#Breitbart.com Desperately Spinning Romney’s Jerusalem Speech

Just looking for that talking point fix
Politics • Views: 31,774

Speaking of dumb propaganda (we were, weren’t we?), there’s a hilarious post by Joel Pollak at breitbart.com, desperately trying to spin Mitt Romney’s references to “culture” in his Jerusalem fundraiser speech.

The screaming all caps headline: HOW AP, NPR LIED ABOUT ROMNEY ‘JEWISH DONORS’ SPEECH, USING PALESTINIAN PROPAGANDA

The “vicious lie” Pollak is bravely exposing:

NPR’s hourly news, read by Craig Windham, alleged that Romney told Jewish donors at a fundraiser in Jerusalem on Monday that “Jewish culture” allowed Israel to be more successful than its Palestinian neighbors. That blurb was accompanied an hour later by a short story from Sheera Frankel—who had reported earlier that nothing Romney said at the event had been made public, but that “one of the attendees” had told her his remarks had been “light and easy.” She also had reported initially that the fundraiser had been for “supporters…both from Israel and abroad,” as opposed to “Jewish donors.”

In her new story, Frankel reported the remarks as the AP presented them—including the reference to “Jewish donors.” She also repeated the AP’s implied criticism of Romney, using quotes from Palestinian official Saeb Erekat, who called Romney’s comments “racist.” Another report by Frankel later reinforced the AP and Erekat’s false meme.

In the first place, Romney never said the words “Jewish culture.”

Pollak links to several news articles, and not one of them uses the words “Jewish culture,” even though Pollak puts the phrase in quotes to suggest they did.

Pollak is correct that Romney didn’t use those words either, and nobody reported that he did. Here’s what Romney actually said, though, referring to Israeli economic superiority over Palestinians:

“Culture makes all the difference,” Mr. Romney said. “And as I come here and I look out over this city and consider the accomplishments of the people of this nation, I recognize the power of at least culture and a few other things.”

“As you come here and you see the G.D.P. per capita, for instance, in Israel which is about $21,000, and compare that with the G.D.P. per capita just across the areas managed by the Palestinian Authority, which is more like $10,000 per capita, you notice such a dramatically stark difference in economic vitality,” he said.

So Romney may not have used the words “Jewish culture,” but there can be no doubt at all that this is what he meant: the culture of the Jewish state of Israel. “I recognize the power of culture” can refer to nothing else, and when Romney cites the “power of culture” as a prime reason for economic superiority, he is implicitly saying that the economic inferior is also the cultural inferior.

Joel Pollak is a clown, posturing for a right wing base that could not possibly care less about anything they read making logical sense. All they’re looking for is the next talking point.

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327 comments
1 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 1:50:24pm

" Romney never said the words “Jewish culture.”"

" I come here and I look out over this city and consider the accomplishments of the people of this nation"

So what nation and city was Mitt talking about at the time?

Morons.

2 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 1:50:54pm

Umm, I think the GOP Presidential nominee has been doing a pretty good job of painting HIMSELF as a bigot (or at least letting his advisors retroactively do it for him).

3 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 1:51:46pm

Reposted from downstairs re: Sarah Palin/Chik-Fil-A

Question: Does simply not liking gay people make one a bigot?

I mean, you can not like door to door salesmen, telemarketers, e-mail spammers and not be bigoted.

What if I don't like people from Wisonsin, does that make me a bigot?

And, on the flip side of that is it possible for a Christian to oppose homosexuality and NOT be bigoted?

At what point do Christianity and bigotry become one and the same?

4 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 1:55:17pm

re: #3 dragonfire1981

There are plenty of Christian sects with complete acceptance of homosexuality.

5 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 1:56:18pm

re: #3 dragonfire1981

reposting my previous reply:

About the time you start contributing time and money to organizations trying to deny them their civil rights.

6 efuseakay  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:01:00pm

He looks like Stuart from MadTV. Look what I can do!

7 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:01:00pm

Surprising number 2 concern for voters

Americans view reducing government corruption as the second-highest priority for the next president, behind only job creation, according to a new Gallup poll released Monday.

Eighty-seven percent of respondents said that reducing corruption in the federal government is an “extremely important” or “very important” priority for the next president, compared with 92 percent who said the same about creating good jobs.

8 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:02:07pm

Anyone seen this picture before? I've seen similar, but not this particular one.

9 Buck  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:03:26pm

re: #1 Kragar

The "accomplishments of the people of this nation" are not fantastic because they are Jews.

You have to see it and experience it to understand it.

It really is a "miracle in the desert".

It is quite breathtaking.

(I will not debate this subject with anyone. This is my opinion, and if your is different you are entitled to it.)

10 iossarian  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:04:28pm

re: #7 Kragar

Surprising number 2 concern for voters

Good luck reducing corruption post Citizens United. Shoulda thought that one through a bit more carefully.

11 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:06:10pm

re: #9 Buck

The "accomplishments of the people of this nation" are not fantastic because they are Jews.

You have to see it and experience it to understand it.

It really is a "miracle in the desert".

It is quite breathtaking.

(I will not debate this subject with anyone. This is my opinion, and if your is different you are entitled to it.)

I was arguing the insanity of the Breitbart argument, not the history of Israel.

12 efuseakay  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:07:09pm
13 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:08:28pm

There also is no one coherent Jewish culture. The culture of Israel is a highly multicultural one, with strong roots in socialism.

14 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:09:20pm

Of course, if you press Pollak on this point and ask him if he does consider Palestinian culture to be inferior, he'll probably say yes. "Mitt Romney would never say something like that, but if he did he was right!"

15 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:15:54pm

re: #3 dragonfire1981

Reposted from down below.

Question: Does simply not liking gay people make one a bigot?

Yes. Your dislike is based on irrationality.

I mean, you can not like door to door salesmen, telemarketers, e-mail spammers and not be bigoted.

You dislike gays because of who they are, you dislike salesmen because of what they do. Gays have no choice. Salesmen do.

What if I don't like people from Wisonsin, does that make me a bigot?

Yes. Because of the incredible diversity within a geographic area, the reason you dislike them must be irrational.

And, on the flip side of that is it possible for a Christian to oppose homosexuality and NOT be bigoted?

What is their reasoning?

At what point do Christianity and bigotry become one and the same?

When some Christians make it that way for themselves. Each Christian can be evaluated individually, so a blanket accusation like the one you make here is nothing more than an attempt to poison the well.

16 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:16:53pm

The bottom line: Romney explicitly compared the economies of Israel and the Palestinian territories, said the Palestinian economy was greatly inferior, and said the main reason for this was "culture."

That's a completely fair description of Romney's comments.

17 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:19:31pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

The bottom line: Romney explicitly compared the economies of Israel and the Palestinian territories, said the Palestinian economy was greatly inferior, and said the main reason for this was "culture."

That's a completely fair description of Romney's comments.

He said 'at least' cultural. That means the culture as cause is necessary and sufficient in his mind.

18 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:21:04pm

re: #17 b_sharp

He said 'at least' cultural. That means the culture as cause is necessary and sufficient in his mind.

He also said, "Culture makes all the difference."

19 blueraven  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:22:39pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

The bottom line: Romney explicitly compared the economies of Israel and the Palestinian territories, said the Palestinian economy was greatly inferior, and said the main reason for this was "culture."

That's a completely fair description of Romney's comments.

This is a man who doesn't understand nuance. Just because you believe in one side, shouldn't mean that you can never see anything good in the other. Its a zero sum game for him.

20 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:24:28pm

His per capita GDP error shows once again how out of touch Romney is. From a couple of posts ago:

In fact, according to an estimate by the Central Intelligence Agency, in 2009 Israel had a per capita GDP of roughly $29,800, while in 2008 — the last year the C.I.A. has numbers on their Web site for the Palestinians — the per capita G.D.P. of the West Bank and Gaza was $2,900.

If you're Mitt Romney, $10,000 a year might as well be $2,900 a year. Either one is inconceivable. For that matter, so is $29,800.

21 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:30:04pm

Pollak is having trouble parsing the message he's placed into the empty space between the lines.

22 freetoken  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:33:34pm

Ironically, if one looks at the multitude of posts on rightwing websites, one sees two conflicting claims about "Palestinian culture".

The first is that there is no such thing. This is a common refrain in arguments about whether there should be a two state "solution", if there should be any Palestinian state whatsoever, etc. E.g.:

It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of a Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area.

Or the variant, as demonstrated by Cal Thomas, that "Palestinian culture" is the same as Arab or Muslim culture, as mashed up here:

Before Israel is allowed to disappear again (as Palestinian maps and school textbooks already depict) and the Jews who survive are sent into exile (who would take them?), it is worth noting a few of the numerous contributions Israel has made to the world, compared to what the Arab-Muslim-Palestinian culture has contributed.

The second claim is that there is indeed a Palestinian culture (in conflict with the first claim), but that it is inherently (and only) bad. Examples:

The promotion of violence on official television stations reflects its popularity in Palestinian culture.

---

Among the other examples in the report, prepared by a committee headed by Ya'acov Amidror and including PMW's founder, Itamar Marcus, are the PA's religious affairs official praising Palestinians who carry out "ribat," or religious war, and the coordinator of the National Committee on Summer Camps telling local media that Palestinian summer camps instill in kids the Palestinian culture, "which unites the culture of resistance, the culture of stones and guns ... and the culture of Shahada (martyrdom)."

---

[...] Abu Hilail murdered 11 people and crippled dozens more because the Palestinian culture loves death and slaughter.

---


And so forth. So, either there is no culture that Romney could call "Palestinian", or if there is, then it is just murderous.

I wonder what would have happened if some reporter asked Romney to describe Palestinian culture.

23 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:35:25pm

Does anyone have a link to that video where Romney made the same speech as Obama about "you didn't do it alone"? I believe there were two I saw.

24 sagehen  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:36:21pm

[Link: thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com...]

On Monday afternoon, Romney campaign officials did not respond to a query about whether Mr. Romney believes that the blockade of Gaza or trade restrictions in the West Bank have had any dampening effect on economic activity in those areas.

h/t TPM

25 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:36:31pm

I just realized why I find that picture of Pollak so creepy. The smile and the eyes are at odds, they don't agree with each other about his state of mind when the picture was taken.

26 blueraven  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:39:23pm

re: #23 Achilles Tang

Does anyone have a link to that video where Romney made the same speech as Obama about "you didn't do it alone"? I believe there were two I saw.

Here is one at the link

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

there was another one when he was referring to Olympic athletes

27 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:39:28pm

The cold hard fact is Israel's successes are indeed predicated on culture- the culture of a free society, not unlike the cultures of the US, Canada, the UK, France (nations with very different 'culture'), etc., and all free nations.

28 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:39:42pm

re: #24 sagehen

[Link: thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com...]

h/t TPM

I don;t think there's any doubt the blockade has an effect on Gaza. It's supposed to in order to persuade them to stop the almost daily rocket attacks and reject terrorism of the elected Hamas leadership. Gaza is free to chose its own destiny. This is what they've chosen.

29 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:41:09pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Gaza is free to chose its own destiny. This is what they've chosen.

What, because there was one election you think Gazans are free?

30 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:42:38pm

re: #27 researchok

The degree to which economic success depends on culture is a debate that's perfectly valid, but for a presidential candidate to bring it up in such a ham-handed pandering manner is nothing but a self-inflicted foot-shot.

31 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:45:17pm

re: #20 wrenchwench

His per capita GDP error shows once again how out of touch Romney is. From a couple of posts ago:

If you're Mitt Romney, $10,000 a year might as well be $2,900 a year. Either one is inconceivable. For that matter, so is $29,800.

Here's the really amazing thing. Romney is touting the Israeli GDP number as some kind of quality living they should be proud of to a bunch of ultra-rich who dropped that much or more just to get past the doorman.

Donors had to pay between $25,000 and $50,000 to attend.

A man against increasing taxes on the wealthy at a progressive rate commensurate with their income is telling a room full of millionaires, who paid an average person's yearly salary just to attend, that their culture is responsible for how much better off their serfs have it than the serfs next door.

32 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:47:35pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

I could not agree more- and this gaffe is more than mildly disturbing

Romney's advisers and speech writers are second rate, at best. These are the people he is supposed to rely on to give him clear and accurate information.

Romney may be able to select the finest business advisers but he has proved time and again his poor choices when it comes to political advisors

If these are the people he has chosen to surround himself with, he is not ready for prime time.

33 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:50:46pm

re: #32 researchok

If these are the people he has chosen to surround himself with, he is not ready for prime time.

At this point his party should be helping him too. I'm sure that's part of the problem.

34 gwangung  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:52:32pm

re: #33 wrenchwench

At this point his party should be helping him too. I'm sure that's part of the problem.

Yes. They think they ARE helping.

It's just that being accurate isn't part of their culture, as long as you are on "their side."

35 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:52:35pm

I think Romney is a 'well, he'll just have to do' candidate.

36 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:53:31pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

The degree to which economic success depends on culture is a debate that's perfectly valid, but for a presidential candidate to bring it up in such a ham-handed pandering manner is nothing but a self-inflicted foot-shot.

In the chess game of international diplomacy, once again Mitt draws an X in the center square.

37 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:57:46pm

And by the way, a cool technique for checking to see if a directory contains any files and read a list of those files for further processing, in one move:

if FILES=$(ls *.css 2> /dev/null); then
	for NAME in $FILES; do
		echo -e "${NAME}"
	done
fi
38 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:57:46pm

re: #33 wrenchwench

The GOP has gone off the deep end.

He may very well not want their 'help.'

39 freetoken  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 2:59:56pm

re: #36 Kragar

That's the thing, Romney's trip has nothing to do with international diplomacy. It's all about playing up to the preconceived notions of his wingnut "base" back home, who is he trying to fire up to get them to the polls on election day.

And it is showing - he's flailing at "diplomacy" but hitting all the right notes for his "base" and for his super-rich funders.

40 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:00:42pm

re: #38 researchok

The GOP has gone off the deep end.

He may very well not want their 'help.'

Can't win with 'em, can't win without 'em...

41 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:01:19pm

re: #39 freetoken

That's the thing, Romney's trip has nothing to do with international diplomacy. It's all about playing up to the preconceived notion of his wingnut "base" back home, who is he trying to fire up to get them to the polls on election day.

And it is showing - he's flailing at "diplomacy" but hitting all the right notes for his "base" and for his super-rich funders.

Proof that the modern GOP loves a complete and utter fuckup.

42 Destro  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:03:38pm

re: #9 Buck

The "accomplishments of the people of this nation" are not fantastic because they are Jews.

Correct, Israel's accomplishments as a nation are not because their religion is Jewish. It is not because the Israelis started off as Westerners/Europeans and were educated in the Western/European model of science, education, jurisprudence, political system.

43 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:05:07pm

Today's Spanish lesson from my Colombian SIL.

Image: 217851_371114739624072_900687737_n.jpg

44 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:09:21pm

re: #37 Charles Johnson

Testing the popup comment with code segments.

45 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:14:17pm

re: #26 blueraven

Here is one at the link

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

there was another one when he was referring to Olympic athletes

No that's not it. This is after Obama's speech. The ones I saw were before, where he said the same thing as Obama.

46 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:23:27pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

The degree to which economic success depends on culture is a debate that's perfectly valid, but for a presidential candidate to bring it up in such a ham-handed pandering manner is nothing but a self-inflicted foot-shot.

An honest debate about the effect of culture would concede that politics and economics are poles around which social structure and group-ideation bend. You can't talk about any region without referencing how it's local culture has been changed by the in- and out-flow of money and resources...purchasing power and trade correspond to flow of ideas and opportunities to consume novel experiences. When you've got a region with a long history of being administered by non-native power structures, you look at how that warps identity, ideology, and material culture.

Mitt--and others--trying to define "culture" as some kind social phlogiston...causing by not affected by economy or the political stamps of the larger regions...are engaging in intellectual dishonesty.

47 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:26:30pm

re: #46 The Ghost of a Flea

social phlogiston

No sooner seen than stolen. BWAHAHAHAHA!

48 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:31:44pm

I mean, you can not like door to door salesmen, telemarketers, e-mail spammers and not be bigoted.


big·ot
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

49 prairiefire  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:31:54pm

So does anyone else get the implication from Romney is that Palestinian culture is inferior? Anybody else hear that whistle?

50 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:35:27pm

I mean, the people of Great Britain don’t even like the National Health Service!

did you ask the national review, rushbo?

Britain’s Conservative prime minister, after all, often talks “of how proud we in Britain are of the NHS.” Just as with Medicare in the U.S., British politicians who talk of dismantling the NHS get hammered in the polls. (Despite Her Majesty’s Government’s surprise announcement this week of incremental market-oriented reforms to the program, the Tories under David Cameron have repeatedly pledged to preserve its funding.)

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

(the national review writer concludes that britain's attachement to the national health is some kind of sick addiction syndrome, but he doesn't deny it)

51 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:36:13pm

re: #49 prairiefire

So does anyone else get the implication from Romney is that Palestinian culture is inferior? Anybody else hear that whistle?

Only if you measure such things in dollars.

Hmm...

52 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:42:32pm

re: #40 wrenchwench

WW, if the culture/environment/sucess thing is of interest to you, see this (from the when I had time to write days)

The Mystery Of The Invisible Palestinian Middle Class

53 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:43:01pm

re: #49 prairiefire

So does anyone else get the implication from Romney is that Palestinian culture is inferior? Anybody else hear that whistle.

I'm not sure the whistle is just about Palestine.

Romney's kept up a general theme of "there are wealth creators, and there's the ungrateful people that hold them back and thus make society weaker."

This just seems continuous with that larger mindset...particularly given how much detail about the economic situation of the Palestinian Arabs is glossed over. Wealth is only a matter of drive and bootstraps, even when under embargo.

54 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:46:32pm

Romney Doubles Down: Economically Successful Countries Are Culturally Superior

To contextualize Romney’s comparison — which actually underestimated the disparity between Israel’s GDP of US$31,000 to the West Bank and Gaza’s US$1,500 — the campaign offered his next line as proof that he did not target Palestinians: “And that is also between other countries that are near or next to each other. Chile and Ecuador, Mexico and the United States.”

This defense underscores the fundamental tone-deafness of the comparison. To give the full context, Romney discussed two economic theories, one attributing success to the physical characteristics of the land, while another attributes it to culture. He argued that the successes of Israel, the U.S. and Chile can be attributed to strong cultures; conversely, the geographically similar Palestinian, Ecuadorean and Mexican economies are the result of a poorer culture.

The “culture” argument doesn’t merely imply that poorer economies somehow deserve their fate due to an inferior value system. It makes generalizations about the characters of both populations. Abraham Diskin, a political scientist professor from Tel Aviv pointed out, “You can understand this remark in several ways. You can say it’s anti-Semitic. ‘Jews and money.’”

55 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:47:13pm

As you come here and you see the G.D.P. per capita

mitt acts like the last 60 years of israeli history is a total blank slate to him, as if israel was a suburb of minneapolis or something...

56 Digital Display  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:48:10pm

re: #46 The Ghost of a Flea

Nice post..This is a very complex issue that Pols always try to distill to common ideas that lack depth.
I have very little knowledge of Poly-Sci and history and never claimed otherwise. I'm a simple man in those matters. I have always tried to bring a common sense approach to my postings here.
Culture is a complex and many faceted diamond to National Politics and identity.
Maybe like when the Nazis bombed and destroyed Rotterdam and 6 weeks later there were Nazi Rallies in Amsterdam or Saddam receiving 100% of the vote in Iraq and nobody in the world believing it.
How then do we really understand culture?
I don't get it..But I think if the Palestinians want a better life and be an emerging Nation then they need to listen to a better Angels sitting on their right shoulder whispering visions
It was the best of times. It was the worst of times.. They need better leadership and vision for the future.

57 aagcobb  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:48:37pm

re: #50 engineer cat

I mean, the people of Great Britain don’t even like the National Health Service!

did you ask the national review, rushbo?

Britain’s Conservative prime minister, after all, often talks “of how proud we in Britain are of the NHS.” Just as with Medicare in the U.S., British politicians who talk of dismantling the NHS get hammered in the polls. (Despite Her Majesty’s Government’s surprise announcement this week of incremental market-oriented reforms to the program, the Tories under David Cameron have repeatedly pledged to preserve its funding.)

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

(the national review writer concludes that britain's attachement to the national health is some kind of sick addiction syndrome, but he doesn't deny it)

Rush doesn't have to ask anyone anything, because he already knows it all. What he doesn't know, he can make up, because Rush is Right!

58 andres  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:49:10pm

re: #49 prairiefire

So does anyone else get the implication from Romney is that Palestinian culture is inferior? Anybody else hear that whistle?

I heard no whistle there.

More like a bullhorn.

59 freetoken  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:49:35pm

re: #54 Kragar

He argued that the successes of Israel, the U.S. and Chile can be attributed to strong cultures; conversely, the geographically similar Palestinian, Ecuadorean and Mexican economies are the result of a poorer culture.

Nothing quite like fitting one's second foot into one's mouth, is there?

Next thing you know he'll be lamenting how Mexico harbors refugees from the US... oh... wait...

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:50:01pm

re: #1 Kragar

" Romney never said the words “Jewish culture.”"

" I come here and I look out over this city and consider the accomplishments of the people of this nation"

So what nation and city was Mitt talking about at the time?

Morons.

Jerusalem, and Israel as a whole, do not have a single culture, and many of the cultures represented within the nation are not Jewish.

Not that I expect Mitt Romney to keep track of stuff like that.

61 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:50:14pm

re: #58 andres

I heard no whistle there.

More like a bullhorn.

62 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:50:31pm

re: #54 Kragar

Romney Doubles Down: Economically Successful Countries Are Culturally Superior

“You can understand this remark in several ways. You can say it’s anti-Semitic. ‘Jews and money.’”

well it does remind me of those ostensibly well meaning people who tell me how much they like how jewish families like mine "teach their children all about finance and investment from a very young age"

63 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:53:01pm

re: #42 Destro

Correct, Israel's accomplishments as a nation are not because their religion is Jewish. It is not because the Israelis started off as Westerners/Europeans and were educated in the Western/European model of science, education, jurisprudence, political system.

So, what was it?

64 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:58:01pm

re: #54 Kragar

Romney Doubles Down: Economically Successful Countries Are Culturally Superior

Of course, no specifics are given about what makes one set of cultures "strong" and the others "weak."

I think Mitt should be pressed for details. As should anyone else who says something like this. Because, as it stands this is a meaningless statement just shy of GodDidIt in terms of its actual power to explain.

65 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:59:26pm

re: #42 Destro

Correct, Israel's accomplishments as a nation are not because their religion is Jewish. It is not because the Israelis started off as Westerners/Europeans and were educated in the Western/European model of science, education, jurisprudence, political system.

half of them came from north africa and the middle east, and the other half were refugees from central and eastern europe

66 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 3:59:58pm

re: #48 engineer cat

I mean, you can not like door to door salesmen, telemarketers, e-mail spammers and not be bigoted.

big·ot
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Good definition, but it raises the question I was really trying to ask in the first place:

If someone considers homosexuality a sin but that belief does NOT in any way reflect how they treat gay people, are they a bigot?

67 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:00:36pm

I suppose one could argue that the Taliban culture is "strong". It will probably run Afghanistan again.

68 allegro  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:02:59pm

re: #64 The Ghost of a Flea

Of course, no specifics are given about what makes one set of cultures "strong" and the others "weak."

Coming from Mitt, I think the answer to that question is pretty clear. One word: money. That seems to be the only factor of importance to him regardless of the subject. Abortion? Wrong... unless there's money in it for him. Jobs? Only if they make money for him. Health care? Only when there's profit in it. Ad nauseum, with an emphasis on nauseum.

69 allegro  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:04:58pm

re: #66 dragonfire1981

Good definition, but it raises the question I was really trying to ask in the first place:

If someone considers homosexuality a sin but that belief does NOT in any way reflect how they treat gay people, are they a bigot?

If someone considers homosexual acts sinful, they may choose to not partake in them. If they consider homosexual individuals as "less than" due to their proclivities or activities, it's bigotry, IMO.

70 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:09:25pm

re: #66 dragonfire1981

Good definition, but it raises the question I was really trying to ask in the first place:

If someone considers homosexuality a sin but that belief does NOT in any way reflect how they treat gay people, are they a bigot?

what does it mean when you say "considers homosexuality a sin"? what are the implications of that statement? if people practice homosexuality, are they therefore "sinful"? is that the same kind of sinfulness as, say, murder or rape? is it a kind of abstract sinfulness that doesn't mean they are therefore bad people at all but merely that they will burn in hell for eternity? do you feel that the fact that what they are doing is "sinful" means that they might therefore have other moral flaws and should not be trusted around children? if other people who are not gay don't agree with you that homosexuality is a sin, will those people burn in hell as well for countermanding the word of the scriptures and not condemning sinful behavior?

also, note that the word "intolerant" is used in all of the dictionary definitions

71 Patricia Kayden  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:14:25pm

Wonder if when he's elected President, Romney will tell Black Americans that the reason so many are poor is that their culture is inferior to that of White Americans. After the NAACP speech, he apparently told his supporters (behind closed doors) that Blacks wanted something for nothing and that's why they supported the ACA.
He seems to have no problem with telling "the truth" to cater to his supporters. Nasty man.

72 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:16:21pm

re: #54 Kragar

Romney Doubles Down: Economically Successful Countries Are Culturally Superior

Last time I checked, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait were still pretty wealthy.

73 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:17:17pm

re: #72 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

Last time I checked, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait were still pretty wealthy.

SUPERIOR!!!

74 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:18:28pm

re: #72 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

Last time I checked, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait were still pretty wealthy.

Or China.

75 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:18:46pm

re: #72 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

Last time I checked, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait were still pretty wealthy.

i knew letting wimmen drive wuz a bad idea

76 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:20:37pm

re: #66 dragonfire1981

Good definition, but it raises the question I was really trying to ask in the first place:

If someone considers homosexuality a sin but that belief does NOT in any way reflect how they treat gay people, are they a bigot?

I guess it depends on the degree of sin they ascribe, venal or mortal. Is it on the scale of a Christian wearing dissimilar fibers or eating shellfish (not even enforced under the supersession of mosaic law doctrine.) Or is it on the level of murder?

Basically I think that on a significant level it (almost) always impacts the way they treat gay people. Even if in their direct interactions they're paragons when it comes to treating people equally, if they still vote for a second class status with regards to employment, marriage, adoption rights, etc. then they're acting on their bigotry.

Bigotry is irrational intolerance of an idea or concept, usually expressed at the adherents or practitioners of the taboo. The idea is usually equality of race, religion and sexual orientation but people can also be bigoted against vegetarians, cat owners, bicyclists, golfers, and people who like mayonnaise. The fact that people do or don't have a choice in belonging to the proscribed class is irrelevant, all that matters is that the intolerance is irrational and held in spite of the fact that the hated practice doesn't actually harm the hater.

77 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:20:43pm

Zombies Take on Westboro Anti-LGBT Protesters Near Seattle

Counter-demonstrators dressed as zombies outnumbered protesters from the Westboro Baptist Church at a military base near DuPont, Washington over the weekend.

Melissa Neace, 27, launched a Facebook group to organize the zombies event after she learned that the radical ant-LGBT church would be picketing Joint Base Lewis-McChord near Seattle.

"We wanted to turn something negative around, into something people could laugh at and poke fun at," Neace explained to The News Tribune. "It was the easiest way to divert attention from something so hateful."

Over 200 people committed to attending the event on Saturday, which she called "Zombie’ing Westboro Baptist Church AWAY from Fort Lewis!"

78 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:22:36pm

Kim Kardashian is culturally superior to Sarah Palin based on their measured success.

79 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:24:16pm

re: #37 Charles Johnson

And by the way, a cool technique for checking to see if a directory contains any files and read a list of those files for further processing, in one move:

if FILES=$(ls *.css 2> /dev/null); then for NAME in $FILES; do echo -e "${NAME}" donefi

I hope you realize I'm stealing all your stuff.

80 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:25:40pm

re: #79 b_sharp

I hope you realize I'm stealing all your stuff.

real pgmrs don't type, they only cut and paste

81 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:26:50pm

[Link: xkcd.com...]

82 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:27:44pm

Measured off of personal wealth, Larry Flynt is culturally superior to Pat Robertson.

83 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:28:24pm

re: #80 engineer cat

real pgmrs don't type, they only cut and paste

Objects my friend, objects!

84 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:29:21pm

This is fun.

85 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:30:41pm

re: #72 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

Last time I checked, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait were still pretty wealthy.

Until somebody invents a properly functioning solar panel. Dubai might survive as a financial center but the rest of the region will be fucked within a generation or two.

86 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:34:05pm

Kevin Swanson Nostalgic for Time when Homosexuals faced Death Penalty, Wants 'Miss Piggy on a Bun' for Chick-fil-A Decision

Swanson: A Christian perspective ultimately brought the death penalty upon homosexuality between roughly 350 AD and roughly 1850 or so, for about 1,500 years that form of life had pretty much been eliminated except here and there, it was in the closet, but it was almost unheard of for over 1,000 years, until recently. Of course, now you have a massive, massive increase in this kind of thing.

Swanson: I say this is a really bad idea for somebody to stand up against the laws of God. Realize that this is a brave venture, this has been about a 30 year plan, a 40 year plan maybe, to completely consume America with a pro-homosexual agenda, and I just don’t think it’s going to last, I think you are going to see Jesus Christ coming up against this kind of thing, as we have said already about the Joe Paterno case.

Buehner: It’s pretty obvious to anyone who’s on looking that tolerance only runs one direction, you only can tolerate gays, you can’t tolerate those who don’t support gays.

Swanson: And Kermit the Frog is not eating Chick-fil-A either.

Buehner: No, they’re pulling out. Chick-fil-A had an association with the Muppets, a Happy Meals kind of thing. But Kermit the Frog doesn’t want to be there anymore, turns out that Kermit is not that interested in Miss Piggy, maybe he’s interested in another frog.

Swanson: Maybe Dan Cathy should consider doing a frog filet for one of the sandwiches.

Buehner: A frog filet?

Swanson: A frog filet, by commemoration of Kermit the Frog pulling out of his support for Chick-fil-A. Dave, you know that Sesame Street and the Muppets are going to take the sodomy route. I don’t know, do they support NAMBLA? I’m not sure, we should ask, we should ask if the Muppets support NAMBLA.

Buehner: I don’t think the frog filet will sell, just a little marketing advice, I think Miss Piggy on a bun, that’s a better bet, the winner.

Swanson: Miss Piggy on a bun, that sounds good, a fried pig on a bun.

Buehner: Sausage, a little bacon.

Swanson: Piggy on a bun. Well folks, it’s good news we have some organizations like Chick-fil-A.

87 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:35:27pm

re: #54 Kragar

Romney Doubles Down: Economically Successful Countries Are Culturally Superior

Funny that: Country by GDP/capita

1 Qatar 102,943 2011
2 Luxembourg 80,119 2011
3 Singapore 59,711 2011
4 Norway 53,471 2011
5 Brunei 49,384 2011
— Hong Kong 49,137 2011
6 United States 48,387 2011
7 United Arab Emirates 48,158 2011
8 Switzerland 43,370 2011
9 Netherlands 42,183 2011
10 Austria 41,822 2011

Top country is Arab.
Fourth is 'socialist'
It's a pretty diverse group of countries.

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:35:49pm

re: #78 Kragar

Kim Kardashian is culturally superior to Sarah Palin based on their measured success.

I could be persuaded to agree with that. Kim seems to be nicer to people as well.

89 nines09  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:35:55pm

Mitt has had his foot in his mouth so many times on this overseas tour fundraising jaunt, he might have hoof and mouth disease.

90 blueraven  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:36:16pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Until somebody invents a properly functioning solar panel. Dubai might survive as a financial center but the rest of the region will be fucked within a generation or two.

I am sure the entire Arab world appreciates your predictions.
Curious, what is going to happen in Europe?

91 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:37:54pm

re: #86 Kragar

Kevin Swanson Nostalgic for Time when Homosexuals faced Death Penalty, Wants 'Miss Piggy on a Bun' for Chick-fil-A Decision

[snip]
I don’t know, do they support NAMBLA? I’m not sure, we should ask, we should ask if the Muppets support NAMBLA.

That's silly, they support PETA.

92 freetoken  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:39:01pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Until somebody invents a properly functioning solar panel. ...

Um... current PV solar is "properly functioning".

The reality is that only a certain percentage of the photons falling in any given area will give up their existence to move electrons around in a material, in most cases silicon.

Incremental improvements have come about and the move to using amorphous form of Si vs. crystalline, various doping, etc. are useful but small improvements.

PV solar is just more expensive than thermal solar or the use of ancient photosynthetic solar (i.e., fossil fuels), because the material used is more difficult to manufacture.

Besides, Saudi's population is exploding so quickly that their per capita wealth has likely peaked. The increased internal consumption of energy will eventually push out the foreign market.

93 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:39:14pm

re: #78 Kragar

Kim Kardashian is culturally superior to Sarah Palin based on their measured success.

Boobs.

94 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:41:08pm

re: #93 b_sharp

Boobs.

95 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:41:15pm

re: #92 freetoken

Um... current PV solar is "properly functioning".

The reality is that only a certain percentage of the photons falling in any given area will give up their existence to move electrons around in a material, in most cases silicon.

Incremental improvements have come about and the move to using amorphous form of Si vs. crystalline, various doping, etc. are useful but small improvements.

PV solar is just more expensive than thermal solar or the use of ancient photosynthetic solar (i.e., fossil fuels), because the material used is more difficult to manufacture.

Besides, Saudi's population is exploding so quickly that their per capita wealth has likely peaked. The increased internal consumption of energy will eventually push out the foreign market.

here's also the issue of battery storage. We'll get there someday.

96 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:41:35pm

re: #87 b_sharp

Funny that: Country by GDP/capita

1 Qatar 102,943 2011
2 Luxembourg 80,119 2011
3 Singapore 59,711 2011
4 Norway 53,471 2011
5 Brunei 49,384 2011
— Hong Kong 49,137 2011
6 United States 48,387 2011
7 United Arab Emirates 48,158 2011
8 Switzerland 43,370 2011
9 Netherlands 42,183 2011
10 Austria 41,822 2011

Top country is Arab.
Fourth is 'socialist'
It's a pretty diverse group of countries.

And Singapore's government isn't exactly enlightened, no matter what they say it is (People's Republic of China, Parliamentary Representative Government Singapore). It's been ruled by one party since independence. Where else have we seen that?

97 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:41:54pm

re: #90 blueraven

I am sure the entire Arab world appreciates your predictions.
Curious, what is going to happen in Europe?

It's going to rain.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:43:31pm

re: #97 b_sharp

It's going to rain.

That will make the solar panels difficult to use.

99 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:44:17pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

That will make the solar panels difficult to use.

But they'll be clean.

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:44:32pm

Comment from a guy on Harry's Place: What’s he going to tell the Poles? That they would have had a happier history if they hadn’t been dumb enough to have set up their country between Russia and Germany?

101 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:45:51pm

re: #100 SanFranciscoZionist

Comment from a guy on Harry's Place: What’s he going to tell the Poles? That they would have had a happier history if they hadn’t been dumb enough to have set up their country between Russia and Germany?

Mitt: "History has vindicated your preemptive strike against the Nazis."

102 freetoken  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:47:38pm

School rejects 3-year-old because parents are gay, but still gets federal funds

A 3-year-old was kept from enrolling at a religious-based school because he has two fathers, according to a letter sent by the school.

Action 7 News got a copy of the letter that Hope Christian School sent to the family.It says in part: “Same gender couples are inconsistent with scriptural lifestyle and biblical teachings,” and "Home life doesn’t reflect the school’s belief of what a biblical family lifestyle is.”

The letter also says since the school is private, it is free from "excessive government interference in matters of religion."
The school will receive more than $60,000 in federal tax dollars this school year.

Hope’s administrators are happy to put their hand out and take money from taxpayers, and then turn around and tell taxpayers that their three-year-old isn’t welcome because of his parents’ sexual orientation.

Definitely. They'll take the money, then whine about evil liberals forcing them to pay their taxes and about being victimized by big government.

103 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:47:53pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Until somebody invents a properly functioning solar panel. Dubai might survive as a financial center but the rest of the region will be fucked within a generation or two.

Properly functioning?

104 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:49:41pm

re: #103 Achilles Tang

Properly functioning?

Efficient and affordable enough to replace fossil fuels. We're getting close but we're not there yet.

105 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:50:33pm

Dennis Sollmann, the owner of Sollmann Electric Company, appears in a Romney web ad released Monday morning that plays off the president's now infamous "you didn't build that" line. [...]

Yes, yes. Another self-made man who doesn't need any government help. But whose company has, as it turns out, gotten millions of dollars worth of government contracts, in this case mostly to help build public schools.

They just don't get it.

106 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:50:40pm

I just want to say thanks guys for giving me thoughtful, intelligent responses on the whole homosexuality/sin thing. That's the kind of topic that would have been instant flame war material at other websites.

One of the many reasons I love LGF is that people on here know how to have actual conversations without resorting to petty name calling and insults to those whose opinions differ from their own.

I am a Christian, I make no bones about that, but I don't consider myself someone who hates gays. If a gay person needed a shirt, I would give them the one off my back. If they needed food, I would feed them. If they needed shelter, I would find it for them.

Gay or not, we are all humans and we are all entitled to the same dignity and respect.

107 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:51:55pm

On a much lighter note, I just thought of a great idea for a bumper sticker/t-shirt/whatever:

Romney/Gaffe 2012 World Tour

108 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:52:22pm

re: #104 Killgore Trout

Efficient and affordable enough to replace fossil fuels. We're getting close but we're not there yet.

We are if you consider what the long term obvious trend in oil prices will be. Clearly now is the time to go all in investing in the inevitable transition.

109 Destro  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:53:23pm

re: #65 engineer cat

half of them came from north africa and the middle east, and the other half were refugees from central and eastern europe

It does not matter because the educational system and the structural system of Israel was based on European/Western models not Middle Eastern or North African, etc. See Japan's adoption of the "western model".

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:57:03pm

re: #102 freetoken

School rejects 3-year-old because parents are gay, but still gets federal funds

Hope’s administrators are happy to put their hand out and take money from taxpayers, and then turn around and tell taxpayers that their three-year-old isn’t welcome because of his parents’ sexual orientation.

Definitely. They'll take the money, then whine about evil liberals forcing them to pay their taxes and about being victimized by big government.

My advice to these gentlemen is to enroll their son in Catholic school.

111 Destro  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 4:59:20pm

re: #63 SanFranciscoZionist

So, what was it?

I recommend the following books:

Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies

And

Civilization: The West and the Rest

It's about western civilization and the science and the secular way of life associated with it the Western educated Israeli settlers and the socialist system (also a western invention) that they initiated explains best the success of Israel.

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:00:24pm

re: #111 Destro

I recommend the following books:

Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies

And

Civilization: The West and the Rest

It's about western civilization and the science and the secular way of life associated with it the Western educated Israeli settlers and the socialist system (also a western invention) that they initiated explains best the success of Israel.

Western civilization: what doesn't actually succeed in killing you may give some of you access to schooling models.

113 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:00:28pm

re: #111 Destro

So, when you said:

It is not because the Israelis started off as Westerners/Europeans and were educated in the Western/European model of science, education, jurisprudence, political system.

You meant the opposite?

114 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:00:41pm

This must be a new diplomacy technique I never heard about. Have a problem with a nation just say "they have an inferior culture" and that will make things better. I wonder if Romney would feel compelled to publicly state that Afghanistan and Pakistan has an inferior culture while we rely heavily in their cooperation in the war on terror. Better yet. After going through an invasion and subsequent nation building by the USA does he feel we've left behind an "inferior culture" in Iraq?

115 freetoken  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:02:10pm

Tony Martin, romantic crooner and star of Hollywood musicals, has died in Los Angeles at 98

Tony Martin, the romantic singer who appeared in movie musicals from the 1930s to the 1950s and sustained a career in records, television and nightclubs from the Depression era into the 21st century, has died. He was 98.

and the one I prefer:

116 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:03:36pm

re: #104 Killgore Trout

Efficient and affordable enough to replace fossil fuels. We're getting close but we're not there yet.

Yes we are there, and improvements will continue. The obstacles are the same as with anything new, the status quo has a lot of momentum, and we have to pay other countries to make the stuff for us, because they can see further ahead than we can. While location has an effect, a typical home can power itself, with energy efficient design, for perhaps $20k investment and a payback of as little as 10 years with a lifetime of 30 (meaning positive income after 10), not taking account a probable significant increase in cost for conventional electricity in that time.

However, we don't typically plan to live in homes for 30 years, let alone 10, which is why I never made that investment in my home.

117 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:04:49pm

re: #114 Gus

Speaking of culture, Colorado has Boulder.

Just sayin'

//

118 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:06:39pm

re: #106 dragonfire1981

I just want to say thanks guys for giving me thoughtful, intelligent responses on the whole homosexuality/sin thing. That's the kind of topic that would have been instant flame war material at other websites.

One of the many reasons I love LGF is that people on here know how to have actual conversations without resorting to petty name calling and insults to those whose opinions differ from their own.

I am a Christian, I make no bones about that, but I don't consider myself someone who hates gays. If a gay person needed a shirt, I would give them the one off my back. If they needed food, I would feed them. If they needed shelter, I would find it for them.

Gay or not, we are all humans and we are all entitled to the same dignity and respect.

That's what we're here for, to annoy the hell out of people.

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:07:26pm

re: #114 Gus

This must be a new diplomacy technique I never heard about. Have a problem with a nation just say "they have an inferior culture" and that will make things better. I wonder if Romney would feel compelled to publicly state that Afghanistan and Pakistan has an inferior culture while we rely heavily in their cooperation in the war on terror. Better yet. After going through an invasion and subsequent nation building by the USA does he feel we've left behind an "inferior culture" in Iraq?

Luckily, he will never be President, so we'll never have to worry about what he might say to Pakistan.

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:07:56pm

We've just got to get through Poland.

He's going to make a kielbasa joke. I can feel it in my bones.

121 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:08:31pm

Shorter Mitt Romney: You Jews are awesome with money and no need to feel any sympathy for the poor because they are culturally inferior.

Willard simply reveled himself as a Social Darwinist. He's rich (and we aren't) because he's culturally superior, not because his dad was rich too.

122 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:08:33pm

re: #113 Obdicut

So, when you said:

You meant the opposite?

He's wrong both ways.

123 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:08:52pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

Luckily, he will never be President, so we'll never have to worry about what he might say to Pakistan.

Well. I hope you're right because right now I'm looking at a horse race.

124 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:08:59pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

It is his election to lose.

And he will.

125 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:10:23pm

re: #114 Gus

This must be a new diplomacy technique I never heard about. Have a problem with a nation just say "they have an inferior culture" and that will make things better. I wonder if Romney would feel compelled to publicly state that Afghanistan and Pakistan has an inferior culture while we rely heavily in their cooperation in the war on terror. Better yet. After going through an invasion and subsequent nation building by the USA does he feel we've left behind an "inferior culture" in Iraq?

Hell why not stop at nations? Why not individual people? Willard is rich and we aren't because he's culturally superior to the rest of us not rich people.

126 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:10:54pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

Luckily, he will never be President, so we'll never have to worry about what he might say to Pakistan.

He's going to come way too close to winning for my comfort.

127 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:11:30pm

re: #125 moderatelyradicalliberal

That is exactly what many rich people believe

Really

128 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:12:11pm

re: #125 moderatelyradicalliberal

Hell why not stop at nations? Why not individual people? Willard is rich and we aren't because he's culturally superior to the rest of us not rich people.

Or states. What about Mississippi and Louisiana? Or perhaps Appalachia. Would Mitt Romney say that West Virginia has a high rate of poverty because they are culturally inferior to neighboring and more prosperous states?

129 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:12:57pm

re: #127 researchok

That is exactly what many rich people believe

Really

You people! //

130 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:14:36pm

re: #128 Gus

Or states. What about Mississippi and Louisiana? Or perhaps Appalachia. Would Mitt Romney say that West Virginia has a high rate of poverty because they are culturally inferior to neighboring and more prosperous states?

San Francisco, with high average income and amazing property value, must have a truly magnificent culture.

131 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:14:48pm

I'm also thinking about WWII. First think of the rich and deep culture of Germany and Japan. Yet look at what came out of those nations along with the other Axis powers.

132 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:14:50pm

re: #123 Gus

Well. I hope you're right because right now I'm looking at a horse race.

You are looking at national polls. You have to look at the electoral college. The electoral college is Obama's to lose. Try Nate Silver's blog. He got everything right back in 2008 and he's got Obama at a 67% chance of winning. Willard may get FL, NC and definitely IN.

[Link: fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com...]

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:14:58pm

re: #121 moderatelyradicalliberal

Shorter Mitt Romney: You Jews are awesome with money and no need to feel any sympathy for the poor because they are culturally inferior.

Willard simply reveled himself as a Social Darwinist. He's rich (and we aren't) because he's culturally superior, not because his dad was rich too.

It's good he's talking to the folks at home, because it's a moronic compliment. Israel might well feel pride at an economy that outshines the rest of the region, but the situation with the territories is nowhere near normal or stable enough to consider the Palestinians as anything so mundane as economic rivals.

You want to pay a compliment? Point out that Israel's GDP per capita is twice that of Lebanon.

134 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:15:16pm

re: #128 Gus

Or states. What about Mississippi and Louisiana? Or perhaps Appalachia. Would Mitt Romney say that West Virginia has a high rate of poverty because they are culturally inferior to neighboring and more prosperous states?

Yes.

Maybe not out loud, but that is where he is coming from.

He is not alone- many of the Kennedy's exhibit the same behaviors. They are just smart enough to stay low key for the most part.

Rich is a culture unto itself.

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:15:48pm

re: #126 moderatelyradicalliberal

He's going to come way too close to winning for my comfort.

He's doomed like the dodo. That's my call right now. Mitt is going down.

I may change my mind later in the race, but right now I call it for Obama, with some margin to spare.

136 freetoken  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:15:57pm

Looks like the dogs heard the whistle:

To: BarnacleCenturion
Why can't we apply this same prosperity to Gaza? Why can't we apply this same prosperity to the West Bank?” Gingrich said.

It's easy. Just get rid of the Pali's. Then watch the milk and honey flow.

2 posted on Mon Jul 30 2012 16:28:25 GMT-0700 (PDT) by bigheadfred

---

See also [Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

137 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:16:36pm

re: #130 Obdicut

San Francisco, with high average income and amazing property value, must have a truly magnificent culture.

It must be their fashion sense.

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:16:40pm

re: #130 Obdicut

San Francisco, with high average income and amazing property value, must have a truly magnificent culture.

We do. Also, great values, and the best dim sum outside Hong Kong.

139 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:16:48pm

re: #131 Gus

I'm also thinking about WWII. First think of the rich and deep culture of Germany and Japan. Yet look at what came out of those nations along with the other Axis powers.

Exactly. Plenty of advanced nations have collectively gone nuts.

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:17:04pm

re: #131 Gus

I'm also thinking about WWII. First think of the rich and deep culture of Germany and Japan. Yet look at what came out of those nations along with the other Axis powers.

But see, they had the money for the war because of their superior culture.

///

141 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:18:11pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

We do. Also, great values, and the best dim sum outside Hong Kong.

And you had Sister Boom Boom.

The product of an affluent society, for sure'
/

142 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:18:52pm

Boy, Mitt sure walked into that one...

143 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:18:54pm

re: #134 researchok

Yes.

Maybe not out loud, but that is where he is coming from.

He is not alone- many of the Kennedy's exhibit the same behaviors. They are just smart enough to stay low key for the most part.

Rich is a culture unto itself.

It's what one could say in quiet company. In private. But certainly not in a speech. Romney's a bit of a bull in a China shop when it comes to diplomacy.

144 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:19:23pm

"China shop" not "China chop." Woops!

145 freetoken  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:19:55pm

It's over... he's going for the $$, just as egged on by the studios:

Peter Jackson says ‘The Hobbit’ to be split into three movies

The film version of J.R.R. Tolkien’s “The Hobbit” will be split into three movies, rather than two as originally planned, New Zealand director Peter Jackson said Tuesday.

Jackson, who was responsible for the Oscar-winning adaption of Tolkien’s “The Lord of the Rings” trilogy, said be began considering the possibility of three films after watching an early cut of the first Hobbit movie.

“We were really pleased with the way the story was coming together, in particular, the strength of the characters and the cast who have brought them to life,” he said on his Facebook page.

[...]

The decision to add an extra movie follows a recent Hollywood trend of splitting a single book into multiple movies to maximise box office returns from blockbuster franchises.

[...]

146 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:20:08pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

He's doomed like the dodo. That's my call right now. Mitt is going down.

I may change my mind later in the race, but right now I call it for Obama, with some margin to spare.

I think Obama's electoral win will be pretty significant, but the white Depp South vote + Texas will go 80-90% for Willard giving him more of the popular vote than John McCain.

Seriously, I want Mitt's passport confiscated until after he loses the election so he can't leave the country and cause an international incident.

147 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:20:55pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know about the margin, but I believe the independents, when time comes will vote for Obama. They may hold their noses (there is not enough lipstick to make his economic policies look good), but they won't vote for Romney

148 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:21:34pm

re: #144 Gus

Boulder Boy
//

149 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:22:06pm

re: #147 researchok

I don't know about the margin, but I believe the independents, when time comes will vote for Obama. They may hold their noses, but they won't vote for Romney

I also think voter ID laws aside, the minority turn out will be high as well.

150 Destro  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:22:22pm

re: #113 Obdicut

So, when you said:

You meant the opposite?

Oops my bad. Sorry for the typo:

I will try again: Israel is successful (to be more accurate the comparison should be between Israel and other Arab nations since in all fairness Palestinians have been under stress for a long time to say the least) because the Israelis started off as Westerners/Europeans and were educated in the Western/European model of science, education, jurisprudence, political system.

Thanks for catching that and allowing me to correct it.

151 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:23:58pm

re: #148 researchok

Boulder Boy
//

Good ol' Boulder.

//

152 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:24:55pm

re: #151 Gus

Good ol' Boulder.

//

He was as rock solid as they come.

153 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:25:14pm
154 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:25:28pm

re: #151 Gus

I bought the 'Keep Boulder Weird, Buy This Tshirt.

Loved it.

155 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:26:57pm

success

really, how can an evaluation of the worth of any person or society be reduced to some simplistic idea of "success" such as 'ya got it or ya ain't'

156 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:28:07pm

Anyone else noticed that (not surprisingly) Mitt just happens to be acting more like a business executive than a politician?

I mean think about it, what are some of the major things executives are known to do:

- Trash their competition at every available opportunity
- Say what you need to/do what you need to/lie how you need to get people to buy what you're selling
- Kiss the butts of those customers and/or investors that are most lucrative
- Focus on short term success regardless of long term effects
- Operate on a mindset that, with enough money any competitor can be bought out/silenced/forced out of business/etc.

Not that politicians don't do these things, but to me he seems a lot more like CEO Romney than prospective CIC Romney.

157 freetoken  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:28:42pm

That dolt Gingrich ... so I went and checked the full Politico piece that the freepers glommed onto...

Asked about Mitt Romney’s remarks at an Israeli fundraiser that drew rebuke from Palestinian officials, Gingrich said there was evidence that culture was causing a disparity in wealth not only in the Middle East, but around the world.

“The United Nations camps have been terrorist training grounds. And I think that they're a disaster and have taught socialism. There is no private property, there is no future, there is no small business, there is no hope, there is no rule of law, and I think you have to start with that,” Gingrich said.

He pointed to a number of nations that have prospered in areas where neighboring nations have not.

“I find it fascinating that nobody wants to ask the question, why is Hong Kong prosperous? Why is Singapore prosperous? Why is Israel prosperous? Why can't we apply this same prosperity to Gaza? Why can't we apply this same prosperity to the West Bank?” Gingrich said.

Adding South Korea to the list of places that have prospered, Gingrich said none of the nations are “welfare states.”

“I think it's fair to say why are some places poor?” Gingrich said. ‘And maybe it's not just because they've been deprived, maybe it's also because they don't have maybe the right habits, the right legal structure, or the right system of encouragement.”

As the commenters over at Politico noticed right away, those nations Newt lists happen to have government run healthcare, and plenty of other government programs to boot. Plus several of those nations/states were "prosperous" at times way before the US ever existed.

But the people to whom Newt is appealing are so stupid they will never stop to check up on what Newt says.

158 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:28:45pm

Jeffrey Goldberg make Mongo very angry!

No doubt.

//

159 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:29:10pm

Actually, Boulder is a fascinating place- real art, good education, whack jobs, brilliant people and even Republicans (I didn't believe it till I saw that myself!)

Other than the Chakra heal you with hot rocks people, the place is actually kind of cool.

And good food, too.

160 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:29:34pm

re: #157 freetoken

That dolt Gingrich ... so I went and checked the full Politico piece that the freepers glommed onto...

As the commenters over at Politico noticed right away, those nations Newt lists happen to have government run healthcare, and plenty of other government programs to boot. Plus several of those nations/states were "prosperous" at times way before the US ever existed.

But the people to whom Newt is appealing are so stupid they will never stop to check up on what Newt says.

The average Canadian is now richer than the average American.

You lose, Newt.

161 Petero1818  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:29:36pm

My belief is that Romney took a germ of an idea from Dan Senor, and screwed it up in a big way. We already have seen Senor's fingerprints on this trip. Dan Senor wrote an interesting book called Start Up Nation. He compared empirical data to show that when compared to other Western Industrialized nations, Israel had a freakishly high rate of successful entrepreneurs and successful corporate start-ups. You can read the book to get an idea of what factors he believed caused such a trend, but rest assured it had NOTHING to do with racial or cultural superiority. NOTHING. Moreover, it was not intended to compare israel with Palestine or any Arab nation. It was meant to compare Israel with the US, Canada, Europe and Japan.
My guess is Romney read an excerpt or the cover and was provided talking points. Unfortunately when he compared Israel to Palestinians in this regard, he was essentially jumping the couch.
Unfortunately for Romney, there really is no substitute for an intellectual curiosity about the world. My guess is Romney has none, other than in so far as it impacts his investment decisions.

162 freetoken  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:30:16pm

re: #160 dragonfire1981

You lose, Newt.

Newt's lost so many times he now thinks it's winning.

163 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:32:44pm

Tweeting comments, ie Ctrl Y (correct?) not working for me. Thanks Gus for your comments.

164 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:33:24pm

re: #163 Stanley Sea

Tweeting comments, ie Ctrl Y (correct?) not working for me. Thanks Gus for your comments.

Saw that. YW. ;)

165 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:33:56pm
166 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:35:12pm

re: #165 Gus

[Embedded content]

Et tu, Bibi?

167 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:35:32pm

Netanyahu would never win a Republican nomination. Hypothetically speaking.

168 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:36:23pm

Feel better and worse on the steroids. Am just so tired and can't seem to get much sleep.

Obligatory daily beebee kitteh!

you?

169 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:36:48pm

re: #165 Gus

[Embedded content]

Cutting spending AND increasing taxes....why that sounds like...Fiscal Responsibility!!

170 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:51:22pm
171 efuseakay  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:51:33pm

I'd imagine if we gave away the same amount of US taxpayer $ to the Palestinians as we did to Israel, their "culture" would be much better off today.

172 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:52:58pm

re: #162 freetoken

Newt's lost so many times he now thinks it's winning.

"Been Dumb So Long It Looks Like Smart To Me"

173 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:54:15pm

re: #172 engineer cat

"Been Dumb So Long It Looks Like Smart To Me"

Newt, Mitt, Huckabee . . .

How can anyone go thru life with these names and not be pathetic?

174 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:54:23pm

re: #168 ggt

Feel better and worse on the steroids. Am just so tired and can't seem to get much sleep.

Obligatory daily beebee kitteh!

you?

Meds can present a catch 22.

175 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:57:29pm

re: #170 Amory Blaine

Walkin' the walk

I like the sentiment, but the federal budget is a fiscal document. The only morality that comes with such a document are best described in the word "balance."

Frankly, IMHO, the choice to provide entitlements is fiscally prudent. It's stupid not to, in the long run.

Unless, of course, you want to spend even more money on private prisons . . .

176 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 5:58:58pm

re: #171 efuseakay

I'd imagine if we gave away the same amount of US taxpayer $ to the Palestinians as we did to Israel, their "culture" would be much better off today.

What are the current figures?

177 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:00:03pm

What a loser...

178 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:00:13pm

Good:

Colombian soccer player Lady Andrade got a two-match Olympic ban after punching US player Abby Wambach in the face during a game.

FIFA said its disciplinary committee suspended Andrade from a group match against France on Tuesday and from the quarterfinals, if Colombia advances, according to the Associated Press. Wambach said she was "sucker-punched" in the right eye by Andrade in the 39th minute of a 3-0 win over Colombia on Saturday.

IOC should have kicked her out of the games entirely.

179 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:03:03pm

re: #174 b_sharp

Meds can present a catch 22.

Yeah, a little miffed doc didn't give me antibiotics as well. I ALWAYS get a secondary bacterial infection, without fail. I suspect I'll feel shitty again in a day or two and be back in the office, coughing green stuff.

I should be thankful the primary care doc could get me in today. ENT would have taken a few days.

I usually don't get side effects from this kind of steroid dosage, just am so damn overtired and no one else is home to take care of the dogs . . . .

180 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:03:59pm

re: #177 Gus

What a loser...

[Embedded content]

Yeah, there is some shit going around on fb about the jacket. Stupid news. FLOTUS always has nice shit --advertising for said designer--whatever. We could talk about Nancy Reagan . . . . .

181 simoom  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:07:36pm

[Link: www.politico.com...]

The White House called a report that President Obama called off the raid on Osama bin Laden three times a "fabrication."

In a new book previewed by the Daily Caller, author Richard Miniter alleges that Obama called off the raid three times at the urging of senior advisor Valerie Jarrett, before finally authorizing the mission.

"That is an utter fabrication. It's seems pretty clear that Mr. Miniter doesn't know what he's talking about," White House spokesman Josh Earnest told reporters Monday.

"Ms. Jarrett, like the vast majority of the president's senior staff was not read in on the operation on the mission against Osama bin Laden," Earnest said.

And as the liberal group Media Matters notes, Miniter's report does not square with other reporting on the timeline of the mission. Miniter alleges that Obama called off the operation first in January, but the New Yorker's Nicholas Schmidle reported that the plan to kill bin Laden was not even presented to the president until March.

182 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:09:09pm

Good evening.

183 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:11:20pm

re: #171 efuseakay

The Palestinians will not benefit no matter how much money they get.

The PA and Hamas have been corrupt for years. Billions upon billions of dollars in aid have disappeared. They have built no hospitals or schools (others, including the Israelis) have built them, published no textbooks (though there is money to print Mein Kampf and The Protocols).

The top PA and Hamas leaders have lived live in obscene luxury for decades while the rest of the population struggles.

It has been estimated Arafat himself was worth anywhere from 5-20 billion dollarsat the time of his death

As for American aid to Israel, most of that comes in the form of loan guarantees0 and in fact, Isrqael has never missed a loan payment. The rest is indeed aid- which Israel, unlike virtually every other nation, spends here in the US. They purchase technology, communications equipment, military equipment and so on.

That spending translates into thousands of jobs right here.

184 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:11:34pm

re: #181 simoom

[Link: www.politico.com...]

What a crock all of that was/is. Richard Miniter, friend to Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, and a host of other wingnuts bloggers. He in fact is a wingnut himself. Clowns.

185 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:13:13pm

re: #177 Gus

What a loser...

[Embedded content]

I wonder if they know that she most likely didn't actually but the jacket? Designers like for famous people to wear their shit and they let them wear it for free. Mrs. Obama has made no bones about promoting American designers.

186 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:16:36pm

re: #176 ggt

Palestinians receive the highest per capita aid in the world

See Global Humanitarian Assistance Report

187 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:17:03pm

re: #185 moderatelyradicalliberal

I wonder if they know that she most likely didn't actually but the jacket? Designers like for famous people to wear their shit and they let them wear it for free. Mrs. Obama has made no bones about promoting American designers.

I know. I was thinking the same thing. I doubt they thought about that. They just like to react like monkeys in the zoo.

188 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:18:36pm

re: #186 researchok

Palestinians receive the highest per capita aid in the world

See Global Humanitarian Assistance Report

Yeah, I thought so. Didn't quite understand #171's post.

189 Robert O.  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:21:02pm

It is still a wonder how Romney could so stupidly fluff up another foreign visit. All he had to do was yammer about people living in peace side by side together, perhaps mention something about respect for each others' differences, talk about hope and opportunity (could even borrow from Obama's speech), and say America stands by the effort of all involved in search of peace, and he is done. His staff had weeks to write a speech that hits just the right tone without any hint of controversy. He has a team of people to review every word, and revise, revise, revise. Still, they screwed up!

190 jaunte  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:21:19pm

re: #177 Gus

He's still mad that Romney liked Bryan Fischer better.

191 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:21:32pm

re: #188 ggt

I don't understand either.

See ppg 23, 26, though are more figures to substantiate the reality of aid.

192 macaw  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:22:45pm

[Link: krugman.blogs.nytimes.com...]

MItt Romney’s inability to stay on script is really getting surreal. Today he lavished praise on the Israeli health care system, which has indeed done a fine job of controlling costs while maintaining high quality. But as everyone who knows anything about it quickly pointed out, the secret of Israel’s success is … intense government involvement. It’s a single-payer system; but unlike Medicare, it also sets a budget per capita (adjusted for health status), so that the nonprofit plans are in effect forced to set priorities for treatment and also negotiate hard over provider payments; think of it as price controls plus death panels.

193 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:23:44pm

re: #189 Robert O.

It is still a wonder how Romney could so stupidly fluff up another foreign visit. All he had to do was yammer about people living in peace side by side together, perhaps mention something about respect for each others' differences, talk about hope and opportunity (could even borrow from Obama's speech), and say America stands by the effort of all involved in search of peace, and he is done. His staff had weeks to write a speech that hits just the right tone without any hint of controversy. He has a team of people to review every word, and revise, revise, revise. Still, they screwed up!

I really don't see this as a screw up. This is by design and they're speaking directly to their base. If anything Romney probably didn't go far enough for that crowd.

194 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:25:20pm

Although I'm well aware of the fact that much of cultural critique is repackaged racism but this is also where I part company with multiculturalism. The point isn't that the Israelis are "culturally superior" but that the Palestinians have embraced a culture of death, martyrdom and terrorism. They've fucked themselves by rejecting peace, basic human rights, tolerance and common sense. It's just not reasonable to expect equal outcome from such irrational and self destructive behavior.

195 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:25:32pm

re: #186 researchok

Palestinians receive the highest per capita aid in the world

See Global Humanitarian Assistance Report

Nice link, thanks! I Perused it and thought it showed Palestine #2 under the Sudan.

And why is an Oil Rich country like Iraq #3?

196 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:26:12pm

re: #179 ggt

Yeah, a little miffed doc didn't give me antibiotics as well. I ALWAYS get a secondary bacterial infection, without fail. I suspect I'll feel shitty again in a day or two and be back in the office, coughing green stuff.

I should be thankful the primary care doc could get me in today. ENT would have taken a few days.

I usually don't get side effects from this kind of steroid dosage, just am so damn overtired and no one else is home to take care of the dogs . . .

Brat puppy had better BEHAVE.

197 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:27:40pm

re: #180 ggt

Yeah, there is some shit going around on fb about the jacket. Stupid news. FLOTUS always has nice shit --advertising for said designer--whatever. We could talk about Nancy Reagan . . .

That was different. Nancy wasn't guilty of FLOTUSWB.

198 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:29:40pm

re: #180 ggt

Yeah, there is some shit going around on fb about the jacket. Stupid news. FLOTUS always has nice shit --advertising for said designer--whatever. We could talk about Nancy Reagan . . .

Oh the J. Mendel jacket she wore to Buckingham Palace? Fucking jealous bigots. They'd bitch if she wore something else. Hate em. HATE their hate.

This is beautiful you fucks

199 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:30:03pm

re: #196 Stanley Sea

Brat puppy had better BEHAVE.

Damn right! We have a newer puppy in the neighborhood and he tries to go to her house everytime he goes outside. She is about as big as his head right now, but will end-up being much bigger. We think she is a Lab/GSD mix. Already has long legs and is very, very cute!

200 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:30:44pm

re: #195 ggt

Post war reconstruction, otherwise known as 'nation building'.

201 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:31:58pm

re: #198 Stanley Sea

Oh the J. Mendel jacket she wore to Buckingham Palace? Fucking jealous bigots. They'd bitch if she wore something else. Hate em. HATE their hate.

This is beautiful you fucks

It is beautiful on her, it fits her so well. They bitched when the paparazzi caught her at Target too!

202 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:32:34pm

re: #197 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

That was different. Nancy wasn't guilty of FLOTUSWB.

Yeah, everything WB seems to be a crime to haters.

203 jaunte  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:37:51pm
“As you come here and you see the G.D.P. per capita, for instance, in Israel which is about $21,000, and compare that with the G.D.P. per capita just across the areas managed by the Palestinian Authority, which is more like $10,000 per capita, you notice such a dramatically stark difference in economic vitality,” he said."
......................

"Mr. Romney also understated the difference between per capita G.D.P. by a wide margin, suggesting that Israelis produce about twice what Palestinians do.

In fact, according to an estimate by the Central Intelligence Agency, in 2009 Israel had a per capita G.D.P. of roughly $29,800, while in 2008 — the last year the C.I.A. has numbers on their Web site for the Palestinians — the per capita G.D.P. of the West Bank and Gaza was $2,900."
[Link: thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com...]

I guess when you're casual about insulting people, it's easy to get casual about the facts, too.

204 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:38:00pm

re: #194 Killgore Trout

You have to be careful here.

While what you say is correct, the context is even more important.

The Palestinians (and most of the Arab world, for that matter) are the biggest victims of their leadership's dysfunction.

Imagine a school that gave each student a glass of alcohol every day. Each day, beginning at tender nursery school age, the child was encouraged to drink the beverage that would come to poison his spirit, soul and mind.

Suppose that beverage was from the well aged bottle of anti Semitism.

Suppose also that once that child downed that alcoholic beverage, the teacher refilled that glass with more alcohol. This time, the flavor is religious bigotry directed at non Jews.

Imagine once that glass of alcohol was consumed by young dutiful children, the glass was immediately refilled with the beverage from the bottle of anti western and anti democratic values.

After decades those children, now adults, go home every day, turn on the television and read the newspapers and they are fed more alcohol. They get yet more when their kids come home from school, and share the same familiar poisoned ‘fire water.’ They poison they are fed gets the God’s seal of approval when fed to them from the pulpit- or so they desperately need to believe.

Of course, to keep a drunk or a junkie hooked, it takes an ever increasing amount of poison to induce the same stupor that blinds the drunk or the junkie to his own surroundings and dysfunction. The supply of poison never ends.

After years of such ‘education,’ it would be reasonable to expect that there would be a lot of alcoholics in the Arab world deliberately poisoned by the hate and ideologies of dysfunctional and corrupt leaders. Like alcoholics and substance abusers, they will tell you they ‘have it under control‘ and that they ‘can quit anytime they want.‘ In the Arab world, that translates into, “We really are civilized, it’s only the injustices of others that causes us to behave the way we do. We seek justice.” They are blind to their own dysfunction, they are blind to their own deceit and remain so by embracing hate. The message of far too many is clear:

‘Rid us of Israel,‘ they say and there will be no more need to drink.

‘It is the Jews- rid us of them and we will show you we are just like you,‘ they assure us.

‘Democracy conflicts with out values and culture,‘ they lecture us, as we try to empower them.

‘We are a proud people, too proud to take your help. We would rather wallow in the filth.’

‘If you accord our faith special status, we will have no reason to hate you or hurt you.’

These are the illogical and alcoholic-like induced arguments that emanate from much of the Arab world, every day. Like addicts everywhere, much of that Arab world are unaware of their own stumbling and off balance dysfunction. Like addicts everywhere, the whole world is to blame for their failures, never themselves. It is families suffering and imploding under the weight of the dysfunction and that ‘do not understand‘ them. It is their employer that is being unfair in demanding sobriety at work. ‘I have it under control,‘ is the mantra. Generations have been lost and families and even communities lie in ruin because of ‘I have it under control.‘

Israel is not going away and the chasm between them and the Palestinians grows daily.

As noted, it is they and not the Israelis who are the biggest victims of a dysfunctional leadership.

205 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:39:38pm

Chicken, homemade cajun french fries & brussels. My kitchen (finally released from storage jail) is FANTASTIC. Dog, I'm equipped. Off to enjoy. See ya later.

206 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:39:42pm

re: #202 ggt

Yeah, everything WB seems to be a crime to haters.

Speaking of which, I'm over 2/3 of the way thru the audio version of The Power Broker by Robert Moses. Really disgusted by the manner in which the ghetto/poor minority/crime situation was created --literally created --by this man.

He consulted on urban planning all over the country and the world. He destroyed public transportation in NYC, with (IMHO) the complicity of the Big 3 Automakers. I say this because of what is in the book and knowing that growing up in Detroit in the 70's public transportation was limited to buses and they were about as disgusting as Robert Caro described the subways in NYC.

There was a POV(PBS) years ago that documented GM's specific activities to destroy the public rail system in the US.

Make it hard for the working class to travel and they are stuck.

207 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:43:12pm

Rep. Hanna: Fellow Republicans indulge the party's extreme members too much

Hanna, R-Barneveld, pointed specifically to Michele Bachmann of Minnesota — particularly her suggestion that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton aide Huma Abedin be investigated to see if she has ties to Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood that would compromise her loyalty.

Hanna, a businessman who defeated Democratic incumbent Michael Arcuri two years ago, said his first term in Congress left him “sad in a lot of ways” because of the growing divisiveness on both sides of the aisle.

“We render ourselves incapable of governing when all we do is take severe sides...” he said. “If all people do is go down there and join a team, and the team is invested in winning and you have something that looks very similar to the shirts and the skins, there’s not a lot of value there.”

While he blamed the dysfunction on both sides, he said he feels more bitterness coming from the Republican caucus than from the Democrats.

“I would say that the friends I have in the Democratic Party I find ... much more congenial — a little less anger,” he said.

208 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:47:27pm

Republican Moderates Tire of Leaders' Tea Party Tilt

According to Republicans, moderate members of the House GOP conference feel that Boehner, who has struggled with an often raucous and openly defiant right wing, has forced them to go along with conservative demands but has provided them little in return.

One Republican familiar with the dynamics within the GOP argued part of the difficulty for Boehner has been the fact that conservatives -- and not moderates -- have been the "squeaky wheel" within the conference, which has forced him to focus on them for much of the 112th Congress.

Rather than work with his entire conference Boehner has had to "prove to conservatives constantly that he's advocating for them and not screwing them behind their backs," the Republican said.

Boehner remains deeply popular within his conference, and despite the frustration of moderates he faces virtually no chance of an effort oust him as Speaker.

Although a spokesman for Boehner declined to comment, one Republican lawmaker privately downplayed Hanna's complaints, noting that pushing back against leadership is a favored past time of lawmakers in swing districts like Hanna's.

Nevertheless, Republicans acknowledged that unhappiness with leadership amongst the moderate ranks has been growing for months. Earlier this year LaTourette and the chamber’s “Old Bulls” – a group of old-line appropriators and other dealmakers – openly broke with Boehner over his efforts to reshape federal transportation spending.

209 gwangung  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:47:49pm

re: #207 Kragar

And? Is he going to break and vote with Dems on occasion?

If not, he's not walking the walk...

210 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:51:25pm

re: #177 Gus

What a loser...

[Embedded content]

He wants everyone to lay off the 1% unless that 1% is a Dem.

211 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:54:01pm

re: #210 b_sharp

He wants everyone to lay off the 1% unless that 1% is a Dem.

Even more pathetic is how they're outraged that CNN didn't mention it.

212 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:56:33pm

All I know is that if I hear one more wingnut say how fat the FLOTUS is I may hit them over the head.

She is not fat. She is a "sturdy women" but I venture there is not much fat on her and lots of muscle.

Saying FLOTUS is fat is like saying JLo is fat.

213 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:57:05pm

re: #204 researchok

Agreed. The important factor is they are not immune from their own choices. Continuing to fight a war that was lost almost 80 years ago has consequences. If the same situation had happened 100 years ago there would be genocide and complete annihilation. They are taking advantage of their victor's good graces. If the Japanese or Germans had tried the same model of irresponsible resistance beyond all hope just 20-30 years previous the result would have been much different. They are taking advantage of a modern loophole in development and kindness to their own detriment. It's a shitty thing to do.

214 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:57:42pm

re: #200 researchok

Post war reconstruction, otherwise known as 'nation building'.

AKA --entrenchment?

215 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 6:59:09pm

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

216 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:01:23pm

re: #215 Killgore Trout

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

"Dude, stop acting like a dick." - Anon

217 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:01:34pm

Resistance is futile
-Star Trek?

218 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:03:07pm

Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
-Alex White

219 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:04:30pm

re: #218 William Barnett-Lewis

Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
-Alex White

"I drank what?" - Socrates

220 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:06:52pm

re: #213 Killgore Trout

The Arab Spring is the result of global communications not available even a few years ago. The real world has opened up to then

This is a slow awakening- the Arab populations are beginning to realize they do not have live under tyranny and that Israel isn't exactly the demons they were led to believe.

It's like turning a aircraft carrier- it can't be done on a dime and will take time.

When has turned, there will be no going back.

221 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:07:35pm

re: #214 ggt

For now, yes.

And that isn't necessarily a bad thing

222 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:08:16pm

re: #215 Killgore Trout

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

FUCK YEAH!

223 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:08:35pm

re: #220 researchok

there are a lot of conservative institutions in the arab world that are responsible for the demonizing of israel. i dont think they will be going away anytime soon.

224 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:09:27pm

re: #221 researchok

For now, yes.

And that isn't necessarily a bad thing

No, it's not. As long as we keep perspective and don't decide that our whackos are better than their whackos.

225 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:09:56pm

re: #223 SpaceJesus

there are a lot of conservative institutions in the arab world that are responsible for the demonizing of israel. i dont think they will be going away anytime soon.

As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be.

"blame the joooooos"
/gah

226 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:12:19pm

re: #223 SpaceJesus

For sure- but it is a process that will take time.

227 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:12:27pm

re: #214 ggt

AKA --entrenchment?

I still thin we need a presence in the area because of China.

228 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:13:57pm

hahaha yes

229 jaunte  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:14:21pm

This is cool:

230 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:14:26pm

If anyone is interested, here is a piece on Arab world tribalism (as crafted by very dysfunctional leaders) and culture.

Again, from when I had time...

The Promise

231 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:14:27pm

re: #215 Killgore Trout

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Is this in reference to a Palestinian standing up to the tribe or something else?

232 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:17:46pm

re: #231 Gus

Is this in reference to a Palestinian standing up to the tribe or something else?

Is that a rhetorical question?

233 Gus  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:19:08pm

re: #232 Killgore Trout

Is that a rhetorical question?

Perhaps. I was just wondering because it seems like it could apply either to a Palestinian or Killgore Trout.

234 gwangung  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:19:51pm

re: #223 SpaceJesus

there are a lot of conservative institutions in the arab world that are responsible for the demonizing of israel. i dont think they will be going away anytime soon.

Likewise, the deep South confederacy element isn't going away from the US any time soon.

235 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:21:13pm

re: #233 Gus

LOLOL

236 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:21:23pm

re: #228 SpaceJesus

hahaha yes

[Embedded content]

I think that might not be the actual Doors

237 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:22:20pm

re: #233 Gus

Perhaps. I was just wondering because it seems like it could apply either to a Palestinian or Killgore Trout.

It should apply to more people than it does.

238 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:22:55pm

Just saw vid of Romney shaking Bibi's hand. Seriously he shakes hands like a see-saw. It was bizarre. Trying to hard Mitt. Too fucking hard.

239 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:23:27pm

If they would just ask me, the world would be a better place.

I say condoms and weed should count as entitlements --

you?

240 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:24:10pm

re: #237 Killgore Trout

It should apply to more people than it does.

You dismiss the average mother Palestinian. Or does that woman exist? I hate the group hate/think you sneak in. We are all so tired that no one pushed back.

241 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:25:58pm

re: #240 Stanley Sea

You dismiss the average mother Palestinian. Or does that woman exist? I hate the group hate/think you sneak in. We are all so tired that no one pushed back.

I'm not sure the average mother in Palestine has ever seen much further than her local market. I don't know that she is all that educated beyond what is necessary to raise her children and keep hallal.

242 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:26:23pm

re: #239 ggt

If they would just ask me, the world would be a better place.

I say condoms and weed should count as entitlements --

you?

Salary caps everywhere.

243 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:29:25pm

re: #241 ggt

Consider this:

The child comes home from school, sings a song about killing Jews and mom and dad applaud and say, 'Again!'

Why, because like the child, they too have been served the same alcohol.

More: Suppose a client in the Arab world says, 'Doctor, I don't want to kill Jews. I don't want to kill anyone.'

The psychiatrist will then tell the client he is crazy and needs help to 'overcome' his illness.

That is for real.

244 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:29:46pm

re: #242 Kragar

Salary caps everywhere.

Nah, too easily finagled thru the black market. I'd rather people have legal and taxable ways to make money.

245 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:30:25pm

re: #241 ggt

I'm not sure the average mother in Palestine has ever seen much further than her local market. I don't know that she is all that educated beyond what is necessary to raise her children and keep hallal.

But Killgore has no prob labeling her this way. Total broad brush. Feeds the hate and other-ism.

Kilgore:

Palestinians have embraced a culture of death, martyrdom and terrorism

This goes on and on and on and on. Thinking people are finally saying, wtf.

246 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:31:17pm

re: #243 researchok

Consider this:

The child comes home from school, sings a songh about killing Jews and mom and dad applaud and say, 'Again!'

Why, because like the child, they too have been served the same alcohol.

More: Suppose a client in the Arab world says, 'Doctor, I don't want to kill Jews. I don't want to kill anyone.'

The psychiatrist will then tell the client he is crazy and needs help to 'overcome' his illness.

That is for real.

With the LDS cult in Texas existing in modern day, and reading William Shirer and Robert Caro (among others). I am most cynical about the addiction of power and the human's ability to discern the truth.

247 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:31:31pm

re: #244 ggt

Nah, too easily finagled thru the black market. I'd rather people have legal and taxable ways to make money.

I call dibs on looting and pillaging.

248 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:34:08pm

re: #246 ggt

See my 230.

Power- which really means control- is the most potent drug.

Read the link

249 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:34:46pm

re: #245 Stanley Sea

But Killgore has no prob labeling her this way. Total broad brush. Feeds the hate and other-ism.

Kilgore:

This goes on and on and on and on. Thinking people are finally saying, wtf.

There do seem to be two realities. The Palestinian's and the Rest of the World. They have been manipulated by the rest of the Arab world, and I don't have any answers. Hopefully the internet and global communications will prevent future generation from drinking ALL of the koolaid. On both sides, Alouette?, posted some horrible hatred happenings from the ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel as well.

Not an attempt at equivalence, but proof that NO one, NO Group is immune from the scourge of hatred.

250 tenthirtytwo  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:35:48pm

Enjoy/gag on this little nugget from Fox Nation!

Image: nation.jpg

251 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:36:36pm

Pawlenty just brought up the teleprompter.

OK.

252 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:37:02pm

In 2006 Hamas won the elections, that Bush had idiotically championed, with a vote of 44.45%, compared to Fatah's 41.43%, turnout was estimated to be no higher than 76%. Hamas and Fatah then formed a national unity government that lasted one year, until Bush backed an attempted coup:

Wurmser accuses the Bush administration of “engaging in a dirty war in an effort to provide a corrupt dictatorship [led by Abbas] with victory.” He believes that Hamas had no intention of taking Gaza until Fatah forced its hand. “It looks to me that what happened wasn’t so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen,” Wurmser says.

The botched plan has rendered the dream of Middle East peace more remote than ever, but what really galls neocons such as Wurmser is the hypocrisy it exposed. “There is a stunning disconnect between the president’s call for Middle East democracy and this policy,” he says. “It directly contradicts it.”

Enter the Devil you know:

A clue comes toward the end of the video, which was found in a Fatah security building by Hamas fighters last June. Still bound and blindfolded, the prisoners are made to echo a rhythmic chant yelled by one of their captors: “By blood, by soul, we sacrifice ourselves for Muhammad Dahlan! Long live Muhammad Dahlan!”

There is no one more hated among Hamas members than Muhammad Dahlan, long Fatah’s resident strongman in Gaza. Dahlan, who most recently served as Abbas’s national-security adviser, has spent more than a decade battling Hamas. Dahlan insists that abu Dan was tortured without his knowledge, but the video is proof that his followers’ methods can be brutal.

Bush has met Dahlan on at least three occasions. After talks at the White House in July 2003, Bush publicly praised Dahlan as “a good, solid leader.” In private, say multiple Israeli and American officials, the U.S. president described him as “our guy.”

Rather than see if a unity government of two bad actors, antagonistic to each other, could be forced to work together thus each checking the other's worst inclinations, we sought to destabilize the newly formed Palestinian government almost immediately. And the worst part is it completely backfired, the whole thing. By demanding elections be held without understanding the sentiment we legitimized Hamas. Then by attempting a coup to remove Hamas from power we cemented them into complete control of Gaza. A complete and utter cluster fuck.

253 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:37:09pm

re: #251 Stanley Sea

Pawlenty just brought up the teleprompter.

OK.

Image: hurr-im-a-durr.jpg

254 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:37:54pm

re: #250 tenthirtytwo

Welcome, hatchling.

255 blueraven  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:37:57pm

re: #243 researchok

Consider this:

The child comes home from school, sings a songh about killing Jews and mom and dad applaud and say, 'Again!'

Why, because like the child, they too have been served the same alcohol.

More: Suppose a client in the Arab world says, 'Doctor, I don't want to kill Jews. I don't want to kill anyone.'

The psychiatrist will then tell the client he is crazy and needs help to 'overcome' his illness.

That is for real.

But there are other stories as well. One Palestinian father loses several children in an Israeli bombing, yet he just wants the violence to end and does not seek revenge. Does not preach hatred.

Perhaps he is the one in the Nietzsche quote Killgore posted.

Also, while not institutionalized or as rampant, hatred for Palestinians is passed down to children of Israel too.

256 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:38:21pm

re: #251 Stanley Sea

Pawlenty just brought up the teleprompter.

OK.

The fact Mitt was using 2 of them?

257 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:38:24pm

re: #250 tenthirtytwo

Enjoy/gag on this little nugget from Fox Nation!

Image: nation.jpg

shit. I have always known why they hate Holder. And it goes way way back to the idiot white fear thingy. That sucked.

258 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:39:07pm

re: #256 Kragar

The fact Mitt was using 2 of them?

Ah, no. That's verboten.

SHITSHOW

259 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:39:18pm

re: #252 goddamnedfrank

In 2006 Hamas won the elections, that Bush had idiotically championed, with a vote of 44.45%, compared to Fatah's 41.43%, turnout was estimated to be no higher than 76%. Hamas and Fatah then formed a national unity government that lasted one year, until Bush backed an attempted coup:

Enter the Devil you know:

Rather than see if a unity government of two bad actors, antagonistic to each other, could be forced to work together thus each checking the other's worst inclinations, we sought to destabilize the newly formed Palestinian government almost immediately. And the worst part is it completely backfired, the whole thing. By holding demanding elections be held without understanding the sentiment we legitimized Hamas. Then by attempting a coup to remove Hamas from power we cemented them into complete control of Gaza. A complete and utter cluster fuck.

A technicality.
/

260 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:39:54pm

re: #248 researchok

See my 230.

Power- which really means control- is the most potent drug.

Read the link

Slavery is as insidious to the slaveholder as it is to the slave --

Frederick Douglas

I feel like we've been thru this Vice of Power discussion before, I know we have and I have tons of pages posts on it.

While I can feel for the Arab children, I can't let myself get things out of proportion like so many of us did after 9/11. I don't think trying to convert them to Christianity is going to help. We have to keep-on, keeping on. "Walk softly and carry a big stick"

261 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:40:36pm

re: #255 blueraven

True- but they are outliers.

Consider this: In free elections, Gazans voted for Hamas knowing full well their rigid agenda, promise of continued violence and blatant antisemitism.

262 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:40:36pm

re: #258 Stanley Sea

Ah, no. That's verboten.

SHITSHOW

LEAVE MITTNEY ALONE!

263 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:41:45pm

re: #261 researchok

See #252.

264 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:42:39pm

Later, lizards.

265 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:42:44pm

re: #212 ggt

All I know is that if I hear one more wingnut say how fat the FLOTUS is I may hit them over the head.

She is not fat. She is a "sturdy women" but I venture there is not much fat on her and lots of muscle.

Saying FLOTUS is fat is like saying JLo is fat.

It's code for black. Simple.

266 jaunte  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:44:45pm

Romney keeping to bland utterances in Poland:

“Wow, look at that,” Romney said, surveying the crowd as he walked up the steps of the city’s old town hall to meet with Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk. “This is great.”

“This is like a local rally in the U.S.,” said his wife, Ann.
Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

267 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:44:46pm

re: #257 Stanley Sea

shit. I have always known why they hate Holder. And it goes way way back to the idiot white fear thingy. That sucked.

To be fair, Holder seems to be an asshole. I can't stand him. I think he has hurt the POTUS by not taking total responsibility for Fast and Furious. If you are in charge, that is what you do.

268 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:46:06pm

re: #255 blueraven

Also, while not institutionalized or as rampant, hatred for Palestinians is passed down to children of Israel too.

Interesting.

And where exactly is the Palestinian Peace Movement? If the education is comparable, they ought to very visible. And the Israeli suicide bombers ought to be just as visible. And where are the Palestinian political parties clamoring for peace?

Your assertion is absurd, belied by the facts.

Lastly, do you really want to compare the Israeli society to the Palestinian society? Do you really want to go there?

The Palestinians are victims of their own leadership

There is no magical balance fairy, much as you wish there were.

269 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:46:19pm

re: #260 ggt

Slavery is as insidious to the slaveholder as it is to the slave --

Frederick Douglas

I feel like we've been thru this Vice of Power discussion before, I know we have and I have tons of pages posts on it.

While I can feel for the Arab children, I can't let myself get things out of proportion like so many of us did after 9/11. I don't think trying to convert them to Christianity is going to help. We have to keep-on, keeping on. "Walk softly and carry a big stick"

They live in a culture of death. Don't forget it. Forget them.

270 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:46:48pm

re: #267 ggt

To be fair, Holder seems to be an asshole. I can't stand him. I think he has hurt the POTUS by not taking total responsibility for Fast and Furious. If you are in charge, that is what you do.

Responsibility for what?
The ginned up bs by Issa and the GOP?

271 blueraven  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:47:48pm

re: #268 researchok

Interesting.

And where exactly is the Palestinian Peace Movement? If the education is comparable, they ought to very visible. And the Israeli suicide bombers ought to be just as visible. And where are the Palestinian poliutical parties clamoring for peace?

Your assertion is absurd, belied by the facts.

Lastly, do you really want to compare the Israeli society to the Palestinian society? Do you really want to go there?

The Palestinians are victims of their own leadership

There is no magical balance fairy, much as you wish there were.

WTF are you talking about?

272 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:48:43pm

re: #270 Varek Raith

Responsibility for what?
The ginned up bs by Issa and the GOP?

I think all of of this could have been avoided a year ago if Holder would have taken responsibility when CBS broke the story, instead he passed the buck to the Oval Office to Cover his own Ass.

I had several Pages Posts about it, but haven't mastered the art of searching Pages yet. So it would take while for me to page thru and find the specifics. sorry.

273 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:49:22pm

re: #271 blueraven

You stated there was an equality between the Israelis and Palestinians.

There isn't.

274 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:49:28pm

re: #269 Stanley Sea

They live in a culture of death. Don't forget it. Forget them.

No, they are human beings. Their children should not be forgotten.

275 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:49:53pm

re: #272 ggt

I think all of of this could have been avoided a year ago if Holder would have taken responsibility when CBS broke the story, instead he passed the buck to the Oval Office to Cover his own Ass.

I had several Pages Posts about it, but haven't mastered the art of searching Pages yet. So it would take while for me to page thru and find the specifics. sorry.

Well, ok.
It's just that there was nothing to the story.
Most of failure of F&F was because the ATF could not stop the straw sales because of our craptastic gun laws.

276 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:50:50pm

re: #260 ggt

No truer words.

277 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:51:15pm

re: #271 blueraven

WTF are you talking about?

I follow a hell of a lot of moderate Arabs on Twitter, via the Arab Spring, and their tweets are about human rights, not about death to Israel.

Not a culture of death and terrorism. That is the most stupid Mandy Manners statement I've read here on LGF for awhile. Kilgore is bored and fucked up.

278 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:52:17pm

re: #275 Varek Raith

Well, ok.
It's just that there was nothing to the story.
Most of failure of F&F was because the ATF could not stop the straw sales because of our craptastic gun laws.

Yeah, we know that now. And had to endure a shit load of Issa wagging his tongue and making propaganda that could have been avoided. There are those who are really on the line when it comes to voting --and the easier it is to paint Obama as a gun grabber the easier it is to get them to vote GOP.

A year of propaganda is a powerful thing.

279 blueraven  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:52:31pm

re: #273 researchok

You stated there was an equality between the Israelis and Palestinians.

There isn't.

No actually, I didn't.

I said some hatred was passed down to children in Israel. Not by society; schools, televisions etc... but by family.
Are you saying that is never true?

280 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:52:52pm
281 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:53:19pm

re: #274 ggt

No, they are human beings. Their children should not be forgotten.

OF COURSE. But the party line is they are not. I especially love when the line is dropped: "there are no Palestinian people. They are Arabs"

282 researchok  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:54:18pm

re: #279 blueraven

I apologize if I misread and misunderstood your comment.

283 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:57:10pm

Things looked like they were going to turn marstrucker for a while.

I'm not going back there.

We are all ONE people.

284 jaunte  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:57:55pm

Chik-fil-A, the new conservative litmus sandwich:
[Link: www.texastribune.org...]

The Chick-fil-A event was added to Dewhurst’s schedule to give him the chance to show he stands with the beleaguered fast-food chain following controversy over the company president’s comments opposing same-sex marriage. [Former Texas Solicitor General Ted] Cruz has also expressed support for the company.

285 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:58:16pm

We throw in the towel after the first election doesn't go the way we want.
We just give up on them.
Pathetic.

FUCK YEAH!
/

286 Kragar  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 7:59:54pm

re: #285 Varek Raith

We throw in the towel after the first election doesn't go the way we want.
We just give up on them.
Pathetic.

FUCK YEAH!
/

The election had to be rigged if we lost.
///

287 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:02:27pm

re: #261 researchok

True- but they are outliers.

Consider this: In free elections, Gazans voted for Hamas knowing full well their rigid agenda, promise of continued violence and blatant antisemitism.

This is incredibly simplistic summation though. Hamas won those elections with the support of approximately one third of the populace. They won in large part because they actually did make real demonstrable efforts to provide ground level services to the population, and because Fatah was a transparent rebranding effort for the corrupt torturers of the old PLO. After winning Hamas then formed a unity government with Fatah that within a year we attempted to violently overthrow by backing a Fatah led coup. That backfired, after much fighting and killing on both sides Fatah lost, its fighters were shot, tossed off roofs or threw down their arms and ran into Israel where they were allowed to surrender. Only then did Gaza came under the complete and total control of Hamas.

288 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:02:42pm

re: #286 Kragar

The election had to be rigged if we lost.
///

IRAN/CONTRA!

289 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:04:44pm

OT--my highschool reunion was last weekend (didn't go). Classmates keep posting pictures of the events on it's fb page. Sad thing is I don't recognize 95% of the faces or the names. I keep thinking, "Who are you people?"

and I didn't drink or drug until the summer after HS.

290 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:05:25pm

I don't see the problem with Mitt's remarks, as the Palestinians clearly have a set of severe cultural problems that Israel does not have. If they find being told that offensive, then they do. That doesn't make saying it a 'gaffe'.

291 Girth  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:05:59pm

re: #287 goddamnedfrank

This is incredibly simplistic summation though. Hamas won those elections with the support of approximately one third of the populace. They won in large part because they actually did make real demonstrable efforts to provide ground level services to the population, and because Fatah was a transparent rebranding effort for the corrupt torturers of the old PLO. After winning Hamas then formed a unity government with Fatah that within a year we attempted to violently overthrow by backing a Fatah led coup. That backfired, after much fighting and killing on both sides Fatah lost, its fighters were shot, tossed off roofs or threw down their arms and ran into Israel where they were allowed to surrender. Only then did Gaza came under the complete and total control of Hamas.

Its ok tho, cuz we iz xcepshunal!

292 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:07:45pm

re: #290 Dark_Falcon

I don't see the problem with Mitt's remarks, as the Palestinians clearly have a set of severe cultural problems that Israel does not have. If they find being told that offensive, then they do. That doesn't make saying it a 'gaffe'.

Uh, how about diplomacy? Being a statesman? No. He's a tool.

293 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:08:35pm

re: #289 ggt

OT--my highschool reunion was last weekend (didn't go). Classmates keep posting pictures of the events on it's fb page. Sad thing is I don't recognize 95% of the faces or the names. I keep thinking, "Who are you people?"

and I didn't drink or drug until the summer after HS.

Eh, I don't remember most of my classmates from HS.
Then again, I kept to myself.

294 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:09:01pm

Why isn't this culture successful as Israel?
Mali unwed couple stoned to death by Islamists

The Islamists in Aguelhok stoned the couple to death in front of about 200 people, officials said.

"I was there. The Islamists took the unmarried couple to the centre of Aguelhok. The couple was placed in two holes and the Islamists stoned them to death," a local government official told the AFP news agency.

"The woman fainted after the first few blows," he said, adding that the man had shouted out once and then fallen silent.

295 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:09:05pm

re: #292 Stanley Sea

Sheldon Adelson's tool.

296 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:10:19pm

re: #294 Killgore Trout

Dog. Find the most gruesome anti-Islam thing to post. Good going there.

Stand up hate.

297 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:11:11pm

re: #294 Killgore Trout

Why isn't this culture successful as Israel?
Mali unwed couple stoned to death by Islamists

You sound like Drudge posting stories about black on white violence.

298 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:11:26pm

re: #296 Stanley Sea

Dog. Find the most gruesome anti-Islam thing to post. Good going there.

Stand up hate.

Hat tip: Reddit

299 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:12:14pm

re: #298 Killgore Trout

Hat tip: Reddit

So fucking what? You bring it here.

300 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:12:49pm

re: #297 Mocking Jay

You sound like Drudge posting stories about black on white violence.

Kilgore, our resident propagandist.

301 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:13:10pm

re: #294 Killgore Trout

Why isn't this culture successful as Israel?
Mali unwed couple stoned to death by Islamists

Much less violent than dragging a fag to his death behind your 4 wheeler.

302 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:13:11pm

re: #292 Stanley Sea

Uh, how about diplomacy? Being a statesman? No. He's a tool.

Sometimes being diplomatic outlives its usefulness, and I think the case of the Palestinians is one of those cases. The fact is that their culture at this point is severely fucked up and continuing to ignore its problems in the name of diplomacy is actually just prolonging the problems. The Palestinians need to be told "you've got problems, mac!". I don't expect them to listen, not at first, but maybe if they are told it often enough while simultaneously it is made clear that they must also make concessions for peace, perhaps that will make clear to them that they cannot continue a policy of intransigence.

303 blueraven  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:13:32pm

re: #294 Killgore Trout

Why isn't this culture successful as Israel?
Mali unwed couple stoned to death by Islamists

While not nearly on the same level, we just had a black couple in Mississippi banned from getting married in a church there. And it wasn't that long ago that a mixed race couple might have faced death threats or worse.
How did we ever survive?

304 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:14:19pm

re: #299 Stanley Sea

So fucking what? You bring it here.

Indeed I do. It's a horrific crime against humanity, not acceptable under the guise of cultural diversity. Not by any stretch of the imagination no matter how much you hate Mitt, this is not acceptable.

305 jaunte  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:15:39pm

Is someone accepting extralegal execution by stoning? I missed it.

306 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:16:06pm

re: #304 Killgore Trout

Indeed I do. It's a horrific crime against humanity, not acceptable under the guise of cultural diversity. Not by any stretch of the imagination no matter how much you hate Mitt, this is not acceptable.

But I called you out on your broad brush. You respond with Islamic wrong doing. You are weak. Get off the Mitt/cultural diversity bull crap.

Deal with the hateful Mandy fucking Manners statement you brought here tonight.

307 blueraven  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:16:31pm

re: #304 Killgore Trout

Indeed I do. It's a horrific crime against humanity, not acceptable under the guise of cultural diversity. Not by any stretch of the imagination no matter how much you hate Mitt, this is not acceptable.

James Byrd
Matthew Shepard

308 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:16:49pm

re: #301 RayFerd

Much less violent than dragging a fag to his death behind your 4 wheeler.

No, its just as violent. And why bring that last up? Neither Killgore nor I defend such actions and if they occur we condemn them without reservation.

309 Achilles Tang  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:16:58pm

re: #267 ggt

To be fair, Holder seems to be an asshole. I can't stand him. I think he has hurt the POTUS by not taking total responsibility for Fast and Furious. If you are in charge, that is what you do.

I don't think that story has ever been laid out. If he has to take total responsibility, then so does the president, always, and we would never have a president since shit happens all the time.

From what I understand one reason it failed was the lack of cooperation from prosecutors in Arizona. The ATF cannot prosecute on their own.

310 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:17:10pm

re: #307 blueraven

Jame Byrd
Matthew Shepard

They troll the web for this shit.

311 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:18:52pm

re: #308 Dark_Falcon

No, its just as violent. And why bring that last up? Neither Killgore nor I defend such actions and if they occur we condemn them without reservation.

But broadbrush a whole segment of people for the action of crazies of "theirs", but excuse those by "yours" as lone wolves, aberrations of the whole.

312 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:19:14pm

re: #305 jaunte

Is someone accepting extralegal execution by stoning? I missed it.

It's accepted by rape-y stabbey multiculturalist OWS anarchists I think. It's hard to know once KT get's on his hobby horse.

313 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:19:48pm

re: #290 Dark_Falcon

I don't see the problem with Mitt's remarks, as the Palestinians clearly have a set of severe cultural problems that Israel does not have. If they find being told that offensive, then they do. That doesn't make saying it a 'gaffe'.

Fine. But don't turn around and talk about how drive and individual achievement determines success and failure in life. Either starting conditions and environment matter or they don't. Being born wealthy and in a wealthy, technologically advanced society confers definite, unearned advantages.

314 blueraven  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:20:48pm

re: #308 Dark_Falcon

No, its just as violent. And why bring that last up? Neither Killgore nor I defend such actions and if they occur we condemn them without reservation.

Why not? We are talking about culture here. Nobody said you condoned it.
We just had a mass killing in Colorado. The latest in a sad stream of them.
Is that our culture or not?

315 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:22:27pm

re: #307 blueraven

James Byrd
Matthew Shepard

When Byrd was murdered, George W. Bush condemned the act immediately and ensured the racists who committed it got a fair trial, thus ensuring they would not escape justice for their crimes. One of the scumbags who killed Byrd has since been executed for it, another is on death row, and the third got life in prison. I'd say justice was served in their case. It did not bring the man they killed back, but justice can never do that. What it can and did do was to make clear that Texas would not tolerate such acts of evil and would in fact kill those who perpetrated them.

316 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:25:49pm

re: #283 ggt

Things looked like they were going to turn marstrucker for a while.

I'm not going back there.

We are all ONE people.

RE-QUOTED FOR EMPHASIS.

We've been thru the shock and awe of a culture we knew very little about before 9/11. Now it's time to pay attention to the culture we've created in this country and learn from the Arab and our own mistakes.

Rehashing their behavior only serves to objectify them and justifies ignoring our own faults.

We live by our principles or we become what we hate.

317 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:25:51pm

re: #313 goddamnedfrank

Fine. But don't turn around and talk about how drive and individual achievement determines success and failure in life. Either starting conditions and environment matter or they don't. Being born wealthy and in a wealthy, technologically advanced society confers definite, unearned advantages.

I've always believed that both matter. Starting conditions and environment matter, they matter a great deal. But the individual drive and ability of a person often do matter, quite a bit. More in America than in some other places, true, but even in poor nations those who get ahead are often those who are smarter or more driven than their peers.

318 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:27:09pm

New thread, I"m going to make t-shirts.

bbl

319 blueraven  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:27:17pm

re: #315 Dark_Falcon

When Byrd was murdered, George W. Bush condemned the act immediately and ensured the racists who committed it got a fair trial, thus ensuring they would not escape justice for their crimes. One of the scumbags who killed Byrd has since been executed for it, another is on death row, and the third got life in prison. I'd say justice was served in their case. It did not bring the man they killed back, but justice can never do that. What it can and did do was to make clear that Texas would not tolerate such acts of evil and would in fact kill those who perpetrated them.

George Bush has nothing to do with it. It was the culture in that small town that allowed it to happen.

320 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:34:52pm

re: #319 blueraven

George Bush has nothing to do with it. It was the culture in that small town that allowed it to happen.

And that aspect of that culture was repudiated by the state of Texas as thoroughly as could be done. Compare that with Palestinian "honor murders" where the killer gets a short sentence he serves only a few months for or even is not punished at all. Both are murders, both caused by severe cultural problems, but the US actually worked to correct ours.

321 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:39:17pm

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

And that aspect of that culture was repudiated by the state of Texas as thoroughly as could be done. Compare that with Palestinian "honor murders" where the killer gets a short sentence he serves only a few months for or even is not punished at all. Both are murders, both caused by severe cultural problems, but the US actually worked to correct ours.

Try harder.
[Link: washington.cbslocal.com...]

322 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:39:49pm

re: #315 Dark_Falcon

Convenient that you completely ignore the case of Matt Shepard. You condone society's second class treatment of gays every time you vote for or donate to a GOP candidate. You've opposed the advancement of their rights at every single turn until the tide shifted against you. You opposed their rights to adopt, serve in the military and hold equal partnership rights.

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

And that aspect of that culture was repudiated by the state of Texas as thoroughly as could be done. Compare that with Palestinian "honor murders" where the killer gets a short sentence he serves only a few months for or even is not punished at all. Both are murders, both caused by severe cultural problems, but the US actually worked to correct ours.

The Texas GOP wants to repeal all hate crimes legislation and prevent people from being charged for crimes against gays committed out of religious conviction:

We urge immediate repeal of the Hate Crimes Law. Until the Hate Crimes Law is totally repealed, we urge the Legislature to immediately remove the education curriculum mandate and the sexual orientation category in said Law.

...

Additionally, we oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction or belief in traditional values.

That's your party. That's what you condone every time you vote for it.

323 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:54:58pm

re: #322 goddamnedfrank

I'm not nearly as familiar with the Shepard case as I am with the Bryd case, Frank. I used the case I was familiar with in order to ensure I was fighting on ground I understood.

324 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jul 30, 2012 8:55:53pm

re: #321 Varek Raith

Try harder.
[Link: washington.cbslocal.com...]

They can think that, but it does not eliminate my point.

325 Gus  Tue, Jul 31, 2012 5:46:41am

re: #304 Killgore Trout

Indeed I do. It's a horrific crime against humanity, not acceptable under the guise of cultural diversity. Not by any stretch of the imagination no matter how much you hate Mitt, this is not acceptable.

Thank you for your input Mr. Breivik.

326 Buck  Tue, Jul 31, 2012 8:24:48am

re: #313 goddamnedfrank

Being born wealthy and in a wealthy, technologically advanced society confers definite, unearned advantages.

And what does that have to do with Israel?

If you really think there was a wealthy, technologically advanced society in place, you need to quickly read up on who was creating the modern state of Israel in the 1880-1980 time period.

327 efuseakay  Tue, Jul 31, 2012 9:01:17am

re: #33 wrenchwench

At this point his party should be helping him too. I'm sure that's part of the problem.

I bet they aren't helping on purpose. Think about it. And the direction the party is headed. What better way to go even further right than sabotaging the Romney campaign, assuring President Obama gets a 2nd term. We all know there are elements in the GOP that want this.


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