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Tens of Thousands Demand Action on Climate Change

Environment • Views: 24,445

In what was billed as the largest climate rally in U.S. history, thousands of people marched past the White House on Sunday to urge President Obama to reject a controversial pipeline and take other steps to fight climate change.

Organizers, including the Sierra Club, estimated that more than 35,000 people from 30-plus states — some dressed as polar bears — endured frigid temperatures to join the “Forward on Climate” rally, although the crowd size could not be confirmed. Their immediate target is Obama’s final decision, expected soon, on the Keystone XL oil pipeline that would carry tar sands from Canada through several U.S. states.

“This movement’s been building a long time. One of the things that’s built it is everybody’s desire to give the president the support he needs to block this Keystone pipeline,” Bill McKibben, founder of the environmental activist group, 350.org, said as protesters gathered on the National Mall.

More: Tens of Thousands Demand Action on Climate Change

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306 comments

1 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:18:23am

35,000? I’ll wait for the photos. Organizers typically inflate the numbers of people attending.

2 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:26:32am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

35,000? I’ll wait for the photos. Organizers typically inflate the numbers of people attending.

There’s a 3+ hour video of the rally here. In skipping through it quickly, it’s a very large crowd. I’m not surprised by the 35,000 number.

3 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:26:34am

I see the morning wingnut wave is especially active today.

4 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:26:55am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

35,000? I’ll wait for the photos. Organizers typically inflate the numbers of people attending.

The Daily Mail has pictures.

5 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:33:24am

re: #4 NJDhockeyfan

those pictures are obviously shopped //

6 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:34:33am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

35,000? I’ll wait for the photos. Organizers typically inflate the numbers of people attending.

Especially those people who have no use for objectively verifiable numbers…

7 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:34:57am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

35,000? I’ll wait for the photos. Organizers typically inflate the numbers of people attending.

Did you, by any chance, choose to click on the link in the main post? You see, there are pictures there.

Subtle, I know.

8 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:36:37am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

35,000 is actually a very low estimate. There are plenty of photos available. Curious that your first impulse is to assume the rally organizers are lying.

9 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:37:48am

re: #7 erik_t

Did you, by any chance, choose to click on the link in the main post? You see, there are pictures there.

Subtle, I know.

I like the Grim Reaper paper-mache mask with the oil well hat.

10 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:38:17am

re: #8 Charles Johnson

35,000 is actually a very low estimate. There are plenty of photos available. Curious that your first impulse is to assume the rally organizers are lying.

No, it’s not curious. You already know the reason.

11 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:38:51am

re: #8 Charles Johnson

35,000 is actually a very low estimate. There are plenty of photos available. Curious that your first impulse is to assume the rally organizers are lying.

I believe Darks was a blanket statement for all such rallies

Tea Party,,, OWS ,,,Million Man or Women marches ,,, 2nd amendment ,,, etc

12 A Mom Anon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:38:54am

But,but, they used GAS to get there!! Hypocrites! Moonbats! Stupid Liberals!
///////////

13 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:39:31am

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

No, it’s not curious. You already know the reason.

What’s the reason?

14 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:40:56am

re: #13 Sionainn

What’s the reason?

Go team go, presumably.

15 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:41:35am

Except for all the little fetus babies!1!

16 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:42:15am

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

No, it’s not curious. You already know the reason.

Actually, I don’t. Why would you assume they’re lying?

17 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:46:24am

re: #14 erik_t

Go team go, presumably.

I don’t get it…it’s a climate rally, for Pete’s sake.

18 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:47:59am

re: #17 Sionainn

I don’t get it…it’s a climate rally, for Pete’s sake.

Shitting all over God’s creation seems to be a core Republican value for some reason.

19 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:49:02am

Because everyone knows that the environment is unpopular.

NPR’s story with some pics
[Link: www.npr.org…]

20 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:49:42am

re: #15 Vicious Babushka

Except for all the little fetus babies!1!

Well want them to live their own lives AS THE BIBLE SAYS THEY SHOULD.

He left out the last part for some reason.

21 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:49:49am

re: #18 erik_t

Shitting all over God’s creation seems to be a core Republican value for some reason.

Well, yeah, but I didn’t think DF had any issues with climate change like a lot of conservatives do.

22 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:49:59am

Also notice that NPR is saying “a crowd of up to 40,000”

23 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:50:40am

re: #20 dragonfire1981

Well want them to live their own lives AS THE BIBLE SAYS THEY SHOULD.

He left out the last part for some reason.

LOL.

24 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:51:03am

re: #17 Sionainn

I don’t get it…it’s a climate rally, for Pete’s sake.

Some religious conservatives believe God is in control of everything on the earth and, as such, only he gets to decide when our next Ice Age happens and there’s nothing we petty imperfect humans can do about it.

Hence, they consider rallies like the one detailed above to be a waste of time and money.

25 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:51:24am

Climate change is an issue that needs to be addressed, but blocking construction of this pipeline strikes me as ridiculous. Inhibiting fossil fuel energy progress before there’s a fully developed energy alternative is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

26 Mongo only pawn... in game of life.  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:51:27am

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

Didn’t stop him from lying.

27 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:51:35am

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

LOL.

Darn that Richard, he’s a sly SOB.

28 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:52:22am

Funny thing is, the great David himself violated those commandments (he repented of course, but the point stands).

29 allegro  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:52:27am

If one’s only experience with “news” is Fox and talk radio, then expectations of wild exaggerations and made up numbers of attendance at rallies one supports isn’t surprising.

30 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:52:31am

re: #26 Mongo only pawn… in game of life.

Didn’t stop him from lying.

He would probably pass a polygraph because he really, really believes all that BS.

31 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:53:01am

Also, Richard might want to reconsider how well Conservatives are doing on those commandments, especially that one about “false witness”.

32 Mongo only pawn... in game of life.  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:53:41am

re: #30 Vicious Babushka

He would probably pass a polygraph because he really, really believes all that BS.

Ok. Delusional then. Smug. Arrogant. Stupid. And wrong.

33 allegro  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:54:11am

re: #25 SidewaysQuark

Climate change is an issue that needs to be addressed, but blocking construction of this pipeline strikes me as ridiculous. Inhibiting fossil fuel energy progress before there’s a fully developed energy alternative is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Perhaps if you did a bit more research on the purpose of this pipeline and the sensitive ecological areas it is proposed to be built through, you’d have a better understanding of the reasonable objections.

34 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:55:15am

re: #25 SidewaysQuark

the problem with the keystone pipeline and the tar sands in general is the companies involved are expending far more energy and producing far more GHG’s and pollution to extract the oil than it will ever produce. On top of that, when they start going into the bogs and marshes up there they will start releasing large quantities of Methane which is a far more dangerous GHG.

35 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:55:44am

Even bozo bozell’s Newflustered site is not taking exception to the 35K number.

36 A Mom Anon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:55:49am

re: #23 Vicious Babushka

What I find disturbing is that all that’s allegedly stopping them from being “immoral” is some words on paper, in a really old book. Like there’s no way you can be a good and honorable person without that old book full of words. I have no issue with any religious set of beliefs, but this nonsense that the 10 Commandments have some magical power (that doesn’t seem to work in many cases) to stop people from being horrible to one another is kinda stupid.

37 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:56:36am

re: #33 allegro

Perhaps if you did a bit more research on the purpose of this pipeline and the sensitive ecological areas it is proposed to be built through, you’d have a better understanding of the reasonable objections.

That’s a cause for rerouting and appropriate caution and government oversight, not for striking down the project altogether.

38 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:56:49am

What right wing racism?

39 Skip Intro  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:57:15am

re: #18 erik_t

Shitting all over God’s creation seems to be a core Republican value for some reason.

That’s because, as Rush Limbaugh has said more times than I can count, “there’s nothing man can do to change the climate. It’s arrogant to even think that”.

When Limbaugh speaks, wingnuts listen.

40 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:57:56am

Ok kids, time to play “what’s wrong with this statement?”

41 Skip Intro  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:57:57am

re: #38 dragonfire1981

What right wing racism?

I think a former President of Mexico said basically the same thing.

42 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:58:00am

How long will this last?

43 Gus  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 9:58:40am

re: #42 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

How long will this last?

Big Burger is keeping the man down!

44 Eclectic Cyborg  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:01:00am

re: #43 Gus

Big Burger is keeping the man down!

I think I ate there a couple of weeks ago. Good buns.

45 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:01:48am

Belgians hunt boar: No contest, animals win

BRUSSELS (AP) — Belgians went on a boar hunt and at first it looked like no contest: 200 hunters vs. 170 wild boars. Yet in the end, only one boar was slain.

As hunter Jef Schrijvers said after a frustrating day: “The boars won. The hunters lost.”

The northern town of Postel had organized the hunt because an explosive increase in the boar population had damaged farm fields and woods and caused rural traffic problems.

46 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:06:00am

re: #14 erik_t

Go team go, presumably.

That’s the reason.

47 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:06:03am

re: #43 Gus

Big Burger is keeping the man down!

I have trouble keeping one of their burgers down!!

48 A Mom Anon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:07:00am

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

Um. What does that even mean?

49 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:07:02am

re: #15 Vicious Babushka

Except for all the little fetus babies!1!

“We don’t want to rule your lives. We just want to lead moral ones!”

//

50 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:07:33am

re: #37 SidewaysQuark

That’s a cause for rerouting and appropriate caution and government oversight, not for striking down the project altogether.

Quite Concur.

51 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:07:41am

Cute break!

[Link: www.zooborns.com…]

52 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:08:28am

re: #48 A Mom Anon

Um. What does that even mean?

It means I prefer when the rallies of the left fail and those of the right succeed.

53 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:09:32am

re: #51 NJDhockeyfan

Cute break!

[Link: www.zooborns.com…]

I need to make a point of going up there and seeing them.

54 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:09:54am

re: #37 SidewaysQuark

That’s a cause for rerouting and appropriate caution and government oversight, not for striking down the project altogether.

Good effing grief, are you seriously naive enough to trust a company with a safety record as atrocious as this?

Canada’s federal energy industry regulator is investigating the “safety culture” within TransCanada Pipelines Ltd., following revelations from a former engineer about substandard practices, CBC News has learned.

Now, so far they’re claiming those violations don’t pose an “immediate” safety risk (as opposed to what? A risk a few months from now?), but I’ll let the picture from here speak for itself:

20-year-old Isabel Brooks and two of her friends locked themselves inside a segment of the Keystone XL pipeline — a controversial pipeline being built to carry toxic tar sands oil to the US coast for export — to protest its construction. While inside the pipe, they discovered something shocking: there are actually holes in the Keystone XL pipeline, created by faulty welding.

Lovely. All that toxic, slimy, corrosive tar, oozing through a hole-filled pipeline through sensitive ecological areas and over one of the world’s largest aquifiers. But no, it would be “cutting off your nose to spite your face” to stop it 9_9

55 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:10:24am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

It means I prefer when the rallies of the left fail and those of the right succeed.

That this is a left/right issue in your eyes is rather sad.

56 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:11:55am

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

I need to make a point of going up there and seeing them.

One of my 10 year old daughter is all about cats. I would love to take her up there to see them but we are a little too far. She did get to see some big cats at the National Zoo in DC a couple yeas ago.

57 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:12:21am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

It means I prefer when the rallies of the left fail and those of the right succeed.

Holy fucksticks. You’ve swallowed the line now that stopping climate chaos is a “left” thing? That’s frighteningly short-sighted, stupid, and destructive, and the reason the rest of us loathe and despise the republican party. How in the hell can you blame us when you say things like this?

58 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:12:34am

re: #34 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

the problem with the keystone pipeline and the tar sands in general is the companies involved are expending far more energy and producing far more GHG’s and pollution to extract the oil than it will ever produce. On top of that, when they start going into the bogs and marshes up there they will start releasing large quantities of Methane which is a far more dangerous GHG.

Bogs and marshes?

59 blueraven  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:13:26am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

It means I prefer when the rallies of the left fail and those of the right succeed.

Damn the cause?

60 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:14:05am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

It means I prefer when the rallies of the left fail and those of the right succeed.

You’re a caricature of a thinking adult.

61 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:14:17am

re: #54 Interesting Times

20-year-old Isabel Brooks and two of her friends locked themselves inside a segment of the Keystone XL pipeline

So the pipeline wasn’t completed/ active at the time

Lovely. All that toxic, slimy, corrosive tar, oozing through a hole-filled pipeline

You do know that prior to having “All that toxic, slimy, corrosive tar” going through the pipeline they conduct stress tests, which would show if there are any leaks

created by faulty welding.

Faulty, or incomplete.

62 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:14:25am

re: #59 blueraven

Damn the cause?

No, damn the Earth and every being living on it. Party über alles!!11!!

63 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:14:40am

re: #37 SidewaysQuark

That’s a cause for rerouting and appropriate caution and government oversight, not for striking down the project altogether.

Human nature is such that having inexpensive fuels available means alternative fuels will not be available for years past where they need to be.

64 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:15:18am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

Dude, that’s pathetic. Sorry for being blunt, but damn.

65 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:15:23am

re: #58 b_sharp

Bogs and marshes?

Two of the six Brady kids, I think

Image: brady-bunch.jpg-6880.jpg

66 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:15:43am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

{sigh}

67 A Mom Anon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:16:06am

re: #57 Interesting Times

Sigh. This is really small minded and spiteful. Like dirty air, water and land will only effect people who vote a certain way? WTF?

68 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:16:48am

re: #51 NJDhockeyfan

Cute break!

[Link: www.zooborns.com…]

Another entry, this one well suited to this blog.

A photo.

69 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:17:14am

re: #61 sattv4u2

I am not stupid and naive enough to trust TransCanada. They’ve said, through their own actions, that they value money over safety, so fuck them with their own faulty pipes.

70 blueraven  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:17:27am

re: #61 sattv4u2

20-year-old Isabel Brooks and two of her friends locked themselves inside a segment of the Keystone XL pipeline

So the pipeline wasn’t completed/ active at the time

Lovely. All that toxic, slimy, corrosive tar, oozing through a hole-filled pipeline

You do know that prior to having “All that toxic, slimy, corrosive tar” going through the pipeline they conduct stress tests, which would show if there are any leaks

created by faulty welding.

Faulty, or incomplete.

List of pipeline accidents in the 21st century

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

71 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:19:11am

re: #70 blueraven

List of pipeline accidents in the 21st century

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Windfarm accidents
[Link: www.google.com…]

Nuclear accidents
[Link: www.google.com…]

Water power plant accidents
[Link: www.google.com…]

72 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:19:16am

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

Another entry, this one well suited to this blog.

A photo.

I like this one.

Image: komodo_dragon_baby.jpg

73 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:19:17am

re: #60 erik_t

You’re a caricature of a thinking adult.

No, a caricature works by exaggerating salient features.

74 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:19:30am

re: #70 blueraven

List of pipeline accidents in the 21st century

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

So, pass laws requiring the use of stronger and safer pipes. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

75 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:19:31am

The tar sands are a mindbogglingly asinine venture. They are profitable only by ignoring the obvious gigantic ecological costs. The pipeline itself is also a problem, but the tar sands themselves are a much bigger problem.

It really amazes me that there are still people pressing the pedal to the metal towards apocalyptic global warming. It’s not even like they’re not slowing down, they’re accelerating

76 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:20:36am

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

So, pass laws requiring the use of stronger and safer pipes. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What does the US get out of greenlighting this pipeline?

77 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:20:37am

re: #71 sattv4u2

Windfarm accidents
[Link: www.google.com…]

Nuclear accidents
[Link: www.google.com…]

Water power plant accidents
[Link: www.google.com…]

Tar sands operating as designed are an accident.

Fairy considered and rejected.

78 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:21:09am

re: #70 blueraven

List of pipeline accidents in the 21st century

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

The list conflates municipal utility lines and fuel pipes with “Pipelines” - in the vernacular real pipelines carry the raw product, and don’t include gas lines to condos, etc.

79 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:21:11am
80 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:21:15am

re: #69 Interesting Times

Did I mention TransCanada is also eminently fond of abusing eminent domain?

A Canadian company has been threatening to confiscate private land from South Dakota to the Gulf of Mexico, and is already suing many who have refused to allow the Keystone XL pipeline on their property even though the controversial project has yet to receive federal approval.

Oh, I get it, when the government violates private property rights, it’s OMG the worst thing evah!!1! But when a foreign corporation does it, roll over and take it like a good republican voter should.

81 blueraven  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:21:39am

re: #71 sattv4u2

Windfarm accidents
[Link: www.google.com…]

Nuclear accidents
[Link: www.google.com…]

Water power plant accidents
[Link: www.google.com…]

These are basically workplace related accidents, not ecological destruction.

82 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:21:52am

re: #61 sattv4u2

20-year-old Isabel Brooks and two of her friends locked themselves inside a segment of the Keystone XL pipeline

So the pipeline wasn’t completed/ active at the time

Lovely. All that toxic, slimy, corrosive tar, oozing through a hole-filled pipeline

You do know that prior to having “All that toxic, slimy, corrosive tar” going through the pipeline they conduct stress tests, which would show if there are any leaks

created by faulty welding.

Faulty, or incomplete.

The tests allow for ‘acceptable’ levels of leakage.

83 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:22:26am

re: #65 sattv4u2

Two of the six Brady kids, I think

Image: brady-bunch.jpg-6880.jpg

They’re all ugly.

84 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:22:31am

re: #66 sattv4u2

{sigh}

I know - you’re not supposed to say that stuff out loud.

85 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:23:08am

re: #79 Charles Johnson

My opinion of Human Events was already low enough, thank you.

86 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:23:52am

re: #78 Randall Gross

The list conflates municipal utility lines and fuel pipes with “Pipelines” - in the vernacular real pipelines carry the raw product, and don’t include gas lines to condos, etc.

And some of them are of no fault of the pipeline, the owner/ operator/ builder/ manufacturer of the pipeline

2000 For the second time in 24 hours, a state contractor building a noise wall along the I-475 in Toledo, Ohio struck an underground pipeline

2000 A Bulldozer ruptured a 12-inch diameter NGL pipeline on Rt. 36, south of Abilene, Texas,

87 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:24:05am

re: #81 blueraven

These are basically workplace related accidents, not ecological destruction.

Big wheel accidents!

88 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:24:48am

re: #86 sattv4u2

Why am I not surprised that you’re desperately trying to defend Keystone XL?

89 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:24:51am

re: #83 b_sharp

They’re all ugly.

Marsha! Marsha! Marsha!

90 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:25:02am

re: #80 Interesting Times

Did I mention TransCanada is also eminently fond of abusing eminent domain?

Oh, I get it, when the government violates private property rights, it’s OMG the worst thing evah!!1! But when a foreign corporation does it, roll over and take it like a good republican voter should.

OK, now you have my attention. Though again, the law authorizing the pipeline can probably be written tight enough to avoid serious abuses.

Though I do at this point remind myself of the tale of the monkey’s paw.

91 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:25:06am

re: #86 sattv4u2

And some of them are of no fault of the pipeline, the owner/ operator/ builder/ manufacturer of the pipeline

You do recognize, I hope, that part of the very reason for pipeline opposition is that it is highly vulnerable to exactly this sort of accidental damage?

92 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:25:34am

re: #54 Interesting Times

Good effing grief, are you seriously naive enough to trust a company with a safety record as atrocious as this?

Hell no. You must have actually missed the part of my comment where I actually, well, commented, because I obviously don’t.

Lovely. All that toxic, slimy, corrosive tar, oozing through a hole-filled pipeline through sensitive ecological areas and over one of the world’s largest aquifiers. But no, it would be “cutting off your nose to spite your face” to stop it 9_9

You must have again missed the part of my comment where I actually, well, commented, because I suggested rerouting as a viable option.

If you think, however, that simply neglecting developing our fossil fuel infrastructure before we have any viable alternatives on a mass scale other than cotton candy and rainbows, you should really check on who you’re calling “naive”.

93 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:25:55am

re: #88 Charles Johnson

Why am I not surprised that you’re desperately trying to defend Keystone XL?

I could give a rats ass less about the pipeline to tell the truth

94 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:26:09am

re: #54 Interesting Times

While inside the pipe, they discovered something shocking: there are actually holes in the Keystone XL pipeline, created by faulty welding.

That’s a little weird..Normally holes in welding are very small and requires a solution applied to see them and detect them. Also..I never met a protester without a cell phone.. So no proof. But all this doesn’t matter. After sections of pipe are complete they use what is a pig to ride inside and electrically detect flaws. Every pipeline company uses them to QC welds. There are 10’s of thousands of miles of pipelines buried in American and it is pretty rare for leaks. It happens but not often.

95 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:26:33am

Downdinged for a funny big wheel video? Wow…tough crowd this afternoon.

96 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:26:43am

re: #91 erik_t

You do recognize, I hope, that part of the very reason for pipeline opposition is that it is highly vulnerable to exactly this sort of accidental damage?

And that the contents of it are not innocuous, nor the land it’ll be going over easily cleaned-up in the event of even a minor spill.

97 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:26:47am

Congressional candidate quits after coming under fire for NRA ‘A’ rating

A Democratic candidate for Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr.’s congressional seat in Illinois has dropped out of the race after she faced an onslaught of advertising about her support for the National Rifle Association (NRA).

Illinois state Sen. Toi Hutchinson announced over the weekend that would end her candidacy and endorsed former state Rep. Robin Kelly (D) in an effort to defeat former U.S. Rep. Debbie Halvorson, who has opposed President Barack Obama’s effort to ban assault weapons.

98 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:26:53am

re: #93 sattv4u2

I could give a rats ass less about the pipeline to tell the truth

Right, I get that. You’re just standing up for the right wing line, whether you know anything about the issue or not.

99 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:26:55am

re: #90 Dark_Falcon

OK, now you have my attention.

Disrupting the entire world’s climate didn’t get your attention, but property rights does.

Go figure.

100 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:26:55am

re: #84 Charles Johnson

I know - you’re not supposed to say that stuff out loud.

yeah, cause THATS why I sighed.!!
{sigh}

101 A Mom Anon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:27:19am

re: #84 Charles Johnson

I was a little startled he was that blunt about answering me. I guess I shouldn’t be, but yipes. So it’s more important for his side to win than it is to do stuff that would benefit all of us in the long term? WTF does his side “win” when the land is to filthy to grow food, or the air and water to dirty for our survival?

And then it’s the Liberals that are the ones who are in the way of making the country a better place? I think it’s time to just leave the people who think like this behind, work around them and let them tantrum in a corner or something. There’s no way to work with them at all.

102 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:27:58am

re: #92 SidewaysQuark

Developing fossil fuel by developing tar sands is idiotic from any perspective. We will not extract enough energy to in the least bit make up for the environmental damage, most especially the amount of CO2 produced; since it’s such an intensive, inefficient process, the amount of CO2 produced in extracting it is an order of magnitude larger than pumping oil.

103 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:28:26am

re: #92 SidewaysQuark

Hell no. You must have actually missed the part of my comment where I actually, well, commented, because I obviously don’t.

You must have again missed the part of my comment where I actually, well, commented, because I suggested rerouting as a viable option.

If you think, however, that simply neglecting developing our fossil fuel infrastructure before we have any viable alternatives on a mass scale other than cotton candy and rainbows, you should really check on who you’re calling “naive”.

What’s this “our” business?

104 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:28:34am

re: #98 Charles Johnson

Right, I get that. You’re just standing up for the right wing line, whether you know anything about the issue or not.

Nope
I was pointing out some obvious holes (no pun intended) from the article posted

105 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:28:53am

Property rights, another bullshit right wing talking point. Lets talk about property rights if it means a gay man wants to share his property with another man and see how quick the wingnuts tell you its the Devil.

106 bratwurst  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:29:11am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

It means I prefer when the rallies of the left fail and those of the right succeed.

Thanks for showing your true colors, that your politics are far more important to you than the very future of the planet.

107 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:29:19am

re: #104 sattv4u2

Nope
I was pointing out some obvious holes (no pun intended) from the article posted

Sattrap.

108 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:30:14am

re: #94 HoosierHoops

While inside the pipe, they discovered something shocking: there are actually holes in the Keystone XL pipeline, created by faulty welding.

That’s a little weird..Normally holes in welding are very small and requires a solution applied to see them and detect them. Also..I never met a protester without a cell phone.. So no proof. But all this doesn’t matter. After sections of pipe are complete they use what is a pig to ride inside and electrically detect flaws. Every pipeline company uses them to QC welds. There are 10’s of thousands of miles of pipelines buried in American and it is pretty rare for leaks. It happens but not often.

Before being fully mated with the actual pipe the weld will be redone and X-rayed, it’s part of the process (worked on the Trans Alaska pipe line) it’s not unusual for pups and other sections to be lightly tacked together with temporary welds before being placed & fully mated the the main line.

109 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:30:18am

re: #106 bratwurst

Thanks for showing your true colors, that your politics are far more important to you than the very future of the planet.

It’s not even a fuck-the-blahs message. We all live on the same planet, for chrissakes.

Although sometimes the Gulag does make me wonder.

110 Mattand  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:32:12am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

It means I prefer when the rallies of the left fail and those of the right succeed.

I’ll remember that next time I’m driving by the local women’s clinic.

111 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:32:23am

re: #108 Randall Gross

But I’m “standing up for the right wing line” for saying the same

112 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:33:44am

The holes in the pipe aren’t very significant. This is:

Many of the complaints by Vokes focused on TransCanada’s practice of allowing its pipeline and fabrication contractors to hire the inspectors that would be inspecting the contractors’ work.

In 1999, the NEB imposed a regulation which requires the companies contracting the work, such as TransCanada, to supply independent inspectors to inspect the contractors’ work.

“There is an inherent conflict when a prime contractor does his own inspections,” Vokes said, especially when the project involves gas pipelines under high pressure because the consequence could be greater since it relates to public safety.

“In pipelining, there is a huge amount of stress for a very thin pipe,” he said. “You certainly should be paying attention to what is wrong with your pipe, making sure nothing happens to it, and there are no injurious defects to your pipe as it is being put into the ground.”

Vokes said an NEB regulation ensures contractors can’t pressure inspectors to sign off on work that is not up to code.

TransCanada has publicly admitted it did not always follow this regulation in the past, but said it was industry standard. Vokes said TransCanada believed independent inspection slowed production, driving up construction costs.

113 allegro  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:34:03am

Both the pipeline and tar sands extraction are fools errands on every level. We have the technology now to significantly reduce the need for fossil fuels. What’s missing is the willingness to put those billions of dollars to their most effective use. For example, we could use those dollars to put solar panels on every building and every home. This would reduce the need for grid production enormously as well as stimulate the economy by creating jobs producing the solar systems and putting more discretionary dollars in the banks of consumers.

114 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:34:09am

re: #107 wrenchwench

Sattrap.

You added an extra “T”

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

//

115 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:34:41am

re: #111 sattv4u2

But I’m “standing up for the right wing line” for saying the same

You don’t think that’s what you were doing? Seriously?

It’s kinda obvious, you know.

116 Lidane  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:35:57am

Ah, the joys of getting an odd three-day weekend at work. I have the day off today and I’m still making money. One of my clients just sent a new document for me to have translated. Awesome.

117 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:36:36am

re: #114 sattv4u2

You added an extra “T”

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

//

Just for you!

118 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:36:36am

Meet The Shady Secret Money Group Helping The NRA Buy Up Judges And Attorneys General

The NRA has funneled millions of dollars to a front group that spends its money electing judges and state attorneys general who are tough on crime—unless those crimes involve gun control laws.

The Law Enforcement Alliance of America (LEAA) was founded with NRA funding in 1991. The LEAA opposes common-sense measures such as background checks and keeping guns away from people on the federal government’s “Terrorist Watchlist.”

The LEAA adamantly refuses to disclose its donors, but the NRA’s tax documents reveal that it gave the group at least $2 million between 2004 and 2010. Previous reports say the NRA gave the group $500,000 annually from 1995 to 2004, which would total more than $6 million.

The LEAA, in turn, has spent big on state supreme court races, shelling out millions of dollars for attack ads that distorted the rulings of judges in criminal cases. One judge was accused of “voting for” a rapist and a “baby killer.” An African American judge in Michigan was described as “soft on crime for rappers, lawyers, and child pornographers.” The LEAA’s attack ads helped give Republicans a majority on high courts in Pennsylvania and Michigan.

119 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:36:40am

I’m not an oil and coal fan, but the people trying to stop the pipeline need to fight it with real facts. Oil spilling is real bad, but it isn’t a huge problem - wrecking the climate from burning too many hydrocarbons definitely is. Even the worst spill effects are mostly gone in under a decade, while massive climate change might take centuries to reverse.

120 Gus  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:37:15am

re: #54 publicityStunted

Where are the photos?

121 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:37:19am

re: #112 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Definitely.

122 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:37:40am

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

It means I prefer when the rallies of the left fail and those of the right succeed.

Eek! Dark, this is about a scientific and environmental issue. It is not some moonbat uprising demanding freedom and US citizenship for the Gitmo inmates or a ban on military aviation or whatever the hell the professional left is pushing these days. I think it is important to make specific distinctions and not lump everything together as either “right” or “left.” By the classical (and much ignored) definitions of right and left, this is in fact a right-wing demonstration, since it supports the president and the administration.

123 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:37:48am

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

It means I prefer when the rallies of the left fail and those of the right succeed.

Wow, DF, I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, thought you were just kidding, until I read the rest of the thread. I just lost my respect for you. Damn.

124 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:38:18am

Fact: extracting oil from tar sands is one of the most environmentally damaging processes the energy industry has in their arsenal, and it also uses vast amounts of energy. Rewarding this kind of horribly dirty extraction process is a very, very bad idea, and will certainly encourage the fossil fuel industries to do much more of it.

125 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:38:40am

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

So, pass laws requiring the use of stronger and safer pipes. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

More government regulation?

126 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:39:16am

re: #119 Randall Gross

I’m not an oil and coal fan, but the people trying to stop the pipeline need to fight it with real facts. Oil spilling is real bad, but it isn’t a huge problem - wrecking the climate from burning too many hydrocarbons definitely is. Even the worst spill effects are mostly gone in under a decade, while massive climate change might take centuries to reverse.

Yet, by building this pipeline, how are we discouraging the burning of hydrocarbons?

127 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:39:24am

re: #124 Charles Johnson

Fact: extracting oil from tar sands is one of the most environmentally damaging processes the energy industry has in their arsenal, and it also uses vast amounts of energy. Rewarding this kind of horribly dirty extraction process is a very, very bad idea, and will certainly encourage the fossil fuel industries to do much more of it.

Right on.

128 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:39:28am

re: #115 Charles Johnson

You don’t think that’s what you were doing? Seriously?

It’s kinda obvious, you know.

Where did I?
The people were IN the pipeline, so it was obviously not active at the time

Not active means it can’t be “oozing” out all the bad stuff indicated. And as other posters have noted, yes, leaks are bad, but there are inherent risks in all energy delivery systems and until we have some ON A LARGE SCALE that are as efficient, affordable and deliverable as oil and natural gas, we’ll have to keep using those!

129 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:40:07am

Thousands of dolphins swarm into ‘super mega-pod’ off San Diego coast

It’s an incredibly rare sight, and one that took a tour boat’s passengers completely by surprise last week: thousands, perhaps even tens of thousands of dolphins, swarming together in a 7-mile stretch of water near San Diego, in video published Sunday of what the ship’s captain called a “super mega-pod.”

130 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:40:50am

re: #125 Sol Berdinowitz

More government regulation?

Why do you think they picked the route they did? To use states with the laxest regulations they could.

131 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:42:29am

re: #129 Kragar (Antichrist )

Dolphin rumspringa.

132 dragonath  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:42:51am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

35,000? I’ll wait for the photos. Organizers typically inflate the numbers of people attending.

Geez Dark, you upvote a climate denial page and now this?

133 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:43:17am

I hate to mention it, the discussion is flowing along so nicely, but the biggest problem with the tar/oil sands and the two pipelines trying to get built isn’t the environmental damage, bad as it is, it’s the extended damage AGW will do to not only the ecology, but to human culture.

The lifetime of CO2 in the atmosphere is several hundred years, putting every ecological niche unable to adapt quickly in danger. The number of ecological niches potentially damaged or destroyed by the pipelines is far less than the number damaged by AGW. Even if we stopped adding CO2 today, the effects we see now would continue and worsen for several hundred years. Without the CO2 problems damage done by a leak would take considerably less time.

The pipeline will compound an existing problem. With it we could put the ecologies affected into positions where they will not recover for half a millennium.

134 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:43:23am

re: #131 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Dolphin rumspringa.

Flash Pod!

135 Shvaughn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:45:07am

re: #129 Kragar (Antichrist )

Thousands of dolphins swarm into ‘super mega-pod’ off San Diego coast

They’re plotting against us!

136 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:45:23am

re: #114 sattv4u2

You added an extra “T”

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

//

I should have added one more ‘t’, and tipped my hat to Varek. It’s a very useful term.

187 Varek Raith2/17/2013 2:18:17 pm PST

re: #183 stabby

I’ve probably lost 800 points when arguing with the wolf pack.

And of course they stopped updinging me when they realized that I’m not a pack animal

See, you fell into the Satt Trap.
Most of us avoid it.
;)

137 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:45:42am

re: #130 Kragar (Antichrist )

Why do you think they picked the route they did? To use states with the laxest regulations they could.

They kinda use straight lines (shortest distance between two points) where they can

Image: File:Keystone-pipeline-route.png

138 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:46:44am

re: #135 Shvaughn

They’re plotting against us!

Nah, I’m seeing a message…

So long…and thanks for all the fish?

//

139 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:47:01am

re: #135 Shvaughn

They’re plotting against us!

More likely, they’re getting together for their ship to pick them up.
/

140 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:47:12am

I don’t think the pipeline will be completed, and it’s not because of the protests, but because of market forces. Within a short period of time, SW Texas will be outproducing the Canadian tar sands industry and that heavy crude won’t be economically competitive. The stuff coming out of the ground in Carrizo Springs is as sweet or sweeter than Saudi Light. Why transport crap from Canada if you’ve enough good Texas T?

141 A Mom Anon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:47:50am

re: #135 Shvaughn

I for one welcome our new Dolphin Overlords. They couldn’t do worse than the human ones. And they’re cuter and most likely nicer than the human ones, so it’s a bonus.

142 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:48:11am

re: #140 austin_blue

I don’t think the pipeline will be completed, and it’s not because of the protests, but because of market forces. Within a short period of time, SW Texas will be outproducing the Canadian tar sands industry and that heavy crude won’t be economically competitive. The stuff coming out of the ground in Carrizo Springs is as sweet or sweeter than Saudi Light. Why transport crap from Canada if you’ve enough good Texas T?

Because it’s meant for foreign ports and only the foolish have bought into the idea that TransCanada’s pumping that stuff for our benefit.

143 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:48:53am

re: #140 austin_blue

Why transport crap from Canada if you’ve enough good Texas T?

Demand

If the stuff coming out of SW TExas is as sweet and light as you say, that will be high on the demand list
If the stuff being transported from Canada is “crap”, “crap” is still needed for other uses

144 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:50:15am

re: #143 sattv4u2

Why transport crap from Canada if you’ve enough good Texas T?

Demand

If the stuff coming out of SW TExas is as sweet and light as you say, that will be high on the demand list
If the stuff being transported from Canada is “crap”, “crap” is still needed for other uses

It should be left in the ground. Have you heard about Climate Change?

145 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:50:41am

re: #143 sattv4u2

Why transport crap from Canada if you’ve enough good Texas T?

Demand

If the stuff coming out of SW TExas is as sweet and light as you say, that will be high on the demand list
If the stuff being transported from Canada is “crap”, “crap” is still needed for other uses

Like being sold overseas to get the biggest profit for the oil companies and doing jack shit to benefit America while putting our land at risk in case of an accident.

146 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:50:53am

re: #129 Kragar (Antichrist )

Thousands of dolphins swarm into ‘super mega-pod’ off San Diego coast

I’m sure that they massively overrepresented the number of dolphins since the cetaceans are obviously liberal anti-fishing types.
/// :p

147 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:50:53am

K Kiddies

Doctors appt. Pre Colonoscopy testing

I am SO stoked !!!

148 Iwouldprefernotto  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:51:36am

No one is stopping Canada from building a pipeline through their country.

149 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:51:55am

re: #147 sattv4u2

K Kiddies

Doctors appt. Pre Colonoscopy testing

I am SO stoked !!!

You’re going to confuse the doctors, they won’t know where to start.
/

150 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:51:56am

re: #145 Kragar (Antichrist )

Like being sold overseas to get the biggest profit for the oil companies and doing jack shit to benefit America while putting our land at risk in case of an accident.

So we should not export any oil that comes from under US dirt, but it’s okay to IMPORT oil that doesn’t!

151 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:52:10am

re: #129 Kragar (Antichrist )

Thousands of dolphins swarm into ‘super mega-pod’ off San Diego coast

Any of them spotted wearing lasers strapped to their heads?

152 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:52:13am

re: #148 Iwouldprefernotto

No one is stopping Canada from building a pipeline through their country.

Except the Canadians.

153 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:52:13am

re: #149 Kragar (Antichrist )

You’re going to confuse the doctors, they won’t know where to start.
/

I hope he brings me flowers

154 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:52:22am

re: #119 Randall Gross

I’m not an oil and coal fan, but the people trying to stop the pipeline need to fight it with real facts. Oil spilling is real bad, but it isn’t a huge problem - wrecking the climate from burning too many hydrocarbons definitely is. Even the worst spill effects are mostly gone in under a decade, while massive climate change might take centuries to reverse.

Will take centuries to reverse.
CO2 levels will stay that way for centuries, the effects even longer.

155 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:52:49am

re: #148 Iwouldprefernotto

No one is stopping Canada from building a pipeline through their country.

part of that pipeline ( large parts) go “through their country”

156 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:53:36am

When it comes to dirty to cleam energy sources the stack rank goes like this, from dirtiest to cleanest:

Coal
shale, tar, and tar oil
oil
gas
geothermal (there are types of geothermal that vent a lot of particulates that can fit between coal and tar oil)
nuclear
Hydro
ocean thermal
wind
solar

Disciples of particular sources might argue with me over the placement of some of these.

157 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:54:09am

re: #144 wrenchwench

It should be left in the ground. Have you heard about Climate Change?

Enjoy your whale oil lamps and your covered wagon

158 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:54:28am

re: #156 Randall Gross

When it comes to dirty to cleam energy sources the stack rank goes like this, from dirtiest to cleanest:

Coal
shale, tar, and tar oil
oil
gas
geothermal (there are types of geothermal that vent a lot of particulates that can fit between coal and tar oil)
nuclear
Hydro
ocean thermal
wind
solar

Disciples of particular sources might argue with me over the placement of some of these.

But solar causes skin cancer!
/

159 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:54:46am

re: #150 sattv4u2

So we should not export any oil that comes from under US dirt, but it’s okay to IMPORT oil that doesn’t!

Who exactly said this? Not Kragar.

(You who constantly complain about having things attributed to you that you haven’t literally said. Feh.)

160 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:54:58am

re: #158 Kragar (Antichrist )

But solar causes skin cancer!
/

And the wind messed up my hair, which is PERFECT

161 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:55:09am

re: #152 Kragar (Antichrist )

Except the Canadians.

Pretty much. They’ve been hinting strongly at building a pipeline to send the sludge to China, but that would mean selling it as is, rather than being able to send it to Texas where it can be refined into the products it wants to sell to Europe.

162 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:55:31am

re: #157 sattv4u2

Enjoy your whale oil lamps and your covered wagon

Yeah, because without tar sands, we would regress back to pre-industrial times overnight.

163 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:55:43am

re: #157 sattv4u2

Enjoy your whale oil lamps and your covered wagon

Nuance: how does it work?

164 Gus  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:55:55am

President Barack Obama
State of the Union Address
February 12, 2013

Four years ago, other countries dominated the clean energy market and the jobs that came with it. We’ve begun to change that. Last year, wind energy added nearly half of all new power capacity in America. So let’s generate even more. Solar energy gets cheaper by the year – so let’s drive costs down even further. As long as countries like China keep going all-in on clean energy, so must we.

In the meantime, the natural gas boom has led to cleaner power and greater energy independence. That’s why my Administration will keep cutting red tape and speeding up new oil and gas permits. But I also want to work with this Congress to encourage the research and technology that helps natural gas burn even cleaner and protects our air and water.

The White House - Office of the Press Secretary
Statement by the President on the Keystone XL Pipeline
January 18, 2012

…This announcement is not a judgment on the merits of the pipeline, but the arbitrary nature of a deadline that prevented the State Department from gathering the information necessary to approve the project and protect the American people. I’m disappointed that Republicans in Congress forced this decision, but it does not change my Administration’s commitment to American-made energy that creates jobs and reduces our dependence on oil. Under my Administration, domestic oil and natural gas production is up, while imports of foreign oil are down. In the months ahead, we will continue to look for new ways to partner with the oil and gas industry to increase our energy security –including the potential development of an oil pipeline from Cushing, Oklahoma to the Gulf of Mexico – even as we set higher efficiency standards for cars and trucks and invest in alternatives like biofuels and natural gas. And we will do so in a way that benefits American workers and businesses without risking the health and safety of the American people and the environment.

Cushing OK pipeline. AKA the Seaway Pipeline

Seaway Crude Pipeline Company LLC (Seaway) is a 50/50 joint venture between Enterprise Products Partners L.P., the operator, and Enbridge Inc., which purchased its ownership interest from ConocoPhillips on November 16, 2011. The Seaway system includes a 500-mile, 30-inch diameter pipeline between Cushing, Oklahoma and the Freeport, Texas area, and a terminal and distribution crude oil network originating in Texas City, Texas that serves all of the refineries in the Greater Houston area…

165 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:55:58am

re: #143 sattv4u2

Why transport crap from Canada if you’ve enough good Texas T?

Demand

If the stuff coming out of SW TExas is as sweet and light as you say, that will be high on the demand list
If the stuff being transported from Canada is “crap”, “crap” is still needed for other uses

It’s crap in that it costs a pile to refine to a usable form. As long as oil is $100/barrel it will be pulled from the ground.

166 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:55:59am

re: #159 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Who exactly said this? Not Kragar.

(You who constantly complain about having things attributed to you that you haven’t literally said. Feh.)

He stated “Like being sold overseas to get the biggest profit for the oil companies and doing jack shit to benefit America “ (while talking about the TEXAS crude)

167 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:56:25am

re: #158 Kragar (Antichrist )

But solar causes skin cancer!
/

I left off biomass. It’s pretty dirty too.

168 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:56:44am

re: #166 sattv4u2

He stated “Like being sold overseas to get the biggest profit for the oil companies and doing jack shit to benefit America “ (while talking about the TEXAS crude)

Oil from Canada is Texas crude?

169 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:57:20am

re: #147 sattv4u2

K Kiddies

Doctors appt. Pre Colonoscopy testing

I am SO stoked !!!

Have fun. I’m jealous. I haven’t had a colonoscopy for years.

170 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:57:58am

re: #169 b_sharp

Have fun. I’m jealous. I haven’t had a colonoscopy for years.

Want me to bring you back a glove?

171 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:58:10am

BBL

172 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:59:30am

re: #152 Kragar (Antichrist )

Except the Canadians.

Northern Gateway pipeline.

173 Iwouldprefernotto  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 10:59:54am

re: #155 sattv4u2

part of that pipeline ( large parts) go “through their country”

Most of it doesn’t. Why? Canada has ports on their West Coast.

174 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:00:37am

re: #157 sattv4u2

Enjoy your whale oil lamps and your covered wagon

Satt, that was an incredibly bad strawman.

175 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:00:57am

re: #164 Gus

President Barack Obama
State of the Union Address
February 12, 2013

The White House - Office of the Press Secretary
Statement by the President on the Keystone XL Pipeline
January 18, 2012

Cushing OK pipeline. AKA the Seaway Pipeline

Wingnut talking points! Christofascist Fox News Propaganda!
/lololol

176 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:01:33am

re: #166 sattv4u2

He stated “Like being sold overseas to get the biggest profit for the oil companies and doing jack shit to benefit America “ (while talking about the TEXAS crude)

Look again. He was responding to your last paragraph, where you mentioned “other uses” for the “crap” from Canada:

If the stuff being transported from Canada is “crap”, “crap” is still needed for other uses

“… like being sold overseas [etc.]”

177 Lidane  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:02:22am

On a lighter note:

178 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:02:34am

re: #170 sattv4u2

Want me to bring you back a glove?

Please.

179 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:02:37am

re: #176 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Look again. He was responding to your last paragraph, where you mentioned “other uses” for the “crap” from Canada:

“… like being sold overseas [etc.]”

Apparently, Canada became part of Texas and didn’t tell anyone.

180 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:03:34am

re: #177 Lidane

On a lighter note:

The King don’t play that.

Image: BURGERKINGDRIVEBY.gif

181 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:03:54am

re: #179 Kragar (Antichrist )

Apparently, Canada became part of Texas and didn’t tell anyone.

Only Alberta.

You know, birds of a feather…

182 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:04:07am

re: #157 sattv4u2

Enjoy your whale oil lamps and your covered wagon bicycles and flaming straw men.

FTFMe.

183 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:04:20am

re: #179 Kragar (Antichrist )

Apparently, Canada became part of Texas and didn’t tell anyone.

They’re very polite and soft-spoken like that.

184 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:05:16am

BBL

186 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:08:44am

re: #164 Gus

President Barack Obama
State of the Union Address
February 12, 2013

The White House - Office of the Press Secretary
Statement by the President on the Keystone XL Pipeline
January 18, 2012

Cushing OK pipeline. AKA the Seaway Pipeline

Any tar sands in there?

187 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:08:45am

re: #169 b_sharp

Have fun. I’m jealous. I haven’t had a colonoscopy for years.

I got two in one year. Loads of fun.

188 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:09:08am

re: #164 Gus

Nobody here is saying that oil and gas exploration should be stopped. The discussion is specifically about the Keystone XL pipeline, which would be oil extracted from tar sands, an incredibly dangerous and damaging process.

189 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:10:29am

Planned Crude Oil Pipelines

The EIA last week released a nice summary of planned additional U.S. pipeline capacity.

The reversal of the Seaway Pipeline began last May to carry 150,000 b/d of crude oil from Cushing, Oklahoma to refineries near Houston. Last month the capacity was increased to 400,000 b/d, and a second pipe twinning the first is expected to bring the total capacity up to 850,000 b/d by 2014:Q1. At the same time, TransCanada expects the Gulf Coast portion of its Keystone Project to be completed by the end of this year with the capacity to transport an additional 700,000 b/d. Six other projects are planned or under construction that would bypass Cushing and could carry an additional 355,000 bbl/d from west Texas directly to the Gulf Coast by the end of this year, with 478,000 b/d added to that in 2014. Yet additional new projects will help transport new production from eastern Texas to the Gulf.

Will all this new capacity relieve the surplus at Cushing? It’s an impressive amount of new capacity to take oil out of Cushing, but even more has been coming in. The EIA offers this summary:

In sum, over the past three years, 815,000 bbl/d of new pipeline capacity delivering crude oil to Cushing was added. Over the same period, only 400,000 bbl/d of new pipeline take-away capacity was added. During the next two years an additional 1,190,000 bbl/d of pipeline capacity for delivering crude oil from Canada and the midcontinent to Cushing is planned, but this is balanced by 1,150,000 bbl/d of planned pipeline capacity additions to deliver crude oil from Cushing to the Gulf Coast. In addition, about 830,000 bbl/d of new pipeline capacity is planned to move crude oil directly from the Permian Basin to the Gulf Coast, avoiding the congested Midwest. If this capacity is constructed and fully utilized, waterborne imports to the U.S. Gulf Coast, particularly of light sweet crude oil, could drop significantly.

There seems to be many other pipelines being built. Why is the XL Pipeline getting all the press and where is the equal outrage about all the other pipelines?

190 stabby  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:11:03am

You all realize that stopping the pipeline can have no effect on global warming because every single drop of oil on earth is going to be burned no matter what! If we don’t burn that oil, then the Chinese will send ships and they will burn that oil. And we’ll just buy and burn other oil instead.

191 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:12:10am

Fox Host Calls Universal Preschool ‘Immoral Crazy Talk’

WILLIS: I have to tell you, I think it’s immoral to make all of these promises, when you know you can’t afford it, we can’t afford it. Preschool for everyone, are you kidding me? We don’t have the money for that! … This is just crazy talk and I think it’s immoral to put this across as something that’s actually doable, when it’s not.

192 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:13:13am

re: #186 wrenchwench

Any tar sands in there?

No, there aren’t.

193 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:13:13am

re: #190 stabby

You all realize that stopping the pipeline can have no effect on global warming because every single drop of oil on earth is going to be burned no matter what! If we don’t burn that oil, then the Chinese will send ships and they will burn that oil. And we’ll just buy and burn other oil instead.

If we all sit down and shut the fuck up that will happen. There is a chance it will not happen if we stand up and shout.

I choose shouting.

194 Shvaughn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:13:26am

Woah, wait, what happened overnight that made all our right-leaning folks into anti-environment global warning skeptics?

195 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:13:35am

I see we’re entering our next phase of the discussion:

196 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:13:36am

re: #190 stabby

Your comment just, like, went full-Youtube. Never let your comment go full-Youtube.

197 blueraven  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:14:03am

re: #189 NJDhockeyfan

Planned Crude Oil Pipelines

There seems to be many other pipelines being built. Why is the XL Pipeline getting all the press and where is the equal outrage about all the other pipelines?

Are these tar sands?

198 stabby  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:14:04am

re: #190 stabby

Downdings? Really?

None of you have an argument against the obvious truth, so you SAY nothing.

How can you expect me to have any respect for you?

199 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:14:07am

re: #194 Shvaughn

Woah, wait, what happened overnight that made all our right-leaning folks into anti-environment global warning skeptics?

I’m sorry, I don’t see that.

200 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:14:19am

re: #194 Shvaughn

Woah, wait, what happened overnight that made all our right-leaning folks into anti-environment global warning skeptics?

INORITE?

201 dragonath  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:14:49am

re: #198 stabby

Downdings? Really?

None of you have an argument against the obvious truth, so you SAY nothing.

How can you expect me to have any respect for you?

AHAHAHA

202 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:15:25am

re: #198 stabby

Downdings? Really?

None of you have an argument against the obvious truth, so you SAY nothing.

How can you expect me to have any respect for you?

Because what you said is fear mongering bullshit.

203 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:15:49am

re: #193 b_sharp

If we all sit down and shut the fuck up that will happen. There is a chance it will not happen if we stand up and shout.

I choose shouting.

Stabby is shouting too. But he’s shouting stupid stuff and calling it the obvious truth.

204 Shvaughn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:15:55am

re: #198 stabby

How can you expect me to have any respect for you?

Tell me more about how Al Gore took his case to the Supreme Court, in Bush v. Gore.

205 blueraven  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:16:13am

re: #190 stabby

You all realize that stopping the pipeline can have no effect on global warming because every single drop of oil on earth is going to be burned no matter what! If we don’t burn that oil, then the Chinese will send ships and they will burn that oil. And we’ll just buy and burn other oil instead.

I think you need a few of these: /////

206 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:16:16am

re: #190 stabby

You all realize that stopping the pipeline can have no effect on global warming because every single drop of oil on earth is going to be burned no matter what! If we don’t burn that oil, then the Chinese will send ships and they will burn that oil. And we’ll just buy and burn other oil instead.

So lie back and think of low gas prices, huh? Just accept that it’s going to happen and make peace with it?

207 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:16:46am

re: #198 stabby

Downdings? Really?

None of you have an argument against the obvious truth, so you SAY nothing.

How can you expect me to have any respect for you?

Really. Just following your own Rules for Downdinging.

You fell into the “stupid comment” category.

208 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:16:52am

re: #194 Shvaughn

Woah, wait, what happened overnight that made all our right-leaning folks into anti-environment global warning skeptics?

The moon be waxing gibbous.

209 stabby  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:17:27am

How are you going to stop the Chinese from burning oil?
The Indians?
The poor people all over the world who can’t afford medicine let alone new technologies?

You got nothing!

You can’t even stop the US from burning gas.

You got nothing!

210 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:17:46am

California is recieving dirtier crude than tar sand oil? Amazing, I don’t remember all the protests about this.

Some California oil fields dirtier than tar sands crude

SAN FRANCISCO — Environmentalists often call oil from Canada’s tar sands the dirtiest fuel on Earth because the complex process of extracting it spews huge amounts of carbon dioxide into the air.

But by that standard, some of the crude oil pumped in California is just as dirty. In a few cases, it’s even worse.

Several California oil fields produce just as much carbon dioxide per barrel of oil as the tar sands do, state data show. A handful of fields yield even more.

All of them are fields that have been pumped for years and now need injections of steam to squeeze out more oil. Power plants create the steam, releasing greenhouse gases in the process. The gases build up in the atmosphere, slowly warming the globe.

In the past, few people knew or cared about the carbon intensity of California crude. Now, however, that intensity is helping fuel the fight over a key California policy to combat global warming.

The state’s “low carbon fuel standard” requires fuel producers to lower the carbon intensity of the products they sell here 10 percent by 2020. To comply, oil companies probably will have to blend more advanced biofuels into their gasoline and diesel.

But California refineries also might have to stop using some of the crude pumped in the Golden State, according to an industry trade group.

That carbon-intensive oil would be exported abroad, while the state’s refineries would import more low-carbon oil to take its place. And since both the imports and exports would travel in ships — ships burning fuel and releasing carbon dioxide — the added maritime traffic could increase greenhouse gas emissions rather than cut them. The policy, in other words, could backfire.

211 Gus  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:17:51am

re: #186 wrenchwench

Any tar sands in there?

Woodford shale, Barnett shale on a couple of other geological formations. Barnett shale is estimated to possibly yield anywhere from 25 to 252 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. There will also be fracking as things stand now since fracking remains a continuing practice.

212 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:18:10am

re: #209 stabby

How are you going to stop the Chinese from burning oil?
The Indians?
The poor people all over the world who can’t afford medicine let alone new technologies?

You got nothing!

You can’t even stop the US from burning gas.

You got nothing!

Somebody is late for his nappy time.

213 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:18:11am

re: #208 Kragar (Antichrist )

The moon be waxing gibbous.

Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

214 dragonath  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:18:21am

re: #209 stabby

You got nothing!

You can’t even stop the US from burning gas.

You got nothing!

Willy Wonka?

215 stabby  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:18:31am

There needs to be an “idiotic downding” category.

You’re all so far into magical wishful thinking, that you’re making the religious nuts seem sane.

216 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:18:45am

re: #209 stabby

How are you going to stop the Chinese from burning oil?
The Indians?
The poor people all over the world who can’t afford medicine let alone new technologies?

You got nothing!

You can’t even stop the US from burning gas.

You got nothing!

Are you pinching your testicles?

217 jaunte  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:18:52am

re: #215 stabby

Bullshit.

218 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:18:54am

re: #214 dragonath

Willy Wonka?

GOOD DAY SIR!

219 Shvaughn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:18:57am

re: #209 stabby

How are you going to stop the Chinese from burning oil?
The Indians?
The poor people all over the world who can’t afford medicine let alone new technologies?

You got nothing!

You can’t even stop the US from burning gas.

You got nothing!

WTF is this.

I don’t even understand the sudden invocation of Yellow Menace out of left field.

220 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:19:01am

re: #210 NJDhockeyfan

California is recieving dirtier crude than tar sand oil? Amazing, I don’t remember all the protests about this.

Some California oil fields dirtier than tar sands crude

There have been plenty of protests against dirty oil industry practices in California, even if you don’t remember them.

221 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:19:08am

re: #215 stabby

There needs to be an “idiotic downding” category.

You’re all so far into magical wishful thinking, that you’re making the religious nuts seem sane.

The wishful thinking here is that if you scream loud enough, you win the argument by default.

222 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:19:08am

re: #209 stabby

How are you going to stop the Chinese from burning oil?
The Indians?
The poor people all over the world who can’t afford medicine let alone new technologies?

You got nothing!

You can’t even stop the US from burning gas.

You got nothing!

Don’t forget some ALLCAPS and maybe throw in a

wingnut or two

.

223 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:19:23am

re: #209 stabby

You are a paragon of reasoned discourse, my friend, and it’s always charming to read the measured tread of your mellifluous argumentation.

224 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:19:37am

re: #222 Sionainn

Don’t forget some ALLCAPS and maybe throw in a

.

Needs more eleventy.

225 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:19:54am

Say what you will, but stabby-induced levity is as unpredictable and left-field as it is hilarious.

226 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:19:57am

re: #207 Sionainn

Really. Just following your own Rules for Downdinging.

You fell into the “stupid comment” category.

You can’t handle the truth. ;-)

227 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:20:00am

re: #213 b_sharp

Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

But if you marinate that mome in a garlic-heavy sauce and then grill it properly it’s pretty tasty!
;)

228 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:20:38am

re: #215 stabby

There needs to be an “idiotic downding” category.

You’re all so far into magical wishful thinking, that you’re making the religious nuts seem sane.

Stabby, you’ve gone ballistic.

You don’t need to go ballistic.

229 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:20:40am

re: #215 stabby

There needs to be an “idiotic downding” category.

You’re all so far into magical wishful thinking, that you’re making the religious nuts seem sane.

I think this frequently whenever I read your posts.

230 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:21:20am

re: #225 erik_t

Say what you will, but stabby-induced levity is as unpredictable and left-field as it is hilarious.

I don’t know, makes me think too much of a young child having a screaming fit because mommy’s not paying enough attention.

231 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:21:23am

Apparently, any attempt to take action of any sort is doomed to failure, and its all your fault for even attempting to do so, because you’re bad people.

Now don’t you all feel ashamed? I know I do.
/

232 jaunte  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:21:35am

There’s no reason for Americans to make the Keystone XL pipeline easier to build.
We take the fresh-water/bitumen spill risks, private companies get the upside, the energy will be burned overseas.

233 stabby  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:21:41am

re: #221 Targetpractice

The wishful thinking here is that if you scream loud enough, you win the argument by default.

Do you have an argument?

Because I’ve never seen one!

I’ll believe you have one when you can make a believable plan to stop an entire world from burning oil

No such plan has been proposed, no such plan is possible.

234 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:21:47am

re: #220 Charles Johnson

There have been plenty of protests against dirty oil industry practices in California, even if you don’t remember them.

If there has been the press isn’t covering any of it. For years it’s been all about Keystone XL but not a mention about this which to me would be more worrisome right now than a proposed pipeline.

235 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:22:37am

re: #233 stabby

Do you have an argument?

Because I’ve never seen one!

I’ll believe you have one when you can make a believable plan to stop an entire world from burning oil

No such plan has been proposed, no such plan is possible.

An argument? I thought you were looking for abuse.

236 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:22:42am

re: #233 stabby

Do you have an argument?

Because I’ve never seen one!

I’ll believe you have one when you can make a believable plan to stop an entire world from burning oil

No such plan has been proposed, no such plan is possible.

What’s your plan, genius? Or have you just decided that it’s never going to happen, so why get worked up over it?

237 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:22:57am

re: #215 stabby

TGDN called. They want royalties from you for using their idiotic talking points.

238 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:23:40am

re: #224 Kragar (Antichrist )

Needs more eleventy.

Note to self: Wingnut font doesn’t show unless something is written between the [wingnuts].

239 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:23:43am

re: #236 Targetpractice

What’s your plan, genius? Or have you just decided that it’s never going to happen, so why get worked up over it?

Its easier to get worked up about people talking on the internet.

240 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:23:46am

re: #233 stabby

I’ll believe you have one when you can make a believable plan to stop an entire world from burning oil

No such plan has been proposed, no such plan is possible.

Y’know, when we come up with something that does the same job cheaper. Say, a hypothetical algae-diesel or widespread cellulose-derived ethanol.

Old crappy systems are replaced with new better systems when we come up with them. I suppose I just blew your mind.

241 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:23:50am

re: #234 NJDhockeyfan

If there has been the press isn’t covering any of it. For years it’s been all about Keystone XL but not a mention about this which to me would be more worrisome right now than a proposed pipeline.

I just Googled and found plenty of news coverage of protests against fracking and other dirty oil industry practices in California. I won’t post the link, so you can have the educational experience of finding them yourself.

242 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:24:28am

re: #241 Charles Johnson

I just Googled and found plenty of news coverage of protests against fracking and other dirty oil industry practices in California. I won’t post the link, so you can have the educational experience of finding them yourself.

Damn, I was looking forward to the exciting new meme of ‘Let Charles Google That For You’.

243 stabby  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:25:31am

re: #237 Vicious Babushka

If you had anything rational, anything possible, anything other than wishful thinking you’d point to it instead of just insulting.

And here I am screaming because an entire room full of supposedly intelligent people have gone mad and are engaging in magical thinking nonsense.

I’d like to believe that you’re too intelligent to be insane, I really would like to think that. And you’ve all failed the test.

244 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:26:04am

Keystone XL is the subject of more controversy because it’s an enormous geo-engineering project that has huge consequences and dangers for every state it passes through. This is kinda obvious too.

245 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:26:13am

re: #243 stabby

If you had anything rational, anything possible, anything other than wishful thinking you’d point to it instead of just insulting.

And here I am screaming because an entire room full of supposedly intelligent people have gone mad and are engaging in magical thinking nonsense.

I’d like to believe that you’re too intelligent to be insane, I really would like to think that. And you’ve all failed the test.

Is this a flounce?

246 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:26:14am

re: #243 stabby

And here I am screaming because an entire room full of supposedly intelligent people have gone mad and are engaging in magical thinking nonsense.

Gene Ray, is that you?

247 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:26:44am

re: #245 Vicious Babushka

Is this a flounce?

Please, no. This one is so funny.

248 Gus  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:26:47am

In general I oppose the Keystone pipeline not because of the pipelines itself. Modern science and engineering allows us to build extremely safe pipelines that have been operating across the country for many decades now.

The pipelines are tested and certified safe before their use. I would oppose Keystone on the grounds that it would encourage further tar sand development in Canada which I believe to be damaging to the ecology there.

That being said. I will not support pseudo science or pseudo engineering to oppose the pipeline. In my attempt to be more of a pragmatist, and realist, despite my occasional failings, I realize that there will be people on “the other side of the aisle” that will support Keystone XL. To that end, I refuse to demonize and engage in ad hominem attacks on Keystone supporters.

249 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:26:48am

re: #243 stabby

If you had anything rational, anything possible, anything other than wishful thinking you’d point to it instead of just insulting.

And here I am screaming because an entire room full of supposedly intelligent people have gone mad and are engaging in magical thinking nonsense.

I’d like to believe that you’re too intelligent to be insane, I really would like to think that. And you’ve all failed the test.

So do tell us, you towering intellectual giant, why exactly encouraging the extraction and usage of tar sands oil will reduce the burning of oil?

250 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:26:52am

re: #243 stabby

If you had anything rational, anything possible, anything other than wishful thinking you’d point to it instead of just insulting.

And here I am screaming because an entire room full of supposedly intelligent people have gone mad and are engaging in magical thinking nonsense.

I’d like to believe that you’re too intelligent to be insane, I really would like to think that. And you’ve all failed the test.

Is this coming from the same person who said that psychologists don’t do anything?

251 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:26:58am

re: #243 stabby

And you’ve all failed the test

Do you even lift, bro?

252 dragonath  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:27:03am

re: #233 stabby

Do you have an argument?

Because I’ve never seen one!

Was that supposed to be a joke?

Seriously, your arguments, if you want to call them that, are laughingly fatalistic.

253 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:27:06am

re: #243 stabby

You’ve got the screaming covered.

Now try adding in a rational cogent thought to go along with it.

254 Sionainn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:27:14am

re: #245 Vicious Babushka

Is this a flounce?

Please.

255 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:27:27am

re: #251 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Do you even lift, bro?

Coffee, keyboard. Keyboard, coffee. I do believe you’re acquainted.

256 Shvaughn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:27:29am

re: #243 stabby

I’d like to believe that you’re too intelligent to be insane, I really would like to think that. And you’ve all failed the test.

Are you having a bad day or something?

257 Shvaughn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:28:36am

re: #250 Sionainn

Is this coming from the same person who said that psychologists don’t do anything?

They apparently didn’t do anything for HIM.

258 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:28:51am

Do you remember the scene in Monty Python’s ‘The Holy Grail’ where they scream ‘Run away! Run away! as the Trojan Rabbit hurtles over the castle wall toward them?

Stabby was there.

259 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:29:11am

re: #256 Shvaughn

Are you having a bad day or something?

260 stabby  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:30:08am

re: #249 Targetpractice

And how are Americans going to stop CANADIANS from extracting oil?

Hell Israel is going to start extracting tar sands cause that’s all they got. There’s a whole world of people out there that we can’t control.

261 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:30:34am

re: #260 stabby

And how are Americans going to stop CANADIANS from extracting oil?

Hell Israel is going to start extracting tar sands cause that’s all they got. There’s a whole world of people out there that we can’t control.

So we should approve this pipeline because…?

262 Shvaughn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:31:01am

re: #260 stabby

And how are Americans going to stop CANADIANS from extracting oil?

Hell Israel is going to start extracting tar sands cause that’s all they got. There’s a whole world of people out there that we can’t control.

Are you even listening to yourself?

263 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:31:06am

re: #260 stabby

And how are Americans going to stop CANADIANS from extracting oil?

Hell Israel is going to start extracting tar sands cause that’s all they got. There’s a whole world of people out there that we can’t control.

I suggest you add some grays to your palette.

264 jaunte  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:31:18am

re: #261 Targetpractice

So we should approve this pipeline because…?

Taxes? Well, no.

Dilbit is not subject to any additional safety regulations, and PHMSA doesn’t track the specific kind of crude oil that flows through each pipeline. This is one of the reasons why it’s hard to compare dilbit’s safety record with that of conventional crude.

But oil from the tar sands is regulated differently when it comes to taxes. The oil industry pays an 8-cent-per-barrel tax on crude oil produced and imported to the U.S. The tax goes into the Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund, which provides emergency funds for oil spill cleanup and claims. Both the Marshall and BP Gulf Coast spills have tapped that fund.

In early 2011, five months after the Marshall spill, the IRS ruled to exempt dilbit and synthetic crude from paying this tax. The energy and environment news service E&E Publishing reported that the exemption was made “at the request of a company whose identity was kept secret.”[Link: insideclimatenews.org…]

265 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:31:32am

Obama has a tough decision, approve the pipeline to satisfy the unions or deny it to satisfy the environmentalists.

266 stabby  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:32:21am

re: #240 erik_t

Are those carbon neutral, or did you just find a technology that means that even AFTER we run out of oil, we can keep messing up the climate?

267 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:32:50am

re: #265 NJDhockeyfan

Obama has a tough decision, approve the pipeline to satisfy the unions or deny it to satisfy the environmentalists.

If the YOONYUNZ want the pipeline, then all the wingnuts would be against it.

268 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:33:04am

re: #266 stabby

Are those carbon neutral, or did you just find a technology that means that even AFTER we run out of oil, we can keep messing up the climate?

Gee, I don’t know, why don’t you read about them in the links I so helpfully provided?

269 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:33:08am

re: #260 stabby

And how are Americans going to stop CANADIANS from extracting oil?

Casual Association of Naturally Ambidexterous Donkey Inkers and Naugahyde Scrubbers? They’re not that tough. The only nation they ever beat was Chad.

270 stabby  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:33:35am

re: #261 Targetpractice

So we should approve this pipeline because…?

I’m saying that there’s no point caring about the pipeline because it doesn’t affect climate. You’re just jerking off.

271 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:33:53am

IT ALL WENT TO HELL WHEN WE HARDENED WOODEN SPEARS IN A FIRE, DAMMIT!

272 Dr. Matt  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:34:06am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

35,000? I’ll wait for the photos. Organizers typically inflate the numbers of people attending.

Like when Glenn Beck stated 1.5 Million attended his diaperfest?

273 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:34:24am

re: #271 Kragar (Antichrist )

I blame the fish weir.

274 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:34:49am

re: #267 Vicious Babushka

If the YOONYUNZ want the pipeline, then all the wingnuts would be against it.

The unions have supported Keystone since day one.

275 Shvaughn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:34:58am

re: #265 NJDhockeyfan

Obama has a tough decision, approve the pipeline to satisfy the unions or deny it to satisfy the environmentalists.

There are plenty of unions opposed to the pipeline. E.g. these and this one.

276 Gus  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:35:16am

re: #194 Shvaughn

Woah, wait, what happened overnight that made all our right-leaning folks into anti-environment global warning skeptics?

Please show me where anyone indicated or stated a “global warming skeptic” argument.

277 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:35:16am

re: #270 stabby

I’m saying that there’s no point caring about the pipeline because it doesn’t affect climate. You’re just jerking off.

Except for the danger of an additional environmental disaster if if pollutes the US aquafier.

278 dragonath  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:35:49am

In your heart you know he’s right!

In your guts, you know he’s nuts!

279 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:36:32am

re: #270 stabby

I’m saying that there’s no point caring about the pipeline because it doesn’t affect climate. You’re just jerking off.

And I’m saying if you don’t think the subject worthy of your attention, then screaming at others not to pay it any mind is not going to win you friends or influence people.

280 stabby  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:36:34am

re: #268 erik_t

Gee, I don’t know, why don’t you read about them in the links I so helpfully provided?

I noticed that what you linked to doesn’t address whether any of those are carbon neutral, a clear sign that they’re not. If they had that important advantage, they’d bother mentioning it.

281 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:36:47am

re: #194 Shvaughn

Woah, wait, what happened overnight that made all our right-leaning folks into anti-environment global warning skeptics?

I don’t really see anyone expressing skepticism.

282 TedStriker  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:37:35am

re: #270 stabby

I’m saying that there’s no point caring about the pipeline because it doesn’t affect climate. You’re just jerking off.

But, if that pipeline springs a major leak, you’re talking about major ecological damage, especially with the proposed routes over the largest aquifer in the country.

Get bent.

283 Shvaughn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:37:35am

re: #281 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I don’t really see anyone expressing skepticism.

Okay, fair enough. I retract that part.

284 erik_t  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:37:47am

re: #280 stabby

I noticed that what you linked to doesn’t address whether any of those are carbon neutral, a clear sign that they’re not. If they had that important advantage, they’d bother mentioning it.

You clearly don’t have the faintest understanding of what does or does not tend to make a process [BLANK]-neutral.

Hint: if you’re digging a bunch of shit up out of the ground, it’s probably not. If you’re not, it probably is.

285 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:37:52am

re: #281 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

I don’t really see anyone expressing skepticism.

Its not that they don’t believe, its just they don’t give a fuck.

286 jaunte  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:38:01am

re: #277 Kragar (Antichrist )

Except for the danger of an additional environmental disaster if if pollutes the US aquafier.

Feb 7, 2013:

Michigan regulators agreed last week to allow Canadian pipeline operator Enbridge Inc. to replace a 160-mile segment of an aging line that in 2010 spilled more than a million gallons of crude oil.
[Link: insideclimatenews.org…]

287 Big Steve  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:38:12am

re: #188 Charles Johnson

Nobody here is saying that oil and gas exploration should be stopped. The discussion is specifically about the Keystone XL pipeline, which would be oil extracted from tar sands, an incredibly dangerous and damaging process.

Tar sands oil extraction is strip mining pure and simple. It goes like this: You remove the limestone cap rock. You shovel up the tar sands. You transport it to an extraction site. Most tar sands are less than 6% oil by weight and it is is heavy oil (bitumen) and it has to then be mixed with a lighter oil to flow. If solvent methods were used to clean the sand then the removed sand has to be landfilled. There are methods that remove the oil and used biodegradable materials so the sand can be put back where it started from. While you are at it, vast quantities of tar sands exist in Kentucky so this is not just an Alberta thing.

288 Shvaughn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:38:24am

re: #270 stabby

I’m saying that there’s no point caring about the pipeline because it doesn’t affect climate. You’re just jerking off.

Jerking off is carbon-neutral though.

289 stabby  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:38:33am

Ok, you’re not “jerking off” you’re pretending that you’re helping the climate.

Pretending is so great!

290 Gus  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:38:50am

re: #285 Kragar (Antichrist )

Its not that they don’t believe, its just they don’t give a fuck.

Ah, I see. Excellent observation.

291 dragonath  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:39:54am

I guess we should just let CFC destroy the ozone layer. Don’t you know that there’s NOTHING you can do about it?

Oh wait.

292 Shvaughn  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:40:28am

re: #289 stabby

Ok, you’re not “jerking off” you’re pretending that you’re helping the climate.

Pretending is so great!

Calm down, back away from the keyboard, get a drink of water, and take a nice walk outdoors.

293 Targetpractice  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:40:36am

re: #289 stabby

Ok, you’re not “jerking off” you’re pretending that you’re helping the climate.

Pretending is so great!

I’m doing nothing of the sort, I’m arguing against a pipeline that is an ecological disaster waiting to happen. I don’t think that my opposition to it will influence global warming, but I do think that allowing Canada to mainline noxious sludge through our backyard so that it can make more off the products it sells to other nations is not worth gambling the future of a major aquifer over.

294 dragonath  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:41:56am

re: #292 Shvaughn

Calm down, back away from the keyboard, get a drink of water, and take a nice walk outdoors.

But… but… those trees are gonna die, man. The sun… is going to go nova…!

There’s nothing we can do!

295 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:41:57am

re: #275 Shvaughn

There are plenty of unions opposed to the pipeline. E.g. these and this one.

The Amalgamated Transit Union (ATU) and the Transport Workers Union (TWU) plus a nursing union are against it. These guys support the pipeline…

U.S. support for Keystone pipeline stretches well beyond industry insiders

With four million members in the United States and Canada, Sean McGarvey, president of the building and construction trades unit of the mighty AFL-CIO, is the type of Keystone XL pipeline backer the U.S. president cannot ignore.

Trade unions such as the American Federation of Labour and Congress of Industrial Organizations — the United States’ largest union federation — had a big hand in Barack Obama’s re-election, much like the environmental movement that opposes the Alberta-to-Texas oil sands pipeline.

And their patience with the anti-XL camp is wearing thin.

Unemployment in the U.S. construction industry is running at 16.1% or higher, Mr. McGarvey said in an interview, and his members and their families are “desperate” for the 20,000 construction jobs that could be had with the TransCanada Corp. project.


“We are telling the president, and have been telling the president, that a thorough review was appropriate, that following the proper protocols needed to be done to make sure that this was going to be a secure, safe pipeline … that it’s going to be constructed with the most highly skilled people in the world.”

With “all those reviews completed and the reroute around the aquifer in Nebraska done, the time is now to issue the permit.”

The U.S. environmental movement’s nasty campaign against the pipeline, the oil sands and Canada’s fossil-fuel dependent economy have left many Canadians wondering about the future of their relationship with the United States.

What’s received less attention is that there is a broad and diverse swath of Americans — from organized labour to the U.S. oil industry, from Democrats to Republicans, from big manufacturers to small businessmen — who support the project, want the energy security that it assures and want a stronger energy partnership with Canada.

Those supporters include the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the American Petroleum Institute, the National Association of Manufacturers and the Business Roundtable.

So for Obama it’s ‘damned if I do, damned if I don’t’.

296 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:42:03am

re: #285 Kragar (Antichrist )

Its not that they don’t believe, its just they don’t give a fuck.

It’s more complicated that that, too. DF, for example, really believes in global warming and is really scared of it, he gives a fuck. If the GOP suddenly said that they had realized AGW was real DF would be delighted. It’s obvious that the denial of the GOP causes him a ton of stress and strain.

297 Dr. Matt  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:45:00am
re: #292 Shvaughn

re: #289 stabby

Ok, you’re not “jerking off” you’re pretending that you’re helping the climate.

Pretending is so great!

Calm down, back away from the keyboard, get a drink of water, and take a nice walk outdoors.

I have a better suggestion: Type in all Caps. That always works to win a debate.

298 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 11:56:02am

re: #295 NJDhockeyfan

The Financial Post is a wingnut anti-science rag. Also, jobs from the Keystone pipeline have been widely overestimated:

Both of these figures have been the subject of withering attacks. A report by the Cornell University Global Labor Institute found that the Perryman group inflated the amount TransCanada planned to spend building the pipeline in the U.S. and wildly overestimated the number of jobs that money would realistically create. Meanwhile, Michael Levi of the Council on Foreign Relations offered up an analysis of why the extra oil wouldn’t have that dramatic an effect on the U.S. economy. His most compelling argument: The world consumes 90 million barrels of oil a day. The Keystone XL pipeline will, realistically, only add about 560,000 barrels of capacity. In the scheme of things, that’s just not much.

So, heaps of environmental pain for little if any economic gain (unless you’re the billionaire Koch Brothers)

299 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 12:00:25pm

re: #298 Interesting Times

The Financial Post is a wingnut anti-science rag. Also, jobs from the Keystone pipeline have been widely overestimated:

So, heaps of environmental pain for little if any economic gain (unless you’re the billionaire Koch Brothers)

Well someone has gotten all those unions fooled then.

300 dragonath  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 12:33:44pm

re: #299 NJDhockeyfan

I could care less what the unions think. Their basis for supporting the project is based on short term gain above the interests of anything else. Opposition to the project does not require party line thinking.

301 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 1:17:28pm

re: #179 Kragar (Antichrist )

Apparently, Canada became part of Texas and didn’t tell anyone.

Alberta is Far West:

The Far West

Climate and geography have shaped all the 11 nations to some extent, but the Far West is the only one where environmental factors have truly trumped ethnic ones. High, dry and remote, the interior West presented conditions so severe that they effectively destroyed would-be settlers who tried to apply the farming and lifestyle techniques they had used in Greater Appalachia, the Midlands and other nations. With minor exceptions, this vast region couldn’t be effectively colonized without the deployment of vast industrial resources: railroads, heavy mining equipment, ore smelters, dams and irrigation systems.

As a result, the colonization of much of the region was facilitated and directed by large corporations based in distant New York, Boston, Chicago or San Francisco, or by the federal government itself, which controlled much of the land.

Even if they didn’t work for one of the colonizing companies, settlers were dependent on the railroads for transportation to and from far-off markets and manufacturing centers. Seaboard nations treated the region as an internal colony, exploiting it for their benefit. And the region remains in a state of semi-dependency, despite significant industrialization during the World War II and the Cold War.

Its political class tends to revile the government for interfering in its affairs — a stance that often aligns it with the Deep South — while demanding that it continue to receive federal largesse. Yet the Far West rarely challenges its corporate masters, who retain near-Gilded Age levels of influence over the region.

Today, this nation encompasses all of the interior U.S. west of the 100th meridian, from the northern boundary of El Norte up to the southern frontier of First Nation. It includes northern Arizona; the interiors of California, Washington and Oregon; much of British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alaska; portions of the Yukon and the Northwest Territories; the arid western halves of the Dakotas, Nebraska and Kansas; and all or nearly all of Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Utah and Nevada.

302 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 2:14:22pm

re: #220 Charles Johnson

There have been plenty of protests against dirty oil industry practices in California, even if you don’t remember them.

In addition, the reason for the “dirtiness” isn’t the oil itself. It is the age of the fields. They are now in secondary and tertiary recovery, when steam is pumped down perimeter wells and hydrocarbons are recovered from select recovery wells.

The Permian basin in West Texas was mostly in the same situation before they started fracking the source rocks four or five years ago. I get the sneaking suspicion the CA energy companies will start doing the same thing with the Franciscan Formation very soon and abandon the old fields.

303 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 2:55:37pm

re: #215 stabby

There needs to be an “idiotic downding” category.

You’re all so far into magical wishful thinking, that you’re making the religious nuts seem sane.

I have an idea!

Lets call it “The Stabby” for an idiot that gets lots of (deserved) downdings!!!!!

((live by the name calling, die by the name calling))

304 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 3:52:49pm

re: #298 Interesting Times

The Financial Post is a wingnut anti-science rag. Also, jobs from the Keystone pipeline have been widely overestimated:

So, heaps of environmental pain for little if any economic gain (unless you’re the billionaire Koch Brothers)

To be fair, doesn’t that also mean that the Keystone XL pipeline will have little to no effect on global warming, as well? People can’t argue out of one side of their mouths with regard to one effect and then arbitrarily switch sides with regard to another.

305 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 18, 2013 4:11:42pm

re: #304 SidewaysQuark

To be fair, doesn’t that also mean that the Keystone XL pipeline will have little to no effect on global warming, as well?

That non-sequitur makes about as much sense as a Sarah Palin word salad.

306 Gus  Tue, Feb 19, 2013 8:09:30am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

35,000? I’ll wait for the photos. Organizers typically inflate the numbers of people attending.

Turns out you were right DF as this diary at Daily Kos indicates.


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