Jesus Hamas Christ?

Don't tell Jesus that, He'd be pretty pissed, i suspect.

Looks like they still haven't figured out Mohammed is a scam...and a pervert.

Wow, that's just amazing that Jesus was a prophet for a religion that didn't exist until 600 years after his death.

Dumbsh*ts...

Notice how all of the protesters are women.

Issah Akhbar!

#4 me

PIMF

"religion" should be "death cult"

looks like Turkey will be a welcome member of Eurabia...

And Mohammed is not prophet of Islam, but antichrist of Christianity.

See? This is fun.

Given all that red they are wearing, too bad they weren't protesting on the streets of Pamplona, Spain during teh festival of San Fermin.

maybe next year

...Jesus not the Son of God?...boy, is this cancerous cult in for a rude awakening...

Mohammed is not prophet

He is epileptic pedophile

Is there any real profit in islam?

/yes, they are murdering bastards. Maybe not the one guy who got tossed out of his mosque.

Jesus is not the Son of God. He is a Prophet of Islam.

What if I am extremely offended by that phrase? What if that humiliates me? What if you have blasphemed the religion of over 1 billion people by saying this? Would this give me the right to burn down the Turkish Embassy?

I think they have prophet envy.

Pope should go anyway. There are still some Christians left, even if the priests aren't allowed to wear their collars in public.

#5 Chip Designer

Notice how all of the protesters are women.

I'm not so sure...

"Jesus not son of God. He is a Prophet of Islam."

And if you don't believe us we'll cut off your head!

I'm perplexed. Is there an Islamist or LLL who can explain to me why it's okay for Muslims to denigrate the founder of Christianity, but ...

Jesus was a Jew

Jesus is a prophet of Islam

therefore,

A jew was an Islamic prophet

/waiting for 2 Billion heads to explode

they have insulted my Lord and Savior...i shall protest!

seething mode/on

And I should point out that as a Jew, I wouldn't feel guilty about criticizing the founders of either Christianity or Islam. Although I wouldn't fear for my life from seething Christians. Only the Muslims are against freedom of speech.

#14 ratherdashing

Nah, only works if you are an Islamist... the rest of us would get locked up for life...

There was a link on a previous thread regarding the Pope's visit, and how it is not so much to meet with islam's leaders as it is a meeting with the members of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Let me see if I can find it . . . . . . .

#20 shug 11/26/2006

Jesus was a Jew

Jesus is a prophet of Islam

therefore,

A jew was an Islamic prophet

LOL! Great logic!

And what's with all the red? Isn't green the official holy color of islam?

Jesus was a Prophet of Islam, even though he wasn't a murderous psychotic misogynist pedophile?

If the Christian right was as violent and as intolerant as the leftists in this country thought that they were, this kind of statement would be met with rioting, torchings, and demonstrations against the Islamists that we've come to expect of the Islamists whenever there is the slightest offense made Islam. The thing is, the Christian right is nowhere near as violent as the Islamists; they're not even in the same ballpark. They're not playing the same sport.

The Pope and his statements have become a lightning rod and it is instructive to see how the Islamists have responded. They've acted precisely in the way Benedict knew they would using the words of a long dead emperor and pope to highlight the violent nature of Islam and religion and whether and how we get past that violence.

Barf city!

# 27 lawhawk

The Christian Right is too busy being Christian.

Anybody collecting links to Islamic terrorists praising the LLL win in the last election?

I've got a bunch, just wanna add to the collection.

MAKING
LISTS,
R

So, because some person is holding up a sign, I'm supposed to instantly believe her insanity? I prefer the bumper sticker, "My boss was a Jewish carpenter."

27 Lawhawk,

Exactly.

I figured the Turks would dress up their
country to look more European, to aid their dream of joining the EU. But they're not. I think they realize that the mountain is coming to Mohammed, so to speak.

Here it is . . . . posted by godfrey on the Lebanon thread . . . .

In other news, the Pope is going to Turkey this week to talk to the Orthodox who are (surprise) facing death by a thousand cuts of dhimmitude.

George Weigel has an overview of the issue.

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Semi OT-

Is the guy that shot the last Pope safely in jail? With an upcoming Papal visit, I'd hate to see him loose on the streets...

#25

The Turks use red to symbolize how the sea turned red when they dumped the bodies of the Greeks into in after a military victory.

They turn down the Holy Son of God that said: "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you..."
but will follow to the ends of the earth a 7th Century child-molesting nomad that worshipped the pagan Babylonian moon god, "allah".

If it weren't so ridiculous, it'd be funny.

Note that I said "if".

Barf.

~Norsk Troll

#34 me

From the link:

This Papal visit has as much to do with Orthodox Christians as it has to do with Islam.

Although the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople does not exercise the jurisdictional and doctrinal authority in world Orthodoxy that the papacy exercises in world Catholicism, it does enjoy a historic status as "first among equals" in Orthodoxy, plays an important role in coordinating Orthodox affairs globally and is regarded as the spiritual center of global Orthodoxy by Orthodox believers.

Yet it is Turkish law, not the canons of the Orthodox Church, that determines who is eligible to be elected ecumenical patriarch

, and Turkish law limits the pool of possible candidates to Turkish citizens living in Turkey. As a recent memorandum from the Ecumenical Patriarchate put it, "the result of these restrictions is that in the not so distant future the Ecumenical Patriarchate may not be able to elect a Patriarch."

#26 religion of bacon 11/26/2006 03:05PM PST

Jesus was a Prophet of Islam, even though he wasn't a murderous psychotic misogynist pedophile?

Religion of bacon:

I just asked His Majesty, Jesus.

He said that He was in no way connected with Islam.

PMANOI

~Norsk Troll

And what's with all the red? Isn't green the official holy color of islam?

yeah, but red is the color of all the blood that the religion of pieces spills.

/logic mode off

Jesus said about false prophets:

"You shall know them by their fruits."

'Nuff said.

truly the ...prophet muhammod sucks brigade...turkey division

#37 Norsk

If it weren't so ridiculous deadly, it'd be funny.

Just my thought.

Hello Mama Winger.

41 mama winger

you shall know them by their fruits

#41 mama winger

Jesus said about false prophets:

"You shall know them by their fruits."

Talking about the moonbats?

Well it seems that Islam isnt just content to Have mohammed as its prophet they feel the need to wrap Christianity in a Burka as well.

Totalitarianism much ?

It's obvious to anyone with eyes to see that Mohammed would not be fit to strap the sandals on Jesus' feet.

Onward Christian Soldiers, and may God protect Benedict.

A little smiting wouldn't be bad either.

Yes, they think, all Muslims believe this, that Jesus taught Islam. Islam pretty much negates everything Jesus taught. Muslims in sharia, and near-sharia areas learn about Jesus as if he was Muhammed, and that Christians twisted his teaching to their liking. So, we are pretty much apostates in their eyes. Renegades! lol

Anyway, it is an insult.

Why does America support the Turkish bid for EU membership?

#20 Shug

Don't be a chicken, let's take it to final conclusion:

Jesus was a Jew

Jesus was a prophet of Islam

Muslims are followers of Islam

therefore,

All Muslims are Jews.

Maybe one of the Christians in the room could tell me the difference between Latin Christians and Eastern Christians as it pertains to the divinity of Jesus?

Denying that Jesus is the Son of God is an insult to all Christians. I feel the urge to buy a Koran and use it as toliet paper.

#46 Bill Amos,

Well it seems that Islam isnt just content to Have mohammed as its prophet they feel the need to wrap Christianity in a Burka as well.

Well in this respect the Islamists aren't alone. "Messianic Jews" seek to wrap Judaism in Christian vestments?

And these are the people that want to join the EU.

Imagine, Turkey, a member of the European Union.

Ha, I can't wait till it happens. Euroweenies will get what they deserve.

Well, this might just explain what REALLY happened to John the Baptist.

#52 Kevin Shook 11/26/2006 03:30PM PST

Denying that Jesus is the Son of God is an insult to all Christians. I feel the urge to buy a Koran and use it as toliet paper.

Already beat you to it, man: CAIR was good enough to send me a Koran Toilet Paper roll in the mail last year. I've sent Mohammed to Meccah on his trusty steed "Charmin" many times since then.

Nice and soft on these hairy buttocks of mine.

I am a troll, after all...

~Norsk Troll

#49 Nordish12

Does the US matter in an internal EU matter like that?

#52 Kevin Shook

No, it's not an insult, it's a matter of personal faith...

However, I doubt that Jesus is a prophet of Islam- totally different messages...

#51 sailordude 11/26/2006 03:29PM PST

Maybe one of the Christians in the room could tell me the difference between Latin Christians and Eastern Christians as it pertains to the divinity of Jesus?

Latin Christians celebrate Mass with Salsa...?

I don't know....

~Norsk Troll

Right...

Jesus was a nice Jewish boy who went into his fathers business.

WOOD
WORKER,
R

#55 Andopolis
Well, this might just explain what REALLY happened to John the Baptist.

lol

#51 sailordude

I've read the Peshitta text in English as well as the Catholic Bible
and as to the Divinity of Jesus, I see no difference.

#60 Render

Jesus was a nice Jewish boy who went into his fathers business.

And we have two major religions fighting over him. Not to mention racial groups saying he was race "X", and gay groups claiming he was gay.....

Quite a celebrity.....

#58 Odinist

If drawing a cartoon of Mohammed is an "insult" then making false claims of Jesus is an insult. Rather than kill and pillage, which the Muslims seem to enjoy, I instead will insult their "Holy" book.

#2 gtrtech

Don't tell Jesus that, He'd be pretty pissed, i suspect.

Well, I suspect He would forgive them.

Doesn't mean we have to though.

Ya know, I actually am very insulted; and am starting to feel that maybe it is time for Christians to take a page from the muslim "victim" book; and start making some real noise. I'm sick of these nuts saying whatever about our Lord, and am truly becoming angry. How do our liberal friends not see this for what it really is? These are dangerous people saying blasphemous things about The Son of God. You're an atheist you say? Well you'll be one of the first to lose your head by these burka wearin', head choppin' lunatics. So you may want to get on the side of the "good guys" and help us keep these crazies from starting this crap here. And, oh, by the way, the Pope better have a nice safe trip to Turkey OR ELSE. How's that?

Matthew 3:11
"But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry." John the Baptist referring to Jesus the Christ
Koran:
"But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. Jesus referring to Mohammed the prophet.

The Gospels were set down on paper about 600 years before the Koran was written.

As far as the little poster placard in the photo, believing in the divinity of Christ is the definition of a Christian. It trumps everything else. Lots of religions consider Jesus to be some sort of prophet or created being, so that's nothing new or unique.

#62 Atman

as to the Divinity of Jesus, I see no difference.

Of course there are no degrees of divinity. Jesus Christ is Lord of Creation, Son of God, part of the Trinity comprising the Unity of the Godhead. All Christians know this as concrete fact no less real than their own breathing.

#66 dammad

maybe it is time for Christians to take a page from the muslim "victim" book; and start making some real noise

You mean like, time for a, er, Crusade?

Sign me up!

#59 etnorsktroll

#62 atman

Divinity might not be the most precise term to exlain the Schism, but I am always amazed at how little, Bible verse quoters, actually know about their own religion.

/let the fun begin

First let me say that mohammed was spawned when Satan buggered a pig. He was nursed on the member of a billy goat, and weaned on camel dung. He is Satan's eternal catamite in hell.

Now that I have that off my chest, here are a few more islamic gems of enlightenment:

Was Jesus the son of God?

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. -Surah 5:17 (Yusuf Ali)

They say: "God hath begotten a son!" - Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! Say ye about Allah what ye know not? -Surah 10:68 (Yusuf Ali)

They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"! You have uttered a gross blasphemy. The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble. Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son. It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son. –Surah 19:88-92 (Rashad Khalifa)

…the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! -Surah 9:30 (Yusuf Ali)

****
On the trinity

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. –Surah 5:73 (Yusuf Ali)

****
On the crucifiction
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise – Surah 4:157-8 (Yusuf Ali)

****
On the Jews
Amongst them we (Allah) have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief. -Surah 5:64 (Yusuf Ali)

JWM

#70 sailordude

Divinity might not be the most precise term to exlain the Schism, but I am always amazed at how little, Bible verse quoters, actually know about their own religion.

I would rather that I know nothing of religion...and everything about Jesus.

I will live forever with Christ Jesus, The Holy Son of God, sailordude....

....not with a 'religion'.

**wink**

~Norsk Troll

JESUS WAS A JEW!

JESUS WAS A RABBI!

Looking at the posted photo, I wonder what Billy Graham would say? I think the Pope should make another Declaration...and soon.
He has just witnessed blashphemy. Or shall we call on Silas to quell the masses of mo-men.

Whether it be the Messiah or the Mossiach, He will come again (just ask Roy Buchanan) and he won't be Mo that's for damn sure.

I think the Three Stooges were the True prophets of Islam

Curly, Larry & of course, Mo !

nyuk, nyuk, nyuk,

allie nyuk, nyuk, akbar!

The Sonship and Divinity of Jesus are upheld, lauded and explained in a passionate, rational way by the righteousness that is Christ, come in His New Name, Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God!

Christ has come, in the Glory of the Father (of God)!

#70 sailordude

I am always amazed at how little, Bible verse quoters, actually know about their own religion

Very few Christians are also relgious scholars or historians. Detailed knowledge of the history of Christianity is not only requires a lifetime of study, it is also absolutely irrelevent to knowing Jesus Christ as out Savior and as the Son of God Almighty.

One might as well say that people who aren't able to quote the Federalist Papers and the Magna Carta from memory have no business voting in a democracy.

#72 EtNorskTroll

Ditto.

I think we should all pray that Benedict's visit is a peaceful one. Today at Mass we were asked to pray that the meeting between Benedict and the Orthodox resulted in us establishing more common ground rather than just seeing our differences. Personally I thought, let's just hope Benedict gets in and out of Turkey in one piece and stays alive.

For some reason I don't think the welcome mat will be out.

#72 etnorsktroll

I respect your piety. I was only trying to show that it is not only Muslims who are hyper-sensitive to questions about their beliefs.

History repeats. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it over and over and over again.

From my vantage point as a non-believer, I am tired of being caught in the cross-fire between the Abramaic faiths.

Bible verse quoters

One thing I will agree on is that quoting Scripture to an atheist is like playing Mozart for a congenitally deaf man: he just won't get it. Might as well quote the phone book.

The good thing is that spiritual enlightenment--and with it salvation--are alwayd available to everyone of us, even a lowly former atheist like myself.

Keep an open mind. Don't do things backward: discover your spiritual side first, THEN approach Scripture with an open heart.

Well in this respect the Islamists aren't alone. "Messianic Jews" seek to wrap Judaism in Christian vestments?

I guess you dont get the Irony that Jesus was Jewish do you ? So what is your point exactly ?

Secular Turkey in Action! didn't anyone ever tell these guys it only remains secular if you maintain it? They're on a downward slide into theocracy.

I don't understand.

George Bush told Islam means Peace

what gives?

"Jesus is not son of God. He is a prophet of islam."

No, he's the founder of Christianity. Islam didn't even get his name right (Jesus' name in islam is "isa"). Jesus is not part of islam. In islam, isa didn't even get crucified.

#70 sailordude

To paraphrase a Tibetan saying:

The gift of Truth excels all gifts.

As my nic hints, I am a seeker of truth.

This is the face of the Enemy. And it is the future if the Enemy is not defeated. I can not escape the conclusion that we are now engaged in the last great battle for the future of human race. I have said this here before. The world is dividing into three camps: The Beast, The Whore, The Remnant. The alignment of sides is all but complete. You see one in the illustration above. The Euro-socialist secular left (including blue-state America) is the second camp. The Book says the third camp wins, but it's going to get awfully scary before the end. Keep faith.

JWM

[Link: www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu...]

Everything You Wanted To Know About Jesus But Were Afraid To Ask

John and Jesus preached adherence to the Torah, or the Jewish Law.  But their mission was changed dramatically when John was arrested and then killed.  After a period of uncertainty, Jesus began preaching anew in Galilee and challenged the Roman authorities and their Jewish collaborators in Jerusalem.  He appointed a Council of Twelve to rule over the twelve tribes of Israel, among whom he included his four brothers.  After he was crucified by the Romans, his brother James – the “Beloved Disciple” – took over leadership of the Jesus Dynasty. 

#80 pro bush canuck

And I have traveled the opposite direction. From a confirmed Christian to a Diest. It was a road of many discoveries.

Our Founding Fathers understood what happens when religion and the state intermix. I see it happening now. How many lizards would welcome the banning of Islam? Even though that is unconstitutional.

For the record; I too, would welcome the banning of Islam, along with all other religions.

Non fui, fui, non sum, no curo.

I was not, I was, I am not, I don't care.

Pass the polonium, please!

#80 Pro-

For me it is to sit quietly with a clear mind. Dwell in the Love of the One and then read the scriptures.

49 Nordish12

Because they're our ally and have been for a long time (for example, Turks fought in the Korean War) - nothing to sneeze at in the ME; because we have a strong trade and economic relationship with them, and their econony is strong and getting stronger (it's progressing much better than Europe, in some ways); and because we want them to be stronger and continue to be our ally.

#51 sailordude

Maybe one of the Christians in the room could tell me the difference between Latin Christians and Eastern Christians as it pertains to the divinity of Jesus?

There is no difference at all. The Orthodox Church and theRoman Church were basically one and the same until around 1054 AD I believe.

Each major town at that time had a bishop representing the Holy Universal (Catholic) Church. The bishop of Rome began to gain more and more political and spiritual authority, while the Eastern Church centered in Constantinople maintained more authority in the East.

Around 1054 AD (I believe) the bishop of Rome made an autonomous decision to change one of the Church's creeds (the Nicene?) on its own without consulting the bishops of the Eastern church. He also took authority as the Pope, the one at the top.

The bishops in the EAst felt this was not biblical, and did not bring themselves under the authority of the Pope. Instead they maintained the Church traditions and teachings as it had been for the previous 1000 years.

Dead Sea Squirrel or other Orthodox bloggers can make corrections to my statement.

#49 Nordish12 11/26/2006 03:27PM PST

Why does America support the Turkish bid for EU membership?

Good question! Turkey is an Islamic tinderbox waiting to blow. Come to think of it, so is France, England and Germany.

For the record; I too, would welcome the banning of Islam, along with all other religions.

Hmm... that didn't work out so well in the Soviet Union (25 million dead), Maoist China (40-50 million dead), North Korea (~2 million dead), Cambodia (1.5 million dead), Cuba (140,000 dead), well you get the picture.

I think I understand your point regarding the conflict that orgnized relgion produces, but that is because religion is a qunitessesntially human activity, and hence prone to human weakness, stupidity and destructiveness. I think most people globally would agree that an atheistocracy (is that a word?) would be infintely worse (as history has amply demonstrated) than even an Islamic theocracy (though those are pretty rotten as well).

God is perfect. Humans are not. Religion is the result.

Maybe someone said this earlier and I missed it:

If Jesus Christ is indeed a prophet of ISLAM, why do they ignore the fact that Jesus preached love and forgivness; equality; turning the other cheek; liberation from slavery; and also, don't forget, Jesus was kind to women.

So many other things that JC the "prophet" spoke of (in action and word) that the Muslims completely ignore.

Hmmm...

In the scriptures, Abraham is told to sacrifice Isaac, then given a ram to be sacrificed in the boy's place.
The Koran, written a couple of millenia afterwards, alters that passage to name Ishmael,as the chosen son who was to be sacrificed.
Why the change?
The Lord said to Abraham: "Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Issac that your offspring will be reckoned. I will make the son of the maidservent a nation, also becasue he is your offspring."
Genesis 16:11-12
You shall name him Ishmael for the Lord has heard of your misery.
He will be a wild donkey of a man, his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him
and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."
The problem then, is that the earliest records show that Ishmael was the son of the servant, not the wife. The problem is, down through history, who gets the inheritance?

They seem so tolerant and understnading.

/sarc

"Jesus is not son of God. He is a Prophet of Islam." I prefer to believe the testimony of those who were there than the sayings of an arab who had visions 600 years later.

F*ck mohammed and f*ck islam. The first is a rapist pedophile madman raving in the desert. The second is a made up and murderous ideology. Happily for Christians, the jesus of that filthy ideology islam is not Jesus Christ of the Bible, Son of the Most High God.

Do they not see the fallacy of that sign about Jesus?

He was either a raving lunatic or who he said he was; there is not room for something in between. Having said that, how foolish the muslims are for saying he was something he certainly never claimed to be.

To the Hoodrat with the sign in the caption:

Jesus is gonna light my cigarette with your burning skull ;)

#100 jlfintx

Do they not see the fallacy of that sign about Jesus?

He was either a raving lunatic or who he said he was; there is not room for something in between.

Exactly. He was either the Son of God as He said, or He was a nut, or He was a liar most cruel. People who say He was just a good man - would a good man lie and deceive His followers and perpetrate the scam of the millenia?

#70 sailordude,

Divinity might not be the most precise term to exlain the Schism, but I am always amazed at how little, Bible verse quoters, actually know about their own religion.

Pretty easily explained. One, Christianity isn't a religion. It's a relationship which tells me you know nothing of it. Two, since when is Catholic Church History relevant to salvation? We are talking a millineum after the Holy Word was penned.

The Almighty is the Creator of all mankind. Who amongst us would decide for Him who is worthy of living the short life He allows us on earth to the fullest? It seems Islam has the arrogance to decide people’s fate for all, in the name of Allah (the devil, who created nothing), and pass it all off as coming from the Almighty. Shame on Allah.

Whether one believes or doesn’t believe that Jesus was the Son of God probably doesn’t matter to the Almighty. It is the belief in the message that Jesus brought that constitutes belief. I cannot find one written word that Jesus ever spoke that wasn’t total truth, even though I’m not sure about the “Son of God” part. Jesus wasn’t into “group power”, but only to provide each individual soul the opportunity to choose their way to the Almighty. Seems pretty simple to me.

Islam, on the other hand, seems to be into putting those who brought the message of the Almighty into distinct categories. Islam would tell us that “religion” is everything, and the individual must conform to their distinct idea of religion. They have a lot of “prophets”, whose teachings they ignore, except of course for old Mo’, who actually prophesied nothing. The message that Jesus (and Moses and Abraham, for that matter) brought is relegated by muslims into the “nice but not necessary” category, and Mohammed’s message trumps everything else. Too bad for them.

My and your Creator has dimensions that we as lame humans can only imagine. The Almighty separates; He separated the land from the seas, He separated the heavens from the earth, He separated the night from the day, and He will separate the good from the evil. In the latter separation, each individual gets to choose. The “group” means nothing. If you really believe that your earthly existence is all there is, you have no problem; power, wealth, resources, indulgence and hedonism are yours for the taking. If, however, you have some slight indication that there’s more, it is quite possible that your performance here on earth may carry some weight with the Almighty. He’s not above forgetting you, should you prove yourself spiritually forgettable. He’s not above punishing, should you actively pursue evil ways, and He’s not above forgiving, should you repent for failing to achieve the goodness you seek. Not very complicated, is it? Oh, and by the way, His name ain’t Allah.

#98 mjazzguitar 11/26/2006 04:29PM PST

"Jesus is not son of God. He is a Prophet of Islam." I prefer to believe the testimony of those who were there than the sayings of an arab who had visions 600 years later.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe he ingested too much Polonium. It acts as an hallucinogenic in its initial stages.

#70 sailordude, if you have questions ask away.

I am not afraid of any questions about the bible. I have read it several times.

I don't think that disagreement with Christian doctrine equals some terrible insult. I personally disagree with Christian and Islamic doctrine. From my perspective these tit-for-tat PR squabbles between Christians and Muslim are pointless.

#102 mama winger

I have found that over time my faith broadens and deepens to the point where--at the risk of sounding high falutin'--Christ for me takes on a cosmic, tranascendent reality which is more real than my own reflection in the mirror.

Earthly things pass. The Spirit is eternal.

"Jesus is not son of God. He is a prophet of Islam."

Well, you can certainly say this if you like. Just remember that Christians believe otherwise. Show some tolerance.

#108 Pro-Bush Canuck

In my life as a Christian ( a conscious choice at age 11) I have experienced safe orthodoxy, dry spells, an overflow of the Holy Spirit, and mystical experiences. It used to bother me that I could not always feel a high, so to speak.

I have come to love that about my faith. The ordinariness of it. It is an underlying constant, no matter what. I have learned not to go seeking a special experience, it comes upon me like the wind. I am sometimes a little shocked, always delightfully surprised.

Ever present.

#103 oops...that's millennium.

Through my unique lens.

I have to say I am seriously (no joke) offended by this, I was moved to anger, and then to prayer. When I prayed a verse came to mind, "Do good to those that curse you and spitefully use you"quoted from memory from Matthew 5. Compare that with "behead those who insult Islam" and you see which God is a better God. Matthew 5 alone destroys any connection between Jesus and islam. This is not to say the Christian is a dhimmi, but he forgives those who insult him, while they defend their family, faith and country. These poor fools do not know the true God, they insult a 3rd level devil (not as sophisticated as the higher devils) for God.
Given the choice between an open minded atheist and these pseudo-deists, give me the atheist every time.

#107 kazamutan,

I don't think that disagreement with Christian doctrine equals some terrible insult. I personally disagree with Christian and Islamic doctrine. From my perspective these tit-for-tat PR squabbles between Christians and Muslim are pointless.

PR squabbles or not, 3,000 folks lost their life on 9/11 because they failed to understand to murderers, it means everything.

#100

My point exactly. Are they telling Jesus that the whole "only begotten Son" thing was a scam? That He is a liar? I think he would be very annoyed, if eventually forgiving...

And I have to chime it on the humiliation/blaspheme vibe...works for me.

Fox is running a report right now "Islam in Europe" ....says French are starting to wake up to the violence of the Muslim youth there. 80 cars a day are being torched, people are belligerent when police try to arrest them -- police are starting to scream for help.

#107 kazumatan

And I am glad you are in a country where you can believe as you wish, if indeed you are here in America.

It would probably be a good idea tho to familiarize yourself with this religious conflict as that is what the next great war will involve. Be prepared, I always say.

And welcome :)

#112 Aaron,

LOL. And much better workmanship than the Reuter's fauxtographs I might add.

#104 grandma

Wonderful post. Thanks.

The fundamental problem with Islam as I see it is that it attempts to stifle that most precious of God-given gifts: freedom. What makes the United States great--more than any other feature--is the emphasis on human freedom from the get-go. This is also an integral feature of our Judeo-Christian heritage (Leviticus notwithstanding).

Most well-adjusted people living in a free society will come to embrace faith in God. I am less concerned that someone is a Christian, Jew or Hindu than I am that they have, as you so eloquently put it, found a path to the Almighty.

A life devoid of spirituality is to me a sad thing (I lived that way for many years, and only in hindsight do I realize how shallow my life really was).

Islam not only crushes genuine spirituality (which can never, EVER be compelled), it seeks to propagate an ersatz version of spirituality which is the mirror image of the real thing. Whereas truly spiritual man is animated by generosity, love and gratitiude, the mirror-man is animated by violence, hatred and envy.

Islam cannot endure in the long run specifically for this reason. The even worse secular fundamentalist socialist atheists will be gone even sooner. Therefore some day the earth will be a peaceful place!

#107 kazumatan

You missed the point completely. The point wasn't who's right and who's wrong; it was what is the reaction of the Christian world to this rather obvious insult, compared to the reaction of the muslim hoardes to cartoons. Comprende?

CNN Talking Head:

The Pope will visit the Blue Mosque, hoping to convince Muslims that the Vatican does indeed respect Islam.

Says who? Has the Vatican relased a statement declaring this hope? It could be; I don't know. But the way this is phrased, as revealed fact, gives no clue as to who has divined the hopes of the Vatican. If the Vatican has said this, then the talkin head should say so. If not, then a nameless, faceless copywriter may have simply inserted his opinion, safe in the knowledge that he will never be questioned. But unless it is a Vatican statement, the most likely scenario is this: a leftist editor is writing the news the way he wants it to read, presenting his opinion as fact.

Is that blue poster a photoshop?

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

It's time these people got over themselves.
If they don't like this planet, they should get the F**ck off.

You certainly have to hand it to those Muslims, from the picture above you can tell that their Nuns have turned out in great numbers to express their opinion.

112 aaron

LMAO

Obviously, Mohammed et al misunderstood what the Holy Trinity was - they seem to have thought the Trinity was Father, Mother (Mary), and Son.

"But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry." John the Baptist referring to Jesus the Christ

I think he meant Charles Darwin.

#106 jlfntx

I once asked etnorsktroll these questions, and he got mad. Here are some questions that have always bothered me.

Why did Jesus leave no written record of himself. All we know of Jesus is through third parties. Those third parties claim divine revealation. Why did God only reveal it to them? In their language? What about the rest of humanity? Why is America not mentioned in the Bible?

Please don't say, God works in mysterious ways.

The schism between the East and the Western church was basically about who decides the doctrine, the straw that broke the camels back is the "filoque" clause added to the Nicene creed. Rome changed the creed to read "the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son" The Eastern church basically said,"...what? We don't agree to that!" and the festering schism occurred. Other than that and regional difference, there is no real difference between the Catholic and the Orthodox faith. They recognize each others faiths in a way they don't recognize Protestants.

I'm of two minds on this visit. My sword swinging side (actually a laser designator) wants the Pope to go in there and lay down an intellectual challenge to Islam, starting a debate that will expose the vile heart of their cult to the globe. Then basically dare them to singe his robe as he walks out slowly.

The more retrospective side says we were given guidance; anethema. Ignore Islam, address the Christians' needs and leave. They will make a spectacle of themselves that will say more then you could ever write.

If the first road is taken, for all that is holy, don't let the Vatican diplomats even see a draft. Write your speech alone with your decades of scholarship and lots of prayer. It may very well be your last.

#128 sailordude

I once asked etnorsktroll these questions, and he got mad. Here are some questions that have always bothered me.

Ask the source.

110 mama winger

Philippians 4:4-7

Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

#100 jlfintx
#102 Mama Winger

......and their math is off. :=)

Charles, MORE PHOTOS FROM THIS PROTEST

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Read some reviews of Robert Spencer's book

"The Truth about Muhammad"

#130 de La Valette
The Pope has no choice. Muslims are lost souls in his eyes. He has to challenge them.

#134 shug

zeir shein!

#107 kazumatan

I don't think that disagreement with Christian doctrine equals some terrible insult. I personally disagree with Christian and Islamic doctrine. From my perspective these tit-for-tat PR squabbles between Christians and Muslim are pointless.

I agree with your 1st two points, but as to the third? I don't see it as a tit for tat as much as an education... the Islamic/Leftist front is a danger to ALL religions, or lack thereof. By embracing Islam, they more or less condone Sharia law... which nullifies the whole freedom of religion thing...

#128 sailordude

Please don't say, God works in mysterious ways.

Welll, He does!

Seriously, I don't think you will ever get the answers you want because spiritual matters--matters of religious faith--are specifically those which transcend the limits of empirical observation and simple logic. Some things just are. You either accept them as a whole, or you spend your life analyzing fragments of Reality but never lifting your gaze upward, above and beyond the horizontal plane on which our mundane material lives play out.

There are an infinite number of "contradictions" in the Bible. But guess what? There are an even greater number in science! How about that bedrock discipline, physics. Is Newtonian physics (which was considered unassailable for centuries) false in the light of Einstein's relativity? Yes? No? Maybe? Not really, but sort of. Does quantum mechanics mean that E=mc2 is false? Again, yes and no.

Truth is all "relative" in the horzontal world--even physics! Only in the spiritual realm--in metaphysics--can we conemplate pure Truth, pure beauty: the Divine.

Humans are made to apprehend the Divine. That's what we're for, and that is what life is all about. Dissecting the Bible is like dissecting Mozart: it completely misses the point, and destroys the beauty and truth therein for the observer.

Relax and just meditate on God. At first...nothing. After a while...a twinkle. Gradually you will begin to experience the spiritual knowledge that has been missing, and you will be transformed!

Only now the West is waking up to what was written a few hundred years ago:

`Smite Turks with immense vigour. A Singh who obeys the Rahit does not bow when he meets a Turk. Never serve Turks, never greet a Turk, never trust Turks. Serve only the Khalsa. Avoid Muslim huttha meat. By fighting them face to face the Muslims will be defeated. Remain ever alert against the Turks. A Turk should be neither accepted as a master nor treated with deference. Keep Muslims away from your cooking-square when preparing for a langar. Muslims are polluted.`
[Link: allaboutsikhs.com...]

Also remember that Turkey sabotaged the Iraqi venture by refusing permission at the last minute, as a result of which ONE whole division and hardware had to be re-routed from the Mediterranean and all around S.Africa to meet up with their counterparts in Iraq. This naturally upset the progress of the War which was already on. This is typical Muslim treachery.

The US would do better in helping the Iraqi Kurds get their Kurdistan. To hell with the Turks.
At least the Kurds will be grateful. And will go a long way to encourage the Iranian and Turkish Kurds.

"The Ottomans lurched from outrage to outrage. Regular slaughters of Armenians in Bayazid (1877), Alashgurd (1879), Sassun (1894), Constantinople (1896), Adana (1909) and Armenia itself (1895-96) claimed a total of two hundred thousand lives, but they were only rehearsals for the genocide of 1915. The slaughter of Christians in Alexandria in 1881 was only a rehearsal for the artificial famine induced by the Turks in 1915-16 that killed over a hundred thousand Maronite Christians in Lebanon and Syria. So imminent and ever-present was the peril, and so fresh the memory of these events in the minds of the non-Moslems, that illiterate Christian mothers dated events as so many years before or after "such and such a massacre." Across the Middle East, the bloodshed of 1915-1922 finally destroyed ancient Christian communities and cultures that had survived since Roman times-groups like the Jacobites (Syrian Orthodox), Nestorians (Iraqi Orthodox), and Chaldaeans (Iraqi Catholic)...
[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

#128 sailordude:

A1: Eusebius Chapter 13 describes a correspondence between The Christ and Abgar of the Essenes;

A2: All of the Apostles (save John) died for their testimony (and died alone); and

A3: A mystery (unnamed) nation is described in Isaiah 18 (clue: the first word in verse 1 is Ho!, not Woe.

/nuff said

Ten guesses why this sign is in English.

(Hello Western media!)

It's a close race, Vegas is taking bets.

[Link: www.realtruth.org...]

#140 hutchrun

At least the Kurds will be grateful.

You could be right, but I get this uneasy feeling that I've heard that one before about whatever Muslim group is "on our side" this year. Twenty years ago we were told to admire the brave mujahadeen battling the nasty Soviets in Afghanistan. Those same mujahadeen turned out to be...al Qaeda and the Taliban.

Then we're told the brave Iraqis will be glad to be liberated from nasty Saddam. So why are they still trying to kill us?

Iranian "students" are eager for democracy? Are those the same students who put the Ayatollah in power?

I'm having a pretty hard time believing that ANY Muslim society or nation is on our side in any real sense. Individual Muslims, definitely (e.g., Salim Mansur, et al). But once they form a group of three or more all bets are off.

#128 sailordude

Many millions of people down thru the ages have asked the same kinds of questions that you are asking.

There is an account in the New Testament, not a parable but a report, of a man who died and too late realized the reality of God:

Luke 16:25-31 (New International Version)

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Here you see the same kind of thing - my family and I had access to the Law and the Prophets, but we did not believe. If we had only had something more - something tangible - THEN we would believe.

The reply goes to the heart of Christianity: "Even if one rose from the dead, those who do not want to believe, won't"

It's faith. That's probably not what you wanted to hear. But there it is. :)

#87 so

Some factual errors in what you quoted, starting with Jesus' alleged change of emphasis after John's beheading, but most definitely james was not the beloved disciple, it was John( the disciple and writetr of the gospel, the three letters and the Revelation.)

James and Jude are the only known brothers of Jesus. Thier two letters form part of the epistles.

#139 Pro-

Yes, that's what I suggested too.

See #90.

#128 sailordude,

I have a question for you. Who do you say Jesus is?

How many of the folks in the protest speak or read English? I've been to Istanbul, and I can assure you that outside of the tourist industry, most Turks there do not speak English, and I'm guessing that this crowd is not from the tourist industry. The sign is made for the western media, as is, we can surmise, the entire protest. These are people intent on influencing western, particularly American public opinion because they know that what people think in Turkey or elsewhere does not matter.

Turkey is actually the one Islamic nation that has embraced technology and tried to adapt to modernity. It should be a model for other Islamic nations. Instead, as the protest shows, its young people are increasingly Islamist. Sadly, it has been the scene of Islamists' attacks in recent years.

#88 sailordude

"...For the record; I too, would welcome the banning of Islam, along with all other religions..."

Dude,

I'll thank you not to lump any or all other religions in with a murderous expansionist death cult that now seeks nuclear weapons to bring on the big islamic bang.

But I'll defend your right to be an ignorant moral relativist.

#139 pro bush canuck

I agree with everything you just stated, and grandma before that.

I never said I did not believe in God.

I believe in God.

I believe in one God.

I believe in an afterlife.

I also believe that the Torah, Bible and Koran are not scripture. They are just books written by men. They are also the root cause for much of the world's problems.

Resident Jew here. I have to say that I'm a bit taken aback by the insistence by some that Christianity is, apparently, the only True Religion. For those who believe that,terrific. May God bless you. But please don't denigrate others who are also trying to be true partners with God, even if their path isn't yours.

Regarding religion, and living as a minority in a majority country, I believe that the central challenge for human beings is to recognize that there can be more than one truth. In saying this, I don't mean that "everything is relative". God forbid. What I mean is that I can be a devout Jew and yet my truth can - and does - coexist with yours, and neither need be negated. If there is only ONE WAY, then everyone else is wrong, and it's human nature to feel compelled to convince them of their wrongness or forcibly persuade them to change. This has resulted in evil over and over.

Instead, I'll quote Dennis Prager, the radio host. He notes that there is "good religion" and "bad religion". Good religion guides and inspires people to live compassionate, kind, connected lives and to strive for a more just and peaceful world. Bad religion speaks for itself. Moreover, Prager has often said that "right action is more important than right belief or right ritual" and I agree. Belief and ritual, to my mind, are meant to take you somewhere, to mold and guide who you are and how you live your life. I realize that the concept of heaven and the afterlife are often core parts of Christian belief, but my emphasis here is on addressing questions in this life: Who are you? What kind of person are you? What principles do you live by?

Such qualities are not the sole province of Christians.

I suspect that many Christians view Judaism as unfinished, waiting to be completed by belief in Jesus. But there are fundamental theological differences between the two that make them incompatible (not to mention that Judaism is, in fact, for Jews, already whole and complete). Specifically:

There are no divine human beings in Judaism.

There is no original sin.

There is no eternal damnation.

Jesus was a man, who lived and died as a Jew.

The Jewish Bible (aka Old Testament) is a living document which has been expanded on through the centuries with ongoing commentary. It is not a preview of prophecies fulfilled by Jesus.

I'm not disputing anyone's faith or belief. I just don't share them, and there's room in my world for that. Rabbi Harold Kushner once wrote that good people of faith are not at cross-purposes but rather are all on the same side.

I say give them Sunday Night Football and let John Madden lead them on the path of enlightenment......

I don't know of a single prophecy Muhammad stated that's come true, while I've read he's made a few false predictions, such as the world coming to an end sometime in the middle ages. That fact alone should deem him a false prophet.

#146 mama winger

If we had only had something more - something tangible - THEN we would believe.

Exactly. If there was abundant "proof" of the type agnostics seek then there would be no need for faith, in fact no need for this earthly world in the first place.

A core revelation in Christianity is that of Fallen Man. We are

apart from God

in this life; it is our natural goal to make our way back to Him. Those who insist on moving us ever further from God produced the charnel houses of the 20th century (and are poised to do it again in the 21st).

Sailordude,

I also believe that the Torah, Bible and Koran are not scripture. They are just books written by men. They are also the root cause for much of the world's problems.

And exactly what problems have the Word of Jews and Christians caused Sailor? Care to back that up with the facts of good works vs. bad because of that Word?

#152 sailordude

I believe in God

Well we're basically on the same page then.

If I were you I'd set aside the animosity toward the major faiths long enough to do a little reading of Psalms with an open mind and heart. Don't think about it the way you think about a political problem.

Let it speak to you.

#153 cat-tikva:

Bravo. Well said. I concur.

JWM

#149 goodbye_natalie

Jesus was a man who had a profound influence on the world.

#151 alegrias

For someone who hates Islam so much, your nic sure has an Islamic ring (root) to it. By the way, thanks for making my point.

Spirituality Vs. Religion (part 1)

Sedona Creative Life Center
October 16, 2004

If you know just a few things really well, there’s not much more you really need.

The Field is invisible, all encompassing, without space and time, forever and always present, the infinite. The human mind cannot conceive it. It is exquisitely gentle and powerful. The field is infinitely powerful, like a giant electromagnetic field with no ending. The field is so powerful that it includes all potentialities. Within the field, potentiality is actualized by intention. Karma is innate potentiality. If you continuously hold a thought, it will become happening. Otherwise no one would become enlightened.

As the potentiality begins to manifest, the ego instantly takes credit for it. There’s no inner, separate, personal self making anything happen.

Used to drive three times a week over Mingus Mountain. One day I suddenly saw these century plants on the side of the road, taller than I am. We checked with kinesiology to see how long the seeds had been in the ground, and we got 150 years. It didn’t grow until all conditions were just right.

To be radically honest – more honest than most people, let alone radically honest – means to find that moment a split second before the ego takes credit for something. The ego’s job is to replace God. The ego is a liar.

We do not lecture on kinesiology, and I don’t even believe in it. You can’t believe in kinesiology because it calibrates at 600, which is beyond linearity. You just use it like a screwdriver or a hammer, just as a tool. I have a certain reverence for it. It had been taught by Dr. John Diamond and others as a local phenomenon, which we discovered that it’s not.

I could have saved Martha a trip to jail. I would have told her, go to a 12-step program, look at number 10: When you make a mistake, promptly admit it. Martha was really convicted for lack of integrity. If she’d simply admitted she made a mistake, she would have been fined, end of story. She’s really in jail for lying to a federal jury.

The advance of truth doesn’t necessarily bring tranquil waters. In fact, it can disturb things for a while. You now have a new paradigm, and inherent in it is the downfall of the old.

The mind cannot find the space between two thoughts. The mind is confined to 1/10,000th of a second. The ego takes credit for all that happens in 1/10,000th of a second after the phenomenon has already occurred.

Thoughts are more like flying fish than billiard balls. Flying fish just pop up spontaneously of their own nature. And you’ll always find some professor somewhere who’ll look at this and say, The flying fish are triangulating. And he’ll provide some gibberish equations to prove it. The mind is like that professor.

Everyone is always born with the most optimal conditions for spiritual growth. The circumstances of your birth are perfectly aligned with what you optimally need for your spiritual growth. That takes care of victimhood. Karma also has its upside; it provides for the undoing of things. When you reach a certain level of consciousness, you remember what happened in your previous lifetimes. The vicissitudes of life you can look at and say, I don’t know what it’s serving, but it must be serving something. And there is group karma as well.

When you drive, you tend to spread your consciousness to the field. A meditative lifestyle, then, is one in which you become identified with the field rather than the content of the field. The mind has to move from the particular to the particular to the particular; it can’t move any faster, and flits from this to this. The field doesn’t move to anything. The witness observer is the field.

Most people think they’re thinking, but that’s just what they think. You don’t really think until level 400.

Politicians will say it’s okay to lie to get elected. Voters often base their decisions on what a politician says he’ll do about a specific situation; they don’t often ask, who is the person who’ll be for the highest good of all?

Part 2

The reason the human mind can’t discern truth from falsehood was described by Descartes. It thinks that res interna is the same as res externa, that what is true inside is also true outside.

The notion of causality itself doesn’t even follow logic. Because something follows something else doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily caused by that something. That’s the common error of the intellect, and of science as well.

That which is provable is not spiritual truth. You can prove only that which is limited to the Newtonian paradigm of the linear.
Socrates said, Man always chooses the good; in fact, he’s only capable of choosing what he sees as being good. The problem is that man doesn’t always know the good from the bad. He thinks his choices are always good, even if it’s blowing up innocent people.
Many people ask, How can you forgive others if they’re wrong?

The infinite field of consciousness, that which we consult through kinesiology, is the field of the Absolute. The ego hates to hear anything that suggests it’s not God. The ego is clever; it gets rid of God by getting rid of the sovereignty of the Absolute.

The perpetrator-victim model is res interna projected onto society. There is no perpetrator, no victim in reality.

How can you tell truth from falsehood? Unless you have a way to discern truth, kinesiology is the first way.

The same thing can be true in one context and untrue in another context. A thing is only true under certain conditions. We have permission to ask that, O Lord [he makes this statement before doing kinesiology]. The Infinite field of consciousness is what we consult. It is the Absolute. A thing can be calibrated by saying, As compared with the Absolute, this calibrates at this level.

Force is always quick and temporary; power is always slow and permanent. Power, truth, has no opposite. There is only its absence.
Below 200, people mentate. They don’t think; they think they think, but they just mentate.

The Lord’s Prayer calibrates at 650. Devotional acts calibrate at 540, because of the power of their intention. Includes folding hands in prayer, kneeling to pray, genuflexion, praying at the Wailing Wall, turning a prayer wheel, etc.

Exposure to classical music, reverence for beauty, some degree of any religion, and playing a little chess – criminality is unheard of for people who grow up with these influences. Exposure to spiritual integrity creates neuronal pathways that make it impossible to fall below integrity. This is what you can do for children to help them.

Cat-tikvah

i have a question or two.
Do jews believe in an afterlife?

Also do you consider the entire Old Testament (Esther, Ruth, Psalms, Joel Hosea etc,) as scripture or is it just the first five books?

#160 sailordude

Have you heard of David Nelmes? His point of view is similar to yours. He has a site if you are interested. Or just Google his name.

#153 cat-tikvah,

Resident Jew here. I have to say that I'm a bit taken aback by the insistence by some that Christianity is, apparently, the only True Religion. For those who believe that,terrific. May God bless you. But please don't denigrate others who are also trying to be true partners with God, even if their path isn't yours.

Exactly who here has denigrated your Faith? Without the Old Testament, the New Testament is meaningless. I say to all, believe as you must. I am confident in Jesus is who he claimed to be - God manifested in human flesh. If that makes a Jew uncomfortable I am sorry. But I can no more deny that than you can that you are Jewish. It is the basic tenet of my life.

The Jewish Bible (aka Old Testament) is a living document which has been expanded on through the centuries with ongoing commentary. It is not a preview of prophecies fulfilled by Jesus.

Of course as Christians, we believe that is exactly the purpose of the New Testament; a fulfillment of the Old Testament.

Sailordude - The internet is such a difficult conveyance for emotion and feeling. I say this because I want to ask a question in a sincere way, without appearing to jump on you. I just really want to know :)

You say that you believe in God, but do not believe the Scriptures to be divine, but rather books written by men.

If that is the case, what God are you believing in? The One revealed thru Scripture, or some other God, or type of universal goodness? How do you know that God is good? What if He's bad?

In other words, I form the basis of what I know about God by reading about Him and seeing how that makes sense in my life. How has your picture of who God is been formed?

so
your very long quote is self contradictory

Man those are some ugly women. Get some veils on em fast!

#153 cat-tikvah

the insistence by some that Christianity is, apparently, the only True Religion

This is indeed a thorny problem. I am no religious scholar, and I know many will disagree with me, but the closest I've been able to come to a solution that works for me is that Christianity is the one true religion for a Christian. That sounds paradoxical, I know. What I mean is that many in the West for whom Cristianity is their natural, centuries-old heritage have taken in recent decades to rejecting Christianity in favor of something more "exotic" (Buddhism, Wicca, Scientology--ugh). This I believe is done in what the French call mauvais fois or bad faith.

For someone born a Jew the one true religion is Judaism, and a Jew who rejects her faith on primarily political grounds (or worse, becomes an atheist) in order to embrace some alternatice religion would generally speaking be acting in bad faith. I cannot however oppose genuine, heartfelt conversions from one faith to another as long as they are motivated by a genuine love of God.

I also don't accept the validity of such "faiths" as voodoo, animism, Scientology, etc. as they are fundamentally not about the One Divine Creator. Some "polytheistic" faiths such as Hinduism are "under the hood" actually monotheistic faiths which simply reflect the many facets of God, lik light through a prism.

Not sure if that answers anything, but I'll never, ever be one of those Christians who runs around telling people they are going to Hell if they don't do things MY way. I have my own relationship with Christ, and I'll share that with anyone who is curious, but I won't condemn the heartfelt beliefs of others.

#79 sailordude

"From my vantage point as a non-believer, I am tired of being caught in the cross-fire between the Abramaic faiths."

Then don't be caught. Incidentally, I know it's commonplace to include Islam as one of three Abramaic faiths (Islam designates itself as Abramaic). Personally, I believe the inclusion of Islam to be bogus. Islam does not share the fundamental moral structure of Judeo-Christian religions: The 10 Commandments ( and Sharia law ain't no 10 Commandments, my friend).

I could no more denigrate Judaism than denigrate my own right arm.

#160 sailordude,

#149 goodbye_natalie

Jesus was a man who had a profound influence on the world

But if he was nothing more, was he not a liar then? He claimed to be the Messiah.

Abgar was the King of Edessa, not of the Essenes.

It's been awhile, geeez.

153 cat-tikvah

That, in essence, is what the Catholic Church's catechism says, too (from a Catholic, rather than a Jewish perspective, of course). It took me a while to get the gist of it, as it's complex, but boiled down, we (we being people of Abrahamic faiths) are different, we don't share all the same views, but we have more in common than some people think we do, and people of faith in God are people with faith in God. Of course, people think they are right and the others not as right or missing things, and the Church is no different. However, bottom line, everyone who's not Catholic is not automatically going to the hot place, per the Church.

#128 sailordude

I'll give it a shot.

Why did Jesus leave no written record of himself.

It sounds like you are looking for an anthropological or pure, empirico-historical rationale. I suppose that explanation could begin something like: Jesus was a Jew and the Jewish tradition of spreading the faith was by ritual, community and word of mouth. But essentially the question is a theological one: and since God by definition knows all things, He intended the Word to be spread in terms of faith and the accounts of the Gospels that in large deliver messages and parables, which are in some sense hidden or opaque means of communication. It is the old method of the Jewish prophets. For some reason, God chose this medium and it is essentially out of the grasp of a finite mind to adequate into that divine plan or insight. Christians understand there to be a deep significance to the partly concealed and private method of revelation which pertains to the nature of faith and the faculties of the souls which are inclined to faith, as essentially opposed to empirical reason.

Why did God only reveal it to them?

Again we have the empirical / faith-oriented problem again. From the empirical point of view (treating the Divine Trinity as fact), the method of revelation to the Jews at this particular time of Roman dominance of the world may have a role. The Divine Plan was for Jesus to be rejected and to die for our sins at the hands of the people of Jerusalem for a historical reason at this particular time, and it certainly relates to prophecy. That's a complicated issue involving deep knowledge of Scripture that I don't have at my fingertips. It certainly also was not a mistake that the relationship of the Jewish St. Paul (a theological and philosophical genuis) was able to spread the Gospel among the Gentiles at this particular time. Christianity then spread throughout the West due to the roads built by Rome, a time in which humanity (we can only suppose) was particularly receptive to the basic Christian messages concerned mercy (misercodia), salvation and deliverance from sins. Today, again we can only speculate about the divine plan as we are finite and thus do not know all things, the people may be spiritually blinded and insufficiently receptive to the true meaning of the Messiah. Thus it was revealed at the time and to others. In the West, we have come to see the birth of Christ as a fundamental moment in history, towards which we have oriented our entire concept of time and our relationship with the Jews, who believed the Messiah would come to Jerusalem and bring victory. The victory that was brought of a very different nature: the salvation of souls from evil and death. These things thus necessarily occurred at the time of a fundamental turning point in the West and humanity, and surely God foresaw that that Christianity would be preserved through the Medieval traditions and so forth.

One must also suppose that God intended to make faith a fundamental concept and something in one sense difficult to achieve, because man is so easily fallen in to sin and doubt, even when in the same boat as Christ who is the Lord our God during a storm. Thus it makes sense that man would not be given a kind of simplistic and direct guide to what to believe and evidence for Jesus' divine nature. Even the Apostles had trouble believing and so perhaps if mankind were given another for of revelation we would idolize the wrong kind of faith (empirical reason) or the wrong kind of God (who does not leave faith to man). But in His infinite wisdom He revealed enough such that the Word would reach the ends of the world through the church, which it has.

America is not mentioned because the point of the Bible is, in my view, not to be directed at or restricted to political entities. This would be quite strange and anthropocentric. The holy text's point is not to be a kind of Nostradamus, a popular guide for predicting the future withing the realm of political developments.

#170 Daisy

You are right. The mohammedan claim to Abrahamic faith is ludicrous. It is nothing more than the same old Ba'al religion.

Semi OT:

Here's who those women need to meet:

Hot Infidel Babe of the Week....

#161 So?

You've been reading Dr. Hawkins. How about I, Reality and Subjectivity?

#170 Daisy

The 10 Commandments are not THAT different from SOME of the principles of Sharia. As I wrote above, I believe the profound difference between Islam and Judeo-Christianity is the role of human freedom. Jesus conspicuously failed to compel His followers. He set an example, preached, healed, fed and Loved. People followed Him of their own free will, as they do to this day. (Spare me the stories of the Inquistion or the Conquistators, Christianity has its human--that is to say imperfect--side.)

Islam is all about compulsion, all about the rejection of human freedom. That is what makes Islam "bogus". Faith--like virtue--cannot be compelled.

They just don't understand that, and probably never will.

Ive stated it before, I think benedict is looking to "renew" faith in Eurostan with his own blood.

He has faith that whatever happens is in Gods hands and knows that his own martyrdom at the hands of a beardie weirdie is probably what it will take to wake europe.
John Paul and the church gained greatly from the attempt on his life.
Either way hes a brave man with ball of solid brass.

#176 mama

"You are right. The mohammedan claim to Abrahamic faith is ludicrous. It is nothing more than the same old Ba'al religion."

Glad for your words. There are some piggy back rides I'm simply not accommodating ..

88 sailordude

Sailordude would like to see all religions banned. In the spirit of the American founding fathers, I'd like to see toxic ones which actively preach sedition and murder, such as Islam, banned.

The founding fathers were determined not to interfere with any peaceful religion. And although the vast majority of them firmly believed in Christianity they were not so foolish as to try to force it down anyone's throat as was done in Europe at the time (and as the Euros continue to do with their secularist religion). Their position was: we are going to set up our republic based on Christian principles. A central Christian principle is the freedom to choose to believe or not. Therefore, in America, Christianity and all other religions must be subject to public scrutiny and debate.

Islam disqualifies itself from consideration as a valid religion in America since it will not tolerate being the subject of critical debate.

How about turning the spot light on the Koran and its vile preachers of murderous hatred.

A Koran in every toilet.

Cat - you mentioned that the Jewish faith is complete. I have been wanting to ask this as I have no clue:

Since the temple was destroyed in the first century, what provision for remission of sin have faithful Jews used since then, as no blood sacrifice can be made there?

Or is this done somewhere else?

Thanks ! :)

#167 paint-right 11/26/2006 05:30PM PST
so
your very long quote is self contradictory

~~~~~

I didn't write it. It's from some lecture...

I'd be curious, what are they?

A general, massive problem with Islam (imho) is that Allah is whimsical, in a bad way. The only unifying theme is leeched from other religions, then it is watered down, messed around, and leavened with a lot of "because I said so, that's why," and "because I felt like it." Submission is key because to do anything else would be to figure out all the problems inherent in the liturgy of the religion.

#179 Pro Bush Canuck

I too, am awfully big on Free Will :) And as far as I'm concerned - the 10 Commandments were a perfectly genius discovery .. and quite specific .. Sharia law simply does not suffice as a replacement .. and even while certain bits may approximate, in the end it's a willful contrivance.

#153 cat-tikvah

I think you're making it too complicated. Of course, people believe what they believe. Believing isn't where we get into conflict. Conflict is where we get into conflict. It isn't a question of whether one group or other has the truth, it's a question of whether one group has the means and will to commit violence against the other group.

You might feel insulted if a Christian (falsely) tells you that you're going to hell for not being a Christian, but if that's the worst we have to worry about, we have indeed achieved utopia.

So let's keep our eye on the real problem of violence, and not pay so much attention to words, ok?

#182 cantrecant

Sailordude would like to see all religions banned.

Oh wow. I missed that. I didn't realize we were on that er, totalitarian, level with this particular person. I'm off to bed then.

#188 Yank

Nighty night Yank !

#175 yank in the EU

Thanks. I can see by your answer that you have pondered these questions also.

But you bascially said, God works in mysterious ways. Ever hear of Occam's Razor? Apply it to your post. Why is God so mysterious? He's God for Christ's sake. Just lay it all out.

mama:

You asked about my beliefs about scripture. My scripture is the Creation. Universal. Not transmitted through third parties. The secrets of the Creation are revealed slowly. The Creation is the Word. Simple.

#186 Daisy

I didn't mean to denigrate the 10 Commandments, which are of coure the Word of God.

I think we agree on the importance of freedom within the religious context. Freedom of conscience and will--along with the Divine spark within each of us--sets us apart from animals.

Islam treats women literally like animals, or worse.

#188 Yank in the EU

Sailordude would like to see all religions banned.

I'll take the charitable view that our nautical friend was being hyperbolic.

Mama Winger, you wrote maybe God is bad?

The way I see it God is neutral, neither good nor bad. We humans interpret God and make him/her out to be whatever through religion. An ax can be used to behead someone and is deemed bad, whereas when used for chopping wood, it is deemed good.

Throughout history, mankind has dealt with the notion of freewill, which is also the ability to create religions of all sorts. Even those who have no concept of the 3 great world religions and live in the remote jungle worship someone or something. It's innate to being human. Our need to explain why we exist.

But if you look at the beauty of this world and the beauty of the Universe as shown by the hubble telescope, I have to say God/Creator/The Absolute/etc. is glorious.

90 sailordude

God created Occam.

Jive turkey.

#190 sailordude

You asked about my beliefs about scripture. My scripture is the Creation. Universal. Not transmitted through third parties. The secrets of the Creation are revealed slowly. The Creation is the Word. Simple.

Yes, God surely does speak thru creation. Sometimes, all the time, I can't even take it in. Perhaps if you were interested, you might read the many many words about creation in the Scriptures. They might resonate with you.

Just a suggestion - thanks for answering my question sailordude.

#194 cattt

Your killing me Cattt.

#191 Pro-Bush

I didn't think you were denigrating the 10 Commandments .. most essentially, we are in real agreement concerning freedom of conscience and moral choice .. both remarkably absent from Islam. My first comment about Islam concerned my personal disqualification of Islam as an Abramaic faith .. since it did not adopt the 10 Commandments .. essential, I believe, to Judeo-Christian religious morality.

#193 So?

The way I see it God is neutral, neither good nor bad

that is one of the saddest things I have ever read, I gotta say

#187 E2M,

I find your attitude concerning differences in belief refreshing and healthy. But I am not being critical of #153 cat-tikvah.

There is no doubt that Jews have every right to be leery of Christians proselytizing in Christ's name. For a thousand years, Jews have been persecuted by people claiming to speak for Christ or the Church while being looted, burned at the stake, and a number of other hideous things.

There is no way Christ would have condoned a persecution of the Jews being He was one. In fact, he warned of just the opposite. I will parrot what Christ said but I will never consider myself worthy to speak for Him. Who will be condemned and who will be accepted is entirely His decision - and there are many claiming Christ who will be surprised as He warned.

I only ask of cat-tikvah to judge Evangelicals by their current fruits and not their historical shortcomings. The Jews have no better friends than true Christian believers. I, for one, am hoping to prove that.

And on the question of banning religions. I am certainly not going to waste any time working to ban religion. On the other hand, I would not lose any sleep if they all just went away.

#193 So?

We humans interpret God and make him/her out to be whatever through religion

that very statement makes US greater than GOD. He is defined by us, interpreted by us, invented if you will by us.

So it is actually we who are God, since we are the creator and the originator. We decide who He is - therefore in reality He is nothing but a subordinate to our whims.

who would follow such a puny measly nothing of a god?

perhaps this has been said already.
the connection between islam & Christianity is Mary,the Mother of Jesus. the Holy Father is,as John Paul II was,devoted to Mary. He understands this link spiritually. It was Mary,whose appearance to Juan Diego ended the reign of terror of the aztecs. [Link: www.sancta.org...]
it is Mary who readys us for the second coming of Her Son,Our Savior. [Link: www.medjugorje.org...]
& it is Mary who will crush the head of satan when the great battle is over.

#178 Atman 11/26/2006 05:37PM PST
#161 So?

You've been reading Dr. Hawkins. How about I, Reality and Subjectivity?

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I used to give a lot of credence to his teachings, but the more I heard and read, he seemed to contradict himself.... and basically just repeat himself. The whole calibration thing is a croc from my experience. Power Vs. Force made it sound so easy. The greatest gift to mankind. Yeah right, so where's bin laden?

He has synthesized different buddhist teachings, sprinlked them with Christianity and come up with his own version of truth.

I have the book you refer to, just read bits and pieces of it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

#199 Mama Winger

How about beyond "concept".....

#200 goodbye_natalie

I completely agree; I just think it's not helpful when some people can't seem to distinguish between somebody who makes immature remarks and someone who wants to kill you and take everything you have. That's what gets under my skin, sometimes; people (I think you know the blue-state type) who are so worried about evangelicals trying to build concentration camps that they refuse to see the real and present danger.

I understand the emotion, I just don't think it's healhy or constructive.

#201 sailordude

And on the question of banning religions. I am certainly not going to waste any time working to ban religion. On the other hand, I would not lose any sleep if they all just went away

Pretty much how I feel about atheists (LGFers and other basically good people excepted).

The difference is that atheists actually do go away, either by slaughtering their fellows in Stalinist camps, their children in the womb, or there future by failing to reproduce at all (cf 2006 Europe).

A self-annihilating ideology. Wonder what the evolutionary biologists would make of that?

#203 Lobosan

I'm not sure I understand the link between Mary, the mother of Christ, and islam. Can you say more about that?

#206 Earth2moonbat

(I think you know the blue-state type) who are so worried about evangelicals trying to build concentration camps that they refuse to see the real and present danger.

It seems to me that many of those "blue state types" (to the extent they are actual leftists and not just liberal-minded) ARE the real and present danger.

Leftists in America or Canada in 2006 are in essence no different than leftists in Russia in 1948, China in 1959, Cambodia in 1977 or Cuba today. Left to their own devices the atheist Left will ALWAYS produce another Hell on Earth.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Ted Rall is more evil than Osama bin Laden in the greater scheme of things.

I got a lot out of this discussion.

Before, I tended to lump all religion in one pile. Some people accused me of being a moral relativist. But when religion is looked at through the prism of history, how can you say that Christianity is not guilty of the same crimes as Islam?

Tonight, I was convinced that Islam is not a religion, and therefore, is not to be compared to other religions.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

#210 sailordude

how can you say that Christianity is not guilty of the same crimes as Islam?

I can say that. I will say that. And if you cannot see the clear evidence in the world around you, then this discussion is rather pointless,.

#210 sailordude

No need to apologize. Most Christians are more than happy to talk about matters of faith without getting confrontational. Wouldn't try that in Riyadh though...

#128 sailordude

The answer to your questions is simple. Read the bible and then ask some questions based on what you read. Don't judge a book before you have read it from cover to cover.

Would you do that if you were a reviewer?

#204 So?

I'm not sure about the calibration thing either. Like you, I look for the contradictions in a teaching. For me, I can deal with paradox but not contradiction in the search for truth.

I asked Mama Winger about God being beyond concept because I see this Mystery as being beyond mind. More intrinsic and immanent. If that makes sense.

202

Jesus said: "Follow my teachings and you will do greater things than I."

Yes Mama Winger we are God. WE have lost our way, that's all. And so we play in this illusion called life. Only when you reach a level of consciousness as was attained by Buddha and Jesus and a few other great mystics you will realize the beauty, sacredness of life and the Truth.

If you believe everything in the bible , old & new testament to be the absolute truth; first realize, all these books were written by men. Copied, generation after generation by scribes, who often put in their own spin/ interpretations on things.

And frankly my dear, God does not need you or I to care whether he exists or not. "I am the Alpha & Omega" God was, is and will always be... while we blog away until our fingers turn to dust.

Scooby doo!

#215 So?

Yes Mama Winger we are God. WE have lost our way, that's all

I am not God, and I have the good sense to know it.

A related subject .. an alternative headline:

"Moonbats Wearing Moonhats "

Any others?

#163 paint-right
i have a question or two.
Do jews believe in an afterlife?

Also do you consider the entire Old Testament (Esther, Ruth, Psalms, Joel Hosea etc,) as scripture or is it just the first five books?

First of all, while I'm a fairly knowledgeable Jew, I'm still a layperson. Second, I would never presume to speak for, or represent, all Jews or all of Judaism.

But from what I've learned and know, regarding the afterlife, yes, Jews absolutely believe that there is one. The details are simply not as doctrinaire. The soul is immortal. There is a "world to come". As I said, there isn't the concept of hell or eternal damnation.

It's just that the primary emphasis is on this life, this world, and how we, as partners with God, conduct ourselves.

I'm not sure what you mean by scripture regarding the other books of the Bible.

The first five (Torah) are divine revelation. Orthodox belief is that these books are the verbatim word of God as given to Moses. On the Reform/Reconstructionist end of the spectrum, there is room to believe that they are divinely inspired but were written by human beings.

Like I said, I'm not the definitive authority. But thanks for asking.

#211 mama

Relax. I understand that Christianity is reformed. And has been since when? Luther? 16th century?

Surely, you have heard of the Crusades and understand that modern day Islam uses them to justify their present actions?

#214 Atman

I asked Mama Winger about God being beyond concept because I see this Mystery as being beyond mind. More intrinsic and immanent. If that makes sense.

Oh - I'm sorry! I mis-understood your comment. (if I were God that wouldn't have happened)

Yes, I think there are things we know about God, in regrd to His nature and his attributes, His purposes and His plans. Then there is a whole 'nuther thing going on that we as finite beings cannot grasp. So yes, there are parts of God that are beyond concept.

#219 Sailordude

I can't do this with you anymore tonight, as I believe you are not posting in good faith. I may be wrong. Perhaps we could talk again another day?

#210 sailordude

Tonight, I was convinced that Islam is not a religion, and therefore, is not to be compared to other religions.

That's one way of resolving it. But that's just semantics. Whether or not it qualifies as a religion is beside the point; the point is that there is a very significant and well funded group within them who are as dangerous as any group in human history, and the majority doesn't see too motivated to repudiate them, or even report suspicious activity.

So I don't care if you call them a religion, a cult, and idiology, or a gang. What matters is that they're plotting major attrocities, and passive resistance isn't going to prevent another 9/11 scale attack. Hunting them down and killing them is the only thing that's going to deal with it in the short term. In the long term, I don't know what's going to happen.

Someday Istanbul will properly be called Constantinople.

#208 mama winger 11/26/2006

#203 Lobosan

"I'm not sure I understand the link between Mary, the mother of Christ, and islam. Can you say more about that?"

I am sorry, it takes me forever to respond.

Mary is also venerated in islam...although it is rarely mentioned...except when the wolves come in sheep's clothing to convert Christians...of whom i know a few. many moslems go to Fatima to honor her along side Catholics...

I was going to add this: Jesus loves His Mother w/ a depth we cannot fathom...to LOVE the Lord is to Honor His Mother as He does. God the Father sent Mary 1st, to give Jesus His physical nature,to rear Him & finally,to make the Way of the Cross w/Him. All evil fears Mary,She is the Temple which housed the Messiah. "the Rosary is the weapon." St.Pio
[Link: www.tldm.org...]

this is more than a battle of civilizations,
it is a battle of principalities & must be also,engaged as such.

#221 mama winger

I don't think sailordude is doing what you think he's doing. I think he's agreeing with you, in a roundabout way. Go back and read a little more carefully, ok?

Atman, help me out here! Tell Mama Winger she is God and that she should be cool with that.

We are all a part of God, otherwise we wouldn't be here...breathing.

Anyway, don't have the energy to go into it all at the moment.
Islam sucks! That's all I know... no prophet goes around chopping off peoples' heads.

Until the next Turkish demonstration.... be good.

#221 mama

Sure.

Evidence that
Mohammed was in Turkey!

#218 cat-tikvah

But from what I've learned and know, regarding the afterlife, yes, Jews absolutely believe that there is one. The details are simply not as doctrinaire. The soul is immortal. There is a "world to come". As I said, there isn't the concept of hell or eternal damnation.

Perhaps a clearer way to explain that:

Muslim heaven: Women and wine.

Christian heaven: In the clouds playing harps.

Jewish heaven: Too abstract to describe.

In other words, there's a continuum between the indescribable Jewish concept, and the corporeal islamic concept, with the Christian concept somewhere in between.

#225 E2m

I know, I'm just weary of fighting the Crusades as a means of equivocating Christianity with Islam.

#227 sailordude

No offense , buddy. I'm just kind of pooped out :)

#220 Mama Winger

I don't want to speak for So? I feel that he was expressing non-duality when he spoke earlier.

It is found in Buddhist writings.

This whole Mohammed thing is not clear to me. Can you draw me a picture?

210 sailordude

A review of the world past and present shows us that Christianity is far superior to Islam. First, please note that if we're going to base the argument on genocides through the ages, neither religion wins - atheism does.

Anyway, I'll mention one reason that shows that by application, Christianity is superior. Christianity, due in no small part to its Judean roots, made the modern, western democratic republic, with all men created equal, possible. Islam makes such a form of government very VERY difficult to create and maintain.

With all due respect, you apologize "if you offended anyone." There are two ways to look at this. Either you are feckless in your haste to write your comments or you are disingenuous in your apology. IMHO.

#184 so

Examoles of self contradictions in the article you mentioned:

"If you know just a few things really well, there’s not much more you really need." ( I DISAGREE AND WHAT THINGS?MAKES A DIFFERENCE)

"The Field is invisible, all encompassing, without space and time, forever and always present, the infinite. The human mind cannot conceive it. It is exquisitely gentle and powerful. The field is infinitely powerful, like a giant electromagnetic field with no ending. The field is so powerful that it includes all potentialities. Within the field, potentiality is actualized by intention. Karma is innate potentiality. If you continuously hold a thought, it will become happening. Otherwise no one would become enlightened."
( WHO SAYS? WHAT IMPIRICAL EVIDENCE IS THERE FOR ANY OF THIS NEW AGE GOBBLEDYGOOK?)

"The same thing can be true in one context and untrue in another context.' (ERR, UH, WHAT? TRUTH IS TRUE BY DEFINITION!)

"The perpetrator-victim model is res interna projected onto society. There is no perpetrator, no victim in reality." ( TELL THAT TO MURDER, RAPE VICTIMS)

I COULD GO ON, BUT IT SOUNDS VERY ELITIST AND COMPLETELY ARBITRARY AND MADE UP, BY SOMEONE WHO WANT S THERE TO BE NO MORAL RULES, I'LL WAGER!)

#232 LaMano

Heh. On that note, I've Tivo'd a football game, so adios all.

#220 Mama Winger

Similar to John 10:30.

LA mano LOLOLOLOL!

Let's settle this "crusades" thing for once and for all: If there was never islam, there never would have been crusades.

End of story.

#233 Cattt

"Either you are feckless in your haste to write your comments or you are disingenuous in your apology. IMHO."

He was disingenuous. There was no apology. He only claimed he now understood Islam was not a religion and therefore could not be condemned (as religions ought to be condemned). And no comments from the sailor-dude upon the countless murders of innocents by Godless Communists (or Islamist totalitarians) .. he must be swabbing the deck - or something ..

#238 e2m

Exactly. Charles Martel repelled Muslims in Poitiers, France nearly 300 years before the First Crusade.

Pity the French have nobody like him.

So? wrote:

We are all a part of God, otherwise we wouldn't be here...breathing.

Close, but precisely backwards. God's being sustains all being and is present to it, but is not "part" of it, nor are we "part" of God. Here is Aquinas, being his usual clear-headed self:

Things are not distinguished from one another in so far as they all have being, because in this they all agree.

If therefore things do differ from one another, either 'being' itself must be specified by certain added differentias, so that different things have a different specific being; or things must differ in this that 'being' itself attaches to specifically different natures.

The first alternative is impossible, because no addition can be made to 'being,' in the way that differentia is added to genus, as has been said (Chap. XXV, n. 4).

It remains therefore that things differ in that they have different natures, to which 'being' accrues differently.

But the divine being is not something accessory to any nature, but is the very nature or essence of God (Chap. XXII). If therefore the divine being were the formal and abstract being of all things, all things would have to be absolutely one.

And they are quite obviously not absolutely one. Aquinas continues:

What has led men into this error is a piece of faulty reasoning. For, seeing that what is common to many is specialised and individualised by addition, they reckoned that the divine being, to which no addition is made, was not any individual being, but was the general being of all things

There is a very nice translation of his very readable Summa contra gentiles here.

Thanks, Godfrey , for finding and quoting that,

I'm a fraid So? left

#240 aaron's rantblog

And most people don't realize how far North Pointers is. The had most of the country.

Soon they'll have all of it.

Impetuous, like his post. I like impetuous people as long as they're not in positions of power. :-)

earth2

Let's not be 100% gloomy. Iron Fist and Stringart posted links to some encouraging signs today.

Yes, Folks So? has left the stadium...

#245 godfrey

There are good pragmatic reasons for a government to control that. When you get to the point that a good percentage of the population becomes indistinguishable from one another, it makes law enforcement difficult. I don't think we've even begun to see some of the shell games that can be played when you have everyone in head-to-toe uniforms.

..........and so will I.

So-long All.

Odd that Muslims would claim Jesus was a Prophet of Islam. Jesus' message is totally contradictory to Islam. Jesus said love your enemy. Islam tells Muslims to smite the infidel's head. Some Prophet.

That Muslims try to disfigure Jesus into a prophet of Islam is insulting to me. If Jesus were to appear today in Turkey and spoke the exact same message he did in the Gospels, he would not be revered as a Prophet. No, he would end up in prison for "insulting Turkishness".

Thanks, this helps. [Link: www.jwz.org...]

So I’m getting dizzy ready all the comments, and most of them are very articulate and thought provoking. I’d just like to put in another 2 cents, if anybody cares.

I believe in an Almighty that understands how simple and stupid most of us are. After all He made us. He allowed some men in history to write down some words. He didn’t ever tell us that everything that was written down was all there was for us to know, He simply let us know that the basic truths were sufficient. You won’t find any of them in the Koran or Hadith.

We are treated to a barrage of religious leaders who would interpret His words for us, that is for those of us who are spiritually unable to figure it out for ourselves. When I was in High School hundreds of years ago, my Roman Catholic friends moaned that they couldn’t eat a hamburger for lunch in the cafeteria on Friday because it “was against their religion”. My Muslim friends cannot enjoy a taste of a nice Riesling wine, because it “is against their religion”. My Jewish neighbors wouldn’t touch the bacon/cheese appetizers I prepare because….you guessed it.

Does the Almighty really care anymore (or ever really did) that much about the food that he blessed us with for sustenance that by eating it or not eating it carries that much importance? Do the costumes that the “pious, devout, and holy” wear because of their religion really matter to the Almighty? Do the days of the week, month or year really matter to the Almighty who put all the days and nights into motion? Are there really places on earth, the entire earth that the Almighty created, more holy or important than others? If anyone wants “holy”, just come by my place any day of the week; the little critters, wild and domesticated, manage quite nicely, the flowers bloom, the fruits grow just as He planned, and nobody here entertains any personal, political, religious or family conflict and inflicted drama. Must be the Holy Land.

It is not complex. It is not complicated. Actually, it is quite simple. That is because we have been created in His image. Our spirits know. As much as we would deny the right and wrong part for our own self-indulgence, we know. The scary part occurs when some religion would have us indulge our baser, wrongful ways and pass it off as “holy”. Or some would have us believe that the outward appearance shown to our fellow man would categorize us as “better”.

The “religious” amongst us do have a sense of a Greater Spirit and dimensions beyond. But the sad part is that, unlike the atheists who have none of that, some of the religious think they can trick the Almighty into believing that their show of superficial rites, observances, costumes, and rituals make them worthy when their actions speak otherwise. Think Islam. Think hypocrites.

Nothing could be more blasphemous than thinking the Almighty is stupid. Even Allah isn’t stupid; he’s just not the Almighty. Religions make the whole process complicated, when actually it is rather simple. Read the words in the Ten Commandments, and if that isn’t enough, read the words Jesus spoke to compliment the whole process. Stay away from what Mohammed suggested.

251 grandma

Simple and beautiful. You have great wisdom.

#251 grandma,
I am a long time Christian, and I basically believe what you wrote.
Does the Creator of the universe take roll call at church? I have friends that believe He does.
God is a big God. You have to tell him to leave you alone and get out of your life to go to hell.
I used to have a more narrow view of Christianity, but Jesus came to set us free.
Islam is a religion of supression, hatred, just a religion of "NO". The religion of a land pirate.

Female Unibrows Unite!

I hope Europeans have enough common sense not to let Turkey in the EU.

I don't think Jesus would approve of head-chopping and stoning. He would not have been too keen on flying planes into buildings either, IMO.

Now little mo on the other hand might have smiled on all this murder.

Calling Jesus an Islamic prophet is quite a smear, isn't it?

This is one of the more instructive articles I have read in a while. Look at what people in Turkey are quoted as saying:

He said Roman Catholic cardinals chose this Pope last year "because he is against Islam and (they) are concerned Islam is spreading in Europe."

AS if...

"Muslims don't want the Pope in their lands. Look at the suffering which they spread in Palestine, Iraq and Chechnya. I link this to Christianity,"

Really - I link it to Islam.

Youths wearing headbands with Islamic slogans, beating drums and waving red-and-white Turkish flags chanted "Allahu Akbar" (God is greatest) and "Pope don't come"

What asshats. I think it would be better if Muslums left the US. Turn about is fair play afterall.

187 Earth2moonbat

Conflict is where we get into conflict. It isn't a question of whether one group or other has the truth, it's a question of whether one group has the means and will to commit violence against the other group.

Well put Earth!

In fact, Pope Bennedict was attempting to convey the same simple message of "God = Reason" that grandma did so eloquently in 251 when he used a poor choice of words and encited a global confrontation instead. Muslims have used the alleged "insult" as a smokescreen to cloud the original point he made that God is reasonable. Muslims believe that Allah is not bounded by reason.

Momma

If you're still here.......I have a question for you...

One thing that I have never been able to rationalize with Christianity (the only religion I know enough about to try to rationalize anything with) is all the violence that has been done in the name of religion (in general - no particular religion in mind) throughout history. It seems to me if God is love like I have been taught, something is not happening. What is it?

#243 e2m

They have more than they had. And they NEVER had hundreds of thousands of occupiers in Britain, either.

Not enough soccer fans to expel them.

Stick a fork in Europe.

#260 Thor-Zone

One thing that I have never been able to rationalize with Christianity (the only religion I know enough about to try to rationalize anything with) is all the violence that has been done in the name of religion (in general - no particular religion in mind) throughout history. It seems to me if God is love like I have been taught, something is not happening. What is it

Do you have children? Or have you ever been a child yourself? :)

No matter how good and kind and loving the parent might be, no matter how concerned for her child's welfare, how deeply cherished that child is, at some point that child is going to disobey and do something bad.

Say it is hitting another child on the playground for no reason. The child's parents will be held responsible if an injury occurs. Why? Because that child bears the name of, and belongs to the family of her parents.

She is in the family who has raised her to be loving and kind, but she fails to do that. She has excercised her own free will, and has disobeyed what she knows to be good and true.

In the same way, people who bear the name of Christian have been raised to know what is good and true , and have been called by a loving God to live that out. Because of free will, they fail. But they still bear the name of Christian.

Is that the fault of the faith, or of the individual?

Well, I was also going to compliment grandma on her post @#251, but Mich-again, you said it for me.
I always enjoy these exchanges here and over at Gagdad Bob's blog, One Cosmos.
My own set of beliefs was once very much along the same lines as sailordude's, which is to say I had a belief in God, but I held on to that adolescent antipathy toward religion, and I couldn't stand sanctimonious teachy-preachy religious people. In short I had a bad case of the Jesus Willies.
But I learned to pray. Furthermore, I learned to swallow that first bitter dose of humility and pray for knowlege of God's will- not for goodies, or favors. Slowly. Very slowly, and with much difficulty, and struggle I am coming to faith. You hear it said that God works in mysterious ways. I've also heard it said that God walks in shoeleather, meaning he uses us ordinary mortals to do his work here on this plane. After 9/11 I turned to the only person I trusted to make sense of what had happened. That was Dennis Prager, the radio host. On Prager's show I heard about LGF. Here, on LGF, two people on this board posted things that resonated with me. One was Gagdad Bob, the other was BabbaZee. I listened to what they had to say. Before I knew it I found an insatiable appetite for the Religious Question. I read Gagdad's book. I exchanged e-mails with BabbaZee. I began reading the Bible. I have come to believe that God really did enter the stream of time and human consciousness in the person of Jesus to give us the message. He cares. We count. Our lives here have meaning and purpose in the grand scheme of Creation. Our lives here do not end with the destruction of the flesh. Does that make me religious? Does that make me a Christian? I don't know. Some would say yes, and others would say no. But it's up to God to determine.
The other night I had a dream. There was a big crowd of people demonstrating against Israel. I walked into the middle of the group, and was assaulted by some thug who was head and shoulders bigger than me. I reached up and tried to grab his shirt. "Who are you, anyway?", he laughed. In the dream I answered, "I'm a Christian who loves Israel and the Jewish people." He let me go. I knew then that he couldn't hurt me.

JWM

Man... I must be slipping. Nobody commented on

Mohammed was in Turkey!

260 Thor-Zone

..all the violence that has been done in the name of religion..

Good point. Some have even gone so far to say said the world would be a better place if there were no religions at all. After all, throughout history so many untold millions have died over wars or violence rooted in religion. But was it really a religion or just humans using religion to justify their own aims?

I think the message of Jesus is true. Love God with all your heart and might and love your neighbor like yourself. I doubt any war or violence had that as the underlying theme.

Thanks Momma....What an elegant post. Thank you for writing it. I actually never thought of it in that light.

Yes I was a child and I have a daughter (all grown up now), so I get the gest of what you are saying.

#263 jwm

The other night I had a dream. There was a big crowd of people demonstrating against Israel. I walked into the middle of the group, and was assaulted by some thug who was head and shoulders bigger than me. I reached up and tried to grab his shirt. "Who are you, anyway?", he laughed. In the dream I answered, "I'm a Christian who loves Israel and the Jewish people." He let me go. I knew then that he couldn't hurt me.

JWM

I just want to jump through the screen and hug you.

It does begin with humbling, doesn't it? I guess that's the hardest part, coming to grips with the knowledge that we are not enough. Then looking for the answer to "Who is?"

And then finding out that the One who knows you best, loves you most.

#266 Thor-Zone

I hope that helps in some small way. I think Jesus had it right when He tried to explain things in parables. Everyday stories that people can relate to.

264 aaron's rantblog

Man... I must be slipping. Nobody commented on

That is because it did not need a comment.

#265 mich-again

I think the message of Jesus is true. Love God with all your heart and might and love your neighbor like yourself.

If people actually practiced this important part of most religions....War would not be such a common event.

Momma - I am a simple guy....simple explainations work best with me. Thanks again! You made a difference for me today.

#271 Thor

I am simple too - simple minded, mostly . LOL!

It was very nice talking with you. Goodnight!

I think the message of Jesus is true.

And the message of Jesus INCLUDES the Coming of 'One like unto the Son of Man', Whose coming May 23, 1844 vindicated my Lord Jesus' promises in Matt 24:14, Luke 21:24 and Matt 24:15

In fact, I KNOW the Message of Jesus is true, because the Glory of God says it is!