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Media Matters Scandal of the Week

Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 12:27:25 pm PDT

Well, judging from my email, a lot of people want to discuss the latest manufactured Media Matters controversy, Ann Coulter’s statement that “Jews Need to Be Perfected by Becoming Christians.”

I recommend reading the transcript at the above link to get a sense of the dynamic between Coulter and CNBC host Donny Deutsch that led up to these remarks. And then check out Omri Ceren’s take on it at Mere Rhetoric: Manufactured Scandal Of The Week: Media Matters Accuses Coulter Of Wanting To Wipe Out American Jews, Action Alerts To Pull Her Off The Air Immediately Follow.

From my reading, Coulter was simply stating standard Christian doctrine—with a little extra edginess to get Deustch wound up. Looks like it worked, and now she’ll sell some more books as a result.

UPDATE at 10/11/07 1:39:41 pm:

Just received the following email, as usual from a phony address:

Nice to see you finally come out of the closet. You find nothing offensive about Coulter saying that Judaism should be discarded? Is that really “standard Christian doctrine”? Holy Heinrich Himmler, Batman!

That’s right — I’m just like Himmler, because I wrote that this is Coulter’s schtick to sell books.

UPDATE at 10/11/07 4:09:59 pm:

I saw this one coming yesterday, when I received the following email with a press release:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
October 10, 2007

WASHINGTON, D.C. – Today, the National Jewish Democratic Council (NJDC) called on mainstream media outlets to stop inviting Ann Coulter as a guest commentator/pundit and strongly condemned recent comments that Jews should be “perfected” by accepting the New Testament and that America would be better off if Judaism were “thrown away” and all Americans were Christian.

“While Ann Coulter has freedom of speech, news outlets should exercise their freedom to use better judgment,” said NJDC Executive Director Ira N. Forman. “Just as media outlets don’t invite those who believe that Martians walk the earth to frequently comment on science stories, it’s time they stop inviting Ann Coulter to comment on politics.”

Media Matters for America has a complete transcript of Coulter’s comments — and video — available here: [Link: mediamatters.org...]

“How does someone who says that Judaism should be thrown out, that Jews should be ‘perfected’ and that America would be better off were everyone Christian continue to receive a megaphone and platform from the news networks?” continued Forman. “When will the media say ‘enough is enough?’”

Notice that they directly quote Coulter as saying:

...America would be better off if Judaism were “thrown away”...

But if you read the transcript, you’ll discover that Coulter never said this.

Donny Deutsch did, however.

Note that I am not “defending” Ann Coulter’s statement; I think it was another deliberately offensive comment from someone with a long history of making deliberately offensive comments, to promote her books.

But don’t let the lies from Media Matters and their shills jerk you around.

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1165 comments

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1 Alouette  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:29:28pm

I'd like to see Ann Coulter face off with Debbie Schlussel.

2 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:29:33pm

This was custom made for the Media Matters idiots!

3 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:30:25pm

re: #1 Alouette

I'd like to see Ann Coulter face off with Debbie Schlussel.

So would I, but the oil might get all over the camera equipment...Wait, what were you talking about?

4 blame canada  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:30:33pm

She's entitled to her opinion- as long as she doesn't blow herself up (unlike other unnamed religions of peace)

5 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:31:00pm

This will be brought out in 08...to make Christians look as hateful as Muslims.

6 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:31:00pm

All your Ann Coulter are belongs to us!

7 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:31:01pm

It works she converted Ramzi Yousef.
/

8 Bearster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:31:25pm

If Coulter was the only alternative to Shrillary, we would be in deep trouble.

As was clear in our debate with BrandonF on another thread yesterday, we don't need to start infighting between Christians, Jews, Atheists, Hindis, Buddhists, etc.

We got an enemy, a real, live, murderous, attacking-us-every-day kind of enemy. Let's just focus on not being killed by this one first, OK?

9 UPNAK  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:32:21pm

re: #3 coquimbojoe

re: #1 Alouette


I'd like to see Ann Coulter face off with Debbie Schlussel.

So would I, but the oil might get all over the camera equipment...Wait, what were you talking about?

I thought it was green jello?

10 lefty201  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:32:23pm

Coulter is amazing in her rhetoric sometimes, but you gotta admit, there is no apologist in her at all.

11 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:32:28pm

This is standard fare, folks - since Saul became Paul.

Nothing new here. Move along.

Oh - BTW, mohammedans. We don't kill each other over it.

12 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:32:51pm

She shouldn't give Media Matters the ammunition.

13 Spiny Norman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:33:16pm

Coulter does enjoy pushing their buttons so... and like good little 'bots, they jump to attention.

14 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:33:19pm

re: #4 blame canada

ROTFLMHO! How true! How appropos!

15 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:33:27pm

re: #9 UPNAK

Hey now there's an idea. Is that what you people in Alaska do for fun during those long winter months?

16 Diamond Bullet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:33:52pm

Haha, "Action Alerts".

To the Media Matters Bat Cave!

17 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:33:58pm

re: #12 Ward Cleaver

You're prolly right. They'd stew in their own juice a helluvalot faster.

18 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:34:12pm

re: #11 Cap'n DOC

This is standard fare, folks - since Saul became Paul.

Nothing new here. Move along.

Oh - BTW, mohammedans. We don't kill each other over it.


As a Christian...I do not like her dumping bombs to sell books...and Insult Jews and Christians.

19 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:34:12pm
20 galloping granny  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:34:30pm

Whether you like her opinion or not - and make no mistake, I could not disagree with her more - Ann Coulter is entitled to her own religious beliefs. It is highly unfortunate that she seeks to divide the Christian and Jewish communities. But then Ann always has been one to speak first and think later.

21 looking closely  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:35:14pm

If you assume that Coulter's MO is to deliberately try and irritate people (which by her own admission it is), stuff like this just rolls away.

I think she believes what she says (that one orthodox dogmatic view of Christianity is that Jews are "imperfect" Christians) though I don't think she "means" it in the sense that she is out to covert all Jews.

Frankly, I'd rather have Jews viewed as "imperfect" Christians by "turn the other cheek" Christians, than as "sons of pigs and apes" by "kill the infidels" Muslims.

22 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:35:14pm

re: #15 coquimbojoe

Lends new meaning to the term 'IceCapades'.

23 UPNAK  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:35:25pm

re: #15 coquimbojoe

Ahhh joe... do you really want the truth or the fictional BS we give to the terrorists.. er I mean tourists?

24 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:35:31pm

Go easy on us with the catnip, Cat Herder! Seriously, though, it's good to see you enjoying yourself. Things get a bit heavy sometimes.

While you're at it, just put up another Carter thread and drive folks bonkers!

/

25 ted  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:35:45pm

Im Jewish, and anything she says is fine by me.

I love her[in more ways than one] :>}

26 sffilk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:35:47pm

The problem is that she's seen, whether it's true or not, as a spokesperson for the Republicans and the conservatives, and whether it's true or not, she's making the Republican party look like it wants this country to be a Christian theocracy.

And a Jew like me should let her get away with saying I should become an apostate and follow her faith? To me, that sounds as bad as the Muslims.

27 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:35:52pm

re: #10 lefty201

Coulter is amazing in her rhetoric sometimes, but you gotta admit, there is no apologist in her at all.

I like to see her moderate a Democratic debate, I'd do pay per view for that!

28 chinesearithmetic  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:36:14pm

What's the Yiddish word for schtick?

29 UPNAK  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:36:57pm

re: #24 rappmandu

meow?

30 BrianA  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:36:59pm

Her talent for getting the libtards in a lather is unrivaled.

31 lefty201  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:37:02pm

re: #27 jcm

re: #10 lefty201


Coulter is amazing in her rhetoric sometimes, but you gotta admit, there is no apologist in her at all.

I like to see her moderate a Democratic debate, I'd do pay per view for that!


they don't have the balls to do that. except maybe hillary she's got a bigger set than I do.

32 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:37:22pm

re: #23 UPNAK

Truth. With pictures. And video.

33 ted  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:37:27pm

re: #28 chinesearithmetic
Shtick ?

What's the Yiddish word for schtick?
34 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:37:58pm

re: #18 storagemanager

I see your point - and mine is that we've been co-existing with each other for two thousand years and haven't gone to war over it. The same cannot be said of that other brand.

35 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:37:59pm

re: #19 buzzsawmonkey

Thank you very much for reposting those. I am breathing again now.

36 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:38:14pm

Resisting urge to derail this into a Totten thread.

/

37 AG in Houston  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:39:07pm

What a bunch of absolute crap. I am offended by Donnie Deutch's thin skin.

Ann: Convert to Christianity?
Me: No thanks
Ann: Let's go for a Starbucks.
Me: Cool.

Manufactured anger over pure nothingness.

God-damn these nutjobs, thin-skinned leftist Christians and Jews and Muslims and Shintoists and Buddhists and Hindus and everyone else who thinks they know it all.

Fuck all of ya'll

38 JammieWearingFool  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:40:01pm

Proving once again the left has no sense of humor (or irony), sits around waiting for an issue, or just makes one up out of whole cloth; and if Hillary's Media Matters hadn't already been exposed as a complete sham, it appears we're stuck with them.

They've gone to the well what, four or five times with Coulter? We get it, folks. You don't like her.

I guess the Rush attack backfired, the O'Reilly attack backfired, they're not getting any traction on attacking Michelle Malkin, so let's go after Coulter again.

She's selling a book, she's provocative, so who's surprised if she says something provocative?

It's really pathetic.

Then we go through a few newscycles where she's the top story, and then she sits there laughing at them while the infants on the left talk about her having an Adam's apple.

MoveOn folks.

39 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:40:18pm
If you thought the recent swarms and distortions regarding O’ Reilly and Limbaugh were bad, and the recent pronouncements from some on the left were excessively nasty, well... THIS Coulterian disaster is going to be a whole lot worse, for a whole lot longer. It is NOT going to go away. No one is going to be the least bit interested in “clarification,” here. No one is going to get the chance to get “clarified” in their understanding.

Some of my readers keep telling me Coulter is “brilliant,” but for crying out loud, this seems like a pretty dumb, clumsy and inarticulate interview and more importantly, it is a pointless exercise that makes Coulter (and Christians) sound like judgmental automatons who want to walk over you or convert you. This is going to be added to the ever-growing moral equivalence narrative that says “Christians are just like Islamic Fundamentalists!” A narrative that gets served up more often than you may realize by the deliverers of popular culture.

I hate to be cruel but as Hamlet says, I am cruel only to be kind. If Coulter can, she should try to make some sort of statement that apologizes for giving offense - because whether or not she meant to, she surely did manage it - and that does NOT sink her any further... and then maybe she should take a sabbatical, somewhere. Maybe go to Israel and hang out with these gals for a while, or something - try a little silence instead of her habitual, tiresome, trouble-making and incessant noise

.
[Link: theanchoressonline.com...]

40 Living4Him5534  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:40:27pm

It's so ridiculous that no matter what a person says, there will always be people striving to take it out of context to justify or reinforce their own ideas or opinions.

41 cosmo  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:40:53pm

There's an issue with your headline:

Media Matters Manufactured Scandal of the Week Day.

/fixed

42 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:41:27pm

re: #37 AG in Houston

While I agree Ann Coulter would indeed invite someone to Starbucks. there's too much history to just dismiss the concerns of Jews to statements like this. I suggest rereading all the comments on #19 buzzsawmonkey's posts. Those put it nicely in perspective.

43 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:41:30pm

The page over at Mere Rhetoric is quite good.

44 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:42:07pm

re: #31 lefty201

re: #27 jcm

re: #10 lefty201


Coulter is amazing in her rhetoric sometimes, but you gotta admit, there is no apologist in her at all.


I like to see her moderate a Democratic debate, I'd do pay per view for that!


they don't have the balls to do that. except maybe hillary she's got a bigger set than I do.

Get Carville do the R debate. So all I've seen is beauty pageants.

45 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:42:34pm

re: #37 AG in Houston

What a bunch of absolute crap. I am offended by Donnie Deutch's thin skin.

Ann: Convert to Christianity?
Me: No thanks
Ann: Let's go for a Starbucks.
Me: Cool.

Manufactured anger over pure nothingness.

God-damn these nutjobs, thin-skinned leftist Christians and Jews and Muslims and Shintoists and Buddhists and Hindus and everyone else who thinks they know it all.

Fuck all of ya'll

Come back to love! Put some in your heart. We'll get you a fruitcup!

46 cosmo  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:42:43pm

And when Coulter makes this sort of comment, she's vilified and virtually lynched by the MSM.

What did Jimmy "the Geek" Carter get for his anti-Semitic rants in his most recent faux book?

*crickets chirping*

47 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:42:49pm

May she could do some good...by righting about the danger of Islam...and stop ranting like a nutjob.

48 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:43:06pm

I'll note, if you look at the transcripts, that the interviewer did more to try to channel her comments into something anti-semetic.

SHE just said that she'd prefer that everyone be a christian. HE tried to steer the conversation in a way to make it look like she was for wiping out the Jews (even comparing her to President Fonzie of Iran.)

Ann Coulter could have said "I like being a christian." and the left would work hard to twist it into a hateful thing.

The same thing that they try to do to Rush on a daily basis.

Ann just looks better in a dress.

49 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:43:15pm

Breaking on FOX-two homemade bombs in "Feef" Washington.

50 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:43:55pm

re: #18 storagemanager

I really don't like it either, but she is entitled to her opinion, and to voice it as well. Lot's of voices (none of 'em self-induced) that I have to listen to, but I have to live my life as well. I don't have to defend her, I just have to defend my faith. Hard enough job at this point in time. She didn't make it any easier, but she certainly didn't make it any more difficult - for me.

51 AG in Houston  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:44:05pm

re: #42 Judith

If we all took each other's comments to heart, Ashkenazis and Sepharadis would kill each other.

Ann is not imposing her beliefs upon us. She is stating the obvious.

52 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:44:29pm

re: #37 AG in Houston

What a bunch of absolute crap. I am offended by Donnie Deutch's thin skin.

Ann: Convert to Christianity?
Me: No thanks
Ann: Let's go for a Starbucks.
Me: Cool.

Manufactured anger over pure nothingness.

God-damn these nutjobs, thin-skinned leftist Christians and Jews and Muslims and Shintoists and Buddhists and Hindus and everyone else who thinks they know it all.

Fuck all of ya'll

I've got two GOOD friends at work, a Sikh and a Mormon. We sit around trying to "convert" each other, and if not that sit around insulting each other. Best comparative religion course I've every taken.

53 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:44:56pm

re: #49 Judith

where is "Feef"?

54 Just_A_Grunt  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:45:32pm

I am not going to defend Ann on this one. She is a lawyer not a reverend, and for that reason James Dobson is far more fearsome then Ann.
She knew what she was doing and sometimes I think she sets herself to take the flak to relieve the pressure off of other folks.
But let Media Matters have their red meat so they can act like Michael Vicks' pit bulls for awhile and in the meantime Ann will continue to sell books and make liberals wonder where all the good looking smart chicks are on their side.
/Markos doesn't count!

55 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:45:37pm

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

/Yo!

56 nolocon  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:46:01pm
whether it's true or not, she's making the Republican party look like it wants this country to be a Christian theocracy.

That's buying into the Leftwing tactic for censoring Free Speech with such demagoguery. Better to fight against such religious bigotry than tolerate it or accept it on face value.

57 stashiu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:46:02pm

She is a hoot. Good grief, it almost like the libtards sit in anxious anticipation waiting to be offended.

Ann is absolutely correct. The mainline protestant churches will deny it.

58 looking closely  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:46:08pm

re: #26 sffilk

re: #26 sffilk

The problem is that she's seen, whether it's true or not, as a spokesperson for the Republicans and the conservatives, and whether it's true or not, she's making the Republican party look like it wants this country to be a Christian theocracy.

And a Jew like me should let her get away with saying I should become an apostate and follow her faith? To me, that sounds as bad as the Muslims.

Well, she (clearly) doesn't speak for the Republican party (any more than Rush does, than Pat Buchanan, etc).

The only one Ann Coulter speaks for is Ann Coulter.

You absolutely don't have to let her "get away" with her remarks. She has her view and you have yours. You're about as unlikely to persuade her that she's wrong as she is of persuading you to become a Christian. So long as only words are being swung around, I don't have a problem with any of it.

59 sffilk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:46:10pm

Need I remind people that Christians have done more than just try to convert Jews over the last 1000+ years? Such wonderful things as ghettos, The Chmielnicki (sp?) murders, pogroms, expulsions, the Inquisition, heck, what about the fact that the first Dutch governor of Nieuw Amsterdam did all he could to keep Jews out of the new colony here?

"No thanks" doesn't always work, as history has shown.

60 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:46:28pm

re: #53 Ojoe

re: #49 Judith

where is "Feef"?

Sorry I just feefed. Good thing the window's open.

61 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:46:35pm

By the way, on Ann's new book, look for the left to TRY to rip her a new one... this time suggesting that she wants women to lose the right to vote.

62 blutonazi98  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:47:04pm

i saw the original telecast, (i have no idea why i was watching the Big Douche) i did not think it was anything bad at all. she just said Jews have the old testament, Christians have the new. that makes Christians Judaism 2.0. it seemed to me that the douche man was asking the question and coulter was saying yes just to get him pissed. i was actually surprised to see so many people upset about it.

well except it was coulter and she can piss people off just by breathing.

my take i could be wrong

63 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:47:58pm

The thing is...she will say anything to sell books...she thinks she is clever...fooling us sheep...because she is so smart...I will never read anything she writes again.

64 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:47:58pm

re: #59 sffilk

I hope as a Christian, that all those bad things are over, past, and recognized as mistakes by us all.

65 J.S.  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:48:18pm

I have watched Vision TV featuring those evangelicals who tell / explain to others how to convert Jews...(they will, for example, bring on an apostate Jew, and the apostate "explains" how to win-over converts...then they hawk / attempt to sell a CD "explaining" the techniques...) this is on cable tv. So ya know, if someone wants to start a big fracas about "wanting to wipe out Jews," then maybe it should start with these sorts of television programs. (Vision is bundled with Basic Cable in Canada -- you get this channel, sans choice, the moment you sign onto cable...we're forced to subsidize this...)

66 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:48:21pm

re: #60 coquimbojoe

You mean "frip"?

67 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:48:21pm

re: #58 looking closely

re: #26 sffilk

re: #26 sffilk

The problem is that she's seen, whether it's true or not, as a spokesperson for the Republicans and the conservatives, and whether it's true or not, she's making the Republican party look like it wants this country to be a Christian theocracy.

And a Jew like me should let her get away with saying I should become an apostate and follow her faith? To me, that sounds as bad as the Muslims.

Well, she (clearly) doesn't speak for the Republican party (any more than Rush does, than Pat Buchanan, etc).

The only one Ann Coulter speaks for is Ann Coulter.

You absolutely don't have to let her "get away" with her remarks. She has her view and you have yours. You're about as unlikely to persuade her that she's wrong as she is of persuading you to become a Christian. So long as only words are being swung around, I don't have a problem with any of it.

I agree with the above. Ann was stating, and it didn't even seem as obnoxious as usual, basic Christian tenets. Don't like, get over it! Its hardly hate speech.

68 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:48:24pm

Art Katz, a Jewish man who believes in Jesus of Nazareth as is Messiah and who has recently departed this mortal world, tells how he was witnessing to a fellow Jew, a businessman from NY. The man became angry at Art and exclaimed "You are trying to destroy my Jewishness"

Art replied, "No, I am trying to make it complete"

Note, he did not say "perfect", but Complete. There is a big difference.

69 AG in Houston  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:48:38pm

re: #59 sffilk

By the way, the no thanks always works and in case it doesn't than I will walk away. If anyone chases me down, then that is my queue to get physical.

No one gets physical with me unless it's Mrs. AG in Houston.

70 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:48:44pm

What ever happened to coulterclone, who, IIRC, was the the first lizard to greet me?

71 Fjordman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:48:52pm

This brings us back to the old debate: Is there such as thing as a Judeo-Christian civilization? I know plenty of both Jews and Christians who would stress that the two religions are entirely separate and that no Judeo-Christian entity exists.

72 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:49:08pm

re: #59 sffilk

Yes, evil people have done very evil things under the guise of doing it in God's name.

Doesn't make Christianity evil, just the evil people who tried to twist it to suit their needs.

73 toomanysnax  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:49:10pm

I didn't know this many people watch CNBC, let alone Dreadful Donny. He's a tool of the "left" and is not ashamed to let everyone know. Quit watching and we might get his Big Idea replaced with something worthwhile. Green Acres reruns?

74 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:49:33pm

re: #59 sffilk

I suppose... But then you have the likes of Monsignor O'Flaherty.

75 Just_A_Grunt  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:49:46pm

That is Fife, WA

76 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:49:46pm
From my reading, Coulter was simply stating standard Christian doctrine—


True, according to many Christians all non-Christians are destined to hell and need to be converted but that doesn't absolve her of an offensive viewpoint just because it's in the Bible. Fred Phelps quotes the Bible all the time and he's a prick.
I found Coulter's exchange (after reading the transcript) to be offensive Christian supremicism.

77 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:49:51pm

re: #47 storagemanager

She does that 24/7. This was an unfortunate way of responding to Deutche's jabs, but don't toss out all her work fighting Islam.

78 UPNAK  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:49:51pm

re: #59 sffilk

Need I remind people that Christians have done more than just try to convert Jews over the last 1000+ years? Such wonderful things as ghettos, The Chmielnicki (sp?) murders, pogroms, expulsions, the Inquisition, heck, what about the fact that the first Dutch governor of Nieuw Amsterdam did all he could to keep Jews out of the new colony here?

"No thanks" doesn't always work, as history has shown.

Umm ghettos were LONG around before "Christians" they went under the name of another guise.

Sorry that one is quite the annoying peice that you should read about.

79 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:49:53pm

re: #54 Just_A_Grunt

I am not going to defend Ann on this one. She is a lawyer not a reverend, and for that reason James Dobson is far more fearsome then Ann.
She knew what she was doing and sometimes I think she sets herself to take the flak to relieve the pressure off of other folks.
But let Media Matters have their red meat so they can act like Michael Vicks' pit bulls for awhile and in the meantime Ann will continue to sell books and make liberals wonder where all the good looking smart chicks are on their side.
/Markos doesn't count!

I don't think she needs defending. She feels out an interviewer then yanks their chain, hard, they never fail to take the bait go running around yelling about Ann this Ann that. She gets more interviews, more exposure sells more books. How many libs do you think buy her books just to be outraged?

She uses hyperbole, sarcasm, and humor to great effect.

80 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:50:00pm

I am reminded of the "Do unto others" thing. Perhaps if Ann thought a little more about the fact that Jews generally regard a conversion to Christianity not as just another upgrade on their religion (like they way they can an upgrade their computer system), but rather see at as Jews do, as the utter obliteration of the Jew involved, one that is nearly as bad as having a violent Muslim just outright kill them in a suicide bombing, they might not be so quick to promote conversion.

81 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:50:08pm

re: #59 sffilk

Need I remind people that Christians have done more than just try to convert Jews over the last 1000+ years? Such wonderful things as ghettos, The Chmielnicki (sp?) murders, pogroms, expulsions, the Inquisition, heck, what about the fact that the first Dutch governor of Nieuw Amsterdam did all he could to keep Jews out of the new colony here?

"No thanks" doesn't always work, as history has shown.

Those actions were NOT done by true Christians!

82 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:50:13pm

re: #70 rappmandu

believe it or not, I was about to post that same question. I miss them I think.

83 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:50:15pm

re: #66 Ojoe

re: #60 coquimbojoe

You mean "frip"?

Can I call you Coquimb?

84 JammieWearingFool  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:50:24pm

Has Silky sent out a new fundraising pitch yet?

85 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:50:51pm
86 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:51:04pm

re: #51 AG in Houston

I don't understand that comment.

87 jamgarr  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:51:13pm

Repost from DT below:

Ann Coulter makes me question the old bromide about not blaming the messenger (modified so as not to imply that I mean harm to her). I'm sympatico with alot of her ideas but, face it, she's a real biotch.

88 Gmac  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:52:43pm

Ann Coulter baits so many people (some here even) so easily and thats why I love her. She has the ability to raise the ire of villiage idiots when they take her out of context and attempt to use her words against her.

Consequently the mirmadons will howl their disapproval, she'll sit back knowing the truth of her words has once again hit the mark and smile, all the way to the bank.

89 AG in Houston  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:52:50pm

re: #86 Judith

Judith

Ashkenazi Jews and Sepharadic Jews would slaughter each other over how to wrap a teffilin if it weren't for those who would kill all Jews.

91 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:52:56pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

From my reading, Coulter was simply stating standard Christian doctrine—

True, according to many Christians all non-Christians are destined to hell and need to be converted but that doesn't absolve her of an offensive viewpoint just because it's in the Bible. Fred Phelps quotes the Bible all the time and he's a prick.
I found Coulter's exchange (after reading the transcript) to be offensive Christian supremicism.

Thanks for comparing her to Phelps. I guess "Yes, as a christian I would hope that everyone could be a christian" is akin to "Soldiers burn in hell because america has gays."

92 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:53:03pm

She can be boorish.

Most in-your-face transexuals are . . .

93 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:53:16pm

If Ibrahim Hooper had said this in an interview we'd all be freaking out about Islamofascism.

94 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:53:26pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

From my reading, Coulter was simply stating standard Christian doctrine—

True, according to many Christians all non-Christians are destined to hell and need to be converted but that doesn't absolve her of an offensive viewpoint just because it's in the Bible. Fred Phelps quotes the Bible all the time and he's a prick.
I found Coulter's exchange (after reading the transcript) to be offensive Christian supremicism.

But I'm not absolving her of anything -- her whole schtick is being offensive, and I just can't get too worked up about it. Notice you don't see a lot of Ann Coulter threads here...

95 jill e  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:53:27pm

Creeds must disagree: it is the whole fun of the thing. If I think the universe is triangular, and you think it is square, there cannot be room for two universes. We may argue politely, we may argue humanely, we may argue with great mutual benefit; but obviously we must argue. Modern toleration is really a tyranny. It is a tyranny because it is a silence. To say that I must not deny my opponent's faith is to say I must not discuss it ... It is absurd to have a discussion on Comparative Religions if you don't compare them. —G.K. Chesterton

96 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:53:36pm

re: #81 MandyManners

re: #59 sffilk

Those actions were NOT done by true Christians!

And those suicide bombers...well they're not true Muslims either. (Or, those peace loving tolerant Muslims, they're not true Muslims, as you wish.)

I suggest reading Spencer's latest book on why Christianity is a religion of peace and Islam is not. Those were true Christians doing those pograms. They did not have the blessing of the pope and they were misguided, that's all.

97 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:53:41pm

re: #83 coquimbojoe

OK (?)

98 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:53:54pm

re: #84 JammieWearingFool

Has Silky sent out a new fundraising pitch yet?

Here's some of the raw footage I came across of the new pitch...

99 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:53:55pm

This poster thread has lizards at each other's throats.

/It's got hamster written all over it.

100 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:54:06pm

She is a very intelligent woman, but I think she tries a little too hard to be controversial.


That being said, is there any religion, other than Judaism (and isn't that based on the belief that if God had wanted a Gentile to be Jewish, they would have been born Jewish (or been very strongly motivated to seek it out on their own)) that doesn't seek, one way or another, to gain converts.


Just that most of them don't kill (at least not in modern history) those that refuse. I mean, the Witnesses come to my house several times a year, and I've been hit up by LDS people, but they have never tried to kill me when I said I wasn't really interested. (That, and while the theology is messed up, the 'Watchtower' and the other Witness material make for good throne room reading. I should get a cheap paperback translation of the Koran someday, learn the enemy and keep myself from boredom while otherwise indisposed).

101 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:54:09pm

At last, a thread about this topic.

The issue is not a question about free speech -- it is a question about judgement. Coulter has the right to express her religious opinions, and yes, the idea that Jews are imperfect for not accepting Christ is standard doctrine. The question is: what is Ann hoping to accomplish by her antics? Many of us work very hard to convince Jews to stop reflexively voting Democrat, and now, instead of talking about substantative issues about the political positions, the first step is to apologize for Coulter. Is she hoping to further the interest of Republican candidates?

Yet it is not only that Coulter does a disservice to anti-idiotarian goals, she is also uninteresting. Often a Liberal makes a statement that is easily dissected using simple logic, but Ann never seems to do so. Rather, she gets into breathy ad-hominems that fail to impress.

Finally, Coulter accomplishes nothing in trying to persuade non-Conservatives to re-examine their positions. She provides un-intellectual masturbation material her own fans, and gives easy ammunition to her opponents. It doesn't make any difference that Media Matters (Piss be upon it) broke the story. You could write a computer program to criticize and publicize her comments to frighten the Democrat base.

Did you ever notice that when the drive-by media wants to trot out a conservative for "balance", they always rely on bogeymen like Pat Buchanan and Ann Coulter, an that they never select any one of several million garden-variety anti-idiotarians? Ann Coulter helps the Left and does nothing for the causes she professes to believe in.

102 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:54:31pm
103 Big Al  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:54:34pm

Oh Brother. Let's all calm down shall we. Coulter (who is quite brilliant by the way-you don't get to clerk for a federal circuit court if you're a dummy) makes her living off of make outrageous statements like this. Does anyone in their right mind think that Coulter is an anti-Semite? All of the ideologues lambasting her for her "hateful" and "anti-Semitic" comments are the same people advocating for the rights of the likes of Mr. Ahmedinejad to speak at Columbia. This is a completely manufactured scandal by individuals who dislike Coulter and who are looking for a way to flay her on national television because of her political views.

I am an observant, right-wing Jew and I am not at all offended by what Coulter says simply because it's part of the Christian narrative that Jews should convert and accept Christ as their savior. So what? Coulter is not advocating for the destruction of Israel or Judaism. If anything she has spoken implicitly if not explicitly on the importance of defending Israel against our common existential enemies.

Hey Donny. You're a disingenuous ideologue. What's your position on Ahmedinajad's speaking at Columbia? What's your position on the Arab-Israeli conflict? What narratives are you legitimizing on your show I want to know? Those are the real threats, not some off-the-cuff comments by Ann Coulter.

104 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:54:46pm

re: #91 LanceKates

I think it's an apt comparison. She's a hateful, angry bigot.

105 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:54:48pm

re: #89 AG in Houston

Okay, I understand now and having had some terrible run ins with religious fanatics within my own community I reluctantly and very sadly agree with you.

106 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:54:55pm

I see another Media Matter's "Outrage of the Century of the Week" has begun.

107 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:54:55pm

re: #80 Judith

I am reminded of the "Do unto others" thing. Perhaps if Ann thought a little more about the fact that Jews generally regard a conversion to Christianity not as just another upgrade on their religion (like they way they can an upgrade their computer system), but rather see at as Jews do, as the utter obliteration of the Jew involved, one that is nearly as bad as having a violent Muslim just outright kill them in a suicide bombing, they might not be so quick to promote conversion.

I find the eqivalance to islamic bombing to be rather offensive.

108 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:54:57pm

re: #97 Ojoe

re: #83 coquimbojoe

OK (?)

see, you got the ojoe part of coquimbojoe...ah, never mind

109 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:55:11pm

Words have meaning...as a writer she knows that...it was not an accident...she likes to drop bombs...then cash the check...she doesn't care about damage...someone else can sweep it up.

110 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:55:29pm

re: #91 LanceKates

That's a keeper. Mind if I borrow it?

111 UPNAK  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:55:37pm

re: #96 Judith

re: #81 MandyManners


re: #59 sffilk

Those actions were NOT done by true Christians!

And those suicide bombers...well they're not true Muslims either. (Or, those peace loving tolerant Muslims, they're not true Muslims, as you wish.)

I suggest reading Spencer's latest book on why Christianity is a religion of peace and Islam is not. Those were true Christians doing those pograms. They did not have the blessing of the pope and they were misguided, that's all.


They aren't? Hmmm I assumed they believe in blowing up themselves to reach "Paradise' in their twisted mind they call it matyring?

Sorry I don't trust ANY muslims!

112 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:55:39pm

re: #108 coquimbojoe

OK.

& Back to work for me.

113 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:55:40pm

re: #53 Ojoe

Damned if I know. Somewhere in Washington, apparently.

114 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:55:44pm

re: #96 Judith

re: #81 MandyManners


re: #59 sffilk

Those actions were NOT done by true Christians!

And those suicide bombers...well they're not true Muslims either. (Or, those peace loving tolerant Muslims, they're not true Muslims, as you wish.)

I suggest reading Spencer's latest book on why Christianity is a religion of peace and Islam is not. Those were true Christians doing those pograms. They did not have the blessing of the pope and they were misguided, that's all.

They were not following the words of Christ. He said to go forth and preach the Gospel. Period. Nothing about killing those who don't believe.

115 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:55:48pm

Don't trust the Shover Robot!

116 PISSED  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:56:10pm

OT

I know I'm preachin' to the choir here, but this is well worth reading, heck even print it out and fax it to liberal friends ; )

[Link: www.newmediajournal.us...]

117 looking closely  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:56:19pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

From my reading, Coulter was simply stating standard Christian doctrine—

I found Coulter's exchange (after reading the transcript) to be offensive Christian supremicism.


I do too, though I grant her the right to hold those beliefs, as well as to be vocal about them. (I've always though she is an obnoxious c#$t anyway, though she can be entertaining both in spite of that, and because of it).

There are plenty of worse things to believe about Jews than that they are are "imperfect Christians".

Again, she's free to try and convert Jews (though I don't think she actually is trying that), so long as she simply uses words. Somehow, I don't think she's going to be very persuasive.

118 galloping granny  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:56:24pm

re: #81 MandyManners

re: #59 sffilk

Need I remind people that Christians have done more than just try to convert Jews over the last 1000+ years? Such wonderful things as ghettos, The Chmielnicki (sp?) murders, pogroms, expulsions, the Inquisition, heck, what about the fact that the first Dutch governor of Nieuw Amsterdam did all he could to keep Jews out of the new colony here?

"No thanks" doesn't always work, as history has shown.

Those actions were NOT done by true Christians!

Hear, hear! We are told that when we all stand in judgment. many will say that they preached and did good works in the name of the Lord, but that he will turn his back and state that he never knew them.

119 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:56:55pm

re: #89 AG in Houston

Ashkenazi Jews and Sepharadic Jews would slaughter each other over how to wrap a teffilin if it weren't for those who would kill all Jews.


Excuse me, but that is crap.

120 Psycotte  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:57:03pm

Welcome to the world of moral relativism. We can no longer express our thoughts, political views, religious views, personal views or any other views we care to think or espouse. If we ACTUALLY say what we think we are morally incorrect because somebody will be offended.

This is supposed to be a Democracy. We are supposed to have freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion...peh not likely anymore.

Take the following for instance:

Disagree with the FOLSOM Street fair = HOMOPHOBE
Disagree with Sharpton, Jackson = RACIST
Disagree with radical Islam = ISLAMOPHOBE
Disagree with enforcing Immigration Law = RACIST ANTI-IMMIGRANT
Disagree with S-CHIP = CHILD KILLER

So I respectfully ask...Just what can I disagree with without being labeled?

121 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:57:08pm

re: #94 Charles

But I don't see this as a manufactured scandal like the Rush limbaugh thing. She wasn't taken out of context, Media Matters presented her statement pretty accurately. I can see how people would find this offensive. I think they should.

122 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:57:12pm

re: #96 Judith

More comparisons between christians and muslim terrorists?

123 X-ray  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:57:21pm

Maybe my reading comprehension is poor but at what point does she say she wants to forcibly convert anyone?

124 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:57:25pm

re: #59 sffilk

Need I remind people that Christians have done more than just try to convert Jews over the last 1000+ years? Such wonderful things as ghettos, The Chmielnicki (sp?) murders, pogroms, expulsions, the Inquisition, heck, what about the fact that the first Dutch governor of Nieuw Amsterdam did all he could to keep Jews out of the new colony here?

"No thanks" doesn't always work, as history has shown.


We're getting much better.

125 DVol  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:58:09pm

OK, she has a right to say anything she wants. BUT, I wish she would shut up!

This IS standard Christian dogma. And, I have been hearing this SHIT from Christians since I was 5 years old, and frankly, I'm pretty damn sick of it.

The traditional conservative political movement, whose principles include (a) freedom of speech AND freedom of religion as espoused in the Bill of Rights, and (b) minimizing the interference of government in our lives, was hijacked many years ago by the so-called "Religious Right" (who may be religious but are certainly not "Right"), in their desire to ensure that the tenets of Christianity, rather than the guarantees of freedom contained in the Constitution, drive public policy.
So-called conservatives who insist that Christianity must have some dominant role in America political life are an incredibly destructive influence, and will continue to hold us back from retaining those freedoms which we hold dear.

THIS is the main why I am pissed off at Ann Coulter, because by her outrageous comments (and this is not the first time she has tried to rile up non-Christians) continues to give ammunition to the enemies of true conservative principles.

126 nolocon  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:58:15pm

re: #59 sffilk

Need I remind people that Christians have done more than just try to convert Jews over the last 1000+ years? Such wonderful things as ghettos, The Chmielnicki (sp?) murders, pogroms, expulsions, the Inquisition, heck, what about the fact that the first Dutch governor of Nieuw Amsterdam did all he could to keep Jews out of the new colony here?
"No thanks" doesn't always work, as history has shown.

Okay, and in the First Century, Jews often stoned and murdered Christians. So is tit-for-tat a constructive exercise?

And, can we ... at some point ... refer to something more recent than 200, 400, 1000 year old grievances? Can we, at some point, agree to a statute of limitations on kvetching?

Oh, and as a historical correction, practicing Jews generally could not be brought within the jurisdiction of Inquisition Courts, who could only prosecute professed Christians. Yeah, yeah, I know, I loved the Mel Brooks movie too, but sorry to say, it lacked a little in historical accuracy.

127 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:58:40pm

re: #61 LanceKates

Ann is not that hard to figure out.
Why did she say that and what did she mean?
Too many women vote with their feelings (and vote Democrat) when they should vote with their heads (and vote Republicans).

Like she is really going to want to disenfranchise herself.
Libs are stooopid.

128 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:58:40pm

re: #65 J.S.

I have watched Vision TV featuring those evangelicals who tell / explain to others how to convert Jews...(they will, for example, bring on an apostate Jew, and the apostate "explains" how to win-over converts...then they hawk / attempt to sell a CD "explaining" the techniques...) this is on cable tv. So ya know, if someone wants to start a big fracas about "wanting to wipe out Jews," then maybe it should start with these sorts of television programs. (Vision is bundled with Basic Cable in Canada -- you get this channel, sans choice, the moment you sign onto cable...we're forced to subsidize this...)

I know one of these guys quite well. A nonpracticing Jew who doesn't believe in Jesus for a second but just LOVES milking the good Christians out of their money. They pay him well. He averages $2000/speech.

129 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:58:58pm

re: #104 Killgore Trout

once again, I want to be sure, for clarity...

saying that "I wish everyone was a christian" is akin to saying that our soldiers are burning in hell because the US allows homosexuality.

130 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:58:58pm

Mandy, I'm with you on this. Reclaiming the Holy Land in the name of the Mother Church, was never a commission of Christ.

131 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:59:10pm

re: #118 galloping granny

This is a subject that, if I allow it, can shoot my BP up a bit.

132 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:59:12pm

re: #71 Fjordman

This brings us back to the old debate: Is there such as thing as a Judeo-Christian civilization? I know plenty of both Jews and Christians who would stress that the two religions are entirely separate and that no Judeo-Christian entity exists.

From the my Christian prespective I don't see how I can deny the Jewish roots of my faith. The Torah, first 5 books of the Bible are vitally important, in fact I claim you cannot have a New Testament faith with them.

133 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:59:15pm

re: #113 Judith

South of Seattle - East of Tacoma.

134 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:59:15pm
135 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:59:25pm

re: #103 Big Al

I don't find the fact that she was clerk for a federal court impressive. Her comments are consistently asinine. I don't believe she is anti-semitic nor have I seen her accused by anyone here as anti-semitic. The problem is that she will be perceived, by potential anti-idiotarian converts, to be anti-semitic, and for what purpose?

136 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:59:42pm

remarks by coulter of this nature will do nothing to bring fence-sitting Jews into the republican fold.

137 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 12:59:44pm

re: #110 Cap'n DOC

go ahead.

138 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:00:20pm

Coulter (in Monty Burns voice):

Eggsellent!

139 Fjordman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:00:27pm

#90: My theory has always been that Christian anti-Semitism is rooted in a Christian Oedipus complex vis-a-vis its parent religion, Judaism. It is also possible to take this analysis one step further. Many of the post-Christian Multiculturalists hate Christianity, but at the same time some of their ideas are secularized versions of Christianity. Maybe they have a similar Oedipus complex vis-a-vis their parent religion, Christianity.

140 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:00:39pm
141 Liam76  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:00:46pm

People would be flipping out here if somebody said the US would be a better place if we were all muslim. This is no different.

142 baal32  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:00:51pm

What she is saying essentially boils down to this: Christians believe in Christianity, obviously to a greater extent than they believe in Judaism, Islam, etc. So it would be ridiculous for a Christian who believes in her faith to NOT want others to also be part of the 'true' faith. Similarly a Jew who believes in Judaism more so than Christianity is obviously going to believe that Christians would be better off as Jews.

In fact it would be downright selfish and wrong for someone who believes that he or she is in possession of the 'truth' to not want others to also be able to share in that truth.

Now had she said that Jews should be forcibly converted or in some way be punished for not adhering to Christianity well then, Media Matters might have had something.

But she won't say that because I don't believe she believes that.

The bottom line is that if you believe in something there is NOTHING WRONG with wanting others to also believe that thing as long as you aren't encroaching on their personal freedoms.

As a full disclaimer - my mother is a Jew, my father a Christian, and I'm pretty much an atheist.

143 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:00:55pm

An encouraging development:

Muslim scholars make call for peace.

I've been wondering for a long time when this sort of announcement would be made. Glad to hear it's (finally) happening.

144 Zebra  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:00:55pm

As usual, Coulter shoots from the mouth first and then thinks later. This will do wonders for trying to bring more Jews in to the Republican party.

Why just Jews? Are not Buddhists, Hindus, etc. worthy of Ann's brand of salvation?

Instead of focusing on the more salient issues in this campaign, the news shows will be trotting out loony Ann to spew her irrelevant garbage. Now she becomes the face of the Republican Party and no doubt, her statements are already being printed up and sent out to raise funds for the Democratic Party.

She needs to go into mouth rehab...preferably to have it sewn shut.

145 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:00:56pm

re: #120 Psycotte

President Bush.

146 SnakeSpit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:00:57pm

Ann Coulter is smarter than all moonbats, and a lot of Lizards. Richer than most, too. She knows exactly what she's doing. I like that skinny blonde.

147 zeir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:01:02pm

Christians killed Jews habitually until recently, see recent history. B"H for Israel & the 2nd amendment.

148 dentate  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:01:07pm

I have no problem with being imperfect. In fact, you may be shocked, but I am not even a perfect Jew, so I guess that leaves me TWO steps short of perfection. So I will keep practicing my faith my way, since PRACTICE makes perfect, and politely ignore comments like Coulter's.

Her comment struck me as an OFFER, rather than a demand, which shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as the murderous rantings of the Islamists.

149 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:01:07pm

re: #130 A Kiwi Infidel

Mandy, I'm with you on this. Reclaiming the Holy Land in the name of the Mother Church, was never a commission of Christ.

I've found it no where in my Bible.

150 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:01:10pm

re: #132 jcm

re: #71 Fjordman

This brings us back to the old debate: Is there such as thing as a Judeo-Christian civilization? I know plenty of both Jews and Christians who would stress that the two religions are entirely separate and that no Judeo-Christian entity exists.

From the my Christian prespective I don't see how I can deny the Jewish roots of my faith. The Torah, first 5 books of the Bible are vitally important, in fact I claim you cannot have a New Testament faith with them.

PIMF without them.

151 AG in Houston  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:01:19pm

re: #119 Maine's Michael

No it's not.

The Ultra Orthodox nut job Jjews should move to Iran and be at one with Mahmoud instead of throwing rocks at seculars who drive on Shabbat.

Or those that would dare to call me "not Jewish." And if it weren't for me, they would kill each other. I have personal experience with the Sepharads and Ashkenazim in my own family as I am a half breed Polish-Iraqi Jew.

Don't tell me otherwise.

152 segesta  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:01:39pm

I'm a loyal lizard, but Coulter is a bomb-throwing moron, the Keith Olbermann of the Right.

153 wargammer2005  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:01:58pm

re: #18 storagemanager

how is stating official doctrine an insult?

when Chrisitans started you had to fist become jewish to then become a christian.

it was only because one of the early leaders wanted to demonstrate a difference between christians and jews that christians were no longer considers a jewish sect.

154 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:02:08pm

re: #122 LanceKates

If we are discussing the kind of Christian who did pogroms against Jews in old Europe, then yes, they are comparable. That was the kind of comparison we were doing, not the typical American Evangelical today with the typical Palestinian suicide bomber.

Sorry if it offends Christians to be reminded that a lot of Jews died at Christian hands, but they did die. Millions of them.

So to flippantly dismiss a Jew's unease about Ann's comments is a bit insensitive.

155 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:02:13pm

re: #141 Liam76

People would be flipping out here if somebody said the US would be a better place if we were all muslim. This is no different.


Bollocks

156 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:02:16pm

re: #127 hous bin pharteen

They will say that is what she meant because they want to label us ALL as evil.

157 Big Al  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:02:17pm

#80 Judith

With deference that is an absurd analogy. Maimonides spoke of the preference of conversion over death. In fact, I think you would be hard pressed to find any rabbi (Orthodox, conservative or Reform) who would ever draw such a comparison. Conversion is always preferable to death because one can always renounce one's conversion but one cannot undo the taking of a life.

158 looking closely  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:02:34pm

re: #101 Globular Cluster

At last, a thread about this topic.
Did you ever notice that when the drive-by media wants to trot out a conservative for "balance", they always rely on bogeymen like Pat Buchanan and Ann Coulter, an that they never select any one of several million garden-variety anti-idiotarians? Ann Coulter helps the Left and does nothing for the causes she professes to believe in.

Ann Coulter's primary interest is in helping Ann Coulter.

She's not a Republican party agent nor strategist.

While I'm sure she would be pleased if it happened, she's not out there to swing elections towards Republicans or Conservatives in general.

So while I agree that her mouthing things like this might tend to repulse Jews away from the Republican party, frankly, I don't think Coulter cares (if even she has thought it out that much).

159 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:02:44pm

re: #133 Cap'n DOC

re: #113 Judith

South of Seattle - East of Tacoma.

Propane truck explodes in Tacoma, October 6th.

160 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:02:52pm
161 looking closely  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:02:59pm

re: #119 Maine's Michael

re: #89 AG in Houston


Ashkenazi Jews and Sepharadic Jews would slaughter each other over how to wrap a teffilin if it weren't for those who would kill all Jews.

Excuse me, but that is crap.

Yeah, but they might argue each other to death.

162 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:03:46pm

re: #143 Cognito

LOL. A piece of work, that. And before you blow a gasket, it's the headline I'm addressing, not where you had your tongue when you made the comment.

163 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:03:48pm

re: #152 segesta

I'm a loyal lizard, but Coulter is a bomb-throwing moron, the Keith Olbermann of the Right.

Uh ... again, I'm not making excuses for what she said, and I understand why people are offended.

I'm not offended, because I don't expect any better from her.

164 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:04:00pm

re: #69 AG in Houston

re: #59 sffilk

By the way, the no thanks always works and in case it doesn't than I will walk away. If anyone chases me down, then that is my queue to get physical.

No one gets physical with me unless it's Mrs. AG in Houston.

I've eaten lunch with Mr. AG, and he is a fairly good sized fellow. Not fat, either.

And he was in the IDF, and probably knows Krav Magda (sp?)

165 jamgarr  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:04:08pm

re: #152 segesta

Coulter is a bomb-throwing moron, the Keith Olbermann of the Right.

/Ding, Ding, Ding . . . we have a winner!

166 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:04:14pm

re: #126 nolocon

point for you.

167 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:04:22pm

re: #159 rappmandu

re: #133 Cap'n DOC

re: #113 Judith

South of Seattle - East of Tacoma.

Propane truck explodes in Tacoma, October 6th.

That was in Tacoma itself, area called Nalley Valley, almost under State Rout 16.

168 galloping granny  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:04:52pm

re: #132 jcm

re: #71 Fjordman

This brings us back to the old debate: Is there such as thing as a Judeo-Christian civilization? I know plenty of both Jews and Christians who would stress that the two religions are entirely separate and that no Judeo-Christian entity exists.

From the my Christian prespective I don't see how I can deny the Jewish roots of my faith. The Torah, first 5 books of the Bible are vitally important, in fact I claim you cannot have a New Testament faith with them.

Agreed. Without the Jewish faith there is and can be no Christian faith.re: #131 MandyManners

re: #118 galloping granny

This is a subject that, if I allow it, can shoot my BP up a bit.

Breathe Mandy - just breathe.

169 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:05:06pm

re: #165 jamgarr

re: #152 segesta

Coulter is a bomb-throwing moron, the Keith Olbermann of the Right.

/Ding, Ding, Ding . . . we have a winner!

A whole lott better looking.

170 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:05:06pm

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

re: #139 Fjordman


My theory has always been that Christian anti-Semitism is rooted in a Christian Oedipus complex vis-a-vis its parent religion, Judaism.

Yes indeed; on many levels--not least the mariolatry evident in the dedication of most cathedrals.


Ah, a braver man than me. We start to get to the root of the issue.

171 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:05:17pm

re: #158 looking closely

Ann Coulter's primary interest is in helping Ann Coulter.

Right! She's selling books.

172 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:05:36pm

re: #144 Zebra

she actually started to say that, but the interviewer kept trying to twist the interview to get her to look anti-semetic. Complete with a comparison to the President of Iran.

This was an attempt to make christians out to be evil. nothing more.

173 Gaye Kukkin-Offenyam  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:05:48pm

re: #51 AG in Houston
In our Conservative Ashkenazi shule in Ontario Canada, the main Torah reader is a Sephardi from India. Everybody loves the guy and he's the best Torah reader I've ever heard. So there.

174 Hucbald  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:05:57pm

I love her.

175 Rishonah  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:06:00pm

I am a Reform Jewish wife and mother, and a moderate Democrat. At least now I know how Ann Coulter feels about me on all levels in her heart of hearts. It is better than my Presbyterian neighbor who is nice to my face and votes for divestment behind my back.

It doesn't make me like or trust her anymore than my neighbor, however. Neither one of them would be invited into my home.

Shoshana

176 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:06:01pm

re: #147 zeir

define recently?

177 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:06:28pm

re: #148 dentate

THANK YOU!

You get it.

178 blutonazi98  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:06:33pm

re: #113 Judith

ten minutes north of Tacoma, 15 minutes south of Seattle.

think seatac airport

/dont bust my chops you washingtonians i know seatac is not in fife

179 looking closely  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:06:51pm

re: #158 looking closely

On Coulter not being the most helpful toward Republicans:

[Link: weblogs.chicagotribune.com...]

Thanks, Ann: Edwards reports $12 million in cash for primaries
by Mike Dorning

John Edwards might consider a thank you note to Ann Coulter

The Democratic presidential candidate announced a few moments ago that he will report a campaign warchest available for use in the primaries of just over $12 million.

180 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:07:02pm
181 galloping granny  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:07:07pm

re: #143 Cognito

An encouraging development:

Muslim scholars make call for peace.

I've been wondering for a long time when this sort of announcement would be made. Glad to hear it's (finally) happening.

Have you read this Cognito? This is not a "call for peace." This is a Submit or Die letter.

182 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:07:39pm

re: #156 LanceKates


My MIDDLE name is evil.

183 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:07:42pm

re: #168 galloping granny

I took a moment away from the computer.

184 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:08:00pm

re: #158 looking closely

re: #101 Globular Cluster

At last, a thread about this topic.
Did you ever notice that when the drive-by media wants to trot out a conservative for "balance", they always rely on bogeymen like Pat Buchanan and Ann Coulter, an that they never select any one of several million garden-variety anti-idiotarians? Ann Coulter helps the Left and does nothing for the causes she professes to believe in.

Ann Coulter's primary interest is in helping Ann Coulter.

She's not a Republican party agent nor strategist.

While I'm sure she would be pleased if it happened, she's not out there to swing elections towards Republicans or Conservatives in general.

So while I agree that her mouthing things like this might tend to repulse Jews away from the Republican party, frankly, I don't think Coulter cares (if even she has thought it out that much).

Her latest book, "If Democrats had Brains they would be Republicans" (or something like that) does nothing to corroborate your point, vis, that she doesn't seek to help Republicans.

185 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:08:02pm

re: #154 Judith

re: #122 LanceKates

If we are discussing the kind of Christian who did pogroms against Jews in old Europe, then yes, they are comparable. That was the kind of comparison we were doing, not the typical American Evangelical today with the typical Palestinian suicide bomber.

Sorry if it offends Christians to be reminded that a lot of Jews died at Christian hands, but they did die. Millions of them.

So to flippantly dismiss a Jew's unease about Ann's comments is a bit insensitive.


We're not discussing evil people who used Christianity to kill jews. We're discussing Ann Coulter and you're moving goalposts to continue to compare christians to islamic bombers.

It is disgusting.

186 wargammer2005  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:08:21pm

trashing Coulter shows YOUR ignorance of history and the foundations of Christianity

187 dentate  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:08:32pm

re: #126 nolocon

Okay, and in the First Century, Jews often stoned and murdered Christians. So is tit-for-tat a constructive exercise?

And, can we ... at some point ... refer to something more recent than 200, 400, 1000 year old grievances? Can we, at some point, agree to a statute of limitations on kvetching?

Oh, and as a historical correction, practicing Jews generally could not be brought within the jurisdiction of Inquisition Courts, who could only prosecute professed Christians. Yeah, yeah, I know, I loved the Mel Brooks movie too, but sorry to say, it lacked a little in historical accuracy.

Ummm, a few references to back up these interesting assertions would be welcome. The main reason practicing Jews could not have been brought to the Inquisition is because after 1492, there WERE no legal practicing Jews in Spain, and "Judaizing" was a capital offense. They were all expelled or forced to convert. I am a bit skeptical of your claim of Jews murdering Christians in the First Century too--though it certainy might have happened--it was mainly Romans persecuting Christians, the Jews were pretty busy with the Romans at that point themselves, and Christianity never made much headway with the Jews for the same reason that Islam didn't--in my ancestors' opinions, what was true, wasn't new; and what was new, wasn't true.

Still, having Ann Coulter offer an option that she favors and I don't isn't exactly the Inquisition.

188 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:08:36pm

re: #151 AG in Houston

I am a 'half breed' as well, and so are almost all my cousins (lots of 'em, mostly in Israel).

I do not count the Satmars and Neturei and other nutjobs as being representative of ashkenazis any more than the sephardi ultras are representative of sephardics in general.

The days of potentially violent schisms are in the past, IMO- and not just because arabs want both groups dead.

Israel is homogenizing, in that regard.

189 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:08:45pm

re: #170 A Kiwi Infidel

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

re: #139 Fjordman


My theory has always been that Christian anti-Semitism is rooted in a Christian Oedipus complex vis-a-vis its parent religion, Judaism.


Yes indeed; on many levels--not least the mariolatry evident in the dedication of most cathedrals.


Ah, a braver man than me. We start to get to the root of the issue.

Just look at the anti-semetic "Jews killed Jesus" rational for many of the actions against the Jews. How long did that go on, and is still a "doctrine" in some denominations.

Never mind Christian faith REQUIRED the death of Jesus.

190 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:09:03pm

re: #142 baal32

Similarly a Jew who believes in Judaism more so than Christianity is obviously going to believe that Christians would be better off as Jews.

That is most emphatically NOT what Jews believe.

191 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:10:14pm

This is what Jesus said...

Revelation 13:10 10Whoever leads into captivity will himself go into captivity; if anyone slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Herein is [the call for] the patience and the faith and fidelity of the saints (God's people

Doesn't sound like a call to war...to me.

192 looking closely  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:10:52pm

re: #171 Charles

re: #158 looking closely


Ann Coulter's primary interest is in helping Ann Coulter.

Right! She's selling books.


Of course.

Books and ratings for the TV shows that (continue to) book her, despite a history of this sort of thing.

She's also selling "outrage" and people love to buy it.

193 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:10:52pm

Ann Coulter is useless.

She pushes moderates away from voting Republican while, at the same time, her stupid, unthoughtful remarks provide ammunition for the Left.

And she's annoying.

194 Lorenska  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:10:59pm

It's so funny, the minute I read this "headline," I jumped over here to LGF to get the REAL story and background...at the time, it wasn't here yet, but 5 minutes later, Charles came through like I knew he would, and gave me the real scoop. Then I was able to scroll through the comments on the story and breathe a little sigh of relief that not EVERYONE on the planet is jumping on the "Ann Coulter is a bigot!" bandwagon...but I'm worried that, in addition to selling more books, she might also get more negative backlash from this than she bargained for. I really worry that the vocal minority will succeed in getting her banned from some venues, with the threat that anyone who now gives her airtime will be considered a hatemongering anti-semite. I hope I'm wrong (but that hardly ever happens). :)

195 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:11:06pm
Sorry if it offends Christians to be reminded that a lot of Jews died at Christian hands, but they did die. Millions of them.

They were not acting as Christians ought to act. I posted a link earlier on this thread that more exemplifies how a true Christian ought to act towards his Jewish brothers and sisters. Search for O'Flaherty.

196 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:11:37pm

Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Animists, Atheists and the rest must stand together against Muslims.

197 wargammer2005  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:11:42pm

re: #175 Rishonah

as a democrat you are supporting TRAITORS

good luck with that

you are supporting those that support those that KILL our troops and us.

198 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:12:01pm

re: #171 Charles

re: #158 looking closely

Ann Coulter's primary interest is in helping Ann Coulter.

Right! She's selling books.

And this is fine? It's OK to write a bunch of uninteresting, divisive crap that damages anti-idiotarian goals, because she's "selling books"? Of course, she's free to do it, but that doesn't make her anything less than an unprincipled fool, especially when she claims so much to be principled.

C'mon.

199 Daisy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:12:12pm

Ann Coulter is an anorexic bleached blond bitch. Ooops wait a moment, that wasn't offensive, I was just saying what I was thinking. Yeah right. The woman says whatever stupid thought comes into her head and that is offensive.

As far as what she had to say about Christianity - I don't know what Christian sect she belongs to, but she sure as hell is not speaking for my belief system.

200 Cygnus  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:12:32pm

re: #68 A Kiwi Infidel

Art Katz, a Jewish man who believes in Jesus of Nazareth as is Messiah and who has recently departed this mortal world, tells how he was witnessing to a fellow Jew, a businessman from NY. The man became angry at Art and exclaimed "You are trying to destroy my Jewishness"

Art replied, "No, I am trying to make it complete"

Note, he did not say "perfect", but Complete. There is a big difference.

Amen. Some Messianic Jews are more Jewish than some of the secular, liberal Jews out there. None of us will be 'perfect' until we see Y'shua face to face.

201 baal32  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:12:37pm

re: #141 Liam76

People would be flipping out here if somebody said the US would be a better place if we were all muslim. This is no different.

1) Numerous people in US Muslim organizations have said exactly that, with very little coverage from US media
2) More importantly when people are outraged at this prospect the primary reason is that Jews and Christians (in contemporary society) share an almost identical set of moral values whereas when Ibrahim Hooper calls for the US to be Muslim he's including the imposition of Shari'a which is in direct conflict with the tolerance that this nation
was built on

202 looking closely  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:12:49pm

re: #184 Globular Cluster

re: #158 looking closely


Her latest book, "If Democrats had Brains they would be Republicans" (or something like that) does nothing to corroborate your point, vis, that she doesn't seek to help Republicans.

It doesn't invalidate my point either.

Do you think that calling people idiots and hypocrites is a good way to co-opt them?

Neither does Coulter; she's not that stupid.

203 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:12:56pm

re: #195 Cap'n DOC

We Jews tend to look at where the rubber meets the road.

Coulda shoulda woulda doesn't cut it.

Not enough of us to absorb 'mistakes'.

204 cosmo  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:12:56pm

re: #62 blutonazi98

You'd never make it as a MoveOn shill.

205 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:13:45pm

Please excuse my venting, but this pisses me off!
Watching the video on Fox of the kids in that Ohio school during the shooting.
What the hell is wrong with school admin people?

The shooter is IN the school.
He is shooting people IN the school.
I can not recall an instance where a shooter left the school to chase someone.
I can not recall once did the cops go in a school and shoot a gunmen.
They wait out side till he runs out of ammo and kills himself.
GET THE DAMN KIDS OUT OF THE SCHOOL AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!

What?
If the school catches fire they are going to keep the kids inside till the fire department shows up? Then the fireman sit outside till the fire burns itself out.

206 Big Al  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:13:52pm

#135 Globular Cluster

She clerked for a federal appellate court not a court of first instance. Those are very limited positions reserved for students with top grades. I don't know whether you've gone to law school and been through the clerking process. I have. I can tell you it's a highly competitive process. If her success as a lawyer, author, journalist and political commentator is not a sign of her intelligence and aptitude then you have very high standards for judging people indeed.

As for the asininity of her comments, and the fact that her comments will be used to sway public opinion against rational, conservative views, I agree to some extent. There are those who will not perceive her comments for what they are: a conscious effort to be inflammatory in order to gain notoriety and make money by incensing the public and riling her many detractors.

207 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:13:54pm

re: #193 Ringo the Gringo

Ann Coulter is useless.

She pushes moderates away from voting Republican while, at the same time, her stupid, unthoughtful remarks provide ammunition for the Left.

And she's annoying.


Bingo...she doean't care about the damage she causes...just the payoff...

208 Liam76  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:14:27pm

re: #155 A Kiwi Infidel

re: #141 Liam76


People would be flipping out here if somebody said the US would be a better place if we were all muslim. This is no different.

Bollocks

How is it different. If some muslim leader came out and said the Us would be better if we were all muslim, didn't threaten war or forced conversion, just said that christians and jews are imperfect and that life would be better if they were Muslim.

209 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:14:47pm

re: #205 hous bin pharteen

i had a thread about that shooting when it happend, over on my blog (click my blue name. heh)

My solution would have been to allow someone with a concealed carry permit to carry... then they could have shot the criminal before he shot up the place.

210 Fjordman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:14:58pm

#189: Actually, Roman authorities killed Jesus. But yes, this "the Jews killed Jesus" thing has been a force behind many pogroms.

211 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:15:00pm

re: #157 Big Al

Go back and read what I wrote. I didn't dispute that and I don't dispute that.

212 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:15:10pm

re: #181 galloping granny

I'm looking for the original letter now, Granny...

213 wargammer2005  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:15:29pm

Ann Coulter again demonstrate the complete inability of those that trash her to read and comprehend.

214 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:15:32pm

re: #162 Cap'n DOC

re: #143 Cognito

LOL. A piece of work, that. And before you blow a gasket, it's the headline I'm addressing, not where you had your tongue when you made the comment.

Um... okay.

215 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:15:40pm

*scroll over territory*

I dont have much utility for Coulter whatsoever, though I will defend her right to make an ass of herself as often as she likes.

If she acts like a crank sometimes (and some will definitely argue that it's more often than not), that's probably for good reason - personal enrichment and selling books will make you say stuff that gets noticed.

Is this an issue that will get people changing votes or deciding that conservatives are truly cranks? I doubt it.

The theology of what she said is actually besides the point.

It is a media stunt and nothing more.

216 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:15:41pm

re: #207 storagemanager

Bingo...she doean't care about the damage she causes...just the payoff...

In a capitalist system, isn't that the standard?

217 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:15:45pm

re: #208 Liam76

I forget, which side tries to bomb you for not being one of them?

218 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:15:45pm

re: #175 Rishonah

I am a Reform Jewish wife and mother, and a moderate Democrat. At least now I know how Ann Coulter feels about me on all levels in her heart of hearts. It is better than my Presbyterian neighbor who is nice to my face and votes for divestment behind my back.

It doesn't make me like or trust her anymore than my neighbor, however. Neither one of them would be invited into my home.

Shoshana

This post characterizes the problem on so many levels, consciously and unconsciously.

Well done, Ann Coulter.

219 wargammer2005  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:16:11pm

re: #141 Liam76

People would be flipping out here if somebody said the US would be a better place if we were all muslim. This is no different.

liar

220 Tman71  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:16:22pm

re: #68 A Kiwi Infidel

I have read all the reply's yet, but so far Kiwi has it exactly right.

221 looking closely  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:16:37pm

re: #199 Daisy

Ann Coulter is an anorexic bleached blond bitch. Ooops wait a moment, that wasn't offensive, I was just saying what I was thinking. Yeah right. The woman says whatever stupid thought comes into her head and that is offensive.


I honestly don't think you are giving her enough credit.
She isn't a regular "pundit" by coming on TV programs with nothing prepared to say.
You don't think she knew that what she said was going to be incredibly offensive/provocative?
Of course she did, the same way that she knew that saying she wished John Edwards would be assassinated would be.
Its not like this is the first s#$tstorm she has brought on herself.

Hey Charles, looky at Coulter!
She got you to put a thread about her on LGF and have lots of angry people talk about her!
Clever little mink!

222 57Chevy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:16:58pm

the 'outrage' is silly.

Of course a Christian will believe that Christianity is closer to the truth than another religion and that in being closer to the 'truth' one is closer to perfection.

I expect that to be implicitly true of any religion's devout followers.

223 Fjordman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:17:20pm
Ann Coulter is an anorexic bleached blond bitch.

You suffer from blondophobia. I'm Scandinavian and take great offense from this! Not all blond bitches suffer from anorexia.

224 wargammer2005  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:17:22pm

re: #215 lawhawk

so history and truth are not irrelavent?

great...

stop the world, i want to get off now please.

225 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:17:24pm

re: #107 LanceKates

re: #80 Judith

I am reminded of the "Do unto others" thing. Perhaps if Ann thought a little more about the fact that Jews generally regard a conversion to Christianity not as just another upgrade on their religion (like they way they can an upgrade their computer system), but rather see at as Jews do, as the utter obliteration of the Jew involved, one that is nearly as bad as having a violent Muslim just outright kill them in a suicide bombing, they might not be so quick to promote conversion.

I find the eqivalance to islamic bombing to be rather offensive.

Tough. Have you ever sat with a religious family whose son just announced he was renouncing Judaism because he found Jesus? I said "nearly as bad" and that's how I see it. Not as bad but certainly bad.

226 cosmo  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:17:34pm

re: #189 jcm

I'm not disagreeing, but it did not require the death of Jesus at the hands of the Jews. It was the Sanhedrin that wanted his death--and did what they could to bring it about because he represented a threat to their power.

Interesting how contemporary U.S. political practice has a way of mimicking world religious history.

For the record, I'm no anti-Semite. I'm a descendant of Jacob/Israel myself. The fact that any Christian religion would still discriminate against Jews on the basis of their "complicity" in the death of Jesus Christ, although a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, is certainly anything but "Christian" behavior.

227 jamgarr  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:17:39pm

re: #213 wargammer2005


Ann Coulter again demonstrate the complete inability of those that trash her to read and comprehend.

Seriously, dude, take a chill pill

228 rtheyserius  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:17:51pm

Reading the transcript in the foxnews.com link, as opposed to the subsequent paraphrasations, what she said is pretty standard, traditional Christian thinking. It's just that standard, traditional Christian thinking is no longer to be tolerated in this country.

Thanks, Media Matters, for reminding me of Ann Coulter. I just ordered a copy of her new book.

229 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:17:55pm

re: #136 Maine's Michael
Good point. Historically speaking, antisemitism has come from the right. Left wing antisemitism is a relatively new phenomenon, Coulter's statement doesn't make it any easier for Jews to flee to the right.

230 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:18:03pm

re: #216 MandyManners

re: #207 storagemanager


Bingo...she doean't care about the damage she causes...just the payoff...

In a capitalist system, isn't that the standard?

She claims to Christian...then does damage to image...

231 AG in Houston  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:18:19pm

re: #188 Maine's Michael

The schisms between Ashk/Seph. are diminishing quite a bit.

It is the ultra orthodox of both sides that are destroying the country and keeping the bigotry alive.

They are disgusting human beings who need to get a life and join the modern world where the Ann Coulter's of the world can be repulsed with a "No thank you" as opposed to a gun.

That is my point.

232 wargammer2005  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:18:35pm

re: #218 Globular Cluster

no that post demonstrate why Ann is 100% correct in what she says.

democrats are TRAIOTRS and have been for over 60 years
those that support them are supporting TRAIOTRS.

really very simple

233 Alouette  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:18:39pm

re: #105 Judith

re: #89 AG in Houston

Okay, I understand now and having had some terrible run ins with religious fanatics within my own community I reluctantly and very sadly agree with you.

I've had some terrible run ins with anti-religious fanatics on LGF and I think AG is full of scheiss.

234 zeir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:18:53pm

#176 Lance

Eight years before I was born; recently enough for me...

235 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:19:14pm

re: #225 Judith

once again, the comparison of christianity to the terrorists is woefully disgusting and something that I wouldn't expect of anyone better than those on kos.

236 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:19:20pm

re: #206 Big Al

I judge people by their public statements and comments to which I have access. I couldn't care less about their pedigrees. Many students attend e.g. Columbia, a highly selective school. Most of them are idiots. Oh well.

237 GGMac  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:19:26pm

#59 sffilk

You've given some examples of horrific treatment of Jews over the centuries, by Christians. Perhaps you'd consider less specificity in your description, such as "some Christians", or "some Christian denominations" as having been the perpetrators of those actions.

Perhaps you're not aware that nowhere in the New Testament are Christians instructed to do any of the examples you cited: ghettos, murders, pogroms, expulsions, the Inquisition, even the wishes of the first Dutch governor of New Amsterdam. Those horrors were committed in violation of Jesus' instructions to His followers.

Readers of your comment might possibly misconstrue your intent and in error have the perception that you think Christians don't like Jews.

Let me assure you this is not the case, and Christians - as a thelogical belief - consider Jews God's chosen people, and it is therefore our duty, and honor, to strive for Jews' and Israel's survival - to the death, if necessary.

238 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:19:36pm

re: #59 sffilk

No fair bringing up history!

239 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:20:16pm

re: #209 LanceKates

Yes Lance, but schools are liberal land, so we both know that is never going to happen.

I went to a high school where it was not uncommon to have guns on campus. Kids went hunting after class. Of course that was before crazy school shootings.

240 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:20:20pm

re: #203 Maine's Michael

We Jews tend to look at where the rubber meets the road.

Where would that be?

Not enough of us to absorb 'mistakes'.

Jesus Christ was a Jew. You've been around longer than that. You are still here. Still able to worship as you choose. You had that 'right' when you were born, and are entitled to it. The Founding Fathers did nothing more than codify it. I won't persecute you, nor will those of my faith persecute you. We should be learning from our mistakes and not dwelling on them.

241 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:20:25pm
242 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:21:00pm

re: #205 hous bin pharteen

Good vent.

It's a high school, full of high schoolers and adults.
They teach the students to cower and get shot.

It just takes a handful of able bodied individuals to rush the [deleted] and drag his a** to the ground. Okay, he's going to get a couple of shots off and get a couple of you. SO WHAT HE'S GONNA' SHOOT YOUR A** ANYWAY!

Better yet turn school from gun free helpless victim zones into, People have guns here zones, and you try something you will not get more than three steps or more than one shot.

243 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:21:01pm

re: #234 zeir

and that event was?

244 AG in Houston  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:21:12pm

re: #233 Alouette

Of course you do.

245 looking closely  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:21:30pm

re: #216 MandyManners

re: #207 storagemanager


Bingo...she doean't care about the damage she causes...just the payoff...

In a capitalist system, isn't that the standard?

Its expected that money will motivate people in a capitalist system, though its not the only motivator.

You can still be mercenary but have things you won't do for money, and/or a code of personal belief.

Lets be blunt here, Coulter makes her living by pushing people's buttons, not by "selling" an ideology, and . . .shocker, here she's done it again.

Again, though she is mouthing Christian dogma to offend people (and look how its succeeded), I don't think she even really believes what she is saying. Since when is Coulter the paragon of Christian moral virtue?

246 Liam76  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:21:32pm

re: #201 baal32

re: #141 Liam76


People would be flipping out here if somebody said the US would be a better place if we were all muslim. This is no different.

1) Numerous people in US Muslim organizations have said exactly that, with very little coverage from US media
2) More importantly when people are outraged at this prospect the primary reason is that Jews and Christians (in contemporary society) share an almost identical set of moral values whereas when Ibrahim Hooper calls for the US to be Muslim he's including the imposition of Shari'a which is in direct conflict with the tolerance that this nation
was built on

1) Doesn't excuse her saying it, it is just as wrong no matter who says it.
2) The jews and christians who share values in western society aren't the ones who think people would be better off if they were all one religion. The general values we share, at least the ones I think of, include accepting other religions, include allowing people to live how they want as long as it doesn't harm you.

247 coquimbojoe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:21:37pm

re: #152 segesta

I'm a loyal lizard, but Coulter is a bomb-throwing moron, the Keith Olbermann of the Right.

Bomb throwing maybe. But she debates anyone (unlike Olberman) and generally has her facts straight (unlike Olberman).

248 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:21:48pm

re: #232 wargammer2005

re: #218 Globular Cluster

no that post demonstrate why Ann is 100% correct in what she says.

democrats are TRAIOTRS and have been for over 60 years
those that support them are supporting TRAIOTRS.

really very simple

Go back to your World of Warcraft. Come back when you've slain a few more orcs.

249 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:22:00pm

re: #200 Cygnus

re: #68 A Kiwi Infidel


Art Katz, a Jewish man who believes in Jesus of Nazareth as is Messiah and who has recently departed this mortal world, tells how he was witnessing to a fellow Jew, a businessman from NY. The man became angry at Art and exclaimed "You are trying to destroy my Jewishness"

Art replied, "No, I am trying to make it complete"

Note, he did not say "perfect", but Complete. There is a big difference.


Amen. Some Messianic Jews are more Jewish than some of the secular, liberal Jews out there. None of us will be 'perfect' until we see Y'shua face to face.


And they are blessed with an understanding of scripture way beyond us mere gentiles. Jacob Prasch is another, from Moriel

250 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:22:22pm

re: #200 Cygnus

re: #68 A Kiwi Infidel

Art Katz, a Jewish man who believes in Jesus of Nazareth as is Messiah and who has recently departed this mortal world, tells how he was witnessing to a fellow Jew, a businessman from NY. The man became angry at Art and exclaimed "You are trying to destroy my Jewishness"

Art replied, "No, I am trying to make it complete"

Note, he did not say "perfect", but Complete. There is a big difference.

Amen. Some Messianic Jews are more Jewish than some of the secular, liberal Jews out there. None of us will be 'perfect' until we see Y'shua face to face.

A Messianic Jew is a Christian. He may indeed observe more Jewish laws than a lot of Jews, but he's still a Christian and NOT a Jew, except in the tribal by birth sense so that if he repents his apostacy he has a place to come back to.

Think "I”m a Christian Bhuddist" or "I'm a Islamic Christian." Doesn't work.

251 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:22:24pm

O/T

World's highest gig (byobo-bring your own bottled oxygen)

/Imagine having to hump your gear up there!

252 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:22:42pm

Galloping Granny,

Is there a particular part of the letter that contains the "submit or die" passage?

My reading so far is that while the scholars weren't too happy with some of the Pope's comments, they're saying a lot of things I wish they'd said before. But regardless, I'm not seeing anything like a call for submission. Yet, anyway...

253 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:22:47pm

re: #198 Globular Cluster

And this is fine? It's OK to write a bunch of uninteresting, divisive crap that damages anti-idiotarian goals, because she's "selling books"? Of course, she's free to do it, but that doesn't make her anything less than an unprincipled fool, especially when she claims so much to be principled.

C'mon.

Sheesh. Again, I didn't say it was "fine." I said I can't get worked up about it, because I don't expect any better from her. How does that get translated to me saying it's "fine?"

254 galloping granny  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:22:48pm

re: #205 hous bin pharteen

Please excuse my venting, but this pisses me off!
Watching the video on Fox of the kids in that Ohio school during the shooting.
What the hell is wrong with school admin people?

The shooter is IN the school.
He is shooting people IN the school.
I can not recall an instance where a shooter left the school to chase someone.
I can not recall once did the cops go in a school and shoot a gunmen.
They wait out side till he runs out of ammo and kills himself.
GET THE DAMN KIDS OUT OF THE SCHOOL AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!

What?
If the school catches fire they are going to keep the kids inside till the fire department shows up? Then the fireman sit outside till the fire burns itself out.

Some years ago the son of a friend of one of my sisters happened to be sitting in his fourth or fifth grade classroom with the top of his BIC pen in his mouth. Biting on it. You know that little blue thing? Well, he swallowed it - straight into his lungs. Couldn't speak. So the "teacher" sends him walking - alone - down to the principals office. In the principals' office they did at least recognize that he needed first aid, so they sent him (again walking alone) to find the janitor himself. He died along the way. Nobody in the school knew first aid. And to this day, teachers in most states are not required to have ANY first aid training - ever.

So, to answer your question - probably, yes that is exactly what they would do.

255 Alouette  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:23:01pm

re: #151 AG in Houston


The Ultra Orthodox nut job Jjews should move to Iran and be at one with Mahmoud instead of throwing rocks at seculars who drive on Shabbat.

Do you carry?

I think I'll warn my in-laws in Houston to watch their backs.

256 Daisy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:23:36pm

re: #221 looking closely

"Its not like this is the first s#$tstorm she has brought on herself."

I get your point (which does not negate my point - that she's a stupid bitch) and I agree.

As far as the s#$ (why not add a few more $$$?) storm she's brought on herself .. I frankly don't care what she's brought upon herself but I do care what she's brought upon religious tolerance and ecumenism. The woman's statements were anti-Semitic, pure and simple.

257 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:23:42pm

re: #245 looking closely

re: #216 MandyManners


re: #207 storagemanager

Bingo...she doean't care about the damage she causes...just the payoff...

In a capitalist system, isn't that the standard?

Its expected that money will motivate people in a capitalist system, though its not the only motivator.

You can still be mercenary but have things you won't do for money, and/or a code of personal belief.

Lets be blunt here, Coulter makes her living by pushing people's buttons, not by "selling" an ideology, and . . .shocker, here she's done it again.

Again, though she is mouthing Christian dogma to offend people (and look how its succeeded), I don't think she even really believes what she is saying. Since when is Coulter the paragon of Christian moral virtue?


Bingo...She does damage on purpose!

258 galloping granny  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:23:48pm

re: #212 Cognito

re: #181 galloping granny

I'm looking for the original letter now, Granny...

Search the last couple of threads Cognito. Somebody posted a link to the pdf

259 Liam76  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:24:20pm

re: #219 wargammer2005

re: #141 Liam76

People would be flipping out here if somebody said the US would be a better place if we were all muslim. This is no different.

liar

I meant flipping out "here" as in on this website, general public likes to ignore comments like that from muslims.

260 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:24:21pm

re: #226 cosmo

Who ever you "blame" it was part of the plan. The Jews the Romans, it is oxymoronic to "blame" some one for what in Christian theology is planned and necessary death of Jesus. Especially to act against a people based on something done years ago.

261 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:24:31pm

re: #258 galloping granny

re: #212 Cognito

re: #181 galloping granny

I'm looking for the original letter now, Granny...

Search the last couple of threads Cognito. Somebody posted a link to the pdf

I'll certainly do that. In the meantime, do you mind sharing with me why you feel there's a "submit or die" threat in the letter, yourself?

262 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:24:40pm

I also think Coulter's statement makes a good case for the creation of Israel. Antisemitism is alive and well in leftist Europe and is just below the surface of the religious right here in America.

263 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:24:44pm

re: #185 LanceKates

re: #154 Judith


We're not discussing evil people who used Christianity to kill jews. We're discussing Ann Coulter and you're moving goalposts to continue to compare christians to islamic bombers.

It is disgusting.

I'll repeat myself.

"So to flippantly dismiss a Jew's unease about Ann's comments is a bit insensitive."

264 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:25:08pm

re: #230 storagemanager

re: #216 MandyManners


re: #207 storagemanager

Bingo...she doean't care about the damage she causes...just the payoff...

In a capitalist system, isn't that the standard?

She claims to Christian...then does damage to image...

I was speaking of damage to conservative politics.

265 galloping granny  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:25:19pm

re: #252 Cognito

Galloping Granny,

Is there a particular part of the letter that contains the "submit or die" passage?

My reading so far is that while the scholars weren't too happy with some of the Pope's comments, they're saying a lot of things I wish they'd said before. But regardless, I'm not seeing anything like a call for submission. Yet, anyway...

Gotta go. Read some of the comments that others have posted here regarding this letter for the Christian perspective - and others too of course.

266 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:25:32pm

re: #152 segesta

I'm a loyal lizard, but Coulter is a bomb-throwing moron, the Keith Olbermann of the Right.


Olbermann is just an idiot. More like the Michael Moore of the Right. Not a perfect comparison either, but he isn't stupid.


She should know better.

267 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:25:48pm

re: #203 Maine's Michael

re: #195 Cap'n DOC

We Jews tend to look at where the rubber meets the road.

Coulda shoulda woulda doesn't cut it.

Not enough of us to absorb 'mistakes'.

forgiveness is a Christian principle...you don't have to forget..but it is divine to forgive...there will always be bad "Christians" ( I for one, saw nothing Christ-like in Torqemata's history)...smite them, overlook them, whatever...I am VERY PROUD of looking at this thread late and seeing those of the chosen realizing that offering Salvation in it's truest since is like the presentation of a gift, and done out of love and admiration when it's done right...it is actually very complimentary in it's purest form..

268 Ma Sands  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:25:57pm
From my reading, Coulter was simply stating standard Christian doctrine—with a little extra edginess to get Deustch wound up. Looks like it worked, and now she’ll sell some more books as a result.


Charles, you're funny. I love it! :)

269 Liam76  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:26:03pm

re: #217 LanceKates

re: #208 Liam76

I forget, which side tries to bomb you for not being one of them?

I am not arguing which religion is better. I am arguing it is offensive to tell people they should change their belief system, because it is what you believe. It doesn't matter if it is athiests, muslims or christians doing it.

270 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:26:13pm

re: #262 Killgore Trout

What a load. The United States, and Christianity therein, is the greatest ally Israel has on this planet.

271 galloping granny  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:26:18pm

re: #261 Cognito

re: #258 galloping granny

re: #212 Cognito

re: #181 galloping grannyI'm looking for the original letter now, Granny...

Search the last couple of threads Cognito. Somebody posted a link to the pdf

I'll certainly do that. In the meantime, do you mind sharing with me why you feel there's a "submit or die" threat in the letter, yourself?

Like I said, I have to go- time to play taxi. Search my comments over the last few hours and it should be pretty clear.

272 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:26:18pm

re: #250 Judith

re: #200 Cygnus


re: #68 A Kiwi Infidel

Art Katz, a Jewish man who believes in Jesus of Nazareth as is Messiah and who has recently departed this mortal world, tells how he was witnessing to a fellow Jew, a businessman from NY. The man became angry at Art and exclaimed "You are trying to destroy my Jewishness"

Art replied, "No, I am trying to make it complete"

Note, he did not say "perfect", but Complete. There is a big difference.


Amen. Some Messianic Jews are more Jewish than some of the secular, liberal Jews out there. None of us will be 'perfect' until we see Y'shua face to face.

A Messianic Jew is a Christian. He may indeed observe more Jewish laws than a lot of Jews, but he's still a Christian and NOT a Jew, except in the tribal by birth sense so that if he repents his apostacy he has a place to come back to.

Think "I”m a Christian Bhuddist" or "I'm a Islamic Christian." Doesn't work.


Incorrect, a messianic Jew knows they are no longer bound by the Law, for to fail in just one aspect of the Law is to be judged by the whole of the Law. The Truth that sets them, and us, free, is that we are saved by Grace, though Faith. A Faith in the atoning work of Christ on the Cross.

273 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:26:24pm

re: #234 zeir

#176 Lance

Eight years before I was born; recently enough for me...

Are you claiming that the Nazis were Christians?

274 Kenneth  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:26:44pm

Terrorist of FIRST TWIN TOWERS ATTACK CLAIMS HE HAS CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY

Ramzi Yousef, the mastermind head thug of the first terrorist attack on the World Trade Center, claims he converted from Islam to Christianity, Scott Pelley reports in a story that brings viewers inside the secretive "Supermax" prison where he is being held. Pelley also reports that some 900 force feedings were performed on other al-Qaeda terrorists who went on repeated hunger strikes to protest conditions at the Colorado top-security federal prison. The 60 MINUTES segment will be broadcast Sunday Oct. 14 (7:30-9:00 PM, ET/7:00-9:00 PM, PT) on the CBS Television Network.

The prison in Florence, Colo., which the government calls ADX-Florence for Administrative Maximum, houses the nation's toughest and most infamous criminals, such as Olympic bomber Eric Rudolph, would-be 9/11 terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui, Oklahoma City bomber Terry Nichols and shoe bomber Richard Reid. 60 MINUTES obtained exclusive footage of prisoners inside the facility, where special-case prisoners are allowed only a phone call a month, spend 23 hours a day in their 12-by-7 cells and can get mail only from people approved by the prison.

Robert Hood, its warden from 2002 to 2005, says Yousef was a special case. He never left his cell because he did not want to face the indignity of a strip search required for recreation. "He has that Charlie Manson look," says Hood of Yousef. "He has some charisma about him. He's in [prison] uniform, but you know that there's a powerful person you're looking at," Hood says. Told that Yousef has begun leaving his cell and now claims to be a Christian, Hood says, "He's playing a game with someone. If he's doing that, he's doing it for the reaction...He is the real deal," he tells Pelley. As a Muslim, Yousef prayed almost every hour, remembers Hood.

Other Qaeda terrorists protested the special conditions with hunger strikes that Hood had to end with force feedings. "I probably... authorized, conducted 350, maybe 400 involuntary feedings," recalls Hood. "You could have one person, three meals a day for...two months."

Pelley also speaks with a corrections officer inside ADX-Florence, who tells him what she heard on 9/11 after terrorist prisoners saw the destruction on their televisions. "We had a lot of them jump up and down. ...scream and yell and clap and they were very excited," says Barbara Batulis, who heads the prison's staff union. She also characterizes the Muslim extremists as needy. "They want more than what they have coming," she says. "They want extra toilet paper...writing paper...extra envelopes and if you can't give them, they want to see a supervisor right then and there."

Batulis would rather work among the other prisoners because she is female. "It's very obvious, [Muslim extremists] just look at you with sheer disdain." Hate can turn into threats. "A terrorist inmate threatened to kill my family, because I was doing my job," Batulis tells Pelley. Batulis says the prison needs more officers. "...We are very short staffed. I firmly believe that staff lives are at stake," she says.

Call me sceptical...

275 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:26:55pm

re: #240 Cap'n DOC

re: #203 Maine's Michael

We Jews tend to look at where the rubber meets the road.

Where would that be?

Not enough of us to absorb 'mistakes'.

Jesus Christ was a Jew. You've been around longer than that. You are still here. Still able to worship as you choose. You had that 'right' when you were born, and are entitled to it. The Founding Fathers did nothing more than codify it. I won't persecute you, nor will those of my faith persecute you. We should be learning from our mistakes and not dwelling on them.

Jews look at history. History repeats, or stutters . . whatever.

The USA is a 'golden land' today. Tomorrow? Who knows.

276 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:26:56pm

re: #271 galloping granny

Will do, ma'am. Thanks.

277 The Jinxmedic  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:27:17pm

Fife borders Tacoma, North on I-5. (technically "East", but North if you drive.)

278 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:27:22pm
279 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:27:40pm

re: #263 Judith

Who said anything about unease? More goalpost moving.

You compared christianity to islamic terrorism.

now, that someone is calling you on it (me) you're trying to play a victim by claiming that I'm dismissing 'unease'?

You compared Christianity to islamic terrorism... that's not 'unease'

280 SnakeSpit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:28:26pm

re: #194 Lorenska
I really worry that the vocal minority will succeed in getting her banned from some venues, with the threat that anyone who now gives her airtime will be considered a hatemongering anti-semite.

Not to worry. If her 'faggot' remark didn't get her banned, these remarks won't do anything except up her ratings and popularity. The homosexual activists are much more militant and well finananced than the Jews. I know, I know, the zionists control all the wealth and all the power. Spit!

281 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:28:29pm

re: #245 looking closely

She's good at what she does: promote herself.

Gee. What other profession is based on that?

282 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:28:51pm

re: #273 MandyManners

re: #234 zeir


#176 Lance

Eight years before I was born; recently enough for me...


Are you claiming that the Nazis were Christians?

You go, girl!

283 hous bin pharteen  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:29:05pm

re: #254 galloping granny

That is simply horrible.
That never should have happened.
And what the heck was a janitor supposed to do?
Sheesh.

284 newsjunkie_ky  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:29:23pm

re: #229 Killgore Trout

re: #136 Maine's Michael
Good point. Historically speaking, antisemitism has come from the right. Left wing antisemitism is a relatively new phenomenon, Coulter's statement doesn't make it any easier for Jews to flee to the right.


Historically, slavery was defended by the left (democrats) and defeated by the right (republicans). You can't keep bringing up 'historical' rationalizations to defend your point.

285 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:29:23pm

re: #269 Liam76

well no, you're comparing christianity to islam.

Again, which religion bombs people who are not like them?

286 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:29:37pm

re: #262 Killgore Trout

Excellent. History shows the Jews always get it from both sides. They are the enemy all can agree on. Look at the muslims and the leftists, gays, and lesbians, allied in this regard.

287 zeir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:29:55pm

Plenty of Nazis went to Lutheran church, plenty of Polish accomplices went to Mass every day. Absolutely.

288 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:30:01pm

re: #273 MandyManners

probably. Not the first time I've heard that.

I've even seen people here claim that the nazis were christians and that the christians were behind it all.

289 Big Al  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:30:48pm

#211 Judith

You characterized conversion to Christianity as an event "that is nearly as bad as having a violent Muslim just outright kill [one] in a suicide bombing." I do not think that is an apt or appropriate analogy. No offense.

290 sffilk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:30:51pm

re: #64 Ojoe

re: #59 sffilk

I hope as a Christian, that all those bad things are over, past, and recognized as mistakes by us all.

I hope so as well. However, there are still people out there who say that the only way I'll get to heaven is to believe in their version of religion. That would include, but would not be limited to, Mormons, Muslims, and a LOT of Christians.

291 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:30:54pm

re: #281 MandyManners

re: #245 looking closely

She's good at what she does: promote herself.

Gee. What other profession is based on that?

Cleaning my monitor AGAIN!

292 zeir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:31:42pm

Also, for instance, missionizing is genocide. When the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran church sponsors Jews for Jesus, they are trying to finish Hitler's work. Now we watch our backs...

293 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:31:48pm

Even the polish underground/resistance tried to extort the Warsaw ghetto Jews, selling them guns and bullets at extortionate prices.

294 Daisy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:31:52pm

re: #223 Fjordman

Ann Coulter is an anorexic bleached blond bitch.
You suffer from blondophobia. I'm Scandinavian and take great offense from this! Not all blond bitches suffer from anorexia.

And not all blonds use bleach :) ... but, hey you're Scandanavian so you ought to know.

from Very Blond Daisy who ain't telling another thing about my hair color.

295 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:31:53pm

re: #272 A Kiwi Infidel

How about we take the argument to alt.messianic.jew or some such place where this is debated fully rather then waste time here. You will never convince me that any Jew who has accepted Jesus is anything but 100% Christian and 0% Jewish.

296 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:32:00pm

re: #282 A Kiwi Infidel

I'm just bewildered.

Maybe it's a good thing that it's almost time to go get The Kid from school.

297 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:32:26pm

re: #269 Liam76

re: #217 LanceKates


re: #208 Liam76

I forget, which side tries to bomb you for not being one of them?


I am not arguing which religion is better. I am arguing it is offensive to tell people they should change their belief system, because it is what you believe. It doesn't matter if it is athiests, muslims or christians doing it.

How can it be offensive when a person offers what they believe is God's greatest gift to mankind? If you don't want it, refuse it! It should be the ultimate compliment that a person cares about another enough to offer them what they deem is a better way...whether you agree or not...it imparts a sense or worth from one to the other...how can that be offensive? It's offensive to tell someone they're of value?

298 rtheyserius  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:32:30pm

Hey wait a second. If Coulter saying, "That is what Christians consider themselves: perfected Jews" is to be interpreted as claiming that Jews are imperfect and is therefore a statement of bigotry, what about Jews' claim to be God's chosen people -- to be interpreted as God preferring Jews over others -- more bigotry!

/not, and not

We've really got to get off all this semantic perfectionism. Let Jews believe they are God's chosen, and let Christians believe they are perfected Jews.

That kind of tolerance is good. The bad kind of tolerance is being OK with draping the Empire State Building in the colors of the one world religion whose literal goal is the destruction Christians, Jews, Hindus... and everyone else. (That would be Islam, for those who haven't been paying attention.)

299 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:32:31pm

re: #255 Alouette

re: #151 AG in Houston


The Ultra Orthodox nut job Jjews should move to Iran and be at one with Mahmoud instead of throwing rocks at seculars who drive on Shabbat.

Do you carry?

I think I'll warn my in-laws in Houston to watch their backs.

Before you rag too hard on AG, you should know he left the only home he ever really knew, in Texas, and answered his IDF draft notice, and was seriously injured by a Pali rock thrower.

300 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:33:00pm

re: #287 zeir

Plenty of Nazis went to Lutheran church, plenty of Polish accomplices went to Mass every day. Absolutely.

THEY WERE NOT TRUE CHRISTIANS!

301 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:33:01pm

See why I don't care what Ann Coulter says or writes, and never link to her? This thread is a case in point.

302 Cygnus  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:33:06pm

re: #210 Fjordman

#189: Actually, Roman authorities killed Jesus. But yes, this "the Jews killed Jesus" thing has been a force behind many pogroms.

We all killed Jesus.
"Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows...He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way. And the LORD hath laid upon Him the iniquity of us all."

From Isaiah 53

303 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:33:09pm

re: #143 Cognito

You forgot the /sarc tag.

304 sffilk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:33:28pm

re: #69 AG in Houston

re: #59 sffilk

By the way, the no thanks always works and in case it doesn't than I will walk away. If anyone chases me down, then that is my queue to get physical.

No one gets physical with me unless it's Mrs. AG in Houston.

Respectfully, I disagree. I have had more than enough people try to convert me where they believe "no, thank you" means "I've got to try harder to convert this person."

305 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:33:38pm
306 snowman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:33:41pm

HooRah Ann. She is performing a fundamental and effictive strategy in dealing with the left...She goads them and laughs at them. Humor is one of the few ways to deal with idiots-without-reason.

"If Democrats Had Any Brains.." is hilarious.

Thank you Ann.

307 deseeded  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:34:01pm

I think the biggest problem the majority of people have with Ann Coulter is that they expect a woman to act a certain way and think before she speaks.

I actually find her amusing and a good counterweight to some of the "I'm so liberal, I set my brain free because I don't believe in repression" Lefties. Sometimes it's just too tiring (and easy) to pick on the them.

I also personally think she likes the way her Adam's Apple feels moving up and down on her neck during these outbursts of verbal diarrhea. :p

308 PeaceAtAllCosts  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:34:08pm

re: #241 buzzsawmonkey

I agree wholeheartedly with your post. For the majority of American Jews, their real religion is leftest dogma and hatred of Bush. Torah and the laws mean nothing. They selectively follow "Tikkun Olam", but only if it involves helping Muslims, crying about the environment or hating George Bush.

As to your point about supporting Israel...The Jewish population in America and Israel spit on the country. Jews who considered themselves Zionists were down to 17% in a pole taken in 2004. [Link: www.danielpipes.org...] Non observant Jews are sick of being Jews-sick of fighting and sick of winning.

As Far as Coulter goes...What an Asshat! I know my Christian friends think I am going to go to hell for not accepting their savior. I accept that-but do me a favor while you are supporting Israel and the Jewish people...keep it to yourself!

309 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:34:08pm

re: #287 zeir

Ahh... so the holocaust was not the fault of Hitler, but part of a Christian goal to wipe out the Jews? That's your real belief?

Holy crap. I'm SO tired of this recycled lie.

Hitler wasn't a christian, the holocaust wasn't christian, christians weren't behind the holocaust, christians don't want to kill or wipe away the Jews, christians don't hold secret meetings to find ways of getting rid of Jews, nazis weren't christian, MANY christians died in the holocaust.

310 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:34:10pm

People...Islam is the enemy...first the Saturday people...then the Sunday people...they want us all dead.

311 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:34:14pm

re: #289 Big Al

Again I ask, have you ever sat with a religious Jewish family who has just been hit with such an announcement? Have you ever heard them discuss it and what it means to them? It is not as bad as terrorist death, but it is still pretty bad. If Christians really understood how bad, they would not keep pouring money into "saving" Jews, especially since Jews don't prosletize.

312 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:34:25pm

re: #295 Judith

re: #272 A Kiwi Infidel

How about we take the argument to alt.messianic.jew or some such place where this is debated fully rather then waste time here. You will never convince me that any Jew who has accepted Jesus is anything but 100% Christian and 0% Jewish.


Then why YOU ask Jacob, himself, at [Link: www.moriel.org...] I am sure he will disagree with.

313 Kenneth  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:34:28pm
314 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:34:29pm

re: #274 Kenneth

I am skeptical of jailhouse conversions as well. He is forgiven if he's sincere..but that doesn't mean he can avoid the worldly penalties for his actions.

315 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:34:30pm

re: #288 LanceKates

re: #273 MandyManners

probably. Not the first time I've heard that.

I've even seen people here claim that the nazis were christians and that the christians were behind it all.

Well, they've obviously never studied the Vril Society or other occultic sources of Nazism.

316 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:34:36pm

So let me get this straight.
One of the central tenants of Christianity is proselytizing. That makes some Jews feel bad, so we are supposed to just junk that part of our belief system just so you can feel better?
OK, let me think about that for a second...
Alright, I'm done, and the answer would be NO.
Deal with it.

I'm amazed at the seething hatred of Christianity by many Jews here that really should be devoting their efforts to more productive causes.

317 sffilk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:34:55pm

re: #74 Cap'n DOC

re: #59 sffilk

I suppose... But then you have the likes of Monsignor O'Flaherty.

Which is why he would be known as a "righteous gentile" in Israel. Ann Coulter is NOT a righteous gentile.

318 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:35:09pm

re: #290 sffilk

but of those three... mormons, muslims and christians... which group uses bombs to force you to convert?

Why even degrade christianity by comparing it to the islamic terrorists?

319 Daisy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:35:10pm

re: #301 Charles

See why I don't care what Ann Coulter says or writes, and never link to her? This thread is a case in point.

Um hmm, I see.

320 baal32  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:35:17pm

re: #190 Judith

Thanks for the outrage - just to clarify, what I'm saying is that if you THINK YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT SOMETHING, then that means you must think that people who think you're wrong are, themselves, wrong. Right? And consequently you would also think that they would be *more right* if they believed what you believe thus removing their wrongness. I think that's pretty solid logic. The fact that Jews don't prosletyze does not, in fact, mean that they believe in Jesus as the son of god, right? I may have mispoken when I said the Jews believed that Christians would be "better off" as Jews but my point still stands.

BTW I tried to express the fact that there is nothing wrong with a person wanting other people to believe what they believe and in fact is a natural and perfectly fine human behavior.

321 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:35:30pm

re: #301 Charles

Some things are just better not said, and discussed.

Because after all is said and done, the real external threats remain, yet those who are on the same team feel divided, at least a little bit.

322 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:35:40pm

Just received this email:

Nice to see you finally come out of the closet. You find nothing offensive about Coulter saying that Judaism should be discarded? Is that really "standard Christian doctrine"? Holy Heinrich Himmler, Batman!

Yep, now I'm Himmler, because I said this is all a ploy for Coulter to sell her books.

323 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:35:44pm

re: #291 jcm

Glad to help you keep your office clean!

Gotta' go. Play nice, Lizards.

We either stand together or fall to barbarism.

324 the rebbe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:35:44pm

Ann, you should really focus your efforts on the religion of pieces. Us Jews have been just fine schlepping and complaining for 4,000 years.

325 turn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:36:03pm

re: #253 Charles

Have you ever run a LGF religious affiliation poll? I would be curious to see how that would break down.

326 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:36:18pm

re: #298 rtheyserius

You obviously have NO IDEA what Jews think they were chosen for.

327 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:36:32pm

re: #292 zeir

Also, for instance, missionizing is genocide. When the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran church sponsors Jews for Jesus, they are trying to finish Hitler's work. Now we watch our backs...

You're not friggen serious. Jews for Jesus are trying to kill the jews?

This is akin to the troofers!

328 sffilk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:36:33pm

re: #78 UPNAK

re: #59 sffilk

Need I remind people that Christians have done more than just try to convert Jews over the last 1000+ years? Such wonderful things as ghettos, The Chmielnicki (sp?) murders, pogroms, expulsions, the Inquisition, heck, what about the fact that the first Dutch governor of Nieuw Amsterdam did all he could to keep Jews out of the new colony here?

"No thanks" doesn't always work, as history has shown.

Umm ghettos were LONG around before "Christians" they went under the name of another guise.

Sorry that one is quite the annoying peice that you should read about.

Uh, wrong. From [Link: www.dictionary.com:...]

[Origin: 1605–15; < It, orig. the name of an island near Venice where Jews were forced to reside in the 16th century < Venetian, lit., foundry for artillery (giving the island its name), n. deriv. of ghettare to throw < VL *ject%u0101re; see jet1]

329 Beagle  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:37:00pm

Judith must have had a bad experience personally with some Christians or something.

I'll just stay over here with the deistic empiricists out of spittle range.

330 turn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:37:06pm

re: #325 turn

religious = religion

331 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:37:13pm

re: #271 galloping granny

Hey Granny, I took a look at your thought regarding the letter's passage about there being one God without partner; it seems to me to be a reiteration of the First Commandment (or Second, depending on your faith). And further, letter's writers call it a common essential between the two religions -- which makes it pretty obvious they're offering a reiteration of the commandment, not a call against Christ.

That's my reading, anyway. I know most terrorists are Muslims, but I also believe that most Muslims aren't terrorists, so it's not hard for me to accept that this letter is what it purports to be: a gesture of goodwill. That doesn't mean I agree with all of it, or that I won't have quibbles, but I do appreciate the effort to find common ground.

332 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:37:16pm

BTW, I think if we Christians looked on how Jews feel about Christianity as the way Christians look as Mormons, except (with one noted exception) the Mormons never conducted mass expulsions or murders of Christians, we might do a little better job and be sympathetic.


Although one religion clearly came from the other, and owes allegiance to it and its Scripture, the original religion owes no allegiance to the descendant it considers to have strayed from the correct path.

333 Daisy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:37:29pm

re: #301 Charles

See why I don't care what Ann Coulter says or writes, and never link to her? This thread is a case in point.

Yikes! Instant regression :) .. me included!

334 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:37:45pm

re: #312 A Kiwi Infidel

I don't need to. I'm a regular monthly contributing member of Jews for Judaism. Why don't you go consult their website where they explain it quite well.

335 Uncle Joe  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:38:13pm

Little Donny Deutsch wanted to either
A - force Ann into admitting what a gigantic racist monster she is, or
B - find something that he - little Donny, a paragon of liberal virtue - could be offended by and play the victim, which is what all liberals do.

What Ann has to watch out for (and clearly she's aware of this because she is very intelligent) is the fat, establishment, liberal baby-boomers like Donny who live in great wealth and privilege and use outbursts of liberal rhetoric to prove to themselves and those around them that they are still the young, Nixon-protesting hipsters they imagine themselves to be. You cannot be a bigger phony than Donny Deutsch. Unless you're a Hollywood actor.

336 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:38:30pm

re: #322 Charles

sheesh.

337 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:38:41pm

re: #315 MandyManners

Oh they have, they just dismiss it because, despite the facts, they know the christians did it.

338 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:38:58pm

re: #327 LanceKates

You just don't get how Jews view conversion to Christianity do you? Why don't you go check out the Jews for Judaism website too.

339 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:39:01pm

re: #303 CyanSnowHawk

re: #143 Cognito

You forgot the /sarc tag.

Maybe I'm misreading the letter, but I don't find it abominable. I don't agree with every sentiment in it, but I also don't find it to be some sort of sneaky threat.

340 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:39:02pm
341 Alouette  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:39:15pm

re: #299 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

Before you rag too hard on AG, you should know he left the only home he ever really knew, in Texas, and answered his IDF draft notice, and was seriously injured by a Pali rock thrower.

My son left the only home he ever really knew, in Michigan, and volunteered for the IDF, and then after completing his service, was seriously injured by Yassamnickim at Amona. Somehow it didn't make him make him claim that secular Jews are subhumans who need to be shipped off to China or exterminated.

342 jcm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:39:33pm

Part of the problem with Ann's statement is within Christianity itself, we've done it to ourselves, and continue to do it.

It's the "fire insurance" Gospel; Convert or you'll burn in Hell! Then when the person refuse, the parting shot is "eternal Damnation." That at best turns people off, or pisses them off, the result is a negative impression of Christianity.

It's a offer, a gift and anyone is free to accept or reject as they choose. The last thing a true Christian wants to do is have someone be offend in such a way as they'll never be receptive to the offer in the future.

343 EC Marm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:39:41pm

Sometimes I'm with Ann, sometimes I'm not
On this, not. She's tossin' verbal bombs to sell books. And once again tie the lefts panties in a knot. She may believe what she says but she doesn't speak for me or my religion.

I have no interest in converting anyone to anything. I sometimes have trouble discovering the real truth about something that happened last week, much less hundreds or thousands of years ago. I'm more worried about tomorrow and what Church leaders are doing now, to prevent the errors of the past from happening again and maybe looking down the road a little bit. Because if history is any gauge, we're in for some even tougher times ahead.

344 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:39:47pm

re: #334 Judith

re: #312 A Kiwi Infidel

I don't need to. I'm a regular monthly contributing member of Jews for Judaism. Why don't you go consult their website where they explain it quite well.

I went looking at your previous ref, and came up short.

345 sffilk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:40:07pm

re: #102 buzzsawmonkey

re: #93 Killgore Trout

If Ibrahim Hooper had said this in an interview we'd all be freaking out about Islamofascism.

Islamofascists kill Jews, and justify proudly that they do so.

I haven't noticed a lot of Christians doing either lately.

Respectfully, the key word in your comment is lately.

346 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:40:16pm
Nice to see you finally come out of the closet. You find nothing offensive about Coulter saying that Judaism should be discarded? Is that really "standard Christian doctrine"? Holy Heinrich Himmler, Batman!

That's funny.

/Ron Paul!

347 dentate  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:40:22pm

re: #316 Jimmy The Clam

I don't see much seething hatred going on here. The most heated argument seems to be whether Messianic Jews are Christians or Jews. With some exceptions, we Jews here would rather not hear this kind of stuff from people like Coulter because it is annoying, but that is all. It certainly is not seething hatred of the Christian religion. As Buzzsaw has correctly pointed out, Jews have never ever believed that anyone but Jews needed to be Jewish, and fully accept the fact that other people have other faiths. Traditionally from the time of Isaiah they have hoped that one day the world would accept G-d as the only G-d, but not the particular way in which Jews are bound to the Torah. So, for the most part, we are just fine letting Christians be Christians, and Muslims be Muslims. We would prefer they let us alone as well, but far prefer the Coulter approach to the Ahmadinejad one..

A

348 jaybo  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:40:30pm

I'm a Jew and this incident is no big deal. Much like the Mel Gibson incident, it's a way for the Saudi loving/controlled MSM to put a rift between Christians and Jews. Don't let it happen!

349 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:40:41pm

re: #339 Cognito

re: #303 CyanSnowHawk


re: #143 Cognito

You forgot the /sarc tag.


Maybe I'm misreading the letter, but I don't find it abominable. I don't agree with every sentiment in it, but I also don't find it to be some sort of sneaky threat.


And I keep telling you, its NOT conversion, its completedness.

350 Tman71  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:41:12pm

It seems like there are two arguments going on here. One is Ann Coulter right or wrong for what she said, and two is it ok to want to convert, complete. etc. a Jew to become Christian.

Ann can definitely be offensive, but she probably does it just to sell books.

The bible tells Christians to " Go unto all the world proclaiming the gospel"
If you are a true Christian you need to follow this. Note the difference between "proclaim" the gospel and "If you don't covert to Islam, I will chop your head off". All true Christians that I know not only love the Jewish race, but are commanded to do so in the Bible.

351 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:41:29pm

re: #338 Judith

You don't quite get it. Comparing Christianity to islamic terrorists is below the par of what I'd expect from a troofer.

christians are not islamic terrorists, and you're not even willing to back away from your earlier assertion that they are!

352 baal32  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:41:31pm

re: #316 Jimmy The Clam

Hi Jimmy - you think you might be a little heavy handed with that whole "seething hatred of Christianity by many Jews" bit? While I totally agree that there is nothing wrong with prosletyzing I'm not entirely sure I'm onboard for your the-Jews-are-out-to-destroy-Christianity spiel.

353 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:41:54pm

re: #349 A Kiwi Infidel

re: #339 Cognito


re: #303 CyanSnowHawk

re: #143 Cognito
You forgot the /sarc tag.

Maybe I'm misreading the letter, but I don't find it abominable. I don't agree with every sentiment in it, but I also don't find it to be some sort of sneaky threat.

And I keep telling you, its NOT conversion, its completedness.


Oops, wrong quote, forget that, Can I sak for a delete?

354 Deseeded  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:42:00pm

re: #346 Dirk Diggler

Nice to see you finally come out of the closet. You find nothing offensive about Coulter saying that Judaism should be discarded? Is that really "standard Christian doctrine"? Holy Heinrich Himmler, Batman!

That's funny.

/Ron Paul!

Uh oh, someone is calling in the Hugh Army!

355 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:42:04pm
356 squarepeg  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:42:10pm

re: #228 rtheyserius

I just ordered a copy of her new book.

I riffled through a copy in a bookstore yesterday and it's crap.

357 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:42:25pm

re: #340 buzzsawmonkey

re: #322 Charles

Coulter didn't say that, and I don't think she believes it.

This is one Jew whose only problem with her remarks is that she has just made it that much more difficult for me or any of my like-minded friends to persuade moonbat Jews to reconsider their position.

right on buzz...big difference between "perfect" and "discard"! I just wish she didn't have to be so damn incindiary just to sell herself and her books!

358 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:42:49pm

Someone at World Zionist Conspiracy, Media Control Division, must have been sleeping on the job . . .

359 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:43:05pm

re: #340 buzzsawmonkey

I don't think a lot of the comments on this thread would help either.

360 madisonsfriend  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:43:14pm

I don't like Ann Coulter and I find her statement offensive. Of course, I never listen to her or buy her books either. I don't want anyone to tell me why I should convert- that is why I warn off the Jehovahs Witnesses and the Mormons. I told the last ones that if they ever rang my door bell again- I would have to report them for trespassing. Don't offer me your "gift" and i won't offer you mine(which has nothing to do with religion)

361 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:43:36pm

re: #338 Judith

re: #327 LanceKates

You just don't get how Jews view conversion to Christianity do you? Why don't you go check out the Jews for Judaism website too.


And I keep telling you it is NOT conversion, it is completedness

362 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:43:54pm

re: #329 Beagle

Actually, yes I did. Try a pedophile protected by Christians because he swore in Jesus name he didn't do it and if he was lying, then may Jesus make his tongue burst into flames. It didn't, so they protected him.

Now to be fair I recently found a Christian website that actually tells wives of pedophiles to leave their husbands and protect their children.

However none of that changes the fact that a lot of Christians have no concept of

a) how Jews feel about fellow Jews being converted to Christianity
b) a lot of people who called themselves Christians killed a lot of Jews so comments like Ann's are insensitive and stupid even though she herself would enver kill anyone nor was she advocating it.

363 looking closely  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:43:56pm

re: #257 storagemanager

Bingo...She does damage on purpose!


"Damage" is in the eye of the beholder.

Despite appearances, her "cause" isn't your "cause".

She is clearly being offensive on purpose to rile people up (or at least that's pretty clear to me, though apparently not to everyone here).

I'm with Charles 100% on this. If Coulter didn't have a history of pulling this sort of stunt again and again and deliberately pushing people's buttons, I might be offended. Because she does, not only am I not offended, I even question the sincerity of her statement.

364 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:44:06pm

re: #341 Alouette

re: #299 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet


Before you rag too hard on AG, you should know he left the only home he ever really knew, in Texas, and answered his IDF draft notice, and was seriously injured by a Pali rock thrower.

My son left the only home he ever really knew, in Michigan, and volunteered for the IDF, and then after completing his service, was seriously injured by Yassamnickim at Amona. Somehow it didn't make him make him claim that secular Jews are subhumans who need to be shipped off to China or exterminated.


I don't think AGs comment about the ultra-Orthodox and Iran actually implied a desire to send anyone anywhere. It is a little subtle, but it was more like a comparison than a recommendation or a wish.

365 Big Al  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:44:07pm

#236 Globular Cluster

Nor should you judge anyone other than on the basis of their own individual merit, certainly not on the basis of their "pedigree." Your analogy with Columbia students is compelling and accurate. But to be sure, Coulter is less likely to be unintelligent having succeeded as much as she has, than more likely to be unintelligent because she makes controversial and inflammatory comments which you find distasteful.

My point, if in fact I ever had one, was that her comments should not be viewed as being so impactful, or anything other than an attempt to shock people into buying her books. People who characterize Coulter's comments as being representative of traditional, rational, conservative views are either woefully foolish or ideologues themselves who will never be swayed one way or another. Simply put, I don't think she has the capacity to sway anti-Idiotarian converts back to the other side. Anyone undergoing such an epiphany in earnest would have done so after careful consideration and I don't think exposing them to Coulter would really make much of a difference.

366 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:44:12pm

re: #322 Charles

Just received this email:


Nice to see you finally come out of the closet. You find nothing offensive about Coulter saying that Judaism should be discarded? Is that really "standard Christian doctrine"? Holy Heinrich Himmler, Batman!

Yep, now I'm Himmler, because I said this is all a ploy for Coulter to sell her books.

I know you're already cueing up the photoshop picture of you with the dress (and moustache?)...admit it.

/

367 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:44:21pm

re: #358 Maine's Michael

Someone at World Zionist Conspiracy, Media Control Division, must have been sleeping on the job . . .

You must have missed the memo. Just a moment ago someone said the Saudis now control the media.

Because, you know. It must be a conspiracy...

368 BenZacharia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:44:24pm

Rabbi Akiva wanted everyone to accept Bar Kochba as the Moschiach in 135 and be perfected, since then 13 others have been proclaimed to be the Anointed One and if you accepted you could be 'perfected'. And lastly you can be perfected if you accept Schneerson as the 'Righteous Branch'.

In the beginning it was 'just another sect' of Judaism. Saul always referred to himself as a Jew, a Pharisee. 'Christian' was a derogatory term first hung on the 'Followers of the Way' and the 'Nazarenes' in the city of Antioch. Just as 'Lizardroid' was meant to be a derogatory term for us, we turned it a round and revelled in it, so did SOME of them, then the goy highjacked the whole thing. "Hey Muffy hand me a cucumber sandwich on white with mayo." OH BOG!

369 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:44:40pm

re: #331 Cognito


You can find a pdf of the letter from the Muslim scholars here. My immediate impression is that while saying it wants to build on common ground, the letter (amid copious Qur'an quotes) never mentions Qur'an 5:17, which says that those who believe in the divinity of Christ are unbelievers, or 4:171, which says that Jesus was not crucified, or 9:30, which says that those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God are accursed, or 9:29, which mandates warfare against and the subjugation of Jews and Christians. It would seem to me that verses like these would need to be addressed in some way, even if only to give them some benign interpretation, if there is to be any true and honest dialogue.

I think Robert Spencer knows what he is talking about...don't you. [Link: jihadwatch.org...]

370 gman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:44:50pm

She definitely says whatever she feels. Unfortunately, many people mistakenly think she represents just- right- of- center conservatives, when in fact she is far right. I'm not sure why, but maybe it has something to do with the fact that she has a lot of mainstream conservative allies. Anyways, she has some great ideas sometimes, like the notion that liberalism is a religion in and of itself. It's just that the lack of thinking until after the fact part gets in the way big time.

371 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:44:51pm
Uh oh, someone is calling in the Hugh Army!

Hey this thread's already burning. Might as well douse it with gasoline and get my kicks before the whole thing goes up in flames.

372 baal32  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:44:56pm

re: #338 Judith

So you're saying that because Jews take a negative view of Jews who convert to Christianity we should prevent individuals from making up their own minds about their religion of choice?

Well, comrade, I suppose if its good for the motherland...

373 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:44:59pm

re: #331 Cognito

Apparently you don't know about the Divinity of Christ and what that means from the perspective of the mohammedan (who denies same).

We share nothing in common, Cognito. Nothing.

374 mjwsatx  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:45:03pm

Ann Coulter is a provocateur - and a damn good one at that. I have noticed that her opinion pieces on Townhall consistently draw the most comments. As an observant Jew and informed Republican, I know that Ann was only stating standard Christian doctrine. It is unfortunate that she did so in a forum that was bound to get the attention of a lot of leftists who grasp only the extremes of messages.

This Sunday evening I will be attending the 26th annual Night to Honor Israel at Cornerstone Church in San Antonio. Dennis Prager will be speaking at this year's event, along with Pastor Hagee. I will be standing, as I did last year, in a church filled to capacity alongside 5,000 Christians and we will all sing HaTikva - the national anthem of the State of Israel. Undoubtedly, they will make me feel honored and welcome, as they did last year. I also will know that each and every one of them believe that I will not be saved unless I convert to Christianity. As long as they welcome me and honor my faith - that's ok by me. As far as I'm concerned, Donnie Deutch and many of those left-leaning JINOs (Jews in name only) would be better human beings if they accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. At least then they would believe in something.

375 zeir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:45:07pm

To recap, somebody asked when was the last time Christians widely killed Jews. Well, just after WW II. With the exception of individuals like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Oscar Schindler, who are sought after and revered rightfully today by the State of Israel, Christian faith was not enough to prevent vast populations of churchgoers, and the Catholic Church, from cooperating with the Nazis. Sad but true.

376 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:45:47pm

re: #315 MandyManners

Nazis were not Christians. But a lot of Christians became Nazis and Martin Luther was a Christian and look what he had to say about Jews.

377 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:45:53pm

What is it with moonbats and their fetish for calling everyone they hate a Nazi? Pathetic.

378 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:46:13pm

BTW, for someone who has lived in the US all their lives to answer a draft notice from the land of their birth is as close to volunteering as one can get, as I seriously doubt the US enforces the draft law for Israel or any other nation.

379 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:46:27pm

re: #359 Killgore Trout

re: #340 buzzsawmonkey

I don't think a lot of the comments on this thread would help either.

no KT, but the BIG difference is we can talk about it and have gotten past killing each other over it...unlike others...

380 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:46:34pm

re: #360 madisonsfriend

What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness with a Skinhead?

Someone who rings your doorbell to tell YOU to 'Fuck off!'

381 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:46:42pm

re: #375 zeir

To recap, somebody asked when was the last time Christians widely killed Jews. Well, just after WW II. With the exception of individuals like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Oscar Schindler, who are sought after and revered rightfully today by the State of Israel, Christian faith was not enough to prevent vast populations of churchgoers, and the Catholic Church, from cooperating with the Nazis. Sad but true.

well, then who were the millions of christians killed in the holocaust?

I mean, if they were all in on it... christians... wanting to kill all the jews, then why were millions of christians killed as well?

382 sffilk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:46:50pm

re: #200 Cygnus

None of us will be 'perfect' until we see Y'shua face to face.

And that's where I take offense.

383 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:47:14pm

re: #373 Cap'n DOC

re: #331 Cognito

Apparently you don't know about the Divinity of Christ and what that means from the perspective of the mohammedan (who denies same).

We share nothing in common, Cognito. Nothing.

No offense, but you don't know what I believe, so please don't make it up as you go.

384 grumpy old codger  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:47:18pm

re: #154 Judith
I can understand you sense of discomfort. However, St. Stephen was not martyred by moslems nor was Saul on his way to Tarsus to deliver gift packages. Jews have blood on their hands, even if so directed by God, ex., Amelikites (ref. the Torah). No one is guilt free historically.
The events of the past, including pogroms, expulsions, the Holocaust, etc., can not be, nor should be, forgotten or overlooked. Nonetheless, I would hope and pray that Christianity was gone past that. Extremists of any religion can be the enemy.
If any Christian group advocated destruction of the Jews or of another Christian group, such as the Catholics, I would oppose them.
I can only hope that so many "sleeping" people wake up to the real 21st century threat, islam. (lower case intent.)

385 madisonsfriend  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:47:19pm

re: #361 A Kiwi Infidel

And we tell you that is wrong. Can you understand that our beliefs and yours are totally different? I understand that- I do not think the belief that Jesus is the Messiah is wrong- for Christians. I find it offensive that you want to tell us we are not complete. For me, the Messiah still has to arrive- and for you, he has come and will come again. And I have no issue with that.

386 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:48:28pm

re: #372 baal32

re: #338 Judith

So you're saying that because Jews take a negative view of Jews who convert to Christianity we should prevent individuals from making up their own minds about their religion of choice?

Well, comrade, I suppose if its good for the motherland...

Don't put words in my post that weren't there. I never said anything like that. You extrapolated my comments to the motherland position.

387 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:48:47pm

re: #363 looking closely

come to think of it..you may be right about the sincerity...I wonder when the last time Ann went to church was!? if she went recently, I hope she wasn't dressed like she was on Fox this morning or she would've raised some eyebrows!

388 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:48:48pm

Haven't seen anyone blame the Jews for killing Amekelites in a while.

389 rtheyserius  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:48:57pm

re: #326 Judith

re: #298 rtheyserius

You obviously have NO IDEA what Jews think they were chosen for.

That depends upon which Jews you ask.

My point was not to debate what all Jews think, only to point out that semantic perfectionism can be interpreted to make any point.

I'm far more concerned that so many American Jews are leftwing in their dhimmitude than that Ann Coulter thinks Christians are perfected Jews.

390 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:49:02pm

re: #367 Cognito

Just a moment ago someone said the Saudis now control the media.

That's proof of the sheer genius of the Jewish conspiracy, don't you see?

391 zeir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:49:11pm

Lance-

3 million non Jews. & many millions by Stalin. No argument with you there.

392 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:49:40pm

re: #381 LanceKates

I mean, if they were all in on it... christians... wanting to kill all the jews, then why were millions of christians killed as well?

You're an idiot.

393 J.S.  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:50:01pm

Oh boy. Hope everybody's happy now.. (Do I need a sarc tag?)

hmm..just a point, though, someone on this thread suggested that the Inquisition didn't kill Jews (or something to that effect) and the "Inquisition trials" were only for "Christians," well, in the Middle Ages (at the very beginning of the Inquisition) that was true. However, it rapidly changed and spread. So, by the time of the Spanish Inquisition, Jews were persecuted, so too the "new Christians" (those were Jewish converts). The Jewish converts to Christianity fared very, very badly indeed...(the marranos -- many secretly remained Jews, they had converted under duress)...tortured and burnt at the stake -- the "new Christians" were hated as much as Jews (if not worse.)

394 rtheyserius  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:50:15pm

re: #356 squarepeg

re: #228 rtheyserius


I just ordered a copy of her new book.

I riffled through a copy in a bookstore yesterday and it's crap.

Rush doesn't think so. I'll see what I think when I get it. I enjoyed all her previous books.

395 Alouette  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:50:44pm

re: #364 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

it was more like a comparison than a recommendation or a wish.

Alouette does not like being called a "disgusting human being" or being compared to Islamonazi fascists, not even if they are jolly guys you have had drinks with.

396 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:50:58pm

re: #362 Judith

re: #329 Beagle

Actually, yes I did. Try a pedophile protected by Christians because he swore in Jesus name he didn't do it and if he was lying, then may Jesus make his tongue burst into flames. It didn't, so they protected him.

Now to be fair I recently found a Christian website that actually tells wives of pedophiles to leave their husbands and protect their children.

However none of that changes the fact that a lot of Christians have no concept of

a) how Jews feel about fellow Jews being converted to Christianity
b) a lot of people who called themselves Christians killed a lot of Jews so comments like Ann's are insensitive and stupid even though she herself would enver kill anyone nor was she advocating it.


My apologies, Judith. Yes, there are a truckload, and more, of perverts and a'holes who call themselves Christians and drag the name of Christ through the mud. Many claim the Name, but are not. I doubt we will ever agree in this forum. I do urge you to read what Jews like Jacob Prasch and Art Katz have to say, afterall, you are free to disagree, but without reading it, you will have no foundation to base your refutation.

I'll butt out

397 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:51:04pm
398 sffilk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:51:09pm

re: #267 paxnhymn

forgiveness is a Christian principle...you don't have to forget..but it is divine to forgive...there will always be bad "Christians" ( I for one, saw nothing Christ-like in Torqemata's history)...smite them, overlook them, whatever...I am VERY PROUD of looking at this thread late and seeing those of the chosen realizing that offering Salvation in it's truest since is like the presentation of a gift, and done out of love and admiration when it's done right...it is actually very complimentary in it's purest form..

Respectfully, NO IT'S NOT, not when you say that in order to be saved I need to be an apostate to my beliefs, which is how it is perceived.

399 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:51:33pm

re: #389 rtheyserius

Point noted and accepted. I agree with you.

400 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:52:10pm

re: #381 LanceKates

Lance - I'm not going to repost a link I've already posted once on this thread, but it is an extremely inaccurate statement to make that the Catholic Church 'cooperated' with the Nazis.

re: #383 Cognito

What? Is this the Devil's Advocate speaking?

401 SnakeSpit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:52:18pm

re: #249 A Kiwi Infidel
And they are blessed with an understanding of scripture way beyond us mere gentiles

Ever heard of Holy Spirit being the one who gives interpretation and understanding?

402 dentate  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:53:08pm

I had hoped Charles would have picked this up, but here is as good a thread as any:

the Islamists really ARE the Zionists;

Protocols of the Elders of Turkey

Lunacy is alive and well and worshipping its Moon God.

403 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:53:08pm

re: #388 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

Haven't seen anyone blame the Jews for killing Amekelites in a while.

LOL! Point well taken Ed. I think there's been plenty of blood on all side's hand to go around, but it seems in recent times the Judeo-Christian community as a whole has grown up past that stage...will is-slum ever?


/i'm thinkin' not.

404 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:53:22pm

re: #352 baal32

re: #316 Jimmy The Clam

Hi Jimmy - you think you might be a little heavy handed with that whole "seething hatred of Christianity by many Jews" bit? While I totally agree that there is nothing wrong with prosletyzing I'm not entirely sure I'm onboard for your the-Jews-are-out-to-destroy-Christianity spiel.

That's not what I said.
I don't believe for a moment that "the Jooos" are out to destroy Christianity.
That does not change the fact that many Jews DO hate Christianity. Many of those ironically enough refer to themselves as "secular Jews".
There is a difference, and the absence of one does not preclude the other.

405 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:53:23pm

re: #322 Charles

Just received this email:

Nice to see you finally come out of the closet. You find nothing offensive about Coulter saying that Judaism should be discarded? Is that really "standard Christian doctrine"? Holy Heinrich Himmler, Batman!

Yep, now I'm Himmler, because I said this is all a ploy for Coulter to sell her books.

Oy vey. I'm glad you never link to Coulter. Sheesh. ;-)

406 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:53:26pm

re: #400 Cap'n DOC

re: #383 Cognito

What? Is this the Devil's Advocate speaking?

Sorry. Once again I find myself wondering what your point is. If you care to share it, please do so clearly.

407 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:53:30pm

This thread is ripping up the scales faster than Steve Vai.

/Paging Mr. Beaumont, bring the big mop

408 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:54:00pm

re: #395 Alouette

re: #364 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet


it was more like a comparison than a recommendation or a wish.

Alouette does not like being called a "disgusting human being" or being compared to Islamonazi fascists, not even if they are jolly guys you have had drinks with.


I think the insult only applies if you have thrown stones at people's cars because they were driving on the Sabbath.


We ate lunch, it was a work day.

409 Alouette  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:54:05pm

What a suckfest this thread has become.

410 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:54:06pm

re: #406 Cognito

I made my point. Live with it.

411 oneman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:55:03pm

re: #25 ted

Im Jewish, and anything she says is fine by me.

I love her[in more ways than one] :>}

As a Jew, I find myself in agreement with this statement. :)

Of course, in my (rarely expressed because why rock the boat) opinion, Christians are just misguided Jews. So as long as I'm entitled to my opinion, I figure Lady Ann is perfectly entitled to hers. It doesn't stop me from agreeing with most of what she has to say politically.

If we could take religion out of politics, ah, what a wonderful world it would be.

412 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:55:13pm

re: #400 Cap'n DOC

I'm not. I"m saying that they didn't. Others claim that christians were behind it.

413 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:55:32pm

Shame on Ann Coulter. I already didnt like this woman to begin with. She is an antagonistic and cold human being. I have tried to ignore this poor excuse for a human being, but she keeps on opening her trap like big fat Rosie does. Ann and Rosie are beginning to seem a lot alike to me. It is sad she is deluded by the propaganda of the church. I pray that most intelligent people take her verbal garbage and place it in the trash bin where it belongs. I hope FOX news abandons her so she doesnt have a platform to spread her evil tidings.

Jesus was not Moshiach according to Jewish belief. Moshiach has a very well defined mission and Jesus most certainly did not fufill the mission of Moshiach. If he thought he was and told others, he was a wicked man, leading others astray. G-d gave over 3 million ex-egyptian slaves a revelation at Sinai, a covenent was formed and we were promised that the covenent would NEVER BE RECINDED. We were told that false prophets could come along and perform miracles and we were commanded not to believe such false prophets {i.e. Jesus}. It is completely wrong to believe that someone through one man G-d would change his covenent. If the covenent was to be changed it shouid have been revealed to all of the Jews, not some false prophet {remember that prophecy had left the children of Israel for over 1000 years before Jesus even appeared on the scene}. A human being can fool himself into believing in Idols like Jesus, but G-d is ONE, his name is ONE, and the whole world will know his Unity at the end of days.

414 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:55:59pm

re: #340 buzzsawmonkey

re: #322 Charles

Coulter didn't say that, and I don't think she believes it.

This is one Jew whose only problem with her remarks is that she has just made it that much more difficult for me or any of my like-minded friends to persuade moonbat Jews to reconsider their position.

Concisely put. This out-of-control thread is example numero uno.

415 Big Al  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:56:01pm

#311 Judith

I agree with what you are saying Judith. Believe me, you do not need to impress upon me the impact of Jewish conversion. I'm an orthodox Jewish person fiercely proud of my religion and Zionist views. It is hard to convey to non-Jews how, if you'll pardon the expression, heretical an event like that can be for Jews given our past history and the sparseness of our numbers. But we sanctify life above all else. To compare conversion to death is wholly wrong, however hurtful and unfortunate we may perceive conversion to be.

416 dead sea squirrel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:56:02pm

re: #339 Cognito

Okay, I'll butt in. You need it parsed for you, Cognito? Okay. Take this part of the letter:

The scholars state: "As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is not against them - so long as they do not wage war against Muslims on account of their religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes."


Why is this there? Is there anywhere on earth that Christians qua Christians are waging war on Muslims on account of their religion? Oppressing them and driving them out of their homes? Nope. This is code for, "If you support the Israelis, who do this to us, then you are fully complicit." This letter is a threat, claiming that the whole world could go up in flames due to conflict between Muslims and Christians, when we all know that it is ONLY the Muslims who are threatening to kill unconverted or unsubmissive infidels. Nowhere are Christians compelling Muslims to repent or die. The idea is laughable. And make no mistake: the price for peace with Muslims is to throw Israel to the wolves. This is a call to stand with the Jews and risk "the survival of the world", or stand with the Muslims and have peace (at the small cost of the survival of the Jews, of course).

417 allahakchew  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:56:40pm

I agree 100% with Charles.

Apparently it has worked...

Boy, ain't religion and politics sumfin!

418 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:57:03pm

re: #397 buzzsawmonkey

Excellent post!

419 nolocon  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:57:11pm

The main reason practicing Jews could not have been brought to the Inquisition is because after 1492, there WERE no legal practicing Jews in Spain, and "Judaizing" was a capital offense. They were all expelled or forced to convert.

Please read some (modern) history on the subject. About 1/2 of practicing Jews emigrated from Spain during the worst period of the Inquisition. The reason for the paranoia, at least in Spain, was not anti-semitism per se. It was a (well-founded) fear of Islam after Spain had formally defeated the Moors in 1492. It was perceived that Jews were more sympathetic toward the Moors and, therefore, a threat.

And recall that, at that time, Islamic military imperialism was in full force throughout the Mediterrean, and after literally hundreds of years of brutal fighting against Jihadist attackers, the Spanish had run thin on tolerance of dissent or perceived threats. Not an excuse ... just an historical perspective and context.

As for the entire eeevil Spanish Inquisition, in its 300+ year history, it is now estimated that as few as 800 people were executed, with the maximum estimates ranging up to 3000 or so -- but those are more akin to the Lancet-type estimates of Iraqi civilians than historical scholarship usually relies upon. Not exactly the "millions" that propagandists have slung around for the past couple hundred years.

420 madisonsfriend  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:57:18pm

re: #397 buzzsawmonkey

I don't feel vulnerable- I am not going to convert to anything. I still think what she said was offensive. that is not new- i hear plenty of stuff that is offensive all the time. I consider most of the media just publicity whores- right and left. They are all about selling books and speaking engagements.

421 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:57:22pm

re: #415 Big Al

EXACTLY my point.

and the comparison of christians to islamic terrorists was FAR below the belt.

422 57Chevy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:57:26pm

I admire Ann Coulter's abilty to tap into the ID. It's hilarious.

And as a Christian, I'll continue to support the right of Israel to exist.

The only people pushing forced conversions are the Muslims.

.

423 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:58:09pm

re: #413 muman


Well, if everyone accepted everybody else's religion as perfectly valid, we'd all be Unitarians and really believe in nothing.

Can't say I agree with your views on Jesus, but you are entitled to have them.

424 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:58:36pm

re: #422 57Chevy

hear, hear!

425 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:58:39pm

re: #413 muman

{remember that prophecy had left the children of Israel for over 1000 years before Jesus even appeared on the scene}.

More like 500, but who's counting?

Your post, while heartfelt, adds nothing to the mutual goals of Christians and Jews in the year 2007, and might be seen by Christians as offensive as Coulter's seems to some Jews.

426 WriterMom  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:59:08pm

Blechy yucky thread.

427 allahakchew  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 1:59:58pm

How come i have that funny color?

428 Thanos  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:00:07pm

CNN just did a bit on this, Carville said he "has thousands of Jewish friends" .. blah blah...

Ann's a bomb thrower, and yeah, she knows how to sell books, but ... the books are also well worth reading. She's not one of the enemy but she is a bit too edgy for many staid conservatives. She is out there in some weird zone somewhere between PJ O'Rourke and William F. Buckley jr.

429 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:00:29pm

re: #398 sffilk

"Respectfully, NO IT'S NOT, not when you say that in order to be saved I need to be an apostate to my beliefs, which is how it is perceived."

It may be "perceived" that way by you, but that is not the way it is "presented". Once again, this is a matter of faith, but completion is not apostacy. Ask a Messianic.

430 BenZacharia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:00:30pm

Ha'Shem has made many covenants.

Ha'Shem has on occasion re-newed and expanded covenants.

Ha'Shem has never broken one,
or set one aside
or declared one in abeyance.

NEVER!

431 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:00:46pm

re: #415 Big Al

Well said. I therefore withdraw my previous comment. It was wrong. I apologise to the offended.

432 WriterMom  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:01:29pm

It really sucks when publicity-whoring comments are not just left at that-publicity whoring and then used as some kind of ridiculous fodder for intra-lizard Jewish "versus" Christian flaming on LGF.

Then, to add in the Holocaust and the whole WERE THE NAZIS CHRISTIANS topic is just stupid and pointless.

433 Cap'n DOC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:01:39pm

re: #406 Cognito

And further, letter's writers call it a common essential between the two religions

I just cut and pasted that from your comment which I replied to. It is the common essentials which we do not share, Cognito.

I have no clue what you believe, but in the case of the letter, I will accept what you said as an accurate assessment of how you viewed it.

Christianity and mohammedanism share no 'common essentials', so I was merrily clarifying your misconception.

434 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:02:17pm

re: #431 Judith

If that includes me, No worries. I get very steadfast in my defense of my faith but do my best to never hold grudges.

435 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:02:50pm

re: #432 WriterMom

It really sucks when publicity-whoring comments are not just left at that-publicity whoring and then used as some kind of ridiculous fodder for intra-lizard Jewish "versus" Christian flaming on LGF.

Then, to add in the Holocaust and the whole WERE THE NAZIS CHRISTIANS topic is just stupid and pointless.

When Islam wants us all dead...and we should fight as one.

436 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:03:04pm

re: #434 LanceKates

Yes, it includes you.

437 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:03:05pm

Bring out your thrdead!

-Monty Python

438 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:03:21pm

re: #425 Maine's Michael

re: #413 muman


{remember that prophecy had left the children of Israel for over 1000 years before Jesus even appeared on the scene}.

More like 500, but who's counting?

Your post, while heartfelt, adds nothing to the mutual goals of Christians and Jews in the year 2007, and might be seen by Christians as offensive as Coulter's seems to some Jews.


Well, it probably doesn't make up for a millenia of oppression and persecutions, but if it wasn't for us Christians, odds are that most (well, probably a billion) people wouldn't be semi-literate on Jewish Scripture. Granted, there are portions of Isaiah and at least one Psalm where the Christian and Jewish interpretation are radically different. But still. I'd like to say we made y'all famous, but that doesn't sound quite right.

439 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:03:39pm

re: #432 WriterMom
Yup, too bad it was brought up here:

re: #234 zeir

#176 Lance

Eight years before I was born; recently enough for me...

440 WriterMom  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:03:50pm

Any enemy of the Whoring Caliphate is a friend of mine. Any colour, any religion, gender blah blah blah.

Every last lizard on this thread should save their OUTRAGED OUTRAGE for the OUTRAGE OF ISLAM.

441 Kenneth  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:03:52pm

re: #358 Maine's Michael

LOL!

442 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:04:12pm

re: #436 Judith

We're good then. *grin*

443 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:04:14pm

re: #385 madisonsfriend

re: #361 A Kiwi Infidel

And we tell you that is wrong. Can you understand that our beliefs and yours are totally different? I understand that- I do not think the belief that Jesus is the Messiah is wrong- for Christians. I find it offensive that you want to tell us we are not complete. For me, the Messiah still has to arrive- and for you, he has come and will come again. And I have no issue with that.


Let's see if I can, in my oft inadequate way, take this to the next level.

The nation of Israel has been and still is looking and waiting for their Messiah, Ha Moshiach Ben David, the conquering King. This is whY, in the New Testament, Jesus asks the disciples, "who do they say I am?" and they answer, "some say you are the Son of David".

But He first had to come as the suffering servant, as described in Isaiah 53, already quoted here today. Ha Moshiach Ben Joseph.

Go back to Genesis 3 and read what happens in the garden, when Eve eats the forbidden fruit. She gives it to Adam and what happens? "their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked"

They had become self aware, self concious of themselves, self focussed. And that is what seperates us from the Father, our Creator. We are inherently selfish. Where we made to be totally devoted to our Creator, now we focussed on ourselves and THIS is the nature of sin. It is not what we do that makes us sinners, IT IS WHAT WE ARE.

Hence, our need for a Saviour, a suffering servant, to take that sin nature on Himself.

And I, also, cannot wait for Him to return as the conquering King, IN JERUSALEM!

444 yochanan  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:04:40pm

ann coulter is a b'tch not supprised by her big mouth.

445 allahakchew  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:04:55pm

Never mind, I haven't posted in a looong time and just realized that is how I find myself:)

446 dentate  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:04:55pm

re: #419 nolocon

The only point of disagreement between your view in mine is where the Jews went. No disagreement that in large part the Expulsion was designed to get rid of Muslim sympathizers (which Jews may have indeed been, for good reason, then). No disagreement that it was not a large number of Jews that were actually killed. However, it certainly WAS the Inquisition, and fear of it, that drove Jews underground as conversos and marranos and crypto-Jews, still scattered all through the Spanish and Portuguese speaking worlds, and drove practicing Jews to the Netherlands, England, Eastern Europe and all through the Mediterranean. A large number became "Cristianitos" and it was agagainst these that the Inquisition was especially vigilant, exactly as you say.

Before 1492, 90% of the Jewish world was Sephardic; that changed almost overnight. The Inquisition was, for the Jews, the enforcement arm of the Expulsion. Fear of it scattered the Jews.

The Muslim Ottomans welcomed them. How times have changed.

447 WriterMom  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:05:08pm

re: #435 storagemanager

AMEN MY FRIEND

448 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:05:42pm

re: #409 Alouette

What a suckfest this thread has become.


well they can't all be kumbyah, can't-we-all-just-get-along threads. Sometimes a good family fight clears the air...


/ducks

449 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:05:56pm

Media Matters wanted to provoke exactly this reaction, of course.

450 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:06:15pm

re: #435 storagemanager

re: #432 WriterMom

It really sucks when publicity-whoring comments are not just left at that-publicity whoring and then used as some kind of ridiculous fodder for intra-lizard Jewish "versus" Christian flaming on LGF.

Then, to add in the Holocaust and the whole WERE THE NAZIS CHRISTIANS topic is just stupid and pointless.

When Islam wants us all dead...and we should fight as one.

My religion kicks your religion's ass. We need more of that here at LGF.

Thank you, Ann Coulter.

451 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:06:31pm

re: #443 A Kiwi Infidel
Nice post

452 WriterMom  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:06:51pm

I would humbly-or not so humbly suggest, that out of respect for Charles, and out of a realistic assessment that we will not convince each other to convert to our respective religions that people try to keep their comments based on the thread topic-Ann Coulter, her schtick, etc. and not on theology-hard as that may be.

Now-I must go.

453 nigella  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:06:59pm

Whoa , Writermom, just checked in and was going to read the comments, but I think I might pass!Ann Coulter says a lot of off the wall comments, and after reading the whole transcript I think she was pulling Donny's leg.She is always sympathetic to the plight of the Jews and stands up for them often. While she should have chosen her words more carefully, I don't think she meant anything bad. Could be wrong just my opinion.

454 Hard Right  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:07:01pm

re: #5 storagemanager

This will be brought out in 08...to make Christians look as hateful as Muslims.

Like they wouldn't distort or lie about something else that was said?

455 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:07:07pm

re: #401 SnakeSpit

re: #249 A Kiwi Infidel
And they are blessed with an understanding of scripture way beyond us mere gentiles

Ever heard of Holy Spirit being the one who gives interpretation and understanding?


Of course, and it is the Holy Spirit that seems to empower that GIFT of understanding to the Jew in greater abundance. Just my opinion.

456 Daisy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:07:11pm

Isn't Ann Coulter's new "boyfriend" a Democrat?

457 squarepeg  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:07:11pm

re: #394 rtheyserius

rtheyserious,

It was almost all recycled stuff from previous books and interviews. She did the barest minimum. It's NOTHING but a money-making ploy, like some "Little Mermaid Part VI" DVD. I'd go as far as to say that it trashes the Coulter brand . . . which might strike some as odd, I admit!

458 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:07:52pm

re: #427 allahakchew

How come i have that funny color?

uhh..I dunno...maybe you've spoiled?

:-D

459 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:08:08pm

re: #454 Hard Right

well, if not for Ann Coulter, the left would love us conservative christians.

*grin*

oh, wait. lol

460 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:08:10pm

Charles,

Yes. And, I'll go you one better. Ann Coulter wanted Media Matters to want to provoke exactly this reaction.

Agreed?

461 threecoloursblue  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:08:16pm

re: #380 Maine's Michael

Brilliant! Need that to counter some of the turgidity here.

462 WriterMom  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:08:36pm

re: #453 nigella

Hi-I don't really care too much about what she said. It's more upsetting to me that we fight amongst ourselves. That is the real shame. Distracts from the real problem.

463 damnyanqui  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:08:54pm
This is standard fare, folks - since Saul became Paul.

Nothing new here. Move along.

Oh - BTW, mohammedans. We don't kill each other over it.

And that's simply it.
The message from Christians to Jews is "c'mon along! We're all the chosen people. Let's all get in on the New Deal with Yahweh!"
That's been the idea all along, ever since Jew Numero Uno, Jesus Christ, first articulated it awhile back. A dozen Jews signed up and their successors continue the work.
Some Christians have gotten unpleasant about it. Some Christians have forgotten it. But that is and always has been the message, for the entire human race, but for Jews in particular, as the spiritual ancestors of Christians.
Hey Jews, the invitation is still open. In today's America, nobody is forcing it on anyone, but that is the essence of it.
If some people choose to find it offensive, that's their perogative too, but the message doesn't change just because someone decides to freak out on the messenger.

464 Zebra  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:09:11pm

For #449

No, Ann Coulter provoked this!

465 Jimmy The Clam  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:09:30pm

re: #352 baal32

re: #316 Jimmy The Clam
Hi Jimmy - you think you might be a little heavy handed with that whole "seething hatred of Christianity by many Jews" bit?


Nope!
No hatred of Christanity HERE!

re: #413 muman

Jesus was not Moshiach according to Jewish belief. Moshiach has a very well defined mission and Jesus most certainly did not fufill the mission of Moshiach. If he thought he was and told others, he was a wicked man, leading others astray.
466 BenZacharia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:10:18pm

re: #443 A Kiwi Infidel

Messisah Ben Josheph
Messisah Ben David

2... 2... 2 Jews in one.
/Doublemint commercial

Hey Judith can I believe in the other 14 messiahs and stay a Jew? I'll contribute to 'Jews for Judaism*' when they add the others to the list, until then the can take a long walk off a short pier.

*Unless you're a Karaite or of a similar bent.

467 Hard Right  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:10:36pm

re: #459 LanceKates

re: #454 Hard Right

well, if not for Ann Coulter, the left would love us conservative christians.

*grin*

oh, wait. lol

That is some excellent dry humor.

468 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:10:56pm

re: #432 WriterMom

Well, after stirring the pot a bit, I did try to lighten the mood a bit with a lame joke.

It is annoying when people try to say, after a couple millenia of persecution, that 'those weren't really Christians'.

They were nominal Christians, and they considered themselves Christians. Furthermore, the religous difference between them and the Jews was the motivator and justification for the persecution.

Sam holds for many Nazis. Only a few asslicks in Hitler's/Goering's inner cirlce believed in their idiotic Nordic/Aryan mythology.

Clearly, they weren't ideal or perfect "Christians". Few people are.

Anyhow, that's spilt milk under the bridge, or something. These subjects have no resolution, and are best simply left out of discourse. Whoever tied in the Holocaust did this thread a disservice.

Can we get back to the transsexual's book selling manipulations?

469 nigella  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:11:07pm

Writermom, AMEN! Oh, gosh can I say that here? Have I offended anyone?

470 Alouette  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:11:32pm

Getting back to my comment #1, I don't believe Ann Coulter would have said this, or provoked such a shitstorm even if she did, in a conversation with Debbie Schlussel.

471 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:11:55pm
472 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:12:06pm

re: #460 rappmandu

Charles,

Yes. And, I'll go you one better. Ann Coulter wanted Media Matters to want to provoke exactly this reaction.

Agreed?

Coulter bears ultimate responsibility for her divisive comment. Yeah, MM broke the story, but her statement was very low-hanging fruit, indeed. Fox has also picked up the story, which they don't have to do, seeing also that Bill O'Reilly has a personal fight with MM over their distortion of his words.

473 h0mi  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:12:21pm

I sort of see what she was trying to say but she did so very clumsily. I thought she was a better speaker than this.

474 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:12:21pm

For all the Christians on the board. Relax. Anybody that knows New Testament doctrine knows exactly what Ann Coulter was saying because every New Testament apostle said the same. They said it better than Ann did but they were inspired and weren't attempting to make news on the New York Times Best Seller list.

I know what I think of Mormon commentary when they mention the Book of Mormon. I say boo. Jews would say the same of the New Testament and its commentary. But there are many things I admire about the way Mormons carry their lives. I'll bet most practicing Jews would say the same of many Christians. Obviously, we Christians think the same of the Jews.

We all get to wait to find out which group is right. One group is going to get to say, "I told you so."

475 Hard Right  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:12:35pm

I'm agnostic. So I think my religion might be better than yours...but I'm not sure. :)

476 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:12:59pm

re: #467 Hard Right

I do what I can.

477 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:13:00pm

re: #470 Alouette

Getting back to my comment #1, I don't believe Ann Coulter would have said this, or provoked such a shitstorm even if she did, in a conversation with Debbie Schlussel.

ohh yeahhh she would...just to sell more books! That's really what this is about...face time...

478 dead sea squirrel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:13:18pm

re: #471 buzzsawmonkey

Exactly. Every word.

479 Beagle  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:13:23pm

#446 dentate

The Muslim Ottomans welcomed them.


Or, that's what western intellectuals said at the time and subsequently anyway...

Ever since the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries Western intellectuals, from Pierre Bayle to Voltaire and Montesquieu, had used the putative tolerance of Islam with which to belabor Christianity and her relative intolerance. Against a background of a rise in the pseudo-scientific racism of the nineteenth century, Jane Gerber has observed that Jewish historians looked to Islam “...for support, seeking real or imagined allies and models of tolerance in the East. The cult of a powerful, dazzling and brilliant Andalusia in the midst of an ignorant and intolerant Europe formed an important component in these contemporary intellectual currents.” 22 But Gerber concludes her sober assessment of the Golden Age Myth with these reflections,

The aristocratic bearing of a select class of courtiers and poets, however, should not blind us to the reality that this tightly knit circle of leaders and aspirants to power was neither the whole of Spanish Jewish history nor of Spanish Jewish society. Their gilded moments of the tenth and eleventh century are but a brief chapter in a longer saga. No doubt, Ibn Daud's polemic provided consolation and inspiration to a crisis-ridden twelfth century elite, just as the golden age imagery could comfort dejected exiles after 1492. It suited the needs of nineteenth century advocates of Jewish emancipation in Europe or the twentieth century contestants in the ongoing debate over Palestine...The history of the Jews in Muslim lands, especially Muslim Spain, needs to be studied on its own terms, without myth or countermyth. 23


Warraq concludes,

And that is exactly what Andrew Bostom has done, provide a history of the Jews in Muslim lands, without myth. Bostom provides the necessary corrective to the idealized portraits of the golden age or the absolute tolerance of Ottoman Turkey. Patiently and methodically, he shows the real situation of Jews against a background of the institution of dhimmitude, which relentlessly persecuted all non-Muslims and reduced their lives to a misery, lives which were further punctuated with massacres and pogroms, all grimly recorded by him. Bostom also takes into account the discoveries of the Cairo Geniza, which forced even the great historian Shlomo Dov Goitein (d. 1985) to revise his ideas about the situation of Jews in Islamic lands. While the West has recognized her own shameful part in the slave trade, and antisemitic persecution, and has taken steps to make amends where possible, the Islamic lands remain in constant denial. Until Islamic countries acknowledge the realities of anti-Jewish persecution in their history, there is no hope of combating the continuing hatred of Jews in modern times, from Morocco to Indonesia.

480 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:13:37pm

A Jew accepts upon himself the fact that Hashem {The Name} is the only force in the entire universe. He is the force of Good and the force of Bad, he is the force of Judgement {Din} and he is the force of Mercy {Chesed}. There is nothing besides Hashem, there is nothing before him, there is nothing after him. Hashem is infinite and beyond all physicality. Hashem, the L-rd, seperated the lower waters from the higher waters on the 2nd day, and we know that Holiness {Kedusha} is a form of seperation. Hashem created the world with the attribute of Mercy for without Mercy the world can not stand. Originally, before Adams sin the world was supposed to work strictly with Judgement.

These are the most basic Jewish ideas about the Master of the Universe. A religious Jew recites this mantra at least twice a day in the prayer called "Shema". In case you don't remember it:

"Shema Yisroel, Hashem Elokaynu, Hashem Echad!"
Hear O' Israel, The L-rd {Judgement} our G-d {Merciful Creator}, Our G-d {Mericiful Creator} is ONE!

It has been said that a person who doesnt accept this idea is a person who denies G-d. It is the 1st of the 13 principles which a Jew believes about G-d and his prophets.

For a person to accept the character of Jesus as anything which the Christian faith professes him to be would require a Jew to deny G-ds existance. Ain Od {There is no other}. Christianity claims that Jesus is divine, a fact a Jew must not accept. For if he was divine it breaks several basic ideals of how G-d is infinite. One cannot contain infinity in a physical body. Also the idea that there is any power outside of G-d is heretical. All power stems from G-d, it is his to give and his to take. There is no external idea of the Devil, as G-d reigns supreme in heaven and on earth. There is no idea of Original Sin, this is a Christian invention. All humans are born good, according to Judaism, and free will is paramount. Given all the crazy ideas invented by Christianity and all the mistranslated prophecies, I find it hard to believe for a second anything the church says. And given how evil the church was throughout history, it is hard to believe that Christianity thought it was a Merciful religion. I forgive most of what happened during the Inquisition because I think most realize it was wrong. But the religion has definately missed the mark set by Hashem. It is so sad to think of the damage done by Christianity to the Jewish people.

481 newsjunkie_ky  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:13:51pm

re: #400 Cap'n DOC

re: #381 LanceKates

Lance - I'm not going to repost a link I've already posted once on this thread, but it is an extremely inaccurate statement to make that the Catholic Church 'cooperated' with the Nazis.

re: #383 Cognito

What? Is this the Devil's Advocate speaking?


Lance did not write that. He was quoted the other poster.

482 rappmandu  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:13:51pm

re: #472 Globular Cluster

Coulter bears ultimate responsibility.

Yep. She'll bear it all the way to the bank.

483 nigella  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:14:08pm

#470, Funny you should mention Debbie, just came from reading Hot Air blog take on this, and she says she's ok with this and is a friend of Anns. Sorry I am unable to click on that website. As most of you can probably tell I'm pretty lame on the computor.

484 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:14:11pm

re: #468 Maine's Michael

That'd be post 234.
but what do I know? I'm an idiot, right?

485 wanumba  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:14:36pm

RULE to REMEMBER WITH CHRISTIAN CHURCHES:

EVERY church is comprised of the following :
1) a small number of committed Christians
2) A larger group of nominal Christians
3) The rest of the congregation are happy pagans.

Using this truth, What happened in Germany during the Nazi reign?
1) small group of committed Christians aided and sheltered the Jews and all other innocent people they could against the Nazis. Some of the Christians survived, saving many Jews by their actions, but others were hauled out and shot in the street as examples to the population and others, like Pastor Deitrich Bonhoffer were hung by the enraged Nazis - the imprisoned Bonhoffer was hung for no purpose - the war had been lost, but the Nazis made extra efforts to make sure he would die.

2) larger group of nominal (in name only) Christians. Laid low, tried to go along to get along, did not have the faith to stand up in front of the guns aimed at them for they were afraid to die and they didn't want their children to be shot in front of them. They were overwhelmed by the incredible evil that pounded at their doors so they made themselves as inconspicuous as possible. Tried to ignore the fires of the death camps nearby, afraid to face the terror there. They lowered their eyes and kept to their lives, holding on desperately to mundane routine.

3) Happy pagans found a carte blanche environment to engage in excesses traditionally held in check by the general Christian culture in normal times. Nazis allowed the basest urges of human nature to run rampant. Found it easy to blame Jews for all ills (their own failures) acted on their sin of coveteousness and turned their neighbors in to be able to take their homes and properties. Allowed raw cruelty to be indulged in the death camps, delighting in the power over other human beings.

Can it repeat? What do ye say?

486 yochanan  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:14:40pm

re: #81 MandyManners

sorry mandy but you are white washing christian history. an more honest approach to jewish / gentile relations would be much more helpful.

saying christian anti-semites arn't christian just is not being truthful.

487 BenZacharia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:14:49pm

Man this got more people bent than the 3 or eighty times George W. Bush has stated that his gods name is allah.

488 profitsbeard  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:14:51pm

Ann C. needs to consider the lilies of the field.

You attact more people with perfume than raspberries.

489 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:15:27pm

re: #474 goodbye_natalie

For all the Christians on the board. Relax. Anybody that knows New Testament doctrine knows exactly what Ann Coulter was saying because every New Testament apostle said the same. They said it better than Ann did but they were inspired and weren't attempting to make news on the New York Times Best Seller list.

I know what I think of Mormon commentary when they mention the Book of Mormon. I say boo. Jews would say the same of the New Testament and its commentary. But there are many things I admire about the way Mormons carry their lives. I'll bet most practicing Jews would say the same of many Christians. Obviously, we Christians think the same of the Jews.

We all get to wait to find out which group is right. One group is going to get to say, "I told you so."

If you believe in post tribulation, non-believers will have a chance to accept Christ during the tribulation. Jews don't require non-Jews to convert, in any event, so yeah, it doesn't matter. ;-)

490 LeftJustAintRight  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:15:40pm

CNBC host Donny Deutsch
Charles,
Before you started this thread only 38 people knew about what Ann said on the show.
The 6 people that watch that show and the people that those 6 told what they heard.
Thanks to you Donny Deutsch has more exposure than he get viewers during sweeps week.

491 BabbaZee  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:16:03pm

Oh man !
I already did all my best shtick on this crap on other threads.
I hate when that happens.

Oh well.
;~}

All I have left to say then is...

ROMANS 11

Later Lizardia!

492 israelwantspeace  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:16:07pm

I'm offended by Coulter's statement. Charles, I would have expected you to have come out harder against her statement.

493 lennysquiggy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:16:29pm

I was actually watching this 'live' or 'taped' as it was broadcast. Coulter's delivery and antics are so over the top regardless of the issue, but I wonder if MM or MSM will mention that five minutes earlier, Deutsch asked Coulter if she could say anything positive about Rudy Giuliani. Her reply was - and I'm paraphrasing - Rudy hasn't personally performed an abortion yet and hasn't worn a dress in a few years. Any outrage over those comments?

Also, anyone who has their panties in a bunch of these comments should lookup the definitions dawah, infidel, kuffar, dar-al-Islam and dar-al-Harb. Bitching about Coulter is a game. She's not going to cut off your head.

494 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:16:37pm

re: #466 BenZacharia

I have no idea what you are trying to say to me.

495 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:17:39pm
496 Big Al  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:18:09pm

#431 Judith

No apologies necessary. Your comment was driven by your love of the Jewish religion and your justified fear and despair over its gradual and seemingly inexorable dilution and consequent demise. We are all on the same team here.

497 LeftJustAintRight  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:18:20pm

re: #456 Daisy

Isn't Ann Coulter's new "boyfriend" a Democrat?


Woohooo
I read about the John Edwards having an affair on another thread
I like the way you are connecting the dots !

498 BenZacharia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:18:26pm

re: #474 goodbye_natalie

Convince me. Post every instance Saul said he was anything but a Torah observing Temple attending Jew of the Pharisee party.

499 J.S.  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:18:28pm

re: #419 nolocon

The Inquistion began long before 1492 (and the expulsion of the Jews from Spain). See: [Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]
quote:

"In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews... In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France...

In 1481 the Inquisition started in Spain and ultimately surpassed the medieval Inquisition, in both scope and intensity. Conversos (Secret Jews) and New Christians were targeted because of their close relations to the Jewish community, many of whom were Jews in all but their name."

Then, who were the "new Christians?" There were three groups -- [Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

"New Christians" is a term applied specifically to three groups of Jewish converts to Christianity and their descendants in the Iberian Peninsula. The first group converted in the wake of the massacres in Spain in 1391 and the proselytizing fervor of the subsequent decades. The second, also in Spain, were baptized following the decree of Ferdinand and Isabella in 1492 expelling all Jews who refused to accept Christianity. The third group, in Portugal, was converted by force and royal fiat in 1497. Like the word Conversos, but unlike Marranos, the term New Christian carried no intrinsic pejorative connotation, but with the increasing power of the Inquisition and the growth of the concept of "limpieza de sangre," cleansing the blood, the name signaled the disabilities inevitably heaped on those who bore it."

The articles also note that Muslim converts were treated far, far better than Jewish coverts (the article explains the reason why Muslim converts got a better deal.)

500 Maine's Michael  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:19:41pm

re: #497 LeftJustAintRight

re: #456 Daisy

Isn't Ann Coulter's new "boyfriend" a Democrat?


Woohooo
I read about the John Edwards having an affair on another thread
I like the way you are connecting the dots !

The ballsy transexual Ann Coulter and the lovely and talented John Edwards.

Truly a match made in Heaven.

501 paxnhymn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:19:50pm

re: #485 wanumba

true...ugly...but very true...

and yes..it can and will repeat itself if it keeps going...

the diference is very insidious though...there is a a large portion of the is-slumic population that really think Arabs are the only true mooslems, so there's an extra "umph" to the racial component, albeit an undercurrent now...

502 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:20:17pm

re: #480 muman

A Jew accepts upon himself the fact that Hashem {The Name} is the only force in the entire universe. He is the force of Good and the force of Bad, he is the force of Judgement {Din} and he is the force of Mercy {Chesed}. There is nothing besides Hashem, there is nothing before him, there is nothing after him. Hashem is infinite and beyond all physicality. Hashem, the L-rd, seperated the lower waters from the higher waters on the 2nd day, and we know that Holiness {Kedusha} is a form of seperation. Hashem created the world with the attribute of Mercy for without Mercy the world can not stand. Originally, before Adams sin the world was supposed to work strictly with Judgement.

These are the most basic Jewish ideas about the Master of the Universe. A religious Jew recites this mantra at least twice a day in the prayer called "Shema". In case you don't remember it:

"Shema Yisroel, Hashem Elokaynu, Hashem Echad!"
Hear O' Israel, The L-rd {Judgement} our G-d {Merciful Creator}, Our G-d {Mericiful Creator} is ONE!

It has been said that a person who doesnt accept this idea is a person who denies G-d. It is the 1st of the 13 principles which a Jew believes about G-d and his prophets.

For a person to accept the character of Jesus as anything which the Christian faith professes him to be would require a Jew to deny G-ds existance. Ain Od {There is no other}. Christianity claims that Jesus is divine, a fact a Jew must not accept. For if he was divine it breaks several basic ideals of how G-d is infinite. One cannot contain infinity in a physical body. Also the idea that there is any power outside of G-d is heretical. All power stems from G-d, it is his to give and his to take. There is no external idea of the Devil, as G-d reigns supreme in heaven and on earth. There is no idea of Original Sin, this is a Christian invention. All humans are born good, according to Judaism, and free will is paramount. Given all the crazy ideas invented by Christianity and all the mistranslated prophecies, I find it hard to believe for a second anything the church says. And given how evil the church was throughout history, it is hard to believe that Christianity thought it was a Merciful religion. I forgive most of what happened during the Inquisition because I think most realize it was wrong. But the religion has definately missed the mark set by Hashem. It is so sad to think of the damage done by Christianity to the Jewish people.


Respectfully disagree, but again, if you didn't feel that way, you'd be a Unitarian.

503 Deseeded  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:20:25pm

I'm with Writermom. Fighting sucks.

Who wants to go evangelize down at the bar and convert some beers in to empties with me? ;-)

504 BenZacharia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:20:32pm

Judith,

'Jews for Judaism' isn't in favor of Judaism.

505 SnakeSpit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:20:39pm

re: #455 A Kiwi Infidel
OK. Thanks for clearing up your viewpoint.

506 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:20:51pm

re: #496 Big Al

Thank you for a gentle correction.

507 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:21:06pm

re: #503 Deseeded

Sure, but I'll take rum instead of beer.

508 billhedrick  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:21:13pm

Personally I see God as God. Same one, in my mind his Faith is as valid in the Jewish expression as it is in the Christian. I do agree that the revelation of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the promises of the OT, and that knowing him is knowing God in a fuller way.

That being said, our culture now is such that we are moving towards an acceptance of all sincere expressions of faith that do not deny others their rights. The islamists would deny that right.

The whole condemnation of Christian intolerance is well and goods, but you need to remember that today the Christian may tell you that you are going to Hell, the islamist will try to send you there personally.

509 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:21:19pm

re: #487 BenZacharia

Man this got more people bent than the 3 or eighty times George W. Bush has stated that his gods name is allah.

Sad isn't it...he as much as sez Muslims are right...but people dismiss it.

510 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:21:38pm

re: #504 BenZacharia

Again, I have no idea what you mean by that.

511 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:21:46pm

re: #492 israelwantspeace

I'm offended by Coulter's statement. Charles, I would have expected you to have come out harder against her statement.

Again, I understand why you're offended, and that's your right, but I can't get worked up over it because I don't expect any better from Ann Coulter. All this outrage is going to achieve only one thing -- she'll sell more books.

512 durin s day  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:22:06pm

What is over-looked is the Nazi were a cult sect, they were not Christians wanting to supplant Judaism.

513 wolfgang  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:22:14pm

As long as we're reaching into WWII's closet, ie "Holy Heinrich Himmler, Batman", the Japanese regarded any soldier who surrendered as sub human and not worthy of life. This led to some peculiar behaviors, particularly in Singapore where some 100,000 surprised and astonished British soldiers surrendered to a far numerically inferior Japanese force of 30,000 men. Faced with an unplanned for, overwhelming number of POWs, the Japanese resorted to wanton slaughter of the POWs, including, but not limited to, removing the prisoner's genitalia and fastening them to the prisoner's lips before beheading or bayoneting them to death.
I wonder what the 1942 Bushido Warriors would have done with our present day SurrenderCrats?

514 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:22:45pm

There is one thing I wish Ann Coulter would remember - and I'm a fan because I think she is brilliant in almost every respect except how to carry yourself as a Christian. I really wish she would lay low concerning the current Christian and Jewish relationship. There are a few Jews here on this board I dearly love and will not make enemy because of a difference in a fundamental belief.

Our record as Christians is suspect when it comes to the Jews. We have about a 1,000 years of persecution under our belt - all in the name of twisting scripture to do the devil's work.

I don't think we should be surprised when we come into the LGF room announcing to all the Jews here there's a better way and them not be a little suspicious aghast at our motive. If I were Jewish, I would be.

515 Deseeded  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:22:50pm

re: #507 LanceKates

That's fine with me, they convert pretty easily and I find the more you convert, the easier it gets to convert two or three at once.

516 formercorpsman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:23:02pm

Have not had time, nor will I, go through the entire thread.

Realize however, what Charles tried to point out.

The gasping over something like this, albeit she sought to bring attention, as she obviously has, was nothing more than that.

Coulter has always been a little bit of a loose cannon. She actually makes some valid points in her interviews.

This is nothing more than free fodder for Media Matters. Get a voting bloc ginned up over comments by Ann Coulter, deflects other things like real terrorism, or the real needs of real allies always on the cusp of battle with hostile nations on each flank.

For as much traction as this is going to get, I wish to G-d, we would see the same amount in response to those incidents like the Pakistani shooting up the Jewish Center in Washington, if I recall.

517 dentate  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:23:30pm

re: #479 Beagle

Sure, Beagle, I realize the the Ummah was not paradise either; after all, the rise of Islam was what drove the Jews from Mesopotamia, in large par to Spain, centuries before. Still, like the King of Poland, it offered the lesser of two evils.

518 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:23:32pm

re: #515 Deseeded

lol.. too true. Though I must reserve the right to only convert 2.

519 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:23:38pm

re: #486 yochanan

I forgive you for calling me a liar.

520 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:23:49pm

To clarify, What I write is not hateful in the least. I am very saddened that Rome was able to stick it to the Jewish people by fragmenting and twisting basic ideas about the nature of the universe. Abraham worked long and hard on discovering the nature of Hashems Unity. At the time most nations were idolators, worshiping many many gods. Judaism introduced a monothesistic view which allowed the Children of Israel to connect with him. Unfortunately Rome, which had many many gods, wanted to destroy the Jewish people. They thought Jesus was the King of the Jews {which he never was} and therefore they killed him {BTW there were many so-called Messiahs killed by Rome}. So Rome, as a way of paganizing Judaism introduced many pagan ideas including the virgin birth {which never happened, it was a WELL-KNOWN mistranslation of scripture}. The trinity is another pagan idea which {incompatable with Judaism} was added. As a result it was impossible for a true Jew to believe anything the Christian church {which came along almost 300 years after the man was supposed to have lived}.

I work and live with many Christians. Some of them have come to realize that maybe the Church made a mistake. In my synagogue we have at least a dozen converts from Christianity. Some of them said they were so tired of being misled about the nature of Hashem. A Jew is not hateful towards someone of faith, we just feel that the person has gone astray. It is possible for anyone to repent of their mistakes, and to truely make ammends.

521 formercorpsman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:23:56pm

re: #493 lennysquiggy


Thank you, you nailed it.

522 BabbaZee  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:24:00pm

re: #503 Deseeded

I'm with Writermom. Fighting sucks.

Who wants to go evangelize down at the bar and convert some beers in to empties with me? ;-)

LOL!
I'm in...
but I'm smoking, not drinking.
BONGTWA!

523 threecoloursblue  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:24:18pm

re: #485 wanumba

the "repeat" you speak of has already been threatened by such writers as Michael Burleigh in Sacred Causes: Religion and Politics from the European Dictators to al-Qaeda.
However this time he sees Muslims as being herded into camps...for not integrating, the spectre of European history repeating itself looms... etc etc.

524 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:24:45pm

re: #488 profitsbeard

Ann C. needs to consider the lilies of the field.

You attact more people with perfume than raspberries.


Ever stop to think Coulter will have more to write and complain about if Hillary Stalin-Clinton wins in 2008?

The radio hosts fear that she'll reimpose the 'Fairness Doctrine' on them, but for someone who does occasional TV appearances, but makes her living selling books, she is probably confident Hillary isn't such a Stalinist that she'd infringe the First Amendment.


I'm not quite so sure of that myself.

525 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:24:53pm

And one more point -- I have a real resistance to letting Media Matters jerk me around.

526 gagalbert  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:24:55pm

I am Jew. In fact, I am what we call a big "Macher" I was raised in primarily a Catholic neighborhood. Anne is exactly right, she is noting Christian theology. Gheesh, why is Donny Deutch so surprised. And in fact, so what? As a Jew I do not believe that Jesus was anything but just another guy. Historically, it was Paul that actually developed Christianity and no one says he was the son of G_d. And Anne made some really good points about why I believe in Judaism and not Christianity. She says Christians have the fast track, they can sin and just be forgiven. Well, that is fine for them, but that is not my belief. It makes no sense to me that people can sin all they want and there are no consequences for their actions. But in fact I am not G_d and neither is anyone else that I know of and I don't believe that humans can be G_d.
I think Anne is great. She is very honest, has her own beliefs and she want to win the war over the real bad guys, the Islamofascists. She has my vote even if she thinks I need to be perfected. I am as imperfect as they come, so I definitely need improvements, but my faith in Judaism, the real religion of Judaism, not the Democrat party, is something that will never change. My motto is Jews should follow Judaism and Christians should follow Christianity and we can all go out to dinner (so long as it is a kosher restaurant.)

527 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:25:02pm

re: #514 goodbye_natalie

Well said!

528 wanumba  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:25:24pm

re: #471 buzzsawmonkey
Plain good sense.
There are opportunities being missed, but that's a sorry repeating fact of human nature. "One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make him drink."

529 fenris  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:27:03pm

re: #326 Judith

re: #298 rtheyserius

You obviously have NO IDEA what Jews think they were chosen for.


The best quote I have on the subject:

Rabbi Lord Immanuel Jakobovits, former Chief Rabbi of the United Synagogue of Great Britain (Modern Orthodox Judaism), describes chosenness in this way:

Yes, I do believe that the chosen people concept as affirmed by Judaism in its holy writ, its prayers, and its millennial tradition. In fact, I believe that every people - and indeed, in a more limited way, every individual - is "chosen" or destined for some distinct purpose in advancing the designs of Providence. Only, some fulfill their mission and others do not. Maybe the Greeks were chosen for their unique contributions to art and philosophy, the Romans for their pioneering services in law and government, the British for bringing parliamentary rule into the world, and the Americans for piloting democracy in a pluralistic society. The Jews were chosen by God to be 'peculiar unto Me' as the pioneers of religion and morality; that was and is their national purpose.

530 Former Belgian  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:27:07pm

OK, it takes an opinionated fool like Ann Coulter (for whom I've never had much time) to set one half of LGF against the other. Pathetic beyond pathetic.

On a personal note: I've had a run-in or two with missionizers. None of them had any idea that I had been raised Xian (I "came home" to my ancestral religion as an adult) and could quote the "second book" chapter and verse to them. So they were a bit "unprepared" for my reaction ;-)

531 wanumba  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:27:30pm

re: #525 Charles

And one more point -- I have a real resistance to letting Media Matters jerk me around.


THANK YOU!
Make that a rotating title!

532 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:27:45pm

re: #526 gagalbert

Donnie wasn't suprised. He was trying to make Ann out to be as radical as President Fonzie of Iran.

both to make christians seem like radicals (to further the cause of the Left) and also to make the President of Iran's anti-semetic statements seem less radical, by comparing them to christians.

He tried a few times, if you look, to change the topic, but he kept pressing her about jews, and even COMPARED her to the president of Iran.

533 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:27:53pm

re: #520 muman

The average amount of time spent as a Christian by a Jew who converts to Christianity is five years. After five years, almost all of them have converted back to Judaism again.

534 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:28:22pm

He tried a few times

SHE, not he.

535 Judith  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:29:07pm

re: #528 wanumba

Or my husband's paraphrase. You can lead an ass to water, but you can't turn it into a horse.

536 newsjunkie_ky  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:30:22pm

I love Jews, couldn't be a Christian without them.

How about we live in the present and not the past.

537 Alouette  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:31:04pm

Bittorrent just notified me that my "South Park" download is ready.

Going to watch "More Crap." L8Tr Lizards.

538 nigella  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:31:25pm

okay, I'm going to open up another can of worms:Who among you is insulted and outraged over this statement?"The Republican party has been driven by Evangelicals for twenty years. They are the most anti-Christian people I can imagine the people from the Christian right." Anyone here appalled by that statement?Ann Coulter is not in Government, she is a commentator, that statement came from Harry Reid.Think about that.

539 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:31:49pm

re: #520 muman


You're close now to doing what so many Jewish people find distasteful about some Christians.


I will say this, I doubt you have converted too many dedicated Christians, and I doubt the Jews that have converted to Christianity were all that strong in their Judaism. And it isn't meant as an indictment of the converts. I may not agree with everyone's decisions (especially the people that would convert to Islam, which seems to fill a space for the truly unintelligent and/or belligerent), people need to be prayerful and follow their conciences, and do what they believe is best/what their god/God (small and large 'g' versions, for the Muslims) wills.

540 freebird100  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:31:59pm

I'm a Jew. I have always loved Anne Coulter and I still do. She was only speaking Christian doctrine on Deutsch's program. If you think your religion is the right way, why would you not want others to convert?
Anne does not frighten me. I have less to fear from right-wing Christians like Anne and everything to fear from the Jewish crazies like Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky and the 70% of liberal American Jews who will vote Democratic.
America is not 15th century Spain. As a Jew I'm safe here--for the time being. As I said, I have less to fear from my Christian neighbors than my Jewish ones.

541 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:32:19pm
Ynet-news, The English web site of Yediot Ahronot, will be shut down in the coming days, an unnamed source told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday.

The English site was launched in 2005 and consisted of articles translated from the Hebrew web site

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

542 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:32:28pm

re: #410 Cap'n DOC

re: #406 Cognito

I made my point. Live with it.

Oh, wow -- all right. I'll try to get by.

543 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:32:36pm

re: #538 nigella

I'd say what I think of Harry Reid, but MediaMatters may run a story on me.

544 BenZacharia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:32:37pm

re: #520 muman

Abraham worked long and hard on discovering the nature of Hashems Unity.

Makin' it up as you go along?

545 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:33:53pm

fenris, Very good quote. It sums up the Jewish idea that ever human on earth is a creation of the L-rd Hashem. We ALL have a purpose in this life, a mission so to say. The Jewish people accepted the mission given to them at Mt Sinai, to be a light unto the nations concerning having a relationship with the Almighty G-d. It does not detract from the missions of other nations. I have heard that Greece had a particular mission, to bring beauty and science into the world. We don't deny that all 70 nations of the world have a place in the world to come. This is a very basic difference between Judaism and the other so-called religions. We dont need to convert anyone, we dont need to destroy anyone, we need to be faithful to Hashem and put our trust in him...

546 jwbaumann  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:34:22pm

If Ann had said, "Rich people are poor people with money," or "we want everyone to be rich," would that be hateful to poor people?

If a Moonbat says, "we want to give citizenship to all the undocumented immigrants," is that hateful to undocumented immigrants?

If a Democrat says, "we want you Republicans to become Democrats," is that hateful to Republicans?

No, of course not. Those statements are simply natural outgrowths of the belief system.

Ann stated standard, core, basic, (dare I say it?) fundamental Christian beliefs. I am shocked that so many self professing Christians don't get this. It really has me worried for the future of this country that so many people lack such basic understanding. It parallels the widespread, basic misunderstanding of the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Bill of Rights.

Without a common understanding of those 4 core/foundational documents, we are in big trouble as a cohesive nation.

On the media matters site, vanishingly few commenters quote the Bible. How is it possible to determine if a statement is Christian or not without consulting the Bible? The one who did was attacked by confused, clueless, angry people who, amazingly, claimed to be Christian.

I am Baffled.

547 billhedrick  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:34:36pm

OK here's a point: I have no problem as a Christian keeping Kosher when with my Jewish friends. I also went to a bris and tried to keep up, all the time keeping my hat on since they where pretty orthodox. But this is because I love and respect Judaism and it's traditions. Also it's a choice I make freely without being compelled. But the islamic equivalent? nope not going to do it. Martin Luther for all his faults was pretty bright here, he advised that when someone tells you not to drink beer you should drink it in front of him and offer him one as well. muslims hate us and want to re-write our culture, so I would make a point of breaking their laws in their faces.

548 dentate  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:35:23pm

Well, most people on both sides of this issue believe there was a Temple on the Temple Mount, and would like to believe that there will be one there again someday. There's the symbol of what we all share and where we differ from Islam, which denies that there was ever such a thing, tries to destroy the clear physical evidence of it to support one of the unsupportable tenets of their creed, and threatens death and destruction if you oppose their view. Too bad Olmert is going to give it back to them. Time to turn our attention back to that.

549 LeftJustAintRight  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:36:24pm

re: #543 LanceKates

I'd say what I think of Harry Reid, but MediaMatters may run a story on me.


Go ahead and say it
Then go to rehab
Then find Jesus
And all will be forgiven after you register as a Democrat

550 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:36:34pm

re: #416 dead sea squirrel

re: #339 Cognito

Okay, I'll butt in. You need it parsed for you, Cognito? Okay. Take this part of the letter:

The scholars state: "As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is not against them - so long as they do not wage war against Muslims on account of their religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes."

Why is this there? Is there anywhere on earth that Christians qua Christians are waging war on Muslims on account of their religion? Oppressing them and driving them out of their homes? Nope. This is code for, "If you support the Israelis, who do this to us, then you are fully complicit." This letter is a threat, claiming that the whole world could go up in flames due to conflict between Muslims and Christians, when we all know that it is ONLY the Muslims who are threatening to kill unconverted or unsubmissive infidels. Nowhere are Christians compelling Muslims to repent or die. The idea is laughable. And make no mistake: the price for peace with Muslims is to throw Israel to the wolves. This is a call to stand with the Jews and risk "the survival of the world", or stand with the Muslims and have peace (at the small cost of the survival of the Jews, of course).

Very interesting, and worth some serious thought.

Like I said, I don't agree with everything in the letter, but this is the equivalent of your neighbor saying, "Let's be good neighbors. I'll be friendly as long as you don't set my mailbox on fire."

Well. Fair enough. I'll try my best to confine all my mailbox-burning activities on my side of the fence.

It's a strange passage, to be sure, but it's not the "submit or die" inflamation some are making it out to be. And I think that to use it as a prism through which to view the whole letter is a mistake.

551 Alouette  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:37:20pm
552 bulwrk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:37:34pm

re: #520 muman


hey why don't you take a breather you're worse than Ann Coulter

553 NamDoc67  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:38:22pm

There is a big difference - hard for leftists to see, I know, since to them all thought and speech they don't like is the greatest and only evil - between hoping people convert to the religion you believe is valid, and threatening to kill them if they don't convert - - - and then killing them. The latter is the connection between fascists, Islamists and Marxist totalitarians (although for the first and the last, "religion" is their ideology, not a spiritual faith). All three of these have massacred millions who were not of their "faith" or who refused to "convert" to their "faith" in the last century.

554 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:38:38pm

re: #549 LeftJustAintRight

well, I have a feeling that if I registered as a Democrat and turned my back on all I know to be right and good, to instead support that which is evil... the only One that matters might not remember me.

555 BenZacharia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:38:40pm

If Ha'Shem had set the speed limit at 120 MPH Jews would be walking everywhere the went.
/Hedge around the Law? Bah! Cheeseburgers are kosher!

I listened to Anns' piece and it was hilarious!
/Context is king!

556 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:38:42pm
557 Hard Right  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:38:46pm

Guess I'm a heretic, but who gives a rats ass what religion we are and whose is the true religion? This is exactly what Media Matters wants!

558 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:39:06pm

BenZacharia,

No, Im not making it up as I go along. Study your Torah and discover the truth. Abrahams father was an idol maker. Abraham grew up in the thick of Idol worshippers. He DISCOVERED Hashem by observing how the world works. If you think I made this up you are gravely mistaken. Ask any competent Rabbi about our Avraham Avinu and he will tell you that Avraham was the 1st man in the post flood world to identity Hashem. Avraham Avinu was a man of Mercy, he sat in his tent waiting for travelers so he could serve them. I find it hard to believe that anyone who knows anything about the Bible would not know this about Avraham Avinu... Shame on you Ben.If you are interested there are many good explanations of this on the site [Link: www.aish.com...]

559 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:39:12pm

re: #550 Cognito

re: #416 dead sea squirrel


re: #339 Cognito

Okay, I'll butt in. You need it parsed for you, Cognito? Okay. Take this part of the letter:

The scholars state: "As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is not against them - so long as they do not wage war against Muslims on account of their religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes."

Why is this there? Is there anywhere on earth that Christians qua Christians are waging war on Muslims on account of their religion? Oppressing them and driving them out of their homes? Nope. This is code for, "If you support the Israelis, who do this to us, then you are fully complicit." This letter is a threat, claiming that the whole world could go up in flames due to conflict between Muslims and Christians, when we all know that it is ONLY the Muslims who are threatening to kill unconverted or unsubmissive infidels. Nowhere are Christians compelling Muslims to repent or die. The idea is laughable. And make no mistake: the price for peace with Muslims is to throw Israel to the wolves. This is a call to stand with the Jews and risk "the survival of the world", or stand with the Muslims and have peace (at the small cost of the survival of the Jews, of course).

Very interesting, and worth some serious thought.

Like I said, I don't agree with everything in the letter, but this is the equivalent of your neighbor saying, "Let's be good neighbors. I'll be friendly as long as you don't set my mailbox on fire."

Well. Fair enough. I'll try my best to confine all my mailbox-burning activities on my side of the fence.

It's a strange passage, to be sure, but it's not the "submit or die" inflamation some are making it out to be. And I think that to use it as a prism through which to view the whole letter is a mistake.


You can find a pdf of the letter from the Muslim scholars here. My immediate impression is that while saying it wants to build on common ground, the letter (amid copious Qur'an quotes) never mentions Qur'an 5:17, which says that those who believe in the divinity of Christ are unbelievers, or 4:171, which says that Jesus was not crucified, or 9:30, which says that those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God are accursed, or 9:29, which mandates warfare against and the subjugation of Jews and Christians. It would seem to me that verses like these would need to be addressed in some way, even if only to give them some benign interpretation, if there is to be any true and honest dialogue. [Link: jihadwatch.org...]

560 Former Belgian  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:39:15pm

PS: and yes, before you accuse me of calling Ann Coulter stupid, I know plenty of VERY sharp people who think their INTELLIGENCE somehow gives them a free pass to bloviate about subjects they have only scant KNOWLEDGE about. Like the late lamented Richard Feynman, I find this sort of intellectual arrogance more insufferable than outright stupidity.

561 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:39:28pm

re: #514 goodbye_natalie

Bless you. As a Jew? I was deeply offended. But she is the one who spoke the words. she was not forced to. I lost any bit of respect that I had for her.

Saying that? She is entitled to her opinion, even if it is hurtful. But to state it publicly? It will, I think, have a possible negative impact on her book sales.

I was somewhat reluctant to weigh in on this.

562 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:39:40pm

re: #526 gagalbert

Well, my beliefs about forgiveness as a Christian. Jesus does not forgive unless there is genuine repenting. Genuine repentance requires an effort to make right what was done wrong. Which, for a major criminal act, includes turning one self over to the civil authorities for justice, if at all possible.

So, nobody could rightly say Adolf Hitler got into Heaven on a technicality. The fact he committed suicide to avoid capture by the Russians means he wasn't ready to face civil justice, even if the Russian brand would have been extremely unpleasant. I believe it was Goering who swallowed cyanide in his cell before he could be hanged. Again, no last second plea for forgiveness was possible there, IMHO.

563 RedWhiteAndJew  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:39:56pm

Well, at least she didn't not call the Silky Pony a fag.

And yes, I meant that exactly as written.

(Speaking as a Jew, I have no problem with what she said. Further, I have no problem with Christians trying to convert me. "No" always seems to work with them, unlike the 'splodies.)

564 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:40:38pm

re: #537 Alouette

You juvenile delinquent, you! :)

565 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:40:56pm

re: #433 Cap'n DOC

re: #406 Cognito

And further, letter's writers call it a common essential between the two religions
I just cut and pasted that from your comment which I replied to. It is the common essentials which we do not share, Cognito.

I have no clue what you believe, but in the case of the letter, I will accept what you said as an accurate assessment of how you viewed it.

Christianity and mohammedanism share no 'common essentials', so I was merrily clarifying your misconception.

Yes they do share some common beliefs, Cap'n. Namely, in this case that there is one God.

The shadier possibility, which some are holding out here, is that the Islamic scholars are considering Christ to be a 'second' God, partnered with the true God. Christians believe they are one and the same.

But both religions -- both -- are monotheistic.

566 BenZacharia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:41:54pm

re: #558 muman

And then went on to mock Ha'shem, Gen 17:17. Cite Tanahk to make your case.

567 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:42:34pm

re: #551 Alouette

Pricey, but I like it.

568 LeftJustAintRight  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:43:40pm

re: #554 LanceKates

I was being an as8h8l
All the people who get in trouble go to rehab and find Jesus and all is forgiven
What a joke those people are
Does anybody really fall for that?

569 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:43:46pm

And Cap'n, before you get too riled up, I'll point out I'm not saying Islam and Christianity believe in the same God. I'm saying they both believe in one God.

570 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:44:02pm

re: #565 Cognito

You are hopeless...I posted twice what a scholar of Islam thought of the letter. [Link: jihadwatch.org...]

571 yochanan  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:44:04pm

re: #519 MandyManners


it wasn't till after WW2 that the church changed its teaching and said jews did not kill christ.

i really don't buy the revisionist histroy were you say they aren't christian if there anti semites. centurys of euro christian history (2,000 years) from the pope all the way down to the local parish member.

I am not calling all christians anti semites but there were some. Saying that real christians can't be anti semites is really a kind of WHITE WASHING HISTORY.

572 Fortunate son[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:44:05pm
573 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:44:41pm
574 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:45:00pm

re: #570 storagemanager

re: #565 Cognito

You are hopeless...I posted twice what a scholar of Islam thought of the letter. [Link: jihadwatch.org...]

Yes, and I saw it twice. Thank you.

575 Trinitytim  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:45:29pm

I am a Christian and I love the Jewish people and the State of Israel. I believe that Christ is the savior, but I also believe that it is up to each individual to determine his/her own set of beliefs. I also believe that God is protecting His people and will continue to do just that until the end of time.

I generally support Ann Coulter but I know that she likes to be provocative. This appears to me to be much ado about nothing. It's just typical Ann Coulter. She honestly believes what she said and I do not think she intended it as an insult.

576 BenZacharia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:46:03pm

re: #573 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

Would the leading edge be called the Stormfront?

577 wanumba  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:46:25pm

re: #535 Judith

re: #528 wanumba
Or my husband's paraphrase. You can lead an ass to water, but you can't turn it into a horse.


But it was to the ass that God gave voice to inform Balaam that he was being a jerk, enroute to misuse the gift God had given him.

Numbers 22:28
When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, she lay down under Balaam and he was angry and beat her with his staff. Then the Lord opened the donkey's mouth and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?'

... The angel of the Lord asked him, "Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me. If the donkey had not turned away from me these three times, I would certainly have killed you by now."

578 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:46:48pm

re: #572 Fortunate son

Registered lizardoid since: Feb 25, 2005 at 6:44 am

No. of comments posted (since July 26, 2004): 43
Show comments within last 7 days

Topic: Media Matters Scandal of the Week
Comment #: 0572

Saw a shot and took it.

579 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:47:26pm

re: #568 LeftJustAintRight

Oh, I know what you meant, and I found it funny. *grin*

And no, they don't believe it when someone does that, but they won't call anyone on it in case THEY get caught in something and need to go to rehab.

Example: Atlantic City's mayor... in the middle of an investigation as to whether or not he's been lying when he says he's a green berret and has a bunch of medals... he suddenly disappears for a while then is suddenly getting 'mental help' . .. .

There will be calls to forgive him because he has "problems" . . . he sure does..

580 nigella  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:47:33pm

Charles, methinks a new thread is in order. Maybe you could roll out some oldie.. Do you still have the giant duck of peace? that was one of my favorites. Good bye and someone bless.However you consider your God, fill in the name.

581 RedWhiteAndJew  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:48:28pm

#572 Fortunate son

Amen, brother! If we were in close physical proximity, I'd be offering to buy you a drink right now.

582 David IV of Georgia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:48:42pm

That Christianity is the perfection of the Jewish faith, the answer to the prophecies and proclamations of the Patriarchs and Prophets is the historical and predominant Christian belief concerning Jews.

Unlike Muslims, Christians are expected to treat others, regardless of what they believe, even if they are antagonistic to Christianity, as equals, as friends. By no means are we allowed to threaten death or suffering nor coerce nor bribe nor manipulate people into joining our faith. Have Christians failed to live and abide by these ideals? Yes. But the principles taught us by the prophet Moses remain: Shema Israel, Y-H E-u Y-H echad. You shall love the L-D your G-d with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. And You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the L-D.

It is the teaching of the Christian faith that Christians that fail to live up to the ideals of Christianity will fare worse in the Last Judgment than those who never professed to be Christian. This is the original belief of Christians on these matters.

583 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:49:57pm

re: #573 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

Strong storms in West Texas!

In NYC area too!

584 fenris  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:50:36pm

Let's not forget the prayer composed by Pope John XXIII in 1963:

"We realize that our brows are branded with the mark of Cain. Centuries long has Abel lain in blood and tears because we have forgotten Thy love. Forgive us the curse which we unjustly laid on the name of the Jews. Forgive us, that with our curse, we crucified Thee a second time."

It's a beautiful prayer. It also says something about Christian history that he felt the need to compose it.

586 markx  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:51:19pm

re: #575 Trinitytim

+1

587 storagemanager[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:52:56pm
588 mjwsatx  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:53:21pm

re: #480 muman

Muman

I admire your post and I believe that you state observant Jewish beliefs accurately and succinctly. It is good to let both Jews and Christians know what beliefs form the basis for our faith.

However - I disagree with your last statement. Christianity has not harmed Judaism - we have done that to ourselves. Just as our stiff-necked ancestors worshipped the golden calf right after the Exodus and the revelation at Mt. Sinai - our people continue to doubt, question, and - unfortunately - wander. This is not the fault of Chritianity any more so than the destruction of the original Tablets was caused by the golden calf.

At risk of offending many of our Christian Lizard friends here, I think that they are wrong when they say that Judaism is G-d 1.0 and Christianity is G-d 2.0. I believe that in order to make monotheism more palatable and more easily understood by the masses - Christianity watered down the Jewish faith, gave it a "face" and made it more easily accessible. IMHO - Judaism is G-d 1.0 (Hashem is ONE), Christianity is G-d 0.33, and Islam is G-d 0.000001.

Even so, the Christian world was able to spread the essentials of monotheism all around the globe, and the planet is a much much finer place for it - contrary to what Christopher Hitchens would say.

589 wanumba  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:53:30pm

re: #569 Cognito

And Cap'n, before you get too riled up, I'll point out I'm not saying Islam and Christianity believe in the same God. I'm saying they both believe in one God.

.

One is the TRIUNE God
the other is ONE god

HUGE difference. The concept of the Trinity is pure blasphemy to the Muslims.
The rejection of the concept of the Trinity is the splitting point of all cults and heresies of Christianity. It is THE definiing element of Christianity.

590 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:53:45pm

re: #11 Cap'n DOC

This is standard fare, folks - since Saul became Paul.

Nothing new here. Move along.

Oh - BTW, mohammedans. We don't kill each other over it.

You to add "...any more." to that.

591 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:53:47pm

re: #572 Fortunate son

I can’t believe LGFrs are all worked up about what Ann said. This whole site is based on unmercifully bashing Muslims. It’s like the pot calling the kettle black.

That's nonsense.

592 lennysquiggy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:54:00pm

#521 formercorpsman:

no, thank YOU for your service.

593 kham  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:54:29pm

Nice to see you finally come out of the closet. You find nothing offensive about Coulter saying that Judaism should be discarded? Is that really “standard Christian doctrine”? Holy Heinrich Himmler, Batman!

And all this time I thought we were just a bunch of Zionist. It seems the extreme left can't decide what moniker to assign to conservations. Either we're anti-Jew or a bunch of Zionist. Either we're a bunch of jingoistic, flag waving pro-military dopes, or we despise the troops (i.e. Rush).

594 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:54:31pm

re: #589 wanumba

re: #569 Cognito


And Cap'n, before you get too riled up, I'll point out I'm not saying Islam and Christianity believe in the same God. I'm saying they both believe in one God.
.

One is the TRIUNE God
the other is ONE god

HUGE difference. The concept of the Trinity is pure blasphemy to the Muslims.
The rejection of the concept of the Trinity is the splitting point of all cults and heresies of Christianity. It is THE definiing element of Christianity.

I get all that. But Christians still believe God is one God, in three persons. Both are monotheisms.

595 Abdullah al-Libi  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:55:07pm

I can't believe she even wasted her time with Donny Douchebag. The guy is the worst interviewer I have ever seen. I watched him once when his guest was Jenna Jameson - she was talking about getting raped in high school, and the guy wasn't paying attention and then came back with a line like "So, you like sex?"

596 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:55:38pm

re: #572 Fortunate son

And since you used a spelling to get through the filter, you clearly know that words like 'moozlimbs' are not welcome at this site. Your post is deleted for that reason.

597 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:56:01pm
#588 mjwsatx
IMHO - Judaism is G-d 1.0 (Hashem is ONE), Christianity is G-d 0.33, and Islam is G-d 0.000001.

I'd agree with that but with one slight change:

Islam is Moon-God 101.

598 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:56:45pm

re: #595 Abdullah al-Libi

LOL.

/ not laughing at rape, just at the stupidity of donnie.

599 MoonbatBane  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:57:41pm

re: #39 storagemanager

sound like judgmental automatons who want to walk over you or convert you.

Um, actually, evangelical Christians DO want to "convert you" -- it's called "being saved." They will talk themselves blue in the face to do it, because they think that they are saving your eternal soul.

However, they won't blow you up to do it (except for a rare few nutjobs, but EVERY group has those, and Christians castigate them).

600 lennysquiggy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:57:47pm

#572 FortunateSon:

I can’t believe LGFrs are all worked up about what Ann said. This whole site is based on unmercifully bashing Muslims. It’s like the pot calling the kettle black.

Define 'unmercifully,' and 'bashing.' Maybe you meant to say "consistently" and "exposing"?

601 paint-right  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:58:02pm

re: #546 jwbaumann

If Ann had said, "Rich people are poor people with money," or "we want everyone to be rich," would that be hateful to poor people?

If a Moonbat says, "we want to give citizenship to all the undocumented immigrants," is that hateful to undocumented immigrants?

If a Democrat says, "we want you Republicans to become Democrats," is that hateful to Republicans?

No, of course not. Those statements are simply natural outgrowths of the belief system.

Ann stated standard, core, basic, (dare I say it?) fundamental Christian beliefs. I am shocked that so many self professing Christians don't get this. It really has me worried for the future of this country that so many people lack such basic understanding. It parallels the widespread, basic misunderstanding of the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Bill of Rights.

Without a common understanding of those 4 core/foundational documents, we are in big trouble as a cohesive nation.

On the media matters site, vanishingly few commenters quote the Bible. How is it possible to determine if a statement is Christian or not without consulting the Bible? The one who did was attacked by confused, clueless, angry people who, amazingly, claimed to be Christian.

I am Baffled.

I agree. Ann makes sense here, and it is Deutch who doesn't get it and doesn't follow the conversation and winds up accusing her of wishing ill to Jews. Nonsense. She is essentially wishing they could be Jews who accept Jesus as the Messaiah. Obviously many , most Jews don't and no Christian of any sensitivity would belabor that with any Jew. But Christians nonetheless wish that for Jews as they would wish it for anyone. Paul wishes it for his fellow Jews. Doesn't any convert to any religion? Non- smokers wish non smoking for those still smoking. etc etc etc.

Any Christian who does not regard Jews with love and respect is an imperfect Christian IMHO. No one I know attempts to convert them, But any Christian worth his/her salt would not shrink from a conversation about shared beliefs and heritage.

Duetch misstates, misquotes and misrepresents Ann. She suffers from an archness that can be off -putting, but she knows whereof she speaks.

602 blackvalleybob  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:59:00pm

Coulter is, essentially, expressing Christian belief. There is also the dictum that states that the art of being a civilized person is not to blurt out everything that pops into your head. Coulter has the tact of an unruly teenager trying to piss off her elders. As Joan Rivers used to say: "Grow up!"

603 Hard Right  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:59:39pm
I can’t believe LGFrs are all worked up about what Ann said. This whole site is based on unmercifully bashing Muslims Islamo-Fascists.

Fixed it.

604 storagemanager  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 2:59:45pm

re: #599 MoonbatBane

re: #39 storagemanager


sound like judgmental automatons who want to walk over you or convert you.

Um, actually, evangelical Christians DO want to "convert you" -- it's called "being saved." They will talk themselves blue in the face to do it, because they think that they are saving your eternal soul.

However, they won't blow you up to do it (except for a rare few nutjobs, but EVERY group has those, and Christians castigate them).

Those are not my words...a story I posted with a link.

605 BenZacharia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:00:41pm

Even the shema says 'eloheem echad'

literal translation 'one gods',

INCONVENIENT TRUTH
/R

(Render, did I do that right)

606 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:03:47pm

I don't see what the big deal is. I think Coulter just doesn't care what other people think and she shoots off at the mouth. But even aside from Coulter, as an atheist, I know very well that Christians would like everyone to join their religion and think everyone would be better off for it. Who cares? Why are so many Jews overly sensitive about what Christians might think? It isn't as if they are going to put a gun to your head to force you to convert. If you're a religious Jew, I'm sure you feel your way is a better way for the non-practicing Jew or the Jew who has converted to Christianity than the way they've chosen. But you also have no way of changing that person's mind than by appealing to them intellectually. (And are we to label Jews who would persuade other Jews practicing Christianity to come back to the fold "anti-Christian?")

Explain it to me.

607 Annelid[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:04:58pm
608 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:05:40pm

By the way, on the subject of words such a the one posted by "FortunateSon" -- anyone who posts a slur like that has already tried a more common spelling, and discovered that the filter doesn't allow them to post it. So if you then use an alternate spelling, even when you know it's not welcome, you're almost daring me to block your account.

That's a dare you're going to lose.

609 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:06:40pm

re: #591 Charles

re: #572 Fortunate son

I can’t believe LGFrs are all worked up about what Ann said. This whole site is based on unmercifully bashing Muslims. It’s like the pot calling the kettle black.
That's nonsense.

No, this site is partially about allowing Muslims to bash themselves with their own words and actions. Chalres never ever simply posts a thread about his low opinion of Muslims, if any. He merely posts threads regarding news events in which some Muslims condemn themselves through their deeds.

And as for the commenters, I think the primary focus is wanting to avoid succumbing to Islam as an ideology or social structure. Muslims are criticized only when they present themsleves as emissaries for the sought-after Caliphate. But if someone want to retreat to his own home and worship a piano bench or a black meteorite in a box in Saudi Arabia, I couldn't care less. Be my guest.

610 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:06:44pm

mjwsatx,

Very good point. I have seen it this way too. I have heard some Rabbis explain that Christianity did spread the monotheistic ideal around the world. To that we should be grateful.

Also, you are wise to know that the Jewish people receive what we are decreed by Hashem to receive. And we accept that we are punished for the sin of the golden calf. The Torah prophecies many great calamities which will happen and have happened to my people. We also accept it upon ourselves that the 2nd Temple was destroyed as a result of the sins of the Jewish people.

So I see it that a true Jew must accept the bad with the good. In my personal life this is so. Some who know me know that I am a victim of 9/11 because my younger brother worked on the 105th floor of WTC Tower #1 for Cantor Fitzgerald. Even this was foreseen by G-d and allowed to happen. It may be hard for some to accept, especially my own mother, but I see this as G-ds hand in history. The Jewish G-d is a G-d of History, he reveals himself through political and national events. We celebrate Channukah in this vein. I dont see this as the act of the devil or any power outside of Hashem. Hashem invented the radical Islamists for a purpose. And it is the duty of a true man to help reveal the truth of the kingdom of Hashem. We will triumph over the evil Islamic threat, I have perfect faith.

Thank you,
muman

611 Cognito  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:07:05pm

re: #608 Charles

I propose an immediate ban on any word rooted in "sk8ter."

But that's just me.

612 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:07:13pm

re: #608 Charles

lol... I agree. You have to purposely try to do such things if you're going to respell words to get around a filter.

613 bulwrk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:08:13pm

I think a couple of double western bacon cheese burgers would look good on Ann.

614 Annelid[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:08:14pm
615 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:09:23pm

re: #613 bulwrk

I like Ann... But I agree.

She has one, I have one and then...

*thump*

616 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:10:40pm

BenZacharia,

Wrong Wrong Wrong... Its as I wrote it, not as you twisted it...

Shema Yisroel Hashem Elokaynu, Hashem Echad!

Where the word Hashem is we say "Adonai" which means "Merciful Creator"... You are refering to Elokim {plural}. In the Shema the word is "Eloykanu" which means "Our God" not "Our Gods".

Sorry to break the bubble...

617 grumpy old codger  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:11:41pm

re: #419 nolocon
BTW, Bebi Netanyahu's doctoral dissertation comes very close to being the definitive work on the inquisition. He comes down on the side that the Inquisition was not as bad as "la legenda negra" has cracked it up to be.
As an aside, comments like those of muman, seem to show that religious extremism can be a danger, regardless of the religion of the extremist. Remember something about the siccari, as well as the inquisition.

618 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:13:28pm

re: #575 Trinitytim

I believe that Christ is the savior, but I also believe that it is up to each individual to determine his/her own set of beliefs.

But isn't it incumbent among believers to "bring others to Christ'? I don't have the chapter-and-verse quote at my fingertips, but aren't there New Testament passages in which prosletyzing is (don't want to use the wrong word here) praiseworthy/essential/necessary?

619 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:14:45pm

GOC,

What the hell are you talking about? What religious extremism? I have not condemned anyone. I have not called for anyone being punished. What have I said which you consider religious extremism? I think you are just looking for a scapegoat...

620 Phsstpok  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:15:53pm

re: #11 Cap'n DOC

Oh - BTW, mohammedans. We don't kill each other over it.

Well, they might disagree with you in Northern Ireland. And there are plenty out there who try to sell the idea that Hitler was a Christian (from my reading, he definitely wasn't).

The main thing here, as indicated by Charles' comment, is that this is shtick, done to sell books. She's been moaning about how unfair it is that Rush was being attacked by the Dhimmicrats on the floor of the Senate. She figures that kind of attack would be worth several million more book sales if they would only attack her the same way.

621 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:16:11pm

re: #618 zombie

Yes... but it is still up to you to accept it or reject it. there is no call to behead you for saying "No."

622 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:16:15pm

PS: I am responding to an assertion by a popular conservative personality that she thinks my religion is inferior to hers. I have every right under the sun to defend my faith, and I will do so whether you like it or not. Whether I can do so on this forum is up to Charles.

623 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:16:44pm

I think referring to others as imperfect and implies that they are lesser beings. Just because this is done by Christians doesn't make it ok. I don't find it surprising that Coulter said this, but I find it interesting how many people here defend it.

624 nolocon  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:17:37pm

re: #499 J.S.

The Inquistion ... See: [Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]
quote:

PLEASE ... quote from an actual historical source ... NOT a biased website that relies on debunked historical mythology and propaganda.

The 'thousands of Jews were burned at the stake in the Inquisition' lie is way, way too old, and you should be embarrassed to be repeating it.

625 Russkilitlover  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:17:44pm

LOL to this entire thread! Whether AC was deliberately provocative for marketing reasons, or the Left will use her comments to further bash all things Christian and American you can bet that there will be much press about it and much discussion - even on LGF!

Now, if only the daily barrage of Jew and Western bashing done by Islamists everywhere stirred up so much passion, the advance of Islamofascism would be history.

626 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:19:04pm

re: #623 Killgore Trout

You can think that, you have that right. Doesn't make you correct though.

627 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:19:10pm

I'm sure Ann Coulter would prefer Jews become Christians in much the same way Muman would prefer Christians become Noachides. I don't see the big deal either way.

628 bulwrk  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:20:37pm

re: #622 muman

I believe the Jewish faith stands fine on it's own it dosen't need you to bash all of Christendom in defence

629 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:22:24pm
#530 Former Belgian
On a personal note: I've had a run-in or two with missionizers. None of them had any idea that I had been raised Xian (I "came home" to my ancestral religion as an adult) and could quote the "second book" chapter and verse to them. So they were a bit "unprepared" for my reaction ;-)

I once let some Jehovah's Witnesses into my home. By the time they left, I had successfully converted them to disbelief.

630 yochanan  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:24:33pm

is ann coulter a female? or a tranny? her adam's apple is bigger than mine.

631 grumpy old codger  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:25:42pm

re: #480 muman

I would not hesitate to think, muman, that if you had power, that power would corrupt or be corrupted by you. You strike me as a religious fascist. I see you as having very little tolerance for "error".
Again as others have pointed out in the thread, The Jews killed the Amelikites. Can you justify it that God commanded it? How would that be different from what the moslems claim?
St. Stephen was martyred and not by moslems.
Saul was not on his way to Tarsus to deliver Hannukah gifts.
People, despite their professions of belief, can be killers.

632 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:26:16pm

re: #629 zombie

I once had some Jehovah's Witnesses for dinner. They were very tasty, if a little fatty.

633 amir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:26:56pm

What Coulter said wasn't offensive, it was just wrong. Christains are not perfected Jews, They are just well meaning people following a false prophet.

634 Fortunate son  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:26:56pm

#587 Stormanager

Don’t get me wrong, I have no love for the Muslim religion, Even the good ones treat their women like garbage. I know of what I speak because I am half Iranian. If that gets me banned so be it.

#591 Charles
I sincerely didn’t know 'moozlimbs' was unwelcome term here and I apologize. For the record, I did learn the term here and have read it on multiple occasions.

Maybe this site wasn’t based on bashing Muslims but you can’t honestly tell me that this is a pro-Muslim blog.

# 600 Lennysquggy

Your words are better. I stand corrected but, it is moot point since my post was deleted.

635 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:27:09pm

re: #630 yochanan

is ann coulter a female? or a tranny? her adam's apple is bigger than mine.

it's an article of faith on the Left that she is a tranny. They relentlessly mock right-wingers for thinking she's a woman.

636 mjwsatx  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:28:03pm

re: #610 muman

Muman,

I got tears in my eyes when I read your post. Your brother must have been one of the few Jews who did not get the message to stay out of the WTC on 9/11.

While I believe that HaShem is all powerful, and I do believe that he knows that mankind must suffer great calamities, I do not believe that these events are all pre-ordained by G-d. He made all of mankind imperfect and He gave us free will which allows us to do great mitzvahs and also great evil. He gave us both yetzer tov and yetzer harah. It was mankind's pure evil that allowed those animals to fly jet airliners into the WTC. It was imperfect man and man alone that murdered your brother. Now we must do all that we can do to make sure that this evil force is stopped for the good of all mankind. We must all use our yetzer tov for this purpose.

May your brother's memory always be for a blessing.

637 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:28:05pm

re: #561 NY Nana

I was somewhat reluctant to weigh in on this.

LOL. Well, if you're a Christian or a Jew, and you have spent anytime on this board, you know when this subject comes up your skating on extremely thin ice.

My feelings parrot Buzzsaw's but he is far more eloquent. The reason I am troubled by Ann's comments is that it again opens old wounds.

I have often said if a Christian wanted to be a good witness, he or she should first live her life accordingly - and you don't do that by starting your conversation with what divides you.

638 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:28:59pm

re: #632 Charles

re: #629 zombie

I once had some Jehovah's Witnesses for dinner. They were very tasty, if a little fatty.

Reminds me of this cartoon.

639 Q-Burn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:30:50pm

No doubt she said it to sell books, but does that make it less despicable because it was said for commercial reasons?

Ann is a deranged harpie from Hades. Mike Huckabee went up a notch in my esteem today when she dissed him.

640 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:31:41pm

I wish people would stop referring to Ann Coulter as "she."

641 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:32:47pm

GOC,

Just because you dont understand something doesnt mean that there is not an explanation. The answers come when you study. It is true that G-d commanded the Israelites to kill the Amalekites. To this day we are commanded to Remember what Amalek did to our people. It is true that most of current day antisemitism comes from descendents of Amalek. Amalek is representative of a people who deny G-ds existance. Amalek wanted to destroy G-d before his own people. I carry this lesson with me each day. Anyone who espouses Amalekian ideology is a hater of Hashem. What I am saying has been taught for many generations. And yet any Rabbi will tell you that we dont really know who is Amalek or who is not. This is why no Rabbi is proclaiming that Jews must kill anyone. A person learns from Torah a way to think, and he takes it into his life. Torah is a blueprint for living the Jewish life. There is nothing evil about this. If you really care about how Amalek is viewed from Jewish perspective, just crack open a Torah...

642 Pete(Detroit)  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:32:48pm

re: #195 Cap'n DOC

Search for O'Flaherty

Saw that, followed the link, checked the library, they have it on disk.
Looking forward to it!

643 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:33:16pm
What Coulter said wasn't offensive, it was just wrong. Christains are not perfected Jews, They are just well meaning people following a false prophet.

Jews might help their case more if they weren't generally so obtuse in mentioning what they think Christians ought to do instead of practicing Christianity. Most Jews are more than happy to mention that they feel Christians are following the wrong path and Jesus is false but oddly don't seem terribly anxious to propose a better path for non-Jews according to Judaism.

644 yochanan  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:34:00pm

re: #636 mjwsatx

Jews have not had a death penalty for well over 2,000 one has to go real far back into history to find these examples. Even secular Israel does not have capital punishment they had to pass a law just for Adolf Eichmann.

645 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:34:55pm

mjwsatx ,

Thank you for your empathy... :)

646 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:35:22pm

re: #634 Fortunate son

Maybe this site wasn’t based on bashing Muslims but you can’t honestly tell me that this is a pro-Muslim blog.

You're posting deliberate slurs like 'moozlimbs' and you're going to point fingers?

And please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say this was a "pro-Muslim" blog.

And it's not an "anti-Muslim" blog, either. It's a pro-reality blog.

647 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:37:07pm

new_tommy,

Not true... The Jewish faith as outlined in Torah expresses the obligations known as Noachide laws {Only 7 commandments} for all non-Jews... All a person needs to do is follow these 7 commandments and they live a righteous life... Everyone, even righteous gentiles, have a place in the world to come {Olam Haba}.

648 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:37:15pm
Ann Coulter’s statement that “Jews Need to Be Perfected by Becoming Christians.”

Ann Coulter needs to be perfected by becoming a mute.

649 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:37:25pm

re: #641 muman

Amalek is representative of a people who deny G-ds existance. .

Lol. So me being an atheist...

650 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:37:28pm
651 yochanan  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:37:36pm

i personally think Ann colter is a 'agent provocateur of the left' planted to make Conservatives look bad. Name one useful thing she has said that others have said better with out the flame throwing she is famous for?

652 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:38:58pm

re: #648 zombie

Ann Coulter’s statement that “Jews Need to Be Perfected by Becoming Christians.”
Ann Coulter needs to be perfected by becoming a mute.

I don't know the exact verse, but I think that's based on something in the Bible.

And I agree, she should stop doing this -- but how else will she keep getting on the New York Times bestseller list?

653 m  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:39:06pm

Let's see...

One tells me I'm going to hell.
One wants to send me there.

Well I know which one I'd rather have as a neighbor.

WTH is going on here?

654 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:39:18pm

GOC,

BTW, the Children of Israel did not destroy Amalek when they could. Because of their mercy on the woman and children of Amalek we are cursed to this day with antisemitism. If only we had utterly destroyed them when Hashem ordered us to, imagine the greatness in this world!

655 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:39:27pm

re: #651 yochanan

i personally think Ann colter is a 'agent provocateur of the left' planted to make Conservatives look bad. Name one useful thing she has said that others have said better with out the flame throwing she is famous for?

I would not be surprised. She's probably a gay activist in drag.

656 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:39:33pm

re: #647 muman

new_tommy,

Not true... The Jewish faith as outlined in Torah expresses the obligations known as Noachide laws {Only 7 commandments} for all non-Jews... All a person needs to do is follow these 7 commandments and they live a righteous life... Everyone, even righteous gentiles, have a place in the world to come {Olam Haba}.

Very good, Muman. But honestly, I hear about 100 comments from Jews to Christians about Jesus being the false messiah or Christianity being wrong for every one exposition of the Noachide laws. Honestly, how many Christians or other non-Jews do you think have ever even heard of such a thing?

657 yochanan  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:41:17pm

re: #655 zombie

^5

658 Trinitytim  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:41:47pm

re: #618 zombie

re: #575 Trinitytim


I believe that Christ is the savior, but I also believe that it is up to each individual to determine his/her own set of beliefs.

But isn't it incumbent among believers to "bring others to Christ'? I don't have the chapter-and-verse quote at my fingertips, but aren't there New Testament passages in which prosletyzing is (don't want to use the wrong word here) praiseworthy/essential/necessary?

Yes it is but my point wasn't that I would not share my beliefs with others because I would gladly speak of my savior to anyone who wished to listen. I would not try to impose by beliefs on someone else nor would I continue to speak of my beliefs to a person who obviously did not want to hear them.

I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts a person's heart to open the mind to the presentation of the gospel. I also believe that this same person has the free will to decide whether or not to accept that calling. It is not up to me to make that decision. In fact, I have absolutely no power to influence that decision beyond presenting the information.

Because I believe that Christ is the Messiah, I obviously would want everyone to receive that free gift. However, I also recognize that each individual has the right to make that decision and I respect that right. It is the most important and the most personal decision that anyone will ever make and I will leave that decision to the person and God.

659 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:41:57pm

new_tommy,

Would you, if you were around during the Exodus, go out and attack the rear of the Jewish column? If you would have you are probrobly a descendent of Amalek. I would not be too proud of that... Amalekians were a very cruel people... They did not just deny G-ds existance, they wanted to prove he didnt exist.

660 Merovign  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:43:32pm

Friendly fire aside, this is what we have to look forward to for the next year - lies and dishonest smears every day. It will only get worse, as they turn every event into a smearfest, and then hurl accusations of smears.

For a whole year.

Yay.

661 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:44:04pm

re: #659 muman

new_tommy,

Would you, if you were around during the Exodus, go out and attack the rear of the Jewish column? If you would have you are probrobly a descendent of Amalek. I would not be too proud of that... Amalekians were a very cruel people... They did not just deny G-ds existance, they wanted to prove he didnt exist.

Lol. I see no need to attack anyone without cause. But then, I'm not the world's most dogmatic atheist either...

662 yochanan  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:44:27pm

in euroland JEWS were forced to debate religion with the threat of prison or expulsion if we didn't.

I will not debate religion.

history is a different matter.

663 Ma Sands  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:44:27pm

re: #629 zombie

I once let some Jehovah's Witnesses into my home. By the time they left, I had successfully converted them to disbelief.


Well, that's a good start. :)

664 Render  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:45:35pm

It would appear as if there is a deliberate attempt to separate adherents of the Jewish and Christian religions.

This is more commonly known as "Divide and Conquer."

HERE
I
STAND,
R

665 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:47:36pm
666 SpartanWoman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:47:51pm

Darn, I'm late to this thread!

I'm a Jewish girl from Jersey and am a fan of Coulter. I take no exception with what she said as I am sure that many Christians see Jews in exactly the way she said. Why this is news or outrageous is bizarre to me

Do I think I need to become a Christian? No

Do I think Christians are perfected Jews? No, they are not Jews at all, not in any sense of the word, Christianity is a different religion with different practices and holidays. Sure it has Jewish rootstock, but an entirely different plant has been grafted on. Christianity has translated and adapted some prayers and uses some of the OT, but that's about it.

AND THAT'S OK! As a NJB named Jesus said "my Father's house has many mansions", and he was merely stating the Jewish view toward the "nations". Jews do not encourage conversion for "salvation", good people are good people, and as an example, you don't have to follow kashrut to find favor with G-d. There is no Jewish prayer that begs G-d to help everyone "see the light" and be Jews, like us.

I think Coulter is a shade ignorant about Judaism, but she's nowhere near an anti-Semite (like Carter). I'm still a fan

667 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:48:16pm

re: #637 goodbye_natalie

I have often said if a Christian wanted to be a good witness, he or she should first live her life accordingly - and you don't do that by starting your conversation with what divides you.

You are a very wise man...any chance of becoming an MD in our part of the woods? :)

Buzz does have quite a way with words. When it is a lighter discussion, I try to aviod eating or drinking at the computer...he causes too many spews!

He caught me unaware earlier today...Fresca™ spew!

668 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:48:43pm

re: #652 Charles

And I agree, she should stop doing this -- but how else will she keep getting on the New York Times bestseller list?

The brouhaha derives from the Left's misapprehension that Ann Coulter is an heroic icon of the Right; by bashing her, they think they're bashing one of our ideological leaders.

The problem with that theory is that Coulter (what little I know of her) seems to be pretty much a paleo-con. And paleo-cons are last century's news. The voting bloc that will decide the next election (as it decided the 2004 election) are the nameless, leaderless "9/11 neocons" of this nation, best exemplified by LGF minions. We may be only 5% of the electorate, but we're in the political "sweet spot": we're the swing vote. And the MSM certainly isn't going to convince me to vote for Hillary by showing me me that Ann Coulter is a jerk. I couldn't care less about the Ann Coulters of this world.

Another key trait of the "LGF voting bloc" is that we focus on the message, not on any particular messenger. So tearing down the reputation of someone the Left thinks is our "hero" has no effect whatsoever on our beliefs.

669 right wing zephyr  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:49:14pm

Way to go Ann! Do we have the video?

670 amir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:49:22pm

re: #643 new_tommy

My comment was a response to Coulters comments. I usually don't make theological arguments because I am not religious myself.

671 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:50:02pm

G-d listens to the prayers of all who call upon him...

But I will no longer argue this issue on this forum. I will part with the following thoughts.

Faith is important for all humans. My religion provides a purpose for life, a life mission. I do love all of mankind, it is a wonderful creation. I work with people from all around the world, with all kinds of beliefs. I work with Christians, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews... It makes no difference to me what a person beleives. What matters to me is how a person acts. My charity is not only to Jewish charities, I give to all kinds of charities. My kindnesses are not only to Jewish people, I am kind to all who come to me. My prayers are not only for the Jewish people, I pray for the welfare of all humanity. I have a special mission regarding the Jewish people, they are my brothers and sisters. Our greater mission is called Tikkun Olam {Fixing the World}. Whether I do anything or not, G-ds plan will be revealed. I await the coming of our savior every day and I pray for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its holy Temple. I have set an example for those around me. I have seen the effect I have on those around me. We are taught to believe that the entire world was created for me {you}. It is ours to make GREAT or ours to make TERRIBLE. I have faith in the human spirit, it was made with wisdom and discernment. Even in the darkest hour I have faith...

672 David IV of Georgia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:50:23pm

re: #157 Big Al

#80 Judith

With deference that is an absurd analogy. Maimonides spoke of the preference of conversion over death. In fact, I think you would be hard pressed to find any rabbi (Orthodox, conservative or Reform) who would ever draw such a comparison. Conversion is always preferable to death because one can always renounce one's conversion but one cannot undo the taking of a life.

[167 B. C.] The king's [Antiochus Epiphanes'] commissioners who were enforcing the apostasy [worshipping the Hellenic gods and the abandoning of the Jewish faith] came to the town of Modein for the sacrifices. Many Israelites gathered round them, but Mattathias [son of John, son of Simeon, a priest of the line of Joarib] and his sons [John known as Gaddi, Simon called Thassi, Judas called Maccabæus, Eleazar called Avaran, and Jonathan called Apphus] drew apart. The king's commissioners then addressed Mattathias as follows, 'You are a respected leader, a great man in this town; you have sons and brothers to support you. Be the first to step forward and conform to the king's decree, as all the nations have done, and the leaders of Judah and the survivors in Jerusalem; you and your sons shall be reckoned among the Friends of the King, you and your sons will be honoured with gold and silver and many presents.' Raising his voice, Mattathias retorted, 'Even if every nation living in the king's dominions obeys him ... as for the king's orders, we will not follow them: we will not swerve from our own religion either to the right or to the left.'
...
Eleazar, one of the foremost teachers of the Law, a man already advanced in years ... had his mouth forced open, to make him eat ... pork. But he resolving to die with honour rather than to live disgraced, walked of his own accord to the torture wheel, having spat the stuff out ... . The people supervising the ritual meal, forbidden by the Law, ... took him aside and privately urged him to have meat brought of a kind he could properly use, ... and only pretend to eat the portions of the sacrificial meat ... . 'Pretence', he said,' does not fit our time of life ... I should only bring defilement and disgrace on my old age. Even though for the moment I avoid execution by man, I can never, living or dead, elude the grasp of the Almighty.' ... So saying, he walked straight to the wheel. (From the books First and Second Maccabees)

Christianity has traditionally seen pretending to follow another faith in order to procure some reward, avoid punishment or to save one's own life as an act as heinous as cold-blooded murder.

673 THELAZYC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:50:27pm

re: #658 Trinitytim

re: #618 zombie


re: #575 Trinitytim

I believe that Christ is the savior, but I also believe that it is up to each individual to determine his/her own set of beliefs.

But isn't it incumbent among believers to "bring others to Christ'? I don't have the chapter-and-verse quote at my fingertips, but aren't there New Testament passages in which prosletyzing is (don't want to use the wrong word here) praiseworthy/essential/necessary?

Yes it is but my point wasn't that I would not share my beliefs with others because I would gladly speak of my savior to anyone who wished to listen. I would not try to impose by beliefs on someone else nor would I continue to speak of my beliefs to a person who obviously did not want to hear them.

I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts a person's heart to open the mind to the presentation of the gospel. I also believe that this same person has the free will to decide whether or not to accept that calling. It is not up to me to make that decision. In fact, I have absolutely no power to influence that decision beyond presenting the information.

Because I believe that Christ is the Messiah, I obviously would want everyone to receive that free gift. However, I also recognize that each individual has the right to make that decision and I respect that right. It is the most important and the most personal decision that anyone will ever make and I will leave that decision to the person and God.

DITTO!

674 J.S.  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:50:41pm

re: #617 grumpy old codger

Netanyahu did a doctoral dissertation? Really? What's the name of it? From what I read he has a master's degree (not a PhD).

675 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:52:40pm

re: #322 Charles

Just received this email:

Nice to see you finally come out of the closet. You find nothing offensive about Coulter saying that Judaism should be discarded? Is that really "standard Christian doctrine"? Holy Heinrich Himmler, Batman!

Yep, now I'm Himmler, because I said this is all a ploy for Coulter to sell her books.

Charles -

Think you are right on the book promotion angle. After all - the old rule is - "Any Publicity is Better than None." Reminds me of the flapdoodle about "Passion of the Christ" - My response was it was all about selling a movie. AND - the MOVIE SOLD - big time, as art - good, religion - good, and as a "stick in the eye" to the Hollywood attitude, ex-cell-ent.
Generally, physical conflict/wars between Jews and Christians ended in the early Post WWII period. More or less mutual respect has prevailed since then. Kind of a universal acceptance of the common beliefs of "The Four Navy Chaplains" who went down with their vessel trying to save their common sailor flock. In this case, I think Ann tried to get a rise out of the interviewer, did, AND didn't realize the bucket of poop she stepped in. Yo, Ann - take a high pressure hot shower and wash the poop off so all we'all can get back to business. AND, Yo Charles - if you are Himmler - I am HAMAN bopping around in downtown Shushan.

-S-

676 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:53:34pm
I've never heard any Jew say that Christians were "on the wrong path." I haven't seen any posts by Jews on this thread which suggested that.

No?

re: #413 muman

Jesus was not Moshiach according to Jewish belief. Moshiach has a very well defined mission and Jesus most certainly did not fufill the mission of Moshiach. If he thought he was and told others, he was a wicked man, leading others astray. G-d gave over 3 million ex-egyptian slaves a revelation at Sinai, a covenent was formed and we were promised that the covenent would NEVER BE RECINDED. We were told that false prophets could come along and perform miracles and we were commanded not to believe such false prophets {i.e. Jesus}. It is completely wrong to believe that someone through one man G-d would change his covenent. If the covenent was to be changed it shouid have been revealed to all of the Jews, not some false prophet {remember that prophecy had left the children of Israel for over 1000 years before Jesus even appeared on the scene}. A human being can fool himself into believing in Idols like Jesus, but G-d is ONE, his name is ONE, and the whole world will know his Unity at the end of days.

re: #633 amir

What Coulter said wasn't offensive, it was just wrong. Christains are not perfected Jews, They are just well meaning people following a false prophet.



Judaism is not a proselytizing religion, though it welcomes those who choose to convert in the face of appropriate discouragement.

I understand that. I understand that according to Rabbinical tradition that potential converts are supposed to be discouraged three times before being accepted, etc. Jews don't usually bring religion up, but when it does come to a discussion of Judaism vs. Christianity, many Jews have no problem making their feelings about Christianity known.

677 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:53:38pm
678 Q-Burn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:53:55pm

Render #664:

It would appear as if there is a deliberate attempt to separate adherents of the Jewish and Christian religions.


By who?

679 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:55:03pm

re: #670 amir

re: #643 new_tommy

My comment was a response to Coulters comments. I usually don't make theological arguments because I am not religious myself.

OK. Neither am I.

680 nolocon  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:55:05pm
Let's see...
One tells me I'm going to hell.
One wants to send me there.
WTH is going on here?

If you don't believe in hell ... then how do you explain New Jersey?

681 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:55:07pm

re: #668 zombie

re: #652 Charles

And I agree, she should stop doing this -- but how else will she keep getting on the New York Times bestseller list?
The brouhaha derives from the Left's misapprehension that Ann Coulter is an heroic icon of the Right; by bashing her, they think they're bashing one of our ideological leaders.

The problem with that theory is that Coulter (what little I know of her) seems to be pretty much a paleo-con. And paleo-cons are last century's news. The voting bloc that will decide the next election (as it decided the 2004 election) are the nameless, leaderless "9/11 neocons" of this nation, best exemplified by LGF minions. We may be only 5% of the electorate, but we're in the political "sweet spot": we're the swing vote. And the MSM certainly isn't going to convince me to vote for Hillary by showing me me that Ann Coulter is a jerk. I couldn't care less about the Ann Coulters of this world.

Another key trait of the "LGF voting bloc" is that we focus on the message, not on any particular messenger. So tearing down the reputation of someone the Left thinks is our "hero" has no effect whatsoever on our beliefs.

I agree. Ann Coulter is no "hero" of mine and I'm not "defending" her remarks -- although I'm certain it's going to be portrayed that way by LGF enemies and stalkers.

But search my posts for "Ann Coulter," and you'll discover that in 6 and a half years, there are 15 posts total that mention her - and in most of them, she's mentioned peripherally, not the subject of the post.

The proper way to handle a self-promoting buffoon who says offensive things on purpose to sell product is to ignore them as much as possible.

Media Matters, on the other hand, has a vested interest in drumming up as much outrage as possible -- and as I wrote above, I'm not interested in being jerked around by them.

682 Carol Herman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:56:19pm

Nope. Nothing offensive. Not any more so than the jokes Don Rickles has told, that have me splitting my sides open with laughter.

What's Ann doing anyway? She's encouraging people to join her in church, and this is a bad thing? Why? You remain free to choose. You're not forced to follow her footsteps.

She's basically an excellent writer; who makes her living and pays her bills, doing what she does. While occasionally, at a college, some nut job throws a pie.

The pie throwing, like Larry Craig's interest in crawling under one toilet stall into another, is actually illegal.

Ann, voicing her own opinion, isn't doing anything that even skirts into illegality.

Maybe, she'd worry if it affected her book sales. Meanwhile, Drudge posted that Alan Greenspan's book came in, in first place. Then, Ann's new book, and then, I think Clarence Thomas' autobiography.

Reading stuff, in general, just opens doors.

And, the best stuff? Gets ya to laugh.

683 nikis-knight  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:57:09pm
Now to be fair I recently found a Christian website that actually tells wives of pedophiles to leave their husbands and protect their children.

pfff. To be really fair, try to find a single christian who would disagree with that!

684 Russkilitlover  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:57:41pm

re: #668 zombie

nameless, leaderless "9/11 neocons"

Ain't that the truth!

685 SpartanWoman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 3:59:57pm

re: #682 Carol Herman
Yep.
re: #680 nolocon

Sometimes I think I DO live in Hell.

686 muman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:00:25pm

Death is preferable to conversion according to most sources. If a Jew dies as opposed to renouncing Hashem it is seen as a Kiddush Hashem {A sanctification of Hashems name}. I dont know who is saying otherwise. It is true that a person can repent, but if he renounces G-d then who is he repenting to?

I also need to explain that Kosher is an important mitzvah. It is paramount to realize that we dont know the value of a mitzvah or the punishment for a sin. As a result it is not good to say that Mitzvah A is greater than Mitzvah B. One should realize that all Mitzvahs are important, and even though we dont do it now we endeavor to follow it in the future. It took me almost 3 years after I returned to start to take on Kashrut. The primary reason for Mitzvahs is that performing them brings Hashem into this world in a spiritual way. Also some poster above {who must have been joking} said that Cheeseburgers are not treif... CHEESEBURGERS ARE TREIF!

I would personally prefer to be tortured to death before converting to a religion which denies Hashems unity in this world.

687 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:00:34pm

re: #678 Q-Burn

Q-Burn -

"By who?" - Answer - Real Easy - The Stalinist useful idiots of IslamoFascism.

-S-

688 amir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:01:07pm

re: #676 new_tommy


but when it does come to a discussion of Judaism vs. Christianity, many Jews have no problem making their feelings about Christianity known.

What's wrong with that?

689 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:02:21pm

By the way, I saw this one coming yesterday, when I received the following email with a press release:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
October 10, 2007

WASHINGTON, D.C. – Today, the National Jewish Democratic Council (NJDC) called on mainstream media outlets to stop inviting Ann Coulter as a guest commentator/pundit and strongly condemned recent comments that Jews should be "perfected" by accepting the New Testament and that America would be better off if Judaism were "thrown away" and all Americans were Christian.

"While Ann Coulter has freedom of speech, news outlets should exercise their freedom to use better judgment," said NJDC Executive Director Ira N. Forman. "Just as media outlets don't invite those who believe that Martians walk the earth to frequently comment on science stories, it's time they stop inviting Ann Coulter to comment on politics."

Media Matters for America has a complete transcript of Coulter's comments -- and video -- available here: [Link: mediamatters.org...]

"How does someone who says that Judaism should be thrown out, that Jews should be 'perfected' and that America would be better off were everyone Christian continue to receive a megaphone and platform from the news networks?" continued Forman. "When will the media say 'enough is enough?'"

Notice that they quote Coulter as saying:

...America would be better off if Judaism were "thrown away"...

But if you read the transcript, you'll discover that Coulter never said this.

Donny Deutsch did, however.

690 Q-Burn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:03:15pm

re: #687 Dr. Shalit

So they are controlling Ann Coulter... or her detractors? I'm confused. Ann threw the bomb. Maybe she is a plant.

691 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:03:22pm

And again, since people seem to keep misunderstanding, I am not defending Coulter. I'm trying to point out that Media Matters is yanking everyone's chains.

692 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:03:47pm

re: #646 Charles

Why does he somehow remind me of Logan?

693 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:04:01pm

re: #688 amir

re: #676 new_tommy


but when it does come to a discussion of Judaism vs. Christianity, many Jews have no problem making their feelings about Christianity known.

What's wrong with that?

Jews like to criticize Christianity but few seem willing to articulate any alternative for Christians.

694 David IV of Georgia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:04:13pm

re: #605 BenZacharia

Even the shema says 'eloheem echad'

literal translation 'one gods',

INCONVENIENT TRUTH
/R

(Render, did I do that right)

Shema Israel: ADONAI Elohenu ADONAI echad while calling HaShem one, still allows that One to be a plurality. Echad does not mean a singularity, but a unity. And Elohenu (from Elohim) is plural. This has been seen as a plurality of honor, but grammatically it does not forbid G-d being a triad.

695 Render  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:04:39pm

re: #678 Q-Burn

The usual answer would be; By those who would benefit the most from such separation.

THE
USUAL
SUSPECTS,
R

696 SpartanWoman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:05:03pm

re: #686 muman

I myself would rather not die a martyr. I would follow in the steps of so many jews who chose life and lived to loudly "reclaim" the heritage they never truly had forsake.

697 grumpy old codger  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:05:04pm

re: #641 muman
Well, you're right. no rabbi is espousing this, hiwever, i think you'd have no problem acting as a Mengele or a Heydrich

698 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:05:57pm

re: #688 amir

re: #676 new_tommy


but when it does come to a discussion of Judaism vs. Christianity, many Jews have no problem making their feelings about Christianity known.

What's wrong with that?

And besides you know how pissed religious Jews can get when Christians dare call Judaism "false." ;-)

699 THELAZYC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:06:35pm

re: #688 amir

re: #676 new_tommy


but when it does come to a discussion of Judaism vs. Christianity, many Jews have no problem making their feelings about Christianity known.

What's wrong with that?

Nothing! However, don't be offended when some "so called Christians" express their feelings about Judaism.

700 SpartanWoman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:07:08pm

re: #691 Charles


And attempting to create a right-wing anti-Semitic straw man for them to valiantly slay...MSM are putzes

701 Render  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:07:56pm

re: #605 BenZacharia

Not really, but close enough that most wouldn't notice.

CARRY
ON,
R

702 mich-again  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:08:30pm

Heck, most Christians need to be perfected by becoming Christians.

703 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:09:20pm

You all follow false religions.

The only true religion is this one.

Mandaeism: Catch the Fever.

:-D

704 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:10:53pm
705 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:11:46pm

re: #686 muman

Muman -

Mitzvot tend to get your attention centered - DON'T THEY!

-S-

706 Former Belgian  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:12:38pm

#641: One could say that Amalek was the first terrorist gang in recorded history. What did they do? Attack defenseless women and children that followed in the wake of the able-bodied Israelites.

There are plenty of references in rabbinical literature to Amalek being not a people but a state of mind, as it were --- one of unadulterated evil. Haman (the villain of the Book of Esther) is referred to as an Amalekite (which could not be biologically the case). Two of the more warlike Israelite tribes were said to have "the seed of Amalek in them". And so on, and so forth. For some source references, see:
[Link: www.weizmann.ac.il...]

Note also that when the English says: "... discomfited the Amalekites by the edge of the sword", the original Hebrew says "weakened" (yachlish) --- i.e., not exterminate but render them militarily impotent.

My favorite is the passage where the descendants of Amalek are said to be studying Torah in the academies of Bnei Brak. They "blotted the memory of Amalek out from under Heaven" --- the Amalek in their own hearts.

707 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:13:36pm

re: #690 Q-Burn

Q-Burn -

Not A Plant! - A Bombthrower - YES!

-S-

708 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:13:46pm
709 SpartanWoman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:14:09pm

I often view religion from the Saxe-ian perspective:


John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indian legend,

It was six men of Indostan,
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approach'd the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," -quoth he- "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee:
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," -quoth he,-
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said- "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," -quoth he,- "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL,

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean;
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

710 right wing zephyr  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:14:21pm

David Horowitz (when asked) once said that Ann Coulter is a brilliant satirist. That's about right. She had that friggin' Duetsch all tied up in a faggot and was beating him relentlessly.

711 amir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:16:21pm

re: #693 new_tommy

re: #688 amir


re: #676 new_tommy

but when it does come to a discussion of Judaism vs. Christianity, many Jews have no problem making their feelings about Christianity known.

What's wrong with that?

Jews like to criticize Christianity but few seem willing to articulate any alternative for Christians.

So it would be better if they tried to convert them? That's the most reasonable alternative I can think of. But Jews don't believe in prosletyzing. Now, being Jewish and having grown up in the United States I have encountered a few Christains who tried to convert me and a few Jews for Jesus. I always just ignored them. It is my opinion that Jews who criticize Christianity usually do it after the Christians approach them first. In fact I remeber at Jewish camp and Hebrew school they would hand out flyers on how to respond to Christians that try to convert. Not how to convert a Christain or how to start an argument with a Christain. In fact I would never have made the comment I made if it were not as a responce to Coulter calling me imperfect.

712 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:16:38pm

re: #704 buzzsawmonkey

Magnificent post. I agree with every word.

713 SpartanWoman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:16:43pm

re: #710 right wing zephyr

David Horowitz (when asked) once said that Ann Coulter is a brilliant satirist. That's about right. She had that friggin' Duetsch all tied up in a faggot and was beating him relentlessly.

And he'd be right. Now the dems are hopelessly mired in wild denunciations of yet another non-event.

714 Q-Burn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:17:34pm

re: #707 Dr. Shalit

re: #690 Q-Burn

Q-Burn -

Not A Plant! - A Bombthrower - YES!

-S-

OK, I think I've got it. It's OK to divide Jews and Christians for commercial reasons, but not OK to draw attention to it for ideological reasons. Is that about right?

715 Sabraguy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:17:40pm

re: #309 LanceKates

re: #287 zeir

Ahh... so the holocaust was not the fault of Hitler, but part of a Christian goal to wipe out the Jews? That's your real belief?

Holy crap. I'm SO tired of this recycled lie.

Hitler wasn't a christian, the holocaust wasn't christian, christians weren't behind the holocaust, christians don't want to kill or wipe away the Jews, christians don't hold secret meetings to find ways of getting rid of Jews, nazis weren't christian, MANY christians died in the holocaust.

Many Christians hated Hitler. But many Christians also supported Hitler. There were plenty of Nazis amongst the Catholic priesthood. Not all so-called Christians follow the teachings of Jesus.

716 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:19:04pm

re: #704 buzzsawmonkey


That Christians disagree is what makes them Christians. Just as I have no problem with Christians believing Jesus is the Messiah as long as they do not insist I do, Christians should be sufficiently steadfast in their faith to be able to deal with a few million Jews saying, "Sorry, but we disagree."

But why must some Jews throw a fit when Christians say to Jews "Sorry, but we disagree."


Yes, a lot of Jews dislike--even hate and fear--Christianity. There is almost 2000 years of history which lies behind that mutual hostility--but, as I have noted repeatedly, we here in the US are blessed by the fact that much of the reason for that hostility has never taken root here.

But by the way some Jews act, you would never know it. There doesn't seem to be any break in many Jews' mentalities between European history and American history.

Yes, a lot of Jews, even here, have some residual misgivings about Christianity,

No kidding.

but I think most are bent on getting past that,

I wish. It isn't just religious Jews either. As I've mentioned before, many secular American Jews seem more afraid of Bible-thumpers from rural Kansas than they do jihadists entering our country from the Mideast.

717 wanumba  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:19:07pm

re: #678 Q-Burn

Render #664:
It would appear as if there is a deliberate attempt to separate adherents of the Jewish and Christian religions.

By who?

Strawmen.

718 Former Belgian  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:19:23pm

#629: OT: zombie, since you don't seem to have an Email, just wanted to say that I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE your work and website. Even though the Folsom Street pictures nearly cost me one Macbook Pro in mint condition due to acid damage from vomit ;-)

719 neoconundrum  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:21:35pm

Ann Coulter had Donny Deutsch eating right out of her hands.

Now she'll get some free airtime, name recognition - just what she and other's like her thrive on. IMO, Ann was playing around.

Conservatives, especially conservative Christians, have helped Israel and have fought terrorism more than anything Liberal Jews have done.

So Ann Coulter and her comments are small, teeny-weenie potatoes.

As a great admirer of LGF and our fearless leader Charles, and as a very pro-Israel Jew, I say, "Let's move on to more important subjects".

Let's discuss Kucinich's visit last month to the great Baathist nation of Syria...

[Link: www.reformsyria.org...]

720 SpartanWoman  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:21:47pm
I wish. It isn't just religious Jews either. As I've mentioned before, many secular American Jews seem more afraid of Bible-thumpers from rural Kansas than they do jihadists entering our country from the Mideast.

Absolutely right, many of us do have some bizarre knee jerk reaction. And I can imagine that this must alienate Christians who support us and Israel. There seems to be no logic in rejecting allies like this.

721 Q-Burn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:22:25pm
722 amir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:23:45pm

re: #699 THELAZYC

re: #688 amir


re: #676 new_tommy

but when it does come to a discussion of Judaism vs. Christianity, many Jews have no problem making their feelings about Christianity known.

What's wrong with that?

Nothing! However, don't be offended when some "so called Christians" express their feelings about Judaism.

I don't know what you mean by "so called ChristIans" and no I am not offended by most tenents of the Christian faith as I under stand them.

723 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:23:49pm

re: #715 Sabraguy

Not all so-called Christians follow the teachings of Jesus.

Then, they were not Christians. No where in the New Testament are we called upon to kill those who won't convert from whichever religion.

724 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:24:29pm
725 zombie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:25:21pm

re: #718 Former Belgian

#629: OT: zombie, since you don't seem to have an Email, just wanted to say that I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE your work and website. Even though the Folsom Street pictures nearly cost me one Macbook Pro in mint condition due to acid damage from vomit ;-)

Thanks! (Though it breaks my heart to visualize a MacBook Pro dissolving under acidic puke.)

726 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:25:23pm

re: #704 buzzsawmonkey

"Buzz"

Look at it this way - for all the problems over the years, about A BILLION AND A HALF HUMAN BEINGS BASE THEIR RELIGION ON THE TEACHINGS OF A REFORM RABBI.

-s-

727 Render  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:26:26pm

Hey Buzz...

Thank you.

R

728 amir  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:27:53pm

re: #704 buzzsawmonkey
Amir is also an Israeli name (it's both a first and last name) as in former minister of defence Amir Peretz for example.

729 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:28:01pm
730 lucius septimius  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:28:30pm

re: #704 buzzsawmonkey

Brilliant summary and truly the product of a wise man. And I mean that most sincerely.

731 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:29:07pm

After over an hour in traffic, I'm home, and the thread yet lives!

732 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:29:19pm
733 LanceKates  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:29:20pm

re: #715 Sabraguy

Can't be a Christian if you don't follow the Christ.

with that, I'm out. have fun all.

734 mich-again  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:29:25pm

re: #711 amir

Great post. I really don't like most the pushy prosletyzing Christians either. I like letting them know that I'm Catholic and I already know about Jesus.

735 right wing zephyr  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:29:38pm

re: #724 buzzsawmonkey

For the rest, I suggest you scroll up, and particularly that you follow the links on my post #19 in this thread, for I weary of repeating this material.

I did. And man, I can understand why you'd be weary after all that.

736 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:30:43pm

re: #708 buzzsawmonkey

re: #693 new_tommy

Jews like to criticize Christianity but few seem willing to articulate any alternative for Christians.

Just to re-emphasize: Jews saying that Christianity is inappropriate for Jews does not mean, or suggest, that it is inappropriate for Christians.

And if, as a Christian, you believe yours is the proper path, why should you care whether Jews think it is appropriate or not?

I'm an atheist, BTW.

I don't think most Christians really do care. The contemporary Jewish community in America is a relatively small group of people in the grand scheme of tings and most Christians don't even give much thought to and are basically a nonentity for your average American Christian. When I see a media personality on television whom I know to be Jewish and whom your average Jew would know to be Jewish, most Christians aren't even aware of the individual's Jewish background. They just don't think about Jews very much. I believe that Jews think that Christians hold more interest in Jews than Christians actually do. What Christians know about Jews mostly comes from the Bible and some interest in the modern state of Israel stemming from their religious beliefs and, of course, the Holocaust. Christians who don't regularly encounter Jews (other than in passing) in daily life really don't know very much about contemporary Jews or their religion and don't spend much time dwelling on the subject.

737 right wing zephyr  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:30:47pm

re: #734 mich-again

re: #711 amir

... I like letting them know that I'm Catholic and I already know about Jesus.

LOL

738 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:30:50pm

re: #729 buzzsawmonkey

"Buzz" -

Looks like all y'all got EVERYBODY'S ATTENTION!

-S-

739 cosmo  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:31:45pm

re: #646 Charles

It's a Pro-reality Blog™

I like the sound of that. This conceptually offends most on the left, however. Heh heh...

740 Former Belgian  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:32:25pm

buzzsawmonkey et al:

Of course most of the American Jews I've met here (I'm on corporate relocation to one of the bluest of blue states) are kneejerk reflexively liberal. To those willing to listen, I argue that they are fighting the last war (againt "right"-wing Xian antisemitism) and that it's OK to "leave the plantation". Just when some might be convinced, some Jack S (m/f) like Ann Coulter shoots their mouth off and we're back to square one.

I personally couldn't care less whether an Xian supports Israel because he believes we deserve it, because G-d told him to, for reasons of Realpolitik, or because he wants me and my ilk to worship a dead heterodox rabbi. "Sinning by doing the right thing for the wrong reason" is emphatically not a Jewish concept.
I do care about whether that person is a "fairweather friend" or "a friend indeed", because one has to remember tomorrow...

741 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:32:28pm
742 big L  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:33:36pm

Yeah she had Donny really going but toom uch tho
she is becoming like the goofy aunt that comes to Thanksgiving and birthdays...Everyone clenches their gut and rolls their eyes, kind of like a young Maude*
/*from tv sitcom fame, Norman Lear/all inthe family etc.

743 new_tommy  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:33:43pm

re: #736 new_tommy

Sorry, I butchered that post.

744 nolocon  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:34:41pm

If I were a Moonbat Operative, this thread would be an immensely valuable educational exercise on how to cause internal dissension.

745 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:35:00pm

re: #741 buzzsawmonkey

"Buzz" -

Verily, may your cup be quickly refilled - and Runneth Over.

-S-

746 THELAZYC  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:36:30pm

re: #715 Sabraguy

re: #309 LanceKates


re: #287 zeir

Ahh... so the holocaust was not the fault of Hitler, but part of a Christian goal to wipe out the Jews? That's your real belief?

Holy crap. I'm SO tired of this recycled lie.

Hitler wasn't a christian, the holocaust wasn't christian, christians weren't behind the holocaust, christians don't want to kill or wipe away the Jews, christians don't hold secret meetings to find ways of getting rid of Jews, nazis weren't christian, MANY christians died in the holocaust.


Many Christians hated Hitler. But many Christians also supported Hitler. There were plenty of Nazis amongst the Catholic priesthood. Not all so-called Christians follow the teachings of Jesus.

DITTO! A true Christian can't be antisemitic.

747 David IV of Georgia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:37:50pm

I remember being in a grocery store parking lot. A man comes up to me and begins asking me some pretty generic questions about religion. I answered them to his satisfaction. He then asked me some specific questions. My answers troubled him. He began to tell me why I was not 'saved' and why I needed to join his church. He gave me a little Bible printed by his church with certain passages highlighted in such a way as to distort the meaning of those verses.

My God does not force everyone to believe in Him, nor for them to agree with me. Why should I try to do what my God is unwilling to do? If people like the way I live, if something I've done sparks their interest and they want to know why—I'll tell them. Occasionally I'll tell them anyway, but I'll give them an easy out so they don't feel pressured. If anybody joins my faith because someone gave them a high-pressure sales pitch, I'd wonder about their mental state.

748 J.S.  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:38:31pm

re: #726 Dr. Shalit

Now that's hilarious! (or are you just being "satirical" in the Leftist sense?)

749 Render  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:39:06pm

re: #729 buzzsawmonkey

Your #704. Very well done.

===

"Amir" is a fairly common, if slightly odd seeming, Jewish name.

I have a friend whose name is Amir. His family was Moroccan, exiled to Israel in the 1950's. My friend Amir, an IDF veteran, immigrated to America in the late 80's.

SO
IT
GOES,
R

750 Geepers  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:40:56pm

Sabraguy says:

There were plenty of Nazis amongst the Catholic priesthood.

Sure there were.

751 lucius septimius  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:41:11pm

re: #736 new_tommy

re: #708 buzzsawmonkey

re: #693 new_tommy



I don't think most Christians really do care. The contemporary Jewish community in America is a relatively small group of people in the grand scheme of tings and most Christians don't even give much thought to and are basically a nonentity for your average American Christian. When I see a media personality on television whom I know to be Jewish and whom your average Jew would know to be Jewish, most Christians aren't even aware of the individual's Jewish background. They just don't think about Jews very much. I believe that Jews think that Christians hold more interest in Jews than Christians actually do. What Christians know about Jews mostly comes from the Bible and some interest in the modern state of Israel stemming from their religious beliefs and, of course, the Holocaust. Christians who don't regularly encounter Jews (other than in passing) in daily life really don't know very much about contemporary Jews or their religion and don't spend much time dwelling on the subject.

I would say that is definitely true. And what is most interesting is that the evangelical Christian folks I know in fly-over country, many of whom have never met a Jew so far as they know, are generally among the most consistently pro-Israel people I know. And most of them, when they do pause to think about the religious issue basically take the Bible at its word -- Jews are His Chosen People. End of story. And most of them say quite openly that the success of the state of Israel is a sign of divine providence. End of story. And they view the Holocaust as a particularly heinous crime, worse than any other genocide they might have heard of, specifically because it was God's Chosen People who were singled out for destruction.

As far as the Coulter flap is concerned, she's a loose cannon, no doubt about that, and despite years of studying theology I can't make head nor tails of her beliefs. They are idiosyncratic and largely inchoate so far as I can tell. As far as the Media Mutters bunch, though, one must ask the question cui bono? Who profits most from a split between conservative Jews and conservative Christians? Hmm? Let's not keep seeing the same hands ...

752 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:42:32pm

re: #741 buzzsawmonkey

You shed more light than heat!

753 Former Belgian  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:42:43pm

PS to previous comment: And yes, I know very well that the greatest mass-murderer of Jews of all time was, though nominally a Catholic, basically a neo-pagan in outlook, and that many of his entourage dabbled in the occult to some degree or other. And that his "mirror dancer" the Red Tsar, who would probably have unleashed a second Shoah in the (thank G-d) former Soviet Union had he not croaked in 1953, was a rabid atheist. (Even though, ironically, he started out his career as a Russian Orthodox seminary student.)

754 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:43:17pm

BTW, when Jesus sent out the first groups to spread the Good News, he instructed them that if the towns they went to refused them, they should leave. Shake the dust off their shoes of the town, and leave.


Again, some see Christianity as God 2.0, other God 0.33 (see above), but if we all agreed on everything, we'd be Unitarians, and what fun would that be.

755 goodbye_natalie  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:43:37pm

re: #744 nolocon

If I were a Moonbat Operative, this thread would be an immensely valuable educational exercise on how to cause internal dissension.

Very legitimate point but I don't necessarily agree (sorry for the conflict in nature there). For the first time in my adult life, I have witnessed both Jew and Christian put their differences aside to at least discuss this issue. That puts us one step ahead of different races having open and honest dialogue about past conflict.

If it weren't for a measure of dissent from both sides, I would question the honesty.

756 wanumba  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:46:39pm

re: #618 zombie

re: #575 Trinitytim

I believe that Christ is the savior, but I also believe that it is up to each individual to determine his/her own set of beliefs.

But isn't it incumbent among believers to "bring others to Christ'? I don't have the chapter-and-verse quote at my fingertips, but aren't there New Testament passages in which prosletyzing is (don't want to use the wrong word here) praiseworthy/essential/necessary?

It's called Free Will. It's a common misconception. No one can bring another to Christ if the unbeliever isn't interested. The commission to to go out and spread the "Good News" of Christ, that is a free gift of forgiveness of sins, and thus eternal life - to ANYONE ANYWHERE who asks, is just that - go out and tell people. It may not seem obvious here inthe USA, but not a soul in an illiterate village in some backwater Third WOrld country has access to a Bible. They've never heard about it and won't until someones tells them. There are people in comfy homes with swimming pools and maids, and have never heard the true Word of God. They've never opened that dusty book on their bookshelf. They just heard mangled and garbled interpretations, never the real deal. Debate may be part of it, but even after a good debate, one out of a hundred says, "OH!" and the rest go home unmoved - maybe they enjoyed the debate itself and conceded that many good points were made, but no transformation. And still there will will those who despise the concept and hate everything about it. I have seen people who've sat fifteen years in a church, listening to all the sermons, socialize in all church activities, act and appear Christian, then refuse to recite the Apostle's Creed because they have "issues" with it, that is, who Jesus is. That "Christian" is no such thing. Church was a pleasant social event once a week. Those people are unbelievers who sit in the pews. That's the reality.
Just like everything else in the world, you can hand the flyers out for the free dance, but plenty of people decide they have other, more important plans. That's it. There is no such thing as a forced conversion. It's just emergency talk to get someone else's knife away from one's neck. A conversion comes from a genuine change of heart - a profound transformation.

757 nolocon  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:46:58pm

Many Christians hated Hitler. But many Christians also supported Hitler. There were plenty of Nazis amongst the Catholic priesthood. Not all so-called Christians follow the teachings of Jesus.

The Hitler/Holocaust/Christian discussion is rarely constructive.
First, it is rarely based on historical fact but rather on innuendo, myth and propaganda.
Second, it is rarely presented in an honest, contextual manner.

BTW, the originators of the "Christians/Catholics were behind Hitler" story were the post-War Soviet propagandists who (accurately) perceived the Catholic Church as a serious impediment to their hegemony in Europe. Ironically, they were ultimately proved right.

758 right wing zephyr  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:47:16pm

re: #754 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

LOL.

"We should just throw everything else away and we should all be Unitarians?" She responded: "Yeah."

Now we're talking.

759 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:47:27pm

It doesn't make me want to buy her books.

760 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:48:02pm

re: #750 Geepers

Sabraguy says:

There were plenty of Nazis amongst the Catholic priesthood.

Sure there were.


I'm Catholic, know that the Pope wasn't in Hitler's pocket as some have claimed, but if half of Germany (roughly) were Catholics, and almost every town would have a Catholic parish, the fact that while many Catholic priests were imprisoned or executed, but not all, or probably even most, means at least some went along with the program.


I'd like to think most didn't know of the Holocaust, but they had to know of the Nuremberg Laws, for example.

761 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:48:30pm

The left-wingers are desperate.

762 David IV of Georgia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:51:34pm

re: #753 Former Belgian

PS to previous comment: And yes, I know very well that the greatest mass-murderer of Jews of all time was, though nominally a Catholic, basically a neo-pagan in outlook, and that many of his entourage dabbled in the occult to some degree or other. And that his "mirror dancer" the Red Tsar, who would probably have unleashed a second Shoah in the (thank G-d) former Soviet Union had he not croaked in 1953, was a rabid atheist. (Even though, ironically, he started out his career as a Russian Orthodox seminary student.)

He was kicked out of seminary for pornography.

763 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:52:13pm

re: #751 lucius septimius

re: #736 new_tommy


re: #708 buzzsawmonkey

re: #693 new_tommy



I don't think most Christians really do care. The contemporary Jewish community in America is a relatively small group of people in the grand scheme of tings and most Christians don't even give much thought to and are basically a nonentity for your average American Christian. When I see a media personality on television whom I know to be Jewish and whom your average Jew would know to be Jewish, most Christians aren't even aware of the individual's Jewish background. They just don't think about Jews very much. I believe that Jews think that Christians hold more interest in Jews than Christians actually do. What Christians know about Jews mostly comes from the Bible and some interest in the modern state of Israel stemming from their religious beliefs and, of course, the Holocaust. Christians who don't regularly encounter Jews (other than in passing) in daily life really don't know very much about contemporary Jews or their religion and don't spend much time dwelling on the subject.

I would say that is definitely true. And what is most interesting is that the evangelical Christian folks I know in fly-over country, many of whom have never met a Jew so far as they know, are generally among the most consistently pro-Israel people I know. And most of them, when they do pause to think about the religious issue basically take the Bible at its word -- Jews are His Chosen People. End of story. And most of them say quite openly that the success of the state of Israel is a sign of divine providence. End of story. And they view the Holocaust as a particularly heinous crime, worse than any other genocide they might have heard of, specifically because it was God's Chosen People who were singled out for destruction.

As far as the Coulter flap is concerned, she's a loose cannon, no doubt about that, and despite years of studying theology I can't make head nor tails of her beliefs. They are idiosyncratic and largely inchoate so far as I can tell. As far as the Media Mutters bunch, though, one must ask the question cui bono? Who profits most from a split between conservative Jews and conservative Christians? Hmm? Let's not keep seeing the same hands ...


Media Matters was established by the Clintons and supported by Soros, but you probably already knew that.

764 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:52:42pm
765 J.S.  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:54:49pm

re: #760 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

Mostly in southern parts of Germany -- Bavaria (Mengele was an altar boy, but, I guess, psychopaths come in all shapes/forms/etc). and the Spanish were saying mass for the Bavarian corporeal (so they'd get his soul into heaven, etc.)..heard they've stopped that practice, though...

766 lucius septimius  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:57:58pm

re: #763 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet

re: #751 lucius septimius

re: #736 new_tommy


re: #708 buzzsawmonkey


re: #693 new_tommy


Media Matters was established by the Clintons and supported by Soros, but you probably already knew that.

See, I wasn't going to call on you cuz I know you knew the answer.

767 nolocon  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 4:58:34pm
the fact that while many Catholic priests were imprisoned or executed, but not all, or probably even most, means at least some went along with the program.
I'd like to think most didn't know of the Holocaust, but they had to know of the Nuremberg Laws, for example

EVERY American citizen "had to know" of black slavery between 1787 and 1865. Very ... very ... few did anything about it for decades.

Virtualy every American citizen "had to know" of the Jim Crow Laws between 1865 and the 1950s. Very ... very .. few did anything about it. And when they did object, it was NOT in the context that their objections would be met with immediate execution or imprisonment in a concentration camp of yourself and your entire family.

It's deceptively easy to accuse others of indifference or inactivity.

768 mean Gene  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:01:20pm

Most Christians would like to see the whole world become fellow believers.
Just because it isn't going to happen is no reason not to aim high.
When you look around the world to find people willing to kidnap girls and forcibly convert them to a different religion you aren't looking at Christians or Jews (or Hindus or Buddhists or animists or Wiccans) are you?

769 wanumba  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:01:21pm

re: #753 Former Belgian
I'm gonna requote this:
re: #485 wanumba

RULE to REMEMBER WITH CHRISTIAN CHURCHES:

EVERY church is comprised of the following :
1) a small number of committed Christians
2) A larger group of nominal Christians
3) The rest of the congregation are happy pagans.

Using this truth, What happened in Germany during the Nazi reign?
1) small group of committed Christians aided and sheltered the Jews and all other innocent people they could against the Nazis. Some of the Christians survived, saving many Jews by their actions, but others were hauled out and shot in the street as examples to the population and others, like Pastor Deitrich Bonhoffer were hung by the enraged Nazis - the imprisoned Bonhoffer was hung for no purpose - the war had been lost, but the Nazis made extra efforts to make sure he would die.

2) larger group of nominal (in name only) Christians. Laid low, tried to go along to get along, did not have the faith to stand up in front of the guns aimed at them for they were afraid to die and they didn't want their children to be shot in front of them. They were overwhelmed by the incredible evil that pounded at their doors so they made themselves as inconspicuous as possible. Tried to ignore the fires of the death camps nearby, afraid to face the terror there. They lowered their eyes and kept to their lives, holding on desperately to mundane routine.

3) Happy pagans found a carte blanche environment to engage in excesses traditionally held in check by the general Christian culture in normal times. Nazis allowed the basest urges of human nature to run rampant. Found it easy to blame Jews for all ills (their own failures) acted on their sin of coveteousness and turned their neighbors in to be able to take their homes and properties. Allowed raw cruelty to be indulged in the death camps, delighting in the power over other human beings.

Can it repeat? What do ye say?

770 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:01:24pm

re: #632 Charles

re: #629 zombie

I once had some Jehovah's Witnesses for dinner. They were very tasty, if a little fatty.

But their livers went very well with fava beans!

771 Geepers  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:03:27pm

Ed Mahmoud (#760),

the fact that while many Catholic priests were imprisoned or executed, but not all, or probably even most, means at least some went along with the program.

Not exactly sure how that supports the contention that; There were plenty of Nazis amongst the Catholic priesthood.

772 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:03:28pm

re: #764 NY Nana

What a lousy excuse for a human being. The video is almost worse that the transcript because her tone is so condescending.

773 David IV of Georgia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:03:28pm

re: #618 zombie

And He [Jesus] said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel [literal translation is good news] to every creature." Gospel of Mark, chapter 16, verse 15.

Kill, beat, torture, imprison, marginalize, harangue, coerce, corner, bore, et cetera ad nauseam Jesus did not say. He said to preach the good news.
He said to bless those who curse you, pray for those who use you, do good to those who abuse you.

774 ErkWit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:04:08pm

WOW. What a whole bunch'a hoopala.

I agree with Charles, she's just stating the long-standing doctrine of using evangelicalism and missionary work to convert others to Christianity in modern/edgy/extreme terms. The fact that this doctrine has, for the most part, been left by the wayside long ago seems lost on a lot of people, but conversion is still promoted (encouraged, more like) doctrine in the vast majority of Christian faiths (both Catholic and Protestant).

Compare what Ann said with what Islamist RULERS and GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS (not just a pundit selling books) say EVERY DAY about the need to convert EVERYONE and her words seem pretty tame. Another difference is that Ann talks about discarding Judaism via conversion. Muslims regularly talk about discarding Judaism via discarding the Jews!

The excuse almost always given in the Islamists defense is that they come from a different culture and have different values. The reason Ann is disallowed this defense is that she is a white American. What I want to know is how anyone can believe that white Americans, nay, all Americans, are all part of the same culture, with the same values? Because that's what you'd have to believe in order to reprimand Ann for saying what she did.

775 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:04:40pm

re: #771 Geepers

The current Pope was in the Hitler youth.

776 ccoffer  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:04:44pm

Jonny Douche really hit the jack pot with this one.

777 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:06:20pm

vaguely OT, al-Ghour has cancelled an appearance with Senator Boxer in California, because he apparently has to fly to Europe to accept the Nobel Peace Prize.


Boy, just one loser after another...

778 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:07:40pm

re: #771 Geepers

Actual party members? Oh, I have no idea. Not sure if they were allowed to join by either the party or the church.


Point taken.

779 David IV of Georgia  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:10:11pm

re: #775 Killgore Trout

re: #771 Geepers

The current Pope was in the Hitler youth.

I had a scout master who was a Panzer tank commander and a sergeant in the SS when he was 13 years old. When I knew him, his politics were very predictable—if the Nazis had ever been for something, he was dead set against it. In his opinion, the Nazis destroyed Germany.

780 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:11:12pm

re: #585 A Kiwi Infidel

An open letter to our Jewish brothers, with whom I would stand and fight for, hide and protect if necessary, from a Jewish believer in Jesus.

I am reposting this. It takes time time to read so just ask that you save the link as a doc, read it then trash as you will.

781 Geepers  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:11:53pm

Charles (#525),

And one more point -- I have a real resistance to letting Media Matters jerk me around.

You do relize that everytime Ann Coulter's name comes up from now on someone is going to say: "But what about that time she said 'America would be better off if Judaism were thrown away'?"

782 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:13:10pm

re: #779 David IV of Georgia

re: #775 Killgore Trout


re: #771 Geepers

The current Pope was in the Hitler youth.


I had a scout master who was a Panzer tank commander and a sergeant in the SS when he was 13 years old. When I knew him, his politics were very predictable—if the Nazis had ever been for something, he was dead set against it. In his opinion, the Nazis destroyed Germany.

Then he's bloody lucky. I read an historical account of a lad from Hitler Youth who said his Dad reckoned Hitler was a "raving Nazi maniac". His Dad earned a one way ticket to Dachau

783 ccoffer  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:14:22pm

Thats exactly what Jonny Douche was trying to achieve.

784 Q-Burn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:17:19pm

re: #781 Geepers

Charles (#525),

And one more point -- I have a real resistance to letting Media Matters jerk me around.
You do relize that everytime Ann Coulter's name comes up from now on someone is going to say: "But what about that time she said 'America would be better off if Judaism were thrown away'?"

And who's fault is that? If you divide your friends and hand your enemies ammunition for commercial gain, you deserve what you get. Personal responsibility and all.

785 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:18:01pm

re: #772 Killgore Trout

I first saw the article this AM on WND, and felt like I was kicked in the stomach, literally. It is one thing to promote Coulter's book, but quite another to say what she did. Yes, she adores shock value, but what if a Jew would say the same thing re converting all Christians?

/Killgore, I am going to sit down next to the freezer and talk to the frozen salmon.

786 grumpy old codger  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:21:03pm

re: #775 Killgore Trout
And didn't Begin have something to do with the king david hotel incident?

787 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:23:25pm

re: #781 Geepers
She agrees that Judaism should be thrown way.
From the transcript...

DEUTSCH: ...we should just throw Judaism away and we should all be Christians, then, or --
COULTER: Yeah.
DEUTSCH: Really?
COULTER: Well, it's a lot easier. It's kind of a fast track.

She didn't volunteer then information but when asked she agrees twice with the statement that Judaism should be "thrown away".
NYNana has the video link upthread. She's very deliberate about her statement.

788 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:26:02pm

re: #786 grumpy old codger

re: #775 Killgore Trout
And didn't Begin have something to do with the king david hotel incident?


Not defending terrorism of any type from any group, but bomb threats were called in, very specific ones, and the British ignored them. Still wrong, IMHO, but quite different from standard Islamic practice of targetting civilians and aiming to maximize the death toll.

789 Ma Sands  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:26:41pm

re: #741 buzzsawmonkey

Thank you for what you have done on this subject and this thread. you are a pillar --of rationality, and wisdom, and standing in the midst of a long, careful, laying out over and over some great knowledge of the subject. I have learned some things I did not know, or was not sure about. I proffer you a heart full of respect.

790 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:27:04pm

Again, she'll sell more books, or at least thinks she will, if Hillary Stalin-Clinton wins in 2008.

791 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:27:31pm

re: #785 NY Nana

#787 Killgore

The entire transcript is in the WND article. I do not care to post it. IIRC, Charles may also have linked the article in a post he made.

792 Geepers  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:28:36pm

Q-Burn (#784),

Media Matters lied about what Ann Coulter said, and you call that "hand[ing] your ememy ammunition"?

You're one confused individual.

793 wanumba  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:29:11pm

Media Matters and Soros.

Soros the son of the judenrat, is that correct? The judenrat who collaborated with the Nazis to select Jews for the death camps or slavery, isn' t that what they did, to save their own skins? Is that the nature of the spirit behind all this?
THAT organization has the CHUTZPAH to snarl about Ann Coulter who abhors all that? What else is it? Chutzpah doesn't even begin to capture the monstrosity of this evil manipulation of the truth.

Dance, those of you fools who will, to Media Matter's evil tune. If you cannot figure out who your mortal enemy really is, you're dead.

794 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:29:43pm

re: #748 J.S.

re: #726 Dr. Shalit

Now that's hilarious! (or are you just being "satirical" in the Leftist sense?)

J.S. -

Being generally satirical in a SNL Skit kinda way. However in every satire there is at least a grain of truth. The way I generally look at it today, "Same Union - Different Local."

-S-

795 Kagehitokiri  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:30:30pm

looking at the ADL's site, they havent said anything. that says a lot IMHO.

itd be nice if they said they thought it wasnt antisemitic though..

796 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:30:39pm

Killgore: the point is that the press release and Media Matters are not being honest by attributing that quote to her. She did not say it.

797 Q-Burn  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:31:47pm

re: #792 Geepers

See Killgore #787

798 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:32:09pm

And if I falsely attributed a quote to someone, I have no doubt that I'd be corrected within minutes.

799 EC Marm  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:33:29pm

re: #775 Killgore Trout

The current Pope was in the Hitler youth.


And I still carry in my wallet my Selective Service (SS) card signed by then President Richard Nixon. While not necessarily opposed to the conflict in Vietnam, I had no choice in the matter. Which, if someone intended to twist the truth, and deny the reality of that period, would make me affiliated with the SS and a baby killing*, village burning*, napalm dropping fascist by association.

/ * John Kerry's b.s. allegations

800 Charles  Thu, Oct 11, 2007 5:33:56pm

I'm not fond of Coulter (he said for possibly the 30th time today) but I'm even less fond of being manipulated by liars.