Wow Rayra that was DEEP.

So our suspicions are confirmed...looks like it's back to respectful letter writing on this one.

effers.

Holy shit. I was just thinking today that this isn't over until the thing is complete, and that we still need to be vigilant.

The fight isn't over, folks.

Why do these people hate themselves sooo much?

Well, you know we wouldn't want too make them mad at us, would we? I mean, they might try to kill US servicemembers and even *gasp* US civilians abroad! You know, they may even try to kill Americans in the USA! This is unheard of in 2005!

/sarc off

#1 Rayra

Don't hold anything back.

OK, how do we now get that architect bounced from the project?

The fight is still on folks.

Be vigilant.

Rayra has me beat on the deepest first post. ;^)

#6 mbruce

To be fair, if I was as utterly f**ked in the head as the designers, I'd hate myself too.

On a related topic, I saw a commercial tonight for the Showtime series Sleeper Cell. Has anybody heard anything about this?

Were I a muslim, I believe I would be offended by the use of my religious symbols in connection with the murder of forty people by terrorists claiming to act for me, in the name of my religion.

It will be a nice dog park, perhaps pot-bellied pigs also.

OMG this gets more unbelievable by the day. Is there any way to get a massive petition going?

#3 Bob's Kid 11/30/2005 08:03PM PST

So our suspicions are confirmed...looks like it's back to respectful letter writing on this one.

respectful?

Who do we write to?

Who is behind this travesty? Who chose this architect and why is he doing radical islam's bidding? Who's going to put up with it?

There are still 44 translucent blocks on the flight path to the crash site, matching the total number of dead, instead of just the forty translucent blocks that are dedicated to the forty murdered Americans.

Spraypaint "Muslim Terrorist" on four of the translucent blocks.

Color me shocked; elitest "artist" and company revel in putting one over on us proles. And how proud he must be of his "inclusive" move, using 44 translucent blocks to count the terrorists among the victims.

Thank goodness for the internet. We'll get the word out, even if the MSM won't.

Contemptable only begins to describe it...

#17 NiceLass

Internet petitions tend to do nothing. We need to find out who has the authority to replace this architect and lean on him/her/them... HARD.

He just needs to be gone.

also 44 blocks WTF that includes the 4 goat fucking murderers

This is unbelievable.

Who 'owns' this memorial?

I think it's time to launch a takeover. It happened with the inaptly named 'International Freedom Center' and it needs to happen here.

Look, they don't fear 'us' like they fear Islamic Terrorists. We aren't going to kill anyone. But, we need to get them where it hurts, thier funding, thier status, etc.

Hey Claw Man! :)

Wow, that's some serious analysis, prayer times will be marked by the sun and everything. The artist spent a lot of time making sure to please our enemies.

By the way, why does the federal government fund art? Sort of like education, there are a huge number of problems which go away if it's left to the private sector. In the case of education, poor people could get education stamps where the feds pay the school.

We need a Take Back the Memorial-style group to spearhead the effort to derail this abomination.

Perhaps the cruelest cut of all...

There are still 44 translucent blocks on the flight path to the crash site, matching the total number of dead, instead of just the forty translucent blocks that are dedicated to the forty murdered Americans.

I loathe the times we live in. A memorial that "embraces" the murderers as well as the murdered should be burned down.

Who the hell's idea was this, really? Perhaps the Pajamas media squad could look into who's funding this obscenity. My guess is that somehow, somewhere the Saudis stepped in and wrote a very big check.

It still points almost exactly to Mecca

IT SHOULD.

Isn't there an organization of the Flight 93 families?

Information on who runs this memorial site here.

Get a load of this:

The National Park Service is involved in all aspects of the planning and design of the memorial and will administer the Flight 93 National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System. The National Park Service will be the agency under which the Advisory Commission will operate.

Hello Senator Santorum?

Park Service Contacts:
Contact Us

General Correspondence
By Mail
National Park Service
109 West Main Street, Suite 104
Somerset, PA 15501-2035

By Phone
Superintendent - Flight 93 National Memorial
(814) 443-4557

By Fax
(814)443-2180

Bob's Kid:

looks like it's back to respectful letter writing on this one.

Don't think you get it--respectful letter writing got us nothing. We're way past letter writing at this point.

It's still on private land, right? Let's talk to the owners. This is a slap in the face. There's no two ways about it. This is like raping dead heros.

#33 The Bruce

Hey, be nice to Bob's Kid. Her dad just passed away.

It still points almost exactly to Mecca

IT SHOULD.

It should point at Mecca, but the crescent should be replaced by the shape of either a cruise missile or a pig.

perfect project for Picloram..

Good bye trees and grass...

#30 dak
It still points almost exactly to Mecca

IT SHOULD.

Heh. Good point. But it should be a giant, accusing finger pointing east.

#26 Jimmy The Clam 11/30/2005 08:13PM PST

Hey Claw Man! :)

huh? i'm innocent i say innocent.

Who the hell's idea was this, really? Perhaps the Pajamas media squad could look into who's funding this obscenity. My guess is that somehow, somewhere the Saudis stepped in and wrote a very big check.

if i recall correctly tides foundation was involved

# 36 and 38

Or a Minuteman

#34 Portolan, there is no private property. The government just lets us stay on their land.

Yeah, 4 of those translucent blocks will be vandalized regularly.
This is such an insult to the nation.

#38 Belize042

But it should be a giant, accusing finger pointing east.

Damn straight it should.

I think thats right, get Santorum on this. Possibly also one of the Repub's running for Governor can make this an issue. Just my thoughts

#41 Roger

Kelo legalized that.

The only solution is to completely defund every organization (and remove all authority over the site) involved in approving the first plan and demonize them to the point where the next group fears for their very livelyhood to propose such a travesty again.

#30 dak,

Only if the put a fucking MX-Peacekeeper there. This is beyond absurd. When are the goddamn Republicans going to grow a set of balls?

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

What is their major malfunction? Don't they know that their F-ing trees will die a horrible death if they plant them in the shape of an Islamic crescent?

What kind of memorial would a bunch of dead trees make?

The LLL crazys actually claim theres no proof that the Islamics on board carried out a plot to hi-jack the plane.. and that the CIA destroyed it with a bomb.. to make a reason to attack Iraq. I'm sure thats why there are 44 blocks.. to honor the murdered, a few years of LLL rule and they will have it taught in our colleges that way.

/sick bast***s, we'll have to have martial law I guess, to round up the usual suspects in America to ever win this war.

If the National Park Service actually implements this act of sedition, what do you think will be the response? Will there finally be organized resistance to subversion by the Left and the Islamofascists within the US?

#48 mich-again

Don't they know that their F-ing trees will die a horrible death if they plant them in the shape of an Islamic crescent?

And the tree's offshoots will be deformed from inbreeding.

#47

I think they got rid of the Peacekeeper, but ask Reaganite.

Unfortunately, the Republicans have the balls in the US, not the Dems. But too much balls is not always a good thing. Else you wind up too far right and unelectable.

Look at waht happened to the Dems with their far left BS...

Are they the same shape?

Flip this picture over...

[Link: www.spaceimagingme.com...]

Then compare it with the big pond at the memorial.

[Link: photos1.blogger.com...]

Then tell me if I need new aluminum foil, I can take it.

Nosing around a little, I came upon this article announcing the selection of Paul Murdoch's design. It references Zombie and it states:

The jury report anticipated the possibility for misinterpretation, and had recommended that the design team “Consider the interpretation and impact of words within the context of this event. The 'Crescent' should be referred to as the 'circle' or 'arc' or other words that are not tied to specific religious iconography."

Doesn't that make you feel better? It didn't me either.

Why do we need an artsy monument anyway. These were war dead. 40 of them. All over Europe, and New England in village squares you can see that classic granite pillar.

Pillar
inscribed with 40 names
"Let's Roll"
9/11/2001

You can build that monument for 50k

simple and elegant

#53

That little Borg cube in the middle looks like a good aim point.

Wait a minute, are we being to judgmental here? Nahh.

The property is still in private ownership with negotiations ongoing. Set up a 501c3 to compete on the project.

My nomination for a memorial is a giant beverage cart with a broken arm crushed underneath holding a boxcutter. Engraved: Let's Roll.

#53 freedomplow, get yer tin foil then because the first picture does not resemble:
ERROR
The requested URL could not be retrieved

While trying to retrieve the URL: [Link: localhost:10141...]

The following error was encountered:

* Access Denied.

Access control configuration prevents your request from being allowed at this time. Please contact your service provider if you feel this is incorrect.

Your cache administrator is webmaster.
:-)

respectful?

And outraged, of course.

Why don't we just gove out a Free Koran to the visitors. After all it was America's fault thaey they attacked us.

/LLL

#56

What is wrong with just CROSSES, and if any Jewish in there, Stars of David?

That is accepted way of honoring the dead.

#57 dak

I was thinking, "Target-Rich Environment".

Loved the idea of sculpture of a beverage cart and a cellphone as a memorial.

Put that side by side of the monstrosity of the "official" memorial and this alternative site will get most of the souveniers.

JG

#63

Yes, goes without saying...

The only way they're going to change this is if we start sawing off heads. That's the proven technique for getting what you want.

#39 jimmytheclaw

Ah yes, the Tides Foundation. Nothing more than a lefty money-laundering organization.

Profile here: http://www.activistcash.com

Thanks for posting this, Charles. People were talking about it earlier.

Even if it were not Islamofascist, it would still be new age wind chimy feel-good nonsense instead of a tribute to the bravery of these people in the face of death. The people in charge of art in this country are so feel goody/new age - even if (and that's a big if) the Islamofascist embracement is an accident or some horrible coincidence/synchronicity, getting a tribute to bravery/courage/name your old fashioned value will be hard. But - we must try.

#59 Roger

Works for me. I'll try to figure out what happened.

Hey, be nice to Bob's Kid. Her dad just passed away.

Thanks, Ward.

But I do think respectful will get farther than letters and phone calls spouting obscenities, however well deserved they might be. Messages like that are seldom taken seriously. And they need to be taken very seriously.

Wonders aloud if paint ball will be allowed at the site.

The goal should be to get this Murdock *** off the project. He's obviously dishonest.

#65

I know what you're saying, but remember this is what every latte-slurping commie pinko Dem (not to mention Bin Ladin and Co.) thought the US would react after 9/11.

But Bush went with a smarter approach. He's raising lots more hell for the bad guys and "allies" this way. It'll take time though.

#32, #44

Santorum doesn't have any balls. Last year he supported Arlen Specter over Toomey. He could ave supported another pro-life Republican, but chose the quisling instead.

Rick Santorum will have the fight of his life on his hands next year, with the pro-life Dem Casey running against him.

This is a test of our national resolve. If it stands, we fall.

#56 the drill sgt, exactly!

73 Iron fist,

It is PA, a Liberty bell works for me. ring it on 9/11 40 times

#71 Bob's Kid

But I do think respectful will get farther than letters and phone calls spouting obscenities, however well deserved they might be. Messages like that are seldom taken seriously. And they need to be taken very seriously.

I agree. Somebody big like Rush or Sean Hannity needs to take up this case.

#77 The Bruce

Exactly.

Re: my post at #68

I should mention that one of the biggest collaborators with the Tides foundation is Theresa Heinz Kerry.

Ya know, that drunken wench who's married to the loser from Massachusetts who nearly managed to become President.

I'm surprised that never came out during the campaign. I think people might have been interested to know that the possible First Lady is involved with a money laundering organization that lets LLLefties contribute to borderline radical LLLefty organizations without having their names attached to their donations.

Oh God, Maureen Dowd is going to be on Letterman tonight.

# 25 ferris

You know, the Rev. Fred Phelps has terrorized Topeka for years, and he hasn't hurt or physically attacked anyone. He sues and harasses and just wears people down, makes their lives a living hell.

As much as I despise Phelps, maybe we need to adopt his aggressive (yet, apparently, entirely legal) tactics. We won't kill or physically assault these reporters and actors and "artists" who hate America and are indirectly helping to get our soldiers (and eventually, more American civilians) killed, but we have to do SOMETHING to shut them up, and letter writing is not going to hack it. We have to find perfectly legal ways to make their lives absolutely miserable, to let them have not a moment's peace. And we especially need to find ways to hit their pocketbooks, HARD. They need to be made to pay.

This is not a matter of chilling free speech. It is a matter of saving lives and saving the free world from Islamic fascist domination.

There are still 44 translucent blocks on the flight path to the crash site, matching the total number of dead

This is the most absurd part. To memorialize the hijackers is like redesigning the USS Arizona memorial at Pearl Harbor to include the names of the Japanese aircrews and submariners who perished during the attack.

One of the most effect tools is a handwritten note. That shows more effort and thought went into the note. I be writing the President, Veep and my congressional delegation on this one.

#83 Ward Cleaver

Oh God, Maureen Dowd is going to be on Letterman tonight.

Why? Doesn't she know Dave has a live in girlfriend.

This makes me sick. What is even worse is that the MSM will not even touch this. Most people I know don't even know about this sick, sorry excuse of a memorial. What can I do? I didn't believe it when they said they they were changing it. This really doesn't suprise me at all.

 #83

Ward Cleaver  11/30/2005 08:42PM PST

Oh God, Maureen Dowd is going to be on Letterman tonight.

It's official. Letterman has scraped the bottom of the barrel for guests.

#80 Ward Cleaver 11/30/2005 08:40PM PST

#71 Bob's Kid

But I do think respectful will get farther than letters and phone calls spouting obscenities, however well deserved they might be. Messages like that are seldom taken seriously. And they need to be taken very seriously.

I agree. Somebody big like Rush or Sean Hannity needs to take up this case.

i just put up a link on one of seans threads after emailing links out

#85 gunslingah

The whole damn thing is absurd. The islamic apologists aren't even trying to hide their intentions.

The architectural drawings don't show the 10'x10' designated free speech area that the Park Service provides. I hope the more meaningful memorial isn't forced to take up residence on that tiny plot.

 #83
Ward Cleaver  11/30/2005 08:42PM PST

Oh God, Maureen Dowd is going to be on Letterman tonight.

Will she do some stupid pet trick?

/take it away, boys..

Maureen Dowd is going to be on Letterman tonight.

She was on Fergeson's (after Letterman) last week. She was going on about how she grew up wanting to be like Hepburn in those Pat and Mike movies and have a man she could trade verbal barbs with all the time. Fergeson said "Not me, I'd rather be with someone who likes me."

Here's my idea of a great memorial, but it needs to be over a certain middle eastern city, over a big black rock...

/sorry, this kind of "art" makes me pissed off all over again...

If I didn't know better, I'd be thinking that the National Park Service had been absorbed by the State Department.

This is thoroughly outrageous. Perhaps the National Park Service is thinking of adding a statue of Hitler to the World War II memorial.Why not? It's same mentality. Everyone is a victim, right?

These people are pricks...the design firm and anyone connected with the Government agency which approved of this monstrosity.

83 Ward Cleaver

Liberal Night Tonight on Late Night Shows: Dowd, Dean, Pelosi...

[Link: newsbusters.org...]

Full force of the moonbats tonight.

Architect Paul Murdoch’s infamous red crescent is still there, still planted with red maple trees

Nothing the creative use of a few gallons of gasoline and a book of matches couldn't fix.

#76 WArd Cleaver

Santorum doesn't have any balls. Last year he supported Arlen Specter over Toomey. He could ave supported another pro-life Republican, but chose the quisling instead.

Get a clue. Toomey would have had no seniority with the requisite perks to hand out to Santorum. Specter has tons.

Listen to yourself. Specter is a 'quisling' but got re-elected easily after the rough primary with Toomey. Santorum is a staunch conservative and is in the fight of his life against Casey.

The Specter/Toomey fight was a conversation w/in the Republican party in Pennsylvania.

The Santorum/Casey fight is not Dem vs. Repub. It's 'moderate vs. right-wing', Casey being the moderate.

There are other issues that are not related to policy per se.

Santorum treats his constiuents like lackeys. He is an arrogant, self-righteous, pompous ass.

One-on-one, the man is insufferable. I've wanted to punch him in the face just on general principles.

Specter is also arrogant. But he loves a good argument and in my experience has never taken offence at being told he's out of line.

Not that he listens. Specter is at times hard to take but he can be fun.

Santorum is just a prick with a title.

OT

Europe's woman suicide bomber

Police in Belgium and France launched a series of raids yesterday against a suspected terrorist network after a Belgian-born convert to Islam blew herself up in Baghdad, becoming Europe's first woman suicide bomber.

More than 200 officers arrested 15 suspects in four cities three weeks after the 38-year-old woman, who converted to Islam after marrying a Moroccan Islamist radical, earned her grisly place in history.

According to De Standaard, Belgium's main Flemish newspaper, the woman attempted to target a US military convoy south of Baghdad on November 9. A US official told the paper that she was the only person who died, but other media reports spoke of five or six deaths.

I don't think Murdoch and the other artsy pricks are afraid of the Muslims. I think they feel sorry for them and want to reach out. In their minds, t is very big of the libs to maek such a monument honoring the event and all that died. After all, the terrorist would not have killed our citizens if we didn't ask for it in the first place. The USA is at fault.

They are elitist a-holes. Murdoch still claims his design was misinterpretted. OK, if I ignore my common sense and give him the benefit of the doubt, after the first wave of outrage, you would think he woudl be smart enough to avoid anything that could be interpreted as pro-Islam.

My guess is that there is either serious money from the left / CAIR types, and Murdoch is so arrogant the he does not want to change things much. If he did, it would admit his art should not have won the contest.

#98 Mr. Beamish

Nothing the creative use of a few gallons of gasoline and a book of matches couldn't fix.

Don't waste good maples, just take a chainsaw, I doubt anyone would stop you.

In the best case scenario these designers are oblivious and/or insensative to the fundamental design concepts. These passengers were the first people to realize what we are up against, they died rather than see the larger destruction and death that would have occurred had they stayed in their seats.

Wow! These designers have a lot of nerve.

What can they be thinking!
Possibilities:

1) Americans are really clueless.

2) The MSM will never notice or report this. (Which I can't understand, since these newspapers have been blatantly deceived by these numbskulls.)

3) Bloggers? What are those?

4) People who love America? They don't exist, afterall I've never met one.

5) We are artists! You are pop culture loving fools who could never understand "true genius."

6) We are inspired by the symbols of Islam. What better way to memorialize the four who were thwarted from completing their mission.

Honestly, I don't which choice it is.

It is possible to argue that the entire thing should be all about Islam. The 'artist' probably will change it if we look at it like that.

According to the National Geographic Documentary from this summer, the first passenger murdered to scare the other passengers into submission was the only Jew on board (a businessman sitting in first class)

62# What is wrong with just CROSSES, and if any Jewish in there, Stars of David?

Well one reason is that crosses will offend the muslum hi-jackers. The park service is going to take care of this. Lets see, this should employ about a thousand people. They will probably hire a couple hundred muslums so to have them inclusive in our national tragedy.

Letterman's already had Joe Wilson on before.

#107 Acesover8ts

They will probably hire a couple hundred muslums so to have them inclusive in our national tragedy.

The muslims are the cause of our national tragedy.

Christmas trees in the public square are questionable but forcing Islamic crap in a memorial for those who died by Islamofacists handywork is OK.
@$$#

I like the granite pillar idea.

Another would be a bronze eagle taking off from a rock with a broken scimitar in its talons.

We already have a Museum of Tolerance. Now we'll have Museum of the Intolerable.

Somebody, in a senior official position, ought to inform the designers of this "memorial" and the committee that approved the design that a lot of Americans are rather displeased about their "Memorial" to the hijackers and murderers of 9-11. The last word on this subject has not yet been heard and I would not want to be one of those that it is directed at. As for the Park Service, this is the time of year that they send their clown suits out for dry cleaning so they aren't too easy to spot against the lll background. You can still recognize them however, for they are the cretins running around with both hands covering their ass.

Let them plant the trees. Trees can be cut down and made into useful objects. i.e. pews for churches, pulpits for the pastor, collection plates etc, etc.

#83 Ward Cleaver

Top 10 List of Why I Stopped Watching Letterman A Long Time Ago:

10. Punchlines consist of Letterman saying something obvious loudly 3 times.
9. Paul Schaffer.
8. Lame Inside jokes.
7. Sick of hearing about his kid.
6. Paul Schaffer's Band.
5. No more Larry "Bud" Melman
4. Gratuitous ass-kissing of guests.
3. Letterman still hasn't owned up to the ass hair transplant.
2. Was once hip, now just artificial hip.
1. Waste of time.

#99 grayp

I know, Specter's got plenty of juice, but I can't stand him. I can't stand Santorum, either. I get the impression that he's about as effective as a piece of furniture.

Reading that article back there, it said the final decision will ultimately be made by the Secretary of the Interior. Anyone know who that is? That's who we should write to.

Sorry--the linky to the article is back on post #54

#115 Portolan: could not have expressed it better. I personnally watch or even want to watch Lettermen for at least 10 years, give or take a few.

#89 Amalie

I will not watch him any more...he is pathetic, and perfect for SeeBS; his guests, and he are so LLL now, that the show is Air America, on TV.

Mikey Moore and Janeane Garofalo and their ilk? Fuhgetaboutit.

And another OT re Israel, for the delusional few who think that the Jews expelled from Israel by PM Sharon are living the good life: Airlift For Disengagement Refugees Arrives From America

Over three tons of clothing and goods for Jews expelled from their homes in Gaza and northern Samaria last summer arrived Tuesday on an airlift sent by Americans Jews and gentiles.

...”For 100 days the refugees have been living in hotels and tent cities,” Lieberman said. “They are still there and many have not even arrived at interim solutions, so their possessions are still all locked up in warehouses. All electronic devices have been ruined by the heat and rats have eaten much of their clothing. Aside from that, the government rules that if someone opens their shipping container they must empty it completely and give it back - even though they have no place to put anything.”...

Please read article...it is both yet another disgrace on the part of Sharon's, and a tragedy that I never thought would or could happen to Jews in the Jewish homeland, done to them by a Jew. Some Jew.

I will now go and punch out a wall.

Gale Norton?
Woo-hoo!

#111 Minstrel
Your post made me think a Phoenix rising from the ashes and laying waste to it's enemies would be good also but don't know how that could be portrayed.

I think that this goes deeper than just the architect. Regarding the architect though, if you read the whole article that is linked here, he really did his homework on this, or had a lot of help from those whose sympathies lie with the terrorists.

#90 jimmytheclaw

Yeah, I sent Sean an email, and included the Error Theory" link.

She looks like she has a fun job, petting baby birds and such.

I am an Architect. I'm qualified to say this:

This design stinks. Memorializing 4 murderers equally with the murdered? It's treasonous design.

Todd Beamer howls from the dead in protest.

Throw it all out and hire someone else with common sense.

#122, metal man. Thats an easy one. An Eagle shitting on the Kaba.

Trees can be cut down. Let them plant them!

#124 Rayra

Yeah, the local news here (DFW) was talking about the Crackberry story. I thought they were going to be shut off (patent suit) a couple of years ago; it could really happen now.

#126 The Rebbitzen

She looks like she has a fun job, petting baby birds and such.

She oversees one of the next giant extinctions of humanity: Yellowstone National Park / monsterous caldera. Toba is the Muslim version. They've had some bad luck over there recently.

#15 Rob Thompson

I just stepped in, but, that is the point. There seems to be no peaceful muslims to denounce anything...

NY Nana

Please read article...it is both yet another disgrace on the part of Sharon's, and a tragedy that I never thought would or could happen to Jews in the Jewish homeland, done to them by a Jew. Some Jew.

I will now go and punch out a wall.

how about this---

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

In my previous post (#85), I compared this proposed Flight 93 memorial to including the names of Japanese sailors and airmen killed during the Pearl Harbor attack on the USS Airzona memorial.

I apologize; that was unfair (to the Japanese). While the Japanese were carrying out a surprise attack (dirty pool), they were, at least, attacking a legitimate military target.

No, including the hijackers on the Flight 93 memorial is more akin to modifying the memorials at Auschwitz, Dachau, etc., to include the names of the Nazi SS guards killed as Allied troops were liberating the places.

Beyond belief.

Here's the gov page for the Secretary of the Interior, Gale A. Norton. I believe this is the person to voice our disgust of this crescent *spit* of embrace.

I propose a giant steamroller for starters.

#130 Rayra

No freakin' coincidence there. I'm just glad that Stewart got stuck with the hag Pelosi.

#130 Rayra

Kind of like the timing of something like 'Commander in Chief'?

#121 Beagle,

You beat me to it. :)

On today's previous Flight 93 Memorial thread
#122 Zombie linked the NPS Flight 93 Memorial page -- which shows the revamped design.
To me, it no longer looks like a crescent -- it looks like a circle with a path leading up to it.
I am still not fond of the design but I do feel that the crescent shaped memorial has been eradicated.

A full press assault on the American public.

#124 Rayra
Thats the second time I've seen "fact check" today. Check out the URL from yahoo for this sick f*cking AP article, Bush Attempts Hard Sell on Iraq Progress .
Notice the 'iraq_fact_check' in the URL.

#124 Rayra

The venom is so out in the open they're driving away independents and moderates. Let them steam to boiling over.

Bad news for their views on abortion: "viability" is moving down in weeks, and sonograms.

Just an observation, not making an argument.

#127 Ojoe

Agreed. I believe that the architect is just doing what he's being paid to do, though. If there was money to be made in a decent monument, that's what we'd get. This is the crap that we're getting because this is what the money behind the project (read: Heinz foundation) wants.

OT

Belgian woman verified as a homicide bomber in Iraq.

first time that a European has been confirmed as a suicide bomber

She "married a radical Islamic man and converted to Islam after her marriage..."

Perhaps the best thing that can be said about this is at least she's dead and won't be breeding more such POS.

Here is a good article from September by Michelle Malkin that says what I think.

I am not an architect, but here is my 9/11 architectural philosophy: War memorials should memorialize war. If you want peace and understanding and healing and good will toward all, go build Kabbalah centers.

Please, for the sake of those who have sacrificed, let's put the design of war memorials in the hands of creative people committed to erecting monuments of courage over capitulation.
...
A proper war memorial stirs to anger and action. We all remember passenger Todd Beamer's last heard words as he and his fellow Americans prepared to take back the plane from al Qaeda's killers, don't we?

No, the phrase wasn't "Let's meditate." It was "Let's roll."

This is just so unbelievable.
How did all this ever happen, that we have gotten to this? We seem to have to fight on so many fronts, with new ones every day, it jsut gets tiring at times!

I's just totally unacceptable to have anything remotely related to Islam as part of the memorial.

What is an effective way to oppose this? Who controls the project, and where can letters be written?

#54 carefulnow
Nosing around a little, I came upon this article announcing the selection of Paul Murdoch's design. It references Zombie

Wow, Architectural Record really does read me:

Shortly after the winning design was announced, the use of the red crescent in the design drew criticism from some religious groups and online blogs. As noted on the conservative blog Zombietime. “The winning design chosen to memorialize the heroes and victims of 9/11’s Flight 93 is in the shape of a red crescent that looks–either accidentally or intentionally–remarkably like an Islamic crescent.”

I maybe should pay more attention to media coverage of zombietime -- I long ago gave up keeping track of it.

instead of just the forty translucent blocks that are dedicated to the forty murdered Americans.

Well actually there were 38 murdered Americans and two foreigners. Christian Adams, deputy director of the German Wine Institute, was flying to San Francisco for a wine-tasting event. Toshiya Kuge, an engineering student at Waseda University in Tokyo, was returning home after visiting colleges in the U.S. and Canada.

#132, beagle. Hush yo mouth boy, I live too close to that place to treat it frivolously. I don't fancy the idea of going into orbit with a couple of bears and no rocket ship.

Let's remember that Todd Beamer doesn't even have, I think, the luxury of a grave. This field is where he died. Let's have some respect here.

#143 lowandslow

Another example of open bias I posted earlier. People aren't as stupid as they think we are. But no amount of polling on the media's reputation will change their minds. They are somewhere between sex offenders and lawyers.

#149 Zombie
My #141 just mentioned your earlier post link.

I am an Architect. I'm qualified to say this:

I'm not an architect, but I did major in anthropology, and Kroeber Hall at Cal is spittin' distance from the architecture building, which must give some sort of design creds.

And I say it stinks, too. Worse than a litterbox that is waaay overdue for a change.

#151 gymnast

I don't fancy the idea of going into orbit with a couple of bears and no rocket ship.

If you hear USGS say "harmonic tremors" get in your car and pretend you are a NASCAR driver.

OT - I remember some neighborhood "youts"
having more fun than a barrel of monkeys with
primer cord and red maple trees. I don't know
what caused this memory to come flooding back
all these years later...hmmm. I wonder if "boys"
will still be boys in good ol' PA ? There's something
so "American" about 'sploding inanimate objects
on a lazy summer afternoon ! The key words being
inanimate objects ! Of course theres also the sound
of breaking glass that some boys just can't seem to resist ...

"Ain't that America, the home of the free..."

/JC Mellancamp

#141 wee fury

The points of the cresent have just been camoflaged. It's still a sextant to mecca. There are still blocks for the four terrorists. Like I said in an earlier post, a small victory is not a victory at all when it comes to this.

#153 Beagle

They are somewhere between sex offenders and lawyers.

I'd say closer to sex offenders.

They (journalists) should have to register when they move into a neighborhood.

Maureen Dowd has flabby arms. She better find a husband soon, before she completely falls apart.

#128 gymnast
Thats good but would this work in place of the Eagle? Risen Phoenix

#149 zombie

Yay zombie. You official. You rock.

#146 ibu guru:

In the past 25 years, about 10 percent of suicide attacks have been carried out by women, newspaper 'Le Soir' reported.

The attacks were exclusively carried out by women from the Middle East or South-East Asia, but now western women are starting to carry out suicide bombings.

If true, this definitely defeats the argument we sometimes see (from people such as Ann Coulter, etc.) that airport security and such should focus solely on profiling "Middle Eastern males". Yes?

OT - Dowd - wouldn't ... her with Nodrogs
member...

I understand everyone's feelings running hot, but think about having this abomination in place. What better encapsulates the Left's treachery than a monument to the 9/11 hijackers which is supposedly too tricky for people to figure out? You have it all in one package: the treachery, and the haughty, paternal attitude.

155 Bob's Kid

And I say it stinks, too. Worse than a litterbox that is waaay overdue for a change.

BTW - how are the kitties? Still have all of them?

#156, beagle. I was thinking more along the lines of formula 1 in that situation. I just hope that I am not sailing on Yellowstone lake when it starts to boil.

#133 Robert D.

I just think that defining a context under which Muslims can deny terrorism, rather than leaving the religious arguments wholly the territory of the terrorists, could only be to the west's advantage, and complaints from muslims on religious grounds might well be a key factor in keeping this memorial from being built.

But it's just my two cents.

How is it possible in the US for a poodle shagging, gimp mask waering, chicken fellator like this to get such an important commision?
Im in Oz and would like to think that the US hasnt lost its marbles completely.
It would be like the germans making a Holocaust memorial in the shape of a swastika for gods sake.

#54 careful now

A 15-member jury made up of design professionals, community leaders, and family members selected the design, which will be located in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, where the flight crashed in an open field. The design will be submitted to the Secretary of the Interior for final approval.

I find it hard to believe "family members" would go along with this travesty.

Question: this article appeared in September. Has the Secretary of the Interior approved it?

The most viable step now seems to be pressuring every Senator & Rep to pitch congressional fits with the Secretary of the Interior.

#116 Ward Cleaver

know, Specter's got plenty of juice, but I can't stand him. I can't stand Santorum, either. I get the impression that he's about as effective as a piece of furniture.

Well, I've worked with both of them. I understand perfectly the 'I can't stand him" re: Specter - but as far as I can tell he tries really hard to do the right thing. Politicly. He threw our clients over in order to get the Judiciary position so he could influence the SCOTUS nominee hearings. I think he saved the Clarence Thomas nomination. He has consistently had the best staff in the Senate. Recently only Hillary's staff can compare. So, I can understand your sentiments. But he's no angel. Ever wonder why he cited Scottish law to explain why he was voting against Clinton's impeachment?

I have no illusions.

What most people don't know is that his long-time chief-of-staff, Carrie, died of breast cancer during that primary. And he got diagnosed with cancer. She was his anchor and the staff loved her. He hired a replacement and the staff hated the SOB. He was let go about a week ago and no, I won't tell you why. Suffice to say, it was personal ethics.

The big difference between Specter and Santorum that people who are not in the business don't 'get';

Specter never really wanted to be president. Santorum wants it. Bad.

Pennsylvania politics can be none to subtle.

In the meanwhile, the field could have a bunch of porta-potties oriented toward mecca.

Dowd..."you only have to remember two words
"Cheney's Guilty" (the Phlame case).

#164 gunslingah

Try 34%.

They definately are going to need to start checking women, especially ones who look pregnant.

#150 aunursa

Maybe that should be 40 innocent civilians. But I am sure you get the point, don't you?

174 Rayra

Agreed. What I'm saying is that they were selected precisely because they are carrying water for the Heinz foundation and other moonbats and islamicists. If there wasn't a stacking of the deck going on, a different and decent archetect would have been selected.

BTW - how are the kitties? Still have all of them?

No, only one. My sis took 2 and a student took the 4th one. They're all fat and sassy, though.

I think Mr Murdoch needs to be put out of business.

#165 leftover54

Yeah, me neither. She's turning into Helen Thomas.

#166 Beagle

And have this abomination exist just so we can point and say "Oh yeah, that's the left for you."? Sorry, no.

Can you say congressional investigation?

Trouble sleeping, and before I read every comment, the 44 stones, honoring also the 4 dead hijackers, is, beyond any possible doubt about the crescent, the true proof of the worship of the bloody savages who brought about 9-11.

#135 gunslingah . . .

No, including the hijackers on the Flight 93 memorial is more akin to modifying the memorials at Auschwitz, Dachau, etc., to include the names of the Nazi SS guards killed as Allied troops were liberating the places.

What you said.

We are in the midst of a culture war between those who love America and the freedom fighters who make it possible-- and those who hate America because they know deep in their hearts that they don't deserve America's blessings.

The pro-Americans must win this fight. We must NOT allow this Islamofascist memorial to degrade our National Parks.

Or, to put it another way--HEADs must ROLL if this abomination is built. (Written in the spirit of the Islamics who want to kill our way of life.

#169 Rob T

Only if the western world would wake up.

The only profiling which will work is religious profiling. The kid-glove treatment the media has given Islam will increase the number of weak-willed, cowardly converts (the only kind?). After conversion, they become entitled to special treatment and above us mere dhimmis. Then they get the Eye of the Tiger new converts get and go all splodey.

Osama has been putting reaching out to whitey for years now. Two CA moonbats already, it's working. Throw in the black Muslims and racial profiling isn't going to cut it.

#176 Earth2moonbat:

I specifically recall a case from the mid-1980's, when a very pregnant Irish woman attempted to board an El Al jetliner, I think at Heathrow Airport. During security screening, it was discovered that she was carrying a powerful bomb, timed to detonate while the flight was in mid-air. During questioning, it emerged that her boyfriend (and father of her unborn child) was, of all things, a Palestinian, and that he had asked her to carry a package on the flight with her. And, of course, being in love with her boyfriend, and never dreaming of distrusting him, she complied.

Sick.

I've always thought that this incident, in and of itself, discredited the idea that we can achieve airline security merely through profiling males who appear to look "Arab". Nonetheless, you still see the idea crop up with some regularity.

BWHAHAHAHA!

The Muslim Brotherhood just became "activists" - (AP)

By MAAMOUN YOUSSEF, Associated Press Writer

That's all I read from the AP any more. Author = bias. My favorite is the Shia symp Ali Akbar. You can't make stuff like that up.

#172 grayp

Thanks grayp, for your insight. I can't see Santorum as pres. I think he's over his head in the Senate. Am I wrong in thinking that?

As a pro-lifer, I can't stand the way other pro-lifers have canonized him. I think you could write "pro-life" on a block of wood and do better than him.

Snarky Dowd "Men are necessary for heavy lifting and breeding" !

Can you imagine a man (even Clinton) going on Letterman and saying women are only good for two things...giving birth and ...take a wild freaking guess. She won a Pulitzer ?

May her batteries go dead and her power be cut off just as she is about to... oh, and the batteries begin to leak.Excuse me. I despise this sorry excuse for a woman ! And I suspect I'm not alone here.

If this memorial to Osama Bin Laden is built, then this country deserves to fall, for it is in fact to moraly weak to stand up for the freedom so many other Americans fought and died for.

#184 portolan

And have this abomination exist just so we can point and say "Oh yeah, that's the left for you."? Sorry, no.

If it comes to that, yes. It will be an enduring (maybe) monument to their treason. What could be better? Yes, a real monument to the passengers who fought back. But that isn't in the cards right now.

#166 Beagle

I don't want to see Todd Beamer's final resting place shit upon in this way.

How could we get in touch with Lisa Beamer? What does she think about this?

She was conspicuously missing from the documentary/re-creation of the Flight 93 takeover.

#197 Ward Cleaver

I don't want to see Todd Beamer's final resting place shit upon in this way.

Neither do I. If life hands you a pile of crap, compost it.

#179 Rayra:

Don't be stupid. Because 10% AREN'T "Middle Eastern males"?

No, not because 10% aren't "Middle Eastern males"; because the terrorists aren't quite as stupid as we might like them to be. If they know that we focus 100% of our security efforts on "Middle Eastern males", well, they'll make every possible effort to use operatives who don't fit our profile. As, I think, the links provided by ibu guru and Earth2moonbat make quite clear.

Richard Reid is of Jamaican-English descent.
Jose Padilla is Latin-American.
Johnny Walker Lindh is puro gringo.

You really want to debate counter-terrorism security policy with me?

#194 leftover54

You're not alone. And her BS about WMDs and Judith Miller? Puh-leeze.

Sorry if someone's already mentioned it (I don't have the time to check all the comments right now—sorry!), but I went to the Flight 93 Memorial site, and I couldn't find anything about the 44 translucent blocks (which I find particularly abominable). The "Tower of Voices," though, has 40 chimes (33 passengers and seven crew members). Anyone able to find anything about the 44 blocks?

If this abomination ever gets built, G-d forbid, I thought of a simple way to destroy it--

All visitors who believe this vomitorious "memorial" celebrates Islamofascism and denigrates the heroism of the Americans who fought back and saved our Capitol or White House should bring herbicide to to the site to destroy the red and sugar maple trees planted celebrating Islam and the terrorists who died.

There is NO WAY that the Park Service could police this satanic site adequately. The Park Service has barely enough personelle to police simple sites like the Petrified Forest or the Indiana National Lakeshore.

Just a thought for those of you who are inclined to express themselves in a non-violent, yet direct action mode of expression.

BTW, many FORMER LLLs have studied under the tutelage of Saul Alinsky--the theorist of Direct Action. You know who you are.

'Night all.

#196 Beagle

With all due respect, that's not the answer. If this travesty comes to fruitation it will only serve to embolden the fascist sympathizers. Give them an inch and they'll want the whole damn planet. A memorial to the courage of those ordinary citizens should have been in the cards since September 12, 2001. It should still be in the cards right now.

OT.

Another victory for the Bloggers:
Fox Holiday Ornaments.

See the UPDATE in the post.

Converting hallowed American ground into a dhimmi abomination is akin to the muzz shrines on top of the Temple Mount and Hindu sacred places at Ayodhya. All such abominations should be replaced with structures appropriate to the history and cultural integrity of the locations.
Flight 93 should no more be memorialized with a "crescent of embrace" than Auschwitz with a "swastika of embrace." The cluelessness of the proposal is breathtaking.

#164 gunslingah

Indeed. The salient characteristic is islamic. I won't say "radical" -- "devout" is more accurate.

#206 jonny

What? No Laurie Dhue ornaments? Damn.

#170 the frolicingmole . . .

How is it possible in the US for a poodle shagging, gimp mask waering, chicken fellator like this to get such an important commision?
Im in Oz and would like to think that the US hasnt lost its marbles completely.
It would be like the germans making a Holocaust memorial in the shape of a swastika for gods sake.

This sums up the issue very nicely.

#205 portolan

With all due respect, that's not the answer.

With all due respect back, talking about wrecking it isn't the answer either. I'm sure some of the victims' families aren't up to speed on the not-so subtle message of the Crescent of Embrace, though the title pretty much says it all to anyone with a passing familiarity with Islam.

And how does this honor the dead, those 40 people, none of whom were Muslim? Care to give that one a try, Mr. Murdoch? How is this even American? How does Islam, the very religion of those fervent Muslim terrorists who chose to commit mass murder against non-Muslims that fateful day, fit into and express our values, our beliefs, our national outlook, even our character? I'd really like to see you attempt to answer that. If you had any integrity, any sincere desire to address these real concerns, you would try. So far, I see no explanation, no serious accounting forthcoming. Instead, the only replies that have been released have come with the kind of muted disdain that belies the very artfulness of your intended, though unacknowledged, symbolism.

What you propose is a contradiction in terms, and an insult to every American, and every passenger on that flight. Rather than offer any recognizable symbol of peace, you instead choose to challenge us, not in the way that good art does, through inspiring design and exquisiteness of form, but through the sheer, blunt force of a labored symbolism, the kind of heavyhandedness that neither asks nor implores us to open our hearts and challenge our minds. No, only the subtlety and power of truth imbued by humanity can do that. Instead, we are first asked to consider, in our grief for the fallen and the sadness it impels to somehow look beyond, to reconsider whatever thoughts and feelings we might hold, so that we may only come to "embrace" the very symbol whose religion and believers could never accept us, those of us whose only crime is that we think and believe differently.

Here is the message that I hope is not lost. As Americans, we could never accept, nor tolerate any view or belief that would divide or separate us, and by so doing, would lower one group only to elevate another. The very idea of the infidel, so central to Islam, of a people who deserve to be scorned simply for what they represent rather than who they are, is hateful and repugnant to us. In its essence, it is a spiritual backwardness, and a way of thinking that has shown, through the clear resolution of our history, that it is a path of barrenness that can only lead to our mutual destruction.

I watched Pelosi on Stewart, Vanden Heuvel on Colbert, Dean on Leno and Dowd on Letterman... (because that's what I do.)

They all bombed.

The full-court press has come down to the extreme left.

They went on comedy shows to explain the WoT.

#211 Beagle

I wasn't talking about destroying it on the ground. I was talking about stopping before it starts and starting with a new, more appropriate design. My sympathies lay with the victim's families, but if they were made aware of the obvious intent of this so called memorial, I believe that they would be more outraged than us. Beagle, there are so many points of this that point to a islamofascist bias.

The National Park Service *tried* to run the Presidio in San Francisco when it was converted from an Army base to a business venture in 1994. They were so freaking incompetent, the Feds finally turned the interior (money-making component) over to a Trust. I don't think it's any big secret that Park Rangers are completely removed from reality and should not be given any real responsibility. The fact the design is a disgrace on all counts probably never occured to them. They just thought the trees were pretty.

I stand by my comment of #141
I no longer see a crescent in the redesign.
I see a circle/bowl.
Do not see any mention of the 44 blocks.
See only mention of 40 groves of trees -- each grove with 40 intermixed Red and Sugar Maple. The trees are green spring and summer -- only red in the autumn.
I see no crescent -- no matter how hard I look. And, there would be no crescent visible from the air IMO.

OK, let's get down to brass tacks. I've taken screenshots of the new design from the pdf of the newsletter, and uploaded them to my site. I'm also linking here the memorial design images taken from my original report. Let's look at them now:

New design: View from oblique angle

New design: Overhead view

Original design overhead view

Original design overlayed with a prototypical Islamic crescent

My two cents on this is that the changes were minimal, and the memorial is still not too good, but it was altered just enough to make it unlike an actual Islamic crescent. If you look at my gif of the original design you can see that the resemblance is unmistakable. But the new design, while still similar, is different to a degree that makes it not immediately identifiable as an Islamic crescent.

Yes, I know that part of the difference is that they fiddled with the foliage coloring to disguise part of the shape, but first impressions tell me that "Islamic" is not the word that would come to mind upon seeing the new design for the first time.

Of course, all the other criticisms of the design remain valid. It's just that the one single most offensive element has, in my estimation, been substantially mollified.

#212 Rayra

Arab males aged 18-40 are a valid target for screening -- but that's an incomplete profile. The profile should be expanded.

And I've said for a long time here (and elsewhere) that strict enforcement of our immigration laws would reduce our islamofascist problem by about half. That would be a rather decent start. It would also be a rather decent start on clearing out assorted criminals as well as terrorists and their sympathizers, supporters, aiders-&-abetters. We need a thorough housecleaning, not just targeted airport screening.

#215 Portolan

I was talking about stopping before it starts and starting with a new, more appropriate design.

That's where we agree. But the 'artist' is convinced a traditional memoral to heros along the lines of the Iwo Jima Memorial just isn't post-modern or deconstructionist enough. So we get the Dog / Pig Park of Embrace instead.

Flight 93 Memorial Still an Islamofascist Shrine

...There are still 44 translucent blocks on the flight path to the crash site, matching the total number of dead, instead of just the forty translucent blocks that are dedicated to the forty murdered Americans.

Very slight exagguration there.

If this shrine had been designed by real Islamists, there would be only 4 shrine in it that's for sure.

But yes of course this is an outrage. Those fucking assholes should not have included the attackers!

Imagine how the families who lost their loved ones will be offended by the shrine to their murderers!

Hey, zombie, have you seen anything on the memorial site about the 44 translucent blocks? I haven't, and I'm hoping that means that that idea is scrapped too.

Damn vowels. Hate them. "Heroes"

If it sounds right in my head, I type it. Then I read it and realize I've had chronic vowel trouble again.

#218 zombie

Hold on, it looks identical to me!

The only thing they changed was the words they use to describe it as far as I can tell.

Somebody big like Rush or Sean Hannity needs to take up this case.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Especially Hannity. The first sniff of a lead and he's off to Aruba.

#218 Zombie
Thanks for posting those links.
As I said in my post #217 -- I no longer see a crescent. That is what angered me before and caused me to write the NPR, Murdoch and my congressmen.
I see no crescent now.

#124 Rayra

Speaking of the devil CNN: 'French CNN' given go ahead Somehow Fwance and CNN? They deserve eachother.

Great letter, BTW.

#134 nagasaki_hata

In a word? Oy!

I must repectfully totally disagree with Rebbe Wolpe.

I have always, and will continue to pray for Israel.

G'nite, all. We were on LI, taking care of our 5 1/2 year old granddaughter after she came home from kindergarten..the score?

Granddaughter=10

2 grandparents=0.

New version of the IF Rule: when you are too tired to post? Go to sleep, already!

ZZZzzz.

Happy December!

#224 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar

No, they added a crucial extra line of trees to fill in much of the formerly empty gap between the tips of the crescent. Now there is just a small opening, whereas before it was about 40% of the arc.

#220 Beagle

The 'artist' is a fool,Beagle, and should be replaced. Then again dogs and pigs are haaram. I like dogs, and pigs (and cows) are the modern day buffalo; we pretty much use every part of them someway or the other. But anyway, this travesty should never come to be, post-modern or euro-cynical or not.

#226 wee fury

I'm not responsible for what you see or don't see, but the cresent of trees is still there in the design - so objectively there is still a red cresent. The only thing that's changed is what words they're using to describe that cresent.

#228 zombie

I see, the gap is half the size it used to be.

Excuse me, it's still a cresent. They didn't change bugger all.

#226 wee fury

It doesn't matter what they now call it or how many new trees they plant to obscure the points of the cresent. It still orientates almost exactly to mecca.

#230 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar
The original memorial design was a crescent. The new design is not a crescent.
I care about what I can see.
I no longer see a crescent in the redesign.

#59

try:

[Link: photos1.blogger.com...]

Who has the last word on design approval?

#233 wee fury

My definition of a cresent is a circle with a hole cut out of it, what's yours?

#232 Portolan

orientates almost exactly to mecca.

Almost exactly my house points to Mecca. Almost exactly the Korean Memorial points to Korea. Almost exactly the Lincoln Monument faces Gettysburg.

#237 wee fury

Do you have a point there, dude?

If that was sacasm it failed.

Zombie... They changed it a little to appease their critics... Don't fall for that.

#237 wee fury

If you don't think "Crescent of Embrace" is a monument to the terrorists, it's hard to help you any further along. The "embrace" is one might expect from a giant squid.

Anyway what's their excuse for memorializing the four criminals responsible?

I'm sure there's some "they were victims too" line in there somewhere!

Fuck them!

#226 wee fury

I see no crescent now.

Did you read the linked post? It's worse than just the overall shape.

#237 wee fury

True, but did your house's original design start out as a big, red, obvious cresent to memorialize citizens who died fighting islamist aggresion? Is the Korean War Memorial in the shape of a big red star? Wee fury, all that they did is plant a few new trees. The whole design needs to be scapped and started over again.

#238 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar
Yes. I have two points now. I'm really not trying to be nasty -- my #237 to Portolan was attempting to show that something can be read into anything.

My other point was that my anger at the first design for the memorial was the crescent shape. I have looked at looked at the redesign -- see Zombie's first two links at #218 -- and can see no crescent shape.

This is not a design I would have chosen had I been a person in charge. But, since I no longer see a Crescent shaped memorial I cannot hate it for the reason I did before.

I understand that there is a contingent of peter pan's who think that the answer to 9/11 is to give the Muslim world a big hug, especial the terrorits. If only the terrorist knew that we loved them, they would have played nice...

A memorial to the victims is not the place to hug those four terrorists.

If we're going to have big expensive memorial to Howard Dean's forign policy, then we should have a memorial to the Bush's foriegn policy too.

How about "the can of whoop-ass" memorial.

G

Do you see it?

#235 Fay
Who has the last word on design approval?

A lot of this has been covered in previous threads -- I guess due to the continuing outrage it should be reposted.

The FINAL decision-maker is Gale Norton, Secretery of the Interior. I have her email address and lots of other crucial contact info for key players in this comprhensive comment on an earlier Flight 93 thread.

Running the risk of being redundant, I have to ask again: Has anyone noticed anywhere on the Flight 93 Memorial site any mention of the 44 translucent blocks? I don't see any.

#249 Rayra

Excuse me, I'm not a fucking twit. I said almost because I wasn't dead sure.

#242 Rayra

Good going, Rayra -- but don't forget to send it to Gale Norton and all the other folks I have emails for in the comment I linked to in #250 above.

Check out this classic MSM spin creating a 'factual debate' where none exists. AP, natch.

SOMERSET, Pa. - A Somerset County preacher vowed to fight the design of the Flight 93 National Memorial, insisting that the crescent pathway used in the design is a symbol of Islam.

Typical Muslim spin, "We're the real victims."

Fouad El Bayly, leader of the Islamic Center of Johnstown, said the crescent isn't a holy symbol, but one identified with the lunar Muslim calendar.

"When it comes to a memorial, all mankind sympathizes," he said. "They recognize it was against everybody."

Sorry, bud, I know you're not that stupid, so you must be that evil.

"Islam Crescent" first result
As if it being on all their flags isn't a bit of a clue.

The crescent moon and star is an internationally-recognized symbol of the faith of Islam. The symbol is featured on the flags of several Muslim countries, and is even part of the official emblem for the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. The Christians have the cross, the Jews have the star of David, and the Muslims have the crescent moon, right?

There's a link to the flags if you look at the article.

AP has become the modern Goebbels for Islamic jihad.

You know, after reading all this shit about the design of the memorial, what the hell is wrong with an American flag covering the whole area?

#256 Rayra

So do I.

#249 Rayra

twit

I don't appreciate being called names just because I stated my opinion backed up with photo's of the redesign.
I made it perfectly clear that my concern with the first design was the crescent shape. Since I no longer see that crescent shape I do not view the redesign as a memorial to the terrorists who brought the plane down. I don't call anybody names because I don't agree with them.

Of course, like much of Islam, it's just a rehash of pagan religious practices. Love the "PBUH" in the article, *spit*.

The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years. Information on the origins of the symbol are difficult to ascertain, but most sources agree that these ancient celestial symbols were in use by the peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in their worship of sun, moon, and sky gods. There are also reports that the crescent moon and star were used to represent the Carthaginian goddess Tanit or the Greek goddess Diana.

The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Islamic armies and caravans flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders continued to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or symbolism on it.

This is freakin' About.com not Ummah.org.

Oh, but as usual, Muslims 'disagree' without providing any evidence of same.

Based on this history, many Muslims reject using the crescent moon as a symbol of Islam. The faith of Islam has historically had no symbol, and many refuse to accept what is essentially an ancient pagan icon. It is certainly not in uniform use among Muslims.

Yeah, and terrorism has nothing to do with Islam even though "striking terror in the hearts of the unbelievers" is repeated over and over in the Koran.

Rayra and zombie, thanks for answering. I'm not American, do you suppose a letter from a non citizen, non resident, would carry any weight?

#258 wee fury

Is it because you don't want to see the cresent? Is it because the 'all clear' was at first sounded and now all is ok and you can go about your business? Scrap the whole damn thing. Erect a real memorial to the Americans who, as they boarded that plane, not expecting a life or death fight, found one and stopped the enemy anyway.

#261 Rayra

We're rolling, now.

#236 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar
My definition of a cresent is a circle with a hole cut out of it, what's yours?

Actually, that may be one of the sources of the miscommunication. A "circle with a hole cut out of it" is NOT a crescent. A crescent is more properly the remainder of the intersection of two overlapping circles. In other words, a true crescent is thickest in the middle of the curve and then slowly diminuates to points at the tips of the curve. E.g. it looks like this.

A "circle with a hole cut out of it" is just that -- a partial circle. Not a crescent.

Dictionary.com definition of crescent:

The figure of the moon as it appears in its first or last quarter, with concave and convex edges terminating in points.

or

Something having concave and convex edges terminating in points.

via

Carolyn 11/30/2005 08:39AM PST

[Link: www.nasites.com...]

Christian physician forced out of job by Muslim colleagues

#258 wee fury

I made it perfectly clear that my concern with the first design was the crescent shape. Since I no longer see that crescent shape I do not view the redesign as a memorial to the terrorists who brought the plane down.

Don't let any facts get in the way of a good rationalization. Does the word "camouflage" ring any bells?

Rayra #242,

Just one suggestion: remove terms such as 'cretins'. Even though they deserve to be called far worse, insulting them does nothing to strengthen the presentation of your case. The reverse in fact.

#260 Rayra

Good catch. That's actually the worst propaganda technique in the article (among many). *tipping invisible hat* I pride myself on picking out propaganda techniques.

#261 Rayra
We're done.
#263 Portolan
So many of my friends could have been on those flights, including me.
So, no I don't take the design of the memorial lightly.

I repeat, what's wrong with an American flag? Oh well, that's just too, well... just... wrong?

#242 Rayra

I applaud your initiative. That letter is outstanding. It's easy to nitpick the phrasing of someone's letter when you're on the sidelines, but you got off your butt and did the right thing and did it well. Outstanding. Thank you.

#271 IF, thanks.

Great letter, Rayra. Righteous anger is the best kind. This is the United States of America, right? Nobody switched it to the Islamic Republic of America when I wasn't looking?

#273 wee fury

It could have been me. It could have been anybody or everybody I know. It could have been anyone posting here tonight. What's the problem? Scrap it. It's that simple. This design is not appropriate. It panders to the fascists.

#262 Fay

I'm not American, do you suppose a letter from a non citizen, non resident, would carry any weight?

I don't think anything should stop you from writing. It doesn't matter what your nationality is, as long as you're fighting for the right values. This American heartily welcomes your contribution!

It was designed to look like a red crescent for a reason.

It still looks like a crescent for a reason.

This is where your common sense should kick in if you have any.

#279 Lazarus

I don't think anything should stop you from writing. It doesn't matter what your nationality is, as long as you're fighting for the right values. This American heartily welcomes your contribution!

Okay, great, I'll write. Thanks.

There are still 44 translucent blocks...

I'm guessing that the extra 4 blocks will "have a way" of disappearing somehow.

#281 Fay

You bet. And good for you!

Israel's Red Cross equivalent, the superb Magen David Adom, has been applying for decades to join the Red Cross, but has been blocked, apparently because the Geneva conventions only recognise the Red Cross and Red Crescent and because Arab nations wont tolerate an organization with the emblem of a Red Star.

So now Israel seems to have agreed to use the neutral symbol of a 'red crystal' in Magen David Adom's operations abroad.

I don't know if other LGFers are onto this story and I don't know enough about the background to it, but my gut reaction is that it's a shameful 'compromise'.

Of course, it's no compromise at all, but it's bowing to the blind hatred of Israel's enemies.

#280 freedomplow

Exactly. At some point, common sense has to kick in. Heroes died in that field. Average people who had the courage to stand up and face and thwart evil. We can't allow this to become a symbol of islamist fascistism. That's what these average folks died trying to stop.

To clarify my position on the new design of the memorial, in case it's gotten lost in the squabbles: