LGF

When Islam Breaks Down

Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 2:16:01 pm PDT

A very provocative and somewhat depressing article by Theodore Dalrymple, on the ragged edge where unassimilated Islam meets traditional European culture: When Islam Breaks Down.

Anyone who lives in a city like mine and interests himself in the fate of the world cannot help wondering whether, deeper than this immediate cultural desperation, there is anything intrinsic to Islam—beyond the devout Muslim’s instinctive understanding that secularization, once it starts, is like an unstoppable chain reaction—that renders it unable to adapt itself comfortably to the modern world. Is there an essential element that condemns the Dar al-Islam to permanent backwardness with regard to the Dar al-Harb, a backwardness that is felt as a deep humiliation, and is exemplified, though not proved, by the fact that the whole of the Arab world, minus its oil, matters less to the rest of the world economically than the Nokia telephone company of Finland?

I think the answer is yes, and that the problem begins with Islam’s failure to make a distinction between church and state. Unlike Christianity, which had to spend its first centuries developing institutions clandestinely and so from the outset clearly had to separate church from state, Islam was from its inception both church and state, one and indivisible, with no possible distinction between temporal and religious authority. Muhammad’s power was seamlessly spiritual and secular (although the latter grew ultimately out of the former), and he bequeathed this model to his followers. Since he was, by Islamic definition, the last prophet of God upon earth, his was a political model whose perfection could not be challenged or questioned without the total abandonment of the pretensions of the entire religion.

But his model left Islam with two intractable problems. One was political. Muhammad unfortunately bequeathed no institutional arrangements by which his successors in the role of omnicompetent ruler could be chosen (and, of course, a schism occurred immediately after the Prophet’s death, with some—today’s Sunnites—following his father-in-law, and some—today’s Shi’ites—his son-in-law). Compounding this difficulty, the legitimacy of temporal power could always be challenged by those who, citing Muhammad’s spiritual role, claimed greater religious purity or authority; the fanatic in Islam is always at a moral advantage vis-à-vis the moderate. Moreover, Islam—in which the mosque is a meetinghouse, not an institutional church—has no established, anointed ecclesiastical hierarchy to decide such claims authoritatively. With political power constantly liable to challenge from the pious, or the allegedly pious, tyranny becomes the only guarantor of stability, and assassination the only means of reform. Hence the Saudi time bomb: sooner or later, religious revolt will depose a dynasty founded upon its supposed piety but long since corrupted by the ways of the world.

The second problem is intellectual.

That’s a small, out of context excerpt from a very well-developed essay. Go ye and read of it.

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1 scaramouche  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:18:43pm

I thought Dalrymple's essay was perhaps the most eloquent and perceptive analysis of the situation that I have ever read.

2 Robert  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:25:55pm

Wow, very informative and depressing at the same time...I wonder what resolution will be made to resolve this issue..for that matter i wonder if a resoultion or compromise is even possible given the constraints of Islamic society and structure!

3 Sydney Carton  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:26:10pm

City Journal is great. It's a shame it doesn't come out more often.

4 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:26:11pm

Are you joking?

Okay, Christianity distinguishes by nature between church and state. Riiight. Tell that to Torquemada or Pat Robertson.

While a succession of corrupt popes sent millions to death in order to enhance the opulent lifestyle of the church and subject Jews and other undesirables to unspeakable torture, the Muslim courts of Andalucia, Cairo, and Baghdad were the most tolerant places in the world. Of course, it's right to ask what went wrong, but let's not delude ourselves.

5 Robert  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:29:32pm

Pat Robertson has no direct involvement in American Government. At most you could label him as a lobbyist for his cause. However he has no direct means to exercise pollitical power.

6 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:29:39pm

#4 Marshall

'Tolerant Muslims courts' is bullshit. Read Bat Ye'or and learn. Or STFU. Idiot.
7 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:31:50pm

OT, somewhat, but this has been bothering me for a while:

Charles, others, would anyone here be interested in starting a thread about how to deal with friends and family on the other side of the argument?

I had a long, contentious and fruitless discussion with my brother last night. He has been brainwashed into believing the "tiny minority of extremists" view of Islam, to the point where, when I mentioned something about the Hamas charter and their avowed aim of destroying Israel, he actually claimed that the charter and what it says simply doesn't matter. He also thinks Yassin was a spiritual leader.

My brother is not an idiot, folks, but he may be an Idiotarian. Nevertheless, I'd like to know how others among you may have succeeded in arguing such points with friends and family on the "other side." I don't want to give up on discussing this stuff with my brother, but it's reached the point where it seems nearly pointless. He has a habit of bringing up all the reasons why our being attacked is our fault; he believes that the two-state solution would put an end to most Islamic terror; he drags in episodes from America's past to counter any atrocities from the Islamofascists; in short, he's of the school that says if only we had done things differently here, there and everywhere, "they" would have no reason to hate us.

Any help out there from LGFers with similar LLL dogmatists in the family? How does someone who "gets it" engage those who don't - or refuse to...?

[NB, Charles: I got no replies when I posted this at the tail-end of an apparently dead thread, so please forgive the double post.]

8 Mark  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:34:10pm

I think our current attacks on Iraqi fundamentalists are counterproductive. We're allowing them to make us out to be the bad guys, when it's actually Islam and its medieval worldview that is the problem.

We need to step back, isolate the Islamic countries, and let them stew in their juices until the people of those countries have had enough of it. Remember how that worked with the Soviet Union? It never cost us even one soldier's life to topple the Soviet Union. All we had to do was sit back and let news of our prosperity and freedom leak into Soviet society. The people lost faith in the system, directed their anger at it -- rather than us -- and it collapsed from within. By being willing to militarily engage the Islamicists we give them a chance to paint themselves as Islamic patriots.

There was a long article in the New Yorker about a journalist who went to Saudi Arabia to teach basic journalism. One of the things that stuck with me was how the Saudi friends he made confessed that they were "suffocating" under the regimes oppressiveness. They'd been used to making trips to the west for some of the fun that our free societies permit, and letting off steam. But since 9/11 they didn't feel comfortable coming here and thus the pressure was building up.

Good. That's just what we want -- let them stay there, let them become thoroughly frustrated, give the Islamicists no opportunities to blame us for their problems, and let the whole region simmer in its pathological juices until the masses of people (like the Iranians who've had a good taste of Islamicism) overthrow the mullahs themselves.

9 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:35:20pm

Mr. Pol (Pot):

Thanks for the engaging debate. Do you happen to know where my ancestors spent the middle ages?

10 LT  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:35:25pm

OT -- but good news is nice for this thread:

Iraq Insurgents Release Up to 12 Hostages

11 andrew  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:37:19pm

#7 Cato the Elder

I would like to see a thread like that also.

12 FH  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:37:20pm

Mark, it cost us lots of lives to win the Cold War. 50,000 in Korea, then there was Vietnam, and plenty of other hot spots. Containment relies on force to keep them bottled in. And in the process, they have the full opportunity to acquire nukes and other WMD, and the means to deliver them. Containment is not a viable solution when dealing with people who love death more than they love life.

13 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:40:58pm

#9 Marshall

Did they leave you some written history? Or are you just spewing more bullshit?
14 Buckaroo  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:41:21pm

#8 Mark

"Remember how that worked with the Soviet Union? It never cost us even one soldier's life to topple the Soviet Union. All we had to do was sit back and let news of our prosperity and freedom leak into Soviet society. The people lost faith in the system, directed their anger at it -- rather than us -- and it collapsed from within"

Setting aside the falsity of your second sentence -- we don't have the 45 years the rest of your paragraph outlines. Also, as has been posted many times before, even if they were offically atheists, the Soviets at least liked the premise of a long life. The current enemy has no such scruples. Therefore, direct action against them -- in response to the provocations they have made over the past three decades -- remains the only way to win ...

15 Charles  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:41:54pm

Marshall wrote:

Okay, Christianity distinguishes by nature between church and state. Riiight. Tell that to Torquemada or Pat Robertson.

But it does. One of Jesus' core tenets was expressed in "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's."

Individuals and governments have done bad things in the name of Christianity. This is no secret. But Christianity does distinguish between Church and State, in the very words of the founder.

16 Buckaroo  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:42:50pm

FH was much more concise and succint than I ...

17 Mark  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:43:18pm

#12 FH:

But we lost Vietnam and we had a tie in Korea.

The lesson I'm beginning to take from Iraq and Vietnam is this: we won't succeed if we are invading another country to try to impose democracy. The people in the country have to be willing to fight for it themselves. Apparently not enough of the Vietnamese were -- too many wanted communism. So, they were going to have to have communism and live under it and learn for themselves that it doesn't work. Same I think for Iraq -- the mass of people in Iraq have to stand up and fight for democracy themselves. We can't do it for them. An outsider trying to impose democracy on them is only going to be resented. It's a battle they have to fight and win themselves.

I think we'd do better to concentrate on perfecting our own freedom so that our example of prosperity and liberty shines out into the world as an example. That is as subversive of repressive regimes as anything. We need to be strong so that we can't be invaded, and if we are attacked by a country we need to hit them so hard that the lesson is never forgotten. But I don't think this strategy of military intervention in third world countries to establish a non-corrupt, democratic government is going to work.

18 lester  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:44:36pm

great article. there are so many books and articles and book length articles that a writer has to work hard to get my attention. as they should.

19 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:44:48pm

#17 Mark

You don't get it, do you? The Islamic world hates the West because of the West freedom and prosperity, not despite it.
20 scaramouche  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:44:57pm

#7 Cato the Elder

I think it comes down to the serenity prayer: we should "accept the things we cannot change" and have "the wisdom to know the difference". I, for one, have decided it's an exercise in futility to discuss political matters with my father-in-law, who is el cubo to the core. From now on, for the sake of our blood-pressure, we will confine our discussions to the banal and uncontentious--like the Mars rovers and our mutual fondness for the novels of Anthony Trollope.

21 LT  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:45:44pm

#8 Mark

We need to step back, isolate the Islamic countries, and let them stew in their juices until the people of those countries have had enough of it.

So, we should build a very long, tall wall between us and the moslem territory""? (rimshot)

Sorry for the cheap shot, but have we really thought about "what's cooking" in the Islogical Kamps? Let us ask a couple of detail-type questions, which of course we must call "food for thought":

1) Would that be "Chemical" juices or "Biological" juices?

2) Who is the planned target to be stewing in these juices, again?

Sorry, friend. I don't *want* to marinate in mustard gas or the latest in biological buglets...

The Soviet situation was mainly government driven, not jihadi driven. Big difference in the concepts, I think.

Response?

22 FH  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:48:56pm

Thank you Mr Pol. I tried to get that across, but I guess I couldn't.

The United States is hated by the Islamists because we represent the abosolute opposite of the Islamist dream: An open, pluralistic, tolerant society with jude-christian ethic combined with a seperation between church and state. We are their worst nightmare.

23 Mark  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:49:55pm

#14 Buckaroo:

I disagree that we don't have 45 years to wait. If we refuse to let people from these countries enter ours, they have no way to harm us. They'll never have a navy or air force or intercontinental missile that could reach us. We can isolate them, refuse them entry to the West, and sit back and let them squabble and stew until they overthrow the mullahs themselves. Look what's happened in Iran -- the US has become popular with much of the population again and we did nothing but leave them alone to stew in their backward Islamic repression.

On the other hand, I don't see how your strategy of military aggression can work in the long run. In the short run we can kill militants, but we make lifelong enemies of their families when we do, breeding more enemies. We can't seek out and kill every fanatic over there. I think it may be naive to think that we can kill and maim enough death-loving fanatics to make them change their minds. All we're doing is providing them a convenient boogieman to hate and a distraction from the fact that Islam is what is keeping them down.

24 scaramouche  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:50:46pm

#22 FH

Exactly. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness vs. death, tyranny and the embrace of misery.

25 SoDamnInsane  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:52:18pm

OT:Arab TV networks accused of fueling violence in Iraq

"Al-Jazeera is regularly the butt of criticism, often misplaced," spokesman Jihad Ballout told AFP.

Al-Jazeera's spokesman's first name is Jihad? Is that a common name in the Arab world?

26 One of These Days...  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:52:37pm

An economic solution is the only viable one. Until it is more attractive to lead a successful, productive life, than to be martyred, their society will be in a perpetual, static, bloody state. This will only happen if there is a seperation between church and state. Isreal is a religious identity, yet, there is religious freedom and democracy, and SECULARISM. Quite frankly I think the pali's fight Isreal because they see how a secular society can create a thriving oasis in the middle of a sand pit with few natural resources, and they want a peice.

Doublespeak at it's finest:
"Allah u Ahkbar! Jihad!!, but we want jobs inside Isreal damnit!!"

/confused jihadi

PS: WTF do the mullahs and imans know about the free market mechanism?

27 Buckaroo  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:52:52pm

#15 Charles

A few weeks after 9/11, my church at the time, being good LLL Presbyterian U.S.A. folk, invited several members of a local mosque (Detroit suburbs -- no shortage of them around mind you!) to a dinner and then had them give a "introduction" to Islam. They trotted out all the usual talking points -- jihad means personal stuggle, civilians are never to be targeted, suicide is expressly forbidden, blah blah blah blah ...
But I (finally) saw the light in a recurring theme in their comments. When asked about any subject, they would respond with "Well, here we do such-and-such, but in a Muslim country **everyone** does such-and-such"
"but in a Muslim country this is not allowed ... "
"but in a Muslim country these are always present ... " etc. etc.


Now, I still cling to the hope that Muslims can coexist with others in a secular, pluralistic country such as the present-day USA, (or Israel, or even Turkey) but as soon as someone mentions "Islamic Republic" I can assure you that myself & my family ain't gonna be frequenting there -- ever!!!

28 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:53:06pm

#23 Mark

Defensive military action worked well enough for the U.S. against Japan, Germany and Italy. Men haven't changed since then. It will work this time, too.
29 Gary Bruce  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:53:43pm

Newsflash:

President Bush will hold his first solo news conference of the year on Tuesday night to update Americans on U.S.-led efforts in Iraq, the White House said on Monday.

"We are at a critical period in Iraq and the president looks forward to talking to the American people and updating the American people where we are in Iraq right now and where we are headed," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.

30 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:54:00pm

#26

Root out Islam, and the Arab world has a chance. It's that simple.
31 JohninLondon  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:54:09pm

T Dalrymple has written an astute column for the Spectator for years.

He is a doctor, working in an inner-city hospital (I think London's East End) and also with prisoners. So he tends to see life from the sharp end.

For instance :

[Link: www.newcriterion.com...]

32 Mark  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:56:02pm

#19 Mr Pol:

"You don't get it, do you? The Islamic world hates the West because of the West freedom and prosperity, not despite it. "

I'm very well aware that the hatred of the west is based in envy. And I say great! Let them hate and envy us. And let them live for a couple decades under a taliban-type rule of their own choosing until they've seen for themselves how it is incapable of providing what they need to prosper.

The fanatics will surely not change their minds any time soon, just like the aparatchiks in the Soviet Union had no interest in changing the system. But the mass of ordinary people WILL change their minds and overthrow the system themselves.

#21 LT:

"So, we should build a very long, tall wall between us and the moslem territory""? (rimshot) "

Yes, metaphorically speaking, we should. Allow no more students, visitors, or immigrants from these middle eastern countries. If we don't let them in, they have no way to force their way in. And withdraw from their part of the world entirely. Separate ourselves. Stop giving them a punching bag.

33 David 'Parisian Insider'  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:57:39pm

Marshall
The errors (and horrors) of the Church, up to the 18th century, are related to their unduly seizing power. But this was contrary to the christians rule. Call it a human perversion of christendom if you want.

On the contrary, there is no separation between the clergy and the state in Islam. Islam is a true theocracy.

As to the tolerance of the Muslims in al Andalus, this must be put in perspective with the tremendous obscurantism and intolerance of the Catholic church at that period. Hence the Muslims were more 'tolerant' than the Chritians for a time, but this notion of tolerance is of course absolutely different from what we call tolerance nowadays.
Always remember the concept of protection or 'dhimma', which conferred the right to live to the people of the book, under particularly debasing conditions.
Read Bat Ye'or.

34 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:58:22pm

#32 Mark

History shows what leaving tyrant with a strong propaganda machine in power means. Alas, you don't seem to have a clue.
35 twisterella  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:59:19pm

Ok then. I have some serious issues with this thread.

1. Carlyle's translation sucks. I thought it had been largely discredited.
2. Islam is not "brittle". It is virile and resilient. Consider the conversion numbers.
3. The Qur'an is not the "weakness" of Islam, but its strength. It permeates every aspect of Islam, and is a potent enforcer of memes.
4. To his detractors, Muhammed would say, "then, if you don't believe this is the "uncreated, revealed word of god", you make one!" As a scientist, that claim is easier to believe then that, say, the King James translation of the Bible is the incontrovertable word of god.
5. Get real! If this puff piece about the relative glories of christianity is true, then why are we having so much trouble? Why doesn't Islam just crumble instead of spreading and acquiring converts?

Look Charles, I'm disagreeing with you! Your mind control program is malfunctioning.

36 Ray  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:02:17pm

Marshall - Torquemada lived from 1420 - 1498. Half a millenium ago. Please find another example just a bit more relevant to today's world. Your example of "tolerant" muslim courts is similarly outdated. As for Pat Robertson, as someone else noted, he has no means to politically impose his religious beliefs upon anyone.

Cato the Elder - your brother has "faith". He cannot be convinced to believe something inconsistent with his "religion". The only counter is to lead him further down his illogical path. For the purpose of conversation just grant that what he says is true and then ask if the USA or "the West" is forever condemned by his version of the "orignal sin" we've committed. If everything he says is true, what is the solution available to us? (There is none, regardless of the "reasons", Islamofacism is what it is and we either submit or fight, those are our choices.)

Mark - As someone above mentioned, containment of the Soviet Union was not "bloodless". It also required a shared idea of the value of life and some behavioral limit meaningful to both sides. Containment is expensive in terms of lives and money and it requires some common recognition of sanity and insanity. Islamofacism does not recognize the behavioral limitations that prevent willful mass murder.

37 Mark  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:03:11pm

#28 Mr Pol:

"Defensive military action worked well enough for the U.S. against Japan, Germany and Italy. Men haven't changed since then. It will work this time, too. "

Perhaps. The question is, how much money, how many lives, and how much time are you willing to spend to find out if Iraq is another Germany, or another Vietnam? I voted for Bush, I'll vote for Bush again, I favored toppling Saddam 100%, and I favor giving the Iraqis a shot at independence and democracy. But if we are still there in two years, beign attacked, spat on, resented...and if in two years we are still patrolling, trying to suppress uprisings, suffering casualties...and still having to oversee every aspect of Iraqi government to keep it from falling apart, I for one am going to be willing to say This Isn't Working.

I expected more from the mass of Iraqis. I expected demonstrations expressing support of us -- tens or hundreds of thousands of Iraqis standing up to say they want democracy. We are not seeing that.

My deadline is a couple years. What's yours?

38 abc  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:04:13pm

I know they need reform.

But, the problem isn't so big as that, in more practical terms.

They've needed reform right from the start, but terrorism is a recent problem, in its current proportions.

The problem that first must be solved, before any reform, is the clerics.

The clerics are inciting their following masses to kill.

And this must be met with an appropriately strong force, strong enough to stop it, but not so strong as to make things worse.

Some of the clerics need to talked to, some of them need a good beating, and some of them need to be killed.

Let's get on with it!

39 Buckaroo  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:04:27pm

#23 Mark

"They'll never have a navy or air force or intercontinental missile that could reach us"

I think your second word is misspelled -- it should be s-o-o-n (see Terhan, Damascus, etc.). And I thnk your last word is unclear. As long as they don't reach Miami, Boston, San Diego, or Seattle every other portion of the globe is far game? I haven't heard that kind of isolationist talk since Lindbergh!

"We can't seek out and kill every fanatic over there."
Why not?

"I think it may be naive to think that we can kill and maim enough death-loving fanatics to make them change their minds."
You call it naive, I call the alternatives foolhardy.

"All we're doing is providing them a convenient boogieman to hate and a distraction from the fact that Islam is what is keeping them down."
Ah yes, the "if we were just nice they'd eventually come around" argument. Do you have kids? I've got three, and I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and let them be victimized somewhere down the line because we tried to be "nuanced" in our treatment of a fanatical, deadly enemy!

40 Chet Roi  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:06:16pm

#4 Marshall

The Church’s fling with the secular state began with the Edict of Milan, when Constantine not only recognized Christianity but also made it the State Religion of the Empire. Bishops were appointed by the State and were civil servants. In the West, Augustine introduced the concept of “a total and compulsory” Christian society but his ideas weren’t made reality until the 8th century under the Carolingians. In both cases though, the Church did not constitute the State; the State co-opted the Church. Ecclesiastical officials had secular duties and were appointed by the King. The Carolingian Kings were the Chief Bishop – not the Pope. It wasn’t until the 12th century pontificate of Gregory the 7th that the tables began to turn and the Pontifical King was replaced by the Regal Pope. They battled back and forth until the 19th century but there was always a clear distinction between the secular and the ecclesiastical.

The Pat Robertson remark was just dumb.

41 RoP really chappin' my hide abu Chapped Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:06:23pm

Related article, more about the lack of debate within our own country, despite 9/11.

I am fast losing faith that our current system will be able to handle the onslaught of jihadis aided by our own fifth column. As the Baltimore Sun article above shows, our own gov't is hogtied by PC claptrap. If you can't have open debate, you shoot yourself in the foot.

PC concepts about "separation of church and state" (which is one of the more misunderstood political topics) hamstring our ability to actually IDENTIFY the enemy, let alone engage them (for instance, insisting on secular Afghan/Iraqi constitutions). The only thing working in the PC Idiotarians' favor is that the level of US blood shed at the hands of jihadis has not meant much to the avg guy on the street, as a visceral threat. That means the jihadis have a green light to continue with large-scale attacks. When a major financial center like NYC goes up in a mushroom/poison/germ cloud, I can just hear the baying of the LLL as the avg joe cries for proportional response...against someone, anyone. If we can't bring ourselves to do so even then, we're done for.

/pessimist Monday

42 scaramouche  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:06:45pm

#35 twisterella

Have to disagree. Sharia is a weak because it is so inflexible and because it is not up to the task of helping people negotiate their way through the modern world. The only way it can prevail is to turn back the clock to a pre-modern time. Ultimately, I don't think that's not going to happen.

43 Billy Hank  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:07:32pm

#7 Cato -

Seems this notion that we face a small, loosely coordinated group of Jihadists spread across several nations has a firm root in the LLL psyche. It lets them attack the Iraq war as unjustified, quibble about Afghanistan, and hysterically oppose any further actions against the Religion of Peace. Being LLL, there are several many offshoots from this main meme.

My process after 9/11 was to start learning more about Islam than funny shoes and hats with tassels. Someone pointed me to Daniel Pipes, someone else to LGF. DenBeste's analysis of why war with Afghanistan was not going to be Vietnam made a big impression. He articulated the global sweep of our current effort in chapter and verse 30 months ago.

From my own background, I would suggest a more vigorous PR campaign internally within the US to expose the scope. There are problems with this approach. The RoP line is politically necessary to avoid forcing other Islamic countries to put their oar in the water. The LLL media will counterattack with as much venom and logic now coming from the 9/11 panel. Just investigating and reporting the stories that surface in LGF and other blogs would be a big help. People are getting better at stripping the media bias out of a story to get a closer approximation of the facts.

Maybe something like the Ace of Spades newsjacking idea Bill Quick of Daily Pundit is touting would help. [Link: ace-o-spades.blogspot.com...]
I hope someone figures it out soon.

44 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:09:09pm

#37 Mark

Viet-Nam was lost in the U.S., not on the battle field. People like you are the reason countless Vietnamese died trying to leave, while many more lived as slaves and are still not living as human beings today. But the difference between Viet-Nam and the WoT is that, while there was no existential danger to the U.S. in folding in Viet-Nam, Islam poses a real existential threat not only to the U.S. but to the whole Western civilization. This means that, just like WWII, the U.S. cannot and will not fold. That's the strength of democracies - preferring death to slavery.
45 One of These Days...  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:11:39pm

#30 Mr. Pol

They don't even need to eliminate Islam. Just f'n chill out, and realize that tribes are out baby. They have a gold mine in their hands, and they squander it. If the market were left to it's own devices in Muslim (especially Arab) lands, I envision unprecedented growth in GDP, employment, and quality of life. But this won't happen until religious fanaticism, and the ridiculous pride dynamic are simply outgrown.

This is the very essence of the vision for the middle east that the current admin has. And IMHO it gets a fraction of the credit it deserves, even from the right.
If somehow, we hold this thing together, have democratically elected leaders, and good economic growth in Iraq, the rest will fall into place. Fanatiscism will decline in favor of a fat job to help in the aquisition of that new benz'.

47 Buckaroo  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:12:17pm

Mark (I know you asked Mr. Pol, but I'll answer for myself)


"My deadline is a couple years. What's yours?"

As long as it takes to erase the existance of totalitaian fascist regimes that threatens a country or countries practicing open, pluralisitic, representative governance ...

48 RoP really chappin' my hide abu Chapped Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:12:20pm

38 abc

And this must be met with an appropriately strong force, strong enough to stop it, but not so strong as to make things worse.

Wrong. Deterrence was enough to keep the bloody Soviets at bay, it'll surely be enough to keep the Jihadis...threaten their holiest sites with massive over-retaliation at the next terrorist attack. You'd get whiplash seeing how quickly Iran/Syria/Saudi Arabia/Pakistan could clean up their little terrorist allies with a sword hanging over them.

49 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:13:39pm

#45

Keeping Islam means keeping tribalism and sha'ria. Because both are mandated by the Qu'ran. Get rid of the Qu'ran, and you've gotten rid of Islam.
50 twisterella  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:14:43pm

scaramouche:

OK then. Shar'iia law is not weak-- consider it has preserved tribal behavoirs of the bedouin tribes for thousands of years. How is it "weak"?

#15 Charles: Now it does.

51 Mark  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:15:12pm

#39 Buckaroo:

"Ah yes, the "if we were just nice they'd eventually come around" argument. "

I said nothing about "being nice". I wouldn't spend one iota of effort "being nice" to Islamics. I said, withdraw from their territory and isolate them from ours. We have the power to do that; they don't. Isolate them and let them stew in their own juices. What does that have to do with "being nice"?

As for killing every fanatic over there: you may have the stomach for that, but the American public won't. We're already negotiating at Falluja. There is no way we can hunt down and kill every fanatic there without becoming the kind of people we don't want to be.

It's one thing to topple a dictator that 98% of the population hated. Hey, I'm all for that. It's one thing to topple and kill the leadership of a country that explicitly gave aid and comfort to terrorists that attacked us. I'm all for that. It's another thing to try to force democracy on a country where a large percentage of the Average Joe population believes in Islamism and where the remainder are unwilling to stand up and fight the fanatics themselves.

As for Lindbergh-style isolationism: hey, sign me up baby. I'm tired of being blamed for the world's problems. No one appointed us the world's policeman or the world's charity organization. I'm ready to pull back within our borders, tighten up immigration controls 1000%, and let the rest of the world figure it out without us.

52 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:16:29pm

8 Mark

We need to step back, isolate the Islamic countries, and let them stew in their juices until the people of those countries have had enough of it.

Been there, done that. Look what it produced.

53 konshtok  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:17:18pm

Judaism has the same (theoretical?) relation to the state as Islam . The religion IS the law and the law is the religion and yet even the most religious jews , the ones so orthodox they consider maimonides to be way too secular , have no problem with the modern world . They might feel challenged by it but not humiliated and they certainly don't go for violence.
So I don't think this whole church/state thing is relevent outside of christianity since christianity is the only religion in the west that developed something like the church.
Personaly I think that people chose the ideology or religion that justifies what they would be doing anyway. Islam is not the problem of the arab/muslim world it is just the excuse.

54 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:18:47pm

#51 Mark

As for Lindbergh-style isolationism: hey, sign me up baby.

Why did Hermann Goering, a high Nazi official, present Lindbergh with a German medal of honor? I guess you want a Jihadi one.

55 abc  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:19:24pm

48

You took that out of context. I was talking about the amount of force applied to the clerics.

The clerics are inciting their following masses to kill.

And this,[these clerics], must be met with an appropriately strong force, strong enough to stop it, but not so strong as to make things worse.

Some of the clerics need to talked to, some of them need a good beating, and some of them need to be killed.

56 scaramouche  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:20:04pm

#50 twisterella

How many bedouins are there in the world? More to the point, in the modern world? Their credo is strong as long as they stay in the desert with the sand flies and camels, but I don't see too many bedoins straying into the modern world. Islam can only prevail by destroying modernism. I don't think it's up to the challenge.

57 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:22:26pm

#56 scaramouche

Islam can only prevail by destroying modernism. I don't think it's up to the challenge.

The current situation in Europe proves you wrong.

58 RIP Ford Ali Abu Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:24:37pm

#32 Mark

While I understand your wish to isolate ourselves from those who clearly express their desire to murder us, it has become impossible and pointless to pull up stakes and fall back within the fort. The fort is now obsolete. The new threats from abroad no longer come from a world that pits army versus army, but us against determined individuals who deem it necessary not only to beat us, but to kill us. You can not stand behind a wall while these individuals develop the capabilities to float a nuclear warhead in a tanker into New York harbor, or develop biological/chemical weapons for use on New York Subway. In this new age, we can only be proactive. Think, pre and post 9/11. We were caught flat footed.

This from me, an isolationist at heart. We can not make that mistake again. That world, with the US protected by our distance, no longer exists.

59 RoP really chappin' my hide  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:25:15pm

36 Ray

Cato the Elder - your brother has "faith". He cannot be convinced to believe something inconsistent with his "religion". The only counter is to lead him further down his illogical path.

Man, the LLL/ROP marriage of convenience giving my faith a bad name. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." It relies on evidence...facts that "add up" for some but don't for others. Idiotarianism and Islam are cults...forms of "religiosity" that are more interested in simple-minded sloganeering and judgment than in reality.

"Islam is a religion of peace"
equals
"Bush is an international terrorist"
but does NOT equal
"Jesus rose from the dead...hallelujah! What does this mean for humanity?"

60 One of These Days...  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:25:29pm

#49 Mr. Pol

Yeah, I know, it would be nice. If I had my agnostic/atheist way, I would erase any trace of religion from politics. But, I don't think we have enough missionaries available to change the mind of every muslim. ; )
However, if economic growth and secularisation take root, literal interpretation of the Koran and fundamentalism would suffer a serious blow.

Ex: All the silly fucks from Sadr's posse are dissaffected ghetto youth. Get them a job, and the rally cry loses it's appeal.

Money trumps everything

61 Buckaroo  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:27:16pm

Mark

"As for Lindbergh-style isolationism: hey, sign me up baby. I'm tired of being blamed for the world's problems. No one appointed us the world's policeman or the world's charity organization. I'm ready to pull back within our borders, tighten up immigration controls 1000%, and let the rest of the world figure it out without us."

Sorry -- I'm not about to acede to the rest of the world figuring it out -- didn't work in '14, didn't work 'in '38 etc.
From Tony Blair's speech to Congress --
"And I know it's hard on America, and in some small corner of this vast country, out in Nevada or Idaho or these places I've never been to, but always wanted to go. I know out there there's a guy getting on with his life, perfectly happily, minding his own business, saying to you, the political leaders of this country, 'Why me? And why us? And why America?'
And the only answer is, 'Because destiny put you in this place in history, in this moment in time, and the task is yours to do.'"

62 abc  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:31:03pm

53

Islam is not the problem of the arab/muslim world it is just the excuse.

It's the excuse used by the clerics five time a day to incite hatred, mutilation, and murder.


It's the clerics stupid!


And the rank and file muslims too. But they are susceptible to the programming they receive, highly susceptible.

And they are getting a huge dose of bad programming.

Stop this first, then do whatever you want. But this is the strategic threat, the strategic source of the threat, and changing this is the strategic solution.

63 David  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:31:33pm

#60 one of these days

Money trumps everything


Ah yes, the Saudis Wahabbis are just a bunch of 'dissaffected ghetto youth'

64 ralph  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:31:56pm

#57 mr pol

>
Islam can only prevail by destroying modernism. I don't think it's up to the challenge.

The current situation in Europe proves you wrong.


I disagree. The moslem in Europe are moving into to a cultural vacuum created by LLL multiculti nonsense.

65 RoP really chappin' my hide  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:33:44pm

55 abc

Respectfully, I disagree. I was talking about the clerics as well, and more specifically about their basis for respectability in the Arab world. It's hard to respect someone who's an extinct species. Funny how the world turns? For thousands of years the way to change a culture was to destroy its idols. Subjugate its gods and its people followed. Taking out the main centers of Islamic "spirituality" would cause a massive transformation of Islam for the better. And for those who'd cry "foul", point to the American occupation/transformation of Japan at the end of WWII, where we took a racist, tyrannical, militant belief system and shoved it into the light.

Unpleasant topic, to be sure, but necessary to think about.

66 Gary Bruce  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:35:34pm

Chapped Johnson:

the level of US blood shed at the hands of jihadis has not meant much to the avg guy on the street, as a visceral threat. That means the jihadis have a green light to continue with large-scale attacks.

This is the one great fact that I have never understood--why the average American doesn't get enraged at the casualties. Perhaps everyone does know what the score is, and scared of having to fight a general war along religious lines because of the likely death count involved. Anything to avoid that situation... until Plan A fails and everyone flips over from denial to hysteria and implements Plan B, ie, World War IV. I think that's where we are nationally: "Let's try the soft way, and if that doesn't work, we'll get tough."

67 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:35:45pm

#60

Been there, done that, lost one WTC. You think trying harder is the solution? I don't.

#64 ralph

I disagree. The moslem in Europe are moving into to a cultural vacuum created by LLL multiculti nonsense.

And what is Political Correctness, in your opinion?

68 Q  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:41:00pm

twisterella (#53):

Why doesn't Islam just crumble instead of spreading and acquiring converts?

Because Islam speaks to the basest instincts, to the weakest minds and to the blackest souls -- and there never is shortage of those.

69 twisterella  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:43:40pm

scaramouche:

Seems like those guys with boxcutters and jets full of fuel were pretty capable of using our technology against us.

Look, I'm more craven about this issue than anyone. I just think we need to see. Try to think about it this way. Islam is analogous to a computer virus, and the Qur'an is the code. It spreads like any virus, by acquiring reps. Sure, it means your death, and mine, and it doesn't care if you're a christian or a jew or a druid, you're other. Comparing Islam to Christianity is a useless way of stopping or changing it-- the only parallel is that both are religions.

70 RoP really chappin' my hide  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:46:59pm

66 Gary

Agreed. And in this light--God forbid we have a major WMD attack here in the states--it wouldn't be the jihadis that'd concern me...I think we'd step up to the plate and let some nuclear-tipped cruise missiles fly. What concerns me is that it'd precipitate a larger nuclear exchange between the major powers.

(Wasn't there some movie called "War Games" or something that followed along these lines?) What REALLY confuses me is why Russia/China don't side with us more in the ME, post-90's. The extreme position would be to carve up the region's resources after a massive war. Perhaps they see it as a power play in the long run, but whenever we give up/lose they're going to have to take over.

71 abc  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:47:06pm

65

OK, you're being respectful. I probably won't be able to, but I'll try.

It's hard to respect someone who's an extinct species.

This means you want to kill all the clerics, 'extinct' them all. And frankly, this is naive.

It's naive because you do not take into consideration what the rest of the muslims would do, how they would react.

Your idea is based on the fallacy that it's possible to frighten people into peace, or submission. This is not true, possible. Especially with religious people, being harped to five times a day.

Wiping out all their clerics would draw them together in an unimaginably tight way. They would seeth and plan and live for the day to retaliate.

And we'd be boxed in with no alternative but to kill all the rest of them.

And that would be bad.

72 twisterella  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:52:04pm

Q: Certainly that's true. The tribal memes preserved in Islam attract those sorts of converts. But to a population geneticist a rep is a rep.
I agree with you. I disagree with Dalrymple.

73 abc  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:53:20pm

65


transformation of Japan at the end of WWII,


This is not really true either.

Japan has not been changed very much.

What actually happened in Japan was that we added something they didn't possess.

Japan is still very much Japan. They have not been transformed.

74 RoP really chappin' my hide  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:53:42pm

71 abc

Nuh-uh.

This means you want to kill all the clerics, 'extinct' them all. And frankly, this is naive. It's naive because you do not take into consideration what the rest of the muslims would do, how they would react.

Not necessarily. I'm talking about not just the clerics, but their centers of power. Think "shock and awe" on the major mosques, at minimum. I don't care, do it at night the first time, saying "we warned you".

Dammit, they started this thing, they keep inciting, you warn them of the consequences, then bam. How can the five pillars of Islam persist when one of the pillars is a smoking crater?? I'm sorry but any softer approach is only tactical in nature and counter-productive in the long run.

75 Clutch abu Sticky Tape Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:54:58pm

Re: "When Islam Breaks Down"

Dude, that bastard offspring of a Trabant - Yugo tryst religion has already broken down. It's blown a rod, cracked its block, stripped its gears, the front-end is pigeon-toed, the wheels are warped, the brakes are frozen, the heater blows hot air all the time, the AM radio gets only one incomprehensible furrin-language station, gas tank is full of camel-piss and someone stole the damn steering wheel! Someone call the motor league and have it towed off to the nearest crusher. Don't think that there is anything there worth salvaging; even the rear bumper is messed up with all those "Boom-Boom U", "My kid's picture is on the wall at Spodeydope School For Junior Jihadis!" and "I (heart) C4!" bumperstickers...

76 RoP really chappin' my hide  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:58:14pm

73 abc re Japan

WHHAAAT?!?!?! The emperor was viewed as a god. MacArthur specifically demanded that this "god" obey him, specifically to show that their "sacred cows" weren't sacred. Read some more history on the reconstruction...it's very fascinating. I will totally agree with you that shades of the old are still there, but their society was rapidly reinvented. We dictated the terms unconditionally.

77 scaramouche  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:58:55pm

#54 Mr. Pol

Lindberg may have been an America Firster, but he was also fond of the notion of Aryan superiority and a rabid Jew-hater. Ironically, his wife Anne Morrow Lindberg, had a torrid affair with Antoine St. Exupery, the author of the children's classic, The Little Prince. St. Exupery was a pilot whose plane went down fighting for the French Resistance. The wreck was located recently, 60 years after the fact.

78 ralph  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:58:59pm

#67 mr pol

And what is Political Correctness, in your opinion?


I believe that scaramouche(the name of JfinK's boat) is correct when scaramouche stated:

Islam can only prevail by destroying modernism.


The moslems have moved into a cultural vacuum in Europe created by the LLL and its multiculti nonsense. This manifests itself by the head covering affair in France. The hardline moslem are pushing the limits with this affair. The same with the Finsbury mosque guy Mr. Hook who is pushing the limits of "free speech". So, my point is that the moslem pushes the marbles forward and relentlessly.

79 Kevin Shook  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:59:35pm

#73 -

In what ways has Japan not changed?

80 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:00:53pm

#78 ralph

The same cultural vacuum is called 'PC' in the U.S. It's not a European-only sickness.
81 scaramouche  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:03:36pm

#66 twisterella

I don't disagree with you about the perils of Islam or our blindness about it. You may not want to compare it to other religions, but I think it may be instructive to contrast it with them. At the end of the day, the point is to know your enemy.

82 twisterella  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:04:00pm

No, no, no. Jeez, what do I have to do, sprinkle my posts with random ass-fuckings to get you guys to read them? Its...not...the...same. It's even more scary. I just want to understand the mechanism. How do you stop a virus? By killing individual reps? You have to do that faster than regeneration rate. Bombing mosques and killing clerics just won't cut it.

83 RoP really chappin' my hide  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:07:58pm

81 scaramouche

Even a historical theological comparison would be useful...something better than the usual "comparative religion" claptrap.

84 gl  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:08:21pm

Let's take a breath. While I have little respect for a good deal of Sharia we should recognize that much of the radicalism was spawned by Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia after they had the oil revenue to spend on spreading their message through madrassas in other parts of the Muslim world. Turkey and Malasia have not been antagonistic to the non-Muslim world and India has the largest Muslim population of any country but it seems to be somewhat tempered by a fairly benign representitive government. Turkey, India, Malaysia (and maybe Kurdistan?) are the real test of Islam and moderity.

Furthermore, watch Iran - Persian Americans who have visited Iran recently - to multiple areas - suggest that the regime is under tremendous pressure from the huge younger population that know nothing of the Revolution and are constantly pushing against the limits of "acceptable" behaviour - Americans are more popular there than anywhere in the Muslim world, official government hatred and verbal abuse notwithstanding.

twisterella - one of the reasons Islam is "spreading" is exactly because of it's non-imbrace of modenernity. A fundamental tenant of which is the education of women which, in every society has resulted in a dramatic decline in birth rates. The only areas of the world where this has not occured is in the most backward parts of sub-Saraha Africa and the Muslim Middle East - even affuent Saudi Arabia has an exploding population - so Islam is not "spreading" as much as reproducing faster than the non-Muslim world (outside of India, Indonesia, and Malysia where birth control has been a major inititiative for decades.)

85 Jakester  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:09:33pm

Great Quote:
Is there an essential element that condemns the Dar al-Islam to permanent backwardness with regard to the Dar al-Harb, a backwardness that is felt as a deep humiliation, and is exemplified, though not proved, by the fact that the whole of the Arab world, minus its oil, matters less to the rest of the world economically than the Nokia telephone company of Finland?

86 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:11:06pm

#82 twisterella

Stopping an infection requires antibiotics, granted. You often have to treat the symptoms, too - by giving drugs to lower the fever, for example. Killing terrorists is treating the symptoms, gaining time until the antibiotics take hold.

That's what the US is supposed to do in Iraq: set up a secular democracy to stop Islam. The other alternative, frankly, is to kill the patient then burn the body to stop the plague from spreading. Luckily, there are now weapons that allow to do both at the same time.

87 Jakester  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:11:10pm

To #4 Marshall
Get up to speed Marsh, at least enter the 20th century. As far as I know, Pat Robertson doesn't exhort his followers to kill and burn!

88 twisterella  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:14:45pm

Mr. Pol, I am shocked! Antibiotics only affect bacteria, not viruses.

89 Colt  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:15:31pm

#84 gl

While I have little respect for a good deal of Sharia we should recognize that much of the radicalism was spawned by Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia after they had the oil revenue to spend on spreading their message through madrassas in other parts of the Muslim world.

The Saudis have played their role, but Wahhabism is only 250 years old, and Islam's shitty record starts more like 1400 years ago.

Turkey and Malasia have not been antagonistic to the non-Muslim world and India has the largest Muslim population of any country but it seems to be somewhat tempered by a fairly benign representitive government.

Malaysia was, until recently, ruled by a Jew-hating lunatic who called for the destruction of Israel and a war against the West - to the applause of the world's Islamic leaders (including Karzai). India is a Hindu country, and the Muslims know that they'll be slaughtered if they try anything because that's what usually happens. Turkey is secular at the point of a gun.

Furthermore, watch Iran - Persian Americans who have visited Iran recently - to multiple areas - suggest that the regime is under tremendous pressure from the huge younger population that know nothing of the Revolution and are constantly pushing against the limits of "acceptable" behaviour - Americans are more popular there than anywhere in the Muslim world, official government hatred and verbal abuse notwithstanding.

But the students are not observant Muslims, and many are apostate.

90 scaramouche  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:16:13pm

#82 twisterella

I think we all get that it's very scary and like a rampaging virus. No one here is discounting or downplaying the threat, especially since the virus's DNA is encoded with a particularly nasty form of Jew-hatred and anti-Americanism. If you're saying there's no hope for Western civilization--is that what you're saying?--I'm not prepared to agree at this point. I still think and hope and pray that the good guys will finally win.

91 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:16:43pm

#88 twisterella

Yup. That's why I used "infection". Do you know how many viruses we are able to cure today? None. The virus analogy means it's time to sterilize the place.
92 Grover  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:18:08pm

I'm just glad I found this site recently. Sometimes it feels like I am surrounded by people in "real life" who have NO respect or appreciation for the daily freedoms they enjoy. I am a musician by trade and I am surrounded by these anti-American nut jobs all the time. I have been trying to put my finger on just why they hate GWB so much and I truly feel it comes down to an elitist intellectual superiority problem. These folks don't think they are smarter than the president, they "know" it. To them, Bush represents plain-spoken stupidity, and they "know" better than that "dumb Texan. "

To Cato: I have the same issues in my family. My younger brother is so anti-American, anti-government, anti-George Bush, pro-Michael Moore, pro-anyone who hates the US. The difference is, I realize this and don't bombard him with my opinion of the world. But he feels that freedom of speech means he can spew his crap to me whenever he wants, without me picking his world view apart. If I choose to pick his world view apart, he says I'm inhibiting his freedom of speech. I love my brother very much, but he is a poor misguided leftie, and I only wish there was hope for him.

And now Andy Rooney. Damn, what the hell is this world coming too. I love Andy's commentary, but its much better when he sticks to issues he's better at handling, such as unused kitchen appliances.

I began researching islam after 9/11 to figure out what I really believed. I saw the same pattern as you lovely people. They are on a mission to destroy the west. Make no bones about it, they have declared war upon us. I am so confused by my fellow Americans and how quickly they forget the events and horror that have proceeded 9/11, let alone that fateful day. Where are my countrymen, outraged and ready to defend our way of life? Freedom and liberty are worth dying for, but not according to many I know. I asked one of my leftie friends a very simple question after being berated by him for my personal views on Iraq and the middle east.

"Would you fight for your country if they come to attack us on our shores, in our homes?"

"They won't do that, it just won't happen!" he said.

American's memories (and the worlds) are shorter than ever. Even though I brought up 9/11, that wasn't enough for him.

What will it take?

I want to thank you all for the discourse here. It truly is more intelligent than anything I've read in awhile. Sure, we get some anger put into violent statements here, but they are just statements, not actual acts of violence. Let's all remember who is causing and promoting the violence.

And one quick clue, it isn't the West.

Let us shine the light of truth upon those villians who would side with the enemy becuase its "cool" to hate America. Let us shine the light of truth upon those who believe they are in such a "horrible" country. And let us not ever forget what happened during the holocaust, even if this crazy, mixed-up world is sliding back into forgetfulness.

Thanks for letting me delurk and join the discourse.


PS: I'm a former democrat also.

PPS: They day I switched was the day I saw a "protester" marching with a sign portraying G.W. Bush as Hitler. To the left, please stop the Hitler comparison. To compare any American president to Hitler is beyond vile. It is very simply, irresponsible.

93 abc  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:18:12pm

79

In what ways has Japan not changed?

What I mean is, go to Japan, it's still Japan, very much Japan.

The changes made after WWII, in the big scheme, didn't really change Japan as much as some people think.


I'm not saying there were no changes. I'm saying that the changes that took place did not destroy the culture of Japan, or really change it that much, over all.

Some people in America like to beat their chest like the great conquerer. We did win the war, but we didn't change Japan that much, culturally.

The changes left behind by America in Japan are light and comfortably worn. Like a light summer jacket, two pockets with flaps, airy khaki with flannel lining, easy to slip on.

The ideas were easily integrated, completely incorporated, and after a while, transparent.

Japan just has a few more 'things' now, than before. It's not a clone of America the way most people think.

94 RoP really chappin' my hide  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:20:24pm

82 twistarella

Yeah, I agree, it's called total war against a declared enemy: radical Islam...i.e. Islam.

95 twisterella  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:20:24pm

#84 gl: True. The replacement rate in Europe is very low, due to an aging population. Immigrant populations of young, fertile muslims are reproducing at much higher rates than the native EU populations. But Islam also acquires converts at a fantastic rate amoung young disenfranchised XY beings. What do we do about both issues?

96 RIP Ford Ali Abu Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:20:39pm

#92 Grover

Welcome aboard.

97 ralph  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:25:30pm

#80 mr pol

The same cultural vacuum is called 'PC' in the U.S. It's not a European-only sickness.


The problem of the EU is that it is attempting to take ethnic "ghettoes"(ie countries) and form them into a multiculti society. America took people from all over the world and (tried to make)made them Americans.

98 LT  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:26:07pm

#7 Cato the Elder

Here's a start (sorry about the length):

Has he seen anything posted on MEMRI?

Abu Hafs: "If terrorism is killing people who are really innocent, that is, those whose killing Allah has prohibited, such as women, children, and the elderly, and non-combatants, then we are not terrorists. Just as we worship Allah by waging Jihad against those who should be fought and killed, thus we worship Allah by refraining from killing those whose killing was prohibited by Allah."
Only "armed soldiers" in the World Trade Center?

Abu Hafs: "This terrorism is a divine commandment. Allah has said: 'Make ready for them whatever you can of armed strength and of mounted pickets at the frontier, whereby you may daunt the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others beyond them whom you know not' [Koran 8:60]. Striking horror, panic, and fear in the hearts of the enemies of Allah is a divine commandment, and the Muslim has in this matter two choices: Either he believes in these verses, which are clear, or he denies these verses, and [becomes] an infidel. The Muslim has no other option."
To turn from Islam is punishable by death...

Isolated view?
"Peaceful" Preaching Weekly

A Popular Preacher and a Boy

Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, one of the most popular Imams, is especially vocal on this issue. During one sermon, he repeats the following discussion he had with a child who approached him about becoming a suicide bomber: " A young man said to me: 'I am 14 years old, and I have four years left before I blow myself up'… We, the Muslims on this good and blessed land, are all - each one of us - seekers of Martyrdom…

Also, try Q&A Web sites
Anesthesia is forbidden

OTOH,
Despotism, Islamic Style
Here's a quote worth mulling over:

Actually, unjust rule constitutes the worst danger for the Muslim Ummah (nation), for deviant authorities do not base their rule on Islamic Shari`ah. They separate political affairs completely from religion. They follow the way of the enemy instead of following the way of Allah. This ruling methodology leads to religious degeneration and a life of loss.

Why men and women can't be friends in Islam
Absolutely "no" to peace, and criminals cannot be punished, or: "He hit me back, so I have to hit him first again!"

Non-Qur'an holidays?
Look carefully: "christians" (anyone in a Western culture, even athiests, is a "christian") are "kaafirs" or Unbelievers (to be conquered or killed--maybe the "Star Trek" Borg analogy would help here):

hadeeth: “Whoever innovates something in this matter of ours (Islam) that is not part of it, will have it rejected.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim).
Examples of that include Mawlid al-Nabi (the Prophet’s birthday), Mother’s Day and national holidays, because in the first case there are innovated acts of worship which Allaah has not prescribed, and because it involves imitation of the Christians and other kaafirs. And in the second and third cases there is imitation of the kuffaar.

War Ethics: Executing repeat captive soldiers, International Law immoral, etc.

Notice that? Official position:

And above all, this is not a nicety to be taken or left by the state. It is a binding religious dictate overruling emotion and prejudice: otherwise it would be a grave violation of Islam.”

Lots of graves being filled in violation of these rules; how "binding" on the leaders/fighters are they?

Kissing Wife in front of children forbidden This is one of many, many detailed religious rules. (Sleeping on your stomach is also forbidden, by hadeeth.) This is an example of the "ultra controlling" facet of mainstream Islam.Breaking promises can be required

Whoever promises someone that he will do something haraam for him, or that he will not do something that is obligatory, it is not permissible for him to fulfil that promise.


(It is okay to promise, knowing you won't keep the promise!)

Being forced is one of the impediments that make it permissible for a Muslim to break his promise, such as one who is detained or is prevented from fulfilling his promise, or who is threatened with a painful punishment.


(If "threatened," the promiser is also excused--that could be prearranged!)

On a lighter note:
Forget TV guide-type magazines!

"It is impermissible to publish magazines and newspapers that show pictures of women..."
99 Buckaroo  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:28:27pm

#96 RIP

A big amen to that! Great post, Grover.

100 RoP really chappin' my hide  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:28:58pm

93 abc

The changes left behind by America in Japan are light and comfortably worn. Like a light summer jacket, two pockets with flaps, airy khaki with flannel lining, easy to slip on.

LOL, I'm hearing that in the voice of "Peterman" from Seinfeld. I think we're arguing two sides of the same coin. America by definition (at least since 1918) doesn't care a rat's patootie about traditional colonizing...we like "expeditionary" forces, a light footprint in the long run. It suits our style more. BUT (a big but), this was only AFTER 4 years of brutal, all-out, vicious war in which hundreds of thousands of their civilians died and we just steeled our guts and thought it necessary. Couldn't have the latter without the former.

101 Colt  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:29:01pm

#7 Cato the Elder

I had a long, contentious and fruitless discussion with my brother last night. He has been brainwashed into believing the "tiny minority of extremists" view of Islam, to the point where, when I mentioned something about the Hamas charter and their avowed aim of destroying Israel, he actually claimed that the charter and what it says simply doesn't matter. He also thinks Yassin was a spiritual leader.

Your brother might get/have got good grades, but that sounds idiotic to me. If he's denying what the Arabs are saying about their objectives, then I for one don't know what to tell you. The only thing that I've found useful in persuading people is using terrorists' own words and actions to demonstrate what we're dealing with. If that fails, I don't know what else would work.

102 scaramouche  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:29:34pm

#98 LT

This is an example of the "ultra controlling" facet of mainstream Islam.

It's called micro-managing. On a cosmic scale.

103 twisterella  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:30:08pm

scaramouche: Oh, no, We don't need to give up, but our best bet is to change the coding, like Micheal Ledeen suggested. His approach would be radio and tv.

Umm, my biggest objection is to the use of Carlyle's translation of the Qur'an. Carlyle was a racist. I just hate that "big white christian bwana stuff". It interferes with productive analysis.

Thank you all for discoursing with me. I have to go, since it's feeding time and I have 5 humans, 8 horses, 9 cats, 3 dogs and a dragon to feed.

Sorry about the ass-fucking Charles, are you going to ban me?

104 EDY  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:31:08pm

UNLESS THE US IS WILLING TO FIGHT THIS WAR THE WAY WW2 WAS FOUGHT, WE CAN NOT WIN. THERE IS NO RESPECT IN THE ME FOR NICENESS.
WE SHOULD GET OUT IF WE ARE GOING TO FIGHT IT WITH OUR HANDS TIED.

105 One of These Days...  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:37:10pm

#63 #67
Yeah, i almost forgot, thus:

My Bad

106 Grover  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:38:56pm

#96: Thank you! Glad to be here.

I have a feeling that we will see more and more people switching to independent "news" sites such as this one as time goes on. The media are leftists, we all know that common fact, and I for one, don't want their news anymore.

Where is the generation my grandfather was a part of? The great generation that so bravely fought WW2?

What has happened to us as a whole? I don't want to believe that middle eastern culture is equal or superior to the west. It just isn't. Period, end of argument. I don't want to understand these people, not if they don't want to understand us.

Doesn't the left get that fact? We are expected to be tolerant of their culture, but they don't have to be tolerant of ours? Does this make any sense to anyone?

I know that most people on this board would be more tolerant if they saw the same coming from islam. But you wont. Their religion doesn't allow it.

107 Mr Pol  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:39:26pm

#97 ralph

The problem of the EU is that it is attempting to take ethnic "ghettoes"(ie countries) and form them into a multiculti society. America took people from all over the world and (tried to make)made them Americans.

Rich European countries also took people from other countries and made them into nationals. That's why Sarkozy is French. But they are not doing it any more.

The US took people from all over the world and made them Americans. Past tense again. Today, it is not doing that any more, it is attempting to take ethnic ghettoes and form them into a multiculti "society".

What's the difference between Europe and the U.S. ? 10 years? Less than that?

108 LT  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:44:11pm

#32 Mark

If we don't let them in, they have no way to force their way in.

They're in.

Now what?

109 Q  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:45:40pm

Re: Islam as a virus.

Another useful point of the analogy is that viral infection cannot be cured by any external means. The best the pharmaceuticals can do is to alleviate (some of) the symptoms. What does (or NOT) overcome or prevent the viral infection, is the organism's own immune system.

The same holds true to a society* as a whole. Whenever its intrinsic defenses are weakened (PC rot etc.), Islam -- or some other virus of similar nature -- is able to take hold.

---
*As a libert(ine)arian, I would be tempted to proclaim: "There is no such thing as society," were it not demonstrably untrue -- for better or worse, there is. And sometimes, it's a benevolent entity, all the collectivist perversions -- including Islam -- notwithstanding.

110 Model4  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:46:29pm

Mmmm. Now that's good thread!

#50 twisterella: You're making a big mistake in failing to see the difference between the religion and the practitioners. I can give you a recipe for the perfect casserole. One day you decide to make it, and use motor oil and iron filings just for kicks. The next day you tried again and cooked it at 1300 degrees for 20 hours. On and on and on. Is it the recipe's fault the dish turns out so crappy when its instructions aren't followed?

#64 ralph :

Islam can only prevail by destroying modernism. I don't think it's up to the challenge.

Wrong. Islam has a long history of living off plunder and leeching. It takes, the other is weakened. Islam grows and (usually) doesn't lose ground. A scimitar is far more deadly than an F-15, if the pilot doesn't have the will to use his plane.

#71 abc :

Your idea is based on the fallacy that it's possible to frighten people into peace, or submission. This is not true, possible. Especially with religious people, being harped to five times a day.

Really? Why aren't Syria, Egypt and Jordan attacking Israel? Why does terrorism in Israel plummet when Arafat's life is credibly threatened? Why do Hamas members wear masks and hide from the IDF?

We frightened the Japanese and Germans into submission. It wasn't perfect, but damn better than 99% effective. But they knew without a doubt what we were capable of, and that we'd continue more of the same if need be. All people get tired of loss and suffering without the prospect of victory or gain. If you want to cite the wild-eyed fanatic that would charge an Abrahms with a machete, he'd have done so and been dispatched already. The guys in Fallujah aren't charging the encircling marines, and that is out of fear.

There are the peaceful among our foes. The more the jihadis are shown to be failures that only bring misery upon the whole, the more influence the peaceful will wield.

#74 RoP really chappin' my hide:

How can the five pillars of Islam persist when one of the pillars is a smoking crater??

That's going to be the first contradiction to face Islam? Not by a longshot. It would be a bold move, and would have benefits, but there's always an "and Allah called up, brought down, made it look like blah blah blah. So anyhow, this rock over here, that's the real holy site. For now."

111 Model4  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:55:45pm

#7 Cato the Elder: You know, you could tell him sorrowfully that it's awful he thinks so little of the people in the Muslim world that he isn't even willing to hear what they're saying. First, it's true. It's also kind of shocking to hear, especially from a lefty mindset, and it really throws them off balance. When he hems and haws that that's not the case, he's not going to be in a position to dismiss your quotes in future conversations.

#109 Q: Damn good point. I fear some of the suggestions I've heard that would lead to merely treating the symptoms, masking the disease. Islam will still be the same at its core, and still gain ground under those conditions, only to flare up worse than before.

112 RoP really chappin' my hide  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:56:01pm

110 Model4

I second that...good thread. There are contradictions and there are Contradictions.

For instance, to put it into concrete terms, if someone dug up Jesus' body, my faith would be worthless. Or, less strongly, if the Jews were ever eradicated and Jerusalem erased from the map, as my faith very definitely states that they will be redeemed in the end.

Those are capital "C" Contradictions. Much like if Mecca were Gone and Muslims humiliated.

113 RoP really chappin' my hide  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:56:35pm

Gotta go for now. Back later. Thanks for the chats.

114 grover  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:56:55pm

And to keep chiming in with all the things I've got going on in my head lately:

When I discuss the Iraq war with most people, and I can tell they think we screwed up and the Iraqis don't want us there, I ask them one simple question that occasionally has the effect of silencing their ignornace on the issue.

"Have you read even one post by any Iraqi blogger on the internet since the start of this war?"

The answer is almost invariably: "What's a blogger?" followed by a meek, "No."

They act so educated, yet they haven't done their homework. I have, frankly, as I was quite confused after 9/11. They haven't, it is merely for political gains they complain.

I have researched and made a choice. I choose freedom, liberty, life, and my country: America.

115 Eric Sivula  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 3:02:18pm

'Compounding this difficulty, the legitimacy of temporal power could always be challenged by those who, citing Muhammad’s spiritual role, claimed greater religious purity or authority; the fanatic in Islam is always at a moral advantage vis-à-vis the moderate.'

And that is the real problem in the Islamic world. When being a fanatic can help somebody become a leader more than being a moderate, why would anybody be moderate?

In a society where Fanaticism is rewarded, who would be Moderate?

116 Beagle al'Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 3:03:53pm

114, Grover -- it's great to say, isn't it? Freedom, what the modern Leftist takes for granted and generally opposes fighting for.

---

The author's final conclusion that Islam is brittle and weak might not be your final anlysis. Demographers may chuckle. The strength of the article is in getting to the conclusion. Along the way you will learn about a fractured Islam, a drug-addicted Islam, and a criminal Islam. It's balanced by a yearning, modernizing, and struggling Islam. Is it balanced? That's the most important question that nobody wants to talk about. Those that do risk all sorts of criticism from those that hold the "correct" view of Islam, often based on a lack of rudimentary knowledge. The author is not afraid to tackle the question, but is painstaking in answering it.

To what extent can we blend Western secularism into Islamic thought and vice versa?

There are examples of Islamic apostates that have died for the sin of trying to think as we might pitifully say in the West, "outside the box." Using America as an example. Within a five mile radius there are many churches, a synogogue, an Islamic Center (!) (no "intifada," Hate'm of Berkeley, CA -- YET *aieee*), and other miscellaneous houses of worship. In all of the many Judeo-Christian denominations there is a fairly clear message being sent in the form of a suggestion (something like that), "Don't steal, and that means you. Yes you, hiding behind the other guy."

Imagine a religion where robbery is an option specifically advocated by its putative leaders (Usama bin Laden) and in the most holy text? That is the case with the Qu'ran. What about the concept of parents forcing children to marry their cousins without any choice in the matter? Is that allowed? Are you for lowering the age of consent? How much?

Western values, freedom of religion, the mere concept of personal freedoms, gender equity, secular government, due process, national over tribal, turn the other cheek -- might not be universal (ed: wha?). The "nature of mankind" might be questioned as a concept.

The other avenue, nurture, suggests the the actions are directly the result of the belief system being forced on Muslim youth. How can someone see the difference and not question the impact they are having on young minds -- often literally -- especially through our Western prism? By West I suggest the most basic concepts -- secular values, consistent morality, equal justice -- not based on personal characteristics or religious group.

The right to move around, should that be based on your gender? Going to a school with more than one book.
None of the Western things we just assume might be your reality in Pakistani if you are born there.

How can you grant a freedom of no freedom of religion? That's one way to sum up what is really at stake for Western secularists everywhere. The multicultural: how can you be multicultural with the antithesis of the concept you treasure most as an ally?

It seems that no holy text is perfect. In saying that I've managed to insult virtually every religion on the face of the Earth.

The Qu'ran is seems has had more of an anti-intellectual, suicidal, criminal, fanatical, and murderous impact than other holy texts throuout it's history than most in reasonably modern history. Degree matters a lot when discussing not only crime, but the ultimate crime. All groups get around to it as some point. The Amish have recently made the news. Degree. Degree.

The mild sermons one might hear in the CoE may not get your blood boiling. Perhaps that is a good thing.

117 levi from queens  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 3:09:07pm

To Mr. Pol--- here in Queens where all the people of the world live together in small strife and substantial accomplishment -- yes-- In America-- we do all still b ecome Americans.

118 abc  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 3:09:56pm

110

We frightened the Japanese...into submission. ... But they knew without a doubt what we were capable of, and that we'd continue more of the same if need be. All people get tired of loss and suffering without the prospect of victory or gain..


When you say we 'frightened' them and then in the next breath say 'they knew...what we were capable of...'; I say this is two things, two different things.

And maybe it's a fine distinction, or I could be wrong, but I think it was the second thing that ended the war, not the first.

For heaven's sake, we practically obliterated Japan with fire and airstrikes, and they didn't give up until they realized they simply would lose everything. It was this 'addition', this 'calculation' that ended it.
Not fear.

I'm just trying to make my point, exactly clear.
We can disagree on this.

119 Model4  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 3:10:50pm

#112 RoP really chappin' my hide: Well if it's a "Contradiction," let's roll!

120 Model4  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 3:33:22pm

#118 abc: They couldn't be frightened if they didn't know what we were capable of. If they knew what we were capable of and weren't frightened, they wouldn't have surrenedered. There may be other ways to look at this, but in my current view they go hand in hand.

Still, what makes you think that leaders in the Islamic world are incapable of being motivated to yield to our will by fear and self-interest? Especially since there are all kinds of examples supporting this conclusion. We simply haven't engaged on sufficient scale with sufficient resolve to date.

121 ralph  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 3:35:18pm

#107 mr. pol

What's the difference between Europe and the U.S. ? 10 years? Less than that?


I believe that the tide is turning against the EU/LLL mindset in America. I think with gay "marriage" the LLL overplayed their cards. With 911 and the moslems with their propensity to exagerate, most Americans, including our bretheren to the south(ie mexico, etc) and east(hindu,chinese)don't buy their tribal this "tribal" bs.
Our recent immigrants see that the "cultures" that they have left are inferior.

122 ralph  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 3:44:28pm

#107 mr. pol
I extend my post in #121 with this quote:

Hassan:" We can live in peace. There is a law in America: nobody can take your life. That's what makes me believe in peace. I want my children to have a good education up to college level and me too. I want to live like the people who live in America-only better. I want to work.

Hassan Somali refugee Phoenix AZ. Smithonian Magazine page 60 January 2004.

123 abc  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 4:03:40pm

120

I'm just saying fear has nothing to do with ending a war.

If what you're saying is true. Then hypothetically, one day General Lee woke up in his tent and said to himself, OK, I'm afraid now, I better surrender. And then sent a note over to General Grant.

This is absurd. There was an entirely different process that General Lee used to make his decision to surrender.


And I think this is really an important point to consider.

Because if you are correct. If it is really all just a question of fear. Then terrorism works. Because this is a way to produce fear.

But I'm saying fear has nothing to do with winning a war. Absolutely nothing.

And therefore, terrorism is a futile, and a senseless waste that won't win anyone anything.

War ends, when one side knows it cannot succeed, period.

124 ploome  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 4:18:52pm

122 ralph

ever heard of the "hierarchy of needs"?

do you know any grateful muslims?

125 ralph  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 4:25:14pm

#124 ploome

do you know any grateful muslims?


#122 answers your question.

126 RIP Ford Ali Abu Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 4:27:52pm

#124 ploome

ever heard of the "hierarchy of needs"?

No, seriously.

do you know any grateful muslims?

Yes, I do.
Not many mind you, but they are there. And, ultimately responsible for not taking a stand against their religion.

/hoping not to get flamed.

127 Promethea  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:57:14pm

#37 Mark . . .

I expected more from the mass of Iraqis. I expected demonstrations expressing support of us -- tens or hundreds of thousands of Iraqis standing up to say they want democracy. We are not seeing that.

Hope you're still there. Mark Steyn has a good column today in the Chicago Sun-Times about how the Iraqis are waiting to see which way the wind blows before they commit themselves. They just want to stay alive. This makes sense. They've been brutalized for a thousand years.

Also, even though some Iraqis are familiar with democracy, most are from the countryside where the village strongman rules. Some of the Iraqi bloggers have discussed the various differences among Iraqis, such as city v. peasant.

Anyway, my point is that Iraqi society needs a lot of time before democracy is the norm. Meanwhile, a free market society has to be established, as well as democractic institutions. Think of Iraq as a country that has been Stalinized. Now it needs to be transformed. That will take time.

128 Promethea  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:15:05pm

#43 Billy Hank . . .

My process after 9/11 was to start learning more about Islam than funny shoes and hats with tassels. Someone pointed me to Daniel Pipes, someone else to LGF. DenBeste's analysis of why war with Afghanistan was not going to be Vietnam made a big impression. He articulated the global sweep of our current effort in chapter and verse 30 months ago.

What you said here is so important. The process of learning about Islam can only take time, reading, and reiteration. When I first started reading LGF, I hadn't read about Islam except in the most general way, and reacted negatively to many of the comments--thinking they were way over the top. Now that I've read a lot more, including Pipes, LGF, Den Beste, etc. the problems of Islam are much clearer.

Eventually the LLLs will get up to speed, or they'll just die out--like the Free Silver people did.

129 Promethea  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:19:55pm

#43 Billy Hank . . .

From my own background, I would suggest a more vigorous PR campaign internally within the US to expose the scope. There are problems with this approach. The RoP line is politically necessary to avoid forcing other Islamic countries to put their oar in the water. The LLL media will counterattack with as much venom and logic now coming from the 9/11 panel. Just investigating and reporting the stories that surface in LGF and other blogs would be a big help. People are getting better at stripping the media bias out of a story to get a closer approximation of the facts.

Too bad George Soros is such a schmuck. Someone with his kind of money would be great funding a PR campaign, getting the word out about Islam. I hope there is some millionaire or billionaire out there who "gets it" and yet doesn't come across as an evil nutcase. Subtlety is called for.

130 Promethea  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:27:23pm

#69 twisterella . . .

Islam is analogous to a computer virus, and the Qur'an is the code. It spreads like any virus, by acquiring reps. Sure, it means your death, and mine, and it doesn't care if you're a christian or a jew or a druid, you're other.

I also like the analogy of Islam is like the Borg.

131 Alice  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:27:23pm

So, what's new?


Anyone out there who still hasn't visited Faith Freedom yet? It's all there.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

132 JohninLondon  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 11:52:37pm

OT

To draw attention to the INTERNAL threat in the US, there needs to be much more focus on the law suit that CAIR has brought against the guy who runs the anti-CAIR website :


[Link: www.danielpipes.org...]

CAIR is the day-in-day-out voice of Islam in the US, feeding its stuff to the media as well as the masses. Anything that discredits CAIR weakens militant Islam. If they lost the case they have brought - or if they are forced to withdraw it - this would help smudge their claim to have clean hands.

133 Cato the Elder  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 7:28:28am

To all who took the trouble to answer my question about how to deal with LLL friends and relatives: Thank you. I wish I could respond to each of you in person, but duty calls. Your thoughts and suggestions, though, were all very much appreciated.

134 veebee  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 4:24:36pm

Twisterella

I am not fond of the virus analogy at all. Any attempt to make an argument drawing a correlation between biology and culture makes me very uneasy. Some very unwholesome rhetoric came about as a cross between biology and social science.

Islam is an idea, and we have to fight it the same way we fought other ideas (communism, fascism) not the way we fight viruses (immunization).

135 veebee  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 4:45:48pm

By the time I was done with the comments I forgot what I had to say.

But Islam has no improving or inhibiting effect upon the behavior of my city’s young Muslim men, who, in astonishing numbers, have taken to heroin, a habit almost unknown among their Sikh and Hindu contemporaries. The young Muslims not only take heroin but deal in it, and have adopted all the criminality attendant on the trade.


Something tells me that the rates of drug addiction in some home countries, such as Pakistan and Afghanistan are fairly high, considering that the drug is abundant and misery is commonplace.

136 the other Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 15, 2004 2:01:32pm
As for Muslim proselytism in the prison--and Muslim literature has been insinuated into nooks and crannies there far more thoroughly than any Christian literature--it is directed mainly at the Jamaican prisoners. It answers their need for an excuse to go straight, while not at the same time surrendering to the morality of a society they believe has wronged them deeply. Indeed, conversion to Islam is their revenge upon that society, for they sense that their newfound religion is fundamentally opposed to it. By conversion, therefore, they kill two birds with one stone.

Hmmm. I always wondered why so many Americans of African descent, especially those in jail, found Islam attractive. It always seems odd to me, since slavery is specifically condoned by Islam as being from Allah. To tweak the nose of a “society they believe has wronged them deeply” is a very reasonable hypothesis.

Islam also specifically authorizes (indeed, demands!) violence against Infidels. I'm sure the proselytisers of Islam find this an attractive way to channel the violent tendencies of the criminally inclined.


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