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Identifying Moderate Muslims

Tue, Nov 23, 2004 at 8:09:02 pm PST

A good piece by Daniel Pipes on Identifying Moderate Muslims:

With time, individual Muslims are finding their voice to condemn Islamist connections to terrorism. Perhaps most outstanding is an article by Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, a Saudi journalist in London: “It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists,” he writes, “but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims. ... We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women.”

Other analysts have followed al-Rashed’s example. Osama El-Ghazali Harb writes from Egypt that “Muslim and Arab intellectuals and opinion leaders must confront and oppose any attempt to excuse the barbaric acts of these [terrorist] groups on the grounds of the suffering endured by Muslims.” From Virginia, Anouar Boukhar holds that “Terrorism is a Muslim problem, and refusal to admit so is indeed troubling.”

The bad news: There are lots of fake-moderates parading about, and they can be difficult to identify, even for someone like me who devotes much attention to this topic. The Council on American-Islamic Relations still wins mainstream support and the Islamic Society of North America still sometimes hoodwinks the U.S. government. The brand-new Progressive Muslim Union wins rave reviews for its alleged moderation from gullible journalists, despite much of its leadership (Salam Al-Marayati, Sarah Eltantawi, Hussein Ibish, Ali Abunimah) being well-known extremists.

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424 comments

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1 frozen tundra  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:11:49pm

Thanks Charles

2 LSD  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:13:30pm
3 Dar ul Harb  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:14:46pm

OT,

Woohoo! Thanks to whoever just gave that $100 to the Spirit Of America fundraiser!

$7063!

4 LSD  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:18:24pm

Sorry for the link post, didn't see Charles was all over it.


/embarrassment

5 Kafirus Maximus  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:18:56pm

Muslims being terror involved? Oh shit tell me about santaclaus next. Besides everyone knows there is no Moon demon rock idol death cult worthy of praise save Allah's. Jeasus christ give me a break.

6 Kafirus Maximus  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:21:10pm

Santa Clause (I think sowwy anyways)

7 mich-again  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:27:03pm

Sounds like a reasonable guy. I Hope he wins some minds over. Our best hope for peace is that the moderate Muslims get fed up with the murderous radicals and puke them out like bad mayonaisse.

8 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:29:44pm

I knew it...a Muslim with some integrity. I hope he spreads it around.

9 republicanista  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:32:58pm

That Osama Harb points out that terrorism is bad on the grounds that it hurts muslims. That's not moderate in my opinion.

When a muslim stands up and says he's ashamed of his religion's history and terrorism is bad because it kills innocent human beings, jews and others included, then I will accept islam as a real religion.

Until then it's a death cult that doesn't even deserve capital letters.

10 gunslingah  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:34:46pm

This is my first post to this or any blog. I work on a terrorism task force with the federal gov't (enough said). I've spent a great amount of time in the Middle East and other spots where terrorism is a bit of a problem (Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel and the West Bank, Kenya, Algeria, etc.) That's where I come from.

I try to be tolerant. I really do. I don't want to think that Islam is really a religion of war and terrorism. I don't want to think that the majority of Muslims are incipient terrorists. But, having seen the things I've seen, I have to conclude that, unfortunately, today's "moderate Muslim" could easily be tomorrow's suicide bomber.

I would desperately like someone to provide me with some firm evidence that would dissuade me of that bleak view.

11 republicanista  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:36:20pm

Oops. On second reading, it looks like Osama Harb was saying that muslim suffering isn't an excuse for terror.

Still, it would be nice to hear one say the other thing. About Jews being innocent victims.

12 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:39:48pm

I commend any moderate Muslim who speaks out, without excuses or disclaimers, against the violence of Muslims and acknowledges that "terrorism is a Muslim problem."

I've seen more of these voices in recent days. Let more of them speak up!

But for those Muslims who prevaricate, duck and dodge, present obscure "intellectual" arguments which ultimately absolve Muslim terrorists of guilt, who attempt to mollify the very people whose suffering and defeat they would applaud, however secretly, ...for those Muslims, let them pay the same penalty as their more active terrorist brothers.

The worldwide movement for Islamic Jihad will ultimately not end in fine distinctions between philosophical positions and subtle argumentation. That's because, when the bullets start flying, you can't tell a moderate Muslim from an Islamofreakizoid.

A few moderate Muslims are making a good, and brave step, to speak out now. But they MUST go further. They must band together and FIGHT, by demonstrations, even by arms where appropriate, by publications, by gatherings, by preaching, by every means possible, against the violent strains of Islam.

Otherwise, ultimately, they will be lost in the battle, true victims of the worst elements of their own religion in conflict with those who must defend themselves against it.

Moderate Muslims, STAND UP!!! NOW!!! TOGETHER!!!

13 hornet  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:41:04pm

Islam is submission by all means necessary. Muslims submit to islam. There is no such thing as moderate islam.There is no such thing as a moderate muslim.

Pipes article makes this as clear as mud.

14 Corpsman Mom  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:41:17pm

#11 Republicanista

What he said (paraphrasing) is the only reason to condemn these terrorist groups is because of the suffering they cause muslims. No mention of jews, twin towers employees and the like.........

15 Sojourner  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:42:04pm
Islamists note the urge to find moderate Muslims and are learning how to fake moderation. Over time, their camouflage will undoubtedly further improve.

Disturbing

The task of identifying true moderates cannot be done through guesswork and intuition; for proof, note the American government's persistent record of supporting Islamists by providing them with legitimacy, education, and (perhaps even) money. I too have made my share of mistakes. What's needed is serious, sustained research.

Disturbing

an article by Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, a Saudi journalist in London: "It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists," he writes, "but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims. … We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women."

I'm thankful to hear that.

God bless Daniel Pipes and Abdel Rahman a-Rashed.

And more, God bless this earth and purge the evil which emanates from Islam.

I don't see how Islam can really reform.

I appreciate what Mr. Pipes wrote, but, I'm not encouraged much. :(

16 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:43:19pm

republicanista


When a muslim stands up and says he's ashamed of his religion's history and terrorism is bad because it kills innocent human beings, jews and others included, then I will accept islam as a real religion.


Name a religion that did not produce fanatics who believed thiers was the one and only true religion. Even Christianity has its failings ie. Jimmy Falwell and the Jim Jones kool-aid crusade.

17 Sojourner  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:43:52pm

9 Republicanista

Amen to that.

18 stuck in california  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:46:03pm

gullible journalist???? whod a thunk it?

19 AtlasShrugged  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:47:22pm

#10 gunslingah

I love Daniel Pipes, a voice of reason and clarity, but I gotta tell you GUNSLINGAH makes alot of sense and the intelligence he has gleaned is not conjecture. The man (or woman) has seen it up close and personal.

20 dustyroadguy  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:51:57pm

How long before a fatwad (I know it's spelled wrong) is issued by some muslime mulard.........

“It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists,” he writes, “but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims. ... We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women.”

this bolded statement will be considered an 'insult to Islam'......

he is a deadman.........

21 hornet  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:52:52pm

#16 Mars trucker...Who is Jimmy Falwell. Jim Jones was not a Christian. Christianity and Judaism love life, islam is a death cult. What, the Baptists and Roman Catholics took down the World Trade Centre towers??

22 Intestinal Fortitude  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:54:35pm

An interesting point on CAIR (even though they don't deserve the CapsLock.)

As seen in earlier threads, CAIR came up on a few occasions here (PBUC); towards FOX, limiting the Eurasia piece this evening.

This is troubling because even though they can be biased (O'Reilly), this should not be happening, if in fact it is true.

It seems too fishy.

23 zulubaby  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:54:54pm

It's like looking for a needle in a haystack. I just cannot get too excited over a lone, somewhat sane voice. It's simply not enough. To me, Islam is poison, it's a death cult. There are always going to be the few who differ from the rest and yes, they deserve to be applauded and supported, but what does it amount to really? As a Jew, it's especially hard to believe in the moderate Muslim. I respect Pipes tremendously but I don't always agree with him. I suppose I should trust him a bit more but I remain cynical.

24 vickie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:55:18pm

Just a question or two or three? When will these Islamists be DEFINED as MODERATE? Whats the criteria for that? When they stop attacks on America? Make nice with Americans and the general West? What happens if they do that...and are still the the same ole Jew Haters that are determined to destroy Jews and Israel?

Who is in charge of Definitions anyway? I SAY...they are NOT Moderates ...none of them...if they make up with the West and still want to kill ME and MINE. Sorry.

Im waitin for the newest Pal leader to be labeled as a "Moderate". I waitin for Israel to HAVE TO choose between the Candidates they are handed ..that are foisted on them. Im waiting for Israel to be TOLD that they had better "talk up" the new Pal Leader as a so called Moderate....

Why are we backing a Palistinian State ANYWAY after 40 years of promising that the US wouldnt do such a thing? Huge percentage of ELECTED Reps of the US did NOT approve of a Pal State. Nevertheless...a Second Pal State is being formed with the backing of the US. How DID that happen?

25 zulubaby  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:55:24pm

gunslingah, tell us more.

26 republicanista  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:55:35pm

Mars trucker #16

Of course all religions have done bad things. Religions are full of human beings.

I've heard plenty of Christians apologize about their own history, but I've yet to hear a muslim even admit that shooting at preschoolers might be wrong - under any circumstances.

Name another religion that shoots at little kids (Beslan) often. Even promoting it from the pulpit and I'll call that one a death cult too.

27 gunslingah  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:56:04pm

Let me make it clear, I don't hate Muslims. I actually have Muslim friends. I like them and trust them (sometimes with my life). I just really hope I'm not wrong about them. And I'm not sure if I can ever really be sure.

Sorry for the pessimism. It's just kind of a strange time.

28 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:56:17pm

#10 gunslingah: Please stay around. We need more people like you here.

I would desperately like someone to provide me with some firm evidence that would dissuade me of that bleak view.

I don't think you're going to find much dissuasion on Little Green Footballs. Quite the opposite -- and endless stream of evidence that Islam is itself the problem.

29 mich-again  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:57:29pm

10 Gunslingah,

Welcome. The blogosphere rocks. It is possible now that your TV remote might be lost for days before you even notice.

30 jhs  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:57:37pm

OT

Ukraine in crisis as opposition leader declares himself president
[Link: sg.news.yahoo.com...]

31 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:58:01pm
32 dustyroadguy  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:58:43pm

16 Mars Tucker

Even Christianity has its failings ie. Jimmy Falwell and the Jim Jones kool-aid crusade.

I think you might mean jimmy and tami baker.....

there is NO Jimmy Falwell

and the above individuals were resoundingly crushed and condemed by the larger CHRISTIAN Community and baker went to jail.....

jim jones went to hell.....

33 hornet  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 6:59:01pm

Judge islam/muslims by WHAT THEY DO, NOT/NOT by what they say.

34 HUSKER  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:00:32pm

Identifying moderate Muslims?

Is that sort of like identifying fat-burning double-cheeseburgers?

35 RebTex  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:01:01pm

Gunslinger
You'd better keep a peice in your sock!!!!
It would be a real shame to read about you in the paper...know what I mean?
Indoctrination from birth will ALWAYS overpower any "loyalty" they might show.
WATCH YOUR SIX!!!

36 Sojourner  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:01:22pm

10 gunslingah

I would desperately like someone to provide me with some firm evidence that would dissuade me of that bleak view.

I thank you for your service, military or not, it's still service to me.

And I agree. I work with a ton of muslims. The ones who speak out when asked are against "American policies"... I can't say too much, but they certainly know where I stand.

Crap, I'm surrounded by muslims and American democrats.

I'm still not persuaded, I don't think Islam can be much reformed.

To be more clear on my beliefs: I know that Iraqi's and Afghani's have seen some of the justice and love, and might, of America, and they are affected, and have love for us.

But there is still the cult of Islam. Which will win?

I believe that eventually "grassroots" efforts will turn into a fire around the world, but I fear it will be uglier than what we have seen yet. But because of my Biblical faith, I believe that good will eventually win over evil.

That is my layperson/uneducated opinion.

Others more qualified should answer here. (I'd like to see their answers, if I can find the time :)

I really just wanted to say "Welcome gunslingah" and I appreciate your post.

37 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:01:31pm
38 OilStooge  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:02:33pm

One of the major problems in identifying moderate Muslims is the deafening silence that pervades the Middle East and their communities in the West. Mark Steyn once explained this to be the result of a fatalism that puts even the Russians to shame.

Something that really disturbs me are those who are identified as "moderates" in our media and talk the moderate talk in op-eds and letters to the editor, but who in their own communities revert to outrageous slander of Israel and jihad talk.

A perfect example of this is a character named Elmasry in Canada whose submissions I read the National Post taking the paper to task for intemperate remarks about Islam, the need for common understanding, etc. He of course stated elsewhere that any Jew over the age of 18 is a 'legitimate target' and was forced to apologize.

This sort of 'fake moderation' makes dialogue almost impossible as we never know who is serious and who is not when it comes to denouncing terrorism.

39 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:03:00pm

Yes, ultimately it's going to come down to a shooting fight between international Islamic jihad and the Western world.

Right now, it's mainly between the US/Israel/UK and a few other brave nations and all of the Islamofascist forces on the planet.

Even the US is divided between those who see the threat, and those who don't.

It's going to take a CATASTROPHE to get it through the multiculturalists' thick sculls. I hate to see that happen. But that's what it's going to take.

Islam will not disappoint us. One of these fine days, a nuke is going to go off in a major Western city. Then all HELL is going to break loose.

The Michael Moores and Chiracs of the world will be screaming, "Why didn't you (our government agencies) protect us???!!! SAVE US!!! SAVE US!!! NOW!!!! FIGHT!!! KILL!!! KILL!!! KILL!!!"

Mark my words. History is the template.

It's a sad scenario, but apparently one which must be played out.

May God have mercy on our children and loved ones. It ain't gonna be pretty.

How soon? Who can say? 2 years? 5? 10? 20?

I just hope Bush has success in his optimistic bid to democratize Iraq and other Islamic nations. I don't expect success. But I'll allow that maybe he has some wisdom I have yet to learn.

We'll see.

40 mickthemick  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:04:42pm

#10 gunslingah

I would desperately like someone to provide me with some firm evidence that would dissuade me of that bleak view.

Sounds like you could teach us quite a bit with your background! Welcome to blogs, and to LGF! WARNING! Blogging is addictive! ;)

I think the problem, gunslingah, is that too many Muslims are afraid to speak out against the Islamists. There are a variety of reasons. Obviously, it can get you killed, even in the West. There's also the stigma of being labeled an "Uncle Tom," or "White," etc. I think it's important for people in your position to reach out and open up to Muslims. You're in a position to dispell certain negative myths about America that fester in those places you mentioned because you interact with Muslims who actually live in Islamic societies.

41 Beagle  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:04:50pm

#10 gunslingah

I would desperately like someone to provide me with some firm evidence that would dissuade me of that bleak view.

I know exactly what you mean. But there are too many examples of so-called moderates suddenly getting the urge to jihad. A week later they are in Iraq, Beslan, Kabul, Bali, New York, or Amsterdam with explosives, a ski mask, an AK-47, and a hunting knife.

Islam needs new leadership, an end to Wahhabi influence, and some creative interpretation of the passages which seem to call for violence. So long as the Koran exists in its present form, the blueprint for violence will remain. It's hard to be optimistic if you read Mohammed next to Hebrew scripture or the New Testament. The Koran, even the online versions available on .edu websites, is Religious War for Dummies.

42 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:04:56pm
#16 MARS Trucker
Name a religion that did not produce fanatics who believed thiers was the one and only true religion. Even Christianity has its failings ie. Jimmy Falwell and the Jim Jones kool-aid crusade.

MARS T, I could name a hundred religions who believed such. In fact, ONLY the three main monotheistic religions -- Judaism, Christianity and Islam -- have ever made exclusivity a fundamental aspect of their belief. Just about every other religion is more easygoing, dogmatically. So you're off the mark there.

You also off the mark in two other ways. While Christianity does have a checkered history, there is practically no organized violence in the world today committed my Christians as a religious mandate. Yes, it happened in the Middle Ages, up through the Thirty Years War and beyond, but those times are pretty much over.

Lastly, Islam is not actually a religion. It's a philosophy (for lack of a better word). I prefer to call it a lifestyle, to be honest. It's all-encompassing in a way that other religions aren't.

43 Sojourner  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:05:58pm

24 Vickie

When will these Islamists be DEFINED as MODERATE? Whats the criteria for that?

GOOD QUESTION!!

44 vickie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:07:18pm

OT: I want to comment here. You may not know that Tami Baker is very sick. She has Cancer and is on Chemo right now.

This woman is a true innocent. Shes a sweet woman who believes in G-d with all her heart and soul and knew nothin about nothin concerning the finanaces of PTL. She was Praying, Singing, and Shopping...thats all she knew.

I used to watch PTL when nothin else was on. Never did I hear one single antisememtic word coming out of EITHER of them. They did THEIR THING..she especially with a whole believing dear heart.

Yeah...shes funny looking...shes campy but she is a good person...with a sweet soul.

45 RebTex  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:07:38pm

Let's not forget the "translators" for the CIA/FBI.
There was a report on them dragging a$$ & letting the stream of info stack up.
It was reported they did this to slow the response to their "translations"....to aide their people here & abroad.

46 Jakester  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:08:09pm

The ones that don't get up after the shell burst!

47 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:08:20pm

Gunslingah

I think that's what we all want. Some assurance but, I don't think any of us expect it. In fact, I don't believe it. Moderate Muslim is an oxymoron IMHO. I don't mean to offend anyone but, that's the way I see it.

48 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:12:02pm

Mars Trucker

Unfortunately what you say about extremists in Christianity is true. However, I don't believe it applies in this case. Extremists in Christianity are exactly that. They take things out of context and go berserk. However, terrorists take this religion at face value. Even thought my beloved president calls it a religion of peace, it is not. It calls for death and destruction. That is the norm, not the exception.

49 rw in san diego  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:12:45pm

gunslingah

Dennis Prager, a talk show host, many, many, moons ago said that the time had come for Islam to claim its' place among the worlds major religions. It would have to start by actively disavowing all extemists. This, I believe, they have not even begun, nor have thet shown any inclination along the lines that they even want to. I am getting pretty fed up and very discouraged. The moderatevoices on television, e.g., Ibrahim Cooper, and I forget the prissy, heavy set fellows name, leave me wanting throw a lamp through the tv set. No more PC on my part. They better show me they mean well because right now I think that I'm safer not trusting any of them. And that's a shame.

50 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:16:49pm

#26 republicanista


How about Catholicism and their agenda during the 15th&16th centuries in the "New World"? They wiped out whole peoples in the Americas. I am sure children were not spared the forced re-education and woman and girls were not spared from rape and torture by the Conquestadores.
This is not an excuse for the Muslim and their somewhat misguided (controlled) beliefs. We are at a point in history where we either accept our defeat as a civilization or we clean up human nature; man's inhumanity towards man. It starts today, with what we do or say. How we lead by example to our children and our community.

I used to be one of those individuals who would judge people by what I hear about them. I grew up and out of that stage. Everyone deserves a chance if they are willing to contribute to the growth of our communites. This blog (thanks to Charles and everyone else who contributes) makes the world a smaller place and we don't have time for petty b.s. We all can agree to disagree and we all can fix the world if we act together.

I may be too much of an optimist for my own good sometimes but I am begining to follow my mother-in-laws example and focus on the good in this world. There is a lot of good here if we just let it in.

And for you hard core LGFers, I am not a wuss, I am Bush supporter and very conservative. Don't mean to go off, just getting things clear.

51 gunslingah  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:17:43pm

Thanks all for your welcoming comments. Too many to list specifically, but:

#36 Sojourner: as to whether my service has been military or otherwise--both. I've been serving my kind Uncle Sam in one form or another since I was 17 years old (I won't tell you how long that has been!)

#40 Mick the Mick: "Uncle Tom"? Been called that. And other things by so-called "progressive, tolerant liberals." Amazing how intolerant they become when a "person of color" wanders off their Democratic plantation. ("Sorry, massah! I be good from now on!"--slight hint as to my ethnicity).

#29 Mich-Again: As to losing my remote-- already happened... the first time I logged into LGF (during the Rathergate episode a couple of months ago) and witnessed Charles single-handedly bring down a MSM superstar (the delayed reaction of which we are seeing today). This is just the first time I have had the balls (pardon the vulgarity) to actually post a comment.

God bless all. And thanks for the endless entertainment, enlightenment and agreement during some pretty rough times.

52 vickie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:19:07pm

At some point..Islam is going to realize that they have to train SOME of their Hi Profile people to PLAY ACT Moderation to get closer to where they want to be. Id do that..if I were in their place..If I would ...they will.

Been expecting that and "Civil Disobediance" MLK style. It will ALL be an Act. They WILL go back to their own Communities and let loose with their hatredS out of hearing and out of sight.

Tricking the Enemy ..is a tride and true TACTIC of Islam for Millenia.

Just cause the West has Moderates in Actable Numbers...doesnt mean Islam does. Islam isnt Judiasm, Chistianity and the West. It is a whole different set of Values..and Ethics..and Lifestyles at the street level. G-d DAMN....time someone teaches the West that.

53 Norwegian kafir  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:19:18pm

#10 gunslingah:

I'm sorry, but your gut feeling is correct. Islam itself is the problem. It probably cannot be reformed, and its breakdown is likely to trigger a world war. Try reading the book "Leaving Islam - Apostates Speak Out" edited by Ibn Warraq , "Jihad in the West" by Paul Fregosi or "Among the Believers" by V. S. Naipaul . I would recommend that you in addition to reading Jihad Watch and LGF also pay a visit to websites by ex-Muslims. Some of the best ones are:

[Link: www.secularislam.org...]

[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

[Link: www.knowislam.info...]

[Link: www.islamreview.org...]

[Link: www.middleastwomen.org...]

[Link: www.apostatesofislam.com...]

54 Aquatic Cadaver Dog  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:22:00pm

Moderate muslim--oxymoron

Maybe the most we can hope for are secular muslims.....

MINOs

55 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:22:51pm

#42 zombie


Thank you, points taken

56 gunslingah  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:24:08pm

#39 rtheyserius:

"Yes, ultimately it's going to come down to a shooting fight between international Islamic jihad and the Western world."

It already has! Most people just don't realize it yet!

57 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:24:26pm
#42 Zombie -- In fact, ONLY the three main monotheistic religions -- Judaism, Christianity and Islam -- have ever made exclusivity a fundamental aspect of their belief.

Quite right. Joseph Campbell refers to the three as the "Levantine" religions, all of whom share a common cosmology, mythology and concept of a single, transcendent God.

The other world religions, Taoism, Hinduism, and Buddhism, together with the many 'nature' religions which Christians call 'pagan', have an entirely more pacific history (with a few exceptions).

If anyone's interested in an excellent education on how these different religions relate, Campbell's four volume set, "The Masks of God," is good beginning.

Campbell, BTW, is none too complimentary toward Islam.

58 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:25:05pm

#10 Gunslinga

Welcome to LGF!

Sorry to say that to me the words 'moderate muslim' are an oxymoron.

After what Israel has endured, and after what 9/11 did here, after the Madrid subway bombing, which accomplished their objective in putting a toady in as PM, and after the massacre of schoolchildren in Beslan (Chechnya)....and looking at Eurabia, who is ready to say that they can be moderates? They have been brainwashed by their cult for centuries, and are quick to kill their own, and turning their kids into homicide bombers? Parents will protect their children at the cost of their own lives...they do not kvell over little muhammed or little aisha blowing themselves up, in one of the few examples of equal opportunity for females. I can not ever forget the faces of their victims, and their obscene celebrations after 9/11, and the requisite block parties, sweetmeats for all, rifles shooting into the air, and ululations heard all over. Celebrating massacres? This is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Friends that have studied the quran find it to be a bloody instruction book on hate and killing as a part of their cult...I do not intend to read it.

Now it has become us or them, and I vote for us every time. One can only imagine how traumatized our brave troops are by the horrors they have unearthed in Iraq, and the glut of televised beheadings? No, they are not moderates, and any that dare become even slighly enlightened face a fatwa...

Sorry to be so negative, but IMHO, far too many of us are not scared enough of this threat unlike any other we have known. Their goal is to either convert us all, or kill us, Christian and Jew alike.

I admire Dr. Pipes, but in this case, I feel he is way off base.

59 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:25:43pm

#56 gunslingah,

True. But nothing compared to the fight that's brewing.

60 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:25:49pm

#50 MARS Trucker

I know you are one of the good guys and a good Lizard but, I strongly disagree with you on this one. If I understand you premise, crazy killing Islamic are no different than crazy killing Christians, both are extremists.
I believe, as I mentioned above, this is incorrect. I believe by definition Islam is a bloody hateful religion that thrives on the blood of all who disagree. This is not a minor point. Hate and killing is the norm for this religion.

61 Norwegian kafir  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:25:50pm

#42: No, as Ali Sina keeps saying, Islam is not a religion. Islam is an Arab Nazi movement disguised as a religion. Many of the "Moderate Muslims" are just using taqiyya and kitman - deceptive Jihad, to confuse the enemy: Us.

62 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:28:54pm

Believe it or not, I'm going to take a page from the dreaded Edward Said here -- and turn his argument against Islam:

Said's thesis of "Orientalism" proposes that the "West" has fetishized the "East" (and he absurdly lumps the Middle East in with the Far East -- but that's another story). The West ascribed all sorts of patronizing foreign conceptual structures on the East. Out of this results colonialism, exploitation, etc. This was Said's view.

And even though he was wrong on many levels, on one point he was very right: The West came in and defined Islam as a "religion," when in fact it never was one before we came along and applied our condesceding label on something we couldn't grasp.

The very notion of there being "religions" is a Western one. Islam does not see things that way. To an observant Muslim, there is Islam as the one true mode of existence -- and everything else is blasphemous evil garbage. In Islamic belief, there is no competition between Islam and rival religions -- because everything non-Islamic is on a lower plane, to be dismissed and destroyed. Islam, in its own definition of itself, is vastly more than just a religion. It is life itself -- law, goevernment, personal behavior, military strategy, rules for intimacy, how each person on earth must spend every minute of every day, and on and on. Islam sees itself not merely as a manner of living -- it sees itself as the only possible manner of living. The other so-called "religions" are seen as threats that must be extirpated.

This "Orientalist" mis-definition of Islam as a religion -- as we Westerners understand religion -- is the root of the problem. Once we shake loose this label, and all the PC protection that comes along with it, we will finally be prepared to rid the world of Islam once and for all.

63 republicanista  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:29:39pm

#50 Mars Trucker

Yeah. Conquistadors were bad, they brought down the Aztec and Incan empires. That version of Christianity (kill non-Christians) died in the 1800's, however.

And to their credit, I'm not aware of any American Indians that strapped bombs on and went after school kids.

This is 2004. Islam can not be allowed to continue in our modern world with our modern weapons.

To call islam misguided and controlled is as shortsighted as you accuse me of being. How is islam any different than the nazis (besides being less efficient)?

64 Promethea  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:33:50pm

#29 mich-again . . .

Welcome. The blogosphere rocks. It is possible now that your TV remote might be lost for days before you even notice.

That's me you're talking about. I pay for cable, but never turn the TV on. The blogosphere is SO much better.

Plus, you can talk to it. Unlike the TV.

65 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:33:51pm

#62 Zombie

That is the most concise, coherent description of Islam I have ever read. I (with your permission) am going to use that as a quote for my next class (with citation, of course).

66 gunslingah  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:34:02pm

#49 rw in san diego: Amen, Brother! I'm just tired of excuses and claims that "I'M the victim here!" Ibrahim Cooper particularly disgusts me with his abject refusal to acknowledge that the acts of radical Muslims have had any impact upon the gov't's current security protocols.

On a related note, I recently sent an e-mail to the ACLU blasting them for their misleading, fear-mongering, FALSE TV ads against the Patriot Act. Astonishingly, they never responded. Maybe they never got my e-mail. Or, maybe, they're only accustomed to getting ass-sucking (sorry again for the vulgarity, but these moonbats just get to me somehow), sycophantic feedback, and just don't know how to respond when someone actually challenges them.

67 Aquatic Cadaver Dog  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:35:15pm

#51 gunslingah

My name is acdog and I'm an LGFaholic.

Before Rathergate I barely knew what a blog was. Then wonderful Al Rantel on KABC radio mentioned the expose of the Rather bogus docs on Little Green Footballs web site. What are Little Green Footballs? I asked myself. I quickly found out and I've been hooked ever since.

Al Rantel, I know you're out there and I want to say thanks a million!

And to all you lovely people.....thanks for sharing your humor, warmth and genius with me. Special thanks to Zaideh, Zombie and Zulubaby.

68 DumbBlondeCapitalist  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:36:45pm

As Zulubaby said, it is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

IMO, part of the problem is that moderate Muslims don't hang out together in groups, so they aren't identifiable as a group. All of the moderates (3) I know don't segregate themselves and really immerse themselves in American culture.

But that's just my experience. My moderate Muslim hangs out with good ol' Southern boys, knocked on doors to GOTV for Bush and just recently used the words "critter" and "fixin' to". The day he uses "y'all", I'll know he's fully assimilated.

To an American Soldier

69 Promethea  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:38:11pm

#62 zombie . . .

This "Orientalist" mis-definition of Islam as a religion -- as we Westerners understand religion -- is the root of the problem. Once we shake loose this label, and all the PC protection that comes along with it, we will finally be prepared to rid the world of Islam once and for all.

Your entire post is great. This should be in U.S.S.Clueless's "Essential Library."

I wish there were a place on LGF to store especially terrific posts that sum up things so concisely. I often read various poster's words and think that they should be recorded somewhere easy-to-find. #62 zombie is one example of many I've seen on LGF.

70 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:38:24pm

#60 theparson

I know you are one of the good guys and a good Lizard but, I strongly disagree with you on this one. If I understand you premise, crazy killing Islamic are no different than crazy killing Christians, both are extremists.

Thanks, I appreciate your point of view. Let me ask you and everyone else this: The German soldiers and the Japanese soldiers thought that they were fighting the "good fight" by either imposed beliefs in education or conscription by force of arms (fight or die) is it possible that some or many of these Muslim are brought into the fight in like ways? How is that both sides call each other evil, reduce eachother to subhuman and that makes it easy to kill the enemy. I don't "hate" Muslims and that being said...I would defend my family and my country if need be from the fanatics, but they all all cannot be fanatics. There has to be some logical and clear minded Muslims out there. If only they would have the courage to speak out.

71 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:38:29pm

#67 Aquatic...

Hey, you know what Little Green Footballs is? I didn't get that memo. Last I heard Charles was keeping it a secret. How 'bout it Charles... showing favs?

72 mickthemick  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:39:05pm

#51 gunslingah

Amazing how intolerant they become when a "person of color" wanders off their Democratic plantation.

They are demented like that. That's why it is said that liberalism is a mental disease, and examples like that prove it. Thank you for protecting this country, and I am sorry for the crap like that you've had to endure trying to do it. God bless you, and please post again!

73 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:40:28pm
#58 NY Nana -- Friends that have studied the quran find it to be a bloody instruction book on hate and killing as a part of their cult...I do not intend to read it.

I read several full translations of it in the 1980s, and I would have agreed completely with your friends. My opinion of Islam, once educated, has not changed since.

A more bloodthirsty, barbaric, compassionless religious treatise full of hate I've never read in all the major religions texts I've studied (and I've studied most of them).

The Koran is, fundamentally, a 7th Century political doctrine, with detailed rules for personal behavior, justified by claims of Divine authority. …And not just any 7th Century political doctrine, but that of a primitive warlord living in the sands of the Middle East among warring tribes ruled by similarly brutal, petty "kings."

The Koran freezes it all in time. And now, in the 21st Century, millions of people are trying to live by it, to conquer the whole world which, to its writer, meant a few square miles of sand.

Only now they're threatening to get their hands on nuclear weapons. NOT GOOD!

74 Abu Maven  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:40:40pm

39 rtheyserius

Yeah, you've basiscally just summed up my view of the situation as well. It seems so obviously correct, and yet when I voice it to non-LGFers, they think I'm nuts and better yet, an "Islamophobe."

75 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:41:05pm

#70 MARS Trucker

I truly hope you are right. And, I can't say you are wrong. I just don't see it. Based on the Qu'ran, which clearly calls for the destruction of all "infidels" and the actions that I see, I just hold little hope for any kind of moderate Islam.

76 Arrr  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:41:09pm

I honestly have mixed feelings about Daniel Pipes. He's done a lot of good, but he seems to be a little overzealous. Fadl is NOT our enemy.

77 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:42:23pm

#62 zombie

I couldn't agree more.

78 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:43:37pm

#75 theparson

Where there is LGF, there is always hope...

79 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:45:18pm

#65 theparson

#62 Zombie
That is the most concise, coherent description of Islam I have ever read. I (with your permission) am going to use that as a quote for my next class (with citation, of course).

Permission granted.

#69 Promethea

 #62 zombie . . .
Your entire post is great. This should be in U.S.S.Clueless's "Essential Library."

I wish there were a place on LGF to store especially terrific posts that sum up things so concisely. I often read various poster's words and think that they should be recorded somewhere easy-to-find. #62 zombie is one example of many I've seen on LGF.

Man oh man, I really can't handle all these compliments. I'm just too embarrassed now. (For real.)

80 EE  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:45:33pm
terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women

-- Abdel Rahman al-Rashed.

Terrorism is a Muslim problem, and refusal to admit so is indeed troubling.

--Anouar Boukhar.

These quotes are important for two reasons.

First of all, the substance of these statements stands against what some apologists for Islam in the West have been saying. There is a real problem in Islam, in that it has been too susceptible to terrorism, compared to the generally lesser susceptibility of non-Muslims to terrorism in this 21st century.

Secondly, the very fact that there are Muslims who see this stands against the false notion that all Muslims support terrorism, and that there isn't a difference between them that is worth anything.

It is difficult for me to divide the ummah into Islamists and moderates. Is life really that simple? I think that each individual in the ummah at any point in time stands on some scale ranging from complete support to the Islamists (and even participation in terrorism), to vigorous opposition to the Islamists and to terrorism. And there is a whole range of positions in between.

But this range makes it extremely difficult for us to act. If we don't know who our enemy is, how can we wage effective war against him?

Pipes' division of the ummah into Islamists and moderates allows us to think in terms of making war on the Islamists (real military war, criminal-justice war, economic war, political war), and thinking of the moderates as potential allies.

It's basically binary, in this model: the bad guys and the good guys.

As for those in-between, they are not the leaders of Islam, and they will follow the side that seems to be victorious, because that is the easiest path to follow.

81 republicanista  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:46:08pm

#70 Mars Trucker

I agree that there must be a lot of moderate muslims out there that just want what we want: to feed our families and get some time off work. There is value in seeking the good in people.

But I still don't believe islam can be saved. Any good Germans disgusted by the death camps disavowed the nazi party. Islam is the same. Eventually, good muslims will have to disavow their fundamentally flawed religion and find something human to believe in.

I didn't start out believing this way, but the more I read of islam, the farther I go in this direction.

82 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:46:41pm

MARS Trucker

You bet :-)

83 Abu Maven  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:47:26pm

62 Zombie,

Interesting thesis, and well articulated. On the other hand, one cannot reasonably deny that Islam is derived from Judaism and Christianity, which suggests that it is likely more a "religion" -- in the Western sense -- than say Buddhism and Hinduism.

Ultimately, I think what we Westerners are mistakenly imposing is not our concept of "religion" per se, but our knee-jerk assumptions that religions are invariably good and peaceful. It may well be that Islam is a "religion," just a violent and bad one.

84 Bubble Girl  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:49:19pm

Mars Trucker --

Come on, Dude, unless you come from another planet there is some strife, genocide, and warfare lurking in your genes....

It's time to drop the scoreboard and concentrate on the here and now. I needed to here from the Muslims, any Muslims, that there are those who do not agree with the extremists nor condone their heinous actions.

Then I need to hear that the UN is getting kicked out of the US.

85 Norwegian kafir  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:49:33pm

#76: I'm not 100% sure, but my hunch is that Pipes does not believe himself everything he's saying about "moderate Muslims". However, having worked for years with radical Islam, also before 9/11, he needs to refrain from denouncing Islam itself just to stay safe and retain public credibility.

86 Aquatic Cadaver Dog  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:51:39pm

#71 theparson

Yes, Charles entrusted me with the secret which I will keep until I get my asking price on e-bay.

87 transferthem  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:52:39pm

Identifying moderate muslims is not that hard. Just ask if they support human rights for the Jewish People. Just ask if they condemn antisemitic sermons. Just ask if they support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State. Just ask if they condemn arab and muslim terror against Jews in Israel.

A no to any of those questions means they aren't moderate.

Simple really

88 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:52:54pm

#63 republicanista

To call islam misguided and controlled is as shortsighted as you accuse me of being

Sorry if that is what you thought. If I am wrong on this, please help me out here. In my view most of the people in islam are kept in the dark and are educated in a closed program if you will. I hear terms such as submission and I am to understand that they are all out clear the world of non-believers.
I went through a very messed up child custody situation and by my own choice I underwent parenting classes overseen by a very informitive and caring muslim woman who knew where I was coming from. She made no judgements on me or others in the class. She wore the traditional head wear and she was very open to our questions about her beliefs...she was a big help in a bad time.

89 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:53:08pm

#81 republicanista

When you apply the standard given by Zombie, which seems to be the true nature of Islam, and dissassociate it from a religion you get a truer picture. Most people have some kind of religion. Most of those people, to some degree, compartmentalize, or seperate their religion from their normal life, so to speak. However, Islam is not a religion, per se. It is a way of life. This book, the Qu'ran is not a book of how to worship, it is a book of life and lifestyle for them. Therefore, there is no compartmentalization. It is how they are to conduct every day life. Did that make sense?

90 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:55:03pm

#86 Aquatic

That's just wrong, just wrong :-(

91 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:56:09pm
#74 Abu Maven -- yet when I voice it to non-LGFers, they think I'm nuts

I hear you. Same here. Well, you're in good company. ;-)

They won't get it until it's long past too late to avoid.

Once again, history is the template.

92 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:57:27pm

This staying up 'til midnight on LGF has gotta stop! No wonder I keep falling asleep in my soup.

93 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:57:30pm

#71 theparson

#67 Aquatic...
Hey, you know what Little Green Footballs is? I didn't get that memo. Last I heard Charles was keeping it a secret. How 'bout it Charles... showing favs?

Actually, I'm pretty sure I know where the name "Little Green Footballs" comes from. And no, Charles has never played favorites and told me. I just figured it out from various hard-to-find clues over the last year. I posted the answer a while ago -- I'd give a link to it here, but the LGF search function doesn't seem to be working at the moment, so I can't find it.

But yes, the answer is out there. You just have to know where to look.

94 hipper_than_thou  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:58:30pm
95 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 7:59:47pm

#93 Zombie

Sure, the preacher is always the last to know.

96 Bubble Girl  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:01:55pm

#87 True

97 Aquatic Cadaver Dog  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:02:32pm

#90 theparson

Until I was trulyenlightened, I thought little green footballs were what little boys blew out of their nose.

But now I know differently........

98 mickthemick  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:03:45pm

#71 the parson

Hey, you know what Little Green Footballs is?

OT-I have come to the conclusion that it has something to do with flicking boogers, but I have a very juvenile sense of humor. I also pick my nose a lot. :P :)

99 EE  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:06:13pm

#76 Arrr
Fadl at first denounced the terrorism of 9/11 and demanded that Muslim organizations take a more vigorous stand against terrorism. But he came under lots of pressure from CAIR and its sister organizations. He caved in. He became a supporter of CAIR and a vigorous opponent of all the practical measures for protecting ourselves against radical Islamist terrorists, including opposition to any sort of profiling, and all other measures to defend ourselves.

It was sad to see this intimidation, but it definitely worked, and it put Fadl on the wrong side concerning our self-defense.

Not all Muslims are terrorists. But all of the jihadi terrorists have been Muslims. So it is practical to allocate resources for investigating potential troublemakers accordingly. Fadl opposes this.

If someone opposes our self-defense, he cannot be regarded as a friend concerning what is most important to us: our safety.

Also, Fadl has become a definite and forceful enemy of Pipes, Emerson, and all those who have taken a stand for self-defense against jihadi terrorism. So the feelings have become mutual.

100 theparson  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:08:06pm

Green boogers. Is that what we've come too? Little green boogers? I prefer to think it's that game we played as kids where we folded dollar bills into little triangles and played football on the desk.

101 mickthemick  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:09:28pm

#76 Arr

I honestly have mixed feelings about Daniel Pipes.

As well you should. I like Pipes, and I'm on his mailing list, although I don't agree with absolutely every single thing I read. I agree that he's too paranoid sometimes.

102 mickthemick  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:13:23pm

#100 theparson

Green boogers. Is that what we've come too?

LOL! No, it's just that it's getting late and for some reason I'm getting silly. I see others are, too. And I don't even think this is the drinking thread.

103 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:13:57pm

#84 Bubble Girl

Come on, Dude, unless you come from another planet there is some strife, genocide, and warfare lurking in your genes....

Ok ...how about I won't be blinded by Hate...yeah I won't forget the attacks on the USS Cole, WTC I and II. I just will not live my life in fear of the terrorists, I will not be a victim of fear period!

104 Merovign  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:15:01pm

#50 MARS Trucker

I respect your views and your contributions here.

If you're having a hard time seeing the difference, I'm neither Christian nor Muslim, yet from the outside there's a VERY, VERY clear difference. Zombie's #62 description is dead on AFAICT, and even as an "outsider" I'm a little aghast at the comparison.

The most particularly "conquista" Catholics were, of course, Spanish Catholics (also note the difference between the Papal Inquisition and the Spanish Inquisition). Do you think there might have been some cultural influences on the Spanish that the Italians, Dutch, English, and Germans didn't have? What might that have been?

No, Islam does not have a monopoly on cruelty. Japan does not have a monopoly on TVs.

I hope I don't sound overly critical here, I just don't see the equivalence, and the more I learn the more clear the differences are. Sure, people are imperfect all over, but what they are trying to become matters and shows through. What culture idolizes murderers in front of its children? What culture teaches its children to dream of absolute conquest and dominion? Who says their god promises them eternal lust in return for murder and conquest?

Why is there such division even talking about this in the West? Why do so many not see from the very founding documents the core of the problem?

I for one DO believe that Islam can have its own reformation. But I admit that view is based on hope, not reason. And I wouldn't put money on it.

#51 gunslingah

Most welcome, but be careful about how much detail you give. We, of course, want to know everything, but there are snarky people trying to cause trouble everywhere, and we wouldn't want to see you in trouble for talking out of school.


OT:

Ack! You changed the order of the entry fields! I'm a creature of habit! Ack! :)

105 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:15:06pm

#62 Zombie

Perfect post....

#72 rtheyserius

I love the nic! Please don't tell anyone (shhhhhh), but I just figured it out!

The Koran freezes it all in time. And now, in the 21st Century, millions of people are trying to live by it, to conquer the whole world which, to its writer, meant a few square miles of sand.

Only now they're threatening to get their hands on nuclear weapons. NOT GOOD!

Exactly. I fear that it may be beyond mere threatening. And the idea that they will ever become a part of the countries they are now invading? Ludicrous and naive. When the Chancellor of Germany can call for them to 'join us'...he seems to finally have bought a clue, as the Netherlands and possibly Belgium also are realizing after the door has been opened wide..fwance? not bloody likely!

Chancellor Gerhard Schröder has warned Germany's immigrant population to come out of the ghettos and integrate better into society, saying he will not allow a foreign culture to develop inside the country.

"A democracy can neither tolerate lawless areas, nor parallel societies," he said in an address aimed at the more than three million Muslims in Germany, most of whom are Turks or of Turkish descent.

"The diversity of cultures in our society is a fact, which cannot be reversed, and which we do not want to reverse. But no culture can separate itself from the social fabric."

While Berlin nervously eyes a recent wave of anti-Islamic violence in Holland, Mr Schröder has tried to tread carefully in Germany's immigration and tolerance debate

see rest of article...

I have no love nor liking for the Germans or Germany, and never will, as too many of my family were burned in theor ovens, but at least Chancellor Schröder seems to understand. How any country can send them back is beyond me..I am so worried. After seeing what 9/11 did to NY? G-d help us..the f*ing u.n. can go to hell.

106 JimmyTheClaw  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:16:38pm

i judt read a really good pipes Q and a in a VFW rag its really prophetic

107 hipper_than_thou  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:17:11pm

OT: Pictures From Arafat's Funeral .Be sure to scroll down to find the one with the sign, stating, "F*** Bush, Merci Chirac". Gotta love those Paleos.

108 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:17:46pm
#83 Abu Maven -- Ultimately, I think what we Westerners are mistakenly imposing is not our concept of "religion" per se, but our knee-jerk assumptions that religions are invariably good and peaceful.

Technically, in the context of world religions, Islam is a "Western" religion -- being in the same group as Christianity and Judaism. It is in no way unintelligible to the "Western" mind -- rather, perhaps, to the modern mind. So, in that sense, I agree with you.

However, I can't help also agreeing with zombie that Islam is not properly a religion (though my reasons for saying so are different from Said's).

Islam is only a religion on the surface, and not even unique in that respect, being derived from Judaism and Christianity.

Rather, and more to the point, Islam is a political doctrine couched in religiosity as a means to claim its authority. The fact that it wraps every utterance in references to 'God' in no way changes the fact that its central focus is cultural and military.

Here's a interesting question. How many people do you know who worship Zeus? Not many, I'll bet. It is possible to wipe out a religion. It just isn't pretty.

When Islam makes it ugly enough to us (the "Western" world) to make wiping them out worthwhile, you can bet the West will do it. Just not until the multiculturalists are screaming for BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD! Until then, Islam has the upper hand because the "West" is divided.

109 JimmyTheClaw  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:18:41pm

#10 gunslingah 11/23/2004 08:34PM PST

to quote scooby doo rots of ruck

110 Islamophobic Warmongering Infidel  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:20:18pm

Moderate muslim????????????? WTF??? Has the world gone mad???
Is there such a thing as a moderate Nazi? No?....Well there is no such thing as a moderate muslim either.
Unless the [bigoted word]s from ALL OVER the world speak with .....ONE........voice about the shear insane mind set of what we know are muslims, AND act to stop them in a unifed manner, there will be no such thing as a moderate muslim.
In the meantime, the world grows to hate whoever represents these shells of humans who use womens skirts and children and the innocents to ply their insane belief. They are cowards in the purest since of the word.

111 hipper_than_thou  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:20:53pm

Apologies. Don't know why my link didn't work. Let's try it again. Photos from Arafat's Funeral.

112 EE  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:22:09pm

#76 arrr, and #101 mickthemick
Is there anybody who has done a better job than Pipes in identifying moderates in the ummah?

Daniel Pipes also understands the gravity of the problem of militant Islam.

The first step in responding to an understanding of the seriousness of the problem has been to actually wage war against it, according to Pipes. That involves marshalling all of our resources to wage that war. That has been done by Pres. George W. Bush.

The second step, which hasn't been done yet, according to Pipes, is to recognize that we must be fighting an ideology. Not just a vicious means of warfare, which is terrorism, but an ideology must be our enemy, just as fascism and nazism and communism were our enemies in the previous century.

In emphasizing the seriousness of the threat, but also recognizing the importance of recognizing moderates in the ummah, Pipes addresses what is most important, but also strikes a balance.

113 NY Nana  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:22:23pm

#98 mickthemick

ROFLMAO!!!!! Thanks for a well-needed laugh!

Totally OT, but this one's for you! nose picking healthy

Take a good look at the cartoon..I think you may be on to something re LGF!

114 Bubble Girl  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:25:23pm

I think it's almost impossible to maintain a formal Muslim lifestyle if you live here in the US. Muslim kids go out into the world and begin the process of assimilating no matter how hard the parents try to restrict them. Unless you have the "cult" personality which leads some people into cult-like societies. Remember the Hari Krishna's in the airports?
I live around some Mennonites, they are Amish but drive, very, very fast, especially during ice and snow storms, talk about faith! The women aren't allowed to wear pants, you should see the looks I get from them wearing my levi's. They can't cut their hair, the women, they have to wear bonnets on their heads, the men wear overalls, have beards, and so do the little kids. But it separates them from the rest of us ordinary people and they enjoy being their special Mennonite selves.

Then I have Rastafarians, just second and third generation hippies, they've dropped out, at least for a while and they wallow in their specialness.

The Jehovah Witnesses are the pain in the ass, they get points for "saving" people even though only a fraction of them (so they believe) will get into heaven.

All of them think they are better than everyone else, in their own way, but there is no anti-semitism nor gay bashing.

Hopefully the Muslims will find their own groove and leave the hate part behind.

115 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:25:36pm

#104 Merovign


I hope I don't sound overly critical here


That's cool, that's what LGF is all about...bouncing off each other. If you think I am full of B.S. or wrong ect... say so, no problems here, I am big enough to handle it and I might just learn something too.

What culture idolizes murderers in front of its children?


If memory serves me, in the old west (although they we hung or shot) guys like Jesse James and Billy the Kid were like the "Thugs" idolized on MTV today...Young Buck for example.

116 Smug Monkey  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:27:35pm

My idea of a "moderate muslim."

117 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:33:57pm
#111 hipper_than_thou 
Photos from Arafat's Funeral.

Those are some excellent action shots from the funeral. I award that Russian guy the brand new (I just made it up) Zombie Award for fearless independent photojournalism.

118 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:34:37pm

#116 Smug Monkey


I see that he is wearing the "color of death" jumpsuit. I hope that Caltrans stops making workers wear orange, it's already tough enough out there on the freeways.

119 hornet  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:36:57pm

This article by Arlene Peck talks about (mentions) moderate muslim, near the end.

It's 0136 hrs here, have read Every post. Must hit the hay so I can do the same tomorrow. I have learned a lot tonight.

[Link: www.israelnn.com...]http://www.israelnn.com/article.php3?id=4460

120 Lewis  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:38:01pm

#79 zombie

Man oh man, I really can't handle all these compliments. I'm just too embarrassed now. (For real.)

Okay, then, you suck.

...

Oh, screw it, I'll pile on too: that post, #62, yeah that one, right there, is fcuking genius, man. A gem. A winner. A keeper.

I can't really say if it's truly accurate or not, but - damn - that's some thought-provoking writing; and damn well-said, too.

...

I've only recently started to board the "It's-not-a-religion-it's-a-death-cult" bandwagon. I used to think that those people were lunatics, but I gotta tell ya, from here in the asylum, they're starting to make a lot of sense. :-)

*Sigh* Next up: the bigelization of Lewis. It's sure to a blast of Sampsonian proportions.

121 mickthemick  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:38:23pm

#112 EE

Is there anybody who has done a better job than Pipes in identifying moderates in the ummah?

On the contrary, I would say Pipes' work has been a more valuable resource when it comes to identifying the Islamist agenda behind many Muslim organizations in the U.S. On the other hand, I agree with Pipes (and with you) that the U.S. must be less worried about offending Muslims, and publicly acknowledge that we are fighting a real war against dangerous men using an ideology based on a violent, expansionist interpretation of the Koran and hadith.

122 JimmyTheClaw  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:38:57pm

this might come down to the free world treating muslims like amelekites [sp]

123 Jayce  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:39:25pm

Walid Shobat was a Muslim PLO terrorist before he became a "moderate"; then, he converted to Christianity, became a true friend to Israel and the U.S. and fled for his life.
.
I too see the problem as Islam itself. And the combination of religious Arabs and Islam like that of gasoline and fire. Non-Arab muslims can be more moderate, like many of the Iranian people.
IMO,Arab secular Muslims can be moderate; however, this is the middle east and you never know if/when they'll give in to violence. Afterall, they have been brainwashed to kill, kill, kill by their war lords from infancy. I've heard that Black Muslims in the States have a different, milder form of Islam.

These folks may be anomalies, but I don't see how one can condemn terrorism and remain an observant Mohammedan. Islam as a religion of Jihad needs to be reformed by the 'moderates', if there are enough of them, and soon. Or it needs to be shelved. There is not enough good in it.

As the rabbis said when Mohammed offered them the Koran, "What's true isn't new. and what's new isn't true."

124 Beagle  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:39:58pm

#108 rtheyserius

How many people do you know who worship Zeus? Not many, I'll bet.

But have you noticed the similarity between Zeus and depictions of God in Christianity? Uh, from the waist up anyway. I don't think it's a coincidence. Roman artists had to make the switch.

125 Bubble Girl  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:40:14pm

Mars Trucker -

Just tryin to get you up and out of the 15th Century. It's just that people have been talking about making right the wrongs we committed in the past 400 years. I'm like, come on, I wasn't around then, I am not responsible for killing off the Indians nor was I a slaveholder. Terrorism is now. Muslim extremists is now.
Anti-Semitism is popping back up again, and even though I wasn't alive during Hitler's monsterous reign I think it's my duty to make sure nothing like that happens again. Just because we are modern doesn't mean we couldn't slip into another Dark Ages or worse.

126 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:41:31pm

#116 Smug Monkey

Hilarious! Way too true.

127 JimmyTheClaw  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:42:19pm

where and who said "the decendants of ishmael will be like wild asses of men to men"

128 Beagle  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:45:35pm

I plan on framing post #62 and putting it in a place of honor where I can read it all the time. That would be right in front of my toilet. ;-)

But seriously folks, zombie knows her stuff. Read some of the topics imams deal with. Would you ask your priest, pastor, rabbi, coven leader how to shave your butt?

I'm assuming that is a no. In Islam, there are many 'relgious' rulings on farting, shaving, and going to the bathroom. No sh!t.

129 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:46:41pm

#125 Bubble Girl

Agreed. We need to learn from the past so we don't repeat the past.

130 MARS Trucker  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:49:30pm

Later y'all, be good

131 Beagle  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:51:56pm

#116 Smug Monkey

That looks exactly like my baby girl German shepherd, but she's about 90 pounds. That dog looks to be about 70-75 pounds.

That's the picture where I just threw my hands up with the MSM - "TORTURE!" Little girls in my neighborhood are braver than that Baathist-insurgent-jihadist.

132 Bubble Girl  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:52:10pm

I'm confused - I caught some smack from a troll who called me a racist after reading my post about Muslim extremists.
I thought I was a bigot since Muslim isn't a race it is a religion.
Now it's not a religion. So who is Allah and are they fake praying in the mosques, besides all the hate mongering?

133 Smug Monkey  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:52:15pm

Here's a picture for the mooolaaahs to contemplate - not only do we have them, we lounge about snapping cool pictures of them.

Coming soon to a theatre near you.

134 Q  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:54:12pm

republicanista (#50):

Conquistadors were bad, they brought down the Aztec and Incan empires.

A minor point, perhaps, but: the Aztec empire richly deserved to be wiped out. Its foundation was a mass slaughter-based demented cult, every bit as vile as -- and perhaps even more bloody than -- Islam.

135 Lewis  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:57:09pm

Didn't someone - Pipes, perhaps - do a list of questions to ask Muslims in order to ascertain whether they're really moderate or not?

Does anyone remember this? Link, maybe? TIA.

136 gunslingah  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 8:58:14pm

#104 merovign: "Most welcome, but be careful about how much detail you give."

I don't want to get in trouble for talking out of school, either. There are just some things I had to get off my chest. This seemed the best forum for it.

137 Thomas  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:00:22pm

# 24 Vickie

When will these Islamists be DEFINED as MODERATE? Whats the criteria for that?

Maybe when they convert to Judaism, Christianity, Hindu, Buddism, or even atheism.

Zombie

Your # 62 post

You succesfully converted gosymer to concrete, thank you.

138 Abu Maven  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:00:28pm

108 rtheyserius

I think we are on the same page, but are simply quibbling over definitions. You are contending that Islam is in no sense a "religion" because it contains this all-encompassing way-of-life, political/militaristic dymanic, whereas I am willing allow such dynamics into my admittedly broad definition of "religion," provided, however, that we discard the notion that religions are automatically "good."

As to the multi-cultis calling for blood, I think we are seeing that in the Netherlands now. I must admit I am totally puzzled by it. When it happened on election day, it was nothing more than a footnote in my head. We've witnessed 9/11, Bali, Madrid, Beslan, etc -- and I don't think any country has reacted as ferociously as have the Dutch. Anyone care to posit a theory on that?

139 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:00:49pm

#124 Beagle

Interesting observation. Christianity is certainly derived from many sources, principly from Zoroastrianism. So the image you have in mind may actually be more Persian than Greek.

But it's an interesting thought, just the same. I mean, how many people do you know who worship Ahura Mazda?

Mythologies and religions do intermix and co-influence. And oddly, it's usually the conquering mythology that is influenced by that of the conquered (when the conquered is not obliterated), not so much the other way around.

Moral: obliterate your enemies, don't assimilate them. That's been the rule of Christianity, at least as practiced by the Romans, and it worked pretty well. ...Except when Christianity attempted to demonize, rather than obliterate, the gods of those conquered (the various 'pagans' with their 'cults' of nature worship focused on horned animals, goats, etc. -- giving rise to imagery of Satan and other evil beasts as, well, beasts of that type).

It used to be that the conquering folks would take the symbols and images of the conquered folks, and build them into their own mythologies as inferior, lesser, or 'evil' gods or spirits.

Humans sure are a funny lot.

Islam, BTW, has a rich heritage of imagery and architecture, quite aside from literature, that would be hard to eradicate. Its influences are everywhere.

Overall, I'd say Islam must be contained and managed. Its complete destruction, while possible as an active religion, is unlikely, as a civilization.

140 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:02:22pm

Abu Maven, yes, I think we basically agree.

141 superninja  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:03:03pm

The problem is that Islam, in its current form, has never progressed past the Crusades - because it didn't win.

And that's really the key. Islam is the part of sore losers.

Christianity fought it back during that time. It was a religious and cultural war, and the Arabs have never gotten over it. Or rather, their leaders have never allowed them to, because it was useful to them. But that really speaks to the nature of the people, I think.

The Prophet Mohammed was made fun of, and treated like an outcast by Arabs and Jews in Arab society until he waged jihad and subjugated them. Islam has never had his like since Saladin.

Arab men, specifically, that grow up in Western cultures, are subjected to the Pan-Arab nonsense that the West is evil and then when they feel really powerless turn into Islamonuts.

This is because Mohammed is an irrational murderer/rapist/nepotist/pedophile. He can justify whatever behavior they want, and the Imams will agree as long as it's against the West.

But they treat him as Jews revere Moses or Christians revere Jesus Christ.

Moses had flaws, but pedophilia was not amongst them.


I do not consider Islam as anything but a perversion of the Jewish and Christian books which came before it.

It is a work of Satan, pretending to be all of the things that the Talmud and the Bible are. It's perverted.

142 Q  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:05:31pm

rtheyserius (#139):

I mean, how many people do you know who worship Ahura Mazda?

Zoroastrainism does still exist, but its numbers are very insignificant -- not the least because one cannot convert into it.

143 Bubble Girl  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:06:07pm

#141
It must be appealing because aren't there more Muslims, than any other group of what ever they are, around the world?

144 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:08:29pm

#124 Beagle

 #108 rtheyserius
How many people do you know who worship Zeus? Not many, I'll bet.

But have you noticed the similarity between Zeus and depictions of God in Christianity? Uh, from the waist up anyway. I don't think it's a coincidence. Roman artists had to make the switch.

Beagle is right on the money. rtheyserius: aside from the smattering of modern-day neopagans (just ask Beagle) who do in fact include Zeus in their pantheistic rituals, there still is a bit of folk worship of various Greek dieties in the Greek countryside. Yes, for real -- seen it with my own eyes.

But much more importantly, as Beagle says, in one sense you could say that 1 billion Christians worldwide unknowingly visualize Zeus when thinking of God. Because, in order to popularize the Jewish sect we now refer to as Christianity among gentiles, early Christian fathers consciously and intentionally co-opted the attributes of various pagan deities into Christian rituals and artwork. The sky-gods from all sorts of pagan religions were conflated with YHWH, whose original non-substantiation was a little too cerebral for the pagani. Earth mothers were identified with Mary, and sacrificial rebirth demi-gods with Jesus.

It worked. The gentiles came over to Christianity since it preserved many of their pagan ways of thinking. The purely Jewish aspect of first-generation Christianity could not have been popularized outside the Jewish community.

I'm not at liberty to say how or why, but I know a LOT about this particular subject.

145 Lewis  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:10:35pm

#138 Abu Maven

Anyone care to posit a theory on that?

I'm thinking of a quote, which I'll probably butcher, but the gist of it is this: one death is a tragedy; a thousand deaths is a statistic.

People can wrap their heads around the idea of the murder of one person much more easily than they can the idea of the murder of a thousand. They can personalize it.

Or, as a friend pointed out to me while watching John Carpenter's "The Thing": we can watch people in movies getting shot and killed by the dozen, and we shrug; but when we see Kurt Russell slicing his thumb with a knife, we wince.

It don't make no sense, but there ya go.

146 Bubble Girl  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:10:43pm

Zombie - so mysterious...........

147 superninja  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:14:51pm

#143 Bubble Girl

What really, are you asking me?

148 Bubble Girl  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:17:27pm

145 - No, it has everything to do with the weapon used. Knifes are messier than guns. You can shoot someone from a distance but you have to get up close and personal to stab or cut someone. The reaction to knives stem from growing up, even paper cuts hurt, imagine a giant papercut from a butcher knife.

Besides watching fake deaths in a movie is very, very different that seeing it happen in person.

149 Lewis  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:19:21pm

#143 Bubble Girl

It must be appealing because aren't there more Muslims, than any other group of what ever they are, around the world?

Just like Communism must be appealing, because there are more Chinese than any other group of what ever they are around the world.

150 Bubble Girl  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:19:31pm

Hmmm, Zombie, not asking anything, just remarking on your last sentence......

I'm not at liberty to say how or why, but I know a LOT about this particular subject.

151 rtheyserius  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:19:41pm

zombie and superninja, you both make excellent points.

It's a fascinating discussion!

Alas, it's bed time for Mr. rtheyserius.

G'night.... zzzzzZZZZZZ!!!! [bump! OUCH!! ...mumble-mumble...] zzzzzzzzzzz.....

152 Abu Maven  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:22:53pm

Lewis,

Perhaps, but I suspect there something else at play. Surely, there have been Islamic terrorist acts that killed only a single person, and yet no major backlash ensued. Off the top of my head, just in the USA, think of the El Al shooting in LAX. Or, to go way back, how about Robert Kennedy's assasination? RFK was more iconic than Van Gogh, for sure.

Further, I think here in the US plenty of us learned many individual stories of each of the 3000 victims. Kids who lost mothers and fathers, etc. You couldn't miss it. And yet, no violence was directed towards Muslims thereafter.

There is something rotten in Holland, and I can't put my finger on it.

153 Merovign  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:26:08pm

#115 MARS Trucker

Okay. Cool. Then:

Now. Nownownow. Now. Nownow. Not then. Now. Now now now.

Timing is a part of this, as cultures progress they tend to smooth out some of thw wrinkles. Yes, there are regressions (Ganster Rap would at least have been a current example), but since we are comparing Christianity vs. Islam, not really. And Outlaw Worshippers didn't take much comfort from the words of JC.

#127 JimmyTheClaw

Elton John?

#136 gunslingah

I don't even know why I posted that, not like you don't know the rules. :) We need all the voices we can get on the 'sphere.

Me and my darn two cents. :)

#142 Q

Add to that the fact that the ancient home of Zoroastrianism is ruled by a "faith" that has not been on the best behavior with regards to the Zorros... though there is a substantial community that fled to the relative tolerance of India.

154 superninja  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:30:08pm

144 zombie

This is a gross interpretation of Christianity!

Zeus is just a pagan intreptation of God.

I am I Christian, and I believe in a God who created the universe so that we could come to know him and grow closer to him by figuring him out throughout history.

He gives us means to know him, whereas, Zeus is simply an aspect of the worst of human nature. Lust for woman, throwing his power about.

The Greek Gods are too human. The divine is different.

155 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:32:45pm
#152 Abu Maven
Surely, there have been Islamic terrorist acts that killed only a single person, and yet no major backlash ensued. ...
There is something rotten in Holland, and I can't put my finger on it.

I think that this particular case has everything to do with the victim's last name. If Jan Q. Poovlik, underground filmmaker, had been killed, no one would have noticed. But a VAN GOGH -- Shocking! The Dutch idolize Vincent Van Gogh more than any other single historical figure. Theo was one of the last people on Earth who had real Van Gogh blood in his veins. In my opinion, that and that alone is why their reaction was so extreme.

But I wouldn't call it "rotten" -- I think "overdue" is more appropriate.

156 Beagle  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:33:34pm

#139 rtheyserious

Interesting observation. Christianity is certainly derived from many sources, principly from Zoroastrianism.


[can of worms alert]
"Many sources" - yes.
[/can of worms]

#141 superninja

The problem is that Islam, in its current form, has never progressed past the Crusades - because it didn't win.

Actually, the Crusades were a huge victory for Islam. Islam spread out of the Arabian Peninsula and conquered the "Holy Land". The Crusades ultimately failed to recapture them, leading to French torture, kangaroo trials, and execution of the Knights Templar. Constantinople, the seat of Orthodox Christianity and the Eastern Roman Empire fell to the Turks in 1453 (it's now Istanbul).

Later, the Ottoman Empire expanded the territory of Islam dramatically. All that remains is Western Europe, and by a thread. The Muslims almost conquered France, Italy, and Austria at various times from the Eighth Century to the Seventeenth Centuries.

Recently, thirty years ago, Turkey conquered Cyprus. They burned churches, defiled altars, and hacked the Orthodox bishop to pieces in the street.

If Islam wasn't winning, only a small part of the Arabian Peninsula would be Islamic. But Hamtramk, Michigan and large chunks of Paris are now part of Dar al Islam.

157 Lewis  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:34:01pm
There is something rotten in Holland, and I can't put my finger on it.

Uh, it's a tiny country, and normal people now (justifiably) feel threatened by the Muslims in their midst? And this perceived threat didn't just start with Van Gogh - it's been building for better than a dozen years -- areas of major cities where you just can't go anymore at night, getting aggressively (sometimes VERY aggressively) hastled for change by immigrants at the train station?

The fact that Muslim immigrants have taken Holland's legendary tolerance and spit on it? And then stomped on it with steel-toed boots, shot it, and sent it to the Russian front?

The fact that they've got politicians forced into hiding by the intolerance on one very specific, very new-to-the-country demographic group?

Something rotten? They're pissed off, and that's good. The French should be so rotten.

158 Bubble Girl  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:37:51pm

Lewis -
I agree with you. I'm not too sure about Van Gogh's murder but wasn't the actual circumstances kind of in your face, the way the killers attacked him and the reasons for killing him.

159 Lewis  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:38:47pm

#155 zombie

Jan Q. Poovlik

Priceless! You've got a talent. And I agree with you about the cachet of the Van Gogh name.

160 Abu Maven  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:40:54pm

Zombie and Lewis,

I agree. I am happy things are "rotten" in Holland. I just felt like using the phrase, you know, "something's rotten in Denmark."

But Zombie, if it were merely the iconic status of Van Gogh (who was he anyway, the great nephew or something? big deal!), what about RFK's murder? Not a truly an Islamic murder, you say? Didn't Sirhan claim he was doing it for Palestine? On the other hand, the context of the global jihad, Al Qaeda, etc., probably wasn't in place at the time.

Indeed, imagine if the identical act were perpetrated against Van Gogh in 1985, you think the Dutch start banning Muslims and passing Patriot Acts? Doubt it. We live in interesting times.

161 Abu Maven  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:43:34pm

Night all.

162 Lewis  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:44:52pm

#158 Bubble Girl

The killer left a 6 page (or something like that) letter threatening a Dutch politician on Van Gogh's body, using his knife like a giant thumbtack.

That's pretty in-your-face.

163 Uhller Isshaytan  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:45:13pm
Minister Rita Verdonk offers her hand to an imam, who respectfully told her that he could not shake a woman's hand (tv footage)

[Link: www2.rnw.nl...]

164 Lewis  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:51:47pm

Ahm packin' it in. Night all.

165 lynn.thule  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:52:28pm

Husein Ibish is an extremist? Okay , Pipes is a MORON.

166 lynn.thule  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:53:03pm

what is this> a blog for the KKK? Hate speech of this kind in America?

167 lynn.thule  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:54:37pm

muslims are evil, muslims are terrorists, nuke mecca---does that cover it? is this what conservatives have to offer?

the kkk could do better,

168 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:55:28pm

#154 superninja

144 zombie

This is a gross interpretation of Christianity!
Zeus is just a pagan intreptation of God.

I hope I didn't misconstrue what I was trying to say. I'm not comparing God to Zeus, only trying to remind everyone of this:

In the original Hebrew texts, the entity we now call "God" was an unnamable, unvisualizable, undepictable all-encompassing force. He remains so to observant Jews to this day. And when Jesus came along and gave his "Not a jot" speech (perhaps his most important), he was reaffirming this conception of YHWH. But much later, in Paul's day, the decision was made to bring Christianity to the gentiles. But at that stage in history, Christianity was still very close to its Jewish roots. Thus, almost all Christians were basically "Jews for Jesus," and there were practically no non-Jewish converts. Why? Because the gentiles (or pagans, as we now call them) were still very literal in their religious thinking, and could not conceive of a God that had no name and no physical form.

The solution? Over a long period (between about 70CE and 450CE) the early church fathers intentionally allowed pagan imagery to be ascribed to Christian holy figures -- God, Mary and Jesus in particular. All of this is well-documented, not just by modern scholars but by the Christian fathers themselves. The rationale was that this was the only way to bring the mass of people under the grace of Christianity, even if it did bring along with it a hint of paganism.

I'm in no way implying that the Christian "God" and the pagan dieties like "Zeus" are directly comparable, or even similar in their "personalities" -- only that pagan IMAGERY and (to a lesser extent) pagan rituals were indeed allowed to become incorporated into Christianity.

There's mountains of literature out there about this topic (some of it written by me, by the way), and it makes for very interesting reading. Learning about the beginnings of Christianity as a world religion ought in no way undermine the legitimacy of your spiritual beliefs. If anything, it will make you more awe-struck.

Unlike Islam, which forbids any analysis of its origins, Christianity can withstand (and has withstood) the most intense historical scrutiny, and emerge as strong as ever.

169 lynn.thule  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:57:36pm

oh this hunt for islamists is about as delicious as McCarthy's hunt for Communists.

170 Loch Inkopf  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:57:52pm

OT - and I apologise - but the following pro-Israel article by Julie Burchill appeared in this morning's "Times":

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

What makes it unique is firstly that it's so rare for the MSM to publish anything about Israel that isn't a hate-filled rant. And secondly, until recently, Julie Burchill was employed by the "Guradian" until she got so pissed off with their Zionism-is-fascism attitude that she walked.

(What makes it a little less unique is that the "Times" found it necessary to also publish an anti-Israeli hate-filled rant on the same page to show "balance", but then nobody's perfect)

171 superninja  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 9:58:25pm

156 Beagle

I find it we are quite perfectly in our places.

172 emj  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:03:50pm

#163 Uhller

Notice how the political scientist being interviewed blamed the incident on the Minister!

173 Beagle  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:04:43pm

#163 Uhller Isshaytan

The political "scientist" quoted from the article:

"No, exactly, and the whole idea in the Netherlands always used to be that you respect other people's convictions, you don't try to convert people to your convictions. You try to basically not force your own ideas and visions of society on others. And clearly that path of a sort of consensus democracy, whereby you give each group autonomy within its own circle, has gone, at least for the VVD."


...and Islam, which has never believed in respecting other people's convictions (ever).

Political scientists rely on a set of shared norms, based in the secular nation-state and individual rights. Too bad this political "scientist" needs a massive clue by four upside the head to know an enemy when he sees one.

174 gunslingah  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:06:51pm

#166 lynn.thule:

KKK? Yeah, I'm KKK. They have an equal opportunity program, now.

If you want to see real hate speech, read such passages as this: "Slay the pagans wherever you find them."

Real tolerance.

Guess which "great book" that comes from?

175 piglet  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:08:44pm

yes virginia,

Hussein Ibih is an extremist.


[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]


"Six days after the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, Ibish wrote that 'Rabin was a monster, war criminal, ethic cleanser, mass murderer and terrorist.' Five days later he went even further and essentially stated that all of the Jewish people needed to be murdered."

This is the same Hussein Ibish treated with kid gloves by commentators, network chiefs and editors nationwide. The Minuteman article continues, "As the well-paid editor of the Graduate Voice, 'Insane Ibish' turned that paper into such an open attack on all things Jewish that UMass literally had to establish an anti-Semitism task force and hire a Jewish Affairs director." No wonder Ibish identifies so proudly with the violent coercion of Mao, Deng and Fidel.

176 Beagle  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:09:07pm

I smell troll. Hand me my Holy Bastard Sword of Logic and History. I wonder if its mama knows it's up this late? It's already violated Beagle's First Corrolary to Godwin's Law: substitute McCarthy for Hitler. They don't teach them much in history classes any more. Sad really.

177 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:10:38pm

#165 - #169 lynn.thule
I really like your name. I guess you must be a big fan of the Thule Society. Excellent choice.

Is there some sort of competition being held for "stupidest troll" or something?

178 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:18:58pm

Beagle, isn't it 3:20am where you are? Time to curl up in a comfy dog bed.

Seriously, though, I must say that of all the commenters here on LGF, the one whose views most closely match mine, and whose posts I most agree with, is you. Really. (Second place I think would go to DP111.) We seem to be on the same political and historical wavelength.

Not sure if that's a compliment or not. Perhaps you think I'm a lunatic!

179 superninja  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:21:11pm

#168 zombie

So if God doesn't exist, where did your consciousness come from? Your own distinct ability to choose between right and wrong. Think upon that. Is it imagined, or given by God?

Ask that of yourself and then answer me.

180 Q  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:26:20pm

superninja (#179):

So if God doesn't exist, where did your consciousness come from?

For Azazel's sake, dude, zombie said no such thing. Not even close. His post is highly respective of Christianity.

You are battling the windmills -- and even they are imaginary.

181 superninja  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:35:14pm

#180 Q

I apologize. You're right and he's right.

182 Q  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:37:21pm

superninja (#181):

No problemo.

183 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:40:36pm
#179 superninja

Uhhh, not sure what you are referring to. I'm not talking about God's existence or non-existence, nor of His role in creating the universe. I was merely discussing the well-known and well-documented fusion of Hebraic theology and pagan imagery into the modern popular conception of what God "looks like," and also dipping a toe into the fascinating early stages of Christianity -- most of which was written by very devout Christians.

I am not impugning, criticizing or belittling God or Christianity, or anyone's faith or right thereto. Christian and Jewish scholarship is a mesmerizing subject, and can be learned and ejoyed by everyone of all faiths. There is nothing to fear in the topic, nor anything that merits getting upset over. Christianity is robust and will not whither under a little historical investigation.

We're on the same side here.

184 zombie  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:43:15pm

#181 superninja: Sorry, I took so long to type my reply that I didn't see your subsequent post.

Everything's cool.

185 Beagle  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:44:10pm

#178 zombie

I take that as a compliment. I find your posts to be enlightening and interesting. I just bookmarked the Thule Society link for future reference. I've been doing some research into several of those areas. Arianism is a subject I've been digging into recently. Not to be confused with Aryanism, which is something completely different the Thule Society was interested in.

My dogs think it's time for breakfast. Thought I'd share my misery.

** You might really get a kick out of the first two or three posts on my blog, now archived, given your historical background. There is so much more than what I mentioned in the blog entries. **

#179 superninja

On this whole God issue: I defer to Locke, Spinoza, and an all-encompassing monotheism. I was raised a Unitarian. In my mind that is the opposite of being an athiest. But the UU Church is now the Socialist Party, so I don't go any more.

186 Uhller Isshaytan  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 10:48:12pm

#172
#173
emj and Beagle.

The article is saying that the govt. is trying to make an issue by confronting the terrorists because Pim Fortuyn showed that this would increase votes, and this is what they're doing for the next elections.

Letting this idiot 'political scientist' have so much say shows the leanings of this idiotic Radio Netherlands.

They think that respect should be shown for the convictions of nazis, rapists and pedophiles, and 'we should not force our convictions upon them'.
..........................
Something like 'Prophet of Doom" should be made compulsory for all schools.

And also for all immigrants especially from Muslim countries.

And they should be tested on it before gaining citizenship.


There is no other way to assimilate other than them giving up the religion founded on the life of the godfather of the Meccan/Madina Mafia.

Until the true nature of the Mafioso Muahammed of "the religion of more than 1.x billion people" is understood, the problem of Islamic terrorism cannot be solved.

Churchill had a tough struggle.

Today we don't have any Churchill. ....Yet.

There is Bush, but he's no Churchill.

187 zulubaby  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 11:01:07pm

Norwegian kafir (#61)

Islam is an Arab Nazi movement disguised as a religion.

You're so right but there's one difference, as someone pointed out, that may make them even more dangerous than the Nazis. The Nazis didn't want to die.

188 gromster  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 11:06:12pm

I found one of the responses to the article more interesting than the article itself:
Moderate Muslims? Let's Not Kid Ourselves - Arthur McNight

189 gromster  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 11:44:36pm

#144 zombie
The gentiles came over to Christianity since it preserved many of their pagan ways of thinking. The purely Jewish aspect of first-generation Christianity could not have been popularized outside the Jewish community.

I don't think the same holds true for Protestants or Baptists. I know that the early Roman Catholic Church was fond of using pagan beliefs and blending them with Christian teachings, though.

190 LotharBot  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 11:46:02pm

#114 Bubble Girl

The Mennonites you know are only a small fraction of the Mennonites out there, and certainly not representative of the movement as a whole. I'm a Mennonite with a degree in computer science and working on my PhD in applied mathematics. I also don't have a beard ;)

Your point is well-taken, though: there are a lot of groups that isolate themselves (including some Mennonite and Amish groups), but the vast majority of them don't wage war against "the infidels".

It's not poverty or isolation or even commitment to religion that drives the jihadis to extremism. It's the fact that they believe in a religion that's really a cover for a violent, archaic cultural / political ideology. They simply can't be both moderate *and* Muslim, because Islam itself is not a moderate thing. I would say that all true Muslims are extremists, by definition of "true Muslim" -- because their book says they have to wipe out the infidels. (On the other hand, all true Jews and Christians are moderates, by definition.)

191 LotharBot  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 11:47:23pm

#144 zombie

send me a link to one of the books and/or papers you've written on the subject. I'm always interested in reading anything written by a good scholar, especially Christian history. Don't worry, I'm not a narc, I won't tell anyone who you are.

192 Uhller Isshaytan  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 11:52:49pm

#187
zulubaby,

I don't quite aggree.

There were fanatic nazis who were prepared to die.

And there are plenty of muslims that are not prepared to die.

Yasser alwayst talked and encouraged martyrdom and was most likely martyred by the aids virus.

Rantissi escaped paradise by jumping out his vehicle during an unsuccessful attempt at sending him there.

Same with the Japanese Kamikazes.

What the muslims do is preach suicide, but always someone else should do it.


The ones that do it, are mostly brainwashed for their mission.


Yassin among all the other thousands have been to Israeli prisons. The fact that they were captured alive makes them bad muslims.

During the Iraq Iran war, prisoners were taken on both sides.

The prisoners in Cuba, and all the surrenders during the Afghan asault.

And there's the great patron and the Mother of All Martyrs, Soddom Who's Sane.

They're willing to become martyrs in words. But "Please go first. After you."

193 Uhller Isshaytan  Tue, Nov 23, 2004 11:57:50pm

#192

Sorry that should have been :

"...........Soddom Who'sane...... enough to surrender."

194 Uhller Isshaytan  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 12:04:28am

#74

Abu Maven,

yet when I voice it to non-LGFers, they think I'm nuts and better yet, an "Islamophobe."


Tell them that Winston Churchill (pbuh) was a Naziphobe, who was proven to be correct.

195 White Dragon  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 12:18:49am

Whatever the Muslim say, we must not trust them as long as they don't deliver their extremist brothers to justice by them self. They hear these guys in the "culture centers", they meet them at fund raisers and they, the Muslim, definitely know what is going on.

Since WW2 it is said that anyone, not actively fighting an oppressive regime, is guilty for its actions.

196 Beagle  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 12:24:45am

This is what we are up against.


Islam makes it a duty upon all Muslims to work to change their countries from Dar al-Kufr to Dar al-Islam, and this can be achieved by establishing the Islamic State i.e. the Khilafah, and by electing a Khaleefah and taking a bay’ah on him that he will rule by the Word of Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Ta’Ala) i.e. he will implement Islamic laws in the country where the Khilafah has been established. Then the Muslims should work with the Khilafah to combine the rest of the Islamic countries with it, hence the countries will become Dar al-Islam and they will then carry Islam to the world through invitation and jihad.


And they call us imperialists.

The Islamic World: Earth to them.

197 Tarheel  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 12:39:15am

#38

This sort of 'fake moderation' makes dialogue almost impossible as we never know who is serious and who is not when it comes to denouncing terrorism.

What else can you expect. The Koran says that it it honorable to lie to dihimmis to further the roptm . This is sooo..evident in the likes of Arafish's sugary statements in english about getting along with Israel and in arabic it was 'kill all the Jews'. Even Hitler was more honest.

'Tis a no-brainer. Ain't no such thing as a moderate muslime as far as I have seen. Although I would like to be proved wrong..............

198 Bubble Girl  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 1:22:38am

#190 Lotharbot

Thanks for your lovely post. The very first time I've talked (indirectly) to a Mennonite and I see them everywhere, you and I could trod the same area and all I know is what I see which is superficial which makes me realize that some of the judgements being placed on Muslims as a whole are based on the actions of a very small fraction yet the whole has been condemned. The Bible is full of useful laws on how to deal with your slaves which is no longer applicable. Perhaps to many Muslims the same holds true. The Muslims I've known were each from a different country but none espoused any kind of hatred for anyone.

To see articles written by Muslims condemning the terrorists is good, I still view the Muslims as the rest of us, some follow the tenets more than others, i.e. Cafeteria Catholics. What is good about this country is that we do have many different religions and still survive and come together as in the case of 9/11. The best source of what the Muslim's think is from the Muslims themselves and who knows, the way the MSM reports the news, anything positive from Muslims could have been downplayed or even omitted by the news agencies. I think I will do some research and go back to 9/11 and see what I kind find in the archives.

Thanks again
Mennonite
When I think of your name it reminds me of the song Do You Come From the Land Down Under - Veggamite Sandwich

199 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 1:37:54am
200 Beagle  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 1:42:04am

#199 bigel

It's embedded with the Fox Report. I thought it was a stand-alone show also. Part II is tonight at seven. But you'll have to sit through basketball brawl, and Scott Peterson's jury eats turkey stories also.

201 Beagle  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 1:46:25am

#198 Bubble Girl

Your first paragraph, though well-intended, is the oldest logical fallacy in the book: jumping to conclusions. What you've gleaned from your lack of contact with Mennonites does not prove anything about Muslims. If you want to build a case on human nature, be careful.

By the way, some Muslim nations still have slavery.

202 The Drizzle  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 1:57:17am

I know how to identify moderate muslims: They're the ones lying still with no pulse. Otherwise, the odds are good that they're fanatics.

203 The Drizzle  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 1:59:15am

By the way, Lynn.Thule, suck my balls you troll fuck.

204 Toby Petzold  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 2:09:55am

Is there any doubt that the black community in America is ill-served by its supposed leaders and spokepeople? Jesse Jackson stumbled into his position of moral authority by default. Al Sharpton? What a damned joke.

The only Muslim leaders that most Americans know are violent thugs. When that community finally finds some truly moderate voices, this society is grown up enough to accept them. I'm sure of that.

205 Rufus Lee King  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 2:25:41am

7 Mich-again

Our best hope for peace is that the moderate Muslims get fed up with the murderous radicals and puke them out like bad mayonaisse.

I won't hold my breath until they puke up Muhammed and the Koran.

I suppose you could call those who presently abstain from taking the lead in violent acts "moderate" as opposed to one whose hands are dripping from just offing a birthday party. But that's about as useful as regarding the family of a Mafia executioner "moderate" toward organized crime. They may not pull the trigger. But they profit as they aid, abet, harbor, and refrain from informing the civil authorities. They won't be "moderating" any of the carnage that advances them and their group.

206 RickZ  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 2:32:53am

# 204 Toby Petzold:

When that community finally finds some truly moderate voices, this society is grown up enough to accept them. I'm sure of that.

I've been thinking about the mythical moderate muslim thing for a while now. I've come to the conclusion that I do not want to hear from moderate muslims. I want to hear from pacifist muslims (yes, I know: {crickets chirping}). It has often been said that many things in life, when done in moderation, is healthy. There is nothing healthy about moderation in jihad.

207 Rufus Lee King  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 2:43:00am

Taking my Mafia family analogy further:

If a nonviolent rebel within a Mafia family wants to drop out or threaten to interfere with the family's security, they face the unpayable price of death and mayhem for not only themselves, but their most dear ones.

The same dynamic in Islam through the doctrine of apostacy is what makes the entirety of Islam a monolithic threat. A rare and extreme situation which justifies, to me, the extreme measure of group incarceration during wartime.

208 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 2:47:24am
210 Earl  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 2:58:29am

#61NK

Absolutely correct.

'Moderate islam" is lapsed islam. Which is apostacy of islam.

Anything else is taqiyyah and kitman.

Frankly, I was surprised at such a naive and credulous piece from Dr. Pipes.

211 Uhller Isshaytan  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:01:01am

A truly moderate Muslim is one who denounces the koran and the Hadith to be Hadath, also denouncing the Beheading Bandito of Badr, Mecca, Medina, and the Kabba .

The fine distinction between Hadith and Hadath

212 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:01:13am

OT

For those Lizards either in academia or going broke sending their children there, Brainwashing 101.

Today, many American college campuses are dominated by the ideology of political correctness. According to the tenets of political correctness, the United States is the source of all the world's troubles, capitalism is evil, and people's biological heritage makes them either "oppressors" or "victims". Political correctness does not tolerate dissent, so students who disagree with the ideology are often punished. Tools like speech codes are used by school administrators to enforce thought conformity. At Cal Poly, one student endured a Kafkaesque disciplinary ordeal that lasted more than a year and ended up in federal court--just for posting a flyer announcing an upcoming event! Welcome to the world of higher education today, where universities seem more intent on teaching students what to think than how to think.
213 scorched earth 138  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:05:39am

I've heard the "Not all Germans were nazis" arguement applied to muslims & this is my take on it:
All believing muslims who can read the koran & comprehend it are nazis, those that are jihadis are their SS.

214 Beagle  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:09:40am

#211 Uhller Isshaytan

You say hadith, I say hadath. Let's call the whole thing off.

215 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:09:54am

OT

My all time favorite economist, Dr. Williams, talks about Condi Rice:

Attacking Condi.

Black people have become Democrats first and whatever else afterward. The Democratic leadership, along with its leftist allies in Hollywood, on college campuses, in labor unions, in the education establishment and in the media, detests President Bush. Too many black people are dependent on the Democrats for handouts and racial preferences. Black politicians depend on the Bush haters for financial resources enabling them to gain office. Black civil rights organizations are beholden to liberal foundations. The bottom line of all of this is that he who pays the piper calls the tune and black people dance along.
The attacks on Dr. Rice and Gen. Powell are the results of one-think where all blacks are to think alike. Any who stray are race traitors. A monopoly on ideas serves no one well and explains why solutions to problems for a large segment of the black community will remain elusive.
216 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:12:20am
217 Roger  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:14:33am

#210 Earl, I think Pipes knows because his first conclusion(note the conclusions are 'ands' not 'ors')

Islamists note the urge to find moderate Muslims and are learning how to fake moderation. Over time, their camouflage will undoubtedly further improve.

Very careful writing by Pipes.

218 Earl  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:14:53am

#135 Lewis

Check your email

219 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:17:06am

Heh, interesting things happening in Europe. The pot is starting to boil!

Europe to the barricades.

Heating the German national broth is the re-emergence of a call for German "Leitkultur," the term for the dominant and guiding culture. Der Speigel quotes Christian Democratic leader Joerg Schoenbohm: "In the Middle Ages, ghettos were founded to marginalize the Jews. Today, some of the foreigners who live with us in Germany have founded their own ghettos because they scorn us Germans. Those who come here have to adopt the German Leitkultur. Our history has developed over a thousand years. We cannot allow that this basis of our commonality be destroyed by foreigners."

Even the Greenies are getting into the action:

Meanwhile, the green/animal rights left of the European spectrum has started demonstrating against the Islamic Eid Al-Adha, or Feast of Sacrifice, because it requires the throat slitting of rams and lambs. Italian police in the town of Luino recently had to break up the left-wing demonstrators as they confronted angry Muslim celebrants who were chanting "Allah u Akhbar" in front of the Luino slaughterhouse.

A sign of hope from our EU allies?

Yes, through the blinding smoke of Iraq and through the endless fuming of M. Chirac, the common people -- the timeless volk -- of Europe are beginning to see their true enemy -- radical Islam. The will to survive and prevail is not yet spent in the hearts of our European cousins. They are late to the battle that is now raging. But they are not too late. The second great anti-fascist Euro-American alliance is now beginning to form on the foundation of our two common democratic peoples. Their spineless governments will follow and will soon be run by fighting leaders uplifted from the ranks.
220 zygazint  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:17:53am

Some time back I posted a link to this;

[Link: www.rb.org.il...]

Dr. Asher Eder and Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi -this article is entitled Peace is Possible Between Ishmael and Israel According to the Qur'an and the Tanach (Bible)

[Link: www.rb.org.il...]

I've been disapointed in the 'moderate' response but find these two scholars genuine. Hopefully, their message will catch on?

221 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:19:01am
222 Mr. Beamish  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:19:33am

Taqqiyah!

/not doing the Pee-Wee Herman dance

223 Earl  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:20:15am

#217 Roger

OK, I'll give Dr. Pipes the benefit of the doubt- maybe even he needed to publish a feel-good, fluff piece. He certainly is well-familiar with taqiyyah and kitman.

224 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:22:32am

#221 American Infidel

And because of that attitude a large portion of the black community will continue to live in the slums selling drugs and living on welfare.

Handouts are better than responsibility, and they don't want responsible successful blacks rubbed in their faces.

225 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:24:24am

I can't decide if Ben Shapiro is making fun of us red-necks, or supporting us!

I'm just an orthodox Jewish hillbilly from Los Angeles

And just like the vast majority of us hillbilly Bush voters, I’m not a racist or a homophobe. I’m not one of the idiot white supremacists from American History X, inaccurately portrayed as Republicans who utter the n-word a good deal. I don’t say ain’t, I shower every day, and I date exclusively outside my family tree.

LOL! Go Ben!

226 Uhller Isshaytan  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:25:51am

Some good advice
.................................................. .......

Everything should be done in moderation.

Eating should not be in excess or too little. But it is good in moderation.

Drinking (non alcoholic) should not be in excess or too little. But it is good in moderation.

Sex? Ditto.

Slashing of throats, beheadings, bombing of infidels should not be in excess or too little. But in moderation, it is just right!

227 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:27:25am
228 Roger  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:31:20am

#42 zombie , islam teaches that Christianity is polytheistic and therefore needs to be wipe out. Also islam is an anti-religion, particularly an anti-Christ religion because of their attempt to wipe out anything in prior scriptures about Christ and their specific statements in the quran stating that Jesus was never crucified and therefore they need not debate the resurrection; just when they are strong enough murder Christians. Islam's problem is that it has in it's quran direct attacks on Judaism and Christianity to the point of death. They claim the Jewish scribes corrupted the original scriptures and wrote in false stuff like the love of G-d and so forth. They particularily wipe out the concept of a loving G-d who cares about people. They claim that would make G-d needy and not a 'deity'. Their mysticism paints a picture of another wanna-be 'deity'.

229 zygazint  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:31:22am

#222 Mr Beamish- LMAO! good link-kinda blows the whole concept of moderate muslim outta the tent!

#221 AI- Never could find a link to that article yesterday. I asked three people who posted it on different sites and noone could find a link, either. Strange. Did you find a link to Dr. Hamid's book??

230 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:33:24am

#227 American Infidel

I had some major problems with a black professor last semester. After hearing him say things like: Bush stole the election, Bush lied to get us in Iraq to steal the oil, the white man stole the jitterbug from the black people and profited off of it, etc....well, you can imagine.

This was a speech class, not polysci. I decided to do a speech on great American speakers and picked Dr. Williams to speak about. In it I pointed out how Dr. Williams grew up in the projects and attained his degrees before the civil rights movement and affirmative action. The prof wasn't too happy with me.

This wasn't the only "fight" I fought in that class. When one student asked for all those who supported the war in Iraq to raise their hands, I was the only one.

It's depressing.

231 Uhller Isshaytan  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:35:57am

#214 Beagle,

I am sorry. I should have included a warning that some people may find this link to contain offensive material.

232 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:37:39am
233 N.A. PALM  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:38:45am

The only good muslim is a dead one?

234 zygazint  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:40:28am

#226

Written over the Temple at Delphi; Nothing in Excess, Know Thyself. The 'everything in moderation' is an abheration, imo, of the first statement. Just sayin.

235 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:41:36am
236 N.A. PALM  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:43:58am

#201 Beagle....I would conjecture that all muslim nations practice slavery..........just took a look at their women and children to see this.

237 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:45:23am
238 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:46:18am

#235 American Infidel

I remember the Donahue show too....learned to fold fitted sheets the correct way from one episode :-)

Handouts do destroy people. Take a look at what UNRWA has done to those people who for generations now have relied on handouts.

Safety/emergency net yes, permanent handouts no.

239 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:53:42am
240 RedWhiteAndJew  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:55:59am

Sorry if this has already been brought up, but I can think of one out a "moderate" muslim (read ex-muslim) has. Since apostasy is a death sentence, an ex-muslim would do well to keep up a facade of continued submission.

There are plenty of Jews in Christians who are such "in name only." I'm not looking to get in to a theological debate. It's a matter of how an individual self-identifies, or in the case of Jewishness, is passed down matrilineally. I have a co-worker who identifies himself as a muslim, but he doesn't bother with keeping halal, nor does he disappear multiple times throughout the workday for prayer. I have expressed strong pro-Zionist views to other co-workers within earshot of this gentleman (not looking for a fight, I'm just not ashamed of my views on the matter), and have never gotten a rise out of the guy. Our work relationship is cordial. In fact, knowing I'm Jewish, he asked me if I enjoyed lamb and middle eastern cuisine. A few days later, he brought in a magnificent feast prepared by his wife.

As far as the existence of a koran-obeying moderate muslim; I don't see how it's possible.

241 [Engineer]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 3:58:26am

#238 Sarah D.

I remember the Donahue show too....learned to fold fitted sheets the correct way from one episode :-)

OK, tell me.

242 Rufus Lee King  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:00:30am

211 Uhller Isshaytan

Is there no part of Muhammed's foul life that hasn't been idolized into some putrid, incoherant ideology?

243 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:00:35am

#239 American Infidel

The way I see it, it is guilt. Dr. Williams has a lot of articles on this subject also.

You see, it's the white mans fault that the black man cannot do better. So, it would be unfair to expect the black man to strive to achieve because the white man has so loaded the playing field against the black man that there is no way he could win. Therefore it is necessary, because the white man is at fault, for the white man to pay up.

It seems obvious to me, but apparently not to the bleeding heart libs, that this is a direct insult to the intellignece and ability of the black community.

The same goes for UNRWA, aid to Africa, etc.

244 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:02:41am
245 [Engineer]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:03:17am

How about this for a definition of a moderate Muslim: A moderate Muslim is one who believes the way to conquer the West is by immigration, not attacks. It's not that he is against using the sword, he just doesn't think it will work. Now the question is: are we will to fight this kind of attack?

246 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:03:59am

#241 [Engineer]

You mean you don't like your sheets all wadded up in a ball? LOL!

247 [Engineer]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:04:04am

Damn "Are we willing"
PIMF

248 LSD  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:06:30am

OT: Forgive if already posted

New Commentary From Anti-CAIR

- CAIR: Calling for Probe of “War Crimes” in Iraq

On November 15, 2004, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) issued a News Release headlined: “CAIR Says Civilians in Fallujah Must Receive Aid”. Subtitled: “Islamic civil rights group calls for probe of alleged war crimes”.

In the news release, CAIR included the following statement:

“…called for an independent probe of allegations by Amnesty International (AI) and human rights experts that both sides in the recent fighting have violated
the rules of war.”

“…that both sides in the recent fighting have violated the rules of war.”? At first reading, it would appear that CAIR is acknowledging that Islamist terrorists may actually be responsible for “war crimes”. If so, this would be a new direction for CAIR, an organization that is very well known for expressing sympathy, if not outright support, for Islamist terrorists and their followers.

However, it was not to be…possible war crimes being committed by Islamist terrorists just doesn’t make an appearance in CAIR’s warped world-view. As is well-known the world over, militant Islamists never commit any terrorist acts and are universally renowned as lovers of peace, freedom, and the right to kill anyone who doesn’t agree with their perverted version of Allah.

CAIR continues:

“Media reports indicate that U.S. troops have blocked aid convoys trying to
reach people trapped in Fallujah and that some military personnel may
have targeted civilians.”

Horrors! US troops are blocking aid convoys! Of course, CAIR simply must protest! However…what if an AID convoy were to be destroyed by terrorist activity on the way into Fallujah? How long would it take for CAIR to condemn the US troops for failing to properly protect the convoy? You see, in CAIR’s world, anything that damages the US war effort is fair game…we will never read a CAIR press release honoring American or coalition forces fighting in Iraq. As for CAIR’s snotty remark “that some military personnel may have targeted civilians”, we wonder just when CAIR will call for the terrorists to wear proper uniforms and fight under recognized rules of war that place civilians out of harms way. Of course, that would make it easier for coalition troops to kill the terrorists…and CAIR wouldn’t want that to happen, would they?

CAIR said:

"We call on American military authorities to do whatever is necessary to ensure that
those supplies reach Iraqi civilians who are suffering and dying today in that city.”

Anti-CAIR agrees with CAIR: US troops should remove the impediments to the safe delivery of humanitarian relief supplies…which they are doing by killing terrorists in large numbers (CAIR must not be watching the news). As soon as the impediments are killed, relief supplies can begin to flow into the city.

…and just why hasn’t CAIR called on the Islamist terrorists to allow aid convoys to pass unmolested?

CAIR continues:

"We call on President Bush, elected officials and all Americans of conscience to
re-think our disastrous policies in Iraq and to recognize that those policies are making
us less safe and less respected as a nation."

Really? Since when has CAIR ever expressed anything but hate and revulsion toward the United States military? Just how many Muslims must American troops save before CAIR stops their Ameriphobic attacks on the US military? …and just how does killing Islamist terrorists make the US less safe? …as for “respect” from foreign nations; since when has US foreign policy been based on “respect”?

…and, in our opinion, excepting personal knowledge and support of Islamist terrorists and Islamist terrorism, just what makes CAIR expert regarding the Iraqi war?

249 scaramouche  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:14:20am

#248 LSD

Speaking of CAIR...

250 Elcid  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:14:52am

gunslingah

Welcome to the keyboard finally...what took you so long..:). Thank you for what you do and what you have accomplished.

There will be islamists in islam, for generations and until saudi arabia, pakistan, egypt, syria, yemen, chad and add to this list as you choose....stop indoctrinating their youth's in madrassas's, stop developing little al-uhver rock-mans, (think hard you'll get that one) that have their youth re enact hostage and beheading films,(clue to al-uvar rock-man) stop fomenting the hate of Jews and everything not 'muslim'. The rest of the world will not be safe, until these generations are modified in thinking or skipped. How they will be modified in thinking or skipped depends on how and when the so called "moderate" 'muslim' wants them to be. And yes you can take that anyway, you want.

In other words...gunslingah, I agree with you totally...today's "moderate" could very well be, tomorrow's "terrorist".

P.S. Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Rod Paige, Alphonso Jackson, Walter Williams, Deroy Murdoch, add to this list as you choose, are American people. These 'people' accomplished their deeds because of their quality, intelligence, drive and inner strength. Just as many American's have regardless of whether they are scholars, plumbers, their profession, business owners, etc., etc.

ted rall, sylvester, (what ever the hell the rest of his name is) zuninga, jesse jackson, al sharpton, add to this list as you choose, are American people. These 'people' have accomplished their deeds because of hate, inequality, lack of USING their intelligence, drive of despise and bitterness as their inner strength. Just as 'some' American's have regardless of whether they are scholars, plumbers, their profession, business owners, etc., etc.

If none of this makes sense...to bad, I just woke up and have yet to have at least 5 cups of caffine....:).

251 Beagle  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:16:19am

#231 Uhller Isshaytan

#214 Beagle,

I am sorry. I should have included a warning that some people may find this link to contain offensive material.


Islamic fart rules? LOL, not offensive.
It's a Fred Astarie song joke "let's call the whole thing off"

You like potato and I like potahto
You like tomato and I like tomahto
Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto.
Let's call the whole thing off


By the way, I'm from the Nine Inch Nails generation.

252 scaramouche  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:17:17am
253 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:19:29am

Morning all, since Charles hasn't opened a new thread so far, how about this - Missions of Mercy, which details just one effort to help Iraqi children who have serious medical conditions. For all of the attention placed on the bad stuff, at this time of year, we should remember that far more good stuff goes unreported.

But no longer, since we can get this news out via the blogs and let people know that things aren't as bad as they seem.

254 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:20:58am

New VDH

Misplaced Metaphors: The conventional wisdom reveals more about us than about Iraq.

A final, darker thought: I don't think when Sherman went into Georgia, or Patton crossed the Rhine, or the Marines hit the caves of Okinawa, our elites warned them — or they would have much cared to hear — "Be careful folks: You break Georgia, Germany, or Japan, you buy it."
255 Mary  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:21:30am

OT
This is a great run down of what transpired in Ivory Coast with regard to the 'alleged' shooting into the crowd by French 'peacekeeping' forces...great run down of how it was reported in the media - no surprises though...
Free Will Blog

256 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:22:28am

#252 and I say, good riddance to bad rubbish. But he shouldn't just go. He should be perp walked for the world to see - this is what happens to someone in a position of power who not only abuses it, but lets millions suffer because of his greed and avarice.

257 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:24:59am

[Engineer] (#245),

How about this for a definition of a moderate Muslim: A moderate Muslim is one who believes the way to conquer the West is by immigration, not attacks. It's not that he is against using the sword, he just doesn't think it will work.

Percicely. I would only add one word.

A moderate Muslim is one who believes the way to conquer the West is by immigration, not attacks. It's not that he is against using the sword, he just doesn't think it will work, yet.

258 W-lover  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:26:03am

Sarah D & AI-

Sorry to butt into your conversation, but I found it so intresting. I believe welfare itself is a hate crime. It is a tool of the dumb-o-crats to keep people down, not to help them out. And then the Dems use blacks for race baiting and class warfare. I'm proud of W for gaining ground in the black vote, and Republicans need to keep working at it.

And Sarah- keep up the good work at school!

259 Intestinal Fortitude  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:28:51am

OT:

Anybody heard what Fox is saying about Eurasia yet; if CAIR complained or threatened them?

260 scaramouche  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:30:29am

#254 Sarah D.

I thought his ending was quite powerful:

Finally, on this Thanksgiving let us remember that, for all their snarls and snipes, the now-freed peoples of France, Germany, Japan, Eastern Europe, Korea, the Balkans, Panama, Grenada, Afghanistan, and Iraq owe a great deal to thousands of dead Americans, too often forgotten, who in awful places like the Hürtgen Forest, Tarawa, Monte Casino, Chosun, Hue, Panama City, Mazar-e-Sharif — and Fallujah — battled and defeated Nazis, militarists, Fascists, Communists, and Dark-Age Islamists so that millions of others might have the freedom that the rest of us lesser folk too often take for granted as our birthright.

#256 lawhawk

I'm sure has salted away plenty of lucre diverted from varioius UN projects to ensure a more than comfortable retirement.

261 lah-dee-dah-dah  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:30:45am

How to identify moderate muslims: they ain't breathin'.

262 scaramouche  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:31:18am

Kofi has plenty salted away. As always, PIMF.

263 scaramouche  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:34:42am

OT - Canada's shame.

I fear it's time for another apology.

264 [Engineer]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:37:10am

#257 Geepers

A moderate Muslim is one who believes the way to conquer the West is by immigration, not attacks. It's not that he is against using the sword, he just doesn't think it will work, yet.

So right you are. Once there is enough of them, the swords will come out as I think Europe is about to learn.

265 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:38:29am

#258 W-lover

I believe welfare itself is a hate crime. It is a tool of the dumb-o-crats to keep people down, not to help them out. And then the Dems use blacks for race baiting and class warfare.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right. Now the question is - are they aware of the damage they are doing? Or are they simply misguided while wallowing in their collective guilt?

[I'll try to keep up the good fight, but it is tiring! Thanks.]

266 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:40:00am
267 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:40:42am

#262 scaramouche - it's still early - grab another coffee, and grab a comfy chair. Count on some juicy tidbit coming out later today, just as folks are leaving the office to begin the annual trek to grandma's house for Turkey Day.

BTW, was anyone surprised at the timing of the Rather 'leaving' news yesterday? Who are the media gurus at CBS news that didn't see to it that it was buried in today's travel stuff, instead of on a day all of its own. No wonder CBS news is so screwed. They can't even bury a story properly.

268 dustyroadguy  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:41:18am

the problem with the notion of 'moderation' in any belief system is that the best result that can be achieved is status quo.....

no cause/doctrine attempting to hold to fundementals is advanced for long lead by moderation because the notion of moderation includes compromise and compromise leads to assimulation and the downplay of difference and ultimate loss of identity........

because mohamadism/islam began as a REJECTION of Judaism and Christianity where would any moderation lead?.......

There are VAST differences in the way Islam vs Judaism/Christianity deal with non-believers.......

Judaism/Christianity use 'shunning' or intellectual/spiritual arguments for persuasion and neither advocate murder as an alternative to conversion......

Judaism is NOT a religion of prostilization; Jews do not actively go out in recruitment of converts as membership is generaly based on ethnic/racial idenity....

Christianity IS a religion of prostilization and actively seeks converts. With very few historical examples to the contrary, converts are not forced to membership but lead to conversion by example, deeds, and study of the relavent scriptures and writings.......

Islam as a rejection of Christianity as a 'polytheistic' religion calls for IT's elimination by any means including force where required........

Islam rejects Judaism as a 'pretender' to IT's claim to 'the promised land' because of Abraham's rejection of Ishmael as his first born........

Couple the desire for Religious Hegemony with Arab Nationalism and you have Arab FACISM

Ban islam/muslimes --NOW--
No compromise, No peace, No moderation.....

269 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:41:59am
270 WriterMom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:43:45am
271 Miss Trixie  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:46:52am

Good morning folks,

Don't know if this has been posted and forgive me if I repeat, but I came across this website quite by accident during my travails.

It's disgusting.

http://www.killhim.nu/

Can anyone notify the proper authorities about this insanity?

272 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:48:58am

[Engineer] (#264),

In fact the swords literally do come out.

As well as the PRGs, mortars, AK-47s and IEDs.

Photos from Fallujah last week.

273 zygazint  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:49:53am

Palestinian Terror On Campus By Lee Kaplan

In an article that appeared on FrontPage about anti-Semitic, pro-terrorist activities on the SFSU campus I reported how Tatiana Menaker was falsely accused by administrators of making “death threats” against an anti-Israel English professor. Menaker had asked the professor – a Jew – if she realized that her Palestinian allies would kill her within an hour of their victory. Menaker was banned for five years from the campus causing her to seek legal help and support outside the campus which resulted in her reinstatement.

The GUPS have been granted a private office in the SFSU student union building for 15 years by the Administration. Other campus groups must rotate their offices because of the lack of space. Even after the violent threats on Jewish students two years ago caused Corrigan to respond by holding back the group’s funding for a year, they never were made to relinquish their office. Their privileged status no doubt is an encouragement to their aggressive agendas.

The situation at San Francisco State University cries out for reform. Unchecked, the forces that the university administration allowed to grow will result in real violence sooner or later. It’s time for Governor Schwarzenegger to convene a commission to look into the situation at San Francisco State.

[Link: frontpagemag.com...]

274 Beagle  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:52:54am

From the news feed:
Iran wants to make some little bitty nuclear bombs for research purposes.

By the way, EU, we will now hadath in your general direction.

275 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:53:12am

OT Observation

Earlier post remarked about the Islamist calls for Calipha. We have seen photos of Canadian Muslims waving posters "we want calipha now."

Now let's assume you could get most Muslim Governments to willingly transfer power to an Islamic super-state (yeah right!) and leaving aside the technical Islamic religious requirements for creating the Caliphate, let's ask the big questions:

- who would be the Caliph? or better still:-Who would the Islamists want as their Caliph. (I think UBL would be everybody's first choice)
The purpose of the Caliphate? Global conquest by any and every means.

Let's not kid ourselves. The people that cannot build a cellphone or an airplane, has movement to aggregate all of their political power and will to subjugate the entire earth to their "perfection."

What an opportunity!

276 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:55:02am

#266 American Infidel:

And here I thought that Memogate was the whole Sandy Berger papers in pants deal. With all these Democratic party inspired -gates, one can't quite keep track of the malfeasance.

Of course, if you have your handy dandy scorecard you could:

Memogate1: Sandy Berger's taking documents from National Archives illegally
Rathergate: Also know in some circles as Memogate2, involved Rather and his DNC cronies in a blatant attempt to hijack the elections.
Liebriberygate: The revelation that the Bill Clinton Prez library was funded with large donations from Saudis, Arab leaders, and Denise Rich in exorbinant amounts (not fully disclosed).
UNSCAM: aka OFF, this involved the biggest heist of funds in world history - $21+ billion (with a b) of monies stolen from the oil for food program at the UN. Everyone from Kofi on down involved. Foreign leaders - Frawnce, Russia, China, all paid off and/or complicit.
UNSCAM2: the continuing coverup of the sexual abuse by high ranking UN officials, as well as the sex abuse of refugees in UN care by peacekeepers.
UNSCAM3 the revelation that emergency sex overrode considerations for the wellbeing of said refugees and UN action to stop violence
Frawncegate: The unilateralisme of the French in Ivory Coast that has led to thousands running for their lives, calls for the US to intervene to stop the violence, and the UN running interference to post facto declare the unilateral action a sanctioned UN operation.

This list is still incomplete, as we're still cataloguing the exploits by Kofi et al.

277 [Engineer]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:56:42am

#271 Miss Trixie

I just emailed that link to Reganite - he has contacts within the USSS.

278 zygazint  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:57:07am

#275

I asked that question yesterday in response to that article. I'm wondering how they attempt to organize without killing each other in the process? Not only are they technilogically dsyfunctional but they can't even agree on disagreeing. It's a wonder the arab/muslims have lasted this long with their penchant for murdering each other let alone the infidels.

279 zygazint  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 4:58:44am

technologically PIMF, NOT

280 manee-man  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:01:03am
281 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:01:25am
282 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:02:08am

Ah, more "neutral" reporting from the NY Times:

"We're absolutely reviled around the world, as we should be," Hedges said. "Our only friends are war criminals" -- a reference, he explained, to Ariel Sharon and Vladimir Putin.

America's amoral, bloodthirsty ways and the hate they generate would be much plainer to the American people, Hedges said, if only so many journalists weren't "trapped" by the government's war clichés and oriented to a Washington-centric view of the world. This group, he said, included his bosses at the Times.

Got that?

According to Mr. Hedges the NY Times isn't anti-American enough.

283 Asher Abrams  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:02:57am

Charles, thanks for posting this great piece. Pipes' own admission of how he was misled is especially valuable.

I believe the world's moderate Muslims have a key role to play, and it is time for them to step forward and shoulder their share of responsibility. As a nitpicky point, though, I wonder if "moderate Muslims" is really the phrase we're looking for. After all, our soon-to-be-ex-Secretary-of-State was invariably described as a "moderate". The folks we really need are those who are as unequivocal and as zealous in their defense of freedom as some of our best leaders and thinkers - Bush, Rice, Miller, Ledeen, Frum; or to put it another way, those who are as fervently committed to preserving freedom as our enemies are committed to destroying it.

284 Bob with one O  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:04:24am

Writermom,
Miss Trixie,

Well you two have been busy as usual. Thanks, more or less.


Beagle,
Ayatollah G,

I think we can count on the 'slims to overplay their hands. These are not patient adversaries.

285 Asher Abrams  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:05:25am
I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!

- Barry Goldwater

286 William Wallace  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:06:16am

Make of it what you will, but I think it might be worthwhile to compare the response of the Hmong community in Wisconsin and Minnnesota to one of theirs committing an atrocity and that of Arab-Americans and Arabs in general.

Part of the problem, of course, is that terrorism is a historical feature of Arab culture.

Anyway, consider the following:

23 Nov 2004 23:20 GMT
Hmong Community Establishes Support Fund for Wisconsin Hunting Victims and Survivors

Donations Can Be Made Through Saint Paul's University Bank

SAINT PAUL, Minn., Nov. 23 /PRNewswire/ -- In response to the shooting incident in northwestern Wisconsin on Sunday, November 21, the Hmong 18 Council in partnership with Hmong community leaders and organizations in the Twin Cities (Minn.) has established a relief fund to show the Hmong community's solidarity and sympathy to the families touched by this tragedy.


"As a community, our hearts go out to the families whose loved ones were wounded or killed during this horrible tragedy," says Vue Chu, spokesman for the Hmong 18 Council, a Saint Paul non-profit organization made up of clan representatives from each of the 18 last names in the Hmong culture. "We want to show our community's support through the establishment of this fund and encourage Minnesota residents, and others across the U.S. to do the same."


Individuals who would like to make a tax-exempt contribution to the "Hmong Community Support Fund for Wisconsin Hunting Victims and Survivors" may send their donations to:


Hmong Community Support Fund for Wisconsin Hunting Victims and Survivors
c/o University Bank
200 University Avenue West
Saint Paul, MN 55103
651-265-5600

The $115 million University Bank was designated a Community Development Financial Institution by the U.S. Treasury in 2001. The CDFI Fund works to expand the capacity of financial institutions to provide capital, credit and financial services in underserved markets. A member of Sunrise Community Banks, University Bank has created the Urban Revitalization Fund to reinvest in local communities through such initiatives as affordable housing support, neighborhood revitalization and small business loans. For more information, or to make a deposit, visit [Link: www.universitybank.com...] or call 651-265-5600.

288 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:08:23am
289 trip  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:08:48am

There is no such thing as a moderate muslim - they are ALL liars and purveyors of filth.

also...her is a good link... [Link: www.anti-cair-net.org...]

290 Roger  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:10:15am

#257 Geepers, Nope, not a good definition. It does not even include separation of church and state.

291 Asher Abrams  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:10:28am

286/ William Wallace,

Very enlightening. A world of difference.

292 Lewis  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:12:51am

#218 Earl

Thanks. I'll check it when I get home.

293 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:13:12am

manee-man (#280),

Boy them British professors sur is smart:

The alleged Zarqawi message "may be the first ray of sunshine we have had out of Iraq,'' said Michael Cox, a terrorism expert at London's School of Economics and associate research fellow at the London-based Chatham House. "It won't solve Iraq's long-term problems but it may indicate that the offensive on Fallujah had some kind of impact,'' Cox said.

It's that kind of decisive and forward thinking that has Britain building their convicted islamists multi-million dollar prison mosques.

294 WriterMom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:21:19am

#271 Miss Trixie

Holy crap! That is a horrendous site. You know who also has contacts-lazytart.

LAZYTART! PAGING LAZYTART!!!

If you see this-look at Miss Trixie's #271.

295 BIG  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:21:56am

OT - Sami AL-Arian update

Sami's trial has been postponed until April of 2005. He filed motions this week wanting all the evidence against him to be thrown out since it infringes on his right to murder innocent women and children.

296 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:25:36am
297 eeevil conservative  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:27:13am

Goooooooood morning LGF!

298 Chicagoray  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:29:20am

After our brave soldiers get done with their work, only the moderate ones will be the few that aren't dead and off to Allah land.

299 Charles  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:29:24am

The tool posting as "lynn.thule" is probably the same person who previously abused LGF as "adam_dc". The IP address traces to the AFL-CIO in Washington DC.

300 greenmamba  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:30:04am
Goooooooood morning LGF!

What's so good about it eeevil?@#$%$
Don't you read the posts, follow the links.

I'm so depressed.

;-)

301 eeevil conservative  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:31:33am

If ya'll are interested, Yesterday and today I posted a two part series which is an essay written by a regular here at LGF called "Why Israel Matters." There are even links leading to pic's by our beloved zombie!

Why Israel Matters

302 Uhller Isshaytan  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:32:17am

#251 Beagle,

re Hadith and Hadath -

So you say "Fat-whah" and I say "Fahrtwhah"

you say "Arrafat" and I say "Arrafaht"

you say "Y'assin' " and I say "yer' ahrsin' "

303 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:35:34am
304 Intestinal Fortitude  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:35:42am

#296 American Infidel

I called Fox last night and they blew me off. Probably try again later.

Eurasiagate continues…

305 eeevil conservative  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:37:12am

greenmamba

Hey! Don't be depressed. You are among friends, together, with Charles leading the march, we have, we are, and we will PREVAIL and make a difference. These things are are not obstacles- they are opportunities for us to unite and fight! Opportunities to be creative and show our strength. I am not a glass half-full kinda gal- My cup runneth over. Once defeated in your heart- the battle is lost! We must stay strong and keep forging ahead!

306 Intestinal Fortitude  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:38:14am

EURABIAGATE....PIMF

307 Asher Abrams  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:38:14am

301/e3vil,

Great post, Sherri!

The "victim mentality" fostered by the thugocracies of the Mideast finds a close ally in the "entitlement mentality" of parts of the Left, I think.

It is precisely the notion of "victimhood" that Zionism rejects: it insists on autonomy and responsibility, WITHOUT wishing to become a new oppressor. That is what the fascists of the world, and their collaborators, fear most.

308 composmentis  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:38:29am

Tony Blankley turns up the heat a little.


[Link: www.townhall.com...]


Even Thomas Friedman is beginning to get the idea.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

309 Roger  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:38:31am

#88 MARS Trucker,

In my view most of the people in islam are kept in the dark and are educated in a closed program if you will. I hear terms such as submission and I am to understand that they are all out clear the world of non-believers.

Kept in the dark from what?

310 [Engineer]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:40:26am

#299 Charles

The tool posting as "lynn.thule" is probably the same person who previously abused LGF as "adam_dc". The IP address traces to the AFL-CIO in Washington DC

He can't spell either: "thule" should be "thug" as in "union thug"

311 eeevil conservative  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:41:39am

Asher-

The "victim mentality" fostered by the thugocracies of the Mideast finds a close ally in the "entitlement mentality" of parts of the Left, I think.
It is precisely the notion of "victimhood" that Zionism rejects: it insists on autonomy and responsibility, WITHOUT wishing to become a new oppressor. That is what the fascists of the world, and their collaborators, fear most.

VERY WELL PUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

312 Buck  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:41:48am

#10 gunslingah


I would desperately like someone to provide me with some firm evidence that would dissuade me of that bleak view.

Boy, did you come to the wrong place!

313 Asher Abrams  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:44:07am

308/composmentis,

WOW!!! I'd thought TLF had jumped ship on the Iraq project. Glad to see I was wrong.

314 BPP  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:44:52am

283 Asher Abrams

The folks we really need are those who are as unequivocal and as zealous in their defense of freedom as some of our best leaders and thinkers - Bush, Rice, Miller, Ledeen, Frum; or to put it another way, those who are as fervently committed to preserving freedom as our enemies are committed to destroying it.

This is a very insightful thought. I think the problem is that there are TOO MANY "moderate" Muslims.

Pipes estimates that about 10-15% of the Muslim world is sympathetic to Islamist thought, which is generally considered to be on the high end of most other people's estimates. But whatever the true number, it's clear that there are a lot of Muslims out there who are not jihadis themselves or even sympathetic to jihadis - they're the Silent Majority of the Muslim world.

But the number of Muslims who actively, zealously and forcefully oppose Islamism is way, way too few. We don't need a silent majority - we need a loud, vocal, active authentically Muslim minority whose defense of freedom, pluralism and openness is as strong-willed as our own.

315 Asher Abrams  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:46:20am

311/e3vil,

Thanks! I'm hoping to post a full length essay to my blog soon.

Oh, and totally O/T: Happy Thanksgiving!

316 Tanker J.D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:46:21am

OT:

Did anyone see Obama on Charlie Rose last night - a little left wing circle jerking; media can't get enough of him. But, he is an impressive figure; he'll do much to the Dems back on their feet, and appealling to middle america...

317 Asher Abrams  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:47:50am

314/BPP,

Exactly!!!

318 'Nam Grunt  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:47:52am

Morning All,

#309 Roger,

The reason they keep their people close is because they don't want them to see what the real world is like, they may start thinking on their own then. I see that is happening now in Iraq, people are tired of the murdering bastards.

319 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:50:50am

Tanker (#314),

Did Obama bring up the fact that his father abandoned he and his mother when he was two? Or that his mother is white?

320 Roger  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:51:07am

#314 BPP, you distinguish between Muslims and Islamists? If so can you explain the distinction?

321 eeevil conservative  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:51:15am

Asher

Can I blogroll YOU???????

322 JohninLondon  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:54:50am

OT

Good article in The Times of London defending the Marines -


[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

In case you can't link, here's the flavour :

November 24, 2004

Let's hear it for the Marines
By Janan Ganesh

THE MOTTO of the US Marine Corps is Semper Fidelis, or “always faithful”. And faith is exactly what the Western media eschew in their relentlessly cynical coverage of the American Armed Forces, which plunged to a new nadir last week with the outrage at a Marine who shot dead an injured and unarmed Fallujah terrorist. Their determination to portray the Americans as trigger-happy louts and the Iraqi terrorists as mere “rebels” slanders the former, sanctifies the latter and betrays everybody who trusts journalists to be objective.
Each American transgression is covered exhaustively and reproachfully, while triumphs, such as the trouble-free elections in Afghanistan and the reconstruction of Iraqi infrastructure, are treated as background noise. The torture of a few dozen prisoners in Abu Ghraib, for example, received far more attention than the restoration of the Marsh Arabs’ homeland.



And this bias predates the Iraq war. If you get your news from Channel 4, you probably believe that the detainees at Guantanamo Bay are wide-eyed young gadflies who were enjoying an innocuous 18-30 holiday in glamorous Tora Bora before being kidnapped by rampaging Navy Seals. The truth is that many are al-Qaeda members who fought coalition forces during the invasion, but whose crimes are too legally vague to guarantee a conviction in court. America is therefore faced with the choice of releasing known enemies or detaining them indefinitely. That they choose the latter is not only sensible but generous — any of history’s previous superpowers, such as Soviet Russia — would have shot them on sight.

......

323 Tanker J.D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:56:27am

#319 Geepers

He did mention that like Tiger Woods, he's not 100% black; but then made some odd mutterings about how's he's still really "black," and how, regardless, white teenagers like to dress like Hip Hop stars, so its all big mish mash anyway. But if it helps him win elections by being a "African-American Democrat" then by gosh, he's not going to protest.

324 eeevil conservative  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:56:44am

wooooops!

Oh, and HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!!

I like your post on Thanksgiving!

I started doing some research on Thanksgiving yesterday, expecting to do some cute little story on Pilgrims, Indians, turkey, and prayer. Instead, I found out some things that will forever change the way we celebrate Thansgiving in our home. I will post it late tonight.

325 Sarah D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:57:55am

#299 Charles

The IP address traces to the AFL-CIO in Washington DC.

The more I think about that, the more interesting it is. Interesting that someone from the AMERICAN Federation of Labor would posit that N. Korea and Iran have every right to nuclear weapons and how dare we big bad 'Mericans say they can't.

I think someone needs to move to N. Korea for a few years, minimum. Wonder how Kim Jong-il would recieve a union thug?

326 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:58:14am

BPP (#314),

it's clear that there are a lot of Muslims out there who are not jihadis themselves or even sympathetic to jihadis -

It's "clear"? Really?

1.2 Billion muslims and we're having a hard time finding one.

It seems what's clear is that the "majority" of muslims have no interest whatsoever in condemning violence committed in the name of allah.

327 Tanker J.D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:01:12am

# 319 Geepers

Anyway, he explained his position on GWII, which, he could truthfully say was consistent (cf. Kerry).

He said he didn't think that the intelligence supported the conclusion that WMD existed (which is suspect, b/c how could a little State legislator have accessed the Intel to begin with, and why would his conclusion trump that of all the Western World's intel agencie), so that he didn't support an invasion.

But: he then invoke Powell's name (and the so-called "Pottery Barn" Rule) to say that once we invaded, we should've done it right, implying the administration cranked that up, too...

Anyway, the Left of center, but not quite moonbat, will eat that up.

328 W-lover  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:01:35am
I am not yet sure what to call the UN fiascos of late...I think something along KOFIGATE or ANANGATE, etc...

AI-

How about (aboot if your Canadian) UNgate, oilgate, worthlessgate, incompetantgate, no-confidencegate.... This is kinda fun!

329 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:05:53am

Tanker (#323),

if it helps him win elections by being a "African-American Democrat" then by gosh, he's not going to protest.

Yeah, that's what I've heard from him so far.

Another Democrat faker.

330 dustyroadguy  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:06:06am

how 'bout embezzel-gate

331 Beagle  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:07:06am

#314 BPP

I agree again. Uh-oh! To bolster your point, Christians distance themselves from the radicals like Phelps or some of the loonier things Pat Robertson has said. This is just rhetoric.

As we are dealing with religious violence, Muslims have an interest in distancing themselves from it. It would be a mistake to confuse patience with infinite patience or pacifism. America angers slowly, erupts, then destroys its enemies. As Europe begins to boil, it's time for Muslims who enjoy living in free societies to make their voices heard. Turning in radicals will prevent the justifiable massive retaliation and suspicion which will come after more large attacks.

332 mad_scientist  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:07:14am

OT:

But there is a kick a** article by VDH today. It tears apart the lefts false war analogies.

333 FabioC.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:07:36am

Reformed Muslims would be a better term, I think.

We need people who not just exercise moderation in some aspects, but who will throw some parts of this ideology out of the window with no regret.

334 mad_scientist  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:07:59am

Hmmmm...not sure what happened with the link in my post above....

335 eeevil conservative  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:08:08am

more like starve people for monaygate (okay a little long, but- hey- I'm a rookie)

336 mad_scientist  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:08:42am
337 W-lover  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:11:05am

Sarah D.-

Now the question is - are they aware of the damage they are doing?

I'm not sure who you mean by "they". I don't think blacks are aware of the damage welfare does to them. The Dems- either they are aware and don't give a damn, or they're oblivious. Either way, the party the blacks vote for are the party that doesn't really care about them.

338 Phillip48  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:12:40am

try $gate

a little shorter

339 metroman  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:12:52am

I like what I am reading these days. It seems that the roots of terrorism are finally being laid at the feet of Arabs where it needs to be addressed and an ensuing repentance embraced by the people that have hate in their hearts.

I will not accept words of moderation. I will not accept simple half hearted excuses and apologies. The movement away from terrorism has to be as fanatical, as extreme, as complete as their move toward terrorism. I cannot see this happening quickly.

Western governments must be vigilant and steadfast. We can never relent, we can never appease, we can never give up, we can never accept partial victory.

And until terrorism is unilaterally abandoned by all of Islam, Islam will continue to be equivalent to terrorism.

340 'Nam Grunt  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:14:32am

Is it just me and my high school education, or does it seem like the terrorists have had some of the wind taken out of their sails with the defeat in Fallujah? I read a lot and everything I'm seeing points to defeatism in the way they spout their BS around the world, just wondering, someone please tell me I'm on the right track.

341 cybermonk  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:15:10am

Report Exposes Name-Changing Hamas Front Group
17:39 Nov 24, '04 / 11 Kislev 5765

The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Center for Special Studies (C.S.S) has released a report exposing a Canadian “charity” as a front organization for the Hamas terror group.


The organization is called IRFAN (International Relief Fund for the Afflicted and Needy, formerly called the Jerusalem Fund for Human Services). According to the report, IRFAN enlists contributions in Canada and transfers the funds to Hamas' civilian infrastructure in the Palestinian Authority-controlled areas.

“Like other Hamas-supporting funds, IRFAN states that its goals are humanitarian and that it was established to ‘cope with the greater demands of the needy in the world’,” says the report. “It obscures the fact that it deals mainly with Palestinian causes, and makes no mention at all of its ties to Hamas. It presents itself (on its Internet site) as working for the needy in many Muslim countries: the Palestinian Authority, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Turkey, Iraq, Albania and Algeria.”

The description is far from accurate – a simple perusal of the group’s website illustrates that nearly all of the funded activity takes place in the PA. “The institutions the Fund supports (and through which it launches its projects) are almost exclusively part of Hamas' civilian infrastructure in the PA-administered territories and of its terrorist-supporting apparatus,” the report says. “It is worthwhile noting that even the Palestinian Authority has identified IRFAN with Hamas.”

According to the report, the donations, which come not only from Canada but from other countries as well, go directly to Hamas, helping it establishing itself as an alternative to the PA and allowing it to maintain and improve operational capability to carry out terror attacks on Jewish targets. As a non-profit organization, the donations it receives are tax-deductible.

During IDF operations against Hamas institutions in Israel, many documents were found regarding the money transferred by IRFAN to Hamas institutions that have been outlawed by
Israel .

An alarming aspect of the report is the fact that IRFAN, which is Arabic for “gratitude,” is simply a new name given to an organization, the Jerusalem Fund, which was already designated as a Hamas-affiliate by the Canadian government, but which is able to continue its nefarious activities unhindered by simply changing its name.

According to the report the Jerusalem Fund for Human Services (JFHS), established in 1991, was a Canadian-based front organization for Hamas, “whose annual support for Hamas institutions in the PA-administered territories was estimated at hundreds of thousands of dollars. The Fund was active until the end of 2001-beginning of 2002, when it changed its name from the Jerusalem Fund to IRFAN…intending to obscure its ties to Hamas and to make it difficult for Canadian law enforcement agencies to act against it.”

Amongst the factors demonstrating that The Jerusalem Fund and IRFAN are one and the same is the fact that the Jerusalem Fund’s office in eastern Jerusalem changed its name to IRFAN - the Jerusalem Office. It operates from the same address, has the same telephone numbers and is headed by the same man, Khaled Abu Kaf, who, the report says, is identified with Hamas.

The tactic of Hamas funds changing their names to make matters difficult for law-enforcement agencies is well known from events in other countries. The report cites the London-based Palestine and Lebanon Relief Fund (PLRF) as one example. PLRF renamed itself Interpal and continues to operate.

342 eeevil conservative  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:16:27am

W-lover

I don't think blacks are aware of the damage welfare does to them. The Dems- either they are aware and don't give a damn, or they're oblivious. Either way, the party the blacks vote for are the party that doesn't really care about them.

The Dem's are PERFECTLY AWARE of what they are doing! It was the Democrats that didn't want to free the slaves- they have just found a new way to enslave them. They do it with propaganda that is utterly LIES!

ANyway- my take on it:

What does Racism have to do with FISHING?

343 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:16:50am

OT:


While some of our students are forced to participate in Muslum Awareness Days or whatever else the lefties can think of in the drive for PC....we get this

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ ID=41623

344 [Engineer]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:16:57am

#336 mad_scientist

Try using the "link" function just above the post window.

345 Miss Trixie  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:17:35am

[Engineer],

Thank you.

*kiss on the cheek*


Good morning WriterMom!

346 Uhller Isshaytan  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:17:39am

Here is what Britannica says about the Holy Pedophile.

Not much better than the praising of Arafat.

Would I be wrong in guessing that Muslims get to write about Pedophilislam?

Instead of telling about his crimes about we get "..evidence that cannot be denied." .......and then buried and pass on to next topic.

.................................................. .............................
CHARACTER AND ACHIEVEMENTS

Although greatly maligned by medieval European scholars--whose opinions still retain some influence--Muhammad came to be
viewed more objectively in the 19th century. Some of the evidence against him, such as his connivance at assassinations and
his approval of the execution of the men of a Jewish clan, are historical matters that cannot be denied.

By his contemporaries, however, Muhammad was admired for his courage, resoluteness, and impartiality, and for a firmness
that was tempered by generosity. He won men's hearts by his personal charm. He was gentle, especially with children.
Though
he was sometimes silent in thought, for the most part he was engaged in purposeful activity. He walked vigorously and spoke
rapidly. He became for later Muslims an exemplar of virtuous character, and stories presented him as realizing the Islamic ideal
of human life.

Muhammad's chief significance is as founder of a state and of a religion. In his lifetime he created a federation of Arab tribes,
which, in less than 20 years after his death, defeated the Byzantine and Persian empires, occupied a vast territory from Libya
to Persia, and then developed into the Arab, or Islamic, Empire. He made the religion of Islam the basis of Arab unity. Islamic
doctrine maintains that God is the founder of the religion, not Muhammad, but the latter played an obviously important part in
fostering the nascent religion. His concern with ultimate questions, his mystical outlook, and his moral seriousness were
important adjuncts to the preaching of the Qur`anic message.

347 eeevil conservative  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:21:44am

cybermonk

Taking down Hamas is going to be REALLY tough. The people in Gaza worship Hamas. THey have done a brilliant job of getting support. While Arafat was stealing money from them, and letting them live in squaller- it was Hamas that was helping with the needs of the people- LOTS of CHARITY work! SO these people think Hamas are like the RED CROSS and UNITED WAY! It is just icing on the cake for them that Hamas actually kills innocent Jews!

GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks!!!

348 mad_scientist  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:22:16am

#344 Engineer

I tried that....have used it before many times and it worked fine, but for some reason this time it is coming out all crazy like that....strange.

349 Roger  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:22:25am

#331 Beagle, Christians returning to the teachings of Jesus compares to Islamists distancing from Mohammed's life and teachings? Can you see at all how ludicrous I find the comparisons of followers of Christ and followers of Mohammed? That the same 'evolutionary/progressive' processes are equally available to Islam as to Christianity? Talk of Reformation/evolution(deep time)? The only way 'Christianit'y could reform is that the teachings of Jesus became known to the common folk causing a movement to do away with politicized Christianity while the same results in jihad in the case of Mohammed.

If you want reform in Islam you need to convince them that the Jewish scribes did not distort the Torah, Psalms and the Gospels(therefore it was necessary all these be corrected and retold by Mohammed) which goes against direct quranic scriptures. That is a hard sell to Muslims.

350 Asher Abrams  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:22:34am

Sherri,

by all means, be my guest. I am honored.

351 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:22:52am

'Nan Grunt (#380),

Remember the failure in Sad'r City? The failure in Mosul? The failure in Fallujah?

This morning I saw where the current operation (5,000 troops strong) is clearing "small towns north of Baghdad".

I assume we'll be reading about the failure of the small towns north of Baghdad any time now.

Pretty soon Iraq won't have any place left for the Marines to "fail". Then what will the press do?

352 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:22:57am

'nam Grunt:

I think you're on the right track. Zarqawi is pissed that the Islamic scholars aren't complaining about the US packing, stacking, and racking terrorists in Fallujah like cordwood. What Zarqawi doesn't quite get is that more and more Iraqis are tired of Zarqawi's antics and don't want anything to do with the terrorists because they've seen what Zarqawi considers to be his contribution to Iraq - the suicide bomber, the car bomb, and death and destruction wherever he and his minions operate. The mullahs themselves are targets for some of the terrorists/insurgents - because they're silent, but that only alienates the terrorists more.

Iraqis are doing more to protect themselves, working with the US and lining up to work for Iraqi security/police forces despite the regular assaults on those facilities, which have killed hundreds. There is some kind of optimism among most Iraqis to continue lining up - they see that there is something positive, whether it's simply to get rid of the US from Iraq, or that they genuinely want to build a consensual government from the ground up.

That the continuing US assault on the Sunni Triangle is being met with next to no outcry from the usual suspects shows that the US is winning the media battle, even in light of the Marine video. Not even that footage got folks into enough of a frenzy to condemn the US efforts - mostly because the efforts appear successful at stemming the insurgency at a nexus of its operations.

353 Westward Ho  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:23:30am

Goddamnit where is Charles

/ Spoilt brat impatient for his daily fix.
/ Lizardoid awaiting his

Muslim

insect meal.

354 TouchDown  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:23:56am
355 FabioC.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:25:00am

Hi Grunt

Well, for a more objective view of the situation in Iraq, Belmont club is the place.

356 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:25:06am

380? 340.

357 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:25:10am
358 LiveFreeOrDie  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:26:40am

I remember listening to Clinton answer press questions; I always felt the answers were not clear enough. They could be parsed different ways, and the press never followed up on them.

Do not trust any Islamic decree against violence that uses the "innocent" adjective without clearly defining it.

I hope I wrong, and I am not advocating any violence against anyone, but I am going to be keeping my eye on the RoP for the rest of my life.

359 Asher Abrams  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:26:43am

MadSci,

Just a wild guess, but your browser may not be putting the cursor at the end of the link after the link is pasted. I know I have to hit "end" to resume typing at the end of the link (rather than in the middle of it).

360 eeevil conservative  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:27:16am

350 Asher

THANKS!!! DONE DEAL!!!!

361 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:28:03am

lawhawk (#352),

Well said.

362 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:28:13am

#354 Touchdown:

Make that UNSCAM4. See my post #276 for the others.

363 Kevin P.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:28:38am
364 composmentis  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:28:51am

#348 Mad Scientist

The link you posted leads to page with Stop sign. There are two highlighted links on that page. I don't know how to link all three. I did follow and they both work.

365 Thom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:32:19am

Although I will be boycotting Fox after this "Eurabia" farce is over, they just had a commercial for Part 2. The nerve!

I"m on the edge of my seat waiting for the next 2 minute installment.

Assholes.

----------

Moderate moslems - assuming they exist - are such an irrelevant minority that all they do is provide cover for the "extremists". Fuck 'em.

366 Tanker J.D.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:33:35am

#353

LOL

Charles needs to feed his followers, or we won't be happy lizardoid minions...

367 eeevil conservative  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:34:33am

363 Kevin P.

WOW! What a woman INDEED!!!!

368 Uhller Isshaytan  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:35:07am

#357

American Infidel,

Yes, but there is no mention if he was gentle with his camels.

369 NY Nana  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:35:53am

#365 Thom

After emailing and calling Fox, I also emailed the correspondent...and get this. Are they (FoxNews) holding him prisoner???

Steve Harrigan's Eurabia series is in 4 parts this week. Part 2 on Sweden airs tonight during the FOX Report at 7 pm ET. I will be posting each part as it airs on Steve's blog, so if you miss one you can check back here.

Thanks for writing and tuning in!

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Kathleen
FOXNews.com Blog Producer

Nu?

370 'Nam Grunt  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:38:00am

#351 Geepers,

That was kind of my point, I believe as most on here do that the MSM has hamstrung our efforts in Iraq, just because they are moonbats that hate Dubya!

#352 lawhawk,

Thanks for the great response my man, that is exactly why I'm on the same page as you are when you post buddy.

#355 FabioC.

Yes sir I have that site bookmarked, thanks.

371 Thom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:39:32am

#369 NY Nana

Thanks for writing and tuning in!

Yeah. Enjoy it while it lasts ...

8 students slashed in Lalparaiso, Indiana!!! Nothing like a local story elevated to national "significance".

And now - some more about that Vai Chang whatever guy!!!

And now - the BTK strangler!!!!!

Fox blows.

372 American Infidel[deleted]  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:39:38am
373 Thom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:46:55am

Turket Travel Tips!!!!

Absolutely must-see journalism at its finest for anyone who has never traveled on the day before Thanksgiving...

Which is NOBODY.

374 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:50:12am

More failures:

New Coalition Offensive Leads to Arrest of Dozens of Insurgents in Iraq

The latest operation began with troops, backed by helicopters and jet fighters, pouring into an area known as the "Triangle of Death."

British and American forces worked to seal off potential escape routes, while Iraqi forces work to hunt down insurgents. An interior ministry official says the latest raids were in areas that had previously not seen a military presence. He says it is believed many insurgents from Fallujah had moved into small towns south of Baghdad. He says the latest operation is part of a larger plan to move through the entire Sunni Triangle, in an effort to root out insurgents and crush the violence.

When are our troops going to realize they're bogged down in a bloody quagmire and to quit going on the offensive.

375 Thom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:50:52am

Hmm ... I see I'm typo-prone today.

Make that Turkey Travel Tips...

376 Rock the Casbah  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:51:55am

Rock the Casbah before the Casbah Rocks Us

377 Thom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:52:28am

And Valparaiso...

On Now - Top 10 Action DVDs!!!!!

Idiots.

378 Thom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:56:30am

Court Trial for Sheryl Crow's Alleged Stalker Stalled!!!!

Man, what would I do w/out Fox?!

379 Uhller Isshaytan  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:56:38am

If this is not MODERATION then I don't know what is.
.............................................


Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 4, Number 149:
Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet said to his wives, "You are allowed to go out to answer the call of nature. "


[Link: www.usc.edu...]

380 Jayce  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:57:04am

The URL for the Council on Foreign Relations is: [Link: www.cfr.org...]
The URL for the Trilateral Commission is: [Link: www.trilateral.org...]

Daniel Pipes is a member of the CFR, not necessarily a bad thing, but it has an agenda of a New World Order which, IMO, colors what he reports. Here are some other members, taken from its 2001 list.


Madelin Albright, Zbigniew Brzeinski, Tom Brokaw, James E. Carter, Dick Cheney, Dick Clark, Bill Clinton, Daniel Elsberg, Gerald Ford, Barney Frank, Ruth Ginsburg (Supreme Ct.-Clinton), Allen Greenspan, Najeeb Halaby, Teresa Heinz, Jesse Jackson, Jim Lehrer (PBS), Bernard Kalb, John F. Kerry, Henry Kissinger, Charles Krauthammer, Joe Lieberman, John McCain, Robert McFarlane, George McGovern, Robert McNamara (World Bank head), Daniel Moynihan, Walter Mondale, John Negropost (US Ambass. to UN), Daniel Pipes, Dan Rather, Charles Redman, Condoleeza Rice, 4 Rockfellers (David-founder Trilateral C), Edward Said mhmbbo, Diane Sawyer (ABC), Robert Seamans, Brent Scowcroft, Daniel Shorr (NPR), George Shultz, George and Paul Soros, George Tenet (CIA), Cyrus Vance, Paul Volker (Dir: Tri.C, CFR, Bilderbergs), Barbara Walters, Antony and Keith Wallton (Wal-Mart), William Webster (CIA, FBI, Homeland Sec.), Casper Weinberger, Togo West (Dept. of Vet.Affairs), James Wofensohn (Int'l Monetary Fund), James Woolsey.

381 'Nam Grunt  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 7:02:38am

If MO is nothing but a rock now, that the islamonazis worship, then maybe I can sell them rocks that I gather from the Sabine River in Texas for $4 a pop, hey it worked for the moonbats in the 80's with the "pet rock" craze......just sayin'. If it works I'll take all of you to Maui for a week of "Good Times".

382 FabioC.  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 7:08:43am

#370 'Nam Grunt

I should have guessed you already knew of Wretchard...

383 Roger  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 7:11:00am

#372 American Infidel, I know you guys are letting off steam but every time I read:

Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought in while the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”

I get chilled by the description of a innocent little girl taken from childhood;playing on a swing. There is another Hadith that states that Mohammed only got 'devine inspiration' while he was 'under' Aisha's blanket, not the others:

Bukhari:V5B57N119 “The people used to send presents to the Prophet on the day of Aisha’s turn [to have sex with him]. Aisha said, ‘His other wives gathered in the apartment of Um Salama and said, “Um, the people send presents on the day of Aisha’s turn and we too, love the good presents just as much as she does. You should tell Allah’s Apostle to order the people to send their presents to him regardless of whose turn it may be.” Um repeated that to the Prophet and he turned away from her. When the Prophet returned to Um, she repeated the request again. The Prophet again turned away. After the third time, the Prophet said, “Um, don’t trouble me by harming Aisha, for by Allah, the Divine Inspiration [Qur’an surahs] never came to me while I was under the blanket of any woman among you except her.”’”

I wonder about his 'source' of inspiration.

384 'Nam Grunt  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 7:11:27am

#352 FabioC.

Yes sir I do. BTW how are you long time no see, I should have sent you an e-mail sorry, hope you have a GREAT Thanksgiving, as I wish for all of you good people.

385 Cousin Dave  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 7:15:16am

#80 EE:

First of all, the substance of these statements stands against what some apologists for Islam in the West have been saying. There is a real problem in Islam, in that it has been too susceptible to terrorism, compared to the generally lesser susceptibility of non-Muslims to terrorism in this 21st century.

Here is what I see as the two great "brokes" of Islam as a philosophy, as it is practiced today:

1. It preaches submission, not understanding, as the goal of the believer. The two things are fundementally incompatible. Judaism and Christianity both teach that the believer is to work towards an understanding of God (by whatever name He is called) and seek to live according to the understood principles. It puts the onus on the believer to truly understand the meaning behind the moral, rather than just go through the motions. Islam, on the other hand, teaches that Allah is incomprehensible to the believer and that to even attempt to understand Allah is blasphemy. The believer must blindly submit to Allah (or, in practice, to those who represent themselves as being Allah's representatives on Earth). Attempting to understand is, by definition, defiance of Allah's will. Therefore, the very reason for thought in the first place is stripped from the believer. At this point further philosophising becomes pointless, because the beleiver may not participate and still be a believer. This is fundementally incompatible with the demands of participatory democracy. Conclusion: An Islamic democracy cannot exist, because its citizens would be barred by the religion from carrying out their duties as citizens.

2. Islam may (and often does) impose a very strict regime on the believer, in pursuit of various spiritual goals. However, the first principle ofin modern Islam is to spread Islam by any means at hand; all other principles take a back seat to this one. (The Koran may or may not actually say this; I don't know enough about it to say, but I claim it is inarguable that this is the way the religion is practiced today.) Thus, all of the lofty spritual goals proclaimed by Islam are subservient to the one goal of propagating its own existence. That isn't a religion, that's a virus. Islam, no matter how strict, instantly transforms into complete libertine-ism so long as the person involved is evangelizing. Once engaged in this pursuit, Katy-bar-the-door: Pious fighters may drink alcohol, engage the services of prostitutes, kill children indiscriminately, etc., as long as they are "fighting the good fight". Women who have spent their entire lives in the hijab suddenly have permission to don streetwalker gear, as long as they are doing it to harm an infidel. Lifelong friends may be abused and trusts broken. Absolutely anything goes. Thus, the importance of the religion's spirituality is belittled by its own First Principle. Message to the believer: Despite all of our pious words, nothing really matters as long as you join the right party; we just say those things to keep the rubes in line. Islam as postmodern nihlism. I don't think I need to spell out the consequences for anyone who truly wants to believe and live the proper life. Christianity certainly has its holy rollers, but Islam is the only religion I've ever heard of that grants its followers this kind of blanket moral amnesty as long as they act in service to the religion. It seems to be built-in.

Until these two things are fixed, I don't see Islam ever becoming coherent enough as a philosophy to be able to fufill its responsibilities as a major religion. It's just too irrational and self-contradictory to exist in a rational universe, and it bars its believers from participating in their own governance, a basic incompatibility with democracy. It will take something as significant as the Reformation to fix it. That could happen, but right now I don't see many signs that it will happen in my lifetime.

386 NY Nana  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 7:15:32am

#371 Thom

I jsut checked the website: Eurabia

There is a video clip...I have a feeling it will just be the same old, same old, although the network certainly heard from the LGFers!

Got to go back to the kitchen and cook....aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

387 Roger  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 7:17:08am

#378 Thom, STEP AWAY from the TV! Turn 180 degrees. Click the off button on the remote. Whew! that was close. You can thank LGF anytime:-)

388 Grandma  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 7:18:13am

Thank you, zombie, #62 for your ability to phrase what I have not been able to.

Before 9/11 I didn’t know much about Islam except what I heard about its being one of the “world’s great religions”. After 9/11, I made it my business to learn more. My knowledge about the other two religions that originated in the Middle East also is not vast. What I have learned, however, is that Judaism and Christianity have gone through terrible, violent and misguided periods in their respective histories to evolve into viable faiths. It also seems that those two religions are still actively working on promoting that which is basically good in individuals and encouraging the followers to buy into the joy of life and that of their fellow man through their good works and a belief in a G_d who is their personal salvation.

I cannot find anything in Islam that encourages me to believe that this “religion” has the foundations to evolve into a faith that will be beneficial to anyone, except maybe for those who hold power over their minions. It’s a clever “religion”; its tenets manipulate every rotten quality in humans so that those who seek worldly power can attain it over those who truly cannot separate good from evil. Defining Islam as a legitimate ‘religion” is part of the problem. I do not advocate the destruction of the people who have been misguided by Islam’s false beliefs. Rather I advocate the destruction of the beliefs themselves. In our Western societies it is anathema for us (P.C. and all that crap) to destroy that which cloaks itself as a “religion”. But debunking Islam as a religion needs to be done real soon.

Had slavery, Nazism, Communism, the KKK, the Mafia, etc., been given the legitimacy of the label “religion” it would have been more difficult for decent people to attempt to destroy it. Even though some of those institutions have tried to cover themselves with religious, nationalistic, cultural or “justice” ideals, they continue to be discredited. We see the same situation today with the urban gang drug culture; people who try to identify with part of the “culture” don’t see the self-serving, power-wielding, for-profit-only aspect of the underlying agenda of those controlling it and how it uses them.

So where does that leave us now? I, for one, have hope. It took our nation decades to purge ourselves of the institution of black slavery. It took our government years to get organized crime on the run. It took many years and countless lives of our servicemen and women to destroy the German Nazism. Communism has almost defeated itself because it was just a “dog that don’t hunt”; There are still pockets of Communist personality-idol resistance left (North Korea, Cuba, etc.), but they are so isolated that their eventual collapse is inevitable. Will there be bloodshed and violence and injustice in the process of their elimination? Probably.

If my calculations are correct, I’m probably in the last years/decades of my life. I do not expect to see Islam defeated in my lifetime. But I am encouraged as never before, in just these past few short years by people here at LGF, that the pendulum is swinging. I pray every night to my Almighty Creator, not necessarily for my own personal benefit, but for Him to guide those that come after me to carry on the destruction of Islam and to enlighten those who believe that Islam is from G_d to realize that it is from the one who would destroy Him.

My wishes for all those at LGF, and Charles, for a happy Thanksgiving holiday. Remember to give thanks for all those good things that you forgot to ask for but happened to you anyhow.

389 'Nam Grunt  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 7:21:17am

#385 cousin dave,

Kind of like the Mafia, huh?

390 remay1  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 8:40:20am

A "moderate Muslim" can be very simply defined as a Muslim who doesn't have a testimony of the Koran. Moderate Muslims, if they exist, are a lot like secular Jews -Muslim in tradition only.

I remain hopeful, but at the same time sanguine, about the number and the influence of these so-called moderates to mitigate the avowed goals and purposes of the mainstream Muslims.

Make no mistake about it. Mainstream Muslims, the world over, want you and me to either convert, or to die. Only such a sober, clear-eyed position is reasonable since they are either taking a direct role in the terrorism directed against us, or they are complicit in the terrorism by their lack of action to put a stop to it.

Until and unless actual actions are take by the mainstream Muslims against the terrorists, I'm afraid I will remain unconvinced by their mere words.

391 EE  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 8:47:48am

#385 Cousin Dave
"all of the lofty spritual goals proclaimed by Islam are subservient to the one goal of propagating its own existence. That isn't a religion, that's a virus."

That's a new and potent way of viewing militant Islam.

There are some folks, though, who hope that a personal, non-political, version of Islam will develop. That includes some Muslims who hope this will happen, such as Salim Mansur.

392 Cousin Dave  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 8:48:12am

#389 nam grunt:

Kind of like the Mafia, huh?

Actually, after I posted that, I go to thinking:

1. Requires absolute, unthinking obedience. Condemms anyone who wanders off the reservation.

2. Gives itself permission to do whatever the hell it wants in the name of its cause.

Describes today's Democratic Party pretty well, doesn't it? And this in a nutshell is why libs are so sweet on Islam.

393 Cousin Dave  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 8:50:17am

#391 EE:

There are some folks, though, who hope that a personal, non-political, version of Islam will develop. That includes some Muslims who hope this will happen, such as Salim Mansur.

I hope so too. But there's so much that has to be done, and I don't know if people like Mansur can get enough traction to accomplish anything before it's too late (or before the goons catch up to him).

394 EE  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 8:57:43am

#393 Cousin Dave
Good point.

Regarding Salim Mansur, here is a good article by him on this very topic of hoping that Islam can be a personal faith, rather than what the movers and shakers of Islam are making it, a very political movement. A militant ideology. Or, as you excellently point out, a virus.
Here's Mansur...
[Link: www.paktoday.com...]

395 Thom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 9:17:18am

islam - all of it - is the problem.

But look what happens when someone tries to point that out:

There are some folks, though, who hope that a personal, non-political, version of Islam will develop. That includes some Muslims who hope this will happen, such as Salim Mansur.

And voila! topic changed.

"Moderate" moslems - assuming they exist - wittingly or nor provide cover for the islamic invasion. Focusing on them and/or exchanging anecdotes about "some wonderful moslems I know" plays right into the "extremist" (read: mainstream) agenda.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but all this talk about "moderate moslems" is pointless, enervating intellectual masturbation.

396 Earl  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 10:23:24am

#385 Cousin Dave

However, the first principle ofin modern Islam is to spread Islam by any means at hand; all other principles take a back seat to this one. (The Koran may or may not actually say this; I don't know enough about it to say, but I claim it is inarguable that this is the way the religion is practiced today.)

Surahs 9:5 (The Verse of the Sword) and 9:29, :30, among numerous other surahs. The islamists don't have to fabricate these edicts- mohammed fabricated them 14 centuries ago.

397 Rufus Lee King  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 10:36:18am

274 Beagle

Iran wants to make some little bitty nuclear bombs for research purposes.

We all know Islam's reputation for unswerving inquiry into the scientific truths of the world.

398 Rufus Lee King  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 10:53:48am

383 Roger

I was then brought in while the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”

Slam-o-gram from Da Messenger.

399 Havoc  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 11:12:27am

#383 Roger

Yup, a land pirate gone dealth cult leader.

Just another case of bamboozling the suckers to get at their 9 year old daughters.

Janet Reno -- 1600 years too late to do any real good in this world.

400 EE  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 11:42:48am

We are engaged in various wars against the militant Islamist enemies of western civilization: real military war; criminal-justice war; economic war; and political war.

In a political war, it is just common sense that you want to have as many people on your side as possible. Often that means trying to appeal to someone near the center of gravity of the target audience, and avoiding extremes. But regardless of the method, it usually means an attempt to appeal to many people.

Those who deny that moderate Muslims exist are closing their eyes to reality. And they are also doing damage to the political war. If they try to make this resistance to the militant Islamist enemies of western civilization into a general crusade against Islam in general, they run the risk of alienating lots of people who could be joining the political battle.

Having moderate Muslims on our side gives legitimacy to the political war. And that legitimacy should attract more people.

But there is another reason for not rejecting moderate Muslims, and for not making this resistance to militant Islam a general crusade against Islam in general. With our own tradition of not warring against a religion, it would be difficult for us to wage such a war in opposition to our tradition.

I think that what Daniel Pipes does, aiming to strike some sort of balance, is a better approach than going to an extreme -- in either direction. It aims more closely at the truth of the matter. And it helps a lot in the political war that has to be fought.

401 Thom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 11:47:02am

LOL. Perfect example.

In the meantime, while we masturbate ...

402 remay1  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 11:52:41am

400


Those who deny that moderate Muslims exist are closing their eyes to reality. And they are also doing damage to the political war. If they try to make this resistance to the militant Islamist enemies of western civilization into a general crusade against Islam in general, they run the risk of alienating lots of people who could be joining the political battle.


Sorry. I see very little evidence that "moderate Muslims" exist. If you judge people by their actions and not just their words, there really isn't any evidence. I would like to see Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and several other "moderate" Muslim countries rounding up their home-grown terrorists and eliminating them. Instead, they talk one way when the are talking to our diplomats, and quite another way when they are talking in Arabic and are talking to their domestic audience.

President Bush has made it clear that you are either going to be with us or against us. In my opinion, most Moslem countries have chosen to be with the terrorists -at least by the evidence of their actions.

403 remay1  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 11:52:48am

400


Those who deny that moderate Muslims exist are closing their eyes to reality. And they are also doing damage to the political war. If they try to make this resistance to the militant Islamist enemies of western civilization into a general crusade against Islam in general, they run the risk of alienating lots of people who could be joining the political battle.


Sorry. I see very little evidence that "moderate Muslims" exist. If you judge people by their actions and not just their words, there really isn't any evidence. I would like to see Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and several other "moderate" Muslim countries rounding up their home-grown terrorists and eliminating them. Instead, they talk one way when the are talking to our diplomats, and quite another way when they are talking in Arabic and are talking to their domestic audience.

President Bush has made it clear that you are either going to be with us or against us. In my opinion, most Moslem countries have chosen to be with the terrorists -at least by the evidence of their actions.

404 Bubble Girl  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 11:52:56am

#210

Oh thanks for the warning -

Your first paragraph, though well-intended, is the oldest logical fallacy in the book: jumping to conclusions. What you've gleaned from your lack of contact with Mennonites does not prove anything about Muslims. If you want to build a case on human nature, be careful.

Let's see, just over two years ago I was in Bali with close friends from AU that I hadn't seen in a couple of years. The time before that, we stayed two weeks in Indonesia at several different beach resorts, you may have seen one of them, it was used for a Survivor series.

We stayed a week in Bangkok, another time in Hong Kong. Two of my dear AU friends died in Bali from the bomb set off by
the group, Jemaah Islamiah, at Paddy's, a club down at Kuta beach. I had had too much sun and was back at our rented beach house. Even so a bright light and horrific blast shook the place. From the deck I could see fire where Paddy's was, I ran down to Paddy's where bodies were laid out along the beach.

I've seen dead and dying people before, I was an ER Physician for several years working in major trauma unit but Bali was a nightmare, a waking nightmare in the sheer numbers of dead and severly injured. The reaction in AU was total shock too, that is why the Australians have been so fiercely behind the war on terror.

The locals in Bali were very kind to the survivors but not set up for such a catastrophic event, three other friends survived with slight injuries.

There are 3.2 billion muslims across the world. They weren't dancing in the streets in Bali the next day either. Many Muslims working at Paddy's were killed or injured along with the Westerners.

So 210 perhaps it is you who have jumped to conclusions, just because I haven't mixed it up with the Mennonites doesn't mean I don't get out into the "real world."

Oh yeah, look at Gunslinger, he says he works for the gov and goes overseas to where large populations of Muslims are and has Muslims friends, yet he still doesn't know what to think about them?

From working in the ER you should still watch out here in the US, I've treated too many gun shot and stab wounds, beatings, you name it.

405 Thom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 11:59:10am

EE -

The point that you consistently miss is that islam is winning the political war while you and Pipes prattle on about "moderate moslems".

Perhaps in the long run (decades from now) they'll amount to something, but they are absolutely irrelevant to the near-term crisis that is looming.

Absolutely irrelevant. Or, if not irrelevant, knowingly or not providing cover for islamic expansionism.

406 Bubble Girl  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 12:05:44pm

Excellent post -EE

There are 3 billion Muslims......... not all are extremists but may become so if people keep threatening to get rid of all of them, that all of them are bad. There are Muslims in our military over in Iraq risking their lives, what about them?

407 Thom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 12:08:48pm

#406 Bubble Girl

They should be discharged.

And there are 1.2 billion or so moslems, not 3 billion.

408 Geepers  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 12:12:05pm

Bubble Girl (#406),

There aren't 3 billion muslims.

They like to scare people with fictitious big numbers.

409 remay1  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 12:22:40pm

#406 Bubble Girl

There are 3 billion Muslims......... not all are extremists but may become so if people keep threatening to get rid of all of them, that all of them are bad. There are Muslims in our military over in Iraq risking their lives, what about them?

Sorry, there are not 3 billion Muslims. Even the pro-Muslim CAIR doesn't claim more than 1.5 billion. In reality, there are probably many, many less truly committed, Koran believing Muslims.

The claim that we all must walk on egg shells to avoid upseting Muslims and possibly thereby driving them into the radical wing is fatuous. It's called apeasement. It didn't work for Chamberlain against Hitler. It won't work against Muslim terrorists.

We must identify, locate and kill all Muslim terrorists. If other Muslims decide to join with the terrorists because we do that, we must eliminate them as well.

It's a tough world out there. The sooner we figure that out, the better off we'll be.

410 Roger  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 12:23:15pm

#406 Bubble Girl, or they can decide that they are not chosen by allah to believe and practice the following:

Qur’an 17:7 “We shall rouse Our (Muslim) slaves to shame and ravage you (Jews), disfiguring your faces. They will enter the Temple as before and destroy, laying to waste all that they conquer.”
Qur’an 2:109 “Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you [Muslim] (people) back to infidelity after you have believed [submitted], through selfish envy, even after the Truth has become manifest to them. Indulge them until Allah issues his orders.”
Qur’an 33:26 “Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before.” [Version two:] “And He drove the People of the Scripture down from their homes and cast panic into their hearts. Some you killed, and you made some captive. And He caused you to inherit their farms, houses, wealth, and land you have not trodden.”

If they believe these they are Muslims.

411 Rufus Lee King  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 12:23:51pm

406 Bubble Girl

There are 3 billion Muslims......... not all are extremists but may become so if people keep threatening to get rid of all of them, that all of them are bad. There are Muslims in our military over in Iraq risking their lives, what about them?

They have always vowed to kill us. Only recently have they had access to modern transport, communictions and weaponry to make a truly unmistakable attempt at succeeding.

The ones capable of helping us fight this war Muslims have long ago declared and prosecuted on us should certainly be allowed to help us, to the beneift of their staying free. But since every Muslim follows the Koran, by definition, its promise to commit the world's greatest genocide ever against the majority of the planet including us, which we see moving daily toward fruition, has to be taken at its word.

If we really care about peace and tolerance we need to incapacitate our declared enemies of all nonIslamic religion and life. Those who won't come over to our side in a very concrete way need to be dealt with before they play their soon arriving WMD-bolstered hand.

Wartime mass internment seems the most reasonable way to me to neutralize our internal domestic threat. And preemptive wars externally are obviously required.

412 Bubble Girl  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 1:13:34pm

Okay boys,

So there's only 1 Billion Muslims.

Rufus Lee King - You think Wartime Mass internment for Muslims here, and what about when they get out or do they? Are they just interned forever? Is this war time now?

Thom wants to discharge them. Okay, go ahead, implement the plan, my man. One billion is a big bunch of people to have to eliminate, where will you dispose of them? Mass mass graves?

Roger - more feasable plan

Since I am not in charge of what to do with the Muslims I'll refrain from making suggestions, you guys have it covered.

By the way, I could kill the ones who planted the bomb at Paddy's all by myself, without flinching or regret, and all the other terror freaks out there, without one single moment of compassion for their pathetic little lives.

413 Thom  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 1:16:28pm

#412 Bubble Girl

I was talking about discharging them from the military, ya nit ...

414 Roger  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 1:25:53pm

#412 Bubble Girl, No there are over 1.5 billion. [Link: www.icq.com...]

And getting them to quit believing the verses posted in 410 is not feasible either; there is just too many and there are forces greater than speech that bind them. Staring into the face of truth can be a real jolt. If you take the time to really know what Islam is, then you face an inevitable reality check and it isn't pretty.

415 Rufus Lee King  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 1:51:31pm

412 Bubble Girl

You think Wartime Mass internment for Muslims here, and what about when they get out or do they? Are they just interned forever? Is this war time now?

They, like the Japanese we interned in WWII, get out at the duration of the hostilities, as the Geneva Convention provides. Forever? Who are we to say how long their madness will endure?

Will they be pissed? The Japanese were a bit. The Muslims are always pissed. They are commanded to stay pissed. But if we can preempts their capability to domestically assist the jihad to make good on the Hiroshima-like attacks on our cities Bin Laden has promised and is showing every effort to fulfill, it would be completely justified and as Constitutional as the Supreme Court held the WWII internments to be. Even more so, here, where every single Muslim has a connection of CHOICE to the death plans their chosen Koran spells out for us.

Bin Laden and countless other high representatives of Islam have indeed declared war on us. We were attacked Pearl Harbor style. Bush declared war back on the terrorists.

If we don't really fight back until after taking devastating nuclear or WMD strikes, we are to be loathed by our progeny. As we will always be loathed by Islam.

416 EE  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 5:51:30pm

#406 Bubble Girl
Thanks

417 EE  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 6:13:51pm

#405 Thom
The moderate Muslims are not valued for their power at this time. Frankly they lack any significant power at this time. They are valued for the legitimacy that they provide to our cause.

There is some hope of attracting more people to the cause of resisting militant Islam.

I would be opposed to attracting more people to our cause if do do so we had to do things that were immoral, or costly in blood and treasure. But what exactly do we lose by giving moral support to the moderate Muslims? I cannot see that we are paying any price for doing so, and if there is something to be gained -- legitimacy in the eyes of others that we want to attract to our cause -- why not?

This doesn't mean ignoring what the jihadi terrorists and their supporters are doing. This doesn't mean ignoring the faults and depravities of mainstream Islam.

This doesn't even mean refusing to resist the dawa efforts of the militant Islamists (even if such resistance might offend some of our moderate Muslim allies) -- we don't have to cede the field to anybody.

I am saying that we should accept the legitimacy that comes from including moderate Muslims in the ranks of those resisting militant Islam. As part of our national policy.

But I also appreciate and support the right of individuals to fight this war with whatever motivation they please. And that includes the right of any of our generals to do that also, in their own name and not in the name of the armed forces.

As a national policy, though, it needs to be clear to the world that this is not a crusade against Islam. Just as the president and his cabinet members have said.

As Condi Rice has said, we are at war with an ideology of hate. I would leave it at that.

418 Bubble Girl  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 9:28:12pm

Sorry Thom to have misunderstood, the range of how to handle the Muslims on this thread has been rather broad.

I like your proposal, it makes good sense. And, yes, I am a nit :)

419 Bubble Girl  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 9:40:08pm

Rufus, I agree, we were attacked, Bin Laden openly declared war on us during the Clinton Admin, which showed how inept the CIA was, how Clinton kept his fingers crossed that it wouldn't happen on his watch. How he could have accepted the offer of Bin Laden but refused. I agree we are at war with an enemy that wants us annihilated. I also agree with EE, so I'll leave it there. You make very valid points.

Roger, I agree with you too. Islam is fundamentally a perversion of religion, a subversion of freedom. The ones who use Islam to commit heinous crimes or control a group should go, no question about it.

420 Aisha  Wed, Nov 24, 2004 11:44:39pm
I wonder about his 'source' of inspiration.

Take a look under my burkha and wonder no more!

421 Rufus Lee King  Thu, Nov 25, 2004 12:48:30am

417 EE

As a national policy, though, it needs to be clear to the world that this is not a crusade against Islam. Just as the president and his cabinet members have said.

Whatever the Bush administration's heart of hearts about Islam, it is true that to not declare war on it, keeping it just to the terrorist component, appeals to the stability of the status quo of our current alliances with so-called moderate Islamic states and their supporters.

The problem is that the terror component of Islam fully encompasses Muhammed and the Koran. It is not isolated, albeit it is dormant in many Muslims. As sleeper cells are lethally dormant until the moment of advantage. And it may be true that many Muslims are asleep by choice to the spelled out mandates of Islamic butchery. But when they awake, they will be in no position to resist it, so they will acquiese to it.

The emergency of it is that no so-called moderate Islamic state or faction is blameless in advancing the jihad against us and a fatal number are now doing so with WMD procurement.

As Condi Rice has said, we are at war with an ideology of hate. I would leave it at that.

Make no mistake. This is no popularity contest or advertising campaign. Islam is behind the vast majority of wars now raging across the planet and in our own country. They are rushing to add WMDs to their armaments. You or those close to you will likely personally die if you leave it at that.

422 Rufus Lee King  Thu, Nov 25, 2004 1:11:48am

400 EE

With our own tradition of not warring against a religion, it would be difficult for us to wage such a war in opposition to our tradition.

Our tradition is based on our First Amendment protection of the free exercise of religion. But that has never given religions license to commit crimes. We arrest Santeria practioners who torture animals and Christian Scientists who kill their children in the practice of their faiths. We must also stop Muslims from violently attacking the freedom to choose our own religions, in order to protect our tradition of freedom of faith.

We must not excuse the conspiracy to kill or convert all non-Muslims as a mere religious indulgence. It is a crime on its face. But moreover, we are now being attacked in war by this religion's mandates. We have never shrunk from defending our right to survive for any principle. And we must not confuse our survival priorities now amid the overlapping, but more flexible religious freedom issues.

We are not attempting to establish a religion either or even reject all Islamic ideas by fighting its war on us. But we must destroy the warring enemy, in all his ecclesiastical veiled lairs of combat. Only then will religious freedom, including any surviving non-criminal Islamic ideas or traditions sought, have a chance here.

423 Rufus Lee King  Thu, Nov 25, 2004 1:40:20am

400 EE

But what exactly do we lose by giving moral support to the moderate Muslims? I cannot see that we are paying any price for doing so, and if there is something to be gained -- legitimacy in the eyes of others that we want to attract to our cause -- why not?

By inaction to a gathering enemy fusillade against us, we lose our lives. And our future.

The main reason, in view, we presently have so few friends and sympathizers in the world is not our lack of values, ideas, or good works. In those we excel. It is because we appear weak to this Islamic menace. We seem and act weak due to the very principles of restraint and inoffensive civil priorities you now espouse, which we rightly let be built into our peacetime laws and policies.

Yet, with continued weakness of will to dominate others, we are still the top dog, the only superpower and one of the top economic powers. And that incites the jealousy of those rivals who would stand back and see us be toppled by our own weakness and decency now that we are under attack in war.

When we reassert our right to prevail and live using the might we have cultivated and carefully kept in check, I think we will see a lot of fair weather friends start to get back on our ship. Provided we don't let it be sunk first.

424 Uhller Isshaytan  Thu, Nov 25, 2004 3:32:03am

Surely Saddam, Uday and Qusay were moderate muslims.

They were moderate in their Islam at any rate when it came to dressing, drinking and praising Allah all the time.

The Italian Mafia is moderate in its Catholicism and
the Russian Mafia is moderate in its Russian Orthodoxy.

Though I'm only guessing.


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