Just want to say a prayer for all caught in this travesty. God Bless them all.

..footballfan

Reposting ~

Ovoid..

Hope you're okay.

Ginn

I sincerely hope we have seen the last of the deaths from this, and also that people refrain from assigning any sort of blame until the investigating engineers have finished their investigation.

I'll see what the morning brings.

orange

I can't believe the way that thing came down. It was demolished.Completely destroyed.
What could cause that?

re: #6 NeoKong

Weight + gravity.

NeoKong (#6),

Gravity.

God bless all those affected by this.

Who needs wash-board tummies?

Hi Geepers!

Well, its close to knock off time and Im about to head off, but it doesnt bode well if there remains 50 cars submerged in the river.

My thoughts and prayers are with all those involved.

We do know, apparently, that for the second time in history, fire did not melt steel.

Right, Rosie?

Yeah, I sound rather juvenile.

Hi Mandy, Hi Dom

re: #13 Holden McGroyn

We do know, apparently, that for the second time in history, fire did not melt steel.

Right, Rosie?

Too bad Rosie doesn't have her own "Ask Rosie" newspaper column.

Here's a slide show of pics provided to local TV station KSTP by eyewitnesses.

re: #10 MandyManners

I do. Mine's as fluffy as a pillow!

How strong is the Mississippi river current at that point?

Ugh, local media found someone who says that it'll take two YEARS to rebuild after saying that local govt cuts in DoT would lead to infrastructure problems. I know nothing about construction, but surely I-10 in Santa Monica after the 1989 Northridge earthquake is an example of what could be done. What we can do.

But onto more pleasant thoughts: people here got into the water to help. They got onto the bridges to help. Everywhere, people helped. People over and over again rise to the occasion. Never forget that normal people can do everything we need in a disaster. Of course, lots of them have actual military training, which helps them keep their wits about them.

re: #21 pork rinds for allah

Based on?

I was there, I saw it.
Charles, the picture you show is not the full area of the collapse, it goes a full inch (it starts off the image you're showing)

#17 Noam

Maybe I'm missing something (wouldn't be unusual) but the site you linked to requires a sign in and password. Is that right? Or is it my browser (Opera)?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I lugged this post from the lower thread. This guy gives a good explanation of what might of occurred.

re: #19 StarsandStripesForever

nearly impossible to say accurately without a cross-section at that exact point. same goes for all running water. i'll do some searching and see what i come up with.

re: #26 bosforus

thanks.

re: #17 Noam Sayin'

The picture
[Link: www.slide.com...]

This is the key photo, notice the concrete support angled toward the camera, and the steel has been pulled away.

As I consider this, I am more worried that this was a "wet run." (no pun intended). I would not be surprised to see more bridges "spontaneously" collapse in the next 6-12 months.

Regarding blame - there is no way in hell this can be attributed to highway repair budget cuts. The bridge had been given a clean bill of health twice in the past 2 years, and was being actively maintained. If anything, this speaks to our need for better technology to assess the true structural condition of bridges.

And a minor point for the non-MN lizards - it's I-35W (or just 35W for us locals), not I-35. The other half is 35E and runs thru St. Paul. They split/join north and south of the cities. I-35 does the same thing thru Dallas/Ft. Worth.

re: #19 StarsandStripesForever

How strong is the Mississippi river current at that point?

Pretty strong, but deep enough to allow barge traffic. That being said, they're worried about debris affecting downstream bridges.

In a way I'm surprised someone labeled it recovery, usually it's rescue for the first 24 hours..I mean people have stayed under concrete for much longer and been rescued..so if this is labeled recovery it's due to them knowing they for a fact got ALL the survivors out or it's the media pundits assuming.

I admit I haven't been following the news..just this blog for this. What can I say, I get tired of the news and literally could not BEAR to turn it on tonight due to this..and prefer news from LGF most of the time hehe.

re: #28 jrhelgeson

re: #17 Noam Sayin'

This is the key photo, notice the concrete support angled toward the camera, and the steel has been pulled away.

May have been the result of the collapse itself. That part of the bridge is reported to have collapsed after the steel arch section collapsed.

re: #28 pork rinds for allah

To which comment do you refer?

re: #24 Dublin(CA)Dude

#17 Noam

Maybe I'm missing something (wouldn't be unusual) but the site you linked to requires a sign in and password. Is that right? Or is it my browser (Opera)?

Try it from here, Dub.

fox news...

ex fbi agent about to go on to say, to early to say NOT terrorism...

Urg. I have been busy this evening and thought I'd just check my e-mail before I head for bed.

What a terrible way to end the day.

Ginn (#24),

Hey Ginn.

Thanks for the link. Good info there.

#35 Noam

From where?

fox is back...

re: #31 Noam Sayin'

I'm concerned how the river current affects rescue operations to recover victims.

There are some definite downsides to open registration.

Who are these people?

re: #17 Noam Sayin'

Those are the best pics I've seen on the subject.

re: #35 Noam Sayin'

Oops. Might help if I provided a link.

Cmon, folks - let's not jump to any conclusions here. We need to wait for the analysis as to what happened. Regardless of how well we engineer things - there are going to be accidents. If we find out that something nefarious was involved, we will all have time to talk about it. Don't fall into the tin-hat wearing crowd - wait until we hear the real reason before we speculate. We are better than that...

re: #40 StarsandStripesForever

The Mississippi R is much calmer up there.

#44 Noam

Got it, thanks!

It's just awful. I dread seeing liberal Democrats try to blame this on Bush and Pawlenty tomorrow.

re: #41 StarsandStripesForever

re: #31 Noam Sayin'

I'm concerned how the river current affects rescue operations to recover victims.

They've done this kind of recovery before. Just several years ago they plucked a couple off a boat that was hung up on the dam just 1/4 mile upstream.

This was definitely a structural disaster, IMO. I cannot see this being terrorism.

I have so much information but I still can't think clearly. I didn't get home till dark and I just atere: #31 Noam Sayin'

The current is slow, very slow. In the google image of the front page, You can see the whitecaps to the left of the bridge of the lock just upstream.

My husband was saying something about the harmonics of the bridge being off, and it didn't sound right to some people. Sounds like the bridge was sick.

re: #49 Noam Sayin'

That's good.

re: #29 jwbaumann

And a minor point for the non-MN lizards - it's I-35W (or just 35W for us locals), not I-35. The other half is 35E and runs thru St. Paul. They split/join north and south of the cities. I-35 does the same thing thru Dallas/Ft. Worth.

Unfortunately for those who want to use the I-35E there are a couple of problems. First the the speed limit on the section between I-94 and the Mississippi River crossing is 45 MPH. The second problem is that there is a weight restriction that prevents commercial truckers from using that section.

Blame the Nimby's. Logic would dictate that the restrictions be relaxed for the necessity, but I'm the narcissistic assholes will object loudly as usual.

re: #41 really grumpy big dog Johnson

There are some definite downsides to open registration.

Who are these people?

Who are you?

:D

NOT TERRORISM

Numerous on-scene witnesses and survivors reported a "jackhammer" effect just before the bridge fell. It is frequently the case that when a bridge or other supporting structure fails due to a structural defect, it wobbles, shakes, or moves violently. The "jackhammer" effect of the bridge shaking up and down violently just before the collapse is consistent with a structural defect.

It would be theoretically possible that sabotage led to the collapse, but, let's face it, that' would be quite an outlandish theory considering the completely lack of evidence of any sabotage with regard to this bridge.

If it was a structural defect, and wasn't sabotage, that means it was an accident.

re: #29 pork rinds for allah

Have a read through this link and then tell us what you think.

God does this suck. How in the hell does a bridge just go down like this? I mean, you'd think there would be some signs, like notice some sagging or something. This is strange.

I'm going to go out on a limb here..

And blame the bridge...

Such a tragedy. The lesson here should be a nationwide effort to inspect, maintain and repair our infrastructure before things like this happen again.

Chen...

Read post 24.

re: #23 Dublin(CA)Dude

I am on IE7, and had no problem..no sign in, etc., and I can view the photos...

re: #53 The Other Les

PIMF!

I'm sure the narcissistic...

You know, it IS too early to RULE out terrorism. GOOD grief people it's only been HOURS.

Do NOT expect a full report for a week or a month even.

How the HELL can you rule stuff out already? You can't! So there is nothing wrong with terrorism being ON the list of things to check off that it isn't. TO decry it at this point is really premature..seriously.

All options are on the table till they are proven to be taken off...and no pundit atm or newstation knows the answers...you don't get them instantly in real world.

re: #36 Bob's Kid

How are you doing?

Near zero tolerance begins now.

re: #57 ChenZhen

Hey, man. I know I've tossed a few rocks at you on this blog, but I'm glad you're safe.

re: #31 Highrise
I have been listening live and the change was announced by the rescue chief. As was the suspension of the river search...

re: #57 ChenZhen

I want to know about this inspector. Why was this missed?

re: #64 NY Nana

re: #36 Bob's Kid

How are you doing?

Sick to my stomach from this news, but other than that doin' fine. Surgery on the 13th, so looking forward to getting that over with.

Yes, it's too early to rule out terrorism.

But it's extremely unlikely in this case, and I'll be very surprised if evidence turns up.

Someone does not suffer fools gladly(anymore).

re: #65 song_and_dance_man

Make a small donation here. I did.

eek! i think we're now too nervous to post! =)

seriously, thanks for keeping things tight around here during a tragedy, charles.

re: #56 Noam Sayin'

AARRGGHH! Next - It was caused by Global Warming due to the hot-to-cold temperature change...
I, for one, will wait to see what the structural engineers have to say. Thankfully, accidents usually lead to better designs and safer products. Sucks that terrible things have to happen to make things better - but thats the way it usually works. Let's concentrate on prayers for the families of those injured or killed by this horrible tragedy...

Somebody please point out to me the last example of "stealth" terrorism.

For the life of me, I can't remember the last such incident. I guess I must be losing it.

re: #69 Sharmuta
Will be a crew of inspectors. One will be in charge, though.

re: #63 Highrise

You know, it IS too early to RULE out terrorism. GOOD grief people it's only been HOURS.

You are right it could be terrorism. The only problem is that it goes completely against their MO. It is possible, but very unlikely that this was an act of sabotage terrorism.

re: #47 RepJ

It's just awful. I dread seeing liberal Democrats try to blame this on Bush and Pawlenty tomorrow.

Tomorrow nothin'. Go to PuffHo and read the comments if you can stomach it. Be forewarned though. Make sure to scroll down to where some jagoff is linking to several jihadpr0n, or the guy who says we're spending 50% of our budget on the war killing hundreds of thousands, or the one who claims we lose more to botched police raids than in 9/11.

re: #72 Charles

Yes, it's too early to rule out terrorism.

But it's extremely unlikely in this case, and I'll be very surprised if evidence turns up.

Yup I do agree with your take. My response is directed to those jumping on people that even merely make a suggestion that it be on the list of things to even consider.

I guess my first responder training and my previous experience in auditing/engineering investigating is kicking in...I don't rule a thing out but I also do not promote a single thing it MUST be until the report is in.

Those photos, from the eyewitnesses, gives the real scale of the damage.

I will keep an open mind, but I'd rather wait until the investigation is over. More than likely, structural fatigue is the probable cause. But I'm not going to be an advocate of this idea and turn into an MSM talking head. I'll keep my own counsel and just hope people get rescued

re: #67 Noam Sayin'

re: #57 ChenZhen

Hey, man. I know I've tossed a few rocks at you on this blog, but I'm glad you're safe.

I'll ditto you on that one.

It is probably a lot of things that added up to trouble. The bridge was a single span, over 480 feet, (and someone commented on a lower thread that they don't make those any more).

It was concrete and MN is known for its temperature extremes. Combine that with moisture and MN is very hard on concrete. Also, it has been very hot there recently and 35W is prone to buckling cement in the heat.

Add the constant movement of the river and pressure on and behind the pilings and scour.

There are these things going on and so many other possibilities, many as yet unknown. Each probably played a part and they all came together with tragic results.

re: #63 Highrise

You know, it IS too early to RULE out terrorism. GOOD grief people it's only been HOURS.

I agree!

Fox still reporting that over 50 cars are in the river beneath the bridge. That can only mean the toll will go much higher in the morning. Recovery efforts will be tough, fuel, etc. leaking into the water, dangerous for scuba divers to go into. Just awful, but so many examples of people rushing to help others, even those in the collapse helping others get out. Good people there in the Twin Cities.

re: #77 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Some plane disasters are suspect. This is not, in my opinion

What's the weather like up there tonight?
I heard it was raining earlier.

re: #74 blue_like_jazz

eek! i think we're now too nervous to post! =)

seriously, thanks for keeping things tight around here during a tragedy, charles.

Too nervous to post?

/looks over shoulder

re: #66 song_and_dance_man

They’re not talking about “rescue” any more. It’s “recovery” now.

True. But I always leave room for miracles from God!
:) Prayers go out to those affected by this tragedy.

I could get used to being a drill sergeant. Who knew?

OT
When I was a young teenager, I babysat in an apartment building which was where the east end of the bridge was later built...

On Topic: fire chief says they won't be able to see for sure, the accurate number of vehicles in the water, until daybreak. And, apparently, the investigation is looming to be a larger and larger job...

re: #47 RepJ

It's just awful. I dread seeing liberal Democrats try to blame this on Bush and Pawlenty tomorrow.

Tomorrow nothin'. Go to PuffHo and read the comments if you can stomach it. Be forewarned though. Make sure to scroll down to where some jagoff is linking to several jihadpr0n, or the guy who says we're spending 50% of our budget on the war killing hundreds of thousands, or the one who claims we lose more to botched police raids than in 9/11.

re: #92 Charles

I could get used to being a drill sergeant. Who knew?

lol

I'm just catching up with all the posts and comments. This is so terrible - having been thru Katrina/Rita and thus on the recieving end of the thoughts and prayers of the nation, time for me to offer my prayers for those affected by this awful, awful thing.

re: #56 indythinker

If it was a structural defect, and wasn't sabotage, that means it was an accident.

I agree with you it was most likely an accident. Probably just the right combination of things all at once - a structural defect, combined with the maintenance work going on, combined with heavy traffic on the bridge . . .

re: #94 bikermailman

re: #47 RepJ

It's just awful. I dread seeing liberal Democrats try to blame this on Bush and Pawlenty tomorrow.

Tomorrow nothin'. Go to PuffHo and read the comments if you can stomach it. Be forewarned though. Make sure to scroll down to where some jagoff is linking to several jihadpr0n, or the guy who says we're spending 50% of our budget on the war killing hundreds of thousands, or the one who claims we lose more to botched police raids than in 9/11.

Man, those people are really foul-mouthed.

Just saw Bridge Video on Thai TV news...

Things like this DO happen, and make world news, where rational people live...

re: #89 mean Gene

Loverly cool...for me... ): --feel kind of strange being able to enjoy the simple pleasures of life...

re: #80 lrsshadow

I agree and I repeat again, my comment is for those who are jumping down the throats of ANYONE who is even putting terrorism on the list to think about.

You people have got to understand a few things.

I'm sorry if what I post is viewed as talking down to people..please do not view it that way. I've sat in some very interesting boardrooms to say the least.

I have an engineering back ground, first responder background, and also an audit/investigative background for what it's worth..and it takes awhile to come out with a full report and you never rule a THING out until you can. That is how you are trained and that is how it is before the final report is put together.

When it comes to Engineers, they typically are very forthright honest people...sometimes too honest so companies often have another layer to buffer the message to the public or customer hehe.

So when I see an actual engineering report in a few weeks, then I will have a little more interest in what the causation is. I keep ALL options on the table..though..period.

re: #51 RepJ

My husband was saying something about the harmonics of the bridge being off, and it didn't sound right to some people. Sounds like the bridge was sick.

He's harkening back to the Tacoma Narrows Bridge; harmonic collapse from extreme winds/swaying early on. This sounds like it only compares in that there were out-of-plane fatigue cracks, ~ signs of twisting.

re: #92 Charles

I could get used to being a drill sergeant. Who knew?

Naw. You'd have to cut your hair.

Time for bed. My first instinct was that this was terrorism, but hopefully that was a wrong assumption. What a strange post-911 world we live in.

re: #87 Dublin(CA)Dude

Okay...remember that thought, next time Ellison, or the cab drivers, etc., get discussed here... :)

re: #59 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Such a tragedy. The lesson here should be a nationwide effort to inspect, maintain and repair our infrastructure before things like this happen again.

The ugly little secret is, that the powers that be have known for 20 years or so that the nation's infrastructure is decaying, and it would take literally trillions of dollars to bring it ALL up to snuff. Bridges, roads, pipelines, etc. As a commenter over on HA noted earlier, since the 60s there have been massive amounts of money diverted to 'goody' programs, and away from infrastructure investment.

re: #93 Charles

I could get used to being a drill sergeant. Who knew?

I think one day you should have a post and let us expand upon what you could be. Or what we all could be if no holds barred.

It really would be fun I think. hehe.

Minneapolis Star Tribune confirming for Fox that at least 50 cars are in the water. 9 dead so far, 20 known missing.

re: #89 mean Gene
82/F and cloudy...

re: #89 mean Gene

What's the weather like up there tonight?
I heard it was raining earlier.

Seventy eight degrees and muggy. A thin line of storms blew through earlier, but missed the area by about a mile.

re: #92 Charles

Sergeant? More like Captain's Mast!

/

re: #92 Charles

I could get used to being a drill sergeant. Who knew?

A song for Charles.

re: #78 swamprat

They have a lot of answering to do.

re: #100 Highrise

I agree terrorism cannot be ruled out, it is just so very overt.

The evidence will be overwhelming if it was terrorism.

Charles and since you are reading this thread closely..I have to say..good LORD this sight is LIGHTNING fast. Great job...like any of us should be surprised :P .

I have seriously seen a difference on my side..and I just am amazed.

re: #92 Charles

I could get used to being a drill sergeant. Who knew?

Charles, I just CAN'T imagine you with a crew cut.

off topic... can we get a chat room on this site?

re: #97 Krampus

re: #94 bikermailman

re: #47 RepJ

It's just awful. I dread seeing liberal Democrats try to blame this on Bush and Pawlenty tomorrow.

Man, those people are really foul-mouthed.

Foul mouthed nuthin'. Foul minded.

Terrorism? I think sabotage might be a better term.

lrsshadow (#116),

There already is one.

I haven't read through all the threads, but does anyone know if "Ma Sands" got in touch with her daughter?

Hope she's ok...

#121 Yankee

Yes, thank God, her daughter is safe.

re: #116 lrsshadow

off topic... can we get a chat room on this site?

Yes! We can..

:pulls chat room out of hat:

Ta da! Now look up to the right of the page

This wasn't merely weight. I've read that it was due to heat. From what I saw, the pylons were still intact. From my initial reaction I thought all the cars had fallen into the water. The worst case seemed to be cars stacked on top of each other. Part of the bridge also fell onto a passing by train running underneath the freeway. Certainly tragic. Half the city is shut down and cell lines are jammed because so many calls are going in and out. It's nearly impossible to get North of the metro...

re: #93 Charles

I could get used to being a drill sergeant. Who knew?

Ok I have to admit what immediately came into my mind when I read this statement from Charles.

Anyone recall the Bill Cosby comedy special where he talks about his parents going through parenthood..and he refers to his mom with a stick looking like a samarui warrior (sp?) and says "let the beatings begin"?

My goodness what clean humor bill cosby has yet no he uses no cussing or grossness..he is true art. I love that guy...warts and all hehe.

But seriously. One advantage of the new Ajax commenting system is that I can now monitor what's going down here a lot better, when I have time to do it. Patterns emerge. And I do not want a username like 'pork rinds for allah' appearing next to one of my posts on the front page.

If that's the kind of image you want to project, find somewhere else to do it.

re: #116 lrsshadow

off topic... can we get a chat room on this site?

Upper right corner: Lizard Lounge.

re: #121 Dublin(CA)Dude

#121 Yankee

Yes, thank God, her daughter is safe.

Good to hear. Thank you.

re: #122 Ginn

LOL. Ta da!

OT
No Profiling

Police want DNA from speeding drivers and litterbugs on database

Police are seeking powers to take DNA samples from suspects on the streets and for non-imprisonable offences such as speeding and dropping litter.

The demand for a huge expansion of powers to take DNA comes as a government watchdog announced the first public inquiry into the national DNA database.

There is growing concern among MPs and civil liberties groups about the number of children under 10 and young black men on the database — the biggest in the world. But a number of police forces in England and Wales are backing proposals that would add millions more samples to it.

The Association of Chief Police Officers gave a warning, however, that allowing police to take samples for non-recordable offences — crimes for which offenders cannot be imprisoned — might be perceived as indicative of “the increasing criminalisation of the generally law-abiding public”.

The term "Act of God" doesn't get used much anymore "Act of Bush" is now all the rage.

re: #115 BikerMailman
How about a skullet?

When I first saw this Minneapolis I-35 bridge collapse, I thought it looked like a scene straight out of the movie "The Mothman Prophecies" which was based on a real bridge collapse in Point Pleasant. It just collapsed out of the blue. Weird.

re: #27 StarsandStripesForever

well, after a long search here's what i've got...nothing. i've taken a few hydrology classes so the least i can do is give you an educated guess. if the St.Anthony Lock and Dam (that's about the only thing i learned in my search, the name of that dam) was open, it would've been hell for whoever fell in. look at the google earth picture. the fact that the river narrows right at the point is bad news because it means the water's velocity is going to increase significantly. it looks like it could be moving 10-15 feet per second. authorities closed the dam, or at least reduced the flow as far as i had heard.

re: #131 Atman

re: #115 BikerMailman
How about a skullet?

LMAO!

re: #128 Sharmuta

re: #122 Ginn

LOL. Ta da!

lol! Waves cane... And now.. for my next act...

Hey didnt the senator from Minn last week put a nix on the Nafta Superhighway going thru Minn? On 35?

I bet the troofers are cooking up some diabolical cause...

Has anybody heard from Killian Bundy yet?
:(

re: #138 Irene NYC
Not yet...we're still waiting.

Hmm, two 21's

re: #138 Irene NYC

Has anybody heard from Killian Bundy yet?
:(

Is he from that area Irene?

#126 Charles 8/01/2007 10:12:06 pm PDT reply quote

But seriously. One advantage of the new Ajax commenting system is that I can now monitor what's going down here a lot better, when I have time to do it.

Oh man I've seen that in REAL TIME. You have deleted comments faster than I can refresh. And no one better sully your image on that. I won't let them and will write letters/emails.

Several times today I went my gawd that man is a work horse...with how quick the deletions are done..even in the past before ajax, I was in awe frankly.

I monitored my chat boards over the years, but I must admit I bow down to a master when I see one. And no, this isn't ass kissing, this is merely realizing how much work goes into it and seeing what Charles does and has to go through.

35 and superhighway

U.S. Sen. Norm Coleman, a Republican, is distancing himself from the North American Super-Corridor Coalition, Inc., according to internal documents obtained under the Minnesota Data Practices Act.

re: #141 Krampus

Krampus,

I think I remember him talking about going around the corner and catching a drink at some bar and everybody from the Twin Cities knew about the bar. I'll go look.

Did 'pork rinds for allah' get the boot?

re: #70 Bob's Kid

The number '13' is a lucky number in Judaism. You will do fine! It is always great to have the surgery over with!

Take care.

re: #133 bosforus
Thanks for searching. :) I really hope that by some miracle, some of the victims were swept to safety (i.e. some outcropping, branch, etc.) down river.

re: #138 Irene NYC

Someone saw him chasing after an ___

/Forgive, and bless all of those short-legged people in the bushes.

C'mon KB, "phone home!"

re: #112 Sharmuta

Not necessarily. What if the concrete load specified was too great for the spans? Or if the river hollowed out an underwater cavity? Or, if a heavy piece of machinery broke away and smashed a strut? Or, If someone decided to replace/repair vital components while a major concrete pour was going on. What I hear is that you desire someone to blame. It makes us feel better to have have a single point to scapegoat. It is easier than thoughtful reflection on how to prevent something like this from occurring again. We just get mad, point, shout, and yell, and then feel good about ourselves for being superior to the scapegoat. Sometimes it is appropriate. But more often it is a trick to divert attention away from the real cause.( which can be all sorts of unpleasant things; taxes too low, incompetent leaders, funds mismanaged, kickbacks, or the occasional honest mistake.

re: #105 bikermailman

The transportation taxes and fees we all pay - gas, vehicle registration, vehicle inspection, title transfers etc. - are gobbled up by bloated bureaucracies before the money gets to its intended destination, and so people lose their lives. Sad.

re: #92 Charles

Drill sergeant is beneath you, man. You are the Lizard King; you can do anything.

/prayers for the victims and their families tonight.

re: #135 Ginn

Hey Ginn, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.

I watched the first press conference with the mayor and governor. The first question from the press:

"Was it terrorism?"

This is yet another byproduct of our post 9/11 world. Pre-9/11, no one would of asked if it were terrorism. We would never even considered it.

In all probability the cause will most likely be structural failure. But I can see why people would wonder if it were a terrorist act because this is the world we now live in.

re: #92 Charles

Isn't this your dress uniform?

I'm headed to bed, but I'd like to throw in one last observation. I've been around more than a few construction and demolition jobs, and I would not discount that somebody up on that rehab job may have done something dumb that may have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

I've seen people do some awfully dumb things when they start flailing about with heavy equipment and/or torches (guns to you Brits).

re: #147 StarsandStripesForever

i really hope so too. but my goodness. the mississippi, even in slow parts, has a beast of a current. i can't imagine trying to get out of it at the I-35. hopefully there are no more casualties.

re: #151 Sharmuta

re: #135 Ginn

Hey Ginn, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.

Better your hat than your...

hee hee!

re: #21 swamprat

Why r u texting yourself?

re: #144 Irene NYC

I know the area Killian lives. If you can tell me the bar I can say for sure if he'd even be in the area.

I hope it wasn't an intrusion, but I popped him an email a little while ago.

For the record, when I get an email from someone, Outlook automatically saves the address. I think I contacted him off-blog a while ago and he responded. Didn't even realize I had it until I decided to check.

Prayers for folks in the Twin Cities from this corner of New England-- some of us in CT still remember the collapse of the Mianus River bridge in 1983. Turned out that a combination of rust from inadequate drainage, metal fatigue, poor bridge design, and two heavy trucks too close together led to the collapse. I'd be surprised if the NTSB hasn't already sent one of their "Go teams" to Minneapolis--they don't waste time when it comes to investigating a transportation disaster.

Ginn, terrorism may be what they were hoping. Common maintence, use of modern sonic equipment, and local authority will be proven at fault. It is always easier to blame the Feds.

And Charles, the Marines call them "Drill Instructors" not Drill Sargent's.

I see you more as a Marine.

After being blocked, some people also send emails that confirm it was the right decision.

re: #157 cbinflux ...Pork Rinds' post got ghosted.

re: #69 Atman

re: #31 Highrise
I have been listening live and the change was announced by the rescue chief. As was the suspension of the river search...

Alright Atman.

I'm sad..it means they did all they could to rescue for them to call it what they are now.

*sigh* well you know, I had hope.

I don't think we'll know the true body count till 24 hours are up. I hope to all that is holy it's low :( .

re: #126 new_tommy

I am so we todd ed... thought it was just the icon for this page never knew about the link... duhhh

re: #160 pat

Ginn, terrorism may be what they were hoping. Common maintence, use of modern sonic equipment, and local authority will be proven at fault. It is always easier to blame the Feds.

As I posted before. I blame the bridge.

Charles, LOL. A list?

re: #20 greifer

This is bad news. The bridge is a vessel for traffic moving North, and it'll also force more traffic to surrounding freeways moving on either side of Downtown. Not to mention there's major freeway reconstruction going on in other parts of the Twin Cities. All in all, this could not have happened in a worse spot at a worse time.

Ginn is always sensible and usually right. The Bridge.

re: #146 NY Nana

re: #70 Bob's Kid

The number '13' is a lucky number in Judaism. You will do fine! It is always great to have the surgery over with!

Take care.

I'll take it!

Thanks, and now for me (not being the night owl that you are) off to my bed, with prayers going up for Minneapolis.

Prayers for the injured, missing and dead; and for their loved ones. I hope KB shows soon. G'night.

re: #162 Charles

when i read that i imagined an email saying.
'thank you for banning me, i realize now that my frustrations and anger are getting the best of me and that i need to deal with my issues in a healthier manner than yelling at random anonymous people'
then i understood what you really meant. ha ha

re: #158 Noam Sayin'

Noam,

I can't remember the name of the bar!

When you hear from Killian, let him know we were all asking after him and hope that he and his family and loved ones are safe.

Thanks.

re: #164 Highrise
I am afraid it will go higher. It seems as if many will be found under the center span. When they officially changed the mission, it was not a good sign. There is always hope though...

re: #153 Ginn

Yup, terrorism will be on the checklist of every investigator in every department...we ALL can take that to the bank.

re: #149 swamprat

What I hear is that you desire someone to blame.

No- what I want is answers. How does a bridge that passed inspections in 2005 & 2006 suddenly collapse during maintenance?

So before making long term plans for retirement, make a plan for the case you do not come home from work tomorrow.

My prayers with victims and their families. In this case we will know pretty soon what caused it, even if not everybody will understand.

It will be the connectors. Washers and clasps. Bolts and nuts. Likely a bit of salt from road treatment that migrated. And I think the daily load is a bunch more than designed for. Sigh. I am glad the kids got out of the bus. But this is not over.

re: #162 Charles

After being blocked, some people also send emails that confirm it was the right decision.

I can just imagine. You could probably write a book.

Good night everyone!

I think the bridge was fine. I'm looking at the concrete. Either overloaded, or unevenly loaded. The bridge may end up taking the blame: It won't be able to defend itself, and it has no political friends.

Well, special prayers tonight for all the families and friends missing loved ones tonight in the Twin Cities.

re: #172 bosforus

re: #162 Charles

when i read that i imagined an email saying.
'thank you for banning me, i realize now that my frustrations and anger are getting the best of me and that i need to deal with my issues in a healthier manner than yelling at random anonymous people'
then i understood what you really meant. ha ha

lol... lol...

re: #180 swamprat

I think the bridge was fine. I'm looking at the concrete. Either overloaded, or unevenly loaded. The bridge may end up taking the blame: It won't be able to defend itself, and it has no political friends.

lol.

Nite Bob's kid. Enjoy your last 2 days. School.

Bridge collapse is a recurring nightmare of mine...I know it seems irrational, but...

Anyone remember an interstate bridge collapsing about 20 years ago?...In Penn?...I think...on I70?

re: #173 Irene NYC

If the bar was near his house, it's unlikely he'd be near 35W. I have a general idea of his locale in St. Paul. There are bars all over the place over there and St. Paulites generally don't cross the river for drinkin' and such.

I'm sure he's fine, and perhaps a little drunk.

re: #27 jrhelgeson

re: #17 Noam Sayin'

The picture
[Link: www.slide.com...]

This is the key photo, notice the concrete support angled toward the camera, and the steel has been pulled away.

Yes, an extremely interesting photo.

1) the pier should be standing straight up and down. The fact that it got "pushed" toward the river may indicate serious undermining of the pier's foundation. Then again, it could be a result of the collapse.

2) This was a catastrophic cascading failure. Something got WAY overstrtessed. If the pier indeed was being undermined (this sort of thing has happened in the past), then the tilt introduced to the elements of the structure would cause first one, then two, then many of the beams (the elements) to catastrophically fail, causing what you see. Witnesses are saying they heard loud bangs, which could indicate catastrophic joint failures. They tend to be noisy when they get jerked loose. Tension failures go bang, compression failures go crunch (as a general rule).

It is interesting to note that the center span dropped striaght down into the river. It got pulled away from its tie points and just simply dropped. I wish I had access to the bridge blueprints so I could run it through the structural analysis program(s) I have available through my work - I would introduce a tilt in the pier and see what happens.

NTSB is a-gonna be busy with this one for quite a few years!

JAFLW

/No, I'm *not* a Civil Engineer, I don't even play one on T.V. - but I had Finite Element Analysis in College, and the lessons stuck with me. I'm a Computer Network Engineer instead...

re: #150 swamprat

I can only agree about the whole blame game if it's from the standpoint of irrational questions asking what happened.

The day we stifle the questions that NEED to be asked, let's just lay down and die imo.

From my point of view, sharmuta and several others have been actually quite brilliant in their questions.

If I want to see irrational blame, KOS is a fantastic example.

LGF however, 99 percent of the people here are sharp and ask damn good questions, I'd have LOVED to have them on my engineering teams when I used to operate and manage them..hands down...hands down!

Really OT: ReBoot TV series is getting ressurected

[Link: www.rainmaker.com...]

re: #176 Sharmuta

i'm sure all questions will be answered. just not 4 hours after the incident.

OK, after many phone calls I'd just thought I'd say that everyone I know is accounted for.

But this still sucks. Supremely.

re: #187 Noam Sayin'
Let's hope...
I'll say good night to all you fine folks.

re: #187 Noam Sayin'

re: #173 Irene NYC

If the bar was near his house, it's unlikely he'd be near 35W. I have a general idea of his locale in St. Paul. There are bars all over the place over there and St. Paulites generally don't cross the river for drinkin' and such.

I'm sure he's fine, and perhaps a little drunk.

I bet he'll love these posts.. ... ... ..

re: #188 just another four-letter word

which software do you use?

re: #191 bosforus

I realize that. Doesn't mean I can't start asking them.

re: #162 Charles
You probably denied entry to the Shark delivering candygrams, too!

re: #170 Bob's Kid

Sweet dreams. I think that we all will be praying for the victims and the families, and the people in St. Paul and Minneapolis. And special prayers and gratitude to the selfless citizens who rushed to help and the First Responders.

G-d bless them.

re: #193 Atman

re: #187 Noam Sayin'
Let's hope...
I'll say good night to all you fine folks.

Good night Atman

re: #196 Sharmuta

agreed. something to fall asleep to tonight.

I have no clue what has happened tonight... anyone? I have no TV...

re: #189 Highrise

...Granted on all points.

re: #120 Yankee Division Son

Yup. Did. About 10 p.m. local time. Thanks for asking! :)

We're not attached to that one, Charles.

re: #190 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Really OT: ReBoot TV series is getting ressurected

[Link: www.rainmaker.com...]

Well it's about time. That was a great show, and it got even better after ABC dropped it.

re: #192 ChenZhen

Chen, I'm glad that you and yours are all ok.
No matter how much I yell at you I wouldn't want to see any harm come to you or your family and friends.

re: #66 Charles

Near zero tolerance begins now.

I've been gone too long. What is that? Is ChenZhen on a leash now?

calling all angels
calling all angels
walk me through this one
don't leave me alone
calling all angels
calling all angels
we're cryin' and we're hurtin'
and we're not sure why...

Jane Siberry

re: #199 Krampus
'nite Krampus...

For those who lost their lives.

The system should be given a chance to work. I see no reason why this should EVER happen again. Don't we have robots on Mars and shit?

Someone cut corners, and I want their heads on pikes, Goddammit!

The Chinese may be on to something.

re: #100 Highrise

Spoken like a true Engineering professional. I don't know means I DON"T KNOW, and until the structural engineers on scene start their analysis, we simply won't know what happened! WAGs and SWAGs are all well and good, but, people, we don't know nuttin' yet, okay?

Ahem. Carry on.

JAFLW

re: #209 Murqtaad

re: #66 Charles

Near zero tolerance begins now.

I've been gone too long. What is that? Is ChenZhen on a leash now?

You have to wear your nice pajamas. Brush your hair and teeth. Be polite.

/Mr. Bungle

re: #186 BignJames

Bridge collapse is a recurring nightmare of mine...I know it seems irrational, but...

Anyone remember an interstate bridge collapsing about 20 years ago?...In Penn?...I think...on I70?

A section of I 70 in eastern Ohio (Bridgepport) collapsed into an abandoned coal mine.

How's that for unexpected. Well maybe not on that part of Ohio. its mostly hollow underneath.

Something to consider was that this was a steel arch span bridge. This type of design is rarely used in modern bridge design because of the possibility of cascading failure. While the underlying design philosophy is sound, the lack of structural redundancy means that any primary structural member failure could result in a major collapse. I think we've seen that today.

re: #201 bosforus

Yeah... That is- if you can sleep tonight.

re: #210 Ginn
You mean this...
/...bye..

Reports that they're closing all the other parallel bridges down, too. Interesting. Probably just a safety precaution, but what a major inconvenience.

(Coast to Coast radio show still has live coverage.)

re: #193 Atman

G'nite, Atman. May today be better for everyone...

re: #215 Ginn

re: #209 Murqtaad

re: #66 Charles

Near zero tolerance begins now.

I've been gone too long. What is that? Is ChenZhen on a leash now?

You have to wear your nice pajamas. Brush your hair and teeth. Be polite.

/Mr. Bungle

Was it the hair? Im lost?

re: #189 Highrise

Was thinking about an inspector pumping epoxy into a crack using a greasegun-like device; recommended procedure. ...Huge piece of concrete popped out and had to be repaired! Poor guy. ..On the other hand, ..Inspector asleep under a tree. Chief inspector comes along..."should we wkake him up"..."Oh no! Don't do that! As long as he's asleep, He has a job!"

All sections of the bridge appear to have collapsed due to straight pull-apart loss of integrity of support and fell directly and vertically downward, with one exception. The section of roadway just downstream from the single-stage tug + barge lock is twisted to the south and collapsed at an angle, but the bases of the vertical supports there appear to remain in their original positions. Intentional damage to the integrity of rivets, crossbars and some of the other supports above the bases at the end of that section just above the river bank there would have, with the proper exacerbating conditions, created torsional forces resulting in the skewed angle of collapse that differs from that of the other sections that collapsed straight downward, leading to a cascade effect for the other sections.

This looks very much like the limited descriptions I’ve read of the aborted Brooklyn Bridge plot.

Or I could be completely out of my mind.

There’s just something I’m seeing in the helicopter video shots that sets that one location apart from all the others.

re: #222 Murqtaad

Murqtaad, it means we have to start wearing pants again.

re: #221 NY Nana
Amen NY Nana, amen...

Shar!

A friendly face in the madness! What has happenend? I have no connection to the world. Im in the poconos.

Came across this entry from a Mipple city blogger

[Link: www.blanked-out.com...]

looking like a slow collapse from thier POV

re: #212 Krampus

That is beautiful. Thank you for posting it.

re: #192 ChenZhen

Yes, it sucks, but I am so glad that everyone you know is OK..and that you are,too.

re: #226 DesertSage

re: #222 Murqtaad

Murqtaad, it means we have to start wearing pants again.

Im upto my waste in mezcal, you know bout that?

re: #227 Atman

Amen, Cartman.

No matter how many disasters we have seen? We are never really prepared.

re: #230 Ma Sands

Your welcome Ma.

This was not terrorism, I was there.
I have pictures of rust, etc. Rust that wasn't exposed pre-collapse.
I've seen the damage to overpasses from the salt and winter weather.

THIS IS AN ENGINEERING FAILURE - NOT A HOMELAND SECURITY FAILURE

re: #224 savage_nation

All the spans across the Mississippi?

I'm not sure, but it sounds like all the nearby ones. I'm listening to Coast to Coast right now and that's where I heard it.

re: #208 DesertSage

re: #192 ChenZhen

Chen, I'm glad that you and yours are all ok.
No matter how much I yell at you I wouldn't want to see any harm come to you or your family and friends.

Hey thanks Sage.

re: #57 ChenZhen

God does this suck. How in the hell does a bridge just go down like this? I mean, you'd think there would be some signs, like notice some sagging or something. This is strange.

I don't know much about engineering, but this reminds me of the collapse of the skywalk in the Hyatt in Kansas City in 1981. It was really just awful, with more than 100 killed and close to 200 more injured.

The skywalk came straight down, crushing or trapping people under it. Weight on the skywalk, the rhythm of the music and people (it was an afternoon tea dance) played a part. But the root cause was supporting rods pulled out of the I-beams because of design flaws. I saw a show that detailed the flaws and had mock-ups of how it happened. Anyway, this "straight down" collapse really reminds me of the skywalk falling.

re: #224 savage_nation

No. Here is a map for the detour.

I predict that sometime tomorrow a second-tier Congressional Democrat will blame this tragedy on Bush, and then be forced to recant before the evening news cycle, lamely saying "their comments were 'misunderstood' ". Possible candidates for this gaffe include Kerry, Reid, and/or any Democrat from Minnesota.

I'm no Karnak but you know how it is these days...

waist* not waste

chen is ok?

All is well.

Chen still is teh sux0rz

And thanks for the link to the photo album. You almost think it doesn't look so bad, until you see the sheer, steep drop on the far end of the bridge over the train line.

Oh and Murqtaad...

Treez send his love.

re: #195 bosforus

re: #188 just another four-letter word

which software do you use?

ANSYS. It's used for thermal, electrical, and structural stress analysis. Not the best for finite element analysis, but it can be tweaked. And it's running on a really, REALLY bitchin' IBM e-server that I specced out and built. A real screamer!

JALFW

re: #242 Murqtaad

waist* not waste

chen is ok?

All is well.

Chen still is teh sux0rz

Heh.

"Hey Chen YOU SUCK!

...But I'm glad you're not dead."

Group hug *sniff*

OT- This is strange. I opened internet explorer 'favorites' tab and see that the thumbnail litttle green football has been replaced with what looks like a yellow and black test pattern, and the bookmark below that is a green crescent moon and star. Anybody else experience that phenom? Must be that damned creepy Hamas bee...

re: #237 ChenZhen

Thank NY Nana too - #231 NY Nana

re: #235 JRHelgeson

This was not terrorism, I was there.
I have pictures of rust, etc. Rust that wasn't exposed pre-collapse.
I've seen the damage to overpasses from the salt and winter weather.

THIS IS AN ENGINEERING FAILURE - NOT A HOMELAND SECURITY FAILURE

And your degree in metallurgy is from where?

Mechanica!

re: #236 NiceLass

re: #224 savage_nation

All the spans across the Mississippi?

I'm not sure, but it sounds like all the nearby ones. I'm listening to Coast to Coast right now and that's where I heard it.

I just checked traffic cams in the area. It doesn't appear that other bridges are being closed, but it's dark and the cameras aren't so good at night.

Gotta hit the sack. G'night lizards.

re: #231 NY Nana

Thanks Nana!

re: #251 Noam Sayin'

see post #240

re: #244 ChenZhen

Oh and Murqtaad...

Treez send his love.

He'd better. My aunt sells to his man. I'll cut him off.

I'm listening to Coast to Coast right now and that's where I heard it.

Brainflush! STAT!

G'nite, all.

I pray we never see another disaster like this, but at the same time? It is overwelming to see how many 'ordinary' citizens, time after time, are willing to rush into a disaster, and without thinking of themselves. They do their best to try to save complete strangers. To save one life is to save the world.

G-d bless America.

re: #239 savage_nation

Here's one for you my friend. It starts in Minneapolis...pretty cool.

Murqi-

The I-35W bridge over the Mississippi River collapsed, and also I think Charles has lost his patience with petty bickering and nasty posts, so play nice.

Mechanica on Crays! Seriously.

re: #129 cbinflux

That is outrageous. I don't even think cops should be allowed to keep DNA from suspects in cases of acquittals.

g'nite all.

Say a little prayer for the victims...even if you're not religious.

I heard nada bout this all nite. Wow.

re: #264 DesertSage

Nite Sage.

re: #248 DesertSage

Sage? When something like this happens? We realize that people we have never met, in most cases, are part of this community, and Chen is one of us.

Wish Killian would show up..I will check in the AM.

I went into the city today on 35W to go to a Saints game. I didn't cross that bridge but felt a little creeped out seeing this on the news since my forays into the city are so infrequent and I was as close as I was at that time.

Prayers of healing for all those that need it.

re: #265 Murqtaad
Read the headers that Charles has posted. It is all there.

My eyes are glazing over after hours of trying to contact family in the Twin Cities (a hundred miles east of me), watching the televised reports and reading the blog comment threads. But I want to mention a few things. Forgive me if they have been brought up before. First, there is no "Minneapolis side" of the bridge. Both ends of the bridge are in Minneapolis. Second, the piers are anchored in bedrock and are not in the river bed. There is no chance of scouring or subsiding. Third, despite the problems with durability of concrete in the North, the structural elements of this bridge were steel, painted to resist corrosion, not concrete. The decking was concrete. Finally, although structural failure is most probably the cause, my former Green Beret cousin and I know of several inobtrusive ways of weakening the bridge in a way that would guarantee a collapse, albeit without a firm time frame. It would not require a team of guys openly climbing the bridge with huge packs of explosives, or a crazed fool with an explosives-laden truck. Now, I wish peace to all who are anxious for their loved ones in this crisis, and comfort for those who have suffered losses. My own family members have begun checking in, so my own anxiety is lessening.

re: #266 Murqtaad

Last 3 heading subjects I think on LGF. I know how it is when you have been gone for a bit and just come back...blogs can be confusing in this regard.

CZ, I am back. Glad you are OK.

re: #254 ChenZhen

Thank G-d you are OK...you are a good guy,in spite of trying so hard to hide it!

Politics fall by the way side when something like this happens, as they should.

Got to go to sleep!

Nite Nana. LOL. I used to say that too my Nana.