Audio Recordings Show Police/FAA Shut Down Airspace Over Ferguson to Keep Media Out

Did police lie?
US News • Views: 32,984

You may remember this LGF post from last August, when Ferguson, Missouri, erupted in street protests after the shooting death of Michael Brown: FAA Shuts Down Airspace Over Ferguson at Request of Police.

At the time, St. Louis County and Ferguson police said the 12-day flight restriction was for the safety of law enforcement personnel, including police helicopters. I wrote:

Last night, police ordered media to leave the area. Is this [FAA restriction] really out of concern for safety, or an attempt to keep media from watching what’s going on in Ferguson for the next 6 days? It’s an unusual step, to say the least; normally police helicopters and media helicopters are able to share airspace in areas like this without fear of accidents.

For the record, more than a few people pooh-poohed this idea and suggested it was a conspiracy theory. But today we’ve learned, just as I surmised, that in fact this restriction was intended to keep media out of the area.

On Aug. 12, the morning after the Federal Aviation Administration imposed the first flight restriction, FAA air traffic managers struggled to redefine the flight ban to let commercial flights operate at nearby Lambert-St. Louis International Airport and police helicopters fly through the area — but ban others.

“They finally admitted it really was to keep the media out,” said one FAA manager about the St. Louis County Police in a series of recorded telephone conversations obtained by The Associated Press. “But they were a little concerned of, obviously, anything else that could be going on.

At another point, a manager at the FAA’s Kansas City center said police “did not care if you ran commercial traffic through this TFR (temporary flight restriction) all day long. They didn’t want media in there.” …

“There is really … no option for a TFR that says, you know, ‘OK, everybody but the media is OK,’” he said. The managers then worked out wording they felt would keep news helicopters out of the controlled zone but not impede other air traffic.

The conversations contradict claims by the St. Louis County Police Department, which responded to demonstrations following the shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown, that the restriction was solely for safety and had nothing to do with preventing media from witnessing the violence or the police response.

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146 comments
1 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 2, 2014 3:00:13pm

Pardon my repost

re: #189 Justanotherhuman

Fools, please. As if we don’t know why you did it.

St. Louis Police statement on report that FAA restricted airspace to limit media: ‘The St. Louis County Police Department reaffirms the reason the request for restricted airspace was made, was due to the hostile nature of certain persons on the ground that fired gunshots at the police helicopter, as well as used a laser device pointed at the police helicopter’ - @ksdknews
end of alert

*holds up hand behind transparent excuse*
How many fingers am I holding up?

One, looks like the middle finger

‘Zactly.

2 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 3:01:38pm

re: #1 Rightwingconspirator

Was just about to say…so, thanks.

In view of the above, I’ll repost this from below:

Fools, please. As if we don’t know why you did it.

St. Louis Police statement on report that FAA restricted airspace to limit media: ‘The St. Louis County Police Department reaffirms the reason the request for restricted airspace was made, was due to the hostile nature of certain persons on the ground that fired gunshots at the police helicopter, as well as used a laser device pointed at the police helicopter’ - @ksdknews
end of alert

3 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 2, 2014 3:04:18pm

re: #2 Justanotherhuman

Was just about to say…so, thanks.

In view of the above, I’ll repost this from below:

Fools, please. As if we don’t know why you did it.

St. Louis Police statement on report that FAA restricted airspace to limit media: ‘The St. Louis County Police Department reaffirms the reason the request for restricted airspace was made, was due to the hostile nature of certain persons on the ground that fired gunshots at the police helicopter, as well as used a laser device pointed at the police helicopter’ - @ksdknews
end of alert

Dammit the “good guys with badges” don’t get to hide. Trans-formative moment-Police are losing control of the public live witness narrative. We got cameras everywhere Bwahahahah

Just wait illegal drones at protests uploading to the crowd & cloud until downed or captured.

4 Charleston Chew  Nov 2, 2014 3:07:40pm

Just a technical note: that photo may be a bit misleading. It was taken from a long ways away with a long lens and the foreshortening makes it look like he’s pointing a gun at that person, but in reality there was probably a great deal more space between them than it appears.

5 makeitstop  Nov 2, 2014 3:09:59pm

re: #4 Charleston Chew

Just a technical note: that photo may be a bit misleading. It was taken from a long ways away with a long lens and the foreshortening makes it look like he’s pointing a gun at that person, but in reality there was probably a great deal more space between them than it appears.

I remember seeing a side view shot of that incident. They were actually pretty close.

Those police were pretty much out of control in the first days of demonstrations in Ferguson.

6 Kragar  Nov 2, 2014 3:10:23pm

re: #4 Charleston Chew

Just a technical note: that photo may be a bit misleading. It was taken from a long ways away with a long lens and the foreshortening makes it look like he’s pointing a gun at that person, but in reality there was probably a great deal more space between them than it appears.

That would be incorrect

7 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 2, 2014 3:10:29pm

Okay obviously I’m a little angry. But this is where we might call for a formal immediate appeal process at FAA for 1st amendment objections to no fly zones at police events. A policy more respectful of the 1st.

8 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 3:10:52pm

re: #4 Charleston Chew

Just a technical note: that photo may be a bit misleading. It was taken from a long ways away with a long lens and the foreshortening makes it look like he’s pointing a gun at that person, but in reality there was probably a great deal more space between them than it appears.

Then why are the cops in what pretty much looks like combat gear?

9 makeitstop  Nov 2, 2014 3:11:33pm

re: #5 makeitstop

I remember seeing a side view shot of that incident. They were actually pretty close.

Those police were pretty much out of control in the first days of demonstrations in Ferguson.

Pretty close.

10 Kragar  Nov 2, 2014 3:13:00pm

re: #9 makeitstop

Pretty close.

When you use a lens like that, its going to make them look like they’re a lot closer to each other.
///

11 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 3:13:18pm

re: #9 makeitstop

Looks pretty up close and personal to me.

12 blah blah ad hominem mumbo jumbo.  Nov 2, 2014 3:14:00pm

re: #1 Rightwingconspirator

LMAO

13 Charles Johnson  Nov 2, 2014 3:14:35pm

re: #4 Charleston Chew

Nope - check the sidewalk. You can see they’re on a single part of the paving stones that make up the sidewalk, because the first crack is visible right in front of the guy with his hands up, and the second is visible behind the front police officers. They were very close.

14 Charles Johnson  Nov 2, 2014 3:15:44pm

And now I see makeitstop posted the side view. Yup. Too close for comfort.

15 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 2, 2014 3:15:46pm

Look this is just all the more reason to disbelieve whatever the PD says at Ferguson.

re: #13 Charles Johnson

On the photos above-EDIT-Generally-It’s a wise cautionary note about telephoto shots from the first angle to consider compression, or a flattening of perspective. Of course angle #2 really puts the truth to it. It a truism of photography that location is everything.

16 blah blah ad hominem mumbo jumbo.  Nov 2, 2014 3:16:24pm

re: #7 Rightwingconspirator

I would like to upding you forever!

17 Charleston Chew  Nov 2, 2014 3:17:04pm

re: #9 makeitstop

Yeah, the side view makes it’s clear. Thanks.

18 Charles Johnson  Nov 2, 2014 3:17:25pm

re: #15 Rightwingconspirator

In this case you can tell it wasn’t foreshortened by the details in the photo itself. The fence is also a good measure — not many posts in between them.

19 William Barnett-Lewis  Nov 2, 2014 3:18:13pm

re: #6 Kragar

That would be incorrect

[Embedded image]

Look at the length of concrete sidewalk segment that both the police officer and the protester are standing on. While there is some perspective foreshortening happening here, I’d argue it’s not as pronounced as you suggest.

20 Charles Johnson  Nov 2, 2014 3:18:28pm

It’s a telephoto picture, no doubt, but with a pretty shallow depth of field.

21 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 3:18:33pm

Senators Criticize Growing Militarization of Local Police Departments
Democrats, Republicans Question Federal Programs Giving Military-Style Gear to Local Law Enforcement

online.wsj.com

Totally unnecessary and a threat to civil liberties.

22 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 2, 2014 3:19:50pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Are they a little bit closer in angle one? Look at feet and the cracks in the sidewalk. Maybe. Anyway yeah they were super close. Compression is not a factor this time.

23 whitebeach  Nov 2, 2014 3:22:19pm

Reminds me of the phony cop crap about all the soaking poors firing on helicopters in NOLA during Katrina. Lying bastards.

24 goddamnedfrank  Nov 2, 2014 3:26:21pm

re: #9 makeitstop

Pretty close.

That photograph was actually a pan shot. The cops and the pedestrian were moving at .99c relative to the photographer, who was being pulled sideways into a wormhole that exited opposite a neutron start. That explains the length contraction from the observer’s point of view. The photogrpaher was using a 4mm fisheye lens that was made by 100 magical German elves, weighed 20 tons and cost more than the GDP of Japan, however the relativity effects completely cancel out the barrel distortion, so that’s why everything looks normal.

25 makeitstop  Nov 2, 2014 3:28:34pm

re: #24 goddamnedfrank

That photograph was actually a pan shot. The cops and the pedestrian were moving at .99c relative to the photographer, who was being pulled sideways into a wormhole that exited opposite a neutron start. That explains the length contraction from the observer’s point of view. The photogrpaher was using a 4mm fisheye lens that was made by 100 magical German elves, weighed 20 tons and cost more than the GDP of Japan, however the relativity effects completely cancel out the barrel distortion, so that’s why everything looks normal.

I knew there was a logical explanation.
/

26 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 3:30:34pm

For what it’s worth, a blast from the not so distant past

27 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 3:32:42pm

For what it’s worth, just in.

AP Exclusive: Ferguson no-fly zone aimed at media

bigstory.ap.org

28 blah blah ad hominem mumbo jumbo.  Nov 2, 2014 3:34:13pm

re: #26 De Kolta Chair

OMG yes. What an awesome find.

29 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 3:35:50pm

Canadian warplanes drop laser-guided missiles over Iraq in Canada’s 1st airstrikes against Islamic State, Ministry of Defense says - @CBCAlerts
read more on cbc.ca

30 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 3:44:54pm

re: #26 De Kolta Chair

But even then, there were more union members overall in the US than today.

In 2013, the union membership rate—the percent of wage and salary workers who were members of unions—was 11.3 percent, the same as in 2012, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. The number of wage and salary workers belonging to unions, at 14.5 million, was little different from 2012. In 1983, the first year for which comparable union data are available, the union membership rate was 20.1 percent, and there were 17.7 million union workers.

bls.gov

The rightwing fight against unionization in the US beginning in the Reagan era has been quite successful.

31 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 3:45:50pm

re: #28 blah blah ad hominem mumbo jumbo.

OMG yes. What an awesome find.

What’s truly sad is how many conservative and corrupt (pardon the redundancy) unions continued to endorse Raygun after that shameful act. Thank the gawds for the reformist union movement of the 90’s and aughts, which weren’t reported about by most of the press.

32 Jenner7  Nov 2, 2014 3:46:55pm
33 Higgs Boson's Mate  Nov 2, 2014 3:49:48pm

re: #31 De Kolta Chair

What;s truly sad is how many conservative and corrupt (pardon the redundancy) unions continued to endorse Raygun after that shameful act.

The Teamsters voted to endorse Reagan in August, 1984. You got a problem with that?

34 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 3:49:48pm

Old tweet, but it never gets old:

35 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 3:54:26pm

re: #34 Backwoods_Sleuth

Old tweet, but it never gets old:

[Embedded content]

Ugh, yes.

In the local license plate store Friday when g-son was having title and license work done, a handmade sign said, “Have you thanked a soldier today?”

The mgr of this private company (has a contract w/the State) was dressed in her fatigues, working.

My g-son said WTF?

36 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 3:54:28pm

re: #33 Higgs Boson’s Mate

The Teamsters voted to endorse Reagan in August, 1984. You got a problem with that?


I’ll have to ask Joan Quigley about that before answering. Oops, too late.

37 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Nov 2, 2014 3:59:20pm

So it is clear that this is not just about a bad egg or an officer over-reacting. The rot goes all the way to the top, and beyond.

38 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 2, 2014 4:03:36pm

re: #36 De Kolta Chair

What cracks me up about her is how those who understand her claims about astrology to be total bullshit are the very people so ready to believe her claims about “How i ran the White House”.

Wut?

39 Vicious Piebola  Nov 2, 2014 4:04:55pm

re: #34 Backwoods_Sleuth

Old tweet, but it never gets old:

[Embedded content]

40 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 4:05:00pm

Nothing to worry about, folks. Expect Ferguson and St. Louis to set up a completely impartial investigative committee to look into this, headed by Rudy Giuliani, Bernard Kerik, and the ghost of Hermann Göring.

/snark to the tenth power

41 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 4:17:14pm

Can we hope that it’s stopped?

Overnight rain reduces smoke from lava flow near Pahoa, Hawaii, officials say; lava flow remains stalled - @AP
read more on bigstory.ap.org

42 goddamnedfrank  Nov 2, 2014 4:22:18pm

re: #38 Rightwingconspirator

What cracks me up about her is how those who understand her claims about astrology to be total bullshit are the very people so ready to believe her claims about “How i ran the White House”.

Wut?

Those are two rather unrelated things. Yes she sold abject bullshit, but Donald Regan is the one who broke the story that she sold that bullshit to Nancy so effectively that the White House event schedule and the President’s travel plans depended on it. So we have more than just her word on that score.

43 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 4:23:10pm


“Ho hum. Me and Sparky The Wonder Reporter are on the trail of a bombshell scoop involving Hillary Clinton and her dark connections to the Donner Party which will appear in the Intercept in 2035. Save the date!”

44 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 4:24:28pm

Preliminary data suggests structural failure may have played role in SpaceShipTwo crash in Mojave, Calif., sources tell @wsjbreakingnews
read more on online.wsj.com

45 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 2, 2014 4:24:58pm

re: #42 goddamnedfrank
As a sour grapes “buy my book” source not really any more credible AFAIK.

46 goddamnedfrank  Nov 2, 2014 4:33:25pm

re: #45 Rightwingconspirator

As a sour grapes “buy my book” source not really any more credible AFAIK.

You know that Nancy basically confirmed all of the claims in her own book, right?

47 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 4:35:49pm

re: #45 Rightwingconspirator

As a sour grapes “buy my book” source not really any more credible AFAIK.

Just saying “buy my book” automatically qualifies one to be a GOP presidential primary candidate.

48 goddamnedfrank  Nov 2, 2014 4:40:07pm

Michael Deaver also confirmed the use of Astrology in 2004.

Nancy would call him and tell him what were bad days for her and he would accommodate her by scheduling around them, but Deaver says he never believed in astrology himself.

“I would sometimes get bad dates in advance, when the stars were wrong, and so I’d sort of schedule around those,” he said. “It wasn’t very hard.”

Deaver, who was Reagan’s deputy chief of staff from 1981 to 1985, blamed himself for the news of Nancy’s using an astrologer getting out.

He told Donald Regan, who became chief of staff in 1985, just by way of briefing him. “I figured I should tell Don,” Deaver told Primetime. “I hadn’t told anybody in all those years that I was working.”

It’s weird people still don’t want to believe this happened. It’s not some kind of conspiracy theory, it’s been well documented by multiple sources involved. You can argue that the story got way overblown, and that Nancy was right in that there was no real harm involved, but it absolutely, definitely occurred.

49 Charles Johnson  Nov 2, 2014 4:44:47pm

Just had somebody tweet a really disgusting racist “cartoon” at me.

@tylermautz

Block/reported his sorry ass.

50 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 2, 2014 4:46:55pm

re: #46 goddamnedfrank

That’s about Nancy not the President. Look I realize this is all very attractive to Reagan critics. Proportionally so. That’s a rather telling fact in itself.

re: #48 goddamnedfrank

Michael Deaver also confirmed the use of Astrology in 2004.
It’s weird people still don’t want to believe this happened.

At least in my instance this is a straw man. Never said it never happened.

You can argue that the story got way overblown, and that Nancy was right in that there was no real harm involved,

You bet, it’s an obvious easy argument to make. Kinda makes the whole thing moot apart from latter day shots at RWNJ’s.

51 Bubblehead II  Nov 2, 2014 4:52:13pm

re: #49 Charles Johnson

Just had somebody tweet a really disgusting racist “cartoon” at me.

@tylermautz

Block/reported his sorry ass.

His avatar is pretty disgusting as well. Blocked and reported

52 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 4:54:14pm

re: #49 Charles Johnson

@tylerputz? //

53 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 4:55:43pm

54 goddamnedfrank  Nov 2, 2014 4:58:04pm

re: #50 Rightwingconspirator

That’s about Nancy not the President.

It’s about the Reagan White House. You took issue with Quigley’s claim, and I showed you that at least in terms of pre clearance of the schedule she was correct. Don Regan, Nancy, and Deaver all confirm this.

At least in my instance this is a straw man. Never said it never happened.

No, you said this:

What cracks me up about her is how those who understand her claims about astrology to be total bullshit are the very people so ready to believe her claims about “How i ran the White House”.

I pointed out how not only are those two totally unrelated things, but that we have independent confirmation about her claims of having at least some control over the schedule. Her statement was obviously over-broad if you ignore all the context, but she absolutely did have more say than any Astrologer ever should.

You bet, it’s an obvious easy argument to make. Kinda makes the whole thing moot apart from latter day shots at RWNJ’s.

Well, it’s also that the whole thing was kind of fucked up. I feel sorry for Nancy but it does speak to Ronald Reagan’s leadership as President that he allowed that irrational personal shit to filter down to his Chiefs of Staff and to dictate White House scheduling in the first place. Historically it matters, especially as the GOP has essentially beatified Reagan’s legacy, with all of the revisionism that entails.

55 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 4:58:09pm

re: #53 De Kolta Chair

[Embedded image]

I meant to vote early but things didn’t work out that way, unfortunately. Now, I’ll have to go on Tues but I’ll bet it won’t be crowded.

56 Vicious Piebola  Nov 2, 2014 4:59:03pm

This is a favorite wingnut meme:
Well, what do they think is a better idea? Criminalize unemployment? Fine/imprison people with no income? Make them work at Walmart for only food stamps?

57 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 5:00:19pm

re: #56 Vicious Piebola

This is a favorite wingnut meme:
Well, what do they think is a better idea? Criminalize unemployment? Fine/imprison people with no income? Make them work at Walmart for only food stamps?

[Embedded content]

Debtors prisons and potters graves are all they want for the unemployed.

58 Decatur Deb  Nov 2, 2014 5:01:01pm

re: #56 Vicious Piebola

This is a favorite wingnut meme:
Well, what do they think is a better idea? Criminalize unemployment? Fine/imprison people with no income? Make them work at Walmart for only food stamps?

[Embedded content]

Let’s just say that when these people read Dickens, they cheer for the wrong characters.

59 Indy GOP Refugee  Nov 2, 2014 5:01:17pm

re: #54 goddamnedfrank

Look I think my point stands in terms of people just looking at the astrologers claims. I don’t deny she was there or had Nancys ear. Or that Nancy had Reagans ear. I find the idea of any substantive impact on US policy highly unlikely. I find the whole thing to be as forgettable and unimportant as it is odd. IMHO.

60 Vicious Piebola  Nov 2, 2014 5:01:18pm

re: #57 Justanotherhuman

Debtors prisons and potters graves are all they want for the unemployed.

61 Bubblehead II  Nov 2, 2014 5:05:12pm

OT but what the heck. Charles, is any way I could convince you to add a tweet button on the menu bar for comments? Every now and again I see comments I would love to tweet but can’t. Comment #53 is a good example. I know you can do it for pages, but how about posts in a regular thread?

Thanks.

62 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 5:05:23pm

She left on her own terms.

Brittany Maynard friends and family post their goodbyes

63 goddamnedfrank  Nov 2, 2014 5:05:43pm

Michelle Obama planted a goddamned garden and tried to get peeps to eat a healthy diet and the right wing flipped the ever loving fuck out. I’m deaf from just trying to imagine the shit they’d scream if she’d consulted an astrologer. For one thing it’d be 100% witch doctors and voodoo talk on Fox News for months.

64 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 5:07:50pm

re: #55 Justanotherhuman

I meant to vote early but things didn’t work out that way, unfortunately. Now, I’ll have to go on Tues but I’ll bet it won’t be crowded.

I expect a very low turnout in my district, but my neighb generally votes progressive so it doesn’t matter all that much. Sometimes I wish I lived in someplace like Tennessee, where my vote would make a difference. And Tennessee is mighty pretty.

65 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 5:09:32pm

re: #60 Vicious Piebola

[Embedded content]

And none of them will ever face unemployment?

BTW, 1.7M families would lose food stamp benefits if wages were raised to just $10/hr, and federal revenues would gain over $7B.

People who make more pay more taxes, spend more on goods and services, and improve the economy, giving rise to even more employment.

And the economy has improved under the Obama admin slowly but surely. I see numerous “Hiring” signs all over the place here where it was hard to get a job even at Wallyworld a couple of years ago.

66 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 5:12:54pm

re: #56 Vicious Piebola


“Please sir, I want more derp.”

67 Targetpractice  Nov 2, 2014 5:14:11pm

re: #57 Justanotherhuman

Debtors prisons and potters graves are all they want for the unemployed.

“Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?”

68 Dark_Falcon  Nov 2, 2014 5:14:17pm

re: #31 De Kolta Chair

What’s truly sad is how many conservative and corrupt (pardon the redundancy) unions continued to endorse Raygun after that shameful act. Thank the gawds for the reformist union movement of the 90’s and aughts, which weren’t reported about by most of the press.

You weren’t here the last time we discussed the PATCO strike, but at the time I made the case that Reagan’s actions in that matter were not shameful at all. His administration had negotiated in good faith with PATCO and he honestly wanted a deal. But the rank-and-file air traffic controllers rejected the negotiated agreement and then the House Democrats opened up an investigation into if the proposed deal was a too-generous quid pro quo, as PATCO had endorsed Reagan in 1980.

With the House investigation, the Reagan administration couldn’t sweeten its proposed deal, and so the union voted to strike. More details here and in the book the site supports.

Long story short, the 1981 PATCO strike was really more about PATCO than Ronald Reagan. But the myths of the strike, both right and left, focus on Reagan, owing to the considerable influence his legacy still has.

69 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 5:14:51pm

God to Wallenda: Don’t do it!

Nik Wallenda’s tight rope walk over Chicago’s Loop pushed back till 8:30 pm ET, media told - @tvbrad
end of alert

70 Dark_Falcon  Nov 2, 2014 5:16:05pm

re: #69 Justanotherhuman

God to Wallenda: Don’t do it!

Nik Wallenda’s tight rope walk over Chicago’s Loop pushed back till 8:30 pm ET, media told - @tvbrad
end of alert

He’s actually walking over the Chicago River, just north of the Loop.

71 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 5:17:25pm

re: #70 Dark_Falcon

He’s actually walking over the Chicago River, just north of the Loop.

Wind and tightropes don’t mix well…

72 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 5:17:35pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I was here for that discussion and will say, for the record, that PATCO union members were entirely correct to strike over wages and working conditions, NONE of which have improved in the least since that time.
And the flying public continues to pay the price as well.
Reagan was full of shit.

73 Dark_Falcon  Nov 2, 2014 5:20:01pm

re: #72 Backwoods_Sleuth

I was here for that discussion and will say, for the record, that PATCO union members were entirely correct to strike over wages and working conditions, NONE of which have improved in the least since that time.
And the flying public continues to pay the price as well.
Reagan was full of shit.

What should he have done then? Make more concessions even while Congress was investigating his administration?

74 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 5:22:52pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

What should he have done then? Make more concessions even while Congress was investigating his administration?

He shouldn’t have inserted himself into the negotiations unless it was in good faith, which it was anything but.
He wanted to show he was a hardliner and bust a union, no matter the consequences.
But go ahead and keep believing Reagan had the the safety of the American public in mind.

75 Decatur Deb  Nov 2, 2014 5:26:20pm

The mission to turn the 4 yr old to the dark side continues. Yesterday we managed two trips through the Aluminum Overcast, the B17 visiting Montgomery. Today we hammered in roadsigns for an Alabama Dem, then spent the afternoon at Skydive Panama City, watching parachutists and birdshit fall out of the sky. Still to come: his overnight campout and the National Peanut Festival midway. Grandma has given up on the visit to the Botanical Gardens.

76 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 5:26:43pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

What should he have done then? Make more concessions even while Congress was investigating his administration?

Did he say, Will no one rid me of this meddlesome union?

Well, he did manage to wind up murdering it with some help.

77 Floral Giraffe  Nov 2, 2014 5:31:28pm

re: #75 Decatur Deb

Too funny! You corrupter you! Lucky kiddo!

78 Dark_Falcon  Nov 2, 2014 5:32:04pm

re: #74 Backwoods_Sleuth

He shouldn’t have inserted himself into the negotiations unless it was in good faith, which it was anything but.
He wanted to show he was a hardliner and bust a union, no matter the consequences.
But go ahead and keep believing Reagan had the the safety of the American public in mind.

Then why did the Reagan administration negotiate what observers of the time thought was a generous deal with PATCO?

And moreover, since I’ve already brought up the house Democratic investigation into an endorsement quid pro quo, why would the Reagan Administration target a union that had endorsed Reagan?

79 Decatur Deb  Nov 2, 2014 5:33:47pm

re: #77 Floral Giraffe

Too funny! You corrupter you! Lucky kiddo!

Still looking for a simple Estes rocket we can build. If he launches one at 4, he’s 3/2 as smart as CCJ.

80 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 5:34:44pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

Long story short, the 1981 PATCO strike was really more about PATCO than Ronald Reagan. But the myths of the strike, both right and left, focus on Reagan, owing to the considerable influence his legacy still has.

It’s always a warm fuzzy feeling when one’s perception of reality fits one’s needs, isn’t it?

81 Dark_Falcon  Nov 2, 2014 5:35:34pm

The real irony is that had Jimmy Carter been reelected, the PATCO strike would have become inevitable, because PATCO loathed the Carter Administration with great intensity.

82 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 5:35:46pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

Then why did the Reagan administration negotiate what observers of the time thought was a generous deal with PATCO?

And moreover, since I’ve already brought up the house Democratic investigation into an endorsement quid pro quo, why would the Reagan Administration target a union that had endorsed Reagan?

Please, explain what the “good faith negotiation” deal was that PATCO members turned down.
And I do NOT care if it was democrats or republicans who offered the deal. Reagan was the one who busted the union by firing ALL of the air traffic controllers. He did it.

83 Dark_Falcon  Nov 2, 2014 5:40:08pm

re: #80 De Kolta Chair

It’s always a warm fuzzy feeling when one’s perception of reality fits one’s needs, isn’t it?

Yes, it is. The PATCO strike is a classic example of the ‘Print the Legend’ phenomenon, and good as Collision Course is, the book hasn’t changed the legend. I doubted it could when it came out, for a story of the PATCO strike that reads as “The Tragedy of PATCO” was never likely to break the hold of the myths. Reagan simply still looms too large for something else to take center stage.

84 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 5:41:56pm

re: #81 Dark_Falcon

The real irony is that had Jimmy Carter been reelected, the PATCO strike would have become inevitable, because PATCO loathed the Carter Administration with great intensity.

Btw, I think you missed my point.

85 Dark_Falcon  Nov 2, 2014 5:42:26pm

re: #82 Backwoods_Sleuth

Please, explain what the “good faith negotiation” deal was that PATCO members turned down.
And I do NOT care if it was democrats or republicans who offered the deal. Reagan was the one who busted the union by firing ALL of the air traffic controllers. He did it.

And again I ask, “What other action should Ronald Reagan have taken once the strike had begun?”

86 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 5:42:59pm

DF has apparently never been in an air traffic control tower, and has no freaking idea why they went on strike.
Perhaps they should have just sat down, shut up, and continue working under horrific long-hour and workplace stress conditions.

87 Dark_Falcon  Nov 2, 2014 5:43:10pm

re: #84 De Kolta Chair

Btw, I think you missed my point.

Actually, I typed that comment before I had read yours.

88 jaunte  Nov 2, 2014 5:45:24pm

re: #86 Backwoods_Sleuth

Hey, it’s just air traffic safety. What society needs to pay a lot for that?
Now we can fire the food and drug inspectors, too.

89 Dark_Falcon  Nov 2, 2014 5:46:50pm

re: #88 jaunte

Hey, it’s just air traffic safety. What society needs to pay a lot for that?
Now we can fire the food and drug inspectors, too.

Goddamn it, I didn’t say or imply that!

90 Charles Johnson  Nov 2, 2014 5:47:07pm

re: #61 Bubblehead II

It’s actually on the to-do list already - I’ll get around to it at some point.

91 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 5:48:37pm

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

Actually, I typed that comment before I had read yours.

I’m deep into Joyce’s “Finnegans Wake,” so everything is up in the air and nothing and everything is coincidental.

92 jaunte  Nov 2, 2014 5:48:42pm

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

Reagan breaking the PATCO strike was inspirational for management interests for decades, and those interests in the short term are not served by attention to public safety.

93 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 5:48:51pm

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

Goddamn it, I didn’t say or imply that!

You really don’t get it, do you?

94 freetoken  Nov 2, 2014 5:49:43pm

Using one of those internet based random essay generators, and my proposed essay title is:

Aphorism and Perversion in Patco : Exhuming Resentful Demotion

Sounds good to me.

95 freetoken  Nov 2, 2014 5:52:26pm

I’ve always wondered if those fancy article titles in high end mags are generated by machine.

96 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 5:55:30pm

re: #81 Dark_Falcon

The real irony is that had Jimmy Carter been reelected, the PATCO strike would have become inevitable, because PATCO loathed the Carter Administration with great intensity.

So, Reagan or Carter it doesn’t matter, in your view it just all comes down to politics, not good faith negotiations.

97 Decatur Deb  Nov 2, 2014 5:56:06pm

re: #91 De Kolta Chair

I’m deep into Joyce’s “Finnegans Wake,” so everything is up in the air and nothing and everything is coincidental.

Couple good paragraphs recited here:

Youtube Video

98 TedStriker  Nov 2, 2014 5:56:36pm

re: #96 Backwoods_Sleuth

So, Reagan or Carter it doesn’t matter, in your view it just all comes down to politics, not good faith negotiations.

You should know better to ask that about Dark by now…of course it is.

PARTY UBER ALLES!

99 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 5:57:21pm

re: #98 TedStriker

You should know better to ask that about Dark by now…of course it is.

PARTY UBER ALLES!

sad and true…

100 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 5:58:23pm

Bob Dylan — High Water (For Charlie Patton)
Youtube Video

101 Dark_Falcon  Nov 2, 2014 5:59:11pm

re: #93 Backwoods_Sleuth

You really don’t get it, do you?

What I get is that the air traffic controllers were working in bad conditions. But the Reagan Administration’s ability to improve those conditions via a better contract was constrained by Congress. And once the strike had begun, Regan had few options and none of them good. I do get that the decision to issue PATCO what amounted to an ultimatum was driven in part by power politics, but it could hardly have been otherwise, The power politics of the strike had to be considered, given the realities of the Cold War and the Presidency.

But I also believe that the Reagan Administration did want to make a deal if possible, and I do not believe that either it nor PATCO acted in bad faith. At the end of it, I think how I’d sum it up is that PATCO had put out internal publications for years about how much a strike could achieve and the union simply never really looked at the bad-case scenarios of how a strike could wound or destroy them.

102 Charles Johnson  Nov 2, 2014 5:59:35pm
103 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 5:59:37pm

For some, traders on Wall St having coke in lines on their desks and strippers dancing around the office, music blaring, is seen as all right, Jack.

But public servants can go straight to hell while overworked like hell, and not collect their paychecks.

According to my friend, the postal carrier, post office mgmt is fucked up, too. She says “going postal” has a root cause. You either quit, get fired, or lose your mind. I’ve really never known her to be anything but sunny and positive, but she’s turned almost into a depressed wreck.

104 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 6:01:13pm

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

What I get is that the air traffic controllers were working in bad conditions. But the Reagan Administration’s ability to improve those conditions via a better contract was constrained by Congress. And once the strike had begun, Regan had few options and none of them good. I do get that the decision to issue PATCO what amounted to an ultimatum was driven in part by power politics, but it could hardly have been otherwise, The power politics of the strike had to be considered, given the realities of the Cold War and the Presidency.

But I also believe that the Reagan Administration did want to make a deal if possible, and I do not believe that either it nor PATCO acted in bad faith. At the end of it, I think how I’d sum it up is that PATCO had put out internal publications for years about how much a strike could achieve and the union simply never really looked at the bad-case scenarios of how a strike could wound or destroy them.

So Reagan’s solution to the stalemate was to FIRE ALL THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS!!!!111!!!

Yeah, there’s a leader…

105 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 6:04:29pm

“Evaluated” being the key word…

Patient being evaluated for Ebola virus at Duke University Hospital in Durham, NC, hospital says - @Duke_Medicine
read more on duke.edu

106 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 6:05:16pm

re: #97 Decatur Deb

Couple good paragraphs recited here:

[Embedded content]

Video

Around 20 years ago, I had the great pleasure of bending elbows with Liam Clancy for an afternoon at Milano’s dive bar on Houston Street in NYC. What a fine gentleman he was, and a precious character. I’ve run into plenty of characters in my time and generally love them (or leave them) all, but they don’t make ‘em like Liam anymore.

107 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 6:07:01pm

re: #106 De Kolta Chair

Around 20 years ago, I had the great pleasure of bending elbows with Liam Clancy for an afternoon at Milano’s dive bar on Houston Street in NYC. What a fine gentleman he was, and a precious character. I run into plenty of characters and love them all, but they don’t make ‘em like Liam anymore.

No whisky, but think I’ll have an early season glass of Riesling…

108 freetoken  Nov 2, 2014 6:07:45pm

My thesis:

The conflict surrounding PATCO demonstrates the central nexus of the conflict between marxism and statism. Given that anthropological studies have shown that flying is a form of sexual liberation, a likely cause of this conflict is sexual repression by the state.

109 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 6:08:39pm

When Congress constrains things, executive orders come to mind…

Oh wait, that’s what Reagan did to fire the air traffic controllers.

110 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 6:09:15pm

re: #108 freetoken

Have you read too much Erica Jong?

111 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 6:09:17pm

re: #107 Justanotherhuman

No whisky, but think I’ll have an early season glass of Riesling…

For the past 35 years, it’s been just beer for me, though I will take a short snort of someone’s drink if they rave enough about it.

112 Targetpractice  Nov 2, 2014 6:10:59pm

Perhaps I’m missing something, but if Reagan was constrained by Congress in what he could offer to PATCO to prevent a strike, then just how was he supposed to guarantee the “generous” offer he made, the one that Congressional Democrats supposedly objected to?

113 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 6:11:23pm

re: #110 Justanotherhuman

Have you read too much Erica Jong?


Hey, zip it! ///

114 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 6:11:46pm

re: #111 De Kolta Chair

For the past 35 years, it’s been just beer for me, though I will take a short snort of someone’s drink if they rave enough about it.

I only drink in the presence of others. Either online or in person. : )

Cheers!

115 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 6:12:42pm

re: #112 Targetpractice

Perhaps I’m missing something, but if Reagan was constrained by Congress in what he could offer to PATCO to prevent a strike, then just how was he supposed to guarantee the “generous” offer he made, the one that Congressional Democrats supposedly objected to?

pesky detail that runs counter to revisionist history.

116 BigPapa  Nov 2, 2014 6:13:14pm

re: #107 Justanotherhuman

No whisky, but think I’ll have an early season glass of Riesling…

I like a good reisling

117 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 6:14:39pm

re: #116 BigPapa

I like a good reisling

And I only drink German Riesling (since they invented it).

118 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 6:17:30pm

re: #102 Charles Johnson

$s = preg_match(‘/[.?!]$/’, $s) ? $s : $s . ‘…’;

The GOP’s birth control platform: pregnancy = $?

119 jaunte  Nov 2, 2014 6:18:26pm
120 jaunte  Nov 2, 2014 6:19:50pm
Sen. Ted Cruz has been a team player to help Republicans take the upper chamber, but that will change, he says.

Apparently we haven’t yet seen the “extreme” Cruz.

121 Targetpractice  Nov 2, 2014 6:21:34pm

re: #119 jaunte

[Embedded content]

In other words, pretty much what I expected. The upper chamber is going to become a mirror of the lower chamber, constantly beset by party infighting as Cruz leads the extremists in pushing for confrontation on every issue while the few remaining “moderates” try to avoid votes that will weigh against them in 2016.

122 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 6:22:02pm

re: #117 Justanotherhuman

And I only drink German Riesling (since they invented it).

My mother loved Liebfraumilch.

123 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 6:22:55pm

re: #119 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Because the over-ambitious Cruz wants to be majority leader?

Hahahahahaha.

I actually listened to him yesterday, and he scared the shit out of me.

124 jaunte  Nov 2, 2014 6:25:00pm

re: #123 Justanotherhuman

He reminds me of the character Martin Sheen played in The Dead Zone.

125 Targetpractice  Nov 2, 2014 6:25:31pm

You can already hear how McConnell, desperate to get the base out on Tuesday, making promises he can’t keep. Like passing bills to repeal the ACA, or simply sections of it, despite knowing that no scenario for the GOP will give them the necessary votes to override a veto.

126 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 6:26:21pm

re: #114 Justanotherhuman

I only drink in the presence of others. Either online or in person. : )

Cheers!

Salud!

127 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 6:27:53pm

re: #122 De Kolta Chair

My mother loved Liebfraumilch.

I haven’t had that since the 60s, it was my next choice after Boone’s Farm (!) which we drank like soda and passed around like a joint. it’s “beloved lady’s milk” in German. Very sweet.

128 BigPapa  Nov 2, 2014 6:28:24pm

re: #117 Justanotherhuman

And I only drink German Riesling (since they invented it).

Germans knew what they were doing. I like em strong with a touch of the oil.
Not none of those pansy California sweet bombs.

129 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 6:29:14pm

re: #125 Targetpractice

You can already hear how McConnell, desperate to get the base out on Tuesday, making promises he can’t keep. Like passing bills to repeal the ACA, or simply sections of it, despite knowing that no scenario for the GOP will give them the necessary votes to override a veto.

I’m just gobsmacked at the crap lies showing up in my mailbox and the bullshit robocalls I’m getting.

Tuesday can’t come soon enough.

130 allegro  Nov 2, 2014 6:32:27pm

re: #129 Backwoods_Sleuth

I’m just gobsmacked at the crap lies showing up in my mailbox and the bullshit robocalls I’m getting.

Tuesday can’t come soon enough.

I’m in Texas. I fear Tuesday will not be a happy day so I can wait. (I voted early.)

131 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 6:37:15pm

Mechanical problem?

White House: President Obama switches planes in Philadelphia while traveling back to Washington, DC, due to mechanical problem - @NBCPhiladelphia
read more on nbcphiladelphia.com

132 Belafon  Nov 2, 2014 6:37:35pm

re: #130 allegro

I’m waiting until Tuesday myself, but if I weren’t a serious optimist, Texas would crush me.

133 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 6:39:31pm

North Carolina Department of Health says possible Ebola patient arrived in US from Liberia on Oct. 31 via Newark Airport; patient developed fever Sunday - @ABC11_WTVD
read more on abc11.com

134 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 6:40:33pm

re: #130 allegro

I’m in Texas. I fear Tuesday will not be a happy day so I can wait. (I voted early.)

We don’t have early voting in Kentucky, except for absentee voting (which MrBWS did last month).
My truck is on the disabled list this week, so I have someone coming to drive me to the polling place, otherwise it’s a 14-mile roundtrip walk for me (which I will do if necessary to get rid of Mitch).

135 jaunte  Nov 2, 2014 6:40:39pm

Safety shortcuts.

136 bratwurst  Nov 2, 2014 6:40:48pm
137 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 6:41:13pm

re: #135 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Safety shortcuts.

FREE MARKETS!!!111!!!

138 BigPapa  Nov 2, 2014 6:41:26pm

I really hate DST now. Have to wait another hour for Walking Dead.

At least I have this to drown my sorrows.

139 jaunte  Nov 2, 2014 6:42:51pm

re: #137 Backwoods_Sleuth

FREE MARKETS!!!111!!!

But I see by the BP commercials that Gulf beaches are sparkling clean!

140 Justanotherhuman  Nov 2, 2014 6:43:05pm

re: #135 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Safety shortcuts.

I haven’t bought BP oil since that happened. The only BP station around here closed, and was replaced by a Shell (about 1/2 mi from my apt) and now we don’t have to go out of our way for the cheapest price.

141 Belafon  Nov 2, 2014 6:43:13pm

re: #133 Justanotherhuman

North Carolina Department of Health says possible Ebola patient arrived in US from Liberia on Oct. 31 via Newark Airport; patient developed fever Sunday - @ABC11_WTVD
read more on abc11.com

Is there a Newark, North Carolina, or did Christie’s quarantine procedure fail to actually pick up on someone who might have the disease? (I suspect this is another false alarm, but it points out the problems with the NY/NJ response.)

142 Backwoods_Sleuth  Nov 2, 2014 6:43:46pm

re: #139 jaunte

But I see by the BP commercials that Gulf beaches are sparkling clean!

and the seafood is so safe to eat!

143 Decatur Deb  Nov 2, 2014 6:44:34pm

re: #136 bratwurst

I would rather be in a locked room with Kaci Hickox than Joni Ernst.

That’s what the piglet said.

144 De Kolta Chair  Nov 2, 2014 6:44:54pm


What’s an internet?

145 Belafon  Nov 2, 2014 6:45:01pm

re: #136 bratwurst

I’m pretty sure I’d rather contract Ebola from an infected Hickox than be in a room with Ernst. At least I can be cured of the thing I would catch from Hickox.

146 BigPapa  Nov 2, 2014 6:56:51pm

re: #145 Belafon

I’m pretty sure I’d rather contract Ebola from an infected Hickox than be in a room with Ernst. At least I can be cured of the thing I would catch from Hickox.

Oh, very well played. That Wingnut Ebola is incurable.


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