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An Inept Smear at Columbia Journalism Review

Mon, Jan 3, 2005 at 1:11:44 pm PST

At Columbia Journalism Review, Corey Pein has published an incredibly slipshod, stunningly incorrect article about the Memogate affair: Blog-Gate.

Here’s the section dealing with my document experiments, and Dr. Joseph Newcomer’s technical analysis:

Haste explains the rapid spread of thinly supported theories and flawed critiques, which moved from partisan blogs to the nation’s television sets. For example, the morning after CBS’s September 8 report, the conservative blog Little Green Footballs posted a do-it-yourself experiment that supposedly proved that the documents were produced on a computer. On September 11, a self-proclaimed typography expert, Joseph Newcomer, copied the experiment, and posted the results on his personal Web site. Little Green Footballs delighted in the “authoritative and definitive” validation, and posted a link to Newcomer’s report on September 12. Two days later, Newcomer — who was “100 percent” certain that the memos were forged — figured high in a Washington Post report. The Post’s mention of Newcomer came up that night on Fox, MSNBC, and CNN, and on September 15, he was a guest on Fox News’s Hannity & Colmes.

Newcomer gave the press what it wanted: a definite answer. The problem is, his proof turns out to be far less than that. Newcomer’s résumé — boasting a Ph.D. in computer science and a role in creating electronic typesetting — seemed impressive. His conclusions came out quickly, and were bold bordering on hyperbolic. The accompanying analysis was long and technical, discouraging close examination. Still, his method was simple to replicate, and the results were easy to understand:

Based on the fact that I was able, in less than five minutes . . . to type in the text of the 01-August-1972 memo into Microsoft Word and get a document so close that you can hold my document in front of the ‘authentic’ document and see virtually no errors, I can assert without any doubt (as have many others) that this document is a modern forgery. Any other position is indefensible.

Red flags wave here, or should have. Newcomer begins with the presumption that the documents are forgeries, and as evidence submits that he can create a very similar document on his computer. This proves nothing — you could make a replica of almost any document using Word. Yet Newcomer’s aggressive conclusion is based on this logical error.

Notice how Pein first smears Dr. Newcomer as a “self-proclaimed typography expert” — then turns around in the next paragraph and cites his “impressive resume.” Pein says that Dr. Newcomer’s analysis was “long and technical” — then turns around and implies that this was a ploy to “discourage close examination.” Pein is apparently too lazy and/or technically incompetent to follow Dr. Newcomer’s analysis, but feels no compunction about smearing it with no refuting evidence whatsoever.

And his characterization of my document experiments is completely off the mark, as well.

Many of the typographic critiques were similarly flawed. Would-be gumshoes typed up documents on their computers and fooled around with the images in Photoshop until their creation matched the originals.

This is simply wrong. The damning fact about the Microsoft Word experiments is that absolutely no special efforts were made to duplicate the CBS documents. I simply opened Microsoft Word and began typing, using the default settings, and came up with a perfect match, the very first time. There was no fiddling, and there were no adjustments. There was no Photoshop work. And it wasn’t just one document that matched perfectly with no effort.

Here are the Microsoft Word source documents for my experiments:

18-August-1973.doc
19-May-1972.doc

And here are CBS’s PDF versions of the fake memos; compare them for yourself:

BushGuardaugust18.pdf
BushGuardmay19.pdf

Mr. Pein’s assertion that a person can “make a replica of almost any document using Word” is ridiculous, and completely untrue. If Corey Pein can produce an exact copy of a typewritten document using Microsoft Word, matching every element of spacing and typography, in five minutes of work—as he asserts—I’ll retract everything I’ve written here. I don’t expect to be issuing a retraction because, unlike Corey Pein, I’ve actually tried to do this. On September 13 I decided to test my hypothesis that the documents were fake by attempting to recreate a verified genuine typewritten document from George W. Bush’s National Guard records, and discovered that it was extremely difficult to create a document that was an exact match (in fact, I gave up after about an hour’s work).

The rest of the article is just as full of unsubstantiated claims, erroneous statements, and inept smears. If this is the best journalism Columbia can produce, there’s no mystery why mainstream media is in such deep trouble in this country. This article is a joke.

At Wizbang, Kevin Aylward points out that Corey Pein even quotes the discredited David Hailey “analysis” as if it were authoritative—and Hailey did fool around with his images in Photoshop, extensively.

UPDATE at 1/3/05 2:43:23 pm:

From Corey Pein’s resume:

Voted “most likely to bring down a presidential administration” by Columbia classmates.

UPDATE at 1/3/05 2:48:09 pm:

Roger L. Simon points out that Columbia journalism students don’t seem to be learning some elementary journalistic techniques:

What’s amazing to me is how little fact-checking is done by the Columbia Journalism Review, if this article is any indication. Somewhat less amazing, but equally pathetic is that they solicit subscriptions at the bottom. As if.

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513 comments

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1 Orbit Rain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:15:12am

Colombia has truly lost its luster in my mind.

go Maroons

2 Orbit Rain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:15:51am

oops..ColUmbia...I know how they hate that so...

;)

3 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:16:12am

All he had to do was hold up that hypnotic twirley thing at the beginning of Twilight Zone........."look, look into this and the truth shall be revealed...."

4 Norwegian kafir  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:16:23am

Mosul suicide bomber was Saudi medical student: report

The suicide bomber who killed 22 people when he blew himself up in a US mess hall in Mosul, Iraq, was a Saudi medical student, an Arab newspaper reported Monday.

Saudi-owned Asharq Al-Awsat identified him as 20-year-old Ahmed Said Ahmed al-Ghamdi, citing unnamed friends of the man’s father. The friends said members of an Iraqi resistance group contacted al-Ghamdi’s father to tell him his son was the suicide bomber who carried out the Dec. 21 attack, the deadliest on an American installation in Iraq.

5 JohnAnnArbor  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:17:58am

Charles, e-mail the article author and see if he deigns to respond.

6 TMF  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:18:52am

Columbia..........Journalism Review.........-hmmmmmm-can you say AGENDA?

What are the chances this guy would ever have come up with a "conclusion" that was favorable to conservative blogs and the Bush administration?

Yeah- exactly.

7 Norwegian kafir  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:18:57am

Quotes: Best of Muhammad

[Link: www.usc.edu...]

Allah's Apostle said, "None of you should walk, wearing one shoe only; he should either put on both shoes or put on no shoes whatsoever."


[Link: www.usc.edu...]

Allah's Apostle said, "If you want to put on your shoes, put on the right shoe first; and if you want to take them off, take the left one first. Let the right shoe be the first to be put on and the last to be taken off."

8 JohnAnnArbor  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:19:22am

#4:

So much for the "do no harm" part of the Hippocratic Oath. I'd be interested to know if Islamic doctors take ANY oath like that--and if they distinguish between Muslims and non-Muslims in the oath.

9 biff  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:20:59am

What's a bigger joke than Columbia's Arab Studies Department?


Columbia's School of Journalism. (Actually, it's pretty close).

10 freedomsound  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:21:09am
The accompanying analysis was long and technical, discouraging close examination.

That description better fits David Hailey's attempts to muddy the waters.

11 levi from queens  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:21:10am

Somewhat OT -- Northeastern still has not responded to my letter. Anybody else heard anything?

12 Al-Qaeda for Kerry  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:22:14am

That's why we love ya', Charles. Most of these lefties are just unfulfilled mischief-makers who've made politics their religion and hate the challenge to their orthodoxy. Like most zealots of a baseless faith they've nothing but hostilities when their dogma proves dogmatic.

13 Rednek  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:22:24am

Go Getem Charles!

14 Norwegian kafir  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:22:28am

Islamic hatred of Jews

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/char ter.html

Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas

The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsun nah/muslim/041.smt.html#041.6983

Book 041, Number 6983:

Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&am p;lv=browse&QR=11897&dgn=4

Is it alright for the Muslims to feel sorry for what the jews had to go through in the holocaust or should we think that they deserved what happened to them?.

Allaah will heal the hearts of the believers by killing them all. We have a true promise that will be fulfilled in this world, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that Allaah will grant us victory over them and cause us to prevail over them, as it says in the hadeeth: “You will fight the Jews and prevail over them, until the rocks will say, ‘O Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, kill him.’” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2925; Muslim, 2921.

And Allaah is the One Whose help we seek.


Nazi Influence on the Middle East During WWII

“Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours.'”
- Former Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini in his post-WWII memoirs. [1]

15 peacekeeper  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:23:50am

Yeah, you can practically smell the superiority, be careful not to step in it.

16 Lewis  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:24:24am

#1 Orbit Rain

Did someone mention Maroons?


Themistocles, Thucydides,
The Peloponnesian War,
X squared, Y squared,
H2SO4.
Who for? What for?
Who we gonna yell for?
GO, MAROONS!

Logarithm, biorhythm,
Entropy, kinetics,
MPC, GNP, bioenergetics!
Maximize and integrate,
Titrate and Equilibrate--
GO, MAROONS!

Maximize our GNP,
Titrate their solution;
Calculate their MPC,
Crush their revolution!
GO, MAROONS!

w00t!

17 zygazint  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:26:03am

BAM!

Good work, as usual, Charles.

MSM is now starting to equate to mainstream MORONS.

18 secsailor  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:26:30am

#4 Norwegian kafir

RED FLAG! A 20 year old medical student? Don't you have to graduate from college with a pre-med degree first? I'm not saying it's impossible, just highly unlikely...

19 soonerborn  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:28:09am

OT but important

Anyone have any info on this

Zarqawi captured

20 William  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:28:13am
Newcomer begins with the presumption that the documents are forgeries, and as evidence submits that he can create a very similar document on his computer. This proves nothing — you could make a replica of almost any document using Word.

Wrong.

Apple's TrueType font algorithm, used in Microsoft Word, was not even invented until 1993.

Overlaying a 30-year-old "typewritten" document over a document typed up in Microsoft Word, which uses the TrueType font algorithm, and having a perfect match, would be enough evidence to convict in a court of law.

Conversely, CBS "News" using Kerry vice-chair Ben Barnes, and a partisan Bush-hater to provide forged "memos" would get you laughed out of court.

The documents were never authenticated, by anyone, and this latest from Columbia is yet another attempt at shifting the burden of proof, and distraction.
 

21 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:28:45am

What I can't understand is why the L³ can look at facts and come up with some other story. If you look up and say "the sky is blue" they will claim it's green. Tell them that water is "wet" and they will claim it's not. Black is white, up is down, WTF is wrong with these people?

22 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:29:01am

Secsailor -

Some US colleges have a combined BS-MD program that takes six years.

The Saudi colleges may not have a separate Bachelor's Degree requirement.

23 SteveC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:29:06am

Waaaaaaay OT: You use the tools that you have!

Be sure to read the last two paragraphs in the second colored box! (HINT: If they mention Tampons, you're in the right area!)

24 Dianna  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:29:22am

After reading that article, I am firmly reminding myself that conservatives don't seethe. So I'll open my word processor and compose a nice, neat, polite letter to the author.

Then I will go home and punch a pillow a few times.

25 TMF  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:29:23am

Is "Corey Pein" a pseudonym? Im thinking this guy is an out of work porn actor moonlighting as a "journalism" scholar.

What a complete buffoon. Please, PLEASE tell me he doesn't get paid for this stunning display of partisanship, incompetence and ignorance.

26 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:30:34am
Enjoy this piece? Consider a CJR trial subscription.

Grrrrrr...

27 AtlasShrugged  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:30:40am

look, there are 6 million dead jews and there are people that deny the holocaust
facts become irrelevant when you "belief system" is threatened

28 centaur  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:30:49am

3, 2, 1...

What a maroon.

Such insulation must be suffocating.

29 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:31:42am

Charles Johnson: Technically/scientifically rigorous methods used to advance an absurdity - that Bush didn't shirk military service.

Corey Pein - Intellectually lazy and indefensible methods used to advance a certaintly - that Bush shirked military service.

Take your pick...

30 gymnast  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:31:58am

#18, secsailor. MBBS degree - Medical Baccloriate Batchelor of Science. The medical degree awarded in Europe and most of the World other than the USA.

31 cantrecant  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:32:33am

Is this a Columbia student publication? I wonder if Pein knows that his non-analysis is blustery championing of the victimized loser left or if he really believes he is presenting bona fide critical thought.

32 Rock the Casbah  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:32:55am

why is journalism a field of study? you can't get a degree in alchemy any more - can you?

33 Lizard by the Bay  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:33:04am
Many of the typographic critiques were similarly flawed. Would-be gumshoes typed up documents on their computers and fooled around with the images in Photoshop until their creation matched the originals.

Ironic, as this describes what Rather-supporter Hailey did to a T! Anyone remember that temp folder that he left unsecured on his website, where you could see his interim Photoshop files?

34 azul93gt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:33:26am

The forger(s) will have made a confession and the L^3'ers will still be insisting that the memos were authentic. This young would be "journalist" is making a fool of himself.

35 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:33:33am

#18 secsailor

RED FLAG! A 20 year old medical student? Don't you have to graduate from college with a pre-med degree first? I'm not saying it's impossible, just highly unlikely...

In some cultures, Medicine is a direct major in college rather than going to college first and then to Medical School. Same with Law.

If he was from Saudi Arabia, it wouldn't surprise me if he was almost a doctor at 20.

36 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:33:38am

Soonerborn -

I hope to G-d that's true. But this is not the first time he's been reported to have been captured.

{crossing fingers...crossing toes...crossing anything else that can be crossed}

37 pilgrim shadow  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:33:49am

This is Corey Pein's "investigation"?

lazy, lazy, lazy......he's going to get a job for the MSM easily, don't you think?

38 centaur  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:34:44am

Oh dear.

39 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:35:25am

And, before anyone says "prove it!" I can tell you with certainty that is based upon plain old Perry Mason lawyerly inferences.

A person of George W. Bush's:

Age
Health
Socio-economic status
Educational background:

who didn't serve in Vietnam
who served in the National Guard

DIDN'T WANT TO SERVE IN VIETNAM, AND AVOIDED IT!

No amount of Dan Rather/Corey Bein LLLism can obscure this basic fact.

And no LGF/Charles Bush shillmeisters can obscure this basic fact.

40 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:35:40am

What's that smell?

41 pilgrim shadow  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:35:54am

Charles:

Just wanted to know. Did this 'reporter' call you for a comment or to inquire about anything regarding his 'report' which included commentary on your work?

42 AtlasShrugged  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:36:32am

Gordon
Please tell me you have more going for you in your bag of tricks......................so weak as to be pathetic

43 NY Nana  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:36:48am

#29 nodrog

Pick your nose.

Re Columbia? As the mother of a man who got his MS there in '88? I guess the standards have gone down to those of a community college in the past 2 decades, and are still dropping.

44 Dave the.....  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:37:18am
posted a do-it-yourself experiment that supposedly proved that the documents were produced on a computer. On September 11, a self-proclaimed typography expert, Joseph Newcomer, copied the experiment, and posted the results on his personal Web site. Little Green Footballs delighted in the “authoritative and definitive” validation


This language could be used in a course teaching propaganda. How to ridicule, belittle, and attack your opponent. The words and language used are smear at its best.

45 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:37:27am

#42 Atlas Shrugged: What is your alternative explanation for why George W. Bush didn't serve in Vietnam?

46 Pamela  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:37:54am

#19 soonerborn


Imposing the 48 Hour Rule on this one, but I hope it is true! but Consider the source!

47 Charles  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:37:58am

pilgrim shadow wrote:

Did this 'reporter' call you for a comment or to inquire about anything regarding his 'report' which included commentary on your work?

Of course not!

48 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:38:08am

#43 NY Nana: What is your alternative explanation for why George W. Bush didn't serve in Vietnam?

49 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:38:44am

#47 Charles: What is your alternative explanation for why George W. Bush didn't serve in Vietnam?

50 ajackson  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:38:52am

Corey Pein's resume is here and his blog is here.

Sounds like your typical lefty journalist. From his resume:

Evergreen State College, BA Liberal Arts 2003 - Thesis on domestic propaganda in the war on terrorism

Editorial intern -- Summer 2002, The American Prospect (From About the American Prospect - The American Prospect was founded in 1990 as an authoritative magazine of liberal ideas, committed to a just society, an enriched democracy, and effective liberal politics. Robert Kuttner, Robert Reich, and Paul Starr launched the magazine initially as a quarterly).

And my favorite:

The Cooper Point Journal (weekly student newspaper)

Led production and enforced deadlines. Hired and trained staff. Edited for libel and clarity.

51 JohnAnnArbor  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:39:06am

#45:

Why does it matter SO MUCH about Bush and NOT AT ALL about Clinton, who served not at all?

52 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:39:17am
53 vxbush  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:39:18am

It's the usual, folks. The inability of the press to actually do investigative journalism has been demonstrated again.

Can't say I'm surprised.

Re: Zarqawi--that would be a nice treat. A new year's present, perhaps?

-vxbush

54 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:39:29am

#40 Frank IBC: What is your alternative explanation for why George W. Bush didn't serve in Vietnam?

55 Cam  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:39:36am

#45 Gordon:

Because he ws lucky enough to get into the Guard.

Next?

56 Rancher  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:40:05am
The story was anchored on four memos that, it turns out, were of unknown origin.

I don't think he even accepts that they're fakes. That Egyptian river syndrome.

57 NY Nana  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:40:05am

#40 Frank IBC

nodrog is right over your post..it's the seepage from his Pampers™

58 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:40:30am

#30 gymnast

#18, secsailor. MBBS degree - Medical Baccloriate Batchelor of Science. The medical degree awarded in Europe and most of the World other than the USA.

Even in Europe?

Wow.

I think Israel's Medical Schools are more like America's, though (I know that they use the same medical textbooks in English.)

59 Beagle  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:40:32am
Consider the memos in question. They were supposed to have been written by Lieutenant Colonel Jerry Killian, now dead, who supervised Bush in the Guard. We know Killian’s name was on them. We don’t know whether the memos were forged, authentic, or some combination thereof. Indeed, they could be fake but accurate, as Killian’s secretary, Marian Carr Knox, told CBS on September 15. We don’t know through what process they wound up in the possession of a former Guardsman, Bill Burkett, who gave them to the star CBS producer Mary Mapes. Who really wrote them? Theories abound: The Kerry campaign created the documents. CBS’s source forged them. Karl Rove planted them. They were real. Some of them were real. They were recreations of real documents. The bottom line, which credible document examiners concede, is that copies cannot be authenticated either way with absolute certainty.


What a load of crap. When did partisan hackery become journalism? "Theories abound" in the feverswamp minds of Democratic Underground.

60 Dianna  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:40:39am

#29 Gordon

Grow up. "When he was young and irresponsible he was young and irresponsible." Nobody bloody cares!

The issue is that Charles and Dr. Newcomer did sterling work on the memos, and this Pein person is a sloppy jerk.

Your constant attacks on Charles make me wonder about your medication balance.

On second thought, they simply display your level of maturity. Non-existent.

61 azul93gt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:40:42am

#29 Gordon 1/3/2005 01:31PM PST

Please give the statutory definition of "shirked military service."

All Charles and others attempted to prove was that fraudulent memos were indeed fraudulent. Bush already had his honorable discharge papers.

62 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:40:46am
63 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:41:27am

Gordon -

Are you/were you in favor of the Vietnam War?

64 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:41:29am

Gordon -

Bush and Vietnam ---

Please put your recycled shit into the Recycled Shit Dumpster...

Thanks

65 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:41:50am

#51 JohnAnnArbor: It matters because Clinton didn't use attack dogs to smear his opponents as being soft on the military.

It matters because Clinton didn't take a Vietnam POW (John McCain) and use operatives to smear him in South Carolina that he had been driven insane by Vietnamese torture, and was thus unfit for office.

It matters because George Bush made it matter.

66 AtlasShrugged  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:41:50am

#45 Gordo

He did serve.................hello?
Whats your explanation for Clinton?
For 264 Swift boat vets?
For meeting, aiding, abetting the enemy?
For killing women and babies?

67 EIDE_Interface  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:42:35am

OT: Abbas promises Palestinians refugees return to Israel

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

68 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:43:01am

Rayra -

The people at Columbia could learn a thing or two from pigs and clams - they take {censored} and turn it into delicious meals.

69 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:43:08am

Corey -- put down the 2 x 4 -- The horse is DEAD.

Even See-BS isn't claiming that the memos are authentic anymore, are they? But Corey skips along, ignoring all the facts, even as they rain down on him.

Corey, please tell us what pill you swallowed to make you so DELOOOOOOSIONAL. And did you bring enough for everybody?

70 EIDE_Interface  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:43:30am

#39 Gordon:

Bush still won re-election you dolt. Get over it.

71 WriterMom  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:43:51am

Don't let Gordon derail the conversation...let's keep chatting about what a scumhole Columbia has become and celebrate Charles' role in exposing the scandal.

72 Dave the.....  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:43:56am
RED FLAG! A 20 year old medical student? Don't you have to graduate from college with a pre-med degree first? I'm not saying it's impossible, just highly unlikely...


I hear his true name is Muhammad Doogie Howser Al-Hussien

73 Peacekeeper  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:44:32am

W Bush didn't serve in 'Nam, we all knew that for a long time, and he told us he was a hell raiser and drinker for much of his youth. I can understand that. The important thing is that he is President NOW, and a wise leader NOW.

Kerry was a self promoting poseur boob then, and is still one NOW. I grew up in Mass and I know this breed of arsitocratic snob (sob?).

74 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:44:36am

#39 Gordon

who didn't serve in Vietnam

Asshat, I've served almost 24 years of active duty, I haven't served in Iraq. Am I not doing my duty?

Asshole

75 EIDE_Interface  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:44:38am

If Corey Pein thinks there is any traction to his smear piece, CBS president going to the POTUS to beg forgiveness answers that definitively! Corey, go take a good cry now.

76 Malleus Dei  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:44:43am

Doesn't Columbia have a fact checker? This article is wrong beyond belief.

77 JohnAnnArbor  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:44:44am

"It matters because George Bush made it matter."

'K, then by your logic, John Kerry asked for and received his due when the Swifties revealed him as a fraud. After all, Kerry made his Vietnam heroism central to his campaign, didn't he?

78 prospero  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:44:44am
If this is the best journalism Columbia can produce, there’s no mystery why mainstream media is in such deep trouble in this country. This article is a joke.

Sadly, that probably IS the best it can produce. Logic and evidence don't matter, any argument is as good as another as long as it sounds plausible and advances the agenda. Various correspondents on this very thread make it clear that the audience will always be there.

79 W-lover  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:45:04am

nodroG- Why didn't Clinton serve? Not even in the National Guard? Why did Gore get a cushy photographers position in Vietnam? Why did LBJ get us into that quagmire? What the @$*# is your point?

Charles- this is your typical MSM history re-write. Phase one- discredit the blogs & experts.

80 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:45:06am

Charles, you've raised quite a crop of shills on LGF, congratulations.

And I noticed you are too cowardly to answer my question too - perhaps even a nonsensical non-answer like Cam has in #55 would suffice...

81 AtlasShrugged  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:45:13am

#71 WriterMom

Hear! Hear!

82 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:45:28am

#67 EIDE_Interface

He's still far too moderate for the militant group Hamas, however, which demanded that he apologize for requesting a halt to rocket attacks against Israel.

Think Abbas will apologize to Hamas?

I do. He'll get down on his hands and knees to beg their forgiveness while funding their next attack against Israel, probably (heaven forbid.)

83 Dianna  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:46:47am

#72 Dave the...

OW! I liked that one!

84 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:46:49am

Gordon -

Changing that which can be changed, leaving alone that which can't be changed, and knowing the difference, is not "cowardice".

85 SteveC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:47:10am

#39, Gordon:

And, before anyone says "prove it!" I can tell you with certainty that is based upon plain old Perry Mason lawyerly inferences.

Perry Mason? I saw that episode! Wasn't it "The Case of the Terrified Typist"?*

Seriously, every time Gordon lifts his head and bays at the moon, I'm reminded of the video from this Diamond Rio song. It ends with the crazy man in a strait-jacket and the doctor asking him "Isn't that right, Gordon?"


* In "The Case of the Terrified Typist", Perry Mason LOST!

86 EIDE_Interface  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:47:18am

#82 rightasrain:

The bottom line, no matter how the MSM try to spin, Abbas is just another terrorist-in-chief of Palistan. Even Colon Bowel almost said so.

87 Catttt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:47:34am
The rest of the article is just as full of unsubstantiated claims, erroneous statements, and inept smears. If this is the best journalism Columbia can produce, there’s no mystery why mainstream media is in such deep trouble in this country. This article is a joke.

I agree. I just read half the article - can't stomach any more right now. He mentions logic several times but himself uses faulty logic repeatedly. I'm sure someone with more patience and expertise than I have will vet this thoroughly.

Here, to me, is the real issue:

the dangerous impatience

of media in jumping on the story, once bloggers were onto it.

The hotshot "journalists" at LLL Columbia are basically doing the "let your betters do the thinking" routine. Take your time, let lies stand for months while we Columbia profs give it a careful going over. Sometime next year, we will let you know what to think.

Meanwhile, any idiot can use his/her eyes and see the thing is a fake.

The emperor has no clothes; now, the emperor wants us to sit around while he goes to the mall. My answer: no.

88 Cam  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:47:35am

#65 Gordon:

It matters because Clinton didn't use attack dogs to smear his opponents as being soft on the military.

Uh, having dodged the draft by going to England, Clinton didn't exactly have the moral authority to accuse others of being soft militarily.

89 secsailor  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:47:55am

#29 Gordon 1/3/2005 01:31PM PST

Charles Johnson: Technically/scientifically rigorous methods used to advance an absurdity - that Bush didn't shirk military service.
Corey Pein - Intellectually lazy and indefensible methods used to advance a certaintly - that Bush shirked military service.

Ah, the old bait and switch. Charles never said this was proof that Bush didn't shirk his duty. Only that the documents were false. Typical LLL tactic of trying to change the subject.

What CBS did was akin to a bad cop planting evidence because he's sure that the suspect is guilty and wants to be sure of a conviction. Whether or not the subject is guilty is irrelevent. Planting evidence is still wrong. Why is that so hard to understand?

90 EIDE_Interface  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:47:56am

#80 Gordon:

Pot. Kettle. Black. Now go home.

91 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:48:31am

LLLs like Nodrog are acting like the National Guard was invented for Bush and he was the only one who ever joined it.

LOTS of guys made it into the National Guard.

92 NY Nana  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:49:06am

#50 ajackson

The same joke where rachael 'St. Pancake' corrie attended?

nodrog wasn't admitted there...too far out and too far left. And not potty trained.

A note from nodrog's poor Mummy.....

93 Terrye  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:49:22am

These folks are the same people that claim Bush stole two elections.

The condition is cognitive dissonance. I suggest they get help.

I am part of the Viet Nam generation and there were a lot of people that did not serve in Nam, so what.

The Demcorats seem to be saying vote for our war criminal that served in an unjust war that nobdoy should have served in but at least he did unlike Bush who did not serve but was in the Guard and did not actively dodge the draft like Clinton who was doing the right thing because Viet Nam was an unjust war.......blah blah blah.

94 Dave the.....  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:49:28am
#42 Atlas Shrugged: What is your alternative explanation for why George W. Bush didn't serve in Vietnam?

Because he'd rather be a fighter pilot in the Air Guard then go to Vietnam. He's never denied that.

The left has been lying about how he got into the guard and how long he served. The debate is so old. Maybe someone has the link to the NRO article from last winter on this. He served 4 solid years, 2 years with minimum but acceptable service.

95 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:49:44am

About Vietnam........

Let's see....

William Jefferson Clinton received the Rhodes Scholarship, not for his grades but for sucking up to someone in Arkansas....for which he received a Student Deferment, the same type of deferment that John Kerry got for each year he went to Yale...........

Clinton packed his little bag and went to Oxford. Remember, it is touted that Clinton went to Oxford. What is neglected is that Clinton dropped out the very first semester.....while still on his student deferment. He lived with his London buddies, actually they remember that he liberally "scrounged" off them while he led protest marches against the Vietnam War in front of the US Embassy while carrying the Red Chinese flag.......

Clinton never went back to Oxford...... And never served in the military, or the National Guard, or Air National Guard....

While Bush never met with Madame Binh in Paris while still in the Guard like Kerry did, while still in the Naval Reserves....

96 Norwegian kafir  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:49:52am

Divided Congress to Use Separate Restrooms

(2005-01-03) -- The 109th U.S. Congress, which convenes tomorrow, will be so deeply divided that Republicans and Democrats will use separate restrooms, according to Congressional sources.

Leaders in the House and Senate have already allocated funding for door signs designating men's and women's restrooms for each of the two major parties.

Debates in committee have centered the relative positions of facilities to the right or left of the House and Senate chambers.

Democrats said they'll fight any effort by the Republican majority to position them to the far left of the main halls. The threat of a Democrat restroom filibuster looms as Republicans exercise their growing political power.

Aides also report gathering momentum for a Republican effort to "privatize" public restrooms, sparking some Democrats to wonder aloud if the facilities will be "there for you when your time comes."

97 ibrodsky  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:50:30am

So what is Corey Pein's thesis?

Is he saying the documents weren't forgeries and blogs like LGF destroyed what may be perfectly good evidence?

I only skimmed the article, but it appears that Pein's sole purpose is to discredit Charles and other bloggers. He doesn't have any new evidence. He doesn't even claim the documents are genuine.

He's just mad that ordinary people were able to catch the liberal media elite red-handed.

The key point Pein doesn't understand: the burden is on those presenting evidence of wrong-doing to prove it's genuine. Because in our system of justice we assume the accused is innocent until proven guilty.

The bloggers cast serious doubt on the authenticity of the documents--and even CBS has admitted as much. There is no burden on the bloggers to do more.

Pein's argument is essentially that since we don't know for sure which documents are fake, how they were faked, and who faked them, then the bloggers are guilty of wrecking an otherwise (!) great story.

That's nonsense.

98 LC LaWedgie  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:50:43am

Once again, the elcubo bananas prove to the world that they are incapable of accepting the obvious.

Howdy hi, friends and neighbors, I'm Jean Kere' and I've petarded my doodie.

99 WriterMom  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:51:18am

Gordon is laughing his head off at all of us. He usually picks a point that he thinks we are all particularly emotionally vulnerable about and then takes his aim, anxiously awaiting responses.

Then, he pleads for attention by insisting that Charles isn't listening to him :( and answering his questions about Bushitler and his secret, rich Texan formula for evading active duty in Vietnam...

Don't take the bait.

100 Crimsonfisted  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:51:19am

#65
There was a glut of pilots of his type and the aircraft he flew was being phased out. No reason to call him up. Let me find the link.

#72
Love the Doogie Houser reference. LOL!

101 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:51:31am

The thing is, asshats like nodroG think everyone in the military serves in warzones. Not even close to half the active duty force served in Vietnam.

102 Cam  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:51:31am

#96 Norwegian kafir:

Presumably Independants have to pee outside in the bushes.

103 Crusader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:51:55am

"What CBS did was akin to a bad cop planting evidence because he's sure that the suspect is guilty and wants to be sure of a conviction. Whether or not the subject is guilty is irrelevent. Planting evidence is still wrong. Why is that so hard to understand?"

Because the LLL don't believe in absolute concepts like "wrong"--its all *relative* to them. They feel completely comfortable making it all up as they go along because they are not shackled by any moral absolutes.

104 el presidente'  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:52:37am

Nodrog,

Many men served in the national guard, if men didn't serve in the national guard , then there would be no national guard.
If you agree with this statement , then you must agree also, that since there was a National guard, GWB was not the only man to serve in the National Guard.
So in conclusion, are you saying that every man that served in the National Guard where what ? Cowards, or did they all have good connections. What is your point, that the National Guard is not important, or that the people that served in the Guard did not serve the country?
By the way, nodrog, where did you serve in Viet Nam?

105 Al-Qaeda for Kerry  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:52:54am

#80 Gordon

I like you. I've always been respectful. So admit it. You have more fun at LGF than anywhere else on line. That's why your here so much. And I wonder if you find yourself up late at night, pensive and slow to sleep, wondering if you just might slowly be turning into an LGFer. I know it is scary. How will you explain it to your friends - they just won't understand and will pity you. But you'll be better for it. The women on the right are sexier, richer, smarter, and smell much better. The men are genuine - without pretense - so you don't always have to be "on." And the right has so much more fun ragging on the lefties than they do coming after us. Think about it.

106 WriterMom  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:53:06am

#97 ibrodsky

So what is Corey Pein's thesis?

It's getting late...I could have sworn that said-So, what is Corey's thin penis?

107 EIDE_Interface  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:53:39am

I think the BIGGER story here is not Pein, but he's symptomatic of the absolute rot within all of academia. I have no answers how to solve it.

108 peacekeeper  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:53:49am

Gordon

If you were on trial for murder, and I, as prosecutor raised up a pile of documents implicating you explicitly, not seen for 30 years, signed by a man long dead...

You gettin' my point?

Show me you're not a hack, say something , anything, one thing nice about W Bush.

109 Semper Gumbi  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:54:01am

#39 Gordon:

Your point is what?

Haven't you gotten it thorough your thick head yet that what Bush did or didn't do back then is unimportant? Bush opponents have tried to smear him with this since his days campaigning for Governor. The voters have shown over and over they care more about Bush the man now, not then. You would have thought that the Democrats would have learned that by now.

So, the story isn't Bush in the National Guard, but the attempt by a formerly respected TV journalist to smear the President using phony documents.

110 gymnast  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:54:02am

#58, rightasrain and secsailor. MBBS also stands for Medical Bacloriate and Batchelor of Surgery. Usually a PhD in a scientific area such as Physiology is required to teach in a program offering the MBBS degree. A friend of mine who taught radiology in Germany had a terminal degree of PhD in Radiation Physics. His business card identified him as Dr,Dr, Prof, ect. His medical degree was an MBBS. I do not have a high regard for MBBS graduaduates trained outside of Western Europe with a few notable exceptions.

111 pookleblinky  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:54:16am

#66 Atlas

Not to mention shooting people in the back.

112 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:54:45am

#66 AtlasShrugged


According to comments on another thread, nodroG thinks the SwiftBoat vets are scum.

113 lah-dee-dah-dah  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:55:20am

Pein...

insane

drain

inane

pain

stain

bane

feign

Cain

rain

114 Al-Qaeda for Kerry  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:55:29am

#105 - why YOU'RE here so much ;)

115 EIDE_Interface  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:55:45am

To expand on my previous post #107, it's what Rush talks about all the time, that the left has assaulted the instiutions that made America great over the last 35+ years and they've taken over academia and ruined it. How do we take it back?

116 Lizard by the Bay  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:56:01am

nodrog,

My father served in the National Guard during Vietnam. His parents were immigrants from Denmark, with no personal wealth to speak of. At the time, he was married, but had no kids.

As hard as this may seem to grasp, many thousands served in the National Guard without any strings being pulled.

117 AtlasShrugged  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:56:11am

Gordito:
brainiac points out that i neglected to site shooting people in the back

118 blueroom127  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:56:16am

Perhaps that "article" by that "Journalist" was simply an exquisitely sublime attack on the state of media bias and the ease with which "journalists" can blur the truth by doing just that.

Or perhaps it wasn't.

119 zombie  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:57:13am

Send this boy Corey Pein back to school. He has no grasp of simple logical priniciples and seems to be suffering from some sort of thought disorder.

Corey, try to understand this:

Set A is the set of objects that can be created on a 1972-era typewriter.

Set B is the set of objects that can be created using the default settings of the current (as of 2004) software program Microsoft Word.

Object 1 is the document produced by CBS on 60 Minutes II.

Question: Is Object 1 a member of
a. Set A exclusively
b. Set B exclusively
c. both Set A and Set B
d. neither Set A nor Set B?

If the answer is "a" then the memo could conceivably be authentic. If the answer is "b" then the memo is definitely a forgery. If the answer is "c" then there is no way to tell if it is authentic or not. If the answer is "d" then the memo is also definitely a forgery.

Johnson and Newcomer proved conclusively (yes, proved) that Object 1 WAS a member of Set B, which means the answer to the question must be either "b" -- definitely a forgery -- or "c" -- no way to tell if it is a forgery or not.

The only way to "collapse the function" and ascertain whether or not it is "b" or "c" is to either create the document on a 1972-era typewriter, thus showing Object 1 also belongs to Set A, or to show that no such typewriter exists or existed, thus showing it could not possibly belong to Set A.

Immense amounts of efforts on both sides have been put into the search for such a typewriter. The results: No one has ever created the document on a 1972 typewriter. No one has ever shown that such a typewriter was available to the purported creator of the document. Yet piles of evidence has been unearthed that there was no such typewriter; the only one that came anywhere close (though not close enough) was shown to be not available to nor used by the purported creator of the memo.

Hence, our logical conclusion is that the answer is almost certainly "b" and that the memo is definitely a forgery. There is a exceedingly slim-to-vanishing chance that the answer could be "c" -- no way to determine if it was a forgery or not -- but the burden of proof is on those who insist it is authentic. The very best anyone could do (and the odds against that happening at this stage are practically nil) is raise a tiny doubt that the memo might not be a forgery.

Until such time as further evidence arises, the only possible conclusion is that the memo is a forgery.

Corey, read and re-read this a couple times, then issue a retraction.

120 azul93gt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:57:58am

I noticed Ol' Gordo never answered one post that countered his tired old L^3 "Bush shirked his duties" nonsense.

121 EIDE_Interface  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:57:59am

#116 Lizard by the Bay:

Even if Bush did get into TANG with strings pulled, the only people who ever cared were the LLL. It was never an important issue to the mainstream. At least not in 2004, perhaps in 1976 it would have been.

122 KWH  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:58:20am

Well, why let a little thing like the truth get in the way of a good smear?

123 EIDE_Interface  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:59:03am

#120 azul93gt:

Nodrog is here to stir up our emotions, not to engage in constructive debate, but that's what trolls do!

124 Bostonian  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:59:42am

#65:
Bush had nothing to do with the SBVT.

Believe it or not, there are people who can act independently because they have strong motivations of their own.

F'rinstance. I gave money to the SBVT, without even being asked to by Bush/Rove/Whoever. I did it because I believed them (and still do).

Do you believe in anything at all?

***
Hi Terrye!

125 Crimsonfisted  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:59:42am
126 TMF  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 11:59:49am
Evergreen State College, BA Liberal Arts 2003

That factual ditty is RIFE with hilarity.

Thesis on domestic propaganda in the war on terrorism

Oooooh- thats even funnier! Lemme guess- he subscribes to "the Nation" too- and thinks David COrn is a fucking superhero.

Talk about "domestic propaganda"- this fuckface is mentally incapable of thinking outside the box of his 20 something left wing brainwashed skull.

ALL his conclusions are foregone and pre-conceived. He never had an original idea. Mental backwash. Intellectual diarreah. Jesus. What a sorry assed state of affairs.

127 MJ  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:00:12pm

I guess it's not surprising the Columbia Journalism Review also regularly engages in anti-Israel smear jobs. They never met a criticism of a single anti-Israel story that they could agree with.

128 cathyf  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:00:25pm
Mr. Pein’s assertion that a person can “make a replica of almost any document using Word” is ridiculous, and completely untrue. If Corey Pein can produce an exact copy of a typewritten document using Microsoft Word, matching every element of spacing and typography, in five minutes of work—as he asserts—I’ll retract everything I’ve written here. I don’t expect to be issuing a retraction.

AAACCCKKKK! No, that entirely misses the point. It is trivially easy to create an exact copy of a typewritten document in Word. It is also trivially easy to produce an exact copy of a typeset document which in the early 1970's would have required a $200,000 typesetting machine. And trivially easy to produce an exact copy of output from a $150,000 typesetter, $100,000 typesetter, $75,000 typesetter, $30,000 typesetter, etc.

The point is that the 60 Minutes II fakes weren't made with the (trivially easy to use) typewriter-like mode of Word, they were made with the really spiffy $200K typesetter mode of Word. The default mode -- if you have a program that makes really pretty output and ugly output, you are going to make the pretty output the default, right?

If the fakers had typed out the documents in a word-processor made for writing computer programs instead of a word processor made for writing typeset-quality documents then they might very well have gotten away with it -- the arguments about wording, military form, etc. are very convincing, too, but they would be easier to rationalize away if you wanted the documents to be true. A really scary thought that the MSM is totally ignoring is that the next batch of faked documents out there are going to be done a lot better. This fakery was laughably incompetent, with the only people stupid enough to be taken in being journalists. But the next time could be done well enough that even the blogs won't be able to catch them.

cathy :-)

129 sli  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:00:25pm

#39 Gordon

who didn't serve in Vietnam
who served in the National Guard

DIDN'T WANT TO SERVE IN VIETNAM, AND AVOIDED IT!

No amount of Dan Rather/Corey Bein LLLism can obscure this basic fact.

And no LGF/Charles Bush shillmeisters can obscure this basic fact.


[Link: wingmenforbush.com...]

5. Following basic training, Bush was open to overseas service but was not yet fully trained or permitted to go overseas.
Bush has been accused of trying to avoid Vietnam service when he indicated on a form, “Does not volunteer for overseas service,” prior to reporting to undergraduate pilot training. Col. Bill Campenni explains that such an answer was required: “A non-issue. The form that this canard references is AF Form 125, Application for Extended Active Duty (EAD). It is a required form for every Air Force officer's personnel folder. However, it does not apply to reservists and guardsman unless and until ordered to extended active duty. Most guardsmen, like Lt. Bush and me, were told by personnel clerks to check off the "not volunteer" block because it was meaningless. We had to fill out the form to go to pilot training because that year was EAD (Extended Active Duty). But all the training bases were in the United States, so the election had no effect. In the Guard, you are the property of that unit and that state. You aren't going anywhere except where your unit goes.” Those who served with Bush attest to the fact that he was ready and willing to serve overseas, in fact, he was eager to test his skills as a fighter pilot.

130 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:00:33pm

#116 Lizard, #121 EIDE

I note that the military voted overwhelmingly for Bush, who, according to the LLL "didn't serve" as opposed that pseudo war hero Kerry, who did.

Tells me everything I need to know.

131 Bostonian  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:00:52pm

#113:
You forgot McCain.

132 Crimsonfisted  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:01:09pm
133 Peacekeeper  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:03:57pm

I didn't serve in Vietnam, I didn't have a strong opinion on the US presence in SE Asia.
I was six years old in 1970, but for some that is no excuse...

134 Beagle  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:04:10pm

nodroG

#51 JohnAnnArbor: It matters because Clinton didn't use attack dogs to smear his opponents as being soft on the military.

Very good use of cliche, avoid the question, and false analogy. Carry on.

135 ibrodsky  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:04:57pm

#119 zombie

Great post. This is the real difference between us and the Left. One side cares about facts and reason, the other doesn't.

136 Pamela  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:05:14pm

NodroG

My Dad served in the National Gaurd, the son of Canadian farmers. He served honorably. No strings were pulled to get him in. My Mom left us while my brother was still only a year old, my Dad was all we had. My Dad could have been called up anytime to go to Vietnam, just like they did to my Uncle who was in the Gaurd and did go to Vietnam.

Lizard By The Bay
"As hard as this may seem to grasp, many thousands served in the National Guard without any strings being pulled."


you got that right

137 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:05:40pm

#134 Beagle

Nah, Clinton just used his attack dogs to smear Billy Dale and the staff of the White House Travel Office.

138 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:07:02pm

#101 reaganite

The thing is, asshats like nodroG think everyone in the military serves in warzones. Not even close to half the active duty force served in Vietnam.

My dad spent 1960-68 in the USN, serving as a navigator on an anti-submarine patrol aircaft and never went anywhere near SE Asia. I guess he "shirked" too.

139 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:07:10pm
140 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:08:29pm
This proves nothing — you could make a replica of almost any document using Word.

These people are going crazy.
This sentence is an example of insanity.

THE POINT IS NOT THAT YOU CAN IMITATE OR NOT THOSE DOCS USING WORD.
THE POINT IS THAT THOSE DOCUMENTS WERE TYPED IN A WAY THAT WAS... IMPOSSIBLE IF THEY HAD BEEN TYPED IN THAT TIME.

WHAT THE HECK ?
THIS IS MADNESS !

141 reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:08:51pm

Norwegian Kafir #7,

So we have a religious leader, a prophet, no less, who is superstitious. This is what I like about Islam, that no matter how you look at it, from whatever angle, it always comes either stupid or false, usually both.

142 Colorado mike  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:09:00pm

al-zarqawi

One can only hope thats true....

143 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:09:06pm

This is just flatly, plain-out hi-larious. Damn, I'm glad I didn't go to Columbia. Otherwise I might reason the way this dope does:

Newcomer’s résumé — boasting a Ph.D. in computer science and a role in creating electronic typesetting — seemed impressive.

"Yes, it seemed impressive, but in reality it was... uh... impressive. Stupid résumé!" (grumbling)

His conclusions came out quickly, and were bold bordering on hyperbolic.

Funny, I was alway taught that it's a good thing to clearly announce your conclusions when writing a critical essay. I guess they do things differently at Columbia.

The accompanying analysis was long and technical, discouraging close examination.

Now let's just ponder that sentence for a moment.

144 Cam  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:09:35pm

#139 ploome hineni:

LOL!

145 vxbush  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:09:46pm

Somewhat off topic, but not that much:

I spent some time this weekend with some good friends from my graduate school days. We got to talking about college, as their oldest is finished with her third semester of community college before transferring to a university for her last two years.

They home schooled their kids, and they said their oldest constantly is amazed at how incapable other students are at reading, writing, and arguing in a cogent manner.

I don't mean to beat on the horse of public education, but the point is that so many of these people in the media haven't been trained on how to think and argue competently. And far too many of the populace haven't been trained on how to dissect arguments and statements. Ad hominem attacks are perfectly legitimate to them.

I'm so glad to see on LGF that there are so many others who did figure out how to think... Big pat on the back to most of you who can reason. (I'm afraid, Gordon, I'm not yet willing to pat your back.)

Charles, thanks for providing this forum. It's a breath of fresh air.

146 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:09:48pm

#138 Spiny Norman

My dad spent 1960-68 in the USN, serving as a navigator on an anti-submarine patrol aircaft and never went anywhere near SE Asia. I guess he "shirked" too.

My father was a submariner serving in the Atlantic (pesky Soviets), he was a "shirker" too.

147 Iron Fist  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:10:03pm

#101 reaganite,

When I was in high school I had a buddy who's dad was in Special Forces in the first half of the '60's. He served at the Bay of Pigs, and then in West Germany, but he never set foot in South Vietnam. I guess Nodrog feels he was a coward because he was sent to Germany instead of Vietnam.

[Shakes head sadly]

148 Catttt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:10:21pm

119 Zombie

Ahh yes. I knew that someone more patient and expert than I would vet Corey's "logic." I didn't expect it quote so darned fast! :) Nice.

149 Mike C.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:10:23pm

# 29 Gordon

Ah, I knew it couldn't last. There's the Gordon of old !

Charles Johnson: Technically/scientifically rigorous methods used to advance an absurdity - that Bush didn't shirk military service.

Funny, I read all those posts and threads and I though what Charles was proposing was that the documents were poor forgeries. Silly me. Do make at least a basic attempt to stay on topic, eh ?

150 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:11:00pm

My grandfather served during WWI.

He never made it past boot camp in Mineola, NY.

I would tend to doubt that there were no connections whatsoever between the Bush campaign and the SwiftVets.

But I do know that any connections would have paled in comparison to those between the DNC and "MoveOn" [sic].

151 Charles  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:11:06pm

cathyf: I have to disagree; it's not trivially easy at all to exactly reproduce a typewritten document with Word. You would need to do extensive fiddling with typefaces, spacing, margins, line spacing, tabs, etc. etc. It would take a LONG time.

Note that my point is not that you couldn't produce a document that looks typewritten to an untrained eye. This is possible without a lot of work. But it's much much harder to create in Word an exact reproduction of a document produced on a typewriter.

I know this for a fact, because as one experiment I tried to do this, using a verified typewritten document from Bush's TANG days. In about an hour's work, I produced something that was a very rough approximation, not even close to the original.

152 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:12:01pm
153 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:12:32pm

#147 Iron Fist

[Shakes head sadly]

Seems we both have been doing that a lot lately...

154 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:12:41pm

The National Guard was a notorious rich/privileged/connected kid hangout during the Vietnam war era:

Colin Powell was particularly bitter about this. From his memoirs:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

My American Journey (1995) p. 148

So the LGF apologists for Bush on this site are being more than slightly disingenuous.

155 arf  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:12:45pm

#92

Hey, go easy on Evergreen State. They also gave us Lynda Barry (Ernie Pook's Comeek) and Matt Groening (creator of Life in Hell and The Simpsons).

That's gotta count for something.

156 Beagle  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:12:51pm

What matters:

How did CBS and the DNC coordinate on a smear campaign involving the Kerry people, Burkett, Mapes, C-BS higherups, and several other traditionally Left news outlets? Was it worth it?

Why did C-BS ignore their experts' warnings about authenticity?

Why did C-BS research this story for five years?

Is it good policy to hire rabid leftists like Mapes and send them to Texas for five years?

What GWB did in the TNG or ANG is truly fascinating, yawn, stuff though.

157 joesnoop  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:13:00pm

Columbia Journalism Review

P: (212) 854-1881
F: (212) 854-8580
E: cjr@columbia.edu

2950 Broadway
#207 Journalism Bldg, CU
New York, NY 10027-7004

Mr. Michael Hoyt, Executive Editor
P: (212) 854-1885
E: mh151@columbia.edu

Ms. Gloria Cooper, Deputy Executive Editor
P: (212) 854-1887
E: gc15@columbia.edu

Mr. Brent Cunningham, Managing Editor
P: (212) 854-1882
E: wbc7@columbia.edu


PLEASE BE POLITE! PRETTY PLEASE!

158 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:13:02pm

#145 VXBush

I totally agree, and please have a look at my #140 to have an example of moonbat's logic...

The moonbats use the words in a way that is delirious.

159 Cam  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:13:38pm

#146 reaganite:

Your Dad was Navy? How did you end up AF?

160 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:13:49pm

Charles,

it's not trivially easy at all to exactly reproduce a typewritten document with Word. You would need to do extensive fiddling with typefaces, spacing, margins, line spacing, tabs, etc. etc. It would take a LONG time

And, obviously, far too much trouble for Bill Burkett and 60 Minutes II.

161 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:13:57pm

#143 O.R. -

Boss: "How did the Jones contract turn into such a cluster{censored}?"

Slacker employee: "The accompanying analysis was long and technical, discouraging close examination."

162 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:13:57pm

#101 Reaganite: There's a big difference between being in active service and not serving in Vietnam vs. being in the National Guard. And you know it, Mr. Intellectual Dishonesty.

163 htom  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:14:51pm

We're going to see this cited in the CBS "investigation" (unless it's a trolling to see if we're still awake!)

Better to be thought a fool than to publish and prove that you are, I suppose.

164 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:15:22pm

#151 Charles

cathyf: I have to disagree; it's not trivially easy at all to exactly reproduce a typewritten document with Word. You would need to do extensive fiddling with typefaces, spacing, margins, line spacing, tabs, etc. etc. It would take a LONG time.

Shit Charles, I could have told you that! Have you ever tried to write a medal for someone and make it line up with the form? (BTW a form designed for typewriters)*grumble grimble stupid rules...

165 vxbush  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:15:57pm

#158 Poitiers-Lepanto

Exactly my point. Too many people will be swayed by his argument because they won't stop to think what it really says--or worse, that they can't figure out what he said. It bothers me to no end, and yet I have had to learn the hard way that too many people don't want to spend the time to learn.

166 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:16:47pm

I find it so infuriatingly laughable when intellectual cowards like Reaganite smear men who served their country in active duty, like Kerry and Gore did in Vietnam, as opposed to those who chose the rich-boy way out, like Bush in the National Guard. And then the verbal gymnastics to differentiate Clinton from Bush - shameless and hilarious!

What a bunch of apologist shills.

167 pilgrim shadow  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:16:49pm

Gordon et al,

At issue is not whether or not Bush 'shirked' his 'duty' to go to Vietnam...presuming that active combat service is a 'duty' and that avoiding such is 'shirking' one's duty, by which definition, many current politicians would have to plead guilty and would be ineligible for office. What CBS was trying to prove was that Bush used his father's influence to avoid service.

Certainly, by entering the Texas Air National Guard, he was attempting to avoid service. There was no garauntee, however, that entering the National Guard would keep him out of active combat. As a pilot, it would have been extremely unlikely that he would have served in any capacity that would have put him on the ground anyway. He would have been sitting in an airplane blanketing huge areas with carpet-bombs.

If he had served in such a capacity, would he be more of a hero? Curious...

By trying to prove he was guilty of 'shirking' his 'duty' to serve in Vietnam, something that would require knowledge of intentions which cannot be proven nor disproven, you are avoiding the question that CBS raised. Did Bush use family influence to avoid service. CBS attempted to reinforce their position with forged documents that seem to have been obtained by a known partisan operative...then were surprised when first bloggers, then Drudge and the radio-heads, then even some of their competitors picked up on their inept reporting.

Bottom line: They screwed up...because of their transparent political bias!

Worse: They have a history of it.

We care!

168 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:17:30pm

#133 Peacekeeper

LOL

Yes, for some, it is, no excuse.........Shame on you! LOL
And you were complaining you were sluggish........

169 jeff1999  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:18:37pm

The MSM's desperate flailing in the face of a new and obviously superior medium is really getting pathetic.

When all else fails (and all else has failed) simply make stuff up. It reminds me of the Iraqi information minister proclaiming victory as American tanks rolled into town a few blocks away.

170 blueroom127  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:18:45pm

Columbia needs to review their journalism

171 christheprofessor  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:18:53pm

Did an alligator get the troll? Haven't heard from it since people started responding to its questions....

172 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:19:32pm

Gordon -

I repeat my question to you which I asked way back in #63:

Are you/were you in favor of the Vietnam War, or not?

173 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:19:42pm

#154 Gordon
Also from page 148:

I am proud of the way American soldiers answered the call in a war so poorly conceived, conducted, and explained...

So tell me again where was Clinton?

174 Cam  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:19:43pm

#166 Gordon:

like Kerry and Gore did in Vietnam

You would consider toting around a camera for Stars and Stripes to be on par with combat duty?

Incidentally, do you think Albert Gore Sr. pulled any strings to make sure his boy wasn't involved in combat?

175 Malleus Dei  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:19:44pm

Corey Pein has a blog; it's at [Link: www.coreypein.com...]

He has a convenient contact link on that page so that you can email him.

176 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:20:18pm

Reaganite: Let me be the first to congratulate you on being named "Mr. Intellectual Dishonesty" by Gordon! This is sort of like being named "Mr. Bad Personal Hygiene" by Sid Vicious.

#161 Frank IBC--lol, I'm adding the "discouraging close examination" bit to my list of excuses, right up there with "Tourette's Syndrome".

177 christheprofessor  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:20:21pm

Oh, there it is...

178 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:20:47pm

#159 Cam

Your Dad was Navy? How did you end up AF?

Because my father was Navy! (36 years).

179 Cam  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:21:11pm

#176 Occasional Reader:

This is sort of like being named "Mr. Bad Personal Hygiene" by Sid Vicious

LOL!

180 Crusader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:21:20pm

"I find it so infuriatingly laughable when intellectual cowards like Reaganite smear men who served their country in active duty, like Kerry and Gore did in Vietnam, as opposed to those who chose the rich-boy way out, like Bush in the National Guard. And then the verbal gymnastics to differentiate Clinton from Bush - shameless and hilarious!"

So you, Gordon, are going to teach us about intellectual bravery and duty to country?

I have a better idea--why not FOAD?

181 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:22:00pm

You-know-who reminds me of ivy...morning glory...honeysuckle - an intellectual parasite that could not survive on its own, but wraps its tentacles around and attempts to slowly strangle its host...

182 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:22:02pm

#162 Gordon

There's a big difference between being in active service and not serving in Vietnam vs. being in the National Guard.

Tell that to all the reservists serving in Iraq fuck stick.

183 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:22:34pm

Gordon is right....

Bush did not go to Vietnam, it is as simple as that.
And Kerry went.

So there.

Bush was at home while Kerry was over in Nam killing gooks right and left, he said he did at the Winter Soldier hearings. He was raping babies, mutilating bodies, razing villages, shooting innocent villagers in the Green Zone........

184 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:22:43pm

#166 Nodrog

I find it so infuriatingly laughable when intellectual cowards like Reaganite smear men who served their country in active duty, like Kerry and Gore did in Vietnam, as opposed to those who chose the rich-boy way out, like Bush in the National Guard. And then the verbal gymnastics to differentiate Clinton from Bush - shameless and hilarious!

My Dad served in the Vietnam War for three years, not four months.

When the traitor Kerry returned after his measly four months, he trashed men like my Dad. Kerry never apologized for the lies he told to Congress that stabbed our soldiers in the back, including my own Dad.

Kerry was unfit for command. Our own current military voted OVERWHELMINGLY for President Bush NOT Kerry in this election.

Kerry deserved to lose. Thank heaven he did.

185 Boring Family Man  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:22:47pm

Can you see it now...

The Colombia School of Journalism and Blogging?

Neither can I. Journalists are running scared now that they can be critiqued.

186 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:23:15pm
I find it so infuriatingly laughable when intellectual cowards like Reaganite

Oh that's classic! How many years did your serve nodroG?

187 Intestinal Fortitude  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:23:23pm

#166 Gordon

Give us your take on Kerry in Vietnam.

188 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:23:26pm

#167 pilgrim shadow: I am not excusing CBS - anything which helped to get Dan Rather off the air is a GOOD thing.

I am just pointing out that the BIG story here would be if Bush's father DIDN'T use his influence and connections to get Bush into the National Guard.

Which, once again, wouldn't be a big story if:

1. The mainstream media didn't hate Bush so much that they would stoop to such forgery to "get" him;

and (my point)

2. Bush and his operatives didn't smear genuine war heroes like John McCain and John Kerry. Like Clinton, Bush should have just shut up about his less than sterling record, or perhaps owned up to it just as he has owned up to other aspects of his dissolute past before he reformed himself. Because he didn't do it, his hypocrisy deserves to be exposed. And even if there isn't a "smoking gun," you don't have to be Perry Mason to put two and two together.

189 Roger  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:23:40pm

#166 Gordon, so you have high distain for the National Guard and all who have served thru it?

190 gymnast  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:23:41pm

#166,Gordon. Don't use words that you know nothing about. "gymnastics" for one and most every other word for another.

191 AtlasShrugged  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:23:51pm

OT
ANN COULTER ON FOX!
LOVE ADORE WORSHIP THIS WOMAN!

192 blueroom127  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:24:28pm

Gordon

Bush is the choice of America (that includes you). Horrific tragedies have occured during his first term and the way he responded to them has proved to the majority of Americans that he is/was the right choice. His personal wealth and his record years before that have no impact on the fact that Afghan women can exist as human beings and Iraqi's are free from a murderous dictator and minority rule. AND THE DOCUMENTS WERE FALSE!

193 WriterMom  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:24:39pm

#145 vxbush

Big pat on the back to most of you who can reason. (I'm afraid, Gordon, I'm not yet willing to pat your back.)

You could probably brush his back.

194 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:24:53pm

#176 Occasional Reader

Let me be the first to congratulate you on being named "Mr. Intellectual Dishonesty" by Gordon! This is sort of like being named "Mr. Bad Personal Hygiene" by Sid Vicious.

A badge of honor I'll wear proudly!

195 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:25:12pm

While Gore filmed it..........BTW you should see Gore's private collection of gook ears hanging in his "private" study... At least Gore didn't throw his medals over the White House gate.......


Wait, did Gore get any medals?

196 Dianna  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:25:22pm

#151 Charles

In other words, you tried to prove your hypothesis was flawed. That's sound method.

Pein couldn't bother to note that, of course.

Grrrrrrr.

My letter is causing my screen to smoke. I think I'll leave it alone and go back to accounting. That's safer all around.

197 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:25:24pm

I am proud of the way American soldiers answered the call in a war so poorly conceived, conducted, and explained...

They were for the Vietnam war until they opposed it.

{Barf}

If one good thing has come from this experience, it is that the hoary "Chickenhawk" meme has finally had a stake thrust through its heart, after almost 20 years.

198 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:25:29pm

Oh, what the hell. Howdy Gordon!

verbal gymnastics to differentiate Clinton from Bush

Hmm, let's see:

Smoking pot with Oxford coeds

vs.

Flying an F-106...

Funny, I don't need many "verbal gymnastics" at all to explain the difference.

In any event, you're still dodging the question, Mr. Intellectual Dishonesty, Like, Squared. The CBS memos had nothing to do with Bush allegedly getting into the TANG to avoid Vietnam. They rather allegedly "proved" that he had shirked duty while in the Guard, and relied on political pressure to keep him out of trouble. The memos of course turned out to be forgeries. So why are you mischaracterizing this whole question? Oh, I already know, don't I.

199 AtlasShrugged  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:25:32pm

Coulter on with that shmuck Judge Napolitano-he acts and walks and pretends to be a conservative but he is a shill for the left

a blue on red clothing

200 Intestinal Fortitude  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:25:33pm

#183 Bubble Girl

You forgot to say Jengus Khan...I love to hear that :-P

201 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:26:17pm

#172 Frank IBC: Since I was four when it started in earnest and thirteen when it ended, my opinions on the Vietnam War at the time were not well-formed.

In retrospect, the Vietnam War looks like a huge mistake. What it looked like at the time I can't tell you. It turned out, of course, to be completely unnecessary, since the Soviet Union would have collapsed in 1989 even if it had never been fought.

202 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:26:50pm

#188 Nodrog

I am just pointing out that the BIG story here would be if Bush's father DIDN'T use his influence and connections to get Bush into the National Guard.

How does everyone else get into the National Guard?

Do people have to PAY THE GUARD TO SERVE IN IT?

I know a guy who served in the National Guard. He got in by applying.

So did George W. Bush.

It's not an exclusive club that denies 99.99% of applicants.

203 Pamela  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:26:57pm

#169 jeff1999


ah you're talking about the Baghdad Bob School Of Journalism?

NodroG
The real shirkers were the ones who burned thier draft cards and hightailed it to Canada, the dodgers who used college deferements.

204 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:27:10pm

#165 VXBush

It bothers me to no end

I think that the left has worked for forty years to make school EASY just to reach the point where the left can indoctrinate and brainwash without problems.

Not by chance Bush launched "No child left behind", that asks for tighter checks on the REAL preparation of the kids.
It's a first good move.
Homeschooling and vouchers another.
The educational value of Blogs like LGF another (as you said in your post).

But everyday I do meet people whose "titles" make me think that they can...think...and they don't.

Take the other example that I quote all the time:
the trolls who come here are UNABLE to debate and they DO create a REAL damage to THEIR OWN cause. But the ignorance and the brainwashing are so deep that they don't realize that the more they speak the more they convince (me, and, I presume, others) to stay millions of miles away from anything leftist.

205 Old Dad  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:27:27pm

Methinks that the CJR will come to regret this foray into the absurd. The "journalist" author clearly has no idea what he is talking about.

Poor Nick Coleman is simply an idiot and is getting what he deserves. Master Corey is in for the spanking of his life. Oh well, live and learn.

206 Geepers  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:27:57pm

Gee Corey, no condemnation of a complete lack of journalistic integrety on the part of the MSM? (And yeah ya condesending peon I knew that stood for mainstream media.)

You seem more concerned with discrediting the people who pointed out the lies.

I guess you subscibe to the "new" journalism, where reports just make shit up, eh?

Document and handwriting examiner Marcel Matley analyzed the documents for CBS News. He says he believes they are real.”

— Dan Rather on the September 10 CBS Evening News.

vs.

There’s no way that I, as a document expert, can authenticate them.”

— Quote from Marcel Matley in a September 14 Washington Post story by Howard Kurtz and Michael Dobbs.

207 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:28:10pm

#198 Occasional Reader

Flying an F-106...

*pssst F-102s...

208 TotallySirius  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:28:21pm

I just finished reading that strange piece of work and I think it gave me brain damage.

It looks a aweful lot like he's blaming us for taking down cbs and he's defending cbs et al.

In his criticisms he says bloggers jumped the gun on the story(but not cbs) and our facts are innacurate(but not cbs) plus he defends "star Mary Mapes" and "dithering Dan" by using the 'fallacy of the false burden'(cbs doesn't have to prove it is correct but bloggers have to prove cbs was wrong).

Bwahahahaha

OT Ann Coulter on Foxnews giving the obstructionist dems in the senate hell for their actions on judicial nominations.She made a great point that the dems knew they were losing their grip on power so they have been turning towards liberal courts to push their agenda.

Gotta love that woman.

209 Buckeye Abroad  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:28:58pm

#154 Gordo

The National Guard was a notorious rich/privileged/connected kid hangout during the Vietnam war era:

That's a lie. The notorious rich/priveleged/connected kid hangout during the Vietnam War era was college.

Source: All my male HS teachers from the 80's.

210 Frank IBC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:29:04pm

Gordon -

In retrospect, the Vietnam War looks like a huge mistake. What it looked like at the time I can't tell you. It turned out, of course, to be completely unnecessary, since the Soviet Union would have collapsed in 1989 even if it had never been fought.

So why are you criticizing Bush for not participating in it directly?

211 DocMartyn  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:29:16pm

Here is his c.v. Note:-

"Voted "most likely to bring down a presidential administration" by Columbia classmates."
Glad to see they have no ethics in Columbia.

Corey Pein

New York, NY

corey@coreypein.com


WORK EXPERIENCE

Editorial fellow -- June 2004 to present

Columbia Journalism Review

New York, NY

* Wrote for the magazine and the Campaign Desk website. Edited the "Currents" section, featuring short articles, interviews, research-intensive statistics and charts.

Editorial intern -- Summer 2002

The American Prospect

Washington, DC

* Fact-checked, researched and proofread articles and weblog entries. Screened submissions.

Assistant editor -- Summer 2001

Environmental Practice (quarterly professional journal)

Olympia, WA

* Edited manuscripts, researched stories and found peer reviewers for technical articles.

Managing editor -- February 2001 to June 2002

The Cooper Point Journal (weekly student newspaper)

Olympia, WA

* Led production and enforced deadlines. Hired and trained staff. Edited for libel and clarity.

EDUCATION

Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism

New York, NY

M.S., magazine journalism -- May 2004

* Reported on media, military affairs, health and technology. Studied First Amendment law and ethics.

The Evergreen State College

Olympia, WA

B.A., liberal arts -- September 2003

* Studied economics, politics and philosophy. Thesis on domestic propaganda in the war on terrorism.

Wenatchee Valley College North

Omak, WA

Attended for combined high school and college credit -- September 1998 to June 2000

HONORS

Scholarships -- For Columbia: Wayne W. and Frances G. Knight Parrish Scholarship ($20,000); James P. Herzog Scholarship ($2,000); Society of Professional Journalists, William O. Douglas Pro Chapter Scholarship ($500).

Citations -- "Quizzing the Questioners" (Extra! magazine January/February 2003) used in the syllabus for the Press, Politics, and Public Policy course at Harvard University’s John F. Kennedy School of Government, 2004.

Voted "most likely to bring down a presidential administration" by Columbia classmates.

212 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:29:42pm

#207 reaganite:

Really? I thought he flew the Dart, not the Dagger?

213 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:29:42pm

#182 Reaganite: Intellectually dishonest yet again. With a slimmed-down all-volunteer army instead of a huge draft-driven force, there is a much greater chance of being called to active duty today than there was in 1967.

But you knew that, didn't you? George W. Bush sure as hell knew it, along with all the other rich boys of privilege and connections.

214 michaelg  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:29:50pm

188 Gordon

Bush and his operatives didn't smear genuine war heroes like John McCain and John Kerry

Pardon me Nodrog, I just coughed up one of my nuts laughing. How can you put McCain and Kerry in the same sentence?

Kerry volunteered for the Naval Reserve to avoid combat. Kerry volunteered for Swiftboats when they patrolled the coast OUT OF COMBAT. Kerry protested to his CO when the role of the Swiftboats was changed to combat.

Oh shit, I forgot he got three purple hearts for shaving nicks, that must make him a hero.

215 NY Nana  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:30:01pm

A great editorial on Columbia: Columbia's Anti-Semites

The ever-clueless New York Civil Liberties Union has leaped head-first into the ongoing controversy sur rounding alleged anti-Israel bias and intimidation of students at Columbia University by siding — surprise, surprise — with the accused professors.

Indeed, the NYCLU — proving that it doesn't need Norman Siegel in charge to look through the wrong end of the telescope — charges that an investigation into the students' charges is "likely to descend into an inquisition."

Actually, there's little chance of that: As The New York Sun reported, Columbia President Lee Bollinger has stacked the deck of his fact-finding committee, choosing members who all have a record of left-wing activism — and two of whom themselves have a public record of anti-Israel bias.

216 Intestinal Fortitude  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:30:50pm

#201 Gordon

It turned out, of course, to be completely unnecessary

Indirectly, that's a good take on Kerry.

217 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:31:46pm

#212 Occasional Reader

I thought he flew the Dart, not the Dagger?

Lawn Dart but an f-102 all the same...

218 azul93gt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:31:48pm

#154 Gordon 1/3/2005 02:12PM PST

The National Guard was a notorious rich/privileged/connected kid hangout during the Vietnam war era:

If that is what you choose to believe then your beef is with the National Guard not with Bush.

National guard service does not equate to "shirking one's responsibility." as much as it may dismay you that Bush wasn't in Nam leading a human wave assaults on a machine gun implacement like all the Dems were.

219 Elcid  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:31:54pm

Psychological Problems and Disorders

This information is primarily for consumers, and LGF posters, to help you understand basic psychological problems, and to help you decide when you, a family member, a friend, or a cretin, oh sorry, certain poster. The name of this cretin oh sorry, certain is usually spelled backwards, would benefit from a consultation with a psychologist.

[Link: www.psychologyinfo.com...]

220 vxbush  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:32:12pm

#193 WriterMom

Ew! As if!

#204 Poiters-Lepanto

You ascribe more planning to the liberals than I do. Was it intentional, or was it just a desire not to work as hard?

I gotta go, but I remember the kids I went to college with who couldn't cut it in their major, so they got just enough to major in it and then teach high school. Scared me in a big way to think of these folks teaching any children.

Gotta go...might catch up on this when I get home later....

221 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:32:32pm

#213 Gordon
Ill ask you again, how long did you serve? Shirker...

222 Semper Gumbi  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:32:41pm

Gordon:

There's a big difference between being in active service and not serving in Vietnam vs. being in the National Guard.

Not really. Lots of Guard and Reserve served in Vietnam. Many didn't come home except in a flag draped box. Lots didn't. Bush could have. Others in the TANG did.

But it still doesn't matter, except to Bush Haters.

By the way, have you ever served; Active duty, Reserve, Guard?

And don't you think it the least bit strange that those who serve, whether in combat or otherwise, overwhelmingly support President Bush? Hasn't it occured to you that this might show that, to those who have been there - done that, Bush's record in the National Guard IS hororable, especially when compared to former President Clinton, who most in the military found contemptible, not the least for openly dodging the draft.

223 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:33:39pm

#184 rightasrain

As did my dad, active duty AF - two years in Saigon. When he came back, he was called a babykiller by my classmates at Berkeley. Kerry is a disgrace, but he's all the LLL have if they want someone to call a war hero.

Your dad and my dad (and reaganite's and others on this board too numerous to mention) - it's a good feeling when you look back and think of coming from parents like that.

224 AtlasShrugged  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:34:27pm

#201 Gordon

In retrospect, the Vietnam War looks like a huge mistake. What it looked like at the time I can't tell you. It turned out, of course, to be completely unnecessary, since the Soviet Union would have collapsed in 1989 even if it had never been fought.

Oh really? How the f*ck do you know? Your arm;s too short to box with G-d. And the mission in Vietnam was an admirable one, like it or not.............but you can't orchestrate a war from Wahington, the shackels should have been removed from the Military's appendages

225 Bostonian  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:34:50pm

#188, Gordon.
It is most disingenuous the way that you refer to "Bush and his operatives." You say it this way because you want to blame Bush himself, but you can't, because he has never said anything against Kerry's service, nor McCain's.

Let's put aside what the SBVT said, because I know you won't listen to them. Instead, consider what Kerry said to the Senate in 1970 about atrocities "committed with full knowledge" "at all levels of command." Consider that vets returned from Vietnam and got spat on at airports.

But you're saying that the *only* reason that any vets would speak against Kerry is to help Bush?

You pretend these men do not exist and you dishonor them by doing so.

McCain dismissed them in the same way, which is why I and many others consider him a dishonorable person.

226 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:34:52pm

My mistake, it was the F-102.

I had a model F-102 when I was a kid. But I did not serve in Vietnam.

227 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:35:12pm

#211 DocMartyn

"Voted "most likely to bring down a presidential administration" by Columbia classmates."

Should have voted him "most likely to avoid doing anything remotely related to research for his articles because he's too busy sticking his head up his ass."

He didn't do a single bit of real investigation on this blog-smear.

He made stupid claims that can be proven false incredibly easily (which is precisely what Rather did.)

He will be a star in the malicious MSM, no doubt, because he has no morals and zero intellectual honesty.

It's good that these guys don't have the final word on things anymore.

228 zombie  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:37:00pm

Thanks to Gordon, we're way off-topic now.

The varieties of moral and combat merit to various politicians' military careers has nothing to do the issue at hand: the forgeries. I don't care what Clinton, McCain or Gordon himself did or didn't do in the military. In fact, it's not even germane what George W. Bush did in the military. What's germane is that CBS used forged documents to condemn Bush. MANY is the time that convictions have been thrown out against obviously guilty defendents because the prosecutor used phony evidence against them. It happens frequently: a DA thinks (for example) some guy committed a murder, but the DA has no hard evidence against him, so the DA fakes up a phony murder weapon or coerced lying eyewitness to convince the jury. They guy is convicted, but then it is later revealed that the evidence was faked. In those cases, the conviction is ALWAYS thrown out, even if the guy is obviously guilty anyway. Using tainted evidence destroys your own argument.

I don't care if Bush sat around smoking cigars all day in the National Guard. NOT IMPORTANT. What IS important is that a crime (fraud) was committed to slander him in public.

229 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:37:34pm

#226 Occasional Reader

I had a model F-102 when I was a kid. But I did not serve in Vietnam.

Shirker!

230 pilgrim shadow  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:38:40pm

Gordon

Lots of assumptions...

Like...assuming that Bush's father DID try to get him out of active combat.

assuming that Bush WAS trying to avoid active combat.

assigning the title 'war hero' to people who are just doing what they signed up or were drafted to do.

assuming Bush had any control over the Swiftboat Veterans...

231 gymnast  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:38:52pm

#211, DocMartyn. Amusing background that the snotnosed shitbird Corey has. Methinks he is flying too close to the sun. A bit like another Cory from Evergreen State. That story of a previous Cory ends flat and is better appreciated in Peoria.

232 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:39:01pm

Remember, folks, according to Gordonlogic:

- It was wrong of Bush to "send his operatives" [translation; it was wrong of any conservative pundits to note that...] to attack Kerry's Vietnam service. Even though Kerry himself would never shut the f*ck up about said service, including the parts he made up. Bush, and every conservative in the country, was supposed to just smile and nod.

- Since the Bush family may or may not have used political influence to get George W. a spot in the TANG, therefore it's perfectly acceptable for a major news network to put forward laughably badly-forged documents to "prove" that he didn't meet the service requirements while in TANG.

Understand those two points, and you'll have the key to understanding Gordonlogic.

233 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:39:01pm

#214 Sir Michael of G

It must make Kerry cringe when he reads of real heroism like that Marine who, after being shot twice, grabbed a live grenade and held it under his body to save his comrades. '

(Damn, I'm getting the tears just thinking about him. Do we know if he's been nominated for the MoH and if there's anything we can do?)

234 Elcid  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:39:15pm

Now on subject....first, isn't it misspelled and secondly, isn't there a consonant missing...Corey Pein?

Be blessed Charles and other WebLoggers...be blessed that john kerry wasn't elected...there would be infinitely more then words, directed toward 'Bloggers'.

235 Semper Gumbi  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:40:27pm
2. Bush and his operatives didn't smear genuine war heroes like John McCain and John Kerry. Like Clinton, Bush should have just shut up about his less than sterling record, or perhaps owned up to it just as he has owned up to other aspects of his dissolute past before he reformed himself. Because he didn't do it, his hypocrisy deserves to be exposed. And even if there isn't a "smoking gun," you don't have to be Perry Mason to put two and two together.

Two points: (1) Bush has never said Mr. Kerry's service was other than honorable. Mr. Kerry can't claim the same about Mr. Bush. (2) Mr. Bush, to my knowledge, has never tried to politicize his National Guard service. All he ever says is that he served in the Guard, was honorably discharged, and enjoyed it. It is left to his enemies to try and politicize his service.

Oh, and could you provide links to the character assasinations of Mr. McCain by Bush and his operatives during the 2000 primaries. I've looked before but couldn't find anything except references on Lefty web-sites of dubious character. Thanks.

236 rabidfox  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:40:29pm

Steve C. Thanks for the link. Needed something to lift my day.

48 hr rule on that Zaqa... scum. But can hope.

237 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:40:51pm

#223 Carolina Girl

As did my dad, active duty AF - two years in Saigon. When he came back, he was called a babykiller by my classmates at Berkeley. Kerry is a disgrace, but he's all the LLL have if they want someone to call a war hero.
Your dad and my dad (and reaganite's and others on this board too numerous to mention) - it's a good feeling when you look back and think of coming from parents like that.

Thanks, Carolina Girl! You're absolutely right!

Also, it's good to remember that Kerry not only has one generation or so to contend with for the soldiers he trashed in Vietnam -- he also has the CHILDREN of Vietnam Vets to contend with for the next several decades.

This ought to keep him out of the White House permanently, thank goodness!

Thanks again and bless your Dad, Carolina Girl!

238 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:41:02pm

#229 Reaganite:

Shirker!

Hey, I pretended to engage in elaborate dogfights against a (model) North Vietnamese MiG-21! So my Vietnam service bears certain similarities to Kerry's.

239 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:41:14pm

#220 VXBush


the liberals

We should really stop using this word when we speak about the totalitarian left that in the last thirtyfive years or so has tried whatever possible against America.

They hate the FREE market economy, they hate individualism, they hate everything that has to do with Liberty.

"The totalitarians" is quite fine, when used for the marxist-fascists.

Ah, and since the disease is in this thread:
since when the left has stopped spitting on the Vietnam Veterans and has stopped calling them murderers and rapists ?
Last time I checked, they were leading the march of the "peace" movement, that has allowed millions of Vietnamese to be massacred by the commies.

And now they are against the war in Iraq, they were against the war in Afghanistan.

But in thirty years they will attack some Republican Candidate "because" he was not in Iraq.

I accept any bet.

240 Dianna  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:41:23pm

Zombie, as always, you are on point. Thank you.

241 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:41:58pm

reaganite --

Was the F-102 also referred to as a widowmaker?

If I'm good, can I be intellectually dishonest like you? It sure as hell beats the alternative!

242 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:42:00pm

#221 Reaganite: I have never served in the military. And, if I ever run for office (ho ho ho) I'll certainly admit it.

Being too young for the draft, and too old for mandatory registration, helped.

But the main reason I wouldn't have been offered a job in the armed forces even if I had tried is that I am legally blind.

243 Baldy  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:43:27pm
On September 11, a self-proclaimed typography expert, Joseph Newcomer, copied the experiment, and posted the results on his personal Web site

Columbia has forgotten about: Joseph "Newcomer," an obviously fake name. He copied the experiment 9-11, the anniversary of the Pinochet coup! Who did the coup? The CIA, with made-up names. I wonder where Mr. "Newcomer," if that is his name, was, in 1973?!?
/do I need to say sarcasm off?

244 Buckeye Abroad  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:44:24pm

#166 Gore-doo

I find it so infuriatingly laughable when intellectual cowards like Reaganite smear men who served their country in active duty,...

Can you provide links to Reaganite's past posts to validate your accusation?

.. like Kerry and >Gore did in Vietnam, as opposed to those who chose the rich-boy way out, like Bush in the National Guard.

Hey, journalist Gore beat out Kerry by 2 weeks for being in country. What a hero.

So all males serving in the NG through 1964- 1972 are "rich boys?" Do you really believe that?!

245 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:45:33pm

Intestinal Fortitude


.... at times we had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Jenjus Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.


So in addition to the normal ravage of war, they also generally ravaged and also did some particular ravaging....

246 KWH  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:45:42pm
George W. Bush sure as hell knew it, along with all the other rich boys of privilege and connections.

Money or penis envy gordon?
Seems if it's money, you should condemn kerry as he is by far richer (with duhreeezers money and money from his first rich wife) than Bush. Please be consistant, you're embarassing me. Now, if it's penis envy........maybe you're in the wrong board.
Gotta love America and the rich capitalistic pigs in it. Oink, oink!

247 hm  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:45:47pm
This proves nothing — you could make a replica of almost any document using Word. Yet Newcomer’s aggressive conclusion is based on this logical error.


Compare to Zombie #119.

Rather ironic that Corey Pein should be criticizing other people's logic.

248 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:46:29pm

#241 Carolina Girl:

Was the F-102 also referred to as a widowmaker?

I think that was more the F-104s' moniker. Although training for any supersonic jet aircraft ain't exactly like learning needlepoint, and was even less so in the 1960s-early 70s.

249 Pamela  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:46:50pm

#223 Carolina Girl

My cousin served two tours in Vietnam in the army after being drafted. He was ok untill he came home, and go spit on, harrassed, etc... He wore his dress uniform to a family wedding. After the ceremony we all were waiting outside to go to the reception, and some one from a passing car threw ice cream on him and called him a baby killer. Those kind of people bought the Kerry lines during his speach in 1971 hook line and sinker, and didn't bother to think and question Kerry.

250 Roger  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:47:01pm

#203 Pamela

ah you're talking about the Baghdad Bob School Of Journalism?

And an old school it is. I just got done reading "Six Days of War" by Michael Oren. Amazing how the Baghdad Bob School Of Journalism effected the historical a$$ whupping the IAF and IDF handed Nasser's Egypt and the rest. All because Nasser's Egypt and company practiced the Baghdad Bob School Of Journalism and lied to the Soviets about how they where really taking the fight all the way to Tel Aviv; otherwise the Soviets would not have delayed a resolution for a cease fire that the Islaelis would have been bound to recognize.

Another thing from the book was that when McNamara was first informed that war could break out, he predicted that if the Israelis(all alone) strike first it would be over in a week; 10 days if Nasser's Egypt struck first.

The book also described the stress and agonizing decisions the Israeli leaders had to indure and make leading up to the war.

251 SoCalJustice  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:47:17pm

(#226) O.R.

I had a model F-102 when I was a kid. But I did not serve in Vietnam.

Please tell me you were at least "Smoking pot with Oxford coeds" ....

252 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:47:37pm

#248 Occasional Reader

Thanks! Always good to get one's terminology correct.

253 christheprofessor  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:47:57pm

What does it say about the CSJ that they even have a category "most likely to bring down a presidential administration" for which students can vote?

254 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:48:04pm

#243 Baldy:

I wonder where Mr. "Newcomer," if that is his name, was, in 1973?!?

He was in Viña del Mar, plotting the coup along with a similarly disguised Lef-tenant "Bat" Guano!

255 Dianna  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:48:29pm

Oh, for heaven's sake, Gordon, playing the pity card at this late date?

256 gymnast  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:48:48pm

#242, Gordon. Thats a damb shame Gordon. Willful blindness compounded by legal blindness must be a real bitch. You got a drivers license?

257 zulubaby  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:48:54pm

zombie (#228)

Spot on.

258 Geepers  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:49:38pm

Gordon doesn't get it. The MSM tried to discredit GW with the "shirker" charge, twice.

And in 5 years of digging the best Mary Mapes and CBS could come up with was forging documents.

And no one cared. GW got elected and re-elected.

It's over you freakin' dumbass, W won. Why are you still so concerned about his Texas Air National Guard Service anyway?

259 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:49:41pm

By the way, there is a BIG difference between attacking Kerry for his actions AFTER leaving Vietnam, and his actions while in service there.

I have never claimed that the latter should have been immune from attack. I personally think that his outrage can be looked at in two different ways, either as personal courage to speak out against a heinous wrong, or as borderline-treason to his nation and his fellow servicemen.

What I objected to was the unprincipled and shameless attack upon his service record while in Vietnam. The Swift Boat Shills have opened up a new, vicious, even evil chapter in American politics with their actions. No one's service to their country is safe from partisan lying and shillery now.

260 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:50:17pm

#251 SCJ:

Please tell me you were at least "Smoking pot with Oxford coeds"

Well, sorry to disappoint. But I was (inadvertently) sniffing model airplane glue (while putting together my F-102), and thinking confused thoughts about Farrah Fawcett.

261 foreign devil  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:50:36pm

Talk about flogging a dead horse, this one won't stay down, will it? What is this moron doing questioning these documents and recreations at this late date? The discussion has moved on. Trying, no doubt, the make a name for himself at this late date on a discussion that has been hammered down and taped over for several months now.

262 zombie  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:51:08pm

This is the real pitiable part of the guy's resume:

Editorial intern -- Summer 2002
The American Prospect
Washington, DC
* Fact-checked, researched and proofread articles and weblog entries.

Hey Charles, you better watch out! This guy actually spent a summer proofreading weblog entries.
Ooooooooh! [swoon...]

263 Crimsonfisted  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:51:29pm

#228 zombie

I don't care if Bush sat around smoking cigars all day in the National Guard. NOT IMPORTANT. What IS important is that a crime (fraud) was committed to slander him in public.

Totally on point and correct. Why Blather and Mapes still have jobs is beyond me.

264 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:51:56pm

#249 Pamela

Kerry was so anxious to get his political career going that he didn't care who he smeared or the "collateral damage" of his actions upon the vets returning home -- our nation STILL hasn't paid the debt to them.

Candidate Flip-Flop didn't come back to "stop the war" - oh please - if there had been greater political hay to be gained from being FOR the war rather than against it, Kerry would have been marching around in his dress uniform all over the place.

I have a Gucci knock-off at home with greater claims to being genuine than John Kerr.

265 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:52:05pm

#259 Nodrog

What I objected to was the unprincipled and shameless attack upon his service record while in Vietnam. The Swift Boat Shills have opened up a new, vicious, even evil chapter in American politics with their actions. No one's service to their country is safe from partisan lying and shillery now.

Oh, trying to make excuses for Rather's partisan lying and shillery, eh?

The Swift Boat Vets didn't lie. They told the truth.

Kerry's service in Vietnam was Mickey Mouse, which is why he replayed events for his own Pluto Movie Camera while he was still there.

266 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:52:31pm
267 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:53:48pm

#255 Dianna: Reaganite asked. So I answered.

And no pity is necessary. Radial keratotomy took care of the problem.

268 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:54:06pm

Gordon

The Swift Boat Shills have opened up a new, vicious, even evil chapter in American politics with their actions

Yes. This is how you lefties call the old Lady Truth.
But She is patient.

And, btw, I am sorry that last week I made a joke against you that implied being blind.
I didn' t know.
And if I had known, I wouldn't have.

This is from your friend the nazi "ayeeeh" P-L.

269 Luigi  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:54:13pm

Article about blogs here that's listed on page one of Google News, and doesn't mention Wonkette.

270 Bob with one O  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:54:49pm

I have to make a confession. My name is Bob and I'm a shirker. When President Reagan decided to rescue those med students in Grenada, I...stayed at Fitzsimmons with my unit.


/hypnotized by Gordo

271 SoCalJustice  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:55:05pm

(#260) O.R.

Well, sorry to disappoint. But I was (inadvertently) sniffing model airplane glue (while putting together my F-102), and thinking confused thoughts about Farrah Fawcett.

Still, that may be Presidential material yet.

272 Buckaroo  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:55:24pm

# 259

For the last time asshole, the Swiftees have **affidavits**. Kerry has a few feet of home movie film.

STFU please!

273 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:55:30pm

#265 rightasrain

I don't recall John O'Neill changing his position on John Kerry in 33 years, do you? When asked, O'Neill said "I didn't care if the people of Massachusetts wanted to elect him as a Senator, but I DAMN SURE cared when he decided he wanted to be Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. I wasn't going to be silent any longer."

274 cf martin  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:55:46pm

nodroG seems to be living in a November 1st world.

I like glenn Beck's GloatFest. Brings it all back for me.

It's probably rude to make the obvious jokes about being legally blind and LLL...

/sorry in advance

275 Bostonian  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:56:43pm

#259:
Gordon, true, nobody who lied about his fellow troops is safe these days, now that we have the internet.

You don't actually reply to anyone, though, do you? Spambots aren't usually smart enough for that.

276 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:57:52pm

#271 SCJ:

Still, that may be Presidential material yet.

Outstanding! I'm gonna launch my campaign right away, and I'd really like you to consider being my campaign manager. I'm an atheist conservative Democrat Bush supporter, and I...

hello?

hello?

277 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:58:30pm

Hey, I'm Legally Blind too. But it didn't stop me from getting my Doctorate in Medicine. Nope, I do have a Handicap Parking spot next to the ER where I am a Licensed Physician treating patients in a Trauma Unit....

278 azul93gt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:58:34pm
*No one's service to their country is safe from partisan lying and shillery now. -Gordon

*It's OK to trash Bush's service though

279 SoCalJustice  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:58:48pm

OT

Richard Gere Urges Palestinians to Vote

Richard Gere has joined a pro-peace group to motivate Palestinians to vote in next week’s presidential elections.

Gere, with an Islamic cleric and a Greek Orthodox Church official, recorded a public service announcement calling on the Palestinians to vote in the January 9 election to replace Yasser Arafat.

“Hi, I’m Richard Gere and I’m speaking for the entire world. We’re with you during this election time. It’s really important: Get out and vote,” Gere said.

He ended the 80-second announcement produced by the pro-peace group One Voice with an appeal in Arabic: ”Take part in the elections.”

The advert is to be aired on Palestinian TV and Arabic satellite channels in the next few days, said Fathi Darwish, a Palestinian director of One Voice.

The group tries to harness the power of ordinary citizens to push for creation of a Palestinian state to live peacefully next to Israel. The people power is backed by Hollywood stars like Danny DeVito. Its internet website claims support from actors Brad Pitt, Jennifer Aniston and Edward Norton.

“We chose Richard Gere because he believes that freedom and liberty are for everyone,” Darwish said. “He is a known supporter of the Palestinian people,” he said.

280 Dianna  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:58:56pm

I have been reserving judgement on you for a long time, Gordon, but that just does it. You played the pity card. Then you bring out the 'but I'm just fine now' bit to deflect it.

This is called 'being a weasel.'

You just broke my tolerance meter, and I fully empathize with those who think you're too much of a jerk to be put up with.

281 Catttt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 12:59:27pm

Gordon said

The Swift Boat Shills have opened up a new, vicious, even evil chapter in American politics with their actions. No one's service to their country is safe from partisan lying and shillery now.

The Swift Boat Vets had truth on their side. Calling them liars begs the issue. Be assured that you are not safe, should you lie or shill here. That is, you will be vetted.

Re legally blind - sorry to hear that - is that without correction or with? I was in Army ROTC in college for one year, in spite of the fact that I am nearsighted. Alas, I was way over the max on my corrective lens diopters allowed, but I had a great year. I still have my Veterans of Foreign Wars medal (best female cadet). I also was in the best shape of my life. (We got to run a water hazards course at the Air Force Academy - what fun.)

282 Grand Slither  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:00:00pm

Gordon,

Maybe GWB was like many of the flight students I knew when I went through - he wanted to be a fast-mover pilot like his Dad. At that time, it wouldn't have surprised me if the Air Force/Navy/USMC had a glut of pilots, or couldn't guarantee a timely slot in flight school and the Nat'l Guard could. Or maybe the USAF/USN/USMC would have stuck him in some rock-painting ground billet until a flight slot opened. Everyone I knew wanted to fly NOW, not later.

Too many maybe's? They were all existing real-life considerations when I was joining up. It's very plausible GWB faced them, too. Unlike the baseless & breathlessss speculation vomited forth from you & other unknowledgeable L3's.

If GWB had just joined up for cynical, resume-enhancing purposes, he could have volunteered for duty surrounded by dedicated armed guards, or maybe he could have signed up for non-hazardous patrol boat duty. He would not have signed up for duty where there is a dead certainty either you or one of your close friends will be killed during tranining (i.e., outside of combat) as well as what is predictable in a war.

Muckin Foron.

Get over it. You lost. Twice. To Bush.

283 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:00:41pm

#273 Carolina Girl

I don't recall John O'Neill changing his position on John Kerry in 33 years, do you? When asked, O'Neill said "I didn't care if the people of Massachusetts wanted to elect him as a Senator, but I DAMN SURE cared when he decided he wanted to be Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. I wasn't going to be silent any longer."

Nope, I sure don't.

G-d bless him for coming forward when the nation needed him.

We could NOT have a Commander in Chief like Kerry, whether in war or out of it.

The Swift Boat Vets kept their cool for over 30 years. Few have been as patient in standing up against an injustice done to them personally than these guys.

They picked exactly the right reason to stand up now - in service to their country.

Kerry is unfit for command.

284 cf martin  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:01:22pm

#277

That's why I said sorry in advance. I cannot hold a candle to your accomplishments. I should research where I can register to be legally stooopid.

285 azul93gt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:01:36pm

Gordo,

We're not that stupid so stop pretending like you care about military honor when you equate the activities of Comrade Klinkton to a National Guard fighter pilot's.

286 Karl Rove  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:01:54pm

Wow, nodroG gets his own thread today! You lucky dog, you. Atts a good boy. Sit!

Look, anyone who doesn't think the Dubya's parentage has given him opportunities that most of us would not have is an idiot. Of course, being Bush Jr. has helped him along. Dubya wouldn't be the POTUS if he was George W. O'Malley.

So fucking what? I think we all came to grips with that 4 years ago. Are we now supposed to be shocked to learn that Dubya's daddy was kind of an important guy? Do we not know that George H. W. Bush wasn't the PRESIDENT OF THE FRICKING USA? AND VP AND THE DIRECTOR OF THE CIA BEFORE THAT?

Dubya has connections? No shit. We had no fucking clue.

This is about the memos. The memos don't discuss Dubya getting into the Guard. They purportedly discuss his record being illegally mopped up while he was in. We don't know that this happened. The only evidence we have is forged memos, or no evidence at all.

You're only proving that you're full of shit.

Now roll over.

287 Bob with one O  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:02:45pm

Legally blind. 20/400 best corrected visual acuity.

Doc, I'm even more impressed.

Gordon, RK huh? I'm happy for you.

288 SoCalJustice  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:02:50pm

(#276) O.R.

I'm gonna launch my campaign right away, and I'd really like you to consider being my campaign manager. I'm an atheist conservative Democrat Bush supporter, and I...

Fret not, we just might have to adjust the ambitions a bit. You can still be President. President of what, is the question though?

The Adriana Lima fan club?

The D.C. Citizens for Hand Guns Lobby?

289 Buckeye Abroad  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:03:22pm

#259 Gore-doo

The Swift Boat Shills have opened up a new, vicious, even evil chapter in American politics with their actions.

Has Kerry released the last 93 pages of his military records yet? Why were most servicmen who had contact with Kerry so negative? Did we ever get to see his last DD214 from active service (not the amended one from the late 70's)?

Actually if you have nothing to hide about your military service, you sign the SF 180 and the let the press hounds sniff around.

290 michaelg  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:03:46pm

233 Carolina Girl

Taking a grenade blast like that is heroism, pure and simple. For the honor and the dignity of that Marine, I won't mention any other names in this post.

291 zuukie  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:03:47pm

There's an old saying that when you have nothing original to say and you want attention, just attack someone with stature. The little pipsqueak wants his moment in the sun. Unfortunately for him, his smear job will follow him thanks to the internet. Anything he writes under his own name will be viewed as another possible work of fiction. The world is not as forgiving as the CBS establishment and journalism school teachers

292 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:05:17pm

#281 Cattt: I could always see, it's just that my vision was so poor as to not be fully correctible, with either contact lenses or glasses. After the surgery it is, at least to the point where I have been issued a driver's license. The glasses I wear are still coke-bottle bottoms, which is why I wear contacts.

Anyway, the point for Reaganite was not that he was picking on a helpless cripple, but rather that I was not a candidate for membership in the armed forces. I'm not claiming that I would have entered even if eligible, but for me it wasn't an option.

Having revealed more about myself than I intended, I will now retire from this thread.

293 hm  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:05:36pm

#262 zombie,

This is the real pitiable part of the guy's resume:

Editorial intern -- Summer 2002
The American Prospect
Washington, DC
* Fact-checked, researched and proofread articles and weblog entries.

Hey Charles, you better watch out! This guy actually spent a summer proofreading weblog entries.
Ooooooooh! [swoon...]

Perhaps he should consider becoming a proofreader, seeing as that is where his strenghts lie.

294 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:05:46pm

Folks,

I have said to Gordon that I am sorry and he disappeared.

C'mon, Nodrog, come back, nobody derails a thread like you.
I didn't mean to ruin your stereotypes.
I am nasty and nazi and whatever you want, don't get depressed.

295 michaelg  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:06:00pm

Gordon,

In your world, logic appears to be quicksilver. We can criticize what GW did in the guard, but not what Kerry did in Viet-Nam?

Quit spouting talking points, and try and use reason. We haven't even started on what Kerry did after the war, traiterous ass! (Did I spell traiterous right? I hate to offend John Kerry.)

296 gymnast  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:07:23pm

#279, SoCalJustice. IIRC,Gere is a Scientologist. Have they been co-opted by Islam and the PLO too?

297 Dianna  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:08:22pm

#295 michaelg

Traitorous.

298 Beagle  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:09:54pm

Was Kerry honorably discharged? I only care to monitor the lies I've been told.

299 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:10:09pm

#287 Bob: If that is the definition of legally blind, then I stand corrected. I was not legally blind. I was at about 20/100 corrected - bad enough to be unfit for military service and unable to pass the vision exam for a driver's license, but not legally blind.

300 azul93gt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:10:26pm

Gordon sure does hate the rich... well rich republicans anyway.

301 Gordon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:12:51pm

#294 Poitiers: You may be evil, but at least you seem to have a sense of humor - so you're not COMPLETELY worthless...

Bye for good now.

302 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:13:24pm

Wasn't that Marine an immigrant? An immigrant who put his life down for his new country. Vietnam was a different time and a different war.


John Kerry put himself out there, it was thoroughly pre-planned, Kerry as the New Commander in Chief. No one just happens to have a new authorized bio come out the exact same time as when you are running for President. Nor a documentary, The Long Trip Upriver..... And not for one second is everything choreographed, as was the Dem Convention in Boston with Kerry riding to the Convention on a boat with his former Swiftvet crew on board, his bounding out onto the stage, saluting, "reporting for duty."

Kerry sent out Hurley, a former VVAW and former Vietnam Vet to smear the Swiftvets......

303 Bob with one O  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:13:36pm

Gordon,

True enough. Last I looked at the Gov't Standards Uncle Sam would give you a 4F.

304 Crimsonfisted  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:16:12pm

#302
Yes he was an immigrant - Mexican. His story is incredible. I have said more than one prayer for him.

305 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:17:18pm

#302 Bubble Girl

John Kerry put himself out there, it was thoroughly pre-planned, Kerry as the New Commander in Chief. No one just happens to have a new authorized bio come out the exact same time as when you are running for President. Nor a documentary, The Long Trip Upriver..... And not for one second is everything choreographed, as was the Dem Convention in Boston with Kerry riding to the Convention on a boat with his former Swiftvet crew on board, his bounding out onto the stage, saluting, "reporting for duty."

Absolutely LOVE IT that this backfired on him, don't you?

Kerry sent out Hurley, a former VVAW and former Vietnam Vet to smear the Swiftvets......

Earlier, Kerry tried to seduce the Swift Vets with his celebrity status by asking them if he could meet with them to try to get them to stop their campaign before it really got started.

I am SO loving it that this did not work! :)

306 scaramouche  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:17:29pm

Speaking of Kerry, he's got a new job. He's going to be one of the guys monitoring the Palestinian election, along with Jhimmi Carter and Joe Biden His Time.

Along with representatives from such bastions of the democratic process as Pakistan, Yemen and Bangladesh.
[Link: www.jpost.com...]

307 Pamela  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:17:54pm

228 zombie


you are right, we are drifting.

308 hm  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:18:57pm

This is how this idiot ends his piece:

When the smoke cleared, mainstream journalism’s authority was weakened. But it didn’t have to be that way.


How touching.

309 theparson  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:19:30pm

Hey, everybody!

I see the LLL is still whining about mean old GW Bush. All I can say is...

President George W. Bush won!

He's president for 4 more years! 4 more years! 4 more years!

310 Mike C.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:19:38pm

# 138 Spiney Norman

I can beat that. I had two high school buddies who did combat duty during Vietnam. One actually served in combat in Vietnam itself - as a gunner's mate on the USS New Jersey. Not exactly a grunt. The other did his combat duty (and yes, it WAS considered and paid as combat duty) as a technician in a Minuteman missle complex out west (the US west, I mean). I guess that means they were both cowards, eh ?

311 Powderfinger  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:19:46pm

Fox just reported a beheaded body that was found booby trapped with explosives in Iraq.

Anyone else seen anything on this?

312 Sarah D.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:19:50pm

Former Military Leaders Oppose Gonzales Nomination (Update2)

Jan. 3 (Bloomberg) -- A dozen former military officers, including retired Army General John Shalikashvili, are opposing the nomination of White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales to be U.S. attorney general because he endorsed detaining suspected terrorists without protections accorded prisoners of war.

Why would we want to give them POW status? I don't get this.

313 Catttt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:20:00pm

Gordon said

The glasses I wear are still coke-bottle bottoms, which is why I wear contacts.

Anyway, the point for Reaganite was not that he was picking on a helpless cripple, but rather that I was not a candidate for membership in the armed forces. I'm not claiming that I would have entered even if eligible, but for me it wasn't an option.

OK, glad you can see now. I understand regarding glasses/contacts (me too and me too).

The difference here - if I could have corrected my eyes back then and by doing so got into the US Army, I'd have done it in a New York minute.

314 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:20:14pm

#301 Gordon

so you're not COMPLETELY worthless...

I can't do it.....it's just too effin' easy......

315 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:20:54pm

RightAsRain -

Yes, Kerry was hoisted on his own petard. But since we are committing the offense of being OT, we have to stop....it is irking the main threaders.......

316 Elcid  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:23:03pm

311 Powderfinger

Yes, just watched the same thing.

317 theparson  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:23:07pm

Audie Murphy was found unfit by the Marines and Navy before he talked his way into the Army. I guess if Gordo really wanted to he could have found a way.

318 Sarah D.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:23:27pm

#311 Powderfinger

Heard it today on the radio....but the version I heard said "bobby-trapped corpse".

319 The Bruce  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:23:56pm

The news of CBS execs meeting at the White House and now this "critique" in the Columbia Review of Journalism smell of a vast, left-wing conspiracy :-))

Serious. The Left is marshaling its resources to cover up for CBS--that is, they're going to rewrite history in front of all of us. Charles, this is the start of a national smear campaign, one that will be worthy of a Lenin or a Goebbels.

We all need to participate in this in whatever way we can--letters, interviews with neutral news organizations, and more. Charles, you and Newcomer should collaborate on a piece to run in a technical trade publication, laying out everything, to ensure that this isn't flushed away in the tidal wave of propaganda.

You and Newcomer also need to contact the press--Taranto at WSJ, the folks at National Review, Fox News, Rush and/or Sean on radio (both have national audiences in the millions).

320 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:24:08pm
you're not COMPLETELY worthless

Oh, thank you, Gordon.

I know, I have some gold in my teeth.

When I die in a gulag you can retrieve it.

321 steve miller  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:24:29pm

It is not nodroG who hijacked this thread - it is we who respond to this moral idiot who are letting it get hijacked.

Please.

Just stop.

For some odd reason, Charles likes this fool. So it's Charles' places, and if he likes to keep a few messy things around so it doesn't look too clean, then that's ok.

But stop responding to him. You know -- you know it does not good, AND it's exactly what the site pests wants.

Just think - Charles has the $$$ to build this blog, and DU tocsin comes along and completely and thoroughly destroys a thread for the mere price of his AOL connection.

Just stop responding.

For those of you who are unaccountably uninformed of this site pests' crotlets, use the nifty new feature of LFG (the green football) to view the last months' worth of screeching. You will see that it's nothing more than a thousand monkeys could type, if they were on mescaline.

322 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:24:51pm

#315 Bubble Girl

Yeah, and I grabbed on as well. (Kicks self in ass).

I often wonder if nodroG comes here because they won't even have him at Kos and DU.

From now on, I shall GAZE. I pretty much scroll through his posts. But the "completely worthless" remark - man, some jokes write themselves.

But as I said earlier - The Crazyass School of Journalism has no credentials has far as I can see. And this joker really is suffering from delusions of grandeur if he thinks he is gonna take down an administration because his buddies voted him most likely to.

Isn't there some nice NYC traffic he can go play in?

323 Sarah D.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:25:35pm

Totally OT

Mad Magazine illustrator died today.

Mad Magazine Illustrator Freas Dies at 82

This guy was really amazing.

In a career that spanned more than 50 years, Freas illustrated the covers or the pages of books by writers including Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, Arthur C. Clarke, A.E. Van Vogt, Poul Anderson and Frederik Pohl.
While serving in the Pacific theater in World War II in photo reconnaissance, he passed his spare time painting beautiful women on the noses of bomber airplanes.

I happen to be not only a SciFi fan, but a Mad Mag fan too........

324 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:27:15pm
325 Hankmeister  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:27:29pm

This Corey Pein-in-the-ass is such a ditz. No wonder we have any number of journalistic scandals the last few years with the kind of crap that comes out of Columbia and other journalism schools. They guy just strings a bunch of words together and he calls it journalism. This kind of jaundiced journalism can take a flying leap and people like Pein-in-the-ass will get thrown on the ash heap of history. Little pinheads like this will finish the job that Dan Blather et al started.

326 scaramouche  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:27:31pm

Corey Pein's blog.

For another example of his clulessness, check out his July 11th post.

327 Cam  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:28:03pm

#296 gymnast:

Gere is a Buddhist.

328 theparson  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:28:04pm

Steve Miller

But it's sooooooo much fun!

329 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:28:13pm

The denial of the MSM and the nurseries who breed these little hatchlings always reminds me of that joke where the woman (man?) comes home and hind her spouse in bed with another and screams

"You're having an affair!" "NO I'M NOT!" screams the spouse.

"But I SAW you!"

"SO? Who are you going to believe? Me or your lyin' eyes?"

330 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:28:22pm

#320 Poiters

LOL And now, we have been scolded by the main threaders to cease our incessant chattering......As if they do not know how to scroll.....

331 Asylum Aleikum  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:28:28pm

Unlike DNC talking points, "the accompanying analysis was long and technical, discouraging close examination."

What an imbecile....

332 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:31:02pm

Ploome -

Keep RightAsRain out of this.........And who has been talking about codpieces today?

333 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:31:03pm

#330 Bubble Girl

BTW, congratulations and THANKS for your good work as a Doctor.

334 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:31:53pm

#331 Asylum Aleikum

Oh, that explains it. They used words of more than two syllables. No wonder mushhead from CSJ was dumbfounded. They didn't have color pictures to accompany it.

335 Carolina Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:32:53pm

#332 Bubbles

Codpieces? How in the Wide Wide World of Sports did I miss the CODPIECE discussion?

336 gymnast  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:33:44pm

#327, Cam. Always? Or is that the "flavor of the weeK"?//

337 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:35:21pm

Carolina Girl

Evidently an OT piece at almost midnight has irritated some, who know claim it has become a revolving subject today.....

338 Buckaroo  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:36:32pm

# 323 S D

"he passed his spare time painting beautiful women on the noses of bomber airplanes."
.. and thus became a hero to many , many AAF servicemen ..
:-)

Story that I've never fully researched but heard from multiple sources (and it's just plain funny besides) --
The raciest "nose art" was from 1942-43. After that time, the paitnings were toned down. Why? During 1943, the first bomber crews began completing their 25 missions and rotated home (e.g. the movie "Memphis Belle") -- sometimes with their airframes. Someone in the War Department got the bright idea that they could raise even more war bond money if the folks in Rochester, Peoria, etc. got to see a real live B-17 at the local airport with European theater-veteran crew. so, they began dispatching bombers out to various towns. It wasn't long before the ladies from the Daughters of the American Revolution chapters, etc. flooded the Pentagon with letters about how "shocked" everyone was at the pics on display on government equipment, and so the air wing commanders had to suddenly become art critics & censors ...
:-)

339 Geepers  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:37:13pm

scaramouche (#326),

Thanks for the link.

Corey's motto: "Adventures in Self-Promotion"

Yep. Corey's got a big head.

And poorly done as well.

340 Bob with one O  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:37:18pm

ploome 324,

I'm really wondering now.

341 Kofi Annan  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:38:44pm

OT

Naw, just kidding.

Charles,

When sniveling C-BS exects are off to the White House to claim that they really are "fair and balanced", that's a great time to kick up your feet and enjoy a glass or two of White Label...on the rocks.

Cheers

342 Sarah D.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:39:45pm

#338 Buckaroo

No doubt true. We cannot leave anything alone can we? If they had been thinking, they would have sent the less "racy" ones to be seen by the public and avoided the entire mess!

LOL!

343 Cam  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:41:20pm

#336 gymnast:

He's been a Buddhist for a number of years, IIRC.

344 Buckaroo  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:42:06pm

# 326 scar

Quoted from an autumn entry verbatim --
"Facing unpleasant facts
We're running out of oil. So what are we **gonna** do about it? I, for one, am learning how to start a fire by rubbing two sticks **togeher**"


Ladies and gentlemen, I give you a Columbia Journalism
School graduate ...

Take him, please!

And yes, I know he's wrong re: global oil supplies as well!

345 Iron Fist  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:42:08pm

#323 Sarah D.

Check it out, Dolly! Nose art. Too cool!

346 CanadianBacon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:42:10pm

Remember the good old days, when the Soviet Union was only a misunderstood, friendly bear? When the Workers' Paradise was the ultimate expression of human endeavour, a heaven on earth? Ah yes, I grew up on the daily news tales of just how good things could be for all us unfortunates who were forced to live on the wrong side of the Curtain, where the evil capitalists were poisoning the land, air, and water and enslaving the poor masses.

Sigh. Things were so simple, then.

Today, now that the inhabitants of Paradise have torn down the Curtain, we can see that the news story-tellers had it wrong, that everyone can now see where all the most polluted places on earth lie. We can hear for ourselves, without the filter of the fellow-travelling media, that life was so good there that people by the thousands died trying to leave a state founded on the deaths of over 80 million of its citizens. What a resounding silence from the media when the truth became available.

Oh, yes indeed, for the media the fall of the Wall was a black day. Gone was the socialist heaven on earth, where everyone was equal and did as he was told; gone was the shining example of how bad we were. If they were wrong about that, what else could they have been mistaken about? What other "facts" are rubbed in our faces that may not be true?

How about the new tool that the lefties would use to tear down our societies: how about the "threat" of global warming.

Yes, the world has been warming up - since the last ice age, in fact. Over the last century the global temperature rose an average 0.08 degrees C every decade. Of course, the globe is currently cooler than the historical norm - there are groves of fossilised trees in the Canadian Artic hundreds of kilometers north of the current treeline - so the planet is currently warming and will continue to do so no matter what we puny humans do. So, will this trend melt polar ice caps and drown Pacific islands? Not so far: the Antarctic ice cap is growing, as are the ice sheets on Greenland and Iceland; studies of sea levels at low-lying Pacific islands have found no measurable indications of rising seas.

So why the uproar, why demand that we must do something now? Why do the actions prescribed by the story-tellers (Kyoto, Accord - ever hear of it?) only apply to the developed nations and not the emerging/undeveloped economies?

Why, to bring us down to their level, of course. This time the lefties won't rely on the truth to stay hidden behind the curtain - this time they'll use natural phenomena to bring about the Comintern ascendancy. With the brakes on the economies of the western (democratic) nations the unfettered economies of, say, China, will have a positive advantage globally.

And the left will rise again, no matter their "just society" is built with lies on a foundation of poisoned earth.

It's true, I read it in the papers.

347 secsailor  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:43:07pm

#201 Gordon 1/3/2005 02:26PM PST

It turned out, of course, to be completely unnecessary, since the Soviet Union would have collapsed in 1989 even if it had never been fought.

What does the Soviet Union have to do with Vietnam? Last I checked Vietnam was still communist. If it wasn't for the likes of Kerry, there's a good chance it would be democracy today.

348 Cam  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:44:37pm

#336 gymnast:

Gere followed that success with a starring role with the 1982 military-romance blockbuster An Officer and a Gentleman. During this same year he converted from his Methodist roots to the Tibetan school of Buddhism.

No word on when he discovered his affinity for gerbils...

;-)

349 Sarah D.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:46:00pm

#345 Iron Fist

I was looking for a link, you beat me to it.

Thanks!

350 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:46:04pm
351 Buckaroo  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:49:02pm

# 348 Cam

Dude, when will you stop believing everything your bar buddies tell you?
:-)
:-)


It does note the stories started in the "mid-1980s", i.e. after "Officer"

352 satan sidekick  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:49:18pm

Gordo

Maybe you should tell this story to the 5 families in my town who lost their sons who were reservists in Vietnam. All 5 were killed when their jeep hit a landmine. They were not "privileged" as I knew 3 of them.

There were hundreds of reservists called up for Vietnam from my town. If you didn't get called - you were lucky, not the other way around.

Of course, everyone knew that George Bush would become president so he wasn't called up to go to to Vietnam. Which is as lame a statement as you saying that Vietnam wasn't necessary 30 years after the fact.

353 Kofi Annan  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:49:39pm

#348 Cam

No word on when he discovered his affinity for gerbils...

LMAO...I was waiting for that. He's a very dedicated man, especially with the shaving...

/furry critter off

354 Sarah D.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:52:57pm

OT

2004 a year of successes for Hizbullah, despite pressures

BEIRUT: Despite the growing international pressure on Hizbullah to disarm, 2004 was a positive year for the party.

Sources at Hizbullah said 2004 was the second most important year after 2000, when Israel withdrew from the south of Lebanon and Hizbullah was proclaimed as a liberator.

On both on the local and international scenes, the Islamic resistance party achieved recognition during 2004 despite the looming international threat which culminated in the adoption on Sept. 2 of UN Security Council Resolution 1559.

"Hizbullah, this year, has definitely improved its prestige on the national and regional playing boards," political analyst Judith Harik said.

Nice.

355 TotallySirius  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:56:09pm

#259 nodroG

"borderline treason"?

Last time I checked,private meetings/ negotiations with the enemy IS treason,as is giving aid and comfort to the enemy(that includes propoganda aid).

When are you going to quit repeating unproven dhimmi talking points and do some research before putting your fingers to the keyboard?

356 octopus  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:57:03pm

I think WriterMom said it best: Gordon has the BEST time, jumping in here with some patently nonsensical Dem Underground propaganda, and stirring the pot. You'd better believe, he goes back to his dweeb-pals at whatever left-wing forum he lives at, and directs them to his brilliant shenanigans.

Anyone who thinks joining the National Guard at any time, is "shirking your responsibility," needs to be fitted for a straitjacket. Why, here in Detroit, the National Guard had a running firefight with enemy snipers and armed kids, during the riots of '67. One of my current friends had a tank parked on his lawn, which was pretty cool. I lived in the suburbs, but close enough to where our parents were concerned about the riots spilling over.

They needn't have worried. The Guard was all over it.

357 Buckeye Abroad  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:58:49pm

#323 Sarah D.

I happen to be not only a SciFi fan, but a Mad Mag fan too........

Then you know the life bio of Antonio Prohias, the creator of "Spy vs Spy" as well then? Not many cartoonists can say they had Castro hold up one of their cartoons as proof of counter-revolutionaries inside the country. [The crowds frenzied reply was 'Paredon para Prohias!']

358 TotallySirius  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 1:59:19pm

Newsflash for you Gordo....

We were asked to intervene in Vietnam by the(drum roll) UN at the request of the whimpering fwenchies.

Goddamit boy,do your homework.

359 American Infidel[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:01:18pm
360 norar  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:01:25pm

#354 Sarah D.

Hisbullah also claim that Arabs won 1967 and 1973 wars.

361 Bob with one O  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:02:45pm

norar,

If CBS reported Israel won those wars...

362 Sarah D.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:03:06pm

#357 Buckeye Abroad

I knew he was Cuban...but not that story.

Can we take out Fidel next, please?

363 Loflyer  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:03:38pm

Gordon, sorry it took so long to reply. While doing research on the memogate affair, I ran into several statements made by his squadron commander that the TANG was hoping to get shipped over to Viet Nam. The F-106 that TANG flew are interceptors, they destroy bombers. The 106 had no cannons and the missiles it carried were not very accurate. The 106 were never used in Viet Nam because they were redundant. The F-4 was the primary fighter used in Viet Nam. The Air Force refused the TANG request to go to Nam, and about that time, Bush started getting into politics and moved to Alabama. The TANG and Bush wanted to go to Viet Nam, but they were denied by the Air Force because of their redundant F-106’s. PS Anyone who flew the 106 had big balls. They are not easy to fly….

364 Buckaroo  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:04:54pm

# 362 S D

Sadly, the chances of Fidel pullign off an attack on our soil is puny compared to Hizballah doing the same - hence he's waaaay down the list nowadays ...
:-(

'course, he could travel to France and pull a Fish for all of us ...
:-)

365 steve miller  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:05:01pm

IIRC, the reason the libs got so bent out of shape over the documents is that they were so easily shown to be forgeries (heck, even *I* could see they were forgeries). And thus their machinations to smear a sitting president were exposed.

Most Americans with an few grammes of sense could spot right away that the documents were fake, and so dismissed the whole story.

It's only the incredible ineptitude of the Tiffany Network that has kept this story alive. Had CBS simply fired Mapes and Rather and said, "We regret letting them run this story that was improperly sourced," and even donated some money to Kinkos, the story would have been over.

Instead, some very stupid people refused to see the holes in this story, and circled the wagons when the arrows started to fly.

They were stupid and wrong, and they are still laughed at.

This Pein in the neck is no different than Rather, except that he's younger.

And a graduate of Evergreen State? Like, what's *that* diploma worth?

366 Sarah D.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:05:19pm

Interesting:

Palestinian betrayal of the Kurds

I can tell you where the Palestinians themselves stand. Their leadership is adamantly opposed to the Kurdish efforts to end their occupation and establish their state. The Palestinians support the occupiers, namely Syria, Turkey and Iraq, and they always have.

Good points, shouldn't the Palestinians be agitating for the Kurds?

367 tigger2005  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:05:37pm

# 201

Why was Vietnam a "huge mistake?" Because we "lost?"

Was Korea a mistake? Do you think the people of South Korea would be better off under li'l Kim?

The fact is that the U.S. won every major engagement of the Vietnam War, including Tet--a devastating defeat for the Viet Cong, in which thousands of them were slaughtered.

We "lost" because the anti-war movement in conjunction with the media (especially dear old Uncle Walter) succeeded in eroding our will to win.

I really don't understand how it was a "mistake" for the U.S. to assist South Vietnam in resisting the aggression of its northern neighbor, a totalitarian Communist state, whose Viet Cong surrogates engaged in terrorism (butchering police, village leaders, and government officials) in order to destabilize the country.

I wonder why hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese risked death to come to America, rather than submitting to the joys of Communist rule?

368 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:05:56pm

#363 Loflyer

The F-106 that TANG flew are interceptors

W flew F-102s an earlier version of the 106...

369 It's Miss Donna V. to you  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:07:21pm

Whew, I need aspirin after wading through this thread. Gordon never answered the obvious point made by several posters: that the whole point of Charles' post is not about what Dubya did or didn't do in TANG, or whether or not strings were pulled to get him in, but that CBS used forged documents and now an idiot at Columbia Review of Journalism is attacking those who uncovered the fraud, not those who committed it. Sheesh, instead Gordon pops in and wants to rehash the entire friggin' campaign and the Vietnam War, to boot.

My advice (which will not be taken) is: don't argue military matters with someone who is career military, like reaganite, or you'll only end up looking like an asshat.

Back to the matter at hand: what's sad - and infuriating - about this half-assed article is that many members of the MSM read the Columbia Review like entertainers read Variety. If Pein was honest, he could have performed a valuable service by relaying the facts objectively: "This is how CBS dropped the ball." Instead, he chose to pander to the MSM's prejudices and fears. They'll read it, and nod, and shake their heads over the "sloppiness" and "inaccuracy" of those characters in P.J.'s who dare to presume to fact check them.

And they'll continue to wonder why newspaper circulation is dropping, why Fox is doing so well, why polls show they're held in lower esteem that the slimiest ambulance chasers,...,

370 Buckaroo  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:08:17pm

# 366 S D

"shouldn't the Palestinians be agitating for the Kurds?"

I suppose that would depend on how badly the Kurds want to kill Jooooos ...
:-(

371 Buckeye Abroad  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:10:08pm

#362 Sarah D.

Can we take out Fidel next, please?

When the old man dies and the country is free, I'll meet you in Cuba to smoke Havanas [local hand rolled cigars] over the bastards grave.

We'll probably have to wait in line at the cemetary to do that though ;)

372 steve miller  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:10:31pm

Just scroll by the troll, folks.

It's just another cry of "Love me, Daddy!"

If only Charles would pay attention to him...if only...

373 TotallySirius  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:11:00pm

#359 American Infidel

Yeah,I know,I'm still the eternal optimist,hoping a little education and exposure to the facts will change his misguided opinions.

and,yes,I know there is little hope for him.

374 PJ61  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:12:07pm

Sorry for late but just got home-I can read LGF at work but they frown on posting on the company nickle. Gordon 's post looking for someone to please dispute "the fact" that Mr Bush got favored treatment and avoided serving prompts me.

Gordon-1) You wear the uniform, you serve. Period. Plenty of men and women in the Gaurd have fought and died for this country. More continue to do so this day in Iraq and elsewhere. You dishonor them while trying to smear a good man who served. 2) No one except the CIC knows for sure where (s)he will serve once signing up . Just look at that wiseass in Califorinia who would not serve aboard his ship heading to an "illegal" war. The ship is now headed for the victims of the Tsunami and he looks like an even bigger ass. Soilders and Sailors will died serving in relief operations in SE Asia. Their service there is just and honorable as is their brother's in Iraq. 3) Unlike JF(S)Kerry, Mr Bush's records are released fully . Still waiting for Kerry to release them 4) Kerry's one claim during his convention was to his war record, he brought the topic , not Mr. Bush. Kerry claimed he was "all that and a bag of chips." All Mr. Bush said ,however, was "I served, I was honorably discharged. Next."

CBS' claim that 5 years of investigation to produce a handful of faked documents is not "out to get " Mr. Bush is beyond reason. Politics aside, shareholders will not continue to support the management of the News division with number like they are posting. Money does talk in the end.

Sorry for delay-rain on the roads in New England . When I left the posts were in the mid 180s

375 Sarah D.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:12:08pm

#371 Buckeye Abroad

It's a deal.....and I love Cuban food so it sounds like a party!

Now we just have to wait.

I have heard (via the Cubans in the Tampa area) that one of Fidel's sons will take over....and it will be even worse. No facts to hand out, just what I've been told.

376 satan sidekick  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:13:00pm

#369 Miss Donna

And they'll continue to wonder why newspaper circulation is dropping, why Fox is doing so well, why polls show they're held in lower esteem that the slimiest ambulance chasers,...,


They don't get it. MSM and LLL are incapable of forming a logical thought. Lies are fine in their world - as long as they are the ones doing the lying.

Very sad - Rather and Mapes should have been handed their heads. Instead we've got these alleged jounalists blaming those who sought the truth about the origin of the memos. What happened to the art of journalism and those who teach it? There was a time when it was..the facts and nothing but the facts. Now, facts are unimportant - only the agenda and the axe grinding matters.

377 Buckaroo  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:13:43pm

# 375 S D

Si, senor Uday, we shall root out the capitalist swine in our midst!
:-(
:-(

378 Loflyer  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:16:05pm

Reaganite, the 102 was worse than the 106, something about the shape of the fusalage that kept it from breaking mach 1 efficiently, and yes it big balls to fly almost anything flown during the 50's. I am a 70's guy myself, we flew A-7's, I was a ejection seat technician.

379 Grandma  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:16:22pm

Gordon,

My late husband was inducted (didn’t enlist) in the Army in April 1941 (Pre-Pearl Harbor); he was almost 24 years old. His occupation at the time was “Rivet Buster” for the Central Railroad. His father was a hostler on the same railroad; neither was “privileged”. Once drafted and after war was declared, he decided he didn’t really want to be on the front lines and get killed. So he applied to the Officer’s Candidate School (Signal Corps and Chemical Warfare Training) and was commissioned as a Second Lt. in 1942. From there he spent the next four years behind the lines in the South Pacific (Philippine Islands campaign, New Guinea, North Solomons and then on to Japan after the unconditional surrender). He was separated from active duty in 1946; he was honorably discharged in 1953.

The point I’d make is that my husband used his intelligence and wits to put himself in a position whereby his risk of winding up dead was minimized. He served his country and lived to tell about it. He didn’t “pull any strings”; he had none. He just figured it out for himself. He was still eligible to be recalled, as a member of the reserves up until 1953, but wasn’t. Should he be diminished because he had the will, the smarts, and the desire to put in his service in the most advantageous way for himself? Maybe if my ol’ boy had run for president, you’d be asking the same questions of him that you do of GW. I would have the same answer: you couldn’t have walked a half-mile in either of their shoes, so be quiet or talk about something you know something about.

380 Kofi Annan  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:17:04pm

#372 steve miller

Just scroll by the troll, folks.
It's just another cry of "Love me, Daddy!"
If only Charles would pay attention to him...if only...

Thanks to the 7 day posting history, that alone makes it all the more obvious that this guy has no head space and timing....yikes.

381 tigger2005  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:18:47pm

# 357

Mad Magazine was subversive, no doubt. Although I was never a rebel, Mad was still a guilty pleasure of my childhood, as was National Lampoon. I had enough wit as a kid to enjoy subversive humor without being brainwashed by it, since I was a Republican before I could vote.

382 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:19:19pm

#378 Loflyer

the 102 was worse than the 106, something about the shape of the fusalage that kept it from breaking mach 1 efficiently,

Yup, essentially the 106 is identical to the 102 except they "coke bottled" the waist of the 106, laminar flow and all that. The 102 was an evil beast, as were all the early century fighters.

I was a ejection seat technician.

On A-7s? Don't you mean you were a spinal realignment technician? :-Þ

383 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:20:13pm

#366 Sarah D.

Balestinians (especially people like Hanan Ashrawi) have moaned many many times over the past four years that the Balestinians are the only people on the entire planet still living under OCCUPAYSHUN.

They neglect the Lebanese who live under Syrian occupation, the Kurds who live under a whole bunch of nations' occupations, the Tibetans who live under Chinese occupation, etc.

The Balestinians only care for their walking dead selves because they believe they can destroy Israel if keep trying hard enough to get the whole world wrecked over their complaints.

All the various celebrities and politicians who are heading over to monitor the Balestinian elections are going to see how badly the Balestinians are rotting in their own filth and ask "How can Israel do this to them?"

They should ask, "Where did Arafat put the billions of dollars he stole that was supposed to HELP these people (and where will Abbas put the next billions that he steals that will never end up helping the Balestinian people at all)?"

They will never get it, though. This whole thing sucks so badly.

384 jeff1999  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:22:38pm

Imagine going to school, going through a rigorous interview process, finally getting that job, and then finding out that your chosen profession isn't much of a "profession" any more and that any Tom, Dick or Polipundit is doing what you've "trained" years to do. Not only that, but they're doing a better job at it than you and the readers are figuring it out.

Ouch. That's gotta hurt. Frankly, I'm surprised there aren't more of these attempts to put down bloggers.

385 foreign devil  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:23:57pm

This Peine in the butt didn't even make a pretense of looking at the whole sequence of events from the time on Sept. 8th that the memos appeared on CBS's website to the time the next morning they were proved fraudulent by Dr. Newcomer, parsed the original refutation further with his extensive analysis of the fake documents.

Peine has seen an opportunity, late in the day, to insert himself into the debate in an attempt, just as that other journalism professor did, to garner himself some brownie points, hoping that his shoddy dissection of the events and proferred 'evidence' by CBS, would slime by and no one would notice and he could gain a few merits by having an article in the Columbia journal. Academics are such sluts, nowadays. Maybe they always were. Yeeeechh!

386 Lyana  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:24:15pm

What an incredibly lame piece. I have VERY little tech background (just about enough to point and click), and even I was able read through and understand Dr. Newcomer's analysis.

I certainly didn't understand all the nuance, but it was simple enough that I could grasp the processes and the significance of the elements that showed those documents to be forgeries.

Just when you think they can't get any more stupid...

387 Cam  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:24:42pm

#375 Sarah D.:

Fidel's brother Raul is his officially handpicked successor.

388 foreign devil  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:25:45pm

Sorry I meant to say above that the original CBS documents were proved fraudulent by Charles and Dr. Newcomer further dissected the proof and the fraudulent memos. Sorry I wiped something out and took out too much. :(

389 satan sidekick  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:26:17pm

#383 rightasrain

Balestinians (especially people like Hanan Ashrawi) have moaned

That goat woman! Isn't she the official Balis moaner? I've never heard her do anything else. I think she is Arafish's twin and they were separated at birth.

390 Grafton  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:27:39pm

OT: but I doubt anyone cares this deep into the thread --

Remember 'the little girl who saved the convoy' posting a few weeks back? Well, it's turned up on GLURGE, a snopes-like site for 'inspirational stories'. This time there's a prologue from the supposed wife. The whole thing is 100% made up tripe, which won't stop it from being emailed everywhere for the next three years.

glurge (GLURJ) n. A sentimental or uplifting story, particularly one delivered via e-mail, that uses inaccurate or fabricated facts; a story that is mawkish or maudlin; the genre consisting of such stories.

[Link: www.glurge.com...]

391 Buckeye Abroad  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:28:24pm

#375 Sarah D.

I have heard (via the Cubans in the Tampa area) that one of Fidel's sons will take over....and it will be even worse.

It will be Fidel's brother, but I don't think he has the strength to hold it all together. The aparatchiks will attempt to hold on (like the Baath loyalists) to power, but I don't see how long that police state can withstand the power to the north. Members of Castro's own family fled the workers paradise to the US-- all Cuba needs after his death is a little push *cough* [insurgency + cash].

392 steve miller  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:29:24pm

That's why I love the green football. Just click on it to see a history of what the person has said. And see the chaotic thinking.

393 Sarah D.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:29:50pm

#387 Cam

Hmmm, doesn't look good for the Cuban people.

And to think, Hollywood loves them. Idiots. We should float them TO Cuba from Miami.

394 rightasrain  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:30:37pm

#389 satan sidekick

That goat woman! Isn't she the official Balis moaner? I've never heard her do anything else. I think she is Arafish's twin and they were separated at birth.

No kidding!

Do you mean that you've heard her being interviewed where they ask her about the Naqba?

Yeah, she moans. "Ooooooohhhhhh. Ohhhhhhh...." Then she starts to describe the utter tragedy of Arabs having to move 5 miles down the road and not being allowed to destroy Israel over it.

She's one of the worst over there!

395 toddhisattva  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:33:09pm

#151 Charles

cathyf: I have to disagree; it's not trivially easy at all to exactly reproduce a typewritten document with Word. You would need to do extensive fiddling with typefaces, spacing, margins, line spacing, tabs, etc. etc. It would take a LONG time.

I must support cathyf's view.

Just use Courier, since Courier was endemic in the 1970s. Don't even mess with tabs, just use spaces -- Courier is monospaced.

I don't have Word on any of my computers (the less Microsoft, the better), but just doing this in WordPad on Windows is looking pretty close to typed pretty fast. In Courier New 10 (does Word have a wider selection of Couriers?) the default line spacing is 6-per-inch, matching the IBM Selectric. I don't have a printer networked to this Windozer so I can't see what hardcopy looks like for sure.

I quit using Word around version 4 or something like that, so I can't continue this research.

Really, the first thing to hit my eyes was the proportional font used in the forgeries. If they had been in Courier, it would have taken a lot more work to prove they were forgeries.

Complaints about things not exactly matching could have been countered with "that's what happens with 1970s photocopiers."

It's that Bill Burkett ^H^H^H^H the forger didn't even bother to use Courier that is so, so, so damning.

396 thefish  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:33:48pm

I know I'm a little new on this blog, but who is this Gordon turd, anyway?

397 satan sidekick  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:34:40pm

#394 rightasrain

Do you mean that you've heard her being interviewed where they ask her about the Naqba?

Unfortunately I have heard this goat woman whine more often than I care to remember. I haven't seen her on Fox for quite some time. I haven't see the pack of liars and whiners (e.g. Ibrahim Hooper, the fat CAIR man Hussein or that basset hound eyed Saudi) lately either. Which is a good thing.

398 Geepers  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:35:53pm

jeff1999 (#),

Frankly, I'm surprised there aren't more of these attempts to put down bloggers.

Ever seen a capibara wander into the wrong part of the river?

399 thefish  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:37:03pm

#346-CanadianBacon

What a terrific post! Could not have said it better myself - hell, I couldn't have said it half as well myself. You hit it dead on the nail.

400 Buckeye Abroad  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:37:15pm

#381 tigger2005

I had enough wit as a kid to enjoy subversive humor without being brainwashed by it, since I was a Republican before I could vote.

As kids we must had the same sense of humor as well as bought the same issues of MAD ;)

401 quark2  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:42:48pm

Looks as though one of us cat lovers need to bring in our litter box tools and clean up the troll droppings on this thread.

It would in a contest of idiocy which would be named the winner, the professor from EUnichia and his knuckling under shar'ia law, or this professor that is either illerate or just too lazy to check his own facts. Both are jaw dropping ludricous!

402 Geepers  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:47:25pm

toddhisattva (#395),

Just use Courier, since Courier was endemic in the 1970s. Don't even mess with tabs, just use spaces -- Courier is monospaced.

I don't have Word on any of my computers (the less Microsoft, the better), but just doing this in WordPad on Windows is looking pretty close to typed pretty fast.

It's "looking pretty close", you're going with that? Really?

Sorry but that just ain't gonna cut it.

You don't seem to even understand what the function of the tab feature is.

403 Al di Grandpa  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:47:36pm

Gordon:

What is your alternative explanation for why George W. Bush didn't serve in Vietnam?


He chose instead to fly F102s...also know as the 'widow maker''... so difficult and dangerous to fly the USAF phased them out quickly. He probably would have been safer in Vietnam, especially if he could get the hell out as fast as JfnK did.

Gordy, time to move on. This horse is ready for sniffing.

404 SunCat  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:47:59pm

It does not take a genius to see that the documents are forgeries (I saw it instantly). It takes a highly-skilled journalist to make such a limp rebuttal seem legit.

405 Loflyer  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:49:29pm

Reaganite, yep, the A-7 used the Douglas Escapac seats. The weren’t near as good as the Martin-Bakers but one of our pilots got to ride the sucker after he flamed out on takeoff. His chute didn’t open until after the crash and fireball. Scared the hell out of us, but the pilot was flying three days later…

406 [Engineer]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:50:01pm

I see Gordon has destroyed another thread. All he comes here for is attention, not to debate. Right now he is counting the number of posts addressed to him to see how he did. He doesn't care if you insult him, all he wants is your attention. The worse thing you can do to Gordon is not talk to him, that he can't take.

407 Muck DeFuslims  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:50:12pm

#119, 228 Zombie

Great posts. Thank you.

408 Wheeler's Cat  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:50:55pm

Betcha Corey hasn't had a math class since high school. Charles' analysis is proved by pantography and an affine transform. No one can argue with mathematics.

409 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:51:41pm

#405 Loflyer

yep, the A-7 used the Douglas Escapac seats.

Man, I was banging my head on my desk trying to remember the name of that seat! I last pinned one in 82!

410 steve miller  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:53:12pm

thefish - click the little green football next to the troll's name to see -- INSTANTLY -- what passes for intellectual argument.

411 maxx  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:57:00pm

I am writing at least the 400th comment and I don't think I've seen anyone post about Pein's motives/timing.

Surely he has been put up to write this turgid piece of trash to provide 'cover' or at least 'talking points' for cBS and the rest of the msm, just like 'Prof.' Hailey's original effort (now discredited).

Pein takes a different approach - attack the methodology/motives of those who established that the memos are fakes (not forgeries) rather than attempt the impossible task of somehow claiming that the memos are genuine, but the sought-for end result is the same - cover for the msm. I

The fact that Pein's article has been published PRIOR to the release of cBS's report (when it would have made more sense to wait until afterwards) does make me wonder how much of a whitewash the cBS report is going to be, and whether or not it will cite Pein (and perhaps even Hailey's) 'work' in any effort to avoid responsibility.

The msm and academia are the 2 most dishonest institutions in American public life today - no surprise that Pein's article was produced at the point where the 2 intersect.

max

ps - please ignore gordon ALWAYS

412 zombie  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:57:50pm
#384 jeff1999 
Imagine going to school, going through a rigorous interview process, finally getting that job, and then finding out that your chosen profession isn't much of a "profession" any more and that any Tom, Dick or Polipundit is doing what you've "trained" years to do. Not only that, but they're doing a better job at it than you and the readers are figuring it out.
Ouch. That's gotta hurt.

The flipside of that coin, unfortunately, is that totally tragic little losers who spent three years in journalism school soaking up the Marxist brainwashing and learning how to inject their political views into every story are getting PAID to write their ill-conceived and picayune bleats, whereas people like Charles do it for the love of the truth, and nothing more. And then there's people like me, who on one hand get paid to disseminate inanities in the "legitimate" media, and then come to the Web and get paid nothing to do real journalism - because this is the only place it's happening. I'm straddling both worlds, and the iniquities are almost too much to bear.

413 Saxon Brother  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:58:01pm

Thank you LGFers ! Reading your fantastic demolition of the troll gordon was one of the funniest things I've read in ages. You guys & girls destroyed his pathetic arguments, forced him to backtrack and just plain nailed his LLL hide to the mast ! Thanks again for giving this Brit his best laugh of the evening. Go LGF !

414 steve miller  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:58:06pm

but the essence of the troll's argument is still "LOVE ME DADDY!"

415 harley  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 2:59:07pm

Corey is just trying to fit in with his cohorts...Make totally unsupported statements as proof.
Analysis was long & technical discouraging close examination. Translation...I'm too lazy/dumb to figure it out.

416 nuovo record  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:05:19pm

Evergreen State? I do believe that that institution also gave us the St. Pancake and the whole state the dubious and recent election for governor.

417 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:06:37pm
418 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:10:47pm
419 steve miller  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:13:35pm
(D9BUH)

OMGosh, that's funny!

420 reaganite  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:16:10pm

#418 Rayra

(D9BUH)

You sick bastid! :-Þ

Spew alert next time please?

421 jeff1999  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:17:23pm

412 Zombie,

Keep the faith, its always darkest before the dawn.

422 Charles  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:18:35pm

toddhisatva wrote:

Just use Courier, since Courier was endemic in the 1970s. Don't even mess with tabs, just use spaces -- Courier is monospaced.

I don't have Word on any of my computers (the less Microsoft, the better), but just doing this in WordPad on Windows is looking pretty close to typed pretty fast. In Courier New 10 (does Word have a wider selection of Couriers?) the default line spacing is 6-per-inch, matching the IBM Selectric.

But you missed my point, as I explained in the following paragraph:

Note that my point is not that you couldn't produce a document that looks typewritten to an untrained eye. This is possible without a lot of work. But it's much much harder to create in Word an exact reproduction of a document produced on a typewriter.

423 RMalloy  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:24:04pm

Besides, look at the contents of the Memos, the CO had retired the year before..........

424 quark2  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:24:59pm

As to the Nodrog hijacking another thread. He's pushing hard to prove how unfair Charles is by banning him. That's why he'e become uglier and uglier, because Charles has his number and Ignores him.
I've had the same eye surgery, to correct extreme near sightedness. Durn it didn't stop me from getting that high paying job I was after. Maybe I could use the fact that I'm STILL stone deaf in one ear as a pity party card. The only reason I didn't serve in the military is because of my deafness and nearsightedness back in the '60s.
Gordon is an ugly bitter image of Dorian Grey.

I think we should do as zombie says, and by the behaviour of Charles and IGNORE him.

/gordon down the memory hole.

425 RMalloy  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:27:12pm

Besides,

CBS would have done everything kind of investigative procedure possible after the 60 minutes fiasco to try to prove the documents were in fact, real. If CBS could have proved they were real they would have had them back out in a flash, so far, no one from CBS has done so.......

426 Geepers  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:30:49pm

Rayra (#417),

You'll also noticed that he labeled the link "How CBS's Critics Blew it".

427 Renna  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:31:27pm

#425 Rmallory

All the "proof" they would have needed to provide is find a typewriter available in the 70s and recreate them.

Poor proof indeed, as proving it could be done isn't the same thing as proving it was done.

And they couldn't even do that.

428 hazzyday  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:34:24pm

Will the Rathergate expose be typed?

Evergreen State is also a place that celebrates "Mumia" (sp) the cop killer. Nice school, shoddy students.

TANG service was dangerous just stepping up to it. GWB has served in Iraq. GWB has stepped up, when he needed to. He would have done the same in Nam if push came to shove. Kerry just got more geo-political.

I used to think the National Guard was part time. But they kick butt. Soldier of Fortune has some good articles on them in action.

I got a draft number, 278 or something like that. I volunteered. I never saw Nam. Kerry and Bush both did tougher jobs than I would have ever done. You fill in your Dream Sheet. The practical jokers at assignments then send to the opposite end of the world from where you want to go. Such is the military.

429 h0mi  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:38:45pm

Ah my almer mater (sort of)... it's where that asswipe Ted Rall went to college during his undergrad days. I was exposed to his cartoons in the Spectator... they seemed pretty ok given his drawing ability... he wasn't the Ted Rall he is today.

430 SoCalJustice  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:40:05pm
From Corey Pein's resume:
Voted “most likely to bring down a presidential administration” by Columbia classmates.

I'm imagining something ever so close (but just slightly different) to that on Monica Lewinsky's resume.

431 h0mi  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:42:56pm
Charles Johnson: Technically/scientifically rigorous methods used to advance an absurdity - that Bush didn't shirk military service.

No, Charles simply proved that these documents were terrible forgeries.

And, before anyone says "prove it!" I can tell you with certainty that is based upon plain old Perry Mason lawyerly inferences.

A person of George W. Bush's:

Age
Health
Socio-economic status
Educational background:

who didn't serve in Vietnam
who served in the National Guard

DIDN'T WANT TO SERVE IN VIETNAM, AND AVOIDED IT!

That wasn't what these documents

432 RMalloy  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:46:12pm

#431

Are you aware that members of the National Guard did serve in Vietnam?

433 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:49:13pm
434 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:50:21pm
435 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:54:01pm
436 h0mi  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:58:48pm
Charles Johnson: Technically/scientifically rigorous methods used to advance an absurdity - that Bush didn't shirk military service.

No, Charles simply proved that these documents were terrible forgeries. The documents, if true, might've lent credence to the idea that Bush shirked his duties in the NG. It has nothing to do with "draft dodging" or avoiding service in Vietnam.

And, before anyone says "prove it!" I can tell you with certainty that is based upon plain old Perry Mason lawyerly inferences.

A person of George W. Bush's:

Age
Health
Socio-economic status
Educational background:

who didn't serve in Vietnam
who served in the National Guard

DIDN'T WANT TO SERVE IN VIETNAM, AND AVOIDED IT!


That wasn't what these documents were about Gordon. It was about whether Bush was AWOL from his NG service.

What is your alternative explanation for why George W. Bush didn't serve in Vietnam?

Short answer- he joined the National Guard and was never deployed there.

And I noticed you are too cowardly to answer my question too - perhaps even a nonsensical non-answer like Cam has in #55 would suffice...

Would you at least recognize you're complaining about Charles not answering a question you had asked just 7 minutes earlier:


#49 Gordon 1/3/2005 01:38PM PST
#47 Charles: What is your alternative explanation for why George W. Bush didn't serve in Vietnam?
80 Gordon 1/3/2005 01:45PM PST

I'm barely 1/2 way through the comments. Heh.

437 Lyana  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 3:59:31pm

#390 Grafton

I'd be really surprised if this turned out to be urban legend - that Glurg site doesn't mention whether it vets things for accuracy or not; it's just a clearing house for "insperational stories".

Blackfive had that posted on his site a few weeks ago, and said that he had the info on the guy who sent it...

438 braindirt  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:04:14pm

#424 quark 2
I just looked in here and noticed that the GOON [that's Gordon minus the "rd"] had hijacked another another thread--- which is really a shame because the thread's theme needed honest discussion.
Like you pointed out, we should just ignore him--- or we're the goons.

439 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:05:15pm
440 reaganfan  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:06:37pm

to #119 zombie

Good post using evidence and logic.
Alas, using evidence and logic is out of favor in our elite institutions.
I went to a above average college in the mid-West, where all students were required to take three courses in philosophy. Of the courses that were available to fulfill the requirement, there was no course devoted to logic or reasoning.

441 cathyf  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:06:38pm

#151 Charles 

cathyf: I have to disagree; it's not trivially easy at all to exactly reproduce a typewritten document with Word. You would need to do extensive fiddling with typefaces, spacing, margins, line spacing, tabs, etc. etc. It would take a LONG time.

Ok, I'm willing to stand corrected there. Perhaps it's not trivial in MS Word like it is in many other text editors. I made the mistake of just assuming that it would be as easy in Word as it would be in other (cheaper) text-editors that I've used. (I don't use Word. I'm a programmer and don't need fancy word-processing often enough to justify spending $200. The copy of Star Office that I got off the Staples clearance table for $15 works fine for me.)

But anyway, Pein was muddying the waters: how difficult or trivial it is to use MSWord to fake the characteristic font, horizontal spacing and vertical spacing of typewritten output is totally irrelevant. Because the faked memos have the characteristic font and spacing of the MSWord at it's defaults, which in the early 1970s would only have been possible using a very expensive (as in hundreds of thousands of dollars) typsetting machine, which could only have been operated by a highly trained expert.

If the fakers had been more competent, then they would have at least tried to use MSWord with a monospaced font that looked like either 1970's pica or 1970's elite. I'm arguing that a different, smarter group of fakers might very well have gotten away with fakery, while you think that it would have been much harder. But all in all this is following Pein's diversion -- arguing about how competent those hypothetical competent fakers would have to be to fake some other hypothetical fake documents. It just helps Pein change the subject away from the embarrassingly clumsy fakes that CBS put before us.

cathy :-)

442 Loflyer  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:08:00pm

Hello Reaganite, sorry about the delays, family is taking up my time, 82 was when I got out, the squadron It was in was going down hill in quality and it was not as fun when I first came on board. At the time I wanted to change my rating to computers and they wouldn't let me, so I got out, and got a civi job working on mainframes. Times have changed and now I do computer networks. About five years ago I ran into a guy who had been in my squadron before I came in. It was fun to hear what had happened before my time, they used to have a lot more fun before I came on board. Work hard and play hard was my motto!

443 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:13:13pm
444 TotallySirius  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:16:31pm

As I asserted in #208,Pein is using logical fallacies(fallacy of the false burden) and resorting to the LLL playbook(aka the 3 deadly sins) which makes the point moot,this is akin to using forged documents to bolster one's assertions.

Totally.

445 ploome hineni[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:18:42pm
446 toddhisattva  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:19:13pm

#402 Geepers

It's "looking pretty close", you're going with that? Really?
Sorry but that just ain't gonna cut it.
You don't seem to even understand what the function of the tab feature is.

Calm down, please. Maybe go try it out: WordPad, Courier New 10, start type-writing.

Yes, absolutely, I'm going with "looking pretty close to typed pretty fast," because it took maybe a minute, and I'm not even using Word but little bitty play-toy WordPad.

cathyf nailed it: Word was designed to make typewriter-looking output, as well as typesetter-looking output, with equal ease.

If Word could not make typewriter-looking output, millions of Pointy-Haired Bosses would have made their secretaries use typewriters. Really and truly, the "look and feel" of something people were already *used to* was very important for the acceptance of word processors!

If you're old enough (not being sassy here) you can remember when teachers wouldn't accept work printed by dot-matrix impact printers. It didn't *look* like a typewriter. Even using a Smith-Corona typewriter that didn't use Courier was enough to upset some people, for them "typewriter" meant "IBM Selectric" and nothing else.

I'm not going to procure and install Word just to try this out. Not worth it. WordPad can easily ape a Selectric.

BUT, *NOT* good enough to fool me if you were to hand me a typewritten page and a WordPad page. Not for more than a few seconds, and I mean seconds.

However, if you put it through a few generations of primitive photocopying, well then I'd hire Dr. Newcomer -- I could guess, and it would be a very educated guess (see below), but Dr. Newcomer is much more expert than I.

I have a long history in printing, going back to hand-cranked presses. I've even done a little work on the hot-lead Linotypes that Dr. Newcomer mentions. Silkscreen, photography -- I think I've used every imaging technique there is except dye sublimation. Wait -- we did a project poster with dye-sub. Does uploading a huge EPS file count as "using an imaging technique?" On the input side, I've written film scanner drivers for Kodak and Nikon.

So, I do too know what a tab is for (nyah nyah!), and have implemented it the hard way with pieces of type in a metal frame.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that Charles may have made his challenge to Corey Pein much too easy. It's easy to ape a Selectric with software designed to do so!

447 vxbush  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:25:22pm

Back online, folks, although briefly; gotta get up early tomorrow for that work thing.

I must admit to a bit of frustration; I want to be involved in all the conversations, but (a) I have had no military experience, and as I am not LLL that means I'm not going to lie about it or try to bluff my way through such a discussion; (b) y'all do such a good job posting rebuttals, facts, etc. etc. that there's not much left for me to do; and (c) that darned thing called LIFE keeps getting in my way. You know, eating, sleeping, working, driving. Commuting drives me nuts sometimes.

We've got doctors to help with the medical stuff; we've got military folks with lots of experience; do we need a math geek? When you need someone to play with statistics, I can provide there.

Otherwise, I will continue to lurk in the shadows, reading and enjoying the give-and-take with a GAZE every now and then.

-vxbush

448 Charles  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:25:37pm

toddhisatva: I appreciate the comments, but again I think you're missing my point. Yes, you can sit down with Word and create a document that looks as if it might have come from a typewriter, to a casual eye.

But it is much harder to use Word to recreate an actual typewritten document, to the point where you can overlay them and produce an exact match.

449 By the Numbers  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:26:58pm

Charles is in the house?!

All hail Lizard Master! [grovels on the floor]

We're not worthy!

We're not worthy!

450 By the Numbers  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:32:14pm

BTW

Has anyone seen Carolina Girl and the Lizardettes?

It's always a party when these fine Lizards are strutting their scaley stuff on a thread....

[bwahahahahahaha]

451 SuperChachi  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:43:45pm

Dear CJR Editors:

In an age where being a "journalist" only requires an internet connection and lack of agenda, I thought the piece on Blog-Gate was very brave. With the advantage of a spectator's hindsight, I think it took gobs of courage for Cory Pein to completely miss the point or purposely neglect some pesky tidbits that tie Memogate to something more than incompetent mistakes by CBS.

Pein's conspicuous omission that the "memos" made their way through a fax at an Abilene Kinko's was very slick. It works seamlessly with the absence of any mention that Mary Mapes had communication with the Kerry campaign and furnished Bill Burkett with Mad Max Cleland's cell phone number. Without those two elements, CJR can plead journalistic incompetence by intentionally ignoring facts that make Memogate not a story about how bloggers got to the truth so quickly, but rather a story of how the Kerry campaign and CBS were in collusion to dethrone a sitting president with documents they knew to be fake. Continuing the legacy of misunderestimating the new power of blogs, CJR is following CBS into irrelevance.

Behold the MSM death rattle.

chachi
[Link: www.spanktuary.blogspot.com...]

452 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 4:53:40pm
453 Sarah D.  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 5:13:03pm

#452 Rayra

you can measure the size of your cv codpiece all you want

LOL!

No...not the codpiece!

Hey all, it was a forgery of a fake document okay? That's already been figured out, long ago...and even CBS isn't denying it.

Okay, eveyone got that now?

:-)

[Some folks will agonize over things forever!]

454 toddhisattva  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 5:18:15pm

#422 Charles

I just want you to be the bestest most accurate blogmeister possible.

But you missed my point, as I explained in the following paragraph:

Note that my point is not that you couldn't produce a document that looks typewritten to an untrained eye. This is possible without a lot of work. But it's much much harder to create in Word an exact reproduction of a document produced on a typewriter.

Uhhh -- maybe I'm getting lost.

Mr. Pein’s assertion that a person can “make a replica of almost any document using Word” is ridiculous, and completely untrue.

Here I'm completely and totally in agreement....that's what Acrobat is for ;-)

On September 13 I decided to test my hypothesis that the documents were fake by attempting to recreate a verified genuine typewritten document from George W. Bush’s National Guard records, and discovered that it was extremely difficult to create a document that was an exact match (in fact, I gave up after about an hour’s work).

Drudge, bless him, still has the document to which you linked in your 9/13 attempt.

Very importantly, it has been distorted by photocopying! It is no longer a "genuine typewritten document," but a badly copied genuine typewritten document -- slapped on the copier slanted, dirty glass, and so on.

No wonder you couldn't match it, even with an hour of work.

I stand by my guess, that it is quite easy to mimic a typewritten document with software designed to mimic a typewriter.

But lo! Not only do I not have Word installed, I have no Selectric to compare it to, just memories of Selectrics. Even now I can remember the way they felt, how they seemed to pull the keys down, so nice after growing up with a manual.

My urge to go to a museum to try this stuff out is getting severe :-)

If Corey Pein can produce an exact copy of a typewritten document using Microsoft Word, matching every element of spacing and typography, in five minutes of work—as he asserts—I’ll retract everything I’ve written here.

I'm just thinking this challenge to Corey Pein was too easy. He's going to find a Selectric, type something, then match it with Word, and you'll have to issue a retraction.

Unless I'm lost and missed something.

455 steve miller  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 5:29:40pm

Todd - if you ever lose your keys in hot lava, well, then, let them go, man.

And equally, you're missing the point - let it go, man. The point is that (here, I will speak slowly):

You can easily duplicate these documents using MS Word with all Word's default values.

You could, of course, use other software programs to mimic it as well, but you couldn't do so using the default values.

I suggest you go back to the original postings that started this whole meme, and then come back.

I don't deny your expertise in typography. But you continually miss the point: these documents most closely match the default output of MS Word than they do of any other known software program available today, and they do not - repeat, DO NOT - match the output of any known typeWRITER extant.

456 toddhisattva  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 5:34:14pm

#452 Rayra

The point is the forged memos where matched EXACTLY with MS Word using its DEFAULT settings.

Absolutely correct.

And not at all what we're addressing, which is "If Corey Pein can produce an exact copy of a typewritten document using Microsoft Word."

457 Geepers  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 5:42:48pm

toddhisattva (#454),

I stand by my guess

OK then.

But what exactly are you trying to prove?

458 quark2  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 5:45:19pm

@454
You're neither lost or confused. Your But negates everything you've posted. Maybe you need to do as Rayra has suggested and visit Charles' archives.
Otherwise I am of the opinion you're nothing more than a troll wearing sugar icing to hide your true intent.

There's several of us posters at LGF that have a fine sense of smell for trollage.

459 toddhisattva  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 5:47:23pm

Hey, I understand that it's late and Corey Pein is a pain and that's why y'all are angry.

Please, y'all go read post #128, carefully this time.

It will do wonders for y'all's blood pressure.

460 BillinDC  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 5:48:56pm

Not sure if this has been covered in a previous post (with over 450 I haven't read all of them!) but I just did a quick search at the Columbia web site for anything related to Corey Pein. In the words of our great lizaroid minion leader, this is what a search under "people search results for Corey Pein" shows:

" "

Try it yourself, fellow lizardoid minions. Go to [Link: www.columbia.edu...] -- click on search and directories and type in the LLL Corey Pein. Get zippo. Try again with Corey under the department of "Journalism, School of" and you will still get this as a search result for Corey Pain:

" "

Perhaps there is a fellow lizardoid who is a current Columbia student (or is friends with someone who is) who can look up CP in a Columbia e-mail directory?

If Corey Pein is not a curent Columbia student is the Columbia Journalism Review committing journalistic fraud by publishing the writing of a student that does not exist?

461 steve miller  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 5:53:27pm

Good grief, man, isn't a bit early for the FNDT? Todd, Todd, step away from the bottle...

462 Bill M  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 6:06:56pm

"The Evergreen State College

Olympia, WA

B.A., liberal arts -- September 2003

* Studied economics, politics and philosophy. Thesis on domestic propaganda in the war on terrorism."

----------

Above from Pein's resume. For those unfamiliar with it, Evergreen is an ultra-liberal college in the fine state of Washington. Another name that might be familiar with an Evergreen College connection is the late, unlamented Rachel Corrie, last seen flattened by an Israeli bulldozer while defending Palestinian terrorists rights to dig tunnels to bring in arms.

463 TGregg  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 6:07:30pm

Rejoice. The left *still* does not understand that they've lost their MSM monopoly. How long will this last? I dunno, but they've proved to have some thick skulls when it comes to understanding how truth is much more accesible than it was.

If it keeps up, we can expect more of the same nonsense as the next election cycle comes around. Eventually, they'll figure it out, but until they do a lot of "moderates" will look at them, shake their heads and vote for us.

464 quark2  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 6:12:39pm

@459

GAZE


/down the memory hole

465 steve miller  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 6:19:06pm

American owns his own gun? BAD!
So-called Palestinian blows up Jewish grandmothers and babies in pizza parlors? GOOD

Bush serves his country in the National Guard? BAD!
Clinton runs away to Oxford to avoid military service? GOOD!

Bush releases his records (or allows them to be released), and we have access to the originals? BAD!
Kinko's in Texas produces a document purporting to be from a dead man's Type Compositor in the 70s, and the original documents don't exist, but only many-generations-removed faxes remain? GOOD!

Bush and Americans donate hundreds of millions of dollars? BAD!
Arafat steals millions, Annan's son steals millions, Saddam steals millions from desperately poor people, and line their own pockets with their stolen money? GOOD!

Jimmuh Carter attacked by killer rabbit? PRETTY DARN FUNNY!

466 CanadianBacon  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 6:36:17pm

#399 thefish

Thanks, 'fish, for the kind words


#463 TGregg

"a lot of 'moderates' will look at them, ...and vote for us"

I think I am a moderate. I carry no party cards but I listen to both sides, apply a little reason, and vote conservative every time. The alternatives just smell funny...

467 htom  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 6:51:51pm

While it might be possible to create a great forgery of a period TANG typewriter using Word, the point is that THESE documents were NOT so forged, and don't even look like period TANG typewriter documents!

468 frankwolftown  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 7:08:53pm

#19 soonerborn
I have been looking everywhere and all I found was this. If you look at it, it was all articles from July of last year. I guess that didn't pan so there is no telling what will happen here. I did take the liberty of asking the guys over at Iraq the Model. If any can she any light on this, they can!

469 HUSKER  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 7:23:54pm

It's hysterical the lengths of research these asswipes go to to write this piece, but we wouldn't even be having this discussion if See B.S. gave their story 1/100,000 of the effort!

470 satan sidekick  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 7:28:57pm

quark


trollage? A new word invented by quark. LOL

I love it!

471 steve miller  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 7:37:13pm

OT: This just in:

anagram of New York Times == Monkeys Write
[Link: www.wordsmith.org...]

472 geezer  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 7:47:40pm

the Droll Troll advises that the Journalism school is almost as pitiful as the football team. he says almost because the team did win one game. rah=rah=rah
journalism school bah=bah=bah

473 Bill M  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 7:55:36pm

Ahhh, A-7s

Memories -- Squadron Officer's School, 1972 -- Bumper Sticker

"A-7 drivers go in slower, stay longer, and drop a bigger load."

Another one --

"Missile Men have more thrust"

----------
Geez, flashbacks! Thanks reaganite and and loflyer!

474 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 8:11:11pm

#472 Geezer

What, they have a football team?

475 Baldy  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 8:11:45pm

First you all said Bush went to his dentist in Alabama, now Charles is saying

Bush's TANG days

he worked at Cape Kennedy.

476 Bubble Girl  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 8:14:11pm

Even they were perfect forgeries right down to the same typewriter somehow dug up in someone's basement, the content of the Memo's are still laughably written by someone not familiar with that period and they contain a Commanding Officer who had retired the year before. Whoever wrote the forgeries didn't even check out who was even there at that time.

477 RMalloy  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 8:34:29pm

#460 BillinDC

That's interesting that Corey Pein is possibly a non-student at Columbia or even a fake name.......

478 zombie  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 9:34:01pm
#471 steve miller 
anagram of New York Times == Monkeys Write

Even better:

Salman Rushdie = Read, Shun Islam

479 RichatUF  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 9:49:47pm


cathyf

If the fakers had been more competent, then they would have at least tried to use MSWord with a monospaced font that looked like either 1970's pica or 1970's elite

No, they would have went to a yard sale and bought a Royal 1970's model for 10 bucks.


RichatUF

480 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jan 3, 2005 10:27:43pm

#477 RMalloy

That's interesting that Corey Pein is possibly a non-student at Columbia or even a fake name.......

Like Naughtius Maximus or Biggus Dickus.

481 hm  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 3:08:33am

#479 RichatUF,

If you want to forge a typewriter document a good start is to use a typewriter.

Unfortunately, that sort of logic is beyond the likes of Bill Burkett.

482 Lightning_Man  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 4:31:31am

Corey Pein has graduated and is now an assistant editor at the Columbia Journalism Review.

Sorry, no story there.

483 RickZ  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 5:44:17am

# 201 Gordon:

In retrospect, the Vietnam War looks like a huge mistake. What it looked like at the time I can't tell you. It turned out, of course, to be completely unnecessary, since the Soviet Union would have collapsed in 1989 even if it had never been fought.

That deserves an "Oh my G-d!" Now Gordon is taking the Hari Seldon course in psychohistory, too? How can you even begin to predict that the pressure on the Soviet Union, in the form of supporting the North Vietnamese, did not have a cumulative effect, along with Reagan's 1980's policies, in leading to the Soviet Union's demise? While the czar's ministers invented the Potempkin Village, it was the Soviets who were its greatest theorists and practioners. The Soviet Union was a country whose economy was build upon a House of Cards. A House of Cards moved freely around the country to lie to the unbelieving West (sounds familair, no?) how robust and strong the failing communist theory was.

484 Gordon  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 6:38:22am

#471:

This just in: anagram of Steve Miller = Rossi Shillhead.

485 Geepers  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 6:42:24am

This just in: Gordon doesn't know what an anagram is.

486 azul93gt  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 6:43:49am

Gordon's favorite word: shill

487 cathyf  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 7:11:36am

The whole Bush-the-Shirker meme is based upon the most central belief of the LLL in the US, namely that the USSR was never our enemy, and we should have had the American Communist Party take over the US and turn it into a Worker'sParadisetm. The Cold War was just the Dr. Strangeloves in the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy tm, inventing a "danger" to manipulate the Stupid Sheeptm of the American public so that the Evil Capitalists could continue to exploit the Working Class, especially women and minorities.

So if the USSR was not a threat, then the vast numbers of people mobilized to protect the US against Soviet attack for four decades were not actually doing anything. So even though Bush spent 4 years flying hundreds of hours in a notoriously dangerous nuclear-armed fighter-interceptor jet, he must have been a slacker. Because if you admit that Bush was doing part of the dangerous job of protecting the US mainland from attack from a dangerous adversary, you first have to admit that the USSR was a dangerous adversary. To the people who believe that we should have preemptively surrendured to Stalin in the 30's, that will just never do...

cathy :-)

488 Gordon  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 8:04:56am

And, of course, Charles' favorite "debating" technique, the ad hominem attack:

From Corey Pein’s resume:
Voted “most likely to bring down a presidential administration” by Columbia classmates.

More red meat for LGF goondom, Charles?

And before anyone accuses "the pot calling the kettle black," I'm just a lowly troll. Charles is aspiring to a higher position, with his pretensions of LGF becoming part of the new bloggo MSM.

489 toddhisattva  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 8:08:37am

#441 cathyf

Ok, I'm willing to stand corrected there.

....regarding....

#151 Charles


cathyf: I have to disagree; it's not trivially easy at all to exactly reproduce a typewritten document with Word. You would need to do extensive fiddling with typefaces, spacing, margins, line spacing, tabs, etc. etc. It would take a LONG time.

cathyf, you need not stand corrected, since you were correct to begin with!

Our Lizard Master thinks he has compared Word to a typewritten document.

He has not!

He has compared Word to a poorly copied typewritten document.

His challenge to Corey Pein is unwisely worded, and he will need to issue a retraction to Pein because of this mistake.

This will be unfortunate, as Little Green Footballs will become known as the blog that had to issue a retraction.

(And some of the illiterates here think I'm trolling. Sheesh.)

Again, Charles is basing his challenge to Corey Pein on an experiment which had nothing to do with his challenge.

Charles did not compare Word to a Selectric. He compared Word to a photocopy.

And Charles will have to issue a retraction to an idiot who isn't fit to lick his lizard boots.

(as for the "illiterates," I am accepting apologies, but have been online far too long to expect any)

490 Geepers  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 8:24:33am

toddhisattva,

Charles did not compare Word to a Selectric.

Huh?

And why does Charles need to post a retraction?

Have you used Word (or any other program) to exactly match a typewritten document? Or is this all based on your "guessing" that it's possible?

491 Gordon  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 8:46:05am

Charles needs to post lots of retractions, but not for this particular item.

492 Powderfinger  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 8:54:23am

#390 Grafton

The whole thing is 100% made up tripe, which won't stop it from being emailed everywhere for the next three years.

What tells you that it's made up tripe? I don't see anything on Glurge that debunks it.

Let's look back to what you had to say on 12/17:

It's simple enough. There just needs to be one, verifiable detail. The name of the Gunny and/or the unit. If it's true, its a great story and should go wide. If it's not true, then it needs to be revealed as a fiction.

The Glurge version contains the name of the Gunny, as well as his wife, and the relative who had sent the boxes of toys to the unit in question.

So, here's more than one verifiable detail. Have you attempted to verify them? Have you proven them unverifiable? Or are you just blowing this out of your ass because you like doing that sort of thing?

Are you calling Matt at Blackfive a liar? Is the Gunny a liar? Is his wife a liar?

Where does this become "100% made up tripe", Grafton? And why do you insist that it's false when you have no evidence of that?

493 steve miller  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 9:01:56am

Let the keys go, man. They're toast.

And I love the "Dorian Grey" reference -- except that it's so unfair.

To Dorian Grey.

494 steve miller  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 9:27:27am

Must really hurt when Daddy ignores you.

"LOVE ME DADDY!"

Maybe scream it louder?

495 Roger  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 10:28:31am

#489 toddhisattva

Pein:

you could make a replica of almost any document using Word

Charles:

I’ve actually tried to do this. On September 13 I decided to test my hypothesis that the documents were fake by attempting to recreate a verified genuine typewritten document from George W. Bush’s National Guard records, and discovered that it was extremely difficult to create a document that was an exact match (in fact, I gave up after about an hour’s work).

And rightly so because it can't be done(with Word - Word does not provide all the options needed because it wasn't intended for creating forgeries).

toddhisattva, your argument is fallacious. Your hinging on the further distortions introduced by (multi)photocopying. Your claiming that it can't be compared because you can't fathom modeling these extra photocopy distortions. Requires an iterative approach which may not be something you do often. Some of us who have done pattern recognition work find it trivial. And as it turned out Charles didn't need extensive pattern recognition algorithms to model photcopy effects and identify the CBS forgery.
Pein and you(via Cathy) claim that even more difficult cases are easy to do with Word. In your case you claim the photocopying stops forensic analysis cold. Not so. Pain's claim shows a person in awe of simply silly document software such as Word and claims it can do miracles in replicating typed/any documents and you claim his statement can't be challenged because of photocopying distortions. Words can't describe your utterly technically-challenged buffoonery.

There are ways to forge documents but none involve Word and the approach chosen by intentionally-lethargic LLLs in the throws of BDS.

496 steve miller  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 12:15:56pm

well, given an ENORMOUS amount of time, and a great deal of patience, you MIGHT come close to re-creating these actual typewritten documents in Word -- but it would be EXTREMELY tedious. For example, you might embed Postscript™ code, or you might use twips to more accurately align the text, or you might use the drawing layer and then create a document dot by dot...but the thing is, you couldn't just do this by typing a document in Word and then comparing it to a typewriter. IT DOESN'T MATCH.

You can, however, create a document that is so close to these forgeries using the default settings in Word as to make a laughingstock of anyone who asserts - even on national TV - that they are "actual factual documents as verified by my typewriter repairman."

497 Grafton  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 12:31:40pm

#492 Powderfinger

If you've read the whole thing, the 'setup' letter from the 'wife', the references to the 'mother-in-law', and how the Gunny knew the teddy (or Ohio Beanie Baby) was actually one from his M.I.L., etc etc, you can't possibly believe the story is true. It is pure hokum and is even now being emailed everywhere. Next stop, Snopes.

498 grafton  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 12:39:44pm

#492 Powderfinger.

There's so much bogus in that 'story', but just consider this one point. The 'Gunny' says that stopping a convoy in the middle or the road is very dangerous. He says the 'command vehicle' orders them to drive around the 'little girl'. Then, because he 'feels a connection', HE stops the convoy in the middle of the road.

Yeah, right.

499 cathyf  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 2:03:21pm

#452 Rayra

I'm equally surprised that cathyf, who has been here long enough to have registered HER account the day the registration system went hot, yet somehow she too missed all the deeply-detailed discussion of the ins and outs of these forgeries and the efforts to replicate their production, typing here now with little apparent appreciation of how exacting the process has been, and how very very finite an issue it is (to match these forgeries).

Ok, I know that the thread is long dead, but you called me a troll and I'm going to respond even though no one will read it.

My point, stated several times, is that the whole using-word-to-forge-typewritten-documents is a red herring, brought up by a logic-challenged cretin. In response to the logic-challenged cretin, Charles has volunteered that he would consider the fakes to be proven authentic if MSWord could be used to fake a typewritten document. My assertion (and Todd's, too, I think) is that the Burkett/Mapes/Rather/DNC fakes have been proven beyond any doubt to be fakes, and they will still be fakes even in the very-unlikely event that the logic-challenged cretin manages to create a convincing fake of a typewritten document with Word.

Pein claims that it is possible for Jerry Killian to produce 1990's output using 1970's tools because it is possible to produce 1970's output using 1990's tools. That is an utterly absurd argument. I retracted the part about creating "typewritten" text with MSWord being "trivial" many posts back, but I still claim that there is a humongous difference in that it is flat out impossible for Killian to have forged the default MSWord settings with 1970's tools. Arguing about how difficult it is to accomplish an MSWord forgery of typewritten text is bad because it dignifies Pein's utterly moronic assertion with an intelligent, but besides-the-point, answer. (Pein's assertion is so stupid that any engagement of it which is intelligent is bound to be besides the point.)

cathy :-)

500 Powderfinger  Tue, Jan 4, 2005 3:49:30pm

#497, 498 Grafton

In other words, you've got absolutely no fucking evidence whatsoever, and you're not going to even attempt to verify or discredit the information available to you before pronouncing it bunk.

You just know.

Guess what, Grafton? You don't know. Moonbat feelings=reality logic generally doesn't float here.

If you think you have the truth, I'd suggest you start with going to the people who've brought the story to you, and explain to them that they're liars and/or dupes.

Start with Matt. And be sure to let us know how your blowing assumptions out your ass investigation pans out.

501 Grafton  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 4:14:17pm

Matt at Blackfive has been unable to get any response from the parties concerned, despite having made efforts to contact them. The four reporters he told the story too have also been unable to verify any part of it.

Because it's a made-up GLURGE. Some element of it may be true (a little girl was given a teddy-bear) but the rest of the story was probably inspired by this:

THE CHOCOLATE BAR
THE OLD SERGEANT SERIES (8)
By Steve Newton


The old sergeant was on patrol with his squad when he spotted a young man sitting on the curb. Skin and bones with what appeared to be a bullet wound in his left hand. The sergeant stopped, checked his patrol and then sat down beside the young man who eyed him with deep-seated suspicion.

Reaching inside his shirt the sergeant pulled out a chocolate bar and handed it to the young man. While he was wolfing it down the sergeant pulled out his first aid kit and sprinkled anti septic powder on the wound and then bandaged the hand. The young man looked at the sergeant with wonder as he rejoined his patrol.

“Careful sarge, someone might think you have a heart,” one of his men shouted. “Check your orders stupid. We’re supposed to give aid to the locals,” the old sergeant growled. The patrol went well and soon they were back in their compound.

Several days later the sergeant was again on patrol, one of a seemly endless series. His men were all veterans and he noticed with pride that they were scattered out and moved with a calm self-assurance. Very little chatter, they knew each other so well that just a hand sign or even a look from the sergeant was enough to move someone into position.

Time passed and dusk settled over the slums of Baghdad. The hairs on the back of the old sergeant started to rise and he motioned for his men to take cover. Out of a dark alley an indistinct form suddenly charged the old sergeant and before he could even raise his rifle the form hit him full on knocking him off his feet. A that very moment a shot range out and suddenly the air was filled with small arms fire as the sergeant struggled out from under the person who had knocked him to the ground. The figure was not moving so the sergeant immediately added his fire to the mass of outgoing coming from his platoon.

As usually happed the firefight was over as quick as it began although it seemed like a lifetime. The old sergeant called out to his men and got a response from them all. They had been lucky. If the man had not charged out of the alley they would have been caught flat-footed.

Walking back to the alley the sergeant saw a small bundle of rags with a bandaged hand sticking out of a sleeve that was way to large for the young man wearing it. A large bloodstain covered his back. Turning the man over the sergeant was shocked to see that it was the young man who he had shared a chocolate bar with only days ago.

Bending down beside the young man, the old sergeant heard him whisper: “I no let them kill.” The young man had taken a bullet meant for the sergeant. “No son, you no let them kill me. You did good.” At this the young man closed his eyes.

Two months later a young man arrived at an orphanage in the deep woods of Southern Missouri. This orphanage was used to receiving children from an unknown source, all with legal government paperwork. They had taken in over 20 kids from all over the world over a period of years. And as usual a rather large check came from an anonymous donor every month.

Steve Newton
NEWTON’S BEST OF THE BEST MILITARY SITE
Home of the “Old Sergeant Series” and “Patton Speaks.”
[Link: steven.newton1.home.att.net...]
The “Old Sergeant Series” is fictional and is written to express a point or to provide an insight.

502 Powderfinger  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 4:58:22pm
Matt at Blackfive has been unable to get any response from the parties concerned, despite having made efforts to contact them.

How do you know this? Do you have some correspondence from Matt telling you this?

The four reporters he told the story too have also been unable to verify any part of it.

How do you know this? Have you corresponded with them? Are these the reporters he was going to go find when he said:

If someone from the MSM wants the story, I'll help them. But good luck, people. I've been sending stories like this for the last two years.

I wonder if he was trying to say he couldn't verify it when he said:

...for the skeptics from Snopes - welcome! You've helped prove my posts before [Link: www.blackfive.net...]

I'd really like to see where Matt has changed his tune on the veracity of the story.

Because it's a made-up GLURGE.

And you're psychic! Because you know things that no one else could possibly know based on the evidence at hand. Hell, we even know the inspiration now. As long as there's fiction regarding troops on patrol interacting with the locals, this story can't possibly be true, eh?

So, who is the liar, Grafton? If it's made up, certainly you can tell us who made it up. Point out the culprit, Clouseau. Show us the evidence.

And then I'll stop wondering why you're so excited about shouting this story down.

503 Grafton  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 5:44:57pm

The story can't possibly be true because it ludicrous on its face. As in unbelievable. Just look at this part of it:

"The command vehicle told the lead to simply go around her and to be kind as they did."

So the convoy goes around the girl, but the Gunny decides to disobey the order:

"Feeling an immediate connection to the girl, I radioed that we were going to stop.
The rest of the convoy paused and I got out the make sure she was OK."

Uh... I don't think that's the way it works in the military. What, did the commander say 'Gunny says stop. Everyone stop'? Come on.

And the business about the 'mine' is ridiculous too. What good would a mine be in the middle of a travelled road? Was it laid seconds before the convoy came along? In broad daylight? If it was laid earlier, then the first vehicle to go over it would have surely tripped it, no?

You see, Powderfinger, the story makes no sense at all. None. But it's been emailed everywhere, read on Rush's show, people have sobbed over it... It is 100 pc fabricated hokum nonsense. You have to be wilfully dedicated to believing it to ignore the obvious reasons it is a fake.

504 Powderfinger  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:07:32pm

Still no evidence, then? Why did you say that Matt can't verify it? When did he tell you that? What about the reporters? Where did you get the information you just presented to us as fact?

I'm not insisting that it is true. I accept the possibility that it might not be true. What I don't accept your certainty that it isn't true, which is what you've been insisting since it first broke.

Where did you get the information in this paragraph?

Matt at Blackfive has been unable to get any response from the parties concerned, despite having made efforts to contact them. The four reporters he told the story too have also been unable to verify any part of it.

Why am I having to ask this question for the second time? Why are you trying to explain how Marine patrols work to me? Why do I think you've never been on one?

505 Powderfinger  Wed, Jan 5, 2005 6:28:48pm
Uh... I don't think that's the way it works in the military. What, did the commander say 'Gunny says stop. Everyone stop'? Come on.

Exactly what is it that you think they're doing when they're on patrol? Ya think it might occassionally include stopping to check things out? Ya think a guy who's made it to E-7 in the USMC couldn't possibly say "Hold on. I wanna check this out." while on patrol?

506 Grafton  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 1:09:58pm

In reference to stopping, Gunny Francis (if it was him writing) already says that stopping would be 'unusual' and 'dangerous'. Common sense says you don't halt a convoy under those circumstances. If anything, you radio the civilian authorities to investigate.

Matt emailed me to say he has not been able to get permission from Colleen Francis to put her in touch with 'numerous reporters' he has gotten interested in the story. It's not quite clear, but it seems he has had no reply from her at all. It's only a guess, but this is probably because the email address he is emailing is a fake 'dummy' account, invented by the author of the glurge.

Powderfinger, I'm glad you accept the possibility it's a fake. I am certain it is becuase it follows almost exactly the format of such fakes. It is not a believable narrative. This kind of stuff, being passed off as real, doesn't help anyone. It's good to denounce it. I think that Matt, who seems like a terrific guy and very straight up, will publish a retraction when he's sure. The waste of his time trying to follow up on this is a perfect example of why Glurge is a nuisance and needs to be indentified as such as soon as possible.

507 Grafton  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 1:33:26pm

Oh -- just one more thing. I don't post peoples emails, I don't think it's polite. You are, of course, free to write to Matt if you doubt what I've said here. But he'll tell you the same.

508 Powderfinger  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:02:40pm
It's only a guess...

Your thesis in a nutshell.

What I'd really like is for you to email me, so that I can confirm with Matt that you've been corresponding with him, and that the details are as you've related them here, scant as they may be.

Just click my nic.

509 Powderfinger  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 5:09:02pm
Common sense says you don't halt a convoy under those circumstances.

Good thing it wasn't a convoy, huh? :-)

510 Grafton  Thu, Jan 6, 2005 7:04:00pm

Ah yes. Well the 'Gunny' seems a little confused about that:

"On one such patrol, our lead security vehicle stopped in the middle of the street."

but in the next few graphs:

"The rest of the convoy paused...
Immediately a cordon was set as the Marine convoy ...
even through the inconveniences of conflict that saved that convoy from hitting that mine."

Convoy or patrol? Patrol or convoy? Or just sloppy fiction? ;)

You can certainly check with Matt - he's at blackfive@gmail.com Mention you're following up on "Jack's' enquiry about the 'Little Girl Story.

511 Powderfinger  Sat, Jan 8, 2005 5:10:56am

I'll do that. Funny, I still don't see anything on his blog about this being a hoax.

I'm still awfully interested in the rest of your theory.

Is Gunny Francis just confused and sloppy, or is he lying? Are you more familiar with the conduct and practices of Marines on patrol than he is? Or does he not exist? Was Matt was pulling our leg about knowing who he is?

Tell us, Grafton. Who is the liar here?

Since you just know so much about this story, surely you can answer that question.

512 Grafton  Sat, Jan 8, 2005 8:07:21am

Powderfinger -- calm yourself. No one is calling anyone a liar. Matt is trying to find out if he was spoofed. He is trying to contact the Gunny and/or wife. After several weeks, he has not had a reply. That's why he has, as he told me, been in touch with 'two or three Urban Legend sites'. Matt certainly posted the story in good faith and will certainly post a correction in time. Simply put, the story doesn't hang together. Mines are not being planted in the streets or Iraq, IEDs are. Real Marines know the difference between the two, as they know the difference between Patrols and Convoys. That was not MY confusion, but the 'Gunny's'.

Look, Powderfinger. I know you want to believe this story. But sometimes you just have to look at the facts, read between the lies and be able to tell the difference between truth and fiction. So just hang in their. Be patient. Take a deep breath. Someone also posted the email address of Mark J Francis, USMC on Blackfive.net. It's on the original thread.

513 Powderfinger  Sat, Jan 8, 2005 8:59:38am
Matt is trying to find out if he was spoofed.

But you already know he was, right? I'm sure I don't need to link to the numerous occassions on which you've declared outright that this is GLURGE!

Look, Powderfinger. I know you want to believe this story.

Not nearly as much as you want to disbelieve it. After all, it was you that came right out of the gate calling bullshit, because you just knew! I also notice that this discussion seems to be your raison d'etre at LGF.

After all, this story really has very little meaning in the big picture. There are many other stories regarding interaction between our troops and Iraqi civilians in general and children in particular. While heartwarming, this story is probably less significant than this one. Yet you seem to have some compulsion to see that we all disbelieve it, simply because you do. Why is that?

But sometimes you just have to look at the facts, read between the lies and be able to tell the difference between truth and fiction.

Looking at the facts is a fabulous idea! Unfortunately, you haven't provided any facts that disprove the story. You've given us your opinion, and restated it again and again as if it were fact, but it isn't. It seems to me that the burden of proof is on you to provide something more than your incredible intuition and editorial critiques.

It's an awfully simple story, and it's entirely plausible. If you have some facts to support your contention, that would be fine. Your opinions and suppositions aren't getting the job done.


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