will have to cave into the extreme right of his party on social issues if he wants to be allowed maintain any sort of moderate economic and tax policy.

315 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:28:20am

Morning all!

Cuteness and Warm Fuzzy for the morning.

Have you had your coffeee?

316 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:29:04am

re: #309 Learned Mother of Zion

Twitter is all a-twitter with rumors that Mitt intends to ask Condi Rice to be his VP.

Totally will not happen because:
1. Condi has repeatedly said she is NOT INTERESTED.
2. Condi is too pro-choicy and gay-ey for the GOP.

3-Dr. Rice is NOT STUPID.

317 Digital Display  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:34:04am

re: #315 ggt

Morning all!

Cuteness and Warm Fuzzy for the morning.

Have you had your coffeee?

Oh yea! I found out an hour ago that it was Friday the 13th. I came home to work.. Freaks me out.. I don't work on friday the13th, Oct 14th, Valentines day or my Birthday and all the usual Holidays..
Good Morning ggt.

318 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:34:46am

re: #275 Tommy's cone of shame

My co-workers Ford P/U won't start...teehee
Found
On
Road
Dead
Fucking
Out
Right
Dangerous

Found
On
Road
Dead

319 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:35:23am

re: #317 Digital Display

Oh yea! I found out an hour ago that it was Friday the 13th. I came home to work.. Freaks me out.. I don't work on friday the13th, Oct 14th, Valentines day or my Birthday and all the usual Holidays..
Good Morning ggt.

Science! not Superstition

SSDD, don't worry.

320 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:42:31am
How big the pile of contradictory documents has to get before FactCheck.org resumes doing its job is anybody’s guess, but the mainstream media needs, at this point, to emerge from the weeds and hold Mitt Romney accountable for what these documents prove beyond any doubt. Whether he was involved in day-to-day operations, or in specific deals, these documents prove that Mitt Romney was responsible for everything Bain Capital did from 1999 until at least 2002.

Mitt Romney was in Salt Lake City working on the Olympics, not the dark side of the moon. If any reasonable person chooses to believe that he could not have directed his Bain employees to abstain from investing in outsourcing and offshoring companies, then let him answer that question. He’s running for President of the United States, a position which will require him to take responsibility for the things he signs, even if people get mad at him later.

321 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:46:32am

re: #320 goddamnedfrank

"He’s running for President of the United States, a position which will require him to take responsibility for the things he signs, even if people get mad at him later."

This is exactly what he is calling into question

322 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:54:39am

re: #320 goddamnedfrank

It should tell you something that none of the fact checking organizations are going to rate these new claims as true. There might be more wiggle room if there was a split decision or some level of nuance but the claims are simply not true. Dkos is also railing against the fact checkers this morning. People are just creating their own alternate reality. It's stupid and embarrassing.

323 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:56:24am
324 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:56:55am

re: #322 Killgore Trout

Dkos is also railing against the fact checkers this morning. People are just creating their own alternate reality. It's stupid and embarrassing.

Because these people are looking for a smoking gun or for some felonious criminal intent.

That is not the case, it is just a matter of Romney demonstrating his leadership qualities. It is up to us to decidce whether or not they would be the best for the Executive Branch.

325 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:57:26am

re: #284 Killgore Trout

Huffpo's headline " Mitt Romney’s Own 2002 Testimony Undermines Bain Departure Claim." is not accurate. His testimony and the investigation actually support Mitt's story.

Except where he says at the time he was only planning a temporary leave of absence.

When I left my employer in Massachusetts in February of 1999 to accept the Olympic assignment, I left on the basis of a leave of absence, indicating that I, by virtue of that title, would return at the end of the Olympics to my employment at Bain Capital, but subsequently decided not to do so and entered into a departure agreement with my former partners, I use that in the colloquial sense, not legal sense, but my former partners,

Also:

In addition, the Romney campaign's response does not address whether by sitting on LifeLike's board until 2001, Romney's 2011 disclosure form statement that he had "not been involved in the operations of any Bain Capital entity in any way" was false.

Basically, you've gotten everything exactly backwards. Romney's 2002 testimony not only undermines his most recent accounts of his state of mind when accepting the Olympic gig, but they also poke holes in his 2011 FEC statement.

326 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 7:58:59am

re: #322 Killgore Trout

It should tell you something that none of the fact checking organizations are going to rate these new claims as true.

You have a crystal ball that can see into the future? Making absolutist predictions is the sign of a diminished intellect.

327 sattv4u2  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:06:37am

re: #318 ggt

Found
On
Road
Dead

Fix
Or
Repair
Daily

328 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:08:06am

re: #327 sattv4u2

Fix
Or
Repair
Daily

Morning Satt.

329 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:10:28am

re: #327 sattv4u2

Fix
Or
Repair
Daily

A colleague had an Alfa Romeo, for which I devised

A
Lean,
Fine
Automobile

Requires
Only
Major
Expensive
Overhauls

330 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:16:39am

New Yorker: What’s True and False in Obama’s Bain Attacks

The debate over Mitt Romney’s tenure at Bain Capital is strange and discomfiting because it is a nonsense argument within a nonsense argument. The original nonsense argument is Mitt Romney’s claim that his business experience lends him unique insight into solving the economic crisis. In fact, the considerable skills Romney displayed in business tell you nothing about whether his economic policies would address the recession. Rather than make that complicated point, President Obama and his allies instead have attacked Romney’s record itself. And what they’re saying is, on the basis of the facts available to us, untrue.
...
Romney is attempting to portray his business experience as “creating jobs,” but he was actually in the business of creating wealth. Obama has every right to expose that contradiction. He doesn’t have a right to make things up in the process.

331 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:17:25am

now you know:

Although the common stereotype is that women are the emo-est gender, anyone who’s ever spent any time around any man knows that there are certain common subjects — income, height, sexual prowess, fighting ability (or lack thereof), hair (or lack thereof), favorite sports teams, mamas. etc — that have the potential to turn us into walking, talking, slobbering Drake albums.

and there is more

332 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:17:59am

Shot-gun weddings legal in Britain?

Opponents have warned that criminalizing forced marriage altogether could deter victims from coming forward, but the Government has announced an extra £500,000 of funding to help identify and support those affected. As Cameron said, “Passing a law isn't enough, we have got to make sure there is proper training for the schools and the police, we want to make sure we put resources into allowing women who want to escape forced marriages to have somewhere else to go if their family rejects them.”

333 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:21:07am
334 Aye Pod  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:22:31am

Until we see actual video footage of Romney signing executive orders while glugging a bottle of Jack Daniels and laughing in an evil villain kind of way, we must assume complete innocence of anything that happened within the company of which he was boss//

335 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:23:28am

re: #315 ggt

Morning all!

Cuteness and Warm Fuzzy for the morning.

Have you had your coffeee?

Did anyone click the link and look at the picture?

You don't want to miss it.

336 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:24:15am

re: #334 Aye Pod

Until we see actual video footage of Romney signing executive orders while glugging a bottle of Jack Daniels and laughing in an evil villain kind of way, we must assume complete innocence of anything that happened within the company of which he was boss//

JD is too cheap for him.

He'd have one of those "limited edition only if you know the owner of the distillery" whiskeys.

337 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:30:18am

re: #336 ggt

JD is too cheap for him.

He'd have one of those "limited edition only if you know the owner of the distillery" whiskeys.

Mormons don't drink alcohol.

338 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:30:59am

re: #337 Learned Mother of Zion

Mormons don't drink alcohol.

bs

perhaps "in name only"

339 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:31:20am

re: #337 Learned Mother of Zion

Mormons don't drink alcohol.

Why should you always take two Mormons with you when you go fishing?

-If you only take one along, he'll drink all your booze.

340 GunstarGreen  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:34:42am

re: #323 ggt

HAHAHA!

This idea was pretty much the basis for Charles P. Pierce's Idiot America.

The three Great Premises of Idiot America:

* Any theory is valid if it sells books, soaks up ratings, or otherwise moves units.
* Anything can be true if someone says it loudly enough.
* Fact is that which enough people believe. Truth is determined by how fervently they believe it.

It's a pretty good read, detailing some recent media farces and a brief history of American cranks, and how crankery has become a mainstream thing.

341 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:37:15am

What I'm seeing in this whole Romney Bain thing is that people are making two different arguments, as in:
1. Mitt was sole stockholder, CEO, President, and on some documents, Managing Director from 1999 to 2002. This we know from said documentation is true. And...
2. Though Mitt was listed on legal documents with these titles, they didn't really mean anything because he wasn't coming in to work during that time to hands-on manage the details of his company. This, too, appears to be true generally though it is documented that he attended board meetings and had some other dealings with a few companies that Bain bought/owned.

If one is arguing from point 1, Mitt is guilty as charged, facts are in. As his titles claim, he was responsible for the actions of his company regardless of his minute-by-minute involvement with those investments he now wants to gain as much distance away from as possible.

If arguing point 2, you can question minutia and semantics to argue the entirely unprovable-either-way claim that because Mitt wasn't making the daily decisions then the details of those decisions cannot be placed at his feet. This is the argument I see the fact checkers making.

Both attributes can be true. It comes down to interpreting the idea/meaning of "responsibility."

342 blueraven  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:37:22am

re: #330 Killgore Trout

New Yorker: What’s True and False in Obama’s Bain Attacks

And:

When he officially stepped down, Romney remained the titular head of Bain Capital, legally responsible but not making any managerial decisions.

And how can he prove that he was not making any managerial decisions? He was drawing a salary of at least 100K in addition to what he was receiving from his investments in the firm. What was he being paid for?

343 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:38:52am

re: #338 ggt

bs

perhaps "in name only"

You think that Mormons generally drink?

344 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:40:16am

re: #341 allegro

Both attributes can be true. It comes down to interpreting the idea/meaning of "responsibility."

If you're the 100% sole owner of a company then who does the buck stop with?

345 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:41:49am

re: #342 blueraven

And:

And how can he prove that he was not making any managerial decisions? He was drawing a salary of at least 100K in addition to what he was receiving from his investments in the firm. What was he being paid for?

Irrelevant. he claims that his tenure at BC proves he can "create jobs". He can most certainly create wealth, and if you still believe in trickle-down economics, namely that the wealth created by a few for a few will trickle down to prosperity for all, then Mitt is your man.

346 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:44:06am

re: #344 goddamnedfrank

If you're the 100% sole owner of a company then who does the buck stop with?

That's certainly my definition.

347 GunstarGreen  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:45:33am

re: #341 allegro

Both attributes can be true. It comes down to interpreting the idea/meaning of "responsibility."

No, what it comes down to is that media outlets are afraid of coming out and saying what everyone with even a single shred of sense knows: The guy who's name is all over the legal documents, who owns the company, and who collects a hefty salary from that company is responsible for what that company does to bring in the cash that it pays him with.

Because they are scared to death of being hit with that reputation-destroying label of biased. We have to present "both sides" to be "fair and balanced", even when one of the sides is transparently a giant pile of rancid horseshit.

348 Gus  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:46:09am

re: #334 Aye Pod

Until we see actual video footage of Romney signing executive orders while glugging a bottle of Jack Daniels and laughing in an evil villain kind of way, we must assume complete innocence of anything that happened within the company of which he was boss//

How dare you!

[Faints]

349 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:46:40am

re: #343 SanFranciscoZionist

You think that Mormons generally drink?

I've known a few.

350 Gus  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:47:45am

re: #344 goddamnedfrank

If you're the 100% sole owner of a company then who does the buck stop with?

Only if you're a Democrat and/or a liberal. I have an idea. Willard is a man of God. Maybe he should just spill his guts and ask God for forgiveness. Praise the lord I have sinned!

//

351 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:48:48am

re: #349 ggt

I've known a few.

I'm sure they're out there, but I've also known plenty who don't. On this, I'm happy to give Romney the benefit of any doubt.

352 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:50:28am

re: #347 GunstarGreen

The guy whose name is all over the legal documents, who owns the company, and who collects a hefty salary from that company is responsible for what that company does to bring in the cash that it pays him with.

That is the job of a President. he cannot begin to be involved in the day-to-day running of every branch of government, he has to be able to pick the right people to help him make decisions,

And to stand up for them, regardless of his "level of involvement".

353 Mattand  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:51:51am

re: #347 GunstarGreen

No, what it comes down to is that media outlets are afraid of coming out and saying what everyone with even a single shred of sense knows: The guy who's name is all over the legal documents, who owns the company, and who collects a hefty salary from that company is responsible for what that company does to bring in the cash that it pays him with.

Because they are scared to death of being hit with that reputation-destroying label of biased. We have to present "both sides" to be "fair and balanced", even when one of the sides is transparently a giant pile of rancid horseshit.

This is especially ironic given that biased reporting is Fox News' incredibly lucrative business model.

354 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:51:57am

re: #334 Aye Pod

The attempt to paint Romney in teflon isn't really flying for a reason, it's too obviously concocted to maintain the illusion of a tight horserace. People, at least subconsciously understand the concepts of personal integrity, ownership and responsibility and it grates to see such a blatant violation of all three at once.

Can you imagine the apoplectic response from the right if Obama's signature was found on federal legal documents regarding a company he owned purchasing shares in a company that disposed of aborted fetuses? The entire cast of Fox and Friends would literally and simultaneously shit whole cats live on TV.

355 Mattand  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:55:28am

re: #354 goddamnedfrank

The entire cast of Fox and Friends would literally and simultaneously shit whole cats live on TV.

Unsurprisingly, said ass-cats would put on a more intelligent show.

356 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:56:44am

re: #355 Mattand

Unsurprisingly, said ass-cats would put on a more intelligent show.

Is that really hard to do? No disrespect intended to the ass-cats but Fox and Friends is probably one of the least intelligent shows out there. And yeah if it came out that Obama had the kind of shady business background Romney does, we would be hearing all about it.

357 GunstarGreen  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:57:09am

re: #354 goddamnedfrank

The attempt to paint Romney in teflon isn't really flying for a reason, it's too obviously concocted to maintain the illusion of a tight horserace.

Yes, this too. One has to always keep in mind that news media is a business, and like any other business it has to make money. They make their money from ad sales, and they sell ads based on viewership/readership. Giving up the horse race this early in the game by openly admitting that one of the presidential hopefuls is a complete scumbag that profited by destroying the very jobs he claims he'll create would completely kill their several months of planned election coverage. Nobody will tune in or pick up a paper to hear about a race that only has one realistic candidate. It is in their vested financial interest to keep Romney in the game.

358 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:57:34am

re: #356 HappyWarrior

Is that really hard to do? No disrespect intended to the ass-cats but Fox and Friends is probably one of the least intelligent shows out there.

It's all about whats-her-face's legs.

359 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:57:36am

If Obama can be blamed for ACORN and Reverend Wright, surely Romney could be held responsible for the actions of a company that he owned. No??

360 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:57:49am

re: #358 ggt

It's all about whats-her-face's legs.

Gretchen Carlson?

361 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:58:34am

re: #360 HappyWarrior

Gretchen Carlson?

I can't keep the barbie dolls and their shows straight.

Is she the blonde?

362 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:59:07am

re: #361 ggt

I can't keep the barbie dolls and their shows straight.

Is she the blonde?

Aren't they all blonde?

363 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 8:59:52am

re: #362 HappyWarrior

Aren't they all blonde?

No, there is one that isn't.

What I will say, is that there is no Judy Woodruff quality journalist on FOX.

364 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:00:24am

re: #361 ggt

I can't keep the barbie dolls and their shows straight.

Is she the blonde?

She's the one with the low cut blouse and short skirt...

365 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:00:41am

re: #364 What, me worry?

She's the one with the low cut blouse and short skirt...

Yeah, that one.

366 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:00:45am

re: #363 ggt

No, there is one that isn't.

What I will say, is that there is no Judy Woodruff quality journalist on FOX.

Yeah Fox's problem to me really isn't their bias, it's that they let said bias get in the way of reporting the news. They're craptastic journalists.

367 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:01:38am

re: #359 What, me worry?

If Obama can be blamed for ACORN and Reverend Wright, surely Romney could be held responsible for the actions of a company that he owned. No??

Yeah but Romney gets to play by different rules than the rest of us because he's a spoiled little brat.

368 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:01:42am

re: #366 HappyWarrior

Yeah Fox's problem to me really isn't their bias, it's that they let said bias get in the way of reporting the news. They're craptastic journalists.

They use subliminal tools that aren't so subliminal. Except if you are a retired white male living in Nebraska.

369 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:02:09am

re: #359 What, me worry?

If Obama can be blamed for ACORN and Reverend Wright, surely Romney could be held responsible for the actions of a company that he owned. No??

No! And don't quote him either. It's not fair!

370 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:03:54am

It's like Sarah Palin --"every man's fantasy wife" saying exactly what he wants to hear.

Remember that video of the guy talking about Conservative Values. He actually said that about Sarah.

/*spit*

Freakin' James Bond wannabes, IMHO.

371 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:04:24am

re: #369 wrenchwench

No! And don't quote him either. It's not fair!

Remember when he and his campaign basically bragged about twisting Obama's records speaking about McCain on the economy to make it seem that Obama was saying the economy was a losing issue for him. Now, these same guys are demanding that Obama apologize for the attacks on Romney's record at Bain. Truman was right, can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

372 Mattand  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:06:16am

re: #366 HappyWarrior

Yeah Fox's problem to me really isn't their bias, it's that they let said bias get in the way of reporting the news. They're craptastic journalists.

The problem is they're not honest about the bias. I would have so much less an issue with Fox if they would just admit they're in the bag for the GOP. The bald faced lying about being fair and balanced is idiotic and insulting.

Has Romney even given an interview to any of the other "liberal" networks in the last few months?

373 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:07:28am

bbl

374 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:07:58am

This really is a pattern with Mitt. I remember a recently reported lawsuit he'd settled after being sued for selling a drugged horse for like $125,000. The new owner discovers the dressage horse had been majorly drugged and was, in fact, lame.

The Romney spokesperson sez "the trainer did it" and so the Romneys can be absolved of responsibility for the fraud. The "only if they'd know it would never have happened" defense.

375 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:08:38am

I don't know what that NY mag is talking about. Charles just linked the Mother Jones article clearly showing that Romney was in charge of the company while it was investing in companies that outsourced in 1998.

The Washington Post said Bain has been doing this for 15 years prior to that.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Mitt Romney’s financial company, Bain Capital, invested in a series of firms that specialized in relocating jobs done by American workers to new facilities in low-wage countries like China and India.

During the nearly 15 years that Romney was actively involved in running Bain, a private equity firm that he founded, it owned companies that were pioneers in the practice of shipping work from the United States to overseas call centers and factories making computer components, according to filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

376 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:09:52am

re: #370 ggt

It's like Sarah Palin --"every man's fantasy wife" saying exactly what he wants to hear.

Remember that video of the guy talking about Conservative Values. He actually said that about Sarah.

/*spit*

I think she was supposed to just serve as a blank canvas onto which voters could project their own image of the Ideal Conservative Candidate. it would have worked, but it would've involved Sarah keeping her mouth shut and just looking good standing next to McCain.

But that was not her style at all...

377 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:13:33am

I saw an Obama ad last night that mentioned Bain in conjunction with job creation. Obama is 100% justified in bringing this up. It's the truth and it's not obscure, like the ridiculous attacks on Obama's character.

Romney can't have it both ways. He either knew about the outsourcing and didn't care or didn't know about the outsourcing and that would make him a shitty CEO. Take your pick.

378 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:14:38am

re: #375 What, me worry?

I don't know what that NY mag is talking about. Charles just linked the Mother Jones article clearly showing that Romney was in charge of the company while it was investing in companies that outsourced in 1998.

The Washington Post said Bain has been doing this for 15 years prior to that.

It doesn't surprise me. We're to believe that Bain started investing in companies that exported jobs as soon as Romney left?

379 gwangung  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:15:03am

re: #377 What, me worry?

Romney can't have it both ways. He either knew about the outsourcing and didn't care or didn't know about the outsourcing and that would make him a shitty CEO. Take your pick.

Dead on.

380 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:15:38am

I love living in a society where very serious people can outsource their critical thinking skills to a "fact checking" website and not feel an ounce of shame or embarrassment over it.

Hilarious.

381 Patricia Kayden  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:15:51am

From the Huff Post article.

[Link: www.sec.gov...]

How does Romney explain that he is listed as the sole shareholder, sole director, Chief Executive Officer and President of Bain Investors VI and thus is the controlling person of Bain Investors in 2001 in the company's SEC filing?

Would love to see his tax returns between 1999 and 2002 for more light on this issue.

382 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:16:20am

re: #377 What, me worry?

I saw an Obama ad last night that mentioned Bain in conjunction with job creation. Obama is 100% justified in bringing this up. It's the truth and it's not obscure, like the ridiculous attacks on Obama's character.

Romney can't have it both ways. He either knew about the outsourcing and didn't care or didn't know about the outsourcing and that would make him a shitty CEO. Take your pick.

Exactly, he's selling his experience at Bain as proof that he's a job creator and it seems that he's actually benefited from other people losing theirs. That's not what people like hearing in any economy especially a struggling one.

383 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:17:22am

re: #381 Patricia Kayden

From the Huff Post article.

[Link: www.sec.gov...]

Would love to see his tax returns between 1999 and 2002 for more light on this issue.

Hmmm... he hasn't been real forthcoming about that. I wonder why...

Could it be....

S A T A N????

384 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:17:22am

re: #377 What, me worry?

I saw an Obama ad last night that mentioned Bain in conjunction with job creation. Obama is 100% justified in bringing this up. It's the truth and it's not obscure, like the ridiculous attacks on Obama's character.

Romney can't have it both ways. He either knew about the outsourcing and didn't care or didn't know about the outsourcing and that would make him a shitty CEO. Take your pick.

You forgot option 3: he knew about the outsourcing and he totally approved it because it would mean big profits for the shareholders (namely himself).

385 gwangung  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:19:53am

re: #384 Learned Mother of Zion

You forgot option 3: he knew about the outsourcing and he totally approved it because it would mean big profits for the shareholders (namely himself).

And STILL approves of it.

386 darthstar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:20:09am

Hey everyone...I'm one nervous fucker right now. Got an offer that expires today and a second face-to-face with another company. Like Company #2 more than #1...better chance of poaching my current employees in the coming months to come work for me. Want to counter on the first (in part, to buy time) but don't want to burn that bridge. Any advice is appreciated.

387 darthstar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:21:04am

This is why Custer's last words were, "At least we don't have to go home through North Dakota."

388 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:21:54am

re: #386 darthstar

Hey everyone...I'm one nervous fucker right now. Got an offer that expires today and a second face-to-face with another company. Like Company #2 more than #1...better chance of poaching my current employees in the coming months to come work for me. Want to counter on the first (in part, to buy time) but don't want to burn that bridge. Any advice is appreciated.

When you go for the face-to-face today, be sure to tell them you have had another offer, they may make a counter-offer on the spot.

389 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:22:12am

re: #382 HappyWarrior

Exactly, he's selling his experience at Bain as proof that he's a job creator and it seems that he's actually benefited from other people losing theirs. That's not what people like hearing in any economy especially a struggling one.

And I said above, there's nothing illegal about outsourcing. Something, if people recall, is part and parcel of the Bush legacy (but we're not supposed to mention that). Lots of companies did it, but it was never a popular move. We've lost entire industries to outsourcing. Namely telephone customer services for technology/internet companies, national banking and most large corporations like Best Buy, Home Depot, etc.

With that said, I don't think Obama should spend an inordinate amount of time on it. The way he's doing it, working it into his focus on jobs, is good.

390 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:23:23am

Where's that darn links button ... I can't see whether this has been posted already.

Mitt’s story doesn’t add up
What Romney said a decade ago makes a lot more sense than what he's saying now

This is the last paragraph. Read it all to see how he reaches this conclusion.

The point here isn’t that Romney was running Bain Capital and making all of its key decisions from 1999 to 2002. But the story he tells now absolves him of all responsibility for anything and everything Bain did in those years. This would be reasonable if Romney had forged a clear and total break with the company in 1999, but he didn’t. His statement to the ballot law commission 10 years ago was supported by just about all of his actions between 1999 and 2002: Until the final few months of his Olympic tenure, Romney’s break from Bain was supposed to temporary.

391 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:24:51am

re: #389 What, me worry?

I don't think Obama should spend an inordinate amount of time on it. The way he's doing it, working it into his focus on jobs, is good.

The bigger question is simply "What kid of economy do we want?"

Do we want one where prudent risk-taking and sound investments are rewarded, especially in the form of financial & housing security for the middle and working classes, or do we want one where reckless speculation is rewarded even if it fails and the middle and working classes are left to sweat out how to make their mortgatge payments and put their kids through school?

392 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:27:07am

re: #386 darthstar

I wish you well!

393 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:28:45am

re: #391 Expand Your Ground

The bigger question is simply "What kid of economy do we want?"

Do we want one where prudent risk-taking and sound investments are rewarded, especially in the form of financial & housing security for the middle and working classes, or do we want one where reckless speculation is rewarded even if it fails and the middle and working classes are left to sweat out how to make their mortgatge payments and put their kids through school?

You mean like between the years of 2004 and 2008?

You left out being made bankrupt by healthcare costs.

Romney, being head of a company that at least promoted outsourcing is not going to play well on the Republican street. They may still vote for him, but it's part of the reason they don't like this guy.

394 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:37:29am

re: #390 wrenchwench

Mitt’s story doesn’t add up
What Romney said a decade ago makes a lot more sense than what he's saying now

This is the last paragraph. Read it all to see how he reaches this conclusion.

Good find. So far the fact checkers haven't addressed the ballot commission testimony, any it demands an entire revisiting of Romney's stated history. His 2011 declaration to the federal election commission now appears to be totally false with regards to when he really broke with Bain. If he was fully intending to return to Bain, as he said in 2002, then it makes sense to believe that he kept himself dialed in with regards to the key decision making process at Bain. Hell, even if he lied in 2002 and never intended to return we now know that it was his name signed under oath and therefore his reputation and neck on the line if anything went south, therefore one would have to believe he was nominally "involved."

I think it was the Stericycle deal that made him demand the retroactive departure from Bain, and nothing to do with outsourcing. Outsourcing wasn't that huge a political albatross in 2002, compared with today anyway. However,once he'd decided to seek the GOP nomination for the Mass governorship and saw national ambitions beyond that he felt the need to distance himself as far from Stericycle, and their disposal of aborted fetuses, as possible.

395 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:42:04am

re: #394 goddamnedfrank

... retroactive departure...

Do overs?

396 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:43:54am

re: #389 What, me worry?

And I said above, there's nothing illegal about outsourcing. Something, if people recall, is part and parcel of the Bush legacy (but we're not supposed to mention that). Lots of companies did it, but it was never a popular move. We've lost entire industries to outsourcing. Namely telephone customer services for technology/internet companies, national banking and most large corporations like Best Buy, Home Depot, etc.

With that said, I don't think Obama should spend an inordinate amount of time on it. The way he's doing it, working it into his focus on jobs, is good.

Of course it's not illegal and nor should it be but it does question his ability to create jobs for Americans which is what he's sold his time at Bain as. I think Obama's handled this the smart way. I expect him to stump for his Jobs bill soon and use that as a contrast with Romney whom I believe has not offered anything close to that.

397 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:43:55am

re: #394 goddamnedfrank

So far the fact checkers haven't addressed the ballot commission testimony, any it demands an entire revisiting of Romney's stated history.

Yes they have: Do Bain SEC documents suggest Mitt Romney is a criminal?

The report also stated: “The Respondent remained actively employed at Bain Capital until January 1, 1999, at which time he left to take the position of President and Chief Executive Officer of the Salt Lake Organizing Committee for the 2002 Winter Olympic Games.”

The report showed that Romney remained on the board of three companies, two of which had Bain connections — Staples and LifeLike Co. The report said he returned to Massachusetts “to attend meetings at Staples,” but does not mention that he attended any meetings at Bain, even as it provides a long list of social events that brought him back to Massachusetts. One would think that if Romney was trying to prove continued links to Massachusetts, he would have emphasized he kept doing work for Bain.

In other words, an official state investigation concluded that Romney no longer worked at Bain as of early 1999, and also was working “12 hours a day, six days a week” on the Olympics from 1999 to 2002. That also would seem to trump the SEC filings.

TPM is also hyping the story this morning but neither TPM or Huffpo, unlike the WaPo fact checker, link to the documents for reference. What Huffpo and TPM don't tell us is the results of the investigation.

398 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:46:09am

re: #394 goddamnedfrank

Good find. So far the fact checkers haven't addressed the ballot commission testimony, any it demands an entire revisiting of Romney's stated history. His 2011 declaration to the federal election commission now appears to be totally false with regards to when he really broke with Bain. If he was fully intending to return to Bain, as he said in 2002, then it makes sense to believe that he kept himself dialed in with regards to the key decision making process at Bain. Hell, even if he lied in 2002 and never intended to return we now know that it was his name signed under oath and therefore his reputation and neck on the line if anything went south, therefore one would have to believe he was nominally "involved."

I think it was the Stericycle deal that made him demand the retroactive departure from Bain, and nothing to do with outsourcing. Outsourcing wasn't that huge a political albatross in 2002, compared with today anyway. However,once he'd decided to seek the GOP nomination for the Mass governorship and saw national ambitions beyond that he felt the need to distance himself as far from Stericycle, and their disposal of aborted fetuses, as possible.

Romney certainly had a hand in making this a big deal. If he hadn't had conflicting interests over when he really left, things would be much more clear. To run for Gov., he wanted to have maintained as many relationships in Mass. as possible while in Utah, but to run for Pres., he wants all of those ties to have been cut. By deciding in 2002 that he wanted to retroactively have left in 1999, he could try to have it both ways. Makes perfect sense to rich business people, but they're having a hard time explaining it to those riffraff voters.

399 gwangung  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:47:21am

re: #397 Killgore Trout

Yes they have: Do Bain SEC documents suggest Mitt Romney is a criminal?

TPM is also hyping the story this morning but neither TPM of Huffpo, unlike the WaPo fact checker, link to the documents for reference. What Huffpo and TPM don't tell us is the results of the investigation.

You have no credibility talking about this. You have no idea what the definition of CEO, Managing Director or President mean. You're letting the talking heads do your thinking for your.

Stop being an idiot.

400 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:49:14am

There is no smoking gun here, nothing prosecutable. Just a glaring discrepancy between what mitt claims he can do and what he has actually done.

401 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:49:23am

Bryan Fischer drools DERP, totally loses his shit over Condi Rice rumor:

Ms. Rice [It's DR Rice you doofus!], as appealing as she might be at first glance, is pro-abortion, pro-gay, pro-affirmative action, and pro-green. In other words, she would make a terrible choice as a running mate for a candidate who already suffers from a serious enthusiasm deficit with the base.

402 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:50:12am

Episcopalians are now a Satanic Church apparently, Presbyterians close behind.

Episcopalian leaders continue to guide their denomination into the abyss -- and no doubt, the Presbyterians (PCUSA) will soon follow.

The Episcopal denomination's General Convention voted this week to make it illegal to "discriminate against anyone." Specifically, that means it is now illegal to "... bar from the priesthood people who were born into one gender and live as another or who do not identify themselves as male or female."

Readers of my columns and other pieces may remember my prediction that this fast train into the pit would not stop just with practicing homosexuals. It will inevitably lead all the way to pedophilia.

I cannot help but think of Jesus' words: "Wide is the gate that leads to destruction." Those words became poignant when I read the jubilant quotefrom one of the Episcopal leaders:

It is not just a good day for transgender Episcopalians and their friends, families and allies. It is a good day for all of us who are part of a church willing to take the risk to continue to draw the circle wider as we work to live out our call to make God's inclusive love known to the whole human family," the Rev. Susan Russell, a deputy from the Diocese of Los Angeles and an activist who supported the legislation, said in a statement.

That wide "circle" is certainly the wide gate that Jesus talked about. It is the place where people can enter with all their baggage, but then they proceed to go over the cliff of eternal destruction. If this decision doesn't cause Bible-believing Anglicans (who represent 90 percent of Anglicans worldwide) to sever ties with the Episcopal Church, I don't know what will.

For years, some of us have said that the Episcopal Church has ceased to be the Church of Jesus Christ. But if you're no longer the Church of Jesus Christ, then whose church are you?

There are only two ways -- God's and Satan's. There are only two kingdom's -- God's and Satan's. And there are only two churches -- God's and Satan's. For any faithful worshipper of Jesus Christ, there can be no doubt as to which camp the Episcopal Church now belongs.

403 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:51:10am

re: #401 Learned Mother of Zion

Bryan Fischer drools DERP, totally loses his shit over Condi Rice rumor:

I would submit that Fischer never had shit to lose, in this context.

404 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:51:28am

re: #401 Learned Mother of Zion

Bryan Fischer drools DERP, totally loses his shit over Condi Rice rumor:

Still trying to convince anyone that this "base" to which he refers can get Romney elected. It can't. I'm delighted to see them acting as though it can, however.

405 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:52:09am

re: #403 Kragar

I would submit that Fischer never had shit to lose, in this context.

He's all shit, whatever he loses, just grows back.

406 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:52:19am

re: #401 Learned Mother of Zion

Bryan Fischer drools DERP, totally loses his shit over Condi Rice rumor:

he is voicing what a lot of GOP folks are thinking.

407 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:52:39am

re: #401 Learned Mother of Zion

Bryan Fischer drools DERP, totally loses his shit over Condi Rice rumor:

Condi is too good to run with Mitt.

That said, if Bryan Fischer loses sleep over the idea, I'm OK with that!

408 Mattand  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:52:53am

re: #401 Learned Mother of Zion

Bryan Fischer drools DERP, totally loses his shit over Condi Rice rumor:

Ms. Rice [It's DR Rice you doofus!], as appealing as she might be at first glance, is pro-abortion, pro-gay, pro-affirmative action, and pro-green. In other words, she would make a terrible choice as a running mate for a candidate who already suffers from a serious enthusiasm deficit with the base.

Translation: "We need someone really fucking stupid, like Palin or Santorum."

409 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:53:16am

re: #402 Kragar

The Episcopal denomination's General Convention voted this week to make it illegal to "discriminate against anyone." Specifically, that means it is now illegal to "... bar from the priesthood people who were born into one gender and live as another or who do not identify themselves as male or female."

Readers of my columns and other pieces may remember my prediction that this fast train into the pit would not stop just with practicing homosexuals. It will inevitably lead all the way to pedophilia.

Whiplash! LOLWUT?

410 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:53:49am

re: #401 Learned Mother of Zion

Bryan Fischer drools DERP, totally loses his shit over Condi Rice rumor:

And yes, the fact that he refers to her as "Ms. Rice" repeatedly is inappropriate as hell.

411 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:53:58am

Barton Strikes Back, Now Considers Himself to be a Historian

As we have noted several dozen times before, David Barton has something of a problem with telling the truth. And we have not been the only ones making note of it, especially since the release of his "The Jefferson Lies" book has prompted Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter to write an entire book questioning his claims while other Jefferson scholars have criticized Barton's shoddy scholarship.

Now it appears that Barton has gotten fed up, as he posted a response to his critics on the WallBuilders website in which he basically says that all his snooty academic critics are just jealous that he has written a bunch of best-selling books while nobody reads their boring works:

I have penned numerous best-selling history works, and characteristic of each is a heavy reliance on primary-source documentation ... Not many individuals in America have read more original works (or fewer modern ones) than I have; and the general public has responded enthusiastically to this history based on original documentation... [T]ypical history works by modern elitist professors generally sell very poorly; and seeing their own influence wane, they often lash out and condescendingly criticize the more popular documentary works.

...

A common mantra for today’s academics is “Publish or die.” Believing that if they are not publishing something new that their academic career is regressing, they therefore regularly “discover” something they believe to be a new revelation on some obscure micropoint of history, and then, as if having received an earth-shattering revelation, write an article or book giving their personal opinions about it. Significantly, however, the public does not respond well to these works, for publishers claim that with few exceptions most academic scholars’ books sell only two hundred or so copies a year.

The only reason he is a "best selling author" is because he's got a gimmick, not because he's accurate.

412 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:54:34am

Mitt could consider Dinah Abrahamson, she's a fourfer: 1) Black 2) female 3) Jewish 4) GOP

413 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:56:17am

re: #412 Learned Mother of Zion

Mitt could consider Dinah Abrahamson, she's a fourfer: 1) Black 2) female 3) Jewish 4) GOP

Plus, she was on Oprah. I dunno, I don't think my heart could take what would come out of the woodwork (left and right woodwork) were she to run.

414 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:57:12am

re: #397 Killgore Trout

Yes they have: Do Bain SEC documents suggest Mitt Romney is a criminal?

TPM is also hyping the story this morning but neither TPM of Huffpo, unlike the WaPo fact checker, link to the documents for reference. What Huffpo and TPM don't tell us is the results of the investigation.

The State Ballot Commission actually made no such determination though. You can read for yourself that they've conflated the accurate "The State Ballot Commission made no such determination though" in the previous paragraph into the utterly unsupported "conclusion" you bolded. Factcheck's "conclusion" doesn't flow from the evidence and it's unbelievably lazy and unprofessional for them to pretend it does. Another thing they didn't address the discrepancy between Romney's 2011 FEC declaration that he hadn't been involved with any Bain affiliated entity since 1999, when his testimony says he was attending board meeting for Lifelike Co.

It's also difficult to believe that you've even read the testimony:

Speaking before the ballot commission on June 18, 2002, Romney offered a different story: that he had every intention of returning to Bain Capital at the time he left to take over the Olympics, and only later decided he wanted to move on from the company entirely.

“When I left my employer in Massachusetts in February of 1999 to accept the Olympic assignment, I left on the basis of a leave of absence, indicating that I, by virtue of that title, would return at the end of the Olympics to my employment at Bain Capital, but subsequently decided not to do so and entered into a departure agreement with my former partners, I use that in the colloquial sense, not legal sense, but my former partners,” Romney said.

He continued: “Upon completion of that agreement and that understanding with them, it was at approximately at that time that Ann and I decided that we would devote the time that I would spend in my career going forward to public service of one kind or another.”

So his state of mind on leaving was that it was a temporary absence and that he would return.

415 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:57:17am

re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist

Plus, she was on Oprah. I dunno, I don't think my heart could take what would come out of the woodwork (left and right woodwork) were she to run.

Utter confusion.

416 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:57:31am

re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist

Plus, she was on Oprah. I dunno, I don't think my heart could take what would come out of the woodwork (left and right woodwork) were she to run.

Hasn't been heard from for 3 years.

417 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:59:18am

re: #401 Learned Mother of Zion

loool

418 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:59:22am

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

And yes, the fact that he refers to her as "Ms. Rice" repeatedly is inappropriate as hell.

Yep. But I bet he refers to the Alaskan Bimbo as Governor Palin.

419 labman57  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 9:59:54am

This what happens when you continually hit your "reset button". Mitt v.2 tends to forget the (on the record) statements previously made by Mitt v.1

420 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:00:42am

Geraldo Rivera Gloats: I Was Right About The Hoodie

I was right about the hoodie wasn’t I? I hate to brag, but I got criticized by every pundit in America when I said Trayvon Martin would be alive today but for the fact that he was wearing thug wear – he was wearing the hoodie. Turns out now that we look at George Zimmerman’s interviews with the police; he didn’t profile Trayvon Martin because he was black, he profiled him because he was wearing a hoodie.

421 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:00:54am

re: #414 goddamnedfrank

The conclusion of the report states....

The Respondent was employed in Massachusetts from 1975 until 1999.”

“On February 11, 1999, the Respondent went to Utah to take the position of Chief Executive Officer (CEO) for the Salt Lake Organizing Committee of the 2002 Winter Olympic Games, a non-profit organization burdened by scandal and fiscal crisis.”

“On or about February 11, 1999, the Respondent became an employee of the Salt Lake Organizing Committee for a fixed term of three years. While so employed, the Respondent worked, on average, over 12 hours per day, 6 days per week.”

They ruled that his employment ended in 1999.

422 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:01:16am

re: #419 labman57

This what happens when you continually hit your "reset button". Mitt v.2 tends to forget the (on the record) statements previously made by Mitt v.1

I told you not to memory wipe the Romney droids until *after* the election.

So hard to find good minions these days!
//

423 blueraven  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:02:27am

re: #397 Killgore Trout

Yes they have: Do Bain SEC documents suggest Mitt Romney is a criminal?

TPM is also hyping the story this morning but neither TPM or Huffpo, unlike the WaPo fact checker, link to the documents for reference. What Huffpo and TPM don't tell us is the results of the investigation.

This article is about criminality, not responsibility

The SEC documents, especially the ones Romney signed, do raise some questions. One can certainly argue that because Romney did not fully extricate himself from Bain till after his Olympic sojourn ended, he should bear some responsibility for what happened in that period. But that is an entirely different matter than suggesting that he is a potential criminal. It is more of a PR problem, which the Obama campaign is trying to exploit to build a larger case that Romney is secretive.

We were tempted to award this claim Four Pinocchios, but the documents with his signature leave some room for inquiry.

424 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:03:13am

re: #421 Killgore Trout

The conclusion of the report states...

They ruled that his employment ended in 1999.

If his employment ended, why did he continue to receive a salary?

425 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:04:40am

Classy as always:

426 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:05:54am

re: #423 blueraven

This article is about criminality, not responsibility

True. You can reasonably claim that Mitt would be morally/ethically responsible for the actions of Bain while his name was still on the books but there's no proof that he was making the decisions and actively running the company past '99. There's no evidence for that.

427 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:06:14am

re: #424 allegro

If his employment ended, why did he continue to receive a salary?

What, $100,000? That was bupkis! Just a small token of appreciation so he can buy horseshoes.

428 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:07:10am

re: #425 Learned Mother of Zion

Classy as always:

[Embedded content]

Condi Rice is "Obama in a skirt"?

Oh, the multiple ways to unpack this outpouring of hatred. None of them nice.

429 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:07:14am

re: #421 Killgore Trout

The conclusion of the report states...

They ruled that his employment ended in 1999.

No, they bought that his residency continued. Neither you nor Romney's spokespeople seem to understand that the entire purpose of a ballot commission is limited to determining residency, not to issue determinative rulings on employment status. That's what we have SEC documents signed under oath to prove. The Ballot Commission bought his argument that residency continued through his many trips home, to among other things attend board meetings for Bain affiliated Lifelike Co. and ruled that he was eligible to run for Governor. For some reason he omitted this Lifelike board activity from his 2011 FEC declaration, when he said he hadn't been involved with any Bain affiliated entity since 1999.

430 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:07:22am

re: #426 Killgore Trout

True. You can reasonably claim that Mitt would be morally/ethically responsible for the actions of Bain while his name was still on the books but there's no proof that he was making the decisions and actively running the company past '99. There's no evidence for that.

Yes, there is. He testified that he was attending board meetings after 1999.

I know you're heavily invested in ignoring facts like these, but nonetheless the facts are what they are.

431 blueraven  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:07:51am

re: #426 Killgore Trout

True. You can reasonably claim that Mitt would be morally/ethically responsible for the actions of Bain while his name was still on the books but there's no proof that he was making the decisions and actively running the company past '99. There's no evidence for that.

Add legally responsible.

So if he can be held morally/ethically and legally responsible, what else is there?

432 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:08:51am

re: #424 allegro

If his employment ended, why did he continue to receive a salary?

A fine point. It reminds us that Mitt is not like your or me. He lives in another world of high-level business deals, where a "salary" is one of many modes of recompensation and "employment" is a vague term at best...

433 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:09:15am

re: #425 Learned Mother of Zion

Classy as always:

[Embedded content]

That woman has a lot of hate in her but why Condi? In a related note, one of the magazines I'm working on is trying to get Dr. Rice to give us her thoughts on the significance of the Emancipation Proclamation.

434 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:09:57am
435 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:09:58am

re: #431 blueraven

Add legally responsible.

So if he can be held morally/ethically and legally responsible, what else is there?

This is what gets me: people somehow think that someone who is sole shareholder of a company could in any way not be responsible for what that company does.

It's, frankly, fucking mindboggling.

436 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:10:11am

Perhaps the only thing that would compare to Obama winning a second term would be Romney picking Condi as his VP. The tears. Oh the tears.

437 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:11:23am

re: #436 SpaceJesus

Perhaps the only thing that would compare to Obama winning a second term would be Romney picking Condi as his VP. The tears. Oh the tears.

I'm waiting for Saturday night. It could be high hilarity for Mittens.

438 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:12:08am

re: #430 Charles Johnson

Yes, there is. He testified that he was attending board meetings after 1999

For other companies that he was still on the board of. Not at Bain.

439 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:13:04am

It's not gonna happen. Condi would not accept the VP slot if Mitt offered it to her on a velvet pillow while crawling on his knees over broken glass.

Just. Not. Going. To. Happen.

440 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:13:08am

re: #431 blueraven

Add legally responsible.

So if he can be held morally/ethically and legally responsible, what else is there?

Metaphysics. Parallel world Romney with a goatee is totally blameless, so vote Republican.

441 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:13:09am

re: #437 Kragar

I waiting for Saturday night. It could be high hilarity for Mittens.

What's on Saturday night?

442 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:13:46am

re: #438 Killgore Trout

For other companies that he was still on the board of. Not at Bain.

He's also listed on SEC documents as CEO and Managing Director until 2002. You continue to spin this as not being "evidence," but it clearly is.

443 makeitstop  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:14:07am

re: #438 Killgore Trout

For other companies that he was still on the board of. Not at Bain.

I haven't seen that distinction made. Got a link for that?

444 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:14:35am

re: #438 Killgore Trout

For other companies that he was still on the board of. Not at Bain.

Two of which were owned by Bain. Jeez, how many ways can a hair be sliced?

445 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:15:15am

re: #438 Killgore Trout

For other companies that he was still on the board of. Not at Bain.

Lifelike was affiliated with Bain, part owned by them, which is where the stock shares came from to place Mitt on the Board. When Romney told the FEC in 2011 that he had no involvement with Bain affiliated companies since 1999 that wasn't true, capiche?

... like pulling teeth.

446 gwangung  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:15:30am

re: #444 allegro

Two of which were owned by Bain. Jeez, how many ways can a hair be sliced?

For as long as he thinks we're idiots.

It's rather insulting.

447 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:15:51am

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
Haha, I don't mind old H.W Bush sometimes. Too bad many in his party are afraid of upsetting ol' Grover.

448 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:15:53am

re: #431 blueraven

Add legally responsible.

So if he can be held morally/ethically and legally responsible, what else is there?

Legally responsible in some cases. Suppose Bain had some sort of embezzlement scandal during that period. They stole money from a company bought after Mitt left. Could be be thrown in jail or sued for it if he had no part in the decision making? I don't know.

449 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:15:59am

re: #441 HappyWarrior

What's on Saturday night?

Nebraska Primary.

Ron Paul supporters bank on Nebraska vote to interrupt national convention

If Paul's campaign can snag a majority of Nebraska delegates it will give the libertarian-leaning Texan congressman effective control of five state delegations and the chance to be nominated for president from the convention floor at Tampa as well as a 15-minute speaking slot.

Despite not winning a single state at the ballot box during the Republican nomination race, Paul's campaign has waged a stealth "delegate strategy" whereby his supporters use often arcane party rules to get picked as delegates to Tampa. In some states, such as Iowa, that has given them control of the state delegation, despite not winning the state's caucus vote.

Now, with Nebraska being the last state to hold a convention to pick delegates for Tampa, Paul's campaign needs a win to give him just enough states to use the GOP's own rule book and perhaps force a floor vote against the winner of the nomination race, Mitt Romney.

450 dragonfire1981  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:16:37am

Romney adds more rich people to campaign team

A trio of wealthy Arkansas businessmen has joined Republican Mitt Romney's fundraising operation, the campaign announced this week.

Warren Stephens, a billionaire investment banker from Little Rock; Murphy Oil Chairman Claiborne Deming; and John Tyson, president of the poultry-processing giant Tysons' Foods are Romney for President "finance state co-chairs," according to a news release posted Thursday on the campaign's website.

"We are all proud to be a part of the Romney team," Stephens said in a statement. "President Obama has had over three years to fix our economy and it is clear that he is in over his head. Mitt Romney has a decades-long record of job creation and the pro-growth plan to get the country on the right track. We all look forward to working our hardest to help provide the resources needed to defeat President Obama and turn around the country."

Given the current controversy over Bain Capital those comments are quite hilarious. The article continues:

Romney has refused to release a complete list of his fundraisers and how much they have collected from others, bucking a practice of presidential nominees going back to the 2000 election. Romney occasionally announced fundraisers in 2011 to demonstrate support for his candidacy in key states, but those announcements have been rare in recent months.

For a story published Thursday, USA TODAY reviewed invitations, news releases, Federal Election Commission records and other accounts to identify roughly 1,200 individuals raising campaign money for Romney. Among the findings: Executives from the world of finance account for roughly a quarter of his fundraisers, more than any other sector.

Given what happened in 2008, this should worry us all.

451 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:16:55am

re: #442 Charles Johnson

He's also listed on SEC documents as CEO and Managing Director until 2002. You continue to spin this as not being "evidence," but it clearly is.

Everybody acknowledges he was on the books until 2002. Nobody is disputing that.

452 dragonfire1981  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:17:33am

re: #449 Kragar

Nebraska Primary.

Ron Paul supporters bank on Nebraska vote to interrupt national convention

That would be some of the best comedy ever.

453 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:17:43am

re: #450 dragonfire1981

Romney adds more rich people to campaign team

Given the current controversy over Bain Capital those comments are quite hilarious. The article continues:

Given what happened in 2008, this should worry us all.

I love how Stephens is like Obama's had three years to fix the economy. Way to ignore the obvious obstruction by Mr. Romney's party, idiot.

454 gwangung  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:17:44am

re: #448 Killgore Trout

Legally responsible in some cases. Suppose Bain had some sort of embezzlement scandal during that period. They stole money from a company bought after Mitt left. Could be be thrown in jail or sued for it if he had no part in the decision making? I don't know.

Yes, if he signed off on ledgers, yes, if it was something he should have known about in the regular course of business as Managing Director/President/CEO, absent any documentation he turned over his duties to someone else.

But, again, you know this. You've been told this before.

455 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:18:12am

re: #449 Kragar

Nebraska Primary.

Ron Paul supporters bank on Nebraska vote to interrupt national convention

That would be too funny.

456 Mocking Jay  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:18:18am

Suddenly picturing an alternate ending to Spartacus.

"I am Bain CEO!"

"No, I am Bain CEO!!"

457 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:18:27am

re: #452 dragonfire1981

That would be some of the best comedy ever.

And given the week Romney has had so far, its becoming more likely.

458 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:18:44am

hEH. pWN3D.

459 gwangung  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:19:39am

re: #451 Killgore Trout

Everybody acknowledges he was on the books until 2002. Nobody is disputing that.

You've been disputing that this means anything. You've been disputing that this should be taken seriously. You've been ignoring the regulations that having your name on the books means you are legally and financially responsible for your company.

That's not an argument you can win.

460 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:19:44am

re: #458 Learned Mother of Zion

hEH. pWN3D.

[Embedded content]

Haha. Trump's a dumb nut.

461 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:20:16am

re: #451 Killgore Trout

Everybody acknowledges he was on the books until 2002. Nobody is disputing that.

Then how can you state that there is "no evidence" he was involved in decision-making after 1999?

He was CEO and Managing Director until 2002. And now we also know that he was sitting in board meetings with Bain-owned companies.

These things are called "evidence."

462 blueraven  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:21:32am

re: #448 Killgore Trout

Legally responsible in some cases. Suppose Bain had some sort of embezzlement scandal during that period. They stole money from a company bought after Mitt left. Could be be thrown in jail or sued for it if he had no part in the decision making? I don't know.

I dont know either, but I would surmise that the company in question would name him in any legal action since he was listed as CEO, and managing director.

463 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:22:37am

It's a question of totality of the circumstances and objective behavior.

464 Mocking Jay  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:22:51am

re: #451 Killgore Trout

465 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:23:43am

Glenn Kessler Jumps the Shark

Washington Post Fact Checker Glenn Kessler, who has dismissed the significance of Mitt Romney's role at Bain Capital after 1999, announced yesterday that he would reconsider his assessment following the landmark Boston Globe report.

Today, he offers this:

Despite the furor, we did not see much new in the Globe article. We had examined many SEC documents related to Romney and Bain in January, and concluded that much of the language saying Romney was “sole stockholder, chairman of the board, chief executive officer, and president” was boilerplate that did not reveal whether he was actually managing Bain at the time. (For instance, there is no standard definition of a “chief executive,” securities law experts say, and there is no requirement for anyone to have any responsibilities even if they have that title.)

One more time, in case you missed it: "much of the language saying Romney was 'sole stockholder, chairman of the board, chief executive officer, and president' was boilerplate that did not reveal whether he was actually managing Bain at the time."

Brad De Long, the liberal economics professor and deputy assistant Treasury secretary under President Clinton, has called on Kessler to provide one example of another person who has simultaneously worn the four titles while claiming no responsibilities whatsoever with the business.

Stand by on that... though you may want to sit.

466 kirkspencer  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:24:21am

re: #448 Killgore Trout

Legally responsible in some cases. Suppose Bain had some sort of embezzlement scandal during that period. They stole money from a company bought after Mitt left. Could be be thrown in jail or sued for it if he had no part in the decision making? I don't know.

In your specific example, the problem for Mitt is showing he had no part in the decision making. By his own testimony he attended (edit to add some) Bain board meetings between 1999 and 2002. If it is shown the behavior that led to scandal was common practice, and/or discussed or referenced during one of the meetings Romney attended, he can indeed be held liable.

Romney is saying now he had no input. But he's also testified he attended meetings, and he's signed papers that claim authority and responsibility.

467 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:25:25am

What I'm learning about the so-called non-partisan fact checkers on this story is that they're more interested in keeping the horse race going than in actually checking facts. Sure, they're "non-partisan" all right -- they don't care which party wins, as long as they can continue to hype the drama and sell advertising.

468 Mocking Jay  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:25:46am

re: #465 Charles Johnson

If we're going to start absolving authority figures unless they personally made a decision then can we get Obama off the hook for Solyndra finally?

469 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:27:06am

re: #466 kirkspencer

No, he didn't testify (or at least, there's no testimony shown yet) that he attended Bain board meetings, just that he attended companies part-owned by Bain, as the Bain shareholder representative. Which is still, obviously, being involved in Bain's business.

Bain may not have even had board meetings; if it's an LLC, which I think it was, it doesn't have to. If it's a standard C corp, it does, and I do think that Romney would have to participate in them either in his role as sole stockholder, CEO, Chairman, etc.

470 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:27:26am

re: #468 It's a cookbook!

If we're going to start absolving authority figures unless they personally made a decision then can we get Obama off the hook for Solyndra finally?

No! Because he's Black!

471 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:29:25am

re: #469 Obdicut

No, he didn't testify (or at least, there's no testimony shown yet) that he attended Bain board meetings, just that he attended companies part-owned by Bain, as the Bain shareholder representative. Which is still, obviously, being involved in Bain's business.

Bain may not have even had board meetings; if it's an LLC, which I think it was, it doesn't have to. If it's a standard C corp, it does, and I do think that Romney would have to participate in them either in his role as sole stockholder, CEO, Chairman, etc.

Wikipedia lists it as a Private LLC.

Which interestingly enough does not make it subject to Sarbanes-Oxley either.

472 blueraven  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:30:14am

re: #467 Charles Johnson

What I'm learning about the so-called non-partisan fact checkers on this story is that they're more interested in keeping the horse race going than in actually checking facts. Sure, they're "non-partisan" all right -- they don't care which party wins, as long as they can continue to hype the drama and sell advertising.

That, and nobody likes to admit, they might have been wrong!
If they want to be taken seriously they need to re-evaluate as new facts come to light, instead of digging in.

473 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:32:30am

re: #469 Obdicut

No, he didn't testify (or at least, there's no testimony shown yet) that he attended Bain board meetings, just that he attended companies part-owned by Bain, as the Bain shareholder representative. Which is still, obviously, being involved in Bain's business.

Bain may not have even had board meetings; if it's an LLC, which I think it was, it doesn't have to. If it's a standard C corp, it does, and I do think that Romney would have to participate in them either in his role as sole stockholder, CEO, Chairman, etc.

You're correct, Bain is an LLC. I can't find a single reference to it holding a board meeting, ever. Plenty of consulting advice for purchased companies' board meetings, but nothing about any of the Bains ever actually having one.

Good catch. So none of Mitt's titles are in any way impinged by his lack of specific mention of Bain meetings in the 2002 Ballot Commission testimony.

474 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:32:46am

freep is mad that lgf is considered a conservative site still

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

475 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:34:22am

re: #467 Charles Johnson

The fact checkers have a vested interest in being "right" even when they are "wrong". Otherwise they'll no longer be able to cling to some imaginary mantle of sainthood.

476 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:36:49am

re: #474 SpaceJesus

freep is mad that lgf is considered a conservative site still

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

"THEY DON'T PRAISE JESUS, INSULT OTHER RACES, OR ROUTINELY CALL FOR REVOLUTION OR FOR PEOPLE TO COMMIT FELONIES!!! HOW CAN THEY BE CALLED CONSERVATIVE?!"

477 Mocking Jay  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:37:14am

re: #474 SpaceJesus

freep is mad that lgf is considered a conservative site still

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

Charles probably is too...

478 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:37:15am

re: #433 HappyWarrior

That woman has a lot of hate in her but why Condi? In a related note, one of the magazines I'm working on is trying to get Dr. Rice to give us her thoughts on the significance of the Emancipation Proclamation.

First, she's black. Second, she's a moderate Republican in ways that are not tolerated by the new, insane Young Turks of the GOP. Thirdly, she's smarter than anyone else, which upsets them.

Fourthly, (and this is related to Schlussel's Hamas business, although I don't know how widespread it really is) she's become the repository of a lot of hostility over Bush's Israel policy, ie, they will never admit that what Obama is doing now looks a lot like what Bush did then, so things like chiding the Israeli government, or the settlement freeze discussions get projected onto Condi to protect the party and the rest of the administration. The fact that she was doing her job, and that she didn't do anything without the administration's backing does not matter. It was all her fault, to the extent that we can even admit that happened.

Plus, she's very hot, not at all girly, and possibly a lesbian. All of these things are also held against her.

479 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:37:47am

re: #439 Learned Mother of Zion

It's not gonna happen. Condi would not accept the VP slot if Mitt offered it to her on a velvet pillow while crawling on his knees over broken glass.

Just. Not. Going. To. Happen.

She's made it clear she doesn't want to run for anything. She's back in academia, and she's happy.

480 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:38:14am

Factcheck.org on the huffpo article...
[Link: factcheck.org...]

We note for the record our disagreement with a July 12 Huffington Post report, which cites Romney’s membership on the LifeLike board as evidence that his claim to have had no active involvement with Bain or any Bain entity is “false.” No so, in our judgment.

We think the term “Bain Capital entity” on Romney’s disclosure forms could only refer to Bain’s various investment funds, not to companies in which it invested. And in the three days that Romney sought to document his continued ties to Massachusetts, so he could run for governor, he made no mention of attending any meetings at Bain itself or any of the various Bain partnerships.

481 makeitstop  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:43:23am

The parsing continues, I see.

482 gwangung  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:43:44am

re: #480 Killgore Trout

Factcheck.org on the huffpo article...
[Link: factcheck.org...]

Um, don't you have to admit that's some pretty weak sauce there for the Post?

Damn. They dispensed with the shovels and have gone in for the drilling machine....

483 iossarian  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:43:45am

re: #480 Killgore Trout

Factcheck.org on the huffpo article...
[Link: factcheck.org...]

So Romney was actively involved in companies in which Bain was investing, but he wasn't actively involved in Bain's investments in those companies, is that about it?

By the way, why did Romney list his "primary occupation" as being a managing director of Bain in 2001? If something's your "primary occupation", surely that's the single thing you spend the largest proportion of your time doing?

484 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:45:30am

re: #482 gwangung

Um, don't you have to admit that's some pretty weak sauce there for the Post?

Damn. They dispensed with the shovels and have gone in for the drilling machine...

No, I actually find their arguments quite persuasive.

485 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:45:43am

re: #480 Killgore Trout

We think the term “Bain Capital entity” on Romney’s disclosure forms could only refer to Bain’s various investment funds, not to companies in which it invested.

LOL really? That's what they're going with? There's that hair again getting thinner and thinner...

486 gwangung  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:46:10am

re: #483 iossarian

So Romney was actively involved in companies in which Bain was investing, but he wasn't actively involved in Bain's investments in those companies, is that about it?

By the way, why did Romney list his "primary occupation" as being a managing director of Bain in 2001? If something's your "primary occupation", surely that's the single thing you spend the largest proportion of your time doing?

You know...at the very, very best...Romney's been sloppy on the little details and doesn't take care of them.

Want someone that sloppy and slippery as President?

487 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:47:04am

re: #480 Killgore Trout

so now they are parsing the meaning of what "is" is?

488 gwangung  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:47:38am

re: #484 Killgore Trout

No, I actually find their arguments quite persuasive.

Hm. As someone who deals with SEC and LLPs a lot, I don't.

You really sound like a creationist trying to defend Ken Ham or William Dembski.

489 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:48:08am

re: #486 gwangung

You know...at the very, very best...Romney's been sloppy on the little details and doesn't take care of them.

Want someone that sloppy and slippery as President?

This is the trap that he cannot extricate himself from. All he can do is try to pick on Obama for "unfounded attacks" on him and his reputation.

490 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:52:05am

Reading the Freeh Report on the independent investigation at Penn State.

A pretty scathing indictment of the higher leadership at the university, along with castigating the Board of Trustees for providing insufficient oversight and dealing with the issue poorly.

At best it's horribly misplaced loyalty. Beyond that it's a complete lack or desire to act to protect children from sexual abuse and protecting the criminal by keeping silent and covering up for him.

491 Digital Display  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:52:20am

Well I'm voting for Obama..But I sure as hell regret not taking out a loan and investing in Bain Capital when Mitt was running roughshod in the investment game. The similarities of him and Gordan in Wall Street are striking and Ironic. ( esp. If he gets elected and America wakes up one day to find he broke up everything and sold it off )
Wish I knew about the future of Bain then, I'd be filthy rich burning 100 dollar bills to light my Cuban cigars...Then again I would have probably opened up an account with Bernie Madoff.. The Hoopster Karma effect

492 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:54:42am

And now, a completely different version of Romney's visit to Israel on Tisha B'Av, no mention whatever of the $60,000 (or was it $50,000?) fundraiser.

The Romneybots think we all have short term memory loss, or something.

493 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:55:29am

re: #492 Learned Mother of Zion

And now, a completely different version of Romney's visit to Israel on Tisha B'Av, no mention whatever of the $60,000 (or was it $50,000?) fundraiser.

The Romneybots think we all have short term memory loss, or something.

They think the public are stupid.

494 palomino  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:58:02am

These are the words of current Bain Managing Director (who for some reason John King finds an unimpeachable source with no conflict of interest):

"Mitt Romney left Bain Capital in February 1999 to run the Olympics and has had absolutely no involvement with the management or investment activities of the firm or with any of its portfolio companies since the day of his departure."

If he had no involvement with Bain's portfolio companies, why did he attend those companies' board meetings 99-03?

495 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:59:20am

re: #494 palomino

These are the words of current Bain Managing Director (who for some reason John King finds an unimpeachable source with no conflict of interest):

If he had no involvement with Bain's portfolio companies, why did he attend those companies' board meetings 99-03?

It's all very strange.

496 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 10:59:35am

CNN Report Debunks Latest False Attack From Obama Campaign

497 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:00:56am

re: #494 palomino

These are the words of current Bain Managing Director (who for some reason John King finds an unimpeachable source with no conflict of interest):

If he had no involvement with Bain's portfolio companies, why did he attend those companies' board meetings 99-03?

I think because he was probably on the board of those companies.

498 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:02:00am

re: #497 Killgore Trout

I think because he was probably on the board of those companies.

You think a lot of things without or that run counter to evidence.

499 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:04:04am

re: #498 goddamnedfrank

You think a lot of things without or that run counter to evidence.

Maybe he sneaked in the backdoor.

500 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:04:44am

re: #496 Killgore Trout

CNN Report Debunks Latest False Attack From Obama Campaign

[Embedded content]

And now you're posting headlines verbatim directly from the Romney campaign. What else do you expect they're going to say?

And everyone quoted in this CNN report is a Romney supporter. This is no "debunking."

You seem to really misunderstand the definition of that word.

501 iossarian  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:05:29am

re: #497 Killgore Trout

I think because he was probably on the board of those companies.

So you agree that he did have involvement with those companies, in that he attended board meetings, as a board member?

502 AK-47%  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:06:26am

re: #496 Killgore Trout

CNN presents the official company line of Bain Capital, namely that Mitt Romney was both sole owner and CEO and that he was not at the same time...

503 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:06:38am

re: #500 Charles Johnson

And everyone quoted in this CNN report is a Romney supporter.

That's not true...

No is the word from four sources who communicated with CNN on Thursday -- all of whom have firsthand knowledge of Bain's operations at the time in question. Three of the four are Democrats, and two of the four are active Obama supporters in Campaign 2012.

504 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:06:41am

re: #496 Killgore Trout

Seriously, dude. Watch the video. CNN did not "debunk" anything - they expressed no conclusion about the case. They quoted some spinning by Romney supporters, and the Romney campaign posted this video at YouTube, then you posted it here as a "debunking."

It's not.

505 iossarian  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:06:59am

re: #500 Charles Johnson

And now you're posting headlines verbatim directly from the Romney campaign. What else do you expect they're going to say?

And everyone quoted in this CNN report is a Romney supporter. This is no "debunking."

You seem to really misunderstand the definition of that word.

Exactly.

We went through this two weeks ago. I don't care if KT wants to promote the Romney party line, but if I hear the word "partisan" one more time from him in an attempt to discredit a source, I'm going to throw something.

506 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:07:59am

I'm sorry, but you can't swear to the Massachusetts elections board that you qualify to run for governor because you really are engaged in Bain activities in MA, flying back for LifeLike and Staples board meetings then turning around and saying "I had nothing to do with Bain activities during those years."

It's really that. fucking. simple.

507 Mocking Jay  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:08:12am

re: #496 Killgore Trout

Well, that statement from the independent source known as Bain Capital settles that.

508 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:08:31am

re: #501 iossarian

So you agree that he did have involvement with those companies, in that he attended board meetings, as a board member?

Sure. That's what Mitt said in his testimony and the investigation seemed to agreed.

509 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:08:43am

re: #503 Killgore Trout

Four BAIN OFFICIALS. Why are you leaving out that little detail?

510 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:09:09am

re: #499 Killgore Trout

Maybe he sneaked in the backdoor.

Why would Mitt Romney, who owned an investment capital firm lock stock and barrel, invest "personal" money in a company his firm already had a major stake in? It was artificially lowered stock options issued by Bain, in companies owned by Bain, that Romney used to stuff his IRA.

Your supposition strains all credulity.

511 iossarian  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:09:33am

re: #508 Killgore Trout

Sure. That's what Mitt said in his testimony and the investigation seemed to agreed.

So then why does the other Bain guy say:

"Mitt Romney left Bain Capital in February 1999 to run the Olympics and has had absolutely no involvement with the management or investment activities of the firm or with any of its portfolio companies since the day of his departure."

?

That statement directly contradicts the accepted truth that he attended board meetings of those companies.

512 Mocking Jay  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:09:35am

re: #506 SpaceJesus

I'm sorry, but you can't swear to the Massachusetts elections board that you qualify to run for governor because you really are engaged in Bain activities in MA, flying back for LifeLike and Staples board meetings then turning around and saying "I had nothing to do with Bain activities during those years."

It's really that. fucking. simple.

Mitt will say whatever he has to say to get what he wants.

That. Fucking. Simple.

513 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:10:02am

It's still fully bunked.

514 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:10:25am

re: #504 Charles Johnson

Seriously, dude. Watch the video. CNN did not "debunk" anything - they expressed no conclusion about the case. They quoted some spinning by Romney supporters, and the Romney campaign posted this video at YouTube, then you posted it here as a "debunking."

It's not.

Not Romney supporters. 3 dems, 2 of them campaigning for Obama. Since they are Bain employees you can take their word with a grain of salt but they aren't Romney supporters according to CNN.

515 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:11:09am

re: #509 Charles Johnson

Four BAIN OFFICIALS. Why are you leaving out that little detail?

Agreed, that was clear from the report.

516 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:11:36am

re: #509 Charles Johnson

Four BAIN OFFICIALS. Why are you leaving out that little detail?

It's incredibly inconvenient.

517 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:11:57am

This is coming down to what the definition of "is" is.

518 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:17:07am

Bain employees: We swear he didn't work there anymore.

Follow up question: Do you mean he had nothing to do with the company any longer?

BE: He didn't WORK there. He called all the time. He just didn't WORK there. He was in Utah.

519 Kragar  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:17:29am

The map that should scare every American

Image: droughtmap1.jpg

520 jaunte  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:17:32am

Has Romney or any of his people ever claimed he would have made decisions that were somehow different or better than the ones for which some unnamed Bain executives are now supposedly responsible?

521 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:19:12am

re: #518 allegro

Yeah, it's not surprising that they confimed what their employer has already said. It's not ground breaking journalism but it does make sense to ask Bain employees if Mitt was running the company after his departure. If one of them said yes it would have been a big scoop.

522 kirkspencer  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:19:26am

re: #469 Obdicut

No, he didn't testify (or at least, there's no testimony shown yet) that he attended Bain board meetings, just that he attended companies part-owned by Bain, as the Bain shareholder representative. Which is still, obviously, being involved in Bain's business.

Bain may not have even had board meetings; if it's an LLC, which I think it was, it doesn't have to. If it's a standard C corp, it does, and I do think that Romney would have to participate in them either in his role as sole stockholder, CEO, Chairman, etc.

good point. I was reading Bain affiliated and owned company board meetings as bain board meetings.

523 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:20:30am

re: #519 Kragar

The map that should scare every American

Image: droughtmap1.jpg

It's worse than that. Michigan is not designated a drought area on the map, and yet the cherry and apple crops have been destroyed due to a freak heat wave in March and then freezing temperatures in April.

524 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:21:01am

re: #520 jaunte

Has Romney or any of his people ever claimed he would have decisions that were somehow different or better than the ones for which some unnamed Bain executives are now supposedly responsible?

That's a good point. We have never heard that Romney ever had any problem with any Bain investments regardless of when they were made. It's only "I didn't do it."

525 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:21:53am

Romney giving interviews on ABC, CBS and NBC later today. He's leaving the safety of the Fox bubble, the smell of desperation is now palpable.

526 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:23:51am

When is the Republican convention?

527 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:24:17am

re: #526 allegro

When is the Republican convention?

later next month I want to say.

528 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:24:30am

BREAKING NEWS: Condi Rice still totally not accepting VP slot. DRUDGE MADE THIS CRAP UP and the media ran with it.

HAV MOAR FAIL.

529 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:24:37am

re: #524 allegro

That's a good point. We have never heard that Romney ever had any problem with any Bain investments regardless of when they were made. It's only "I didn't do it."

That's why accusing Mitt of Bain's antics after he left in '99 is a faulty line of attack. It's too easy for him to claim that it's not his fault. You can claim that Bain is a shitty company and his name is on the tax form but the attacks are weakened by blaming him for decisions he didn't personally make.

530 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:25:27am

Reminds me, have either party announced their keynote speakers yet? That's usually a good way to gouge who a party sees as the future.

531 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:25:29am

re: #528 Learned Mother of Zion

BREAKING NEWS: Condi Rice still totally not accepting VP slot. DRUDGE MADE THIS CRAP UP and the media ran with it.

HAV MOAR FAIL.

Shocker!

532 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:29:50am

re: #528 Learned Mother of Zion

BREAKING NEWS: Condi Rice still totally not accepting VP slot. DRUDGE MADE THIS CRAP UP and the media ran with it.

HAV MOAR FAIL.

It's very obviously a diversion from the Bain Capital controversy.

533 iossarian  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:29:54am

re: #529 Killgore Trout

That's why accusing Mitt of Bain's antics after he left in '99 is a faulty line of attack. It's too easy for him to claim that it's not his fault. You can claim that Bain is a shitty company and his name is on the tax form but the attacks are weakened by blaming him for decisions he didn't personally make.

You are quite wrong. His name's on the letterhead and he took millions in compensation.

The buck stops with him. Either that or he's the worst candidate for an executive position you could possibly come up with.

534 Targetpractice  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:30:50am

re: #529 Killgore Trout

That's why accusing Mitt of Bain's antics after he left in '99 is a faulty line of attack. It's too easy for him to claim that it's not his fault. You can claim that Bain is a shitty company and his name is on the tax form but the attacks are weakened by blaming him for decisions he didn't personally make.

All that has been proven, assuming one takes the word of Willard and Bain at face value, is that he delegated decision-making powers away. He was still CEO and he was still the sole stockholder. If he didn't approve of the actions taken by Bain after he'd "left" by before he'd given up all ties, then he needs to show that. Otherwise, his ass is still damned by Bain's actions.

535 blueraven  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:31:07am

re: #529 Killgore Trout

That's why accusing Mitt of Bain's antics after he left in '99 is a faulty line of attack. It's too easy for him to claim that it's not his fault. You can claim that Bain is a shitty company and his name is on the tax form but the attacks are weakened by blaming him for decisions he didn't personally make.

You dont know that he did not personally make decisions. But even if he didn't, he is responsible for those decisions as long as he signed SEC filings to the contrary.

536 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:31:11am

re: #529 Killgore Trout

You can claim that Bain is a shitty company and his name is on the tax form but the attacks are weakened by blaming him for decisions he didn't personally make.

I don't have to blame him for decisions he didn't make. I can blame him for plenty that he did. This is just one more in a long and growing file of truly reprehensible things about this man and his absolute refusal to take responsibility for his own actions and words. I blame him for knowingly profiting handsomely from companies and later claiming absolution when those money-making ventures turn out to be politically inconvenient. Regardless of who made the decision, Romney shared in the rewards.

537 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:32:21am

re: #533 iossarian

You are quite wrong. His name's on the letterhead and he took millions in compensation.

The buck stops with him. Either that or he's the worst candidate for an executive position you could possibly come up with.

I don;t the he's the worst, just not very good. His problems are greatly complicated by today's GOP. He can't tout his own role in innovating healtcare reform. I'm sure that's a bummer for him.

538 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:32:36am

Mitt Romney: Schrödinger's CEO

539 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:32:37am

re: #536 allegro

I don't have to blame him for decisions he didn't make. I can blame him for plenty that he did. This is just one more in a long and growing file of truly reprehensible things about this man and his absolute refusal to take responsibility for his own actions and words. I blame him for knowingly profiting handsomely from companies and later claiming absolution when those money-making ventures turn out to be politically inconvenient. Regardless of who made the decision, Romney shared in the rewards.

The bolded is exactly what this story is all about when it comes down to it.

540 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:33:35am

re: #535 blueraven

You dont know that he did not personally make decisions. But even if he didn't, he is responsible for those decisions as long as he signed SEC filings to the contrary.

Agreed, but there's no evidence that he did. So far all evidence points to the fact that he was not actively running Bain past his departure in 99.

541 Targetpractice  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:35:44am

re: #540 Killgore Trout

Agreed, but there's no evidence that he did. So far all evidence points to the fact that he was not actively running Bain past his departure in 99.

What evidence?

542 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:36:42am

re: #536 allegro

I don't have to blame him for decisions he didn't make. I can blame him for plenty that he did. This is just one more in a long and growing file of truly reprehensible things about this man and his absolute refusal to take responsibility for his own actions and words. I blame him for knowingly profiting handsomely from companies and later claiming absolution when those money-making ventures turn out to be politically inconvenient. Regardless of who made the decision, Romney shared in the rewards.

I think that's a reasonable position.

543 allegro  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:38:03am

re: #540 Killgore Trout

Agreed, but there's no evidence that he did. So far all evidence points to the fact that he was not actively running Bain past his departure in 99.

Are you using "not actively running" Bain as the equivalent of "not responsible" for Bain?

544 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:39:30am

you know, all the evidence except Romney's representations to the people of MA

545 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:40:05am

re: #543 allegro

Are you using "not actively running" Bain as the equivalent of "not responsible" for Bain?

No. Although I don't personally blame Mitt for Bain after he left (I really couldn't give a shit) but I think you can make a reasonable case that he was involved with a shitty company that did shitty things.

546 palomino  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:42:44am

re: #497 Killgore Trout

I think because he was probably on the board of those companies.

Which means he DID have contact with companies that were part of Bain's "investment portfolio" post-99. Thanks for clearing that up.

547 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:44:33am

I guess when it comes down to it, don't run away from your actual record in elective office if your private sector record makes you look like a greedy dick. Job creator, bah. How this guy ever got elected to office in the first place is amazing in the first place.

548 palomino  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:48:11am

re: #529 Killgore Trout

That's why accusing Mitt of Bain's antics after he left in '99 is a faulty line of attack. It's too easy for him to claim that it's not his fault. You can claim that Bain is a shitty company and his name is on the tax form but the attacks are weakened by blaming him for decisions he didn't personally make.

It's not a faulty line of attack. Romney created Bain, it's his company. Going to Utah to run the Olympics doesn't change this fact. Nor does it make him immediately lacking in responsibility...he handpicked the people who ran the company upon his semi-departure. If you're not responsible for decisions made by a company you created and staffed, then what the hell is any businessman responsible for?

The fact that he may not have personally made these decisions is only a partial defense. He's still part of the mix...this isn't some guilt by association because he once went to a party at someone's house, or some other BS like that.

549 diamonda2u  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 11:51:19am

Here's the problem with RMoney, he is EXPERT LIAR. He lies about the most trivial of things, he lies about anything that he thinks will make him look good and get him what he wants. For me this story is not about was he or was he not in charge of Bain, its about the fact he LIED either to say he was (the video) and SEC filings, or he is lying to say he was not (word of mouth from him and others). The one fact here is HE LIED! That should be what all these commercials show that he is the insecure guy from high school who is insecure and can't get thru life without LYING! and can't be TRUSTED! Why stay on the Bain financial dealings when RMoney has handed you a character assassination of his own making on a PLATINUM platter. You don't even have to talk, his own videos of him lying over the years do the job for you. He would have no ground to call you a liar because the commercials should be all about him spewing his lies, in his own words. I'm waiting for the RMoney debating RMoney commercial, in his own words (or did I miss it)?

550 GunstarGreen  Fri, Jul 13, 2012 12:11:33pm

re: #548 palomino

If you're not responsible for decisions made by a company you created and staffed, then what the hell is any businessman responsible for?

Nothing, and that's the entire point of modern Capitalism as it is practiced in the United States. LLCs and corporate personhood are entirely about reaping the profits while escaping liability a.k.a. responsibility.


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