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-RetweetVlaams Belang and the US White Supremacist Cesspool

Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 1:45:59 pm PDT

One of the most troubling and disturbing things about the Vlaams Belang controversy (that erupted when I raised questions about the Belgian far-right party’s participation in the counter-jihad movement) is the incredible amount of support for the Vlaams Belang among US white power and neo-Nazi groups.

Researching this issue, I’ve discovered literally hundreds of pro-Vlaams Belang messages posted at sites like Stormfront and Vanguard News (both White Power sites), and at the web site of David Duke. This isn’t guilt by association, either; if the Vlaams Belang had honestly and sincerely repudiated these kinds of views, there would not be any support for the VB among these knuckle-dragging freaks.

You certainly won’t find any support for Little Green Footballs in that crowd, because I have made it abundantly clear that I do not share their mental illnesses, and I don’t want anything to do with them. In fact, LGF is universally despised by them.

Out of these many associations, here’s one that’s especially noxious; in February of this year, Vlaams Belang leaders Filip DeWinter and Frank Vanhecke appeared on a radio show called “The Political Cesspool” (a very apt title), promoted at the web site of notorious white supremacist David Duke.

Pulling on my hip boots and wading into “The Political Cesspool” radio show, I discovered a real viper’s nest of white supremacism and race hatred; the online archives of their show read like a who’s who of White Power nuts, Holocaust deniers, and antisemites that you have to see for yourself to really believe.

On the show’s official web site, at the bottom of the page, you’ll discover links to two of the most notorious hate groups in the US: the Holocaust-denying Institute for Historical Review, and the white supremacist group Council of Conservative Citizens:

From a March 4, 2007 post at the Political Cesspool site, here’s a partial list of the people who often appear on their show:

Gordon Lee Baum, Esq., Peter Brimelow, Filip DeWinter, Dr. David Duke, Paul Fromm, Peter Gemma, Joel LeFevre, Dr. Wayne Lutton, Dr. Kevin MacDonald, Michael Peroutka, Rev. Ted Pike, Larry Pratt, Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, Kyle Rogers, Dr. Tomislav Sunic, Jared Taylor and Frosty Wooldridge.

What do all of these men have in common? They’ve all been guests on The Political Cesspool during the last six weeks - and these are just a few of the luminaries we’ve had the honor of hosting! But, much more than just merely bringing you the most powerful voices of our movement, we actively battle and are unafraid to name the enemies of our shared Cause.

I hadn’t heard of many of those people before this, but after researching them on the web I needed a long hot shower to feel clean again. Look them up for yourself; don’t take my word for it.

The real point behind all this is that letting the counter-jihad movement be tainted by association with groups like the Vlaams Belang is simply not smart. It’s counter-productive in the worst way, because Americans will not support a movement that can be tied to groups with racist and Nazi pasts. I happen to believe it’s also morally wrong. And I don’t believe Filip DeWinter’s smooth evasions, any more than I believe Tariq Ramadan’s.

Exit question: if I had ever appeared on a radio show like this, how much slack do you think I would get from other bloggers and the media in general? And even more to the point: why are so many counter-jihad bloggers willing to cut DeWinter, Vanhecke, and the Vlaams Belang so much slack, despite all these indications that something isn’t right?

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1 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:47:19pm
2 bald headed geek  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:47:22pm

Do the Ron Paul freaks know about this yet? They don't like Jews too much, either...

BHG

3 newton  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:51:21pm

Good points, Charles. I'm against the Islamo-fascists, but I could never associate myself with a Nazis, KKK or bigots of any kind.

I hope people become smart enough to kick those pests out of any relation with the counter-jihadists. They do all of us more harm than good. People of all ethnic backgrounds believe in stopping this wave of enslavement. Let's not give it any more reason to advance!

4 marwan's daughter  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:51:49pm

Thanks for wading in the sewage for us Charles. On one hand, an American university has this indoctrination program that says ALL whites are racists and must be "re-educated". On the other hand, there's the other extreme exemplified by David Duke, Stormfront, Vlaams Belang, the BNP and other bastards. How do you keep your head?

5 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:51:50pm
6 chinesearithmetic  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:52:42pm

Gotta cull the herd. But don't hull the Kurd.

7 Pro-Bush Canuck  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:52:45pm

We also have to be careful not to indulge in hatred directed at all Muslims. Regardless of the problems we have with Islam as an ideology, lumping 1.2 billion people together and calling them evil is little better than what the KKK says about blacks.

8 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:53:07pm
9 PatFromGermany  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:54:21pm

"tainted"

that's exactly what these people do. they taint. they undermine the legitimacy of pro freedom (counter jihad) people as found here on LGF and at so many places throughout the web.

Charles,
I admire your stance on this topic. I couldn't agree more. (Where do I sign)

Nazis hopping on the bandwagon, since nobody actually gives a flying !""§$ about them anymore. Transparent intentions really.

10 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:54:25pm

I've been trolling the white power hate sites in Europe, and you will see the same adoration of VB, BNP, and SD there as well.

11 zmdavid  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:54:32pm

re: #8 taxfreekiller
$0 is much more than that Church's net worth.

12 Sponge  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:55:15pm
You certainly won’t find any support for Little Green Footballs in that crowd, because I have made it abundantly clear that I do not share their mental illnesses, and I don’t want anything to do with them. In fact, LGF is universally despised by them.

Well, that's because we're a left wing hate site...

13 insanity police  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:55:36pm

The Institute for Historical Review is anti-semitic? U of Oregon doesn't care.

Great report Charles! You take a lot of heat for taking this moral position, and you deserve a lot of credit. it would be far too easy to avoid this controversy altogether.

14 Diamond Bullet  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:55:41pm

OT, but I would like to note for the record that I finally received a reply back from the crack PR squad manning the Mosque Formerly Known As The Empire State Building. And it only took them 20 days to craft this astonishingly insightful response!

===
The Empire State Building - Official Website - Message Confirmation
===
Thank you for contacting us. Your message has been sent to one of our representatives
Details---Message Tracking Number: 443951Directed To: 5. Public Relations
Subject: Decision to honor militant Islam
Submitted: Oct 11, 2007 10:20:27 AM--- You will receive an e-mail notification when we respond to your message. Sincerely,The Empire State Building - Official Website ---

15 Fran Porretto  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:55:51pm

What is "white supremacism," as the commenters here understand it? I'm trying to get a feel for the most prevalent interpretation of that phrase.

16 meMarc  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:56:13pm

"Political Cesspool" has had some interesting guest including Pat Buchanan, and Gary Pucket of the Union Gap.

17 FQ Kafir  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:56:32pm

I think some people are so desperate for a movement to take on the radical muslims that they become credulous towards their cause.

18 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:56:34pm

Wow, notice how in the screenshot of Duke's Web page, the "0" in "EURO" is a Celtic cross, the white power symbol.

And Pamela wants to ally with these people? Not good.

19 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:56:56pm

7 Pro-Bush Canuck 10/31/07 1:52:45 pm reply quote report 0

We also have to be careful not to indulge in hatred directed at all Muslims. Regardless of the problems we have with Islam as an ideology, lumping 1.2 billion people together and calling them evil is little better than what the KKK says about blacks.

When we try to single out the Islamofascists, it seems to create a sound basis for calling them evil. Then we're told the act of doing that is discriminatory. We aren't allowed to state our case. Hmmm.
re: #7 Pro-Bush Canuck

20 EC Marm  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:57:15pm
why are so many counter-jihad bloggers willing to cut DeWinter, Vanhecke, and the Vlaams Belang so much slack, despite all these indications that something isn’t right?


I guess IF it was my perception that this was the final battle and it was either my life or those that have pronounced their desire to see me dead, I'd let a neo-Nazi climb in the trench with me and help me in the fight. Perhaps some Europeans see current events as the final battle. My belief is that this is going to be more on the line of a 100 years war. No need to court the extremist element. Yet.

21 avirus  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:57:36pm

Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on

22 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:58:24pm

re: #16 meMarc

"Political Cesspool" has had some interesting guest including Pat Buchanan, and Gary Pucket of the Union Gap.

Wow, Gary Puckett? I liked his stuff when I was a kid.

Now he can rewite their song, "Willpower (it's now or never)", and change it to "White Power (it's now or never)".

23 Ed Mahmoud's Sock Puppet  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:58:29pm

OT

BULLETIN
TROPICAL STORM NOEL ADVISORY NUMBER 17
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL162007 500 PM EDT WED OCT 31 2007

...NOEL LINGERING ALONG THE CUBAN COAST...TROPICAL STORM WATCH ISSUED FOR THE SOUTHEAST FLORIDA COAST...

AT 5PM EDT...2100Z...A TROPICAL STORM WATCH IS IN EFFECT FROM NORTH OF OCEAN REEF TO JUPITER INLET FLORIDA. A TROPICAL STORM WATCH MEANS THAT TROPICAL STORM CONDITIONS ARE POSSIBLE WITHIN THE WATCH AREA.
A TROPICAL STORM WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT FOR THE CUBAN PROVINCES OF SANCTI SPIRITUS...CIEGO DE AVILA...CAMAGUEY...LAS TUNAS... GRANMA...HOLGUIN... SANTIAGO DE CUBA...AND GUANTANAMO.

A TROPICAL STORM WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT FOR THE CENTRAL AND NORTHWESTERN BAHAMAS.

FOR STORM INFORMATION SPECIFIC TO YOUR AREA...INCLUDING POSSIBLE INLAND WATCHES AND WARNINGS...PLEASE MONITOR PRODUCTS ISSUED
BY YOUR LOCAL WEATHER OFFICE.

AT 500 PM EDT...2100Z...THE CENTER OF TROPICAL STORM NOEL WAS LOCATED NEAR LATITUDE 22.6 NORTH... LONGITUDE 78.8 WEST OR ABOUT 190 MILES...305 KM...SOUTH-SOUTHWEST OF NASSAU AND ABOUT 240 MILES...385 KM...SOUTH-SOUTHEAST OF MIAMI FLORIDA.

NOEL HAS BEEN STATIONARY FOR THE LAST SEVERAL HOURS...BUT A GENERALLY NORTHWARD MOTION IS EXPECTED OVER THE NEXT 24 HOURS.

MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS ARE NEAR 50 MPH...85 KM/HR...WITH HIGHER GUSTS. SOME STRENGTHENING IS FORECAST DURING THE NEXT 24 HOURS.

TROPICAL STORM FORCE WINDS EXTEND OUTWARD UP TO 115 MILES...185 KM FROM THE CENTER.

ESTIMATED MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE IS 996 MB...29.41 INCHES.

24 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:58:40pm
25 insanity police  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:58:45pm

re: #21 avirus

Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on

Charles is trying to save the anti-jihad movement. Keeping quiet will only harm us all.

26 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:58:54pm

I'm predicting that the defense is going to be a bunch of people screaming "guilty by association".

Because the VB couldn't possibly know what kind of shows they accept invitations from.

They probably just read just read the initials PC, and thought "oh, perfect."

27 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:59:24pm

I can sense the pressure Charles is under from his stance, normally his posts are a lot more concise than this. I fully support where he is at. It's all about Liberty vs. Tribalism. You see all these hot spots around the world, and when you look close enough you see a tribe, and people seeking power behind them.

It's luddism vs. modernity, creativity vs. conformism, dynamism vs. stasism -- and stasists invariably become statists.

28 maddogg  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 1:59:53pm

Well, since the leftards now proclaim ALL white people racist, must we now come up with a new word for white supremacists? Maybe degrees of racist? I mean, I'm a little confused...

29 meMarc  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:00:21pm

Prussian Blue has also been on the aptly named Political Cesspool.

30 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:01:10pm

re: #8 taxfreekiller

OT
sort of, but a good thing against hate nut cases.

The Phelps Family of anti gay nut cases who act bad at our Fighting Mens services .

GUILTY, $2.9 M in compensatory damages and more to come in punitive damages,
much more than all the members of the Church's net worth.

That's great news, tfk. Maybe the plaintiffs can seize Phelps's property and bulldoze it.

31 Piglet-U93  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:01:53pm

The lesser evil compromise scenario. A old trap we should not fall into. This is not a presidential election. This is a matter of western civilization's survival, intact that is.

32 neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:02:11pm

Brimelow is a founder of the VDARE anti-immigration group; these are, more or less, despicable "let's keep America white" types. Paul Craig Roberts is an economist who is quite an Israel-basher. Haven't heard of most of the others.

I agree 100% that we need to draw a sharp line between honorable anti-Islamofascists and these racist hate-mongers (many of whom, interestingly enough, are sympathetic to their Muslim hate-mongering friends).

33 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:02:56pm

re: #21 avirus

Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on

I disagree -- as long as Charles and others are catching flack over this stance it must continue.

34 gyanai  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:02:59pm

moral clarity

thanks charles, for your sharp moral clarity.

35 Pro-Bush Canuck  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:03:01pm

re: #19 debutaunt

7 Pro-Bush Canuck 10/31/07 1:52:45 pm reply quote report 0

We also have to be careful not to indulge in hatred directed at all Muslims. Regardless of the problems we have with Islam as an ideology, lumping 1.2 billion people together and calling them evil is little better than what the KKK says about blacks.

When we try to single out the Islamofascists, it seems to create a sound basis for calling them evil. Then we're told the act of doing that is discriminatory. We aren't allowed to state our case. Hmmm.
re: #7 Pro-Bush Canuck

I specifically said "all Muslims", and specifically did not say "Islamofascists".

It is the inability to make distinctions like that clear which end up getting us labled wrongly has hate-mongers.

36 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:03:32pm

re: #21 avirus

Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on

This site wouldn't exist if it operated off the ignore principle.

Don't bet on pamela and co coming around to their senses.

This needs EXPOSURE.

37 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:03:51pm

re: #16 meMarc

"Political Cesspool" has had some interesting guest including Pat Buchanan, and Gary Pucket of the Union Gap.

Gary Puckett also wrote the extremely creepy "Young Girl," a paean to pedophilia.

38 Render  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:03:59pm

re: #1 song_and_dance_man

There are no rounds in this fight. There is no closing bell.

FIGHT
ON,
R

39 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:04:21pm

re: #15 Fran Porretto

What is "white supremacism," as the commenters here understand it? I'm trying to get a feel for the most prevalent interpretation of that phrase.

It encompasses all kinds of crap, like the Christian Identity movement. They believe that the original inhabitants of the Holy Land were Aryans, and that the Jews went in and stole their land. That's one example.

40 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:04:30pm

re: #30 Ward Cleaver

re: #8 taxfreekiller


OT
sort of, but a good thing against hate nut cases.

The Phelps Family of anti gay nut cases who act bad at our Fighting Mens services .

GUILTY, $2.9 M in compensatory damages and more to come in punitive damages,
much more than all the members of the Church's net worth.


That's great news, tfk. Maybe the plaintiffs can seize Phelps's property and bulldoze it.

Maybe they will move to Flanders.

41 albusteve  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:04:32pm

re: #31 Piglet-U93

The lesser evil compromise scenario. A old trap we should not fall into. This is not a presidential election. This is a matter of western civilization's survival, intact that is.

ECMarm is right tho...you should consider that pov

42 g3n3r1c  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:04:43pm
43 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:05:21pm

I frankly am surprised that anyone can look at the party platform and the last interview that was just done and see this differently than what has been printed at LGF to further give us info into this matter.

Europe, root these jokers out or don't count on the free west to help.

44 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:05:44pm

re: #37 Charles

re: #16 meMarc


"Political Cesspool" has had some interesting guest including Pat Buchanan, and Gary Pucket of the Union Gap.

Gary Puckett also wrote the extremely creepy "Young Girl," a paean to pedophilia.

Yeah, I remember that. I always assumed that the "young girl" was a teenager. I have it on an LP (original release) somewhere.

45 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:06:04pm

re: #35 Pro-Bush Canuck
#35 Pro-Bush Canuck 10/31/07 2:03:01 pm reply quote report 0

re: #19 debutaunt

7 Pro-Bush Canuck 10/31/07 1:52:45 pm reply quote report 0

We also have to be careful not to indulge in hatred directed at all Muslims. Regardless of the problems we have with Islam as an ideology, lumping 1.2 billion people together and calling them evil is little better than what the KKK says about blacks.

When we try to single out the Islamofascists, it seems to create a sound basis for calling them evil. Then we're told the act of doing that is discriminatory. We aren't allowed to state our case. Hmmm.
re: #7 Pro-Bush Canuck

I specifically said "all Muslims", and specifically did not say "Islamofascists".

It is the inability to make distinctions like that clear which end up getting us labled wrongly has hate-mongers.

Exactly, singling out those who are Islamofascists from all Muslims is a statement of two different and unequal groups of people.

46 marwan's daughter  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:06:21pm

I'm surprised the f-bomb still has his account.

47 Pro-Bush Canuck  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:07:08pm

Young girl, get out of my mind
My love for you is way out of line
Better run girl,
You're much too young girl
With all the charms of a woman
You've kept the secret of your youth
You led me to believe
You're old enough
To give me Love
And now it hurts to know the truth, Oh,

Beneath your perfume and make-up
You're just a baby in disguise
And though you know
That it is wrong to be
Alone with me
That come on look is in your eyes, Oh,

So hurry home to your mama
I'm sure she wonders where you are
Get out of here
Before I have the time
To change my mind
'Cause I'm afraid we'll go too far, Oh,
Young girl

48 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:07:28pm

re: #46 marwan's daughter

I'm surprised the f-bomb still has his account.

Well, as long as he doesn't cross the wrong line, he's still here.

49 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:07:35pm
why are so many counter-jihad bloggers willing to cut DeWinter, Vanhecke, and the Vlaams Belang so much slack, despite all these indications that something isn’t right?


- Charles

I have been giving this a lot of thought. Here is what I have come up with:

For many years, ever since 9-11, those of us who have been concerned about the spread of islamofascism have been mobilizing to fight the jihad on every level, at every turn. We have named the enemy, scouted him, researched him, and combated him when necessary. We have assured one another that we are in this together, and we will fight jihadists no matter what it takes,

We have said to ourselves that other interests are secondary to this cause and can be addressed when and if islamofascism is dealt its final blows. To this end, we have urged one another to put other issues on the back burner, and have militarized ourselves against this one foe.

Now we see there are other foes, other evils, and we CAN NOT necessarily do as we have said we will do. That is, make a deal with the devil himself if we have to in order to fight against radical islam. (I know we have said this, because I have said it too.)

The rhetoric has hit reality. And it is uncomfortable.

50 treesarie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:08:01pm

Why are so many counter-jihad bloggers willing to cut DeWinter, Vanhecke, and the Vlaams Belang so much slack, despite all these indications that something isn’t right?

Denial is a powerful, defense mechanism.

51 harmless  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:08:07pm

Like the Islamists, the neo-Nazis are getting better at hiding their real intent and getting support by attaching themselves to other groups' bandwagons. The BNP's support in the UK was virtually dead when they harped on about blacks, but now they've switched to anti-Muslim and anti-immigration and, worryingly, their support is rising. How fast people forget.

OT, did anyone have a laugh at the "1,000,000 Strong For Stephen T Colbert" facebook group going three times the size of Obama's? I just hope Ron Paul's mob don't get the idea, otherwise we'll have the "Same 12 Posters Posting 1,000,000 Times Strong for Ron Paul" group!

52 avirus  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:08:17pm

re: #25 insanity police

re: #21 avirus

Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on

Charles is trying to save the anti-jihad movement. Keeping quiet will only harm us all.

Charles all ready proved they are Nazis and denounced them, keeping this fight going is just counter productive now, LGF should just lead by example and ignore this f@#%rs trying to jump the anti-jihadi bandwagon

53 insanity police  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:08:18pm

A major problem, as I see it, is that many anti-jihad bloggers who take the opposite position from Charles on this issue (ex: Atlas) are denying the connections to white supremacy and Nazis by Vlaams Belang. Until this reality is recognized, or proof is offered to disprove this evidence, then conversation should not end.

54 albusteve  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:08:24pm

re: #47 Pro-Bush Canuck

Young girl, get out of my mind
My love for you is way out of line
Better run girl,
You're much too young girl
With all the charms of a woman
You've kept the secret of your youth
You led me to believe
You're old enough
To give me Love
And now it hurts to know the truth, Oh,

Beneath your perfume and make-up
You're just a baby in disguise
And though you know
That it is wrong to be
Alone with me
That come on look is in your eyes, Oh,

So hurry home to your mama
I'm sure she wonders where you are
Get out of here
Before I have the time
To change my mind
'Cause I'm afraid we'll go too far, Oh,
Young girl

number 9...number 9

55 Pro-Bush Canuck  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:08:41pm

Pretty creepy is right.

I never really paid attention to those lyrics before...

"So hurry home to your mama
I'm sure she wonders where you are"

This guy sure sounds like he's talking about a child...

56 dicentra  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:09:00pm

It's worth noting that in the Shire Network News interview, DeWinter made a point of saying that it was wrong for the predecessor party of Vlaams Belang to collaborate with the Nazis...

...on the grounds that they didn't get an independent Flemish state, which they hoped the Nazis would give them if they helped out with the Nazi agenda.

So what we have here is a group of people who are so fanatically dedicated to a political goal—Flemish independence—that they were willing to make a deal with the devil to get it, even if that meant sending untold numbers of their countrymen to the camps.

The anti-Islamization movement is subject to the same temptation: hitch up with some unsavories for political expediency, even though the unsavories are inclined to (a) go way too far overboard, even to the point of mass murder, and (b) not give the anti-Islamization movement what it wants, which is a Europe in which the immigrants assimilate better.

Anyone who thinks it's safe to hook up with neo-Nazi types and come out clean at the other end is as delusional as a moonbat who thinks we can negotiate with the jihadis.

57 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:09:18pm
why are so many counter-jihad bloggers willing to cut DeWinter, Vanhecke, and the Vlaams Belang so much slack, despite all these indications that something isn’t right?

Don't know for sure. I can honestly say I don't know a name in that post.

I said months ago on this board (and was surprised some agreed) that I thought Europe, contrary to popular opinion, was going to get fed up with the Sudden Jihadi Syndrome and dhimmitude. I thought time drew short that many Europeans were going to put a major smackdown on a bunch of Muslims, many of them probably innocent bystanders who truly did just want to live in peace.

Maybe it's human nature that when you feel really threatened and your culture as you know it is disappearing, you drop all pretense of good sense and will side with the devil if you feel it necessary to win.

Personally, I think you're trading one major problem for another and it's virtually impossible to restore your reputation once you've chosen to do so.

58 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:09:48pm

re: #52 avirus

ignoring only allows the cockroaches to multiply.

Shining the light scatters them.

LGF has been successful for scattering them don't you think?

59 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:10:02pm

I'm fairly convinced that this is a calculated plan for parties like Vlaams to gain legitimacy. They are hate groups and are under threat of being shut down at any moment. By hitching their wagon to the AntiJihad movement they gain a support network which makes it harder for them to be legally disbanded.

60 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:10:20pm

re: #52 avirus

re: #25 insanity police


re: #21 avirus

Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on

Charles is trying to save the anti-jihad movement. Keeping quiet will only harm us all.

Charles all ready proved they are Nazis and denounced them, keeping this fight going is just counter productive now, LGF should just lead by example and ignore this f@#%rs trying to jump the anti-jihadi bandwagon

Ah, but we also need to definitely distance ourselves from these cretins, else we will be lumped in with them.

61 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:10:25pm
62 Piglet-U93  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:10:27pm

re: #41 albusteve

re: #31 Piglet-U93

The lesser evil compromise scenario. A old trap we should not fall into. This is not a presidential election. This is a matter of western civilization's survival, intact that is.

ECMarm is right tho...you should consider that pov

I agree with ECmarm's comment in respect to last resort and in the trench. But when the war is finally over I do not want to be fighting another. Towards that end we should not contribute to their power base whatsoever.

63 justamomof4  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:11:24pm

re: #19 debutaunt

7 Pro-Bush Canuck 10/31/07 1:52:45 pm reply quote report 0

We also have to be careful not to indulge in hatred directed at all Muslims. Regardless of the problems we have with Islam as an ideology, lumping 1.2 billion people together and calling them evil is little better than what the KKK says about blacks.

When we try to single out the Islamofascists, it seems to create a sound basis for calling them evil. Then we're told the act of doing that is discriminatory. We aren't allowed to state our case. Hmmm.
re: #7 Pro-Bush Canuck

There is a difference between 'hatred' of, and 'distrust' or awareness of the ideology of all muslims. As recently stated by Bruce Tefft:

Like Nazism, Islam is an ideology one chooses to adhere to. Were there "good" or "moderate" Nazis? If not, then no one can claim that there are good or moderate Muslims as they are voluntarily subscribing to an ideology that advocates murder, torture and jihad and does not permit its follower to cherry-pick which parts they believe in. The requirement to accept the Koran as the literal word of God also carries with it the obligation to accept it all. And as you say, the Koran instructs all Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims and all schools of Islamic thought instruct the subjugation of the non-Muslim world through jihad. Therefore, I do not believe it wise to attempt to create artificial distinctions between Muslims that don't really as far as their attitudes towards non-Muslims is concerned.


As the prime minister of Turkey recently said: There is no radical nor moderate Islam. That is an insult to Muslims. There is only Islam.


We may wish to give Muslims the benefit of doubt, due to our humanistic and liberalized Western way of thinking. But treating the enemy as we wish they were, than as they are, will only lead to our ultimate defeat.

64 albusteve  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:11:50pm

re: #52 avirus

re: #25 insanity police


re: #21 avirus

Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on

Charles is trying to save the anti-jihad movement. Keeping quiet will only harm us all.

Charles all ready proved they are Nazis and denounced them, keeping this fight going is just counter productive now, LGF should just lead by example and ignore this f@#%rs trying to jump the anti-jihadi bandwagon

you say its counterproductive now...will it be productive later?...its a good fight and Charles must stay in it imo...in real time

65 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:12:08pm

re: #52 avirus

re: #25 insanity police

re: #21 avirus
Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on
Charles is trying to save the anti-jihad movement. Keeping quiet will only harm us all.
Charles all ready proved they are Nazis and denounced them, keeping this fight going is just counter productive now, LGF should just lead by example and ignore this f@#%rs trying to jump the anti-jihadi bandwagon

I'm not going to ignore it, sorry. And I'm not "keeping a fight going," I'm bringing up more evidence to support my position.

66 insanity police  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:12:18pm

re: #60 Ward Cleaver

Good point.

67 g3n3r1c  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:12:19pm
68 Pro-Bush Canuck  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:12:23pm

re: #61 song_and_dance_man

Of course we could just cut straight to the chase and consider Gary Glitter...

69 EC Marm  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:12:28pm

re: #37 Charles

Gary Puckett also wrote the extremely creepy "Young Girl," a paean to pedophilia.


When I was around 15, the girls in my high school, younger than me, used to play that song, over and over in an after school club I'd go to. That song had some strange appeal to some of them. I agree, creepy.

70 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:12:41pm

re: #55 Pro-Bush Canuck

Pretty creepy is right.

I never really paid attention to those lyrics before...


"So hurry home to your mama
I'm sure she wonders where you are"

This guy sure sounds like he's talking about a child...

Yeah, but it's her coming onto him. If it had been percieved as pedophilia back in 1968, there would have been a huge controversy, even bigger than today.

71 vagabond trader  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:12:44pm

Thank you Charles for your moral integrity. It would be very easy to shrug and go with the enemy of my enemy cliche'. If this tainted bunch are Europe's best defense against Islamofascism, God help them.

72 meMarc  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:12:45pm

Wonder if there's a clip of Pat Buchanan on the cesspool?re: #37 Charles

re: #16 meMarc

"Political Cesspool" has had some interesting guest including Pat Buchanan, and Gary Pucket of the Union Gap.
Gary Puckett also wrote the extremely creepy "Young Girl," a paean to pedophilia.

I remembering wondering just how young that girl was.

73 looking closely  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:13:05pm

Thanks for the extra due diligence on this, Charles.

I'm reposting the link to an article about DeWinter and Vlaams Belang taken from Ha-Aretz, that I put in the last thread on this. DeWinter put this article on his own website, so that says something.

Its really a good read on the topic for Lizards. For obvious reasons, Ha-Aretz is looking at DeWinter from the angle of Jew-hatred, but its a good exposition.

[Link: www.filipdewinter.be...]

highlight here:

Prof. Mude thinks the party is not officially anti-Semitic because there are no anti-Semitic references in its official literature, which he says he studies carefully. However, he notes, there is indeed anti-Semitism among its grass-roots activists. "Dewinter has no problem associating with anti-Semites," he explains. "And you can almost always find someone anti-Semitic around him. The reason is that he is not philo-Semitic; he’s philo-Flemish. His goal is to take over Antwerp and act on behalf of the Flemish. The question of whether this is good for the Jews does not interest him."

Brinckman, however, is certain that Dewinter himself "harbors anti-Semitic feelings. He always associates with anti-Semitic circles and it is impossible that he changed his mind. He now needs to maneuver between his voters, many of whom are very extremist, and the public arena, which demands that he demonstrate moderation."

74 albusteve  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:13:53pm

re: #62 Piglet-U93

re: #41 albusteve


re: #31 Piglet-U93

The lesser evil compromise scenario. A old trap we should not fall into. This is not a presidential election. This is a matter of western civilization's survival, intact that is.

ECMarm is right tho...you should consider that pov

I agree with ECmarm's comment in respect to last resort and in the trench. But when the war is finally over I do not want to be fighting another. Towards that end we should not contribute to their power base whatsoever.

yes...dont predict the future but be ready for it

75 Dirk Diggler  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:14:02pm

neocon,

Brimelow is a founder of the VDARE anti-immigration group; these are, more or less, despicable "let's keep America white" types.

(Rolls eyes) God forbid America be exposed to the horrors of miscegenation.

That would just be the end of all things now, wouldn't it?

76 yochanan  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:14:06pm

frankly jews living in euroland should get out as soon as possible

euro history is full of blood being spilled and almost all the times jews were spilling theirs even if we were not part of the problem.

77 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:14:08pm
78 bald headed geek  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:15:02pm

re: #47 Pro-Bush Canuck

CREEPY, as Charles said.

BHG

79 Pro-Bush Canuck  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:15:53pm

re: #63 justamomof4

If you are saying that all people who happen to be born Muslim are our enemy, then you are completely out of step with the US people, the President, and obviously with the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan who believe they are there to help Muslims develop democratic societies, not to crush and destroy Islam itself.

Islam has many problems, but it cannot and will not be destroyed by the West. It is is simply a fact of life, and it is not the same as Nazism.

80 albusteve  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:16:14pm

re: #77 buzzsawmonkey

re: #55 Pro-Bush Canuck

It could merely be a love song by someone over the age of consent to someone just under it--it was, after all, written for a teen market.

But it does sound like a little more. And yes, it is creepy.

I remember when it was a big, big hit.

I cant get no...no satisfaction

81 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:16:45pm

re: #65 Charles

re: #52 avirus


re: #25 insanity police
re: #21 avirus
Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on
Charles is trying to save the anti-jihad movement. Keeping quiet will only harm us all.
Charles all ready proved they are Nazis and denounced them, keeping this fight going is just counter productive now, LGF should just lead by example and ignore this f@#%rs trying to jump the anti-jihadi bandwagon

I'm not going to ignore it, sorry. And I'm not "keeping a fight going," I'm bringing up more evidence to support my position.

Charles, with all this evidence, those who have allied themselves with VB and SD should have already evicted them from their midst. It's like trying to ignore a steaming pile of dogshit in the middle of your living room. You just can't do it.

82 Pro-Bush Canuck  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:16:52pm

re: #70 Ward Cleaver

re: #55 Pro-Bush Canuck


Pretty creepy is right.

I never really paid attention to those lyrics before...


"So hurry home to your mama
I'm sure she wonders where you are"

This guy sure sounds like he's talking about a child...

Yeah, but it's her coming onto him. If it had been percieved as pedophilia back in 1968, there would have been a huge controversy, even bigger than today.

"She came on to ME" is the numero uno excuse of the child molester.

83 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:17:06pm

I have been independently researching this thing since the start of it.
I found all this, and much much more as well.
It's all true.
And it's even deeper than this.
Everything in this post is correct.
There is a whole global network going on here and DeWinter is a big player.

Here's a preview item...
among a million other things,
I now know where the cross originates from on his shelf... the Jongerenfront

This thing has more twists and turns than San Francisco .
The are intentionally trying to use people like us as cover BTW.

Stay tuned, I promise to post on it within the next few days.

WLGF out

84 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:17:11pm
85 meMarc  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:17:44pm

re: #37 Charles

re: #16 meMarc

"Political Cesspool" has had some interesting guest including Pat Buchanan, and Gary Pucket of the Union Gap.
Gary Puckett also wrote the extremely creepy "Young Girl," a paean to pedophilia.

Words by Muhammad as I recall. Who did the music?

86 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:17:51pm

re: #72 meMarc

Wonder if there's a clip of Pat Buchanan on the cesspool?re: #37 Charles


re: #16 meMarc
"Political Cesspool" has had some interesting guest including Pat Buchanan, and Gary Pucket of the Union Gap.
Gary Puckett also wrote the extremely creepy "Young Girl," a paean to pedophilia.

I remembering wondering just how young that girl was.

I was just a kid, so I didn't think too much about it. I assumed she was a teenager.

87 avirus  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:18:12pm

re: #58 Highrise

re: #52 avirus

ignoring only allows the cockroaches to multiply.

Shining the light scatters them.

LGF has been successful for scattering them don't you think?

by linking to their ugly hate sites? and making pamela publicly come to their defence over and over? (just think of the jump they get on google)

88 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:18:15pm

re: #83 BabbaZee

The are intentionally trying to use people like us as cover BTW.

So be as wise as serpents, and as innocent as doves.

89 looking closely  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:18:17pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

I'm fairly convinced that this is a calculated plan for parties like Vlaams to gain legitimacy. They are hate groups and are under threat of being shut down at any moment. By hitching their wagon to the AntiJihad movement they gain a support network which makes it harder for them to be legally disbanded.

The problem is that they can bring the rest of the movement down with them.

Charles is right on the money on this issue. We simply don't need neo-nazis or their sympathizers on our side; that only discredits any anti-Jihadist movement.

Its one thing to be called a "nazi" (that's pretty much the label given to any non-leftist by the liberals), but its quite another to associate with ACTUAL Nazis, or their somewhat sanitized ideological descendants.

90 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:18:21pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Yup, I think so too. If you look at the SD, they do anything and everything they can to gain legitimacy and become a "mainstream" party.

They still aren't. They don't get invited to political debates, they are regularly slandered in the media, they're routinely stuffed into the "other" category in political polls... Just some examples.

Any opportunity they see to get away from the "fringe party" label, they take. I fully believe this is their intention for aligning with the anti-jihad movement. Their main priority, I'm sure, is what the movement can do for them, not what they can do for the movement.

91 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:18:39pm

I find it very telling the people who want this ignored or smoothed over...

and some even want kumbaya to be sung in some circles among the blogs.

Perhaps different agendas at work but I have to wonder if those people actually read and understand why LGF exists...to shine a light on this stuff and not to ALLY with those who *get it wrong* .

92 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:18:51pm

re: #82 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #70 Ward Cleaver


re: #55 Pro-Bush Canuck

Pretty creepy is right.
I never really paid attention to those lyrics before...

"So hurry home to your mama
I'm sure she wonders where you are"

This guy sure sounds like he's talking about a child...

Yeah, but it's her coming onto him. If it had been percieved as pedophilia back in 1968, there would have been a huge controversy, even bigger than today.

"She came on to ME" is the numero uno excuse of the child molester.

Oh I know. It's just how the lyrics portray it.

93 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:19:53pm

re: #83 BabbaZee

The are intentionally trying to use people like us as cover BTW.

Exactly, which is why Charles should speak up.

94 Render  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:20:17pm

re: #83 BabbaZee

Thank you.

SEER,
R

95 albusteve  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:21:33pm

re: #84 buzzsawmonkey

re: #80 albusteve


I cant get no...no satisfaction

A hymn to sex addiction?

dunno...but it caused a shitstorm at the time...its all about excessive boundries...keep pushing...I dont think its pedophilia tho altho in the Stones case who knows what those cretins were thinking...I love em

96 Lawrence Schmerel  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:21:34pm

If you do a word search for "Jew" on David Duke's web site, his server will crash.

97 opnion  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:21:36pm

re: #79 Pro-Bush Canuck

re: #63 justamomof4

If you are saying that all people who happen to be born Muslim are our enemy, then you are completely out of step with the US people, the President, and obviously with the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan who believe they are there to help Muslims develop democratic societies, not to crush and destroy Islam itself.

Islam has many problems, but it cannot and will not be destroyed by the West. It is is simply a fact of life, and it is not the same as Nazism.


It is also a fact of life that many of the tenets of Islam as taught in the Koran are by any definition evil.
That is not to say that every Muslim is evil. We know that not to be the case. But honestly when you here someone described as a "PIOUS"
Muslim , one who is true to the teachings of the Koran,what do you think of?

98 meMarc  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:21:51pm

There seems to be an audio archive at The Politcal Cesspool but I can't get it to work. Wanted to see what Pat Buchanan had to say.

99 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:21:52pm

re: #87 avirus

atlas is being exposed with every single thread that is put up. It is too bad she allied quickly. I think being cautious can't hurt and it's really the smart avenue that Charles has gone.

Viewing the information on the various threads on this on who supported her has absolutely dwindled after people began to read for themselves this stuff and listening for themselves, not just buying what Charles' puts up.

Again, other stuff is fluff and adds to the whole picture such as the argument of the flags and cross but listening to that interview that Charles put up and just reading the party's platform...


We need a flood light on these people. LGF is it!

100 seekeroftruth  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:22:27pm

Thank you Charles
I think it is really important to highlight that these groups are hitching their wagons, so to speak , to the anti jihadis. The enemy is radical islam. When these nazi/white supremist groups are allowed to be part of the anti jihadist movements they provide a weapon for the enemy - racism. How many times when someone stands up to radical islamics do we see here in this country the cries of racism from CAIR, and others? The passengers and flight attendants of the 6 imnans flight , ...and so on.
There is no reason why any American blogger should be associating themselves with these groups as a way of combatting radical islam.

101 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:22:31pm

re: #96 Lawrence Schmerel

If you do a word search for "Jew" on David Duke's web site, his server will crash.

Promise?

102 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:22:36pm

re: #83 BabbaZee

And if I recall correctly, you were pretty skeptical of my claims at first.

103 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:23:23pm

Here's an example of what VB rhetoric leads to...

Racist Murder "Shocks" Belgium

An 18-year-old man with an an extreme-right background shot and killed a Turkish woman during a racist outrage in Antwerp Thursday.After shooting and severely injuring the 47-year-old Turkish woman, Hans Van Themsche, 18, then shot and killed a pregnant Malinese woman, before killing a two-year-old native Flemish girl.

His rampage ended when a police officer shot Van Themsche in the stomach. He will now undergo police questioning in hospital on Friday.

Van Themsche had shaved his head just days before his shooting spree. But a note later recovered from his home by police suggests that his racist politics was more deeply rooted. His father had been a founding member of the Vlaams Blok, the anti-immigration, Flemish separatist party renamed Vlaams Belang, or Flemish Interest, in 2004 in a bid to broaden its appeal. His aunt, Frieda Van Themsche, is a VB member of the Belgian parliament.The Vlaams Blok has risen from murky neo-fascist roots to reinvent itself as a modern, free-market party and become the biggest in Dutch-speaking Flanders, the richest part of Belgium with 60 percent of the population.

These people are dangerous.

104 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:23:26pm

I know this much. Everyday that goes by, I feel less and less attached and a little more confused just exactly who's got the world's best interests at heart and who doesn't.

Kind of like high school, I never felt entirely like I belonged entirely in one group. Was an athlete but hated the way many jocks strutted. Never fit in the societal crowd, never was a freak.

Sounds like bad poetry...

105 Dianna  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:24:23pm

re: #18 Ward Cleaver

They call it "Odin's cross", and it's not a Celtic Cross.

The number of my Irish Catholic friends who would collapse in screaming horror at that confusion boggles my mind.

106 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:24:23pm

re: #98 meMarc

There seems to be an audio archive at The Politcal Cesspool but I can't get it to work. Wanted to see what Pat Buchanan had to say.

Whenever I hear somebody like Hannity invite Buchanan on as a guest, I just want to slam my head against a wall. NOOO!

107 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:25:28pm

re: #105 Dianna

re: #18 Ward Cleaver

They call it "Odin's cross", and it's not a Celtic Cross.

The number of my Irish Catholic friends who would collapse in screaming horror at that confusion boggles my mind.

You're right. Sorry about that. I gets alot of use in advertising, too.

108 Render  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:26:00pm

Down in the older threads on the subject, those who remain, are no longer bothering to deny the neo-nazi implications. They're reduced to arguing that the neo-nazi's are their only hope.

REVERSE
ORDER,
R

109 g3n3r1c  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:26:12pm

re: #106 Ward Cleaver

Hey if we had listen to Pat back in the 80's and built the wall back then we might have been saved today - Unlike Loradeo TX where they have had 70 ppl kidnapped and killed

110 albusteve  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:26:27pm

re: #104 goodbye_natalie

I know this much. Everyday that goes by, I feel less and less attached and a little more confused just exactly who's got the world's best interests at heart and who doesn't.

Kind of like high school, I never felt entirely like I belonged entirely in one group. Was an athlete but hated the way many jocks strutted. Never fit in the societal crowd, never was a freak.

Sounds like bad poetry...

clean your guns and chill out...I agree...it shouldnt be this complicated

111 neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:26:37pm

re: #75 Dirk Diggler

neocon,

Brimelow is a founder of the VDARE anti-immigration group; these are, more or less, despicable "let's keep America white" types.

(Rolls eyes) God forbid America be exposed to the horrors of miscegenation.

That would just be the end of all things now, wouldn't it?

Yup! Can't have any of that!

I'd like to ask those Buchanan/Brimelow paleocon xenophobes exactly which American Indian tribe they descended from. Amusingly, Brimelow wasn't even born here -- he hails from the UK!

Can we please swap these bozos for more of the likes of Wafa Sultan and Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

112 Pro-Bush Canuck  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:26:56pm

re: #97 opnion

re: #79 Pro-Bush Canuck


re: #63 justamomof4

If you are saying that all people who happen to be born Muslim are our enemy, then you are completely out of step with the US people, the President, and obviously with the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan who believe they are there to help Muslims develop democratic societies, not to crush and destroy Islam itself.

Islam has many problems, but it cannot and will not be destroyed by the West. It is is simply a fact of life, and it is not the same as Nazism.


It is also a fact of life that many of the tenets of Islam as taught in the Koran are by any definition evil.
That is not to say that every Muslim is evil. We know that not to be the case. But honestly when you here someone described as a "PIOUS"
Muslim , one who is true to the teachings of the Koran,what do you think of?

There are arguably some teachings in the Old Testament that could be perceived as evil by today's standards. Religions are flexible things. Some "Christians" are among the most wicked people imaginable, like those scumags who were on the losing end of a lawsuit today re the fallen Marine's funeral.

I've met many Muslims. The vast majority don't seem crazy or violent. I know there is a lot of latent misinformation etc. within Islam, however at the end of the day it will do no good for us to label a major world religion as "evil", any more than it makes sense to label Canada as an evil nation even though we plainly are one (it is legal to murder a baby in the process of being born in Canada).

I am aware as anyone that there are serious problems with Islam. However running around proclaiming Islam is "evil" will get us nowhere fast. We need pragmatic solutions, such as encouraging reform in Muslim societies--which I believe the US military is now doing by example in Iraq.

113 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:27:02pm

re: #104 goodbye_natalie

Never fit in the societal crowd
never was a freak
Didn't date a cheerleader
Couldn't make it as a geek

114 The Shadow Do  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:27:11pm

Charles has correctly identified this site as an ANTI-IDIOTARION blog. That includes idiots of many stripes, some of whom, seeming friendly, have crossed the line in cozying up with VB etc. Not moonbats, but definitely misguided and wending their way to certain embarrassment and eventually idiocy.

Oh, and I, for one, will never get in said foxhole with Nazis or their sympathizers. Not under any circumstance.

115 MAVCON  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:27:58pm

re: #20 EC Marm

why are so many counter-jihad bloggers willing to cut DeWinter, Vanhecke, and the Vlaams Belang so much slack, despite all these indications that something isn’t right?

I guess IF it was my perception that this was the final battle and it was either my life or those that have pronounced their desire to see me dead, I'd let a neo-Nazi climb in the trench with me and help me in the fight. Perhaps some Europeans see current events as the final battle. My belief is that this is going to be more on the line of a 100 years war. No need to court the extremist element. Yet.

i agree but once you hook up with these guys you are tainted for ever ...like herpes. I...cant help liking pamela and gates of vienna anyway though

116 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:28:17pm

Here's the cross that is on my gift list this year. I don't think there will be any confusion about what I mean to say, and what I hold dear to my heart.

117 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:28:30pm

re: #81 Ward Cleaver

If you look at Atlas's blog, as I made the mistake of doing, you will see she is still at it, digging herself deeper and deeper into the cesspool...she cannot even entertain the concept that she ever could be wrong. She is now at a level deep enough to require a diving suit.

Sad, and blind, at the same time.

Charles does not have to prove himself on this at all. He already has, almost a week ago, with his first thread on the subject.

118 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:29:09pm

re: #83 BabbaZee
What a treasure trove of goodies...


August 1990: Action against Anne Frank Foundation
Aux Pays-Bas, suite à une conférence de presse interdite et des bagarres qui la suivirent, Philip Dewinter est arrêté par la police néerlandaise. In the Netherlands, following a press conference and banned the fights that followed, Philip Dewinter was arrested by the Dutch police. Cette conférence de presse était organisée conjointement par le VB et le Centrumpartij 86 (CP 86) pour protester contre une exposition de la Fondation Anne Frank. The press conference was jointly organized by the VB and Centrumpartij 86 (CP 86) to protest against an exhibition of the Anne Frank Foundation. Le CP 86 est un groupuscule d’extrême droite hollandais constitué de néonazis (voir à son sujet la notice du mois de septembre 1992). The CP 86 is a small group of extreme right-wing Dutch consists of neo-Nazis

Nice find!

119 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:30:34pm

re: #109 g3n3r1c

re: #106 Ward Cleaver

Hey if we had listen to Pat back in the 80's and built the wall back then we might have been saved today - Unlike Loradeo TX where they have had 70 ppl kidnapped and killed

Hillary will build the wall... to keep us in!

120 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:30:40pm

re: #114 The Shadow Do

Truumax said it best for me, the nazis would be in his crosshairs as well.

121 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:30:43pm
122 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:30:51pm

re: #108 Render

Is Fjordman still at it?

123 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:31:38pm

re: #117 NY Nana

re: #81 Ward Cleaver

If you look at Atlas's blog, as I made the mistake of doing, you will see she is still at it, digging herself deeper and deeper into the cesspool...she cannot even entertain the concept that she ever could be wrong. She is now at a level deep enough to require a diving suit.

Sad, and blind, at the same time.

Charles does not have to prove himself on this at all. He already has, almost a week ago, with his first thread on the subject.

This hurts especially when I think of how she related to me how many Gellers were lost to the shoah.

124 tarkus  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:32:32pm

Charles...once again I am grateful for all that you do... You have an uncanny sense about when something is fishy. Pamela owes you a huge apology...

125 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:33:14pm

re: #116 mama winger

Here's the cross that is on my gift list this year. I don't think there will be any confusion about what I mean to say, and what I hold dear to my heart.

I drive by a shop building all the time (in Wylie) that has one of those on it, made out of wood.

126 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:33:33pm

re: #122 NY Nana

Yup, he and others have a vested interest in seeing that these parties become established and respected.

127 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:34:10pm

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

The Rolling Stones had a penchant for ending their songs with some off-the-wall lyric...

Start me Up comes to mind...I can remember boogeying to the song and then staring at the glovebox after my mother caught wind of the finale.

128 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:34:14pm

re: #125 Ward Cleaver

re: #116 mama winger

Here's the cross that is on my gift list this year. I don't think there will be any confusion about what I mean to say, and what I hold dear to my heart.

I drive by a shop building all the time (in Wylie) that has one of those on it, made out of wood.

I've looked at lots of variations, and I like that one for its simple statement.

129 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:34:27pm

#117 NY Nana 10/31/07 2:28:30 pm reply quote report 0

re: #81 Ward Cleaver

If you look at Atlas's blog, as I made the mistake of doing, you will see she is still at it, digging herself deeper and deeper into the cesspool...she cannot even entertain the concept that she ever could be wrong. She is now at a level deep enough to require a diving suit.

Sad, and blind, at the same time.

Charles does not have to prove himself on this at all. He already has, almost a week ago, with his first thread on the subject.

I'm impressed with the way he continues to search and dig into the steaming pile. It's a continuing discovery of what reality actually is - a noble endeavor.
re: #117 NY Nana

130 avirus  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:35:22pm

re: #65 Charles

re: #52 avirus

re: #25 insanity police

re: #21 avirus

Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on

Charles is trying to save the anti-jihad movement. Keeping quiet will only harm us all.

Charles all ready proved they are Nazis and denounced them, keeping this fight going is just counter productive now, LGF should just lead by example and ignore this f@#%rs trying to jump the anti-jihadi bandwagon

I'm not going to ignore it, sorry. And I'm not "keeping a fight going," I'm bringing up more evidence to support my position.

i just hope this is the right approach, i was convinced that you were right at the begging when i saw their pictures and if this is not enough for Pamela then she probably just decided that my enemy's enemy is my friend and this will only make her dig in more

131 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:35:39pm

re: #65 Charles

re: #52 avirus

re: #25 insanity police
re: #21 avirus
Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on
Charles is trying to save the anti-jihad movement. Keeping quiet will only harm us all.
Charles all ready proved they are Nazis and denounced them, keeping this fight going is just counter productive now, LGF should just lead by example and ignore this f@#%rs trying to jump the anti-jihadi bandwagon
I'm not going to ignore it, sorry. And I'm not "keeping a fight going," I'm bringing up more evidence to support my position.

I hope you never ignore it. In parts of the U.S., these people are raising kids making death threats which run Jewish kids out of public schools, put swastika post-its all over the front of a Jewish preschool, and call in a bomb scare at that preschool requiring dogs to clear the building before the kids could go back in. Luckily, the AF had trained dogs out on base that they brought in to search the building. It doesn't happen often, but if LGF and Co. were to team with associated groups, it would be a very big bummer. Atlas must feel more threatened by the Islamicists than by the skinhead people. Maybe she lives in a bigger Jewish community and so isn't as affected by them. Go Charles.

132 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:35:44pm

re: #102 Charles

It looks like Babba has finally seen the truth...and admitted it, unlike Atlas.

133 mkanderson  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:37:19pm

The problem I have with this is how the term racism has been thrown about so much by the liberals that they've made the debate about race and not about militant Islam. So now the real racists think they have a cause they can join and the liberals get to point and say, "see they are racists." Nothing good can come from this.

134 looking closely  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:37:40pm

re: #103 Killgore Trout

Here's an example of what VB rhetoric leads to...

Racist Murder "Shocks" Belgium

These people are dangerous.


I think its fairer to say some of these people are dangerous.

The party comprises something like 25% of the vote in Belgium. Its a pretty big group, and they're not all racists, Nazis, and whackos.

135 meMarc  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:37:47pm

re: #106 Ward Cleaver

re: #98 meMarc

There seems to be an audio archive at The Politcal Cesspool but I can't get it to work. Wanted to see what Pat Buchanan had to say.
Whenever I hear somebody like Hannity invite Buchanan on as a guest, I just want to slam my head against a wall. NOOO!


Hannity can be such a stooge, at least on his radio show. His "You're a great American" greeting is bodering on Hare Kkrishna-ism. Another guest they had on the cesspool was Kirkpatric Sale. When was the last time you heard of him? I thought the internet would have done the neo-Luddite in.

136 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:38:19pm

re: #122 NY Nana

It is funny how he said he was going to take a break and told Charles to take one as well. Then he comes back and threatens Charles because Charles didn't do his bidding.

I had no particular intention of picking a fight with Charles, but I will if I have to.


He had no answer really except Charles forced his hand when I asked what gun was put to his head to come back.

137 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:38:24pm

re: #132 NY Nana

re: #102 Charles

It looks like Babba has finally seen the truth...and admitted it, unlike Atlas.

It took me a few days, as well. Simply reading through all the links and the information took some time. I am one of those people that needs to sit and think on things for a bit. But the evidence is clear, no doubt.

138 shells  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:39:18pm

just to say THANK YOU once again for proving that although most of this world has fallen deeply into the moral relativism cesspool of humanity, those of us on the right still know the difference between right and wrong.
thank you for keeping up the good fight Charles! your work and devotion to the truth gives many of us the faith to keep following in this path.
sincerely, Shelley
(the last of the 6 conservatives still keeping up the good fight up here in Quebec,canuckistan)

139 avirus  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:40:40pm

re: #131 Sunlight

re: #65 Charles

re: #52 avirus

re: #25 insanity police

re: #21 avirus
Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on

Charles is trying to save the anti-jihad movement. Keeping quiet will only harm us all.

Charles all ready proved they are Nazis and denounced them, keeping this fight going is just counter productive now, LGF should just lead by example and ignore this f@#%rs trying to jump the anti-jihadi bandwagon

I'm not going to ignore it, sorry. And I'm not "keeping a fight going," I'm bringing up more evidence to support my position.

I hope you never ignore it. In parts of the U.S., these people are raising kids making death threats which run Jewish kids out of public schools, put swastika post-its all over the front of a Jewish preschool, and call in a bomb scare at that preschool requiring dogs to clear the building before the kids could go back in. Luckily, the AF had trained dogs out on base that they brought in to search the building. It doesn't happen often, but if LGF and Co. were to team with associated groups, it would be a very big bummer. Atlas must feel more threatened by the Islamicists than by the skinhead people. Maybe she lives in a bigger Jewish community and so isn't as affected by them. Go Charles.

i didn't say to just ignore them i said denounce them and don't debate it forthere as it gives them legitimacy and publicity

140 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:40:43pm

re: #138 shells

(the last of the 6 conservatives still keeping up the good fight up here in Quebec,canuckistan)

LOL! Hold the fort, shells. We need you up there :)

141 LanceKates  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:41:12pm

re: #116 mama winger

I do like that and considered getting it as well.

I just don't wear jewelry though. I have considered getting it anyway, to put on my rear view mirror. (but I even get annoyed by things hanging on my rear view mirror. heh.)

On topic:

racism blows big baby chunks.

142 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:41:23pm

re: #123 Ward Cleaver

That use of her lost family members was to me, as a Jew, who also lost an unknown number of relatives in the ovens, the most offensive. This was put up as a shield, and the cheapest shot of all that she took.

I can't remember her original statement..it was that all Europeans were dishonest, or something like that...anyone remember the exact words?

She has gone beyond the Pale...using the Holocaust as a Trojan horse, while she sucks up to the neo-nazis?

Unforgivable.

143 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:42:31pm

What I can't figure out is why this has to turn into the politics of race, religion, gender, etc. in the U.S. It's fine to be friends with the Euros, but one of the greatest strengths of the U.S. system is that somehow the Constitution (?) has kept us from degenerating into the coalition politics of the Euros (and Israelis, too, unfortunately) that ends up giving undue influence to undesireables. The lists the parties have rather than individual candidates and the multitude of parties are just a big muddy bog. I don't want us to join into that coalition thinking that has us overlooking BIG issues.

144 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:43:08pm
145 J.S.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:43:17pm

I see parallels between extremist/radical Islam and the White Power groups. Each have "rabble rousers", "leaders" who make appeals to their "base" (the "base" typically is powerless, marginalized, uneducated, feels itself "threatened" or "under attack"). (One of the comments I left out yesterday was when one of the Cesspool interviewers spoke of a "genocide against the south"). The ideologue leaders always paint a rosy picture of some "idyllic, mythic past" -- before "the troubles" arrived. They also build up the "base" by claiming that the base is "superior" (in terms of religion/race/intelligence, etc.) But, then, of course, there's the obvious contradiction -- if "the base" is so obviously "superior", what then accounts for their inferior status? This is when the ideologues will develop a conspiracy theory to account or "explain" why "the base" is being "held back." So you get the secret cabals of nefarious types plotting against the rising up of "the base." And while painting the base as "angelic" (Manichean split occurs), you develop a scape-goat which epitomizes all "evil." All hatred, hostility, pent-up frustrations, etc., is directed against the scape-goat. Thus we get the inevitable spasms of violence. (this is the briefest of sketches -- but I think primarily -- fascistic thinking is grounded in these non-existent fantasy worlds -- very little is to be found "in reality." From the all-encompassing sweeping generalizations about "the good guys'" and the "bad guys" to the idealized past -- it's a mythic fantasy-land. I think most "realists" can spot it and know when to draw the line. (But there are others who'll kept swept up in this -- they're the problem).

146 The Shadow Do  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:43:37pm

re: #139 avirus

don't debate it forthere as it gives them legitimacy and publicity


I disagree. Debate is like sunshine - a very effective disinfectant.

147 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:43:58pm

re: #139 avirus


i didn't say to just ignore them i said denounce them and don't debate it forthere as it gives them legitimacy and publicity

But debating it here didn't end up giving it legitimacy at all, it exposed it. If anything it has shown more people what happened. Fewer people are standing up for that group. I can only hope the europeans will look into it more even if their pride is hurt on LGF to post as such.

148 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:44:44pm

re: #134 looking closely

No, but raising children with that kind of racist hatred is very dangerous.

149 Promethea  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:45:01pm

re: #20 EC Marm

My belief is that this is going to be more on the line of a 100 years war. No need to court the extremist element. Yet.

Agree. We all need to think long-term strategy. Islam in its murderous phase will not disappear overnight. Right now the Wahhabists have the Saudi billions at their disposal.

This is a long fight, and hanging out with white supremacists is not the way to go.

150 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:45:32pm

re: #83 BabbaZee

I have been independently researching this thing since the start of it.
I found all this, and much much more as well.
It's all true.
And it's even deeper than this.
Everything in this post is correct.
There is a whole global network going on here and DeWinter is a big player.

Here's a preview item...
among a million other things,
I now know where the cross originates from on his shelf... the Jongerenfront

This thing has more twists and turns than San Francisco .
The are intentionally trying to use people like us as cover BTW.

Stay tuned, I promise to post on it within the next few days.

WLGF out


Agreed Babba, and good research. I also posted a link last night to the current publication of Vlaams Belang's magazine. In it you see a rat with the white power armband, and you see an advertisement for an NSV rally.

151 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:45:41pm

I like turtles.

152 lgfvidz  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:46:18pm

Charles

I hadn’t heard of many of those people before this, but after researching them on the web I needed a long hot shower to feel clean again. Look them up for yourself; don’t take my word for it.

Thats okay. We believe you. I also prefer to not step foot in jackassville.

153 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:46:30pm

Everybody should take a gander at Babba's #83, Very enlightening.

154 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:47:08pm

re: #150 Thanos

Could you repost? I missed it.

155 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:47:18pm

re: #139 avirus

re: #131 Sunlight

re: #65 Charles
re: #52 avirus
re: #25 insanity police
re: #21 avirus
Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on
Charles is trying to save the anti-jihad movement. Keeping quiet will only harm us all.
Charles all ready proved they are Nazis and denounced them, keeping this fight going is just counter productive now, LGF should just lead by example and ignore this f@#%rs trying to jump the anti-jihadi bandwagon
I'm not going to ignore it, sorry. And I'm not "keeping a fight going," I'm bringing up more evidence to support my position.
I hope you never ignore it. In parts of the U.S., these people are raising kids making death threats which run Jewish kids out of public schools, put swastika post-its all over the front of a Jewish preschool, and call in a bomb scare at that preschool requiring dogs to clear the building before the kids could go back in. Luckily, the AF had trained dogs out on base that they brought in to search the building. It doesn't happen often, but if LGF and Co. were to team with associated groups, it would be a very big bummer. Atlas must feel more threatened by the Islamicists than by the skinhead people. Maybe she lives in a bigger Jewish community and so isn't as affected by them. Go Charles.
i didn't say to just ignore them i said denounce them and don't debate it forthere as it gives them legitimacy and publicity

Silence is the very worst thing that can happen. It will result in disaster. It does not give them legitimacy and publicity, it exposes them to the light. Most Americans are fabulous and will choose right.

156 therewaslight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:47:33pm

re: #20 EC Marm


I guess IF it was my perception that this was the final battle and it was either my life or those that have pronounced their desire to see me dead, I'd let a neo-Nazi climb in the trench with me and help me in the fight. Perhaps some Europeans see current events as the final battle. My belief is that this is going to be more on the line of a 100 years war. No need to court the extremist element. Yet.

What?

Final battle?

What are you talking about?

There never should be a reason to "court the extremist element." If you think like that you're one of them.

As I have said before, this idea of Fjordmans (and others, I suppose) that a European civil war between Muslims and Europeans is inevitable is ludicrous. Facts on the ground suggest two societies splitting apart with the government above being neutral with censorship for those who "rock the boat" but still wholly white European and liberal in outlook.

It's a complex issue. What isn't hard to understand though is that these are Nazis, they hate Israel and they believe in a Masterrace.

157 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:47:48pm

re: #102 Charles

Yes I was. Definitely.
Not because it was you making the claim,
but because I had zero knowledge of the situation and I knew it. What I knew about European politics a week ago was zero. And your original post was not enough for me, I saw legitimate reasons not to sign that so called "holocaust bill" after reviewing it myself and also I did not trust the expo site.

Additionally I did not want to rush to call anyone a "Nazi" who really may just legitimately be trying to save their people from Islam and Communism, I have been called Nazi plenty for that myself.

Also I felt that the effort of so many really great people involved in the counter jihad conference got lost in the hubub.
Which it did.

I am simply shocked at this point that Spencer or Bostom or Bat Y'eor did not figure this crap out in advance.

I have not investigated the SD yet.
Only the Vlaams Belang, DeWinter and the major Flemish players , and those other MFers they intersect with worldwide.

I still can not make a statement regarding SD.

158 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:48:20pm

re: #141 LanceKates

racism blows big baby chunks.

/agreed

And I'd have to say that those who back those groups who allow this infiltration knowing this information that Charles has put out and that the parties in question have put in their statements in their party platform and their radio addresses, blows adult chunks.

159 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:48:37pm

Kinda OT, but today I found out that one of my co-workers is a racist. It was just me and him working, and he spouted some pretty vile shit against foreigners in general, and was talking like he represented the common man. Really nasty stuff, ending his tirade with "We don't like them, and they don't like us."

I've only been working there for less than two months, and it's a small workplace, so it's completely the wrong time for me to pick fights with co-workers. Still, it pissed me off so bad that I couldn't call him on it. I was irritated about it the whole day.

If he keeps it up though, I don't know how long I can keep my mouth shut.

//Needs a glass of whisky.

160 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:49:22pm

re: #129 debutaunt

I'm impressed with the way he continues to search and dig into the steaming pile. It's a continuing discovery of what reality actually is - a noble endeavor.

Charles has been like this from the first time I read LGF, and started posting here.

He is a man of integrity, and what other bloggers and some posters have been doing is disgusting, especially here, in Charles' house.

The very few times that Charles put up a thread that he later had the slightest question about? Deleted with an explanation. IIRC, possibly 2 times, as LGF is not called 'the place that fact checks your ass' for nothing! Charles holds himself up to far higher standards than we are held to.

161 g3n3r1c  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:49:33pm

True courage of Iraqi women-
Eyewitness: Woman journalist in Iraq
A group of Iraqi women journalists have been collectively given the 2007 Courage in Journalism Award by the International Women's Media Foundation.

Iraq is one of the most dangerous places in the world for reporters. More than 100 journalists have been killed since the US-led invasion in 2003 - most of them Iraqis.

Award-winner Sahar is one of those women who works for the Baghdad bureau of the American news organisation McClatchy's.

Sahar spoke to George Arney of the BBC Word Service's World Today programme. He asked why she became a journalist.

Sahar: When I thought that not enough was being said and the extent of the damage that has been done to the country is not clear - it cannot be assessed by a lot of people because they did not know what we had. If people do not know what we had, they cannot possibly know what we have lost.

162 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:49:35pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

re: #150 Thanos

Could you repost? I missed it.


Sure let me dig it out.

163 buckykat  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:50:16pm

re: #133 mkanderson

The problem I have with this is how the term racism has been thrown about so much by the liberals that they've made the debate about race and not about militant Islam. So now the real racists think they have a cause they can join and the liberals get to point and say, "see they are racists." Nothing good can come from this.

If there's the slightest hint of an alliance with Nazis LGF will get pulverized in the media. We have to scrupulously avoid any association with white supremacists. While the left can get away with the most unsavory associations and not get called out in the MSM, we know we will not be cut any slack.

164 windhorse  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:50:36pm

re: #151 Ben Hur

I like white powder.

(skiing, that is...)

165 LanceKates  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:50:38pm

re: #158 Highrise

where it gets sticky is when they put in their support on our statements.

I mean, if you have a good program, and the neonazi scum toss in their support... does it negate the good program?

Robert Spencer identified and spoke about this when he condemned those groups, but praised the idea of fighting the islamification of Europe, which I think every non-troll/moby/etc can agree on.

166 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:50:42pm

re: #144 buzzsawmonkey

Trojan whores of the Wannabe Reich?

Perfect. Just perfect. Rotating title?

167 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:51:25pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

You wont believe some of the stuff I have.

Well...yes you will!

I gotta go, it is my chef of the future hour.

BBL maybe

168 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:52:14pm

Excellent work, Charles. Besides exposing VB's alarming associations, this provides a glimpse at just how extensive organized racism is getting to be in this country. It is no longer the domain of hooded Klansmen and illiterate, disenfranchised yahoos.

The media, for their part, seem to ignore these blatant but essentially middle-class racists in favor of promoting the baseless, power-seeking claims of extortionists like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and their Marxists enablers in the academic community.
David Duke in particular has built an invisible empire, so to speak, almost in plain sight. This movement is a festering boil.
It is not a coincidence that Duke and the other upper-crust racists support the academic/media/Muslim view of the current war.

169 albusteve  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:53:02pm

re: #116 mama winger

Here's the cross that is on my gift list this year. I don't think there will be any confusion about what I mean to say, and what I hold dear to my heart.

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

re: #95 albusteve

The controversy over "I Can't Get No (Satisfaction)" when it came out was due to the last verse; "Well I'm goin' down the road, and I'm doin' this and I'm signing that, and I'm tryin' to make some girl (unintelligible, but sounded like, "pregnant")..."

The apparent declaration of open sex and intent to impregnate was shocking to mainstream culture, believe it or not, back in the late '60s.

Just as a reality check, recall that the Supremes' "Love Child" came out around the same time--and that song was about the stigma of being born out of wedlock or having a child born out of wedlock: "This love we're contemplating/Is worth the pain of waiting/We'd only end up hating/The child we may be creating."

How times have changed.

nice breakdown...I got it the first time amigo...it was the early or mid sixties...big difference...I was there haha!

170 LanceKates  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:53:03pm

re: #159 Truumax

I have some racists in the family that MEAN well, but are misdirected.

They dislike the 'urban thug' attitude and lifestyle, but view all blacks as being a part of that.

view all mexicans as illegals, etc.

They don't really hate the PEOPLE, just the attitude and they haven't really ever been pushed to seperate the two.

I don't think anyone can say that Dr. Rice or Powell are the same as 50 cent, you know?

But, the dark side of the force works well in the gray that way.

171 albusteve  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:53:39pm

re: #164 windhorse

re: #151 Ben Hur

I like white powder.

(skiing, that is...)

agreed

172 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:54:04pm

The more folks (and not only at LGF, believe me) dig on Dewinter, the more they are going to find hard evidence connecting him to major White Power groups, for example Haider is said to be one of his 'sponsors'.

The greater disappointment is the reaction by others in the VB: silence, obfuscation, denial, attacking, defending Dewinter, and so on. We've seen as a result of this event disturbing defenses of racial nationalism by well-known European anti-jihadists and rationalizations for allying with such evil, not at a time of war, but at a time of building legitimacy and seeking to change people's minds on Islamization.

The notion that this was a risky effort by some in Flanders to lend trustworthiness to Dewinter and to this group is quite possibly on the mark. LGF, however, has done a remarkable thing in shining an unflinching but reasonable light on this volitile issue that is not going to disappear. That LGF has gotten that point across that we reject unequivocally racial ideology has made some notable people extremely unhappy, as we have abundantly seen already.

173 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:54:09pm

re: #159 Truumax

I have a little trick that gives me great pleasure; If someone is ranting about Jews or blacks (whatever) I usually let them go on and even encourage them a little. After they've dug themselves in good and deep I invent a little white lie that my mother is Jewish or my stepfather is black. Usually the bigot in question will make an excuse and flee the situation. If you're lucky they will stick around and start to backpeddle.

174 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:54:17pm

re: #165 LanceKates

I mean, if you have a good program, and the neonazi scum toss in their support... does it negate the good program?

They have done more than just toss in their support, lance.

The party platform and the radio spot say enough for me with VB...plus the videos. Infiltration is there, some like atlas wish to not see it. This is why I refuse to read atlas any more. I can't trust her sourcing.

To each his own, but Charles is not being quiet about questioning how deep this goes and neither are other lizards even if we take heat.

175 Malatrope  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:54:24pm

Paul Craig Roberts used to essay quite freqently for Newsmax, and his association here makes me wonder why he stopped.

176 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:54:40pm

re: #167 BabbaZee

I look forward to it.

177 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:55:00pm

re: #132 NY Nana

re: #102 Charles

It looks like Babba has finally seen the truth...and admitted it, unlike Atlas.


There was nothing for me to "admit"

I never claimed to know the truth till I knew it, and now I say what I know to be true.

All I did was say I did not know, I would not yell NAZI at anyone till I did, that I was researching it myself, and that I had no use for attacking other people.


/back to the stove

178 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:55:35pm

re: #165 LanceKates


and we must be willing to read the links and other information that has been provided here by some outstanding lizards and Charles and not just go off what or how we think someone is. It can cloud our judgement.

179 allahakchew  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:55:36pm

re: #88 mama winger

re: #83 BabbaZee


The are intentionally trying to use people like us as cover BTW.

So be as wise as serpents, and as innocent as doves.

After 9/11 they set their plan into motion...

180 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:56:09pm

re: #156 therewaslight

There never should be a reason to "court the extremist element." If you think like that you're one of them.

You ought to be a little more careful in throwing your stones. EC Marm is a good poster and I'll assure you no extremist, hatemonger, Jew hater, or power player.

181 LanceKates  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:56:41pm

re: #174 Highrise

well, I was speaking a bit more philosophically or theoretically I guess.

I think Charles has handled this very fairly and very well.

I do think that some of the posters (from both camps) leave a little to be desired (Much more there than here, of course)

182 Golem Akbar  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:57:02pm

Busy today, so this is a hit and run comment, sorry:
Right on Charles! Democracy is the only good replacement for fascism, whether it be Islamic or the White-Power kind. Plenty more to say, but the Lizard Army seems well-prepared. Golem out (for now).

183 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:57:23pm

Ok here's the PDF.
On the very first page you see them all holding banners at their nomination convention and shouting. The shouts and the signs were for "Vlaams Kracht!" or "Flemish Power".

On the last page you see a tribute to their founder, Karel Dillen, who translated a book that called for authoritarian socialist tribal states in Europe and which was a holocaust denial effort to counter the Nuremburg trials.

Now the youth magazine -- correction the youth magazine was from 2003 or 4 ... one minute.

184 albusteve  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:58:04pm

re: #180 goodbye_natalie

re: #156 therewaslight


There never should be a reason to "court the extremist element." If you think like that you're one of them.

You ought to be a little more careful in throwing your stones. EC Marm is a good poster and I'll assure you no extremist, hatemonger, Jew hater, or power player.

go back and read what he said...

185 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:58:05pm

re: #162 Thanos

Oh ...
glad I saw you before I went back

BTW?
They DO have an "armed wing" or militia as you were asking.

186 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:58:16pm

re: #160 NY Nana
160 NY Nana 10/31/07 2:49:22 pm reply quote report 2

re: #129 debutaunt

I'm impressed with the way he continues to search and dig into the steaming pile. It's a continuing discovery of what reality actually is - a noble endeavor.

Charles has been like this from the first time I read LGF, and started posting here.

He is a man of integrity, and what other bloggers and some posters have been doing is disgusting, especially here, in Charles' house.

The very few times that Charles put up a thread that he later had the slightest question about? Deleted with an explanation. IIRC, possibly 2 times, as LGF is not called 'the place that fact checks your ass' for nothing! Charles holds himself up to far higher standards than we are held to.

As I looked through different sites, I found a real comfort zone here. It's stimulating, fun and quite addictive. Charles is amazing - I can't figure out how he does all this. This battle for our lives will last a very long time and this is an invaluable resource to help us stay on top of all the facets we face each day. I'm proud to be a tiny part of this.

187 LanceKates  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:58:24pm

re: #178 Highrise

again, speaking more in generals than this specific example... more about how one handles things like that in the future

but you are right... someone should research the truth of the matter before they 'go off' on how someone else is.

188 Kagehitokiri  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:58:47pm

from what i read (briefly) on the sites defending VB, they ALL claimed LGF/et all were calling VB "nazi" and "antisemitic." i only saw a LITTLE bit of stuff on LGF leaning towards the "nazi" label if i remember correctly.

so it seems to me that by only defending VB from "nazi" and "antisemitic" labels that means the other blogs agree / dont deny that VB IS IN FACT RACIST. :D

which seemed to me the whole point charles was making originally, and continues to do. "white supremacist" etc does not necessarily mean "nazi" and "antisemitic" but this dewinter guy is CLEARLY a racist, and has problems with nonwhites and gays. that couldnt be clearer at the end of the shire news podcast (thanks to hotair for pointing out the exact time of the comments)

i am not remembering the stuff on SD now, but clearly there is no possible argument that dewinter is NOT racist...

which is "fine" but hey, can we PLEASE not give him any respect/encouragement/defense/allegiance?

189 avirus  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:59:15pm

re: #147 Highrise

re: #139 avirus


i didn't say to just ignore them i said denounce them and don't debate it forthere as it gives them legitimacy and publicity

But debating it here didn't end up giving it legitimacy at all, it exposed it. If anything it has shown more people what happened. Fewer people are standing up for that group. I can only hope the europeans will look into it more even if their pride is hurt on LGF to post as such.

are you calling me European? I'm Israeli and just don't want that some Nazi party be discussed in such forums over and over again day by day as if they have a legitimate view point, they are crazy F@#%s that all

190 LanceKates  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:59:40pm

ok ladies and gents, have a good and safe evening.

191 Lauraf  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 2:59:53pm

re: #26 Truumax

I'm predicting that the defense is going to be a bunch of people screaming "guilty by association".

Because the VB couldn't possibly know what kind of shows they accept invitations from.

They probably just read just read the initials PC, and thought "oh, perfect."

That is precisely the "defense" Holocaust denier David Irving has used when his association with white supremacists has been pointed out.

192 Born Again Republican  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:00:52pm

re: #177 BabbaZee

Boortz would be proud of you...

Don't believe anything you read on this web page, or, for that matter, anything you hear on The Neal Boortz Show, unless it is consistent with what you already know to be true, or unless you have taken the time to research the matter to prove its accuracy to your satisfaction. This is known as "doing your homework."

193 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:01:00pm

re: #136 Highrise

He was not banned, I see, but happily has not posted in 2 days...I hope he does not return.

/He and Atlas should start a joint blog.

194 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:01:31pm

What makes a lot of this difficult (and it will only probably get worse) is that there are indeed some points on which many of us might agree with neo-nazi's superficially...securing the borders, fighting islamo-fascism.

While we would probably disagree on methods, there's enough similarity that it would be easy for the left to lump us all into the same basket (as Charles has been concerned about with this VB issue)

The trick will be to remain dissociated from such groups

195 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:01:45pm

re: #173 Killgore Trout
#173 Killgore Trout 10/31/07 2:54:09 pm reply quote report 1

re: #159 Truumax

I have a little trick that gives me great pleasure; If someone is ranting about Jews or blacks (whatever) I usually let them go on and even encourage them a little. After they've dug themselves in good and deep I invent a little white lie that my mother is Jewish or my stepfather is black. Usually the bigot in question will make an excuse and flee the situation. If you're lucky they will stick around and start to backpeddle.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA !

196 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:01:58pm

re: #185 BabbaZee

Somebody had a picture of thier military wing on one of the earlier thread. Very professional looking bunch with rather official looking uniforms.

197 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:02:41pm

re: #181 LanceKates

The phrasing of what others choose to put into the discussions doesn't change the facts of what atlas did or what those parties are doing to whitewash this. This happens no matter if it's on lgf or in a regular discussion.

I strip away what I must to get to the facts.

198 Promethea  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:03:07pm

re: #132 NY Nana

re: #102 Charles

It looks like Babba has finally seen the truth...and admitted it, unlike Atlas.

Being able to change one's mind is the sign of a mature individual. The inability of LLLs to take in new facts is the trait that makes me the most contemptuous of them.

Anyone who can change his/her mind should be proud of his/her openmindness.

199 Dianna  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:03:22pm

re: #159 Truumax

I sympathize, but I think you should call him on it, as politely as possible.

200 wanumba  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:03:49pm

Ugh!
Thanks for putting the waders on for us.
This whole situation is a slight variation on the injunction, "Do not yoke yourselves to unbelievers."

Occasionally, two opposing sides must fight together to defeat a common enemy (USA and Soviet Union against Germany), but that must be accomplished without any attachment, for as soon as the immediate mortal danger is resolved, there are still two opposing camps that will, at some point, be in deadly conflict with each other.

201 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:04:12pm

Here in the States, it will be the activist left and its Muslim sponsors who will have trouble distancing themselves from anti-war, "anti-Zionist" scum like Duke.
With most of the media-industrial complex to cover for them, they probably won't even try.
It is rather similar in fact to the dilemna faced by Democrats in the immediate post-FDR era, how to promote their liberal ideology without alienating the southern segregationist wing of their party.

202 StinkHammer  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:04:51pm
From a March 4, 2007 post at the Political Cesspool site, here’s a partial list of the people who often appear on their show:

Gordon Lee Baum, Esq., Peter Brimelow, Filip DeWinter, Dr. David Duke, Paul Fromm, Peter Gemma, Joel LeFevre, Dr. Wayne Lutton, Dr. Kevin MacDonald, Michael Peroutka, Rev. Ted Pike, Larry Pratt, Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, Kyle Rogers, Dr. Tomislav Sunic, Jared Taylor and Frosty Wooldridge.

I don't have any idea if Jared Taylor is personally a White Supremacist or not, but I will say that he wrote a pretty interesting book called Paved With Good Intentions about misguided Affirmative Action policies. Whether or not it was motivated by some measure of racism I couldn't say, as it read fairly clinically and didn't seem to reveal any racist undertones...

As for Peter Brimelow, again I couldn't say whether he personally exhibits White Supremacist attitudes -- but he has written a couple interesting books from a Conservative standpoint, criticizing the influence of labor unions and the dangers of illegal immigration.

As for what these guys really believe on a deeper level, I don't have that knowledge.

203 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:04:52pm

re: #165 LanceKates

re: #158 Highrise

where it gets sticky is when they put in their support on our statements.

I mean, if you have a good program, and the neonazi scum toss in their support... does it negate the good program?

Robert Spencer identified and spoke about this when he condemned those groups, but praised the idea of fighting the islamification of Europe, which I think every non-troll/moby/etc can agree on.

Shouldn't "neonazi scum" be ostracized by society so that they can't hitch a ride on the "good program"? Talk about giving cover ("legitimacy and publicity" as someone above said)... no helping them.

204 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:05:03pm

re: #195 debutaunt

It works every time, I've never had that trick flop on me. I've never had anyone get angry over it. They're just too embarrassed to do anything but flee or try to cover up.

205 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:06:30pm

re: #189 avirus

are you calling me European?

nope. It was mainly the europeans that were not happy with the light shown on their parties that have dubious members and platforms. But there were some others mixed in that were not europeans. Sorry I was not clear.


I'm Israeli and just don't want that some Nazi party be discussed in such forums over and over again day by day as if they have a legitimate view point, they are crazy F@#%s that all

The more we discuss it, the more these people look bad and I hope it deters their influence in influential parties that get into power. I would hope israelis and jews would be more than happy this is coming to light now, instead of later. If we don't expose this, it will grow and god help us literally then.

206 Wishbone  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:07:29pm

re: #157 BabbaZee

What I knew about European politics a week ago was zero.

Doesn't it just make you want a mental enema, with a heavy dose of bleach to disinfect your intellect after just one week of it?

European Politics: A game played with internationally serious consequences, by a bunch of complete fucking idiots.

I'd vote for the Banana Splits before most of that lot.

207 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:07:30pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout
#204 Killgore Trout 10/31/07 3:05:03 pm reply quote report 0

re: #195 debutaunt

It works every time, I've never had that trick flop on me. I've never had anyone get angry over it. They're just too embarrassed to do anything but flee or try to cover up.


I can imagine goading them on about it and then slipping in some asides about how your mom is just like they describe.

208 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:07:38pm

re: #184 albusteve

Yeah, I did. And I have a year and a half of reading EC's posts to know otherwise. To insinuate EC's "one of them" is offensive to those who know better.

209 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:07:51pm

I have the lowest regard for these groups but I appreciate their candor. They really do belong in the political cesspool.

They are subintellectual scum floating with their brother and sister turds. Irredeemable, criminal. malign and not contributing anything to the world other than the opportunity to bring devastation on any society stupid enough to follow down their path.

210 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:08:25pm

re: #202 StinkHammer

I don't have any idea if Jared Taylor is personally a White Supremacist or not, but I will say that he wrote a pretty interesting book called Paved With Good Intentions about misguided Affirmative Action policies. Whether or not it was motivated by some measure of racism I couldn't say, as it read fairly clinically and didn't seem to reveal any racist undertones...

As for Peter Brimelow, again I couldn't say whether he personally exhibits White Supremacist attitudes -- but he has written a couple interesting books from a Conservative standpoint, criticizing the influence of labor unions and the dangers of illegal immigration.

As for what these guys really believe on a deeper level, I don't have that knowledge.

This is one HELL of a rock we've kicked over here. Even so, it is the left and the Paulistinians who have more to fear from association with these uniformly anti-war racists than we do.

211 Lizard by the Bay  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:09:04pm

re: #112 Pro-Bush Canuck

There are arguably some teachings in the Old Testament that could be perceived as evil by today's standards.

But just how many Christians of today practice those beliefs? 2%? Less? Now compare that to the percentage of Muslims who live their life by Muhammad's piss-poor example. Those numbers are in the 70+ percentiles.

Religions are flexible things.

Go tell it to the mullahs.

I've met many Muslims. The vast majority don't seem crazy or violent. I know there is a lot of latent misinformation etc. within Islam, however at the end of the day it will do no good for us to label a major world religion as "evil"

Don't make the mistake of assuming that most of the world's Muslims are like the ones you've met in Canada, or the US for that matter. In any Muslim nation, most of the "good Muslims" you know would be apostates. And forget the "misinformation" garbage. Liberals tell us over and over that all it takes to appreciate something foreign is to "understand it". If that's the case then why is it that the more I learn about Islam, the worse it seems? The reason is simple: There is little that is redeemable in Islam. It is at its core an anti-human philosophy. Perhaps labeling Islam as "evil" might very well be counter-productive, but whitewashing it is even worse.

212 StinkHammer  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:09:59pm

re: #175 Malatrope

Paul Craig Roberts used to essay quite freqently for Newsmax, and his association here makes me wonder why he stopped.

He was also a biggie over at Reason magazine, the libertarian publication, if I recall correctly. I was never aware of his anti-Semitic tendencies, if he has indeed exhibited them...

213 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:11:20pm

re: #170 LanceKates

This wasn't directed at attitudes, this was him spewing shit belittling non-whites.

There was a black man standing in an alley behind my workplace, dismantling a crate to use a lumber to build a fence. Probably the guy was poor and couldn't afford lumber. My co-workers comment: "Oh, they're all like that you know. Cheap." I wanted to punch a hole through his face.

Here in Sweden though, we have tricky employment rules. In your first six months of employment, you have very little job security, and I've only been there for less than two. After that trial period, it becomes very, very hard to fire someone. That guy, by comparison, has worked there for four years. So if me and him were to butt heads right now, it'd probably be my ass on the street. As much as the situation infuriates me, I can't afford to be unemployed right now, and I love my job.

I have to call him on it eventually, but I can't do it now.

//Needs another whisky.

214 irish rose  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:11:20pm

re: #129 debutaunt

#117 NY Nana 10/31/07 2:28:30 pm reply quote report 0

re: #81 Ward Cleaver

If you look at Atlas's blog, as I made the mistake of doing, you will see she is still at it, digging herself deeper and deeper into the cesspool...she cannot even entertain the concept that she ever could be wrong. She is now at a level deep enough to require a diving suit.

Sad, and blind, at the same time.

Charles does not have to prove himself on this at all. He already has, almost a week ago, with his first thread on the subject.

I'm impressed with the way he continues to search and dig into the steaming pile. It's a continuing discovery of what reality actually is - a noble endeavor.
re: #117 NY Nana

I agree with all that has been stated here.

Charles, I thank you for staying the course on this, even though it must be breaking your heart.

I still agree with you, 100 percent.
The fight is far too important to compromise.

Racism and anti-semitism are two very real evils that infect the far-right, both here in the US and abroad. They are all to frequently inflicted upon others by those who claim to be conservatives and people of faith.

No, to this... no, no, no!

This kind of thinking is a disease that must be purged from the counter-jihad movement, or it will drag the entire movement down into the sewer... and all of Western civilization along with it.

Pamela... for Gods' sake, wake up woman.

215 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:11:47pm

re: #7 Pro-Bush Canuck

We also have to be careful not to indulge in hatred directed at all Muslims. Regardless of the problems we have with Islam as an ideology, lumping 1.2 billion people together and calling them evil is little better than what the KKK says about blacks.

thank you. VB is a racist neofascist hate party, which supports every neofascist and neonazi group like NPD, DVU, Republikaner, pro-Koeln, pro NRW, pro-Munich etc. in Germany and Austria and also all over Europe (especially in eastern Europe) to build a network of racist neofascist hate parties all over the western world.

The argument by Pamela and Fjordman Filip deWinters cant be a fascist because his father was a resistance fighter is the most inane argument I've ever heard. Since when is fascism a hereditary disease? One of Austrians most prominent neofascist, Peter Westenthaler, was born in a antifascist family and his grandfather repudiate him. A lot of German neonazis are from antifascist families. deWinter was a neofascist from his school time on an this was in the sixties. No Muslims there in Belgium at this time. He is a hatemongerer with best ties to every neonazi und(neo)fascist in the world.

The next argument by Pamela and Fjordman deWinter cant be a fascist otherwise he wouldn't invite Jews is pure nonsense. Mussolini had Jews in high ranking positions in his movement during the first years. One of his mistresses was a Jew. Moreover: this is a brilliant move to find entrance in supporting groups which otherwise would fight them with claws.

And the last argument that deWinter cant be a fascist because he was interviewed by Ha'aretz and Jewish Week is senseless. Israel Shamir alias Joern Jermas even wrote for Ha'aretz, Guardian and other well known newspapers. Does this mean his antisemitic hate speech is acceptable because he wrote for Ha'aretz? Ever heard of obfuscation?

All members of VB have close ties to White Power and White Supremacist Groups as well as neonazi groups all over the world. To align with VB means you are part of these groups and Paul Belien is only a front man for useful idiots.

216 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:12:01pm

re: #206 Wishbone

Shalom my friend!

LOL! YES!
I shouldn't have said zero though, I did have a run in with the BNP back in May on my own blog, and from that already knew about them, but not deeply to the degree that I do now.

I wish I had time to post right now,
all the interesting stuff always comes up when I have to do dinner...

Damn east coast.

217 Lynn B.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:12:08pm

Answer to second exit poll question: because they've backed themselves into a corner, I suspect.

I'm surprised Ron Paul isn't on that list. He's quite cosy with these people, having been a regular contributor to American Free Press (which is another of Willis Carto's projects, along with Liberty Lobby and the Institute for Historical Review).

218 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:13:56pm

re: #193 NY Nana


fjordman has lost total utter credibility in my eyes. I meant it when I said this to him based on his writings here the past 4 or so days.

I don't believe in coincidences when he and atlas showed up on that thread...

219 Roger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:13:58pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

Not every time.

220 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:15:16pm

re: #217 Lynn B.

You are not so far off, the whole Ron Paul thing connects to the same bunch of people too.

it's like playing six degrees of Vlaams Belang.

/Gee I hope he's REALLY LATE getting home tonight
lol

221 Render  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:16:02pm

I have reccommended this book here at least once before. I will happily do so again, and again...

"Denying the Holocaust" by Deborah Lipstadt 1993 FreePress.

Many of DeWinter's mentors, friends, and political allies are named in that book.

[Link: lipstadt.blogspot.com...]

TRUTH
AND
MEMORY,
R

222 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:16:22pm

re: #215 zuckerlilly

BUSSI

223 Kagehitokiri  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:16:30pm

ron paul seems like an anarchist to me...

hes popular with them, as well as big L Libertarians who dont want to see/hear the truth.

224 Alouette  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:17:10pm

re: #76 yochanan

frankly jews living in euroland should get out as soon as possible

euro history is full of blood being spilled and almost all the times jews were spilling theirs even if we were not part of the problem.

As if the Kadima gangsters who run Israel aren't craxy enough, Sheetrit wants to keep Jews out of Israel.

225 ContraJihadi  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:17:23pm

I wish I could understand why Pamela Geller, who surely has not a single Nazi bone in her body, is convinced that VB is free of the racist taint, and why she refuses seriously to consider, rebut if possible, the evidence Charles has presented. She claims VB is acceptable because Bat Ye'or has associated with them. Bat Ye'or is a fine person, but why cannot Pamela consider that here she has made a mistake. How could Pamela know without scrupulously examining VB's statements and actions?

My guess is that once she became emotionally attached to the notion that VB is a worthy ally in the fight against jihad, appeals to reason ceased to have any effect.

At least she has apologized for her outburst, and Baron Bodissey remains friendly, but some of the comments on both sites have been very nasty.

'Tis very sad. The chill between LGF and Atlas/Gates of Vienna, this unpleasantness between bloggers who are not themselves fascist at all, can only harm the campaign against jihad.

226 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:18:00pm

re: #219 Roger

:)
Yes, I've used that trick here before too. Mom says "Hi".

227 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:18:57pm
I happen to believe it’s also morally wrong.

As do I...standing with hate...because they see the danger of Islam...is blindness in the first degree.

228 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:20:37pm

re: #216 BabbaZee

The problem with the SD, which I have discovered over these past few days, is that information about them is mainly confined to swedish sources. What can be dug up on them in english is scarce at best. That's the main reason why I did that expo translation, simply to provide LGF with information that wasn't available in english. And expo is the organisation that has the biggest amount of info in one place, neatly summarized.

I could probably dig up quite a lot if I get a few days to research, but the problem is I would probably have to translate everything, and that takes a murderous amount of time.

229 Lauraf  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:20:45pm

re: #145 J.S.

I see parallels between extremist/radical Islam and the White Power groups. Each have "rabble rousers", "leaders" who make appeals to their "base" (the "base" typically is powerless, marginalized, uneducated, feels itself "threatened" or "under attack"). (One of the comments I left out yesterday was when one of the Cesspool interviewers spoke of a "genocide against the south"). The ideologue leaders always paint a rosy picture of some "idyllic, mythic past" -- before "the troubles" arrived. They also build up the "base" by claiming that the base is "superior" (in terms of religion/race/intelligence, etc.) But, then, of course, there's the obvious contradiction -- if "the base" is so obviously "superior", what then accounts for their inferior status? This is when the ideologues will develop a conspiracy theory to account or "explain" why "the base" is being "held back." So you get the secret cabals of nefarious types plotting against the rising up of "the base." And while painting the base as "angelic" (Manichean split occurs), you develop a scape-goat which epitomizes all "evil." All hatred, hostility, pent-up frustrations, etc., is directed against the scape-goat. Thus we get the inevitable spasms of violence. (this is the briefest of sketches -- but I think primarily -- fascistic thinking is grounded in these non-existent fantasy worlds -- very little is to be found "in reality." From the all-encompassing sweeping generalizations about "the good guys'" and the "bad guys" to the idealized past -- it's a mythic fantasy-land. I think most "realists" can spot it and know when to draw the line. (But there are others who'll kept swept up in this -- they're the problem).

They are also the only two groups who print, sell and believe "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and think that Jooos are the root cause of all the world's problems.

230 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:20:47pm

Like Progressives use that as a code word for commie

here is a short list of the codewords I have found being used world wide for white power scumbag:

Sovereignty clubs or parties
Nationalist clubs or parties
White Nationalist clubs or parties
Paleoconservative
Paleolibertarian
The "New Right"
Populist movements
Christian Identity movements
[insert name of country here] First! parties

and dig this one

Homogeneous Ethnic Communities

231 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:21:09pm

re: #189 avirus

re: #147 Highrise

re: #139 avirus


i didn't say to just ignore them i said denounce them and don't debate it forthere as it gives them legitimacy and publicity
But debating it here didn't end up giving it legitimacy at all, it exposed it. If anything it has shown more people what happened. Fewer people are standing up for that group. I can only hope the europeans will look into it more even if their pride is hurt on LGF to post as such.
are you calling me European? I'm Israeli and just don't want that some Nazi party be discussed in such forums over and over again day by day as if they have a legitimate view point, they are crazy F@#%s that all

Well, avirus, you know that and I have learned that over the past few years... but I can tell you that most Americans have NO CLUE about this stuff. Jewish people who have gone "on holiday" to Germany over the past couple of decades that I've known them come back just beaming with how nice the Germans are and how sorry for what happened to their families and isn't it great that there isn't anti-semitism anymore. But I knew better even before that because I lived in Germany and heard the talk. So... Charles has lots of other threads, but this enlightening of this self selected group (incl. many Americans) has to be done so the whole enterprise doesn't slide into some dark place. Israel needs Americans to know what goes on in the more intellectually nuanced parts of the world.

232 nyc redneck  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:21:53pm

re: #108 Render

Down in the older threads on the subject, those who remain, are no longer bothering to deny the neo-nazi implications. They're reduced to arguing that the neo-nazi's are their only hope.

REVERSE
ORDER,
R

they are desperate and delusional and will learn the hard way.

233 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:22:12pm

re: #228 Truumax
Yes I can clearly see that!
Which is why I am still in research phase as of tonight, and havent even started writing on the VB yet.

234 Kagehitokiri  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:23:14pm

IMHO i see no reason to talk about dewinter as a "nazi" or "antisemitic" because he is CLEARLY a racist. i dont really care what else he is. thats enough for me to know.

235 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:23:25pm

re: #225 ContraJihadi


'Tis very sad. The chill between LGF and Atlas/Gates of Vienna, this unpleasantness between bloggers who are not themselves fascist at all, can only harm the campaign against jihad.

Actually I disagree with the harm part.

Shining a light on what atlas and gates of vienna are supporting is crucial to the fight against jihad. If it can't be done with clean hands, we get the other set of hands that are just as tainted by history. Hopefully atlas and gates of vienna will come around. Charles is just being himself, bless him.

236 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:23:32pm

re: #210 Shiplord Kirel

re: #202 StinkHammer


I don't have any idea if Jared Taylor is personally a White Supremacist or not, but I will say that he wrote a pretty interesting book called Paved With Good Intentions about misguided Affirmative Action policies. Whether or not it was motivated by some measure of racism I couldn't say, as it read fairly clinically and didn't seem to reveal any racist undertones...
As for Peter Brimelow, again I couldn't say whether he personally exhibits White Supremacist attitudes -- but he has written a couple interesting books from a Conservative standpoint, criticizing the influence of labor unions and the dangers of illegal immigration.

As for what these guys really believe on a deeper level, I don't have that knowledge.


This is one HELL of a rock we've kicked over here. Even so, it is the left and the Paulistinians who have more to fear from association with these uniformly anti-war racists than we do.

Man, you ain't kidding. One HELL of a rock. And the bugs just keep coming.

237 EtNorskTroll[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:25:06pm
238 arne97  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:26:28pm

David Duke's website is a blessing to lizards.

From the anti-semitic blathering at Teheran's holocaust denial confab, to his love-fests in Syria, one is struck by the blatant idiocy of this moron from the heartland.

Plug "Syria" into his search feature and see what you get.

I employ him frequently to silence the leftist anti-Semites in places like :

[Link: newcafe.org...]

Bless "Doctor" Duke ( as in "Dr. Goebbels" :)

239 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:26:31pm
240 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:26:32pm

re: #198 Promethea

That someone who learned blogging from Charles uses her blog as an attack site? It is one thing to disagree, and quite another to just pick a fight on a subject where she is so very wrong, and still keeps it up today.

I am not holding my breath waiting for Atlas, Fjordman and the Gates of Vienns to be honorable enough to come over here and issue sincere aplogies.

Atlas let banned LGF posters to comment on her highly pre-approved comments with comments that Charles would never allow here if they were posted here. No comment goes up at her blog until she approves it. They were just hateful, and she loved every one of them, as if they proved her to be right.

IMHO, she has lost the most important thing a person has..integrity. Charles has an over-supply of it. My Dad zt"l taught me something that has stayed with me all my life: 'A man is only as good as his word'.

241 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:26:32pm

He's home.

Later!

242 J.S.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:28:06pm

re: #7 Pro-Bush Canuck

I agree with you. Another thing about living in fantasy worlds -- claiming angelic status for one group while demonizing another -- the required mental state is one of denial (blinkered -- you'd have to tell yourself --"there are no good Muslims!" and willfully ignore every counter example), while seeing / yet ignoring all flaws in the "favored" group...that involves making excuses, coming up with lies and distortions. I think this is what Pamela is doing -- she's not addressing Charles' actual arguments. She's attacking her imaginary straw man she's created. It's all grounded in her fantasies -- not reality.

243 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:28:09pm

re: #135 meMarc

re: #106 Ward Cleaver


re: #98 meMarc
There seems to be an audio archive at The Politcal Cesspool but I can't get it to work. Wanted to see what Pat Buchanan had to say.
Whenever I hear somebody like Hannity invite Buchanan on as a guest, I just want to slam my head against a wall. NOOO!

Hannity can be such a stooge, at least on his radio show. His "You're a great American" greeting is bodering on Hare Kkrishna-ism. Another guest they had on the cesspool was Kirkpatric Sale. When was the last time you heard of him? I thought the internet would have done the neo-Luddite in.

I haven't listened to Hannity in ages. I'm usually listening to Hugh Hewitt at that time.

244 mean Gene  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:28:14pm

Thanks for wearing the hip boots in my behalf, Charles.
I don't feel any need to "go there."
I have already come to the same conclusion as you, although for some ever-so-slightly-different reasons.
It seems we have to nail the coffin shut to convince some.
So sad.
I think, with this post, you have really done that.
Anyone choosing to associate with VB after this is not fooling anyone as to his ultimate goal and mine not being in line with one anothers.

245 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:28:44pm
246 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:28:58pm

re: #241 BabbaZee

He's home.

Later!

Who's home?

247 Orde  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:29:04pm

re: #37 Charles

re: #16 meMarc

"Political Cesspool" has had some interesting guest including Pat Buchanan, and Gary Pucket of the Union Gap.

Gary Puckett also wrote the extremely creepy "Young Girl," a paean to pedophilia.

And Pat Buchanan's got many ugly ties, remember Larry Pratt.

248 Roger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:29:55pm

re: #226 Killgore Trout

But it didn't work when you tried to use it on me. Keep it real.

249 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:30:02pm

Another one?...what a shock

..."I'm not gonna lose everything I've worked for, for 30 years, because some f--- n--- heard us say n--- and turned us into the Enquirer magazine." The related link to the National Enquirer exclusive report details the context of the conversation between Dwayne "Dog" Chapman and his son.

[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]

250 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:30:15pm
251 J.S.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:30:23pm

re: #229 Lauraf

Exactly. They both have chosen the same scape goat.

252 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:30:44pm
253 ContraJihadi  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:31:24pm

re: #235 Highrise

re: #225 ContraJihadi


'Tis very sad. The chill between LGF and Atlas/Gates of Vienna, this unpleasantness between bloggers who are not themselves fascist at all, can only harm the campaign against jihad.

Actually I disagree with the harm part.

Shining a light on what atlas and gates of vienna are supporting is crucial to the fight against jihad. If it can't be done with clean hands, we get the other set of hands that are just as tainted by history. Hopefully atlas and gates of vienna will come around. Charles is just being himself, bless him.

I stand corrected. I meant that it is sad that Pamela and the Baron can't seem to accept even the possibility that VB and SD are racist and thus unworthy of alliance. Like you I hope that they will come around so that we can all carry on the work that needs to be done.

This business of denigrating Charles for "moral purity" is the same kind of ruse CAIR uses to fend off criticism.

254 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:31:38pm

re: #245 ploome hineni

when does Europe blow?

Not too long. I think they'll have civil wars breaking out in the next couple of years; leftists versus right-wingers like the VBers. All this even before we get to the islamists.

It ain't gonna be pretty. It'll make 1930s Europe look like a cocktail party.

255 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:31:41pm
256 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:31:44pm

re: #222 BabbaZee

re: #215 zuckerlilly

BUSSI


{Bussi}

257 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:31:45pm

re: #240 NY Nana

'A man is only as good as his word'.He was very wise.

258 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:32:00pm

re: #252 ploome hineni

re: #246 Ward Cleaver

Mr Babba

Oh.

259 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:32:00pm
260 StinkHammer  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:32:14pm

re: #243 Ward Cleaver

Hannity can be such a stooge, at least on his radio show. His "You're a great American" greeting is bodering on Hare Kkrishna-ism. Another guest they had on the cesspool was Kirkpatric Sale. When was the last time you heard of him? I thought the internet would have done the neo-Luddite in.

I haven't listened to Hannity in ages. I'm usually listening to Hugh Hewitt at that time.

I concur. Hannity is a lightweight -- no valuable insights or arguments, just sheer boilerplate rhetoric. I gave up listening to him quite some time ago. There are plenty smarter, more informative and engaging radio hosts around the country (quite often just locals) -- Hewitt being one of them.

261 neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:32:25pm

re: #212 StinkHammer

Check out the following links regarding Paul Craig Roberts:

Will Neocon Fanaticism Destroy America?

Wikipedia article on the anti-Israel Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (contributors section): Washington Report on Middle East Affairs

IHR (holocaust denial site) Jan 2007 Roundup

Israel's Criminal Accomplice

The Peculiar Relationship - "No American President Can Stand Up to Israel"

262 jcm  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:32:41pm

Late to this thread.

Good work Charles.

It is as simple as this.

In the fight for individual liberty. It is not possible to deny another individual liberty for any reason, save proven criminality. Our own history of the last 250 years show this.

263 Dianna  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:34:12pm

re: #237 EtNorskTroll

I don't care if you think you're being funny. That's ugly.

264 M. Bensson-Levi  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:35:23pm

Charles,

Pardon my presumption, you certainly don't need my approval, nor anyone else's, since you have the confidence assuring quality of being right, but...

YOU SURE DONE GOOD! Probably because you ARE good.

Your instincts were correct, you did not waiver nor take a single step back when attacked by those who had been friends, and your efforts have borne fruit. Your integrity is not only intact, but enhanced.

Fact is, as Joe Lieberman found out, YA SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEVIL, HE DON'T NEVER LET GO.

Some you know have done so. Too bad.

265 Orde  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:35:46pm

re: #7 Pro-Bush Canuck

We also have to be careful not to indulge in hatred directed at all Muslims. Regardless of the problems we have with Islam as an ideology, lumping 1.2 billion people together and calling them evil is little better than what the KKK says about blacks.

Thanks from me too, for this comment. Each of the very many Muslims I know (except Muslims converts) is just warm, gracious and very, very reasonable. There's this perception that Muslims are mindless and irrational, but though they have been indoctrinated, I find them very open to informed discussion.

266 avirus  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:37:54pm

re: #231 Sunlight

re: #189 avirus

re: #147 Highrise

re: #139 avirus


i didn't say to just ignore them i said denounce them and don't debate it forthere as it gives them legitimacy and publicity

But debating it here didn't end up giving it legitimacy at all, it exposed it. If anything it has shown more people what happened. Fewer people are standing up for that group. I can only hope the europeans will look into it more even if their pride is hurt on LGF to post as such.

are you calling me European? I'm Israeli and just don't want that some Nazi party be discussed in such forums over and over again day by day as if they have a legitimate view point, they are crazy F@#%s that all

Well, avirus, you know that and I have learned that over the past few years... but I can tell you that most Americans have NO CLUE about this stuff. Jewish people who have gone "on holiday" to Germany over the past couple of decades that I've known them come back just beaming with how nice the Germans are and how sorry for what happened to their families and isn't it great that there isn't anti-semitism anymore. But I knew better even before that because I lived in Germany and heard the talk. So... Charles has lots of other threads, but this enlightening of this self selected group (incl. many Americans) has to be done so the whole enterprise doesn't slide into some dark place. Israel needs Americans to know what goes on in the more intellectually nuanced parts of the world.

I just hope that Charles will win this battle... and won't just drive the people to his right to the hands of the neo Nazis

267 StinkHammer  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:38:21pm

re: #261 neocon

Check out the following links regarding Paul Craig Roberts:

Will Neocon Fanaticism Destroy America? . . . etc. etc.

Thanks for the links. Based on the contents of those articles, Roberts and I would part company, intellectually, with regard to Israel. But any anti-Semitism he exhibits doesn't negate where he and I would agree on economic matters.

268 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:38:56pm

Adonai protect us...The Fascists are on the rise again..

269 Shelbourne  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:39:06pm

Reading these posts regarding the VB here over the past few days have made me realise a lot of things. Being from Europe and also knowing several people with ties to the VB and combining their opinions with what I read over here, underlined for me again, that Europe has jumped on a train that is in a direct collission with the equivalent of several brick walls.

1. Most of the leading anti-jihad political parties show clear similarities with the white power movement.
The VB (Belgium), Le Front National (France), the NPD (Germany) and even Geert Wilders in the Netherlands. They see mass deportation as the only sollution for the severe issues that we are facing here.

2. There are no conservative right-wing parties to fill the vacuum. I take Holland as an example because it is one of the countries that is hit the hardest by the islamofacists. When I only focus on the right side of the political spectrum, there would be currently 4 parties:
CDA (Christian Democrats) - do not dare to oppose the islamofacists because that would damage the rights of their Christian voters;
VVD (Conservative Liberals) - have just alienated the whole right wing of their party by expelling Rita Verdonk;
PVV (Conservative Nationalists) - in their aim to grow to a national party they no longer see any nuances, and their solution for all issues caused by foreigners seems to be mass deportation - their economical solutions are weak at best;
TOP (Conservative Nationalists) - the new party from Rita Verdonk. There is no clear program yet, but again, mass deportation seems to be an acceptable solution.

In other countries, the situation is worse! People seem to think Mrs. Merckel will take a hard stance on Islamic themes... sorry, she won't, for the same reason as I mentioned for the CDA above (her party is called the CDU btw). Sarkozy... sorry... he talks tough but he is not taking much action. Britain has the Tories, who would sell their mothers to get back into government. All in all, not a nice picture.

3. I also notice clearly, that the state that Europe is in, seems to be much worse than the USA. What you don't see in the papers (or online) is that the burning of vehicles in Amsterdam is still continuing. Even the left wing mayor (Cohen) admitted today that the problem with Moroccon youths is severe. For a man that is known in the Netherlands for his unlimited attempts to solve these issues with large amounts of tea, this means a lot.
So far, the USA has had no riots like we seen in France and Belgium over the past few years.

4. There is hardly any understanding of the amount of anti-american sentiments that have flooded Europe over the past few years. Ask a European that has not been to the States what he thinks about Americans, and the first word you will hear is "arrogant" .

I think (and I stated this before) that Charles is right to expose these sentiments for what they are. The struggle of the anti-jihadi's in Europe is difficult enough, and will only become more and more difficult when it can be linked to anti-semitism, racism or white supremacy.
However, I also think that it is extremely important, that the big names of this movement (Spencer, Pipes, Charles etc.) sort this issue out among each other a.s.a.p. and come up with one clear statement.

I also hope that you don't judge Europe too harshly. There are plenty of people still out there, ready to take responsibility for the struggle to maintain our common values and liberties.

270 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:39:27pm

re: #266 avirus
People are not driven..by talk alone...you can not have a good heart...and hate like a Nazi!

271 PETN Sandwich  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:40:48pm

VB...


PC...


VDARE...


MM...


Flemish nationalist - democrat (socialist) white supremacism to LBJL in 4 easy clicks.
Amazing what links one can make with the intertube thingy.

272 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:41:07pm

I have been completely overwhelmed by the events of the past week or so. The revelations have been stunning to say the least. The one good thing to come of this is that it has given us an opportunity to really show, in no uncertain terms, exactly where and with whom we stand in this fight. Small consolation for losing what seemed like such staunch allies, but as painful as it is, it's better to find out the truth sooner than later. If we think have to ally ourselves with nazis to win this war, it's a pretty good bet that whatever we think we're fighting for is already lost. Charles, I really don't know how you do it, but I can't think of praise high enough for the way you've handled this. :)

273 pingjockey  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:42:26pm

After seeing this garbage all I can say is "Mental Midgets of the World Unite!" These people are the very definition of moron. It never ceases to amaze me how much hate can be contained in the species homo sapien.

274 storagemanager  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:42:28pm
War drums are beating ever more loudly for northern Iraq, as Turkey escalates its martial tone, implicating top Iraqi Kurdish officials as cooperating with the Kurd rebels it is trying to crush.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan explicitly accused the president of Iraq's autonomous Kurdistan government, Massud Barzani, and his followers of "harboring a terrorist organization," in reference to the Turkish Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK). He made his remarks late Tuesday during a reception for Turkey's national day

[Link: www.metimes.com...]

275 Orde  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:43:47pm

re: #111 neocon

(psst, neocon, you might get a lesson about 6th day mud people versus 8th dayers)

276 neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:44:05pm

re: #267 StinkHammer

Right -- even a broken clock is right twice a day. PCR's views on economics may be valid, but it's pretty clear he's got a Jewish Israel problem.

277 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:44:43pm

Kilgore -- took some digging since they killed the links from the main page, but here is where it is. I saved a local copy. Check page 12, and the very last page, where you see an ad for an NSV rally.

Interestingly enough, they have a new "Diversity Charter" up on the Vlaams Belang Jongeren main page now. I think they are either trying hard to change, or trying hard to hide the dirt.

Also note this site with an interesting side bar banner link to VMO, another radical student militia.

Interesting how someone who was pro-VB the other night tried to convince me they weren't uniformed militia, just "activists"

278 joshlbetts  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:44:56pm

I couldn't agree more with Charles.

Why defend the indefensible? To save face from embarrassment?

I think some people were suckered in and didn't do their due diligence.

279 Roger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:46:12pm

re: #83 BabbaZee

I was shocked to learn about the rape of a 52 year old lady.

Then pieced it together from the context of the sentences;

Sounds like they had an accident with the campaign bus and she got knocked down. Don't know what a bike venue is in relation to a bus

violentée got translated as rape

Still a good find but bloody difficult to read; tower of babel and all.

280 bulwrk  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:48:14pm

History Of The Jack-O'Lantern
Pumpkin carving is a popular part of modern America's Halloween celebration. Come October, pumpkins can be found everywhere in the country from doorsteps to dinner tables. Despite the widespread carving that goes on in this country every autumn, few Americans really know why or when the jack o'lantern tradition began. Or, for that matter, whether the pumpkin is a fruit or a vegetable. Read on to find out!

People have been making jack o'lanterns at Halloween for centuries. The practice originated from an Irish myth about a man nicknamed "Stingy Jack." According to the story, Stingy Jack invited the Devil to have a drink with him. True to his name, Stingy Jack didn't want to pay for his drink, so he convinced the Devil to turn himself into a coin that Jack could use to buy their drinks. Once the Devil did so, Jack decided to keep the money and put it into his pocket next to a silver cross, which prevented the Devil from changing back into his original form. Jack eventually freed the Devil, under the condition that he would not bother Jack for one year and that, should Jack die, he would not claim his soul. The next year, Jack again tricked the Devil into climbing into a tree to pick a piece of fruit. While he was up in the tree, Jack carved a sign of the cross into the tree's bark so that the Devil could not come down until the Devil promised Jack not to bother him for ten more years.

Soon after, Jack died. As the legend goes, God would not allow such an unsavory figure into heaven. The Devil, upset by the trick Jack had played on him and keeping his word not to claim his soul, would not allow Jack into hell. He sent Jack off into the dark night with only a burning coal to light his way. Jack put the coal into a carved-out turnip and has been roaming the Earth with ever since. The Irish began to refer to this ghostly figure as "Jack of the Lantern," and then, simply "Jack O'Lantern."

In Ireland and Scotland, people began to make their own versions of Jack's lanterns by carving scary faces into turnips or potatoes and placing them into windows or near doors to frighten away Stingy Jack and other wandering evil spirits. In England, large beets are used. Immigrants from these countries brought the jack o'lantern tradition with them when they came to the United States. They soon found that pumpkins, a fruit native to America, make perfect jack o'lanterns.

281 Ojoe  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:49:18pm

Charles you are preforming a great service shining light here with your blog.

282 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:49:24pm

re: #262 jcm

Late to this thread.

Good work Charles.

It is as simple as this.

In the fight for individual liberty. It is not possible to deny another individual liberty for any reason, save proven criminality. Our own history of the last 250 years show this.

And rule of law. We elect the representatives, they make the laws based on behavior the citizens find acceptable (and unacceptable, e.g. incitement, assault, etc.), we enforce the laws. Doesn't have to be race, religion, etc. Behavior-based.

283 Doug  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:50:42pm

Where's Peppy LePeu, AKA, Pierre Legrand, the offspring of collaborators and traitors?

Hey Pierre, before you track my IP address down through my posting and then come and try to kill me, you might want to know that Ron Paul is calling you! He's got an important job waiting.

284 Orde  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:51:19pm

re: #229 Lauraf

They are also the only two groups who print, sell and believe "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and think that Jooos are the root cause of all the world's problems.

You can buy The Protocols without supporting Jew-haters by purchasing The Plot by Will Eisner, which has The Protocols in the back of the book, with the main part of the book being a graphic nonfiction novel (comic format) telling the history of The Protocols, how the fraud started, its run-ins in courts, travels around the globe, etc. Should be in every high school or young adult section of the public library.

285 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:51:30pm

re: #266 avirus

re: #231 Sunlight

re: #189 avirus
re: #147 Highrise
re: #139 avirus


i didn't say to just ignore them i said denounce them and don't debate it forthere as it gives them legitimacy and publicity
But debating it here didn't end up giving it legitimacy at all, it exposed it. If anything it has shown more people what happened. Fewer people are standing up for that group. I can only hope the europeans will look into it more even if their pride is hurt on LGF to post as such.
are you calling me European? I'm Israeli and just don't want that some Nazi party be discussed in such forums over and over again day by day as if they have a legitimate view point, they are crazy F@#%s that all
Well, avirus, you know that and I have learned that over the past few years... but I can tell you that most Americans have NO CLUE about this stuff. Jewish people who have gone "on holiday" to Germany over the past couple of decades that I've known them come back just beaming with how nice the Germans are and how sorry for what happened to their families and isn't it great that there isn't anti-semitism anymore. But I knew better even before that because I lived in Germany and heard the talk. So... Charles has lots of other threads, but this enlightening of this self selected group (incl. many Americans) has to be done so the whole enterprise doesn't slide into some dark place. Israel needs Americans to know what goes on in the more intellectually nuanced parts of the world.
I just hope that Charles will win this battle... and won't just drive the people to his right to the hands of the neo Nazis

No one will go there that isn't already into it. The people who really can't imagine this stuff going on will have their eyes opened. This is a good thing.

286 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:52:24pm

re: #277 Thanos

That rat is a nice find!
Any clue what the VMO symbol is?

287 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:53:06pm

Dang kids celebrate Halloween early anymore. I've already had trick or treaters and it's not even 6:00 PM. If my rants are more incoherent than usual tonight, it's because I'm wondering back to the front door to get rid of a mass of candy.

288 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:53:22pm

re: #268 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Adonai protect us...The Fascists are on the rise again..

Protect yourself. Proven better approach.

289 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:53:56pm

re: #279 Roger

violent%uFFFDe got translated as rape

I noticed that one too. I think they were going for "accosted" or "molested" and ended up with "rape"

290 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:54:21pm

I've been wildly unsuccessful posting today.

The lesson here is it pays to do your research, and to pay attention to what people say and think.

One thing I wanted to add to the discussion earlier is the observation that there is always a temptation to be moved from fear to paranoia, and from a reasoned response to an unreasonable response. Violent racism and the worship of totalitarian states are not necessarily the same thing, though they tend to coincide. At base, both are about the demand for an immediate solution to the "problem," choosing the simplest means: identify an enemy and eliminate him utterly. Victory in this sense is not an option, only the complete eradication of the enemy with fire and steel will do. Of course this sort of solution never solves the problem; it creates the illusion of success.

Fascist and Neo-Nazi groups succeed in two ways. They offer a "solution," usually one that because it's associated with "action" appears more capable of success than the "passive" solutions ordinary states provide. They are about action, leadership, charisma, etc., all very tempting (if ultimately illusory).

Secondly, like cults (to which they are related) they never give you the full story right up front, but wait until you are too deeply implicated to have the moral and psychological strength to back out. Part of the game is by encouraging a 'receding moral horizon,' the natural defence mechanism that allows us to believe our own actions are good, or well meaning, even if ultimately they help the cause of evil. Totalitarians and fascists encourage and enable this kind of rationalization. Secondly, they change the story -- a good fascist tells each fool the precise lie he or she needs to hear in order to join. Again, only later is it possible to learn the truth, but even then, the bulk of lies provide an easy (and emotionally satisfying way) of avoiding the obvious.

The best example of the phenomenon is Albert Speer. Spend some time with his biography sometime.

OK, off I must go -- 'tis trick or treat time.

291 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:56:55pm

Ward Churchill still teaching:

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Westboro Baptist Church loses $11M lawsuit. (They are the "Christian" "church" that protests at military funerals and blames everything on homosexuals.)

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

292 Rancher  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:56:56pm

re: #269 Shelbourne

I also hope that you don't judge Europe too harshly. There are plenty of people still out there, ready to take responsibility for the struggle to maintain our common values and liberties.

I also hope you don't you don't judge us too harshly, but for a few votes we would be you.

293 doriangrey  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:57:38pm

re: #266 avirus

Charles already won this battle the moment he said lets not jump to any conclusions, lets take a honest careful rational look at the facts...Or words to that affect.

294 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:57:46pm
295 profitsbeard  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:59:14pm

I see no need to ally with any existing political party or bloc.

This cause -fighting against the totalitarian Jihad and for the survival of human liberty and dignity- should be a sufficient.

Those who need smaller causes should look elsewhere.

296 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 3:59:23pm

re: #218 Highrise

I do not believe in 'coincidences' period.

Emails must have been flying back and forth. Probably still are.

And if they both showed up here, on this thread? I would not be the least bit surprised. :=(

Let's enjoy the levity while it lasts.

297 avirus  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:00:49pm

re: #285 Sunlight

"No one will go there that isn't already into it. The people who really can't imagine this stuff going on will have their eyes opened. This is a good thing."

again i hope you are all right
well its late and i have a class in the morning
Charles i really respect your moral stand
good night

298 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:00:57pm

#286 Killgore Trout 10/31/07 3:52:24 pm reply quote report 0

re: #277 Thanos

That rat is a nice find!
Any clue what the VMO symbol is?

The rat had a real 1930's feel, didn't it? Shudder!

re: #286 Killgore Trout

299 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:01:03pm

re: #296 NY Nana


HOpefully they'll realize that their pro audience has lessened. All this stuff has been pretty damning, but wow..that interview floored me.

300 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:01:13pm

re: #286 Killgore Trout

re: #277 Thanos

That rat is a nice find!
Any clue what the VMO symbol is?

No but their site in the link below it is very enlightening just from the pictures. Check the sidebar links, they have a lot of collaborators that they are trying to get pardoned.

301 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:02:27pm

re: #300 Thanos

re: #286 Killgore Trout


re: #277 Thanos

That rat is a nice find!
Any clue what the VMO symbol is?


No but their site in the link below it is very enlightening just from the pictures. Check the sidebar links, they have a lot of collaborators that they are trying to get pardoned.


The other part is I don't know the context -- maybe it's an article decrying crypto-neonazi writers, but I doubt it.

302 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:03:04pm

re: #294 buzzsawmonkey

Enlightening as always. I like those posts...

303 GeeWiz  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:03:09pm

I haven't read the entire thread but my feeling on this entire scenario is a quote that I will most likely screw up but believe in. "One is judged by the company he keeps".

304 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:03:20pm

re: #277 Thanos

Kilgore -- took some digging since they killed the links from the main page, but here is where it is. I saved a local copy. Check page 12, and the very last page, where you see an ad for an NSV rally.

Interestingly enough, they have a new "Diversity Charter" up on the Vlaams Belang Jongeren main page now. I think they are either trying hard to change, or trying hard to hide the dirt.

Also note this site with an interesting side bar banner link to VMO, another radical student militia.

Interesting how someone who was pro-VB the other night tried to convince me they weren't uniformed militia, just "activists"

Interesting. I'm curious to know what the text says that accompanies the rat illustration. It isn't a very sympathetic picture; I'm wondering if it's a repudiation of the White Pride symbol, in fact.

305 meMarc  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:04:38pm

OT (But is anything about Hillary over OT)

Bloggers File FEC Complaint Against Hillary Clinton
Posted by: Patrick Ruffini at 10:11 AM
Conservative bloggers Matt Margolis and Mark Noonan will file a formal complaint about Hillary Clinton's shady fundraising practices with the Federal Election Commission today.

On the heels of the Norman Hsu scandal, the Clinton campaign was rocked by questions of even more Hsu-like shakedowns in connection with a $380,000 fundraiser in New York which saw contributions ranging from $1,000 to $2,500 from cooks and dishwashers. At least one donor admitted to being an illegal immigrant. Another said she was illegally reimbursed for her contributions. Others said they felt pressured to give.

Unlike the Hsu cash, Hillary's campaign has yet to return the bulk of this tainted money.

This complaint brings these charges into a formal FEC process. The Clinton campaign will have 15 days to respond and publicly defend itself from charges of illegal campaign fundraising.

When lefty blogger Lane Hudson filed FEC complaints against Fred Thompson and Rudy Giuliani, the press couldn't get enough of the story. I expect Margolis and Noonan will get similar treatment.

This is really smart on Margolis and Noonan's part, who know the issue of Democrat corruption backwards and forwards as the authors of Caucus of Corruption. For about the time it would have taken to write a blog entry on this issue, they can demand real accountability from the Clinton campaign. I wish I'd thought of this.

306 Salamantis  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:04:45pm

Due to the MSM's unfortunate and regrettable Islamofascist-enabling slant, and their consequent willingness to both highlight any shameful connections between antijihadists and unsavory groups or individuals, and to conceal any seamy links between anti-GWOT types and their slimy, disgusting fellow-travelers, associating with such repulsive and repellant racist groups as the VB, the SD, and the BNP, be they foreign or domestic, can only do the cause of the antijihadists much more harm in the public perception than the association of anti-GWOT groups with such revolting folks as International ANSWER, for instance, does to them. We dare not allow ourselves to indulge in willful ignorance on there matters.

It is therefore exceedingly important that we keep the klieg lights brightly shining in these shaded basement corners, and refuse to allow such malevolent toadstools to feed, sprout and grow there, nourished by the false and accusatory bullshit being proferred by those willing to compromise their freedom-and-justice-for-all principles for the sake of transitory alliances with such execrable nimrods. We do not want to gift our adversaries with the propaganda ammunition they so desperately covet and crave; if given the barest minimum of even an appearance of justification, they will eagerly tar us all with their racist broad brush.

Charles' brave and steadfast battle to keep us free from such disgusting taints is thus a battle for the decency, dignity and integrity of all of us who are engaged in the good fight against theocratic and totalitarian foes. It is incumbent upon us all not only to applaud him, but to also assist him in the honorable and noble endeavor.

307 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:05:33pm

re: #303 GeeWiz

"One is judged by the company he keeps".

I have often found great wisdom in that quaint statement.

308 pat  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:05:36pm

Sorry if this is a repeat. I cannot read the whole thread.

Bat Ye'or at the Counter Jihad.

Good Speech. Sample

For the Arab and Muslim world, Palestinianism embodies the ideology and aims of jihad against a rebellious dhimmi people. Based on a Muslim culture, history and theology, it denies territorial independence and sovereignty to any non-Muslim people. Such a position is self-defeating for all non-Muslim states, and particularly Europe. Palestinianism is at the root of Europe’s self-destruction.
309 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:06:19pm
310 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:06:41pm

#304 Charles 10/31/07 4:03:20 pm reply quote report 0

re: #277 Thanos

Kilgore -- took some digging since they killed the links from the main page, but here is where it is. I saved a local copy. Check page 12, and the very last page, where you see an ad for an NSV rally.

Interestingly enough, they have a new "Diversity Charter" up on the Vlaams Belang Jongeren main page now. I think they are either trying hard to change, or trying hard to hide the dirt.

Also note this site with an interesting side bar banner link to VMO, another radical student militia.

Interesting how someone who was pro-VB the other night tried to convince me they weren't uniformed militia, just "activists"

Interesting. I'm curious to know what the text says that accompanies the rat illustration. It isn't a very sympathetic picture; I'm wondering if it's a repudiation of the White Pride symbol, in fact.

Really wish I could read some of that stuff. That rat looked like something out of 1930's German propaganda filth.
re: #304 Charles

311 pat  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:07:22pm
312 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:07:24pm

The article appears to be about a famous cartoonist, Marten Toonder.

313 Kenneth  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:07:44pm

re: #294 buzzsawmonkey

Very, very well said. Buzz, your wit is legendary on LGF. Now your wisdom is abundantly evident.

I have always valued the blog Atlas Shrugged, and continue to do so, but Pamela has made a mistake and will regret it one day. Her heart is in the right place, but her head has wandered off.

314 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:07:51pm

No Christmas for England

Santa to be sacrificed at the altar of multi-culturalism.

James Chapman of that other Daily Mail in England reported the Institute for Public Policy Research is recommending that Christmas be downgraded since, Chapman said, “Britain is no longer a Christian nation.”

315 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:08:15pm

re: #309 buzzsawmonkey

Add that as a chapter when I convince you to make a career change.

316 Barrypopik  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:08:19pm

The world is soft on terror. Look at Bali, Yemen (U.S.S. Cole attack). Now Madrid...No LGF story?

7 Are Acquitted in Madrid Bombings
By VICTORIA BURNETT
Published: November 1, 2007

MADRID, Oct. 31 — Spain’s National Court on Wednesday convicted three men on Wednesday of murdering 191 people and injuring more than 1,800 in the 2004 Madrid bombings , but acquitted four of the top suspects of murder charges.

Nor did the court find any of the three accused organizers guilty of direct involvement in the attacks, the most deadly carried out by Islamic radicals on European soil.

The acquittals of the focal suspects shocked many Spaniards.

317 Orde  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:09:07pm

re: #39 Ward Cleaver

re: #15 Fran Porretto

What is "white supremacism," as the commenters here understand it? I'm trying to get a feel for the most prevalent interpretation of that phrase.

It encompasses all kinds of crap, like the Christian Identity movement. They believe that the original inhabitants of the Holy Land were Aryans, and that the Jews went in and stole their land. That's one example.

Not exactly. Christian Identity has a few different strains, but that the "identity" of white Christians is that they, not the people living over in the Middle East, are the real Israel, the real Israelites. Most also believe that they, the white Christians, are descended from Adam who was created on the 8th day, while non-whites were created on the 6th day with the beasts, except for the "Jews" (to them not the real Jews, but "Kenites") who they say descended from sex between Eve and the Serpent.

318 jeppo[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:09:21pm
319 keelie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:10:05pm

These guys must be wetting themselves.

After all, Jews with guns and other weapons! Unheard of! They can kill right back!

No more walking into cattle cars.

320 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:10:34pm

Forgot the other link.

Christmas should be 'downgraded' to help race relations says Labour think tank

Christmas should be downgraded in favour of festivals from other religions to improve race relations, says an explosive report.

Labour's favourite think-tank says that because it would be hard to 'expunge' Christmas from the national calendar, 'even-handedness' means public organisations must start giving other religions equal footing.

The leaked findings of its investigation into identity, citizenship and community cohesion also propose:

%u2022 'Birth ceremonies', at which state and parents agree to 'work in partnership' to bring up children

%u2022 Action to 'ensure access' for ethnic minorities to 'largely white' countryside

%u2022 An overhaul of Britain's 'imperial' honours system

%u2022 Bishops being thrown out of the House of Lords

%u2022 An end to 'sectarian' religious education

%u2022 Flying flags other than the Union Jack.

321 GeeWiz  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:10:56pm

re: #307 goodbye_natalie

I may be way off base here, but I think it kinda gets to the heart of the matter in this firestorm. JMHO as usual, but what the hell do I know.

322 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:11:02pm

re: #294 buzzsawmonkey

Well said.

BTW, I've heard this debate -- "left or right anti-semitism; which scares me more" at every AIPAC event I've attended, a simply fact which should lay to rest the notion that this gigantic organization speaks with one "neo-conservative" voice. The Jewish community in America is deeply divided on this issue, and the next election cycle will only heighten the tensions I fear.

(I know, mixed metaphor, but it's hard to focus these days)

323 Kenneth  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:12:02pm

re: #277 Thanos


...Interesting how someone who was pro-VB the other night tried to convince me they weren't uniformed militia, just "activists"

Activists? I guess they're not serious enough to warrant the msm weasle-words "militants" or "insurgents".

324 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:12:09pm

re: #313 Kenneth

I don't know Pamela and have generally agreed with what little I've read but I would guess she's bought off on the principle "any enemy of my enemy..."

I never thought that a good long-term solution as the United States has often learned the hard way.

325 Fjordman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:12:24pm

It's sad to see the intellectual suicide of a blog I once respected, but it's not my choice. I'm actually pretty shocked by the behavior of LGF over the past few days. In the latest post about the Sweden Democrats, Charles used as his main source of information, in addition to Wikipedia, which should never be used as a source in cases such as these, an organization called Expo, one of the least reliable sources in the entire country. It was founded and led by writer Stieg Larsson until his death in 2004. He was an unrepentant Communist, rabidly anti-Christian, anti-Israeli and anti-American, and met his wife during a supporting meeting for the National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam. One commenter at LGF even claimed he was a mercenary for the Soviet Union, which I haven't been able to verify yet:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

"While I support Charles stance on the SDs, the expos aren't really the most reliable source. Of the two founders, one fought as volunteer/mercenary in Africa for the Soviet Union during the cold war and the other is known crazy with a record of both criminal acts (assault, arson against a former girl friend, etc) and racist statements. They recently teamed up with a news show to make a hit-piece about a islamophobic network of bloggers."

Imagine if I wrote something about a controversial political party in the USA, didn't know too much about the country, didn't speak the language and yet linked to a Communist website as my main source of information. That's what Little Green Footballs has been doing. It's grossly dishonest and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with a sensible debate about racism and anti-Semitism.

This use of sources, which would be unworthy even of a C-rated blogger far less one with an international reputation, is something I would otherwise have expected from a had-Left website like Daily Kos. LGF has been at least as bad as DK in this case, and LGF's credibility as a critic of dishonest journalism committed by Leftists and the msm has taken a severe blow. That's sad, but again, it's not my choice.

For those who want to hear the other side of the story, the one systematically never presented here, have a look at these links:

[Link: gatesofvienna.blogspot.com...]
[Link: www.vigilantfreedom.org...]
[Link: gatesofvienna.blogspot.com...]

One of the European attendees at the Counterjihad Summit wrote:

Charles needs to block himself off from reality completely, to be able to uphold two contradicting things: his photo of Oriana Fallaci on the sidebar of his blog, while doing all in his power to bring down our conference (a conference so bad to him that he considers it a no-brainer that Oriana wouldn’t have attended, and considers it arrogance off-the-scale to even suggest the idea).

Who will tell him about how the memorial fund started by Oriana’s friends handed out the Oriana Award at the conference? To Bat Ye’or. A moment that caused a bit of a problem for a big boy like me, because my eyes were brimming with tears. When Bat told us how Oriana called her late at night when she was soon about to die, I had to bite my lips hard so that I wouldn’t start crying for real. I think so many of us could see ourselves in the desperation of Oriana in that moment.

So what was Bat Ye’or, the idol of Oriana, doing at this conference, when it’s so unthinkable that Oriana (according to Charles) would have attended?

The current witch hunt by Charles and his photo of Oriana in his blog are two things so wildly contradicting that it will tear him apart. The truth is there to be told. He won’t hear it right now, because there’s so much noise in that echo-chamber he has created for himself. But the truth will come out, and will eventually reach even Charles. What will he do? Take down the photo of Oriana as he took down the link to Gates of Vienna?

326 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:12:28pm

Marten Toonder. Very little of Toonder's output can be seen online. That was said two years ago, but the easily accessable cartoons don't look anything like that nasty rat.

327 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:12:39pm

The Austrian neofascist Andreas Moelzer (former ideologist of Haiders FPOE) formulated the goals of the new neofascist group ITS in the European Parliament (with the VB members: Koenraad Dillen, Philip Clayes and Frank Vanhecke) as follows:

-to fight the domestication by the USA as world policeman
-not to be automatically pressed on Israels site (as if the EU would stand automatically on Israels site) in the Middle East conflict
-to fight self-conscious the clash of cultures (sic) against the whole Islamic world
-to fight Americanization (in the nationalist sense that Germany (sic) must remain German)

How can anyone align with such [deleted].

328 Bubblehead II  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:13:08pm

re: #21 avirus

Charles you don't need to report on these European neo-Nazis any more you have nothing to prove, just ignore them and wait that Pamela & co will come to their senses on them on

Yeah right! She is still supporting them.

From Atlas Shrugs: [Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

The Center of Vigilant Freedom has an excellent post on the scurrilous accusations hurled at those fighting for Europe's very survival. Please read the whole thing here. Now that is what I call research. I ask that you read the whole thing.

Dewinter in his latest interview said;

...it is very easy for our opponents who want a multicultural and left wing policies over here to put us in the same bag. They have always tried to do that. It is always us to to make a lot of distant between [these groups]... Because always the left wing is treating us a neo fascist and so on. But is there a risk? Of course there is. We should be careful about it We should be very vigilant about it. Don't put eveybody in the same bag. But those groups like Vlaams Belang and others who are courageous. Who are fighting against islamisation . Who are fighting against immigration invasion and those groups who are succeesful like Vlaams Belang...Don't treat us as Neo Nazis or neo fascists just because we are conservatives, just because we are right wing. Just because we stand up for our identity and for our moral values and for our way of life...Don't do that because it would be completely wrong.

I quite agree.

End quote

Yep, she going to come to her senses, when?

329 Buckeye Abroad  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:14:20pm

#254 Ward Cleaver

Not too long. I think they'll have civil wars breaking out in the next couple of years; leftists versus right-wingers like the VBers. All this even before we get to the islamists.

And considering how legitimate concerns of europeans (most who are not VB supporters) were ignored not by just their leftitst governments, but by anyone aware of their dangers of creeping leftist/islamic ideals leaves them the option to turn where? Feel free to offer suggestions regarding their plight.

#259 ploome

I want to see it so bad

Your lust for blood continues unabated I see. Still laughing at you.

#266 avirus

I just hope that Charles will win this battle... and won't just drive the people to his right to the hands of the neo Nazis

Me either. Alternatives are trying to happen and get their voice heard, but I still think a broad brush is being applied over this issue.

330 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:14:56pm

That was really pathetic, Fjordman.

331 Mr Spiffy  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:15:25pm

re: #63 justamomof4

re: #19 debutaunt


7 Pro-Bush Canuck 10/31/07 1:52:45 pm reply quote report 0

We also have to be careful not to indulge in hatred directed at all Muslims. Regardless of the problems we have with Islam as an ideology, lumping 1.2 billion people together and calling them evil is little better than what the KKK says about blacks.

When we try to single out the Islamofascists, it seems to create a sound basis for calling them evil. Then we're told the act of doing that is discriminatory. We aren't allowed to state our case. Hmmm.
re: #7 Pro-Bush Canuck


There is a difference between 'hatred' of, and 'distrust' or awareness of the ideology of all muslims. As recently stated by Bruce Tefft:

Like Nazism, Islam is an ideology one chooses to adhere to. Were there "good" or "moderate" Nazis? If not, then no one can claim that there are good or moderate Muslims as they are voluntarily subscribing to an ideology that advocates murder, torture and jihad and does not permit its follower to cherry-pick which parts they believe in. The requirement to accept the Koran as the literal word of God also carries with it the obligation to accept it all. And as you say, the Koran instructs all Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims and all schools of Islamic thought instruct the subjugation of the non-Muslim world through jihad. Therefore, I do not believe it wise to attempt to create artificial distinctions between Muslims that don't really as far as their attitudes towards non-Muslims is concerned.


As the prime minister of Turkey recently said: There is no radical nor moderate Islam. That is an insult to Muslims. There is only Islam.


We may wish to give Muslims the benefit of doubt, due to our humanistic and liberalized Western way of thinking. But treating the enemy as we wish they were, than as they are, will only lead to our ultimate defeat.


So let me see if I've got this right--we want the "bad" Muslims on our side against the "good" Muslims; and the "good" anti-jihadists as opposed to the "bad" antijihadists?

And they have the nerve in baseball to say ya can't tell the players without a scorecard*


For the record I understand the difference and the distinction,but imagine if you will some poor KosKid trying to do so,

332 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:15:56pm

re: #294 buzzsawmonkey

Buzz,

Superb explanation. I see it in a decreasing number of family members...who see the demonrats as they are now, supporting the current Demonrat Presidential candidates, as opposed to the last century..and when they see the penultimate Jew hater, Carter, and also the Billaries, they are starting to have second thoughts..but the trips that Condi has made, and Laura Bush's trip are not helping.

As of today? Rudy is the one that seems to be their choice. We already are registered Republicans...since President Bush's first campaign.

Any vote for a Demonrat is a vote against America. If our ancestors had not come here searching for freedom, we would not be sitting here posting.

And back then, the Demonrats were a lot different than they are now...they have turned on the Jew.

The Republicans welcome us...a very different world.

I can remember when a candidate could be a common man and run for President...now? The Demonrats are millionaires...look at Silky Pony and the Billaries..ill-gotten gains at our expense..all of us.

And remember Hanoi John Kerry Heinz? And Albore?

333 Kenneth  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:16:15pm

#320 JammieWearingFool

Christmas should be 'downgraded' to help race relations says Labour think tank

Firstly, what "race" are non-Christians?

Secondly the term "Labour think tank" is an oxymoron.

Argggh!

334 Cap'n DOC  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:16:25pm

Only recognized two names: Paul Fromm & David Duke. 'Nuf said.

AFA Pamela goes, her boat has enough holes in it to sink it outright - already.

335 M. Bensson-Levi  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:16:35pm

re: #294 buzzsawmonkey

An extraordinarily insightful post. Learned, well thought out, and historically accurate. Brilliant.

This is why your posts are always worth reading.

Except, of course, the one about you, and the two hookers in the rowboat. Was that you?

336 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:17:25pm

re: #299 Highrise

that interview floored me

Same here.

337 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:18:03pm

re: #331 Mr Spiffy
When we try to single out the Islamofascists, it seems to create a sound basis for calling them evil. Then we're told the act of doing that is discriminatory. We aren't allowed to state our case. Hmmm.

That was my comment. What is the problem?

338 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:18:18pm
339 Cap'n DOC  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:18:54pm

re: #325 Fjordman

The current witch hunt by Charles

Get a grip. Nobody but nobody is on a witch hunt. Especially not Charles.

340 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:19:37pm

re: #304 Charles

A cartoonist with some Nazi ties...
Toonder, De Telegraaf and World War II

Marten Toonder used to publish in Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf, which was strongly pro-Nazi. It has been held against him that he continued working for them after Holland had been occupied by the Germans. He himself did not agree, and neither do I. When the newspaper was taken over by the SS, Toonder quit. Just have another look at how this man depicted aristocracy, police and other forms of authority and you will have to agree; such a man couldn't possibly have been a Nazi. But, just like with P.G. Wodehouse, the story never really died and was raked up again when Toonder himself died in July 2005, age 93. What I always hate about this sort of thing is the hypocrisy of it all: De Telegraaf still is the largest Dutch newspaper and it has hardly changed its spots.
341 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:20:07pm
342 pingjockey  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:20:27pm

What's the uproar? It is quite simple, if you want to be taken seriously don't consort with nazis or their enablers.

343 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:21:24pm

re: #325 Fjordman

You mean Stieg Larsson, famous swedish fiction author (who has a movie adaptation of one of his books premiering very soon), praised opponent of racism, and who was one of the more respected people in Sweden? That Stieg Larsson?

344 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:22:36pm
345 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:23:02pm

re: #325 Fjordman

/Since it is sooo terrible here, why waste your time, you poor little dear, posting to the rest of unworthy little lizards who are too dumb to appreciate your soaring intellect?

Why you are not banned is a mystery. You come here and spit at Charles?

Schmuck.

346 Salamantis  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:23:13pm

Re: #306
We dare not allow ourselves to indulge in willful ignorance on THESE matters.

PIMF

347 EC Marm  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:23:40pm

re: #208 goodbye_natalie
Thanks for the defense. I was making dinner for the wife and getting ready for the trick or treaters. I carefully couched the words I used because I can not personally experience what is happening in certain areas of Europe.
But in my personal experience, when I was young, I saw the death camp tattoo of a survivor. I have personally spoken with Jews (extended family members) that lost a parent or two, seen the photographs of loved ones, and listened to hours of personal testimony about selling personal possessions, converting money to gold, in order to bribe their way out of the country. The Holocaust is therefor very real to me.
I have also read of certain areas in Europe where today girls can not walk the streets without escort without being attacked and raped solely because of the color of their skin. Being the father to a daughter I can understand the rage that would incite in some people. I have personally received hate mail and threats from islamists in Amsterdam because of my views on the ideology of islam. I take those threats very seriously.
I think that on a line of continuum, some people in Europe feel the threat much, much further along that line than we do in this country. The only words I said prior to this thread on this topic was a simple, 'The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.'
I would never give support in any way to a neo-nazi group, but as I said, if my life or the lives of those I love where on the line and it was the final battle and they were there to help in my defense I would not kick them out of the trench. Whether through hyperbole or a need for attention, some may want to portray themselves and Europe as being engaged in the final existential battle, and they now feel the need to enlist 'that element' in the battle, I don't know. I don't see it that way, but I'm 3,000 miles away.

348 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:24:25pm

345 NY Nana 10/31/07 4:23:02 pm reply quote report 0

re: #325 Fjordman

/Since it is sooo terrible here, why waste your time, you poor little dear, posting to the rest of unworthy little lizards who are too dumb to appreciate your soaring intellect?

Why you are not banned is a mystery. You come here and spit at Charles?

Schmuck.

We Fjart in his general direction.
re: #345 NY Nana

349 J.S.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:24:32pm

re: #325 Fjordman

In the event you're unaware -- a major part of your "argument" (the latter part) is a pathetic appeal to emotions -- no evidence presented. Whenever someone does this (resorts to histrionics), it clearly should not be called "intellectual." I trust you are still capable of realizing the distinction.

350 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:24:42pm

re: #345 NY Nana

I think his goal is to keep insulting Charles and the site until he gets banned. Then he'll claim to be a free speech martyr.

351 Perplexed  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:24:56pm

Not even justifying it for a second, but perhaps that some of this is due more to the 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' sort of thing.

352 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:25:23pm

re: #325 Fjordman

I want to say for the record I don't know enough to even form an opinion about the parties involved. I might feel far differently if I were in your situation.

I do know this, though. You have always been one of the most accomplished posters here. What good will come of tearing a relationship apart?

It pits friend against friend and no matter who is right, the truth will come out soon enough.

353 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:25:30pm

Ok, seriously. I've seen a lot among the SD defenders. Granted, I haven't seen a single of the raised issues be refuted, or even attempted to be refuted, but I think it's accurate to say that I've seen a lot.

But slinging shit on Stieg Larsson?

Jeez, Fjordman. That is weak.

354 Kenneth  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:27:01pm

re: #325 Fjordman

Sentimental lip-biting tales of awards to Orianna are impressive, but meaningless. The only thing that does matter is whether or not these parties have a racist or pro-fascist or pro-Nazi element. If they do, and the documented evidence is clear they do, then they are beyond the pale. I'm sorry if that offends you. Perhaps they are renouncing those connections & policies now, but perhaps that is just a bit of window dressing.

By the way, Charles has listed dozens of support documents to bolster his case, many more than the 2 you disingenuously commented upon above.

Fjordman, you are intelligent and rational. It is very hard to explain away a jackbooted, party member carrying a Swastika flag as we have seen pictures of Swedish Dems members. So don;t insult our intelligence. THe link is their.

355 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:27:14pm

re: #325 Fjordman

Either you are brainwashed or you have adopted fascism on your own free will. For the first I would feel sympathy for you for the second I would be disgusted.

356 Buckeye Abroad  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:29:12pm

#355 zuckerlilly

Either you are brainwashed or you have adopted fascism on your own free will.

How soviet of you.

357 Cap'n DOC  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:29:42pm

re: #351 Perplexed

That's really no excuse however. 'We' are not in lockstep. I personally see mohammedanism (no matter the flavor) as evil, but I will not hate the sinner. A lot of folks would find fault with my lack of militantism on both sides of me, but I choose to argue against violence until it can no longer be avoided.

358 mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:29:43pm

re: #325 Fjordman

I had to bite my lips hard so that I wouldn’t start crying for real.

geesh. Who knew someone who advocates mass deportations of all Muslims could have such a soft spot.

359 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:32:19pm
360 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:32:19pm

re: #296 NY Nana


Note to me: One down, one to go.

I hate it when I am right in cases like this.

361 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:32:42pm

re: #294 buzzsawmonkey

At the risk of stepping on a few toes, I'd like to use this controversy to address a question which often arises here.

Lots of people, over the past several months, have asked why so many Jews blind themselves to the antisemitism currently emanating from the Left. The question is usually answered by emphasizing a number of historical facts; that the Left, since the time that the grandparents or great-grandparents of most of the Jews posting here left Eastern Europe, the Left seemed to be the Jews' ally against the brutal and repressive regime of the Czar, and against the institutionalized prejudices of the other old regimes of Europe. Moving closer in time, the Left was the moving force behind the unions that protected those grandparents and great-grandparents when they came here; was an ally against the Nazis; was the force behind the New Deal programs which held many families together during the Depression--and was a voice against antisemitism in the US at a time when it was much more open, and some of it, alas, emanated from religious sources.

Why do I bring this up now? Because aside from whatever residual loyalty Jews have towards the Left, the fear of the reactionary forces which the Left appeared to combat in the past is even more deeply ingrained, and contributes to their inertia-based reluctance to discard the Left, fickle and treacherous "ally" though it is.

The feelings of betrayal and attendant caution which I see here towards those formerly considered unimpeachable friends and allies should make people more readily able to understand how ingrained caution and fear of betrayal can become. When one has been brought up to regard people of a certain political stripe as hostile, even if their rhetoric is otherwise acceptable one approaches the prospect of allying with them, and abandoning one's former allies, with immense trepidation, always fearful that that which made them unacceptable originally will rear its ugly head. Jews who may be finding the Leftist straitjacket an increasingly uncomfortable fit are nonetheless trepidatious about accepting new allies at face value, for fear that some of the sentiments which have caused dismay here will suddenly rear their heads.

That so many here have rejected the notion of an alliance of convenience with less than savory types who nonetheless appear to hold similar positions shows me that the Jews tentatively entertaining the thought of re-evaluating their political stance should be encouraged to do so. They should recognize the tremendous stand of principle being taken here, and should also realize that, few as their numbers may be, their numbers are needed.

In the meantime, if this whole unfortunate shakeout helps give some people a visceral understanding of why some Jews hesitate to abandon a Left which has long since abandoned them, that will be one good result.

So sorry to say... the Jewish community is going adrift. Stunned by things coming from the left and right. So if you want the few not to leave the right (and heaven forbid attract from the left), then the right needs to clean out the ranks, just like Charles is talking about for Europe. We know these people:

Mikey

362 Josephine  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:33:51pm

re: #56 dicentra

It's worth noting that in the Shire Network News interview, DeWinter made a point of saying that it was wrong for the predecessor party of Vlaams Belang to collaborate with the Nazis...

...on the grounds that they didn't get an independent Flemish state, which they hoped the Nazis would give them if they helped out with the Nazi agenda.

So what we have here is a group of people who are so fanatically dedicated to a political goal—Flemish independence—that they were willing to make a deal with the devil to get it, even if that meant sending untold numbers of their countrymen to the camps.

The anti-Islamization movement is subject to the same temptation: hitch up with some unsavories for political expediency, even though the unsavories are inclined to (a) go way too far overboard, even to the point of mass murder, and (b) not give the anti-Islamization movement what it wants, which is a Europe in which the immigrants assimilate better.

Anyone who thinks it's safe to hook up with neo-Nazi types and come out clean at the other end is as delusional as a moonbat who thinks we can negotiate with the jihadis.

My take on what he said was similar to yours except, after he expressed it a second or third time, I thought, "Wait a minute, he's not saying it was wrong because of what the Nazis did or what they stood for, he's saying it was wrong because, in the end, the Nazis didn't help them achieve independence."

I could be mistaken but that was my impression.

363 profitsbeard  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:34:11pm

re: #304 Charles

re: #277 Thanos


Kilgore -- took some digging since they killed the links from the main page, but here is where it is. I saved a local copy. Check page 12, and the very last page, where you see an ad for an NSV rally.

Interestingly enough, they have a new "Diversity Charter" up on the Vlaams Belang Jongeren main page now. I think they are either trying hard to change, or trying hard to hide the dirt.

Also note this site with an interesting side bar banner link to VMO, another radical student militia.

Interesting how someone who was pro-VB the other night tried to convince me they weren't uniformed militia, just "activists"


Interesting. I'm curious to know what the text says that accompanies the rat illustration. It isn't a very sympathetic picture; I'm wondering if it's a repudiation of the White Pride symbol, in fact.

The "strip rubriek" ( or "comic strip heading") little rodent appears to be a (strange) pro-VB character, who apparently makes witty editorial cartoons on topics aimed at kids (his tail is his 'pen'). A Mickey the Rat for youthful political satire.

The article mourns the death of a famous EU cartoonist who drew "Tom Poes" (Tom Cat /Tom the Pussycat), a very mild children's series, but it mentions he started heis career drawing in anti-Nazi Resistance "underground" magazines "Storm" and "Evening" during WW II.

What would appear to the casual viewer to be an unsympathetic rat seems to be VB for kids' version of the classical cranky American strip cartoon mouse from the 1920s' (created by don marquis) "archy" (of "archy and mehitabel" notoriety).

And not a repudiation of anything VB.

Any other Dutch/Vlaams readers know more about this icon?

364 Athos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:34:16pm

I've spent some time reading Charles posts, also wading into the cesspool, and this is not a case either 'the enemy of my enemy is friend' or a case where we can choose to look aside from their positions just because on the one subject of counter-jihad they appear to share the same goal of stopping islamofascism.

There is little, from the statements and associations of those groups, that I can endorse or feel comfortable with. Their counter-jihad mission is not my counter-jihad mission. Their other positions are contrary to all that I stand for. We don't need allies with those values.

We witness those of the center-left and left associated and often ignore the reprehensible posture of the radical left on a number of issues because there is a 'common' goal of their political agenda to re-gain power. The failure of the center-left or not so deranged left to denounce or take a stand against the outrageous and dangerous positions of the radical is something that those on the other side of the spectrum draw focus towards. Many on the other side of the spectrum point to these associations and the failure of those of the left to distance themselves from the loons as a fundamental problem of the mindset of the left. Given that, if we on the right or center do not point to those unacceptable traits and beliefs, we are no different from what we criticize. We would rightly be open to the call of hypocrisy.

Unlike Sir Winston Churchill proclaimed himself ready to do, I am not willing to make a deal with the devil in order to defeat Hitler islamofascism. We can win and maintain our values.

365 Geepers  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:35:21pm

JammieWearingFool (#320),

Seems like England is trying its damnedest to commit suicide.

366 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:35:50pm

Fjordman -- we are linking to sites that are neo-nazi, we are linking to VB's own sites, and finding enough evidence without anything from expo, thanks.

I can hit many of the youth pages linked from VB sites, and blogs supporting VB and go direct to nazi sites. Is that enough?

Is the white power symbol in VB leader Filip Dewinter's own video enough?

Is the David Duke show enough?

That's not from Expo.

Besides which I personally did a deep dive on Expo, and the NGO's they are associated with, it's where I've been the past week or so. It's why posting on my personal blog has been so thin. I trust the factual evidence they are presenting.

367 Perplexed  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:37:24pm

re: #364 Athos


Unlike Sir Winston Churchill proclaimed himself ready to do, I am not willing to make a deal with the devil in order to defeat Hitler islamofascism. We can win and maintain our values.

I would hope that your assessment is correct.

368 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:37:55pm

re: #363 profitsbeard

Thanks. I was just reading up on Marten Toonder. There are some allegations regarding his sympathies. Here on of the only political cartoons I can find from him: Marten Toonder

Thanks for the perspective on the Vlaams Nazi Propaganda Rat.

369 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:38:13pm

re: #347 EC Marm

Bless you. This video is not easy to watch, but there are many who have never seen the tattooed numbers. Sadly, I have, too many, but now? We are losing the survivors...to old age, but we must never forget.

The deniers are crawling out of the primordial ooze...in battalions.

370 jeppo[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:39:36pm
371 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:39:38pm

re: #361 Sunlight

Speechless.

372 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:39:54pm

Has this been posted yet?

Father of fallen soldier wins almost 11 million dollars in verdict against Fred Phelps and his crackpot church!...

Father wins millions from war funeral picketers

Thank God.

373 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:41:17pm

re: #366 Thanos

Does it matter? It's not like he's been trying to refute any of Expo's claims anyway. He can't, obviously, so instead he just calls them liars.

374 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:41:36pm
375 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:41:57pm

re: #325 Fjordman
The more you protest I become more convinced that we are on the right path and that you're upset about being discovered. It was bound to happen sooner or later. I feel pretty comfortable that we will continue to find more and more dirt on VB and SD. The fact that you're still protesting leads me to believe we haven't discovered the really good stuff yet.

376 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:44:25pm

In that exchange about Oriana Fallaci, by the way, I did not claim to know what Fallaci would have thought about the participation of Sweden Democrats and Vlaams Belang in the counter-jihad conference. I don't know; and neither does Fjordman. However, I look at her lifelong history of standing up against all manifestations of fascism, and I think it's quite likely she would not have liked those groups.

This has nothing to do with Bat Ye'or or her communications with Oriana Fallaci, of course.

Fjordman, however, apparently believes he knows beyond any doubt that Fallaci would have wholeheartedly embraced these groups.

377 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:44:51pm
378 Lizard by the Bay  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:45:14pm

re: #345 NY Nana

Why you are not banned is a mystery. You come here and spit at Charles?

Schmuck.

Last time I checked, this was a blog, not a Cult of Personality. Many can disagree intellectually with Charles without it being a personal attack. Try it sometime, Nana.

379 Yankee Division Son  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:45:45pm

re: #65 Charles


I'm not going to ignore it, sorry. And I'm not "keeping a fight going," I'm bringing up more evidence to support my position.

Bravo. Practially the whole world tried to ignore, excuse or claim "it's none of our business" reguarding this kind of crapola from the end of world war one through 1939, and some even after that.

We all know how well that turned out..

".The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it..."

-George Bernard Shaw

380 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:45:51pm
381 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:46:14pm
382 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:47:07pm
383 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:47:14pm

Fascinating that Fjordman took the time to paste in that block of text in this topic, though -- since it has absolutely nothing to do with the post above, and makes no attempt at all to dispute the facts in the post it does reference.

384 Perplexed  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:48:11pm

'night all. Early travel day tomorrow.

385 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:48:26pm
386 pingjockey  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:48:38pm

Up thread someone posted a comment about W. S. Churchill and a deal with the devil. In WWII we did make a deal with the devil,(Stalin) to defeat the nazis. We can defeat the islamists without resorting to dealing with present day nazis.

387 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:48:55pm

re: #363 profitsbeard

The "strip rubriek" ( or "comic strip heading") little rodent appears to be a (strange) pro-VB character, who apparently makes witty editorial cartoons on topics aimed at kids (his tail is his 'pen'). A Mickey the Rat for youthful political satire.

The article mourns the death of a famous EU cartoonist who drew "Tom Poes" (Tom Cat /Tom the Pussycat), a very mild children's series, but it mentions he started heis career drawing in anti-Nazi Resistance "underground" magazines "Storm" and "Evening" during WW II.

What would appear to the casual viewer to be an unsympathetic rat seems to be VB for kids' version of the classical cranky American strip cartoon mouse from the 1920s' (created by don marquis) "archy" (of "archy and mehitabel" notoriety).

And not a repudiation of anything VB.

Thanks, that answers my question pretty well. So the white pride armband the rat is wearing is apparently intentional, and not supposed to be a negative symbol.

388 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:48:56pm
389 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:49:54pm

Yes, Charles does not ban dissenters, I"ve disagreed with him at times, most recent while everyone praised him re the radio show I said it sounded a bit BDS. That is the strength of this blog and its community, both dissent and trolls are tolerated if they stay reasoned.

390 itellu3times  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:50:36pm

re: #376 Charles

In that exchange about Oriana Fallaci, by the way, I did not claim to know what Fallaci would have thought about the participation of Sweden Democrats and Vlaams Belang in the counter-jihad conference. I don't know; and neither does Fjordman. However, I look at her lifelong history of standing up against all manifestations of fascism, and I think it's quite likely she would not have liked those groups.

Of course she would have despised them, but since she also went fearlessly into the lion's den, she might have attended and spoken.

In this, btw, I see her as NOTHING like Laura Bush in her recent Big Adventure, Fallaci was famous for stripping off the burqa, not putting it on.

Ow, it hurts even to write this stuff.

391 ex-dem  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:50:51pm

Unlike Sir Winston Churchill proclaimed himself ready to do, I am not willing to make a deal with the devil in order to defeat islamofascism. We can win and maintain our values.

I agree and thank Charles for making this so clear. Certainly one need not disagree with reasonable statements ,just because they happen to be made by bigots. But one can't support a group associated with bigotry, even if they profess to be "moderates," until they are willing to disassociate themselves from the bigotry. This is what we expect of moderate followers of Islam and it is reasonable for others to expect that of us. One hopes these parties - - which include far more than bigots - - will cleanse themselves, but until they do . . .

392 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:52:12pm
393 Perplexed  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:52:16pm

re: #388 taxfreekiller

"The Process" of destroying the U.S. from the inside.

Started with LBJ.
Moved on to Norman Lear, esp All in the Family.
Political Correctness infecting every aspect of society.

Couple that to our families failing to properly raise children to be responsible citizens and we might be witnessing the fall of the US.

394 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:52:24pm

re: #361 Sunlight

Though Buzzsaw is more than capable of addressing your concern, I can attest that Buzzsaw works very hard at reconciliation between Christian and Jew. I'm not sure as his friend it isn't his true calling.

There is no doubt there are fools and hatemongers on the right who could soon do without a Jew. There are many sins on both sides. As a Christian, I can only say this with respect to the article:

Any Christian openly hostile towards Judaism is damaging himself. And if he is too ignorant to realize this and not change his ways, I can assure you he will reap what he sows.

395 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:52:26pm
396 itellu3times  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:52:27pm

re: #379 Yankee Division Son

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it..."

-George Bernard Shaw

Too frickin' true.

397 Mr Spiffy  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:52:56pm

re: #337 debutaunt

my intent was a reply to PBC, sorry

398 Render  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:53:36pm

[Link: users.westnet.gr...]

[Link: www.xs4all.nl...]

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

[Link: 64.233.169.104...]

I never used a single Wiki link, in any post related to this subject, because I never needed to.

Go back to your Islamofascist allies, they like you better.

ARMORED
SAINT,
R

399 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:53:44pm

In Fjordman's increasingly hysterical posts to me, he insists on missing the point.

...while doing all in his power to bring down our conference...

I've told you over and over that I support the goals of the conference, but have serious misgivings about the participation of Vlaams Belang and Sweden Democrats. I've documented the reasons for those misgivings.

Why do you keep misrepresenting me like that?

400 pingjockey  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:54:14pm

re: #392 taxfreekiller

Wish I could remember the quote, by Cicero I think, about being on the alert for the enemy inside the gates. That is what cair and the rest are doing using the current pc lunacy against the people of this country.

401 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:54:23pm

re: #348 debutaunt

We Fjart in his general direction.

Why didn't I think of that?

We could make it a joint venture for all of us lizards...do lizards fjart?

402 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:54:37pm

fjordman has made a number of posts that were attack in nature toward the community here and towards Charles, personally. One even went so far as to be a little bit scary that I already linked here in this thread.

Just keeping it real.

403 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:54:47pm

re: #383 Charles

I thought the exact same thing. And... Like... He's one of the most famous authors in Sweden right now! Do a google search for him and you get around 2 million results. Did I mention he was a sci-fi geek and a journalist? Not your typical soviet mercenary. The claim is astoundingly stupid. But Fjordman doesn't seem to have any problems with dubious information himself, even if he's quick to accuse you of it.

Oh, and Fjordman, don't talk ill of the dead, asshole.

404 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:54:54pm

re: #325 Fjordman


...while doing all in his power to bring down our conference...

fjordman,

I don't think Charles tried to "bring down" your conference, he just thinks that you should reconsider some of the people and parties that you've aligned yourself with.

And I agree with him.

I've always enjoyed reading you essays but your "counter-jihad" movement will never work if you allow ultra-Right-nationalists and racial-purists to join your cause.

I'll repeat that, since you don't seem to be hearing: Your "counter-jihad" movement will never work if you allow ultra-Right-nationalists and racial-purists to join your cause.

Do the right thing and dump them. Tell 'em to take a hike.

405 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:55:03pm

re: #394 goodbye_natalie

re: #361 Sunlight

Though Buzzsaw is more than capable of addressing your concern, I can attest that Buzzsaw works very hard at reconciliation between Christian and Jew. I'm not sure as his friend it isn't his true calling.

There is no doubt there are fools and hatemongers on the right who could soon do without a Jew. There are many sins on both sides. As a Christian, I can only say this with respect to the article:

Any Christian openly hostile towards Judaism is damaging himself. And if he is too ignorant to realize this and not change his ways, I can assure you he will reap what he sows.

I'm glad Buzzsaw is in tune. I would add, however, that in my experience many people do not reap what they sow. It would be a better world if they did, but I never count on that.

406 Geepers  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:55:30pm

Fjordman (#325),

Imagine if I wrote something about a controversial political party in the USA, didn't know too much about the country, didn't speak the language and yet linked to a Communist website as my main source of information.

Yes, let's imagine that.

OK, done. Thanks for the excursion into fantasy land.

407 Bubblehead II  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:55:45pm

re: #37 Charles

re: #16 meMarc
"Political Cesspool" has had some interesting guest including Pat Buchanan, and Gary Pucket of the Union Gap.
Re: #37
Gary Puckett also wrote the extremely creepy "Young Girl," a paean to pedophilia.

Re: #47 Pro-Bush Canuck
Young girl, get out of my mind
My love for you is way out of line
Better run girl,
You're much too young girl
With all the charms of a woman
You've kept the secret of your youth
You led me to believe
You're old enough
To give me Love
And now it hurts to know the truth, Oh,
Beneath your perfume and make-up
You're just a baby in disguise
And though you know
That it is wrong to be
Alone with me
That come on look is in your eyes, Oh,
So hurry home to your mama
I'm sure she wonders where you are
Get out of here
Before I have the time
To change my mind
'Cause I'm afraid we'll go too far, Oh,
Young girl

Creepy? Not really, it sound more like a warning to men to be wary of how old a “woman” really is and if you find out she is a minor, send her away because it is wrong. Heck in the last stanza he tells her to leave before his hormone's over come his common sense. I don’t see this song as advancing pedophilia. Sorry Charles.

BTW: Have you given consideration to my E-Mail request?

408 jeppo[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:55:57pm
409 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:58:10pm

re: #370 jeppo

They are just as little pro-American as they are pro-Israel.

410 goodbye_natalie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:58:27pm

re: #405 Sunlight

I'm glad Buzzsaw is in tune. I would add, however, that in my experience many people do not reap what they sow. It would be a better world if they did, but I never count on that.

Oh, it happens. You and I may not witness it but it happens.

I knew you weren't being critical of Buzzsaw. I have just known him for a time and wasn't sure if you did.

411 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 4:59:55pm

re: #294 buzzsawmonkey

P.S. Mr. Buzzsaw - Here's the actual organization:

Military Religious Freedom Foundation

They have shined a lot of light...

412 EC Marm  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:00:10pm

re: #369 NY Nana

Bless you. This video is not easy to watch, but there are many who have never seen the tattooed numbers. Sadly, I have, too many, but now? We are losing the survivors...to old age, but we must never forget.

The deniers are crawling out of the primordial ooze...in battalions.


Good video.
Of the 100 billion things (conservative estimate) I have forgotten from my youth that is not one of them. Something about someone I had never met before saying, "Never forget this," or words to that effect, as he rolled up his sleeve, caused me to remember. Having a parent that thought it was an important lesson probably helped, too.

413 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:00:12pm

re: #389 Thanos

if they stay reasoned.

Yes, that is very true...but IMHO, Fjordman is so OTT, hateful and nasty that he reminds me of Rayra.

Dinnertime...

414 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:00:19pm

re: #408 jeppo

#325 Fjordman

Thank you for sticking to your guns, though you were a little pissy at Charles personally.

I for one do NOT fjart in your general direction ;-)

Sticking to his guns? Ok, if you say so. But there was nothing of substance in that post.

415 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:00:37pm

re: #225 ContraJihadi

I wish I could understand why Pamela Geller, who surely has not a single Nazi bone in her body, is convinced that VB is free of the racist taint, and why she refuses seriously to consider, rebut if possible, the evidence Charles has presented. She claims VB is acceptable because Bat Ye'or has associated with them. Bat Ye'or is a fine person, but why cannot Pamela consider that here she has made a mistake. How could Pamela know without scrupulously examining VB's statements and actions?

My guess is that once she became emotionally attached to the notion that VB is a worthy ally in the fight against jihad, appeals to reason ceased to have any effect.

At least she has apologized for her outburst, and Baron Bodissey remains friendly, but some of the comments on both sites have been very nasty.

'Tis very sad. The chill between LGF and Atlas/Gates of Vienna, this unpleasantness between bloggers who are not themselves fascist at all, can only harm the campaign against jihad.

One has to assume that Stan is very happy at this turn of events.

416 BeerForMyHorses  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:00:53pm

re: #402 Highrise

Scary? In what way?

417 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:01:01pm
418 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:01:23pm

Saruman and wormtongue chat.

419 Fjordman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:01:30pm

BTW: I am now leaving the comments section here at LGF, at least for some time. I've tried to reason with people here, but its abundantly clear that neither Charles not many of his readers have any interest whatsoever of having an actual debate about these things, and certainly not about the real threats to freedom in Europe.

This raises a question I have asked before. Americans say that you will never become involved in Europe again. Fine. But another question is, if native Europeans actually start fighting back against Islamization for real, whose side would Americans be on? Would you be on ours, or would you back the poor, Muslims victims of white European racism and xenophobia? Judging from the aggressive hostility and anti-European bigotry which is noticeable in many posts regarding this topic, I fear the latter answer.

I've been posting at LGF for years. There is a strong anti-European undercurrent here. I have rarely said much when confronted with it because I know the anti-American bias in much of Europe is usually worse, and I had no intention of creating more intra-Western rifts. However, I'd like to say a couple of things. I have read several times here the suggestion by some readers that Europeans are weak because the world wars, and immigration to the USA, finished off all the dynamic ones. In other words: European culture is weak because Europeans have "weak genes." This argument would have been

unthinkable

against any other ethnic group on the planet and would have been denounced as racist immediately. It is considered acceptable for one, and only one reason, and that is because those being tarred with it are white Europeans.

In the parallel universe inhabited by some posters here, although not all, there are three kinds of Europeans: 1. Nazis, Fascists and racists. 2. Those who died in two world wars. 3. Those who have left for the United States. If we're not dead and don't lave for the USA yet decide to fight back against Islamization then we have to be Nazis.

LGFers base their world-view on the existence of a moderate Islam, which doesn't exist, and on the existence of a large and rabid network of neo-Nazis in Europe, which also doesn't exist. Neo-Nazi groups do exist, but they are generally quite marginal, for the very simple reason that people don't like them. I agree that they should be watched, but they are far down the list of enemies of freedom in Europe right now, behind Muslims, Leftists and the European Union. You're not behaving in a rational manner. The only theoretical reason why even a fraction of Europeans would embrace real extremists groups would be if they have their backs against the wall and everybody else has abandoned them. That's exactly what we're trying to avoid with this network. The only thing Charles will achieve with these posts is to delay the formation of anti-Islamization efforts in Europe and thus drive people further into the hands of the few extremist groups that do exist. I don't care whether that is the intention or not, that is the actual result.

As I have said before: The is no other continent on the planet today where the indigenous peoples are being systematically stripped of their heritage, displaced in their own cities and subject to violence and abuse with the active involvement of their own authorities, yet where this is considered a good thing. Yes, I think this reveals an anti-European and anti-white bias.

Why do American politicians across the board, including Republicans and senior members of the Bush administration, cooperate with La Raza, a group Charles himself calls a Hispanic supremacist group? Why is this considered OK, while native Europeans who simply don't want to become a minority in their own countries are demons?

Bye for now. I'm leaving LGF for a while.

420 jaunte  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:01:31pm

Some more information...
Belgian website with an english page with anti-Vlaams Blok views:
[Link: www.blokwatch.be...]

Main page:
[Link: www.blokwatch.be...]

421 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:02:30pm

I just can't get over "Stieg Larsson killed people for the soviets in Africa"... To me, it ranks in the top ten list of "most disgustingly false smears" through this entire ordeal.

422 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:02:55pm

re: #419 Fjordman

I'll take that to mean you have no response for the post at the top of this thread.

423 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:04:16pm
424 therewaslight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:05:53pm

re: #56 dicentra


Anyone who thinks it's safe to hook up with neo-Nazi types and come out clean at the other end is as delusional as a moonbat who thinks we can negotiate with the jihadis.

Perfect analogy. Baby dinosaurs look cute too.

re: #370 jeppo


The rest of the Belgian political spectrum ranges from socialist-lite to crypto-communist to proto-dhimmi. For all the diligent research you fine folks have done on the VB, how about focusing on some other political options that anti-jihadist Belgians might explore. Good luck with that, there are none.

The fascists might make some headway into the European Union. The EU isn't democratic so it can change it's stance on something overnight. Doesn't need one of those old fashion'd mandates from an electorate.

Since the EU is chock full of pure-bread Euros the fascists can more easily get in through disguise than the Islamists who are mostly immigrants. This is especially the case if multiculturalists get their way and allow them to keep their own (i.e non Euro) languages. Once in power the Euro fascists would likely hate on the Jews for their own gain. If they could destroy Israel they'd would then turn on the Muslims. If this is one probable future we need to start thinking of a rational middle path, not making emotional statements about war.


The Vlaams Belang , warts and all, are the last line of defense between a friendly, Western, Judeo-Christian ally and the coming Islamic Republic of al-Belgium. And that's why they deserve the support of conservative anti-jihadists everywhere.

You just ignore the European Union then? I know it's PC Central and it's hard to believe it could do anything pro-white. But EU is pro-itself and since the EU is chock-full of pro-EU Eurowhites it might as well be called the last bastion of old Europe.

425 Capt_Faust  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:06:19pm

OT/ but not that OT from the indoctrination thread...

YOU thought indoctrinating your university students was bad...look at this!

Nickelodeon is busy brainwashing the (and I hate this useless word) "tween" market to become more anti-war, anti-GWOT, anti-GITMO...etc...

They have a "news" segment for kids, and it is chocked full of this unadulterated propaganda...

I knew the MSM was bad, and children's shows were starting to slide further and further left, but look at this link and tell me your not concerned at this complete and utter bullsh*t!

Nickelodeon brainwashes your kids with "NEWS"...

(you've got to sit through the ad at the beginning first...sorry)

426 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:06:29pm
427 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:08:00pm
428 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:08:12pm

re: #419 Fjordman

What you don't seem to get, is that what is considered "racially homogenous nationalism" in Europe is simply considered "racism" in America. And, might I add: Rightfully so.

429 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:09:06pm
430 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:09:59pm

re: #422 Charles

re: #419 Fjordman

I'll take that to mean you have no response for the post at the top of this thread.

And you would be right. I've argued in the distant past with Fjordman over other subjects, I quit doing so when I realized he was always going to change the topic, eventually ending with European heritage under assault.

As I have said before: The is no other continent on the planet today where the indigenous peoples are being systematically stripped of their heritage, displaced in their own cities and subject to violence and abuse with the active involvement of their own authorities, yet where this is considered a good thing. Yes, I think this reveals an anti-European and anti-white bias.


I guess the Buddhists dying in Yala and Pattani don't count. Or the Indonesians who are faced with Hizb-ut-Tahrir rallies, or the Philippines with their bands of extremists, or Israel, or Canada, or the US for that matter. Yep, those Euro tribal nationalists have it pegged, the Wahabbists are just after them.

431 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:10:06pm
432 crawdad  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:10:27pm

Should LGF shun anyone who has ever appeared on that show?
The list of guests includes Chris Simcox and Jim Gilchrist, the founders of the Minutemen border watch group.
Judging from past posts, the Minutemen have the sympathy and affection of a large percentage of the readership here, despite the fact that the Minutemen group has been widely (and fairly convincingly) connected to racism and racist groups, both directly and indirectly, despite the fact that Mssrs Simcox and Gilchrist have often stated publicly that they will have no truck with racists.
It would seem that moral and ethical consistency should dictate that LGF should post something to distance this blog from the previous supportive stance it has taken toward them. All the arguments about moral cleanliness that apply to the Counter-Jihad Movement should apply to the Border Protection Movement.
I and many others are very dismayed at this current contretemps, and would like to see the issue resolved with reason and debate.
Your best arguments have already been made (and some have been quite good), so sit back and let the prosecution rest. If you do not get responses that you consider satisfactory, there you have it
Letting/making this degenerate into a childish game of "gotcha," piling on weaker and weaker arguments will only serve to weaken your overall case and make it easier for people to dismiss your earlier, more solid points.
"'A'" and 'B' both appeared on radio-show 'X' is a very weak argument indeed.

433 mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:11:03pm

Fjordman, fighting radicalism with radicalism won't work.

434 BeerForMyHorses  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:11:35pm

re: #432 crawdad

Well said.

435 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:12:17pm

re: #419 Fjordman



I have read several times here the suggestion by some readers that Europeans are weak because the world wars, and immigration to the USA, finished off all the dynamic ones. In other words: European culture is weak because Europeans have "weak genes."

That's bullshit and you know it. Provide me with one single link that anyone here said Europeans are genetically weak. You really think your race has been insulted? You are out of your white mind.

436 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:12:47pm
437 BeerForMyHorses  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:14:01pm

re: #436 taxfreekiller

And bicker like a bunch of sophomoric school kids.

438 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:14:42pm

re: #432 crawdad

It would seem that moral and ethical consistency should dictate that LGF should post something to distance this blog from the previous supportive stance it has taken toward them. All the arguments about moral cleanliness that apply to the Counter-Jihad Movement should apply to the Border Protection Movement.

Only if you ignore all of the other evidence and links to white supremacist groups I've documented. But apparently you're OK with doing that.

439 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:15:05pm
440 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:18:05pm

What about the claim, now totally proven wrong, of that photo with the white power flag and an alleged VB flag? That wasn't even a VB rally, that wasn't a VB flag...

flags

Will Charles admit he was wrong on that one?

What about hearing a little bit about the trial in which DeWinter was found guilty and his parties abstaing from voting for a so-called resolution honoring Holocaust victims?

racism trials

This trial and the change from Blok to Belang was one of the first things brought here to "prove" VB's so-called fascist and/or racist tendencies... Will someone here care for some perspective on that?

Things are not black-and-white and I'm sorry to see my favorite blog falling for some propaganda. I am not doubting the noble intentions of Charles, of course, I wholeheartedly agree that the counterjihad movement MUST NOT associate itself with neo-nazi sons of b*tches, but are we not overreacting here to some evidence that is not that rock hard here?

Why the persecution (not by Charles, mind you! but by many here) of Fjordman, a true fighter in the cause of countering the jihadists, just because he expressed scepticism, and anyone should have? Don't we fault the KosKidz for the kind of herd mentality that is dominating this subject here? Should we not be sceptical - Fjordman here was the only one to have actually MET the guy in person and talked to him... Give him a break.

OK, Charles, do not take this as an insult. This is still my favorite blog. But I am seriously disappointed that you are not even considering that some of the evidence you presented early in this kerfuffle were not that sound (the flag, the outlawing of the Blok, etc).flags

441 J.S.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:18:47pm

re: #419 Fjordman

"Weak genes?" heh, that's a new one. I haven't read any comments about Europeans having "weak genes..." Must have missed it..

442 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:20:26pm

When war comes again in Europe it will be groups like VB and SD that usher it in.
Their single consistent cause over the many years has been Flemish independence with a purist stripe to it. Any other positions they choose are to advance their main cause, and thus the fashion of the day. They pay lip service to many causes like liberty -- but in their books it's liberty for me, but not too much for thee.

443 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:21:33pm

re: #419 Fjordman


if native Europeans actually start fighting back against Islamization for real

with concentration camps or with deportation?

Europeans have "weak genes.

you are the only one who is obsessed with "European genes".

Reading your post reminds me of people who are believing in aliens and in unidentified flying objects. To satisfy your neofascist point of view you hallucinate a danger which doesn't exist in this extent. The typical scare mongering of the neofascist to create a climate of scare and hate. Reminds me on the Nazis and the jews.

444 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:22:00pm
445 Geepers  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:22:03pm

Charles (#422),

I think that was a parting shot as it were.

I just really don't get this whole position of attacking you because of your concerns about associating with Vlaams Belang (and the misrepresentation of your concerns to score points have been strawmen beyond the pale.)

So until someone can convince me otherwise of what I believe is a false choice of siding with Vlaams Belang or else watching EUrope go down the toilet I'm going to stay anti-islamist and distant from them.

446 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:22:20pm

I can't speak to the debate that's been going on here, I've only been back at the computer for the last few days, so I've only caught in at the tail end of it. It is 'funny' that while in DC, my dad and I were talking about the future of Europe, and I commented that the coin was still up in the air turning. I gave it a 75% chance that the muslims will indeed take over, but a 25% chance that the native Europeans (no, there was no slam in that) would feel their backs against the wall, and lash out in rather ugly ways, and in unified ways. As Fjordman says, I don't live there, have only traveled there once, and it's easy for me to look down my nose at things there, from the nice safe confines of West Texas. Europe is far worse off than we are here, though it is certainly coming here as well. Their culture is being stripped, by their own elites, leaving them wide open for domination by the people they are importing who make no bones about their desire to conquer them. Am I making excuses? Not at all. The idea of allying with some of these groups is repugnant to me, and I truly hope that Fjordman is right that they won't do so. These are troubled times, and we need to choose our allies well, then fight tooth and nail.

447 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:23:05pm

re: #440 Brazilian Neocon

The flag issue has been addressed ad nauseum. Go back and read through the relevant threads if you're still confused.

448 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:23:52pm

re: #440 Brazilian Neocon

What about the claim, now totally proven wrong, of that photo with the white power flag and an alleged VB flag? That wasn't even a VB rally, that wasn't a VB flag


We discussed that one to death, the flag of Flanders was the one in front, the Vlaams flag was behind the white power sign. Look again.

449 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:25:49pm
450 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:27:08pm

re: #440 Brazilian Neocon

You and your source are wrong (once again) about the issue of the flags, as I showed here: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

The all black lion flag is the symbol of Flemish independence and it is one of the flags by which the Vlaams Belang is identified.

451 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:27:36pm

re: #446 bikermailman

The idea of allying with some of these groups is repugnant to me, and I truly hope that Fjordman is right that they won't do so.

And this is the crux of the issue. The evidence points to that they ARE. This isn't about trusting fjordman about what those groups end up doing.
This is more than repugnant, this is outrageous.


There are about 4 other threads or so that go into this subject rather deeply, not sure if you saw them all.

And welcome back :)

452 USBeast  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:29:41pm

I think it all boils down to this: You either believe in "Liberty and Justice for all" or you don't.

If you do; Hail, fellow, and well met.

If you don't; the door is that way.

453 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:31:55pm

Brazilian -- just to make sure you know what you are talking about, please look at the white power flag. You will notice that you can see through a portion of it. NOTE in paricular the position and shape of the lion's tail behind the white power sign. Then compare that to any VB flag you care to find on the net. Come back and say it's not a VB flag after that and I will know you for a liar. It's indisputable.

454 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:32:18pm

It's amazing how much misinformation is being thrown at us, to obfuscate the issues.

455 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:33:24pm

re: #448 Thanos

re: #440 Brazilian Neocon


What about the claim, now totally proven wrong, of that photo with the white power flag and an alleged VB flag? That wasn't even a VB rally, that wasn't a VB flag

We discussed that one to death, the flag of Flanders was the one in front, the Vlaams flag was behind the white power sign. Look again.

Of course I read the whole discussion about the flag here, but you simply got it wrong. It's just another Flemish flag. Go to the link I provided and you will see what I mean. And you will know exactly, from people THERE in Flanders about that specific protest, btw, by a group that DESPISES the Vlaams Belang...

Not because you discussed ad nauseam here can you say that you have arrived at the right answer (brush up on your logic, please, this kind of fallacy is getting quite old here), just using images from Google and the VB site. Why not hear the people on the ground who witnessed that particular protest?

456 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:34:24pm

re: #451 Highrise

Thank you...it was a great trip, DC was great, the shuttle launch was great, the remnants of Katrina along the Gulf Coast, well...another story. It was tough being away from here for so long. I got basic news, listened some to Boortz, Glenn Beck, and Rush, but if you want the real scoop, you come here! I got back Sunday, saw some of the threads, skimmed them, so I got a basic gist of it all, but didn't go any deeper. This whole development is disturbing on so many levels.
Charles, your work is appreciated, and your t-shirt got me some comments along the way, all of them good! To tell the truth, I was hoping for someone to confront me when I wore it on the Mall...lol

457 Geepers  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:34:52pm

Killgore Trout (#447),

The flag issue has been addressed ad nauseum. Go back and read through the relevant threads if you're still confused.

Didn't sound like he was "confused" a bit. In fact he linked to a fact-checking article that showed that that bit of "evidence" wasn't.

And "go back and read through the relevant threads" is classic dodge material.

458 jeppo[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:35:24pm
459 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:35:35pm

re: #455 Brazilian Neocon

re: #448 Thanos


re: #440 Brazilian Neocon


What about the claim, now totally proven wrong, of that photo with the white power flag and an alleged VB flag? That wasn't even a VB rally, that wasn't a VB flag

We discussed that one to death, the flag of Flanders was the one in front, the Vlaams flag was behind the white power sign. Look again.

Of course I read the whole discussion about the flag here, but you simply got it wrong. It's just another Flemish flag. Go to the link I provided and you will see what I mean. And you will know exactly, from people THERE in Flanders about that specific protest, btw, by a group that DESPISES the Vlaams Belang...

Not because you discussed ad nauseam here can you say that you have arrived at the right answer (brush up on your logic, please, this kind of fallacy is getting quite old here), just using images from Google and the VB site. Why not hear the people on the ground who witnessed that particular protest?

and if you follow the links on the page you will see that it's indisputably a VB rally. Why the agitprop? Why the lies BN?

460 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:38:08pm

Here are the links Yank in the EU posted, proving that the flag behind the White Power flag is indeed a Vlaams Belang flag:

[Link: www.vlaamsbelangniel.be...]

[Link: www.vbjantwerpen.org...]

[Link: www.vlaamsbelanggenteeklo.org...]

[Link: tienen.vlaamsbelangleuven.org...]

[Link: www.freewebs.com...]

[Link: liedekerke.vlaamsbelanghallevilvoorde.org...]

461 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:38:33pm

re: #453 Thanos

Brazilian -- just to make sure you know what you are talking about, please look at the white power flag. You will notice that you can see through a portion of it. NOTE in paricular the position and shape of the lion's tail behind the white power sign. Then compare that to any VB flag you care to find on the net. Come back and say it's not a VB flag after that and I will know you for a liar. It's indisputable.

I am no liar. Who are you to say that?

Have you READ the link I gave you? Yes, I can see through the white power sign, I am not blind... But can you prove it is VB's flag just using a couple of google images and jpegs from VB's site. Is that really proof enough for you? Have you asked people in Belgium who know the different styles of flags they have around? Have you heard from people who witnessed that very protest you are talking about, a protest that was organized by a group that is completely against VB to begin with? Indisputable, my *ss...

Go there, talk to some people on the ground, and come back here. If you still insist that is a VB flag, I will know you for a liar.

462 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:39:47pm

re: #456 bikermailman

I got a basic gist of it all, but didn't go any deeper.


Hmm..you may want to dig deeper because your gist isn't right if you think this is about trusting fjordman.

I'm serious.

Some of the things that have been brought up were real enlightening and the arguments as well as insults from fjordman greatly damaged his character.

I'm wary who I align myself with, I won't align myself with parties who have evidence to nazi ties...not one bit.

463 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:39:51pm

re: #457 Geepers

Killgore Trout (#447),

The flag issue has been addressed ad nauseum. Go back and read through the relevant threads if you're still confused.
Didn't sound like he was "confused" a bit. In fact he linked to a fact-checking article that showed that that bit of "evidence" wasn't.

And "go back and read through the relevant threads" is classic dodge material.

Sorry, Geepers. That "fact-checking article" was anything but.

Follow the links in my last comment, and compare for yourself.

464 archer[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:40:27pm
465 BeerForMyHorses  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:40:32pm

re: #455 Brazilian Neocon

It's like global warming.

466 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:41:13pm

Note how in that last link you see both NVS and VMO linked directly off a VB site.

467 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:42:09pm

re: #461 Brazilian Neocon

Have you READ the link I gave you? Yes, I can see through the white power sign, I am not blind... But can you prove it is VB's flag just using a couple of google images and jpegs from VB's site. Is that really proof enough for you? Have you asked people in Belgium who know the different styles of flags they have around? Have you heard from people who witnessed that very protest you are talking about, a protest that was organized by a group that is completely against VB to begin with?

Ahem. From Yank in the EU's post:

Some people were asking above about the issue of the Flemish flags. Well, I had a chance to discuss this more with people here; the conclusion was that today the all-black lion is the symbol of Flemish independence (as distinct from the official Flemish flag) and the VB is clearly the political party that uses it. There may well be historical meanings to the symbol that pre-date the VB and are apart from their use of it, but the VB is certainly identifiable in the political realm by that symbol now. This confirms what I personally saw at VB activities: they seldom use the modern stylized, official version for the cloth flags but rather the all black lion and they explain that it means an independent Flemish state, as opposed to the flag which looks very similar but with red markings.

468 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:43:19pm

re: #419 Fjordman


There is a strong anti-European undercurrent here. [...]

In the parallel universe inhabited by some posters here, although not all, there are three kinds of Europeans: 1. Nazis, Fascists and racists. 2. Those who died in two world wars. 3. Those who have left for the United States.

I can't help but respond to this. I disagree. Strongly. Yes, there is criticism of Europe, but ultimately (and I'm speaking as someone who has spent much of his adult life living in Germany and feels a connection to the Old World despite living in the New) the general mood here is one of concern, which sometimes falls into despair. I don't think there are that many here who want to see Europe fall to the infidel. The terror of Tours and Lepanto, of 1453, of 1529, and of 1683, runs very deep here. Not all of the posters may know of the details, but the specter of a Europe dominated by radical, militant Islam is a point of concern.

That said, there is also a serious concern about the spread of Antisemitism and the possibility that far-right elements could take advantage of the current situation to promote their own despicable agenda. Whether the parties named here are to be counted among these doubtful allies is the question we seek to answer. Is to ask the question in and of itself an attack on Europe? Hardly. I read Gates of Vienna regularly, but I think the question needs to be answered -- are all of the parties involved in the current wave of resistance to Islamification in Europe to be trusted? Are all of them above board?

Asking that question hardly constitutes a witch hunt. (spoke as an expert on witch hunting -- no kidding, it's my field of research)

469 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:43:54pm

Someone must have mobilized the pro-Vlaams Belang people to come over to LGF and obfuscate some more.

470 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:44:05pm

re: #461 Brazilian Neocon

Have you asked people in Belgium who know the different styles of flags they have around? Have you heard from people who witnessed that very protest you are talking about, a protest that was organized by a group that is completely against VB to begin with? Indisputable, my *ss...

Yes, I live in Flanders, have observed Vlaams Belang 'acties' and asked them specifically about the meaning of the flag. Because it does not contain the red markings that symbolize the union with Wallonia, the all black lion flag is the symbol of Flemish independence from Belgium, as the VB representatives explained. It is one of their distinct, identifying flags. As I pointed out clearly, the flag has a tradition that long pre-dates the VB, but now it is unmistakably one of the party's identifiers in the political domain, as Flemish people have explained repeatedly.

471 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:44:27pm

re: #465 BeerForMyHorses

No, it really isn't. I wanted it to be. But it is not.

472 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:45:15pm

Again, providing links with similar flags prove nothing...

Is anyone here a specialist in heraldics, enough to say that that lion is not simply from one of the many styles of Flemish flags but the one they use for the VB flag? I am not, and I doubt anyone here is.

Eyewitness accounts should be taken a little more seriously, don't you think? People there saw the protest, and attested that it was held by a group that would not be in the same neighborhood as VB, let alone stage a protest together, for god's sake!

Will you still stand by this sloppy association-by-google-images and ignore the facts on the ground, the witnesses, the people that LIVE there?

Listen, admitting a mistake is a noble thing... Insisting on one, covering your eyes like a little child throwing a tantrum, is just sad.

473 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:46:14pm

re: #472 Brazilian Neocon

Listen, admitting a mistake is a noble thing... Insisting on one, covering your eyes like a little child throwing a tantrum, is just sad.

Indeed.

474 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:46:21pm

re: #412 EC Marm

I can never forgive nor forget. Nor could I ever assume that I understand evil of that magnitude.

My 3 of my 4 kids had Holocaust studies in High School, as it had been mandated in NYS, but they already knew exactly what happened from us and from Hebrew School...their teacher, in High School taught it as what happened re the blacks in the USA, with about 1 sentence re the Holocaust..a number of parents complained. She was the Dept. head, and from what I remember, someone else was teaching it 6 years later when our youngest was in High School.

If every kid had a parent like you do...

475 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:46:58pm

re: #469 Charles

They seen to want to cling to disputing this flag. Why don't they ever discuss the party platform and it's full amnesty for nazi collaborators?

476 Lauraf  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:47:56pm

re: #419 Fjordman

This raises a question I have asked before. Americans say that you will never become involved in Europe again. Fine. But another question is, if native Europeans actually start fighting back against Islamization for real, whose side would Americans be on? Would you be on ours, or would you back the poor, Muslims victims of white European racism and xenophobia? Judging from the aggressive hostility and anti-European bigotry which is noticeable in many posts regarding this topic, I fear the latter answer.

I've been posting at LGF for years. There is a strong anti-European undercurrent here. I have rarely said much when confronted with it because I know the anti-American bias in much of Europe is usually worse, and I had no intention of creating more intra-Western rifts. However, I'd like to say a couple of things. I have read several times here the suggestion by some readers that Europeans are weak because the world wars, and immigration to the USA, finished off all the dynamic ones. In other words: European culture is weak because Europeans have "weak genes." This argument would have been

unthinkable

against any other ethnic group on the planet and would have been denounced as racist immediately. It is considered acceptable for one, and only one reason, and that is because those being tarred with it are white Europeans.

I have a hard time deciding what is the silliest part of this post, but the notion that "white Europeans" are an ethnic group absolutely creeps me out. And it is as absurd as the idea that Islam is a race.

477 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:48:09pm

re: #475 Sharmuta

re: #469 Charles

They seen to want to cling to disputing this flag. Why don't they ever discuss the party platform and it's full amnesty for nazi collaborators?

I don't see how they can overlook it and the pathetic interview that was given that Charles put up.

If I didn't have LGF for the other background, I'd have thought it still was a bad group to align with just based on those two.

478 least  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:49:25pm

Fjordman, this is a truth that has endured for millenia:

You become like those you hang out with.

You, Pamela, the Gates of Vienna folk need to be wise.

479 Salamantis  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:49:53pm

As far as the armbanded rat goes, I heartily recommend a far finer rodent: the graphic novel Maus. about what Jews, in particular, the author's father, endured in Nazi Germany, and the continuing pain suffered by the survivors of that abomination, and witnessed by their friends, families and relatives to this day. Another superb graphic novel is Persepolis, an autobiography about what a young girl endured when Khomeinist ideology devastated Iran.

As to Fjordman...

I find it quite revealing that, in his last post, Fjordman attacks LGF posters for thinking that there are no anti-jihadist alternatives to racist-tainted parties, then in the very next paragraph, appears to assert the very same thing. He also endeavors to play an anti-LGF race card of his own, completely ignoring the point that LGF is not distancing itself from these parties on the basis of race, but due to their malevolent ideologies, be they racist, communist, fascist, or Islamofascist. Thus the card is not there for him to play; it is a pure fabrication on his part. At the same time, he claims that the parties he defends are the only alternatives to 'real racists' (a surreptitious way of claiming that the parties he defends are free of the racist taint), thus failing to acknowledge the overwhelming preponderance of evidence posted in the threads over the last few days that his alternative parties are either THEMSELVES racist, or else have no compunction about courting racist members.

As far as his try at a tu quoque., you-do-it-too argument, there are few, if any, here who could stomach endorsing such hispanic supremacist groups as La Raza and Aztlan, so this red herring is a straw man, to mix metaphors - not to mention being false and mendacious.

I will continue to stand on the firm and solid ground of opposing all racist groups, whoever their particular scapegoats happen to be. To even contemplate crossing such a principle-betraying fjord as Fjordman advocates, and embracing groups whose principles I find so abhorrent to my own, is, quite frankly, a bridge too far for me, and, I am quite certain, too far for the overwhelming majority of decent people both here and elsewhere.

480 mean Gene  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:49:55pm

[Link: www.economist.com...]

Not going to comment.
Not going to do it.
Look at how ...nope, not going to.

481 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:50:18pm

re: #462 Highrise

re: #456 bikermailman


I got a basic gist of it all, but didn't go any deeper.

Hmm..you may want to dig deeper because your gist isn't right if you think this is about trusting fjordman.

I'm serious.

Some of the things that have been brought up were real enlightening and the arguments as well as insults from fjordman greatly damaged his character.

I'm wary who I align myself with, I won't align myself with parties who have evidence to nazi ties...not one bit.

I don't think it's about trusting fjordman, although I do think he has a different perspective on things, like their backs being against the wall, and maybe willing to look past 'unsavory elements' in their midst. I've noticed him being pretty testy the last couple of months, I don't know if it's something personal, something he's seeing on the ground, or whatever. This isn't to knock him, because he's done great work, and I love reading his essays. Overall, from what I've read on this, and what I know of Charles overall, he's doing his homework on this, and that makes all the difference in the world to me. I've read enough and followed enough of the links, withough following all the threads to be really leery of that whole scene. You ruin your whole position when you get in bed with dirtbags like what we're seeing. When the whole immigration thing was hot last spring, I was digging around, came across stormfront. I didn't have to stay for long to throw them out as allies.

482 konservo  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:50:24pm

Kudos! Charles, your dedication is most admirable and the contribution you are making by investigating these groups is invaluable. I'm glad to see you made it out of the "Cesspool" alive.

483 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:50:54pm

re: #472 Brazilian Neocon

Is anyone here a specialist in heraldics, enough to say that that lion is not simply from one of the many styles of Flemish flags but the one they use for the VB flag? I am not, and I doubt anyone here is.

Eyewitness accounts should be taken a little more seriously, don't you think? People there saw the protest, and attested that it was held by a group that would not be in the same neighborhood as VB, let alone stage a protest together, for god's sake!

Will you still stand by this sloppy association-by-google-images and ignore the facts on the ground, the witnesses, the people that LIVE there?

This is absolutely absurd. Now you are saying you need to be an expert on heraldics to explain why the Vlaams Belang uses that particular flag. Are you saying the images of the Vlaams Belang using this particular flag as a clear identifier is a forgery? Your reasoning is absolutely irrational.

And I have seen no links to anyone saying they saw that particular rally with the white power symbol - none.

484 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:51:09pm

re: #419 Fjordman

Bye for now. I'm leaving LGF for a while.

Don't slam the door on your way out; it's liable to hit you in the face if you return as soon as you have left every time you have said this the past week.

485 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:51:11pm

re: #454 Charles

It's amazing how much misinformation is being thrown at us, to obfuscate the issues.

See my post # 290 on that point above. I don't know if he of the glacial carved valleys is of that ilk, but ...

(no imperative meant, it's your blog; read it as a suggestion to others)

486 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:51:14pm

Will the Vlaams Belang apologists address this?

I now know where the cross originates from on his shelf... the Jongerenfront

487 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:53:09pm

re: #470 Yank in the EU

re: #461 Brazilian Neocon

Yes, I live in Flanders, have observed Vlaams Belang 'acties' and asked them specifically about the meaning of the flag. Because it does not contain the red markings that symbolize the union with Wallonia, the all black lion flag is the symbol of Flemish independence from Belgium, as the VB representatives explained. It is one of their distinct, identifying flags. As I pointed out clearly, the flag has a tradition that long pre-dates the VB, but now it is unmistakably one of the party's identifiers in the political domain, as Flemish people have explained repeatedly.

Yank,

Yes, it does symbolize Flemish independence. But only because VB uses a similar lion on their flag, does THAT prove that that particualr flag is a VB flag and NOT a flag used by any other movement in Belgium that spouses the ideal of Flemish independence?

Come on

VB uses the "black lion" +
I see a "black lion" flag
---
ergo = It must be a VB flag

Can't anybody see here the logical mistake here?

You can't be serious that your whole argument is based on this faulty assumption... Please tell me I'm wrong and you have further evidence...

What about the evidence provided in the linked article that this was a VJW rally, a "Solidarist" rally? What about their being very hostile towards VB? Do facts matter here at all?

488 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:53:17pm

re: #464 archer

See, here's the thing: I can only speak for myself, but I strongly doubt that LGF'ers in general support the stance that we should deport muslims simply for being muslims. I mean, "getting rid of muslims period" is kinda hardcore.

Shit, that's not even something that a Sweden Democrat would say openly.

489 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:53:38pm
I have read several times here the suggestion by some readers that Europeans are weak because the world wars, and immigration to the USA, finished off all the dynamic ones. In other words: European culture is weak because Europeans have "weak genes." This argument would have been unthinkable against any other ethnic group on the planet and would have been denounced as racist immediately. It is considered acceptable for one, and only one reason, and that is because those being tarred with it are white Europeans.

I reject this attempt at guilting Americans. I ain't siding with fascists!

490 Lauraf  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:53:42pm

re: #419 Fjordman


In the parallel universe inhabited by some posters here, although not all, there are three kinds of Europeans: 1. Nazis, Fascists and racists. 2. Those who died in two world wars. 3. Those who have left for the United States. If we're not dead and don't lave for the USA yet decide to fight back against Islamization then we have to be Nazis.

You forgot 4. Social democrats who are so attached to the nanny state that they have preferred massive immigration to giving up social benefits, regardless of the long-term consequences. And it is perhaps the pervasiveness of and willing dependence on the nanny state that has stunted the formation of a political right that is not imbued with "white ethnic nationalism".

491 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:54:19pm

re: #480 mean Gene

[Link: www.economist.com...]

Not going to comment.
Not going to do it.
Look at how ...nope, not going to.

I'll comment:

Mr De Wever went on to declare:

"Antwerp did not organise the deportation of the Jews, it was the victim of Nazi occupation...Those who were in power at the time had to take tricky decisions in difficult times. I don't find it very courageous to stigmatise them now." He was not finished, adding that the Israeli state's occupation of the Palestinian territories involves "techniques which remind me of that dark period of history."

492 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:54:28pm

re: #481 bikermailman

I don't think it's about trusting fjordman, although I do think he has a different perspective on things

Ok, you mentioned that you hoped he was right about these groups and that threw me off because things have surfaced to say otherwise. I'm glad you are doing some reading.

Different perspective, hmm...I am not sure I can agree that it is just different, it's suicidal to the mission of anti jihad. He's had a few posts that were alarming to me is all along with a few others.

493 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:55:05pm

I have reams of this stuff

The Nationalistische Studenten Verbond (NSV) is an association of extreme right university students founded in 1976. A number of the VB’s leaders began their political activity in the NSV, including current leaders Philip Dewinter and Franck Van Hecke.
The NSV’s emblem is the Celtic cross, adopted by the neo-Nazis. After the law against denial of the Holocaust was passed on 23 March 1995, the NJSV (the high-school branch of the NSV) distributed a “Revisionism is no crime!” sticker. The last demonstration held by NSV – in March 2001 in Antwerp – was supported by the VB.

494 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:57:15pm

I have so much, it's hard to lay out just how to present it all logically comprehensively and yet with brevity for maximum impact.

There is no defense for the Vlaams Belang.

495 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:57:23pm

re: #487 Brazilian Neocon

You can't be serious that your whole argument is based on this faulty assumption... Please tell me I'm wrong and you have further evidence...

Come on. You've got to be kidding.

496 metoothen  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:57:32pm

re: #370 jeppo

Why do so many conservative writers and bloggers (our bosom buddies only a week or so ago) continue to support the VB? Not to mention the nearly one million Belgians who voted for them in the June 2007 elections.

It's because they are the only political party in Belgium (and one of the very few in Europe) that are pro-American, pro-Israeli, pro-free enterprise, anti-EU, anti-Islamist, anti-immigration and anti-abortion. In other words they are conservatives.

The rest of the Belgian political spectrum ranges from socialist-lite to crypto-communist to proto-dhimmi. For all the diligent research you fine folks have done on the VB, how about focusing on some other political options that anti-jihadist Belgians might explore. Good luck with that, there are none.

The Vlaams Belang , warts and all, are the last line of defense between a friendly, Western, Judeo-Christian ally and the coming Islamic Republic of al-Belgium.


This may be true.

Or not.

And your points up to this point are well taken.

But then there's this:

And that's why they deserve the support of conservative anti-jihadists everywhere.

This, however, requires an entirely different calculus.

It's what you didn't say, or attribute to VB that is important.

Something along the lines of, "In addition to..."

And therein lies the problem.

It seems that the intersection of the White Power anti-jihadists (who by the way, are sometimes pro-Khomeinists, ala David Duke) is similar in some way to the Moonbats, or whoeverthehell they are, that have become the Ron Paulians.

There is something going on.

I'm just not sure what.

And praise is due to Charles for highlighting these stories.

Really.

Just sayin'.

497 Geepers  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:57:41pm

Charles (#463),

I wasn't referring to the flag, but the rally, sorry for the confusion there.

From the link in #440.

“Exhibit 2: a White Power flag at a Vlaams Belang rally this month. The other flags are Vlaams Belang.”

Odd that they can’t identify it better. Well, I can. This rally is actually a VJW (Youth of West Flanders) rally in Brugge, a town of 120,000 in the West of Flanders. See the 5th picture of
[Link: nieuw-solidarisme.blogspot.com...] ,
on which you can see the same background (red umbrellas below a green awning) as in the LGF picture. Note at the top of the page the flag-in-a-circle — it is the same “white power” flag

So was that picture from a Vlaams Belang rally or a VJW rally?

And a point of pedantic concern only really, since changing any one point of evidence isn't going to alter the tapestry.

498 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:58:00pm

re: #487 Brazilian Neocon

What about the party's platform granting amnesty to nazi collaborators?

499 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:58:34pm

re: #494 BabbaZee

I have so much, it's hard to lay out just how to present it all logically comprehensively and yet with brevity for maximum impact.

There is no defense for the Vlaams Belang.

I have much more as well. I've posted only what I consider the most compelling evidence.

500 jeppo[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:58:41pm
501 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 5:59:38pm

re: #487 Brazilian Neocon

As has been explained countless times the VB version has a more simplified styling and has black claws and black tongue.

502 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:00:02pm
If this is the VB's idea of mobilization, then they're going nowhere fast.

That's reassuring, actually.

503 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:00:17pm

re: #459 Thanos

Take a look in his little green football...remarkably few posts in the time since registration. He and beer for my horses seem to be quite similar, also in those who they ping.

504 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:00:20pm

re: #476 Lauraf

I have a hard time deciding what is the silliest part of this post, but the notion that "white Europeans" are an ethnic group absolutely creeps me out. And it is as absurd as the idea that Islam is a race.


I'm inclined to agree with you, but look at it in another light: White Europeans, and by extension, white americans, and Christians, are being told that we are racist, hateful, evil, and the cause of all that is bad in the world. It is being crammed down our throat (remember the thread on U of Delaware?), and the left is trying to completely wipe us out, so we can be subjugated. After all, we deserve it, right?

505 VinceP1974  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:00:39pm

Another day.. another report on what we've found on google today..

And then the followers all patting themselves on the back about how non-racist they are.

My God .. this is getting old.

We get it.. YOU ARE SUPERIOR.. THE LEADER AND HIS FOLLOWERS ARE NOT RACIST.

DOWN DOWN WITH EVIL EUROPE

Inshallah

506 mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:01:03pm

I never held poster Fjordman in much regard. My impression was that his scholarly research started at a foregone conclusion and went backwards landing at the same point each time: All Muslims are bad people and should be deported in order to preserve "European" culture. I never could understand why so many people fawned over that swill.

507 gunner  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:01:23pm

maybe more learned ones than I, or for that matter better internet gurus can riddle me this. who then are the ones in the counter-jihad movement that we should pay attention to? as I see it, many euros are grabbing at anything they can to stem the tide. for some making a deal with the devil right now and paying for it later is ok with them. it seems that in some places its all they have. i find that from what I am reading about all this is pretty disturbing in itself. I for one want to know who's beside me in the firing line and will I have to watch my back when it's over.

508 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:01:30pm

re: #487 Brazilian Neocon

VB uses the "black lion" +
I see a "black lion" flag
---
ergo = It must be a VB flag

No, I have stated repeatedly that the flag long pre-dates the Vlaams Belang, but the Vlaams Belang themselves and Flemish people explain clearly that this is one of their identifying flags. Cyclists use the flag also to support their members, but that does not cancel the fact that the VB is identifiable by that flag. I have seen rallies by the VB and the only place you do see the new, stylized flag is on a few banners and on the materials (which I still have). However, the all black lion is prominently displayed and it is their view, not mine, that that is one of their particular flags. The fact is that unofficial flags have meaning only insofar as people give them these meanings, and I do believe the various people in Flanders I have asked about this.

Can't anybody see here the logical mistake here?

You can't be serious that your whole argument is based on this faulty assumption... Please tell me I'm wrong and you have further evidence...

The entire mistake is in your misreading. No one has claimed that stupid syllogism.

509 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:01:45pm

re: #493 BabbaZee

brilliant!

510 konservo  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:02:08pm

re: #486 BabbaZee

Will the Vlaams Belang apologists address this?

I now know where the cross originates from on his shelf... the Jongerenfront

The quote at the bottom of that page, regarding vocabulary, shows how perverse Dewinter's thinking really is.

511 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:03:41pm

I do not underestimate or disrespect the terrible situation that Fjordman and others in Europe are in.

That being said , to make excuses for the Vlaams Belang is not acceptable to me and it insults my intelligence.

I could accept it if people told me:
I have my eyes wide open about it

and either ~
I sympathize
or
I choose to ignore it for reasons of expediency.

Neither option do I agree with
but at least I can respect an honest stance.

That choice will ultimately be between them and GOD
not them and me
anyway

and I am at peace with His judgements

But to try to convince me that Vlaams Belang are just righteous folk like me at this point?

Faggetaboutit as we say in the Bronx.

512 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:03:59pm

re: #506 mich-again


you are a wise man.

513 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:04:29pm

re: #495 Charles

re: #487 Brazilian Neocon


You can't be serious that your whole argument is based on this faulty assumption... Please tell me I'm wrong and you have further evidence...

Come on. You've got to be kidding.


I am not kidding, I am damn serious... and I am very sad that you and others here would use this kind of faulty logic in your investigations... It kinda makes me doubt some of the other "evidence" you unearthed...

What about the VJW rally? Do'nt they also believe in Flemish independence and, therefore, could use the same "black lion" motif in their signs?

I have seem some pretty damning stuff, and I have seen some shoddy evidence here... Because of the latter, I am a little weary to go along and be merrily in conformance with what the majority of the Lizard army seems to believe here. I have got where I am now - on the frontlines of the War on Terror, both in academia and in my daily job, by being skeptical and cautious, and no matter how I love this blog, I won't throw all that away...

514 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:04:32pm

re: #497 Geepers

OK, I looked at that link, and all I see that supports their case are the green awnings.

It's the same town square. That's it?

Totally unconvincing.

And totally beside the point, in any case.

515 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:04:34pm

re: #499 Charles

I'm certain you must. It's endless.

516 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:04:48pm

re: #500 jeppo

#469 Charles

"Someone must have mobilized the pro-Vlaams Belang people to come over to LGF and obfuscate some more."

LOL! With Fjordman gone, that leaves me and, I guess, Brazilian Neocon and Archer. We're outnumbered 100 to 1! If this is the VB's idea of mobilization, then they're going nowhere fast.

We can only hope.

517 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:05:07pm

re: #506 mich-again

Fjordman presented a lot of ideas that I thought were well-researched and persuasive. Particularly in the area of gender politics and liberalism. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

518 jeppo[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:06:43pm
519 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:06:58pm

re: #513 Brazilian Neocon

I have seem some pretty damning stuff, and I have seen some shoddy evidence here... Because of the latter, I am a little weary to go along and be merrily in conformance with what the majority of the Lizard army seems to believe here.

So- you have no problem with the party's platform? You're just going to base this on a flag because it's a point you can contend?

520 Render  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:09:10pm

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

===

As for the Minutemen appearing on the Cesspool radio show, and accepting David Dukes public support.

[Link: theponderingamerican.blogspot.com...]

WND's Jerome Corsi is under the same gun for appearing on that list (pay attention TFK, infiltrators are already inside the wire).

In fact, the only name on that list that gets a pass is that of Hal Moore, who may very well have had no idea of whom and what he was dealing with at the time.

I said this once already, I'll say it again...

If the name Charles "Icarus" Johnson had shown up on that list, I wouldn't have returned here from that websearch.

===

The neo-nazi's worldwide are discovering that their Islamofascist allies will turn on them next, just as the neo-nazi's fully intended to do to the Islamofascist if they were in the power seat. They will find no refuge in this synagogue.

REB,
R

521 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:09:19pm

re: #510 konservo

Tonight I'm gonna party like it's 1939.

522 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:09:47pm

re: #516 Charles

I doubt green awnings are unique to that square. I've see green awnings all over the world.

523 Lauraf  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:10:06pm

re: #504 bikermailman

re: #476 Lauraf


I have a hard time deciding what is the silliest part of this post, but the notion that "white Europeans" are an ethnic group absolutely creeps me out. And it is as absurd as the idea that Islam is a race.

I'm inclined to agree with you, but look at it in another light: White Europeans, and by extension, white americans, and Christians, are being told that we are racist, hateful, evil, and the cause of all that is bad in the world. It is being crammed down our throat (remember the thread on U of Delaware?), and the left is trying to completely wipe us out, so we can be subjugated. After all, we deserve it, right?

The left is trying to "wipe out" white Christians? That sounds like something a white power ranger would say. The left is proselytising big time, and outrageously, but they are not commiting genocide.

524 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:11:10pm

re: #513 Brazilian Neocon

It kinda makes me doubt some of the other "evidence" you unearthed..

You admit to being willful- you refuse to even look at other evidence because it's from Charles. Well- what about the damned platform?!

525 ContraJihadi  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:11:21pm

re: #441 J.S.

re: #419 Fjordman

"Weak genes?" heh, that's a new one. I haven't read any comments about Europeans having "weak genes..." Must have missed it..

Perhaps he is referring to the fact that some of us have wondered in print when/whether Europeans will grow a pair.

We may have been a little unkind. On the other hand, I think most of us would agree that a frighteningly large portion of the European anti-jihadi assertiveness we have seen lately exudes a suspiciously nazi-ish musk.

526 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:11:28pm
527 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:11:49pm

Back to my coin-in-the-air metaphor regarding Europe: I have two major worries if they do get medieval on the muslims in their midst. 1) What happens to the Jews 2) It is the rallying point Ahneedajihad has been looking for to use nukes and bring the chaos to bring the mahdi back.

528 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:12:06pm

re: #522 Killgore Trout

re: #516 Charles

I doubt green awnings are unique to that square. I've see green awnings all over the world.

I looked at those pictures carefully, and I don't see the connection to the picture I posted. If someone does, please tell me what I'm missing.

529 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:12:10pm

re: #493 BabbaZee

I have reams of this stuff

The Nationalistische Studenten Verbond (NSV) is an association of extreme right university students founded in 1976. A number of the VB’s leaders began their political activity in the NSV, including current leaders Philip Dewinter and Franck Van Hecke.
The NSV’s emblem is the Celtic cross, adopted by the neo-Nazis. After the law against denial of the Holocaust was passed on 23 March 1995, the NJSV (the high-school branch of the NSV) distributed a “Revisionism is no crime!” sticker. The last demonstration held by NSV – in March 2001 in Antwerp – was supported by the VB.

Actually you can see current NSV march photos now on the Vlaams Belang sites.

530 Yank in the EU  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:13:44pm

re: #497 Geepers

Well, my point is simply this: the Vlaams Belang representatives explain that they are known by the flag. Flemish people explain that the flag is one of the identifiers and exactly why that is so in terms of politics. I have personally seen that flag at VB rallies.

About this evidence of the VJW, that's new to me and I know little about it. If it can be proven that the white power flag was used on that day, then great -- it should be taken into account and noted. That, of course, does not prove false the claim that the Vlaams Belang is identified by that, which is my only claim and that seems true.

531 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:14:03pm

re: #518 jeppo

Don't make me post the REAMS of Stormfront US and worldwide pages on Vlaams Belang .

Because I can.

532 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:14:32pm

re: #529 Thanos

mmhmm

533 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:15:04pm

re: #527 bikermailman

It is the rallying point Ahneedajihad has been looking for to use nukes and bring the chaos to bring the mahdi back.

I didn't realize he needed an excuse.

534 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:15:39pm

re: #503 NY Nana

re: #459 Thanos

Take a look in his little green football...remarkably few posts in the time since registration. He and beer for my horses seem to be quite similar, also in those who they ping.

Nana

I do not post much because I am busy. I am happy to be a lurker here, and I read this blog way before I got the chance to register.

About my dinging people up and down, what is the point of the whole rating system? I thought Charles said we should ding up comments that we liked or agreed and ding down those we don't. That's exactly what I did. I dinged down specially some of Sharmuta's comments because they were filled with the kind of vitriol and paranoia I thought I only could find among the KosKidz. If you are trying to use my dinging/pinging behavior against me, that is just sad...

I have nothing to do with Vlaams Belang. I live in Israel, where I am studying my ass off now so that I can do my work better - I work with counterterrorism analysis (one of the reasons I did not post much here - I've been really busy the last few years, you know?) at the government. So to come here and say I am a stooge, planted here by VB to "defend" their side is just too much paranoia for me. Lizards shouldn't be paranoid and use ad hominems like that, it's not befitting of the greatness of this community.

It's sad how groupthink and paranoia are flourishing in this place that once was an oasis of rationality in the middle of moonbatish kookiness...

No one has addressed my concerns about that photo being taken at a rally organized by a RIVAL of Vlaams Belang and about that flag being used by countless other organizations in the region... I guess the truth is not in some people's interests here...

535 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:15:47pm

re: #523 Lauraf

All the rhetoric that comes from them is how Western Culture is evil, Chrisitanity is evil, whites are racist. That sort of stuff is flooding the colleges, and they are putting that crap in the kid's cartoons even. Socialists can't take over a society that is grounded with a solid culture. That culture has to be eroded and eliminated, so it can be replaced with their own version.

536 jaunte  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:16:20pm

Any dutch translators out there?
Universiteit Gent. A dissertation on Vlaams Blok communications strategy; 'the evolution of positioning'...

[Link: www.blokwatch.be...]
Bosseman, Vanessa (2001): De communicatiestrategie van het Vlaams Blok : evolutie van positionering
(182 pages, 14Mb pdf)

537 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:16:51pm

re: #528 Charles

I've searched the pic looking for the right combination of buildings, umbrellas and awnings and I don't see a match. I also don't see the guy with the White Power flag anywhere. If someone had these things I'm sure they would have posted it by now.

538 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:17:51pm

re: #534 Brazilian Neocon

No one has addressed my concerns about that photo being taken at a rally organized by a RIVAL of Vlaams Belang and about that flag being used by countless other organizations in the region

I'm still waiting for you to quit clinging to this flag and address the party's platform.

539 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:18:01pm

re: #534 Brazilian Neocon

I live in Israel, where I am studying my ass off now so that I can do my work better - I work with counterterrorism analysis

God be with you.

540 least  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:18:24pm

re: #511 BabbaZee

Faggetaboutit as we say in the Bronx.

Shouldn't you say, "fahgedabowdit"? OR "fugeddaboudit"?

PS: About your post - Amen!

541 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:18:35pm

re: #533 Sharmuta

re: #527 bikermailman


It is the rallying point Ahneedajihad has been looking for to use nukes and bring the chaos to bring the mahdi back.

I didn't realize he needed an excuse.

Well, ya gotta gin one up for the U N, right?

542 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:19:19pm

Will the Vlaams Belang apologists address why the podcast blogger Thomas Paine was pressured not to release his interview with DeWinter?

543 mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:19:35pm

Strange how the deterioration of Europe's traditional identity coincides with her inhabitants' abandonment of Religion over the last several decades.

544 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:19:46pm

re: #528 Charles

...

Actually, I do see a possible resemblance, Charles. Compare the building right behind the white power flag in your picture, with the far left side of the fifth picture. I'm not certain though, the placement of the red umbrellas seems a bit off, but maybe that's because of the angles of the photographs? More red umbrellas could be obscured by the white power flag maybe?

...

I can't tell for sure, but I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think it's possible.

545 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:20:02pm

re: #541 bikermailman

Well, ya gotta gin one up for the U N, right?

No- only America is denounced when it doesn't go to the un.

546 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:20:15pm

re: #518 jeppo

The real racists (David Duke, Stormfront) have clearly aligned themselves with the Islamists. That's the difference between them and the VB and SD.


So since Filip Dewinter appears on David Dukes' show, is he aligned with the Islamists?

547 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:21:46pm

re: #545 Sharmuta

re: #541 bikermailman


Well, ya gotta gin one up for the U N, right?

No- only America is denounced when it doesn't go to the un.

Oh, yeah...my bad.

548 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:22:36pm

re: #518 jeppo

The real racists (David Duke, Stormfront) have clearly aligned themselves with the Islamists.

I see lots of links on Stormfront and David Duke to VB. I haven't found any links to Islamists. Do you have any evidence to back that up?

549 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:23:13pm

The flag is their shield of plausible deniability- as long as they refuse to handle the platform- ignoring all posts alluding to it, they can continue to make excuses for themselves and carry on with their smears on Charles and LGF.

550 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:23:43pm

re: #543 mich-again

Strange how the deterioration of Europe's traditional identity coincides with her inhabitants' abandonment of Religion over the last several decades.

Bingo

551 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:23:49pm

re: #547 bikermailman

I'm sorry- that should be America and Israel.

552 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:24:00pm

re: #539 mama winger

re: #534 Brazilian Neocon


I live in Israel, where I am studying my ass off now so that I can do my work better - I work with counterterrorism analysis

God be with you.

And with you too, Mama. Jerusalem is a beautiful city, visit us someday!

I'm doing my part in this war. How many here are at least trying to do the same, as far as their capabilities go? I mean, in real life, not behind a computer screen?

Those that have a knack for languages - go learn Farsi and Arabic, it is not that difficult. Those that are young and strong, joing the army or government agencies like the CIA or DHS, or law enforcement... We are at war and we need people willing to defend our values.

I am not a stooge here, I am not an enemy...

553 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:24:09pm

re: #534 Brazilian Neocon

I guess the truth is not in some people's interests here...

Indeed.

554 mean Gene  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:24:19pm

re: #546 Thanos
I'm not Jeppo, but I'd hazard a guess.
VB is isolationist as are Pat B. and Ron P.
All of them will back off as islamists run roughshod elsewhere on earth.
Sort of the deal where they get killed last.
One wonders when they might awaken, if the killing isn't inside their own towns and cities.

555 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:25:14pm

re: #542 BabbaZee

Will the Vlaams Belang apologists address why the podcast blogger Thomas Paine was pressured not to release his interview with DeWinter?


No, Fjordman and Pamela used that thread to speak for the deceased Oriana saying that she would have loved VB. None of them have addressed the topic of this thread either. They're arguing about the flags.

556 Josephine  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:25:35pm

re: #419 Fjordman

"The only thing Charles will achieve with these posts is to delay the formation of anti-Islamization efforts in Europe and thus drive people further into the hands of the few extremist groups that do exist."

Isn't that what some people say when Robert Spencer writes about the Islamic justification for jihad?

Now my head is spinning.

557 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:25:42pm

re: #552 Brazilian Neocon

Jerusalem is a beautiful city, visit us someday!

It is one of my last remaining goals in life.

The other is to get some grandchildren :)

558 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:25:44pm

re: #552 Brazilian Neocon

I am not a stooge here, I am not an enemy...

Then why not discuss the platform?! That flag is spit in the ocean, man!

559 Geepers  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:26:48pm

BabbaZee (#486),

Some interesting stuff there. Thanks.

560 Render  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:26:56pm

re: #518 jeppo

They, the "real nazi's" have also, just as clearly aligned themselves with their fellow travelers of VB and SD. As far back as the mid '90's.

Like Ron Paul, neither VB, nor SD have made any real effort at repudiating that alliance.

GOOD
RIDDANCE,
R

561 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:26:57pm

re: #549 Sharmuta

The flag is their shield of plausible deniability- as long as they refuse to handle the platform- ignoring all posts alluding to it, they can continue to make excuses for themselves and carry on with their smears on Charles and LGF.

Who's "they", my dear (Ibn) Sharmuta?

I am no apologist, I do not belong nor do I have anything to do with VB. I despise racism and nazism. I am not Jewish, but I have know quite a few Holocaust survivors, so do not lump me on this odious "they" of yours!

562 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:27:16pm

re: #544 Truumax

re: #528 Charles

...

Actually, I do see a possible resemblance, Charles. Compare the building right behind the white power flag in your picture, with the far left side of the fifth picture. I'm not certain though, the placement of the red umbrellas seems a bit off, but maybe that's because of the angles of the photographs? More red umbrellas could be obscured by the white power flag maybe?

...

I can't tell for sure, but I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think it's possible.

OK, I'm looking at it, and it's possible.

But it's far from the convincing refutation some want us to believe it is.

I've been in dozens of similar European town squares.

563 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:27:28pm

We have the white power cross rat in the VB youth publication
We have Filip Dewinter's own words (indeed he would deport portugeuse as well as Turks...)
We have the VB website itself
We have the manifestos of VB and SD
We have the VB video of the white power cross on Filip's Bookshelf
We know he was arrested demonstrating against the Anne Frank Museum
We know he wants amnesty for Nazi Collaborators
We have the associations with NSV and VMO, and support for both

That alone is enough to convince me, the other stuff just firms the argument.

564 konservo  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:27:41pm

re: #518 jeppo

The real racists (David Duke, Stormfront) have clearly aligned themselves with the Islamists. That's the difference between them and the VB and SD.

So what? If, as you say, that is truly the only difference, then that just means VB and SD are racists and fascists who have not aligned themselves with Islamists. I don't think anyone really doubts that they are against Islamofascism, the point is that they are also racists and, in fact, fascist themselves.

565 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:28:05pm

re: #552 Brazilian Neocon

Those that have a knack for languages - go learn Farsi and Arabic, it is not that difficult. Those that are young and strong, join the army or government agencies like the CIA or DHS, or law enforcement... We are at war and we need people willing to defend our values.

Yes. I could not agree more.

And no - you are not the enemy. We may disagree on many points here, but I know you are not my enemy.

566 Geepers  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:29:29pm

Brazilian Neocon (#487),

You can't be serious that your whole argument is based on this faulty assumption...

Um, yeah, no.

567 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:29:29pm

re: #559 Geepers


Thanks.
I dug really deep here, it was too important not too. I'll post a finished piece hopefully by Friday.
I haven't even looked at the SD yet. So on them I have nothing to say yet.

568 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:30:41pm

re: #554 mean Gene

re: #546 Thanos
I'm not Jeppo, but I'd hazard a guess.
VB is isolationist as are Pat B. and Ron P.
All of them will back off as islamists run roughshod elsewhere on earth.
Sort of the deal where they get killed last.
One wonders when they might awaken, if the killing isn't inside their own towns and cities.

Yes, and as you've seen in Fjordman's past posts, and the point I've argued with him most, is that he wants to be defensive/tribal isolationist too. He rips on the war in Iraq when he gets chance to.
If we are going to have a fight with the Islamofascists, then here and now is the time.

569 Lauraf  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:32:00pm

re: #535 bikermailman

re: #523 Lauraf

All the rhetoric that comes from them is how Western Culture is evil, Chrisitanity is evil, whites are racist. That sort of stuff is flooding the colleges, and they are putting that crap in the kid's cartoons even. Socialists can't take over a society that is grounded with a solid culture. That culture has to be eroded and eliminated, so it can be replaced with their own version.

I know (believe me, I know), but the problem as I see it is that Fjordman is talking about a struggle between races, not a struggle over values. And he loses me right there. Does he want to get rid of all Muslims, but not other non-Christian religious groups, or does he want to get rid of all Muslims plus everyone who isn't "white"? And how does he define "white"? Does he consider Jews to be "white Europeans"? Even if they are Sephardic? Are Italians and Spaniards "white"? What about people of mixed heritage?

570 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:32:10pm

Enough of this, those not convinced won't be convinced by reason. Moving upthread.

571 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:32:52pm

re: #565 mama winger

re: #552 Brazilian Neocon


Those that have a knack for languages - go learn Farsi and Arabic, it is not that difficult. Those that are young and strong, join the army or government agencies like the CIA or DHS, or law enforcement... We are at war and we need people willing to defend our values.

Yes. I could not agree more.

And no - you are not the enemy. We may disagree on many points here, but I know you are not my enemy.


God Bless you, Mama... It's comforting too see that there are still some decent people around. Yeah, we'll agree to disagree here, but enough with these ad hominems attacks on good people like Fjordman et al.

It's pretty late here and I have an Arabic test tomorrow morning. Good night everyone.

572 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:33:12pm

re: #561 Brazilian Neocon

I am no apologist, I do not belong nor do I have anything to do with VB. I despise racism and nazism. I am not Jewish, but I have know quite a few Holocaust survivors, so do not lump me on this odious "they" of yours!

I didn't call anyone an apologist- don't put words in my mouth.

The fact you know Holocaust survivors doesn't change the fact you are clinging to this "disputed" flag and ignoring the party's platform, so yeah- I will lump you in with the "they" to which I was speaking. If you can't figure out the context of my "they", it's not my problem. I can't fix your comprehension issue.

Enough with the misdirection. What about the party's platform? Explain that away.

573 mama winger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:33:20pm

re: #570 Thanos

Moving upthread.

Upthread, you get Phelps.

Uff da :)

574 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:34:10pm

Amazing how when the heat turns up- they start bailing.

575 zmdavid  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:34:40pm

re: #440 Brazilian Neocon
I get a 404 error when I click on the link

2. Facts Part 2: Belgium: Filip Dewinter and Vlaams Belang (audio and print interviews) and country report, to provide specific background to the Flemish Independence movement and the history of the party, as well as its current policies and actions.


in your Center for Vigilant Freedom link labeled "flags" in #440.
(I can see part 4 about the flags ok, but I wanted to check out the interview)

576 J.S.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:36:20pm

There are so many, many questions which have been posed to the Vlaams Belang supporters (which have gone unanswered), it's ridiculous. How do they intend to accomplish their mass deportations? How come there's a Holocaust Denier, Raes, still in the Party if they claim they've "cleaned up?" (ditto for the "change in name only" tactic -- from the V. blok to Belang), etc.

O/T I heard that the "master-mind" of the Madrid train bombings was acquitted on all counts. (Although he's not free -- he's serving a prison term in Italy...The 3 Spanish judges refused to believe the wire-tap evidence in which the accused confessed and bragged about his crimes -- the judges doubted the translations.) I just do not "get" what's going on in Europe...Apparently, from other reports, there are many, many "far right-wing" Spaniards who are still insisting that the Madrid Bombings had nothing to do with Islamists -- it was the Basque Separatists. (they're deeply into a Basque separatist conspiracy theory). (What a mess!). It's as if they're all only semi-sane...Is it the water?

577 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:36:37pm

re: #563 Thanos

Tip of the iceberg, in fact.

578 allahakchew  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:36:48pm

re: #546 Thanos

re: #518 jeppo


The real racists (David Duke, Stormfront) have clearly aligned themselves with the Islamists. That's the difference between them and the VB and SD.

So since Filip Dewinter appears on David Dukes' show, is he aligned with the Islamists?

Bingo

579 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:38:36pm

brazilian neo-con-

blockquote>I have know quite a few Holocaust survivors

Seriously- what does this have to do with anything?! How does that alter your stated positions on this matter? I find it a little offensive you would use Holocaust survivors as a shield to protect yourself from criticism. That's really base.

580 mean Gene  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:39:06pm

re: #568 Thanos
And I can kind of see that a response like that (isolatioism) is natural.
Look at how many Americans cocooned themselves after 9-11-01.
To this day I meet people who are only now just beginning to come back out...and some of them (way too many, I feel) are medicated.
So, I can understand it as an immediate response to islamization when all around them are unassimilated muslims and they've been educated to put down their own culture.
But it is not a plan that can succeed.
And therein lies the problem.
Why should the far-sighted ones who are willing to take the battle to the enemy be aligning themselves with the isolationists who will be quick to yell "Peace!" (They remind me of the ones the Apostle Paul wrote of at 1 Thessalonians 5:3.)

581 Geepers  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:39:48pm

Sharmuta (#574),

Hey, I was cleaning my coffee maker. ;-)

582 Promethea  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:40:32pm

re: #294 buzzsawmonkey

At the risk of stepping on a few toes, I'd like to use this controversy to address a question which often arises here.

Lots of people, over the past several months, have asked why so many Jews blind themselves to the antisemitism currently emanating from the Left. The question is usually answered by emphasizing a number of historical facts; that the Left, since the time that the grandparents or great-grandparents of most of the Jews posting here left Eastern Europe, the Left seemed to be the Jews' ally against the brutal and repressive regime of the Czar, and against the institutionalized prejudices of the other old regimes of Europe. Moving closer in time, the Left was the moving force behind the unions that protected those grandparents and great-grandparents when they came here; was an ally against the Nazis; was the force behind the New Deal programs which held many families together during the Depression--and was a voice against antisemitism in the US at a time when it was much more open, and some of it, alas, emanated from religious sources.

Why do I bring this up now? Because aside from whatever residual loyalty Jews have towards the Left, the fear of the reactionary forces which the Left appeared to combat in the past is even more deeply ingrained, and contributes to their inertia-based reluctance to discard the Left, fickle and treacherous "ally" though it is.

The feelings of betrayal and attendant caution which I see here towards those formerly considered unimpeachable friends and allies should make people more readily able to understand how ingrained caution and fear of betrayal can become. When one has been brought up to regard people of a certain political stripe as hostile, even if their rhetoric is otherwise acceptable one approaches the prospect of allying with them, and abandoning one's former allies, with immense trepidation, always fearful that that which made them unacceptable originally will rear its ugly head. Jews who may be finding the Leftist straitjacket an increasingly uncomfortable fit are nonetheless trepidatious about accepting new allies at face value, for fear that some of the sentiments which have caused dismay here will suddenly rear their heads.

That so many here have rejected the notion of an alliance of convenience with less than savory types who nonetheless appear to hold similar positions shows me that the Jews tentatively entertaining the thought of re-evaluating their political stance should be encouraged to do so. They should recognize the tremendous stand of principle being taken here, and should also realize that, few as their numbers may be, their numbers are needed.

In the meantime, if this whole unfortunate shakeout helps give some people a visceral understanding of why some Jews hesitate to abandon a Left which has long since abandoned them, that will be one good result.

Excellent analysis.

Jews find it hard to leave the Democrats and the liberal camp because of their historical memories. My Dad, for example, told me stories of pogroms organized by priests at Eastertime--part of the Easter celebration in the "old country." This is the mental baggage that most U.S. Jews are dragging around--like a heavy suitcase with no wheels.

Times have changed, and Jews need to get up to speed with the new world they live in. They also need to go after the "self-hating" and antisemitic Jews who drag them down.

Thanks goodness for people like Dennis Prager and Michael Medved--and of course, Charles Johnson, who may help Jews finally escape from their mental ghetto. Even in Israel this mental ghetto still exists.

583 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:40:46pm

re: #505 VinceP1974

I was not a party to any of that, challenge my evidence.

584 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:42:49pm

This time I've gone through issues no 11/12 of November/December 1997
to no 3 of March 1998 of the monthly neo-Nazi pamphlet 'Nation &
Europa' (13,000 subscription, 15,000 printed issues).

Until 1990 this journal's title was 'Nation Europa', it was founded
already in 1951 by former SS Sturmbannfuehrer Arthur Ehrhardt und
Herbert Boehme. According to investigations of the British Secret
Service in connection with the Naumann affair (1949-1953), the
publication 'Nation Europa' must be seen as a direct result of the
past 1945 efforts of European neo-Fascists together with leading SS
men to build up a European network of neo-Fascists. Money comes from the Swiss neo-Nazi Gaston-Armand Amaudruz, from Maurice Bardeche, Jean Bauvard as well as from the French bankers Albertini and Guy Lemonier.

The necessary know-how is provided by former Reichspressechef Helmut Suendermann (chief press speaker of the Nazi regime), followed by Gert Sudholt, who holds a huge syndicate of publishing companies, and associated businesses.

After Arthur Ehrhard deceased in 1971, Peter Dehoust has been the
chief editor since then. There are a few other names I would like to
mention in that connection, because some of them are playing quite a
vital role in the German neo-Nazi movement up to this day.

Editors: Adolf von Thadden (NPD), Harald Neubauer (NPD, DVU, REP,
Deutsche Liga fuer Volk und Heimat, Michael Kuehnen said that
Neubauer also used to be a member of the NSDAP/AO of Lauck);

Share holders: Peter Dehoust 57%, Hans Epprecht 1%, Karl Gueltig 9%, Klausdieter Ludwig 6%, Lieselotte Dold 5%, Holle Grimm 1%, Heimgard Dehoust 12%, Almut Spaeth 1%, Nation Europa Verlags GmbH 6%, Nation Europa-Freunde e.V. 2%.

Authors: Felix Buck (!), Franz Schoenhuber, Helmut Schroecke, Karl
Richter, Emil Schlee, Guenter Deckert, Alain de Benoist, Bernhard
Willms, Gerd-Klaus Kaltenbrunner, Hans-Dietrich Sander, Hans-Ulrich
Rudel, Armin Mohler, Winfried von Oven, Rolf Kosiek, Henning
Eichberg, Bruno Megret, Yvan Blot, Karl Dillen*), Willy Freson, Juergen Hatzenbichler, Jean-Marie Le Pen, Andreas Moelzer.

*) the founder of Vlaams Blok and Vlaams Belang

please, read the names carefully. All of them are either nazis, neonazis or neofascists.

585 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:43:51pm

sorry, the link:


[Link: www.nizkor.org...]

586 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:44:01pm

re: #569 Lauraf

re: #535 bikermailman


re: #523 Lauraf

All the rhetoric that comes from them is how Western Culture is evil, Chrisitanity is evil, whites are racist. That sort of stuff is flooding the colleges, and they are putting that crap in the kid's cartoons even. Socialists can't take over a society that is grounded with a solid culture. That culture has to be eroded and eliminated, so it can be replaced with their own version.


I know (believe me, I know), but the problem as I see it is that Fjordman is talking about a struggle between races, not a struggle over values. And he loses me right there. Does he want to get rid of all Muslims, but not other non-Christian religious groups, or does he want to get rid of all Muslims plus everyone who isn't "white"? And how does he define "white"? Does he consider Jews to be "white Europeans"? Even if they are Sephardic? Are Italians and Spaniards "white"? What about people of mixed heritage?

Which gets back to my question (not neccesarily regarding fjordman, but Europe overall) of if Europe does decide to get radical on the muslims instead of rolling over, what happens to the Jews, and anyone else not 'acceptable'. I don't have much hope for Europe either way, I'm afraid. Either they succumb to the muslims, or they get their backs against the wall, then revert to some very ugly older tendencies, in which the muslims aren't the only ones to get caught up in the mayhem.

587 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:44:09pm

re: #581 Geepers

Pay no attention to that party platform behind the black lion curtain!

588 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:44:30pm

If that sounds fatalistic, so be it. I calls em likes I sees em.

589 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:44:32pm

re: #583 BabbaZee

re: #505 VinceP1974

I was not a party to any of that, challenge my evidence.

Extending it:

I say that to all the Vlamms supporters.

I was not a party to any derision of any of you during this thing.

I took no ones word for anything.

I was furthermore not a party to any other brand of hooplewanky crap that everyone whines about that I could care less about.

Can any of you challenge my evidence?

590 nyc redneck  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:44:58pm

i feel so disheartened by all this infighting. i agree w/ charles that these groups are nazis or nazi sympathizers. i also feel that the european anti-jihadists know this as well, yet side w/ these fascists and take them on as allies against what they feel is an even bigger threat. how bad is the islamofascist threat in europe. bad enough to make good people make a deal w/ the devil? that's what i want to know abt. do they feel like they are on such thin ice, this is their only way to survive. if so, it is worse than we all know.

591 mean Gene  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:45:30pm

re: #585 zuckerlilly
I love that site!
I use the fallacies of logic pages often.

592 konservo  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:46:10pm

BabbaZee,

Did you ever find out what was being said on the Nederland & Vlaanderen of Stormfront? I'm sure the forums there will provide even more damning evidence.

593 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:46:15pm

re: #562 Charles

Oh, I wouldn't say that anything has been disproved either. A possibility is not the same as a confirmation.

Either way, it's a completely moot point for them to make. See, while fighting so furiously to prove that that particular flag was not present at a VB rally, they are implicitly agreeing that the symbol on the flag is a white power symbol - that's why they are distancing themselves from it.

But then they're just digging their own hole, because by doing so they lose the argument they have been trying to use to explain that same symbol in DeWinter's home, ie: that it's not necessarily a white power symbol.

594 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:46:28pm

re: #590 nyc redneck

It IS worse than we all know.

595 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:46:40pm

re: #590 nyc redneck

do they feel like they are on such thin ice, this is their only way to survive.

The political opportunists have convinced them of such.

596 stvip  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:46:45pm

re: #561 Brazilian Neocon

Wait.
You declare you work in counter-terrorism analysis for the government? And you're not Jewish? Not Israeli either - Brazilian?
I'm not calling you a liar, but this seems very odd.

Since when do the governmental agencies employ people who weren't in the IDF? (except the Mossad, who could use foreign agents, but even hinting at the possibly at a public online forum would be ridiculously against regulations and common sense)

597 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:46:47pm

re: #592 konservo

Yes I did.

598 Geepers  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:47:00pm

Sharmuta (#587),

Pay no attention to that party platform behind the black lion curtain!

Classic.

599 Render  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:49:00pm

re: #596 stvip

If I could + that a million times I would do so.

ONE
WILL
DO,
R

600 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:50:07pm

re: #593 Truumax

"stupid point" would be better than "moot point", now that I think about it.

601 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:50:09pm

re: #593 Truumax

Damn fine point.

602 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:50:45pm

re: #589 BabbaZee

re: #583 BabbaZee


re: #505 VinceP1974

I was not a party to any of that, challenge my evidence.


Extending it:

I say that to all the Vlamms supporters.

I was not a party to any derision of any of you during this thing.

I took no ones word for anything.

I was furthermore not a party to any other brand of hooplewanky crap that everyone whines about that I could care less about.

Can any of you challenge my evidence?

YES! Where were you on the night of the 5th?

603 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:51:07pm

re: #552 Brazilian Neocon

re: #539 mama winger

re: #534 Brazilian Neocon

I live in Israel, where I am studying my ass off now so that I can do my work better - I work with counterterrorism analysis

God be with you.
And with you too, Mama. Jerusalem is a beautiful city, visit us someday!

I'm doing my part in this war. How many here are at least trying to do the same, as far as their capabilities go? I mean, in real life, not behind a computer screen?

Those that have a knack for languages - go learn Farsi and Arabic, it is not that difficult. Those that are young and strong, joing the army or government agencies like the CIA or DHS, or law enforcement... We are at war and we need people willing to defend our values.

I am not a stooge here, I am not an enemy...

We visited summer '06. Loved it.

604 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:51:12pm

re: #598 Geepers

I have my moments. ;)

605 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:51:19pm

The worst lies you tell are to yourself

606 Syrah  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:51:23pm

When the moon-bats call us Fascists and Nazis, whether in person or in print, the insult does not hurt us because we know it is not true

If we allow Fascist and Nazis into our ranks, the insult will kill us.

607 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:51:35pm

re: #596 stvip

re: #561 Brazilian Neocon

Wait.
You declare you work in counter-terrorism analysis for the government? And you're not Jewish? Not Israeli either - Brazilian?
I'm not calling you a liar, but this seems very odd.

Since when do the governmental agencies employ people who weren't in the IDF? (except the Mossad, who could use foreign agents, but even hinting at the possibly at a public online forum would be ridiculously against regulations and common sense)

I do not work in Israel, I am just studying here towards an advanced degree in the area as well as working on my Arabic and Farsi.

Good night, now I really need to get some sleep...

608 konservo  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:51:47pm

re: #597 BabbaZee

re: #592 konservo

Yes I did.

Ah, I see. So if this is just the tip, the ice-burg is huge, I take it?

609 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:52:53pm
610 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:53:13pm

re: #608 konservo

staggering.

611 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:54:37pm

re: #584 zuckerlilly

Karl Dillen, Founder VB also translated "Beyond Nuremberg" into Dutch. It was a screed against the holocaust, the Nuremberg trials, and against the Marshall plan. The French author called for strong tribal nations under a dictators, since that works best in Europe. He also was a strong proponent of "cultural homogenity". If you go back to last night's threads I linked to an english translation of the PDF at a hate site, but it's really a horror to read.

The same thought process -- that democracy and liberty can't possibly work in a tribal society -- is being used against Iraq right now.

612 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:54:53pm

re: #606 Syrah

That's the whole point some here fail to grasp.

613 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:55:11pm

re: #609 BabbaZee

re: #602 bikermailman

LOL, thanks I needed a laugh

Not a problem...happens all the time...I walk into a room, and people start laughing out loud!
/rimshot

614 PETN Sandwich  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:55:45pm

Strong correlation found between the neo-nazi-ish VB and cycling enthusiasts - Lion of Flanders?

The next Prime Minister of Belgium sporting the VB flag?

Unofficial flag of Flanders is the VB flag?

.
.
.

Nonetheless, VB has still a neo-nazi skeleton or two in closet and maybe a couple in the kitchen too.

615 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:56:18pm

re: #608 konservo

I believe I saw Charles call it such.

/He may have even used the F-word.

616 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:56:34pm

Wow! It's almost 4 AM in Jerusalem now.

Israel changes the clock between Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur, IIRC.

Totally OT, but I would love to see an accounting of just how much energy was saved by making DST even longer this year, in the USA and Canada, who joined in as they really had no choice.

617 Lauraf  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:57:57pm

re: #586 bikermailman

Which gets back to my question (not neccesarily regarding fjordman, but Europe overall) of if Europe does decide to get radical on the muslims instead of rolling over, what happens to the Jews, and anyone else not 'acceptable'. I don't have much hope for Europe either way, I'm afraid. Either they succumb to the muslims, or they get their backs against the wall, then revert to some very ugly older tendencies, in which the muslims aren't the only ones to get caught up in the mayhem.

Yeah, I don't have much hope for Europe, either. Less now than before this all came to light, actually.

618 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 6:59:53pm

re: #611 Thanos

Karl Dillen, Founder VB also translated "Beyond Nuremberg" into Dutch. It was a screed against the holocaust, the Nuremberg trials, and against the Marshall plan.

I know, I posted it the day before yesterday ;-) but thanks for the hint to the file, I'll search for it and read it.

619 eric_odessit  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:00:07pm

Well, I was one of those who were willing to give those European right-wingers the benefit of the doubt. I thought that whatever was in the past might have changed. But this is now. I was wrong. We should stay away from these guys.
What I still can't figure out is this: people like David Duke aligned themselves with the Islamists already. But these guys seem to be opposed to the Islamists, despite their Nazi views. Why is that? Have they decided that the Islamists are a bigger threat for them?
Eric.

620 mondoreb  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:00:17pm

Eloquently stated, Charles.

BTW, thanks for the heads-up on Frosty Woolridge. We'd seen a piece by him at the Denver Post yesterday that was making some amazing claims; we were looking into it...but after seeing the above, I'll have to take a lot longer, harder look to find some believable documentation to his assertions. That was on tomorrow's to-do list...maybe we can cross one off...

Neither Ginn nor I had ever heard of the guy.

mighta dodged a bullet...

621 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:00:18pm

re: #593 Truumax

re: #562 Charles

Oh, I wouldn't say that anything has been disproved either. A possibility is not the same as a confirmation.

Either way, it's a completely moot point for them to make. See, while fighting so furiously to prove that that particular flag was not present at a VB rally, they are implicitly agreeing that the symbol on the flag is a white power symbol - that's why they are distancing themselves from it.

But then they're just digging their own hole, because by doing so they lose the argument they have been trying to use to explain that same symbol in DeWinter's home, ie: that it's not necessarily a white power symbol.

I think you get the win.

622 Lauraf  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:02:08pm

re: #616 NY Nana

All its meant here (in Canada) is that I have to turn lights on in the morning AND earlier in the late afternoon/early evening. I don't expect any drop in my hydro bill! Maybe it makes sense in the southern US, but the further north you go the sillier it is - the shortening hours of daylight aren't affected by changing the clocks!

623 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:02:09pm

re: #607 Brazilian Neocon

I see how it is. You lurk long enough to see that shot taken at you, and come back to clarify yourself to save some credibility, but you cannot answer one single question on the party platform.

You are being willfully "blind".

624 konservo  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:02:42pm

re: #610 BabbaZee

re: #615 Sharmuta

Jeez... I'm sick enough of these guys as it is, but if there's more filth I guess it's better to find out about it.

625 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:03:00pm

re: #614 PETN Sandwich

Ugh, how many times does this have to be said. The VB uses a simplified styling on their lion.

626 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:03:04pm

re: #617 Lauraf

Either way it happens, the Jews in Europe are in for a bumpy ride. I'd like to say that we'll take them in, but we shut our doors to them the last time around. Besides, nowadays, our political parties are too busy letting all of Latin America come in to worry about true refugees.

627 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:05:18pm

Sad. Contrast this unforgettable poem, in Flanders Field...about the Battle of Ypres, Belgium to today's Belgium. I still remember every word.

IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow

Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Perhaps it should be required reading in today's Belgium. It seems that those who Charles mentions have indeed broken faith.

628 Lauraf  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:05:23pm

re: #626 bikermailman

re: #617 Lauraf

Either way it happens, the Jews in Europe are in for a bumpy ride. I'd like to say that we'll take them in, but we shut our doors to them the last time around. Besides, nowadays, our political parties are too busy letting all of Latin America come in to worry about true refugees.

Thank G-d there is Israel, assuming Iran doesn't take it out.

629 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:05:37pm

re: #617 Lauraf

They like Israel, the "New Right" Nationalist Lumpenazis... they feel solidarity with Jewish nationalism and like to use it as a convenient mask for their own nationalistic goals...

It is also cover
so they can be seen as reformed of their Jew hating "past"
Also on the surface it appears to put them in opposition to the anti semitic hard left thereby gaining the useful idiocy of prominent Jews as well as Christian Zionists.

It's already working .

In any event, they consider the few remaining Diaspora Jews a small problem, after they take power they will politely ask everyone to move to Israel.
Or else.

630 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:06:10pm

re: #614 PETN Sandwich

Strong correlation found between the neo-nazi-ish VB and cycling enthusiasts - Lion of Flanders?

The next Prime Minister of Belgium sporting the VB flag?

Unofficial flag of Flanders is the VB flag?

.
.
.

Nonetheless, VB has still a neo-nazi skeleton or two in closet and maybe a couple in the kitchen too.

Just to nail this down firmly, the flag the party VB has printed, and which is seen in massive numbers at their demonstrations has a particular shape in the crook at the tip of the tail. You can go to youtube right now, or the VB site, and you will see that particular flag predominant at their demonstrations. It's not like the flags you linked, though similar. It's stylized, and not the standard flag of folks just wishing indendence.

631 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:07:07pm

re: #623 Sharmuta

It's also very disingenuous.

632 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:07:22pm

re: #620 mondoreb

thats one bad MFer hidin' under that folksy Burl Ives tune kinda name

633 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:08:12pm

re: #619 eric_odessit

Mazel tov! Thank you for having the decency to post an honest apology. You are one of the very few good guys in this.

634 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:09:21pm

re: #623 Sharmuta

re: #607 Brazilian Neocon

I see how it is. You lurk long enough to see that shot taken at you, and come back to clarify yourself to save some credibility, but you cannot answer one single question on the party platform.

You are being willfully "blind".

It's called insomnia, my dear Ibn Sharmuta

I have said before, but you preferred to ignore me. I have some serious reservations about the VB - I have been expressing them to Pamela and others involved in the other "side" of this blog war (not on their site, but on private emails). Yes, that video of the cross is bad for DeWinter (I'd like to hear from him on that). I am seriously looking into damning evidences like that. I have not seen much what you mean by their platform exactly, though, but if you refer just to mention of the word "white" in that speech, that's not enough for me. In none of their official documents did I see evidences of this so-called racism mentioned here.

I said, the jury is still out for me...

But I am sick of your rude 'tude here, I will not answer any of your messages any more.

635 Lauraf  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:09:31pm

re: #629 BabbaZee

re: #617 Lauraf

They like Israel, the "New Right" Nationalist Lumpenazis... they feel solidarity with Jewish nationalism and like to use it as a convenient mask for their own nationalistic goals...

It is also cover
so they can be seen as reformed of their Jew hating "past"
Also on the surface it appears to put them in opposition to the anti semitic hard left thereby gaining the useful idiocy of prominent Jews as well as Christian Zionists.

It's already working .

In any event, they consider the few remaining Diaspora Jews a small problem, after they take power they will politely ask everyone to move to Israel.
Or else.

Mmmm, and ones like Duke also like Iran. No doubt subscribing to the Hezbollah notion that gathering all the world's Jews in Israel will make it easier to kill them all.

Just when this is getting fun, I have to go. Long day tomorrow that has to start very early (in the dark!). I hope to have time to catch up with you all tomorrow night.

636 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:09:46pm

re: #621 Thanos

I'm just the little hatchling that could, ain't I?

637 stvip  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:09:53pm

re: #607 Brazilian Neocon


Jerusalem is a beautiful city, visit us someday!

...

I do not work in Israel, I am just studying here towards an advanced degree in the area as well as working on my Arabic and Farsi.

You're working for an "advanced degree" in Jerusalem?
Where?
How come your lecturers aren't on strike? (the reason why I myself can accomodate my defective circadian clock and stay up all night) And what Israeli academic institutions have exams at the beginning of the Israeli academic year?

638 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:10:12pm
why are so many counter-jihad bloggers willing to cut DeWinter, Vanhecke, and the Vlaams Belang so much slack, despite all these indications that something isn’t right?

Because they are on the fallacious, slippery slope, immature line of reasoning called "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

639 USBeast  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:10:31pm

It's time for the Ugly Smelly Beast to play Devil's Advocate.

We in America, while we are aware of the threat of Islam, are by no means as in danger of losing our cultural identity as Europe is.

I have read a good deal of Fjordman's work, both here and elsewhere. I have found it informative and factual.

Fjordman is watching Europe descend into Hell. He is, quite understandably, concerned. Given his circumstances, I would be too.

I believe that Fjordman's recent posts here were emotional responses to what he must regard as defections from the solid block of support he thought he had in support of his cause. To have those he regarded as allies attack others he regarded as allies must have been a shock.

His house is on fire. If my house was on fire I would not worry about the ideology of anyone throwing water on it, and I would kick the ass of anyone who tried to stop someone throwing water on it.

After the fire was out, I would do all I could to make sure no new fires were set.

I hope Fjordman would agree.

640 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:12:21pm

re: #628 Lauraf

re: #626 bikermailman


re: #617 Lauraf

Either way it happens, the Jews in Europe are in for a bumpy ride. I'd like to say that we'll take them in, but we shut our doors to them the last time around. Besides, nowadays, our political parties are too busy letting all of Latin America come in to worry about true refugees.


Thank G-d there is Israel, assuming Iran doesn't take it out.

Or their own PM doesn't hand it all over to the Palis.

641 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:12:46pm

re: #634 Brazilian Neocon

re: #623 Sharmuta


re: #607 Brazilian Neocon

I see how it is. You lurk long enough to see that shot taken at you, and come back to clarify yourself to save some credibility, but you cannot answer one single question on the party platform.

You are being willfully "blind".


It's called insomnia, my dear Ibn Sharmuta

I have said before, but you preferred to ignore me. I have some serious reservations about the VB - I have been expressing them to Pamela and others involved in the other "side" of this blog war (not on their site, but on private emails). Yes, that video of the cross is bad for DeWinter (I'd like to hear from him on that). I am seriously looking into damning evidences like that. I have not seen much what you mean by their platform exactly, though, but if you refer just to mention of the word "white" in that speech, that's not enough for me. In none of their official documents did I see evidences of this so-called racism mentioned here.

I said, the jury is still out for me...

But I am sick of your rude 'tude here, I will not answer any of your messages any more.

Again BN, If it's the flag that will convince you I ask you to look again at the stylized tail of the flag in question, compare it to the flag most used by VB -- VB's flag is stylized, it is not the standard flag of Flanders. Look at the length of the bent over part of the tail that hooks down much longer than the standard flag, like a scorpion's stinger.

642 BabbaZee  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:13:44pm

My Friends, the Vlaams Beland is in the process of "Branding".

Dig.

And with that I bid you good night

643 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:14:20pm

Night, babba! miss you!

644 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:14:31pm

re: #634 Brazilian Neocon

The party platform grants full amnesty to nazi collaborators.

The jury is out for you because you want them to be.

And your little ad hominem talking points are weak. Hasn't she updated them for you yet?

645 Sunlight  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:15:00pm

re: #637 stvip

re: #607 Brazilian Neocon


Jerusalem is a beautiful city, visit us someday!
...
I do not work in Israel, I am just studying here towards an advanced degree in the area as well as working on my Arabic and Farsi.
You're working for an "advanced degree" in Jerusalem?
Where?
How come your lecturers aren't on strike? (the reason why I myself can accomodate my defective circadian clock and stay up all night) And what Israeli academic institutions have exams at the beginning of the Israeli academic year?

Yeah, what about that strike. Can't be good. We have friends there with high schoolers at home while they work. Not good.

646 jeppo[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:15:48pm
647 Roger  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:16:12pm

re: #419 Fjordman

if native Europeans actually start fighting back against Islamization for real, whose side would Americans be on?

See Bosnian War

648 Brazilian Neocon  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:17:00pm

re: #637 stvip

re: #607 Brazilian Neocon


Jerusalem is a beautiful city, visit us someday!

...

I do not work in Israel, I am just studying here towards an advanced degree in the area as well as working on my Arabic and Farsi.

You're working for an "advanced degree" in Jerusalem?
Where?
How come your lecturers aren't on strike? (the reason why I myself can accomodate my defective circadian clock and stay up all night) And what Israeli academic institutions have exams at the beginning of the Israeli academic year?


Not that I need to justify myself to you...

1) not all professors are on strike, only those with tenure actually. I take some classes on a department of the university that has not stopped at all. I will not go further because I really want to keep some things of my private life private

2) yes, some classes do have exams throughout the academic year, specially language classes. I have an Arabic exam and a little Hebrew quiz tomorrow...

Is that enough for you, pal?

I had some time off today so I slept during the day, so now cannot get myself to fall asleep... I will try some more now. Laila tov...

649 Pvt Bin Jammin  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:17:09pm

re: #627 NY Nana
I, too, remember every word.

As to your earlier video post. I will never forget. I'm Christian but I did a term paper on the holocaust in school.

650 JHW  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:18:31pm

I haven`t had the time to follow this as closely as I`d like , real life demands and all, but I spent several hours last night checking out the Cesspool radio show . Cesspool is putting it mildly. They are loaded with thinly veiled racists, 911 truthers, Ron Paul-bots , holocaust deniers,secessionists and Anti-semites of varying persuasions. The show describes itself as "populist". One tactic outfits like this use is to have the occasional, non-controversial and legitimate guest to lend them credibility.My reason for going into this swamp is they had Gen. Hal Moore as a guest (telephone interview) and I`ve never heard any politics concerning him and I was wondering how the hell he would be associated with this bunch. Thankfully he only talked about was only about his military service. I sincerely hope that it was ignorance of this outfit that let him grant an interview.Much, much more on that site, I posted late last night #673 Vlaams Belang thread.

Years ago I found out the hard way about that Institute of Historical Review, I ordered a copy of Gen. Guderian`s memoirs advertised in "Military History" magazine, a publication on most large news stands in
the US. Very non-controversial, run of the mill.That got me on the mailing list of that scumbag outfit IHR, which I`d never heard of. Holocaust denial up the ying-yang, Neo-Nazi crap, Lincoln was a traitorous monster type books, racist junk, on and on. I had a mail war with them telling them never to mail any of there garbage again, and a few strategy talks with the local postmaster on stopping them. There is a lesson here I guess on how groups like this insinuate themselves and it could probably go for political conferences too, a lesson to watch be careful of the motives of any bunch you don`t thoroughly know.

Lastly I don`t see how the situation is so dire we have to align ourselves automatically with anyone who claims to be on our side without thoroughly vetting them. The war on terror is not in the same stage as the last hour at the Alamo.

651 zmdavid  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:20:51pm

re: #638 blue_like_jazz

why are so many counter-jihad bloggers willing to cut DeWinter, Vanhecke, and the Vlaams Belang so much slack, despite all these indications that something isn’t right?

Because they are on the fallacious, slippery slope, immature line of reasoning called "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."


I think the questionable parties might be seen as victims of oppression as well (based on the link in #440).
Their free speech might have been suppressed. Suppressing their speech probably did them a favor. It made them sympathetic victims, and it kept their ideology from getting out.

652 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:20:57pm

re: #639 USBeast

We in America, while we are aware of the threat of Islam, are by no means as in danger of losing our cultural identity as Europe is.

That's right. Neither is Europe though. They complain of 500,000 Turks and Kurds (who are by no means allied) in their country of 10,000 million Flemish.

Yes, their culture is under assault as ours is, but they pick a stupid strategy, that of race, to defend it. That's fighting on the enemie's turf of choice, confined to using the tactics of the enemy. They don't want a solution, they want the problem because it furthers the cause they've had since 1840 of an independent Flanders. That's their goal, everything else is the colors of the day.

653 Syrah  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:21:14pm

re: #619 eric_odessit

What I still can't figure out is this: people like David Duke aligned themselves with the Islamists already. But these guys seem to be opposed to the Islamists, despite their Nazi views. Why is that? Have they decided that the Islamists are a bigger threat for them?

They are opportunists.

They see a lack of strength and leadership at the political level in the Anti-Jihad movement and are moving in to exploit it.

The left of center parties in Europe are allergic to the Anti-Jihad movement so many people are left without a party that addresses their concerns about the Islamization of Europe.

If the Fascist and Nazis can get in on the ground floor on the inevitable "push-back" against the islamization of Europe, they will have a real shot at winning seats in European Parliments

We must not let them succeed at this.

If they do, the Anti-Jihadist movement will be totally delegitimized in the states. We will lose everything.

654 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:21:56pm

re: #647 Roger

re: #419 Fjordman


if native Europeans actually start fighting back against Islamization for real, whose side would Americans be on?

See Bosnian War

I'm thinking it will depend on who's in office.

655 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:22:27pm

re: #650 JHW

One tactic outfits like this use is to have the occasional, non-controversial and legitimate guest to lend them credibility.

Ding ding ding! Another way for groups such as these to gain credibility is to latch themselves onto a credible movement.

656 Promethea  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:22:35pm

re: #428 Truumax

re: #419 Fjordman

What you don't seem to get, is that what is considered "racially homogenous nationalism" in Europe is simply considered "racism" in America. And, might I add: Rightfully so.

As I said on a previous thread, many American families are multi-racial. This will only increase as American-born children whose parents came from various parts of the world meet and marry.

For example, on my street there are quite a few American-born children of parents from India. Some of them are bound to meet and marry American-born children of European ancestry.

"White power" is simply NOT an option here in America. (Even "La Raza," a racist term, refers to the mixed race people of Mexico.)

657 Charles  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:23:54pm

re: #650 JHW

I haven`t had the time to follow this as closely as I`d like , real life demands and all, but I spent several hours last night checking out the Cesspool radio show . Cesspool is putting it mildly. They are loaded with thinly veiled racists, 911 truthers, Ron Paul-bots , holocaust deniers,secessionists and Anti-semites of varying persuasions. The show describes itself as "populist". One tactic outfits like this use is to have the occasional, non-controversial and legitimate guest to lend them credibility.My reason for going into this swamp is they had Gen. Hal Moore as a guest (telephone interview) and I`ve never heard any politics concerning him and I was wondering how the hell he would be associated with this bunch. Thankfully he only talked about was only about his military service. I sincerely hope that it was ignorance of this outfit that let him grant an interview.Much, much more on that site, I posted late last night #673 Vlaams Belang thread.

Years ago I found out the hard way about that Institute of Historical Review, I ordered a copy of Gen. Guderian`s memoirs advertised in "Military History" magazine, a publication on most large news stands in
the US. Very non-controversial, run of the mill.That got me on the mailing list of that scumbag outfit IHR, which I`d never heard of. Holocaust denial up the ying-yang, Neo-Nazi crap, Lincoln was a traitorous monster type books, racist junk, on and on. I had a mail war with them telling them never to mail any of there garbage again, and a few strategy talks with the local postmaster on stopping them. There is a lesson here I guess on how groups like this insinuate themselves and it could probably go for political conferences too, a lesson to watch be careful of the motives of any bunch you don`t thoroughly know.

Lastly I don`t see how the situation is so dire we have to align ourselves automatically with anyone who claims to be on our side without thoroughly vetting them. The war on terror is not in the same stage as the last hour at the Alamo.

Great post, JHW. It's not that dire, and those who refuse to face the truth are going to regret it -- because they're alienating the vast majority of sane people who will run away from any hint of Nazism or white supremacy.

658 stvip  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:24:35pm

re: #648 Brazilian Neocon

1) not all professors are on strike, only those with tenure actually.

The "martzim bkhirim", to be precise - I don't think all of them are tenured.


2) yes, some classes do have exams throughout the academic year, specially language classes.

Still, an exam (not quiz) two weeks into the semester?

Is that enough for you, pal?

Suspicious, but plausible.

659 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:24:38pm

re: #653 Syrah

Great post.

660 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:25:09pm

I don't get bemoaning the loss of one's "culture" because there are too many foreigners around. What does that really mean? How do other people come to your Country and take away your culture, unless of course the thing you refer to as your "culture" depends on them not being there.

661 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:25:12pm

re: #622 Lauraf

IIRC, Canada did not want to go along with it.

The biggest problem with the time change was that children were put in danger going to school in the AM, because it was still dark in a lot of states. The reason here (after groups from the left and right tried to have it not change so early) was given that it would save so much energy.

Since that was the reason given, I feel that we should be shown exactly how much was saved. Here is a current article. The actual study that President Bush used was from the energy crisis in the 1970's.

662 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:25:14pm

re: #611 Thanos


cant find the link :-(

663 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:28:02pm

re: #637 stvip

Stvip

Great post! Thank you. Are you trying to confuse him with facts?

664 stvip  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:28:10pm

re: #645 Sunlight

Yeah, what about that strike. Can't be good. We have friends there with high schoolers at home while they work. Not good.

It's going to get ugly.
In Academia, the junior faculty is considering joining the senior, and the students are also scheduled to begin striking pending implementation of the Shokhat Committee recommendations.

665 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:28:10pm

re: #662 zuckerlilly
Ok let me dig again, bb in a minute

666 Syrah  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:33:44pm

re: #659 Sharmuta

We are in a very bad spot.

Our former allies, such as Fjordman, have the potential to do the Anti-Jihad movement more damage than the Jihadist.

If he and those that are of like mind give the Fascist and the Nazis enough cover to win elections, we will be destroyed. All of us. Even Fjordman.

The game has barely begun and we are already on the precipice of disaster.

667 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:34:35pm

It's the frog and the scorpion story, folks... these white supremacists might help your cause out, but eventually THEY WILL TURN ON YOU because their NATURE is to do so.

First, they want to be anti-brown people. When that immediate threat diminishes and they have more mainstream credibility, then who do they turn on? The _ _ _ .

They are steamrollers of hate and WILL NOT STOP once the Islamofascist movement has abated. They will simply move on to the next group that they believe oppresses them. The _ _ _ .

668 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:36:19pm
669 hazzyday  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:36:21pm

My take on this.

I still have more reading to do. European parties who have roots in white power and neo-nazism should not be surprised to find Americans shunning them. If they are worried about LGF they haven't encountered the bigger picture yet. I bought a new Atlas.

I think we could stand a moderate Muslim up next to Filip Dewinter and find they pretty much have the same goals when pressed.

If we ever get into a bigger WoT, we will have Communist allies that are nation states.

If VB and SD want to keep their roots and want to join the WoT they need to get into power on their own and prove via policies that they are who they said they would be. Else they are better off disbanding and starting over.

I have no problems with Fjordman. He is passionate about his views and carries his frustration better than most people. He should personalize his battles less. You can't go around saying you know better because you are there. Even if it's true. That is saying "ME I am Important" It's the wrong type of authoritative appeal. Europe is different than America in some ways. We find strength in all people even though we have had our problems. That was not the case in most of Europe.

The nazi collaboration issue seems to be just a red herring. It looks like the collaborators where pardoned already. How many of them are left anyway? And wouldn't they have been tried and convicted if they were the bad type of collaborators and stayed in Europe? Someone that was 16 in 1945 would be 78 now. I discount this issue as an argument against VB.

Expo.se ... no faith in them. They need to be triple checked.

Smart leaders carrying around symbols that the neo-nazis use? That says it all right there to me.

They need a track record. From here it looks like if you shake them hard enough little SS toys will drop out of their pockets and land all over the floor. Public exposure of them will make the rottener ones slouch away. VB will lose effectiveness if they have these poor roots and get a lot of publicity.

Association is not always causation, but here the circumstantial evidence looks like a Perry Mason conviction.

For any neo-nazi reading this stuff. Society is always going to marginalize you because of misplaced hate. You are better off becoming a scientologist or an evangelical. Those are more postive outlets. If you feel yourself hating. Go to church. A regular one.

670 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:36:22pm

Ok here we go

Nuremberg or The Promised Land by Maurice Bardèche, as translated by Karel Dillen, Founder VB

We must recall to the ferrymen of the clouds88 that the sovereignty of cities, and all that that entails: the right to join with others and the right to banish, the primacy of discipline in the State, the absolute duty of obedience to those who are in the service of the sovereign, are the beams which support and which have always supported all nations. We must require the solemn recognition of this first truth which is the basis
for all power: that he who obeys the prince and the edicts of the prince cannot be prosecuted, for there is no State without that, there is no government without that. We should not [264] be afraid of strong States. And we do not have the right to require that the structure of these States be democratic (in the sense that the word is used in London or Washington) if these States prefer to live under other laws. If the unity of the Occident can be accomplished only around a block of authoritarian socialist States, is not this solution better than war and occupation?
671 zygazint  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:37:52pm

It's just a plain shame that man - with all his advancements- still hasn't learned how to 'use his words'. (Other mothers out there in cyberspace might understand what I'm saying here) and now this [Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

672 bikermailman  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:37:54pm

re: #660 Mich-again

I don't get bemoaning the loss of one's "culture" because there are too many foreigners around. What does that really mean? How do other people come to your Country and take away your culture, unless of course the thing you refer to as your "culture" depends on them not being there.

It's not just the presence of foreigners that takes your culture away. We here in America are proof of that. It's the Left's eroding of Western, European culture, while bringing in a culture that has as its main goal the supremacy over all others at the same time that has them spooked. They have watched their own elected legislatures disappear effectively to the power of unelected beurocrats in Brussells, who hand down edicts from on high that are antithetical to everything that they've ever known.

673 Frank_Mtl  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:40:15pm

re: #173 Killgore Trout

re: #159 Truumax

I have a little trick that gives me great pleasure; If someone is ranting about Jews or blacks (whatever) I usually let them go on and even encourage them a little. After they've dug themselves in good and deep I invent a little white lie that my mother is Jewish or my stepfather is black. Usually the bigot in question will make an excuse and flee the situation. If you're lucky they will stick around and start to backpeddle.

Your little "trick" made me smile. I used it myself quite a few times, and yes, it works exactly as you described :-)

674 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:40:31pm

re: #666 Syrah

It is history repeating itself. The Crusades would have been more effective had the Christian alliances not fallen into infighting. Then, like now, the muslims were thrilled to see such. But this is not enough for me to throw aside my moral compass, because naturally your enemy will enjoy seeing you duped by opportunists. If nazi/fascists want to fight the islamifestation of europe- let them do it by themselves. They will find no friend in me.

675 stvip  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:40:44pm

The only thing I regret about how Vlaams Belang has been reviewed at LGF is that a wonderful opportunity has been forlorn - evidence could've been gained silently, then we could've invited DeWinter to an interview. With all the damning quotations from him and other evidence at hand, a delightful grilling would ensue. Not letting him off the hook with mumbled distractions (Arafat would stop interviews, sometimes confiscate tapes, when that would happen to him). I'd love to ask him "so, you're not against the Jews in any way?", wait for him to deny it vehemently, let him extol Israel and Judaism, then ask "what about Ethiopian Jews? Yemenite Jews? Would you mind if they were a significant minority in Belgium? Would you mind if your daughter married one?". Fun and educational.

676 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:41:01pm

re: #550 mama wingerWhen a whole people lose their Religion, their faith, hope and love turns into pessimism, despair, and hate.

677 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:41:09pm

Also note you can see a picture of Karel Dillen at the VB site here, in the sidebar in front of a sign that I think reads "our folk first".

678 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:42:59pm

re: #675 stvip

By then the stain would be tattooed on.

679 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:43:30pm

re: #670 Thanos

"the ferrymen of the clouds88" is that a typo or a code phrase for Hitler?

680 mondoreb  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:44:38pm

re: #632 BabbaZee

thats one bad MFer hidin' under that folksy Burl Ives tune kinda name

No doubt.

...and I liked Burl Ives

681 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:45:21pm
682 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:45:43pm

re: #679 Truumax

re: #670 Thanos

"the ferrymen of the clouds88" is that a typo or a code phrase for Hitler?

It's from a neo-nazi site, and it's a footnote, I noted that also since 88 is code for hitler's birthday or something between neo-nazi's. I suggest you hit the PDF, that particular quote is very near to the end of it.

683 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:46:30pm

re: #669 hazzyday

The nazi collaboration issue seems to be just a red herring. It looks like the collaborators where pardoned already. How many of them are left anyway?

I find this rational naive and disturbing. Ask yourself- if there aren't any left- why put such an inflammatory position in your platform? It's there for a reason.

684 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:47:49pm

re: #676 Mich-again

Hey, hey, hey, don't call this atheist a hateful despairing pessimist! And I'm very much full of hope and love (it's just the faith thing I have a problem with, but hey, two out of three ain't bad).

685 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:48:06pm

re: #670 Thanos

{Bussi} if your spouse allows ;-)

686 neocon hippie  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:48:06pm

A couple points before I run off to celebrate Halloween in San Franfreako at a concert in a scuzzy part of town with some other music freaks, all left-leaning:

I know of Brazilian Neocon from another list and I believe he is sincere, if perhaps incorrect on some points.

The Nazi label may be too strong to use for VB or SD as a whole, but there's no doubt that key figures have swam in the same stream, and that they are getting huge support from the same stream. There's also no doubt that the underlying ideology is a race-based nationalism, rather than the classical liberalism most lizards favor. There is no way I would support these groups unless it was an 11:55 pm backs against the wall situation, and we're nowhere near there.

I have gotten a lot of value from Fjordman's essays, and will continue to read them. His argumentation against the criticisms of SD were very weak however. Had he rebutted any of the points in Truumax's research in a rational basis rather than attacking the source of the information, he would have been a lot more convincing.

Happy Halloween y'all!

687 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:48:44pm

re: #682 Thanos

actually, "H" is the 8'th letter of the alphabet. 88 means "HH", short for "Heil Hitler"

688 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:48:54pm

re: #679 Truumax

88 notes on a piano. Black and white keys?

689 Thanos  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:49:11pm

re: #685 zuckerlilly

re: #670 Thanos

{Bussi} if your spouse allows ;-)


She doesn't but then she's upstairs :)

690 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:52:52pm

re: #684 Truumax

."..and the greatest of these is love." Theres a reason Paul said that.

691 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:53:06pm

OK- the Freddy Jackson one is freaky.

692 Stogiechomper  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:53:14pm

re: #22 Ward Cleaver

re: #16 meMarc


"Political Cesspool" has had some interesting guest including Pat Buchanan, and Gary Pucket of the Union Gap.

Wow, Gary Puckett? I liked his stuff when I was a kid.

Now he can rewite their song, "Willpower (it's now or never)", and change it to "White Power (it's now or never)".

I loved the Union Gap too. They also sang "Young Girl" and "Woman." They were genuinely good. Too bad.

693 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:53:36pm

Ya know, this "if you don't accept a few white supremacists for the good of the cause, you hate Europe" is getting very, very, very, old.

To those Euro's on this board, I can tell you, we are all Americans, yes. But we have a great love for the countries are ancestors came from.

Be it England, Ireland, Italy, Germany, Spain, Poland, etc. Immigrants moved from Europe and started their own enclaves when they got here.
They still exist and the bonds are still there.
The idea we hate Europe is foolish.
Yes a few do, but I think that has more to do with the amount of hatred of the US we see publicized on the news all the time.
And we all know who screwed up the media is.
But to write of such concerns as hating Europe is counter productive.

694 zuckerlilly  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:53:47pm

re: #689 Thanos

re: #685 zuckerlilly


re: #670 Thanos

{Bussi} if your spouse allows ;-)


She doesn't but then she's upstairs :)

;-) good night Thanos, good night BabbaZee, good night all.

695 jeppo[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:54:05pm
696 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:56:04pm

re: #691 Sharmuta

Wrong thread- sorry! lol

697 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:57:24pm

re: #649 Pvt Bin Jammin

It hurts to remember what it was like and to see what is now is like, while so many of us who were born right before, during and after WWII see the Europe that Americans helped fight for evolves into both Eurabia and also the equivalent of collaborators with the neo-nazis, who learned at the feet on the still-living nazis who in turn admired and learned from *itler (may his name and memory be obliterated) and his Storm Troopers...

Re the Holocaust? As I have said many times, there were Jewish lives saved by Righteous Christians who often gave theirs for their courage and decency..and Israel and the Jews remember, and I will never forget that in the very worst years of hell in Europe there were those who cared so much.

There have been, thank G-d, reunions of those who risked their lives to save Jews be reunited here, and in Israel, where they come to visit as honored guests.

698 stvip  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:57:58pm

re: #688 Mich-again

88 notes on a piano. Black and white keys?

It's worse than that - the black keys are higher than the white ones! Fjordman was right about everything: you can clearly see the progression of the oppression of the European White race - from the early harpsichords and clavichords, where the colours were reversed, to the more modern piano with the familiar colour scheme, indoctrinating European White/Prussian Blue in the American theory of Weak European Genes.

699 JHW  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 7:58:57pm

re: #695 jeppo

Sincere question; How hard is it to form a new party in Belgium?

700 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:00:45pm

re: #695 jeppo

Yeah, sure.

If I was forced to vote between either the Sweden Democrats or the Social Democrats (largest left-wing party in Sweden), I'd vote for the Social Democrats in a heartbeat.

Of course, after that, I would have to beat myself in the face with a hammer to make myself forget that I voted for the god damned worthless moronic Social Democrats, but, you know... I still wouldn't rather vote for the Sweden Democrats.

701 Stogiechomper  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:01:06pm

re: #37 Charles

re: #16 meMarc


"Political Cesspool" has had some interesting guest including Pat Buchanan, and Gary Pucket of the Union Gap.

Gary Puckett also wrote the extremely creepy "Young Girl," a paean to pedophilia.

Naaah, I never interpreted "Young Girl" that way. The words say the girl, who is obviously well developed physically, "with all the charms of a woman...you made a secret of your youth." The singer is telling her to go away, that he can't love her. Sounds to me like he was doing the responsible thing.

702 USBeast  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:02:45pm

re: #652 Thanos

They complain of 500,000 Turks and Kurds (who are by no means allied) in their country of 10,000 million Flemish.

Yes, their culture is under assault as ours is, but they pick a stupid strategy, that of race, to defend it. That's fighting on the enemie's turf of choice, confined to using the tactics of the enemy. They don't want a solution, they want the problem because it furthers the cause they've had since 1840 of an independent Flanders. That's their goal, everything else is the colors of the day.

"10,000 million Flemish" That's a lot of Flems. Are you sure of your statistics?

I didn't say a word about Flanders and you're right, racism is always a stupid strategy. This war is not now nor ever has been about race. This is a conflict of cultures.

The problem confronting those in Europe and America opposed to Islamification, Fjordman included, is that there are always going to be those who equate culture with race. It would be nice if we could educate them all, but that would probably take a couple of generations and, in the mean time there is a cultural war to win.

Let's fight, and win, that war.

703 Syrah  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:04:01pm

re: #695 jeppo

Who would you advise the 800,000 people who voted for the Vlaams Belang in June 2007 to vote for in the next election? The Liberal-Socialist-Christian Democrat troika of dhimmitude, perhaps?

Pim Fortuyn had a solution to that problem.

He formed his own party. (Lijst Pim Fortuyn)

Sometimes you have to do that.

What must be done along with that is to bar and expel anyone who has Fascist or Nazi views. It must be done ruthlessly.

704 PETN Sandwich  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:05:59pm

re: #625 Killgore Trout

re: #614 PETN Sandwich

Ugh, how many times does this have to be said. The VB uses a simplified styling on their lion.

re: #630 Thanos

Just to nail this down firmly, the flag the party VB has printed, and which is seen in massive numbers at their demonstrations has a particular shape in the crook at the tip of the tail. You can go to youtube right now, or the VB site, and you will see that particular flag predominant at their demonstrations. It's not like the flags you linked, though similar. It's stylized, and not the standard flag of folks just wishing indendence.

What is it, the alleged VB black lion simplified or stylized?

The links from Yank that Charles re-linked in #460 show three different versions of the black lion, both simplified of stylized.

Of the links I showed, the cycling scene alone, had three different styles (including the 'stinger'), both simplified of stylized.

Being 'unofficial' flemish flags they may be just whatever the producer makes. Now, the VB party logo flag on the other hand, is pretty darn uniform.

705 unclassifiable  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:06:15pm

There's a few things about America that come to mind that parallel this situation.

George Wallace

America above all else is a land of redemption. But it is not the empty-headed "please forgive me" type of indulgence. It requires proof of action.

George Wallace was a racist and a segregationist.

But George Wallace did no go to his grave that way.

Getting shot and paralyzed probably changed his appreciation of brutality and inevitably led him to change course (he became a born again Christian).

There are a lot of Afro-American politicians in present-day Alabama that got their career off of the ground because of the redeemed George Wallace.

This would be the type of redemption that the leaders of VB would have to demonstrate to win our trust.

706 Straitcircle  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:06:34pm

There is no evidence to suggest a far-right or a far-left "entity" is connected to “race theory.” It is actually a cultural construction.

707 jeppo[deleted]  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:07:03pm
708 The world of fuzziness  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:07:10pm

#681 taxfreekiller
gang finger war fare
post all around,
words here,
words there,
where to turn,
inward toward
the problem
forced there by
the fingers that
said to much too also
if you do not want a
fight to the death
some other way
must be left open

Indeed, taxfreekiller. Thank you and ... I hope they hear you...

709 Timbre  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:07:28pm

David Duke and his ilk can't seem to realize their murderous and barbaric gig ended on April 30, 1945. It's too bad Ike, Patton, Bradley, Montgomery, and a few million more brave ones can't come back to 2007 and remind them of this fact.

710 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:09:09pm

re: #695 jeppo

Who would you advise the 800,000 people who voted for the Vlaams Belang in June 2007 to vote for in the next election? The Liberal-Socialist-Christian Democrat troika of dhimmitude, perhaps?

You identify an interesting contrast and thats important.

Americans choose between two candidates who try their best to claim the middle ground. Europe on the other hand selects from three or more candidates so the theory of Divide and Conquer rules elections.

711 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:09:56pm

re: #698 stvip

Oh that was nice. Ha.

712 Stogiechomper  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:12:15pm

I know the name "Jared Taylor." He wrote a pretty good book called "Paved With Good Intentions." Then he went downhill, starting "American Renaissance" newsletter which is very "racialist" in its tone and content. I once read one of them where the editors conducted a poll on "what man has done the most for the white race" and Adolf Hitler came in first.

713 J.S.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:12:21pm

re: #675 stvip

But I think Dewinter is too slick for that...If you listened to that first interview (not the Cesspool interview -- Dewinter's mask dropped with the Cesspool boys), Dewinter repeated all the Politically Correct "talking points." So, the interviewer asked Dewinter about 1991 and a "Flanders for the Flemish" slogan and promoting a "White Europe." Dewinter's response: he chuckles and states (I'm not directly quoting here), "why I'm a cultural nationalist -- I'm not an ethnic nationalist. It's not the color of your skin, but your values...blah, blah, blah." Then Dewinter went on to say, "Muslims - yes; Islam - no." The guy is slippery. Personally, I don't trust him...(the equivalent of a used car salesman).

714 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:17:32pm

re: #695 jeppo

Well if you jump on that train, all 800,000 of you, what is your plan to jump off?
Once you give these folks that much power, how do you plan on taking it back?

715 J.S.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:20:08pm

re: #710 Mich-again

I agree -- European politics and the forming of political parties is much different from North America. Most have some form of proportional representation (not "first-past-the-post"). Forming a new party isn't all that difficult...they sprout like mushrooms. I recall once hearing about the number of bizarro parties in Britain...one "party" consisted of a naked guy wearing a bird cage on top of his head. They were joke parties. (I don't know if that has changed or not), but it's not as if you have two parties (right vs left) from which to choose. There are often a half dozen or more.

716 EE  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:20:15pm

In the American system of general elections, the major candidates -- the two major party candidates -- woo the voters in the middle of the political spectrum.

re: #695 jeppo

Who would you advise the 800,000 people who voted for the Vlaams Belang in June 2007 to vote for in the next election? The Liberal-Socialist-Christian Democrat troika of dhimmitude, perhaps?

Pity that in some elections in Europe the real or imagined choice is only between supporters of one type of fascism or supporters of another type of fascism. Will it be the fascism of the crescent, or the fascism of the swastika -- take your choice. Where did sanity go; where is it hiding?

717 Syrah  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:21:30pm

re: #707 jeppo

#699 JHW

I would think it would be fairly easy to form a new party, but a lot harder to attract votes. As the VB has grown over the years, it has moderated itself, and seems likely to further moderate as it grows in popularity.

But if anyone has a better suggestion than voting for the VB, I'm still waiting for it.

Another alternative is to take over an existing party. It is really easy to do. All that is required is that some dedicated activists with a point of view join a party and work from with in to change the party's platform and goals.

It takes time, much more time than starting another party.

In the US, third party candidates end up losing because of our winner take all system. European nations are not all Winner take all. Many are based on a percentage system. I don't know how it works exactly in Belgium or the Netherlands, but my guess i the percentage system.

Attracting votes under a new party name and structure may not be as hard as is feared. There is backlash brewing against the Islamistion of Europe. It would be a real shame if the only party's that were campaigning on that concern were throw-back Fascist and Nazi trogs.

718 Highrise  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:25:47pm

re: #644 Sharmuta

re: #634 Brazilian Neocon

The party platform grants full amnesty to nazi collaborators.

The jury is out for you because you want them to be.

And your little ad hominem talking points are weak. Hasn't she updated them for you yet?


It's really getting old that people refuse to look at the party platform. Perhaps we need to repost it when people keep arguing for these jokers.

It's much easier to tar and feather you for being mean than it is for them to answer why they are arguing for them. If they don't want to answer to the party platform, then they shouldn't frankly be arguing /boggle

719 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:27:38pm

re: #714 hous bin pharteen

There are even bigger questions than that.

Their main concern is Flemish independence. Everything else is a means to that end. So what do you know about their other policies? How do they intend to govern a sovereign Flanders? How is their policital trackrecord, and can you trust their competence in issues not related to the Flanders thing?

Their immigration policies will take a long time to implement, unless they go straight to mass deportations. During this long time period, what will they turn the country into? Or do you think mass deportations are a good, or even humane, idea?

By legitimising the Vlaams Belang, how do you think that will affect nationalist parties in other european countries? Do you think it's responsible to accept xenophobic nationalism into the political mainstream?

These are just some of the really serious issues, and they came from the top of my head. My point is: If you are worried about islam destroying Europe, do you really think it's a good idea to vote another potential destroyer into power to fight islam?

720 a.k.a. Will  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:28:01pm

re: #370 jeppo

Why do so many conservative writers and bloggers (our bosom buddies only a week or so ago) continue to support the VB? Not to mention the nearly one million Belgians who voted for them in the June 2007 elections.

It's because they are the only political party in Belgium (and one of the very few in Europe) that are pro-American, pro-Israeli, pro-free enterprise, anti-EU, anti-Islamist, anti-immigration and anti-abortion. In other words they are conservatives.

The rest of the Belgian political spectrum ranges from socialist-lite to crypto-communist to proto-dhimmi. For all the diligent research you fine folks have done on the VB, how about focusing on some other political options that anti-jihadist Belgians might explore. Good luck with that, there are none.

The Vlaams Belang , warts and all, are the last line of defense between a friendly, Western, Judeo-Christian ally and the coming Islamic Republic of al-Belgium. And that's why they deserve the support of conservative anti-jihadists everywhere.

I've generally stayed out of this discussion and so far take no side, primarily because, though I don't know enough about politics in Belgium to assess what you say here, I've suspected that the situation well might be as you describe it. If these less than pristine parties are the only ones which will speak out against the Islamization (?) of Europe, and against continuing high levels of immigration, then the voters who actually agree with most who post at LGF on these issues have no where else to go. And that's how it seems in most European nations, with maybe the exception of France if Sarkozy is able to live up to expectations.

All sorts of unsavory groups (mostly very small) exist in the US, but since we have two dominant parties, those groups mostly sit out the political process, or attach themselves to whichever of the two parties they find the most in common with, or the least to object to. I think they mostly keep a low profile and simply follow the strategy of voting for the candidates they most agree with, even though the agreements might be only a few.

For now, most Europeans seem to have two choices: grin and bear it, or align themselves with a right of center party that has some past or present affiliation with European far right objectives. Not perfect choices, but I think we'll continue seeing many Europeans join with the less than pristine parties until some of the more mainstream parties began to represent their views of these issues.

And I think the Europeans will find some way to address the issues, with or without the agreement of those in the US with similar goals.

721 hazzyday  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:32:34pm

re: #683 Sharmuta


I'll have to go back and read it but it looked like to me that the national government pardoned them and then this was an issue that popped up later.

722 J.S.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:32:58pm

re: #717 Syrah

Exactly. I recall people actually doing this in Canada. (Here it is "first-past the-post system, as it is the U.S.) But, nonetheless, there was a sudden swing towards the Right, and as I recall, a number of people (whom I believed to be dedicated left-wingers) switched sides. I asked them how could they do this? How could you sacrifice your values? Where are your principles? Their answer was -- "O no! We have no intention whatsoever of sacrificing our principles -- it's not us who will change; it's the party." In other words, they'd join en masse and on the surface claim "We're conservatives now!" but not really...more in name only.

723 J.S.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:36:08pm

re: #719 Truumax

I seriously wonder if Vlaams Belang has any intentions of ever being anything other than an opposition party...All the yak about "when we come into power...blah, blah" -- heh, nonsense. They're like the Quebec separatist parties.

724 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:38:20pm

re: #716 EE

And our Constitution even has secondary containment against Johnny-Come-Lately 3rd party candidates for President. If no one gets a majority (270) electoral votes, then the House of Representatives picks the President. So while a 3rd party Presidential candidate may definitely affect an election, they won't get 270 electoral votes, and thus all they will do is hurt the party they are trying to reform and help their common foe.

And that is why Ron Paul says he will not run as a 3rd Party candidate. Nope, he knows the game is all about winning the State primaries. And he has positioned himself to appeal to 20% of the people which just might be enough to win primaries where there are 6 candidates.

Hang around and watch. This could get very interesting.

725 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:39:00pm

re: #720 a.k.a. Will

There is some validity to this, but it's not really true. Don't make the mistake of thinking that all non-racist parties in Europe are leftists or multiculturalists.

Leftist from an american perspective? Yeah, most of them. But leftist as in socialist/marxist/communist? Only about half. The rest are closer to what you would probably view as centrist.

726 Syrah  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:39:03pm

re: #722 J.S.

re: #717 Syrah

Exactly. I recall people actually doing this in Canada. (Here it is "first-past the-post system, as it is the U.S.) But, nonetheless, there was a sudden swing towards the Right, and as I recall, a number of people (whom I believed to be dedicated left-wingers) switched sides. I asked them how could they do this? How could you sacrifice your values? Where are your principles? Their answer was -- "O no! We have no intention whatsoever of sacrificing our principles -- it's not us who will change; it's the party." In other words, they'd join en masse and on the surface claim "We're conservatives now!" but not really...more in name only.

It could work.

It could fail.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

European nations that have proportional representation schemes really don't need to go through all the arduous and time consuming work of changing a party from with. Pim Fortuyn and his LPF was doing very well in the polls right up to the day he was assassinated for doing too well in the polls.

727 a.k.a. Will  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:44:05pm

#646 jeppo

Duke and Stormfront are fringe extremists at the margins of society. The Vlaams Belang is said to be the largest single political party in Belgium, garnering nearly a million votes in a nation one-thirtieth the size of the US. So let me ask again: If not the VB, who should conservative anti-jihadist Belgians cast their ballots for? If you can't answer that simple question, don't blame VB voters for supporting the only alternative to the Islamization of their homeland.


I agree the participants should answer that question: " If not the VB, who should conservative anti-jihadist Belgians cast their ballots for? If you can't answer that simple question, don't blame VB voters for supporting the only alternative to the Islamization of their homeland."

728 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:44:11pm

re: #725 Truumax

I'm guessing European people are pretty much like American people. Except we can dance better. Duh.

729 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:47:25pm

re: #719 Truumax

I am just wondering how the Belgians who support VB would feel if their next door neighbor had their own VB style party gaining power?

This argument is falling on deaf ears anyway.
Their minds are made up. They have "no other choice".
The consequences will be theirs.

730 a.k.a. Will  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:48:45pm
#725 Truumax 10/31/07 8:39:00 pm reply quote report 0

re: #720 a.k.a. Will

There is some validity to this, but it's not really true. Don't make the mistake of thinking that all non-racist parties in Europe are leftists or multiculturalists.

But there might not be decades left for the Europeans to wait for the pure as the driven snow party to represent their views. What does a voter in Belgium do now to express their opposition to the Islamization of Europe and continued high immigration from Muslim nations?

What do voters in other parts of Europe do? Maybe those in France and Switzerland have representation now.

731 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:49:56pm

Shameful, but true.

And now it's nap time for this lizard. Peace out folks!

//And it's true, I can't dance

732 bonz  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:50:48pm

Freedom and Democracy is a relatively new concept in Europe. The default is command of the streets. Lose it, and pack your bags...if you live.

an award An award given to French President Francois Mitterand by the Vichy govt. The order of the Francisque

cute kid
the Pope

733 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:51:38pm

...of course if they are having this much trouble convincing a bunch of hard core anti-jihadis like LGF, imagine how much easier it is going to be to convince the rest of the folks who think the jihad is no big deal...

734 JHW  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 8:58:22pm

Most political parties in democracies , as far as I can see, move with glacial slowness. Eventually I believe the Islamists are going to be so troubling to the average man in the street that critical mass alone will finally force the mainstream parties to stop pretending there is no problem. This doesn`t particularly mean that voters will choose extremist type parties. The radical Islamists are their own worst enemies and their arrogance will eventually be their undoing.

I hang out a bit on some UK and Commonwealth military boards and there is a growing recognition that the mainstream parties aren`t up to the task yet, but still the watchword is "Hell no, we wont go" the BNP route. The main political parties will eventually have to wake up out of their hibernation when they are forced to do so in the normal competition for votes. I really dont share the "Eurabia is Doomed" crap, the jihadis agenda will guarantee that they will eventually arouse a mainstream opposition. But I dont pretend to know much about European politics.

735 Truumax  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 9:01:10pm

re: #734 JHW

Actually, I think that asessment is pretty much on point. Another factor is that the establishment in Europe like being the establishment. If the fringe parties gain too much support from this issue, the mainstream parties will pick it up simply to stay in power.

So yeah, that's pretty much what I think will happen too.

736 Moody Leo  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 9:03:59pm

AAAHHH, David Duke. One of the few times I voted Democrat in an election. How ironic that the two gubernatorial runners were in jail at same time later(David Duke and Edwin Edwards) I thought we would never live that down until we got Mrs Blanco. Where's the brown paper bag when you need it.

737 hous bin pharteen  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 9:05:31pm

re: #734 JHW

I certainly hope so.
I happen to like Europe.
I would prefer it not under Islamofascists, but also without us having to go back and blow the crap out of the place to get rid of neo-Nazi fascists after the fact.

These type folks are not the type to relinquish power once they get it.
At least not willingly.
But what the hell do I know, I am just a stoopid American.

738 J.S.  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 9:05:33pm

hmmm...One last note -- the Vlaams Belang (some poster claimed it's the largest single party in Belgium -- I believe V. Belang claims to be one of the largest, but not "the largest"), anywho, the V. Belang cannot form any coalition with the governing parties (usually in European politics no single party has a sufficient number of seats -- a majority -- which would enable the Party to rule outright -- so they must form coalitions. usually the Leftist parties try to form a coalition with like-minded parties, like the Greens, etc.) Anyway -- this would not be possible with the Vlaams Belang Party because there's what's called in Belgium the Cordon Sanitaire...this ruling prohibits any (potentially) ruling political party from striking up any alliance or allegiance with Vlaams Belang. it's verboten! Thus V. Belang (due to the Cordon Sanitaire) will forever be relegated to a marginal status (never ruling). (I suspect this may be yet another reason why they don't give a rat's a--s about who they link up with or about "their image" -- nazis, neo-nazis, who cares? it just means more votes.)

739 hazzyday  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 9:06:35pm

[Link: www.publiceye.org...]

This is an interesting article on the amnesty for collaboration efforts of VB.

740 PETN Sandwich  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 9:19:38pm

re: #739 hazzyday

[Link: www.publiceye.org...]

This is an interesting article on the amnesty for collaboration efforts of VB.

Nothing personnel, but that link you posted is every bit as filthy as a nazi cesspool.

741 a.k.a. Will  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 9:22:45pm

After all is said and done on this thread, and after this subject dies down at LGF, I'll still be wondering: What should/will the Europeans who oppose the Islamization of Europe, and continual high immigration from Muslim nations, what should/will those voters do if no mainstream party begins to represent their views?

742 PETN Sandwich  Wed, Oct 31, 2007 9:26:05pm

re: #741 a.k.a. Will

After all is said and done on this thread, and after this subject dies down at LGF, I'll still be wondering: What should/will the Europeans who oppose the Islamization of Europe, and continual high immigration from Muslim nations, what should/will those voters do if no mainstream party begins to represent their views?


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